# Why buy a brand new $150,000 sailboat?



## khammett (Sep 20, 2013)

Watch this video...he has some great advice...






Why buy a brand new sailboat costing bank and having a monthly payment of like $1,500 spread over 20 years not including insurance, slip fees, maintence, hulling out, etc? You won't be able to enjoy the boat really at all because you'll be working 24-7 just to pay it off. Why not just buy a way way cheaper boat 20, 30, 40 years old and just put some work into it. At least that way you'll have the time to enjoy it!


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

This goes without saying. Even if I won the lottery I would never buy a new sailboat. 150 maybe, but not new.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

For the kind of boat I have, $150K wouldn't even touch a new model!

I agree with him in principal. I paid cash for my H40. And it feels good to have that freedom. But I have no problem with people who borrow for what they want either - as long as they can afford it. It's their money...their time...their call.

I looked at some of this dude's other videos.

http://www.youtube.com/user/BugOutVehicles/videos

Okaaaay. The survivalist superiority complex is just really weird.

Survivalism is only necessary when it's necessary. And it's just not necessary. I'll stick with the good life.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Preaching to the choir here.
Of course, Smacky is right that it is not my biznesz how other people spend their money.

I'm glad some people can buy new boats. Helps to put new boats into the used market, eventually.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I'm really glad some people want new boats. I bouight my half tonner new and I enjoyed it. I bought my Esprit 37 new and it was fun. I certainly enjoyed it for we a few years. Then I moved on to something else. Lots of great used boats out there today.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

150g's won't buy much of a boat these days, new.
If I had the money (lottery win or whatever) I would have a boat built for me. All boats are compromises otherwise and it sure would be nice to incorporate all I've learned from all the boats I've operated over the last 50 or so years into what would be the perfect boat for me.
It has always been my dream to have some fat cat ask me to design the perfect cruising boat.
Hurry up, Richie Rich, time's running out.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Actually I think that is about the right price of a new J/88!


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

According to Yachtworld, you can get a Catalina 315 or Hunter 33 in that price range. Not for me, but different strokes for different folks I guess..
How much do dealers come off new boat prices? 15%?? 20?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

It appears that prices of used boats continue their free fall. I would probably not buy a boat off eBay, but if I did:

1980 O'Day 37 CC for $11,000: 37 foot ODay 1980 $11,000 in Sailboats | eBay Motors

1976 Grampian 2-34 for $8,500: 34 foot grampian marine G-234 1976 in Sailboats | eBay Motors

Although some have pointed out two separate boat-buying market segments in the U.S., the high end and the low end, that behave differently, ultimately the continued drop in low end used boat prices will pull all used boat prices down, and perhaps even new boat prices.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

buying a brand new boat and buying a brand new car are similar--the depreciation is huge. 
a neighbor in sd had bought a brand new boat---then over time his family sed sellor i go..he had his boat appraised for selling--the remainder of his boat loan was twice the amount he could sell for--- be aware---he was stuck without his family and with the boat.no it wasnt a sailboat. it was a mainship..


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> For the kind of boat I have, $150K wouldn't even touch a new model!
> 
> I agree with him in principal. I paid cash for my H40. And it feels good to have that freedom. But I have no problem with people who borrow for what they want either - as long as they can afford it. It's their money...their time...their call.
> 
> ...


I think Smack got it totally right here. Different strokes for different folks!

I bought my first larger sailboat when I was 55. I was not planning on sailing off into the sunset and living aboard. I just wanted a bigger boat to sail and use for a couple of long trips a year. I have lots of other hobbies and things that take my time. I am anal about maintenance and did not want to spend a lot of time fixing other peoples mistakes and lack of maintenance. Hell, things break on new boats, just not as often. 
I bought what I wanted because I could and it was what worked for me. I'm happy, and hopefully anyone who makes a different decision is as well.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

There's no right or wrong answer. Actually it's a silly question.

It depends on your financial situation, what you want/enjoy and how long you intend to keep the boat.

There's a lot to be said for having a new boat with a new engine, new electronics, set up exactly as you want her, where no one has mucked up the wiring or the maintenance. Plus it feels REALLY good!

Your financial situation is a huge part of the equation. For some $10K is a big investment. For others $40K cash is a reasonable outlay. For a lucky few dropping $300K on a $600K boat gives them a payment that's perfectly comfortable. After all how many million dollar homes do we sail past along the coast...

I'm just happy mine is paid for.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

They can't manufacture used boats so I encourage and applaud those who buy new. Take good care of them because in a few years I will buy it from you. 

There are lots of ways to lose money buying a used boat. If a buyer has cash and buys new, they could resell the boat at a decent price, depreciating it over several years, having fun and then selling it for 30% less than they paid with no work to do.... that might be a good deal. I say bravo.

Oh and the prepper thing is the stupidest ever... but in case of economic collapse, zombie outbreak, whatever, I can think of few "bug out vehicles" that would be better than a big sailboat.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I dont understand this thread.. the video is about a guy who bought an RV. Thats a motor home type thing. Doesnt go anywhere near water unless the guy cant drive.


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## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

My baby cost $2200. 25 feet of completely seaworthy, coziness. Sure, I don't have a large salon or a shower, but I have beds for 4, and I can sail the coast of Maine on a shoe string. If I had to spend . . . . $40,000 on a boat and $5000/year slip/haul/storage/maintenance, there is no way I would be sailing. I'm thankful and blessed with my little trailer sailor. I get the thrill and freedom of sailing, stay for a week at a time in remote bays and hidden coves, anchor in as little as 3'-0 of water (dead low), take friends out, motor up to the fancy man's dock at the Lobstah, Shack, then pull her out, take her home for a wash and re-store for next trip. I'll never cross an ocean but don't want to. I'll never travel the ICW, but don't want to. I'll never date Michelle Pfeiffer . . . wait, I could go for that. But you get my point. Bigger does NOT mean better, or more committed to sailing. In many cases it means just the opposite. I've seen folks who have obviously been at anchor for weeks. In Maine????? Well, off my soapbox and back to work.


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## Thermophile (Sep 22, 2013)

The way i look at cars and boats are similar to what everyone else here is saying. I wouldnt mind a new boat, but my CAR cost me 3k and thst was a lot. If i can muster enough for a small boat and afford maint. Ill be happy. But if i could drop 150k on a boat to live in, id do it. 

Come on luxky 7s!


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Why do people buy $150k new boats? Because it's what they want. Boats, like other big toys, make zero economic sense. Regardless, new, used, big, little, none is justifiable from an economic POV. None is an investment.

However, from a value added POV they are totally justifiable. That is value added to enjoyment of your life. A boat is a value trade off. Would you rather have cash in hand or time on the water? 

The question isn't why do people buy $150k new boats, it is did they get $150k of enjoyment from the trade? If they got that or multiples of that, money well spent!


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I dont understand this thread.. the video is about a guy who bought an RV. Thats a motor home type thing. Doesnt go anywhere near water unless the guy cant drive.


some do


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

$150000 loan for 15 years at 3 to 4 % interest rate is monthly payment of $1000-$1100 per month, depending on the rate obtained. (Not 1500 for 20 years.)


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Is this enough to buy all active Sailnetters a new boat?

Regards,
Brad


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Brad, I only need a few stacks and I'm good.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

He lost me at the letters RV. I thought this was Sailnet?


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

friend of mine went in with his brother and father to buy a new powerboat. They got a 19 foot centre cockpit with a small cubbycabin and a 300hp outboard... it cost them 90,000!?!

This for a boat you cannot even sleep aboard. the cubby is just about big enough to house the portapotti and stow some gear


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Kinda like asking why buy a new car?

Well, you don't have to ask what Bozo hooked up out of sight. The rigging is new and should be reliable. The sails are new are should perform well. All kinds of maintenance questions can be ignored and there might even be a warranty. 

So sure, it costs more, but there is a "turn key" aspect to things that old used cars or boats will never have. Nice if you can afford it.

And besides, if no one bought new boats, where would we find the used ones??


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## cutterdad (Apr 10, 2013)

A lot of us just posted congratulations to Bob Perry for his wonderful boat designs. Imagine if no one commissioned new boat designs. We might not have the great boats he designed new or used and Bob would just be another Rock Star with a band.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> And besides, if no one bought new boats, where would we find the used ones??


If no one bought new cars and boats there would be a lot of out of work factory workers... and no one would be able to slag off China.

It amazes me that so many people can think vehicles are unafordable and boats are unaffordable. Stop drinking alcohol and start saving and all this stuff will be theirs to buy when they have stuck their nose to the grind-stone.

And not before 

Mark


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## CarbonSink62 (Sep 29, 2011)

My wife and I sometimes feel elitist when we tell friends we intend to upgrade to a 30' cruising boat next year because a well equipped older one is 'only' about $20,000. To us, that doesn't seem like that much money; to a lot of people, that is way too much to spend on a toy.

To someone else, $150,000 isn't that much money. Good for them; in 20 years someone will buy that boat used at a price they can afford.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Seaduction said:


> $150000 loan for 15 years at 3 to 4 % interest rate is monthly payment of $1000-$1100 per month, depending on the rate obtained. (Not 1500 for 20 years.)


$1000 a month versus $1500, doesn't really matter. The point is from a financial POV it's lost money.

On a recent thread a poster posted that he had purchased a 30 foot sail boat in 1975 for $12500. The new version of that same boat today, accounting for inflation should cost about $50,000, though in actuality it's about 3x that amount. Had that same person instead of buying a sailboat put that money into a run of the mill growth and income mutual fund that account today would be worth over $1,300,000.

Obviously, you can't sail a mutual fund. But there is a real cost to everything we do. The difference between what that 40 year old sailboat is worth today and that 1.3 mill is called lost opportunity cost. it is the end result of the road not taken.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> If no one bought new cars and boats there would be a lot of out of work factory workers... and no one would be able to slag off China.
> 
> It amazes me that so many people can think vehicles are unafordable and boats are unaffordable. Stop drinking alcohol and start saving and all this stuff will be theirs to buy when they have stuck their nose to the grind-stone.
> 
> ...


Mark, I know I shouldn't say this but there is something wrong with a rich guy on a boat pointing the finger at the less rich and telling them they need only work harder.

Median income in the United States is $46,000. Average worker is going to clear about 70% of that. That takes us down to about $30,000. $2500 a month. In my town a decent apartment is $2000 a month. Less decent $1600 a month. Utilities are $300 a month. Gas for car $200, insurance for car $150 minimum, food $500 a month. Oops we're outta of money before we're outta month!

Could they work harder and maybe increase their income by 10%? Maybe. But that only gives them $400 gross extra per month. To save the 20% down payment on a $150K boat would take them over six years but then the $1000/month payment would bust them. And, the truth is no bank would approve them.

The point: It isn't just a matter of working harder. The average worker can't possibly work themselves into a new boat. To do that they need a career change where harder work correlates directly to higher income. High end sales comes to mind.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

CBinRI said:


> Even if I won the lottery I would never buy a new sailboat.


That is crazy talk!!! If I won the lottery I would buy a brand new boat with all the toys!

Maybe a couple of them!


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

TJC45 said:


> $1000 a month versus $1500, doesn't really matter. The point is from a financial POV it's lost money.
> 
> On a recent thread a poster posted that he had purchased a 30 foot sail boat in 1975 for $12500. The new version of that same boat today, accounting for inflation should cost about $50,000, though in actuality it's about 3x that amount. Had that same person instead of buying a sailboat put that money into a run of the mill growth and income mutual fund that account today would be worth over $1,300,000.
> 
> Obviously, you can't sail a mutual fund. But there is a real cost to everything we do. The difference between what that 40 year old sailboat is worth today and that 1.3 mill is called lost opportunity cost. it is the end result of the road not taken.


Well, without crunching the numbers I'd say the rate of inflation is way off. Today's 30 footer also has more and more complicated systems.

But to stick with your analogy if the guy who bought that boat in 1975 was 25 he'd be 63 today and would have enjoyed a lifetime on the water. Had he waited he might have a chunk of money - assuming he didn't get screwed in one of the intervening Wall street debacles - but he literally would have missed out on a lifetime's worth of experiences.

What's the dollar value of that?

To me the boat is money well spent.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

TJC45 said:


> Mark, I know I shouldn't say this but there is something wrong with a rich guy on a boat pointing the finger at the less rich and telling them they need only work harder.
> 
> .


Thats the sort of stuff said by someone without ambition.

Sorry it doesnt wash on me.

Of any place in the world one should look at the USA for the spirit. Only 17% of American millionairs had money to begin with.

The rest made it.

By work.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

JimMcGee said:


> Well, without crunching the numbers I'd say the rate of inflation is way off. Today's 30 footer also has more and more complicated systems.
> 
> But to stick with your analogy if the guy who bought that boat in 1975 was 25 he'd be 63 today and would have enjoyed a lifetime on the water. Had he waited he might have a chunk of money - assuming he didn't get screwed in one of the intervening Wall street debacles - but he literally would have missed out on a lifetime's worth of experiences.
> 
> ...


So were are on the same page - I totally agree with you, as long as the buyer enjoyed the boat, that was money well spent. Having a large bank account on your last day on the planet is not the measure of a life well spent. In fact it could be the direct opposite. personally, I agree with buying the boat. Believe me when i say, I've spent so much money on "stuff" i'm the last person to judge how others spend their money!

The point is non judgmental. It is only to point out that there is a lost opportunity cost when we chose to buy things like boats.

As for the math, it's dead on. Even with the Wall Street debacles. They've been accounted for.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Thats the sort of stuff said by someone without ambition.
> 
> Sorry it doesnt wash on me.
> 
> ...


In this case that sort of stuff statement is made by a person with a seven figure income. Someone who knows what he is talking about.

No ambition? if you knew who i was you would realize how ridiculous that statement is. Do you manage other people's money? because i do. A lot of money! These people actually pay me to do this. let's leave it that I speak from the POV of a money management expert.

We weren't talking about millionaires here. We were talking about, how did you put it- people who should stop spending so much money on drinking and put their noses to the grindstone. And how anybody can afford a boat with just some hard work. That is a falsehood. The average american worker is not a millionaire. If he remains in place on the factory floor no amount of working harder will get him there.

That said, by living small, being careful, and investing smartly he may build a million dollar retirement portfolio by the time he is ready to retire. But that's not what you are talking about.

For that worker to achieve a higher income and net worth they would need to step out from behind the machine press and start their own company or go to school to find a position that pays substantially more than the median wage. Most who start their own companies would fail. It's just the way it is. Those who are successful could possibly achieve financial independence well before normal retirement age. IOW, retire early. Most of both these groups, though wouldn't be in that position. Why? because as their incomes increase it is natural for the lifestyles to become more expensive. The Camry gets traded for a Benz. The 3 bedroom rancher gets upgraded to a 5 bedroom McMansion. 5 days at the shore becomes ten days in Tahiti. And then they buy a $150,000 sailboat and there goes another $1000 a month. And on it goes.

Working to support a high lifestyle the question becomes: Do you own the toys or do they own you?


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

TJC45 said:


> So were are on the same page - I totally agree with you, as long as the buyer enjoyed the boat, that was money well spent. Having a large bank account on your last day on the planet is not the measure of a life well spent. In fact it could be the direct opposite. personally, I agree with buying the boat. Believe me when i say, I've spent so much money on "stuff" i'm the last person to judge how others spend their money!
> 
> The point is non judgmental. It is only to point out that there is a lost opportunity cost when we chose to buy things like boats.
> 
> As for the math, it's dead on. Even with the Wall Street debacles. They've been accounted for.


TJ, rate of inflation calculators tend to be weighted heavily towards consumables (milk, bread, etc.). According to those calculators a Honda Accord or Chevy Impala should cost around $15K - but we know that's not the case, the average mid-line sedan is $25-$30K optioned out.

If a 30 footer was around $15K in 1975, it was about 5x the cost of the average well equipped sedan. If a well equipped sedan today is 25K-$30K (without arguing the details) then the average 30 footer should be around $125K-$150K and that is pretty much the ballpark.

But I still think the important question here is the philosophical one - and on that we agree.


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## Thermophile (Sep 22, 2013)

Honestly at this job, living modestly, i could afford a 1g a month payment. Imnin direct sales for dish neteork. But i also wouldnneed to do 50 to 60 hours a week. But then who has time to sail?also, slip fees and maint. Just too much imo. Used i can do 5k or less on a little boat, and maybe aford all the slip and maint fees. there will always be poeple with the money to buy new, untill the day there arent enough, companies will make them at a high cost. When there are ONLY poeple like me in the boat world new prices will come down fast.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I've long subscribed to the attitude that the only things I HAVE to have new are food & underwear. Let the other guy eat that initial huge hit of depreciation.

It's especially true with big ticket items - houses, cars, boats. Hell, I even hunt down sets of good used tires for my minivan - it doesn't require high performance tires so I'd rather spend $150 for a set with 90% life left than $800 for a 100% set.

Now on my wife's Jag however.....


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Thermophile said:


> When there are ONLY poeple like me in the boat world new prices will come down fast.


Not true - there simply won't be any companies left building boats. It's already happening. Back in the 70's there were uncounted small boatbuilders out there. Now? BeneHuntaLina and a rapidly decreasing handful of others. Building pleasure boats is not a very profitable business - how many rich boatbuilders do you know?


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

A new boat is a good deal if you have the money to buy it and still have plenty left.

A used boat is a much better deal for most of us. I bought my boat, 20 years old, for $80,000. A new one just like it lists for $250,000 to $275,000. That would have been every penny I had.

With the money I didn't spend on the new boat, I spent about $20,000 upgrading mine and then still had all the rest of the money left to make my cruise really fun.

If I had had a million dollars, I would I have bought the new boat. But, I didn't.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Thats the sort of stuff said by someone without ambition.
> 
> Sorry it doesnt wash on me.
> 
> ...


....and 15% of them are in Congress

Sorry...couldn't resist

On topic...
If you can afford a brand new boat...rock on with yo bad self and buy one, you can't take it with you:laugher


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

AS sure as there are people who never drive a car over 45mph buying Ultimate Driving Machines, there will always be people who buy new boats.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I think its a matter of tax brackets. Some people have a lot of money and don't like hand me downs. So to check out sailing why not, make a few phone calls and transfer some money around and buy that new boat to see if sailing is cool.

Unfortunately for me $150k would not buy a new boat I would be interested in.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

All you have to do is watch all of the yachts coming out of Trinity Marine, near where I live, to realize there are a lot of people with a lot of money, who insist on new. They are back-ordered several years, in fact.

One of my friends was the co-captain on a billionaires yacht. To say money was no object was an understatement. Costs just didn't enter the equation, on anything (he spend $30,000 once to have a non-essential part delivered quickly). I'm sure he would say, "Well if a ten million dollar yacht is all you can afford, you should just buy it and be satisfied with it." 

Everything is relative.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Group9 said:


> They are back-ordered several years, in fact.
> 
> .... To say money was no object was an understatement. Costs just didn't enter the equation, .


So think of all the employment those rich people are providing.
From the design and build phase, to cruising, chartering, crews, technicians rpovisioning, even taht freight forwarding company, polish and wax makers etc etc etc.

They are doing well spreading the money around.

If we didnt have rich people we would all be poorer for it.

Mark


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Group9 said:


> All you have to do is watch all of the yachts coming out of Trinity Marine, near where I live.


You must be in Nawlins?


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## Subaqua (Jul 14, 2013)

Yup, a whole different world for those that fly Netjets to their boat.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

As a traditionalist.. there are very few new boats that I would even look at. I find most of them quite ugly (the new morgans are very pretty though) and I still prefer a deep full keel.. something that is very much out of style at the moment.

If I had the money, make no bones, I would be having something custom built. Until that Mythical day, I will keep buying 30, 40, or 50 year old boats, cleaning them up, and enjoying them as "mine"


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

jephotog said:


> You must be in Nawlins?


No, near the facility in Gulfport.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Lets see, bought a 22K boat, then proceeded to put some 60K into it with sails, interior etc.....so about 85K. Could have bought a new version for just over 100K, and not spent all the time fixing it over 3 yrs, could have been sailing. Granted I did a pretty major redo vs some of you, but none the less.......

As far as new cars go. Just remember, if you buy a 3 yr old car, you have no warrenty to go with said car either. From a business standpoint, it is cheaper to buy a new car especailly a truck vs used. After some time, it costs more to maintain and fix a rig, than it cost to buy new. Hence why I have always bought new trucks for biz. For personal use, might make more sense to buy a used car. but have never penciled it out. 

Marty


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm having dej vu.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/off-topic/103802-wither-sailing-affordability.html


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Stop drinking alcohol


With all due respect, this is a sailing forum. There is scant room for such nonsense here.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

rbrasi said:


> With all due respect, this is a sailing forum. There is scant room for such nonsense here.


So does this mean you are a sailor with a drinking problem, or a drinker with a sailing problem?
I'm confused.......as normal.


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

I am a dkfjievn ddu kfi wodjdoicj


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Group9 said:


> All you have to do is watch all of the yachts coming out of Trinity Marine, near where I live, to realize there are a lot of people with a lot of money, who insist on new. They are back-ordered several years, in fact.
> 
> One of my friends was the co-captain on a billionaires yacht. To say money was no object was an understatement. Costs just didn't enter the equation, on anything (he spend $30,000 once to have a non-essential part delivered quickly). I'm sure he would say, "Well if a ten million dollar yacht is all you can afford, you should just buy it and be satisfied with it."
> 
> Everything is relative.


Still, even Trinity had a very difficult time weathering the recession, they were barely hanging on for awhile...

There's a fascinating new book out about the megayacht industry, and Trinity and the build of the yacht LADY LINDA, in particular... GRAND AMBITION, by G Bruce Knecht, a wonderful reporter/writer who also authored THE PROVING GROUND, one of the best books about the Sydney-Hobart disaster a decade ago...

I recommend GRAND AMBITION highly, the book was over too quickly, for me... The people who commission these builds definitely do inhabit a different universe from you and I... However, as is the case with virtually every single one of these boats, she went on the brokerage market pretty much as soon as the owner took possession of her...



> G. Bruce Knecht, a former senior writer and foreign correspondent for the Wall Street Journal, contributor to national magazines, and an avid sailor, has just published "Grand Ambition," the story of the construction of the megayacht Lady Linda.
> 
> Focusing on a number of the personalities involved in the project, from the owners whose tastes and demands were paramount, to the ship-fitters, woodworkers, hull fairers, and systems technicians who did the work, to the Ponzi schemer whose crimes almost undid the whole effort, the story is brisk, effortlessly told, and absorbing. Knecht obviously had access to most of the central personalities involved, and spent many hours observing and then describing the details of their lives.
> 
> ...


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

blt2ski said:


> Lets see, bought a 22K boat, then proceeded to put some 60K into it with sails, interior etc.....so about 85K. Could have bought a new version for just over 100K, and not spent all the time fixing it over 3 yrs, could have been sailing. Granted I did a pretty major redo vs some of you, but none the less.......
> 
> As far as new cars go. Just remember, if you buy a 3 yr old car, you have no warrenty to go with said car either. From a business standpoint, it is cheaper to buy a new car especailly a truck vs used. After some time, it costs more to maintain and fix a rig, than it cost to buy new. Hence why I have always bought new trucks for biz. For personal use, might make more sense to buy a used car. but have never penciled it out.
> 
> Marty


With regards to cars, a three year old car sold by a new car dealer of the same make usually comes with a warranty. The cars are sold as certified pre- owned. That warranty covers the car up to 100,000 miles. Which beats the standard, 3/36 and 4/50 warranties attached to new cars.

Though most people get hosed buying cars, (even so called educated buyers) it usually a better financial decision to buy used.

In a study of the buying habits of millionaires, DR Thomas Stanley showed an interesting example of attitudes towards money. . A young 30 something box salesman always bought or leased new BMW 5 series, and kept them three years. A Doctor with an income three times higher than the six figure income of the box salesman bought only 3 year old off lease BMWs. This he did on a 5 year cycle. The doctor was a millionaire several times over. The box salesman though not expected to have the doctor's net worth, and in spite of having a six figure income, was essentially broke. The upshot being had the doctor had the same attitude towards money as the box salesman his net worth would be substantially less.

Draw your own conclusions


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> So think of all the employment those rich people are providing.
> From the design and build phase, to cruising, chartering, crews, technicians rpovisioning, even taht freight forwarding company, polish and wax makers etc etc etc.
> 
> They are doing well spreading the money around.
> ...


And if all those workers would just stop drinking and put their noses to the grindstone they could be buying those boats instead of building them! That is your take on non millionaire workers right?


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Used sailboats are more comparable to old houses than used cars. A solid old house can usually be renovated for less than the cost of buying new. Same goes with buying an old sail boat. Buy a clapped out 30 year old plus sailboat, gut it and rebuilt it, all up 50k to 75k plus the cost of the boat. Lot cheaper and just as reliable as new. 

Reason: you are not paying for the profit margin of several layers of manufacturing and distribution.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Still, even Trinity had a very difficult time weathering the recession, they were barely hanging on for awhile...
> 
> There's a fascinating new book out about the megayacht industry, and Trinity and the build of the yacht LADY LINDA, in particular... GRAND AMBITION, by G Bruce Knecht, a wonderful reporter/writer who also authored THE PROVING GROUND, one of the best books about the Sydney-Hobart disaster a decade ago...
> 
> I recommend GRAND AMBITION highly, the book was over too quickly, for me... The people who commission these builds definitely do inhabit a different universe from you and I... However, as is the case with virtually every single one of these boats, she went on the brokerage market pretty much as soon as the owner took possession of her...


I know one of Trinity's yacht orders was canceled because the buyer found out he had lost 1.6 billion when Madoff's ponzi scheme got outed.

You wouldn't know they were having problems to sail by their yard, though.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

> you never have enough.


Therein lies the problem with the insatiable greed of mega-rich people. They could have every last nickle in the world and they STILL wouldn't be satisfied. To them there's never enough, only "more".

Kind of pathetic really - certainly vulgar.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

TJ,

Cars as you point out, I would believe. A truck as I use in my business, you never know what you will get with a 3 yr old rig! You may have a rig that looks clean, but has been overloaded or max loaded day in and out, with multiple drivers as I do to them. So at the end of the day, a new rig makes more sense. As by the time I sell them 5-10 yrs later, they are ready for a junk yard! I can also write off the truck. where as the dr is not writing off his car more than likely.

There is many ways to look at this depending upon how long one keeps a rig.

As afar as boats go, yeah, I would believe a boat is like buying a house. one can at times upgrade an older house boat for less than a new one. Again depending upon the type and style. what you are willing to put into it etc. I've seen people buy million dollar homes, then gut and remodel to the tune of 1.5 mil, and still only have a home worth 1-1.5mil! But they figure, by the time they live there for the next 10-15 yrs, they have made money per say on the home enjoying how it is etc.

Marty


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

THere are a couple of local yards that do large custom work, I know of one or two that are scheduled out 2-3 yrs, but due to something in the back ground, are very cash poor! Altho Delta and Westport yachts seem to be doing well and paying bills. I know of another local builder that is sold out for 6 months, and they build fishing boat from 14-28' from the mid 20's to just over 100K. Another building personal use tugs in the 200-300 range is also sold out for about 6 more months, producing 20 boats a month. 

Marty


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> Therein lies the problem with the insatiable greed of mega-rich people. They could have every last nickle in the world and they STILL wouldn't be satisfied. To them there's never enough, only "more".
> 
> Kind of pathetic really - certainly vulgar.


Well said, Comrade!


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## Missingyou (Aug 16, 2013)

It's all relative and I don't disagree with the idea of buying used and when you are looking at older boats they do seem like a bargain, at least on the surface. However in my case I was looking at mid 2000's(2004 to 2006) boats in the 45 foot range and I was not impressed by the value proposition. Unlike powerboats, sailboats do hold their value and make the concept of buying new not totally unreasonable. Also given that there will be a relative gap in the used market after 2006 demand will outstrip supply as the economy continues to improve. Yes you can sneer at me for buying an expensive new boat but when reviewing my used options it was a no brainer. The new boat market is still struggling and dealers are willing to move them at lower prices than they would like to. That will likely change with time but I would not poo poo new.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Well said, Comrade!


You really have no sense of proportion do you Mark? Black or white (or red) are the only colours you can see.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

SloopJonB said:


> You really have no sense of proportion do you Mark? Black or white (or red) are the only colours you can see.


I like the "red, white and blue" colors. I don't know any 'mega-rich' people personally, but I do hear they contribute great deals of money to charities and foundations. I guess I'm a filthy capitalist pig rather than a "redistributionist". (just sayin...) {has this thread deteriorated to the point where it should be in 'Off Topic'?}


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I know a very wealthy man. One day he said to me, "I could lie to you but I am really rich!" I thought that was funny and,,,honest. He has been a huge contributor ot the Spike Perry Memorial Scholarship Fund. He has been very generous to me. He is accountable for a lot of guys having good, steady jobs right now. As far as I am coincerned he is the salt of the earth. He started with nothing. He's my friend. One of his hobbies is helping students who need financial aid.

I just take each guy as an individual and I try not to prejudge them.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Larry Ellison is a Philanthropist of huge proportions.


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

Ooh, ooh, ooh. I've got the answer! Because you can?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Nothing wrong with being rich, in fact it's great - lots more people should be. I am simply contemptuous of people who live like & spend their money like pimps & drug lords.

Your grandmother was right - breeding counts. 

Now, how about we discuss "Why commission a brand new, custom designed $1,500,000 sailboat?"


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

Sooo,

Personally, I need people to buy $150,000 boats, and more.

I really, really need them.

If they were not around, I would not be able to buy that used $30-40,000 boat in twenty years.

The life blood of a used xxxxx market is new xxx sales.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

SloopJonB said:


> Nothing wrong with being rich, in fact it's great - lots more people should be. I am simply contemptuous of people who live like & spend their money like pimps & drug lords.
> 
> Your grandmother was right - breeding counts.
> 
> Now, how about we discuss "Why commission a brand new, custom designed $1,500,000 sailboat?"


I dislike snobbery as well.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Secretary of State John Kerry commissioned a 7 million dollar yacht. He grew up in a wealthy family. Why should he settle for lesser yacht?


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## sanssouci (Sep 3, 2013)

Why buy a new sail boat? Ask why buy a new house? Some people want someplace that no one else has never used. Some people would buy that used boat, and replace the interior, the sails, the electronics, and anything else they wanted, they would make new panels rather than patch old ones. It is a matter for each person to choose. I wish I could buy a new boat, but for now, I will keep making mine a little more like a new one.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

I don't see the mega rich as mega greedy. For sure there are some Gordon Gekko, money never sleeps, types, but most are more interested in making legacy than more money.

Buffet and Gates are giving mounds of money away. In Buffet's case more is being given away than he is keeping. For him, at least, life is now about self actualization. It's not about what he is( billionaire rich guy) it's about who he is (philamprothist who makes a difference). 

While downstream on the net worth scale you've got people like Oprah opening schools in Africa and Angelina Jolie adopting underprivileged kids.

That said, these people live like few can. Well except for Buffet, who tries to maintain a grounded lifestyle, usually.

Now, if you want to talk about the kids of the mega rich? Yeah, there is a point to be made there about disgusting. Starting with Paris Hilton, these people are doing little more than just taking up space.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

Seaduction said:


> Secretary of State John Kerry commissioned a 7 million dollar yacht. He grew up in a wealthy family. Why should he settle for lesser yacht?


shhhhhh...nobody is supposed to talk about this, he is part of the ruling class in the state media endorsed party.

Did it again...sorry, couldnt resist


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Seaduction said:


> Secretary of State John Kerry commissioned a 7 million dollar yacht. He grew up in a wealthy family. Why should he settle for lesser yacht?


He's "good" rich. He's a Democrat. He can do whatever he wants.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Hmm, does anyone else see a bit of irony in this thread?

Even if you are one of the cedar bucket, only buy used boat parts, frugal crowd you are still enjoying a sport that much of the population couldn't even dream of enjoying.

There is a certain relativity to terms like wealthy.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Seaduction said:


> $150000 loan for 15 years at 3 to 4 % interest rate is monthly payment of $1000-$1100 per month, depending on the rate obtained. (Not 1500 for 20 years.)


...and $1100 per month for 15 years is $198,000. 

The guy's point is that the person that finances $150K for their RV/Boat will be paying an extra $48K for their shiny new RV/boat. They will still be paying for the RV/boat in 15 years, when it is no longer new and shiny. Maintenance and storage is extra. And, because they have a loan, they may have to buy more insurance than they want to cover the loan. If that person unexpectedly finds themselves out of a job (like me), that extra $48K will become very near and dear to them.

My 35 foot boat is 26 years old this year.

Three years ago, the guy that I bought my boat from had a loan on her, and he had to pay to have the keel bolts replaced when she failed the first survey. I _think _that once the deal settled, he netted about $2K. I _know _that he paid well over $2K in interest to the bank over the 5 years that he owned her. Let's not talk about the maintenance / sails / vacuflush head / engine rebuild / storage / etc. that he also had to pay over the 5 years he owned her. Oh yeah, I forgot that the broker got a commission on the boat too... The guy must have been in a hole.

She's not shiny and new, but she also didn't cost me $48K _*to purchase*_, let alone finance... I paid cash for her.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Thats the sort of stuff said by someone without ambition.
> 
> Sorry it doesnt wash on me.
> 
> ...


... and a lot of good luck.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

One can get into the finance or not, Either way, if you can qualify the boat as a 2nd home, you can write off the interest! So that may have been a factor in some folks reasons to finance the boat. EVEN IF they could have paid cash! Not a true right or wrong here! more of a pro con depending upon view etc.

marty


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Group9 said:


> He's "good" rich. He's a Democrat. He can do whatever he wants.


That cleared up a lot of "issues" for me.


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## steve77 (Aug 5, 2010)

Seaduction said:


> Secretary of State John Kerry commissioned a 7 million dollar yacht. He grew up in a wealthy family. Why should he settle for lesser yacht?


This thing cost $7 million??? Whatever floats your boat I guess...


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Of any place in the world one should look at the USA for the spirit. Only 17% of American millionairs had money to begin with.
> 
> The rest made it.
> 
> By work.


I saw an analysis of how US millionaires made their money. Most of them had done it by having a good business idea, and having that vision shared by a second person. You need two of you to make it work. Think of Apple, Microsoft, whoever - there were usually at least 2 people with a shared vision.

Very few had done it on their own, either through business or investment.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

MarkSF said:


> I saw an analysis of how US millionaires made their money. Most of them had done it by having a good business idea, and having that vision shared by a second person. You need two of you to make it work. Think of Apple, Microsoft, whoever - there were usually at least 2 people with a shared vision.
> 
> Very few had done it on their own, either through business or investment.


The most comprehensive study of millionaires within the United States was done by a University of Georgia professor. He lays it all out in his book, "The Millionaire Next Door"

Contrary to popular belief that you have to invent a new mousetrap to become rich, most millionaires in this country are those who either build or service the mousetraps invented by others. Or, those who provide a service to homeowners.

One guy i know is a roofer. Not only no college degree, but no high school diploma. His company books about 5 million a year in sales. A classic small business. His take, about a million dollars a year. I've got a basement waterproofing guy who does even better. While that income doesn't buy them a house in Bill Gate's neighborhood, it does give them a million dollar net worth.

Wanna hear about my car dealer client, who, starting with one Ford dealership built a network with over a billion dollars in sales today? I didn't think so, but you get the point.

You don't have to invent a better mousetrap or even a previously unimagined one, you just need to be able to compete.

That said, the difference between any of us who haven't gotten rich off an invention and those who have: They took the next step!


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

The common held view that the "American Dream" is accessible to all is misguided today. America has a very distinct "class" society focus on social class and wealth.

"Social class is probably the single most important variable in society. From womb to tomb it correlates with almost all other social characteristics of people that we can measure. Affluent expectant mothers are more likely to get prenatal care, enjoy general health, fitness, and nutrition. Many poor and working-class mothers-to-be first contact the medical profession in the last month… Rich babies come out healthier and go home to very different situations… Poor babies are more likely to have high levels of poisonous lead in their environments and their bodies… Rich children benefit from suburban schools that spend two to three times as much money per student as schools in inner cities or rural areas. Differences such as these help account for the higher school-dropout rate among poor children.”


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

TJC45 said:


> The most comprehensive study of millionaires within the United States was done by a University of Georgia professor. He lays it all out in his book, "The Millionaire Next Door"
> 
> Contrary to popular belief that you have to invent a new mousetrap to become rich, most millionaires in this country are those who either build or service the mousetraps invented by others. Or, those who provide a service to homeowners.
> 
> ...


There are approx. 5 million millionaires in the USA. That is about 1.75% of the population.

Is everyone else just too stupid, lazy or timid to "take the next step"?


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

How We Learn: Research, News & Perspectives: REPORTS: From the Pew Economic Mobility Project

"Contrary to American beliefs about equality of opportunity, a child's economic position is heavily influenced by that of his or her parents. Forty-two percent of children born to parents in the bottom fifth of the income distribution remain in the bottom, while 39% born to parents in the top fifth remain at the top,"


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

TJC45 said:


> The most comprehensive study of millionaires within the United States was done by a University of Georgia professor. He lays it all out in his book, "The Millionaire Next Door"
> 
> Contrary to popular belief that you have to invent a new mousetrap to become rich, most millionaires in this country are those who either build or service the mousetraps invented by others. Or, those who provide a service to homeowners.
> 
> ...


It's amazing how easy it is to accumulate a million dollars in assets with the slightest bit of dedication and application of steady work, in this country (we had a cleaning woman at a university near here who shocked many people when she left a huge sum of money to the university when she died). My brother is a partner and CPA in the largest accounting firm in our state and constantly tells me I would be surprised at who some of the wealthiest people in our area are, and some of the people who everyone thinks are wealthy, but are not.

Just take the average smoker, and do some calculations on how much money they would have if they had invested the money they paid for cigarettes over 40 years, to see how even people of modest means could do well if they had the discipline and dedication, and the willingness to make a small sacrifice for it.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Group9 said:


> It's amazing how easy it is to accumulate a million dollars in assets with the slightest bit of dedication and application of steady work, in this country (we had a cleaning woman at a university near here who shocked many people when she left a huge sum of money to the university when she died). My brother is a partner and CPA in the largest accounting firm in our state and constantly tells me I would be surprised at who some of the wealthiest people in our area are, and some of the people who everyone thinks are wealthy, but are not.
> 
> Just take the average smoker, and do some calculations on how much money they would have if they had invested the money they paid for cigarettes over 40 years, to see how even people of modest means could do well if they had the discipline and dedication, and the willingness to make a small sacrifice for it.


Absolutely correct. I would change "how EASY it is" to how POSSIBLE it is - it ain't easy but it is totally doable by nearly anyone - or WAS anyway - I don't know how doable it will be for our kids with the employment market the way it is now.

Thankfully the vast majority of wealthy people in both our countries are of the type you describe and not the Paris Hiltons or Paul Allens with their grotesque, Marie Antoinette lifestyles.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

steve77 said:


> This thing cost $7 million??? Whatever floats your boat I guess...


Hey Smales...my dinghy is bigger than your whole boat


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Group9 said:


> He's "good" rich. He's a Democrat. He can do whatever he wants.


And.... his momma was a Forbes and then later he married Theresa Heinz.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

MarkSF said:


> I saw an analysis of how US millionaires made their money. Most of them had done it by having a good business idea, and having that vision shared by a second person. You need two of you to make it work. Think of Apple, Microsoft, whoever - there were usually at least 2 people with a shared vision.
> 
> Very few had done it on their own, either through business or investment.


Any link to the "source" of that analysis?


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Don0190 said:


> That cleared up a lot of "issues" for me.


Me too.:laugher


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

steve77 said:


> This thing cost $7 million??? Whatever floats your boat I guess...


And had it built in New Zealand....


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

blutoyz said:


> Hey Smales...my dinghy is bigger than your whole boat


You know you've arrived when you have to kayak out to your dinghy in order to dinghy out to your yacht.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Seaduction said:


> Any link to the "source" of that analysis?


Try this one. It's an interesting read about wealth in the US.

The Millionaire Next Door: Thomas J. Stanley, William D. Danko: 9780671015206: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@41MJp0YtXsL

_The Millionaire Next Door,_ 
by Thomas J. Stanley , William D. Danko


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Seaduction said:


> And had it built in New Zealand....


You mean, like the 'American' AC 72 that just retained the Cup for 'America' ?

Hey, at least Kerry - unlike Ellison and the overwhelming percentage of American large yacht owners - flies the Stars & Stripes from the stern of his yacht...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I doubt he would if he wasn't in politics - it costs a lot more to have it registered in the States. None of those people are much interested in paying their share of taxes.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> I doubt he would if he wasn't in politics - it costs a lot more to have it registered in the States. None of those people are much interested in paying their share of taxes.


Maybe, maybe not...

There are still a few Americans of true character, who made their fortunes in the USA, and are willing to take the hit in taxes, simply because they think it's the right thing to do...

Roger Penske, for example...


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

One of the things that is required from the Jones Act is all American flagged (commercial) vessels must be manned by union crews. That goes all the way down to maids, busboys and dishwashers. That is why you do not see very many US flagged cruise ships and large mega yachts that sport a large contingent of “domestic” help. Makes no sense for a yacht that is used on an occasional basis to have a full time union crew.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

If I had the money, I would buy me a brand new Morris M-36 in a heartbeat


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Group9 said:


> Try this one. It's an interesting read about wealth in the US.
> 
> The Millionaire Next Door: Thomas J. Stanley, William D. Danko: 9780671015206: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> ...


Great read for those interested in wealth creation and the buying habits of the wealthy in the United States. There are several follow on books as well.

As a financial advisor I find Staney's books to be priceless. To manage other people's money you first have to find people with money to manage. From there it's climbing the wall of trust to get a seat at the table. Stanley's books are a treasure trove of usable information.

For example in his first book, the one you have shown us here, Stanley tells us why most millionaires won't give you a ride in their limo. Why? Because most don't own or drive around in Limos! At the time that book was written the vehicle most owned by american millionaires was the Jeep Grand Cherokee.

A financial advisor looking for the money might run computer screens matching affluent zip codes to Jeep GC owners and then target market to the names on that list.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

A few quotes from notable people:
'My goal wasn't to make a ton of money. It was to build good computers.'
Steve Wozniak

"When I was 19, I made my first good week's pay as a club musician. It was enough money for me to quit my job at the factory and still pay the rent and buy some food. I freaked."
Billy Joel

"Business is a good game - lots of competition and a minimum of rules. You keep score with money."
Atari founder Nolan Bushnell


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Maybe, maybe not...
> 
> There are still a few Americans of true character, who made their fortunes in the USA, and are willing to take the hit in taxes, simply because they think it's the right thing to do...
> 
> Roger Penske, for example...


Penske is a class act - from racing driver to mega rich, all on his own. Notice he also has a reasonable major yacht, not a fleet of 300 footers, which he could easily afford.

He's an excellent example of how to do "rich" right.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

GeorgeB said:


> One of the things that is required from the Jones Act is all American flagged (commercial) vessels must be manned by union crews. That goes all the way down to maids, busboys and dishwashers. That is why you do not see very many US flagged cruise ships and large mega yachts that sport a large contingent of "domestic" help. Makes no sense for a yacht that is used on an occasional basis to have a full time union crew.


The operative word there is "commercial". The Jones act does not apply to private yachts, no matter how big the staff. If they are chartered for profit that may change, probably depending on how the charter was structured..


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

TJC45 said:


> Great read for those interested in wealth creation and the buying habits of the wealthy in the United States. There are several follow on books as well.
> 
> As a financial advisor I find Staney's books to be priceless. To manage other people's money you first have to find people with money to manage. From there it's climbing the wall of trust to get a seat at the table. Stanley's books are a treasure trove of usable information.
> 
> ...


As I said in an earlier post, it's good that the vast majority of wealthy people in both our countries are like that. I doubt anyone but a few fanatics has anything but admiration for them. I know and have known a number of them - discreetly producing and creating wealth for themselves and others.

It's the ones that live like pimps, old time Arab princes or Russian kleptocrats that cause the "hatred" of the rich. Like that friend of Romney's with the private 18 hole golf course and that idiot Romney saying "I want EVERYONE to live like this".

The new gold standard in "Let them eat cake" stupidity.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

GeorgeB said:


> One of the things that is required from the Jones Act is all American flagged (commercial) vessels must be manned by union crews. That goes all the way down to maids, busboys and dishwashers. That is why you do not see very many US flagged cruise ships and large mega yachts that sport a large contingent of "domestic" help. Makes no sense for a yacht that is used on an occasional basis to have a full time union crew.


Not too many of the larger yachts I run into are being used on an "occasional basis'  Nor, is there any requirement that the crew necessarily be full-time...

but you're basically right, and indeed it's even quite a bit more complicated than that:

The Cost of American Megayacht Ownership

Yeah, even for a guy like Paul Allen, a million or so in additional operational or compliance costs per annum adds up to Real Money pretty quickly, and could really crimp his style  (On second thought, the fact that Allen also owns a smaller 303-footer, and a 199-foot 'Weekender', the cost of paying American crews could REALLY spiral out of control quickly)

That little Merritt tethered to the 'swim platform' of OCTOPUS is probably worth at least $4 million, alone...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> Penske is a class act - from racing driver to mega rich, all on his own. Notice he also has a reasonable major yacht, not a fleet of 300 footers, which he could easily afford.
> 
> He's an excellent example of how to do "rich" right.


I had the great privilege of working in association with Roger's IndyCar team for a 18 years... Without question, one of the most impressive people I've ever met, and the loyalty and respect he commands from all those who work for him really has to be seen, to be appreciated...

He possesses most of the qualities as a leader and executive, that I wish we could find in our Presidents...

But of course, he's WAY too smart to ever consider getting into politics...


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Mitt Romney at a private fundraiser last month at the house of Papa John's founder John Schnatter:

What a welcome, what a place this is. My goodness. Who would have imagined pizza could build this, you know that? This is really something. Don’t you love this country? What a home this is, what grounds these are, the pool, the golf course. You know if a Democrat were here he’d look around and say no one should live like this, you know? Republicans come here and say everyone should live like this, all right. This is a real tribute to America, to entrepreneurship.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I guess when everyone in America has their own golf course (is there even enough land for that?) they can just have all the work, groundskeeping etc. done by illegal aliens.

No, wait....... They've all been deported back home in this Republican paradise.

Damn, how are we going to get the grass cut?

Maybe if we bake a few cakes for them to eat.....


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> I guess when everyone in America has their own golf course (is there even enough land for that?) they can just have all the work, groundskeeping etc. done by illegal aliens.
> 
> No, wait....... They've all been deported back home in this Republican paradise.
> 
> ...


Yup, that does blow a pretty big hole in his Theory of Self-Deportation, alright..

Simple solution - re-training for furloughed Federal workers as landscapers, Win/Win all around... 

One of the more sobering pictures painted in the book I mentioned earlier - GRAND AMBITION, about the building of the megayacht LADY LINDA - was one where Von Allmen and one of the head guys at Trinity were whining about illegal immigration, and how it would be the downfall of America...

Completely lost on them, was the fact that the most hellish, hazardous work to be done during the construction of such yachts, was the final fairing of the hull and superstructure, a job that involves the repeated application and sanding of highly toxic fairing compounds...

The sort of job that at Trinity, pretty much was being done exclusively by undocumented immigrant workers from Central America...


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

SloopJonB said:


> I guess when everyone in America has their own golf course (is there even enough land for that?) they can just have all the work, groundskeeping etc. done by illegal aliens.
> 
> No, wait....... They've all been deported back home in this Republican paradise.
> 
> ...


I just wanted the full quote without the "idiot" reference. Your signature says it all.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I see your point - the idiocy of that situation and statement IS really self evident isn't it?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Simple solution - re-training for furloughed Federal workers as landscapers, Win/Win all around... .


Won't work - they'll all have their OWN golf courses in the Romney/Republican Nirvana and they'll all be looking for groundsmen too.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Penske's an interesting guy. Built an automotive empire. Like many didn't start on the bottom wrung to get that done. But you can't argue with results! he definately took the ball and ran with it! And unlike other rich kid success stories, at least he doesn't a TV show where he fires people. 

More recently, Roger has adopted the spirit of the Shine runners where bending a rule or two is the way it's done. He was caught up in his own NASCAR scandal at Richmond. While relative to what happened at Waltrip racing during the same race it could be called scandal lite, fixing a race is still fixing a race. And, ethically it is what it is.

Radio traffic indicates that Penske, on the roof of the grandstand with the spotters at Richmond, cut a deal with Front Row motorsports to allow his driver to get ahead of Front Row's driver. Shortly after the back and forth radio communication took place Front Row's driver slowed down allowing Penske's driver to overtake him. Something he'd been unable to do previously. The payoff would be future tech support to Front Row. Something Front Row had sought from Penske in the past. 

Penske defends himself by saying there was no direct radio communications between himself and Front Row's crew chief. Yet, the driver of Front Row's car could hear all the traffic between his spotter and his crew chief where the crew chief is confirming that the deal is being proffered by Penske himself. The spotter saying "The captain is standing right here next to me." Once confirmed, Front Row's car suddenly got slower. Penske's car just had to keep on doing what it had been doing. it finished in front of Front Row's car. 

Gee, a fixed race in NASCAR? Who'd a thunk it? NASCAR didn't buy Penske's claim of innocence and sanctioned both teams. Penske being the billionaire he is didn't get the book thrown at him as did Michael Waltrip, Michael Waltrip Racing, who did pretty much the same thing.

I guess the upshot is it's good that he really does get NASCAR where cheating is an accepted part of the program.( accepted by the teams, not the officials) After-all they started as outlaws! Penske got rich by understanding how the game is played!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Penske was born pretty middle class, maybe upper middle. Certainly not a silver spoon type like Trump.

I'm surprised that he would cheat that blatantly. Of course there are degrees of what could be called cheating - back in the Trans Am days when Donohue drove for him he came up with the famous "unobtanium" line when asked what some of his Camaro parts were made of.

Like Smokey Yunick famously said "If the rules don't say I can't do it, I have to assume I CAN".

That said, the incident you describe sounds just plain sleazy.

Disappointing.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

I won't take anything away from Roger's business building career. They guy came an extraordinary distance. He coulda quit building after he bought his first Chevy dealership and lived a very comfortable life. But that was only a next step in mega building.

How much of a leg up did he get? As a teenager he was fixing and flipping race cars. Not something that can be done on paper route money. And in his 20s bought his first car dealership. Car dealerships cost a lot more today, but relatively speaking not something most 20 somethings could swing back then. Still, it was his vision and his drive ( no pun intended) that built a billion dollar empire. That and Penske Blue! Which, IMO, is still the best color for a Corvette!

As for the scandal - yeah that's disapppointing. In times past, jockeys and horse owners have gone to jail or worse for doing the same thing. But, if you take it in context of the sport, within NASCAR there is almost bragging rights about who can break the rules and not get caught.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

TJC45 said:


> Penske Blue! Which, IMO, is still the best color for a Corvette!


Especially with yellow wheels. 



> As for the scandal - yeah that's disappointing. In times past, jockeys and horse owners have gone to jail or worse for doing the same thing. But, if you take it in context of the sport, within NASCAR there is almost bragging rights about who can break the rules and not get caught.


If there was the same kind of betting on NASCAR as horse racing they probably WOULD have gone to jail.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

..... and so a thread " Why buy a brand new $150,000 sailboat? " looks destined for PRWG. Now does that realy make any sense at all ? 

Please people ... leave the politics for Off Topic. The other thread is about to be moved (or may already have been moved) and so will this one if need be. 

Once upon a time one of my fellow mods took a mixed up thread ike this one and moved the political posts to Off Topic. For this he was publicly castigated and has vowed not to go through that again. Smart fellow. 

Ergo, if the OT stuff continues this thread will go PRWG holus bolus.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

Thanks TDW


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

Thanks to those that buy new boats. This way others can have nice used boats. I don't begrudge anyone for buying a new boat; in fact i envy them at times. When i win the power ball i'll get my custom boat. 

Sometimes it makes sense. I met a couple from NYC in a new 57 footer ($840k). They did the math. A new house in NYC, $800k; taxes $25k(or more). It was about the same to live on a new boat on the water! Of course it didn't hurt that they had some money as well.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

tdw said:


> PRWG


????????????????????????????????????


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Don0190 said:


> ????????????????????????????????????


AKA "The Sewer" - *P*olitics, *R*eligion, *W*ar, *G*overnment.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

Everything is relative to our own expenses. If I were a rich man I would have the best equipment available. But I am not a rich man so I got the best I could. C&C30 MK1 built in 1981 I had to put an engine in her and a bunch of other work. Mostly time but money too. But I have sailed her 27 times now in 19 months. No one in my marina takes there boat out as much as I do. No one spends as much time with their boats as I do with mine. I am in love with the whole process. 
I got her on the cheap at first. But she was not free buy any means. In this process I have learned her' every nook and cranny. I know the power she has now. I installed the engine myself. I know how hard it is to get the shift linkage set right. I know the stuffing box well. The cutlass bearing was rebuilt. It's a labor of love. I would never know a new boat as I know this boat. My love affair has a flavor that is real. Not like something you would ever fine "buying new". 
We have had a chance to fall in love. I know her and she knows me. She and I will be together for life.
To each his own "NEW/USED" for me it's a no brainer...
See ya on the water.


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