# composting toilet report



## genieskip

In a discussion of heads late in the spring I mentioned that I had installed them in my boat and a few people asked me to write up my experience with them, so here goes.

First a bit of background. I bought my J40, _Genie_, in the fall of 07 and began a lengthy refit. I had read on this site about composting toilets and was intrigued by the concept. I also really hated the amount of scarce boat space that was given over to holding tanks, pumps, valves and hoses . On the other hand I was still more than a bit uncertain about the whole concept of composting aboard a small boat.

My initial compromise in the spring of 08 was to take out the aft head and replace it with a composting fixture. Why a 40' boat has two heads is another thread and one that I won't go into here. Suffice it to say that that's what I had and what I had to deal with. It did afford me the opportunity to change one head and keep the other as a safety.

In the summer of 08 I took _Genie_ on a cruise to Nova Scotia from my home port on the Hudson River. Everyone on the five man crew was quite leery of the composter and preferred to use the forward, old fashioned, head. While we were far offshore on the crossing from Provincetown to NS I decided to try to pump out the fwd holding tank. Something didn't feel right as I did so and I took a look under the bunks in the forepeak.

When I lifted the bunk boards I nearly had a coronary. The poly tank was bulging out in all directions and looked to be one more pump stroke from bursting. I had visions of driving the boat ashore and walking away from it never to return if something did burst. I had to open the deck outlet to relieve the pressure, resulting in a 2 foot gyser of raw sewage. Much scrubbing and cleaning later I swore to rid myself of all parts of that system, which had smelled bad anyway. (When I was dismantling the system later I found a sanitary product in one of the hoses that blocked the overboard discharge, the gift from a bubbleheaded guest of the PO)

During the return trip we were able to use pump outs and the crew remained shy of the composter in the aft head so I didn't really have a chance to evaluate it, though I used it religioulsy and found no problem with it. Last winter I removed the all the vestiges of the plumbing system and put in a composter in the fwd head as well.

This summer we cruised to Maine. I had anywhere from 2 to 4 crew aboard for a period extending to three weeks of sailing. People had to use the composters (or hang their posteriors over the pushpit) since we spent relatively little time at marinas. It was anchor or mooring, so they overcame their reluctance and used them. By the end of the cruise everyone was somewhat embarassed over their original reluctance and had gotten completely over their hang ups about it.

To fully discuss the pros and cons I have to give a brief description of the units and how they work. Essentially, composting toilets are made up of one "bucket" over another with a trap door between the two compartments. When the trap door is closed and liquid is deposited it runs into a removable 1 ½ gallon bottle in the front of the unit. There is a SS crank that can be used to agitate the contents of the lower container that is filled about halfway with peat moss and enzymes. A 1 1/2 " flexible hose with a fan at the deck end keeps a negative pressure in the lower tank to prevent odors from escaping.

If you are making a solid deposit you take a coffe filter (like those from a standard countertop coffe maker) and place it over the trap door. When finished you flip the handle that opens the trap door and your contribution drops to the lower compartment. The bowl is left clean because of the coffe filter. You take a couple of turns on the crank to mix your donation with the peat moss and that's it. If your donation was of the liquid variety I found it helpful to take a half a cupful of water to rinse the bowl and prevent it from developing odors.

Wow, I didn't mean to write the introduction to a book. At any rate here is what my conclusions are after one season of use:

Odors were not a problem with two exceptions. The urine bottle has to be emptied every couple of days or it does begin to get ripe. I have heard that a half a cup of sugar in the bottle keeps the odors down but I haven't tried it and I'm not enough of a chemist to understand if and why this would work. On the other hand it is not that difficult to clean out, either by taking the bottle to a shoreside head or by dumping it overboard (unless you are in a very closed harbor or a lake).

Part of the way into the trip one of the heads did begin to smell a bit, even after the bottle had been cleaned. A quick investigation revealed that the fan of the solar vent I had set up on deck to create the negative pressure to vent the unit had been jammed by a bit of caulking and was not functioning at all. I was pretty impressed that the unit had not smelled bad after a week of regular use even with no ventilation. I scraped off the caulk and had no problems from that point on.

We also discovered that the amount of toilet paper used by the number of people aboard tended to jam the lower compartment a bit. I was using regular TP so I don't know if using a rapidly degrading variety would work better, I'll experiment with that next year. I remembered that years ago, while in Greece, we were warned that the sanitary systems there did not swallow TP very well and near each toiled was a plastic bag into which you were expected to place the used paper. I bought some plastic zipper seal sandwich bags and instructed the crew to put the TP in the bags and thence into the garbage. Everyone caught on and dealt with it with no problem. The head was too small to install a bidet as an alternative.

The units themselves are pretty tall and it felt a bit funny at first to be so high, a bit like a kidergardner using grown up chairs. Most heads are placed on a shelf built into the liner so it is impossible to lower them. I am considering putting footholds so legs don't dangle in the air when sitting for shorter people. I got used to the altitude pretty fast as did the regular crew. It took some of explaining to guests.

And that's it for the downside. Not a long or impressive list. How about the upside?

Well, first of all, I am confident that I can deal with any head problems. These are extremely simple mechanisims. Nothing is hidden from view or inaccessible or impossible to reach. Everything is comprehensible and fixable. That is a huge plus. I also make sure I always carry a good supply of rubber gloves.

You don't need any assistance from the outside - last year in Nova Scotia where holding tanks were not required we had to search long and hard for a pumpout station. If your unit is overfull and you are offshore you just take the lower "bucket" and dump it overboard, rinse, refill with peat moss and start all over again. Total material from a crew still equals less than one poop from a medium sized whale, just make sure you are well offshore.

By removing all the tanks, pumps, valves and hoses I gained a tremendous amount of room. Both compartments under the two sinks were opened up for additional uses. The removal of the two holding tanks allowed me to install an additional 20 gal. diesel tank and to relocate my batteries.

The boat smells a hell of lot better. The hoses were getting ripe after 18 years of use and I didn't relish the job and/or the expense of replacing them. If you keep the composters clean they don't smell.

On the whole I'm glad I did the switch. There are problems but to me the problems are manageable because the system is simpler and much easier to maintain. If you sail for long periods with more than a couple of people one head may not be enough. My experience is that I can handle larger volumes for short periods or smaller volumes for longer. The manufacturer claims 80 uses during a season, you do the math. You leave the compost to work over the winter and in the spring the compost can be dug into the soil of your flower garden (not the vegetable garden!). I didn't want to discuss this with the Real Boss and so I fertilized some woods we own across the road. The deer didn't seem to mind and the material was indistinguishable from "black dirt". This year I might put it in the flower garden after all. This might be more difficult if you live in an apartment.

So this is what my experience has been after one season. I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but if asked if I would do it again on my next boat (if there is a next boat), I would say yes.


----------



## JohnRPollard

Genieskip,

Thank you very much for taking the time to "compose" that outstanding write-up. That is hands down the most informative piece I've ever read on composting toilets. I'm sure anyone considering one of these units will find this very helpful. 

Interesting pros and cons. I'm someone that has never had any real issues with conventional marine toilets (except holding tank capacity with our family 0f 5 ), so I tend to view composting toilets as a solution in search of a problem. When it comes to bathroom functions, I prefer the "fire-and-forget" approach, whereas the composters seem to require a "man-in-the-loop". Reminds me too much of changing diapers. Been there, don't ever want to go back. 

But I'm sure one burst holding tank could convert me...


----------



## preservedkillick

Genieskip,

I too spent my first season with a composting head (Nature's Head). We had no smell problems, and believe me we were looking for them. Every time we returned to the boat after a hot few days we'd open it up and take a sniff. I was expecting a problem with smell but had none. I vent ours up through a dorade vent, and you can get a stinky whiff if you are right downwind of the vent opening when the head is in use, but that goes away within minutes..after the stir I guess.

One thing I found, is that we filled it up before the season ended. I was hoping to go a season with it. I'm wondering if we added more composting medium (we used coconut husks) along the way it would have helped. I but in a fair amount at the beginning and that's it. I took the storage tank off the toilet last week, and cleaned it out. Much less gross than I would have imagined. It was _almost_ like dumping a big bucket of potting soil. Not much smell at all.

Can I ask, how long you can go between dumping it? Do you add peat moss often as you use it??


----------



## canadianseamonkey

Genie, thanks for the report. I've been waiting for some feedback like this so I can take the plunge.

Which unit did you buy? Was the set up easy? What's the fan to battery set up like?

Thanks,
Ray


----------



## genieskip

preservedkillick said:


> Genieskip,
> 
> I too spent my first season with a composting head (Nature's Head). We had no smell problems, and believe me we were looking for them. Every time we returned to the boat after a hot few days we'd open it up and take a sniff. I was expecting a problem with smell but had none. I vent ours up through a dorade vent, and you can get a stinky whiff if you are right downwind of the vent opening when the head is in use, but that goes away within minutes..after the stir I guess.
> 
> One thing I found, is that we filled it up before the season ended. I was hoping to go a season with it. I'm wondering if we added more composting medium (we used coconut husks) along the way it would have helped. I but in a fair amount at the beginning and that's it. I took the storage tank off the toilet last week, and cleaned it out. Much less gross than I would have imagined. It was _almost_ like dumping a big bucket of potting soil. Not much smell at all.
> 
> Can I ask, how long you can go between dumping it? Do you add peat moss often as you use it??


I use it intensively for the few weeks I go seriously cruising with a crew (2 to 4 people) and very little the rest of the time, when I mostly daysail. In addition I have two units on the boat so I have not had to dump it more often than once a year in the spring - at least in my limited-so-far experience. I found that the coconut husk brick that came with the head didn't fill it enough and bought some peat moss, which I periodically added. That usually freshens the appearance of the mass, though it makes no difference to the odor problem, since I haven't experienced any odor problem. I do think it is important to add enzymes (bought at any hardware store, it's the stuff you put in your septic system).


----------



## genieskip

canadianseamonkey said:


> Genie, thanks for the report. I've been waiting for some feedback like this so I can take the plunge.
> 
> Which unit did you buy? Was the set up easy? What's the fan to battery set up like?
> 
> Thanks,
> Ray


I installed the AirHead, though from the pictures on the web the Nature's Head looks very similar. The hardest (and nastiest) part of the installation was the removal of the existing system. The installation of the head itself involves just a few screws. The only semi challenging part is the cutting of the hole in the deck for the exhaust fan. Rather than using the fan that comes with the unit I chose to buy a Nicro solar fan, preferring to avoid hooking up to my batteries the included fan that would be a constant (even though light) draw. Incidentally, when I bought my second head I spoke to the people at AirHead and they removed the fan from the package and lowered the price accordingly.

You have to make or somehow provide a hookup from the flex hose to the fan. I made one from a block of teak for the first one and bought a skimmer fitting from a pool supply place for the second. The bought fitting was much cheaper and easier to use than the fabricated teak. Over the next couple of days I'll try to get pictures of the fittings to post.


----------



## knothead

Would it be possible to run a poll asking how members feel about composting heads?
I get the impression that a whole lot of people are grossed out about the idea and it might be informative to get a real picture of people's attitudes. 
I am of the opinion that composting heads could be very important in the future even in land based applications (think of how much fresh water could be saved) and if the subject received more attention perhaps some of the reluctance about them might fade. More importantly, the price might become more reasonable. I can't figure out why they are so much more expensive than conventional toilets. Maybe when the Chinese develop a knock-off the price will come down to earth. 
So, how about it? Can we do a poll?


----------



## JohnRPollard

knothead said:


> Would it be possible to run a poll asking how members feel about composting heads?
> I get the impression that a whole lot of people are grossed out about the idea and it might be informative to get a real picture of people's attitudes.
> I am of the opinion that composting heads could be very important in the future even in land based applications (think of how much fresh water could be saved) and if the subject received more attention perhaps some of the reluctance about them might fade. More importantly, the price might become more reasonable. I can't figure out why they are so much more expensive than conventional toilets. Maybe when the Chinese develop a knock-off the price will come down to earth.
> So, how about it? Can we do a poll?


Sounds fine.

But before we set up the poll, let's make sure we're asking the right question(s). If you or anyone else wants to banter around on this thread a little bit, to come up with the proper poll questions, that would be great and then we could set-it up (it's high time I learned ).

P.S. I think you already know my answer.


----------



## Faster

Several of our Marine Parks have recently installed composting "outhouses"... different application without the space restrictions of a boat, but still miles ahead of the old 'smelly' pit toilets....


----------



## knothead

JohnRPollard said:


> Sounds fine.
> 
> But before we set up the poll, let's make sure we're asking the right question(s). If you or anyone else wants to banter around on this thread a little bit, to come up with the proper poll questions, that would be great and then we could set-it up (it's high time I learned ).
> 
> P.S. I think you already know my answer.


Thanks John. Yeah, I think I have an idea about your answer but I think you may be open-minded enough to be swayed.

I was thinking something like;
1. Without considering the cost of the system, are you opposed to the idea based on the yuck factor?

2. Would you consider the system if the cost was more reasonable?

3. Do you feel that composting heads are a good answer to the environmental concerns that conventional heads present?

I'm sure that someone smarter than me could come up with better poll questions.


----------



## arf145

This just totally cracks me up. I don't understand where there even _is _a yuck factor with composters--at least relative to marine heads in general. What yucks me out is trying to pump solid waste down a long, relatively narrow pipe into an onboard, sloshing, cesspool, all the while praying that it never clogs going in or out! It must be the rough similarity to home plumbing that folks find comforting in standard flush heads.

I'll take an early shot at Knotheads questions:

1. Not at all opposed.
2. Yes--$300 or $400 would do it.
3. Absolutely

I looked closely at the Airhead two years ago and only had two problems: 1) pretty blasted expensive for what is essentially a plastic toilet with tank. Not a show stopper but youch 2) On our boat, the height would put the user's head smack into an overhang from the cockpit. That was killer.

I'm putting in a new holding tank for my sloshing cesspool this winter. 

Tom


----------



## knothead

arf145 said:


> This just totally cracks me up. I don't understand where there even _is _a yuck factor with composters--at least relative to marine heads in general. What yucks me out is trying to pump solid waste down a long, relatively narrow pipe into an onboard, sloshing, cesspool, all the while praying that it never clogs going in or out!


Yeah, and then you get to carry it around in it's sloshing state until you get the opportunity to suck it out through another long hose. Yuck! I'd rather deal with some compost.


----------



## arf145

knothead said:


> Yeah, and then you get to carry it around in it's sloshing state until you get the opportunity to suck it out through another long hose. Yuck! I'd rather deal with some compost.


True that, Knot.


----------



## Ajax_MD

I'm pretty interested in this. What I don't understand is, are you guys saying that 4 people won't overwhelm this system over a weekend?

How quickly does the solid material break down? Would these units fit on a smaller, older boat that was equipped with a pump out head?

For instance, my Coronado 25 had a head that pumped directly to sea. No holding tank was installed. That's because in 1969, you could legally dump anything into the water.

Well, the head was removed, the thru-hulls plugged and 'glassed over and an RV cassette toilet is now sitting on the liner shelf.

Genie mentioned that the composting head is taller, so I'm wondering if it'll fit.


----------



## arf145

The specs for the Airhead brand can be found here: Looks like around 19" in height.

The reason 4 people wouldn't overwhelm it is that it's only storing the solids, and I suspect that even before the solids break down biologically, they shrink as they dry out.

On our boat I might have been able to fit one vertically if I was willing to cut into the fiberglass platform built for a normal head.


----------



## josrulz

We're considering an Airhead for our boat, though we have yet to bite the bullet. Our current head/holding tank system needs some hoses replaced, there are long hose runs by design (which I don't like), we need to rebuild the toilet, and we _might_ end up needing/wanting to replace the 26-year-old tank. Even without needing to replace the tank, there's enough there for us to look at whether we want to continue with this system.

Based on the type of sailing we do, an Airhead would not be out of the question. We're aware of the pluses and minuses, at least those discussed on this board, other boards, and on various web sites. For my wife and I, we like the environmentally friendly factor and the utter simplicity of the system.

At this point, I have no idea if we'll end up going with an Airhead. We may indeed just replace our hoses and move on. However, we're definitely considering a composting toilet.

Just some thoughts on the matter...
-J


----------



## newpbs

*Interesting*

I like the idea of this head. I'd appreciate more input from experienced users.

I have two concerns with the system as I currently understand it.

#1 Cost, the unit is pricey.

#2 Lack of capacity for liquid waste.

Item #2 could be addressed if my existing holding tank could be used. Any information on using an existing holding tank for liquid waste only?

Paul


----------



## genieskip

newpbs said:


> I like the idea of this head. I'd appreciate more input from experienced users.
> 
> I have two concerns with the system as I currently understand it.
> 
> #1 Cost, the unit is pricey.
> 
> #2 Lack of capacity for liquid waste.
> 
> Item #2 could be addressed if my existing holding tank could be used. Any information on using an existing holding tank for liquid waste only?
> 
> Paul


As far a item #1 is concerned, that's undeniable. Perhaps as usage increases price will come down but there is no denying that, at roughly a thousand buck, it isn't cheap.

As far as item 2 is concerned, unless you sail on an inland lake or always stay very close to shore and never stay at a marina, it really isn't too much of a problem. Perhaps my piloting is a mite off when I decide that I'm three miles offshore but, while I would never think of discharging solid waste, I have fewer scruples about losing a half gallon of salty sterile liquid overboard if I'm 2 1/2 miles off the coast. Whales pee out there too. Also the units come with a 1 1/2 gallon bottle that can usually hold a day's liquid for a normal crew. If you stay at a marina you can take the bottle to the head. All marinas rightly object to having partapotties and their chemical cargo dumped into their septic system but a gallon of yellow liquid has never bothered any marina I've ever stayed at. In case you need more capacity you can buy a second bottle. Three gallons should hold pretty large crew for a day of very inshore sailing.


----------



## Superpickle

Awsom write up,, Thanks, you have SOLD me on these Heads.. Im sure it will be Very nice to have the Extra space too.. 

Paul.....


----------



## carl762

I'm sure sold. Great write-up. 

I hate using my two porta-potties, but this will have to be an expense I incur AFTER I acquire a chartplotter combo unit.


----------



## LandLocked66c

I'm sold! Seems that you could make a crude one as well, but that may be the plumber in me...


----------



## RonRelyea

*Composting - required temperature??*

I've read that below 70 degrees, the composting bacteria get "sluggish".

Does anyone know what the effects are if the temp drops below 60 overnight or for days on end when I'm not on the boat?

I'd really like to get a composter but am worried about the temp aspect during spring and fall here in the northeast.


----------



## bljones

The reason 4 people wouldn't overwhelm it is that it's only storing the solids, and I suspect that even before the solids break down biologically, they shrink as they dry out.

[/QUOTE]

Okay, this post wins the award for euphemism content!

So, not only does sh*t happen, but it shrinks after it happens. So, if I don't give a crap about anything someone posts today, does that mean that I will care less tomorrow, or the offending post gets shorter?


----------



## bljones

LandLocked66c said:


> I'm sold! Seems that you could make a crude one as well, but that may be the plumber in me...


It's already been done. It's called a bucket. But I bet if you label it a "green solution to waste disposal," you could charge $15 for a $5 bucket.


----------



## tomwatt

RonRelyea said:


> I've read that below 70 degrees, the composting bacteria get "sluggish".
> 
> Does anyone know what the effects are if the temp drops below 60 overnight or for days on end when I'm not on the boat?
> 
> I'd really like to get a composter but am worried about the temp aspect during spring and fall here in the northeast.


Based on some experience with wilderness pit toilets, as long as there is regular use, the bacteria seem to kick off pretty well. If it sits for a while, things get stale. We also used to drop a packet of yeast and a teaspoon of sugar into the pits to get things going.

I'm pretty sold on the idea, as I need to tackle some sort of change to the current 'traditional' marine toilet I've got. I saw someplace that there is also a urinal type 'add on' available for not much... was pondering a set up that pulls that out for offshore use piped to the through-hull. Would cut back on the liquid volume as well as the requirement for sitting.


----------



## karlhead

I have a large Sun-Mar composting toilet in my home. I live in a rural area with very shallow soil and solid rock underneath that does not allow for a drain field as is necessary with a normal septic system. The unit works amazingly well. I use the same product in the composter as one would in a septic tank. It is a liquid that is named MICROZYME II and is made by Mid- American Research Chemical Corp. I use about 2 oz. of this stuff per month. Also I pour 1oz. of basic molasses in about once a week. For 2 people I remove and empty the compost probably 2 times a year. Sun-Mar also makes a marine toilet that is angled so that it rests against the hull. The only thing is that are pretty pricey.


----------



## LandLocked66c

bljones said:


> It's already been done. It's called a bucket. But I bet if you label it a "green solution to waste disposal," you could charge $15 for a $5 bucket.


I'm putting together my business plan! :laugher


----------



## knothead

RonRelyea said:


> I've read that below 70 degrees, the composting bacteria get "sluggish".
> 
> Does anyone know what the effects are if the temp drops below 60 overnight or for days on end when I'm not on the boat?
> 
> I'd really like to get a composter but am worried about the temp aspect during spring and fall here in the northeast.


From what I've been told, and my limited experience, I don't think that the material will be full composted until it sits for a very long time no matter what the temp. If the system is used regularly I would imagine that it would have to be emptied well before it's composted. I don't necessarily think that this is a drawback as long as one has a compost pile or somewhere the stuff can be dumped where it can finish the process.


----------



## thinplaces

This is an interesting thread.

I think that the issue of price is not being looked at in a fair light.

A composting toilet is a complete system.

A marine head is one element in the system.

To fairly compare you would have to account for the installation labor of each unit. The sum of all the parts; through-hull fittings, hose clamps, vents, hoses, etc.

You should also look at the time spent maintaining fixing each unit. I suspect that with a traditional head a lot of things are ignored until they finally break. At no time then is the entire system in perfect working order, each single element is at a different point in it's life span, spreading out the hassle and maintenance.

IMHO the composting head is on par with a traditional marine head system.

Also; the some of the sun-mar units can be factory set-up to drain excess liquids. Their website shows it draining to a gray water dry-well. A sailor could have it drain to a tank (in the space beneath the unit?)


----------



## Architeuthis

Another question is resale value. I do not think there is any doubt that these lower the resale chances or value of the boat, by how much is not clear.


----------



## knothead

Architeuthis said:


> Another question is resale value. I do not think there is any doubt that these lower the resale chances or value of the boat, by how much is not clear.


I'm not sure you are right about that at all. It would depend on who you sold the boat to. The heads are crazy expensive compared to a traditional one and as evidenced by this thread, there are some people forward thinking enough to consider the idea. 
It certainly would not present much of a problem to replace a composting head with a normal one and then the thing could be sold for more than the replacement cost.

If we ever get a poll going, that could be one of the questions. 
"Would having a composting head installed be a turnoff when considering a boat for purchase?"


----------



## merc2dogs

I can easily see where they could be a turn off to potential buyers, having to haul the waste out versus pumping it out would tend to make people think twice.
(having grown up on a farm, while I don't -like- it, it needs to be done, so....)

I feel someone could make a suitable 'clone' at home with ease and avoid a lot of the fit issues, and depending on what materials they use, much of the expense could be sidestepped.
Though that itself could limit resale value, many people are 'afraid' of homebuilt systems simply because there is such a wide range of skill levels.

I like the idea because it is such a simple worry free system, and if it were designed with an easily removable 'bin' the range could easily be doubled (or more) simply by swapping bins. A 5 gallon bucket, brand new at home depot complete with lid is about $5, or available nearly anywhere for free, cheap enough to be disposable if you want.

Ken


----------



## CosmosMariner

We recently replaced our Thetford porta-potti with an Airhead composting toilet on our 25' Watkins. Never had a Marine toilet since we ordered the boat in 1987. Everything 'Genie' says is true. Having the Airhead lets us spend an indefinite amount of time in environmentally sensitive areas. Adding the coconut fiber or peat moss keeps the mix in the lower tank moist but not wet so non stinky aerobic bacteria can decompose the solids in stead of the stinky anaerobic bacteria that like wet environments like holding tanks. We happen to use 'Earth Enzymes' ordered on line. Just a little goes a long way, too much and there is an odor but is a 'sweet' sugary smell like rotting fruit. We keep a spray bottle of 20% white vinegar and water hooked onto the hold down of the toilet to spray the bowl half a dozen squirts after each use. Keeps the urine from smelling bad. We don't use the 'coffee filters' just open the dump lever before using. We buy the cheapest store brand of single ply toilet paper and use 'twice as much' but because it is already half the thickness it decomposes quickly like in days. Cost compared to the advantages already posted is insignificant factor. We have been composting for our gardens for over 30 years this is just the next logical step for everyone.


----------



## bellefonte

This is such a no-brainer to me. Why would we build up a "load" of septic waste in a tank in our boats if we dont have to. Clearly the aversion to compostin only comes from those who have never done it, so a lot of misperception going on there. 
Having the extra space and never having to pump out toxic waste again both seem like all the reason we would need to make the leap. 
Personally, if someone had already installed a composting system and saved me the trouble of doing it, i would favor buying that boat over one with a stink tank. 
just my humble opinion.


----------



## bellefonte

Heres a good read:
S/V Deep Playa - Pearson 424 : We're looking for the trash fence


----------



## Cal28

genieskip said:


> In a discussion of heads late in the spring I mentioned that I had installed them in my boat and a few people asked me to write up my experience with them, so here goes.


genieskip

thanks for the report .. this is something that is definitely going to be added as a complete system rather soon ..

I will post details


----------



## emagin

thinplaces said:


> This is an interesting thread.
> I think that the issue of price is not being looked at in a fair light.
> A composting toilet is a complete system.
> A marine head is one element in the system.
> 
> To fairly compare you would have to account for the installation labor of each unit. The sum of all the parts; through-hull fittings, hose clamps, vents, hoses, etc.


I think you miss the point of the guffaws related to price.
_Because_ it is a complete system, when you look at all the parts you actually get, and the complexity of those parts, it's sort of amazing you are paying 1K for some plastic, hoses, screws, etc.
The pricing of things should not be based on comparing a simple thing to a complex thing (that is the delta these guys are taking advantage of to charge a lot, but this is not how economics works for very long).

At the end of the day you have to assess what the thing itself is worth.
And for right now, these toilets are expensive for what they are - very intelligent, very simple systems.
I'm sure the price will come down as more people clue in to how effective they are.


----------



## arf145

I agree with emagin. It is a really nice plastic bucket with a toilet seat on it. If it fit my boat, I'd have gone for it at _maybe _$500. And even if you do compare it to a complete system, it would compare to something like a Jabsco self-pump toilet, given that it's not automatic and does involve user intervention. I can get a Jabsco head for ~$150, 12-feet of Odorsafe waste hose for ~$100, a Ronco 12-gallon tank for ~ $160 and have my system for under $500.

So they'd have me if it cost less (and I could fit it). But it could be that Airhead and the others assume theirs will always be a niche market and it's not worth trying to compete on price.


----------



## josrulz

I'm by no means an expert here and we don't have a composting toilet, though we are considering one for the future. I agree the price is a bit high, and that has indeed kept us from biting the bullet. I do want to point out that I _think_ the Airhead is made by a very small company. So the price might just be relative to what they can sell, and what they need to keep making them. It's not an automated assembly line running with robotics. Of course, I also agree that if more people bought them, eventually the price may go down. Doesn't help us right now though!
-J


----------



## tommays

Well

Q: Can the fan be turned off for periods when -- for instance -- the boat will be on a mooring?

A: We do not recommend the unit remain installed with the fan disconnected. Moisture and a musty smell will be noticed inside the cabin when the fan is not running for any long period of time. We recommend the use of a small five to ten watt solar panel to offset the drain on the batteries.

Q: What happens to the odors in the solid tank?

A: Once solid matter enters the main tank the foul-smelling anaerobic bacteria dies in a few days in the presence of air making way for non odorous aerobic bacteria. This process works best when urine is not present, (as inside the Air Head Dry Toilet), due to a carbon/nitrogen ratio that maximizes aerobic bacterial action.

And you do still have to collect the urine which which seems to involve placing a piece of paper in the unit before every use which must be fun for the female crew










And there is the 2" HOLE in the deck


----------



## merc2dogs

If all you need is air movement to keep it from smelling, depending on the existing vent for the toilet, you could possibly install a small 'chimney' when you have to leave for a while.

Agree, the price is extremely high for what you get. I think it is mostly niche appeal, and small production numbers. 
Also, there is nothing at all that would keep you from building your own, no fancy tech required, just a seat, bucket, and jug. 

Ken.


----------



## thinplaces

The lugable Loo, from Amazon.

If you add these you can bolt the bucket down so it won't tip over at sea!

I think I would still try to vent it though!


----------



## josrulz

Well, I think it's important to note that a composting toilet isn't really simply a bucket. It does require peat (or similar), constant air flow (hence the hose to exterior vent with fan), and a chamber that can churn up the contents to keep the composting going. And in the case of the Airhead and Nature's Head, separation of liquids from solids.

It's absolutely correct to say that it's very simple. But it is definitely more than a bucket, and it looks a lot better too.

We very well may get one, even at those prices. We have a compost pile at home, so that's no trouble. It's more environmentally friendly--no carbon footprint to transport waste from the pump-out station to the treatment center, no energy used to treat, etc. It saves a ton of space and weight aboard, and we don't have to sleep on top of a giant tank of waste with who knows how many feet of hose going back and forth--any of which could clog or rupture. Something like the Airhead would be simple, easy to fix, and low maintenance. Starts to sound pretty good.

Of course, this is all just hypothesizing, because we don't have one yet, so I can't say for sure if it would live up to its promise.
-J


----------



## arf145

J, I really do think they live up to their promise, from the OP's report and others. Overall, I'm a big fan, even if I do think they're a little spendy. But you get the holding tank space back for other use, no specter of a jammed/blocked/busted toilet (that one's big to me), no being tied to pumpouts. And you trade having to dump urine and collect the compost once in while.


----------



## josrulz

arf145 said:


> J, I really do think they live up to their promise, from the OP's report and others. Overall, I'm a big fan, even if I do think they're a little spendy. But you get the holding tank space back for other use, no specter of a jammed/blocked/busted toilet (that one's big to me), no being tied to pumpouts. And you trade having to dump urine and collect the compost once in while.


Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I think some folks may view composting heads as being too "close" to things, if you know what I mean. But I'd prefer that system to some of the mishaps that can occur with the much more complex standard set-up, including during pump-out.

This didn't happen on our current boat, but twice on charters I've had bad experiences. Once I was sprayed in the face due a back-pressure/seal problem, and another time...well...I really don't want to talk about it. Let's just say we refer to the event as the "S*** Geyser Incident".

The simplicity of a composting head sounds nice to me.
-J


----------



## knothead

I don't know how well the composting heads work as far as the actual composting thing goes. I have been composting kitchen scraps and yard stuff in my yard for decades and there are a lot of different ways to do it. There is the Berkley composting method which is a thermophilic process. It is said to produce finished compost in a few weeks. 
http://vric.ucdavis.edu/pdf/compost_rapidcompost.pdf
Thermophilic Composting
It also develops temperatures high enough to kill pathogens possibly contained in humanure. I don't think that the Airhead or Natures head works this way and the decomposition will certainly be slower. I could be wrong about that though.

Then there is the tried and true method of piling it up, covering it up and forgetting about it for years. That's the method I've had the best success with. I have actually found it rather difficult to get a compost pile to heat up. The carbon to nitrogen mix has to be about 30 to 1, it has to have just the right amount of moisture and it has to have a lot of oxygen. Which means a lot of turning. Something I would rather avoid if there is human waste involved. I have a compost tumbler a number of compost piles and a couple of wormeries and have done a lot research about the subject and have concluded that all in all, I would rather just have a designated compost area for that "special material" and just let it sit for the two years that is required to make it safe.

I know from personal experience that a normal person can produce at least a five gallon bucket of solid waste in a relatively short period of time. Somewhat less than a month. Since one of the basic principals of composting is that the time of composting is counted from the time of the latest deposit, I think it's unreasonable to expect a composting head to keep up with one's production. I think it is inevitable that one would have to have a way to store the material until it can be added to a land-based compost system. Especially if one is generous in the use of covering material. 
I have used a variety of material as a cover and I have found that what I like best is finely sifted leaf compost. It's almost like dirt and immediately stops any odor. Though, the same can be said for just about everything that I've tried. Including ashes. I use a lot more covering than I need because I am trying to get the carbon content of the final mixture up and I have no shortage of the stuff.

I have come to the conclusion that until the price of the commercially produced composting heads come down to a reasonable price, I am going to continue to use my bucket and jug. No venting, no fans. Just a simple system that I can build into a little cabinet to make it secure and less obvious. I will put the lid on the plastic bucket between uses even though there are no odors. I will have a hinged lid on the cabinet to cover the whole shooting match and it will look like a simple locker.

The advantages of a composting head are too numerous not to go that way as long as one can get over the silliness. People think that if they flush it down a tube, they don't ever have to think about it again. Well, maybe they won't, but the poor sucker (pun intended) who has to deal with the pump out has to look at it again. 
Now that is plain yucky.


----------



## tommays

Being a small boat J24 family we have always collected the PEE  and generaly have not had to empty the porta-poty more than once mid season and once end of season


----------



## merc2dogs

josrulz said:


> Well, I think it's important to note that a composting toilet isn't really simply a bucket. It does require peat (or similar), constant air flow (hence the hose to exterior vent with fan), and a chamber that can churn up the contents to keep the composting going. And in the case of the Airhead and Nature's Head, separation of liquids from solids.
> 
> It's absolutely correct to say that it's very simple. But it is definitely more than a bucket, and it looks a lot better too.


 Exactly, no high tech, simple layout, no complicated mechanisms.

I'm just trying to figure out why buckets can't be vented, or have peat (or similar) placed in them, or even be stirred for that matter.

Can think of a few very easy 'no touch' methods to stir the contents.
Maybe I should rephrase that to read: "no touch during use" Ranging from simple to complicated, but all easily built in the average garage.

Enclosures are easily built to match your visual preference.

Ken


----------



## genieskip

No question price is something that needs to be taken into consideration but you have to compare apples to apples (is that before or after "processing")?

I don't think there is that much difference in total cost if the two systems are compared as TOTAL systems. If you are redoing the entire system on an older boat or planning a new from scratch - including bowl, holding tank, Y valve, hoses pump, etc the costs would be comparable. If you are just doing a partial fix then a grand for the whole thing is a lot, though to me it was worth it not have to deal with gyser of sewage ever again on my boat. 

I think the statements made on the resale value are quite true. A composting system would turn some people off completely but some others would be attracted by the simplicity. Hard to tell if it's a wash till I try to sell the boat. It also depends on how popular the systems become. If they remain a rarity it would probably be detrimental. If they gain in popularity then it could become a plus.


----------



## josrulz

genieskip said:


> No question price is something that needs to be taken into consideration but you have to compare apples to apples (is that before or after "processing")?
> 
> I don't think there is that much difference in total cost if the two systems are compared as TOTAL systems. If you are redoing the entire system on an older boat or planning a new from scratch - including bowl, holding tank, Y valve, hoses pump, etc the costs would be comparable. If you are just doing a partial fix then a grand for the whole thing is a lot, though to me it was worth it not have to deal with gyser of sewage ever again on my boat.
> 
> I think the statements made on the resale value are quite true. A composting system would turn some people off completely but some others would be attracted by the simplicity. Hard to tell if it's a wash till I try to sell the boat. It also depends on how popular the systems become. If they remain a rarity it would probably be detrimental. If they gain in popularity then it could become a plus.


I agree on all counts. One thing on resale that I've been thinking, is to make sure that nothing we do it really "permanent" in the conversion. In other words, if someone really wanted to go back to the standard set-up, the holding tank is still available, buy a toilet, run the hose, and call it a day.

If we do this, we're going to keep the salt water intake through-hull for the head and use it for an anchor wash-down pump at the bow (it's actually in the perfect location already). It will still be available to use for head salt water intake, if needed later. Of course, that will cost us $ to convert back over, but we're thinking it's worth the risk because we plan to keep the boat for a number of years.
-J


----------



## tomwatt

I have been pondering the 'do it yourself' mode for this topic for a few days now, and think that while it's true that I could probably source various parts and pieces to build it myself, one thing that nags at me is the potential results of a failure. At least with the production kit I get the benefit of some research and testing. A big improvement over wearing the results of a mistake, or even worse, having my new honey come up topsides to greet me with a scowl and a coating of unhappiness.


----------



## knothead

tomwatt said:


> I have been pondering the 'do it yourself' mode for this topic for a few days now, and think that while it's true that I could probably source various parts and pieces to build it myself, one thing that nags at me is the potential results of a failure. At least with the production kit I get the benefit of some research and testing. A big improvement over wearing the results of a mistake, or even worse, having my new honey come up topsides to greet me with a scowl and a coating of unhappiness.


It's hard to imagine how a plain old bucket and a jug could fail.  It's the ultimate in simplicity.


----------



## tomwatt

knothead said:


> It's hard to imagine how a plain old bucket and a jug could fail.  It's the ultimate in simplicity.


I was thinking in terms of the compost churning apparatus... since a hardware store paint mixer would accomplish that for much less than the cost of the complete kit. And I'm convinced that my new honey would not go for the bucket and jug approach at all. Anything would have to be clean, simple and well, you get the idea. 
And anything that involved lugging a bucket around is going to belong to my side of the boat, no matter what else happens.


----------



## LandLocked66c

tomwatt said:


> I was thinking in terms of the compost churning apparatus... since a hardware store paint mixer would accomplish that for much less than the cost of the complete kit. And I'm convinced that my new honey would not go for the bucket and jug approach at all. Anything would have to be clean, simple and well, you get the idea.
> And anything that involved lugging a bucket around is going to belong to my side of the boat, no matter what else happens.


You don't have to churn it that much. If you're using a mixer with any sort of industrial strength - you are doing it wrong... All that is needed is to introduce the new with the old. Not puree it.


----------



## tomwatt

LandLocked66c said:


> You don't have to churn it that much. If you're using a mixer with any sort of industrial strength - you are doing it wrong... All that is needed is to introduce the new with the old. Not puree it.


Well, that explains why you guys have "rep power" and I don't!


(my skill list now includes: 'unable to correctly churn poop')


----------



## knothead

tomwatt said:


> Well, that explains why you guys have "rep power" and I don't!
> 
> 
> (my skill list now includes: 'unable to correctly churn poop')


 Life is just a learning process Grasshopper. 

Here's a passage from Joseph Jenkins' book for those interested.

DEEP ****
Shortly after I published the first edition of this book, I
was invited to speak to a group of nuns at a convent. I
had only printed 600 copies of the book and had
assumed they would sit in my garage for the rest of my life because
no one would be interested in the topic of composting "humanure."
Not long after, the Associated Press put the word out that I had written
a book about crap. Then I got a phone call.
"Mr. Jenkins, we recently bought a copy of your book,
Humanure, and we would like to have you speak at our convent."
"What do you want me to talk about?"
"About the topic of your book."
"Composting?"
"Yes, but specifically, humanure composting." At this point I
was at a loss for words. I couldn't understand exactly why a group of
nuns would be interested in composting human crap. Somehow, I
couldn't imagine standing in a room full of holy nuns, speaking about
turds. But I kept the stammering to a minimum and accepted the
invitation.
It was Earth Day, 1995. The presentation went well. After I
spoke, the group showed slides of their gardens and compost piles,
then we toured their compost area and poked around in the worm
boxes. A delightful lunch followed, during which I asked them why
they were interested in humanure, of all things.
"We are the Sisters of Humility," they responded. "The words
'humble' and 'humus' come from the same semantic root, which means
'earth.' We also think these words are related to the word 'human.'
Therefore, as part of our vow of humility, we work with the earth. We make
compost, as you've seen. And now we want to learn how to make compost
from our toilet material. We're thinking about buying a commercial composting
toilet, but we want to learn more about the overall concepts first.
That's why we asked you to come here." This was deep ****. Profound.
A light bulb went off in my head. Of course, composting is an
act of humility. The people who care enough about the earth to recycle
their personal by-products do so as an exercise in humility, not
because they're going to get rich and famous for it. That makes them
better people. Some people go to church on Sunday, others make
compost. Still others do both. Others go to church on Sunday, then
throw all their garbage out into the environment. The exercising of
the human spirit can take many forms, and the simple act of cleaning
up after oneself is one of them. _*The careless dumping of waste out
into the world is a self-centered act of arrogance - or ignorance.*_
Humanure composters can stand under the stars at night gazing
at the heavens, and know that, when nature calls, their excretions
will not foul the planet. Instead, those excretions are humbly collected,
fed to microorganisms and returned to the Earth as healing medicine
for the soil.


----------



## genieskip

Fantastic piece Knothead. It does bring up one of the the key elements in this discussion. Just having a big machine suck the **** out of your boat doesn't really get rid of it, it just gets it off your boat.


----------



## tommays

I dont know what happens were you guys live BUT here the poop and water does get treated to a safe state 

If everybody was composting poop in there back yard there would be health issues everytime it rained and the still raw poop reached the ground water 


Which is pretty much what causes most problems right now all the natural poop gets washed into the bay before it degrades to a safe state


----------



## LandLocked66c

tomwatt said:


> Well, that explains why you guys have "rep power" and I don't!
> 
> 
> (my skill list now includes: 'unable to correctly churn poop')


Haha! I'm a total newb! Just stirring up poop myself!:laugher


----------



## RonRelyea

"If everybody was composting poop in there back yard there would be health issues everytime it rained and the still raw poop reached the ground water "

Using Composting Barrels (you'd need two) would solve this problem


----------



## nickmerc

RonRelyea said:


> "If everybody was composting poop in there back yard there would be health issues everytime it rained and the still raw poop reached the ground water "
> 
> Using Composting Barrels (you'd need two) would solve this problem


Then you are depending on everyone doing this correctly. I kind of like having a centralized poop-neutralization plant.

Very rarely do I advocate for something to be centralized, but if my idiot neigbour screws up I don't want to be drinking foul water.
________
LIVE SEX


----------



## LandLocked66c

nickmerc said:


> Very rarely do I advocate for something to be centralized, but if my idiot neigbour screws up I don't want to be drinking foul water.


Drink Beer then!


----------



## knothead

Here's the way I look at it. If someone has the slightest interest in the subject, they would do a little research before before actually switching over from a conventional system. It would probably be easier to teach a child how to create and maintain a safe, non polluting composting system than it would be to teach them their times table. 
The only way that a properly maintained compost pile would leach is in a heavy rain and it's pretty easy to throw a small tarp over it. 
It takes very little time or effort to properly compost one's own or even one's whole family's bodily byproducts. It's not unsanitary. It's not smelly. It doesn't attract flies or vermin and it produces a product that most people spend good money on down at the Home Depot. 
There has been and continues to be mountains of misinformation about the subject. Many well meaning people who have no actual experience but instead have a phobia based on ignorance continue to scare themselves and others into believing that a perfectly natural, healthy and proven process is somehow dangerous. 
Then there are the people who feel it's somehow beneath them to deal with their own feces and are content to live by the credo "out of sight-out of mind". They don't have a problem with other people dealing with their shi#, but God forbid they have to do it themselves. I hope they never have to live through a natural disaster that deprives them of the gallons of drinking water that they so casually pollute everytime they take a leak.

To anyone seriously interested in trying to live a little more in harmony with the earth that sustains us, I would highly recommend that they read Joseph Jenkins "Humanure Handbook". It's a quick, entertaining and extremely informative read. It can be downloaded free or read online. Jenkins has used a composting system for *thirty years* without the slightest problem of any sort. He raised a perfectly healthy family, poisoned no ground water but instead saved thousands and thousands of gallons of clean water and made a lot of compost that fertilized the vegetables that he fed to his little girls.

This concept isn't a new age fad or a whim of some idealistic wackos. It's a matter of life and death. This planet cannot be expected to continue to sustain our growing population unless we start to work with it.

End of sermon.


----------



## arf145

knothead said:


> To anyone seriously interested in trying to live a little more in harmony with the earth that sustains us, I would highly recommend that they read Joseph Jenkins "Humanure Handbook". It's a quick, entertaining and extremely informative read. It can be downloaded free or read online. Jenkins has used a composting system for *thirty years* without the slightest problem of any sort. He raised a perfectly healthy family, poisoned no ground water but instead saved thousands and thousands of gallons of clean water and made a lot of compost that fertilized the vegetables that he fed to his little girls.


I'll check that out, Knot. Thanks for the ref--and the sermon.

Tom


----------



## josrulz

knothead said:


> ...End of sermon.


Enjoyed the post, knothead.


----------



## nickmerc

Knothead,

Out of curiosity, do you have a flush toilet at home or a composter? How about on your boat? How dense is the population where you live? What is your personal experience with such a system. I would like to hear from others who have done something similar to Jenkins and from your previous post is sounds like you have that experience.
________
VAPIR VAPORMATIC DELUXE REVIEW


----------



## knothead

nickmerc said:


> Knothead,
> 
> Out of curiosity, do you have a flush toilet at home or a composter? How about on your boat? How dense is the population where you live? What is your personal experience with such a system. I would like to hear from others who have done something similar to Jenkins and from your previous post is sounds like you have that experience.


I have both at home. The boat is still set up with the holding tank and stinky old salt water head. We haven't lived aboard for years and use the boat mostly for daysails and weekends these days. 
We live in the Tampa Bay area and have neighbors on each side of our rather small 2 bed 1 bath home. 
I've been experimenting with a simple bucket and jug system in my man cave, (aka garage) for the last two months. I am separating the liquids from the solids and composting it all in my yard. 
At first I was rather worried about odors and was sure to put the lid on the five gallon bucket after each use but I soon discovered that it wasn't necessary. The stuff I sprinkled on top of each deposit immediately stopped any odor and even when the bucket sat open all day there was no smell when entering the garage. 
My experience so far is limited but I have been reading everything I can get ahold of on the subject. 
I have been waiting for what is called a "Privy Kit" (Ecovita U-D Toilet Kit with plans) from a company called Ecovita. I will be building a more permanent installation when I get it. 
Eventually I will remove the head, holding tank, y-valves, pump and hoses from the boat and install a simple bucket system in it too.
I am absolutely sold on the concept.


----------



## knothead

A good example of why the world should implement the use of the composting toilet. 
There will be a lot of needless suffering and likely even death because of the lack of sanitation.
All because of ignorance and misinformation. 

Missing Latrines in Haiti | Global Health | Change.org

"....some 7,000 latrines are needed. What could those latrines look like? Jason Turgeon, over at Haiti Rewired, shares a run-down of the different kinds out there that could work, from pit latrines to anaerobic digesters. He concludes that for much of Haiti, composting toilets might be the best solution. They're easy to construct, comparatively odorless, and don't require water -- virtually all you need is a 5-gallon bucket. Over a year's time, following composting, the waste's volume shrinks by as much as 90%, becoming a valuable fertilizer that can be used in agriculture -- a much-needed commodity in a country with ravaged topsoil."


----------



## tommays

This is a serious question NOT a troll

On a mass scale HOW do you get people to NOT pee when they poop as fluids seem to be the only problem i can see ? and rainy season is coming 

What do you do with the pee on a large scale as it gets pretty stinky


----------



## josrulz

tommays said:


> This is a serious question NOT a troll
> 
> On a mass scale HOW do you get people to NOT pee when they poop as fluids seem to be the only problem i can see ? and rainy season is coming
> 
> What do you do with the pee on a large scale as it gets pretty stinky


I can answer the first question, at least I think I know what you're asking. Composting toilets are designed to separate fluids from solids, based on the locations where they each come out, so-to-speak. So no one has to control anything differently. But you do have to sit down even if you're just peeing.

As to the latter, in terms of large scale, I don't know. Just know the part about composting toilets. Not sure if that answers your question or not.


----------



## knothead

tommays said:


> This is a serious question NOT a troll
> 
> On a mass scale HOW do you get people to NOT pee when they poop as fluids seem to be the only problem i can see ? and rainy season is coming
> 
> What do you do with the pee on a large scale as it gets pretty stinky


Tom, I am a proponent of the separating toilets. Joseph Jenkins has used his system, that doesn't separate, for thirty years with no problems. I think it's just a matter of preference. I would rather empty a container of a more solid consistency than of a liquid one. It all ends up in the compost pile. 
I use a quite a bit of cover material in my toilet, more than I need in fact, but probably not nearly as much as one that doesn't separate. I reiterate, there is no odor from the solids. None. The liquid is simply a plastic jug with a large screw on cap. If it's emptied (on the compost pile) often, the odor is not a problem for the brief time the jug is open. It's been claimed that sugar or dishsoap will help with the odor. I found that bleach works very well. But it's a poison and I quit using it. Best is just to empty it everyday.
Keep in mind that my system is just a bucket and a jug. I have on order a Privy Kit ( Ecovita Privy Kit ) from a company called Ecovita. When it arrives I plan to build a more permanent unit that I may someday convince my own wife to use. :laugher


----------



## genieskip

tommays said:


> This is a serious question NOT a troll
> 
> On a mass scale HOW do you get people to NOT pee when they poop as fluids seem to be the only problem i can see ? and rainy season is coming
> 
> What do you do with the pee on a large scale as it gets pretty stinky


As far as the first part of your question I can tell you that the two commonly sold made-for-boats composting toilets automatically separate liquid from solid. The trap door to the lower chamber that holds the solids seals when in the closed position and is angled so that the liquid runs off and into the waiting bottle. When the trap door is opened the dry solid material falls to the waiting peat moss to be mixed. You can use the toilet in the normal male standing position when only needing to urinate without having the liquid leak to the solid material holding chamber though I have found that a splash or two from a water bottle is necessary to clean the bowl and keeps odor down.

The large (1 1/2 gal) pee bottle can be emptied overboard when far enough from shore. If you are close inshore or in an inland area like a lake, you will most probably be pulling into a marina by night and you can flush it down a toilet. If you plan to sail inshore for a few days without being near a toilet you can get extra bottles. When capped the odor is contained, though I have read that some sugar placed in the bottle before use can greatly mitigate smells.


----------



## jwreck

Not to be too gross, but how much of a problem is it for the system when the "solid material" doesn't come out quite so solid? Can the bowl be rinsed down into the chamber without disrupting everything? I guess the better question would be how much liquid could be introduced without adverse effects? Like I said, not trying to be unneccesarily gross, just trying to think about all scenarios.


----------



## knothead

jwreck said:


> Not to be too gross, but how much of a problem is it for the system when the "solid material" doesn't come out quite so solid? Can the bowl be rinsed down into the chamber without disrupting everything? I guess the better question would be how much liquid could be introduced without adverse effects? Like I said, not trying to be unneccesarily gross, just trying to think about all scenarios.


It's not a problem at all. You just might want to use a little more cover material.


----------



## genieskip

jwreck said:


> Not to be too gross, but how much of a problem is it for the system when the "solid material" doesn't come out quite so solid? Can the bowl be rinsed down into the chamber without disrupting everything? I guess the better question would be how much liquid could be introduced without adverse effects? Like I said, not trying to be unneccesarily gross, just trying to think about all scenarios.


The system still separates the liquid from the solid so that's what would happen.The color of the liquid in the liquid bottle would be a little different but that wouldn't matter since the bottle is opaque (there's a clear tube, connected at the top and bottom to let you know how full the bottle is). Not enough liquid would reach the composting chamber to change what's happening in there unless you used it with the trap door separator open, which is not advised.


----------



## Orionsue

*composting head*

Anybody used Airhead or Nature's Head composting toilets? Would love some feedback on the good, the bad, and the ugly. Thinking of changing to one. Thanks in Advance. Happy Sailing )
Sue...S/V Orion


----------



## knothead

Orionsue said:


> Anybody used Airhead or Nature's Head composting toilets? Would love some feedback on the good, the bad, and the ugly. Thinking of changing to one. Thanks in Advance. Happy Sailing )
> Sue...S/V Orion


Sue, 
The original post in this thread is by genieskip. It's a very good report of their experience. 
I'll quote it here, but I'd recommend that you read the whole thread. Lots of other good posts too.



genieskip said:


> *composting toilet report*
> 
> In a discussion of heads late in the spring I mentioned that I had installed them in my boat and a few people asked me to write up my experience with them, so here goes.
> 
> First a bit of background. I bought my J40, _Genie_, in the fall of 07 and began a lengthy refit. I had read on this site about composting toilets and was intrigued by the concept. I also really hated the amount of scarce boat space that was given over to holding tanks, pumps, valves and hoses . On the other hand I was still more than a bit uncertain about the whole concept of composting aboard a small boat.
> 
> My initial compromise in the spring of 08 was to take out the aft head and replace it with a composting fixture. Why a 40' boat has two heads is another thread and one that I won't go into here. Suffice it to say that that's what I had and what I had to deal with. It did afford me the opportunity to change one head and keep the other as a safety.
> 
> In the summer of 08 I took _Genie_ on a cruise to Nova Scotia from my home port on the Hudson River. Everyone on the five man crew was quite leery of the composter and preferred to use the forward, old fashioned, head. While we were far offshore on the crossing from Provincetown to NS I decided to try to pump out the fwd holding tank. Something didn't feel right as I did so and I took a look under the bunks in the forepeak.
> 
> When I lifted the bunk boards I nearly had a coronary. The poly tank was bulging out in all directions and looked to be one more pump stroke from bursting. I had visions of driving the boat ashore and walking away from it never to return if something did burst. I had to open the deck outlet to relieve the pressure, resulting in a 2 foot gyser of raw sewage. Much scrubbing and cleaning later I swore to rid myself of all parts of that system, which had smelled bad anyway. (When I was dismantling the system later I found a sanitary product in one of the hoses that blocked the overboard discharge, the gift from a bubbleheaded guest of the PO)
> 
> During the return trip we were able to use pump outs and the crew remained shy of the composter in the aft head so I didn't really have a chance to evaluate it, though I used it religioulsy and found no problem with it. Last winter I removed the all the vestiges of the plumbing system and put in a composter in the fwd head as well.
> 
> This summer we cruised to Maine. I had anywhere from 2 to 4 crew aboard for a period extending to three weeks of sailing. People had to use the composters (or hang their posteriors over the pushpit) since we spent relatively little time at marinas. It was anchor or mooring, so they overcame their reluctance and used them. By the end of the cruise everyone was somewhat embarassed over their original reluctance and had gotten completely over their hang ups about it.
> 
> To fully discuss the pros and cons I have to give a brief description of the units and how they work. Essentially, composting toilets are made up of one "bucket" over another with a trap door between the two compartments. When the trap door is closed and liquid is deposited it runs into a removable 1 ½ gallon bottle in the front of the unit. There is a SS crank that can be used to agitate the contents of the lower container that is filled about halfway with peat moss and enzymes. A 1 1/2 " flexible hose with a fan at the deck end keeps a negative pressure in the lower tank to prevent odors from escaping.
> 
> If you are making a solid deposit you take a coffe filter (like those from a standard countertop coffe maker) and place it over the trap door. When finished you flip the handle that opens the trap door and your contribution drops to the lower compartment. The bowl is left clean because of the coffe filter. You take a couple of turns on the crank to mix your donation with the peat moss and that's it. If your donation was of the liquid variety I found it helpful to take a half a cupful of water to rinse the bowl and prevent it from developing odors.
> 
> Wow, I didn't mean to write the introduction to a book. At any rate here is what my conclusions are after one season of use:
> 
> Odors were not a problem with two exceptions. The urine bottle has to be emptied every couple of days or it does begin to get ripe. I have heard that a half a cup of sugar in the bottle keeps the odors down but I haven't tried it and I'm not enough of a chemist to understand if and why this would work. On the other hand it is not that difficult to clean out, either by taking the bottle to a shoreside head or by dumping it overboard (unless you are in a very closed harbor or a lake).
> 
> Part of the way into the trip one of the heads did begin to smell a bit, even after the bottle had been cleaned. A quick investigation revealed that the fan of the solar vent I had set up on deck to create the negative pressure to vent the unit had been jammed by a bit of caulking and was not functioning at all. I was pretty impressed that the unit had not smelled bad after a week of regular use even with no ventilation. I scraped off the caulk and had no problems from that point on.
> 
> We also discovered that the amount of toilet paper used by the number of people aboard tended to jam the lower compartment a bit. I was using regular TP so I don't know if using a rapidly degrading variety would work better, I'll experiment with that next year. I remembered that years ago, while in Greece, we were warned that the sanitary systems there did not swallow TP very well and near each toiled was a plastic bag into which you were expected to place the used paper. I bought some plastic zipper seal sandwich bags and instructed the crew to put the TP in the bags and thence into the garbage. Everyone caught on and dealt with it with no problem. The head was too small to install a bidet as an alternative.
> 
> The units themselves are pretty tall and it felt a bit funny at first to be so high, a bit like a kidergardner using grown up chairs. Most heads are placed on a shelf built into the liner so it is impossible to lower them. I am considering putting footholds so legs don't dangle in the air when sitting for shorter people. I got used to the altitude pretty fast as did the regular crew. It took some of explaining to guests.
> 
> And that's it for the downside. Not a long or impressive list. How about the upside?
> 
> Well, first of all, I am confident that I can deal with any head problems. These are extremely simple mechanisims. Nothing is hidden from view or inaccessible or impossible to reach. Everything is comprehensible and fixable. That is a huge plus. I also make sure I always carry a good supply of rubber gloves.
> 
> You don't need any assistance from the outside - last year in Nova Scotia where holding tanks were not required we had to search long and hard for a pumpout station. If your unit is overfull and you are offshore you just take the lower "bucket" and dump it overboard, rinse, refill with peat moss and start all over again. Total material from a crew still equals less than one poop from a medium sized whale, just make sure you are well offshore.
> 
> By removing all the tanks, pumps, valves and hoses I gained a tremendous amount of room. Both compartments under the two sinks were opened up for additional uses. The removal of the two holding tanks allowed me to install an additional 20 gal. diesel tank and to relocate my batteries.
> 
> The boat smells a hell of lot better. The hoses were getting ripe after 18 years of use and I didn't relish the job and/or the expense of replacing them. If you keep the composters clean they don't smell.
> 
> On the whole I'm glad I did the switch. There are problems but to me the problems are manageable because the system is simpler and much easier to maintain. If you sail for long periods with more than a couple of people one head may not be enough. My experience is that I can handle larger volumes for short periods or smaller volumes for longer. The manufacturer claims 80 uses during a season, you do the math. You leave the compost to work over the winter and in the spring the compost can be dug into the soil of your flower garden (not the vegetable garden!). I didn't want to discuss this with the Real Boss and so I fertilized some woods we own across the road. The deer didn't seem to mind and the material was indistinguishable from "black dirt". This year I might put it in the flower garden after all. This might be more difficult if you live in an apartment.
> 
> So this is what my experience has been after one season. I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but if asked if I would do it again on my next boat (if there is a next boat), I would say yes.
> __________________
> genieskip
> Northeast
> J40
> 1991


----------



## knothead

An interesting article about using urine to create hydrogen. Turns out it's much cheaper and more effective than using water.

Toilets That Separate Pee For Urea-Hydrogen Fuel Harvesting Already on Market : CleanTechnica


----------



## wind_magic

Knot, I'm having a little trouble understanding the concept.

It sounds like what you are saying is that this system is essentially "Bucket and chuck it" except, well, "Bucket, mix it with moss, chuck it". Is that right ? I understand the concept of separating the liquid from the solids, but I'm just not completely sure I understand what you do with the solids, I guess that is what I am saying.

I like the idea of it from a practical standpoint. I wouldn't mind a system where I keep the paper, solid, and liquid separate and dispose of them separately, in fact that seems like a great idea to me - paper burns, bonfires happen, and the liquid isn't so hard to deal with, but I want to understand what you do with the solid.


----------



## hellosailor

"paper burns, bonfires happen, "
There is such a head, called an "Incinolet" - I N C I N O L E T - 
Supposedly popular with the Alaskan fishing fleets but I'm not sure I'd like hanging my butt over a fireplace that way. Or, asking why the first time I saw one was on the cable show "World's Dirtiest Jobs" where the host was cleaning and repairing one.
Cedar bucket, anyone?


----------



## wind_magic

hellosailor said:


> "paper burns, bonfires happen, "
> There is such a head, called an "Incinolet" - I N C I N O L E T -
> Supposedly popular with the Alaskan fishing fleets but I'm not sure I'd like hanging my butt over a fireplace that way. Or, asking why the first time I saw one was on the cable show "World's Dirtiest Jobs" where the host was cleaning and repairing one.
> Cedar bucket, anyone?


I was just thinking of the tissue, but that's interesting that they burn everything.


----------



## Orionsue

knothead said:


> Sue,
> The original post in this thread is by genieskip. It's a very good report of their experience.
> I'll quote it here, but I'd recommend that you read the whole thread. Lots of other good posts too.


Thanks a million...will do some reading


----------



## knothead

wind_magic said:


> Knot, I'm having a little trouble understanding the concept.
> 
> It sounds like what you are saying is that this system is essentially "Bucket and chuck it" except, well, "Bucket, mix it with moss, chuck it". Is that right ? I understand the concept of separating the liquid from the solids, but I'm just not completely sure I understand what you do with the solids, I guess that is what I am saying.
> 
> I like the idea of it from a practical standpoint. I wouldn't mind a system where I keep the paper, solid, and liquid separate and dispose of them separately, in fact that seems like a great idea to me - paper burns, bonfires happen, and the liquid isn't so hard to deal with, but I want to understand what you do with the solid.


Windy, It may be a little confusing because we are talking about two kinds of composting heads. The ones like AirHead or Nature's head are actual composting heads. They compost the material right in the toilet. With my system or the one that Joseph Jenkins has used for thirty years, the toilet (five gallon bucket) is simply used to contain the material until it can be transferred to a compost pile. So I guess technically they should be called containment toilets. 
Jenkins doesn't separate liquids. I do, but they are reunited again in the compost pile. The TP composts as well. Actually, everything that was ever alive will compost. Newspaper, paper towels, cardboard boxes, etc. The trick is to get them in small enough pieces. 
If someone is a liveaboard, it might be difficult to find places to dispose of the solids if they aren't composted so that's why most people would rather have the actually composting heads. But I still have my doubts that the contents will be fully composted by the time it needs to be emptied. That's why I like the bucket idea. When it's full you can just snap on the lid and it can be stored indefinitely without the risk of spilling. 
If someone has a landside dwelling as well as a boat, then there's no problem. You just take it home and add it to the pile.

Here's a post I made earlier.

Here's the way I look at it. If someone has the slightest interest in the subject, they would do a little research before before actually switching over from a conventional system. It would probably be easier to teach a child how to create and maintain a safe, non polluting composting system than it would be to teach them their times table.
The only way that a properly maintained compost pile would leach is in a heavy rain and it's pretty easy to throw a small tarp over it.
It takes very little time or effort to properly compost one's own or even one's whole family's bodily byproducts. It's not unsanitary. It's not smelly. It doesn't attract flies or vermin and it produces a product that most people spend good money on down at the Home Depot.
There has been and continues to be mountains of misinformation about the subject. Many well meaning people who have no actual experience but instead have a phobia based on ignorance continue to scare themselves and others into believing that a perfectly natural, healthy and proven process is somehow dangerous.
Then there are the people who feel it's somehow beneath them to deal with their own feces and are content to live by the credo "out of sight-out of mind". They don't have a problem with other people dealing with their shi#, but God forbid they have to do it themselves. I hope they never have to live through a natural disaster that deprives them of the gallons of drinking water that they so casually pollute everytime they take a leak.

To anyone seriously interested in trying to live a little more in harmony with the earth that sustains us, I would highly recommend that they read Joseph Jenkins "Humanure Handbook". It's a quick, entertaining and extremely informative read. It can be downloaded free or read online. Jenkins has used a composting system for *thirty years* without the slightest problem of any sort. He raised a perfectly healthy family, poisoned no ground water but instead saved thousands and thousands of gallons of clean water and made a lot of compost that fertilized the vegetables that he fed to his little girls.

This concept isn't a new age fad or a whim of some idealistic wackos. It's a matter of life and death. This planet cannot be expected to continue to sustain our growing population unless we start to work with it.


----------



## wind_magic

Knot,

I think where I am going to end up is with about three different things to dispose of on the boat related to the head.


Paper trash - used paper, stored in its own bag.
Liquid
Solid

The paper trash I can dispose of easily enough, just burn the bag it is in, 'nuff said.

The liquid too is fairly easy to get rid of.

The solid, well, I don't know. On the boat I won't have an easy way to get rid of it. I do not plan to compost it on the boat, that's for sure, it takes a long time and if you are living aboard there would be a lot of it, it just isn't practical I don't think. So that leaves me with something close to what you are talking about, either using a holding tank and pumping it like most people, or carrying the solids somewhere and doing something with them. Didn't I see in a movie where the military mixed solids with diesel and burned it ? I think keeping the solids and paper separate is a good idea, it would really cut down on the bulk.


----------



## knothead

Thanks Windy. You just gave me the million dollar idea. $$$$$
Here's what I'll do. I make a bunch of compost piles along every coast in North America and let cruisers dump their valuable, nutrient rich fertilizer on my piles for an extremely nominal fee. Wink, Wink. Then, after waiting for a few months for a bunch of bacteria to do what they have been doing since way before man came along, I'll sell the finished product for 7 or 8 dollars a bag and then go buy my own island in the Caribbean. Dude, I owe you. :laugher

Hmmm. I may have to make it a franchise. Anybody want in?:laugher:laugher:laugher


----------



## knothead

wind_magic said:


> I think keeping the solids and paper separate is a good idea, it would really cut down on the bulk.


All kidding aside, you could realistically keep a month's accumulation of solids, for two adults in three five gallon buckets. No problem. That includes the main ingredient, the toilet paper and a generous amount of cover material.
I don't know exactly where I would stow three five gallon buckets aboard my Nor'Sea 27', but when I think back on how much stuff I carried when I was cruising, I don't think I would have too much of a problem. But I doubt that one would have to carry it that long. 
Personally, I would have no problem burying it in an unpopulated area if it were necessary. 
But this makes me wonder what a port official would do if you announced upon check-in that you have a couple of buckets of humanure to contribute to their town's compost pile.


----------



## wind_magic

knothead said:


> But this makes me wonder what a port official would do if you announced upon check-in that you have a couple of buckets of humanure to contribute to their town's compost pile.


Maybe it is like declaring you have fruits from another country, maybe they'll just take it.


----------



## genieskip

wind_magic said:


> Knot,
> 
> I think where I am going to end up is with about three different things to dispose of on the boat related to the head.
> 
> 
> Paper trash - used paper, stored in its own bag.
> Liquid
> Solid
> 
> The paper trash I can dispose of easily enough, just burn the bag it is in, 'nuff said.
> 
> The liquid too is fairly easy to get rid of.
> 
> The solid, well, I don't know. On the boat I won't have an easy way to get rid of it. I do not plan to compost it on the boat, that's for sure, it takes a long time and if you are living aboard there would be a lot of it, it just isn't practical I don't think. So that leaves me with something close to what you are talking about, either using a holding tank and pumping it like most people, or carrying the solids somewhere and doing something with them. Didn't I see in a movie where the military mixed solids with diesel and burned it ? I think keeping the solids and paper separate is a good idea, it would really cut down on the bulk.


Not sure I understand. Yes, the first two, paper and liquid are easy. The solid component isn't that difficult either. Mix it with peat moss with some bacteria designed to digest the stuff (any hardware store has it for septic systems), keep it in a closed container that is connected to the outside by a 1 1/2 inch hose connected to a solar vent to keep a negative pressure in the solids container and you have the problem solved. It really doesn't smell bad if it is well mixed and vented. In my opening entry I mentioned that the fan got jammed by some caulk and for the first week of use there was no ventilation at all and it still took a week for the people on the boat to notice any odor. According to the people at AirHead the unit is supposed to be good for 80 uses or so. I never counted but I find that removing the compost once a season, in the spring, is adequate. And if it wasn't, I'd wait till I was well offshore and dump it out, put in some fresh peat moss and start all over.


----------



## genieskip

knothead said:


> All kidding aside, you could realistically keep a month's accumulation of solids, for two adults in three five gallon buckets. No problem. That includes the main ingredient, the toilet paper and a generous amount of cover material.
> I don't know exactly where I would stow three five gallon buckets aboard my Nor'Sea 27', but when I think back on how much stuff I carried when I was cruising, I don't think I would have too much of a problem. But I doubt that one would have to carry it that long.
> Personally, I would have no problem burying it in an unpopulated area if it were necessary.
> But this makes me wonder what a port official would do if you announced upon check-in that you have a couple of buckets of humanure to contribute to their town's compost pile.


Knothead, I really don't think it would take three five gallon buckets to store a month's accumulation. If you have an adequate amount of peat moss or equivalent, I believe at the rate of once a day per for two people, one five gallon bucket should last at least a month. The bottom container of an AirHead is about half the size of a five gallon bucket and I don't doubt the manufacturer's claim that it can hold 80 uses.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brilliant posts Knot. Very helpful. I'm totally composting from here on out.

Thanks.


----------



## knothead

genieskip said:


> Knothead, I really don't think it would take three five gallon buckets to store a month's accumulation. If you have an adequate amount of peat moss or equivalent, I believe at the rate of once a day per for two people, one five gallon bucket should last at least a month. The bottom container of an AirHead is about half the size of a five gallon bucket and I don't doubt the manufacturer's claim that it can hold 80 uses.


That's where this thing can get a little confusing for people. Your head is a true composter. It actually reduces the amount of material through the process of decomposition. So the end result is that you are able to get a lot more material into the same size container than I would. 
The system I use is simply a containment system. I keep the stuff, well covered by whatever material I happen to be using in a plain, unventilated (except that it's open at the top) bucket until it gets full and I need to empty it. It's not mixed up in the bucket, just covered. It doesn't compost in the bucket. It composts after it's added to the compost pile.


----------



## hellosailor

Maybe one of you composting folks can explain something here to me?

Suppose I use a composting toilet "today" and need to empty it "tomorrow".

OK, today's waste is still a biohazard tomorrow, it can't just be dumped in the garbage and it certainly won't be composted overnight. So what's the difference between dumping the contents of the composting toilet, and dumping raw sewage?

What do you do, install two of them, and alternate each month so they really get a chance to COMPOST?


----------



## tomwatt

The author of "How to Poop in the Woods" is suggesting what amounts to the same kind of system as best - that is, by pushing decomposition as a result of exposing the waste material to aerobic bacteria hastening it's decomposition. There it is suggested the "best" way is to spread the waste in a thin layer on a rock... the composting heads churn the material inside the container, along with peat moss (or other fibrous material) to aide in drying it.
hellosailor, I don't know about overnight. I think that would be pushing things a bit. A week maybe. If the composter is full overnight, it must have been a large crowd... a big party, eh? A single head is never going to be a solution to that situation anyway.


----------



## genieskip

knothead said:


> That's where this thing can get a little confusing for people. Your head is a true composter. It actually reduces the amount of material through the process of decomposition. So the end result is that you are able to get a lot more material into the same size container than I would.
> The system I use is simply a containment system. I keep the stuff, well covered by whatever material I happen to be using in a plain, unventilated (except that it's open at the top) bucket until it gets full and I need to empty it. It's not mixed up in the bucket, just covered. It doesn't compost in the bucket. It composts after it's added to the compost pile.


I see your point.

My question then becomes why just contain it when by adding some peat moss you could actually be composting it in the bucket? It really wouldn't be that hard to make the five gallon bucket into a composter. Even if you didn't vent it as long as you had enough peat moss in it, it would work better than just containing it. I'm not enough of an expert to know if it would really work without ventilation, so I could be off on this, but if you are going to contain it, why not contain it with something that would mitigate odor and start it along the composting path?

I can't believe that my longest thread on this site is about poop!

Anyone want to talk about light weather mains? I think I'll start a thread about that.


----------



## tomwatt

genieskip said:


> I can't believe that my longest thread on this site is about poop!
> 
> Anyone want to talk about light weather mains? I think I'll start a thread about that.


How about one about how light weather mains affect poop on board?

Seriously though, I think you've added some very useful "poop" for us to contemplate.


----------



## genieskip

tomwatt said:


> How about one about how light weather mains affect poop on board?
> 
> Seriously though, I think you've added some very useful "poop" for us to contemplate.


My experience while racing is that, in light weather, all poops are interrupted by sailchanges. It is a given, regular or composting toilet!


----------



## wind_magic

tomwatt said:


> How about one about how light weather mains affect poop on board?
> 
> Seriously though, I think you've added some very useful "poop" for us to contemplate.


As long as nobody tries to combine this thread with the Scrapple thread I think we're okay ..


----------



## genieskip

hellosailor said:


> Maybe one of you composting folks can explain something here to me?
> 
> Suppose I use a composting toilet "today" and need to empty it "tomorrow".
> 
> OK, today's waste is still a biohazard tomorrow, it can't just be dumped in the garbage and it certainly won't be composted overnight. So what's the difference between dumping the contents of the composting toilet, and dumping raw sewage?
> 
> What do you do, install two of them, and alternate each month so they really get a chance to COMPOST?


Why would you need to empty it tomorrow? Seriously, it can sit there, fat, dumb and happy for months on end without needing to be dumped immediately. My last years' collection is still aboard the boat. I plan to take it out and put it into the flower garden sometime in april. It doesn't smell, doesn't cause a problem and is not a biohazard. If I'm out at sea and it needs to be disposed it can just be dumped overboard if you are far enough offshore. It is legal to pump put your holding tanks if you are offshore, so something semicomposted is certainly OK.


----------



## nailbunnySPU

As a liveaboard, I'm having trouble picturing a scenario where disposing of this compost is uncomplicated. I must say I lack a flower garden and an ever-increasing accumulation of potted plants on my finger pier may strike some as suspicious. This could be a catalyst for a very interesting conversation with the marina office. I could take it out to sea from time to time, but sometimes water freezes.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not that enthusiastic about pump-outs, i'd love for an easier solution. With the rigorous use only a liveaboard could provide, how often would I have to attend to these things?


----------



## wind_magic

nailbunnySPU said:


> As a liveaboard, I'm having trouble picturing a scenario where disposing of this compost is uncomplicated. I must say I lack a flower garden and an ever-increasing accumulation of potted plants on my finger pier may strike some as suspicious. This could be a catalyst for a very interesting conversation with the marina office. I could take it out to sea from time to time, but sometimes water freezes.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, i'm not that enthusiastic about pump-outs, i'd love for an easier solution. With the rigorous use only a liveaboard could provide, how often would I have to attend to these things?


Nail, as often happens, has hit on the main point. I think it is a great idea to compost and all the rest, but as a practical matter when you are on the boat all the time, how can you really do it ? I just picture being on the boat anchored in a cove somewhere and ... what, dinghy over to shore, break out a shovel and start digging a giant cat hole on a piece of property that you don't even know who owns it ? Or get on the bicycle and cruise down the road holding a 5 gallon bucket of poop out to one side ?


----------



## hellosailor

"Seriously, it can sit there, fat, dumb and happy for months on end without needing to be dumped immediately."
You're still missing the point. It doesn't matter when you dump it, the head still needs to have been UNUSED FOR 30 DAYS before you can safely dump it as "compost" rather than "sewage". Thirty days being a rough number--but the point is, the head must be left unused while the final composting is going on, or else you need to dump sewage--not compost.

So how do you plan to let the head go unused, for how long, before you think sanitary compost can be dumped out of it? Considering the number of diseases (typhoid, polio, cholera, dysentery from all sorts of critters...) that can be spread if you don't know that one of your guests had a bug and dropped it into your "compost" heap...

Now instead of pumping your sewage into a standard pump-out fitting and system, you are left with trying to fit your bucket into the local sewage system, or pouring it down someone's toilet and hoping it doesn't clog.

I don't see that as any advantage, unless you can be sure you have compost--not sewage--to dump.

A friend of mine was real proud of his kitchen/garden compost heap, and showed me the tomato plant that grew out of part of the compost. I looked at him and said, you know, if it was properly composted THAT SEED COULD NOT HAVE GROWN. Fortunately he just uses green wastes, not sewage, in that pile.


----------



## genieskip

wind_magic said:


> Nail, as often happens, has hit on the main point. I think it is a great idea to compost and all the rest, but as a practical matter when you are on the boat all the time, how can you really do it ? I just picture being on the boat anchored in a cove somewhere and ... what, dinghy over to shore, break out a shovel and start digging a giant cat hole on a piece of property that you don't even know who owns it ? Or get on the bicycle and cruise down the road holding a 5 gallon bucket of poop out to one side ?


This is not a good system for a stationary liveaboard. Great for part time sailors, good for cruisers who go offshore more often than it takes to ring up 70 or 80 uses of the head for a solid donation. If you live aboard and don't move much you really need two heads and alternate the use so one is composting while the other is being used and unless you already have two heads this is no solution at all. When the material is well composted it is very innocuous, I would not hesitate to put it in the trash. After all I put it in our flower garden with no objections from the admiral. If you live aboard at a marina this is not the system for you.


----------



## RonRelyea

*Second Bucket?*



genieskip said:


> This is not a good system for a stationary liveaboard. Great for part time sailors, good for cruisers who go offshore more often than it takes to ring up 70 or 80 uses of the head for a solid donation. If you live aboard and don't move much you really need two heads and alternate the use so one is composting while the other is being used and unless you already have two heads this is no solution at all. When the material is well composted it is very innocuous, I would not hesitate to put it in the trash. After all I put it in our flower garden with no objections from the admiral. If you live aboard at a marina this is not the system for you.


OR .. instead of a whole second head, how about just a ventilated storage bucket to complete the last 30 days of composting?? How big of a bucket would you need? Shake it once in a while to aerate ... ??????


----------



## tommays

Some must poop a LOT as even on the 35' with 8 crew we can pretty much make the season with a 6 gallon potty If we collect pee ?


----------



## nailbunnySPU

I might go years without leaving the chesapeake bay, which has enough nitrogen pollution already. But then again, 80 movements is a hell of a lot. There certainly would be plenty of time to plan for its storage. Perhaps just throwing it in the garbage would keep it out of the water table, landfills generally have clay beneath. Maybe I need to sneak into yucca mountain and store it there, just to make sure.

Still leaves the issue of liquid waste, which accumulates at its normal rate. What's needed is the filter that kevin kostner has in waterworld.


----------



## knothead

I see this thread has been busy today. 

I want to post a link to an excellent article that answers a lot of questions. Then I'm going to read everything I missed today.

Duckworks

Here's a relevant paragraph for those who don't feel like reading the whole thing. 

This system is great for us inshore cruisers, as we get to land to do the composting, and can easily carry a weekend's worth of buckets.
(Actually, this applies equally to and hunters, campers, fishermen, people traveling with potty-training-aged kids, etc.) We also don't have salt breeze to mask unpleasant anaerobic smells. Ocean cruisers might have more trouble with this method unless they budgeted a whole lot of space for sawdust and could compost onboard. Here the Sun-Mar system might make more sense, as it is self contained and speeds the system with forced aeration and heat. It would likely still be cheaper than a marine head, as the composting system costs very little in maintenance.
However, I suspect 140 degree rolls would present problems for any system.


----------



## knothead

genieskip said:


> I see your point.
> 
> _*My question then becomes why just contain it when by adding some peat moss you could actually be composting it in the bucket? It really wouldn't be that hard to make the five gallon bucket into a composter. *_Even if you didn't vent it as long as you had enough peat moss in it, it would work better than just containing it. I'm not enough of an expert to know if it would really work without ventilation, so I could be off on this, but if you are going to contain it, why not contain it with something that would mitigate odor and start it along the composting path?
> 
> I can't believe that my longest thread on this site is about poop!
> 
> Anyone want to talk about light weather mains? I think I'll start a thread about that.


That's the part that's got me stumped. I haven't figured out how to make it compost in the bucket. I think you need to mix it and ventilate it or something. I read in the article that I linked to that some systems even use heat to stimulate the bacteria.  I have found that emptying the bucket a couple times a month (and that's using it everyday) is the easiest way for me to go. But then I have a great compost pile. 
For my purposes, since I'm not living aboard and not cruising and keep my boat tied up behind my house, the bucket thing seems to be the best choice.

I think that until someone has actual experience with this, they are naturally going to have a lot of misgivings and trepidation. I know that I did. 
The truth is, as I quickly discovered, is that it's easy, clean and cheap. It saves a lot of water and doesn't smell as much as a regular flush toilet.

If one's situation lends itself to using a composting head, whether aboard or ashore, it really is the way to go. If one can only get over the fear factor.


----------



## hellosailor

Well, Duckworks say to use three and cycle through them. Other online sources pretty much confirm that the temperature in the compost must reach 160F and stay there for at least three weeks in order to kill the pathogens.

So, three drums, a good thermometer, a little expertise about ventilation and moisture control....

And this is still less fuss than using the pumpout sytems?


----------



## sailingdog

Not IMHO...and never mind what happens with a composting head when the boat gets knocked down.


hellosailor said:


> Well, Duckworks say to use three and cycle through them. Other online sources pretty much confirm that the temperature in the compost must reach 160F and stay there for at least three weeks in order to kill the pathogens.
> 
> So, three drums, a good thermometer, a little expertise about ventilation and moisture control....
> *
> And this is still less fuss than using the pumpout sytems?*


----------



## bljones

sailingdog said:


> Not IMHO...and never mind what happens with a composting head when the boat gets knocked down.


What happens?

SH*T HAPPENS.

I've been waiting for the chance to use that line. Thanks SD.


----------



## sailingdog

de nada...


bljones said:


> What happens?
> 
> SH*T HAPPENS.
> 
> I've been waiting for the chance to use that line. Thanks SD.


----------



## knothead

hellosailor said:


> Well, Duckworks say to use three and cycle through them. Other online sources pretty much confirm that the temperature in the compost must reach 160F and stay there for at least three weeks in order to kill the pathogens.
> 
> So, three drums, a good thermometer, a little expertise about ventilation and moisture control....
> 
> And this is still less fuss than using the pumpout sytems?


For me, absolutely less fuss. My boat lives about twenty feet from my compost pile. My man cave is a little further. I only use one bucket and I line it with sheets of newspaper (which composts) so that it stays clean when it's emptied. Because it's about fifty percent cover material, it's very light when it's full. 
I don't have a thermometer. I've seen steam coming from a compost pile but I really don't care about the temp. I'm not going to touch that compost until it's completely decomposed anyway. I have space built for two large piles. One will be used until it's full which will take at least a year, probably more. Then that one will sit as the other one fills.

What you have to keep in mind about composting is that there's really no one right way to do it. Think about it. Everything is going to compost eventually given enough time. I could simply put the lid tight on my five gallon bucket, drill a 1/4" hole through it and leave it in the corner of my yard somewhere and in a couple of years it will have turned into humus.

As far as the pathogens go, they will die anyway. It just takes longer. I've read that you should let compost age for two years before using it agriculturally if it hasn't undergone thermophilic composting. It's really a non issue. If you are carrying the pathogens or worms yourself and thereby infecting the feces, then you really don't have to worry about catching it. You need to worry about getting rid of it. 

I would imagine that you stand as good or better chance of actually making contact with pathogens during a pumpout than emptying a mostly dry and partially composted bucket of solids. 
I hate marine heads. Always have and always will. They stink, they leak, they get plugged up, they have to be rebuilt, they make you drill holes in the bottom of your boat, they stink, they force you to carry all that sewage which adds up to a crapload of weight, they spill when you get knocked down whereas a bucket has a snap on water proof lid that you have to fight to get off and can probably be dropped from the spreader without spilling it's contents. Did I mention that they stink?
Seriously, I once sailed across the Atlantic and only used the head once. We were in an anchorage and it was an emergency. That's how much I hate marine heads.

I almost never pull up to a fuel dock in my boat. Even when we were cruising, I fueled from jerry jugs. It's even easier to do that now that I live ashore. Taking care of a sealed bucket of partially composted manure once or twice a month is definitely easier than carrying and emptying jerry jugs of fuel and water.

Take my word for it, it's a lot easier than having to take my boat someplace and usually in front of a gaggle of people, pump out a bunch of foul smelling sewage from a boat. Using questionable equipment that 15 minutes ago was pumping out someone elses' foul smelling raw sewage which for all I know does carry pathogens and worms. Hoping all the while that the previous user polluted a whole bunch of fresh water during the process to wash away any spillage onto the dock and into the water. :laugher

To each his own i guess, but I would challenge anybody to come up with a less expensive, more reliable, less odoriferous way to take care of a very basic function than using another very basic function. Composting.

I was a skeptic too until I tried it.


----------



## chrisj13

Wow, lot's of great points here. Who would've thought poop would be so interesting!?


----------



## Superpickle

chrisj13 said:


> Wow, lot's of great points here. Who would've thought poop would be so interesting!?


I DO agree. Cost be damned, its Worth it.

TWO Please


----------



## saltyoldman

Last year I seriously considered a composting head. I searched for those that had one and exchanged emails. I could not find anyone that had installed one for more than a year. So I was leary of only the good comments that I was able to elicit.

However, the thing that really swayed me to going the traditional route in the end, was the size requirements. I have an peice of classic plastic that is 33 feet but has a head compartment the size of broom closet. The composting head require slightly more room than the traditional heads. They tend to be a few inches deeper and you need room for the agitating crank, while its only a inch or two more, it was a killer for me.

Additionally, the cost of these units, seems out of line for what they are. They are nothing more than molded plastic, there are few moving parts. There are no pumps and complicated plumping involved. The price just seems out of line.

Given, all of that, coupled with the genieskips orginal comments, I probably would have installed one if I had the room.


----------



## knothead

I finally received my Ecovita Privy Kit. There was a little snafu with the order, and it took a long time to get here, but they eventually got it shipped off and I got a free book out of the deal for the delay. Nice people.

Anyway, here's what you get for your $112.00 plus dollars.










Basically, a plastic separating bowl, a Styrofoam seat and cover. 
They provide a template on the cardboard box that you can cut out. 
Oh, they also provide a piece of hose. I decided to fit the urine container right under the bowl so I didn't use the hose.










Here's what I wanted to do. First, replace this piece of crap in the boat.










Second, replace the simple bucket and jug system that I was using in the Man Cave.










So I went to the Home Depot and bought two sheets of 3/4" ply wood that they had on sale and had the nice fellow there cut them into enough pieces to make two units. 
It only took him a 15 minutes or so and he did a much better job than I could have done at home.










I bought one cartridge of liquid nails and got out of there for just over $50.00. 
I ripped down a six foot two by four that I had for the corner pieces and cleats and started dry fitting things so that I could figure out where to cut my holes. 
I cut holes in the floor of the unit so that the bucket and jug would not be able to slip or slide when the boat heels.



















It was a good thing that I was planning to build twin units. I missed the location for the liquid container by about a half an inch on the first attempt, so I cut the second piece, the one that goes on the boat correctly.










I'm not nearly as concerned about the land based unit, but I wanted the one for the boat to be right. Here's a view from the top.










And bottom.










There will be room inside the box to keep the lids for the containers.










Because I am a real cheapskate and because the Privy kit was the most expensive part of this project, I wanted to be able to use the separator and seat for both the boat and the land based unit so rather than hinging the top part I made it to inset so that it can be moved from one unit to the other. 
I also didn't really like the Styrofoam and thought it was kinda fragile. So I painted it with gray bilge coat and glued it to the top piece to stiffen it up and so that I didn't have to worry about a bunch of loose parts.










So anyway, here's what I ended up with. The finished dimensions are 18" high, 17" wide and 20" deep.



















A little more paint and it'll be ready to be installed in the boat. 
I figure that after the old head is removed, this one won't take much more than a couple of wood screws to install. Easy to remove in the unlikely event that the boat is ever sold to someone who would rather deal with a liquid system.


----------



## daydreamer92

re: Toilet in the Box

I never thought I'd say this about a toilet but... neat!

I was intrigued by the Nature's Head (I haven't heard anything bad about that particular composting toilet yet), but as noted, it is spendy right now. Your simple Toilet in the Box idea has appeal. I'm gonna show it to Husband. 

Does the uh, separator separate solids without um, manual encouragement? I assume pee just flows where it needs to go. Will toilet paper fall down into the Bucket of Future Goodness on its own?


----------



## MedSailor

I've had the "Nature's head" onboard for about 8 months now, living aboard full time. It's awesome. It's not as trouble free as a shoreside toilet but MUCH better than boat systems. It's 99% odor free (way better than the old stinky) and we find that adding dish soap to the pee-bottle works perfect. 

We find the compressed coconut husk blocks are the perfect medium for compost. Peat moss can contain bugs, which is not cool. We also put the TP in a separate trash container as we have been doing that for years we just kept up the habit with the composter. 

We empty it every few months. Not that messy or unpleasant at all. 

I'd also like to put in a plug for the awesome customer service of "Nature's head". We emailed the owner with teething questions on our first batch. He was on the phone to us within a couple hours and troubleshooted our problems. He also recommended that we switch to coconut fiber which I told him I could probably find locally. He wanted to be sure I could try the correct stuff and find it myself later and insisted on express shipping me enough for 2 batches at his (considerable) cost. What great service! On the other hand we bought our unit from "ecovita". Don't buy from them. Buy from any of the other resellers. 

Even though I have built my own "perfect" marine systems from scratch we will never go back to marine toilets. Now in place of the 20gal holding tank, macerator and plumbing we have a shiny new 35gal water tank.  

Medsailor

PS I had an nearly identical experience as the OP. Bulging tank, about to burst. Pulled off the vent hose to relieve the pressure and there was a geyser of sewage..... Just another advantage of the composting toilets, no chance of the "geyser of sewage."


----------



## 4arch

I'm getting more and more sold on the composting toilet idea but I truly don't have a place to put a compost pile on my property and I wouldn't feel comfortable just dumping the stuff on my marina property, out in the woods, etc. I did have the thought that with one of the separator units I could pour the liquid waste down the toilet either at my marina or at home and double plastic bag the solid waste and chuck it in the dumpster (not really any different than what people do with their dog waste). Other than not being as environmentally friendly, does anyone see any downsides to my potential strategy for shoreside disposal?


----------



## daydreamer92

Wouldn't throwing composted poop into a dumpster be a lot more eco friendly than well, whatever happens to poop soup now? It'll be harmless in the landfill, wouldn't it, and even better than most of the stuff you're probably tossing out.

I might not advertise to people what that dirt was; one thing this topic has shown in there is a reflexive EW! POO! reaction in most of us. While it's obviously okay to fling baggies of doggie do into any public container (I sure do it, I have five dogs) the humanure --best word ever, btw -- might raise, pardon the inaccurate pun, a stink. 

I've told my husband about this topic. He had the same initial reaction as most. "EW! Sounds awful!" I dunno why he'd prefer a portapottie, that sounds far more disgusting to me as you lug it about with the ah, contents, sloshing away.

He also asked about the uh, less than firm contributions to the poop pot, so I must thank the person who already brought that up. I was prepared. ::grin::


----------



## nailbunnySPU

The big issue here is nitrogen and phosphorous. These are the pollutants that provide nutrients for algae blooms that get out of control, sometimes leading to "dead zones". This is what made the water green.

Urine may be (relatively) sterile, so there's no concern of poisoning people by dumping over an oyster bed, but it's still quite high in nitrogen.

Yer american landfill usually has a couple feet of clay to keep its goodies from seeping into the ground water, so it's my best guess for solids.

I don't want to think what one of those bucket systems would do in a knockdown. Could you imagine going completely over, and the stuff hitting the ceiling is what throws your moment of capsize? Can any of these composting heads flip downside up without hilarious consequences?


----------



## wind_magic

I think if you were about to be pitch poled you could have put the lid on. It isn't like you are going to be sailing along on a beam reach under blue skies and all of a sudden get pitch poled.  You probably have plenty of notice to prepare your boat for something like that.


----------



## bljones

knothead said:


>


I love the irony of using a cat litter jug.


----------



## 4arch

I don’t know that a conventional head/holding tank setup would be totally bulletproof in a knockdown/roll situation either. I’d rather have the >5 gallons of relatively dry waste material a bucket or composting toilet would contain spill in the confines of the head compartment than have a holding tank burst or have a hose break or pull off or have backflow through the system all potentially spilling way more than 5 gallons of liquid sewage that could seep and slosh its way through the entire saloon before there was any chance to contain it.


----------



## marujosortudo

Actually, it looks like the Nature's Head and Air Head both have trap doors that are closed when not in use. I'm not sure if you'd need to put a lid on the urine container or such to control outflow in a knockdown, or if there are latches on the assembly to keep the compost in. Can anyone with one of these confirm how they're protected against a knockdown?

As a side note, I've been using Joseph Jenkin's humanure composting system at home for 2+ years now and am very happy with it. That said, I would only consider a urine-separating system for on boat use--for many reasons. For me, it's only a matter of time until I install a Nature's Head or the like.


----------



## MedSailor

marujosortudo said:


> Actually, it looks like the Nature's Head and Air Head both have trap doors that are closed when not in use. I'm not sure if you'd need to put a lid on the urine container or such to control outflow in a knockdown, or if there are latches on the assembly to keep the compost in. Can anyone with one of these confirm how they're protected against a knockdown?
> 
> As a side note, I've been using Joseph Jenkin's humanure composting system at home for 2+ years now and am very happy with it. That said, I would only consider a urine-separating system for on boat use--for many reasons. For me, it's only a matter of time until I install a Nature's Head or the like.


The nature's head has a trap door that would contain solids. The urine would be allowed to travel up and out the tubes in a knockdown only if the jug was more than 1/2 full. However, unless you spent a great deal of time upside down it wouldn't be much. I bet a momentary knockdown wouldn't leak any unless the jug was full.

Medsailor


----------



## MedSailor

I'm glad to see the composting discussion gaining a little steam. I'll see if I can write up a more complete review of my Nature's Head.

The basic premise of the system is liquid vs solid separation. This is the key to everything about this head (and the airhead) and is what makes it different than composting toilets in national parks and VERY different than a porta-pottie. Separation of liquid and solids are done with an ingenious bowl design. Basically there are holes at the front that a male or female of grossly normal anatomy would deposit liquid into if seated. A skilled male on a stable boat can also deposit liquid into the correct part of the toilet from a standing position but you must have advanced enough "handling skills" to at least write your name in the snow. 

Liquid is collected in a 2-ish gallon tank that we find doesn't smell if we add (biodegradable) dish soap to it. It will smell a bit of pee while you're emptying it, especially if it's a few days old. It's not horrible though. BTW buy 2 urine tanks (they come with lids) or have a way to dispose of it from down below. The design of the toilets are not forgiving of overflows.... at all. A pee bottle usually lasts the two of us 1.5-2 days of full time living aboard. You could conceivably fill it up in one day if you're both drinking heaps of Mexican beer or a similar diuretic. 

In order to comply with all US coast-guard regulations the urine bottle should be carried ashore and emptied into a shore-side toilet for disposal. There is a handy carrying handle for doing this. Since I ALWAYS comply with ALL coast guard recommendations no matter how silly, this is what we do.  

While in canada (only of course) you are allowed to discharge whatever you like into the oceans. I doubt anyone really believes urine is harmful to the ocean. I personally think trying to destroy the sea by peeing in it would be about as effective as "pissing in the ocean." As a medical person I also believe that solids are not as harmful as the coast guard would have us believe, but I digress.

For your intellectual curiosity I put forth the following idea. According to the Code of Federal Regulations CFR, which is the letter of the law that the coast guard enforces a "marine sanitation device" is: 

33CFR
"§ 159.3 Definitions Marine sanitation device and device includes any equipment for installation on board a vessel which is designed to receive, retain, treat, or discharge sewage, and any process to treat such sewage."

I put it to you that a sink is not "designed to retain treat discharge..." etc. An extra sink mounted in the head that uses up one of your toilet's old through hulls would be a convenient place to empty your pee bottle while in canada. The sink would also not be subject to all the US coast guard rules that go along with MSDs such as securing the seacock etc. This allows you, while in canada, to empty your pee bottle without offending (or explaining things) to your neighbors. It also reduces the chances of spilling on your salon carpet. If the sink were mounted at a lower height than a standard sink it would also allow the male members of the crew do bypass the urine bottle entirely.

Next post I'll address the "meat of the matter" in the more fibrous part of my review.

Medsailor


----------



## MedSailor

The solids are what everybody is concerned about. They are deposited into the main section of the toilet through a trap door. There is a lever that is easily operated while seated that opens the trap door. Your deposit then lands in your compost medium. You then deposit your TP in either a separate collecting bin (as we do) or in with its new steamy friend. You then close the trap door and after you're finished and rotate the handle on the side of the unit to mix the deposit and the compost medium.

For those that have read the awesome "humanure handbook" the compost in these systems never becomes thermophyllic, and therefore is likely not ever rendered perfectly safe for putting on food crops. What does happen, however, is dehydration of the solids and some breakdown. I don't really care that it doesn't turn into dirt that my kids can play in, what I care about is that it is easily dealt with in a non-oderous way.

Dehydration of your contributions is achieved by mixing it with the dry compost medium and by the vent fan. The Nature's Head comes with a cool plastic fitting that fits into a nicro solar vent. We just so happen to have one of those in our head, so toilet install was literally seconds for us. The vent provides continuous flow of air which, especially in hot climates, dehydrates things. The longer you go between deposits, the longer you can go without emptying the bin.

We kept using the head even in the height of seattle winter when the vent wasn't functional at all. The head comes with a computer fan type that you can hook up to 12v (and we will) but we wanted to see how things worked without the vent. It worked fine, but after a few weeks of continuous usage things became a little wet and the agitation handle was difficult to turn. This can be solved by adding more dry compost or emptying the unit.

Even when the vent wasn't functioning there was never any appreciable smell from the toilet. It is truly as close to odor free as you can get. The only smell we have ever had was after 4 of us were boozing and eating at anchor for 3 days without going ashore in the height of summer. The vent was working great (lots of sun) and the smell that we got from the vent was a smell of dirt, not poop. The head and belowdecks didn't have any new smell, but if you got too close to the vent it smelled of dirt. Not a bad smell, but I was getting a bit self-conscious about it. That was also in our early days when we used peat moss and added a gallon of water to it. Now we use much drier compost medium.

Coconut compost stuff:
Coco Peat!

We also had another issue with peat moss. It can come from the store with bugs in it, which multiply in your head. NOT COOL. Great way to make the ladies move ashore for good. Now what we use are compressed coconut fiber bricks. They're approximately the same dimentions as a household building brick and are super compressed. The cost $3 or so at a garden store and 1.5 bricks plus 3 cups of water is enough for a batch. This system, recommended by the designer, lasts us months of continuous use. If we can't be bothered emptying the entire batch, you can also use a garden trowel to scoop out some of the dirt (it really does resemble dirt, not poop) and add your 1/2 brick and be good for another month or so. Another cool thing about them is that they don't take up much storage space. You can easily carry a year+ of compost material in a small locker (probably 6-8bricks).

It's hard to say exactly how long it lasts as recently we've been living aboard and using it but we're also using some shore-side facilities. I figure for living at anchor full time, 4-8 weeks per couple per batch is probably about right. Emptying it is really not traumatic at all as even when it's time to empty it the "stuff" really resembles dirt, not anything more sinister. The bin part of the head is the correct size to tightly fit a garbage bag, you then tip it upside down and you're done. Carry the bag ashore and dispose of it with regular waste. Not harmful to the land-fill at all. I do suspect that 4 adults using the unit full time might overwhelm it if for more than a weekend. And if you are not using it full time, you can go 6 months or so between emptyings.

We absolutely love our nature's head and are glad to be rid of old stinky. I just wish I could have the holes in my boat back. The system is easy, totally non-smelly and much less prone to catastrophy. We also now have space for a huge water tank where the "tank of sin and evil" and it's components used to fester.

Give it a try, you won't be sorry.

MedSailor

PS The Airhead and Nature's heads were the only two that I knew of (besides home built ones) when I was shopping. They both use the same concept and I believe the Airhead would work as well as the Nature's Head. We chose the Nature's Head because of the following:

1: The urine bottle was 1 piece and we had heard of fitting failures/leaks on the airhead bottle.
2: Integral seat seems like a good idea on a boat.
3: More attractive color.
4: A little cheaper.


----------



## sailingdog

Medsailor-

The Coast Guard would probably argue that since you're pissing in the sink, it is a marine sanitation device, since it is designed to "receive" sewage the way you've installed and used it... and fine you accordingly if doing so inside an NDZ or within the three-mile limit. 



> I put it to you that a sink is not "designed to retain treat discharge..." etc. An extra sink mounted in the head that uses up one of your toilet's old through hulls would be a convenient place to empty your pee bottle while in canada. The sink would also not be subject to all the US coast guard rules that go along with MSDs such as securing the seacock etc. This allows you, while in canada, to empty your pee bottle without offending (or explaining things) to your neighbors. It also reduces the chances of spilling on your salon carpet. If the sink were mounted at a lower height than a standard sink it would also allow the male members of the crew do bypass the urine bottle entirely.


----------



## nailbunnySPU

MedSailor said:


> I doubt anyone really believes urine is harmful to the ocean. I personally think trying to destroy the sea by peeing in it would be about as effective as "pissing in the ocean."


I'm saying that, my last post said as much, let me put a finer point on it.

Human urine is estimated to contain 80% of the nitrogen and 50% of the phosphorous in wastewater.

http://www.ramiran.net/doc98/FIN-POST/VINERAS.pdf

Nitrogen and phosphorous pollution lead to green water, fish kills, dead zones and eutrophication.
Eutrophication - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It would be much easier on my conscience and my excretory lifestyle were this not the case, but this is unfortunately the fact of the matter. The ocean itself may not be so easily swayed, but dead zones are popping up in the chesapeake and gulf of mexico.


----------



## sailingdog

The dead zones in the Gulf of Mexico and the Chesapeake have far more to do with excess nitrogen due to fertilizer use than human waste. Another big source of pollution are the waste lagoons at most of the corporate feed lot animal farming operations. When these waste lagoons overflow, there are massive fish kills in the contaminated rivers/streams/creeks. If we eliminated the agricultural runoff, the dead zones would be far, far smaller.


----------



## genieskip

Medsailor, glad to hear from someone who has had liveaboard experience with a composter. I don't live aboard, though I do cruise, sometimes with large crews, for short periods. 

The material that comes out of the composting compartment is much, Much, MUCH less noxious than what used to live in my holding tanks. And the whole thing smells a great deal better than the hoses, pumps etc. that used to pollute my head. Plus I gained a hell of a lot of room getting rid of all that hardware.

I have not been in a knockdown with one of these heads but I can tell you that nothing is going to come out of the composting compartment if the boat spends any time beyond horizontal. It is firmly bolted down and with the trap door between the compartments closed nothing would make its way out. I can't make the same bold statement for the contents of the urine bottle, though if the boat spends much time beyond 90 degrees, a few ounces of urine loose in the head would be the least of my problems. Also, how many mostly full holding tanks are secured well enough to withstand that kind of treatment? I have seen some that would be on the overhead in a knockdown, with much worse consequences than what would happen on my boat.


----------



## genieskip

I really have to agree with Sailingdog. The amount of urine going into the ocean from a cruising sailboat is negligible and considerably less than the proverbial drop in the bucket. The problem is untreated sewage pumped directly into the water from large concentrations of people but mostly agricultural and industrial waste. While we shouldn't get careless , we don't need to go overboard. When not close to shore (and not in rough weather) I pee directly into the water and don't feel the least bit guilty. My pee output for a week still probably doesn't equal a whale's single episode


----------



## nailbunnySPU

into the risk/benefit analysis that plays in our life decisions, we must ask ourselves how big a part of the problem we want to be, and how much it is worth to us to protect a common asset. 

human waste is less of an issue than animals as most of it is treated. The problem with farms, family farms the same as corporate, is untreated runoff. SD's point of agricultural runoff implies that meat consumption is another contributor to pollution, linked to our own lifestyle choices.

emotionally, I'm fine with "i don't care", it's much more honest than denial, justification or moral relativism. i don't care enough to stop eating meat.


----------



## MedSailor

sailingdog said:


> Medsailor-
> 
> The Coast Guard would probably argue that since you're pissing in the sink, it is a marine sanitation device, since it is designed to "receive" sewage the way you've installed and used it... and fine you accordingly if doing so inside an NDZ or within the three-mile limit.


They'd pretty much have to catch me in the act to prove that one. Otherwise it's just a sink. If the idea of that unlikely occurrence keeps you up at night you can always install a seacock with a padlock on the sink drain and be in complete compliance.

MedSailor


----------



## marujosortudo

In my previous town in Virginia, about 90% of the harmful bacteria in our stream from dog poo and about 10% from human poo (that had not been deposited into the sewage system). It is also worth remembering that many sewage systems are also storm drainage systems that overflow and dump untreated sewage into the watershed each time a big storm comes along. I'd agree that what we do in the open ocean probably has a negligible effect, but what we do in sensitive or strained ecosystems may be another matter. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd imagine that each boater that pees in the Chesapeake Bay probably reduces the maximum oyster population just a tiny bit. A shame, because oysters are so tasty.  Even more importantly, as people who enjoy a great part of our lives on the water, I think we have a responsibility to set an example for the landlubbers who effect the water quality so much more and to be a voice for water quality. We're the ones who'll enjoy the clean water and bountiful seafood the most.


----------



## MedSailor

nailbunnySPU said:


> into the risk/benefit analysis that plays in our life decisions, we must ask ourselves how big a part of the problem we want to be, and how much it is worth to us to protect a common asset.
> 
> human waste is less of an issue than animals as most of it is treated. The problem with farms, family farms the same as corporate, is untreated runoff. SD's point of agricultural runoff implies that meat consumption is another contributor to pollution, linked to our own lifestyle choices.
> 
> emotionally, I'm fine with "i don't care", it's much more honest than denial, justification or moral relativism. i don't care enough to stop eating meat.


There is of course the option to take the bottle ashore and dispose of it in a regular toilet. Problem solved.

MedSailor


----------



## nailbunnySPU

I'm sorry for getting pissy, so to speak. As a man of science, medsailor, you might understand, when I think i know the facts I can't settle down.


----------



## wind_magic

What do you all got against algae. 

Comments above seem sort of Opisthokont'centric. Have a heart, algae are Eukaryotes too.


----------



## arf145

genieskip said:


> ...if the boat spends much time beyond 90 degrees, a few ounces of urine loose in the head would be the least of my problems...


If my boat spends much time beyond 90 degrees, there will be some urine flow no matter what happens to the head! 

Tom


----------



## sailingdog

And I'm guessing that it would not occur in the head or near the holding tank, unless you happen to be in that area... 



arf145 said:


> If my boat spends much time beyond 90 degrees, there will be some urine flow no matter what happens to the head!
> 
> Tom


----------



## genieskip

sailingdog said:


> And I'm guessing that it would not occur in the head or near the holding tank, unless you happen to be in that area...


And wet isn't going to be the only natural function working under those circumstances, composting be damned!


----------



## hellosailor

Knothead, that's got to be one of the prettiest homemade portapotties I've ever seen. But all this talk about composting toilets...I'm not seeing any composting, just portapotties without the blue sanitizer.

Unless there's a way to "put the ordure in here, take the compost out there" it ain't a composting toilet in my way of thinking. It's still just a cedar bucket.


----------



## knothead

hellosailor said:


> Knothead, that's got to be one of the prettiest homemade portapotties I've ever seen. (thanks )But all this talk about composting toilets...I'm not seeing any composting, just portapotties without the blue sanitizer.
> 
> Unless there's a way to "put the ordure in here, take the compost out there" it ain't a composting toilet in my way of thinking. It's still just a cedar bucket.


You're right. I should probably not use that terminology. 
I said earlier that technically, my unit and many others, especially the homemade ones are simply containment systems. Because of the cover material and the fact that it's dry for the most part, I'm sure that decomposition begins before the bucket is full and if left long enough, it would compost there. But the real composting happens in the compost pile. 
From what I understand, even a true composting head is probably going to have to be dealt with before the entire contents are completely reduced to humus. So for my purposes, the home made containment system works best.
I can see how it might not be the best solution for everyone. It works really well for me because I have the kind of yard that a compost pile or three won't look out of place. 
I would still use this kind of system if I were living aboard again. For all the reasons that I've stated, but I understand why some people are turned off by the idea. 
I believe it's just a matter of time until this whole issue will be a non issue. I think that people will eventually get over the paranoia and come to understand the many reasons that this system of dealing with our byproducts makes so much more sense on so many levels. Someday water will be too precious to use for this purpose. I think that someday it will be as common place to dump your composting head at the marina as it is to pump out today.

It's an uncomfortable subject and the more we talk about it, the easier it is to talk about it. I think that's a good thing.

Just a quick remark about spillage in rough weather. 
Both the bucket and the jug have tight fitting lids. It wouldn't take much time to cap everything off after every use when at sea if one were really concerned about it. Personally, I don't think it would ever be much of an issue.


----------



## 4arch

I’m practically giddy at the prospect of being able to chuck my holding tank, hoses and marine toilet in the dumpster and be rid of them for good. Separator toilets like the Nature’s Head just seem to make so much more sense to me than sailing around with gallons of raw sewage on my boat. In fact, the whole concept of holding tanks, pumpouts, etc is starting to seem so odd and unappealing that it’s making me wonder if there isn’t some huge downside to separator toilets that nobody’s talking about because it’s hard for me to see why someone would choose to have a holding tank if the alternative wasn’t worse!


----------



## genieskip

4arch said:


> I'm practically giddy at the prospect of being able to chuck my holding tank, hoses and marine toilet in the dumpster and be rid of them for good. Separator toilets like the Nature's Head just seem to make so much more sense to me than sailing around with gallons of raw sewage on my boat. In fact, the whole concept of holding tanks, pumpouts, etc is starting to seem so odd and unappealing that it's making me wonder if there isn't some huge downside to separator toilets that nobody's talking about because it's hard for me to see why someone would choose to have a holding tank if the alternative wasn't worse!


Inertia and the well known conservatism of sailors. _Been doin it this way for last hunnerd years and I aint gonna change, just like me pappy didn't change _ (I know the beast well because I am a strong adherent of it in many other areas of the sport!)

The old fashioned heads made sense when the effluent was piped directly overboard. When the rules changed and you couldn't just shove it off the boat and into the water, people took the easiest modification, adding a tank to hold it till it could be sucked out, and stuck with that. I'm very glad there were some people who thought outside of the traditional to come up with new answers (though the old cedar bucket and sawdust was certainly traditional).

As you can see from the people on the thread that have tried it, the upsides of this conversion outweigh the downsides, at least among those that have given it a fair trial.


----------



## 4arch

Does anyone have any photos of their Airhead or Nature's Head installed? They both look quite large and tall in the pictures on their websites but they never show them actually installed on a boat.


----------



## knothead

genieskip said:


> Inertia and the well known conservatism of sailors. _Been doin it this way for last hunnerd years and I aint gonna change, just like me pappy didn't change _ (I know the beast well because I am a strong adherent of it in many other areas of the sport!)
> 
> The old fashioned heads made sense when the effluent was piped directly overboard. When the rules changed and you couldn't just shove it off the boat and into the water, people took the easiest modification, adding a tank to hold it till it could be sucked out, and stuck with that. I'm very glad there were some people who thought outside of the traditional to come up with new answers (though the old cedar bucket and sawdust was certainly traditional).
> 
> As you can see from the people on the thread that have tried it, the upsides of this conversion outweigh the downsides, at least among those that have given it a fair trial.


The only part of your post that I have a problem with is that somehow, composting is a new or revolutionary idea. 
Check out the Hunza people. They've been composting their humanure for centuries. They reportedly were among the longest lived and healthiest people on earth until they became more _civilized _and began adopting western methods of agriculture.

WWF - Once upon a time in Hunza Valley

IF you study the care of the soil that the Hunza practiced for centuries you will understand why the Hunza are or were a healthy people. If those practices are no longer practiced, then the Hunza is destined to die off just as the rest of the world does: of disease and malnutrition. Preserving a way of life is a worthy cause, even if modern conveniences have to be forsaken. These people were the most beautiful on the planet in terms of general health and vigor. No other part of the world has ever produced such specimens of good health. All on e has to do is look at the way these people ATE and GREW their food. The practices of composting, using everything including humanure were centuries old. Are these ways dying out? You bet. Read "The Wheel Of Health" by G.T. Wrench.This teaches us about the source of long like and health among the Hunzas.


----------



## genieskip

4arch said:


> Does anyone have any photos of their Airhead or Nature's Head installed? They both look quite large and tall in the pictures on their websites but they never show them actually installed on a boat.


They are tall but not much bigger than a normal toilet. I'd take a picture for you but it's snowing to beat the band out there now and I have no plans to go to the boatyard till it gets milder. I have low tolerance for cold. As a matter of fact I'm taking off in a couple of days for Antigua and a friend's big ketch for a week. Life is hard.


----------



## 4arch

Lucky! Just hope you make it out before the next blizzard hits!


----------



## RonRelyea

*how long can your ventilation hose be?*

I went to the marina over the weekend to measure for the installation of a composting toilet. I realized that the head is totally below the dodger area on deck. .... not a good place for a solar powered vent!!!

Does anyone have any experience with a long run of hose for ventilation?? I'm imagining that I will need approximately 6 feet horizontal and 6 feet vertical ... is this too much for a Nicro Solar ventilator to be effective??

Thanks!


----------



## knothead

Ron, I really couldn't say whether the vent would be up to the task, but I imagine that the natural drafting would help offset the horizontal run. 

From what I've recently learned about composting heads, I would be willing to bet that just about any kind of vent would suffice. I've read where someone had a blocked vent and didn't realize it for a couple of weeks. They wrote that they noticed a slightly earthly aroma. Otherwise everything worked fine. 

Hopefully someone else that knows more about Nicro Solar vents will chime in. 

Have you contacted the manufacturer?


----------



## sailingdog

I don't think a Nicro vent is up to dealing with a 12' hose run. The Nicro is not designed to be connected to a hose.


----------



## genieskip

RonRelyea said:


> I went to the marina over the weekend to measure for the installation of a composting toilet. I realized that the head is totally below the dodger area on deck. .... not a good place for a solar powered vent!!!
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with a long run of hose for ventilation?? I'm imagining that I will need approximately 6 feet horizontal and 6 feet vertical ... is this too much for a Nicro Solar ventilator to be effective??
> 
> Thanks!


One of my two composting heads has 11' of hose connected to a Nicro solar vent and works just fine. Same reason as yours for the long run, head was located under the dodger and I wanted to move it forward to a point in front of the dodger. I was able to run most of the hose through a locker to keep it out of view.


----------



## MedSailor

RonRelyea said:


> I went to the marina over the weekend to measure for the installation of a composting toilet. I realized that the head is totally below the dodger area on deck. .... not a good place for a solar powered vent!!!
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with a long run of hose for ventilation?? I'm imagining that I will need approximately 6 feet horizontal and 6 feet vertical ... is this too much for a Nicro Solar ventilator to be effective??
> 
> Thanks!


Doubt the nicro would vent much through that much hose. However, as an experiment I've had my nature's head either not connected at all to a vent, or connected to a nicro in winter with an old battery. Didn't cause a problem at all. Might have worked better if the vent was working, but it wasn't a problem.

The nature's head comes with a computer type fan (12v) installed. I plan to stop using my nicro and use this fan to vent out of a side hull above the waterline through hull, just like the one next to my bilge pump.

MedSailor


----------



## knothead

Please correct me if I'm wrong. 
Hot air rises. 
An air duct from a low position to a higher position will naturally draft or at worst be neutral. 
A fan, whether solar or not, would not be taxed by sucking air out of a naturally drafting duct more than it would be sucking air out of a room. 
It would be assisted. 
No?


----------



## josrulz

On this same subject, the most convenient vent on our boat for a composting head would be a dorade that's already there (factory installed), and runs into the head. I've heard you can use the dorade for an Airhead or Nature's Head vent, but it _seems_ like it could be a problem. Since the dorade vent is designed to force are down into the boat, wouldn't that work against the fan from the composting head?

We're weekend cruisers, so it's not like we're there all the time to "re-aim" the dorade cowl vent away from the wind direction.

Any experience with this?
-J


----------



## sailingdog

Joz—

Face the cowl vent downwind...and the venturi effect will help pull air from the head. If you keep the boat on a mooring, face it aft.


----------



## RonRelyea

*Vent Hose Length*

I sent an e-mail to Nature's Head yesterday and got a reply this morning saying that 12 feet of hose would not be a problem ...

Next question! I know that when I have a long run for a clothes dryer vent, that using sheet metal piping instead of that corrugated fabric-like exhaust hose results in a smoother air-flow (less turbulence inside the piping).

Think I should use PVC instead of the corrugated type hose that comes with the unit?? OR, do I run the risk of ordor permeation like happens with a standard head system??


----------



## sailingdog

You shouldn't get odor permeation with an AIR VENT, especially if you're using PVC pipe, since it doesn't permeate. The only risk with PVC pipe is that it is too rigid and may break if the system flexes at all.


----------



## josrulz

sailingdog said:


> Joz-
> 
> Face the cowl vent downwind...and the venturi effect will help pull air from the head. If you keep the boat on a mooring, face it aft.


Yeah, but we keep our boat in a slip, so during the week, there's no way to tell which way it's pointing. I wonder how much it would actually matter...


----------



## sailingdog

As long as the air is going through the composting chamber, I don't think it much matters one way or another.


----------



## hellosailor

sd-
"The only risk with PVC pipe is that it is too rigid and may break if the system flexes at all"
There are PVC slip joints that are made to accomodate expansion and movement in PVC pipes. Basically, two pieces of PVC pipe that telescope on inside the other, with two robust "rubber" o-rings sealing them together. The pipes are totally free to move that way, and this apparently is used even on waste pipes. FWIW.


----------



## Orionsue

genieskip said:


> One of my two composting heads has 11' of hose connected to a Nicro solar vent and works just fine. Same reason as yours for the long run, head was located under the dodger and I wanted to move it forward to a point in front of the dodger. I was able to run most of the hose through a locker to keep it out of view.


Genieskip, I'll take it that the hose does not have to go straight up then? On our Morgan we have an existing vent, but if we would use that, the hose would go right smack in the middle of the shower unit! Ugh. I've emailed Natures Head and one of the guys actually has a 1972 Morgan 41 (ours is a 1973). I am waiting on some pictures of his installation, hopefully he can find them. 
For me personally...I'll need more info, especially from *full time* cruisers who installed a comp. head. Seems there are not many around. With all due respect, most of you guys are seasonal sailors, so the comp. head would have time to settle during non-usage periods. My hubby and I are going to be full time cruisers, and I am not convinced that a comp. head would be our best solution. I would like it to be, but ... So to all you full time cruisers out there: Please join in the conversation about the good, the bad, and the ugly on comp. heads when cruising 24/7. Many thanks to everybody on this sailnet forum for your excellent advice.  Happy Sailing!


----------



## genieskip

Orionsue said:


> Genieskip, I'll take it that the hose does not have to go straight up then? On our Morgan we have an existing vent, but if we would use that, the hose would go right smack in the middle of the shower unit! Ugh. I've emailed Natures Head and one of the guys actually has a 1972 Morgan 41 (ours is a 1973). I am waiting on some pictures of his installation, hopefully he can find them.
> For me personally...I'll need more info, especially from *full time* cruisers who installed a comp. head. Seems there are not many around. With all due respect, most of you guys are seasonal sailors, so the comp. head would have time to settle during non-usage periods. My hubby and I are going to be full time cruisers, and I am not convinced that a comp. head would be our best solution. I would like it to be, but ... So to all you full time cruisers out there: Please join in the conversation about the good, the bad, and the ugly on comp. heads when cruising 24/7. Many thanks to everybody on this sailnet forum for your excellent advice.  Happy Sailing!


On one of my heads the hose goes horizontal about six feet, tucked away in a locker.

You are right that most of the people that have used the composters are seasonal sailors like me. I too would like to hear from full time cruisers. Don't forget that while it is best to let the material fully compost before getting rid of it you still have the option of cleaning the lower (storage) compartment of the head while offshore. If I were living aboard that's what I would do. Wait till I was offshore (don't forget, that's where you can pump out your holding tank as well), take the lower compartment, tie a stout line to it and dunk it overboard till it was clean, fill it with fresh peat moss or cocoanut shells, and start all over.


----------



## Orionsue

genieskip said:


> On one of my heads the hose goes horizontal about six feet, tucked away in a locker.
> 
> You are right that most of the people that have used the composters are seasonal sailors like me. I too would like to hear from full time cruisers. Don't forget that while it is best to let the material fully compost before getting rid of it you still have the option of cleaning the lower (storage) compartment of the head while offshore. If I were living aboard that's what I would do. Wait till I was offshore (don't forget, that's where you can pump out your holding tank as well), take the lower compartment, tie a stout line to it and dunk it overboard till it was clean, fill it with fresh peat moss or cocoanut shells, and start all over.


Thanks Genieskip. Your solution of dumping the stuff outside the no discharge zone is well taken. However, if I have to resort to that, then why invest 850 bucks when I can achieve a similar result with a bucket and sawdust? I guess I'm not sold on the composting head for full time cruisers. I hope that one day an acceptable composting-like system can be developed for full time cruisers for a reasonable price...I'll come running for it. Happy Sailing


----------



## mikeandrebecca

Orionsue said:


> For me personally...I'll need more info, especially from *full time* cruisers who installed a comp. head. Seems there are not many around. With all due respect, most of you guys are seasonal sailors, so the comp. head would have time to settle during non-usage periods. My hubby and I are going to be full time cruisers, and I am not convinced that a comp. head would be our best solution. I would like it to be, but ... So to all you full time cruisers out there: Please join in the conversation about the good, the bad, and the ugly on comp. heads when cruising 24/7. Many thanks to everybody on this sailnet forum for your excellent advice.  Happy Sailing!


I have been speaking with a full-time liveaboard cruiser in the Caribbean who has been using a home made composting toilet for the last year or more. He told me that he is 100% satisfied.

Based on that, and the other info that we have read, we ordered a natures head for ourselves yesterday. We will be living aboard as soon as we get the boat back in the water next month and will be leaving for extended cruising later this year. I'm pretty confident that this will work for us just fine.

Mike


----------



## Orionsue

mikeandrebecca said:


> I have been speaking with a full-time liveaboard cruiser in the Caribbean who has been using a home made composting toilet for the last year or more. He told me that he is 100% satisfied.
> 
> Based on that, and the other info that we have read, we ordered a natures head for ourselves yesterday. We will be living aboard as soon as we get the boat back in the water next month and will be leaving for extended cruising later this year. I'm pretty confident that this will work for us just fine.
> 
> Mike


That's great Mike. I'll be anxious to hear how you fare. Believe me, I really would like this to work, but for now I am just not convinced it does for full time cruisers. And I don't want to spend 850 bucks to find out that it's not what we thought it would be.  We'll be full time cruisers next year (God willing,of course), so we could still decide to install a composting toilet in the other head if we want to. I hope that you will be so kind and give us interim reports on how things are working out for you with the composting head on a full-time cruiser basis. Looking forward to it.  Thanks and happy sailing.
Sue...S/V Orion


----------



## mikeandrebecca

We finally got the head installed. Some pics and comments on the job can be found here:

We make such a good team! | Zero to Cruising!

We are still on the hard in the marina so have not put it to use yet. Details will be added to our blog when we get to that point.

Mike


----------



## josrulz

mikeandrebecca said:


> We finally got the head installed. Some pics and comments on the job can be found here:
> 
> We make such a good team! | Zero to Cruising!
> 
> We are still on the hard in the marina so have not put it to use yet. Details will be added to our blog when we get to that point.
> 
> Mike


Hey Mike - I have a question about you using the original holding tank vent. What is the location of that vent? Is it on the side of the hull? It looks like you have a catamaran, so perhaps it's not an issue, but on our monohull, I'm concerned about water coming _in the vent_ from the outside, and getting the airhead chamber wet. Just wondering where you vent is, and how you're dealing with it.
Thanks!
-J


----------



## sailingdog

The vent for a holding tank is far too small for a composting head. You need a much larger vent for a composting head. The holding tank line is usually 5/8" or 1", the vent for a composting head needs to be more like 4".


----------



## mikeandrebecca

You may be right. It "might" not work.

The vent hole is on the side, but quite high up under the tramp.

The water thing is something I have thought about. Before doing this I emailed the supplier and even sent him a pic of the hole. This was his reply:

"If the vent hose is high enough from WLine that should be fine, the fan is a small one, it does not need a big hole."

If this doesn't work out we'll change it. I am trying to see if I can get away without putting any more holes in the boat. 

Mike


----------



## josrulz

sailingdog said:


> The vent for a holding tank is far too small for a composting head. You need a much larger vent for a composting head. The holding tank line is usually 5/8" or 1", the vent for a composting head needs to be more like 4".


SD, you might be right, but I know an owner who has an Airhead and it's installed with the vent using the original vent for the holding tank. He hasn't had problems, but his configuration is such that water intrusion is unlikely. His head is aft, etc. But the size of the hole has not been a problem, and they are full-time cruisers. So totally not my own experience--just relaying what I've been told by an acquaintance with the Airhead.


----------



## RonRelyea

*Holding Tank vent for composter*

Mike ... sounds like something I may want to try ... where/how are you mounting your fan?

Ron



mikeandrebecca said:


> You may be right. It "might" not work.
> 
> The vent hole is on the side, but quite high up under the tramp.
> 
> The water thing is something I have thought about. Before doing this I emailed the supplier and even sent him a pic of the hole. This was his reply:
> 
> "If the vent hose is high enough from WLine that should be fine, the fan is a small one, it does not need a big hole."
> 
> If this doesn't work out we'll change it. I am trying to see if I can get away without putting any more holes in the boat.
> 
> Mike


----------



## mikeandrebecca

The fan is integral to the head. It is right where the hose enters the head in this pic:










If you look closely you will also see a small grey wire exiting the same area. That is the power for the fan.

Actually, it looks just like the small box on the side of the head in this pic:










The fan on the nature's head can be swapped to either side.

Mike


----------



## Skipper Joe

We are very happy with our decision to buy a Nature's head. We are full time liveaboards. We partially empty every 2 weeks or so, then add more dry Coco Peat. The pee jug every 3 days. Vinegar cleans it well and fast. We used to walk/run to the marina head. No more! Joy! No smells. It smelled at first until we figured out what were were doing. But, not anymore.

Happy


----------



## Zingaro

FWIW This is the review from the person I am considering buying a boat from and the catalyst for my search for info on the comp heads. The owners lived aboard and cruised from the Pac NW to New Zealand the past two years.



> A U.S. Coast Guard approved Nature's Head composting toilet is installed in the forward head complete with a 12-volt ventilation fan and mushroom-capped deck vent. Also included, but not installed, is a Vetus flexible waste water tank for grey and black water, a Jabsco diverter valve, and Jabsco diaphragm waste pump for future installation of a traditional marine head. The composting toilet required a lot of maintenance, however, and we recommend the new owner install a conventional marine head with holding bladder


I am forwarding this thread to him in the hopes he will share his experiences with us.

To be honest it is the urine and not the feces that seems to be the major PITA. What if you forget one day and overfill the bottle? Seems like little chance of not spilling the excess when trying to disconnect. I'll admit less than a backup of a lesser system. Can you VERY Easily see the fluid level when you walk into the head?


----------



## copacabana

I'd be curious to hear exactly what the person meant by 'The composting toilet required a lot of 'maintenance". Could you elaborate a bit?

I'm just about to order a Nature's Head for my boat because of its simplicity and lack of maintenance. I can't wait to chuck the manual head, hoses, valves and pumps overboard, not to mention permanently removing a through-hull and filling the hole in the hull.


----------



## remetau

I’m glad this thread popped up, because we had been looking into a composting head, although the cost for a plastic bucket seems ridiculous to me. I was trying to figure out how they maintained the head while using it all the time. For a live-aboard, you don’t have a lot of time to keep it composting while not adding more to it so there is always “fresh” stuff in there that you don’t want to throw out. So how do you partially empty the bucket?


----------



## RonRelyea

*I just bought one ....*

took the plunge ... it was a choice of replacing a undersized, leaking, smelly holding tank in the original location, or having a custom tank made and having it slosh around under my aft berth, or composting.

I'll be venting through my existing (smaller) old holding tank vent. We'll see how that goes. I bought a Nicro day/night which I will use only for providing power to the vent fan built into the head. Therefore, at this point I won't even need to cut a hole in my deck. I'll put the nicro in the existing hole in my forward hatch where there is a non-functioning solar vent, and run the wires back to the head (hmmm .. do I need to worry about voltage drop of low amperage 12 volts going through 20 feet of wire?)

I'll keep the forum posted as I go through the season!

P.S. be prepared to get a ration of razzing from most all the other boaters around you!


----------



## bellefonte

I am convinced that the razzing comes from a position of ignorance. People just dont know what is possible. They think that dumping your "waste" into water is a "sanitary" way of dealing with it. Obviously, it is not. All you need do, is experince a failing traditional head system to know this is true.
Yes, composting is a very different approach and may require the owner to do things a traditional head would not need, like emptying the urine catch more often and carrying peat moss onboard. 
But the benefits. Just ask anyone who has made the change. There is no comparison, by my assessment.


----------



## RXBOT

First Im in favour of composting heads. But if u-r liveaboard or extended cruiser and only have one head how does it get to be fully composted. Where and how do you dispose of partially composted material. Inshore put in garbage bag and then into public garbagecan? Offshore dump directly into ocean? You could make an airhead out of a couple of 5 gallon pails and a toilet seat,just not as pretty. Say you had 2 heads and could let one go the full distance. Where do you dispose of the compost?


----------



## remetau

RXBOT said:


> First Im in favour of composting heads. But if u-r liveaboard or extended cruiser and only have one head how does it get to be fully composted. Where and how do you dispose of partially composted material. Inshore put in garbage bag and then into public garbagecan? Offshore dump directly into ocean? You could make an airhead out of a couple of 5 gallon pails and a toilet seat,just not as pretty. Say you had 2 heads and could let one go the full distance. Where do you dispose of the compost?


I'd like to know these things too.

Does anybody actually put their compost into a plastic bag to dispose of? Doesn't this defeat the whole purpose of the compost?


----------



## 4arch

remetau said:


> Doesn't this defeat the whole purpose of the compost?


To a degree, but not being able to fully compost doesn't diminish the major advantage of composting toilets over holding tank heads and porta potties - keeping liquid and solid separate.


----------



## remetau

4arch said:


> To a degree, but not being able to fully compost doesn't diminish the major advantage of composting toilets over holding tank heads and porta potties - keeping liquid and solid separate.


I meant the process of putting it into a plastic bag.


----------



## 4arch

Once the plastic bag is sealed shut there won't be any further composting going on until the contents were exposed to air again. 

For this reason, I would only use the plastic bags to transfer the waste from head to shore and not for storage aboard (though some have had luck storing waste aboard in sealed plastic buckets). The composting toilet's solids container can also be lined with a plastic bag to make the transfer process easier. 

Ideally the waste would always be transferred to a shoreside compost bin to finish breaking down. The reality though, especially when cruising, is that it's quite difficult to do that. Perhaps eventually composting toilets or just general composting will gain enough penetration that every marina and dinghy dock will have a compost bin, but until that happens the only alternative in a lot of situations is just to bag up the solid waste and chuck it in the garbage.


----------



## bellefonte

Sun-Mar has a finishing drawer that allows you to remove fully composted material without dealing with the patially composted material. 
for your reading pleasure:
SUN-MAR. The Environmental Solution


----------



## RXBOT

leave compost in finishing drawer for 3-4 weeks 

That doesn' seem practical for a live aboard couple.


----------



## remetau

RXBOT said:


> leave compost in finishing drawer for 3-4 weeks
> 
> That doesn' seem practical for a live aboard couple.


I agree. This kind of post lets me be frank about this; I have one to two bowel movements a day. If it is time to empty my "bucket", what about all the waste that hasn't decomposed yet? I don't want to put it into a plastic bag, because to me that defeats the purpose and puts another damn bag onto my beautiful green earth.

So how do people that live-aboard deal with the partially composted material?


----------



## Skipper Joe

We liveaboard. We partially empty ours every two weeks into a biobag and toss it in the garbage. The remainder starts "cooking" the new stuff. If we had one of them weirdo land housey things, we'd start a composting pile. As it is, I don't feel too bad about 3 gallons in a bag that will biodegrade and let our #2 combine with all the diapers and banana peels and rotting carcasses leftover from the weekends BBQ. And if we ever get our old boat 3 miles offshore, bloop!

If you are tired of the stench of old hoses and the extra hole in the boat, and the nasty nasty holding tanks, get one. It rocks.


----------



## remetau

GilStump said:


> We liveaboard. We partially empty ours every two weeks into a biobag and toss it in the garbage. The remainder starts "cooking" the new stuff. If we had one of them weirdo land housey things, we'd start a composting pile. As it is, I don't feel too bad about 3 gallons in a bag that will biodegrade and let our #2 combine with all the diapers and banana peels and rotting carcasses leftover from the weekends BBQ. And if we ever get our old boat 3 miles offshore, bloop!
> 
> If you are tired of the stench of old hoses and the extra hole in the boat, and the nasty nasty holding tanks, get one. It rocks.


I probably will get one eventually. I'm just trying to figure it all out and justify the cost of a plastic bucket with a toilet seat on it.


----------



## bellefonte

*why is that?*



RXBOT said:


> leave compost in finishing drawer for 3-4 weeks
> 
> That doesn' seem practical for a live aboard couple.


Would you need to empty the finishing drawer more often than the manufacturer recommends? 
If so, why?
Of anyone that has installed one, I have not heard that this is an issue.


----------



## hellosailor

The US EPA has a PDF file online about composting toilets. No pun intended, but the "bottom line" is that most of what are being sold as composting toilets for boats? Aren't.

The EPA recognizes two kinds of composting toilets. One, where the waste gradually fills a bin so that what you are removing is typically a year old, as it progresses down from the toilet. After a year in the proper conditions, it has composted and is no longer hazardous sanitary waste.

The other, requiring AT LEAST TWO BINS or composting units. You use one, the either swap it out or move ot the other, and ALLOW THE FIRST BIN TO COMPOST for at least a full month. Longer depending on conditions.

So...composting toilet for boats? Unless you have two of them, or two bins and space to swap them out, it is nothing more than a cedar bucket with aspirations to be something more. And what comes out of it, is still "sanitary waste" that requires the appropriate permit and special handling to be disposed of, or buried, ashore.

I know, waste is waste and a "dry head" may still be more convenient than a holding tank full of wet waste. But as far as I can see--the things being sold as composting toilets, for single installation on boats, just aren't going to generate any kind of sterile safe compost. 

Of course, they're way easier to find than plain old cedar buckets.


----------



## bellefonte

perhaps the old traditional holding tank is replaced with a "holding bin" (also vented) that partially composted peat and waste is moved to until it composts fully. 
Just a thought. 
If it can be done late enough in the process, its shouldnt be too hard to manage. Still preferable to a wet storage I would think.


----------



## hellosailor

Replace it with two holding bins, each with a liquid separator, and you've got a valid composting system. Just remember--each bin needs to have temperature and ventilation and liquid separation managed, and be large enough to hold all your waste for somewhere between one and three months to allow that compost time to ripen.

I'll go with a holding tank, and peeing in a urinal. (Ladies, turn away. Sometimes men use the sink.)


----------



## blackjenner

hellosailor said:


> The US EPA has a PDF file online about composting toilets. No pun intended, but the "bottom line" is that most of what are being sold as composting toilets for boats? Aren't.
> 
> The EPA recognizes two kinds of composting toilets. One, where the waste gradually fills a bin so that what you are removing is typically a year old, as it progresses down from the toilet. After a year in the proper conditions, it has composted and is no longer hazardous sanitary waste.
> 
> The other, requiring AT LEAST TWO BINS or composting units. You use one, the either swap it out or move ot the other, and ALLOW THE FIRST BIN TO COMPOST for at least a full month. Longer depending on conditions.
> 
> So...composting toilet for boats? Unless you have two of them, or two bins and space to swap them out, it is nothing more than a cedar bucket with aspirations to be something more. And what comes out of it, is still "sanitary waste" that requires the appropriate permit and special handling to be disposed of, or buried, ashore.
> 
> I know, waste is waste and a "dry head" may still be more convenient than a holding tank full of wet waste. But as far as I can see--the things being sold as composting toilets, for single installation on boats, just aren't going to generate any kind of sterile safe compost.
> 
> Of course, they're way easier to find than plain old cedar buckets.


Do you have a link to that PDF? It would be very useful.


----------



## LandLocked66c

So now that summer is underway and approaching Sept. What's the word on the composting toilets? Stinky or better than sliced bread?


----------



## RonRelyea

*non-stinky*

Chronology:
- installed Nature's Head in spring
- used by two guys for two weeks continuously
- used by me weekends thereafter
- I neglected to put a screen on the vent hose and got a fruit fly infestation
- emptied and cleaned the solids bin (it sat unused for two weeks prior) smelled like potting soil ... put the compost in my compost pile at home
- if I didn't get the fruit flies, I would still not need to empty it
- I basically live at the Marina most weekends - definitely don't miss the pump-outs!
- would definitely do it again!


----------



## josrulz

RonRelyea said:


> Chronology:
> - installed Nature's Head in spring
> - used by two guys for two weeks continuously
> - used by me weekends thereafter
> - I neglected to put a screen on the vent hose and got a fruit fly infestation
> - emptied and cleaned the solids bin (it sat unused for two weeks prior) smelled like potting soil ... put the compost in my compost pile at home
> - if I didn't get the fruit flies, I would still not need to empty it
> - I basically live at the Marina most weekends - definitely don't miss the pump-outs!
> - would definitely do it again!


So did you end up using your existing vent hose outlet for the holding tank as planned? If you don't mind me asking, where is that vent, and where is your head in relation? We're very interested in installing a composted head this winter, but I'm still trying to work out the logistics of how we would install our nicro vent or use the existing vent line, so I'm very interested in how others have done the project.

Thanks!
-J


----------



## RonRelyea

*Composting Head vent*

J

I originally vented the head through the old holding tank vent but found that to be too restrictive. Now I've got it vented through the holding tank deck pump-out fitting. I dremeled out the center of the fitting's cap and hot-glued screen onto it. I get a small amount of rain water through the screen and down the hose which is easy to deal with. I use the built in fan on the Nature's Head.

Total run for the vent hose is about 10 feet ... I'll get pictures next time I'm down to the boat.


----------



## MSter

We were on the fence and decided to go with the AirHead model as a result of a few design considerations. It seemed NaturesHead requires the removal of the seat unit to empty the liquid tank, whereas the AirHead liquid tank is easily accessible. In addition, the AirHead seat is more of a residential size and is much more comfortable than our previous marine head.

We have had this unit approximately 3 months, and I must admit I was very skeptical. This unit, so far, has proved itself a good buy. We have not had a single issue nor have we had to dump the solid tank as of yet with moderate use. The liquid tank must be dumped about every 2-3 days for the wife and I...and could go longer if I wasnt too lazy to go topside. 

As for installation, I plumbed the vent to a Day/Night Nicro solar powered vent and currently do not see the need to install the 12v fan. To summarize, this has been a great purchase. There is a matter "getting used to it" but that seems to be a more than fair trade off to pump outs, clogs and rebuilds.


----------



## hellosailor

BlackJ, if you're still looking www.epa.gov/owmitnet/mtb/comp.pdf is the URL.


----------



## josrulz

RonRelyea said:


> J
> 
> I originally vented the head through the old holding tank vent but found that to be too restrictive. Now I've got it vented through the holding tank deck pump-out fitting. I dremeled out the center of the fitting's cap and hot-glued screen onto it. I get a small amount of rain water through the screen and down the hose which is easy to deal with. I use the built in fan on the Nature's Head.
> 
> Total run for the vent hose is about 10 feet ... I'll get pictures next time I'm down to the boat.


Quick question--what is the location of your head? Forward? Aft? Other?

Thanks again for the info, RonRelyea, it would be great to see some pictures if it's convenient.

Best,
J


----------



## josrulz

MSter said:


> ...As for installation, I plumbed the vent to a Day/Night Nicro solar powered vent and currently do not see the need to install the 12v fan. To summarize, this has been a great purchase. There is a matter "getting used to it" but that seems to be a more than fair trade off to pump outs, clogs and rebuilds.


MSter, thanks for the info as well. I'm also interested in your installation. Is your head forward or aft (or somewhere other than that)? Where did you end up mounting the vent?

I'm just information gathering, so we have the best chance at a working install.
Thanks!
-J


----------



## RonRelyea

*Installation*

J ... here's my floor plan .... pix to follow


----------



## josrulz

RonRelyea said:


> J ... here's my floor plan .... pix to follow


Ahhh, aft head I see. Our head is forward, just aft of the V-berth, so the toilet would be facing athwartships as opposed to fore and aft. So that's a concern (no using it while on port tack). I'm having a hard time figuring out where we want to run our vent line, since the cabin top (quite curved) would be the best location, and it's near the mast where one works on sails, etc.

I know we can make it work, just not sure exactly how yet. 
-J


----------



## rebelheart

Just wanted to say that after doing a bunch of research and combing through this thread, my wife and I (full time liveaboards on our current boat for three years) are going to take the plunge and get a composting head.

We have a Lavac right now which it seems is the best of the "wet" systems. It's been incredibly reliable, but I can already feel the reduced flow as the lines are getting clogged up again, and there's a small hole in the top of the holding tank that's letting vapors out on occasion.

Had to close the deal on either redoing the plumbing and getting a new holding tank, or going down a different road completely. I absolutely will chine in with all my feedback.


----------



## remetau

rebelheart said:


> Just wanted to say that after doing a bunch of research and combing through this thread, my wife and I (full time liveaboards on our current boat for three years) are going to take the plunge and get a composting head.
> 
> We have a Lavac right now which it seems is the best of the "wet" systems. It's been incredibly reliable, but I can already feel the reduced flow as the lines are getting clogged up again, and there's a small hole in the top of the holding tank that's letting vapors out on occasion.
> 
> Had to close the deal on either redoing the plumbing and getting a new holding tank, or going down a different road completely. I absolutely will chine in with all my feedback.


Since you liveaboard full time, let me know what you do with the uncomposted material.


----------



## rebelheart

remetau said:


> Since you liveaboard full time, let me know what you do with the uncomposted material.


Will do. From what I'm hearing, we're expecting "80 sanitary uses" out of the system, which I figure is somewhere in the ~1.5-2 month range for two people.

My rationale, for what it's worth:

I'm not expecting it to be a wonderful experience, but neither is changing out head plumbing and knocking deposits clean from the fittings. I'm fine with a slightly gross job once ever 60-90 days compared to an excruciatingly gross and painful job every 2-3 years.

I also have a new daughter who would never be able to flush a marine toilet for years (arm strength), and will certainly drop all kinds of things in that should never go into a marine toilet, increasing the frequency by which I'll need to clear it out.

I'm trading a bag of problems for another bag of problems, but having lived with wet systems for ~8 years, I'm ready for a new bag. I can always go back if it gets that bad; no one's chopping off his/her arm.


----------



## josrulz

rebelheart said:


> Just wanted to say that after doing a bunch of research and combing through this thread, my wife and I (full time liveaboards on our current boat for three years) are going to take the plunge and get a composting head...


We will certainly be interested in hearing about your installation, rebelheart. Please provide updates down the road.
Cheers,
J


----------



## MSter

The head on DII is located to starboard just behind the V-berth. There is a riser where the original marine head was installed. This does increase the height of the new head but is manageable for the wife.

As for the vent, I installed a 3" Nicro Day/Night vent about 12" behind the forward hatch and routed the vent hose up the inside corner of the head. The new footprint is larger than the original head so I had to slightly turn it so it does not face directly aft.

I also ordered two liquid tanks. One is plumbed and can be connected to the original holding tank, while the other is not and is manually emptied. My thoughts for the plumbed tank was to be able to divert liquid-only waste to the holding tank via a foot pump for extended time between dumps if needed <pun intended>.

As the unit is waterless, we keep a diluted spray bottle of vinegar to rinse the bowl after use as it neutralizes any liquid waste odor. Other than a periodic wipe down and the occasional addition of peat, this unit has proven to be worry free....


----------



## RonRelyea

*"Slightly gross job"*



rebelheart said:


> Will do. From what I'm hearing, we're expecting "80 sanitary uses" out of the system, which I figure is somewhere in the ~1.5-2 month range for two people.
> 
> My rationale, for what it's worth:
> 
> I'm not expecting it to be a wonderful experience, but neither is changing out head plumbing and knocking deposits clean from the fittings. I'm fine with a slightly gross job once ever 60-90 days compared to an excruciatingly gross and painful job every 2-3 years.
> 
> I also have a new daughter who would never be able to flush a marine toilet for years (arm strength), and will certainly drop all kinds of things in that should never go into a marine toilet, increasing the frequency by which I'll need to clear it out.
> 
> I'm trading a bag of problems for another bag of problems, but having lived with wet systems for ~8 years, I'm ready for a new bag. I can always go back if it gets that bad; no one's chopping off his/her arm.


Reb ... it doesn't have to be even "slightly" gross. If you want the "deluxe" setup, get an extra bottom to the unit and rig it up with the air vent.Set it aside when filled let it compost for another couple of months = DIRT!! Not gross at all.

With only a single unit: I just emptied mine for the first time a few weeks ago.
It had about - shall we say - 35 man/days of deposits. It sat for two weeks idle before I emptied ... absolutely NOT GROSS ... smelled like damp soil even though it's not truly composted enough.

I still do a nose-check on mine once in a while ... open the trap door and take a whiff ... even as close as an hour after a depsoit and I still smell nothing.

An Old Salt down the docks from me goes so far as putting his TP into a ziplock bag instead of the head. Don't know if this method is for everyone, but the TP degrades slower in the head than other deposits ... and TP is a good percentage of the volume of stuff considering the other "stuff" is a good percentage water ....


----------



## 4arch

After much detailed measuring of my head compartment, I've come to the disappointing conclusion that there's no way the Nature's Head would fit comfortably. The Air Head is even worse as would be any self-built solution I could make with an Ecovita Privy Kit. 

The problem is that the side of the head compartment steps up about 9" to a flat platform on which the existing traditional head sits and then follows the slope of the hull up behind that. That works well with the existing toilet that's bowl shaped and only 13" high (putting the seat at a still high but manageable 22" above the floor). To accommodate the Nature's Head, the unit would stick farther out into the compartment and would put the top of the seat at an uncomfortable 30" above the floor! I could use a stool, but with less than 6 feet of headroom in the head, that's not a very realistic solution.

Seeing how many boats have stepped and/or sloped toilet platforms, I'm surprised the marine composting toilet makers have not done more to address both the bulk and the height of their products. It might be time to introduce "lite" versions that trade off some solid waste capacity for a smaller footprint.


----------



## arf145

4arch said:


> Seeing how many boats have stepped and/or sloped toilet platforms, I'm surprised the marine composting toilet makers have not done more to address both the bulk and the height of their products. It might be time to introduce "lite" versions that trade off some solid waste capacity for a smaller footprint.


Same issue that stopped me. The height of the Airhead pushed the user's head and neck into a protruding bulkhead that was out of play with a regular marine toilet. Would love to see a "squatter"  version.


----------



## 4arch

The Nature's Head and the Air Head will both be at the Annapolis Boat Show. I think I am going to voice my concerns and see what kind of feedback I get. Surely the companies must be aware of the issue.


----------



## cmendoza

genieskip said:


> ...So this is what my experience has been after one season. I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but if asked if I would do it again on my next boat (if there is a next boat), I would say yes.


Just a quick note to say "Thank you!" for a great post.

Carlos & Maria
S/V Rocinante


----------



## ArmyChief

4arch said:


> The Nature's Head and the Air Head will both be at the Annapolis Boat Show. I think I am going to voice my concerns and see what kind of feedback I get. Surely the companies must be aware of the issue.


Any feedback on the "squatter version"?


----------



## genieskip

cmendoza said:


> Just a quick note to say "Thank you!" for a great post.
> 
> Carlos & Maria
> S/V Rocinante


Glad to help. Going into my third season with the AirHead and still loving it. Beats the plumbing version in just about every way. Yes, it is a bit high and when I sit I sometimes feel like I'm back in kindergarten and my feet didn't reach the floor, but I can put up with that.


----------



## genieskip

JohnRPollard said:


> Genieskip,
> 
> Thank you very much for taking the time to "compose" that outstanding write-up. That is hands down the most informative piece I've ever read on composting toilets. I'm sure anyone considering one of these units will find this very helpful.
> 
> Interesting pros and cons. I'm someone that has never had any real issues with conventional marine toilets (except holding tank capacity with our family 0f 5 ), so I tend to view composting toilets as a solution in search of a problem. When it comes to bathroom functions, I prefer the "fire-and-forget" approach, whereas the composters seem to require a "man-in-the-loop". Reminds me too much of changing diapers. Been there, don't ever want to go back.
> 
> But I'm sure one burst holding tank could convert me...


Well, John, that's the way way I felt about diapers till I became a granddad a couple of months ago and now all I can say is - been there, and glad to be back!


----------



## CrazyRu

My first season with the NatureHead. I love the thing so far. I keep the boat on a mooring, aligned with wind. I didn't connect electric fan, but I put small air intake (shell type) and routed it into toilet. No odor at all, my boat finally smells fresh. Albeit usage is light, weekends only. The thing is high, throne like, but I got used to it.
I just wonder how often new users open the trap door, put their face next to it, sniff it and smile? I do it regularly


----------



## 4arch

ArmyChief said:


> Any feedback on the "squatter version"?


I talked to the owner of Nature's Head at the show and he said he is aware of the issue of the unit being a tight fit with smaller boats and boats that have riser platforms. He said they've considered making a shorter version but would only be able to reduce the height by 2-3 inches. He seemed receptive to my feedback and it sounds like if more people request a shorter unit they may actually start making one. I'd encourage anyone who wants a shorter unit to contact Nature's Head directly and let them know.


----------



## ArmyChief

Thanks 4arch


----------



## josrulz

We bit the bullet today at the boat show and ordered an Airhead. Nature's Head was not an option due to various configuration issues. So the Airhead is our choice.

We're at that point where we need to rebuild our current toilet (and since it's an old, cheap toilet that really means replacing it) and replace all the hoses. If we're going to do that, well, we're going to try something new. I'll let you know how it turns out when we install over the winter.
-J


----------



## PTsailing

we built our own dry composting head, so we could make it the correct size to fit our space. It was also much less expensive. We used the Seperatt privy kit from Eco Vita Ecovita Privy Kit
we replaced the styrofoam seat with a real toilet seat and used rubber gasket material to make it air tight. We live aboard (on our tug not the SJ28) and have had no issues with the toilet, it works great, no smell and easy to maintain.


----------



## josrulz

PTsailing said:


> we built our own dry composting head, so we could make it the correct size to fit our space. It was also much less expensive. We used the Seperatt privy kit from Eco Vita Ecovita Privy Kit
> we replaced the styrofoam seat with a real toilet seat and used rubber gasket material to make it air tight. We live aboard (on our tug not the SJ28) and have had no issues with the toilet, it works great, no smell and easy to maintain.


Do you by any chance have any pictures of the install? It would be interesting to see another approach. Thanks!
-J


----------



## PTsailing

Basically we just built a wooden box and used containers that would fit the height we needed. Most people use a bucket (like the kind you get at home depot with the lid) but that made our unit too tall, so we ended up using a stainless steel pot from a restaurant supply store and a small plastic kitty litter container jug. I don't have any photos hosted online, I don't like the free photo hosting sites, so sorry, no photos.


----------



## RonRelyea

*How many gallons of pink stuff do I need?*

to winterize my Nature's Head?????

JUST KIDDING!!!!!


----------



## annestewart

*composting poll*



knothead said:


> Would it be possible to run a poll asking how members feel about composting heads?
> I get the impression that a whole lot of people are grossed out about the idea and it might be informative to get a real picture of people's attitudes... poll?


Let's do a poll! I'm in and can't wait to change out our current system. Does everyone know about the book _Humanure_? very valuable information.

All we need now are willing thermophillic composting facilities up and down every coast-line waiting for our valuable bucket contents!!! Maybe there will be a composting facility section in the various cruiser guides or this web-sites?


----------



## Skipper Joe

*Pee Smell*

We use tea tree oil. A drop in the empty pee jar. and a drop in the squirt bottle for rinsing. fffresssh. Our composter is the best money we have spent so far.


----------



## knothead

GilStump said:


> We use tea tree oil. A drop in the empty pee jar. and a drop in the squirt bottle for rinsing. fffresssh. Our composter is the best money we have spent so far.


Thanks Gil, I've never heard of the stuff. Where do you get it?
How often do you empty the receptacle now? I find that I have to empty mine just about every day when it's still less than half full. It would be nice to be able to get a couple of days out of it.


----------



## josrulz

knothead said:


> Where do you get it?


We haven't used it as Gil suggests, but I believe you can pick up tea tree oil at many drug stores, like CVS or similar. Or you can order from Amazon.


----------



## hellosailor

Many drugstores, eBay, but most commonly at beautician/hair supply stores. It is used for fingernail fungul infections and frequently cures those. (Don't tell the FDA.) Concentrated & up close, it smells something like turpentine.


----------



## knothead

*Cheaper alternative to Airhead and Nature's head*

I just learned about this company today.

The C-Head

Index

It's good to see the price of these things dropping somewhat. 
The ad in Southwinds says they start at $399.00 so that makes them about half the price of the others. 
I don't know anything about them except what I've read on their website but they look pretty nice and it's good to see some competition.


----------



## elgo

I like the idea and have been thinking of putting one in my Pearson 422. Thanks for the info.


----------



## Cal28

knothead said:


> I just learned about this company today.
> 
> The C-Head


Bought one a week ago ... have been studying it for several months ... looks like it will work very well for our situation and having some modifications made so that it will be installed on the Cal 28 ... but also be able to be transferred and used on the Ranger 23

Should have it delivered in about 2=3 weeks ... will do a write-up on installation and evaluation when it is complete ...


----------



## arf145

Hey, just saw this. That's a good find, Knothead! Looking forward to your report, Cal28.


----------



## ekin

Knothead, 
The pictures you posted about your DIY composting toilet can't be seen now, is there a web page where I can see them? I am thinking of building a similar CT, they would be very useful.


----------



## knothead

ekin said:


> Knothead,
> The pictures you posted about your DIY composting toilet can't be seen now, is there a web page where I can see them? I am thinking of building a similar CT, they would be very useful.


I'll upload some of them again. I've took way too many pictures of the project so if you want to see more detail just let me know.

https://picasaweb.google.com/106139921218378669457/CompostingHead


----------



## alanr77

Wow that was a long read, I have been watching various forums for some time now regarding composting heads. Having ripped out the entire head holding and plumbing system from my boat a year ago, and having to deal with a nice infection in my knee resulting from the 36 y/o black water that came out of the hoses and covered everything, I am hesitant to put this stuff back in. I have yet to go down and measure my available space to see if one of these heads will fit but I am 90% sold on the idea. I spend most of my time on the boat and may end up as a full time liveaboard in the near future. I have found the marina bathroom to be fine, though when lazy I have used a soda bottle for number 1. The composting head, even when aboard 24/7, would not get used everyday for number 2. The collection bottle is easy to empty it seems and does not seem like it would be an issue. So, living aboard, I would use the marina bathroom, bathrooms at the college or where ever else I find myself most of the time. Then either in emergencies or when I was lazy and on board I would use the composting head. 80 use capacity for one man using it a few times a week....I would think this would compost just fine and when I did have to empty it, it would in fact be dirt. It seems some of the concern regarding liveaboards is the capacity and frequency of use. Do you sit in your boat all day everyday crapping throughout the day? I know I dont. I use the bathroom in my house at the most once a day. Often less. Cruisers would not have to worry about this at all as they could empty offshore whenever needed. 

In addition, I would like to thank all the posters for taking the time to give me real time feedback on this item. This thing seems to be a winner and if it will fit, I may just get one. No way would it fit in the C22 but maybe in the C30.

The C-head does seem remarkably similar and for half the price. Though the capacity if far less and it seems to be less of a composting head and more of a initial composting storage unit- with the idea that you will dump it often into a proper compost heap.


----------



## hellosailor

Alan-
"when I did have to empty it, it would in fact be dirt."
Check what the EPA and others have to say about composting and composting toilets. In order for the contents to be dirt (sterile) you'd have to wait about two months between your last use of the toilet, and the time you emptied it.

Among the problems you can have with human feces is clostridium difficile (c. diff.) a very nasty bug that many of us carry in our colons without any problem. But when the balance of bugs in the colon gets disturbed (i.e. by anitibiotics in the hospital) this bug can become a killer, and in fact there's a drug-resistant form that has hospitals quite scared. C.diff. can form spores that survive outside the body and spread infection very nicely from casual contact, and no, even conventional bleach or alcohol won't kill them.

So, holding tank or bucket of nightsoil, either way it isn't sterile and it isn't "compost" until it has aged sufficiently. Without any new contributions. Just don't drop that bucket while you're on the launch.

OTOH there's the "incinolet", a combination toilet and incinerator. used on commercial fishing boats, it runs the contents into nice sterile ashes. Not sure I'd want to put my butt on something that can do that though. (G)


----------



## alanr77

Agreed on the idea of it being safe to handle. I would not handle it at all, any more than I handle the stuff in a sewer anyway. By "dirt" I meant in consistancy. The holding tank system in my C-30 sent me to the hospital by ambulance twice. Apparently, when I ripped the old system out to throw it away, the black water splashed everywhere. I washed the boat with bleach twice but I had a small bump on my knee that took on a wicked infection. We are talking septic with a high fever. I was kinda scared for my life...that kind of infection. So to me, the idea of EVER putting a wet system in my boat again is quite crazy. 36 year old liquified crap is nothing to play with. The idea of a contained process that does not have sewer lines running throughout my boat is very appealing. In addition, the C-30 actually has a lot of storage space, you just have to find it. The original holding tank area is quite large and I have gained that space. If the composting toliet fits, does not stink and is as simple as described, I can't seem to find an issue with it....


----------



## MedSailor

hellosailor said:


> Alan-
> 
> Among the problems you can have with human feces is clostridium difficile (c. diff.) a very nasty bug that many of us carry in our colons without any problem. But when the balance of bugs in the colon gets disturbed (i.e. by anitibiotics in the hospital) this bug can become a killer, and in fact there's a drug-resistant form that has hospitals quite scared. C.diff. can form spores that survive outside the body and spread infection very nicely from casual contact, and no, even conventional bleach or alcohol won't kill them.
> (G)


Hellosailor,

I hope if you don't mind me chiming in with the "Med" part of "Medsailor, with a few corrections.

Yes, C-diff is bad and it's on my short list of things that you don't want to get. However you are HIGHLY UNLIKELY to get c-diff by being exposed to the spores unless you are CURRENTLY ON ANTIBIOTICS.

It's gross to contemplate but many, many, of the sicknesses out there are only contracted from the "oral fecal route". (Yes, it is what it sounds like). Lets face it, people aren't clean, and when you wipe yourself, or change a diaper, there might be poo on your hand, then if you don't wash adequately and you make a sandwich for your friend, voila! oral fecal transmission of whatever it is that you have. Most of the time, you don't have anything to transmit, so no harm done.

So easy to transmit and yet there isn't an epidemic of C-diff EXCEPT in the hospitals. The reason for that is that everyone in the hospital is on antibiotics, so they are more open to the infection. Bottom line, feel free to jump into the pail of poo and roll around with the reckless abandon of a dog without fear of C-diff unless you are currently taking antibiotics. If you are currently taking antibiotics, just to be on the safe side, don't roll in the poo.

Your original premise, that it isn't just dirt, I totally agree with. Unless it's been composed at a high temperature, (which it won't in these units) it should be treated as poo, not dirt, no more or less dangerous. Gloves, and lots of washing afterwards.

Also chlorine DOES kill C-diff and C-diff spores even down to 1:10 concentration of household bleach. You were right about the alcohol hand sanitizer though, it doesn't kill the spores, though I have a personal theory about alcohol killing it in your gut if the moonshine is strong enough. ;-)

MedSailor

P.S. Still love the Nature's Head composting toilet on my boat. Not perfect, but WAY better than marine heads. 2 of us lived aboard with it as our only toilet for 4 years or so. We found that the coconut coir works better for us and is much easier to carry a supply of than peat moss.


----------



## hellosailor

" If the composting toliet fits, does not stink and is as simple as described, I can't seem to find an issue with it.... "
I fully agree with you. My only beef is that there are no composting toilets for small craft. In order to actually compost the waste, they'd have to hold it with no new deposits for 2-3 months. They aren't compsting toilets, they are "compost starters" and the process has to be finished elsewhere, and the septic waste transported eleswhere for that to happen. 
That may be cleaner, neater, easier to contain, but it still ain't compost when you have to transport it. It's sewage. Oddly enough, none of the makers are really up front about that.
Put two on board, alternate between the two for 90 day periods, and _then _you've got real compost being taken away from the one that was last unused for 90 days. That works, if you've got the room.

When I have to do headwork, it is with a tyvek coverall, gloves, bleach, paper towels, a "clean side" helper, and everything goes in the garbage bag to be disposed of as contaminated. Paranoid overkill, or good sanitation, depending on your point of view.

Put a seat on the foresprit and rig a curtain, perhaps? <G>

*Med*-
I've been up close and intimate with the c.diff issue with a family member this year. Even from CDC and NIH you will get contradictory information, but the bottom line is that you need a very strong bleach solution for a very long time in order to clean it, and in studies where 'proper' cleaning was done, they still had extensive spreading.
Right now if you want to kill the c.diff. once it has gone to spores, the only effective means is high dose UV-C radiation (illumination). Or one of the chemical agents that is so effective you wouldn't want to use it outside of a biohazard lab.

Now granted, that's not as big a problem as other bugs that are spread in human feces, but it is one that is up and coming. Dump the nightsoil is some dumpster, landfill, and all it takes is a pet rummaging through it at night to "bring it home" the next day. Yes, **** is **** and by and large it is not a problem--but hepatitis and yellow fever and all sorts of nasty killers are NOT gone. Aid workers exposed to sewage contamination after floods and storms still get a long lit of shots to deal with a long list of problems, and I'd just as soon know that "compost" means compost, as in 100% kill of all pathogens, before someone tries to pass it off as safe.

The composting toilets? Aren't anywhere near that. Which should be scary, because they are selling ti to people AS SAFE.


----------



## PhantomJim

Has anyone personally had any bad experience with an Airhead or Nature Head "composting toilet"? Do any of you who have installed one of these products regret the experience? If anyone has a yes to either of these questions, please elaborate.


----------



## PTsailing

We use a dry composting head (composting is really a misnomer, none of them really turn it into compost) that we built ourselves from a seperatt privy kit. Same concepts as both the airhead and the nature head. We prefer this type of head over the "keep a large tank of raw sewerage on board" method. Less hassle, no head smell, uses much less space on board. We live on board full time too. You may also be interested in the C-Head, it's half the price of the other two. 
C-Head portable composting toilets


----------



## RonRelyea

*"Composting" Head problems*



PhantomJim said:


> Has anyone personally had any bad experience with an Airhead or Nature Head "composting toilet"? Do any of you who have installed one of these products regret the experience? If anyone has a yes to either of these questions, please elaborate.


The only problem I ever had was a fruit fly infestation that occurred when the exhaust fan had a loose connection and wasn't running. A relatively easy thorough cleaning took care of the problem (after fixing the dc connector for the fan).

Other than that, after two full seasons of use, I'm still happy with it and would buy one again without even thinking about it.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

PhantomJim said:


> Has anyone personally had any bad experience with an Airhead or Nature Head "composting toilet"? Do any of you who have installed one of these products regret the experience? If anyone has a yes to either of these questions, please elaborate.


Not first hand but second hand.

A friend of mine was delivering a boat from somewhere in Maine down to the Chessie. Four guys and IIRC the owner's wife on board. They had to abandon the delivery somewhere on the way because conditions on board became unbearable due to the composting head. I think they all left the boat and somehow someone completed the voyage several weeks later. I don't really know what happened and my friend did not go into details but he is not squeamish usually.


----------



## RonRelyea

*definite problem*



MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Not first hand but second hand.
> 
> A friend of mine was delivering a boat from somewhere in Maine down to the Chessie. Four guys and IIRC the owner's wife on board. They had to abandon the delivery somewhere on the way because conditions on board became unbearable due to the composting head. I think they all left the boat and somehow someone completed the voyage several weeks later. I don't really know what happened and my friend did not go into details but he is not squeamish usually.


I can certainly see where 5 people's daily use is too much for one head. I've had 2 guys daily use for two weeks ... and me solo for the rest of the season with no problem. your mileage may vary


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

RonRelyea said:


> I can certainly see where 5 people's daily use is too much for one head. I've had 2 guys daily use for two weeks ... and me solo for the rest of the season with no problem. your mileage may vary


Yes, I had the same thought, 5 crew may simply have overwhelmed the capacity of the thing. Still, this was a good-sized boat, and the potential of not having enough 'head capacity' (have I created a new word here?) would be a limitation that people may want to take into account when thinking about a conversion.


----------



## alanr77

I would be very curious to know what forced them to "abandon" (I hate that word) the delivery due to the head...I I am reading things correctly, the Natures Head claims "80 uses" before needing to be serviced. Now...5/80 sounds about like 16 days or so..of once a day. So lets just figure 14 days to be safe. 2 weeks. Half a month. Why didn't they empty it???? Improper use? Not enough coconut? Or...could it be..

I have discussed this with quite a few people around my area. People ranging from modern day hippies to doctors. Somewhere around the 1/4 to 1/2 point up the scale of society, the acceptance level changes from "cool idea, and it sounds green" to "oh my god, that's disgusting!!" 

Just playing devils advocate here. I simply wonder if that was the actual reason the delivery was abandoned or simply a factor. I read somewhere in this thread about someone getting a geyser of blackwater in the face and have experienced the same. Now THAT is a reason to abandon a delivery...or at least just walk off the back deck while underway in the middle of the sea...


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

alanr77 said:


> I would be very curious to know what forced them to "abandon" (I hate that word) the delivery due to the head...I I am reading things correctly, the Natures Head claims "80 uses" before needing to be serviced. Now...5/80 sounds about like 16 days or so..of once a day. So lets just figure 14 days to be safe. 2 weeks. Half a month. Why didn't they empty it???? Improper use? Not enough coconut? Or...could it be..
> 
> I have discussed this with quite a few people around my area. People ranging from modern day hippies to doctors. Somewhere around the 1/4 to 1/2 point up the scale of society, the acceptance level changes from "cool idea, and it sounds green" to "oh my god, that's disgusting!!"
> 
> Just playing devils advocate here. I simply wonder if that was the actual reason the delivery was abandoned or simply a factor. I read somewhere in this thread about someone getting a geyser of blackwater in the face and have experienced the same. Now THAT is a reason to abandon a delivery...or at least just walk off the back deck while underway in the middle of the sea...


I don't know much about these 'composting' toilets (looks like you have put it in quotation marks) but I would imagine that it not only the total number of 'uses' is a limitation but also the number of 'uses' per day. Do the companies that sell them give guidelines on that?


----------



## knothead

Sheesh, It's not like it's rocket science. Even our pet cats know how to do it. 
Take a dump and cover it up till it doesn't stink. When it gets full, empty it or change buckets. 

The idea of having to abandon a delivery because of a malfunctioning composting toilet is absolutely inane and could only be the result of complete ignorance or laziness. 
Anyone that couldn't find a way to work around a problem like that shouldn't be allowed to operate a boat in the first place. Much less reproduce.


----------



## RonRelyea

*maybe they didn't have any replacement peat moss ..*



knothead said:


> Sheesh, It's not like it's rocket science. Even our pet cats know how to do it.
> Take a dump and cover it up till it doesn't stink. When it gets full, empty it or change buckets.
> 
> The idea of having to abandon a delivery because of a malfunctioning composting toilet is absolutely inane and could only be the result of complete ignorance or laziness.
> Anyone that couldn't find a way to work around a problem like that shouldn't be allowed to operate a boat in the first place. Much less reproduce.


or coconut coir ?????


----------



## knothead

RonRelyea said:


> or coconut coir ?????


What would you do if you ran out of cover material? Abandon the trip and run for the nearest harbor? 
How about just switching to the old cedar bucket method and tossing the sh!t overboard. 
Sorry, I have little patience for helplessness.


----------



## alanr77

Those were exactly my points. I simply think that a plumbed wet system has a much higher chance of malfunctioning than a glorified cedar bucket...for the sake of discussion, I know sailors who will not leave the dock if their GPS chartplotter malfunctions...I have charts on board for that reason...and can use them. A malfunctioning composting toilet stopping a delivery?....how exactly would it malfunction? Did the operator malfunction? Mistake the sink for the head in the middle of the night and find themselves being awoken in the morning by the Captain who tried to shave in the dark using the sink? I am curious. 

On another note, I have noticed that there is not a lot of information regarding these heads posted on forums. Now, we all know that most people will not post things unless they have a problem. Functioning equipment warrants little discussion...it just functions so people don't think about it..could this be a good thing regarding these heads? Both major companies that make them are obviously selling them as they are still in business. I am seriously considering one of these things and will be done with the restoration of the main cabin soon. The head is next...I will document the process and post on the results.


----------



## neverknow

We have a composting toilet in our shop on land. There's no septic system or sewer where our business is.

We have had it for over 10 yrs and have yet to do anything to it. I'm assuming that land based systems have a much larger capacity. It doesn't get used much since our home is only 1/3 mile away and we hardly have anyone besides the family at our shop. Ours doesn't separate the liquid from solids either. They all go in the same place.

Our only advice would be to make 100% sure you never allow the fan to stop. I can tell you that we have a large exhaust fan in our powder spray booth that will from time to time over power the little fan in the toilet. When this happens the smell from the toilet will fill the shop, Although not crazy bad the smell is different enough (plus knowing where it came from) that you don't want to smell it long.

For us, after owning a land based system for so long I'm not sure we'd be up for a composing toilet on our boat. They are or seem to be dirtier. A step down in class or how ever you'd want to say it.

Like one poster said flush it and forget it is a better way. Even if once every few yrs you have to suck it up and do some maintenance. We had to change the holding tank in our Carver in 2008. It was leaking into the aft cabin. Smelled like hell or some other 4 letter word. Changed it on the 4th of July weekend, hot as hell. Yes it was a very bad exp. but I still don't think I'd put in a composting toilet. 

Another thing to consider is resale value. Will ppl looking at your boat think the same as you? Surveyors might not be familiar enough with them to give sound advice to buyers???? 

I always figured when the time comes for us to sell our business we will not be able to count the composting toilet as a bath room.


----------



## MedSailor

PhantomJim said:


> Has anyone personally had any bad experience with an Airhead or Nature Head "composting toilet"? Do any of you who have installed one of these products regret the experience? If anyone has a yes to either of these questions, please elaborate.


Bad experiences? Yeah, sure we've had those. Now that we're more experienced with the Nature's Head they're few and far between. My wife and I don't regret installing it at all, and believe you me, the experiences we had weren't half as bad as "experiences" with the old systems.

Bad experiences:

1: We had a larva infestation in the toilet.  This nearly put the wife off the whole process and she's normally happy to be the one to empty it! Turned out that the peat moss we bought had hitch-hikers of the 6 legged kind in it. We used premethrin spray and killed them and dumped the "compost". Yet another reason to use coconut coir. No possibility of bugs!

2: Got lazy with checking to make sure the urine bottle was full one too many times. The nature's head is designed to that if the urine bottle is full, excess urine goes into the composing part. A good design considering the alternatives, but we ended up with a soupy mess. We added quite a bit more coconut coir which soaked up the moisture and emptied the stuff once it was more like dirt again.

3: Pee bottle smells. If we don't rinse the pee bottle out with vinegar every few weeks/months depending on usage there can be a urine odor. Not a huge hassle though.

4: A non issue: We've had the fan stop many times and it was never a problem. It's quite amazing that the unit won't smell at all even with the fan off. Once the media is saturated with poo it will start to smell a little "earthy" but nothing like poo, or farm, or anything very unpleasant.

--------------------------
Hellosailor,

Sorry, I just can't leave the medical issue alone. There is so much bad medical information abounding on the internet that I feel compelled to comment, even though it's a bit off topic by now.

I AGREE that these units don't compost in any meaningful way. With particular attention to medical issues, they absolutely do NOT render any pathogens safe through "composing." Therefore I agree that some care needs to be taken with the nighsoil especially if you suspect sick people are pooping in it.

What I take issue with is C-diff. C-diff is NOT like hepatitis and many other fecal-oral diseases because C-DIFF REQUIRES A SENSITIVE HOST. Thus the dog rummaging through the trash analogy is not a very good one. Remember, to get C-diff you not only need to ingest C-diff spores orally, but you must CURRENTLY/RECENTLY BE ON ANTIBIOTICS in order to be at any risk of the infection. If you're not on antibiotics, you could eat a nightsoil sandwich that is loaded with C-diff spores and even live C-diff bacteriea and have nothing to worry about, except perhaps really bad breath. 
uke

C-diff is making the round of the media and it's common enough now that people know people who've had it, but it's like MRSA in a lot of ways. The more you know about the epidemiology of it, the less worried about it you should be. I track C-diff spores (and MRSA) home every day from work and I don't worry one bit about it.

MedSailor


----------



## hellosailor

Med, I agree with you that the typical c.diff. spores or bacteria itself can be handled by the typical human. The problem being, there are drug-resistant strains, no easy way to test for them, and there are many susceptible users. Look at all the antibiotics taken routinely by so many people, need 'em or not.

Given that there is currently NO recognized and approved way to clear up a c.diff. infection, no cure and no way recognized to fix someone who is suffering from it, in a way that puts c.diff right up there next to Ebola: No known cure, and a significant death rate. OK, Ebola has a higher death rate--but drug resistant c.diff. is showing up more and more and if it doesn't kill now, it kills two years later from chronic diarrhea. Or makes the rest of your life a miserable run for the pot. Even the diagnostic tests for c.diff. and the toxins from it are so heavily riddled with false positives and negatives, that they can be repeated multiple times with no definite results.

"No way recognized" and "no cure" despite the fecal transplants, which are still considered as experimental even though there's a lot of support for them in a very small community.

Is a bucket of nightsoil any better than a small septic tank onboard? I don't know, perhaps if you threw quicklime in the bucket the way any turkish toilet does. My sole greivance with these things is that they are NOT "compost" toilets, and the makers really need to let the purchasers know, excrement is still excrement and adequate precautions need to be taken.

If you believe the CDC "Ten years ago, a team of CDC scientists put together the best enduring estimate of how many Americans get food poisoning each year: 76 million illnesses, which resulted in 325,000 ho$pitalization$ and 5,000 deaths." Basics are still worth being aware of, and the public generally is simply unaware of them. Even without deceptive names.

In the US we are still somewhat in the golden age when there are no plagues, no rampant disease [sic]...but epidemics and sanitation really still need to be remembered. Like HIV and syphilis, it is just much simpler to take some basic steps and not catch them. Whether they are curable or not, better still just to not have that problem.

Although, having had "explosive diarrhea" (which has to be experienced to be truly understood) I have to wonder about having a head that isn't flushed with water. There are times when that flushing and washing might be a good thing. Or, the bag of quicklime.


----------



## RobGallagher

I'm on the fence.

Traditional marine toilets and holding tanks are hard to maintain, they can smell, and if they fail.... Holy crap!

As for "composting" toilets, I agree that they do not produce "compost. However, I think it's how one deals with the waste. So it's not safe near food, pets, children etc.

However, if one is far enough off shore it can be legally and ethically dumped. If one is near shore it can be disposed of properly. I would take it home and bury it. Two or three times a season is not a big deal. It beats the hell out of maintaining an old Jabsco.

However, if one is living aboard or cruising no-discharge zones how can it be disposed of?

edit: I suppose it could be taken ashore to marina rest rooms and flushed in small quantities? Not sure what coconut husks or peat moss due to indoor plumbing or septic systems.


----------



## RonRelyea

*compost without adding new material for two months??*

Natures Head has extra "bottoms" available with lids. Would letting an extra bottom with lid compost for a couple of months without adding new material take care of the bad crap like c-diff ??? (pun intended)


----------



## knothead

RonRelyea said:


> Natures Head has extra "bottoms" available with lids. Would letting an extra bottom with lid compost for a couple of months without adding new material take care of the bad crap like c-diff ??? (pun intended)


No. While the composting process will continue in the closed buckets, it will not reach thermophilic temperatures. It takes a couple of years of cold composting to be sure that the pathogens are dead.

What most people who haven't actually tried it don't understand is that you don't actually handle anything. When I empty my bucket in my compost pile I'm not getting it all over myself. I take the pitchfork, make a depression in the middle, dump the contents of the bucket, which is primarily sawdust, (i don't even have to look at feces, it's all covered in sawdust) into the depression and then using the pitchfork I cover the new addition with more cover material. Usually grass clippings or partially mulched leaves. 
The bucket is rinsed with water which is then dumped on the pile. 
After it's all said and done, I wash my hands. No big deal. 
If people would really think about it, they are probably much more likely to be exposed to raw fecal material just wiping their butt than they are emptying their bucket. 
A big to-do over nothing.

Rob, hopefully, the day is coming that the phobia about all this will begin to subside and marinas will begin to offer disposal services for the users of composting heads. 
I for one would be happy to have the occasional cruiser add to my compost pile. It's just more rich soil for my yard.


----------



## HeartsContent

Rob,

You are pretty much nailing the problem with these composting heads - they're just complicated porta-potti's. At least I can take a port-potti and dump it in any head safely and responsibly with zero environmental impact.

With composting heads, it's a given that urine is directly discharged into the water as the holding tank is far smaller than any port-potti. So it's a given the urine is dumped directly in the water which makes this composting solution no different than peeing over the side - always!

There is no safe place to dispose of the fecal matter mixed with other contents in the main chamber. It's human feces that breaks down and mixes with the material it is mixed with and all the fecal bacterial is there. Being more solid means it presents a far greater health risk when dumped at sea as it will drift in clumps - yuck. And there is no safe place to bury, dump or mix human feces on land so special dumping areas will have to be developed that can be processed. Otherwise it's synonymous with crapping in your back yard and covering it with dirt and leaves. uke

My take is that they should be classed as illegal on boats as a sanitation device. These are far from a sensible ecological solution and actually contribute to a less ecologically sound and healthy solution than traditional porta-potti and holding tank methods. Meaning they make the problem worse not better.

Good luck selling a boat with this system or finding a deliver captain willing to take the risk of a pollution violation.


----------



## knothead

HeartsContent said:


> Rob,
> 
> You are pretty much nailing the problem with these composting heads - they're just complicated porta-potti's. At least I can take a port-potti and dump it in any head safely and responsibly with zero environmental impact.
> 
> With composting heads, it's a given that urine is directly discharged into the water as the holding tank is far smaller than any port-potti. So it's a given the urine is dumped directly in the water which makes this composting solution no different than peeing over the side - always!
> 
> There is no safe place to dispose of the fecal matter mixed with other contents in the main chamber. It's human feces that breaks down and mixes with the material it is mixed with and all the fecal bacterial is there. Being more solid means it presents a far greater health risk when dumped at sea as it will drift in clumps - yuck. And there is no safe place to bury, dump or mix human feces on land so special dumping areas will have to be developed that can be processed. Otherwise it's synonymous with crapping in your back yard and covering it with dirt and leaves. uke
> 
> My take is that they should be classed as illegal on boats as a sanitation device. These are far from a sensible ecological solution and actually contribute to a less ecologically sound and healthy solution than traditional porta-potti and holding tank methods. Meaning they make the problem worse not better.
> 
> Good luck selling a boat with this system or finding a deliver captain willing to take the risk of a pollution violation.


Congratulations on perhaps the most uninformed and ignorant post in this thread to date.


----------



## arf145

knothead said:


> Congratulations on perhaps the most uninformed and ignorant post in this thread to date.


I don't do the "Like" thing, but I did like that!


----------



## sailortjk1

knothead said:


> Congratulations on perhaps the most uninformed and ignorant post in this thread to date.


LOL.
I have been trying very hard to be persuaded.
Funny thing in reading through this thread is those that have actually used the product and have first hand experience seem to endorse them and would highly recommend them. *Those that have nothing good to say have never even tried them.*I have to say, I would be reluctant to try. But hey, its just a bunch of crap anyway you look at it. I guess being on fresh water with fresh water flush every time; our holding tank does not stink. Being costal cruisers we are never far from a Pump out. The only time I had a problem was when somebody used the wrong TP, not mentioning any names Julie, and my biggest issue is replacing the joker valve every now and again. 
Hey Knotty: go Rays. I was just down in the area last week in St Petes. Hope all is well with you.


----------



## knothead

sailortjk1 said:


> LOL.
> I have been trying very hard to be persuaded.
> Funny thing in reading through this thread is those that have actually used the product and have first hand experience seem to endorse them and would highly recommend them. *Those that have nothing good to say have never even tried them.*I have to say, I would be reluctant to try. But hey, its just a bunch of crap anyway you look at it. I guess being on fresh water with fresh water flush every time; our holding tank does not stink. Being costal cruisers we are never far from a Pump out. The only time I had a problem was when somebody used the wrong TP, not mentioning any names Julie, and my biggest issue is replacing the joker valve every now and again.
> Hey Knotty: go Rays. I was just down in the area last week in St Petes. Hope all is well with you.


Hey tjk, good to see you around. I wish you had given me a call when you were in town.

You've got it exactly right. It's those who have never used the systems that have the problems. The vast majority of people who try them understand the simplicity and naturalness of the process. 
It just drives me crazy to see such misinformation propagated by people who are simply afraid or squeamish.

Here's an example of how the composting of humane manure is solving problems in Haiti.

Human Waste to Revive Haitian Farmland?

http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/sites/video/swf/ngplayer_syndicated.swf


----------



## neverknow

I still can not see a $250,000 yacht with one of these on it. Like we posted before we have a land based system.

Composting Toilets By Sun-Mar - The Environmental Solution

It's in our shop. There's no way we'd want it on our boat. But maybe the marine versions are better. I'd still worry about resale value.


----------



## knothead

neverknow said:


> I still can not see a $250,000 yacht with one of these on it. Like we posted before we have a land based system.
> 
> Composting Toilets By Sun-Mar - The Environmental Solution
> 
> It's in our shop. There's no way we'd want it on our boat. But maybe the marine versions are better. I'd still worry about resale value.


Well if I owned a boat worth a quarter million, it would have one. But of course you're right. 
The whole idea of having to actually deal with one's own sh!t, is pretty radical to most people. Whether they have expensive boats or not. We have been conditioned to simply flush and forget.

But the fact is, there are a lot more people in the world that don't own expensive yachts and that don't live aboard and that aren't cruising around the world who might just find that the idea works for them. Plus there are millions upon millions of others that do most of their pooping on land that could really be doing themselves and the environment a favor by stopping the practice of wasting up to one third of their water consumption flushing their toilets.

As far as a boat's resale value, and I'm not talking about your quarter million dollar yacht example. I personally have worked on lots of boats that were for sale that stunk so bad that if I were looking to buy it, I would have preferred it if the stinking head and all the components were ripped out before I took possession. I might even pay more.


----------



## sailor50

You know what I learned about researching this - more people get disease from not washing their hands after using THE POTTY anywhere!

At home, at work, before eating, after eating! In the USA, it doesn't matter where you void, it's what you do with your hands afterwards. Why do you think there is so much dysentery in India? No fresh water to wash - we are lucky to have public restrooms when needed.

The nursing homes in Florida don't educate their staff about sterilization between C-Diff patients and the next patient - unless you tell them! Caused by SH__! The lack of a sterile environment is found even in hospitals - Infection and MERSA.

Why not take responsibility for yourself? Bury, wash, cover, resupply the Earth with compost - and make a less carbon impact! Your flowers grow better, the grass is greener!


----------



## MedSailor

hellosailor said:


> Given that there is currently NO recognized and approved way to clear up a c.diff. infection, no cure and no way recognized to fix someone who is suffering from it, in a way that puts c.diff right up there next to Ebola: No known cure, and a significant death rate. OK, Ebola has a higher death rate--but drug resistant c.diff. is showing up more and more and if it doesn't kill now, it kills two years later from chronic diarrhea. Or makes the rest of your life a miserable run for the pot. Even the diagnostic tests for c.diff. and the toxins from it are so heavily riddled with false positives and negatives, that they can be repeated multiple times with no definite results.
> 
> "No way recognized" and "no cure" despite the fecal transplants, which are still considered as experimental even though there's a lot of support for them in a very small community.


This is patently absurd.

It is also exactly the kind of medical mis-information that is rampant on the internet and on the airwaves that makes life as a medical provider in this country often a living hell.

I don't even know where to start..... There are treatments, (I've personally treated MANY a case of C-diff) there is a definative cure that works 100% of the time, there are even FDA approved treatments, the test you refer to is old and out-dated..... Really, I don't even know where to start.


----------



## knothead

MedSailor said:


> This is patently absurd.
> 
> It is also exactly the kind of medical mis-information that is rampant on the internet and on the airwaves that makes life as a medical provider in this country often a living hell.
> 
> I don't even know where to start..... There are treatments, (I've personally treated MANY a case of C-diff) there is a definative cure that works 100% of the time, there are even FDA approved treatments, the test you refer to is old and out-dated..... Really, I don't even know where to start.


The internet, while a gold mine of information, is, at the same time, a mine field of misinformation.

While so many people seem to have a phobia about composting humanure, I have a phobia about consuming antibiotics. 
Medsailor, could you tell me if there is any truth to the idea that if you force your immune system to have to work, it gets stronger? 
I have heard that children exposed to the outdoors more get sick less than those children who are more sheltered. Is this a myth?


----------



## neverknow

I would encourage anyone considering a composting toilet to personally visit a boat with one. If possible take a cruise. Live day to day with it.

Like we have said before we own a land based system and just can not imagine having the same on a boat.

Asking guest to use them is not much different to us than asking them to use a porta-potti , a step back in human evolution. Do they work.. yes. 

Are they what you'd expect for 2012....no. Maybe if you were in Haiti?? But certainly not in the USA 2012.

Of coarse these are our personal opinions. These and .01 cents will get you .01 cents....lol

To us we'd rather maintain a standard holding tank system than replace our heads with a composting toilet. For us it's simply a choice or a preference. We'd rather us and our guest be able to flush and forget. Do we have to repair the system form time to time? Sure, but at least we don't have to deal with pee and poop any other time.

So we ultimately have mixed feelings about them. In some situations they are necessary others maybe not?????


----------



## Capt Len

Holding tank and plumping is just another system to maintain.on board a passenger vessel The ease of not explaining and not unplugging makes installing an electric flush a no brainer. Even when alone on board, I just press the #1 or maybe the #2 button and say "Wow! I should have done that years ago". PS , Sign over the head shows stick man standing in circle to pee. Red bar crosses it .Works great.Some of us need more training .


----------



## HeartsContent

knothead said:


> Congratulations on perhaps the most uninformed and ignorant post in this thread to date.


I stand my ground that the composting toilets are just complicated porta-potties that have to be dumped just like regular porta-potties.

Everyone that has them admits they dump the urine over the side of the boat - the urine collecting bottle is ridiculously small. And what do you do with the poo mixed with whatever? I sense a clandestine and unsafe dumping just like the urine. Urine's sterile so it's just the yuck factor but poo is not and can create serious problems.

I am sure your neighbors would love to know you have spread fecal matter around for yard with all its bacteria that will infect their yard with the next rain. Gee that's so green!

Fact is that one will have zero impact on the environment using a porta-pottie or holding tank by dumping or pumping. This is the most environmentally responsible method available today.

Let's be honest, the composters are not in anyway environmentally friendly and should be banned.


----------



## RobGallagher

HeartsContent said:


> I stand my ground that the composting toilets are just complicated porta-potties that have to be dumped just like regular porta-potties.
> 
> Everyone that has them admits they dump the urine over the side of the boat - the urine collecting bottle is ridiculously small. And what do you do with the poo mixed with whatever? I sense a clandestine and unsafe dumping just like the urine. Urine's sterile so it's just the yuck factor but poo is not and can create serious problems.
> 
> I am sure your neighbors would love to know you have spread fecal matter around for yard with all its bacteria that will infect their yard with the next rain. Gee that's so green!
> 
> Fact is that one will have zero impact on the environment using a porta-pottie or holding tank by dumping or pumping. This is the most environmentally responsible method available today.
> 
> Let's be honest, the composters are not in anyway environmentally friendly and should be banned.


The grass is always greener over the leach field.


----------



## pdqaltair

*I enjoyed the reactions to this well-writen response.*



HeartsContent said:


> Rob,
> 
> You are pretty much nailing the problem with these composting heads - they're just complicated porta-potti's. At least I can take a port-potti and dump it in any head safely and responsibly with zero environmental impact.
> 
> With composting heads, it's a given that urine is directly discharged into the water as the holding tank is far smaller than any port-potti. So it's a given the urine is dumped directly in the water which makes this composting solution no different than peeing over the side - always!
> 
> There is no safe place to dispose of the fecal matter mixed with other contents in the main chamber. It's human feces that breaks down and mixes with the material it is mixed with and all the fecal bacterial is there. Being more solid means it presents a far greater health risk when dumped at sea as it will drift in clumps - yuck. And there is no safe place to bury, dump or mix human feces on land so special dumping areas will have to be developed that can be processed. Otherwise it's synonymous with crapping in your back yard and covering it with dirt and leaves. uke
> 
> My take is that they should be classed as illegal on boats as a sanitation device. These are far from a sensible ecological solution and actually contribute to a less ecologically sound and healthy solution than traditional porta-potti and holding tank methods. Meaning they make the problem worse not better.
> 
> Good luck selling a boat with this system or finding a deliver captain willing to take the risk of a pollution violation.


Yes, It's opinion and strongly worded. But I don't see factual errors.

I've used them in cabins and see the sense there; the solids and liquid are dumped in a hole out the door some distance and holding tanks are not possible (hike-in situations). On a boat, we're just pretending it's a better answer.


----------



## RobGallagher

pdqaltair said:


> Yes, It's opinion and strongly worded. But I don't see factual errors.
> 
> I've used them in cabins and see the sense there; the solids and liquid are dumped in a hole out the door some distance and holding tanks are not possible (hike-in situations). On a boat, we're just pretending it's a better answer.


As all things in boating, it's a compromise.

I think that under many circumstances it might work just fine.

Here are my circumstances.

I'm single, but often have a girlfriend.

I spend every weekend on my boat, usually at a marina, so I use the holding tank as little as possible.

My current system, a traditional head with holding tank and Y valve means;


I have two extra holes below the water line (head export and sea water intake). There are two extra holes above water line (pumpout and vent).

I have two anti siphone valves


There are at least 16 joints held together by hose clamps.


There are two seperate pumps that can fail


The Y valve and holding tank will fail at some point, in fact, nearly every part in this system will fail at some point.

All in all, the modern marine toilet has more points that could fail and sink your boat that probably any other system.

Now back to me;

My boat probably gets defecated on about twice a week. That's about 60 times a year.

I also own a home, so, It would be easy for me to dig a hole and empty my stuff in the ground once a year and bury it. That's where most peoples crapola ends up anyway.

Seems to me it would be far more sanitary than lugging around 12 gallons of liquid sewage all season.

As for the urine, well, let's be honest, people piss off their boats or docks all the time. People swimming in the ocean piss all the time. I would, of course, make an effort to empty it down a marina toilet.

Or, I suppose I could take up yoga and start drinking my own.

edit: I recently sold my boat, am frantically searching for a new one and just caught myself speaking in present tense about a boat I no longer own. eek! I'm going back to Yachtworld where I belong!


----------



## knothead

HeartsContent said:


> I stand my ground that the composting toilets are just complicated porta-potties that have to be dumped just like regular porta-potties.
> 
> Everyone that has them admits they dump the urine over the side of the boat - the urine collecting bottle is ridiculously small. And what do you do with the poo mixed with whatever? I sense a clandestine and unsafe dumping just like the urine. Urine's sterile so it's just the yuck factor but poo is not and can create serious problems.
> 
> I am sure your neighbors would love to know you have spread fecal matter around for yard with all its bacteria that will infect their yard with the next rain. Gee that's so green!
> 
> Fact is that one will have zero impact on the environment using a porta-pottie or holding tank by dumping or pumping. This is the most environmentally responsible method available today.
> 
> *Let's be honest, the composters are not in anyway environmentally friendly and should be banned.*


Oh for God's sake man. Why don't you do just a modicum of research before making such patently absurd statements.

My neighbors do know that I compost. They have no problem with it because they have taken the time to learn a little bit about it. They even save their kitchen scraps for me.

I have never spread fecal matter around my yard. What a stupid comment. I spread compost around my yard. Pathogen free, nutrient rich compost. If you don't understand the difference, then again, I suggest you do a little research instead of putting your ignorance on display for the whole world.

Your comment that a composting toilet is just like a port-a-potty only proves that you've never compared them. A port-a-potty is pretty much just like your plain old holding tank system except the the tank is in the toilet. And they stink even worse than the traditional MSD. Whereas the composting toilet, especially when the urine is diverted contains mostly solid matter and doesn't smell at all when operated correctly. 
Of course they have to be dumped. Just like a holding tank has to be pumped out.

Your final comment is so inane that it defies comprehension.

Here's a little information about composting. Educate yourself.

Compost - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From the article:

"Humanure"

"Humanure" is a portmanteau neologism designating human excrement (feces and urine) that is recycled via composting for agricultural or other purposes. The term was popularized in a 1994 book by Joseph Jenkins[23] that advocates the use of this organic soil amendment.[24]

Humanure is not traditional sewage that has been processed by waste-treatment facilities, which may include waste from industrial and other sources; rather, it is the combination of feces and urine with paper and additional carbon material (such as sawdust). A humanure system, such as a composting toilet, does not require water or electricity, and when properly managed does not smell. Because the term "humanure" has no authoritative definition it is subject to misuse; news reporters occasionally fail to correctly distinguish between humanure and "sewer sludge" or "biosolids".[25]

By disposing of feces and urine through composting, the nutrients contained in them are returned to the soil. This aids in preventing soil degradation. Human fecal matter and urine have high percentages of nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, carbon, and calcium. It is equal to many fertilizers and manures purchased in garden stores. Humanure aids in the conservation of fresh water by avoiding the usage of potable water required by the typical flush toilet. It further prevents the pollution of ground water by controlling the fecal matter decomposition before entering the system. When properly managed, there should be no ground contamination from leachate.

As a substitute for a flush water process, it reduces the energy consumption and, hence, greenhouse gas emissions associated with the transportation and processing of water and waste water.

Humanure may be deemed safe for humans to use on crops if handled in accordance with local health regulations, and composted properly. This means that thermophilic decomposition of the humanure must heat it sufficiently to destroy harmful pathogens, or enough time must have elapsed since fresh material was added that biological activity has killed any pathogens. To be safe for crops, a curing stage is often needed to allow a second mesophilic phase to reduce potential phytotoxins.

Humanure is different from night soil, which is raw human waste spread on crops. While aiding the return of nutrients in fecal matter to the soil, it can carry and spread a vast number of human pathogens. Humanure kills these pathogens both by the extreme heat of the composting and the extended amount of time (1 to 2 years) that it is allowed to decompose.


----------



## HeartsContent

knothead said:


> Oh for God's sake man. Why don't you do just a modicum of research before making such patently absurd statements.
> 
> My neighbors do know that I compost. They have no problem with it because they have taken the time to learn a little bit about it. They even save their kitchen scraps for me.


There is a HUGE difference between organic compost (food, grass ...) and human fecal matter mixed with compost. The latter carries fecal bacteria and the former does not. There is a reason that you are not supped to mix the fecal compost with food gardens - *it's dangerous due to the fecal bacteria!* - RTM that comes with your composting toilet!!!!

If you are spreading fecal compost in your yard then my post remains valid despite the ignorance of the parties involved. It's disgusting and dangerous - especially in an urban environment. If folks get sick in your neighborhood, you could be in a heap of trouble if they track it back to you. Now more so than before as you cannot claim ignorance. Gotta love the internet! 

Where you dump the bacteria does not influence where it will stay. Once it rains, this bacteria can easily end up in your neighbors vegetable garden. Note that many of the recent food contamination issues are a result of this.

This exemplifies how messed up the public understanding of responsible environmental management is (gotta love "green"). A society of no understanding of consequences, only what's in it for me!

If you've ever seen the 3rd world you'll fully understand the dire consequences of failing to properly manage sewage.

So how do you responsibly discard the waste from a composting toilet? The answer is this cannot be a zero impact solution and at any scale begins to become a serious health issue.

One can have a zero impact with a porta-pottie or pump out head.

That's just the facts, not opinion or religion.


----------



## davidpm

knothead said:


> I have never spread fecal matter around my yard. What a stupid comment. I spread compost around my yard. Pathogen free, nutrient .


I can see that with normal usage if you have your own yard available the ct sounds ideal.

How do you figure it would work out if you are limited to marina's and anchoring and are not off shore.


----------



## davidpm

HeartsContent said:


> - .
> 
> So how do you responsibly discard the waste from a composting toilet? The answer is this cannot be a zero impact solution and at any scale begins to become a serious health issue.
> .


I think you make a good point but I'd seems unlikely that a bucket or two in the corner of a yard per year would be a scale that would be a problem.
many of us poo very seldom on the boat but proper handling is important and volume matters, agreed.
For many of us it seems to be a solution if Handled responsibly.


----------



## knothead

HeartsContent said:


> There is a HUGE difference between organic compost (food, grass ...) and human fecal matter mixed with compost. The latter carries fecal bacteria and the former does not. There is a reason that you are not supped to mix the fecal compost with food gardens - *it's dangerous due to the fecal bacteria!* - RTM that comes with your composting toilet!!!!
> 
> If you are spreading fecal compost in your yard then my post remains valid despite the ignorance of the parties involved. It's disgusting and dangerous - especially in an urban environment. If folks get sick in your neighborhood, you could be in a heap of trouble if they track it back to you. Now more so than before as you cannot claim ignorance. Gotta love the internet!
> 
> Where you dump the bacteria does not influence where it will stay. Once it rains, this bacteria can easily end up in your neighbors vegetable garden. Note that many of the recent food contamination issues are a result of this.
> 
> This exemplifies how messed up the public understanding of responsible environmental management is (gotta love "green"). A society of no understanding of consequences, only what's in it for me!
> 
> If you've ever seen the 3rd world you'll fully understand the dire consequences of failing to properly manage sewage.
> 
> So how do you responsibly discard the waste from a composting toilet? The answer is this cannot be a zero impact solution and at any scale begins to become a serious health issue.
> 
> One can have a zero impact with a porta-pottie or pump out head.
> 
> That's just the facts, not opinion or religion.


Are you obtuse or just a troll? 
Let me quote from my previous post. Please actually read it this time, okay?

"Humanure may be deemed safe for humans to use on crops if handled in accordance with local health regulations, and composted properly. This means that thermophilic decomposition of the humanure must heat it sufficiently to destroy harmful pathogens, or enough time must have elapsed since fresh material was added that biological activity has killed any pathogens. To be safe for crops, a curing stage is often needed to allow a second mesophilic phase to reduce potential phytotoxins.

Humanure is different from night soil, which is raw human waste spread on crops. While aiding the return of nutrients in fecal matter to the soil, it can carry and spread a vast number of human pathogens. Humanure kills these pathogens both by the extreme heat of the composting and the extended amount of time (1 to 2 years) that it is allowed to decompose."

There is a lot of information on the subject. Why don't you actually check it out? 
No offense, but you're information is a bunch of crap. 
You're insisting that the most natural process in the world, one that happens all by itself and has forever, is a dangerous practice. 
That's just silly.

Google a fellow named Joe Jenkins. He's the guy that came up with the term "Humanure". He also composted his family's waste for over thirty years while bringing up children. He used the compost in his vegetable gardens for all that time.

The Humanure Handbook - Center of the Humanure Universe

He also paid to have extensive testing on his compost and has the documentation to prove his claims.


----------



## knothead

davidpm said:


> I can see that with normal usage if you have your own yard available the ct sounds ideal.
> 
> How do you figure it would work out if you are limited to marina's and anchoring and are not off shore.


Until people become educated on the subject, unreasonable fears such as Heart's Content is exhibiting will continue and serve to hold back simple solutions such as special bins provided by municipalities for the specific purpose of collecting compostable materials. 
The sad fact is that misinformation is holding back progress. People like HC are sitting on city councils and making decisions based on paranoia rather than science.

However, to answer your question directly. Placing the mostly dry contents of a composting head into a stout plastic trash bag and tossing it in the dumpster seems to work for a lot of people. It will still end up in the dump and be returned to the soil. And it won't be any more dangerous than all the diapers that end up there.


----------



## pdqaltair

*But is it better? That's where your loosing the debate.*



knothead said:


> Until people become educated on the subject, unreasonable fears such as Heart's Content is exhibiting will continue and serve to hold back simple solutions such as special bins provided by municipalities for the specific purpose of collecting compostable materials.
> The sad fact is that misinformation is holding back progress. People like HC are sitting on city councils and making decisions based on paranoia rather than science.
> 
> However, to answer your question directly. Placing the mostly dry contents of a composting head into a stout plastic trash bag and tossing it in the dumpster seems to work for a lot of people. It will still end up in the dump and be returned to the soil. And it won't be any more dangerous than all the diapers that end up there.


a. Is there something better about a cruiser depositing night waste mixed with saw dust in a waste can than disposing of sewage into a sewage treatment plant? To my mind, they are perhaps equal. Both are acceptable with some negatives.

b. The solids are not composted in the airhead of a well used boat--the design is inadequate, the temperatures too low and the rate is too high--they are only partially dried and mixed with stuff. Put the solids in my yard to compost? Like many sailors, that is 1-hour drive from the boat and I'm not trucking it home. There is no "green" disposal possibility anywhere I have ever cruised. So, while "humanure" might work for some--and I think it is an acceptable idea where there are good composting practices--it simply will not work for most sailors.

c. A properly installed marine head has zero odor; it's a matter of proper installation. There are many old systems that don't work, but likewise there are many old cars that don't run. They're not hard to fix, but perhaps it's not obvious. Proper hoses. Proper venting (large or a filter). Short hose runs. Proper design. I was on my boat today, and it worked just as well as my home facility.

d. Risk of sinking. My through hulls are in a bulkheaded compartment. I don't have siphon breaks, as the head is 4" above the water line and catamarans don't heel much. Really, no risk of sinking in my case. Yes, there are some scary through hull installations out there.

e. As for comments that everything will eventually fail, well, obviously. Air-head sell spare parts too, and from what I'm told, things do break. I over-hauled my MSD system this summer, after 14 years, and it's like new. That seems pretty reasonable. Not difficult. Like "a", this issue is probably equal either way.

f. Hauling crap out vs. pumping-out. Pumping out is really easy in most areas, like getting gas (often the same dock). Hauling crap means carrying something through the salon, down the dock, to a can, and back. And pitching the piss each day. I don't have a poo phobia, not at all. I just know which system is easier.

g. psuedo-composting head needs continuous power. Fan wears out. Danger of fire. Small, but so is sinking.

h. Psudo-composting head needs large vent; if poorly installed these can REALLY take water, drowning the above fan and wetting compost. It's happened. A vent design error on an MSD system only fills the tank, and that is rare.

Yes, a pseudo-composting toilet can work. But I don't believe the case has been made that it is better for most sailors. Some will like it, but not very many. A bucket can work and so can a smelly poorly designed MSD. I offer that most air-head buyers are reacting to a bad msd expereince, rather than choosing with a clear head.

------------

PS. I have designed commercial composting operations (yard waste, presorted household waste, rendering waste), sewage treatment plants (both refinery waste and sanitary waste) and oil and metals recycling facilities: I am neither paranoid nor ignorant.


----------



## tommays

No through holes

Less than 1 pint fresh water flush porcelain bowl whats not to like

Compleat system 500 dollars with a SS deck pump out and vent


----------



## knothead

pdqaltair said:


> a. Is there something better about a cruiser depositing night waste mixed with saw dust in a waste can than disposing of sewage into a sewage treatment plant? To my mind, they are perhaps equal. Both are acceptable with some negatives.
> 
> I don't maintain that the choice of a composting head is for everyone. Cruisers who are using the head every day and don't have access to a place to deposit the compost are perhaps better off using a traditional MSD.
> 
> b. The solids are not composted in the airhead of a well used boat--the design is inadequate, the temperatures too low and the rate is too high--they are only partially dried and mixed with stuff. Put the solids in my yard to compost? Like many sailors, that is 1-hour drive from the boat and I'm not trucking it home. There is no "green" disposal possibility anywhere I have ever cruised. So, while "humanure" might work for some--and I think it is an acceptable idea where there are good composting practices--it simply will not work for most sailors.
> 
> Most sailors? I disagree. Most sailors that I know and work for wouldn't fill up a composting head in a month or two of use.
> 
> What's the big deal with carrying a sealed five gallon pail of mostly dry waste in the trunk of your car? You carry a sloshing tank of sewage around in your boat all the time. And if you're a cruiser, that's your home. You don't have to live in your car.
> 
> I don't believe that you can say that the design is inadequate. They do exactly what they are advertized to do. As you say and I agree with, if you are using it a lot and don't have a convienent place to compost it, maybe it's not the best choice for you.
> 
> c. A properly installed marine head has zero odor; it's a matter of proper installation. There are many old systems that don't work, but likewise there are many old cars that don't run. They're not hard to fix, but perhaps it's not obvious. Proper hoses. Proper venting (large or a filter). Short hose runs. Proper design. I was on my boat today, and it worked just as well as my home facility.
> 
> d. Risk of sinking. My through hulls are in a bulkheaded compartment. I don't have siphon breaks, as the head is 4" above the water line and catamarans don't heel much. Really, no risk of sinking in my case. Yes, there are some scary through hull installations out there.
> 
> e. As for comments that everything will eventually fail, well, obviously. Air-head sell spare parts too, and from what I'm told, things do break. I over-hauled my MSD system this summer, after 14 years, and it's like new. That seems pretty reasonable. Not difficult. Like "a", this issue is probably equal either way.
> 
> It's a personal choice. I gained a lot of room by removing the holding tank and I feel better about not having to have to worry about someone clogging up the head by putting too much toilet paper in it.
> I don't know about how well the commercial heads hold up. But I know that if my breaks, I just need to find another bucket.
> 
> f. Hauling crap out vs. pumping-out. Pumping out is really easy in most areas, like getting gas (often the same dock). Hauling crap means carrying something through the salon, down the dock, to a can, and back. And pitching the piss each day. I don't have a poo phobia, not at all. I just know which system is easier.
> 
> I never have to visit a fuel dock unless I'm too lazy to carry five gallons of diesel to the boat. I would have to make special trips to the fuel dock just to pump out the tank. So in my case, it's a lot easier to carry a bucket the thirty feet or so once or twice a year.
> 
> g. psuedo-composting head needs continuous power. Fan wears out. Danger of fire. Small, but so is sinking.
> 
> h. Psudo-composting head needs large vent; if poorly installed these can REALLY take water, drowning the above fan and wetting compost. It's happened. A vent design error on an MSD system only fills the tank, and that is rare.
> 
> Yes, a pseudo-composting toilet can work. But I don't believe the case has been made that it is better for most sailors. Some will like it, but not very many. A bucket can work and so can a smelly poorly designed MSD. I offer that most air-head buyers are reacting to a bad msd expereince, rather than choosing with a clear head.
> 
> My composting head uses no fan. Nor does it need one. My composting head has no vent. Nor does it need one.
> I have no idea why most composting head buyers made their choice. But from what I read, most people seem to be happy with their choice.
> ------------
> 
> PS. I have designed commercial composting operations (yard waste, presorted household waste, rendering waste), sewage treatment plants (both refinery waste and sanitary waste) and oil and metals recycling facilities: *I am neither paranoid nor ignorant*.


I don't believe I have ever accused you of being either. And I'm not trying to win a debate. I'm only trying to share my experience. 
I may have been a little harsh with Heart's Content, but it's difficult to have discussions with people who refuse to educate themselves.

I don't disagree that it requires more effort to compost. I empty the bucket on the head that I use every day just about once a week. It definitely does require a commitment. I even spend the time to mix up a special blend of sawdust and home produced charcoal for cover material. But when I consider the thousands of gallons of water that I haven't wasted and all the great compost that I've been able to add to my poor soil. I feel the effort is a small price to pay.

I really don't disagree with you at all that a composting head may not be the most convenient choice for cruisers. I never claimed that it was. 
I really am more interested in seeing people that it might work for consider the idea. Especially people who do most of their pooping on land. Which frankly, is probably most of the people who are reading this.


----------



## RobGallagher

tommays said:


> No through holes
> 
> Less than 1 pint fresh water flush porcelain bowl whats not to like
> 
> Compleat system 500 dollars with a SS deck pump out and vent


What is the name of this product?


----------



## Mobnets

SEALAND
711-M28 Marine Sanitation System

Mobnets
1973 Paceship Chance 32/28 "Westwind"


----------



## RobGallagher

Mobnets said:


> SEALAND
> 711-M28 Marine Sanitation System
> 
> Mobnets
> 1973 Paceship Chance 32/28 "Westwind"


That's pretty neat! The tanks a bit small, but with the availability of pump out boats it might be a good alternative.

Now I wonder if I can take the contents home and compost it ...


----------



## pdqaltair

knothead said:


> I really don't disagree with you at all that a composting head may not be the most convenient choice for cruisers. I never claimed that it was.
> I really am more interested in seeing people that it might work for consider the idea. Especially people who do most of their pooping on land. Which frankly, is probably most of the people who are reading this.


When I consider the porta-poti I had on my last boat, the bucket head idea seems pretty reasonable; the porta-poti head has many flaws and inconveniences, but it's what make's sense on smaller boats. That boat was 27 feet and 1200 pounds; 300 pounds of MSD system would have insulted the efforts taken to save weight. I agree that your aproach makes a lot more sense than carrying a sloshing porta-poti base down the dock.


----------



## knothead

RobGallagher said:


> That's pretty neat! The tanks a bit small, but with the availability of pump out boats it might be a good alternative.
> 
> *Now I wonder if I can take the contents home and compost it* ...


As long as you haven't used the chemicals, yes you could, but it would be a pretty disgusting proposition though. 
If you think dealing with a mostly dry, sawdust covered plastic pail of virtually odorless waste is nasty, wait till you start dealing with anaerobically active liquid waste. 

I would recommend that you stick with the pump out.

And yes, I know you were only poking fun.


----------



## tommays

Due to the LOW amount of flush water because it is a direct deposit device with the poop NOT traveling to a tank it is BIG at 9.5 gallons

We are pretty good about timing are deposits and while we did have it pumped twice in 2011 we cold have gotten by with once


----------



## davidpm

knothead said:


> . And it won't be any more dangerous than all the diapers that end up there.


Good point.
The way I see it the volume is so low it shouldn't matter.


----------



## knothead

tommays said:


> Due to the LOW amount of flush water because it is a direct deposit device with *the poop NOT traveling to a tank* it is BIG at 9.5 gallons
> 
> We are pretty good about timing are deposits and while we did have it pumped twice in 2011 we cold have gotten by with once


Tommays, I don't understand what you are saying there. Where does the poop go if not into the tank?

The manual says it uses an average of one quart per flush. If you add in the urine and the solids. The way I figure it, you will probably get around thirty uses before having to pump out. Depending on how many people, especially females are using it, that's pretty good. 
I would certainly choose a system that had it's own self contained tank before I ever went back to a traditional set up. If it smells anything like a port-a-potty though, I wouldn't want anything to do with it.


----------



## MedSailor

tommays said:


> Due to the LOW amount of flush water because it is a direct deposit device with the poop NOT traveling to a tank it is BIG at 9.5 gallons
> 
> We are pretty good about timing are deposits and while we did have it pumped twice in 2011 we cold have gotten by with once


Interesting device. Probably a good choice for smaller boats who don't want to go the composting route. An EXCELLENT device when matched to a maceratior/overboard discharge for Canadian boats. Most canadian boats of any vintage are direct-overboard flush only, which in most areas is totally reasonable form an environmental point of view, but a unit like this would allow you to keep the stuff out of the water while travelling by the oyster farms of Desolation Sound, or in the crowded low-flow harbors and anchorages.

As long as it has some flush water it might smell less than a porta-pottie, but on the other hand, it'll be an anerobic tank and every time you make a deposit, I would expect smell unless you use chemical warfare.

As for the previous comments about there being no way to dispose of composing toilet waste, the answer is to put it in the trash. I like Knothead's comparison to diapers in the trash. There was also some hysteria about the dangers if someone's dog got into the trash, or the poor trash handler etc, and to those I would say that trash is rife with bacteria. That raw turkey you threw out 3 days ago is now crawling with salmonella and shigella. The cat litter is full of e-coli and even toxoplasmosis and yet sanitation workers and those who rifle through trash seem to do okay.... The Nature's head has a neat design feature whereby a yard-waste trash bag fits snugly over the lower part of the toilet. Turn it over and it all goes into the bag. No touching of poo required. Though I still wash my hands afterwards for good measure.

Medsailor

PS Knothead, I can't speak much to the question of development of immune systems as a child because there isn't enough good evidence one way or the other that infections "strengthen" the immune system. What I can tell you is that the immune system is largely developed before adolescence and doesn't change much as an adult. Many of us who go into healthcare fields suddenly find that we never get sick anymore and some (usually not the providers because we're supposed to know better) attribute it to "a stronger immune system" when really the evidence shows it's because we wash our hands obsessively.

For further reading related to your question, check out "The Hygiene Hypothesis." A mature, but unproven, hypothesis that allergic diseases specifically are caused by the lack of parasite exposure in the developed world. When reading about this topic or ANYTHING MEDICAL please PLEASE skip right over Wikipedia. ANY website is better than they are on medical topics. :hammer


----------



## tommays

knothead said:


> Tommays, I don't understand what you are saying there. Where does the poop go if not into the tank?
> 
> The manual says it uses an average of one quart per flush. If you add in the urine and the solids. The way I figure it, you will probably get around thirty uses before having to pump out. Depending on how many people, especially females are using it, that's pretty good.
> I would certainly choose a system that had it's own self contained tank before I ever went back to a traditional set up. If it smells anything like a port-a-potty though, I wouldn't want anything to do with it.


The poop goes into the tank and travels 12" BUT does NOT have to travel down a hose to a tank and use a bunch of water getting it there which cuts out most if not all the places systems get smells from

To be perfectly honest if you leave the freshwater OFF and people are just peeing you can turn on the water and rinse the bowl at the end of the day

If you leave it on it takes a TINY amount of water to flush pee and is for sure the lowest water use unit of its type


----------



## RedtheBear

The Bears two cents worth....
Would be very interested in poll, and hats off for a great article Genieskip! Exactly the kind of information needed for "an informed desision". The idea of getting rid of that 10 gal. holding tank and all the extra plumbing on my 24' boat is fantasicly beautiful. I don't care what the factory rep's say after a couple of years those poly tanks smell. And the idea of a dorade vent instead of a 1 1/2" hole in the hull is even better. 
Run the poll, get more input, get more info, feedback. Faster,S..Dad, this is good, get on it.
Redthe Bear


----------



## Mobnets

We were ready to jump to a composting toilet at this time last year. Saw the Airhead and Nature's Head at Strictly Sail Chicago and thought this was perfect. No qualms about yuck factor or any of the disposal issues which to me are moot if done responsibly. We decided to hold off until we had access to the boat in the spring to confirm it would fit with access to everything necessary. Glad we did as either of the units would have fit perfectly. Our problem was there was no good, visually or structurally acceptable way to route the exhaust hose given the construction of our boat.

So now I'm taking a hard look at the self contained gravity flow unit by Sealand (Dometic) pictured previously in this thread. I'm going to start a new thread for specific input on that unit/concept so as not to get this one way off track. 

Mobnets
1973 Paceship Chance 32/28 "Westwind"


----------



## MedSailor

Mobnets said:


> Our problem was there was no good, visually or structurally acceptable way to route the exhaust hose given the construction of our boat.
> Mobnets
> 1973 Paceship Chance 32/28 "Westwind"


What I plan to do is plumb the nature's head vent hose out of the side of the hull in an above the waterline through-hull. I've got one there that I'm not using anyway and I'd rather keep my solar vent free for circulating air through the shower and head.

Did you consider going through the hull above the waterline?

MedSailor


----------



## Mobnets

MedSailor;
No I didn't. Interesting idea but how are you going to prevent water entering when heeled over to that side?
Mobnets


----------



## MedSailor

Mobnets said:


> MedSailor;
> No I didn't. Interesting idea but how are you going to prevent water entering when heeled over to that side?
> Mobnets


It's high enough to be above the waterline at all angles of heel. At least it better be.... it's right next to my bilge pump through hull and my diesel tank vent though hull. Looping the hose up wouldn't hurt either, even without a siphon break it will help.

Where is your current holding tank vent? Could you enlarge that hole and use it?

MedSailor


----------



## Mobnets

No holding tank vent! Westwind is a 1973 boat we bought several years ago from the second owner. Amazed even the broker when I discovered on pre-purchase inspection that it had a manual marine head with direct overboard discharge and no holding tank. Had spent it's entire life on Lakes Michigan and Huron! Factored heavily in reducing the eventual purchase price I paid for the boat. I ripped out the marine head, plugged the trough hulls and bought a port-potti with the biggest waste reservoir available. We have a dedicated portable toilet emptying station at our marina which is great and odors have not been a problem for us if we use appropriate chemicals, but disconnecting, carrying off the boat and emptying that large reservoir when full is awkward and strenuous.

Thanks for the idea. Might be an option for me as well.
Mobnets


----------



## joelsanda

Architeuthis said:


> Another question is resale value. I do not think there is any doubt that these lower the resale chances or value of the boat, by how much is not clear.


All things remaining the same, for two identical boats - one with a composting head and one 'traditional' I would pay a little more for the composting head. Very little to break and next to no maintenance.


----------



## HeartsContent

Hmmm, the manuals for these toilets specifically warn not to dump in food gardens due to potential bacterial contamination.

The research that you quoted outlines very specific conditions required to make the poo safe. It's not likely that many will meet these requirements.

It's amazing that you can just filter out the material that doesn't work for you.

It's sad that you have no regard for the larger community around you and feel the world is your toilet. It's the few bad apples like this that cast a bad light on all boaters. All it's going to take is for this to impact one person and a whole new public crusade against boaters, cruising and anchoring will ignite.

As a modern society we have achieved processed sewage systems so that waste does not have to be dumped in the public domain.



knothead said:


> Are you obtuse or just a troll?
> Let me quote from my previous post. Please actually read it this time, okay?
> 
> "Humanure may be deemed safe for humans to use on crops if handled in accordance with local health regulations, and composted properly. This means that thermophilic decomposition of the humanure must heat it sufficiently to destroy harmful pathogens, or enough time must have elapsed since fresh material was added that biological activity has killed any pathogens. To be safe for crops, a curing stage is often needed to allow a second mesophilic phase to reduce potential phytotoxins.
> 
> Humanure is different from night soil, which is raw human waste spread on crops. While aiding the return of nutrients in fecal matter to the soil, it can carry and spread a vast number of human pathogens. Humanure kills these pathogens both by the extreme heat of the composting and the extended amount of time (1 to 2 years) that it is allowed to decompose."
> 
> There is a lot of information on the subject. Why don't you actually check it out?
> No offense, but you're information is a bunch of crap.
> You're insisting that the most natural process in the world, one that happens all by itself and has forever, is a dangerous practice.
> That's just silly.
> 
> Google a fellow named Joe Jenkins. He's the guy that came up with the term "Humanure". He also composted his family's waste for over thirty years while bringing up children. He used the compost in his vegetable gardens for all that time.
> 
> The Humanure Handbook - Center of the Humanure Universe
> 
> He also paid to have extensive testing on his compost and has the documentation to prove his claims.


----------



## pdqaltair

*Of course this is mostly true at home; would your wife encourage the practice?*



tommays said:


> To be perfectly honest if you leave the freshwater OFF and people are just peeing you can turn on the water and rinse the bowl at the end of the day.


So I think it's not a comparison point, since it is always true.


----------



## pdqaltair

*A good read on sewage and epidemic: "The Ghost Map".*



HeartsContent said:


> As a modern society we have achieved processed sewage systems so that waste does not have to be dumped in the public domain.


Book Review: The Ghost Map - The Story of London's Most Terrifying Epidemic, and How It Changed Science, Cities, and the Modern World by Steven Johnson - Blogcritics Books

How one sick child and some waste dumped in a cesspool ravaged London.

1854 Broad Street cholera outbreak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## alanr77

Quote: "Hmmm, the manuals for these toilets specifically warn not to dump in food gardens due to potential bacterial contamination.

The research that you quoted outlines very specific conditions required to make the poo safe. It's not likely that many will meet these requirements.

It's amazing that you can just filter out the material that doesn't work for you.

It's sad that you have no regard for the larger community around you and feel the world is your toilet. It's the few bad apples like this that cast a bad light on all boaters. All it's going to take is for this to impact one person and a whole new public crusade against boaters, cruising and anchoring will ignite.

As a modern society we have achieved processed sewage systems so that waste does not have to be dumped in the public domain. "

I'm trying to understand both sides of the argument here. Are we discussing the practicality of the composting head, legal issues or what to do with the waste when it comes time to dispose of it? It is very easy to directly attack someone's opinion, especially when there are facts that support both idea's. Lets try and stay objective here.

All points are valid depending on which point of view you are looking at it from. From what I have understood;

Does the airhead/natureshead make the waste safe to put in your childs sandbox? NO

Is composting bad for the environment? NO

Do some people dump raw waste into places where they should not? YES

Does everyone do this? NO

Are composting toliets better than traditional heads? OPINION

Are they more convenient- or less? OPINION

Due to modern public health standards, would putting a composting head in everyone's house be a good idea? MOST LIKELY NO

Could they work on a small scale within boats? I DONT KNOW- BUT MY OPINION IS YES. My reasoning is that when properly handled, the waste can be disposed of in a safe area that will have no impact on society. The same reasoning that prevents me from dumping porta potties in the parking lot.

Now, first let me say that personal freedom is of an *extremely* high value to me. I am adamantly against anyone imposing laws or rules on me because of what they perceive as being right. So though I do take offense to the idea that composting heads should be banned I will remain objective and try to understand your point of view. My opinion is that when properly handled, composting heads are no worse than any other type of head. Of course there will be people who abuse this equipment. Either from ignorance or simply not caring. We cannot control these people. They are the same type of people that throw their Mcdonalds bags out the car window at stoplights. My views on how to handle these people will not be discussed here.

So, HContent, what are the facts that cause you to stand against the theory of composting heads? Should there be better instructions included with the devices to explain how to properly handle the waste?

Someone elses post about three day old turkey in the trash makes a good point. No trash is safe to roll around in. So what are some suggestions?

I understand that a properly operating head does in fact work well. I have had them on 7 different boats. My only bad experience was with the 36 Y/O system on the recently purchased boat. And yes, the experience did turn me off a little. However, I am still not convinced that an airhead/natures head would be so horrible that my world would change because of it's use......


----------



## tommays

pdqaltair said:


> So I think it's not a comparison point, since it is always true.


Not the Same at all

I have spent plenty of time with standard marine heads and to empty the bowl you have to pump it

On the Sealand unit you push the foot pedal and it rotates open the bowl seal and urine runs right into the tank dirrectly below leaving a pretty dry bowl

When you remove your foot the bowl seal closes air tight


----------



## knothead

HeartsContent said:


> Hmmm, the manuals for these toilets specifically warn not to dump in food gardens due to potential bacterial contamination.
> 
> *The research that you quoted outlines very specific conditions required to make the poo safe. It's not likely that many will meet these requirements.*
> 
> It's amazing that you can just filter out the material that doesn't work for you.
> 
> It's sad that you have no regard for the larger community around you and feel the world is your toilet. It's the few bad apples like this that cast a bad light on all boaters. All it's going to take is for this to impact one person and a whole new public crusade against boaters, cruising and anchoring will ignite.
> 
> As a modern society we have achieved processed sewage systems so that waste does not have to be dumped in the public domain.


Obtuse it is then.

Those special conditions are called composting. It's not difficult. Even if the temperatures don't get high enough to kill the pathogens, all that's required is letting it sit for a couple of years.

If you had read a little about the subject you would have known that.


----------



## LandLocked66c

knothead said:


> Obtuse it is then.


That's being nice, I prefer IDIOT...


----------



## MedSailor

HeartsContent said:


> Hmmm, the manuals for these toilets specifically warn not to dump in food gardens due to potential bacterial contamination.
> 
> The research that you quoted outlines very specific conditions required to make the poo safe. It's not likely that many will meet these requirements.
> 
> It's amazing that you can just filter out the material that doesn't work for you.
> 
> It's sad that you have no regard for the larger community around you and feel the world is your toilet. It's the few bad apples like this that cast a bad light on all boaters. All it's going to take is for this to impact one person and a whole new public crusade against boaters, cruising and anchoring will ignite.
> 
> As a modern society we have achieved processed sewage systems so that waste does not have to be dumped in the public domain.


Actually Knothead, I think he's a Troll, in which case I shouldn't feed him, but on the other hand, he could be sub-IQ. He is a Mcgregor "sailor" after all.  so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and respond.

HeartsContent, I want you to raise your left hand and repeat after me: 
*"Don't eat the poo."*

Got it?

Good.

I'm glad you brought up the point about a city's sanitation system being essential to keeping people from getting sick. Part of a city's sanitation system is their garbage collection. If one uses the Nature's head as recommended in the manual (as I do) you will put the poo in a garbage bag and put it in the trash. At this point it enters the sanitation system and stays separate from food and thus. The poo is not eaten. Nobody gets sick. Diapers, cat litter and rotting food (which will all make you sick if you eat them) go in the trash, and the refuse from my toilet is not different. It's actually a whole lot like cat litter, just without the toxoplasmosis (I hope).

There is nothing selective going on here about the filtering of information. Nobody is going to get sick from my boat toilet poo, because nobody is going to eat my poo. Cholera and epidemics of the third world etc happen when poo gets in the drinking water. Nobody is going to drink my poo either. It is going to safely rot/compost away in a land fill next to the diapers, cat poo, and salmonella-covered Thanksgiving turkey. Improper hand washing after touching a poo-covered butt with only thin paper as prophylaxis is a health threat not poo/dirt in a garbage bin or land fill.

MedSailor

PS I secretly like McGregors. I think they're a very innovative sailboat design and I have a lot of respect for McGregor making them unsinkable.


----------



## neverknow

MedSailor said:


> Actually Knothead, I think he's a Troll, in which case I shouldn't feed him, but on the other hand, he could be sub-IQ. He is a Mcgregor "sailor" after all.  so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and respond.


So I have to ask what do you mean by "I think he's a troll"????

Is it because he doesn't agree with you? Because I don't really either. See I own a land based composting toilet and have had it for over 10 yrs. But still don't think I'd want one on a boat especially if we were to live aboard or use it more than a few times a week. That's just my opinion, oh and the rest of the family here agrees. When I told them about this thread they all said "no way"... So maybe we are all trolls too????

It was our suggestion that before dismantlement your holding tank system you actually spend some time aboard a boat with a composting toilet. Than decide. They are not for everyone.


----------



## mitchbrown

Thought it might ad to this by saying that most landfills except septic from pump rigs. it is pretty standard for septic pumpers to unload at the land fill. the idea that a bag of poo at the land fill is going to kill society is quite absurd really.

Mitch


----------



## MedSailor

neverknow said:


> So I have to ask what do you mean by "I think he's a troll"????
> 
> Is it because he doesn't agree with you? Because I don't really either.


No not at all. I try and respect others opinions in a debate. These issues of public health are not really issues of "opinion" though, they're settled by science. There are too many epidemiologists and Masters of Public Health that have worked these issues to death. It's hard to take someone at face value who sticks to a belief that is so contradictory to well researched and established knowledge. Some people really like stirring up the pot on forums, hence the term "troll".

Medsailor


----------



## neverknow

I can see some of the concern about disposing of the waste. If someone lived in a very small housing addition and they just dumped the stuff in their little flower bed that's only feet away from the neighbors tomato plants that might be a problem. 

But with proper care and precautions there would not be a issue. Certainly not for a land fill. There are far worse things in land fills to worry about.


----------



## chrisncate

Question: Do the composting head detractors ever eat Chinese take out?

Just wondering..


----------



## RedtheBear

The Bears two cents:...
I would hate to count the many cities and towns that are empting incompletly processed sewage into creeks and rivers in this country. Terseary threatment of raw sewage is the law in every state that outputs it's processed sewage in public waters but the systems have not been upgraded because of costs and limited action by inspection officals. Don't tell me how wonderful modern sewage systems are when we have to stop the consumtion of fish is certain waters because of industrial polution, place warning signs of polution on ocean beaches, we have much bigger problems than my placeing a garbage bag of partially processed humature into a special compost pile in my back yard maybe one or twice a year. 
My dogs and cat poo go into a compost pile in the back yard and belive me they are great contriputors. This is my second such pile, the first is now over five years old. It is a bin 4' x 4' x 4' high. It is lined with plastic around the sides and fork turned about once a month. I add grass clippings to it two to three times a month as the yard produces. The product of the first bin is now being added to my flower beds, not my garden, and the results have been extreamly beautiful. My neighbors did not even know that the piles existed until I showed them when they wanted to know how I kept my flowers looking so great. 
When you bring up the bacterial contamination in third world nations and in cities, you are not talking about properly composted product but raw sewage! Yes in the streets, in ditches along the side of roads. Yes, because these people do not have even the vagest degree of sanitation systems. Many of their cities, villages, have nothing that you or I would consider an even primitave system. And yes I avoid these areas when every I can, and my WHO card is over an inch thick.
Think about this, I can remember when out in the woods you could fill your canteen from a swift running creek and never think about it. The woods were thick with animals and birds and I'm sure they didn't pay any attention as to where or how much they pooped. Nature took care of it and everything worked. Now I filter my water from the tap that comes from my water company. We sell bottles of water so you can not have to drink from a fountain. Did I miss something?
Composting is a natural thing, mother earth has been doing it for longer than humans have been screwing up this world. Is it for every condition? NO! Does it need to be done correctly? Yes! Does it work when done correctly? Definately! Is a admittaly partial composting toilet a vivable solution? In certain cases, IF the rules are followed.
I shall now dismount my soap box and duck.


----------



## ewoden

I am struck by the repeated statements in this thread that dumping your waste down the drain is a zero environmental impact scenario. First, transport, disposal, and treatment takes water, a lot of it. To my miond using treated drinking water to dispose of waste is non-sustainable and not green. Second in situations, and they occur often, where wasterwater treatment effluent requires final chemical treatment to address high coliforme loads, this involves chlorine treatment usually with the attendant production of chlorinated hydrocarbon by products. Not necessarily benign environmental stuff. Third, effiiency of nutrient removal in any treatment plant is a product of volume and holding time, too much of the former can adversely affect the later. Remove your small portion of the stream and you might be striking a small blow for staving off millions in facility improvements (I say this with tongue incheek, but hey as long as we are arguing here). Further, in many municipalities there still exist CSO systems. When it rains, raw sewage still enters waterways so your $4it may not end up where you think it is going. Finally, just where do you think your solids waste ends up? Well, after aerobic treatment, composting, and drying it is likely put back on the land, on crop land actually, oh and in the home Depot soil ammendment you put in your garden. Conversely I imagine there are still facilities that incinerate it...green as well? 

I'm going to experiment with the compost approach at home first. If it passes the "gross test" with the significant other (and I mean that can be one tough test) I will construct a unit for my weekend boat. If my experience there proves viable for my lifestyle I will explore a commercial unit for longer term use aboard.


----------



## pdqaltair

*One problem with forums as an information sorce is that many folks oversimplify...*



ewoden said:


> I am struck by the repeated statements in this thread that dumping your waste down the drain is a zero environmental impact scenario. First, transport, disposal, and treatment takes water, a lot of it. To my miond using treated drinking water to dispose of waste is non-sustainable and not green. Second in situations, and they occur often, where wasterwater treatment effluent requires final chemical treatment to address high coliforme loads, this involves chlorine treatment usually with the attendant production of chlorinated hydrocarbon by products. Not necessarily benign environmental stuff. Third, effiiency of nutrient removal in any treatment plant is a product of volume and holding time, too much of the former can adversely affect the later. Remove your small portion of the stream and you might be striking a small blow for staving off millions in facility improvements (I say this with tongue incheek, but hey as long as we are arguing here). Further, in many municipalities there still exist CSO systems. When it rains, raw sewage still enters waterways so your $4it may not end up where you think it is going. Finally, just where do you think your solids waste ends up? Well, after aerobic treatment, composting, and drying it is likely put back on the land, on crop land actually, oh and in the home Depot soil ammendment you put in your garden. Conversely I imagine there are still facilities that incinerate it...green as well?
> 
> I'm going to experiment with the compost approach at home first. If it passes the "gross test" with the significant other (and I mean that can be one tough test) I will construct a unit for my weekend boat. If my experience there proves viable for my lifestyle I will explore a commercial unit for longer term use aboard.


... their answers. Heck, we're not paid for this. Libraries and more technical on-line sites can be better.

Assuming we are talking about a modern advanced wastewater treatment plant (some aren't and some discharge without treatment, but that's a very different discussion), there are few statements above deserving either discussion or correction.

* "Transport, disposal, and treatment takes water, a lot of it." Basically none. It is also basically illegal to add significant amounts of freshwater to wastewater for dilution or during treatment; check your local city code. I've designed and operated wastewater plants and we never used measurable amounts of city water. Only for drinking.

* "To my mind using treated drinking water to dispose of waste is non-sustainable and not green." Pure fallacy. Perhaps you are thinking of the flush water. But we flush with the water we are floating in and return it days later, so there is no water usage. The water cycle has been sustained for billions of years.

* "... where wasterwater treatment effluent requires final chemical treatment to address high coliforme loads, this involves chlorine treatment usually with the attendant production of chlorinated hydrocarbon by products." Part truth. With good treatment very little chlorine is used, only a few parts per million. Yes, there are halocarbons formed-low parts per billion--and the difference in what is acceptable discharged into the ocean and into drinking water is huge. These products will degrade in time; they are not durable molecules, like PCBs or such.

* Nutrient removal is not so much related to time as food:mass ratio and other design parameters. Asking "how long does it take waste to degrade" is like asking "how long does a bag of dog food last"; it depends a lot on the dogs. Plants are designed to reduce the time by recycling the best bacteria. Unless you understand the specific design very well, you cannot correlate time to effectiveness. A POTW can do in hours what takes nature many months.

I have no problem with composting. Love it and there is no problem where people have the space and take sufficient care. But let's not exaggerate the negatives of POTW disposal. I could find fault in composting, but I won't try. That only leads to exaggerated finger pointing on both sides.

To determine if a "dry" toilet is better, the real questions are these:

* Is it easier to pump out or to compost? The answer will be different for each boat and sailor and will vary regionally. No single answer.
* Is it cheaper? Generally a dry system is cheaper, it seems, though not so different if we compare equal quality. Very minor, compared to the boat.
* Is there less maintenance? IMHO, no. I have seen both and they are simply different. Both are easy once you understand them.
* Is it more odor free? Both can be acceptable and both can be bad. IMHO, MSD systems can reach zero odor, like home. dry systems are not quite there. That won't be acceptable to all.
* Yuck factor. It's not just you, it's the wife and family and friends. I'm skipping the details, but I've been told "hell no" by most people.
* Resale value. I doubt it will help, unless you find just the right buyer. Generally it will hurt. That is what the yacht broker told me. The bigger the boat, the greater the harm.

I would seriously consider a dry head for a trailer boat or small boat near home. Other wise....


----------



## ewoden

Water to transport and operate the system is included in flush water, yes that is what I am referring . The point being that is not a zero in its volume, indeed many millions of gallons for even a modest size town. Water use for human purposes poses environmental impacts. If you live in the eastern US, water use issues are not a big debate. In contrast, for sourthern California and heck the Carib. Islands, it is a sustainability issue. I suppose we might debate waste stream use versus ag, industry, etc but again the point is it is not devoid of environmental impact. Regarding balance between intake and discharge to what we float in, I find your logic unconvincing. It is an issue not so much of total mass of water in and out but diversion and distribution. In California, diversion of western apline freshwater head stream water through pipes to the toilets of tens of millions of citizens and on out to the coastal estuaries, bypassing the natural catchments, has not been without substantial impacts to many river systems and a variety of species. We could debate the magnitude of such impacts as compared to agriculture in say the Central Valley but the point again is it is not a zero environmental impact.

Glad you agree that halomethanes and the like are a consequence of chlorination albeit under certain conditions the extent can vary. They are toxic, mutagenic and while the dose makes the poison, being privy to the decisions involved in setting allowable limits in discharge permits it is evident that such levels still produce biological response in receiving waters. It is a question of cost benefit, setting limits sustained by best available technology etc. The ecological and human health risk are not zero, but rather acceptable given the scenario under evaluation.. So once more it is not a zero effect and therefore obviates the assumption of zero environmental impact. And we have not even touched on the discharges of pharmaceuticals in the human municipal wastewater stream, the inability for existing tratment to achieve removalof such compounds and theior entry to receiving waters. Again not without environmental consequence and so not zero environmental impact.

While conceding design parameters for waterwater plants vary, one must recognize that throughput in excess of designed capacity either means reduced tratent efficiency or results in the need for expanded infrastructure. Poor nutirent removal, or he construction of more treatment capacity would not be devoid of environmental impact. Again the point is it is not zero. And we still have the issue of CSO's in municipalities that result in a lack of waste water treatment under high precipitation events.

Finally running sewage system requires energy, energy to lift stations, energy to run the batch systems, energy to monitor functions, energy to maintain the system. Good or bad, better or worse these are not zero impacts as well.

I am not trying to make an argument that boat-related human waste composting is "greener" than municipal waterwater treatment post pumpout. I was only observing that the "flush and forget" excuse that there is zero impact associated with ones contribution to wastewater treatment is spurious.

Regarding your questions posed I agree they are pertinent to ascertaining which method is right for one's situation. Ugly, beautiful, smelly or sweet, hard or easy are largely subjective though. Hence my own experiment into how well composting works for me. I got good ideas from this string and quite a few chuckles regarding folks misconceptions of different technologies and their own tastes. But it allhelps me frame my problem formulation and the tests I need to conduct.

I don't have ready access to pump out so it is not as easy for me to go that route vs composting. Your mileage may vary. 

Resale of a used boat is so pitifully deflated at this point that flush head, porta potty, or composting would not likely avail one of a significant recoup of investment at this point, and really anyone expecting such return on a boat is probably way too hopeful. Maybe woquestion isbest framed which would have a bigger market pool. Incidentally I have a Thetford recirculating head in my boat at this time. Ha, anyone remember these little beauties? Recirculating chemical laden fecal/urine waste as flush water is a concept I tell ya that the significant other finds tantamount to supergluing live rats to the seat so it is all gravy from tis point forward 

Peace.


----------



## ewoden

So I have reached 52 and in celebration, like a kid rushing down to the family room on Christmas morning ready to tear into the boxes containing my Red Ryder BB gun and HotWheel cars, I scampered down to the utility room to investigate day one progress on the newly constucted experimental composting, er modlering, head. I'm a dedicated scientist so I even skipped morning coffee and toast to rush to my, er, 5-gallon petri dish. 

I was greeted at the door to the utility room by Chester the wonderdog, tail wagging, head down as if to say "Whatever you encounter on the other side of this door, I DIDN'T DO IT!!!" Reassuring the dog and convincing myself that canines can hear and smell things far beyond the capabilities of mortal men, I entered the room. I was careful to hold my breath until door was closed behind me. Hey if it is gonna stink, I need to know how bad it gets without dilution, cuz that's how it will be on the boat. Opening one eye, carefully, nope no obvious color change to the ambient air No change in lacrimation in said eye Both eyes open, nope no congregation of household vermine around the subject apparatus  

There, on the floor in all of its low tech glory sat my experimental head. The vent fan was purring away, producing a slight ripple to the cardbord vent port, proof of its succcessful aeration. I take a tentative sniff of the surrounding air...nothing. I step to directly above the machine, tentative sniff....nothing. I lowered the face to a foot from the exit vent. I feel the cool breeze of the system in action upon my unshaven cheek. Sniff, nothing...no wait the slight odor of.....sawdust. Eureka!!!!!!!!!

So one "man-unit" of waste and 12 hours of operation later with no detectable unpleasantry. Tonight torture test one...curry at luchtime!!!!


----------



## erps

> I scampered down to the utility room to investigate day one progress on the newly constucted experimental composting, er modlering, head. I'm a dedicated scientist so I even skipped morning coffee and toast to rush to my, er, 5-gallon petri dish.


What medium did you use in your experiment to drop you poop into?


----------



## LandLocked66c

erps said:


> What medium did you use in your experiment to drop you poop into?


Sounds like he used sawdust. Er, smelled like rather...


----------



## RobGallagher

ewoden said:


> So I have reached 52 and in celebration, like a kid rushing down to the family room on Christmas morning ready to tear into the boxes containing my Red Ryder BB gun and HotWheel cars, I scampered down to the utility room to investigate day one progress on the newly constucted experimental composting, er modlering, head. I'm a dedicated scientist so I even skipped morning coffee and toast to rush to my, er, 5-gallon petri dish.
> 
> I was greeted at the door to the utility room by Chester the wonderdog, tail wagging, head down as if to say "Whatever you encounter on the other side of this door, I DIDN'T DO IT!!!" Reassuring the dog and convincing myself that canines can hear and smell things far beyond the capabilities of mortal men, I entered the room. I was careful to hold my breath until door was closed behind me. Hey if it is gonna stink, I need to know how bad it gets without dilution, cuz that's how it will be on the boat. Opening one eye, carefully, nope no obvious color change to the ambient air No change in lacrimation in said eye Both eyes open, nope no congregation of household vermine around the subject apparatus
> 
> There, on the floor in all of its low tech glory sat my experimental head. The vent fan was purring away, producing a slight ripple to the cardbord vent port, proof of its succcessful aeration. I take a tentative sniff of the surrounding air...nothing. I step to directly above the machine, tentative sniff....nothing. I lowered the face to a foot from the exit vent. I feel the cool breeze of the system in action upon my unshaven cheek. Sniff, nothing...no wait the slight odor of.....sawdust. Eureka!!!!!!!!!
> 
> So one "man-unit" of waste and 12 hours of operation later with no detectable unpleasantry. Tonight torture test one...curry at luchtime!!!!


Now that's what I call SCIENCE!

Keep us posted. We eagerly await...


----------



## ewoden

*Media*



erps said:


> What medium did you use in your experiment to drop you poop into?


Dust from my power miter saw. It consists of some unknown species of pine and a wee bit of red oak, both kiln dried.

I have a bag of potting soil and one of some cat litter made from wheat gluten or some such to try next.

Personally opposed to peat moss use baauseI know where that comes from and how it is mined. Some very memorable experiences come from peat bog exploration so I hate to see them dug up.


----------



## knothead

ewoden said:


> Dust from my power miter saw. It consists of some unknown species of pine and a wee bit of red oak, both kiln dried.
> 
> I have a bag of potting soil and one of some cat litter made from wheat gluten or some such to try next.
> 
> Personally opposed to peat moss use baauseI know where that comes from and how it is mined. Some very memorable experiences come from peat bog exploration so I hate to see them dug up.


From my experience I have discovered a couple of things about cover material that I would like to share. 
I'm using sawdust also, but I've found that it's important for it to be slightly moist. It blocks the odor much better. I also take the time to mix in about 1/4 by volume of biochar. It's my personal opinion that the charcoal helps absorb odor. Remember, my system does not use a fan at all but is a simple bucket emptied once a week. I can't really prove the biochar helps with the odor since there is none, but at the very least it is a valuable additive for the finished compost.


----------



## MedSailor

ewoden said:


> Dust from my power miter saw. It consists of some unknown species of pine and a wee bit of red oak, both kiln dried.
> 
> I have a bag of potting soil and one of some cat litter made from wheat gluten or some such to try next.
> 
> Personally opposed to peat moss use baauseI know where that comes from and how it is mined. Some very memorable experiences come from peat bog exploration so I hate to see them dug up.


Not only is peat moss non-renewable and damaging to the ecosystem it is harvested from, when we used it it came with bug eggs that hatched into a bunch of compost-larva. Nearly put the wife off the whole project!

Coconut coir is what we use. Compressed bricks expand many-fold to form a large quantity of a nice dirt-like substance. When they're dry and compressed they're easy to store, light weight and field expedient for boat storage and usage.










Coconut Coir:www.cosmiccoir.com - Coco coir, Coconut coir, Coco peat, Hydroponics, Best coco coir, Growing media, Clean super washed, Coconut peat, Coco pith, Coco coir chips, Coconut husk chips

MedSailor


----------



## HeartsContent

MedSailor said:


> Not only is peat moss non-renewable and damaging to the ecosystem it is harvested from, when we used it it came with bug eggs that hatched into a bunch of compost-larva. Nearly put the wife off the whole project!
> 
> Coconut coir is what we use. Compressed bricks expand many-fold to form a large quantity of a nice dirt-like substance. When they're dry and compressed they're easy to store, light weight and field expedient for boat storage and usage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coconut Coir:www.cosmiccoir.com - Coco coir, Coconut coir, Coco peat, Hydroponics, Best coco coir, Growing media, Clean super washed, Coconut peat, Coco pith, Coco coir chips, Coconut husk chips
> 
> MedSailor


That's the point I was making earlier. This is not actually composting which is a very environmentally safe and responsible activity.

1. Urine goes over the side. If it's no big deal then invite your neighbors to pee in your pool!
2. Pooh gets dumped somewhere on land, could be laced with fecal bacteria that can cause sickness (unless you store it for a few years - yah right!).

Portable or pump out heads are way above this standard and can easily be disposed of in a responsible and non-environmentally fashion.

You either care or you don't - karma.


----------



## PaulfromNWOnt

OK.... here we go....



HeartsContent said:


> That's the point I was making earlier. This is not actually composting which is a very environmentally safe and responsible activity.
> 
> 1. Urine goes over the side. If it's no big deal then invite your neighbors to pee in your pool!


Have you considered what wildlife does when it has to go potti? I can assure you that they don't hold it until they are away from the water. If your sailboat can produce as much urine in a year as one whale in one shot, I'd be mighty impressed. Backyard pool doesn't even fit into the same category as a natural ecosystem that both feeds on the nutrients, and is HUGE in comparison.



> 2. Pooh gets dumped somewhere on land, could be laced with fecal bacteria that can cause sickness (unless you store it for a few years - yah right!).


Are you aware of what sewage plant effluent contains? Look it up, I'm not a teacher, and I'm sure you're old enough to look into the stats for your own municipality.



> Portable or pump out heads are way above this standard and can easily be disposed of in a responsible and non-environmentally fashion.


Really....



> You either care or you don't - karma.


Either you spout rhetoric based on xenophobic opinion, or you get the facts and you don't. - Science.


----------



## pdqaltair

PaulfromNWOnt said:


> OK.... here we go....
> 
> Have you considered what wildlife does when it has to go potti? I can assure you that they don't hold it until they are away from the water. If your sailboat can produce as much urine in a year as one whale in one shot, I'd be mighty impressed. Backyard pool doesn't even fit into the same category as a natural ecosystem that both feeds on the nutrients, and is HUGE in comparison.
> 
> Are you aware of what sewage plant effluent contains? Look it up, I'm not a teacher, and I'm sure you're old enough to look into the stats for your own municipality.
> 
> Really....
> 
> Either you spout rhetoric based on xenophobic opinion, or you get the facts and you don't. - Science.


:laugher
I'm sorry, but the first 2 paragraphs and the last one are in sharp contrast. Each side of the debate seems equally able to select only useful arguments. and reduce counter arguments to the absurd.

Perhaps a few links would be interesting. I'm not saying what these add up to; my opinion is mixed and not set.

EPA fact sheet.
http://water.epa.gov/aboutow/owm/upload/2005_07_14_comp.pdf

An interesting early attempt.
Henry Moule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The don't seem to be many NSF approved devices. But I haven't researched this.
NSF Certified Products - Wastewater Treatment Units and Related Products, components and Materials
Excel Composting Toilet by Sun-Mar
Do Air Head or Nature's Head have any EPA or NSF approvals? I didn't see them on the web sites. Based on the other reading and their size, I'm fairly sure they would fail and so have not tried.

Type 1 MSDS have been subjected to NSF testing and approval. However, since they are discharging into the water, this is a different thing. Do remember, however, that since the influent is ~20x more concentrated than normal POTW influent (as determined by BOD5--no shower or flushing water) that the results should be divided by 20x.
http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/pubs/600r10008/600r10008.pdf

NIH evaluation of dry heads.
Survival of Fecal Coliforms in Dry-Composting Toilets

Clearly septic tank waste and diapers are allowed in landfills.
http://www.epa.gov/osw/nonhaz/municipal/landfill/criteria/landbig.pdf

So, there is some science and some regulations. I seems to me that the non-MSD boat heads fall in the gaps somewhere; a regulator is going to see them as porta-potties I guess, since they neither discharge nor compost (to NSF standards). They simply dump solids rather than liquids. Real and perceived health and environmental hazards vary with the disposal in both cases, and are minimal--too small to fight over--in either case if managed well. As for mismanagement (over the side, mate, or just throw that under the bushes), well, that's just fight territory.


----------



## robinhood007

woow
interesting topic
thx for posting


----------



## ewoden

HeartsContent said:


> 2. Pooh gets dumped somewhere on land, could be laced with fecal bacteria that can cause sickness (unless you store it for a few years - yah right!).
> -QUOTE]
> 
> Years? Bit of an huperbolic statement. Consult holding times at 30 C on page 5 of this EPA fact sheet. http://water.epa.gov/aboutow/owm/upload/2005_07_14_comp.pdf
> 
> Seems summer storage in a container in the sun ought to kill things in a matter of weeks, provided it is kept aerobic, and moist. Hey if you want to flush and forget, taking no more responsibility on, have at it and pump ut or dump to a land head.. I myself enjoy the challenges of doing appropriate disposal independent of the municipality.


----------



## pdqaltair

*I'm not sure the "crops" collumn is correct.*



ewoden said:


> HeartsContent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Pooh gets dumped somewhere on land, could be laced with fecal bacteria that can cause sickness (unless you store it for a few years - yah right!).
> -QUOTE]
> 
> Years? Bit of an huperbolic statement. Consult holding times at 30 C on page 5 of this EPA fact sheet. http://water.epa.gov/aboutow/owm/upload/2005_07_14_comp.pdf
> 
> Seems summer storage in a container in the sun ought to kill things in a matter of weeks, provided it is kept aerobic, and moist. Hey if you want to flush and forget, taking no more responsibility on, have at it and pump ut or dump to a land head.. I myself enjoy the challenges of doing appropriate disposal independent of the municipality.
> 
> 
> 
> The soil collumn states 50-120 days. For most of us, some of those days will be below freezing and don't fully count (document stated 20-30C), unless composting is active enough to generate heat. But more than 120 days should not be a problem in a shore-based compost pile.
Click to expand...


----------



## ewoden

knothead said:


> I also take the time to mix in about 1/4 by volume of biochar. It's my personal opinion that the charcoal helps absorb odor. Remember, my system does not use a fan at all but is a simple bucket emptied once a week. I can't really prove the biochar helps with the odor since there is none, but at the very least it is a valuable additive for the finished compost.


At last another use for my wood stove waste.


----------



## ewoden

pdqaltair said:


> ewoden said:
> 
> 
> 
> The soil collumn states 50-120 days. For most of us, some of those days will be below freezing and don't fully count (document stated 20-30C), unless composting is active enough to generate heat. But more than 120 days should not be a problem in a shore-based compost pile.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually doesn't it state <120 days and usually <50 days? So I'd say this is compatable even at worst case.
Click to expand...


----------



## pdqaltair

ewoden said:


> pdqaltair said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually doesn't it state <120 days and usually <50 days? So I'd say this is compatable even at worst case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still picking facts you like....
> 
> No, not all worst cases. For example, I'm still sailing and it won't hit 35F today. No composting activity. I would need to hold the material until perhaps May or June.
> 
> But I can put it in the trash or wait that long. and that may be OK.
Click to expand...


----------



## PaulfromNWOnt

@pdq:

I work in water/wastewater. When I consider the arguments here about environmental responsibility when it comes to sewage, I usually just chuckle. But in the interest of clarity, a lake or ocean is a very large ecosystem that will have no trouble absorbing the effluent from the typical density of recreational boaters. Some may have higher densities and larger issues, but I'm talking averages. If you peed in your neighbours pool, he might get uptight if he found out, but realistically it would only cause his chemical/filtration costs to go up. Remember, urine is water with a nutrient content which can either be chemically inactivated or filtered.

As to the 'other' waste product being discussed. Don't eat it, it's not good for you. If you mix it by hand, make sure you wash them very well before eating your sandwich. If the thought of it being dumped under a random tree or a dumpster upsets you, then you might want to watch pet owners very carefully when they're out walking fido.

I love interweb debates. :/


----------



## ewoden

pdqaltair said:


> ewoden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still picking facts you like....
> 
> 
> 
> Ha ha the difficulty with electronic exchange or perhaps a quote betraying a desire to seem scholarly and incontrovertible. Obviously I can't tell without knowing the poster personally not base concludion on this exchange to this point so I'll assume the former and chalk it up to poor communication on my part
> 
> To recap:I intitially responded to a point by another saying composting boat waste off the boat would take years. I pointed to a document referenced elsewhere that showed pathogenic performance at 30 to 80 C. I concluded a container in the sun would be compatable with such consitions (as an aside I know I can maintain said temps in the sun from solar heating design efforts). Again I was referring to a table showing performance at temps between 30 and 80 C. The poster quoted above chose to interpret said table as establishing limits from 50 to 120 days. That was incorrect and I pointed that out and indicated a worst case in the table of less that 120 days...again it is a table at 30 to 80 C. Politely I pointed this out I might add. Quote above is countered by an _ad hominem_ attack alledging some bias on my part and adding in conditions outside the referenced table parameters and outside the intitial point of the post response.
> 
> I never said anything about a cold boat anywhere in the string and nowhere reference data for conditions below 30C and did not insintuate that referenced shoulddata apply to other conditions. Therefore I believe it inappropriate for one to assume my string of exchange had done so or that I misapplied or biased any facts in the discussion.
> 
> So having said my piece and defended my honor, I'll now lay down the pen and let the quoted poster conclude they have in some way put me in my place; chastised me appropriately for my obvious lack of intellectual rigor; and perhaps provide further opportunity for the development of a data set for me to test my hypothesis about the quoted poster's motivation. Peace.
> :laugher:laugher:laugher
Click to expand...


----------



## knothead

ewoden said:


> At last another use for my wood stove waste.


I recommend that you sift out as much ash as possible before pulverizing the charcoal. Ash does not help composting at all. 
Don't ask me how I discovered that.


----------



## ewoden

PaulfromNWOnt said:


> If you mix it by hand, make sure you wash them very well before eating your sandwich.


After a couple of days "hands on" with my prototype I do have one observation I believe worth noting. Stirring, agitating the container, etc. without an airstream vented outside would tend to generate fine particulate suspended in the atmosphere as things dry. The extent to which this dust might be contaminated with fecal associated pathogens is something I heretofore have not considered. This might be a point to consider when one thinks about where this apparatus is to be used, i.e a rolling pitching boat with limited ventillation below decks.


----------



## ewoden

knothead said:


> I recommend that you sift out as much ash as possible before pulverizing the charcoal. Ash does not help composting at all.
> Don't ask me how I discovered that.


Yep I usually do this to keep the extinquished coals for the next burn so keeping those coarse bits of charcoal for alternative purposes would be easily doable.

Without a vent have you encountered much in the way of dust as your system dries?


----------



## pdqaltair

ewoden said:


> pdqaltair said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ha ha the difficulty with electronic exchange or perhaps a quote betraying a desire to seem scholarly and incontrovertible. Obviously I can't tell without knowing the poster personally not base concludion on this exchange to this point so I'll assume the former and chalk it up to poor communication on my part
> 
> To recap:I intitially responded to a point by another saying composting boat waste off the boat would take years. I pointed to a document referenced elsewhere that showed pathogenic performance at 30 to 80 C. I concluded a container in the sun would be compatable with such consitions (as an aside I know I can maintain said temps in the sun from solar heating design efforts). Again I was referring to a table showing performance at temps between 30 and 80 C. The poster quoted above chose to interpret said table as establishing limits from 50 to 120 days. That was incorrect and I pointed that out and indicated a worst case in the table of less that 120 days...again it is a table at 30 to 80 C. Politely I pointed this out I might add. Quote above is countered by an _ad hominem_ attack alledging some bias on my part and adding in conditions outside the referenced table parameters and outside the intitial point of the post response.
> 
> I never said anything about a cold boat anywhere in the string and nowhere reference data for conditions below 30C and did not insintuate that referenced shoulddata apply to other conditions. Therefore I believe it inappropriate for one to assume my string of exchange had done so or that I misapplied or biased any facts in the discussion.
> 
> So having said my piece and defended my honor, I'll now lay down the pen and let the quoted poster conclude they have in some way put me in my place; chastised me appropriately for my obvious lack of intellectual rigor; and perhaps provide further opportunity for the development of a data set for me to test my hypothesis about the quoted poster's motivation. Peace.
> :laugher:laugher:laugher
> 
> 
> 
> Now that's more fun!
> 
> Weez just playin' with ya.
Click to expand...


----------



## PaulfromNWOnt

ewoden said:


> After a couple of days "hands on" with my prototype I do have one observation I believe worth noting. Stirring, agitating the container, etc. without an airstream vented outside would tend to generate fine particulate suspended in the atmosphere as things dry. The extent to which this dust might be contaminated with fecal associated pathogens is something I heretofore have not considered. This might be a point to consider when one thinks about where this apparatus is to be used, i.e a rolling pitching boat with limited ventillation below decks.


Actually dude, I meant literally "by hand" as in 'with' your hands. lol

The other point you brought up does bear further consideration though.


----------



## knothead

ewoden said:


> Yep I usually do this to keep the extinquished coals for the next burn so keeping those coarse bits of charcoal for alternative purposes would be easily doable.
> 
> Without a vent have you encountered much in the way of dust as your system dries?


No. As I wrote in a previous post. It's important for the cover material to be slightly damp. So I don't really have any dust problems.
Also, I don't believe that there is any reason to agitate, stir or vent the toilet. All you have to do is _cover_ whatever you deposit in it. It is necessary to have a tool, in my case it's a flat, perforated, stainless steel, scoop type of thing, to scoop up and distribute the cover material and with which to combat the "pyramid" effect. (use your imagination)
I empty my bucket once a week. It's usually about half full. The contents are primarily moist sawdust. There is virtually zero odor. Even when emptying it onto the top of the compost pile where it's covered and watered. 
This is such a simple process, it makes me a little crazy hearing it so often described as being complicated and difficult. It does require a commitment of time but it only takes a little common sense and the ability to read. 
I've been doing it for over two years using what is no more complicated than a bucket in a box. It's in the garage where my wife does her laundry and she has never once noticed a smell.

This book should be required reading for anyone considering composting their poop. It used to be free to download but not anymore. I bet it could be found in the library though.

http://humanurehandbook.com/downloads/H2_all.pdf


----------



## ewoden

pdqaltair said:


> ewoden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that's more fun!
> 
> Weez just playin' with ya.
> 
> 
> 
> Then we are all GTG.
> 
> Now the girlfriend comes over tonight and I will proudly display my prototype. She's got a pretty open mind, putting up with me at this point. Heck this isn't the first experiment she's endured.
> 
> If she turns up nose? It's back to the tank. Life is just too sort to let the crapper dictate my love life.
Click to expand...


----------



## ewoden

Girlfriend upon inspection of the prototype "It's gonna smell" looks at me quizzically, turns and exits utility room.....Hmmm exterior vent for sure, I'm not giving up yet


----------



## pdqaltair

*Seems like you've got the process and prioreties straight!*



ewoden said:


> Girlfriend upon inspection of the prototype "It's gonna smell" looks at me quizzically, turns and exits utility room.....Hmmm exterior vent for sure, I'm not giving up yet


I've used this computer fan in the head and also in a compost/biofilter system on some pet cages. It should last ~ 2 years continuous duty in this humidity.
Sail Delmarva: "A Bathroom Fan": or "No Blog Could be Complete Without a Tale of Head Repairs"

Solar vents would certainly work, but $$$.... In my case, I already have enough panels. Screen the outlet for

Part of my interest in composting heads comes from my interest in biofilters for odors, some processing several thousand cfm of wastewater, refinery, or sanitary stink. I've built many. It is simple to build an animal cage, for example, where anything that misses litter boxes falls through and composts, and all of the cage air, along with the sanitary stink, is drawn through a 3- to 6-inch mulch bed, which eats the odor. I believe that is the effect we are actually seeing in some of these "composting heads." We are not really composting the waste, but we are cleaning the stick through biofiltration.

http://www.manure.umn.edu/assets/biofilters.pdf


----------



## GaryHLucas

pdqaltair said:


> I've used this computer fan in the head and also in a compost/biofilter system on some pet cages. It should last ~ 2 years continuous duty in this humidity.
> Sail Delmarva: "A Bathroom Fan": or "No Blog Could be Complete Without a Tale of Head Repairs"
> 
> Solar vents would certainly work, but $$$.... In my case, I already have enough panels. Screen the outlet for
> 
> Part of my interest in composting heads comes from my interest in biofilters for odors, some processing several thousand cfm of wastewater, refinery, or sanitary stink. I've built many. It is simple to build an animal cage, for example, where anything that misses litter boxes falls through and composts, and all of the cage air, along with the sanitary stink, is drawn through a 3- to 6-inch mulch bed, which eats the odor. I believe that is the effect we are actually seeing in some of these "composting heads." We are not really composting the waste, but we are cleaning the stick through biofiltration.
> 
> http://www.manure.umn.edu/assets/biofilters.pdf


Speaking of biofilters. I built a Membrane Bioreactor (MBR) waste water treatment plant for a 300 unit assisted living community in Maryland about 5 years ago. We have drum screen at the front end in a separate room which stinks unbelievably bad. Our rep in the are suggested pulling the air used for aeration of the bioreactor from the screen room, lowering it's pressure and pulling air in instead of allowing the smell out. The smelly air gets bubbled up through the bioreactor and at the top there is a very slight yeasty smell which we exhaust out of the building through a vent pipe.

After the plant had been running for a couple of months we hosted a luncheon for about 100 wastewater professionals right inside the operating plant, next to the waste tanks! One guy stood up and said in 30 years of working in the industry he had never eaten his lunch in a wastewater plant, let alone serve lunch to 100 people there! Everyone was really impressed with how well this worked. In every other plant I have been in the smell control systems simply don't work, or else cost tons of money to operate.

Gary H. Lucas


----------



## ewoden

pdqaltair said:


> I've used this computer fan in the head and also in a compost/biofilter system on some pet cages. It should last ~ 2 years continuous duty in this humidity.
> Sail Delmarva: "A Bathroom Fan": or "No Blog Could be Complete Without a Tale of Head Repairs"
> 
> Solar vents would certainly work, but $$$.... In my case, I already have enough panels. Screen the outlet for ....


Yep I scored a small 40mm on a side, <0.07A fan from local Microcenter. She's a weeee tiny little thing, 5 cfm at 3200 rpm. Judging by the prototypes low, Ahem, signature I figure a few head box volume exchanges every 5 or ten minutes ought to t=do nicely. In my first vent attmpt I'll run an air flow through tubing the size of the existing holding tank vent on the boat as that will be my preferred method on board if it will maintain enough airflow out of the boat. Since this little fan draws so little, I'll atempt power first by a small solar charger. If that fails, then connection to house power via the old recirculating head pump circuit. If the little fan proves insufficient, then a bigger fan (i have several computer pullouts, as either solar ventillator or computer fan connected to the old pump-out fitting with a 1 1/2 npt elbow rigged to keep things dry.


----------



## alanr77

Quote: "I've been doing it for over two years using what is no more complicated than a bucket in a box. It's in the garage where my wife does her laundry and she has never once noticed a smell."

You crap in your garage? Next to the laundry machine?.........:laugher

Sorry, could not let that go...


----------



## pdqaltair

*He must have done something very, very bad...*



alanr77 said:


> Quote: "I've been doing it for over two years using what is no more complicated than a bucket in a box. It's in the garage where my wife does her laundry and she has never once noticed a smell."
> 
> You crap in your garage? Next to the laundry machine?.........:laugher
> 
> Sorry, could not let that go...


... to get locked out for 2 years. My wife lets me in the house, most days.
Of course, she makes me do the laundry.


----------



## ewoden

Oh heck if she's gonna let me keep the crapper iffin' I wash my own skivvies, then I'm in 

I do find addressing the problems of solid sanitary waste disposal far less vexing than the pleasing of the feminine heart. And I am still opposed to the flush and forget appraoch for either.


----------



## RobGallagher

ewoden said:


> I do find addressing the problems of solid sanitary waste disposal far less vexing than the pleasing of the feminine heart.


Heart? You could have ended that sentence so much more interestingly


----------



## Brent Swain

I built my own composting head, several years ago. Works well . Cost me under $25 for materials. I use the rotting vegitation one finds under old moss covered logs, instead of peat or coconut. Has all the necessary bacteria. 
I've never heard of anyone on any chatline who regretted switching to a composter of the airhead- natures head variety. I believe they will become the standard marine head, eventually, especially when the Chinese bring the price down to under $50.
I've been selling the separator bowls off my boat, a good possible source of cruising funds for low income cruisers, with a mold and materials.


----------



## kenpickard

*Airhead*

I put an airhead in my boat last spring. Have had alot of problem with excessive moisture in the poop tank. I recently re-mounted the unit so it slopes forward, so the urine will flow better to the urine tank. When I vented the unit, I was uncertain if it would work properly and did not want to hole my deck above the head, so ran a vent line aft to a dorade in the lazarette, about 20 feet, up sloping. I'm wondering if water is condensing (sp) in that line and dripping back into the poop tank. I'm finding that with two people after about a week the unit needs emptying, disappointed so far with the system. Any ideas anyone?


----------



## josrulz

kenpickard said:


> I put an airhead in my boat last spring. Have had alot of problem with excessive moisture in the poop tank. I recently re-mounted the unit so it slopes forward, so the urine will flow better to the urine tank. When I vented the unit, I was uncertain if it would work properly and did not want to hole my deck above the head, so ran a vent line aft to a dorade in the lazarette, about 20 feet, up sloping. I'm wondering if water is condensing (sp) in that line and dripping back into the poop tank. I'm finding that with two people after about a week the unit needs emptying, disappointed so far with the system. Any ideas anyone?


Sounds like it could be something along those lines. We added an Airhead last year too. This season, our solids tank tended to become drier unless we added more moist coco peat. No problems whatsoever with liquids getting into the tank. Our vent line is less than 6 feet up to the cabin top above through a Nicro solar vent. So far, it's worked well. Not a solution, but I think better venting might be a good place to start. 20 feet is a long run.


----------



## keforion

The report from Sweden says that urine contribute 80% of the Nitrogen ... to HOUSEHOLD waste water. 

The writers who observed that the problem is primarily industrial, feed-lot and agricultural run-off, not household waste (except ehwn storm sewers overflow) are correct.


----------



## knothead

An interesting study.

http://www.terra-preta-sanitation.n...ions/pdf/Terra_Preta_Sanitation_WS_T_2010.pdf


----------



## hellosailor

Very interesting. Although putting aside the waste bucket for a month to ferment, and then putting it out on the compost pile for six more months of worm action, might restrict the idea to boats with large plots of land onboard.


----------



## knothead

hellosailor said:


> Very interesting. Although putting aside the waste bucket for a month to ferment, and then putting it out on the compost pile for six more months of worm action, might restrict the idea to boats with large plots of land onboard.


Yeah, and those that might actually live on land and own a boat too.


----------



## Brent Swain

*Re: Airhead*



kenpickard said:


> I put an airhead in my boat last spring. Have had alot of problem with excessive moisture in the poop tank. I recently re-mounted the unit so it slopes forward, so the urine will flow better to the urine tank. When I vented the unit, I was uncertain if it would work properly and did not want to hole my deck above the head, so ran a vent line aft to a dorade in the lazarette, about 20 feet, up sloping. I'm wondering if water is condensing (sp) in that line and dripping back into the poop tank. I'm finding that with two people after about a week the unit needs emptying, disappointed so far with the system. Any ideas anyone?


Check out Pooh Powder, the most absorbent material I have ever seen. Sprinkle a bit on the top of a glass of water and the whole glass full turns to gell. A ten pound bag from the source should last years ,if you only use a sprinkle or two , only when needed.


----------



## wise4

This thread has convinced me.....












To keep my marine head and never... Ever consider a composting toilet...


----------



## fireboat52

I 'm not sure it I am breaking any rules because I am the designer and builder of the C-Head, but I just wanted to address some of the issues that have been brought up regarding composting toilets for boats, in general. 

As I have previously stated when discussing composting toilets, it is absolutely true that "composting" toilets sold on the boating market do not compost waste. If anything they "precompost" but that is of little importance because boaters don't compost their waste anyway. They discard it. A "composting" toilet for boats is more correctly called a "mouldering" toilet. People use composting toilets on boats for a couple of reasons. Odor control, ease of installation and maintenance, and freedom to spend extended time in sensitive areas with no pump-out service.

The observation was made that composters (if you will) dump solid waste in the water because it is easy. Well first, it is not easy and second, composted s*** floats so in fact, they don't usually throw it overboard without incriminating themselves or fouling their boot tops. Holding tank owners dump illegally, regularly and that is the worst kept secret in the world.

I do not believe that throwing bags of s*** in the dumpster at the marina is either a good idea or a sustainable one. The best system uses 5-gallon plastic buckets that you treat with a cup of chlorine bleach before sealing them up with a locking lid and discarding them. Biodegradable buckets are available. All composting toilet users should follow this practice. Incidentally, you can store a month and a half's waste for two people in a five gallon bucket using a composting toilet as compared to pumping out every week with a holding tank system and having the privilage of paying for it too.

Urine is easily deodorized with a shot of Campa-chem, easily disposed of and truthfully is not much of an issue. Hope this is helpful.


----------



## HeartsContent

This thread is hilarious!

Some people will go to the greatest lengths to try to convince themselves they're correct.

It's not really fair to call these toilets composting as it gives a bad name to legitimate composters (very green).

Dumping your piss over the side and your crap over the side, in people's yards or a dumpster is completely not green - it's disgusting.

Hopefully legislation will be created to protect the public from this serious health threat. Why not just use a 5 gallon bucket? It's pretty much the same thing.

Thank goodness there are responsible and competent boaters that can maintain and properly use a holding tank and pumpout.


----------



## arf145

Oh, yeah this is a huge problem that requires legislation!


----------



## fireboat52

I don't make a claim that composting toilets on boats are "green" and I specifically debunk that claim. It is a way of storing waste that (1) allows the owner to store a large amount of waste onboard (over a months worth) and (2) in an odorless manner and (3) very inexpensively and conveniently and, at the same time, (4) have the convenience of disposing of it at their leisure instead of having to dump in an emergency because the holding tank is full and they have to go . . .now! It also contrary to what you may think, incentivises people to wait to dispose of their waste since there is no hurry and no need to break the law. That part if it is green. If you spend a month in the Keys or on the St Johns River, you will come to appreciate these abilities.

If you were really green, you would believe that owners with holding tanks should be made to keep a log of pumpouts and should have their Y valves taged with bands that can only be broken and rebanded at certified pump out stations by a licensed official (for a fee). That would be green. But be careful what you wish for. Local and state governments are looking for ways to raise money and there are a whole lot more holding tanks out there than there are composting toilets.

With respect to resale of boats with composting toilets, fully a third of the boats I have boarded, you can smell the head at the dinette table. Try reselling one of those. The only person who is likely to buy it at your price is someone who is going to replace the current system with a composting toilet. If you do have a "composting" toilet at the time of the sale, you can reinstall a conventional holding tank system if you need to to satisfy the new owner without having to tear out the old one or pay someone a healthy sum to do it for you.


----------



## Skipper Jer

Is it possible to flush the contents of the composting toilet down a conventional toilet?


----------



## fireboat52

No, first, peat moss and saw dust will swell when wet and clog the system. Second, it would be a difficult chore. BTW, if your composting toilet is portable, it is not legal to have both a portable and a discharge system on board. One or the other. The law is a little gray in that it says that the discharge system must be rendered inoperable if portable toilets are used. It doesn't specify how and that is probably up to the inspecting officer. A lock on the Y valve might suffice. I don't know how well known or enforced this rule is.


----------



## hellosailor

So, fireboat, how does a compostable toilet stack up against...A plain urinal plus a plastic bucket and a bag of quicklime? As used in one-holers around the world? Still the same "bucket of stuff" to cap off and haul away when it is full, but AFAIK the quicklime is supposed to sterilize it and break it down pretty quickly.


----------



## fireboat52

Quick lime and a five gallon bucket is fine for a single bumboat guy but try to get a lady to sit over a rising pile of encrusted desolving poop. The best "bucket" method should be attractive on the outside and disguise what is going on on the inside by having no sewer smell and no visible growing pile of s*** under your butt. Quick lime is dusty and also a health hazard. (Google "Is quicklime dangerous?") If you get it in your eyes , it can blind you and there is really no other use for it onboard.

Mouldering (AKA composting) toilets that churn the mixture, as opposed to the "bucket and bury" method, allows you to make a little medium (sawdust or peat moss or coir) go a long way and as you know, storage space on a boat is at a premium. 

If you want to get a jump on the sterilization process instead of waiting to add chlorox when you seal the disposable bucket, you can add laundry detergent to the mixture at the beginning when you first charge the collection container with fresh peat moss. This will for all intents and purposes sterilize the medium but it will not be suitable for compost. 

I find that this is overkill and the chlorine works best. You never have to smell it because you seal the bucket immediately. Chlorox is usually carried on most boats for one use or another, and it is cheap. You could also use a bottle of hydrogen peroxide instead of chlorox if you wish. You can carry the full disposable bucket on the boat sealed until you find an appropriate means of disposing of it.


----------



## LandLocked66c

It's amazing how many people are afraid of poop... 

Why is it, it's ok to throw away diapers, but not "composted" toilet waste??? At least it's dry and odorless...


----------



## fireboat52

Some people (actually a lot of people) are what Jenkins calls fecophobic. It should be pointed out that with compact "composting" toilets, the waste is, in fact, not composted. The composting process under ideal conditions takes six months to two years to become completely free of any biohazard and that is from the day of the last deposit. But with only a couple of people using a composting toilet regularily instead of being open to the public for use, a composting toilet on a boat or even a homestead has little danger of spreading disease to it's users if minimal sanitary practices are used. No more than a holding tank system for sure and since repairs are virtually non-existant, you could say "less" dangerous. If handled correctly, you never have to come into physical contact with your waste again after you have used the toilet.


----------



## fireboat52

Sometimes forum discussions can be a lot like a composting toilet. People stirring up a lot of crap but if you dig through the mixture, you can find some kernels of truth and good information. Also like poop, the discussion tend to dry up in the sunlight of truth. 

As a former Army Special Forces medic charged with setting up base camp sanitation and as a retired Firefighter/Paramdeic with years of antiseptic practice, and as a five year live aboard cruiser and composting toilet user, I have some notion of what I am talking about and I do consider myself something of an expert on the subject of compact composting toilets. 

I write this, not to toot my own horn, but it is hard to stand by and watch bad information (like bacteria) being passed from one person to another (fecal cranial contact, if you will). I would gladly answer any serious general questions about compact composting toilets. I will not compare brands to each other but I will discuss the process, how to use one and why it can be a superior system compared to holding tank systems in many cases. Don't be shy.


----------



## hellosailor

OK, fireboat. Here's the biggie. Since there are no composting toilets, and the devices using that name still generate a bucket of sewage, sanitary waste, whatever you prefer to call it, what are the proper, legal, and sanitary ways to disposing of that "it ain't compost yet" waste?

As opposed to using a pump-out station, where there's a process to dump the sewage into a regular and approved sanitary waste system?


----------



## LandLocked66c

hellosailor said:


> OK, fireboat. Here's the biggie. Since there are no composting toilets, and the devices using that name still generate a bucket of sewage, sanitary waste, whatever you prefer to call it, what are the proper, legal, and sanitary ways to disposing of that "it ain't compost yet" waste?
> 
> As opposed to using a pump-out station, where there's a process to dump the sewage into a regular and approved sanitary waste system?


He has covered this in the posts above...


----------



## hellosailor

I would say touched on it, but not covered it. Taking a bucket and tossing it in the dumpster, or burying it, would not address the legal issues. Not to mention, consuming a $5 bucket non-bio-degradeable each trip, or the many places where that plastic bucket is required to be washed out and placed in the recycling.

Let's suppose you are in LI Sound, or on the Chesapeake or Biscayne Bay or in the Keys. Now, what so you do with a bucket full of sewage? I'd say mail it to your Congresscritter, but that's illegal to put in the US Mail, too.


----------



## casey1999

PaulfromNWOnt said:


> @pdq:
> 
> I work in water/wastewater. When I consider the arguments here about environmental responsibility when it comes to sewage, I usually just chuckle. But in the interest of clarity, a lake or ocean is a very large ecosystem that will have no trouble absorbing the effluent from the typical density of recreational boaters. Some may have higher densities and larger issues, but I'm talking averages. If you peed in your neighbours pool, he might get uptight if he found out, but realistically it would only cause his chemical/filtration costs to go up. Remember, urine is water with a nutrient content which can either be chemically inactivated or filtered.
> 
> As to the 'other' waste product being discussed. Don't eat it, it's not good for you. If you mix it by hand, make sure you wash them very well before eating your sandwich. If the thought of it being dumped under a random tree or a dumpster upsets you, then you might want to watch pet owners very carefully when they're out walking fido.
> 
> I love interweb debates. :/


Good point. BTW, what is the legality of disposing of baby diapers (or grown-up diapers- Depends) or pet waste in garbage cans or dumpsters?


----------



## casey1999

fireboat52 said:


> Quick lime and a five gallon bucket is fine for a single bumboat guy but try to get a lady to sit over a rising pile of encrusted desolving poop. The best "bucket" method should be attractive on the outside and disguise what is going on on the inside by having no sewer smell and no visible growing pile of s*** under your butt. Quick lime is dusty and also a health hazard. (Google "Is quicklime dangerous?") If you get it in your eyes , it can blind you and there is really no other use for it onboard.


I have used just lime (not quick lime), it works without the health issues and is cheap- buy a large bag at the hardware store.


----------



## smurphny

Yes, and concerning illegal disposal of poop...what the heck are we going to do with all those messy seagulls. They flout the law right in front of law enforcement on a regular basis, occasionally sending down poop bombs in aerial attacks. I say LOCK 'EM up along with racoons, squirrels, fish, insects, fido, ***** cats, and those lousy sea otters, and the whales!!...well, where are their composting toilets, huh?


----------



## tommays

I went through a ton of diapers on two children without ill effects  

Baby diapers seem to get dumped at every rest stop on the eastern coast of the USA without ending the world


----------



## misfits

Thanks Fireboat52 for taking the time to educate us on "composting" toilets.

I'm putting one on our boat because I do not want to deal with pump outs. Besides my kids plug up the toilet at home, I can only imagine what they'd do to a marine toilet.

As far as the rest of you arguing about toilets, run for Congress, you'll be right at home. They can't agree on **** either.


----------



## casey1999

tommays said:


> I went and a ton of diapers on two children without ill effects
> 
> Baby diapers seem to get dumped at every rest stop on the eastern coast of the USA without ending the world


Yea I went through quite a few with two kids also. The first kid we used washable diapers- kinda disgusting to put a dirty diaper in the washing machine (large solids went down the toilet) but I lived. I am just curious as to the legality of throwing human (or pet waste) in the garbage. Kinda felt bad for the workers who needs to un-jam the conveyor that carries the waste to the burner at the waste to energy plant and steps on a bunch of used diapers in the process. But I guess that is what the hepititis and typhoid shots are for, and it makes good TV for "Dirty Jobs".


----------



## tommays

The danger of Various POOP is always a hot topic (really  ) with horses being one of the hot topics up here as there are many mixed use trails and they would have you believe dog poop is bad and horse poop is somehow innocuous


----------



## fireboat52

Well, my post seems to have accomplished its purpose.

Hellosailor, To answer your question directly and unevasively, first, you should always dispose of your waste legally. Like many legalities, there are gray areas. Jenkins goes into some depth about handling waste and disposing of waste and the law, so reading his free online book (th Humanure Handbook) which is the bible when it comes to composting, is a great first step, if you are contemplating using a composting or mouldering toilet. Let's use the term "CMT" (compact mouldering toilet) from here on to keep all the nigglers happy.


In most areas, the law states that you cannot dispose of "untreated" waste in the garbage and yes it is probably illegal to put animal or baby poop in the trash (more on this in a moment) and yes, people that throw bags of untreated waste in the dumpster, are probably breaking the law in most areas. Pouring chlorine in with the waste (add vinegar too if you really want to wipe out the bugs) and sealing it from the public is technically "treating" waste and it will be sterile once the chlorine gas has permiated the interior of the bucket. Therer will be no measurable level of live bacteria in the waste and that is the reason the law exists. It would be prudent to use some judgement and discard the bucket at a time and place where it is libel to attract the least attention like the back of a dumpster or with other items at the roadside the day of pickup. CMTs give you this kind of flexability as opposed to holding tank systems. If you are using a shiney new Homer bucket, hit it with a couple shots of spray paint to mar it and keep the curious away.

Discarding poop in the trash with respect to diapers and pet poop is not enforced because it is not practical to do so but make no mistake, baby poop especially can be dangerous. As the use of CMTs grows, it will become a problem in congested areas like Boot Key, Annapolis, St Pete, etc. There is no doubt that if current trends continue, that is, putting bags of mouldered poop in the trash, one of two things will happen. CMT will be outlawed in the basins or the dockmaster will see a source of revenue and you will be charged a discharge fee. Knowing how municipalities love revenues, I suspect the latter will be the case.

If you live in an area where the eco police are all over you all the time, then you have several options. Save the filled, odorless, compact buckets onboard until you get home and then add them to your composting mound, go offshore and dump the waste out or lastly don't buy a mouldering toilet. Very simple, easy solution. Four 5 gallon buckets will hold between 4-6 months waste using a churning type CMT and if you can't find a place or make a trip offshore in that time frame to discard it safely by pouring the contents oveboard, then you need to go with a holding tank system and hope you are better at finding a pump out station everytime before you have to dump your holding tank inorder to take a crap. Sadly, I've been there and done that, (pre CMT) but as they say, when you gotta go, you gotta go.

Discarding a $5 bucket every 5-6 weeks beats the heck our of seeking out a pump out station every week and paying $7 (for the tipless tightwads) to $25 to have someone else do it for you, not to mention the savings in maintenance and chemicals. Biodegradable 5 gallon plastic buckets are available for those concerned about that issue. Frankly all plastic buckets are biodegradable, just some take longer than others. I don't see anybody digging one up anytime within the next thousand years unless they have found a way to convert it to fuel, but who knows.

As far as urine goes, you can do a couple of things. Transfer the urine into a larger five gallon jerry jug (a week for two people) and then pour down the toilet or overboard offshore. Actually, pouring urine overboard in any active tidal area is harmless but not legal, but each owner must be the judge there. Never pour it overboard in a basin or on a river. If you are in a slip, just take it up to the bathroom and pour it out in the urinal. A fancy "green" cloth grocery bag is designed to hold two one gallon milk jugs or a two gallon jug very discretely and Campa-chem (formaldehyde free) will deodorize it completely so you won't stink up the restroom when pouring it out.

Hope this is helpful.


----------



## casey1999

tommays said:


> The danger of Various POOP is always a hot topic (really  ) with horses being one of the hot topics up here as there are many mixed use trails and they would have you believe dog poop is bad and horse poop is somehow innocuous


Animal poop does not bother me much. As a kid I mucked out horse stalls and cattle pens. Walked through the stuff and stepped in my dogs poop barefoot. No big deal. Had my kids poop all over me- no problem. Drank from streams that ran through the cow pasture with cows peeing and pooping in the water. My sister said as long as the water was "rushing over rock" it was clean (not true BTW).

But other peoples poop, the line stops there. You deal with your own poop.


----------



## hellosailor

Animal excrement and baby excrement is not the same as adult excrement. 

How many dogs, horses, and babies carry hepatitis? But apparently 10% of Asian-American adults do. Not to mention, the illegal kitchen worker down the block.

Really, guys. There's poo and there's poo, and being a little paranoid about stuff that can do serious damage, is not such a bad idea.

Not that the holding tank is any cleaner, just that there's a process and a routine for handling it.

If I want to use a bucket and lime...I don't see what I need an almost-composting toilet for. I'd vote for a real composting toilet--but that means having two, with large capacities, and alternating as they composted for a month or three each load.


----------



## knothead

Hopefully, As CMT's (_i like the term btw_ )become more common, marina's, both public and private will get with the program and either provide a means of disposal, such as designated bin. Or they will simply set aside an area for a compost pile and train someone to maintain it. A compost pile would also serve as a place to dispose of galley scraps and pet waste. It would also be a perfect place to empty urine containers.

I know. I can sense all the cringing and can hear all the protests. However a properly maintained compost pile is very similar to a properly maintained CMT. No smell, no pests, no problem. Rather than being yucky, it's a great way to enrich the soil. Without chemicals.

Speaking of chemicals, adding bleach to the closed up container seems to rather defeat the purpose somewhat and would certainly stop any composting that's going on in there. Better to add a few worms and let it be. If the lid is cracked once in awhile to let a little oxygen in, the composting will continue in the closed up bucket. Then when you find a place to dispose of the contents you won't be polluting the ground with chlorine. 
I know that I wouldn't add a bucket of material to my compost pile if it had been "sterilized" with bleach.

As far as the law goes. I'm all for intelligent laws and do my best to obey them. But as far as stupid laws go. I feel an obligation to disobey them. 
There is no way that having a compost pile in my back yard that I use to compost my personal waste is a health threat and in fact is a much more sustainable and healthy way to live. But in fact, it's illegal. So, what's better? To submit or to ignore? Everyone has to make their own choices and everyone has to live with the consequences.


----------



## fireboat52

It takes human waste 6-24 months to compost completely to a point where there are no human pathogens present and that is under ideal conditions. CMTs don't get anywhere close to creating those conditions. The space it would take to have a 100% efficient composting system is totally impractical on any size vessel.

Chlorine will evaporate overtime but once it kills the microbes in the waste it is not suitable as an activator. It must rely on the materials around it to turn into compost. It basically becomes bulk material. I should have made the point that if you do plan on using the waste for composting at home, then you should not use chlorine. Just seal it up until you can transfer it to a composting bin. You can also convert it to biochar if you don't want to wait to compost it. There are many videos on youtube about composting that are very informative.

The basic problem with a bucket and lime is that it is messy and it looks messy and it detracts from the value of your boat. It says unflattering thngs about the owner too.

You are absolutely right that people should not take poop lightly. I had a friend in the fire department that used to get very descriptive about his sexual proclivities and at the same time would complain about spots on the glasses coming out of the dishwasher (seriously). Point being that people can be blind to the dangers of exposure. But if you are only exposed to only a couple of people and you use minimal sanitatary practices like washing your hands after handling the CMT parts or using the can, you are pretty safe. It's like reefing. If you are wondering if you should wash your hands, you should wash your hands.


----------



## casey1999

Storing chlorine on a boat is probably not the best thing to do. If you get a leak in the container and the boat fills with chlorine gas- bad news. Also, chlorine attacks stainless steel (crevice corrosion) and is not a good boat cleaner because of this- spill it or use it to clean your bilge and your stainless keel bolts could be attacked. Better to use vinegar for boat disinfecting/cleaning.


----------



## hellosailor

"There is no way that having a compost pile in my back yard that I use to compost my personal waste is a health threat... But in fact, it's illegal."

So, you're fairly certain that your compost pile will generate sufficient heat to sterilize the waste. And in the interim, no critters will get in, no rain run-off will get out, no incidental pathogens are going to be transported out of the pile, or survive the process. Like, on your pitchfork while you're turning it.

You know, it wasn't so long ago that big cities were decimated by fecal contamination of water supplies, among other health problems. The current bans on sanitray waste have all pretty much evolved from "Well what can we do to make sure THAT never happens again?"

And they're designed to work for everyone. If you're good enough to work without them--they make no allowance for that. Laws get applied to everyone, especially when their purpose is to prevent plagues and epidemics.

As the Roman soldier allegedly said to Christ while carrying the cross "Son, I don't care who you are. NO PERMIT NO PARADE."


----------



## fireboat52

Composting waste at home is not universally illegal. You can go online and see which states allow composting waste but the info is dated. Florida and Arizona are compost friendly states but it varies from municipality to municipality.

If you don't want to compost your waste back at home, you can burn it instead or sterilize and discard it or you can dump it off shore anytime. All these methods are legal in most areas and virtually unenforced where illegal unless you are a public nuisance. Speeding is also illegal.

Contrary to what most people believe, the "green" community has mixed emotions about composting toilets because they allow the development of sensitive areas where water is either restricted or not available.

Holding tank systems are by far and away the greater offender when it comes to polluting. CMTs are a great way to store waste economically and safely but CMTs are not for everybody.


----------



## hellosailor

Here in the Northeast, AFAIK in all the NE states, you can't burn your waste or even your lawn rakings much less your ordinary trash. Violates air pollution codes.

Floriduh, of course, is famous for being one of the most forward-thinking and socially concerned states in the union. A true bastion of exemplary public policies.


----------



## smurphny

Lawrence Kohlberg has a scale of levels of moral thinking. It says, briefly, that most people reach a stage of "conventional morality" after passing through their completely self-centered stages whereby they think along the lines of "what's good for one is good for all," or some other means to go with the crowd, authority, compliance. A small percentage of independent thinkers about right and wrong rise above blind compliance and make moral decisions based upon reason, common sense, fact. Sometimes they break the law which is, of course, an ass. Conventional morality very often ignores fact. This conversation is a good example.


----------



## fireboat52

Okaaay then . . . . any other on topic questions?


----------



## genieskip

fireboat52 said:


> Okaaay then . . . . any other on topic questions?


WOW - when I started this thread some years ago I had no idea it would get so long and would have so many terrific contributors.

I'm still using my two composters and loving not having to deal with pump outs and holding tanks. One question for you, fireboat, what is the best way to deal with the little fruit-fly-like critters that occasionally populate the main compost holding compartment?


----------



## casey1999

genieskip said:


> WOW - when I started this thread some years ago I had no idea it would get so long and would have so many terrific contributors.
> 
> I'm still using my two composters and loving not having to deal with pump outs and holding tanks. One question for you, fireboat, what is the best way to deal with the little fruit-fly-like critters that occasionally populate the main compost holding compartment?


Here in hawaii I would leave a Gecko in your boat, would eat the critters and give you good luck. And environmentally correct I should add.


----------



## hellosailor

Venus flytrap or other carnivores if you can grow 'em. Flypaper if you want fast results.
One of the great inventions of the 20th? 19th century, best thing since the wheel or fire.

Banned as unsanitary in some cities, but it certainly does the job.


----------



## fireboat52

Fruit flies, sewer moths, etc, are sometimes a problem with CMTs. Actually there are several types of small flies that can find their way into the collection container. There are several factors that increase the likehood of the problem; location, time of year, ventilation, etc. Screens help but if you are in an area where the are common (like two slips away from the marina dumpster) or if you keep a lot of fresh fruit (particularly fruit with soft or porous skins) onboard, they will eventually find their way into the collection container. 

It takes a week to ten days for the eggs to develop into flies. The best remedy is to empty and clean out the collection container as soon as you see them. This is the downside to CMTs that hold a large amount of waste. Just emptying the container won't get rid of the eggs. Some brands, you can put a fly trap inside the housing and some brands you can empty the collection container and then tie to a line and submerge it overboard for an hour or so or else just hose it off on the dock if you are in a more secluded area. You will get some residual waste in the water, but no more than the pump out hose does when they purge the line by dropping it in the water after pumping out the holding tank.

I have only had a fly infestation on board one time during the year we used our CMT (I have used it ashore for an additional year now for research). I neglected to empty the collection container before we went ashore for several weeks because of my back problems. It is not a big problem, everywhere, all the time and it can be controlled.

If you are in an area where flies are a problem, you can mix diatomacious earth with your medium and it will kill any larva. It works mechanically, not chemically. It is non-toxic to humans and you can get it at garden supply stores. Another advantage of emptying the collection container every week is that with some systems, you may not need to ventilate the collection container. You will use more medium, but peat moss is cheap and may be worth the trade off if venting the system is problematic. Some people have said that the peat moss was infested with fly larva. That is possible I guess but I suspect the came in from the outside. If you consistantly get flies from the same batch of peat moss, buy some new or else use sawdust. Cypress sawdust is the best in my opinion because it holds a lot of moisture, but is can be hard to find.


----------



## genieskip

Thanks, fireboat, I'll give the diatomaceous earth a try, even before they return. How much do you recommend putting into the airhead as a preventative?


----------



## fireboat52

If you google "diatomaceous earth composting toilets" you will get a lot of good info. The amount you need to use can vary. Fill a red pepper shaker with DE or make your own shaker from a peanut butter jar or the likes and sprinkle it on the surface of the medium after each use for three or four days.

It should also be pointed out that flies need moisture to lay their eggs in, so dehydrating CMT systems will work better at keeping flys away.


----------



## knothead

hellosailor said:


> "There is no way that having a compost pile in my back yard that I use to compost my personal waste is a health threat... But in fact, it's illegal."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, you're fairly certain that your compost pile will generate sufficient heat to sterilize the waste. And in the interim, no critters will get in, no rain run-off will get out, no incidental pathogens are going to be transported out of the pile, or survive the process. Like, on your pitchfork while you're turning it.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, it wasn't so long ago that big cities were decimated by fecal contamination of water supplies, among other health problems. The current bans on sanitray waste have all pretty much evolved from "Well what can we do to make sure THAT never happens again?"
> 
> And they're designed to work for everyone. If you're good enough to work without them--they make no allowance for that. Laws get applied to everyone, especially when their purpose is to prevent plagues and epidemics.
> 
> As the Roman soldier allegedly said to Christ while carrying the cross "Son, I don't care who you are. NO PERMIT NO PARADE."
Click to expand...

I am fairly certain that the pile will generate sufficient heat to kill dangerous pathogens. And what the heat doesn't kill, time will.

Critters, other than the desired one's, aren't really attracted to composting humanure. I only add food scraps when I empty my bucket. Which is once every two weeks. However, my compost pile is in a wire enclosure anyway.

My compost pile is covered by a roof so leachate isn't an issue.

The compost never gets turned. New material is added to a depression in the top center of the pile and then covered with clean straw, sawdust, leaf mulch or grass clippings. Or a combination of the above. 
I do use a pitch fork and no, I'm not worried about transferring disease from my pile to another part of my yard where the dog and cats and chickens roam. 
For one thing, I'm not diseased and I wash my hands. Whether I'm playing with compost, petting my animals or touching a door knob in a public place, I figure that I'm picking up germs. (or leaving them) So I wash my hands. Just like I do after I use my CMT or any other toilet in the world.

You have been conditioned to fear the natural. Don't be so paranoid.

Lastly, I don't need no stinking permit.


----------



## smurphny

I'm almost certainly going to put one of these in before shoving off again and take the Thetford MSD out. The problem is the small footprint area I have to work with. None of the commercially made units would come even close to fitting. Will probably build in a box and use one of the separating seats I've seen advertized. Venting should be fairly straightforward using a solar vent unit but designing some kind of trap door arrangement and a "stirrer" will require some thought. The more research I do on these, the better I like the idea.


----------



## copacabana

Smurphy, don't be so sure that you don't have the room for a composting toilet. The footprint of my Nature's Head is actually less overall than the old manual WC marine head I replaced. The difference is going to be the height of the composting toilet. As most marine toilets sit on a platform, this tends to make for a very tall installation when you put in your composting toilet. One of my upcoming projects is to cut and modify my platform so the composting toilet sits lower. After almost 2 years with my composting toilet, I can honestly say it works as advertised, doesn't smell AT ALL, is super easy to maintain and use and greatly simplifies the boat by getting rid of the plumbing/seacocks/pump/hose/holding tank etc. of a wet system. I'll never go back to a marine water head!


----------



## smurphny

Thank You, copacabana for that information. Maybe I will make a full sized mock-up of the outline of the Nature's Head unit and take it to the boat to see if it can be fit in somehow. It looks like a very nice unit and I think females would possibly consider actually using it. It seems to be the smallest of all the ones I've looked at. The problem is with the door leading into the head which swings in up against it and latches there. Maybe I can switch the swing of the door so it swings into the cabin but will have to think about the implications of that. 

These composters are all VERY high and will require some sort of hinging foot rest. They really are the proverbial "throne." 

That said, I've looked at a couple of old 12v. computer fans I have here and an old joint compound drill-stirrer which could easily be adapted to be used to construct a composter using a standard sr bucket. It would be VERY nice to get rid of hoses and seacocks.


----------



## misfits

The height of composting toilets are the same height as handi-cap toilets that are in public rest rooms. When compared to a standard marine head, they are roughly 5" taller.


----------



## copacabana

Smurphy, FWIW, we have no foot support and no one has trouble using the head. I would look into a way to cut the platform to lower the unit before building foot supports. The nice thing about the Nature's Head is the quality of the finishing- something you might not get with a home-built unit. They look like real toilets. My wife is the first one to sing its praise- so the wife-approval factor shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## PTsailing

*Re: finding a toilet to fit a small head*

C-Head makes 3 different models, you'd probably find one that fits in your head. I like the C-Head for several reasons but mostly because you can get extra liquid bottles for next to nothing since he uses the plastic jugs water comes in, the other two units sell extra liquid containers for around $40 and you need to have an extra container. And with the C-Head system you don't need an extra solids container, he provides a storage system for the waste. You need to buy an extra solids container from the other two for a hefty $225.00. So be sure to add those two products to your base price.

BTW a lot of folks have mentioned odor from the urine containers, I use bleach to clean out my containers ( two gallon plastic jugs that once contained kitty litter) and I have no problem with smell. If I leave my boat for any length of time ( a week or so)and I'm in too much of a hurry to empty the tank, then I pour a slug of bleach down and there's no smell. we live on board and have been using a composting toilet for two years. We built our own, but for our sailboat which has a much smaller head, we bought a C-Head marine toilet.


----------



## casey1999

Question for you "composters":
Do you through the toilet paper into the toilet? What if someone uses a lot of toilet paper, seems that could fill the unit up quickly.


----------



## copacabana

Some people throw paper in the composting toilet. We don't. We have a small garbage can with a lid beside the toilet and all paper goes there. I line it with a plastic bag (the air-tight kind you buy in rolls) and when it's full, I just tie the bag and it goes into the garbage. Paper takes a long time to compost and it will fill up the composting chamber quickly.


----------



## misfits

*Re: finding a toilet to fit a small head*



PTsailing said:


> C-Head makes 3 different models, you'd probably find one that fits in your head..


Let's keep this moving. Anyone else out there familar with C-Head?
Went to their web site quickly, I'm not sure what to think but the price sure looks attractive.


----------



## knothead

*Re: finding a toilet to fit a small head*



misfits said:


> Let's keep this moving. Anyone else out there familar with C-Head?
> Went to their web site quickly, I'm not sure what to think but the price sure looks attractive.


Fireboat52 posted this a few pages back.



> I 'm not sure it I am breaking any rules because I am the designer and builder of the C-Head, but I just wanted to address some of the issues that have been brought up regarding composting toilets for boats, in general.


I would send him a PM if you want specific product information just to make sure that he doesn't get in trouble for breaking some rule about posting as an advertiser.


----------



## Brent Swain

smurphny said:


> I'm almost certainly going to put one of these in before shoving off again and take the Thetford MSD out. The problem is the small footprint area I have to work with. None of the commercially made units would come even close to fitting. Will probably build in a box and use one of the separating seats I've seen advertized. Venting should be fairly straightforward using a solar vent unit but designing some kind of trap door arrangement and a "stirrer" will require some thought. The more research I do on these, the better I like the idea.


Instead of a trap door , I use a lift out lid, a stainless pot lid from the thrift store. I lift it and set it aside when giving birth to a XXXXXXXXXXXX. That lets me put a lip around the XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX canal ,so no liquids can flow into the solids container. 
For a stirrer , I welded up a stainless hoop, with the crank handle 90 degrees to the hoop. That way the hoop lies horizontal, so it doesn't get coated with hardened solids.

(Comments construed to be political were removed per forum rules. I can't believe that I had to do this, but as pointed out in the member complaint political commentary should only occur in Off-topic. Jeff_H)


----------



## misfits

*Re: finding a toilet to fit a small head*



knothead said:


> Fireboat52 posted this a few pages back.
> I would send him a PM if you want specific product information just to make sure that he doesn't get in trouble for breaking some rule about posting as an advertiser.


Ya know I went to the C head web site, started watching a couple of their videos & then it hit me. Fireboat 52 is Sandy.

Duh, asleep at the switch....


----------



## smurphny

Brent Swain said:


> Instead of a trap door , I use a lift out lid, a stainless pot lid from the thrift store. I lift it and set it aside _(political commentary snipped)_ ,so no liquids can flow into the solids container.
> For a stirrer , I welded up a stainless hoop, with the crank handle 90 degrees to the hoop. That way the hoop lies horizontal, so it doesn't get coated with hardened solids.


I'm guessing that on the occasional visits by the opposite sex, they will never reach in and touch a lid with (SURPRISE!) poop underneath, moss or no moss. A lid does make a lot of sense because it is probably better at sealing out critters. I can see where there might be a "caking" problem if any part of the stirrer is directly in the line of fire. In the commercial units, the stir mechanism looks like it swings out of the way, shaped like a C. I guess the idea is to just aerate a bit, not try to macerate it.


----------



## fireboat52

This is probably one of the best forum discussions on the subject of "composting toilets" vs "holding tank systems" that I have ever read. I hope it continues but it is also a prime example of how injecting political views can stiffle an otherwise vigorous, informative and important discussion. Twice now since I have started following this thread, it has come to a screeching halt after someone (not the same persons) felt it necessary to inject politics into it. There are lots of forums where a person can vent politically. We should be able to agree that nobody wants to sail or swim around in poop and go from there.


----------



## RonRelyea

BREAKING NEWS

I switched from peat moss to coconut coir this year .... wooo hoooo .... I'll report back at the end of the sailing season

I still don't miss my leaking holding tank, bad joker valves, pump-outs gone awry, permeated hoses, plugged hoses (outflow and vent), worries about "is the Y valve in the legal position and locked", flushing with a final cup of tap water to get rid of vegetation, and another thru-hull & seacock to worry about leaking.


----------



## smurphny

Well, have confirmed my suspicion that none of the commercially made units will fit the small space on my boat so am in the process of designing a built-in system that utilizes simple spackle buckets as the base of operations, much the same as one of the systems I've seen. It will have some sort of sliding lid that can be opened after sitting which will relieve the squeamish from ever having to view the contents. Have been testing the idea at home with sphagnum peat and I've got to say I am amazed at how odor-free it is. I am wondering if these actually need a powered vent or if just an additional 1-1/2" tube leading up into the dorade box would suffice. I will try to snap some photos to post as it progresses.


----------



## boatsail1

Excellent discussion. Thanks to all. Thinking of going C toilet on my ODay 28. I dont like pumbing or discharging to sea. Perhaps too picky, but thats me.
Boatsail1


----------



## smurphny

Some pix of built-in composter. Maybe some of the ideas will be useful to others with a small space.








































Had a picture of the 4" PVC housing for the fan but it seems 5 pix is all that are allowed to be posted. The housing is two 4"-1-1/2" reducers with a short piece connecting then. Only one side glued so as to be able to get at the fan. Fan is a 12v computer fan which needed to be ground down carefully at the corners to fit the PVC. PVC was ground out a bit on a oscillating sander to fit fan corners. The stirrer is a piece of 3/8" round s.s. That's coconut coir in the bucket.

The sliding lid is just a pc. of 1/4ply with mica laminate. same as the top and front.


----------



## smurphny

Other pix:
























The urine cup, with barbed hose connector, drains into a polyethylene oil jug which can be removed by tilting the bucket. I may put in a door in the front to make access easier.


----------



## Brent Swain

smurphny said:


> I'm guessing that on the occasional visits by the opposite sex, they will never reach in and touch a lid with (SURPRISE!) poop underneath, moss or no moss. A lid does make a lot of sense because it is probably better at sealing out critters. I can see where there might be a "caking" problem if any part of the stirrer is directly in the line of fire. In the commercial units, the stir mechanism looks like it swings out of the way, shaped like a C. I guess the idea is to just aerate a bit, not try to macerate it.


One can make a simple stainless hook with a handle on it, for lifting the lid out, set near the head..


----------



## DoubleEnder

Just wanted to say that I just put a C-head in my new (to me) 36' sloop.

It's awesome! On a three week trip from Virginia to Ma. it worked perfectly. Yes it does have an "earthy" smell from the peat moss but that's it. Beats that old nasty head smell and no more having to deal with holding tanks/hoses/pump out boats etc. So easy to use even a cave man could do it. 

Brian


----------



## smurphny

There is just a little bit of coir in the bucket. When the loop is down it does get covered, out of the firing line. It seems that if the loop is left down and turned slowly 4 times clockwise, 4 counterclockwise, it gives plenty of stir to do a good mix/aeration. The normal level of peat/coir will be higher. The handle is rugged. made the axle from an old pc. of 1" shaft, 3/8" hole drilled through with two 5'16" set screws on a flat ground in the shaft. The spokes are just 5/16" bolts. There's a piece of screen inside the vent tube so critters can't get in that way. I do have the lid with a screw in the top to grab hold of but it will not snap on with the trough in the way. Will try this bucket arrangement but there is room to build in a much larger fiberglass base up along the curvature of the hull. The whole frame could easily be hinged to lift up for access. The bucket should be kinda handy though if it works well enough because when full, the cap can just be snapped on, vent hole plugged, and a new bucket cycled in.


----------



## boatsail1

smurphny, how is the CT working? Like the creativeness


----------



## smurphny

Boat is on the hard now so have not put into action yet. This fall will post on how it works out.


----------



## smurphny

Just tested a little 1.8w, $25 solar panel with the computer fan. It seems to work great. Am going to connect this to a small 12v wet cell battery to keep the head vent completely separate from the house battery bank. This way I will have 0 additional amperage draw due to this project.


----------



## amelia

We installed a C-Head in our homemade boat last year, despite feminine misgivings as to esthetics, technique learning curve, and waste-handling workload, but we barged ahead, because dealing with holding tanks, pumputs, stuck valves, permeated hoses, pumpout logs and discharge locks seemed far worse. 
Long story short, we are delighted. 
-There is NO odor.
-We have had no fly infestations so far, only place in this swamp with no bugs is our head.
-Cleaning and maintenance is very quick and easy. Transferring solid waste is quick and easy. No disassembly necessary.
- The five-gallon secondary solid waste bin holds a lot more than a holding tank would have, months worth at our current rate of usage, and if it fills, we have a spare 5-gallon bucket-and-snap-on lid here somewhere. Try THAT with a full holding tank, miles from the nearest working pump out station.
-Parts for this brand are, for the most part, available at our small-town hardware store. We changed our minds about the toilet seat, and replaced ours for <$15.
-The cabinet is compact, with a narrow footprint, sits flush against the bulkhead, and is no taller than a household toilet. The churn crank needs no space to the side. Very efficient use of space, and comfortable to sit on.
-Need another urine container? At least for this brand, here's another empty water/milk jug. Easy! Cheap! Readily to hand. Unobtrusive to empty, light-weight. No worries about middle-of-the-night overfill. Capping the jug, tucking it in a totebag, and pouring it in the next marina toilet is easy, neat, and at least as environmentally sound as any alternative. For that matter, urine is sterile. If some should accidentally be spilled overboard in open water,  I wouldn't be horrified. Not that I would do such an illegal thing.
-Our male guests, so far, seem cool with the "EVERYbody sits to pee" rule. Anybody who finds that requirement an affront to his masculine identity can (perfectly legally) head for the lee rail.

So, it is not a flush-and-forget-it solution like our home toilet, but no boat head is. This, so far, seems like a very reasonable solution to what appears to be a vexing problem to most boaters.


----------



## fryewe

Two weeks ago I installed the C-head in a boat I am restoring on the hard. I have been using it and am really pleased with it. Installation is simple... I just put it on the flat surface in the head and lashed it in place. I am not going to vent it unless there is a bit of smell.

I charged it with peat moss and a cup of diatomaceous earth I bought at WalMart. Diatomaceous earth will kill any insect larvae.

But to be honest I'm not sure insects would even find it. The head (the room and not the device ) has that post-go fragrance for a few minutes after use but it goes away just a few minutes after stirring. Pee container can't be smelled either.

I haven't emptied it since I commissioned it. I will keep using it until it is full to see if there is any smell at any point in the fill cycle.

Thanks for the testimonials of the users here. Your experiences convinced me that the C-head was the way to go. Amazingly simple...no salt water supply/no toilet discharge line to holding tank/no holding tank/no holding tank discharge line/no macerator pump/no three way valve/no in-port and at sea discharge penetrations and valves (one above and one below the water line)/no spare parts bin for toilet and valves/no valve maintenance/no troubleshooting when things don't go right/no searching for pump out facility/no $$$ for pump outs/no violating the law when no pump out can be found. And no smell (although to be honest my boat has never had a head smell).

Eliminating all that peripheral plumbing equipment makes a lot of space available for stowage on my small boat.


----------



## MedSailor

fryewe said:


> Diatomaceous earth will kill any insect larvae.


You're right! What a great idea! I've been using premethrin insect spray (which works) thinking that since they soak infant malaria nets in the stuff that it should be nice and non-toxic. Well it turn out that its REALLY toxic to cats. Since I have a ship's cat, I need an alternative. Besides it smells. I've heard of using diatomaveous earth in gardening and other applications but for the composting head this sounds like pure genius!

Diatomaceous earth plus coconut coir is hopefully the perfect recipe.

Medsailor


----------



## fryewe

Medsailor...I can't take credit for that. Sandy of C-heads recommends using diatomaceous earth in his video describing his products and how to use them. I thought it was genius too.


----------



## troy2000

I've had a C-head in my motor home for a few months now, as a test run for installing it in the boat I'm building.

My only question at this point is, "do I yank my motor home's C-Head for the boat, and reinstall the water-flushing toilet it replaced -- or leave it there, bite the bullet and buy another one for the boat?


The answer should be pretty simple. But I'm a cheapskate, and 500 bucks is 500 bucks.....


----------



## hughdon

Is anyone familiar with the 'incinerating toilets' used on inland Tugs?
Cost?
Use too much electricity?


----------



## hellosailor

That's an "Incinolet". 

Be still my heart.

Aside from needing, yes, a freaking lot of power for the long burn cycle, and the somewhat delicate concern of "I'm about to place my bare ass IN a furnace and hang out for a while..."

Oh, and you drop in a paper liner something like a coffee filter before each use/cycle.

Around two grand and needing 2000 watts for 45? minutes. If you can afford 2kwh out of your power every time you flush, no pun intended, wouldn't that be a nice way to go?


----------



## sww914

We bought a C-Head after a couple of poo showers due to a clogging vent. I guess you could say that we'd had enough of that sh!t.
My wife wrote up the whole deal on our blog if you want to read it. I still can't believe that C-Head linked to it as a review. 
It's here- Day 10: The **** Diaries, Golden Showers and **** » Landfall Voyages


----------



## troy2000

sww914 said:


> We bought a C-Head after a couple of poo showers due to a clogging vent. I guess you could say that we'd had enough of that sh!t.
> My wife wrote up the whole deal on our blog if you want to read it. I still can't believe that C-Head linked to it as a review.
> It's here- Day 10: The **** Diaries, Golden Showers and **** » Landfall Voyages


Tks for the link. It's a good write-up, and it agrees with my personal experience using the C-Head.

The biggest knock I've had on mine is people carrying on about the fact that it has to be emptied more often than the Nature's Head or Air Head. But c'mon, folks.... emptying a C-Head is about as hard as taking out the kitchen trash. Even easier actually, because you don't have to stick a new bag in it afterwards.


----------



## highwind

The Humanure Handbook is still available for download by chapters in pdf format: 

Look for table of contents.

One thing that hasn't been touched on in this discussion is aerobic purification and decomposition of human waste, such as is used in municipal treatment plants where treatment has to proceed at a brisk pace through the use of sprayers or waterfalls. Composting tends to depend on this similar process to kill pathogens without the liquid environment through the use of dry bulking agents to maintain oxygen levels. One of the advantages of the C-head is the storage of batches for further decomposition without the addition of fresh material. Unfortunately, the exclusion of air by sealing the container stops the aerobic purification process just as not turning a compost pile slows the decomposition and purification process. In a larger composting system the compost is withdrawn from the bottom of the chamber, where the decomposition process has been completed. However since it is an actively used system, there is still potential for contamination; thus the warnings and concerns about handling composted human waste. There is a report put out by the EPA that charts the life of the various pathogens found in human waste products when exposed to various environments. 
Search this since I can't post links:

water.epa.gov/aboutow/owm/upload/2005_07_14_comp.pdf 

Also, very little is said about municipal treatment plants that empty their effluent into our waterways and oceans, especially when these systems are overloaded by storm sewer runoff. Contrary to common beliefs, most cities (especially large older coastal cities) still have not completed the federally mandated process of separating storm water from sewage lines. So when you take your boat to the pumpout station today, it doesn't mean your waste is being handled properly. What it means is that you will likely be drinking it tomorrow!


----------



## highwind

I should add that sunlight is also a great purifier, as well. So when you dump your compost out of your bucket you could be doing our environment a favor.


----------



## highwind

For those people with troubled holding tank systems, the addition of air into the holding tank has been recommended to reduce odors. Most recommendations center around larger and shorter ventilation hoses.


----------



## sww914

highwind said:


> The Humanure Handbook is still available for download by chapters in pdf format:
> 
> Look for table of contents.
> 
> One thing that hasn't been touched on in this discussion is aerobic purification and decomposition of human waste, such as is used in municipal treatment plants where treatment has to proceed at a brisk pace through the use of sprayers or waterfalls. Composting tends to depend on this similar process to kill pathogens without the liquid environment through the use of dry bulking agents to maintain oxygen levels. One of the advantages of the C-head is the storage of batches for further decomposition without the addition of fresh material. Unfortunately, the exclusion of air by sealing the container stops the aerobic purification process just as not turning a compost pile slows the decomposition and purification process. In a larger composting system the compost is withdrawn from the bottom of the chamber, where the decomposition process has been completed. However since it is an actively used system, there is still potential for contamination; thus the warnings and concerns about handling composted human waste. There is a report put out by the EPA that charts the life of the various pathogens found in human waste products when exposed to various environments.
> 
> water.epa.gov/aboutow/owm/upload/2005_07_14_comp.pdf
> 
> Since I can't post links you have to add http, etc. at the beginning to complete the preceding url.
> 
> Also, very little is said about municipal treatment plants that empty their effluent into our waterways and oceans, especially when these systems are overloaded by storm sewer runoff. Contrary to common beliefs, most cities (especially large older coastal cities) still have not completed the federally mandated process of separating storm water from sewage lines. So when you take your boat to the pumpout station today, it doesn't mean your waste is being handled properly. What it means is that you will likely be drinking it tomorrow!


My C-Head came with a venting system for the secondary storage container.


----------



## highwind

Sorry. You're right. There is the vent system that comes with the system. I just remembered the comments about storing the full container with a sealed lid...


----------



## flandria

I am on page 28 of 44 (so far) of post on this topic. I will read on through the rest of it and hopefully not miss anything really important (there are some fleeting comments along the way that may trick me into skipping something I should not).

My interest is real. We sail all the time on the Great Lakes so there is not "off shore limit" to get rid of matter that is not yet compost and thus the practicality of disposing of matter on land on occasion, depending on usage, is the issue that concentrates our minds first.

Now, as an aside, I also see a lot of stuff has been written about C.Diff. and the like and all matter of risk associated with untreated sewage. All valid.

Yet... When I was a boy in post-War (II) Belgium (I'm talking the 50s), I distinctly recall prepping the holes in which we would plant potatoes with raw human sewage from our own cesspit. We propably poured at least 1/2 gallon if not a whole gallon into the hole and then, when it had been absorbed in the soil, we placed the seed potato in it, covered with soil and waited for the stuff to sprout... and onto the next one to be planted... The local farmers did pretty much the same except on a bigger scale! None of us ever got ill and I am sure our hygiene was not nearly as dilligent as it is now. 

This is just an aside, so don't jump on this as promoting stuff we shouldn't be doing.

My personal take, so far, is as follows:

1.- The benefit appears to be primarily in having a (dry) system that is less cumbersome and "cleaner" to maintain and repair. Both "wet" and "dry" systems rely on a subsequent disposal system - be that the municipal or septic system at the pump-out; putting it in the garbage (likely illegal since it is still waste at that time, even if it doesn't look or smell like it) or adding it to a composting system that will finish the task;
2.- You eliminate your stops at the pump out, unless you decide to "save" urine to be discharged there and can afford to be away from the dock much longer;
3.- I am not particularly anxious to adopt the "pee-in-the-water" solution. Sailing on the Great Lakes means we have no "3 mile limit", for one. We are at anchorages in coves where there is no current, or very little current, and 20 or more boats - 50 or more people? - are congregated in a relatively confined area. Yes, urine may be sterile, but I still don't want anyone to do it on my lawn, so why is it OK next to my boat? And more nitrogen in confined water? It may be irrelevant to worry about that, but... So, as a Great Laker, it looks like I may have to opt for a hybrid solution. That kind of defeats the purpose;
4.- So, I will keep on reading and will go to the Airhead etc... websites to learn more. I hope, meanwhile, that my sanitation system on board our Catalina MkII 36 survived another Canadian winter!...

In any case, many thanks to all the contributors to this thread!


----------



## Minnewaska

Thought of all you folks when I saw this:


----------



## MikeOReilly

flandria said:


> 3.- I am not particularly anxious to adopt the "pee-in-the-water" solution. Sailing on the Great Lakes means we have no "3 mile limit", for one. We are at anchorages in coves where there is no current, or very little current, and 20 or more boats - 50 or more people? - are congregated in a relatively confined area. Yes, urine may be sterile, but I still don't want anyone to do it on my lawn, so why is it OK next to my boat? And more nitrogen in confined water? It may be irrelevant to worry about that, but... So, as a Great Laker, it looks like I may have to opt for a hybrid solution. That kind of defeats the purpose;


I agree with your thoughts flandria, but here's a suggestion: come up here to the north and east shore (Canadian) of Superior. If we share an anchorage with anyone it's an unusual event. Once we get away from Thunder Bay and the Sault we see very few people. Peeing overboard?? No problem .


----------



## Egreen024

New member here.
Installed airhead on a oday28, having trouble finding the right vent for system, wanted to have solar with back up dc power. Everything I find the switch would be inside hose. What does everyone used for mushroom vent? Solar/ non solar


----------



## MikeOReilly

Egreen024 said:


> New member here.
> Installed airhead on a oday28, having trouble finding the right vent for system, wanted to have solar with back up dc power. Everything I find the switch would be inside hose. What does everyone used for mushroom vent? Solar/ non solar


Hi Egreen, and welcome to SN. You're posting to a rather old thread here, so you may not see many responses. Feel free to start a new one if this doesn't help.

My Nature's Head is vented via the standard DC fan up through a deck-mounted mushroom vent. It's a pretty standard vent that can be screwed down when I get into big seas. 









Mushroom Ventilator, 3 Inch


Mushroom Vent for Nature's Head Composting Toilet




store.natureshead.net


----------

