# reefing effects on pointing



## bkw (Aug 20, 2006)

44.7 Beneteau
13 knts of wind 
sailing close hauled
1 reef same draft location.
do you think this would allow the boat to point higher?


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

question is too enigmatic


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

OHHHH My!!!! Jaysus, Mary, and Joseph, the Saints and Our Lady Of Fatima!!!!!!!! (All together at least 4 times)........

the things we read here....NO IT WILL NOT. And I will not explain why...
Next time ask nicely, who di you think you are??? Prince Charles?

Why would you reef at 13 on 44.7 Your Heighness??


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

*Good sailing breeze to some is......time to reef?*



Giulietta said:


> Why would you reef at 13 on 44.7 Your Heighness??


Eggggzzzactly. Some would call 13 kts. the beginning of a good sailing breeze.

And no, I wouldn't think it would make the boat point higher, but that's just me. Shake the reef out and let that puppy SAIL!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Ummm.. why would you be reefing in only 13 knots of wind???


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## Culinary411 (Oct 20, 2006)

That's why I love this board. LMAO....Its the responses.....forget the question...its the responses I love.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Also, are you reefing the main, the jib or both??? I am guessing that if you reef only one sail, it will have a different effect on the boat's ability to point than if you reef the other or both.

Culinary411- some of the questions deserve certain types of responses...


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## trantor12020 (Mar 11, 2006)

curiously, why would anyone wants to reef at 13kts wind?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

trantor12020 said:


> curiously, why would anyone wants to reef at 13kts wind?


You might reef at 13 knots to get practice reefing the sails, but this is in the racing forum, so I can't see any possible reason for reefing the sails on a 44' boat in only 13 knots of wind. Even on my little 28' boat, I don't start reefing until 20 knots of wind or so.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

I might reef my sails at 13 knots when I see squalls and CuNim baering down on me - better than reefing 10 minutes later in gusty 25-30 knots. So the question still remains valid. I've not compared pointing ability, but conventional wisdom leads me to think a sail is optimized for full sail and progressive reefs decrease performance and consequently worsen the best angle to the wind.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

But if you're reefing for aproaching wx condions, are you really conserned about the reef's effects on the boat performance?


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

werebeagle - I certainly wouldn't be worried about a couple of degrees pointing; perhaps I chose an unfortunate scenario. I just mean that the origina question isn't necessarily invalid, that there are conditions where you might reef in low wind. I'm not a racer so really don't know if there would be a big difference with just one reef...


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## bkw (Aug 20, 2006)

i appologize for not asking more nicely.
it was my co skipper who wanted to reef.
thanks for the reply.


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## bkw (Aug 20, 2006)

we were racing and no there were no signs of bad weather ahead.
my co skipper thought we had a little too much helm and that was his idea on how too correct it.
we are fairly new at racing.
it was early in the race and though we may have had a little too much helm but we could have controled it by flattenning and putting more twist in the main.
reefing took a 1/2 knot off our speed and we came in first in 2 races over the weekend.
once again i did not mean for my question to come off as it did.


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

If you are getting too much helm at 13 knots there can be several reasons. Had you tensioned your backstay to bring your rmast head back a little ?? Mast head rig or Fractional?? 

If you have tensioned your backstay perhaps your rig is not set up properly and you need a little more mast rake. 

You may wish to put a little flattening reef in depending on how full your main is. 

Generaly in light air you want a little weather helm as it helps the boat lift to weaither. At 13 you are above this but not by a lot. Sorry too many variables but reefing should not be necessary.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

*2 Firsts*



bkw said:


> we were racing and no there were no signs of bad weather ahead.
> ...
> reefing took a 1/2 knot off our speed and we came in first in 2 races over the weekend.
> once again i did not mean for my question to come off as it did.


We came in first in 2 races...bummer for the other guy.


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## stonecutter (Aug 24, 2000)

If You triple reef maybe you could sail into the wind


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you're getting strong weather helm in a 45' boat in only 13 knots of wind...something must be wrong. 

Generally, as a rule, the bigger the boat, the more wind it can handle before it needs to reef. In a 45' boat there really shouldn't be a need to reef in what is relatively light air.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

PLEASE.......................PLEASE............................

who were you racing against????? an Optimist???????????

PLEASE.................PLEASE there is a limit..........

Maybe you shouldn't be sailing a 44.7.......


OHHHH My!!!! Jaysus, Mary, and Joseph, the Saints and Our Lady Of Fatima!!!!!!!! (All together at least 4 times)........

This IS the question of the week....


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

*Deep breaths*

Giu -- Please take some deep breaths. You're worrying me! These posts aren't worth it!

Hey, the guys were experimenting with reefing and still came in first. Good for them. We won't get into details about what they were racing against, OK????????

But if weather helm is a problem at 13 kts of apparent wind, try dropping the boom down just a hair and see how boat speed and weather helm are then. Reefing should be way down the list of things to try in those winds.


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## bkw (Aug 20, 2006)

once again. we are new at racing.
for those who want more info.
each race was 23mi. (fetch)
1st race 8 boats
2nd race 6 boats
highest rated boat was rated 172
44.7 rated at 30


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

13 might sound low, but I've seen polars (not for that boat) indicating that reefing at 12-14 knots, or switching to smaller sails since reefing adds drag, will actually make a boat point higher and sail faster.

It will depend on the particulars of the boat and unless you've got access to good polars, there's only one way to find out, isn't there?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Hello...please that boat has a mast has tall as mine at least 60'....the main is similar. The answer is NO...not at 13kts, you start loosing speed, the boat heels less that is all, and might travel faster due to that, but not point higher...think again, ok??


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

G-
I'm not saying that boat, or your boat, should reef at 13 knots. Just that polars (or real life testing) can hold surprises. I have no idea if the B44.7 requires a thousand pounds of railmeat to stand upright (reef sooner when there's no crew on the rail) or if it is a pharoah's barge that will sit dead level until it flops over.
How any boat performs, sight unseen, is a crapshoot. And most of us aren't going to spend the price of a good VPP program run, unless we're spending serious money on racing and the VPP becomes a very small and reasonable cost from that perspective.
Speaking of serious racing... Do you know, by using Kevlar thread instead of show laces, you can save almost 1/2 ounce (15 grams) per crew on the boat?! And if you simply have non-skid soles bonded onto their feet, sometimes you can save 1/2 kg. per crew! <G>


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> Speaking of serious racing... Do you know, by using Kevlar thread instead of show laces, you can save almost 1/2 ounce (15 grams) per crew on the boat?! And if you simply have non-skid soles bonded onto their feet, sometimes you can save 1/2 kg. per crew! <G>


Hummmm intersting.....

One question, what glue can we use?? is it light??? 

FYI, we had sail and modulation tests performed for 3 months on my boat...


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

When the wind is only about 13 kts., the boat is not likely to develop a troublesome amount of weather helm, unless the rig is grossly out of tune. I can only guess that the Beneteau's rig was not that far out of tune, which means that it was probably not experiencing nearly as much weather helm as he thought. Even if there was a little weather helm, you should have been able to reduce it by flattening the mainsail a little, or by using other sail shaping methods.

For a sailboat, your sails are your "motor." If you have more sail area than your opponents, you have a bigger, more powerful motor. As the windspeed increases, the amount of power that is generated by the sails also increases. But, if the windspeed increases too much, the sails can start to produce more power than the boat can use efficiently. Some racers refer to this as being "overpowered." The most obvious indications that a boat is overpowered is that it starts to heel excessively, and it starts to develop excessive weather helm. When that happens, you should start to reduce your sail area by reefing the mainsail and later perhaps by rolling up a little of the jib. By decreasing your sail area, you are likewise decreasing the ability of your sails to generate power.

When most racers sense that the boat is overpowered, reducing sail area is their last resort, after they have first tried their cunningham, outhaul, backstay adjuster, traveler, and other adjustments, and the boat is still overpowered.

Moreover, the windspeed is rarely constant. It comes in gusts and lulls. If you reduce sail area too soon, it might be sailing efficiently in the gusts, but it might be underpowered in the lulls. Most racers don't mind if the boat is a little overpowered in the strongest gusts, so long as it is sailing at maximum power during the majority of the time, when the wind is not gusting.

To answer your original question, you definitely reduced the boat's pointing ability by reefing in those conditions. You said your boatspeed was reduced by 1/2 kt. when you reefed the mainsail. There's a clear relationship between a sailboat's pointing ability and the apparent windspeed. As a sailboat's speed through the water increases, the apparent wind also increases, as well as the boat's pointing ability. By reducing your boatspeed, you reduced the boat's pointing ability.

But, if you won first in two races, you must have been doing some other things right!


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

*Link to the 44.7 Polars*

BKW -- Don't mind us. We are mostly cruisers. Frankly, if you want some real world answers to your question from die-hard racers, go to www.sailinganarchy.com and post your question there. You'll get a ton of answers from racers there. you'll take some flack, but you'll get answers.

But with about 10 minutes of snooping, I found out that Beneteau posts the polars for most of the boats in its First series on its website. Check it out for the Benetoy 44.7 http://www.beneteauusa.com/wps/wcm/resources/file/eb450a0646ffaf5/44.7%20Race%20VPP.pdf

Fair winds.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Mitch-
Incredibly generous of BendyToy to post VPPs at no charge that way, I've never heard of another company giving them away. (Color me impresed.)

Apparently they start reefing that boat down at 20 knots windspeed...looks like there is only one sail set considered, and what? rollup sails for the reefing on that rig?


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

The information that you'll find in polars is valuable, but it doesn't answer your question. Polars tell you how the boat's velocity made good changes as it bears increasingly off the wind. Your question completely disregards speed as a factor. Your concern was to maximize the boat's pointing ability. In fact, you gave up 1/2 kt. of speed in hopes of pointing higher. All sailboats can sail closer to the wind when the boat's speed, and thus the apparent wind, increases. Therefore, anything you do that reduces the boat's speed reduces it's pointing ability.

Your co skipper, on the other hand, reefed the main to reduce weather helm. The reason why weather helm is bad is because it is an indication that the boat is experiencing too much drag as it moves through the water. His thinking was that, by reducing the drag that was caused by excessive weather helm, the boat speed would be increased. But, when you reefed the mainsail and the boat speed was reduced by 1/2 kt., that tells you that the decrease in sail area had a more detrimental effect than any possible benefit that you might have gained by reducing drag.

Your co skipper was right in concerning himself with reducing drag, but, as with almost everything related to sailboats, it's a trade-off. When you reduce sail area prematurely, you're reducing the ability of the sails to generate driving force in conditions when you can't afford it, and you're not getting enough benefit, in terms of reduction in drag, to justify it.

As apparent wind increases, you can generate more power with less sail area. As a sailboat becomes overpowered, the angle of heel increases, weather helm increases, and drag increases. Those conditions reduce the boat's speed and it's ability to point. After you have first tried unsuccessfully to reduce sail power by flattening the sails, then it is time to think about reducing sail area, and not earlier. (If you're cruising and see bad weather coming, you should reef early, but we're talking about racing here.)


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

To make my self CLEAR SIMPLE in my answer....as I posted in the beggining..

NO.


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