# A Best Order of Boat Improvements



## marvout (Feb 17, 2013)

I've been wondering where to ask this question and figured that this would be about the best place.

If I were to buy a plastic classic, something like an Alberg 30 or a Pearson Triton, presuming that it 'sails fine' like the adverts always say <grin> but that it will obviously a complete going over, what is the best order of doing the improvements? If a person spends a few years going over the boat, fixing things up, once they do finally get out cruising (presume primarily solo and coastal), which refit work is okay to have done earlier and which would you want done the most recently. AND, which work would you want done before other work in order to prevent having to redo work or at least minimize the amount of removing/replacing the same hardware over again?

MH


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

Get a survey and get those items done first. Then get a book like "Ready to Sail: A Captain's Guide to Boat Inspection and Repairs-- Preparations of Boat and Crew for Offshore Passagemaking" I just pulled that from the internet there are several like it. Pick out what needs to get done for what you intend to do.


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## Smyrna (Feb 7, 2016)

hello Sir,

I bought an old derelict boat one time and spent two years refitting it. I moved aboard a year into the refit. I think you start with the inside first- Electrics, plumbing, carpentry, ect. Once the inside has had the leaks fixed and proper refits made you can begin enjoying your boat by sleeping out on it which is really nice. Once the inside is fairly good then I would address the outside. Standing rigging and running rigging first, then sails. Lastly I would do the Gel coat and fiber glass repairs. This would include hauling the boat, scraping and painting the bottom and generally inspecting the keel and sea cocks from out of the water. If you do the keel first by the time the rest is done you have to clean the bottom again. So long as the boat sits focus on the topside and work down. Just my opinion.
Good luck!
-Smyrna


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## Dancin' Bare (Dec 30, 2015)

Start with the survey. You will have a pretty good idea what you want to address after your first couple of times out. I always start with safety issues - no fun swimming back. Its as important to get back in as it is to get out...Go for things that will cost more money if you don't address to them quickly. I bought a boat that had the original standing rigging for 29 years. This was in the survey. I replaced it immediately then addressed sails and running rigging the following year. I would hate to drop a mast because I chose to up grade sails as opposed to addressing a potential issue. Your budget will get more than its fair share of voice. If you're safe and your major systems - rig/motor are in good order you can look at the other stuff according to your needs. There are some tricks that you can do to stretch your budget. If your are sure that you like the boat, have them hold it on the hard after the survey. You can paint the bottom, do the wax on wax off routine and replace the zinks before you splash her. After you get your boat in pretty good shape you can start to up grade. I try to upgrade one system each year.My first year with my current boat I did the standing rigging, bottom and new life raft. The following year I replaced the running rigging, two sails and lazy jacks. I did all of the electronics, new radar and chart plotter, radio, LED lights the following year. This year batteries, and minor engine work. I try to do similar things at the same time. One trip up the mast is better than two, pulling new cable for the chart plotter can be done at the same time as your do the radar. This allows me more time on the water. Have fun. Working on them is a good part of the fun and certainly makes you appreciate a good breeze more when you fine one!


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

To be honest without seeing the boat I don't know how anybody can advise you what needs to be done first or in what order.
Depends entirely on the condition of the boat and what work the previous owner put into it. Each boat and owner is different.
The Alberg 30 across from me needs everything! Not one system works on that boat from fresh water to electronics. I wouldn't know where to begin, I also wouldn't pay for that boat. As it sits it has negative value. Would be a tough choice.
My first thoughts would be standing and running rigging, engine, electrical. Make it reliable then make it pretty. Who knows the P.O. may have done most/some/none of this recently.......
See what the survey says then tackle the structural/safety issues. A good survey will tell you immediate needs then things to keep an eye on and fix down the road.


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## SV Siren (Mar 8, 2013)

Without seeing the boat I would definitely start with a survey and make a list from that, but also include items you would like to do that are not noted on the survey. In his book Good Old Boat, Don Casey says to make a priority chart with three levels, Structure, Feature, and Finish. Each of those have three levels of priority, Immediate, Less Urgent, and Someday. Fill in your chart with your list items, and go from there. I have done exactly this and it has helped quite a bit, but I do have to say that opening one can of worms usually exposes more problems that will need to be addressed before finishing that original list item.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

As everyone has said, this advice is very hard to give in the abstract without knowing the boat, survey results, and what you want to do with the boat in the short term before you go cruising. Here's some rules you might apply to those decisions:

1. Assuming you want to day sail it before going off cruising, do the stuff that makes it safe for day sailing first. Standing rigging, rudder, anything that can let water get in the boat, bottom, running rigging, reasonable sails...stuff like that.

2. Whenever you take something apart, fix everything that you can reach. For example, some plumbing might be behind a water heater or buried in a compartment. When you take stuff apart to fix it, upgrade everything else that's questionable that you can reach. The message here is that frequently getting to something is the most labor intensive part of any repair, and if you value your time or pay for labor, labor is the personal time or $$ expensive part of boat repairs.

3. What needs to work? The top priority is that the rig needs to stand, the boat needs to float and stay water tight, the rudder needs to stay on and work, the sails need to function, and only slightly below this list resides the engine for most of us, because getting to a fuel dock or into a tight marina under sail can be challenging. After all this stuff works, everything else is a convenience. You could use a bucket as a head, have a non-functioning fresh water system, eat cold food, get ice everyday to keep it fresh, etc...and survive. Not my idea of good living, but people do it. But for sure if the boat sinks, the rig falls on your head, the rudder falls off, or the sails won't work, you aren't going sailing

Good luck! Recommend you pick a classic plastic that's been well cared for by a knowledgeable owner. Most apparent bargains turn out to cost more in the end that expect IMHO. But don't wait, go get one, life is short!


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Safety first! Other than that I say sail it like it is for at least a season so you can determine what it really needs. I see so often that folks spend thousands on a new boat at the beginning, then never use the new hardware that they thought they "had to have." Though it is nice to buy new dock lines even if it does not need it, just makes you feel like you are doing a lot for a few bucks. Then check things that will keep you alive like standing rigging (masts can kill you if they fall on you, even on small boats) thru hulls steering and the like. As long as electrics are safe (as in won't cause a fire or electrocute you) wait till you know how you will really use the boat. 

Then work on you, sailing lessons if you are not experienced. 

Survey can make sense but an Alberg 30 or a Pearson Triton needing work may well fall into the category of "within acceptable losses" range. Only you can decide what you could afford to loose if it just sinks the first day at the slip. My personal thought is if it is under $5,000 to $8,000 I likely would not get a survey but that is me. I could not easily loose that but a survey on a 30 foot boat is going to be at least $500. Sure it could save you from loosing $5,000 but a $5,000 boat is likely to be worth a couple grand at least in salvage materials. so I choose to live dangerously at the bottom of the market.


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## marvout (Feb 17, 2013)

Thanks, I really appreciate these responses. I completely understand the - it is hard to say... - aspect of this, not knowing the actual boat. Couch-sailing with bigger boat dreams, suffering everything frozen solid. Earlier today I just drove my Jeep over the same GPS locations I sail. <grin> Gotta love the prairies.

I picked up an old Tanzer 22 three years ago. Been working on it, but really want something I can stand up in, something big enough to liveaboard on either the east or west coast, maybe do some great lakes sailing before then. I've quite enjoyed the boat work. Have a background in electrical and carpentry. Have a few small boat builds behind my belt. So there's very little of the work that isn't just getting down and doing it. Not too intimidated by it.

I like the Structure, Feature, and Finish idea. And the rigging before sails theory. Part of the catch 22's I wonder about, if you want to fix the headliner (or inside of the cabin ceiling, if it doesn't have a headliner proper) you want to get all the deck fittings sorted first, and if you're going to do that, then you really want to take care of the deck while you're at it. ...that kind of thing. So before you start redoing the headliner, you firm up your line/rigging plans.

I was lucky/unlucky that the T22 came without any electrical, so I got to put that in from scratch. Nice to know it is all new. But, learned, that really the next time around, I will want to plan all the powered devices I might want and run wires for it all in one shot. But, one can only learn what you really want by actually using the boat for a time and learning what kind of habits the boat and how you use it create and then planning for that. I'm sure all will happen in due course, as money allows. Safety first, then make it strong, then make it (more) fun. And we'll see how much work gets done over needlessly due to lack of planning.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

will it float?? fix that first.
will it sail... fix that next
does it steer without failing? fix that next. 
does the toilet function?? fix that next. along with power supplies..
does it have anything preventing use of boat as designed? fix that next.
is it easily lived in while repairing?? fix that next.
does it look good? fix that last. 
when you are done you will mebbe have a boat. good luck. 
buy many books especially nigel calders. 
read them

surveys are around 600-700 usd. if you feel your hull and deck worthy of the expense, go for it, but it will tell you nothing you do not already know. 
surveys are designed for banks and insurance companies, not boat buyers and repairing.


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

If your experience turns out to be anything like mine, your surveyor might write a report that says strange things like "failing hull paint." I found out that insurance companies get queasy about words like "failing" on a boat. I had the paint buffed instead, which looks really good from 20 feet, and is perfect for someone who is still learning how to dock a big boat. I also really and truly thought the first thing I'd do was rip out all the plumbing. That was 3 years ago. This did not happen because good cleaning and diligent care about what goes into the holding tank has pretty much taken care of all the smells. One day, I attempted to replace the leaky hot water tank, but removing that lead very quickly to something bigger, and now I have new countertops, faucets and sinks -- beautiful and no more leaky galley faucet, but completely unnecessary. It was also nearly a full year without water on the boat. The advice from others about first taking care to ensure that the rigging and sails are sound, and that things that can sink a boat are fixed, are the best upgrades you can do absent any specific information about the boat. Then just sail it (LOTS!) and see what you think you can live with versus what you have the budget and time to do. It's all just theoretical until you put the time in to get to really know the boat.


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## oldlaxer1 (Mar 27, 2008)

Safety
Comfort
Aesthetics
Toys & Stuff


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Survey.
Safety & Structural. USCG safety requirements and a working DSC VHF. 
Any outright structural issues, like the chainplates, keel bolts, rotting in bulkheads. Rudder may have water intrusion.
Continuing to standing rigging ("fall down go boom" can ruin your day), primary electrical, through-hulls, hoses, propulsion.
Deck leaks or coring issues.
Only then, any cosmetic issues, any electronics or "toys".
And at whatever point your budget and pleasure allow, probably new sails. The difference between new sails and "these are twenty years old but really, they're still fine" makes all the difference in the world. But not until there's a solid boat to put under them.

The survey "should" say what needs to be done, and if you have an insurer they probably will tell you "yeah, and you've got 90 days to do it or we cancel" just to make it clear.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

I think "hello sailor" totally nailed it. It may be difficult to address items he says to do first, as they aren't sexy. I mean, how much fun are thru-hulls? And water intrusion? Ugh. But he's right.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

1) keep the water out (ie hoses, clamps, seacocks)
2) keep the rig up (ie standing rigging, fittings, chainplates)
3) steering (ie drop the rudder, replace the bearings or stuffing box and open up the rudder (it's wet) for repair or replacement)

That'll keep you busy for a bit and your wallet empty for a while. Good luck and have fun.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

marvout said:


> I've been wondering where to ask this question and figured that this would be about the best place.
> 
> If I were to buy a plastic classic, something like an Alberg 30 or a Pearson Triton, presuming that it 'sails fine' like the adverts always say <grin> but that it will obviously a complete going over, what is the best order of doing the improvements? If a person spends a few years going over the boat, fixing things up, once they do finally get out cruising (presume primarily solo and coastal), which refit work is okay to have done earlier and which would you want done the most recently. AND, which work would you want done before other work in order to prevent having to redo work or at least minimize the amount of removing/replacing the same hardware over again?
> 
> MH


"Sails fine" is the best kind of project. I can't see losing any sailing time when you have an off season to do upgrades and repairs.

And your first season sailing will tell you what needs attention first. Good luck!


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Simple and easy to remember, ready? MAKE IT FLOAT...MAKE IT GO... MAKE IT PRETTY... REPEAT...


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

marvout said:


> ... AND, which work would you want done before other work in order to prevent having to redo work or at least minimize the amount of removing/replacing the same hardware over again?
> 
> MH


Marvout: My way of addressing this concern is with a technique called Mind Mapping. Mind Mapping software is downloadable at no cost from several websites.

The way I use mind mapping for complex task such as you describe:

First I envision what I want the end result to be. Then I list all the tasks that have to get done in order to realize the vision. Next, I prioritize the tasks. There are at least a couple different philosophies regarding this prioritization described in this thread. My recommendation for the top priority is to stop water intrusion. Obviously, I want to stop hull leaks, but I also want to stop deck leaks. If I allow water to intrude into the hull or deck, it will cause MAJOR problems down the line.

Next I start granulating the preparations and subtasks needed to finish the major tasks. Right there on the mind map, next to the subtask, I place links to details that are stored on my computer or the web. Mind mapping will helps me see the relationship between major tasks and all the subtasks that are involved. With a graphical view of the whole project, I can sequence the subtasks so that they are done just once. I find that the original priority order gets modified, but the amount of time and effort will be reduced. The mind map morphs throughout the project as new information, thoughts, and revelations come to light.

Mind mapping is easier done than described; give it a try. One of the great things is that the software allows me to map my thoughts in a way that makes sense and works for me. Your mind map for the very same project will probably look much different. This is opposed to a Gannt chart, in which the form's regimentation makes the display cumbersome. I don't think like a Gannt chart looks; the mind maps that I create look like the way I think.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

mind mapping.
good one.
try it on boat, as boat has other ideas and will tell you what is wrong. 
good luck mind mapping it
rodl.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

On second thought, the first things you should fix on an old boat - and they will need fixing - are deck, port and hatch leaks.

If you spend any time on an old boat, leaks(especially over your berth) will make life onboard, miserable.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

zeehag said:


> mind mapping.
> good one.
> try it on boat, as boat has other ideas and will tell you what is wrong.
> good luck mind mapping it
> rodl.


Did you read the part about how the mind map morphs as additional information and insights come to light?

I forgot to say mind mapping, like any new skill, takes practice, and will not work well for people with closed and rigid mindsets.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

map your mind and see what breaks before your mindset allows it... rodl..
it is easy to figger out what to fix on a boat-- the repair usually involves something that breaks. 
map that mind. 
overthinking does nothing good when in need of repairs you cannot figger out how to do because you are so busy mapping your mind.
it is not the mind requiring repairs it is the boat. map that.
boats are straightforward. brains are not. do not overthink. 
boat repair is easy.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

LOL I could have the repair done long before I finished "mind mapping".
Had a singer in a band who swore this was the best way to learn lyrics, I left the band because she could never remeber the lyrics!
Boat repair is simple as long as you don't overthink, find problem - fix problem - go sailing, repeat next week!
Or you could be one of those wierd dock people - pay dock fees to work on the boat all summer while it is in the water, get the boat perfect in time to haul it out, then repeat next summer.....


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