# USCG waits 3.5 hours after EPIRB!



## MarkofSeaLife

I guess so many hoax distress calls...
But waiting confirmation when the distress call is 400 nms from land seems rediculous.



> Coast Guard Joint Response Coordination Center Honolulu received an emergency position indicating radio beacon alert with a position over 400 miles north of Hilo at 11:23 a.m. Watchstanders called the registered owner who confirmed the vessel had gone out early that morning to fish, but neither party was able to make contact with the ship.
> 
> The Hercules aircrew launched at 3 p.m. once the alert was confirmed and a search pattern was established. They sighted a flare and life raft shortly arriving on the scene.


https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/USDHSCG/bulletins/1e4df44

Map checking needed here, too.
If they went fishing that morning and travelled 400 miles by 11am I want their engine!


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## Minnewaska

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I guess so many hoax distress calls........


Some hoax, some simple false alarms. I understand it's standard procedure to take the time for verification. That's why I find it crazy for so many to be sailing in New England without a life raft. You'll never survive the 50 degree water in a pfd, by the time they come looking.

On the other hand, it's also a reason to have another form of communication, that can describe the situation. An EPIRB signal says there is an emergency. It could be anything from a fully disabled, but buoyant ship, to a life threatening emergency. The USCG can't tell the difference or how to respond, by an EPIRB alone.

A sat phone would be the best, but a sat communicator, such as InReach is good too. Once they get a message, describing the situation, they won't wait further for verification and know how time critical the recovery is. VHF or SSB are helpful, if within range. Cell phone works, if close enough to shore.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Minnewaska said:


> That's why I find it crazy for so many to be sailing in New England without a life raft. You'll never survive the 50 degree water in a pfd, by the time they come looking. .


And if it was any later in the day people would be flopping around overnight.

I guess the death ratio on the first night would be huge... Wet people in a wet raft with shock.

Worse is overnight in a life jacket swimming.


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## Minnewaska

To be more accurate, New England waters are brutally cold in the Spring. Southern NE surface temps will warm in the height of the summer, but most of us will be sailing, with temps in the 50s for months. Northern NE waters never seem to warm. I expect 55 ish degrees, crossing the Gulf of Maine in late July.


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## capecodda

This was a commercial fishing vessel that was out probably for many days. Sister ship 20 miles away. Swamped by a big wave according to reports from the vessel.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm not expecting rescue within a few minutes if I decide to push the button. My friends who work for local CG have told me too many stories. It's a big ocean out there. One of my buddies flies fixed wing, they'd head go out first and try and locate as they got the range and can cover ground fast. Given sister ship in the area, 400 miles offshore, my guess, is that fixed wing to locate, sister ship to rescue was the most reasonable method. I think if I remember right a Jayhawk can do about 300 miles out.

'Being prepared' saved 8 Hawaii fishermen aboard vessel that san - Hawaii News Now - KGMB and KHNL

Glad everyone was ok.


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## denverd0n

Just did a quick search on the matter and found that upwards of 90% of EPIRB activations are false alarms. With it being that high, I really can't blame them for doing some checking before they send anyone out.


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## MarkofSeaLife

I have all the USCG duty room numbers in my sat phone. And the Australian one.
If I splash in and fire my 2 EPIRBs I can ring and confirm the situation.

Even in non-US waters I would call the USCG as they own the system, and some speak a type of English.
Calling my Australian rescue mob means they must call the country with the SAR responsibility or that patch of ocean.

Then it's just order a pizza and wait for delivery.


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## MarkofSeaLife

He bow of the fishing boat was reported to still be at the surface.
So a hydrostatic release may not have worked!

"The Category I bracket is designed to release an EPIRB when the Hydrostatic Release Unit (HRU) in the bracket is submerged in water to a depth of 4 to 14 feet (1.5 - 4m). The regulation specifies a range of depth for deployment to allow for different water temperatures which will affect the release depth. The Hydrostatic Release Unit needs to be replaced every two years."


Sorry, but when my boat is 14 feet down its a bit too bloody late! 

As for replacing the hydrostatic unit every 2 years, has anyone heard of that?? Most are older than the Arc.


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## Minnewaska

MarkofSeaLife said:


> .....As for replacing the hydrostatic unit every 2 years, has anyone heard of that?? Most are older than the Arc.


I forget exactly how it works on mine. It has a date tag and you either punch out the date you put it in service or the 2 year expiration date. IIRC, you don't do this until you bolt it in the unit. If so, I don't understand why it's perpetually good, in the spare parts locker, but starts to expire when bolted to the unit.

Still, I would like to know it will work. Admittedly, I have not replace the hydro release in about 5 years, because I never mounted the new EPIRB. It lives at the nav desk.


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## Don L

Haven't any of you been out sailing and listened to the 1 sided conversion between the CG and someone you can't even heard on the radio? How about all the times the CG is broadcasting that they received a message at xxxxxx xxxxx but can't confirm it. I listened to one a few weeks ago where a boat was taking on water and the CG was asking other boats to respond, but I never heard them say they had spend a response boat or Tow Boat US/Seatow.

It's the ocean, you probably should consider it lucky if you get a help in time.


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## Arcb

I guess a Herc cant really rescue anybody any way. Pretty much all they can do 400 miles offshore is drop a radio, pump and raft. The rescuing is going to be done by a surface asset. If no AMVER is available, its going to take a cutter a minimum of 20 hours at 20 knots to get there if one is locally available. 

Annual, or every other year servicing of hydrostatic releases is standard for commercial vessels. Its possible for water to intrude into the nylon casing over time and corrode the internal workings (spring, razorblade etc).


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## outbound

My understanding is cg copters are good for 200m out, then limited time on station and then 200m home. So you’re dependent on surface vessels in the main.
The epirb sends position and vessel ID. In this example likelihood of false positive would seems quite low given who and where signal was sent from. This report is quite troublesome.
Old saying “if you didn’t bring it with you .....you ain’t got it” would seems to apply. This is a warning to review your abandon ship protocol every time you leave on passage, repack your raft to keep it in date, go over your ditch bag and devices. 
Either they or a ship will come but it may take awhile.
Think setting off an epirb unnecessarily is like crying fire in a theater. Those individuals should held criminal or at least made to bear the costs of a false deployment.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Arcb said:


> I guess a Herc cant really rescue anybody any way. Pretty much all they can do 400 miles offshore is drop a radio, pump and raft. The rescuing is going to be done by a surface asset. ).


A plane, Hercules or P3 Orion can do a hell of a lot!

1) stay on site for many hours
2} assess situatiin.
3) drop life raft, food, water, medical kit
4)confirm position 
5) urge rescue ships from Top of the Green to Slightly in the Red.

And most importantly......

6) Let those folks know they're about to be warm, dry and alive, just hang on!

.


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## Arcb

MarkofSeaLife said:


> A plane, Hercules or P3 Orion can do a hell of a lot!
> 
> 1) stay on site for many hours
> 2} assess situatiin.
> 3) drop life raft, food, water, medical kit
> 4)confirm position
> 5) urge rescue ships from Top of the Green to Slightly in the Red.
> 
> And most importantly......
> 
> 6) Let those folks know they're about to be warm, dry and alive, just hang on!
> 
> .


Yes, and I will buy you a case of beer the day a Hercules recovers any one from the water. At the end of the day, you have to be able to hang on until a surface asset reaches you. If you are 400 miles off shore, and you cant hang on for 3.5 hours, you have made an error in your planning.

We don't know the whole storey here. We don't know what the operational status of the aircraft was. We don't know what the maintenance and fuel status was, we don't know where the crew was in their rest cycle, we don't know how many missions they had already flown that day.

If it took 3.5 hours to make the aircraft operationally ready for the mission, that's better than sending it up at three and quarter hours and not operationally ready in my opinion.


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## hellosailor

As ArcB says...assets are NOT always available, and that's been a problem in the Pacific before. Go to Congress, take hostages, get a better USCG budget and you can improve the response times.

"If they went fishing that morning and travelled 400 miles by 11am I want their engine!"
Given that as a base point, I'd want confirmation before sending out a$$et$ too.

And while a Herc is all well and good...To paraphrase James Earle Jones, "Where are they flying boats? They promised us flying boats!" PBY's proved their worth long ago.


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## RegisteredUser

I'm about to register an EPIRB.
Do they ask for phone # to dear friend/family who can confirm?


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## Arcb

RegisteredUser said:


> I'm about to register an EPIRB.
> Do they ask for phone # to dear friend/family who can confirm?


The Canadian Registration asks for Name, phone number, address for 3 contacts. I try to spread my contacts around to folks I am not likely to be sailing with all at the same time. My primary is my Mom, then my wife (she is not my primary contact because she sails with me so often) and a trusted work colleague.

A detailed description of the vessel is required, or in my case multiple vessels because I own several small vessels. Details of the vessel (or vessels) communications equipment are also required.

I have not done a US registry, but I am sure its very close to the same.


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## hellosailor

RU-
In the US you can go online and view the entire registration form. Plenty of room to put in information, plenty of space to add comments or instructions that a real HUMAN will be able to read. Some of the most professional and reasonable folks you will ever deal with, in or out of any government agency.

DO make good note of your online password and access, because you can always go online and make changes, which post to the system instantly. Like "As of 4/1/2018 until 4/10/2018 all of our contacts will be on a cruise ship and unable to respond to calls, so if both of our registered EPIRBS go off, please do not delay the response, we're going to be on a transatlantic crossing for real."

Very UNbureaucratic.


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## MarkofSeaLife

RegisteredUser said:


> I'm about to register an EPIRB.
> Do they ask for phone # to dear friend/family who can confirm?


Yes. More Next Of Kin than a family ought have.
Make sure you tell the idiots to leave their phone on and accept calls from unknown numbers.

And you put in your passage information. You can update it on their website as often as you like.


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## MarkofSeaLife

hellosailor said:


> And while a Herc is all well and good...To paraphrase James Earle Jones, "Where are they flying boats? They promised us flying boats!" PBY's proved their worth long ago.


Remember about 5 or 6 years ago that dude, his wife and 3 minute old baby heading San Diago to Marquess and the airforce sent a Herc and AIR-DROPPED a RIB and parachuted 4 guys into the water where they swam to the RIB, started her up and went to the distressed vessel and sailed her to till a navy ship picked them up.

Bravest guys in all humanity.

What was that dudes name? From cruisers firum.... Called himself Captain something.


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## SeaStar58

Minnewaska said:


> To be more accurate, New England waters are brutally cold in the Spring. Southern NE surface temps will warm in the height of the summer, but most of us will be sailing, with temps in the 50s for months. Northern NE waters never seem to warm. I expect 55 ish degrees, crossing the Gulf of Maine in late July.


Cape Cod diverts the Gulf stream so that North of it stays in the 50's possibly even the 40's until well past the 4th of July. Life Guards even in the Dog Days of Summer at beaches like Rye, Hampton or Salisbury calling for the blue lips to get out of the water was common when I was a youth living up there in the 1950's and 1960's.

WestPac puts survival time at 50 to 60 degrees F at 1 to 6 hours.
Westpac Marine | Hypothermia Chart

Where I reside now you're more likely to live long enough to be conscious when the sharks get you. :eek


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## hpeer

Back in the mid 70’s I was a radioman in USCG HC-130 and HU-16 aircraft. Elizabeth City, NC. We would stand watch, 1:3 or 1:4. 

A couple of us would sleep in the hanger. I would sack out on the electronics work bench. We would always have 2 aircraft at the ready; a HC-130 and a HH-52 helo. When the SAR alarm went off we could have the helo in the air in 15-20 minutes and 30-45 for the C-130, roughly speaking. 

I know one night I was the only one in the hanger. When the announcement came to launch the duty helo I walked out, opened the hanger doors, fired up the mule and drug the aircraft to the tarmack, and (IIRC, never a sure thing) fired the APU. In the meantime the pilots got roused, got their briefing and came to the aircraft. It would be similar with the C-130, the crew would assemble and each do their respective task. Flight Engineers were enlisted, they could do every thing but (legally) fly the plane. Smooth operation most of the time. I believe all our bases had some similar routine but did all my time at this one base.


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## MarkofSeaLife

hpeer said:


> When the SAR alarm went off we could have the helo in the air in 15-20 minutes and 30-45 for the C-130, roughly speaking.


Thats kinda what I thought.

How many false alarms did you have in those days?

Do the delays come from the next higher tier of command?


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## hellosailor

hp-
That's the way it is done, in theory. Or perhaps, the USCG budget went further back then. There should still be a good account on EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE - Outdoors Gear, Survival Equipment Review & Survival Information of a light aircraft that went down at sea in the Pacific some time ago, and the USCG response to their distress beacon. It was something like the station that could (geographically) respond had three aircraft, one down for scheduled maintenance, the second down for a breakdown, and the third out on another mission. Bottom line? The guys in the ocean were just going to have to wait.
Then some years ago, we placed a call to a USCG station on the south shore of Long Island. Wx had changed in the late afternoon from "light showers" to "severe thunderstorms all night" and we had engine and rigging issues, making it prudent to just bag the trip and get into shelter. Except, the south shore inlets can be the wrong place to be if you have no engine and less than full control of the sails, especially if you don't know the inlet. So it seemed like a simple prudent thing to call the USCG station at the inlet and just ASK them, what are the conditions?
Ah, yeah. No, they didn't know. Their 44(?) was out assisting a dismasted boat, had another call to make after that, but since we were also a few hours out...Just head in, they'd have their boat contact us before we got near the inlet.
Sure enough, about 1/2 hour out of the inlet, at night now, a blue flashing light goes roaring right past us in the fog...the 44 in question. The answer to the question of "What are conditions in the inlet?" asked three hours before? The crew on the boat still didn't know. After all, they'd been out. They skeleton crew at the station? Ugh, yeah, still couldn't walk out back to take a look. No crew available.
The boat crew were absolute professionals, insisted on coming alongside and giving us a tow so "conditions" wouldn't matter. 
But sometimes? There are just *no* resources available.

A couple of years after that, an acquaintance was leaving NY harbor, heading down the NJ coast (again in nasty wx) and his boat was reported to be running too close to the coast and possibly with no one on board. Except, the wx had turned so nasty that the USCG and the NJ marine patrol both were literally unable to launch anything. The top of the mast was seen the next morning, boat had sunk. The man was presumed lost at sea.

And that's also part of the "newer" logic that is used in rescue. If you need to send four men out in life threatening conditions, in order to rescue one? No go. At a certain point, you don't take the risk, because it risks too many of the human resources. That's been a change and not an entirely unlogical one.


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## mbianka

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Remember about 5 or 6 years ago that dude, his wife and 3 minute old baby heading San Diago to Marquess and the airforce sent a Herc and AIR-DROPPED a RIB and parachuted 4 guys into the water where they swam to the RIB, started her up and went to the distressed vessel and sailed her to till a navy ship picked them up.
> 
> Bravest guys in all humanity.
> 
> What was that dudes name? From cruisers firum.... Called himself Captain something.


Yeah I remember the guys name was Eric Kaufman and the boat was named Rebel Heart.


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## Arcb

The above timeline sounds reasonable to me, I have observed similar timelines for front line response units, when assets are available or not otherwise engaged.

However, I don't think SAR units are able to self deploy, they are deployed by an operations centre. I believe the operations centre triages calls, they don't send their high value assets to every call, if you did, you would have Hercules deployed to simple tow jobs and kids in capsized canoes.

If that triage didn't occur, they'd run out of assets very quickly. By phoning the fishing boats owner to get Intel, and by arranging the search pattern prior to sending the aircraft, they may have been able to maintain that aircraft on standby for an extra 3.5 hours so it was there for, ready for an emergency, rather than already employed in a search, resulting in not having an aircraft on standby and ready to go.

When that aircraft is circling 400 miles off shore, it's not available to respond to other calls. Hercules have many capabilities, but one of their greatest strengths is the search part of search and rescue. It sounds like these folks in the water had a 406 EPIRB, which means their location was more or less a known and should be for the next 48 hours. The folks managing the situation very likely knew the vessels safety equipment, just guessing but probably life boat, life raft and immersion suits. From the Management's perspective, they might not have perceived an immediate need to tie up the Hercules on an emergency search.


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## lillia28

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Remember about 5 or 6 years ago that dude, his wife and 3 minute old baby heading San Diago to Marquess and the airforce sent a Herc and AIR-DROPPED a RIB and parachuted 4 guys into the water where they swam to the RIB, started her up and went to the distressed vessel and sailed her to till a navy ship picked them up.
> 
> Bravest guys in all humanity.
> 
> What was that dudes name? From cruisers firum.... Called himself Captain something.


I think that was Rebel Heart, but he was a 100Ton Master or similar.


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