# Yay or nay on Norcold box conversion unit?



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I've been lugging ice for too long. Those of you that have the Norcold SCQT4407 box conversion unit how do you like it? 
Being in the hvacr biz all my life has me thinking too much. it's on sale at Defender for a great price, WHICH is the motivation to get it soon! 







SCQT 4407


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

Yay.
For those who prefer an icebox, or for times when you're afraid of using too much of your battery reserve, you can always use ice. The evaporator doesn't take up that much space. On my boat the autopilot is much more of an energy hog than the fridge. I cool the fridge down as far as it will go while on shore power, then turn the thermostat up or off when sailing to save battery. That is a great price. Almost makes me wish my old one would break.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

Yay, you gotta have refrigeration. Ice is for cocktails 
Once you install this system you can still lug ice if you're concerned about battery capacity. You just won't need to lug as much of it or as often.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

or gets some of those $$$ vertical ice cube trays LOL


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

Yay.

I installed one almost a year ago. We've had it running for as long at the docks so that we don't have to lug eggs, salad dressing, and other things, to the dock every weekend. It works great. It only draws 3 amps while running, and if you are insulated well, that won't be very often.

I bought ours at West Marine, which was competitive when I considered the shipping. It was easy to install (about 4 hours after the planning) and was straight forward. Well worth the $650 or so we spent.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

If you are in the trade you should consider installing a custom system rather than one of those DIY kits. (or at least modifying the kit). The precharged lineset is usually much longer than it needs to be, leaving you with a coil of copper to deal with. The quick couplers will inevitably leak down the road, so why not hard pipe it if you have the skills? I can't see what kind of compressor that unit is running, but Danfoss is the one you want. Their compressors are extremely efficient, multi voltage and variable speed. 

I used to install custom refrigeration systems, and I bought all the components from Nova Kool; Condensing unit, evap plates, cap tube and thermostat. Then you also have the option of going with different evaporator plates instead of having to make the one L-plate work. That may work in your ice box, but some it doesn't fit so well. I used to use 2 smaller plates to make a freezer compartment within the box. On a friends boat we were even able to serve ice cream on a hot day!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Schockt, I've allot of "junk" evaps and all kinds of refrigerants to play with. Sometimes it's just good to get something new. Agreed, Danfoss is the last word in 12volt compressors. Norcold does run a close 2nd. I do wonder, who makes Norcold's compressors? Quick connects leak? Not my experience. a drop or two of R oil makes the difference though. 

The danfoss cu-84 is also has my attention. 

12 ft of copper isn't a problem either.. will get the condenser closer to the battery banks. I know how precise the charge is and see no reason to change the ease of the installation.... brazing,,, nitrogen.. evac... charging.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

deniseO30 said:


> Schockt, I've allot of "junk" evaps and all kinds of refrigerants to play with. Sometimes it's just good to get something new. Agreed, Danfoss is the last word in 12volt compressors. Norcold does run a close 2nd. I do wonder, who makes Norcold's compressors? Quick connects leak? Not my experience. a drop or two of R oil makes the difference though.
> 
> The danfoss cu-84 is also has my attention.
> 
> 12 ft of copper isn't a problem either.. will get the condenser closer to the battery banks. I know how precise the charge is and see no reason to change the ease of the installation.... brazing,,, nitrogen.. evac... charging.


Fair enough. If you aren't prepared to put in the effort, or don't have the skills and equipment to customize a system, by all means, put in a kit! They are a relatively cheap and easy solution.

I'll admit it was very early in my career that I was installing and repairing boat systems. These days I only do it for friends and fellow club members. Having said that, I would say the leading cause of refrigerant leaks in my experience, has been mechanical connections such as quick couplers. For that reason I am a big fan of hard piping systems. Of course if someone is paying a technician shop rates to do the job it can be expensive.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Denise,
I just clicked on the link you provided and the info does not indicate this unit is for "marine" installation. Can that matter for condenser unit?
John


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Geeze Schockt this is not a competition, stop trying to bait me into a wizzing contest of skills and knowledge. I'm sure you are the greatest tech there is because you need to tell me 

CC, all the 12volt units are not in my opinion "marine" since they all have plenty of painted steel. copper and aluminum, stainless never was a great conductor for DX coils.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

LOL! I am not trying to bait you! I was merely pointing out that you had the opportunity to do something more creative than a run-of-the-mill kit because you said you were in the HVAC-R trade. If I have offended you I apologize!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

LOL not insulted. My superheat is within all parameters for an old broad. if it makes you happy to know, we do field pipe systems. Recently a 410A, 2 speed scroll compressor with variable speed indoor blower for a nice couple with a ranch house down the road. (18 SEER heat pump system) the oil burner furnace was put in his garage. fixed the club ice maker (404A) and replaced the condenser on the walk in box last year.(R22) and last summer a 3 zone ductless system for the 3rd floor of a city house. (410A) 

But; no, not going hard pipe a toy unit with 1/4" and 3/16 Liq and Suct line.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Denise, if you have all the copper and other base metal parts gold electroplated you'll have no corrosion problems in a marine installation. And a bit of Loctite or crazy glue will ensure the quickconnects never leak again. (VBG)

WTF. It's at a great price, it requires little work, it will make your life easier? Go for it.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

I have been considering this unit. Two other sailing friends have them on their boats, they seem very satisfied. 

I like the fact that it automatically switches between 12 volt and AC When you plug into shore power, I don't know of any others that do that? 

I've been researching refrigeration for about a year now, I don't think you can't find a better bang for the buck... knowing there is a sale going on for that price looks hard to not pass up. I think I'm gonna pull the trigger and just get one for myself. 

For what its worth, I did try to contact some rv stores to see if the price was less, no success, defender still had the best price!!!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Norcold also is the builder of gas fired refrigerators. Back in the day, (30 years ago?) We used to service a few gas fired central air units. Also very reliable. I'm going to get the unit. I can't find it cheaper anywhere then Defender has it.

Chef, Jamestown Dist. had it pretty cheap but was still higher then Defender. 

locktite.. hate the stuff! LOL


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I have no experience with the Norcold, however when I looked at replacing 3 years ago what ruled them out for me was the fact it didnt have the Danfross compressor. In addition The fact that it switched back and forth from AC to DC was not an issue as I maintain a large battery bank and at the dock where the AC is available, by battery charger is on so I dont care if it runs off the battery ( one less thing to malfuntion. I also wasnt fond of the l shaped evaporator ( we got a verticle one and want more surface area and also a place to put those darned verticle ice cube trays ( we use ours all the time and love having ice in our drinks in the summer as well as occasionally a nice gelato for dessert). The fan on ther Norcold is quite a bit louder than the Alder barbor. Lastly I found the Alde- Barbor to be built to a more robust quality, fan as well as fan coils. It also has a diagnostic mode built into it. My last Alder Barbor lasted over 12 years.

I have not found the quick disconnects are faulty and there is good advice to prevent them. Most units now a days are easy to install. If you can I would reinsulate your compartment. We did so with blow in foam from home depot ( built a frame around the outside). It lowered our average ah usage from 4+ to 2+ even in the summer.

We went with the Alder-Barbor super cold machine with addition water cooling ( which I rarely use except in the heat of summer). I know its twice as much but we got ours for 900 from defender in their winter sale. These are also on sale at Defender

I say go for it.

Shawn- did you drop the keel cooled idea?


Dave


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Doing more research it seems Norcold uses "swing motor" compressors.

The Sawafuji compressor is highly regarded by many manufacturers of high-end refrigeration systems. Most quality refrigerators make use of a compressor driven refrigeration cycle, but not all compressors are equal.

The chief selling point of a Sawafuji reciprocating compressor is its use of the 'swing motor'. 








http://www.fridgefreezersite.com/sawafuji-compressor/

This technology would give "old school" HVAC techs pause for sure.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Denise, at the risk of hijacking the thread, I notice the Norcold unit says it can be used to convert an icebox of "up to 6 cubic feet". I am just wondering if these claims are overly optimistic or not. I am thinking of ditching my propane fridge and building a 12v one. I would go with a top-loading box of, at most, 4 cubic feet with 6 inches of insulation. Would a unit like the Norcold be up to the task? How many amps should I budget per day in the tropics?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Copa, the units with Danfoss BD compresors seem draw around 5 - 8 amps depending on size, and the swing compressors (if Norcold uses them) seem to load out around 3.5. top loading boxes are great except the lid is often overlooked and left loose and uninsulated. 6' insulation is a great although the first 2" is most important. Looking at Don Casey's book on amp hours he lists Re- fridges at 60 AHs for 12 hrs operation. seems high to me, but probably a good guide to build around. The box in my boat is only around 4 cu ft.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Dave,

The keel cooled units are just too $$ for us right now with all the other things we need to do to get sailing again. 

The Norcold unit being discussed here is so inexpenise that its hard not to like it. The only pause I have is that our box is just over 6 cu ft. If and when ever sail more than just weekends and a couple of weeks over the summer, we'll likely upgrade to a more efficeint unit. Right now, I think this will be the best choice, although I have a lead on a Adler Barbour Super Cold unit that "used" but never installed for a very discounted price...


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

That Sawafuji compressor looks like an interesting creature, I must read more about it. As far as I know that particular technology has not found its way into commercial and industrial refrigeration. (at least not the stuff I work on!)
The height of the norcold condensing unit would be a bit of an issue in some installs so make sure you have a good home for it.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Daikin apparently is Schock using the tecnologiy. One of my suppliers is no longer selling Sanyo ductless and asked me to consider Daikin instead. 





I don't know if they will make it into commercial Refrigeration though.. different running environment. and it's doubtful they could provide a good performance on low temp applications.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Hmmm. Our company looks after a couple of buildings that are running Daikin systems. I'll have to go have a closer look. I haven't been to those buildings much but I thought they were running scrolls.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

maybe just the newer ones Schock ck here. Daikin AC: Search Results


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

The Daikin "swing compressor" is a completely different concept from the 
Sawafuji. The Daikin is just a variation on a rotary compressor. There is still a conventional rotary motor.

The Sawafuji, from what I can see, has no rotating parts. It has a piston that moves in a reciprocating motion. It functions kind of like a solenoid piston vibrating rapidly. Something like this I think:


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Here is a better image.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I am looking into a secondary "Deep Freeze" box that will be rarely accessed on our boat. SUper insulated drop in. I would b interested in this unit if it would work.

My question to those in the business: If it can run on A/C and D/C, which is more efficient? Ii ask because I have a very large inverter and running the generator, etc is not an issue also. I have no issue setting it up to run 110 v constantly. Would you (denise or whoever) reccomend this as being more eficient? 

THanks.

Brian


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Me thinks it shoulda been called a spring compressor LOL 
Cdad, I'd say 110 only from shore power. the loss of using an inverter would be higher then using 12 volt from the boat's battery banks.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

deniseO30 said:


> Me thinks it shoulda been called a spring compressor LOL
> Cdad, I'd say 110 only from shore power. the loss of using an inverter would be higher then using 12 volt from the boat's battery banks.


I would second that. Inverters produce heat, which means that some of the power from the batteries is being wasted. If you get the Norcold or a Danfoss based system you can run 110v on shore power and 12 at sea.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Cruisingdad said:


> I have a very large inverter and running the generator, etc is not an issue also. I have no issue setting it up to run 110 v constantly.


Are you sure you're not a closet power boater? :laugher

I have never met a sailor who would have no problem running a generator un necessarily. Most are very apologetic if they have to fire the smelly beast up to charge their batteries! (as opposed to the power boaters who will fire it up so they can use their microwave to reheat their coffee!)

Repent SINNER!:laugher


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Haha! I got a chuckle out of that one. Let me rephrase: I have no problem cranking the gen as needed to recharge batts and run fridge!

I reaslly think a cold plate system would make more sense for my use, but the cost is considerably more. FWIW, I have an adler barbor for main unit now. I have used them since mid 90's. They are extremely dependable. Only time I had to replace it was when some dumb sailor decided to defrost the evap with an ice pick. I'd like to tell u that sailor has gotten smarter over the years, but I think he is as dumb as always but did get a bit wiser!!! (Yep, it was me). 

I have found the key to these units on a boat has less to do with the unit and more to do with insulation in the box. You can go to Lowes and buy sheets of styrofoam and really make a differenmce if you really line that box. If it has a front opening door, cut thick sheets of plastic to reach througfh so u don't dump your air when opening. Pace a foil thermal blanket across the top to keep in cold too. Also, if u use styrofoam to line, make sure you totally cover iit in foil tape. Regular duct tape does not work well and the foil tape cleans easy. 

Thanks all for the thoughts on 110 or 12v. 

Brian


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Pulling the temp down on a bunch of blue plastic picnic cooler pacs does a decent pretend holding plate.If you get below the eutectic freeze point at the dock they'll last a lot better than ice for the week end. I went for the full Monty ;110v water cooled ss holding plate at -20C. I make 5 one gal jugs of ice daily for the on deck beer chest. Plugged in daily so no biggie. If it's fun we do it. P.S urethane panels are much better R value and I think worth the extra $.Consider this in 5 years while you suck a warm beer.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

In all this discussion of the new.. I forgot to mention I've an older R-12 cold machine that needs a module. older 4 pin. nearly obsolete now. It just doesn't make sense to buy a module for something so old imho. Kollman retired, (the 12volt refrigeration guru)


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## AlanF (Feb 27, 2012)

I'm with Denise - no leaks at the connectors on any units I've seen, though I hear there are some with rubber o-rings that deteriorate, not sure if they're still made. And all that tubing is there so you can put that condenser waaaaay out of the way where there's lots of cool air. 

I *think* that Norcold unit uses the Sawafuji compressor, which is pretty much the only option other than the ubiquitous Danfoss ones. If that's correct, they're the same ones used in the Engel portables. If anyone has experience with them over the long term, I'd be interested to hear. 

On another note, there are a number of Danfoss kits that are essentially the same as the Adler Barbours, for around $800 - $900, from some of the smaller suppliers (pridemarine.com, baymarinesupply.com, us.binnacle.com).

Alan


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Ordered the unit! After the warranty runs out I'm going with a box type evaporator that I have from the cold machine. or maybe not.. I like ice too but but don't like $30 ice cube trays LOL


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

You ordered the Norcold Unit?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Let us know what you think after you've installed it. I was actually contemplating picking one of those up myself after reading up about them. I was going to surprise the wife for our 2 week trip this summer. Unfortunately that idea went out the window when I discovered I need to buy new winches


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

If I see the ice cube trays for sale cheap at Bacons...want me to p[ick them up for you Denise?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I didn't see the trays when we were there Saturday Chef. Yes by all means! thanks! 

Schock the sale at Defender ends this weekend I think. bummer about the winch. I feel your pain..


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

deniseO30 said:


> I didn't see the trays when we were there Saturday Chef. Yes by all means! thanks!
> 
> Schock the sale at Defender ends this weekend I think. bummer about the winch. I feel your pain..


Meh. There's always another sale. As for the winches, I've always wanted self tailing anyway!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Update! it's running! 35* in the box! still need to finish up the mount for the condenser and add more weatherstripping to the box lid. Pics coming!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

actually made it freeze overnight, Guess it's time to address ice cube making...


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

3.1 amp rating.. 40 ish watts... 40% less drawn then Alder Barbour?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Nah, Alder Barbour is just built with metric parts, and as a result has to be measured in metric amps. Once you do the conversion to Imperial, the amps is all about the same.

(WEG)


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

We have our Norcold set at "2" and it stays plenty cold. We're about 4 cubic feet over the 6 that the recommend this unit for, and it still works great. Cycle time is low, too.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Tom, how many amps per day do you calculate your fridge is consuming? How many inches of insulation do you have on your 4 cu/ft box? I ask because I'm considering the Norcold unit in a 3 to 4 cubic foot box with 4 to 6 inches of insulation and I'd like to know what amp draw to expect.


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

copacabana said:


> Tom, how many amps per day do you calculate your fridge is consuming? How many inches of insulation do you have on your 4 cu/ft box? I ask because I'm considering the Norcold unit in a 3 to 4 cubic foot box with 4 to 6 inches of insulation and I'd like to know what amp draw to expect.


I calculated about a 20% duty cycle or about 4.8 hours a day. That comes out to 172.7 watt hours a day and 1209.6 watt hours a week. With 60 watts of solar and 400 watts of wind, and taking into account where we are and how much sun/wind we expect, along with the other things we plan in running, we will be within budget.

Our box is closer to 10 cubic feet, and has around four inches around it. I was going to build a divider if the Norcold couldn't handle the load, but it seems to work great.

If anyone else has calculated their duty cycle, I'd be really interested in knowing what you came up with.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Hey Denise, 

Can I bring my ice cream over????


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

LOL CD that's a tough one. box is kind of small to partition. I could maybe switch over to a different evap that has a door on it. (after the warrenty runs out)


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

deniseO30 said:


> LOL CD that's a tough one. box is kind of small to partition. I could maybe switch over to a different evap that has a door on it. (after the warrenty runs out)


Dearest Denise,

All you need to do is properly insulate as your dear moderator has suggested, then you can:

1) Add Ice Cream
2) Add CD's kids
3) Enjoy an otherwise quiet anchorage with the very enthusiastic swinging from the mast.

Now, I ask you again, can I bring my ice cream over?

Southwest Airlines | Book Flights, Airline Tickets, Airfare

What was your address again???

Brian


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## iluvteak (Feb 2, 2011)

FYI if the freon leaks you'll need a pro to solder in a fill valve. That is my beef with norcold gear. It is not maintenance friendly, at least my ssqt 3407 isn't. It did cool a 6 cu ft ice box tho.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Thanks Teak, I've been in HVACR for nearly 50 years.(all my life) so it won't be much of a problem either way. 

Quick connects need a drop of refrigerant oil then a good 1/4 turn after they reach bottom of the threads. The connectors are made by Aeroquip most likely and they have been around for longer then me LOL a couple of scribed marks on the opposing fittings will allow you to see if either side had moved after awhile. Sorry you had a leaker. They only hold a few ozs of 134, hope it was charged properly.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

deniseO30 said:


> 3.1 amp rating.. 40 ish watts... 40% less drawn then Alder Barbour?


It is my understanding that the new Danfoss compressors draw 3 amps or less once the box is pulled down. They are pretty comparable for amp draw.


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## AlanF (Feb 27, 2012)

SchockT said:


> It is my understanding that the new Danfoss compressors draw 3 amps or less once the box is pulled down. They are pretty comparable for amp draw.


They can be set for ~ 2.3 to ~6.5 (for the BD35), depending on the speed you want to run them at. To some degree it's a trade-off of speed versus run time. The slower speeds with longer run times are more efficient, but with slower pull-down, so yeah, about 3.2A @ 2500 rpm is usually the best setting for a reasonably-sized box. Don't think I've ever seen one run at full speed.

I've been playing with a USB temperature data logger I got for about $20. Lets me see how often it cycles, and for how long. I think I'll do a test with a blanket on top of the box and without, to see how bad my lid seals are.


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