# insurance/survey



## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

ok. this is about my 'new' cal27. the marina knows the boat so they aren't asking me to get a survey. however, liability insurance is required. they are being really good about working with me but i don't want to push them too far. 

the problem, so far, has been the age of the boat. all of the insurance companies, so far, have required a survey. i was going to go with state farm because the price is great and, until today, they didn't say anything about a survey. however, when i went to get the policy started, it came up.

so, here's my problem. i never have carried insurance on a boat, before. i'd only have it now, because i have to. i haven't started calling around but i was told it would probably cost be between $10 and $20, a foot, to get it surveyed. that exceeds the cost of the boat just to have some guy look at it. that's not even a guarantee he wouldn't miss something. i need to buy a motor, yet. and running rigging. and bottom paint ( etc ). and spending $300 to have a guy tell me what i already know....

if i was going to get it surveyed, i'd want to wait til i got done what i know needs done, so he could tell me if i missed anything. but i don't think i will be able to wait, til then, for insurance.

anyhow, so i am looking to see if anyone knows an insurer that isn't going to ask for a survey or a surveyor that isn't going to ask for my right testicle, in payment.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Hmmmm...
don't want a survey until you fix it up --
can't keep it where you can fix it without insurance --
can't get insurance without a survey -- 

Are you familiar with the phrase "Catch-22"? 

Maybe you can get a policy with a whacking great deductible.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Looks like you may lose the left nut as well.


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

Caveat: this is coming from a guy who knows what he doesn't know and I don't know a lot about this topic, but I'll venture a guess and offer a possible direction for further inquiry on your part.

The survey is usually required so the underwriter can be sure the boat is worth what it's being insured for, and is in a condition that it's not going to sink once the lines are let go. Apart from the boat sinking at the dock and spilling fuel into the surrounding waters or the mast falling down and crushing someone walking down the dock, I'm curious as to why the condition of the vessel has much to do with liability for damage done in a marina. The reason the marina wants you insured may be that lawyers working for people who have sustained losses look for people they can blame/sue who have deep pockets. If you don't have insurance, the marina is next in line to be sued. They don't like that, and neither would their insurance company, which may be why there's a requirement that you have personal liability cover on the boat, i.e. the marina's insurer requires them to require you to have liability insurance so they're not the first in line when a law suit is filed.

Personal liability involved in taking people out in the boat is another matter -- the condition of the vessel has a direct impact on this. The marina isn't involved in this type of liability, but it may be that insurance companies can't separate the two types of liability -- i.e. that in the marina setting, and that once underway.

Talk to your home owner's / renter's insurance broker/company. You may find out that you're covered as far as personal liability is concerned up to the limits on your homeowner's / renter's insurance. 

Others here, more knowledgeable than I, will certainly offer better insight and advice.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

billyruffn said:


> .....
> Talk to your home owner's / renter's insurance broker/company. You may find out that you're covered as far as personal liability is concerned up to the limits on your homeowner's / renter's insurance.
> 
> Others here, more knowledgeable than I, will certainly offer better insight and advice.


I think this is a great place to start.. You're not insuring for any kind of replacement value, the marina wants the coverage in case you do damage to the docks or neighbours..

Oh... and same caveat!


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

27x10=$270. that exceeds the cost of the boat ? OUCH ! My broker is State Farm I have had good luck with them . Perhaps you could have another sit down with them and emphasize the situation that you only need liability . But really a survey is not the end of the world . Case in point , a guy bought a sail boat that was next to me . The PO rarely came to the boat , it had sat there for about 7 yrs. The PO was a good guy and wasn't trying to hide anything . The new Cpt. didn't get a survey. I was helping him with some stuff , and I said open up that seacock . It got loose! It was found that there was a steel reducer! (finest HomeDepot) . Another case in point, years ago a boat caught fire a couple of slips down from me it started at the shore power plug on the boat . Boat was a total ,me I was ok thank you. So to wrap things up here a survey might of caught these things .


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

captain jack said:


> i was going to go with state farm because the price is great and, until today, they didn't say anything about a survey. however, when i went to get the policy started, it came up.


What is the stated value of the boat?

My State Farm rep told me that they require a survey on boats with a replacement value of over $20k. I insured a Catalina 25 with a stated replacement value of $8k with no survey. My Pearson is insured for more and I did need to get a survey.

Different agents and different regions may of course vary. I'm in Seattle.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Hmmmm...
> don't want a survey until you fix it up --
> can't keep it where you can fix it without insurance --
> can't get insurance without a survey --
> ...


lol. yeah. you called it. that's what it is....not that i can afford a survey, now, at tose prices. i'm not sure the deductable will make a difference. i guess i could ask.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

billyruffn said:


> Caveat: this is coming from a guy who knows what he doesn't know and I don't know a lot about this topic, but I'll venture a guess and offer a possible direction for further inquiry on your part.
> 
> The survey is usually required so the underwriter can be sure the boat is worth what it's being insured for, and is in a condition that it's not going to sink once the lines are let go. Apart from the boat sinking at the dock and spilling fuel into the surrounding waters or the mast falling down and crushing someone walking down the dock, I'm curious as to why the condition of the vessel has much to do with liability for damage done in a marina. The reason the marina wants you insured may be that lawyers working for people who have sustained losses look for people they can blame/sue who have deep pockets. If you don't have insurance, the marina is next in line to be sued. They don't like that, and neither would their insurance company, which may be why there's a requirement that you have personal liability cover on the boat, i.e. the marina's insurer requires them to require you to have liability insurance so they're not the first in line when a law suit is filed.
> 
> ...


i don't own a home. this boat is the biggest thing i own.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Markwesti said:


> 27x10=$270. that exceeds the cost of the boat ? OUCH ! My broker is State Farm I have had good luck with them . Perhaps you could have another sit down with them and emphasize the situation that you only need liability . But really a survey is not the end of the world . Case in point , a guy bought a sail boat that was next to me . The PO rarely came to the boat , it had sat there for about 7 yrs. The PO was a good guy and wasn't trying to hide anything . The new Cpt. didn't get a survey. I was helping him with some stuff , and I said open up that seacock . It got loose! It was found that there was a steel reducer! (finest HomeDepot) . Another case in point, years ago a boat caught fire a couple of slips down from me it started at the shore power plug on the boat . Boat was a total ,me I was ok thank you. So to wrap things up here a survey might of caught these things .


i have nothing personal against a survey, although i'd rather get it after i repair the known issues. it's a financial thing. in other words, i can't swing the extra $300 right now.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Alex W said:


> What is the stated value of the boat?
> 
> My State Farm rep told me that they require a survey on boats with a replacement value of over $20k. I insured a Catalina 25 with a stated replacement value of $8k with no survey. My Pearson is insured for more and I did need to get a survey.
> 
> Different agents and different regions may of course vary. I'm in Seattle.


well, that i don't know. i have seen them go for 3000 and i have seen them go for 6500. te reason they gave me was the age. the underwriter won't cover a boat that old without a survey.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Ask the insurance broker if he will give you "Port Risk" liability coverage until you get her fixed up and then get the survey. 

I can't see anyone giving you coverage on a $300.00 boat for general liability. A $300 boat is a screaming red flag and the risk is just not worth it against what it costs to remove a potential sinker or fire risk (their point of view).


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

boatpoker said:


> Ask the insurance broker if he will give you "Port Risk" liability coverage until you get her fixed up and then get the survey.
> 
> I can't see anyone giving you coverage on a $300.00 boat for general liability. A $300 boat is a screaming red flag and the risk is just not worth it against what it costs to remove a potential sinker or fire risk (their point of view).


ok. sounds like you know something about insurance. is a 'port risk' liability policy a common thing?

the boat wasn't a wreck, just abandoned. she's not taking on water or anything. i explain how i got it at that price, when they ask what i paid for it. but i guess i see your point. it's the age that makes them want the survey.


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## ozsailer (Aug 25, 2007)

Hi Captain Jack,
Here in Oz if the boat is over 15 years old most insurance companies now require a survey every 2 to 5 years and also when a person buys a boat. There a lot more people getting 3rd party insurance as they believe their boats are not worth insuring. One thing to consider is not so much what your boat is worth but what occurs if your boat is responsible for an event which damages one or several other boats, many today are very very expensive. Not having a go but what is going to cost more, Insuring the boat and get the survey and have no worries if something goes wrong or having a life long debt if it all turns bad. Only recently there was a large fire at a local marina, Four boats totally destroyed. Estimated value 3 to 4 million. Hope the guy who boat was the cause of the fire is insured. Here in Oz some insurance companies are now refusing to insure boats on moorings yet there is a huge lack of marina's to put a boat, catch 22


Greg and Sue


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I genuinely hope you can avoid a survey. Ir sounds like some here have given you reason to believe that for an inexpensive boat and/or liability only coverage, you might be able to avoid it. That's good news.

But if it's unavoidable and you need to "bite the bullet" and get a survey, you should let go of this idea that survey cost has anything to do with what you paid for the boat. It can be argued that the older/cheaper a boat is, the more difficult it will be to survey, and hence the more it will cost...and the more it is needed. You should realize that by getting a boat for very little money, you're going to pay less in up-front cost, but also may pay more for other things later. Not everything is going to be reduced in proportion to your original purchase price. So be glad whenever you can trim costs, but realize that some things will not be avoidable.

Make sure any potential surveyors know that this is an insurance survey, and not a pre-purchase survey. The latter usually costs more.

I used State Farm (my auto and home carrier) for my boat for my first year. After that first year I realized a couple of severe deficiencies in their policy. A couple of the deficiencies limited their potential replacement payout (which is irrelevant for a liability-only policy). But they also did not cover liability for environmental damage, which can be a huge bill. I switched to BoatUS, which covers over $800,000 in environmental damage. You need to consider that, especially if you are doing a DIY repower with diesel. My annual premium for my 25' boat is about $150, with full coverage but $1000 deductible.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

I'm with foremost for liability they didn't want survey just good pictures from all 4 sides showing that the boat wasn't derelict. Foremost insurance group fredrick MD 866 592 3770 mine cost a c note a year for 300k liability. (Mines older than yours 68 islander)


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Contact the guy you bought the boat from get his agent who previously insured the boat bam your done, go sailing  Life is so easy


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## Unkle Toad (May 11, 2013)

I was told today that possibly progressive does not require a survey for Liability. worth looking into.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

ozsailer said:


> Hi Captain Jack,
> Here in Oz if the boat is over 15 years old most insurance companies now require a survey every 2 to 5 years and also when a person buys a boat. There a lot more people getting 3rd party insurance as they believe their boats are not worth insuring. One thing to consider is not so much what your boat is worth but what occurs if your boat is responsible for an event which damages one or several other boats, many today are very very expensive. Not having a go but what is going to cost more, Insuring the boat and get the survey and have no worries if something goes wrong or having a life long debt if it all turns bad. Only recently there was a large fire at a local marina, Four boats totally destroyed. Estimated value 3 to 4 million. Hope the guy who boat was the cause of the fire is insured. Here in Oz some insurance companies are now refusing to insure boats on moorings yet there is a huge lack of marina's to put a boat, catch 22
> 
> Greg and Sue


there's no question about getting insurance, or not. i have to. it's a matter of how....due to the survey requirement. at least here i don't need to get it every few years. yikes!


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> I genuinely hope you can avoid a survey. Ir sounds like some here have given you reason to believe that for an inexpensive boat and/or liability only coverage, you might be able to avoid it. That's good news.
> 
> But if it's unavoidable and you need to "bite the bullet" and get a survey, you should let go of this idea that survey cost has anything to do with what you paid for the boat. It can be argued that the older/cheaper a boat is, the more difficult it will be to survey, and hence the more it will cost...and the more it is needed. You should realize that by getting a boat for very little money, you're going to pay less in up-front cost, but also may pay more for other things later. Not everything is going to be reduced in proportion to your original purchase price. So be glad whenever you can trim costs, but realize that some things will not be avoidable.
> 
> Make sure any potential surveyors know that this is an insurance survey, and not a pre-purchase survey. The latter usually costs more.


thanks sir. that's good to know. this is all new to me. every piece of info i get is a nugget of gold. this fits right in with the future of sailing thread. it's not learning to sail that is hard. it's jumping through the hoops of boat ownership! 



TakeFive said:


> I used State Farm (my auto and home carrier) for my boat for my first year. After that first year I realized a couple of severe deficiencies in their policy. A couple of the deficiencies limited their potential replacement payout (which is irrelevant for a liability-only policy). But they also did not cover liability for environmental damage, which can be a huge bill. I switched to BoatUS, which covers over $800,000 in environmental damage. You need to consider that, especially if you are doing a DIY repower with diesel. My annual premium for my 25' boat is about $150, with full coverage but $1000 deductible.


boats US was my first quote. then i learned tey needed a survey. if i have to get a survey, then they are back in the running.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

newhaul said:


> I'm with foremost for liability they didn't want survey just good pictures from all 4 sides showing that the boat wasn't derelict. Foremost insurance group fredrick MD 866 592 3770 mine cost a c note a year for 300k liability. (Mines older than yours 68 islander)


no kidding. you even have the local number for me. wow. thanks. i will call them.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Unkle Toad said:


> I was told today that possibly progressive does not require a survey for Liability. worth looking into.


cute kitty. looks like one of my girlfriend's cats.

i am with progressive for my bike and truck. they were my first call. you are right. they didn't want a survey but for what they wanted for the policy, i could have afforded the survey and still saved money with state farm. pay now or pay later. well, actually, since they only let you divide boat payments in to two or three payments, it would be pay now or pay now and later. lol.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> Contact the guy you bought the boat from get his agent who previously insured the boat bam your done, go sailing  Life is so easy


if only it was that easy. the PO abandoned the boat at the marina. i bought it off of the lean dock.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

captain jack said:


> ok. sounds like you know something about insurance. is a 'port risk' liability policy a common thing?
> 
> the boat wasn't a wreck, just abandoned. she's not taking on water or anything. i explain how i got it at that price, when they ask what i paid for it. but i guess i see your point. it's the age that makes them want the survey.


I am a surveyor and have often dealt with people in re-fit mode. Some insurers will give "Port risk" policies for vessels being re-fitted. Some will insure the boat in-water with the proviso that it not leave the dock until they have a good survey and some will only insure it while it is on the hard.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

A couple emails to our insurance agent got our boat added as a rider to our homeowner's policy for an additional $66/year add to our premium. All they required was some basic info on the boat and the hull id. It gives us the same liability protection as under our homeowner's policy and insures damage or loss of the boat, but honestly I did not spend too much time looking at the latter coverage. The purchase price of our boat was ~$6,500.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

Jack;
I'm with Progressive, too. I found the costs considerably less than any other outfit I tried...AND no survey. I also have comprehensive; so it's not a matter of liability only.

YMMV


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

I agree with Deltaten, I'm with Progressive and they were/are very reasonable, even with me have a "totaled" boat on my record (Hurricane Sandy). My first boat, a Catalina 25, was purchased for $1000. We insured it for $4000, and it was worth closer to $6000-8000. The insurance company never asked for a survey. I suspect that if you're going with a liability-only, or liability plus a very small value, the insurance won't be bad at all. I'd call the broker back or call Progressive directly.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

One last thing to ask the insurer. Ask who underwrites the boat policy I found several contract with formost for the marine specific policy.


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

captain jack said:


> i have nothing personal against a survey, although i'd rather get it after i repair the known issues. it's a financial thing. in other words, i can't swing the extra $300 right now.


Am I the only one who wonders why such a fellow even contemplates owning a free boat??


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

boatpoker said:


> I am a surveyor and have often dealt with people in re-fit mode. Some insurers will give "Port risk" policies for vessels being re-fitted. Some will insure the boat in-water with the proviso that it not leave the dock until they have a good survey and some will only insure it while it is on the hard.


i knew you sounded like someone in the know.  thank you. if the insurer recommended in the previous post doesn't turn out, i will start asking around about that. it would give me time to finish my planned work and save for a survey, if i have to get one. who knows...when the time comes and i am finished, depending on my money situation, i might opt for an actual survey to make sure i didn't miss anything. two eyes are better than one. lol. that's true, since you don't see cyclops running around frequently, however, perhaps i should have said four eyes are better than two.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Am I the only one who wonders why such a fellow even contemplates owning a free boat??


yeah. i knew that would eventually come up: the idea that only those with disposable wealth should own boats. already heard that argument in another of my threads....about an actually free boat. it's that idea that is partially responsible for young people not taking up sailing. supposedly:

you have to have money so you can buy a ready to sail boat and pay all the usual fees and pay others to work on your boat for you. or...

you have to have money, to pay for surveys ( and similar pricey non-repair costs ) so you can repair your fixer upper. of course, unless you are just a well to do fellow with a love of boat refitting, why wouldn't you just buy a boat that is 'turn key' if you have money like that?

no one with any actual money is going to walk on a lean dock and buy a boat, like mine, that needs a lot of work to put it right, unless he's buyihg a boat with collector value or needs a hobby.

boats, like mine, are perfect for those who don't have a lot of cash but have a strong desire to sail....a situation many young people, and others, might find themselves in. however, it's the costs of things like surveys that can keep a person of lower financial ability from getting involved in sailing. people want to say you shouldn't even contemplate owning any boat if you don't have a nice money cushion to fall back on then everyone wants to wonder why the younger generation isn't taking up sailing.

i don't believe that owning and sailing a boat is only for those with money. i believe it's for those who have the true desire and love of sailing. and, despite the doubting thomases that stand by boating being the exclusive pleasure of those who have money, i am going to make this happen because i have the desire and the love of sailing. where there is a will, there is a way.

it's simply a matter of finding the way. people of limited income find ways to do things, despite their lack of wealth, every day. of course, those with money to toss about freely don't know anything about that.

i grew up on motorcycles and always loved choppers. i have never been in a financial situation to buy a ready made chopper. they cost a lot of money. so, i built one. i have a lot of skills and talents and i made 80% of the parts from raw materials. i don't have a big, well equipped shop, like orange county choppers. i have a stick welder, and an ancient lathe, an old drill press, a cutting torch, a grinder, hand tools, and a 4' X 4' steel table in the driveway.

once done, my bike ended up getting featured in the local paper. i've had hunderds of people take pics of it or ask if they can photo their girlfriends sitting on it. there have been a few occasions i caught someone pacing me, on the highway, filming me ride. my bike draws attention everywhere i g0. it's hard to leave a gas station, for the people wanting to come and talk to me about it. right after i bult it, a guy offered me 12,000 for it, right on the spot ( i turned him down. it's my dream chopper and not for sale ).

how much did it end up costing me to build such a machine? under $5000. less than the cost of a nice, used stock motorcycle. way less than the cost of a hand built chopper, or other custom, of the same quality. but it took a lot of work, and dedication. choppers aren't only for rich yuppie 'bikers'. they are for people who love choppers and have the will and dedication to ride/own one.

same thing with sailboats.

you can damn a guy, without money, for striving to reach his dreams or you can do like most of the folks on this site: you can try to help him with your ideas, experience, and knowledge. i have found, sailers tend to be willing to help each other. i know i have helped a lot of other sailors, and other boaters, while i have been out sailing.

personally, if i see someone striving for goals that are not easily attainable, i don't rain on their parade by telling them it can't be done and they shouldn't even try. someone with the courage and will to strive, for more, gets my admiration and support. it's easy to attain things if you've the money but easy accomplishments don't have much meaning, in my book.

one of the biggest parts of achieving difficult things is to find ways around your limitations.

ok. that's my rant, for the day


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

jimgo said:


> I agree with Deltaten, I'm with Progressive and they were/are very reasonable, even with me have a "totaled" boat on my record (Hurricane Sandy). My first boat, a Catalina 25, was purchased for $1000. We insured it for $4000, and it was worth closer to $6000-8000. The insurance company never asked for a survey. I suspect that if you're going with a liability-only, or liability plus a very small value, the insurance won't be bad at all. I'd call the broker back or call Progressive directly.


i am with them on my motorcycle and truck. they were the first ones i called. no survey required. way higher than others i called. maybe it's just the guy who did my quote....


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

captain jack said:


> yeah. i knew that would eventually come up: the idea that only those with disposable wealth should own boats.


If having an extra $300 laying around is anyone's idea of "disposable wealth" the problem is even greater than I expected!!

Otherwise, it appears you have gotten some pretty good free advice already.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

captain jack said:


> i have nothing personal against a survey, although i'd rather get it after i repair the known issues. it's a financial thing. in other words, i can't swing the extra $300 right now.


But you were able to spend nearly that much on a boom kicker?
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/109249-boom-kicker-anyone.html

Looks like the boom kicker cost you $200ish.

On a new cheap boat a $300 survey that helps you learn about problems is a good investment. It's a lot more useful than a boom kicker...


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Jack, with all due respect, I think what most of the folks are trying to do is to keep a sense of reality for you. It's not going to be cheap to fix up or maintain the boat, and for some of us, we wouldn't go sailing in a boat that wasn't at least 80-90% ready to go. Many of us take our families out, and with them aboard things are very different. For example, for me, I wouldn't let my family aboard our Allmand until I had cleaned out and done some work on the boat. This is what she looked like the day of my survey:




See all the piles of C**P everywhere? The sails stuffed into the vberth? The dorm fridge strapped down with bungies? There's also rotted, splintering wood in the cabin, mold everywhere, and a few leaks that create puddles in the cabin.

Now, the guy who owned her before I bought her, he lived aboard. For him, the boat was (apparently) just fine. For me, there's no way my kids, and especially my wife, could come aboard. There were health and safety issues that HAD to be addressed before that could happen. To get the boat to my level of satisfaction before I let my family aboard, I had to sink a few grand into her (not including the engine work we had to do). If I hadn't read some of your other threads, I would assume that, like most of us, you were trying to get the boat up to "ship shape" ASAP, and I think that's what many of the commenters here are assuming, too. What they are trying to warn you is that, at the rate at which you're able to invest in the boat, getting her ship shape may take a long time. In addition, if it turns out that there's something major (e.g., needing a complete repowering, a standing rigging failure, etc.), all the money you've invested may go down the tubes unless you're able to find the cash to make the big repairs. As you said, sailors tend to like to help each other out, and I think that's what many of the folks have been trying to do, too: they are trying to help you understand the bigger picture before you possibly lose it all. And when something as relatively inexpensive as a survey is the reason that your dream may fall apart, maybe they have a point.

That being said, having read some of your other threads, I know you're going to ignore the budget-related feedback. I also know that you've been sailing a while and are comfortable with the idea, for example, that you might not have a working engine. So, in an effort to help you get out on the water and enjoy your new toy, I'd suggest calling Progressive again, and especially calling a different agent or calling the company directly. I and others here have found their prices reasonable, and in fact less than many of the others, so it's worth the few minutes on the phone.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

WouldaShoulda said:


> If having an extra $300 laying around is anyone's idea of "disposable wealth" the problem is even greater than I expected!!
> 
> Otherwise, it appears you have gotten some pretty good free advice already.


:laugherwell, dude, there have been times where i was scraping together 50 cents to have enough gas in my bike to get to work. for many people, $300 extra bucks, that they can just grab all of a sudden, is a lot of money. quite a few of us live check to check. an emergency pops up. there are no savings to draw on. all your money went to daily survival. but you find a way. lots of average working class people spend their entire lives 'finding a way'.

me. i get by and accomplish my 'higher' goals by judicial sacrifice on other fronts. just last week, i finally broke down and spent the $30 for a new pair of work boots. my old pair has lasted through tough conditions for a year, now. the sole, of my right shoe, was completely separeated from the knuckle on my big toe to the beginning of my heel, on the instep. the sole of my left shoe has separated from the end of the big toe to the ball of my foor, also on the instep. and the topsides were in various levels of deterioration. the steel toes had been plainly visible for months.

but other stuff came first. my girlfriend needed help with her car. i do the work but buying parts was out of her financial ability, with all the other expenses of life. so, despite my lack of the money to do so, i did my job as her partner and i bought the parts, too. you find a way. it's been a bad year for emergencies popping up and it's left me pretty tight. $300 might as well be $1000.

getting this boat, an unusual opportunity for me, was more important than my shoe condition....to me....so, i let the shoes go.

i know a lot of folks, who are better off than me, that juggle their expenses the same way.

and you are right. i have gotten some gresat advice on here. the folks on this site are awesome. the willingness to try to help a fellow sailor is absolutely inspiring, as is the supportive attitude. a lot of good people, here.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

jimgo said:


> Jack... phone.


i fully understand that...and i do understand the difficulties involved. i'm not going to sail this boat until i think she's safe, either. it's more than my safety riding on it, not that i relish the idea of drowning.

i am not against the idea of a surveyor, per se. i don't have the money, now, and i trust myself. i am my strongest critic, on everything i do. i measure 5 times and cut once. in my work, i tend to be a perfectionist.

when it comes to juggling the money, to you, the survey is a better expenditure than the boom kicker. to me, the boom kicker is a part of the re-fit. it's going to make the boat better to sail. the surveyor...not that i am narcing surveyors because i am not...is less important to me because i have faith in myself.

i don't ignore people's financial advice ( or any of their advice ). i just take the advice i get, decide how it fits my needs, and then plot my course accordingly.

my 'rant' wasn't because it bothers me being told that it's going to be difficult. i am ware of that. it's the attitude that, if you don't have money, you shouldn't even bother. did you read the post that my 'rant' was a response to?

it's a totally negative attitude. sounds like something my mom would say to me. the whole time i was building the chopper, she kept telling me, over and over, that i'd never get it done. then, when it was obvious i would, she spent months telling me i'd kill myseelf on it ( because i certainly wasn't capable of building a bike ). then, a few years later, when this ******** cut in front of me and hit me ( it's just lucky my dad taught me how to ride well and to keep my eyes open or i'd be dead, now ), i had to rebuild the bike. my mom kept telling me i should take it to a shop because i might miss something. i bulit the bike...made most of the parts. i know every nut and bolt on it. how the heck could some guy who had never even seen it be better at rebuilding it than me? she kept insisting i was going to mess it up and get myself killed.

despite all the things i have accomplished in life, she never has faith in me. thankfully, i do. i have proven myself to myself, many times.

anyhow, i have a real issue with someone telling people...telling me... they shoudn't try because a task is beyond them. it's the same thing as saying, 'give up. you aren't worthy. why are you even trying?'

and that's the thing, it's one thing to tell someone their road will be full of obstacles; quite another to imply they shouldn't be trying to walk that road because they don't have what it takes.

i don't need more people telling me i am doomed to failure so i shouldn't try. my mom is enough. thankfully, the great majority of people, here, don't do that. yeah. many warn me of possible problems. and that's cool because it may be stuff i am not aware of. but most don't just straight up tell me that i shouldn't even try because i don't have a lot of spare money to spend.

perhaps you can't see the difference but i can. i appreciate all the people willing to give me advice, even warnings, that will help me achieve my goal. never doubt that. those people are being supportive, not casting doubt.

in order to succeed at any undertaking, you must first believe that you can succeed. if you start off doubting yourself, you are beaten before you begin. many people have achieved amazing things through terrible obstacles....things others thought was impossible. you don't know what you, or anyone else, can do, until an attempt is made to do it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

so many of you have had a better experience with progressive than i, on boat insurance. i will have to try them again, if this other company, 'foremost' i believe it was, doesn't pan out. maybe i jusy got the wrong guy on the phone.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

ok. dependng on whether the marina will work with me, i believe i have an answer, unless a better one pops up.

i tried progressive again. while all of my other quotes was between $75 and $150 for a year, they want $500 a year. same as my last quote from them. that's way too much and they want it in 3 sizeable payments. i could pay a surveyor $300 and still save money with any of the other companies i checked with. i talked to the lady about it, extensively, and i have no idea why the huge price difference.

foremost, who another poster suggested, quoted me $100 a year and no survey. the caveat is the photos. i have no problem giving them photos but they need photos of her hauled, so they get pics of the entire hull. 

it's going to cost mde $265 to have her hauled and on the hard for a week, so i can scrape and paint. it's too cold for painting, now. i can't afford to have her hauled twice.
so, i asked them to mail me the quote and save it. i explained the situation to them and let the know i was going to proceed after i haul her.

now, i need to talk to the folks at the marina and see if they will work with me a little longer, on the liability.i will be putting in an electronic bilge pump, this week ( one of their other requirements ) and paying my slip fee, too. hopefully, seeing that i am doing my best, they will continue to be understanding.

thank all of you for your advice and suggestions. you have been a huge help in this project, thus far. hopefully, sometime, i can return the favor.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

thats what I used when in berkeley progressibe liabilty 100K damage to others or 3rd party or whatever they want to call it

it was the fastest option for me but this was like 7 years ago in california...my boat at the time was 25ft...and it was around 300 a year...i paid 6 months...the rest was no pay...seemed realy decent to me at the time, and I was paying the boat loan at the same time too...

i had to take no pics, no haulout, nothing...just the cf numbers...year etc...

good luck boss

christian


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Your answer seems to be convincing the marina to not require liability insurance for a few months, this may not be possible for them, their insurance may require it.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

captain jack said:


> ...i'm not going to sail this boat until i think she's safe, either. it's more than my safety riding on it, not that i relish the idea of drowning.
> 
> i am not against the idea of a surveyor, per se. i don't have the money, now, and i trust myself. i am my strongest critic, on everything i do. i measure 5 times and cut once. in my work, i tend to be a perfectionist.
> 
> when it comes to juggling the money, to you, the survey is a better expenditure than the boom kicker. to me, the boom kicker is a part of the re-fit. it's going to make the boat better to sail. the surveyor...not that i am narcing surveyors because i am not...is less important to me because i have faith in myself...


In this case, it's blind faith. No matter how many choppers you've built and rebuilt, you've never refitted a boat. Making a boom kicker one of your first buys shows how little you know about setting priorities on this boat.

Nobody's telling you that you don't have enough money to have a boat. But some are telling you that you're wasting it naively buying things like a boom kicker at this stage.

A good surveyor would tell you what you REALLY need to fix now, and what can wait until later. You'll get some guidance on how to spend that next $200 that comes your way. It would be money well spent. Since you seem to acknowledge that you'll get a survey after you've fixed the stuff you want to fix first, why not get the survey first, and prioritize according to what a real expert says is important?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

thanks. 

i have to go teach class but, when i get back, i am going to address the financial/budgeting issue, since it came up and it is a valid issue.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

New boat owner? The insurers don't want to touch you.
Old boat? The insurers don't want to touch you.
Abandoned boat? Doesn't matter what it is, that defines it as "worthless" and again, the insurers don't want to touch it. 

Bottom line, there are good reasons they don't want to touch it, whether you can appreciate those issues or not.

Assuming you pay rent to live somewhere, you can also get renters or tenants insurance, and that's often fairly inexpensive, and then for another couple of hundred bucks, you can add a high-value liability umbrella on top of it. Which might just cover the boat.

You can ask any "home" insurance company, or broker, about looking at that option. For the cost of the survey, you might get insurance that covers your whatever-you-live-in, all your stuff that is there, AND the liability for the boat and much more. 

You may know that all the thru-hulls are solid and secure and the hoses aren't rotted and the keel isn't leaking, but the insurance companies don't know who you are. They want the survey because the surveyor is a paid professional and they're willing to bet on what he says as being fairly accurate. (Fools.)


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

It must be the age boat. I bought a 1988 Catalina 22 a month or so ago and got it insured through BoatUS on-line with 3 pictures for $150 a year. That's $300k in liability and the boat is in insured for $7,500. I'm on a lake in Arizona so maybe that helps, no tides, currents or hurricanes.

BTW, jack, I wish I was more like you. I've been a slave to the man and corporate America for far to long. I may have cash, but I'm far from free....


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

azguy said:


> It must be the age boat. I bought a 1988 Catalina 22 a month or so ago and got it insured through BoatUS on-line with 3 pictures for $150 a year. That's $300k in liability and the boat is in insured for $7,500. I'm on a lake in Arizona so maybe that helps, no tides, currents or hurricanes.
> 
> BTW, jack, I wish I was more like you. I've been a slave to the man and corporate America for far to long. I may have cash, but I'm far from free....


it is the age. over a certain age and they want a survey.

well, there is a price to pay for everything.

i have had a number of people that have said they could be more like me. they admire my freedom riding and sailing or the fact that i often live 'outside of the box' so to speak. but i pay for that freedom.

kind of like riding and sailing.

i went 7 years without a car, after high school, so i could ride. it was one or the other, so i sold the car. the motorcycle was my priority. it was my first car was a bike and a bike will be my last car, too. i was free in the wind but it came at a price. it get's pretty cold, here, in the winter and you don't know cold til you've ridden a motorcycle for an hour or two in single digit weather. man, back then i couldn't even afford decent riding gear. it's really cold when it's in the upper 30s and you get soaked to the bone with rain. the shivering just becomes non-stop. and ice and snow are really a danger. flash floods are pretty hairy, too.

man, i could tell you some stories about the stuff i have ridden through.

but, through it all, i was riding and i was willing to deal with the hardship. and i have done that all these years because i love to ride.

sailing is like that. i sail my 9' dinghy all year long, too; in some crazy conditions, too. last new years eve, i went to the lake ( during the day, of course ). it's an hour and some change north of here. i took my snow shovel because i had to shovel snow off of the dock before i could sail. it was a beautiful day of sailing. better than new years eve, a few hours later.

of course, i have no appropriate clothes for that sort of thing. no money for it. i dress in layers. long johns. sweat shirts. i wear dock shoes instead of sailing barefoot, which is what i usually do. but you can't dress as heavily as when you ride because you have to have mobility. and, it does get severely cold in the wind, on days like that.

heck, i have sailed past ice flows, other winters. it was totally cool. but, if i ended up in the water, it wouldn't have mattered that i can't swim and my life jacket wouldn't do much good either. hypothermia. i'd have been done for in short order. and the winter winds tend to be a bit rougher so it's a lot riskier. but, i get to sail and be free.

some day, the cost of my freedom may be my life. if so, it's a good deal. you have to die sometime, somehow.

but most people wouldn't want to deal with the cold and the risks to get that freedom.

life is like that. there are no free rides. we all pay a price. it's just a different price.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

capttb said:


> Your answer seems to be convincing the marina to not require liability insurance for a few months, this may not be possible for them, their insurance may require it.


part of the answer. time will tell. if i can't put them off that long, i will find another way. perhaps i can put them long enough to raise money for a survey, if it becomes necessary. i will just have to play it by ear.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> In this case, it's blind faith. No matter how many choppers you've built and rebuilt, you've never refitted a boat. Making a boom kicker one of your first buys shows how little you know about setting priorities on this boat.
> 
> Nobody's telling you that you don't have enough money to have a boat. But some are telling you that you're wasting it naively buying things like a boom kicker at this stage.
> 
> A good surveyor would tell you what you REALLY need to fix now, and what can wait until later. You'll get some guidance on how to spend that next $200 that comes your way. It would be money well spent. Since you seem to acknowledge that you'll get a survey after you've fixed the stuff you want to fix first, why not get the survey first, and prioritize according to what a real expert says is important?


i said i might. not that i would.

the boom kicker was on sale. had i bought it after doing the other things that are higher on the list, i'd have paid a lot more for it. i was thinking ahead. it's like not needing butter, when it's on sale, so you don't buy it even though you know you eventually will need it. and then lamenting the cost of butter when you actually do need it.

i'm not ready for bottom paint, at this time. it's way too cold to paint anything, actually. but, if bottom paint came on sale at 40% off, right now, i'd do my best to find the money for it because i know i will need it and by gretting it now i can save money.

maybe that doesn't make sense to anyone else, but i grocery shop by what's on sale and, if i find something, on sale, that will keep and i know will i need it, even though i don't now, i'm going to try to buy it while it's at a discount price.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

ok. i said i'd go into the finance thing. so, here's the deal.

i was employed as the assistant to the superintendent ( also punchout and a little bit of everything else )on a residential construction site. i was groissly underpaid for what i did but i had a job. i got by through judicious juggling. and i did pretty good, sometimes.
i scored side work a bit, based on my abilities. i never advertised or sought it out. it came to me.

at the end of feb, the site ended. boom. done. i got one month severance. for the previous 3 years my boss had pushed me mercelessly. too much responsibility. rarely a day off. never more than one off. tons of OT. hectic non stop daily routine. much much worse than you'd normally see in construction. but that's because there was nothing that got done on that site that didn't touch my hands, in some way. and i had way too many fires to put out. during my first summer, there, my boss had said to me, " it's amazing how much work you get done in one day! and for a 40 ywar old man, no less!"

that's how it was for three years and the push got harder as the site wound down because there is a tremendous lot to do, when a job site ends. and most of the weight fell on me. it began to wear on me. during the last six months, i suffered a back injury, once, and i tore the meniscus and injured a ligament in my left knee. another time. that knee is still not 100%. anyhow, i was planning on taking a month break before getting another job. i needed to recouperate.

however, my mom's boyfriend had gotten cancer that last year. it got much worse around the time the job ended. although i was on a cane, i spent the first two weeks of my 'vacation' running around the hospital and taking care of my mom and helping with him. then he died. since then, my mom has been very dependent on me. terribly so. i have done a lot of home improvements, and stuff for her, too. 

with all that going on, i made a decision that allowed me a flexible schedule so i could take care of my mom. i had loads of side work lined up. i have been doing that as kind of a freelance construction job, all this year. the recent snow fall hasn't been very helpful, though. it's paid as good as, sometimes better than, my job did. and i could write my own hours. 

the money is not steady. i get a partial payment at the beginning of a job and the remainder at it's finish.

like when i ordered the boomkicker.

i had just finished a major job. a lady wanted to, basically, turn half of her back yard into a patio. all 2' X 1' X 2" pavers with a brick boarder. lots of angles so lots of brick and paver cuts to make it work out. grading and leveling in preparation. a boat load of dirt to move. spreading and leveling a bed of fine stone for under the patio. 19 tons of it. it was 17 pallets of pavers and i don't know how many bricks. she had them, already. also had to do a smaller patio up front. 

it was a really big job. i don't have a bobcat or anything. i hired two laborers to help me.

it took almost two weeks to complete. it was a pretty lucrative job, all things considered. i charged a bit more than usual, although still at a bargain rate, because of the skill level and difficulty of the job. it turned out killer, by the way. i actually took pics when i was done.

at the same time, i was helping a friend on a duct job, at night. that was a few days. good pay with that, too.

so, when i got done using the income for the absolute necessities, i had a little left over. i saw the sale on the boomkicker, weighed that against new boots, and went with it.

the way i see it, buying stuff you will need when it's at a discount price is an investment.

if i know i am going to need some stainless bar stock for a future project, i don't wait til the day i need it to buy it, if i see it on sale a month before i really need it.

i don't know. that's just my way of thinking.

so, that's how the money is flowing. now that my mom is stabilizing, i have been searching for a steady, official job. hopefully one paying close to what i used to make, before the economy went to pot. but, that's been slim pickings. so, i'm still freelancing it.

anyway, there isn't a ton of money coming it, but it's enough for now. it's not steady but it's on a regular basis. sometimes i can come up with extra. sometimes i am scraping to barrel. it's far better than it was right after the economy went under. there was a time i was selling my blood plasma for $25 twice a week to help me get by. never do that, by the way. i don't care what they say. you get to a point where you are always low on blood plasma and you just don't feel good.

so, i juggle bills. i put out the fires first and deal with the rest as i can. if something comes up, i yank the needed funds and let everything else ride until the next money comes in. sometimes i end up with a bit extra and i pay bills and stuff off, in advance. it helps with the stress to get a bll off your back for a few months.

how does that apply to this?

well...i am looking at what i have to do on the boat and making my plans on how to do it. and, just like with building the bike, i am acquiring the necessary materials as i can. if i can get something that i know i will need, on sale, and i can come up with the money for it, i really don't care that i don't need it, now. i care that buying it now can save me money in the big scheme.

as for the boomkicker over the surveyor. for one thing, the surveyor wasn't on sale and isn't likely to be. i will have and will be using the boomkicker long after a surveyor has become merely a memory. 

i have been in and around boats all of my life. also, part of my job, as the assistantyadayadayada, was quality control. i have a pretty critical eye. i've also done a lot of on line research on surveying a boat. some really good stuff out there. one of the best sites was put out by a surveyor that hoped to save people from wasting money on a survey when they could check out a lot of stuff for themselves and rule out 'bad' boats before they paid for a survey to find out they were bad.

in fact, i've been spending every resting moment researching all the things that are new to my experience, with this boat. some of that has been asking on here and a lot more of it has been searching the web for info of all sorts.

anyhow, i can't see paying a surveyor, now, when i already know a lot of what needs done. if i am going to get a survey, at least i could do it after i have taken care of what i know to be an issue first. give him less big things, i know about, to distract him from any stuff i might have missed, if there is any.

i don't have the money, now. it would be best if i can keep from spending that much money on something like that....if at all possible...at least for now.

i have met a rigger who will inspect my standing rigging and tune it for around $100. that includes going aloft. that sems a better deal than $300 paid to a surveyor who will most likely not go aloft and will not actually help me fix anything. i can have that done, while i am doing all the rest. oh. that reminds me. i need to take pics of the fiddle blocks i am going to use for the vang, to send him so he can see what i've got. can't forget that. he's going to get me straight on all my lines; new halyards, sheets, etc.

anyhow...

so, i am trying to find a way to get insurance without a survey.

if the worst happens and i can't find a company that will insure me without a survey or photos of the entire ( hauled ) boat AND i can't get the marina to wait til i can get said pictures or afford a survey without robbing money from actual repairs....then i will find a way to pull the $300 for a surveyor out of my cornhole. but, i am going to try to avoid that, if at all possible.

so, maybe that explains things a little.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Not sure I saw this mentioned. If you do an insurance survey, it will identify required repairs to effect the insurance. There are some tough stories of over reaching insurance companies. They won't care whether you have the funds to do so immediately, but you won't actually have coverage if you don't. You could find that you waste the money on the survey, if you have to go back and get a non-survey required policy anyway. It may be cheaper to have the more expensive policy that doesn't require it for now. Of course, they are costly because they are assuming a serious liability sight unseen. 

Abandon or lien dock boats rarely have paid insurance, so this has already been a problem for your marina. Or did you move?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

oh, outside of the rigging, i would, normally, put the hull first on the list: hauling the boat, scraping and inspecting, bottom paint, through hulls, etc. but it's too cold for some of that. i have to do all of the hauled stuff at once. so, i am working on what i can work on, now. it's better than doing nothing until i can start, properly, at the top of the major priority list. every thing i get done, now, is a step closer to completing the whole.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Not sure I saw this mentioned. If you do an insurance survey, it will identify required repairs to effect the insurance. There are some tough stories of over reaching insurance companies. They won't care whether you have the funds to do so immediately, but you won't actually have coverage if you don't. You could find that you waste the money on the survey, if you have to go back and get a non-survey required policy anyway. It may be cheaper to have the more expensive policy that doesn't require it for now. Of course, they are costly because they are assuming a serious liability sight unseen.
> 
> Abandon or lien dock boats rarely have paid insurance, so this has already been a problem for your marina. Or did you move?


no sir. same marina. they are nice, intrerested in seeing the boat return to useful life. allow me monthly rent, and it's a hurricane hole. all very good reasons to stay.

if i can get them to let me slide for a bit on the insurance, i can get pics of the boat, when i haul it. then Foremost will insure me at a good price with no survey. that's my present goal.

and, no, that hasn't been mentioned. although getting a survey before i have fixed all i know needs fixed is something that i already thought was a waste. why get something tested when you know it will fail? why not wait til you are pretty sure it will pass? you put financial logic behind my thought.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Makes sense that the marina would work with you. At least there is light at the end of the tunnel. 

Another thought occurs to me. You may not have insurance and the marina may waive that requirement for a while, but you do have liability. Right now. Your boat sinks, or causes damage to another, or catches fire or even just breaks free and hits some stuff and lawyers will look to you. Environmental liability is the most scary, as those lawyers are assassins.

You describe your financial situation as having very little in assets to go after. However, an outstanding judgement can really cause grief. Ironically, it would seriously increase liability insurance premiums and auto insurance premiums, believe it or not. 

While you remain exposed, be sure you take the belts and suspenders approach to everything. Double the dock lines, nothing frayed or loose, no fuel or oil or chemicals aboard, don't leave anything plugged in while you're away, etc.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Makes sense that the marina would work with you. At least there is light at the end of the tunnel.
> 
> Another thought occurs to me. You may not have insurance and the marina may waive that requirement for a while, but you do have liability. Right now. Your boat sinks, or causes damage to another, or catches fire or even just breaks free and hits some stuff and lawyers will look to you. Environmental liability is the most scary, as those lawyers are assassins.
> 
> ...


yes. that's true. you have liability for anything connected to you. if you own a bicycle and you park it on top of a steep hill and it ends up falling down the hill and into someone's car, you are responsible for any damage it does. if your dog damages anyone else's property, you are liable. of course, no one has bicycle insurance or dog insurance. but the risk of liability is still there. and, i think your ending advice is good, even if you have insurance. insurance isn't a magic charm. you should always exercise caution. if you actually have to use your insurance, you end up paying higher premiums and if you've had a claim it affects you if you need to get anyting else insured.

anyhow, i'm not planning on going without insurance for an extended period, although i never had insurance for the holiday20. the whole discussion makes me wonder how many people with daysailers have liability on them. never even occurred to me to insure the holiday.

i figure i have around 2 to 3 months tili can haul her and the temp will be ok to paint the bottom. she's gone longer than that with no insurance and she's still sitting peacefully at the dock. it would be bad luck, indeed, if she can't go 3 more months without a catastrophe.


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

captain jack said:


> yes. that's true. you have liability for anything connected to you. if you own a bicycle and you park it on top of a steep hill and it ends up falling down the hill and into someone's car, you are responsible for any damage it does. if your dog damages anyone else's property, you are liable. of course, no one has bicycle insurance or dog insurance.


Nearly everyone with renters or homeowners insurance does have bicycle and dog insurance.

Even some liability coverage for small boats.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Haha sounds like we have some in common.
look -most of the newer and nicer marinas require liability but as you say that requires surveys which for old boats like ares is not worth it.
your options? Find a different marina, anchor out, or poney up the dough. I would NOT ppay for a survey and I would NOT pay for insurance. Not on an old boat worth less than 15k. I WOULD and DO have a gold membership to seatow.

You will have 8 of 10 year lambast you for no insurance but your the one who has to be able to AFFORD it. So dont listen to all these guys about this particular thing bc most of them have not been in our situation and have a problem putting themselves in our situations realistically.
I have ever had insurance on my boat and im texting this as I sit inside it in my wet slip now. The risk is there but in three years I have had no problem and saved thousands. Just tell that marina to kick rocks and anchor right outside it if you want to stick it to em a bit.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

I am a disable vet living on limited income I can't afford insurance but I found a way to pay the c note each year worth it to sleep soundly at night not having the worry of draging anchor and have free showers and WiFi formost agent took pics of me in the water at a public dock no need for below the waterline pics


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

Harborless said:


> Haha sounds like we have some in common.
> look -most of the newer and nicer marinas require liability but as you say that requires surveys which for old boats like ares is not worth it.
> your options? Find a different marina, anchor out, or poney up the dough. I would NOT ppay for a survey and I would NOT pay for insurance. Not on an old boat worth less than 15k. I WOULD and DO have a gold membership to seatow.
> 
> ...


Harborless, I always enjoy your posts but you are dead wrong here. Liability doesn't protect you, it protects me from you. I don't want to have my boat get damaged by someone without 2 cents to their name and either have to file with my insurance, fix the boat at my cost or sue you in small claims court (and never see a picture) because you wanted new sails rather than insurance.

You just posted that you had $15k plus into your boat didn't find the motivation to do the right things and protect others...

And the bit about anchor just off shore of the marina is "bush" league, I bet if your boat sprung a leak and was sinking you'd find their dock quick enough and yell for help....


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

captain jack said:


> ...maybe that doesn't make sense to anyone else, but i grocery shop by what's on sale and, if i find something, on sale, that will keep and i know will i need it, even though i don't now, i'm going to try to buy it while it's at a discount price...the way i see it, buying stuff you will need when it's at a discount price is an investment...if i know i am going to need some stainless bar stock for a future project, i don't wait til the day i need it to buy it, if i see it on sale a month before i really need it...if i can get something that i know i will need, on sale, and i can come up with the money for it, i really don't care that i don't need it, now. i care that buying it now can save me money in the big scheme...nyhow, i can't see paying a surveyor, now, when i already know a lot of what needs done...


Flaw in your logic: Your belief that you will ever "need" a boomkicker.

I think you've fallen hook, line, and sinker for the "sale psychology." You've let them convince you that this is your "last chance to save money" on this item. You would have saved even more money by paying $0 for it.

Look, I don't want to make a big deal out of this. If you want to buy some nice (but unnecessary) toys for your boat, that's fine. But with the financial restrictions that you go on and on about, this boomkicker did not make sense. There's a whole list of things that you're really going to have to buy to make this boat safe, and a boomkicker is not on that list. If you hired a surveyor, there is absolutely no chance that he'd ever say, "this boat needs a boomkicker." But there would be a whole lot of important things that would be on his list.

By the way, if you're looking for things on sale, Amazon has a handheld VHF with built in GPS and DSC on sale for $125. DSC is a very nice safety feature because you can press a "distress" button and it will hail all nearby vessels with a message that includes your exact GPS coordinates (which is why the internal GPS is so nice to have). This is something that can really enhance your safety, especially since you're a non-swimmer. Attach it to yourself, and if you ever fall overboard, you've got a rescue available. It's probably even more important to have it with you on your sailing dinghy.

Amazon.com: Uniden MHS135DSC Handheld Marine Radio: Car Electronics

The price has been pretty volatile, and $125 is the lowest it's been in awhile:

Uniden MHS135DSC Handheld Marine Radio | Amazon price tracker / tracking, Amazon price history charts, Amazon price watches, Amazon price drop alerts | camelcamelcamel.com










Note: I've never used this radio, so I can't say anything about its quality. But I did order one for myself as a backup to my fixed VHF.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

azguy said:


> Harborless, I always enjoy your posts but you are dead wrong here. Liability doesn't protect you, it protects me from you. I don't want to have my boat get damaged by someone without 2 cents to their name and either have to file with my insurance, fix the boat at my cost or sue you in small claims court (and never see a picture) because you wanted new sails rather than insurance.
> 
> You just posted that you had $15k plus into your boat didn't find the motivation to do the right things and protect others...
> 
> And the bit about anchor just off shore of the marina is "bush" league, I bet if your boat sprung a leak and was sinking you'd find their dock quick enough and yell for help....


Well thank you for your esteem first and foremost for my literary abilities however I feel you presume much.

I bought new sails because the ones that came with the boat shredded in 25 knots in the St. Johns- Bacon sails had nothing at the time so I had to get sails to sail the boat.
While I spent piles of money on my boat is was spread out and up until 9 months ago I needed what I bought MUCH more than I needed insurance. Look at my craigslist post- no cd players, tvs, sat, radars, ect ect. No, I bought a crap boat that was unsafe and so had to make it seaworthy and safe. What, Im supposed to pay for a survey and get insurance on a boat with no working batteries, sails, rotten wood, dangerous electrical configurations, no working lights, ect? It was not until 9 months ago the boat met muster.

You presume I was able to AFFORD the insurance which is simply not the case. Most of my boat has been built by secondary parts from places like Sailors Exchange. I could not afford a survey at 9$ a foot before the policy is even considered. I could not afford the Seatow either but I put it on credit which is something I HATE to do BUT I felt it prudent.

The boat has 20k in it but Ill be lucky to get 6 for it. So im not spending thousands to insure a boat worth 6 or less when I still have to pay bills, rent, school tuition, and feed myself not to mention work on and upgrade the boat until recently.

So while we may disagree again you have not been in my situation. It was get insurance or get a solar panel to provide power for my boat since it has no shore power connect. Get a survey or replace the corroded standing rigging and mast.

I took the risk-I had some close calls- I made it out unscathed. 
Perhaps the most responsible thing to do is not buy a boat unless you can afford it- but that's the argument of the haves and us have-nots really are tired of the attitude. In fact- looking at how many have-nots are coming to exist in this country I'd say the haves had better keep their opinions a little closer to the chest less they run into trouble. Just sayin.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> Flaw in your logic: Your belief that you will ever "need" a boomkicker.


never said i need one, per se. of course i don't 'need' one. i could just keep using that little pig tail. then again, i don't need a motor. hundreds of years of motorless sailing vessels show that a motor isn't exactly a need. and i don't need different sails. i could sell the sails i have, along with the winches, and keep that mone for other things. i have sails, from my holiday, i could fit to the boat. a bit less area than the sails this boat is supposed to have but i don't 'need' the extra area. i could sail without. in fact, i didn't 'need' the boat. and, of course, i am taking the thought to the extreme, here, but the thing is, i realize i didn't actually need a boomkicker. the same as i realize i didn't need a 27' cruising sailboat. i could have just kept sailing the boats i have. i wanted these things.

in the end, that's what this whole project is about: getting what i want out of life; not just what i need. when it comes to simple needs, all you need (... is love la lalala la ...) is food to eat, clothes on your back, and shelter.

so, yeah, i wanted the boomkicker. a survey? not a lot of desire there ( or perceived need, outside of seeking insurance to meet the marina requirements).

when it comes down it, you don't need a survey. people have bought and repaired boats without surveys, over the years ( centuries ) that people have sailed. a survey is a luxury. it's a feeling of security because you trust people who are given official status as authorities more than you trust yourself. in a way, getting a survey is like buying insurance. only, it's like insurance that doesn't pay out if something happens.

one thing i think some people are missing, here: i have no problem buying liability insurance. i am prepared to pay the full cost right this second. in fact, i was trying to do just that when it was finally revealed that state farm wanted a survey. i am just not willing, or able, to pay 5 times the insurance costs that i actually need to. compare: $100 or $500. if i go for the higher rate, i might as well set $400 on fire and watch it burn.

i even have found an insurance company that will sign me up for the same $100 rate as most everyone else. the problem, at this point, is not that i have an issue paying for insurance. the problem is i need to haul the boat to get pics of the entire hull so i can get the policy started.... and it's the dead of winter.

why does that matter? well, the marina next to mine has the capability to haul a sailboat. my marina doesn't. still no issue. it's $265 to have it hauled and i get a week to get my work done. still not a problem. i already have all the work i need to do planned out and scheduled for that week. i am sure that i can get it done in 7 days. after all, the god of the christians created and populated a planet in that time....and he didn't even work all 7 days. surely i can do the couple of things i need to do, to the boat, in the same amount of time  so, what's the problem? it's too frigging cold outside to paint anything. and bottom paint is a big part of that once-it's-on-the-hard list.

so, if i spend $265 to haul it, now, i will have to spend another $265 to haul it again when it warms up enough to pay. so, i am hoping to get the marina to give me a bit of leeway. the bat is not moving. it's just tied to the dock. it's not taking on water. it has no fuel or other chemicals in it. nothing to make it burn. it's securely tied. i am installing that automatic bilge pump this week. it's not that big of a risk sitting there...certainly not any more than it was before ( less, actually, because i am working on it and there regularly checking on it ).

that's the sole issue. i'm not trying to get out of paying insurance. i am just trying not to throw my money away, needlessly.

and, although most would not say a survey is money wasted, one man's trash is another man's treasure and visa versa. to me, at least at this point, a survey would be a waste of my money. if i am going to get one, i think it would be better after i have fixed what i know needs fixed. when you are building a house, and you know you have ssues that won't pass code, you don't call the county for inspection before you fix those issues. you get everything to code, to the best of your ability, then you call for inspection.

also, having dealt with inspectors, i know that 'experts' do not catch everything. they often let important stuff slip but hassle builders over absolute BS. i can't help but think surveyors are just as human as inspectors. i also can't help but think i have more of an invested interest in fixing this boat correctly than anyone who is just making a buck by doing a walk through.

but that's irrelevant, now, because i have found insurance that doesn't require a survey. it's just a matter of getting the opportunity to get a few pictures.

perhaps, i can ask what they would charge to lift it out of the water, so i can take some pictures, and then putting it back in. of course, if it came to that, i'd be better to spend the money to haul it twice and get more time, on the hard, to work and inspect.



> By the way, if you're looking for things on sale, Amazon has a handheld VHF with built in GPS and DSC on sale for $125. DSC is a very nice safety feature because you can press a "distress" button and it will hail all nearby vessels with a message that includes your exact GPS coordinates (which is why the internal GPS is so nice to have). This is something that can really enhance your safety, especially since you're a non-swimmer. Attach it to yourself, and if you ever fall overboard, you've got a rescue available. It's probably even more important to have it with you on your sailing dinghy...
> 
> Note: I've never used this radio, so I can't say anything about its quality. But I did order one for myself as a backup to my fixed VHF.


cool. thanks for the info. i will check it out.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Harborless said:


> Most of my boat has been built by secondary parts from places like Sailors Exchange.


wait. Sailors Exchange? i didn't know there was such a place...that is a nugget of golden info. have to check that out. i have no qualms with used.



> Perhaps the most responsible thing to do is not buy a boat unless you can afford it- but that's the argument of the haves and us have-nots really are tired of the attitude.


i quite agree. this attitude is one of the things that keeps younger people from taking up sailing. it's a big part of ''the future of sailing" thread, really. younger people are one of the groups worst hit by our economic problems. although i don't belong to that age group, my money concerns reflect theirs because i am in their economic group. maybe not even as bad as them, really. i have a lot more skills i can market. if not for those skills, i'd have not been working all year.



> In fact- looking at how many have-nots are coming to exist in this country I'd say the haves had better keep their opinions a little closer to the chest less they run into trouble. Just sayin.


not sure i'd put it that way. that's a bit harsh. i think the 'haves' just need to understand the world that the have-nots live in, before they condemn them for trying to do what they can, given their reality, to live their dreams.

but i can see your feelings. it is an emotionally charged issue. no one wants to have someone else tell them they aren't worthy of trying to live their dreams. and that's what it comes down to: someone pondering how stupid it is for someone, who thinks $300 is a lot of money ( like i do ), to even contemplate boat ownership. ( which is a good paraphrase of an actual post in this thread ). there are no constitutional guarantees of success, wealth, or even the ability to afford the necessities of life. there are, however, constitutional guarantees that ALL of us have the right to strive for these things. ( speaking of America, of course. sorry. that's where i live. )

people have to choose the path to these things that it is possible for them to walk. sometimes that means thinking outside of the box. but there is certainly nothing wrong with a person trying.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

jack, I can appreciate your logic but I think you are not making some connections.

You appreciate that you must buy liability insurance, but you apparently think that is sold like milk or eggs. It isn't.

The price of liability insurance is highly variable, and it is always calculated and set based on actuarial data, case by case, like a tailor-made suit for one particular customer.

Now, how is the tailor (the insurer) supposed to fit you up with your custom goods, if you won't let them put a tape measure up your leg?

That's what the survey is. The tailor doesn't want to hear you say "29 inch in seam, 40 inch chest" the tailor (insurer) wants an objective measurement taken by a party they KNOW or have business standards to trust. That's not you.

So if you want an insurer who really doesn't care what they are insuring, keep looking, and you will find one. The home/auto insurance companies often will insure a boat--on top of your existing policies--without a survey. But be warned, that they are not professionals at marine insurance, and there are often problems afterwards. There are all sorts of landmines that can be, and are, buried in insurance policies. Many of them will find a way to deny you coverage that you think you've paid for. 

Professionals demand surveys, it is that simple. (And many of them still find ways to deny coverage, what's new?)

Don't want to pay for a haul? You don't have to. Any sailor, or surveyor, could tell you that all you need is a "lunch haul". That's usually way cheaper. The lift operator hauls your boat out of the water ,leaves it in the sling, and goes out to lunch. Your surveyor has an hour or so to work under the boat, and when the operator comes back, your boat goes back in the water. In-and-out, no jackstands, no moving it around the yard. That's why it is cheaper than a regular haul. Sometimes, they'll let it go overnight that way as well.

You go on a construction site, you say "I don't want to wear a helmet, I don't need one." You're not going to be allowed on the site. That's the way it runs. Same same with the survey. No survey? No insurance, no marina contract. Keep it out on a mooring or a private dock instead. That's the way this business runs, and they do it that way based on experience, for good reason. Even if someone disagrees with them, that's the way they do business.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

hellosailor said:


> Don't want to pay for a haul? You don't have to. Any sailor, or surveyor, could tell you that all you need is a "lunch haul". That's usually way cheaper. The lift operator hauls your boat out of the water ,leaves it in the sling, and goes out to lunch. Your surveyor has an hour or so to work under the boat, and when the operator comes back, your boat goes back in the water. In-and-out, no jackstands, no moving it around the yard. That's why it is cheaper than a regular haul. Sometimes, they'll let it go overnight that way as well.


so, there is such a thing. ok. i was speculating about that in my last post. that's a possible answer. i only need time for a few photos, in order to get insurance with Foremost. thanks.



> You go on a construction site, you say "I don't want to wear a helmet, I don't need one." You're not going to be allowed on the site.


i think you are comparing apples to oranges with that one, though.


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

It's not about "have" and "have not's", it's about you responsibility to protect others from yourself. If you can't afford insurance, you shouldn't have sails, solar panels or anything else.

Much like driving a car or a motorcycle, insurance is a basic barrier to entry that makes others around you have some recourse if you mess up.

I'm shocked both of you feel the way you do  and would innocent people around and their property at risk...


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

captain jack said:


> ...i think you are comparing apples to oranges with that one, though.


...says the person who has never owned an orange.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

azguy said:


> It's not about "have" and "have not's", it's about you responsibility to protect others from yourself. If you can't afford insurance, you shouldn't have sails, solar panels or anything else.
> 
> Much like driving a car or a motorcycle, insurance is a basic barrier to entry that makes others around you have some recourse if you mess up.
> 
> I'm shocked both of you feel the way you do  and would innocent people around and their property at risk...


i never said i had a problem with having to get insurance. i keep saying i have no problem getting insurance but people keep missing it, somehow. that's not even an issue, with me. it's $100 a year. the survey cost was my issue.

admittedly, i do feel insurance is a racket. it's a business that makes it's wealth by gambling. they do everything they can to stack the deck in their favor. then, when the dice turn up snake eyes, they do their best to refuse paying their gambling debts. big insurance is constantly doing all they can to push for restrictive laws that helps them stack the deck, too. however, even though i feel this way about the insurance industry, i accept the requirement to have insurance. i have truck insurance and bike insurance. it's the law so, i comply. i am trying to comply with the need for boat liability, too. that's simply not the issue.

the issue is, i am trying to find away to comply that is not the same as the accepted way. the accepted way being you fork out $300 to have a surveyor look at your $300 boat before you can get insurance. i am looking for a way to avoid that large expenditure and people take issue with that. the thought being that, if you think $300 is a lot of money, you have no business sailing.

personally, i think that if you can find another way to get to the same destination, there is nothing wrong with that. not everyone agrees. some feel you should toe the line regardless. to that, i say," there is what you can do and what you can't do". if i can comply with the insurance requirement without tossing that $300 out the window, first, i will do it. if i can't do it, then i can't. but you don't know what you can do until you try.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> ...says the person who has never owned an orange.


you know, it's funny. i really have never been crazy about oranges. i love those mandarin oranges they give you at chinese restaurants but regular oranges have that membranous sort of structure in them. never liked that. i love apples and bananas, though.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

I disagree with the majorityAs I said Jack, 8 of 10 will lambast you here. Yet I lived a large part of my dream and now am selling the boat to someone who may be more responsible than my irresponible self and buy insurance.
fact is im in the minority on this one and always have been and always will be. Lol a danger to others property.. like the sailors who think chapman is a person or that gps takes you the shortest route on tracks so if you follow blindly you just might run into that island or w.e.
i was responsible in that I improved the boat to make it safe and improved my knowledge and myself to operate it safely. If something happened I would have paid heavy for it so actually not having insurance has made me much MORE careful bc Ive always known if I messed up I was Fkd.
each their own. Do what your wallet allows and skip the noise that is naysayers. They are usually always spot on regarding seamanship but this is not that so I advise you to make a decision that best suits you and if its not what is the majority here, keep it to yourself or face the wrath of most if sailnet. Up to you.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Basically I see two scenarios here:

If the surveyor finds bad thru-hulls, he may well tell insurance company that the boat is un-insurable. There are several things that he could fail you on including propane or alcohol stove system, electrical system, keel bolts, rigging and what not. In this case it might be better to get insurance that will cover basic liability till you get the whole boat in good shape. First priorities will be basic safety stuff like thru-hulls, electrical, rigging as they will cause you to loose your boat. So you might have to pay more for the first 6 months, but will have lower costs once it is in good shape.

The flip side is that the surveyor will give you a punch list of things that need to be done. That way you know what needs to be done for the boat to be safe. He will likely even recommend an order to do them in, so you can minimize the time out of the water. He is literally an expert in boats so he will give recommendations based on what needs to be done to help you with prioritizing things. Normally they will give you an OK to insure, but may give a list of things that may need to be done within a certain amount of time. If it is something critical they may give 30 days to fix, then it must be reinspected for insurance to continue. You will have to pay for the re-inspection as well, but it will not be the same cost as the original inspection. The inspector may give you a break too if you give him some range of time so it can be combined with another survey in the area. 

The thing to keep in mind is that many of the people here have seen the guy who gets a free boat, and starts working on it night and day for a few weeks. Something happens that keeps him away for a few weeks and he never shows up again and it ends up sinking or catching fire, or breaking loose damaging half the harbor. Especially in Florida there are lots of derelict boats with basically homeless people living on them. They give all boaters, especially liveaboards a bad name. I know one boat yard near where I live there is a boat that has been given away or sold at ridiculously low prices at least 4 times, and it still sits in the yard, every year getting worse. It is likely that 8 or 9 out of 10 free boats never get seaworthy again just change hands or are destroyed or sit and rot. That is the reality that you are facing. Nice to have a dream, but if you don't fulfill that dream who will clean up after? 

Now I say get the survey so you can really get a plan together. Honestly he may say this thing is not wort fixing. So you might save a lot of money when he lists what needs to be fixed and replaced before the boat is safe. So a $300 survey could be a lot cheaper than spending thousands on parts trying to fix it up, then to find that the hull is permanently structurally unsafe. It happens, better to find out now. It will also let you better understand what really needs to be done and what you are in for.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

captain jack said:


> so, there is such a thing. ok. i was speculating about that in my last post. that's a possible answer. i only need time for a few photos, in order to get insurance with Foremost. thanks.
> i think you are comparing apples to oranges with that one, though.


I was under the impression that insurance surveys are usually done in the water.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

I got insurance from Progressive for my 1972 Tartan 30 in about 5 minutes online with no inquiry as to my survey or otherwise.


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## cthoops (Apr 30, 2012)

abrahamx said:


> I got insurance from Progressive for my 1972 Tartan 30 in about 5 minutes online with no inquiry as to my survey or otherwise.


Yes, I really don't understand why some people are having trouble getting insurance without a survey when they have older, smaller boats (i.e. not very valuable).

Maybe we got lucky, but we have a 1975 Bristol 24 and we got insurance with a quick call to BoatUS. First boat we've ever owned. No survey required.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

MarkSF said:


> I was under the impression that insurance surveys are usually done in the water.


yes. they usually are. survey= $300. Foremost will insure with no survey but they want pics and those pics have to be of the whole boat, not just sitting in the water.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

cthoops said:


> Yes, I really don't understand why some people are having trouble getting insurance without a survey when they have older, smaller boats (i.e. not very valuable).
> 
> Maybe we got lucky, but we have a 1975 Bristol 24 and we got insurance with a quick call to BoatUS. First boat we've ever owned. No survey required.


i don't know the cut off age but your boat is four years newer than mine. boatsUS required a survey, too.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

abrahamx said:


> I got insurance from Progressive for my 1972 Tartan 30 in about 5 minutes online with no inquiry as to my survey or otherwise.


you are right. progressive didn't want a survey from me, either. but they wanted $500 a year for liability. every other company i checked with was a between $75 and $150 a year. going with progressive would be like paying higher premiums and paying for a survey...every year.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

the survey thing comes down to this:

1) i have extensive construction background ( across most trades ), including quality control/inspection of work.
i have been in and around boats all of my life; wooden boats and fiberglass boats.
i have maintained and modified both wooden and fiberglass boats for the majority of those years.
i have a seriously mechanical background as well as an extensive metal working experience.
i a extremely detailed oriented and research everything as thoroughly as possible before i plot a course and take action. 

i'm not exactly unknowledgeable, incapable, or or unskilled. plus, i am personally ( and financially ) invested.

2) surveyors are just people. they are recognizxed as professionals but that really tells you nothing of their abilities. there are tons of inept professionals that are deemed superior to the layman, simply because they are recognized professionals.

they are basically marine inspectors. having worked extensively with building inspectors i can say for a ceertainty that just being a licensed inspector does not mean anything. two different ispectors will tell you two different things about the same issue, in complete contradiction to each other. they often overlook issues i would not accept to beat a builder up over something totally inconsiquential.

being an inspector or other licensed professional does not guarantee that they will do a better job than an invested layman. and i'm not saying that to down any really good surveyors, out there. i am just pointing out a fact that seems to be ignored. we have all been trained to look at authority figures, experts, and other professionals as being superior to the rest of us pathetic souls, but that doesn't make it true.

3) as far as my ability to inspect the boat, myself. look at it logically. forget the wiring and ( non-existant ) motor, for now.

the hull and deck are made of fiberglass and cored fiberglass construction. is that any different from any other fiberglass boat i have sailed, fixed, maintained, or modified? no.

it's got a fixed keel with a bolted on lead ballast, but that is not that huge a difference. the holiday, for instance, has a lead weighted centerboard. it's a bit more complicated than the full keel and has the additional complication of the trunk. the dinghy started with a daggerboard. i designed a shallow long keel for it, removed the trunk, glassed over the hole and manufactured and glassed on the keel. some differences but, still, fiberglass is fiberglass. when it has issues, it shows the same symptoms. the real difference is the scale.

my other boats have transom hung rudders, but that's not some extremely complicated difference.

the rig isn't any different, really, than on my holiday. however, i have met a rigger and his quote for inspecting the rig, and tuning it, was really reasonable. so, i'm going to hire him to do that. at a third of the cost, he is going aloft ( which a surveyor normally doesn't do ) to inspect my rigging AND he is going to tune it for me. the surveyor isn't going to fix or adjust anything, just look at it. i think the money would be better spent with the rigger. it's money well spent. but that's me.

as far as through hulls, i have evaluated all kinds of materials. it's not really hard, with my background, for me to inspect that kind of thing, which i will do when i haul her. 

that basically leaves me with the electric system. i don't trust that just because you don't know what you have. i'm going to totally rewire the boat. so, nothing useful in a surveyor looking at that.

so, then you have the motor. oh, for now, there isn't one. nothing for a surveyor to look over. unless you count the shaft running through the hull. there is nothing too complicated about that, really. it doesn't matter if it's a shaft passing through a barrier intended to keep a fluid out or to keep a fluid in ( as in shafts in a motor ) the science of sealing a shaft isn't that different.

so, that's my thing. i trust my ability to inspect the vessel and i am having a rigger ispect and tune the rig. i work for free and the rigger is a third of the price of the surveyor and, i think, a lot better use of money.

so, i don't see a survey as beneficial, in comparison to it's high expense, as the rest of you. and, i feel the money would be better spent elsewhere. 

yes, i could have afforded a surveyor if i put all the money i spent, on the boat over the last few weeks, into the surveyor. however, i got a boomkicker, an automatic bilge pump and the supplies to install it, a 'new'used gooseneck ( ebay ) to replace mine because the holes were worn out, and a new jib track car because i was missing one.

all that stuff i got instead of a survey. to me, it was money put to a more useful purpose.

i will be able to get insurance, without a survey, if i can get the marina to give me some time. if they won't, hauling/launching it ( so i can get photo ) appears to be a possible option. if that doesn't work, i may have no choice but to get a survey. that remains to be seen.

i am sure everyone disagrees with my logic. one thing for sure, i am not going to abandon the boat. i am invested. i want this boat and hope to be sailing it before summer. it was suggested that posters might see that as a pending possibility so, i figured i would address that issue.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

You can talk up your own skills, and denigrate professional surveyors, all you want. The fact is, a self-survey is worthless because your opinion of our own boat (and skills) is hopelessly biased, as you have demonstrated in your lengthy message. Insurance companies require surveys to protect themselves from these blind-spots that you (and the rest of us) have.

And don't go ranting about "haves" and "have nots." The vast majority of people on this message board do virtually all their own work on their boats, and take great pride in it. Those who know what they are talking about also realize the value of having a good, impartial surveyor, check things over. It is money well spent, and could save you a lot of wasted money down the road.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Harborless said:


> ...Lol a danger to others property.. like the sailors who think chapman is a person...


You do realize that Charles Chapman was a real person. One of the founders of the Power Squadron. Died in 1976. My grandfather's middle name came from one of his relatives, and that middle name was passed down to me.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> You can talk up your own skills, and denigrate professional surveyors, all you want. The fact is, a self-survey is worthless because your opinion of our own boat (and skills) is hopelessly biased, as you have demonstrated in your lengthy message. Insurance companies require surveys to protect themselves from these blind-spots that you (and the rest of us) have.
> 
> And don't go ranting about "haves" and "have nots." The vast majority of people on this message board do virtually all their own work on their boats, and take great pride in it. Those who know what they are talking about also realize the value of having a good, impartial surveyor, check things over. It is money well spent, and could save you a lot of wasted money down the road.


i'm not trying to denigrate professional surveyors. if suggesting that they aren't any more perfect than professional inspectors, or any other person, is denigrating to them, then i would have to assume they possess god status. humans are flawed. i was just establishing that fact. some posters seem to view surveyors in a mystical light of flawlessness.

and i don't doubt that many people find a survey very useful. however, i also don't think it's impossible for someone to do it without a surveyor. does that mean no one needs a surveyor? no. does it mean a surveyor is useless? no. not saying that. i am saying, at least until i fix what i know is wrong, i don't see that expendature as being necessary.

and if kowing what i can do is 'talking myself up', so be it. i'm not going to exibit false modesty and act like i am incapable. people want to keep telling me i can't do it...that it's impossible for a layman to do without a surveyor. by giving my background i am only explaining that i have the skills to do this kind of thing.

it's like the ads on TV where they imply no one can possibly change their car oil without ruining the car or stupidly tracking oil all over the white carpet in the house. they are saying only a professional can change car oil. average people can't. while some people shouldn't even touch a wrench, the thought that no one should even attempt it...that only a professional is capable of doing it...is absolutely ridiculous.

i also understand why insurance agencies ask for a survey. that's not the point. the point is i need insurance and have been looking for a company that doesn't require a survey. what's so evil about that? nothing. except it seems to offend a number of people.

my issue about the haves and have nots has nothing to do with insurance companies, or surveyors, and everything to do with people who go around implying ( or out and out stating ) that anyone, who doesn't think $300 is pocket change, has no right even contemplating boat ownership.

i'm not sure why, anytime someone is looking to find a less expensive way to have a sailboat on the water, someone has to say something like that. is it so offending that someone might try to find a different way to do something, a way to save money, that someone has to say they have no business owning a boat? i don't get it.

that's the point.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Too bad you didn't negotiate a quick haul to take the bottom pics in the slings when you offered to buy her. That's a lesson learned.

On the other hand, it is in the marinas interest to see that you have insurance as well. Otherwise, their policy becomes primary. In fact, their carrier may be the one that requires all tenants carry their own as primary. That would logically lower premiums for the marina and lower risk for their carrier. 

One would think there would be something could be worked out where the marina would haul her up in the slings for reduced or no cost to snap a pic or two and drop her right back in. I would consider it in their shoes to be sure you had insurance on a hulk you took off my hands.

On the other hand, a boat owner that is going to have to strategize on every couple hundred dollar expense would be a big red flag. Boats this size eat unexpected hundred dollar bills like piranha, as you've learned just a few weeks into ownership.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Too bad you didn't negotiate a quick haul to take the bottom pics in the slings when you offered to buy her. That's a lesson learned.


yeah. that's for sure. of course, there was no way i'd have known about Foremost insurance and their photo requirement, at that time. next time, though. not there will probably be a next time.



> On the other hand, it is in the marinas interest to see that you have insurance as well. Otherwise, their policy becomes primary. In fact, their carrier may be the one that requires all tenants carry their own as primary. That would logically lower premiums for the marina and lower risk for their carrier.
> 
> One would think there would be something could be worked out where the marina would haul her up in the slings for reduced or no cost to snap a pic or two and drop her right back in. I would consider it in their shoes to be sure you had insurance on a hulk you took off my hands.


i am sure that, if they had the capability to haul a sailboat, they would work with me on that. unfortunately, they don't. the marina next door does. their cost to haul the boat and have it on the hard for a week wasn't bad but, when i spoke to them, they did not have an overly friendly nature. i'm not sure they'd do something like that for the folks at Maurgale, had they been asked.



> On the other hand, a boat owner that is going to have to strategize on every couple hundred dollar expense would be a big red flag. Boats this size eat unexpected hundred dollar bills like piranha, as you've learned just a few weeks into ownership.


everything has costs. however, many costs can be reduced if you are creative and willing to try. lot's of people use coupons to buy groceries or by stuff on sale. i agree, though, without knowing someone's level of dedication, it would be better for a marina's peace of mind if someone has deep pockets.

however, judging from the age and condition of the other boats in the marina, i'm not the only one whose cup runneth not over. if i simply make sure the paint looks good, once i am done fixing this boat, i'll have the nicest looking boat in the marina.

Glen Burnie, where the marina is, is not a high income area. it's not a slum, or something, but it's definately a place where a majority of folks are very...average working class. not a lot of big money CEOs living there.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

hmmmm on the other hand, if i am willing to go through all the effort and difficulty fixing this boat up, with my lack of wealth, there is a good chance i'm not going to just abandon it. so, that's good for the marina. and i have been steadily working at it, so there is evidence, for them, that it's not just going to sit and end up abandoned, again.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

captain jack said:


> i'm not trying to denigrate professional surveyors. if suggesting that they aren't any more perfect than professional inspectors, or any other person, is denigrating to them, then i would have to assume they possess god status. humans are flawed. i was just establishing that fact. some posters seem to view surveyors in a mystical light of flawlessness...


This is just silly. Why is it totally black and white, with no shades of gray? GOD STATUS? FLAWLESS? What the hell does this mean? A professional surveyor who has looked at hundreds or thousands of boats is going to have an awful lot of valuable knowledge. And no matter how much you think you know, he is going to know more than you, and you would benefit from that. Why is it so threatening to you to accept that a guy who does boat inspections for a living is going to know more about boats than you do?

I'm beginning to think that you don't want to hire a surveyor because you're afraid what he might tell you about your boat. You do seem to go into a rant every time someone tells you something that isn't 100% in alignment with your thinking.


captain jack said:


> ...and i don't doubt that many people find a survey very useful. however, i also don't think it's impossible for someone to do it without a surveyor...i'm not going to exibit false modesty and act like i am incapable. people want to keep telling me i can't do it...that it's impossible for a layman to do without a surveyor...


Impossible? Nobody is saying that, you're just trying to mock what we're saying. It won't be impossible without a survey, but you will probably get it done more efficiently (fixing things in the proper order) and with less cost after having a survey. Getting the survey earlier will allow you to prioritize better. You'll also be able to shop around for lower premiums on insurance, so those savings will pay over and over again. The survey will probably pay for itself, which is why so many people get them.



captain jack said:


> ...it's like the ads on TV where they imply no one can possibly change their car oil without ruining the car or stupidly tracking oil all over the white carpet in the house. they are saying only a professional can change car oil. average people can't. while some people shouldn't even touch a wrench, the thought that no one should even attempt it...that only a professional is capable of doing it...is absolutely ridiculous...


Why do you compare our advice to something so ridiculous? Nobody is telling you anything like this. You're acting rather immature. Someone suggests a survey would be a good investment, and you throw a hissy fit claiming that we're calling you incompetent, or playing the class card with "haves" and "have nots."



captain jack said:


> i'm not sure why, anytime someone is looking to find a less expensive way to have a sailboat on the water, someone has to say something like that. is it so offending that someone might try to find a different way to do something, a way to save money, that someone has to say they have no business owning a boat?


Another exaggeration. Nobody that I recall has told you that you have no business owning a boat because of lack of money. I'm beginning to wonder if lack of listening skills is an issue, though. :laugher

I think the major point is that you think you're doing things in a way that will save you money, but some people who have done this before are seeing red flags in your approach that will cost you a lot more money and perhaps suck you dry down the road.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

captain jack said:


> i have nothing personal against a survey, although i'd rather get it after i repair the known issues.* it's a financial thing.* in other words, i can't swing the extra $300 right now.


It is a financial thing to the marina too and they probably can't swing a multi million dollar fire for an uninsured tenant. You having insurance is most likely mandated by the marinas insurance company.. Far too often boats in states of disrepair are responsible for burning down large portions of marinas and causing millions of dollars in damage. Because of this most every marina out there now requires tenants to have insurance.

*If you owned a house with a mortgage you would be required to have insurance by the note holder.

*In most states if you own a car, insurance is mandatory.

*If you want to live in a marina they have every right to demand that you to have insurance.

*If you want insurance an insurance company has every right to make sure what they are insuring is actually somewhat safe and not likely to cause them losses..

*Most of the insurance industry, for marine insurance, uses marine surveyors (usually NAMS or SAMS) as their means of checking on your vessels insurability. Just the way it is, like it or not.

Want to live in the marina? Then you're likely going to need to fix the boat FIRST then get a survey. If your boat will fail a survey now then no need to do one and pay for an expense you know will not get you insurance.

The old chicken egg scenario is at play here..... The flow chart looks like this:

*Fix the boat >get survey>get insurance>provide proof of insurance to marina>live happily ever after in marina*


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

the only survey I would pay for on any boat under 50 feet is an engine survey.
the rest I can easily do myself, especially after rebuilding an entire sailboat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Any boat under 50 ft? Now that's overly confident based in the experience you've shared here. You've seen everything there is to see, every kind of chain plate, mast step, keel, electrical system, etc, etc? I'm not sure you know what you don't know.


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

It so irritates me when people don't play by the rules. When someone says get insurance, I get insurance. When someone says get an inspection, I get an inspection.

Harborless and Captain Jack have decided that boat equipment is more important than protecting the people around them. They make their own priorities and own list of what important to them and use lack of money to skirt the rules when it suits their needs.

Captain Jack, you should have pulled the boat, put it on stands, had a survey, got insurance and then worked on the boat in that order. Either on the hard or in the water, your choice at the point.

You made the conscious decision that a boom kicker and know a bilge pump is a higher priority than a haul out and survey. Plain and simple...

I live in an HOA community, I love it because I don't have to worry about someone deciding their house should be purple or that a camper should be stored in the front yard or they want to put up a basketball hoop in the driveway and bounce a ball until mid-night each night. People know this moving in but we still get the occasional new resident that wants to paint their front door red, or wants the overnight street parking ban changed because all their cars won't fit in the driveway or garage...


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Couple of things…

Your boat burning down the marina is only an (extreme) example of why the marina requires you to have insurance. There are a myriad of other examples of why you need it from your boat electrocuting someone to sinking at the dock, to environmental spills etc., etc. Remember, your insurance policy isn’t really there to protect you. It is there to make sure that I, as a marina neighbor, will be able to fix damages or injuries to me caused by either you or your boat. The marina requires your insurance to protect them so I, as an injured party, don’t go after them as a third party because you can’t or won’t pay for your damages.

The reason for the inspection is to get a DISINTERESSED third party to render an opinion on your vessel. As an owner, you can only offer an interested party’s opinion. You have already said that your boat should be insurable, yet you admit, at a minimum that your electrical system won’t pass an insurance inspection. But, because you are a handy guy and intend to fix this, you should get insurance anyway. 

You only have a couple of options – Find a marina that doesn’t require them to be put on your policy as a third party. Or, find an insurance company that doesn’t require inspections. Or, pay for an inspection, get insurance and enjoy your boat. Or, put your boat on the hard for the next few months or so, correct the deficiencies, splash next spring and have fun then. Either way, it doesn’t bother me (I’m on the west coast), but you might want to ask your marina neighbors what they think about berthing next to a guy with no insurance or the financial means of restitution should you damage someone’s property.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> This is just silly. Why is it totally black and white, with no shades of gray? GOD STATUS? FLAWLESS? What the hell does this mean? A professional surveyor who has looked at hundreds or thousands of boats is going to have an awful lot of valuable knowledge. And no matter how much you think you know, he is going to know more than you, and you would benefit from that. Why is it so threatening to you to accept that a guy who does boat inspections for a living is going to know more about boats than you do?
> 
> I'm beginning to think that you don't want to hire a surveyor because you're afraid what he might tell you about your boat. You do seem to go into a rant every time someone tells you something that isn't 100% in alignment with your thinking.
> 
> ...


ok. first, you should go back through this thread. there was a post that set off this entire ridiculous discussion. that post asked, in a divisive manner, why anyone who thinks $300 is a lot of money would even contemplate owning a free boat. now, that has nothing to do with a survey, but rather my financial situation and it is, despite your protestation, stating i have no business owning a boat because i don't have money. and it's not the first post, like that, i ave received in one of my threads. i post a thread asking opinions or advice on a course of action and the inute i relate that money is an issue, i get a similar statement. look through the free boat thread. it's there too. so, that started my original rant and it also initiated the conversation about the haves and have nots.

also, i am not threatened by a surveyor. i have stated that it is a financial expenditure that i do not see the necessity of, if i can get insurance another way. period. i am fine with folks advising me to get one. advice duly noted.

the discussion's nature changed as soon as i responded to the above mentioned post. each new urge towards a survey, as part of a response to the haves and not haves comments, has been more certain it just can't be done without a surveyor.

so, i was just pointing out that surveyors are humans. they arte not perfect. a survey is not a guarantee there will not be an isue missed. and a person can do this without a survey. i then listed my backgrounbd as reassurance that i have the ablity to do this, which seems to be generally doubted. why i felt the need to justyify my decisions, i have no idea. perhaps it's human nature.

if you take note, my 'rants' are always in response to a post by someone offended by the haves/have nots argument...someone who is asserting that you must have a surveyor or certain doom is guaranteed. i don't care if you disagree with me. i do not respond well to people telling me i can't do something. i have spent a lifetime doing things people assured me i couldn't do. after a while, you get sick of hearing people tell ypu that you can't do stuff.

for the record, this post had nothing to do with haves or have nots. it had nothing to do with the validity of getting a survey. it was not about trying to avoid gettng insurance. this post was about one thing and one thing only; trying to find a way to insure the boat, for a reasonable amount, without expending the extra $300, now. i was looking for ideas; possibly insurance companies that people new didn't require a survey or maybe a surveyor recommendation that someone knew was less expensive.

i am fine with people recommending a survey. i heard the recommendation several times. i acknowledged that suggestion but stated that i was looking to take a different course and that, being fully aware of the issues, i did not feel that the survey was a necessary expense, right now, if i could avoid it.

that should have been enough. advice given. advice heard and acknowledged. but, after the haves/have nots conversation, there has been a repeated attempt, as part of an opposition to the idea that there was a tendency in the saling world towards exclusion on the basis of financial ability, to beat the absolute necessity of a survey into my head.

i made the mistake and allowed myself to be drawn into this stupid discussion. i don't really care if there are people that think anyone without financial reserves has no place owning a boat. there are always people that wish to exclude on a basis of status or wealth. i don't care if no one on this whole bloody planet thinks i have the ability to do this. i have spent a lifetime walking my road with the condemnation of those who had no faith in me. and what always astounds me is that the people who spend their time trying to get me to doubt myself always say they are doing it for my own good.

i am not deaf. advice and warnings given once are enough, and appreciated as having good intent. if you proceed to try to beat your doubts into my head, after i tell you that i have decided a different path, you aren't going to beat me into submitting to your will.

i don't ask people's advice or request information because i am looking for a master to lay my path out for me. i do so, seeking information that i can consider as a part of the process of coming up with my own decision.

now, i thank all of the posters who tried to help me. you guys have given me solid options and ideas. i also thank those who warned caution because they didn't want me to engage the situation blindly. i am not, in any way, trying to lessen the help of these people. but i do not need to be told i MUST take a certain course and i really don't need to be told i have no business even contemplating boat ownership if i don't have a massd of money to draw on.

you are right about one thing, i have been reacting immaturely. i should have resisted the impulse to respond to the post that set this off. that was immature. and i should have ignored all of the rest of the posts, or parts of posts, that kept this silly, off topic discussion going.

until i started posting here, spurred on by that free boat, i had stopped taking part in blogs becauser of this very thing. it doesn't matter what you are posting about, nearly every thread on every blog ends up in a useless, time consuming, off topic debate. if you are going to communicate in blogs, it's hard to keep from being drawn into them.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

azguy said:


> It so irritates me when people don't play by the rules. When someone says get insurance, I get insurance. When someone says get an inspection, I get an inspection.
> 
> Harborless and Captain Jack have decided that boat equipment is more important than protecting the people around them. They make their own priorities and own list of what important to them and use lack of money to skirt the rules when it suits their needs.
> 
> ...


hmmmm yes, comrade, people, living in a supposedly free country, thinking they have some right to decide what to do with and on property, that they supposedly own, is so very annoying.

HOAs are made for people that feel they have a right to dictate to others what they should do and how they should live...and is as far from the principles and ideals of America, and the constitution, as you can get. it's amazing. people sacrificed they fortunes, families, and lives to create a country where government was small and limited; where the people were free. and, what do we do with it? we increase the power of the federal government exponentially, to the point where the original constitution has been reduced to a meaningless piece of paper. we increase the power of the state and local governments, too. and we pay for those governing bodies to rob us of our freedom. but that's not enough. we had to create another level of 'government', one ruled by the nosy busy bodies, so we can have the last bit of our personal choice delegated to us. the founders of this country must me rolling in their graves at amazing RPMs.

the sad part is i know a lot of people that have lost hope for America; that say it's too far gone. but, not me. i'm always an optimist. but every time i read a statement like that, i realize i am fooling myself. so many Americans, a people who supposedly love freedom, want nothing more than to control their fellow man. as long as they control and are not controlled. that's the important thing. take another man's rights because i don't like what he chooses but don't touch mine.

you are glad that a man in your neighborhood can't paint his door red. that's right. it's good to rob him of free will because you are superior, to him, in your judgements. but what if the shoe was on the other foot? what if the balance of power shifted, in your HOA? what if the HOA mandated that you had to have a red door? would you think it so good, then, to have an HOA to tell you what you can't do with your proberty, because they think they have superior taste compared to yours?

by the way, you may not have taken time to actully read what i have actually posted, i am starting to suspect there is a lot of that going around, but a bilge pump is a REQUIREMENT OF THE MARINA which i am supposed to be in COMPLIANCE with. i already stated that. the boat is not taking on water, so i would have waited on that. but i was following the RULES when i got it. but you want to cut on me for getting the bilge pump. is there no winning? i am condemned if i don't toe the line and i am condemned if i do.

hmmm i almost missed it, but you seem to imply i am trying not to get insurance. perhaps you did not notice it but, the whole purpose of this thread was that i was trying to get insurance.

i bet you are appalled by the thought of someone flying the jolly roger for fun, on their boat, too.


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## glassdad (Feb 21, 2009)

I am going to come out and say what a lot of people on this board are thinking. You cant afford this boat. You NEED liability insurance. If your boat sinks or leaks, the environmental cost is high. You may think it cant happen to you. You are wrong. The cost of insurance for you, is the insurance cost and either a quick haul or a survey. You can't separate them. If your boat breaks loose and hits my boat, YOU are responsible, not your $500 boat. You will be on the hook for any damage your boat does.

Take care


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

glassdad said:


> I am going to come out and say what a lot of people on this board are thinking. You cant afford this boat. You NEED liability insurance. If your boat sinks or leaks, the environmental cost is high. You may think it cant happen to you. You are wrong. The cost of insurance for you, is the insurance cost and either a quick haul or a survey. You can't separate them. If your boat breaks loose and hits my boat, YOU are responsible, not your $500 boat. You will be on the hook for any damage your boat does.
> 
> Take care


man. you guys are killing me. has anyone read this thread?

I AM NOT LOOKING TO AVOID GETTING INSURANCE. the whole purpose of this entire thread is that i was looking TO GET INSURANCE.

WTF

in case anyone is just coming to this tread and would actually like to know what is going on:

i posted this thread looking for insurance or survey information. i had been looking for insurance and everyone wanyed a survey first, except progressive. progressive, however, was seriously expensive.

so, i posted hoping someone might be able to recommend a carrier that wouldn't require a survey, that wasn't outrageously priced, or recommend a way to find a less expensive survey.

so, i was looking to get insurance and save a little money. terrible of me, i know.

one poster recommended Foremost insurance. i tried them. bingo. just what i was looking for. good price and no survey. the one issue was they needed a few photos of the boat, hauled so they could see the whole thing.

not a terrible requirement but not a timely one. the boat is in the water and it's too cold to do the stuff i need to do when i do haul it, so i stated that i was going to see if the owners on the marina would let me slide, on the insurance, til it was warm enough to do what i need to do while it's on the hard.

well, i don't think that's a terrible thought, either. the boat has been there for years. first, while the PO was living in it, and for the last couple of years it's floated there, abandoned. it has no motor. no oil. no gas. it's just a fiberglass boat tied to the dock. it's sat like that all this time and nothing has occurred. it's probably a safe risk that it can sit for another two months without destroying the place. it's got 6 bow/stern lines, all in good condition. the chance that it is going to break away is pretty slender. and it hasn't taken on any water all of these years.

but that's not the point. if i explain the situation to the marina owners and they are cool to give me this leeway, what is so terrible about that? nothing, that i can see.

then, i pondered if it might not be possible for the boat to be hauled out, photos taken while on the lift, and put back in, for less cost than a full haul out. i figured, if it is, i could get the photos now and haul it for work when the weather permits. and one poster said that that is something that is possible.

so, i was going to see if they can work with me and if not see if i can have it temporarily hauled. end of the actual pertinent discussion. all the rest is useless BS.

notice that there is one common theme throughout: i am trying to get it insured. but somehow, i have become public enemy number one. despite the fact i keep saying i am not trying to avoid buying insurance, i keep getting bashed for trying to have a boat without buying insurance. i can only suppose no one is bothering to read any of my posts...or, perhaps, they are only reading the parts of my posts that they want to read. idk.

but, you guys can keep debating the evils of not 'following the rules' ( who makes the rules, i wonder, and who made him god? )and bashing me for something i am not even trying to do. you can condemn me for the crime of not being afluent, yet still thinking i should be able to sail, all you want. knock yourselves out. i'm done with this thread. it stopped yielding useful information a good while back. i have more useful things to do with my time, like getting this boat ready to sail and pulling fuzz out of my belly button.

PS it's a $300 boat, not a $500 boat.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Jack, what you are really complaining about is paying more for insurance because your boat is in a higher risk category. You want to pay the lower premium of a lower risk boat, but applied to your higher risk boat. The surveys are a way of proving your boat meets a minimum standard and you are worthy of a lower risk category. If you want lower payments, pass an insurance survey and get the lower rate. Pretty simple (“even a caveman can do it” or so the ads tell me.) The flaw in your financial analysis is the survey costs are amortized over multiple years. So pass the survey and over time, you will have lower amortized payments (you are thinking of keeping the boat more than a year?). Let me know how your discussions go with the marina operator assuming all the risks for your boat. I might want to try that tact myself. I’ve been in the same marina for over fifteen years without a claim or complaint. Perhaps my marina will waive the insurance requirement for me too?


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## Maine_bill (Jan 20, 2014)

Just my two cents... I see that you wanted to use "Foremost Insurance"
Just saying: 
Foremost Reviews | InsuranceUSA.com

Foremost Insurance Customer Reviews and Ratings | FreeAdvice.com

I hope I'm not "breaking" any rules by posting review links.... These links can be used to review many companies ... I note than NONE of the reviews are good when it comes to insurance companies


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

This survey cost is just a step in the cost of ownership. If you really can't afford this $300, then put your time (and some money if necessary) into terminating any legal responsibility for this vessel and move on in life. There's doubtlessly another dozen or two $300+ expenditures required to get the boat into safe operable mode. If you can't handle this one, how will you deal with the lengthy list of follow-on costs? Quit while your hole in the water is still rather small...


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Maine_bill said:


> Just my two cents... I see that you wanted to use "Foremost Insurance"
> Just saying:
> Foremost Reviews | InsuranceUSA.com
> 
> ...


My family has had vessels insured thru formost for over fifty years my dad sold his Ericson in Texas then a couple days later the mast fell off the boat it was found to be caused by a lightening strike that happened before my folks purchased the boat formost covered the total cost even though my folks had sold the vessel a week before the incident happened.
Also I read through the links you provided and there were only two posts for formost marine insurance one was good review and the other was stated as bad however the reason for them denying was an exclusion on the policy that the boat owner knew of and didn't change when he got the policy.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Maine_bill said:


> Just my two cents... I see that you wanted to use "Foremost Insurance"
> Just saying:
> Foremost Reviews | InsuranceUSA.com
> 
> ...


thanks for the links. i will check them out. i haven't hauled the bat, yet, so i haven't been able to get the pics they require to be able to get insurance.

i would say that none of the reviews of insurance companies are good because insurance is a scam. no matter how good a thing it was, at one time, it's a scam, now. you pay your monthly fees for years without a claim and, when you actually need them, they do everything in their power to avoid fulfilling the duty you have been paying them for. but, you have to have it....so, it's a legally protected scam.  there will be many others who disagree but i speak from a lot of experience with a bunch of companies. say what you will, you will never convince me there is any such thing as a good. honest, depenable insurance company.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sailingfool said:


> This survey cost is just a step in the cost of ownership. If you really can't afford this $300, then put your time (and some money if necessary) into terminating any legal responsibility for this vessel and move on in life. There's doubtlessly another dozen or two $300+ expenditures required to get the boat into safe operable mode. If you can't handle this one, how will you deal with the lengthy list of follow-on costs? Quit while your hole in the water is still rather small...


an oft repeated sentiment which i have already addressed. needful expenses are one thing. but it has not been sufficiently evident, to me, that a survey is absolutely needful....at least, not at this point. it's a matter of prioritizing your expenditures. everyone has their own priorities. if i can get insurance without a survey, a survey is not needful....at least, not needful, at present. perhaps, when i am done with all the things i know need done, i may desire to get a survey just to have a second pair of eyes go over the boat. perhaps i won't. one thing for sure, there is enough money a need to spend to get her sailing, right now. if something like a survey can wait, or be removed from the list completely, that's cool by me.

some folks were so upset that i would have the audacity to not place a survey at the top of the priority list, and became so....ummmm.....impassioned in expressing their angst that i actually stopped responding to this thread. i was, after all, only looking for information of insurers that didn't insist on a survey or a cheaper surveyer. i wasn't looking to have the high priets of how-it's-supposed-to-be-done damn me me for my sinful thoughts. apparently, if you try to find a slightly different path that the majority take ( even if such a path exists and is lawful ), it makes you an evil person who threatens the very foundatins of society. who knew, right? 

in fact, after some of the responses i got to this thread and having seen how people in other blogs look on having a motor with something akin to religious fervor, i it was with some trepidation that i mentioned my thoughts about running motorless, on sailnet. i was sure i would be cast out as a heretic, doomed to disaster and a watery grave. i was surprised, however, to find that surveys are a much bigger area of taboo, here, than sailing motorless.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

newhaul said:


> My family has had vessels insured thru formost for over fifty years my dad sold his Ericson in Texas then a couple days later the mast fell off the boat it was found to be caused by a lightening strike that happened before my folks purchased the boat formost covered the total cost even though my folks had sold the vessel a week before the incident happened.
> Also I read through the links you provided and there were only two posts for formost marine insurance one was good review and the other was stated as bad however the reason for them denying was an exclusion on the policy that the boat owner knew of and didn't change when he got the policy.


well, there's a good testimonial for foremost


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

captain jack said:


> ......you will never convince me there is any such thing as a good. honest, depenable insurance company.


I'm not going to try to convince you, but I can tell you've never insured anything with Chubb. They're built on the reputation that they pay claims and take care of everything. Their premiums can be 50% or more higher than anyone else, but you get no hassles, no cost cutting.

When you save 15% in 15 minutes, you simply get what you pay for.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm not going to try to convince you, but I can tell you've never insured anything with Chubb. They're built on the reputation that they pay claims and take care of everything. Their premiums can be 50% or more higher than anyone else, but you get no hassles, no cost cutting.
> 
> When you save 15% in 15 minutes, you simply get what you pay for.


can't say as i have ever even heard of Chubb. not trying to spend more than i need but i will look them up


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## shananchie (Jan 29, 2014)

Try Progressive. They're solid, reasonably priced and don't require a survey.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

shananchie said:


> Try Progressive. They're solid, reasonably priced and don't require a survey.


i am with them for my motorcycle. i tried them first. they do require a survey on a boat as old as mine. they are great for motorcycle insurance. but they were noticably higher than everyone else for boat insurance.


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## shananchie (Jan 29, 2014)

Funny. In Florida, where I live, Progressive is by far the cheapest. They insured my 1974 Bristol survey without a survey and previously did the same on a 1974 C&C 25.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

shananchie said:


> Funny. In Florida, where I live, Progressive is by far the cheapest. They insured my 1974 Bristol survey without a survey and previously did the same on a 1974 C&C 25.


believe me, i was surprised. i actually got two quotes from them, one a few weeks after the other, to make sure an error had not been made. i figured, cheap on bikes would mean cheap on boats. i didn't turn out that way.


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## tsell (Dec 9, 2012)

Captain Jack, I would suggest that you go back and re- read the posts before you continue your rant about how everyone is against you. We all support the dream and want everyone to be able to experience the joy sailing brings. However, in one of your posts you stated that you could not afford 300 dollars right now. That raises a red flag for the viability of your plan. A boat costs lots of money. First you buy what you think you need, then triple that when you dig into the repairs. 
I bought a boat for 13 dollars, one year later my total expenditure was 7000 without a survey.My insurance was liability only for $100/ year. The other costs were required repairs and fees to the marina. 
If you want to sail cheaply, buy a trailer sailor, no marina fees necessary, and have fun. And please insure it in case you run into me.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

C-jack, not sure Cubb has marine coverage, but they might. I was simply reacting to your statement that none of them pay and they're all crooks.

Let's face it, insurance is a game of statistics. Generally, the same stats apply to every insurance company. So, how do you expect the cheapest premium to make money? They either have to reduced the things they cover, or reduce payment on claims. 

When you find a lower premium, there is nothing for nothing.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Formost isn't actually the cheapest I found am fam was cheaper but formost is backed by loyds iirc am fam is self insuerd


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I also find the endless rants against insurance very tiring. I've heard them from many people on this message board, so I am not targeting any one person.

The fact is this: You either purchase insurance, or you are self-insured. If you can't afford the former, then you certainly cannot afford the latter.

But these are the only two choices. Everything you do involves liability, and if you damage someone else's property (or the environment), you will be held accountable. These poor-man stories about how you won't pay a few hundred for a survey and/or a few hundred for a liability policy send a pretty strong signal that if you or your vessel cause some costly damage, you are likely to "cut and run" rather than live up to your obligations. That's why responsible boaters develop a distrust toward the anti-insurance attitude.

Now don't get all snippy about how these "arrogant rich people don't want me to have a boat." Because that's not what this is about at all. Your survey and insurance are going to be a tiny fraction of the money you put into your boat. If you've chosen to buy unnecessary niceties like a boomkicker instead, then your priorities are out of whack.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

tsell said:


> Captain Jack, I would suggest that you go back and re- read the posts before you continue your rant about how everyone is against you. We all support the dream and want everyone to be able to experience the joy sailing brings. However, in one of your posts you stated that you could not afford 300 dollars right now. That raises a red flag for the viability of your plan. A boat costs lots of money. First you buy what you think you need, then triple that when you dig into the repairs.
> I bought a boat for 13 dollars, one year later my total expenditure was 7000 without a survey.My insurance was liability only for $100/ year. The other costs were required repairs and fees to the marina.
> If you want to sail cheaply, buy a trailer sailor, no marina fees necessary, and have fun. And please insure it in case you run into me.


i am not going to get into this idiotic argument again. this is exactly why i stopped paying attention to this thread. you have made two statements about what i supposedly said and both of them are wrong. whether you are twisting my words on purpose or you simply didn't bother to read and comprehend what i wrote, i have no idea. but my words were twisted all over the place by certain people.

first, i never said everyone was against me. go back and read that post again. in fact, read every post in this thread and see if you can find one post where i said that. go ahead. i'll wait.

what i said was CERTAIN people were very upset at the idea that i would try to get insurance without getting a survey first. certain implies not all. it implies some. at least, it did where i went to school and learned english.

and i was not lying when i said that.

look back through the thread.

certain people implied that it was totally irresponsible not to get a survey first. one dude even went on a tirade about how he hated people who don't 'follow the rules' and went on this binge about how he is glad his community tells everyone what they can and can not do on their own property because it's wrong for people to think they have a right to choose what to do on their own land.

despite the fact that the entire purpose for this thread was for me to gain info to help me get insured, i was told how evil i was because....of all things....i was trying to go uninsured.

now, secondly, i never said i couldn't come up with 300 bucks to put into getting the boat on the water. you aren't the only one to act as if i said that, either...and i explained over and over that, it's not that i can't come up with 300 bucks, it's that 300 bucks is a lot to spend on something i don't, personally, feel is a necessity, when i have a lot of other things to do to the boat. that's what i said. over and over. but certain people didn't seem to get that point and, i suppose, since you restated the 'fact' that i couldn't come up with 300 bucks to spend on the boat, i assume there are still certain people that don't understand what i wrote.

it's just like the 'fact' that i don't see the necessity to get the boat surveyed, at least not at this point. while explaining my point, i noted that, like any inspector i have dealt with on any jobsite i have worked at, surveyors aren't infallible. i noted this because i am confident that i can handle this. however, certain parties seemed to take this as me saying all surveyors were idiots. i never said or implied that, but my words were twisted to mean that.

if you look at the original post, i never asked anyone to judge my intentions. i asked for two simple pieces of information, if anyone had the info and the inclination to share it. i asked if anyone knew of an insurance company that did not require a survey. that was the primary question. and, i asked if anyone knew of a discount surveyor. that was secondary since i doubted there was one.

despite the fact that you claimed i said everyone was against me, i received a good number of helpful suggestions ( one that proved to be just what i needed ). i thanked all of those people and noted their helpfulness several times during this thread.

a few of those people said they still would recommend a survey, but were freely willing to give me info to help me with my goal. i acknowledged that advice. as with any free adult human, i listen to people's advice but i reserved the right to decide my course of action for myself. i still do.

the problem is, i made the mistake of trying to explain myself to those who were agitated by that decision. that got my words twisted and just made the situation worse. there are certain people who will twist what you say into whatever helps them demonize you. trying to rationally explain yourself to them, in an attept to relieve their portrayal of you, is simply pandering to the game. not doing it anymore,

i have found an insurance company. i don't need more advoice on this matter, really. the only reason i began responding to this thread again is that i noted there were some people making posts with the intent of actually helping me with the questions i posed. i felt it only decent to acknowledge there helpful intentions. no good deed goes unpunished.

again, i thank those who actually wished to help and posted in an attempt to help me find an insurer to meet my needs.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> C-jack, not sure Cubb has marine coverage, but they might. I was simply reacting to your statement that none of them pay and they're all crooks.
> 
> Let's face it, insurance is a game of statistics. Generally, the same stats apply to every insurance company. So, how do you expect the cheapest premium to make money? They either have to reduced the things they cover, or reduce payment on claims.
> 
> When you find a lower premium, there is nothing for nothing.


oh. ok. honestly, sir. i have that opinion from personal experience. i have been screwed over several times by insurance companies....and not el cheapo fly by night ones, either. also, when i worked at the bike shop, one of my tasks was to deal with insurance companies. i saw so many customers get screwed over by their insurers. everyone is always shocked when it happens to them.

so, my opinion of the insurance industry is, perhaps, a bit jaded from my experiences.

if there is a good company out there, i think that's awesome. i haven't dealt with one, yet.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

newhaul said:


> Formost isn't actually the cheapest I found am fam was cheaper but formost is backed by loyds iirc am fam is self insuerd


well, foremost meets my needs, as far as a survey is concerned, and they are competative in price. i don't need rock bottom.

funny. never heard of am fam either. i suppose that's short for American Family?

might be worth checking them out, i suppose. thanks.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> I also find the endless rants against insurance very tiring. I've heard them from many people on this message board, so I am not targeting any one person.
> 
> The fact is this: You either purchase insurance, or you are self-insured. If you can't afford the former, then you certainly cannot afford the latter.
> 
> ...


insurance is a necessity. i'm not trying to get out of it. however, i don't have to have a good opinion of insurance companies if my experiences in life have shown me they are not to be trusted. i pay my taxes. doesn't mean i trust my government.

as far as price, i just want a competatively priced policy. why would i go with a company that is quite a bit higher than everyone else? that would be like going to the grocery store and seeing ten steaks, all exactly the same, and deciding to buy the one that is twice the price. i kind of assumed most people shopped with an eye to getting the best value for their money. maybe not. maybe some people like to pay more for the exact same thing. everyone is different, i suppose.

not wanting to pay 300 for a survey, right now, because i do not see it as a necessity says absolutely nothing at all about whether i take responsibility for my own actions or not. all it says is that i don't see the same value in a survey that some others do.

by the way, perhaps the reason you see so many people bashing insurance companies is because so many people have had bad experiences with them.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

i have found a company to meet my needs. thanks to those who suggested companies to try. it's time to shove off.


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## tsell (Dec 9, 2012)

Post #49
" i don't have the money, now. it would be best if i can keep from spending that much money on something like that....if at all possible...at least for now."

Post #99
"This survey cost is just a step in the cost of ownership. If you really can't afford this $300, then put your time (and some money if necessary) into terminating any legal responsibility for this vessel and move on in life. There's doubtlessly another dozen or two $300+ expenditures required to get the boat into safe operable mode. If you can't handle this one, how will you deal with the lengthy list of follow-on costs? Quit while your hole in the water is still rather small...
an oft repeated sentiment which i have already addressed. needful expenses are one thing. but it has not been sufficiently evident, to me, that a survey is absolutely needful....at least, not at this point. it's a matter of prioritizing your expenditures. everyone has their own priorities. if i can get insurance without a survey, a survey is not needful....at least, not needful, at present. perhaps, when 
some folks were so upset that i would have the audacity to not place a survey at the top of the priority list, and became so....ummmm.....impassioned in expressing their angst that i actually stopped responding to this thread. i was, after all, only looking for information of insurers that didn't insist on a survey or a cheaper surveyer. i wasn't looking to have the high priets of how-it's-supposed-to-be-done damn me me for my sinful thoughts. apparently, if you try to find a slightly different path that the majority take ( even if such a path exists and is lawful ), it makes you an evil person who threatens the very foundatins of society. who knew, right? 

in fact, after some of the responses i got to this thread and having seen how people in other blogs look on having a motor with something akin to religious fervor, i it was with some trepidation that i mentioned my thoughts about running motorless, on sailnet. i was sure i would be cast out as a heretic, doomed to disaster and a watery grave. i was surprised, however, to find that surveys are a much bigger area of taboo, here, than sailing motorless."







Sorry for my interpretation of " I don't have the money right now" to mean " not able to afford", and also the interpretation of post # 99 to mean that you feel that many, perhaps not everyone, are trying to talk you out of your dream. 

I have followed a path much like you, although I suspect I am more than a few years further along it. I bought my first boat very cheaply, as I stated before, and even doing all the work myself ended up with a hefty outlay of cash. I too did not want a survey of a boat that I bought for 13 dollars, yet wanted to insure it and protect myself and others. It became clear to me that I had to bite the bullet and get it done, so I ponied up.

My post was not intended to denigrate, but rather to advise. Keeping a boat in a marina is not the most cost effective way to sail. The lowest cost of ownership is the boat you store in your driveway, and insurance will cost whether the boat is there or in a marina. 

The premise of your thread appeared to be asking how to save money by finding inexpensive insurance that did not require a survey. That indicated to me that money is a factor in your decisions about boat ownership. Suggesting a trailer sailor was not an attack, but a suggestion of how to lower the overall cost of boat ownership.

Too bad that you seem to take offense to sincere advice. Please ignore any advice given.

BTW, I used to live in a HOA neighborhood, and the happiest day of my life was the day I moved out.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

tsell said:


> Post #49
> " i don't have the money,* now*. it would be best if i can keep from spending that much money on something like that....if at all possible...*at least for now."*
> 
> Post #99 *[ note: this post was by sailingfool]*
> ...




note the words in bold. not having money right now for an expense that is deemed unnecessary isn't the same as not being able to raise money over time, as you fix your boat. nor does it indicate that a person hopes to fix his boat up for a total sum less than $300. also, i believe the word 'some' does not translate to all.



tsell said:


> Captain Jack,* I would suggest that you go back and re- read the posts before you continue your rant about how everyone is against you. *We all support the dream and want everyone to be able to experience the joy sailing brings. However, in one of your posts you stated that you could not afford 300 dollars right now. That raises a red flag for the viability of your plan. A boat costs lots of money. First you buy what you think you need, then triple that when you dig into the repairs.
> I bought a boat for 13 dollars, one year later my total expenditure was 7000 without a survey.My insurance was liability only for $100/ year. The other costs were required repairs and fees to the marina.
> If you want to sail cheaply, buy a trailer sailor, no marina fees necessary, and have fun. And please insure it in case you run into me.


it wasn't sailing fool's "sincere advice" in post #99 but your, above, bold underlined statement, which came after that reply, that initiated my aggitation. and, i will be honest, that statement colored my view of the rest of your post so i didn't actually see it as being a bit of "sincere advice". it started off sounding like an attack.

i noticed you had edited my reply to sailingfool in such a way that it appeared that i was blasting sailingfool for his advice. i am sure this is an accidental coincidence. i restored my response so that it can be seen how i actually responded to his suggestion. notice, i explained my thoughts about the matter ( underlined above ), in answer to his post, in a friendly way. it was an honest, reasonable, response to his suggestion.

the part about some posters being upset by my intentions, which your shortened quote made look as if it was aimed at him, was just actually explaining to him, in a conversational manner, what happened earlier in the thread and was not aimed at him at all.



> I too did not want a survey of a boat that I bought for 13 dollars, yet wanted to insure it and protect myself and others. It became clear to me that I had to bite the bullet and get it done, so I ponied up.
> 
> My post was not intended to denigrate, but rather to advise. Keeping a boat in a marina is not the most cost effective way to sail. The lowest cost of ownership is the boat you store in your driveway, and insurance will cost whether the boat is there or in a marina.


this was your actual advice. i chose to quote your advice from the last post rather than quote your original post because, in this quote, you mention your own experience with the survey issue and, if i am to respond to your actual advice, i think it's good to include it.

you mentioned that this is your first boat. that's where our situation actually differs. i already have a 20' trailer sailer and a sailing dinghy . i usually keep the dinghy in the back of the truck. i can go sailing anytime i want without having to pay marina fees. in fact, i will be sailing the dinghy at the inner harbor sunday.

i bought this boat because i want more. i've done the dinghy and day sailer thing for 18 years, now, and i am ready for more.

for one thing, i want to be able to just go to the water and get underway without having to hook the trailer up and tow the boat there and without having to step the mast every time i want to sail. it takes two people to step the mast on my 20'er: me to lift it up and one other person to hook up the jib stay. i want to be able to drive my car ( instead of my truck )... or even my motorcycle...down to the boat and simply set sail, by myself if i want.

but, i also wanted a fixed keel ballasted boat. it's hard to trailer fixed keeled boats. my 20'er is a centerboard boat. although it does sail like a larger cruising boat, it still doesn't have the unltimate stability you get with a fix keel and lead ballast and i really do want that for cruising out in the bay.

and, lastly, i wanted something i could weekend on, vacation on, or even live on. you could put a sleeping bag in the cuddy of my holiday 20 but it's not quite the same. 

i realize there are going to be costs associated with fixing this boat up and i accept that. by the time it's done, i will have spent a lot more than the original cost of the boat. the survey issue is all about perceived necessity and personal priorities.

one other point, you realized the necessity of the survey and were forced to "bite the bullet", that is another area where we differ.

thanks to the posters who gave me suggestions, in answer to my original question, i found a company that does not require a survey. so, i don't have to bite the bullet.

i apologize if i took your single inflamatory sounding statement and ran with it, perhaps a bit harder than i should have. if it hadn't have been for that one sentence, my response would have been a lot different. you said your intention was just to give advice and i will take you for your word. that's the trouble with on-line communication: you can't easily tell the intentions of another and you can't know how others will perceive your words. i learned, the hard way, years ago never to text youre girlfriend anything really important, beyond short messages. it can lead to fights because your words, in a text, can be easily misinterpreted.

in case you are interested, since you brought up trailer sailers, my intention is to keep my trailer sailer until i have had a season with the new boat to see how i like it. if i find that it is what i am looking for ( which i think i will ) i will sell my trailer sailer ( although i am loathe to do it. but i don't need 3 sailboats ). if, on the other hand, i decide it's more expense or trouble than it's worth, i will sell the cal 27 and go back to the trailer sailer world. but, i want to, at least, experience the cruiser world before i resign myself to always being a trailer sailer.


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Hello Captain Jack. Yep, I don't like the $cost of a Haul out of boat in addition to the hassle of going to a "haul out marina" just for Liability ins. If you don't mind, what ins company did you use ?
For me, Boatus finally backed off of wanting a survey for $500,000. liability ins. But, I already used my auto insurer State Farm. 
etcetera, etcetera, so it shall be written , so it shall be done.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sidney777 said:


> Hello Captain Jack. Yep, I don't like the $cost of a Haul out of boat in addition to the hassle of going to a "haul out marina" just for Liability ins. If you don't mind, what ins company did you use ?
> For me, Boatus finally backed off of wanting a survey for $500,000. liability ins. But, I already used my auto insurer State Farm.
> etcetera, etcetera, so it shall be written , so it shall be done.


morning sir.

state farm has great prices. i am getting ready to switch my bike, car, and truck policies to them. unfortunately, they also need a survey.

how did you get boats US to back off on the survey? was it just because it was previously insured? they were my first choice, originally.

i will be using foremost. i haven't hauled it, yet. i don't mind having to haul her for a photo. i have to haul her to do work on her, anyway, so it's a cost i will be paying either way. kind of two birds with one stone. wereas, a survey was not on my list of planned, necessary costs ( and is costlier than hauling and relaunching).

it would be nice if my marina could haul her out but their machine doesn't have the ability to deal with masts. the haulout marina is the next closest marina. it's within a long stone's throw. not bad, really. i just wish they'd let me take more than a week on the dry. i will have to talk to them about that. i have a good bit to do, on the hard. i will be killing myself trying to get it all done in a week. i'd have to not work that week, really. but, we'll see. i will make it happen however i have to do it.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

sidney777 said:


> Hello Captain Jack. Yep, I don't like the $cost of a Haul out of boat in addition to the hassle of going to a "haul out marina" just for Liability ins. If you don't mind, what ins company did you use ?
> For me, Boatus finally backed off of wanting a survey for $500,000. liability ins. But, I already used my auto insurer State Farm.
> etcetera, etcetera, so it shall be written , so it shall be done.


Here's something to think about state farm actually doesn't insure boats they sub that policy out to formost


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

newhaul said:


> Here's something to think about state farm actually doesn't insure boats they sub that policy out to formost


really? now, that's interesting. might as well go to the actual insurer, right?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

captain jack said:


> morning sir.
> 
> state farm has great prices. i am getting ready to switch my bike, car, and truck policies to them. ........


Yes, they often do. Remember what I told you about low prices. Ask your local auto body places what they think of State Farm. Prices are low because they are tough to get money out of for a claim, at least around here. Nothing for nothing.

I'm aware of this particular issue, because one place I deal with will not take a repair job that is being paid by State Farm.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Yes, they often do. Remember what I told you about low prices. Ask your local auto body places what they think of State Farm. Prices are low because they are tough to get money out of for a claim, at least around here. Nothing for nothing.
> 
> I'm aware of this particular issue, because one place I deal with will not take a repair job that is being paid by State Farm.


yeah. i have heard that.

however, i only get liability. havinng seen so many people pay big money and then, when their bikes were stolen or totalled, have to add considerable personal money just to replace the vehicle that was supposedly being insured ( because that's how insurance works ), i am not willing to throw my money into the bonfire of full coverage.

if i am paying money to have my items insured, once something happens, i feel that insurance should replace those items.

it's the same if you get hit and have to rely on aother person's liability. you did nothing to cause your vehicle, or other property, to be lost to you. if insurance was not involved, the law would demand that the responsible party(s) make right what they messed up. but, insurance gets away, legally, with giving you a replacement value well below what it would cost you to get the same model and year vehicle, in similar condition.

since i only get liability ( it's a legal requirement ), i am not depending on my insurer to take care of my things, should i be at fault. and, since the law is fine for insurance companies to only partially compensate a person for their losses, at another's hand, i am at full legal compliance whomever i choose for liability.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Maybe its different where you are. While you aren't getting collision, typically liability also has comprehensive coverage. Meaning, things like theft or fire or hitting a dear. You may very well still have your car repaired. Nevertheless, one might assume the same scrutiny applies to a liability claim, although, I've not heard of examples.

You are sort of in a logic loop. You're upset that insurance companies don't just pay, but you intentionally buy from the ones that don't just pay (ie the cheapest rates).


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

To Captain Jack about Boatus ins changing their mind about me hauling out for survey and having a required survey. I just told them I was going to shop around because I did not want to pay more for the survey and haul-out than the insurance. (it took boatus @week to change their mind). 1982 sailboat. Jack, good job explaining and defending your life !


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Maybe its different where you are. While you aren't getting collision, typically liability also has comprehensive coverage. Meaning, things like theft or fire or hitting a dear. You may very well still have your car repaired. Nevertheless, one might assume the same scrutiny applies to a liability claim, although, I've not heard of examples.
> 
> You are sort of in a logic loop. You're upset that insurance companies don't just pay, but you intentionally buy from the ones that don't just pay (ie the cheapest rates).


you are absolutely right. i do. but i didn't always. i spent half of my adult life with reputable companies, and the well to do customers at the bike shop weren't using cut rate insurance, either. i on;ly changed after getting burned a few times.

i believe it is different here. liability, in my state, covers damages to the other people's property and personal injury. as far as i know, liability, here, doesn't cover more than that nless you upgrade your policy.

but, you do make a good point: that's car and motorcycle liability. i am not really completely sure what boat liability covers, outside of damages to other people's property and personal injury. that is something i will have to look over, carefully, when i sign up.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sidney777 said:


> To Captain Jack about Boatus ins changing their mind about me hauling out for survey and having a required survey. I just told them I was going to shop around because I did not want to pay more for the survey and haul-out than the insurance. (it took boatus @week to change their mind). 1982 sailboat.


i may very well have to try them again. they were pretty adamant, though, because of the age of my boat. 1971. that's a bit older than yours. they may not budge in my case. their price and reputation is really good. if not, that's cool. i will just follow the course i already plotted.



> Jack, good job explaining and defending your life !


thanks. it was certainly never my intention for this thread to go that way.


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