# VW diesels, unexpensive but.. viable?



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Is there somebody outthere with experience about marinised VW 1900 diesels out of rabbits, golfs ect? Marinising kits are available, but I''d like to know about them before going into one


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## hamiam (Dec 15, 2000)

I have a 48hp marinized VW diesel engine in my Fast (Nicholson) 345. I have been very happy with the engine. You might want to talk to the experts, however, at Pathfinder Marine Diesel. Good luck.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hamian
Thanks for your response. Is it possible to purchase a VW marinising kit in the USA?.. As far as I know, they are available in Europe, but don''t know who sells them here.
Federico


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## hamiam (Dec 15, 2000)

Well, the guys at Pathfinder are on the US/Canadian boarder. I''m sure that they can help you.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hello hamiam
I just picked up a 1500 cc VW diesel from a VW Dasher. I need to find a way to communicate with the guys at pathfinder Marine. I tried locating them in the net, but my efforts did not pay. Can you provide an internet address or telephone # where I can get in touch with them?
Thanks
Federico


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The last thing that I heard, Pathfinder was no longer in business. Beyond that the Pathfinder diesels had a terrible reliability reputation, The parts were expensive and not too easy to obtain.


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## hamiam (Dec 15, 2000)

I spoke with them on 1/20/01. Their email address is [email protected] . My engine was modified by a company called "Control" and not by Pathfinder. Most of the parts are VW and the others are from such companies as ITT Jabsco and the like.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I guess I got that one wrong. I raced on a boat probably about three years back on which the engine was not running and the owner said that he had a Pathfinder diesel and had problems getting parts since in his words "Pathfinder was out of business." I am glad to hear otherwise.
Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

wow


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*wow*

wow


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Came across this story . . .pmiripoff.blogspot.com - Pathfinder Marine Inc. sells junk!. These guys sound like a real piece of work. I'll be sure to stay away from Pathfinder at all costs!!!


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Ya did notice this thread was 8 YEARS OLD didn't ya?


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

bobbarn, I notice you just joined and made two similar comments in two forums here about Pathfinder referencing that web site. Sorta looks like you have more than just a passing interest in the negative side of Pathfinder. Do you have a dog in that fight?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Mr Barn,
Anyone who comes along and in their first few posts makes it obvious that they are a one topic wonder arouses suspicion. 
To any of you reading this , and I sure most of you know what is coming cos you are not dumb bunnies, should recognise that BOBBARN has an axe that he is intent on grinding. 
Everyone needs to make an educated assessment of any product and service they are contemplating buying or using. Simply because someone out there has had a bad experience does not necessary mean the provider is the devil incarnate. 
bobbarn...we would like some clarification from you re your position in this business. Failure to do so may well see your posts deleted.
Regards
tdw
sailnet moderator

ps - the second thread you started has already been deleted. Repetition is boring.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks Fuzzy.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I have had occasion to deal with Pathfinder Marine in the past - my last two boats have had VW Rabbit diesel marine conversions - and though sometimes difficult to get a hold of, they are very knowledgable, helpful and service was very good ( had parts Montreal to Vancouver in 2 days ).

Don't know (or care, really) what bobbarn's beef is, but as usual there's another side to the story. Oh - and btw.. these are great engines, inexpensive parts, smooth running, plenty of power if a tad noisy.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Fair*

All fair feedback on the posting . . .was simply relaying something I had come across that I found interesting. Much like most of the "links" folks post of forums, etc. it's an individuals choice on how to use that information.

I've been helped by many things folks posted in the past. You are welcome to haze me but at the end of the day if helping get the word out about a bad incident helps even one person - I'm fine with the hazing.

Happy and safe boating,
Bob Barn


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

Bob, what the "hazing" is about is not you reporting a bad incident or experience--happens all the time on Sailnet and is useful, as is reporting good experiences.

But they way you jumped in for the first time with two threads on that incident, suggests that you didn't just happen upon it, but were a part of it, or have an axe to grind from something previous. You haven't answered that question, so I'll put it to you directly: do you have any connection at all to the incident, company, or persons in question?


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## KANEV (Feb 25, 2010)

*PLEASE HELP(diesel engine)*

Will it be enough power if I install diesel engine (VW golf 1986 NON turbo 1.6)
On bayliner with cuddy 17ft long(1989) ????????
THANK YOU 
ALEX


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Considering they are around 52HP, I guess it depends on what you were hoping for?


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## KANEV (Feb 25, 2010)

The same power what I can get from 85hp outboart.
??????????????
It is not going to be strong enough?
thank you


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

Bitchy thread


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## kelldog (Nov 12, 2009)

Well;
Here's a bump to this thread. I have just acquired a 41 ft Trimaran with the pathfinder diesel in it..runs great but need an air fillter. Can someone give me an idea where to get one of find the company in canada? (if it still around)
Thank you,
Kelldog


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## oceanscapt (Aug 1, 2009)

I've read about Cal owners not liking the Pathfinder engines but it's nice to get some positive comments. For me the biggest problem is deciding if I can get parts in 5 years. I'd sleep a lot better if the engine in the boat I'm looking at was a 4-108.


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## trailblazer1229 (May 27, 2009)

Federico said:


> Is there somebody outthere with experience about marinised VW 1900 diesels out of rabbits, golfs ect? Marinising kits are available, but I''d like to know about them before going into one


I would do A LOT of research about that engine. Older VW engines have a lot of parts made out of magnesium. Have you ever seen magnesium burn? If that engine were to catch fire on your boat.....Magnesium burns underwater and when water is applied to a magnesium fire, it lights up like a white pospherous grenade. So, putting water on it makes it worse. A lot worse. You would be surrounded by water if it were to catch fire.


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## oceanscapt (Aug 1, 2009)

trailblazer1229 said:


> I would do A LOT of research about that engine. Older VW engines have a lot of parts made out of magnesium. Have you ever seen magnesium burn? If that engine were to catch fire on your boat.....Magnesium burns underwater and when water is applied to a magnesium fire, it lights up like a white pospherous grenade. So, putting water on it makes it worse. A lot worse. You would be surrounded by water if it were to catch fire.


While I agree with the magnesium heat, I have seen very few fiberglass boats survive catching fire. If I were on a steel/aluminum boat I doubt I could pump enough water or carry enough Class D extinguishers to put the fire(s) out.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Trailblazer, can you cite any ONE reference to a magnesium engine block, magnesium engine parts, magnesium lawnmower deck, magnesium laptop case...magnesium ANYTHING on the consumer market experiencing a magnesium fire?

I doubt it. 

You might be able to set engine parts on fire, but well before then you'd have a fully involved fuel fire on the boat and you'd be abandoning ship anyway. 

While you're at it, worry about engine intake and exhaust valves. The really good ones are internally cooled by a liquid sodium flow in their cores, and liquid sodium isn't very nice to be around either. Yet somehow, it never is a problem in engine parts.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I've owned two boats with marinized VW engines (and still have one). I don't think the magnesium issue is a seriously valid concern... fires on diesel engines - or boats for that matter - are rare enough.

As for the engine it seems to me that the tens of thousands Rabbits around the world getting 2-300 K miles on them without issue is testament enough to the toughness and durability of the core power. With a worldwide base, I reckon basic engine parts are more widely available than any Yanmar/Volvo/ etc source. Certainly parts are cheaper and quicker to access. The marinized parts (RWP, manifold/reservoir, gearboxes) are mainstream brands like Perkins or Jabsco or Sherwood, Hurth and as such are little different from the rest.

The aluminium head calls for caution and a studious avoidance of overheating, but at 4 cyl, 40+ HP and relatively light weight it makes for a pretty nice reliable engine. A bit noisy compared to some, but careful path treatment can eliminate or minimize a lot of that. As with any installation, vibration issues often create more noise than the engine itself.

I believe my boat sat on the market for some time because of the engine.. and for that, I'm grateful. On our previous boat we did a complete rebuild top to bottom for no more than $2500.... price that out for a 4 cyl Volvo or Yanmar.... Some years ago a friend was out of pocket $3400 by the time he fixed/replaced the cylinder head on a 8 hp 1 cyl Bukh.


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## tager (Nov 21, 2008)

Magnesium is not very noble though.


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## rcarr (Aug 17, 2000)

I have own an Islander sailboat with a pathfinder 50 for ten years. The engine is like all engines, if maintained properly it will run great for years. As for as Pathfinder, they are still in business. You can contact them at [email protected] or call them at 514-695-6676. They offer great service and techincal support. Give them an engine serial number and they will produce a manual specifically for that engine. Included in the manual will be a parts list with corresponding VW part numbers so that you can buy parts locally.

rcarr


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## trailblazer1229 (May 27, 2009)

hellosailor said:


> Trailblazer, can you cite any ONE reference to a magnesium engine block, magnesium engine parts, magnesium lawnmower deck, magnesium laptop case...magnesium ANYTHING on the consumer market experiencing a magnesium fire?
> 
> I doubt it.
> 
> ...


Sure. Actually, during firefighting school we saw plenty of videos and the instructors made sure we knew about them when approaching a car fire. VW's used to be the worst offenders. YOUTUBE search offers this
YouTube - magnesiumfire
When he puts water on the engine block notice the tell tale white light.

I agree, there are many, many things to worry about. This is probably not a major concern. But, hell, it's good to know. Find out if your engine has mag. parts. If so and it catches fire....Don't throw the wet stuff on it. Sure, first instinct is to hit it with that tiny fire extinguisher. But when that runs out in 6 seconds and the fire still burns....True, you will PROBABLY abandon ship. But I am sure there are some that will try to stay and fight it out using the abundance of wet material that surrounds them. Bad choice.

BTW, since you mentioned it, which marine engines...beside nuclear powered vessels, use liquid sodium? Just curious. Maybe that is the bigger issue.


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## trailblazer1229 (May 27, 2009)

Sorry didn't mean to highjack.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

I think the difference is that the VW diesel was not specifically designed to be put under constant load (like an engine designed to do heavy work). I have heard that there are issues with the cylinder heads warping and blowing head gaskets. This is probably associated with over-loading the engine or running at constant high load for long durations.

As far as the magnesium issue goes; I think they used it in air-cooled engines; but not sure on the water cooled diesels. I would venture to say that they did not since it would not be necessary to the design.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Keelhaulin,

I had a VW diesel Rabbit. When on a trip to Wyoming during
extremely cold weather before starting, which was very 
difficult, needed a very small shot of ether, coolant would
weep out at the head gasket. After it warmed up a little the 
leak stopped, with no further problem. I know, no ether with pre-
combustion chamber heads, but it was the only way to get it started
at 10 degrees below zero. I ran it for over 100,000 miles, no problems.
I think it was basically a converted gas engine, OK for automotive
use, but not sure about continous long term loading of marine use?

Dabnis


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Yes; that's what I am thinking. They were fine for automobile use because the (earlier) engines were not specifically designed for heavy loads like the "tractor" engine designs were (perkins, caterpillar, kubota). Not to say they were not excellent engines for their intended use (automotive); but not suited as well for a boat engine where loads are constant and much higher than an auto going down the expressway.

If you need to use ether on a diesel engine the best way is to spray it onto a rag and then hold it near the intake. Usually it will only take a whiff; if it requires more you might have a compression problem. My perkins 4-108 has no glow plugs; and on cold days it's stubborn. I crank it for 15-20 seconds, then wait 30 seconds and try again. The warming of the cylinders from compression cycles is enough to get it to start on the second try. If it had glow plugs or an intake warming glow plug it would start immediately. Try cranking 2-3 times before going for the ether.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Keelhaulin,

Right, I only used just a whiff and only in below zero
conditions. In "normal" conditions the glow plugs worked fine.
My daughter had a turbo diesel VW Jetta. After about 60,000
miles after climbing Donner summit or any other long grade
the oil pressure would drop to about 5 to 10 pounds at idle,
setting off the low pressure warning light. Heavier oil didn't 
help. Either it was the lower end loosening up or the pump
wearing out? Other than that it ran fine, the turbo really helped
performance. I think it was the same basic engine as in the Rabbit,
maybe a little more displacement, and of course the turbo.
Again, not sure about marine use although in an earlier post Faster
said he had one in two boats with no trouble?

Dabnis


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## oceanscapt (Aug 1, 2009)

@ rcarr - thanks for the link

As for the Pathfinder on the Cal 39 I'm looking at, it started right up and ran without any smoke or weird noises. It did cause some vibration in the cockpit at about 700rpm (the owner wanted to run it at 1100-1200) but that may be the junk in the lockers vibrating.

I didn't know about the aluminum heads so I see I'm going to do some more research.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

If you do buy a boat with a pathfinder you might want to consider putting a smaller than recommended prop on it to minimize loading and over-heating. If you are just going to use the boat for daysailing and the distance from your marina to where you will sail is short; I would not worry too much about it. If you need to motor long distances you should ease up on the throttle for a minute or two every 20-30 minutes of time to let the engine cool down.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Our experience is quite different... We have a relatively chunky prop on an 11,500 lb boat and with 42 HP can push the boat to a little over 7 knots. We usually run at 6.4 and about 17-1800 rpm. In our summer we are plagued with light to no winds in many areas and we are often required to motor for hours on end. On our previous boat with the same engine, but much larger displacement we operated it similarly but at higher rpms. At no time did we overheat due to loading.. and that's now going on 17 years with two different marinized VWs.

The aluminum head contributes to the engine's relatively light weight and as long as you keep the cooling system properly operating we've not found any issue with it whatsoever.

KH, you may well be correct about the original design mandate, but our experience is that this is as reliable an engine as you can have provided (like any others) you look after it. I was thrilled to find another.


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## oceanscapt (Aug 1, 2009)

Good news, Faster, thanks. 

The boat I'm looking hard at has the original Pathfinder and appears to be in OK condition. There are problems however (ratted out generator belt, some kind of liquid in the bilge, and a rather disturbing idle rumble), but the temps looked good on the mooring after a half hour or so.

If I have to drop the RPMs every half hour or so then, as far as I'm concerned, the motor has serious problems. A motor with the proper sized prop, running within the specified RPM range should be able to run 24/7. I will concede that running in warmer water will raise the temperature of the engine but if the heat exchanger is properly sized and working as designed, the rise in temperature should not require throttling back.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

oceanscapt said:


> If I have to drop the RPMs every half hour or so then, as far as I'm concerned, the motor has serious problems..


Agreed... as as mentioned it's not something we've ever had to do.

Our first engine (actual Pathfinder conversion) eventually needed a rebuild after 15 years or so.. was very inexpensive compared to marine parts. The one we have now is a Brazilian conversion with some differences in layout and parts used, but in both cases the only time we've had issues has been with external, non VW parts like the exchanger, RW pump, fuel filters etc.

I'm not saying Yanmar, Volvo et al are bad engines.. all I'm saying is that the Pathfinders and their like are also not bad engines... and don't deserve the negative rep they appear to have.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

You know; with all engines there are a certain percentage that have chronic problems. I was not trying to say that the Pathfinder engines are of poor quality; just that the original design spec for the VW engine was not for continuous high loading. If the engine was not at all capable of it, it would be safe to assume that many, many more pathfinders would have failures.

In your case Faster, a 42 HP engine is probably not going to be worked at a very high load when pushing an 11,500 lb hull. That's pretty light displacement for 42HP. It's possible that more problems with head gaskets occur when the boat displacement is closer to 18-20k lb. More water to push out of the way and more wetted surface will increase the engine loading quite a bit.

I was only pointing out a potential reason for the reported reliability problems; but it could also be due application mis-match, over-propping, engine quality control, etc.


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## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

trailblazer1229 said:


> I would do A LOT of research about that engine. Older VW engines have a lot of parts made out of magnesium.


VW diesels do not have any magnesium parts. The magnesium engine blocks were on the much older aircooled VW engines.



KeelHaulin said:


> I think the difference is that the VW diesel was not specifically designed to be put under constant load (like an engine designed to do heavy work). I have heard that there are issues with the cylinder heads warping and blowing head gaskets. This is probably associated with over-loading the engine or running at constant high load for long durations.


VW diesels are widely used and marketed as heavy duty industrial engines. The six cylinder version of this engine is used in military vehicles, and vans all over Europe.

The only issue is that they have aluminum heads- and do not survive overheating as well as an all cast iron diesel. This is simply a matter of properly engineering and sizing the cooling system to allow 100% constant load without overheating.

I think the VW diesels would make great marine engines, but even better would be the old Mercedes diesels with cast iron heads- these engines would have less issues with galvanic corrosion, and can survive mild overheating without damage.

Another issue with VW diesels is that they require thousands of dollars worth of specialized tools to perform major work on them, whereas most marine diesels can be worked on with standard tools.


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