# Trans-Ocean vs Coastal.. discussion



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Folks.. the "IP yachts is dead" thread has drifted into the title territory.. some good discussion and exchanges so I'm moving those posts into this thread... carry on. Cheers Ron (Faster) 


Dave you seemed OK to go on a 1500+m daysail with me and my spade rudder a few years back:laugh
Was it because just half of it was out of helicopter range?:laugh

This has gotten to be a mine bigger than yours pissing contest. Reality is IP makes(made) fine boats..Hope they continue to do so. Everyone has their list as to what they want/refuse to have on their boat. Although a vanishing small percentage of boats blue water cruise ( including IPs ) they ticked a lot of the right boxes for some people. That number has gotten smaller. This thread remains speculative as to their ability to remain afloat. (Pun intended). Shame is the US cruising sailboat market continues to shrink. H buys M. Different H buys I. PSC makes a rare new hull. Only good news is new offerings from H and S. Although suspect both their bottom lines is floated on motorboats and will be for the indefinite future.
Perhaps I tune in same time same channel if something new breaks. Otherwise bye bye.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

*Re: Island Packet Closing Doors?*



Lazerbrains said:


> Even in the trades, it is a constant 20kts wind or better. 28 days of constant sailing in that is hard on a boat and stuff breaks and chafes and leaks on the best found boats. It's much more stress than the average boat goes through with a once-a-week, 6 hour daysail in 10kt winds.
> 
> Panama to Grenada is largely a coastal sail, never far from shore. It is not a trans-oceanic passage by any stretch of the imagination.


I'm beginning to think you don't have much experience in some of what you talk about. Yes, that stretch is never far from shore, although you would probably be killed if you approached much of that shore, but it is straight into 25-30kt winds, straight into a contrary 2kt current, and straight into 2-4M steep waves with 5-7sec intervals. For 1,000nm.

There is a very good reason that hundreds of boats each year do the downwind, down current, round long period waves through the South Pacific, while virtually nobody goes east from Panama.

I'll bet more gear is broken getting to Panama than getting to Fiji. At least that was the case when I followed the world ARC in 2011. I was in Panama when they arrived from St. Lucie and almost every single boat was frantically looking for riggers, welders, sail makers, etc. Conversely, almost all the blogs from the Panama to Marquasies described pretty easy sailing with few minor gear issues.

It has nothing at all to do with how close the shore is. Rounding Cape Horn is a couple of day sails a few miles off shore, after all...

Mark


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

It's really the luck of the draw and the skippers skills set. Sailing to Panama or sailing to the South Pacific can be easy or hard. The advantage of sailing down the Colombian coast is that you can often get reasonable weather predictions and of course the sailing is a few days not a few weeks. The seas are different and the Caribbean in this area is known for shorter wave patterns than the Pacific. Those that think sailing the Pacific is steady 20 knot winds probably have not sailed it. Yes there are days you will get those conditions but certainly not for the whole crossing, in fact it's quite variable. By the way the world ARC went thru the San Blas while we were there and it doesn't surprise me they were getting lots fixed when you saw them in Panama, some of them were really lacking experience and we're bouncing off reefs.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

*Re: Island Packet Closing Doors?*



outbound said:


> Dave you seemed OK to go on a 1500+m daysail with me and my spade rudder a few years back:laugh
> Was it because just half of it was out of helicopter range?


Sure - I sail boats with spade rudders and partial skeg rudders over oceans all the time.

All the hype about full keels v. fin keels is ill informed. People simply don't understand the issues. Everyone thinks he or she is an engineer after reading a few magazine articles and a book. If you have enough faith in professionals to drive across a bridge you should believe us when we tell you that a fin keel is a good thing.

I'm not poking at you, outbound, at all. I see the research and study you have put in, as have others like Jeff_H, and most importantly the occasional "I don't know" when, well, you don't. That's well educated, open-minded behavior.

EVERY boat, like every commercial ship and warship is a series of compromises. Some compromises are good choices and some are not.

On the newer three digit IPs the Full Foil Keel(R) provides very shallow draft boats. For many cruisers, especially those on the US East Coast, that is a very attractive and desirable characteristic. The trade-off is that pointing under sail is not as good as it could otherwise be (and is on the older two-digit boats). Most cruisers can't or won't tune the rigs on their cutters (like IPs) to point well either.

On the other hand, passagemaking is a small portion of the time we spend aboard for most cruisers. IP is an extremely comfortable boat. I like sailing fast but at some point there is some merit to saying that you are okay with taking 10 or 15 or 20 percent longer to get somewhere as long as you don't spend all that extra time getting pounded by weather. It all becomes very stochastic.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

I reread that earlier post sailing from Panama to Grenada. I don't think anyone sails this. It's very common to go from Panama to Cartegena but after that you wait for no wind or very little wind and motor to maybe Santa Marta. Some real keeners with a great upwind boat and little common sense and perfect SSE windsmight sail from there across the Caribbean and if lucky might be able to tack back after several days and make Grenada but as was pointed out you are fighting a strong adverse current. We will go around clockwise and even then it's a pain in some areas.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

*Re: Island Packet Closing Doors?*



robert sailor said:


> I reread that earlier post sailing from Panama to Grenada. I don't think anyone sails this. It's very common to go from Panama to Cartegena but after that you wait for no wind or very little wind and motor to maybe Santa Marta. Some real keeners with a great upwind boat and little common sense and perfect SSE windsmight sail from there across the Caribbean and if lucky might be able to tack back after several days and make Grenada but as was pointed out you are fighting a strong adverse current. We will go around clockwise and even then it's a pain in some areas.


I'm still laughing at that Panama to Grenada quote... but C'est la vie.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

*Re: Island Packet Closing Doors?*



robert sailor said:


> I reread that earlier post sailing from Panama to Grenada. I don't think anyone sails this. It's very common to go from Panama to Cartegena but after that you wait for no wind or very little wind and motor to maybe Santa Marta. Some real keeners with a great upwind boat and little common sense and perfect SSE windsmight sail from there across the Caribbean and if lucky might be able to tack back after several days and make Grenada but as was pointed out you are fighting a strong adverse current. We will go around clockwise and even then it's a pain in some areas.


It's an identical situation as to what we have here in Southern CA when going up the coast. Most motorsail it, harbor hopping. It's not difficult to do in and of itself, although it is a slog. It can be sailed, however, by sailing west and then cutting up NE.

As was pointed out before, the rumbline is rarely the best way to get there.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Yes I am very aware of the Baja bash but it's not the same as going from Panama to Grenada. On the Baja Bash you have places you can tuck in and get a rest and the winds in that area are generally much lighter than off Colombia. I've been down that coast 4 times so I have a reasonable sense about the area. The two trips are similar in a way until you get to the last place to anchor in Colombia and then it's open water to Aruba and east to Grenada. The only coast to go up is Venezuela and these days no one with any common sense would choose to do that.There is the odd boat that has done the trip but you would want really large fuel tanks,as little wind as possible,,more time than you know what to do with and no fillings in your teeth.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

*Re: Island Packet Closing Doors?*

Would it not be possible to point from Panama towards, say, Jamaica, then down towards Grenada?


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Yes you could head towards Jamaica but trying to make Grenada from there you'd need to get real lucky as your right in the teeth of wind and current most days, you would want more easting and that's always the challenge. You pretty much have to make your way up to the BVI to have a decent sail to Grenada. I am new to this area so there are others who know it much better than I do and they might chime in. I'm a west coast boy so I actually know more about your neck of the woods than the Caribbean. We will have only been here a year so still lots to learn.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

*Re: Island Packet Closing Doors?*

Last summer we went from Panama to US east coast via the windward passage (ie Jamaica). This route is very tight to the wind, up current and seas until through the windward passage. Not a fun trip, and we picked the best weather window of the year. Heading to Grenada from there is essentially the thorny path from Mayaguana down.

Every year we meet the West coast boats that have come through the canal with Caribbean dreaming in mind, and every year we meet them again after they have sailed into the Caribbean a bit. Almost all of them are shaken and many are hunkered down in ports only willing to venture further on rare calm weather windows (pretty much motoring). Anyone who thinks sailing the Caribbean is easy coastal sailing either has no experience, or has only chartered the BVI's.

Every year we have friends who have been cruising the Caribbean for years that decide to do the South Pacific. Uniformly, their reports are how much easier the sailing conditions are - particularly the seas.

Yes, "trans-oceanic" passages can be longer in duration, but "trans-ocean" does not equate to more difficulty or challenge.

Once one is coastal, the Caribbean is much easier than many other places - little tide, lots of anchoring choice, shallower waters, etc.

Mark


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Every area can be challenging at times. We spent a couple of years in the Med and it can blow like hell in some places with a very short steep sea, other times it's a motor boat ride. There have been many boats come to their grief in that area. Caribbean is a bit of a mixed bag, wind wards and leewards are nothing challenging in my mind, people hunker down in places waiting for winds below 20 knots before moving and that's OK. The western side has a few more challenges and I can see heading north can keep you entertained but it has very good weather reporting so as long as one isn't in a hurry, should be fine. The South Pacific is many different things to different people. Generally it's decent sailing but the trades are not steady as they are in the Caribbean. You get trade winds for 5 or 6 days and a little low slips down from the Antarctic skims by NZ and you can feel the effects half way thru the SP unsettled weather for a day or two and the trades kick back in, repeat every 10 days or so. Had the strongest winds I have ever sailed in the SP, well I was moving at 7 knots with no sails so maybe I wasn't sailing.. North Pacific is much more challenging and that area has produced the roughest rides I have ever had in my sailing life. Easiest sail I have ever had was crossing the Atlantic, yup there were huge squalls bigger than I have ever seen and rain that could fill a bucket in 5 minutes, lighting storms and some strong winds in squalls that took almost 2 hours to sail through, that was an eye opener but it was still the easiest passage I have ever done. So I don't know, I guess I wouldn't rate the Caribbean as a tough place to sail, it's been pretty easy so far but poor planning might make you pay a price..just like anywhere else.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

I reread your note about sailors coming in from the west coast. Ok I'll buy into that. First of all the majority of those folks sail/motor sail from Mexico. They got to Mexico from points on the west coast that they sailed/motor sailed from. As long as you stay close to the coast you can harbour hop all the way from Canada and never see high winds or big seas. So it makes perfect sense that when they get through the canal they have a bit of an eye opener when the start sailing in the Caribbean. I've already met folks that have done that trip and they have been hanging out in the Belize area for over 10 years, so yes I agree with you on that point. But you are talking about folks that don't have a lot of time experience even though they have a few miles in their back pocket.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

*Re: Island Packet Closing Doors?*



robert sailor said:


> I guess I wouldn't rate the Caribbean as a tough place to sail, it's been pretty easy so far but poor planning might make you pay a price..just like anywhere else.


You have only done the easy downhill part! And we are talking about Caribbean passages, not harbor hopping in a destination (that is not aimed at you - I understand you have been making passages there).

My point is that there is nothing inherently extraordinary about "transocean" sailing for most common cruising passages, and nothing inherently easy about "coastal" sailing when it is defined as less than 20 day passages and less than 500 miles offshore.

Unless one needs to define themselves and their boat choices by it, of course...

Mark


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

I certainly agree that we have done the easy parts, we have some more challenging parts coming up but I'll do my best to make it as comfortable as possible. Actually I prefer easy, and 95% of the Caribbean sailors seem to as well. When we were in the wind wards and leewards it was very hard to find someone there that had sailed the western Caribbean so I seem to have lots of company, lol. I had my roughest sail 100 miles off the Washington/Oregon Coast and even though it's just shy of 1000 miles to our first landfall it is considered coastal sailing so yes coastal sailing can be just as rough or rougher than offshore. As I said in an earlier post you have the advantage of better weather updates and often a port you can sneak into if a big change in weather is forecast when coastal sailing, when offshore you don't have that option. The long passages really do put a lot of wear and tear on your boat and gear as well as you, I actually don't like passages and never have, I sort of like the last day or two when all I can dream of is hamburgers and 8 hours of sleep.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Mark, I'll be picking your brain next year as we will probably head up the east coast from here at the end of the season and want to visit the part of America we haven't seen. Might be nice to head up to some of the local cruising grounds for the summer and return with the locals making their way to the Caribbean. There is a side of us that wants to head back to the SP but we had so much fun in Colombia and points north that we are reluctant to leave quite yet. How long have you been sailing down here?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Wow most impressive posts. Thanks folks. On several threads I've repeatedly said what's being attested to here. Sailing you deal with local weather and conditions. Doesn't matter if there's 50 or 1500 miles away from shore. The "grave yards" of any ocean are near shore. This is true off the Atlantic coast of France or between Nantucket and Falmouth. Generally true for both sides of any ocean. Interface of land systems and ocean systems with shallower depths and coast lines makes for more possible issues. 
Outside helicopter range you are stuck with the weather and no place to hide. Any weather predictions are only reliable for five days or less so on any passage it is what it is. Downloads from satphones or ssb allow some positioning but effect can be marginal depending on size of the system. You can only pick the season and the window for 5 d when leaving. Fetch of waves can be thousands of miles. You only have what you brought with you and totally dependent upon your skill set and that of your crew. So yes ocean sailing is another beast. But near shore sailing can be a beast as well. The few survival situations I've been in have been near shore. Within 100m of a coast. Perhaps this colors my judgment given my lack of transoceanic crossings. Wonder if this impression is congruent with yours? But even with my limited experience over the last 30+years but I know the following. 
Going to Bermuda is usually more stressful than going from there to eastern carribean. Once you get south of Bermuda issue is usually only getting your easting. So the hard part is usually getting through the stream and just south of Bermuda. The near shore part is the issue most times. 
Coming home is more benign regardless if you sail north of the islands to Florida and then up the coast or straight shot. 

At the end of the day once you leave sight of land, near shore or oceanic, only thing that's important is the very local weather. And being coastal is meaningless in terms of risk if no safe harbor is available. Think of the northern US pacific coast or being north of the islands with rages running or Portugal with easterlies.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

robert sailor said:


> Mark, I'll be picking your brain next year as we will probably head up the east coast from here at the end of the season and want to visit the part of America we haven't seen. Might be nice to head up to some of the local cruising grounds for the summer and return with the locals making their way to the Caribbean. There is a side of us that wants to head back to the SP but we had so much fun in Colombia and points north that we are reluctant to leave quite yet. How long have you been sailing down here?


Looks like we just missed each other down there and will be going in opposite directions again next year. We spent 5 years cruising South and Central America Caribbean, then headed back to the US east coast last summer for reasons that escape me now. We have been in the Bahamas since November, and will return to US in a couple of months for the summer. Then it is back down to the western Caribbean for us, since we greatly like it there. Most likely to Guatemala first to do a boat project or two.

BTW, if you need any boat work done, the Rio is a great place for it. You can ship literally anything in cheaply and with no duty or customs charges. You can hire non-technical skilled work like sanding, etc for $10/ day (you will be paying above the standard rate and they will be lining up for the work at this price), and they show up at 8am and work hard to 5pm with a half hour for lunch whether you are watching them or not. Almost all technical things can be done there for not much more cost. The woodworking is masterful and inexpensive. The Guatemalan sense of humor is sublime, and working with them is fun.

Most people whip through Colombia and San Blas for a couple of weeks on their way to the canal, or they travel through Belize and the Bay Islands similarly from the opposite direction. But this area becomes a whole different experience once one spends time in it. Besides the great comparatively empty and wild cruising grounds, the opportunity to experience a wide cultural and culinary diversity and some fantastic (and inexpensive) inland exploration and travel is much more unique and varied than most other places. The eastern Caribbean is positively boring and barren in this regard.

In this vein, it is also a good and inexpensive point for arranging more far flung touring trips like Peru, Bolivia, Argentina, etc.

After our second summer in Panama, we got tired of the come-to-Jesus lightning and heat and started putting the boat in a marina for a couple of months and doing land explorations of the countries we are in, as well as spending a month touring Peru. We haven't gotten enough of Colombia yet, so more travel there is in our plans.

Plus you can't help but pick up Spanish! Even I can get by now, and Michele just yacks away in it. If you don't know Spanish, Guatemala is full of immersion schools located in beautiful, cool, sunny, country locations. Spend 3-4 weeks in one and come out with a new language while exploring some of the pretty country and escaping the oppressive heat and boredom of the Rio Dulce.

You can spend years exploring the US east coast, and this forum is chock full of people who can give you all their secrets. We spent 18 years sailing the northeast, and two seasons traveling MA to FL. The only problem with this area are the seasons and weather, but those can also be used in your favor. New England is a short sweet season while the same months in the Chesapeake and South can be oppressive. However, this is opposite for the spring and fall months.

The ICW is full of fantastic places to visit that are out of the way for land people. The only problem with it for us is that it is the ICW. Traveling it drives us bonkers, although we love the little towns and wild areas. Kind of a tough decision, but we almost always choose now to take all offshore passages whenever we can. However, everyone should take 2-3 months exploring the NC-GA ICW once. There is nothing in the FL part worth staying inside for.

Feel free to pick my brain on anything else, but the pickings can be pretty slim there!

Mark


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## newt (Mar 15, 2008)

It was mentioned that we should all put down our computers, get out of our chairs and go sailing. I just want you to know that I tried that, but at a few miles out I could not get cell phone coverage anymore. What is a guy to do but come back into port?
(sailing with sheet to tiller)


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Robert/Mark- so far you guys are making this one of the most productive threads for newbies like me. Thank you both. Struggling with deciding how to play out the next few years. Choices determine if we get a pied a terre as we are selling the dirt dwelling.
Three main choices are most discussed:

Just continue to snow bird N.E. to/from Eastern carribean.

Go through canal to do South Pacific but wonder about getting home.

Leave eastern carribean to Azores to Majorca to eastern Med.

Taking into account prefer not having crew on the boat and we are a couple in our early sixties on a 46' boat what are the plus/minuses of each choice. Talking with friends seems this is not an uncommon dilemma as sailing days are numbered. Seems to come up whenever we socialize together.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

outbound said:


> Go through canal to do South Pacific but wonder about getting home.
> 
> Leave eastern carribean to Azores to Majorca to eastern Med.
> .


It depends on where your "exotic" is.

A practical point on the Pacific is if you don't like it you are stuffed. a loooong way home.

Europe is close, varied and you have the ability to do the Atlantic Circuit every year if you like. If you get bored the Caribbean and the USA isn't far from Europe by boat.
But once you go through Panama into the Pacific a multi year voyage.

Whatever you do enuse you go further than the Bahamas.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Been to the Bahamas twice on a sailboat. Once on way home from windwards. Once to bring a boat to man of war cay from Maine with stop in Miami. Was nice but both brief visits. Have 6 1/2' to think about but would want to do Abacos and hang in chicken harbor (G'town) again for awhile of down time. Wife enjoyed volleyball beach activities. Will go back to north sound in November (like sdr regardless of what Smackie says) and head south east. Haven't had time to explore that yet. So this coming winter planned. Question remains where to go from there? Seems your vote is Med. Is that right? What are the plus/ minuses. 
Your comment about S.P. seems spot on. Anyone have personal experience with float on/off shippers from Thailand?


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## ChristinaM (Aug 18, 2011)

outbound said:


> Have 6 1/2' to think about but would want to do Abacos and hang in chicken harbor (G'town) again for awhile of down time.


Hi fellow SDR'r 

We went thru the Bahamas last year on the way home with 6'1 draft. 6'6 shouldn't be a big problem as long as you can read tide tables. We stayed on the Exumas bank from Galliot Cut to Shroud Cay without touching anything. Send me a PM if you want the itinerary & stops, I just typed it up for another SDR'r with 6+' draft.

SE from BVIs is nice. Draft isn't an issue many spots other than St Martin lagoon. We made it to Martinique this year, focusing on the French Islands. I miss the bakeries & fresh produce already.

Long term, my vote is Med unless the visa timings will cause you too much grief. If it's not to your taste then head west from there after a year thru Panama and beyond with more passages under your belt to decide whether you'll slowly go nuts crossing the Pacific.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

OK, color me clueless, but by the context used, I know "SDR" isn't referring to software defined radio. All I could come up with that might touch at the context is San Diego Reprobate, but I doubt you both are from there. Smack might qualify though, and you did mention him...

So what does sdr mean?

Mark


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## ChristinaM (Aug 18, 2011)

colemj said:


> OK, color me clueless, but by the context used, I know "SDR" isn't referring to software defined radio. All I could come up with that might touch at the context is San Diego Reprobate, but I doubt you both are from there. Smack might qualify though, and you did mention him...
> 
> So what does sdr mean?
> 
> Mark


Salty Dawg Rally: Chesapeake -> BVIs rally in November for experienced sailors. I'm sitting at a bar on Water Island, USVI with 2 guys wearing SDR hats (and holding leashes for actual salty canines) right now  They also do a spring rally for the reverse route & some other educational/cruising events like seminars before the Annapolis Boat Show.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> Will go back to north sound in November (like sdr regardless of what Smackie says) and head south east.


Now out - are you STILL miffed about that???

It's not that I "don't like" the SDR. It's just that it was a pretty questionably run rally until I got involved. They seem to have gotten their crap together a bit more now. So good for them.

As a matter of fact, in the islands, you'll often hear it called the Smack Daddy Rally by the truly seasoned sailors. I'm flattered of course. I'm just glad I was there for them.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/vessels-lost-missing-danger/105421-rallies-gone-wrong.html


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Sailing east from Bahamas to the Virgins is common. Sailing southeast from Virgins to Trinidad or Grenada is common. Then downwind from Grenada to ABCs is doable. From ABC to Columbia is rather sporty but also downwind. Then over to Panama and other Central American stops is OK. The hard part is getting back east from Central America. 

Is hopping up to Yucatan Mexico and then northeast just north of Cuba to Fla Keys easy enough? Or further up the Mexican coast before heading east? Is there no easy way back east at all?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

smackdaddy said:


> Now out - are you STILL miffed about that???
> 
> It's not that I "don't like" the SDR. It's just that it was a pretty questionably run rally until I got involved. They seem to have gotten their crap together a bit more now. So good for them.
> 
> ...


Gee I'm in touch with a fair number of sdr-ers. Never heard it mentioned like that. Have heard "are you going with Bill and Linda again?" more than a few times. Or "Are you going to use Chris?. But "Smack Daddy" never. Guess we travel in different crowds. Still, the offer is open for you to crew. It would be fun. Enjoy butting heads and it might inform your posts.:devil


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

it might inform your posts.:devil


What fun would that be?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

outbound said:


> Three main choices are most discussed:
> 
> Just continue to snow bird N.E. to/from Eastern carribean.
> 
> ...


After our first winter in the Caribbean we went through a similar process (people asked us what our plans were - we thought the whole idea was not to have plans, but I diverge from the discussion!). I made a list of about seven alternatives from selling the boat to doing a circumnavigation. I gave June the choice and she chose rtw.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Mark there are two rallies.(IMHO)
The Caribbean 1500/ARC. Seems to have more Europeans. Uses Commanders. More formal. Leaves from Newport. Costs more and less perks attached.
The Salty Dawg. Leaves from Norfolk. More mom and pops. Uses Chris Parker. Less formal. Cruiser run. Costs less and more perks attached.
Both had one bad year in the recent times due to weather. Smackie made a big deal about it for the sdr's bad year not placing cognizance on fact any weather router or rally administration will get it wrong on rare occasion and both rallies place responsibility on the captain when to leave, how to prep the boat and who to take for crew.
Christina rightly points out its for experienced sailors. So the above should be obvious. We use(d) them because it's a bunch of really nice people and you get Chris along with some great deals for short money. Think that's the mindset of many. So the SDR seems more successful than the 1500 in recent years. Nobody I've ever talked to thinks being in a rally, any rally on land or water, takes any responsibility off you. That was the major contention I had with Smackie in my view. 

Real curious about easting from Central America. Is there any reasonable way to dot it? Not interested in getting beat up with a huge upwind slog but will put up with some. Not interested in being boarded by natives or having the boat stripped bare if we're not on it or God forbid we run aground. Wouldn't mind even going up to Texas and having some libations with SD then going down west coast of Florida.
Do people do that and then cut through the middle of Florida to go north?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Getting back to FL is easier than to the eastern Caribbean. Probably the most popular route is to hop up to Mexico or the Caymans and wait for good weather to jump in the stream. A weak or moderate cold front here can be good. Texas would take you way out of the way and put you in even more challenging conditions dealing with the gulf of Mexico winds, currents, oil rigs and traffic.

If you are interested in cruising South and central America, then just go and do it and worry about getting somewhere else from there later.

BTW, just got an email from friends who are in their 17th day crossing Mexico to Marqueses. They have averaged 8kts reaching in their Leopard 40 and describe the sailing as smooth and easy. Gin rummy, meals, movies, cleaning and organizing cupboards and pantries ( sailing had to be easy to be this bored), naps, etc.

Their trip two years ago from Panama to Florida beat them up so bad that they spent six months fixing the boat. Funny thing is that this trip took almost as much time as their Pacific crossing will.

They seem happier on this "transocean" trip.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Out - your description above of the SDR and our point of contention is not accurate in the least - but I've already addressed that _ad nauseum_ in the other thread.

You are right, however, that Texas is becoming quite a popular cruising destination if, for nothing else, to having a drinking contest with me.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

colemj said:


> .......
> 
> BTW, just got an email from friends who are in their 17th day crossing Mexico to Marqueses. They have averaged 8kts reaching in their Leopard 40 and describe the sailing as smooth and easy. Gin rummy, meals, movies, cleaning and organizing cupboards and pantries ( sailing had to be easy to be this bored), naps, etc.
> 
> ...


Mark.. both trips in the same boat?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Yes, same boat.

Mark


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> people asked us what our plans were - we thought the whole idea was not to have plans,


"We have no plans and are sticking to them"

How many times have I heard that from the deluded?

As soon as Killarney decided to go around the world thats a plan. Stuff happens. Its exciting.

But if there's no plan you can't achieve anything. Life becomes like a Forida retirement home a la Cacoon.

So 'Snow Birding' for a few years isn't a plan. Its first year, only, is...


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> "We have no plans and are sticking to them"
> 
> How many times have I heard that from the deluded?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I agree with this. I do agree that once some decision is made, then a plan has been put in action. But we "plan" to get to some cruising area, then we have no plans once there, other than to go somewhere else if/when we have enough of that area - and we don't know where that somewhere else will be, other than a vague list of possibilities.

For some places like the eastern Caribbean, this took only a couple of months. For others like the western Caribbean, we spent 5 years before deciding on the US east coast and Bahamas again, then plan to go back to the WC to catch some of those areas we know from experience how to enjoy better. We are enjoying the Bahamas now much differently than our first two (quicker) times through simply because we have the advantage of previous experience and hindsight.

I don't understand what one "achieves" by cruising. Is it distance? Number of cultures quickly experienced? Number of cultures deeply experienced? Thorough enjoyment of only areas one finds personally satisfying? Just living one's life in a completely different way than "normal"?

I think it is everything above, only different for different people. I know people who only snow bird out of the US for the past ten years, but have explored every nook and cranny from Newfoundland to Bahamas - and they have been immersed in wonderful things you and I haven't experienced.

I know people who have trotted around the world in less than two years and have more miles under their keels than we do, but visited fewer cultures and countries than we have in our more limited travels.

Every place has cruisers who are so happy where they are, they don't venture too much further.

Cruising for many is just living, and not a "3-year plan". The most unhappy cruisers we have met have been those constantly making and adjusting their scheduled plan.

We have known people who have spent two days in Porviner and checked the San Blas Panama off their list, as well as some who have spent a week in George Town and checked the Bahamas off their list.

Cruising isn't just about constantly moving or going long distance, and to place those that do it differently into a "florida condo retirement" category isn't justified.

To me, constantly moving and long distance in short times is vacationing and not cruising.

Mark


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

colemj said:


> I don't understand what one "achieves" by cruising. Is it distance? Number of cultures quickly experienced? Number of cultures deeply experienced? Thorough enjoyment of only areas one finds personally satisfying?


Yes.

Yes, as its each person's achievements. You can't tell me one, nor can you tell me what I think is exotic.

a waste to have all the things, and the ability to do them, but not do them. That's piss poor planning 

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yes.
> 
> Yes, as its each person's achievements. You can't tell me one, nor can you tell me what I think is exotic.
> 
> ...


I don't follow..

Is it a waste, and poor planning, to not sail around the world? Not sail around all the capes? Not explore Antarctica? Not do a bazillion things in a boat that are possible?

We know what you think is exotic - it is the whole reason you are hiding on a boat, traveling randomly, and can't return to Australia. 

But that's not really a "plan"...

Mark


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

colemj said:


> I don't follow..


Yes, you do understand what I am talking about. You are just playing devils advocate.

Which I won't play.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Sometimes you want chocolate-sometimes vanilla. But as the existentialists say just live an "authentic life".

Cruising is doing what you want to do within your capabilities. Not living the role of the intrepid blue water sailor nor being the "Accidental Tourist". ( although you get nookie from Cathleen Turner). Both are roles and can blind you. Both you guys have had great experiences and I'd be delighted to spend time with either of you. Don't follow this bend in the road. 

So if you want to circle the globe wonderful or wander about a region that sounds good as well. Think this bit about living upto the capabilities of your vessel is scary. Mine is way more capable then I'll ever be and its not even a expedition yacht. Glad it lets me sand it's running gear. Hope it lets me sail her soon.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

outbound said:


> Sometimes you want chocolate-sometimes vanilla. But as the existentialists say just live an "authentic life".
> 
> So if you want to circle the globe wonderful ...n.


Well, bull. Bull. Bull, bull.

You may wish to misrepresent my words, as the other Mark does, in any way you wish. I am here to tell you, as most others won't tell you, BULL,bull and bull...

There is more to life and you must extenuate yourself to get the best value before to worms crawl in.

Never have I said you must, or, should, circumnavigate.

Only yesterday did I advise someone the time it's gonna take after going through Panama.

So, please, you and Mark (t'other one) get off my case and get planning!



Mark


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Sorry for the typos.

a stupid phone, not a computer, and it's very difficult to post a normal message.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm am planning. That's why I'm trying get input from you. So far plan is. Fix up the house( occupying most my time at present), sell off our stuff ( in progress), sell the house. Cruise locally for the summer. Do the SDR again. By hurricane season decide north, south or west. Looking for input for that decision. Rest planned out. 
Btw didn't think I was on your case. Really respect the wisdom of your posts. So if I seem to be my bad.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Well, bull. Bull. Bull, bull.
> 
> You may wish to misrepresent my words, as the other Mark does, in any way you wish. I am here to tell you, as most others won't tell you, BULL,bull and bull...
> 
> ...


I believe you. And I don't really care how one goes about it. I just want to get our damn engine finished and go sailing with my sons this summer. That's all.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

There was a lot more smile in my post. It didn't come across. Sorry


Mark


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

*Re: Island Packet Closing Doors?*



colemj said:


> I'll bet more gear is broken getting to Panama than getting to Fiji. At least that was the case when I followed the world ARC in 2011. I was in Panama when they arrived from St. Lucie and almost every single boat was frantically looking for riggers, welders, sail makers, etc. Mark


That's just about the wildest fit of imagination I've seen on here in quite some time. If you think you are going to sail from Panama to Fiji without encountering winds well in excess of 30 knots in a squall or ten, you haven't any experience ocean sailing at all.
As for ST LUCIA (I have to assume you do not mean Port St. Lucie in Fla) to Panama, if folks are arriving needing all those repairs, then perhaps the boats they are sailing are not well found cruising boats and they aren't very capable sailors. Sadly the modern electronic aids to navigation make it all too easy for folks who do not have the seamanship skills to go to sea safely, leaving them unprepared and unable to deal with the realities of voyaging.
Sailing down wind, the vessel's speed lessens the wind speed, so in theory a 25 knot wind should be under 20 knots if the boat is being properly sailed (never mind your '2kt current'), a rather common and manageable wind speed for anybody sailing a sea or ocean.
And to say it makes better sense to sail across the Pacific rather than head East from Panama, is rather simplistic. Only a fool would go from Panama to Grenada directly, but hundreds of sailors do the trip by going north and then East every year. A version of the Thorny Path.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Well, sometimes it is difficult for me to tell what is reality vs. my wildest imagination, but I think I remember having 6 friends (6 different boats) cross the Pacific in the past three years and never see 30kts. Or any bad weather at all outside of short squalls.

Meanwhile, I can point you to many blogs of boats that have gone from St. Lucia (i had to override spell check on this iPad there) to Panama that have sailed multiple days in a row with constant 30+ knots of wind and large, short, steep seas. And had a bad time of it.

So explain your theory about how all these ill equipped, ill designed boats with inexperienced people had significant problems on the SL-panama passage, but no problems all the way across the Pacific. (This is all documented, btw, in multiple ARC blogs). Did they change boats in Panama or become quickly more experienced?

I don't recall saying anything about crossing the Pacific rather than sailing east from Panama. If you comprehend the thread, all I mentioned was that "transocean" passages were being over-stated and "coastal" under appreciated - particularly as how "coastal" was being defined here.

I stand by my hypothesis - cruised central America for 5 years and have seen very many boats arrive there from the EC with lots of broken gear. It is not a coastal sail, and is a notoriously difficult passage - Jimmy Cornell ranks it in the top 5 difficult passages, and the South Pacific milk run doesn't rank in there at all.

You don't seem to understand the Panama- Grenada route well. By the time the end of the winter weather allows you to get North, the start of the summer weather begins to shut down the thorny path and hurricane season encroaches. Most people who choose your proposed route do it in two seasons. Many non-fools don't have that time luxury and do it as I described. You really shouldn't call all those people fools.

As I pointed out, rounding cape horn is all coastal sailing...

Mark


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Coleman, hi Mark,
Thanks for that well thought post a few pages back, very informative..been away from email service but I meant to just drop you a note and say thanks. Seems this thread is getting legs and the normal battle of opinions rages. Cheers, R


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Couple of comments from some of the past posts. There is some truth to what MarkJ suggests and that is if you really want to travel somewhere you need a plan otherwise it's highly likely that you'll go nowhere which for a lot of people is perfect but for people used to achieving things it's not acceptable, I'm sure everyone can understand this.
Rally's are an interesting subject. I really can not hold anyone responsible for anything that goes wrong on a rally, it is after all nothing more than a group of like minded sailors going to the same destination. You as the skipper are totally responsible for the decisions you make, it's not your job to become a sheep and follow others without doing your own homework. If the weather forecast is wrong, well guess what, that's what happens every now and then and because forecasting is not a perfect art remember that when preparing your boat. If you are hoping that by being part of a rally that this somehow makes it safer for you then you still have lots to learn. The only real benifits I see in rally's are on the social side.
Offshore vs coastal cruising, there is a big difference between the two but weather only plays a small part. You have to be a more capable all rounded sailor for offshore work. Check book sailors can have real issues, read RPerry's friends blog who is sailing around the world in Baba 40. He's fixing lots of stuff that's breaking and a good offshore sailor needs those skillsets. IF the weather does turn sour you cannot run for a port, you deal with it. There is a long list of other stuff but offshore sailing is different. I know for a fact that some coastal sailing can be just as tough or tougher but it still leaves you options that are not available to the offshore sailor. ColomJ is right when he suggests that rounding Cape Horn has become coastal cruising, especially these days it wasn't that long ago that sailors crossed the sea and rounded the horn and dealt with whatever weather there was and some still do but many coastal cruise the Southern shores and only sail when conditions are perfect making a horn rounding much less than days gone by. The debate will rage on about coastal and offshore ssiling but it's a Ford/Chevy thing, they are just different, some passages are easy and others not so much.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Excellent summary Robert. Truly appreciated.
But would just note the number of times you may find yourself on the shelf or even in sight of land but no succor available. You need not go to the high latitudes for that to be true. Some places for hundreds of miles. But it doesn't matter if it's only 25 miles when you are in trouble.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

colemj said:


> Or any bad weather at all outside of short squalls.
> to Panama that have sailed multiple days in a row with constant 30+ knots of wind and large, short, steep seas.
> Mark


I'll take several days of steady 30 knots up the butt, before I want to experience another 70+ knot "short" squall in the middle of the night in the SoPac, but I've a boat and crew that can handle both, so I'll take what comes.
As for breaking gear in 30 knots up the butt with whatever seas may accompany those winds, I still maintain that is an ill prepared crew and/or vessel that would have any damage in those conditions. As I stated above, that's only a bit over 20 of apparent wind and NOBODY who goes ocean sailing should have the slightest trouble in that.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Gotta agree with Capta, 30 knots from behind is really nothing that should cause anyone on a well found boat any trouble. We often raced with full main and kites in 30+.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Outbound..sure if you coastal sail enough in tougher areas the luck of the draw suggests that one day you will get your butt kicked. Saying that, if you coastal sail in tougher areas it would make sense to have a well maintained and all around good boat so that you are only roughed up a bit but totally safe.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

When one thinks of tough passages, the usual suspects are across Colombia, Tehuantepec, drake passage, bass straights, Indian coast of South Africa, Biscay, for example.

Strangely, these all fit the definition of coastal cruising being used here.

I've never heard anyone but you describe crossing the SoPac as one of the toughest passages in the world. Jimmy Cornell certainly doesn't, but he does describe several of the above as such (including the one we have been discussing).

70 knot squalls can be found anywhere. We recently had one in the Bahamas. I am unclear what makes them more treacherous in the SoPac.

The wind isn't what usually breaks gear. That is more likely in continuous 15-20' short and breaking seas, which are far more prevalent in the western Caribbean than the SoPac.

Again, most common cruising route ocean passages are over-emphasized, while more gear is probably broken because those same people under-appreciate many of the common "coastal" routes.

Mark


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Downwind sailing in 30 knots is really no big deal, if you sail from Trinidad to Colombia via the ABC islands it's almost a given and that's coastal sailing, no different offshore but 25 knots is more comfortable, lol.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

I've crossed the South Pacific more than once and the strongest winds I have ever experienced were in the SP but on average it is usually pretty nice sailing. It's different because you are crossing the equator and you can have some interesting weather in the duldrums.That plus the fact that the weather changes a lot, nothing steady about the trades in that area. I only crossed the Atlantic once and it was quite easy in comparison. Really, if you have a good boat and it's outfitted properly and you have a decent skillset sailing anywhere, coastal or offshore is not a big deal. In my experience most of the great adventure sailing stories I hear are simply a rather normal situation turned totally sour by poor preparation and a lousy skillset.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Agree Robert you make good points. Think skill set not only comes from being taught but also experience. Have learned a bunch in the last 2yrs. c/w the prior 30+ years. Even though the prior included Bermuda races and the rare trip to the Caribbean. See there is still much to learn. Thank you for your insights. 
What I'm getting out of this is
Coastal weather and passages can be as nasty as open ocean
Sometimes you can hide if coastal. Sometimes you can't. Coastal can be as bad or worst than open ocean if there is no place to hide. 
On a cruising boat of the common sizes hence speed there is no place to hide when weather overtakes you in the open ocean.
Probability of weather of real concern with a bit of forethought is low but does occur hence needs to be planned for.
Therefore the emphasis on so called blue water maybe misplaced. Rather be going from Bermuda to Tortola then coastal sailing Patagonia in terms of risk. Risk is predicated by the specific passage contemplated at a specific time.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

outbound said:


> Agree Robert you make good points. Think skill set not only comes from being taught but also experience. Have learned a bunch in the last 2yrs. c/w the prior 30+ years. Even though the prior included Bermuda races and the rare trip to the Caribbean. See there is still much to learn. Thank you for your insights.
> What I'm getting out of this is
> Coastal weather and passages can be as nasty as open ocean
> Sometimes you can hide if coastal. Sometimes you can't. Coastal can be as bad or worst than open ocean if there is no place to hide.
> ...


I might as well give our two cents worth about crossing the three oceans. South Atlantic and Caribbean to Bermuda and Bermuda to Long Island Sound was very civilized bordering on boring - we could have used more wind. Pacific, including going south to Easter and going to Oz rather than NZ, a little bit of every thing from almost no wind to 55+. Indian Ocean - Bali to South Africa - solid trades to very strong trades (~30 for days at a time). Would disagree with someone's characterization of coastal passages along the SA coast being nasty. We found getting to Richards Bay was a real challenge with the Agulhas Current being the wild card that could kill you. Once you are in SA going from port to port seemed pretty easy so long as you did it at the right season and were patient to wait for a decent forecast that would get you to the next port down the line (I seem to remember these ranged from 90 to about 270 miles).


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

More good points K. Given here east coast to eastern carribean is being considered "coastal" and weather forecasts are meaningful for 5 d at best that old saw "if you didn't bring it you don't have it" would seem to apply even then. Need to bring a good boat, good attitude, skill set and maybe good luck. Still trying to take baby steps to get near your level.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Anyone who thinks east to west in the south Pacific is tough wants to try west to east in the Indian Ocean. I've done both, the second on my own. South Pacific is not called the Milk Run for nothing. It's the proverbial walk in the park. Once you're out of the ITCZ, even squalls seem to be rare. It is not uncommon to sail over 1000nm without trimming a sail. It's the only area where I would leave a gennaker up over-night.

Just plan your weather window to not include a "squash zone". That can be classed in the "character building" category.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Most of our sailing has been on the Great Lakes. It is by all definitions coastal sailing but the bad days on these lakes can be very tough. Certainly not hurricane tough but high straight line winds and short period waves need to be respected. We're looking forward to more distance ocean sailing where running out of lake isn't a consideration.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I have spent 40 years sailing on the Great Lakes. Anyone who things that Great Lakes sailing is comparable to ocean passage sailing (ignoring hurricanes and the like), has not spent a lot of time crossing oceans. On the lakes you can get a nasty, even dangerous squall and the short waves can be unpleasant but this is not like some ocean sailing. Check out the pilot chart for the Indian Ocean during the most favourable time of the year, say November. Lots of blocks in the trades that show the most common winds to be 30 knots. We had these conditions for more than two weeks every day. You could never get this on the lakes. Once you get west of Mauritius it gets even windier - again for days on end.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

I get what you are saying Killarney but if you race on the Great Lakes and have to spend a day and a night sailing upwind into 25~30 knots against short 10~12 footers after it's been blowing for a day from the NE you might not think it's so easy. To me it feels like sailing east in the Mona or Anagada Passage minus the underlying swell. We're looking forward to more ocean sailing maybe I'll change my mind after a bit.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have no experience with this. May sound like a stupid question(s) but here goes.
Is there any difference in sailing a large body of fresh water versus the sea? Does the difference in buoyancy really make any difference? Is there a significant difference in viscosity hence wave formation? At what size does effect of fetch equalize?or does it ever? How far out before reflection and other shore effects clear with deminution of confused seas?
Read these posts and think of the Edmund Fitzgerald.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

outbound said:


> Have no experience with this. May sound like a stupid question(s) but here goes.
> Is there any difference in sailing a large body of fresh water versus the sea? Does the difference in buoyancy really make any difference? Is there a significant difference in viscosity hence wave formation? At what size does effect of fetch equalize?or does it ever? How far out before reflection and other shore effects clear with deminution of confused seas?
> Read these posts and think of the Edmund Fitzgerald.


There's no difference noticable between fresh and salt. But I bet there's some people here who say the difference is huge. Blindfold test them.

Wave action has a lot to do with depth. Shallow water can fluff up. The depth outside Whitefish bay dousnt get to 100 meters deep till 7nms off shore. So if the song says 'whey would have made Whitefish bay if they put 10 more miles behind them' indicates shallowcwayer if they were going along the coast.

Reflection off coast affect waves a long way out. In storms maybe 5 miles or more.

Some places are mean because 50knots really means 50 knots not just 30 knots with a few higher gusts.

I have a rule: Only sail in the right season. Fools denigrate me for it. F* knows why. That rule is in the song: When the gales of November come early. I.e. don't sail in November and in the last half of October watch out!

Not all folklore is bull. They used songs etc to help remember, little ditties too, 'red sky at night' etc. So in local areas it would be useful to listen to the old drunken fishermen cluttering up a bar...


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Last time I checked Horn and Good Hope had coasts.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Shockwave said:


> I get what you are saying Killarney but if you race on the Great Lakes and have to spend a day and a night sailing upwind into 25~30 knots against short 10~12 footers after it's been blowing for a day from the NE you might not think it's so easy. To me it feels like sailing east in the Mona or Anagada Passage minus the underlying swell. We're looking forward to more ocean sailing maybe I'll change my mind after a bit.


I think to some extent you are comparing apples to pipe wrenches. The mindset for racing and cruising are different as are the distances and time at sea. When you race you are on someone else's schedule and route. When you are doing extended cruising you are looking to avoid windward work and generally are prepared to wait until you get favourable conditions, whether this is for something short like the Mona Passage (weather window) or something longer, say the Pacific Ocean (use of pilot charts to pick a season.

I did not say that Great Lakes sailing is always easy (or pleasant), but it is a different thing than long passages.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

outbound said:


> Have no experience with this. May sound like a stupid question(s) but here goes.
> Is there any difference in sailing a large body of fresh water versus the sea? Does the difference in buoyancy really make any difference? Is there a significant difference in viscosity hence wave formation? At what size does effect of fetch equalize?or does it ever? How far out before reflection and other shore effects clear with deminution of confused seas?
> Read these posts and think of the Edmund Fitzgerald.


Sailing feels the same. The waves on large lakes tend to be smaller, but shorter wav lengths and more confused than on the ocean. Also the weather tends to change more rapidly in mid-latitude areas like the Great Lakes than in the trade winds where many people sail and where most trans-ocean passages occur (for good reason because the conditions are predictable and generally fairly benign).


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> There's no difference noticable between fresh and salt. But I bet there's some people here who say the difference is huge. Blindfold test them.
> 
> Wave action has a lot to do with depth. Shallow water can fluff up. The depth outside Whitefish bay dousnt get to 100 meters deep till 7nms off shore. So if the song says 'whey would have made Whitefish bay if they put 10 more miles behind them' indicates shallowcwayer if they were going along the coast.
> 
> ...





killarney_sailor said:


> Sailing feels the same. The waves on large lakes tend to be smaller, but shorter wav lengths and more confused than on the ocean. Also the weather tends to change more rapidly in mid-latitude areas like the Great Lakes than in the trade winds where many people sail and where most trans-ocean passages occur (for good reason because the conditions are predictable and generally fairly benign).


I've spent half my life sailing the great lakes and half the western Atlantic and Caribbean. These two posts sum up the difference except for three points:
1. You can drink lake water (or at least it doesn't taste icky if you accidentally swallow some)
2. You are clean and ready for bed after washing in lake water
3. Great Lake weather systems are Midwest plains systems and not maritime systems. They can move on you within minutes, unforecasted, and at almost hurricane force at almost any time of year. You can have two hours of 70kt hail tornados and 20' 4 second breaking seas in August. And then it is a nice summer day again.

Of the three points above, the third is the real difference, although I personally miss the "fresh" aspect of fresh water.

BTW, our boat rides almost a full inch lower in fresh water, although that isn't meaningful in practice.

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Can think of another difference.

You don't get to say things like gitche gume or uppa US. Those things and the tapioca bridge (tarrytown) used to crack my kids up. .


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

I'm not so sure a racing schedule is much different then being stuck in a bad weather situation on a passage. You deal with what you have.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> I'm not so sure a racing schedule is much different then being stuck in a bad weather situation on a passage. You deal with what you have.


This is exactly right. And this is what most cruisers don't get.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Obviously when you are racing, you are trying to go as fast as you can toward your destination within the constraints of the weather. On a passage you choose the course and sail combination that makes for comfort and an extra margin of safety. You don't want to blow out a sail or lose the rig - repair facilities and shelter are not close at hand as they would be on any coastal race. If conservative choices mean you lose a day or whatever, so what? You may even stop or go very slowly (heave-to or use a drogue) in a direction entirely different from your course. Smack, don't understand your comment at all. Note the previous sentences. Also many (most?) cruisers did race in an earlier life. Back to the important idea that we are talking about different mindsets.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Racing and cruising are very different no matter the situation. When racing you have 6-8 men aboard that can handle most situations and don't need autopilots or self steering vanes. There are enough people that everyone gets a good sleep if it's a long distant race. If you compare that to your average Mom and Pop crew crossing oceans it's not a fair comparison. Short handed crews are always slightly sleep deprived and when there are just the two of you its single handing much of the time. If you get into bad weather that requires running off a racing crew can do that in their sleep but Mom/Pop are going to be out of steam after 24 hours of steering in the big stuff. Their choice is to set something like a Series Drogue that can passively look after things without the need of a helmsman. Racing crews and cruisers do not make a good comparison under most situations, my opinion anyways.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

A report in the San Jose Mercury:

"DAVENPORT -- A sailor with a damaged boat in heavy wind was rescued by the Coast Guard off Ano Nuevo State Park on Monday.

About 7 a.m., a man on a 40-foot sailboat called the Kentucky Woman was sailing about 30 nautical miles west of Ano Nuevo, said Coast Guard Lt. j.g. Jake Urrutia. The boat had been taking on water for about 16 hours, Urrutia said. Wind of 40-to-50 knots damaged the boat's mainsail and wrapped it around the mast, Urrutia said. His marine radio also was damaged." He was air-lifted out by helicopter.

Wow! The weather forecast had been calling gale warnings and this was no surprise. At that distance, there are a number of places where the Kentucky Woman could have headed for a harbor of refuge - San Francisco, Half Moon Bay or Santa Cruz. The conditions were very bad, and I'm glad that the sailor was lifted onto a helicopter and is safe. Yes, coastal conditions can be terrible, but there is sometimes the option of heading for shelter. The wind, being from the north, allowed the vessel to head into shelter - I wonder what the reason(s) is they he did not take this option?


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

Scotty -
How do you know he wasn't?
He could have been 130 miles out when trouble started.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Good point, Mike. So far I can't find any more information. I wonder where he was going, and from where he departed? It seems like an interesting story, but no information yet. If anyone finds out more, please let us know!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Other possible differences:
When ocean racing you have a pretty much fixed time of departure. So you can plan farther in advance. Rather than scrambling for crew your crew is selected months in advance. Often they have raced the boat before and are all well skilled in handling the boat offshore. There are no weak sisters if you want to be competitive. Even if new to the boat they come with an impressive resume and are at the peak of their physical as well as sailing skills.
Again to be competitive the boat is prepped with an open wallet. Things like a new suit of sails, haul just before the race for the bottom and such are not rare. 
Depending on race rules out side help maybe much more extensive. Things like personalized routing are less likely to be used by the cruiser. Even personalized planning of how to cross ocean currents (e.g. Gulf Stream ) before the race when no outside help allowed maybe a look at a download for the cruiser or a detailed plan utilizing breakouts, curls and such for the racer.
In short the racer at multiple levels maybe able to apply more resources to the passage-manpower, technology, prep, and materials with more support during the passage.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

outbound said:


> When ocean racing you have a pretty much fixed time of departure.


Out, this is the point I was trying to make, Racing, you deal with the weather as it comes and you go the direction dictated by the course. On the Great Lakes it can be damn tough on boats and crews who race if they have to spend any length of time beating into high winds with a short period wave. Is this the same as a 20 day passage? No, the cruiser has the luxury of backing off and/or going another direction, they don't have to beat the boat and crew to death. Yes, the cruiser has to deal with weather that occurs over a long passage, they're not going to outrun it. Does 10 days of broad reaching in 30 concern me? No. Will it get tiring? Yes. Is it more tiring or harder on the boat then beating into 25 knots with 8 footers with 3.5 second periods for 24, 36 48 hours...? I don't know, I'll let you know if I broad reach for 10 days. I've already done the 1~2 days upwind in high wind and short period waves, it sucks.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Shock totally agree but point I wanted to point out is ocean racing is hugely expensive if you want to be competitive. Often resources applied for a race are an order of magnitude higher than for a cruise.
Totally out of loop for decades but even back in day my budget for a Marion not even a Newport was greater than anything else for the year. We ran a quite modest budget c/w others.
New sails and boat prepped to a T with no expense spared for a race is a different thing than what most cruisers face.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Out, I know racing expenses, I've raced for over 45 years, it was nothing for us to spend $30~40k on sails. Our current boat takes a crew of 18 and a new main, ap 1, blade and couple kites is $100k. Racing a boat eats the boat, the crew and your wallet in a right quick order.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Wow. You must race some awesome boats. Good on you. Must be great fun


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Yup different league than my 10 years of beer can racing, not sure I'm envious with those type of expenses but the boat must be fantastic.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Wow. Hard for me to fathom pissing away that kind of coin on anything that wasn't higher education/degree related. That would be almost 15x my research budget on my last publication.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

It doesn't take much to burn through some dough racing. A minimum suit of sails to race a Merges 32 can easily cost $60~70K. And the top guys swap out sails quicker then changing bed linens. Racing can be pricey, cruising is much more affordable and relaxed.


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