# Freedom Sailboat



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I am a complete novice at this, so please be nice. I have looked at a Freedom sailboat and I am wondering what other peoples opinions of these boats are. I want to be able to cruise the Gulf Coast and beyond. The 33'' ketch I looked at had a centerboard and to me (unknowing) seemed to be very well made. The ideal of free standing masts is really appealing to me. Can some of you offer your opinion and what you know first hand about this brand. Thanks.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You will get better comments than mine from more knowledgeable participants. But I have known a few owners and they comented that jibing was out of the question, they go all the way around instead. These were on single rigs however, not cat ketches. I have also heard that they do not point well because of the fat mast not allowing proper luff filling. I would like to try one out sometime however as the simplicity is appealing.

Gene


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I am somewhat familiar with the ketch rigged centerboard model of the 33. I helped a friend who lived in Savannah but was buying one here in Annapolis. I got to go through the boat quite carefully during the survey and to sail on the sail trial which actually was quite long and involved a pretty wide range of windspeeds. I frankly saw very little that I liked about these boats. 

In terms of sailing ability, the boat offered Okay reaching performance but was a very poor sailor in light and heavier air, and poor at pointing or running. This boat had the wrap around sail which was a bear to raise and which tended to creep around the mast leaving extra cloth on one side of the mast that tended to flap really killing speed and shaking the whole boat as the windspeeds built up. Key sail shaping controls were inaccessible under the wrap around portion of the sail. Sail shape was imposible to maintain as the wind came up and sails would be extremely expensive for this boat (kind of like buying four mainsails).

In the survey a whole raft of problems came up but most serious were extensive delamination in the cored hull in those areas below the deck scuppers. In examining the specific detail used at the scuppers, I believe that this condition was bound to happen to any Freedom 33 constructed in the same manner as the boat I was on. 

With all due respect, I find myself saying this a lot lately and in fact this part is cloned from another reply earlier this week, but here goes. We all come to sailing with our own specific needs, our own specific goals and our own specific capabilities. The neat thing about sailing is that we all don’t have to agree that there is only one right way to go sailing. There is no more truth in expecting that there is one universally right answer about many aspects of sailing than there is in trying to prove that vanilla ice cream is universally better than strawberry ice cream. One area of sailing for which there is no one universally right answer involves the amount of knowledge one needs to go sailing. 

For some, all they need or want to know about sailing is just enough knowledge to safely leave the slip sail where they want and get back safely. There is nothing inherently wrong with that approach. But for others, like myself, there is much more to sailing than simply developing a rudimentary knowledge of sailing basics. If you fall into that camp, it is next to impossible to learn to sail really well on a boat as large as the one in question. 

While I am in no way suggesting that this makes sense for you personally, If you are interested in learning to sail beyond a rudimentary level, this kind of boat is a really lousey choice for a first boat. For someone who really wants to learn to sail well, I strongly suggest that they start out owning a used 23 to 27 foot, responsive, light-weight, tiller steered, fin keel/spade rudder (ideally fractionally rigged) sloop (or if they are athletically inclined then a dinghy.) Boats like that provide the kind of feedback that is so necessary to teach a newcomer how to really sail well. By sailing well I mean understanding the nuances of boat handling and sail trim in a way that cannot be learned on a larger boat. Used small boats generally hold their values quite well so that after a few years or so of learning, you should be able to get most of your money out of the small boat and move on to a bigger boat actually knowing something about the desirable characteristics of a boat that appeal to you as an experienced sailor rather than some stranger on some Internet BB.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## coondogger (Oct 2, 2003)

Jeff raises a good point. The Freedom cat-rigged ketch is not a straightforward arrangement. It would be better to learn on a conventional rig. You'll develop skills that have more widespread application. All catboats are trimmed differently and sail differently from sloops. As far as gybing, it depends. I've owned a Nonsuch 30 and a Freedom 25. Both are extremely fast boats offwind. But can be tricky to gybe in heavy air. The poster was correct. Many catboat sailors opt to 'wear ship'.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I was also interested in Freedom Yachts some time ago. I started a post here solociting comparison between Pearson and Freedom that you may want to check out.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Contact CardiacPaul, he owned one of these for a long time, and IIRC loved it. Most of the boats have had the clunky mast furled sail systems replaced with new conventional furling systems. TPI has a good reputation for working with carbon fiber, and makes a good boat. Notwithstanding Jeff's well informed criticism of them, I think they are good boats if you are suited to them. Many of the unfavorable sailing characteristics which he points out would be corrected with the conventional furling methods on most refits. This has no bearing on his or others' comments on what boat to sail. As for The Freedom 33, I think the centerboard version is not as useful as the full keel version, simply because of the huge CB trunk in the middle of the cabin. But you can get them more cheaply as a result. Other issues on these boats include surface delamination on the spars due to their wrapped construction. You need to examine the masts closely to determine if the fiberglass which encases the carbon fiber has cracked. This could be an expensive fix. There is also a documented issue with spider cracks on the gelcoat. Google Freedom owners groups and ask these questions before going any further. For what it is worth, I agree with Jeff that this is not the boat to learn to sail on. Good luck!
Freeman


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

*Jeff has no idea what he's talking about*

Everyone knows Strawberry ice cream is better than Vanilla.

JH, hope all is well. Haven't spoken in a very long time.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I simply loved the 33. 

I don't know if it was easy to sail because I knew how to sail, or it was easy to sail because it was... easy to sail. 

And it was easy to sail. I had those damn wrap arounds, and because I'm as strong as your typical 12 year old, I had to plan my raising of the sails. It was easy to reef.

I do agree with Jeff that its probably not the boat to 'learn" on, but, that being said, if you're interested in one, ask the former owner to spend some time on her with you. 

In lieu of that, theres another thread going that lists a VERY good contact about these boats. 

The CB version does cut down on cabin space, it wouldn't have been a problem for us, I can see where it'd be a pain for others. 

On the upside, they don't draw a heck of a lot with the board up (and it doesn't need to be fully deployed either) so the bene's outweigh the PITA factor. IMHO

I know there was an "issue" concerning gelcoat crazing. I don't know anything about that, we were in texas sun, and never had a problem on a 25 year old boat. It held up a heck of a lot better than my 27 catalina (nothing against the catalina either) I think it has a lot to do with many other issues not to be addressed here.

Theres been a lot of talk about CF masts and again, I think its because of the relative "oddity" of them that makes people hypersensative. Maybe I wasn't in strong enough winds, but I don't remember any discernable "flex" of the mast.
Same with the "lightning" issue. i don't think, but I can't prove that they're any more apt to be struck than anything else. Damage from lightning? I can't say about that either... LOL, I don't know a heck of a lot do I?

In short, If I had the chance to get a centerboard 33 here in S. Florida, I'd be all over it like a fat kid on a snickers bar.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

And I'm still looking for mine!


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

*Freedom*

I own Freedom 28, Cat Ketch, Centerboarder. It's identical to Freedom 33, just a bit smaller. I love the boat. Anyone telling that boat is slow and sails not well should look at US PHRF numbers. Thanks to US sailing, there is a table on their site showing all numbers for the boat across a country
US PHRF
According this table my boat is faster than most cruisers of the same size.

Boat is really easy to single hand. It is a slow boat in light wind - it's a penalty for having full keel. However boat does everything well, including going upwind, downwind it is just fast. 
I'll try to attach my sailing tGPS tracks. I have to confess that I've been racing small boats with unirigs. Freedom just feels right for me.

Well, I couldn't upload files even they are small. Trust me


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## intheleigh (Sep 15, 2008)

Greetings all,
I am new to this site as well, but having just purchased a Freedom 28 Cat Sloop (is that how you say that?) I must say the mast is a delight. I have the wing mast as opposed to the round one. We went sailing for the first time since the sea trial..which wasn't very long, and the boat performed really well. One of the interesting things I noticed about the mast is that by over rotating the mast a bit, more air flows into the sail. I am sure this cannot happen with the round carbon fiber mast. I was sailing in light air (5-10 knots) and the boat did well. Not however as well as if I had a Jib hanging out there for sure. I have owned a Cal 24 (not flush deck), a Frisco Flyer, an S&S 34' Yawl, and a Kettenburg PCC 46. While the Freedom does not sail anywhere as well as most of those (Better than the Frisco Flier though!) it IS a VERY easy boat to sail.. Point, and shoot. Not fast but acceptable. Downwind, I cannot see much keeping up with it when the spinnaker is flown. Its suprisingly fast downwind. 
This is not the last boat I will own, and probably not the last one even this year. In The Leigh will be for sale sometime in the spring after she has been lovingly restored. For me, the love is fixing her while I sail her. 

Nothing quite so nice as simply messing about in boats...


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## intheleigh (Sep 15, 2008)

ok.. I was reading the posting above me, and posted the wrong thing.. I own a Freedom 25' Cat Sloop, not a 28. UGH.. brain farts.


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## beidson (May 26, 2009)

*Still Looking to sell Leigh?*

Hi - I realize this thread is pretty old, but I see you mentioned that you might be looking to sell your Freedom 25 sometime in the future....that's now....

Still planning to let it go? Where are you located?

Bill


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## intheleigh (Sep 15, 2008)

Bill...
It is kind of the future yes... and I will sell her. (Good time to be asking!!! Pretty cold here at the moment.)  
The boat is put in at Pickwick landing State Marina, in Mississippi. 
I would make a great deal at the moment. As I put more work in, the more the boat becomes.. ya know?
Michael


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## beidson (May 26, 2009)

Good to hear from you Michael. What sort of work are you doing on the boat these days?

Bill


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## racquetballnut (Oct 1, 2012)

I own a Freedom 25 in Savannah, GA that I bought from my parents. I have been sailing it since 1987. It is a wonderful boat to sail. It is very fast as I raced it for 12 years. The forward mast makes the Freedom a very forgiving boat. You can purchase a jib that has a built in forestay to give you additional pointing ability if you want. Off the wind with the large main there are not many boats that will keep up. A few years ago I raced a race that allowed no spinnakers. We beat 30 and 40 foot boats. We would lose a little to the wind with the larger boats, but on a reach and downwind she was untouchable. If we could have thrown the kite up no one would have stayed up with us. As for jibing, it is no different than any other boat. I have raced on Catalina 25's, 27's, 30's and Thomas 35 as well as have sailed on many others including a Freedom 35. Jibing can be controlled with the main sheet just like any other boat. Best bet is to see if you can take a test sail if you can. The Freedom line is very stable. Drawing it's design from a Cat boat that was designed as a stable fishing boat. It is meant to be crewed by 1 to 2 people. I have sailed it single handed many times. You will have fun with this boat.


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## brusi (Oct 10, 2012)

Interesting comments ...... I've just purchased Freedom 32 and never hesitated
or seriously look at any other boat. She is slightly damaged and that will be my winter project. Looking forward for my first sail on her. Cheers.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2014)

I also own a Freedom 28 Cat ketch, centerboard version and think the boat is very well designed, well thought out and sails Great! I am an experienced sailor with blue water experience and time campaigning modern go fast boats & dinghy's like the 470, 505, J-100, and Melges 24. I did learn to sail in dinghies & totally agree that the way to learn how to sail is in a small responsive boat, like a dinghy or small, tender keel boat. Once you know what your doing & how to do it, the Freedom is a great platform for fun sailing. 
I have the wrap around sails & am changing now to singly-ply, full battened sails, to get more roach aloft for better pointing & light air performance. Off the wind, or even close reaching in 5-knots or better, she sails great. In real light wind she has a little trouble getting going to windward, but she goes and has that nice diesel if time is running short. As a catboat, she can't point like a sloop, but crack off a few degrees, and you are off. I have no trouble with jibes or tacks - favorite on-board hail is "Tacking, everyone do nothing!" I also use a downwind "screecher" which I can fly from either mast, depending upon point of sail, but it must be doused and reset on jibes, unless I'm flying it off the end of the pulpit. She was initially called a "broad reacher" and a recommended configuration was with the apparent wind at about 150-degrees or so, set the main way out to windward, at about 110 - 120 degrees from center-line, set the missen to leeward, and fly the screecher in the hole between them - very fast & very balanced, and will keep you moving even in light air.
I cruise her, and gunkhole with the board up. Planning some real traveling in her for next summer. A very nice, solid boat. - Andy Garte


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## tanzertom (Jan 4, 2015)

I too am considering a Freedom primarily due to the ease of single handing, not only under sail but also getting in and out of slips and in close quarters. All boats are a compromise and opinions vary depending on priorities. After reading almost every post on every site I'm noticing a distinct trend. Those who own or have owned Freedoms almost universally love them, love the way they sail and experience few if any of the concerns expressed by those who have not, many of whom seem to be very knowledgeable on sailboats in general. The mast issue is especially frustrating due to its criticality. It would be nice to know what percentage of Freedoms have actual mast failures as compared to other of comparable size/use. Same with pointing. Some stats comparing actual up wind performance would settle the issue. Is the upwind performance so poor as to cause concern when dealing with a lee shore? If not, the performance on all other points of sail would seem to more than offset the upwind performance. I do notice almost no concern with quality of build except oddly universal concern about the almost universal use of cored hull. I appreciate all the discussion and especially the conflicting views as they identify important issues for further investigation. Now, I must find a way to eliminate a Nonsuch from consideration... other than price :=)


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

Upwind comparison stats will be hard to find. What I can offer is that I raced mine for the first time last year against a large variety of boats while towing a 10' RIB with motor attached. The first race was a about a 5 mile beat close hauled in which an IC24 (modified J24), Benetau 40, Ericson 36, Jeanneau 45, and Starrett 45 beat me to the mark (island). Rounding the small island the course was a deep reach for about 4 miles to another mark (island). During the reach I gained substantial distance on all the boats ahead of me. Leaving that island to port the course was a DDW run for another 5.5 miles to the finish. During the run and having my sails wing and wing I passed everything except for the IC24 flying a spinn and surfing the waves. Had the course been even .25 miles longer I would have passed the IC too. Everything except for the IC owed me time. The next day was an upwind beat in which I finished 4th on corrected time. The IC, owing everyone time, finished 1st by a large margin boat on boat. The Bene 40 with an experienced race crew was 2nd. The Ericson 36' was 3rd. After handicaps applied my Freedom finished 3rd overall towing a heavy RIB being beat by an IC that goes to weather extremely well and a well sailed Bene 40. 

Your question about sailing off of a lee shore. Through an unfortunate chain of events I found myself leaving an anchorage and slowly motoring through a narrow channel straight into about 15kts of wind when I lost propulsion. The main (forward) sail was raised about 2/3 before the lee shore started looking a little too close for comfort. On the helm I was able to pick up enough speed and point high enough to find a comfortable angle away from the shore for a couple of minutes before making a slow tack. In the middle of the tack I was able to get the sail the rest of the way up. Off onto a port tack and sailing with a good sail shape we easily sailed off the shore while raising the mizzen. One more tack and we were very clear and sailing away with a large enough safety margin for me to leave the helm and see WTF happened causing this little bit of unwanted excitement. In essence we sailed off of a lee shore with a partially raised sail with a horrible sail shape.


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## tanzertom (Jan 4, 2015)

FarCry said:


> Upwind comparison stats will be hard to find. What I can offer is that I raced mine for the first time last year against a large variety of boats while towing a 10' RIB with motor attached. The first race was a about a 5 mile beat close hauled in which an IC24 (modified J24), Benetau 40, Ericson 36, Jeanneau 45, and Starrett 45 beat me to the mark (island). Rounding the small island the course was a deep reach for about 4 miles to another mark (island). During the reach I gained substantial distance on all the boats ahead of me. Leaving that island to port the course was a DDW run for another 5.5 miles to the finish. During the run and having my sails wing and wing I passed everything except for the IC24 flying a spinn and surfing the waves. Had the course been even .25 miles longer I would have passed the IC too. Everything except for the IC owed me time. The next day was an upwind beat in which I finished 4th on corrected time. The IC, owing everyone time, finished 1st by a large margin boat on boat. The Bene 40 with an experienced race crew was 2nd. The Ericson 36' was 3rd. After handicaps applied my Freedom finished 3rd overall towing a heavy RIB being beat by an IC that goes to weather extremely well and a well sailed Bene 40.
> 
> Your question about sailing off of a lee shore. Through an unfortunate chain of events I found myself leaving an anchorage and slowly motoring through a narrow channel straight into about 15kts of wind when I lost propulsion. The main (forward) sail was raised about 2/3 before the lee shore started looking a little too close for comfort. On the helm I was able to pick up enough speed and point high enough to find a comfortable angle away from the shore for a couple of minutes before making a slow tack. In the middle of the tack I was able to get the sail the rest of the way up. Off onto a port tack and sailing with a good sail shape we easily sailed off the shore while raising the mizzen. One more tack and we were very clear and sailing away with a large enough safety margin for me to leave the helm and see WTF happened causing this little bit of unwanted excitement. In essence we sailed off of a lee shore with a partially raised sail with a horrible sail shape.


Thanks, FarCry, that is really useful information and confirms the more subjective comments I've found from other Freedom owners. If I can find a 30/32/33 that is in my price window, that will likely be my next boat. Going to look at a 38 in Beaufort NC as soon a the current Arctic Vortex allows. Do you have recommendations on any specific Freedoms? From my mast research, seems the few alloy masted ones should be avoided... fatigue a factor much more so than the CF masts. I'll be sailing off the Carolinas and the NC sounds around Oriental NC so any insight on shoal drafts vs others will be appreciated. I want to stick to a 4' foot draft.


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

Windward, leeward, round-the-buoy sailing is fun in a Freedom, but generally won't put you on top of the standings. IMHO, the boat shines in longer, downwind or beam reach, and high wind courses. Now, if I could just hurry up and become a better sailor....

I am getting better at pointing, and have not had any problems with the mast or cored-decks. I LOVE my boat.

As to stats, if you find any please let me know. I have a 141 PHRF (non-spinnaker rating).


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

gamayun said:


> Windward, leeward, round-the-buoy sailing is fun in a Freedom, but generally won't put you on top of the standings. IMHO, the boat shines in longer, downwind or beam reach, and high wind courses. Now, if I could just hurry up and become a better sailor....
> 
> I am getting better at pointing, and have not had any problems with the mast or cored-decks. I LOVE my boat.
> 
> As to stats, if you find any please let me know. I have a 141 PHRF (non-spinnaker rating).


I think that your rating of 141 is a good indicator of the relative performance hit that the Freedom's take for having a freestanding rig. I believe that you said that you have a Mull-designed Freedom 38. Mull was one of the best race boat designers of that era and designed some very fast boats.

To put the impact of the freestanding rig in proportion, compare the Freedom 38 rating of 141 to the rating on something conservative like an Ericson 38 at 111, or my 38 foot performance cruiser, which is a 10 year older design, at 87 with spinnaker (non-spinnaker rating in Maine of 99).

A ten year newer Mull design should have been as fast, or faster than the Ericson 38 or an older Farr 38 rather than owing 40-50 seconds a mile. I suspect the speed difference comes from the greater drag of the freestanding rig, the heavier structure required to support a free standing rig, and the distortions in the hull form that are needed to carry the mast that far forward.

Jeff


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

tanzertom said:


> Thanks, FarCry, that is really useful information and confirms the more subjective comments I've found from other Freedom owners. If I can find a 30/32/33 that is in my price window, that will likely be my next boat. Going to look at a 38 in Beaufort NC as soon a the current Arctic Vortex allows. Do you have recommendations on any specific Freedoms? From my mast research, seems the few alloy masted ones should be avoided... fatigue a factor much more so than the CF masts. I'll be sailing off the Carolinas and the NC sounds around Oriental NC so any insight on shoal drafts vs others will be appreciated. I want to stick to a 4' foot draft.


Sorry, the only other Freedom I've been around is a CC 40' one with aluminum masts. It is for sale currently for a very low price. The owner bought it new in the states, sailed it down here and has used it for day charters ever since. It has a centerboard. Good luck on your search and if it's not already been mentioned, there is a wealth of info to be found on www.freedomyachts.org


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

Jeff_H said:


> I think that your rating of 141 is a good indicator of the relative performance hit that the Freedom's take for having a freestanding rig. I believe that you said that you have a Mull-designed Freedom 38. Mull was one of the best race boat designers of that era and designed some very fast boats.
> 
> To put the impact of the freestanding rig in proportion, compare the Freedom 38 rating of 141 to the rating on something conservative like an Ericson 38 at 111, or my 38 foot performance cruiser, which is a 10 year older design, at 87 with spinnaker (non-spinnaker rating in Maine of 99).
> 
> ...


You're probably right on about this. I wish I knew more about how the ratings are established or how different boats were designed to understand why an Ericson or Farr are that much faster than a Freedom, but it does seem likely that it has a lot to do with that 75% jib and the position of the mast. It's not a great boat for light wind sailing and there's little control over mast bend with no back stay. In my case in choosing a Freedom, however, as with most boat decisions, it came down to compromises and that didn't include going fast (OK, well, now I do care more about that....). What I wanted at the time was a boat that: had a swim platform for diving, had a boom that I didn't have to duck while standing in the cockpit, was capable enough to not get laughed off a race course, was comfortable to live on for extended periods, was easy to learn on, would not break the bank, and was well-built. Though I'd never sailed a Freedom before I bought mine, the F38 met all these criteria and more. It has been two years and I'm still happy with it.


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## brusi (Oct 10, 2012)

Great information regarding Freedom boats! I don't race mine (1984 Freedom32) but after extensive repair work couple of years ago I single handed sailed her to Bahamas and back to Nova Scotia and was extremely happy with her performance especially in rough weather, and easy reefing system! Unfortunately do to a health reasons, boat will be offered for sale early spring!


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## breezer (Feb 21, 2019)

Does any body have a n opinion on a 1984 28' Freedom Cat Ketch.
I will appreciate your thoughts.


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## fletcher01 (Feb 23, 2019)

I sailed on a couple and really dig them, enough in fact, to consider buying one locally. 
A couple issues I see though - one is on earlier models that have wraparound luff sails as opposed to conventional track luff. They are alleged to be difficult to raise, and lose their shape in a breeze.
The other issue is that they have balsa cored hull and deck. On a boat as old as they are, I would be wary of wet cores. It difficult enough to repair cored decks. A rotten balsa cored hull would be disastrous. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


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## mcartret (10 mo ago)

TSOJOURNER said:


> You will get better comments than mine from more knowledgeable participants. But I have known a few owners and they comented that jibing was out of the question, they go all the way around instead. These were on single rigs however, not cat ketches. I have also heard that they do not point well because of the fat mast not allowing proper luff filling. I would like to try one out sometime however as the simplicity is appealing.
> 
> Gene


Respectfully you “heard” wrong, in my opinion. I purchased and sailed a Freedom 30 for over a year now, and have not seen such anomalies. I agree you should experience one for yourself.


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