# Boat recommendations? (C&C 110, Tartan 37, Sabre 36-2)



## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

I am looking for my next boat. I'm coming off of an old Ericson 23 that has taught me the value of standing head-room, but has been a great little boat for the past few years. I will be sailing primarily in the south Puget Sound, so I'm interested in good light air performance. The boat can draw all she wants, as deep water abounds here (compared to Florida anyway). I've become slightly addicted to the club race, so performance is a big motivator for me, but a quality, well thought-out build is far more important to me than a few seconds on the race course. I don't need blue-water construction as I won't be sailing to HI, but I might do a little coastal cruising. I'd also like to find a boat with a decent following that would retain a good resale value. I like classic lines, but find that they are unfortunately usually inversely proportional to performance. I'd like to stay under 120K and I'd rather have an older great boat than a newer boat of lesser quality. I am not attracted to Catalinas, Hunters, Beneteaus, or Jenneaus.

The suspects I've rounded up include:
Tartan 37 (seems a bit slow)
Sabre 36 (not the 36-2, which is out of my price range)
Bristol 35.5 (too heavy?)
C&C 110 (exceeds the budget, but sure looks pretty and fast)
Express 37 (The one I checked out looked pretty tired and I suspect has some delamination issues)
J 35c (Hard to find one that isn't all beat up)
J/109 (hard to come by and pricey)
J/32, J/34 (seem too slow to warrant their spartan interiors) 

I would appreciate any feedback on the above boats and welcome any suggestions for others.

Thank you in advance for your help.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

classic lines with out the hit, performance, solid build, excellent resale value

Sabre 36...hands down, very few are beat up like the J's, you can even live on it while your next race is set.

Might be tougher to find on the left coast, but worth the look...


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

*Actually...*

There's a Sabre 36 not too far from me. Its an '89, which is a bit older, but might hold its resale value better regardless of age. Is anyone aware of common problems or things to look out for? How does she do in light air?

Thank you for your continued assistance.


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## SPC (Nov 26, 2009)

Your search parameters are not far from mine and I will follow your search closely.

I trust that I will be corrected if wrong, but I believe that the Tartan, Sabre and C&C all have cored hulls and decks. The PHRF numbers should be close for the Tartan and Sabre and both are a bit better than the C&C. All three will have balsa cored decks as well. 

I believe that the decision among the three should be a function of the individual differences associate with the particular boat: owner, aux power, condition, history, etc.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I only know of one 110 local for sale, shusboomer. pretty red thing! You can find older fiberglass versions mostly mid to east coast in your price range, vs shusboomer being a carbon hull.

I do feel like you, the older Tartan 37 will be slower, as will a sabre as compared to the others. 

As long as you can get or find a LARGE light wt drifter/reacher jib, you can sail here in puget sound, IF you have a mast head. Even with a frantional and a max 110 jib up, get a lightwt one, and you should move forward in races. 

From a race standpoint, the Bristol, sabre tartan would not be on my lets for here in puget sound. You mentioned you do not like Jeanneau's. There are a few older Sunshines that fit in the size range you are talking about, that have a good race history. As are some Beneteau First series boats that may fit your range too. ALong with being nice interior, and still fairly fast, and have a decent SA/Disp for the area. Try to be above 22-1 for upwind sailing if you can.

Marty


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Seems like you have some pretty dissimilar boats in your list. The Sabre, Tartan and Bristol are quite alike conceptually and different from the others. Perhaps a first step would be to zero in on your particular trade-off of quickness vs displacement. Each of these has obvious advantages and disadvantages and you have to decide what you want to do with the boat now and in the foreseeable future.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

StephenMaturin said:


> The suspects I've rounded up include:
> Tartan 37 (seems a bit slow)
> Sabre 36 (not the 36-2, which is out of my price range)
> Bristol 35.5 (too heavy?)
> ...


Warning, lot's of ill edited rambling below, but hopefully helpful.

T37, J32, J34, Bristol 35.5, Sabre 36... one side of the coin of your choices if you're interested in teh cruising side of club racing. These boats are going to frustrate you in local phrf stuff unless you're doing NFS cruising stuff.

Your others:

There's a J35c (you might be thinking of the J36's and J35's you've seen as being old and beat) down your way that is very well sailed with a rating of around 105 phrf. You'll have difficulty finding one, and when you do, you're looking at around $100,000. Very nice if you can find/afford one. Look up "Wild Flower"

J-109 (72-73? phrf), nice boat, like you say... $$$. They're around, just be patient.

Express 37 (72 phrf), there's one at Signature Yachts in Seattle. Looks basically nice, but will probably need some electronics, sails, etc... Could be good if you could get it for around 55-60k in it's current state. Personally, of the boats you've listed, if you can afford to campaign it, it's at the top of the list. Keep your eyes out for and Express 34 (99 phrf)as well. Only 16 or 17 built, but great boats and will be much cheaper to run than a 37. When good ones come on the market, they go quickly. These show up from time to time in the SF Bay Area brokerages.

C&C 110... nice, but probably a good deal of $$$. Honestly, I don't know much about them, but never consider the C&C 99,110,115 as competitive with similiarly rated boats (Expresses, J's).. nice boats though.

Other's to consider? There are a lot of J-35's (72 phrf) around. Some are great, some are beat. If you find a good one, it will still cost you less than an equivalent Express 34 or 37. One of the last two built was sold in Seattle a couple of years back. Had a few issues, but was generally in beautiful shape and had a great sail inventory.

J-33. (93 phrf) Again, depends on the boat. A nice one just went up to Vancouver BC from Traverse City Michigan. Probably was well worth the 5-6k to truck it out.

Sail Northwest or Sailboats at Shilshole, can't remember which, has a Wylie 34 on the market. The owner's taken care of many/most of the major issues. It sails pretty well to it's rating (128?)

.. and there's an Olson 34 in Seattle for sail. Looks like it needs some love, but rates the same as the Express 34.

... Smaller, but really nice if you can find one, is the Olson 911s. (The 911se, built by Erickson, not Olson, is a little heavier) but puts you in the 130-115 or so rating band that's a great group of boats in the central sound. The 911s goes great in light air, and has a very nice interior for weekend or longer local cruising. Not too many available, but worth the wait and even the cost to truck the right boat in. Usually around $30-38k which will give you a lot left in the kitty for racing.

As long as you're thinking about an Express 37, why not an Olson 40? Great boats, a little hard to keep going in the really light stuff, but well built and capable of doing whatever ocean adventures you can think of. There's one on the market in SF that sounds nice.

There are a couple of Farr 1020's down in CA that are great boats! I think they rate about 112? and would be on my shortlist for this area as well:

1986 Farr 1020 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Looks like a nice inventory. There's a well sailed one in Seattle. Contact the owner and ask him a load of questions.... hmmmm. for the right price, it might be at the top of my list for what you're looking for. Nice racer/cruiser, manageable expenses, the whole deal.

(no, I have nothing to do with the brokerage or the listing, just think it's a cool ride!)

NW west boats that have been in the area for awhile generally have very well known histories (both race and maintenance) that aren't too hard to trace with a few phone calls. Sometimes up here, patience can be handsomely rewarded, so don't be in a rush. Look up and down the west coast, and again, don't forget what it costs to actually race your boat. Sails for something like an Express 37 will be much more than a 32 or 34 anything.... You've got a lot of very different boats in your wish list, so it's hard to tell what you really want, but shopping is always fun! Resale value? J109, Express 37, Express 34, Olson 911s, Farr 1020. Cheers!


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

StephenMaturin said:


> There's a Sabre 36 not too far from me. Its an '89, which is a bit older, but might hold its resale value better regardless of age. Is anyone aware of common problems or things to look out for? How does she do in light air?
> 
> Thank you for your continued assistance.


If you're considering a Sabre, look at a Waulkiez (sp?) Centurion 35.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

puddings,

Is the F1020 Kiwi Express? if so, he is in my local YC/marina, and have info on how to get a hold of him. A very nice boat, Rates a 114 with a 6865 code sails etc. They use a masthead chute that is HUGE! Helps a lot for the down wind runs around here! I would put that one on a short list also. 

marty


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> puddings,
> 
> Is the F1020 Kiwi Express? if so, he is in my local YC/marina, and have info on how to get a hold of him. A very nice boat, Rates a 114 with a 6865 code sails etc. They use a masthead chute that is HUGE! Helps a lot for the down wind runs around here! I would put that one on a short list also.
> 
> marty


yup...


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

*you guys are great*

Thanks for all the feedback. Sailors are a great lot and I appreciate your help.

As noted above, yes, I am torn by the perennial question of cruiser vs. racer. On the one side, it'd be nice to have all the amenities of a fat, slow, microwaved, air-conditioned, arse-wiping cruiser... but on the other hand, I've been sailing my little E23 without any electronics for 2 years and have had a damn good time of it. But then again, I'd like to be able to sail the San Juan islands with a real head and galley (and some frigging standing head room), and sure, it'd be nice to have a depth sounder. In theory, a J35 or Express 37 would fit the bill, but the ones I've seen in the area just didn't sit right with me (if you need details, PM me). Hard to explain, but it is what it is . As for the Farr, I've heard there have been issues with quality. Conjecture, to be sure. I'd appreciate any owner comments on this.

What about the "owner cost" calculation? If you can get a J/109 for a decent price (relative, of course) and sell her in 5-10 years for a slight depreciation vs. an 80's J35ish type boat (Peterson/Express/Thompson) with a theoretically larger depreciation with higher upkeep costs, which is the right move? Somebody should invent a calculator for this and make a mint on some sailing website.

From what I've read, the J/109 is the holy grail of the racer/cruiser... at least from what the virtual world of online sailboat obsession has told me. Has anyone actually been on one of these beasts?

Continued thanks...


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

For a lower priced alternative to the J109, take a look at the Bene First 36.7.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

There is a J35C for sale in Bellingham. I looked at the boat when I was in search mode.

The boat was dirty, but it was in very good shape other than that.
I didn't pursue it because there wasn't engough cockpit or aft cabin room for me.

Also, the dodger needed some rework, as it infringed too much on the cockpit.

Nice boat, though...

David


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Pudd seems to have done a lot of homework! For racing in light air the Tartan 37 and Bristol will not pass muster, though they're nice boats. We sail through their lee so fast they look to see if our engine is going. (It's not.) Passing Sabre36's in our J/36 takes about 25 seconds longer. Have you seen a J/36? The interiors are fitted out much more "cruisily" than the J/35 or Express 37, which may appeal to you. Ash ceiling lines the hull, and the bulkheads are covered in ash with mahogany trim. There are several out in the Puget Sound/Seattle area. They're likely to have been raced, but ours seems to have held up pretty well. They sail nicely too: we beat a well-sailed J/109 to the windward mark in my last race, and we've beaten the occasional Swan/NY 42 along with every J/35 we've come across on Long Island Sound. Happy hunting!


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

You should look at this one:

The Elan 37 is a fine cruiser racer, a very good design, well built, and this one seems to have a fantastic equipment at a great price, probably because it is far away from Europe....but it is near the U.S.

It is a fine looking boat

2003 Elan 37 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - uk.yachtworld.com


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

It has been literally decades since I have raced, or paid attention to racing but I'll toss out a question. What about a Cal-29? Definitely bigger than the boat the OP has been sailing. Good design, decent cruiser, sails well, and the cost for sails and rigging would be much much less than some of the 30+ft J-boats that have been mentioned. It would also be a LOT cheaper than any of the other boats mentioned so far. Of course, it would also be a lot older.

I don't know what the rating is on the Cal-29 but I do know that back-in-the-day, a number of sailors in our club raced them successfully. They are also a pretty comfortable boat for a couple to cruise on.

Just my ignorant $.02 and change.

Dave


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

There is a Cal 29 that does well in our fleet, as do most Cals. 

I thought of another local, may not be what you want. A Bavaria Match 35, 105 fs, 123 nfs. Do not have the sail codes. 120-130K IIRC. 

As far as the J109 being the holy grail of mid 30' boats........not sure I would go that far. I would also say look at the Bene First 36.7. IIRC there is also a C&C 115 local for sale, about the same $$$ as a 110, but faster. As mentioned tho, the C&C's have a hard time sailing to ratings, the J's an easier time. If WELL sailed, the C&C's will do fine. 

The Farr's as far as quality, depends upon the manufacture. The 1020's IIRC are for the most part ok, some Farr's from the east coast of US, one company has some deck core issues. and there are some out of Australia that were cheap take offs, with no input from Farr etc. These also have some issues. JeffH probably has the most info of anyone on this forum regarding Farr design/sold boats for quality etc. The Bene firsts ar Farr designs in the size you are looking at for a number of years. 

Marty


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

Djodenda, do you know which brokerage had that J35c?

That Elan 37 looks beautiful, but the logistics are probably prohibitive. 

I'll keep my eye out for a J/36.

I checked out the Sabre 36 yesterday. Very nice boat. Looks like the PHRF on that boat is in around 117. What about the argument that you don't need to come in first in order to win the race (with the handicap)?

Thanks


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

I can tell you that I've never been in a phrf event in the PNW with a Sabre that has been competitive at all. With a 118 rating, you'll be racing again the 114-130 band (j-29's, j-30's, Olson 911's, Farr 1020, etc... ) Every one of these boats will eat you alive even boat for boat with a higher rating than yours because most have been properly prepped, not to mentioned sailed fairly well by owners who know their boats.

The whole 'resale value' thing is odd. What you want ideally is a boat with a great reputation built in small numbers like the Express 34 or Olson 911s. The J-109 is a nice boat, but will have trouble sailing to it's rating in light air unless you sail with a large genoa (but that will effect the rating). In 5-10 years, what boat will keep it's value in the size range you're looking at? Honestly, probably nothing. On the west coast, Express 37's have because they continue to sail competitively in their rating band, and have an active one design fleet down in SF. My guess is they'll be treated like the Cal 40 in your time frame; a classic that some will lavish great love on, continue to sail hard, do the work necessary to keep them up, will still bring home the pickle dishes in the right conditions, etc... and other's that will be let go and become project boats. The trick is to find 'the right one', a boat that you can actually afford to run and do the work needed to stay in the former catagory. If you're looking for a boat that will forever be free of some deck core issues, etc... you're probably out of luck with all of them. That said, re-coring is one of those tasks that most run away from thinking it the end of a boat. That's most certainly not always the case, particularly if you're willing to do some of the work yourself. As you probably know already, just doing the prep work, removing hardward, etc... and then reinstallation will save you a ton of money.

A 36 boat in the area that might hold it's value? This one:

1989 Swan Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Truly a great boat that would be wonderful to cruise on, do a Swiftsure, etc..but wouldn't be particularly competitive.

The other thought is to look for one-off boats. For example, if a particular boat, say 'Sweet Okole' down in SF ever came on the market (Farr 1 tonner, cold molded), it's in absolutely showroom condition and will most certainly go quickly if the asking price is anywhere within reason. Well maintained, great race history, etc... a boat that's an institution in and of itself. A Davidson 29 (2 built, one plug boat, one from the mold) is in this catagory as a great 'one' off.

About the Farr boats, what you're looking for in the US is anything built by Carroll Marine. They've had issues that are well documented. The trick is to find one that has had all their issues dealt with. In that same class of boats, the Frers 33 is a great design as well (blt by Carrol Marine). Again, it would be well worth the trouble to have blt2ski get you in contact with the owner of 'Kiwi Express'. If you ever want to see an Express 34, PM me. Apologies in advance if I've been doing any baby talking. It's just that every 5' LOA is a huge leap in cost, issues, liabilities, etc... A lot of folks don't include anything more than the purchase price in their thinking when going big.

Cheers


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## Parclan (Jul 25, 2007)

I was going through this exact same drill, and did it extensively for a year. After test sailing the J boats mentioned, all of them, plus the Bene 36.7, plus a handful of others, we bought a C&C 110. Local PHRF here is competitive. My boat is now for sale due only to a change in family dynamics. You can see it currently on Yachtworld (Texas boat). Make me a reasonable offer and I'll pay to truck it up there. It is a great, great boat, and I have not regretted the decision one bit. Rock solid, fast, easy to handle. I have spent 4 days on it with 4 kids, and we were just fine. Also raced off-shore (coastal) and day sailed in the bay. PM me if you want details or more thoughts. One final comment about a J105 - I almost bought one; came very close. But I just couldn't get over spending that kind of money and not being able to even stand up in it.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Parclan said:


> One final comment about a J105 - I almost bought one; came very close. But I just couldn't get over spending that kind of money and not being able to even stand up in it.


... not to mention being a dog in light air if you're sailing with the class jib.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Here's a link to the J35C

1991 J Boats J 35C Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Good Luck!


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

Thanks for all the links to boat suggestions. This is great.

Has anyone heard of a Sweden 34? Teak decks are a pain, but it looks fast. I can't really find any PHRF rating for it though. Looks well equipped. 

Thank you.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

StephenMaturin said:


> Thanks for all the links to boat suggestions. This is great.
> 
> Has anyone heard of a Sweden 34? Teak decks are a pain, but it looks fast. I can't really find any PHRF rating for it though. Looks well equipped.
> 
> Thank you.


Another very nice and seaworthy fast cruiser that'd be great up here. In a breeze, it should go to windward very well. . Racing? It'd be slow. At some point you'll have to make up your mind what you want. See if you can find a Nordic 34 as well. Only a few built, but nice, and no teak that I can recall. You can do a quick web search for each boat's phrf rating. It's a nice starting point for figuring out if it "looks" and "is" fast or not.

_(The J-35c listed seems to be very overpriced for it's general condition and inventory... )_


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

http://www.ussailing.org/phrf/Tool_ HI_LO_AVG Report Oct 21 2008.pdf

if you go there, there are two swedon 340's listed, all in the 130 range for PHRF, not sure if those are the boats you are looking at. I would put that at the slower end of the cruise race end of things.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Stephen, it seems to me that you have to define the kind of boat that you want.

On this thread fast boats are mixed with slow boats. You can win on compensated time with a slow boat, but you have to decide if you want to sail a fast boat, or you want the best boat to win on compensated time, even if it is a slow boat. 

Or perhaps you just want a nice and well built boat like the Sweeden 340, that, as blt2ski says, is rated on the 130 range (the bigger the number, the slower the boat).

For comparaison, the Elan 37 (post 15) when in Swallow Draft version, is rated at 78. That one has a racing keel, so it should be at least as fast as a First 36.7, that rates 72.

There is a huge difference in speed between a Sweden (or other medium height sailboats that rate accordingly) and an Elan or a First. They also don't sail the same way.

I am not saying that one is better than the other, but they are completely different sailboats and I am quite sure you will prefere one over the other, even if I don't know which. 

Seriously, you should try to sail a modern fast light weight cruiser-racer, like the first 36.7, the J109 or the Elan 37, and an older medium weight boat like the Sweden, or others that were cited on this thread, and I am quite sure that after that you will know what you really want.

Regards 

Paulo


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

StephenMaturin said:


> Thanks for all the links to boat suggestions. This is great.


I have to ask...

Is your user name really your name, or an homage to the late Patrick O'Brian?

Dave


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

I'd look really carefully at the teak decks on that Sweden 34 before I got real serious about it...


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

*Patrick O'Brien*

It may be best to stick with a faster cruiser than try and get a slower racer. It'd be nice to straddle the line of racer/cruiser, but it doesn't really seem feasible. Even if I were to get a super quick boat, there are always quicker boats. If I bought a Farr, Express, or J, I'd still get passed by the Mumm or Melges, right? So, why try and buy the fastest boat if, by knowing that I want to do a little cruising, I am ruling out the fastest boats? (It freaks me out to think of sailing a boat without a transom, by the way). Besides, I'm not really going to drop a bunch of cash on the latest kevlar/carbon/angel-hair/gossamer/butterfly and fairy dust sails, so I'm not even going to keep up with the guy in the next slip who belongs to the headsail of the month club even if we sail the same boat.

There it is. I've come to accept it. Sad as it is. I'd rather be comfy than fast.

That being said, the next question is which boat sails best to her PHRF (thanks for the PHRF list by the way... its more inclusive than the ones I've found online). I'll reconvene the original list, but knock off the J, Express, etc. I'll also knock off the Bristol and the Tartan.

That'll leave me with:

C&C 110 (which has a PHRF in the 70's, right?) 
Sabre 36 (PHRF 120)

Any other suggestions now that I've come to grips with my true self (my true self not being Stephen Maturin of the Patrick O'Brien series)?

Continued thanks...


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

*Finding a Fast Cruiser*

Searching for a true racer-cruiser or "performance cruiser" is quite a chore these days. Most vanished from the mainstream production sailing market by the 90's.
Another poster suggested a J35C, and I would second that. I have been aboard a J37C quite a few years ago and liked it too.
You might want to look at the 80's Ericsons, mostly the Bruce King designs but also the very quick E-36 (Ron Holland). All these boats have full teak interiors for cruising.
You might also hunt down a sistership to our Olson 34 (rates phrf 99 down in SF). What with only 39 built, there are seldom any on the market. We have a full cruising interior and good sailing cockpit and deck.

The current crop of boats seem to be an either/or proposition.

Happy hunting.
L


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

You are tossing out the J's because why? A 35/37 might work well. The bavariia I mentioned is a nice rig for the cost, it is about 3 yrs old? The Bfirst 36.7 is a good one too. The J's sail to there ratings well. The C&C's not to well. The express, also well. A Shock 35 might be another to look at. 

The mid 80's C&C's do well, there are some 37'd that seem to do well locally. 

Reality is, find something that is reasonably clean, price is what you want to spend, and enjoy the boat. Then figure out how to sail it the best you can, and hopefully win some races.

Marty


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

I'm mystified... so many great suggestions, and still looking at 2 very different boats, the Sabre and the C&C. Of the two, the 110 is a better bet for what you said you want to do, but honestly, it sounds like you still don't. You need to sail on some of these boats we're talking about. What it sometimes sounds like you want is a boat that sails well to it's rating AND can cruise for a week or a month in the Islands or up to Desolation. And you're asking for the rating of the C&C 110 after someone went to the trouble of linking you to a comprehensive list of phrf ratings for ALL the boats you've asked about. At the risk of rudeness, you HAVE to do some of the work yourself. 
The Olson 34, Express 34, Olson 911, J-35, E-37... all sail great, cruise fine, and have excellent track records. The B-36.7 is also a nice boat. We're not talking sport boats, but just for fun, in the PNW the Express 34 and Melges 24 both rate 99. Both have their conditions that they'll win if sailed well. Now which would you rather cruise? Sure, when we raft up with a Swan 44 or Outbound 46 I'm envious of the cruising amenities and really nice interiors (that will get trashed racing), but on a typical race day in the Sound, I'm very happy to sail something lighter, yet still very comfortable. Again, PM me if you want to see and E-34. It's not for sale, but will give you an idea of some basic design ideas of a racer/cruiser. There's also a Frers 33 and Tripp 33, a couple of C&C 34's, a J-36, etc... all close by. ALl that said, if you're looking for a cruiser/racer, well, you've found your Sweden 34. It's a great boat... just not as competitive.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Just a couple of comments FWIW,

The T37 is holding its value well from what I see them listed for on Yacht World, and I don't see that changing much. As it is typical with any brand, the value can be related to the condition of the boat, fortunately most T37 owners take good care of their vessels.

IF you decide to pursue one (sounds like you're leaning towards the performance vs classic lines) you would definitely want to find a fin keel version and not the C/B version. Only a few of the fin keels were built, if I recall correctly, less than 20 of 450 built...sometimes called the T38.

There is an active owners group at Home , combined with resources still available from the factory you can find most anything you would need for the boat.


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

*Thanks*

Puddinlegs, et. al.,

Thank you again for your suggestions. Mr. Puddinlegs, I hope I haven't offended you with my land-lubberly ignorance and slothful behavior, as I value your well researched and thorough posts.

You guys have been a great help. I'll be sure to let you know what I end up with.

Thanks again,
Adam


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

not at all! Like most things, the hardest part is choosing between the red and blue pill. It just sounded like you weren't there yet. You've got a good list for both sides of the coin. Let us know what you decide. Either way you're doing to have fun, and that's what it's all about... hokey pokey aside.


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

Is anyone going up to race week? I'm heading up tomorrow.

-Adam


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## joebigsky (Jul 20, 2010)

*Best racer cruiser*

I have enjoyed following this thread while actively looking for the same "ideal" as Maturin, my goal being to sail the singlehanded Transpac.

I have flown to Santa Barbara to look at the Farr 1020 "Mar Caballo" and was dissapointed in the condition of the boat. Yes it has been repowered and has a relatively new main, but the overall condition I would rate as a "5", and the life raft needs refitting, the SSB is ancient, and the SSB antenna was hanging willynilly from the backstay. The running lights were taped to the pulpit, the teak deck in the cockpit wants replacement, there is water delamination in the forward bulkhead, loose stanchions, and the interior was filthy. Ridden hard and put away wet. It went to Hawaii in 2006 and has done well in coastal races. The owner was not interested in coming down in price; maybe if you could get it for 45K it would be a reasonable deal.

On the Express 37 in Seattle, I looked at this boat last week as well. I made an offer, and flew out to have a look. The disclosures came in, and it turns out that the boat had a very hard rock hit that almost ripped the keel off, and required extensive repairs to the tune of 25K! This boat is also fairly long in the tooth, but with some elbow grease and creative thinking would be a nice racer. I paid a local racer/broker to do an analyisis of what it would cost to make it so, and the estimate came in at over 70K if the work was all done in a yard. This number does not include the purchase price of the boat. If anyone cares to know, I offered 52K, and they came back at 62K, and once I found out about the grounding decided not to counter.

I have also looked at the J35C in Seattle. It is located in the ship canal near the Ballard Locks. The boat appears neglected in terms of cosmetics (has been on the market since at least March) externally, but the interior is pretty nice. No refrigeration, and the chartplotter and wind instruments want replacement. Sails are old. They are asking 120K, well above any recent similar sales on SOLD BOATS, and 20K above the one listed in New York on Boats.com. The NY boat looks like it has some nice sails, but it would cost 10-12K to get it to the west coast.

I live in Montana and keep a condo in Seattle, and would like a boat there to do a little racing and cruising. If Maturin would consider a partnership, that would be one fast way to save 50% on purchase and expenses.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

StephenMaturin said:


> Any other suggestions now that I've come to grips with my true self (my true self not being Stephen Maturin of the Patrick O'Brien series)?


I second the 80's Ericsons. I sail on a 34 similar to this one 1987 Ericson 34-200 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com regularly and they are great boats. Very comfortable and really smart design. They love the light air. The PHRF is around 120.


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## sailoneroad (Jan 24, 2010)

Since we are all tossing around boat preferences, if I may suggest you take a look at the Sabre 34. She will certainly cost you less than 36, and she may have better upwind performance. Not to mention classic lines...


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

Thanks for the suggestions Sailoneroad and Raindog. I'll look into it. I think light air performance is going to be the clincher on any of these, so the Ericson could work out. 

Joebigsky, you saved me a ton of time. I checked out the Express and thought the starboard side deck was probably delaminated, but I didn't know about the other issues. I was thinking 55k for that one if it was without issues, but man, 70k of work still to go?!? You also saved me the trouble of going down to Cali to check out Mar Caballo. It sure looks nice in the ad with the new standing rigging and engine, not to mention the sails. I also agree about the ridiculous price on the J35c. I haven't even looked at it for that reason... I mean they aren't even in the right time zone on that price. (To be fair, it does look like they have done some neat stuff with solar panels, etc).

On the subject of price, it seems like the Seattle boats are relatively more expensive than the east coasters, BC, and some of the California boats... is that just my bias, or have other folks noticed this?

Would you recommend any surveyors you have come across? 

As for the boat share, it certainly is something to consider, but logistically it probably would be hard (I walk to the marina in Gig Harbor from my house and you'd probably want to keep it close to your marina in Seattle). If we split one, we could get a sweet little J 109. 

By the way, the racing up at Whidbey Island today looked like a hell of a lot of fun. Looking at boats after watching that is going to be like going to the grocery store after you haven't eaten all day and standing in the cookie isle.

Thanks again for the help.

-Adam


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## joebigsky (Jul 20, 2010)

*best boats*

Adam:

Was not sure of your exact location on the Sound. I have been in several partnerships that have worked out quite well, and currently share a whitewater raft, drift boat, and whitewater pontoon in Montana, but have got the sailing bug again. For expensive items that one uses infrequently it certainly makes economic sense. I can walk to the marinas in Lake Union or am a quick bike ride to Shilsole, so yes, I would prefer local access. There seems to be more racing action up that way.

The Farr 1020 needs a lot of expensive work. I looked into bringing it to San Francisco (5K) and having some rigging work done at Swenson's (paint mast, 10K) and sailing the singlehanded society races there. I thought it would be nice to add a sprit, Facnor furling assymetricals, vane, new autopilot (the one it has is a very old tiller pilot), new SSB, satphone, etc, etc, and as with most of these old boat fix-ups, would have a 100+K boat worth about 50K on the market. I was very surprised that the current owner, knowing I was flying in, did not get down there and spiff everything up. He was even there when I looked at the boat, and did not seem too apologetic. There was crap all over the place inside, the galley drawers were filled with garbage, there was water damage in various places (?source), and while it does have engine driven refridge, it only holds a six pack and a sandwich. The owner told me that they stored the food in a large cooler in the salon during the 2006 Hawaii race, with a crew of 5.

The J35c interior is much friendlier, and very clean for age, but I would not make much of the solar panels, as they would be shaded by the main most of the time. It does not take much of a shadow to reduce their effeciency. The 35C in Rochester NY does not look as clean inside. I had the broker take detailed photos that reveal several cracked portlights, and staining, etc. I can't just run out to Rochester to have a look; it would cost 1000 to do so, and the complexities of transport, survey, etc, all done remotely offset any savings.

I have been working with a buyers broker in Seattle who looks after my interests, and I have paid him an hourly rate of 65. when he does a project, such as the Express 37 review. He did not sugarcoat the potential costs. It was money well-spent for me, when time is money. There is another 37 for sale back east. It is totally trashed, but could be had in the mid 20's, according to the broker. He said he thought it had "pimples" rather than blisters, whatever that means.

I was going to look at the J109 in Seattle, but the broker told me it was "a mess" cosmetically, so I did not bother, at 180K. There are a lot of nice boats one can find for 180K.

On another note, one can access both a J109 and 35c through Seattle sailing club, and this would probably be the best option for an intermittent sailor such as me. If you have not tried the boats it is also a place to test drive them without any pressure to buy, etc.


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

Joebigsky,

Thanks for the sailing club suggestion. I just called them and they have a J35 and J105 in the club, but not the 35c or 109 (though they are listed for sale on their site). It still sounds like a good option. I'd probably do it if I didn't have to worry about traffic in/out of the city.

Good luck with your search.


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

*Now for Something Completely Different*

Don't know if you have decided what end of the spectrum you want to buy in yet but if you go towards a fast cruiser let me suggest you research the San Juan 34.

Little older than most that you have mentioned, the last SJs left the factory in 1986. They have a more cruising oriented interior and have circumnavigated solo and short handed. A lot of the later boats were delivered by sea to Southern California from Puget Sound. They rate 117 to 141 depending on prep. Most of the boats rate in the 132 range and are PHRF killers in light air. I sail mine in the Channel Islands where winds are strong most of the time. You can find very clean boats in the 20-30k range.


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

*Hey Puddinlegs...*

I found an Express 34 in NY... I might take you up on your offer to see yours.

-Adam


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

StephenMaturin said:


> As for the boat share, it certainly is something to consider, but logistically it probably would be hard (I walk to the marina in Gig Harbor from my house and you'd probably want to keep it close to your marina in Seattle). If we split one, we could get a sweet little J 109.


So which marina can you walk to from your house? I'll likely be at Murphy's Landing come September.

Dave


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

Dave, 
I live up Soundview... On the tides tavern side of the harbor, up the hill (realistically, its 1.5 - 2 miles from my house, so I'm usually too lazy to walk). I kept my boat at West Shore Marina (the next one over from Murphy's) for a while. Both of them have nice big parking lots and seem to do a good job. Prices have dropped recently too. We should meet up for a beer when you get here.

Back to the crew:

I sailed in the Thursday night beer can race this week again and have decided that I'd like to at least hold out the hope of winning one of these things. I'm going to try to get out on a light displacement boat soon to try and better inform my opinion of what I like. I've really only been on the heavy girls and I need to follow the advice noted previously to get out and try these boats on the water. Having said that, conceptually I'd like to stick with one of the lighter boats recommended by Puddinlegs. 

The following boats are on the market and I'd like your input as to which would best:
a. Sail singlehanded
b. Sail well to her PHRF in light air
c. Possibly retain some value (though I realize its a loosing battle)

1987 Farr 1020 in So Cal for 70k. PHRF 117 (Mar Caballo as discussed above. I think I may not need to upgrade as extensively as suggested above).

1987 Express 34 in NY for 70k. PHRF 99. (not as well updated as the Farr, though does have some updated creature comforts)

1984 Kirby 30 in BC for 28k. PHRF 126 as far as I can find on the net as I can't open the PHRF doccument here at work. 

Given that the Kirby is almost 1/3 the price of the other boats and that I could relocate her over water, I'm inclined to favor her. Obviously, that could change after I visit and get a survey. Are any of these good or bad for singlehanders or in light air? 

Continued thanks,
Adam


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Do not quote me, but the Kirby 30 may have been a predisisor to the San Juan 30.US sailing lists Kirby 30's at 126-142, ave 132. Reasonably quick boat for 30'. Now looking at the SJ30 ratings they are some 30 secs a mile slower. THen again, the kirby may be lighter built etc than an SJ too!


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

The SJ30 and the Kirby 30 are both designed by Bruce Kirby but are completely different designs. The Kirby is much lighter and the SJ is a little more cruising oriented.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

StephenMaturin said:


> Dave,
> I live up Soundview... On the tides tavern side of the harbor, up the hill (realistically, its 1.5 - 2 miles from my house, so I'm usually too lazy to walk). I kept my boat at West Shore Marina (the next one over from Murphy's) for a while. Both of them have nice big parking lots and seem to do a good job. Prices have dropped recently too. We should meet up for a beer when you get here.


If and when I get the boat and get it delivered, we can hook up and maybe go for a sail.

Keep in mind the shipping costs for those CA and NY boats. I got a quote to ship a Catalina 400 (granted a much bigger boat) from SoCal. It was about $5k to ship, not including getting it torn down, then commissioned again up here. Figure another $3k for that if I don't do any of the work myself. Take into account the inevitable unforeseen costs and I am conservatively adding $10k to the price of the boat just to ship. A lighter/smaller boat would be less, but not by a lot.

Add that in, and that Kirby sounds a lot less expensive.

Dave


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

Thanks Dave,

Send me a message when you land up here. Is it the Catalina 400 you're waiting on?

-Adam


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

StephenMaturin said:


> Send me a message when you land up here. Is it the Catalina 400 you're waiting on?


Yeah. I go down on the 10th for sea trial and survey. If things are as described, I could have it up here 1 to 2 weeks after that.

Dave


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## Hotfoot27 (Sep 11, 2010)

puddinlegs,

In an earlier post in this thread you mention the Davidson 29, and you seem familiar with the boat.

I looked at one that was for sale a couple of years ago. I loved the design but was concerned about the weight of Kokopele since she was listed as 7,200 lbs, but the Davidson drawing showed a design weight of 5,800 lbs if I recall correctly. 

I heard a rumour from a local surveyor a few months ago that the molds may still be sitting in Port Townsend somewhere (possibly with an unfinished hull inside). Can you tell me if this is true? It would be nice to build one at, or near, the proper weight. Mind you Kokopele was quite quick as she was as I recall. There was also Midsummer. If that was near the proper weight, that might be interesting, but I have no idea where it is now.

Can you tell me if the rumour is true? If so, could you direct me to who I may contact to get some more info.

Thanks


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## jdmexpress34 (Sep 18, 2010)

*Express 34*

I own an Express 34 which I have cruised and raced PHRF on Long Island Sound for several years. It would be hard to find a better built boat, and it has an open and light interior that is very inviting even after 10 or 12 days of cruising. I have mine up for sale, but it is a long way to deliver it to Puget Sound.


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## Bluesmoods (Jul 8, 2001)

The C&C 110: fast, very well engineered, well built, will create a fun safe sailing experience and a comfortable life on board. More expensive than the other vessels you had mentioned, other than the Tartan 3700? Perhaps... in terms of dollars going in now. At the same time, the value of the investment or ROI should be considered as well. The C&C, Tartan and Sabre are all well established high qulity name brand boats.

The construction materials, workmanship and engineering that are all part of the world of C&C make it a unique boat and a pleasure to own. _(No, I don't work for them nor am I a broker for them)._

If you can make it happen, go for the 110 . It will be one of those purchases in life where you will be just so happy that you did. This is among the few_ "production"_ boats that many strive to own and sail.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

jdmexpress34 said:


> I own an Express 34 which I have cruised and raced PHRF on Long Island Sound for several years. It would be hard to find a better built boat, and it has an open and light interior that is very inviting even after 10 or 12 days of cruising. I have mine up for sale, but it is a long way to deliver it to Puget Sound.


Agreed with all the above!!! But of course I'm very biased. Is yours the one on yachtworld with the keel bump? PM me, I'm curious about your experience with rig tension, rake, etc... and that keel bump if it's your boat! _(We have hull #1) _


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## jdmexpress34 (Sep 18, 2010)

Sorry for the delayed response. Yes that is my boat Sabrina on YachtWorld. I bought her from a guy in the industry who had upgraded everything and was sailing out of Newport, RI. He decided to add another 400 lbs to the bottom of the keel to make the boat a little less hot for sailing with his wife and young daughter. Since I cruise a lot with my wife and daughter, I found it worked well for me too, and left it that way, although I took another 3 second penalty on my PHRF rating because of the extra stability it gave the boat.

To tell the truth, I do not have rig tension numbers. The previous guy had marks on the turnbuckles for the general settings and they have worked well enough for us to finish in the money in the local PHRF races. If you have any numbers, I would appreciate you sending them on over.

By the way where are you located??


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Seattle... just checked our current loos numbers early last week. I have them in the boat book. I'll get them tomorrow or the day after and pass them along. So you took a 3 second hit... you're at about 96?


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## jdmexpress34 (Sep 18, 2010)

Look forward to getting your loos numbers. Funny, when I first got my boat, I bought a second-hand headsail from an Express 34 guy in Seattle. I think the name of his boat was Locomotion. Is that the boat you own now???


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## jhoagg (Dec 13, 2010)

Parclan,
Hi. I'm in the market for a 32-36 footer and interested in chatting with you about your C&C 110. Could you email me a number I could call you? Thanks. jeff H


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## Parclan (Jul 25, 2007)

Jeff-
Just sent you a private message.


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## alymatt (Jan 12, 2009)

I own @ C&C 110 with sprit and love it! I race it vs a J 35 / Express 37 / Bene 36.7 and do very well.......

Love the boat to death........

If you want to know know more email me @ [email protected]

CdM


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

*And the winner is...*

C&C 34+

I ended up going with a "performance cruiser" rather than a racer. We closed earlier this week and we're taking our first cruise through the San Juans at the end of the month.

Many thanks to all of you who helped with the process of identifying wants, needs, and probable uses of the boat. You've all got standing beer credits any time.

Thanks again,
Adam


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Nice boat! Good luck with her!!


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