# Smallest boat you can live with



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Some recent threads about frugality, dreams vs reality, and the small bluewater boats, have me thinking about my boat choice. I forget where I first read this, but the idea of choosing *the smallest boat you can live with* really has driven my choices.

I like this approach b/c it's about finding the right balance between too large and too small. Too large and the boat becomes unmanageable (both physically and financially), but too small and it becomes too austere, and limits your ability to be self-sufficient.

So I'm curious -- how did you choose your current boat?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

MikeOReilly said:


> ...So I'm curious -- how did you choose your current boat?


Smallest boat with an enclosed head. We do mainly daysailing, and the enclosed head made my wife more comfortable with the idea of going out for the WHOLE day.

No regrets, since the boat is a good size for 2-4 day cruises too (in protected waters). Very easy maintenance, so we can focus on sailing and less on maintaining.

By having a smaller boat, we save enough in slip fees and maintenance to pay for chartering a much larger boat when we want to go out for a whole week. We've done that a couple times.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Mike most all of us want a larger boat then we have! I'd be "happy" on a 38-42 ft boat. I'd feel like the queen of the Nile if I owned a 100 ft + J- class antique yacht LOL 
My Oday 30 is "adequate"


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## appick (Jan 20, 2014)

My Columbia 29 MkI was just the right price. We liked the design and asthetics so it was a done deal. That being said it is for sale as we'd like something just a tad bigger!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I chose my current boat, like most I have owned on being a good deal or value....at the time of buying it, and one I can refit to my liking etc...

it happens to be my biggest one yet, but definitely not large by any means...solo or doublehanded

I think for me it has always been about best value...only once did I set out to buy a specific boat and that was a folkboat...I looked for the best deal there too

once having it...that was at the limit size wise for myself...while I did hate crouching all the time...the known benefts in performance, ease of handling, single handing, ease of anchoring, maneuverabilty, size of outboard needed, low cost of refitting and replacing parts like rigging and sails all influenced me more than say the size parameters, it was 1 con versus many many pros in my mind at the time...

it had an enclosed head and fully legal holding tank with pumpout...not bad for a 25footer

still miss it

just for kicks mike there was a saying that was VERY popular for a while and might still be(although I see a new niche of frugal crusing again) that went something like this

"BUY THE BIGGEST BOAT YOU CAN AFFORD" 

dont know why it became so popular but I think it started a trend where bigger was better and "safer" but based on hearsay not actual facts...

the reasoning for that crowd was that the bigger the boat you could afford the more comfortable, ease of motion and stowabilty you gained making cruising "easier"

but what people failed to see there was that often times they didnt calculate the cost of refitting, engine size, or repowers, cost of rigging and how it escalates so wildly when going up a few "boat" sizes etc...and they often ended with a subpar refitted boat whereas gooing a bit smaller size would of left them more cruising kitty money, or better equipment for the trip etc

a lot of people fail to realize who much costs go up exponentially when going up say from a 27footer to a 32 or 34footer...

there is really a big difference


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

When I was establishing the parameters for my 'forever' boat it had to be something I could manage single handed as I approach senility, have big water tanks 150g+, standing headroom [ I am 6'3" ] and have a long bed that is reasonably wide.

One of the features about the boat I finished up buying is the size of the shower. So many modern boats have fairly bijou shower compartments, not mine, I can shower with a friend and save water.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

sneaky!


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Our first "real" sailboat was a Chrysler 26 with an outboard engine for $4000. It slept 6, and we had great times on it.

Then we got a 1971 Irwin 38 that slept six. We had great times on it, but it was much more work.

Then we got a 1973 Tartan 41 that slept six. We had great times on it, but it was even more work.

Then we got a 2000 Beneteau 47.7 that sleeps six. We are having a great time on it, but work is substantial, and annual slip fees are more than the cost of the Chrysler 26. Thinking back, we had every bit as good a time on the Chrysler as the Beneteau. But we just sort of expect more now that we have grown.



MikeOReilly said:


> Some recent threads about frugality, dreams vs reality, and the small bluewater boats, have me thinking about my boat choice. I forget where I first read this, but the idea of choosing *the smallest boat you can live with* really has driven my choices.
> 
> I like this approach b/c it's about finding the right balance between too large and too small. Too large and the boat becomes unmanageable (both physically and financially), but too small and it becomes too austere, and limits your ability to be self-sufficient.
> 
> So I'm curious -- how did you choose your current boat?


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Before you can decide which boat, you have to have a firm idea of how you'll use it. My 32' is perfect for me, and what I have done, am doing, and will do. Doing something else, I could go smaller or larger, depending on what the something else was.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Need - diesel power, enclosed head and shower, hot water , roller furling, gps, autopilot, power windlass and six berths. 

Of those, I have..... gps.... :-(


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## mbauer013 (Apr 7, 2014)

Heck, I share a boat through a club right now because I'm still figuring our what size would fit. We've nailed it down to larger than the Ensign we currently sail!


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Your question is germane to me. We are currently in the process of buying a new boat, selling the old, and you know what one of the absolute criteria for the new boat was? It had to be smaller than our current boat.

We broke things down into how we intend to use the boat. Based on that, we created a list of needs and wants, and our goal became to find the SMALLEST boat possible that had everything on the list. Also, I've come to believe that displacement is a better measure of size than LOA is.

Our Formosa 41 is 50ft LOA with it's bowsprit, but I used to think "it was really only a 41." However, we weigh as much as most newer 50 footers due to our overbuilt hull construction, which means bigger masts and sails in order to get a decent SA/Displacement ratio. The bigger stuff means more expensive to maintain, just like a true 50 footer would be...

PBeezer's point can't be emphasized enough. Think about how you will use the boat, and from there, think about what features, design characteristics, and gear will help you use better succeed at using the boat the way you plan to use it.

Again in my example, my Formosa 41 is not a very good boat for the PNW, but it was bought to live aboard and be capable of going to Australia. Once in Australia, we planned to sell it before returning, because it is not suitable to us for cruising up here. Now, we think we may have found a boat that is more suitable for the kind of cruising we do up here, AND will take us to Australia. Since it's suitable for up here, we now can plan on bringing her back too... But our needs are specific, and very different from just about everyone else, so the boat that makes sense for us, won't make sense for someone else. Then, it was a matter of getting the smallest one that would do the trick so we'd have as little expense and maintenance as possible.

MedSailor


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

I "lived" very happily with a C&C 24 for several years. I didn't live on it. just for day sailing and weekends with wife, 3 kids and a dog. 
It was the right price and got us out sailing instead of dreaming.
I would have bought a Cattalina 22 or anything in the size range if price had been right.

Sold her, Did other things. Missed it went looking for another boat. Wanted slightly bigger and a bit more comfort. Looked at 26's 27's thought a 30 would be nice. almost bought a 32. bought a 35.
I have a bunk which is long enough and wide enough. She is older needs work, no heat, no fridge, no hot and cold water, no shower, No spray hood. Oven doesn't work. 

Big deal, She sails great. I have no intention of sailing across oceans.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Length only, is not the only thing to consider. For instance, I almost bought (and would have if I hadn't found this boat at the last minute) a Hunter 320. Still a 32 footer, still usable within my needs, and, as it turns out, it would have been the "smarter" buy.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I had five things I wanted in my "last" boat;
1) A real, rectangular, common size bed; we have a standard queen.
2) A real, walk in engine room, so maintenance wasn't a hellish experience.
3) roller furling everything, and we love it! Infinite reefing, even ddw.
4) Electric main winches; a huge help when single handing a bigger boat, in docking, as well as sailing.
5) A real pilot house! Sorry dude, one can't have everything.
Bought the boat in August 2009, right at the bottom of the market, with winter approaching; an extreme buyer's market.
Many things just happened to be better than any of her sisterships that we've been on, but that was just luck.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Mike, I think there is a lot of truth in what you're suggesting. It's hard for a lot of folks to fathom, especially when you're new. But with the significant increase in cost as you increase size (it isn't linear, at least in my experience), I think the "typical" person (i.e., someone without a lot of discretionary income) would be better off carefully defining their needs and then looking for the smallest boat that meets those needs. Medsailor's comments are a good illustration of this.

There are also some externalities that come into play that some may not consider. Depending on where you are, marinas may not be set up for a boat over a certain size (i.e., they don't offer slips long enough) or with a draft that exceeds a certain depth, or height restrictions may come into play. So, as you define your "needs" you also have to take into account not only HOW you'll use the boat, but WHERE you'll use her.

Capta, what boat DO you have?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I agree with John it depends entirely on what you want to do with the boat. We are in the process of deciding what to do with Ainia when we get back to North America next summer. She is wonderful for extended cruising - strong, comfortable, safe, and reasonably quick. If we are going to be staying on the Great Lakes probably too much boat and too much cost for dockage, winter storage, maintenance, for the short season.

If we sell I can see anything from a Nonsuch 22 to about 35 feet depending on what we want to do.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

The main criteria that I had when looking for my boat was that it has to be easily transported. Being in the military, I've moved around a lot over the years. I even grew up around the military so even now at 35 yrs old, I haven't been anywhere for more than a few years.

When I was looking at boats online, I thought of getting daysailors or weekenders but wanted to eventually do some traveling around. Then, a crazy idea struck me so I figured I would get the largest I coudl legally tow without permits. That shortened my list of potential boats. I was about to take a look at a couple Cape Dory 27s then my Nor'sea was listed. It happened to be moved closer to where I was moving to in TN a couple years ago so I thought I would take a look at it first. Needed some work but went for it.

Personally, I think it's perfect for me. I have it on a lake right now, so I can use it to build up my experience and learn more then I can move it to the east coast to continue growing my skills. It should be good to handle anything I happen to encounter.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Thanks everyone. Some great comments. I wasn't sure if I was articulating my question/musing well enough. I shouldn't have feared.

You're right about knowing the intended use. If I was day-sailing, or even just planning to do a few weeks per year, I'd choose a different boat. If I was a solo sailor (thankfully I'm not), I'd definitely have a smaller boat. Location would also matter. But within all those parameters one still faces the question of how to choose.

As Christian said, there seems to be this tendency to go after the _biggest_ boat one can afford. I suppose this is encouraged by brokers, our affluence, and by our consumerist culture in general. Everyone says the average cruising boat size has been increasing, so too with the average house size, number of cars, etc... I guess it's no surprise to see boat sizes increasing.

Keeping things as small as possible sure keeps the costs down. As many of you have said, costs go up exponentially with size. And that's an interesting thought about using displacement over LOA or even LWL. Either way, it's not a linear expense curve.

But it is also possible to be too small. I would not want a cruising boat that I could not stand in. Crouching around all the time would wear thin pretty quick. I want a boat with a functional galley, and an enclosed head. I want one with adequate tankage and storage space. And obviously I want one that is well built and can stand up to the expected conditions.

I guess it's about understanding what one really needs. And then having the wisdom (or painful experience ) to follow through.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Between forty to forty two is good for me. But I will take 39 or 45 if she speaks to me. A fifty nine feet is way too big. :laugher


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

I have thought of what boat I would get if I went smaller and I end up looking over the Nordic Folkboat. I just like the lines of that one. It would be hard to resist.


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## doug1957 (Dec 13, 2011)

At the last of every summer cruise for 2.5 weeks I wish I had I had 6 more feet. In the winter I dream of 6 more feet. In the Spring while getting ready to launch, I'm happy with the 28 and sometimes wish for less. We could go anywhere in this boat, and the discussion now is cost/benefit of the next six feet. Like the Nor'sea the Shannon is a go anywhere boat, it's just about adjusting to what's needed vs. what would be nice. And the budget.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

If I could afford the boat and the maintenance, not to mention if I was content with my own ability to sail her I'd happily go to plus 45' (medium displacement, comfort first speed second). Reality is that its none out of three so lets keep her smaller. 

Our 42'er is just about right. She's not uber modern so interior is smaller than most production boats built today but it is pretty damned comfortable. She has (and yes I first thought this a great waste of space) a separate shower cubicle plus generous sized head. Acceptable sized galley and with a U-Dinette plus settee opposite she is a nice cozy home for two while an aft quarter cabin makes for good storage space or guest accomodation. Side and rear cockpit lockers plus a lazarette is pretty good to have not to mention a nice stretch outable cockpit that is well protected. 

Yes she has a few negatives as well. They are in the main things we can and are fixing as we go along but the point is that for two people in a medium displacement boat 40-45' really should be enough. Below that you start to either lose living. tankage or stowage space and often the worst thing you lose is a decent berth for two at anchor. 

Our old boat (34') has a small head with head room that is just a wee bit tight for me and having shower in main heads compartment is not really the best solution. To boot her v-berth is too far forward and lacked tootsie wiggle room. That made her simply too tight for two people to live aboard. Maybe if those two people were 30 years younger things minght be different but we alas are not 30 years younger.

edit ... I should add that we don't currently live aboard but we do try and spend up to three days a week anchored out. If all we wanted was a daysailor that we could occasionally overnight and/or do the occasional multi week cruise on then 34' would be quite adequate.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

I got the biggest little boat I could live with and afford long term...

At 27' shes "transportable" (not a trailer sailor) so I can dry slip my boat at the marina and not pay dockage fees and take her home in the winter so as to not pay storage fees (plus it's a joy to work on at home/indoor storage)

At her size I have standing head room enclosed head full galley and enough sleeping berths for me and the crew/guests, and enough displacement to be comfortable on the Great Lakes.

I don't think I would enjoy anything smaller/shorted/lower and can't afford anything bigger/more expensive to maintain/keep...

I love my boat.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> I have thought of what boat I would get if I went smaller and I end up looking over the Nordic Folkboat. I just like the lines of that one. It would be hard to resist.


the marieholm too!


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## ReefMagnet (May 8, 2008)

The wife and I recently moved up from a Vega 27 to a 33 footer. We use the boat as a weekender but are planning to do some extended cruising in the near future. We considered the scenario of a long term cruising liveaboard like a Hans Christian and looked at boats from 33 to 42 feet with the majority being over 36 feet. I personally enjoy smaller boats from the perspective of handling and expense, but the wife wanted the whole hot and cold running water and shower thing. After looking at a fair amount of boats, we ended up with a 33 footer that suited me size and price wise, and it has a Tardis like interior complete with hot and cold pressure water and shower for appeasing the missus.

Whilst the Vega was very much like camping for us two oldies, it was ideal for weekending. The 33 is very much a "real" boat and, for us, it fulfills the majority of our requirements and we find it has plenty of space for a couple.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I started overnighting with a friend's 22-foot O'Day (a nice little boat). Not much more than a tent with counter, but fun to sail. Then I went to a 26 footer with standing headroom (I'm pretty short), a 2-burner alcohol stove and slightly more counter space. We then bought what could have been the final big boat, a 34-foot ketch (Grampian 34). This had a great aft cabin with a nice double bed and real closet. Galley was acceptable, with oven and cooler. Space was small, but comfortable for two. Lots of storage. Best of all, we could afford her.

Our current boat, a 37-cutter (Rafiki 37) became financially available thanks to the recession. She's slightly larger, but set up with much larger tankage, better storage, galley, deck layout, and generally more seaworthy. I miss the aft cabin, but for two people we are very comfortable. At this point I really don't need anything more. 

When we went looking for our current (and hopefully last) "smallest boat" we knew we wanted something in the 37 to 42 foot range. Our Rafiki is actually 36.75' so we're even smaller than that, but so far she feels perfect for our needs.


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## Delezynski (Sep 27, 2013)

Jill and I moved aboard our Not'Sea 27 in 1996. Lived aboard 24/7 and departed to go cruising full time in '04. LOVE IT!

Due to a family thing we now cruise about half time, 6 months a year. When not cruising she is on her trailer in a storage yard about 10 min from our shore side place for US$50.00 a month. We could circumnavigate OR just trailer cross country for a new place.

Just trailed to New Orleans for this years cruise now in Al. heading to Fla.

Our boat is our bedroom, the world is our living room.

AND, Jill can handle the boat by herself if something happens to me, a BIG safety item!

Greg


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

If I can ever get Dragon Wing back in the water and stop the rain-induced leaks, I think she'll be a great fit for the way we'll use her. An enclosed head, 6'3" headroom, a separate aft cabin, and a nice dinette will be good for us for occasional long weekends aboard. If we find that we really get into the lifestyle, I don't think I'd go much bigger than 30, unless we're going to really start sleeping over regularly or going on longer cruises. If we do that, then I'd like to find a boat with a separate shower area in the head. So far, I think that's really the one thing that's "missing" from her from a long-term comfort perspective. A walk-through or split transom and catbird seats would be nice, too. May see about adding changing the stern rail to allow for walk-through and for seats. Then I'll "just" need the shower...


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

For me 32' is perfect - I can singlehand easily, can take 6-8 folks out for a daysail, can cruise with 2 in relative comfort, can take her out well beyond the sight of land and handle most any weather short of trop storm without too much drama (passing broken up and flaming Catalinas and Hunters all the while :laugher). 

Someone on this forum once said their boat would sail 8, feed 6, sleep 2, and I like that line of thinking. 

I have a friend with Morgan OI 41 that is very comfortable, stable, and predictable, but has so much acreage of gel coat and Dacron that needs care and maintenance.........

Also - FWIW - I chose a 30+ year old boat because of the price and relative quality level compared to newer boats.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Another part of HOW you'll use the boat, is WHERE you'll use it. Two of the best things about my boat are the 46' clearance and 4 1/2' Scheel keel. Which are definite pluses for East Coast/Gulf cruising. Having shoal draft, without a wing or bulb makes ungrounding easier, and with my clearance, I've been able to even get under 45' fixed bridges. One of the things that attracted me to the Ontario is that it was designed for just what I'm doing with her.

Another thing to keep in mind though, it's a lot easier to deal with a little too much boat, than a little too little.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

My non negotiables:

Encapsulated keel
Skeg hung rudder
Centre cockpit
En-suite cabin with a double bunk for a 6'4" and a 5 ft f/all
En-suite double visitors accommodation.
Safe, strong, storm resistant
Fastish passage-maker.

This because my usage will soon be long term cruising in the South Pacific.

Fridges, watermaker, genset, etc. are all negotiable but as it happens, I will have them all by the time we leave.

So, short story, I already have the smallest boat I would be happy with - she's 44ft.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

MikeOReilly said:


> So I'm curious -- how did you choose your current boat?


The implication of your question is size, so most of my factors aren't relevant: island berth to avoid crawling over a partner on the way to the head, separate shower in the head, good point, speed in a seaway, galley a foodie can operate in, ....

With respect to size I determined that in the middle Chesapeake Bay the cost of slips over about 40' goes up faster than boat length AND the availability of such slips declines quickly. Even mooring balls for larger boats are hard to come by unless you sink your own. Since I knew I would be based in Annapolis for some time a 40' boat made sense for my needs.


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## wuffiesails (Jul 15, 2012)

Not much emphasis in these posts on loads. While there are exceptions, in general loads go up with boat size, which may not be problematic day-to-day but matter greatly when we all inevitably run into weather. Wrestling a jib to the deck because the furler jammed while sailing double-handed in a surprise 30 knts is going to be far easier in a 34' boat than a 44' boat.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

I think focusing on one aspect of boat design such as "smallest" or "largest" might not be the best way to look at things. For me it's about finding the right balance. 

We're very happy with our 30 footer on the bay, but we're moving to the Keys in three years. With the move will hopefully come more free time than we have now. 

That has us asking questions like "how will our new cruising grounds change our sailing?", "will we be spending more time aboard, sail further distances, start doing trips to the islands?".

So we're trying to quantify what is really important to us. Then we'll figure out a budget. From there we'll come up with a list of boats tick most of the boxes. 

The most surprising thing for me is I can see cats creeping onto the list.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

We are strong believers in the concept: cruise in the smallest boat you can stand to live on.

We owned 5 boats over 30+ years starting with a 22 ft boat, maxing out at 52 ft, and ending up at 38 ft. The 52 had 3 air conditioners, a generator, power winches, power furling, 15 electric pumps, water maker, 2 heads with separate showers, etc. I believe there were never 7 consecutive days when everything worked. To replace a sail, I needed assistance just to move a sail bag. When everything worked, I single handed it. When things broke, not so much. 

The 38 has simple systems, we had it built so that everything is accessible. There's nothing I cannot fix, but its so simple hardly anything breaks. 

Our mission is coastal cruising and day sailing with an occasional passage for a couple. Admittedly if we were full time cruisers, I'd go bigger, but I'd try to live in the low 40's, trading up some complexity for more comfort.

On a small boat, you'll see the same sunset, you'll feel the wind more (less like driving a truck), you'll fit in smaller anchorages and marina's, you'll spend more time sailing/less time fixing stuff, you'll sail to moorings more often, and you'll spend less money. Operating costs are exponential increasing with length.

The ratio of fun / dollars is highest on the smallest boat you can stand - IMHO. I don't think we ever had more fun on any boat than we did on the first one, a little Pearson 22 with worn out sails, a compass and depth sounder for navigation, and a little outboard to push it when the wind died.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We chose ours with two things in mind. 

First, it is our weekend home for 6 months of the year. We are aboard from Fri to Mon nearly every weekend from May through October. We are not interested in a six month camping trip. We've had our share of the minimalist thing. We have and will do so in short bursts, as necessary.

Second, we entertain a lot. Nearly every weekend we'll host friends, family, kids, etc. Often with 6 aboard. The deck salon allows everyone to be above without climbing all over each other. We tank 220 gallons of water and hold 77 gallons of waste. While we teach proper conservation, non-sailing guests are just more comfortable without the fear of running out of water and using home-style pump driven faucets, electric flush toilets, air conditioning and a genset that will run their hair dryers.

We literally could not do what we want to do with a much smaller boat. If it were cramped and less desirable to our guests, they wouldn't want to come and that would ruin it for us. Today, they complain if we don't invite them often enough.

Will it be our forever boat? Can't say for sure. One day, it may feel like too much for us to physically handle, but she's fairly easy to sail. At least for now.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Whatever size, whatever type, whatever brand, whatever whatever, you choose a boat that suits your situation. Not because it suits somebody else's mantra of what the "right" boat is.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I love how some of you are able to cruise in under 30' boats. I do wonder if we've gone too big with the 37-footer. It's not just our size, but also the displacement that is big with our Rafiki (28,000#). Everything is hefty on this boat. 

Most would find our living space pretty small. Compared to a modern 37-footer we are pretty small down below. Unlike modern boats which maximize living area, our boat emphases side deck and sailing space. Still, she's very comfortable for the two of us (and our cat).


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

JimMcGee said:


> I think focusing on one aspect of boat design such as "smallest" or "largest" might not be the best way to look at things. For me it's about finding the right balance.


Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that any size is the best size for everyone, or that small is better than large. To turn this question around (if this is a question), once you've identified_ the boat you can live with_ (layout, draft, tank capacity, etc.), how are you then guided?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

in my opinion mike you have chosen a very reputable and well designed boat and at 37(old style sizing jaja) you have a perfect compromise for a couple...

for 2 a mid 30s to low 40s is pretty darn good size wise...

I think you have done well so run with it!

cheers


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

MikeOReilly said:


> Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that any size is the best size for everyone, or that small is better than large. To turn this question around (if this is a question), once you've identified_ the boat you can live with_ (layout, draft, tank capacity, etc.), how are you then guided?


Ahh, got you.

I think it really comes down to an individual boat. How does she feel on a test sail? How does she handle in close quarters? From the practical perspective I'm looking at maintenance items and upgrades I'll have to do to make her ours compared to similar boats.

Then there's that intangible something -- does she feel right.

I don't know how to put "right" into words but you probably know what I mean.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

MikeOReilly said:


> Some recent threads about frugality, dreams vs reality, and the small bluewater boats, have me thinking about my boat choice. I forget where I first read this, but the idea of choosing *the smallest boat you can live with* really has driven my choices.
> 
> I like this approach b/c it's about finding the right balance between too large and too small. Too large and the boat becomes unmanageable (both physically and financially), but too small and it becomes too austere, and limits your ability to be self-sufficient.
> 
> So I'm curious -- how did you choose your current boat?


Mainly, it has to be big enough to hold all your stuff. Where to put that grand piano and candelabra can be a problem in a 27 footer. 

It it gets too big to handle you can always buy gadgets or hire crew to take up the slack.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

JimMcGee said:


> ...Then there's that intangible something -- does she feel right.
> 
> I don't know how to put "right" into words but you probably know what I mean.


Yup. It's that _je ne sais quoi_ of boat ownership. She's got to be right for you.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

On the other hand, I know of no boat that I wouldn't wish something about it to be different. Just can't over think this one. Get the boat that suits the majority of your needs and desires, not all of them.


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## Nicklaus (Apr 23, 2012)

We - mainly my wife - made a list of "must haves" when we were looking to upgrade from our 27 footer.

Top of the list was a cockpit large enough to entertain more than one other couple without making everyone move with each tack. That was closely followed by a v-berth that was large enough for us to fit in comfortably - I'm 6 ft and my wife is 5'11". Our old v-berth was tight and crawling into it was reminiscent of loading the Mercury space capsule. Handling was also a big concern for me. My wife didn't love - maybe greatly disliked would be more accurate - our old boat. It was too tender and she never felt at ease if the weather piped up.

Also, I wanted something that was big enough to give us the option of doing some distance cruising if the opportunity ever arises.

In the end, it was just kind of a "gut thing." We got the boat that felt right, didn't break the bank, and was pretty enough to make me turn around every time I leave the dock. Our 35 footer also has a separate shower stall, which is a nice feature on a boat that size, I think.

Here's a quick rundown of our buying process - On Board Cordelia


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

MikeOReilly said:


> I forget where I first read this, but the idea of choosing *the smallest boat you can live with* really has driven my choices. Of course the smallest boat you can live with doesn't mean it is a "small" boat".
> 
> So I'm curious -- how did you choose your current boat? We chose our current boat to address the things we didn't like about spending time on our current boat (a 39' boat). That became a 4.5' longer boat, but 2.5 feet of that is just stern lockers that had nothing to do with it.


In the end my wife and I chose our current boat based on the layout and liveability of the boat. We fully were willing to give up on some salty thingie on a forum that would only be of use maybe 1% of the time in order to made the boat more enjoyable the other 99% of the time. In the end we decided a cruiser boat wasn't really about sailing, it was about living.

But also in the end it turns out the new boat is just plain easier to handle. Period!


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## Nicklaus (Apr 23, 2012)

MikeOReilly said:


> Most would find our living space pretty small. Compared to a modern 37-footer we are pretty small down below. Unlike modern boats which maximize living area, our boat emphases side deck and sailing space. Still, she's very comfortable for the two of us (and our cat).


We have never had overnight guests on our boat. It would, honestly, be cramped and not very private. But, like you said, it's plenty of room for the two of us. We actually wanted to maximize outdoor space because we knew our friends - who aren't sailors or "boat people" - would only want to commit to day sails. An extra cabin would be nice storage space, but otherwise a waste.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Nicklaus said:


> We have never had overnight guests on our boat. It would, honestly, be cramped and not very private. But, like you said, it's plenty of room for the two of us. We actually wanted to maximize outdoor space because we knew our friends - who aren't sailors or "boat people" - would only want to commit to day sails. An extra cabin would be nice storage space, but otherwise a waste.


Our boat can theoretically sleep six, but I really wouldn't want to. Like most boats under ~45 feet, it's really just built for two. Our cockpit is not large, but we've hosted parties for up to eight. It's pretty cramped when the guitars come out, but everyone makes due.

I honestly don't _need_ any more space that what our 37-footer gives us. That's not say I wouldn't use more space if I had a bigger boat, but at this point in our sailing and cruising, my partner and are perfectly comfortable in our big/little ship.


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## Delezynski (Sep 27, 2013)

MikeOReilly said:


> I honestly don't _need_ any more space that what our 37-footer gives us. That's not say I wouldn't use more space if I had a bigger boat, but at this point in our sailing and cruising, my partner and are perfectly comfortable in our big/little ship.


You are SO correct! In our years of cruising we have met and cruised with MANY boats, most all larger than ours. *One thing they/we ALL had/have in common is a LOT of stuff! We all gather "stuff" to fill the sace we have.* 

It's about the same in a shore side house.

Greg


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Delezynski said:


> You are SO correct! In our years of cruising we have met and cruised with MANY boats, most all larger than ours. *One thing they/we ALL had/have in common is a LOT of stuff! We all gather "stuff" to fill the sace we have.*
> 
> It's about the same in a shore side house.


Ain't that the truth Greg! We have a small house by most standards (850 sq ft.) and still we have a ton of crap. We're in the process of moving on board, and I'm overwhelmed with what to do with it all. Thank g-d we don't live in a big house .


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## SailorSarge (Mar 22, 2014)

Hum ether big enough to live on after the divorce

Or 

Small enough to be lost in the Divorce and easily replaced


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

I guess is depends upon how long we are going to live on her.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

I will answer this in two parts. First is how big do I need. If i were single, and had no dogs, My life would be lived on a Dana 24. Very nice little boat. I would add a small generator, and an AC for the nasty hot days, and add tankage, and a watermaker. It would be my round the world boat, and be super cheap to cruise in.

The boat we NEED is a tayana 37, Its the smallest we could comfortablly live in with our animals.

I stumbled onto our tayana 48 by accident. I was looking for a seven seas boat, I knew the T37 would be great, and this boat was inside ou price range, but needed a ton of work. Hense, 48' tayana. Its a huge boat. I am glad thou, as it is more kind at sea I believe then a dana 24. or a tayana 37.

I hope someday someone takes me out on a tiny seven seas boat, I would love to feel how they move in the water.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

My notion of the _smallest boat I can live with_ is intimately intertwined with the idea of keeping boat systems as simple as I can live with. Again, this is not the same as the same as saying "as simple as possible." It's about finding ways and means that fit my needs.


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## FourthCoast (Oct 14, 2013)

appick said:


> My Columbia 29 MkI was just the right price. We liked the design and asthetics so it was a done deal. That being said it is for sale as we'd like something just a tad bigger!


You boat is the "little bigger" one I would like to have. Need to find someone with a dinghy who wants my 23 footer.

Scott.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

"Live with" for me means being able to spend a summer cruising on it, but not living aboard full time. It should fit a couple comfortably, and two couples for long weekends or some shore stays.

Many boats around 30' meet my performance and cruising space goals. My ideal boat is probably something like a J/35 that is more performance oriented but with the interior space of most 30' boats, but a J/35 would cost $10k more to purchase and $3k/year extra in moorage compared to a 30' boat.

I tried a 25' boat, but not having standing headroom was a real problem for me for cruising longer than a week. There was also a lot less covered storage space than on our Pearson 28-2. Going from a Catalina 25 to our Pearson 28-2 was a massive jump in available space. I've spent enough time on 32-35' boats to know that the next 4' size jump won't feel as large.


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## Magnolia (Dec 21, 2012)

Well, we are getting ready to move onto our Columbia 8.7 which is a 28' 7" boat...so, I'm going to say that size is the smallest we could do. We are very happy in our little boat...but...I know I could do awesomely in a 35' boat.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

In the end, the answer is completely dependant on what size boat someone already has. Someone with a 30' boat thinks a 35' boat is big. But someone with 40' boat thinks a 35' boat is a tiny box of a boat.


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## Allen Phinney (May 10, 2013)

hello captain monk here my boat the wind rider, is a 26ft sail boat was given to me for giving her a good home. she was on the dry for over ten years. have been redoing alot of cleaning an redoing the inside. hope to sail her with my wife. we are both new at sailing. i went to sailing school last year. i feel comfrotable that i can handle her ,andenjoy the great lakes sailing this year. then next year would like to try the icw, from lake erie to florida. time will tell.fair winds to ya


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Welcome Allen, and congrats on the new (old) boat. A 26-footer is a great size to get going on. It's big enough to have all the typical capabilities of a bigger boat (galley, head, electrical system, plumbing, engine, etc.), but it's small enough to so costs are low and sailing is easy.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

We did an extensive: Western Hemisphere, search for the sailboat for us after we lost a GulfStar 50 ketch, 2 years ago.

Our criteria was:

1. A Ketch.
2. A large enough aft cabin to have a full size (or larger) bed.
3. 2 heads with at least 1 full shower - not the hand held type.
4. Center cockpit.
5. Full galley
6. Clothes washer & dryer
7. At least 2 other cabins / staterooms.
8. A very spacious & comfortable main salon / saloon.
9. Lots of storage space.
10. All the engine we could get.
11. A Pilot house cabin design.

We found and could afford and bought a 1986 Ta Chiao CT 56.

Good luck.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

DougSabbag said:


> We found and could afford and bought a 1986 Ta Chiao CT 56.


Wow, that's a lot of boat (in my world) Doug. Sounds very comfortable.

I'm curious, and this is an honest question, was this the smallest boat you can live with, or the biggest boat you can afford? That's really the point of this thread (if there is a point). I'm curious what drives people's choices. Your clear list of needs certainly requires a largish boat.

Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Back in the 80's I bought a Cape Dory 25D. It had standing headroom, an unbelievably big head and a great layout, and a single cylinder Yanmar diesel (that you could theoretically hand crank if you had to). Single, it would have been a cruising dream, at least in the Caribbean. It took heavy weather like a champ, in fact, it didn't really get going until you had 20 -25 knots of wind. We'd sailed in 40 -45 knots and it was actually fun.

For the right couple, it would have been plenty big enough.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> ....I'm curious, and this is an honest question, was this the smallest boat you can live with, or the biggest boat you can afford? That's really the point of this thread (if there is a point)......


Interesting juxtaposition.

The smallest one could live with may even be bigger than one can afford.

I guess it exposes the question of what it really means to be willing to "live with". While sacrilege, I would say all of us could live without a boat at all.

I think what we're really discussing is, "how much less than you can technically afford would you be willing to live with"

No way I'm going to answer that, because politicians would take the rest.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Interesting juxtaposition.
> 
> The smallest one could live with may even be bigger than one can afford.
> 
> ...


Actually Minn, what I'm considering is the notion of _enough_. What do actually need? It's not about sacrifice, its about knowing yourself and knowing your needs. We're trained in this culture to go beyond needs -- to pursue our wants; to spend all we can afford. So this is the question: what's the smallest boat you can live with? What are your actual needs.

I already know your needs far exceed mine. No problem. You know what you need, and I suspect you have the right boat for it. But if you could afford more, would you? Perhaps you can afford more, why not go bigger & fancier?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

oh no! dont start 1foot itis cause then it becomes 3ft itits, 5 ft and so on

soon you will find an ocean 71 too small!

jajaja


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> Actually Minn, what I'm considering is the notion of _enough_. What do actually need?
> 
> ........I already know your needs far exceed mine. No problem. You know what you need, and I suspect you have the right boat for it. But if you could afford more, would you? Perhaps you can afford more, why not go bigger & fancier?


What does need mean? Certainly not life or death, no one needs to go to sea. You can't avoid the want to some degree.

When we bought this boat, we actually looked at several more expensive manufacturers. Most were in the 50 ft range, some were similar size. We chose this one because it best suited all the things we wanted.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

MikeOReilly said:


> But if you could afford more, would you? Perhaps you can afford more, why not go bigger & fancier?


Interesting that my wife and I discussed this topic this morning. There is a chance our financial situation could improve for the better shortly and we were talking about our current budget and choices for picking a new boat, and we both came to the realization that short of a lottery-type winfall where we could get something brand new, or custom, our wants and needs wouldn't change much with the ability to afford more.

We really do want a smaller, more easy to handle (and dock) boat, so we're very stuck on the idea of <30,000lbs. Fortunately we are able to (barely) afford what we do want in our size range.

MedSailor


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

We went with what we had - a Vega 27, Over the years and sea miles we have looked at bigger, newer boats. Every time we come back to the same conclusion: The trade off(s) for what we have are not worth it. We would be giving up too much of what we like to get more of what we do not need.

Given the cash to buy a new forty footer, we would opt to make Lealea new again (With a few modifications and equipment upgrades) and use the rest to finance five years of cruising.

Lealea "Drinks six, feeds four and sleeps two", and holds (Almost) all our stuff. 

The way we see it, the only advantages of a larger boat are more room for stuff and a higher theoretical cruising speed. (We do not consider more room for guests an advantage) Given the considerable disadvantages that accumulate by the LOA foot, we are content with our little 27 footer.

Of course one may have to consider ego. People will ask "How big is your boat?" and you will have to say "27 feet", then listen to the inevitable response - "That's really small!". Always difficult for some men to hear


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Minn, I would say the answer to your question is found in MS and Vega's posts. Only you can answer the question. Perhaps it's about how you approach life. There is no single right answer.


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

MikeOReilly said:


> Wow, that's a lot of boat (in my world) Doug. Sounds very comfortable.
> 
> I'm curious, and this is an honest question, was this the smallest boat you can live with, or the biggest boat you can afford? That's really the point of this thread (if there is a point). I'm curious what drives people's choices. Your clear list of needs certainly requires a largish boat.


Mike,

Well, we are liveaboards and do some chartering, so these were our minimum requirements for our true / long term comfort, and for our business success.

We could have afforded a tad more, but this boat met our requirements.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

bingo chartering


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

christian.hess said:


> bingo chartering


Well, to be honest with you, the "chartering" concept is the rationalization for us to buy what we really wanted.  Whether we actually do any charters or not.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yeah on monohulls you got to be at least in the upper 40s to be anywehere near competitive in chartering

some would say an ocean 71 is small these days when comparing to cats and other new charter boats

much has changed


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

We really "require" the dimensions and configuration of our current boat for our sailing and living comfort and safety. Which mirrors what a "charter" customer would also expect.

We hold ourselves to at least the same level of requirements a charter customer would.... we deserve it, and want it too, just like they do.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I hear ya bud...no issues with me...once you said chartering it all makes sense

cheers


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

vega1860 said:


> Of course one may have to consider ego. People will ask "How big is your boat?" and you will have to say "27 feet", then listen to the inevitable response - "That's really small!". *Always difficult for some men to hear*


I'm sure that accounts for many people to upsize to a bigger boat. 

I love my 27' boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> Minn, I would say the answer to your question is found in MS and Vega's posts. Only you can answer the question. Perhaps it's about how you approach life. There is no single right answer


I suppose, but you seem drawn only to the answers that suggest smaller and question the larger ones.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

id be happy with a nice 50 footer preferrably old wooden and beaitiful

if money werent and issue either Id absolutely go bigger especially if I had a family so it wouldnt feel so cramped and the wife can have here girly space etc

electric winches, windlasses, roller furling, the works

I wont lie money has a lot to do with what decisions we make boat wise


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

MikeOReilly said:


> Welcome Allen, and congrats on the new (old) boat. A 26-footer is a great size to get going on. It's big enough to have all the typical capabilities of a bigger boat (galley, head, electrical system, plumbing, engine, etc.), but it's small enough to so costs are low and sailing is easy.


Exactly, costs are low or at least manageable for me and that means I can continue to "live" with the boat it's not a burden or taking away from other parts of my life so I can continue to enjoy it...

Short of winning the lottery (I don't even play) I don't see my finances changing drasticly upward or down ward so the thought of 4'itus don't tempt me...that would just take me to a place I don't want to be...

Would a smaller boat be even more economical....probably... but then I would be giving up some of the niceties I want and think I deserve..

My boat suits me fine...


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## Chas H (Sep 6, 2013)

As much as I enjoy my 24 Mirage, sailing is so much fun I could be happy with a Laser. I've always enjoyed sailing small boats and pushing them to the limit. Tip over, that's OK. Right 'er and sail on!
-CH


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Mike,

Your thread and this discussion was forefront in my mind yesterday. After some frustrating starts and stops in searching for a boat, yesterday we decided to cast the net a little wider and go look at some boats that we had previously written off. Chiefly among these, were boats that absolutely suited our needs, but were too big, as down-sizing and decreasing maintenance costs as well as ease of docking by one person were items we want.

My boat broker, in order to try and really tempt me, even offered to take my boat in trade at full asking price in order to put together a deal on a boat with a very motivated seller. She's an amazing boat (a nauticat 43)and is HUGE. 

She is another example of how "length doesn't matter." Our current boat is 41', so what's 2 extra feet? Also, our boat is 50'LOA and this boat is less, so she's smaller right? Not a chance. Our boat has 6 berths, this boat has ELEVEN. Our boat has fairly low freeboard, and beam and is 28,000lbs, this one is 35,000lbs. Sails, rigging and winches are proportionally (exponentially?) larger as well. This boat has a walk in (crawl in?) engine room, 2 heads, and the freeboard is so high that the cockpit sole is above eye level when you're standing at the dock. She probably has more sail area with her sails furled (windage) than we do with a couple sails hoisted. 

I have to admit though, once below, she's like a palace, and the offer of trade in WAS tempting. I've always found that I always wish the boat was 10' bigger when I go below, and 10' smaller when docking. 

Standing at the wheel in the cockpit, over 10' above the dock, feeling the windage, I tried to think how I would dock the boat. I imagined planning how I would pull her out of the current slip. I imagined how it might be possible with bow and stern thrusters and a big max prop.... I realized that I was really just paralyzed with fear. She just seemed waay to big, and the freeboard makes single handed docking an impossibility. 

How small can we live with? Not exactly sure, but I think we're homing in on it. I do know how big is too big though.... 

MedSailor


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

I could be perfectly happy cruising short distances on my Cal 25. It has a dedicated galley and a small head with a flushing toilet so I don't have the "Camping" feel of dragging everything out of storage at meal time or have to $^it where I eat afterwords.

My wife on the other hand found it too cramped for comfort so we bought our San Juan 34. 

Recently the bilge pump failed due to faulty wire below the cabin sole and a month later discovered 6" of sea water in the cabin. The insurance company wrote us a check that had us considering buying another, larger boat. After much shopping and soul searching and despite what the critics say about how OIR influenced boats are supposed to behave, I decided to restore/upgrade our current boat because it hits all the points on our must have list at a fraction of the cost of buying a new used boat and starting the personalization process all over again.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> Your thread and this discussion was forefront in my mind yesterday. After some frustrating starts and stops in searching for a boat, yesterday we decided to cast the net a little wider and go look at some boats that we had previously written off. Chiefly among these, were boats that absolutely suited our needs, but were too big, as down-sizing and decreasing maintenance costs as well as ease of docking by one person were items we want....
> 
> How small can we live with? Not exactly sure, but I think we're homing in on it. I do know how big is too big though....


Sounds like quite the mighty ship MS. Tempting for sure, but that's the essence of the seduction around us. We are all wooed with bigger, faster, newer, stronger... I feel it all the time. We could easily afford to purchase a larger, newer, fancier boat. But I know we don't need anything more than what we have.

... but that big newer boat sure looks tempting. Where did you say that Nauticat is being listed .


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## Nicklaus (Apr 23, 2012)

I have found the definitive answer to your question... How much boat can you wax before your arm falls off?


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Nicklaus said:


> I have found the definitive answer to your question... How much boat can you wax before your arm falls off?


Why would you wax a boat? If I have time on a sunny day, my decision choices look something like this:

1: Go sailing
2: Fix something that really needs fixing
3: Fall asleep in the hammock after drinking a beer.

MedSailor


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## grampianvoyager (May 8, 2014)

The largest boat that will fit on a trailer. I had a few other criteria but had to settle for less. I know myself. This too will pass. and I don't want a marina sending me a storage fee.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I don't really care what type of boat I get. I seem to just get random stuff that I see for sale. As long as it the older, stronger, thick fiberglass. 
I started looking this winter for a bigger boat than last year, because last year was too small. My criteria of things to improve was:
Have heater
Have real galley
Have standing headroom
Be able to sail on ocean
Autopilot
Upgraded dinghy
Shower(did not achieve)
Not a fix upper

That's about it, I was going to look in the 32 foot range but I'm a bit impulsive and would rather have a nice boat, than be looking for a nice boat. So I got this one. Now I have a nice boat and can concentrate in getting it ready, and mostly, concentrate on sailing. I mostly want to cruise and not boat shop, or restore. Just cruise. It's much more fun for me to research places I want to go, than varnish things. I know a lot of people enjoy restoration and making and building things, but I do not.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> Why would you wax a boat? If I have time on a sunny day, my decision choices look something like this:
> 
> 1: Go sailing
> 2: Fix something that really needs fixing
> 3: Fall asleep in the hammock after drinking a beer.


You beat me to it . I waxed once. Then decided I had better things to do with my life ... like drinking beer .



northoceanbeach said:


> I don't really care what type of boat I get. I seem to just get random stuff that I see for sale. As long as it the older, stronger, thick fiberglass.
> I started looking this winter for a bigger boat than last year, because last year was too small. My criteria of things to improve was:
> ...
> I mostly want to cruise and not boat shop, or restore. Just cruise. It's much more fun for me to research places I want to go, than varnish things. I know a lot of people enjoy restoration and making and building things, but I do not.


Great example North. This is why I always recommend people start with a small cruising boat that has all the basic systems; something in the 24 to 27 foot range. Get a solid, functional cruiser. Get out and sail and cruise as much as possible with this boat. You may find this size is perfect, but if not, you'll learn what you really need without spending a ton of money.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

Some friends say I need a bigger boat. 
I say "no" and am quite happy with what I have. I purposely bought 'big' to start with; just to avoid foot-itis. Large enough to have another couple over for dinner and just snug enough to discourage longer-term engagements. 
Now That I'm used to it, I *could* see me handlin' a few feet more; but why? I already have all the boat I need......for me!  
Lower fees, lower maint and fewer spendy systems. 
What's not to like?


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## Kostis (Apr 18, 2014)

Reliant 41


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Actually, the question is better approached from the other end, so to speak ... What's more boat than I need?


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## Kostis (Apr 18, 2014)

reliant 41


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

No way. The reliant 41 is a POS. Everyone who's anyone knows that.


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## Kostis (Apr 18, 2014)

what a POS?


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

> No way. The reliant 41 is a POS. Everyone who's anyone knows that.


What's the point in that kind of comment? Whatever it might be, the comment was uncalled for.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

PBzeer said:


> Actually, the question is better approached from the other end, so to speak ... What's more boat than I need?


I wouldn't phrase it this way. I'm happy to sail a boat that is more than I need. Heck, I'd sail a boat with a helepad! What I don't want to do is get a boat that limits what I can do in a negative way.

Too big to singlehand, too big to dock by myself, too big to approach an unknown slip in high winds, too big to pay the bill for new sails/rigging.... these are the things I don't want.

I have no idealistic need to only take what I need when it comes to boats. I'd happily take a boat so big that when she was launched, the sea level would rise... but such a craft would limit me.

I'm looking for as few limits as I can live with, balanced with as much as I can get. I guess that's the tightrope I'm walking right now....

MedSailor


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## harmonic (Sep 10, 2013)

I started with a 24 foot ex racer got her cheap and did a couple of years cruising on her loved it everything was easy small sails small anchors,easy to dock as I usually sail single handed.Dad got crook so I sold it and took his boat over its a 32 foot steel full keel yacht with a bowsprit making her about 38 feet oa,Its a huge change I still singlehand her but have to be a lot more carefull now as it doesnt turn very sharp and has a spear up the front.quite a challenge in tight marinas.I wont be going any bigger as it feels huge after my first boat I am slowly getting her ready for offshore.When I was young up the pacific the average size cruising boat was about 32 feet now its more like 50 feet more boat more problems I reckon.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

harmonic said:


> Dad got *crook*


Harmonic, I have never heard this word used in this way, could you explain it to an American.  Thx.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

You just have a different perspective on need than I do Med. To me, a boat that limits me, in any way, is more boat than I need.


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## dacap06 (Feb 2, 2008)

This is a very interesting question, as it greatly occupied my thoughts for over a year.

Before you can determine boat size, you need to determine what you want to do with it. I knew I wanted to try coastal cruising in the boat, so it would need to: 

 be inexpensive enough that I can afford to buy it
 be tough and well built to survive a blow (think Chessie thunderstorm)
 carry enough food and water to sustain us for at least 3 days
 be small enough to single hand for day sailing
 sleep at least 2, preferably 4
 sleep people at least 6 feet tall comfortably (whatever comfortably means to you)
 have an inboard engine (so prop stays in water in chop)
 have enough headroom so that I can stand up straight
 enclosed head with holding tank to last 3 people 3 days if we're careful
 have enough storage space to hold clothing for 3 people for a week.
 preferably sail well to weather and have a good turn of speed but this is a desire more than a requirement

My Islander 30 mostly fits the bill. It lacks enough storage so I pretty much have to live out of a duffel bag. It also has only a 25 gal water tank, but I can supplement with those 5 gal water jugs when I need to (so far, haven't needed to while sailing the Chesapeake).

I was looking for the smallest boat that would fit those categories. Originally, I was angling for something 27 or 28 feet but I didn't find one that small I could stand straight in. There were several 30 footers that did, though.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Only you can answer what the right boat is for you. We chose the boat we have because my wife liked the boat. A 4,000 sq ft kite doesn't scare her and the boat fits our budget.



MikeOReilly said:


> Some recent threads about frugality, dreams vs reality, and the small bluewater boats, have me thinking about my boat choice. I forget where I first read this, but the idea of choosing *the smallest boat you can live with* really has driven my choices.
> 
> I like this approach b/c it's about finding the right balance between too large and too small. Too large and the boat becomes unmanageable (both physically and financially), but too small and it becomes too austere, and limits your ability to be self-sufficient.
> 
> So I'm curious -- how did you choose your current boat?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

wind_magic said:


> Harmonic, I have never heard this word used in this way, could you explain it to an American.  Thx.


Crook .... not well, ailing. A crook is a bad guy presumably that comes from "crook" as in bent but crook has then been adopted to describe anything a bit off.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

tdw said:


> Crook .... not well, ailing. A crook is a bad guy presumably that comes from "crook" as in bent but crook has then been adopted to describe anything a bit off.


I knew bent was a bit off, but is he crook too?


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

PBzeer said:


> You just have a different perspective on need than I do Med. To me, a boat that limits me, in any way, is more boat than I need.


Naaaaw, actually I think we're on the very same page.

The comment about as much boat I can get is prefaced strongly with not wanting to be limited. A mega-yacht that doesn't limit me is an absolute fantasy, not a reality.



MedSailor said:


> I wouldn't phrase it this way. I'm happy to sail a boat that is more than I need. Heck, I'd sail a boat with a helepad! *What I don't want to do is get a boat that limits what I can do in a negative way.*
> 
> Too big to singlehand, too big to dock by myself, too big to approach an unknown slip in high winds, too big to pay the bill for new sails/rigging.... *these are the things I don't want. *
> 
> ...


Despite my broker trying to really tempt me into a 200K Nauticat 43 for "only" 100K plus my boat in trade, we're just not willing to go that big. I know it's a really good "deal" but she's 35,000lbs and that's too much. Everything is massive on that boat...

MedSailor


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

tdw said:


> Crook .... not well, ailing. A crook is a bad guy presumably that comes from "crook" as in bent but crook has then been adopted to describe anything a bit off.


Thank you for explaining it, tdw.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

PBzeer said:


> What's the point in that kind of comment? Whatever it might be, the comment was uncalled for.


I was just kidding. A fat guy posting repeatedly reliant 41! I don't even know what it is. I assumed he was kidding as well.....


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## harmonic (Sep 10, 2013)

wind magic crook means ill his legs stopped working doctors cant figure out why real bugger as he was a real sailor.many miles under his belt.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> Only you can answer what the right boat is for you. We chose the boat we have because *my wife liked the boat. A 4,000 sq ft kite doesn't scare her* and the boat fits our budget.












 MedSailor


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Med, my point is, buy a boat for the way you sail. We've raced extensively and are very comfortable with big downwind sails. We have a decent budget that supports the type of boat we prefer. If you aren't comfortable with big downwind sails maybe a frac rig or split rigs are a better fit?

The OP opines "what is the smallest", I think a better question is "what's right" for my needs, budget, skill, sailing location............

Small, here you go..........


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Thanks Shock. This weekend we spent the entire weekend looking at a whole host of boats that are larger than we want/are comfortable with. We were exploring the question of "how big are we comfortable with" deeply. In the end, we feel very good about the boat size range we're sitcking with. Not too big, not too small.... just right.

Largely the just right, is that it's just right for _how we sail and how we use the boat_, as you have pointed out.

I still think that if you're married to a woman that likes 4,000sqft of spinnaker up you win at life.  I'm married to a woman that is excited to go offshore with me and lived aboard with me for several years, so I'm winning too. 

MedSailor


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> Med, my point is, buy a boat for the way you sail. We've raced extensively and are very comfortable with big downwind sails. We have a decent budget that supports the type of boat we prefer. If you aren't comfortable with big downwind sails maybe a frac rig or split rigs are a better fit?
> 
> The OP opines "what is the smallest", I think a better question is "what's right" for my needs, budget, skill, sailing location............
> 
> Small, here you go..........


But that wasn't the original question, the question was not how big of an RV should I get, but the smallest boat you can live with. Not what you want or think you should have. When I was sailing last year in the northwest, alot of those big boats never even took their sail covers off. Probably it's too much hassle to raise and lower 4000 square foot spinnakers with just you and your wife when you are only cruising 9 miles. At a certain point people just choose a boat for comfort and they mise well have gotten a powerboat. Smaller boats encourage you to sail. I'm not saying that if I had a bigger boat I wouldn't often be disinclined to raise the sails myself. It's just something people should think about.

Don't they say like 99% of sailboats never cross an ocean? Think about typical use. How often do you sail? How often and for how long do you typically cruise? There of course are all sorts of people and all sorts of needs. It seems to me that people usually get bigger than they need. There are benefits to smaller boats. If I had a forty foot boat and a twenty foot boat and had a beautiful afternoon to go for a sail. I think the 20 would be more fun. If I was going across the ocean the forty would be a better choice, though still, I think for the sailing I want to do, which is extended cruising the smallest would be:

1 person: 28
2 people: 31
3-4: 36+


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## khammett (Sep 20, 2013)

Smallest?

I say 25 feet long.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

MedSailor said:


> Thanks Shock. This weekend we spent the entire weekend looking at a whole host of boats that are larger than we want/are comfortable with. We were exploring the question of "how big are we comfortable with" deeply. In the end, we feel very good about the boat size range we're sitcking with. Not too big, not too small.... just right.
> 
> Largely the just right, is that it's just right for _how we sail and how we use the boat_, as you have pointed out.
> MedSailor


Yeah..... We changed our mind. We could have gone the smaller boat, but for just a little bit more money and a little bit of a bigger boat, we could get a WHOLE LOT MORE. So, we did.

In the end our new ride is a Nauticat 40, which you could argue is 1 foot less than our Formosa 41 and our new LOA is 40 whereas the Formosa's LOA was actually 50 with the sprit. The weight is close with the Formosa being 28K and the NC40 being 31K but I don't really feel like we're down-sizing at all. Certainly not in complexity! The new ride has a diesel gen-set that is nearly as big as the Formosa's motor, it has TWO air conditioners, 3 fridge/freezers, an electric winch, a sauna (yes it does), and more electronics than downtown Tokyo.

So, we almost downsized in a significant way, but in the end we caved and got the more complex boat.










MedSailor


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

MedSailor! Congratulations on your boat purchase!

She looks to be a great selection! I think you chose very well indeed.

Fair winds,
Doug


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## Hush34 (Dec 12, 2013)

We have a PSC34 and feel it is the perfect size for us...we are a crew of two with infrequent visitors...it depends on the number of peeps you have around. I would not put six on a 30 footer and head for the Caribbean.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Congrats on the new boat. The Sauna is certainly unique!



MedSailor said:


> Yeah..... We changed our mind. We could have gone the smaller boat, but for just a little bit more money and a little bit of a bigger boat, we could get a WHOLE LOT MORE. So, we did.


It seems to me like the real costs of a larger boat aren't the upfront costs, they are the ongoing costs. I could have gotten a J/35 for incrementally more than my Pearson 28-2. I'd love the increased performance, but my monthly costs would go up 25% (just in moorage) and my routine maintenance costs would also increase by quite a bit (sails would be close to double the price). Overall that makes the small increase in upfront cost turn into a large increase in ongoing cost.

I can also see how this is different for a day/weekend/local cruising sailor and a long term cruiser. Someone who is cruising for years at a time and rarely uses local marinas doesn't pay much moorage and so the extra length isn't as big of a deal.

Hopefully your new boat is one that suits your needs and on-going budget well. For me staying smaller was all about keeping my boat budget under control while having a boat that was well suited to my needs (which are likely different than your needs).


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Alex W said:


> It seems to me like the real costs of a larger boat aren't the upfront costs, they are the ongoing costs....
> 
> ...Hopefully your new boat is one that suits your needs and on-going budget well. For me staying smaller was all about keeping my boat budget under control while having a boat that was well suited to my needs (which are likely different than your needs).


EXACTLY! We learned that from our Formosa. LOA and Displacement are two big factors that determine ongoing costs. Funny how length on deck is the often quoted figure. Systems complexity is the third big factor, and well, we've swallowed that particular anchor now. 

The LOA of our 41' boat was 50'. 50' slips are expensive and much harder to come by than 40s. Our boat was heavy, so she needed big sails and a big motor to move her. The big rig and sails needed big winches and lines and stays to go with which are all expensive to maintain/replace. If she was a 41ft boat that was 41 LOA and weighed 1/2 what she did, she'd be a lot cheaper in the long run.

Ongoing costs, as well as the worry that overly complex boats make for lots of breakdowns and maintenance can turn into a reality which cut down into your beer drinking and hammock time. That fear, was eventually over-ridden by the better design of the 40, this particular well-kept specimen being available and the lack of good NC 38s on the market.

Financially I'm in a much better place than I was (or thought I'd be) than last year, so we feel that the risk of spending more on upkeep is not one that will ruin our ability to build a kitty and still go. We're also so used to having so little as far as luxuries on our sailboat that hopefully when something breaks, we won't miss it as much as someone that sailed for so many years relying on the luxuries we've never had. Heck, I've never even had an autopilot (that wasn't made of bungees), I've navigated tricky shallow areas with only a leadline, and I've never owned a GPS that didn't run on AA batteries or a chart that "plots."

We'll see, maybe I'll curse the complexity of systems, but for now, I'm going to enjoy running my 2 air conditioners from my diesel generator and alternate between going in the hot sauna and back out into the crispy cold cabin. Then I'm going to play with the lesure-furl boom and electric winch and just watch it go up and down. 

MedSailor

PS Update from the trucking company. The truck is on it's way and the boat **might** be here in time to take her out for the 4th of July!!!!


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> Financially I'm in a much better place than I was (or thought I'd be) than last year, so we feel that the risk of spending more on upkeep is not one that will ruin our ability to build a kitty and still go. We're also so used to having so little as far as luxuries on our sailboat that hopefully when something breaks, we won't miss it as much as someone that sailed for so many years relying on the luxuries we've never had. Heck, I've never even had an autopilot (that wasn't made of bungees), I've navigated tricky shallow areas with only a leadline, and I've never owned a GPS that didn't run on AA batteries or a chart that "plots."


There are GPSs that *don't* run on AA batteries??



Congrats MS. Amazing looking boat. And we all know that there's no such thing as firm plans when it comes to cruising. Hope we cross wakes one of these years. You've definitely got the party boat .


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

I wanted standing headroom, my wife wanted an enclosed head. So our boat is 29ft. Had a 42ft ketch, cost waaaay too much for everything.


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## tgzzzz (Sep 7, 2005)

MedSailor said:


> Yeah..... We changed our mind. We could have gone the smaller boat, but for just a little bit more money and a little bit of a bigger boat, we could get a WHOLE LOT MORE. So, we did. ... The new ride has a diesel gen-set that is nearly as big as the Formosa's motor, it has TWO air conditioners, 3 fridge/freezers, an electric winch, a sauna (yes it does), and more electronics than downtown Tokyo... MedSailor


Let's see how it plays out in a coupla years ... when the honeymoon's over.  I'm sure it's a nice condo but the essence of sailing is sailing not button mashing. And name something that goes out of date faster than electronics. Your heaven sounds like my hell.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

tggzzz alludes to the classic approach-avoidance conflict many sailors have. With the gismos you can single hand the 40-50' boat. This allows the average retired or semi retired couple to cruise or snowbird. Absent the AP and supporting electronics, the various ways to get weather info and stay in touch actual sailing to new places becomes more problematic. However, now going through the learning curve I realize all too well every addition adds complexity, dependency ,expense and maintenance/time requirements. But with out these additions likelihood of becoming a marina queen increases.
The other issue is camping versus comfy living. Once above ~40' you both have your space. You are not tripping over each other to do simple activities of daily living. Quality of life improves dramatically and your wife won't bail on you but rather look forward to the new destination.
My last boat was a great boat- a PSC34. After a week my wife couldn't wait to get off. It required a another level of diplomacy to wiggle around each other or wait your turn. On the current boat this is a non issue. Yes the flat screen is not necessary but watching the Yanks v. the Sox is great. Yes, diesel heat and the AC are unnecessary but when too cold or too hot personalities go south and so does thinking leading to unsafe behaviors. Yes two heads are unnecessary but a blessing when two couples are on the boat. Yes three multidisplays are unnecessary but makes passagemakng more secure and its great to not suit up or go down below to see whats going on. On a cold wet day hiding under the hard dodger with AP controls and a screen in front of you makes a single handed watch in the early AM fun not a chore with music playing softly in the cockpit speakers.
If you plan right and don't go so large that you are totally dependent on the power winches and can switch over to DR and a winch handle I think the honeymoon will never be over and your honey will greet you with a kiss at the change of watch. Problem is there are increasingly fewer true sea boats being built and more and more condos.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

outbound said:


> If you plan right and don't go so large that you are totally dependent on the power winches and can switch over to DR and a winch handle I think the honeymoon will never be over and your honey will greet you with a kiss at the change of watch. Problem is there are increasingly fewer true sea boats being built and more and more condos.


We were very cognizant of going too big, and deciding not to downsize (but also not upsize) took a lot of debate and discussion. Part of how we felt about our Formosa 41 was that she was too big in some ways. She wasn't too big for us before, but now that we have a kid (and another on the way) she WAS too big.

Sounds counter-intuitive doesn't it? Basically, she wasn't set up for single-handing at all, and we quickly realized that once the little tyke goes mobile, boating becomes a single-handing operation with one parent on kid watch and one sailing the boat. Suddenly, "honey can you help me flake the huge mainsail" or even "can you hold her head to wind" aren't possible. So, a boat we could easily single-hand was top of the list.

Many of the conveniences we have support that idea (and lots are just total fluff). The lesurefurl boom for example is a great asset as reefing, raising and lowering the biggest sail on the boat is now easy. They have a good reputation for reliability and unlike in-main furling there is less to go wrong and raising and lowering can be easily achieved the old fashioned way if it breaks. This may mean not needing to disturb the off watch for reefing. That would be nice. The bow-thruster may enable single-handed docking more often than without.

The electric winch is totally unnecessary. The running rigging zig-zags all over the boat and the angles are horrific. I'm looking forward to re-running some of the rigging and I expect I can reduce the friction in the system significantly.

As for the rest of the toys, I see tggzzz's point and that is always going to be a fear with the choice we've made, but on the other hand, I hope that Outbound is right. We've been doing this for 15 years without any of the toys and I don't plan to let myself get dependent on any of them. I may use them, but I don't plan to become dependent on them.

You know what my favorite new toy in the picture below is? It's the full sized chart table that sits right in front of the wheel! The toys to the right are toys to be enjoyed, but the chart table right at the helm is the real seller for me! 









MedSailor


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Med just don't get to comfy in that pilothouse. Your tan will fade.:laugher


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Looks cool. I hope you get it by the Fourth of July. I think it's a rare treat to be on a boat in the San Juan's on the fourth. I'm looking forward to it.


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## Marcaiche (Aug 30, 2014)

Have to say the Cheoy Lee 27 was my favorite boat...perfect mix of traditional and modern, easy to handle and could go anywhere. That being said I am a confirmed minimalist--looked for rough Electra or Kittiwake in my region for a long time (also a confirmed Alberg fan). Finally found one for next to nothing, welded up a trailer and brought her home to the barn for a re-fit. Sure it's tight below, but I'm modding her for single-handing both above and below decks...the little Electra sails well and for her size will handle a lot...we'll see when she's finished. That being said I felt a small bit of remorse when I happened along one of her 26' bigger sisters shortly after bringing her home. 
Really it's just a matter of finding a happy medium between what you like and what you need. Big doesn't necessarily mean capable...look what John Guzzwell did in little "Trekka..."


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Waltthesalt said:


> I wanted standing headroom, my wife wanted an enclosed head. So our boat is 29ft. Had a 42ft ketch, cost waaaay too much for everything.


I've got a 42 footer now. I often think fondly back on the 32 footer I had before it. Just the increased marina rates really adds up after a while. I though it was neat having two heads at first. But, it really means twice the head maintenance, which is really the worst job on the boat.

And, every time I have moved up in size. (25 - 32 - 42) it has becomes correspondingly more work. I think I could still have sailed my old 25D Cape Dory, or my Cal 25, by myself when I hit 75 ( 56 now). I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do that with the one I have now.

But, it does have a lot of room when you're anchored or tied up somewhere.


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## JoeLena (May 14, 2012)

Waltthesalt said:


> I wanted standing headroom,...


This was it for us as well, no fun stooping all the time, too old for that. Also an inboard. The Catalina 27 was about the smallest boat around here with both items.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

When considering the size of the boat I decided to start to renovate, a lot of factors came into play. I guess my first parameter was seaworthiness, followed by cost to fix up and cost of future maintenance. I'm also a big fan of simplicity and wanted to maintain the feel of a sailboat, not a floating collection of gadgets and canvas. The old, narrow configuration of my A35 seems like about the minimum amount of space to be somewhat comfortable even for one person. Two is possible with a bit of rearranging. 

The amount of gear that needs to be stowed below for long term cruising fills every available nook and cranny, including both sides of the v-berth and the one main cabin bunk I don't use. I keep the decks clear, not cluttered with stuff to trip over or worry about when it gets snotty. So it all goes below. The liferaft comes up when offshore.

For short term cruising it would be entirely different but I take off for months at a time and need to be prepared for anything that might happen. That supports the idea above that it all depends on how you plan to use the boat. For long term cruising, I don't know how you would fit RIB, bike, liferaft, sails, food, extra water, kayak, clothes, tools, sewing machine, many replacement parts, extra anchors, fiberglass supplies, paints, extra lines of many sorts, blocks, electronics, wetsuits, extra fuel, adequate fenders and fender boards, stove fuel, books, emergency signaling kit, sea anchor, drogue, ditch bag, chain and fittings, sewing kit, sailcloth, etc. in anything much smaller than 35'.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

I bought my Sea Sprite 23 with the intention on selling her in a year or two. I wanted to relearn how to sail a bigger heavier boat than my old 14' dinghy. She has taught me a lot so far.. and she has not even touched the water since I bought her two years ago.

As the forever single guy.. I want something in the 28 to 30 foot range. I keep think Alberg 30, Cape Dory 30, Westsail 28, or Liberty 28.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

triton!


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## Marcaiche (Aug 30, 2014)

Art,

The Sea Sprite was on my list of three 23-footers I had in mind for a particular voyage, but I ended up with the Electra. Of course a nearly-free Ariel showed up a month later but I (barely) managed to avoid falling into the boat-collector, three-footitis trap, with some misgivings.

What the heck, everything that came off the drawing-board of Alberg suits me, the look, the sailing qualities, the seaworthiness... If you like a "traditional" boat that still performs within reason and don't mind expending elbow-grease, they're out there for reasonable cash if you search...


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Marcaiche said:


> Art,
> 
> The Sea Sprite was on my list of three 23-footers I had in mind for a particular voyage, but I ended up with the Electra. Of course a nearly-free Ariel showed up a month later but I (barely) managed to avoid falling into the boat-collector, three-footitis trap, with some misgivings.
> 
> What the heck, everything that came off the drawing-board of Alberg suits me, the look, the sailing qualities, the seaworthiness... If you like a "traditional" boat that still performs within reason and don't mind expending elbow-grease, they're out there for reasonable cash if you search...


Mine has needed a lot of elbow grease.. but to be honest, I am something of a perfectionist. Right now I am in the middle or rebuilding the keel after finding my sprite had spent time on the bottom with a badly damaged stern and keel area


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Group9 said:


> I though it was neat having two heads at first. But, it really means twice the head maintenance, which is really the worst job on the boat.


On any boat with more than one head, at least one of them should be a Lavac...

If I had an 'Admiral' who insisted on 2 heads, I'd say "Fine, as long as you agree to maintain one of them... Choose whichever one you want to use and maintain, and I'll take the other, in which I'll install a Lavac..."

Only a bucket requires less maintenance... And, that might actually depend on the _type_ of bucket...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

lavac is the best head by far...simplicity rules...lavac is it

basically its a a head with a big gasket and you use a manual bilge pump to create vaccum

it never failed in 4 years of constant use, and was 20 years old or so when we started using it...

zero maintenance in those 4 years and one of us really abused it if you know what I mean! jajaja

peace


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

H28 H-28 (HERRESHOFF) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
twentyeightfeet
he seems to do okay


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> On any boat with more than one head, at least one of them should be a Lavac...
> 
> If I had an 'Admiral' who insisted on 2 heads, I'd say "Fine, as long as you agree to maintain one of them... Choose whichever one you want to use and maintain, and I'll take the other, in which I'll install a Lavac..."
> 
> Only a bucket requires less maintenance... And, that might actually depend on the _type_ of bucket...


This may be why there is no admiral.... Just sayin'. 

MedSailor


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