# The Real Cost of Ownership



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I am retiring in 2 years. At that time I would like to buy a 28-30 boat to take down to the Bahamas in the winter and keep here on the east coast in the summer. I am currently taking sailing lessons and hope to meet a few folks here locally to crew/sail with in the meantime. 

Here's my real question. After reading this board and others I am starting to fear I am in over my head financially with this grand idea. I keep hearing about maintenance costs that just seem very high. I want to ask the experts about the real cost of ownership. I think I have the insurance and slip fee information I need. It is the maintenance part that has me concerned.

I have about $50,000 - $60,000 to purchase a boat and can spend perhaps $3,000 a year (average) on maintenance. I realize some years might be more some might be less. But ON AVERAGE I just could not spend much more than that. Is this realistic?

Would I be better off purchasing a 4 or 5 year old production boat, Catalina maybe, and hope for very little maintenance for several years or should I go for a 15 or 20 year old (tartan/pearson/Oday) better quality boat and do a refitting on it right away and hope that takes care of most future major maintenance? What would it realistically cost to really take an older boat and put it in tip top shape? I have no mechanical ability and am too old to learn now so any maintenance would be be done by professionals.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my very inexperienced questions.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I would recommend that you go with an older boat and spend time re-fitting it. I seriously doubt that you are too old to learn. Get Don Casey's book This Old Boat, as it describes the skills you'll need in pretty good detail. Most of the skills involved are rather basic. 

The two skills that you might not have any experience with are fiberglassing and electrical work. Fiberglassing requires much the same skills as painting. Electrical work, especially just 12 VDC, is relatively simple as well. Most of the other stuff is mostly common sense. 

If you do most of the re-fitting yourself, you will learn a lot about the boat, and you will be able to minimize your future maintenance costs quite a bit. 

Going simpler is probably better than going with a boat loaded with gadgets... as the more gadgets you have, the more you have to repair/maintain/replace. 

I'd also recommend John Vigor's "Twenty Small Sailboats To Take You Anywhere." Several boats in that book are favorites of mine. The Alberg 30, the Cape Dory 28, the Southern Cross 28, the Albin Vega, are all good choices, and rather a good deal below your budget. 

I generally recommend that you reserve at least 20% of your boat buying budget for refitting, repairing or upgrading the boat.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

My advice would be to buy the four-five year old production boat, and I would think your maintenance budget should be OK for a number of years, provided the boat has been not abused and comes fully equipped as you need it. Buying a fix-me-upper or adding a lot of new gear gets real expensive. There is no rule-of-thumb for refit/upgrade costs, it really depends on whether the owner has been spending money on the boat or just running it down. We have a mid-80s CS 36T we love, but we have spent more money on refits/upgrades in the first couple of years than the original purchase cost.

I think you can't go wrong with a boat like a Catalina for a first boat. Here's an example:
YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale=


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

*10-20%*

The rule of thumb (not mine) is somewhere between 10%-20% of the cost of the boat per year for maintenance & repairs. I have been fortunate that for the past three years its been below 10% s the PO toke great care of her.

Not having the skill or desire to do allot of it yourself... your really at a disadvantage. For example; I did a blister repair on the bottom last spring, total cost was about $1200 and 50 hours of my time. To have it done by the yard would have cost me somewhere around $4000 to $5000.

Once my kids are out of day care that will free up $1600 per month...ya hooooooooooooo...1095 days left and counting


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Going by the 10% rule: So if I bought a newer Catalina at $55,000 I should expect about $5,500 in repairs but if I bout and an older $20,000 boat I should only expect about $2,000 in repairs? Surely that is not right. If it is, then I will surely get an older boat! 

As far as repairs go, yes, the really basic stuff straight manual labour, I suppose I could do but anything mechanical or electrical is out of the question I am afraid.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Have you given any thought to chartering?


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

The 10% rule applies AFTER the initial hit. When you buy a boat, you might have to spend quite a bit on important things. Once you overcome that, expenses do go down (except that unexpected happens sometimes).


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Also, I assume the Catalina 28-30 is perfectly fine for doing a Bahamas trip? I have not heard many say that it is a particularly sturdy vessel I am afraid. What is the general opinion on that?


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

The Catalina 30 would be fine for a Bahamas trip. I believe that there have been over 1000 Catalina hulls made. More they any other boat that I can think of.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Like sailingfool said, its very difficult to determine, a good surveyor can tell you what to expect but they will likely miss somethings.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

T37Chef said:


> Have you given any thought to chartering?


Do you mean in place of buying a boat? I have been with friends that have chartered in the Virgin Islands a couple of times and it is ok, but certainly not the same as having your own boat. I am planning on staying down in Exuma for months at the time just enjoying my retirement.

Can someone please clarify if they really believe if I spend $50,000 - $60,000 on the initial purchase, whether a newer boat or an older boat and then spend what it takes to get her up to speed, can I realistically get by on $3,000/year AVERAGE for maintenance for 5 -10 years or so? That is probably as long as i will physically be able to sail, if I am lucky. I will be on a fixed income and I don't want to bite off more than I can chew and this end up being a nightmare instead of my dream retirement.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Did not realize you intended on living aboard for months. So of course chartering is out, the thought was based on your comments about DIY items.

*Boat = B*ring *o*ut *a*nother *t*housand


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Outside of a major problem like an engine failure, I think you can more then get by with $3000.00 in maintenance cost, if your willing to do some of the work yourself. a lot of the work isn't hard to do but takes time, lots of time. Your retiring, will have lots of time so I would welcome something to do. Varnishing teak in paradice sounds like a good plan to me.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Remember: Cruising is defined as fixing your boat in exotic places. You have to be prepared to foot the bill there too!

Ed


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

If you have 50K to spend, I would suggest you buy a 15 to 20K boat and put 30K into it. My reasoning is that 30K is just about enough to replace everything on a 28 to 30 foot hull. 5K on electronics, 3K on the galley, 6K on sails, 10K on an engine, 4K on rigging and 2K on electrical.

The new gear that you put on to your older hull, will be under warranty, and there will not be any hidden issues for you to deal with. You'll know the history of everything. 3K should be enough to maintain it. The first few years your costs will be much lower, but they will increase so if you average it over ten years, 3K should be comfortable...

You really need to think hard though about whether or not you are willing to learn to maintain things yourself. You definitely do not have the budget for yard maintenance. It is not difficult at all to learn, but it is a necessity that you understand how the boat works and how to fix things when (_not if but when_) there are problems. You can't call a yard techie when you're twenty miles offshore...

T37's suggestion re: chartering is a good one. I think that should be your first move - find out if you like living on a boat before you take the plunge...

I would not suggest that you put your money into a Catalina. They are not bad boats, but there are stronger hulls out there that were not produced in such large numbers. I think you might find it easier to recoup the investment in a beautifully refit Triton, or similar boat that is in demand. At any given time there are 250 Catalinas for sale, and most of them will be cheaper than yours. Someone looking for a Triton (or similar boat) in good shape though, will appreciate the fact that you have refit the boat and be more likely to pay you for the upgrades.


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## byrondv (Jan 6, 2007)

Since you are looking to buy at boat in 2 years - I would suggest buying a cheap 25-27 now. You say that you are taking sailing lessons and looking to crew... why not on your own boat?

It will give you the chance to learn how to maintain a boat, what issues you have with spending multiple days on it (and what you might like about it), and in the end the price won't have gone down if it is maintained.

Old sailboats only get so cheap. I purchased my '78 Hunter 25' for 2.5k (listed at 5k). My friend purchased an older Ranger 26 for 3.5k (listed at 5.5k). Both boats could easily be sold for what we got them for, and based on the cosmetic work we have done... perhaps a bit more.

In the end - the only way to know what you want in a long term cruiser is to spend a long(ish) term on the boat. Nice thing is it doesn't have to break the bank. Look for a deal and don't sink money into it - just time and effort.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

IMHO, Sailormann has hit it on the head, his post is much the reasoning behind what I posted earlier. _Getting a less expensive older boat will leave you enough to outfit it the way you want yourself. *And in doing the outfitting you will learn quite abit about the boat and how to maintain it. *_

*If you are not willing to learn how to do repairs and maintenance on your boat, then I would highly recommend you choose some other form of retirement. * Unless you have the skills, most of which are not difficult to learn, to maintain and repair most of the minor, but regularly-occuring, issues on a boat, you have to be fairly wealthy to own a boat.

Waxing, polishing, touching up varnish, repairing scratches in the gelcoat, and such is all a regular occurrence. Fixing small problems, like a clogged head, or replacing a masthead light fixture are fairly common examples of tasks that you need to learn to do for yourself.

Sailormann's point about there being no one to call when you're out at sea is a very valid one. There's a common saying on boats-*"At sea there is no plumber"*-meaning that if you have a plumbing problem, it is up to you to fix it.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Urro...given your budget and your plans I think that getting an older Cat30 will be just about perfect for you. Your major liability AFTER surveying the boat and making sure rig/sails and hull are fine will be the engine. Get a separate survey of the engine and make sure you can trust it. 
As to ongoing costs, you will need to haul and paint the bottom once a year so you need to plan for 1000-1500 to get that done...then there will be other failures along the way...heads, hoses, heat exchangers,pumps, etc. and can all add up but I see no reason why allocating around 3k a year as a maintenance budget shouldn't work out. 
Despite your reluctance...you NEED to be able to handle basic stuff yourself like changing fuel filters and bleeding injectors and rebuilding your head or you WILL eat up your budget. I suggest that taking a basic diesel course (see MackBoring.com) is equally important as your sailing lessons as you will spend FAR more time motoring than sailing AND you will need some understanding of 12V systems as well since solar/wind/battteries will become extremely important to you at anchor in the Exumas or Abacos. 
You don't ned to be an expert...just know enough to be dangerous and help yourself when no other help is available. 
Another thing...carry a FULL ENGINE SPARES kit as well as spares for all other important systems as getting stuff shipped into the Bahamas will kill you both in time and expense. Good luck!


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

$1000 to $1500 for a haul and paint ? I'll admit that I do things myself. I'll also admit that I live in a very expensive place, New Jersey. I know many things are cheaper elsewhere. A Bottom haul with me buying the paint and doing the work is about $600.00.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

I don't like "rule of thumb" decisions as it does not take into account the wide range of conditions that boatsare in. If you are careful in your search and purchase, you may find the identicle boat in better condition for less money. Blows the estimates away. I recomend gathering info on various recurring mainentance expenses and then choose a boat with as many recently completed as possible and buy accordingly. As the schedule rolls back around (and it will as sure as the sun will rise) you can be prepared financially or learn how one item at a time.
pigslo


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## Bump (Aug 23, 2004)

*Maintenance*

I bought a 1979 28' Mariner 4 years ago. The Boat was in very nice condition and was pretty much "sailaway" when she was bought for $13500.00. I keep the boat in good shape and do most of the routine maintenance like bottom painting, teak work, plumbing etc on my own. But, like you I am not so smart mechanicly or electrically. I am also older and can't get into the tight spots like I used to. Since then I have done considerable upgrading etc.
2007 all professionally done
New sails $2800.00
New Lifelines/standing rigging and traverler system 2500.00
New running rigging $450.00

2006 all professionall done
New roller furler $2600.00
Custom cockpit cushions $650.00
Mainsail cover $400.00

2005 my work
New head
cockpit shower

In addttion I have spent about $9000.00 on "accessories" Things like an RIB and engiine, GPS, PFD's, cockpit grill, various lines and sundries and a host of "stuff" that I either needed or wanted. (stay away from boat shows in winter)

Maintenance/stroage/mooring etc costs about $3000.00 a year.

Sometime in the next year or so I will have the boat rewired. Cost probably more than I think it will be.

The engine is also original to the boat so I keep praying that it continues to live up to the Yenmar rep and run forever.

I guess my point is that you can get a really nice 28-30 footer for $15.000 to 25,000 put another 10-20,000 into it and have a realy nice boat that will not suck up every spare $ in maintenance. Look for boats that have had recent upgrades like a new engine and/or sails. Upgrades like the abve last years then its just upkeep.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Here is an approximate rundown on the basic annual costs for keeping my 30 foot CAL 9.2 on Long Island Sound:
Yacht Club dues and launch service - $1400
Winter storage - $1000
Insurance - $500
Maintenance materials - $500

So that's about $3400 assuming I do ALL the work myself (which I do) and before any major projects like new sails, engine overhaul, etc. And this is on a boat with a market value of under $20,000. These costs would be about the same if I had a brand new 30 footer worth $100,000. So you see the problem with just using a percentage of boat value to estimate costs.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Freesail...I was NOT figuring on him doing the sanding and painting himself...but even so...haul,powerwash, block and relaunch is $12 a foot here so that would be $360 and 2 gallons of Rinidad SR...(needed for Bahamas) is over $400. Add some materials and labor and it is easy to get to 1000-1500. The real difference in your price and mine is that I don't like Tyvek suits and respirators! (G)


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> The real difference in your price and mine is that I don't like Tyvek suits and respirators! (G)


Lol, They do get sticky.. And people do look at you funny To use the travel lift and stands here averages about $300. The yard I am at is $270.00


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## Morgan3820 (Dec 21, 2006)

It is cheaper in the long run to by a boat, particularly a smaller boat, that is in good shape and has most/all of the equipment/upgrades that you want. It will cost more initially but cheaper than doing it later.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I am by no means an expert in boat maintenance. My main concern is your very tight budget. Things break down, and they break down very unexpectedly in the sea. If I were you, I would have a special reserve for surprise expenses. I agree with the guys who suggest a smaller/older and cheaper boat. The only concern is your planned cruises. I don't think smaller Catalinas are very suitable for this purpose. I might be wrong, but if i were you, I would try to narrow down my search and find a realistic liveaboard cruiser. Since you don't have much experience sailing and fixing things, you will need crew with you sailing to Bahamas. Boy, I can't imagine living aboard in a Cat 28 or 30 with a bunch of guys


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

mdraysailor said:


> Boy, I can't imagine living aboard in a Cat 28 or 30 with a bunch of guys


But a Catalina 30 by himself would be a nice liveabroad....


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

*"you will need crew with you sailing to Bahamas"

*Why would you need crew for an 8-10 hour trip?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Urro, I'd strongly suggest spending time on some different boats before buying any boat. They each are different, the same way that a Fiat Spider and a Dodge Minivan are different. Except with boats, it is harder to tell how they will handle until you've spent time on them.

With some boats there is a fairly narrow "slot" that you have to trim the sails to, to get optimum performance. No problem once or if you know how to--but vexing compared to a boat that is very forgiving. Others perform better in light versus heavy winds, no one boat does "everything" best, and it is only after you spend some time on different boats that you'll realize what makes you happy. Otherwise--boat #1 should be chosen for resale value, since you'll want boat #2 three years down the line.<G>

Annual expenses include your insurance fees, dockage/mooring, and hauling to paint the bottom, usually annually. And the bottom paint, which can run $100-$200/gallon and a 28' boat just about comsumes a full gallon of it.

Then there are the sails...a very rough $4-5000 for a set of main and genoa for a 30' boat, and that's just the basic two, figuring they have five good years of use in them and after that, they're better used as awnings than sails.

On an older boat (15-20 years) you might need to replace the standing rigging, and the support cables. Can run $10,000, surprise, but that's something to be done every 15-20 years. Still, if you haven't been budgeting for it, "surprise".

And you can figure there will be something worn, broken, burnt out, leaking, to the tune of $500-1000 in miscellaneous repairs every year.

While everyone won't learn engine mechanics, finding good "boat workers" is harder than finding good plumbers or roofers. And pricier. So by all means, spend $50 on a multimeter and a basic book on 12-volt electricals, so that you can maintain the boat's electrical systems yourself.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

hellosailor said:


> Then there are the sails...a very rough $4-5000 for a set of main and genoa for a 30' boat, ...


*Say what?!?!* Talking to some guys after participating in a race on a Cat 27, I asked about the cost of sails. The numbers these guys were talking about were more in the $600 - $1000 range. (Edit for clarification: For a single sail.) I find it hard to believe that either they were lying to me, didn't know what they were talking about or that sails for a 30' boat cost four to five times that of those for a 27' boat.



hellosailor said:


> On an older boat (15-20 years) you might need to replace the standing rigging, and the support cables. Can run $10,000, surprise, ...


Again: I'm floored. $10,000 to replace the headstay, backstay and shrouds on a 30' boat? That seems a mite excessive, even for parts with the word "marine" associated with them.

Certainly I don't know what I'm talking about. That's the reason for my chiming-in. If those numbers are at all accurate, I think the wife and I best plan for a different adventure.

Seriously.

Jim


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

Jim,

Your friends would have to steal the sails to get them for 600-1000. Hellosailors number for sails is about right. Now, there are a lot of people out there 15 years later with their original sails, so it depends what you want them to do. If you are racing you need new sails every few years to be really competitive. If you are serious then you can figure on $10,000 or more for better sails.

Standing rigging number may be a little high, but it really depends on the rig.Again, lots of rigs out there that are 15-20 years old. However, when **** happens it is costly. An inexpensive new halyard for a 30' boat is $1.00 + a foot they are 100'. 

You can save money in lots of ways, but sailing is not cheap. Nothing fun usually is.


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

From the Sailnet Store Website ... Catalina 30 sails are $2400

Catalina 30 Sails

You guys are trying to scare the dickens out of this fella.

First off, your budget of $3000 per year for maintenence is fine .... as long as you buy a boat with good:

Sails
rigging
engine
hull

I keep a spreadsheet of my boat expenses and I'm averaging $2500 per year on maintenence. Now that I've said that, the challenge is finding the right boat with the key gear in good shape. Incidently, a newer boat is no guarantee of receiving a boat that's in better condition than an older boat. Many guys are meticulous and keep their pride and joy in excellent shape. On the other hand, there are many "well heeled" professional people who take up "yachting" and decide that it's not their cup of tea. Those boats rot at the dock.

Sailingdog listed some boats you should take a look at. This is a great starting point as these are solid boats. Donna Lange just completed a circumnavigation in a Souther Cross 28. Next, line up a good surveyor to look at the boats that interest you.

This is a great time for you and you're going to have a ball.

Rick in Florida


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

tommyt said:


> Jim,
> 
> Your friends would have to steal the sails to get them for 600-1000.


They were talking per sail (I've seen clarified my comment). There were at least two experienced boat owners there at the time, maybe three. Somebody's way off somewhere.



tommyt said:


> Hellosailors number for sails is about right.


Well then, I guess the wife and I are going to have to have a _serious_ talk. These kinds of numbers just ain't gonna cut it.



tommyt said:


> Now, there are a lot of people out there 15 years later with their original sails, so it depends what you want them to do.


Yes, this I knew.



tommyt said:


> If you are racing you need new sails every few years to be really competitive.


This I knew, too.



tommyt said:


> If you are serious then you can figure on $10,000 or more for better sails.


Not planning on competitive racing. But even half that for a new main and genoa every five years isn't going to be acceptable.



tommyt said:


> Standing rigging number may be a little high,


A "little" high? It had better be a damn sight more than a _little_ high. I know stuff magically becomes more expensive when the word "marine" is associated with it, but I'm hard put to believe that a few hundred feet of guy wire and some fittings should cost anywhere _close_ to $10,000.



tommyt said:


> but it really depends on the rig.Again, lots of rigs out there that are 15-20 years old. However, when **** happens it is costly.


That I understand.



tommyt said:


> An inexpensive new halyard for a 30' boat is $1.00 + a foot they are 100'.


$100 doesn't scare me. Double that for a halyard wouldn't much faze me. But it's a far cry from $200 for a 100' feet of halyard to *ten thousand* dollars for, what, less than 800' of stranded steel cable and associated fittings? Hell, $10k was our original budget for the entire boat!

Maybe we best take up canoing or kayaking for water sports.



tommyt said:


> You can save money in lots of ways, but sailing is not cheap. Nothing fun usually is.


I don't expect it to be "cheap," per se. But some of the numbers I'm seeing quoted in this thread are gonna kill this idea tout de suite.


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

Incidently, My 9 oz Dacron sails are 22 years old and are still going.


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

Semi Jim,

I agree, but keep in mind that people are posting here world wide, and have various levels of involvement with maintenence items. Cut them just a little slack.

Rick in Florida


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Rickm505 said:


> Semi Jim,
> 
> I agree, but keep in mind that people are posting here world wide, and have various levels of involvement with maintenence items. Cut them just a little slack.
> 
> Rick in Florida


Understood, Rick. I'm not trying to give anybody a hard time, or be a jerk about it. My sincere apologies to anybody if I came off that way. I'm just a mite astonished, is all. Unpleasantly astonished, you might say.

A boat we looked at recently, the jib (on a furler) looked pretty ragged to me. I quite unconcernedly informed my wife "That jib looked pretty ragged. I'm pretty confident it'll need replacing," expecting something to the tune of $600 to $700 or so. I certainly didn't expect double, triple, or even quadruple the expense.

I almost didn't look in on this thread again. Glad I did. And, despite my "shock and awe," make no mistake: I sincerely appreciate those with experience taking the time to educate us n00bs, even if some of it isn't exactly welcome information .

Jim


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The only way you can really get a handle on what it is going to cost you is to pick a boat and then spend some time online looking at what it would cost you to replace the various parts on there.

A lot of the people who post regularly here are obssessive, to put it mildly (perhaps even me  ) and will settle for nothing but the best braided carbon fibre reinforced aramid rigging braided by blind virgins on Mars, others will go to the local harware and by a roll of yellow nylon...

You've probably gotten some idea of the range of costs things fall into, and now you need to nail down what they would be in your region, for the type of boating you want to do.


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

A meticulous guy!!

yeah, me too

Rick in Florida


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

I totally agree with Rick and Sailormann. Just be aware of what you are getting into is all.

I have a friend with a early 80's Catalina 30. The boat still has original sails. I think they should be replaced. He thinks they should be replaced. However, I have been thinking that for 5 years and they still sail it regularly and happily.
Only you know what you will be satisfied with. Decide on a boat that you like and do the research online. Here you are going to get general information based on what WE would do. The real question is what would YOU do? YOU and the ADMIRAL is probably closer to the truth.

Good Luck. You can do this sport on a shoestring or with a fat wallet. Sometimes I think the shoestrings seem to have just as much, if not more, fun.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

But if you have to replace the running rigging on a boat rigged for short-handed sailing, you will probably have to replace more than just three halyards and a topping lift. You also have the main sheet, the two jib sheets, the two spinnaker sheets, the reefing lines—two-to-six depending on how many reefs you have and whether you have single or double-line reefing, the outhaul, and possibly the boom vang or boom brake line and the cunningham. If you use a symetrical spinnaker with a pole, you also would have a pole topping lift and the spinnaker guys. 

So that's up to fifteen or sixteen lines... not counting the traveler and genoa car control lines, if you have them.... 

Standing rigging costs depend on how complex the rig is. If you have a relatively simple boat with a single spreader, single set of upper shrouds and double set of lower shrouds, you would have eight shrouds or stays that you have to replace. That's not bad. However, if you have a triple spreader rig with diamond stays, and such... you're talking some serious bucks.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Gee SD - I'm thinking you can definitely come stand over here with the rest of us obsessives...


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

As far as sails cost, I have a O'day 302 and have quotes from three sail makers for a full batten main and a 140% genny running between $2,200 and $2,600 with sail covers.

Dennis


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I was planning on getting a Catalina 22 or similiar to learn on. Something in the $5,000-$6,000 range. Keep it for a few years then sell it and move up to a bigger boat. What kind of yearly maintenance cost am I looking at for a little boat like that if it is in average shape for a 20 year old boat? I am not looking for storage, slip costs etc, just maintenence costs. 

I am not on a seriously tight budget but I am quickly getting scared after reading some of these posts!!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

There's a wide, REAL WIDE, variation in sail prices. You know, like a $4.95 t-shirt at WalMart versus once for $24.95 from LLBean? <G>

Some of the sailmaker web sites, like Airforce, run by the Sailet founders (now separate) will actually price out sails for many boats, with varying options. I'd call them mid-priced, not as high as a custom North or Harken, not as cheap as a Chinese mail-order. The best reality check is to price a main and genoa, see what they quote, and realize that's a middle ground.

Sail prices also vary depending on when you need them. During the pre-season rush when everyone wants it NOW, they will cost you a good deal more than "I'll take them anytime this winter" prices.

Ditto for rigging--I'm thinking of a quote someone recently posted for a somewhat larger boat, but if you call up a respected rigger and say "Come take the old stuff and replace it with new stuff" you'll get sticker shock. As opposed to taking your rigging down at the end of the season, measuring it all up, and mail-ordering it over the winter. Again, a lot of variation. The best way to find out "for sure" would be to either call or stop by a local rigger--one with a good reputation--and tell 'em you're planning to buy a boat, if you need it rerigged what's the ballpark. (If they're any good, they'll realize you are a potential customer and they won't mind at all.)

Funny thing about boats, some things scale up or down with size, others hurt just the same for everything.

Now, if you want a life raft for that crossing to the islands or sailing among them...don't even ask, life raft prices are scarier than sharks. And the damned things have a limited repack life, figure you can amortize it out over ten years and then it is replacement time.

A lot of "budget sailing" can be done--if you know what you are getting into and you do the labor yourself, along with some careful shopping.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

tommyt said:


> Good Luck. You can do this sport on a shoestring or with a fat wallet. Sometimes I think the shoestrings seem to have just as much, if not more, fun.


Definitely as a cruiser you can spend (or not spend) with a greater degree of latitude. I have "former race sails" recut and I use 'em as cruise sails on my old boat. At $250-$400 per, amortized over five seasons, I get better sails than the 20 year old Dacrons at one-tenth the price of new. Race guys have a narrow sense of "used up and blown out" that a good sailmaker can fix to the point of 85-90% of original (especially if it's only a two- or three-season sail). While this is "unacceptable" to a club racer, it makes my boat go better than the blown-out Dacron sails, which I get to keep if I need them in the rafters of my garage.

Winches can be serviced and motors rebuilt. The only thing I think shouldn't be shortcutted is the electrical system, because code changes happen for a reason and some good old boats are not remotely to current code, no pun intended.

On the old boat, we cooked on a camp stove in the cockpit, and brought a Koolatron instead of pulling apart the icebox and redoing the degraded urea insulation and throwing in a cold plate. That suited us, and it kept the weight right down. On the new boat are a lot more "amenities" that we will maintain until they break, and then we'll have to make some hard decisions as to what "quality of life" factors we want to shell out for.

Boating is funny in that you can pay and pay and not sail a tenth of a knot faster, or you can do it on the cheap and keep things simple. Some things, like LED lighting and decent VHF and GPS handhelds, mean that you can read in your bunk at night, know where you are and hear the weather with little cost in boat bucks. Others, like refrigeration or "entertainment centers" or pressure hot water, take time and money to maintain. But the beauty is that it's each owner's choice.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

UrroPlatz said:


> I am retiring in 2 years. At that time I would like to buy a 28-30 boat to take down to the Bahamas in the winter and keep here on the east coast in the summer. I am currently taking sailing lessons and hope to meet a few folks here locally to crew/sail with in the meantime.
> 
> Here's my real question. After reading this board and others I am starting to fear I am in over my head financially with this grand idea. I keep hearing about maintenance costs that just seem very high. I want to ask the experts about the real cost of ownership. I think I have the insurance and slip fee information I need. It is the maintenance part that has me concerned.
> 
> ...


Go for it... but buy as new as you can afford. I'm an 'alien', being British with a yacht (Beneteau 351) based in Greece, but I have what I consider to be relevant experience. I've kept my 1998-built boat in Greece since it came off charter (it was a good way to pay for her) in 2003, and have always had repairs and maintenance done by professionals. The advantage is that most professionals 'know' recent designs - and there is therefore competition for your business (= competitive pricing). Old boats need craftsmanship - which is available, but expensive.
Similarly, problems are relatively easy to categorise - and therefore obtain reliable quotations for - as opposed to the "well, we'll take a look, then quote you" approach of old-boat craftsmen.
As for 10% - 20%, where does that old wives' tale come from?
Don't get me wrong; I love old boats, but I wouldn't be able to afford to keep one in the manner to which it's entitled!


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

JustMe...for a Catalina 22 on a trailer you face VERY little annual maintenance since you don't even need bottom paint and there are no systems to worry about. As long as your rig and hull and sails are in good shape to begin with you can just worry about the outboard for a while!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks camaraderie, but if I kept in the water at Oriental or Belhaven or somewhere for March-Oct I assume that would increase the maintenance costs alot? (I realize I would then have to pay slip fees of course) I just know if I had to trailer it somewhere then I wouldn't use it nearly as much as if I could just drive a couple hours and hop in and away I go.


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## FrankLanger (Dec 27, 2005)

I had a 22 foot boat a few years ago before buying a larger boat. I used to budget about $500 per year in maintenance and insurance--new lines, bottom paint, wax, varnish, paint brushes, sandpaper, motor tune-up. It all adds up--some years were a bit more, most were around there or a bit less, not including slip fees and operating costs like fuel. Of course, if you have to replace the sails, that's a much larger "one time" expenditure.
I hope that helps.
Frank.


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## Bump (Aug 23, 2004)

*Maimtenance costs*

Let me say again. I have a 28 foot Mariner. I bought new basic crusing sails ( partial battens and one reef point on main) and a 135 genie for a total of $2800.00. They were custom made in the late spring in about two weeks from a very reputable local sailmaker. I got many quotes and all were within a few hundred dollars.My *standing rigging, lifelines (single) and bridge deck traveler* were replaced, professionally, for $2500.00. These items should last 10-12 years before needing replacement. I cruise not race and I think that makes a big difference in equipment and maintenance costs. Sailing is not cheep but a budget of 2-3500 annually is reasonable for a boat that has been brought up to snuff in its major systems. Buy a sound boat, invest in some upgrades and refits and have fun.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

You buy any boat, any year and you can expect to dump 10-15,000 in upgrades and repair, once you're over that hump, maintenace will be minor


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Bump said:


> Let me say again. I have a 28 foot Mariner. I bought new basic crusing sails ( partial battens and one reef point on main) and a 135 genie for a total of $2800.00. They were custom made in the late spring in about two weeks from a very reputable local sailmaker. I got many quotes and all were within a few hundred dollars.My *standing rigging, lifelines (single) and bridge deck traveler* were replaced, professionally, for $2500.00. These items should last 10-12 years before needing replacement. I cruise not race and I think that makes a big difference in equipment and maintenance costs. Sailing is not cheep but a budget of 2-3500 annually is reasonable for a boat that has been brought up to snuff in its major systems. Buy a sound boat, invest in some upgrades and refits and have fun.


Great point, having spent $5300.00 this year on sails and rigging, do you see yourself spending any way near $3500 on maintenance next year ? I see it as every 3 or 4 years you take a major "hit" like for sails. but the cost in the other 2 or 3 years can be rather minor like painting the bottom and touching up the teak.


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## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

JustMeUC said:


> Thanks camaraderie, but if I kept in the water at Oriental or Belhaven or somewhere for March-Oct I assume that would increase the maintenance costs alot? (I realize I would then have to pay slip fees of course) *I just know if I had to trailer it somewhere then I wouldn't use it nearly as much as if I could just drive a couple hours and hop in and away I go*.


  WoW!  
Two hours each way!! That's 4 hours travel time, what's left for sailing time! Enough to turn me right off. 
I have a trailerable and have tried slips and towing. There is but an extra 1/2 hour involved in the towing side for set-up. It still takes a while to get all your stuff out and get under way at a slip, it is really more perception of ease than what reality dictates. There is also a more relaxed attitude involved when getting ready to make way from a slip as opposed to the harried and rushed atmosphere of towing & launching. If I had to drive two hours each way that would confirm the decision to tow & launch for me, since I am committed to the travel anyway.
Since I live extremely close to the ocean the choice of slip or tow is but the flip of a coin, but I choose to slip for 2-3 months during peak season for the convenience of a cabin-on-the-water so to speak, especially when I take a 5 week stretch of vacation. I would be careful about assuming a slip would encourage more use when a two hour drive may prove discouraging, especially after driving it a few times.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Bump-
By example, Air Force's cheapest 130 genoa (135 isn't standard for that boat from them) is $1092 right now, base price. They go up to almost $2000 for a "blue water tri-radial" which is a step up in construction and durability both, their high end sail. $1720 for a "coastal" tri-radial. So, from a coastal cross-cut to a coastal tri-radial, you can almost double the cost of the sail. And again, that's before any windows, UV covers, whatever.
Mainsail? $840, $1305, $1443. Again, no frills.

I make that to be about $2000 for a basic sail set, $3500 for their better set, and note that those are actual quotes today--from a MIDRANGE loft. For many folks the only "local" loft is a top-name brand, ka-ching.

A lot of what a boat "costs" to operate, depends on how you want to operate it. One thing you can be fairly sure of, is that someone who is first getting into boating usually (not always, but usually) will not know all the options and shortcuts to saving on expenses. 

I'd rather sail with rags than not sail at all...but I'd sure rather sail with something better and more durable than just the basics, if I could.


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## Bump (Aug 23, 2004)

*Next year*

I have an older boat, 1979 Mariner. I have two budgets one for routine maintenance and another for refits and upgrades. I plan on having the 12 volt system rewired next year (cost ????) But regular maintenance, probably less than $1000.00. Bottom paint fix it stuff etc. I plan on keeping the boat for a good while so I try to do a major project or two each year to keep things up to par and safe.
My problem is "stuff" can't go to a boat show without someting to drag home. Also as a relative newbie I buy stuff I don't really need but that seems cool. Had a perfectly good rollup but had to have the new RIB I saw at the Providence RI show. Glad I did it but???


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

CaptKermie said:


> WoW!
> Two hours each way!! That's 4 hours travel time, what's left for sailing time! Enough to turn me right off.


Actually, it is probably closer to 3 hours from Raleigh to the coast. I would probably head down Friday night camp out in the boat Fri/Sat nights and have all day Saturday and a good part of the day Sunday for sailing before heading home... Not a big deal for me. I put about 5,000-6,000 miles a year on my car now going to dog trials most weekends so I am used to being on the roads a lot. Of course, if I get a boat next spring I have a feeling that this will be more or less the end of the dog trials.


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

I'll probably get booted off for saying this, so if you never hear from me again, remember me fondly. If you intend to kepp the boat for less then two years, your mantience cost should be about $50 to $100 a year. Sails can be repaired with duct tape ( lasts about three to six months ) Line can be replaced with poly from home depot. spun nylon is a little more but feels nicer on the hands. steches like a mother though. Stays can be repaired with bull dogs and galvie wire. Worst case is your outboard frying out. but lerning to sail on and off a dock is something you should try before the boat gets bigger. You can pick up a boat for less than the cost of new sails, spend two years beating the hell out of it. And sale it for about what you paid for it.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Somebody call security, we have a disturbance.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

JustMe...
If you keep it in salt water you will probably run $500 bucks a year on bottom paint and sandpaper! I had a Cat22 on a trailer once and was SOOOOO glad to get a slip after a year of trailering and mast stepping. Especially with your drive...that sounds like a good plan.


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

Danjarch, your Yacht club must be very tolerant.

Rick in Florida


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Rickm505 said:


> Danjarch, your Yacht club must be very tolerant.
> 
> Rick in Florida


You got to love it


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

my current boat is pretty nice. But I've had and/or built some interesting boats over the years.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Interesting would be one word to describe them... not the word I would use...but it is a word that you could use.


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## Muckabout (Jan 17, 2002)

I have owned three boats, a 16' Cape Cod Cat (wood), a 26' trailer sailor and a 27 Catalina. I didn't do all the work on all of them, I am not a mechanic and I had the motors worked on by mechanics. I did do the wood refinnishing, bottom cleaning painting and hull polishing myself. I did do some minor sail repair following instruction in a book. I learned to recaulk wood seams by asking those that did them worked out fine. I found after watching someone do a job that the next time I could do it myself with a little time and the right tools and materials. I don't think I spent over $2000 a year on maintenance usually a lot less. Then again I didn't buy a lot high tech toys either. I made sure the boat was kept up and in the off season protected. If you live aboard and around others who do the same you will pick up on the best and least costly ways of doing things. I was surprised at how much I could do myself and feeling of pride in accomplishment was worth the work and time. My relatives who are stinkpotters, don't see how I could afford a to enjoy a sailboat with so little money. Believe me the chilled Chablis tastes as good out of a cooler at sundown on my old Catalina as it does on the Gold Plater down the dock and the veiw is the same. Take your time own a smaller boat learn how to take care of her then move up when the time is right and look at each event as an oppurtunity to learn. One evening as the sun goes down and your sitting in the cockpit with your First Mate you'll smile and say this is just great glad I did it. 

Kay


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Well said Kay...


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## jackytdunaway (Sep 11, 2006)

I am with Sailing dog on that. Well said. When you learn to do it yourself not only do you enjoy the satisfaction of the acheivement but you gain a certain confidence that you can take care of things so you are not always worrying about what will break next. Then you start tweeking things that aren't broken and you get to a new level of enjoyment. though i have to say SD. i still gave up tryong to fiberglass that battery box for now. But not for good. i will try again.


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

SailingDog,

I bought my first boat when I was eighteen. A beutiful 9' snark, with a nearly new sail. It had, had an unfortunate accident envolving 2x4 fall from attic rafters. I took the two halves of my new styrofoam boat, 3 pieces of number 2 rebar and healthy amount of latex house caulk, and wa-la, sailing for only $58.75. I learned more basic sailing skills from that boat then I ever could have learned from a thousand sundays on this web site. I can tell by some of the posts on this site, that there are some well paid proffessionals who do alot of the posting, but I'll bet there are alot who don't have alot of money to spend. There is a big difference in the seaworthyness required to play in rough water, and whats required on the lakes and bays most of us are more likely to be on. 

P.S. The best captain I ever worked for, spent twelve hours crossing traverse bay on a 12' sailfish. He made $150.00 bucks for delivering it.
I also knew a fellow in Key West who had sailed a hobie cat down from Texas( He died trying to cross to mexico on the same boat, but he was fun to go drinking with.)


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## mputegnat (May 16, 2002)

*The Rule of All Thumbs*

I've owned an aged boat and I have owned a brand new boat. Now I tend to own boats inbetween.Here's why. 
Old boats. No one knows what these cost. An old boat is the only thing you can get free and not afford. You don't know all the abuse, the system nearing failure, the hidden weakness that gonna get you. And worse, you can never quite be comfortable that you are secure...UNLESS you have completely redone and refitted the thing yourself, which coincidentally is the same money you'll spend on a newer boat upfront.
NEW Boats. Same problem as a new car. The initial depreciation is in the time between opening your checkbook and signing the last letter of your name.
Newer Boat. Ah. The big hit has been taken and they have already had the explosion of enthusiasm that led to all those wonderful add ons done by the first owner. Usually little abuse, more reliable systems, much less to fix. Only the sails age in this group.

So about what's a reasonable way to have a predictable $3000/yr maint cost? Buy as new a boat that you can afford, buy it from the owner (no commission) and be patient to get your price. One way to get the newest for the money is to shop for a smaller boat. For your budget you could likely find a 2 year old 30 footer without too much trouble. You can buy a new Colgate 26 for $45k... a very fine boat. So your budget is fine.

As to the $3k for these? I don't think you'll spend more than that for the first four years. The big items per year are bottom paint and haul out. In year 5 you can think about new sails.

So I think you can do it.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

T37Chef,
I hate to burst your bubble, but my oldest boy just came home from his first year at college. Costs didn't go up so much because we taught em early "they pay smart kids to go to school" but what surprised me was the amount of time did not go down. However, things are still moving right along....maybe some day


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## PiperSon (Jun 21, 2007)

There are two ways to look at the cost of owning a boat. One is that you are going to treat it like a motor vehicle and put it in the junk yard when it wears out. The other is that after the initial depreciation in the first five years you try to maintain the value of the boat by keeping it in top condition. The majority of the boats on the market are in the first category and are typically sold to owners of lesser and lesser means. At 25-30 years old the cost of bringing the boat back (new engine, new rig, sails, electrical and plumbing systems, painting etc) vastly exceeds the potential value of the boat. The only exception would be if you can do all the work yourself and don't count your labor in the equation. If you maintain a boat to hold its value you will probably spend about 20% of the value annually. If it is a wood boat or has alot of brightwork it is closer to 30%. It isn't called yachting because it's affordable. You have to commit alot of time (labor) or money.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

One thing that may not have been mentioned yet is that your first year is probably going to be your biggest hit. After you buy the perfect boat, you will find all sorts of imperfections that made need to be fixed. Its just a matter of prioritizing and separating out what *needs* to be done and what you would *like* to do, repairs vs. upgrades. You can go really crazy spending if you want to.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Very well said BF.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> You can go really crazy spending if you want to.


And sometimes even if you don't want to but there is this evil little voice in your head that says stuff like "those sails are almost five years old now you know...probably stretched...couldn't hurt to get new ones..."


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

If you want to drive yourself crazy, take a fine indelible marker and carefully draw a one foot wide cross or square on the sail. Then remeasure it at the end of every season, to see just how far the cloth has distorted.<G>


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Go Go Go*

Urro,

Buy a stinking boat! Get the best one you can. Figure it out as you go. You will make dumb mistakes and spend more money than you expect to. But you will feel young again, and be excited every time you look at the sky and feel the breeze on your cheek. What a blast. Buy the &^%$&$ boat and go sailing!


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## Dcneuro (Nov 4, 2006)

*Old boat vs new boat*

A lot really depends on your likes and dislikes, and what you are planning to do with the boat. Newer boats, i.e. Catalinas, are largey synthetic: lots of fiberglass, aluminum and veneer. Older boats have lots of thick lush wood. As lush as this is, it does require maintenance. I would be concerned that if you scratched a veneer surface, refinishing it is not an option. Older boats tend to be full keel boats, which mean less leeway, especially in heavy weather. Newer Catalina type fin keel boats do not track well. And if you ground with the keel, you will likely have thousands in repairs whereas the full keel boat is much more forgiving. As far as that trip out in the pond, my money is on the old full keel boat. I would not like taking that trip on a Catalina. I currently own/sail a 1975 Bristol 32. She is very well miantained. She was very well maintained when I bought her. She is a solid full keel boat which I can take anywhere with confidence. Her current maintenance schedule certainly fits into the budget that you mention. You are wise for considering these things before your purchase I must say. Also, that Don Casey book mentioned in an earlier post is invaluzble to any sailboat owner.

Good luck.


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## primerate84 (Jun 14, 2006)

*This may have already been covered...*

...but as far as the cost of standing rigging, I just got a quote from Catalina Direct for my Cat 30 and the backstay to the split was $125.95, and the upper shrouds were $249.95 each.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

SailingRandy said:


> T37Chef,
> I hate to burst your bubble, but my oldest boy just came home from his first year at college. Costs didn't go up so much because we taught em early "they pay smart kids to go to school" but what surprised me was the amount of time did not go down. However, things are still moving right along....maybe some day


bubble burst...damn you 

I have come to a conclusion for the question of cost of ownership...if you have to ask you cant afford it.


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## 737sail (Apr 29, 2007)

*simple math....*

...I tell my children that, with everything you want/"need": triple the cost of it and triple the time it takes and, if "at the end of the day" you come in under that, be happy!

That may be extreme, but by embracing the "three times as much" rule I have found that I have relatively little frustration relative to the purchases and other undertakings I have applied it (the "3*" rule) to...

Now that I think about, the "three times" rule just makes me feel good about my decisions, keeps me from getting irritated with myself, as I can only tell myself "you made the choice KNOWING that, as with everything else, it would likely cost more/take more time....", AND, when I tell other people "no, it actually cost LESS/took less time than I anticipated", they just look at me in sheer amazement.

You can make as wise a choice as possible, supported by a lot of "research" and, no matter what, things will just not go as planned. So if you are "nervous" now, you may want to drop your up-front money (I, of course, would drop it by a third), plan to use it for your triple maintenance "floating budget" and, when you come in "under" you will be happy and when you hit the budget you will be happy, as well...

I am guessing that you will be able to get the boat you need and maintain it for that.


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