# North Sails Direct fiasco



## DalesStar (Nov 19, 2009)

Just a heads up on North Sails sails. Besides burning us for about $400, they sold us a jib that was suppose to be a 135% for a 1973 Morgan OI33, we had a rigger install it all because I've been working on the boat for 12 years and never saw it up. So the sail we got when taken down and measured was only an 87% jib. Then North Sails tried to make it out as it was our fault. How can "Professional" sail makers make such a drastic mistake, and then put it on us. Like we were suppose to do their job. In 15 minutes online I found the appropriate sizes and dimensions, why couldn't they. 
Then we wanted the sail here faster so we paid $550 for express shipping. When the box comes in from Sri Lanka, it wasn't our sail and they don't know where our is. We were trying to hit a window to take off sailing, and that delayed us a month. No compensation from them or apology. Just s**t happens. This saga goes on and on, small claims court etc, before we got most of our money back. I'd just advise against using them, or do so being forewarned.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

It would be interesting to know the I J P E and other dimensions supplied on the form you filled out VS the dimensions on the sail you received ? 

Or how the size was decided ? 

There is no useful original number on my 1970 Cal 29 as the original headsail was on hanks and the mainsail track is different


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I am not sure I am understanding the situation. You have had the boat for 12 years, but had to pay someone to put your sail up? And then once you had it up, and presumably used it, you never noticed that it was a non-overlapping sail, a detail that would be hard to miss! 

Shipping mistakes happen, and it sounds like they tried to make it right, but why should they be expected to eat an additional $500 in shipping because you don't want to wait?

Why do I have the feeling that there is more to the story than what you are telling us?

The thing about ordering sails online is that they are relying on measurements made by the consumer. Is it possible you made a mistake on the measurements? It's not like ordering parts for a car, where make and model is all the info you need!


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

I have bought four North Sails through their direct sails program in the past three years. I used their New Orleans rep. In every case we used a VERY detailed spec sheet to spec out the sail. In addition we emailed and talked on the phone as often as possible to make sure the specs were agreed then I signed the spec sheet to order the sail.

All four sails - loose footed main with triple reef points/storm jib/asymmetric spinnaker with dousing sock/trysail - are spot on with what I ordered. Three of the four were delivered early and the fourth was only a few days late...for orders that were agreed to be filled from six weeks to three months after I confirmed the orders. Packaging of the orders was superb. The agent followed up with me to make sure I was happy with the sails encouraging that I inspect each of them and rig them and sail with them to make sure they met my needs. I did that except for the trysail because I don't have my track installed for it yet.

You really have this sail for 12 years and never used it?


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

And only three posts!


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## DalesStar (Nov 19, 2009)

The boat was in my back yard getting worked on for 12 years. I got the sail just before we dropped it in so never to have sailed it nor seen it with the mast up I had no idea. Why would I second guess the "professionals"?
I paid $500 for fast shipping, they delivered the wrong sail, (it was not my sail), I'm suppose to eat that? Right like you would!! My sail showed up a week later via a boat.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

Who put that one up?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

DalesStar said:


> The boat was in my back yard getting worked on for 12 years. I got the sail just before we dropped it in so never to have sailed it nor seen it with the mast up I had no idea. Why would I second guess the "professionals"?
> I paid $500 for fast shipping, they delivered the wrong sail, (it was not my sail), I'm suppose to eat that? Right like you would!! My sail showed up a week later via a boat.


Ok, so you paid $500 to get the sail quickly, they shipped the wrong one, found the right one, and got it to you in a week. I'm not sure how much quicker they could have corrected the mistake. They must have fast shipped the replacement sail to get it to you that quickly, and ate that cost. You must have really been in a hurry if you were willing to pay $500 to have the sail in less than a week!

Your shipping choices aside, how did you order a sail for a boat that you had never even seen the mast up, let alone measured the rig? Where did you get the rig dimensions from?

Clearly you are not satisfied with the service you got, but don't sign on to a site like this to vent about it and expect everyone to take what you say at face value. You should be able to make a stronger case than you have if are going to publicly attack a company.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Never order sails, shop for sails or let someone else tell you the dimensions you need. MEASURE, MEASURE, MEASURE, after 12 years you must know ever inch of the boat and you should know the sail and rig dimensions.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

RIG DIMENSIONS KEY
I: 40.50' / 12.34m J:  13.50' / 4.11m
P: 35.50' / 10.82m E: 14.00' / 4.27m
PY: EY: 
SPL: ISP: 
SA(Fore.): 273.38 ft2 / 25.40 m2 SA(Main): 248.50 ft2 / 23.09 m2
Total(calc.)SA: 521.88 ft2 / 48.48 m2 DL ratio: 311.26
SA/Disp: 14.09 Est. Forestay Len.: 42.69' / 13.01m


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I just outfitted my boat with a whole set of sails (used, in great condition) from Masthead Sailing Gear in st. pete. I took the measurements of my head stay, sail track and boom. picked out sails that basically fit out of their invetory. My loose footed main, $495, two reef points, (6 inches too short, big whoop) my 85% working jib $300, my 135% genny, $400 my A sym spin, $495., storm jib $ 50 bucks. all in like new condition and arrived in one week. A whole set for 1400 bucks! Highly recomend Masthead sailing gear, good prompt service, good selection. But it takes a wee bit of common sense on the customer end.


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## ccher (Jun 24, 2011)

North Sail Direct sent me a made in Sri Lanka sail that appears perfect in every dimension with construction quality equal or better than my old loft made North. Not clear whether the OP is just complaining about the initial mistake in delivery or that the 2nd sail was not right as well. Anyway North as do most reputable on line sail maker want a sign off on dimensions so I suspect something's going unsaid here.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

Let's see... If I understand correctly, North Sails received an order that simply specified a '135% jib' for a particular model of boat. If they really accepted an order worded that vaguely instead of asking for specific dimensions, it was incumbent upon them to follow through and find out what the correct dimensions should be. There's a *big* difference between 135% and 87%.... sounds to me like they just screwed up, and looked up dimensions for the wrong sail.

And if the customer was charged an extra $500.00 for prompt delivery and they delivered someone else's sail instead, with the correct one showing up a week later by boat, I fail to see why he should pony up the money anyway -- regardless of how much it cost North Sail to straighten out their mistake, the guy didn't get what he paid them the $500.00 for.

Was the customer depending a little too much on the sail maker, instead of doing his own homework and doing a better job of scheduling? Probably; sounds like the new sail was kind of a last-minute afterthought. But that doesn't excuse North Sails' double screw-up.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

troy2000 said:


> Let's see... If I understand correctly, North Sails received an order that simply specified a '135% jib' for a particular model of boat. If they really accepted an order worded that vaguely instead of asking for specific dimensions, it was incumbent upon them to follow through and find out what the correct dimensions should be. There's a *big* difference between 135% and 87%.... sounds to me like they just screwed up, and looked up dimensions for the wrong sail.
> 
> And if the customer was charged an extra $500.00 for prompt delivery and they delivered someone else's sail instead, with the correct one showing up a week later by boat, I fail to see why he should pony up the money anyway -- regardless of how much it cost North Sail to straighten out their mistake, the guy didn't get what he paid them the $500.00 for.
> 
> Was the customer depending a little too much on the sail maker, instead of doing his own homework and doing a better job of scheduling? Probably; sounds like the new sail was kind of a last-minute afterthought. But that doesn't excuse North Sails' double screw-up.


So whats North Sails side?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Frankly, my experience with the non-mail order North loft was that not all that different from the OP. A few years back, I ordered two sails from them. The first was supposed to be an AP #2 and came in cut as a flat cut, heavy air #2. They stood behind that sail and replaced it with what was supposed to be the same size sail cut as an AP. That sail is way under reinforced and so is useless, being too small for light air and too stretchy for mid range. Frankly has been used 3 times and sits bagged and unused. 

The second sail was an AP #3. The loft again measured my boat and insisted that I needed to add a new longer track, which I did. After the track was installed, they came out and remeasured. When the sail arrived the sheet lead did not even hit the track. We had weeks of discussion about how to adjust the sail to get it to hit the track without screwing up the sail. Then they ignored what was agreed to and did something completely different and unacceptable. When I complained, in fairness they did return my money and did tell me to go somewhere else. 

So on one hand, I think they tried to do the right thing. On the other hand, their accuracy in making sails to the right size and shape sucks. And they left me with out an AP right at the start of the sailing season. 

Quantum came in and made the sails I needed quickly, for less money and they have been brilliant sails with the kind or wide wind range I was looking for. 

As a postscript, I did buy back the North #2 sail that was cut too flat for an AP, with the plan of using it as a heavier air #2, and have used it, but it has not stood up very well compared to the Quantum Jib which I bought to replace the jib that North never could get right. The Quantum sail has way more use, in way more wind than the North, yet the North is shot and the Quantum looks like new. 

I think that the reality with North is if you are not a one design racer, or a rock star, but you care about your sails, they are the wrong place to go. North made me a big believer in Quantum. 

Jeff


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Interesting Jeff. We started our circumnavigation with two new North sails, a #2 and an asymmetric and they have been terrific, especially the #2 which now had been used for more than 20,000 miles and still seems decent. The only repairs to the two sails have been for chafe issues at the corners and along the foot.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

A friend ordered a RF genny from the local North loft. They did the measuring and it was for a Catalina 30 (I think they must made a few sails for that boat over the years!!). TWICE they delivered a sail that was the wrong size. Took a year to get it right.


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## DalesStar (Nov 19, 2009)

I WORKED ON THE BOAT FOR 12 YEARS IN MY BACK YARD. IT WAS NEVER IN THE WATER., (Personal attack removed per forum rules, Jeff H Sailnet Moderator). The sail took 4 weeks to make. I paid for fast shipping and they shipped the wrong one and shipped mine on the ship, which arrived a week later. Pay attention. Sail makers have the dimensions for every boat. There was nothing they said that I had to provide. I'm new at sailing so I believe them. My bust., not trying to win a court case, if you want to buy from the go ahead. I'll even insist that you do.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Dales. it's understandable your angry but really, you should know the dimensions of your boats rig. My own boat calls for a 33.3 ft luff on the main.. I have a sail on her that is close to 35' and there is still room for the main halyard to give it tension. 

Do you have photos of the project? 12 years! some people loose interest after 3! I have my eye on a Morgan at another YC where it's been sitting for years.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

DalesStar said:


> I WORKED ON THE BOAT FOR 12 YEARS IN MY BACK YARD. IT WAS NEVER IN THE WATER., (Personal attack removed per forum rules, Jeff H Sailnet Moderator). The sail took 4 weeks to make. I paid for fast shipping and they shipped the wrong one and shipped mine on the ship, which arrived a week later. Pay attention. Sail makers have the dimensions for every boat. There was nothing they said that I had to provide. I'm new at sailing so I believe them. My bust., not trying to win a court case, if you want to buy from the go ahead. I'll even insist that you do.


I am surprised that they didn't ask for any measurements. It is not always as simple as ordering a sail based on the model of the boat. My boat, for example, was a relatively limited production run. There were about 110 boats built over 8 years, and in that time there were 4 different rigs offered. I happen to have the dimensions for 3 of those rigs, but my sail maker still came down to measure everything when I ordered a sail.

We hear stories like yours fairly often, although usually the real horror stories are the small lofts, not usually the big guys like North and Quantum. In almost every case, when we dig a little deeper a more complete story comes out.

What was their reasoning for not reimbursing you for the express shipping? $500 seems a pretty steep price to pay to get your sail a few days earlier.
That must be a fair percentage of the cost of the sail!


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

I visit our local loft every month or so, the guy down here is really knowledgeable and I've used him for references to do other work (e.g. wood, etc), because he knows so many folks down here.

I swear every time I'm there, I see another brand new sail from a major sailmaker that was done incorrectly, but that the owners don't want to mess with shipping it back or have a tight timeframe. Usually they are small errors, but still errors that shouldn't have happened if it was made to specification. As a result, I'd probably try to use a local loft if we had anything new made.

Personally, I have just bought used sails lately. The expense of having new ones made is high compared to finding a few decent used sails and maybe waiting a little while to find the right ones. I actually got a new main and jib for <$200, both in great shape, but I was waiting to find them for 6 months or so and happened upon the right opportunity. I do recognize that this won't be an option for all boats and sails though.



DalesStar said:


> I paid $500 for fast shipping, they delivered the wrong sail, (it was not my sail), I'm suppose to eat that? Right like you would!! My sail showed up a week later via a boat.


Where does it cost you $500 for faster shipping?

Also, out of curiosity, how long did you have the sail before you noticed the problem?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Capt.aaron said:


> I just outfitted my boat with a whole set of sails (used, in great condition) from Masthead Sailing Gear in st. pete. I took the measurements of my head stay, sail track and boom. picked out sails that basically fit out of their invetory. My loose footed main, $495, two reef points, (6 inches too short, big whoop) my 85% working jib $300, my 135% genny, $400 my A sym spin, $495., storm jib $ 50 bucks. all in like new condition and arrived in one week. A whole set for 1400 bucks! Highly recomend Masthead sailing gear, good prompt service, good selection. But it takes a wee bit of common sense on the customer end.


There seems to be an unlimited supply of almost new sails for 1/2 the price of new. It's great to be able to buy new sails at $2000 a pop, designed by a local sailmaker but it's not in everyone's sailing budget. I bought a used main from Atlantic Sail Traders last year to cut down and turn into a heavy weather main. It was a Rolly Tasker that looked like it had never been taken out of the bag. Cost $250 bucks. Besides the sewing work, cutting the roach off and extending/beefing up the batten pockets, all I had to do was attach different slides. Minney's, Atlantic Sail Traders, and many other places have loads of good, used sails. If you can do your own modifications, A used sail can be custom fit to your purpose.

I don't think it's wise to trust that any sailmaker has the correct sail measurements on file. All the m/ms really need to be specified in inches or mm before hand, including the shape percentages. "Make me a 135% Genoa," is inviting error.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

In my mind, unless you own a boat which is a pretty strict one design, or you do not care how your sails fit, then its makes next to no sense to buy a used sail no matter how cheap it is. A well made sail is more than a simple white triangle. It is cut to the expected headstay sag, mast bend, hardware geometry, the characteristics of the boat such as its need for more drive or pointing ability. So even if you succeed in finding a sail with roughly the right luff, leech and foot length, its not so easy to buy a sail with the right geometry to work with your boat. 

Jeff


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smurphny said:


> There seems to be an unlimited supply of almost new sails for 1/2 the price of new. .


Interesting. Why do so many people by sails, then never use them?


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

casey1999 said:


> Interesting.  Why do so many people by sails, then never use them?


There are certain types of sails that are easy to find used. Storm jibs and cruising spinnakers are often easily available because they seem like a good idea at the time that they are purchased, and then are never used. These types of sails also easily move between boats of approximately the same size (where genoas and mains seem to benefit more from a very specific fit).

Nice hank-on genoas can be found because someone upgraded to roller furling and bought a new sail.

Roller furling genoas and very good condition mains are a lot harder to find because they are mostly sold once blown out or when the rest of the boat is destroyed due to a storm.

If you have a hank-on boat then it's very easy to find a good selection of used sails. If you have a popular-size hank-on boat then it's even easier to find ones that fit well.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

If a sail was original stock equipment for a boat, and that boat is a fairly well or commonly documented vessel, sure, you should be able to call any loft and tell them "look it up, I need a main for a ByGosh 34". That's about as complicated as ordering tires for a car.

Of course, with a boat, unless you bought it brand new there is a reasonable chance that an OLD boat no longer has the original rigging, and it would not be unreasonable for a loft to say "MEASURE IT ANYWAY".

But how a sail gets from Sri Lanka to anyplace in the US by ocean freight "on a boat" in just one week, sure as heck surprises me. What kind of fast freighter gets across the Pacific in less than five days, allowing one more day at each end to make the sail, load the sail, unload and deliver the sail on ground?

How does one pay for that kind of service, with a three dollar bill?

Boats in my backyard for 12 years, and I'm going to pay a rigger to come out and hoist a sail?? Really? Does it take ten minutes to hoist a sail? Is a rigger going to make any house call for less than a hundred bucks?

It must be nice to have money. And so little time that it takes 12 years to prep a boat.


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## Morild (Mar 31, 2013)

> If a sail was original stock equipment for a boat, and that boat is a fairly well or commonly documented vessel, sure, you should be able to call any loft and tell them "look it up, I need a main for a ByGosh 34". That's about as complicated as ordering tires for a car.


That is not good advice I'm afraid. Every boat varies, and for a main sail, the mast bend and aft heel, will have a great impact on the outcome.

I just took hold of a new main sail, and I must say that I am very glad that I took a lot and precise messaurements, otherwise it would not have been a good experience.
Please don't simplify this, it can give other people a very bad experience when they receive their sails, in fact I think that any proffesional sailmaker should deny to design and deliver sails without specific meassures.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

To continue the car tire analogy; if I went to the tire shop and asked for a set of tires for my 2001 Volvo V70, they would still want to know what size wheels. There were several different wheel and tire packages available for that model, and I also have a set of aftermarket wheels for my winter tires as well! They would need to know that information before they could order anything, and if I couldn't tell them, they would want to check the car for themselves!

I too wonder about the $500 shipping vs the cheap high speed boat from SriLanka!

The OP doesn't seem to want to clarify anything for us.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Morild, stock size sails fit stock boats. How you've raked the mast has no bearing on what the original sail size was, or what the current sail size is. Unless you're a top-tier racer making custom sails, rigging adjustments play no role in how you buy sails.

On the other hand, if you measure an old sail, you are also guaranteed to give the loft the wrong measurements for a new sail, as old sails are stretched out and can easily be 2-4% longer than when they were new. The first time I asked a loft to make a genoa and make sure it was a full 130(?) percent based on the builder's measurements, their answer was that they'd suggest making it only 128%, because after a year or so it would stretch out and if anyone measured it--we'd be DSQ'd on the spot.

If you've got the original rig, the original sail plan WILL fit. And if the designer did a good job, it will work very nicely. If you didn't buy the boat brand new, you have no way to tell if some PO replaced the rigging, maybe used a turnbuckle an inch too long (excuse me, 2.5cm too long in Denmark?) or what was done, so you still need to measure the rig and the sail both.

Shock-
You're right, there may be different wheel sizes. That would be perfectly analogous to asking "Did you get the light air rig, or the shoal draft?" and in both cases, any half-competent shop would look up the model in their library and see there are (or aren't) variations, to come back and ask again. 
With any custom-made product, any "bespoke suit" so to speak, if you expect it to fit properly the very first time without any chance of error...sooner or later you'll get a surprise. These days, sooner is sadly more likely.


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## Morild (Mar 31, 2013)

> Morild, stock size sails fit stock boats. How you've raked the mast has no bearing on what the original sail size was, or what the current sail size is. Unless you're a top-tier racer making custom sails, rigging adjustments play no role in how you buy sails.
> 
> On the other hand, if you measure an old sail, you are also guaranteed to give the loft the wrong measurements for a new sail, as old sails are stretched out and can easily be 2-4% longer than when they were new. The first time I asked a loft to make a genoa and make sure it was a full 130(?) percent based on the builder's measurements, their answer was that they'd suggest making it only 128%, because after a year or so it would stretch out and if anyone measured it--we'd be DSQ'd on the spot.


Uhm no... sails RETRACT in the outer perimeter, that's part of why they become deeper in shape when used.

I don't know what you think I did to my rig, but I just would like to warn against thinking that using "standard" meassures will get you the right sail, because they will give you everything else but that.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

So, since the thread has drifted a tad, let me chime in with some questions. 
What other measurements are required, other than luff, leach, foot, for a main to fit 
properly? Same question applies for a jib. I'm interested in purchasing used sails but there aren't that many Nor'sea 27 used sails on the market but there are plenty of used mains and jibs whose dimensions are close to my sail plan, (half foot or so shorter).


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

For something like a Nor'sea, you need to measure headstay sag under way for the size jib in question. If you have any mast bend, you need to measure that as well. Then you need to find a sail with a similar luff hollow. 

The Nor'seas have a comparatively large amount of drag and do not point as high as a performance boat so you would not want a sail from something like a J-24, which would tend to be flatter cut and lighter cloth.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Uhm no... sails RETRACT in the outer perimeter, that's part of why they become deeper in shape when used."
Except, ail measurement for racing regulations is not a chord across empty space. it is measured along the surface of the sail. And if the sail has more depth, that is from the cloth stretching out, and the dimension as measured has increased. That's _stretch_, it is the same for all dacron sails. They get baggy, blow out, get more depth, because the measurement along the sail has _increased_. 
I'm sure the sailmaker didn't lie to me about that.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

The friend who owns my old Catalina 25 bought two sails today for well under $400, and we had a chance to try them both out. One is a lightly used hank-on 150% genoa, the other is a "never used" storm jib. I don't know if the storm jib is truly new, but both are in very good shape.

The storm jib works great, it's hard to have those not transfer between boats well.

The genoa isn't as good as a new custom made sail would be, but it's really close. It's a deck sweeper with the foot sitting almost parallel to the deck when you have a moderate amount of draft. I think a custom made sail would be cut a little flatter, but this one is still performing pretty well. We know that the genoa came off of a 26' boat, it was likely a Columbia 26 which has almost the same jib rig setup.

This boat has 4 decent headsails (storm jib, working jib, genoa, asym spinnaker w/ sock), all purchased used at a total of under $1000. They were all lightly used to like new. Hard to argue with the function per dollar spent on that.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Jeff_H said:


> In my mind, unless you own a boat which is a pretty strict one design, or you do not care how your sails fit, then its makes next to no sense to buy a used sail no matter how cheap it is. A well made sail is more than a simple white triangle. It is cut to the expected headstay sag, mast bend, hardware geometry, the characteristics of the boat such as its need for more drive or pointing ability. So even if you succeed in finding a sail with roughly the right luff, leech and foot length, its not so easy to buy a sail with the right geometry to work with your boat.
> 
> Jeff


 If your main objective is to sail around bouy's faster than the other guy, then used sails won't do, this is true. If sailing is a fine tuned "sport" for you, and every nuance of sail shape is what drives you to sail, then no, used sails are not the way to go. You'll also want a hull that has put speed above saftey, something light weight in construction and you will want a light anchor so as not to slow you down. However, if sailing is a means of exploration and you want to safely get across the ocean to see whats on the other side, and your the kind of sailor who will purposely dump wind to slow down in order make the harbour entrance after sunrise in stead of 3 hours before, when the racer dude is raising his aysym. And If you are the kind of sailor who is reefing to lessen the strain on the rig and hull, when racer dude is heeling and yelling "yahoo, we are sailing now!", than used sails are the way to go. like I said, I bought a like new, double reefing main, a storm jib, a working jib that fits like a glove, a 135% genny that sits perfectly and a black yellow and red asymetrical in excellent conditon for 1400 bucks total! And I am sailing to Honduras with an affordable, good looking ,new to me, set of sails in less than a month. This left me money to buy a fancy new wind vane, a bigger better life raft, a g-pirb, a sat phone, the bigger solar pannel I wanted, a spot, new fouly's, a back up auto helm, all new blocks, main sheet, halyards, a vhf with ais, and a new gps. All which I would have done with out if I had gone for all new custom sails. Which I do want. I have sailed aprox. 15,000 miles of open water on just my little sloop alone, to as many as 10 different countries on good used sails, with no engine. Next I buy the new mast, then the engine, then I get the local sail loft to start sewing.


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## DalesStar (Nov 19, 2009)

Just an update and an end to all this that I feel is only fair to share. Peter Colby The manager of North Sails phoned us up and apologized for this whole mess. He had not heard anything about it from the people that were supposed to be handling it. He looked into the situation and said it was totally a mismanagement of information on their part and has corrected the situation and has satisfied this customer beyond expectations. What Peter did is "customer service" the way it should be and all I wanted from North Sails Direct. He informed me that that is not their policy of how to handle this type of situation and is looking into it and will correct it. Peter, thank you again for your phone call, you put my faith back into North Sails and customer service as a whole.


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## DalesStar (Nov 19, 2009)

It wasn't a used sail, it was a new one. But the situation has been resolved and is over. Thanks for any helpful input, all the other input should be posted on Facebook.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

DalesStar said:


> Just an update and an end to all this that I feel is only fair to share. Peter Colby The manager of North Sails phoned us up and apologized for this whole mess. He had not heard anything about it from the people that were supposed to be handling it. He looked into the situation and said it was totally a mismanagement of information on their part and has corrected the situation and has satisfied this customer beyond expectations. What Peter did is "customer service" the way it should be and all I wanted from North Sails Direct. He informed me that that is not their policy of how to handle this type of situation and is looking into it and will correct it. Peter, thank you again for your phone call, you put my faith back into North Sails and customer service as a whole.


That is good news! The final result is more in line with what I have come to expect from the big players like North and Quantum.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Capt.aaron said:


> If your main objective is to sail around bouy's faster than the other guy, then used sails won't do, this is true. If sailing is a fine tuned "sport" for you, and every nuance of sail shape is what drives you to sail, then no, used sails are not the way to go. You'll also want a hull that has put speed above saftey, something light weight in construction and you will want a light anchor so as not to slow you down. However, if sailing is a means of exploration and you want to safely get across the ocean to see whats on the other side, and your the kind of sailor who will purposely dump wind to slow down in order make the harbour entrance after sunrise in stead of 3 hours before, when the racer dude is raising his aysym. And If you are the kind of sailor who is reefing to lessen the strain on the rig and hull, when racer dude is heeling and yelling "yahoo, we are sailing now!", than used sails are the way to go. like I said, I bought a like new, double reefing main, a storm jib, a working jib that fits like a glove, a 135% genny that sits perfectly and a black yellow and red asymetrical in excellent conditon for 1400 bucks total! And I am sailing to Honduras with an affordable, good looking ,new to me, set of sails in less than a month. This left me money to buy a fancy new wind vane, a bigger better life raft, a g-pirb, a sat phone, the bigger solar pannel I wanted, a spot, new fouly's, a back up auto helm, all new blocks, main sheet, halyards, a vhf with ais, and a new gps. All which I would have done with out if I had gone for all new custom sails. Which I do want. I have sailed aprox. 15,000 miles of open water on just my little sloop alone, to as many as 10 different countries on good used sails, with no engine. Next I buy the new mast, then the engine, then I get the local sail loft to start sewing.


Wow! Aren't we feeling superior! You're right, performance sailors are just reckless yahoos sailing flimsy unsafe boats. 

I agree with you that used sails that sort of fit are just fine for the average cruiser. The fact is, the majority of cruisers I encounter don't seem to care if their sails are trimmed correctly anyway, (or in some cases they just have no clue!) so why waste money on new sails?
The only new sail I have bought for my boat is the asymetric chute. Even my one "real" racing sail, a kevlar #1, was a used one off a different boat. It is far from perfect, but still good enough for beercan racing. Used sails are a valid option when you are on a budget. Not all of us can justify paying $500 to get our new $2000 headsail a few days faster!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Capt.aaron said:


> If your main objective is to sail around bouy's faster than the other guy, then used sails won't do, this is true. If sailing is a fine tuned "sport" for you, and every nuance of sail shape is what drives you to sail, then no, used sails are not the way to go. You'll also want a hull that has put speed above saftey, something light weight in construction and you will want a light anchor so as not to slow you down. However, if sailing is a means of exploration and you want to safely get across the ocean to see whats on the other side, and your the kind of sailor who will purposely dump wind to slow down in order make the harbour entrance after sunrise in stead of 3 hours before, when the racer dude is raising his aysym. And If you are the kind of sailor who is reefing to lessen the strain on the rig and hull, when racer dude is heeling and yelling "yahoo, we are sailing now!", than used sails are the way to go. like I said, I bought a like new, double reefing main, a storm jib, a working jib that fits like a glove, a 135% genny that sits perfectly and a black yellow and red asymetrical in excellent conditon for 1400 bucks total! And I am sailing to Honduras with an affordable, good looking ,new to me, set of sails in less than a month. This left me money to buy a fancy new wind vane, a bigger better life raft, a g-pirb, a sat phone, the bigger solar pannel I wanted, a spot, new fouly's, a back up auto helm, all new blocks, main sheet, halyards, a vhf with ais, and a new gps. All which I would have done with out if I had gone for all new custom sails. Which I do want. I have sailed aprox. 15,000 miles of open water on just my little sloop alone, to as many as 10 different countries on good used sails, with no engine. Next I buy the new mast, then the engine, then I get the local sail loft to start sewing.


Boy do you have that wrong: if you are a cruiser who needs to beat off a leeshore, if you are a cruiser who does not want reef early or beat thier sails to death flogging them, if you are a cruiser who does not want to heel excessively, if you are a cruiser who does not want to wear out crew with excessive weather helm, or over power the windvane in a gust, or have to run the engine to charge the batteries because the autopilot is working harder, or do not want to replace sails prematurely because improper load mapping over stressed some corner of the sail, or it was made out of the wrong cloth, or you are a cruiser who does not want to have to motor as much because in order to get a sail which can deal with heavy air, you bought one that was too heavy for moderate conditions, then perhaps you might actually want to buy a sail that is designed for your boat.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I agree with SchockT.

For the record the Catalina 25 that I mentioned above is mostly used in beer can racing, not cruising. We also have fun getting it moving when there is "no wind" and everyone else is sitting around idle. So sail shape matters a lot to us. I'll do a little case study in why buying used sails can be tricky.

The genoa that was bought yesterday was $165 and is still crisp and not stretched. It came off of a "26' sailboat" and was considered a 170% genoa on that boat. The measurements on the Catalina 25 tall end up being about 150%. The luff length is just about perfect. This makes me guess that it came off of a boat with a 31-32' I and 9.5' J, instead of the 31' I and 10.5' J of the Catalina 25. That could be something like a Pearson Ariel/Commander.

The downside of moving it from a boat with a shorter J to a longer J is that the angle between the luff and foot is a bit less acute than one cut for the Catalina (by my calculation the difference is about 1 degree) and the leech is a little longer. This puts the clew very close to the deck height and genoa track block, which makes it difficult to fully flatten the sail.

One way to fix this is to raise the sail higher off of the deck. Raising the sail 3" will make up for the 1 degree of loss. We now have a gap under most of the sail along the deck though, which makes the sail less efficient. You also need 3" more luff length, which is hard since the sail is already 2" longer than ideal. In our case it just worked.

So the sail is a hair less efficient than one cut for the boat because it is sitting a little too high off of the deck. In the future it could be recut with a new foot for a couple hundred dollars and we'd still come out way ahead. In the meantime it is a lot better than the genoa that we have been sailing with (which was also a "wrong" sail, it appears to have been cut for a Catalina 25 standard, not tall).


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Jeff_H said:


> Boy do you have that wrong: if you are a cruiser who needs to beat off a leeshore, if you are a cruiser who does not want reef early or beat their sails to death flogging them, if you are a cruiser who does not want to heel excessively, if you are a cruiser who does not want to wear out crew with excessive weather helm, or over power the windvane in a gust, or have to run the engine to charge the batteries because the autopilot is working harder, or do not want to replace sails prematurely because improper load mapping over stressed some corner of the sail, or it was made out of the wrong cloth, or you are a cruiser who does not want to have to motor as much because in order to get a sail which can deal with heavy air, you bought one that was too heavy for moderate conditions, then perhaps you might actually want to buy a sail that is designed for your boat.[/QUOT
> 
> Na, I got that right. My boat is pointy in the front, big stick sticking up in the middle, I hang white triangles made of dacron, that were disigned to catch wind and make the boat move forward. I just bought my 3rd set in 20 years. Ya'll tend to make something as simple as catching a breeze and move across the water, in to some kind of exact science. I race the tides and weather, beat off lee shores, balance my boat so she steers her self, sail on and off the dock, bla bla bla, all used sails. There is a surplus of used sails available, which make cruising that much more affordable for people, which will get more people out there. Which is a goal of mine, to promote the life style and convince people with moderate incomes that they to can afford to get out there and enjoy it. I just did a shopping day of used marine Gear today as a matter of fact and bought great used or pre-owned gear at a fraction of the price. Sail covers, life raft, snatch blocks, sea anchor, compass, anchor, jerry cans, shackles spreader boots, sails etc. etc. I want more people realize that there is a surpluss of great boats out there at great prices. I've seen newbies not get a great boat because it needed sails, and new custom sails were way too expensive, and gear as well. If one dude saves thousands because he read this thread and realized he could go used, than we've done our job. If one couple buy's a 15 thousand dollar cruiser and hanks used sail's on it and has 90 thousand left over to cruise with, that's great. And I'd like it if just one dude reads a thread like this and decides that it's not all about pushing light boats to there max speed on sunday, but sailing thick hulled cruisers with big ground tackle to exotic places can be just as if not more rewarding. I sure have been sailing around a lot with used sails for having it all wrong. I'm glad no one told me I needed new sails 24 years ago, I may have never set sail. Oh, and if I were a cruiser who does'nt want to reef early, than I'm not doing it right. You reef the moment it crosses your mind, first rule of reefing. It's probaly not in the racing rule book ya''ll are alway's qout'n and arguing over.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I've said this before and I'll say it again, when buying sails there is no substitute for dealing with a local company, where someone will come and measure the boat - someone experienced in measuring boats. Hopefully they will then make them for you locally, too. 

Anything else is cutting corners, and most of the time one gets away with it - but sometimes you don't.

If you're going to mail order, at least have a stab at measuring the boat yourself. Double check the measurements with Saildata. You don't even need the rig up to measure J..... now I think about it you can check any measurement with the rig down.

Remember the phrase, trust but verify?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Jeff_H said:


> In my mind, unless you own a boat which is a pretty strict one design, or you do not care how your sails fit, then its makes next to no sense to buy a used sail no matter how cheap it is. A well made sail is more than a simple white triangle. It is cut to the expected headstay sag, mast bend, hardware geometry, the characteristics of the boat such as its need for more drive or pointing ability. So even if you succeed in finding a sail with roughly the right luff, leech and foot length, its not so easy to buy a sail with the right geometry to work with your boat.
> 
> Jeff


Yes, you're right about it being next to impossible to find a used sail with exactly the right shape. I did raise the sail I mentioned above before altering it and it did not work very well at all even though the perimeter measurements were almost exactly right. It had much more belly (in the wrong place), than the correct sail. I bought it to cut down and reinforce into a heavy weather sail, so it didn't matter too much. But, if someone wants to buy a sail to alter, it seems they can be had for less than the price of just the new cloth. Personally, I'd rather make a sail from scratch and hand sew all my grommets, put in substantial batten pockets, and use good materials but the price of sailcloth is through the roof. I just finished a storm jib designed with Sailcut Cad. The materials for that little 63 sq. ft. sail came to around $400.


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## baywater (Sep 27, 2011)

I know this is an older thread but we are short on good info on the variety of Sail-makers out there. I ordered a jib (lapper with a higher clew) and a main from North Sails Direct in 2013 from the Cape Cod group (Brad White) and received very patient thorough service. He got me through the measurement process including a few modest modifications due to a repaired boom and my sails came fast and beautifully packaged. They fit great and I have enjoyed the past years learning the real pleasure of good sails and all the tweaks one can do with them. I sail weekends from April to the end of November and they are in fine shape with no wear points or problems. The North batten pockets are great and my only change if I was to do it again would be to order a second full batten just to tweak it a bit more. Love the loose footed main which taught me much about foot tension in varying wind.
Anyway they have a good product and do a good job. 
Chris Cod
SV WindWitch (Morgan 24/25 1967)


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