# My first sailboat: Paceship 26 or Tartan 30?



## Nitefly (Dec 6, 2009)

Greetings! This is my first post, but I have been doing research on this forum for the past few months however. I am preparing to purchase my first Good Old Boat and I have narrowed it down to two boats, both with some minor flaws (I hope). My intended use is for overnight camping on the Chesapeake bay with my wife and two teenage daughters and possibly a longer trip once a year. Any advice? 

Here are my contenders:

1. 1976 Tartan 30 - Interior and Exterior both look great. Has dodger and bimini. There is one small soft spot on the deck. I thought that these were not cored decks, but the owner said it was. No roller furling. No shore power hook up. The atomic 4 engine looked in good condition and just had carb rebuilt. The main issue I see with this boat is that there is a small amount of seperation between the lead ballast (fin keel) and the rest of the keel. The owner stated the the yard mechanic said the bolts cannot be tightened further. He has been filling in a little whenever he paints the boat. It just looks like a 1/2 inch seem between the two. Is this a big issue?

2. 197X Paceship 26 - This boat is in great shape. Has bimini but no dodger. 5 year old Yanmar 1 cylinder 10hp diesel with low hours. Roller furling. beautifully maintained interior (both boats have minor leaks). This boat has an iron keel and there is a small area of rust at the leading edge that the owner does some maintenance on every year. Very nice boat and a little cheaper than the Tartan!

I am really torn between the two and if I can elimnate one and just get the survey on the other, that would save me some money. The wife really likes the Paceship and I am leaning toward the larger Tartan if the keel is not a big issue. Either way, I am excited to be taking the plunge!


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

With two teenage daughters, I know from experience that bigger is better. The Tartan's keel/hull joint, however, with a half inch gap, would give me pause if that's what it is. That much play could mean the keelbolts are getting bent each time the boat hits a wave - again and again and again. Until they break off: goodbye keel & boat. Or perhaps there's a half-inch "gutter" there for fairing compound and it's supposed to be like that. I would find out more on a Tartan bulletin board somewhere. Refastening and rebedding the keel would be the fix. Pricey - if it needs fixing.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

30ft is better for a family for sure. T30s are in abundance on the Bay. Are you sure you want one with A4 engine? I'd also suggest Pearsons, Oday, erricsons,


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## Nitefly (Dec 6, 2009)

Paulk and Denise,

Thanks for the responses. I might add a third boat to the mix tomorrow. Im going to see a Bristol 32. The thought of having to do a repair to the keel on the Tartan is scaring my away from that one. But if the Bristol isn't so nice, maybe I'll hire someone to inspect the keel on the Tartan.

Denise - are there a lot of issues with the A4 engine? If it is recently rebuilt, does that make it less of an issue?


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## mccary (Feb 24, 2002)

If it were me, I would keep looking. There is no way I would consider a boat with a half inch gap between the keel and stub, sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Add to that the Atomic 4 and that cinches the no deal on that Tartan.

As to the Paceship 26, I too think that is way too small for a family of 4 (certainly with 2 teenagers). As others have said, teenagers need their own space and a 36 foot just doesn't have it...

My wife and I sail a 27' and find it barely enough space for more than day sailing. Plan accordingly.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

The T30 is a desireable classic, and a far better sailor IMHO than the Paceship or Bristol. The T30 is built like a tank, I'd consider it unlikely the keel is sperating unless the lead has obvious damage from abuse. Do you really mean that it is loose, or has some filler come out of the keel/hull joint, creating the apprearance of a crack? This condition is quite common on fin keel boats...Not to say this boat can't be a problem, just not likely, and worth getting a professional opinion on. The T30 is a sweetheart of a sailboat.


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## Nitefly (Dec 6, 2009)

sailingfool said:


> The T30 is a desireable classic, and a far better sailor IMHO than the Paceship or Bristol. The T30 is built like a tank, I'd consider it unlikely the keel is sperating unless the lead has obvious damage from abuse. Do you really mean that it is loose, or has some filler come out of the keel/hull joint, creating the apprearance of a crack? This condition is quite common on fin keel boats...Not to say this boat can't be a problem, just not likely, and worth getting a professional opinion on. The T30 is a sweetheart of a sailboat.


It is definately not loose. I contacted the owner to get more information on it and I'm going to find someone to get a second opinion. The owner assures me it is not an issue.

Anyone know any good surveryors in the Annapolis area?


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

I like the Paceship.

It is really a 27 foot vessel and has a lot of room compared to most 26 inside. of the two it sounds to be in much better condition and if it suits your needs is the better boat.

In all reality if you have two teenage daughters you need not worry too much about sleeping four people on the boat. Unless your daughters are avid sailors they will be unlikely to accompany you often especially overnight. Usually they have "sleepover" plans that are much more fun than spending a night camping with mom and Dad....

I come from a family of 7. My parents upgraded from a Spirit 28 to a C&C 36 back in 1981 so they could sleep 6. there was never more than 3 people aboard overnight in the 9 years they owned the boat.

The PY26 was a well built boat and sails reasonably well for a 27 foot boat of its time. is likely an early 70s boat - around 1974.

Mike


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## wwilson (Jul 7, 2000)

No opinion on the boat but sailingfool is exactly right below:



sailingfool said:


> ...I'd consider it unlikely the keel is sperating unless the lead has obvious damage from abuse. Do you really mean that it is loose, or has some filler come out of the keel/hull joint, creating the apprearance of a crack? This condition is quite common on fin keel boats...


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

First of all, both are boats that I like a lot as well rounded good sailing designs. Both are good boats for the Chesapeake, but of the two, if the prices are close together, I would definitely buy the Tartan 30 which is a very superior boat all around.

Of course, that is dependent on the keel situation. Without a careful examination there is no way for anyone, let alone us on the forum to tell you what is going on with the keel. As speculated, the gap may only be an issue with the fairing material. On the other hand, it could be something far more serious. I would seriously doubt that the owner would know whether this is a more serious problem. And just because this only visible on the Tartan does not mean that a similar problem does not exist on the Paceship. 

Both boats are old enough that thier keel boats could be shot. They are both of an age, where it is prudent to lower the keel away from the keel stub, clean out the joint, inspect the keel bolts carefully and rebed the joint. If prior owners have not done this already you need to think of this as standard long term maintenance on a boat this age. Its not all that expensive to do but it is critical to the safety of the boat. 

As to the Atomic 4, I have had great luck with these engines. Properly maintained they are very reliable and easier and cheaper to work on than most diesels. But they do require some mechanical skills. If you are reasonably knowledgable about how engines work and reasonably good at working on engines, then these are a great engine for a first time boat owner. But if you do not trust your mechanical skills, then perhaps it would be better to look for a boat with a diesel instead. 

There are a lot of very good marine surveyors in the Annapolis area. Given the potential structural issues with the keel I would suggest someone like Jack Hornor (Marine Survey & Design Co) , Steven Uhthoff, or Peter Hartoff, who are all very experienced surveryors and understand structural issues on boats this age. 

If you do proceed with the Tartan you will need to include as a part of your offer permission to remove fairing and caulking materials at the keel joint as a part of the survey. Contracts for purchase typically are conditional on being able to survey the boat but limit surveys to non-destructive examinations. Removing caulk or fairing material would be considered destructive examination. Since you can't tell much aboput what is going on without removing these materials then you will need permission to do so. Your offer will also have to stipulate that you will be responsible for recaulking or fairing those areas where you have removed materials, whether or not you buy the boat. If the owner balks then walk away and keep looking. 

Good luck,
Jeff


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## Nitefly (Dec 6, 2009)

Jeff- thank you for the survey contacts and your point of view on these boats

Thanks for the information everyone. I made an offer on the Tartan, but I have competition. We'll see! If this one doesn't work out, the Paceship is still in the water... Ill take the whole family down and try out the space.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

the mere mention of the A4 can get some very "passionate" responses. There are posts all over the boards about them and how they drag the price of really good boats down to give away prices. 
Personally I don't want gasoline anywhere near me when on the water. I see allot of power boats go by and the raw gas smell alone scares me! vapors in closed spaces or compartments = disaster (imho) But on the other hand, who actually has had A4 blow up? 
Dropping a keel is not all that hard it's the cost that would worry me. From what I understand yards don't like to tie up the travel lift while the keel is off the boat. Heck, if you get a boat that is pristine in every other way (I've actually considered this) you can repower with die$sel! Still though, there are hundreds, thousands? of boats out there with diesels that are cheap enough.
Maryland sailboats for sale by owner.


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## Nitefly (Dec 6, 2009)

deniseO30 said:


> the mere mention of the A4 can get some very "passionate" responses. There are posts all over the boards about them and how they drag the price of really good boats down to give away prices.
> Personally I don't want gasoline anywhere near me when on the water. I see allot of power boats go by and the raw gas smell alone scares me! vapors in closed spaces or compartments = disaster (imho) But on the other hand, who actually has had A4 blow up?
> Dropping a keel is not all that hard it's the cost that would worry me. From what I understand yards don't like to tie up the travel lift while the keel is off the boat. Heck, if you get a boat that is pristine in every other way (I've actually considered this) you can repower with die$sel! Still though, there are hundreds, thousands? of boats out there with diesels that are cheap enough.
> Maryland sailboats for sale by owner.


Thanks Denise. This boat is inexpensive enough that if I have to put a new diesel in it, it would bring it in line with many other boats of the same model price wise. In fact, Ill plan on that down the road, but I'll try the A4 for now. I'll find out in a few hours... eck.. butterflies in the stomach! Thanks for the link too. I hadn't seen this site yet.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Mistake one! getting emotional over a boat! detach detach be objective.. remember it's a buyers market! good luck!


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

My tartan 30 had an A4 for years. It finally died when the cooling circiut rusted up and it would overheat (it did not have a heat exchanger). I now have a 3 cyl universal diesel which has proven to be very reliable. I think your plan to live with the A4 for now is a good one as long as you understand the safety measures involved and keep it well maintained. I hope you get the boat, we love ours.


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## Nitefly (Dec 6, 2009)

Offer accepted on the Tartan. Got a dinghy too! Now... on to the survey. Perhaps I'll see some of you on the West river next spring!


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## wwilson (Jul 7, 2000)

Nitefly,

Congratulations!

Be sure and let us know the surveyor's assessment of the keel/hull joint.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Geeze you guys are tough. I bought a 25' that is rated to sleep 5 (this was back in 1969 when everyone smoked and weighed 110 lbs). I know that in today's reality that's really more like 4 people.

For the OP's stated purpose of *weekend cruising* with 2 teens, the 26' would have worked. Not to mention, as one of the other posters stated, the teens aren't likely to come out every time, especially when they see the amount of work involved, like loading, stowing, mooring, clean-up afterwards, etc, to say nothing of the work required to actually operate the boat.


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## Nitefly (Dec 6, 2009)

The survey was completed this morning. There were a couple of things: muffler and exhaust hose on the engine, and one major issue - a 7' x 1.5' section of the deck under the starboard genoa track was soft. 

Is this deck issue as serious as it sounds? I am about ready to walk away from this one, but the surveyor did say many other aspects of the boat (hull and interior) were very well cared for and in good shape. 

If nothing else, I accompanied the surveyor all morning and got a good lesson on how to inspect the next one.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Nitefly said:


> The survey was completed this morning. There were a couple of things: muffler and exhaust hose on the engine, and one major issue - a 7' x 1.5' section of the deck under the starboard genoa track was soft.
> 
> Is this deck issue as serious as it sounds? I am about ready to walk away from this one, but the surveyor did say many other aspects of the boat (hull and interior) were very well cared for and in good shape.
> 
> If nothing else, I accompanied the surveyor all morning and got a good lesson on how to inspect the next one.


A deck repair is not a trivial matter...but in the big picture of an older boat, one, limited issue like amounts to "almost new". Most any boat will have survey issues, most will have a lot. Sounds like you are starting in reasonably good shape, a limited deck repair like this is only some $$$$ money, get a good yard to quote for you...more likely than not the seller will end up eating most or all of a repair like this. You found it, so will the next buyer, so the seller needs to deal with it. You now have more information, no reason not to move ahead if otherwise an attractive boat.

Just curious, what did the surveyor say about the keel "crack"?


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## Nitefly (Dec 6, 2009)

sailingfool said:


> A deck repair is not a trivial matter...but in the big picture of an older boat, one, limited issue like amounts to "almost new". Most any boat will have survey issues, most will have a lot. Sounds like you are starting in reasonably good shape, a limited deck repair like this is only some $$$$ money, get a good yard to quote for you...more likely than not the seller will end up eating most or all of a repair like this. You found it, so will the next buyer, so the seller needs to deal with it. You now have more information, no reason not to move ahead if otherwise an attractive boat.
> 
> Just curious, what did the surveyor say about the keel "crack"?


Thanks. The keel turned out to be a non-issue. He said it was just fairing and that the keel was probably rebedded at one point before. I did get one quote on the decking fix from a boatyard for $4200 (this was a ball park, they still need to actually go see the boat). The surveyor said it would be approximately 5k. Of note, my offer for the boat was 8k so this does add a bit. I'm pretty sure the seller is not going to deduct 4k from the price so if I want to pursue this boat, I may need to pay most of this repair on my own. I informed the seller of the issue and that I would make some phone calls and talk to some people and we could work on were to go from there.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*My first post also!! AND...I may have the very boat for you!!*

Greetings "Nitefly" (from Upstate NY),
I read your posting regarding interest in a possible purchase of a PY-26.

I have been a PY-26 owner for the past 20 years, and now am looking to sell my baby. We are simply not sailing enough these days to make it worthwhile.

She is a 1979 PY-26 in very good condition with an outboard motor. I have two Dacron Mains, headsails of various sizes, and 2 spinakers. New Harkin hardware, lines, winches, tools, and too many other things to list unless interested. If so, then of course a complete accounting of everything would be provided in addition to all services, repairs, etc, etc....

She has been on Canandaigua Lake (one of the Finger Lakes) for her entire life, and has always been moored at the Canandaigua Yacht Club. Lovingly maintained, it will be hard to give her up as I met my wife on the foredeck......and proposed the following year! But, you know how it goes.....change happens.

Anyway, I cannot say enough about this boat. It is a dream to sail!! There is almost never a wind to strong, and she responds like a dream! Please feel free to contact me anytime if you would like more information.....or you would like to come and see her. Presently, she is dry docked at the club.

You can reach me via this forum, or 
Cell: 585-747-0610

Hope to hear from you,
Thanks,
Steve


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## drdkdover (Dec 21, 2009)

*I own a PY26*

I own a PY26, and would at least put my hand up and say it's a great boat. Very Solid, sails well in all conditions, and if it is one of the original PaceSHip's (Gold Anodized Mast) it is a very solidly constructed boat. I can't speak for the AMF (Black ANodized Mast) I know the AMF boats don't have the impeccable reputation the older boats have. It is one of the biggest, roomiest 26ft boats around, was one of the fastest boats at our club, under the former captain (I'm not much of a racer), rather comfortable for 4 people and hasn't really cost me much of anything the first year (It was very well maintained over the past few years, and I have a log of all the paperwork thru the years!) Stays fairly dry, with the weak spot around the Mast thru deck, (The Mast is Keel Stepped- rare for a 26ft) I'll vouch for this boat, and wouldn't think twice about spending some $$$$ to prepare for Island Hopping!


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## Nitefly (Dec 6, 2009)

drdkdover said:


> I own a PY26, and would at least put my hand up and say it's a great boat. Very Solid, sails well in all conditions, and if it is one of the original PaceSHip's (Gold Anodized Mast) it is a very solidly constructed boat. I can't speak for the AMF (Black ANodized Mast) I know the AMF boats don't have the impeccable reputation the older boats have. It is one of the biggest, roomiest 26ft boats around, was one of the fastest boats at our club, under the former captain (I'm not much of a racer), rather comfortable for 4 people and hasn't really cost me much of anything the first year (It was very well maintained over the past few years, and I have a log of all the paperwork thru the years!) Stays fairly dry, with the weak spot around the Mast thru deck, (The Mast is Keel Stepped- rare for a 26ft) I'll vouch for this boat, and wouldn't think twice about spending some $$$$ to prepare for Island Hopping!


Thanks drdkdover. It looks like the Tartan is not going to work out (seller won't split repair of the deck cost) so I may be looking at the Paceship again. I am going to go look at a Pearson Ariel as well. Do you have to do any special maintenance for the iron keel? This paceship has the black anodized mast.


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## fullkeel7 (Apr 16, 2008)

Nitefly said:


> Thanks drdkdover. It looks like the Tartan is not going to work out (seller won't split repair of the deck cost) so I may be looking at the Paceship again. I am going to go look at a Pearson Ariel as well. Do you have to do any special maintenance for the iron keel? This paceship has the black anodized mast.


A WISE decision to walk on the Tartan. The only way I'd make a deck repair of that magnitude is to do it myself. It's not rocket science, but the repair is TIME consuming and at the yard rates of today, could be a hard hit to the wallet. Too many good boats out there to deal with such problems.


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## drdkdover (Dec 21, 2009)

So far I haven't had any special maintenance, the paint is bubbling up a bit at the seam, It has hard bottom paint on it that I'm gonna have to sand down anyway, so I'll sand it all down on the keel and see what the situation is, but I've been assured a bit of epoxy here and there won't be a problem, as long as the bolts are in good shape.. I try to keep the bilge as dry as I can and spray them with WD40 from time to time to keep them clean. The AMF boats were made from the same molds and all, they just made a few design changes. there's a ton of info at www dot paceship dot org, including a history and specs and all that.... AMF sold the molds to Tanzer I believe in the early 80's and came out with the Tanzer 27, based on the PY26. The AMF and the original Paceship should be comparable in quality I suppose, I just no that AMF has had reputation issues with other products, and they almost killed Harley Davidson, which is reason for some of the stigma.. If it feels like a solid boat, it probably is. The former owner of mine, sold it to get an Erickson 32, the "Bigger Boat" for bigger, longer cruising, but man, I think he still misses the PY26, and to be honest, his new one isn't that much roomier all around.......


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## Nitefly (Dec 6, 2009)

Thanks for the advice all. The Tartan owner came down another 2.5k in price after all. That put it in the range that my surveyor called a good deal so I agreed. I also got a kayak thrown in! Next up will be my list of projects for this boat:
1. Fix the deck - I will hire this out.
2. Add shore power
3. Add 30W Solar Panel
4. Roller Furling Head Sail
5. Auto Pilot

The A4 was in good shape so I hope to get several years out of it! Man, buying a boat is so much more dramatic than buying a car!


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## smosh (Aug 11, 2017)

Nitefly said:


> Thanks for the advice all. The Tartan owner came down another 2.5k in price after all. That put it in the range that my surveyor called a good deal so I agreed. I also got a kayak thrown in! Next up will be my list of projects for this boat:
> 1. Fix the deck - I will hire this out.
> 2. Add shore power
> 3. Add 30W Solar Panel
> ...


So, many, many years later - how has the Tartan been? Updates if you have them, please!


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