# Boat Heater - Force 10 or Dickinson Newport



## cdsnyder83 (Jun 25, 2015)

Hey guys, question for you about heaters. I have a propane cozy cabin heater (force 10) that I bought but have yet to install, and I'm wondering if I'm better off selling it and buying a Dickinson Newport Diesel heater instead. I'm seeing mixed reviews about the cozy cabin force 10 heater and it seems like it may not throw out enough heat for my 32' Aloha sailboat. Any thoughts?


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## dadio917 (Apr 4, 2011)

we've got a sigmar 150 which is pretty much the same as the Dickenson. I think the new carburetor might be better. still archaic and cantankerous and takes forever to heat up. heats our 39' (37' hull) with muffin fans to circulate around the cabin.

i'd much rather have something like the webasco. lots more money but looks so much more efficient and useful
https://www.webasto.com/us/markets-products/marine/heating-solutions/air-heaters/air-top/


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Depends, just out for day sails? Extending the season? Off season cruising? LIve aboard?


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

The Force 10 puts out 5500 BTU, which should warm that boat of yours fairly quickly, though it's not going to happen like the flick of a switch. On my boat, I have a 17,000 BTU heater with my heat pump, and it works very well down to water temperatures of just 45 degrees, which is pretty cold for my part of the world. It takes it about 20 minutes to heat the cabin from 40 degrees to 65, which is the temperature I prefer for sleeping. You may wish to consider installing a heat pump, which will provide you AC during the summer and heat during winter. However, it's about twice as much money to purchase.

Good luck,

Gary


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## cdsnyder83 (Jun 25, 2015)

That webastaco heater is an interesting piece of equipment and I'll have to give serious thought to it. I haven't been able to find a price range for it yet though


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## cdsnyder83 (Jun 25, 2015)

Hpeer, I intend to do some late season sailing on the great lakes. 2-3 says at a time in late September/October, with some nights on the hook


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## cdsnyder83 (Jun 25, 2015)

Gary, I actually have a reverse cycle 12k btu unit on board that I just installed but have not yet had a chance to try in cold weather. I'm a bit concerned that it will not work much at all when the water temp gets close to freezing!


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

cdsnyder83 said:


> Hpeer, I intend to do some late season sailing on the great lakes. 2-3 says at a time in late September/October, with some nights on the hook


I think for this usage the propane will be fine provided you already have propane on board for cooking.

If you had said live aboard november december on the lakes i might say it would be worthwhile to upgrade to deisel.

Propane will be easier to light.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

cdsnyder83 said:


> Gary, I actually have a reverse cycle 12k btu unit on board that I just installed but have not yet had a chance to try in cold weather. I'm a bit concerned that it will not work much at all when the water temp gets close to freezing!


It won't
I like the Dickenson. Friend of ours has it and it whorls like a charm and it's great in the late fall early spring to have a nice warm cabin away from the dock.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I don't know how it would work with water temperatures close to freezing - I usually try to avoid those conditions. However, at 45 degrees water temperature, it worked like a champ.

Good luck on whatever you decide upon,

Gary


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

The propane heater will be the easiest and cheapest way to heat the boat since you already have it. It should heat your boat with no problems for late fall cruising in the Great Lakes. Only negative is keeping it supplied with propane. Schlepping propane tanks around to remote anchorages won't be fun if you limited tanks and want to stay off the beaten path for long periods of time. Don't know how much fuel you'd burn if you ran 24/7. Might think about some kind of fan to distribute the heat so you don't have a sweaty head and frozen toes.

Diesel heaters are more economical/easier to keep in fuel than propane but aren't always the easiest to deal with. Many reports of backdrafts and flare ups if not set up properly. They do put a lot of heat though. Have heard of people having to leave ports/hatches open because they couldn't throttle the heater back enough.

Webasto and other forced air heaters are nice but several boat units to buy and install. The ducting takes up valuable space on a small boat and can have a fairly high addiction to electrons so a generator might be needed. Know at least on race boat that packs a generator to power their forced air heater for late/early season races. They are the best form of heat if you expect to live aboard in less than balmy conditions.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

We have a 33’ Steel boat in Newfoundland. It has a kero bulkhead heated about the same as a cozy cabin. I installed a Espar D-4 also. 

The cozy cabin will keep you warm enough when it’s warm during the day and cool in the evening. 

The Espar D-4 will keep you warm froze in. Buy a spare igniter and wrench, use the cheap wrench to make a real socket. Also a spare blower motor. You don’t need a lot of ducting, keep it minimal. A guy I know who sells both Webasto and Espar thinks Espar are easier to maintain. 

We have a Dickenson stove in a hunting cabin. It will keep you warm froze in also but is harder to light, harder to adjust (may get too hot), stack gets in the way, I would be wary of using it underway. Fine anchored or at dock. My personal opinion is it takes a bit to sort it out and get the install just right. Lots of fishing boats use them, but they are limited heel and much bigger. There seem to be a much wider range of opinions on these units.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

We heat on occasion with reverse cycle AC. It’s very energy inefficient and only reasonable to use with genset on or plugged in.
I’ve had various drip fuel heaters. They are only safe in up to modest heel and modest seas. Unless they draw outside air for combustion you have various difficulties with ambient air in the boat and usually require fans running to heat the entire boat. That’s annoying. 
Burning propane inside the boat scares me. Propane is hard to find out side the US. Unlike your stove vented outside there’s a risk of it collecting in your bilge as the run is usually longer than for a stove. It’s bulky and another fuel to keep up with. I won’t use one. 
I spec’d an hydronic wesbasto with multiple zones and registers throughout the current boat. It is by far and away the best heating I’ve ever had. Will give me hot water and nice even dry heat all the time. Can turn off the furnace and the waste heat from the engine. Combustion is outside living spaces. It’s quiet and reliable. Carry an extra nozzle but no other spares for 4 years now without issue.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

roverhi said:


> The propane heater will be the easiest and cheapest way to heat the boat since you already have it. It should heat your boat with no problems for late fall cruising in the Great Lakes. Only negative is keeping it supplied with propane. Schlepping propane tanks around to remote anchorages won't be fun if you limited tanks and want to stay off the beaten path for long periods of time. Don't know how much fuel you'd burn if you ran 24/7. Might think about some kind of fan to distribute the heat so you don't have a sweaty head and frozen toes.
> 
> Diesel heaters are more economical/easier to keep in fuel than propane but aren't always the easiest to deal with. Many reports of backdrafts and flare ups if not set up properly. They do put a lot of heat though. Have heard of people having to leave ports/hatches open because they couldn't throttle the heater back enough.
> 
> Webasto and other forced air heaters are nice but several boat units to buy and install. The ducting takes up valuable space on a small boat and can have a fairly high addiction to electrons so a generator might be needed. Know at least on race boat that packs a generator to power their forced air heater for late/early season races. They are the best form of heat if you expect to live aboard in less than balmy conditions.


yes and no. A small boat won't need much ducting. The problem is lack of insulation... heat loss. Diesel heaters are small and can fit almost anywhere that you can run the duct and the exhaust. They consume little fuel too. The kit for my 36' w/ 3 outlets was about $1,400 several years back. Install is not rocket science either. It combusts air from outside.. not consuming oxygen inside a closed cabin


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Wabasto hydronic isn’t forced hot air but rather hydronic. Nice even heat. Had and Espar force hot air more noisy.
There are several vendors for diesel drip. Would strongly agree pick one using external air for combustion.


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## Antibes (May 18, 2011)

Great Lakes WATER temperature late season is surprisingly warm, especially in the deeper lakes. Lake Erie off Cleveland stay on average stay in the 40s until December


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

40 degrees SURPRIZINGLY WARM. Think we have drastically different perceptions of warm!!!! Wish the water here was warm enough to swim in.

Aloha
Peter O.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

outbound said:


> Wabasto hydronic isn't forced hot air but rather hydronic. Nice even heat. Had and Espar force hot air more noisy.
> There are several vendors for diesel drip. Would strongly agree *pick one using external air for combustion*.


"_Room sealed combustion_" is an ABYC requirement for any cabin heater that heats with propane. This means the unit takes air directly into the unit via piping fed directly to the exterior of the vessel. The Cozy Cabin heater does not meet ABYC safety standards but a Dickinson P9000 or P12000 does. Unfortunately Dickinson is not very clear about the fact that the Cozy Cabin heater (formerly Force 10, then SIG now Dickinson) does not meet the ABYC standards. I have actually had to remove one in order for the owner to comply with an insurance survey.

We currently have an Espar but started with an Espar knock off from a company wishing to grab some of the marine market.... All I can say is

DO NOT BUY KNOCK OFF OF WEBASTO OR ESPAR HEATERS.

Long story short company wanted me to be a dealer, I installed on my own boat to fully vet it before bringing it on as a line. I quickly found out it was a complete POS with a list of deficiencies so long it's just not even worth typing. I gave the company a detailed list of issues and never heard from them again. After the fourth fuel pump failure, and second cracked HX, I dropped in an Espar.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Any combustion to create cabin heat uses oxygen. If it's cold out the cabin closed / sealed and a heater MUST burn air from OUTSIDE and EXHAUST to the outside. A heater which is not set up like this is dangerous.


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## 2airishuman (Jul 25, 2018)

Hello CDSnyder

I myself have asked this question of many others.

I would not recommend the Force 10.

The Dickenson/Newport and similar "drip" heaters are widely considered to be the best alternative for cruising in cold weather. They are fiddly to install and use but are reliable, and easy and inexpensive to maintain. They typically do not require electrical power although in some installations a fuel pump or fan draws a token amount. I have been in a number of houses heated by similar devices -- they were popular in the 1920s through 1950s in this area, and some stayed in operation long past that.

Webasto's hydronic systems (and those from other similar makers) are very expensive considering overall system cost. They are complicated and draw quite a bit of power. If you are willing to run the engine an hour or two to charge batteries every day they will work great. Even, well controlled heat, nothing to fiddle around with, just push a button.

People I've talked to who have the Webasto hot-air furnace say that it is loud and requires a good deal of ongoing maintenance. There is also a fair amount of electrical power required. Considered OK for occasional use in less demanding climates but not ideal for liveaboards or long term cruising. You can get pricing at discountmarinesource.com.


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