# Older Full Keel boats



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi all,
I am doing some research.Trying to make a list of as many of the Full Keel design Solid Glass boats of the past.(60''s and later)I have been reading John Vigors book on ocean going sailboats and feel this would be a good start in search for a vessel.
Thanks for any input.
Jerry
PS:Also if anyone knows..Which were full keel with the mast stepped off of the keel.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

You asked for any input, First of all, let me touch on a pet peave of mine. Very few full keel boats were built in the 1960''s. By the 1960''s most boats were fin keel boats with attached rudders. By the 1960''s the waterlines had gotten so short, and the forefoots so cut away and the rudder post so far forward that most of the boats of the 1960''s were fin keelers, at least by the classic definition of a fin keel in which a fin keel is a keel whose bottom of the keel is 50% or less of the length of the sail plan. 

I grew up sailing on these boats and still get to sail on them today. They were the worst of all worlds. They neither track like a full keel boat, nor manuever or have the speed of a fin keel boat. They tend to carry lots of crew tiring weather helm in a stiff breeze. They represent the worst of all worlds. You can''t let them dry out on their keel like you would a true full keel boat. The rudders are no more protected than a skeg hung rudder and all of the rudders that I have lost in my life (with the exception of a dinghy rudder) have been on keel hung rudders. Why people think the old CCA racing rule derived designs make good cruisers is an absolute mystery to me after four decades of sailing them. 

The only two full keel boats that I can think of, at least in the U.S, in the 1960''s full keel boats might include the Folkboat, Allied Seawind. 

While there have been a small number of full keel boats built in the decades since the 1960''s, I guess I need to ask why you see these as a starting point for a cruising boat. To me they should be a last resort. 

Similarly, the current thinking seems to be that properly designed deck stepped masts really make more sense for offshore work. There is no easy way to jetison a bent over keel-stepped mast if it fails, so you are stuck with this bent piece of aluminum tearing at your cabin top and trying to beat its way through your hull and sink you. Having been holed by the stump of a mast that went over the side that is no fun at all. Frankly, keel stepped masts are a throwback to a time when boats had wooden masts with external halyards. Also in the 1960''s few production boats had keel stepped masts but also few had proper deck step set-ups as well. 

Then there is the whole solid glass mythology as well but I think that tripe has been beat to death around here.

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi JeffH,
Thanks for the input.I am just trying to educate myself and found Vigors book on sailboats thats where I got the full keel idea.Ultimatley I am just looking for a sailboat to spend winters in the Carribean and that I can rig for single handed operation.A well constructed small boat.
I really don''t know much about boats other than what I read in books and see posted here.

You happen to have a short list of boats you think would fit the bill?

Thanks,
Jerry 
PS:I may be asking too much but it would be nice if I could tow it home for the off season and keep it behind the house.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

There is a lot to this topic. More than I have time for this morning but in a general sense, there were good boats and poorer cruising boats from all eras. Many, if not most, 1960''s era boats are going to be very ''tired'' by now. As boats age, there are a lot of things that happen. Some are reversible and some are not. Obviously,deck hardware, keel bolts, rigging and sails can be replaced, engines rebuilt or replaced, electronics upgraded, and so on. But things like bad hull to deck joints, fatigue at high stress points, delaminated encapsulated keels and those type of basic structural issues are not not so easily dealt with. 

If I were in your shoes I would be looking for a boat between 26 and 30 feet, up to about 32 feet max. that someone has lovingly maintained, and upgraded. One thing about older boats is that the cost of ''bringing one back'' far exceeds by several time the value of the boat on the resale market, so if you find one that has been carefully upgraded and maintained, the final cost will usually be less than buying a fix-er-upper. 

If I had to suggest just a couple boats from the 1960''s that for the kind of thing you are considering, I would probably suggest a Tartan 27 first and perhaps a Seawind Ketch as a distant second. Almost anything that you bought from this era will need bigger tankage and some careful preparation. 

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks JeffH,
These Taratans look nice,even the 30 footers are in my range.Thanks again for your help.


Jerry


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Tartan 30 is what I have. Bought the boat for under $10k. There''s a lot of em'' out there.


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## windship (May 4, 2002)

Jerry039,
Please be advised that jeff is a gentelman who races and is devoted to high speed, high performance and high tech yachts.
To me,he doesn''t seem to like the older more traditional yachts and rarely has anything good to say about them.
His bias towards the first mentioned yachts is clearly visible in any one of his posts having to do with this subject.

Dennis


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Dennis, 

With all due respect, I don''t think that is a fair assessment of my position at all. I think you are selling me short. Actually, I love traditional boats, as well as, modern boats. I have owned, and restored quite a few wooden boats, the oldest of which was constructed in the 1930''s. I have documented traditional watercraft and truely am a fan of what traditional boats have to offer. When I worked for the late yacht designer, Charlie Wittholz, most of the boat designs that I worked on were very traditional designs that included a number of schooners, yawls and gaff catboats. I still very much enjoy sailing traditional watercraft and get to sail on and enjoy sailing on a wide range of traditional craft, as well as, the more modern boats that I own, cruise, daysail and race. Even so, I am currently working on a design for a very traditional daysailor that I hope to build for myself in the next few years.

BUT based on that experience, owning and sailing tradtional watercraft, as well as, sailing and owning the abominations of the late CCA era (which in my view are not really traditional watercraft and lack the significant virtues of traditional watercraft) and as well as owning a wide range of more modern craft, I see the relative virtues of both modern and traditional craft. They each offer very different sailing experiences and abilities. My belief, as often expressed in my posts, is that it is important to try to keep these virtues and liabilities in perspective. It is too easy to glorify one or the other of these boat types beyond thier abilities. I try in my posts to present a balanced view point at least as I have experienced it or researched it. 

In this case, I think that you are especially unfair to my position on this tread. If you look at the two boats that I suggested, one a 1960''s era MORC design (which during that time period was a far more wholesome racing rule that produced far more well-rounded designs than the CCA rule of the era) and the other a design based on the H-28 (the quintessential full keeled small cruiser of that era) neither would reflect a devotion to "to high speed, high performance and high tech yacht". 

In fairness I will say that my normal position reflects my belief that most people who have normal jobs, and so have limited time to use thier boats, are far better served by more modern, higher performance and higher tech yachts. It is also fair to say that my opinions also reflect my belief that yacht design principles that resulted from the limitations of the materials available in the 1920''s and 1930''s are often being oversold as the only way to go cruising and frankly I do think that is hog wash. A lot has happened since these design principles made sense and to rigidly adhere to them as the only way to go make no more sense than to advocate that we all drive 1920''s or 1930''s era automobiles as daily drivers.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## windship (May 4, 2002)

Jeff,
abom-i-na-tion:
extreme disgust and hatred:loathing.

I didn''t say traditional, I said more traditional.I agree, it''s not the same.
The sixties and seventies boats are exactly what I was talking about.The CCA boats.So they don''t sail as well as a Farr thirty eight...so what! To me their beautiful and the vast majority of them sail reasonably well and their tuffer than most new boats.Thats why their still around.
I stand by what I said in my post.I''m just calling it as it appears.
very respectfully,

Dennis


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I would have said that an ''abomination'' is something that is odious or loathsome. To me, there was an evolution in the design of vessels that responded to the realities of the materials available and the nature of a vessel at sea. To me the the corruption of these principles that were evoluted over generations simply to beat a rating rule is an abomination, something loathsome or odious. I''ll stand by that. 

My criticism of CCA boats of the 1960''s and IOR boats of the 1970''s is not only in relation to the boats of today, but in relatioship to the more wholesome designs that proceeded them as well. 

Signing off to get some sleep so I will be sharp racing a 40 foot Farr (not mine)for the weekend. 

Cheers,
Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Dennis, there are a lot of other talking fish in the sea. A lot of different experiences on different boats in every condition known to man. Keep reading. Even on the internet there''s unlimited resources of info on different boats. If you want info on a Tartan, join the Tartan sailnet E-mail list. these people are tits when it comes to knowledge about the boat. Or email me about basic questions. I''m still rebuilding mine. 

If you''re interested in 60''s boats. The Pearsons and Albergs are proven cruising boats. 

I could have afforded a newer boat than a 25 year old Tartan, but I would end up upgrading the thing anyhow. It''s easier on the pocketbook to upgrade a $10k boat than a $25k boat. For a fraction of the cost, I''ll have a nice boat with new equipment than a newer boat with older equipment. Does it matter if the electrical system is 20 years or 25-30 years old? I don''t think so. It''s all going to get replaced anyhow. 

John Vigor wrote several good books.


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## bmcald (Mar 16, 2000)

Seems like the perfect place to seek some last minute input and get some discussion underway on the last point in the message that began this thread, trailerability, at least enough to easily store a boat in the backyard in the winter.

I had a Mystic 20 catboat, which turned out to be a great boat for a beginning sailor in the shallow bays of Long Island. I''ve been wanting to stretch my cruising range and increase the comfort level in rough conditions, so have decided on a Stone Horse, a 1930s Sam Crocker design that has a full keel but only 3''6" draft. There were just 150 of these built between the late 60s and mid-80s, and were designed for Buzzards Bay chop and single-handing.

The hull is fiberglass cored with Airex, and the wood mast is stepped on the keel. The sailplan has two foresails, a furling jib and self-tending staysail. Another distinctive feature is the raised deck. The one I''m planning to buy is on a customized trailer in the seller''s yard. But at 23'' LOD (not counting the bowsprit and boomkin which, unfortunately, the marina does count...) and with 2000 pounds ballast, this isn''t a boat for quick launching and retrieval. The trailer basically serves to save on winter storage costs.

I like everything about this boat, from the tight but efficient and homey cabin layout to the spacious and close-to-the-water cockpit. But I''ve also considered the O''Day 22, an eminently trailerable boat with a swing keel and an immediate, thrilling acceleration in gusts that is very different from the steady soldiering of the full keel Stone Horse. And the Pearsons and Tartans. These alternates are all widely available at less than half the cost of the Stone Horse (prices I''ve seen range from $12000 to $19000).

But the Stone Horse is what grabs me, and that''s the clincher for me. Traditional lines, tanbark sails, and lots of brightwork. As challenging, tiring and time consuming as varnish work can be, its also deeply satisfying.

The 1971 Stone Horse I''m considering was repowered and had new sails and standing rigging made about 5 years ago.

It''s not too late for me to change my mind. The beginning inquiry was for a boat that could be kept in the backyard on a trailer and cruised single handed in the Caribbean. Very different waters and conditions than the Northeast. But if you were looking for a shoal draft boat that could be easily single handed and comfortably cruised in shallow bays and along the NE coast, what would you choose?


Cheers,
Bruce


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I agree..The Stone Horse is a nice looking boat.I recently viewed a page with an all wood Herreshof(sp).I love this type of boat.Not that I have ever sailed one.Its just that "something" about wood,it has a character all its own.(IMHO)..


Jerry


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Oh..One more idea.
I am trying to keep a simple approach to choosing a good/sound/vessel/ in the 20-25K range with another 5k or so to fix her up if needed.
I see lots of retired race boats(J''s) for sale,some with trailers even.J24,J27,J29.
The only thing that bugs me is the fin keel.
Its rather deep and might get intimate with a coral reef.
Take a look at the insides of a J boat..roomy,wide,not fancy,but with a little work maybe my kind of "minimalist Carribean cruiser".But then the Tartans look really good and a little more practical than the J''s,so I will keep looking.

Appreciate all the input,
Jerry


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## windship (May 4, 2002)

Good morning Bruce,
I don''t usualy do this but since I think you asked me directly Let me say the list goes on and on .but here are a few;
Cal is a nice boat. somthing like the 27 mk.II.Or the 28.
Catalina 27 or the 30
The Pearson 26,28 or 30.
Bristol 30
Alberg 30
I own an Endeavour 32 and I like her very much.She sails pretty good shes well built and the interior is very nice. 20 to 30k.
Irwin 30 
Islander 30
AsI said the list goes on for miles.Do your research.don''t take any one one person''s opinion to seriously.When you ask people whats good you pretty much get advice on what THEY like and not a well rounded opinion.
Good luck,

Dennis


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## manateee_gene (Dec 7, 2001)

Bruce: I would suggest that you "tune" into 
www.Latitude38.com. Look under their listings for used boats. It is the best I''ve seen for getting a good idea what is out there and can be bought direct from the owner. It will cost about 3k-4k to ship it to the East Coast. Myself if I did not have the boat I had and wanted a small boat for 1 or 2 and budget was part of it and sailing the other part I''d look for a Coronado 25 or 27, in the centerboard model. with the board up your under 3'' of draft. They were very well built boats and used you can find them on either coast for under 5K.
Gene S/V Teacher''s Pet III


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## windship (May 4, 2002)

...You can also subscribe to the publication''Soundings'',search the web and since winter is coming, I strongly suggest going to boatyards in the off season to study underbodys. You may want to think about purchasing ''Mauchs Sailboat Guides''at wwwmauchs.comm.There are three volumes and they are invaluable when looking for a boat.They show a side view and floor plan at least.They usually also show the underbody and sail plan and at least one or two paragraphs describing the boat.They will also have a list of specs.
All this is wnat I did and for the money, I think I did very well.
Doing enough homework, you will end up with the boat YOU want and not somone elses.

Dennis


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## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

Hi, Dennis (windship).

Your mention of Mauch''s Sailboat Guide had me checking their web site. Thanks for posting the idea (just one more of the billion things yet to learn).

I noted from their table of contents that several boats I thought of as candidates for myself were not listed, and I also noted that the specs they list for the sample page were very limited.

You mention that the guides are invaluable and I''m just wondering if you could kindly expand upon that a bit. I would consider purchasing them on your recommendation if you care to tell more.

Anyone else''s comments on this or equivalent guides are welcome.

Thanks,
Duane


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## windship (May 4, 2002)

Good Morning Duane,
Correct, all the boats that have been built are not in these three volumes.There''s obvioisly to many boats out there to fit into three books(but give it time).
Although you have not found the boats that you are considering,these books might broaden your considerations;they will at least without a dought enhance your knowlage on the subject.You might begin considering a boat that before you hadn''t.
What are the boats you are thinking about?
Yes, when given all the info that can be had,these specs might seem limited however,when putting to use the math formulas derived for use in the marine industry,these specs are pretty much all you will need.You can find these formulas in different places and from different people;here for instance.You can also find them in the book ''The Sailing Dictionary''that can be purchased at West Marine or most book stores.
What specs do you mean?
It seems to me that the imformation that we seek should be a balance from sorces like sailnet and also from books.

Dennis


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## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

Dennis,

Thanks for the quick reply. To answer your questions, two recent considerations were the Brewer 38 and Wauquiez Hood 38, which I did not find in the list.

The sample page listed "sail area", but not the I, J, P, and E dimensions. I have found that many of the brochures I collected in just the past 2 years will list "sail area" with no regard to the accepted formula; they include the largest genoa they carry, for example. It was my understanding that you really should not apply the formula that way. Of course, you make a good point that I could try to obtain any missing numbers via another source.

BTW, I took all the formulae from Nigel Calder''s Cruising Handbook and put them into a spreadsheet so that I could list boats of interest and have the "numbers" calculated automatically. It doesn''t mean I''m going to pick a superior boat, but it was a fun exercise.

Sounds like I should consider getting the Sailboat Guides anyway, since you say there is a lot of good info in them.

Thanks again,
Duane


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## wegman (Jul 11, 2001)

Consider the Alberg 35 by Pearson, a beautiful classic that sails extremely well and because of age is often priced low. Also the Pearson Coaster, 30 feet, is solidly built and sails well.

In boat design there are always trade-offs, and as you see people develop biases. Keep an open mind and try sailing on a lot of boats.

Best,

Jerry


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

New and Used Yachts for Sale - YachtWorld.com

listings for just about anything to give you an idea what's out there. Plug in your numbers, budget, location, etc... voila. Research is your friend. For full keel, the Alberg 35 is a nice choice. Pearson Tritons from the same era (28') can be found in conditions from s to shinola. Contrary to what Jeff says, there are good boats from every era out there. The older you go, the more careful you're going to have to be. On my old dock, there was an Islander 36 (IOR influenced...IOR MkII?), an Alberg 35 (CCA), and S&S 34 (Early IOR). These 3 designs have extensive racing and cruising histories. All three on the dock are very well maintained. Though a bit larger than you're probably looking for, they prove the greater point that not all boats from the 60's and 70's are terrible by any means. Not as fast as more recent boats, but one of any of the above would make a great boat. I'm not buying the deck stepped mast deal either. You're telling us that everyone from O.Stephens, B.Farr to C.Schumaker and M. Mills are wrong? There are plenty of good structural reasons for keel stepped masts... too many to go into in the length of a short post. Opinions are fine, but as a moderator, it would be worth taking the time to explain both pros and cons of your ideas. Sorry Jeff.


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## mgiguere (May 22, 2004)

Well here's a 1967 FinKeel S&S designed sloop built by Chris Craft in 35 knots of wind on the bay Mothers Day.

YouTube - Varsity Sailing

And, it sails very well.


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

This doesn't looks like a "fin keeler" to me. It's a 1963 CCA rule boat










Full keel, cutaway forefoot- Not a "skimming dish" with a fin. That "innovation" came later.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Like Oh Joy, another S&S designed one off from Knutson.


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## johnnyandjebus (Sep 15, 2009)

JerryO39 said:


> Hi all,
> I am doing some research.Trying to make a list of as many of the Full Keel design Solid Glass boats of the past.(60''s and later)I have been reading John Vigors book on ocean going sailboats and feel this would be a good start in search for a vessel.
> Thanks for any input.
> Jerry
> PS:Also if anyone knows..Which were full keel with the mast stepped off of the keel.


Not sure what you mean by stepped off keel; Do you mean the mast sits on the keel or sits on deck?

I am not really answering your questions, just providing examples, all deck stepped masts.
The Carl Alberg designed boats fit your discription;
See yachtworld for a more complete listing
Alberg 30
1969 Alberg 30 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
The Alberg 30 Site

Bristol 29 
1967 Bristol Herrshoff 29 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Non alberg designs

Contessa 26(My personel favorite only becuase I own one)
Small, but with a strong following and a little easier to trailer. 
1972 Contessa Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
The Contessa Corner - A site for Contessa owners, sailors and dreamers.

Up here in Canada Whitby boat works made a boat called a Whitby folkboat, same hull as the Contessa 26 but with a taller cabin, for more standing head room
Google Image Result for http://lh3.ggpht.com/_NqT2cejCLTQ/SlGQk0PWcZI/AAAAAAAAIhA/0uv8pROEtdo/PICT0001.JPG

Albin Vega
1973 Albin Vega Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
Albin Vega - The American Vega Association Home]

John


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## LookingForCruiser (Feb 7, 2007)

johnnyandjebus said:


> Not sure what you mean by stepped off keel; Do you mean the mast sits on the keel or sits on deck?


Jerry, whoever he may be, asked his question nearly 8 years ago and hasn't posted since. Hopefully he's figured out which boat he wants and bought it already. This thread... is... old.........


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## johnnyandjebus (Sep 15, 2009)

LookingForCruiser said:


> Jerry, whoever he may be, asked his question nearly 8 years ago and hasn't posted since. Hopefully he's figured out which boat he wants and bought it already. This thread... is... old.........


My mistake, to be fair, the 5 posts before me didn't seem to mind posting to an old thread.

It didn't stop you either.... just say'n

John


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I too posted before looking at how old the thread was. Especially after seeing Jeff barked at and the rep of the little ankle biter doing it...


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

I think most were responding to Jeff's small 'r' rant about old boats. I missed the original post date as well. Just assumed since it popped to the top it was relatively new. Oh well...


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## sailstein (Apr 8, 2010)

The bristol 27 is a full keel boat that might be ok for what you want though it does have some draw backs for a live aboard


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