# How attach reefing lines



## Kick (Nov 21, 2008)

How do you attach reefing lines to your main? Do you simply use a bowline, or is it possible to use a snap shackle or other way to get her rigged quickly and securely?


----------



## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

Kick,

Pass the line though the sail and tie stopper knots on both sides of the sail so they don't fall off. What size boat do you have?


----------



## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

Denby, I think he's talking about jiffy reefing lines, or a single line reefing system.

Kick, I typed "single line reefing" into a google search, then clicked on images. There are pages of drawings and pictures of every configuration of reefing line you can think of.


----------



## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

With my loose footed main, I run the reefing line from the end of the boom sheave, up to the reef cringle and back down to the boom, where I tie a bowline around the boom. This gives me a solid platform to crank in hard and get the tension I need.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

labatt said:


> With my loose footed main, I run the reefing line from the end of the boom sheave, up to the reef cringle and back down to the boom, where I tie a bowline around the boom. This gives me a solid platform to crank in hard and get the tension I need.


Second this plan... If the sail is not loose footed, then do the same but use a padeye or fitting on the boom for the end of the reef line. Avoid extra hardware like shackles - just something else to whack you in the head when it comes adrift....


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Third this plan... and defintely agree no shackles should be used unless you like getting flailed with them. Also, using a snap shackle means that the reefing line might accidentally be released under sail.. If that happens and you've got the reefing nettles tied in... you're probably going to tear your sail really badly. Reefing lines are not lines you want to be "quick-release" EVER.



Faster said:


> Second this plan... If the sail is not loose footed, then do the same but use a padeye or fitting on the boom for the end of the reef line. Avoid extra hardware like shackles - just something else to whack you in the head when it comes adrift....


----------



## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

The man is right, in a stiff breeze you will get flailed with them, probably up the eyes or teeth. When you are reefing, there will be a stiff breeze, or worse.

Just tie them with that best-of-the-best knot... cue fanfare of trumpets in B.... the bowline.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Denby is talking about the nettles, not the reefing lines themselves.


denby said:


> Kick,
> 
> Pass the line though the sail and tie stopper knots on both sides of the sail so they don't fall off. What size boat do you have?


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

That was actually my posting that started the thread. I was using Kick's computer and didn't realize the post had his name on it until it was too late.

This is for our Beneteau 50, not loose footed. We had it reefed last month and tied a bowline directly to the eye in the sail (kringle?). 

Now that I think of it, there's no place to tie off the end of the reefing line, except sliding eyes of sorts that's in the track at the bottom of the sail. We could have used them last month.


----------



## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

Pass the line up, through the cringle in the sail, and down the other side. Make it fast to the eye at bottom of the boom with a figure 8 knot or bowline. I take it you're talking about the reefing line at the leech and not single line reefing with another line at the luff.


----------



## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Bene505 said:


> This is for our Beneteau 50, not loose footed. We had it reefed last month and tied a bowline directly to the eye in the sail (kringle?).


Definitely don't do it this way!! But you already seem to recognize this isn't the right approach.

I'll only add to the good advice above that it is preferable to have the termination point for the reefing line (where it secures to the boom after passing through the cringle) somewhat aft of the cringle itself. This helps to get good outhaul tension on the reefed sail.

If you reef the sail with insufficient "outhaul" tension (provided by the reefing line), you can end up with too much draft in the sail and it may not depower as you'd expect from taking a reef.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

There's 2 lines for each reef. (Double line reefing?)

I don't think I'd trust a figure 8 knot. I read somewhere (maybe sailnet) about a better stopper knot that doesn't come undone, and converted all my figure 8s to it. Not sure of the name for it.

The bowline sounds the best. That and half hitches can't be beat IMHO.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

The attachment points that on the bottom of the boom slide. So there may be no way to attach the end of the reefing line outward of the eye in the sail. It would tend to be straight down from the eye. Unless I run a line from the eye toward the outhaul end of the boom.


----------



## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Bene505 said:


> The attachment points that on the bottom of the boom slide. So there may be no way to attach the end of the reefing line outward of the eye in the sail. It would tend to be straight down from the eye. Unless I run a line from the eye toward the outhaul end of the boom.


Are those attachment points on the boom free floating, or is there a way to secure them in place? If not, you might be able to add some hardware to the track they slide in, that could act as a stopper to hold them in place just aft of the cringle.

The good news is that even if you just use them as is, you'll be WAY ahead of where you were previously.


----------



## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

Bene505 said:


> There's 2 lines for each reef. (Double line reefing?)
> 
> I don't think I'd trust a figure 8 knot. I read somewhere (maybe sailnet) about a better stopper knot that doesn't come undone, and converted all my figure 8s to it. Not sure of the name for it.
> 
> The bowline sounds the best. That and half hitches can't be beat IMHO.


That would be the double overhand knot. The problem with a figure 8 is that it will come untied from a stiff line without a load on it. If you keep tension on it then it will stay put, but then there are better knots for use under constant tension.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Yes, it's the double overhand knot.










The figure 8 knot and the clove hitch are banned from my boat, and for the same reason. They don't stay in place under varying loads.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

JohnRPollard said:


> Are those attachment points on the boom free floating, or is there a way to secure them in place? If not, you might be able to add some hardware to the track they slide in, that could act as a stopper to hold them in place just aft of the cringle.
> 
> The good news is that even if you just use them as is, you'll be WAY ahead of where you were previously.


John, that is the case. I'll have to rig a line that will act like a (one sided) traveller.

Or I could use my favorite knot, the very adjustable taut-line hitch that stays in place after you adjust it. (Note it is sometimes call the midshipman's hitch but I've seen that same name on similar but NOT suitable knots. So beware if it uses that name. Better to simply refer to this one as the taut-line hitch) Note also that on some more slippery lines (poly lines), you'll need two of these in a row. The second one (further up the main line) helps the first one hold fast.


----------



## geraldartman (Apr 9, 2007)

That's a tautline hitch. I have taught it to perhaps 300 young boys in my troop over the last 20 years. Required knot and would be able to put up real canvas tents and dining flies without it.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

JohnRPollard said:


> Are those attachment points on the boom free floating, or is there a way to secure them in place? If not, you might be able to add some hardware to the track they slide in, that could act as a stopper to hold them in place just aft of the cringle...


Great idea John. Thanks!!


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

geraldartman said:


> That's a tautline hitch. I have taught it to perhaps 300 young boys in my troop over the last 20 years. Required knot and would be able to put up real canvas tents and dining flies without it.


Yes, it's been my favorite for maybe 30 years. I use it all the time.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Bene505 said:


> There's 2 lines for each reef. (Double line reefing?)


Yup...that's what it'd be called. 



> I don't think I'd trust a figure 8 knot. I read somewhere (maybe sailnet) about a better stopper knot that doesn't come undone, and converted all my figure 8s to it. Not sure of the name for it.


Generally called a stopper knot. 



> The bowline sounds the best. That and half hitches can't be beat IMHO.


 If there's any chance you might need to untie it under a load, a round turn and two half-hitches are a better solution...but a bowline works for most reefing setups.


----------



## kgs113 (Dec 10, 2003)

I've been a big fan of the timber hitch. I have two reef points in my main and a pad eye for only one. Tried the timber hitch and it was very secure. BTW I have a loose footed main.
The Timber Hitch (Lumberman's or Countryman's Knot)


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Buntline hitch works well with slippery lines. That, with a seized tail, is what I use for my reef lines which terminate on eye straps on the side of the boom. I don't like that setup but it hasn't failed yet for 3 years and several thousand miles. Some people seem to have success running the reef line through the sheave, through the cringe, down and under the boom and then back to the Becket on the block. Boats with modern booms seem to have everything internal with usually only one reefing line coming out of the end of the boom. I never understood trying to reef with the reefing line coming out of the end of the boom, such a bad angle.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Sailboy, can you send a picture or a shetch of that? Too many Beckets and Sheaves. For a minute I thought you were talking about some English neighborhood you live in. (Also a picture of your setup if you have one.)

For the rest of us mortals, here's his buntline hitch:


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One problem with the buntline hitch is that if it is left in for any period of time, it basically becomes impossible to remove. The Bowline or Round Turn with Two-half-hitches are much better choices, since they're almost always possible to untie.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

You should refer to post #15 of this older thread

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/learn...g-vs-single-line-how-tell-what-youve-got.html

as to how to secure the bitter ends of your reefing lines. Read the post carefully as the answer is not obvious. You don't need any fancy knots or hitches, and the sliding eyes on the bottom of the boom are not attachment points.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sailboy-

One reason to use internal sheaves is to reduce the torque load of the reefing lines on the boom. The closer the sheaves the reefing lines use are to the centerline of the boom, the less torque they apply to it.



sailboy21 said:


> Buntline hitch works well with slippery lines. That, with a seized tail, is what I use for my reef lines which terminate on eye straps on the side of the boom. I don't like that setup but it hasn't failed yet for 3 years and several thousand miles. Some people seem to have success running the reef line through the sheave, through the cringe, down and under the boom and then back to the Becket on the block. Boats with modern booms seem to have everything internal with usually only one reefing line coming out of the end of the boom. I never understood trying to reef with the reefing line coming out of the end of the boom, such a bad angle.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Bene505 said:


> Sailboy, can you send a picture or a shetch of that? Too many Beckets and Sheaves. For a minute I thought you were talking about some English neighborhood you live in. (Also a picture of your setup if you have one.)
> 
> For the rest of us mortals, here's his buntline hitch:


Fine... I'll draw a picture. Words haven't been coming out of my head right lately... getting old sucks. BTW this is not how my boat is currently setup, but a setup I have observed on other peoples boats that seems to work.










I changed the color of the reefing line from green to yellow as it passes through the reef point.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> Sailboy-
> 
> One reason to use internal sheaves is to reduce the torque load of the reefing lines on the boom. The closer the sheaves the reefing lines use are to the centerline of the boom, the less torque they apply to it.


You mean its not just to make everything look clean and fancy??? 
There isn't any torque on the boom in the setup I posted above if the reef line is cleated off to the boom. Lines led aft is a whole other ball game...


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Well done Sailboy! Now we have another person to fear. We have to keep Giuletta from getting our pictures, yes. But Sailboy could just draw us doing something silly.

I see what you mean.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> You should refer to post #15 of this older thread
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/learn...g-vs-single-line-how-tell-what-youve-got.html
> 
> as to how to secure the bitter ends of your reefing lines. Read the post carefully as the answer is not obvious. You don't need any fancy knots or hitches, and the sliding eyes on the bottom of the boom are not attachment points.


My main is loose footed (now that I recall), but the lazy jacks cover is not loose footed. She has no other attachment points on the boom, except for the sliding eyes on the bottom. What to you suggest?


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Note the main is loose footed, but the lazy jacks cover is not. (I revised the earlier post.)


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Bene505 said:


> My main is loose footed (now that I recall), but the lazy jacks cover is not loose footed. She has no other attachment points on the boom, except for the sliding eyes on the bottom. What to you suggest?


The cover should have reefing line grommets/slits sewn into its foot area, just as a main with a boltrope foot will, to permit the reefing line to pass through the foot material so the reefing line can be secured to itself after passing around the boom.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

sailboy21 said:


> Fine... I'll draw a picture. Words haven't been coming out of my head right lately... getting old sucks. BTW this is not how my boat is currently setup, but a setup I have observed on other peoples boats that seems to work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The bitter end of the reefing line should be secured around the boom itself, as in the referenced post. If you secure the bitter end of the reefing line as shown, the reef will not be pulled both aft and down to the boom, it will be pulled only aft, resulting in a fuller sail than designed, not what you want when you are reefing.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> The cover should have reefing line grommets/slits sewn into its foot area, just as a main with a boltrope foot will, to permit the reefing line to pass through the foot material so the reefing line can be secured to itself after passing around the boom.


Sailingfool -- You are right!! I remember seeing those slits in the cover.

The light of dawn breaks, understanding it clear now. I'll put a bowline around the boom, through the slits in the boltropes sail cover (and under the loose-footed main), and then feed the line through the kringle. From there the line goes to the clew end of the boom and into/through the boom. At the goose neck end of the boom (the mast end), the line is held in place by cam style dogs.

Taa Daaa !!!!   

Lingering question: This will mean the line from the kringle to the boom will be vertical, so all the out haul force will be from that part of the line going from the kringle to the clew end of the boom. Is this sufficient?

Can't wait to try this setup. How long until spring? Where is the spring launch countdown clock. Oh the agony of waiting!


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Bene505 said:


> ... I'll put a bowline around the boom... At the goose neck end of the boom (the mast end), the line is held in place by cam style dogs.
> 
> ...


If you read the original post that I reference above, you will see that the bitter end of the reefing is not tied to the boom, but to itself...the cam style dogs are reduntant, of use only if you can't employ line stoppers near the winch. You do not want to have to set/unset the cams, you should have and use line stoppers at the winch.

To reef with a typical setup, 
1. Set the reefing line on its winch and trim out any slack
2 fully luff the main, lower the main to a premarked position on the halyard
3. hook the reef tack onto on the reef hook.
4. fully tension the halyard
5. trim the reefing line via the winch until the reef clew reaches the boom.

Trim the mainsheet.

You can leave the reefing line on the winch, until you need to do a deeper reef, to do so, set the stopper on the working reefing line and remove that line from the winch, put the next reefing line on the winch and repeat the above process.


----------



## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

> ... If you secure the bitter end of the reefing line as shown, the reef will not be pulled both aft and down to the boom, it will be pulled only aft, resulting in a fuller sail than designed, not what you want when you are reefing.


I'm going to quibble here. I would say rather that the problem with the illustration is that the reefing line is going to pull _down_ far more than it's going to pull aft. In other words, the attachment point for the bitter end is well situated relative to the reef cringle, but the bight of line coming from the padeye needs to be much farther aft in order to get sufficient outhaul tension.

So the illustration should be altered by shifting the padeye block well aft, and depicting the bitter end of the reefing line tied to or around the boom further forward of the padeye but slightly aft of the reef cringle.



sailboy21 said:


>


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> ... 3. hook the reef tack onto on the reef hook.


I don't have reef hooks.


----------



## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

Just joined this thread. Bene, my Beneteau setup on a smaller boat is similar. We also have aloose footed main with a stack pack, and it also has the slits in the stack pack, and I also do the bowline around the boom for the aft end. It is single line reefing. On the forward end of the boom the line comes out of the boom and goes up to a block fixed to the sail with a heavy duty attachment point as part of the sail equipment. The line then rund back down to a turning block at the base of the mast and then out to the sheet stopper and winch on the coach roof. There is a separate line and block for each of the first reef and the second reef. This generally works quite well and is easy to put in or shake out. The only problem I have is that every spring I forget the exact order of the lines, and the first time I reef one reefing line crosses the other and fouls me up. Some day I will remember to take pictures to guide myself.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

nitpicking the angular relationships in my 2 minute paint picture? Wow...


----------



## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

sailboy21 said:


> nitpicking the angular relationships in my 2 minute paint picture? Wow...


Sailboy, sorry about that. That wasn't my intention but I can see why you took it that way.

We were really just discussing the proper attachment points for the reef line -- your illustration came in handy for discussion purposes. Thanks for posting it -- it succeeds at illustrating your point and it's far better than anything I could have drawn.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Thanks Sailingfool and Tweitz. I can picture it now, with either the line tied back to itself (with half hitches, I would think) or with a bowline around the boom. Come spring I'll have to try both methods and see.

tweitz -- what you describe matches the diagram in my manual. My main doesn't have the built in blocks. My setup is different than the manual.

Also the boat is setup for double line reefing, done at the mast. (Dogs on the boom, no mast or deck hardware to bring the lines down and back.) I'd have to add some hardware to bring the lines back to the cockpit. That would make sense, so I'll hold off on getting reefing hooks.

The new deck hardware is going to be below a bunch of other things on the priority list (harness, tethers, jacklines, life raft inspection, rudder bushing double-check, keel rust, radar, adding a 3rd reef to the sail). I do like the idea of having the 1st reef stay at the mast and the second reef done from the cockpit. And the 3rd too, if so equipped.


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

You once sent me this picture. Did you get it from your manual. Add a fairlead and maybe a block and you could do the same thing.
One line instead of two.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A double-line reefing system is probably a better choice IMHO. YOu can read why it is *here*.


davidpm said:


> You once sent me this picture. Did you get it from your manual. Add a fairlead and maybe a block and you could do the same thing.
> One line instead of two.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

David,

I'm not sure if the dogs on the mast end of the boom would make a single-line system workable without having to be replaced. And if a double line system is better, it would be better to rig that up, IMHO.

Since I have to go to the mast to lower the main, I'll need to make some modifications there too. So this is probably a project for next winter. I'd love to get your take on which pieces of gear to buy and how to go about mounting them. Then I'll start collecting the pieces between now and then.

Regards


----------

