# Island hopping between BVI and USVI?



## TakeFive

As some of you may have read on another thread, we are chartering in BVI in January 2013. Although we'll be satisfied if we stay entirely withing BVI, we really love St. John and might like to pop into one or two of their coves during our trip. In addition to hitting some favorite restaurants and meeting up with some friends we know there, it might be nice to pop into Starfish Market about halfway through the week to update our provisions.

What is the procedure for doing this? I assume you first have to go through Customs in Cruz Bay to enter the US, right? What about re-entering BVI on the return trip? Do you have to pay another fee to re-enter, or is there a weekly fee that we pay at the beginning that would allow us to re-enter later in the week?

Any other suggestions?


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## fallard

Don't know about prepayment for a return to the BVI, but I do know that the US officials expect you to check in (e.g., at Cruz Bay) with Customs/Immigration when you come to the USVI and that you have to have everyone in your crew show up in person. When you go back to the BVI they only want the skipper to show up in person, but with passports for all.

BTW, you can tie up to the US customs pier, but they will charge you and you will have to get off the dock ASAP, because it can get very busy. I've done it and don't recommend it for the faint of heart because of the tight quarters and heavy traffic. After 15 minutes they practically pushed me off the pier to make room for other boats. At least the check in process was very fast compared to the BVI.

There is a very small anchorage in Cruz Bay, to your port as you enter, but you probably should pick up a mooring around Linde Pt, towards Caneel Bay, and dinghy in.


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## Zanshin

You will need to clear in and out each time and pay the fees in the BVI. All people aboard your boat must be U.S. citizens or non-citizens with a valid U.S. visa as the visa waiver program doesn't apply to entering the U.S. in private boats. The U.S. doesn't enforce clearing out, but the BVI does require clearance in both directions. Depending upon traffic it can be a breeze in 5 minutes or can take 30-60 minutes.
I agree with fallard that picking up a mooring in Caneel bay and then dinghying over to clear in is a better approach. remember to bring a lock and key for your dinghy while in Cruz Bay.


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## CalypsoP35

It's PIA. I would only do it if I had plenty of time and had a great desire to go to the other country. As Zanshin noted you have to check in and OUT with authorities. So you can't just sail from the BVI's without first going to Soper's hole to get an exit visa. Then you have to get clearance to come back in.


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## FarCry

Take5 make sure your charter vessel has the proper paperwork onboard to clear into the USVI. I suggest you make your charter company aware of your plans. Not all companies keep the documentation on the vessel. The process has been described accurately by the previous posters. The difficulty and times listed are not what I have ever experienced in 7 years and 100s of entries. The most time I recall it taking was 20 minutes from the time I set foot on the Custom's property. That was because I came in just after two ferries landed. Just bad luck once...


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## TakeFive

Thanks for the advice - keep it coming. Since we only have a one week charter, we will not attempt this if it's too onerous. There's plenty to do just staying in BVI. But I was just curious whether it's an option if we choose to. The warning about being sure to have the paperwork onboard is great advice!


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## chef2sail

Waste of time. Provision enough in the beginning , but run out the last day. Bring a few easy to fix stuff in you bags and supplement with fresh produce, fish or seafood when you get there. Why waste time at a store when you can be our sailing, snorkeling, or napping.

Dave


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## TakeFive

chef2sail said:


> Waste of time. Provision enough in the beginning , but run out the last day. Bring a few easy to fix stuff in you bags and supplement with fresh produce, fish or seafood when you get there. Why waste time at a store when you can be our sailing, snorkeling, or napping.
> 
> Dave


Dave - As I mentioned in my OP, we have friends who vacation on St. John during that week, and for various reasons 2013 might be our last chance to see them. Re-provisioning would not be our primary objective - it would just be a side trip if we decided to stop off there for other reasons.


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## chef2sail

Rick,

Ok I reread that, sorry. I guess what I intended was that when we chartered down there three times we tended to eat only early and lunch meals on the boat and I think 2 dinners at anchor so don't over provision.

Which company have you settled on? We d Sunsail 3 times with good reviews. Twice with catamarans. Having a monohull I wanted a different viewpoint. I am still a. Monohull guy, but the room was incredible.

Dave


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## Minnewaska

I suspect this will really be a time eater and add stress to the vacation, but certainly understand wanting to see your friends. If possible, why not add a day or so on either end of your trip and take the ferry over. This would be much easier, if you're already flying in/out of St. Thomas.


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## wingNwing

If the vessel is US documented, and you are US citizens then you can pre-clear with immigration via Local Boaters Option http://www.noonsite.com/Members/sue/R2010-03-12-1 Then you can clear into the US with just a phone call. Might still be a hassle coming back into the BVI but the US side would be easier.


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## TakeFive

chef2sail said:


> ...Which company have you settled on? We d Sunsail 3 times with good reviews....
> Dave


We used Ed Hamilton Co to book a 38' monohull with Sunsail. Click here for more details.


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## ccriders

Thread resurrection in progress!
I'm leaving next week for BVI and 10 day charter with Conch. After studying the cruising guide and planning charts, I'm intrigued with St. John, especially the north shore. I don't find much here on including St. John in a cruise, and need to know if I still have to clear BVI customs outbound, US customs inbound, but not outbound, and then BVI customs inbound upon return? How long after clearing out with BVI does one have to actually get out of Dodge? Do you think I could clear out in Tortola, overnight at Norman Island and then clear inbound to USVI the next day?
That way I could do a circumnavigation of St John and spend one or two nights on the north shore and then head back to Soppers Hole to clear into BVI customs or back to tortola if I left off JVD.
So that begs the question, "Is JVD a must see?"
Thanks,
John


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## Donna_F

For the little bit of time we spent in the USVI, I found it disappointing and dirty. I'm willing to give it a second chance, but it isn't on my list of places to sail to when we return to the BVI.

You do have to clear customs.


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## ccriders

Can you expand on that a bit?
Where did you sail?
Where did you anchor?
What shore activities did you have?
Did you snorkel, if so where and how did it compare with BVI?
Thanks,
John


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## Donna_F

We didn't sail there. We landed at the airport and taxied through town to the ferry. It just didn't leave a very good first impression to make me want to interrupt a BVI trip to sail there.


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## TakeFive

DRFerron said:


> We didn't sail there. We landed at the airport and taxied through town to the ferry. It just didn't leave a very good first impression to make me want to interrupt a BVI trip to sail there.


St. John is a totally different world from St. Thomas, especially the parts you saw near the airport.


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## fallard

TakeFive said:


> St. John is a totally different world from St. Thomas, especially the parts you saw near the airport.


Agree with TakeFive. Much of the waterside of St. John--where you might go as a charterer--is much more laid back that a lot of the popular mooring fields in the BVI. Cruz Bay is where you MUST check in when coming from the BVI before you otherwise set foot on St. John (not that some folks haven't taken liberties.)

I've gone from the USVI to the BVI and back--never the other way around--and I was able to check in and out of the BVI at the same time, specifying the day I would leave the BVI. Presumably the process works in reverse in the BVI. US customs and Immigration can be sticklers about properly checking into the USVI and they will not allow you to import agricultural products from the BVI--even apples originally from Washington state.


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## Shannon Tonin

The times that we have chartered out of the BVI through Moorings, we were not allowed to leave the BVI to go to th usvi, so I would suggest checking with your charter company. Just my experience.


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## Donna_F

TakeFive said:


> St. John is a totally different world from St. Thomas, especially the parts you saw near the airport.


That is really good to know.


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## snmhanson

As far as checking into the USVI, does it have to be Cruz Bay or do you just have to check in at a customs office somewhere before setting foot on land or anchoring? For example, if your are sailing from Soper's Hole to St. Thomas and you are going to be sailing right by Cruz Bay, do you need to stop at Cruz Bay for customs or can you proceed directly to Charlotte Amalie and do customs there?

Also, similar question. Our last trip we sailed from the BVIs to Culebra with an overnight mooring at Christmas Cove - where we didn't get off the boat. Upon arriving in Culebra we called in to do customs and got a stiff warning that we were required to check in at the USVI. I now understand that in that particular case we made a mistake because we took a mooring ball. What if we hadn't stopped at all in the USVI at all though? Would we still have had to done customs there before proceeding to Culebra?

Thanks!


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## TakeFive

snmhanson said:


> As far as checking into the USVI, does it have to be Cruz Bay or do you just have to check in at a customs office somewhere before setting foot on land or anchoring? For example, if your are sailing from Soper's Hole to St. Thomas and you are going to be sailing right by Cruz Bay, do you need to stop at Cruz Bay for customs or can you proceed directly to Charlotte Amalie and do customs there?
> 
> Also, similar question. Our last trip we sailed from the BVIs to Culebra with an overnight mooring at Christmas Cove - where we didn't get off the boat. Upon arriving in Culebra we called in to do customs and got a stiff warning that we were required to check in at the USVI. I now understand that in that particular case we made a mistake because we took a mooring ball. What if we hadn't stopped at all in the USVI at all though? Would we still have had to done customs there before proceeding to Culebra?
> 
> Thanks!


I suspect that the only reason you got in trouble was grabbing an overnight mooring ball in US waters without checking in first.

Ferries from BVI to Charlotte Amalie bypass Cruz Bay all the time. Ferry riders (myself included) pass through customs/immigration in Charlotte Amalie, not Cruz Bay. So I expect you could take a sailboat all the way to Charlotte Amalie too. But I have not actually done that (aside from on the ferry).


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## fallard

ccriders said:


> Can you expand on that a bit?
> Where did you sail?
> Where did you anchor?
> What shore activities did you have?
> Did you snorkel, if so where and how did it compare with BVI?
> Thanks,
> John


We've been to St. John a number of times, picking up moorings in Caneel Bay (primarily to access Cruz Bay for Customs when coming back from the BVI), Hawksnest Bay, Leinster Bay--all along the north coast of St. John. Cruz Bay is also a restaurant and shopping stop. Leinster Bay has good snorkeling along the shore and at Waterlemon Cay, as well as extensive hiking trails (including one to the Annaberg sugar mill complex--a must see in this part of the world. We have also anchored in Cruz Bay, but don't recommend it because of the ferry traffic and tight quarters--best to take a mooring around the corner at Lind Pt towards Caneel bay and dinghy in.

Other favorites are the mooring fields at Salt Pond Bay and the Lameshur bays. All have good snorkeling along the shorelines and are quiet, relaxing areas. Salt Pond bay has a trail to Rams Head which is worth the time. A number of years ago we anchored in Coral Bay and dinghied in to check out the shops and restaurants. Note that most of the water side of St. John is off limits to anchoring and you must use the mooring in these areas. The good news is that the mooring fee is half that of the BVI moorings. If you have a Senior Pass, available from the park service, you get the moorings half price.

St. John is a lot more laid back than the more popular areas in the BVI and lacks the numerous beach bars that are readily available in the BVI. Our chartering has migrated towards the USVI, preferring to charter out of Red Hook on St. Thomas and work our way to the BVI or staying within US waters (including St. Croix and the Spanish Virgins.) There are a few anchorages on the south side of St. Thomas that are OK, but we have generally considered them only as a convenient overnite stop enroute to/from the SVI.

All that said, those new to chartering ought to explore the BVI and St. John before going farther afield to St. Croix or the SVI. Generally you'll find good snorkeling everywhere charter boats are likely to go, but there are more choices in the BVI. In our experience, the Indians is unique among all the Virgins and the caves at Norman Island are a "must do", especially if you have kids and can tolerate rougher water than is the case in protected mooring fields (e.g., the Bight at Norman Island).


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## FarCry

fallard said:


> We've been to St. John a number of times, picking up moorings in Caneel Bay (primarily to access Cruz Bay for Customs when coming back from the BVI), Hawksnest Bay, Leinster Bay--all along the north coast of St. John. Cruz Bay is also a restaurant and shopping stop. Leinster Bay has good snorkeling along the shore and at Waterlemon Cay, as well as extensive hiking trails (including one to the Annaberg sugar mill complex--a must see in this part of the world. We have also anchored in Cruz Bay, but don't recommend it because of the ferry traffic and tight quarters--best to take a mooring around the corner at Lind Pt towards Caneel bay and dinghy in.
> 
> Other favorites are the mooring fields at Salt Pond Bay and the Lameshur bays. All have good snorkeling along the shorelines and are quiet, relaxing areas. Salt Pond bay has a trail to Rams Head which is worth the time. A number of years ago we anchored in Coral Bay and dinghied in to check out the shops and restaurants. Note that most of the water side of St. John is off limits to anchoring and you must use the mooring in these areas. The good news is that the mooring fee is half that of the BVI moorings. If you have a Senior Pass, available from the park service, you get the moorings half price.
> 
> St. John is a lot more laid back than the more popular areas in the BVI and lacks the numerous beach bars that are readily available in the BVI. Our chartering has migrated towards the USVI, preferring to charter out of Red Hook on St. Thomas and work our way to the BVI or staying within US waters (including St. Croix and the Spanish Virgins.) There are a few anchorages on the south side of St. Thomas that are OK, but we have generally considered them only as a convenient overnite stop enroute to/from the SVI.
> 
> All that said, those new to chartering ought to explore the BVI and St. John before going farther afield to St. Croix or the SVI. Generally you'll find good snorkeling everywhere charter boats are likely to go, but there are more choices in the BVI. In our experience, the Indians is unique among all the Virgins and the caves at Norman Island are a "must do", especially if you have kids and can tolerate rougher water than is the case in protected mooring fields (e.g., the Bight at Norman Island).


Fallard's post is spot on and reflects the opinion of most that have actually "been there and done that". On the other hand, I'm not so unhappy with DR's negative comments about the USVI (which covers many islands that are many miles apart) based on a taxi ride from the St Thomas airport to the ferry terminal on St Thomas. The sailors that think St John is dirty and unappealing based on those statements will help keep that beautiful area from getting congested for me. The SVIs are ugly too!!!! Stay away!!!


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## Minnewaska

Yes, judging the entire USVIs on Charolette Amelie is pretty unfair. However, I agree that CA is a complete and unashamed, corrupt, dump. The infamous jewelry shopping can be a complete rip off too. Get as far away as possible and it becomes gorgeous. St. John's and St. Croix are totally different places.


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## fallard

Charlotte Amalie during the day is an interesting place. Sure, the duty free shopping area is a cookie cutter version of the duty free shopping areas where the cruise ships stop--like Philipsburg, St. Maarten--but the architecture is very interesting, as is the fort downtown. There are some excellent restaurants in the vicinity, like Herve (near the 99 steps) and Oceana (by Frenchtown), but we haven't been back there for about 2-3 years and can't guarantee things haven't changed. The market area between the duty free shops and the fort is interesting, but a little goes a long way. As anyone will tell you, avoid walking downtown after dark--that's what taxis are for. 

There are some nice areas of St. Thomas. When we charter out of Red Hook, we walked to the adjacent restaurants and the local grocery store by American Wharf (which is gated in the evening) and never felt ill at ease. The locals with the means tend to live in nice, non-touristy areas, including the north side of St. Thomas. In any case, we don't regard St. Thomas as a "destination", but a reasonable stopover before or after a charter.


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## FarCry

fallard said:


> Charlotte Amalie during the day is an interesting place. Sure, the duty free shopping area is a cookie cutter version of the duty free shopping areas where the cruise ships stop--like Philipsburg, St. Maarten--but the architecture is very interesting, as is the fort downtown. There are some excellent restaurants in the vicinity, like Herve (near the 99 steps) and Oceana (by Frenchtown), but we haven't been back there for about 2-3 years and can't guarantee things haven't changed. The market area between the duty free shops and the fort is interesting, but a little goes a long way. As anyone will tell you, avoid walking downtown after dark--that's what taxis are for.
> 
> There are some nice areas of St. Thomas. When we charter out of Red Hook, we walked to the adjacent restaurants and the local grocery store by American Wharf (which is gated in the evening) and never felt ill at ease. The locals with the means tend to live in nice, non-touristy areas, including the north side of St. Thomas. In any case, we don't regard St. Thomas as a "destination", but a reasonable stopover before or after a charter.


There's been a few changes since you were here. Herve's has been closed for a few years. Oceana is still open and consistently very good. A few other places in Frenchtown have changed names.

Too many restaurants have changed in Red Hook to list. The grocery store you refer to in Red Hook, Marina Market, has been closed for quite a while. There no longer is a grocery store within walking distance of Red Hook.


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## TQA

Don't forget that the USVI has the highest murder rate in the Caribbean and is in the top 5 world wide.


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## TakeFive

TQA said:


> Don't forget that the USVI has the highest murder rate in the Caribbean and is in the top 5 world wide.


You might want to break that down by the individual islands. Crime usually happens in pockets.


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## fallard

Murder rates in the Caribbean fluctuate year-to-year. Recent data indicate that St.Kitts and Nevis (45.5 murders/100,000) had the highest rate for 2013, followed Jamaica (44.1), the Bahamas (34.1), and the USVI (32.9). Next were Trinidad and Tobago (30.5), followed by St Vincent and the Grenadines (27.6), St. Lucia (20.1), Dominica (16.8), Anguilla 14.8, Turks and Caicos (8.8), Barbados (8.7), Cayman Islands (7.0), and the BVI (3.5).

By comparison, New Orleans has a much higher rate than any of the Caribbean countries.

In any case, murders in the Caribbean rarely involve tourists. It certainly helps to acquire "street smarts" whenever you are in a new area. The tourism industry--particularly local hotels, charter bases, restaurants, etc., will provide advice, like taking a taxi after dark in certain areas. Muggings are more of a risk for tourists than murder.


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## Minnewaska

I really don't get how the US lets all the corruption and crime occur in the USVIs. Being an island, there is no where to hide. Any commitment to this should be able to clean it up in a weekend, although, would require a substantial police/military force for a while. You would first need to hire half the locals to build a huge jail and after 3 to 5 years, when the bad guys get the point, convert it to a hotel to handle the increase in tourism as a result of lower crime. There are a lot of very good people on the islands (often quite religious too), but there is a bad element that they even steer clear from and I'm sure would like to see eradicated.


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## TakeFive

ccriders said:


> Thread resurrection in progress!
> I'm leaving next week for BVI and 10 day charter with Conch. After studying the cruising guide and planning charts, I'm intrigued with St. John, especially the north shore. I don't find much here on including St. John in a cruise, and need to know if I still have to clear BVI customs outbound, US customs inbound, but not outbound, and then BVI customs inbound upon return? How long after clearing out with BVI does one have to actually get out of Dodge? Do you think I could clear out in Tortola, overnight at Norman Island and then clear inbound to USVI the next day?
> That way I could do a circumnavigation of St John and spend one or two nights on the north shore and then head back to Soppers Hole to clear into BVI customs or back to tortola if I left off JVD.
> So that begs the question, "Is JVD a must see?"
> Thanks,
> John


How did it go? Did you check out of BVI and into USVI? How did the logistics work for you? And how was Conch? (I've heard mixed reviews on them.)


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## gts1544

Since the only place to clear USC & BP on St. John that I am aware of is Cruz Bay on the western end of the island, you may want to look into a USC & BP program called the "*Local Boater Option*". While I am not yet enrolled, I intend to be so. It is my understanding that you can enroll into the program at USC & BP in Cruz Bay allowing you to check in by phone in the future. Example: You clear out of the BVI's at Jost or Soper's and want to go to Coral Bay on the very east end of St. John. This program allows you to check in by phone, thus avoiding almost a full days sail to Cruz Bay and return.

Remember that you must check into and out of the BVI's, while it is only necessary to check into the US. Another problem area that gets people in trouble is the fact that the USVI are _special tax free zones _and as such require that you clear US Customs when entering the taxable US, ie: Puerto Rico or the mainland. If in doubt, ask.


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## FarCry

The application process isn't as simple as it used to be. What is anymore? Years ago when my wife and I went down to the local CBP office with passports and boat docs it took all of 15 minutes to walk out of there with LBO numbers. Now it's my understanding that you must apply online, get an appointment for an interview and then get your number at some later date. I could be off a bit as I'm repeating the experience of a friend who recently waded through the process. You might start by looking here https://svrs.cbp.dhs.gov/ I didn't see any locations listed along the coast of Wyoming.

The system works great once you've got the number. I cross in and out of the BVI and PR frequently.


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## TakeFive

gts1544 said:


> Since the only place to clear USC & BP on St. John that I am aware of is Cruz Bay on the western end of the island, you may want to look into a USC & BP program called the "*Local Boater Option*". While I am not yet enrolled, I intend to be so. It is my understanding that you can enroll into the program at USC & BP in Cruz Bay allowing you to check in by phone in the future. Example: You clear out of the BVI's at Jost or Soper's and want to go to Coral Bay on the very east end of St. John. This program allows you to check in by phone, thus avoiding almost a full days sail to Cruz Bay and return.
> 
> Remember that you must check into and out of the BVI's, while it is only necessary to check into the US. Another problem area that gets people in trouble is the fact that the USVI are _special tax free zones _and as such require that you clear US Customs when entering the taxable US, ie: Puerto Rico or the mainland. If in doubt, ask.


Let us know how it goes for you. When I checked into the "Local Boater Option," a couple years ago, the procedures seemed to be set up to cater only to "Local Boaters." (Hence the name.) I doubt that a tourist who charters down there once every year or two would be willing to have his entire chartering group make a special trip down there for an interview.


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## FarCry

TakeFive said:


> Let us know how it goes for you. When I checked into the "Local Boater Option," a couple years ago, the procedures seemed to be set up to cater only to "Local Boaters." (Hence the name.) I doubt that a tourist who charters down there once every year or two would be willing to have his entire chartering group make a special trip down there for an interview.


If you click on the link I provided you will see a list of locations to do the application process. I glanced at the list and saw Erie,PA listed. There may be others closer to you like Dover, DE. One does not have to come "down here" to get the LBO.


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## ccriders

Take Five,
Well, we did not go to St John. During our boat briefing we were told the holding tank had been bypassed and that we only had over board flushing of the head. Since that would be illegal to operate in US waters we completely revised or sail plan. While I was a little put off by this fact, I have to say Conch was just fine, very laid back and otherwise accommodating. I guess you get what you pay for and we were taking some equipment risks with a twelve year old boat. The sailing was fabulous, I just can't believe the difference deep water makes in 20 kts, versus our shallow bay. I must go again, and will consider Conch on my next charter, but on a newer boat.
John


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## TakeFive

ccriders said:


> ..During our boat briefing we were told the holding tank had been bypassed and that we only had over board flushing of the head...I was a little put off by this fact...


I would be a lot put off by this fact. People swim off their boats in mooring fields like the Bight, Virgin Gorda, etc., and the thought of people dumping their sewage in those confined areas is disgusting.

Are all of Conch's boats rigged like that? Regardless of the letter of the law, it would seem irresponsible not to do their plumbing properly.


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## SVAuspicious

TakeFive said:


> I would be a lot put off by this fact. People swim off their boats in mooring fields like the Bight, Virgin Gorda, etc., and the thought of people dumping their sewage in those confined areas is disgusting.
> 
> Are all of Conch's boats rigged like that? Regardless of the letter of the law, it would seem irresponsible not to do their plumbing properly.


Recall that there are no pump out facilities of any kind in the BVI. It would be nice if charterers would use the tank in anchorages and dump in the Channel or the Atlantic. Unfortunately when a charterer returns a boat with contents in the holding tank it costs the charter company a lot of time and labor to get the boat out to dump the tank so some have bypassed the tank to avoid the problem.


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## FarCry

SVAuspicious said:


> Recall that there are no pump out facilities of any kind in the BVI. It would be nice if charterers would use the tank in anchorages and dump in the Channel or the Atlantic. Unfortunately when a charterer returns a boat with contents in the holding tank it costs the charter company a lot of time and labor to get the boat out to dump the tank so some have bypassed the tank to avoid the problem.


Why not deduct the costs to empty the holding tank from the deposit left by the charter guest if they "forget" to take care of that before returning the boat? Money is typically a good motivator for most. Confirming the tanks are empty could easily be integrated into the debrief at the end of a trip.


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## Donna_F

FarCry said:


> Why not deduct the costs to empty the holding tank from the deposit left by the charter guest if they "forget" to take care of that before returning the boat? Money is typically a good motivator for most. Confirming the tanks are empty could easily be integrated into the debrief at the end of a trip.


That's what Sunsail does. It didn't seem like too much of a hardship to sail out and empty the tank. After all, we were still sailing.

I can't wrap my head around a charter boat that has no holding tank and the only option is direct discharge.


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## ccriders

Overboard discharge is not unique to Conch and as SVA points out there are no pump out facilities in BVI. I wonder if there are some in USVI? I just did not anticipate that BVI would be so lax in this and would mirror US laws. We saw brown water clouds emitting from several boats chartered by several different companies, so not unique to Conch, just wasn't included in any of the pre-charter information.
John


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## ccriders

DRFerron said:


> That's what Sunsail does. It didn't seem like too much of a hardship to sail out and empty the tank. After all, we were still sailing.
> 
> I can't wrap my head around a charter boat that has no holding tank and the only option is direct discharge.


We were on a 12 year old boat and it would be my guess that the holding tank presented too many problems and had to be bypassed. Given no legal incentive to remedy it for use and easy pump out is just too expensive. The plumbing which all can be found under the lavatory in the head was very confusing and not easy to operate. Too much stuff in one tiny space.
Lesson learned, inquire next time as it gave us some little problem to wait until out of the anchorages, which not everyone does.
John


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## Minnewaska

I recall there being a charge with Horizon, if you returned the boat with any contents in the holding tank. In fact, the briefer recommended never closing the value for that reason. 

What I found more remarkable was how the tank/lines had permeated on a 3yr old boat that never seemed to hold any contents. Can only happen, if you don't flush enough water and actually "hold" the waste in the plumbing that rises to the vented loop. No doubt the credit card sailors just flush until it's no longer visible, like they were sailing their condo.


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## SVAuspicious

FarCry said:


> Why not deduct the costs to empty the holding tank from the deposit left by the charter guest if they "forget" to take care of that before returning the boat? Money is typically a good motivator for most. Confirming the tanks are empty could easily be integrated into the debrief at the end of a trip.


Some of the larger charter companies like Moorings and Sunsail turn boats around between charters in just a few hours. There isn't time for an extra trip out to the Channel. It would throw schedules off and inconvenience the inbound charterer who hasn't done anything wrong.

I'm not saying it's right, just the way it is.


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## FarCry

ccriders said:


> Overboard discharge is not unique to Conch and as SVA points out there are no pump out facilities in BVI. I wonder if there are some in USVI? I just did not anticipate that BVI would be so lax in this and would mirror US laws. We saw brown water clouds emitting from several boats chartered by several different companies, so not unique to Conch, just wasn't included in any of the pre-charter information.
> John


I personally do not have a problem with overboard discharge if it's not in an anchorage or close to one. Yes there are a few pump out facilities on St Thomas. I do not know about the other USVI. There are no regulations that I've every seen for discharge in the BVI. Do not ask about waste water treatment in Roadtown.....

When I do a charter boat briefing I am very thorough as to how the holding tanks operate if the charter guest will let me show them. Some state immediately that they will not use them so there's not much use in spending time showing them how simple the systems are. I can only encourage people, once they leave, they make their own decisions. Most charters starting in the USVI spend the majority of their time in the BVI.


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## FarCry

SVAuspicious said:


> Some of the larger charter companies like Moorings and Sunsail turn boats around between charters in just a few hours. There isn't time for an extra trip out to the Channel. It would throw schedules off and inconvenience the inbound charterer who hasn't done anything wrong.
> 
> I'm not saying it's right, just the way it is.


What happens if the boat is broken? Just playing a little devil's advocate.

I would think the larger companies would have a better opportunity to substitute other boats than the smaller companies if it needs to be taken out of use for a brief period.

I hear you in that it's not right, just the way it "currently" is. Do you think if more charter guests bitched about not even being able to dump their tanks out and away the charter companies might change their policies?


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## TakeFive

FarCry said:


> ...Do not ask about waste water treatment in Roadtown...


No need to ask. All it takes is a little walk from the Moorings/Sunsail part of the marina back into the stagnant corner where they keep the Footloose boats. The stench tells you that the sewage just flows down the hill into the water. uke


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## Donna_F

FarCry said:


> ... Do you think if more charter guests bitched about not even being able to dump their tanks out and away the charter companies might change their policies?


I'm not trying to be difficult, but I guess I don't understand why it's such a hardship to go out and dump the tank. We were there to sail so we sailed out.

After reading this thread, something John said when we were out dumping our tank now makes more sense: We sailed out and he climbed below to open the tank and thought that it had been open the entire time.

During our debriefing the charter guy just pointed to the tank and told us what to do. We never actually climbed down to make sure it was closed. Didn't think that was necessary.


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## fallard

It is only in the past few years that we have been asked to use the holding tank in harbors by Island Yacht Charters (St.Thomas), but to empty it outside before returning to the base.

We, too have been concerned about direct discharge in places like The Bight (Norman Island, BVI), but haven't noticed anything gross when snorkeling along the shoreline. Given that The Bight has an average water depth of about 50 ft, there is a lot of dilution of raw sewerage from the boats in the harbor, but it is still offensive to think that folks routinely discharge into these harbors.

Perhaps it is past time for the charter bases to insist on closed heads and provide for pump outs at the charter base. Given the level of (in)competence we've witnessed among charterers, it may be too much to expect that the instructions on overboard pump outs in the open areas, like the Drake Channel, will be routinely observed.


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## TakeFive

DRFerron said:


> I'm not trying to be difficult, but I guess I don't understand why it's such a hardship to go out and dump the tank...


I agree. Maybe I'm overestimating the plumbing skills of the charter customer base, but it's not rocket science.

Moreover, at Sunsail, the importance of dumping the tank before returning to the charter base, and the high fee that would be charged for failure to do so, was made abundantly clear both in the charter checkout and in the documents that we had to sign. If you had any attention span at all, you walked away with the clear message "We better empty the damned tank."

I should also mention that our Sunsail 38 (Sun Odyssey 379) had a remarkably simple holding tank arrangement. It was directly above and behind the toilet bowl, with such a short hose that it took almost no water to prevent permeation. Just open the front panel and turn the valve. A side effect of this positioning was that the tank was much smaller than a true cruiser might want, but it was plenty big for someone who hops between the different islands every day or two. Just open one valve while underway, and you could hear the Bernoulli effect sucking the tank dry. Piece of cake.


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## FarCry

DRFerron said:


> I'm not trying to be difficult, but I guess I don't understand why it's such a hardship to go out and dump the tank. We were there to sail so we sailed out.
> 
> After reading this thread, something John said when we were out dumping our tank now makes more sense: We sailed out and he climbed below to open the tank and thought that it had been open the entire time.
> 
> During our debriefing the charter guy just pointed to the tank and told us what to do. We never actually climbed down to make sure it was closed. Didn't think that was necessary.


I don't think you are being difficult at all. It's not that difficult to sail out and dump a tank. It's not that difficult to grab a mooring ball or dock a boat or, well I could go on...

I don't know who John is or what you are referring to.

A debrief is at the end of a charter. At the end of a charter the tank should be open. That way you and the charter company know it is empty.


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## TakeFive

FarCry said:


> ...At the end of a charter the tank should be open. That way you and the charter company know it is empty.


We closed ours. We didn't realize that BVI was unregulated. We did know the potential consequences of getting caught with an open tank in US coastal waters, and didn't want to risk that in Road Town.


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## FarCry

fallard said:


> It is only in the past few years that we have been asked to use the holding tank in harbors by Island Yacht Charters (St.Thomas), but to empty it outside before returning to the base.
> 
> We, too have been concerned about direct discharge in places like The Bight (Norman Island, BVI), but haven't noticed anything gross when snorkeling along the shoreline. Given that The Bight has an average water depth of about 50 ft, there is a lot of dilution of raw sewerage from the boats in the harbor, but it is still offensive to think that folks routinely discharge into these harbors.
> 
> Perhaps it is past time for the charter bases to insist on closed heads and provide for pump outs at the charter base. Given the level of (in)competence we've witnessed among charterers, it may be too much to expect that the instructions on overboard pump outs in the open areas, like the Drake Channel, will be routinely observed.


Many modern charter boats do not have enough tankage to hold a week or more worth of waste in a tank. It would have to be emptied before returning to the charter base.

Another issue would be the lack of sewage treatment in the BVI. So if the big companies had pump out facilities, what would they do with it? There aren't really any waste water treatment facilities in place to deal with it so it ends up right back in the ocean untreated. Sort of defeats the purpose. Currently I believe the best practice is to hold when anchored/moored and dump when out underway. Not perfect, I know.


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## FarCry

TakeFive said:


> We closed ours. We didn't realize that BVI was unregulated. We did know the potential consequences of getting caught with an open tank in US coastal waters, and didn't want to risk that in Road Town.


Your briefer should have told you how they want it handled. Each charter company may have different policies. You did what you thought was best and I would never fault that when not given enough information.

This subject get covered and revisited every few months on traveltalkonline dot com Feel free to search that site. Things are pretty highly moderated over there and threads get shut down quickly that wander into some of the dirtier aspects, like poop!


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## Donna_F

FarCry said:


> ...
> 
> A debrief is at the end of a charter. At the end of a charter the tank should be open. That way you and the charter company know it is empty.


My fault. I meant the boat check before we left for the week when the rep goes over the boat systems.


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## FarCry

DRFerron said:


> My fault. I meant the boat check before we left for the week when the rep goes over the boat systems.


I don't know how every company does things. The policy where I work is that the valves are all open at the start of a charter. The reasoning behind that is that the charter guests can't come back and say they were sent out with full tanks. There are clear instructions on the boat describing how the holding tanks work.

I think I've covered this subject. Unless something new comes up, I'm retiring from this one.


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## fallard

FarCry said:


> Many modern charter boats do not have enough tankage to hold a week or more worth of waste in a tank. It would have to be emptied before returning to the charter base.
> 
> Another issue would be the lack of sewage treatment in the BVI. So if the big companies had pump out facilities, what would they do with it? There aren't really any waste water treatment facilities in place to deal with it so it ends up right back in the ocean untreated. Sort of defeats the purpose. Currently I believe the best practice is to hold when anchored/moored and dump when out underway. Not perfect, I know.


Good point about tankage, although we never had a problem when sailing as a couple. One 37 boat we chartered had a 55 gal. holding tank. That would be pushing it if there were 5 or 6 of us aboard for a week.

Another good point is the reality of current waste water facilities, as the cost of matching stateside treatment standards may be prohibitive. Therefore, I would agree with best practice indicated above, but still think there are charterers out there that are technically challenged.

Aesthetics aside, the East-West current outside harbors ought to be adequate to handle charter boat discharges--and then some.


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## TakeFive

All of this reminds me of what an ecological disaster all that parrot fish poop has caused around that area.


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## fallard

FarCry said:


> I don't know how every company does things. The policy where I work is that the valves are all open at the start of a charter. The reasoning behind that is that the charter guests can't come back and say they were sent out with full tanks. There are clear instructions on the boat describing how the holding tanks work.


In my experience, simply having the head open doesn't assure that the holding tank is empty. Rather, you have to pump the tank empty it. Even then, you need to observe the brown trail to assure that the pump was actually evacuating the tank when you do this.


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## SVAuspicious

fallard said:


> Perhaps it is past time for the charter bases to insist on closed heads and provide for pump outs at the charter base.


A couple of thoughts:

First, as noted above just what do you expect to happen to the product? In the BVI all waste gets pumped out into the Sir Francis Drake Channel anyway. So shall we expect the BVI Government or the charter companies to spend a lot of money on pump-outs to consolidate the waste and pump it into the Drake? Where is the value in that?

Second, although part of the UK, the BVI is "managed" by a third-world government. They have trouble with basic infrastructure like electrical power. The government is riddled with corruption and incompetence. Waste treatment has been on their agenda for a long time but nothing happens, overwhelmed by catering to the cruise ship companies and trying to attract more offshore financial business.


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## Minnewaska

fallard said:


> In my experience, simply having the head open doesn't assure that the holding tank is empty. Rather, you have to pump the tank empty it. Even then, you need to observe the brown trail to assure that the pump was actually evacuating the tank when you do this.


Every bareboat I've been on had a gravity drained holding tank: Bavaria, Beneteau, Jeanneau.

I would love to contribute funding to a scientific study of dumping recreational holding tanks. I believe it has zero impact in large bodies of water, such as Drake Passage and Narragansett Bay (illegal in the latter). I also believe it is inappropriate in closed harbors, whether illegal or not.

However, human intuition is not good enough to lay down the law, IMO. I want to see a study on the effect of dilution. While gross, I've witnessed the "cloud" exit our bareboat in the clear blue water of the BVI. It was completely indistinguishable within 10 ft. There are millions of cubic feet of water even in a closed harbor. Someone really needs to do study.


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