# Sticky  Tips For Compound, Polish & Wax



## Maine Sail

Buff Polish & Wax

Try these products (for Gel-Coat only not intended for Awlgrip)

The Cliff Note Version:
Steps:
*#1*-Clean the hull with an acid-base cleaner like FSR, oxalic acid, or On & Off to remove rust & tannin staining. (only if necessary)​​*#2*-Wet Sand by hand 600 (if really bad) then move up the grits to P1000+ (only if severely oxidized otherwise you can start at #3)​​*#3*-*3M Marine Rubbing Compound* or *Presta Gel Coat Compound* (use a wool 3M super buff COMPOUND grade pad like the #05711) (if already fairly shiny start at #4)​​*#4*-3*M Finesse It* or *Presta Ultra Cutting Creme* (Use a foam 3M #05725 pad or 3M Yellow Wool # 05713 *Note:* Yellow wool is far easier and far more forgiving for a novice and will also last a LOT longer than any foam)​​*#5*-(OPTIONAL STEP) *Presta Chroma* - Use 3M #05725 foam, #05713 wool, or Blue Presta wool pad.​​*#6*-*Collinite #885 Fleet Wax Paste Version*- or *3M Performance Paste Wax*. For a polymer coating, I like *AwlCare* or *Nu-Finish*​
* The Full Detailed Version:*

*Tools & Supplies:*
To be successful in completing this project you'll need a few items first. Don't be bashful in pulling out the wallet for these supplies, and while you do, think about how much money you're saving over a new Awlgrip paint job. The tools for this project can be used and will last, for years and years and with each use they cost you less.

*#1) Buffer*- A good rotary buffer is an absolute necessity. Unfortunately, one of the cheapies from Wal*Mart or Auto Zone doesn't count as quality and will yield rather poor results. If you're buffing the soft paint of a Yugo these buffers might work but not on a 30+ foot sailboat. The "cheapies" ultimately can't handle the loads & run either too fast or too slow for the material & pad combination you are using. They also cant usually accept quality polishing and buffing grade pads.

A machine with a thumb-controlled speed dial will be the best money you spend on an orbital buffer. I use a Makita model 9227C and it's proven itself to be a reliable and top quality machine. Most of the boat yards around here also use the 9227C for buffing and also with 7 & 9" sanding discs. The 9227C comes equipped with a thumb dial for easy access and instantaneous speed control and turns speeds from 600 rpm to 3000 rpm. The difference between my Makita and my brother's old Sears Craftsman is like night and day.

There are many manufacturers of speed-controlled circular buffers but Makita, Milwaukee, Flex (German company) & DeWalt build about the best and most reliable units. When buying a buffer it's important to buy a unit with a "no load" motor. "No load" means that no matter how much pressure you put on the buffer it will still spin at the speed you set it at. While some boaters have found a cheapy Makita knock-off buffer that will work they rarely last or can handle the loads. For a one-time job or a small boat, a Chinese Makita knock-off might be fine. If you want one of these Harbor Freight has one for about $40.00.

*Buffer features that matter:* 1) No load speed. 2) Weight (lighter is better when working overhead). 3)Thumb control speed dial. 4) Low speeds 600 rpm is a very useful speed but many circular buffers have a slow speed of 1000 rpm. 5) Soft start; this helps prevent sling upon startup. A power cord and handle design that makes cord replacement easy. 6) For gelcoat you want a rotary/circular machine NOT a dual action...

*#2)Buffing Pads-* You will need two or three grades of buffing pads or discs. I only recommend 3M pads because they are easy to find and most Napa Auto Parts stores stock them. The 3M heavy wool Hookit Superbuff pads are great for the compounding phase the part number is - 05711. For polishing the yellow wool Hookit polishing grade pad #05713 is another favorite. You can also use the 3M foam polishing grade pads like the #05725. They are wonderful for adding the finishing touch.

Use a heavy wool compounding grade pad for the compounding, and a polishing grade wool #05713 or the #05725 for the polishing stage and the same #05725 foam pad for the finishing or glazing stage.

I'll use 3M professional grade foam pads #05725 for the polish & glaze stage but I also use some Lake Country CCS pads. When buffing a gelcoat hull it's important to match the aggressiveness of the pad to the phase of the buffing though you can experiment too and have great results. You will just not get a good final shine using a heavy compounding grade pad even if you're using Finesse It or Chroma 1500 with it as the wool itself is too coarse.

*#3) Microfiber Rags-* Honestly, these are the best invention for buffing & waxing since the buffing machine. I've been using microfibers for years and years on antique cars and trust me they have come way, way down in price since their introduction.

A pack of three microfiber rags used to cost me in the vicinity of $40.00 but now you can buy a pack of three at an auto parts store or, gulp, even Wal*Mart, for about $3.00-$4.00. Occasionally Sam's Club will have them in 18 or 24 packs for about $12.00. When buying microfiber rags be very wary & conscious of the quality. A good rag will look more like a good quality terry cloth towel, with thick full loops. In short, it will be nice and robust and the quality will be visible to the naked eye. Even the worst quality microfiber rags will still outperform the best quality terry cloth so don't worry too much. Again, these rags are amazing and they will save you time! Trying to compare terry cloth or cotton rags to microfiber rags, for this job, is like pairing Michael Moore & Bode Miller in a ski race. There is NO comparison..

*#4) Wet Sand Paper-* Usually, any good quality wet-sand paper like 3M is fine and grits of P600-P1000+ are what will be necessary. If your hull does not need a wet sanding don't bother buying it. You can actually wet sand the entire project then after P2000+ simply do a polish phase but this can be a LOT of work.

* #5) Compounds-* All compounds & polishes are not created equally. Avoid buying any compound that uses terms like "essential oils" or has the word "silicone" on the label. Compounds with these additives are intended for novices. Unfortunately, these products, like 95% of the "one step" products will give a false & premature shine. This premature shine is caused by the "essential oils" or "silicone" & will cause you to stop polishing before you've actually polished anything due to this false shine. They add these lubricants to the product to make the wheel spin easier and to make you think you are getting a great shine. Sadly the shine is fake, premature, and caused by "essential oils or silicones":doh:

Perhaps the best, of the easily available compounds, is 3M Marine Rubbing Compound. I've used it with very good success over the years and it works. Is it the best compound? No not at all. Do I regularly use it when compounding? No, but I still do on occasion. 3M Marine Super Duty Rubbing Compound is a good product and it would be considered "paint shop safe" meaning it contains no "cheater oils" like silicone.

If you want very, very good products look up Presta Products online. Presta Gelcoat Compound is a GREAT compound that leaves a surprisingly high level of shine before you begin to polish. Presta is generally sold only through body shop distributors and is water-based (zero oils), but also worth every penny. For the average guy who just wants his boat shiny 3M is decent. If you're part of the anal-retentive crowd, who will settle for nothing but the best, do yourself a favor and look into Presta Products it's basically all I use these days and it performs well above the 3M stuff.









*#6) Polish-* After the compounding phase you'll need to polish. 3M Finesse It II is a good choice for a polish. I've used many bottles of Finesse It II and it's readily available and "paint shop safe". Unfortunately, Finesse It II does have some chemical binders or carriers in it that give a minimal pre-mature shine. A quick wipe down with a spray bottle of denatured alcohol and a rag gets rid of this so you can see the real shine you've created.

Again, for the next level, Presta Ultra Cuttting Creme with the yellow wool #05713 pad is a great step to follow the Gelcoat Compound with. It is my #1 choice for both light compounding and polishing. This unique product, like all the Presta compounds and polishes, uses a very high-quality diminishing grit media that starts out more aggressive than Finesse It II but finishes finer than it thus avoiding another full step.

*The Process:*

Buffing and waxing a boat the right way takes time and is a commitment. On a gelcoat hull of 36 feet I would plan on about 5 hours for doing a two-step polish, & wax or about 6-8 hours for a two-step glaze & wax. This is once you get caught up, after your first re-condition, including a wet sanding or compounding, it's usually only a two-step process each spring. Unfortunately, the first season of re-conditioning may take you up to 20 hours if your hull is heavily oxidized. It's a commitment but gives a beautiful finish.

*  One-Step Products:*

Contrary to popular belief there is no such thing as a one-step solution for wet sanding, compounding, polishing, and waxing a fiberglass hull. The saying "you get what you pay for" is true and a $10.00 - $18.00 bottle of "one step" cleaner wax just does not cut it if you truly want your boat gelcoat fully reconditioned. Unless you're pinched by time and are satisfied with a quickie job, and many boat owners will be, you may want to stop reading here. Using a one-step cleaner wax is like going to the "touch-less" car wash and ordering the "wax" option for a Porsche. It's just not the same as doing it the hard & old-fashioned way.

*  Cleaning the hull:*

Before wet sanding or compounding can begin you should thoroughly clean the hull. For this process, you'll need a cheap rain suit, duck tape, rubber gloves, and some ON & OFF, On & OFF Gel or FSR gel (basically acid) and you'll ultimately want a full face respirator rated for acids.. Duck tape where the gloves meet the raincoat so you don't get acid on your skin while reaching over-head, preferably DO NOT reach overhead but rather do it from a platform or ladder to wash the boat. I find using On & Off, and a car wash brush, as effective, but far quicker, than applying FSR gel, and they are both made of the same basic components (acids). Be careful these ARE acid-based products!

Buy a roll or sheet of plastic and rip it with a razor knife into 12-inch wide lengths. Tape this to your dry hull surface at the water line using 3M green film tape (which seems to work) at the top but let it hang on the bottom as a "drip edge" skirt. You do this so the acid in the ON & OFF does not eat the copper bottom paint and can drip on the ground vs. the bottom paint. Wash and rinse quickly a small area at a time and do this preferably before you bottom paint just in case. On & Off is basically FSR without the gel. However, you can wash much faster with ON & OFF than you can with FSR. The ON & OFF will bring back the white of the hull by removing the metals or tannins. Tannins are that rusty orange discoloration you get from the ocean over time that attaches to the gelcoat. You'll be amazed at the difference in the color of your hull! Even hulls that don't look bad look amazing after a thorough washing with On & Off. This is a very good place to start before waxing if your boat is older than a few years. Be very careful not to get On & Off or FSR on aluminum rub rails, metals, stanchions, cleats etc. because it will pit them. Only apply FSR or On & Off to a gelcoat hull! Allow about 20 minutes for the skirt set up and 1/2 hour for washing the hull.

 *Removing the oxidation:*

To do it right you must first remove all the oxidation. This will be achieved either by wet sanding, starting with P600 grit, if really bad, and working up to P1000 grit plus. Wet sanding by novices should always be done by hand. Unless you're a seasoned body shop professional do not use a machine to speed up the wet sanding process. While gelcoat is very thick & most hulls can be wet sanded & compounded numerous times, compared to Linear Polyurethanes such as AwlGrip or Imron, a novice with an electric or air sander can chew through and ruin the gelcoat quickly if not fully experienced. Doing this by hand, and keeping the paper rinsed and wet is the key to getting a good result. One trick is to add a little dish detergent to the water bucket as this lubes the paper and helps rinse the gelcoat chalk off when you dip the paper. I like to use a soft damp kitchen sponge as my backing block and it matches the hull contours nicely.

*Compounding:*

If the hull oxidation is minimal a good heavy-duty rubbing compound, such as 3M Heavy Duty or Presta Gelcoat Compound and a 3M compounding grade wool pad #05711 or Presta black pad can and should be the starting point. You'll know quickly after testing a spot with the compound if you'll need to wet sand. If you need to spend more than 2-3 minutes on a 2X2 area your using the wrong machine, compound, pad, or a combination of the three or you need to start at wet sanding. I can not stress enough the importance of using a compounding grade pad with a compound and a polishing grade pad with a polish. While it is fine to use a polish-grade pad with a medium compound like Presta Ultra Cutting Creme you don't want to use a heavy-duty pad with a polish or you won't get the desired result.

When compounding do keep in mind that a compound is like liquid wet sandpaper. Therefore, you should keep your pad damp at all times. I use a misting bottle filled with water for this but don't overdo it. If you are getting lots of small dot "sling" the pad is to wet. If you are a novice I do not advise attempting to use the buffer to "dry buff" or to "buff off" compounds or polishes. Running the pad dry, as in buffing until the compound is off the hull, is something best left for PROFESSIONALS or until you have the confidence and skill to go there. You can very easily damage your hull if you are not experienced at "dry" buffing. I've seen burned and permanently discolored gelcoat from novices attempting this. This is part of the reason they put Silicone in compounds and it's because most people don't understand the concept of how to use a buffer.

As a beginner, your buffer should be considered just that a buffer and not a "remover". Work a 2-foot by 2-foot area first going at a slow speed of 600 then slowly up to 1000 for 30-45 seconds then turn the dial up to 2k+ but below 3k and stop before it is dry. Next, wipe the residue off while it's still in the "damp haze" mode. Don't let it dry or it will be a bear to remove unless you wet it again. This will show you how much more you need to do or if you can move to the next 2X2 area. ALWAYS, ALWAYS keep the pad and machine moving!!!

Apply compound in a criss-cross, not a circle (note the mist bottle of water):








*Edging the pad is for pro's or after you get comfortable with the process & machine !!*








*Right Way - keep it FLAT..*









*After compounding phase only using Presta Ultra Cutting Creme (no sanding was done here 30 year old gelcoat)*:








*Pre-compounding Phase:*









 *The polishing phase:*

This is perhaps the most important because it gives that deep wet look to the hull even before you wax it. Skipping the very important polishing phase, and using an aggressive compound only, will leave very small, barely visible, scratches or "swirl marks" in the gel coat that will absorb more UV light. It may look very shiny after this step but the sun & UV see the swirls. These micro ridges and valleys or micro scratches, if you will, actually create a more exposed surface area, and thus oxidize the hull more rapidly. This is why you should polish the hull as the second phase or third phase depending on your level of oxidation.

So phase 1 is wet sand (if needed), phase 2 compound, phase three polish.

Contrary to popular myths & beliefs you should not be dependent on the wax for the shine of your hull. The wax is a protection layer only and a final sealer to keep the elements at bay and to minimize pollution and dirt from binding to the hull. Unfortunately, most DIYer's actually skip the polishing step thinking compounding is polishing. It's not. Once the hull is polished I do a phase called glazing step (overkill for most unless you're totally OCD) and then two coats of Collinite Fleet Wax. Most often one coat will suffice but for a really long-lasting finish, two coats are best. I normally do three at the waterline because this is where the wax sees the most abuse.

The same techniques apply to polishing as do compounding.

*After polishing but before wax:*









*Glazing Phase (optional):*

The fourth step, or glazing phase, would be considered overkill by many but this is the step where you literally make the hull surface as smooth as glass removing any traces of "swirl marks". By using products like Meguiars #9 Swirl Remover or Presta Chroma you eliminate micro scratches and slow the oxidizing by creating even less surface area for the sun's UV rays to degrade.

Don't worry though, if you stop at 3M Finesse It II you're 90% of the way there and this level of polish is plenty good for most boaters and will last a long time if done right and with patience.

*Understanding Grit Levels:*

What is grit level? If you were to rate various products on a 1-10 scale of grit (1 being least aggressive & 10 being most) wet sanding at P600 would be a 10 or most aggressive, compounding with a heavy-duty compound would be a 6-7, Finesse It a 3-4.5, #9 or Presta Chroma a 1-3 and wax a Zero.

Using the above scale as a guide you can see why you would not want to jump the compounding phase to a wax. Stopping at the compounding phase will leave swirl marks or micro scratches, which creates more surface area, to absorb UV rays. Stopping at the Finesse It phase will leave considerably less aggressive swirl marks but they will still be there all be it very, very minimally. Going all the way to a glazing phase will leave virtually zero swirls and prolong the time between oxidation's re-appearance. Even deep scratches can be minimized by feathering the edges. The sharp edges of a scratch are what make it highly visible. Rounding off these edges through compounding and polishing greatly minimizes the visibility while still preserving the surrounding gelcoat thickness...

*One-Step Products / Liquids:*
Don't be fooled by the "easy application liquid carnauba waxes" I've yet to find one that lasts and I've tried many of them! Trust me I did this for a living when I was younger and no one wants to wax a mega yacht every three months! I used to work on and detail "shiny boats" (mega yachts) and found Collinite Fleet Wax #885 paste version to be the longest lasting and hardest of the Carnuba's. Practical Sailor, not once, but twice now has backed up my own personal finding crowning Collinite #885 the king of paste waxes. There are others but Collinte is truly a great product.

One way to test if your wax will pass the test of time is to watch your waterline. If it becomes yellow the wax is dead and gone! With Collinite #885 you can get 6-8 full months without any yellowing at the waterline. No other wax I've tried has even come close.

There are literally hundreds of waxes out there and any one of them is better than none. I only recommend the above waxes because I have used them and found them to be very durable. I have also used many of the "marine" waxes including some of the "Teflon" based products, but again, none worked as well as the old-school paste Carnuba's.

* More Process Tips:*
When buffing & waxing a boat, out of the water, a good trick is to cover the bottom paint with at least 2" blue tape so you don't accidentally buff and wax the bottom paint. It's important to tape neatly so you get wax as close to the bottom paint as you can without actually getting it on the bottom paint. I usually do a 3/4-inch width tape followed by a 2-inch width giving me plenty of tape to save my buffing pads. Fouling of your buffing pad, with bottom paint, is the end of that pad until you can wash it in a commercial washing machine. To keep "sling", what happens when you use a rotary buffer, and it throws white dots of compound up onto your deck, off the decks, I bring old cardboard boxes to the boat yard. Lay them on the deck directly above the area you're working protruding about 12" over the edge of the deck. The cardboard overhang will catch any "sling" on the way up and it will save you huge amounts of time cleaning white dots off the surface of your deck!

Blue Tape:









*Tips for keeping it clean:*

*1)* With two coats of a paste Carnuba on the hull I only wash the boat with IMAR boat wash or Awlwash the soap made to wash Awlgrip. These products are great and also safe, and IMAR is also approved & safe for washing Strataglass dodger windows. The reason I use IMAR Boat Wash is that it's the only product I've found that cleans well but does not prematurely break down the wax. With IMAR I'm still beading after 7-8 months. Avoid the use of any soap with a built-in wax or one that's a heavy detergent-based product and by all means do not use Joy, Palmolive or dishwashing detergents as they eat waxes for lunch. You can order IMAR products from Defender or directly from the IMAR website although Defender is cheaper. Using this and a very soft car wash brush on a stick works well and does not ruin your wax job.

*Tips for applying the wax:*

*3)* Do I apply the wax by hand? Yes! Please don't apply or remove the wax phase with the buffer. I use the 4-inch round Meguiars foam applicators you can buy at an auto parts store and a spray/mist bottle of water like you use for ironing. The spray bottle is the secret trick for applying a true Carnuba wax. Simply mist the hull and liberally apply the wax. Wait for it to haze over to about 80-90% of dry and buff by hand with a Micro Fiber rag. Avoid terry cloth as microfibers work many times better. Once you use a Micro Fiber detailing cloth for waxing you'll wonder how you ever survived without one. The spray of water helps it attach and buff out to a harder, shinier easier to wipe off finish. It's sort of like when you get your shoes polished and the guy hits them with a mist bottle and then buffs the shine up. This trick does not work with most of the polymer/Carnuba blends like the 3M paste but it's like gold with the Collinite Carnuba..

Another trick is not to wax a large area! I'll do a two to three-foot wide swath from toe rail to waterline marking where you are waxing at the toe rail with a piece of blue tape. Also leave a little residue on the leading edge so you'll know exactly where to start. You'll wipe this leading edge when finished with the next swath leaving another leading edge to go off of. It moves along much faster than it sounds.

Over the years I have experimented at length with using my buffer to remove the wax but I find the frictional heat is bad for it and it does not shine as well or last as long as a good hand application and hand wipe. Buffing it off by hand gives it a harder shell because it's cooler and does not re-melt the curing wax with the friction of a buffer. On my 36 footer, I use only four Micro's where it used to take about a dozen terry cloth rags. I buy my Micro Fiber rags at Sam's Club or Wal*Mart. I used to buy them from Griot's Garage when they were the only ones who had them and they were HUGE money! Try and find the best quality Micro*Fiber you can it will make a difference. Sometimes the quality of the Sam's Club Micro's is poor so I go to Wal*Mart or an auto-parts store.

On concourse quality show cars pure carnauba wax is applied with bare, clean fingers & a mist of water and then removed with microfiber rags. This is how I waxed cars growing up. Bare fingers on a 36-footer are far too time-consuming but I have actually done it.

* Tips for decks:*

*4)* I personally compound and buff the smooth but generally not the non-skid. I don't wax the decks with anything but Woody Wax but I don't find that it actually protects all that much so it may be a wasted step.

One insider secret is that less distortion in the reflection shows a very good polish/glaze with virtually no swirl marks. If the items in a reflection, such as a ladder, seem distorted the polishing is not up to par. You can also hold a ruler at 90 degrees to the surface and see how far you can read it. The further you can read the numbers the smoother the surface. Here I used my watch.









*Info on pads, compounds and rags:*

As for maintaining the wool buffing pads, I wash them alone on COLD with Woolite in a home front load washing machine. Sometimes it may take two cycles to get them clean. Please do not dry them in a dryer and don't wash them on hot. They are wool and a hot wash or dry will literally change the pad grade. A polish grade pad can become a compound pad fairly quickly so wash cold and then air dry. I rarely have to clean a pad, during a buffing project, unless I'm doing a boat that is badly oxidized. Use slow speeds and light pressure to prevent compound burning. You can also use a mist bottle of water, very sparingly, to give a little moisture to the hull and lube the pad. This however will create more sling so you're best to go slow and keep the compound wetter. The secret is to keep the pad "damp" if it dries, it burns, and you'll need a "spur wheel" or spigot wash to field clean it. Spurs are available at an autobody supply shop or auto parts store but I really, really dislike them and find there is not much need for one at all.

A trick I use for a "field clean" of the pads is to remove the pad from the buffer and rinse it under a boatyard spigot scrubbing it with my fingers until it's clean or in a 5-gallon bucket filled about 1/3 with fresh clean water. I then re-install the pad on the buffer and spin it at the buffer's highest speed inside a 5-gallon bucket to catch the sling. Spin it until no more water spins off on the inside of the bucket. Once done with that use a towel to get it as close to dry as possible. This is the method I use as I feel it's much more thorough than a spur and does not make your pad black from metallic residue. With water-based compounds a "field clean" is very easy!!

*Field Clean - Wash*:









*Field Clean - Spin Dry:*









*Cautions On Cheap Products & Pad Care*

A word of caution about "cheap" compounds and polishes that may contain silicone or wax or oils. These silicones or oils will not easily wash out or come, clean of the pads and will eventually ruin them. Use water-based 3M, Presta Products or similar but carefully read the labels to make sure it says, "does not contain silicone". If a product says "paintable" or "body shop safe" it most likely does not contain silicone.

As for the microfiber, rags do not use any sort of fabric softener it will ruin the rags. You can wash them on warm or hot though...

* Compound / Polish products I use:*

*My favorites:

Presta Products - Gelcoat Compound* = Heavy compound but finishes with a deep shine
* Presta Products - Ultra Cutting Creme* = Starts medium/heavy but diminishes & finishes comparable to Finesse It II
*Presta Products - Chroma* = Glaze

If your boat is not too badly oxidized Ultra Cutting Creme with a 3M #05713 pad can get you there in just one step plus the wax..! This is my absolute favorite product for compounding / polishing.

*Others:*

3M Marine Super Rubbing Compound
3M Finesse It - Polish
Meguiars #9 Swirl Remover - Fine polish that makes a great gelcoat glaze

*Wax I use:*

Collinite #885 Fleet Wax - Paste Version (Contains less than 2% silicone most of its competitors contain 30% or more silicone)

I cut my teeth on concourse quality cars like this. My father would have been pretty unhappy with me if I toasted a 25-30k paint job.. Boats are easy compared to cars like this.










EDIT:

This photo was sent to me by forum member RBone who read this and previously had little experience. YES, it CAN be done..


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## soulesailor

Thanks for re-posting, Maine. This will make searching for this info. much, much easier when I'm ready to get my boat ready in...in...oh, boy, still a while yet. Can't wait!


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## edstill

MaineSail- 

Great rundown. Thank you very much. One question- I was looking at the Collinite "Fiberglass boat cleaner" the other day. Do you know anything about this product? It was unclear to me if it is a polish or a compound. 

Thanks


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## Maine Sail

*Never*

I've never used that product so I can't honestly comment. In general Collinite makes great products but for cleaning there are sooo many..


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## jackytdunaway

I searched and printed last years post last night. If i had just waited a day?

Thanks for the great info Maine Sail


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## jason3317

Quite simply, another superlative post / how-to from Maine Sail.

Excellent.

Jason


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## TSOJOURNER

Thanks for the great information which I will be putting to use shortly. I have 2 questions.
1. How would you deal with a 6" wide, dark blue painted strip on a white hull? The painted strip is about 3" down from the toerail. Would you tape if off and do it separately or could you compound it at the same time as the topsides?
2. I bought a Makita 9227C. Would you recommend getting the 3M-05711 Hookit™ SBS Compounding Pad to use with the hook and loop backup pad that comes with the Makita? Or would you suggest getting the 3M-05710 Mandrel Adapter and using double sided compounding pads such as a 3M-05703?
Thanks for the help.


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## Maine Sail

DanLegg said:


> 1. How would you deal with a 6" wide, dark blue painted strip on a white hull? The painted strip is about 3" down from the toerail. Would you tape if off and do it separately or could you compound it at the same time as the topsides?


This is always a tricky situation. The paint will likely have some oxidation if a one part paint. If it is oxidized the blue paint will come off on your pad and be spread into the white gelcoat making for quite a mess of the pad and hull. If the stripe is Awlgrip it should not be buffed anyway.

I would advise taping over it with 2" wide blue masking tape then buffing the hull. When you're done the hull tape off the white above and below and buff the blue but only if it is not Awlgrip.



DanLegg said:


> 2. I bought a Makita 9227C. Would you recommend getting the 3M-05711 Hookit™ SBS Compounding Pad to use with the hook and loop backup pad that comes with the Makita? Or would you suggest getting the 3M-05710 Mandrel Adapter and using double sided compounding pads such as a 3M-05703?
> Thanks for the help.


I use both systems. I like the hook & loop for polishing and the double sided pads and mandrel for compounding. Sorry for the non-answer on this one..


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## camaraderie

I clicked on the wrong thread and accidentally composted my boat! 
Thanks for setting me straight Maine!


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## timangiel

awesome post


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## JimsCAL

Thanks for putting this up now and saving me the trouble of searching!!

Question: I have a problem with getting water line stains VERY quickly (within a week after launch). Any suggestions on how to combat this?


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## T37Chef

*Wax Sealers?*

Maine Sail,

Whats your take on wax sealer such as this:









yachtpaint.com - the website of International and Interlux paints


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## gc1111

I just looked at some AWLCare. They specifically do NOT recommend machine polishing. Yet when the yard "waxed" my awlgripped topsides last year (the first time I had them do it) they used machine buffers.
Comments from the pros?????


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## drfreddie

awesome post. Any suggestions on how to remove an old strip, home location and name ??? The strip may have been taped on. Thanks


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## Maine Sail

gc1111 said:


> I just looked at some AWLCare. They specifically do NOT recommend machine polishing. Yet when the yard "waxed" my awlgripped topsides last year (the first time I had them do it) they used machine buffers.
> Comments from the pros?????


Ummm They are clearly have trouble with reading comprehension at the least...

AwlCare has zero abrasives, no matter how much you buff you'll only leave swirls from the pad.. This is why you can't always trust the hacks working at certain yards..


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## Maine Sail

T37Chef said:


> Maine Sail,
> 
> Whats your take on wax sealer such as this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yachtpaint.com - the website of International and Interlux paints


While I have not specifically tried Interlux's product I have tried a number of the "miracle" products that contain teflon. I my experience they have never been able to hold a candle to a real paste carnuba like Collinite.

I rememebr very well when Starbrite launched their new "teflon" wax in the late 80's. The owner of the sport fishing yacht I worked on came prancing down the dock with a case of it ready for us to apply it to all surfaces..

One month later we were re-waxing the entire vessel with Collinite. My shoulder still hurts just thinking about that expereice. For a couple of weeks I remember thinking this was going to be my new favorite product, as it went on easily, but it also wore off just as easily..

It sure sounds interesting but so have many... Give it a try and let us know what you think!!


----------



## PorFin

Maine,

Very glad you renewed this topic.

I'm gonna have to wet sand before I compound, and I'd like to ask for a little more advice:

When do you know to transition from 600 to 800, then to 1000, etc? 

Thanks in advance,
PF


----------



## JiffyLube

I printed out the first, highly detailed article you did on this subject a while back, and I'm looking over this article to see if there is anything new I can add.

Thank you Maine


----------



## Boondoggle30

*Awlgrip versus Painted boats*

Good read. Question though, if my boat is PAINTED with Awlgrip and not gelcoat'ed... do I need to wash/wax/buff or does she just need a good cleaning/scrubbing annually??

I know I need to take care in 'scrubbing' as to not take the paint off... P/O had entire boat painted as the gelcoat apparently was starting to show signs of wear and tear.

Thanks in advance.

Al


----------



## sailingdog

*Do not wax or buff awlgrip. * Wash it. Don't scrub it either... if you scratch the surface, you're going to be screwed.


----------



## gc1111

AWL sells recommended products for their paint. My boat is AWLgripped and until last year I simply washed and waxed (with good wax, not polish!). I then had the yard prepare the boat for launch and they used AWLwash and AWLcare. However see my previous about machine buffing. But I will say the boat has not looked as nice except just after it was painted. This year I ordered some of the AWL stuff and plan to use it as directed.


----------



## preservedkillick

Great information Maine Sail. Nicely done. Interesting that the wax is just a protection layer. I was planning on skipping the wax, with the intention of painting my topsides in the fall or next spring. Now I wonder if I can bring my topsides to an acceptable appearance just by going through your steps an skip the painting. I'd like to keep the gelcoat if I can..one less thing to worry about.


----------



## ereiss

*3M pad conversion to Lake Country?*

Halekai;

Thank you for the highly detailed write-up. On my prior boat I did the "dip in plastic" but with my new to me Freedom I really want a proper wax finish. Your contribution is invaluable.

Could you, would you provide a conversion from your 3M pad recommendations to the Lake Country ones? While you say the color determines the aggressiveness I am really using your work as a cookbook approach and don't want to add too much of any spice to the recipe.

Thank you in advance for your help.

Ed 
Being There
Freedom 38 #154
out of Jamestown, RI


----------



## glnosail

*Lake Country pad matching*

I have the exact same question as above. I bought the 3m Superduty rubbing coumpound, Finesse it II, Maguires Swirl REmover, Maguires Show Car glaze, Lake Country CSS pads, and 3M wool pad. In practice, I realized I didn't know exactly WHICH lake country pad to use with Finesse it II, Swirl remover and Show Car Glaze. I can see the order of courseness in Lake Country's brochure, but they use terms like 'finessing' and 'swirl remover' that don't seem to follow the order of products with the same words in the labeling. At one point, I seemed to end up with less shine after applying swirl remover with a finer pad than what I had with Finesse it II and a more coarse pad. Also, can you provide the best machine speeds to use at each step? I also am a recipe kind of guy, so exact instructions are helpful. I suppose over time a person gets a feel for it, but to start I'd like to follow an exact guide. MaineSail, your help is invaluable! Thanks in advance for all your advice and any follow up you can give.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

*Hull wax*

Thanks for the Info. If I can't a good shine following that, nothing will. Thanks again, Pop


----------



## rhoudini

*colored hull deep south..*

Hello, I am new in this foro I have been reading a looking for information to remove the oxidation and wax our boat. it is a 40 sundancer.

the only thing I am not sure is between fleet wax #885 and insulator wax.

we have a blue hull and we are located at Miami-Florida

which one we should use? I was thinking use Fleet Wax 885 but now I am not sure.

"If you are in the deep South, or have a dark colored hull, don't bother with a Carnuba"

Thanks so much! very nice post!


----------



## Maine Sail

*Insulator*

For your area, and colored hull, I would opt for insulator wax..


----------



## rhoudini

*Customer Service answer!!!*

Thanks for your fast answer! 
I Ask the same question to a customer service guy just to now what they said about this. 
here his answer: 

"If you are asking that the wax would melt off the finish once applied and then exposed to hot temperatures, that is false. The #845 Insulator Wax basically has the same ingredients as the #885 Fleetwax except the #885 has a higher concentration of them. We sell a ton of each in the South and have no problems like the one mentioned.
Now maybe if you left the can in a mall parking lot all day exposed to the hot sun, then I would say it would melt.

Mike Oczkowski
Customer Service"

I will go for insulator wax at least I'm sure that one is going to work fine. people suggest fleetwax but i don't want to take that risk


----------



## arisatx

*Presta Cross Reference Chart*

Maine:

Thanks for your "as usual" comprehensive and informative posts.

I used your tips to help revive our cabin house last summer - my dock neighbor said in jest that if I made it any shinier, it would be a hazard to navigation. :laugher

While normally bad form to revive an old post (Forum Admin: this one should be a sticky), I came across a new cross reference chart published by Presta that my help subscribers to this post, so I thought I'd put the Presta X-Ref Link here.


----------



## jaschrumpf

Is there a way to determine whether the paint job is awlgrip or gelcoat? I know nothing about marine paints, but the hull on my '75 Newport 28 is a nice navy blue, and could use some sprucing up. The PO is long gone and probably didn't know anything about the paint anyway. It looks like a non-pro job, as there are ripples in the finish.

What should I do to figure out which type I have?


----------



## JohnRPollard

arisatx said:


> While normally bad form to revive an old post (Forum Admin: this one should be a sticky),


I agree. Consider it done, and thanks for the suggestion.

P.S. If anyone is aware of other Maine Sail classics that should be stickies, please bring them to my attention and I'll be happy to take care of it. These very helpful and instructive posts shouldn't be buried in the depths of the forum.


----------



## Bazzer

*Tips for car cleaning please!*

Maine Sail, 
I thank you for taking the time to share "trade secrets" with us. I know this is strictly a boat forum, but you mention many hours of cleaning and polishing classic cars. Being the proud owner of a all black H1, I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction as to cleaning and shining it. Should I follow your boat instructions or not?
If this is not the appropriate place to answer this maybe you could give me a url or two.
Thanks,
Barry


----------



## saildog1

I don't think that process would work but you can try it on my Tartan 3800 if you would like, please. I'll by lunch.


----------



## Maine Sail

Bazzer said:


> Maine Sail,
> I thank you for taking the time to share "trade secrets" with us. I know this is strictly a boat forum, but you mention many hours of cleaning and polishing classic cars. Being the proud owner of a all black H1, I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction as to cleaning and shining it. Should I follow your boat instructions or not?
> If this is not the appropriate place to answer this maybe you could give me a url or two.
> Thanks,
> Barry


Barry,

Quite different for cars and dependent upon the paint type. For cars I now only use RO buffers and foam pads from Lake Country. I do use Presta Chroma 1500 though just not the more aggressive stuff.


----------



## harbin2

Maine Sail
Thanks for the great job of documenting this process and sharing it. I have done a scaled down version of this twice now (the last two consecutive Springs) with pretty poor results. I am using some of the right materials but I need to upgrade my buffer and take more steps. In my last attempt, I cleaned the hull with some (probably inefective) Greased Lightning spray cleaner, compounded the hull with 3m heavy duty compound (using a cheap buffer with a cheap wool pad), applied Finesse 2 with a cotton rag, waxed with Collenite 885 and hand buffed with a microfiber. I'm getting some of it right but I'm very unhappy with the results. At this point, I'm just wanting to protect the hull from further oxidation till next Fall (the boat - a 1881 Islander - goes back in the water soon) when I can do a more correct and thurough job. 

After reading your original post again, I do have a couple areas that are unclear to me. 
1. Pre-cleaning. I think this was my first big failing. I have read about using MEK, Tourlene, dish soap, etc. You suggest on/off. I have all these products but I'm still a little confused about what is for what. I want to remove Wax and imbeded dirt.
2. Getting a shine. I don't think I'm removing enough. The compounding seems to go pretty well but when I wipe it off, there is still little shine. I'll try wet sanding first next time. However, what ever I do get with the compound, when I follow it up with Finesse, the finish gets worse. I have basically stopped using Finesse because of this. 

Thanks again,
harbin2


----------



## SVCarolena

harbin2 said:


> compounded the hull with 3m heavy duty compound (using a cheap buffer with a cheap wool pad), applied Finesse 2 with a cotton rag,


Seems like the problem is applying the Finesse It with a cotton rag. In order to get the best polish (and this is the step that really brings out the shine), you need a good buffer and foam pad for the Finesse It. Compound alone will not give you a shine. You could use a fine wool pad for the polish, which is what we use, but it does require more skill to avoid swirls. Like Maine Sail, I spent many of my early years buffing cars. What really surprised me is that the Mikita polisher still seems to be the industry standard. Of course, we didn't have the fancy speed control units back then, nor did we have foam pads (really had to be careful not to burn the paint), but the technique is the same. Anyway, try the Finesse It with a buffer before resorting to wetsanding, I think you will be pleased with the results.


----------



## hazmat17

*nooks and crannies?*

I'd like to give my thanks for this thread as well...

I'm pulling the supplies together now - have the buffer, sandpaper, presta compounds - need to get some wool/foam pads.

One question - is there a smaller buffer that you'd recommend for the topsides nooks and crannies? areas the 7" machine won't get into...


----------



## sailingdog

Fein multimaster??



hazmat17 said:


> I'd like to give my thanks for this thread as well...
> 
> I'm pulling the supplies together now - have the buffer, sandpaper, presta compounds - need to get some wool/foam pads.
> 
> One question - is there a smaller buffer that you'd recommend for the topsides nooks and crannies? areas the 7" machine won't get into...


----------



## jason3317

Has anyone ever heard of or used this product: Aqua-Buff.

Aqua Buff - Gives you a swirl free shine! Polishing compound, compound polish, marine polish, polyurethane compound, buffing compound


----------



## SVCarolena

hazmat17 said:


> I'd like to give my thanks for this thread as well...
> 
> I'm pulling the supplies together now - have the buffer, sandpaper, presta compounds - need to get some wool/foam pads.
> 
> One question - is there a smaller buffer that you'd recommend for the topsides nooks and crannies? areas the 7" machine won't get into...


Like the Dog said, or another alternative is that I've seen buffing pads that will fit a palm sander (the round random orbit kind). However, I've never used one so can't comment on how well it works.


----------



## arisatx

SVCarolena said:


> Like the Dog said, or another alternative is that I've seen buffing pads that will fit a palm sander (the round random orbit kind). However, I've never used one so can't comment on how well it works.


Metabo SXE400

The 3" pads from Griots work well on the unit also.


----------



## hazmat17

thanks folks - been eying the fein for other purposes....


----------



## T37Chef

SVCarolena said:


> Seems like the problem is applying the Finesse It with a cotton rag. In order to get the best polish (and this is the step that really brings out the shine), you need a good buffer and foam pad for the Finesse It. Anyway, try the Finesse It with a buffer before resorting to wetsanding, I think you will be pleased with the results.


Used the Finesse It last year for the first time, makes a huge difference. Many people commented on how good the hull looked, and it has kept the shine.

The only thing I have been doing in addition to what MS suggest is apply Interlux Teflon Wax Sealer, it's easy to apply and seems to prolong the bead and shine, but I cant say its doing anything significant?


----------



## jetdrvr393

*Windows?*

Many thanks for the great article. I have followed your instructions and my 31 year old hull looks great. Now it's time to do the topside and I have a couple questions. I bought the Makita polisher and am concerned about the windows and other detail areas that are smaller than the the diameter of the wheel. How do I go about getting in to those areas and can I tape of the windows with blue masking tape safely to avoid them? Or do they make a smaller diameter buffing wheel I can use in these areas?

Thanks

Joe


----------



## Maine Sail

oomfh said:


> Do I care if I get On & Off on my bottom paint if I'm going to sand and paint the botton _after _I clean, polish and wax the hull?


Yes, especially if it is ablative. The acids will eat the copper right out of it..


----------



## sailingdog

Actually, no, if you're going to sand and paint the bottom AFTER you clean and polish the hull.



oomfh said:


> Do I care if I get On & Off on my bottom paint if I'm going to sand and paint the botton _after _I clean, polish and wax the hull?


----------



## Paalderson

thank you so much for the informative post. We purchased a new Jeanneau in August of 09, the hull obviously looks pretty good and I would like to keep it that way. I am unsure after reading through your post where to begin with a new hull and would appreciate your thoughts. Also Jeanneau is known to wax the molds pretty heavily, is this detrimental to the process and how do I determine that? Thanks again...
Patty
s/v Patriche II
Jeanneau 50ds
Annapolis


----------



## rmtayloriii

I've got the same year of boat in fresh water. Finesse It II then wax. That's all you should need. If you can keep after it regularly that's all you should need for a long time.

Blue Foam from LCC for Finesse It or the 3M foam that has been recommended. I don't see any difference between the two.

I also got a small random orbital polisher from Griot's Garage for the deck which saved me a lot of time and worked well. I highly recommend it for large cockpits and decks.

I haven't found a place that carries Presta stuff so I have not tried any of their products but would like to.

BT
Catalina 400


----------



## arisatx

rmtayloriii said:


> ...I haven't found a place that carries Presta stuff so I have not tried any of their products but would like to.
> 
> BT
> Catalina 400


BT:

Try Presta Online Store - Home


----------



## gallilaw

*Sander/Polisher combo ?*

I have a 23-year-old 27.5 foot sailboat and don't plan on getting anything bigger. I have read some reviews of random orbital sanders, and other reviews of polishers (buffers), but I can't help asking:

Can anyone recommend one tool of reasonably good quality that could perform well as both an orbital sander and a polisher? I know that such a tool might not equal the performance of the best single-purpose sander or single-purpose buffer, but there might be a tool out there that will perform well enough in each category for the limited number of hours I will be using it each year.

Thanks.


----------



## trisailor33

*Polisher vs. Sander*

Most sanders spin too fast to be good polishers. For my boat with lots of small areas needing polishing I use a Hitachi right angle drill at its lowest speed settings. The model is something like Y10BR.


----------



## deniseO30

All day and into the evening (4/20) my harbor frieght 7" sander buffer never gave up the task! I must say, my arms will fall off sometime today! (4/21) Based on the OPs advice My 1982 Oday 30's big blue boot stripe and the creamy white gel coat hull now gleam in the sunlight! Who woulda thunk it could happen?


----------



## harbin2

I have been debating for several weeks which polisher to get. I'm about decided on the Makita. A little over a week ago, I picked up a Harbor Freight 7" electronic for $50. It seemed fine except for one thing. At the lowest speed, it ocillated from about 300 to 1000 rpm. This made it hard to control. I took it back. I asked a guy at the marina if his did the same thing and he said it did. The unit is rated at 1,000 to 3,000. At higher speeds, it seemed to run at a much more constant speed. Have you had the same problem?
Thanks
harbin2
Islander 30


----------



## deniseO30

Low speed does go intermittent, but a little bit higher it's ok and spreads the compound without throwing it off.


----------



## Maine Sail

I bought one of the HFT buffers and unfortunately it is not a very good knock off of the Makita, in any way shape or form. It is not a no-load design and gets very, very hot, to the point of smoking and burning skin, when used or attempted to be used at low speed with a heavy compound and wool pad. 

Just for grins I tried to compound my 10 foot dinghy with and and nearly killed it, smokey electrical stink dead, in about 40 minutes.. 

I suppose if you ran it at higher speeds the fan on the motor and the higher current may keep it cooler but I did not want to be running at over 1500 RPM to do that.. My current Makita has perhaps compounded 60+ vessels all of them at least three times as big as my ten foot dinghy. 

Denise must have purchased one of the good ones..


----------



## hazmat17

Just thought I'd post an update. I have compounded and waxed the hull with presta gel coat & ultra cutting cream. Followed by 2 coats of fleet wax. The results are nothing short of spectacular on my 23 year old Freedom. Perhaps he was just hamming me up, but the yard manager said I could retire from my day job & he'd hire me to poilish boats. 

I've wet sanded the topsides as they showed the most oxidation, much improved, but haven't compounded & waxed yet (waiting for my 3" polisher to show up from griots).

On the topsides I have many black specs that don't seem to sand out, not sure what it is, embedded dirt or mildew? Most of the specs were removed with the wet sanding (400-800 grit), but some remain. I figure I'll compound and seal with wax and hope the sun bleaches them out?

A point of information, the Presta Chroma 1500 doesnt' seem to exist any more. Ultra Polish is thier new "heavy polish" followed by the swirl remover as "medium" and finally hand glaze as lightest. I've got the ultra polish & swirl remover on order, plan to experiment on the topsides this year and then the hull next season...

Regarding upkeep - it didn't take but one rain event for the black water streaks to re-appear (even over the wax), any recommendations on how to treat them, Boat soap alone doesn't seem to do it. Starbrite makes a "black streak remover" Star brite - Catalog - Product Detail. Or perhaps a "cleaner wax" (one with some mild abrasive in it).

Lastly, I'd like to request a similar tutorial on filling scratches in the gelcoat. All the dock rash from the previous owners is now on proud display since the rest of the hull is nice and shiny... Probably next fall's project


----------



## gallilaw

*Hookit pads fit Makita 9227 polisher?*

Will the 3M hookit SBS compound and polishing pads fit the hook and loop backup pad that comes standard with the Makita 9227?

3M's promotional copy makes it seem that their hookit SBS system is non-standard. It would be nice to know if their pads will fit the Makita hook and loop without having to buy a 3M hookit backing pad as well.


----------



## Maine Sail

gallilaw said:


> Will the 3M hookit SBS compound and polishing pads fit the hook and loop backup pad that comes standard with the Makita 9227?
> 
> 3M's promotional copy makes it seem that their hookit SBS system is non-standard. It would be nice to know if their pads will fit the Makita hook and loop without having to buy a 3M hookit backing pad as well.


Yes, it will fit, but the backer that comes with the Makita is rather lame compared to the 3M version..


----------



## pamarine

*Help the newbie*

I just started compounding a 38' that is oxidized. Never done this before, grabbed a 9227cy, some 3M Super Duty Compound, and Finesse It II. I am using a SM Arnold "Tuffer Buffer" Compounding & Polishing Pad #57-375 (It's all the local supplier had).

So far all I've done is the transom, and while it looks great right up close and at off angles, when you stand back about 10 ft it's all uneven and hazy. What am I doing wrong?


----------



## sailingdog

You really should read Maine Sail's post on polishing and waxing...



pamarine said:


> I just started compounding a 38' that is oxidized. Never done this before, grabbed a 9227cy, some 3M Super Duty Compound, and Finesse It II. I am using a SM Arnold "Tuffer Buffer" Compounding & Polishing Pad #57-375 (It's all the local supplier had).
> 
> So far all I've done is the transom, and while it looks great right up close and at off angles, when you stand back about 10 ft it's all uneven and hazy. What am I doing wrong?


----------



## pamarine

sailingdog said:


> You really should read Maine Sail's post on polishing and waxing...


I already did. Other than not using some of the products he recommends, I'm doing the things he's talking about. Not sure where the problem is coming from, hence my post.


----------



## sailingdog

What stage of polishing are you at, or are you just compounding it at this point?


----------



## pamarine

sailingdog said:


> What stage of polishing are you at, or are you just compounding it at this point?


I've compounded and polished with Finesse It II. I'm wondering if I did a sup-par compounding job. But before I go nuts redoing it, just want a second opinion.


----------



## sailingdog

pamarine said:


> I've compounded and polished with Finesse It II. I'm wondering if I did a sup-par compounding job. But before I go nuts redoing it, just want a second opinion.


Photos would help...but I'd recommend you start a thread of your own. Read the POST in my signature as it will tell you how to start your own thread as well as the easiest way to post photos on sailnet. You'll need 10 posts to do so though.


----------



## Maine Sail

pamarine said:


> I just started compounding a 38' that is oxidized. Never done this before, grabbed a 9227cy, some 3M Super Duty Compound, and Finesse It II. I am using a SM Arnold "Tuffer Buffer" Compounding & Polishing Pad #57-375 (It's all the local supplier had).
> 
> So far all I've done is the transom, and while it looks great right up close and at off angles, when you stand back about 10 ft it's all uneven and hazy. What am I doing wrong?


If it was all uneven and hazy you were not done compounding. Until the hazyness or coudyness is gone you can't begin to use Finesse It. The shine should look nearly perfect and very shiny before Finesse It.

You also should not use Finesse It with a compounding grade pad or it won't add any benefit what so ever and may leave it worse off. Contrary to popular belief there is no such thing as a compounding & polishing pad as they are two different grades of pad one much more aggressive than the other. You'd be better to use a polishing grade pad with a compound than a compound pad with a polish.

If you were to use an SM Arnold pad for polishing it would be the #53-375 not the #57-375. The 57-375 is a compounding grade pad not a polishing grade pad..

*The AM Arnold Polishing Pad*

53-375 SPIN BRITE® 4-Ply *Polishing* Pad w/ Loop Backing 7.50" Diameter, 1.50" Wool & Synthetic Fibers, Curved Edge.

*The Compounding Pad*

57-375 TUFFER BUFFER™ *Compounding* & *Buffing* Pad w/ Loop Backing 7.50" Diameter, 1.50" 4-Ply Wool, Curved Edge

P.S. I have NO idea how good these pads are so can't guarantee the results. 3M, Lake Country & Presta all make great pads but there are many companies out there producing pure crap..

If you can get a 53-375 try it with the compound then follow up with the Finesse It using the same pad. Often times some compounding pads will not allow a deep shine because they are just to aggressive..


----------



## pamarine

Yea, I was kind of leary about a "Combination" pad but it was all that was available at the time. 

I think I'm gonna order some of the 3M pads as I know from selling them they are at least quality then go at it again next week.


----------



## wwilson

I rarely read threads with more than a dozen posts - figuring the issue has been laid to rest by then. A mistake in this case, I've just had my boat launched and she looks great, but I'll not know how much better it might have been with these tips and how-to's. I'll apply them next season. Nice Job Maine!

I have learned the right tool over time (by expensive trial and error) and it all leads to the *Mikita 9227C* - what a great beast the thing is! (A perverse admiration for tools capable of snapping your thumb with their torque.)


----------



## gallilaw

*Awlgrip ? How to know for sure ?*

After practically memorizing the steps and equipment mentioned in this post, and buying a lot of it, I discovered that the used boat I bought might have been Awlgripped.

The deck is the original white gelcoat, but the hull is jet black. When I removed a transducer from the bottom, the ring around the hole, where the transducer lip was sealed to the hull, untouched by bottom paint, was shiny jet black. That might have indicated that black was the original factory color; but residue in the bilge where the transducer poked inside the hull indicated that the transducer I replace might have replaced an even older one -- so the hull might have been painted black before the current transducer was added.

Is there any way I can find out for sure it the black finish is Awlgrip?

Thanks.


----------



## pamarine

gallilaw said:


> After practically memorizing the steps and equipment mentioned in this post, and buying a lot of it, I discovered that the used boat I bought might have been Awlgripped.
> 
> The deck is the original white gelcoat, but the hull is jet black. When I removed a transducer from the bottom, the ring around the hole, where the transducer lip was sealed to the hull, untouched by bottom paint, was shiny jet black. That might have indicated that black was the original factory color; but residue in the bilge where the transducer poked inside the hull indicated that the transducer I replace might have replaced an even older one -- so the hull might have been painted black before the current transducer was added.
> 
> Is there any way I can find out for sure it the black finish is Awlgrip?
> 
> Thanks.


I doubt very much that Awlgrip was used below the waterline. It is more likely that it is a thin-film bottom paint that was polished after application.


----------



## bacinmass

Total newbie at this, a couple of questions about the compounding step...
1. How much compound should I use? Am I supposed to reload the pad at the beginning of every 2X2 area? 
2. How does the compound get off the surface? It seems like I'm wiping the 2X2 area down after compounding? with a damp sponge? Damp cloth? 

My 1984 O'Day 26 thanks you in advance!


----------



## Captcraig1

*Need help with using 3M Finesse It!!*

Great thread! I have read through many times and am using it as a guide to restore a badly oxidized (sadly some crazing) blue hull on a '76 Mirage 24. I am using the Makita 9227 and all of the products you recommended but am having trouble with the 3M Finesse It product:

1. makes the polisher jump and hard to handle (tried rpms 1000-2000, applying various amounts of pressure on polisher - using the recommended 3M foam pad).

2. product is effectively removing swirls but is also leaving some cloudy areas of product that streak when I try removing with a microfiber cloth. Continuing to go over it with the polisher/foam pad isn't removing this.

Any extra tips you could mention about Finesse would be greatly appreciated.

CaptCraig


----------



## Maine Sail

Captcraig1 said:


> Great thread! I have read through many times and am using it as a guide to restore a badly oxidized (sadly some crazing) blue hull on a '76 Mirage 24. I am using the Makita 9227 and all of the products you recommended but am having trouble with the 3M Finesse It product:
> 
> 1. makes the polisher jump and hard to handle (tried rpms 1000-2000, applying various amounts of pressure on polisher - using the recommended 3M foam pad).
> 
> 2. product is effectively removing swirls but is also leaving some cloudy areas of product that streak when I try removing with a microfiber cloth. Continuing to go over it with the polisher/foam pad isn't removing this.
> 
> Any extra tips you could mention about Finesse would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> CaptCraig


Try the yellow wool pad. The foam pads with light compounds can get to wet and "suction" to the hull. You can also carefully edge the pad but use the 3M backer NOT the Makita one. The Makita one is very stiff and will create hot spots where you have little contact/pad area on the hull. The yellow 3M backer with velcro referenced earlier is much more flexible and will edge better. Just do be careful when edging or you can burn the gelcoat. You can also dry buff it a little more, meaning buff it until it in no longer cloudy but again be careful. Those directions were written for beginners. Finesse It II can be tricky stuff to work with so just experiment a little. This is why I recommend Presta products.. Ultra Cutting Creme on a yellow wool 3M pad will do what Finesse It does only it can often do this in only one step..

*Polishing* = 3M Yellow Wool # 05713
*Backing Pad* = 3M Hookit SBS #05717

*Ultra Cutting Creme (LINK)*


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## deniseO30

ok.. got the hull and boot stripe looking like new... how about the deck? Do I even want to try and make it shiny again? It's a basic creamy chalk like finish now LOL. Odays' weren't pure white btw


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## Livia

We did a compound, polish, glaze, wax job close to these recs and have had so many people asking about it at the boat yard. She looks gorgeous!


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## Maine Sail

oomfh said:


> Purchased a factory reconditioned 9227c and when I started the compounding phase today - the polisher immedately began oscillating in speed - particularly under load.
> 
> Please tell me this isn't normal.


That is not normal. Set the speed, apply the pad to hull and speed stays the same pull pad from hull speed stays the same. Yours apparently was not properly "reconditioned"..


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## harbin2

I got the same buffer a month ago from Amazon. It runs at a very constant speed, at all speed settings. I had purchased two knockoffs from Harbor Freight. The price was right but both oscillated greatly in speed at the lower speed settings. I returned both. The Makita is a really nice tool - send yours back for a replacement.


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## oceanscapt

Well thought out and knowledgeable article. I printed it out and put it in the Maintenance manual for the crew. It should save a lot of time, especially since we're 145' and 4 decks high. 

Thanks for taking the time to give us all a leg up.


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## night0wl

oceanscapt said:


> Well thought out and knowledgeable article. I printed it out and put it in the Maintenance manual for the crew. It should save a lot of time, especially since we're 145' and 4 decks high.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to give us all a leg up.


Aren't boats that large usually painted...hence making this guide useless


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## mrybas

Forgive me if this has been brought up already, but has anyone used "Aqua-Buff"? I have had a few guys at the marina (the knowledgeable ones) tell me that Aqua-Buff is the only way to compound/polish.....


----------



## Preserved

*Cleaning after waxing?*

I put some effort into polishing and waxing my hull for the first time this spring. With other projects taking priority, I took an afternoon and gave the gel-coated hull an acid wash to remove stains, a quick polish with some auto polish on a foam pad followed with some 3m Finesse It, then Collinite 885 wax. For quickie job it improved the look a fair amount. And I was hoping that it would reduce the stains so next spring I can put more time into this.

One thing that I notice is that the hull (white-gelcoat) stains easier than when it was bare wax-less gelcoat. I've got the vertical grey dirty streaks under each scupper leading to the waterline and the transom has a nasty black swash where the exhaust through-hull. Very unsightly!

Did I not rub the wax out enough?

Safe cleaners to use on wax?


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## highlandman

My 1978 O'Day 22 has, alas, been under-maintained for most of her life. I am prepared -- I think -- to put in the necessary elbow grease to attempt cleaning up the gelcoat, but I am wondering how far gone is too far? The topsides are not bad, but the deck and house are weathered to a white chalky condition with numerous pores that hold tiny bits of black. I can whiten the black with a bleach-type cleaner, but the pores remain. (O'Days were not factory white, btw, but a very light cream color.)
I am not looking for a showroom finish. The 'glass in its current condition is hard to clean and fantastically stain-prone (every danged footprint is near permanent). Will a severe compounding and waxing restore gelcoat in this state to a maintainable condition, or am I doomed to paint because of the porosity?
Eagerly looking forward to learning which of the two daunting jobs I should undertake....
-Glenn


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## highlandman

Oh, and another dumb question.
Will compounding my molded-in blue sheer stripe and boot top stripe smear color into the white (and vice versa)?
If so, how is that avoided?
-Glenn


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## Maine Sail

highlandman said:


> If so, how is that avoided?
> -Glenn


2" blue tape above and below the stripe prevents bleed...


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## stiffwind

the real answer is a wet sanding using 800 and 1000, before you compound and wax....but it's a very time intensive job.


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## southernyankee

Maine Sail,
What is your opinion on putting a clear coat on top of a new awlgrip paint job??


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## Maine Sail

southernyankee said:


> Maine Sail,
> What is your opinion on putting a clear coat on top of a new awlgrip paint job??


So long as it is an Awlgrip clear coat it can be a good thing and it can also take the gloss to the next level. Still can't ever buff it though...


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## albe1066

*What is the coverage area of 1 quart of Presta Gelcoat Compound?*

Hi,

Can anyone give me an idea of approximately how much Presta Gelcoat Compound and Presta Ultra Cutting Creme is needed to cover a 44' sailboat with light to moderate oxidation? The hull is white.

Thank you..

cheers
-allen


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## Tim R.

I would not use both gelcoat compound and cutting creme. They are both buffing products. The gelcoat compound is much more versatile than the cutting creme. Use the Gelcoat compound and then the Presta Chroma 1500 with the appropriate pads and buffer(Makita 9227). Are you doing just the hull or are you also doing the cabin top?

Just the hull would likely take most of a 32oz bottle of gelcoat compound. Buy two of each to be safe.

I tend to dry buff so I do use less material than others.


----------



## albe1066

Thanks Tim, 

Just the hull..

cheers
-allen


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## labatt

We used both the gelcoat compound and the ultra cutting creme. They might both be buffing products, but there is a marked difference after the cutting creme vs. the compound. For our 40' boat we used 1 container of the gelcoat compound and (I believe) a 1/2 container or less of the cutting creme. You have to be sure not to apply too much on the pad or it will never gloss up.


----------



## tap

I have boat with a hull painted with Interlux Perfection, a two-part polyurethane. I've gathered that I should not go at it with a buffer like described here. But what can I do? Just apply some wax? With a buffer or by hand?


----------



## stam22

Hello Maine Sail,
Excellent advice. I used to work at a body shop when I was in college, a long time ago, and back then, you had to cut lacquer paint jobs by wet sanding with 600, and then buff it with the orange compound (name escapes me, petroeum based, very toxic).
When I first decided to polish my boat, I asked an "old-timer" that owned the boatyard, if I should use the same products and procedures. He said 'hell no'. He told me about a product that he used when he worked at Shannon Boat Works. It's called Aquabuff 2000, water based, and it works great on gelcoat. They also make an Aquabuff 1000, which contains more grit. Just wondering if you've ever used them.
Thanks


----------



## Maine Sail

stam22 said:


> Hello Maine Sail,
> Excellent advice. I used to work at a body shop when I was in college, a long time ago, and back then, you had to cut lacquer paint jobs by wet sanding with 600, and then buff it with the orange compound (name escapes me, petroeum based, very toxic).
> When I first decided to polish my boat, I asked an "old-timer" that owned the boatyard, if I should use the same products and procedures. He said 'hell no'. He told me about a product that he used when he worked at Shannon Boat Works. It's called Aquabuff 2000, water based, and it works great on gelcoat. They also make an Aquabuff 1000, which contains more grit. Just wondering if you've ever used them.
> Thanks


Yes I have and they are good products, much better than 3M etc.. I still prefer the Presta products though and that is what I mostly use. Mostly I found the "application" method to be tedious and slow. With Presta I can apply right to my pad and keep the bottle in my tool belt. With Aquabuff the "pail" is awkward and does not lend well to ladders to being holstered in a tool belt for quick seamless buffing without climbing up and down a ladder.

Still, you can't go wrong with Aquabuff and if I recall a 1 gallon pail was about $35.00 and went quite a long way. Good stuff I just don't personally like the application method...


----------



## stam22

Like everything else, the price of Aquabuff has gone up, to about $85 per 2 gallon bucket. If I went through a friend of mine at one of the Brewers yards, I could get it for $60 or $65 per bucket. One problem with it lasting so long, being water based, it would get moldy over the winter, so I would repack it in one quart cans and cover any unused portion with saran wrap, and usually give a lot of it away before it went bad. You are right about it being difficult to apply, always moving the bucket around. I am going to try the Presto products, do you know where I can buy them?
Thanks


----------



## Maine Sail

stam22 said:


> Like everything else, the price of Aquabuff has gone up, to about $85 per 2 gallon bucket. If I went through a friend of mine at one of the Brewers yards, I could get it for $60 or $65 per bucket. One problem with it lasting so long, being water based, it would get moldy over the winter, so I would repack it in one quart cans and cover any unused portion with saran wrap, and usually give a lot of it away before it went bad. You are right about it being difficult to apply, always moving the bucket around. I am going to try the Presto products, do you know where I can buy them?
> Thanks


it's Presta not Presto: *Presta Compounds*

I use Gelcoat Compound and Ultra Cutting Creme

*Presta Polishes*

I use Chroma 1500


----------



## littlelizzy

Wonderful post. Works as stated. I added a coat of Collinite Insulator wax and that stuff is amazing!


----------



## stam22

I will give the Presta products a try. Your pictures are impressive.

I have tried the Collonite products, they work great. But really, the paste wax, does the effort required to take it off really justify using it. It really doesn't seem to last very long. I've had better luck with NuFinsh liquid, as far as long lasting. 
Seriolusly, though, I noticed that you wax it twice with Collonite paste wax, are you taking it off by hand or using a machine?
Thanks


----------



## HELLICONIA54

Maine Sail said:


> Buff Polish & Wax
> 
> Try these products (for Gel-Coat only not intended for Awlgrip)
> 
> The Cliff Note Version:
> Steps:
> *#1*-Clean the hull with an acid base cleaner like FSR, oxalic acid or On & Off to remove rust & tannin staining. (only if necessary)
> *#2*-Wet Sand by hand 600 (if real bad) then move up the grits to P1000+ (only if severely oxidized other wise you can start at #3)
> *#3*-3M Marine Rubbing Compound or Presta Gel Coat Compound (use a wool 3M super buff COMPOUND grade pad like the #05711) (if already fairly shiny start at #4)
> *#4*-3M Finesse It or Presta Ultra Cutting Creme (Use a foam 3M #05725 pad or 3M Yellow Wool # 05713)
> *#5*-(OPTIONAL STEP) Presta Chroma - Use 3M #05725 pad or #05713 or Blue Presta wool pad)
> *#6*-Collinite #885 Fleet Wax Paste Version- or 3M Performance Paste Wax. For a polymer coating I like AwlCare or Nu-Finish
> 
> * The Full Detailed Version:*
> 
> *Tools & Supplies:*
> To be successful in completing this project you'll need a few items first. Don't be bashful in pulling out the wallet for these supplies, and while you do, think about how much money you're saving over a new AwlGrip Paint Job. The tools for this project can be used, and will last, for years and years and with each use they cost you less.
> 
> *#1) Buffer*- A good Buffer is an absolute necessity. Unfortunately, one of the cheapies from Wal*Mart or Auto Zone doesn't count as quality and will yield rather poor results. If you're buffing the soft paint of a Yugo these buffers might work but not on a 30+ foot sail boat. The "cheapies" ultimately can't handle the loads & run either too fast or too slow for the material & pad combination you are using. They also cant usually accept quality polishing and buffing grade pads.
> 
> A machine with a thumb controlled speed dial will be the best money you spend on an orbital buffer. I use a Makita model 9227C and it's proven itself to be a reliable and top quality machine. Most of boat yards around here also use the 9227C for buffing and also with 7 & 9" sanding discs. The 9227C comes equipped with a thumb dial for easy access and instantaneous speed control and turns speeds from 600 rpm to 3000 rpm. The difference between my Makita and my brothers old Sears Craftsman is like night and day.
> 
> There are many manufacturers of speed-controlled circular buffers but Makita, Milwaukee, Flex (German company) & DeWalt build about the best and most reliable units. When buying a buffer it's important to buy a unit with a "no load" motor. "No load" means that no matter how much pressure you put on the buffer it will still spin at the speed you set it at. While some boaters have found a cheapy Makita knock off buffer that will work they rarely last or can handle the loads. For a one time job or a small boat a Chinese Makita knock off might be fine. If you want one of these Harbor Freight has one for about $40.00..
> 
> *Buffer features that matter:* 1) No load speed. 2) Weight (lighter is better when working overhead). 3)Thumb control speed dial. 4) Low speeds 600 rpm is a very useful speed but many circular buffers have a slow speed of 1000 rpm. 5) Soft start this helps prevent sling upon start up. A power cord and handle design that makes cord replacement easy.
> 
> *#2)Buffing Pads-* You will need two or three grades of buffing pads or discs. I only recommend 3M pads because they are easy to find and most Napa Auto Parts stores stock them. The 3M heavy wool Hookit Superbuff pads are great for the compounding phase the part number is - 05711. For polishing the yellow wool Hookit polishing grade pad #05713 is another favorite. You can also use the 3M foam polishing grade pads like the #05725. They are wonderful for adding the finishing touch.
> 
> Use a heavy wool compounding grade pad for the compounding, and a polishing grade wool #05713 or the #05725 for the polishing stage and the same #05725 foam pad for the finishing or glazing stage.
> 
> I'll use 3M professional grade foam pads #05725 for the polish & glaze stage but I also use some Lake Country CCS pads. When buffing a gelcoat hull it's important to match the aggressiveness of the pad to the phase of the buffing though you can experiment too and have great results. You will just not get a good final shine using a heavy compounding grade pad even if you're using Finesse It or Chroma 1500 with it as the wool itself is too course.
> 
> *#3) Microfiber Rags-* Honestly these are the best invention for buffing & waxing since the buffing machine. I've been using microfibers for years and years on antique cars and trust me they have come way, way down in price since their introduction.
> 
> A pack of three microfiber rags used to cost me in the vicinity of $40.00 but now you can buy a pack of three at an auto parts store or, gulp, even Wal*Mart, for about $3.00-$4.00. Occasionally Sam's Club will have them in 18 or 24 packs for about $12.00. When buying microfiber rags be very wary & conscious of the quality. A good rag will look more like a good quality terry cloth towel, with thick full loops. In short, it will be nice and robust and the quality will be visible to the naked eye. Even the worst quality microfiber rags will still outperform the best quality terry cloth so don't worry too much. Again, these rags are amazing and they will save you time! Trying to compare terry cloth or cotton rags to microfiber rags, for this job, is like pairing Michael Moore & Bode Miller in a ski race. There is NO comparison..
> 
> *#4) Wet Sand Paper-* Usually any good quality wet-sand paper like 3M is fine and grits of 600-1000+ are what will be necessary. If your hull does not need a wet sanding don't bother buying it. You can actually wet sand the entire project then after 2000+ simply do a polish phase but this can be a LOT of work.
> 
> * #5) Compounds-* All compounds & polishes are not created equally. Avoid buying any compound that uses terms like "essential oils" or has the word "silicone" in the label. Compounds with these additives are intended for novices. Unfortunately, these products, like 95% of the "one step" products will give a false & premature shine. This premature shine is caused by the "essential oils" or "silicone" & will cause you to stop polishing before you've actually polished anything due to this false shine. They add these lubricants to the product to make the wheel spin easier and to make you think you are getting a great shine. Sadly the shine is fake, premature and caused by "essential oils or silicones":doh:
> 
> Perhaps the best, of the easily available compounds, is 3M Marine Rubbing Compound. I've used it with very good success over the years and it works. Is it the best compound? No not at all. Do I regularly use it when compounding? No, but I still do on occasion. 3M Marine Super Duty Rubbing Compound is a good product and it would be considered "paint shop safe" meaning it contains no "cheater oils" like silicone.
> 
> If you want very, very good products look up Presta Products on-line. Presta Gelcoat Compound is a GREAT compound that leaves a surprisingly high level of shine before you begin to polish. Presta is generally sold only through body shop distributors and are water based (zero oils), but also worth every penny. For the average guy who just wants his boat shiny 3M is decent. If you're part of the anal-retentive crowd, who will settle for nothing but the best, do yourself a favor and look into Presta Products it's basically all I use these days and it performs well above the 3M stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *#6) Polish-* After the compounding phase you'll need to polish. 3M Finesse It II is a good choice for a polish. I've used many bottles of Finesse It II and it's readily available and "paint shop safe". Unfortunately, Finesse It II does have some chemical binders or carriers in it that give a minimal pre-mature shine. A quick wipe down with a spray bottle of denatured alcohol and a rag gets rid of this so you can see the real shine you've created.
> 
> Again, for the next level Presta Ultra Cuttting Creme with the yellow wool #05713 pad is a great step to follow the Gelcoat Compound with. It is my #1 choice for both light compounding and polishing. This unique product, like all the Presta compounds and polishes, uses a very high quality diminishing grit media that starts out more aggressive than Finesse It II but finishes finer than it thus avoiding another full step.
> 
> *The Process:*
> 
> Buffing and waxing a boat the right way takes time and is a commitment. On a gelcoat hull of 36 feet I would plan on about 5 hours for doing a two step polish, & wax or about 6-8 hours for a two-step glaze & wax. This is once you get caught up, after your first re-condition, including a wet sanding or compounding, it's usually only a two step process each spring. Unfortunately, the first season of re-conditioning may take you up to 20 hours if your hull is heavily oxidized. It's a commitment but gives a beautiful finish.
> 
> *  One Step Products:*
> 
> Contrary to popular belief there is no such thing as a one step solution for wet sanding, compounding, polishing and waxing a fiberglass hull. The saying "you get what you pay for" is true and a $10.00 - $18.00 bottle of "one step" cleaner wax just does not cut it if you truly want your boat gelcoat fully reconditioned. Unless you're pinched by time, and are satisfied with a quickie job, and many boat owners will be, you may want to stop reading here. Using a one step cleaner wax is like going to the "touch-less" car wash and ordering the "wax" option for a Porsche. It's just not the same as doing it the hard & old-fashioned way.
> 
> *  Cleaning the hull:*
> 
> Before wet sanding or compounding can begin you should thoroughly clean the hull. For this process you'll need a cheap rain suit, duck tape, rubber gloves and some ON & OFF, On & OFF Gel or FSR gel (basically acid) and you'll ultimately want a full face respirator rated for acids.. Duck tape where the gloves meet the raincoat so you don't get acid on your skin while reaching over-head, preferably DO NOT reach over head but rather do it from a platform or ladder to wash the boat. I find using On & Off, and a car wash brush, as effective, but far quicker, than applying FSR gel and they are both made of the same basic components (acids). Be careful these ARE acid based products!
> 
> Buy a roll or sheet of plastic and rip it with a razor knife into 12-inch wide lengths. Tape this to your dry hull surface at the water line using 3M green film tape (seems to work) at the top but let it hang on the bottom as a "drip edge" skirt. You do this so the acid in the ON & OFF does not eat the copper bottom paint and can drip on the ground vs. the bottom paint. Wash and rinse quickly a small area at a time and do this preferably before you before you bottom paint just in case. On & Off is basically FSR without the gel. However, you can wash much faster with ON & OFF than you can with FSR. The ON & OFF will bring back the white of the hull by removing the metals or tannins. Tannins are that rusty orange discoloration you get from the ocean over time that attach to the gelcoat. You'll be amazed at the difference in the color of your hull! Even hulls that don't look bad look amazing after a thorough washing with On & Off. This is a very good place to start before waxing if your boat is older than a few years. Be very careful not to get On & Off or FSR on aluminum rub rails, metals, stanchions, cleats etc. because it will pit them. Only apply FSR or On & Off to a gelcoat hull! Allow about 20 minutes for the skirt set up and 1/2 hour for washing the hull.
> 
> *Removing the oxidation:*
> 
> To do it right you must first remove all the oxidation. This will be achieved either by wet sanding, starting with 600 grit, if really bad, and working up to 1000 grit plus. Wet sanding by novices should always be done by hand. Unless you're a seasoned body shop professional do not use a machine to speed up the wet sanding process. While gel coat is very thick & most hulls can be wet sanded & compounded numerous times, compared to Linear Polyurethanes such as AwlGrip or Imron, a novice with an electric or air sander can chew through and ruin the gelcoat quickly if not fully experienced. Doing this by hand, and keeping the paper rinsed and wet, is the key to getting a good result. One trick is to add a little dish detergent to the water bucket as this lubes the paper and helps rinse the gelcoat chalk off when you dip the paper. I like to use a soft damp kitchen sponge as my backing block and it matches the hull contours nicely.
> 
> *Compounding:*
> 
> If the hull oxidation is minimal a good heavy duty rubbing compound, such as 3M Heavy Duty or Presta Gelcoat Compound and a 3M compounding grade wool pad #05711 or Presta black pad can and should be the starting point. You'll know quickly after testing a spot with the compound if you'll need to wet sand. If you need to spend more than 2-3 minutes on a 2X2 area your using the wrong machine, compound, pad or a combination of the three or you need to start at wet sanding. I can not stress enough the importance of using a compounding grade pad with a compound and a polishing grade pad with a polish. While it is fine to use a polish grade pad with a medium compound like Presta Ultra Cutting Creme you don't want to use a heavy duty pad with a polish or you won't get the desired result.
> 
> When compounding do keep in mind that a compound is like liquid wet sand paper. Therefore, you should keep your pad damp at all times. I use a misting bottle filled with water for this but don't over do it. If you are getting lots of small dot "sling" the pad is to wet. If you are a novice I do not advise attempting to use the buffer to "dry buff" or to "buff off" compounds or polishes. Running the pad dry, as in buffing until the compound is off the hull, is something best left for PROFESSIONALS or until you have the confidence and skill to go there. You can very easily damage your hull if you are not experienced at "dry" buffing. I've seen burned and permanently discolored gel coat from novices attempting this. This is part of the reason they put Silicone's in compounds and it's because most people don't understand the concept of how to use a buffer.
> 
> As a beginner your buffer should be considered just that a buffer and not a "remover". Work a 2 foot by 2 foot area first going at a slow speed 600 then slowly up to 1000 for 30-45 seconds then turn the dial up to 2k+ but below 3k and stop before it is dry. Next wipe the residue off while it's still in the "damp haze" mode. Don't let it dry or it will be a bear to remove unless you wet it again.. This will show you how much more you need to do or if you can move onto the next 2X2 area. ALWAYS, ALWAYS keep the pad and machine moving!!!
> 
> Apply compound in a criss-cross not a circle (note the mist bottle of water):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Edging the pad is for pro's or after you get comfortable with the process & machine !!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Right Way - keep it FLAT..*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *After compounding phase only using Presta Ultra Cutting Creme (no sanding was done here 30 year old gelcoat)*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pre-compounding Phase:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The polishing phase:*
> 
> This is perhaps the most important because it gives that deep wet look to the hull even before you wax it. Skipping the very important polishing phase, and using an aggressive compound only, will leave very small, barely visible, scratches or "swirl marks" in the gel coat that will absorb more UV light. It may look very shiny after this step but the sun & UV see the swirls. These micro ridges and valleys or micro scratches, if you will, actually create more exposed surface area, and thus oxidize the hull more rapidly. This is why you should polish the hull as the second phase or third phase depending on your level of oxidation.
> 
> So phase 1 is wet sand (if needed), phase 2 compound, phase three polish.
> 
> Contrary to popular myths & beliefs you should not be dependent on the wax for the shine of your hull. The wax is a protection layer only and a final sealer to keep the elements at bay and to minimize pollution and dirt from binding to the hull. Unfortunately, most DIYer's actually skip the polishing step thinking compounding is polishing. It's not. Once the hull is polished I do a phase called glazing step (overkill for most unless you're totally OCD) and then two coats of Collinite Fleet Wax. Most often one coat will suffice but for a really long lasting finish two coats is best. I normally do three at the waterline because this is where the wax sees the most abuse.
> 
> The same techniques apply to polishing as do compounding.
> 
> *After polishing but before wax:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Glazing Phase (optional):*
> 
> The fourth step, or glazing phase, would be considered over kill by many but this is the step where you literally make the hull surface as smooth as glass removing any traces of "swirl marks". By using products like Meguiars #9 Swirl Remover or Presta Chroma you eliminate micro scratches and slow the oxidizing by creating even less surface area for the sun's UV rays to degrade.
> 
> Don't worry though, if you stop at 3M Finesse It II you're 90% of the way there and this level of polish is plenty good for most boaters and will last a long time if done right and with patience.
> 
> *Understanding Grit Levels:*
> 
> What is grit level? If you were to rate various products on a 1-10 scale of grit (1 being least aggressive & 10 being most) wet sanding at 600 would be a 10 or most aggressive, compounding with a heavy duty compound would be a 6-7, Finesse It a 3-4.5, #9 or Presta Chroma a 1-3 and wax a Zero.
> 
> Using the above scale as a guide you can see why you would not want to jump the compounding phase to a wax. Stopping at the compounding phase will leave swirl marks or micro scratches, which creates more surface area, to absorb UV rays. Stopping at the Finesse It phase will leave considerably less aggressive swirl marks but they will still be there all be it very, very minimally. Going all the way to a glazing phase will leave virtually zero swirls and prolong the time between oxidation's re-appearance. Even deep scratches can be minimized by feathering the edges. The sharp edges of a scratch are what make it highly visible. Rounding off these edges through compounding and polishing greatly minimizes the visibility while still preserving surrounding gelcoat thickness...
> 
> *One Step Products / Liquids:*
> Don't be fooled by the "easy application liquid carnuba waxes" I've yet to find one that lasts and I've tried many of them! Trust me I did this for a living when I was younger and no one wants to wax a mega yacht every three months! I used to work on and detail "shiny boats" (mega yachts) and found Collinite Fleet Wax #885 paste version to be the longest lasting and hardest of the Carnuba's. Practial Sailor, not once, but twice now has backed up my own personal finding crowning Collinite #885 the king of paste waxes. There are others but Collinte is truly a great product.
> 
> One way to test if your wax will pass the test of time is to watch your waterline. If it becomes yellow the wax is dead and gone! With Collinite #885 you can get 6-8 full months without any yellowing at the waterline. No other wax I've tried has even come close.
> 
> There are literally hundreds of waxes out there and any one of them is better than none. I only recommend the above waxes because I have used them and found them to be very durable. I have also used many of the "marine" waxes including some of the "teflon" based products, but again, none worked as well as the old-school paste Carnuba's.
> 
> * More Process Tips:*
> When buffing & waxing a boat, out of the water, a good trick is to cover the bottom paint with at least 2" blue tape so you don't accidentally buff and wax the bottom paint. It's important to tape neatly so you get wax as close to the bottom paint as you can without actually getting it on the bottom paint. I usually do a 3/4-inch width tape followed by a 2-inch width giving me plenty of tape to save my buffing pads. Fouling of your buffing pad, with bottom paint, is the end of that pad until you can wash it in a commercial washing machine. To keep "sling", what happens when you use a rotary buffer, and it throws white dots of compound up onto your deck, off the decks, I bring old card board boxes to the boat yard. Lay them on the deck directly above the area you're working protruding about 12" over the edge of the deck. The cardboard overhang will catch any "sling" on the way up and it will save you huge amounts of time cleaning white dots off the surface of your deck!
> 
> Blue Tape:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Tips for keeping it clean:*
> 
> *1)* With two coats of a paste Carnuba on the hull I only wash the boat with IMAR boat wash or Awlwash the soap made to wash Awlgrip. These products are great and also safe, and IMAR is also approved & safe for washing Strataglass dodger windows. The reason I use IMAR Boat Wash is because it's the only product I've found that cleans well but does not prematurely break down the wax. With IMAR I'm still beading after 7-8 months. Avoid the use of any soap with a built in wax, or one that's a heavy detergent based product and by all means do not use Joy, Palmolive or dish washing detergents as they eat waxes for lunch. You can order IMAR products from Defender or directly from the IMAR web site although Defender is cheaper. Using this and a very soft car wash brush on a stick works well and does not ruin your wax job.
> 
> *Tips for applying the wax:*
> 
> *3)* Do I apply the wax by hand? Yes! Please don't apply or remove the wax phase with the buffer. I use the 4-inch round Meguiars foam applicators you can buy at an auto parts store and a spray/mist bottle of water, like you use for ironing. The spray bottle is the secret trick for applying a true Carnuba wax. Simply mist the hull and liberally apply the wax. Wait for it to haze over to about 80-90% of dry and buff by hand with a Micro Fiber rag. Avoid terry cloth as microfibers work many times better. Once you use a Micro Fiber detailing cloth for waxing you'll wonder how you ever survived without one. The spray of water helps it attach and buff out to a harder, shinier easier to wipe off finish. It's sort of like when you get your shoes polished and the guy hits them with a mist bottle and then buffs the shine up. This trick does not work with most of the polymer/Carnuba blends like the 3M paste but it's like gold with the Collinite Carnuba..
> 
> Another trick is not to wax a large area! I'll do a two to three foot wide swath from toe rail to waterline marking where your are waxing at the toe rail with a piece of blue tape. Also leave a little residue on the leading edge so you'll know exactly where to start. You'll wipe this leading edge when finished with the next swath leaving another leading edge to go off of. It moves along much faster than it sounds.
> 
> Over the years I have experimented at length with using my buffer to remove the wax but I find the frictional heat is bad for it and it does not shine as well or last as long as a good hand application and hand wipe. Buffing it off by hand gives it a harder shell because it's cooler and does not re-melt the curing wax with the friction of a buffer. On my 36 footer I use only four Micro's where it used to take about a dozen terry cloth rags. I buy my Micro Fiber rags at Sam's Club or Wal*Mart. I used to buy them from Griot's Garage when they were the only ones who had them and they were HUGE money! Try and find the best quality Micro*Fiber you can it will make a difference. Sometimes the quality of the Sam's Club Micro's is poor so I go to Wal*Mart or an auto-parts store.
> 
> On concourse quality show cars pure carnuba wax is applied with bare, clean fingers & a mist of water and then removed with microfiber rags. This is how I waxed cars growing up. Bare fingers on a 36 footer is far to time consuming but I have actually done it..
> 
> * Tips for decks:*
> 
> *4)* I personally compound and buff the smooth but generally not the non-skid. I don't wax the decks with anything but Woody Wax but I don't find that it actually protects all that much so it may be a wasted step.
> 
> One insider secret is that less distortion in the reflection shows a very good polish/glaze with virtually no swirl marks. If the items in a reflection, such as a ladder, seems distorted the polishing is not up to par. You can also hold a ruler at 90 degrees to the surface and see how far you can read it. The further you can read the numbers the smoother the surface. Here I used my watch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Info on pads, compounds and rags:*
> 
> As for maintaining the wool buffing pads I wash them alone on COLD with Woolite in a home front load washing machine. Sometimes it may take two cycles to get them clean. Please do not dry them in a dryer and don't wash them on hot. They are wool and a hot wash or dry will literally change the pad grade. A polish grade pad can become a compound pad fairly quickly so wash cold then air dry. I rarely have to clean a pad, during a buffing project, unless I'm doing a boat that is badly oxidized. Use slow speeds and light pressure to prevent compound burning. You can also use a mist bottle of water, very sparingly, to give a little moisture to the hull and lube the pad. This however will create more sling so you're best to go slow and keep the compound wetter. The secret is to keep the pad "damp" if it dries, it burns, and you'll need a "spur wheel" or spigot wash to field clean it. Spurs are available at an autobody supply shop or auto parts store but I really, really dislike them and find there is not much need for one at all.
> 
> A trick I use for a "field clean" of the pads is to remove the pad from the buffer and rinse it under a boatyard spigot scrubbing it with my fingers until it's clean or in a 5 gallon bucket filled about 1/3 with fresh clean water. I then re-install the pad on the buffer and spin it on the buffers highest speed inside a 5-gallon bucket to catch the sling. Spin it until no more water spins off on the inside of the bucket. Once done with that use a towel to get it as close to dry as possible. This is the method I use as I feel it's much more thorough than a spur and does not make your pad black from metallic residue. With water based compounds a "field clean" is very easy!!
> 
> *Field Clean - Wash*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Field Clean - Spin Dry:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Cautions On Cheap Products & Pad Care*
> 
> A word of caution about "cheap" compounds and polishes that may contain silicone or wax or oils. These silicones or oils will not easily wash out or come, clean of the pads and will eventually ruin them. Use water based 3M , Presta Products or similar but carefully read the labels to make sure it says, "does not contain silicone". If a product says "paintable" or "body shop safe" it most likely does not contain silicone.
> 
> As for the microfiber rags do not use any sort of fabric softener it will ruin the rags. You can wash them on warm or hot though...
> 
> * Compound / Polish products I use:*
> 
> *My favorites:*
> 
> *Presta Products - Gelcoat Compound* = Heavy compound but finishes with a deep shine
> * Presta Products - Ultra Cutting Creme* = Starts medium/heavy but diminishes & finishes comparable to Finesse It II
> *Presta Products - Chroma* = Glaze
> 
> If your boat is not to badly oxidized Ultra Cutting Creme with a 3M #05713 pad can get you there in just one step plus the wax..! This is my absolute favorite product for compounding / polishing.
> 
> *Others:*
> 
> 3M Marine Super Rubbing Compound
> 3M Finesse It - Polish
> Meguiars #9 Swirl Remover - Fine polish that makes a great gelcoat glaze
> 
> *Wax I use:*
> 
> Collinite #885 Fleet Wax - Paste Version (Contains less than 2% silicone most of it's competitors contain 30% or more silicone)
> 
> I cut my teeth on concourse quality cars like this. My father would have been pretty un-happy with me if I toasted a 25-30k paint job.. Boats are easy compared to cars like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> This photo was sent to me by forum member RBone who read this and previously had little experience. YES, it CAN be done..


As a professional car detailer,and rebuilding an old FD.Thankyou for the materials guide.Gel coat is a lot harder than auto paint.I often wondered if there was some i could use.


----------



## RedTide

*Rags*

Just read your beautiful explanation, and am gearing up to use this process. As a beginner, I wanted to know when the rags are used. Are you saying to remove the compound, polish, and wax with the microfiber rags or just the wax? If so, how do you remove compound or wax before proceeding to next step? Thanks so much.


----------



## CarpeAquam

Incredibly helpful article! Thank you!


----------



## HELLICONIA54

RedTide said:


> Just read your beautiful explanation, and am gearing up to use this process. As a beginner, I wanted to know when the rags are used. Are you saying to remove the compound, polish, and wax with the microfiber rags or just the wax? If so, how do you remove compound or wax before proceeding to next step? Thanks so much.


As with car detailing,The cutting compound is usually wa=ter based.When you cutthe paint,the cutters dry to a powder.the more you work it the finer it cuts and the finer the dust generated(compound)I just wipe it of with rag,or just wash it.Then,when dry i polish/wax.Cutting compound is like self regulation sandpaper.In stead of going for progressively finer sandpaper the cutters breaks down with the friction becoming finer.Ends looking/feeling like calc.Mind you.if you want mirror finish with no swirls(from buff) use a swirl remover,its just a very fine grade compound(usually in liquid form.) again just wipe off.


----------



## RedTide

*Removing Compound/Polish*

Thanks for the reply. I'm hoping to see a reply from Mainsail also as I am still not completely clear on this subject. Does the compound need to be removed with a microfiber rag before polishing or does it basically dissipate? Does the polish stay on as is (leaving a polished surface) or does it have to be removed/buffed with a rag? I saw your comment about swirls.
Thanks. I know that this may sound like crazy questions, but I have never done this process.


----------



## HELLICONIA54

The compound(cutters) ends up like talc,(light white and dry)You can wash iT off. i just dry rag it.Its not that important.Once you have most of it off,you them apply polish of choice,(polymer,wax etc)apply wax as you would on car then wipe it off with a clean soft cloth,Toweling or microfibre.The only real difference between doing a boat and car is that gelcoat is a lot harder than auto paint.Some people like to use a lambswool pad on slow buff to remove polish and buff it to full shine.The hardest part is in the compounding.


----------



## Mlshawaii

This article is extremely informative....thank you! 

Is it necessary to use special pads for compounding and polishing if I am doing these tasks by hand? I will use a buffer for the hull, but I'm currently doing the decks by hand. Thanks in advance.


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## HELLICONIA54

Cutting pads come in many different grades.Generally,lambs wool is the coursest(?)Then there are different degrees in foam.I'd stick to a wool pad for a boat.Cutting by hand? argh! been there,done that.NO MORE! very hard work.In tight places on deck ,,,yeah i'd have to go by hand,My disc is 7" diametre,you can get 4".Apply compounding cream to hull."smear" with pad.Work a small area at the time,work it till you get a good shine and cutters turn to fine powder.move on to new area.keep going till all hull finished. wipe off with a clean rag.Apply polish of choice.Its not rocket science.Lot easier than a car.


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## Mlshawaii

Helliconia54,

Thank you for the reply. The vast majority of our decks (Beneteau 42CC) are non-skid. I'm hoping the work on the smooth gelcoat portion won't be too hard. We will definitely use a buffer on the hull when we get to that.

Just started the re-conditioning process today. We only did one small section of non-skid, but it turned out great! Rinsed, boat soap, FSR, Woody Wax, dried.....I still can't believe how white it is. Here in Hawaii, red dirt is our constant battle.

I'll get some wool pads for the rubbing compound for the smooth parts. Thank you for the advice.


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## frjeff

*Great Post - but, Questions*

Thanks for such a fine post.

Questions:

I have a small (15') Montgomery in very good shape (no chalking, etc.), so I intend to ramp up to do this exercise beginning with the 3M Finesse-It step, followed by 2 Collinite #885 wax coats.

However, I only own an old B&D #9531 polisher. It has only two speeds (2100 & 6600). I have also heard horror stories of novices (that's me!) burning their finish with the rotary polishers (like the Makita).

So, would a random-orbital unit work for a novice like me? I love everything I see on the Makita 9227C, but the price and my fears give me pause.

Any suggestions, recommendations are highly welcomed and appreciated.

*Fr. Jeff+*


----------



## Siamese

As a novice, I followed MS's instructions to the letter. Bought an appropriate DeWalt grinder/polisher, so I'd have the proper speed. Prior to doing a 31 foot boat that badly needed it, ALL my previous attempts at bringing a shine to any of my old boats failed miserably. 

I started with wet sanding, followed by 3m compound, followed by Finesse It. Ended up with topsides that LOOKED LIKE NEW. And I'd never used anything but a random orbital polisher before. I had no problems using a proper grinder polisher. 

Bottom line: Don't be cuttin' corners. You wanna get done and wonder why it doesn't look right? 

By the way, I don't envy you polishing your faux-lapstrake topsides, but at least you're only dealing with 15 feet. Another bonus for you is that everything you need to polish can be done with you standing on terra firma. A 31 with a fixed keel puts you up high on a big stepladder. All in all, your job will be a piece of cake. p.s......I wonder if you'd be better off using 4" pads on your lapstrake planks. Seems like much of a 7" would be just slinging your expensive compound into the air.


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## frjeff

*Thanks - Good Advice*

I believe you are right. I'll bite the bullet and get myself a new Makita or DeWalt and have no excuses.
I was giving thought to the lapstrake and I like the idea of the smaller wheel/pads.

Yup, we'll do the whole thing from the floor while she's on the trailer. No bottom paint either, so I'll be laying on my back for most of that part!

My gratitude!


----------



## frjeff

*Another Question*

Siamese or any other viewer,

With my hull having the faux 4" lapstrake moulded in the fiberglass, I will only be able to run the Makita with horizontal movements. Vertical pattern would be across the lapstrake. I will also have to use smaller pads (4" +/-).

Will this work, or will it leave unsightly marks by only moving back and forth horizontally?

Thanks......


----------



## Siamese

I've never done a lapstraker, but I'm not seeing a problem. If there was to be any unevenness, I'd think it might occur at some of the edges of your "planks", but that's not to say I'd anticipate any problems. I'm thinkin' you're going to have one shiny boat. 

Start doing a few pushups now :laugher if you're going to be working on your back. Standing on a stepladder and holding up a big grinder in front of you for hours is tiring. Holding it straight up is bound to be even more fun. I could see myself skimping a little below the waterline....heck, the fish don't care. 

If you could flip the boat....woo hoo.

Hey....I just reread your post, and noticed that you're starting with the Finesse-it. If your gel coat is currently close to fresh out of the mold shiny, that's a good way to go. If it's getting a little dull and oxidized, definitely do the compounding. I used the 3M on mine, and it was fine, but I think next time I'm going with the Presta. I understand that you're concerned about burning it. Pity if that concern kept you from getting gloss after a lot of work. You could always practice on the keel.


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## frjeff

*First Step*

My "new" boat is 30 years old, but it was stored in a TX polebarn for 16 years. So, not fresh from the mold, but very, very good!

But I have decided to compound. Will use all Presta products except wax. That will be the Collinite #885.

Will start push ups and other arm exercises tomorrow. 

Jeff


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## HELLICONIA54

I have been detailing cars now for over 18 yrs.A good half of that with a twin speed sander/polisher (Ryobi) It is not the tool you use but how you use it.I use the slowest of the two speeds.Practice on something first.It takes a lot of work to burn thru.If you keep the buff moving,do not let it stay too long in one spot ,you will have no problem.If you hold pad flat to surface,it may jump around a little,due to friction.Lift one edge a little.By the way using the buff and cutters is a good way to remove scratches from perspex windows too.


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## Siamese

30 years old with 16 in storage....yup, you wanna compound it. You hear a lot of concern with regard to compounding away the gelcoat from compounding too often. Every 30 years is probably not a problem! 6, 8, 10 years down the road maybe you'll do it again, or just Finesse above the waterline in a few years. 

Let us know how it goes.


----------



## frjeff

*New Buffer/Polisher*

Just bought the Makita 9227C.

Now, safe up some buck$$ for backer plates, pads, Presta Strata Ultra Cutting Cream Light, Presta Chroma and Collinite #885 and the work shall begin.

Bringing the boat home to MI from NC on the 25th. She should look good by the first launch!


----------



## Maine Sail

frjeff said:


> Just bought the Makita 9227C.
> 
> Now, safe up some buck$$ for backer plates, pads, Presta Strata Ultra Cutting Cream Light, Presta Chroma and Collinite #885 and the work shall begin.
> 
> Bringing the boat home to MI from NC on the 25th. She should look good by the first launch!


GO SLOW with lapstrake.. The "over hangs" and "edges" can create hot spots on the pad edges... Can easily be done but requires more patience...


----------



## frjeff

*Going Slow!*



Maine Sail said:


> GO SLOW with lapstrake.. The "over hangs" and "edges" can create hot spots on the pad edges... Can easily be done but requires more patience...


_Maine Sail_

Thanks for the great tip!

I am going to go very slow as I have never had a "real" buffer polisher in my hands before and I sure do not want to mess up an already pretty boat/hull.

When you say "slow", I presume you are speaking primarily about the RPM's, correct? I'll likely practice a bit on my old pick up truck tail gate and the keel........


----------



## Maine Sail

frjeff said:


> _Maine Sail_
> 
> Thanks for the great tip!
> 
> I am going to go very slow as I have never had a "real" buffer polisher in my hands before and I sure do not want to mess up an already pretty boat/hull.
> 
> When you say "slow", I presume you are speaking primarily about the RPM's, correct? I'll likely practice a bit on my old pick up truck tail gate and the keel........


Yes RPM.. You want to watch the over hang temps when buffing the strake below it. The edge of the pad can create hot spots if going at to fast an RPM..


----------



## frjeff

*Slow and Easy, and......*



Maine Sail said:


> Yes RPM.. You want to watch the over hang temps when buffing the strake below it. The edge of the pad can create hot spots if going at to fast an RPM..


Thanks, that's what I thought you meant.

Per another tipster here, I will also likely use smaller backing plate and pads on the lapstrake areas. There are 2 3/4" plates that use 4" pads and a 3 3/4" plate that uses 4" or 5" pads from Lake Country. The tipster thought that the smaller pads would have less throw. Either of these will work on the Makita (per AutoGeek.net).

My only concern is that my motion will be nearly all horizontal (not much room on the lapstrake to do any vertical motion).

Thoughts?

And, my gratitude again!


----------



## Siamese

Yeah, you're restricted to horizontal motion. There's simply no way around that. But...we're talking about a tool that travels in a circle, so in effect, a given square inch is being hit from a lot of different directions. As opposed to the motion of belt sander which travels in a straight line. 

Also, you're not going at it with 80 grit. The compound is going to leave a shiny surface. It's gonna work.


----------



## Matthew Coggins

* Turtle Wax rubbing compound is an excellent good, better alternatives always exist everywhere.
* It Can be used to "rub out" the car with lots of effort.
* One will not need to go to this level and type of effort.
* Starting with the use of clay bar and recommended paste wax products from other companies will go far to making one a happy car owner, with far less efforts and better end results!


----------



## maine89

I have some gouges to fix in my hull but I also have just bought all the supplies mentioned in your list.

Is it a better idea to do the compounding on the entire hull before doing my fixes so I can see the true color I want to match with gel coat? Then after the repair re-compound the surrounding area and then proceed with polishing and waxing everything?


----------



## frjeff

*Which First?*

All of my teak is stripped and sanded - ready for Cetol Natural Teak.

My hull and deck is also ready for the full blown compound/polish/wax process outlined here. All Presta and Collinite on hand.

Which should I do first for best results - teak finish or hull and deck???


----------



## frjeff

*Unbelievable!!*

I'm geeked!

Just finished Step #1 : Makita 9227C with Presta Ultra Cutting Cream Light compounding the hull.

This stuff and result is better than I even thought after reading this great post.

My hull just glistens!! Can't believe the difference (and this thing was not oxidized at all). I can hardly wait (well, when arms recover) to do the Presta Swirl Remover, Presta Chroma 1500 Polish and the Collinte wax.

This old Monty 15 gal (#176) is going to look like new!!


----------



## maine89

Here is what I came up with on a 1975 oday with an unknown history on topside maintenance.

I'm quite pleased with the results but looking back at MaineSail's photos they don't really compare  Very shiney when shot form the back and at an angle. Not too much straight on like the watch test. My boat is certainly older but I think I didn't compound quite enough. I pretty much put on what I thought to be reasonable amount of compound (similar to the photo MaineSail provided on the buffing pad) and buffed until it started to go away, then I cleaned up that area and moved on. It is very likely I should have been gauging something and deciding if an area was done before moving on, but didn't really know what I was looking for.

Photo is attached.

I used the buffer and all of the Presta products recommended by MaineSail, thanks! 

Before:









After:


----------



## oomfh

I had a similar experience with a 1989 boat - first pass was a big improvement but still didn't meet expectations.

Went to auto body supply store (not Advance, not AutoZone) and purchased 1200 and 1500 grit wet sandpaper. After sanding, started over with compound, then polish, then glaze, then two coats of Collinite paste (and you can definitely see the difference between wax coat #1 and #2.)

Are you using a different grade pad for each product? That also makes a noticeable difference.

Maybe focus on a 3' section until you achieve desired results.

Be patient and perstistent.

Good luck!


----------



## frjeff

I'm thrilled with what I have on the Monty with just the first coat of Collinite on the hull. 
I am going to wait on coat two until I have the deck and cabin compounded, polished, glazed and one coat of Collinite thereupon. Then I'll do the entire boat with Collinite coat two. 
I did wet sand a few spots which had some scratches and gouges from PO rafting incident. Not there anymore!


----------



## paperbird

very satisfied user of this process. Started with 1000 grit wetsanding then followed the steps as outlined. Shoulders will never be the same! Very helpful to have great friends willing to co-labor. 

As a benchmark, our 42' took about 6 weekends a few evenings, probably 50 manhours total time.

now it's on to the topsides....


----------



## maine89

oomfh said:


> I had a similar experience with a 1989 boat - first pass was a big improvement but still didn't meet expectations.
> 
> Went to auto body supply store (not Advance, not AutoZone) and purchased 1200 and 1500 grit wet sandpaper. After sanding, started over with compound, then polish, then glaze, then two coats of Collinite paste (and you can definitely see the difference between wax coat #1 and #2.)
> 
> Are you using a different grade pad for each product? That also makes a noticeable difference.
> 
> Maybe focus on a 3' section until you achieve desired results.
> 
> Be patient and perstistent.
> 
> Good luck!


I did wet sand the blue stripe which had a lot more oxidation. I hit with some 600 then 800, 1000, 2000 wet. Really helped but the white is harder to work with because the oxidation wasn't as easy to spot.

With the compounding I didn't really know what I was looking for in terms of completeness. I guess if I was paying more attention to the photos I would have compounded more heavily until I had more of a mirror shine like MaineSail, but I kept thinking the mirror would come in later steps (which it mostly did).

I was just really worried that I wasn't noticing how much it was buffing away and suddenly I'd have a 2' hole in the gel coat.


----------



## Maine Sail

oomfh said:


> I had a similar experience with a 1989 boat - first pass was a big improvement but still didn't meet expectations.
> 
> Went to auto body supply store (not Advance, not AutoZone) and purchased 1200 and 1500 grit wet sandpaper. After sanding, started over with compound, then polish, then glaze, then two coats of Collinite paste (and you can definitely see the difference between wax coat #1 and #2.)
> 
> Are you using a different grade pad for each product? That also makes a noticeable difference.
> 
> Maybe focus on a 3' section until you achieve desired results.
> 
> Be patient and perstistent.
> 
> Good luck!


Now that is why I take the time to write these how to articles! Nice job..

P.S. can I possibly use that photo to show what can be done?


----------



## BreakAwayFL

Fantastic thread, I'll be using it as my instruction guide! Thank you!


----------



## Tafa

MaineSail, thank you very much for this great information. Great work, clean and simple explanations, images&#8230; even I can understand how to make it  its publishing quality material&#8230; Thanks again.

Now&#8230;&#8230;. Here's what I want to give a dazzling shine 









She's a 1986 Nash 26 and hasn't been looked after since 2010. I have no idea how severe the oxidation is. And I also want to repaint the stripes with another color. (Dark blue) I have no idea if the stripes are awlgrip or something else.

Here's the sequence which I'm thinking to follow, based on MaineSail's suggestions,

1- Clean the hull with FSR or similar
2- Wet sand with 1000 grit
3- Apply rubbing compound
4- Re-paint the stripes (is sanding required after applying rubbing compound?)
5- Finesse It or similar
6- Wax
7- Apply signs (stickies)
8- Paint bottom

My questions are;
- Does the above sequence seem correct? If not what you would recommend?
- From this horrible picture, can you tell how severe is the oxidation (Hopefully I can post some close up pics by Monday)
- Is sanding required after applying rubbing compound? (for re-painting stripes)
- How can I figure out what kind of material the stripes painted with?
- Would that be OK If I take loooong breaks after completing each step (breaks up to one week). (Boat stays 80 Km away from my place and I can visit her max 2-3 times a week) In other words does it get oxidized again if I leave it for a week after I sand it? 
- Is it ok to put sticky signs after waxing? If not when it should be done?
- What's the best way/material to remove previously painted (with enamel I guess) signs on the hull?

Many thanks in advance for your help,

Tafa


----------



## maine89

Tafa said:


> Here's the sequence which I'm thinking to follow, based on MaineSail's suggestions,
> 
> 1- Clean the hull with FSR or similar
> 2- Wet sand with 1000 grit
> 3- Apply rubbing compound
> 4- Re-paint the stripes (is sanding required after applying rubbing compound?)
> 5- Finesse It or similar
> 6- Wax
> 7- Apply signs (stickies)
> 8- Paint bottom
> 
> My questions are;
> - Does the above sequence seem correct? If not what you would recommend?
> - From this horrible picture, can you tell how severe is the oxidation (Hopefully I can post some close up pics by Monday)
> - Is sanding required after applying rubbing compound? (for re-painting stripes)
> - How can I figure out what kind of material the stripes painted with?
> - Would that be OK If I take loooong breaks after completing each step (breaks up to one week). (Boat stays 80 Km away from my place and I can visit her max 2-3 times a week) In other words does it get oxidized again if I leave it for a week after I sand it?
> - Is it ok to put sticky signs after waxing? If not when it should be done?
> - What's the best way/material to remove previously painted (with enamel I guess) signs on the hull?
> 
> Many thanks in advance for your help,
> 
> Tafa


Take my advice with a grain of salt because I knew nothing before starting with MaineSail's guide.

1. I'm not sure about you needing FSR. I paid $19 for a small bottle of On & Off from WM and it was a total waste. I'd put in on the hull as directed, wait 60 seconds, then rinse it off, and I'd have dirt left over that could be wiped with a finger. If I then used a towel to wipe it, it would be clean, but the towel functioned the same way without the expensive On & Off. I think that stuff is probably intended for big rust stains etc. that would resist other cleaners. What I ended up doing was just using some Simple Green and a rag to clean the hull before starting with the compounding.

4. I'm not sure how things change when you involve painting. I was wanting to change the colors of my stripes too but I decided against the added complication.

6 & 7. I think it would make more sense to apply the decal and then wax. That way the vinyl is sticking to the clean hull instead of a temporary surfacing.


----------



## arf145

I had similar thoughts about the On & Off, Maine89. Next time, I'll probably go Simple Green or the like.

But I have to say, this is the first year I followed MaineSail's directions close to 100%--Makita polisher, Presta products, recommend 3m pads, microfiber cloths, Fleetwax--and I was very pleased with the results on my 25-yr-old Pearson. I hope to not have to compound next time, and just go with the Presta Cutting Creme. Some of my observations:

* Working that Makita while standing on a ladder is hard! I had to laugh at MS's advice to keep the pad moving. How could I not!? The thing owned me until I got better at it. Exhausting. I found that the moistness of the compound was crucial to making sure the Makita didn't fling me aside like a pesky afterthought.

* Love those Presta products! Being water soluble means water clean up. No prob getting the wool pads clean.

* Oddly enough, I got my best results with the compound by polishing it until it was mostly gone. I know this is contra MS's instructions, but it seemed to work. I started doing this to save my arms from rubbing off the compound (hoping to live to fight another day), but then saw a better finish. 

* Speed does matter. For a while I wasn't ramping up the speed as directed and wasn't getting the results. It was a breezy dry day and my stuff was just drying so fast, I couldn't get up to speed before it was too late. Once I got the pad damp enough with the sprayer--close to the point of flinging (and occasionally over it!)--I finally finished up with a high enough speed to get it smooth.

* The Fleetwax paste went on, and more importantly, off, easier than their liquid I thought. Maybe this was because the surface was smoother this time?

Anyway, thanks for the awesome tutorial, MaineSail!

Tom


----------



## maine89

arf145 said:


> I had similar thoughts about the On & Off, Maine89. Next time, I'll probably go Simple Green or the like.
> 
> But I have to say, this is the first year I followed MaineSail's directions close to 100%--Makita polisher, Presta products, recommend 3m pads, microfiber cloths, Fleetwax--and I was very pleased with the results on my 25-yr-old Pearson. I hope to not have to compound next time, and just go with the Presta Cutting Creme. Some of my observations:
> 
> * Working that Makita while standing on a ladder is hard! I had to laugh at MS's advice to keep the pad moving. How could I not!? The thing owned me until I got better at it. Exhausting. I found that the moistness of the compound was crucial to making sure the Makita didn't fling me aside like a pesky afterthought.
> 
> * Love those Presta products! Being water soluble means water clean up. No prob getting the wool pads clean.
> 
> * Oddly enough, I got my best results with the compound by polishing it until it was mostly gone. I know this is contra MS's instructions, but it seemed to work. I started doing this to save my arms from rubbing off the compound (hoping to live to fight another day), but then saw a better finish.
> 
> * Speed does matter. For a while I wasn't ramping up the speed as directed and wasn't getting the results. It was a breezy dry day and my stuff was just drying so fast, I couldn't get up to speed before it was too late. Once I got the pad damp enough with the sprayer--close to the point of flinging (and occasionally over it!)--I finally finished up with a high enough speed to get it smooth.
> 
> * The Fleetwax paste went on, and more importantly, off, easier than their liquid I thought. Maybe this was because the surface was smoother this time?
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the awesome tutorial, MaineSail!
> 
> Tom


I too went with the exact model of everything he suggested just so I would be the only variable (which is variable enough trust me...)

Yes the buffer was quite formidable. I know he said to keep it flat but I found keeping it at a slight angle gave me a lot more control.

I too worked the material until it was mostly gone, but that is because I wasn't sure when I was done. I think at the time my mind figured if the compound, creme or polish was mostly gone, it must have done what it needed to do. But really I should have given it a closer look.

I'm really not sure if I attained 30% or 70% of the results of someone who knew what they were doing, but it was shinier than when I started, that is for certain  And I didn't eat through all the gel coat, which was a concern keeping me from being too aggressive with the compounding. I suppose you can be (and probably should be) more aggressive with the creme and polish since you can't really do much damage at the higher grit level but even on a 27 foot boat I was fighting the clock. It's a 140 mile round-trip to get to the boat and the yard will lock me in at 5pm so I was rushing on the second day (hour 8-16) to get done.

PS: Has anyone used the Mikita polisher/sander for sanding? How does it compare to orbital or random orbital sanders? I'm needing a sander and hoping I can use this $180 investment as one as well, instead of another $80 for a modest sander.


----------



## Maine Sail

maine89 said:


> Take my advice with a grain of salt because I knew nothing before starting with MaineSail's guide.
> 
> *1. I'm not sure about you needing FSR. I paid $19 for a small bottle of On & Off from WM and it was a total waste. I'd put in on the hull as directed, wait 60 seconds, then rinse it off, and I'd have dirt left over that could be wiped with a finger. *


Guys the ACID is ONLY FOR YELLOWING OR TANNIN STAINING. It is NOT for general cleaning...

If your boat does not have yellowing or tanning stains then you can SKIP this step...

It is to do this only:


----------



## svalvasori

I'm lining up to buy exactly what specified and will give it a go! Admittedly on a powerboat...
My question is this, I will be replacing the boat name and license numbers this year. My thought it I should remove them before I compound, but I don't know when I should put the new ones on? I may not even have the new ones until after I wax but I have a feeling that putting stickers on wax is not a good idea.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Steve.


----------



## paperbird

My sequence was:

remove old letters
goo gone to remove any traces of old adhesive
wet sand per procedure
repeat goo gone when you find trace amounts of old adhesive
continue with procedure through to polishing step
apply new letters
wax

Very satisfied with the results. Only slightest trace of old letters visible at certain angles. I suspect that's due to the old letters being there for a lot of years and the uneven weathering of the gelcoat underneath.


----------



## maine89

svalvasori said:


> I'm lining up to buy exactly what specified and will give it a go! Admittedly on a powerboat...
> My question is this, I will be replacing the boat name and license numbers this year. My thought it I should remove them before I compound, but I don't know when I should put the new ones on? I may not even have the new ones until after I wax but I have a feeling that putting stickers on wax is not a good idea.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks,
> Steve.


You should remove them. The gelcoat under the vinyl will not match the rest and compounding is a good way to help blend it a little. If you leave the decals on you will likely need to hit that area again.

If you need to put the vinyl on after a waxing you can use acetone, denatured alcohol, xylol etc to get it off and cleaned. Some people prefer certain types but those are common.


----------



## svalvasori

Alright, almost everything is on order, including gallon sized Presta product. Really not that bad, in for ~$550 as I was starting from absolutely nothing. I figure I'll have enough product for at least 2 years if not more so price per year isn't bad.

Have a few questions:
What do I do with windows, rub rail, etc? I'm thinking you tape over everything that isn't FG? I would think you don't want to sand those parts.

How do people do small areas, like in the cockpit? I am thinking just to apply with a hand applicator, but I'm not sure if you can do this with a compound or not? Perhaps I don't need to do the cockpit since it's usually covered, I'll have to see what it looks like.

How do you clean/shine the non-skid sections?

My boat isn't chalky (nothing comes off on my hands), it's white and a tiny bit shiney but nothing like a deep shine. I'm thinking to start with the Gel Coat Compound to make sure I've got a good base. Is it possible that I can do harm starting with this compound if I don't need to? Here is what the hull looks like now:


----------



## davidpm

I've got my Makita on order.


----------



## frjeff

Do some push ups for a few weeks first!


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

Went through the whole thing (FSR, compound, polish, wash), followed instructions to the letter. I bought the Makita and all the recommended pads and products (all 3M). Set me back close to 300.- Was it worth it?

ABSOLUTELY!

A BIG thanks to Mainesail! I can truly say that my boat hasn't looked this good for as long as I own it (>10 years). This is a 1976 32' Columbia. Took about 2 whole days and I slept very well after each of them. Excellent upper-body exercise!

A question: As I said, I followed all instructions to the letter. However, when I was doing the waxing, I wondered whether microfiber rags are really the best for this, rather than terrycloth. I totally see that microfibers are better for compounding and polishing since the goal is to remove the product. However, for waxing the primary goal is to spread the wax finely (and, secondarily, remove excess). Wouldn't terry cloth even better for this? 

I am now hunting for a smaller pad. I read through the thread and some were recommended but after purchasing the Makita, I sure don't want to buy another tool (like a Metabo angle polisher). So I am just looking for a 3" or 4" pad for smaller areas on the deck that will fit on either the Makita (preferably) or, if necessary, on a power drill or my Porter Cable random orbit sander. If anyone has a suggestion, lemme know.

A note. I was amazed at the number of microfiber rags I needed for compounding. Close to 20, I guess. A lot less in the other stages, maybe a half dozen for polishing and 3 for waxing. I also used nearly a bottle of compound (what are they, a pint maybe?) and perhaps 1/4 of the Finesse-It bottle (which is a lot bigger, maybe a half gallon?). 

Anyway, again thanks to MaineSail. You rock!


----------



## preservedkillick

Just go my Makita 9227CX3 today. Having fun with this:



















Like Captain Aubry, my old boat is battle scarred, but at least she's white and shiny!

Thanks MaineSail! 
PK


----------



## magken

Question from a new member. The marina put our 27' sailboat into the water before we could clean and wax the hull. What kinds of problems can we expect (aside from needing another marina!)


----------



## Tim R.

magken said:


> Question from a new member. The marina put our 27' sailboat into the water before we could clean and wax the hull. What kinds of problems can we expect (aside from needing another marina!)


A dirty boat. Why can't you clean and wax it in the water?


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## jppp

Yes thanks MaineSail. We bought 2 of the recommended Makita buffers, Also had to do the wet sand step. This is after the compounding only.

Jon Pratt's Photos | Facebook
We also hired a Soda Blaster. I arrived as his crew was shoveling bags and bags of soda and bottom paint off the tarps. He mentioned 400 lbs of soda. 30 years of the stuff.


----------



## davidpm

In the current issue of soundings Mike Borrelli on page 100 says:
"You can bring back the gloss finish by wet sanding, buffing and polishing, but this is not a long-term solution. the result is short-lived and the fading often comes back within a year."

He may have been referring only to darker-colored gel-coats it was not clear.

This does not make sense to me. Once it was protected again I would think it would say good for a long time.


----------



## TakeFive

davidpm said:


> In the current issue of soundings Mike Borrelli on page 100 says:
> "You can bring back the gloss finish by wet sanding, buffing and polishing, but this is not a long-term solution. the result is short-lived and the fading often comes back within a year."
> 
> He may have been referring only to darker-colored gel-coats it was not clear.
> 
> This does not make sense to me. Once it was protected again I would think it would say good for a long time.


What does he propose as the long-term solution? Is it an advertiser's product?

I agree that it does not make sense. I would think that once you've restored the original finish by removing the oxide, re-establishing a factory-smooth finish, and protecting with wax, it should last about as long as the original finish lasted.


----------



## davidpm

RhythmDoctor said:


> What does he propose as the long-term solution? Is it an advertiser's product?
> 
> I agree that it does not make sense. I would think that once you've restored the original finish by removing the oxide, re-establishing a factory-smooth finish, and protecting with wax, it should last about as long as the original finish lasted.


The next sentence says:
"The long term solution is painting the hull. The process is more expensive but but t will ensure gloss retention for a many as 10 years."

Actually he runs a fiberglass restoration shop.
But still many if not most articles are at least factual.

I'm going to send him an email and see what happens.


----------



## Maine Sail

davidpm said:


> The next sentence says:
> *"The long term solution is painting the hull. The process is more expensive but but t will ensure gloss retention for a many as 10 years."
> *


As many as 10 years? I have seen well cared for Imron go well beyond 10 years and well maintained gelcoat last into the 40's.

This is my own boat painted with AwlCraft 2000 taken yesterday at year 7. I would argue that even at year 7 her gloss and shine is better than a 90% of the freshly painted boats out there. A well cared for gelcoat or painted finish can last far longer than 10 years, but sadly the vast majority of finishes are not well cared for....

Sorry for the poor quality (grainy) pics only had the point & shoot and used "force flash off" which drove up the ISO forcing some grain..


























As for Mike's gelcoat comments that has not been my experience if you do a thorough gelcoat restoration. Sadly most guys stop at "compound" or a polish that is too aggressive which leaves swirls and causes gelcoat to oxidize faster than a glass smooth finish. With darker colors they do oxidize faster and will require a more aggressive polish at year end, but usually not a compound. Most gel boats are white.

Once you've restored a gelcoat finish a once a year a quick polish & wax will keep it looking good nearly indefinitely. We did my buddies Chris's Ericson almost 5 years ago and all he's done in five years is two polishes and yearly applications of Collinite #885. It still looks as good as the day we did it and he skipped three years of polish. I have plenty of examples I can point to with similar results. My guess is that, due to labor costs, Mike most likely can not take the time to do the "complete process" the way an owner can. In my experience doing less than half the process results in less than half the performance...


----------



## TakeFive

Maine Sail said:


> ...If your boat is not to badly oxidized Ultra Cutting Creme with a 3M #05713 pad can get you there in just one step plus the wax..! This is my absolute favorite product for compounding / polishing...


Since my boat was in pretty good shape (only 13 years old, maintained OK by previous owners - I mainly needed to remove some stale yellowed wax), I followed this part of MS's advice. The result looks great.

After the one-step port side compound/polish using the Presta, I started a glaze step using Maguire's #9 (since I could not find Presta Chroma locally). However, after doing a small section, it was having absolutely no effect on the appearance, so I stopped after glazing the port side bootstripe. The next day I did the Presta cream on the starboard side, and I was racing against the diminishing shade on that side, so I did not even glaze the bootstripe. If there are invisible swirl marks that will speed up oxidation, I expect that I'll see a difference between the boot stripes on the two sides of the boat. Time will tell.



Maine Sail said:


> ...Do I apply the wax by hand? Yes!...


In previous years I had used a 6" palm orbital buffer for the Collinite Fleet wax, but this time I found that with the superior surface prep (compound/polish to a high gloss before waxing), the wax buffed out easily by hand with microfiber rag - no need for the electric buffer. It also seemed to take much less wax than it did before, probably due to the reduced surface area.

Also, for boats with only mild oxidation, a big Makita polisher might be overkill. I tried using my 6" orbital buffer to compound/polish the sides of the cabin using Presta Ultra cream, and it easily removed the stale wax and mild oxidation, leaving a surface gloss that was equal in appearance to the hull. For small boats that don't need a 9" pad, and for intricate details that are too small to fit such a large polisher, the smaller buffer seemed to work OK. It's a lot easier on the arms and back, as well. Once again, over time I'll get an idea how this part of the boat holds up vs. the different technique that I used for the hull.


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## CarbonSink62

I think my gelcoat is too far gone to ever look 'great' again, but I'm getting some very satisfying results using the techniques in this thread.

The boat is 30 years old and was taken by the marina for unpaid fees. The last reg sticker is 2008 so it has been on the hard and ignored for at least three years; hard to imagine that the PO kept up with all the maintenance and then never paid the slip fees, so let's assume the neglect started a couple of years before '08.

I wasted some time with rubbing compound when I should have started with 1000 grit sandpaper. I backtracked and did the sanding. It was getting late in the day and I wanted to have something to show for my efforts, so I did the 'full monty' on the first 2 feet of the port side (I had already scraped off the old reg letters and prepped the upper part).

Wet sand
Compound by hand
Polish
Wax (2 coats)

Neither the polish nor the wax are all they could be because I didn't have the bonnets to do them with the buffer (plus the shop was locked up, no power anyway). But what I have looks a helluva lot better. It should look a little better every year that I compound it.

In the pic, you can see some kind of reflection from the boat next door and nothing in the unimproved area. Also the forward 2 feet of the boot stripe looks much better.


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## davidpm

Mike Borrelli called me in response to my email. The following is my take on what he told me. I promised him I would send a link to this thread so he could come on this forum and correct my quotations and add some clarification to his article in Soundings.
I don't know MaineSail very well but I suspect he will welcome some other expert comments. We have all benefited greatly from RC's generous help.

What I learned from Mike is that gel-coat and Algrip are targeting two very different audiences. 
On the one hand you have one audience that wants a durable finish that can last a lifetime and look good. This is the gel-coat people.
On the other hand you have the people who want the ultimate see your nose hair in the reflection shine for as long as possible, these are the Algrip people.

And yes RC he agreed that people that take good care of their Algrip can get 15 to 20 years out of it. As proof of the superior shine that can be expected from paint he referenced the new boats that come out of the mold with gelcoat but are painted before leaving the factory. These are super high-end boats.

He was adamant however that an old gel coated boat that was heavily oxidized and sanded, compounded, polished then waxed would at the end of year start to loose the shine.

Now RC gave me an idea of how to reconcile the two different expert comments.
I suspect that Mike does most of his work for very demanding clients and his jobs cost perhaps well over 10 to 30 thousand dollars maybe much more. 
A gel-coat refurb job is never going to be perfect on a 30 year old boat. There will be dings and scratches that will not compound out and the patch color will never match perfectly and as MS said the labor to do the final polish will be significant. 
If after the second year the deepness of the shine fades even a little bit that will add even more insult. For these customers Mike can give them a guaranteed 10 year job, 15 to twenty if they take care of it and the color and shine and everything will be perfect for at least 10 years. 
For these customers that makes sense.
He also mentioned that on darker colors he clear-coats so in case of a ding he can do a repair that doesn't show, another benefit.

For those of us who don't mind an extra weekend or two polishing our boat and 98% of the boat looks like 100% for the first year and maybe 90% for a few years after that the restore process makes our boat look awesome and costs only maybe a hundred bucks in supplies.

I will send this to Mike and see what he has to say.
And of course we are all interested in what Maine Sail has to say.


----------



## MooGroc

My gel coat was sad looking at best. Oxidized, scuffed, scratched and gouged.
I was seriously considering getting her painted when the local fiberglass guy
pointed out that he could easily repair the few chips and gouges in the gel coat
but that it these would be much harder to repair if the surface had been
Awlgrip.

I gave him the go ahead to repair the 3 worst gel coat gouges. Now
I can't even tell where they were. He made them disappear.

Next, after reading Mail Sail's post and all the follow up posts, I 
decided to give his technique a try. I followed his recommendations
to a tee. I purchased the Makita 9227C, the 3M pads he recommended
and Presta Gel Coat Compound and Presta polishing stuff.

The compounding produced amazing results. I did also polish
after the compounding but it was very hard to see any improvement
over just the compounding. I then applied a coat of NuFinsh
because I already had some (as opposed to wax).

The boat looks amazing. I hope it will prevent the rash at the water line
that forms after the boat is in the water for a few weeks. 

I think I saved myself thousands of dollars for a new paint job. Thanks Maine
Sail!

Anyone have any recommendation for how to compound the cockpit where most of the
surfaces area is too small to use the Makita on. Can it be done by hand?


----------



## frjeff

I have the same Makita as you do. I bought a small backing plate 2+" and it will hold 4" pads. Worked great in the cockpit everywhere except the non-skid.


----------



## Tim R.

You would be surprised at the size space that Makita will fit into. A smaller pad would be nice but I prefer the Presta pads and they are only one size. I have buffed a cockpit with the Makita just fine.


----------



## Lopezian

Maine:
Many thanks for a superb description of the tools and processes of spiffing up your boat. I intend to follow it to the letter. 

One question: for the small, tight places where the Makita is awkward and cumbersome, can I use my Makita 6" random orbit sander instead? Otherwise, I'll have to apply the buffing/polishing coats by hand; that will be a lot of elbow grease and won't produce a uniform result, I'm afraid.

Thanks again,

Lopezian

P.S. Belay the question. After doing what I should have done first--read all the responses to Maine's initial post--I see the question's been asked and answered more than once. So, onward with the orbital for the decks, cockpit, and cabin. But thanks once again to Maine Sail for a truly valuable post.


----------



## Lopezian

_For (heavily discounted) sale: complete package of buffing tools and materials as specified by Maine Sail._ (No, this isn't your usual spam.)

Sailors and Fellow Gelcoat Polishers:

I've grossly overreached. Reading Maine Sail's description of restoring gelcoat, I was so enthusiastic I purchased online his recommended tools and materials to the letter.

When the Presta products arrived, before the Makita buffer, I worked over by hand a small patch in the cockpit with Presta Gel Coat Compound. Amazing. A blinding, glossy surface appeared. Hey, this will be a cinch, sez I to myself.

It was not to be.

Undertaking the project with a full bag of tools and supplies, I could NOT replicate my first euphoric success. The best I could do with Gel Coat Compound was a cleaner, brighter surface but still dull and flat.

What the hell?

Turns out the patch I worked on was almost new gelcoat, applied by the previous owner in repairing some damage, and was only very slightly oxidized. The rest of the boat was built in 1985, however, and apparently has had little done to it since.

What I've concluded now is discouraging. I'll have to start wet sanding, probably with 400 grit ( tried 600, and that hardly touched it), and on up in steps to 1000, the most abrasive sanding that Gel Coat Compound can smooth out.

Well, at 79 years of age I'm both too feeble and too saavy to go over the boat four times with wet-or-dry and then do 5 coats of compound, polish, glaze, and Collinite twice--as Maine Sail recommends.

I intend to farm out the job to a far younger, far more vigorous boat shiner at my local boatyard.

So I have for sale:
1 Makita 9227C, with both handles, carrying bag, and accessories
1 32oz bottle each of Presta Gel Coat Compound, Ultra Cutting Creme, and Chroma
1 3M Compounding Pad #05711, unused
1 3M Polishing Pad 05713, unused
1 3M Foam Polishing Pad #05725, unused
1 Makita Compounding Pad (used once and cleaned)
3 Makita Polishing Pads (unused)
1 can Collinite 885

I'm truly disappointed it's come to this. I was looking forward to a few pleasant days of working on the boat and a spectacular result. But not all the wet sanding, thanks.

$275 for the lot.

Lopezian

.


----------



## Maine Sail

Lopezian said:


> _For (heavily discounted) sale: complete package of buffing tools and materials as specified by Maine Sail._ (No, this isn't your usual spam.)
> 
> Sailors and Fellow Gelcoat Polishers:
> 
> I've grossly overreached. Reading Maine Sail's description of restoring gelcoat, I was so enthusiastic I purchased online his recommended tools and materials to the letter.
> 
> When the Presta products arrived, before the Makita buffer, I worked over by hand a small patch in the cockpit with Presta Gel Coat Compound. Amazing. A blinding, glossy surface appeared. Hey, this will be a cinch, sez I to myself.
> 
> It was not to be.
> 
> Undertaking the project with a full bag of tools and supplies, I could NOT replicate my first euphoric success. The best I could do with Gel Coat Compound was a cleaner, brighter surface but still dull and flat.
> 
> What the hell?
> 
> Turns out the patch I worked on was almost new gelcoat, applied by the previous own in repairing some damage, and was only very slightly oxidized. The rest of the boat was built in 1985, however, and apparently has had little done to it since.
> 
> What I've concluded now is discouraging. I'll have to start wet sanding, probably with 400 grit ( tried 600, and that hardly touched it), and on up in steps to 1000, the most abrasive sanding that Gel Coat Compound can smooth out.
> 
> Well, at 79 years of age I'm both too feeble and too saavy to go over the boat four times with wet-or-dry and then do 5 coats of compound, polish, glaze, and Collinite twice--as Maine Sail recommends.
> 
> I intend to farm out the job to a far younger, far more vigorous boat shiner at my local boatyard.
> 
> So I have for sale:
> 1 Makita 9227C, with both handles, carrying bag, and accessories
> 1 32oz bottle each of Presta Gel Coat Compound, Ultra Cutting Creme, and Chroma
> 1 3M Compounding Pad #05711, unused
> 1 3M Polishing Pad 05713, unused
> 1 3M Foam Polishing Pad #05725, unused
> 1 Makita Compounding Pad (used once and cleaned)
> 3 Makita Polishing Pads (unused)
> 1 can Collinite 885
> 
> I'm truly disappointed it's come to this. I was looking forward to a few pleasant days of working on the boat and a spectacular result. But not all the wet sanding, thanks.
> 
> $275 for the lot.
> 
> Lopezian
> 
> .


Lets not thorw in the towel just yet. Can you tell us what exactly you did. What was the pad. What speeds were you using, how much compound, was the pad dry when you started or damp? Even a badly oxidized hull will shine up with Presta Gelcoat. It will look better if you wet sand but it should not be flat.

If you started at a slow speed did you ever increase it? Increasing the speed breaks the grit down to a finer grade and creates a better shine. If you keep is slow the whole time you may not get the desired result. You don't need to go great guns on speed but you do need to go fast enough to break the grit down to finer particles.

I can fully understand your frustration at 79 I can only hope to be alive let alone buffing a boat with a 7 pound machine.!! Great attitude!!

BTW that is a STEAL for all that gear.... Sorry it did not work for you but A+ for the effort..


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

Lopezian said:


> _For (heavily discounted) sale: complete package of buffing tools and materials as specified by Maine Sail._ (No, this isn't your usual spam.)
> 
> Sailors and Fellow Gelcoat Polishers:
> 
> I've grossly overreached. Reading Maine Sail's description of restoring gelcoat, I was so enthusiastic I purchased online his recommended tools and materials to the letter.
> 
> When the Presta products arrived, before the Makita buffer, I worked over by hand a small patch in the cockpit with Presta Gel Coat Compound. Amazing. A blinding, glossy surface appeared. Hey, this will be a cinch, sez I to myself.
> 
> It was not to be.
> 
> Undertaking the project with a full bag of tools and supplies, I could NOT replicate my first euphoric success. The best I could do with Gel Coat Compound was a cleaner, brighter surface but still dull and flat.
> 
> What the hell?
> 
> Turns out the patch I worked on was almost new gelcoat, applied by the previous owner in repairing some damage, and was only very slightly oxidized. The rest of the boat was built in 1985, however, and apparently has had little done to it since.
> 
> What I've concluded now is discouraging. I'll have to start wet sanding, probably with 400 grit ( tried 600, and that hardly touched it), and on up in steps to 1000, the most abrasive sanding that Gel Coat Compound can smooth out.
> 
> Well, at 79 years of age I'm both too feeble and too saavy to go over the boat four times with wet-or-dry and then do 5 coats of compound, polish, glaze, and Collinite twice--as Maine Sail recommends.
> 
> I intend to farm out the job to a far younger, far more vigorous boat shiner at my local boatyard.
> 
> So I have for sale:
> 1 Makita 9227C, with both handles, carrying bag, and accessories
> 1 32oz bottle each of Presta Gel Coat Compound, Ultra Cutting Creme, and Chroma
> 1 3M Compounding Pad #05711, unused
> 1 3M Polishing Pad 05713, unused
> 1 3M Foam Polishing Pad #05725, unused
> 1 Makita Compounding Pad (used once and cleaned)
> 3 Makita Polishing Pads (unused)
> 1 can Collinite 885
> 
> I'm truly disappointed it's come to this. I was looking forward to a few pleasant days of working on the boat and a spectacular result. But not all the wet sanding, thanks.
> 
> $275 for the lot.
> 
> Lopezian
> 
> .


It sounds like you want to hire some detailing company/guy to do the job.

Have you considered instead to hire just some random person (high school student?) to do it, using the equipment you already have? This is not rocket science (I have done it so I know) and by having someone just providing the brawn using your equipment, rather than giving the job to someone who puts 'Yacht Detailer' on his or her shingle, may save you as much (or more) to pay for the equipment.

Just a thought.


----------



## Lopezian

MS--

I appreciate your sympathy as much as your expertise, but the towel has been irretrievably tossed.

On the topsides of the boat I didn't use the 9227C at all. What I did I did by hand. When the Presta Gelcoat yielded essentially nothing, I recalled reading somewhere that old wax will impede the compounding, so I took a healthy Scotchbrite pad and a strong solution of dishwashing detergent and scrubbed like hell for a while. Then I tried the Presta again. Not much if any improvement. So it's back to studying Maine Sail's very knowledgeable instructions--particularly about the possible need to wet sand. OK. Start with 600. Did that, waiting for SOME gloss to show up. A very little bit did--sort of a sheen, not a shine. Try the Presta again. Not much help. Another swipe of wet sanding. Etc. 

I was gaining ground but very slowly, so concluded I'd have to back off to a 400 grit. Then the 600, then 800, then 1000, and finally back to Presta products.

Whoa, Old Timer, you're getting close to a "project boat" situation here.

If I hire a pro to detail my boat, he'll use a power wet-sander, very likely, and your advice about an amateur trying that is sound: don't do it.

So I will follow that sage suggestion and look up a detailer indeed.

But thanks again for a thorough and savvy (and appealing!) discussion of gelcoat maintenance. Wish I'd run across that long ago.

But I've found Sailnet and its congenial, savvy sailors. I'll stick around here.

Cheers,

Lopezian


----------



## Lopezian

MastUndSchotbruch,

Thanks for the suggestion, but I do think I need a pro. My major problem is my ignorance of this whole process, in particular in diagnosing the level of oxidation and prescribing the appropriate treatment. I wouldn't know what to tell a young bucko with a strong back exactly what I want done. If you or Maine Sail were looking over my shoulder telling me what is needed, I find that bucko in a flash. But it's off to the detailer shop for me and Rowdy, my dear old (and shabby) Flicka. Thanks again.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

Lopezian said:


> MastUndSchotbruch,
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion, but I do think I need a pro. My major problem is my ignorance of this whole process, in particular in diagnosing the level of oxidation and prescribing the appropriate treatment. I wouldn't know what to tell a young bucko with a strong back exactly what I want done. If you or Maine Sail were looking over my shoulder telling me what is needed, I find that bucko in a flash. But it's off to the detailer shop for me and Rowdy, my dear old (and shabby) Flicka. Thanks again.


Yup, I see your point. If you need to have the boat power-sanded, this may indeed be the best course of action.

And you wouldn't want _me_ to guide the progress, I just followed MaineSail's instruction to the dot. This is all I know about this stuff.


----------



## iambill

Lopezian said:


> _For (heavily discounted) sale: complete package of buffing tools and materials as specified by Maine Sail._ (No, this isn't your usual spam.)
> 
> Sailors and Fellow Gelcoat Polishers:
> 
> I've grossly overreached. Reading Maine Sail's description of restoring gelcoat, I was so enthusiastic I purchased online his recommended tools and materials to the letter.
> 
> When the Presta products arrived, before the Makita buffer, I worked over by hand a small patch in the cockpit with Presta Gel Coat Compound. Amazing. A blinding, glossy surface appeared. Hey, this will be a cinch, sez I to myself.
> 
> It was not to be.
> 
> Undertaking the project with a full bag of tools and supplies, I could NOT replicate my first euphoric success. The best I could do with Gel Coat Compound was a cleaner, brighter surface but still dull and flat.
> 
> What the hell?
> 
> Turns out the patch I worked on was almost new gelcoat, applied by the previous owner in repairing some damage, and was only very slightly oxidized. The rest of the boat was built in 1985, however, and apparently has had little done to it since.
> 
> What I've concluded now is discouraging. I'll have to start wet sanding, probably with 400 grit ( tried 600, and that hardly touched it), and on up in steps to 1000, the most abrasive sanding that Gel Coat Compound can smooth out.
> 
> Well, at 79 years of age I'm both too feeble and too saavy to go over the boat four times with wet-or-dry and then do 5 coats of compound, polish, glaze, and Collinite twice--as Maine Sail recommends.
> 
> I intend to farm out the job to a far younger, far more vigorous boat shiner at my local boatyard.
> 
> So I have for sale:
> 1 Makita 9227C, with both handles, carrying bag, and accessories
> 1 32oz bottle each of Presta Gel Coat Compound, Ultra Cutting Creme, and Chroma
> 1 3M Compounding Pad #05711, unused
> 1 3M Polishing Pad 05713, unused
> 1 3M Foam Polishing Pad #05725, unused
> 1 Makita Compounding Pad (used once and cleaned)
> 3 Makita Polishing Pads (unused)
> 1 can Collinite 885
> 
> I'm truly disappointed it's come to this. I was looking forward to a few pleasant days of working on the boat and a spectacular result. But not all the wet sanding, thanks.
> 
> $275 for the lot.
> 
> Lopezian
> 
> .


Lopezian,
Do you still have these items? I'd be interested.
I can be reached at iambillsema[email protected]

If they are gone, does anyone have a recommendation on where to purchase the Presta goods these days? It looks like Defender has stopped carrying them.
Bill


----------



## Tim R.

Car Care Products: Presta Car Detailing Supplies, Car Wax, Car Polish, Buffing Compounds, Body Shop Detailing Products


----------



## iambill

I'd like to get some 3-4" pads also due to some detailed areas. I haven't been able to find matching 3M pads in this size. Are they available?

Can anyone (Maine Sail?) cross reference the preferred Lake County pads, which I can get from AutoGeek.net?

Any better ideas?


----------



## TakeFive

I went to the Presta website to find dealers for their products. The local Presta dealer also had a full complement of 3M pads.

In general, I'd expect every auto paint supplier to carry them. There are thousands of them, often in out-of-the-way industrial parks.


----------



## Arclight

Maine Sail,

Per your suggestion, I purchased the Makita 9227C kit which came with two polishing pads; a white and a yellow. My hull has some shine and is in fairly good shape so I intend to start at step 4 with the Finesse-it II and then finish up with the Collinite 885 applied by hand and then buffed out with microfiber cloths. The question I have is which of the two pads, the white or the yellow, should I use. The yellow has a finer nap.

TIA,

Arclight


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

Arclight said:


> Maine Sail,
> 
> Per your suggestion, I purchased the Makita 9227C kit which came with two polishing pads; a white and a yellow. My hull has some shine and is in fairly good shape so I intend to start at step 4 with the Finesse-it II and then finish up with the Collinite 885 applied by hand and then buffed out with microfiber cloths. The question I have is which of the two pads, the white or the yellow, should I use. The yellow has a finer nap.
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Arclight


I got the same although I did not use the pads that came with the machine (I already had ordered the 3M pads). Based on the comparison with the 3M pads, I believe the white one is for compounding, the yellow for polishing. Just as you suspected.


----------



## Tim R.

Arclight said:


> Maine Sail,
> 
> Per your suggestion, I purchased the Makita 9227C kit which came with two polishing pads; a white and a yellow. My hull has some shine and is in fairly good shape so I intend to start at step 4 with the Finesse-it II and then finish up with the Collinite 885 applied by hand and then buffed out with microfiber cloths. The question I have is which of the two pads, the white or the yellow, should I use. The yellow has a finer nap.
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Arclight


I do a touch up polish on my boat every year. A green blended wool Presta pad with Presta Cutting Creme does a wonderful job.


----------



## iambill

Well, everything on the way. Now for the tough part. Should start a night or two a week after work next week. Hopefully I can have everything wrapped up by mid June.

I ended up purchasing the Makita 9227C from Amazon. 3M pads from Napa. Compound/Polish from Presta. 4" Lake County Pads from autogeek.net. Sure wish some retailer out there made it easy and stocked all these products in one place.


----------



## oomfh

iambill said:


> . . . 4" Lake County Pads from autogeek.net . . . Sure wish some retailer out there made it easy and stocked all these products in one place.


Please let us know how the foam pads work out - I ended up using the green wool from Presta for the glaze - noticable difference. Guy at Autogeek had never heard of Presta 

With the exception of the polisher, I got all of my product from here at very competitive prices + free shipping.

Body Shop Tools Air Tools Accessories Power Air Tools Automotive Tools

Am I allowed to post this link?


----------



## pfile

I've been reading this thread with interest as it would apply to my deck and cockpit. 

Wonder if anyone could comment on cleaning and care for a 10 year old AWLGRIP job? 

I have several areas of black steaks and having a terrible job of removing them. I tried applying star brite black stain remover but it certainly did take away some of the AWLGRIP shine, even when leaving on for a very short 20 second period a gentle rub and then wash with clean water. 

How can I remove the old name from an AWLGRIP hull without compounding? 

I know that I'm not supposed to compound or use any buffing on AWLGRIP and I'm at a loss to get the marks from the black stains and old name vinyl out ?

Any ideas 

Thanks


----------



## F15EWSO

Hoping to get an estimate on amount of product needed for a 40' boat?

After reading and trying to get smarter am looking at the Collinite #885 (12 oz tin) and Presta Ultra Cutting Creme followed by Chroma. 

I'd like to get the right amount of product needed a the nearby Body Shop and not get left short with 10% of the job left. 

Does anyone have a guess-timate on how much they need for a 40 footer?


----------



## TakeFive

F15EWSO said:


> Hoping to get an estimate on amount of product needed for a 40' boat?
> 
> After reading and trying to get smarter am looking at the Collinite #885 (12 oz tin) and Presta Ultra Cutting Creme followed by Chroma.
> 
> I'd like to get the right amount of product needed a the nearby Body Shop and not get left short with 10% of the job left.
> 
> Does anyone have a guess-timate on how much they need for a 40 footer?


The amount of Presta would largely depend on how oxidized your gelcoat is. Mine was very lightly oxidized, so I used it very sparingly and did my 25' hull and part of the topsides with about half of a 32 oz. bottle. A lightly oxidized 40 footer would probably use 3-4x that (higher freeboard makes the area go up more than linearly), and even more for heavy oxidation.

Be aware that Presta has many different container types and sizes that are not shown on their website (gallon bottles, gallon tubs). My local shop had a 100-128 oz tub of the stuff (can't remember exact size). It was 3x-4x the size of the bottle for only 2x the price. I like tubs better because you don't have the yield loss from stuff sticking to the inside walls of a bottle, but the tub would have been way too much for my needs. Obviously, the tubs don't have as much shelf life as the bottles because they don't seal as well. But for your boat, a tub would me a very economical way to go since you're going to use a lot of it right away.

From my experience with the 885, I think you could do the whole boat with one can. Proper polishing with the Presta will reduce the amount of wax needed.


----------



## F15EWSO

RhythmDoctor

Thanks for the response, I was aware that there were different sizes. I'm hoping to go with a "tub" or other economical size and then have the smallest bottle in reserve (with the option to return it if I don't need it) and was not aware that the #885 could go so far. As you state, good prep work will minimize the need for excessive wax.
Will watch and see if other estimates on product used come in.


----------



## Maine Sail

F15EWSO said:


> RhythmDoctor
> 
> Thanks for the response, I was aware that there were different sizes. I'm hoping to go with a "tub" or other economical size and then have the smallest bottle in reserve (with the option to return it if I don't need it) and was not aware that the #885 could go so far. As you state, good prep work will minimize the need for excessive wax.
> Will watch and see if other estimates on product used come in.


A can of #885 paste can probably do a 40' boat three times +... For the Presta a 32 oz bottle should come close, if lightly oxidized. You can save some money by using all Presta Ultra Cutting Creme.

Do the first round with while wool second with blue Presta wool or yellow wool 3M pad. The results with Ultra Cutting Creme and a blue Presta pad or yellow wool 3M pad are about where you end up with Finesse It.... Try it first then buy Chroma/Swirl Remover if necessary. A gallon tub of Ultra Cutting Creme will usually be a better value..


----------



## F15EWSO

Maine Sail said:


> A can of #885 paste can probably do a 40' boat three times +... For the Presta a 32 oz bottle should come close, if lightly oxidized. You can save some money by using all Presta Ultra Cutting Creme.
> 
> Do the first round with while wool second with blue Presta wool or yellow wool 3M pad. The results with Ultra Cutting Creme and a blue Presta pad or yellow wool 3M pad are about where you end up with Finesse It.... Try it first then buy Chroma/Swirl Remover if necessary. A gallon tub of Ultra Cutting Creme will usually be a better value..


MaineSail,
thanks for chiming in; am I to understand that with the Presta Ultra Cutting and a yellow 3m on the second application/effort that would give me similar results as if I used Finesse It and polishing pad? If I like the results at that point then the Collonite #885 to seal it?


----------



## Maine Sail

F15EWSO said:


> MaineSail,
> thanks for chiming in; am I to understand that with the Presta Ultra Cutting and a yellow 3m on the second application/effort that would give me similar results as if I used Finesse It and polishing pad? If I like the results at that point then the Collonite #885 to seal it?


Yes, through experimentation a friend and I have discovered the the diminishing grit in Presta can leave a finish darn near as good as Finesse It if you do a second pass with the polishing pad and a slightly higher finishing speed.


----------



## night0wl

MaineSail...here's my conundrum.

I have a relatively new boat, 3 years old. Live near an area of a power plant incinerator, so I get this particularly nasty soot that is not even coming off with dawn detergent wash. So I've thought about a few options, but I'm wondering what the long term effects of these are:

1) Using Collinite #920 to get down to bare gelcoat to rebuild the wax process. This stuff is cheap and is in the Collinite family. What I dont know or like very much is that it appears to use silica which means its an abrasive. I dont like abrasives at all because modern production boat gelcoats are thin as it is and I want to minimize the use of anything that could wear through it. Plus, abrasives inevitably mean a wax/buff application...which will be hard work to do right. Like a waxing/buffing process.

2) Using Interlux 202 solvent. This takes the grime *RIGHT* off. But I dont know what the long term effects of continual use of solvent are on the gelcoat. I intend to own the boat a long time, so solvents in general make me concern. I've heard things like it can make gelcoat soft/sticky, etc. In looking at the ingredients on the quart bottle I bought, the 3 components of this wash are: Methyl Isobutyl Ketone, Cyclohexanon, Aromatich Naptha. Also, this stuff is pricey...at $50 a gallon or $25 a quart

3) FXR or Oxalic acid wash. This stuff is in Black Streak Remover, FXR wash, ON/Off wash, etc. Seems to remove the soot/grease/grime and is a cheap product. I worry about its effect on metal including my aluminum toe rail, various stainless bits/bobs. Its impossible to mask everything off and then do a wholesale cleaning of the boat using this stuff. How much contact with metal is needed before pitting or damage to metal occurs? 

Basically, I'm trying to get to bare gel-coat and working my way back up with wax coats of Collinite #885


----------



## Maine Sail

night0wl said:


> MaineSail...here's my conundrum.
> 
> I have a relatively new boat, 3 years old. Live near an area of a power plant incinerator, so I get this particularly nasty soot that is not even coming off with dawn detergent wash. So I've thought about a few options, but I'm wondering what the long term effects of these are:
> 
> 1) Using Collinite #920 to get down to bare gelcoat to rebuild the wax process. This stuff is cheap and is in the Collinite family. What I dont know or like very much is that it appears to use silica which means its an abrasive. I dont like abrasives at all because modern production boat gelcoats are thin as it is and I want to minimize the use of anything that could wear through it. Plus, abrasives inevitably mean a wax/buff application...which will be hard work to do right. Like a waxing/buffing process.
> 
> 2) Using Interlux 202 solvent. This takes the grime *RIGHT* off. But I dont know what the long term effects of continual use of solvent are on the gelcoat. I intend to own the boat a long time, so solvents in general make me concern. I've heard things like it can make gelcoat soft/sticky, etc. In looking at the ingredients on the quart bottle I bought, the 3 components of this wash are: Methyl Isobutyl Ketone, Cyclohexanon, Aromatich Naptha. Also, this stuff is pricey...at $50 a gallon or $25 a quart
> 
> 3) FXR or Oxalic acid wash. This stuff is in Black Streak Remover, FXR wash, ON/Off wash, etc. Seems to remove the soot/grease/grime and is a cheap product. I worry about its effect on metal including my aluminum toe rail, various stainless bits/bobs. Its impossible to mask everything off and then do a wholesale cleaning of the boat using this stuff. How much contact with metal is needed before pitting or damage to metal occurs?
> 
> Basically, I'm trying to get to bare gel-coat and working my way back up with wax coats of Collinite #885


Try NAPTHA. One of my favorites for removing wax, grime etc. and a lot cheaper than Interlux 202.....

PLEASE DO NOT worry about the thickness of your gelcoat. Even the thinnest gelcoat is 20-30 times thicker than the clear coat of a car and cars are buffed with the SAME polishes and compounds as boats are.

The new boats have gelcoat just as thick as any other boat. I buff 40 year old gelocaot boats that are still not burned through and that have been buffed with abrasives for 40 years. I'm buffing/polishing a 1978 Cape Dory 36 next week and this boat is buffed EVERY year and has been since about 1981 when this owner bought it. Boat still looks amazing for a 33 year old boat..


----------



## lancelot9898

Hi Maine,

Appreciate all your posts. Speaking of waxing the hull, have you ever heard of wet sanding with 1000grit sandpaper to remove small imperfections in the gelkote prior to putting on the wax? The imperfections are small raised dimples that have appeared over the years. It's not over the entire hull just around the bow on the starboard side which for years received the afternoon sun. It's an area about 2 to 3 feet above the waterline.


----------



## bateauras

Chapeau Monsieur Maine Sail!
Followed your instructions and my 32 years old O'Day look amazing after 3 days of work (hull & cockpit).
I used a 35$ 7" Variable Speed Polisher/Sander from Harbor Freight.
Thank You!


----------



## our38

I'm glad I found this link. We just purchased (yesterday) a 1980 ericson 38' that hasn't been out of the water, or possibly the slip, for about eleven years; with the exception of the haul out for survey. I'm very new to all this, only just learned how to sail, and decided I want to spend time on the water. The bottom needs repairs AND buffing, and the deck needs buffing really bad (I guess); it's all powdery, so I guess it needs the rubbing compound. I'll go through your list, purchase the tools and materials, and start on the deck this weekend to see how it goes. Where would be the best place to purchase the buffer, pads, and compounds? Would Home Depot carry that stuff, or do I need to find a Marine Supply store, or do I need to mail order it?

Any additional information or direction would be much appreciated. I'll be sure to take before and after pics and post them on this link whenever I get done. It may take all summer though , as I'm also rebuilding my house, yikes!


----------



## maine89

our38 said:


> I'm glad I found this link. We just purchased (yesterday) a 1980 ericson 38' that hasn't been out of the water, or possibly the slip, for about eleven years; with the exception of the haul out for survey. I'm very new to all this, only just learned how to sail, and decided I want to spend time on the water. The bottom needs repairs AND buffing, and the deck needs buffing really bad (I guess); it's all powdery, so I guess it needs the rubbing compound. I'll go through your list, purchase the tools and materials, and start on the deck this weekend to see how it goes. Where would be the best place to purchase the buffer, pads, and compounds? Would Home Depot carry that stuff, or do I need to find a Marine Supply store, or do I need to mail order it?
> 
> Any additional information or direction would be much appreciated. I'll be sure to take before and after pics and post them on this link whenever I get done. It may take all summer though , as I'm also rebuilding my house, yikes!


Congrats on your buy. I could only find the compounds online but I didn't check out any specialty shops. The buffer and pads I purchased on amazon but you could probably find those locally. The buffer on amazon came with a couple pads but I had already bought some others as directed so I'm not sure if yours will come with those or even if they are any good. Good luck.


----------



## F15EWSO

*HELP with a bonnet(s) or pad!?*

I have a Milwaukee 7" buffer I bought used and can't seem to get a handle on the type of pads/buffer that goes with my particular model. It has a hard black rubber disk that came to me with a wool buffer with a hard plastic interior that seems to have the "loop" of the "hook and loop" combination normally referred to as Velcro on the inside. The hard black disk has no "hooks" at all. The Wool pad is fastened to the disk using a metal type bolt that fastens the whole combination together.

My dilemma is that when I go to shop a new set of pads I can't seem to find anything that describes my attachment type. I've seen some sold that tighten with a string too but that is not what I currently have.

ANy help would be appreciated.


----------



## bandaidmd

*Re: HELP with a bonnet(s) or pad!?*



F15EWSO said:


> I have a Milwaukee 7" buffer I bought used and can't seem to get a handle on the type of pads/buffer that goes with my particular model. It has a hard black rubber disk that came to me with a wool buffer with a hard plastic interior that seems to have the "loop" of the "hook and loop" combination normally referred to as Velcro on the inside. The hard black disk has no "hooks" at all. The Wool pad is fastened to the disk using a metal type bolt that fastens the whole combination together.
> 
> My dilemma is that when I go to shop a new set of pads I can't seem to find anything that describes my attachment type. I've seen some sold that tighten with a string too but that is not what I currently have.
> 
> ANy help would be appreciated.


Does the shaft on your buffer have external threads? (most of the HD models are 5/8") If so it uses a flanged nut that tucks down under the nap of your buffing pad and sandwichs/clamps the pad and backer togetherusually on this type the backer will have a hex to accept the flange nut.. I had a ole cheepie model made by wen that used a screw into a hollow sfaft on the tool but the principal is the same either way. Post a pic of the machine if you need further help.


----------



## F15EWSO

BandaidMD,
I'll get a photo but right now it's raining buckets. So you say the flange is enough to hold/press the pad to the rubber ring and just holds it there? Your description matches the Milwaukee, I'll need to go the shed when rain stops and confirm and get a digital snap.


----------



## bandaidmd

I went out in the shop to get the nut and take a pic for you but when i got in the drawer i realized i had lost it. What i used as a work arround was a nut like in the link that came off a cheepie harbor freight 4" grinder that has the same 5/8x11 thread. From my research it looks like we have old school tools and should upgrade everything from threaded shaft on.lol If you can make that spanner nut work the whole grinder from HF is less than $20 and when your done buffing you'll have a handy grinder to use.

Miscellaneous Hand Tools - Titan 22511 5/8 x 11 Flange Nut and Wrench Set

EDIT: looking back at your backing plate picture i think this style is probably exactly what your missing.


----------



## F15EWSO

bandaidmd,
here's a good pic of the Milwaukee and its mode of attachment. I have all the parts, I'm just confused by the two (or is it three) types keeping the pad on the wheel. Is it Velcro (hook-it), tightened string, or just pressure from the flange? THe sites that sell don't seem to be clear and all the professional body shops near me are closed when I'm off work, can't seem to get some local advice.

I want to have this right before I spend 25-35$ on pads/bonnet if I go online.
THanks


----------



## bandaidmd

Thats good it looks like you have everything. The type of pad you had in your first picture is really the best style for your setup. Push the nut down into the hole of the pad against the semirigid backer that the napp is mounted on,now place that onto the hard black rubber piece with the exposed part of the nut down in the recess on the black rubber backer. Now take this and screw it onto your motor,to tighten press the spindle lock and grab the pad and backer and give a good twist,its that simple. You have plenty of pads to choose from with this style including the foam rubber type for light polishing. For the velcro style you will have to purchase everything new from the threaded shaft out. Those tie on bonnetts,just leave them at the store.

If theres a auto parts store near you they have these supplies its the same stuff the body shops use. I'm talking a real old school type store not autozone or advanced, NAPA would be a good choice ,take your grinder in with you if you want there pros and very willing to help.
where you at near DC?


----------



## F15EWSO

bandaidmd,
thanks for the clarification! I think the "loop" on the current pad was throwing me. And I knew the "string" types are awful. The pad I have feels way to rough and must be compounding vs polish. My boat is in pretty good shape finish wise so I'll go straight to polish pad(s).

Cheers


----------



## bandaidmd

hey i almost forgot ,check your rpms on that miwalkee if its a grinder and not a polisher it will easily burn whatever your buffing. I dont remember the exact numbers but its something like 3 to 4k for a buffer and upwards of 7k for a grinder.

you can clean that pad by spinning it and using the tip of an old phillips screwdriver across the face ,you'll be surprised to find how soft it becomes after cleaning.


----------



## Brewgyver

F15EWSO said:


> bandaidmd,
> thanks for the clarification! I think the "loop" on the current pad was throwing me. And I knew the "string" types are awful. The pad I have feels way to rough and must be compounding vs polish. My boat is in pretty good shape finish wise so I'll go straight to polish pad(s).
> 
> Cheers


I believe Milwalkee also sells a hook pad that will peel and stick onto the rubber disk you already have, then you can use the hook and loop bonnets.


----------



## TheRaven

My boss is stupid, thinks 3-1/2 days is to long for detailing a 30 foot Catalina, that is heavivy oxidized, rust stained, dirty, tarnished metal and a bunch of other details. Sorry but I take pride in my work, this is not some $50 wax/detail at some ghetto drive through car wash! His mentality is not that high, here's his typical detail job ( ones I don't do) let's wet sand *even if the gel coats very lightly oxized, still shiny, or extremely thin, ect.... He uses plain sheets 1500-2000 grit paper, with very rapid uneven pressure, leaving deep finger marks and swirls. Then he proceeds to compound it or even worse 3m 1 step it! Which dont even remove the sanding marks, then applys and removes the Collinite wax with a compounding pad at high speeds. So there's swirls from the wetsanding,compounding and waxing, but if it looks shiny it's ok and all he cares about. Even with his crappy selection of products I can easily out do him, with stuff I've learned online and such, I've stared out knowing nothing and took me a little while get the the full aspect of the whole process, I have never fully done it properly(bits and pieces but not the whole thing), but have a plan too with the proper products and technics.


----------



## maine89

TheRaven said:


> My boss is stupid, thinks 3-1/2 days is to long for detailing a 30 foot Catalina, that is heavivy oxidized, rust stained, dirty, tarnished metal and a bunch of other details. Sorry but I take pride in my work, this is not some $50 wax/detail at some ghetto drive through car wash! His mentality is not that high, here's his typical detail job ( ones I don't do) let's wet sand *even if the gel coats very lightly oxized, still shiny, or extremely thin, ect.... He uses plain sheets 1500-2000 grit paper, with very rapid uneven pressure, leaving deep finger marks and swirls. Then he proceeds to compound it or even worse 3m 1 step it! Which dont even remove the sanding marks, then applys and removes the Collinite wax with a compounding pad at high speeds. So there's swirls from the wetsanding,compounding and waxing, but if it looks shiny it's ok and all he cares about. Even with his crappy selection of products I can easily out do him, with stuff I've learned online and such, I've stared out knowing nothing and took me a little while get the the full aspect of the whole process, I have never fully done it properly(bits and pieces but not the whole thing), but have a plan too with the proper products and technics.


Sounds like you'll be in a great position to compete with him when you're ready.


----------



## Chinook2218

Maine Sail,

I plan on following your post to "t" on a 1985 Catalina 36 that has medium oxidation. I plan on also wetsanding the hull prior to applying the compound. My question is how much Presta product should I order to complete the job? How much time should I allot? I am a complete novice at this.

All,

Looking for opinions... pulled the boat out of the water and found a dozen or so 2-4" blisters on the starboard side. They appear purely cosmetic and have not changed in size over the last couple of years. Everyone has their own opinion, but I am thinking about just leaving them and just apply a couple of fresh coats of bottom paint. I never heard of a boat sinking due to blisters. Any thoughts?


----------



## F15EWSO

Chinook2218 said:


> Maine Sail,
> 
> I plan on following your post to "t" on a 1985 Catalina 36 that has medium oxidation. I plan on also wetsanding the hull prior to applying the compound. My question is how much Presta product should I order to complete the job? How much time should I allot? I am a complete novice at this.
> 
> All,
> 
> Looking for opinions... pulled the boat out of the water and found a dozen or so 2-4" blisters on the starboard side. They appear purely cosmetic and have not changed in size over the last couple of years. Everyone has their own opinion, but I am thinking about just leaving them and just apply a couple of fresh coats of bottom paint. I never heard of a boat sinking due to blisters. Any thoughts?


I did my 43 foot Irwin with a 32 oz bottle then did my Explorer, my son's Honda and still have product left. As we worked the boat with a wool bonnet we found that if we put TOO much presta we worked twice as hard. Don't use more than you need for the polish as getting it off can be tough. As you start the job your learning curve will go up very quickly.


----------



## TheRaven

Any tips for hand compounding/polishing, for parts the buffer won't fit. To keep it looking the same as the machine polished area. How about curved surfaces, say above the toerail ect.. The last thing, what's the best way to remove someone's crappy wet sanding job( scratches/swirls) is more work to try to buff it out, or is it better to wetsand it again correctly.


----------



## thedude

Thanks for the great info. I plan on doing a quick wax for the winter, and tackle the full compound, polish, wax in the spring.


----------



## dsmauney

*Tips For Compound, Polish & Wax*

Maine

Followed instructions to the letter. Worked very well. Having water sprayer available made work and results uniform. Got comments like "did you get the boat painted". Thanks much.

Goodwinds
DaveM


----------



## Maine Sail

*Re: Tips For Compound, Polish & Wax*



dsmauney said:


> Maine
> 
> Followed instructions to the letter. Worked very well. Having water sprayer available made work and results uniform. Got comments like "did you get the boat painted". Thanks much.
> 
> Goodwinds
> DaveM


Glad it could help... Had a few folks quoted 12k+ for a paint job who got frustrated and "re-conditioned" their own gelcoat for under $350.00 including buying a new buffer.......


----------



## p_everette

I too got excellent results. Turned out very well for 36 year old Gelcoat.

Thank You!


----------



## smresq

Very helpful.

Thanks!


----------



## Maine Sail

p_everette said:


> I too got excellent results. Turned out very well for 36 year old Gelcoat.
> 
> Thank You!


36 years old !!!! Nice!!!!!!!!


----------



## Jomax

Maine, I can't thank you enough. I don't own a boat yet, but own a 38ft 5th wheel that needs TLC. Ordered a Gallon of Gel compound, Gallon of Ultra cutting creme, and a gallon of Ultra Polish. Overkill, yes, but the money i saved buying more was well worth it. Also ordered a Dewalt 849x. All i have left are pads a LSP. I know you recommend 3m's wool compound pad, but will a compound wool pad from say Meguiars or Buff and shine work? Also what color foam pad from lake country do you use for step 2 and 3? How much pressure and section passes do you usually do in a 2x2 area?
One more i promise, I live in Arizona and it gets hot here. which wax or sealant will last the longest? I heard you talk about collinite 845 and Nu finish, but out of the two, which would you use??
New to rotarys. I buff my own cars and trucks with a Griots DA. New to the whole wool pads and Gel coat thing. TIA


----------



## oomfh

Jomax said:


> Ordered a Gallon of Gel compound, Gallon of Ultra cutting creme, and a gallon of Ultra Polish. Overkill, yes, but the money i saved buying more was well worth it.


Ditto


----------



## LifeIsGood

Maine Sail,

Thank you for an outstanding post to the forum that MANY people have benefited from. I just purchased a used (2007) Mariah runabout that has some chaulking of the gelcoat and have been preparing for a reconditioning based primarily on your post. I have purchased the polisher, compound, polish and wax, microfiber rags but still need to purchase the compounding pad and polishing pads. 
The polisher is a 7" with a hook and loop back plate but when I ordered the 3M 05711 compounding pad, I found it was a 9" and the 3M 5725 polishing pads were 8". I see the Makita polisher is also a 7". Did you change out the backplate? I suspect the 8" polishing pad with the hook and loop backing would work well on the 7" backplate but what about the 9" compounding pad (that does not have the hook and loop backing)?

Please advise on how you used the 05711 and 05725 pads with your Makita 7" polisher. First time user of a polisher so please forgive the simple question....

LifeIsGood


----------



## LifeIsGood

Hey Folks,
Can anyone offer advice on the question above? Hoping to get started today.

Thanks,
LifeIsGood


----------



## Maine Sail

LifeIsGood said:


> Hey Folks,
> Can anyone offer advice on the question above? Hoping to get started today.
> 
> Thanks,
> LifeIsGood


I use the 3M 05717

High Speed Rotary Polisher Backing Plates, circular polisher backing plates, high speed buffer backing plate, dewalt backing plate, makita backing

For my 3M double sided pads I use the double sided pad adapter in the link above....


----------



## Jomax

First, I want to thank you for the amazing write up you created on how to polish gel coat. One thing i wanted to ask you about it. On the compounding step, when you explain on what speeds, you say to start on 600rpm, then move it to 1000rpm for 35-40 sec, then 2kplus but under 3k. my question is how long do you run it on 2k plus and how much pressure for all the steps? Do you usually do 1 section pass on 600rpm, then 4 section passes on 1000rpmm, then the final section pass on 2k plus? thanks


----------



## probwhite

MaineSail - You da man. Just bought a boat and was looking for some advice on the buffing/waxing process. I'm going to print this out, break out the wallet (ugh) and give it a whirl - pun intended. Once again, you're a wealth of info.


----------



## Maine Sail

Jomax said:


> First, I want to thank you for the amazing write up you created on how to polish gel coat. One thing i wanted to ask you about it. On the compounding step, when you explain on what speeds, you say to start on 600rpm, then move it to 1000rpm for 35-40 sec, then 2kplus but under 3k. my question is how long do you run it on 2k plus and how much pressure for all the steps? Do you usually do 1 section pass on 600rpm, then 4 section passes on 1000rpmm, then the final section pass on 2k plus? thanks


Good quality compounds utilize a "diminishing grit" starting slow keeps it heavy and removes oxidation. Speeding it up breaks it down finer and yields a higher shine. More speed breaks it down even more.

Let the machine do the work. You will need to feel out how much time at each speed on your own for your level of oxidation. Do a couple of test squares and then you'll know. Just don't keep the pad in one spot too long or let the hull get too hot under the pad. Beyond that you really can't mess much up.


----------



## josrulz

Maine Sail and all, I'm getting ready to compound and wax and have read this original post many times through--thanks Maine Sail! 

Quick question. Any tips for compounding right at the waterline? Our ablative paint is easy to pick up. And I'm concerned about putting tape over the bottom paint since we're not painting this year (not needed). 

Any suggestions?
Thanks!
-J


----------



## Maine Sail

josrulz said:


> Maine Sail and all, I'm getting ready to compound and wax and have read this original post many times through--thanks Maine Sail!
> 
> Quick question. Any tips for compounding right at the waterline? Our ablative paint is easy to pick up. And I'm concerned about putting tape over the bottom paint since we're not painting this year (not needed).
> 
> Any suggestions?
> Thanks!
> -J


Just tape it and it will be fine.. I do it all time time...


----------



## jimgo

Whoops - never mind! Just read the first sentence again - not inteded for painted hulls!


----------



## josrulz

Maine Sail said:


> Just tape it and it will be fine.. I do it all time time...


OK thanks Maine Sail. I'll give it a try. Cheers!


----------



## svalvasori

Followed the directions for the second year, great results again. This year I used the Presta Chroma as well. Thank you for the informative post!


----------



## rtawood

Shiny!


----------



## Tanley

Thanks Maine. 3 days, 6 Advil and a lot of trips up and down the ladder. Here's the result on 25 year old gel coat.


----------



## josrulz

Maine Sail,
This may have been covered elsewhere in this thread, and if so I apologize for the duplicate. Do you have any additional tips on compounding in nooks and crannies on deck and on the transom? Using the full size buffer on the hull makes sense, but I found it difficult to work around the name, stern ladder, etc., on the transom. And on deck, I'm guessing it will be even more difficult with handrails, stanchions, hardware, and nonskid to avoid. 

Do you compound these areas by hand? Use a smaller buffer? Other?

Thanks as always for your help!
-J


----------



## Maine Sail

josrulz said:


> Maine Sail,
> This may have been covered elsewhere in this thread, and if so I apologize for the duplicate. Do you have any additional tips on compounding in nooks and crannies on deck and on the transom? Using the full size buffer on the hull makes sense, but I found it difficult to work around the name, stern ladder, etc., on the transom. And on deck, I'm guessing it will be even more difficult with handrails, stanchions, hardware, and nonskid to avoid.
> 
> Do you compound these areas by hand? Use a smaller buffer? Other?
> 
> Thanks as always for your help!
> -J


Smaller dia wheel, by hand and with lots of tape on things you don't want polished....


----------



## josrulz

Maine Sail said:


> Smaller dia wheel, by hand and with lots of tape on things you don't want polished....


Thanks--I should have known there would be no magical answer! But I do think a smaller diameter wheel would really come in handy. I'll look into it.


----------



## Maine Sail

Autogeek.com is your friend... 

BTW restoring a CD-36 today/tomorrow. I tried my beautiful newer "higher power" RO unit yesterday and as I have said all along, based on my old Porter Cable, they won't do squat on oxidized gelcoat, even the most powerful one you can buy....... The trusty 9227C Makita still kicks butt.


----------



## T37Chef

So as mentioned I tried something new this year...I hired a pro 

At first I purchased about $200 of materials (pads, compounds, finesse, etc etc etc) but with a looong list of things to do this Spring I bit the bullet and asked a professional in the yard for an estimate, it was $400. So I hired them and returned my $200 of materials, so one could say it only cost me $200 to have a pro do it? 

I was there when they did it so I could pick up some tips. As usual, its all about technique and the proper tools which mirror pretty much what Maine Sail details in his "how to". I was very pleased with the work they did, but I admit it doesn't look as good as some of these post of DIY. Maybe next year when I have a little less to do 

Cheers


----------



## Tanley

josrulz said:


> Using the full size buffer on the hull makes sense, but I found it difficult to work around the name, stern ladder, etc., on the transom. And on deck, I'm guessing it will be even more difficult with handrails, stanchions, hardware, and nonskid to avoid.
> 
> Do you compound these areas by hand? Use a smaller buffer? Other?
> 
> Thanks as always for your help!
> -J


Some places to start your search

Rotary Flexible Backing Plate, lake country rotary backing plates, makita 9227 backing plate, dewalt 849 backing plate, circular backing plate

Spot Buff Pads


----------



## josrulz

Well, I completed my first job that included compounding, or perhaps rather polishing, in this case. I've waxed many times. I found that I REALLY got the hang of the buffer probably about halfway through the second side of the boat. I used the Presta Cutting Creme, then Fleetwax. The results might not be as good as is possible, but I'd say they're pretty good. I heard a woman walk by with a child say "See how shiny that boat is? You can see that man in the reflection." I'll take it.

Thanks Maine Sail!

The cloudiness towards the right of the pic is just shadow. 









Most of the "patchiness" you see below is actually the appearance of the neighboring boat.


----------



## josrulz

Tanley said:


> Some places to start your search
> 
> Rotary Flexible Backing Plate, lake country rotary backing plates, makita 9227 backing plate, dewalt 849 backing plate, circular backing plate
> 
> Spot Buff Pads


Thanks! I'll need these if I'm going to do the deck/cockpit.


----------



## chucklesR

T37Chef said:


> So as mentioned I tried something new this year...I hired a pro
> 
> I bit the bullet and asked a professional in the yard for an estimate, it was $400.
> 
> Cheers


where, who, what, really?????
I spent 100 just on frigging compound, and mine looks like what I'm seeing here.
I'll pony up the bucks next time and get a good foundation.


----------



## josrulz

T37Chef said:


> So as mentioned I tried something new this year...I hired a pro
> 
> At first I purchased about $200 of materials (pads, compounds, finesse, etc etc etc) but with a looong list of things to do this Spring I bit the bullet and asked a professional in the yard for an estimate, it was $400. So I hired them and returned my $200 of materials, so one could say it only cost me $200 to have a pro do it?
> 
> I was there when they did it so I could pick up some tips. As usual, its all about technique and the proper tools which mirror pretty much what Maine Sail details in his "how to". I was very pleased with the work they did, but I admit it doesn't look as good as some of these post of DIY. Maybe next year when I have a little less to do
> 
> Cheers


T37Chef, I have been in the "same boat" often over the years. In our case, the yard charges roughly $340. And sometimes I've gone that route. Sometimes I've done it myself (though I've never compounded/polished until this year). But a few things about our situation pushed me to do this myself this time.

First, the yard uses 3M Cleaner Wax (I've known this all along). So it looks just fine but doesn't last the season. I've used Fleetwax always. When I washed the boat this spring, the water still beaded up from my wax job last spring.

Second, I had most of the "stuff" already, which I've been buying here and there over the last few years. So yeah, I still spent $250 on supplies, but it was over 3-4 years.

Third, to get the hull both compounded properly and waxed by someone who uses Fleetwax (or similar), it would cost more like $650 based on estimates I got.

Fourth, once I knew the boat was ready to splash, I couldn't get a launch date for like 7-8 days. So I had the time to do it without delaying launch.

Anyway, it was a lot of work, but I saved a lot of dough for the same job. Maybe the job by the pros using the right products would've been better, but maybe not. And I know it's better than the yard's cleaner wax job.

Will I do it again next year? Maybe. We'll see.
-J


----------



## hillenme

I have never done this before and followed Mainsailes tips just about to a T. It looks incredible - a wet, mirror-like finish on the whole boat. It looked like a dirty piece of chalk when I started out. With anything, I think the best advice was regarding the correct tools and products for this job. The guy two stalls down from me was admiring my work and told me he was going to do the same thing - with one of those Ryobi, single speed things with a terrycloth bonnet on it. I'm glad I will have launched by the time he tries that. Thanks Maine!


----------



## T37Chef

chucklesR said:


> where, who, what, really?????
> I spent 100 just on frigging compound, and mine looks like what I'm seeing here.
> I'll pony up the bucks next time and get a good foundation.


Chuckles,

The person I hired is Mike Collinson, "Top Notch" Mobile Marine 443-983-3206 or [email protected] gmail.com. He is a young guy whom I think is trying to start up a business of his own. He used to work at Pleasure Cove Marina (where Cheshire Crab is located). I observed him and his crew do a 45' Motor Yacht before I spoke with him, they did a great job on his so I got the estimate on the spot. They attached that thing like a swam of bees.

He did my boat by himself. He first cleaned it, then used 3M Compound, a commercial grade of Finesse II, and followed up with wax (I cant remember what wax he used?). He spent the better part of the day there while I did final engine hook up etc etc.

All in all, it was worth it this year. It doesn't match the results some are getting with Maine Sails how to, but time was not in my favor this year 

Any shine I can get on a 30+ year hull I'll take it. The bad patch work done where the colors don't match is only notable when on land, cant tell when its in the water so I'm happy. Hey my hull looks better than a lot of others. Now onto the teak!


----------



## josrulz

T37Chef said:


> He first cleaned it, then used 3M Compound, a commercial grade of Finesse II, and followed up with wax (I cant remember what wax he used?).


That sounds like a lot more bang for your buck than what I was looking at from the yard.


----------



## Shredrick McGnarlson

Is the process for non skid the same minus the wax. i.e. clean, compound, cutting creme, then Woody's Wax instead of collinite? Can non skid be compounded? 

Thanks,

first timer


----------



## pnewsom

MainSail, thanks for all the great advice. I have an old Bluenose Sloop that could use a good polish, so I'll put your tips to work!
Peter


----------



## Gregrosine

We have a 35 foot sailboat. How much compound and wax will we need?


----------



## aj19

Very Good! can you give any suggestions for removing year old motor oil spots on fiberglass?


----------



## Gregrosine

Results look great. This is our first year preparing for a splash. with a 35 foot boat how much compound and wax will we need?


----------



## Maine Sail

Gregrosine said:


> Results look great. This is our first year preparing for a splash. with a 35 foot boat how much compound and wax will we need?


32oz bottles will leave you with some extra. Could be done with 16oz....


----------



## oomfh

Gregrosine said:


> Results look great. This is our first year preparing for a splash. with a 35 foot boat how much compound and wax will we need?


I found the gallon containers so economical, I didn't even pull out a calculator. I'm not sure if the instructions talk about storage, but I keep the leftovers in a place where they won't freeze.

Good luck!


----------



## This Old Sailboat

Maine Sail,

I accidentally let my compounding pad catch on some deck hardware a couple of times. It apparently tore some of the loops off the back and now the pad won't stick well to the buffer anymore. Do you have a trick for fixing the pad or do I need to get a new pad? It's nearly new, so I hate to toss it already.

I know, it's my own fault, trying too get to close to the hardware but I'm still getting a feel for it


----------



## This Old Sailboat

So here's what works best so far.

I've also been using 3M sanding disks in 600, 1000, and 1500 grit. The loop fabric on the 1000 grit disks comes off very easily, even by itself after some use. I washed one and spread it flat to dry, then glued it right on the back of the compounding pad with 3M Super 77 spread adhesive and let it dry completely. About 75% of it is still attached after doing about 16' of hull, so not bad!

The morale of the story is still don't get too close to any perpendicular edges while buffing.


----------



## davisr

Hey Maine,

Appreciate the tips. Used the Makita buffer and the Presta products you recommended. Took me a while to find my groove with the buffer. The 40 year old gel coat on my boat appears to have come back to life. Here's a picture of my hull after the first step - compounding - before I moved on to the polishing and waxing.

Roscoe
Ericson 25, Oystercatcher
Charleston, SC

Ericson 25, Oystercatcher: Introduction


----------



## JIvories

Wondering if you all could help. I have an S2 9.2A from 1984. I really messed up my hull I'm afraid. There were oxidized sections, so following MaineSail's recommendations, I wet sanded the hull with 800 grit, went lightly xcept on a few stained spots. Then rinsed. Then tried compound with Presta and wool pad on polisher. I couldn't get shine. It remained chaulky looking. Then, running short on time, went to polish phase, but didn't change much. I had to wax because boat was going in water (had to be out of yard). So this season have to live with dull but protected gelcoat. Just wondering where I'm going wrong: should I not have rinsed after wet sanding? Am I using too much compound? I didn't put more on than in MaineSail's directions. But After letting it dry to haze, it just wouldn't clear up and shine, and same with polish. Used microfiber rags. Frustrating because most of hull looked pretty good before, if not great. Now it looks clean but dull and chaulky. Hoping I can get shine back, tho it'll have to be next season!


----------



## overbored

sounds like you skipped a few steps. if the hull had shine then you did not need to sand. if you sand then you need to sand with finer and finer paper to about 1500 grit. then you said you used Presta. which one there are several types of Presta compound and again you use the coarse one then the medium and then the fine before you wax. if you want it right then you can not skip any steps. go back and reread his instructions and you will see the steps you skipped.


----------



## JIvories

Thanks Overbored. Need much more time and patience I think, to go gradually through the steps. I wish I had had more time. Although apparently if you wash and wax regularly, no need to sand or compound every time.


----------



## TakeFive

overbored said:


> sounds like you skipped a few steps. if the hull had shine then you did not need to sand. if you sand then you need to sand with finer and finer paper to about 1500 grit. then you said you used Presta. which one there are several types of Presta compound and again you use the coarse one then the medium and then the fine before you wax. if you want it right then you can not skip any steps. go back and reread his instructions and you will see the steps you skipped.


If you only have mild oxidation, "Presta Cutting Cream" can get you there in one step. It starts as a coarse grit, but becomes finer as you work it. It's really a time saver if your boat isn't too bad. Maine Sail mentions this in his instructions.


----------



## travlin-easy

Sure glad I don't have to do any of that hard labor stuff anymore. I switched to Poli-Glow and love this stuff. Besides, I'm old. 

Gary


----------



## jimsair

Hi Halekai, I know you probably get bombarded with questions, but if you have a minute, I'd love to get your thoughts. 

I'm going to recondition the hull and deck of my 2001 J/105. The hull is my main area of interest. I have a quality Hitachi polisher that has served me well for many years, and I'm going to go all out and use the products you recommended as the best. Specifically:

On and Off
Presta Gel Compound
Presta Utra cutting Creme
Presta Ultra Polish (formerly known as Chroma 1500)
Collinite #885 fleet wax

I have a fair amount of oxidizing on the hull and deck. Should I start with the Presta Gel Compound and #05711 pad and follow with the Ultra Cutting Creme and #05713 pad, or should I just start with the UCC and 05713 pad?

Also, how much compound and polish should I buy to do a J/105? I was thinking of getting a gallon of compound and two quarts of Chroma 1500.


Thank you for your help,

Jim


----------



## Maine Sail

jimsair said:


> Hi Halekai, I know you probably get bombarded with questions, but if you have a minute, I'd love to get your thoughts.
> 
> I'm going to recondition the hull and deck of my 2001 J/105. The hull is my main area of interest. I have a quality Hitachi polisher that has served me well for many years, and I'm going to go all out and use the products you recommended as the best. Specifically:
> 
> On and Off
> Presta Gel Compound
> Presta Utra cutting Creme
> Presta Ultra Polish (formerly known as Chroma 1500)
> Collinite #885 fleet wax
> 
> I have a fair amount of oxidizing on the hull and deck. Should I start with the Presta Gel Compound and #05711 pad and follow with the Ultra Cutting Creme and #05713 pad, or should I just start with the UCC and 05713 pad?
> 
> Also, how much compound and polish should I buy to do a J/105? I was thinking of getting a gallon of compound and two quarts of Chroma 1500.
> 
> Thank you for your help,
> 
> Jim


Do some tests areas.

*Ultra Cutting Creme with yellow wool*

if that does not cut it

*Gelcoat Compound with yellow wool*

If that does not cut it

*Gelcoat Compound with white wool*


----------



## jimsair

Maine Sail said:


> Do some tests areas.
> 
> *Ultra Cutting Creme with yellow wool*
> 
> if that does not cut it
> 
> *Gelcoat Compound with yellow wool*
> 
> If that does not cut it
> 
> *Gelcoat Compound with white wool*


Thank you for your reply. If I may Ask one more question....... If I only compound with Gelcoat compound and white wool, can I then go straight to Chroma 1500 with yellow wool? Will the Chroma remove the swirls from the heavy compound or do I need to use the UCC as an intermediate step?

And lastly, will the Chroma 1500 work well with the yellow wool or should I also apply it with a less abrasive pad? Sorry for all the questions.... I just want to do it right!

Thanks'

Jim


----------



## CapnRed

Excellent thread. I'm getting ready to start a gelcoat restoration project on my Merit 25. I have a quick question. I am using a Milwaukee 5540 polisher, which is 7". Can anyone recommend some good quality 7" wool compounding and polishing pads? 3M doesn't make 7" versions of the pads recommended in the OP. Looking around online it seems that 9" is much more common. The 7" pads I've come across look fairly cheap.


----------



## engineer_sailor

I followed MaineSail's instructions on our Cat 27 and the results were great. Ultra Cutting Creme was hard to track down but worked amazingly in the two step cutting creme + fleet wax. I think a light round of compounding might have helped in some spots. We spring for the Makita polisher which was worth every penny as are the 3M pads.


----------



## Skipper Jer

CapnRed said:


> Excellent thread. I'm getting ready to start a gelcoat restoration project on my Merit 25. I have a quick question. I am using a Milwaukee 5540 polisher, which is 7". Can anyone recommend some good quality 7" wool compounding and polishing pads? 3M doesn't make 7" versions of the pads recommended in the OP. Looking around online it seems that 9" is much more common. The 7" pads I've come across look fairly cheap.


I bought my pads at NAPA auto store. The pads are made by SM Arnold. SM Arnold online catalog list several types of buffing and polishing pads with diameters of 7.5 inches. I have no complaints of the results using these pads for polishing and waxing my boat.

Stumbled across this on line place that carries SM Arnold and a host of other pads and stuff. 
http://www.diycleaning.com/
No connection to NAPA or SM Arnold or diycleaning.


----------



## dsmauney

I have a question between the polishing step with 3M Finesse It and the Fleet wax waxing stage. If I don't take the polishing to dry then that leaves a residue of Finesse it which when it drys is a bear to wash off. What do I need to do to get rid of the Finesse it residue before I wax the boat. Thanks

Good Winds
DaveM


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## MarkSF

I just got a good deal on the Presta products, and 3M buffing/polishing pads, from National Tool Warehouse. If you sign up for e-mail updates, you get free shipping over $100.

Going to try the buffing & polishing process this weekend. I've already wet sanded to 800 grit. Maybe one more sanding step at 1000, before I start with the gel coat compound. Does anyone know if it cuts through 800 grit scratches, or do I really need to sand with 1000?


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## MikeK2B

This is awesome stuff. 

I am going to detail my '83 Pearson with a moderately oxidized hull. The PO babied her so there is still a shine; but, it will benefit from a Maine Sail detail. 

I'm thinking two passes of Presta Ultra Cutting Creme followed by the 885 Fleetwax (1 coat this fall, 1 coat in the spring before launch). 

The two passes of Presta Ultra Cutting is based on one of the previous posts. After I do those I'll evaluate and see if Chroma 1500 is needed. 

My question: what pads should I use? I'd like to use Presta brand since I'm ordering anyway - just can't seem to find the correct equivalent. If I was using 3M it seems I should use the yellow wool for the Ultra Cutting Creme. 

Any input? Thanks in advance. 

Mike
Bristol, RI


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## Bruce3966

Maine Sail, if my Finesse II step is not shiny even after wiping down the hull with denatured alcohol, what did I do wrong?

Wouldn't you think that even if you didn't do the Finesse step that using Collinite wax after the compounding stage your hull would be pretty shiny? I think I might have screwed up and used 3M Restorer & Wax instead of straight 3M compound--or not?


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## Maine Sail

Bruce3966 said:


> Maine Sail, if my Finesse II step is not shiny even after wiping down the hull with denatured alcohol, what did I do wrong?
> 
> Wouldn't you think that even if you didn't do the Finesse step that using Collinite wax after the compounding stage your hull would be pretty shiny? I think I might have screwed up and used 3M Restorer & Wax instead of straight 3M compound--or not?


Without knowing exactly what you did, with details, it is impossible to say where it went bad. I can say that many hundreds of folks have used these instructions and had stunning results..


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## okiedokie

First of all. Thank you for the detailed instructions. I am attempting to restore the oxidized gel coat on a boat that is new to me earlier this year.

I tried a couple of test spots today with mixed results. The good news is that there is a big improvement for sure. The bad news is that I didn't get the results I was after. I am sure I'm not doing something right...

I got all the Presta products (Gel coat compound, UCC, Chroma Ultra Finish) and 3M wool pads, and a Flex PE14-2-150. Before trying on my boat I tested the UCC and Chroma on the hood of my neglected 1997 Jeep with stellar results. I used Lake Country CCS 3" foam pads and the hood came out looking like a mirror on my first try.

On the boat I taped off an area and first did gel coat compound with the white wool 05711 on about 4 speed (1500 RPM). I did about 3 passes each of up/down and side/side. I wiped clean and switched to UCC and yellow wool 05713 and did the same and slowed down to about 3 speed (1200 RPM) for the final pass or two. At this point things were looking nice an shiny from right in front, but from the angle opposite the light I could see swirls and what looks like side-to-side and up/down lines (halogen work lights since I am indoors). From behind the light it actually looks great. I thought I was making progress and the Chroma Ultra Polish would clean things up. I tried the Chroma with the 3M 05733 Ultrafine foam polishing pad and it did not turn out right. It was very dull and very difficult to remove the product. I ended up going back over the area with UCC and yellow wool again it came back the way it was before and I stopped there.

What could I have done wrong with the Chroma? Like I said, I tried it on the car hood and it worked beautifully.

I have attached a before pic, after pic good angle, after pic bad angle, and another after pic good angle after I did the next area.


Any thought?


----------



## GregW1309

Best description of hull care anywhere!


----------



## josrulz

Hi Maine Sail and others,
I know this thread has been around for a long time, but with so much great information, I think my question is appropriate here. 

With what I learned in this original post, I've compounded, polished, and waxed the hull of our boat numerous times. I own the Dewalt buffer and several other materials from this very informative post/thread, and I have found that the methods have worked quite well on the hull (thank you Maine Sail).

On that note, this post mostly covers this type of work on the hull. So...I was wondering if anyone have any tips for compounding/polishing in the cockpit, cabin sides, and other tighter areas where a large wool buffer pad might just be too big to use? While there are a few spot I might be able to use something that large, in most areas there's stuff in the way -- portlight/window frames, navigation instruments, and pretty much everything but the kitchen sink. 

Is there a smaller "mini buffer" that works? A different attachment for my full size buffer? Other? Do you just do it by hand? 

Waxing I do by hand anyway, so that's no big deal, but my cockpit really could use compounding and polishing phases first, and I'm interested in any recommendations on how to accomplish that effectively. 

Thanks as always!
-J


----------



## wink

I'm tackling the decks on my 18.5" Cape Dory Typhoon and really need something small to get into those tight spots- also not looking to remove and re-bed deck hardware. 

Does anyone have any recommendation on a polishing tool that would accommodate at 3" hook and loop backing plate? I would still like to you use the 3M products and this seems like the way to go for a small job.

Thanks!


----------



## overbored

mothers power ball on battery drill motor works well


----------



## overbored

this is the Flex machine I have been thinking about getting Chemical Guys - Flex PE8 Kompakt Rotary Polisher With Extra Backing Plate


----------



## wink

That looks like a great option! Thanks overbored.


----------



## Tim R.

Just finished up spring cabin top polishing. Used my Makita buffer with a white wool 3M compounding pad and Presta Gelcoat compoumd.Has not been done since spring of 2014. Bahamas last winter(2015) really did a job on the gel coat. Should be good to go for another year. Topsides will be a quick polish with some Presta Chroma and a blue pad. Then 2 coats of Collonite wax.


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## TakeFive

Tim R. said:


> Just finished up spring cabin top polishing. Used my Makita buffer with a white wool 3M compounding pad and Presta Gelcoat compoumd.Has not been done since spring of 2014. Bahamas last winter(2015) really did a job on the gel coat. Should be good to go for another year. Topsides will be a quick polish with some Presta Chroma and a blue pad. Then 2 coats of Collonite wax.


Still living in a bubble, I see! lol


----------



## MarkSF

I've got two buffers : The Makita 9227C, and a Porter Cable random-orbit one. While the Makita is great for doing large, uninterrupted areas of gelcoat like topsides, I found the Porter Cable easier to handle in more complex areas like the cockpit and top of the cabin. Maybe that's partly because I have a smaller boat, a 31-footer.

I bought this set of foam pads for the Porter Cable in 5" diameter, from Griots Garage :

5" Orbital Conversion Kit - Griot's Garage

So these are even smaller than the standard 6" ones that come with the buffer. It does not cut through oxidisation as quickly as the Makita, but the final results were most acceptable. Plus, I've polished two cars with them since.


----------



## JIvories

I'm going to be compound/polishing the deck on my S2 soon. Does anyone have tips for polishing non-skid?
Are wool pads even worth trying, or some kind of brush?

Another question while I'm at it: the birds did some nasty feasting on my deck, and I could not get it all out in the Fall.
Someone suggested bleach/water 50/50. Or should I use On/Off or something like that?

thanks for any ideas.


----------



## josrulz

MarkSF said:


> I've got two buffers : The Makita 9227C, and a Porter Cable random-orbit one. While the Makita is great for doing large, uninterrupted areas of gelcoat like topsides, I found the Porter Cable easier to handle in more complex areas like the cockpit and top of the cabin. Maybe that's partly because I have a smaller boat, a 31-footer.
> 
> I bought this set of foam pads for the Porter Cable in 5" diameter, from Griots Garage :
> 
> 5" Orbital Conversion Kit - Griot's Garage
> 
> So these are even smaller than the standard 6" ones that come with the buffer. It does not cut through oxidisation as quickly as the Makita, but the final results were most acceptable. Plus, I've polished two cars with them since.


Thanks MarkSF. Something along those lines is what I'm thinking. I realize that I'll need to some areas by hand, but there are plenty of cockpit sections and cabin side areas that could use a buffer -- just not a 9" pad like on the hull.
Cheers,
J


----------



## SloopJonB

I'm about to start polishing the deck of my boat and I'd really appreciate some advice about foam buffer pads.

I've read this thread several times and it doesn't answer what follows.

I haven't figured out yet how far down I need to go in grit to start but I suspect 800 then 1000 wet paper will do - 1000 only, if I'm lucky. Then I'll use a white wool pad for the coarse compound. (I have an 8" Snap-On VS sander polisher for this as well as a cheapy 6" VS R/O sander polisher)

After that I have a whole pile of different foam pads I can choose from - I got one of those 20 gallon Rubbermaid tubs full of various hardness foam disks and Velcro pads for next to nothing at a kind of liquidation store a couple of years ago. I have them in sizes to fit both my machines.

I have thick red, white & blue foam disks (like cheese wheels) of differing stiffness, thinner, flat grey waffle pattern foam and thinner, curved grey waffle pattern foam (semi-circular face).

What I need is advice on is which foam to use with which compound/polish/wax.

Are the harder foams for the coarser levels or vice versa?

Have I provided enough info to make any sort of choice?


----------



## Maine Sail

Unless you are buying professional grade foal pads from the likes of Lake Country, Meguiars etc. don't count on the colors identifying anything with any level of "cut" accuracy. Cheapo foam pads are all over the place and the color is often non-specific. 

I stick with Lake Country CCS pads when working with Imron or Awlcraft 2000, via RO machine (Flex 3401 VRG). For gelcoat I use orbital and wool pads. The 3M fam pads used to hold up better but they really are quite lousy these days and once you use the CCS the waffle pads seem so stone age.. 

I'm not a big fan of foam on gelcoat and much prefer white wool then yellow wool or cutting wool and finishing wool. 

Unless you have a Flex RO (or comparable), the RO's are pretty poorly suited for buffing gelcoat. I own a few RO machines, a Griot's RO, a Porter Cable RO & a Flex 3401.. There is no comparison between the Porter Cable / Griot's level and the Flex. The Snap-On orbital polisher, if it's the Blue Point variable 600 RPM to 3000 RPM, is almost a direct knock off of the Makita, so stick with that and you'll be good.


----------



## SloopJonB

Thanks Maine. I've determined I have to start with 800, then 1200 then on to the compounds. I'm using a pro grade white wool wheel for the coarse cutting compound and a different one for the fine compound - both on the Snap-On. 

My basic question about the foam wheels is;

Are the harder foams for coarser compounds and the softer foams for finer finishing like polishing wax or vice versa?


----------



## MooGroc

overbored said:


> this is the Flex machine I have been thinking about getting Chemical Guys - Flex PE8 Kompakt Rotary Polisher With Extra Backing Plate


Has anybody tried using this? It looks like the perfect tool to compound, polish and wax my very neglected cabin and cockpit areas. My large Makita 9227C is great for the topsides, but not practical for the tight curves an spaces on deck.


----------



## miatapaul

SloopJonB said:


> Thanks Maine. I've determined I have to start with 800, then 1200 then on to the compounds. I'm using a pro grade white wool wheel for the coarse cutting compound and a different one for the fine compound - both on the Snap-On.
> 
> My basic question about the foam wheels is;
> 
> Are the harder foams for coarser compounds and the softer foams for finer finishing like polishing wax or vice versa?


Generally yes, but it is hard to tell from the feel. It also has to do with the size of the pores and other things. It gets quite complicated, but with the "good pads" I find there is very little difference between the "cutting" and the "finishing" foam pads. I bought a kit of 6 different Lake County pads, and if I had it to do over again I would just get a cutting pad and finishing pad, I think the between are only useful if you are working on very good condition show cars. Not something I do, but I do like my daily driver to look good, and my boat will be painted so there won't be too much buffing on it, and it won't be for a couple of seasons before I get to that.



MY36 said:


> Has anybody tried using this? It looks like the perfect tool to compound, polish and wax my very neglected cabin and cockpit areas. My large Makita 9227C is great for the topsides, but not practical for the tight curves an spaces on deck.


Well Flex it as good as it gets, but it would only be useful for very small sections, I would be tempted to just do it by hand in those areas unless you have other uses. Also I am not sure they offer wool pads for it and that is the best for gel coat. I would consider the same backing plate for your Makita:

Chemical Guys - TORQ R5 Rotary Red Backing Plate with Hyper Flex Technology (3 inch)


----------



## bgary

Maine Sail said:


> Do some tests areas.
> *Ultra Cutting Creme with yellow wool*
> if that does not cut it
> *Gelcoat Compound with yellow wool*
> If that does not cut it
> *Gelcoat Compound with white wool*


I'm starting small, looking to bring back the blue gelcoat sheer-stripe on my 32-footer.

Boat is in the water, will be doing this by hand at the dock. We're talking less than 20 square feet of surface.

I know there is a lot of info in this thread about the best pads to use with a buffer.... are there recommendations about pads to use without a buffer? Would a simple sponge, or a soft-cotton diaper be viable or are there better approaches?

Plan B might be to use a Meguiars "ball" in a cordless, but... would kinda rather do this by hand if I can.

Thanks!


----------



## Scotty C-M

I've used diaper (or cotton similar) on my boat for touch-ups. You should get a very nice job for such a small area. Power tools make it easier and probably will giive you a deeper shine, but for the stripe, you'll get some good results. Depends on your standards, I guess.


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## TakeFive

For a chalky boot stripe near the waterline with boat in the water I would start with wet sandpaper, 2000-4000 grit. With this, the copious water becomes your friend, not your enemy.


----------



## wink

After sanding the bottom paint on my hull yesterday, I found this on my decks this morning - the blue dust mixed with morning dew stained my freshly refinished decks. These decks were flawless and bright white. In fact, I just finished wet-sanding, compounding, polishing and waxing a few days ago - following Maine Sail's detailed instructions to the t. They came out flawless and now seem destroyed. I've tried soap and water, simple green and finally roll off. I'm not sure what to do and how to get this off. Any help would be very appreciated.







Before:


----------



## JimsCAL

It must in the wax. You probably will have to strip the wax and then reapply it. The trick may be to do that and not remove the wax from the topsides (assuming those are also done).


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## TakeFive

I know that this is not helpful after-the-fact, but you'll probably sand your bottom again someday, so my advice will apply to next time: A vacuum sander would likely have prevented this issue, as well as being better for the environment and your lungs. Most marinas require them, and some states require them by law. It helps prevent toxic contamination of the soil and groundwater.

You can rent a vacuum sander, or rig your own. I use a $12 palm sander from Harborfreight with a vacuum port, interfaced to a Shop Vac with fine filter bag. All the bad stuff gets pulled into the bucket.


----------



## travlin-easy

Or, you can do it the easy way using a dry wall sanding screen and a bucket of water and wet sand the bottom in no time at all. The sanding screens do an incredible job, with minimal mess - just a bucket of discolored water.  And, you can sand the entire bottom in a fraction of the time it takes with a heavy-duty vacuum sander, and with no back ache from having to stoop beneath the hull because the sanding screens are attached to a long pole.

All the best,

Gary


----------



## TakeFive

travlineasy said:


> Or, you can do it the easy way using a dry wall sanding screen and a bucket of water and wet sand the bottom in no time at all.


I like the idea, it sounds easier. But I'm not sure it's environmentally compliant in all areas. One should check the marina's, state's, and municipality's regulations first.


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## travlin-easy

TakeFive said:


> I like the idea, it sounds easier. But I'm not sure it's environmentally compliant in all areas. One should check the marina's, state's, and municipality's regulations first.


We actually did that, and could find nothing at all on the subject. The marina said they were quite happy with the process because sanding dust wasn't blowing on other boats. I was amazed at how smooth the screen sanded bottom came out, too.

Gary


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## Minnewaska

I would think there are environmental issues associated with leaving paint on the ground that could be washed into the water. I know it's where ablative ends up anyway, but that argument has never sold the environmental folks. They would prefer we not use copper based paint at all.

On the other hand, our marina would be more inclined to give you a hard time, just to make it easier to hire them to do it. Vacuum sanders are mandatory here.


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## aa3jy

Minnewaska said:


> On the other hand, our marina would be more inclined to give you a hard time, just to make it easier to hire them to do it. Vacuum sanders are mandatory here.


As are all Green Compliant Marinas in Md.

https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.gov/files/migrated/greening/links/upload/greenmarina.pdf


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## siddfynch

Hi All,

First post here. I have a heavily oxidized fiberglass hull and came across this excellent thread when researching wet sanding. But I have run into something unexpected and decided to post here to make sure I'm not about to do more harm than good. Simply, when I go to wet sand the hull by hand, I see a filmy residue in the color of the hull (white) or stripe (blue). Am I correct in thinking that that I should see no colored residue? And if I am seeing it, does this mean I'm into the paint? This would surprise me as the boat is not really run down otherwise, but then again I obviously don't know much about gel coat.

The boat: 1996 Seasport, white hull with a blue stripe below the rub rail and another just above the bottom paint. The top stripe is especially chalky looking and oxidized, much more so than when I bought it 6 years ago. 

My plan was:
1) Wash boat
2) wet sand with fine grit by hand
3) rubbing compound (cheap orbital buffer/polisher)
4) wax.

However, when I started Step 2 with 1000 grit sandpaper, I immediately had blue on the paper when sanding the lower stripe, and wet when sanding the main hull. I can't find any posts about this when searching boat sanding. Is this normal on a gel coated boat?


----------



## overbored

I would recommend that you start with a gelcoat compound first. Presta gelcoat compound is expensive but it is the best and easiest to work with. use a rotary polisher and compounding pad like the Makita mentioned in the OP. an orbital does not work for compounding. if the compounding does not do the trick then go to wet sanding. wet sanding will remove more gelcoat then compounding. once the gelcoat is removed you can repair it but it is a long process so the less you take off the better. unless the boat was painted over the gelcoat then there is no paint on the surface. Gelcoat is the color layer that is applied in the mold and then the fiberglass is laid in the mold. so it is a molded in color coat. follow the OP from mainsail to the letter and don't use cheap tools or materials if you want good results.


----------



## siddfynch

Thanks for the advice on the process.

I didn't understand the implication of there being no paint on the surface layer/the colored gel coat being applied in the mold before the fiberglass.



overbored said:


> ..unless the boat was painted over the gelcoat then there is no paint on the surface. Gelcoat is the color layer that is applied in the mold and then the fiberglass is laid in the mold. so it is a molded in color coat...


If I sand with fine grit, I immediately get color on the sandpaper. Does this mean something is not right, or is this to be expected? Lots of searching, but I can find no reference to it in any gel coat sanding discussion.

The boat's finish is original.


----------



## TakeFive

If you sand with black wet/dry sandpaper you will always see white or blue color. You're removing some gelcoat, so you'll see its color.

As to whether this is a bad sign or not, it depends. You want to remove oxidized gelcoat, but not more than you have to. Whether you really need wet sanding or just a compounding depends on how badly oxidized the surface it. Even with compound you're removing some gelcoat, but less likely to notice it because you're not seeing it against a black background like sandpaper.

I have one boat (1985 vintage) that needed wet sanding to remove oxidation (followed, of course, by compound/polish/wax). Another boat (1998 vintage) only needed cutting cream, and sanding would have been overkill. It totally depends on the current condition of your gelcoat.


----------



## siddfynch

Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for. I just fine sanded a test accent strip and it looks terrific. Will compound the larger areas and sand the accents, and expect it to look much, much better.


----------



## siddfynch

Follow up to my post from a week ago: I have followed the instructions for one side of the boat and am delighted at how well it has come out! The terrible oxidation that came on in the last couple years is gone, and indeed the coloration on this 20-year old boat looks new. Have invested about $300 into it so far and am just really pleased with the turnaround. Here's a quick summary of my steps and products, in case it helps anyone else:

1) Cleaned boat using hot water, Simple Green, and a variety of cloths and brushes.

2) I wet sanded, starting with 1000 grit and moving up to 1500 grit. This part didn't take long. I used the Masterpro oval hand sander and velcro pads available from O'Reilly's auto. 4 pads per grit, each side. Cost = around $30 total. This step made a big improvement, but left some of the original, varied oxidation.

3) I ordered the Makita polisher 9227C ($179 from Amazon) and the 3M compounding (#05711, $30 from Amazon) and polishing (#05713, $32 from Napa) pads. I will come close to burning thru the compounding pad by the time I'm done. I used Meguiar's #49, the Heavy Oxidation Remover. It took two 16-oz bottles ~ $14 each). The first bottle was at least 7 years old, and seemed to work just fine. This step was another big improvement, removing the remaining oxidation and making the finish completely even. Total cost = ~ $275. 

* note - I did one section by hand while awaiting the Makita and was initially pleased with the results, then had to laugh after I saw what the Makita could do. 

4) I polished all areas using two new 16-oz bottles of 3M Finesse-It II ($32 per 16 oz, available at West Marine). Again, this step made a huge difference. This removed all swirl marks left by the compounding, as well as the more minor scratches and any unevenness left from the prior steps. Other products would have cost half the price, but I did not try them. 

5) Waxed with Trewax Boat Wax paste, (free, about 7 years old), using a round applicator pad and buffing with a 2x2 microfiber towel (~$5 each at West Marine). I chose this carnauba wax over a bottle of Interlux teflon-based wax (also about 7 years old) after reading about how carnauba has an almost endless shelf life. I had a 16-oz tin, and it was plenty enough for both sides.

A few tips to pass along:
- I taped off the bottom paint using painter's plastic. I left one section undone and regretted it once compounding residue dripped down and stained the bottom.
- I used Makita settings 1-4, which correspond to 600, 900, 1500, and 2100 rpms. For each section, I did a diminishing number of passes as I went up in rpms, roughly in a ratio of 4:3:2:1. It really only took about 8 passes at 600 rpms (then 6, 4, 2 at progressively higher) to do each section. 
- For each section, both compounding and polishing, I marked off about 2', and then strayed about 6" into the section just finished in case it helped with transition. Not sure if this was needed, but it came out looking completely even.
- Slinging was a real hassle and multiplied how much of the compounding and finishing paste I went thru. The best way I found to minimize this was to apply the paste directly onto the boat instead on the pad. I also found the reducing the amount of water I pit on the pad helped reduce slinging.
- I wiped all compounding and polishing paste off immediately after finishing section. This was much easier than waiting until after it had fully dried.

I hope this helps someone down the road. I'm really pleased with how it turned out, and grateful to the OP for the detailed instructions, part numbers, tips, etc.


----------



## Sera Bailey

Hi all. Iboats told me about this advice here and I am buying all the gear needed for my 1972 Aquarius 23 foot I am restoring. I have to repaint all the bottom after I strip it and also want to do the top but my question is, after I pain the lower half, do I just wax over it and I am good to go or do I need to do the cutting creme etc as well? I know the top needs every step due to oxidation etc, but what about the bottom section that will have fresh paint?

What do I do after I paint is the short version? Thanks so much


----------



## SloopJonB

First you need to clarify what you are talking about - the deck is called the deck, the hull above water is called the topsides and the hull below water is called the bottom.

If you are talking about the bottom you don't wax it, you paint it with antifouling paint.


----------



## overbored

Are you keeping the boat in the water or on the trailer when not sailing? If in the water then you will want to paint the bottom with antifouling paint below the water line. on the trailer you can wax the bottom. the sides of the boat, the topsides and the deck are gelcoat unless they have painted over the gelcoat. those are the areas that you can polish and wax.


----------



## Neilnt

Great thread, learned a ton. Thank you


----------



## tfh715

I've started the process and have finished wet sand and now on to compound. We are relettering and putting new numbers on her. I imagine this should be done after polish and before wax? Also I would think to clean the area with denatured alcohol?

I apologize if this has been covered but thought I'd save myself some time prior to reading 30 pages of posts =^)


----------



## TakeFive

tfh715 said:


> I've started the process and have finished wet sand and now on to compound. We are relettering and putting new numbers on her. I imagine this should be done after polish and before wax? Also I would think to clean the area with denatured alcohol?
> 
> I apologize if this has been covered but thought I'd save myself some time prior to reading 30 pages of posts =^)


For applying decals, I like the wet squeegee method because it allows repositioning the decal, and ensures you get all the air bubbles out with the squeegee. This method does not work if the surface is freshly waxed.


----------



## TakeFive

I'm going to the local auto finish place today to buy some more Presta Ultra Cutting Cream. I also need some more Collinite 885. This place said they don't have it because it's marketed exclusively to marine stores, but that their 476s is exactly the same thing, just packaged differently and marketed to auto shops. Looking over Collinite's website, it does look like the two do have the same balance of properties:

http://www.collinite.com/assets/Uploads/docs/autoprodselectorguide-16.pdf

http://www.collinite.com/assets/Uploads/docs/marineprodselectorguide-16.pdf

FAQs » Collinite

I think the 476s is sold in 9 oz and 18 oz cans, while 885 is sold in 12 oz cans.

I can't pull down their SDS online, but one blog says that the two SDSs are identical. However, that's not a guarantee that it's exactly the same because SDSs generally only disclose a range of ingredients, not the exact composition.

It auto place is only 5 minutes from my house, plus I'd like to do business with the little guy where possible. I also expect that automotive prices might be a little lower than West Marine, though I have not verified that.

Have any of you have side-by-side comparisons between these? (PDQ/Drew or MainSail?)


----------



## Gail Peterson

sailingdog said:


> *Do not wax or buff awlgrip. * Wash it. Don't scrub it either... if you scratch the surface, you're going to be screwed.


Okay, dumb question #100....How do you know if the hull has been to the awlgripped if you just got the boat and the owner prior to the one you purchased the boat from did the work?? It is spring and I want to know if I buff or not.....


----------



## Minnewaska

Gail Peterson said:


> Okay, dumb question #100....How do you know if the hull has been to the awlgripped if you just got the boat and the owner prior to the one you purchased the boat from did the work?? It is spring and I want to know if I buff or not.....


Pretty choppy sentence, but I think you're asking how to test whether you have a polyester paint like Awlgrip or an acrylic paint like Awlcraft.

Find a less obvious spot, such as under the transom. Dampen a contrasting colored rag (white for dark colors, dark for white colors) with acetone and rub on that spot. Polyester paint will not color the rag, acrylic will. Don't rub so hard as to take the paint off.


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## Gail Peterson

Minnewaska said:


> Pretty choppy sentence, but I think you're asking how to test whether you have a polyester paint like Awlgrip or an acrylic paint like Awlcraft.
> 
> Find a less obvious spot, such as under the transom. Dampen a contrasting colored rag (white for dark colors, dark for white colors) with acetone and rub on that spot. Polyester paint will not color the rag, acrylic will. Don't rub so hard as to take the paint off.


Thanks and sorry for the poor writing...my kitten was helping.


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## chef2sail

TakeFive said:


> I'm going to the local auto finish place today to buy some more Presta Ultra Cutting Cream. I also need some more Collinite 885. This place said they don't have it because it's marketed exclusively to marine stores, but that their 476s is exactly the same thing, just packaged differently and marketed to auto shops. Looking over Collinite's website, it does look like the two do have the same balance of properties:
> 
> http://www.collinite.com/assets/Uploads/docs/autoprodselectorguide-16.pdf
> 
> http://www.collinite.com/assets/Uploads/docs/marineprodselectorguide-16.pdf
> 
> FAQs » Collinite
> 
> I think the 476s is sold in 9 oz and 18 oz cans, while 885 is sold in 12 oz cans.
> 
> I can't pull down their SDS online, but one blog says that the two SDSs are identical. However, that's not a guarantee that it's exactly the same because SDSs generally only disclose a range of ingredients, not the exact composition.
> 
> It auto place is only 5 minutes from my house, plus I'd like to do business with the little guy where possible. I also expect that automotive prices might be a little lower than West Marine, though I have not verified that.
> 
> Have any of you have side-by-side comparisons between these? (PDQ/Drew or MainSail?)


Why over think it? Why mess with a proven thing
I just finished waxing with Collinite 885 and following Mainsails program as I do every time I wax

Jamestown, and auto wash have it at $20 with Defender ..no tax..free shipping at $18. How much cheaper will you find it..pennies? I keep a supply of this in my dock box. Also have found "deals" on it in bins at the Annapolis Boat Show" where I have gotten it for $10 a can. It's great stuff . I don't need a side by side comparison over a proven product. Why risk it...it's just wax.

https://www.autowashonline.com/default.aspx?page=item detail&itemcode=COL 885
https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=11650
Collinite No. 885 Fleetwax Paste


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## oomfh

I purchased a gallon of each of the Presta products in 2010. I use the Ultra Chroma each spring to restore the brilliant sheen. 
7 years later I find the product becoming watered down - spraying all over. Spoke with Presta this morning and they said the shelf life is only about two years. 
Long story short, I poured the product into a bucket - wiped it onto the hull with a wash cloth - the results are just as excellent as in 2010 - and without any splatter.


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## albrazzi

Tried my first full blown compound and polish today, we were both (me and the materials) too hot, baked by the sun and drying out too soon, so Im not sure I learned the things I needed to learn but it looks better than before by far. The body shop guys of old would tell you not to polish outside on a hot day. I'll haul earlier next year.


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## TakeFive

Be sure you have a spray bottle with lots of water. Spray it on every few minutes.


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## albrazzi

Thanks, We both drank a lot of water.


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## albrazzi

I went back a read the 3m polish likes to wiped down with denatured alcohol before waxing. I will try this.


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## Seamantha

This Fabulous post was done in 2009. Do you still recommend the same products now that we are in 2017? And, what process would you recommend for Awlgrip stripes on hull?


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## oomfh

I touch up my hull every spring using same products. Hard to improve on what’s been shared. Good luck!


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## tristan35

What an amazingly detailed post. Thank you for sharing! 
I just polished my hull with 3M Perfect-It 36105 Gelcoat Medium Cutting Compound/Wax. I was happy with the results, but it was definitely far from this incredible level of gloss. I think I'll take another shot at it next spring and maybe get it a little closer to something as amazing as this.


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## travlin-easy

I put my last coat of wax on the boat 4 years ago when I switched to Poli-Glo, which only takes me about a half hour to apply and looks fantastic all year long. This year, I'll strip the old coats of Poli-Glo from the hull with their special cleaner and begin anew. A friend of mine did that last week and his boat has a mirror finish now. 

Good Luck,

Gary


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## Scandium

How important is variable speed on the buffer? I don't have electric where my boat is currently stored so looking at a Ryobi battery powered buffer, but it's single speed (2500 rpm). Is that too fast? Oxidation isn't that bad, and the boat is only 24 feet so I don't plan on going all out, so maybe it's ok? Or is a single-speed so bad I should consider a towing the boat to a different location to do it? (or finding a generator, I'm not spending $800 on one..)

edit; nvm, think I'm ditching the idea of battery powered buffer. Gonna try one of the cheaper $400 generators. Also useful for power washer and other things.


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## SloopJonB

2500 is too fast - that's sanding speed.

For buffing & polishing you want about 1/2 that - 1200 to 1400.


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## TakeFive

Scandium said:


> How important is variable speed on the buffer? I don't have electric where my boat is currently stored so looking at a Ryobi battery powered buffer, but it's single speed (2500 rpm). Is that too fast? Oxidation isn't that bad, and the boat is only 24 feet so I don't plan on going all out, so maybe it's ok? Or is a single-speed so bad I should consider a towing the boat to a different location to do it? (or finding a generator, I'm not spending $800 on one..)
> 
> edit; nvm, think I'm ditching the idea of battery powered buffer. Gonna try one of the cheaper $400 generators. Also useful for power washer and other things.


In my experience, electric power washers are almost worthless. Even a high power gas washer isn't as effective as a brush or wiping with a sponge. The only reason to use a gas power washer is ergonomics - you can wash the slime off the bottom of your boat in a standing or kneeling position, much more comfortably than brushing/wiping your boat's bottom from underneath, with slimy water dripping all over you and running down your arm. But for topsides, a pressure washer is far more trouble than it's worth (and can damage the gelcoat if you slip up and get too close).

Back to the main topic, I'd check the power needs of a plug-in buffer and consider an inverter. If a little plug-in one won't be enough, but they make bigger ones (400-600 watt) that can clamp onto a car battery. If you're on the hard, you could run your car motor to juice the battery while running off the inverter.


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## paulinnanaimo

I own a buffer but I rarely use it, arm muscles work fine.


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## SloopJonB

You do your cut polishing by hand? 

I usually do my waxing by hand but not the cutting compounds.


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## Scandium

SloopJonB said:


> You do your cut polishing by hand?
> 
> I usually do my waxing by hand but not the cutting compounds.


That sounds a bit intense.. I don't have power where my boat is now so I'm trying to find a way to use a buffer without spending $400+ on a generator just for that purpose. But don't think arm muscles is the answer. Maybe I just do full buffing in the fall instead.


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## paulinnanaimo

Perhaps I was misleading about using muscle power. I have not let our boat get to the point of needing special attention. The hull is in good shape and a good going over twice a year with a cleaner/wax keeps it that way.


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## paulinnanaimo

I should add that Scandium did say that his boat is 24', is not oxidized badly, and he isn't planning to 'go all out'. That, to me, suggests that moving the boat or buying a generator, to power a buffer that he does not have, is a lot of unnecessary expense and effort.


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## Scandium

paulinnanaimo said:


> I should add that Scandium did say that his boat is 24', is not oxidized badly, and he isn't planning to 'go all out'. That, to me, suggests that moving the boat or buying a generator, to power a buffer that he does not have, is a lot of unnecessary expense and effort.


Yeah that's what I'm thinking. Though I honestly don't know how to tell how bad oxidation is as this is my first time dealing with it.. And don't have anyone to ask. It is on a trailer so moving it isn't a huge deal. I'll probably get a $50 buffer and drive it somewhere to give the sides a once over. The deck etc I can do by hand. But like you I hope to just do a cleaner-wax by hand after a thorough first time. So want to avoid getting lots of tools I won't need again for a while


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## paulinnanaimo

You can pick a small area to start and see how that goes.


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## SloopJonB

I wouldn't waste the $50 on a cheap buffer like this one

https://www.amazon.ca/Wen-10PMR-Waxer-Polisher-10-Inch/dp/B004TA06QA

All they do is vibrate your hands. Save it towards a good one for when you have power.

Sounds like a thorough hand applied cleaner/wax job - maybe a second coat of good quality carnauba would be the way to go now. Not much more work doing a 24' than a car.

In the described circumstances that's the way I'd go.


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## TakeFive

SloopJonB said:


> I usually do my waxing by hand but not the cutting compounds.


That's the right way. If someone needs a buffer for wax, they haven't polished correctly...even if it's 885 Fleetwax.


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## Scandium

SloopJonB said:


> Not much more work doing a 24' than a car.


This tells me nothing, lol. Never waxed a car (it's a car, who cares? My boat on the other hand..)

Anyway. I worry, from my limited understanding, that just doing a one-step cleaner/wax now could risk "sealing in" the oxidation? There's a blue part on the side that's pretty chalky. But maybe doing a proper compound/oxidation remover next spring could easily get rid of it? Or a wax-remover first? And I guess there's the chance the one-step might actually be enough (though the OP here has no love for those, probably for good reason. At least he didn't 10 years ago..).

But as soon as water is turned on so I can clean it I'll hand-apply compound and wax a small area and see how it goes. It it's too big a PIA do a 1-step to the sides at least, since I can't do those once in the water. But you're right a 24' isn't that big.
Thanks


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## Minnewaska

I do not intend to veer anyone off the track of the excellent advice in the OP. It's the way to go for perfect results. The last post seemed concerned about doing less, using cleaner/waxes, etc. To that I say, you really can't do much harm. Any cleaning and protection is better than none. Personally, I would shy away from any that actually coat or paint the fiberglass. If anything doesn't come out as good as you like, it needs to be able to be easily removed. Even wax can build up, so any good cleaning should start by removing the old wax. Wax is very easily removed with the right detergent.


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## paulinnanaimo

Scandium
Cleaner/wax is a good idea but not for removing oxidation. If you go back to the beginning of this thread the advice given for removing oxidation is rubbing compound and/or wet sanding. There are a multitude of additional steps but you have to decide how much effort, money, and time you are willing to invest. Keep in mind that some of the great advice given here is coming from sailors that own boats that are worth many tens of thousands of dollars...their perspective may not be the same as yours.


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## TakeFive

Scandium said:


> ...There's a blue part on the side that's pretty chalky...
> Thanks


If you have a chalky dark blue boot stripe or similar, you may have to wet sand. I've done this on two separate boats using 2000 grit sandpaper with spray bottle with a little detergent in the water, and it has always restored the deep blue color. After the wet sand, do your polish like you'd do on the white part of the hull, and finally the wax.

For both of my boats I've always done a one-step with Presta Ultra Cutting Cream, which is one of the things that Maine Sail suggested. It starts out a coarse compound, and breaks down as you work it (using electric polisher) to a fine polish. It's worked very well for me.

I went several years with a cheapo Harbor Freight polisher, but got tired of the speed running away every time it heated up, so finally got smart and got a Makita variable speed which is rock solid at the needed slow speed setting.


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## ottos

Paging Maine Sail !

Rod, you said "For gelcoat you want a rotary/circular machine NOT a dual action..." 

Could you give me a little background on this please? I got a Shurhold Dual action with the boat....

Also - have you ever tried any of the Smoove products?


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## oomfh

Not sure how often Rod checks in during the boating season - but I have both pieces of equipment so will offer a cliff notes version. 
Basically I use my DA for smaller appplication such a Lexan type port lights and hatches or tight areas not accessible with a full size rotary machine. 
I use the rotary style polisher, e.g., the Makita 9227c, for large areas like between the waterline and rub rail. When compounding you want the torque provided by the larger more powerful machine. 
In short, it would take significantly less time for compounding, polishing and glazing with the larger machine. 
I’m not sure you could ever achieve the same results with the DA. 
Hope this helps and good luck.


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## bristol299bob

I have both, I use the DA on my cars and the rotary polisher on the boat. I've found that the DA wont make a dent in gelcoat, gelcoat is just too hard. Alternatively, on the car, the rotary is too powerful and can easily "get away from you" and damage car's paint. Compared to gelcoat paint is very soft.

so, use the right tool for the job. I think you'll find that the DA is simply not effective on gelcoat.

After machine polishing I use Zaino, applied by hand, on my boat and my cars. It's a synthetic sealant and I find that it lasts many times longer than even the hardest wax. I really like Zaino products but I'm sure there are lots of other similar products. Unlike wax, Zaino is insanely easy to apply and buff off.

My boat is 42 years old: 









this is my 20 year old, 200k mi car after the full zaino treatment:


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## Minnewaska

Silicon polymers, which I believe Zaino to be, are easy to apply and the good ones look great. However, I’ve never known one to last longer than wax. Just easier to reapply. I used to use one designed for aircraft, on the theory that I could more easily apply it, from the dingy mid-season. 

Those days are over. I pay the yard to buff and apply a good hard wax each spring and enjoy the years remaining before I reach my shoulder’s use-by date.


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## Maine Sail

ottos said:


> Paging Maine Sail !
> 
> Rod, you said "For gelcoat you want a rotary/circular machine NOT a dual action..."
> 
> Could you give me a little background on this please? I got a Shurhold Dual action with the boat....
> 
> Also - have you ever tried any of the Smoove products?


Dual action buffers just don't perform well on gelcoat, other than perhaps for a final polish. Even then a good rotary will be quicker. The good thing about a DA is that it is very tough for a novice to screw up with one..

I own numerous DA buffers such as a Griot's, a Porter Cable & a German made Flex. The Flex is by far and away the best performer, multiple leagues ahead of the Porter Cable & Griot's (Sure Hold, in my experience, is in this level or a slight notch below), but DA's, even the Flex, are next to useless for any level of oxidation or restoration work on gel-coat.


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## ottos

Thanks guys! Excellent explanations! 

Any experience with the Smoove line of products? My boatyard is using them exclusively (they are listed as a dealer). It is polymer based. I have seen several really good reviews....


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## SanderO

Any tips for cleaning and waxing the hull on a mooring?


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## outbound

Have three questions 
Boat is in the water and in the tropics. Rarely if ever in a slip with a fresh water hose available. What if any steps can I take to maintain the hull and house?
Got stains around the chain plates as had a fresh water leak on passage so use used vasoline as a temporary fix until I could Rebecca them. What gets it out of non skid?
Got scattered hydraulic oil stains on top of the house when a cylinder inside the boom vang failed. Most came up with dawn, then magic eraser then deck wash but still have a little. What to use that won’t injure the tan non skid?


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## Minnewaska

I can't give any magic recommendations for wax/polish at a mooring or anchor. However, one would need to wash first and I keep a 1.5 gallon hand pumped sprayer aboard for occasions like this. It's mostly used for the dodger or deck, but it uses very little water and can clean a large area.


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## albrazzi

I might as well chime in here, I have and use both buffers, Maine's advice as always is spot on. I do find the DA so much easier to use on the deck and cockpit, plus I've found you don't want but so much polish here for slip resistance and glare. I get it smooth enough to protect and look good. BTW the Collinite wax Maine suggests is the easiest to apply I have ever used, highly recommended.


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## outbound

We make water but there’s nothing like the hard,strong spray that comes out of a shore side nozzle.


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## Cassidy

outbound said:


> Have three questions
> Boat is in the water and in the tropics. Rarely if ever in a slip with a fresh water hose available. What if any steps can I take to maintain the hull and house?
> Got stains around the chain plates as had a fresh water leak on passage so use used vasoline as a temporary fix until I could Rebecca them. What gets it out of non skid?
> Got scattered hydraulic oil stains on top of the house when a cylinder inside the boom vang failed. Most came up with dawn, then magic eraser then deck wash but still have a little. What to use that won't injure the tan non skid?


Not sure if you can get this easily outside of New Zealand but probably available on-line. This stuff takes off deck stains, rust marks, the yellowing on topsides, oily marks, tarnishing on SS, you name it. I couldn't live without a tub of this on board. Wipe on, leave for 10 minutes, rinse off. Literally.

https://www.burnsco.co.nz/shop/boat...iNhz1ZFTbUT84OcfdmGIy1AfPGoD5LfYY3xoCyJ7w_wcB


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## outbound

Is it the same as “on/off” ?


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## bristol299bob

Minnewaska said:


> However, I've never known one to last longer than wax.


really? Im surprised. I don't know which product you used, or how you applied it, but in my experience Zaino, applied correctly and once cured, is extremely hard and long lasting. It's far longer lasting than any wax that I've used. To my eye it gives a deeper shine too.

Don't get me wrong I used to be a huge Collinite fan. I used Collinite exclusively on my cars and boat for years. It is no doubt the hardest wax available and gives great, beautiful results. But it is a serious workout to apply and buff out. And while it will last longer than any other wax, I've seen that it cant compete with modern sealants.

About 15 yrs ago I tried Zaino on a recommendation from a friend in my car club and never went back. After a few years of using it on my cars I talked to the owner of Zaino and got some advice and tips for using it on fiberglass. The very first time the surface does need to be stripped of residual wax, etc, before applying. Prep is nothing crazy but these sealants can't layer properly on top of waxes.

Anyway I dont mean to preach or convert anyone. I know these things can be like anchor or motor oil discussions. I have no affiliation with Zaino, I'm just sharing my experience.

oh and for the record, use a mantus anchor, and Amsoil fluids in your engine and transmission or else you are doomed


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## TakeFive

bristol299bob said:


> really? Im surprised. I don't know which product you used, or how you applied it, but in my experience Zaino, applied correctly and once cured, is extremely hard and long lasting. It's far longer lasting than any wax that I've used. To my eye it gives a deeper shine too.
> 
> Don't get me wrong I used to be a huge Collinite fan. I used Collinite exclusively on my cars and boat for years. It is no doubt the hardest wax available and gives great, beautiful results. But it is a serious workout to apply and buff out. And while it will last longer than any other wax, I've seen that it cant compete with modern sealants.
> 
> About 15 yrs ago I tried Zaino on a recommendation from a friend in my car club and never went back. After a few years of using it on my cars I talked to the owner of Zaino and got some advice and tips for using it on fiberglass. The very first time the surface does need to be stripped of residual wax, etc, before applying. Prep is nothing crazy but these sealants can't layer properly on top of waxes.
> 
> Anyway I dont mean to preach or convert anyone. I know these things can be like anchor or motor oil discussions. I have no affiliation with Zaino, I'm just sharing my experience.
> 
> oh and for the record, use a mantus anchor, and Amsoil fluids in your engine and transmission or else you are doomed


Collinite is a brand name with dozens of different formulations. Unless you specify which one you used, there's no frame of reference for your comments.

In general, if any wax is hard to apply and buff, you're probably doing something wrong, usually skimping on the polishing step, applying in direct sun, or trying to do too large an area at one time.


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## Cassidy

outbound said:


> Is it the same as "on/off" ?


Sorry, don't get the question. Is on/off a product or a process? If a process, then yes, Grunt Emergel is an on/off product.


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## outbound

No it’s a brand name. Basically an acid in gel form.


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## Cassidy

outbound said:


> No it's a brand name. Basically an acid in gel form.


Yes then it's similar. Grunt is a gel that is strong in oxalic acid. Sounds tough but is not aggressively toxic. I've been using it for years and never had any corrosive damage to any hard surface. Not kind to softs like canvas or upholstery.


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## waynek

Just finished everything except the final wax coats. Thank you so much for the guide, i put it to good use on my 25 year old gel coat.


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## Skipper Jer

I have the Makita 9227c buffer polisher. I'm in the market for a small pad buffer polisher, either 4 or 5 inch. Haven't found one that doesn't include random orbital action. Maine sail said in the begining "For gelcoat you want a rotary/circular machine NOT a dual action " Just how important is rotary vs dual action? Also can anyone recommend a 4 or 5 inch buffer polisher corded rotary only?


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## waynek

Skipper Jer said:


> I have the Makita 9227c buffer polisher. I'm in the market for a small pad buffer polisher, either 4 or 5 inch. Haven't found one that doesn't include random orbital action. Maine sail said in the begining "For gelcoat you want a rotary/circular machine NOT a dual action " Just how important is rotary vs dual action? Also can anyone recommend a 4 or 5 inch buffer polisher corded rotary only?


 I was very happy with the smaller sized lake county ccs foam pads and backing plates on my 9227 for places the full sized pads wouldn’t work. I say no need for a second polisher unless the space is too small for the full sized polisher even with the small pads.


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## Skipper Jer

waynek said:


> I was very happy with the smaller sized lake county ccs foam pads and backing plates on my 9227 for places the full sized pads wouldn’t work. I say no need for a second polisher unless the space is too small for the full sized polisher even with the small pads.


I didn't know one could fit smaller pads on the 9227. I'll look into that. Thanks


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## SanderO

My tip is to pay someone to do it and use Colinite products


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