# Ontario runs out of rattlesnake anti-venom



## Diva27 (Nov 2, 2007)

Rattlesnakes are a fact of life on Georgian Bay in the Great Lakes. I came within two feet of stepping on a massasauga rattler last Thursday on Beausoleil I. in Georgian Bay Islands Natl Park while walking on a park trail after anchoring in Chimney Bay. Now comes news that the province is completely out of snake anti-venom. It's even news in Vancouver. Metro - Anti-venom crisis in Ontario
The story explains the crisis and the health-care politics behind it. Bottom line is that there's enough venom in a massasauga to kill a small child, and kids are often the ones to get bitten. (if your dog gets bitten, forget about antivenom treatment. It costs tens of thousands of dollars per treatment.) As for the rest of us, the pain is powerful enough to defeat morphine. The female massasaugas are pregnant and moving around a lot more right now. If you're going ashore, mind where you're stepping.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

[email protected]! Can you go to the US? Is there any more available at the US?

- CD


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Makes all the rain in the PNW worth putting up with...No poisonous Snakes...So be careful would ya!


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## Diva27 (Nov 2, 2007)

I haven't read or heard any official word yet from the province's ministry of health about what it plans to do about this serious issue. A child could literally die in Ontario vacation country before the summer is out. Of course we also ran out of medical isotopes when the Chalk River reactor was shut down, so we seem to be a little weak on longterm planning. The West Parry Sound district health centre has been warning about a potential shortage for weeks now. You need to be very careful when going ashore in the wilder areas of Georgian Bay right now, especially with kids. Dogs should not be scampering around off leash at any time in places where the snakes are common. There was a bitten dog rushed into my vet's just the other day. Other than dousing the poor beast with Benadryl, I'm not sure what else they did for it, or if it survived. (Larger dogs apparently shake off these bites regularly.)
I have an info page on my cruising website about massasaugas, with links to further info. They're not unique to Ontario in the Great Lakes. Michigan I know has them, especially on Bois Blanc Island.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Diva27 said:


> They're not unique to Ontario in the Great Lakes. Michigan I know has them, especially on Bois Blanc Island.


Indeed Michigan does. Despite the fact that the Michigan DNR and wildlife groups claim the Eastern Massasauga is in sharp decline, they have been spotted in open fields, particularly near swampy areas, in our semi-rural neighbourhood in S.E. Michigan in years past.

Personally, I make sure to make ample noise and I listen carefully when walking through or near wilderness areas, incl. those in our own back yard. It is my understanding that, unless you run up on them suddenly, Massasaugas will give you ample warning before striking. In fact: Unless they're defending young or perceive you as a predator, they will usually attempt to escape, rather than attack.

Jim


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## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

Stillraining said:


> Makes all the rain in the PNW worth putting up with...No poisonous Snakes...So be careful would ya!


There's rattlesnakes all over the PNW, it's just rare to see one. Growing up in Oregon and spending most of my time outdoors I only saw one once.


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## Diva27 (Nov 2, 2007)

They're absolutely not going to attack, as you say. They try to hide, and avoid even rattling. The one I almost stepped made a small raspy rattle and was heading in the opposite direction. I was coming into a clear area of bare rock in mid-afternoon and it had probably been sunning itself. Park staff will try to move snakes if they're too close to designated camping areas, but otherwise you're just supposed to give them a wide berth.
I wrote a freelance article about massasaugas a few years ago. I was told that a lot of bites are due to drunken young men mandhandling them to impress their friends, who then claim they were "attacked." A lot of other bites occur around dusk, when somebody is walking on a path and just doesn't see it and steps on it. My biggest concern always is doing just that. Making lots of noise (stomp your feet a bit to make ground vibrations) seems to help.
In more than a dozen years of cruising Georgian Bay, the only other one I have positively seen (they look a lot like fox snakes in coloration) was on an island in Norgate inlet, along a path at a cottage. The snake was curled up under the low branch of a pine tree, and made a warning buzz. But they can also rattle like dry leaves, which is what I heard last week.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I honestly did not realise that rattlers were that far up north. I would have thought the cold weather would kill them.Down here, though, they are as common as trees. Of course, we have even worse things, like Black Widows (I kill at least one a week on my property), moccasins (which scare me more than rattlers and are very aggressive, unlike a rattler), copperheads (BUNCH OF THESE, but not real poisonous unless to a child and they are like a rattler in that they keep to themselves), and coral snakes (I have never seen one but have been told they are prominent here). Get bit by a coral, and you got just enough time to tell the family you love 'em and apologize to the good Lord about being busy last Sunday!!! We also have (at least on my property) lots of coyotes & wild boars. We have to weed out the boars every once in a while because they are aggresive little dudes.

I wonder if you got bit, if you could rush some in from the US? Is there a decent stock pile in the US? I would think the further south you get, the more the stock pile would be. How long until you have to have the anti-venom?

I also wonder if it isn't time for a little rattlesnake roundup? It tastes like chicken, you know. Get a group of hunters out there and they can thin out the population enough that you will really minimize the need for anti-venom. We certainly have the expertise for that down in Texas.

- CD


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## Diva27 (Nov 2, 2007)

Stillraining said:


> Makes all the rain in the PNW worth putting up with...No poisonous Snakes...So be careful would ya!


Yeah, but at least we don't have grizzly bears. Only black bears that are so adorably cute and cuddly that you can load a couple in your dinghy, take 'em home, and start a circus in your back yard. Okay, maybe not.


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## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

Cruisingdad said:


> I honestly did not realise that rattlers were that far up north. I would have thought the cold weather would kill them.Down here, though, they are as common as trees. Of course, we have even worse things, like Black Widows (I kill at least one a week on my property)


Actually, there's also black widows all over the pacific northwest- even up into Canada. Like Rattlesnakes, they're a lot less common up there than in the Southwest. It's a common misconception that the PNW is cold and rainy- most of Oregon, Washingtion, and Idaho are desert, except the narrow strip along the coast where most of the people live.

Black widow range:









Rattlesnakes in washington:









Edit:

Fear of rattlesnakes and black widows goes way too far. Neither will hurt you unless you harass them and put them in a situation where they can't escape. My garage where I work on my car probably has 20 black widows in it, and I leave them alone and they leave me alone. No problem!


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## Diva27 (Nov 2, 2007)

Cruisingdad said:


> I honestly did not realise that rattlers were that far up north. I would have thought the cold weather would kill them.Down here, though, they are as common as trees. Of course, we have even worse things, like Black Widows (I kill at least one a week on my property), moccasins (which scare me more than rattlers and are very aggressive, unlike a rattler), copperheads (BUNCH OF THESE, but not real poisonous unless to a child and they are like a rattler in that they keep to themselves), and coral snakes (I have never seen one but have been told they are prominent here). Get bit by a coral, and you got just enough time to tell the family you love 'em and apologize to the good Lord about being busy last Sunday!!! We also have (at least on my property) lots of coyotes & wild boars. We have to weed out the boars every once in a while because they are aggresive little dudes.
> 
> I wonder if you got bit, if you could rush some in from the US? Is there a decent stock pile in the US? I would think the further south you get, the more the stock pile would be. How long until you have to have the anti-venom?
> 
> ...


We have black widow spiders, too, some even on Beausoleil I., though I've never seen one. I didn't even know that until about two weeks ago.
The winter doesn't kill the snakes. They just hibernate.
The massasauga is a protected species in Ontario, and killing them carries a hefty fine. I'm not too paranoid about them, it's not like they're diamondbacks or other potent venomous snakes that really can kill people. Only small children are considered vulnerable. There was a little girl bitten at a cottage a couple years ago who was a little touch and go blood pressure wise and I believe had to have a second round of antivenom. I'm just not happy knowing there isn't antivenom in the province right now. Massasaugas are pretty common in the eastern US, and so hopefully in an emergency stuff can be flown up, but time is always of the essence, especially where kids are concerned.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

casioqv said:


> Actually, there's also black widows all over the pacific northwest- even up into Canada. Like Rattlesnakes, they're a lot less common up there than in the Southwest. It's a common misconception that the PNW is cold and rainy- most of Oregon, Washingtion, and Idaho are desert, except the narrow strip along the coast where most of the people live.
> 
> Black widow range:
> 
> ...


Rattlesnakes, yes. Black Widows, no. THey will not actively seek you out. You are a threat to them. But they also go into a frenzy sometimes. I also forgot to mention Brown Recluse in my thread (which are also very common down here). But Brown Recluse and Widow's like to come out at night and explore. They like to live close to people and seek warmth (or cool). THey are predominant in the summer months and pretty much dissapear in the winter unless they find a place inside. Black widows, especially, like dark places during the day. Their favorite areas are shoes, the underground things where you turn off your water, crevices under floor boards, behind and under furniture, etc. They also go exploring during the night and will likely not be in their "homes". They chase down their prey - perhaps one of the reasons that they are more aggressive than most spiders. The web widow's spin is NOT for catching food, it is for protection from enemies (like dirt daubers). And they WILL bite if they feel threatened - like you sticking your foot in a shoe, going after a tool close to their nest or where they are, a child reaching under their dresser to get a toy, etc. I consider a black widow and a recluse one of the most dangerous things on our land - and certainly more dangerous than a rattler or copperhead. Moccassins are also aggressive and will come after you if you are near their nest or in the water where they are territorial. That is another critter we actively exterminate on our property because the risks are too great.

BTW, if you see 1 black widow, you got two. Two, then four. Four, eight... etc. So keep that in mind and also remember they are not generally excited about being in the open where they can be seen. They are probably in the open because there is no room for them where they can not be seen.

I am no spider expert, but we have to be very conscious of them where we live because they are very frequent. We do our best to exterminate them. Allowing them to stay as guests, in my opinion, is risky - especially if you have kids. Their bite is much worse than a copperhead and can kill a child or an elderly person. It won't do an adult any good either.

My opinions,

- CD


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Diva27 said:


> We have black widow spiders, too, some even on Beausoleil I., though I've never seen one. I didn't even know that until about two weeks ago.
> The winter doesn't kill them. They just hibernate.
> The massasauga is a protected species in Ontario, and killing them carries a hefty fine. I'm not too paranoid about them, it's not like they're diamondbacks or other potent venomous snakes that really can kill people. Only small children are considered vulnerable. There was a little girl bitten at a cottage a couple years who was a little touch and go blood pressure wise and I believe had to have a second round of antivenom. I'm just not happy knowing there isn't antivenom in the province right now. Massasaugas are pretty common in the eastern US, and so hopefully in an emergency stuff can be flown up, but time is always of the essence, especially where kids are concerned.


Our sidewinders aren't as coloful as yours. THey are a lighter brown. But, they are generally not aggressive either. At least, I have never known one to be. The only aggressive snake I am aware of is the Moccassin. I also did not know that the diamondback's venom was worse than a massasaugas. I assumed it was all the same. But again, I am no expert.

As far as the protected species, I guess I am of the opinion that you still have to manage the population... like florida with Gators. Now there is another creature you have to keep your eyes open for. We used to live in S Florida and they can be nasty little buggers. Florida also has rattlers and probably every other snake we have in Texas. You guys got it easy!

- CD


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## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

Cruisingdad said:


> Allowing them to stay as guests, in my opinion, is risky - especially if you have kids


I've gotta say, it really annoys me when people kill snakes and spiders on "their" land because they're afraid of them- when they're not really dangerous UNLESS you do stupid stuff around them like trying to kill them. For one, if there's enough that you see them all the time, no matter how many you kill you probably won't make a sizeable dent in the population. Also, they have just as much right to live there as you do- and they play an important role in the ecosystem that makes the place suitable for you to live in. For example- if you did kill them all, perhaps it would let something more poisonous move in and take its place? Or kill off something else that's important, and depends on it?

I understand that people have a natural fear of snakes and spiders- probably an evolutionary response to help us avoid them since they can be dangerous. But I think that fear is best used to develop a healthy respect for them and to leave them alone. In addition teaching your kids to do the same will go a lot further towards keeping them safe than anything else.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

casioqv said:


> I've gotta say, it really annoys me when people kill snakes and spiders on "their" land because they're afraid of them- when they're not really dangerous UNLESS you do stupid stuff around them like trying to kill them. For one, if there's enough that you see them all the time, no matter how many you kill you probably won't make a sizeable dent in the population. Also, they have just as much right to live there as you do- and they play an important role in the ecosystem that makes the place suitable for you to live in. For example- if you did kill them all, perhaps it would let something more poisonous move in and take its place? Or kill off something else that's important, and depends on it?
> 
> I understand that people have a natural fear of snakes and spiders- probably an evolutionary response to help us avoid them since they can be dangerous. But I think that fear is best used to develop a healthy respect for them and to leave them alone. In addition teaching your kids to do the same will go a lot further towards keeping them safe than anything else.


Sorry to offend - but no spiders in the house or outside of the house. What they do out on the land is their problem. But I am not gong to risk my kids being bitten and possibly killed or very maimed because they want a place to set up shop. Ever seen what a Brown Recluse does to someones skin? I have. My sister inlaw was bit, as have othters I have seen. It is not pretty.

Now what they do out on the land is their business but I have every right to kill them and will kill them - especially if I feel threatened by them. Just like they will bite me when they feel threatened. And if the rattlesnakes become a problem, we thin them out. Moccasins are aggressive and I cannot have them in the watering holes for cattle and certainly not where my kids go. Water moccasins I will go out hunting for because they are nto the timid little snakes that generally avoid people. Rattlers, not so much because they avoid the area where we keep our house. But if they are caught inside that area, I will kill them. Same with coyotes and boars. If they come into that area, it is because they are being over crowded in other areas.

MY land. My house. My rules. In fact, it is that way for everyone out where I live. If you want to live with black widows in your house, that is up to you. First time you get bit, you will chagne your mind. If a child is bit on your property and dies, how would you feel about that? THEY WILL BITE. Live with them long enough and you will eventually be bitten.

But hey... your house and your rules. Whatever floats your boat. But my house and boat are a snake free/insect free zone.

- CD


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## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

Cruisingdad said:


> If you want to live with black widows in your house, that is up to you.


I can understand keeping them out of your house, I do also. I was just taking in general about people who I've seen who own a lot of land, and go on a rampage trying to kill every snake and spider on it- which I think is counter-productive, dangerous, and ignorant at best. This doesn't sound like what you're doing at all, and I'm sorry if I implied that you were.

I was just thinking about out where my parents live in rural Idaho, communities get together in "angry mobs" and try to eradicate entire species- usually wolves or rattlesnakes from the entire area- without them having hurt anything. The "beasts" they are so scared of and trying to eradicate never existed- they're a cultural myth that have virtually nothing in common with the animals they're killing, which are certainly a heck of a lot less dangerous than their human neighbors running around with weapons trying to "save the community" from some imaginary threat. I grew up in the country, and have always been fascinated by wolves, coyotes, spiders, and snakes- and have never found them dangerous or aggressive unless they're trying to defend themselves from some idiot killing them out of ignorant fear.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

casioqv said:


> I can understand keeping them out of your house, I do also. I was just taking in general about people who I've seen who own a lot of land, and go on a rampage trying to kill every snake and spider on it- which I think is counter-productive, dangerous, and ignorant at best. This doesn't sound like what you're doing at all, and I'm sorry if I implied that you were.
> 
> I was just thinking about out where my parents live in rural Idaho, communities get together in "angry mobs" and try to eradicate entire species- usually wolves or rattlesnakes from the entire area- without them having hurt anything. The "beasts" they are so scared of and trying to eradicate never existed- they're a cultural myth that have virtually nothing in common with the animals they're killing, which are certainly a heck of a lot less dangerous than their human neighbors running around with weapons trying to "save the community" from some imaginary threat. I grew up in the country, and have always been fascinated by wolves, coyotes, spiders, and snakes- and have never found them dangerous or aggressive unless they're trying to defend themselves from some idiot killing them out of ignorant fear.


I understand what you are saying and no, we are not like that. No one around is like what you describe. I wonder how the heck they could even find the time to go on a killing spree??? Most of these animals have a function and most are not dangerous. I would have a problem with wolves though as we have cattle and horses on the property.

But I want to give you another side to consider. It is something that has always bothered me about people in the city that are critical of the country and how we do things.

How many spiders or coyotes or snakes do you think your mob wiped out? Let's get really unrealistic and pretend it was half the entire population. I think that is very unrealistic as it would likely be vastly less, but that is ok.

Now, answer me, how many spiders and snakes and wolves and almost everyo other creature that inhabits this earth have YOU wiped about with your housing develpment after housing development, streets, highways, commercial buildings, parking lots, malls, chain stores, etc. And unlike the population above in the rural country, yours is (or will be) 100% complete and permanenet eradication of the species in your area. They ain't coming back. There is nothing for them to live on if they did. You wiped out their homes and their food sources. Planting "tree-for-tree" in some little wildlife preserve surrounded in concrete will not make up for it. Now ours might be intentional, but we live in harmony with the environment. We grow the food you eat. We watch how and where we tend our cattle or our gardens. We are shepperds.

Are you? A city cannot support itself and we can. We live within our environment and support yours. Now, who is the more compassionate and who is the most ruthless?

I am not picking on you, either. I believe your heart is in the right place and we pretty much agree. I just want you to see the hypocricy of your statement. It like when people tell me they are animal rights and vegetarians and have leather shoes on. Or when people squrim when we clean a deer or clean birds and consider us ruthless... yet they buy chickens and ground beef at the grocery store. If people had any idea what happened in those processing plants or the conditions in which those animals were raised, they would think we were saints and part of PETA.

I am not in any way trying to offend you, just some thougths to consider and my opinions.

- CD


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## M275sailer (Aug 29, 2008)

Well said CD. Most people don't realize they are in a glass houses before they start chucking rocks.


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## surftom (Sep 19, 2006)

Well... We put ashore in Turtle Bay on the NW side of Beausoleil a few weeks ago and ran into 3 of the Massasauga Rattlers.
Between them and the mosquitoes we didn't feel very welcome. 
Now with word of the shortage we're going to skip going ashore for a while (we have 2 kids and a dog)
Tom


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## Diva27 (Nov 2, 2007)

Cruisingdad said:


> Our sidewinders aren't as coloful as yours. THey are a lighter brown. But, they are generally not aggressive either. At least, I have never known one to be. The only aggressive snake I am aware of is the Moccassin. I also did not know that the diamondback's venom was worse than a massasaugas. I assumed it was all the same. But again, I am no expert.
> 
> As far as the protected species, I guess I am of the opinion that you still have to manage the population... like florida with Gators. Now there is another creature you have to keep your eyes open for. We used to live in S Florida and they can be nasty little buggers. Florida also has rattlers and probably every other snake we have in Texas. You guys got it easy!
> 
> - CD


Yes, we have yet to lose a poodle to a gator on a golf course, and so far we've managed to avoid having pythons.
The coloration varies on the massasauga. It's background color is often a light grey, but the one I saw last week was was a buttery yellow and at first glance I thought it was a fox snake. The rattle and triangular head set me to rights. 
Massasauga venom may well be as toxic as a diamondback (herpetologists, help me out here), but the snakes are much smaller and so the envenomation with their bite is also small and so not as deadly to humans. And something like 1 in 4 or 5 bites doesn't even deliver venom. What has always stuck with me is the advice that the bite is so intensely painful that sometimes not even morphine can beat it back. Experts advise people to wear boots, sock and long pants as a bite deterrent. So far their numbers are low enough that we don't have to do any culling, beyond the culling that already made them scarce in the first place.


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## Diva27 (Nov 2, 2007)

surftom said:


> Well... We put ashore in Turtle Bay on the NW side of Beausoleil a few weeks ago and ran into 3 of the Massasauga Rattlers.
> Between them and the mosquitoes we didn't feel very welcome.
> Now with word of the shortage we're going to skip going ashore for a while (we have 2 kids and a dog)
> Tom


What, the deer flies on Beausoleil didn't drive you away first?


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## gulftex (Mar 8, 2008)

*snakes and spiders*

Scares me,I think I'll buy some snake leggins.


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## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

Cruisingdad said:


> Now, answer me, how many spiders and snakes and wolves and almost everyo other creature that inhabits this earth have YOU wiped about with your housing development after housing development, streets, highways, commercial buildings, parking lots, malls, chain stores, etc. And unlike the population above in the rural country, yours is (or will be) 100% complete and permanent eradication of the species in your area. They ain't coming back. There is nothing for them to live on if they did. You wiped out their homes and their food sources. Planting "tree-for-tree" in some little wildlife preserve surrounded in concrete will not make up for it. Now ours might be intentional, but we live in harmony with the environment. We grow the food you eat. We watch how and where we tend our cattle or our gardens. We are shepperds.
> 
> Are you? A city cannot support itself and we can. We live within our environment and support yours. Now, who is the more compassionate and who is the most ruthless?


CD, I agree with you 100%. I grew up in the country, and live in the city now, but want to move back ASAP once my wife is done going to school here. I can't stand the city here in Southern California. For example- they've run most of the family farmers around the state out of business by depriving them of water just so they can over-water their lawns here and pretend they don't live in a desert. We live in a smoggy post-apocalyptic wasteland, and people think they're environmentalists because they drive a prius 200 miles each day, drink organic lattes, and send money to organizations that harass the loggers whom cut the trees used to make the paper cups their organic lattes are served in.

All of our resources come from our natural environment, and there's nothing wrong with using them as long as we do so in a manner that isn't wiping them out permanently. I am a big fan of the "deep ecology" philosophy of environmentalism, which sees us as members of a community from which we depend on to survive. We have the right to use it for survival, and the responsibility to treat it with respect and use it sustainably. Farmers, most indigenous people, and anyone else that lives off the land is generally already practicing deep ecology- they understand very much that if they abuse the resources they depend on, then they're destroying their own livelihood. What you're talking about is "shallow ecology" as practiced by Greenpeace, etc. where people choose some cute fuzzy animal to "protect" or something, and ignore the bigger picture and their overall relationship with the rest of the world.

Unfortunately, we seem to have two extreme philosophies- those with a manifest destiny philosophy that nature is meant to be destroyed for profit, and those with a fantasy that nature is independent of people and should be left alone. Neither is reasonable- and both sets of people actually have a common interest that they don't realize. They both depend on the same responsible use of natural resources for survival. Right now, we are using many of our resources in a manner that will wipe them out permanently, and neither group understands this or is doing anything productive to stop it.

Both the mobs I was talking about, and the urban environmentalists you are talking about suffer from the same mis-conception about their relationship to the rest of the world, but are acting it out in different ways.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

casioqv said:


> CD, I agree with you 100%. I grew up in the country, and live in the city now, but want to move back ASAP once my wife is done going to school here. I can't stand the city here in Southern California. For example- they've run most of the family farmers around the state out of business by depriving them of water just so they can over-water their lawns here and pretend they don't live in a desert. We live in a smoggy post-apocalyptic wasteland, and people think they're environmentalists because they drive a prius 200 miles each day, drink organic lattes, and send money to organizations that harass the loggers whom cut the trees used to make the paper cups their organic lattes are served in.
> 
> All of our resources come from our natural environment, and there's nothing wrong with using them as long as we do so in a manner that isn't wiping them out permanently. I am a big fan of the "deep ecology" philosophy of environmentalism, which sees us as members of a community from which we depend on to survive. We have the right to use it for survival, and the responsibility to treat it with respect and use it sustainably. Farmers, most indigenous people, and anyone else that lives off the land is generally already practicing deep ecology- they understand very much that if they abuse the resources they depend on, then they're destroying their own livelihood. What you're talking about is "shallow ecology" as practiced by Greenpeace, etc. where people choose some cute fuzzy animal to "protect" or something, and ignore the bigger picture and their overall relationship with the rest of the world.
> 
> ...


That is a darned good post and we would get along well. Ditto. Keep that attitude, and you and your wife will do well in this world - maybe not rich, but at peace.

Incidentally, if you want to know how the world "should work" - go get PADI and dive the reefs. That is where you will see fish swimming right beside you as you are a part of their environment. Sharks could care less about you. Groupers hide in the ledges and even the lobsters don't run away (unless you get close). Dolphin having fun with you and other fish I cannot even begin to guess the names of. It is surreal. Everything working in balance and everything depending on the other. And then you will see an old tire someone threw out on the reef to make an "artificial reef" and help the environment out. It is empty and banging up all the coral. I think that is a nice little snapshot of our world and what we do, inadvertently sometimes, not understanding that we are not helping. They are now retrieving the tire reefs, but you will still see idiots throwing all kinds of stuff over board. Plastic bags, especially, is my pet peeve (being a ex-Floridian) as the turtles (who eat the jelly fish that can seriously harm us... hint, hint) eat the bags and die. Then you have the municipalities that demand that you do not dump even your treated Cat I MSD in their bays but get pumped out. They then turn around and dump it in the bay not nearly as treated as your waste would have been!?? Unbelieveable. But that is the world and the only way you can change it is if you care to change it. SO keep up with your ideals and make a difference. Most people don't bother.

All the best,

Brian


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## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

Cruisingdad said:


> That is a darned good post and we would get along well.


I think we would get along well also. I am a scuba diver also, but haven't gone in over 3 years! My parents are visiting next month, and I'm looking forward to sailing with my dad out to Catalina Island in my "new" 1974 C22, and diving with him. He's a NAUI dive master, and certified me when I was 11- but he doesn't get to dive much anymore either living in Idaho. I've never dove off a sailboat before, but I'm thinking the low to the water self bailing cockpit, and strong stainless swim ladder should make it a nice boat to dive off.

Do you dive off the gulf coast? That sounds amazing! The last time I went diving was in that area (northern Yucatan) but unfortunately there wasn't much to see, since Hurricane Wilma had just passed through.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

casioqv said:


> I think we would get along well also. I am a scuba diver also, but haven't gone in over 3 years! My parents are visiting next month, and I'm looking forward to sailing with my dad out to Catalina Island in my "new" 1974 C22, and diving with him. He's a NAUI dive master, and certified me when I was 11- but he doesn't get to dive much anymore either living in Idaho. I've never dove off a sailboat before, but I'm thinking the low to the water self bailing cockpit, and strong stainless swim ladder should make it a nice boat to dive off.
> 
> Do you dive off the gulf coast? That sounds amazing! The last time I went diving was in that area (northern Yucatan) but unfortunately there wasn't much to see, since Hurricane Wilma had just passed through.


I have sailed to Catalina Island - neat place. I remember seeing a group of people going scuba diving there with cameras. They said they were shooting a documentary. They were in full suits. The water splashed on me and my skin froze and felt like it fell of the bone. I thought to myself: You guys are going diving in that? Are you CRAZY!??

If I have to wear more than my half suit, I don't go in!!! Probably the most beautiful area I have been is the Dry Tortugas. It is about 61 miles west of Key West. It is awesome, no exhageration. We saw everything, including a tiger shark go under us. There is this wrecked wooden boat about a mile south of loggerhead (I think) where half the boat is split open and you can dive inside it. The mast of the ship is still barely sticking above the water. The water quality was better than anything I have ever seen and the marine life was the same. Second best might be Jamaica - but it felt a little touristy. The only way to get to the Tortugas is boat or sea plane (and no cruise ships... I mena it is remote). It is one of my favorite places.

Brian


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## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

Cruisingdad said:


> I have sailed to Catalina Island - neat place. I remember seeing a group of people going scuba diving there with cameras. They said they were shooting a documentary. They were in full suits. The water splashed on me and my skin froze and felt like it fell of the bone. I thought to myself: You guys are going diving in that? Are you CRAZY!??


That's funny, since I recently moved down here from the Pacific NorthWest, I can't beleive how warm the water here is in comparison. I've dove in the winter in the puget sound, and had to cut my dive short because my limbs were numb from the cold in an extra thick wetsuit. Here you can dive with just a shorty wetsuit!

I think the water temp around Catalina varies, but I sailed over there a few months ago crewing on a C25, and the water (on the surface at least) was warm enough to swim in all day long without a wetsuit once I got used to it.

I'd love to cruise the Carribean someday, but I think I'd have to get a slightly bigger boat!


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Cruisingdad said:


> I also wonder if it isn't time for a little rattlesnake roundup? It tastes like chicken, you know. Get a group of hunters out there and they can thin out the population enough that you will really minimize the need for anti-venom.


The Eastern Massasauga population is said to be in decline, and is an endangered/protected species in some areas.

Jim


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## patrickrea (Aug 20, 2007)

I had a Massassauga rattler at the cottage last summer. As we are only 2 islands over from Beausoleil (Starr's Island), I thought I would trap it and return it to its home. The park wardens caught me and threatened to call the OPP on me for disturbing the little bastard.

I call them little bastards as my brother almost lost a leg to one up near Parry Sound (Camp Hurontario). The anti-venom doesn't work all that well.


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## Diva27 (Nov 2, 2007)

patrickrea said:


> I had a Massassauga rattler at the cottage last summer. As we are only 2 islands over from Beausoleil (Starr's Island), I thought I would trap it and return it to its home. The park wardens caught me and threatened to call the OPP on me for disturbing the little bastard.
> 
> I call them little bastards as my brother almost lost a leg to one up near Parry Sound (Camp Hurontario). The anti-venom doesn't work all that well.


The authorities get antsy about the snakes being moved because if they get moved more than a couple hundred meters or so (depends who you talk to) they're doomed because they won't find their winter hibernating spot (hibernaculum). I have friends with cottages up in Norgate Inlet who move snakes from the islands to the mainland. They might as well be whacking them with a shovel.
I'm heading back up to Beausoleil on Thursday, and will be wearing my cast-iron hip waders.


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## noreault (May 14, 2008)

Rattlesnake bites are a fairly rare event. Snake bites cause less than 6 deaths per year in the US. The chance of death if bitten is around 2.5% if untreated and .28% when treated. It is important to understand the behavior of the snakes and proper treatment of a bite. But the risk does need to be kept in perspective. Bee stings cause over 50 deaths per year.


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## M275sailer (Aug 29, 2008)

A story in last nights Sudbury Star is reporting that Parry Sound has a man in hospital now being treated with the antivenom. Sounds like they were scrambling to locate some. They reported that Parry Sound had the O.P.P. rush some in from a zoo in Peterborough taking what was half of their supply that they had on hand. 20k worth of medicine.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

*Just so people don't get the wrong impression...*

Last week I spent a couple of days at Beausoleil (Lost Bay).

I went ashore and got onto the hiking trail that goes around the top portion of the island - past Fairy Lake and over to Chimney Bay.

I was actively looking for rattlesnakes as I would really like to get a photo or some video footage of one.

I spent over four hours searching and didn't see one. I suspect that they were probably mostly in the wet areas where the mosquitoes were thickest.

So even though Beausoleil boasts a 'large' population of the snakes, and they are active at this time of year, it's not as though you will be wading hip-deep through a writhing mass of them.

When I returned home I heard of someone encountering a large black bear at a campsite on Beausoleil, just a couple of weeks ago. I would be a bit more concerned about that (although I have been known to follow bears through the bush in order to get that great photo - still unsuccessfully)


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## Diva27 (Nov 2, 2007)

flyingwelshman said:


> Last week I spent a couple of days at Beausoleil (Lost Bay).
> 
> I went ashore and got onto the hiking trail that goes around the top portion of the island - past Fairy Lake and over to Chimney Bay.
> 
> ...


I agree absolutely about Beausoleil: you won't be wading through them hip-deep. But they are active and around, and you need to take sensible precautions in how and where you hike. I'd be very leery about having a dog off-leash in the north end of the park. Even on-leash on the trail I was on (Massasauga, south of Ojibway Bay), having my lab (who was at home) on a leash wouldn't have prevented her from poking her nose right in the snake's face.
As for bears, boy, I'd never pursue a bear for any reason. I've seen quite a few from one end of the bay to the other, and they can have their space. There are indeed bears on Beausoleil. Ministry of Natural Resources estimates 40 to 60 per 100 square kilometers in this general cruising area. My favorite stupid boater story where bears are concerned is my own, which I may have told before. A number of years ago I was cruising in a 29-foot powerboat and tied to a rock wall in Henvey Inlet. I cooked chicken on a rail-mount barbecue, went off for a hike, and forgot to clean the bbq before calling it a night. The next morning I awoke to find a young bear poised on the rock wall, in the process of trying to figure out how to get onto the swim platform...and my daughter was sleeping in the cockpit. It took a lot of shouting and boat horn blowing to convince the bear to leave, and then I had to leave, because I had just ruined a great tie-up spot because the bear was sure to come back.
I have an entire page on dealing with bears and rattlesnakes, with resource links, on my cruising website, by the way. Massasauga and bears


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## Diva27 (Nov 2, 2007)

Cruisingdad said:


> I also did not know that the diamondback's venom was worse than a massasaugas. I assumed it was all the same. But again, I am no expert.
> 
> - CD


I really should re-read my own journalism before replying, as I did earlier on the toxicity question. This is from my 2002 story, which is archived online at Massasauga and bears

"It's possible to treat this snake too casually, since there have been no recorded fatalities in Ontario in at least 40 years, and the two known deaths involved victims who failed to seek treatment. Unlike a diamondback or a timber rattlesnake (which cause about 95 percent of all snakebite deaths in North America), a typical massasauga bite delivers far less venom than would prove fatal to a human. As well, anywhere from 20 to 50 percent of bites are believed to be "dry," as the snake declines to deliver any venom at all. Nevertheless, the venom is more toxic than that of other rattlers."


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

My wife was a wildlife rehabber for a number of years. She's seen "climate change" first-hand as Virginia opossums are now native to Southern Ontario, and a formerly American-only form of raccoon distemper is now in full effect.

We've seen black widows here in Toronto, although it's likely they are "migrant workers" arrived on fruit shipments in the summer and are not yet native.

I've seen a black bear in Bon Echo Park at fairly close quarters, and have seen one rattler on a warm rock (look for east-facing rocks on cool mornings...they tan to get their blood temp up) on the Niagara Escarpment.

Mainly, though, I've seen deer. Thousands of deer. As far as I'm concerned, if we are not prepared to reinstate the wolf as the apex predator, we need to issue a lot more hunting licences and start some venison sausage factories.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Massasauga rattlesnakes. Pfft. Chop it down with the edge of my hand.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

Diva27 said:


> I agree absolutely about Beausoleil: you won't be wading through them hip-deep. But they are active and around, and you need to take sensible precautions in how and where you hike. I'd be very leery about having a dog off-leash in the north end of the park. Even on-leash on the trail I was on (Massasauga, south of Ojibway Bay), having my lab (who was at home) on a leash wouldn't have prevented her from poking her nose right in the snake's face.
> As for bears, boy, I'd never pursue a bear for any reason. I've seen quite a few from one end of the bay to the other, and they can have their space. There are indeed bears on Beausoleil. Ministry of Natural Resources estimates 40 to 60 per 100 square kilometers in this general cruising area. My favorite stupid boater story where bears are concerned is my own, which I may have told before. A number of years ago I was cruising in a 29-foot powerboat and tied to a rock wall in Henvey Inlet. I cooked chicken on a rail-mount barbecue, went off for a hike, and forgot to clean the bbq before calling it a night. The next morning I awoke to find a young bear poised on the rock wall, in the process of trying to figure out how to get onto the swim platform...and my daughter was sleeping in the cockpit. It took a lot of shouting and boat horn blowing to convince the bear to leave, and then I had to leave, because I had just ruined a great tie-up spot because the bear was sure to come back.
> I have an entire page on dealing with bears and rattlesnakes, with resource links, on my cruising website, by the way. Massasauga and bears


Thanks for the link - I had already printed the page off in order to read it while I'm away this weekend.

One of the 'bears' that I followed into the bush turned out to be a moose calf. It got to the middle of a meadow. I stopped at the edge and watched as its mother stood up out of the tall grass. She had a second calf with her. Of course my camera was safely stored in my tent at the time...

Another bear ran across the road just ahead of me. I pulled over, grabbed my camera, and followed the bear into the bush. It stayed just enough ahead of me that I couldn't get a decent shot. When I returned to my truck my 6-year old daughter had locked the doors and wouldn't let me back in.

As much as I try to get that amazing National Geographic wildlife shot, it has mostly eluded me - but not from lack of trying.

When I lived with the Cree in Northern Quebec, they bestowed the name '_Gaa Geesh Kwaid_' upon me. Each time there was an announcement on the radio regarding the sighting of a potential hazard (wolves at the schoolyard, bear by the airport etc.) I would high-tail it to the area to find the animal. I was also renowned for canoeing during storms and tidal exchanges. Elders would stand on shore, shake their heads and mutter 'Gaa Geesh' ('Crazy') hence: '_Gaa Geesh Kwaid_' - 'The Crazy One'. I'm pretty sure that at least one 'sasquatch' sighting can be attributed to me bushwacking far from town.

I don't want to talk about crouching down by a Florida ditch to get nose to nose with an eleven-foot 'gator. This was before I'd seen that footage of the crocodiles at the watering hole. (What's that old saying about who God looks after?)

With all that said though, I agree that precautions should be taken. I subscribe to the Teddy Roosevelt philosophy regarding how to walk and what to carry.


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## Diva27 (Nov 2, 2007)

flyingwelshman said:


> Thanks for the link - I had already printed the page off in order to read it while I'm away this weekend.
> 
> When I lived with the Cree in Northern Quebec, they bestowed the name '_Gaa Geesh Kwaid_' upon me.


I don't have a Cree name, but if I did, it would mean something like "pale guy of Scottish ancestry who sunburns like toast and is constantly losing his glasses." I'm headed back to Chimney Bay tomorrow in large part to put on a scuba mask and dive for the glasses I lost jumping in without first checking the top of my head. The other week in Cedar Bay I did the same trick, this time with my cellphone in my shorts pocket. Turning 50 has hit me like a big sack of pointy rocks.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Diva27 said:


> I don't have a Cree name, but if I did, it would mean something like "pale guy of Scottish ancestry who sunburns like toast and is constantly losing his glasses." I'm headed back to Chimney Bay tomorrow in large part to put on a scuba mask and dive for the glasses I lost jumping in without first checking the top of my head. The other week in Cedar Bay I did the same trick, this time with my cellphone in my shorts pocket. Turning 50 has hit me like a big sack of pointy rocks.


That sounds like you are having senor moments right after you turned the Big Five Zero. I have noticed a time or two with myself also... But then I'm only Sixty Eight.


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## Diva27 (Nov 2, 2007)

Small world dep't: I picked up my older boy at the end of his workday today. He's working as an interpreter for the summer for Parks Canada at Big Chute Marine Railway. (It's part of the Trent-Severn Waterway, which is a a national historic site in addition to a working waterway, hence the interpreting.) Anyway, he said an elderly woman came into their building saying there was a turtle on the path making an odd noise. My son went out to investigate, and yep, the turtle was a rattlesnake. (I'm not making this up. Aren't turtles sort of round and snakes sort of long and narrow? Maybe it had been curled up. But I digress.) It was bleeding and in a very bad mood. Ministry of Natural Resources was called in to collect the beast and take it who knows where.
So they're everywhere right now.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Diva27 said:


> Small world dep't: I picked up my older boy at the end of his workday today. He's working as an interpreter for the summer for Parks Canada at Big Chute Marine Railway. (It's part of the Trent-Severn Waterway, which is a a national historic site in addition to a working waterway, hence the interpreting.) Anyway, he said an elderly woman came into their building saying there was a turtle on the path making an odd noise. My son went out to investigate, and yep, the turtle was a rattlesnake. (I'm not making this up. Aren't turtles sort of round and snakes sort of long and narrow? Maybe it had been curled up. But I digress.) It was bleeding and in a very bad mood. Ministry of Natural Resources was called in to collect the beast and take it who knows where.
> So they're everywhere right now.


Well, at least she didn't think it was a pile of cow poop!! Then you would really wonder about her!!!! HEHE! (inside joke).

Brian


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Cruisingdad said:


> Well, at least she didn't think it was a pile of cow poop!! Then you would really wonder about her!!!! HEHE! (inside joke).
> Brian


Inside joke, I thought we were going to keep this between us Dad!

I am originally from Indiana and I know cow poop. I was in Texas once and saw what I thought was a cow patty until it started to rattle. To this day I don't know what kind of snake it was because I didn't stick around long enough to find out.:laugher


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

You Canadians should gather up those snakes and bring them to Texas and race them. It's $20 dollars to enter, that would be $37 Canadian. If they don't win, let them lose.:laugher

Durango Texas: The World Championship Rattlesnake Races in San Patricio, Texas


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

bubb2 said:


> You Canadians should gather up those snakes and bring them to Texas and race them. It's $20 dollars to enter, that would be $37 Canadian. If they don't win, let them lose.:laugher
> 
> Durango Texas: The World Championship Rattlesnake Races in San Patricio, Texas


You can't let them loose. If you did that you would be creating Undocumented venminous vermin catchers. And they would be taking vermin meals away from U.S. venminous snakes...:laugher


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Boasun said:


> You can't let them loose. If you did that you would be creating Undocumented venminous vermin catchers. And they would be taking vermin meals away from U.S. venminous snakes...:laugher


You Texans, Why did we ever let you back in the union!
Are you listening, CD


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

bubb2 said:


> You Texas, Why did we ever let you back in the union!
> Are you listening, CD


Ever heard of a chicken race? Guess what happens to the losers? And FYI - rattlesnake tastes like chicken. I lie not and have had it! Deep battered and fried - just a touch of heaven.

SO bring 'em on down, y'all. We be havin' us a BBQ.

- CD


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## Diva27 (Nov 2, 2007)

bubb2 said:


> You Canadians should gather up those snakes and bring them to Texas and race them. It's $20 dollars to enter, that would be $37 Canadian. If they don't win, let them lose.:laugher
> 
> Durango Texas: The World Championship Rattlesnake Races in San Patricio, Texas


Just got back from two days at anchor in Terrorized Rattler Country, aka Georgian Bay Islands Nat'l Park. A bit of a crisis letdown: saw one snake, but it was an eastern fox. 
Hate to tell you, but the exchange rate ain't what it used to be, what with Alberta oil turning the Loonie into a petrodollar. I know the hard way because I get paid in yanqui dollars by U.S. publishers (WW Norton and Bloomsbury). Those weak-dollar days were cause for special celebrations around the family hearth. We'd load the family into the Fairlane 500 and splurge on gas to go to the border and stare into people's homes with binoculars and admire their Frigidaires and RCA televisions and beer that didn't come in metric measurements. I miss those days.


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## patrickrea (Aug 20, 2007)

I had a close encounter with a Fox snake this past weekend while playing lumberjack. I was bucking up some deadfall oak. Made a final cut (of 40 odd cuts), grabbed the edge of the log to pull it closer. The fox snake as curled up inside! I must have missed him by about 4" with the chainsaw. He had stayed inside this hollowed out log the entire time I was taking apart this 40' tree. And that included various stops for chain oil, gas, smoke breaks and even lunch.


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## scottbr (Aug 14, 2007)

flyingwelshman said:


> Last week I spent a couple of days at Beausoleil (Lost Bay).
> 
> I went ashore and got onto the hiking trail that goes around the top portion of the island - past Fairy Lake and over to Chimney Bay.
> 
> ...


I'll ask my son to get a few shots next time at the Y camp he's at for the summer as a counselor on Beausoliel. They've caught a few this year and the MNR come and relocate them.


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