# Noob purchasing and commandeering a sail boat



## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Ahoy Captains, 

I am a noob who is about to potentially get burned in a boat sale over $100,000. I have never sailed a boat bigger than 14ft, yet I'm buying a 40ft sail boat this winter/spring, possibly from an NY American dealer (I'm from Ontario). So any help you can give me is appreciated. I know this is what I want to do with my life, but I'm having some trouble locating the information I need. Here are some questions that I know I have: (I'm sure there's more I don't know that I have.) 

1. After I purchase the boat, I'll be sailing it back to Burlington marina. Who should I contact in US Customs about paying duties? (Since they won't be stopping me at the border, as I'll be sailing across Lake Ontario back to Canada.)

2. What additional costs are incurred by purchasing a sail boat in the US and importing to Canada for permanent residency? I ask because I have found a similar boat in Canada that is slightly more expensive and I'm wondering if buying the US boat is not the better deal after all...

3. Where can I find a good sail boat surveyor to look at my prospective boat to tell me about anything that is wrong with it? Do you guys know any Canadian ones who would be willing to travel to New York with me and look at the boat? 

4. Where/how should I go about finding someone to help me commission the boat and sail her across Lake Ontario in spring of 2012 (this spring)? I'm looking for someone who would do it for some good memories, a friendship, beer, and perhaps a small fee... My family is poor and I don't know anyone who owns a 40 ft boat who would be willing to help me sail it across Lake Ontario. 

Thank you very much for any information, links, etc.. you can provide. I deeply appreciate it. My life kinda depends on me finding the right, accurate information. Because my heart is set on becoming a sail boat owner, a liveaboard, and a good skipper aswell.


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## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

What dealer are you going through? I assume one located on Lake Ontario? I would think they would have a lot of that information available to you, no?

Brad
s/v KIVALO


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Thank you for your guidance. 

Yes, the broker has told me there is no additional fee, just the HST and no duty to bring it to Ontario. 

But I am doing my due diligence because it is in their interest to make it sound easier and cheaper than it is in real life (so as to close the sale). 

I am reading every word I can find on the subject, and trying to find someone who has some 1st hand experience. 

Does my plan seem like a good one to you?


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## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

It makes sense to me, do some homework now and avoid hassles later. I would try email or calling both Canadian and US Customs and simply ask what the requirements are and document their answers. Then if there is trouble later you can point to the information provided by the Canadian & US Governments. Good luck, man.

What kid of boat are you purchasing anyhow?



PsySailor said:


> Thank you for your guidance.
> 
> Yes, the broker has told me there is no additional fee, just the HST and no duty to bring it to Ontario.
> 
> ...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

There are issues with a Canadian surveyor crossing the border to do work an American can do... probably not going to happen. There is a surveyor's society:

The Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors, Inc.® - (SAMS®)

You may find an accredited surveyor in the area you need.

You need not contact any American authorities vis a vis importing a boat to Canada. You are required to contact the Canadian Border Services immediately upon landing on Canadian soil (at a recognized port of entry) They will require you to go to a particular location (likely monitored by CCTV) and call them from there. Have the passports of all aboard in hand, they will ask you a number of questions and may or may not have you inspected. If they decide not to personally inspect the boat then you'll be given 3 days to pay duties (none if boat is North American built) and any applicable taxes at one of their offices. If you are immediately removing the vessel from the state you bought it you should not have to pay state taxes there (but this may vary, our experience is in WA state here in the PNW.)

This is a fairly painless procedure - don't recommend trying to understate the price paid to save a few bucks.. nowadays even they know about Yachtworld and Craigslists etc and so are more savvy about boat values than in the pre internet era...

In approximately half a dozen imports over a couple of years we were inspected on half the occasions.. the rest were phone exchanges only.

You must be arranging moorage for the new boat... try asking around at that facility for people willing/able/qualified to make that trip with you. If it's not a friend there will likely be some kind of fee.. and try to make sure the person is bonafide and will in fact be a help.

Shopping in the US provides a vastly greater selection, at least here in the west, which is probably the best aspect of it.. in addition with the dollar at near par the 'deals' are better than ever esp with the buyers' market that exists today. Since the US seems to be suffering more generally from the current economic situation than Canada there may be more distress sales south of the border.. You do need to factor in the costs related to travelling to these far locations to inspect the boat(s)... it adds up after a few fruitless trips...

All that said, though, I'd think Ontario should have a pretty extensive availability of suitable boats, and buying locally avoids all this issues with travel, distant surveyors & brokers, border crossings, etc etc...


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Great responses guys. Thanks for the information Faster, it sounds like you have a lot of experience in this area.

1 & 2. Sounds like I just have to double check that I don't have to pay any state taxes in NY as long as I am removing the boat immediately.

3. I will check out The Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors, Inc.® - (SAMS®) - Thank you!

4. Good idea, I should check around my home port for willing and able sailors.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Another point.... you'll need your bill of sale, of course, and a copy of the owner's US title.. they'll want to know it was his to sell.

By all means check out the boat that's nearby... and factor everything in before you make the final decision....


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

There are 2 major survey accredidation services, SAMS, as mentioned above and NAMS. You might want to look into both.

http://www.namsglobal.org/


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

I don't live in NY but I expect that a dealer in the State is required to collect the state (and County and town) sales taxes, regardless of if the buyer is a non-resident or not. I couldn't find a good reference for this but this link supports my assumption:
http://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/memos/sales/m82_3_1s.pdf.

I think you either want to take delivery outside new York (if that avoids the tax) or but locally. The dealer certainly would know the ins and outs. I think a dealer is boxed in by the state for tax collection in a way that a private seller or a broker is not.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

What's the boat ? and where ? I know most of the surveyors in NY and can hook you up with the good ones.


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## okawbow (Feb 15, 2007)

Try to learn as much as possible about inspecting a sailboat before you have a professional go over it. Try to be there when he does. 

I have friends who recently bought a 42' sailboat in the Great lakes that was inspected by an accredited surveyor and also by an engine mechanic. They have spent thousands of dollars and almost had loss of life because of things the surveyors missed. The owner found out the halyards were rotten....when he was 50 feet up in a bosuns' chair, and the halyard began to unravel! The motor mounts were loose, and the transmission was ruined because of that, in just a few hours of running, after being told by the surveyors it was in good order. 

If the boat is at a marina; ask other boat owners nearby about the boat and Its' owners if possible. Have some of the purchase price put in escro for a "warranty period" if there are things about the boat you are concerned with.

Good Luck!


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

We recently went through the same process. We purchased an American boat in Wisconsin, and sailed it back to our home port in Thunder Bay, ON. We did not have to pay any US state sales tax (although I'm not sure if Wisconsin even has a sales tax). 

You do not have check with US authorities to export the boat. You do not have to clear out of the US when heading to Canada. 

When we got into Canadian waters we called the central border service entry number and informed them we were importing a boat. We were given instructions, and met the friendly CBS agents at the dock. A quick inspection, a few questions, and the payment of GST & PST (now just HST) had us on our way. If the boat is not North American built, then you will get slapped with an additional import tariff of (I believe) 9.5%. 

Have all your normal entry paperwork ready, plus a proper bill of sale. Process was painless, (aside from paying the additional 13%), and easy.

We used a SAMS surveyor in Wisconsin. I'm sure you can fine one near your boat. 

You can probably find some willing sailors at local yacht clubs/marinas. Contact the commodore, or better yet, spend an afternoon at a yacht club yard. Ask around. Find out who are the good guys/gals.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Thank you for your help. 

I went ahead and put in the offer for the boat and I've contacted a few SAMS surveyors to do my survey of the boat. 

I'm trying to find a marina in the Burlington/Hamilton coast area that allows liveaboards for all year in water docking. 

Searching for a marina has been very difficult... I found La Salle Park Marina in Burlington, but i'm not sure if they do liveaboards and I can't get ahold of them. (I also don't think can help me because they say maximum beam of 12 feet, and I'm at 12'8'' and 40 feet LOA) 

Any smaller marinas out there with whom I can actually get some information and who will actually be able to support my size of boat? 

Thanks in advance.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Gee, it seems like you not done all your homework first. You need to be sure that you somewhere to keep the boat before you actually own it. Too late for that I guess. One problem on Lake Ontario is that yacht clubs and marinas were typically built decades ago when boats were smaller (and less beamy) so that docks for bigger boats can be an issue even when there are lots of dock available form smaller boats. There are liveaboards at Port Credit Marina but I don't know about availability. It would be a good idea to get yourself on the list for 2012/3 now though.

You 'may' have to do one administrative thing in the US before registering the boat in Canada. It involves state/provincial registration vs federal in both countries. We bought a boat in Rhode Island that was federally registered (I think they call it 'documented') in the US and wanted to federally register in Canada (not license in Ontario). To do this we had to provide a form from the US Coast Guard saying that the boat had had it is US documentation cancelled. This involved a company to do the paperwork and cost us about $200. I don't think we would have needed this if the boat had state registration in the US or if we wanted an Ontario license.

As to a surveyor, I would choose one yourself from the certified lists suggested (or the recommendation of one of the posters here who is a surveyor here. I would not go with one recommended by the selling broker since he is acting for the seller and not you. 

One final note, it sounds like you did not have a buyer's broker which would have been a good idea and is paid for by the seller (commission is split between the brokers). This means that the selling broker is getting the entire commission, so I would not be afraid to ask him for help (other than the surveyor) with regard to completing the sale/ getting the boat launched/rigged etc.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

killarney_sailor, I'm not sure what you mean about me not doing my homework since I haven't purchased the boat yet, or paid for the survey yet. 

I'm still in touch with some surveyors and I'm shopping around. But I have this part covered. 

The part I'm not sure about is finding a marina with space for my size of boat in Lake Ontario. I wasn't aware that I would have any trouble finding a dock for a 40 footer. (I figured the main problem would be finding a marina that allows all-year docking for liveaboard). 

This could be a real problem for me...

I was already in-touch with Port Credit. This isn't my first choice, but it's the only marina that I am sure can take me. 

However, the lady I spoke to didn't mention anything about a waiting list I could get on---and she also said I couldn't even apply until mid January 2012 since I'm looking for May 1st docking. 

Can anyone confirm if this lady has it wrong? 

(I really do need to get on a waiting list if there is such a thing. Waiting till January might screw me over?)


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Macdonald Marina,102 Harbour Front Dr. Hamilton, ON L8L 8E8 (905)523-5434 has a number of liveaboards. Royal Hamilton Yacht Club has taken in one liveaboard as test and may expand that next year if all goes well. Port Credit, don't do it over the phone. Go into the office and make friends with Wendy who can be very helpful if you're a nice guy. If you are an impatient idiot ..... well good luck


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Thanks boatpoker, I appreciate that listing you gave me. I will keep trying to contact them. 

It's very hard to contact the marinas. The only one that has answered my call is Port Credit.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Spend $25,000 0n a good, hardy, pre-owned, blue water cruiser, Pay a good delivery captain with a good reputation , and decent teaching skills, a decent wage, go to a good off shore sailing school, There will alway's be a reputable marine surveyor around any boat yard, just ask in the office, Don't buy from a yacht broker, they see you comming a mile away. They are more interested in selling you a WAY over priced boat. Look on sailboatlistings.com, Buy from owner! I hate to see you spend 3 times what you should for a sailboat, don't buy a paint job and gadgets!! Buy a good thick hull, Good strong engine, rig and sail's. Don't trade sea worthyness for oppulance. Read, Read, Read about what people are crusing blue water in. The Old Cal's, the Columbias from the 70's. Look at Westsail's, Bristol's. Don't get a Hunter!! If your going to pay a hundred, make sure it's at least a Beneteau. Read anything by Bernard Mottisie', If your serious about "doing this with your life" don't blow a 100k right out of the Gate!! I've been living aboard and cruising for 20 years and probably Have'nt spent a 100 grand. You can spend 25k on the boat and sail around the world for 4 years on the other 75!! In Style. Too many times I've seen good people get burned on first time buy's. They spend there whole wad on the boat and have nothing left over to deal with it. I've helped countless people over the years find the right boat for their need's and helped them deliver it to where it need's to be. Most of the survey'ing is common sense. If it's loose, tighten it. If it won't tighten, it's stripped. If it's old and faded, it's probably rotten, If it's scaled and rusted, it's probably about ready to change. Boat's up north are alway's twice what they go for down here in Fla. People up north buy the boat, sail down here, realize they don't like the life, and sell it for a fraction of what they paid for it. We have a surplus of good boat's that need a little T.L.C. IT'S A BUYERS MARKET DOWN HERE. A good sailor could help you learn everything you need to know on the trip back to Canada. I just helped my buddy buy a 1966 Cal 36 for 18k and it's ready for a circum-navigation as is. He's not, but the boat is. Look for word's like Yanmar, Harken, Sta-lok, There has to be a salty dude up there that you can trust and has interest in steering you on the right course. Good sailors are passionate about the subject and there are a lot of them up there. Avoid the word YACHT. Your buying a boat. Tiger Wood's has a Yacht. I paid a good surveyor, like $1500.00 for a proffessional looking, thurough survey of a boat I'm selling down here in Key West. That's the seller's obligation for it helps sell the boat. Look in the Camden ME. Area, Very Salty people 'round there. and Close to home.


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

PsySailor said:


> I'm looking for someone who would do it for some good memories, a friendship, beer, and perhaps a small fee... My family is poor.....


This, and "I'm buying a $100k+ sailboat" do not go together......


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Capt.aaron, thanks for you advice, you sound like a hardy sailor who really knows what he is talking about.

I did think about doing it your way, but I shy'd away for a few reasons. 

Number 1: I'm not sailing on salt water. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding something, but it sounds like you are assuming that I'm sailing on salt water.

Number 2: I'm looking for a comfortable boat as it will be my home. I want something that gives me maximum living space for the buck. Modern boats I've seen have much more space... Hence the reason I'm buying a 2004 Catalina.

Number 3: I'm looking for a boat that I will not have to repair ANYTHING SERIOUS for 5 years. (I will just do basic maintenance producedures.)

Number 4: I'm not looking for a cruiser, I'm looking for a shoal sailor. I want a smaller draft because I'll be on the great lakes and always coastal sailing.

Primarily, my reason for spending $130000 is to get a boat that will maintain it's value pretty well over 3 years. (I plan to sell it for at least $100000 in 3 years... It's a 2004) As well as the fact that I don't want any serious repairs on my hands for the entire time that I own it. 

If you still think I'm making the wrong decision, please feel free to tell me why.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

I would give capn Aaron a good listen. The purchase price of a boat is only a small fraction of it's cost of ownership. Even if you buy a brand new boat, things will break. A definition of a boat is (B).ring (O).n (A).nother (T).housand. 

Even if you don't plan on doing any cruising with this boat, (IE you are buying a houseboat). Things will still break that will require fixing to stay afloat. And besides you are buying a sailboat, you will at least want to move it around the lakes. No matter how many surveys you get, and in that price range I would suggest at least a couple. 

Some things will be missed. Unless you want your boat to spend a lot of time in the marinas shipyard, (at a cost of $600-$800 haulout, plus $100-$200 per day), you will want to learn to fix them yourself. 

You will still need to haulout once or twice per year to replace zincs and fix things under the boat, it costs me $2000 each time). Every few years a new bottom paint will cost several thousand plus the above fees. 

Think about how much total financial obligation to are biting off before you decide on a price range. Good luck


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

PsySailor said:


> Ahoy Captains,
> 
> My family is poor and I don't know anyone who owns a 40 ft boat who would be willing to help me sail it across Lake Ontario.


As a part of your research, it would be best to calculate your annual cost for the boat- maintenance, haul outs, hull painting, parts replacements, docking, utilities, taxes, insurance, boat registration and any other costs you can think of. Living in an apartment may be cheaper. The upfront cost of $100k is only the begining. Just make sure you do your homework so that you do not end up in the hole if you decide to sell the boat.
Good Luck to you


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

PsySailor said:


> killarney_sailor, I'm not sure what you mean about me not doing my homework since I haven't purchased the boat yet, or paid for the survey yet.
> 
> I'm still in touch with some surveyors and I'm shopping around. But I have this part covered.
> 
> ...


Find a couple of marinas you might want to stay at, and ask how many empty 40ft slips they have, if none, ask for length of waiting list, and what liveaboard policies are.

Around here I've found marinas are reluctant to give out this info, but will if pressed. Some simply forbid liveaboard, and restrict how many continuous weeks you are allowed to stay, some may require certain size holding tank, and dockside fittings, and even specify size and type of boat.

Some places like Hawaii, and California have more boaters than dock space. I don't know about Ontario, but in Texas there is about an even number. So you can usually find a slip if patient and look around.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Not trying to be a jerk, but how can your family be extremely poor, but you're buying a 130K boat? There is nothing cheap about owning a boat. There will be haul outs, bottom cleanings, bottom painting, replacing canvas and so on. To get that kind of return on that boat after being lived aboard is doubtful. The interior will get beat up while living aboard full time. The cushions and pillows won't make it for sure. Dunno, but sounds like your plan is a tad to optimistic...

It's totally doable what you want to do, but be careful! Good luck!


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

The odds are against you in the "I don't want to spend any money on it in 5 years". Yes,
you're spending a lot of money, but your'e still buying a 7 year old boat with 7 year old systems.
Just because the cost is over 100k, doesn't mean that things won't fail. Heck, they're "expected"
to fail.

Think of it in terms of an automobile; would you be fair to say, "I want to buy a 7 year old
car and not have to spend any major $$ on it for 5 years."? Remember, at the end of your
5 five year term, that's now a 12 year old boat (about to be 13). Also, the fact that you
are planning to do no major maintenance and still want to only take a 5% depreciation per
year is also, "unrealistic". Think about it from your current "buyer's prospective". If someone
offered you the boat you "expect" to have, 12 years old and had no major renovation work
done, for 100k, vs. a 5 year newer boat in near perfect condition for 130k, which one do
you look at?

Oh, and the term "salty" and even, "bluewater" as it pertains to a captain, just speaks to his/her
experience level, with "salty and bluewater proven" being someone you can trust that has tons
of sailing experience. From what I understand, those "Great Lakes" up there can be quite unforgiving
at times and a person can just as easily sink in freshwater as he can in saltwater.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Here's my math:
2004 Catalina- in 3 years it will be ten years old, which means that it is reaching the end of the practical life of many components. You are likely the second owner, so you get to do all the stuff that casued the first owner to sell the boat- new sails, or new cushions or new NMEA 2000 electronics or whatever. So, you invest 130 K plus the cost of upgrades and deferred maintenance,... lets call it $150K
In 5 years it is worth 100K- so you are 50 K out of pocket. It's cost you $10K per year to own, plus marina fees.

Or....
Buy a 25 year old well maintained Landfall 38 or similar for $75K Shop around a little and you can find a boat that has been well-maintained with no big bills coming due any time soon. Sell it in five years for $50K.
It's only cost you $5K per year to own, plus marina fees.

Now, take the $55K you didn't spend, and invest it. if it earns only 5% annually, over five years you have $70K, plus any tax benefits.

or, if you are financing that purchase, it cuts your monthly nut in half.


Something to think about.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Or, if you're willing to sacrifice a little length and save a lot of money, see if Mike in Thunder Bay still has Elysian up for sale.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Well you guys make some excellent points. In terms of the financial investment, there's probably no question that an older boat wins, but won't I have to do PLENTY of work myself on the boat? What if I don't have the time to master the boat craft? That's my worry... 

I wasn't aware that a 7 year old boat is "ready for everything to be replaced". I was under the impression that was 20 years for most boats. Mine's a Catalina, so we'll say 20 years. I was under the impression that you can get 10 years out of sails easily... Especially one like my boat which has barely ever been sailed. It has 200 engine hours... The thing looks to me basically brand new. The rigging all looks brand new to me, the halyards and sheets are bright and colorful and new looking. The sails look 3 years old to me. 

I bought my Honda Civic 3 years old, and i've driven it for 3 years, and I have done nothing but an oil change every year. 

I was hoping to do the same with my boat. I just need 3 years of no major repairs. I can do a haulout and clean the bottom once a year. I've budgeted $2400 a year in maintenance.

(My family is poor. Meaning that when I was growing up, I never got near a boat. But I have an office job that pays $65k per year and a fiancee who earns $50k per year. And we're looking to make our first home out of a boat.)

I should perhaps do some more research into an older boat in terms of financial benifit. But I seriously doubt an older boat will make me as happy to live upon. Plus, I'm not much of a mechanic. If anything busts, I'll be paying out my ass to fix it. At least for the first couple of years until I have taken all the courses I am planning to take, and have read all the books I plan to read...


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Let's not complicate the issue. Obviously nobody can say how much $ I'll need to put into my boat to keep it floating over the next 3 years. 

Let's assume that my judgement is correct, and the boat I'm buying at $130k will only need $2400 per year for the next 5 years to keep it in tip-top shape.

With that assumption, does anyone think I'm making a terrible mistake? Could I get a 40 footer with pressure water, propane stove, modern electronics, 7 year old sails (barely used), at least 12 foot beam, shower with door, under 5 foot draft, large completely sheltered cockpit, an engine that has another 20 thousand hours left on it before it's likely to need replacement, and plenty of stowage space, for under $130k? 

If yes, then I need to hear about this deal!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

PsySailor said:


> Let's not complicate the issue. Obviously nobody can say how much $ I'll need to put into my boat to keep it floating over the next 3 years.
> 
> Let's assume that my judgement is correct, and the boat I'm buying at $130k will only need $2400 per year for the next 5 years to keep it in tip-top shape.
> 
> ...


Based on market, sounds like you have a good deal:
2004 catalina (Sail) Boats For Sale

and you have the income to support it. Just double check the expense numbers and go for it.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I hear that Cruisingdad is selling his C400 for $50K US to the first sailnetter to send him a tweet..  

(Let's see if he's paying attention  )


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

PsySailor said:


> Well you guys make some excellent points. In terms of the financial investment, there's probably no question that an older boat wins, but won't I have to do PLENTY of work myself on the boat? What if I don't have the time to master the boat craft? That's my worry...
> 
> I wasn't aware that a 7 year old boat is "ready for everything to be replaced". I was under the impression that was 20 years for most boats. Mine's a Catalina, so we'll say 20 years. I was under the impression that you can get 10 years out of sails easily... Especially one like my boat which has barely ever been sailed. It has 200 engine hours... The thing looks to me basically brand new. The rigging all looks brand new to me, the halyards and sheets are bright and colorful and new looking. The sails look 3 years old to me.
> 
> ...


Sounds much better man, I thought you were broke and about to make yourself more broke! :laugher

I can't afford to pay others to work on my boat, so i've read and learned how to do most things. It could end up being the same for you. All I can say is keep asking questions - there are no stupid ones...

That's a hell of alot of boat and would intimidate me just trying to leave the dock. Have fun, it'll be awesome!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Let us know how it turns out or if you have more questions. I would love to help you sail her home but am 5k miles away. I also do not think I could handle the cold- blood has gotten to thin.
Regards


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

These are my thoughts exactly casey1999. Mind you, my boat is actually a 387 not the 400. (130k for a 2004 400 would be a steal!)

That said, I could be underestimating my expenses. And I'm very concerned because this purchase is borderline for us. If any major systems go wrong in the first year, we'll be in quite the pickle. (Primarily because 130k has a corresponding $18k tax associated with it...)

Basically I'll end up having to borrow money at unfriendly interest rates to keep this thing going. 

Well unless anyone has information that will scare me out of this purchase, I guess I'll be living the dream next summer.  Thanks again everyone for helping me out!

(I got ahold of macdonald and they quoted me at $2550 for the slip for next summer.)


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

killarney_sailor said:


> Gee, it seems like you not done all your homework first. You need to be sure that you somewhere to keep the boat before you actually own it. Too late for that I guess. One problem on Lake Ontario is that yacht clubs and marinas were typically built decades ago when boats were smaller (and less beamy) so that docks for bigger boats can be an issue even when there are lots of dock available form smaller boats. There are liveaboards at Port Credit Marina but I don't know about availability. It would be a good idea to get yourself on the list for 2012/3 now though.
> 
> You 'may' have to do one administrative thing in the US before registering the boat in Canada. It involves state/provincial registration vs federal in both countries. We bought a boat in Rhode Island that was federally registered (I think they call it 'documented') in the US and wanted to federally register in Canada (not license in Ontario). To do this we had to provide a form from the US Coast Guard saying that the boat had had it is US documentation cancelled. This involved a company to do the paperwork and cost us about $200. I don't think we would have needed this if the boat had state registration in the US or if we wanted an Ontario license.
> 
> ...


I bought a USCG-documented boat in the US and needed to de-document it so it could be state registerd. I employed a marine titling specialist, which was a great move. The de-document process is not terribly complicated, but you should use the USCG bill of sale form and the application has to be signed by the previous owner, ie the person who documented it. I suspect you might also need a bill of sale in the Canadian format for the new registration!

I don't know if Canada requires proof of de-documentation but US states DO. It can take up to 3 months to process.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

PsySailor said:


> These are my thoughts exactly casey1999. Mind you, my boat is actually a 387 not the 400. (130k for a 2004 400 would be a steal!)
> 
> That said, I could be underestimating my expenses. And I'm very concerned because this purchase is borderline for us. If any major systems go wrong in the first year, we'll be in quite the pickle. (Primarily because 130k has a corresponding $18k tax associated with it...)
> 
> ...


Just be careful how much you want to bite off. Part of sailing is having freedom, at not being tied down or woried how you will make this months boat payments and expenses. You do not want to be sailing and fearful somthing might break (because it will) and wonder how you will pay for it. Also, maybe economy in Canada is much better than the US, but what if one of you loses your job, can you still make the payments, or will you be forced to sell. If all this concerns you, maybe a smaller boat may be a better choice, a lot of couples live and sail (and circumnavigate) on much less expensive (both purchase and maintenace wise) 35 footers and they are easier to maintain which means more time sailing. Also, a 35 footer is about the maximum size most would want to single hand- a nice option if you cannot find crew at the time you want to sail.
Regards


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Okay, since you're hellbent on buying the Catalina, and you are disregarding much of the advice from those who have bought the t-shirt, at least do yourself a favour and learn how to do basic maintenance. Buy Casey's and Calder's books and some tools as a bare minimum.

At $65k a year, you earn about $32/hr.
Most boatyards, especially in the 905/416 charge $90/hr. 
It's worth it for you to at least learn the basics.


If you compare maintaining a sailboat and the life expectancy of components on a sailboat to owning a Honda Civic, you need to do some learning, quick.

Enjoy your new boat. Hopefully I will see you at the boat show next month. 


Edit- just read your last post. Look, not to sound like your dad or something, but if this purchase is "borderline" for you, then you can't afford it. 

Period. 

Look cheaper. 

Your financial security, stress level and likely your relationship with your fiancee depend on it.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

MarkSF said:


> I bought a USCG-documented boat in the US and needed to de-document it so it could be state registerd. I employed a marine titling specialist, which was a great move. The de-document process is not terribly complicated, but you should use the USCG bill of sale form and the application has to be signed by the previous owner, ie the person who documented it. I suspect you might also need a bill of sale in the Canadian format for the new registration!
> 
> I don't know if Canada requires proof of de-documentation but US states DO. It can take up to 3 months to process.


I'm curious as to why you de-documented the boat?


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Oh, I could find lots of information to scare you!

It does sound like you're committed though. If you asked me what to do and told me not to worry about crushing your dreams, I would say, learn how to sail this summer, and if you're still digging it, start looking for your boat in August. Most marinas haul at the end of October, and most sellers would love to have someone take the winter storage fees off there hands.

Also, the Catalina is a production boat, meaning there are a number of them usually available at any given time. Who knows, after sailing for the summer, you may want a different boat.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I know the great lakes are at times boil'n worse than ocean waters. I understand what your say'n about re-sale value. I like the Benteau first/ Shoal Draft series with the wing Keel thing. I deliverd one to Columbia a few years back and it handled like a champ. When I was a rigger in Miami, we were never big fan's of the Catalina's. Always felt they chinced a little on the hull thickness and chain plates. That was before, I have'nt been on the newer big ones. If you have the money, Why not buy the boat you like. I wish you luck with the re-sale. People buy Catalina's, They pay big bucks for Hunter's. A 25k Westsail is wicked comfy, and people buy those. Think of all the money you'd have left over to for Nice marina's and Dinner's a shore. I do know that lake weather will change in N.Y. min. and catch you off guard. I'd like to think you are out there on something sea worthy and safe. I'm sure the Catalina will suit all your need's and it will probably be easy to sell. I've never seen a boat that did'nt have stuff break'n all the time. Every time some plastic gadget with wires stick'n out of breaks around me I give it a float test and get along with out it. I'm down to a hull, mast, and sail's now and nothing break's any more. Just look around a little at the 40 something Soverel's with the center board. Awsome boat's. Best of luck to you. P.S. I never thought I would suggest this, but look at the Morgan Out Islander. I actually played Basket ball in a gutted one once. But seriously, Big, comfy,all the bell's and whistle's. "Made for Mama" as my grandpa used to say. The big Trip Columbia's are great, deep keel though. Listen carefully to what every body is say'n 'bout the cost of having a boat. Mine barley cost's anything because I keep it on an anchor in the Fla. Key's for free. I don't have an engine, and I use a gallon jug to wash off the salt water after I bath in the ocean. That won't work for you or your Girl I don't immagine. Best wishes.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

You guys are starting to scare the **** out of me. 

Here's some more info:

I am definitely planning to learn how to repair my own boat. I have already been watching videos and reading books. 

I've already done a budget and it looks like $2400 of maintenance is okay for the first year. Second year maintenance worst case is: $4800 And 3rd year is around $10000. 

My skills are very high in demand and will continue to be for the next 60 years. My 65k a year will go up to 125k a year in 10 years. Her 50k will go to 75k in 10 years.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Well, you sure are determined

Just factor in a few more costs.

Insurance: $1500 ? 
$2550 slip fee is just for the summer, so double that for the full year, correct?
Lessons and a delivery captain, $1000-$1500
Licenses, (PCOC, VHF Radio Operator, Toronto Harbour) $150? 
Fuel, pumpouts $?


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Insurance: $685
Slip fee: $2550 x2 correct. 
Delivery Captain: $0 (found one already, he's free)
Licenses: I've budgeted $1600 since i'm taking marine repair courses, cellestial navigation, VHF, and nautical charting. (Already have PCOC)
Fuel and pumpouts: included in the $2400 a year in maintenance. Is that bad?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

PsySailor said:


> I am definitely planning to learn how to repair my own boat. I have already been watching videos and reading books.
> 
> I've already done a budget and it looks like $2400 of maintenance is okay for the first year. Second year maintenance worst case is: $4800 And 3rd year is around $10000.
> 
> .


Where are you getting your maintenance figures from? 
Frankly, they are backwards. Usually the first year of ownership is most expensive, and costs decrease from there.

Have you had this boat surveyed?
Do you plan to have an engine survey done as well?
Have you priced a new main and jib for your boat?
How many gallons of anti-fouling paint are needed every other year?
Have you factored in anything that might break, sink, or get lost due to novice inexperience?

The general rule of thumb when buying a boat is to budget 20% to cover repairs, upgrades etc., in year one.


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

I'd think you need to increase your maintenance #s due to the fact that you're going to
be living on it. Remember, what attracted you to this boat was it's "lack of use", in that
"everything looks new and it only has 'X' number of hours"....that's all going to be the exact
opposite for you, because you're going to be on the boat 24/7 which means 1000% more
wear and tear than the boat has seen to date, and in reality, than it was designed for.
Plus, it's always better to err on the side of caution. That way, if you over estimate, the
worst thing that can happen is you have more money left over at the end of the year.

I bought a new house once and promptly turned around and spent $45k on it in the first
year. Things happen, needs and desires change, etc. etc. etc. Finance as absolutely little
as is possible because the expense of interest is wasted money. Banks are rich enough.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

> The general rule of thumb when buying a boat is to budget 20% to cover repairs, upgrades etc., in year one.


Like he said.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I just looked at the listing. Since you plan to liveaboard year round, have you factored in the cost of a cockpit enclosure, and /or shrinkwrapping in the winter?
How do you plan to keep warm? there is no heating system.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Compare the 387 to this:

Harris & Ellis Yachts (Oakville, ON)


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

bljones said:


> I just looked at the listing. Since you plan to liveaboard year round, have you factored in the cost of a cockpit enclosure, and /or shrinkwrapping in the winter?
> How do you plan to keep warm? there is no heating system.


Since when is Canadia COLD??? 

That's a good point! How much are heaters?


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Confucius says :

Man who budgets 20K for maintenance in the first year, but ends up spending $2400, is a happy one.

Man who budgets $2400 and spends $20K, not so happy.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

bljones said:


> Compare the 387 to this:
> 
> Harris & Ellis Yachts (Oakville, ON)


Nice!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

LandLocked66c said:


> Since when is Canadia COLD???
> 
> That's a good point! How much are heaters?


2-3 times this years maintenance budget for a good Webasto. Or, go the bulkhead mount dickinson route for only half of the maintenance budget. Or, buy electric heaters and hope that the shorepower and the panel can handle the load for 25% of this years maintenance budget.

That is the challenge with bigger boats. It's nice to have space, but you've got to heat it.

Psy, If I was in your shoes, I'd wait until the boat show before I pulled the trigger on anything. Walk through a crapload of boats with your fiancee and someone with some experience and then debrief. You'll lear a lot about what you like and don't like and what you need versus what you want.

SWMBO and I will be there. You buy the beer and I'll help you find a boat.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Again, the assumption is that the boat is almost brand new. Nothing will need to be replaced/fixed in the first year. 

I could either buy a $90000 boat and keep $20000 aside for repair, or I could spend $130000 on the boat that will really make me happy and not do any modifications for the foreseeable future...

Am I being stupid? Can you not pay upfront for a good boat? Or is it true that in the boating industry every boat sucks when you first buy it and you have to spend money after-the-fact? 

I looked at this boat in person... It's brand new, aside from the year it was built.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

I couldn't purchase this Harris & Ellis Yachts (Oakville, ON)

because the banks see things how I see them. A boat older than 20 years is a crap shoot.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Everyone's tastes are different, but I'd much rather own that Landfall then a Catalina! You're tastes more than likely will change as you learn more and see other boats. Listen to these guys - they won't mis-lead you...


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

bljones said:


> 2-3 times this years maintenance budget for a good Webasto. Or, go the bulkhead mount dickinson route for only half of the maintenance budget. Or, buy electric heaters and hope that the shorepower and the panel can handle the load for 25% of this years maintenance budget.
> 
> That is the challenge with bigger boats. It's nice to have space, but you've got to heat it.
> 
> ...


I hear you... My friend gave me a diesel heater that will easily do the whole boat. I really only need it when we are awake and onboard. Heat will actually be fairly cheap. (I sleep in -50, since I'm Canadian... The colder the better.)

And the "check out some boats at the boat show" idea... Been there done that. Did that at the last big boat show in August 2011. We know what we want


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

You should wait for the boat show. Judging by the offers, you get could hammered for free. I'll buy you a water 

I saw the listing for the Catalina. Two things, it has a shoal draft, which in my mind isn't necessary for Lake Ontario, and you sacrifice some upward performance, but maybe someone who is familiar with the 387 will say otherwise. 

Also, at the risk of getting into a good old fashioned donnybrook with the old salts here, I would prefer it had a furling main. I think when 2017 rolls around, they will be so commonplace that it could be a deal breaker at re-sale.

Just hold out for the boat show, just....a.....little......bit......longer....And then you can take a look at HUNTERS!


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

You are not being stupid. And yes, an older boat is a crap shoot. You can definatly buy a boat in good condition and have very little go wrong with it. especially for 100+k. Boat show's are neat. Listen to these dude's. Don't jump in head first, Wade in and test the water. Go to the boat show with someone who really know's. Those Hunter Passages are cool boat's. Just every time I see one out, it's either someone who rented it, or paid twice what I think there worth for it. They pull in to the anchorage two boat length's up wind of ya, and drop a 25 pound plow. The rig is stupid, double diamond with mushroom head swage fiitings, how do you fix that in a pinch?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

PsySailor said:


> I hear you... My friend gave me a diesel heater that will easily do the whole boat. I really only need it when we are awake and onboard. Heat will actually be fairly cheap. (I sleep in -50, since I'm Canadian... The colder the better.)
> 
> And the "check out some boats at the boat show" idea... Been there done that. Did that at the last big boat show in August 2011. We know what we want


If you know everything, then why are you here asking for advice?

Look, it sounds like you are taking a loan out for as much boat as you can buy, but you aren't setting aside any buffer.

Never assume.

You have used the word "assumption" several times in this thread. You assume this boat is going to need nothing because it looks brand new. You assume that your free diesel heater will a) work, b ) install without major furniture mods, and c) heat the boat. You have yet to explain how you came up with your maintenance figures, which leads me to believe you have made another assumption.
Will the marina provide bubblers, or do you have to buy your own? Another cost to factor in.

How many boats have you looked at?
Have you spent any time sleeping on a boat?
Has your fiancee spent any time sleeping on a boat?

$130 Gs is a grip of cash to commit. It never hurts to make sure you have evaluated all of the available options.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

How many boats have you looked at? Between 15 and 30.
Have you spent any time sleeping on a boat? No.
Has your fiancee spent any time sleeping on a boat? No.

@bljones: 
It seems that the worst that can happen (if I buy this boat that is a little too expensive) is that it will take me longer than I am planning to pay off the boat. (Yes it's a loan). Which means my worst case scenario is doable, just not ideal. I'm willing to take that risk. (And give the bank more money in interest)

My maintenance figures? You mean how much I think I will need to spend? Or how much money I have on hand? 

I have no idea how much maintenance will cost. I know I have to give the engine an oil change, fuel it up every once in a while, pump out the holding tank, and probably shine up the bottom of the boat every once in a while (haul out). 

The amount of money I have on hand for maintenance was calculated based on a budget I drew up which uses projections of future income along with available cash, minus expenses.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

On the Cal 29 there is no system onboard that is not 2011

I keep the boat in my driveway in the winter

And 4000 dollars is a barebones NOTHING goes wrong figure per season.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

> "And 4000 dollars is a barebones NOTHING goes wrong figure per season."


Okay... I guess I will take your word for it.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Are you suggesting that I think about buying the Cal 29 from you?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

PsySailor said:


> My maintenance figures? You mean how much I think I will need to spend? Or how much money I have on hand?
> 
> I have no idea how much maintenance will cost. I know I have to give the engine an oil change, fuel it up every once in a while, pump out the holding tank, and probably shine up the bottom of the boat every once in a while (haul out).
> 
> The amount of money I have on hand for maintenance was calculated based on a budget I drew up which uses projections of future income along with available cash, minus expenses.


Oh dear.

The boat needs what it needs- it doesn't matter how much cash you've got, so basing your maintenance budget on what you can afford is an ass-backwards approach to boat ownership.
Figure out what the boat will really, actually, real-world NEED in the next five years. Not what you hope it will need, not what you wish it will need, not what you can afford it to need. This is where a thorough survey comes in handy.
Then figure out what upgrades you AND YOUR FIANCEE want to make, to make the boat yours. Maybe a new chartplotter, or a new flat screen tv or microwave or a cockpit enclosure, or a decent non-mildewing mattress, whatever. Add that into your budget.

If you're still coming up with only $2400 in year one....


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

The boat comes equipped with everything we want/need already. 

I am getting a survey done. But in the winter, surveys can only survey so much.

I am not sure what else I can do to anticipate what I will need to fix on the boat in 2012.

Thanks for your advice.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I am suggesting that your COMPLEATLY out of touch as to what it cost to do anything to a 40' boat


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Okay tommays, thanks. I will try to discover what you are talking about and where $4000 dollars will be going in 2012 for my boat maintenance.

As I said, I am already blindly taking your word for it. $4000 dollars is now the updated figure in my budget. It means that it will take an additional 0.78 weeks to pay off my boat at my interest rate.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I did not mean to suggest you had not done your homework on the boat but on the place to keep her. 40' is a bit of a problem on Lake Ontario and year-round liveaboard is a bigger one as you are finding out. 

I completely agree about learning how to fix stuff onboard. Get Nigel Calder's book on electrical and mechanical systems - it is the Bible of boat books in my mind.

I think you are optimistic about not having to fix anything major on the boat - stuff happens. A good boat is like a hammer - change the head and the handle every so often and it will last forever. I would be looking for a mid 80s boat that has had a knowledgeable and generous owner. A few months ago there was a Nonsuch 36 for sale it Midland that apparently has/had such an owner - it has been kept up incredibly from what I heard by a owner who did not sale much but liked to putter on this boat. The Nonsuch is very easy to sail (one large sail) and extremely spacious since it is very beamy. They were built in St Catherines.

I am quite leery of wing keels, if you run aground you are really stuck since you can't heel the boat to get off and the wind provides all sorts of suction (especially if it is mud). Not sure about the Catalina you are considering but some of the shoal draft Catalinas have the rudder sticking down an inch or two further than the keel - not good since the rudder may hit something the keel misses. On Lake Ontario, you don't have to be too shoal - 5'6" is fine; 6' can be pushing your luck if it has been a dry summer and lake level is low - not a problem in Port Credit but can be in lots of places.


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## Cherie320 (Aug 13, 2010)

PsySailor

You have asked several times to be told why not to buy. The reason is that you want to sell the boat in 3 years. A boat is expensive to maintain and it is a depreciating asset. That does not fit with a sell strategy. 

The boat will not fall apart in 3 years, but it will age considerably with 10 years of life and 3 years as a live aboard. The electronics will be outside their useful life and need to be replaced or your sales price discounted ($1500-3000). The sails will be ready for replacement ($3000-6000). All the hardware will need to be rebeded (you can do it - $200). The batteries, if they are not close to toast now, will be in 3 years ($350-800). The engine will need regular maintenance ($200-800/year). You may have to install a new cutlass bearing, but the low engine hours may let you dodge that one. The stuffing box needs to be maintained (you can do it - $100 for material and wrenches). You may lose a water pump ($150). There are two in the boat. Hot water tanks and refrigeration can fail at 10 years ($200-800). The head should be replaced for livaboard use ($400-600). Your lady will need an electric if it's a manual and Jabsco should get replaced with a Raritan. If there is only a single electric bilge pump, you need to install a backup ($300). You need a high level bilge alarm ($100). You need a CO detector if the boat does not have one installed ($200). You will find that if you sail, you will want to change something. A smaller head sail ($2000), a cruising spinaker/light air sail ($2000), or repairs, because the jib unrolled in a storm ($500). If you are going to sell you need the sails cleaned and repaired if not replaced ($400). The hull needs to be waxed (do it your self - $100 for tools and materials). You need to keep the bottom clean and zincs replaced regularly ($400/year). You know about the bottom job - until you see it, you will not know if old needs to be removed, or the existing will take a new coat. Plan on a bottom job before you sell. You need an extra set of fenders to replace the ones that drifted away of got ripped on a piling ($100). You need to fix at least one lifeline that you will damage while you are learning to drive the boat($150). You will need new dock lines ($100). You will need the lights replaced in the boat to reduce the power consumption so you do not need an expensive battery system and to add resale value ($150). There will be at least two design faults that need to be fixed - read up on the 387 site and find out what they are. The cushion snaps will need to be replaced - get a kit and tool ($50).................. 

Now, you can save a lot by doing the work yourself and the Catalina support groups are a great help. The bad news is that you want to sell in 3 years. If you are a couple who keep everything as brand new - maybe........


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

PsySailor said:


> The boat comes equipped with everything we want/need already.


Except heat. And, if you and your significant other have never even slept on a sailboat, how do you know what you want or need to be comfortable living aboard?

A winter survey is fine- in fact, the fact that the boat is on the hard and dry makes a bottom inspection easier. You have of course bought this boat conditional upon survey AND seatrial, correct?

I am a little confused about how your loan relates to maintenance- a couple of times you have touched on the idea that if the maintenance is higher than expected, it will take you longer to pay off the boat. Does that mean you have also factored into your budget a consistent paydown on principal on an annual/biannual monthly basis? If so, will the bank allow it? Boat loans are often fixed term with no prepayment option except payout upon sale. Or are you hoping to renegotiate at the end of each term, like homeowners often do with a mortgage?


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Great stuff here! The veterans don't lie, just trying to help!


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

bljones said:


> A winter survey is fine- in fact, the fact that the boat is on the hard and dry makes a bottom inspection easier.


I don't quite agreee with that statement. A short article from my website (minus the photos) explains why........

FROZEN BOAT SURVEYS

My business slows down over the winter months and I get a little stir crazy because I'm the type that needs to keep busy. So while I will survey some frozen boats, it is important that you understand the limitations of what I can tell you about moisture content and core condition. The two primary methods of determining core condition and moisture content are ......

Moisture Meters which do not measure moisture, they measure capacitance (pretty much like conductivity). When moisture in the structure is frozen, it crystalizes and all that air between the ice crystals reduces conductivity so the meter gives false low readings.

Percussive Sounding (Whacking with a hammer) is the other and sometimes more reliable method of finding wet core but when frozen, the core often sounds like dry, solid core unless there is some delamination, core separation or a large void.

While I will sometimes survey frozen boats, you must realize that I cannot positively tell you the condition of any cored structure whether it be balsa or foam core decks & hulls or plywood cored transoms. It is rare to find an older boat without some degree of moisture in the core or between the laminate and the core. Please also note that on rare occasions I have seen boats just a couple of years old with large areas of rotten core and don't forget that the surveyor might not be as reliable when his fingers are frozen.

Rotten deck core is an expensive problem to fix and I may survey the vessel as long as you understand the limitations but I strongly suggest you wait til' spring or until the boat has been above freezing temperature for at least 48hrs.

Please also remember that I can only inspect what I can get to. Canvas or shrink wrap covers will certainly hinder examination to some degree.

If you are considering a vessel with a cored hull and want to have it surveyed in a frozen condition please consider hiring someone else as I don't like working for crazy people


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

The other option you may consider is buying a condo with a veiw of the marina and rent a sail boat on the weekend's.


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

Wow! You're taking one big enormous leap!
I wish you well.
My concern would be plan "B": getting out financially intact should a passage of time and events conspire against you.
I am reminded of my Dad buying a 55' Trumpy upon retirement, only to discover that boat expenses were so great that he could not afford to go anywhere even when diesel was 10 cents a gal.
Yes, I know it's a sailboat, but have you cost out a sail for a 40 footer?
I believe that you are in a buying mode and nothing is going to stop you, so therefore have a professional sail maker evaluate the sails!


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

Out of curiousity, have you already secured your loan, or is the broker giving you the "oh, it won't be a problem"
answer?

All these guys/gals are trying to give you good advice, as there's quite the fallacy about the
"Dream of living aboard a sailboat" all over the internet. Please remember that for every
"success story" there are probably about 10 failed relationships with sailboats. At least.
I know, the next thought that enters your mind is, "but we're different"; that's exactly what
the other 10 thought as well.

If you think you're unique in this "dream", search right here in Sailnet alone and you'll find
probably 10 threads within the last several weeks of people thinking exactly like you, at
least on some level. I know a lot of liveaboards and, at least among the ones I know, not
a single one of them lives aboard because they find it "better" than say living in a house.
The ones I know do so because of the travel part, not the bumping your head in the head
part. I'm only mentioning this because the heart is not where you find logic and reasoning,
and it shouldn't be of course. However, reality always stares us in the face when we're
least expecting it, so take these tidbits of suggestion and study them because most
"surprises" in life are 100% avoidable. I still wish you best luck and hope you find exactly
what you're looking for, but just like everything in life, wisdom comes from experience....not planning.


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## honukai30 (Dec 21, 2011)

Psysailor,
I didn't realize, I hi-jacked your thread.
Sorry...!
Honukai30


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

honukai30 said:


> Psysailor,
> I didn't realize, I hi-jacked your thread.
> Sorry...!
> Honukai30


Your inquiry has been moved to it's own thread, see your PMs


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Cherie320 said:


> PsySailor
> 
> You have asked several times to be told why not to buy. The reason is that you want to sell the boat in 3 years. A boat is expensive to maintain and it is a depreciating asset. That does not fit with a sell strategy.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this very good information! Man, you are awesome!

I'm definitely already in the 387 user group getting emails about people talking about what they are doing for heating, and any problems with the boat they have experienced.

It does seem that many of these expenses are optional or necessary only after a few years of use. That's fine and expected. I never had such a complete list of repairs before. Thanks again!


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

bljones said:


> Except heat. And, if you and your significant other have never even slept on a sailboat, how do you know what you want or need to be comfortable living aboard?
> 
> A winter survey is fine- in fact, the fact that the boat is on the hard and dry makes a bottom inspection easier. You have of course bought this boat conditional upon survey AND seatrial, correct?
> 
> I am a little confused about how your loan relates to maintenance- a couple of times you have touched on the idea that if the maintenance is higher than expected, it will take you longer to pay off the boat. Does that mean you have also factored into your budget a consistent paydown on principal on an annual/biannual monthly basis? If so, will the bank allow it? Boat loans are often fixed term with no prepayment option except payout upon sale. Or are you hoping to renegotiate at the end of each term, like homeowners often do with a mortgage?


The way I understand it, is that it is an open-ended loan with a fixed interest rate that gets negotiated every 2 years. We are responsible for a minimum monthly payment, which we can overpay as much as we want.

We are targetting completely paying off the boat in 3 years, because the longer it takes us the more interest we end up paying. So the more unexpected maintenance that pops up, the less we can put down every month on our loan.

It's conditional on survey only. No sea trial.

And survey's in the winter are NOT good at all. Think of all the systems that are currently winterized. You can't survey those properly! Surveyor can only say "it appears to be in good order". 
-can't start the engine
-can't test pressure water
- can't test hot water
-can't test head
-can't do moisture test on hull

All the surveyor can really do is test electronics and take a look at everything to detect odours or things that are visually damaged.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

You intend to pay off a $110,000 loan in three years. On a $35-40K annual after tax income.

Good luck with that.

Systems that are winterized can, and should, be "unwinterized' for survey. This IS a good time of year for a survey as the boat is on the hard, yet nothing is frozen... yet.

Any other winter, not so much, but this winter we have been lucky with a very late freeze.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

boatpoker said:


> I don't quite agreee with that statement. A short article from my website (minus the photos) explains why........
> 
> FROZEN BOAT SURVEYS
> 
> ...


Yeah it is balsa cored hull I believe.

Hmm... I figured odds are pretty low that a 2004 Catalina would have rotten core issues...

But if you've seen it before, then I guess they can't be that rare...

I guess in light of this information, I better wait till spring.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Believe it or not leaks are REALLY common on brand new production boats as its is expensive to seal hardware correctly and the full head liners do a great job of hiding the leaks


Its much like a drip in a pipe behind sheetrock in a home by the time you find it a simple repiar turns into a pretty big deal


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Surveyors, what do you guys think about surveying the boat in the winter if a heater is placed inside (for 24 hours so the hull is warm) and the survey takes place on a day that is above 0 (yes, lately many days in the winter are above 0 degrees celsius)?

Can an adequate moisture test be done? Any other risks? 

Thanks.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

There are parts of a survey that need to be done with the boat out of the water and parts that need to be done with the boat in the water.
When I contracted to buy my current boat, it was in March and the boat was on the hard. I contacted a surveyor and worked it out that he came 2 times. First was to do his out of water survey. THe second time was a month later when the boat was in the water and we did the sea trial as part of the in water survey.
So don't buy a boat just on the "out of water" part of the survey. It needs to be in the water as well and sea trial done.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

I know. It's just that the boat is owned by the broker itself. They took the boat in as trade in. They were the original dealer of the boat as well. 

Please tell me if I'm being naive, but it seems that the broker would rather not take the boat as a trade in if it didn't pass all of their surveys and inspections... (Why would they take a damaged boat and risk not being able to sell it?)

The purchase agreement also stipulates that all systems must be functioning correctly when I take delivery. If anything doesn't work, they've got to fix it before I accept delivery. 

To me, it seems reasonable to get a winter survey (assuming they can check the hull and deck condition i.e. it is not frozen) and purchase the boat at a discount... I don't see where the risk is? 

Can anyone point out some potential risks I'm not thinking of? 

(I've worked it into my agreement that the broker (seller) is responsible for launching and commissioning the boat and making sure all systems are working (including the sail rig).)


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Is there any kind of warranty on this boat? How long are warranties on new boats anyways?


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

No Warranty. Once I take delivery (after I've inspected the boat with them and made sure everything is working, the boat floats, and sails correctly, etc...) anything that breaks is my problem. 

On the other hand, the broker did assure me that if I'm sailing away and discover the auto pilot doesn't work (for example) then to just let him know and they will fix it for me before I travel back to Canada.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*It is about degrees of damage or repair need*



PsySailor said:


> Please tell me if I'm being naive, but it seems that the broker would rather not take the boat as a trade in if it didn't pass all of their surveys and inspections... (Why would they take a damaged boat and risk not being able to sell it?)
> 
> The purchase agreement also stipulates that all systems must be functioning correctly when I take delivery. If anything doesn't work, they've got to fix it before I accept delivery.


I think you are thinking of boat problems as either a yes or no thing. Especially on a fairly new boat you are unlikey to find anything that is completely bad. Perhaps a few of the deck fittings may need to be reinstalled with new compound. Maybe water got into the deck core in a couple of small spots. These are not big deals and not deal breakers but they do affect the overall value of the boat. The way it works is that the surveyor checks the boat over and finds whatever defects there are. You then negotiate with the seller either, they fix the defects or the price is reduced to a mutually agreed figure to allow you to fix the problem. That is why you want to give the surveyor every advantage to find everything that could be wrong with the boat. BTW, if an agreement cannot be reached then you can legally walk away from the deal.

Also, since the broker you have been dealing with is also the owner of this boat, I think you are actually dealing with a dealer rather than a broker. I have no idea what impact this might have from a legal perspective. It is a shame you do not have a good buyer's broker on this. His/her expertise would be invaluable since you are new to this. I suspect it might not very well now since it seems lae in the process and there is no commission being paid on the boat (hope this is reflected in the price). Normally the seller pays a 10% commission that can be split if there is a buyer's broker. Don't know what others would think about this?


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

It does sound like you're buying from a good dealer. I looked at them online, and they get nothing but glowing reviews.


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

Sounds like you first need to decide whether you're going to purchase the boat or commandeer it. Commandeering is cheaper but makes titleing the thing tougher and you'll be moving it ALOT


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm just wondering if by heating up the boat (with heaters inside for 24 hours), a proper moisture test and hull/deck survey can be completed. We'll also choose a mild day for the inspection (so the hands don't get cold). 

What do the surveyors out there have to say about an idea like that? 

(I'm relying on some good advice with regard to this, because its going to determine whether or not I buy the boat.)

At this point, the only real risk I foresee, is if there's minor leaks or core rot that goes undetected. (Since the dealer is responsible for making every system work properly before I take delivery) So to me, it doesn't matter if the head doesn't flush. That'll be taken care of in the summer when we inspect all the systems.

So I want the surveyor to have a fair shot at mitigating this risk that I foresee. What does a surveyor say? (The AMS I'm in touch with hasn't replied to me yet, plus I would like a variety of opinions from the great surveyors on these boards.)


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

If you're not doing a "systems survey" until Spring, why not write the contract "Pending Spring Survery"
or something along those lines?


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Have you ever delt with a boat dealer? They want the sale now. 

I'm getting a winter price on the boat. I'm anxious for this discount. But not at the risk of major repairs necessary in spring. 

If there's too much risk, I'll just have to withdraw my offer and make another one in the spring... And anticipate paying a higher price...


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

In general terms, heating the boat from the inside may, depending on the outside temperature work for both my moisture meter and my infrared camera.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

boatpoker said:


> I am already familiar with the moisture content of this vessel as I metered and sounded it just a couple of weeks ago in very mild weather. As I said previously I cannot discuss this without permission of the person who paid me however if you look at the boat you will see clear evidence of major deck work having been done already. As I said get me that permission then buy me a beer at Port Credit Yacht Club and I'll tell you the whole story
> 
> In general terms, heating the boat from the inside may, depending on the outside temperature work for both my moisture meter and my infrared camera.


Welp, that pretty much sums up why it's marked down considerably!

So how old is old for a bank? Not that i'd ever want to finance something that floats...

Be careful, I bought a frozen "rotted" 23' boat that's i've been restoring for two years now!


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

PsySailor said:


> Have you ever delt with a boat dealer? They want the sale now.
> 
> I'm getting a winter price on the boat. I'm anxious for this discount. But not at the risk of major repairs necessary in spring.
> 
> If there's too much risk, I'll just have to withdraw my offer and make another one in the spring... And anticipate paying a higher price...


Don't let the "winter prices vs. spring price" thing get you too looped in. The
main element to any type "inventory sales business" is the 'bird in the hand' principle.
Truth is, by the time Spring rolls around, if that, or any other boat for that matter
is still in inventory, it's eating hay. What I mean by that is the dealer/broker
now has things like floor plan interest expense, depreciation, etc. to contend
with. In any type major ticket purchase, the item being sold generates the
"best deal" for the seller the sooner it is sold. Yes, the market increases in
Spring but that also means the dealer pays more for his inventory than he did
approaching winter.

It's simple really; if the broker doesn't want to add a condition that makes you
comfortable, then there's something there and you should move on anyway.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

LandLocked66c said:


> So how old is old for a bank? Not that i'd ever want to finance something that floats...


My experience has been that traditional lenders won't consider paper on a boat more than 20 years old.


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

EDIT: Nevermind. Boatpoker had the wrong boat.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Well the lowball price sure makes a lot more sense now and a bit of dealer ethics 101 is showing up


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Wow what a turn of events... 

Incredible! 

I'm just working on substantiating boatpoker's claims...

Are you an AMS boatpoker? If not, what institution has accredited you? 

I would be interested in purchasing your information and or having you survey the boat again. 

Thanks in advance.

P.S. small world?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

PSYsailor Soooooooo sorry, that post was meant for another newbie on another forum, wrong boat !


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

JoeDiver said:


> EDIT: Nevermind. Boatpoker had the wrong boat.


I just feel like this needs to be repeated!

(I take back my previous post. World isn't so small after all.)


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

You may want to have poker go check the boat out for you. Sounds like an honest guy - doesn't want to see people get fleeced... Even if it's not a full survey, at least he could poke it with a stick and let you know if any glaring issues come up.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

He lives way too far from the boat if he's talking about Port Credit. I'm not interested in paying $500 in travel expenses.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

PsySailor said:


> I'm not interested in paying $500 in travel expenses.


On a $130K purchase. 
Speaking of which, have you been approved for financing yet?


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

PsySailor said:


> He lives way too far from the boat if he's talking about Port Credit. I'm not interested in paying $500 in travel expenses.


Sounds like you better educate yourself quick if you want to avoid the random $500 dollar boat requirements... :laugher

Have you picked up Don Casey's literary works yet?


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

-Yes I've already been approved for loan pending the valuation of the boat coming from the surveyor is in-line with what I'm paying. 

-I already have an AMS surveyor, why would I spend an extra $500 on travel expenses just to have boatpoker, a guy I don't even know anything about except that he already made one big mistake... (no offense)


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

LandLocked66c said:


> Sounds like you better educate yourself quick if you want to avoid the random $500 dollar boat requirements... :laugher
> 
> Have you picked up Don Casey's literary works yet?


No, just trying to get through the materials I am already working on.

I will pick it up soon though.

==============

By the way, I'm still looking for guidance about what to do in terms of survey since it is winter. I don't want to take risk that something is wrong with the hull, and it sounds like even if we put heater in the boat prior to the survey, it likely won't make it any easier to test the hull.

I suggested to the dealer the following:

-A second survey in the spring, and any damage he finds wrong with the boat the dealer is responsible for before I take delivery.

But since I'm new, I really don't know if that's the best thing I could ask for. The dealer has already made clear that no warranty whatsoever would be considered. And if I put in the contract that sale depends on survey in spring, then they won't accept offer.

EDIT: so the current state I'm in right now with the dealer is if they don't accept my counter offer, then I'm walking away. I don't see any other compromise that I'd be willing to make... But if there are other ideas out there? I am not too eager to walk away. If we can get the terms of sale under my risk tolerance, then I'm happy to buy a new boat


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

PsySailor said:


> But since I'm new, I really don't know if that's the best thing I could ask for. The dealer has already made clear that no warranty whatsoever would be considered. And if I put in the contract that sale depends on survey in spring, then they won't accept offer.


Those are the pitfalls of buying in the winter. You'll just have to feel them out...


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

LandLocked66c said:


> Sounds like you better educate yourself quick if you want to avoid the random $500 dollar boat requirements... :laugher
> 
> Have you picked up Don Casey's literary works yet?


And also a way to hide the random $500 dollar boat requirements from the wife/partner unless she in on the boat thing 100%.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I think you are wise to make your offer conditional on spring survey- you should also make the offer conditional on seatrial as well. If the dealer balks, let them try to sell the boat to somebody else. In winter. In upstate new york. When you look at Navy Point's listings and the length of time the boats have been listed, you will see that it isn't the fastest moving market around. 
It certainly isn't like the real estate market in the 416- or like buying a used car. Navy Point is still trying to sell boats that were listed when we bought our boat...
...in 2008.
In the meantime, you may find a boat better suited to living aboard. A Catalina 387 wouldn't be my first choice for year round accommodation in Ontario.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

PsySailor said:


> No, just trying to get through the materials I am already working on.
> 
> I will pick it up soon though.
> 
> ...


From what others say, the dealer may be fair and although you never know, the boat is probably in pretty good shape with nothing major wrong, if similar Catalina have not had a history of problems. But remember, the person with the cash in hand is the person with power. Once the dealer has your money, it could be expensive to get somthing fixed, and lawyers are expensive and courts are slow- not really where you would want to end up. And hiring expert witness (surveyor) will not be cheap either. Can you send a link for the boat listing? Also, where did Poker mess up? Cannot quite follow this thread. I might also add that if you are in Canada and boat dealer is in US, if there is a disagreement, things might get complicated.
Regards


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

casey1999 said:


> From what others say, the dealer may be fair and although you never know, the boat is probably in pretty good shape with nothing major wrong, if similar Catalina have not had a history of problems. But remember, the person with the cash in hand is the person with power. Once the dealer has your money, it could be expensive to get somthing fixed, and lawyers are expensive and courts are slow- not really where you would want to end up. And hiring expert witness (surveyor) will not be cheap either. Can you send a link for the boat listing? Also, where did Poker mess up? Cannot quite follow this thread.
> Regards


Yes, this is the thing I'm most worried about. Even if they agree to fix problems found in the boat, once I've handed over $130000, they could easily try to tie up the matter in court. There's no way I could fight it... I just gave them 130000 mind you. That's all my monies...

That's why I'm trying to get a second opinion. If a boat dealer pulls this crap, they stand to lose their reputation, which could be more costly to them then just fixing my boat.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

PsySailor said:


> Yes, this is the thing I'm most worried about. Even if they agree to fix problems found in the boat, once I've handed over $130000, they could easily try to tie up the matter in court. There's no way I could fight it... I just gave them 130000 mind you. That's all my monies...
> 
> That's why I'm trying to get a second opinion. If a boat dealer pulls this crap, they stand to lose their reputation, which could be more costly to them then just fixing my boat.


I did read somewhere on the net that a person had bought a large sailboat and had problems with the gel coat. The factory did eventually fix it but it still cost the owner a lot of time and I am sure some un reimbursed costs. So even if the dealer fixes the problem, it could still cost you. Say they need to haul the boat for a warranty repair- where will you live? A hotel will costs a lot of money.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Is this the only boat for sale that you're interested in? Seems like a lot of hand wringing for a not very convenient purchase. Granted this is all new to you, but if i'm this "scared" going into a purchase then i'm not too sure this is a great choice right now. Buying a house isn't cheap and is similar in some instances with surveys and such. You can only go with what you are told and what "you" know. Since this will be your home you had better find the best one you can, It may not be this Catalina!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Psysailor... this is a family friendly site, so please avoid the f-bombs. 

So, from what I can gather from your situation, you are about to overcommit financially to a lifestyle/hobby that you don't truly know will suit you (and do not yet fully understand), you're fixated on this one boat out of literally hundreds available and you're trying to do this all at a distance in an area and at a time of year where all the normal transaction issues cannot be properly dealt with.

I think you need to take a deep breath, relax and start over.

It would be a smart investment for you to spend a couple of grand chartering a similar boat even for a few days/nights somewhere not too warm/comfortable and give this whole plan a trial. Against making a 100K+ decision with little foundation that outlay would likely pay off... and if your dealer still has that boat a month or two down the road the price will probably drop enough to offset that cost...

Just sayin.....


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

bljones said:


> A Catalina 387 wouldn't be my first choice for year round accommodation in Ontario.


How come? It seems to have everything we can think of (minus the heat which I have a plan to take care of).


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

LandLocked66c said:


> Is this the only boat for sale that you're interested in? Seems like a lot of hand wringing for a not very convenient purchase. Granted this is all new to you, but if i'm this "scared" going into a purchase then i'm not too sure this is a great choice right now. Buying a house isn't cheap and is similar in some instances with surveys and such. You can only go with what you are told and what "you" know. Since this will be your home you had better find the best one you can, It may not be this Catalina!


I really wish the focus was on solid advice, as opposed to people attempting to change the way I feel.

If we cut away all the emotional statements from this thread, we could probably have kept it down to 10 posts so far.

I'm really not interested in a guidance counsellor. Please tell me strategies, things you've done in the past, things to watch out for, etc...

And more specifically, I'm looking for clauses I should be adding to my purchase agreement that can make my winter boat as unrisky as possible...

EDIT: also note that this thread isn't just for me. It's for a lot of newbies out there looking to make a purchase on an expensive boat. That's why it's important to keep the useless junk out of the thread. The more clutter we add here, the harder it will be for others to sift through and find the useful information.

EDIT**: This also means that most of you will have nothing further to add, since you don't have any specific relevant information. It is perfectly okay to NOT POST in such a case.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

PsySailor said:


> How come? It seems to have everything we can think of (minus the heat which I have a plan to take care of).


It has a large companionway hatch which will let a lot of heat escape when opened, and will dump snow right on your head or allow rain water in, while you climb out.
No companionway doors, so every time you have to go in and out, you need to take out and stow the hatch boards.
No convenient wet hanging locker.
No easy way to access hull to add more insulation.
A close aft cabin overhead with an aluminum framed hatch conveniently located right over the head of the berth, so that any condensation or leakage drips right onto your face.
No cockpit enclosure.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

PsySailor said:


> I really wish the focus was on solid advice, as opposed to people attempting to change the way I feel.
> 
> If we cut away all the emotional statements from this thread, we could probably have kept it down to 10 posts so far.
> 
> ...


What I have found in my limited life experiences that if you need to depend on a contract to get what you want, you will probably be screwed. I bought my boat with the agreement written on a piece of scrap paper 3 inches by 5 inches. I did have it hauled and surveyed, some things were found and I liked the boat so I paid a couple thousand to fix them myself rather than nickel and dime the seller whom had reduced the selling price. In the end, the cheapest part of the deal is the selling price, up keep and depreciation is where the money is lost. I also built my house in Hawaii acting as an owner builder- sub contracted out all the major work including foundation, framing, siding, roofing, plumbing and electirical, septic- never had a contract for any work. We looked each other in the eye and if we liked what we saw, we shook hands to close the deal. When the work was done and I wrote the man a check. I think once you start down the road of putting everything in writing then everything basically goes down hill. I could have easily gotten screwed (as for some of my home building work I needed to pay up front money so that contractor could get materials). But I think that is what is wrong with todays society- you cannot really hold a person to their word, and shaking hands on a deal does not mean much.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

That's a fair point casey. I tend to agree with you. I would like to avoid having this deal rely heavily on "the contract".

I'm really leaning towards a spring offer as a result. That way I can have everything checked out properly and then call it a day.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

PsySailor said:


> That's a fair point casey. I tend to agree with you. I would like to avoid having this deal rely heavily on "the contract".
> 
> I'm really leaning towards a spring offer as a result. That way I can have everything checked out properly and then call it a day.


That is what I would do. A lot cleaner plus you leave the door open if you find somthing you like better. I think you have nothing to loose this way but potentially loose everything if you purchase now. Also, say you purchase now and the dealer goes out of buisness (maybe not your dealer, but maybe another in someone else's case), then the contract for inspection/repairs is probably invalid and you are stuck with what you bought as-is.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

PsySailor said:


> I really wish the focus was on solid advice, as opposed to people attempting to change the way I feel.
> 
> If we cut away all the emotional statements from this thread, we could probably have kept it down to 10 posts so far.
> 
> ...


Hmmm? I didn't really read it as super personal, just stating what's occurring as I understand it.

Being where you're at currently and a "deal" boat across a large body of water, this is usually when my wife/conscious would stop me cold in my tracks. She would ask me is this really the right boat, is this really the right time of year to be purchasing a boat? God i'm glad i'm married, she keeps money in our account!!! LOL

Edit - Good luck to yah, i'm sure you'll be happy with whatever you decide...
Here's my experience to date: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/63795-1970-oday-23-pop-top-project-has-begun.html

The little bit of boat shopping I did...
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/60683-info-70-oday-23-pop-top.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/60939-70-columbia-26-mkii-thoughts.html


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

casey1999 said:


> That is what I would do. A lot cleaner plus you leave the door open if you find somthing you like better. I think you have nothing to loose this way but potentially loose everything if you purchase now. Also, say you purchase now and the dealer goes out of buisness (maybe not your dealer, but maybe another in someone else's case), then the contract for inspection/repairs is probably invalid and you are stuck with what you bought as-is.


Excellent point!


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

So you'll be at the boat show then? 

Official site of the Toronto International Boat Show | Toronto, Ontario

I still think you should spend the summer learning and then buy in the fall and move aboard. There are some fractional clubs around you that will get you out on a new 36-40 foot cruiser for the spring and summer.

I think the combination of moving aboard and learning to sail all at the same time is a handful.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Ninefingers said:


> So you'll be at the boat show then?
> 
> Official site of the Toronto International Boat Show | Toronto, Ontario
> 
> ...


Yes probably, I gave dealer ultimatum: offer is pending successful sea trial and survey. He will probably reject offer.



Ninefingers said:


> I still think you should spend the summer learning and then buy in the fall and move aboard. There are some fractional clubs around you that will get you out on a new 36-40 foot cruiser for the spring and summer.
> .


I did not know about this. I will have to look into it. Any links to "fractional clubs"?

Thanks in advance.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Toronto Sailing with SailTime Toronto - Three Locations


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Ninefingers said:


> So you'll be at the boat show then?
> 
> Official site of the Toronto International Boat Show | Toronto, Ontario
> 
> ...


Many live aboards rarely or never sail because it is too much hassel to pack up their house and take her for a sail.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

bljones said:


> Toronto Sailing with SailTime Toronto - Three Locations


That's the one I am a member of. I am part of the downtown location. Out Psy's way there are some great members who are great sailors, including Don Green, captain and owner of Evergreen. Won the Canada's Cup and captained in the 1973 (?) Fastnet. Each boat has between 4 and 8 members at any given time.

You can PM if you want more info. I'm sure they would get you some passes for the boat show if you want to talk to them.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

bljones said:


> It has a large companionway hatch which will let a lot of heat escape when opened, and will dump snow right on your head or allow rain water in, while you climb out.
> No companionway doors, so every time you have to go in and out, you need to take out and stow the hatch boards.
> No convenient wet hanging locker.
> No easy way to access hull to add more insulation.
> ...


Interesting points. As a person who hasn't been on a boat much, I never would have thought of these things.

These are all fair points. Not exactly deal breakers since most of them can be remedied with home brew solutions...

Any suggestions of better boats for liveaboard? We looked at quite a few, and the Catalina's really caught our eye because of the large aft cabins. We also wanted something that sails well for the money. Catalinas also seem to hold their value better than say the Beneteaus.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

UPDATE: 

I made the decision to tell the dealer that I wanted sale agreement to be contingent on sea trial and survey.

Their response: 
Only at increased price, and even then, they won't reserve the boat for me. Other buyers are still free to make offers...

They say because sea trial is only typical for a brokered boat and since they are the original dealer of the boat and they are planning to deliver the boat to me in working condition with all systems good to go, this condition isn't necessary. 

They say if I want the boat at the price I'm getting it, then I need to close before Jan. 31st, 2012. 

They also say, that I am free to get a survey now and also a re-certification in the spring. Anything that my surveyor finds wrong with the boat, they will fix at their own expense before I they deliver it to me. 

Has anyone every bought a boat directly from a dealer before? 

It does seem like most of the advice given to me thus far has been within the context of purchasing a brokered boat, as opposed to dealing directly with a Catalina dealership. It seems what they are offering is reasonable. 

What is the common knowledge coming from the people who've done this before? Has anyone ever been screwed by trusting a dealership?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Lots of choices. Personally, if I was looking to buy a Great Lakes 4 season liveaboard I'd be looking for a pilothouse, and going a little smaller. A 32' pilothouse often has as much effective 4 season living space as a 36' boat. Plus, your maintenance and dockage costs may vbery well be lower. As a FIRST boat/4 seasons liveaboard, I'd be looking a lot cheaper, for a couple of reasons-

1. If you don't like it, your risk is lower. Even popular boats take time to sell, often more than a year, so if you decide to go back to the dirt, you aren't carrying a 6 figure boat nut while also paying rent/mortgage on land.

2. Most production boats aren't meant for winter habitation so you are gonna have to do some modifying to add insulation etc., and personally I am a LOT more comfortable drilling and sawing at a boat that isn't also substantially owned by the bank.

3. Often on an older boat the mods you would have to do are already done- hence, found money.

So, with no further ado, here are my 4-season liveaboard picks- others may have different ideas.

Under $125K, that meets the sub- 20 year financing criteria:

1991 Nauticat Motorsailer Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
Nauticats are tough to beat as a liveaboard, but not cheap.

1994 Pacific Seacraft Pilothouse 32 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Under $50 K, if you can swing cash:

1989 CAPITAL YACHTS Auxiliary Pilothouse Cutter Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

This one has been on the market for over a year- they might be open to offers:
1982 Tanzer 10.5 Pilothouse sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Real money on these is under $30K. the only two that have sold in the past two years have sold for under $25K. IMO they can be a great couples liveaboard, if arguably not the most attractive boat on the water:
1975 Fales 32 Navigator Pilothouse Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Lots of other options out there- a Fisher comes to mind, but beyond budget for cash and beyond age for financing, same with Endurance, Baba, Saturna, etc.,


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Psy, two concerns I would have in your shoes- 
1. It is a US boat and I am asuming you are financing through a Canadian bank- that means that the deal has to close with 120 days of your financing approval, otherwise you need to be reapproved, which means the dealer gets paid and you start paying upon closing, NOT upon commissioning of the boat. 

2. I don't give a crap whether it is a dealer boat or a broker boat, so the dealers assurances about what is normal in an agreement of sale doesn't matter to me. You are LEAVING the country of sale when the boat is splashed. You do not want to have to come back multiple times to pick up a boat that isn't as promised, with vague assurances from the broker/dealer that they will take care of it.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

LandLocked66c said:


> Hmmm? I didn't really read it as super personal, just stating what's occurring as I understand it.
> 
> Being where you're at currently and a "deal" boat across a large body of water, this is usually when my wife/conscious would stop me cold in my tracks. She would ask me is this really the right boat, is this really the right time of year to be purchasing a boat? God i'm glad i'm married, she keeps money in our account!!! LOL
> 
> ...


This is pretty cool. I read through everything. Thanks for sharing!

Our goals are obviously different though. You have the house and space to work on a boat. I don't. I just want to sail my heart away. I don't want a "landlocked" house. No pun intended.

Also, I don't want any big repairs to deal with. Ever. I want to sell and move on before it needs heavy repairs.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

PsySailor said:


> They say because sea trial is only typical for a brokered boat and since they are the original dealer of the boat and they are planning to deliver the boat to me in working condition with all systems good to go, this condition isn't necessary.


Bullocks.

Even if the boat is brand new you have a sea trial.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Are you a sociable guy? Maybe you could take a trip to Marina Quay West and talk to some of the live aboards there? There are about 20 or 30 I think. Might even be a Catalina.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Here are last years maintenance records for the 2005 Hunter 33 I sail. I don't pay for any of this stuff, so not sure what it costs. There was also transmission leak that is not noted here, along with a few missing fenders.

Maybe an owner here can break out the costs.

Fuel cap missing. Now no spare.
Roller furling blocks pulled out - head furler.
Auto tack not working properly.
Bend rod that rotates impellor. Replaced. 110920. Bent impellor shaft causing...
Replace house water pump.
Likely needs new faucet. Aft shower water with very little pressure. Related to water p...
Buff fibreglass work. Fibreglass void on s/b side of swim ladder.
Complete Corian repair and caulking at the same time. Corian kit now aboard. Corian repair
s/b main cabin forward lite not working. 
Engine tack taking 90 seconds to accurately read out.
Replace jib lead car block.
Drained some oil off. Oil above hi level mark.
Tightened nut and resealed. P/S grab bar at swim ladder loose.
Fibreglass spider cracks: grey non skid deck area, cockpit and transom.
Fibreglass anchor locker and head.
Wind direction off by 15 degrees.
Set of allen keys.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I would never respond to pressure tactics that your dealer is proposing.. Despite their apparent good rep these kinds of ultimatums are big red flags. Now you're working on a two price structure?? Really??

They must think they have you by the you-know-whats.....

Don't get hung up on any one particular boat.. even if you're absolutely set on a certain model, look, look, look at different ones on offer.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

For starters, the proper thing to do is to register or document your boat in Canada at the time of sale. This should be after the surveyor has gone over the boat--including a sea trial-- and before you make your final commitment. 

If it works like in the US, you would pay sales tax to your local jurisdiction (Ontario?) 

Even if you have the boat removed from NY waters under NY rules (hire a skipper to take it across Long Island Sound to CT), you will likely be required to show proof that the boat was removed from NY within a certain amount of time.

A number of years ago I purchased a boat in FL and removed it to CT. I certified by mail, providing a gas dock receipt, that it was outside FL ( i.e., NC) within their time limit. 

Would the broker move the sailboat to CT for you? 

BTW, are you planning to go via Erie Canal? You might check on the status of the canal and verify that you have enough water for your draft. You'd need to stow your mast on deck. A much longer route is via Lake Champlain and the Richelieu Canal, but there is a nominal 6' depth there (although the canal authorities might raise it a foot on 24 hr notice, so I've been told). If you are thinking about going outside Maine, you are in for a wet, cold time of it in the Spring. It's also a very long trip, but could be the trip of a lifetime if you have qualified crew (you being a newbie) and the time.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

A friend commissioned a semi-custom 45' boat from a yard with an excellent name. When he went to pick it up, two of the cockpit winches had been mounted backwards, i.e. with the self-tailer on the "input" side. Someone neatly mounted all four winches, port and starboard alike, in the exact same orientation.

So no sea trial? Screw that, even builders make mistakes and lord knows what a dealer will screw up in a rushed installation.

After everything on the 45 was fixed, we took it for a short-handed two man sail. First time I tacked the boat my friend says "What did you do to the instruments?!" Fancy new top-name everything racing system, every time we tacked the whole system went on or off. Port tack, great. Starboard tack, all blank displays and repeaters. Ooops, yeah, they missed a switch that switched over the knotmeter and some other parts when tacking.

No sea trial? Never would see that either.

A sea trial should NOT be a stopper for any seller who has any confidence in what they are selling.

A dealer can also take your money and then go bankrupt--that's happened. And guess what? The _builder _may still own title to the boat, leaving you with no recourse and no boat. If the dealer/seller doesn't have any great interest in making you happy, someone else will.


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

DRFerron said:


> Bullocks.
> 
> Even if the boat is brand new you have a sea trial.


I'll second that.
Something smells fishy here.

Dick


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## MobiusALilBitTwisted (Jun 25, 2007)

This has been PAINFUL and all I did was read, Looks like the OP will get the boat he thinks he wants come HellorHighWater, getting the popcorn bowl ready, this might be a Nightmare not a Dream.


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

Good luck Psy. I think it's gonna work out for you and it's gonna be a good boat. You're not gonna listen to what folks are telling you:

Sea Trial.
Pressure tactics are bad.
Other stuff

Seems you're emotionally tied to this boat....and that happens....it can happen with houses, cars, you name it....you ask and ask for opinions but reject anything that goes against you getting this boat.

But so what! It's just a boat. Any reasonably intelligent person, and you certainly seem like one, can go look at a boat and tell if it's a piece of floating crap or a pretty nice boat. It's the little and hidden things you hire the surveyor for. You've already made your decision on this boat. Go get it and start enjoying it. Have it surveyed and make them fix whatever is found before delivery.

I bet you're getting a nice boat.


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## Glide2277 (Dec 24, 2011)

1) there is no vice like advice.
2) i nearly purchased a boat in Eastport, Maine, which is just across the border from Canada, she was an old wooden boat, and the best wooden boat guy up there was a Canadian...he said he worked in US all the time and there were no issues...but that is a small community up there. He had dropped out of the accreditization society because he said the dues were too high---but everyone up there, including other surveyors gave him great reviews...
3) There are incredible deals available on sailboats in the 36-54 foot range right now...really beyond belief. I have a friend who just bought a 46 foot steel sloop....she had just come out of a major refit--asking price was $42,000 (which was a great deal ... and he got her for less than ten....so i really would look hard---look at lots and lots of boats. If you had the time the best advice i ever got was to look for at least a year. but if you gotta have one, why not buy one that is not all that great for a start...and then you can sell her without too much risk of downside if you decide you don't like here...If you buy a same sized boat for can you imagine if you need to get out from this 100k boat and you only get 42k back for it--nightmare...

ON TAX FRONT:
1) you do not have to pay taxes in the state that the boat is purchased in, Unless you use or store the boat in that states jurisdiction. You may have a sails tax, a use tax, a luxury tax, and/or a personal property. Tax in addition to registration and inspection fees. But I do not believe a sales tax is levied. Y any state for property that will not be used in that state
2) you only have to pay taxes in the country, state, county and or town where you USE the boat.

Some states are tough on this. Florida requirements can include 1) tax bill from other state, showing paid, reciept for rental of storage space or slip, and a photo of the boat in the other state plus possibly a statement sworn before a notary...

BUT definately dont pay any sales tax when you buy that boat...it is really tough to get it back, and when you take her into Canada, they willl make you pay again now matter how many reciepts you have, cuz CANADA is where you are going to use her.

You definately do not have to pay duties to US Customs...never pay duties for stuff you are taking out of the country, unless you intend to sell it in the new jurisdiction...even then there is rarely if ever a tax on items exported from the USA...

you definately have to check in at Canada customs when you arrive...the more papers you have for them the better...
bring bank statements, cancelled checks, survey report, owner's name, address and phone (Canada customs once phoned hte owner of an ATV i was driving over the border in back of my truck)

Great good luck to you in the boat...you are very likely to save money by purchasing in the US. 

I have gotten my best crews from Craigslist--college students...hire someone who is not stronger than you!


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## Glide2277 (Dec 24, 2011)

Also, bring at least 3 copies of the two inside front pages of your passport, and for the passports of everyone on the boat. 
Have a crew list of everyone on the boat.
On the crewlist state every country each crewman has been to in the last 12 months
If crew have not been out of the country for 12 months say so specifically.
If at all possible get the harbor master from the point you sale from in the US to sign a note saying you have permission to leave (it is very hard to get them to do this) sometimes you can get the marina master to say that the boat has been at the marina for X number of days, and is fully paid thru XX day...and even that can be helpful.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Glide2277 said:


> ON TAX FRONT:
> 1) you do not have to pay taxes in the state that the boat is purchased in, EVER.
> 2) you only have to pay taxes in the country, state, county and or town where you USE the boat.


I wouldn't say "ever." Perhaps it is different in Canada.

I purchased my first boat in Pennsylvania so paid PA state sales tax at the time of the purchase. I then moved the boat to Maryland and registered it there where they asked for proof that I had paid the sales tax in PA so I didn't have to then pay Maryland sales tax.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"1) you do not have to pay taxes in the state that the boat is purchased in, EVER."
No one has to pay taxes, ever. You can just let the tax man seize your assets and throw you in jail, and not pay your tax bill. You're entirely right.
However, if you don't like asset loss and jail time (it's so hard to look good in gray, orange, or stripes, isn't it?) and you buy a boat in, say, Florida? You've got 90 days to get it out of state, or you _will _be paying taxes to Florida. Or appearing before the judge and trying to make a deal.
Same same in many states if not all of them. And the "no sales tax" states, usually will come at you for personal property tax or something else instead. Every government finds sources of income. If they don't get you one way, they'll get you another way. Unless, of course, you _are _the king. Although I think the Brits make their monarchs pay taxes too now, don't they?


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

Well, it looks like it's been said already, and from the short history this thread has been
active, doesn't seem logical to offer any advice that would steer you away from purchasing
this boat, but I at least need to know I tried.

Having said all that, any....let me restate that, ANY boat dealer and/or broker that tells
you that a "Sea trial is not normal/necessary" on a boat purchase might as well be saying,
"You see, the problem is, if we let you take the boat on a sea trial, you'll find out it's an
absolute piece of "you-know-what" and we won't be able to either sell it to you or charge
anywhere near what we're asking. So, it's better for both of us if you just hush your mouth,
give us all the cash you have available, we'll secure the absolute maximum loan amount
that's humanly possible, and you take the boat and get the heck out of here, because you're
a Canadian citizen who's taking the boat home and we KNOW that we don't have to honor
any agreements we made because you won't be able to afford the attorney to fight us.
Oh, and just so you know, even if you did have the $10-15k it will take to hire the attorney,
he'll eventually tell you that "there's not much more I can do....since they're not a Canadian
dealer....sorry".

So, you see, there's really no reason to sea trial the boat. Just buy it and be done with it.

Merry Christmas, regardless.


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## Glide2277 (Dec 24, 2011)

Merry Christmas
DONT BUY THE BOAT!!!
And RUN away from anyone who advises against a sea trial.
KEEP LOOKING
There is a better boat out there that costs less money---FOR SURE


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

PsySailor said:


> EDIT: also note that this thread isn't just for me. It's for* a lot of newbies out there looking to make a purchase on an expensive boat.*


Yup, sure seems to be plenty of that going around these days...



PsySailor said:


> Delivery Captain: $0 (found one already, he's free)


Sorry, but there's no such thing... You may have found _someone_ willing to deliver your boat, but it won't be a delivery captain... Nor, unless he's a charitable sort willing to pay all expenses related to the trip himself, will the delivery be "free"...


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Interesting remarks. 

Well, the dealer didn't tell me not to have the purchase agreement conditional on successful sea trial of the boat. He just said it would cost me more money.

It sounds like everyone is very mistrustful of boat dealers, even original boat dealers who've been in business for years, who took the boat back on trade-in. (Meaning, they think the boat will sell... Why would anyone take a boat in on trade if there's something terribly wrong with it?)

So with that in mind, I guess I will tell the dealer "no deal, friend."

(I bet the dealer is a good one, and they are offering me a good boat at a good price. But oh well... I'll let this one go...)


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

*After all it is a zero-sum game*

"mistrustful of boat dealers,"
Some are more reputable than others, just like fortune tellers and spouses. But it is a zero-sum game, meaning you've got to give up money for them to make a profit, and they have taken the old boat in trade because they know money can be made on it. How much money is a totally different story. What's wrong with it...few will ever tell you. Boat sales is usually a game where you are left to find problems and make valuations on your own. Same as with used cars.
So if you decide the price and terms are right, or wrong...that's your call. Everything about sales is up for negotiation. Walk in, show him a check made out for a reasonable deposit and marked "subject to sea trial" and a particular purchase price...and he just might say slow down, he can work with you. 
Or not.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

At the core of my misgivings about your purchase is your unrealistic budget for maintenance and other costs, and I haven't seen any sign that you've now made a more realistic one.

If you can just about afford a $130K boat, you should be buying a $65K boat - to allow yourself room to afford all the other costs. 20% IS a reasonable estimate for first year costs, then 10% in future years. Then there is :

Property taxes - 1% a year
State registration - not much
Insurance - 1% a year?
Bottom cleaning 

Think of a cruiser as a house, car, and sailing boat combined and you'll have some idea of the boat's systems and the required maintenance.

Like a house it has a water heater, toilet, water tanks, LPG system, heating system, and so on.

Like a car it has batteries, an engine, alternator, transmission, controls, electronics, and so on.

Then it has all the sailboat stuff too.

I think you're in danger of ending up living on a boat where you can just afford the payments and can't afford any of the upkeep, in which case your $130K boat is likely to end up worth a lot less in a few years time.


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## redfishnc (Jan 22, 2017)

*sales tax for non-resident*



sailingfool said:


> I don't live in NY but I expect that a dealer in the State is required to collect the state (and County and town) sales taxes, regardless of if the buyer is a non-resident or not. I couldn't find a good reference for this but this link supports my assumption:
> http://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/memos/sales/m82_3_1s.pdf.
> 
> I think you either want to take delivery outside new York (if that avoids the tax) or but locally. The dealer certainly would know the ins and outs. I think a dealer is boxed in by the state for tax collection in a way that a private seller or a broker is not.


I am a US citizen, bought my previous boat in New York. Signed non-resident exemption and paid no sales tax to NY. I sailed the boat to Whitby Marina and notified Customs via cell phone of my pending arrival. They gave me an approval number after asking a few routine questions. I had to place the number in the window of my boat so customs could inspect if they wanted. I lucked out as NC does not require sales tax on used boats (they have their ways of making up for it). Good luck with your venture..


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

PsySailor said:


> Interesting remarks.
> 
> Well, the dealer didn't tell me not to have the purchase agreement conditional on successful sea trial of the boat. He just said it would cost me more money.
> 
> ...


MY BS meter is damn near pegged at this point.
A guy who:
a) has never sailed
b) has never even overnighted on a boat
c) has a girlfriend/fiancee who is also a) and b) qualified,
d) and makes 65K a year, and finally, 
e) is poised to pull the trigger on a deal valued at two years salary, or 3.5years of after tax earnings,
is getting all passive-aggressive about the advice he has received to slow down, do his homework and cover his bases?

Going out on a limb and assuming I am not bringing a gun to a 11th grade troll's knife-fight, I am going forward on the theory that I am simply dealing with a remarkably self-absorbed deluded naif. 
Dude, I am going to be heartlessly blunt, because apparently you don't know what you don't know and don't know enough to graciously heed those who do know. YOU CANNOT AFFORD THIS BOAT.
Even if you do have limitless funds to be able to keep up with any unforeseen maintenance, it will already cost you much much more than you think it will because...
THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT BOAT FOR YOUR PURPOSES.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

PsySailor said:


> Interesting remarks.
> 
> It sounds like everyone is very mistrustful of boat dealers, even original boat dealers who've been in business for years, who took the boat back on trade-in. (Meaning, they think the boat will sell... Why would anyone take a boat in on trade if there's something terribly wrong with it?)


I think most of us are are questioning your particular dealer as that's what the thread and your original post is about. Not necessarily dealers as a profession. Would you buy a car without a test drive, even a brand new car? I never have. Part of the sea trial, besides seeing what's broken, is seeing how _you_ feel behind the helm, how comfortable you feel about the boat and to see whether the boat speaks to you.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

On the plus side, I've never heard of anyone hating the boat they have. 

In all honesty, I think this particular boat is just fine. And I have no doubt the new owner will love sailing it. A seemingly well-maintained, 2004 Catalina with 200 hours, well really, sometimes you just have to jump in, why not now?

With no mortgage and a total income of $100k per year, I don't think this would bankrupt the guy. Not sure why he feels the need to pay it off in 3 years, buts that's his biz.

And unless there are major issues, he can turn it around and sell for $100k at the end of the season if he really has to.

I only want him to enjoy sailing it before turning it into a floating house. Maybe keep the apartment for the summer. That and perhaps up the maintenance budget for the first year to around $5000.

Here's a forum just for live aboards. Living Aboard Magazine

Lot's of folks there agree that modern production boats make great live aboards.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Ninefingers said:


> On the plus side, I've never heard of anyone hating the boat they have.
> 
> In all honesty, I think this particular boat is just fine. And I have no doubt the new owner will love sailing it. A seemingly well-maintained, 2004 Catalina with 200 hours, well really, sometimes you just have to jump in, why not now?
> 
> ...


This particular boat may very well be a fine and dandy boat, but, as you pointed out earlier, even relatively new, fine and dandy boats need something repaired or upgraded, and if you are going to make it your hoime, you're going to find a LOT that needs to be improved. Improvements cost money. Money the OP has not factored into his miantenance budget because, as he has stated, he can't afford to increase his maintenance budget significantly, because he is already topped out buying the boat.

The total income of 100K is only if his fiancee doesn't back out leaving him holding the note on the boat. If they do part ways, (and anybody who thinks boat ownership doesn't change a relationship has never had to make both alimony and boat payments) the math no longer works. It won't bankrupt him, but it won't make him happy either. The bank might be mildly concerned as well.

Good luck selling a boat over 100K quickly. You might want to take a look at the number of months most six figure boats spend on the market. Most spend a year or more on the market. meanwhile, the OP is making the monthly nut on the boat, plus expenses.

A production boat with no heat, no cockpit enclosure and no insulation is a great liveaboard... in Florida. Not so much on Lake Ontario, IMO.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I know a $$$$ load of people with late model 40' boats and you will be by far the lowest income owner I have ever seen and find it hard to believe a bank would allow it to happen


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Hey Psysailor, come on down to Port Credit Yacht Club and I'll show you around and give you some insights into living aboard up here in the Great White North. It ain't rocket science and with a little foresight it is a fairly easy thing to do and a great way to live (for some). One basic piece of advice that I suggest you take very seriously .... buy the smallest boat you can be comfortable with.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

This thread delivers! But not a BOAT! LMAO


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

Yeah, thanks for the advice my friends. Like I said, I'm *not buying the boat* since the dealer won't let me make it conditional on sea trial in spring (unless the price goes up, and I have to pay for de-winterization).

So I'm moving on, looking at other boats. And I'm taking BoatPoker up on his offer.

Thanks again everyone.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

bljones said:


> Going out on a limb and assuming I am not bringing a gun to a 11th grade troll's knife-fight, I am going forward on the theory that I am simply dealing with a remarkably self-absorbed deluded naif.


That's harsh. I apologize if I sound stupid, I'm just new to the whole concept of boats and living aboard.

The minimum payments were quoted at $1300 a month. That's 1/7 of our income after tax per month. We have no other debt.


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## PsySailor (Jul 29, 2011)

bljones said:


> So, with no further ado, here are my 4-season liveaboard picks- others may have different ideas.
> 
> Under $125K, that meets the sub- 20 year financing criteria:
> 
> ...


I have taken a look at these suggestions and I have a few comments:

Firstly, the 20 year restriction that banks put on a boat is for amortization. The banks don't want a borrower having a balance owing on a boat older than 20 years, so for example if the boat was 9 years old, the banks want you to pay off your boat in 11 years before the 20 years is up.

Therefore, the boats valued over $70k and older than 10 years would not be easy to get financing on.

The other concern is the proximity to my location (Waterloo, ON, Canada). I want to be able to inspect my boat before purchasing or ordering a survey on it. And I also don't want to have to pay to trailer it to Lake Ontario.

So for those reasons, none of these listings are for me.

For my first boat, I want something that is on either Eerie or Lake Ontario.

My revised budget (after having carefully considered all the advice given to me) is $80,000, but I'd prefer something in the $50k range.

I'm still on the lookout for a liveaboard boat. I'm currently considering the CS 36 Merlin. Any thoughts on these boats? The only problem I see is I might not be able to swing the cash.

EDIT: I know my last question was in regards to the Hunter Vision 36, but although I'm sure it is a decent CAT boat, it seems to be a bit of an orphan, and I doubt it would be easy to sell. (As a buyer, you should always be looking for resale value.)


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

I am a big fan of CS boats and believe they are the best built of all the mass production boats ...... except for the Merlin. Many problems with the liner cracks


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

PsySailor said:


> I have taken a look at these suggestions and I have a few comments:
> 
> Firstly, the 20 year restriction that banks put on a boat is for amortization. The banks don't want a borrower having a balance owing on a boat older than 20 years, so for example if the boat was 9 years old, the banks want you to pay off your boat in 11 years before the 20 years is up.
> 
> ...


Some of my examples were just that- examples, to give you an idea of what you should be looking for in a liveaboard boat.
Re: budget- Now you're getting more realistic.
You might want to take a look at some of the marine specialist lenders, in addition to the Five Witches. This might be a good reason to go to the boat show. C'mon, I'll even buy you a beer.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

PsySailor said:


> Ahoy Captains,
> 
> I am a noob who is about to potentially get burned in a boat sale over $100,000. I have never sailed a boat bigger than 14ft, yet I'm buying a 40ft sail boat this winter/spring, possibly from an NY American dealer (I'm from Ontario). So any help you can give me is appreciated. I know this is what I want to do with my life, but I'm having some trouble locating the information I need. Here are some questions that I know I have: (I'm sure there's more I don't know that I have.)
> 
> ...


1.* USE A CUSTOMS BROKER *to handle the documentation. Have it completed prior to the boat arriving at the border - no if's and's or but's.

2. *DO NOT LISTEN TO ANYTHING CANADA CUSTOMS TELLS YOU* about import procedure - they are ignorant clerks who will cost you $thousands if you listen to them. In my case, an American trucker knew more about their procedures than they did. If I listened to CCRA it would have cost me approx $5K.

3. *HST only is due on import - IF THE BOAT WAS BUILT IN THE NAFTA ENVELOPE*. Duty applies to boats built elsewhere.

4. If it is registered in the USA - the high level national registration - *have an American marine documentation professional de-register it.*

I did all the above - it only cost me about $300 or so and it was entirely painless.


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