# Surviving Storm



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

This is for grins and giggles, but I thought it might be fun to see the responses. I have been stuck in a bunch of junk before, but nothing in the ballpark of this:

NDBC - Station 44141

So, what heavy weather tactics would you use on your boat? Honestly, i am not sure that kind of storm is survivable by most recreational vessels, and even those that did survive would be as much luck as skill, but I still thought it might be a fun discussion.

What would I do? I would try running a trysail. The mast on my boat is far forward as it is with most sloops which gives me moderate weather helm and a good feel on the wheel. Benefit of this tactic is I have some control over the boat and where she goes (trying to steer around crests and breakers). It also gives me the ability to try and get out of the storm as quickly as possible. Negative is the windage and potential for what assuredly a knockdown (or many) in which I would be in the cockpit. I could see a higher chance of drowning there. Also, come nightfall, all bets are off. I would have to douse or cut away the trysail, drop a sea anchor, go below and pray.

Ok, what would you do?


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

Those big waves are because of the shoaling onto the Georges banks. The key would have been staying in the deep Atlantic waters until the storm passed.

We did the Bermuda to Halifax trip 6 yrs ago and staying in deep water was part of our contingency plans should a storm develop. However, it is not a place I would sail this early in the year, we did the trip end of May.

I do not think a static storm tactic would work, all you could do is run down wave using a drogue if necessary. But survival might not be possible.

The UK weather service refers to waves that big as 'phenomenal' as opposed to 'very high'

_Sea state

Smooth
Wave height less than 0.5 m
Slight
Wave height of 0.5 to 1.25 m
Moderate
Wave height of 1.25 to 2.5 m
Rough
Wave height of 2.5 to 4.0 m
Very rough
Wave height of 4.0 to 6.0 m
High
Wave height of 6.0 to 9.0 m
Very high
Wave height of 9.0 to 14.0 m
Phenomenal
Wave height more than 14.0 m _


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Yorksailor said:


> Those big waves are because of the shoaling onto the Georges banks. The key would have been staying in the deep Atlantic waters until the storm passed.
> 
> We did the Bermuda to Halifax trip 6 yrs ago and staying in deep water was part of our contingency plans should a storm develop. However, it is not a place I would sail this early in the year, we did the trip end of May.
> 
> ...


Phenomenal. I would call it that too.

So you would use a drogue and go below?


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

No, trail a drogue and steer as an active technique. We carry a Seabrake

rigged but never used in an storm.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Does anyone remember offhand the conditions in Fastnet or the Queens Storm?


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

There have been many books written which give very detailed accounts of being in these types of conditions in the North Atlantic. Perfect Storm, of course, but Michael Tougias has a number of lesser known ones which really re-construct those conditions for the reader from first-hand accounts of being there. I love reading the books, but that's about as close to those conditions as I ever want to be.

This is an excellent one.
Amazon.com: A Storm Too Soon: A True Story of Disaster, Survival and an Incredib eBook: Michael J. Tougias: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51zaoKgW0tL

(FYI -- on April 1, Michael Tougias's new book detailing the Bounty rescue will be released.)

Amazon.com: Rescue of the Bounty: Disaster and Survival in Superstorm Sandy eBook: Michael J. Tougias, Douglas A. Campbell: Kindle [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51ODVfp8qfL


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

54' waves. Good gravy.

Trail a drogue. Button up as tight as you can. Go below. And pray.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Looks like some buoys have stopped signalling. Buoy Platform Status Report


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

bljones said:


> Looks like some buoys have stopped signalling. Buoy Platform Status Report


No surprise. Be shocked if they do not break loose.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

An account of the Fastnet: Hell and high water: The Fastnet disaster - Sailing - More Sports - The Independent

When thinking about the possibility of sailing over the ocean, one of the factors in my choice of an A35 was its performance in the Fastnet storm. The Alberg 35 Sailboat : Bluewaterboats.org


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

In those conditions I would just pucker up put my head between my legs and ...well you know thw rest.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Impossible to say until you're actually in the stuff, there are so many variables in such situations at play. Wave heights alone don't necessarily tell us much, seas half that size in the Gulf Stream, for instance, might be more dangerous to a small yacht... But whatever your initial 'plan', chances are good it will require considerable modification as the winds clock around, but the direction of the wave train lags behind... And, you're most certainly right about one thing - making it through such weather on the sort of boats most of us sail would likely entail a very high degree of Luck, no matter how exemplary the seaworthiness of the boat, or the seamanship of the crew...

that would certainly not have been a nice place to be. So much would depend upon your crew, if you had a boatload of highly capable helmsmen aboard who would not become incapacitated by seasickness or exhaustion, the sort of more 'active' tactics you describe might be viable... But, for the sort of crews most of us go cruising with, a more passive approach would likely have to be resorted to at some point, particularly after nightfall... For me, that would likely involve running to a Series Drogue, I think for most boats that would represent the best option...

However, you'd better have a bombproof companionway, possible with additional storm shutters fitted... Many of today's boats would be woefully vulnerable to damage and downflooding after a large breaking wave strike from astern...

From the location of that buoy, however, running off or to a drogue may not have been a good option for much of that storm, when the winds were from the E thru S and SW... Running off would have brought you closer to the vicinity of Sable Island, one of the LAST places in the entire Atlantic you'd want to be remotely close to in such a storm, it's been swallowing up boats and ships for centuries...

Literally...


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Staying in the cockpit for hours and hours when the windchill is in the teens and buckets of cold water get poured on your head every few minutes, does not sound like a good survival tactic to me.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

If you were out there the good news would be that the swell period is 17 seconds.

One of the best analysis IMHO on surviving this sort of storm conditions was written by Bernard Moitessier who was in something similar down in the Southern ocean. He started by trailing warps and junk tied on to them like car tires and anchors so it behaved like a small drogue. He eventually cut them all away and ran downwind under bare poles. [I think]. He said he had much better control. He did have an inside steering position.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

TQA said:


> If you were out there the good news would be that the swell period is 17 seconds.
> 
> One of the best analysis IMHO on surviving this sort of storm conditions was written by Bernard Moitessier who was in something similar down in the Southern ocean. He started by trailing warps and junk tied on to them like car tires and anchors so it behaved like a small drogue. He eventually cut them all away and ran downwind under bare poles. [I think]. He said he had much better control. *He did have an inside steering position*.


motossier is king to me...he hated drogues for all the same reasons people seem to love them....

you must remember it took him a steady stream of knockdwons on joshua for him to find the perfect angle to run bare boles to the waves

he found that if he left the stern perpendicular to the waves he would broach to eiother side badly as the wave effort was too much and his rudder would lose control to quickly as he would skid...surf and bang to either side.

he learned that by giving either quarter to the breaking waves preferrebly the windward quarter that the rumbling breaking waves would slide under his boat much better and that by giving either cheek if you will the whipping effect of the hit of the wave if you will was less and more controllable...

he also had that awesome inside helm station(I crewed on a boat, a steel jovelt nivelt) that had the same little wheel setup at the nav station.

again this is why its so important to be one with your boat and learn what your boat likes

discussing storm tactics on a forum is about as futile a topic as I can imagine...

yes you can ask about drogues or not, bare poles or not but specifics forget about it...

like you say its important to notice the time between waves...17 seconds is a lot....if it were every 5 or less I think it would be safe to consider it deadly.

in any case man Id hate to be there

man you guys have it rough in the north atlantic

geeze


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

The link is dynamic so the weathe ris changing depending when you look at it. But the OP posted 3 hours ago.

Now its


> Wind Direction (WDIR): W ( 270 deg true )
> Wind Speed (WSPD): 33.0 kts
> Wind Gust (GST): 42.7 kts
> Wave Height (WVHT): 39.7 ft
> ...


The interesting things are the wind speed, wave height and period and temperature.

For a start I would not be in that place as its the wrong season to sail there.

At 33 knots gusting 42 its fine to hove to and go below.
The waves are high but the period is longish (well its quite long for small er waves!)

The important thing to know here, and this refers back to the other thread where I am saying DO NOT WORK ON DECK unless you absolutely have to. In these conditions of cold you would be suffering hypothermia before any reasonable amount of deck work would be done. Yes, even including putting a storm jib up an inner forestay.

Your chances of death are too great from just one freezing wave and then that wind chill.

Just furl the genoa from the cockpit to whatever level hoves to best, heave the bugger to, and go below and get a warm coffee.

If the wind was much higher And I was forced to use my parachute sea anchor I would be able to deploy it from the cockpit. Again, furl the genny from the cockpit, dump the main from the cockpit, chuck out the parachute sea anchor from the cockpit and go below and warm up.

But the stats say the pressure is going up rapidly, so I would hang onto the hove to position instead of putting out a parachute sea anchor.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Sailing out of the Seychelles for the Red Sea, we encountered what I was told (on the ham radio) was a hurricane which actually (again according to those on the radio) chased us across the equator. I argued that this wasn't possible, but they were adamant.
Winds were 35 to 50 knots for ten days and we reefed down to a tiny main (old fashioned boom furling) and stay sail and beat. It wasn't pleasant, but we made the voyage without damage, passing between Socotra and the horn of Africa as conditions abated. We even managed warm meals each night; I love my pressure cooker!
Understanding the weather systems you encounter when voyaging, determines the actions necessary to survive. Had we run, drogue or not, we would have gotten deeper into the storm and heaving to or using a sea anchor would have allowed the storm to overtake us. The only realistic choice when faced with a cyclonic storm is to bite the bullet and BEAT! If you can't (or don't want to) beat for at least several days, in 40 plus knots of wind, then you'd best not venture too far from home.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Yikes... That looks unpleasant. 

What would I do? I don't think I could accurately answer that until the debrief, which hopefully would take place at Cafe Sport in the Azores, not at the Coast Guard base, or at St. Peter's desk. 

I have been in one storm, a couple gales, and nothing at all like these conditions. In the storm, and in other oh S**t situations I had a bag of tricks in my head that I had created from reading the accounts of others and from places like sailnet. Each time I started going through the bag and seeing what worked. 

My strategy would be to stay off the deck, and take passive measures. We likely wouldn't have many crew aboard and we don't have the skill and experience to try and do it like Motessier. 

I'd opt for the Jordan Series Drogue, go below, and drink some rum. 

MedSailor


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> motossier is king to me...he hated drogues for all the same reasons people seem to love them....
> 
> you must remember it took him a steady stream of knockdwons on joshua for him to find the perfect angle to run bare boles to the waves
> 
> ...


As I said on the Storm Jib thread, it all depends on the boat. Completely agree. But I think it is a healthy discussion to sit and talk about the different tactics that have worked for others or what they would do in this imaginary scenario. There certainly isn't a right answer and most of us agree it would be pure survival... but still gets a person thinking.

BTW, have any of you read Dashew's 'Surviving the Storm'? It is filled with real life accounts of storms and crews that survived (and those that did not) and what they did right an wrong in recompense. I won't lie, that book gave me the shivers and nightmares!! I ended up giving it away in St Pete a couple of years ago where it was quickly scooped up by another sailor... whom I suspect now has the same nightmares I had! Crazy good book and info though... as is all their stuff.

Brian


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> The important thing to know here, and this refers back to the other thread where I am saying DO NOT WORK ON DECK unless you absolutely have to. In these conditions of cold you would be suffering hypothermia before any reasonable amount of deck work would be done. Yes, even including putting a storm jib up an inner forestay.
> 
> Your chances of death are too great from just one freezing wave and then that wind chill.


I don't know, with proper clothing/gear, I think that whole 'instantaneous hypothermia' thing might be just a _BIT_ of an overstatement... 








MarkofSeaLife said:


> If the wind was much higher And I was forced to use my parachute sea anchor I would be able to deploy it from the cockpit. Again, furl the genny from the cockpit, dump the main from the cockpit, chuck out the parachute sea anchor from the cockpit and go below and warm up.


Are you saying that you would actually lie stern-to, to a sea anchor? Or, do you mean to stream it from the bow, but simply to deploy it from the cockpit, rather than the foredeck?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> I don't know, with proper clothing/gear, I think that whole 'instantaneous hypothermia' thing might be just a _BIT_ of an overstatement...
> 
> Terror in the Southern Ocean - Whitbread Round the World Race 1997-98 - YouTube
> 
> Are you saying that you would actually lie stern-to, to a sea anchor? Or, do you mean to stream it from the bow, but simply to deploy it from the cockpit, rather than the foredeck?


I have never seen that flick before!! Wow!!! Those guys are freaking CRAZY!

And yes, Jon, for this poor South Floridian, that kind of wind would be instantaneous kill for me. If the weather didn't knock me dead, my wife would first chance she got!!

Brian


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

I would probably lie a-hull. Batten down the hatches, take to a bunk with a lee cloth, and wait it out, knowing that the boat might roll and be dismasted, but at least I will remain relatively safe inside the boat.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I think my first plan for coping with this would be to sitting about 2500 miles south of this position. Man that is nasty stuff. I can only imagine what it is like at 3 am (my fave time of course) with 50 knots, gusting 68 and waves at 50 feet. The only saving grace as someone pointed out is the wave period at 16 sec. I would also like to know how regular the waves are. We were caught in a tropical storm many years ago the conditions were not as extreme as this but the winds and waves were still very high. It actually was not bad since the waves were very long and regular. It also was very warm, which the storm here is not. 

The water temp went up 16F in less than 12 hours which makes me think that the Gulf Stream or at least an eddy moved in this time. I guess one should be happy there are no icebergs, if you were further east and north there could be.

What would I do? I might try broad reaching with a storm jib up an hope to get north or south of the main storm path. I suspect that our Monitor might work in these conditions since I think we balance pretty well on this point of sail. Would be a good test of the Monitor, it has been fine with 45 sustained but no experience with 68 knot gusts. If actively sailing did not work, I think I would find out if the Pardeys know what they are talking about. We have the setup they recommend and it would interesting to see how well it works.

I would not lie-ahull. That is just asking for it I think. Probably a bit better to heave-to but I suspect we would fore-reach a lot. Nice to be able to talk about this and not have to experience it.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> What would I do? I might try broad reaching with a storm jib up an hope to get north or south of the main storm path.
> 
> I would not lie-ahull. That is just asking for it I think. Probably a bit better to heave-to but I suspect we would fore-reach a lot. Nice to be able to talk about this and not have to experience it.


Interesting that the three boats in this thread that have circumnavigated have ideas of what they would do or what not to do where some others are waiting to get into the conditions to work out a method.

And each, Killarney, CaptA and me have different methods to use first... And those are probably each better for our own boats.
So for some of the others: time to get working out what you would do. 

BTW @ Killarney: I don't overly mind forereaching if the boat wont hove to. Much better than lying ahull IMHO. And Iv'e wondered if in such high waves one can set it so it only forereaches on the back side of the waves?? And then stops when the next wave blocks a bit of the wind. You would lose the drag effect... But we dont know if the waves are breaking anyway.

If they are 50 foot and breaking then its stupid to stay there... Much better to sail and try to get out of the Gulf Stream or the wind thats making them break. Wind alone doesn't normally make waves break.

The other thing is the speed of the system. This one looks so fast that hanging on for the few hours and the thing has started to abate. Its not a 4 day storm?

Much better to prudently avoid these situations.

Mark


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

The wind has dropped a bit. See how fast the waves have flattened out? Only 25 footers and still 13 sec period. Flat calm!



> Wind Direction (WDIR): W ( 280 deg true )
> Wind Speed (WSPD): 31.1 kts
> Wind Gust (GST): 38.9 kts
> Wave Height (WVHT): 25.3 ft
> ...


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Mark I would agree with you about avoiding heaving to is substantially better than lying-ahull. On thinking about this again I think I would be looking to the Pardey heave-to method first. If you are not going to use it then you are never going to use it.

I noticed that the water temperature was much higher when the conditions were worst. I assume being in the Gulf Stream. If it was an eddy with wind south to west quadrant it could pile up the seas I guess.


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## Loki9 (Jun 15, 2011)

Here's what the buoy data was at the time of the OP.


```
MM 	DD 	TIME(ADT)	 WDIR  WSPDkts 	GSTkts 	WVHTft  DPDsec APDsec 	MWD 	PRESin 	PTDYin 	ATMP°F 	WTMP°F 	DEWP°F 	SALpsu 	VISnmi 	TIDEft
03	27	8:00 pm	  	WNW	31.1	38.9	26.9	14	-	-	29.98	+0.17	36.5	40.5	-	-	-	-
03	27	7:00 pm	  	WNW	33.0	40.8	23.6	11	-	-	29.93	+0.16	36.1	40.8	-	-	-	-
03	27	6:00 pm	  	W	31.1	38.9	25.3	13	-	-	29.87	+0.13	35.6	41.0	-	-	-	-
03	27	5:00 pm	  	W	31.1	40.8	26.6	13	-	-	29.81	+0.10	35.4	40.8	-	-	-	-
03	27	4:00 pm	  	W	31.1	42.7	29.2	12	-	-	29.77	+0.08	35.2	41.0	-	-	-	-
03	27	3:00 pm	  	W	31.1	40.8	30.5	13	-	-	29.74	+0.09	34.9	41.2	-	-	-	-
03	27	2:00 pm	  	W	31.1	38.9	33.5	13	-	-	29.71	+0.12	34.5	41.2	-	-	-	-
03	27	1:00 pm	  	W	33.0	42.7	37.1	16	-	-	29.69	+0.17	34.0	41.5	-	-	-	-
03	27	12:00 pm	  W	33.0	42.7	39.7	13	-	-	29.65	+0.20	34.3	42.3	-	-	-	-
03	27	11:00 am	  W	35.0	44.7	38.7	16	-	-	29.59	+0.23	35.4	43.3	-	-	-	-
03	27	10:00 am	  W	36.9	46.6	42.3	17	-	-	29.52	+0.26	35.8	46.0	-	-	-	-
03	27	9:00 am	  	W	38.9	46.6	40.7	16	-	-	29.44	+0.31	35.8	49.8	-	-	-	-
03	27	8:00 am	  	W	38.9	-	-	-	-	-	29.36	+0.32	38.3	-	-	-	-	-
03	27	7:00 am	  	W	40.8	54.4	46.3	18	-	-	29.26	+0.32	39.6	56.7	-	-	-	-
03	27	6:00 am	  	WSW	42.7	50.5	46.6	18	-	-	29.14	+0.25	41.4	56.7	-	-	-	-
03	27	5:00 am	  	SW	42.7	52.4	47.9	17	-	-	29.04	+0.15	43.7	56.7	-	-	-	-
03	27	4:00 am	  	SW	48.6	66.0	54.1	17	-	-	28.94	+0.03	45.7	56.7	-	-	-	-
03	27	3:00 am	  	SSW	50.5	68.0	50.9	16	-	-	28.89	-0.04	46.4	56.5	-	-	-	-
03	27	2:00 am	  	SSW	50.5	64.1	52.5	17	-	-	28.89	-0.06	48.9	56.5	-	-	-	-
03	27	1:00 am	  	SSW	46.6	64.1	44.9	16	-	-	28.91	-0.04	49.8	56.3	-	-	-	-
03	27	12:00 am	  S	46.6	60.2	44.6	15	-	-	28.93	-0.03	50.7	55.9	-	-	-	-
03	26	11:00 pm	  S	46.6	60.2	40.7	15	-	-	28.95	-0.04	52.0	55.8	-	-	-	-
03	26	10:00 pm	  S	48.6	62.2	37.1	15	-	-	28.95	-0.05	53.6	55.6	-	-	-	-
```


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

The winds are clocking around. That will leave a confused and ugly sea.

One thing I see often from reading disaster accounts is that once the worst of the storm is over, people pull in their drogues, or set sail from a hove-to position too soon and get knocked down/dis-masted by a rouge wave from the confused sea.

Perhaps it's best to wait for the waves and winds to sort themselves out further.

Mark, I agree about having tactics at the ready. When I was aground on a rapidly falling tide, I had several things I could (and did try). The first few didn't work (like hanging jerry cans off a perpendicular boom to heel the boat), then I found out what did wor (rowing out a halyard to an anchor and winching the boat over). Time was limited and it wouldn't have been the time to formulate a plan... What worked was trying plan A, then plan B then plan C from the already made play-book.

MedSailor


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

The really heavy-duty part of this report is the wave size but without knowing whether they were breaking or not an opinion is difficult.

We sailed into a storm of much shorter duration than this one (two days) and we had winds more powerful but smaller waves. In our experience we had waves of 35 to 40 ft but we had for about five hours, winds of 75 gusting 85 knots. This caused waves to break and lying a-hull would have been suicide. At the same time, much of this time was at night with zero viz and we never even realized how bad things had got until the boat took off down a wave in the pitch dark.

We tried to run with a drogue but the drogue we had was primitive (just a long line knotted every few metres to create drag (we were on the first trip on a new-to-us boat with no storm gear). When daybreak came and we could see what we were doing we recovered the drogue and motored into the seas at an oblique angle until the wind abated to 50 knots or less and then we sailed under bare poles until the weather eased enough to sail sort of normally. 

The issue for me is that if the wind isn’t that strong then the chances are the waves are not breaking and if they aren’t breaking then they’re not a danger in any way. They simply pass under the vessel and the only thing one has to do is make sure you don’t start surfing – surfing down 50ft waves is really not clever even in daylight – at night it’s insane.

What would I use today? Well I wouldn't behave too much differently to what we did above. It worked really well and though we had a few knockdowns caused by being hit by breaking waves, the process of keeping the boat moving one way or another seems to me preferable to lying a-hull or even heaving to. We survived with the only damage being a superficial canopy that got ripped from the boat by the wind.

Whether this is good advice in a storm of longer duration is questionable. The Queen’s Birthday storm went on for four days and survivors (one of them whom I know personally) say that the intensity of the storm was challenging enough but the duration is what took the biggest toll.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> Mark I would agree with you about avoiding heaving to is substantially better than lying-ahull. On thinking about this again I think I would be looking to the Pardey heave-to method first. If you are not going to use it then you are never going to use it.


I'd strongly suggest anyone thinking about emulating the Pardey's approach give it a whirl way before you might ever have to resort to it in anger... I've yet to meet anyone, or hear a first hand account, who've used it as successfully as Lin and Larry apparently have...

I think their success might be highly dependent on the sort of full keel design they've always sailed, I think it could be much more problematic with most modern split underbody, high freeboard designs... But, for the life of me, I don't know how they get their bridle to work by using a _snatch block_ to adjust the angle... I've tried that approach simply trying to bridle my anchor rode to compensate for a swell in an open roadstead or harbor with a lot of surge coming from an angle offset from the breeze, and I'll be damned if I could ever get the snatch block to stay in one place on the rode. I simply can't imagine being able to do so in the open ocean in a gale or a storm, seems the aft bridle leg must be fixed to the rode to make it work...

But the main enemy of success with a sea anchor off the bow is probably chafe, and most failures of para-anchors sound like they occur on deck, as a result of chafe, or the internal heating of the rope. I think if lying to a sea anchor is the plan, one had better be prepared to be making regular trips forward to inspect for chafe, or to make adjustments in the rode to attempt to avoid it... In a real blow, I think a 'set it and forget it' attitude towards lying to a parachute is a recipe for the failure/breakage of the system, if the storm is of long enough duration...

One of the biggest arguments in favor of a series drogue, is that when the bridle is shackled to dedicated chainplates on each quarter, the problem of chafe is pretty much eliminated...

Again, I'm not suggesting the Pardey bridle technique is not a viable one, I've seen the effect of the boat's slick when a boat is properly hove-to, and it is most impressive... I'm just saying one should try it out sometime first in 30 knots or so, to see how it might work with your particular boat (I'm guessing your Bristol would probably do pretty well)...

But if you can maintain a steady angle with a bridle by using a snatch block on the rode, you're a far better man than I...  I couldn't even make it work in this situation, a had to fix my bridle to the rode with a rolling hitch simply to lie head to the swell wrapping around into the very rolly anchorage at Baracoa...










BTW, Brian mentioned Dashew's SURVIVING THE STORM... Single best and most comprehensive resource out there, in my opinion...


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

hey where you guys with the great advise when we were knocked down during a Nor easter on our 1st coastal sail? I only have to agree about the hypothermia because I was 1 degree away from it when I stepped foot on land. conditions were north carolina coast 65 mph wind gust and 10' waves every 2 sec. felt like 1/2 sec at times


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

MedSailor said:


> Mark, I agree about having tactics at the ready.
> ... What worked was trying plan A, then plan B then plan C from the already made play-book.
> 
> MedSailor


I find that the 0300 to 0700 watch is a really good time to do a lot of what-if planning. Perhaps it is easier to do so when you are on the boat because it is easier to visualize what is happening and what resources you have available. When we lost our leeward lower shrouds several hundred miles off the coast of Brazil I was able jury-rig very quickly because I had thought about what I would do if I lost various bits of rigging. I knew what I wanted to do and where the various bits were that I needed. Much, much nicer than having to think it all through in a crisis situation.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> I'd strongly suggest anyone thinking about emulating the Pardey's approach give it a whirl way before you might ever have to resort to it in anger... I've yet to meet anyone, or hear a first hand account, who've used it as successfully as Lin and Larry apparently have...
> 
> ...
> 
> One of the biggest arguments in favor of a series drogue, is that when the bridle is shackled to dedicated chainplates on each quarter, the problem of chafe is pretty much eliminated...


I recall some discussion here a while back whereby people calculated the loads that would be induced by the pardey bridle. When you create a triagle with a wide angle in the direction of your primary load, you can actually INCREASE THE LOADS ON THE LEGS OF THE BRIDLE ABOVE THE INITIAL LOAD. In climbing we all know about this as improper angles of rigging can turn a 1 ton load into 2 two ton or even 5 ton loads very quickly.

Remember the parachute sea anchor loads can be up to the full displacement of the boat. So, if the forces are multiplied those loads can get... well.. snappy. 









Image link and more info on rope force vectors is HERE

Also because one leg of the load (the snatch block leg) will not be on a primary mooring bit, you must actually have a point on the boat strong enough to attach it. For their 30'boat their primary sheet winch worked fine, but for a 50ft boat, the primary sheet winch probably would not hold that load. So, perhaps their method is better suited for smaller boats.

Another huge advantage of the Jordan Series Drogue (JSD) over a para anchor is that the bridle decreases the violent yawing that occurs with a single leg parachute anchor from the bow. First hand accounts of using a parachute anchor almost universally speak of horrible motion below, which leads some to abandon their tactic too soon, or be too exhausted to deal with the after-storm conditions.

When I asked Zack Smith of Firoentino parachute anchors (perhaps the most experienced person in the world with the use of parachute anchors) what he thought about the compelling data on the JSD as published by the coast guard. He told me the data was just too good to be true and that therefore it must be wrong....

Omatako's valuable first hand account brings up an interesting point. Power boaters and fishermen have their own set of storm tactics. In fact, the only time I've been on a boat with a deployed sea anchor was a commercial fishing boat off South Point in Hawaii. While the stability and shape of their boats may be different, perhaps their tactic playbook should not be ignored by us sailor-types. We all like to assume the worst (like an inoperable engine) but many of us may be ignoring valuable tactics we could have in our playbook. Using the motor could very well be the play that works for the conditions of the day.

MedSailor


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## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

There is a chapter in Adlard Coles' _Heavy Weather Sailing _that details my yacht, a UFO 34 sailing from Scotland to Iceland in May 1979. During the voyage they had +60kt winds for more than 24 hours. They tried lying a hull then running under bare poles, which resulted in a 360 degree inversion (the writer thinks they pitch-poled). They then started the motor and headed into the seas under power. This worked well, however the engine died when it was damaged. They then tried running under bare poles and were knocked down twice to around 120 degrees and inverted 360 degrees again.

They then set the storm jib and broad reached accross the waves and luffed up almost head to wind at each crest. Using this technique the writer stated he was never in danger of a knockdown again and they safely made it to Iceland.

Based on this result plus others that I have read, for my UFO 34 my plan for extreme weather would be to keep the bow of the boat into the weather, probably by foreaching as I doubt my boat would heave too very well. Motoring into the weather would also be something I could try.

Note that the writer of the article reported that they had a large drum of heavy warp onboard specifically to use as a drogue. They did not use it as the writer did not think it would help.

Well thats my plan. Lets hope I never get to test it out 

Ilenart


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> Omatako's valuable first hand account brings up an interesting point. Power boaters and fishermen have their own set of storm tactics. In fact, the only time I've been on a boat with a deployed sea anchor was a commercial fishing boat off South Point in Hawaii. While the stability and shape of their boats may be different, perhaps their tactic playbook should not be ignored by us sailor-types. We all like to assume the worst (like an inoperable engine) but many of us may be ignoring valuable tactics we could have in our playbook. Using the motor could very well be the play that works for the conditions of the day.
> 
> MedSailor


In the recent storm jib thread, Dave/Auspicious made the comment re moving about the deck: "Never be afraid or too proud to crawl..." The same would apply to employing the use of an engine as a storm tactic. It can be a very valuable item in your bag of tricks, particularly on boats with design shortcomings such as fin keels or excessive freeboard/windage, or the lack of true storm sails, that might impede their ability to properly heave-to or forereach under sail alone in extreme conditions... There are many potential situations where having the engine in gear, and just ticking over, can make all the difference in the ability to succeed in clawing slowly to weather, particularly with a boat that might have to rely on a scrap of furled genoa as a storm jib...

There could be other more peripheral advantages to running the engine, as well... One of the most likely problems to arise as a result of an encounter with extreme weather is a hydro lock of the engine as a result of seawater making its way into the engine via the exhaust. A shutoff valve in the exhaust coupled with a way to empty the residual water in the waterlift muffler is a simple way to prevent water from backing up, but very few boats out there are so equipped... So, one other way to prevent a hydro lock, is to keep the engine running 

On boats where the prop is located in close proximity to the rudder, the prop wash can help provide valuable additional control of the rudder in what are most likely to be steering inputs made at a very slow speed through the water... One of the downsides of the modern trend towards saildrives, is the loss of that bit of additional steering control in such a situation...

Another obvious advantage is in keeping the batteries fully charged... the use of a SSB during heavy weather is a real probability, and that might require all the power you have. So many storm stories turn bad as a result of the dwindling or loss of power aboard, one of the final straws leading to the abandonment of the Alpha 42 BE GOOD TOO back in January was the certainly they would soon be down to nothing, and have no ability to recharge their satphone, was one of the most recent examples... On a boat like mine which is equipped with a bus heater system, the ability to produce cabin heat by running the engine might be huge in the ability to deal with storm conditions in cold weather...

Plenty of cautions apply to running an engine in heavy weather, of course. Ensuring no lines can go over the side, avoiding oil starvation that might arise as a result of running most engines continuously beyond a certain angle of heel, etc... I think one of the most overlooked, that very little attention is paid to on most production boats today, is the vulnerability to water contamination of the fuel tank via either the fuel fill, or more probably, the tank vent... It's amazing how poorly placed these are on so many boats, no effort made to have the fill situated proud of the deck where water will collect, or placing the fuel vent in the topsides below deck level or otherwise fully exposed to decks being awash. Or, lacking a shutoff valve or cap of some sort, so they can be sealed completely in heavy weather whenever the engine is not running... Mine is secreted high up inside a cockpit coaming box, not perfect by any means, but pretty immune to anything short of the most extreme pooping, and it can be capped in heavy weather, or to prevent moisture intrusion/condensation thru the vent when the boat is sitting over the winter, for example... The ultimate bluewater solution might be to have a diverter valve in the vent line before the vent fitting, to shut off the exterior vent on deck, and run the line to another location completely sealed from the weather - either in the lazarette, or into the boat's interior...

There's an account in SURVIVING THE STORM from the 43' Westsail POR VIDA, who rode out most of the '94 Queen's Birthday Storm relying their engine, after having lost their drogue due to chafe... They still say running off to a drogue was the preferred tactic, but running head to the seas under power became the next best option, and proved in their case to be pretty successful...

We can talk all we want about what each of us would do in such a storm, but I still say you'll never really know what you'll do until you get there. There are simply so many variables, every storm is different, and more importantly, every _HOUR_ throughout the duration of any storm can be different... A major storm at sea is the closest thing to combat that most sailors will ever face, and the famous dictum of General Helmuth von Moltke is the one that applies best, here...



> No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy.


As a result, I think you want to have your bag of tricks as full as possible... Storm sails, drogues, sea anchors, the works...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I agree that using the motor has its merits but it requires fuel and needs to keep running. One other thing about engines (this is true of mine as well) is that they can very easily become detached and do tremendous damage in a roll over. Most are only attached with rubber shock absorbers. One thing on my to-do list is to run some cable or Amsteel through the motor mounts so that the motor cannot move far. If an engine were to break free of mounts, it would also probably rip out the stuffing box as well, and maybe even shatter the fiberglass, causing flooding.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

there are a "million" ***edited**** reports or cruisers damaging their boats and engines in rollovers or bad seas etc when using engines...

they can go from simple lockups like mentioned or even something as little as clogged filters from all the swishing...

I mean we would hear of people damging it simply from a line over the stern and getting stuck...in calm weather....imagine a storm? thereality is in sailboat at least smaller ones its a no go on engine use...bigger boats have the advantage of lesser violent swinging...I know for sure that in choppy seas in 35-40 knots winds we were a no go on engine use on our 28foot ketch...basically the rolling was enough even with a mizzen and staysail only to keep things calm to do damage...especially lubrication...

my advise is anyone thinking of using the engine in MAJOR bad weather better think twice...or have major major hull strengthening, engine bed, and or like murphy says some sort of retainer for the engine, a good water lift etc...before doing so.

and this is just the physical aspect...low oil or starvation and bad lubrication simply running engine in choppy weather happens never mind 50 foot waves
better oil pumps are needed twin water intakes for example would be a great solution...

look at poweroaters or better fleet fishermen and how their engines are specd and retrofitted for deep sea and adapt that to a sailboat if you want to motor as a storm solution...or tactic.

for me I would never use the engine in those conditions...both from knowing what happens to them and how bad it is to do so and because I dont see it as a long term and viable option say in a 48 hour gale or storm...the fact is in storm conditions you would use 3 to 4 times as much fuel to keep way and youd run out very quickly

and how would you refuel?

you guys are going to tell me that you cant rig up a storm sail or walk on deck but you can jerry can the deck opening and pour fuel in?

absolutely and positevely not going to happen

so as a sailboat use your boat as a sailboat...if you want to run your engine in extreme conditions do so but know that it will run out of fuel quickly and if it dies it more than likely will need a major overhaul...

its a live or die scenario* only* that I would consider using the engine like a rocky lee shore...and only then...not to ride out a simple storm...

peace

svmurphy good job on the inner stay job...going down to the hull is a necessty in my opinion bulkheads arent that great a solution for that...

on my boat there is a nice track that is backplated but if do rig an inner forestay at least tying into the hull inside is needed well for peace of mind at least


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I think this was the storm?

Weather Network reporters' Les Suêtes experience goes viral - Local - Cape Breton Post


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> there are a million reports or cruisers damaging their boats and engines in rollovers or bad seas etc when using engines...


Crikey! Now I know I must be a lame-brain idiot because I have never heard of one of these reports, let alone 100 or your million....

I shall mend my ways and go find all these poor folks. But until I find one I will judiciously use all available resources when stuck in a storm.

One of the crab fishing boats in the Deadliest Catch fishery in Alaska was a member of one of these forums as he had a sailboat for the off season. He wrote an interesting article about when they cop the full fury of an Alaskan storm and they use the "jogging" technique described above of motoring slowly into eh swells at 45 degrees.

If the boat or the conditions dont allow your boat to neatly hove to and you dont wish to run off or use another tactic, then I think its fine to use the engine to keep the bow where you want it and make the way that you wish. 1 or 2 knots would be fine.
48 hours engine is negligible and every cruising boat would have that range in emergency on top of his projected fuel burn for the whole passage. On my boat 48 hours is only 5 gerry cans and thats doing 6 knots.

One other thing to think about is sailing in the correct season the storms will be shorter, less intense, pass quicker etc so 48 hours hove to, or in serious situation would be highly unlikely to happen in normal cruising areas between 40 north and south.

As a guess, on my boat if I couldnt keep the boat where I wanted it going upwind with heavily reefed main alone the the engine at 1,200 rpm would make sure it did. And thats just a bump above idle.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

well thats cause you never leave the cockpit much less go up on the bow so of course YOU are going to use your engine

ps no sailboat will keep pointed into the wind just above idle in storm conditions, much less just above idle in 60 knots against 50 foot waves what this thread was talking about

the alaska fishermen you quoted is correct and thats a technique they use...apllying that to our boats like I said is useless cause you havent modded your boat to do so...

you dont have thousands of horsepower to fight waves...much less breaking waves...

but go ahead go tick over with your jerry cans (oh how are you going to refuel in storm conditions again? ) and have a merry old time

again apples and oranges on techniques available...like someone else said its better to have variouos contingency plans, or backup plans or resort to this or that plans when the crap hits the fan...

like I mentioned engines get damaged on sailboats trying to do the powerboat thing all too often but sorry if I said a million reports...more like 999,999 or so reports give or take


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Yeah, what would a guy like John Harries know about storm tactics, after all ? He's done nothing but motor to places like Greenland and Svalbard in flat calms for the last two decades... 

Sailboat Engine Is Secret Weapon For Storm Survival


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

ah man no point...

the reason most high latitude sailors need massive power is to navigate the treachorous waters, filled with currents, big tides, dramatic underwater terrain etc...need more power to anchor in deep water...and bad holding bottoms...and cruise through ice packed waters etc...

and again big sailboats have more use for a bigger engine

but if you want to go fighting storms on a 30 footer with your engine and carry fuel to go to combat like that to each their own

I just love forums...you take one thing out of context expand and exaggerate the hell out of your point and try to make the other guys look lke a dumbass

kind of like the previous poster who called out people with storm jibs who set them on the bow as idiots and 70s lunatic sailors of days gone by

whatever

OH THE KNOWLEADGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> and again big sailboats have more use for a bigger engine
> 
> but if you want to go fighting storms on a 30 footer with your engine and carry fuel to go to combat like that to each their own


Probably the most effective tactic employed during the extreme survival conditions during the 1998 Sydney-Hobart, was fore-reaching or otherwise trying to work to weather... Many boats reported success with this active approach, which of course was made possible by the full crews of skilled sailors aboard all of the boats.










One of the most compelling accounts of this tactic comes from the skipper of BIN ROUGE, a 31-foot Farr design. I'd guess that boat probably had an 18 HP diesel, at most, and a minimal amount of fuel aboard for the race. This account is in SURVIVING THE STORM, and is notable in several respects, not the least of which is the extraordinary Kiwi knack for understatement (emphasis mine):



> By 1700 we have winds in the range of 60 to 85 knots, and seas from 50 to 100 feet (15-30 m) _*It is getting harder to handle the boat...*_


I seas of such a monstrous size, they found one of their biggest challenges was maintaining sufficient speed through the comparative 'lulls' experienced in the deep troughs, so that they would gradually lose steerageway while climbing the face of the next oncoming wave. By the time they approached the crest, they would be met by an increasing blast of wind which - coupled with their diminished steerageway - posed a big risk to them being put broadside to a breaking crest, rather than being able to power over the crest at a sharper angle, or at the point of the helmsman's choosing...

They started their engine initially to help ensure they would be able to tack successfully, after the decision was taken to abandon the race, and make for the safe haven of Eden... After realizing how much of an assist it provided, they motorsailed under trysail alone throughout the night, and all the way back into to the harbor at Eden... Certainly sounds like the use of the engine worked quite well for them...



christian.hess said:


> I just love forums...you take one thing out of context expand and exaggerate the hell out of your point and try to make the other guys look lke a dumbass
> 
> kind of like the previous poster who called out people with storm jibs who set them on the bow as idiots and 70s lunatic sailors of days gone by
> 
> ...


Hmmm, speaking of taking things out of context  Sorry, but I think you may be completely missing the point myself, MedSailor, and Mark have been trying to make here...

First off, my approach is to 'Never say Never'... I think it's a bit silly to rule out any device or tactic one might have in their bag of tricks in such a situation. Sometimes, an effective solution can be 'discovered' quite by accident. John Harries has another great example of this, when they found out that deploying a Galerider drogue from the bow greatly aided in keeping MORGAN'S CLOUD in a properly hove-to position in a gale with a strange wave train, that kept knocking their bow off the wind. Similar things have happened to me, I was once briefly lying ahull on my boat in a rising gale halfway to Bermuda, getting set up to properly heave-to, when I realized quite to my surprise that simply lying ahull - at least for the time being - was gonna be fine... Lying ahull is almost universally dismissed as a good tactic offshore in a gale, yet in that situation my boat produced a perfect slick directly to windward, the result of a directly sideways drift... I lay that way for about 8 hours, very comfortably, so it just goes to show : _You never know..._ don't rule anything out...

You might not care to ever resort to making use of your engine, that's fine... But that's a far cry from asserting that it cannot be a viable tactic, with so many reports out there of it being successful for others. We've had one here from Omatako, it apparently worked well for him in a Pacific storm... Motorsailing in certain circumstances is referred to by voyagers such as Evans Starzinger and Nigel Calder, and Dashew cites several instances of great success from using an engine in a big blow. At least 2 boats survived the Queen's Birthday Storm while running their engines. A very experienced delivery skipper named Pascual Grinberg was embayed during a winter storm in the Bay of Biscay with a Swan 43, a very weatherly boat. And yet, conditions were such that the only way he was able to make progress to weather was with an assist from the engine... Many less weatherly boats, heavy displacement full-keeled are but one type, can really struggle to claw to weather in a storm, if faced with having to do so off a dangerous lee shore... I've sailed many boats where I can easily imagine motorsailing could make all the difference in the world in such a situation...

Finally, I'm not hearing of these scores of stories that you are of boats being damaged as a result of running their engines in a blow, and I'm not getting the rationale for an engine being more likely to be damaged or torn off its mounts in a knockdown, whether it happens to be running at the time, or not...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Early spring was asked to do simple transport of a hinckley pilot with 4 aboard. Going from hinckley yard to duxbury ma. Buoy wasnt working. NOAA did not tell anyone so forecast wrong. Yard left chain in milk crate so engine intake through hull sheared at flange. I took along imhoff oil rig exposure suit. It snowed, then sleeted then blowed like stink for 4 d. Boat flooded, no engine, no electricity and blowed out the sails. One went down from fear. One who found through hull leak and fixed it from hypothermia. Two left. In exposure suit I could work the boat but with bilge/ diesel having burnt off hot engine could not go below without puking. Dave( other one functional) could go below but froze on deck. Storm passed. Jury rigged a sail. Headed west. Unable to do further navigation.Ran into situate . Found out we were declared overdue and lost.
Cold and wet kills. Dry suit is not enough and you can't live in it for days. Can't work boat in survival suit. If you intend to sail above 40n need exposure suit that fits at least two crew.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> First off, my approach is to 'Never say Never'... I think it's a bit silly to rule out any device or tactic one might have in their bag of tricks in such a situation.


Wiser words have rarely been spoken (technically written I guess) on Sailnet. I find it at best disturbing and at worst dangerous, when people on Internet sailing forums give prescriptive answers about how something should or should not be done (storm management, anchors, you name it). This is especially worrying when the people who are the 'experts' often have read everything about passage making but have little real world experience.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Probably the most effective tactic employed during the extreme survival conditions during the 1998 Sydney-Hobart, was fore-reaching or otherwise trying to work to weather... Many boats reported success with this active approach, which of course was made possible by the full crews of skilled sailors aboard all of the boats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sorry...medium and small boat just dont have the capacity to do this...so putting a pic of a huge 60 footer in fjords and ice was taking my point out of context...

(your quote of the sidney hobart 31 foot racer is a good one and is an example of it working...how long would be a good question to ask and di d the engine suffer any damage when arrving back to port is another one)

of course miracles can happen and when the crap hits the fan Im all for using any method possible...but for us real worlders sometimes you just dont have the full benefit of using these options...

in any case we have different opinions and views...arguing on forums has grown old a bit so ill just let it be really

just because you dont hear of sailboats suffering from using their engines in bad conditions doesnt mean it doesnt happen

one of the most common sailboat failures in every port is engine failure or ...using them in small sailboats Ill say 40feet and under is under most storm conditions not a good option unless you have done pertinent mods...but to each their own

most people on sailboat who power sail have issues with heel and lubrication and even water pickup depending on where the pickup is...so your saying all if a sudden these engines and boats can hammer trough 60 knot winds and 50 foot waves? and refuel?

THAT WAS MY POINT

a boat built and designed for high latitude sailing and specifically in places like the bering sea or the north passages or even down in chile in and out of tierra del fuego absolutely requires different equipment, rigging, anchoring techiniques and equipment, bigger stronger engine to fight the massive currents and winds...etc...especially since they are always close to ice and potential hazards..

in any case

ps i never said it wasnt a viable tactic...I said it wasnt feasible for small boats that didnt have enough reserve fuel especially when people were considering refueling to keep the engine running...THAT is not a viable tactic in any sense...we tried and failed miserably in a 30footer in conditions that werent remotely close to as bad as this storm is...

so from experience that is my point of view...

and just to add Jon I actually agreed that the best tactic is to have as many tricks up your sleeve as possible...as many contingency plans as possible and backups in order to survive...

peace


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

In the storm we were in, the wind ripped our canopy (actually a full enclosure) off the deck and the flailing pipework was potentially very dangerous and drove us all below. We hastily prepped the boat to lie a-hull and did so for a few hours until a broken wave hit the side of the boat (boats generally turn beam on when left to lie a-hull unfettered). That knocked cabinetry off the walls and rolled the boat to about 110⁰. It was not hard to decide this was not the way to continue.

Whilst we couldn’t see in the dark, we had early warning of the possible sea state from the apparent calms in the troughs, intense blasts at the peaks and even scarier, the barometer that was oscillating between 990mB and 1085mB in the rise and falls between the waves. So when daybreak came and we went on board and saw the sea state, it became clear that lying a-hull was not an option.

While motoring into the seas, we found that the biggest danger to the engine was when the bow fell over the back of each wave and the prop broke clear so it is to me very important to run at a moderate RPM (we ran at 1800) so as not to damage the engine with over-speeding at each wave-top. Remember the wave period is about 15 to 18 seconds and over-speeding the engine 3 – 4 times a minute for 12 hours doesn’t do it a whole lot of good.

We got knocked down by breaking waves a few times to more than 90⁰ while the engine was running and it appeared not to do much harm – let’s just say that the engine is still working fine 7 years and many hours later. Let’s be honest here – when the mast is pointing into the trough of the last passing wave and 1000’s of gallons of white water are pouring over the boat, staying alive trumps regulating engine RPM. Also running the engine at moderate speeds doesn't overly load up the restraints (mountings) and consequently the chances of the engine breaking free are not as good as if the engine were working really hard.

We have never heaved to in seriously heavy weather (not my philosophy) so I have no basis for disputing the process but I have first-hand seen 15 feet of rolling white water coming at my boat and I really question the reports that say “the slick left by the boat stopped the white water reaching us”. We had waves break not more than 30 metres from us and the white water simply rolled right over the boat. Maybe heaving to works when you don’t have 40ft waves breaking all over the place.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for posting the reality of the situation Omatako. It certainly is much easier to think about doing this or that and planning strategies than the reality of a situation, as you describe. I think the "slick" idea is mostly for heaving-to with a sea anchor, as described by the Pardeys in _Storm Tactics_, whereby the boat is parked directly in the slick. It would probably be very difficult to keep a boat in its slick without the anchor. I hope to never need to try it in that much white water!


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

smurphny said:


> . I think the "slick" idea is mostly for heaving-to with a sea anchor, as described by the Pardeys in _Storm Tactics_, whereby the boat is parked directly in the slick. It would probably be very difficult to keep a boat in its slick without the anchor. I hope to never need to try it in that much white water!


Yes, the essential difference between lying a-hull and heaving to is the anchor. No sea anchor, lying a-hull, sea anchor - hove to. AFAIK lying a-hull does not create any meaningful slick.

Actually while talking about slicks, legend sailor Eric Hiscock often reported that he lay a-hull and used a rag soaked in engine oil and draped over the windward gunwale. Allegedly the dripping oil created a significant slick that kept breaking waves away from the boat, apparently even in severe conditions with no sea anchor.

This I have never tried and hope never to have to.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Omatako said:


> Yes, the essential difference between lying a-hull and heaving to is the anchor. No sea anchor, lying a-hull, sea anchor - hove to. AFAIK lying a-hull does not create any meaningful slick.


I think most people tend to understand heaving-to in the classic sense as doing so without the use of a sea anchor, with the boat lying roughly 45 degrees off the wind, with the headsail backed, the main sheeted in, and the helm down - all of which in theory will conspire to 'stall' any forward progress, and result in a drift more or less directly downwind... What's often referred to as the "Pardey bridle method" is the one that relies additionally on the deployment of a sea anchor...

Of course, many of today's modern designs can be very difficult to be made to heave-to satisfactorily, and will want to fore-reach instead - which naturally results in their moving out of the protection of whatever amount of slick their leeward drift might be creating...



Omatako said:


> Actually while talking about slicks, legend sailor Eric Hiscock often reported that he lay a-hull and used a rag soaked in engine oil and draped over the windward gunwale. Allegedly the dripping oil created a significant slick that kept breaking waves away from the boat, apparently even in severe conditions with no sea anchor.
> 
> This I have never tried and hope never to have to.


As I mentioned in an earlier post, I wound up lying ahull with my boat for about 6 or 8 hours near the north wall of the Gulf Stream, on a trip out to Bermuda a dozen years ago... Of course, lying ahull is generally not recommended, placing the boat beam to the wave train is placing at it's most vulnerable to a breaking wave strike or knockdown. I wound up doing so quite by accident, during the time I was striking the working sails and prepping to switch to a trysail and storm jib to heave-to in the classic manner, I realized the boat was doing just fine lying ahull under bare poles. I still had a couple of hours before nightfall, so I figured I'd live with that for awhile, and see how it went...

Every boat is different, of course, but my heavy displacement and deep underbody, coupled with the mast very close to the center of the boat, resulted in an perfectly sideways drift, and producing a sizeable slick directly to windward... First time I'd ever seen that effect in action, and I was amazed, it was a wonder to behold 

Certainly, the conditions were not very extreme. The breeze remained mostly in the low 40's for the duration, strongest gust I saw was about 55. Seas were running perhaps 15 feet, but not breaking dangerously, just the crests tumbling or being blown off here and there... But the effect of the slick really was amazing in those conditions, a wave would approach and really appear to pose a threat of a good strike, but would simply dissipate when encountering the slick... Wave crests would be falling down the faces ahead of me, and behind me, but the boat simply sat there like a duck... Quite amazing, really... My decks and cockpit remained essentially dry throughout the entire time...

I still was figuring I'd have to take a more active approach as darkness approached, but after riding that way for awhile, I became more confident I would be good to go as long as conditions didn't worsen... I went below to get some needed rest, and it was so comfortable that I managed to oversleep by quite a bit... It was only late that night, as the wind started to abate and the wind pressure on the rig was reduced, that the rolling increased to a more uncomfortable degree, and I decided it was time to begin sailing again...

Make no mistake, I'm not endorsing lying ahull as a heavy weather tactic, I think my situation was very specific to my boat, and those particular conditions... Anything much worse, and I doubt it would have been as successful... Still, it was quite a revelation, and the effect of the slick was impressive...

Another trick I discovered again by accident, was sort of a lazy man's method of heaving-to... I was in the Stream again, beating from Isla Mujeres back up to Key West... Second night into the trip, I was getting beat up pretty good, very squally weather, slow and exhausting progress... I needed more than just a 20 minute catnap, so when yet another big squall rolled thru, I decided to park the boat for a while, dry out a bit and get some rest... Again, while preparing to set the sail plan for a sort of cross between heaving-to and fore-reaching, I realized that under a deeply reefed main alone, and the windvane left set for beating to weather, the boat again simply sat there like a duck, with just enough way on that the vane could maintain a steady heading, which was especially important given the squally and shifting conditions... Techincally, I was fore-reaching, but it was more like being hove-to, particularly in the calming effect, and how much more comfortable the motion became, and how much 'quieter' everything seemed... As many times as I've hove-to even for just a short break, it's always a revelation what a game-changer it can be... For that reason alone, I will always rate a boat's ability to heave-to without too much input or drama, as one of the most important design characteristics of any boat that will be sailed offshore... To my mind, the importance of that cannot possibly be overstated, and yet so many boats today are clearly not especially well-suited for the task...


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Iv'e tried the slick making when practising heaving to in about 30 knots and its a bit teeny weeny tricky. In higher winds where you may want it I reckon it might be even harder.

The Parachute sea anchor, on the other hand, really sets up a huge slick. But must be very difficult to recover after the blow, unless the wind drops right out.

Lay ahull on a boat I was crewing on off the Grand Banks in a short and nasty sea. The stupid skipper wanted to try his pet idea. I refused to do it in my watch (the owner agreed), so when i went off watch the skipper lay ahull and the lot of them were spewing their guts up. Lolol
. Its dead set dangerous


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Understand every boat is different and having owned boats from full keeled double Enders to bulbed fins can attest to that. For me issue is average mom and pop won't know how their boat will react until they are in the storm and every storm is different. Therefore look to past experience and see all configurations of vessels behaved well with a JSD in actual storms. Hoving too works for some boats in moderate storms as does fore reaching. Bare poles is unlikely to be successful for most boats.
Would suggest as weather worsens:
Reef early reef often
Go to around 60 or 120 awa depending on desired course and proximity to land.
Hove to or fore reach under storm jib/ try sail or 3 reefed main
Drop every thing and deploy JSD
Go below and pray

Think storm anchors off bows leave modern rudders too likely to be damaged if vessel thrown aback. Think with fatigue and fear running while steering a saw tooth pattern requires attention and skill most won't have. Think biggest thing for mom and pops like me even after having been through some weather is to practice our heavy weather plan even if it's only in a strong breeze or gale. For instance found out my wife intuitively can surf the boat in 35-45k for hours but miss times things going to weather. I steer better standing than sitting and can time things better sometimes by closing my eyes for awhile to get the rhythm. AP works better on course than awa if >8-10' seas.Think trouble comes when the storm jib has never been out of the bag or the drogue is always dry. Think the other advantage of the JSD is you have a hope of retrieving it. From what I've read single devices end up just being cut away.
Look forward to the general advice you more experienced gentlemen can offer.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The idea of lying ahull in breaking seas seems to be a lapse of basic logic. Why would anyone purposely allow their boat to be exposed broadside to breaking waves? I can understand doing this to take a break in mild conditions but not when using it as a survival technique. If anything can be done to keep one of the pointy ends headed into the waves, it would present a better choice.

I do like the oil slick idea and always keep some waste oil with that in mind. Just seeing how the oil in a chum slick can calm the water for MILES behind the drift of a fishing boat makes this a thing to consider.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Series Drogue, ocean survival


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

JonEisberg said:


> I think most people tend to understand heaving-to in the classic sense as doing so without the use of a sea anchor..


Jon, of course you're correct, the use of a sea anchor is additional to heaving to - I'm so unaccustomed to any "stalling tactics" that I sort of viewed lying a-hull without any sails up and heaving to with sails and helm opposite as one and the same and of course they're not. My apologies.

As it happens, I prefer to keep the boat moving one way or another and sailing with minimal cloth up or even under bare poles, if it can be done without surfing, is my preference to standing still in any conditions.

Motoring into big seas is a last resort if my drogues are not effective enough to stop surfing or if breaking seas can be avoided by going around them.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> The Parachute sea anchor, on the other hand, really sets up a huge slick. But must be very difficult to recover after the blow, unless the wind drops right out.


However, that slick created by a para-anchor will be - as per the recommendation of most manufacturers - somewhere between 400-600 feet upwind of your bow... It's a bit difficult for me to picture that having too much of a positive effect...

Sea anchors for use on monohulls really seem to have fallen out of favor in recent years, especially since the advent of the Series drogue. A number of experienced voyagers - John Harries and Evans Starzinger come to mind - see lots of potential difficulties with their use, difficulty of deployment, the issue of chafe, and so on, and they simply no longer appear to be the first choice of many... I'd still like to have one aboard, however, 'cause you never know...



MarkofSeaLife said:


> Lay ahull on a boat I was crewing on off the Grand Banks in a short and nasty sea. The stupid skipper wanted to try his pet idea. I refused to do it in my watch (the owner agreed), so when i went off watch the skipper lay ahull and the lot of them were spewing their guts up. Lolol
> . Its dead set dangerous


Well, I'd suggest that, as usual, _"It depends..."_ I've already described a very favorable experience with lying ahull, which I thought presented very little danger at the time...

Of course, it was by no means a serious storm or anything remotely approaching survival conditions... On the other hand, 40-50+ knots at sea on a 30-footer is not exactly a walk in the park, either... I just happened to be lucky, it never got worse than that, and my boat was ideally suited to lie ahull in that very particular instance...

I certainly would think twice about trying that in most modern boats, with less volume below the waterline than mine. I think one of the keys to my being able to maintain an absolutely sideways drift, and the creation of a wide slick directly to windward, is the deep forefoot on my boat... Most lighter displacement, shallower hulls with flatter bottoms, more freeboard, very little forefoot, and masts placed further forward, the natural tendency would be for the bow to fall off, and the boat would then be making forward progress, and no longer be sitting in whatever little slick might be created...










Such things are always a rather delicate balancing act, for certain. When I had that experience, I was still using a hanked-on staysail instead of the furler I now have. Who knows, perhaps even that modest amount of additional windage up forward might now upset that balance, just enough to now make my bow fall off enough for the boat to want to start 'sailing' again... And as much as I like the idea of some of the Solent-style double-headed rigs that are becoming more commonplace today, that arrangement does place a considerable amount of additional windage very far forward, likely making it difficult to heave-to or keep the bow up with fore-reaching in a serious blow... As always, everything on a boat is a compromise...


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

For what it is worth, I have the full parachute anchor setup and would trade it for a series drogue. In fact, if we cross the North Atlantic I will get the series drogue. Seems to me that the parachute sea anchor would be a one-time only thing. I think it would be very, very hard think to recover. A fair expenditure if it saves your life but not something you use even semi-rgularly.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

killarney_sailor said:


> For what it is worth, I have the full parachute anchor setup and would trade it for a series drogue. In fact, if we cross the North Atlantic I will get the series drogue. Seems to me that the parachute sea anchor would be a one-time only thing. I think it would be very, very hard think to recover. A fair expenditure if it saves your life but not something you use even semi-rgularly.


I wonder if getting the sea anchor out and using it, would maybe make it a less daunting task. Just the thought of dragging out the chute, all the line, trip line and float, and pennant line, then getting it all soaked with salt water, dragging it back in and packed up soaking wet is enough to keep it in the bag. Mine is in exactly the same condition it was in when delivered by UPS The drogue idea seems a lot easier but I still don't like the idea of putting the stern to sea. No matter what officialdom may say, if the conditions were bad enough to warrant deploying survival equipment, I'd want the bow meeting those breaking waves.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

outbound said:


> Understand every boat is different and having owned boats from full keeled double Enders to bulbed fins can attest to that. For me issue is average mom and pop won't know how their boat will react until they are in the storm and every storm is different. Therefore look to past experience and see all configurations of vessels behaved well with a JSD in actual storms. Hoving too works for some boats in moderate storms as does fore reaching. Bare poles is unlikely to be successful for most boats.
> Would suggest as weather worsens:
> Reef early reef often
> Go to around 60 or 120 awa depending on desired course and proximity to land.
> ...


Here's a pretty compelling account of the use of a JSD in a Force 12 storm. I linked to this one recently in the Mono vs. Multihulls thread, but it fits here, as well...

Eric Freedman is another very experienced passagemaker, with quite a knack for understatement 

Prepare for survival conditions - Ocean Navigator - May/June 2011


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

That's what Smackie would call a BFS. Thanks for the citation Jon. My concern is we have a hard dodger ( really over built not a worry) but also a hard Bimini. The hard Bimini is a delight cruising. Window above helm allows you to see sails. Perfect place for the solar so they aren't shadowed. With Sunbrella insert to dodger you can hang out in the cockpit in the rain and not get wet when at anchor and stay warm/fairly dry if underway. Concern is if we are pooped. These guys were on a 53' Amel CENTER cocpit and taking water in the cockpit. I've seen 2" pipe on empty davits get bent in storms. The Pardeys make mention of nearly being severely hurt when clothe dodger came down on them and suggest no dodgers nor Biminis if passage making. We are reconstructing the supports for the Bimini to have two loops of 4" ss pipe under fore and after and network of pipe underneath. Height above waterline line is >13' but still worry.


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