# Annapolis bans composting toilets for cruisers on hook?



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I'm not a member of SSCA, so don't have access to the information linked here. I got this off another site. Anyone have more information?

_The following report courtesy of [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>

Subject: Annapolis Harbor Disallows Composting Head Use for Long Term Stays
Posted by: Kathy Barth on 9/8/2018 at 10:30 AM
View/reply online <http://ssca.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=2161&club_id=710182&item_id=816260&message_id=2048439> Reply via email to: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]?subject=re:%20Annapolis%20Harbor%20Disallows%20Composting%20Head%20Use%20for%20Long%20Term%20Stays%20%3C%3C$20484391856$%3E%3E> Reply via email to: Kathy Barth ([email protected]) <mailto:[email protected]?subject=re:%20Annapolis%20Harbor%20Disallows%20Composting%20Head%20Use%20for%20Long%20Term%20Stays>
I spent an hour or so with Beth Bellas, Annapolis Harbormaster, Thursday. Lots of good information which I'll write up for a longer article, but here's the official statement.

Boats with composting heads are welcome in City Waters. They may transit through, stay at private or public docks for as long as they like People with composting heads may not stay in City waters ON ANCHOR OR ON A MOORING longer than one (1) week. Composting heads are not designed for uninterrupted use, and when users dispose of the solids in our public trash cans, this creates a public health concern. Users are also tempted to dump urine overboard, in violation of state and local laws and ordinances.

IMHO, as long as we have a specified policy, our Clean Wake obligation is to follow the local policy. I looked into the manufacturers specs a bit and I did see a reference that they were not recommended for uninterrupted use as there isn't sufficient time (typically) for solid waste to compost in that scenario. I have found none of them to be Coast Guard approved so far, so we will want to keep an eye on the use of these in other waters as time goes by.

The message is that Annapolis has been wrestling with all of the challenges that a municipal facility runs into with City Councils and funding. They are and have been trying to take care of boaters and their home waters by enforcing regulations already on the books. Lots of derelict vessels are gone.. Sunken mooring balls have been marked, but legally they cant do anything with private moorings in their jurisdiction. They are making an effort to welcome us and communicate with us when something changes. Good work is underway.

Kathy Barth
Five & Dime_


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

This is totally BS..obviously the writer of the article has no experience with a composting head..


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

It takes about a year for a composting toilets output to become benign so if it can't be discharged into the municipal sanitary sewer or marinas holding tank then it needs other sanitary means of disposal. 

Perhaps more needs to be done to setup final composting stations for emptying the composting heads into to allow the process to complete. Is it a roadblock or opportunity for some enterprising folks to provide a solution?


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

SeaStar58 said:


> It takes about a year for a composting toilets output to become benign so if it can't be discharged into the municipal sanitary sewer or marinas holding tank then it needs other sanitary means of disposal.
> 
> Perhaps more needs to be done to setup final composting stations for emptying the composting heads into to allow the process to complete. Is it a roadblock or opportunity for some enterprising folks to provide a solution?


*How did you dispose of your children diapers?*

For this reason, the original argument is 5 miles off-base. There are no regulations in any US municipality that I am aware of (and I looked as part of a project) restricting the disposal of diapers or WAG bags in municipal garbage, so until there are--and there won't be because people like disposable diapers--then there is simply nothing to talk about from a legal perspective. The harbormaster can say anything he wants--he lacks jurisdiction.

As for the statement that composting heads are not USCG approved, that is an obvious red herring, because type III devices are not certified. They simply must be zero-discharge. Only type I and type II are certified. Technically, folks are in violation dumping urine, but that is trivial and they know it. If they want to require shore disposal or pump-out, that is a separate subject.

---

And I don't even much like composting heads. I just don't see a violation.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm guessing they aren't finding diapers in the shoreside dumpsters as much as they are finding desiccated human feces and a whole bunch of drying media. 

Agree, they may have no wide jurisdiction, but I would love to know more about the problem. Cruisers can do some real dumb things, not at all limited to having a composter. I've seen trash stuffed into the convenience parkside cans designed to accept a coffee cup, not a 13 gallon bag of trash. Someone must be abusing the system.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> ... Someone must be abusing the system.


An unfortunately common theme in regulation....

A designated can would be a simple solution. I have a call in.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

I suspect this will get challenged in the courts.
How are they going to keep track?


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## chicory83 (Dec 21, 2009)

pdqaltair said:


> *How did you dispose of your children diapers?*
> Technically, folks are in violation dumping urine, but that is trivial and they know it.


I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. While it is true that urine has virtually no bacteria and will not contaminate water supplies with e-coli and other nasty pathogens, it is none the less a fertilizer containing lots of nitrogen and moderate amounts of phosphorous. If you dump fertilizer into the water supply it tends to promote the growth of algae which can in turn result in reduced dissolved oxygen levels. This can negatively impact marine life.

In addition, many of the medications we take are passed through urine, from caffeine to birth control hormones to antidepressants. Dumping these straight into the water supply is not good for the environment either as they tend to have negative effects on the endocrine systems of marine life and can specifically disrupt reproduction.

As our planet warms and sea levels rise one would hope that we have learned the lesson that there is no such thing as "it's just piss in the ocean." All our individual choices about what we dump in our water cycle matter because they do add up.


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## jeremiahblatz3 (Jul 3, 2018)

chicory83 said:


> In addition, many of the medications we take are passed through urine, from caffeine to birth control hormones to antidepressants. Dumping these straight into the water supply is not good for the environment either as they tend to have negative effects on the endocrine systems of marine life and can specifically disrupt reproduction.


FWIW, for about half of medications, sewage treatment plants don't remove them anyway: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/only-half-of-drugs-removed-by-sewage-treatment/


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

chicory83 said:


> In addition, many of the medications we take are passed through urine, from caffeine to birth control hormones to antidepressants. Dumping these straight into the water supply is not good for the environment either as they tend to have negative effects on the endocrine systems of marine life and can specifically disrupt reproduction.


I recently heard a shown on NPR about this very thing happening in Seattle where the oysters? were showing signs of accumulating medications some people take on a daily basis in their meat. The point of the discussion had to deal with the disposal of effluent from water treatment plants that treat sewerage from the "public" sewer systems before it's dumped into the river, bay or ocean. Presently there is no way to "treat" the sewerage to remove the medical by products.
I'm not an expert but I suspect that this issue is happening everywhere along the coast.

I'm not quite sure how boaters that dump urine overboard can be considered the problem here.
Just saying....


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Of all the things that cause pollution from multiple human and animal sources, I think that urine is the least worrisome.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I understand their goal...no sewage dumped overboard.
Marathon..an example..has a station for cruisers to dump compost...or whatever when they come to marina dock. 
So they have that available.
There will always be people who disregard so youll never hit 100%.
But close is a good thing.
Its the crowded and non flushing harbors


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## chicory83 (Dec 21, 2009)

I am not suggesting that urine from composting toilets is THE problem, the BIGGEST problem, or that medications are not coming from other sources. My point is that we all have to be mindful of what we dump into the world's water systems. Individually our contributions may seem insignificant, but collectively they are. There has been a long running thread here about refuse being washed down river to the Chesapeake Bay and the polluters have been widely pilloried. You can be certain that many of the folks who dumped each individual piece of refuse felt like it was insignificant, just as many folks think that dumping the urine from their composting toilet is insignificant. My personal approach is in all things try to do as little harm to the environment as I reasonably can.

The half life of medications varies widely and with environment. For some the time delay and interaction with bacteria as they pass through a sewage treatment plant will reduce the amount that makes it into the broader ecosystem, which makes it worth disposing of urine properly in my mind.

This is certainly a problem that is very widespread. 10 or 15 years ago a student of mine did a study which found significant levels of hormones from birth control in Meddybemps Lake in Eastern Maine, so yes, this problem is everywhere.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

This policy statement from the city contains many incorrect or false statements. It’s disappointing they would enact a policy aimed at composting heads based on false information. 

I suspect the real reason is that they’ve had a few bad composting head apples who have dumped into small trash cans. As would be typical, the few ruin it for the many…


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chicory83 said:


> ...Individually our contributions may seem insignificant, but collectively they are.


At what point is that the case? Every breath you take incrementally affects the environment.



> You can be certain that many of the folks who dumped each individual piece of refuse felt like it was insignificant


It's not in evidence in that thread that anyone intentionally dumped anything. Most of the refuse looked like trees and branches.



> My personal approach is in all things try to do as little harm to the environment as I reasonably can.


Mine too and that's the way it should be. However, I strongly prefer science to identify matters of concentration and not rely on emotional intuition as to what harm means.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> This policy statement from the city contains many incorrect or false statements. It's disappointing they would enact a policy aimed at composting heads based on false information.
> 
> I suspect the real reason is that they've had a few bad composting head apples who have dumped into small trash cans. As would be typical, the few ruin it for the many&#8230;


My guess is they are usually dumping overboard when full at 0 dark :30
Make a station available and 'some' will use it.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

pdqaltair said:


> *How did you dispose of your children diapers?*


A few ounces of waste a few minutes old wrapped up in a taped shut absorbent infants diaper in a tied off disposal bag is quite different from someone dumping a gallon or so of days old concentrated media into a dumpster or litter basket out on the street. Many public restrooms will also have a Changing Station with disposal bags and designated containers with odor treatment for children's diapers too. There would not be a reaction like this if people who use the composting heads in that area were not being poor guests and creating a nuisance.

I truly doubt it was all users of composting heads that were problematic however to generate this type of knee jerk reaction it had to be enough for authorities to take notice. Its usually the activities of just a few bad apples that make it hard for everyone else.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SeaStar58 said:


> A few ounces of waste a few minutes old wrapped up in a taped shut absorbent infants diaper in a tied off disposal bag is quite different from someone dumping a gallon or so of days old concentrated media into a dumpster or litter basket out on the street. Many public restrooms will also have a Changing Station with disposal bags and designated containers with odor treatment for children's diapers too. There would not be a reaction like this if people who use the composting heads in that area were not being poor guests and creating a nuisance.
> 
> I truly doubt it was all users of composting heads that were problematic however to generate this type of knee jerk reaction it had to be enough for authorities to take notice. Its usually the activities of just a few bad apples that make it hard for everyone else.


I disagree with your characterization of diapers (and how about 'wag bags'), but fully agree with what has likely caused this reaction: a few idiots abusing the system, ruining it for everyone.

I'm curious to know how many negative incidents this city has seen. Since it is so localized, and apparently so large a problem, a better solution would be to install a bin for the semi-composted material. Charge a fee, just like for other pump outs. Simple.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

SeaStar58 said:


> A few ounces of waste a few minutes old wrapped up in a taped shut absorbent infants diaper in a tied off disposal bag ...


I'm no scientist but this seems way worse from an ecological standpoint to be disposing of these individual diapers than to be dumping partly decomposed/composted feces into a landfill. Wonder which one hangs around longer.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I don't think the answer should be for the city to bear the expensive of having an additional bin, for so few users. Ever price the cost of a dumpster, with weekly service? I bet the users wouldn't bear that cost either. 

I'm speculating they are trying to reduce long term transients, period. That possible?


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Someone saw something and it pissed that someone off..that's the bottom line...


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

MikeOReilly said:


> I disagree with your characterization of diapers (and how about 'wag bags'), but fully agree with what has likely caused this reaction: a few idiots abusing the system, ruining it for everyone.
> 
> I'm curious to know how many negative incidents this city has seen. Since it is so localized, and apparently so large a problem, a better solution would be to install a bin for the semi-composted material. Charge a fee, just like for other pump outs. Simple.


There are bad apples using WAG Bags too. Its really poor form to empty the contents of the bag into a trash can especially considering the volume that can accumulate in the 5 gallon bucket many use for this purpose. Many probably still can recall the problems they had in New Orleans with disposing of the WAG Bags in hurricane shelters when the sewers ceased to function any longer. Personally I would empty the bag into the sewer dump station and rinse it out there before disposing of the bag in the trash while others will take the lazy route and just toss it into some poor guys dumpster and yes its an unpleasant job but I chose to bag it and took on that responsibility when I made that choice.

Disposable children's diapers have come a long way toward being biodegradable and odor resistant. I always used the biodegradable disposal bags and emptied the solid contents in a flush toilet whenever possible too before disposing of them and would usually dispose of them at home if there was not a diaper specific receptacle in the public restroom/facility I was visiting.

Not usually a real good solution for dealing with the Bad Apples unfortunately unless we turn into a surveillance society where we are monitored and recorded every moment of the day which we may be coming to anyway.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I don't think the answer should be for the city to bear the expensive of having an additional bin, for so few users. Ever price the cost of a dumpster, with weekly service? I bet the users wouldn't bear that cost either.


If the numbers are so small, then it is (or should be) a non-issue. If there are enough compost users in the area to make it a problem, then an appropriate-sized bin should be affordable.

SeaStar58: The issue with diapers is not the biodegradable nature of the material. (That's a different issue.) The issue is it is raw human feces, no matter how nice it smells. This is the same issue with "compost" effluent. I get that, and it's real. But the actual threat to public health is no worse with compost material.

Compost effluent should appear, smell, feel, like potting soil. It's not offensive to most people's senses. I still say this is far less offensive than a used diaper, used tampon, or a wag bag.

I agree, dumping compost material in the garbage steam is not a good idea. But it's not worse than many of these other inputs that we happily turn a blind eye to. As with most forms of pollution, it all comes down to volume and concentration.

The solution to pollution is dilution. If there really is the kind of compost user numbers to generate a public health concern, then the simple solution is to make a facility available to manage it. This is how we manage other Type III heads.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm speculating they are trying to reduce long term transients, period. That possible?


Unlikely that is a problem - Dec-April generally solves the long-term transient issue. Annapolis welcomes and thrives on the summer transients.

Mark


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

"I don't think the answer should be for the city to bear the expensive of having an additional bin, for so few users. Ever price the cost of a dumpster, with weekly service? I bet the users wouldn't bear that cost either."

I was not suggesting an additional bin, only that they specify a bin away from the park. In this case, the harbormaster's office is just 100 yards away.

"I'm speculating they are trying to reduce long term transients, period. That possible?"

No, that is not the case in Annapolis. They thrive on them. Unlike Florida, winter cold and ice repels boat bums, for want of a more politically correct term. [Since I can imagine myself on hard times, I don't begrudge people living on a boat and living cheaply, but you must keep it neat and try to fit in. That's just life.] But the Harbor master does patrol daily, log reg numbers and GPS, and check in on people. A pump-out is required every 5 days for a $5 fee. In fact, the city could charge a small fee for waste bags; that would be reasonable.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

In this other thread on CF I’m reading about how common FREE pump out services are along the east coast. Seems like a sensible approach; make it cheap (free!). Make it easy. 

Doesn’t seem like a big leap to include composting heads in these services.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

MikeOReilly said:


> In this other thread on CF I'm reading about how common FREE pump out services are along the east coast. Seems like a sensible approach; make it cheap (free!). Make it easy.
> 
> Doesn't seem like a big leap to include composting heads in these services.


In Maryland the state gave out grants for the equipment, along with the agreement the fee would not exceed $5. Many marinas offer it for free in the name of simplicity and being green. Mobil services are also economical here.

The obvious truth is that if it isn't cheap and more importantly, convenient, it just isn't going to happen.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

This is bullsh&t I just took out the head and that smelly thank out. Heading to the Annapolis boat show in a few weeks and getting me a natures head or an airhead and know they are passing stupid rules....


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Let's bear in mind that this kerfuffle is the result of disposing of waste in litter basket in a popular park. I think this is a problem that composting head users need to be a part of solving. Like many of the problems we face, we need to look at it from both sides. Waste should be disposed of properly and discretely, and it was not. or as AA said, "Someone saw something and it pissed that someone off...that's the bottom line...."

Let's focus on a solution to that. That will prevent the spread of rules. We need to self-police.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I wonder how they know who has a composter on board.

Other than that, it just silly!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Don0190 said:


> I wonder how they know who has a composter on board.
> 
> Other than that, it just silly!


Simple, they wait 5 days and bring their boat by for the required pump-out. If you refuse, then you're outta there. The mooring buoys are closely monitored to make sure everyone pays the fees. Keeping track of who's pumping out is a natural extension of that.

This is somewhat speculative. I've never stayed for more than 2 nights in a row.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

There are 5 million plus dirty diapers daily going in the trash and they are worried about a composting head that gets disposed every month or 2. How Many Diapers Does a Baby Use a Day? - New Kids Center


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> Simple, they wait 5 days and bring their boat by for the required pump-out. If you refuse, then you're outta there. The mooring buoys are closely monitored to make sure everyone pays the fees. Keeping track of who's pumping out is a natural extension of that.
> 
> This is somewhat speculative. I've never stayed for more than 2 nights in a row.


Yes, that is confirmed. There is a boat that monitors the mooring field and anchored boats.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

pdqaltair said:


> Let's bear in mind that this kerfuffle is the result of disposing of waste in litter basket in a popular park. I think this is a problem that composting head users need to be a part of solving. Like many of the problems we face, we need to look at it from both sides. Waste should be disposed of properly and discretely, and it was not. or as AA said, "Someone saw something and it pissed that someone off...that's the bottom line...."
> 
> Let's focus on a solution to that. That will prevent the spread of rules. We need to self-police.


That is usually the root of the problem with most things, that the very visible and obnoxious few that don't/won't practice self discipline make a problem for the rest of us who are good citizens and neighbors. How to self police these miscreants who have little to no regard for others is the tough part.

Unfortunately too many only give consideration to WIIFM and little else so if they can't see an immediate benefit to themselves then they simply won't comply and only are willing to do things that appear to have a high W(hats)II(t)F(or)M(e) factor. Raising the WIIFM factor so they can see the benefit and want to be responsible without rules, penalties and enforcement is going to require some planning along with a community effort. It will also need to be done in a manner that is not going to put the burden of financing this on already stressed tax payers.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sounds like Annapolis isn’t pushing back on long term transients, but to be clear, I was not referring to year round. They’ve defined this policy at one week. I was wondering if they didn’t want people staying for a month or two. Obviously, in the warmer months. I’ve heard of municipalities limiting moorage length before. 

I know some believe the composting heads will become the majority, but they certainly aren’t in my neck of the woods. There is a good argument to establish disposal rules: where, how, frequent, etc, just like the pumpout. However, they may find that harder to monitor, like the required pumpout I’m reading above. I suppose it possible that they simply do not have a dumpster location they consider appropriate for this. I don’t see a municipality incurring cost for what still seems like an exception: composters. 

Once they see them will greater frequency, that would change. For now, it’s just a real shame that someone abused this and started the ruckus.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> Yes, that is confirmed. There is a boat that monitors the mooring field and anchored boats.


What I don't understand is, why not just accommodate the compost head users instead of going to the draconian measure of banning them. They've already gone to the incredible expense and bother to have a mobile pump out facility. It would take very little effort to accommodate compost effluent with this service already in place. In fact, we've heard from one compost head user (is it here, or on another thread?) who already gets his _stamp of approval _every five days. So clearly it's possible.

I would really love to know the scale of the problem, or the number and type of incidents, which prompted such an apparent over-reaction. I have to wonder if those in charge are simply people, who for some irrational reason, are squeamish about the whole "composter head" concept.

In discussing CHs on line I've run into a few people who just viscerally despise the whole idea, and will create any number of rationalizations to justify their disgust response. Interestingly, I've never run into this reaction when discussing it with actual fellow cruisers. Most are quite interested when the subject comes up (which isn't that often). I've have a few decide to get one after they see ours in action.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Think some of this is predicated by geography. It’s a long way to get outside the 5 mile limit from Annapolis. Boats come in to enjoy the town not to go sailing so anchor/ moor and don’t move until time to leave. Pathogenic E.coli and other pathogens (shigella etc.) is a real risk both on land and in the bay. 
When cruising New England it’s no biggie to either get 5 m away from any land or use a pump out boat or pump out when you come in for fuel. In your home waters you can often pay for a flag. You put it out and the pump out boat comes to you even when you’re not on the boat. The municipalities are set up for a holding tank based system. Other systems are outliers. In the view of the municipality it seems they are viewed as a risk and expense. Given human nature one would think the solution would be for the pump out boat to collect compost on their rounds and dispose of it correctly. One would still have the issue of urine. However this would mean additional expense and complexity. Also pump out boat operators may object. It is far easier to ban composting heads solving the issue at no expense with little lost in the municipalities income from lost cruiser visitors traffic given the lack of numbers using composting heads.
If this is their thinking suspect the ban will stand and not unlikely become more prevalent in other locales.
I live in fear of municipalities generating rules concerning grey water as has been done in other countries.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

MikeOReilly said:


> I've have a few decide to get one after they see ours in action.


I trust you gave your audience a Rodinesque pose.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

According to the CDC there has been Pandemic Cholera impacting the world since 1961 and a few years back they even had a minor outbreak (a few confirmed cases of type Non-01 in 2013 which they quickly isolated and contained) in West Palm Beach at a very posh resort so they are with good cause acting out of an abundance of caution. 

Its not worse here in the US because of the pro-activeness of CDC and Municipalities in preventing outbreaks. I'd probably be more concerned if they were not being so proactive in preventing outbreaks here in the US.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

ScottUK said:


> I trust you gave your audience a Rodinesque pose.


Mike appears to be quite a Thinker but I do not believe we need him to demonstrate to that level of detail and granularity. Smooth Move might..... Never mind. ;>


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

ScottUK said:


> I trust you gave your audience a Rodinesque pose.


Of course:


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I suspect that this may be in part the result of an article in the local sailing magazine, "Spinsheet" on composting toilets. The person in the article describes emptying the composting compartment once a week, and describes the composting compartment as a galvanized bucket, and the 'Pee container' as a milk bottle. Most sources that i have seen suggest that a week is not adequate time for waste to 'compost' and of course the most recent deposits are not going to be a week old. I don't know how you would add it to the effluent on the Pumpout boat, but there might be a way. (Then again what do people do with self-contained 'port-a-poti' type heads) Similarly, in theory there should be a way to bring the equipment ashore and safely empty it in a toilet. 

Pollution in the harbor has become a real concern. Certainly a lot more than it was when the City's sewage treatment plant had an outfall directly in to the Bay near the mouth of Back Creek. Wind driven currents can keep the harbor from flushing properly and in certain winds visible debris builds up in Ego Alley and Up in Spa Creek. So while at this point, no one intentionally swims in the harbor, or gathers crabs or oysters, the knee jerked and the rules were written. 

The City is pretty responsive to mail. So if you think that you can make a cogent case on why composting heads should not be banned or how to mitigate the effects without banning them, then you might want to drop the City a note. 

Jeff


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Rather than making an argument up-front, maybe someone should first ask what events/concerns/data led to the new policy. I’d be curious to hear the facts instead of the well intentioned “this must be why” speculation.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

TakeFive said:


> Rather than making an argument up-front, maybe someone should first ask what events/concerns/data led to the new policy. I'd be curious to hear the facts instead of the well intentioned "this must be why" speculation.


Point well taken. The article included the Harbor Master's name. Maybe someone should call her.

Jeff


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> Point well taken. The article included the Harbor Master's name. Maybe someone should call her.
> 
> Jeff


Out of town until next week. I spoke with several others in the office before making my posts.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

pdqaltair said:


> Out of town until next week. I spoke with several others in the office before making my posts.


That is really great that you tried to get more information on this.

Jeff


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> I suspect that this may be in part the result of an article in the local sailing magazine, "Spinsheet" on composting toilets. The person in the article describes emptying the composting compartment once a week, and describes the composting compartment as a galvanized bucket, and the 'Pee container' as a milk bottle. Most sources that i have seen suggest that a week is not adequate time for waste to 'compost' and of course the most recent deposits are not going to be a week old. I don't know how you would add it to the effluent on the Pumpout boat, but there might be a way. (Then again what do people do with self-contained 'port-a-poti' type heads) Similarly, in theory there should be a way to bring the equipment ashore and safely empty it in a toilet.
> 
> Pollution in the harbor has become a real concern. Certainly a lot more than it was when the City's sewage treatment plant had an outfall directly in to the Bay near the mouth of Back Creek. Wind driven currents can keep the harbor from flushing properly and in certain winds visible debris builds up in Ego Alley and Up in Spa Creek. So while at this point, no one intentionally swims in the harbor, or gathers crabs or oysters, the knee jerked and the rules were written.
> 
> Jeff


Yep more like 6 weeks or more..

Composted material have been used on people's flower beds as well as vegetable gardens...

Have forwarded article to our composter manufacturer for comments as they most likely will attend the Annapolis boat show..


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

aa3jy said:


> Yep more like 6 weeks or more..
> 
> Composted material have been used on people's flower beds as well as vegetable gardens...


I know very little about composting heads, or about commercial composting as regulated and approved by the EPA. But I know enough to suspect that there's a huge difference between commercially composted materials approved for use in farming and the stuff that gets removed from a boat's head.

Do composting heads actually compost? I thought that commercial composting had process steps to remove toxins and heavy metals. Does a composting head do any of that? Or is it just a dessicant that sucks some moisture away from the poop? Dessication can stop some biological activity, but does not do anything to remove toxins that were already created or heavy metals that were concentrated in the feces.

I can kind of understand why Annapolis doesn't want that stuff thrown into their trash cans (or dumped directly in the harbor under cloak of darkness). But I don't know much about this, so enlighten me.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

You’re suspicions are right on, T5. Composting heads are mislabeled. They simply desiccate their contents, as normally used. The product that was deposited the day of disposal is still fully alive, as it were. 

I am curious what would happen, if you upended a composting head’s material into a dark, hot dumpster in the summer, without bagging it. My intuition is not pleasant. 

While I fully agree that urine does not seem at all likely to be a risk, that must put those responsible for enforcing NDZ laws in a bind. Even the advocates of composters on this forum typically admit to pouring the pee bottle overboard. Holding tank users, with an available pumpout boat, don’t pour urine in the harbor. It’s simply a discharge violation and the composting community admits to it. Do I care that they do? No, although I would love to see some study of the issue. Would an enforcement agency? Of course, society doesn’t like bureaucrats to have discretion, as they abuse it, typically via discrimination or self serving.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I would never recommend putting the outflow of standard marine composters in food-growing gardens. Full composting takes far longer than most marine users allow. It certainly is possible to fully compost the material, but not if the head is in constant use.

There's a reason animal manure is used for farm fertilizer; it doesn't carry anywhere near the same level of pathogens that are dangerous to humans.

I dump my urine over the side most of the time. If I'm in a marina I sometimes take the jug to the land head, but otherwise it goes over the side. All the research I've examined says urine is nearly sterile (nothing is 100% sterile). The biggest environemental issue with urine is that it will add to the nitrogen level of the water, which can theoretically increase the propensinty to grown algae. But no living animal has zero impact on its environment. This is mine.

Just speculating here, but I wonder if the prohibition against urine dumping has to do with the fact that most marine heads mix feces with urine. This creates the toxic slurry that is so damaging. Makes bureauocratic sense to simply ban it all, but in the case of urine separation, it makes little environmental sense.

My compost bin typically lasts us (two adults, full time) about five weeks. It usually gets disposed of when out to sea, or off the beaten path in the forests that I'm usually anchored off of. I have had to use a dumpster three times. I do my best to bag it well, and to use a large bin.

Dumping into the urban trash system is the least desirable way for CH users to deal with their end product, but as has been said, it is certainly not worse than used diapers or tampons. In reality, it's probably better, since it's already slightly composted, and diluted. Remember,_ the solution to pollution is dilution._


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

MikeOReilly said:


> I would never recommend putting the outflow of standard marine composters in food-growing gardens. Full composting takes far longer than most marine users allow. It certainly is possible to fully compost the material, but not if the head is in constant use.
> 
> There's a reason animal manure is used for farm fertilizer; it doesn't carry anywhere near the same level of pathogens that are dangerous to humans.
> 
> ...


Lots of sources...here's one from the original ' tree hugger' Mother Earth news..hippies from the 60'swill remember this pub. 
https://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/gardening-techniques/human-waste-zmgz11zrog

..this not new science folks..


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## Davy J (Mar 25, 2017)

> Do composting heads actually compost? I thought that commercial composting had process steps to remove toxins and heavy metals. Does a composting head do any of that? Or is it just a dessicant that sucks some moisture away from the poop? Dessication can stop some biological activity, but does not do anything to remove toxins that were already created or heavy metals that were concentrated in the feces.


As pointed out, actual total composting takes a long time. However, when I have emptied my Nature's Head solids container, the "product" looks like and smells like potting soil. I would go as far to say that you would probably have to test it to determine it wasn't potting soil.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Davy J said:


> As pointed out, actual total composting takes a long time. However, when I have emptied my Nature's Head solids container, the "product" looks like and smells like potting soil. I would go as far to say that you would probably have to test it to determine it wasn't potting soil.


Exactly. It looks, smells and feels just like potting soil. This is why I'm amused or intrigued that people would find this offensive, even if they did find it in a trash bin.



aa3jy said:


> Lots of sources...here's one from the original ' tree hugger' Mother Earth news..hippies from the 60'swill remember this pub.
> https://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/gardening-techniques/human-waste-zmgz11zrog
> 
> ..this not new science folks..


Uhm, yes&#8230; I agree. As the piece you referenced says, it takes over a year to compost. This is why I said not to use what comes out of marine composter on a food garden; it ain't composted enough yet. But I would be fine putting it on a flower bed, just like we already use animal manure.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Here is some info on how a full composting toilet system works:

Composting Toilets and Greywater Systems Science & Technology | Clivus Multrum, Inc.

Excerpt about the composting process:

"Composting Science

Composting is the bio-chemical decomposition of organic matter by aerobic organisms, i.e., organisms which get oxygen from the atmosphere and give off carbon dioxide. Composting takes place in all soils which support plant and animal life. The compost toilet employs the same process in the controlled environment of the compost chamber.

This process is distinct from anaerobic decomposition, which takes place naturally in water-saturated environments such as swamps, and is typical of septic tanks. Anaerobic, or liquid-saturated, conditions produce methane and the offensive odors associated with septic systems.

Organisms found in the composter include bacteria, actinomycetes, fungi, arthropods, and earthworms and are added manually once the system is operating. Energy, carbon dioxide and water vapor are released by the organic matter in feces through the activity of the composting organisms. A less chemically complex, more chemically stable substance, rich in organic matter, is produced. Feces volume, which is mostly water, is reduced by over 90%.

Temperatures in the compost toilet remain in the middle, or mesophilic, range (65-113°F) and don't exceed 100°. Potential pathogens in feces are, therefore, not destroyed by heat. Those pathogens that require an aqueous environment die quickly in the non-saturated condition of the compost chamber. Others die because of the intense competition for nutrients; still others are consumed by predators which populate the system. The biological content of the dry end-product is similar to that found in topsoil. As a measure of its stability, the dry end-product from the Clivus Multrum contains less than 200 MPN (Most Probable Number) of fecal coliform per 100 grams. This meets the level required under National Sanitation Foundation Standard 41 for Non-saturated Systems. The dry end-product contains a wide array of plant nutrients and is intended to be used as a fertilizer/soil conditioner. Its use may or may not be regulated by local authorities.

Urine is also transformed by the activity of microorganisms. As compared to feces, urine contains most of the nitrogen from food. The primary form of nitrogen in urine is urea. Left alone, urea will degrade into ammonia and carbon dioxide. Bacteria in the compost unit (specifically Nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas) prevent this degradation and, instead, convert urea into nitrite and nitrate. That these are forms of nitrogen required for plant growth indicates the value of the compost toilet for nutrient recycling. The liquid end-product from the Clivus Multrum contains less than 200 MPN of fecal coliform per 100 ml. This also meets the level required under National Sanitation Foundation Standard 41 for Non-saturated Systems. The nitrogen-rich liquid end-product is intended to be used as a fertilizer. Use of the liquid-end product as a fertilizer may or may not be regulated by local authority. "​
There is the secondary hazard of partially composted material removed from a portable unit to be sealed up in a bag getting into an Anaerobic state generating Methane to pose a fire hazard. I forget all the details however my wife did work for a commercial/residential composting toilet manufacturer 30 years ago and fire prevention in the composting tank was a concern if the urine pump failed and nobody took note until all airflow was blocked off. All units they built included an automatic fire suppression system.

I wonder if there is also concern that the portable units may not meet NSF Standard 41 for Non-saturated Systems or are being used in a way that does not meet that standard.


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## Davy J (Mar 25, 2017)

> Exactly. It looks, smells and feels just like potting soil. This is why I'm amused or intrigued that people would find this offensive, even if they did find it in a trash bin.


My guess is that the Annapolis Harbormaster and many of the posters in this thread have never used or emptied a *Properly Working*
composting toilet.

On my boat the agitator in the solids container gets rotated once or twice a day, even if the head has not been used. This insures that the "product" is broken down to the smallest level and thoroughly mixed with the peat or coir.

My other theory is that people may claim that they have a composting head. When, in reality, it may be a homemade unit not fully mixing. Or worse yet, the bag and bucket method.

In any case, I will probably not be visiting Annapolis......., well, because it's in Maryland. But you local cruisers should really try to get the harbormaster to see the real thing............ Literally........


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Didn't the article mention the reason was that people were dumping their bags of dessicated human waste in city trash cans and as a result the human waste was not going to a sewage treatment plant like it does from a pumpout?

I can see the reason why they would prefer the waste to be treated.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

So for the sake of discussion, if the science tells us that it takes 6 weeks to compost, but you stir it up and empty it out with all the crap you've put into it over the past week, what magical feature of this *properly working* toilet renders the material safe for disposal in municipal waste? Just because it doesn't smell doesn't mean it's not hazardous.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

It's not composting, it's dessicating. In order to compost you need mass, moisture, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen. Combined in the proper amount you get an aerobic process which gives off heat.

There is not enough mass in a "composting" toilet to compost.

There is not enough moisture in a "composting" toilet to compost.

If your "composting" toilet is not producing heat your not composting.

I am neither for or against these toilets but, as a lifelong composter, it drives me a little batty to hear people believe they are composting.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Used diapers? Used feminine hygiene products? 

Not saying it’s a non-issue, but the outflow of a composting head is certainly no worse, and likely slightly better, than these items. 

Anyone want to estimate the volume of used diaper material going into the landfill system vs how much material from ‘compost’ heads? Any reasonable estimate will put diaper volumes at many factors more than compost material.

… don’t see anyone complaining about these items.

Bleemus: I don’t see anyone who uses these heads claiming they are fully composting. Maybe I missed it. Can you point this out? Otherwise, you’re going “batty” over nothing.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Not in this thread Mike. I am sure you have heard some say "we compost our poop" with the same tone of "we are vegans". Lol! 

Not scientists.


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## Davy J (Mar 25, 2017)

> So for the sake of discussion, if the science tells us that it takes 6 weeks to compost, but you stir it up and empty it out with all the crap you've put into it over the past week, what magical feature of this properly working toilet renders the material safe for disposal in municipal waste? Just because it doesn't smell doesn't mean it's not hazardous.


Well, it does take about six weeks time to empty the solids bin. It's apparently not hazardous for your flower bed............


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Bleemus said:


> Not in this thread Mike. I am sure you have heard some say "we compost our poop" with the same tone of "we are vegans". Lol!
> 
> Not scientists.


True&#8230; There is sometimes a veneer or 'holier than though' from some users. But I think most users are very clear about what they're doing. My reasons for going with a Nature's Head are many, but 'going green' is not on my list.

I agree with you - and have said so many times - I wish they didn't call these heads "composters". They're most important function is as a desiccator. They do begin the composting process, and they do convert feces into fairly innocuous material to manage, but they cannot fully compost the waste on their own; especially not when the head is in constant use.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Davy J said:


> Well, it does take about six weeks time to empty the solids bin. It's apparently not hazardous for your flower bed............


Are you saying that everything in your peat is 6 weeks old before you take it to shore? It actually sits in the boat for that long? And letting it sit in dessicated state for 6 weeks actually removes toxins and heavy metals?

Do you put it in your flower bed? I thought that only properly composted (i.e., EPA regulated) compost was safe for flower beds.

Would like to see some data for both.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Let me clarify the "mass" portion of my previous post. 

It is widely accepted in the composting community that in order to generate enough heat (approx 165 degrees)
to kill off most pathogens and weed seeds in compost NOT containing human waste you need a about a cubic yard of material. 

No "composting toilet" is a cubic yard. If it was I would love to see you putting your compost in your dinghy for disposal!


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## Davy J (Mar 25, 2017)

> Do you put it in your flower bed? I thought that only properly composted (i.e., EPA regulated) compost was safe for flower beds.


Are saying that the waste that goes into your municipal solids waste dump is sanitary and not at all hazardous?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Davy J said:


> Are saying that the waste that goes into your municipal solids waste dump is sanitary and not at all hazardous?


Non sequitur.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Nobody that knows composting would suggest putting dessicated human waste directly on flower beds. It is only ever suggested to put fully composted human waste that has seen the high temperatures associated with proper composting before putting it on flower beds. "Composting" toilets do not meet this criteria.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Bleemus said:


> Nobody that knows composting would suggest putting dessicated human waste directly on flower beds. It is only ever suggested to put fully composted human waste that has seen the high temperatures associated with proper composting before putting it on flower beds. "Composting" toilets do not meet this criteria.


I fully agree. However, a couple of people here have tried to downplay the nuisance/hazard of marine toilet waste by noting that compost is safe for putting in flower beds. I agree with you that compost and marine toilet waste are very different things. (Your use of "sarcasm quotes" is therefore appropriate.) The use of the term "composting toilets" seems to be a misnomer bordering on "marketing fluffery". Used properly, such toilets seem to me to be dessicating toilets, not composting toilets. Their effluent sounds like it is dried and pulverized poop, not composted poop.

I have no skin in this game. I have no experience with these types of toilets. I do have experience with composting yard waste, so I have a very small bit of knowledge.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Thank you. I always hesitate to step into "composting" toilet conversations knowing the cult like following they enjoy. I have no bone to pick with someone who wants to dessicate their poop and dump it in a trash bin but please start calling it what it truly is and not mislabel it as some sort of process that results in an organic composted fertilizer. It's poop in a bag, nothing more.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

So the waste from a composter smells like potting soil, even with a fresh addition. Let’s accept that as true, even though, it not 100% accurate by my exposure. Not awful, but not accurate. The point is, if emptied in a dumpster, without bagging, will it stay that way? I don’t know. My speculation is no. Dumpsters often seem to have other moisture added, they are dark, little air circulation and hot temps. It sure seems like a recipe for the bioorganisms to grow.


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## Davy J (Mar 25, 2017)

> Non sequitur.


If you say so............

The comment was made tongue in cheek. The material doesn't end up on a flower bed, it ends up in a landfill. Where other noxious and nasty material ends up.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Bleemus said:


> ...It's poop in a bag, nothing more.


Nope. It's dried out poop in a bag diluted with bedding material. Diapers and wag bags are poop in a bag. But no one seems to care about those things.

As for the mislabelling, I guess you're barking at the wrong people. Go talk to the manufactures or sellers. I don't really care what you call them, they work. To my mind they have many advantages over standard Type III heads, and for boats that like to visit enclosed anchorages/marinas they are much better than direct discharge systems (macerator, or not).


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Mike, 
You seem to think I am arguing with you yet I am not. I have friends who are quite happy with their Nature Heads and I am happy for them. Whatever floats your boat as they say. 

You are correct that the manufacturers are responsible for the confusion and should be subject to truth in labeling laws.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I have used my built-in composting head for a few years now and would never go back to a slurry of obnoxious chemicals and liquidized waste sloshing around in a tank, waiting to be pumped into a municipal sewer treatment facility which may actually overflow and dump it all into a river somewhere anyway(with no penalty). My guess is that those with negative opinions are people who have no actual experience with this method of disposal and would rather carry around fifty gallons of sloshing, mixed sewage. Each to their own.

Cleanout of composted material only happens about once a month if cruising full time with two people. The composted material is about as smelly and obnoxious as peat moss. Those who's scientific theories suggest that composting has not occurred are simply wrong. Maybe it's a difference in sampling or testing but composting most certainly does happen in between cleanouts. It can be stored easily for disposal weeks or even months later if need be. The stuff does not have to go into some small dockside container. I have never noticed any explosive gas issue but appreciate that it may be an issue. I suspect that with wet, mixed urine compost this may be more likely.

Pee MUST be separated from #2. If it is not, a really smelly mess will occur. So pee needs to be stored as well. A 5 gallon water container (clearly marked as such takes a LONG time to fill. It can easily be poured down a toilet of offshore.

Places to dispose of compost would be great but is probably not necessary except for maybe places like Marathon, where many people live aboard boats. It sounds as if the Annapolis situation is a knee-jerk reaction to pollution in the harbor in general. I have used the moorings there a number of times and would not like to see Annapolis become another Stuart/Okeechobee where skull and crossbones signs appear to warn people not to get splashed by the water!

Note:Coir is absolutely the only material to use in composters. It somehow begins the composting process much faster than peat or other materials and is much more effective. One large compacted block will last a year.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I'm learning a lot from this thread. I can see why long-term cruisers would much rather store dessicated waste than liquid waste - it's a far superior way to keep the materials. I can also see why Annapolis has set limits (but hasn't banned) the length of stay for dessicating heads. And I can also see why these heads do not compost.



smurphny said:


> ...Those who's scientific theories suggest that composting has not occurred are simply wrong. Maybe it's a difference in sampling or testing but composting most certainly does happen in between cleanouts...


Since you call these "theories" wrong, please state the chemical mechanism by which you claim composting is occurring. I think a pretty compelling case has been made that in absence of water and heat, what's happening is dessication and not composting. But I'm open to hear other explanations based on science.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

TakeFive said:


> I'm learning a lot from this thread. I can see why long-term cruisers would much rather store dessicated waste than liquid waste - it's a far superior way to keep the materials. I can also see why Annapolis has set limits (but hasn't banned) the length of stay for dessicating heads. And I can also see why these heads do not compost.
> 
> Since you call these "theories" wrong, please state the chemical mechanism by which you claim composting is occurring. I think a pretty compelling case has been made that in absence of water and heat, what's happening is dessication and not composting. But I'm open to hear other explanations based on science.


Well, I think that the term "composting" is not adequately defined. If it a verb rather than an adjective describing a system then "composting" begins immediately and in fact has started well before the trip to the head. In one of these units there are probably many stages of "composting." There is new poop, old poop, and stuff that no longer can be classified as poop


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

If I was making my living off a product that needed to be 100% free of e.coli or other potential pathogen or a product that would die in the presence of too much nitrogen I wouldn’t care about much of this discussion. The entire Chesapeake turns over poorly and is at risk from multiple threats. Garbage placed in even covered shoreside containers is rained on with some delivery of what’s contained. With biologicals volume is not very revelent. Just need sufficient innoculum. Discussion of impact on composting head users is totally irrelevant. Rather risk to others using Annapolis and surrounds is the focus of concern. 
Question is does a composting head in active use produce sterile material to throw out. The obvious answer is no it does not. Next question is given current circumstances is it a risk to Annapolis and surroundings. Next question is what needs to be done to eliminate or mitigate this risk if it exists. Last question is it financially worth doing. Apparently Annapolis has decided in the negative. We don’t know their reasoning. Can any poster give evidence has to why they should not have made their decision.
Talking about your “experience “ or others lack of “experience “ carries little weight.


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## Simply Sailing (Jun 9, 2015)

misfits said:


> I suspect this will get challenged in the courts.
> How are they going to keep track?


I don't think it will come to that. This isn't the first time a city has tried this. What generally happens is that they are educated on the facts of legality of composting heads and they change the regulation. The GM of Air Head plans to meet with the Annapolis harbormaster when he is there and give her some more information. In the past, from what I understand, this has led to a change in policy to something more fair and reasonable. Here is a statement from the GM of Air Head:

"As a response to some misinformation that has been circulating recently: in regard to legality, the Air Head Composting Toilet is a USCG approved MSD type III in compliance with 33 CFR 159.12a. Evidence of the product's legality is in the regulations and supported by a letter by P.A. Richardson, Captian US Coast Guard dated April 20, 1999. We'll be glad to share it with anyone who is interested. 
Secondly, the Air Head is indeed designed for uninterrupted use. We have 18 years of proof from full-time liveaboards that it can be used uninterrupted for a month. If you have any concerns or questions or would like more information, please contact us through the website: www.airheadtoilet.com."

So I guess time will tell.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

"Secondly, the Air Head is indeed designed for uninterrupted use. We have 18 years of proof from full-time liveaboards that it can be used uninterrupted for a month."

That is some serious food poisoning!


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## Davy J (Mar 25, 2017)

> I can also see why Annapolis has set limits (but hasn't banned) the length of stay for dessicating heads. And I can also see why these heads do not compost.


First, the city hasn't shown any data as to why they are limiting the stay of boats with "composting toilets". Other than to say, incorrectly, that the uninterrupted use of such a device is not their intended use.

And why only one week? Most boats equipped with a such a device can hold up to six weeks of "product" with two people aboard.

And lastly, as I pointed out earlier, if you arrive in Annapolis on a tuesday, and have a full composting toilet. You will still need to empty it ashore on Wednesday...........

Again, why just one week?


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Apparently a part of the problem is that composting toilets are strictly regulated on land, and from what I understand, not permitted in Annapolis proper. The urine problem seems intractable, even after the solids problem is solved. There is simply no legal road to saying that it is OK.

General Composting Toilet Discharge Permit
https://www.fredericknewspost.com/news/environment/regulations-tie-up-composting-toilets/article_0abe7de5-dc69-5f8e-81ee-d74e354154be.html

They seem to favor this level of complexity.
https://nutricyclesystems.com/?page_id=6

And before you get upset with me, let me share what a wise old lobbiest told me years ago:

*"Never confuse the facts with the issues."*


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## Davy J (Mar 25, 2017)

> The urine problem seems intractable, even after the solids problem is solved. There is simply no legal road to saying that it is OK.


What urine problem? Most of these toilets can be purchased with as many urine bottles as you are willing to carry. Then the urine can be discarded in a shoreside restroom.

Is there a problem with that?

In Boot Key Harbor they seem to have a system just for that.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Davy J said:


> What urine problem? Most of these toilets can be purchased with as many urine bottles as you are willing to carry. Then the urine can be discarded in a shoreside restroom.
> 
> Is there a problem with that?
> 
> In Boot Key Harbor they seem to have a system just for that.


I seriously doubt many are carrying them to shore. That is what the users say. Additionally, to fit the Annapolis model, they would have to be presented for pumping; I'm guessing that saying you took them to shore won't wash.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Davy J said:


> What urine problem? Most of these toilets can be purchased with as many urine bottles as you are willing to carry. Then the urine can be discarded in a shoreside restroom.
> 
> Is there a problem with that?
> 
> In Boot Key Harbor they seem to have a system just for that.


As mentioned, many/most users admit they don't do this. Further, I've known several marinas that forbid emptying porta-potties in their restrooms. I assume gallons of urine is the same. Not sure of the practical reason, but perhaps it's too much concentration for systems to handle, perhaps folks are not very tidy doing so, I really don't know.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> I seriously doubt many are carrying them to shore. That is what the users say. Additionally, to fit the Annapolis model, they would have to be presented for pumping; I'm guessing that saying you took them to shore won't wash.


I sure don't. Although I do carry two bottles. This would normally last us about six days (depending on how much beer I've been drinking ). So I guess I'll have to cross "visiting Annapolis" off my bucket list.

_Oh, boo hoo, how can I ever go on_.:grin

But didn't I read somewhere recently about some compost user taking his bucket of piss in each week so he can get his Stamp of Approval from the potty police? I'm sure it was on one of these recent potty threads.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Response back from our composter manufacture ...


Our position?

1. We respect the laws as written
2. We intend to have discussions with Annapolis regulators and enforcement agencies to get a better understanding of their concerns. And make recommendations.
3. If necessary adapt the product as necessary to allow our current and future customers to enjoy the product in these areas.
4. We encourage customers such as yourself to voice your concerns about the new regulations directly to the harbormasters office.

Geoff



Geofftrey Trott
General Manager
Eos Design LLC;
DBA: Air Head Composting Toilet
775 Main St, #481
Westbrook, ME 04098


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## Davy J (Mar 25, 2017)

Once again, misinformation and deliberate deflection. The Annapolis harbor master, at least in the reports I read, never mentioned urine. Only the incorrect statement the the device is not meant for continual use.



> But didn't I read somewhere recently about some compost user taking his bucket of piss in each week so he can get his Stamp of Approval from the potty police? I'm sure it was on one of these recent potty threads.


You did......... It was on the other forum. The guy staying in Marathon on a mooring in Boot Key Harbor. Apparently, the harbormaster there has come up with a way to manage these devices. They provide a place to drop the compost and also give you a place to drop the urine every "X" amount of days. Problem solved.................................................


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

And our composter manufacturer will be at the Annapolis Boat show..FYI..they are the only ones that responded back to our enquirers as to their position to the situation in Annapolis..


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