# Anyone ever buy bigger or new and regret it?



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Been sailing on my Catalina 27 for the last five years and in the process have put in so much money and time into upgrading everything...sails, cushions, rigging, plumbing, electric, etc etc.

But the urge to go bigger and new just keeps tugging on me! I've been contemplating going up to 31-35 feet and new...just because I'm tired of old.

The pros are...
-obviously a nice new boat - no more issues associated with owning and older boat.
-wife and kid may want to join me more often
-a little more substantial than my small 27 in higher winds.


Cons...
-That guilty feeling when you don't want to go out and sail even though you are making large monthly payments on the boat.
-Harder to dock - especially single handed.
-That feeling of sadness when a nice new boat gets dinged up on a piling pulling out of my slip, or if the newfangled electronics crap out for the tenth time, or some other typical boating snafu.

I single hand about 75 percent of the time - mostly long day sails in long island sound- I usually like to get in a good 6 hours if the wind and sun are nice.
Also, the nice thing about an old boat is that if you do break something, well, it's an old boat and no sleep lost.

Anyone here ever move up and wish they didn't?


----------



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Judging by the pros and cons you are listing above, you are obviously a very practical person. A somewhat bigger and (more importantly) higher quality boat can certainly be a good, practical move. There is a time to move up and only you can make that call. I have never regretted buying a higher quality item, within my reasonable budget, of course.


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

This is 'murica: bigger is always better and you ain't living unless you are mortgaged to the hilt. What reasons do you have for not having a brand new 100' yacht?


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Honestly, I do not regret getting a 50'+ cruising boat. It is our home and it is nice having a comfortable place to live. Of course, this could be a completely different conversation if we had to pay slip fees on a boat we used only several times a month, half the year.


----------



## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

weinie said:


> Cons...
> -That guilty feeling when you don't want to go out and sail even though you are making large monthly payments on the boat.


We won't move up in size until we can buy the boat without financing. I've always had a thing against financing luxury items. Wouldn't even consider doing it.


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

caberg said:


> We won't move up in size until we can buy the boat without financing. I've always had a thing against financing luxury items. Wouldn't even consider doing it.


You just factor in the interest as cost of ownership. Plus you can get that second home deduction which offsets it, I believe.

And 4% interest on boat loans is cheap money.


----------



## chrissailorman (Apr 20, 2010)

Just gotta stop racing those big boys.... You have a great boat..... Yes, the lure is strong. I was there too, but then I think about all the extra costs and ask, will I get more satisfaction from my sailing. I only have a 22. Sailed with you guys a few years back. Crewed on a Bavaria 36. Owner moved to New Bern, in the Carolina's. Don't remember his name. For a while I thought about bigger, but then considered...larger truck to haul, not sure if what you're considering is even trailerable. Setup costs, winterizing, yes...docking singlehanded, but you will probably be mooring.
At the bottom of it all the only thing that really matters is your time on the water. Smoother waters in the evening over there. Think I saw you in the last summer series race. I was parked on the beach eating an Italian hero. That was a nice race. My boat is now in Blue Point on the south shore.

Money, convenience, and how much pleasure you get from your current boat will help you make your decision. What will you sail more?


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

chrissailorman said:


> Just gotta stop racing those big boys.... You have a great boat..... Yes, the lure is strong. I was there too, but then I think about all the extra costs and ask, will I get more satisfaction from my sailing. I only have a 22. Sailed with you guys a few years back. Crewed on a Bavaria 36. Owner moved to New Bern, in the Carolina's. Don't remember his name. For a while I thought about bigger, but then considered...larger truck to haul, not sure if what you're considering is even trailerable. Setup costs, winterizing, yes...docking singlehanded, but you will probably be mooring.
> At the bottom of it all the only thing that really matters is your time on the water. Smoother waters in the evening over there. Think I saw you in the last summer series race. I was parked on the beach eating an Italian hero. That was a nice race. My boat is now in Blue Point on the south shore.
> 
> Money, convenience, and how much pleasure you get from your current boat will help you make your decision. What will you sail more?


wasn't me. I don't race my boat. I do do some local thursday nite racing and some weekend races on a j105 though.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

weinie said:


> The pros are...
> -obviously a nice new boat - no more issues associated with owning and older boat.


You would be very surprised how many things require repair on a new boat. Especially warranty items that never work in the first place.



> -wife and kid may want to join me more often


This is a valid reason to stretch your budget. Assuming you know it to be true. Our entire family loves to meet us, stay aboard for the weekend, etc. It does make the expense worthwhile. If anything, the season isn't long enough to accommodate enough. It's a gift.



> -a little more substantial than my small 27 in higher winds.


That's debatable, but probably more due to what you buy, not how long.



> Cons...
> -That guilty feeling when you don't want to go out and sail even though you are making large monthly payments on the boat.


I see you've already received the requisite admonishment for thinking of mortgaging a bigger boat. Everyone's financial situation is different, so I don't believe there is one right answer. I will say that your income stream to pay for that loan has to be rock solid. You should also finance a fairly low percentage, especially on a new hull. Otherwise, depreciation or another recession can put you upsidedown on your loan. If you had to sell it, due to unforeseen circumstances, you might not be able to.



> -Harder to dock - especially single handed.


I wouldn't say the difference you're looking at is all that big.



> -That feeling of sadness when a nice new boat gets dinged up on a piling pulling out of my slip, or if the newfangled electronics crap out for the tenth time, or some other typical boating snafu.


Unavoidable. Consider buying a hull that is lightly used and only 3 - 5 years old. It will be pretty new, not perfect, warranty kinks worked out and someone else took the big depreciation hit.



> Anyone here ever move up and wish they didn't?


New or used, everyone always has a moment they with they didn't.


----------



## goat (Feb 23, 2014)

I just went the other way, from 35' to 27'. If you're single handing now, don't plan for more people to come with you, use or buy the boat that suits you. That being said the 35 footer was no harder to dock or single hand (fin keel, furling main, bowthruster etc,) but my smaller, simpler boat has much less to go wrong and every thing is cheaper.
Change is fun but you'll miss your Catalina. If you're mostly daysailing how about a Catalina 30? A little heavier and you know the brand well.

goat


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

goat said:


> ....If you're single handing now, don't plan for more people to come with you.....


Think about this one......


----------



## chrissailorman (Apr 20, 2010)

weinie said:


> wasn't me. I don't race my boat. I do do some local thursday nite racing and some weekend races on a j105 though.


Ok...must have seen your picture on the MSSA website.... Nevertheless...hanging around in Mt Sinai harbor, I can see where the urge to upsize comes from. Thursday was the last race I watched...about 1-2 weeks ago. Strong northwest wind...


----------



## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Moved from a Pearson 28 to a C&C 35. Can still single-hand her. Bigger winches compensate for bigger loads! No, no regrets!


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

weinie said:


> 35 feet and new..
> 
> The pros are...
> 
> -wife and kid may want to join me more often


If you let HER choose the boat. Let HER choose the options, colours, mattresses, linens, pillows (and don't skimp on them, let her go all out and buy good ones), new saucepans not to old ones from the old boat, if you let her do all that then not only will she sail with you much, much more but the sex will be better.

The difference between an old 27 and a new 35 is.... big.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

So you should have gotten the 42?


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Oh, and the smell of a new boat. 

You know that new car smell? You don't get that on any other car...........


----------



## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Bigger is not always better; but a 27 to a 30 or 32 is a reasonable jump. When you get into the high 30s or 40s, it is a different league in terms of cost, complexity, and difficulty to manage. But anywhere in the mid-30s is probably a small step in expertise, but a huge step in size, speed and comfort.

Docking isn't more difficult (finding a slip may be!)
She'll probably be more stable, drier
Not convinced the family will join you more often...didn't work out for me!

Some of the other factors are very personal and depend on how, where and why you sail. But - even if you have serious money - I'd hesitate about a new boat in that size range. Well, maybe if you have serious money it's okay. But there will be a lot of equipment and extras you'll need to buy to set it up just right. A well-maintained boat a few years off the line would probably have added those extra sails, electronics and other little goodies - and run them in. You'll just need to fine-tune and personalise.


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Yes and No. I wouldn't go so far as to say I've regretted getting a big boat, but with our recent boat purchase, we certainly didn't want a bigger one and we wanted a more maneuverable one.

You see "big" is a bit of a generic term I've found. My Formosa 41 (LOA 50') wasn't too "big" in general, but one thing it was was really difficult to dock. This was a combination of keel profile, having the prop in an aperture, having an undersized engine, and bowsprit/windage issues. 

Instead of "smaller" being on the must-have list for the new boat, we were more specific and wanted "easier to dock." This was achieved with a different keel profile, prop and engine 2x as big, a bow thruster, no bowsprit etc. 

If it's big you fear, try and parse out what about big it is that you fear. For example the easiest boat I've ever had the pleasure of docking was a 67ft motor-yacht with over-sized bow and stern thrusters and micro-commander throttles to the dual engines located right where you step off the boat. I felt comfortable standing off a fuel dock in a very tight spot in 25knots of wind with no stress at all. She was a very very big boat, but less stress to dock than most 30 footers....

MedSailor


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Well

I now have owned the Cal 29 6 years 4 in the water after refit which is a stout boat with a LARGE enclosed head which everybody loves even people i take out for a casual one time day trip 

We got the Cal 29 when everybody came to HATE my much loved J24 due to comfort issues 

I race on and older C&C 35' weekly going back to 2008 which has a head the size of a small broom closet which everybody HATES ,its a freaking great sailing boat but is not comfortable at all for guest sailing

I help keep both boats running and the 35' is MUCH more work for everything even something as simple as bottom paint


----------



## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

*Re: Anyone every buy bigger or new and regret it?*

Yeah, I bought a new Catalina 309 in 2007. Oops. The boat had MANY gel coat cracks on the decks that showed up within the first year. Pretty much everywhere.

Dealer support for any warranty issues was so bad that it became obvious early on that it was better to just fix things myself. He would do a lousy repair, that either didn't fix the problem or made it worse, and then bill Catalina.

The in mast furling on the boat was a joke, but the joke was on me.

Five years down the road, the steering went bad. Thought at first it might need a little lubrication or something. Nope. Turned out that the rudder tube was so poorly aligned with the point on the cockpit floor where it was supposed to go, that the factory had ground the rudder bearings to a new shape to compensate, and allow the rudder post to more or less...mostly less...go where it was supposed to go. The Marelon (sp?) bearings are normally held in place in the rudder tube with some sheet metal screws, but in this case they put the screws in too far and they were scoring the rudder post. One of those jobs where it's obvious someone at the factory decided to do a slap-dash job and get the boat to the dealer...and hope it failed after the warranty is up. Good plan.

The rudder post was so poorly aligned, that using the standard (expensive) bearings would not have cured the problem. Calls to the Catalina plant in Florida revealed that in actuality, the rudder tube was just fine, and they've never had a problem with mis-alignment (would you like to hear about my unicorn ranch on the moon?). I don't really mind being lied to, but if they could have told just a little bit of the truth, maybe they could have actually helped me make a repair.

I managed to make myself an expert on the system pretty quickly, and made an effective repair at considerable expense and aggravation to me. Thanks for NOTHING Catalina.

I'm now sailing a used sailboat, and am experiencing much fewer problems and repairs than I had with my new Catalina.

'Not saying all new boats are bad, or that all Catalinas are bad, but can a new boat be more a of problem than a used boat? Heck yes, and at much greater expense.


----------



## chrissailorman (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Anyone every buy bigger or new and regret it?*



Siamese said:


> Yeah, I bought a new Catalina 309 in 2007. Oops. The boat had MANY gel coat cracks on the decks that showed up within the first year. Pretty much everywhere.
> 
> Dealer support for any warranty issues was so bad that it became obvious early on that it was better to just fix things myself. He would do a lousy repair, that either didn't fix the problem or made it worse, and then bill Catalina.
> 
> ...


Sounds like my Harley, 2006 Dyna...had a main bearing failure. Turns out early runs of this model had cases manufactured without alignment dowels, sold with the notice to have bearings checked in 10,000 miles. Duh...mine failed after 3k. Fortunately they fixed...new cases with dowels on rebuild, at least that's what they said...
I sail a Rhodes, made by small company in N.C. I can actually call and speak with the owner. Even though I bought my boat second handed! And still receive advice and help with a smile.


----------



## chrissailorman (Apr 20, 2010)

And would like to add... For a 22.... It has in mast furling that works pretty well.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

*Re: Anyone every buy bigger or new and regret it?*



Westsailforever said:


> Catalina's = Clorox bottle, no soul. Ask me how I really feel .


Beats being on shore.

.


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

*Re: Anyone every buy bigger or new and regret it?*



Westsailforever said:


> Really I don't like Catalina's. I don't like Frank Butler (owner of Catalina) I don't like Princess stoves (Tom Schultz & my dad) yes I know these guy well. Catalina's = Clorox bottle, no soul. Ask me how I really feel .


Geez, I'm pretty torn about moving on from my catalina to a new boat. Don't know about a soul but my boat has been pretty good to me. She sails fast and points high and gives other boats, even larger ones, a run for their money when properly trimmed.


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Westsailforever said:


> The soul of a boat is all about you and how you love your boat my friend . Sorry I just have bad memories of people associated with Catalina boats .


Comparing catalinas to clorox bottles is not badmouthing people, it's insulting catalina boats.


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Westsailforever said:


> Actually I was bad mouthing people (Butler,Schultz,Miller) these guys are cheats.


why do you say that?


----------



## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

OK, back to the topic.

I also went through your issue, and decided to get a larger boat. The one thing I learned is to really find your what the wife wants. I ended up letting her pick the boat, and I liked what she wanted. Yes, it is a Catalina 400 MKII. Docking is no problem, and yes, I single hand pretty much all the time. Bigger boats are more expensive, so I had to be sure I could affort it, and I bought a 2004 (two years ago), so it was less money than new. It's such a personal decision, each of us makes it by their own needs and desires. Good Luck!


----------



## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

If your family isn't behind a larger purchase, the result could be bitterness and less sailing. Happened with my parents. I used the boat more than my dad.


----------



## southbound (Jun 9, 2013)

weinie said:


> Comparing catalinas to clorox bottles is not badmouthing people, it's insulting catalina boats.


To me it seems like more of an insult to Clorox bottles, but whatever boats your float.


----------



## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

What's the mission?

Day sailing, smallest is best. Most fun, feel the wind, and react. I enjoy sailing club 420's for example...what a blast. 27 is a great size combing some sea worthy ness with a good feel. 

Cruising is a trade between complexity and cost vs comfort. Bigger is definitely more comfortable to live on. The comfort means more systems, can go all the way to gensets, air conditioners, inverters, lots of pumps, power winches, power furling systems, etc. Bigger gets costly fast, storage, dockage, repairs... Bigger at some point gets harder to do yourself. Bigger is faster and more comfortable in a sea way.

After 10 years of owning a 52, we came to regret it when in broke down in Cape Bretton and we were trying to ship hard to get parts thru Canadian customs. It was a furler, it took 2 of us just to lift a sail bag during the repair. I could single hand this boat when everything worked, but not when it didn't. A bow thruster is nice on this size.

IMHO anything in the 30's or low 40's is a good compromise for cruising comfort vs complexity. You can handle a non furling main, no power winches, no thruster, no gen set, etc. It can be reasonably comfortable.

But if I was day sailing only, I'd stay smaller. If I had a big gang staying with me on board I'd go bigger.

What's the mission?


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

southbound said:


> To me it seems like more of an insult to Clorox bottles, but whatever boats your float.


Why do jerks like you and Westsailforever have to slag other people boats?

What does it give you?

What does it give us? Just a diminished respect for you.

Mark


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

capecodda said:


> What's the mission?
> 
> What's the mission?


In all likely hood, probably just day sailing while just fantasizing about cruising.

Isn't that the way it usually turns out anyway?


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I simply cannot wrap my brain around getting a mortgage on a sailboat, unless it was my primary domicile, especially with all of the economic uncertainty these days.

Ships are meant to have one owner, and one master. My personal commandment is: "The bank shalt not be the owner or master".
There are so many wonderful boats looking for a good home, both older and newer. Surely you can find one that you can afford to purchase outright.

As far as size-
I started off at 25 ft, then upgraded to 30 ft. Maintenance costs explode exponentially. 

Much more bottom paint, at $235/gallon.
Longer, heavier, more costly running rigging.
Larger, more costly sails.
Larger, longer standing rigging. The price jump in turnbuckles was stunning.
Yard labor costs more, because every thing takes longer due to the increased size.

Ask yourself: Would you rather own a large boat that is poorly maintained, or a slightly smaller boat that is well maintained?

I'm not advising against upgrading, I'm cautioning you against biting off more than you can chew by upgrading too large. On the other hand, an upgrade of only 2 feet can be kind of a waste, depending on the design.

Spousal support can be a wonderful thing, but some spouses aren't very honest about their lack of desire to sail. Get her input, but closely examine how she feels, or you could find yourself sailing "her" boat, while she stays home.

I have more than a few friends who chose boats based on spousal input, and their wives refuse to do more than the occasional day sail. "If only the head was larger" or "If the boat could just get into some of those cozy little coves".

I bought the boat I wanted, and fired my wife. That solution isn't for everyone though.


----------



## Morgan33mike (Oct 16, 2006)

Went through the same problem for over 40 years. If I get a bigger boat the wife and family would join me more often. WRONG!! Owned several boats over the years each getting larger the the last and the only thing that increased were the monies sent to the marina. I enjoyed all of the boats but family participation did not. So finally I purchased a boat which I wanted since childhood ( Herreshoff 12 1/2) costs went down family participation way up and I have the boat that I always wanted. Sometimes good things are in small packages.


----------



## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

We dreamed of a larger boat and finally bought it, a 43' catamaran. What were we thinking! Everything is larger and harder to handle. Of course there was some system installed to handle the loads of the larger items, and these systems always seemed to fail or need endless maintenance. And why do we need 4 queen sized staterooms with 4 heads for a couple? Sure she sailed well and had a great motion but by the time I woke up from the nap I had to take from raising the mainsail we were already at our destination! I'm sure that cat was the perfect boat for someone but for us, smaller less expensive and easier to handle is the ticket.


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

We went from a 32 footer to a 42 footer. If I had to do it again, I think I would have stayed with the 32 footer, or only gone up a few more feet to 35 or 36 feet.

It's just a lot more work to sail the boat, to dock it, to work on it, everything. It costs more to run it, to dock it, to maintain it. It's nice having more room, and it has a lot more room (it has three staterooms and two heads), but that's it.

It's like when your salary goes up by 100 per cent, but your enjoyment of life only goes up 5 or so per cent. The 42 footer is at least twice as expensive to run and maintain, and twice as hard to sail, as the 32 footer was, but it is not twice as fun. 

I even knocked myself out of one of my favorite sailing locations, because my mast is now too high to go under the fixed bridge necessary to get there.


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I moved from a 39' to a 43'. The only thing I don't like is that I should have gone for 46' boat!

I don't find anything harder to do on the larger boat. It may take a little longer to paint/wax/clean, but that is made up for with being easier to get to other stuff for maintenance (like an easier to get to engine).

Bigger boats rock!


----------



## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Following 9/11 my (much) better half declared that as we had (or at lest she had) been talking about getting a larger boat for at least 10 years; and, that as the event evidenced that life could be foreshortened at any moment without warning, it was time to stop talking. With that, within 4 months we had moved from a 29 foot boat that we'd had for 20+ years to a 42 foot boat that she selected nearly sight unseen (save for internet photos) 1500 miles away. It has proven a great boat in many respects, but the demands and expenses so far outstrip the demands and requirements of our prior boat (a pristine '76 Cal 2-29) that I have often muttered "What the heck were we thinking" while tail over tea kettle in the ship's bowels effecting repairs on days when we would have been sailing the Cal.

One REALLY needs to carefully/thoughtfully evaluate one's actual needs and actual likely (rather than hoped for) use of the boat before making a commitment to "move up". It is lovely to have a yacht that one can sail to nearly anywhere on the planet. One does pay for it, however, and the amount of sailing one does seems to be inversely proportional to the LOA of the yacht.

In consideration of the foregoing, I would council that one should buy the smallest boat that will satisfy one's *actual* needs verses one's imagined wants.

Parenthetically, on the matter of "Clorox Bottles", we have seen them--Catalinas, Beneteaus, et al--in virtually every anchorage we have visited from Cortez Island, to Lahina to Mexico to North Carolina to Martinique et al with home/hailing ports from Florida, to Texas, to California, to Maine, to Isl of Wight, etc., etc. etc. Either they all had amazing strokes of fortune to have survived their passages; or, perhaps, the boats are simply much better than some are willing to admit, eh?

FWIW...


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Why do jerks like you and Westsailforever have to slag other people boats?
> 
> What does it give you?
> 
> ...


I agree. My respect for Hereshoff really dropped with his "frozen snot" comment. Such attitudes imply no advancement is needed. While many of the old boats are beautiful combinations of strength and function, none of them are perfect boats.
Same can be said for many of the newer boats. 
John


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Group9 said:


> It's like when your salary goes up by 100 per cent, but your enjoyment of life only goes up 5 or so per cent.


HA! Not true! My salary went up, and my boat spending went up twice as much, and my enjoyment of life, as a consequence of increased boat spending, went up three threefold!

Perhaps the above only applies if you buy a boat with a sauna. 

MedSailor


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

svHyLyte said:


> One does pay for it, however, and the amount of sailing one does seems to be inversely proportional to the LOA of the yacht.
> 
> ..


Right on. When I got my first monohull, a 25 footer. I would take it out at least once a week, and often two or three times a week (often going out sailing at night after work). It was so easy to sail, I often sailed it out of the slip and back into the slip, without ever cranking the engine.

And, back then, I used to wonder why the people with the biggest and coolest looking sailboats, never seemed to ever take them out.

Now, I fear I have become them.


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

weinie said:


> Been sailing on my Catalina 27 for the last five years and in the process have put in so much money and time into upgrading everything...sails, cushions, rigging, plumbing, electric, etc etc.
> 
> But the urge to go bigger and new just keeps tugging on me! I've been contemplating going up to 31-35 feet and new...just because I'm tired of old.


I don't think you'll have any problems single handing or docking a boat this size.

My personal experience is my wife enjoys being on board MUCH more since we went from a 22 foot Catalina to our 30 Catalina. We're VERY happy we went bigger.

She's also commented on what a huge difference there is in interior volume compared to a friends 27 -- translation she wouldn't stay aboard the 27.

As for new vs. used or finance vs. cash, there's no one right answer. I think you weigh the pros and cons with your wife, go out for a test sail and buy what makes sense for you. New, used, size it's all about what makes the two of you happy.


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

As for bashing Catalina, there are a few on SailNet who get some weird satisfaction bashing other's boats.

My personal experience is that we're on our second Catalina. Support from the company - even though we didn't buy new - has been *exceptional*.

That's not a word I use lightly, but it has been the experience of many other Catalina owners I've spoken with.

Catalina throws a small party for owners every year at the Annapolis show and it's not unusual to meet owners who're on their fourth or fifth Catalina. Many have purchased all those boats new.

I would absolutely recommend Catalina, especially for the kind of coastal cruising you described in your original post.

One other thought. The market for used Catalinas in this size range is pretty strong. If you decide the boat is too big or that you otherwise want to sell you won't have any trouble moving a clean boat.

BTW the used boat market for Catalinas wouldn't be strong if they were as problematic as some trolls would have you believe.

Just two cents from a satisfied owner...


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

JimMcGee said:


> As for bashing Catalina, there are a few on SailNet who get some weird satisfaction bashing other's boats.
> 
> My personal experience is that we're on our second Catalina. Support from the company - even though we didn't buy new - has been *exceptional*.
> 
> ...


I agree. I have a Catalina now and I have no complaints about the way it is designed, or built. It has taken me everywhere I wanted it to (down to the Bahamas and back). If a Chevrolet is all you need, why buy a Mercedes? I'm not planning on sailing around Cape Horn. And, there is no brand of boat that can overcome sheer incompetence of the captain (which seems to be the number one reason boats sink from what I have seen, no matter what brand, style or design).

My only regrets are the size, not the brand.


----------



## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

I am doing both. In a year or two I will be moving up from my 23 to roughly a 28 footer.. at the same time I am planning to purchase another 14 to 15 foot daysailor. The bigger boat is for longer cruises (possibly weeks or months) and the trailer sailor is for just going out on the water for the day. Best of both worlds


----------



## southbound (Jun 9, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Why do jerks like you and Westsailforever have to slag other people boats?
> 
> What does it give you?
> 
> ...


Sorry, the line was just there for the taking. Hey, being between boats at the moment, I wouldn't mind at all having a Cat. But I don't think I'd be tempted to do something like go offshore in it. Based on the few I've been on, the quality of construction and hardware leaves much to be desired. But if one wants to sail coastal and in good weather there may be no point in paying for hardware and build quality that you just don't need. And I haven't been on all models of Catalinas and it may be that what I've seen isn't representative. AND, the value of good customer support can hardly be overemphasized, and if it is as good as was suggested, that's nothing to sneeze at. 
I'm not slagging anyone's boat. I just had some opinions about the builder. And like many opinions, they weren't based on much.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

southbound said:


> ...And like many opinions, they weren't based on much.


...and therefore best kept to yourself.


----------



## i_amcdn (Jul 4, 2012)

weinie said:


> Plus you can get that second home deduction which offsets it, I believe.


IMHO, using forgone taxes to subsidize what are in fact non-essential luxuries is morally wrong.

Deducting interest on your true first roof over your head is one thing. Extending that largess to 2nd, 3rd, etc "homes" is just so wrong especially when those same benefactors then crap on government waste.

Surely there is a better way to dole out subsidies to the boat building industry.

I find it ironic that in the bastion of free enterprise almost every free enterpriser, from oil companies , farmers, boat builders, car builders, airplane builders ....they are all elbowing each other out of the way to be first in line to suck on the giant teat of the government.

Free enterprise my ass.

On the larger boat, I agree with "larger = more comfortable sailing in larger winds". I have turned back home at least 3X this year while watching larger boats carry on.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm a big believer in letting the other guy take that big hit of depreciation on big new stuff - cars, boats, houses etc.

The only things I MUST have new are food & underwear. 

Since you are going up from a Cat 27, there is a whole universe of "bigger & better" out there, mostly currently going begging. You are unlikely to really know what you want for the long term so the next boat will almost certainly be a "waypoint" that will be back on the market before too long. If you are looking at moving up into the 30's, find a nice 5 - 10 year old boat and save yourself 10's of thou$and$. 

When you factor in the finance cost, the difference will be in the vicinity of the ENTIRE price of a very good used boat. Even a volume production new 30' will be into 6 figures while you can find an almost unlimited number of near new condition 35' for mid to high 5 figures.

The first time you leave the dock in a new boat you lose 10%-20% of what you just spent.


----------



## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

i_amcdn said:


> IMHO, using forgone taxes to subsidize what are in fact non-essential luxuries is morally wrong.
> 
> Deducting interest on your true first roof over your head is one thing. Extending that largess to 2nd, 3rd, etc "homes" is just so wrong especially when those same benefactors then crap on government waste.
> 
> ...


Well, you can be "holier than thou" or do something to change the tax code. Until you do that I would advise anyone to play fair within the law and if the ownership meets the requirements to be deductibe....good for us! You go ahead and keep your own purity and see how proud we will be.


----------



## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

southbound said:


> Sorry, the line was just there for the taking. Hey, being between boats at the moment, I wouldn't mind at all having a Cat. But I don't think I'd be tempted to do something like go offshore in it. Based on the few I've been on, the quality of construction and hardware leaves much to be desired. But if one wants to sail coastal and in good weather there may be no point in paying for hardware and build quality that you just don't need. And I haven't been on all models of Catalinas and it may be that what I've seen isn't representative. AND, the value of good customer support can hardly be overemphasized, and if it is as good as was suggested, that's nothing to sneeze at.
> I'm not slagging anyone's boat. I just had some opinions about the builder. And like many opinions, they weren't based on much.


You should probably do some fact checking before you make facts out of very little knowledge. Having owned a new Catalina I have to say that it delivered what I expected, the company took care of ALL warranty issues, and in fact stepped up after warranty in one instance. Frank is somewhat eccentric, but my dealings with him were cordial and he came through. Gerry Douglas is own very nice guy with more boat knowledge than most in the industry.

Recently Catalina has improved their products again. The thought and quality of the products they are putting in their bigger boats has put them at a price disadvantage to their production competition. The boats show very well.

Combine that with the fact that their are something like 20,000 22's, 12,000 30's, and many more than a 1000 of the 32, 34, 36, 38, 40's. Good thing there are so many "uninformed" buyers out there that don't share your knowledge!


----------



## southbound (Jun 9, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> ...and therefore best kept to yourself.


Not one to take your own advice I see.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

i_amcdn said:


> IMHO, using forgone taxes to subsidize what are in fact non-essential luxuries is morally wrong.


There are plenty of government moral issues, taxes aren't one of them. Taxes are financial. Politicians are often immoral, by using tax rhetoric to get votes. Both sides do, your side does, whatever side that is.

As for the boating industry and the mortgage deduction, the question is whether the lift in sales received, from consumers as whole being able to spend more on boats, is keeping an equivalent number of industry jobs and profits that are creating payroll and income taxes to offset it. Of course, if its working well, you more than offset it, but even a flat trade keeps those marginal people employed. I've not seen the math on this one.

It's a simple fact of supply and demand that if you make buying power less expensive, people spend more and prices rise. It can actually push prices and economic activity up too high, create too high prices, unsustainable tax revenue, and more jobs than are sustainable, as we saw in the housing bubble. There's certainly nothing working that excessively in the boating industry. A valid question is whether its working sufficiently, but I would like to see the figures.

Morality has nothing to do with it.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

southbound said:


> I'm not slagging anyone's boat. I just had some opinions about the builder. And like many opinions, they weren't based on much.


So you admit your opinions are worth nothing. So you are a fool who puts foolish opinions on the forum designed to hurt people feelings whist hiding behind some anonymity.

Fortunately, others here too see you for what you are. And I see you for more: an IQ of 1 floating in a sea of your own wank. Go spank your monkey somewhere else.

Mark


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

i_amcdn said:


> IMHO, using forgone taxes to subsidize what are in fact non-essential luxuries is morally wrong.
> 
> Deducting interest on your true first roof over your head is one thing. Extending that largess to 2nd, 3rd, etc "homes" is just so wrong especially when those same benefactors then crap on government waste.
> 
> ...


I agree, its not really a fair deduction (or subsidy). (But, the US tax code is rife with this type of thing, the big reason I support a flat tax or national sales tax, as a replacement. And, the benefits to those who can fund campaigns, pretty much guarantees that my preferences will never come to pass)

But, boat builders are not the ones who defend this deduction every time it comes up, the real estate brokers and developers do (and they are one of the biggest lobbying groups in the country). They are scared to death to let Congress tinker with this deduction at all, even under the guise of just removing boats from it, due to their fear that once Congress got a hold of it, they might just eliminate the second home deduction all together. Boat owners don't have to do anything to keep it, the real estate people will spread money around to defend it for them.


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

i_amcdn said:


> IMHO, using forgone taxes to subsidize what are in fact non-essential luxuries is morally wrong.
> 
> Deducting interest on your true first roof over your head is one thing. Extending that largess to 2nd, 3rd, etc "homes" is just so wrong especially when those same benefactors then crap on government waste.
> 
> ...


Not risk getting my own thread shut down, but my subsidizing over half the population with my hard earned income is morally wrong.


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

weinie said:


> Not risk getting my own thread shut down, but my subsidizing over half the population with my hard earned income is morally wrong.


Without a doubt.


----------



## southbound (Jun 9, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> So you admit your opinions are worth nothing.
> 
> Fortunately, others here too see you for what you are. And I see you for more: an IQ of 1 floating in a sea of your own wank. Go spank your monkey somewhere else.
> Mark


Some opinions are about matters of fact and can therefore be more or less correct or incorrect. For example; "So you admit your opinions are worth nothing." is an opinion about what I said that is simply wrong. Anyone's impressions of particular boats may or may not be worth something to someone else but they are less a matter of fact than of personal feeling/preferences. Such opinions are virtually always formed on small sample sizes relative to what actually exists, and as such may often have limited value. But my opinions about the boats I've been on aren't somehow inherently worth less than anyone else's just because I'm able to grasp (and remark upon) the limitations inherent to opinions themselves. Mine included. Yours too, bucko.

To be honest, I was trying to be magnanimous. But lets just be honest instead. There's not much point in trying to have a rational conversation with someone who is demonstrably incapable of such. And it's difficult to derive much pleasure in correcting the failed rhetoric of 10 year olds--I would maintain that no one older would ever have submitted that second paragraph to a public forum.

On the other hand, you write a pretty good blog. Go figure.


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

i_amcdn said:


> IMHO, using forgone taxes to subsidize what are in fact non-essential luxuries is morally wrong....
> 
> Free enterprise my ass.
> 
> .


Quoted for the pure accuracy of this statement. How did we get off the track so badly in this country? When it comes to investments, and where to put your money, the best rate of return is always going to be politicians.


----------



## H and E (Sep 11, 2011)

> If you let HER choose the boat. Let HER choose the options, colours, mattresses, linens, pillows (and don't skimp on them, let her go all out and buy good ones), new saucepans not to old ones from the old boat, if you let her do all that then not only will she sail with you much, much more but the sex will be better.


I did that. Still sail solo or with friends. Admiral rarely goes.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

southbound said:


> To me it seems like more of an insult to Clorox bottles, but whatever boats your float.





southbound said:


> ...To be honest, I was trying to be magnanimous...


Uh, I don't think so.


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

H and E said:


> I did that. Still sail solo or with friends. Admiral rarely goes.


When my wife first saw my 27 catalina in the slip wedged between several larger boats, the first words out of her mouth were "that's it?"

I should have been on the phone with my lawyer that day!:laugher


----------



## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

35 ft to 41 and loving every minuet of it... went from fin/spade to full and attached. no sweat. lovin my choices, as they were semi planned out for cruising, and i AM. full time.


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

zeehag said:


> 35 ft to 41 and loving every minuet of it... went from fin/spade to full and attached. no sweat. lovin my choices, as they were semi planned out for cruising, and i AM. full time.


Zee, did you ever get all the gremlins worked out with your engine? I was reading of your predicament a while back.


----------



## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

weinie said:


> Zee, did you ever get all the gremlins worked out with your engine? I was reading of your predicament a while back.


gremlins, hell, it was a nice set of erector set buildings run over by a freight train. it is newly rebuilt, entirely and placed in bays, awaiting final fine tuning. mecchanics wife had a seriuous and sudden onset of illness recently. we wait until sheis ok then we go forward. my choice.


----------



## BoxedUp (Nov 22, 2006)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I bought the boat I wanted, and fired my wife. That solution isn't for everyone though.


Which costs less in the long run? 

We currently charter 39'-42' in the BVI but that's to accommodate the whole family on a one week vacation. Will eventually get into something in the low 30' range when I can devote more quality time to boat ownership. The practical side of my personality dictates a slightly used (3-5 year old) boat but the OCD in me may win out and "force" me to buy new. I've also never financed something that I couldn't pay cash for and as long as financing rates are lower than what you can earn on your investments, why would you not finance? I know, boats are not investments but neither are cars. To me, the pleasure factor is huge when considering depreciation.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

weinie said:


> Not risk getting my own thread shut down, but my subsidizing over half the population with my hard earned income is morally wrong.


Well if you are subsidizing over half the population by your self, then I guess you have the money to not worry about going to big! By the way it is the wealthy that get the most out of government subsidy.

Back on track here is a nice discussion that granted is about a big boat (47 foot) but is why many like to say small. Fewer systems, and the ones that are there are simpler. I don't know if he would say that he regrets it, just a good example of the complications of a big boat. His boat has taken him some places I would not want to do in a smaller or lesser boat.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/154946-salts-oil.html

You would not have to worry about an extremely expensive diesel on a smaller boat. Now for me diesel is a must have as i don't want gas on board. I understand that with proper systems, maintenance and vigilant techniques gas can be safe, but for me I want diesel. For a day sailor I would have no issue with gas, but for a live-aboard I think diesel is the way to go. Too much open flame between cooking and heating for my safty comfort for gas on board.


----------



## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

Based on your description of your sailing, if anything I would be looking to downsize rather than upsize. Not only because bigger boats have higher costs, but because they are not as much fun to sail, much like the difference between a sports car and a semi. Smaller boats may be slower but they are more agile and far more fun to sail. Given many variables including the market (Reboot is extensively outfitted for long distance cruising, expenses I would never recover if I sold her) I choose to keep her rather than sell her. But that does not mean I don't think about downsizing, particularly as I get older and handling her in a squall gets harder.

No boat is going to change the opinion of your wife and children if you have them to cruising. Some people like it, some don't. Bigger or smaller does not make much of a difference in my experience. Changing cruising grounds can change their attitude - there is a real appeal to cruising in the Caribbean in February if you live in Minneapolis - St. Paul. Rather than focusing on the size of the boat ask yourself - why do you solo 75% of the time? If you are leaving others ashore ask them outright - why do they not want to come? I doubt you will get an answer that the boat is too small.

I was surprised that a large majority of people who have had "world cruising" as their preferred lifestyle don't even survive the first year after moving aboard.

Summary:

Littler is cheaper, and in MHO, more fun.
A bigger boat will not change the attitude of people you want to go sailing with you, it will just be a bigger boat.

Fair winds and following seas


----------



## southbound (Jun 9, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> Uh, I don't think so.


Uh, I was trying to be magnanimous when I implied that my opinion might not be worth much. It isnt hard to make statements sound silly when you take them out of their original context and apply them to something else.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

svzephyr44 said:


> No boat is going to change the opinion of your wife and children if you have them to cruising. Some people like it, some don't. Bigger or smaller does not make much of a difference in my experience. Changing cruising grounds can change their attitude - there is a real appeal to cruising in the Caribbean in February if you live in Minneapolis - St. Paul. Rather than focusing on the size of the boat ask yourself - why do you solo 75% of the time? If you are leaving others ashore ask them outright - why do they not want to come? I doubt you will get an answer that the boat is too small.
> 
> A bigger boat will not change the attitude of people you want to go sailing with you, it will just be a bigger boat.
> 
> Fair winds and following seas


I would differ with that in regard to women onboard - generally they very much like all the comforts of home when they go sailing. A good big galley, well heated cabin (forced air), easy access to the bunk and hot running water will all contribute mightily to keeping women aboard. Simply put, most women don't like roughing it.

Biggest single attraction you can offer them? An electric head. 

Why do you think they generally prefer powerboats?


----------



## AKscooter (Jan 18, 2009)

See my lack of sense of humor and jest. No one was serious......lighten up, duder


.......Why do jerks like you and Westsailforever have to slag other people boats?

What does it give you?

What does it give us? Just a diminished respect for you.


Mark


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

SloopJonB said:


> I would differ with that in regard to women onboard - generally they very much like all the comforts of home when they go sailing. A good big galley, well heated cabin (forced air), easy access to the bunk and hot running water will all contribute mightily to keeping women aboard. Simply put, most women don't like roughing it.


Hey I like those things also and don't really understand why people think boats need to be setup different based on gender.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> Hey I like those things also and don't really understand why people think boats need to be setup different based on gender.


Oh geeez. Don't stand anywhere near our old friend Sloop. The gang over at HerSailnet forum will be sending someone to kill him in his sleep and they'll kill all witnesses too.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

southbound said:


> Uh, I was trying to be magnanimous when I implied that my opinion might not be worth much. It isnt hard to make statements sound silly when you take them out of their original context and apply them to something else.


We all develop online personalities here, so any messages you post are taken in the context of the personality you've exhibited in your prior posts. So it's not out of context as you claim, it's in the context of the persona you've exhibited in your posts on this thread. From what I've seen so far, "magnanimous" does not come to mind.

Just like in real life, we have bad days and good days, and occasionally post jokes that fall flat, or even post things that we later regret. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in this case.

I will say that, in general, dissing someone else's boat is poor practice here. You might think it's funny, but others won't. Maybe you've noticed in other life experiences that making fun of others, no matter how "funny" it is intended to be, virtually NEVER goes over well. That's especially true of dissing someone's boat on this forum. This is a place where people take their boats seriously, and taking a cheap shot at someone else's boat is as personal as it gets. It is just not funny, so don't even try.

Now if you charter a boat and have complaints about poor maintenance by the charter company, that's fair game. If you buy a boat and have complaints about the PO's shoddy work, that's fair game. But broad-based condemnation, joking, or mockery, of whole categories of boats or boat manufacturers, especially ones that many people here own, is likely to rub people the wrong way. That should be obvious.

I have my own opinions about boat builders, and they're not all positive. And aside from occasionally pointing out small issues (stuff like, "I thought the dinette table was a little flimsy"), I keep those opinions to myself. It's just not good practice to go dissing people's boats, especially on this forum. My advice is don't do it.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Its not sexist. Its evolution.

Females who make a safe and secure home have more babies that live to propagate. Females in an extended family and close social bonds to help raise/educate family will be more successful.

Men who are adventurous and looking for a new hunting ground will be more successful.

A man doesnt really care how he gets to the new promised land.

A woman dragged along into a situation of less safety and comfort does care a damn.

So all those things SlooJonB says, and more, are vitally important if a guy wants to drag the Missus off on some galavanting trip.
If more people work out ways to make cruising feel the woman will be more innately safe, secure and comfortable then they might want to go sailing a bit more.

Before cruising you could stop doing maintenance on the house for a few years, cut off the hot water, put salt in the cold water, cut the AC, cut the heater except for summer, piss off all her friends, get her sacked from her intellectually stimulating job whilst giving her a bucket to piddle in, and digging up her garden and anything else she likes in her life and her house, then cruising on a good, large boat may be a God-send to her!


Mark <---- who has seen many couples break up cruising.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Using evolution as the basis for how you approach women is like using the weather forecast to trim your sails*. Using generalities about genders is silly in this context. We did not evolve to sail small boats across big water. Women are individuals, just like men. Treat your partner as the equal that she is. Together, decide what your boat should be. It's amazing what can happen when you actually work together. 

* line stolen from another thread. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

SloopJonB said:


> I would differ with that in regard to women onboard - generally they very much like all the comforts of home when they go sailing. A good big galley, well heated cabin (forced air), easy access to the bunk and hot running water will all contribute mightily to keeping women aboard. Simply put, most women don't like roughing it....


We all like the comforts of home. I am always amused by pictures of some guy at the helm in foulies with the waves bashing over him - think Robert Redford in _All is Lost._ I can tell you from experience that it gets pretty old pretty quick. There is a reason why most long distance cruisers try to plan their routes and time their trips to go downwind in stable weather.

I will make my point more bluntly. i have been around a lot of cruisers and people with boats. The level of miscommunication between couples is amazing. I think a lot of it is motivated by love (at least the romantic in me sees it as such) but the fact is that husbands and wives aren't telling each other the truth. The number of women who fly home to see the children and grandchildren while the husband moves the boat to the next port is extraordinary high. And believe me, the boats are in the 40 to 50 foot range with every possible bell and whistle for comfort. This phenomenon is not limited to cruisers. When I lived on shore the number of "absent" significant others at the marinas each weekend exceeded 80%.

My comment to the OP therefore was simple - perhaps a bigger boat will reduce the amount of time you are single handing - if that is what you want. But before you expend time and effort to purchase a bigger boat have a frank conversation with your "crew" to find out if it will matter. I had such a conversation years ago with my two now grown sons. Their answer was frank - in a world of the Internet and video games they found sailing boring. Although that was not what I wanted to hear it saved me a lot of missteps and grief.

Fair winds and following seas


----------



## engineer_sailor (Aug 27, 2011)

We looked at at least 100 boats before buying ranging between 25-40 feet. Had one 2 year old and the second child on the way.

Almost bought a 35' in the upper 5 figure range, but ultimately bought our current Catalina 27 for way less. In hindsight I bought the right boat for our needs given our budget. Learned a lot of lessons and future boat wants more cheaply. I can't imagine regretting a bigger boat unless we didn't go big enough to meet our needs.

We noticed a few trends along the way:

27 feet is roughly the minimum size for a diesel inboard, enclosed V-berths, and full heads. Won't find aft cabins. Sub-27 mostly outboards, porti-potties, open or no v-berth. Tight engine access. Ice boxes, two burner stoves, small sinks. No counter space. Always moving something around. Can feel cramped at times after several days with a family of four. Just enough foredeck space for a dinghy. Can still "manhandle" the boat at the dock. Still some "small boat" sailing feel.

Aft cabins start at around 33 feet (glorified quarter berth with doors, see Caliber 33 as an example). 35-40 feet seem to have reasonable aft cabin, nice V-berth, expanded gallies, maybe two heads. Still have to use the main cabin to sleep a third individual (one of two kids of older) or couple. Settees can sleep a full person. Lots of possible tankage extending range. Decent engine and systems access. Larger stove maybe oven, maybe a freezer. Some counter space. Hot water. Maybe davits in the upper end. Feels like a big boat under way

40-45, more spacious overall, extended V-berths, beginning of center cockpit which enlarges the aft cabin to stateroom level. Much larger tankage. Possible to achieve a third enclosed bunk even if tight. Lots of extra deck space and nice side decks with extra beam. Lots of tankage thanks to volume increasing exponentially with LOA. Full gallies. Gen sets and air conditioners possible. Radar typical.

45+, lots of three cabin configurations, ketch rigs, cutter rigs, two heads minimum, tankage to take you anywhere. Engine and system rooms. Storage areas. Room for water makers, gen set, even washer/dryers.

Interesting to see how manufacturers use space at different sizes. Headroom is often gained by sacrificing side deck. Newer hulls carry lots of beam aft adding volume. Really liked the Pullman berth but hard to find.

This might be controversial but I feel like there is little to no benefit in the middle ground for the family of 4. Either squeeze a young family of 4 into a 27-30 feet (eventually will outgrow) or go big enough (at least 42) to be comfortable. The 30-40 range doesn't buy you a lot. Huge gains for a couple though especially in comfort and speed. What you can afford and what boat matches you sailing goals is also important. 



Josh


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Don0190 said:


> Hey I like those things also and don't really understand why people think boats need to be setup different based on gender.


Everyone likes them - the difference is that guys will nearly always go sailing, even without them, women not so much.

There ARE actual gender differences - it's what makes the world go round.


----------



## southbound (Jun 9, 2013)

SloopJonB said:


> Everyone likes them - the difference is that guys will nearly always go sailing, even without them, women not so much.
> 
> There ARE actual gender differences - it's what makes the world go round.


Sure, there are some behavioral differences in gender that often hold true. There is also a huge amount of in-group variation. Some women take to roughing it way better than some men. Why make assumptions about what will or wont work for someone else when you can just ask?


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

southbound said:


> Sure, there are some behavioral differences in gender that often hold true. There is also a huge amount of in-group variation. Some women take to roughing it way better than some men. Why make assumptions about what will or wont work for someone else when you can just ask?


Well OF COURSE you ask on a personal level - this discussion was based on generalizations.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I wonder if we could find a correlation between the men who find themselves sailing solo, or without their spouse a lot of the time, and those who perceive women as "admirals" needing this higher level of luxury and comfort. Different people need or want different levels of creature comfort. Generalizations within the already whacky subgroup of cruisers seems ill conceived. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

My comments were based on that exact thing. Most of the guys I know who sail solo have very basic boats, small outboard powered sloops, stripped out racers and so forth. Conversely, most of the guys I know who sail with women aboard have Hunters and the like with all the comforts of home.

I didn't make up my observations out of whole cloth, they are based on 40 years of sailing & cruising and as broad generalizations they have held true.

Try a survey on HerSailNet - ask them what kind of boats they sail - and factor in that they are hard core sailors, not the usual wives & GF's most guys sail with. I'm betting the comfort factor will still rate very high.


----------



## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

I think age has a lot more to do with it than gender.

We are 35 (me) 33 (her) and 5 (the boy) and have zero "luxury" aboard our 30+ year old boat. A place to sleep, a way to go to the bathroom, food, and beer, and we're good for days at a time.

When we are 60s I won't be surprised if our standards have changed.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I think age does have something to do with it. It's my observation (not yet 40 years in the making), that men of a certain oldness more often treat their wives and girlfriends as delicate princesses that need to be appeased and coddled. The younger cruising couples seem to approach things more as a collaboration. 

Everyone needs a certain level of comfort. There are plenty of luxury-needing men on this forum, and there are many simple-is-best women. It's less a gender thing and more a cultural and generational fact, at least in my observation. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

My wife insists on a smaller boat. Guess it's because the anchors she has to handle are lighter. But seriously, after 20+ years we have found our sweet spot. And yes she does do most the anchoring!


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smj said:


> My wife insists on a smaller boat. Guess it's because the anchors she has to handle are lighter. But seriously, after 20+ years we have found our sweet spot. And yes she does do most the anchoring!


Let your wife drive a bigger boat and you get up on the foredeck.


----------



## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> Let your wife drive a bigger boat and you get up on the foredeck.


Nah, as I said we have found our sweet spot. Tried a larger boat and neither one of us liked it especially my wife, and it had nothing to do with anchoring. She has the option of steering or dealing with the anchor and she's always picked anchor duty, which is great for me as I have a failing lower back. Just shows that not all women are alike. For us it would definitely be choose the smallest boat you can live with not the biggest you can afford or handle.


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

there's this new piece of equipment around now days, it's called a windlass


----------



## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

Don0190 said:


> there's this new piece of equipment around now days, it's called a windlass


Yes Windlasses are great.....when they work. I don't want any boat that I have to rely on mechanically to be able to handle. We use a windlass but if it breaks the anchors are also light enough to be handled by hand. Learned this from having a broken windlass and a 66lb Bruce with all 3/8" chain. It was doable but I was also younger.


----------



## foamy (Nov 26, 2012)

Gender and age may dictate boat size, but from my experience in my younger days in the 60s and 70s, backpacking, and VW camping throughout Baja and mainland Mexico and other remote places with my girl friends and former wife, it's the women's attitude and desire to rough it in the first place.

My current wife of over 20 years and I started out with a stripped out Morgan 27 that we raced extensively, and also cruised the SoCal Islands for a week or so, over a period of 10 years...just barely above the level of VW camping, but she learned to adapt. Moved up to a Catalina 38 for 13 years, thought we had died and gone to heaven with the upgrades and size, but hey by now we were in our 50s. 

Now in our 60s, we have a Tartan 3800, which just about has everything. We bought it after one night at dinner, my wife brings Latitude 38 to the dinner table (how many husbands can say that)...and says "honey I think I found our next boat"...shock and awe!! Got to please the little lady, but my current wife has been around boats even before I met her. Gotta pick the right lady to play with and share yours and her passions. No trophy wife, high maintenance ladies (and I'm not talking expensive boats) for me.


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

I guess it's a balancing act. If fear of big or breaking stuff keeps you in a rowboat with spare oarlocks and a couple of spare oars, well at least you're still boating. Going bigger may mean you put faith in stuff like maybe an engine or a winch and maybe your ingenuity to solve problems as they arise. Throwing money at it is an easy way to find a comfort level .I think that's called experience.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

foamy said:


> Gender and age may dictate boat size, but from my experience in my younger days in the 60s and 70s, backpacking, and VW camping throughout Baja and mainland Mexico and other remote places with my girl friends and former wife, it's the women's attitude and desire to rough it in the first place.
> 
> My current wife of over 20 years and I started out with a stripped out Morgan 27 that we raced extensively, and also cruised the SoCal Islands for a week or so, over a period of 10 years...just barely above the level of VW camping, but she learned to adapt. Moved up to a Catalina 38 for 13 years, thought we had died and gone to heaven with the upgrades and size, but hey by now we were in our 50s.
> 
> Now in our 60s, we have a Tartan 3800, which just about has everything. We bought it after one night at dinner, my wife brings Latitude 38 to the dinner table (how many husbands can say that)...and says "honey I think I found our next boat"...shock and awe!! Got to please the little lady, but my current wife has been around boats even before I met her. Gotta pick the right lady to play with and share yours and her passions. No trophy wife, high maintenance ladies (and I'm not talking expensive boats) for me.


Sounds to me like you got the 1st place trophy.


----------



## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

I think your right, it's all about experience. Over the past 20+ years we've cruised on catamarans between 30 and 43 feet and we've come to the conclusion, based on our experience, that the mid 30' range is what we enjoy. I like to keep things simple, not because I'm not able to repair things but I just don't want to. We don't feel the need to have all the bells and whistles, been there didn't enjoy it as much. So I would conclude that bigger is better for many people, not us. It's a great feeling to not have that need or want for something bigger and better, because in our case bigger was not better I mean that is what this thread is about right?


----------



## Gregrosine (Feb 10, 2013)

[U/U] You only live once. Don't have regrets. I think you will regret more what you didn't do than what you did do. Go for it an enjoy!


----------



## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

I have the perfect boat for the OP: the Alerion Express 33:

From the Sailing magazine review:
"From a practical perspective, the Express 33 blends the daysailing mindset of the popular Alerion 28 with the interior elbowroom of the 38. This sweet mix of simplicity and accommodation makes the 33 perfect for a weekend escape. Of course the Express 33, with its ease of handling ethos is also ideal for an hour's sail after work. And I confess, although the interior is pared down, I'd be rather content cruising for a week, greedily spending hours at the helm of this exquisite sailboat.

Alerion's Garry Hoyt has coined the phrase, "select sailing," which he sums up as "sailing on your own terms, when it best suits your schedule, your mood, the weather, etc." I like that concept. The new Alerion Express 33 is all about sailing, pure sailing, there is no secret agenda. When you feel the need for an attitude adjustment just hop aboard, slip the lines and get underway....

Alerion Express 33​
Buy one that's about 5-7 years old, to take the depreciation edge off. Should meet your desire for something new. Also, I really want one, and I will live vicariously through you. 

E.


----------



## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

I'm not sure why anyone feels a need to make generalizations about women to understand why some wives don't like sailing. I don't know how much time you all have been spending outside your marina, but out there _most people_ don't like sailing. Sure, they don't admit it - maybe not even to themselves - but start asking some people you meet outside the marina to go sailing with you and watch the excuses roll in. And the few who do like it - well, often they like a lot of other things too. Things that make them unavailable to go sailing.

I'm definitely way more into sailing than my wife - who is way more outdoorsy than I am, by the way - so I do my very best to make sure she has a lovely time when we go out. There's a reason most people you see at marinas are couples - few of us can find anyone else either so fond of us or sailing to give up their weekend plans to go sailing with us.


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Hey, it's not just boats. I think a lot of us have gone through the bigger is not necessarily better experience with houses, as well.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Group9 said:


> Hey, it's not just boats. I think a lot of us have gone through the bigger is not necessarily better experience with houses, as well.


Amen. I've done the big house, big view, big entertainment thing and ain't never going back!!

However, if we could swing a 60+ Oyster, the Hylas 70, or our new obsession, a Discovery 67, I think we would ignore the land based experience. 

No risk at the moment.


----------

