# i need help bad



## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

this storm is going to be the end of me im going crazy and proablly over thinking this but here it goes. i hear something about a 10ft tidal surge :/. Also im in new england, Rhode island in a harbor. im more worried about what should i do with the boat? How many extra lines to put on and should i let more line out? if i let the line out im danger of hitting this other 40ft sailboat. last storm irene my neibhors power boat and this 40 ft sailboat hit during the storm and did some damage i know it was a power boat vs sailboat so diffrent swing and every thing but will i be ok? what should i do this is my first storm that i can't just put the boat on the trailer and watch the storm go by.


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## floridajaxsailor (Aug 4, 2010)

*.*

Where is your boat precisely?
give us much more detail 
Is the material next to your hull a wood dock or is it out in the harbor?
panic is wasted energy

Ishould have extra lines, yes!
And you should have anti chafing along the lines- you can go to a firehouse and ask for old smaller diameter hose, also make sure the second set of lines a slightly looser than the first set
many more experts on here that can chime in
-JD


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## floridajaxsailor (Aug 4, 2010)

*.*

ps- can you afford to have the boat hauled out?
that is obviously the best decision


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

no boats can't get hauled no money for it didn't exspect a hurricane this bad as there saying this year. so haul out is not a option. im in a harbor on a mooring. would it be safer at a dock instead?


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## saillife (Jun 25, 2006)

Triple your pendant, each additional line should be a little longer than the previous one, use chafing gear, remove anchor. Assuming you trust your mooring you are better off on the mooring than in a slip.


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## Leocat66 (Dec 11, 2010)

Slow down and think about what to expect. We are in Slidell, LA, and successfully rode out KATRINA, in a marina on Lake Pontchartrain, Camille and many others in between over many years. We have had some damage, but nothing that caused the loss of a boat. We had a 17' surge here in Katrina, and our boat survived with modest cosmetic damage. We were in a 50' slip, so we had width to work with, as we are only 35' LOA. We rigged 20 1" lines, and our only damage came from others breaking loose. There were 40 boats on our pier, three were left floating, and we were one of them. Most people tired up too tight and were pulled under by the rise of the surge.

You can survive this if you tie carefully. Use small lines to secure the boat in the slip initially. Rig very large lines with slack to accommodate the surge after the small lines break. 

If you decide to remain on the mooring you will probably be fine. Many survive in Boot Key Harbor, in the Keys, on moorings during hurricanes. It is safer than a slip, IMHO and I would choose it every time. 

All the best to you and all in harms way.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

saillife said:


> Triple your pendant, each additional line should be a little longer than the previous one, use chafing gear, remove anchor. Assuming you trust your mooring you are better off on the mooring than in a slip.


Yes, this. Like he says, put the anchor away. It'll cause damage when the storm comes and add pendants.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

wait right now im on a mooring if it's better to go to a dock i could if i really needed to. second of all what are you talking about with the anchor it sits on the deck why put it away?


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

smallboatlover said:


> wait right now im on a mooring if it's better to go to a dock i could if i really needed to. second of all what are you talking about with the anchor it sits on the deck why put it away?


Because it'll eventually bounce loose and cause damage. If you can get to a slip, that would be better. You need bow lines, stern lines, and spring lines. Cross the stern lines in an X.

If you can only dock "alongside", then you need a layer of fenders, bow line, stern line and spring lines. Double all of them.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

ill see if i can get into a slip but im not sure yet the yatch club might have rules about making sure people are out of the docks during storms. if they don't i will see if i can get to it if not it's the mooring.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I disagree that you would be better off in a slip. Personally, I wish that I were on a mooring - that I trust. 

In a slip you will have to worry about fenders popping out, lines chafing through, and other boats breaking loose. On a mooring, as long as the tackle is sound, and you double or triple your pennant, you should be OK.

Remove your anchor (as others have already pointed out), double up the pennant, and you'll be fine.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

You are better off on the mooring than in a slip.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

ok so mooring it is. and why are you all saying remove the anchor? it's not on a bow roller its mounted on deck? whats the purpose of removing the anchor?


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

smallboatlover said:


> ok so mooring it is. and why are you all saying remove the anchor? it's not on a bow roller its mounted on deck? whats the purpose of removing the anchor?


Because when your boat starts jumping up & down like a bronco, the anchor will cut thru the mooring pennants.

Strip all your canvas/sails & put them below with your anchor.


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## acarter92 (Jan 17, 2012)

smallboatlover said:


> ok so mooring it is. and why are you all saying remove the anchor? it's not on a bow roller its mounted on deck? whats the purpose of removing the anchor?


It might be o.k., but for the two minutes it takes to move it below it's probably worth it...

Austin


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

smallboatlover said:


> ok so mooring it is. and why are you all saying remove the anchor? it's not on a bow roller its mounted on deck? whats the purpose of removing the anchor?


Read why here: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/46807-storm-prep-not-photo-based-post.html#363940


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

ok sorry i was just wondering why i would remove it now i know i like to know why im doing something. and yes im stripping the boat of every thing tomorrow every thing on deck is being taken off


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Small,

I'm in New Orleans, and we are forced to ride these out pretty regularly. Given the option, I would always choose a good mooring over a dock. Almost all hull damage I have seen comes from boats either winding up resting on docks, or banging into them. 

You are already moving everything off the boat you can, and that is good advice. The next most damage is to biminies, roller furled sales, ect that people leave out. 

I might also drop your anchor. With the anchor run towards the direction the storm winds will be coming from. Just in case you have a problem with your mooring, you have a backup already down. In this case, maximum scope, and don't have it tight at all, just resting on the bottom is fine. If the boat starts to move, then the anchor takes over. But it is better for the mooring to carry the load if possible.

As advised, add a few more painters to the mooring, with each one being progressively longer. 


I appreciate its nerve wracking, but it really won't be that bad. You are looking at a Cat 1 right now, which normally means our entire harbor may have one or two boats with minor damage.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

As previously stated, a mooring is about as good a place to be in a H'cane as it gets. Best place would be a hurricane hole waaay up some creek, but even that idea can backfire on you. At a dock there are a lot more things that can go wrong that are out of your control.

You are going to need chafe protection for your mooring lines. This is essential! 
This is what it looks like: TAYLOR MADE Dock Line Chafe Guards at West Marine
Buy some. Buy more then you think you need. It is cheaper than a haul out and well worth it.

All bets are off if there is a 20' storm surge - which is not likely in Narraganssett Bay, in my opinion IF the storm track towards NJ/Delaware as currently forecast. 
If you had the boat hauled and there was only 12' of storm surge your boat might get knocked over in the boat yard by the rising water. Basically, you are safer on a mooring IF it has the scope to handle whatever storm surge you get.

Don't over think things. Sometimes ideas that sound good can have unintended consequences. Your best bet is to follow conventional wisdom at this point. This is no time to be trying untested ideas.
Deploying your anchor while secured at the mooring with a big blow coming is not a tried and true backup plan. Your anchor line may wrap around your mooring and cause it to fail or the anchor line may lead a runaway boat right into yours. 
The given advice to remove your anchor from the bow is the best practice. Remove all sails and anything that adds windage (boom, sheets etc.) and depend on your mooring to keep your boat where you left it (hopefully).


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Check out this link
BoatUS - Hurricane Center - Preparation for Boaters


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

thanks every one for the advise ill make up some chafe guard today and take every thing down.


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

Make sure your insurance is paid up and will cover any damage your boat does if it breaks loose.


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## Azzarac (Sep 30, 2011)

Check with your insurance provider about hauling out. Due to the many recent storms, a lot of companies will now pay for a haulout if a huricane warning or even a watch is issued. Its much less expensive for them to do this than pay for all the damaged vessels.


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## phil hardwick (May 24, 2012)

A mooring is safer than a slip if you are sure of the integrity of the mooring hardware and if nothing drifts down on you including old docks ect. If you opt for a slip you are better off to use available pilings and not the cleats on the floats unless you are sure of them. Look under the dock and see how they are fastened. A ring of chain with cut pvc or conduit rollers connected by a shackle for your line tied with a bowline will negate any tidal surge and acts as a shock absorber. Dont stay on the boat, no one I know that rode out Hugo would do it again .good luck!


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## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

Joe God bless I will pray for you. I read someplace about a three anchor system and the few boats that did use this system were the only ones to survive. Maybe you and your other harbor mates can work together as it helps everyone not to have a boat get free. United we stand divided we fall. I will try to find it an post but out of the water is best a Remember to lose a boat is a shame to lose Joe would be worse! If the plan is not working do the safe thing. Regards,Lou


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## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

Azzarac has a plan I like. It seems the others who have boats of value in a club might want to help clear the harbor if they can. It will help them also. Hindsight is 20-20 Regards, Lou


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Take a deep breath. If you prepare accordingly the odds are that you and your boat will be just fine. Also, the storm does not appear to be predicted to be as bad as you're worried about. *Use the information from the national hurricane center to your advantage.*

They have predicted areas of winds and storm surge, rainfall etc.
Link to National Hurricane Center: Hurricane SANDY

This is today's predicted 50Knot winds chart. 50knots is not to be sneezed at, but it's no hurricane Katrina either. Notice the chances of sustained winds at 50knots are below 50%.










There is an interactive map where you can zoom in on your location, then choose a storm surge height (say 3 or 6 feet) and it will give you predicted chances of that storm surge happening. It looks like the surge in your area is predicted to be a LOT LESS than 10ft. 
Hurricane SANDY

And finally, a reading list. Here are some selected threads that I've chosen, in order of relevance to your situation. The cliff notes version of these threads is this: Use multiple, long pendants of different lengths. Lead them fair, use chafe guards and remove your anchor. 

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/92364-what-else-could-i-have-done.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/36098-hurricane-preparation.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/87950-mooring-attaching-pendant.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/92457-help-me-decide-mooring-bitt-cleat.html

Be well, and if you're staying aboard, we want pictures, and video (with audio)! 

MedSailor


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

Stumble said:


> I might also drop your anchor. With the anchor run towards the direction the storm winds will be coming from. Just in case you have a problem with your mooring, you have a backup already down. In this case, maximum scope, and don't have it tight at all, just resting on the bottom is fine. If the boat starts to move, then the anchor takes over. But it is better for the mooring to carry the load if possible.
> .


I think this is a bad idea. The winds may and usually do shift as the eye passes which can cause your anchor rode to foul the mooring line.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Med, the problem isn't the wind speed with this one. They're all saying this is a very large, wide, slow storm, meaning that the wind and rain may continue at storm force for over 48 hours in some places. Many storms would clear through in 6-10 hours, even 24. But the continual pounding and rocking add up, and that chafe starts to cut things free. And given that many hours, there's a couple of tide cycles to work things around up and down as well. 

It has the potential to get ugly, but apparently there are enough unique qualities to this weather pattern that the forecasters really just don't know what is going to happen, so they are urging caution.

A good time to have someone actually dive on the mooring and inspect that as well, if it can be done before the storm.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

well im ready for the storm. every things off the deck. i have 3 lines on the mooring 2 that are about the same and 1 last resort line. they all have chafe gear on them. 2 of them have a hose covering them to prevent chafe.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

o yea no insurance :/


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

A couple of things: This storm is supposed to produce a large surge which will be the main problem. Any floating dock you go to may float away over the top of the pilings. Boats on moorings without enough scope (probably most of them) may break loose and hit you. The winds associated with the storm are Cat.1, not terribly strong, so a GOOD 300# mooring in mud would hold you as long as you know all the swivels and shackles are up to snuff. Being on a single mooring in a Cat2+ storm can be dangerous because the shear force from 100+ mph winds can capsize the boat as it swings around.

Unless you have 2 or 3 45-50# anchors and a really good place to throw the hook, that's probably not a great idea although getting away from other boats is *always* a good idea. Anchoring with 2 properly placed anchors stops the shearing almost 100% and greatly reduces the strain on everything. There are a lot of good spots to anchor up in Narragansett Bay, if that's where you are, but many of them may be overcome by a huge surge. If anchoring, stay where there is plenty of elevation of the land mass and not behind a sand bar that may become awash. Remember that the wind will reverse at some point in time. Hope that helps...and of course, do not stay on the boat.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

smallboatlover said:


> o yea no insurance :/


Then your concern is not your boat but the.boats that your boat may damage leaving you in a lot of.debit. Boats can be replaced, so be careful to not put yourself or your future in danger.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> o yea no insurance-smallboatlvr


That's incredible. No insurance and your what 16? So if someone gets hurt on your boat or because of your boat they will have to sue mommy and daddy. They could loose their house. If they don't have insurance. Your needed to have this boat against their wishes and were encourahed by some on here to do that dispite how they felt and your inability to have the money to pay for even the simplest of safety gear point to absolute immature decisions.

I have followed you exploits for a while. I have to call it as I see it sorry no matter how unpopular that makes what I say appear. From your first posts to yelling out a fisherman thinking you had the right away to this escapade. To this latest reckless situation where you are putting others in danger needlessly, again through immaturity and lack of finances show that you need to learn responsibility.

Those on here who have teen agers and have raised children would not like if your kids got on the Internet and were encouraged by others to go against your wishes as a parent.

Those who find this clever or romantic about someone folllowing their dream, why don't you moor beside this child and let his boat smack yours.

Dave


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Go easy Dave,

I don't disagree with you, he's in over his head. He has no resources, no finances, and no skill (yet). 

However, he's just a kid who meant no ill and was doing the best with what he had. Trust me man, it's better to help him struggle here on Sailnet than have him on the streets stirring up trouble with gangs, drugs, or whatever else. Yelling at him isn't going to help now. Hopefully the advice we provide, will help him take the necessary steps to keep his boat from being a missile hazard in the mooring field, or sinking at the dock.

You're mostly right, but let's focus on being productive so that he has the chance to learn from his mistakes.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

chef, it's Rhode Island. (First hint, which isn't an island either.) Last time I knew, RI was perhaps the last state in the entire US that didn't require any liability insurance for AUTO DRIVERS either, so attitudes up there about many things may be a bit different from those in some MidAtlantic states. 

And one can hope, his parents already are aware of liability issues. That's between them, not us. Unless you're moored up there. (G)


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Maybe so, but I cannot help but think that he uses the advice he gets from here to go at his parents. The advice gives him false hopes when he is already over his head and anyone who has raised kids knows how hard it is to do that without others interfering or counteracting their wishes.

Doing drugs, stirring trouble is not the alternative I see. He should be pairing himself up with a mentor from Sailnet who takes him out on their boat and helps teach the kid a bout sailing . I am sure his parents would whole heatedly agree with that. Maybe one of you from his area could do that. If he lived in this area I would certainly do that with him if he would let me.

Right now I see him as reckless, disrespectfull of his parents, and like many his age doing what gives him immediate gratification rather than work for things which take time and commitment. 

This trend and behavior will not end well if it continues as no "light" is suddenly going to dawn on him. Growing older does not ensure responsibility. Being taught and practicing it does. Kids who don't respect reasonable authority of their parents rarely all of a sudden start listening to their bosses when they get in the working world.

I won't go easy on him, sorry. He needs to hear the truth like some adults see it. If he wants to play with adult toys, endanger others, be treated like an adult, he needs to expect to be treated like an adult and listen to adult criticisms.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

_To this latest reckless situation where you are putting others in danger needlessly, - chef2sail_

Yeah, way too hard on the guy. He isn't building a meth lab in your neighborhood, he has a sailboat on a mooring and he is worried. Probably not a lot different from many other people there. I still see hulls of wrecked sailboats in the Hudson river left from Irene, most likely owned by insured adults. You can only make a claim if you ( or a friend) are there and see a boat hit yours.

From what I have read this guy is within the law. Maybe to to your liking, but even so, you are out of line. He is here looking for information on how to increase safety and you interrupt with THAT.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

NH also has no auto insurance requirement. "Live Free Or Die." Some folks still have this silly idea of personal freedom and responsibility and can't seem to fall in line.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

my parent's both agree with the baot the day after i got it there happy i have it they love the boat. my dad was mad that i got the boat but i brought him out on it the after it was ready to sail and he loved it. i'm not immature i know what im doing i take advice from every one that gives it. and i know what im doing just yeserday i taught a 40 year old how to strip his boat he just bought the boat and din't know how to demast the little 15ft boat so i taught him every thing about it.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I knew I would get a lot of non takers when I posted. I knew the enablers would come out in force. I base my post on not just this thread but a cumulation of the many he has been part of. He disrespects his parents and puts them at financial risk. You maythink its cute and romantic , but maybe you should substitute what he does with a car. You give him support by posting positively about his lack of respect for authority or his parents. I know how I would feel if it was my child and he was receiving advice from Internet denizens counter to what I brought him up to beleive.

Suppose he was anchoring his boat off your stern at your marina permanently. Suppose he was in the mooring next to you, would you feel the same. It's easy to sit in front of your computer screens and make pronouncements. Suppose he was your child of 16 who refused to listen to you? The meth lab hyperbole is ridiculous. 

I still wonder why no one has stepped up from his area and mentored the kid. Maybe you could help him become more responsible before he hurts someone else or himself. Go meet his parents He would have a far better chance of succeeding with good face to face contact.

Dave


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Back to the subject at hand.

You will probably be fine on the mooring. Sounds like you have done everything possible within your means at this time.

Next season it might be a good idea to think about insurance and a back up plan.

For now, take a deep breath and relax. Nothing more you can do but wait, possibly head down to the marina and help out some friends.

As for myself, I left my mooring and currently am sitting at a dock waiting to be hauled out. They now tell me it will be first thing MONDAY MORNING! If they don't haul me out there is no way I can leave my boat on their dock and make it through without damage! So I'll be headed back down river in **** conditions and starting all over again...ON MONDAY.

My dink is home and deflated, everything is off my boat, If I don't get hauled as they promised, I"M SCREWED

Yes, I'm in pre-panic mode...lol


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

_It's easy to sit in front of your computer screens and make pronouncements. - chef2sail
_

Yes,yes it is. He is probably seeing that point now.

Rob, that sucks. First thing Monday go down there and beg or yell, whatever it takes.They'll get you out. My marina was like the legion of impending doom yesterday the way they were hauling boats. At the same time, expensive yachts from NYC were pulling up tying up on the docks.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> my parent's both agree with the baot the day after i got it -smallboatlover


So whats the truth here. On June 6 you posted your dad said no, but you were going to get it anyway and just shoiw it to him after you bought it. Thats a real sign of maturity



> 6-25-2012 - Add Post To Favorites
> smallboatlover
> Huck Join Date: May 2011
> Location: Rhode island
> ...


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

they reailize after i got it how it was so worth it. And also if i was imachure i wouldn't be down at the marina 3 days before helping every one out that needed it even today i helped every one out. we just towed 2 boats, and a dock to safer places.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> *I knew I would get a lot of non takers when I posted. *I knew the enablers would come out in force. I base my post on not just this thread but a cumulation of the many he has been part of. He disrespects his parents and puts them at financial risk. You maythink its cute and romantic , but *maybe you should substitute what he does with a car. * You give him support by posting positively about his lack of respect for authority or his parents. I know how I would feel if it was my child and he was receiving advice from Internet denizens counter to what I brought him up to beleive.
> 
> Suppose he was anchoring his boat off your stern at your marina permanently. *Suppose he was in the mooring next to you,* would you feel the same. It's easy to sit in front of your computer screens and make pronouncements. Suppose he was your child of 16 who refused to listen to you? The meth lab hyperbole is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Hold on Dave, don't lump me in the "enabler" category, I agreed with most of what you said. I'm not "on his side", I'm in the middle. I'm also saying that berating him *now*, isn't going to keep his boat from crashing into someone else's.

No, I won't compare his boat to a car because that's not an apt comparison. It's not a car, it's a boat. He couldn't cause the same amount of damage with his boat, no matter how hard he tried. It's apples and watermelons.

Yes, he's in over his head.
Yes, he doesn't have the financial firepower to do this the right way.
Yes, it'd be great if someone in his area would step up and mentor him.
I'd like to know why his father isn't helping him out (if for no other reason than to try to prevent getting sued).

I'm living aboard, and I've got adult owners in this marina who haven't done a damn thing to prepare for this storm. At least he's trying to do something, and at least he's listening to the advice he's getting.

People aren't "born" responsible, they learn it. (Well, sometimes anyway...) Hopefully he learns from this storm.


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## Michael K (Feb 27, 2006)

If the mooring has had plenty of time to set (months) then it is far better than being in a slip. When Isabel hit the chesapeake it was dockside boats that were damaged the most. Many got dock rash, some floated over their pylons and then were holed as they came back down, and so forth.

About three weeks prior to Isabel I set my 200# mushroom mooring on the Chesapeake's West River and then went to New Bedford to bring a 30' cat down the coast. About 10 days after arrival Isabel became a concern, especially since the mooring wasn't really dug in. So I pulled the chain up to the lower swivel and attached two anchors on each leg in a "V" formation (Bahamian style) with pickup floats on the two outermost anchors. Extra scope was key and each of the four anchors was rigged with chain and warp. This way, if the mushroom failed to do its job, I at least I had a 200# kellet working on four anchors. The numerous lines leading off the boat to the upper mooring chain all had chafe material sewn to them at potential wear spots. Overkill, to be sure, but it wasn't the wind I was worried about - it was the surge.

When I went back to retrieve the anchors a couple of days later I really had to tug hard on the float lines. Evidently they had all dug in quite well. Food for thought.


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

Huck, helping out others isn't the "maturity" that Chef2Sail is talking about. You need to be getting your father involved in this latest "crisis" and follow whatever he tells you. Trying to avoid the "I told you so"s isn't the wise course of action here, so go to dad, tell him what advice you've been given, make SURE he's aware of ALL the concerns and let him take over. Admit that you are, in fact, 'just 16', and as much as you want to think otherwise, aren't an adult. Your mother and father are going to be the ones left holding this bag, should something bad occur (i.e. your boat swinging into that 40 footer you've mentioned). Get him involved and let him guide you from this moment forward.

Maturity is only defined and realized when a person knows his or her limitations. Accepting that fact shows growth....denying it, the opposite.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Ergh, guys. I see nothing wrong with going a bit OT and stealing business from the Family Counseling Forum or even the Darwinian Economics Forum "but".

If Huck's folks aren't aware of their liability issues for their son's actions, including motor vehicles. If his folks aren't parenting him the way other folks think they should. ("Dear Abby...") If, if, if. There's an awful lot of ground and a couple hundred very subjective morale, ethical, value judgements that can be tossed around in there, and I'd just suggest that maybe this goes a wee bit beyond the scope that any possible thread drift here can or should try to cover?

OK, a boat is a liability issue. Now what, the global village is going to try mentoring Huck ("Get your hands off my boy" ? ) AND re-educating his parents as well? OK, fine, let the first volunteer sit down with all three of them and start taking down the family history as each one tells it. The same way any licensed therapist would. Right?

Or maybe...let's just stick to the possible, and the boat problems?


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## rwlpatrick (Oct 12, 2010)

Good Luck Rob. I went to a new to me marina on Friday and on Saturday they were not going to have time to pull me, but on Sunday when I went there they were looking for me to pull my boat. I have nothing but good things to say for Knapp’s Narrows Marina they didn’t even know me and they treated me like family. I sure feel better and hopefully they will get you out too.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

There's a couple issues; no one on this thread really knows the OP or his family - but nothing here suggests they are breaking the law or endangering someone. 

and - 

when someone under duress asks for advice with lines, anchoring, mooring - then reply with an answer or helpful point. Or don't. But don't attack the guy.....

I know my harbor will still have a lot of boats in the water, I imagine Newport will have a ton of sailboats still out on moorings. This is just one more boat on a mooring, one that is looked after ,worried about, with extra lines and chafing protection.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

and besides my dads not to much of a boater so his advice usally casue more damge then good. Also i think the boat should be good i saw the boats today they were both swinging together so i think i should be good. Also my lines wern't tangled so it looks good. I also helped out a lot of boaters today even doubled up someones line for them since they can't make it to the boat.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> Huck, helping out others isn't the "maturity" that Chef2Sail is talking about. You need to be getting your father involved in this latest "crisis" and follow whatever he tells you. Trying to avoid the "I told you so"s isn't the wise course of action here, so go to dad, tell him what advice you've been given, make SURE he's aware of ALL the concerns and let him take over. Admit that you are, in fact, 'just 16', and as much as you want to think otherwise, aren't an adult. Your mother and father are going to be the ones left holding this bag, should something bad occur (i.e. your boat swinging into that 40 footer you've mentioned). Get him involved and let him guide you from this moment forward.
> 
> Maturity is only defined and realized when a person knows his or her limitations. Accepting that fact shows growth....denying it, the opposite.


Finally a voice of reason.

Bubble...didnt mean to imply you were enabling my friend wasnt you I was referring to

For those who dont like the comments I have made, I understand there are many people who arent willing to adress the elephant in the room so to speak.

For those who think it is the wrong time...most parenst know the only time some kids listen is when they are finally faced with something they cannot control. And most havent had to face a kid who just did whatever they wanted

For those of you who only want to talk about the boat problems...the problem is that the boat is there in the first place. I only hope he doesnt destroy one of YOUR boats.

The funny thing about the internet, it allows jerks like me to sit here hunkered down in my boat trying to keep her safe with lots opf time on my hands to criticise others. What a beautiful thing the internet is. If you dont like it...dont read it. Its only one persons opinion...mine/

I am still waiting to see who will help the poor lad who will travel down to help him....thats more productive than worrying about what I said. No one...huh....now why am I not suprised.
Dave


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

{Milton School in Rye 1968. After school one day Bobby Derecktor asked Chris C. and I to help him take his mom's boat "the Goose" from their house on the Point around to the yard in Mamroneck. It needed some work I believe. It was an uneventful trip of about 1 hour. We motored most or all of the way. Details have become sketchy. I remember The Goose was a 20-25 foot open daysailor. None of this story is remarkable except that we were all in fifth grade at the time. *I was 9, they were 10*. My kids played with Polly Pockets at that age. }
Kids gotta learn sometime.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I can't make any assessment of Huck's parents, based solely on postings. It sure sounds suspicious. 

However, I will echo that not having liability insurance is completely and totally irresponsible. It would not be unusual for parents to have no idea that they will assume this liability.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

If some are concerned about the parents' liability, then let's all help his parents by helping this kid and giving him real solid worthwhile advice on how ride out the storm safely and not endanger others.

finger pointing during a crisis rarely solves the crisis and wastes a hand that could be used to help.

Keep on keeping on, Huck and noli sinere arrogantium iniurias te oppromi .


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## neverknow (Feb 2, 2011)

smallboatlover said:


> my parent's both agree with the baot the day after i got it there happy i have it they love the boat. my dad was mad that i got the boat but i brought him out on it the after it was ready to sail and he loved it. i'm not immature i know what im doing i take advice from every one that gives it. and i know what im doing just yeserday i taught a 40 year old how to strip his boat he just bought the boat and din't know how to demast the little 15ft boat so i taught him every thing about it.


So what's the deal with the bad grammar and punctuation? Did you drop out of school or have they stopped teaching that?

If you want to be taken seriously you need to take the time to properly write a paragraph.


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## Familycruisers (Dec 15, 2011)

Kids half panicked about his boat (and others) and he gets " well ya shouldn't of bought it in the first place" and " you won't be taken seriously without proper grammar". Let's let the storm pass then talk to the kid about how he got his butt puckered and how to mediate that pucker in the future.

If his parents had really wanted, they could have grabbed him by the ear and marched to whomever he bought the thing and demanded the deal undone.

BTW Dave, stay safe buddy.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Dave, Rob, Huck - good luck and be safe.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Chef, why did you have to turn another thread into Sailnet vs. Chef2Sail thread?

Your timing is poor Chef, very poor. Have you heard the phrase, "It's too soon?" I've sat in hospital rooms and told people that I can't save them and that, this time, they're going to die of their emphysema. I didn't take that opportunity to chastise them for their smoking habit. The scariest and most unpredictable storm in many years is approaching. Couldn't you have had the manners to wait for the crisis to pass?

I also don't understand where you get all indignant about the insurance issue. For starters, we used to live in a country where personal responsibility mattered. Insurance (even liability insurance) is for the holder of the policy to have a benefit ABOVE AND BEYOND what is afforded by admiralty law. It doesn't benefit anyone else. If his boat drifts down on your boat, then YOUR insurance pays you. Your insurance hopes he also has insurance so they can get their money back, but the bottom line is that YOU paid for insurance to YOUR boat because you wanted to protect your finances.

If he drifts down on someone else's boat and that person isn't insured then it is the fault of the person who didn't buy insurance for their own boat if they wanted coverage above and beyond what admiralty law tells them that they are entitled to. There IS a way for the courts to figure out how much he should pay and by being a citizen and by having a boat, he is entered into that contract.

On the topic of liability I think you have no idea what you're talking about here. He is not endangering his parent's financial future. Do you even KNOW how liability is calculated in admiralty law? Did you know that it's based on the tonnage of the at-fault vessel? Have you ever heard of a SDR? Long before insurance was popular boats were crashing into each other and disputes were settled in the courts. There is a formula for how much one pays the other and I can tell you that the poster would likely be able to pay off the maximum amount required by law without financial ruin to himself or his parents. If his boat weighs 8 tonnes, and he kills people AND damages property then (at today's SDR) he would owe USD$12286.52 That's all. And that's the maximum. No loss of life or injury? Then he owes USD$4105.23.

What you don't like that that is all he has to pay you if he crashes into you? Well then, go get insurance for yourself. By law and convention he doesn't OWE anyone else the courtesy of extra insurance, that should be bought by those financially risk-avers individuals that want the protection.  Not everything is, or should be, insurable for hundreds of thousands of dollars.  If someone smokes a cigarette and burns down the restaurant nobody attacks the smoker for not having "smoking insurance". The owner of the restaurant either paid for insurance for himself, or he didn't and he either gets a payout (because he paid premiums) or he takes his lumps.

I also take issue with your assessment that what he is doing is fundamentally reckless. It's a craft that can only go 8 miles per hour, and if it is drifting off a mooring it goes much less than that. Kids (and adults) play with far more dangerous things every day. Did you ever drive fast when you were young? If you never did anything at all that was slightly dangerous or "reckless" in your youth, than you would be the first one.

Lastly, since you seem to have no problem dishing out criticisms without invitation, I'll do a little of the same.

*THERE IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.*

Your posts, when you get all high and mighty, seem to come from a perspective of I AM RIGHT and everything else is secondary. Your statement that there is an elephant in the room is the epitome of your arrogance. You assume that we all think the same thing but just aren't man enough to say it. No, we don't. If you notice, most everyone who is man enough to post posts something to contradict you. Do you listen? No. Because YOU ARE RIGHT and no evidence to the contrary will be heard.

I think that the best thing we can do for this kid is to mentor him. You even suggested the same. Since he doesn't have, or hasn't chosen, a mentor of close physical proximity, he has us at SailNet.

The best way to mentor, in my opinion is by example. I suggest you start by trying to be less closed-minded on your single-minded opinions. Nobody learns anything with a closed mind and you want him to learn. It would be a better example to follow.

Respectfully,

MedSailor


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## acarter92 (Jan 17, 2012)

Huck, 

Sounds like you've done everything you can at this point. Good luck and keep us posted....

Austin


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## neverknow (Feb 2, 2011)

Familycruisers said:


> Kids half panicked about his boat (and others) and he gets " well ya shouldn't of bought it in the first place" and " you won't be taken seriously without proper grammar". Let's let the storm pass then talk to the kid about how he got his butt puckered and how to mediate that pucker in the future.
> 
> If his parents had really wanted, they could have grabbed him by the ear and marched to whomever he bought the thing and demanded the deal undone.
> 
> BTW Dave, stay safe buddy.


He is getting advice that will not only save his boat but also help him in the future.

Life will be better for him if he learns some simple lessons.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Do you feel better now Med Sailor....got it off your chest did you.

Don't start with your pretend legalities quoting Maritime Law. You act like you are an expert with the last word. There are enough lawyers on this site, who would probably disagree with you. I work with and for 525 lawyers..thy re called the Congress of the United States and not only can they not agree on any laws interpretation, they are not held by most in the highest regard right now.

Get real man this is the Internet...don't get so serious and high and mighty...don't blow an Artery here. My opinion as I stated or did your anger prevent you reading that, is only my opinion. I have every right to it. I have the right to have a closed mind just as this young man does. Are you stepping up to mentor him or s this just a diatribe against me and my opinion. Step up to the plate with Huck, mentor him. I dare you, and would applaud you if you did. Stop pretending and writing about it just help him. Do it.....just do it.
Will you...of course not. More hot air.:laugher:laugher

See maybe I am tired of him whining and reaching out to others to solve his problems.

No way do i think i am always right or think i am the only voice or others agree with me. in fact i prefaced my post saying i doubted anyone would agree. If you don't like my posts...don't read them. Whether I have a closed mind or not, I have an opinion, which I have the right to have. Even if its nt a popular one, I still have it and am willing to say it. Your value judgement of it doesn't make it wrong if you disagree or verify it if you agree. 

As far as mentoring is concerned you know nothing about me ....rather let me turn that around...we know nothing about you except you post on the Internet. For all we know your don't even have a sailboat. I do not assume that, but I have seen that happen before on here plenty of times. I am not afraid to mentor people or be mentored. This kid refuses to listen. Read his previous posts and history. 

Again this is the Internet, try not to take things so seriously. It's really space......not reality or have you lost sight of that.

To some in here I have met them in person, and my reputation with them is important to me and has been developed by PERSONAL eye to eye interaction, it is not just an Internet thing.

I apologize if I rub you the wrong way and raise your anger and blood pressure. Feel free to not read what I write if it causes you such angst. 

Dave


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## MattSplatt (Dec 10, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> See maybe I am tired of him whining and reaching out to others to solve his problems.


I don't know any of you from Adam, but what seems to be going on here is this: Huck has a boat which he wants to ensure is safe through a storm. He admits what he doesn't know and comes on here asking for help. He gets some good advice and takes all the action in his power to prepare and protect his boat and others. He's done a lot more than a huge group of other unnamed boaters out there.

Errrm... what's the problem, exactly???

Huck doesn't seem to come here whining to have his problems solved. He frequently asks you guys for advice and listens to that advice. He trusts SN collectively because there is a vast wealth of experience here being freely shared.

What's the problem, exactly???


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Do you feel better now Med Sailor....got it off your chest did you.
> 
> .......
> 
> ...


Calm down and don't take it so seriously you say. Wow, I only wish you could actually hear yourself as others do.....










Well that answers the question I had about why you like to post like this. It appears that you get off by raising other people's blood pressure. Obviously I took your bait and by your response you're loving it.

Good for you.

I am mentoring Huck by the way. I posted what I thought would be relevant and helpful on this thread. Mentoring doesn't have to be in person. Many relationships, especially to the younger generation are just as good on the internet as ones in person.

Thank you for your apology and your suggestion. You are now the first member of Sailnet, after four years, to make it on to my ignore list.

Respectfully,
MedSailor


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

(takes a bow) for post #22.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Various points........

I wish Huck the best and am glad he asked what he should do. He received good advice.

There have been many times that he refuses to accept input and argues with experience. He can get stubborn, like a 16 year old.

I'm not going to play maritime attorney, but I find it hard to believe that sinking an environmental hazard in a navigable waterway isn't going to bring the RI Department of Environmental Management down on you for more than $4k. I know of other locales, where you pay a per day fine until you pay to have a salvage team go get your vessel. Having liability insurance, or sufficient assets to cover your liabilities, should be a requirement, IMHO. Seems Huck has neither. That's irresponsible.

There are plenty of parents that are totally incapable of guiding or controlling their child. Some parents are making "lesser of two evil" choices for their kids. We can't know Huck's parents. We only see them through a 16 year old's eyes.

Huck seems to spend more time sailing and on blogs than studying at school. Grammar and spelling are important, at least at an elementary level. Huck goes far beyond the random typo or unedited post. The higher your education, the lower the unemployment rate. 

There is no doubt there is more going on here than we know.

Winds in the Bay are already 30 knots and surge is 2ft. Best wishes to all, including Huck.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Great post MedSailor. You are right on several counts, including this egregious trolling during this time of crisis which is the elephant in_ this_ room.

Huck is here in a sincere effort and others are here ... to troll and provoke.

Chef, you may think you can say anything on the internet as you have stated several times, but right now people are quite worried about a storm and its not a time to joke and its not an appropriate situation for your amusement.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

Chef i have plenty of "mentors". every one i know helps me out on the water if i need more advice i can as several people in person for help. And i haven't come on sailnet whining im here asking for advice what i can do better to keep my boat and get it through the storm. And the plan is to get insurance next spring when i get a job and can pay for it. right now it's ok. i did every thing possible to be ready for the storm. right now im not even worried about the boat breaking loose cause im pretty sure i put enough ropes out and every thing should stay in place. im just a little worried about the other sailboat close by but it should be all set now. i saw yesterday that they were swinging together so it should be alright.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Stunning- while some ponder the decline of young people getting into sailing, the self-proclaimed serious sailors attack a kid who is actually doing it.

Proud of yourselves?


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## mikel1 (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm glad we have people like medsailor, sal paradise, bljones, and Huck . . . .know what I mean. Someone said there are two kinds of people, ones that try to build things up, and ones that try to tear things down . . . . remember the "it's not what you say but how you say it" rule . . . .


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Not sure i know what you mean Mike. You dont really know those other people, do you Mike. After all this is the Internet Mike. How do you know what Huck is telling you is true? The results of his actions leave a lot of questions. You have no idea what he, I or anyone else on here is about. 

Mike, do you have insurance on your boat.

If you really think he is the real deal step up to the plate and get up from the computer desk. ...mentor the kid.....send him some money...buy him insurance..help him out.....lend you expertise.....I don't see how your post contributed the positive you spoke about.....talk is cheap.....

.I can see you are a person of action....just do it....help him out.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Personally, I admire a kid who at 16 has such a passion for sailing that he goes against all odds and gets himself a boat--talk about ambition. [Personal attack removed]


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

Wow...

I just pulled the trigger on a sailboat and joined the forum to tap some experience as I do with all my hobbies (obsessions). I must admit that it is nice to see that this forum is has the same types of personalities that all forums do. This has been a good read thanks to those "personalities" and to the OP:

You have taken the good advice on here so you will be fine. My boat is on the hard but all my buddies boats are right in my backyard on their moorings and will be fine. 

Keep livin' the dream Pal


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

thanks


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

That's good to hear Huck. I don't wish you ill and as I have posted in the past hope you continue with your goal.

I knew when i posted the original post condemning your immaturity concerning your inability to do some of the adult responsibilities would be met with resistance as well as negativity and even some personal attacks directed towards me. Common sense and good judgement isn't inate. Remember while some of those Internet denizens are cheering you on, they don't necessarily have your best interests at heart. All some of them appear to put thir emphasis on is the "dream" of sailing. Many of them would never allow their own children to have a couple of boats in a year with no job or no way to pay for insurance. These same posters would go ballistic should they ever be hit by a 16 year old in An uninsured car or boat. Doing things in the right order is part of the maturity. With a car most that I know don't drive it uninsured then get a job to pay for it. Aside from that being illegal, it's to damn risky financially should an accident occur. Do you realize should you take someone on your boat and they injure themselves you can be sued and be put into a server financial mess for years. ( let's see. How many amateur lawyers have fun with that statement on here) . Why risk that or your parents finances. If your boat should sink in this storm or ever, someone would have to pay to have it salvaged as well for any potential environmental cleanup costs as well as fines.

Maybe it's easier to listen to those who agree with you, or cheer you on with no regard to your actual well being. Your father cares I would hope and in the beginning you even ignored him and went Behind his back according to you yourself. And some of the people on here cheered you on for doing it. I would be careful listening to an Internet denizen livng in Canada you don't even know advising you to go against the people who love you and protect you and under whose roof you live . Hmmm what does that say about those who encourage you to disobey them. Then they hide behind a smokescreen saying that I am not encouraging young sailors, to deflect their bad advice.

I hope you find one of the SN on here to mentor you and help increase your knowledge of sailing. The learning curve is accelerated by that kind of relationship. Heck if I lived near you I would try and do that as I admire anyone who wants to get into this lifestyle and dream. I think my friend Rizzo helped you gt a mainsail. He's a great guy. Try and find a SN up where you live to partner with. Try and listen to them also.

I am sorry if it seems my posts were too negative, but I am not sorry for what I believe or that I was honest enough to have said it.

Lets see which on of these people who hide behind thir screens will step forward and put some time where there mouths are. Only then will you know they we're genuine in encouraging you like Rizzo was.



> Stunning- while some ponder the decline of young people getting into sailing, the self-proclaimed serious sailors attack a kid who is actually doing it.
> 
> Proud of yourselves?bljones


This from Mr Negativeity himself who has arrogantly attacked many other SN posters with richeous indignation at will. To funny


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Not sure i know what you mean Mike. You dont really know those other people, do you Mike. After all this is the Internet Mike. How do you know what Huck is telling you is true? The results of his actions leave a lot of questions. You have no idea what he, I or anyone else on here is about.
> 
> Mike, do you have insurance on your boat.
> 
> ...


Chef - your posts in this thread have been pretty weak. You need to generally chill out and find something you can be happy about. You're way too cranky lately. You seem to want confrontation.

It's funny how the topics of "safety" and "responsibility" always become the primary fodder for slams on the "ones who are doing it wrong". I've seen it in thread after thread after thread over the past few years. And I just roll my eyes.

Small - good luck. I hope everything works out.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

RobGallagher said:


> Back to the subject at hand.
> 
> You will probably be fine on the mooring. Sounds like you have done everything possible within your means at this time.
> 
> ...


Again, back to Sandy. I got hauled this morning at 8AM. It was a crazy ride the 100 yards to the travel lift dock and I lost a blade on my prop.

I can't figure out if I hit something or it had a crack and the stress of trying to maneuver in 30+ knots in tight quarters...full forward, full reverse, full forward...etc. was the final straw.

Luckily it seems I felt the vibrations just as I was getting to the work dock. Looking back, despite the conditions I felt I should have a little more steerage and now I know why I didn't.

Either way I can't believe how lucky I am that it didn't happen at an even worse time.... Strange...

Now it the tidal surge stays below my water line...


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

Not speaking for anyone but myself, but the "negativity" comes from Huck not seeking the advice and counsel of his parents, since he's a minor, and instead, going around them to garner the same from complete strangers. Listen, I'm all for well-intentioned advice and good wishes, however, the internet is harboring situations just like these and allowing them to fester into what could turn into serious problems. I can only assume that a lot of you guys that are attacking Chef2Sail for his opinion must not have kids, or maybe they've long been grown and gone, but I can assure you rearing a teen in this day and age is no easier than it's ever been and quite possibly it's a LOT more difficult. Let's put it this way, for those of you that do have kids, "Your child has gotten himself into a situation and instead of coming to you for help, he seeks out complete strangers for aid". Does that clear up the matter at all?

I'm not making an opinion on either Huck or his parents: quite the opposite actually. I'd like to think that there is strength in FAMILY, not the recess of the world wide web. I, for one, would like to give his parents the benefit of the doubt, and not aid and abet avoiding them. Huck, even though I'm sure there are times it seems like dad is "out to get you", odds are the total opposite is the truth. And just because he says "no" to certain things doesn't make him a bad guy or wrong. It may actually mean he loves you very dearly.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

emoney said:


> Not speaking for anyone but myself, but the "negativity" comes from Huck not seeking the advice and counsel of his parents, since he's a minor, and instead, going around them to garner the same from complete strangers. Listen, I'm all for well-intentioned advice and good wishes, however, the internet is harboring situations just like these and allowing them to fester into what could turn into serious problems. I can only assume that a lot of you guys that are attacking Chef2Sail for his opinion must not have kids, or maybe they've long been grown and gone, but I can assure you rearing a teen in this day and age is no easier than it's ever been and quite possibly it's a LOT more difficult. Let's put it this way, for those of you that do have kids, "Your child has gotten himself into a situation and instead of coming to you for help, he seeks out complete strangers for aid". Does that clear up the matter at all?
> 
> I'm not making an opinion on either Huck or his parents: quite the opposite actually. I'd like to think that there is strength in FAMILY, not the recess of the world wide web. I, for one, would like to give his parents the benefit of the doubt, and not aid and abet avoiding them. Huck, even though I'm sure there are times it seems like dad is "out to get you", odds are the total opposite is the truth. And just because he says "no" to certain things doesn't make him a bad guy or wrong. It may actually mean he loves you very dearly.


OK, so he got a boat without his parents permission. I used to do a lot worse things. That's over and done. He's come here for advice on boating, that's what we are here for and it's been stated clearly that his parents are not boaters.

My old man was a powerboater. He has no advice to offer on sailing or storms or moorings. He backed a trailer into the water and went fishing for a few hours. No head, no pressure water, no rigging, no electrical system to speak of, etc. If it got cloudy he got it up on a plane and came back early.

I come here for advice, and if possible, to help out.

I think it's great this kid is learning lessons and asking questions about storm preparation. This thread is getting ruined with bickering, finger pointing, name calling and posturing to prove who is the better person.

I think it's time this thread got locked.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

emoney said:


> Not speaking for anyone but myself, but the "negativity" comes from Huck not seeking the advice and counsel of his parents, since he's a minor, and instead, going around them to garner the same from complete strangers. Listen, I'm all for well-intentioned advice and good wishes, however, the internet is harboring situations just like these and allowing them to fester into what could turn into serious problems. I can only assume that a lot of you guys that are attacking Chef2Sail for his opinion must not have kids, or maybe they've long been grown and gone, but I can assure you rearing a teen in this day and age is no easier than it's ever been and quite possibly it's a LOT more difficult. Let's put it this way, for those of you that do have kids, "Your child has gotten himself into a situation and instead of coming to you for help, he seeks out complete strangers for aid". Does that clear up the matter at all?
> 
> I'm not making an opinion on either Huck or his parents: quite the opposite actually. I'd like to think that there is strength in FAMILY, not the recess of the world wide web. I, for one, would like to give his parents the benefit of the doubt, and not aid and abet avoiding them. Huck, even though I'm sure there are times it seems like dad is "out to get you", odds are the total opposite is the truth. And just because he says "no" to certain things doesn't make him a bad guy or wrong. It may actually mean he loves you very dearly.


I don't know if you included my post with the "guys" - but I didn't attack Chef. I just think his arguments have been a bit presumptuous and weak in this thread...as has been pointed out by several. Wrong tone - wrong focus - wrong time.

I have two young boys - one of them nearing 13. If I can't answer questions about something they need help with - I tell them to find some resources from which they CAN get that info. Sailnet is a _fantastic_ resource in this regard as you can see above.

Small is smart coming here to get advice. You just have to separate the good and the bad in the advice offered - which he seems to be doing.

I don't mind Chef's opinions being in this thread at all - I just don't agree with his angle. No harm, no foul. But remember, disagreement in no way equals "personal attack".

One thing that drives me crazy though is the over-use of the term "personal attack". There are very, very few legitimate "personal attacks" around here. We should keep it real on that front and not be quite so tender.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Wait, I want the last word before this thread closes. 

I think Smack is right, everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

While Chef gave it with both barrels, he wasn't totally wrong and the hypocrisy of some of those that criticize the approach is getting knee deep. I've seen much worse than this. He is also sitting down below on his boat in the middle of the storm right now. 

I vote for a reset. Let's give each other a break and get through this thing.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Yeah... group hugs, koombayah....

Lets get the old farts AND the young'uns through this pending disaster.. I feel for all you guys looking at this thing bearing down on you. Nothing like Mother Nature pi$$ed off to remind us all how puny we really are.

Best of luck to all of you.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Just an FYI I took none of it personally. After all this is the Internet. I have learned to develop a thick hide on here. Those who I had met broken bread with and hated an anchorage know me better than an Internet screen. Enough said. Someone in his Conn area adopt him ( sailing wise).

Sandy update here. Center to pass 20 miles north of my boat in 4 hours or so. Wind gusts now 55 steady at 40. Rocking in the slip, lines straining. I just went topside to adjust them.
And had to hold on. Winds howling through the rigging. Top winds 94.. Forward motion of storm 24 mph. We are still going to Be on the southern side f the eye.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Huck, sounds you've done all you can. Time to just sit and wait it out. As for insurance, well if this thing is a catastrophic as to pull your small boat off a mooring, I'm sure there will be enough carnage that no one will ever know who hit who. I would imagine in a case like that it's all covered under each owners ticket.


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## urbanhermit (Nov 15, 2010)

Hang on every body!


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

RobGallagher said:


> OK, so he got a boat without his parents permission. I used to do a lot worse things. That's over and done. He's come here for advice on boating, that's what we are here for and it's been stated clearly that his parents are not boaters.
> 
> My old man was a powerboater. He has no advice to offer on sailing or storms or moorings. He backed a trailer into the water and went fishing for a few hours. No head, no pressure water, no rigging, no electrical system to speak of, etc. If it got cloudy he got it up on a plane and came back early.
> 
> ...


I was also thinking that this thread was becoming sour, rotten and poisonous, I don't think it should be locked. Why? Well, the ignore function is pretty easy to use, and you can undo an ignore very easily if you want to later. More than that though, I don't think it should be locked because a new sailor, with little experience is now facing a serious and scary situation and has created this thread to ask for help. Chef has tried to make this thread all about him in his search for conflict. The search for conflict reminds me of the religious nuts that used to go up to people on my university campus and scream "FORNICATOR YOU ARE GOING TO BURN IN HELL" to young couples holding hands. They were within their 1st amendment rights, but they obviously derived some kind of pleasure from the anger they received in response. I never understood it....

If we lock the thread, I think we are sending the wrong message. The message would be that if you spam the thread with taunts and high-and-mighty opinions and accusations you can have the thread destroyed. If someone is blowing an air horn at your favorite concert, the solution isn't to stop the concert.

As for agreeing or disagreeing with Huck getting a boat at all, I probably have a soft spot for him because I did something very simmilar. I upped and bought my first boat with little to no experience and against my parent's wishes (I was over 18 though). They even flew back from overseas to try and talk me out of it. In hindsight it was one of the best decisions of my life and has shaped much of who I am and they would agree with that now. So, yeah, I won't pile on against Huck for getting the boat. Rebellion is part of growing up, and taking on all the responsibility of a boat is less than many other teenagers do in the form of rebellion. Biased? Yup! 

Good luck with the storm Huck. As with many things boating related, what you have is a situation that, for better or worse, you will remember for the rest of your life. That's more than can be said for what many other people are doing on most days and that's part of why I like boating for better or for worse.

MedSailor


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Faster, Minnie, Smack and others, 

Sorry, I missed a page of replies before typing mine. Also, I hope my posts haven't been lumped into personal attacks. I don't think I've been attacked either. Like Smack said, not many real personal attacks happen here at sailnet, and it was tone and timing that I felt compelled to call out. 

I agree about a reset and I'll either stay quiet or on (the original) topic while the storm is on.

Respectfully,

MedSailor


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

I think this young man deserves a lot of credit, not only is he securing his boat, but it sounds like he has helped many others do the same.

I also don't beleive he's the only one floating around in that area without insurance. Remember, it is optional where he is...

He could be out on the streets causing havoc or tagging walls, I'm glad he's sailing and working on his boat. It''l probably inspire him to work hard and go to college with dreams of owning a huge sailboat in the future.

When I was his age, I loved to fish, my parents were correct in enabling this hobby. Not to much trouble to be found floating in a john boat fishing for largemouth's....


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> I was also thinking that this thread was becoming sour, rotten and poisonous, I don't think it should be locked. Why? Well, the ignore function is pretty easy to use, and you can undo an ignore very easily if you want to later. More than that though, I don't think it should be locked because a new sailor, with little experience is now facing a serious and scary situation and has created this thread to ask for help. Chef has tried to make this thread all about him in his search for conflict. The search for conflict reminds me of the religious nuts that used to go up to people on my university campus and scream "FORNICATOR YOU ARE GOING TO BURN IN HELL" to young couples holding hands. They were within their 1st amendment rights, but they obviously derived some kind of pleasure from the anger they received in response. I never understood it....medsailor


Oh please. This doesn't even dignify a comment. However what kind of character des a person have who puts another on ignore and then continues to rail about them, hides behind their computer screen and then signs off respectfully.
Ah only on the Internet do you run into people with such lost compasses.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

The thing is chef, you are wrong, you have hijacked a potentially useful thread with your b.s. and you have gloated over it several times. Yes, as you have pointed out its the internet.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

So Sal you are stepping forward to help Huck right...or are you continuing to perpetuate the hijack by chastising me. What is it ? Step forward talk is cheap on the internet


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

Anu update from the OP..? Would like to see how he faired last night...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

He may be out of power. Lots of areas out around the Bay, but they are coming back.


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## mikel1 (Oct 19, 2008)

I hear all is well over at Allen harbor (Quonset point) . . . will be there tommorow . .


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

I hope all is well with this young courageous man. I wish there were more 16 year olds like him.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

chef2sail said:


> So Sal you are stepping forward to help Huck right...or are you continuing to perpetuate the hijack by chastising me. What is it ? Step forward talk is cheap on the internet


Hmm, still have no idea what you are talking about, and he seems to be the self made, self taught type. However, I would gladly drive to Newport and sail with him, sure. I mean it.

I'll even give him all the advice he can stand for free , sure. When the weather is beautful.


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

What happened?


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

carl762 said:


> What happened?


We don't know yet. The original poster might be quite busy and likely doesn't have power. I hope all went well for him and his boat, and I hope to hear an update from him soon.

If, however, things didn't go well for his boat, I hope that he has the courage to still come here and tell the story. And I SINCERELY hope that if things did not go well and he does have the courage to come here and tell the story that our community will offer support in favor of judgement.

MedSailor


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I SINCERELY hope things have gone in a positive direction for Huck. Hopefully his family, most importantly weathered the storm and secondly his boat pulled through. 

The best advice he can follow will always be his mom and dads for they are the ones who truly know him and love him. Hopefully he knows and understands that as only they will be there to share his successes and support him in his time of need.

Best of luck and stay safe to Huck and all those in his area who have gone though this extreme experience.

Dave


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

Thanks every one sorry for no update didn't have power till 2 am this morning. the boat made it through no problem. i put every thing back on the boat yeserday and went sailing on another persons boat. it was a good day. every thing made it throuhg it wasn't that bad in the harbor we were protected from the north east winds.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Good to hear


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

smallboatlover said:


> Thanks every one sorry for no update didn't have power till 2 am this morning. the boat made it through no problem. i put every thing back on the boat yeserday and went sailing on another persons boat. it was a good day. every thing made it throuhg it wasn't that bad in the harbor we were protected from the north east winds.


I'd say you are now a _real _sailor, dude. One who can now _give_ advice to greenhorns facing the same type siutation.

Great job keeping her safe and sound.


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## ftldiver (Sep 9, 2002)

fwiw, there's a lot of junk in the water now... be very careful!


think shipping containers.... logs, pallets, etc.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Glad to hear that all's OK, smallboatlover. That's one thing you can tick off your 'list'...


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

ftldiver said:


> fwiw, there's a lot of junk in the water now... be very careful!
> 
> think shipping containers.... logs, pallets, etc.


I know they are saying there are a lot of shipping containers in NY harbor and surrounding waters. I imagine RI and north should be OK though as it did not seem to hit them as hard. That was what I found amazing on the Hudson river, other than some wet parking lots up in Beacon there does not seem to be much damage. Much less than after Irene. But south of us and not far the river is a MESS. Strange how there can be such a clear line of damage. We had some downed trees by us, but not bad at all. 15 - 20 miles south and it is a mess.


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

> o yea no insurance :/


What about other boats having comp.?



> and besides my dads not to much of a boater so his advice usally casue more damge then good.


Parents often say "no" to anything that they don't care for or understand themselves. I don't blame your for ignoring them and doing what you want. They may want you to "normal" things like: Go to college, get a job, buy a house, get married, pay of debt for the next 30 years, and get divorced when you're in your 30's or 40's. Then keep working after you wanted to retire since your 401k was taxed by the government. You can forget having your kids help you out since you always said no to them. This kind of life makes a man in to an uncreative, unadventurous coward. Since cowards always say "no" to others who want to do better, maybe that's why so many say "no".



> However, I will echo that not having liability insurance is completely and totally irresponsible. It would not be unusual for parents to have no idea that they will assume this liability.


They would assume liability even if he is the sole owner of the boat? How does that change for a 17 year old verses an 18 year old?

Regardless of who is liable, it's time to read up on the LIMITATION of LIABILITY ACT of 1851. If the shipowner does his part to make sure the boat is seaworthy, and has no knowledge of an accident at sea, he is not liable beyond the value of the ship and its cargo. I believe this applies to theft and rental situations too where the owner is not there. I believe there is also another law for (uninsured) commercial vessels where they have to set aside a small amount of money per tonne of displacement. It applies in situations like a total loss of the at fault vessel where the owner would only be required to pay the value of the remaining life boats, like what happened with sinking of the Titanic.

I'm glad everything worked out okay.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

*liabilty*

I am not a lawyer so explain for me. I. Curious not making any comments.

If a vessel sinks in an area who pays for environmental damage or to have it removed if it is considered a danger to navigation?

If you take some on your sailboat for a sail and they fall or injure themself do you have any percentage of the liability.? Kind of like if someone falls on you steps at home.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

smallboatlover said:


> Thanks every one sorry for no update didn't have power till 2 am this morning. the boat made it through no problem. i put every thing back on the boat yeserday and went sailing on another persons boat. it was a good day. every thing made it throuhg it wasn't that bad in the harbor we were protected from the north east winds.


Consider yourself deflowered. 

Glad things went well! Sail on!

MedSailor


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

steel said:


> What about other boats having comp.?
> 
> Regardless of who is liable, it's time to read up on the LIMITATION of LIABILITY ACT of 1851. If the shipowner does his part to make sure the boat is seaworthy, and has no knowledge of an accident at sea, he is not liable beyond the value of the ship and its cargo.


Steel,

Yes, every one of us should have the most basic knowledge of maritime law. I am not a lawyer (though my next door neighbor is a maritime lawyer), I have never claimed to be one, but I have done enough research so that I know the skeleton of how things will go if I'm involved in a legal situation in the water. I would recommend reading up to at least that level for everyone else as well. Think, 101 level.

None of us could successfully defend ourselves in a liability court case involving our cars, but we do understand the basics (I hope) and pitfalls, and how our insurance would work with other insurers if we are involved in a liability situation in our cars.

I was honestly quite surprised that many here didn't seem to know about the old rule that you can't be liable for anything beyond the value of your boat. That, I thought was common knowledge. How it's calculated is a little complex because they've changed the formula 3 times this century but the third ratification hasn't been signed onto by all the necessary countries (so that formula isn't in use). Even with that though, the formulas for tonnage and Special Drawing Rights (the SDR is a unit calculated by the IMF daily and is available in all currencies) aren't too difficult to understand.

Minniwaska mentioned being liable and fine-able for environmental damage. I'm not sure how that plays in here, but I do know that huge fines are possible for oil/diesel releases. I might be wrong, but I can't imagine the authorities trying to pin everybody who lost their boat to the wall on this one. I thought those fines were for negligence and intentional releases. If your house gets destroyed in a tornado, I don't think they're going to fine you for littering either.  Still, I would be curious if those fines could apply to a disaster or even a simple (no-negligence) sinking.

MedSailor


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

While I'm only certain of it on an inland lake, I know that your environmental liability is unrelated to the circumstance of how your boat or snow mobile got to the bottom. It clicks off per day, period. And you are still liable for the salvage on top of it.

Most environmental groups and authorities I've come across are not reasonably minded. At all.

Now for whether a minor's actions accrue to the parents is interesting. Certainly, if you child throws a ball through your neighbors window, you are liable. I would think they would in maritime environmental exposure, but guess it requires some research.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Glad to hear you made it through - and even went sailing after!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

MedSailor said:


> ...I was honestly quite surprised that many here didn't seem to know about the old rule that you can't be liable for anything beyond the value of your boat. That, I thought was common knowledge. How it's calculated is a little complex because they've changed the formula 3 times this century but the third ratification hasn't been signed onto by all the necessary countries (so that formula isn't in use). Even with that though, the formulas for tonnage and Special Drawing Rights (the SDR is a unit calculated by the IMF daily and is available in all currencies) aren't too difficult to understand...


I'm not a lawyer either, so take this with an appropriate grain of salt:

The wording of the law is one thing, but the precedent set by the case law history can be quite another. In the 2010 Philly Duck Boat accident, defendants attempted to limit their liability to $1.8 million based on the 1851 law. They settled out of court for $17 million. I suspect that if the 1851 law was so ironclad, they would not have settled for 10x that amount.

It seems that in US public waters, many court cases have ruled that the 1851 maritime law has been superseded by the Federal Boat Safety Act of 1971, and/or that the maritime liability limitation was not applicable for various reasons.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> Since cowards always say "no" to others who want to do better-Steel


Yeah right...so saying no to drugs means your a coward now huh....great valuable post for younger people.



> Since cowards always say "no" to others who want to do better-Steel


Wonder if you have kids,,,,and if you did youd let them have unlimited use of the internet.....and when you said no to them because you worried about your little girl falling for some predator that makes you a coward

You paint with too broad a brush here.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

If you cause a slick, like from a sinking vessel or an accident and report it, as well as do everything in your power to contain the spill, with sausage boom etc. You almost certainly won't be fined. I know this because I am a Tankerman PIC ( person in charge of the tansfer of dangerous liquid cargo aboard multiproduct fuel barges) The fines come when you try and cover it up and someone reports you, plus they get a big percentage of the fine as a reward, or when the spill is gigantic and caused by extreme neglagence. Machanical malfunction is usually forgiven and understood.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I would expect the Philly Duck case to be more complicated than most, simply because the "duck" is first and foremost a BUS and a registered MOTOR VEHICLE and as such, I would expect state motor vehicle laws might supecede admiralty laws, at lesat in some ways at some times. Ditto for any state-registered "motor vehicle" which just happens to be a boat. The clever lawyers can flip that one around for a while, I'd sure like to know what some of them think, but regardless of what they think and what the laws are, the facts are that in the US, the courts often find ways past the laws.

Then there's the question of whether an admiralty law would affect civil tort actions for negligence, i.e. if your boat comes loose in a storm, you were negligent, period. At least, in some eyes, because these days there's no such thing as "Your honor, I never thought it would blow that hard". Nuh-uh, even TS Sandy wasn't a total surprise. That mythological "prudent mariner" that NOAA still refers to, would know that a Cat3 or even a Cat5 is *always* a possibility, six months out of the year. And this was just, a what? A big cat1?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

ftldiver said:


> fwiw, there's a lot of junk in the water now... be very careful!
> 
> think shipping containers.... logs, pallets, etc.


In addition to large debris, don't forget that silt stirred up in the water can clog cooling intakes and manifolds on your motor.

Last year we had a whole bunch of transient powerboats that came into our marina to seek protection from Irena. One of them tried to relocate back to his marina 2 days after the storm, and his motors overheated from this problem. So you might want to have a look at the turbidity of the water before venturing out.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

i went out sailing the day after the storm and did see a lot of debre we were dogeing all of it there was even a tree in the water, 55 gallons plastic drums, a sunken boat, a part of a dock, it was fun avoiding it all lol. we didn't hit any thing. i'm happy i made it through the storm no damage done thanks every one for the advice that helped me.


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

Glad you fared OK SBL.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

thanks carl and i will shoot you a email when i have free chance soon.


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

Anytime ...


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