# What do you think about a pilothouse sailboat



## TSOJOURNER

I thought of putting this question in another forum but I am looking for a boat to buy and this question relates to boat selection and purchase. 

I am not experienced with sailboats much and looking for a bluewater boat to buy for extended trips maybe including crossing an ocean. I looked at some ads for pilothouse boats and they seem wonderful with navigation both on top and inside the boat to navigate while in bad weather conditions. I am guessing a pilothouse boat is a bit heavier and also maybe top heavy but they seem like a top choice. I think it is a wonderful feeling of the wind and spray of the sea in your face but for hours at a time wouldn't you prefer a pilothouse boat? Since pilothouse boats are not as common there must be a reason they are not desired as much but can you experienced sailors tell me what you think about a pilothouse boat instead of the others?


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## Idiens

Since I have a pilot house (Coronet Elvstrom 38) I am biased. I sail in a T-shirt when others around me are braving the wind, rain and waves of the North Sea all wrapped up in their warmest all weather clothing and huddling under an inadequate dodger. And when it gets really hot, you need a bimini, which I have as standard by removing the pilot house sides and back.
But generally, such craft are not built to race. On a boat my size, it might carry 6 or 8 crew to race, but I only have room for four in the pilot house and the side decks are not designed to be sat on. Racing boats need lots of space to let a large crew move about fast. The pilot house does add windage, which equals drag, which equals not so fast up wind.
The "mass produced" boats are designed to meet both racing and charter cruising requirements. I guess they make up the majority of the buyers who buy brand new, as the racers want the latest and fastest and the charter companies like to offer new boats for hire. There were a lot more pilot house models built before 1975, but that market slump bust a lot of builders. Since then, the remaining companies have largely focused on their main chance. However, Nauticat survived, as did Fisher for a while. Others try now and again but generally have low sales numbers.
For those who want not to race, or just charter for a couple of weeks, and want to live-aboard and travel slow but far, the newest is not so important as the functionality. So they hunt for a suitable boat and/or spend a lot on converting it to purpose. Some even add pilot houses.
My 2 cents.


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## kwaltersmi

Check the following thread for some good pilothouse discussion: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24906

I'm sure TrueBlue will weigh in soon. He also sails a pilothouse.


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## sailingdog

You should be hearing from ChristyLeigh and Valiente too... both of them have pilothouse boats as well as TrueBlue.


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## jrd22

I think it all depends on where you sail. Northern, colder climates are ideal for a pilothouse, hot humid areas maybe not, although I think we get better ventilation through our opening pilothouse windows than a standard sailboat does. I've had a pilothouse for 16 years and wouldn't think of owning anything else, in fact I am looking for another one(larger). But I am in Washington State and sail year round here and in British Columbia where the water is cold and we get a lot of clouds and rain. I would recommend that you get some experience with both types of boats before buying one as there are other issues such as visibility from the cockpit forward and interior layout that you need to be aware of. Also, some pilothouse models are not designed for offshore use so you need to decide if that is something you are really going to do. I'd be happy to answer other questions.


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## SimonV

SD
I dont think TB's is a pilothouse, more like a shed.


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## Faster

Pilot houses make good sense generally in areas where the boat is to be used a lot in "off season" conditions. We don't have one but we do have a dodger and I'm not shy about hiding behind the dodger and letting Otto drive on the nasty days if the conditions permit.

There are downsides to pilothouse boats, of course, otherwise as you say everyone would have one. Sightlines from the cockpit (and/or below) can be dismal making it difficult to avoid floating debris and steer around waves. Some pilothouses' large windows are not "offshore" ready without substantial storm covers. Under 45 or so feet it's difficult to design a pilothouse boat that is pleasing to the eye .. (jrd22,s NorthSea 34 is one of the better ones) Windage is up, weight is up etc etc. 

Finally some of us just want to "feel the breeze".

But there's no denying I've been envious of a pilothouse sailing along with the crew below on those wet, cold fall/winter/early spring days.


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## TSteele65

From a purely utilitarian standpoint, you can't beat a PH for comfortable all-weather cruising. The PH gives you extra living room and weather protection. 

I just can't get past the look of some of them, though; certain models look like trawlers with masts. Just my $.02.


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## christyleigh

kwaltersmi said:


> Check the following thread for some good pilothouse discussion: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24906


I think that previous thread covers anything I would re-type


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## TrueBlue

That's exactly right TS, the shorter NC33 and NC331 does look boxy and somewhat elevated, compared to typical sailboats. Even the larger "traditionally" styled pilothouse models by Nauticat still have a trawler look.

When I first started to notice Nauticats, decades ago, to my design sensibilities the effect was distinctively Scandinavian, but unlike anything else I've ever seen. 

There was one at my marina during the late 90's that was priced way above my highest expectations. But I found the boat to be very intriguing and dreamed of someday owning one. It's clearly a design that will not appeal to everyone.

Some of the newer Nauticat pilothouse models though, have low, sleek lines - but prepare to spend a huge amount of cash for them.


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## Valiente

I think the OP's cart is before his horse. He should get more sailing experience before thinking about the virtues of pilothouses for oceanic travel, if only for the sole reason that you notice a great deal about how well the boat is doing while on deck. Pilothouses insulate one somewhat from the elements, but also from the range of sensory input necessary to evaluate the changing conditions. I can't smell the shore in fog in a pilothouse unless I open a hatch. On deck, it's glaringly obvious to my nose when I'm in close, absent of any GPS or whatever electronic aids. Blowing a horn gives me an echo, and then I can confirm my nose!


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## chucklesR

I've got the mix of both worlds on my Gemini (www.mypci.net) - pilot house protection, wind and sun when you want it - and at 150k brand spanking new it down right affordable now, not 20 years later.
Check my pic in the gallery under crew mates etc.. you can see that sitting on the side deck and sailing gives all the in your face weather and feel you (I) need. Added bonuses are there is no way you can not enjoy a 12 kt sail on a 33.5 x 14 boat that fits in a normal slip and has a queen size bed in the master, two doubles, refridge and ice - okay an RV on the water, but spanks any cruising monohull under 40ft at 2/3 the price.


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## TrueBlue

I suspect sailingdog will chime in again, since that link includes his boat, a Telstar 28 . . . IIRC.


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## chucklesR

Telstar's are nice, for the purpose, which is exactly the same as the Gem. EU might rate them as Open Ocean Category A, but not most of the users.

Anyway, Telstar's are even closely related to a pilot house. I looked at and drooled over Nauticat's for two years. Went to the dealer in my area, decided used (very used) would have to do it price-wise. Then went out searching for the ex-lived on, needs TLC type. What I found was a) the wife prefers multi-hull living, and b) I prefer sailing to teak maintenance.
Besides, best I found was a 80's 33 ft with a asking price of 130, and it needed 75k more to make it good enough for me (It was overpriced and roughly lived on). 
My slip being like gold in Annapolis I'm limited to 35 ft in length, and that's a short w/l to carry a PH - but dang ain't the Gemini a beauty


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## sailingdog

A Gemini's also got a lot more deck space and interior space than most boats 40' long.  The three cabin setup on the Gemini is pretty nice. But I prefer my Telstar.  

BTW, the EU Ocean RCD rated Gemini has a slightly different configuration than the one sold in the US. IIRC, it has a slight bridgedeck across the front end of the cockpit, which is missing on the US-market boats, that prevents the cockpit from downflooding into the salon. I've since added a bridgedeck to the cockpit of my Telstar.  Keeps the interior much drier, even with the drop boards out.


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## TSOJOURNER

I have owned two pilothouse sailboats now. Neither one is considered a motorsailor. The first one was a Wm. Garden designed custom built Gulf 40. She was a flush deck, aft cockpit cutter with a low profile pilothouse with smaller windows (similar to a Lafitte 44 or Corbin 39). Though it did not have a dedicated lower helm station, I had the autopilot remote and could sit inside out of bad weather. It was also a boat I would have confidently and comfortably sailed across oceans.

My current boat that I've had all of 3 months now is a North Sea 33, built by Ta Chiao in 1978 (see below). With a lower helm station, she is absolutely perfect for sailing/cruising up here in the San Juan Islands. And like my previous pilothouse, she's a nice sailing boat, too. I would consider sailing her to Hawaii, Alaska, and down to Mexico, but not around the world. With the larger pilothouse windows I would definitley be sailing in good weather windows if I am heading out across the Pacific Ocean.

The most common complaint against pilothouses for offshore work is the pilothouse windows, and the possibility of rouge waves caving them in. However, I would guess hundreds of pilothouses have cruised across oceans without problems. I was aboard a Cooper 416 in Tonga that was sailed there from San Francisco. They had in fact reinforced the pilothouse windows, but with proper weather planning had never needed the protection.

Of course, on the same trip I met Webb Chiles, who had sailed an open 18' boat around the world. Methinks I'd rather do that trip in a nice pilothouse sailboat...


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## TSOJOURNER

Jrd22 - What is your boat? Someone said you have a North Sea 34?


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## jrd22

Moonfish- until I saw the picture you posted I thought we had the same boat, and one of us was wrong on the length. Mine is a 1978 Northsea 34 made in BC by Beaverglas Hulls based on an English design by Colvic (I think). There are a couple of pics of it in another thread about Awlcraft paint. I'll look it up and send a link. That's a nice pilothouse you have, I'd never heard of it. I'm at Blakely Island if you ever get by there. John


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## TSOJOURNER

Jrd22 - Look forward to seeing pics of your boat. I had come across another "North Sea" a few months ago on yachtworld.com. It was a mid-60s pilothouse made of wood in, I believe, BC. Could have been the same yard. Interesting...

Yes, I had not heard of my particular North Sea model until I came across it either. I had been looking at Gulf 32s, Cooper 303s and 353s, Fishers and Nauticats. This boat had just about everything I was looking for, including an affordable price! From what I gather, Ta Chiao only built four of them, with mine being hull #4. Can't imagine why they weren't more successful with these designs. There are many things that could have affected that back in the late '70s, including the market, the importer, etc. But she is a wonderful little boat for up here!


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## TSOJOURNER

Curious - how do you handle sheets in a pilot house? Do they run through the roof or something?


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## jrd22

Moonfish- here's the link to the thread where I posted pics. Can't remember how I posted them or I would pu them here. I'll look for your boat when I get to FH. 
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34124&page=2&highlight=awlcraft


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## Idiens

Lancer28 said:


> Curious - how do you handle sheets in a pilot house? Do they run through the roof or something?


In my case they run to blocks on the toe rail beside the pilot house "doors" and then to the two winches mounted on the "door-sills". Only the leeward door need be open when sheeting. The LM's have a clever arrangement of leading the sheets through water separators on the pilot house sides then inside to the horizontally mounted winches.


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## TrueBlue

Lancer28 said:


> Curious - how do you handle sheets in a pilot house? Do they run through the roof or something?


In Nauticats, sail trimming cannot be performed from the pilothouse - which is why there are two helms. The aft helm, such as with most typical sailboats, is designated for sailing and is where we spend most of our time.

The pilothouse can be a very comfortable place to be while on a long tack in foul weather. Sail trim can be checked easily through the large roof hatch and 360 degree visibility - no big deal stepping out to make adjustments or to perform tacking maneuvers.

Besides, if you ever saw the fully appointed teak interior - I don't think you'd want wet lines piled in the pilothouse.


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## Sapperwhite

SimonV said:


> SD
> I dont think TB's is a pilothouse, more like a shed.


A very pretty shed.


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## TrueBlue

Thanks Sapperwhite (g), my pilot-shed is surprisingly roomy - actually not much smaller than the traditional NC44.

Check out the new NC385 pilothouse sailboat - designed for performance and luxurious comfort . . . very nice.


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## SanderO

A pilothouse design has trade offs. It's nice to have a protect weather proof steering station. Just dealing with wet foulies is a pain in the culo. As it is I hardly use them because they are so "restrictive". In the carib you just take the water.. it's warm and so it might even cool you off! Not so in the colder climes.

On the other hand, the aft cockpit behind the pilot house suffers from visibility issues I would think. And it would probably be smaller with less lay about surfaces.

Protection from the sun has given rise to the ever present dodger/spray hood and the bimini which is often attached. With window on the top one can still see the main for trim.

I like sleeker looks and prefer the aft cockpit designs with sleek dodgers, fold down or hard. Mine offers decent rain protection and sun protection depending on heading. The dodger is clearly not the optimal solution from the POV of protection... but visibility is not compromised.

I suppose a pilot house has a lot of windage too.

I think pilot house designs are intended for cruising in colder wetter climates and that makes the design sensible.

The aesthetic follows the function.. doesn't it?


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## TrueBlue

"The aesthetic follows the function.. doesn't it?" 

A Bauhaus disciple perhaps? Hmmm . . . Pilothaus.


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## TSOJOURNER

I've always thought that thay looked funny. Of course if you were inside one looking at me, out in the rain, soaked to the ass, you might think that looked funny too.


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## TrueBlue

You know Capn, I fully agree with you. My wife calls it the "cartoon boat".


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## TSOJOURNER

Some pilothouses do impact visibility from the cockpit helm. Mine does to an extent, though I can see through the pilothouse when seated at the wheel. I can also see through when standing, or over the pilothouse roof standing on the helm seat. Not a problem. Sometimes visibility depends on your height. I had a Newport 28 with a dodger that was exactly at my eye level when standing behind the wheel. My Gulf 40 with the low profile pilothouse had better visibility than the N28 did. I actually like the aft cockpit on Nauticats. Being up high gives you a commanding view. Though the trade off is you aren't within easy "reach" of the dock. 

And as far as the "aesthetics" are concerned, I've seen plenty of traditional sailboats with clunky looking dodger and bimini set ups. At least with a properly designed pilothouse - not one that was added after the design by the manufacturer - they look proportional and sometimes even downright sleek. See Corbin 39s, Sceptre 43s, Irwin 43s-52s, Coopers, Formosas...

Again, though, it is another case of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".


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## jrd22

Capn- your post made me laugh, I actually feel guilty (honest!)when it's pouring rain, about 42 degrees, and I go by someone in all their foulies standing in the cockpit. I'm inside, toasty warm, as I slide the window open (just a bit) and give a little wave of sympathy to them.


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## TSOJOURNER

And I'd wave back, if I could see you through the deluge. If I could get my cold, cramped hands off the wheel. I'd raise my arm only to feel the cold water run down to my armpit and down my side. Careful you don't spill your coffee, Mr Funnyboat, all toasty warm and dry.


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## TrueBlue

CapnHand said:


> And I'd wave back, if I could see you through the deluge. If I could get my cold, cramped hands off the wheel. I'd raise my arm only to feel the cold water run down to my armpit and down my side. Careful you don't spill your coffee, Mr Funnyboat, all toasty warm and dry.


More than likely preventing my Dark 'n Stormy from spillin', Capn.


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## TSOJOURNER

TB, you may have a funny looking boat, but you have fine taste in drinks. I'm fighting a cold or I'd make one right now but have one for me. Cheers!


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## TrueBlue

Cheers . . . s'cuse me while I leave for a minute to pour one for you.


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## jrd22

Capn- I've always wondered why so few wave back, I always thought it was that when they looked up and got the full blast of rain in their eyes they mistakenly thought I was making a rude gesture with my hand. Thanks, knowing that you just can't move your arms because of the cold makes me feel a lot better, I was starting to feel like an outcast from the tribe or something(stinkpotter?). Regards from, Warm and toasty (did I mention dry?) John
ps. hope your cold is better


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## Valiente

TrueBlue said:


> More than likely preventing my Dark 'n Stormy from spillin', Capn.


I'm considering putting a Forespar or Force 10 bulkhead cooker in the pilothouse to keep coffee or soup warm and am wondering if a cracked open hatch directly above will be enough to vent out the pilothouse? I don't have an Espar system and the MarineAir heat pump is strictly for the dock (110 AC and a huge amp load at start), so I thought that keeping coffee hot would have a small side effect of keeping the pilothouse a little warmer.

Also, TB, I note you have windscreen wipers. Are they "marine" like IMTRA, or simply standard auto stuff? The price difference is significant and I'm wondering if it's necessary.


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## TrueBlue

Marine grade Val - motors are OEM units still in perfect condition, but I needed to replace the arms and blades. I was fortunate to find a local marine supplier with a stash of brand new units in stainless steel. Even though they were on display in his consignment warehouse - all were in unopened factory boxes.

Got them for about $8.00 ea. I'd tell you where, but then I'd have to kill you.


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## TrueBlue




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## jrd22

Valiente- We have a hand operated wiper that works very well even here in the PNW where we get a lot of rain. Usually one swipe every once in a while does the trick, unless it's really coming down hard. Cheap and easy to install option.

Hand-Operated Windshield Wiper (Straight Blade)
Shopper Rating: Not reviewed
*Read/Write*







[/URL] ManufacturerMFG Part #WM Model#PriceIn Stock?QtyAFI31000256693 Only $56.99 USD YES DescriptionChrome-plated brass handle 
Includes stainless steel 8 inches x 12 inches adjustable wiper arm, 11 inch blade, and all parts for installation 
Economical-an inexpensive alternative to wiper motor kit 
Requires 7/16" diameter hole for installation 
Can be installed up to 7/8" thick material 
For use on flat windshields only


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## sailingdog

Val-

I could have a few friends liberate some of those motors from a certain boat in Rhode Island for a small finders fee and have them shipped to you... 



TrueBlue said:


> Marine grade Val - motors are OEM units still in perfect condition, but I needed to replace the arms and blades. I was fortunate to find a local marine supplier with a stash of brand new units in stainless steel. Even though they were on display in his consignment warehouse - all were in unopened factory boxes.
> 
> Got them for about $8.00 ea. I'd tell you where, but then I'd have to kill you.


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## Valiente

TrueBlue said:


>


Impressive! I need to install at least two.


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## Valiente

jrd22 said:


> Valiente- We have a hand operated wiper that works very well even here in the PNW where we get a lot of rain. Usually one swipe every once in a while does the trick, unless it's really coming down hard. Cheap and easy to install option.
> 
> Hand-Operated Windshield Wiper (Straight Blade)
> Shopper Rating: Not reviewed
> *Read/Write*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL] ManufacturerMFG Part #WM Model#PriceIn Stock?QtyAFI31000256693 Only $56.99 USD YES DescriptionChrome-plated brass handle
> Includes stainless steel 8 inches x 12 inches adjustable wiper arm, 11 inch blade, and all parts for installation
> Economical-an inexpensive alternative to wiper motor kit
> Requires 7/16" diameter hole for installation
> Can be installed up to 7/8" thick material
> For use on flat windshields only


Thanks for that tip. I figure I'd want a motorized one for the starboard fixed glass (in front of the wheel) and maybe two "hand wipers" for the opening center screen and the fixed port screen.


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## FullandBy

A little late to the discussion but I wanted to weigh in a little. I spent over a year looking at various sailboats and finally walked into a Cooper 416 and knew instantly that this was the one. Before that point a PH was not even a consideration in my mind. I was immediately impressed with the feeling of space inside and the amount of natural light flooding through. It was almost surreal compared to walking into the dark confines of most of the other sailboats.

I also expected that the boat would not sail that well and was equally suprised to find that she would kick up a gallop and perform quite admirably - managing to hold her own against the Hunters and Beneteaus plaguing the waters. The Cooper and as noted before, the Sceptre are fairly sleek NW designed PH's and don't compromise too much by way of having a huge house on deck. Definitely much more sailboat than stinkpot.

I have to admit though that so far I have done most of the navigating in the outside cockpit. The sightlines from the inside are not as good. Especially here in the PNW I am completely paranoid about staking her bottom on a deadhead - especially since I stripped her gel bottom off and replaced with epoxy. 

Now again having said that I remember on my first offshore passage, while wrapped and huddled in my mustang suit, freezing my ass off at 3am, in the centre cockpit of a glorious 70fter that wouldn't it be nice to be able to steer from inside the boat with at least some visibility. Afterall, late at night when you are on watch and it is unrealistic to look for logs, containers and whales you are mainly looking for navigation lights and peeking at your radar which can all be done from inside the boat if you have a PH.

I defintely plan on going offshore with my Cooper 416 and I also plan on making the necessary altercations such as adding plexiglass storm covers on all the windows and locking latches on the floor compartments inside. As far as I'm concerned it is a win-win situation. If you want to be outside you can, and if you want to be inside you can. I think on some PH's you are pretty much stuck inside all the time and this was not something that interested me at all. 

Alas, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the person who is drier and warmer.


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## wakked1

I just spent 2 days going from SF to Santa Barbara on a 47' Brewer designed pilothouse sloop. I was curious about the pilothouse before and after this trip, having sailed largely just on typical aft cockpit boats. 

Background: we did a straight shot down the coast, winds about 15-30kt gusting to 35, 2 sets of 6-10 swells coming from NNW and W, mostly clear but cool conditions with some showers thrown in. Outside bimini with minimal dodger just over companionway.

PH Pro's:

- In a serious downpour, nice dry place
- Bright
- Breaks up the interior, so if someone is napping on the settee downstairs you can still hang out in the pilot house w/o disturbing them
- Lots of room in bilges for engine, tankage and storage
- Easy handholds when moving forward on deck, and flat foredeck

PH Con's:

- Breaks up the interior, meaning more steps to clamber around on, and breaks things up socially when everyone is trying to be in the same place. Space wasted on stairs and extra bulkheads, and system redundancy.
- Watching the horizon appear and disappear through the side windows every 1.5 seconds can be a bit nauseating (I have video I could post if someone wants to see)
- Nobody actually used the interior steering station. All sailing and motoring was done from the cockpit. It just didn't seem intuitive, even when it was raining (bimini mostly took care of that).
- Tons of windage, forward and laterally
- Area down of the pilothouse (galley, staterooms and heads) a bit dark since the pilothouse blocks much of the light, and more difficult to get to

Some of these attributes I'm sure are specific to this boat, but I think its a pretty typical pilothouse design.

In the end, I feel that unless live in the far north and have to deal with < 50 degree weather all the time, there is nothing in a pilothouse design that I wouldn't rather be doing in either the cockpit or traditional cabin. If weather is a big deal maybe just get one of those 360' dodgers.

On the other hand if I could find a boat that I loved and it came with a sleek, minimal pilothouse, I wouldn't disqualify it solely for the pilothouse.


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## Valiente

Wakked, I am not going to challenge your pros and cons, as I had to balance off the same concerns. Some pros, however, in favour of the pilothouse include the following:

A place to keep the electronics dry. I can have a regular LCD screen and a laptop handling the chart plotting that I can see from the deck.
A place to confine the wet gear outside of the living areas, not to mention a place in which to change clothes/boots.
A place to keep a coffee or soup warm without disturbing the galley.
A place to retreat for socializing when you want to still be "outside" but it's too cold or damp.

Lastly, the option of an engine bay over a compartment with 360 degree access to various systems was too good to turn down. I will remove the pilothouse roof in a couple of weeks and disconnect the engine. Then a hook and winch on a Polecat truck will hoist the engine straight out for service, and I will put "the lid" back on for the winter, allowing me to prime and paint in all weathers with only a couple of ceramic heaters to keep the interior toasty.

I don't think they are a good idea for the casual sailor, but for the distance cruiser, it's like having a super cockpit that can take green water.


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## Idiens

There are not many professional ships that do not have pilot houses and most of us drive cars that can be closed up when it rains. Only some sailors, bike riders and pedestrians think it is manly to brave the elements while travelling.

Now racing, that's a different matter. F1 cars are open cockpit as is Giu's dream machine. So if you want a large crew to dash about the deck doing extreme things fast in all weathers - get a large open cockpit (and really good oilies).

Pilot houses are about comfort and maximising the liveable area on a boat.


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## TSOJOURNER

TB, if i could afford that NC(385?) you posted a pic of, the PH would not be an issue. Beautiful looking boat! I doubt I need it in the ChesBay, though.


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## karlheinz

here's another pilothouse option, a coastal cruiser with no pretensions of being a bluewater boat, I love the dual steering option. Nimble kodiak, 26'4", trailerable.

craig


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## windstrel

*Northsea 34*

Jrd22 I am interested in your photos and your experience with your North Sea 34 built by Beaverglas boats in Richmond. There is one for sale here in BC that I am interested in. Cheers!



jrd22 said:


> Mine is a 1978 Northsea 34 made in BC by Beaverglas Hulls based on an English design by Colvic (I think). John


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## TSOJOURNER

Valiente - I noted your desire to have a motorized wiper on the window in front of the helm, with hand cranked wipers on the other two. On my boat, though I only have two front PH windows, I have the same set up. Now, however, I wish I had hand cranks on EACH side, as my power wiper crapped out on me. I can step over to the "passenger" window and clear that easily with one crank, but can't do much with a dead power wiper...

FullandBy - Great boat, the Cooper 416. I know some very happy cruisers, including a couple I met in Tonga that sailed their 416 from Berkeley to the South Pacific. I'd love to have one myself...


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## Plumper

I read somewhere that the Pacific Seacraft Pilot 34 is a bigger seller in the Carib than up here in the PNW because folks want to get out of the sun and its associated health hazards. That surprised the Seacraft folks.

I love my pilothouse. I have owned and sailed many other boats (none a pilothouse) and I would never go back unless I bought it strictly for racing. I now prefer to be a boat slut and race on others boats and just cruise my warm cozy Truant. Funny that the first thing most cruisers put on their trunk cabin designs is canvas protection of some sort (dodgers & biminis). 

Gaz


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## Strangeflow

Here is a picture of my Dads North Sea 33' hull number 1 of the 4.










And a picture of Moonfish's when it was still owned by the previous owner...


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## retclt

Very nice Strangeflow.

Where exactly was the top picture taken?


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## TSOJOURNER

Strangeflow - I've spoken with your Dad a couple of times. We were going to try and meet up when they came through Friday Harbor, but we were out of town both times. I've lost his number since...

We plan on stripping the green paint and making the solid teak pilothouse bright again, just like WIND IN THE WILLOWS (that is the right name, isn't it?). Thanks for posting a pic of our North Sea, VENUS, which is hull number 4. We love her! Here's a line drawing that I revised from one your Dad sent me:


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## Strangeflow

Yeah, I saw that picture earlier in the thread, thats what prompted me to put up the picture.

And retclt, I believe that is Patos island, the most northern of the san juans on our way up the inside passage.


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## Tumblehome32

Strangeflow, that is the prettiest boat Ive seen all day. Very nice.


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## TSOJOURNER

And here is another very cool shot that Strangeflow's Dad sent me of their boat. Beautiful image. I've even had it as my desktop picture, as it makes me want to head out into the Strait and onto the Pacific Ocean. I know I'm partial, but the North Sea 33 is one damn good looking pilothouse sailboat!


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## TSOJOURNER

And my current desktop pic is the one with his Dad's boat at anchor off Patos Island. I'm looking forward to having our pilothouse varnished bright like that.


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## YSIFIS

Idiens said:


> Since I have a pilot house (Coronet Elvstrom 38) I am biased. I sail in a T-shirt when others around me are braving the wind, rain and waves of the North Sea all wrapped up in their warmest all weather clothing and huddling under an inadequate dodger. And when it gets really hot, you need a bimini, which I have as standard by removing the pilot house sides and back.
> But generally, such craft are not built to race. On a boat my size, it might carry 6 or 8 crew to race, but I only have room for four in the pilot house and the side decks are not designed to be sat on. Racing boats need lots of space to let a large crew move about fast. The pilot house does add windage, which equals drag, which equals not so fast up wind.
> The "mass produced" boats are designed to meet both racing and charter cruising requirements. I guess they make up the majority of the buyers who buy brand new, as the racers want the latest and fastest and the charter companies like to offer new boats for hire. There were a lot more pilot house models built before 1975, but that market slump bust a lot of builders. Since then, the remaining companies have largely focused on their main chance. However, Nauticat survived, as did Fisher for a while. Others try now and again but generally have low sales numbers.
> For those who want not to race, or just charter for a couple of weeks, and want to live-aboard and travel slow but far, the newest is not so important as the functionality. So they hunt for a suitable boat and/or spend a lot on converting it to purpose. Some even add pilot houses.
> My 2 cents.


I am thinking to buy a coronet elvstrom 38 and i worry about the sailing ability of the boat. Can i sail this boat or i can ONLY motor it?. I am told that it can only sail with an aft wind of force 4-5 or more and never windward. Is that so?. I live in Greece and traveling on sails is very essential. What is the boat behavior on wind?. Anybody's experience is more that welcome.


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## Idiens

The Coronet Elvstrom 38 is a sailing boat with a centre cockpit and wheelhouse. It sails as well as any 1975 design of sailing boat with fin keel and skeg rudder. It sails to windward fine. Just don't expect it to point as high as a modern bendy-toy.


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## YSIFIS

Thanks for your reply. You see my previous boats were an ecume de mer and a dufour 29. Now i was looking at a dehler 34 and a canados 37, when i came across with the 1982 coronet elvstrom 38, which gave me the impression of a strong worthy boat even though completely different from i had in mind. My wish is to sail the Greek islands living in the boat. The weather here is hot and the wind usually plenty. I love sailing and despise motoring. So any comments-advise from everybody who has a sailing or traveling experience with the boat, are more than welcome. I do not expect it to sail as fast as cruiser-racer, but can i sail it on low wind, or is it to havy or to boxy to to do that ?


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## Idiens

I am living aboard my CE38 in the Algarve. It is not normally so hot as in Greece. When not sailing, I keep a tarp over the boom and wheelhouse to keep most of the sunshine out. The boat is well insulated as it is intended for the Baltic, so that keeps the heat in or out as the case may be.
It sails in light winds as well as any other 1975 design. Try to get a demo sail on the one that you have seen.


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## YSIFIS

Thank you for your answers. My next step will be to sail the boat. You keep pointing out that the boat_ sails as well as any other 1975 design_. I would be more than happy. if it could sail half as well as some of early Scandinavian designs, i can think of, like Swans or Hans Christian!!


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## Brent Swain

I've been told that my designs , down to 31 feet , look better with the pilot house than without it. I am embarrassed about how long I sat out in the rain without a pilot house before I clued in. I wouldn't be without one. In the inverted position , the buoyancy of the pilot house is the equivalent of adding thousands of pounds to the keel, in terms of ultimate stability. On a steel boat ,the pilot house can easily be as strong as the rest of the boat


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## Idiens

According to the DSV, the yardstick of the Elvstroem Coronet 38 is 101, which is slower than any of the Dehler 34's (89 to 100).
See
http://www.kreuzer-abteilung.org/Public_PDF/5406.PDF
for comparisons


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## rbyham

What do we call the Gulf line of boats? Pilothouse? I had been interested in the Gulf 29 at one time until I realized that as soon as one steps and sits in the "pilothouse" one is too low to see out which seems to defeat the purpose of the pilothouse. True you can set up a seat and pilot from inside but anyone in a settee is well below window level a none starter for me should I ever get serious about moving to a pilothouse.


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## Putnamehere

Hey, first post here from the new guy. I'm researching the North Sea 34 along with other pilothouses for Puget Sound but the North Sea shares the top of the list so far. I see that JDR22 had one. Will he or anyone get back to me with any info, pics, details about the boat? Feel free to PM me. I'm curious how they sail, their construction, leaks, interior layout, quality, etc. One thing we like about them is the layout where people can relax in the pilothouse and easily see out instead of going down in a dark hole plus the fin keel.
Thanks.


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## Arcb

Don't know anything about them, but I found this, Boats - North Sea 34
which appears to be some kind of owners association.

I like pilot house boats, I don't understand why there aren't more of them, considering the elaborate dodgers and canvas enclosures we see on so many boats.


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## Faster

Putnamehere said:


> Hey, first post here from the new guy. I'm researching the North Sea 34 along with other pilothouses for Puget Sound but the North Sea shares the top of the list so far. I see that JDR22 had one. Will he or anyone get back to me with any info, pics, details about the boat? Feel free to PM me. I'm curious how they sail, their construction, leaks, interior layout, quality, etc. One thing we like about them is the layout where people can relax in the pilothouse and easily see out instead of going down in a dark hole plus the fin keel.
> Thanks.


Quite a few North Sea 34s hereabouts (BC). I do think they did a decent job of the aesthetics for the type in that size range. From what I understand they sail reasonably well. JRD22 liked his quite a bit and when they upsized they went to a 'conceptual' big sister in the Brewer 40.

Beaver Glass in Richmond built them, I believe, along with Sharks (for a time) and the rugged little North Sea 26 Trawler line. They certainly seem like solid boats but I do not have any first hand knowledge..


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## Putnamehere

Thanks for the NS34 link. Yes, I agree that a pilothouse or something with inside steering around here would sure extend the sailing/cruising season. There don't seem to be too many pilothouse boats with more of a fin keel. The Nautilus 36 is supposedly built from a C&C 37 hull and looks fast but I haven't been able to find any on the west coast. I've always like the looks of the Gulf 32 but think I'd need an additional boat just for daysailing. The Fishers have an appealing work boat look but again, may not be a dual purpose boat for me. I've seen a couple ads for the Truant/Saturna 33 so may have to check them out. 

Anyone have any experience with the LM or Southerly lines from England? I've seen and like them but again, not much around here.

Tanzer 10.5 is interesting, simlar to the Southerly with the lifting keel. I've only seen one and that was about 10 years ago that cruised in.

We looked at a Cooper 353 recently but the layout didn't fit with our likes, no place to relax in the pilothouse and still see out. It seemed to be pretty tall and the main cabin/saloon was kind of dark. There are a few of them for sale i the NW now, though, and I've heard they sail well.

Any thoughts?


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## Arcb

A couple years back we cruised with a Tanzer 10.5 for a few days, not by design, but we just happened to be on the same schedule and going the same places. I was really impresed with the boat, we were in the 1000 Islands and he took the boat into some really thin water, he, like us was tying up at the small craft docks, rather than anchoring a quarter mile out. Kind of slick for a nearly 35 foot boat. She had both a swing keel and a lifting rudder.

I didnt drive the boat, but i did drink a tall boy in the pilot house. I didnt think thevisibility was very good from the pilot house, and the wheel was offset to the starboard side, which seems like it could be unpleasant on a port tack. I got the impression the cockpit helm station was the primary helm station and the pilot house was more of a secondary helm station.

Over all i was really impressed with the boat.


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## Faster

Years ago we took the time to check out a Cooper 353 and came away disappointed too. I think that line really came into its own in the 50 foot version but few were made.

Somebody produced a pilothouse version of a Catalina 30, I remember seeing one but it could well have been the only one built.

An acquaintance has a Nautilus 40 which they sailed throughout the Caribbean before bringing it home to BC.. they have it still as far as I know.

I think the PH concept is difficult to execute well under 40 feet, and think the North Sea 34 is one of the better ones (outside the more expensive Euro offerings.)


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## Putnamehere

Nice to hear you liked the Tanzer. Shallow water capabilities could be pretty handy and allow some private anchorages in a crowded bay. There are a couple for sale in the Great Lakes and or east coast areas. For the right price a fresh water boat could be transported to Puget Sound to start the corrosion process. Maybe elevating the inside helm seat would do a lot for forward visibility.


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## Putnamehere

I think I've seen a picture of the Catalina 30 with a pilothouse but can't say for sure. For the beam of that boat, it may have helped its looks. It seems like Hunter, especially, makes smaller pilothouse boats for the British and maybe European market. Probably aren't enough sales to do that for the US. It will mostly be my wife and myself using the boat with me having to single hand it often so something smaller may work better. I think the Yankee 30 had a pilothouse model although it could have been built by the next builder with the molds. I think something more like 32 to 35 would be more comfortable. Hard to get everything in a small package and have it work well.


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## elliowb

Putnamehere said:


> Hey, first post here from the new guy. I'm researching the North Sea 34 along with other pilothouses for Puget Sound but the North Sea shares the top of the list so far. I see that JDR22 had one. Will he or anyone get back to me with any info, pics, details about the boat? Feel free to PM me. I'm curious how they sail, their construction, leaks, interior layout, quality, etc. One thing we like about them is the layout where people can relax in the pilothouse and easily see out instead of going down in a dark hole plus the fin keel.
> Thanks.


Have you considered a Pacific Seacraft 32PH? It's a Bill Crealock design and if it sails as nicely as the 34, it'd be great.

1995 Pacific Seacraft 32 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

-- Bill
Belle Voile
PSC 34


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## Putnamehere

Thanks Bill. I hadn't seen that ad. I do like the Pacific Seacrafts and the 32 pilothouse. Seems like a decent price if only some cleaning up is needed. I was walking the docks in Blaine, WA a month ago and ran across a neglected 32PH. It had moss growing on the inside of the windows along the sliding track among other places and sort of a pox on the decks along with other signs of neglect like a hull sticker from 2013. I asked the harbor master if a message could be sent to the owner asking if he wanted to sell. He said others have tried but the owner just wasn't interested. I haven't heard back from the owner, either. When I got home, I looked up the price when new and was amazed that it was around $140K, if I'm remembering correctly. I think it'd be a good size for us but the cost would be in the $70K range or more by the time I got it in the water in Puget Sound. It does look good, though.


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## Putnamehere

I talked to the broker for the Pacific Seacraft 32 pilothouse in Florida being advertised on yachtworld. Every Monday they open the bids for whatever vehicles they’re selling. Apparently, the bank accepted an offer this week so a week from Monday the boat will be surveyed. The broker said to check back late Monday or Tuesday and if it didn't work out offers will be accepted. He said one of their guys took 2 days to bring the boat back to the brokerage office. He stopped along the way to have the bottom cleaned due to growth slowing his progress He replaced filters and everything went well. The potential buyer will keep the boat in Florida but they did a call from someone in Alaska which makes sense. As with most of the vehicles they sell, the owner is upside down in the loan.


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## Putnamehere

Has anyone had any experience with or thoughts about the LM 30 and 32 line of pilothouse sailboats? There's a couple 32's for sale on the east coast; one in Michigan and the other in Rhode Island. They're double enders with a comfortable looking pilothouse and main cabin. They look well built from Denmark and with a fin keel, could sail well depending on other factors.


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## outbound

Best pilot house I ever saw was the Chris White Atlantic 47/ 49. Truly fully functional pilot house with all the comforts right at hand. Watertight door leading into a cockpit forward of the pilot house to work the boat in safety and a second wheel there. Second watertight door aft. If I ever move up from the Outbound that boat is very high on the list. I saw the boat twice. Once in Annapolis and again at the Bitter End. Very comfortable at sea, up north and in the tropics.


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## Faster

Putnamehere said:


> Has anyone had any experience with or thoughts about the LM 30 and 32 line of pilothouse sailboats? There's a couple 32's for sale on the east coast; one in Michigan and the other in Rhode Island. They're double enders with a comfortable looking pilothouse and main cabin. They look well built from Denmark and with a fin keel, could sail well depending on other factors.


https://www.practical-sailor.com/is...oat-Review-LM32-Pilothouse-Sloop_11260-1.html
(click on the 'in Context' box)

Interesting comparison to several others here... If you like the look and can live with the loss of volume aft of a double ender, this one's relatively light compared to the Gulf 32, for instance. Pretty good numbers all around, actually, as far as the outlook for decent sailability...


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## Putnamehere

Chris White does have some pretty slick designs. I think I'd have to be a Lotto winner to get one but they do look like they'd sail well. That extra length sure can bring boats into proportion.


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## Putnamehere

Hey thanks for the Practical Sailor LM link, Faster. They seem to like it overall with typical pilothouse reservations. I like the looks of a double ender but am not specifically looking to buy one. I still would like a good sailing boat but that may be hard to find in a pilothouse. I suppose after looking awhile, I may just get a typical sloop for the sailing properties and a cabin that isn't chopped up. I've owned a J-29, Santana 30 and smaller fin keel boats along with some light racing on them and other boats plus sailed on a friends C&C 38 so not sure how more of a cruising boat, especially a pilothouse will fit in. The shelter from the rain and summer sun sure is appealing, though.

I hadn't noticed an LM owner association before so will check into that.


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## Putnamehere

JDR22, do you have any info you can ad about your North Sea 34? Any pics will be appreciated. I hear they're well made, possibly plainly appointed and sail well. The size seems pretty good to me, too.


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## Putnamehere

Oops, I mean JRD22 regarding the North Sea 34.


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## Faster

Putnamehere said:


> Oops, I mean JRD22 regarding the North Sea 34.


John (jrd22) doesn't check in as often as he used to, perhaps send him a PM? He'll likely get a notification if you do. I expect he'll respond, he's a great guy.


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## Putnamehere

Thanks Faster. Good to know.


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## Putnamehere

Hey Bill (elliowb), I've been keeping tabs on the Florida Pacific Seacraft 32 pilothouse on auction you told me about. It was surveyed Monday and sold right after a good report. They look like a boat with some nice features but when I saw a pic of it hauled out, the keel looked pretty short. Around here, we seem to have deep water, mostly, so a deeper keel with better windward performance could be advantageous. Thanks for the heads up on it.


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## Strangeflow

Well, I see this thread is still alive and well!

My folks have finally decided to part ways with their beloved North Sea 33' pilothouse discussed a decade ago back on page 2...

She's in great shape, new Yanmar, beautiful varnish, canvas, etc.

On Seattle Craigslist if anyone wants to get some pilothouse experience first hand.


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