# why a storm jib?



## Gregrosine (Feb 10, 2013)

With very limited experience I ask this question. If you have a furling jib why do you need a storm jib? Doesn't just partially furling your jib do the same as a storm jib? Or is there some other quality of the storm jib that I am not aware?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

main issue, is a storm jib is usually made with heavier cloth than a typical jib. So one could tear up a typical jib in a real storm, ie say gale or above winds.

Marty


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

Good question.

A sail is a lot more than just a triangle made of dacron. A sail has a 3 dimensional shape, and that shape is based on the wind the sail is designed to be used in. 

A large 150% genoa, designed to be used in winds under 15 kts, is made of a relatively light material, is cut with a lot draft, and will generate a lot of power. A #3 jib, which is a lot bigger than a storm jib, is both physically smaller than a genoa, is made of stronger (and heavier) material, and is cut flatter than the genoa so that it doesn't generate as much power.

The storm jib will be the smallest and heaviest sail. It will be cut very flat so that it can be used in high winds to generate just a little power.

Now, back to your question, a 150 genoa can be rolled up so that it is the same SIZE as a storm sail, but it won't work nearly as well. First, there will be a lot of sail material rolled around the headstay. That sail material is not aerodynamic. The 150 when rolled up will have too much draft and will generate more power than the storm sail. Lastly, the sail material is probably not strong enough to handle the high loads.

Barry


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## bill cartwright (Oct 28, 2012)

Normally a storm jib gives you control of your boat when the wind is 30 knots up for the typical cruiser. A roller furling sail is light weight for one and puts the center of effort to far forward which reduces the ability to control the boat. Idealily it would be closer to the main in a staysail type of installation which would give better control as well as no fear of it unfurling out to a 120% genny in 50 knot wind. I personally do not like roller furling because it fails when you need it the most. I still hank on and know the sail will be there an not grow bigger than it really is by unfurling. I have even put a storm jib on my main with the main completely tied down and had great balance on a sloop rig. I think most people here have learned their hard knock lessons little by little and I feel you will do the same. I have been sailing only forty years so I guess I am a little seasoned in my past history of learning through mistakes. You really don't have to have a storm jib as long as you are a fair weather sailor and keep on top of the weather conditions. It is your choice, But I would not go off shore without one in my stores along with several other items. I wish you fair winds..


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## Gregrosine (Feb 10, 2013)

bill cartwright said:


> Normally a storm jib gives you control of your boat when the wind is 30 knots up for the typical cruiser. A roller furling sail is light weight for one and puts the center of effort to far forward which reduces the ability to control the boat. Idealily it would be closer to the main in a staysail type of installation which would give better control as well as no fear of it unfurling out to a 120% genny in 50 knot wind. I personally do not like roller furling because it fails when you need it the most. I still hank on and know the sail will be there an not grow bigger than it really is by unfurling. I have even put a storm jib on my main with the main completely tied down and had great balance on a sloop rig. I think most people here have learned their hard knock lessons little by little and I feel you will do the same. I have been sailing only forty years so I guess I am a little seasoned in my past history of learning through mistakes. You really don't have to have a storm jib as long as you are a fair weather sailor and keep on top of the weather conditions. It is your choice, But I would not go off shore without one in my stores along with several other items. I wish you fair winds..


Thanks. To take advantage of your 40+ years, what are your "several other items"?


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I would agree with Bill about not needing a storm jib. Presumably you are sailing on Lake Michigan, or another inland lake. Most likely, you will be dealing with thunderstorm winds, not sustained gales. In a T-storm, I'm guessing you would just drop all sail and motor until it passes. Remember that even with a foam luff, the sail you have up there is a roller furling sail, not a roller reefing sail. Just doesn't do well if rolled up much.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I have to disagree a bit with what is being said. But first some definitions. A storm jib is not the same thing as a smaller jib. It refers to a quite small, very heavy sail meant for storm conditions, not 30 knots. So a racing boat might have a #1 (say 150% and they might have two, one with heavier and one with lighter cloth), a #2 (135%), a #3 (110%), a #4 (85%) and a storm jib which would be a much smaller still. On our cruising boat we have a 135%, a 100% both to go on the furled, along with a staysail and storm jib which are hanked and on a removable inner stay.

Now to the use. In 35,000 miles we used the storm jib zero times, the staysail a few times and the 100% once on the way to Easter Island when we damaged the 135%. The 135% was used in some nasty conditions, a few times in excess of 50 knots with perhaps 6 feet of sail unrolled. It is quite flat then and works well. It was built by North and has worked very well indeed for us. It probably has been up for 30,000 miles. Modern sail cloth if it is in good shape is remarkably strong stuff. The 135% is being replaced, not because it is shot but just because it is old and worn. It will go to Bacon and I imagine someone will find a useful, cheap sail that is OK for coastal use. We will likely use it to from the Caribbean to New England and keep the new one for later.

The vast majority of cruising is done off the wind (that is why you choose the route you do - part of the gentlemen don't go to weather approach) and sail shape then does not matter that much. Changing a furler sail when it starts getting really windy, say 35 knots+ is not any easy task on a boat of decent size since the sail really wants to go for a swim when only the three corners are attached to something and the bow is going up and down 8 or 10 feet and the ocean wants to land on deck. In most cases, changing sails happens at the dock when you know the forecast for the day. If you are on a long passage you pretty much stay with the sail you have on. One reason people are cruising with bigger boats now is that they do not change headsails like guys like Chichester and Moitessier did. Those guys were tough and resilient with the number of sail changes they did. If you have a sloop, i.e. no inner stay to put up a smaller sail, it is a problem. This is one reason why I think that Solent stay rigs make a great deal of sense.

On the Great Lakes you don't need a storm jib since you are not going to get caught by a gale that will last for a day or so. Also shelter is almost always not too far away. As someone said, the main problem is thunderstorms and these can bring a lot of wind, but they don't last long so you can roll up all or almost all of the jib if it helps with steering. You can either motor or heave-to (how to do that has been discussed here) and wait it out.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Gregrosine said:


> With very limited experience I ask this question. If you have a furling jib why do you need a storm jib? Doesn't just partially furling your jib do the same as a storm jib? Or is there some other quality of the storm jib that I am not aware?


Read some of the Coast Guard rescue threads on this forum. One of the common elements is lack of storm sails and shredded/jammed roller furling sails, no electricity, and disabled engine. The crew is scared, the boat is out of control, and the captain activates the EPIRB. All of this could have been prevented with storm sails onboard (and some balls).

Whether you need a storm jib really depends on how and where you use your boat. Many casual weekend sailors, the same who almost always have roller furling, seem to sail only on a reach in pleasant conditions (with the boom centered); otherwise, they are motoring. They rarely sail upwind in uncomfortable conditions, and usually motor dead downwind because they lack symmetrical spinnakers and/or are afraid of gybing. Go out sailing on a beautiful day and the majority of the sailboats will be motoring somewhere.

Circumnavigators may spend most of their time riding the tradewinds downwind, but coastal cruisers are not so fortunate. I seem to spend 90% of my time either beating upwind into waves or running downwind on my trips. You never know what you will be sailing in. I prefer hank-on jibs and carry a storm jib. You may never need it, but it is a small investment for safety in the worst conditions. Imagine the day you may need to sail away from a lee shore in heavy winds, or at least gain some control over the motion of your boat, and your engine is disabled. If nothing else, it will give yo some peace of mind if you do any kind of serious sailing.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Construction of 'storm sails':
Usually twice the material 'weight' of normal conditions sails.
Usually triple stitched (or even quadruple stitched) AND the seams are additionally glued before sewing.
The 'best' will have small triangular reinforcing 'patches' on each of the seams that terminate at the leech; and, possibly will have a small hand-sewn 'rope' added to the leech for additional strength and protection. 
..... because of the strength requirements vs. 'flogging', when tacking/gybing ..... or luffing during such high wind conditions. A 'bombproof sail'.

The sail SHAPE as cut will be very different from a sail used in 'normal' conditions. There are essentially THREE curvatures inbuilt to any sail - luff entry shape, luff hollow shape, and draft position.
• The position of maximum draft in a high wind sail is usually 'well forward' of the normal 30-40% of a 'normal sail' ... to compensate for the increase of adverse helm due to excessive heeling. In any sail, where the point of maximum draft occurs is due to 'broadseaming' (in a cross cut sail) - the tapering/curving of the edges of the panels before sewing; the front of each panel is always narrower than the leech end and the taper is 'curved' so that the sail becomes 'rounded' at the point of maximum draft.
• A foresail is ALWAYS curved vertically along its luff - to compensate for 'wire stretch or sag', the higher the wind pressure, the more sag is expected hence more 'luff hollow' is cut from the leading edge. Mess up that well predictable relationship of wire sag and 'luff hollow' and the boat will skid to leeward instead of beating to windward ... and will include/mimics BODACEOUS weather helm.
• Luff entry shape - the relative flattness or roundness of the luff section of the sail -- from the luff going back for a few % of the sail's cord length. This is where the maximum 'suction peak' (Bernoulli) occurs in a sail ---- right behind the luff, when sailing upwind/aerodynamically. The 'flatter' the luff entry, the more precise the helmsman must be as the sail will have a very narrow operating range of 'angle of attack'; if this range is exceeded then luffing or separating. A more 'rounded' entry will result in a more 'forgiving' sail through a wider range of angle of attack. Storm sails have very 'rounded' luff entry shapes - makes it easier for the helmsman. The higher the wind speed or the maximum speed of the boat, the 'rounder' the luff entry .... VERY rounded for a VERY fast boat or VERY fast wind speeds.

In comparison to a sail on a furler and all rolled up .... all these 'curvatures' are all rolled up inside the furled sail !!!!!!!! Normally you can only 'roll up' a sail by ~30%; after that you only have FLAT shapes exposed. 
Try beating or clawing off a lee shore, get out of the way of a ship, etc. etc. with a dead-flat sail, your sphincter will probably be beginning to 'pucker'. The sail efficiency will be dismal , your tacking angles will be beyond dismal AND youll need much more exposed surface area and thus more heeling moment to boot. 
The typical experience will be for a boat that can tack through 80-90° during normal conditions ... when 'furled' beyond that 30% sail area reduction will 'probably' only be able to tack through 120° during stink condition - maybe.

IMO - In real stink conditions, its better to sooner go to a deeper reef (& maybe a headsail change) --- with LOTS of draft to drive the boat through waves ---- than to sit there with lots of FLAT sail all rolled-up and go nowhere without any speed while heeled waaaaay over fighting 'weather helm' and only left with 'lousy tacking angles'. In BIG waves you need POWER (1st gear); power comes from draft; Flat sails are for sailing fast (high gear) in FLAT water.

Rx - a roller furled sail will have all the important 'curvatures' rolled up inside when furled beyond that 30% roll-up.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Lots of consistently good, but also varied responses in this thread. The consistent info works for everyone: storm sails are more strongly built and cut differently from those used in better conditions. The varied answers show how each boat and situation can be a little different. What works will depend upon the balance of the boat, the sails, the wind, the waves, the course, and the crew. It can be quite a balancing act.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Gregrosine said:


> With very limited experience I ask this question. If you have a furling jib why do you need a storm jib? Doesn't just partially furling your jib do the same as a storm jib? Or is there some other quality of the storm jib that I am not aware?


No, you are correct. One does not need a storm jib.
It would be impossible in a blow to drop the genoa and raise a storm jib anyway.

They are old fashioned sails made for the time before furlers. Back then, each time the wind changed strength you needed to pull down the sail you had up and put up a nother sail... Until the wind got right up and you were changing from a No3 to a storm jib.

Roller Furling is an unsung hero of the increased popularity of couples cruising long distance. It really must have been a pain to change sails in the old days. Even on race boats when i was a kid, at night, in the cold my fingers unhanking sails was a misery.

I love my genoa furled. The shape is great, the drive is excellent and its so easy to pull it in or drop a few more feet out. Just wonderful. I would laugh at any suggestion to use a storm jib.

Mark


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

storm sails are great as are small jibs for over 30 knot winds...honestly its just depends on how you learned to sail and what you prefer at this point...

roller furlers are great..but they have shortcomings...and like already mentioned they are by far not the best for sail shape in high winds especially production furlers for common cruising boats not talking racig open 70s here

2. with hank ons you always always have a back up and specific sail for specific scenario.


3. with an inner stay or solent stay preferabbly removable and easy to attach with a realease clip you have redundancy and you also back up the rig, especially if you have running backs that hep the mast from pumping and breaking stuff.

and lastly sail shape

there are really really nice blades out there made that can handle 50knots plus and maintain that shape you need to sail....

a furled up genny way out there up front is nothing more than a storm rider aka anti rolling mechanism...they absolutely positively suck for fighting a lee shore...also like mentioned affect helm quite badly and since they dont have the correct shape basically all you are doing is inducing heel

I have also noticed the tendency on cruising boats to furl when the wind is already way up(kind of like reefing too late) and this causes all sorts of issues with parts breaking.

paired this with te tendency to haul in the boom midships and the not wanting to heel too much syndrome most cruisers today have what happens today is most people turn the damn engine on to ride out storms instead of doing what the boat is designed to do.

some boats fair heavy weather better than others and sail better angles but any boat should be able to sail in heavy winds...its a matter of finding what your boat likes...

personally Ill be adding an inner forestay...removable since there is a track midships...just a matter of connecting a tang up the mast...

my boat came with a storm jib and small 100 percenter...I have options too for light winds...

that doesnt mean that I wouldnt enjoy a furler, especially now that the wife will be sailing with me...anyting to help her out...

cheers


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

Gregrosine said:


> With very limited experience I ask this question. If you have a furling jib why do you need a storm jib? Doesn't just partially furling your jib do the same as a storm jib? Or is there some other quality of the storm jib that I am not aware?


As long as you stay close enough to a safe harbor to start the engine and run for it if the wind kicks up, you probably do not need a storm jib. Having said that, the first time you find yourself offshore in a real blow without one, you will know the answer.

The only option might be to lie ahull with no sails up at all. Otherwise you risk the roller furled jib blowing out. There are those who claim that rollers are perfectly acceptable nowadays but I have seen too many unfurl and be blown to ribbons *in the marina* or jam on a daysail to ever trust one offshore.

Just my opinion based on personal experience. YMMV


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Looks like you've received some good answers to your question. Furl it too much and it's no longer really a sail. They become inefficient very quickly.

I'm a neighbor of your's up here in Muskegon and have four decades of experience on Lake Michigan on boats of various sizes. 

On a boat like yours, for day sailing and occasional longer excursions on the Great Lakes, I see no reason for a true storm jib. You pretty much pick your weather, and you're never too far from the next port. 

On the Catalina 309 that I recently sold, I had a 150 furling genoa and a furling main. Oh...and an asymmetrical spinnaker that I seldom used. I often wished I had a 135 furling genoa that I could swap out with the 150, as I often found myself overpowered, and if I found myself under-powered, no amount of extra sail was going to do much good.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Good descriptions above about the strength of a storm sail. Designing for headstay sag is very important. Rolling up a larger sail works to a point but then the shape gets completely thrown out of whack and you wind up beating the heck out of your good headsail. 

A better place for a storm jib is on an inside stay designed for the purpose and working with a trys'l, both sails operating on a lower set of stays and shrouds. This puts the center of effort closer to the mast and not way out on the bow. It adapts the whole rig to the dangerous conditions. Storm jibs also need a high foot so as to stay away from water coming on deck. While seldom to never used, having a storm rig is a basic safety item designed so as to never find the need to push the button on the EPIRB.

It seems that there have been plenty of instances followed right here on this forum of people abandoning boats that could well have hunkered down, heaved-to and ridden out conditions if they were equipped with storm sails.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Gregrosine said:


> With very limited experience I ask this question. If you have a furling jib why do you need a storm jib? Doesn't just partially furling your jib do the same as a storm jib? Or is there some other quality of the storm jib that I am not aware?


No. A partially rolled up headsail becomes inefficient very quickly. You simply can't point worth a darn. I recall tacking back and forth between England and France making no headway for way too long. Rolling up the jib and (painfully) putting up a staysail on an inner forestay made all the difference in the world in terms of both progress and comfort.



bill cartwright said:


> It is your choice, But I would not go off shore without one in my stores along with several other items. I wish you fair winds..


Based on my experience, a storm jib in your sail locker is of limited utility. A removable inner forestay reaps huge benefits in this regard. Inshore and coastal you just sail with a 135 or 100 on the furler. Heading offshore you rig the inner forestay and rig the staysail/storm jib, including running sheets. When conditions are bad you roll up the headsail and fly the staysail/storm jib.



MarkofSeaLife said:


> No, you are correct. One does not need a storm jib.
> It would be impossible in a blow to drop the genoa and raise a storm jib anyway.


I disagree. If everything is ready to go it isn't hard at all. BTDT. If you have to hump sails along the deck in a blow then you are certainly correct. The easy answer is not to do that. I don't leave port headed offshore without storm sails ready to go, on deck, hanked on, lashed down, and sheets run.

A partially furled headsail simply doesn't point well, no matter how much you crank in on the backstay.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

The orange is cute
With center of effort moved aft with sail on removable inner stay boat will balance and even hove to.
Forces on mast where running back stays are. Must less force on mast,
Not difficult to tack in big wind.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

But listen to Killarney . It's STORM jib. What's the odds you are going to see a storm ? We comfortably sail in 40 + with a couple of rolls in Solent and 2nd or third reefed main depending on point of sail. Spend money on third reef and bullet proof head sail system. Or on Jordan series rogue. Then drop the rags deploy it and be safe down below if you are caught in the middle of the lake with huge distance to shore.
Listen to SVA- stay is rigged and sail yanked on with sail tie to hold it down neatly before you leave offshore. Don't bother with rigging third reef coastal either. Just an unnecessary long string on the sail.
Thread has much wisdom from experienced people. Only other thing some transits/ races may require stuff like this but for cruisers like you and me not relevant . I have storm jib but not try sail. Wisdom of that could be discussed and would be interesting.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

outbound said:


> .............. What's the odds you are going to see a storm ? .......


It all very much depends on WHERE you do most of your sailing and what weather 'surprises' are customary in your immediate locale.

My home base is the Chesapeake which at its southern end near towards "Hatteras" is renown for generating its own and sometimes unpredicted and sometimes very severe and long lasting weather. Twice, once entering near the Virginia Capes and once already inside the VA capes, I have experienced 'blue holes' BOMB right on top of me. A 4-5 mile in diameter crystal clear blue 'hole' open up on top of me and which had the 'traditional' ~F10+ (55-60 kt+) wind wall at its edges. Damn little wind, but WAVES, on the inside of the 'hole', and these LOW centers do move so you have to either move with and inside of them or take an absolute 'drubbing' if you decide to pass through the 'howling wind wall', .... if there is enough sea room to do so. Getting 'caught' in one of these suddenly appearing 'blue holes' may take MANY hours to pass through and many miles of 'blammo' until thing settle down; like 6-8 or more hours. The second time this happened I hove to on a triple reefed main ... and waited it out for 5-6 hours while the tide pushed me north further into and 'up' the Chesapeake.

I sail a 'heavy' cutter rig, my staysail has the ability of a deep reef in place of a storm jib; I can a triple reef instead of using a trysl.

With suddenly and unexpected forming LOW PRESSURE cells all the winds 'enter' towards the center of these 'weather bombs'; therefore, you CANNOT sail 'downwind' to get OUT of one and you must be able to 'beat your way out' if you dont have the 'sea-room'. If you expect to go close hauled to exit OUT of such a weather BOMB, youd better have correct gear and sail combos and be able to deep reef AND 'point'. You simply cannot affect an 'exit' from the center of a surprise LOW center by sailing 'downwind' as downwind is always towards the exact very center of a rapidly forming LOW pressure cell, ... most do not have 'benign' centers such as 'blue holes'. NOAA does a 'rotten' job of predicting 'weather bombs' because of the 'immense difficulty of such prediction'.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Rich I'm with you on this which is why I have a storm jib. Also note in some respects severe weather in coastal setting may be more dangerous than off shore. No running room off lee shore. Depths less than 8x wave height so breaking and stacked up. Waves reflecting off shore. Confused winds due to channeling in bays rivers or deflected by hills islands mountains. Also inability to see local weather coming at you like you may be able to offshore.
Having said that was thinking about O P in my reply. Don't think there are micro bursts,white gales etc. commonly in those waters but may be wrong Know they can see extreme weather but thought it was seasonal.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I think it matters if we are talking about a sloop or a cutter (or sloop with an inner stay). If you have the latter it is easy to put up a staysail or storm jib if you want. If you have a sloop this is a very,very hard thing to do with serious wind (55+ knots). I know, I have tried. It is even worse if it part of a storm with building seas. The seas will do their damned best to take the sail overboard and you only have two hands and feet to control it (and hold on). You can make progress to windward with a severely furled genoa. Your pointing angle will not be great but it will work. I have done this too. 

There is no one answer to this question. It depends on the boat, the situation, the competence of the crew. I agree with Mark, the people out there sailing around the world, including the nasty bits like around South Africa are not climbing around the foredeck changing sails. Mostly they are set up to hoist a small sail on an inner stay, but lots only have one forward stay and virtually all have furling and do not change sails.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Outb - 

Chesapeake and Cape Hatteras can be VERY snotty pieces of water at times ... as I stated this area is very prone to make its own sudden weather. 

Strong Micro bursts, small tornadoes and white squalls are just as common there as anywhere else ... its just worse in late autumn when the warm water/air is still coming from the Gulf Stream and it collides smack into a cold front / equinoctial gale from the north country.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

RichH said:


> Outb -
> 
> Chesapeake and Cape Hatteras can be VERY snotty pieces of water at times ... as I stated this area is very prone to make its own sudden weather.
> 
> Strong Micro bursts, small tornadoes and white squalls are just as common there as anywhere else ... its just worse in late autumn when the warm water/air is still coming from the Gulf Stream and it collides smack into a cold front / equinoctial gale from the north country.


I've always thought right about now is generally the worst time of the year to be anywhere in the vicinity of Hatteras, I think it's even more unpredictable than in the late fall/early winter... Looks like we may have an example of that in the next day or two...

Did you hear about that boat abandoned on their way to from FL to Bermuda, about a week or 2 ago? Although sounds like the weather was not the determining factor, still seems like they were awfully early in the season to be making that trip, no?

Swedes arrive ashore in Delaware after rescue from sinking sailboat off Bermuda

I'm with you and outbound - while a storm jib may not necessarily be "essential", it might sure fit pretty nicely into the "Nice to have" category, at times...


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Microbursts, tornadoes etc have nothing to do with storm sails. If you see one coming or get hit by one you furl/drop all sail.

Those short duration things are just waited out. 

As I think I ofter try to reinforce: Only sail in the correct season.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

OP is from Michigan . Sails Lake Michigan. In summer. Not Edmond Fitzgerald. Small coastal boat. Looks to be a fine boat but he isn't doing cape hat fear good hope etc. just saying


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

killarney_sailor said:


> I think it matters if we are talking about a sloop or a cutter (or sloop with an inner stay). If you have the latter it is easy to put up a staysail or storm jib if you want. If you have a sloop this is a very,very hard thing to do with serious wind (55+ knots).


Fully agree. My input wasn't sufficiently clear that it is based on a removable inner stay.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

One BIG problem with storm jibs as Mark from Sealife has already mentioned is would you want to go up on the foredeck to rig and hoist it in the conditions where you NEED it.

I carried a storm jib and trysail for years and never used them. 

The one real storm I had to deal with was on the way to the Canaries and I had plenty of sea room so just rolled the fairly HD genoa to pocket hanky size and reefed the mizzen to heave to.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Going offshore or not is the determining factor in whether it's worth having storm sails or not. I keep storm sails aboard hoping never to have to use them. As stated above, they are a safety item for extended storm conditions as is the sea anchor or drogue. The only situation I can imagine taking the time to set everything up is having a good idea that a long period of really bad weather is approaching, a large storm that cannot be avoided and can't be sailed through. I wouldn't be thinking about making headway, only surviving intact. Can't imagine the case for dragging out storm sails anywhere inshore but if traveling the East Coast offshore, as in New England to Bermuda or Florida to Caribbean, having storm sails is probably a good idea. As far as rigging sails when the wind is already 50 knots, forget it. Storm sails need to be put up way before needed. Why would anyone wait for a storm to be upon them before rigging the storm sails? We're not talking a short blast but a long period of bad weather.

Although most of us are good at forecasting and staying OUT of life threatening weather, there is the chance of getting caught by that storm that comes out of nowhere.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

"I've always thought right about now is generally the worst time of the year to be anywhere in the vicinity of Hatteras, I think it's even more unpredictable than in the late fall/early winter... Looks like we may have an example of that in the next day or two...

Did you hear about that boat abandoned on their way to from FL to Bermuda, about a week or 2 ago? Although sounds like the weather was not the determining factor, still seems like they were awfully early in the season to be making that trip, no? ....... "



Why anyone would be sailing well offshore in the notorious wintertime North Atlantic, simply amazes me; especially THIS year, with its predominant strong NORTHERLY winds (blowing against the north setting flow of the Gulf Stream, yikes!)


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

TQA said:


> One BIG problem with storm jibs as Mark from Sealife has already mentioned is would you want to go up on the foredeck to rig and hoist it in the conditions where you NEED it.
> 
> I carried a storm jib and trysail for years and never used them.
> 
> The one real storm I had to deal with was on the way to the Canaries and I had plenty of sea room so just rolled the fairly HD genoa to pocket hanky size and reefed the mizzen to heave to.


Right. On my sloop with a removable inner forestay I rig the inner stay and hank on the bagged staysail at the dock before heading offshore. Sheets are run and a holddown keeps the sail from climbing up the stay.

With a heavy 110 jib on the furler (I don't go offshore with our light 135) we put all three reefs in the main before starting to roll up the jib. Since I have done a number of "gear shifts" from the jib rolled to about 85% to the staysail I can say with no question that the boat performs better and is more comfortable with the staysail up.

It is my experience that a headsail rolled down to a hankie isn't a sail anymore - it's just windage. If your storm tactic is to heave to that may not make a difference but if you're moving the boat and trying to keep loads down a smaller sail with CE closer to the center of motion is a good thing (TM).

Don't get me started on the idiocy of a GaleSail - the worst of worlds with the addition of some more bad stuff from an alternate dimension.



smurphny said:


> Storm sails need to be put up way before needed. Why would anyone wait for a storm to be upon them before rigging the storm sails? We're not talking a short blast but a long period of bad weather.


Agreed. Rig at the dock, hoist early.

Leaving Ft Lauderdale for the Bahamas or San Diego for Catalina is easy - you just don't leave if the weather is forecast to be bad. Newport to BVI or Bermuda to Azores or San Fransisco to Hawaii is a different kettle of fish, except on my boat - I can't catch a single fish much less a kettle. *grin*


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

SVA- think your way is the right way and was taught to do that way as well. For kicks and giggles may want to trail a surface lure and a deep diver off Cuban yo -yo's from either side aft. Gives you something to play with when your bored and you may be surprised and catch dinner. If you do keep a billy in the cockpit. big fish in sailboats don't get along well.


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## ABH3 Boyer (Sep 27, 2012)

I use my storm jib a few times per year as a fair weather sailor. Usually when the wind is blowing over 20 knots. Keeps me on the water sailing a little longer and keeps my guests from ****ting their pants. helps with control and heeling.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Yes, Newport to Bermuda is definitely a lot different than a one day crossing to Bimini. I guess the relative accuracy of weather forecasts, going out day by day is the guiding factor. Anything much more than 2 days out gets into the "almost anything can happen" category as far as weather forecasting although it seems to have become a LOT better in the last ten years.

I actually did hoist up my storm jib this winter....at anchor.....on a calm day....to see what it looked like with the pretty orange corner patches I sewed on and to make sure the runners and forestay were all still ready to go. Hate to admit it but I have never actually sailed in a good blow with the trysail and storm jib. Have to take it out some day when the wind is really blowing and rig it up.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

One thing I've always wondered about the hank on storm jib and hank on staysail arrangement (and I know that they're technically different but for many boats they are the same sail) is why the hank on?

Every book with "wisdom" in it says the big sail up front can be on a furler but because furlers break, the staysail must be the hank on type. But isn't the furler malfunction that everybody is worried about that the sail will suddenly and fully UNFURL? Isn't that what we want when we deploy the storm sail?

Why send tired and seasick crew out to wrestle the bag of sail in storm conditions when you could just unfurl the sail? Seems to me that if it's furler malfunction and unfurling that one is worried about then the genoa should be hanked on and the staysail be the one on the furler...

As for bringing the sail back in, say to run under bare poles, I don;t think there is much argument that getting the hanked on sail down is easier than furling one up. Malfunction while trying to furl it up you say? Also possible, but an unfurled sail can be brought down from a furler headstay and coincidentally the procedure is just about the same as one would do with a hank on sail.

I must be missing something...

MedSailor


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

bringing down a ripped furler is anything but 1000 gazillion percent harder than a hank on...

I remember seing boats come in wuth torn and stuck furlers ripped to shreds and basically the consensus was you had to leave it there cause it was your only option till you got to a port or dock where you could safely bring it down

bringing down a storm sail is as easy as it gets release halyard and clap your hands and sumo down the sail

of course Im saying this is a relatively young person still and that is my bias towards hank ons...simplicity first...

anywhoo


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

MedSailor said:


> One thing I've always wondered about the hank on storm jib and hank on staysail arrangement (and I know that they're technically different but for many boats they are the same sail) is why the hank on?
> 
> Every book with "wisdom" in it says the big sail up front can be on a furler but because furlers break, the staysail must be the hank on type. But isn't the furler malfunction that everybody is worried about that the sail will suddenly and fully UNFURL? Isn't that what we want when we deploy the storm sail?
> 
> ...


Would love to have a furler on my inner stay but the cost for me is prohibitive. Between the quick release turnbuckle and the furler, it's big bucks. Many of the boats I have observed recently have inner stay furlers. They also have what look to be permanent inner stays. I don't know how they get a genny to tack through and assume they must have to send someone up to the bow or roll it in and reset??


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yeoup...


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Looks like the good people over at Harken make a STAYSAIL furler that doesn't need it's own stay.

Imagine one of the new continuous line furlers for gennakers and code zeros, but beefed up and designed for a staysail. All the ease of furling and unfurling your storm sail and the ease of the removable stay WITH the ease of taking the whole mess down by releasing the halyard.

Harken staysail furlers
Harken staysail furler detailed info

More toys to love.....


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

now were talking! jajajaja


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Looks like ProFurl makes several, and theirs can be used for storm sails or gennakers. Hmmm.... that means (if you can afford it) you could use the same gear for each of your optional sails. Gennaker, A-sail, staysail, storm jib. 

Since this item "can" be used for each different type of sail, I wonder if you could use one unit, and switch it from sail to sail. I know you can do with with some other brands, and all you need is a separate anti-torsion rope for each sail.

How fun would it be to only have to purchase one of these units and you could use it for both your asymmetric spinnaker AND your staysail/storm jib. The difference in conditions is such that you'd never want to be using both at the same time so it could work.

Profurl's staysail/spinnaker furler
Promo Video for Profurl Furler

MedSailor


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

smurphny said:


> Would love to have a furler on my inner stay but the cost for me is prohibitive. Between the quick release turnbuckle and the furler, it's big bucks. Many of the boats I have observed recently have inner stay furlers. They also have what look to be permanent inner stays. I don't know how they get a genny to tack through and assume they must have to send someone up to the bow or roll it in and reset??


I think that you are talking about a Solent stay setup. I think the general idea is that you furl the genoa (outer stay) to tack or gybe. Also the inner stay does not hold anything resembling a storm jib. More likely something like a 100% and it is a full height sail. We are thinking about putting on a Solent stay but we would still hoist the storm jib (probably get rid of the staysail), All it takes is money. When you talk to people who have been cruising full-time for years and no one has actually used their storm jib, it is hard to justify the cost of one of those fancy removable furlers. Heck, we bought our storm jib used at Bacon for $150 - judging by the condition I don't think the last guy used it either.


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## abarth (Apr 17, 2012)

bill cartwright said:


> ... A roller furling sail is light weight for one and puts the center of effort too far forward which reduces the ability to control the boat. Idealily it would be closer to the main in a staysail type of installation which would give better control ...





smurphny said:


> ...This puts the center of effort closer to the mast and not way out on the bow...





outbound said:


> ...With center of effort moved aft with sail on removable inner stay boat will balance and even hove to... Must less force on mast,Not difficult to tack in big wind.


But, from 'Sailboat Rigs According to Perry, by Bob Perry' on SailFarLiveFree site:
"Generally the mast of a sloop is further forward than that of a cutter so there is little room in the fore triangle to jam another jib. But I understand the appeal of the staysail for heavy air. It's very convenient. I also like to see the sail area forward for a blow. When the boat is on its ear it will build up weather helm. Keeping sail area forward will help. If I owned a sloop and I wanted to carry a staysail for heavy air I would locate the tack of the staysail as far forward as possible, right on the stem fitting if there was room for it (There usually isn't). I'd locate the hounds for the staysail at the upper spreader if I had two spreaders. This would be what I call a "Solent rig". It's pretty much changing the rig from masthead geometry to fractional geometry and it keeps the center of pressure forward."

Is this notion of getting the center of effort back with a storm jib is at odds with Mr Perry? Am I not understanding this thread, Bob or both?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> Going offshore or not is the determining factor in whether it's worth having storm sails or not. I keep storm sails aboard hoping never to have to use them. As stated above, they are a safety item for extended storm conditions as is the sea anchor or drogue. The only situation I can imagine taking the time to set everything up is having a good idea that a long period of really bad weather is approaching, a large storm that cannot be avoided and can't be sailed through. I wouldn't be thinking about making headway, only surviving intact. Can't imagine the case for dragging out storm sails anywhere inshore but if traveling the East Coast offshore, as in New England to Bermuda or Florida to Caribbean, having storm sails is probably a good idea. As far as rigging sails when the wind is already 50 knots, forget it. Storm sails need to be put up way before needed. Why would anyone wait for a storm to be upon them before rigging the storm sails? We're not talking a short blast but a long period of bad weather.
> 
> Although most of us are good at forecasting and staying OUT of life threatening weather, there is the chance of getting caught by that storm that comes out of nowhere.


It's certainly true that most of us have rarely used our storm sails 'in anger'... That's probably true for our liferafts, as well - but it's still not hard for me to imagine a situation where the latter might easily qualify as a 'Nice to have' item aboard... 

I still think that one of the best arguments in favor of having a trysail and storm jib aboard for ocean passagemaking, would be in the event of a dismasting... With a roller furling headsail, there's a good probability you might have to watch much of your working sail inventory disappear beneath the waves, if you had to cut away the rig quickly in heavy weather. Storm sails are more appropriately sized for whatever jury rig you might be able to cobble together, and might easily make the difference between being able to perform a self rescue, or having to flag down the nearest ship participating in the AMVER program... I'll bet more than a couple of boats abandoned after a dismasting, were compelled to do so largely because they had no usable sails remaining after the rig had to be cut free...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I made up a mast hound that sits about 3' above the spreaders. It creates a "3 legged stool" so to speak, with the two Dyneema runners and removable inner forestay. The three stays all sit tight to the mast when not in use with the forestay wrapped on a arc at the mast base and tied to a deck eye. The idea is to lower the entire rig, making the upper mast and main stays essentially irrelevant. The structure has the lower shrouds, forestay, and runners supporting a small number of square feet of sails. Balancing the try and storm jib could be an issue, I understand the logic of getting the jib forward, but I have reef points in both sails to be able to adjust this. Of course the trys'l is adjustable via how much it's sheeted as well. I see the objective of the whole idea as avoiding having sails that become overpowered, uncontrollable, and eventually shredded to pieces. Maintaining control of the boat in big seas and wind has to be the main objective, forereaching a bit or heaving-to in order to avoid getting broadside to big breaking waves which are really the only enemy.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> One thing I've always wondered about the hank on storm jib and hank on staysail arrangement (and I know that they're technically different but for many boats they are the same sail) is why the hank on?
> 
> Every book with "wisdom" in it says the big sail up front can be on a furler but because furlers break, the staysail must be the hank on type. But isn't the furler malfunction that everybody is worried about that the sail will suddenly and fully UNFURL? Isn't that what we want when we deploy the storm sail?
> 
> ...


I sailed my boat for a few years with a hanked-on headsail, then eventually made the switch to a furler, and have never looked back... For me, staysail on a furler is a far superior arrangement, I'd dread having to back to the more 'conventional' setup...

However, I think this depends a great deal upon the boat you sail. A boat as small as mine, by the time the breeze is up to the point where you want to switch gears from the genoa to staysail, working on the foredeck can be difficult and not without a bit of risk. Particularly when your working area on the foredeck is reduced to a considerable extent by my dinghy stowed on deck, between the inner forestay and the mast... So, as counter-intuitive as this may sound, I think a hanked-on staysail actually makes a bit more sense on larger boats, where the motion in sporty conditions won't be quite as sharp, and you'd likely have a more spacious platform on which to work...

Having a furling staysail is akin to having an automatic transmission, it's effortless to switch gears when the time comes to do so. Especially when the time to do so seems to so often come at night  I'm not necessarily resistant to leaving the cockpit/going forward, I still prefer to reef my main at the mast, after all. And, even though I still have a preference for driving a stick shift, I've come to love the ability to switch gears from headsail to staysail without having to make the trip forward...

Dave on AUSPICIOUS thinks the Gale Sail is idiotic, so count me as one of those idiots who carries one  Mine has worked fine in the couple of times I've tried it, but I agree that I think there can be a huge difference between setting one on the headstay, as most likely will, and hoisting it on an inner forestay... All things considered, it's an acceptable compromise for me, others' mileage may vary. It greatly helps having a 'sleeve' of slippery material like Stamoid around the bottom of the furled staysail up to the height of the clew in hoisting a Gale Sail, and you want to have such a sleeve in place anyway to help protect the staysail from chafe from the lazy genoa sheet, anyway... You've got to remember to remove that in anticipation of heavier weather, otherwise you'll have to go forward to remove it before changing down from the headsail to the staysail...

Biggest downside to conventional furling on an inner stay, of course, is of you're short stacking the genoa... If possible, you want to be able to stow the staysail back hear the shrouds, but that will generally require a bit more sheer and deck camber than most boats possess... I'm lucky, I'm just able to make it...










The continuous line furlers for a staysail or storm sail can be a viable alternative, but the real downside is the inability to reef them... With a well-built staysail on a conventional furler, you still have the ability to adjust to a wide range of conditions before having to strike it and go to a storm jib or bare poles, and I have a good deal of confidence in the effectiveness of my staysail in dealing with a decent blow...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

RichH said:


> "I've always thought right about now is generally the worst time of the year to be anywhere in the vicinity of Hatteras, I think it's even more unpredictable than in the late fall/early winter... Looks like we may have an example of that in the next day or two...
> 
> Did you hear about that boat abandoned on their way to from FL to Bermuda, about a week or 2 ago? Although sounds like the weather was not the determining factor, still seems like they were awfully early in the season to be making that trip, no? ....... "
> 
> Why anyone would be sailing well offshore in the notorious wintertime North Atlantic, simply amazes me; especially THIS year, with its predominant strong NORTHERLY winds (blowing against the north setting flow of the Gulf Stream, yikes!)


Hey, they're _Swedish_, after all... 'Nuff said 

Perhaps they were lulled into complacency after talking with family and friends back home? Scandinavia as experienced a remarkably mild winter, after all... 

Well, at least they did one thing right - sounds like they used their life raft to make the transfer to the ship, rather than attempting to step up right from the boat itself... A real shame, they seemed like quite capable sailors, and that looks like a pretty nice boat. But unless they were planning on lingering in Bermuda for a good while, damn, this would have been awfully early to be heading back across the pond to northern Europe...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Bunch of back and forth has been interesting. We have a 130 all the way forward, Then a 90 solent about a foot back. Both are on oversized furlers. Then a fitting anchored to the watertight bulk head 7' back from the bow. When heading offshore a dyneema stay is attached to that fitting and made tight. Use a Johnson device the Winchard is pretty but crazy money. The top of that dyneema stay is at the level of the running backstays which are not commonly used but set up and ready to deploy in a minute should need arise ( fittings with backing plates and block/cleat etc. always available). Runners with be set up if storm sail goes up. Think it good for the mast and good for stay tension. Carl Schumacher and Phil Lambert thought this set up out really well for this boat and its a common set up on a lot boats I see with minor variations. Say what you want but it seems to work for a lot of sailors on a lot of different brands of boats.
Genny - light air or off wind to 25k
solent- good to up to 35k-40k ( keeps shape with 20-30% in- good full to ~30-5k)
But if going to be beat up for a while have the storm jib. Like others have it on the stay before leaving with sheets run. Simple sail tie with slipper knot keeps it down. Can run small stuff to tie and give a yank to free sail. Halyard already brought aft ( de rig spinnaker stuff and use for storm sail.)
Although a masthead rig boat balances. Set things up with a pedant at bottom so storm jib starts ~2' above deck so not hit much by green water.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

outbound do you have pics of your setup? I like your setup


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks CH- Boat on hard now getting generator put in and re working plumbing for aft head. Splashing first week of May. If I remember ( old timer's disease) with shoot it to you as a PM. Think wife may have taken a snap when we rigged storm jib the first time. Will ask her.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

We have one on Zzzoom and it has come in handy on the ocean south of Long Island in 40 something knots and breakings seas 


Among the more important features is the VERY HIGH CUT clew which allows huge amounts of water to pass over the deck without causing damage

VS are perhaps 85% jib that we also have which can take a huge HIT from breaking water


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I will add to this discussion with the following: IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE BOAT.

For example, I have a sloop. I have tried beating with a jib (not a storm jib) into a strong gale (we saw storm force). Terrible leward helm and terrible sail shape. To get any shape out of the sail, we had to pull out more than we wanted and still got a really harmonic vibrating from the clew to several feet in that would surely have taken its toll over time and likely torn out the sail. In addition, when I balanced it with the main, we were going too fast. The best solution for my boat was to reef in the main and beat with the main only. Another huge plus of that is it is a lot easier on the crew. Tacks are simple, fast, and can be planned. However, my boat has its mast forward especially far, even for a sloop. It puts the center of effort closer to the center with just a bit of weather helm... perfect! Other boats are set up differently and with the mast further back, it creates a lot of weather helm that has to be balanced or it is hard on the rudder/autopilot. In that case, something like a storm jib (especially if on an inner) makes a lot of sense. 

I agree with pretty much everything Jon and SV Auspicious said (exception to follow). But they have an inner, and I do not. On the Tayana, we have a permanent inner with RF. We keep a a very heavy sail on there (not sure if it would completely count as a storm jib). However, with the RF the inner stays permanently mounted. That makes tacking a right pain in the butt as the jib/genoa always wants to get hung upon the inner unless you really fall through with the tack. For the typical conditions most sailors ever see, it makes it frustrating to sail. I have always thought a removable with hank on was the best way to go. However, I can see why Jon would not do that as he singles his boat. 

The gale sail makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Too much effort forward to make to weather in strong conditions and would create a very heavy leward helm. I have always considered a leward helm a great danger in high seas. Of course, you can balance that out with the main, but once again your options are limited to the size of the gale sail and you may again find yourself going too fast down the wave and burying the bow in the trough (happened to us crossing the gulf). We literally were taking water into the cockpit from the wave some 40 feet back. It ripped off one diesel can (a real good reason NOT to tie them to lifelines) and I suspect would have had its way with the rest had we not slowed the boat down. It was dangerous and hard on the rigging. To me, the jib is best used for running conditions where the shape of the sail really makes no great difference. The ability to reef that in to size, from the safety of the cockpit, makes sense. Of course, I have an inmast main so I live on the wild side according to you guys anyways!!!!

Brian


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Brian as usual you make very good points and whole heartedly agree it depends on the boat. Only thing I would add is you don't know this stuff unless you deploy these sails and sail combos. In the past ( and continuing) I've always deployed safety gear before actually needing it. Have crawled into my raft when inflated for re packing. Similarly when I've had the luxury of crew and there was a good wind even if not a gale let alone a storm have tried out storm tactics. Hate to find out the first time I really need my new storm jib on my new boat the sheets don't run right or there is some other type of screw up. Nice to know if she will hove too or fore reach. Nice to know will she round up and broach in a strong wind or not. Think a lot of tears could be avoided if mom and pops like me did the same.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

MedSailor said:


> One thing I've always wondered about the hank on storm jib and hank on staysail arrangement (and I know that they're technically different but for many boats they are the same sail) is why the hank on?


Mostly cost I suspect.



MedSailor said:


> As for bringing the sail back in, say to run under bare poles, I don;t think there is much argument that getting the hanked on sail down is easier than furling one up. Malfunction while trying to furl it up you say? Also possible, but an unfurled sail can be brought down from a furler headstay and coincidentally the procedure is just about the same as one would do with a hank on sail.


In my experience one of the most common failures is a jam with a few wraps on the furler. Your options are: 1. watch the sail beat itself to death and hope nothing else bad happens, 2. send someone up to cut the sail away, or 3. cut the sail from the bottom up as far as you can reach and hope it tears away. None of those options are good. If you're lucky you can heave to and wait for conditions to settle so you can fix the furler.



abarth said:


> But, from 'Sailboat Rigs According to Perry, by Bob Perry' on SailFarLiveFree site:
> "Generally the mast of a sloop is further forward than that of a cutter so there is little room in the fore triangle to jam another jib. But I understand the appeal of the staysail for heavy air. It's very convenient. I also like to see the sail area forward for a blow. When the boat is on its ear it will build up weather helm. Keeping sail area forward will help. If I owned a sloop and I wanted to carry a staysail for heavy air I would locate the tack of the staysail as far forward as possible, right on the stem fitting if there was room for it (There usually isn't). I'd locate the hounds for the staysail at the upper spreader if I had two spreaders. This would be what I call a "Solent rig". It's pretty much changing the rig from masthead geometry to fractional geometry and it keeps the center of pressure forward."


I don't agree. Certainly heeling increases weather helm due to asymmetric hull form (the submerged hull generates lift, like an airplane wing or a rudder). The key is to reduce heel, which means reducing sail area--perhaps dramatically--with an emphasis on reducing sail area aft. Get the CE of the sail components as close to the center of motion as possible to make keeping up with changing conditions easier.



JonEisberg said:


> However, I think this depends a great deal upon the boat you sail. A boat as small as mine, by the time the breeze is up to the point where you want to switch gears from the genoa to staysail, working on the foredeck can be difficult and not without a bit of risk.


I absolutely agree that a lot depends on the boat, and staying off the foredeck is more important on smaller boats. Almost thirty years after last racing foredeck on a Chance 30-30 I _still_ have scars.

Like you, I reef the main at the mast so as long as I'm up there and the small staysail is rigged and sheets run hauling it up isn't a big deal even for my aging body.



JonEisberg said:


> Dave on AUSPICIOUS thinks the Gale Sail is idiotic, so count me as one of those idiots who carries one  Mine has worked fine in the couple of times I've tried it, but I agree that I think there can be a huge difference between setting one on the headstay, as most likely will, and hoisting it on an inner forestay... All things considered, it's an acceptable compromise for me, others' mileage may vary. It greatly helps having a 'sleeve' of slippery material like Stamoid around the bottom of the furled staysail up to the height of the clew in hoisting a Gale Sail, and you want to have such a sleeve in place anyway to help protect the staysail from chafe from the lazy genoa sheet, anyway... You've got to remember to remove that in anticipation of heavier weather, otherwise you'll have to go forward to remove it before changing down from the headsail to the staysail...


The Stamoid idea is interesting but I'm not sure relevant to most applications. On a sloop you have to roll up the headsail, drag the bagged Gale Sail over a heaving deck, put the sleeve on, and then be in two places at once to get the Gale Sail over the furled headsail and haul it up. I think there is a reason the advertising shows use in very benign conditions.

Getting to the halyard and the luff at once is easier on an inner stay, but if you have the Stamoid sleeve on you can't use the staysail, and if you have been using the staysail and roll it up you have to get the sleeve back on.

My biggest three issues with the Gale Sail are dragging the bag over the deck (a proper sail would either be hanked on and bagged or on a roller furler), the deployment issues of getting wet fabric to slide over wet fabric as you get the Gale Sail hanked on and then fastened, and the bulbous leading edge. I think there is a reason that the ATN videos are in less than 12 kts of wind and the demonstration is done by a hulking mid-20s foredeck crew.

I'd really like to hear more about your success Jon, as my view on them is poor and my single experience trying to deploy one was bad.



Cruisingdad said:


> I will add to this discussion with the following: IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE BOAT.


True as long as that isn't an excuse for not using the best information possible.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

This has been a very good, very informative thread.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> The Stamoid idea is interesting but I'm not sure relevant to most applications. On a sloop you have to roll up the headsail, drag the bagged Gale Sail over a heaving deck, put the sleeve on, and then be in two places at once to get the Gale Sail over the furled headsail and haul it up. I think there is a reason the advertising shows use in very benign conditions.
> 
> Getting to the halyard and the luff at once is easier on an inner stay, but if you have the Stamoid sleeve on you can't use the staysail, and if you have been using the staysail and roll it up you have to get the sleeve back on.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm not sure I'd classify my rather limited experience with my Gale Sail as "success" ;-) I've only tested it in relatively tame conditions between 25-30 knots, and it was certainly do-able... Hoisting it in another 10 knots of breeze would obviously be more challenging, but I think still do-able...

But again, doing so on the headstay over a furled genoa would be a whole different ballgame. The main problem would be your inability to physically place yourself forward or to side of the stay, because if the sail is gonna need a bit of additional 'help' in pulling the luff up over the ridges of the furled sail during the hoist, that's far more achievable if you're able to position yourself forward of the inner stay... So, I agree that a Gale Sail to be used on a headstay is not likely to be a great arrangement, a setup like yours is a far better way to go. On the other hand, for coastal cruisers without an inner forestay, a Gale Sail might certainly be a solution that is better than nothing at all, and I believe that's the sort of sailors the Gale Sail is really intended for...

One other option for those like me with a staysail on a furler, facing a blow of long duration, and anticipating prolonged use of a storm jib... You could simply remove the staysail from the furler, and hoist the Gale Sail over the foil, instead. If this was done in advance of the conditions deteriorating too badly, it wouldn't be all that much more difficult than lowering and bagging a hanked-on staysail, and hoisting a storm jib in its place, and would give you a much more efficient leading edge to the sail...

One important thing the discussion of dealing with hanked-on staysails and storm sails always reinforces for me, is the value of having halyards at the mast, rather than led aft to the cockpit... For the singlehanded sailor, hoisting or striking these sails with halyards led aft can be VERY problematic, and entail a lot of extra work and movement about the deck, just one more reason why I believe everything should stay at the mast on any boat I'm gonna sail...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Would note now with dyneema for removable inner forestry and for hanks some of the prior difficulties of just leaving a purpose built storm jib ready to go have been eliminated. The thing snugs up nice and tight. Sits just forward of the deflated dinghy lashed to the deck and is not in the way. Leave it flaked and rolled up with sheets on it. I don't see why anyone would go with a more complicated system trying to rig things in a storm. Believe in K I S S.
I'm clumsy and not as brave as others. Like idea of freeing the one or two ties keeping sail down. Then pulling halyard up from cockpit. Then setting sheets. As regards having three head sails and three stays remember you can always tack the genny and if necessary the Solent by rolling them up, tacking then rolling them out. So even in light or moderate winds being 100% ready for a storm is not a big deal. Also when actually going places you don't tack or gybe that frequently. More frequent is the sails stay on the same side of the boat the whole transit.
To date have not had any troubles with things lead aft. Admittedly my experience is limited but if runs are clear with no acute angles and only one turn at mast base and one line organizer to line up with clutches friction is minimal with little chance for fouling.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Would note this system evolved from the round the world single handed racers. If these guys are doing this in the southern ocean even an inept like me can do it reliably while cruising.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

outbound said:


> Would note this system evolved from the round the world single handed racers. If these guys are doing this in the southern ocean even an inept like me can do it reliably while cruising.


Yours is certainly an ideal setup for a bluewater cruising boat. If I were to step up to a bigger boat, a version of your rig is probably the way I'd be inclined to go...

However, with a boat like mine - large foretriangle/small main - I feel a more conventional cutter-style configuration is still preferable... Additionally, one of the primary reasons I'd rather have an inner forestay set 25% of the J dimension aft countered with running backstays, is the support it lends against mast pumping or inversion. With a deck-stepped mast and inline shrouds with single lowers, that's a real consideration, for me...


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I'm not sure I'd classify my rather limited experience with my Gale Sail as "success" ;-) I've only tested it in relatively tame conditions between 25-30 knots, and it was certainly do-able... Hoisting it in another 10 knots of breeze would obviously be more challenging, but I think still do-able...


Even so, you have used the Gale Sail in more sporty conditions than those ATN advertises. I have never used one. Of course I've never purposely smashed my thumb with a hammer but I know it wouldn't be a good idea.

See their video: 




Conditions look like 10-12 kts with 2(ish) ft seas. Consider my observations in the context of 35 kts, 6-10 ft seas, and the bow plunging up and down conceivably with water soaking you on the foredeck.

The beefy young man is not holding on. How hard will rigging be with an elbow hooked around the pulpit or forestay? At a minimum you'll be sitting, using your legs to keep you in place, and getting face full of sea periodically.

In the video there is clearly at least one other person aboard (not including the camera person). Notice that as the young man is running the headsail sheets round the forestay someone else off camera is pulling on the furling line. I don't have that much extra line on my furler so I'd have to lash the sheets to the sail (more bulk, more friction, more chance to snag) or take them off (bad idea).

At least the young man in the video looks aloft when connecting the halyard to be sure it is on the correct side.

The tack line is fine on the wind but I'd worry about chafe against the pulpit as the wind goes aft. Depends on the boat of course. *grin*

The video shows the sheets being rigged last. I'm not sure I'd have the energy. I suppose all that could be done ahead and the Gale Sail left bagged on the deck.

For my 40' 28k# boat a Gale Sail would cost $1200 plus sheets. I bet I could hit that number with a Dyneema luff sail. The issue then becomes a sturdy tack fitting. The biggest benefit of the Gale Sail is minimal boat modifications. Still - I continue to believe that a storm jib should not be on the forestay but aft. I firmly believe that the time to rig the sail completely, including sheets, is at the dock before a passage. On Auspicious I spliced eyes on a short hold down with snap shackle on one end to keep the staysail from riding up. The sheets are run aft through dedicated cars and secured in the cockpit. To hoist I unhook the hold down, pull off the sail bag, and hoist.

I'll be the first to say that a roller furled staysail on an inner stay is easier. You pays your money and makes your choice. *grin* I think that on many boats there are similarly priced options to the Gale Sail that perform better and are easier to deploy. Heck - the old fashioned reef in my staysail is likely faster than a Gale Sail.



JonEisberg said:


> But again, doing so on the headstay over a furled genoa would be a whole different ballgame. The main problem would be your inability to physically place yourself forward or to side of the stay, because if the sail is gonna need a bit of additional 'help' in pulling the luff up over the ridges of the furled sail during the hoist, that's far more achievable if you're able to position yourself forward of the inner stay... So, I agree that a Gale Sail to be used on a headstay is not likely to be a great arrangement, a setup like yours is a far better way to go. On the other hand, for coastal cruisers without an inner forestay, a Gale Sail might certainly be a solution that is better than nothing at all, and I believe that's the sort of sailors the Gale Sail is really intended for...


I have to believe you've been in the pulpit facing aft dealing with a sail issue before Jon. *grin* In big seas it's sort of a power enema.



JonEisberg said:


> One important thing the discussion of dealing with hanked-on staysails and storm sails always reinforces for me, is the value of having halyards at the mast, rather than led aft to the cockpit... For the singlehanded sailor, hoisting or striking these sails with halyards led aft can be VERY problematic, and entail a lot of extra work and movement about the deck, just one more reason why I believe everything should stay at the mast on any boat I'm gonna sail...


On that we violently do agree. It's amazing how fast friction builds up. A couple of turns can be a big deal. Lines led aft mean extra friction, extra loads, extra time for every evolution, and more clutter in the cockpit (lines, clutches, cleats, winches). Add some less than top end maintenance of blocks and clutches and the loads get pretty big. Then there is the idea of punching holes through a nice watertight dodger to run lines through; the below deck Jeanneau system is nice but yet more to maintain and yet more friction.

As Janet and I get older and consider accommodations to being increasingly creaky (that is creaky - not cranky - I'm already cranky) we're contemplating an electric winch at the mast. Lines run aft isn't even an option.

As always Jon, I have great respect for you whether we agree or not. Sorry to miss you last December in NJ.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Im all about halyards at the mast....whoever quoted that lines led aft are the solo sailors dream should be shot...

thats my opinion...you need to be where the actions is...if you dont have a lot of action left in you I understand the want to stay in the cockpit for safety reasons etc...but honestly you just cant sail from the cockpit always...unless you just sail on a mild mannered lake...

an autopilot for the solo sailor is more important than lines led aft...simplicity of systems is key here

how many times have you heard people saying oh this and that got stuck going aft or there was too much friction when I really needed to reef or whatever...

anywhoo


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Guess I'm a belt and suspenders kind of guy. Spec' two beefy self tailing winches on the mast and have sturdy mast pulpits. Still those winches haven't been used yet except to get dinghy on board and to play with topping lift for the pole. Once again don't believe those southern ocean racers are going forward too often. I like going forward the view is better. But I don't like working there. 
+1 on autopilots. + 1 on autopilots with remotes. -1 on auto tack function so far.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Clambering around the foredeck unless watching dolphins is insanity. Stark raving crackers from 1970's sailing.

To set a boat up to do that is just loony unsafe.

Each to their own, but if someone is considering it then I suggest going out for a longish passage first.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I'm interested in the Dyneema inner forestay that outbound talks about. I've penciled out a few designs for something like this before, but always included a length of wire for the hanks of the sail to attach to. Wouldn't it be likely that the hanks of your storm jib would chafe right through the removable dyneema stay?

This is one if the reasons I am so excited about the idea of the flying sails furler for a staysail or storm jib. No chafing, but also no luff rope jumping out of the track and even a halyard wrap (if it's even possible) would still allow you to drop the whole mess on deck. 

A storm sail with a dyneema luff was also mentioned. This may be a cheaper option than the flying-sails furler and would allow one to leave it bagged on deck ready to deploy. Disadvantages I can see would be attaching and detaching it as it wouldn't be rolled up and would likely catch a lot of wind in the deployment in both directions. Anyone care to comment more on this option? 

MedSailor


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Cruisingdad said:


> This has been a very good, very informative thread.


100% agree, but don't worry, there's still time for it to go down in flames and get locked by the mods. 

HERE is the best article on the subject of staysails that I have EVER seen. It's authored by Carol Hasse who, if you don't already know if her, is one of the top 10 cruising sail makers in the world. Larry Pardey for example will only buy sails from her and one loft in New Zealand. I have cruised with her and she is immensely knowledgeable and without ego. She was once asked by a MacGreggor owner while out cruising about how to improve his rig and sail performance and instead of telling the owner it was a lost cause, proceeded to offer lots of professional and useful advice for free and even climb aboard and help tune the rig.

Enough intro,  enjoy a great article!

MedSailor


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Been on some long passages with 5-15k 1-2ft seas. Once went to Bermuda and never tacked or took the genny down. Able to make eggs easy over every day.Still always have harness on unless down below and always clipped in to jackline or other strong point. Even on nice days -safety first. But sitting up forward day dreaming, watching the dolphins or just sitting in the sun reading when not on watch is a part of why I go sailing. It's more fun if wife is up there with me snuggling.
Fully accept I'm looney tunes. Why else would I blow more money than my house on a boat. It ain't all storm sailing and macho stuff. Last summer spoke with a chap after he did the N. Atlantic and S. Pacific gyres. Said they did the whole thing and never saw more than 30kts. Then mangled his traveler in strong winds in Narragansett Bay. I. Would skip the storm sailing if I could. But you're right we all need to be Boy Scouts and "Be Prepared".


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Med- most folks are using soft hanks which are just like soft shackles. Chaff not an issue. Stay has a coating on it so very low friction. Had Hood Sails in California help make up sail, pendant and stay. Good kit. Sure if you chat with any loft they would help you do it up right. If you can talk with builder/designer of your boat they would help so you got placement/dimensions right but a good sailmaker could do that as well.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> For my 40' 28k# boat a Gale Sail would cost $1200 plus sheets. I bet I could hit that number with a Dyneema luff sail. The issue then becomes a sturdy tack fitting. The biggest benefit of the Gale Sail is minimal boat modifications. Still - I continue to believe that a storm jib should not be on the forestay but aft. I firmly believe that the time to rig the sail completely, including sheets, is at the dock before a passage. On Auspicious I spliced eyes on a short hold down with snap shackle on one end to keep the staysail from riding up. The sheets are run aft through dedicated cars and secured in the cockpit. To hoist I unhook the hold down, pull off the sail bag, and hoist.


Good point about the cost, I didn't realize those things had gotten that expensive 

When I switched to roller furling on my staysail, I simply had Etienne add the Gale Sail luff/sleeve to the old Hild storm jib that came with my boat. The cost was minimal, maybe $200-250 back then... Even with my setup, where I think the Gale Sail is a viable compromise, the price would certainly give me pause if I were doing it again today... Perhaps the best deal would still be to find a pre-owned Storm jib at Bacon's or somewhere, and have the sleeve added...


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Perhaps the best deal would still be to find a pre-owned Storm jib at Bacon's or somewhere, and have the sleeve added...


... or add a Dyneema luff "wire."


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

This is a really interesting thread, but I think the consideration needs greater thought 

I recently posted my novice views on deciding on my sail inventory, using thoughts from this forum as a foundation
http://sailingwithkids.net/what-sails-should-you-take-cruising/

Clearly, I don't think anyone is saying that a gale sail is better than a second stay. That's not really the analysis. I think a more accurate statement would be:

"Will a gale sail be a sufficient trade off for me because adding a second stay is too difficult"

There have been several comments about "just" using a removable stay, or modern ropes, and then you have a second stay. But that's really not the main issue, it's the attachment point. For 99% of people! adding a second stay will mean major work either at the deck! the mast, or both.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> ... or add a Dyneema luff "wire."


Well, of course... I should have been clearer, I was referring to my specific situation, using a Gale Sail type of storm jib over a furler already in place...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

vtsailguy said:


> Clearly, I don't think anyone is saying that a gale sail is better than a second stay. That's not really the analysis. I think a more accurate statement would be:
> 
> "Will a gale sail be a sufficient trade off for me because adding a second stay is too difficult"
> 
> There have been several comments about "just" using a removable stay, or modern ropes, and then you have a second stay. But that's really not the main issue, it's the attachment point. For 99% of people! adding a second stay will mean major work either at the deck! the mast, or both.


Yup, I think many folks tend to underestimate how much can be involved in adding a proper inner stay, and how poorly many typical production boats might be configured for doing so... It's a bit more complicated than screwing a padeye into the deck or coachroof, and calling it good  Unless your boat happens to have a bulkhead situated at the point where the deck attachment will be located, you might have your work cut out for you. I see plenty of boats at the boat shows, whose forward stateroom could be somewhat marred by a stainless tie rod to the hull passing thru the middle of the island queen-size berth up there...

Also, one problem with going to a stowable free-flying staysail or storm sail on a continuous furling drum, is likely to be maintaining sufficient halyard tension. Even with spectra rope, that can be difficult to achieve without going to a 2:1 halyard, which might be easier said than done on many production boats... Especially, those with lines and halyards led aft, setting up a dedicated halyard would involve a special sheave box added to the mast, another high-load turning block at the base, possibly an additional deck organizer and rope clutch, and so on...


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

vtsailguy said:


> Clearly, I don't think anyone is saying that a gale sail is better than a second stay. That's not really the analysis. I think a more accurate statement would be:
> 
> "Will a gale sail be a sufficient trade off for me because adding a second stay is too difficult"
> 
> There have been several comments about "just" using a removable stay, or modern ropes, and then you have a second stay. But that's really not the main issue, it's the attachment point. For 99% of people! adding a second stay will mean major work either at the deck! the mast, or both.


I agree with the challenge of an attachment for the tack. You need someone to take a look at your boat and determine where the decent structural points are.

My point is not that a "real" storm jib or staysail on an inner jib is better. My point is that dragging a Gale Sail out on the deck in 35 kts or more with rising seas is really not going to happen. If you think an inner forestay, roller furled or hanked on, is not practical I suggest you save you money on the Gale Sail because I bet you won't use it.

Use the storage space for something else.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

When I put in the inner stay, I fabricated a two-sided eye plate from 1/4" s.s. It sandwiches the deck with the stay connected to one side and a Dyneema line to the bottom which is attached to a large welded eye which I drilled right up through the center of the bow. All the components are in line with the angle of the stay and transfer all the force right down to the strongest part of the hull. The glass is 2" thick where it goes through. A bolt head and large shaped s.s. "washer" show on the outside, above the waterline. The amount of tension on an inner forestay certainly requires that the force be transferred down to something other than just a cored deck. The parts I made up, including the hound and deck fittings are in the attached picture.


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