# Where are the younger people?



## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I have started cruising around recently and I am totally surprised by the age demographics of my fellow sailors. I'd say at least eighty percent, maybe mrr like 90 are over 60 years old. 

I did by grow up around boats and maybe this is a regional thing but it is not what I expected. I have always thought I sailing as the water equivalent of driving a Land Rover across Africa or something so I thought the people out here would be 20-50. It's such a hard and outdoorsy sport, almost I thought it woul be adrenaline filled, water flying over the bow, quick quick quick reef the main, oh no! Sheet out sheet out! But with the temperate weather it's more sitting and "cruising".

I'm sure it can be anything you wan it to be. For example today I got to go aboard a guys Catalina 42 mkII. It had a lot I conveniences I did t know where so common. I thought sailboats were smaller and more basic. This had electric winches. Generator. Two tvs. Two showers. All lines ran to the cockpit and a full enclosure. We talked about it and he say he never had to go on deck except to remove the sail cover if he plan to raise the main that day. So you could sail in more ease than I thought possible. The majority of the boats I'm seeig look like this one. Push a button an the autopilot tacks for you. 

Is this the face of the modern sailor? Not a sunburned, torn pants, looks like he's been castaway on a deserted island? Do younger people not sail? Or do younger people not cruise. If I went to a marina in a city would I see a greater mix or not. Say Baltimore or Newport beach. What is it like there? Who owns boats and who sails?

I am not criticizing I am only observing. Not trying to say set people cannot or should not sail. Maybe I would say that more young people should. But or all I know they do. When I go to a new marina I find myself slightly out of place. It is definitely geared for bigger boats and older people. I woul describe the atmosphere as not unlike a marine RV park. Not really people partyin on the docks after a crazy sail. 

It also goes to the advice I have received on where I want to go. Everyone recommended me go to these really remote wilderness spots. Where I would like more to do. I like the wilderness sometimes, but have been having more fun when there is something on shore like a cool town, which is more of what I am going o be seeking. Otherwise if I ask people where go I go its like go to X island. It's in the middle of nowhere and there's a hiking trail and great anchorage. It's lovely. Harold and I went last year and spent a couple weeks and only saw five other boats. 

I kinda like seeig other boats! What you guys call a crowd is NOT what I call a crowd. To me I am pretty much one step away from the total wild. It's nice but also nice to go to a lively own and see more stuff. Maybe I should have called my post My Observations from a new cruising prospective.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Most of the relatively younger people I run across are in the fast lane. They want everything fast, internet, cell connections, cars, women/men, food and yes, boats, thus eliminating sail boats - well at least most sail boats. Those of in the older/elderly category want things a bit slower. We don't need fast: Internet, cell connections, cars, women/men, food, or boats. Approximately 99-percent of the sailors I met in south Florida were over 50 years of age, and at least 80-percent were over 65 years of age. Captain Jack, who lives aboard a 28-foot sailboat in Marathon City Marina, was 91, still hitting on the younger ladies, and says it's the slow and steady lane for him. 

Good Luck,

Gary


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

I don't see a lot of smaller sailboats in our area--the kind a young family might be able to afford. When we got started in the early '70s there were a lot more small boats and a 30' boat was considered "big". Nowadays it seems that an entry level sailboat is more likely to be in the 22-25' range and your "big" boats are over 40'.

Given that the average boat size has grown over the years, sailing may appear all the more beyond the reach of many young sailors.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

does 42 count? I finally traded in my DInghy for a small pocket cruiser


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I think half of the answer is that you are sailing in the off season. For folks who can only take 2-4 weeks off of work per year they are probably going to wait until it is a bit warmer to go cruising. Everyone says that the Gulf Islands are pretty quiet at this time of year, it is July and August when they are crowded. Jonathan Raban's "Passage to Juneau" demonstrates this well because he sails north on the inside passage in April and south in July and talks about the differences.

When I cruised the San Juans last summer most of the other folks seemed to be middle aged, often with kids, mostly in 30-40' cruising boats that were made in the 70s and 80s. It's true that our Catalina 25 (the one that you met me at about a month ago) was smaller than most of the other boats, but rigging seemed to be about the same. I talked to a lot of other cruisers about their boats and didn't run into any with electric winches. That might be partially self selected though, because I tended to talk to those who owned boats that drew me in.

I have many friends in the Seattle area who are in their 30s and enjoy sailing. Some of them own their boats, some don't. They might get a week of cruising in a year since they are busy with work, family, and other pursuits much of the time. Often "cruising" means 3-4 day trips down here because there isn't time to get up to the islands.

You have a rare chance to cruise at a fairly young age for a long period of time. That'll mean that you see fewer other cruisers your age, but it's still something that I know I'm jealous of.


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## blowinstink (Sep 3, 2007)

I am still pretty young (45). On behalf of the pretty young people (not the people who are really young . . . them bastards), I want to say: your post was way too long to read! 

That said, I think you have a point of sorts. Many cruisers are in a retirement mode and of retirement age. You don't want to be a retiree do you? If not, what you want out of your boat and the water is different. Think about that -- make it meaningful. If you just want to drink in marina bars then maybe you aren't that different than the old crowd. Don't worry so much about how others are doing it. How will YOU do it?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Also it's still school season and those younger cruisers' kids are still in school. Things will shift somewhat come July.

Most cruising boats will likely have many of the amenities you've seen, but many won't. We have refrig, a dodger, cabin heat but not a lot more and comfortably spend 6-8 weeks aboard each summer.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

northoceanbeach said:


> <snip>
> *Is this the face of the modern sailor? *Not a sunburned, torn pants, looks like he's been castaway on a deserted island? Do younger people not sail? Or do younger people not cruise.


You got it, bub.

In 'Murica, we gots two kinds of young people; the kind that Gary described (in the fast lane), or the "risk averse". The kind that thinks that an Xbox360 is the gateway to greatness, thus spending their lives on the sofa, with a Hotpocket in one hand, and a 1 liter bottle soda in the other.

If you're young, living aboard, and actually sailing, I applaud you. Do it. Don't be put off by the "RV" demographic in the marina.

Last year, I was living aboard and noticed the same thing. There were 2 other liveaboards near my age (40) in the marina. One took a job, and sailed his boat down to Norfolk, and the other snapped his leg in a freak accident and had to live with family while he healed.

I felt pretty alone. In fact, one of the other marina inhabitants commented that I "make the rest of them look bad" because I lived aboard, and actually _sailed_ most afternoons after work, and cruised for entire weekends.  Shocking I tells ya, just shocking.

Here's another news-flash for you:

Women will LOVE you. At first. You're young and wild, and passionate. _"You live on a boat? How exciting!"_ But then...that stupid "sailing" thing will get in the way. _"You need to grow up, settle down, get a real job. How long are you going to live in that tiny, stinky boat?"_

A wise, Kiwi friend recently explained it to me: Women adore passionate men, but they hate whatever it is that we're passionate about.

You might, just might, find someone who shares you passion, but it's equally possible that you'll be stuck alone, surrounded by people who just don't get it. People who think sailing is just a "casual hobby".

Don't let it deter you though. Sail, travel, and cherish a freedom that most in the U.S. don't have, and don't even realize exists. Once you give it up, it's nearly impossible to get it back.

Here's some younger folks doing it right, to inspire you:


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Wow! If you think 45 is pretty young, if you live to 90 you would be middle aged.  Don`t worry, though, if you Don`t grow by age 50 you Don`t have to. The only drawback is you can`t retire until 3 days after you're dead. That's why at 72 I`m still working. Gotta pay for my transgressions when I was young. 

Gary


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## Mr.Ritz (Jul 1, 2011)

hello I started to crew when I was 26 didn't get to go out as much as I'd like tho because the guy who owned the boat would only go out on perfect weather. Then I took 2 weekends of sailing classes on flying j s.

now I seem stuck..I might be able to afford a boat but he'll if I have money for a slip or repairs. I have been around boats enough to know where all the money goes bye bye.. 

tons of time and no money is my problem lol


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

I think Gary has it right. If you define age by a number you miss a lot. At 66 I am a hell of a lot younger than some of my 35-45 friends, but I am old based on a couple of 75 year old friends. I am comfortable, too bad you aren't!

Sailing is not a inexpensive sport. Lots of competing priorities when I was younger ( faster boats one of them) and now I am lucky enough to have both. Keeps me young and I like it. Tell me I am old and I will tell you to...well, never mind I got in trouble for that once.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Mr Ritz it might not cost as much as you think. 

The comment about women will love you. At first. I think that's sooo spot on. 

The best way I can describe more of the people I thought I would see would be European backpacking types. It's still very early I know. You read about about like lonely planet type backpackers doing adventures so I'm waiting to see them here yet. 

I don't drink so No marina bars which is a good thing and a bad or rainy nights like this. I'm goin to go to Seattle too so I'm see what types are there. I think the San Juan Islands(and Gulf) have an older demographic in the first place. I know port Townsend where I started is in the oldest county in Washington by a lot. But I'm sure that's not all there is. 

Since I was thinking about this subject today I picked up a magazine and it was the blue water special so it's main Artie was about a couples four year circumnavigation and I thought before I read it. Ten bucks they're retired and. They were.


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## Mr.Ritz (Jul 1, 2011)

all the young people I know that sail already have a ton of exp from doing it as a sport for years


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## theonecalledtom (Jan 2, 2008)

I always react to this kinda question with wtf I'm out there aren't I then stop and then remember that I used to scoff at old people my age who thought they were young.

The fact is my sailing life took a break between my late teens and my early thirties. I was starting a career and didn't realize during that period that there were many older folks who would have been happy to have me as crew for free. Just didn't occur to me.


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## Mr.Ritz (Jul 1, 2011)

northoceanbeach said:


> Mr Ritz it might not cost as much as you think.
> 
> The comment about women will love you. At first. I think that's sooo spot on.
> 
> ...


its cheap while you are living aboard not when its dock or something is broken. Things being broken I suppose depends on how badly I get screwed on that 1100 dollar Catalina huh lol


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

But how much does that 1100 dollar Catalina cost to fix? My brother had a mid year ford ranger. I think last year he spent 2500 fixing stuff. Maybe if you have to have a boat instead. 

You'll save on gas and that can go towards your boat. I just got boat gas for the first time this week and it took 2.4 gallons. I could use that in my car in a day no problem. 

I had a Catalina 22. I don't think much if anything broke. Just get it and sail it. You'll be surprised.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Based on my observations, every since the '70s, sailing has been a dying sport/activity. Many of us who own boats are older, and grew up during the heyday of sailing. Sailing does not have great appeal among most younger folks, for the reasons Bubblehead articulated. Given the demographics, we can expect a significant decrease in the sport/activity toward mid-century, when we die.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

We're missing the obvious. The median income is _waaay_ down in this country and the under 35 crowd has been hit by this disproportionally.

For my generation (I'm 48) you came out of college, bought a house and started a family. A few years later as your career progressed you could start to think about things like motorcycles and sailboats.

Close to 50% of college grads today move back in with their parents because their school loans are the equivalent of a mortgage. For those who don't go to college the days of getting into a union where you could earn a good wage and have benefits are pretty much over.

There are certainly nuances to this, but the underlying economics play a huge role.

Think about it this way. When I was in school we all worked in McDonalds or the mall to earn beer and gas money. Walk into a fast food joint today and it's not kids but adults in their 20's and 30's behind the counter. That tells you a lot. That 30 year old working at McD's certainly isn't thinking about buying a sailboat.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> Based on my observations, every since the '70s, sailing has been a dying sport/activity. Many of us who own boats are older, and grew up during the heyday of sailing. Sailing does not have great appeal among most younger folks, for the reasons Bubblehead articulated. Given the demographics, we can expect a significant decrease in the sport/activity toward mid-century, when we die.


Agreed... Hell, even among the demographic that can afford to purchase today's highest-quality production sailing yachts, the interest in sailing is declining, and morphing over to power boats...

Here's the latest sad sign of the times:

Sabre Yachts has ceased production of sailboats...



> At the current time, Sabre Yachts is not building any of it's sailing models.
> 
> *While demand for sailboats has remained weak throughout the market, and is still well below recession levels, the demand for our power boats has never been stronger. *
> 
> Photos of Sailing Yachts hand crafted in Maine USA | Sabre Yachts


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## blr972 (Mar 26, 2010)

Hey...I'm 25. My issue is the money. My wife and I would love to just pick up everything and go but we can't pay for it yet. I wouldn't consider myself the get everything fast type but my generation is definitely that way.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Northocean, you make some great observations.

Where are the young people? Where are the small boats?
I think the two questions are inter-related.

First, though, the pool of adventurers is smaller, with a different set of role models than the role models those sailors over 40 have/had. I think that if you haven't had an exposure to sailing during your teens, the odds that you will become a sailor in your 20s or 30s are significantly reduced... and sometimes that exposure can be as simple as a book or a movie.
Growing up in the 70s, we had bell bottoms, big hair and "Dove."

"Dove" showed a whole lot of us that it could be done- the blue water life was _*attainable*_. 
The 60s and early 70s were the golden age of sweat equity dream-fulfillment. Those who tuned in, turned on and dropped out often picked up a crapload of cheap ply or some chicken wire and cement and built themselves a boat to go sailing.

"Yeah!" said the average early 70s family.

When you look at how many old Piver trimarans and Samson ferro-cement ketches are still haunting marinas around the world 40 years on, it seems like every damn backyard, boatyard and junkyard on the planet must have had at least one half-completed hull during the early 70s.

During the 70s it seems like every family had a boat, or you knew somebody who had a boat- if you had a boat you sued it, and your kids invited their friends, and their friends parents weren't worried about their kids going sailing. Remember, this is back in the day when mom would throw you out of the house on a Saturday morning and tell you not to come home until the streetlights came on.

Oh, and we had video games- "pong". fun for five minutes, but not worth holing up in the rec room all summer to play. "Pong" or the marina where there are bikini-clad chicks? It was a no-brainer.
Later, in the 80s, anybody who was cool in television or film lived on a boat. The really cool lived on a sailboat.

So, those over the age of 40 have a pretty solid body of exposure to the sailing life, on a large, but possible, scale.

Flash back to the 70s, and most boats had anemic showers, cramped quarters, no tv, an icebox and a stove. Most people were okay with that, because, back in the 70s the average kitchen did not have a microwave, the average living room did not have a vcr, a BIG tv was 27", and people were cool with the idea of cruising being a way to get away from all of that technology, and getting away from the rat-race.

If your formative years were the 90s- by this time "Dove" was a quaint bit of history, largely forgotten, or largely dismissed as irrelevant and Sonny Crockett had sailed "St. Vitus Dance" into the sunset because...

Winning the rat-race was more important than getting away from it. Those who bucked the trend and stepped off the pace were viewed as suspect. Consumerism, bigger, faster, better, shinier, louder, NOW! was the order of the day, and we wanted to pack our lives with as much of the explosion of new technology as we could. TVs became bigger and flatter and the internet became faster and offered more porn and ebay and "Pong" wasn't even a memory in the world of "DOOM" a game you could, nay, had to play for hours to enjoy. NOBODY tuned in turned on and dropped out anymore because if you didn't get a degree you were gonna be left behind. You had to go to college, you had to go $100,000 into debt to get an entry level job that pays $30K a year. Every house had a microwave or two, more bathrooms, more convenience- almost every new car had power windows and locks and A/C and we had more connectivity... 
...and it scared the hell out of us.
With 24 hour news and the internet and riots in LA and more crime and new crimes with new names like "carjacking" the world now seemed a whole lot scarier, and people lost their sense of perspective- the anomaly became the accepted norm, and "coccooning" became a catch-phrase. People stopped adventuring- instead they made theri homes their nests, with central air and home theatres and reclining sofas and....
...and *attainable*boats still had simple stoves, no AC, weak showers, (if they had showers at all) and everything required actual grunt.

"Ew," said the average 90s family.

Big fear, big debt and an attachment to luxury- three strikes against going cruising if you were born after Kurt Cobain chewed on a shotgun.

It seems like every sport that involves some risk, effort and extended periods away from home are in decline- mountainclimbing, hanggliding, hiking.

So here we are today, and I'm seeing signs that the 70s might be coming back. The Sunderland kids and Jessica Watson and Laura Dekker are the "Dove" for a new generation. I hope so.


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

I'm guessing that 29 (me) and 27 (my wife) counts as young? Not cruising yet, but we do have a 26' boat (S2 7.9) on our local lake that is able to be trailered. We intend to take it to larger bodies of water (Kentucky Lake, the Great Lakes, etc.) in the near future for 4-8 day cruising adventures. Still learning (its the first boat that is 100% ours, and the biggest one we have experience with, and we just got it 3 months ago). The intention right now is to sail the H-E-Double Hockey Sticks out of this boat for a couple years, then, if we are still liking this sailing thing, sell everything, buy a bigger boat, and cast off for parts unknown.


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

bljones:

I was born in 1983, definitely a "child of the 90s" ...but...I grew up on a farm...had a 19" TV that was nearly never on...wasn't allowed to play "Doom" (Mom caught me playing Wolfenstien 3d once...made me delete it)...was thrown outside and told not to come inside until the fireflies came out..and my idea of a good time was when my cousins would come over and we'd build hay forts in the barn, shoot each other with "pea shooters" [hollow aluminum arrows that we would use as blow guns to shoot soybeans], and whack at each other with wooden swords playing "capture the flag." My parents' idea of a good vacation was either hiking in Glacier National Park, or (the lap of luxury for us) going to a guest ranch in Colorado. I'm guessing that my upbringing is very non-typical for my generation...


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## bamabratsche (Mar 28, 2011)

I think there are a lot of younger people doing things besides playing video games these days, but those things may not be sailing. Case in point, I spent nearly 2 years in my 20s backpacking around Europe, and I was far from the only person doing it. It wasn't exactly the most common thing to do, but there was never any shortage of other young people around doing the same thing and "living the dream".

Now that I'm in my early 30s, I find that I'm the youngest person in my marina by at least 15 years (not counting powerboats), and my 19-foot Typhoon is the smallest except for maybe one or two on trailers. When I tell people I actually sometimes overnight on it the reaction is pretty skeptical.

I do a lot of camping, and there is always sort of a cultural and age divide between the tent sections and RV sections of the campground, but the sailing world seems to be limited to the RV section. I'm not sure why that is. I do think it has to do with the perception that you have to have a lot of money--most people my age I talk to have this general idea that "a boat" must cost about $100,000, but when I explain that it can easily be done for less than a good used car, and that my monthly expenses are about what most people my age pay for a smartphone plan + cable TV, they start to understand. It is still a very foreign idea to most people though.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

Look at the guitar hero phenomenon. Kids who simply will not take an hour a day to learn guitar - which WILL get you laid- will spend hours daily on guitar hero- which will not. Why? God only knows. Not much makes sense to me- I mean not much about us ever has- but the last few years I've just completely disconnected, simply can not relate anymore. The overriding desire for comfort, which leads cruisers to pack everything you've heard of x2 (see cruising dads very amusing definition of cruiser/ packing list) alienates me, the overriding desire for safety confuses me- I view it as nothing more than avoidance behavior, as seen in a soft dog- you see it in retriever training, soft dogs will just fail to attempt certain scenarios- and struggle with concepts, cuz they might get nicked with the collar. And finally the constant craving for convenience- so now we have instant Starbucks coffee- cuz the 4 minutes wait on a French press could well prove fatal I suppose. Heinz ketchup in squeeze bottles... It's a metaphor for the decline of western civilization. Then you meet folks out cruising who look at your age and get resentful or scandalized- assuming you haven't "earned it" whatever that means...


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

c. breeze said:


> ...the 4 minutes wait on a French press could well prove fatal I suppose.


Hehe...then what about the 10 minute wait for the siphon pot that I use? I must be dead 1000x over!  :laugher


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

Rhys05 said:


> Hehe...then what about the 10 minute wait for the siphon pot that I use? I must be dead 1000x over!  :laugher


Someone call a doctor... This man is dying of patience.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

So many variables here. Let me add another I would venture to say there are still plenty of young people sailing, just not necessarily in the area you go to. maybe they are in small trailerable boats, hobie cats, lasers, 22 footers easy to maintain, Many are not interested in living aboard a boat as well.

Many of the young people, however like the rest of us they are raising families, have younger kids so a boat is really a luxury on the list of things you children "need" and come after things like clothes, food, and their activities. 

With many young Also so cruising and dropping of the regular grid is just not an option to them, their careers will take a hit. Maybe some have priorities than yours different like helping other people, contributing to society as doctors, nurses, teachers etc. and see that as a greater calling than just taking off into the great wilderness.

These same people when they reach their 50s/ 60s/70 still have the calling to travel and do what you are doing so they go cruising to parts unknown and that's who you are seeing. By that age you have more money and also can afford to put ammentities on your boat as well as get a larger boat.

Understand I am not passing judgment here just stating what I see. Most of the younger people are career oriented or family oriented and their priorities are definitely different. 

My wife and I are in our late 50s and looking forward to the day we retire and get to sail in the islands for 5 months a year and on the Chesapeake the other 7 months. me more than her However now we still cruise quite a bit...almost 3000 miles a year if you look in our logbooks. My wife as an example is still working...( my wife is a newborn nurse) and will have a hard time giving that up to go sailing full time as she feels she is helping and contributing to others well being. This may be a choice a lot of people make

Sailing off and cruising is very individual and in a way " me" self directed. Hard to do with children as you are more selfless with your time to them or when you feel you are contributing to society as a whole. Again no value judgment, but most younger people chose a different path than you that's all. In the end you have to balance and do what makes you happy.

Dave


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

chef2sail:

I think that you are spot on with most younger people being career and/or family oriented. "Cruising" can/could/likely will put a damper on that. I think the difference with my wife and I and our willingness to give that up is two-fold, one being our rural upbringing, and two being our current career situations: Me being an engineer for a faceless corporation and not feeling like I'm really making much of an impact, and her being in higher education ("academics") where she SHOULD feel like she is making an impact (and does...on the students) but has to deal with ridiculous politics and general inertia that drives her nuts. As far as "family oriented," I don't think that cruising has to sacrifice that, see "Windtraveler" or "Anasazi racing" blogs for good examples of that..


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

a few of the people I work with are "boaters" but I am the only sailor. They all talk about how big their engines are and how fast the boat can go and how quick they can make it to the wreck to get a few hours of fishing in.

good for them, at least they are getting out there.

But the moment the subject of sailing comes up, the topic invariably leads to how much they all hate it when a sailboat "leans" or heels. None of them can understand why we do not topple over, even when I explain about ballest. When I had my GP14, they were even more skeptical as that Dinghy only had meat ballest.

But, I digress, The big thing is, if those guys got out once every two weeks, everyone heard about it. I got out several times a week in my GP


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

bljones said:


> Big fear, big debt and an attachment to luxury- three strikes against going cruising if you were born after Kurt Cobain chewed on a shotgun.


Beautiful analysis bljones. Although I would put "big debt", and all the related financial realities as #1 by a long shot. The simple fact is that the middle class has been decimated over the last 30 years. We now spend hugely more on the basics of life than we did a generation or two ago. Saving are in negative territory, and people have fewer and fewer options simply to survive in our western societies. This is not due to a growing avarice, laziness or selfishness of "those kids today," but due the reality that two incomes can't even compete with the buying power of one a generation or two ago.

If you don't feel secure about keeping a roof over your head, being able to put food on the table, and saving a little for old age, then you're sure as heck not going to be buying boats, getting into hang gliding or treking off on some long mountain trail.

Cruising in a small boat has always been the domain of the relatively rich. How many from the so-called "third world," or even the "developing world," has there ever been in the fleets of long-term sailors and cruisers? Almost none. Why? B/c they don't have the security that our societies used to provide to the vast majority of us. Thanks to the victory of neo-liberal thinking -- a victory brought about by the baby-boom generation -- those days are quickly receding into history.

There will always be those who can buck the trends of their day, and strike out on their own. But it is hard to dream the big dream when you're running as hard as you can, just to keep you and your family safe and secure.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

northoceanbeach: Come to Seattle for a few days, with your boat. Do it whenever, you shouldn't turn around for it.

You'll find plenty of sailors your age (early 30s?) and younger. They are racing dinghies at Shilshole, having fun at Duck Dodge (a beer can/buoy race on Tuesday nights all summer), living aboard in smaller boats, and generally sailing quite a lot. On S dock (boats up to 30') at Shilshole I'd guess that the age demographics roughly match those in the rest of the city, I see people of all ages who keep their boats along mine. My dock neighbor is probably in his late 20s and is often sailing to local destinations every weekend.

I agree with that the costs keep a lot of people from owning boats (both younger and older). Moorage in Seattle for a <30' boat is still $250-$400/mo. The boats aren't expensive, but maintaining them and paying for moorage adds up quickly and you better use the boat to make it worthwhile. These issues are what kept me from getting into sailing until my late 30s (I'm 39), despite being interested in it from my first experience sailing in my teens. I sometimes wish I had pushed into it earlier, but financially I think I did the right thing by waiting. My wife and I don't have kids, which gives us a lot more financial freedom and time.

I'm also a bicycle tourist (a much less expensive way to travel) and even in that pursuit I found that many of the tourists that I met on the road were a lot older than myself. I'm very rare for my age in that I've worked for the same company since college and get a lot of vacation (5 weeks per year now, I started getting 4 weeks per year when I was 28). A lot of my friends can't afford to use even a week of their vacation every year for cruising or touring when they only get 2 or 3 weeks per year.

I really dislike all of the reverse age-ist remarks in this thread implying that people of my generation and younger are lazy. These sorts of remarks have always been made when older generations don't understand younger ones, and they are out of line. For every lazy 20-something today you could have found a similar lazy one in the 40s, 50s, or 60s. For every remarkable young person back then I think you'll find a remarkable one today. The economy is quite different and has shaped things differently, but there are still a lot of great people out there.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Our son bought his first boat for himself at 24 or 25, and is on his second. While they may be an exception these days, it does still happen. They were 'bargain boats' and far from pristine but he and his family (5 yr old daughter) are out there sailing (on their own boat and OPBs) They both work, live in an area where housing is prohibitively expensive and have made the priority call to rent rather than saddle themselves with a big mortgage, and manage to keep a boat in a high priced moorage market. Their circle of friends includes a half dozen youngish 30-somethings racing/cruising families with their own boats as well. 

But as mentioned before these groups are not out cruising during school season...

OTOH the marked shrinkage of racing fleets since the 70s also points to a declining overall interest across the continent. I wonder if European trends are similar???


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## AKscooter (Jan 18, 2009)

I read many years ago (10-20) That the future of economic success was to market to the "luxury crowd" Since not everyone can be there the market is not large. However to attract the "successful" one must exclude the less than successful. Hence rules to discriminate against. Eg. If you do not have money, go away. Increase your prices so that unless you have plenty of disposable income you cannot play. If you are not a clone of me, go away. Marinas are becoming a rip off. As was said earlier...they are more like an old folks in an RV park than sailors. They are definitely NOT interested in entertaining any ideas about bringing young blood into the fold. Pretty damn sad. Alas, as things are regressing, the luxury pool will grow smaller and smaller.....Expect it to get worse with more regulation, fees and of course once (sooner than most will admit) this population departs the earth, the business will close to find more profitable ways of making money. It has been this way since the age of man. Very little altruism and idealism in reality. Just some shiny stainless steel, polo shirts, with Sperry's and a Tom Collins in hand.


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## Mr.Ritz (Jul 1, 2011)

what do you guys say the cost for a big enough boat to coastal cruise and upkeep is per month is?


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

I was talking about long term storage plans for my boat with a neighbor- and right now we have the same priorities- cool crowd at the dock, convenience to the ocean, price, and protection- and have essentially decided we will move to the same marina as an insurance policy- knowing there will be someone else to hang out and sail with- or it'll already meet all the criteria- and be the place to be. 

It's nice living somewhere that is reasonable enough to get buy on a service industry or retail paycheck- and have plenty to play with...

That said- the dude I just bought my new boat from sold it because he didn't really ever use it- and having it and feeling like he "needed to use it" meant he wasn't using his hobie 16 like he could be...

Also- all that about bicycling and backpacking and the like is true. Lots of younger people are touring on land- which from a value standpoint makes a lot of sense from a "sights seen/new experiences per dollar spent" perspective. Viewed in the light of having 1-2 months to travel a year- sailing a dinghy, or a beach cat year round / season long- that can be stored for "free" is always ready to go, and is easily disposed of and replaced makes so much sense that I'm almost talking myself into it.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

Mr.Ritz said:


> what do you guys say the cost for a big enough boat to coastal cruise and upkeep is per month is?


Entry fee for turn key about 5000
Followed by about 500 a month, maybe a bit less- 450.

That's moorage, and budget for maintenance and upkeep- and planning on a mainly DIY approach

The variable is moorage in your area. I'm at 300 for a 27'


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

I'm 29 and my wife is 28, the biggest problem we have is getting enough time to go. 

I get a lot of vacation compared to most other folks I know, but even still, it's hard to take time off to go cruising beyond a certain distance. We even live in FL and are a short haul to the Bahamas, but if you consider the time it takes to get there plus having some time on either end to sit out wx, you are talking a week just in travel time. Do I really want to sail there just to stay for a day, then turn around and come home? That is a week of vacation right there. What happened to not having a schedule? 

You also have to consider that vacation is necessary throughout the year to not go crazy and visit family (they are mutually exclusive and require vacation for both). 

The unfortunate reality is that sailing is SLOW and getting to where you want to go while working a normal job is challenging. We can make it work, between my wife being a teacher and my having a really flexible schedule/environment and a lot of vacation, we'll be able to take 3 or 4 weeks and make a trip, but it's a short haul for us to goto interesting spots, folks further north won't have the same luxury, depending on where they want to go. We're fortunate in all those regards, but I know few people in that situation. 

It just doesn't work when you have a tight schedule, which most younger folks have. So short of quitting your job, without the ability to telecommute, how do you make it happen with a normal job?


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

I'll agree that there are fewer younger people sailing. I'm...lemme think...59, and I got my first sailboat, a 16 foot daysailer, when I was 21. Bought it used, and towed it behind my Ford Pinto to every nearby body of water, and had a blast.

NOT expensive. Young people are able to buy snowmobiles, sportbikes, speedboats, and jetskis, but I almost never see a daysailor or a catamaran being towed down the road. Used to be a common site. 

If you can afford a Jetski you can afford a sailboat. Laser, Sunfish, etc.. 

IMHO, it's more the result of a cultural shift than a reflection of economic hard times. I'll go along with those posters who cited "self direction". My stepkid's whole young lives were occupied with planned, supervised, activities. Soccer, band, band camp, baseball, and on and on. Left on their own, they were lost.

Contrasted with my childhood in the sixties in a rural area. The neighborhood kid attitude was, "hey, let's go.........get some guys together for some ball. hike the woods, go down to the river, etc..

Our family used to go trailer camping. The second we stopped at a new area, we kids said, "let's go explore...what's over here?". It's been documented that today's kids don't do that. 

So, yeah, cultural shift. And I don't want to mark myself as an old codger, but it's not a shift I like.


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## Mr.Ritz (Jul 1, 2011)

c. breeze said:


> Entry fee for turn key about 5000
> Followed by about 500 a month, maybe a bit less- 450.
> 
> That's moorage, and budget for maintenance and upkeep- and planning on a mainly DIY approach
> ...


5k is closer to what I was expecting then what some other people say


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

What do the others say?


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## gedaggett (Oct 21, 2008)

For what it is worth in the discussion: I am 36 years old and have three small children. I started sailing about 5 years ago and had my own boat (mac 2-22) until last fall. I am eagerly anticipating a bigger boat to cruise on. My two older children 4 and 8 love the water and would be on the boat as much as I would take them. I race in beer can races when I can but Cruising is where I would like to be. Now being 36 ad having the equivalent of 2 jobs a wife and Kids there are certain limitations financially and with time. The investment for me to be in a boat that I can cruise here in Chicago would be a $4000.00 per year minimum on top of my initial investment. I am just in a place in life (as are many of my fellow Gen Ex'ers) where affording the hobby of cruising just is not a reality at this time. As I get older and more established in my business and further into my Mortgage then it will likely open up for me. But for now I sail other peoples boats and jump on where and when I can. That for now is my sailing plight. Not that I don't want to it is that I can't


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

gedaggett said:


> The investment for me to be in a boat that I can cruise here in Chicago would be a $4000.00 per year minimum on top of my initial investment.


This is why we went for a "large" (26') trailerable boat that we can keep at our local small lake's sailing club on a slip for less than $800 per year rather than a larger boat up on Lake Michigan. We could have afforded a bigger boat (not ridiculously bigger..just bigger..) but the $4000 or so a year to store it plus the two hour drive to get to it soured us on that idea. We can always throw it on the trailer and tow it to destinations behind our F250 for long weekend to weeklong excursions! (not worth it to take it down for just a weekend though...sacrifices of having a "large" trailerable.)


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## gedaggett (Oct 21, 2008)

Rhys05 said:


> This is why we went for a "large" (26') trailerable boat that we can keep at our local small lake's sailing club on a slip for less than $800 per year rather than a larger boat up on Lake Michigan. We could have afforded a bigger boat (not ridiculously bigger..just bigger..) but the $4000 or so a year to store it plus the two hour drive to get to it soured us on that idea. We can always throw it on the trailer and tow it to destinations behind our F250 for long weekend to weeklong excursions! (not worth it to take it down for just a weekend though...sacrifices of having a "large" trailerable.)


That is exactly why my last boat was a MacGregor 2-22 on a trailer. $800 for summer and $400 for winter storage. And I sailed her on Lake Michigan exclusively.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Mr.Ritz said:


> what do you guys say the cost for a big enough boat to coastal cruise and upkeep is per month is?


In Seattle I think my Catalina 25 met about that definition.

Moorage was (and is) $175/mo. That is the cheapest that I've heard of inside Seattle. Haulout + maint (DIY) + consumables about $1500/year. Some years will be cheaper, but they'll be balanced out by ones that cost more. Initial boat investment about $8000 ($3-5000 for the boat, plus money to catch up on deferred maint and making it into the boat that you want). I think you can get the initial investment down lower by being a smarter buyer than I was and finding a $7000 boat that was recently overhauled.

So you need to save about $8000-$10,000 for the first year, and $3500 per year after that. The numbers are similar for almost everyone I know who owns a smaller boat around here.

Jumping to a ~30' boat and being on the sound (saving you 2-3 hours of lock transit time every time you cruise) means twice as much to moorage, at least twice as much in boat purchase cost and maintenance, with the benefit of more comfort.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Mr.Ritz said:


> 5k is closer to what I was expecting then what some other people say


I think that might be another reason why you don't see more sub-40s people sailing:
The perception of high cost.

Frequently I get asked, "What does it cost to sail?"
My answer has become, 
"As much as you have, or as little as you've got, if you REALLY want to sail. if what you really want is a "someday, maybe" dream, then it's more than you can afford. Sailors find a way around the obstacles- dreamers use the obstacles as excuses."

I see a lot of folks sailing the hell out of Siren 17s, Tanzer 22s, Oday Tempests, boats that can be had for less than the cost of a season of golf at a public course.

It really IS a very low cost sport, at the pocket-cruiser end of the spectrum, if you want it to be. I think the best deal in a small boat is a Siren 17- buy one for $2500 on a trailer, sail it for a couple of years, and you can still sell it, and sell it quickly, for $2500. Simple forgiving boats with accomodations for a cozy couple, room for a stove and a pumpout head, the Dock is usually home to 2 or 3 during the season, and the owners often weekend frequently.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

gedaggett said:


> The investment for me to be in a boat that I can cruise here in Chicago would be a $4000.00 per year minimum on top of my initial investment.


Sadly, I can believe that. The State Owned "Farley Marina" here in Atlantic City is run by the Golden Nugget Casino. Slip fees for the season, not the year, would run me about $3000 for my 23 foot sailboat.

I am going to be keeping my boat behind a friend's house. She has several slips she rents out at about $700 for the year. It just means I am a mile further from the inlet and do not have such niceties as cable, pumpout, and fuel in the same facility.

Maybe there is somebody in the area that rents out slips in Chicago? or even a nearby lakeside town?


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## CarpeAquam (Sep 19, 2011)

I've already posted my story, but recently another friend bought a sailboat and is sailing with me too. I'm 25 with a 1983 Starwind 22, he's 26 with a 60's era Snipe (racing dinghy), and i also sail with a 30 year old with a Hobie 16, and a 24 year old with a Laser, and we all take friends out with us... I'd say there are quite a few young people out there considering this is just within my small group of friends in the landlocked state of cornfields and nascar fans, haha!


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

mad_machine said:


> Sadly, I can believe that. The State Owned "Farley Marina" here in Atlantic City is run by the Golden Nugget Casino. Slip fees for the season, not the year, would run me about $3000 for my 23 foot sailboat.
> 
> I am going to be keeping my boat behind a friend's house. She has several slips she rents out at about $700 for the year. It just means I am a mile further from the inlet and do not have such niceties as cable, pumpout, and fuel in the same facility.
> 
> Maybe there is somebody in the area that rents out slips in Chicago? or even a nearby lakeside town?


I was looking at the Indiana side of the border from Chicago (since I live in Indiana), and even in Hammond and East Chicago (very industrial, "ghetto"-y areas), if you were looking to have a slip and couldn't put the boat on a trailer for storage elsewhere for the winter it was going to be ~$3000 for year round storage/a slip on the water, even for a smallish boat. Michigan City was even more... We won't be getting a bigger boat until we can LIVE on it...and preferably be "cruising" where we are anchored out 95% of the time rather than in a Marina.


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

CarpeAquam said:


> I've already posted my story, but recently another friend bought a sailboat and is sailing with me too. I'm 25 with a 1983 Starwind 22, he's 26 with a 60's era Snipe (racing dinghy), and i also sail with a 30 year old with a Hobie 16, and a 24 year old with a Laser, and we all take friends out with us... I'd say there are quite a few young people out there considering this is just within my small group of friends in the landlocked state of cornfields and nascar fans, haha!


Come up to Eagle Creek in Indianapolis and I'll take you out on our 7.9!


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## CarpeAquam (Sep 19, 2011)

bljones said:


> Frequently I get asked, "What does it cost to sail?"
> My answer has become,
> "As much as you have, or as little as you've got, if you REALLY want to sail. if what you really want is a "someday, maybe" dream, then it's more than you can afford. Sailors find a way around the obstacles- dreamers use the obstacles as excuses."


Very true! My boat isn't pretty and doesn't have the amenities of most, but it sails. Everything else goes on the "nice to have" list as far as I'm concerned!


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Siamese said:


> IMHO, it's more the result of a cultural shift than a reflection of economic hard times. I'll go along with those posters who cited "self direction". ... So, yeah, cultural shift. And I don't want to mark myself as an old codger, but it's not a shift I like.


I agree that there has been a "cultural shift" Siamese. Culture is always changing, but the root cause is economic insecurity. The fact, as borne out by piles of economic data, is that it was a hell of a lot easier for people to live a middle class life 30 years ago that it is today.

Yes, there's the argument of the coddled generation. Every "old codger" generation looks at "the kids today" and reminds them how much harder it was _back in my day_. And yes, there's some truth to it as well. But people haven't changed that much in the last 50,000 years. We all need the basics before we can move on to the luxuries. The simple fact is that for the vast majority of people in our societies, the basics have been getting hard to achieve.



gedaggett said:


> ...As I get older and more established in my business and further into my Mortgage then it will likely open up for me. But for now I sail other peoples boats and jump on where and when I can. That for now is my sailing plight. Not that I don't want to it is that I can't


Exactly my point gedaggett. The typical middle-class Western kid gets out of high school, has a brief foray of freedom (and even that is a luxury for the relatively richer families), and then races into university, which now costs way more than it used to, marriage and kids (another huge cost), car, house, healthcare (esspecially for Americans), career expenses, etc...

From the 1950s to the end of the 1970s we could do all this on one income, and still have enough to save a significant amount. IOW we had much more discretionary spending. Since the end of the 1970s incomes have flatlined, costs have gone up, and people no longer have the freedom to play.


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## gedaggett (Oct 21, 2008)

mad_machine said:


> Maybe there is somebody in the area that rents out slips in Chicago? or even a nearby lakeside town?


I had found the cheapest spot in trail creek marina in Michigan city Indiana. I would keep her on the trailer for the first half of the year and then move it to a slip after prices were cut in half around the first week of August. Best sailing is had in September and October and that is when I was on the slip. Nothing cheaper and I had to stay draft of 3 foot or less which was fine with the swing keel.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

I personally think a lot of this extends from the price of new boats. Many of them cost the same or more than a small home. And for that you get 40 feet by 12 feet of "space" not all of which is living space. If given the choice between a house and a boat, which do you think most people would buy?

It is also that the majority of people are -not- boat people. Even living and working along the atlantic ocean, the percentage of the population that actually owns a boat is rather low.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

mad_machine said:


> I personally think a lot of this extends from the price of new boats. Many of them cost the same or more than a small home. And for that you get 40 feet by 12 feet of "space" not all of which is living space. If given the choice between a house and a boat, which do you think most people would buy?


I don't think I know anyone, young or old, who buys new boats. Of the over 80 sailboats on my dock I think only one of them was made in the last two decades.

I don't even think that the sailboat manufacturers going out of business is completely a result of a shrinking sailboat audience (though that is some of it). It's just that there it's nearly impossible to figure out a financial reason to buy a new 30' cruiser/racer boat for over $100k when you can get a great 30 year old used example that needs little work for $15-$25k (or a nice example that will need a repower in the next 5 years and new sails now for much less).


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Yeah I don't know who buys new boats. 

It's also a problem because they made them so damn good that you can get a boat from forty years ago that still sails. You can't do that with a car. Barring classic cars that have been extensively restored cars just break at a certain point. Maybe the sailboat industry did themselves in when they invented fiberglass. 

I realize people put career and family first but don't some people not? Like the stereotypical surfer. Just squeaks by through life having a good time. I am looking for the sailing equivalent of that. 

Career can be a good and bad thing because on one hand it makes it possible to afford a boat. You just have I pick the right career. 


Children are the death of dreams to me. Once you have them especially more than one and especially in this day and age, you are now a slave to your kids and sailing and cruising is gone. 

I don't think it's a generational shift to tv and video games. People still do stuff it's just, ok it might be a gen shift. I was going to say people do more packaged entertainment. But people have been glued to the tv since it was invented. People say tv has gotten worse but fifty years ago it was absolute rubbish with such censorship that you got trite meaningless shows like leave it to beaver or Andy Griffith that people watched and said look how nice our lives are and then walked over and slept with the neighbors wife. They weren't better more moral people back then, they just were like a southern conservative. Scream loud enough how good and right you are and hopefully Boone will see the hideous things you do behind closed doors. 

Maybe except the seventies when things got a little more experimental but when was this golden age where everyone was an adventurer and sailing and doing great things? I see history of row houses and folks going to work with their lunch pail so they could afford two kids a house and a car.

I would think if anything people choosing to not have kids these days and having more freedom in society, that with the economy like you say, well if you just got out of college and there aren't the jobs they promised there would be why move in within mom but go get a boat in San Diego and see if Mexico really is as bad as they say?

It's not happening but I'm not sure why. I think sailing might be becoming a marine RV park. But before you think to hard on the next generation are these RV ers that much better? They seem to share no sense of the comeraderie with me I had expected. No one wants to talk about sailing or god forbid offers to help. It like I'm pulling up to the RV park blasting metal with an upside down cross tattooed to my forehead the way half the people look at me around here. Definitely Harold and Maude look out of their cockpit enclosure with leery eyes. Heaven forbid they got up off their ass and helped me hit the dock on a windy day. The other day the wind was going one way the current the other an I was being pillows at an angle from the slip before I could jump off. Four old couple in four boats sat there and stated. Nobody came and spent two seconds holding my bow. It's not good is all I'm saying. I'm less than impressed. I thought people would form a common bond because there aren't that many of us here now. But I think they are being too comfortable. 
I think a lot of them are sitting watching the same tv gen x is. They're just doing it from a boat v


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

northoceanbeach:

Huh, I get mostly the opposite of what you are saying where I am. Most of the old dudes at our sailing club are friendly and helpful. But then...inland lake...much smaller and less expensive boats...mostly blue collar and engineer members and not many high rollers may be biasing me away from the "hoity toity" image you are seeing.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

In Port Townsend people were a lot better. Honolulu too. The latter having many more dreamers coming to Hawaii and getting a sailboat


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

northoceanbeach said:


> ...
> Children are the death of dreams to me. O ce you have them especially more than one and especially in this day and age, you are now a slave to your kids and sailing and cruising is gone.
> 
> ...


I guess that's a rather blunt way of saying that you made a decision based on the lifestyle that you want to live.

We chose to not have children but I don't view children as a "death to dreams." It was just a different path I decided to take based on how I want to live. I was fortunate to find a partner who shares my feelings. We love our nieces and nephews and enjoy sailing and other activities with them. We just never felt ready for the full-time responsibility of raising children and then age took care of the decision more or less.

There are lots of cruisers and sailors with children. Not everyone has to make a choice between the two. I love seeing kids enjoying the sailing and cruising life and seeing how their world expands. It keeps me hopeful.


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## CarpeAquam (Sep 19, 2011)

northoceanbeach said:


> Children are the death of dreams to me.


And that's one less young sailor in the world!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

kids can kill your dreams ... or be a part of them. if the kids kill your dreams, then it WAS only a dream. If the kids become part of the dream it is no longer a dream- it is a lifestyle.

north, sorry to hear you're not getting a real friendly reception. I don't know whether you are in introvert or an extrovert, but sometimes people view their boat, and their slip as their home. Just as most folks don't rush out and greet the neighbours every time they pull into their driveway on the dirt, you have to make the first move. when you show up at a new marina.

I know you are a non-drinker, but someotimes it helps to keep a 6 pack or two on board. Climb out of the cockpit, onto the dock, wave to a likely looking neighbour with a couple of beers in your hands and say,
"Hi, I'm new, mind if I ask you a couple of questions about the area?" or
"That's a beautiful boat- what can you tell me about her?"
THAT question will start at least one evening's worth of conversation.

As far as docking, ...maybe nobody comes to help you, because you don't look like you need help?

Again sometimes it helps to be proactive. Yelling "a little help here??!!?" gives some folks the hint.

My experience has been different- I have never had trouble getting volunteer dockhands on a tough landing...sometimes too helpful.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Children certainly need not be the 'death of dreams'... only if you collectively choose to make it so.

Children are often more adaptable than their parents. My granddaughter has been boating since birth and it was funny to see her enter preschool and kindergarten and suddenly realize that not every kid went sailing once a week or so like she did.

I hate it when I hear someone say 'used to sail but had to quit 'cause we had kids'.. If it's not a purely financial decision I think it's more down to the parents' reluctance to adapt and do what's necessary to have children on board. It takes some planning and forethought...


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

CarpeAquam said:


> And that's one less young sailor in the world!


Main reason I would want to have a kid or two (and believe me, I sympathize with the "kids are the death of dreams" thing...thinking about having a kid scares the poop out of me..) is for this conversation between myself at ~60 and my ~25 year old kid:

Me: Hey, remember your first rounding of Cape Horn at when you were 5?

Him/Her: Yep! Holy cow that was a great trip, but I think that the storm off of Cape Leeuwin when I was 10 was the high light of our trips when I was a kid.

Me: Well, I'm thinking about sailing to New Zealand soon...feel like coming along?

Him/Her: Umm...duh...why WOULDN'T I!?

...or something like that!


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

It's still very very early or me to be making some if the broad generalizations I am. Alm comments should have a so far after them. 

So many things are going so well. But if its going right I don't write about it because I don't have any questions!

It's the age question that has been coming up so I thought I'd post my thoughts. Like I said. In kind of thinking some of why I'm saying has to do with where I am not only with sailing as a whole. These islands are very private property centered, you can even own the beach! So I think that mentality is prevalent in the sailors here as well.
I'm standing by the kids thing though.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Rhys05 said:


> Main reason I would want to have a kid or two (and believe me, I sympathize with the "kids are the death of dreams" thing...thinking about having a kid scares the poop out of me..) is for this conversation between myself at ~60 and my ~25 year old kid:
> 
> Me: Hey, remember your first rounding of Cape Horn at when you were 5?
> 
> ...


That how the idealistic thinking of kids goes. If you get the exact kid you want which is probably a reflection of yourself. I've thought like that too. But isn't it more likely to be the other way? Do you want a diaper bin on your boat? A baby screaming from somewhere, throwing food all around, crying all night after you've spent a tough day on the water? And the money. They're not free. A lot if people commented on this post that in this economy it's hard to afford a luxury like even a modest sailboat. I you were buying cribs and diapers you would have way less money for YOUR activities.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

northoceanbeach said:


> ...
> 
> No one wants to talk about sailing or god forbid offers to help. It like I'm pulling up to the RV park blasting metal with an upside down cross tattooed to my forehead the way half the people look at me around here. ...


Do you have the option to go to another marina? Maybe do some dockwalking and scope out a different atmosphere?

It sounds like you just chose the wrong place to land. Nothing says that you have to stay there forever, unless, of course, it's your only marina.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

northoceanbeach said:


> That how the idealistic thinking of kids goes. If you get the exact kid you want which is probably a reflection of yourself. I've thought like that too. But isn't it more likely to be the other way? ...


It's just as likely that it is not going to be the other way. But, we get that kids aren't for you. How about a happy post?  We like to hear about what's going right with your sailing, too.


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

northoceanbeach said:


> That how the idealistic thinking of kids goes. If you get the exact kid you want which is probably a reflection of yourself. I've thought like that too. But isn't it more likely to be the other way? Do you want a diaper bin on your boat? A baby screaming from somewhere, throwing food all around, crying all night after you've spent a tough day on the water? And the money. They're not free. A lot if people commented on this post that in this economy it's hard to afford a luxury like even a modest sailboat. I you were buying cribs and diapers you would have way less money for YOUR activities.


Oh believe me, I know. There IS a reason I don't have one yet...the 0-5 ages scare me too much...but at the same time...that is a finite stretch of time...and having an adult child or two down the line does sound attractive. Money? Well, I'm guessing that the Windtraveler couple don't spend nearly as much on their baby as most landbased people do on theirs buying all the latest gadgets and gewgaws. I made due with wooden swords and my imagination as a kid...I would expect any kid I may have to do the same!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

northoceanbeach said:


> That how the idealistic thinking of kids goes. If you get the exact kid you want which is probably a reflection of yourself. I've thought like that too. But isn't it more likely to be the other way? Do you want a diaper bin on your boat? A baby screaming from somewhere, throwing food all around, crying all night after you've spent a tough day on the water? And the money. They're not free. A lot if people commented on this post that in this economy it's hard to afford a luxury like even a modest sailboat. I you were buying cribs and diapers you would have way less money for YOUR activities.


You're single, aren't you? 

Hell, dude, if most of us are being honest, we didn't PLAN to have kids. One good bonus at work which leads to a celebratory dinner which leads to a bottle of really nice red wine in a friday night, and three weeks later somebody's peeing on a stick...
and then you deal with it.
and you make it work.

I know a fellow poster here on SN and his family- he, his wife, and 4 kids all packed onto an S2 8.0...and all of them having a great time, grinning like fools. They all enjoyed it so much they moved up to a 30+ foot C&C and they are all still grinning.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

northoceanbeach said:


> ..... These islands are very private property centered, you can even own the beach!


I believe you're in the Canadian gulf islands, are you not??? In no way can anyone own the beach. No private individual or corporation can 'own' anything below the high tide line. Even if there's a water lot lease in effect I don't believe you can be denied access to the 'beach'.

I'm sorry you're not having a good experience, but even more I'm surprised to hear you say so. Our experience (and I'd like to think our behaviour) is/would be very different.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

My most regular sailing buddy (the one who was halfway up the mast when you met me) has a 3 year old. This year he's doing a week trip in Panama (not on his boat obviously) and they'll be doing a couple of few night trips around the sound. I'm happy with my choice to not have children, but I've also seen enough children on boats to know that it can be done. It does change the financial and time off mix in a way that doesn't favor sailing though.

I love sailing with his child. When he was 2 he came up with the most creative words for nautical things (like "squishing water" for when we're going fast enough to leave a wake). I think he only knows the word "hamburger" as a big flat buoy that sea lions like to sit on. He doesn't always love sailing and is coming to terms with boat heel this year, but I still think I get more out of sailing by sometimes seeing it through the eyes of a 3 year old. I look forward to when he is a few years older and is ready to help out and be part of the sailing.


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

bljones said:


> You're single, aren't you?
> 
> Hell, dude, if most of us are being honest, we didn't PLAN to have kids. One good bonus at work which leads to a celebratory dinner which leads to a bottle of really nice red wine in a friday night, and three weeks later somebody's peeing on a stick...
> and then you deal with it.
> ...


Damn...they aren't LIVING ABOARD fulltime an S2 8.0 are they? One of those at my club, not much bigger than my 7.9...it would be hard to just have two people living on one of those full time...


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

No, but they were constant weekenders, and they got more cruising miles under their belts every season than most of the old salts, on bigger boats, that rarely leave the dock.


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

bljones said:


> No, but they were constant weekenders, and they got more cruising miles under their belts every season than most of the old salts, on bigger boats, that rarely leave the dock.


Cool, still pretty impressive though!


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

In having a good time. You'd have to meet me. My personality or mood really doesn't come across right over the forums. 

I also think that posting good things is like gloating. I don't know why I think that. So you're not ping to see alot of "what I did today" posts. Because do you really want to hear about me seeing orcas five feet away and the subset and how exciting when I hit my first waves and on and on? That's just bragging. So I use the forum to try to solve problems I'm having or figure something out I'm curious about. It doesn't mean I'm in a bad mood or unhappy. I thought I it more as analytical. I'm jot negative but also not everythingnis great, great all the time. 

Being out here, especially last night and this morning with fog and drizzle and no wind gives me time to think about alot and I'm new to this and forming my experiences and some things are different than expected. I expected every single person to be white and they are so I did t post about why only white people sail. I expected there to be periods or rain and no wind, I expected the currents to run like they do so well, you get it.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

northoceanbeach said:


> In having a good time. You'd have to meet me. My personality or mood really doesn't come across right over the forums.


I'm glad you really are enjoying the experience.



northoceanbeach said:


> ... I expected every single person to be white and they are so I did t post about why only white people sail. ...


Good! We beat that topic to death and back last year.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

northoceanbeach said:


> ... do you really want to hear about me seeing orcas five feet away and the suset and how exciting when I hit my first waves and on and on? .


Yep.
That ain't bragging. That is a ship's log.

Unless you really are talking about the "subset." I don't really want to hear about stats or math. Sunsets are good though.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Me to lazy today to read all the post but I wanted to comment...

I feel very fortunate that we are able to sail, especially with the boat we have. Considering all the other expenses we have, mortgage, child care, etc etc. For example, for the past 8 years we have spent on average around $20,000 per year just on child care (and to think I thought it would be less when they went to school? HA!) $160,000 would buy a real nice boat 

There are a lot of generalizations being made in this thread about the younger generations...I think its what you old farts do? I will probably will too someday, if not already :laugher Just the other day at the club it took all my will power not to jump into a conversation about this very topic. The generalizations were so over inflated I just had to start laughing. I chose not to engage them since I am the new kid on the block but it was entertaining to say the least.

I have discussed the lifestyle that Brian/Crusingdad embraces and lives a few times and its discussed often with my wife. I would do it now but she is not ready, I try not to hold that against her  I grew up around boats and the bay, its always been a part of my life and I want to share in those memories and experiences with my children. We are fortunate that they love sailing and all things related to the boat, abet some readjustment since we were 100% land lubbers for the past two years. They seem to be pretty much right back into the swing of things so to speak.

The news that Sabre is stopping production of sailboats is a statement and sad because they are truly works of art. My guess though is they have not diversified themselves enough and IIRCC they only produce two models? Unlike a similar brand, Tartan who is now producing 7 models ranging from a true day sailer called the Fantail in three different configurations to their flagship model, the 5300. Sabre hasn't released a newly designed model in how many years? So if you look at it from that perspective its really not that surprising to me.

Back on topic... 

How well does the sailing industry advertise itself? I would say not well at all. Add to that, its expensive operate with little income to support it, plus how many high schools and or colleges around the country could or have sailing programs...and ask them to stand up to the income sports like Football...no way. 

No doubt there are less young people sailing, or boating in general exception being a small runabout or jet ski. Too expensive!

I'm just rambling because I don't want to grade final exams!


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## ShoalFinder (May 18, 2012)

I tell people I sail and they look at me like I have two heads. It is just something that 99% of the population will never be exposed to. If that sounds wrong to you, then perhaps you live within a few miles of the coast which makes you different than 99% of the population. 

I grew up on the water. I've been in boats as long as I've had memories. But even growing up in southern Virginia, I didn't know anybody that sailed. I spent most of my time on lakes and on the James River, and that's not fit to sail any farther inland than Williamsburg / Jamestown. Even then ship/tug/barge traffic is likely to run you down in such a restrictive waterway. Let's just say you will spend a lot of time as the give-way vessel.

The one time I had been on a sailboat, I was 9 years old and I got a ride on a sunfish across the lake and back. That was also the last opportunity I had until I went out purposefully looking to take sailing lessons as an adult.

Why is sailing as a whole not mainstream? The truth is you can get a loan for a speedboat fairly easily. A decent, almost brand new powerboat can be had for the price of a car. You can't touch anything with sails on it that the bank will finance in that price range, and yes- most of the population finances. (stupid or not, that's how every ******* I knew had a truck and a bass boat).

A $15K sailboat is probably 30 years old. Almost nobody will be able to finance that. A $15K bass boat / ski boat / cabin cruiser is probably a few years old and can be had *today* by driving to any boat dealer in town. 

You have to WANT to sail. It's easy to start believing everyone sails if you spend a lot of time in marinas full of sailboats, but for every sailboat in a marina there are 5,000 bass boats parked in driveways.


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

ShoalFinder said:


> A $15K sailboat is probably 30 years old. Almost nobody will be able to finance that.


If you look hard, you can find someone that will. I know most big banks will not, but local credit unions will. In fact, I know that Space Coast Credit Union will regardless of age, minimum loan amount was $5k when I asked.

We didn't finance, but I considered it. I bought a cheaper boat that needed restoration instead of financing and view the upgrades as a form of financing that doesn't involve a bank.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

I don't get the question. We are younger.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

If we had not financed our boat we would have settled for a smaller, maybe unsafe, maybe uncomfortable sailboat or none at all...probably would have then paid cash for a newer or new stinkpot and would have been the subject of this conversation. 

Borrowing the money for a toy is certainly not the best financial decision, but the memories and experiences are worth every overpaid cent. I have no problem justifying it when my friends are on their way to soccer practice or game all day Saturday/Sunday while we enjoy a sunrise overlooking an anchorage watching the fog lift and the birds awake. Like there is even a question


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

ShoalFinder said:


> A $15K sailboat is probably 30 years old. Almost nobody will be able to finance that. A $15K bass boat / ski boat / cabin cruiser is probably a few years old and can be had *today* by driving to any boat dealer in town.


Actually, $15K will buy you a perfectly serviceable, decently equipped 25-26 Hunter from the mid 90s, still new enough to be financeable.

Hunter 26 boats for sale - www.yachtworld.com
big enough to summer aboard, and you can't say that about a bass boat.


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## Philzy3985 (Oct 20, 2012)

Younger people don't have "The [sailing] bug", because they are just too distracted by the ability to do many other, simpler things.

I'm in my 20's and I am living on my 3rd sailboat.

A $1000 13'er after high school, a $300 16' catamaran after college, and a $15000, 28 year old Catalina 30 I purchased when I was 26, I paid for it with cash that I worked and worked and worked and worked and worked for, having to lie to both of my jobs while being a full-time college student, that the other job needed me to work this or that holiday, so I could actually get a day off - Maybe 3 days off per year, total. I didn't own a boat for those 4 years because I knew I wouldn't be able to use it, but the dream was there and I rented a Catalina 14.2 on Labor Day in Newport Beach in 2009 - Sadly I can remember - anyways, It's been worth it. I say all that because "getting into sailing" on their own, without a clue, is daunting enough to give up doing unless they have a special motivation - which is rare for that generation to have in anything for long.

Even as a liveaboard I sail at least once a week on average. I only have weekends to do it, so I am out there.

Anyways, that should give me some credibility for the rest of this: 
I've only met 4 other people my age who own sailboats and use them. A lot of people want to try sailing but think there is way more to it than we all know there actually is. I can say that there's younger people, probably teenagers and 20-somethings participating in weekday races at the clubs, or take it as a college class if they're lucky, so that's nice to see.

My belief is that sailing is not as mainstream as it was in the 70s. It's been tapering off, clinging and relying on the same generation that was "young" in the 70s, and supported the manufacturing boom, and stuck with sailing until now and they are in their 60s or older finally able to enjoy it more days a week or retire and cruise and saturate the crowd of sailors.

The bottom line is that, agreeing with most of your opinions, the demographic age group of 18-30 year olds currently is taken up by so many other things. Whether it be pursuing careers professionally and paying of school debt, or sitting on dads couch playing video games and waiting for something 'get rich quick' thing to happen, there is basically access to any other interest they want, available at their fingertips, fantasy or reality.
Think about 1970, if you lived near water than you probably boated whenever you could, and you caught the bug and it stuck, you were young and it was mostly affordable and something to do because there just wasn't much else to do back then (compared to the availability of things now). Think about 2013, if you live near water you might instagram a photo of it when it's pretty, share it on facebook, while streaming a movie from your cell phone to your iTV on the flatscreen, while waiting for someone across the country to take their turn playing "words with friends". There is too much they can be doing, and not enough time or good reason to focus on just one, and it preoccupies their minds just fine.

We know sailing, as a whole, is an enormous commitment. You work to set aside money, to spend (along with your time) to tinker and fix and maintain something you are proud of so you can ultimately get those perfect days from it. People in their 40's+ learned to appreciate that - reward from hard work, before the world felt so small - but now that young demographic has it differently. If something isn't easily attainable, or popular, they probably won't waste their time for it. I know that the majority of people in this young demographic (like my friends) like the *idea* of sailing - the romantic sunset sails, warm breeze and clear calm water, quietly moving a sleek clean comfortable boat - as a break from their hectic multitasking lives, not as a hobby or lifestyle. My friends LOVE going out sailing, as a "day-cation" or because that "nautical look" is trending right now and they want to feel the part, but mostly so they can share it on social media and look like they have cooler lives than their friends.

If they can have that, for a day, for free (I make them supply food or beer) while I supply my boat (my main focus and passion) and I do the work from the experience I've gained sailing different craft, and it satisfies their temporary sailing bug, then why would they do more? They don't need to, and tomorrow there's going to be something else that sparks interest and they can go get fulfillment from that.

I hope that someone more my age who I bring out sailing or talks to me about sailing, gets the REAL sailing bug, the one that makes them put everything else on the back-burner and alternate your desktop background to sailing photo's and keep a watch on good weather windows, etc etc... However I know that to get this generations interest hooked on ANYTHING for life, is nearly impossible now... too much else they could do.

We obviously all think sailing the greatest thing ever, but it's not meant for everyone - The rest of the world is that everyone.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

^^^ damn, dude, you need to post more often.


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## Mr.Ritz (Jul 1, 2011)

This got me looking at boats again the Catalina 22s are pretty cheap. Just wish I could find a way to the live the lifestyle for a few weeks this summer. So I can gain the skills needed. Seen to many people just buy a boat and almost sink it the first day.

To me this is not something you just wing. Even tho I have experience mostly on flying js I still need way more before I decide to buy a bigger boat to coastal cruise


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Mr.Ritz said:


> To me this is not something you just wing.


Sure it is. As long as you wing it smart.

You've hit on the catch-22 of making the leap- I want more experience on a bigger boat before I buy a bigger boat, but i can't get experience on a bigger boat because I haven't bought a bigger boat, because i don't want to buy a bigger boat until I have experience on a bigger boat.
Almost sinking a boat on the first day is stupidity and ignorance, not inexperience.
However, the key word is "almost"

Every single one of us who have committed to this addiction have all almost sunk a boat at some point or thought we were going to sink it, or made others think we were going to sink it. The reality is that it is actually pretty hard to sink a keelboat.

So go start checking out those cheap Catalina 22s and give it a try this summer.

The worst that can happen is that you hate it and sell the boat in the fall.

The best that can happen is you love it and sell the boat in the fall because you have gone big, and you ain't never going home.


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## Mr.Ritz (Jul 1, 2011)

bljones said:


> Sure it is. As long as you wing it smart.
> 
> You've hit on the catch-22 of making the leap- I want more experience on a bigger boat before I buy a bigger boat, but i can't get experience on a bigger boat because I haven't bought a bigger boat, because i don't want to buy a bigger boat until I have experience on a bigger boat.
> Almost sinking a boat on the first day is stupidity and ignorance, not inexperience.
> ...


If I did just buy one I def looking for someone to come with me on my first trip


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

You'll have no shortage of volunteers here.


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## ShoalFinder (May 18, 2012)

Shinook, you are right. If you look hard enough it can be done. I don't want to finance either. My intended point was that a motorboat is usually a signature away. While young people may not be sailing, young people are out in droves on the water.


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## sailguy40 (Feb 6, 2010)

Well im 43 and started sailing three years ago. I think it is all simple, the hobby of sailing is just too expensive and time consuming for young people. In fact not just sailing but boating period. I don't see many young people that own boats. Sailboats and yachts, most owners around here (that I seen) seem to be in their 60's. On the other hand, I think many young singles (or even couples) overlook one thing...the possibility of living aboard. This is when it can not only become affordable but also a great way to bank some money. Not to mention owning a nice sailboat while your at it instead of paying high rent somewhere.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I think the best way to get more young people sailing is through local Boy and Girl Scout troops or some other sponsored programs like Venturing or Sea Scouts. It takes a lot of work but it is worth it. My church has been talking about starting a sailing program for teenagers and 'troubled young people' and I might get involved. If I was retired I would be doing it already. Giving back to society definitely makes a difference.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I don't buy the "too expensive" part of this argument no matter what the age. Who says that you must buy a boat to sail?

Both sail clubs that I belong to cost less than $40/year to be a member. Many members of one of the clubs don't own boats (or keep their boats at their winter homes) but crew on the other members' boats for both races and overnight trips. 

There is an interesting "virtual" club in Philadelphia (meets in Bala Cynwyd) where members get together and charter most weekends where some of those weekends are instructional trips where the purpose is to practice skills with experienced sailors (some of them certified captains or instructors). It's another inexpensive club to join. A few weeks a year they take longer cruises farther away (NE, Caribbean, etc.).

In New Castle, DE is a sailing club where you pay (more, but still much less than owning a boat) and when you prove your skills, can take out the club-owned sailboats. 

I started out in a sail club prior to buying my first boat. It was a great introduction to the lifestyle without plunking down lots of cash first.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Where is mr ritz located. 

I am in the crowd of almost sank my first boat first day. Plywood rudder backing plates, one fell off. Took on 90ish gallons of water. 

It rained this morning and now bam! Not a cloud in the sky. I'm on a reach doing about 3 mph in I don't even know. 5 mph wind? It's crazy how this boat really moves on the littlest wind. If it is enough to point the wane on the mast it's enough to sail. Picking up now. Just hit 4. So pretty today and its almost just me out here. The forecast called for a high of 63 but its probably 70. 

Clear north no clouds otherwise it looks like s e and w has some but about 20-30 miles away. Today must be one of those days where I'm in a sun belt that they like to talk about. 

Philzy should post more. What's it like living aboard in Redondo Beach?


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

DRFerron said:


> I don't buy the "too expensive" part of this argument no matter what the age. Who says that you must buy a boat to sail?


My first boat, a GP14, cost me $500.. and that was with the trailer. I sold it for what I bought it for. My current boat, a SeaSprite 23.. $2000, with the trailer. I need to do a little tidying up, but I could drop it in the water the day I get it down to AC if I wanted to


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## Philzy3985 (Oct 20, 2012)

Thanks. Living in Redondo Beach is great. All the benefits of Southern CA weather for sailing, while being a small harbor without much congestion unlike Marina Del Rey, Newport Beach, or Long Beach. I'd guess there's about 10 people living aboard, minus the larger vessels that have their own showers inside, so the marina facilities are plenty adequate for the liveaboards. Honestly I wouldn't change very much about it if I could. Most of the boat owners on the docks have been there for a long time, a decade or more, and are welcoming and smart boaters.


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## Mr.Ritz (Jul 1, 2011)

northoceanbeach said:


> Where is mr ritz located.
> 
> I am in the crowd of almost sank my first boat first day. Plywood rudder backing plates, one fell off. Took on 90ish gallons of water.
> 
> ...


I'm in FL.. You had a part pop off your boat bad luck.. Not like you hit something coming in or going under a bridge


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Right true. And I had an experienced sailor with me. I think a 22 would be good in Florida.


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## CarpeAquam (Sep 19, 2011)

DRFerron said:


> I don't buy the "too expensive" part of this argument no matter what the age. Who says that you must buy a boat to sail?


In my area, it is cheaper to buy a boat. The cheapest yacht club is $400/year with a $100 boat fee... the next closest one costs even more. And unless you go to a summer camp with a lake (as a kid), go to (expensive) sailing classes, or have a friend with a sailboat, you are likely not going to be introduced to sailing without going out of your way.

A lot of us found a way to make it work, but there are a lot of obstacles in the way of it becoming more mainstream.


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

northoceanbeach said:


> Where is mr ritz located.
> 
> I'm on a reach doing about 3 mph in I don't even know. 5 mph wind? It's crazy how this boat really moves on the littlest wind. If it is enough to point the wane on the mast it's enough to sail. Picking up now. Just hit 4.


Sounds about like my boat. Its nice to have a boat with big sails that can get you moving even in little puffs, but still stand up to bigger wind! Sounds like a great time!


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

The same conversation of where are all the young people is going on in the motorcycling forums , and ( I think) on the custom car forums.Its video games and the internet. 


I have three grown up sons, 21, 19 and 17 all of them will occasionally sail with me and love the water. Two of them live away. When they all come home and get together they play video games like its a sport. They talk about video games. They are interested in sailing but not to the extent I was at their age. They are interested in motorcycles but not to the extent I was at their age. Same with cars.

Its video games.


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

Sal Paradise said:


> Its video games.


No, its the RADIO...wait...TV! No...arcades! Hang on a minute...its Nintendo! Wait, no, its XBOX!

Seriously though, I don't disagree...even guys older than me here at work (early thirties) talk waaay too much about video games. I rarely, if ever, play video games...so I feel old, even though I'm younger than them...


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## CarpeAquam (Sep 19, 2011)

Rhys05 said:


> No, its the RADIO...wait...TV! No...arcades! Hang on a minute...its Nintendo! Wait, no, its XBOX!


It's nice to know I'm not the ONLY in the 20-something age that doesn't play video games AT ALL.

But to be fair, every generation has their time-killing vices. My father (and most of his generation) watches 4-5 hours of TV every day. I'll admit that I stare at a computer screen for about 9 hours per day... but they pay me for 8 of those!


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

I might play a few in the winter evenings when there isn't a whole lot else to do...but if there is another option, I'll generally take it.


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## flo617 (Mar 3, 2010)

Where have all the young men gone?
Gone for soldiers everyone... when will they ever learn?


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## flo617 (Mar 3, 2010)

Young people who are in shape are busy sailing their planing dinghies and enjoying the water splashing over their wetsuits as they surf over the waves... unlike me who is busy getting my mule ready for the summer (I'm 33 by the way)


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

flo617 said:


> Young people who are in shape are busy sailing their planing dinghies and enjoying the water splashing over their wetsuits as they surf over the waves... unlike me who is busy getting my mule ready for the summer (I'm 33 by the way)


Yeah, for me, I could afford either an older (31 year old to be exact) 26' racer/cruiser keelboat OR something like a foiling Moth, not both. The keelboat won out handily since it can be used for a whole lot more than racing and daysailing..plus if my wife comes along with me on the activity, I get to do it a whole lot more often! Those fast dinghys do look like fun though...


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

CarpeAquam said:


> In my area, it is cheaper to buy a boat. The cheapest yacht club is $400/year with a $100 boat fee... the next closest one costs even more. And unless you go to a summer camp with a lake (as a kid), go to (expensive) sailing classes, or have a friend with a sailboat, you are likely not going to be introduced to sailing without going out of your way.
> 
> A lot of us found a way to make it work, but there are a lot of obstacles in the way of it becoming more mainstream.


For cryin' out loud, I scored a Hobie 16 for $100 with a trailer and a complete set of functional sails!

I agree that income has not kept pace with living costs, but come on, how cheap does it have to be, before people stop throwing the "poverty card"??


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Every marina in the nation, at least the larger ones, have a load of derelict boats, many of which are in good condition and just need some elbow grease to get them sailing again. All it takes is a little legwork to find them - they're out there and many can be had for little or no money at all.

Good Luck,

Gary


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

travlineasy said:


> Every marina in the nation, at least the larger ones, have a load of derelict boats, many of which are in good condition and just need some elbow grease to get them sailing again. All it takes is a little legwork to find them - they're out there and many can be had for little or no money at all.
> 
> Good Luck,
> 
> Gary


So...what you are saying is that when we decide we want a bigger boat to go cruise on, we should put out an all points alert on Sailnet to be on the lookout for a 35-42 foot cruising boat that can be had for cheap and restored with only elbow grease??


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## ShoalFinder (May 18, 2012)

^ well, it does happen all the time around here. It happened twice in my tiny marina in the last two months- and my problem was I wasn't standing there with cash when the seller made it known he wanted to sell.

Now, having said that, there are tons of derelict boats that could probably be had for the asking, but I do mean 'derelicts' and I am not looking for a life-consuming project boat. There's a difference between elbow grease and "damned near starting from scratch" with a boat. All deals are not good deals. But Travelin Easy's point is valid. Another person's threshold for "elbow grease" may be vastly different from mine. If I was retired and basically wanted a hull and mast to make a project out of, I could probably turn down one free boat after another until I found the one I wanted to start rebuilding.


But the two that just sold for peanuts were great boats that I had no idea the owners wanted to sell. I'm talking about boats you can throw the lines off of and go sail it right now. A 30-footer went for about $3k and the first person it was offered to bought it. Never was a For Sale sign even placed on the boat.

Word of mouth is king. I have learned my lesson. Now I just make sure to let people know I'm looking for just such a deal and to call me if they hear something.


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

I'm 40 and started sailing 5 years ago. Do I count as young?

I'd say that sailing isn't a mainstream activity. Young people do a lot of things now that used to be marginal activities - rock climbing, white-water kayaking, windsurfing, technical cycling, triathlons, long-distance running, yoga, just to name a few. I know more people my age who have jumped out of a plane in a parachute (for fun) than know how to sail. When I mention that I sail, the reaction is typically one of astonishment. And I live right next door to the Chesapeake, some of the best sailing in the country.

For myself, I had no idea I would like sailing. I went out for my first sail at 32 on someone else's boat and wasn't expecting to enjoy myself nearly as much as I did. I took a course three years later and have been haunting Yachtworld ever since.

So I don't think it's video games, or a generational attitude, or even the cost (I know someone who just spent $15,000 on a bicycle). It's just that most folks our age with time and money are doing other things.


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## Bradhamlet (Nov 8, 2002)

I'm 42 and had a young Coast Guard maybe 20-22 ask me while they were doing a safety inspection ask me what I do out there? What do you do out on the ocean when sailing? I was a little struck by the question, humm I sail. The whole CG crew all under 30 just looked at me with this deer in the headlights look like why? I couldn't get over it myself for the rest of the day. And when I do take friends out for day sails they like it but very few ask to go out again.(that just might be me) We are different. Sailing is different. I don't know why the CG crew had a hard time understanding it, they are ocean people right? Any way,I don't know why there are so few young people out there but the people who I run into are some of the most interesting people I know.

Brad 
Lancer 36


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I think alot of them do it for military benefits without having to worry about combat.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Rhys05 said:


> So...what you are saying is that when we decide we want a bigger boat to go cruise on, we should put out an all points alert on Sailnet to be on the lookout for a 35-42 foot cruising boat that can be had for cheap and restored with only elbow grease??


How many of them do you want, and how hard are you willing to work? Until this spring there were at least 4 30 to 32 footers at my marina, and the marina is fairly small. Those boats sat there for a decade and now they've been cut up and in a landfill. One had a huge wasp nest in the cabin, and some of the others had cabins filled with nearly new sails and gear. All of that stuff went on Ebay and Craig's List last winter, and the boats were stripped of all hardware, then cut up with chain saws and placed in dump trucks. The cost to the marina to get rid of them was more than $1,000 each.

If you get to this part of the world, check with the Chesapeake Bay Foundation's Living Classrooms division in Baltimore. A couple years ago they had a dozen boats they were selling for $2,000 to $3,500, some of which were in excellent condition.

Gary


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

travlineasy said:


> How many of them do you want, and how hard are you willing to work? Until this spring there were at least 4 30 to 32 footers at my marina, and the marina is fairly small. Those boats sat there for a decade and now they've been cut up and in a landfill. One had a huge wasp nest in the cabin, and some of the others had cabins filled with nearly new sails and gear. All of that stuff went on Ebay and Craig's List last winter, and the boats were stripped of all hardware, then cut up with chain saws and placed in dump trucks. The cost to the marina to get rid of them was more than $1,000 each.
> 
> If you get to this part of the world, check with the Chesapeake Bay Foundation's Living Classrooms division in Baltimore. A couple years ago they had a dozen boats they were selling for $2,000 to $3,500, some of which were in excellent condition.
> 
> Gary


I will certainly keep that in mind, that said, it is likely that when the time comes we will be looking for a good deal on something a bit more "turn-key" cruising ready (with the realization that NO boat is truly "turn key"). Partially because I would rather pay 50 cents on the dollar for someone else's work and for equipment than have to totally refit a $3000 boat with $50,000 worth of equipment! That, and I would rather get "out there" sooner once the time comes than be sitting on shore rebuilding a boat.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Bradhamlet said:


> I'm 42 and had a young Coast Guard maybe 20-22 ask me while they were doing a safety inspection ask me what I do out there? What do you do out on the ocean when sailing? I was a little struck by the question, humm I sail. The whole CG crew all under 30 just looked at me with this deer in the headlights look like why? I couldn't get over it myself for the rest of the day. And when I do take friends out for day sails they like it but very few ask to go out again.(that just might be me) We are different. Sailing is different. I don't know why the CG crew had a hard time understanding it, they are ocean people right? Any way,I don't know why there are so few young people out there but the people who I run into are some of the most interesting people I know.
> 
> Brad
> Lancer 36


+1. Interesting post Brad. It is difficult to explain what we get out of sailing that makes the expense, time and effort worth it. What do you do when you are out there sailing??? That's amazing.....we are different, for sure. All week I work in an office, with politics, aggravation, deadlines, ... I sit in traffic jams, curse the world. Then - on the boat those things seem unimportant and its almost like I become Sal Paradise again, I come back to being myself when I sail.

Sal Paradise


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Rhys05 said:


> So...what you are saying is that when we decide we want a bigger boat to go cruise on, we should put out an all points alert on Sailnet to be on the lookout for a 35-42 foot cruising boat that can be had for cheap and restored with only elbow grease??


Well, I just hope you're not too wedded to the notion that you definitely need something over 35' to "go cruising on"... Nice to have, perhaps, but such size is certainly not a requirement to really go places...

Lots of folks out there doing just fine on boats considerably smaller, or older... Here's but one example, Thies Matzen and Kiki Erickson on the legendary WANDERER III...

http://www.cruisingworld.com/people/passage-notes/to-wanderer-iii-a-toast


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

JimMcGee said:


> We're missing the obvious. The median income is _waaay_ down in this country and the under 35 crowd has been hit by this disproportionally.
> 
> For my generation (I'm 48) you came out of college, bought a house and started a family. A few years later as your career progressed you could start to think about things like motorcycles and sailboats.
> 
> ...


Yep. Thats the way i see it too. Employment was how i made a living before i became a high-paid sailnet moderator!! It is a disaster out there for a lot of the new generation. Wont get too political, but i dont see it really getting better either. In fact, i think it will get a lot worse eventually.

That being said, many young people have kids and very demanding jobs. They dont get a lot of time off and what they get may be better invested in soccer games and school plays and fixing junk around the house. Many of todays mom and dads both have to work to make ends meet and often put in 60 plus hours a week.

How do you fit sailing into that? Answer is you dont or you are someone that is very committed to it (both of you).

Sad really.

I am the guy that committed to it. First fixed keel in my mid 20s. Moved aboard at 29. Had my son on board at 5 days old. Thirteen years later and I am now typing this from the keys - on my boat, enjoying life. But i had to commit to it. Most people wont do that and theres nothing wrong with that. Too bad though because its a great life


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I just hope you're not too wedded to the notion that you definitely need something over 35' to "go cruising on"... Nice to have, perhaps, but such size is certainly not a requirement to really go places...
> 
> Lots of folks out there doing just fine on boats considerably smaller, or older... Here's but one example, Thies Matzen and Kiki Erickson on the legendary WANDERER III...
> 
> http://www.cruisingworld.com/people/passage-notes/to-wanderer-iii-a-toast


Great story! Yeah, I realize that we don't have to have a 35+ foot boat to "get out there and do it," and if the right ~32 footer came along, I would certainly consider it, but I would prefer something in the 37-39 [35 and 42 being the extreme ends of the range I would prefer] foot range both for living comfort and sailing speed.

I have a feeling that (from my perusing of YachtWorld and Sailboatlistings) that when the time comes we'll end up with a Tartan 37 or similar based on the price/performance/size/aesthetics ratios. I like the looks of that boat and she is highly rated for the things that we would like to do.


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## Chartreuse (Apr 13, 2012)

Lots of great stuff here... I agree with many that younger people do want things on the faster side; food, internet etc.-And I would say patience is not a virtue among my younger friends. But I think the monetary cost and work and learning associated with sailing plays a bigger role. Among the youth I have encountered, Sailing is this romantic idea resolved to the wealthy. This is true if the idea of a 30 footer as an entry level or smaller vessel prevails, as the costs of well suited 30 footers DOES make entering sailing a costly endeavor. If I had a 35 or 40 foot boat for free, the cost to run the thing would probably exceed affordability for me.
I also find that some of my younger friends are near obsessed with popular culture. Sailing just doesnt seem to be a part of that, rendering the sport useless to them. "Im on a boat!" novelty wears off quick- then on the next.
If you want to sail now you will find a way. Im 30 now, had a sunfish for about 4 years then got an old 26' sloop. (26 feet seemed awfully big for an 'entry level' keelboat!)I knew it would need work-repairs, maintenance, and that moorings, equipment, hauling and paint all cost money, but you dont have to do everything at once. The work is the tradeoff for keeping entrance and ongoing costs low. I dont need it if I cant afford it (for the most part... I do need a gunboat)
That said, there is a big investment beyond money in sailing. The learning seems (and most likely is) endless. If you want in cheap, you must invest time to work on things, and to learn...And to mess up things and to fix those things that you have messed up. But the research is ever important-for the frugal minded can't just walk into west marine and buy. Learn what you need, then learn how to get it or make it, whichever is cheaper (or safer).

Anyway, I have met a couple younger sailors (none in Mt Sinai!(yet)), but I relish the opportunity to talk to any older, friendly sailor. I almost always learn something because they have been through a lot of the things a younger sailor will encounter. I plan to meet many more this season in my home port as Ive given up my apartment and plan to live on my boat for most of the summer. Now, im off to learn about, construct, break and rebuild mounts for my solar panels!


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## KBob (Mar 14, 2011)

Hi there sailnet!
I guess I'm one of the younger sailors, though not a cruiser. I'm 35 and have had an 40 year old Albin Vega (27') for 4 years now. 

Me and my wife hadn't really sailed at all before I decided to get the boat, but the madness had grown for a while, until late one march evening I informed her I had bought a boat. 
Since then we've both taken basic sailing courses and done 2-3 week cruises every summer, and quite a bit of weekend sailing. We both work, and like to spend as much of our nice 4 week summer vacations on the boat with our two cats, sailing up and down (or left and right) the Finnish Gulf -coast.

I would like to take a longer period off and go sailing around europe, but it is kinda hard to achieve, since we have a mortgage etc. Maybe it is a need for security, but when I suggested to the wife that we sell the apartment and go bouncing around for 5 years, I got voted down.

As to the comforts thing. Our boat has no shower, but we do have her equipped with a diesel heater to keep the boat warm and dry if it rains for 3 weeks straight (it certainly seemed like, last summer), a solar panel to keep our phones and other toys charged etc. 
The boat is just right for two people (and two felines) to line in for a few weeks.

Well, enough rambling.

Mikko
S/Y Ikiturso
Albin Vega 1005


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Chartreuse said:


> ...
> 
> Anyway, I have met a couple younger sailors (none in Mt Sinai!(yet)), but I relish the opportunity to talk to any older, friendly sailor. I almost always learn something because they have been through a lot of the things a younger sailor will encounter. ...


"Older" does not always mean "more experienced." There are plenty of older sailors who are just as new to sailing and I've met many younger sailors who have way more experience than me. (I consider myself in that vague region between "old" and "young.")


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Donna, don't worry about the age category - if you don't grow up by the time you reach 55 you don't have to! I should know. 

Gary


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## rivorsaylor (Feb 23, 2013)

I'm 38. Does that put me in the young or old category? I feel young and love to sail. I live in Missouri and never gave sailing a second thought until I was 28. A friend who moved to Portland, OR had just bought a 27' Catalina and was living aboard on the Columbia River. I had to go out for a visit, I stayed for a week and just fell in love with sailing. I got home from that trip and bought my first sailboat, a Hunter 19 and started trailering her to most of the lakes in the state and the Mississippi River. I now own a 25' Catalina and sail on the Mississippi River out of Portage des Sioux. This year I'm in a new marina and I think I am the youngest one there, but all the other sailors I have met so far are really friendly folks who seem to share the same passion as me. I sail with many younger people and really enjoy trying to get new folks on the boat whenever I can. I only know one friend of a friend, in his twenties, who own a sailboat. I would guess that cost, or perceived cost is the number one road block to many younger folks. It's just a matter of priorities, and for me, once I got bit, it literally changed my life. For the better. Now, I have figured out a way to take the summer/fall off of work so I can sail more. The season is just starting around here, flood waters going down and my boat, Peanut, is all ready. Life is good.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Something else I have noticed from my co-workers. Only one is interested in going sailing. The rest think sailing is "too much work"


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## CarpeAquam (Sep 19, 2011)

mad_machine said:


> Something else I have noticed from my co-workers. Only one is interested in going sailing. The rest think sailing is "too much work"


I get the same thing when I take some of my water skiing friends out. Of all the people in the world, I would think they would get it. What's so strange about spending all of your time and money so that you can exhaust yourself making a boat go in circles to ultimately get you back to the same place you started!?

On second thought... Why do we do this to ourselves?


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## Sailnteacher77 (Apr 23, 2013)

Hey guys!

I am a high school teacher (35) I started living aboard and cruising on a Hunter 34 when I was 23 years old. I did it for 3 years but the storms and cost drove me back to land. I have owned a few sailboats since - most recently a 37 legend and as of next week (hopefully) a Morgan 43. 

My wife and I live in New York City and do all of our sailing over the summer, but we never see the city during that summer. (She works for Delta and is able to take time off when I am off). I sacrifice many things for this lifestyle - putting off having children, taking administrator positions for more money and more security, time with family and friends. I can only afford to do all work myself, so even when not cruising I am hard at work and spending money! 

The only other younger cruisers I come accross are guys and gals straight out of college but with no clue what they want to do with their lives. They grab a 27-30 ft sailboat from the 70's and just go.. stopping to bartend or sell cars along the way when they run out of money. 

But, that being said - I enjoy having close friends spanning 40 years in age.. keeps things interesting and makes for some great cruises! 

Over all for people who are younger.. it is a road less travelled, alternative lifestyle.. I wouldn't go back and change a thing over the past 10 years, and I will keep sailing!!


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Sailnteacher77 said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> I am a high school teacher (35) I started living aboard and cruising on a Hunter 34 when I was 23 years old. I did it for 3 years but the storms and cost drove me back to land. I have owned a few sailboats since - most recently a 37 legend and as of next week (hopefully) a Morgan 43.
> 
> ...


Yea, the floating lifestyle is usually how us young college grads start out.
After recently watching a documentary about the rwanadan genocide and getting really fed up with the non stop scandals and degregation of America I have decided to pursue a career in volunteer work, such as Red Cross or Unicef. To tell you the truth I have a small mind to just show up.
Dont tell me if I made it to Jordan and volunteered at a refugee camp I would not find work. If I made that trip I would find work, meaningul work. I care not about money, but people (even with my lack of liability! crazy I know, but seriously I really do care. Makes me cry sometimes all the hurt out there. Im a grown man, I cry for there suffering. 
So I decided thats what I will dedicate myself to. Being a sailor and volunteer. What could be abetter life?


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Once I make it to New Smryna and get situated that is what I will dedicate myself to. Keep you posted.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

There are animals suffering too and they didn't ask for it. You can volunteer their too. Africa is hopeless.


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## CarpeAquam (Sep 19, 2011)

Some would say the same about Earth... might as well try to make it better.


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## Sailnteacher77 (Apr 23, 2013)

Harborless said:


> Once I make it to New Smryna and get situated that is what I will dedicate myself to. Keep you posted.


I hope so, man!

Ignore that last comment.... Some people don't see the value in human life. It is a long and lonely life to live that way.

Happy sailing!


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> There are animals suffering too and they didn't ask for it. You can volunteer their too. Africa is hopeless.


Its only hopeless when you give up hope sir. People always deserve a chance to live, and not die.


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## CarpeAquam (Sep 19, 2011)

... and to sail.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Sure they do. And there are people in America, in Florida, that are homeless. And in England, and Australia, and Canada. Which is where alot of people on this boat are from. Why not help them? Everybody always wants I help Africa but Im just saying its such a corrupt, hopeless lot I don't think anything we do will make a difference. People have to want to help themselves.


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## Travelnik (May 24, 2013)

northoceanbeach said:


> The best way I can describe more of the people I thought I would see would be European backpacking types. It's still very early I know. You read about about like lonely planet type backpackers doing adventures so I'm waiting to see them here yet.


My son is 25, and my daughter is 19. Neither one of them are into any kind of adventuring. 

I thought that maybe adventuring was a hereditary thing, starting from when my great grandparents, on my mother's side, escaped the Bolshevik revolution.
On my father's side was bootlegging.
Grandfathers on both sides in WW2.
Both parents into racing and motorcycles. (My mom was a stock car racer in the late 50's.)

I was always exploring and adventuring, riding dirt bikes as a kid, drag racing, etc. I even spent a short time as a mercenary teaching hand-to-hand fighting. I didn't get to fulfill my greatest dream of sailing though. 

I tried to encourage my kids to have bold adventures, but they're both into music. My son can play almost any instrument by ear, and my daughter is learning.
They're more on the creative side, and I'm proud of them both even if they don't follow the family tradition of adventure! 

Anyway, the point I was getting to is that they both have friends that are into the backpacking around the world thing. Doing RTW is trendy right now, but if you look at most of the young people doing it, they're trying to make a fast trip just to have the RTW bragging rights.

It's faster to hostel-hop around the world than sail.

They go from hostel to hostel, and everything is mapped out on their iPhone or iPad. They don't need to interact with the locals to even ask directions!
They take pictures to post on their FB page or blog, and talk about meeting other RTW travelers from other countries. American fast food is everywhere they go, so they never even get to experience food from other cultures. 

Cost is a big factor too.
Backpack vs. Boat
Youth Hostels vs. Marinas
Hiking Boots vs. Sails

You can see where that's headed.

I realize that not every young person is like that, but it is the current fad for many.

Some of them do it between high school and college; others after college, but both groups feel the pressure to get it done and get back so that they can become part of the "real world." Get the degree, the job, the house, the debt, etc.

There aren't many sailors around where I live either. This is bass boat country, and some of these guys around here have twin 300hp engines on the transom of an 18' bass boat!  These guys are usually in the over 65 crowd too, so "fast" isn't just limited to youth!

I'm glad that there are some young people like you out there that are wanting to have some great sailing adventures, but sailing never has been a main-stream activity, and the marketing in the boat magazines doesn't help. Sure, they show the topless, or nearly nude 20 something super-model on deck, or on the pristine sands, but get out in the real world, and most of the nude women sailing are going to be in their 60's! :laugher

Just get out there and have fun northoceanbeach, no matter what age group you find to make friends with.


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

Travelnik said:


> They go from hostel to hostel, and everything is mapped out on their iPhone or iPad. They don't need to interact with the locals to even ask directions!


The world has changed a lot in the past 10-15 years and even more so in the era since my grandparents, or even parents, were travelling. While the use of technology may seem like it takes the fun out of exploring, it adds a measure of safety and reliability you otherwise wouldn't have. In eras past, that may not have been a big concern, but today many parts of the world are increasingly dangerous and roaming around acting like you don't know what you are doing is a recipe for disaster. It also can allow a more thorough experience and opens doors for people to participate that may not have been able otherwise.

The new technology we have today has changed things a lot, but it's a two sided coin. In some ways, things are better and in others not so much. We just need to accept that the way things are now is how they are going to be, it is the new norm. If exploring is your thing, I'd be grateful if my kids choose to go the route you describe above even with the changes. Looking back I don't know that many of my classmates really even cared about exploring foreign countries even with the technology.


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## SunnnyD (Jul 3, 2013)

Wanted to throw in my two cents on this one. My wife and I are in our late 30's and we recently took an ASA class in San Diego and purchased an older and inexpensive trailerable sailboat that we sail frquently on KY Lake near where we live. My "master plan" is to retire in a few years (I am in the Army and can retire with a pension pretty soon) and to purchase a bigger sailboat that we can live and cruise on for an indefinite period of time. We made the decision early on to not have any kids, and we have no debt to speak of, so it seems like a no-brainer to sail off into the sunset. She was skeptical at first, but she has become an efficient and capable 1st mate for me, and I think that by gaining confidence in the safe environment of a lake in a slower, older and simple boat, that we can gain the experience that we need to really live the dream. I know that I have kind of strayed off of the topic a bit, and I see the demographic of the people that are typical in the sailing communities that we have interacted with (often in their 60's or older) but that really doesn't bother me/us at all...


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

That's a good plan. I threw my girlfriend straight into the fire. Month of cruising when she had never sailed. First day get to the harbor at 8. Wake up and sail across the straight of Juan de Fuca. Went through one of the windiest periods of my trip. 

From hiding in the cockpit in 20 knot seas against the current. 
"Is it supposed to tip over?"

"Yeah yeah, didn't I tell you it did that? It does. It won't tip over all the way. It's
Supposed to be fun"

"It's not fun"


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## SunnnyD (Jul 3, 2013)

Haha, sounds very familiar; I had a little bit of sailing experience before we took the classes, but my wife had never stepped foot on a sailboat; rather only bass boats with her family growing up. I wish I could have counted the amount of times the instructor told her when he saw the look of horror in her eyes that heeling is, "normal and necessary" when you are sailing towards the wind... now it is a fun part of the experience. Just takes a little getting used to. Add some Pacific wave action to the mix, and you really have some fun.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

To the OP,

Money might have something to do with it too. It can take a while for young people to get enough money together to get into sailing, especially if they have children and a house and all the rest. It's not very expensive to get into day sailing, but cruising on your own boat is a different matter.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Shinook said:


> In eras past, that may not have been a big concern, but today many parts of the world are increasingly dangerous and roaming around acting like you don't know what you are doing is a recipe for disaster.


Increasingly dangerous compared to what ?

The 1980's when you couldn't go to eastern Europe because it was Soviet bloc ?
The 1970's when there was nuclear testing in the south Pacific ?
The 1960's during the Cuban missile crisis off the coast of Florida ? Vietnam ?
The 1950's when kids practiced "Duck and cover" in preparation for a nuclear attack ?
The 1940's when there was a World War and bombs rained down on Europe ?
Etc ...

The only thing "increasingly dangerous" today are people's imaginations about what horrible things await them if they step outside without sunblock and a satellite phone.

If you're ever going to sail, probably best to do it while you have the chance, because if human history is any indicator of the future all this peace we've enjoyed for the past 20+ years won't last.









(Berlin wall, 1961)









(World war II, Dresden)









(Vietnam)


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I didn't start sailing a lot until I was 26. I would have loved to been sailing my own boat in high school and college, and after I graduated, but I was too broke. Crewing on racing boats wasn't my deal, either.

Being born rich sure would have helped.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I am meeting an increasing numer of people in their 20s and 30s living aboard and getting into the cruising lifestyle. The cost of housing has caused some to clue into the fact that the ony way they can ever hope to own a home, is if the home is a boat. 
I have owned my own home debt free since my early 20s, something which would have been impossible for me on land.


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## SkipperK (May 15, 2013)

24 here and recently bought a Vic 18. By no means will I be cruising, but at least it's a step in the right direction.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Well im laying my my V berth right now with a fan blowing on me direct and the forward hatch and both ports open and its still pretty warm. My 80 watt solar panal never seems to make battery voltage green and no seems are trying to invade my privy space. 
Cruising and liveaboard two different things imo. Of course my boat is not fancy with AC refrigeration satellite tv shower ect ect.
ill stick it out two or three years. Then im selling this boat and moving back on land fo eva.
prolly will buy a sunfish or something for sailing. Will never live aboard again ever. Its not my passion. Yet ive done it, built the boat, started ocean sailing, and will do a summer or two in the Bahamas. That will be enough for me. 
Why dont young people cruise? Bc we cant afford island packets. Living aboard for us is like living out of a pop up. It aint grand.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I'm more glad everyday that I chose seattle over Florida. The heat! I can't sleep in the heat. 

Nah bflorida has better cruising in a way. It's just that its the rest of the year. But still glad I'm here 

I know it gets cramped. Believe me I feel it but its not bad. I don't think I even want a boat over 30 feet. Too much maintenance. My friend has a ranger 33. Great boat. Lots more room than mine, but I sail way more. It's so easy to get everything put up and taken down. And if I here one more story about inboard engine problems I don't think I'll ever be able to get one. 

I'm hooked. For me this is just the beginning. I will do this on and off for life. I'm not going to be a diehard live aboard. But a lifelong cruiser. It's the best way to live for me. Life is better and easier. I can live anywhere anyone would want to live and for less. San Diego? 1 million+ for an ocean view and fighting traffic or swinging on a mooring ball with 360 degree ocean views and no traffic. No bad neighbors. No trash cans and kitchen remodeling. No flat screen tvs to rot my brain.


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## sailorlee15 (May 17, 2012)

Hi Everyone, 
There are many younger people out there doing it. Being 26 I have scoured the net looking for blogs featuring younger people that are doing cool things in sailboats. Personally, I am sailing and refitting a Tayana 37 out of Baltimore. With a timeline to begin a world cruise in spring 2015. I think the market is amazing out there for finding classic plastic is very useable condition. Most refitting skills can be learned and there are still DIY yards out there that will let you do pretty much any job you want to on your own boat. I keep my blog at tayana37.com S/V Satori |S/V Satori[/url]. Some other examples of the sub 30 crowd are: Yacht Teleport, S/V Robin, Ben and Teresa over at sailing simplicity. If anyone knows of more that I don't have listed on my site, please message me.

I agree that the younger sector of cruising is not large, but that makes advocacy and awareness of just how accessible the lifestyle can be all the more important.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Thats a nice boat. I would only be concerned about the size and subsequent cost of maintenance slash repairs.
are you planning on solo sailing? A boat the big is very hard to maneuver into tight moorings or dockages and the force needed to crank the winches while holding the traveler line and maintaining heading can be tiresome quickly.
A two man crew would probably be needed but its not impossible to go it alone. Very cool what your doing. Refitting is fun but expensive. Learn a lot however and it feels good to say you own your own boat, dinghy or otherwise (veiled refrence).


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## Guero (Dec 29, 2009)

Hi,

The lifestyle of cruising sailboats contrasts with that of most young professionals who can afford them.

I'm 37 years old and I own a Hunter 410. I'm a bit of a contrast in my sailing club. I'm lucky enough that I can stay out of the office for extended periods of times, but with a compromise, I needed to equip my boat with KVH V3 for broadband internet cause of work obligations. When I want to go anchor at some remote Islands or a zone without phone signal, like I did last week, I went to Alacranes Reef north of Mexican coast, I need to be able to receive calls from employees and check my emails at least twice a day. Not everyone can do that. So, it's much more practical to have a motor yatch, with more space, more accomodations, get somewhere fast, spend week-end, come back quick cause they can't afford to stay there for a week. People have jobs, families, obligations, and time restraints. You also don't have to find a friend that can share shifts with you to sail the boat. Wife factor also, a lot of sailing guys I know have wives who hates it. Mine just starting to enjoy it after 4 years of sailing. 

There's also a learning curve associated to it, security instructions to be explained to your guests, have to ask them to move around because you have to do a tack, explain that the boat will now heel and that it's normal, looking at the sheer fear of someone when an unexpected gust heels the boat to 30 degrees for a few second . So if you like to entertain guests, a sailboat is not an ideal choice. Regarding fishing, you can't also go fish at 50 miles of the coast in 2 hours. The draft impose restrictions to where you can anchor and how near from the beach you need to be to anchor. More restrictions. 

My reason for sailing over motoring even though I like a good fast plane on friend's boats? My sailboat is the only thing I've that I can't go fast. It's the only place I disconnect my brain from the stress, except when I need to do quick checks of my work emails on the sat internet. But I can see why a lot of guy interested in recreational boating would not look at sailboats. 

With that said, I know a lot of young sailors and also live boards in their 30's, but they are a minority I believe. 

My 2 cents.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I think you folks have ALL hit on the reasons there are few people cruising (which is really what the OP is asking).
A) Cost, yes some junkers can be had for free, but due to time constraints and/or lack of skill, it's not practical to take on that kind of project.
B) Cost again! It costs money to tow a trailerable (gas), and most POS Prius type cars get great MPG (cause gas is stupid expensive) can't tow! Forget that if you go bigger, you need to pay for marinas, and insurance, and or luxury tax, registration, etc.
C) Skill - sailing is a sport, and requires time to learn (you see in A?) people don't have time
D) Kids learn today about instantaneous gratification (flip a switch and live in a new realm) the XBox 360 experience.
D) Speed - most people who DON'T sail don't realize that sailing can be FAST! It CAN be an extreme sport... In fact I'd argue MOST of the people on this site don't think of Sailing that way either (not a knock please don't mistake that - cruising is ALSO extreme, but NOT what we are talking about).
E) I am going to say it... SAILING IS DYING! It's a dying sport. It's dying because of A-D. Less and Less people are buying into it. Therefore less and less people are passing it along to their children (as a skill). It WON'T EVER go away, but it will certainly become a margins only sport (you know unless owning a power boat becomes too expensive for anyone - ie $7/gallon gas).

I submit that if young people think you have to spend $12mill to go fast (see AC-72), apparently they've never seen a foiling moth!





But you know for under $10k, you can still have a lot of fun:


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Man, I am in Newport right now, if you could see the hundreds (or thousands) of sailboats in the harbor and watch the crews, you wouldn't think sailing is dying, because it isn't. They are buying into it with amounts of money that I can't imagine. 

But its a niche sport for sure.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> Man, I am in Newport right now, if you could see the hundreds (or thousands) of sailboats in the harbor and watch the crews, you wouldn't think sailing is dying, because it isn't. They are buying into it with amounts of money that I can't imagine.
> 
> But its a niche sport for sure.


I just spent a few hours with a couple that have sailed to Maine from the UK. They've spent 18 months aboard and sailed around 10,000 NM to get here.

To hear them talk, there's a cruising community everywhere they've been along the way. In fact, cruiser word of mouth is their main source of info for their itinerary as they go. They only have wifi when they're near a source.

I asked him are they the young people amongst those they meet? He said pretty much(he's 38).

This makes sense to me just as it did 20 years ago when I was off for a year(then in our 30's we were the younger people we met on the east coast).

It took them a couple of decades of careers to make themselves financially solvent enough to go cruising. Cruising, if you're traveling long distance, isn't cheap. It's not the same as living aboard.

Along the way, they each earned their own homes, each of which is now rented which is supplying what they need to cruise on a 34' boat around the Atlantic. They've well experienced, frugal, and smart with their choice of boat and gear.

This thread often feels like it exists in a vacuum when I read about the lack of young people out cruising. Sailing has always been a niche recreation, but seems alive and well on my coast, as does a smaller fraction that are off cruising.


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