# Catalina 38 pros and cons



## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

I am toying with the idea for going to the States to purchase a Catalina 38, 1980-85 build. They seem to be in the US$ 50,000 mark, This is half the cost of the same yacht in Australia. I intend to make an extended trip pack to Australia via the islands. Please tell me why/why not this is a good/bad idea.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

It really depends a lot on how much experience you have sailing. I would look for one on the West Coast if you're planning on going back to Oz. That will make your trip significantly easier. Also, what is your time frame for the trip. Making a long voyage like this with a fixed schedule is less than optimal


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Sailingdog

The west coast was the idea, the trip home would be extended and split into a manageable time frame. leaving the yacht at various ports if needed. An other option would be having the yacht delivered by Dock Wise cost @ US$23000 to Brisbane Australia or preferred option @ US$ 16000 to Pettit, Tahiti.

Simon


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## haffiman37 (Jun 4, 2004)

East cost or west coas does not make such a big difference, You will have some oceans to cross anyway. Boat size? I see no big problem, but do not go in the most common trapverload the boat! With a crew of 3-4, you may calculate around 1500-2000kg including crew, water, diesel, provisioning etc. We did a trip from Norway to Malaysia last year (2004-2005) in a Jeanneau SO37. You may read about the trip and my comments about the boat at:
http://www.geocities.com/haffiman37


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## Jedah (Feb 8, 2005)

I'm thinking of doing much the same, I've heard something about a 6 month rule to avoid tax, not sure if it only applies to California.


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## haffiman37 (Jun 4, 2004)

There are similar rules around, particularly in Europe. However it is mainly a problem if You want to leave the boat for a periode of time. As long as You 'stay onboard' there is rarly problems.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Simon..The C38 is a great value coastal cruising boat. I would never consider taking one on a long bluewater passage. Not saying you wouldn't make it...just seems risky to me. You might find more knowledgeable opinions on the C38 mail list available here on Sail net. 
I HAVE used Dockwise and they are terriffic.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

If U mean an import Tax. Australia has a free trade agrement with the US, if the yacht was built in the US and bought in the US then no import duty is payable. u still need to pay GST at 10% purchase price.and about $1200 fumigation.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

*Catalina 380*

My family and I lived aboard and cruised Florida in a Catalina 380. I think there are a number of changes between the two boats (ours was a 2001), but I think the hull was the same??? If so, I can tell you that it does do well in bad weather. We went through 10-15 foot seas for 27 hours and although we did not enjoy it and were popping ginger pills, we were never slung around like the other 2 boats that were following us. The waves are not as tall as the pacific where it always seems to be long rollers, but the gulf seems to have very steep (square) waves that really put your footing to a test. I think with many modifications, your boat would be fine if it is like the 380.

As far as dockwise goes, I have heard good things about them also. Friends have used them. If you are a little flexible on the timing of it, you might get a good deal (which will still be many thousands of dollars).

Hope that helps. Good luck.


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## Newport41 (Jun 30, 2006)

I think you can cross is any decent boat as long as you're up to it and you use your head. A Catalina that passes survey isn't jsut gonna drop to the bottom of the ocean. People cross in all sorts of floating crap. As long as you're prepared then it'll be fine. I was looking at the same boat a few years ago. But I was planning for a lot of bluewater use so it didn't meet with what I wanted. If you're looking to take her back to Aus and then use her along the coast I think it's a good idea. The reason they're so cheap is cause there is SOOOOOO many of them, so find one you like. I'm from Canada and I fond the same thing. Cheap boats in the US. Another thing is low ball them. Boats in the US are selling way below market price. When there's lots of them and they're selling cheap how can you loose. Good luck. Like I said it wasn't the right boat for me but they are a very good Value.


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## Newport41 (Jun 30, 2006)

Also, it's not the same as a 380. The 380 is a more modern high, wide ass kind of boat. The old 38 is more stable. Narrow, higher ballast ratio and higher ultimate stability rating. The numbers don't lie. Not to call down the 380, she's a nice boat but these wide in the ass comfort cruisers are a liability offshore.


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## duffer1960 (Aug 11, 2000)

The problem you would have on a trip like that would be tankage. The fresh water tank is only around 35 gallons and the diesel tank is around 21. Check www.catalina38.org for more info.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Thanks Russ

I was thinking of a desalinator for the water. but the fuel could be a problem any idea re flexible fuel bladers, is there room to locate an extra 60 to 80 gallons, this would give @ 640 miles. at 6 knots.


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## duffer1960 (Aug 11, 2000)

There is quite a bit of room under the starboard settee, and there is a huge sail locker/lazarette under the port seat in the cockpit, though I don't know if you would want to add that much weight back there. There is also some room in the bow under the v-berth in front of the fresh water tank. BTW, the holding tank is also only about 25-30 gallons, but you probably wouldn't need to worry about that. I recommend joining the e-mail list at catalina38.org and ask your questions there, you will get a HUGE response.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*38 Catalina Offshore*

Hello I am the owner of a Catalina 38 Hull # 33 she is fast and sturdy in most conditions. I have been offshore in the boat several times and never felt the first sign of stress due to working hull or bulkheads moving ect. I just compleated 1400 miles and the boat is in Texas and is for sale.......... My health is failing which is a bummer since I wanted to sail to guess where, OZ. Well I guess I will have to fly down sometime. email me at [email protected] I will be glad to tell you everything about the Catalina 38 yachts which are IOR boats and were limited in numbers built to around 240 total. Fast ocean going /racing yachts is what they are all have some minor issues but tough as an Aussies hide. GuDay! see www.cataqlina38.org


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

*did it eventually happened?*

I am just about to buy a C38 with the idea to sail to australia and resale the boat there. i was wondering what happened with the project and if there is anything i can learn from people who've taken boats across to australia. 
i guess it is a far shot cause this thread 's last post is five years ago but if anybody have anything to say i'll be glad to hear it


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

KarakaII said:


> I am just about to buy a C38 with the idea to sail to australia and resale the boat there. i was wondering what happened with the project and if there is anything i can learn from people who've taken boats across to australia.
> i guess it is a far shot cause this thread 's last post is five years ago but if anybody have anything to say i'll be glad to hear it


Simon eventually bought an older Ericson 39 and did exactly what he proposed.. with minimal fanfare and complete success.

Funny, when I saw your post I ended up reading the OP and for a moment thought he was going to do it all over again, and had to laugh at SD's question of whether he had the experience... then I noticed the date!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, the experience Simon has today is a bit different than when I asked about it back in 2006. 


Faster said:


> Simon eventually bought an older Ericson 39 and did exactly what he proposed.. with minimal fanfare and complete success.
> 
> Funny, when I saw your post I ended up reading the OP and for a moment thought he was going to do it all over again, and had to laugh at SD's question of whether he had the experience... then I noticed the date!


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Here's an unfortunate example:
Missing Aussie Sailor Off Virginia, Presumed Lost | Daily Sailing News from North American Sailor
Australia is a long way in a Catalina.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

paulk said:


> ......Australia is a long way in a Catalina.


Australia's a long way in a Hinckley too!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Is there not a thread around with Simons trials and trivializations with the E39 getting it ready etc that we can show KrakaII? Not sure I want to find it myself..... but I am recalling one or two. I think he still posts upon occasion, so a PM or equal might be worth the effort on krakaII's part.

Marty


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

*catalina C38*

wow, responses...

well that sound really great. any way I can get in touch with this simon?

as for sailing the catalina, i'm not too worried. i have the experience and even if the boat is not a heavy duty cruiser it is still a fairly good boat that can handle some miles. going down the trade winds to australia shouldn't be the end of the world really. what's 7000 miles after all? 
joke apart i think it is totally feasible. just have to reef early and play it safe, not pushing the boat and all that.

well, any other comments and advices though, shoot away, it is always good to have varied opinions, and you guys seem to have plenty of that.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Do not quote me on the boat you are thinking of, but Brian, our sorta kinda esteemed sr murderator who seems to come and go..... IIRC he likes the C38 for offshore use. PM CruisingDad, or hopefully maybe since he is supposedly back onshore he might off a suggestion or two or three. 

Marty


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## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

This thread documents most of Simon's trip. Great read / one of my favourate threads.

Ilenart

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/42817-simonvs-journey-australia.html#post308944


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

I know I didn't ask for it but thanks Ilenart. You are right, it is good reading


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

*Food for thought*



Faster said:


> Australia's a long way in a Hinckley too!


I'd think the trip safer in a 1970 Hinckley than a 2010 Catalina.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

paulk said:


> I'd think the trip safer in a 1970 Hinckley than a 2010 Catalina.


Why?


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

*The Karaka story*

Hello all,

Thanks for all the responses, I really appreciate it. I went to simon's thread and checked a few things, but I did not find the technical info about importing the boat to australia... but good for him anyway, he did it... I'll try to get in touch with him, but I can not send him a personal message at this point cause apparently I need to post more entries before I can do that. So here goes, another entry.
I noticed how you guys seem to relish a good yarn, so I figured you might not mind me sharing mine.

I'm a young french guy and when I happened to be in Hong kong in mid 2004 after delivering a boat from australia, I found a 53ft steel ketch abandonned in the harbor. I asked around and the owner, who was away and doing other things, sold the boat to me for a dollar. I put her back in shape roughly, and went sailing, taking crew to help with the running costs and mostly having a wonderfull time, gypsy pirate style.
We covered a little over 40 000 miles so far, going down the china seas, through singapore, across the indian ocean, round good hope, up the south atlantic to brazil, made a little side trip up the amazon, then into the carribean, the panama canal, and now we're in baja california getting ready for a refit. 
While having some adventures last week trying to find a nice cheap boatyard to take karaka out we stumbled on a nice older catalina for sale and so with some of the crew we're considering buying her and sailing her to australia to resell with the hope of making enough profit to finance the refit. Also it would be nice not to have to worry about the price of beer when we take the big boat through the pacific for the next few years... 
Anyway, that's how I came to ask about simon's trip.

If you think I'm making this up, or if you have five minutes, check our website
We can use anything we can get so don't feel bad about spreading the word.

thanks
Tom


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm sorry Tom, not to be cynical, but are you asking for donations so you and your friends can go kegging across the pacific in a new-to-you yacht so you can make money in Australia? Will I get a bumper sticker or a t-shirt? Hehe. 

Anyways, never hurts to ask I guess, as long as you are willing to put up with a few off the wall comments, or not so off the wall!

Anyways, I owned a C380, not a 38, but if you have direct questions, please let me know and I will try and help.  I know the 380 pretty well and know Catalinas in general very well.

Brian


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

*yope*

yes that's pretty much it, we're asking for donations to take a beautiful old ship out sailing, taking a bunch of people along on a non profit basis, getting involved with community development, workshops and sustainable living, sharing knowledge and skills between the local populations and the crew, educating random people about the possibilities of taking on an alternative lifestyle, and giving the opportunity to a lot of people to come and experience

As for the catalina, it is a c38, which i think is quite a different boat from the 380. i'm doing research at the moment, and while she's not my ideal cruising boat she seem to be a fine boat and definitely able to sail to australia with a crew of dedicated young sailors. I'd still like to get info about the paperwork of getting a foreign boat into australia though. my girlfriend and first mate is an aussie so she's doing that part of the research but the more info we get the better.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

KarakaII said:


> yes that's pretty much it, we're asking for donations to take a beautiful old ship out sailing, taking a bunch of people along on a non profit basis, getting involved with community development, workshops and sustainable living, sharing knowledge and skills between the local populations and the crew, educating random people about the possibilities of taking on an alternative lifestyle, and giving the opportunity to a lot of people to come and experience all that for a share of the cost so small that most stay several months. Anyway check the website for more details:
> 
> As for the catalina, it is a c38, which i think is quite a different boat from the 380. i'm doing research at the moment, and while she's not my ideal cruising boat she seem to be a fine boat and definitely able to sail to australia with a crew of dedicated young sailors. I'd still like to get info about the paperwork of getting a foreign boat into australia though. my girlfriend and first mate is an aussie so she's doing that part of the research but the more info we get the better.


I cannot remember, but do the 38 and 380 share hulls? I know the Morgan 38 does. Anyways, might be a Catalina question. The 38 is regarded as a different beast than many of the Catalinas. I think she was a heavier build.

Good luck with your search.

Brian


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

*fifth post so i can start sending PM*

yep the c38 is a sparkman and stephens and looks quite different from the rest of the catalinas. she looks fast. i've also reas somewhere she is the same hull as the swan 38 which is interesting.

anyway once more, any input is appreciated


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

_"Do the 38 and 380 share hulls?"_

I don't think so Brian. He is talking about the Catalina 38 which was a recycled S&S IOR era race boat. Although several of these old girls have been beefed up and taken distance cruising, this would be a miserable choice for that purpose, especially short-handed.

For what it is worth, the Catalina 38 does not share the same hull with the Swan. There was a Swan with a similar hull but it was a very different boat with a lot more ballast. The C-38 hull molds came from an earlier boat, but I can't recall which one at the moment...perhaps a Yankee 38.

Jeff


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> _"Do the 38 and 380 share hulls?"_
> 
> I don't think so Brian. He is talking about the Catalina 38 which was a recycled S&S IOR era race boat. Although several of these old girls have been beefed up and taken distance cruising, this would be a miserable choice for that purpose, especially short-handed.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jeff! I wondered about that. I have heard a lot of people talk up the 38 as a great blue water boat. Being that I have raced on several IOR's, I begin to question that... but hey!? Each to his own.

Brian


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Ref "hey give me money to support my lifestyle" nice try but the cigar remains unlit. I've decided to put the money into the "get the wombats a Bestevaer foundation" and I encourage all SailNutters to follow my example.

Now as for importing a boat into Australia it is not rocket science. You roll up to your chosen port of entry, fill in a few forms, pay the customs duty if applicable (5%) and gst (10%) on customs valuation which in most cases will be more than you paid for the boat cos they try and factor in transportation costs even if you sail her here yourself. They also have their own unique way of calculating exchange rates. You can then register the boat as an Australian Ship if you so desire but this is not compulsary unless you wish to take her offshore again at a later date. Australia and the US have a free trade agreement so there is no duty payable if from the US.

You can find Oz Customs info here...



> www.[B]customs[/B].gov.au/
> 
> Ship Registration here...





> Australian Maritime Safety Authority*shipping*_registration/
> 
> Yes I know the way they calculate what you have to pay is unfair but do I care ? Not really.
> 
> What is a free trade agreement ? This is is where country A (lets call it Murica) gets to send everything and anything to Country B (Orstraya) duty free while giving Country B a good rogering up the back door at the same time. In return Country B gets to send stuff that does not compete with anything Country A produces, gets to be called our little friend and is visited by Country B's first person...something called an Oprawinfry I believe.





> To answer any further questions...did I get out on the wrong side of the bed this morning ? All the evidence suggests that I did.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Doesn't Oz have a rather stringent rule about advance notice of arrival???


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

tdw said:


> What is a free trade agreement ? This is is where country A (lets call it Murica) gets to send everything and anything to Country B (Orstraya) duty free while giving Country B a good rogering up the back door at the same time. In return Country B gets to send stuff that does not compete with anything Country A produces, gets to be called our little friend and is visited by Country B's first person...something called an _Oprawinfry_ I believe.
> 
> To answer any further questions...did I get out on the wrong side of the bed this morning ? All the evidence suggests that I did.


Damn, you are all kinds of political this morning. Did a certain wombat not get his coffee? 

Not that I am actually disagreeing with you...

On subject, thanks for the information. Not that I can do it at the moment, but knowing *how* one might go about getting a nice blue water cruiser from the states makes me feel that _perhaps_ one day I _might_


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

I guess i'll just be gratefull for all the info and i'll pass on the rough tone. thank mate, i actually find this helpfull, although there is a difference between looking it up on the net while you coffee brews and actually visiting the offices with your importation pending in brisbane. i'm not so much looking for the official story as for the story of people who actually have done what i intend to do and who can tell me how it went. in real life.

the arrival thing in oz is not that bad, they hope you'll send them a mail but they acknowledge that if you are on a sail boat you don't necessarily have internet. not a worry. they usually fly over with a plane and contact you by vhf anyway.

one thing keep coming up, would you care to elaborate why you so distrust the C38 as a blue water boat? it is not a boat i would take around the horn but for the milk run it seems more than adequate. it is not a pure racing boat by any mean, it is built and equiped for cruising. people sail all over the place with such boats, or even smaller and flimsier ones. Ever heard of a book called my old man and the sea? a dad and his son going around the horn on a 26 footer production boat without an engine? would you consider that impossible as well, or a miserable choice? I delivered racing boats across oceans before and i don't see the issue. I'm wondering how much of this kind of thing you actually have done before you start knocking down the idea. we might have different standards and i have a hard time accepting your internet opinion as gospel. 

please enlighten me and please give specific reasons.


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

another thing about the australian paperwork is that one of us, my girlfriend, is australian, so we would put the boat to her name before even leaving this side of the ocean. we figure it will simplify things. 

i'm feeling bad for what i just wrote, excuse me if i sounded harsh, i appreciate the exchange but i get upset when i see people with 30 ft boat on chesepeake bay giving me advice about blue water sailing. it seems like people say a lot of things without really having a clue. i appologize if i offended anyone.

also the swan thing was a mistake, my bad.

and as for being short handed thi is not the case, i will actually have a hard time turning down people who want to come. we're 4 already and that seem enough for me.

and finally about the donation thing, you'll be surprised. we do get donations. i just have never posted here so you don't happen to know about it. it is not that out there as you think. we're a non profit organisation. we're not the red cross i'll grant you that but this is not entirely to sustain my life style. there is a bit more involved.

but i'm all for wombats otherwise. they deserve a break.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Not to be a pain, KarakaII, but if you are referring to CruisingDad, the guy has been a pretty good source for all things Catalina. In fact, when asking questions about the purchase and sailing of them, I was repeatedly referred to him as a reliable source.

It is always good to double-check advice (be it "internet opinion" or not), so get the second-opinion - I did. Just we don't need to be snippy to someone offering free advice on something you asked about explicitly.

_*Note:* Perhaps there is something in the NSW air this morning, but the above post got my hackles up... and I am barely an acquaintance of CD (counting myself lucky at that). If it wasn't a dig at the man - ignore me as just another cranky fart on the forums this morning _

_*Edit:* OK, ignore the above - you got in the apology before my post went up_


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

yeah it is easy to get worked up on this kind of forum. please bear with me.

cruising dad, since i have the luck to have your attention, would you mind giving me your opinion about the C38 and why taking her across the ocean would be a bad idea. (if not a miserable choice as whoever said)
i am really surprised because to be honnest in the years i've been sailing around the world, i have met countless people in the most remote places with boats that are not nearly as big, as well built, as well maintained, as well equipped, etc etc. are you guys aware of what kind of boats you can find actually cruising the world? there is a clear difference between the magazines idea of an ideal boat and what you find out there. anything is possible, but if it was easy then everybody would do it. i happen to be a fairly experienced blue water sailor and i don't see any problem with sailing a good C38 equipped for cruising down the trade winds across the pacific. if that boat can race she can also handle a few thousand miles of lightwind running.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

The C38 was originally designed and built by Sparkman and Stephens. The hull came from the S&S 38. Frank Butler bought the design and mold so he could build fleet racing boats for the Congressional Cup. He modified it by “Catalinaizing” the interior, increasing the width of the coach roof and re-balancing the rig to help alleviate some the worst tendencies of the IOR influenced design. It is pretty much bullet proof (I’ve raced on a couple in my time). What makes them less optimum for a cruiser, is it is still an IOR racer at heart, not something most people want to handle down wind shorthanded while following the trades. The only knock that I’ve heard is why didn’t Frank build the rest of his line up like he did on the 38. 

The 380 is another misunderstood boat. That one started out as the Morgan 38. And Frank again, redesigned the interior to “Catalinaize” it when he bought out Morgan. So the 380 is (mostly) a Morgan design, built in the Morgan yard by (former) Morgan employees. You guys ought to quit your knee jerk reactions to the Catalina Diamond. It’s unhealthy.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

KarakaII said:


> are you guys aware of what kind of boats you can find actually cruising the world? there is a clear difference between the magazines idea of an ideal boat and what you find out there. anything is possible, but if it was easy then everybody would do it. i happen to be a fairly experienced blue water sailor and i don't see any problem with sailing a good C38 equipped for cruising down the trade winds across the pacific.


This is a point that comes up around every month here: people have vastly different risk tolerances. This shouldn't come as a surprise (my mother, a sociologist, even wrote a book or two about it, in a different context).

A lot of the more experienced sailors on this website are a bit older than you (or me!) and pretty darn risk-averse. To them, it's obvious you don't take a boat offshore unless you're darn sure it can take a pounding, even if the expectation is for good weather. I can't speak to this particular hull and whether it's an exception, but in general Catalina's aren't in the offshore catagory to the SN crowd.

You may think differently, and that's fair, since you seem to also have the miles under your keel to deserve to have an opinion. You don't hear landlubbers like me piping up!

Nice blog, by the way. I respect what you guys are doing a lot. Have to keep reminding myself that my job, and house, and car, etc are supposed to amount to the same thing - living things because they're what I actually want to do, not as a means to an occasional weekend or vacation.

Would be curious to hear about the 'bit more involved' in the far-out places you reach - I'm sure there's a lot of good that some basic knowledge can bring, if you've got a good attitude and are looking to help.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

It wouldn't be a shock if the C38 shared some traits with the similar sized Swans of the same era - they came from the same design house after all. George can correct me if I'm wrong but I think the C38 was also marketed as a Yankee 38 prior to Frank Butler's involvement.

In any event I imagine that a well-found example could readily complete the trip being contemplated. It might be a bit of a handful in certain squally conditions, but that's true of many boats. And there's certainly a considerable price differential between here and there.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Learn something new every day. Didn’t realize that the mold was originally sold to Yankee. I did know that Frank tried to license the S&S name and market the boat as a “S&S38 by Catalina”. Needless to say, it didn’t happen.

What are the downsides to cruising this boat? Sail handling is the main issue IMHO. This, like other IOR boats, they have a tall aspect rig and a realitivly large “J” balanced by a small “P”. To control the boat in various wind speeds, you change headsails. “Roller reefing” alone won’t cut it. So you are looking at storing two headsails and a third one bent on. The boat goes to weather like a freight train. Unfortunately, with the tumblehome hull, water comes up the leward cockpit drain, oftentimes making the helmsman stand ankle deep in water. The enormous kites that thing flys takes more than a couple of on-watch crew to handle them. Again, you manage it by having multiple spinnakers. So, in the end, you are storing a lot of sails instead of provisions and cruising gear. The interior in that tumblehome hull form is wide and there is precious lttle to hang on to when going forward to use the head. All of these attributes are common to IOR designed boats. The C38 isn’t any worse, and is better than most of its bretherin. Not my cup of tea, but I’m sure that there is a market for them down under.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> Learn something new every day. Didn't realize that the mold was originally sold to Yankee. I did know that Frank tried to license the S&S name and market the boat as a "S&S38 by Catalina". Needless to say, it didn't happen.
> 
> What are the downsides to cruising this boat? Sail handling is the main issue IMHO. This, like other IOR boats, they have a tall aspect rig and a realitivly large "J" balanced by a small "P". To control the boat in various wind speeds, you change headsails. "Roller reefing" alone won't cut it. So you are looking at storing two headsails and a third one bent on. The boat goes to weather like a freight train. Unfortunately, with the tumblehome hull, water comes up the leward cockpit drain, oftentimes making the helmsman stand ankle deep in water. The enormous kites that thing flys takes more than a couple of on-watch crew to handle them. Again, you manage it by having multiple spinnakers. So, in the end, you are storing a lot of sails instead of provisions and cruising gear. The interior in that tumblehome hull form is wide and there is precious lttle to hang on to when going forward to use the head. All of these attributes are common to IOR designed boats. The C38 isn't any worse, and is better than most of its bretherin. Not my cup of tea, but I'm sure that there is a market for them down under.


George, my man, that is seriously a fine summation of the boat. It's good to see feedback on what it takes to sail one of these. Thanks.


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

*we're getting somewhere*

thanks george, now that sounds like solid stuff.
I agree with most of the points. not the ideal cruiser for long term but can handle the trip.
to me it just means we'll have to be extra carefull and not push the boat to its limit and we should make it to the other side just fine.
As i see it this will be a delivery, nothing more. i have my own cruising boat and that the one i will be using to go explore all those nice islands.
thanks everybody, and keep the good work, but don't forget to go sailing. computers don't float.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Hey karak - I checked out your blog. Looks like you guys are having fun.

Hang loose and stay safe.


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

We're having tons of fun. That's what it is all about isn't it?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

KarakaII said:


> yeah it is easy to get worked up on this kind of forum. please bear with me.
> 
> cruising dad, since i have the luck to have your attention, would you mind giving me your opinion about the C38 and why taking her across the ocean would be a bad idea. (if not a miserable choice as whoever said)
> i am really surprised because to be honnest in the years i've been sailing around the world, i have met countless people in the most remote places with boats that are not nearly as big, as well built, as well maintained, as well equipped, etc etc. are you guys aware of what kind of boats you can find actually cruising the world? there is a clear difference between the magazines idea of an ideal boat and what you find out there. anything is possible, but if it was easy then everybody would do it. i happen to be a fairly experienced blue water sailor and i don't see any problem with sailing a good C38 equipped for cruising down the trade winds across the pacific. if that boat can race she can also handle a few thousand miles of lightwind running.


Yikes! Argh... mine honor called out and I haven't even been back at Sailnet for a day!??? I need to change my name to Smackdaddy so I can avoid getting any grief. Hehe!! No problem, so here goes.

First let me clear a few things up. I read your post and re-read it. I have come to the firm conclusion that you think I sail by a computer and hate Catalinas? You can re-read my blog up top and I will provide pictures, but that is not the case. I started sailing & owning Catalinas (believe it or not) in 1995 and have been a firm supporter of their boats. In fact, there is no one on this board that is a bigger proponent of them than me. I have owned four of them: The Catalina 250, 320, 380, and now the 400. I am the technical editor for the 400's and I have sailed and been on MANY (if not most) of their other deigns.

In 2000, I got my kid(s) into sailing. We lived aboard and cruised as a family on our 380. Approximately 14 months ago, I took off and did it again on our 400. I still own the C400.

SO, I hope in all of this, I can alleviate any preconceived notions you have about me not liking Catalinas and having at least a little sea time under my belt. I also want you to appreciate that my focus is, and probably will be for a long time, cruising with kids. SOrry... it is a bit differnt. But my kids have known nothing but boating their entire lives and I have learned things that work (for us) and things that dont. THis is based upon experince and not a magazine. My opinions may not be magainzine accurate, and in fact, may not agree at all with a 50 year salty sailor. But they are based upon real life. SO if you see me ever paste up any inaccuracies, it is because I go off of memory and I don't google my responses.

You mentioned a level of caution when going on internet boards and getting advice. I would totally agree. Countless times I have read stuff here that I feel is flat-out wrong. SOmetimes I get into the fray... most of the time I don't. My point is that your perception of advice on the internet is spot on... but in general, there is a very good and very knowledgeable group of guys here. And I would not necessarily discount the advice of a sailor that sails a 27 foot boat on the chessy. He might have done a few circum's before he realized he just enjoyed a nice picnic boat on protected waters. Just a thought.

So moving on... the C38.

I said it would not be my first choice of boat. I NEVER said don't do it. It is funny the comment yo umade about what other people sail... I have said that a thousand times or more on here!!! THat comment alone made me realize you were not full of crap. I simply can't believe the crap people manage to keep floating (and sometimes not). In fact, it is rare to see a boat shiny and boat-show new out on the water. THose are the guys still back at the office working on the mortgage. So, to set the record clear, I am not saying it would not make it. I firmly stand by that it would not be my first choice. Why?

Typical production issues. I don't like the water cap. I don't like the diesel cap. I don't like the hatches (I prefer screw down dogs). I have not ever had a boat whose bulkhead sqeaked... but all my boats have been new that I have owned. I don't like the storage (a biggie for me). I don't like the handholds. I like a larger and more dedicated chart table since I am always rolling out charts when underway. I don't like keel stepped masts (they leak). I don't like the shallow bilges. As you know, the water builds under the leward boards. I like a seperate dedicated shower. I have raced several IOR's, and would take them for beer cans, but not for long distance cruising. THere is not a great spot for my kids to hang out and sleep or pull out legos and build projects.

Instead, I would opt for a different boat for that long of a distance. I would opt for a Tayana 37 or preferably a 42. My dad owns a Tayana 42. Wonderfull boat and undervalued. I know the boat very well. It has everything above that I like, with a few exceptions. What I hate about many of these bluewater boats is that they cannot get out of their own way (read - slow) and stink in light airs. WHen I raced the Morg 27, light airs were an absolute killer for us. Same for the Bene 10m. Heavy air and they rocked. But in heavy air and seas they were very wet. I hate wet boats and despise tender boats. The boat that has met most of my prefernces is my Catalina 400. Damn good boat for what she is. But I also customed a LOT of stuff on her and she does not look like a 400 a lot anymore. Still have some of the same issues that plague other Catalinas or production boats though (wouldn't it be nice to have a good performance boat without a spade rudder???). There probably are tose types of boats, but I don't know them or cannot afford them so did not look.

SO, as I said, that boat would not be for me for that purpose. Would I sail it across the Pacific for your purpose? Maybe, but probably not without a lot of mods. And some of that stuff you just cannot modify out unless you start exceeding the value of the boat (a mistake I have made). But your preferences are different. You may not care if a boat is wet or tender. You probably are not taking kids. Some of my personal preferences are things you may feel just the opposite about? WHo knows. But it wouldn't be my first choice.

I think Catalina makes a top notch boat for her purpose and market. I think she is better than any of her competition and better than many boats that market themselves to be a better product. I think that most modern boats could probably go anywhere with a bit of luck and someone that knows what they are doing, including production boats. But there are things that after this many years of sailing (mind you, most is with kids) and many offshore jaunts (including the Pacific, but only California coast, Catlaina Island and around San diego), that I have come to like and not like and why. That is why the C38 would not be the boat I would choose to do that run in.

I looked at your site. You have some great pics. Here's a few of my favorite:

Thanksgiving Dinner underway:










TDW (a fellow moderator, taking a swim):










Can you guess this port?









How do kids make a Fort on a boat? Ummm...










Man I am a good fisherman...










Coloring Easter Eggs in the Tortugas and hiding in the Fort...










A Catalina 38 that tried to cross the Pacific (HAHA... Just kidding, don't get mad)










Perpermint is great for kids for Seasickness...










Coming across the Gulf in a nice warm breeze just above freezing (yikes, get a fast boat that only points south)...










Kids who hate sailing...










Gotta start 'em early boys!!!










And a Picture of Sailingdog (explains his bad breath)...










THere you go... that's all you get!

Brian


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sad part is that I'm still better looking than CD...


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

KarakaII said:


> i'm feeling bad for what i just wrote, excuse me if i sounded harsh, i appreciate the exchange but i get upset when i see people with 30 ft boat on chesepeake bay giving me advice about blue water sailing. it seems like people say a lot of things without really having a clue.


If that is directed at me let me give you a clue as to what I am basing my opinion on. I have spent years of my life racing , owning and cruising boats like these on the US Atlantic coast, Chesapeake, and out in the Atlantic. Unlike you I have actually owned a Sparkman and Stephens designed IOR boat of this era and sailed her in the ocean in tough weather. These particular boats were designed and built for inshore racing at a time when both the popular yacht design styles and hardware were not what they are today and not what they were a hundred years ago. These were boats that were designed to be sailed by big skilled crews and designed to be somewhat disposable since the racing rules were changing on an annual basis. They were submarines with a mast that would round up, broach or death roll when pushed hard in a breeze.

In racing form these boats used a large sail inventory (10-12 sails) and counted on huge genoas to go even in moderate winds. But they were so tender and their hullforms so distorted that they would suddenly go from being under-powered to over-powered and require an all-hands-on-deck sail change down to a smaller sail before you broke something

The rig proportion was such that you could not get away with using small headsails when cruising and expect to make decent day's runs even on a "milk run". The standard spinnakers were huge but their size was necessary to make decent time downwind. By the same token, these boats were easy to death roll and broach when pushed.

Regarding your comment apparently about my point in saying this would be a miserable choice for that purpose, especially short-handed. It is not that I am saying that a Catalina 38 can't be distance cruised. In fact ,I know they have been. My point is that with all of the decent cruising boats out there, and even with all of the decent racer-cruisers out there for this purpose, its hard to understand why someone claiming to be knowledgeable would pick one of these.

In my life, I have seen all kinds of strange boats make all kinds of dramatic voyages. When I was restoring my folkboat in the early 1970's, probably back before you were born, a fellow came into the yard with a roughly 25 foot ancient plywood boat with cast concrete ballast that he had sailed more than half way around the world. The boat was essay in what can be done with ingenuity and patches. I understand that in the right hands almost anything can be sailed almost anywhere. But that does not say, that faced with the choice of a picking a cruising boat to buy for distance cruising that it is a good idea for someone to buy something purposely so ill-suited.

Unlike you, I've sailed these old IOR boats in tough going. As a part of a large skilled crew, we could handle them and push them hard in heavy going, but these are brutally tough boats (especially for a 38 footer), for a short-handed crew to handle in a breeze. They were miserable rollers, which would veer hard offcourse with each roll, and had to be fought back to course before the rudder stalled. They keep you on your feet. They wear you down. They are poster children with what went wrong with the racing rules of the 1970's.

I assume that you did not come here to have us kiss your feet and tell you that you are an absolute genius because you were going to buy a Catalina 38 and sail her across the Pacific. I assume that beyond your attempts at panhandling, that you came here to have a meaningful discussion about the merits of what you were proposing, with the context being that you don't own the Catalina 38 yet and you were asking about Catalina 38's as a platform to sail across the Pacific. And in that context, I said and would say that a properly equipped and beefed up Catalina 38 can be sailed across the Pacific by an experienced sailor, but an experienced sailor who actually sailed IOR boats of this era would know better than to pick an old IOR boat out of all of all of the decent choices that are out there for this purpose. The fact that the standard water tank on these boats only held 27 gallons should be a clue that they were not designed to be distance cruisers.

Distance cruising, even on a milk run is hard enough work and risky enough with a decently built, decent handlng boat. It is doubly more difficult on a ill-handling, poorly built, old race boat. So at the heart of it, my point is and was that while you may be able to sail a boat like this across the Pacific, why would you want to when there are far less miserable designs and far more suitable designs out there.

For those who forget what these things looked like here are some picts. Now visualize that thing rolling in a seaway...



















And that all is why I say these boats make miserable choices as distance cruisers.


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

All right, it seems that talking rough on those forums works wonders... now I got those lengthy responses that were pretty much exactly what I wanted to learn. Thank a lot to both cruisingdad and jeff H. 
I appologize a second time if I offended you in anyway, I hope you realize that just saying the boat is miserable does not work without some explanation. You both make a lot of sense and I really appreciate your input. please don't get complascent about spreading your knowledge, people don't necessarilly know who you are and what you have done.

To answer some of the questions, the only reason I even consider that boat is because it happens to be here, to be equipped for cruising (watermaker, radar, life raft, EPIRB, and all the rest of the stuff) and that it is in near perfect condition since it has spent the last ten years on the hard except for a few weeks each years. Added to that the boat is really cheap and would sell much more in australia, where they know about sparkman and stephens, like fast boat they can take cruising for the week end, and have heard of the catalinas before. The other boat around are either too expensive for my budget, the tayanas for example(i would definitelly go for a tayana if i had the chance, I don't) or else they are smaller boats from yard they have never heard of in australia. i want to sell the boat so i need to look at what the australian will want to buy. 
So no I am not necessarily looking for a cruiser, that is not the idea. Just imagine that I have been asked to deliver that C38 across the pacific and that I am trying to figure out how hard it will be and what I need to be carefull about. That is how I see it. I have my own cruising boat, that cruisingdad would probably like for his kids, I know she's been used to sail around the world by a familly before and the now grown up kids write to me telling me how they loved the boat. She is a 53 ft steel ketch, weight about 30 metric tons and it doesn't feel crowded when we have 30 people on the aft deck for a party. Kids would be able to ride their BMX around the deck(in fact I Do myself). That is the boat I like to take around the world, because it suits me and my style, not the C38. With the C38 I am just trying to make money to be able to keep my big boat. 
Another thing is that whilei am not used to such boats as the C38, I also did a few deliveries, especially one that took a pure carbon fiber racing machine across 1700 miles of rough china seas and I can't see how it can get much worse than that. 
Anyway, I guess what I do with my life doesn't really concern you guys, but be assured i will take your advice into account before buying that boat.


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

And to come back to another subject, I would still be interested to learn from anybody who have sold a foreign boat in australia. I haven't found any thread about that subject yet, if there is one I missed and you know about it please pass me the link. I haven't heard from SimonV yet.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

KarakaII said:


> I also did a few deliveries, especially one that took a pure carbon fiber racing machine across 1700 miles of rough china seas and I can't see how it can get much worse than that.


Out of curiosity, what was that like?

Jeff here is a big advocate of "modern" hullforms, by which I assume he means flat-bottomed, hard-chined, deep high-aspect ratio keel - like this TP 52 (or Open 60, Volvo 70, etc).

In the powerboat world, hull shape is a simple equation: flat-bottomed boats are fast and plane easily, but slam and make you miserable when the sea kicks up. Deep-vee boats cost a ton of gas to move fast, but punch through waves. Pretty much everything can be pegged by one number, degrees of hull vee (with the exception of nontraditional hulls like the Boston Whalers, which are effectively multihulled).

I can imagine the racing sailboats having arguably good rolling behaviour, but what are they like in a chop? Does the heavy keel help them punch through waves rather than slamming?

I've spent time on late 70s/early 80s moderately flat-bottomed production boats in a Lake Ontario chop, and it turns crew members green quickly without a careful hand on the tiller...I would probably rather slow down in a "deep vee" of an Alberg on a long passage then get shaken to bits on something faster....


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

Yeah well that boat in asia would have made jeff drool then. I can't remember what was the name of the yard or the designer but she was built in malaysia in the same yard that made this huge 115ft thing with wings. 

As far as rolling went it was not so bad, despite being wing and wing most of the trip. we had mostly huge ground swell from astern and an average of 25 to 35 knots of true wind which is normal weather with the north east moosoon. 
The main problem we had was to keep her from going surfing and broaching, so we pretty much had to reef and put on a small jib all the time and keep an eye on the tiller. It was putting a huge strain on the flimsy auto pilot we had and we had to be careful. but even in minimal sails we were still pumping along at 12 13 knots. We didn't even try the chute since we did not want to break anything or rip the expensive sail. The trick was to keep her dead downwind so that when she went surfing she would not broach. The waves were not steep but long enough to enable us to do that. She was very light so she would just go down the waves and then settle again. It was pretty awesome really. I wouldn't recomend it for a cruising familly but for a bunch of young delivery sailors, it was exilarating. It was not our boat either which probably helped feeling good about it. But no, rolling was not the problem, I've had much worse on a badly loaded cruising boats with a lot of weight aloft and on deck. 
But I won't give too much opinion about that because after raving that people talk about matters they have no clue about here I am doing it. I sail a huge, heavy displacement, full keel, steel ketch, what do I know about racing boats, modern hulls and rolling in the chop really? this was just anecdotal.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I will give advice as best as I can here, remembering that it is only my opinion.

I would first make sure (if you have not already) that there is a market for that boat in Australia. I know the Catalinas have made a push into OZ, but they are still relatively new there IIRC. It does not matter what the make of boat if no one wants to buy it. THat is not a negative on the c38 - just a statement I would make on ANY boat. Check with TDW; Challo3, Bentsailor, SimonV to name a few. SimonV would be the best as he is also a broker in Australia and can give you a real good view, has made the trip, and knows the laws.

Issues we have had with these boats may apply to you. I would look at chain plates. port lights/hulls leaking (a real issue over time), the shallow bilge (maybe get a hand-pump bilge pump like you use on a dink??), how are you going to tackle water and diesel? Just a note on the diesel: I have made a few passages and most of the time gerry cans were not a problem. But we got caught in a gale one time and had a REAL problem with them. I am not not a propoent of diesel cans on the lifelines. I would think on a wet boat, this would especially be a problem. How do the keel bolts look?

Just curiously, if this boat was cruised down south, why is the owner selling it so cheap (what might be considered a fire sale)? I wonder if he got his butt kicked sailing it south and will give it away to keep from taking it back north the hard way and wrong way? Just curious, but that question would pop into my mind.

Anyways, those are my thoughts off the top of my head. Good luck with it all. No hard feeling here.

Brian


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

hey there, thanks again for the input, i really did not want ot offend anyone, i was just a bit spooked by the number of random post that were not much more than open opinions. But it is all good, i actually learned a lot here.
i really would like to get in touch with this simonV, he seems like the guy i need ot talk to. Any idea what his the name of his brokerage operation or where he is from?

otherwise, the boat is really clean and dry , but here in mexico it just never rains so leaks on the hatches would show if the boat has been here for a while. the keel bolts are looking very good, some light pitting but very superficial. things just don't rust very much around here. 
as for being cheap, boats here just are. it is a very hard trip back to the west coast of the states. almost nobody would do it. the normal route is to make the detour via hawaii... but it is a very popular destination for cruisiers, it is really a nice place, so a lot of people come down but never make it further, cause further means the crossing of the pacific, and most don't go back either cause it is almost as long to do so. the result is that a lot of boat just sit here with the owners away. incrediblbe deals around here. and mst boats are us or canada registred so if anybody is looking for a cruising boat in perfect condition for cheap, mexico is the place. the bats haven't gone far yet have been prepared for offshore cruising, the weather is excelent so the boats don't deteriorate. It is really a good place to buy a boat, just have a look at the broker's listings around here... oups maybe i shouldn't say that until i bought mine... people might steal her from under me...

Anyway that is why the boat is cheap. It is not the only one. and that is why i am considering buying another boat in the first place. there are not many places in the world with such deals that i know of. And by the way the C38 is not our only option at this point, there are other boats we are looking at.

as for selling the boat in australia that is my main worry at the moment. That is what i'm trying to find out, but the catalinas sell well and catalina australia tells me that although the C38 has ever been imported since it is such a different kind of boat, there are not many of them there, but that there is one that has been around and that sold eachtime to a new owner quite fast. it is a baot that attracts a lot of interest. because it is different yet still a sparkman and stephens and a catalina. 

for water the boat has a water maker, so we'll carry a few jerrycans or soft tanks in case of failure and try to keep the small tank full. for fuel we're not too worried, with such a boat in the trade wind we shouldn't have to motor that much. she is a racing boat. If I can go around the world with my fat ketch almost not using the engine then I can get this C38 without motoring. We just came from costa rica to mexico, almost 2500 with almost constant light wind in our face, and we sailed the whole way. only motored the last couple days to get a crew member to the airport so he wouldn't miss his flight. Really sailing the C38 should be a breeze after sailing 40 000 miles on a 30 metric ton full keel boat.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

They are such a pretty boat (C38).....but all of what CD says and I will add you need a skinny midget to do any engine work. Yes they should sell well in Aus but at the moment nothing is selling, unless you willing to advertise and except a realistic price on the first occasion not try for a high price and adjust each month until you hit the market at that point in time. The market here is small and the real buyers are watching the good boats closely. Buying in the US a lower priced boat is still a lower priced boat in Aus. After importing the boat you may if you bought well break even, But only on a quick sale. Boat prices in general seem to have dropped across the board. A lot of the boats being imported are either being sold at the lower price due to the OS owner looking to fly home or a local getting and bringing home a boat to keep.

PS. not brokering atg he moment, going going gone cruising Aus N/E coast.


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

I agree that the more we look into the C38 the less she seem to be the boat we'll take across. Fortunatey there are other options. it was worth a shot anyway. 

Simon, I have some specific questions for you if you do not mind, regarding the importation of your boat to australia. I could ask the authorities but your input would probably be easier to get and much more reliable since you went through the process. If anybody else got some answers I'll be glad to get them a well of course.

First if you have already posted about that I would like to know where to find it, but otherwise here is what I'm wondering about:

The 10% GST is said to be over not only the purchase price of the boat, but also over the cost of transport, even if it came sailing. How did that work for you? What do they count and what do they disregard? If we just zoom across the pacific quickly and don't spend much, how do they calculate the price? At what point do you have to pay that GST? Can you pay for it from oversea, if you are not taking the boat to australia right away for example? That might save some money possibly. Once you get in australia the boat is already imported.

About registration, we'll have to register the boat and it will be simpler to get aussie papers right away. One of us is australian so we can get the papers to her name. So how did you do it? Did you have to wait until you had the boat in australia or were you able to do the paperwork before sailing? Is it possible to sail across with temporary papers so we can then sell the boat without actually registering her to our name?

Is there any australian regulation boats need to comply with that are different from what is in North America? Holding tank, safety equipment, antifouling paint active components, etc?

And finally, I would be very grateful if you could give me your opinion as to what would be the most likely kind of boat to sell fast in Australia. Because this will be a large investment for us, it is important that whatever boat we choose sells quickly. I'm looking at cruising sailboats in the 30 ft to 40 ft range. What kind of features and companies would be the most popular in Australia, what kind of designs, equipment, etc? 


Thanks

PS: Simon, if you are cruising the NE coast, you might know about Middle Percy island. My girlfriend grew up on that island, her dad was care taker when she was young. It seems to be one beautiful place. Have a good time cruising, and maybe we'll see you when we get there.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Importation cost seems to be open to interpretation, they wanted to work out the GST on the purchase price using the exchange rate at time of entry, after some discusion they did it from when I left my last OS port being Vanuatu. all other cost after that decision was agreed on from vanuatu (@$100) but they where only realy interested in the puchase price. 

Customs officers where all very helpful and friendly, expect a bit more indepth dotting of I's and Xing of T's in Brisbane as this is the major training area for new officers. Your attitude when dealing with Customs has a huge bearing on how pain free the requirements will be, Dont be an ass follow the rules and all is easy. They would prefure you stay at a marina once cleared in but attitude being everything will let you move around as long as you tell them your every movement whilst doing the imortation. 

The boat will need to be Australian registered before leaving I did mine via post and email very easy. You can get provisional Registration for a one off trip(cheaper) but the same amount of work.

Bendytoys are always a safe bet, as is the Islander 36.


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## KarakaII (Feb 24, 2011)

Very good, that is very helpful. 

I'll be happy to track you down to offer you a beer when I get to Australia.

Thanks a lot and happy sailing.


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## Momentous (Jun 3, 2011)

Considering I just happened upon this thread via a Google search...This is quite spooky to me that these two subjects came up in this thread... let me explain:

1. The Pros and cons of the S&S Catalina 38
2. The Article about The Aussi that went missing off of Virginia which is posted above by paulk...

JUST TWO MONTHS before I purchased a 1983 S&S Catalina 38... I was entertaining the idea of purchasing "Wapeter" (the very boat that the Aussi mentioned above went missing on!!!!!!!!) I am so glad I didn't buy that boat!!!! Scary stuff. Makes me sick to think I was on that boat not two months before he fell off of it in icy waters (IF in fact that is what happened!) ...And I gotta tell ya, after being on that boat twice and looking it over thoroughly, that guy was taking a risk making a trip like that on that boat... shewwwwww!


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## Catalina38SS (Jan 30, 2008)

*Catalina 38 Pros and Cons*

As a Catalina 38 owner let me add my two cents worth. This last season with a crew of six we won our class in the Oregon Offshore, downwind for 200 miles in 20-25 knots, then we won the Coastal Cup from San Francisco to Catalina seeing 35 down wind the first night and 25 the second night, we entered Transpac and were in the lead for the first five days before having to drop out due to water maker issues, on the return trip we saw 25 knots the whole way with big ocean seas. It was one of the most enjoyable three days of sailing I have ever had. As on any race boat when you do a sail change it is prudent to have all hands on deck regardless of the design. Just this last weekend I brought the boat home in 40 knots with one other person, a double reefed main and a #3 and we had a blast for the eight hours we were sailing. Yes downwind she rolls but who is driving down wind? crack off your angle, follow her polars and she becomes a stable platform. Get some Asyms if your uncomfortable with symetric chutes and its that much easier. Even easier is to go with a poled out jibe, we did that too and in 25 knots maintained hull speed throughout the night in big confused seas with very little effort. We do have a new high aspect rudder that adds an additional six inches of depth and that makes a nice difference. Going into the wind if you have done your job correctly and distributed your weight like you should then the bow stays out of the water and she powers through the waves. load up the bow and the vee berth and your taking on blue water. As far as the light wind comments again as with any boat the proper sail plan makes the difference, we have a Light #1 for up to 12 knots and a heavy number one for above, the heavy one is a dog in light air, maybe thats why they call it a heavy #1. She is nimble and tender and does require you to pay attention, but thats the fun of the boat, who wants to sleep at the helm and let the boat drive itself?

Just this month in Cruising World Lin Pardey picked the Catalina 38 as the first boat he would look at when looking for an entry level offshore cruiser, citing its price, seaworthiness and pedigree. I had a delivery skipper with over 200,000 miles under his keel deliver the boat up the coast from LA to Washington, he loved the boat and was actually very impressed with its performance at the usual unhappy points such as Pt. Conception, Pt. Blanco and the Columbia Bar (there is a reason they call it the graveyard of the pacific, and the Cape of the west)

Yes there are lots of other boats that are easier to sail, perform better in different situations but I challenge you to find one for 20-30K in the 38 foot range that is as capable of an offshore cruiser/racer as the Catalina 38.


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## hrt (Jul 20, 2008)

Hello JH,

I know the thread is old but I have just read it, and was at least as angry as you that KrakauII felt that this site should accommodate his panhandling and bludging (old Australian word for a taker/mendicant) under the camouflage of advice seeking. 

That said, I was impressed beyond measure at what you wrote about the Catalina 38's design, and its less than desirable sailing qualities when applied to a cruising situation. FWIW, I sailed a 38' Beneteau Idylle solo from Alameda to Australia a while back and am considering doing it again - but in a different yacht. 

Downwind, the Idylle would start rolling which gradually increased in amplitude until there was a bang, whereupon the yacht would remain steady for a while and then start rolling again. I never sorted it out, but readily admit that may have been my fault. Likewise, the bulkheads creaked and this damn near drove me crazy until I poured vegetable oil into the joints.

The 38 was a contender for the next trip but based on your comments, I have now ruled it out along with other IOR influenced yachts.

In any case, I note there has been some hand wringing over the 38's water capacity but surely, this problem is readily overcome by carrying bottles of water and storing same under the settees etc. Indeed, is this not a sensible thing to do anyway bearing in mind that the contents of a 100 gallon tank are not available if the pump quits?

Thank you for your sensible writings.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Thank you HRT for the kind words on this is an old thread. In terms of carrying water in separate containers for long distance passages, I think it is a good idea to break up the water supply into multiple tanks with backflow preventers between them to avoid cross contamination should one tank go bad. In terms of temproary tanks, they need to be tied down incase of roll over, and they occupy critical storage space.



zedboy said:


> Jeff here is a big advocate of "modern" hullforms, by which I assume he means flat-bottomed, hard-chined, deep high-aspect ratio keel - like this TP 52 (or Open 60, Volvo 70, etc)....


Actually, I am not a fan of any of the above. I was a fan of the cruising designs which evolved from the early IMS and Volvo 60 hull forms. These boats were modeled to be fast for they day, and which produced boats which were easy to handle and had comfortable motions.

The racing world has moved onto designs which are wildly faster than the boats which I am a fan of, but that speed came at a price I do not think should be paid in a cruising design in terms of needing to operate in a narror range of heel angles for the wind condition, a lack of forgivingness, motion comfort and tracking ability.

While the basis of my comments are often misunderstood, my personal taste is towards boats that are easily handled and sail well across a broad range of conditions. I generally do not like the excesses in hull form and rig which occur when the racing rules distort a design away from what is the best yacht design principles of the era when seen in the absense of a rule, or of the demands of the race course. This dislike also applies to the more extreme designs at either the light or heavy end of the length/displacement.

It is for that collection of reasons, that I don't like boats that come from the more exterme eras of CCA, IOR, Volvo 70, and Open class rules any more than I like boats that are caricatures of 19th century work boats. The result of this personal like or dislike, is that given the choice of boats that I personally would buy, or recommend to others, I generally try to recommend moderate designs intended for the proposed purpose.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Just found this old thread and I have a question for *JeffH*.

I've noticed in your criticisms of IOR boats that you make no distinction between the first generation IOR I boats, like the Yankee/Cat 38 and the later boats from IOR 111 and 111A. They both have the big foretriangle and small stern but the later boats (post Ganbare) have quite different hull shapes - flat bottoms, no or little rocker, no or little deadrise, low initial stability, high CG etc.

These later boats were the ones that suffered all the maladies you complain of re: handling and seaworthiness while the earlier ones like the Cat 38, Swan 38, Hughes 38 etc. seem to do much better in that regard, albeit a little more slowly.

Do you in fact see the two generations of IOR design differently or do you see them all with the same jaundiced eye?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I of course understand that each generation of the IOR rule produced very different boats, and within each generation, there were better and worse designs. I generally do not like IOR era boats because of the compromises in design that each version of the rule imparted into each version of the type form. 

From my perspective, I have spent a lot of time on boats from all three eras and owned boats from two of the IOR iterations. While my issues with each generation differ just as the IOR rule and the type forms differ, in a broad general sense, I see IOR era boats as being seriously compromised from a pure design standpoint as compared to boats which were designed without consideration of a rule. It is my belief that while the nature of the compromises differed over the lifespan of the IOR rule, these compromises seriously diminish the seaworthiness, motion comfort, ease of handling, and overall sailing ability across a broad range of conditions. For what it is worth, I believe this is not only true of the IOR rule, but it is also true of most measurement style racing rules such as the earlier Universal, International, RORC and CCA rules or current IRC and Volvo 70 rules 

To explain why I believe this, I compared boats designed to a rule of a particular era to boats designed without attention to a race rule. Boats like the Galaxy 32 to the Vanguard or Luders 33, boats like the Cal 2-29 or Tartan 27 (loosely MORC) to boats like the Triton or Alberg 30, or boats like the Express 37, or J-35/36, and compare them to similar era boats like Heritage one ton, or Genbare, or Tartan 41. In each case the boats designed free of the rule were all around better boats when seen through the metrics of seaworthiness, motion comfort, ease of handling, and overall performance across a broad range of conditions. 

So while you may see this as a jaundiced eye, I see this as having a clear preference for boats from any era which excell in terms of seaworthiness, motion comfort, ease of handling, and overall performance across a broad range of conditions. 

Respectfully,
Jeff

p.s. To address the IOR 1 comment, I have spent a lot of time on IOR 1 boats like the Cat 38, Swan 38, Hughes 38 and owned a Hughes Northstar of that era. While it is true that these were somewhat better boats than the IOR III era, they were not a well rounded as the IOR II boats and frankly were very hard boats to sail with a small crew. Somehow people forget how miserable the motion was on these boats, and with their tumblehome, how they would very suddenly get to a point of heel where they would wipe out and round up or death roll. The lack of tactilely obviously defined increase in stability, meant that you would progressively heel and suddenly go from being able to steer easily, to not being able to steer at all. I personally have death rolled quite a few of these old girl and without a large crew who were doing skilled crew work we could have easily lost those boats. That does not speak well for an ideal distance cruiser in my mind.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jeff_H said:


> p.s. To address the IOR 1 comment, I have spent a lot of time on IOR 1 boats like the Cat 38, Swan 38, Hughes 38 and owned a Hughes Northstar of that era. While it is true that these were somewhat better boats than the IOR III era, they were not a well rounded as the IOR II boats and frankly were very hard boats to sail with a small crew. .


I understood there was no IOR II - it was drawn up but superceded by III before it was ever implemented.

Can you give some examples of boats you regard as IOR II designs?


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

There was... If I recall, Farr design #51(?) is a good example of a MkII one tonner. A fractional rig and a wider transom.


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## SloopDogg (Mar 4, 2010)

I know this is a ridiculously old thread but, I' seriously considering a Catalina 38 for our next boat. We're coming out of a 1973 Viking 33 which is a similar design. 

Jeff H, after reading all your observations I'm reconsidering. You mention other more appropriate designs for a shorthanded crew. We mostly just day sail or weekend maybe a week here and there with just the wife and I in and around the Buzzards bay and the islands around mass and rhode island.

Could you recommend some more appropriate boats I should be considering?

I've looked at Tartan 40s & 37s, Sabre 38s and a 425. The wife would love a newer Jeanneau but I'm not real impressed with the build quality or the hard chine. They kind of remind me a of a planing boat design with a knife sticking out of the bottom and I'm not convinced thats the best for comfortable sailing in 6 footers in 25 knots of wind. The viking ws a blast in that stuff!

Anyway, I look forward to any suggestions, comments and observations.

Danny


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