# Daily Runs



## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

Hi, we're currently planning an extended cruise, possibly england -> brazil, and are trying to determine what a conservative figure for average daily run would be. Our boat is a heavy 25 foot steel boat, sail area, approx 350 sq. feet.
Does anyone know of a source for daily run data to give an idea what we should be planning for?
It would be most usefull if it also give the data for that boat such as sail area, displacement length, so that a meaningful comparison can be made?

Many thanks,

Chris


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Hi Chris, please go here CLICK

You can compare your boat with similar boats. And if you don't find your boat like that you can add it there.

It's going to be a really really large passage on your boat..you're leaving from England? have you decided on a route yet?

You will, in a boat like that, probably average 4 to 6 knots, with some 11 knot peaks on waves. That is a looong pasage indeed...visit Portugal...it's wonderfull

Good luck...


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

Thanks Guilietta, but I can see my request wasn't all that clear. What I'm specifically after is details of what some boats average daily runs are. 

The data such as their length/beam/displacement/sail area was just so I could make a meaningful comparison to boat similar to mine.

Our boat is a Tom Thumb 24, which comes out with a hull speed of 6.3 knots, and sail area to displacement ratio of 15.33.

Thanks again,

Chris


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

I'm too junior to be able to post a link to our proposed route! But it goes something like:

England
Canaries
Recife Brazil
.......lots of brazil....
Down to Uraguay
Up to carribean
Back to england

Looking at something like 2 years.
Our current speed plucked out of thin air for planning is 3.5 knots, which would give daily runs of 84 miles.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Well it depends on the boat, crew, conditions, etc.

I average around 10 knots, sometimes a bit more, sometimes less. Normaly for me, where I sail, and when I cruise or ferry the boat, I allways calculate ETA based on 10 miles in one hour, and so far..right on...

in fact lately I have done more than 10 miles/hour.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Ahh you have to Stop in Portugal...in a place called cascais..I'll wait for you there for dinner.

Alex


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

Cascais looks quite convenient to our route...so may well do, thanks for the kind offer  

Wow 10 knots average! - that will be a figure definately beyond our dreams in our small boat !


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## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

Chibb,

not aware of any site or resource that would give this info. Best I can offer is _The Voygager's Handbook_ by Beth Leonard gives 120-125 NM for a 40ft "traditional" yacht, which would be a "heavy" yacht. This average worked out as 67-72% of the hull speed.

Your boat would get no where near these average runs. Based on your hull speed of 6.3kts and if you could get the same percentages your average would be 4.2 to 4.5 knots, or an average daily run of 100 to 108NM.

The other thing to do is start measuring all your coastal passages and see what your average speed is. Then take a bit off for night sailing, which will probalby be slower.

have fun, Ilenart


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

Thanks Ilenart, I've got the book, will find that section now. Sounds like a useful guestimate


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

Sadly we're not leaving till July 2009.. have to start and finish boat insides


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Chibb...I'll be waiting for you, then... CLICK HERE FOR MARINA DETAILS

When you're here, if you are not too tired of sailing...I'll let you have a go at 10 knots..OK??

Let me know when you're coming, OK?

Look for a boat called Giulietta, in cascais...easy to spot..ehehehe

Alex


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## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

chibb said:


> Our current speed plucked out of thin air for planning is 3.5 knots, which would give daily runs of 84 miles.


That sounds like a good conservative figure. If you get there faster, so be it.

Canaries to Brazil is a bit over 2,600NM, or a 31 day passage based on your stats. Sounds like fun!

Ilenart


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Your estimate seems reasonable*



chibb said:


> Our current speed plucked out of thin air for planning is 3.5 knots, which would give daily runs of 84 miles.


With a 27 foot waterline I used 100 miles for planning purposes and generally did a bit better. I think your estimate makes sense. What you will actually do depends on factors like what wind belt you are in. In the trades on a broad reach you will do better, reliably day after day. In the Westerlies every day can be different. Another factor is how much you can/want to motor on windless days.

I think it is better to be conservative in your estimate than the reverse. If you get somewhere a bit early you have more time to explore. If your planning it so ambitious you will spend all your time playing catch-up and not enjoy it nearly as much.


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

I say 90 to 100 would be very good going


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

Motoring will almost certainly be out as we've just got an outboard.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

chibb said:


> Hi, we're currently planning an extended cruise, possibly england -> brazil, and are trying to determine what a conservative figure for average daily run would be. Our boat is a heavy 25 foot steel boat, sail area, approx 350 sq. feet.
> Does anyone know of a source for daily run data to give an idea what we should be planning for?


Average daily runs are meaningless until after you have arrived at your destination. Based on reported "Average daily runs" we expected our crossing to take 26 to 30 days, not the actual 55 days. I'm guessing your boat is not a great light air sailer. I'd plan for any voyage to last three times longer than reported averages.










This is what it looked like for four days. That is 0.0 MPH just 120 miles from our projected landfall. We eventually drifted close enough to be within motoring range. My boat is faster than yours BTW.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

chibb said:


> Our current speed plucked out of thin air for planning is 3.5 knots, which would give daily runs of 84 miles.


Chibb,

That sounds about right, maybe a bit optimistic. I know the Roberts Tom Thumb boat design is a stout vessel, she'll take care of you, but I would not expect any great turn of speed from her especially passing through the doldrums.

Not trying to discourage you, just want to make sure you provision adequate food and water for the longer legs of the trip. Hopefully you'll make better runs and have more time to spend at your destinations!

P.S. For those unfamiliar with this design, it is similar to the PSC Dana 24, but usually in steel and a bit larger. Neat little boats:

Tom Thumb


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Never having crossed an ocean on a sailboat yet, wouldn't it be good to have some fuel for that outboard so you could motor until you found wind? As Vega points out, zero knots does nasty things to an average speed, and you could run the outboard at a slow, effficient rpm. I would think that adding some fuel bladders (and jerry cans) would decrease the amount of food and water needed, and therefore make a reasonable trade-off.

But like I said, I haven't sailed across an ocean yet.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Bene505 said:


> Never having crossed an ocean on a sailboat yet, wouldn't it be good to have some fuel for that outboard so you could motor until you found wind? As Vega points out, zero knots does nasty things to an average speed, and you could run the outboard at a slow, effficient rpm. I would think that adding some fuel bladders (and jerry cans) would decrease the amount of food and water needed, and therefore make a reasonable trade-off.
> 
> But like I said, I haven't sailed across an ocean yet.


Bene,

The conventional thinking is that the distances we're talking about on an ocean voyage are so long that motoring for a half a day or more would not make much difference, wind-wise. With an outboard, you would go through A LOT of fuel in 24 hours of motoring. Best to save it for when it's really needed (landfall) and wait for the wind to come to you.

At least, that is the usual thinking in small boats like these. But even many larger boats on longer passages adopt the same philosophy. On a boat your size for instance, you'd probably burn close to a gallon an hour, which would consume quite a bit of your reserves during a 2-3 day windless stretch on a 3-4 week Pacific passage.


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

JohnRPollard said:


> Chibb,
> 
> That sounds about right, maybe a bit optimistic. I know the Roberts Tom Thumb boat design is a stout vessel, she'll take care of you, but I would not expect any great turn of speed from her especially passing through the doldrums.
> 
> Yes, we've done a reasonable amount of sailing in F4/5 in her and she goes along nicely at 5/6 knots, but haven't done much at all in the lighter stuff. Thinking of having twin running headsails (twizzle rig). One hanked on, one free flying (wire luff) to give around 400 sq foot area.


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

Bene505 said:


> ... you could run the outboard at a slow, effficient rpm. I would think that adding some fuel bladders (and jerry cans) would decrease the amount of food and water needed, and therefore make a reasonable trade-off.
> 
> 
> > Thats a very interesting point, one which perhaps I shall have to look into. We've currently got just a 5 gallon tank, but are thinking of fitting 2 10 gallon tanks in the cockpit (and enclosing in a think plywood case to keep the direct sun off).
> ...


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> With a 27 foot waterline I used 100 miles for planning purposes and generally did a bit better. I think your estimate makes sense. What you will actually do depends on factors like what wind belt you are in. In the trades on a broad reach you will do better, reliably day after day. In the Westerlies every day can be different. Another factor is how much you can/want to motor on windless days.
> 
> I think it is better to be conservative in your estimate than the reverse. If you get somewhere a bit early you have more time to explore. If your planning it so ambitious you will spend all your time playing catch-up and not enjoy it nearly as much.


Yes that definately the way round we'd prefer to end up, having extra time, not always being "late" - thats not cruising!


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

Giulietta said:


> Hi Chris, please go here CLICK
> 
> You can compare your boat with similar boats. And if you don't find your boat like that you can add it there.
> 
> ...


And finally I'm senior enough to post a like to a possible route we're looking at:


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Consider going Bermuda-Azores on the way home. The non-stop Great Circle Route may be a bit shorter, but it takes you through some potentially challenging patches and makes for a VERY long leg on the Atlantic crossing.

That is, unless you have a special interest in the Flemish Cap!


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

With an assumed average speed of 3.5 kn (daily run: 84 miles)
We can do the route shown previously in just under two years with a laziness factor of 2.3 (ratio of sailing:not sailing)

If I drop down the speed to 2.5kn (daily run: 60) the route can still work, but with a laziness factor quite a bit lower 1.4.

Now there's another question. What "laziness factor" have you sailing with ? With my current thinking, even as low as 1:1 would seem fairly reasonable, if I think sail for a week, spend a week in a place...


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

JohnRPollard said:


> Consider going Bermuda-Azores on the way home. The non-stop Great Circle Route may be a bit shorter, but it takes you through some potentially challenging patches and makes for a VERY long leg on the Atlantic crossing.
> 
> That is, unless you have a special interest in the Flemish Cap!


That sounds a much better plan, just adds 220 miles.

Flemish Cap... yes... doesn't sound inviting, remember it being where the boat in Perfect Storm was fishing when it all went a bit wrong!


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

That route is for the Queen Mary II and her ilk, not little ity bitty sailboats like you or me


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

*A better route without the flemish cap!*


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Chibb, just curious ... why is one of your legs along the south Brazilian, Uruguayan and Argentine coasts planned as an offshore leg with a stop at Trindade? (at least it looks like Trindade- the map is garbled on my screen). Is it on the way down or back up that you plan on going offshore? Also, what months are you planning on going down the coast? There are better times in the year to do that stretch, although north of Rio any time of the year is going to be fine with a minimal amount of weather watching. And by the way, great choice of cruising grounds!


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

copacabana said:


> Chibb, just curious ... why is one of your legs along the south Brazilian, Uruguayan and Argentine coasts planned as an offshore leg with a stop at Trindade? (at least it looks like Trindade- the map is garbled on my screen). Is it on the way down or back up that you plan on going offshore? Also, what months are you planning on going down the coast? There are better times in the year to do that stretch, although north of Rio any time of the year is going to be fine with a minimal amount of weather watching. And by the way, great choice of cruising grounds!


After heading across the pond from england, to Recife Brazil, the route goes down the south america coast. Plan is to arrive Recife in Start October, and to leave Argentina by End March the following year, heading offshore, via Trinidade/Martime Vaz back to the northern side of south america, exploring till around the end of the hurricane season in October, then up into the carribean, then eventually back across the pond.

The offshore leg, which as you suggest correctly passes Trindade/Martim Vaz on the way to the carribean was to avoid fighting the Brazil current which appears to run down the south american coast, and to get out into the possibly more favourable winds around the high that centres between africa and south america.

This part was also shown in the "Sailing ship routes" chart.

Any thoughts on this theory?


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

copacabana said:


> Chibb, just curious ... why is one of your legs along the south Brazilian, Uruguayan and Argentine coasts planned as an offshore leg with a stop at Trindade? (at least it looks like Trindade- the map is garbled on my screen). Is it on the way down or back up that you plan on going offshore? Also, what months are you planning on going down the coast? There are better times in the year to do that stretch, although north of Rio any time of the year is going to be fine with a minimal amount of weather watching. And by the way, great choice of cruising grounds!


I presume from you Bio that you're currently cruising Brazil? Any suggestions on good sources of info, haven't found all that much on cruising in Brazil. Thanks, Chibb.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Chibb, it's just that I've never heard of anyone going offshore like that before. Normally everyone just goes back up the coast, usually riding the tails of cold fronts, depending on the season. I don't think the current is that strong onshore, or at least I've never noticed it ... 
As far as information on cruising Brazil- there isn't all that much in English (or even Portuguese for that matter). You woud do well to buy Marçal Ceccon's book on cruising Brazil. There's an English version. I'll find a link and post it for you later. If you need anything, just let me know.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

A final comment- if you are on a limited schedule, you're taking on a lot of area for cruising. It'd be a shame to do it in a hurry. Between Recife and Santos you have some pretty amazing cruising areas. Enough for years of cruising really. If Buenos Aires is part of your plans (and it should be), you might give thought to leaving the boat in Santos and taking a bus down through Uruguay to BA.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Chibb, it's the fourth book on the list. The link is to a nautical bookshop. I'm pretty sure they can take a VISA order and ship to you. Do you read in Portuguese? If yes, I can provide a few more sources.

A Moana Livros especializada em Náutica e Aventura


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Chibb, I can't seem to stop posting! Another quick thought. There is a wonderful cruizing rally that leaves Buenos Aires under the name "Crucero de la Amistad", going north picking up boats in Uruguay and sothern Brazil and joins up with another rally in southern Brazil till Rio. In Rio it then joins up with another rally called the "Cruzeiro Costa Leste" that goes up to Recife. It's an informal rally and nothing at all like you imagine a rally to be (ARC etc.). Very informal, a good group of people, modest boats and unpretentious. The fees are cheap and don't even begin to cover all the free T-shirts, BBQs and meals in port, not to mention berthing at yacht clubs. Anyhow, once they all get to Recife most join the Refeno race (Recife to Fernando de Noronha). Again, more light-hearted fun. You can even join a rally that goes back to Cabedelo from Fernando de Noronha sposored by the municipal government of Cabedelo. They pamper the participants with more free food, berthing and parties. If you still have a liver after all this, you can then head north to the Caribbean (almost all downhill from there).


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

A link with a map:

:: Associação Brasileira de Velejadores de Cruzeiro::


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## chibb (Nov 24, 2008)

copacabana said:


> Chibb, I can't seem to stop posting! Another quick thought. There is a wonderful cruizing rally that leaves Buenos Aires under the name "Crucero de la Amistad", going north picking up boats in Uruguay and sothern Brazil and joins up with another rally in southern Brazil till Rio. In Rio it then joins up with another rally called the "Cruzeiro Costa Leste" that goes up to Recife. It's an informal rally and nothing at all like you imagine a rally to be (ARC etc.). Very informal, a good group of people, modest boats and unpretentious. The fees are cheap and don't even begin to cover all the free T-shirts, BBQs and meals in port, not to mention berthing at yacht clubs. Anyhow, once they all get to Recife most join the Refeno race (Recife to Fernando de Noronha). Again, more light-hearted fun. You can even join a rally that goes back to Cabedelo from Fernando de Noronha sposored by the municipal government of Cabedelo. They pamper the participants with more free food, berthing and parties. If you still have a liver after all this, you can then head north to the Caribbean (almost all downhill from there).


Thank you very much for all that information, I shall have a look at the book, unfortunately I don't know portuguese. The rally sounds like it could be very good fun! Many thanks, Chibb


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

If I can think of anything else in English I'll let you know. If you have any specific questions I'd be happy to try answering them for you.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

For what it's worth, there was a Contessa 26 in our harbor near St Louis, MO, USA a month ago called "BIKA" that sailed from Norway. Google can find their website, it is interesting reading. Although lighter weight than your Tom Thumb, she's roughly the same size and sail area. Their web site shows their route, time for crossing, etc. They took out the diesel and attached an outboard (I think it was 10 HP) to increase storage space. They crossed from the African coast to South America in 19 days, as I recall. If you use the same route and figure 25 days for a heavier boat, bring 40 days worth of food--things happen! Bika is now on her way to the Galapagos, planning to truck across Mexico to avoid high cost of the Panama Canal.


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