# Steel boat care



## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Oh look! I am the proud owner of a steel boat.

So from my understanding rust is your enemy.
I am looking for paint systems that will navigate the hazards of salt water as well as be easy to touch up but will not cost me an arm and a leg.

This is my understanding of the process. Please correct me if I am wrong or you can add any thing.

Step 1 Prep.
Remove all rust down to bare steel 
Steel brush and sand.
Use Rust remover (Some thing like Eastwood Gel Rust Dissolver)
Rinse with acetone to to clean the surface of grease 

Step 2
Pre-prime paint
POR-15 Rust Preventive Coating or Altex pre-prime 167
2 to 3 Coats,

Step 3
epoxy primer
Wattyl PR250
1 coat

Step 4
Top Coat
Wattyl Poly-U-400
2 coats

If any one has experience with steel. I would be much obliged for some advice.
Please let me know

The goal is off shore passage making.
We want tough, Not pretty.

Thanks.
~Sol

thecoastalpassage.com/rust-paint.html


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Congrats, Sol Tell about you and boat. Use small words so the glass guys can comprehend.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Bristol Channel Cutter
30'6” on deck, 10,2” beam, and 4'draft.

I would link a pic.
But I need more posts :wink

I am new to sailing but we all have to start some where.
Our family Plans on doing some cursing in a few years.
So I have lots to learn.

Any help would be fantastic.

A little a bout me.
What do I know a bout boats?..uhh Nothing.
But I did pass the Canadian boat license test. lol.

Did I bite off more then I can Chew .. Hell ya, Bring it on.
I am an avid Canoer and out door enthusiast, who loves solo camping and hiking in Killarney with the bears. 

We are a family of 4 with The usual set up, one dad, one mom, a feisty boy and a super cute girl.

I am not sure where we got it in out heads that sailing would be a good thing but it happened a bout 10 years ago.
So we scrimped all out pennies together and bought a boat.

So on to step 1. Learn to float.

Its nice meeting you guys and any help would be amazing.
And if we meet up in real life. There may be a cold beer in it for ya. I hear sailors like that sort of thing.

~Sol


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> Our family Plans on doing some cursing in a few years.
> 
> ~Sol


I suspect you'll be doing plenty of cursing... You bought a steel boat!


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

At the very least I can perch it on the rocks until high tide.


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## harmonic (Sep 10, 2013)

I have found wire brushes leave little flecks of steel everywhere which show up after you have painted the deck best to avoid them and never use an angle grinder unless you have isolated the area I knock off all the loose rust with a screwdriver and finish it off with a coarse nylon brush or sandpaper then I apply rust kill which converts the rust to a hard black paint,Then I use an epoxy paint to complete the system.If you keep on top of the rust you will have no issues.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

A chipping hammer is your very best friend, unless there is a lot of rust, then you will also need a mechanical (air or electric) needle chipper.
The most difficult places to get at are your most likely places to find serious rust. These include in the bow and stern, below the floors, behind the ceiling and under the decks. From the outside, the waterline is where you will have to keep a sharp lookout for pin holes. One tug I operated had sufficient pin holes at the water line that when the crew wanted a shower, all we had to do was stand under the spray from those pin holes in the engine room. lol
You might find it much easier and just as efficient to go low tech. Some of the best products like red lead have been outlawed, so zinc chromate is the primer today, I believe. Then use oil based paints not epoxies.
My suggestion for finding the best products in use today is to go bother the crews on tugs and commercial work boats in your area. They would also be able to point you to much cheaper suppliers than the yachting stores.
Chipping and painting should be on the kid's chore lists, as they can fit in areas where an adult would have trouble. A steelie is a family affair!
Good luck and I hope we see you out here soon.


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## SeaDubya (Sep 5, 2015)

+1 on the needle gun. It will remove the junk and not so much metal. A grinder, if used incorrectly, could remove more than you want.

Get a good one, not a cheap one, and extra needles if you are doing the whole boat. If pneumatic, it uses a LOT of air, so make sure you have the right compressor and tank for the job. Some work yards that have air may not work if the flow rate is not high enough. I'm inclined to tell you to not get an electric one, depending on how much work you have to do. The pneumatic one will last forever...electric are hit or miss on long-term life and YMMV. Either way...earplugs.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Best prep is a particle blaster. Heavily regulated in most countries and most yards will not allow it.

Pneumatic needle gun or electric next choice. Grinders encase small particles of rust so not ideal. 

Use any phosphoric acid based product to convert surface rust. Ospho is freely available.

2 coats of zinc rich epoxy primer plus two or more coats of regular epoxy primer.

Top coat of choice. 

But any paint is better than none so scrape of loose rust - ospho - any primer - any top coat. Repeat as required. 

I had a 25 year old steel boat for 7 yrs. I had the hull below the waterline sand blasted and painted down in Venezuela in 1992 for a very reasonable price. When I sold it at 32 it still looked good externally but there was significant rust internally. This is pretty common; steel boats die from the inside. 

Top Tip 1 Keep a couple of small bottles with small brushes inside handy. Ospho and primer. I you spot a chip attend to it right away, Top coat can wait.

Top Tip 2 If you need some major rust cutting out and new plate welded in, find a commercial fishing boat yard and ask around. There is almost certainly going to be a mobile welder around familiar with boat problems.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Welcome aboard! Just a hope you didn't get steel hulled just because you think it will do ok on rocks!


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

deniseO30 said:


> Welcome aboard! Just a hope you didn't get steel hulled just because you think it will do ok on rocks!


It was a joke 

We plan on doing some long distance traveling with children.

There where a few reasons for a steel.

Stability of a displacement hull.
Price point.
Repair costs.
Emergency repair costs.
Strength.
Ease of Modification.

The boat we got is all most new.

When things that go bump in the night. We like to have the piece of mind. that it will bend be for it breaks.

unless it is rusted out of course 

We wanted an off road 4 wheel jeep.
Not a Sedan or luxury 4 door If that makes any scenes.
we do not mind a slow trip.

There are many good boats out there and we spent a few years looking. Reading, looking some more and reading some more.
But after the survey. This looked like a good deal. But I am no expert by any means.
Took a bit of reading and a bit of gut feeling.
Which is hard for me As I am not a gut feeling kind of person.
My wife found it acceptable as well.

I think as we learn to take care of her she will be a good boat.
Big enough to circumnavigate If we can.
But small enough not to break our budget at the dock.

We do not plan to sail for ever. Just want a a go around. So if she get us there we will be happy.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Two years ago I blasted and repainted the bottom of our 33' cutter with lots of problems afterwards.

I've ended up sanding off and reprinting a lot of the bottom. Pretty discouraging.

I've done a lot of reading, conversed with a bunch of "experts" including 3 Ameron factory reps. All with no consensus.

From all of this what I believe to be the best path forward for a bottom job on a boat is...

Blast with a high abrasive material. The material should be clean, not have any salts or corrosives in it.

Wash with plain water, no need to do acetone wash (I did, you really don't want to)

Paint with a two part Ameron zinc epoxy. 

Hot coat with two coats of Ameron Bar Rust.

For interior and above water line skip the zinc.

Water tanks need a special epoxy paint.

GET THE 3M VENTILATORS FOR VOLITALES

For small touch up jobs where you don't want to mix epoxy we are trying some interlude (I think) aluminum paint we got at West Marine.

I have the various paint numbers if you need them, just not at hand.

No guarantees on any of this. There seems to be a lot of voodoo involved.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> There where a few reasons for a steel.
> Stability of a displacement hull.


You do know that because steel tends to produce a very heavy hull compared to other materials of equal strength, that steel boats tend to have high vertical centers of gravity, and so do not tend to have a lot of stability (especially relative to drag), and tend to have less comfortable motions as least as compared to more strength to weight efficient materials and methods.

Jus' saying,

In terms of painting steel to prevent corrosion, if you are dealing with small areas, use a small chipping hammer to loosen thick scale, wire brush or grind to 'white metal', wipe down with alcohol rather than water to avoid small areas of surface rust, prime with a zinc rich epoxy primer, paint with a good quality alkyd topcoat that is compatible with the primer.

When dealing with larger areas, blast with abrasive materials to 'white metal'. Wipe down with alcohol, prime with zinc rich epoxy primers, and paint with a good quality alkyd topcoat that is compatible with the primer.

In both cases, industrial products will work as well as marine products, but industrial topcoats do not have the UV protection of marine products and so will tend to fade more quickly than marine finishes. On the other hand they are cheaper and easier to apply so an occasional maintenance topcoat should not be a deal breaker.

Jeff


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

hpeer said:


> I have the various paint numbers if you need them, just not at hand.
> 
> No guarantees on any of this. There seems to be a lot of voodoo involved.


I appreciate the paint numbers if you have the time.

experienced voodoo is better then Regular voodoo!


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Jeff_H said:


> You do know that because steel tends to produce a very heavy hull compared to other materials of equal strength, that steel boats tend to have high vertical centers of gravity, and so do not tend to have a lot of stability (especially relative to drag), and tend to have less comfortable motions as least as compared to more strength to weight efficient materials and methods.
> 
> Jus' saying,


Thanks jeff. 
I came across quite a few articles regarding steel vs Fiber glass
There is an on going thread right now. 

soundingsonline.com/boat-shop/on-powerboats/156-is-the-displacement-hull-form-for-you

It was Articles like this that lead me to my decision.
If that help.

Thanks for the tips jeff
~Sol


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> Thanks jeff.
> I came across quite a few articles regarding steel vs Fiber glass
> There is an on going thread right now.
> 
> ...


 I hate to break it to you but pretty much all cruising sailboats are displacement boats. That article focuses on displacement powerboats vs. planning power boats, and contains little or no information that is relevant to sailboats.

While the weight of a boat (displacement) is a factor in a sail boat's stability, in and of itself, the weight of a boat is a comparatively minor factor as compared to weight distribution, and displacement distribution.

The point being that the problem with steel boats is that they carry their weight very high in the boat resulting in comparatively little stability for their weight.

It's a two part problem, the hull of a steel boat is disproportionately heavy and the majority of that excess weight is above the waterline. Adding to that is that the heavy hull weight leaves less excess carrying capacity to be split between the needed parts of the boat, stores and other consumables, and ballast. But this higher weight requires bigger engines, heavier gear and so on. That leaves less for supplies and ballast, which usually means that steel boats are usually low on ballast.

That is the simple physics of the matter.

Jeff


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Jeff_H said:


> I hate to break it to you but pretty much all cruising sailboats are displacement boats. That article focuses on displacement powerboats vs. planning power boats, and contains little or no information that is relevant to sailboats.
> 
> While the weight of a boat (displacement) is a factor in a sail boat's stability, in and of itself, the weight of a boat is a comparatively minor factor as compared to weight distribution, and displacement distribution.
> 
> ...


I get the feeling you do not like steel or my nescience. 

sailboatlistings.com/view/52164
2014 Bristol Channel Cutter

Here is the boat. your feed back would be appreciated.

Thanks
~Sol


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> Oh look! I am the proud owner of a steel boat.
> 
> So from my understanding rust is your enemy.
> I am looking for paint systems that will navigate the hazards of salt water as well as be easy to touch up but will not cost me an arm and a leg.
> ...


While grinding and rust converter work for a short time ,nothing gives you long term maintenance free cruising like sand blasting. We recently rented a 5 HP compressor and blasted with beach sand. It went quickly and easily. 
Wasser makes some of the best and most affordable urethane tar based paints we have found, Wasser tar and Wasser zinc.
I have been maintaining my 31 footer for 31 years, on an hour or two at year average, maintenance time, per year.More to come. Being called for supper. Smells great.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Well... you've bought the boat already, yes?? So trying to talk you out of it seems a waste of bandwidth...

Took a look at the pics.. no apparent rust issues at this point, but on the face of it there seems to be some work required. The exposed insulation material looks a bit marginal to me, but a bigger issue is the still-exposed framing of the cabin house.. Seems to me that they will be sweating condensation leading to constant drips below when it gets cold out.. I'd also want to ensure that the hull proper has been effectively insulated.

She ain't pretty (to my eye - too many straight/vertical edges, hard corners etc) but she's yours. Good luck to you.

And I see Brent Swain is back for the moment.. here's a thread that he can make a positive contribution to...


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Launch, get south before the cold sets in. Learn stuff on the way. Always wear life jackets on deck and helmets below (scalp protection) Rust will happen .So?


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Faster said:


> Well... you've bought the boat already, yes?? So trying to talk you out of it seems a waste of bandwidth...
> 
> Took a look at the pics.. no apparent rust issues at this point, but on the face of it there seems to be some work required. The exposed insulation material looks a bit marginal to me, but a bigger issue is the still-exposed framing of the cabin house.. Seems to me that they will be sweating condensation leading to constant drips below when it gets cold out.. I'd also want to ensure that the hull proper has been effectively insulated.
> 
> ...


Thank you.

We had a survey done. It came out well to my eyes.
There are a few things the survey said needs to be done.

With some hard work and a little advice. I am sure I can get her ship shape.

As the song goes
You cant all ways get what you want but if you try some times, you can get your self a mild financial set back. 

So from the picks your recommendation is to shore up the insulation.

any recommendations?

Basically the plan is this.

We are at the end of our Budget for the year.
We have storage and insurance covered for the next year.
We will have more resources to devote to her after December.

We Just need to get her to the point where she can sit there for a few months safely.

So we can start over hauling the systems that need work.

We do not want pretty, we want functional.
I have seen people float around in tubs in way worse shape then my bucket.

I will post more pictures after our next visit.
If any thing catches your eye as a must do please let me know.

and any feed back is greatly appreciated.

Cheers
~Sol.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Brent Swain said:


> While grinding and rust converter work for a short time ,nothing gives you long term maintenance free cruising like sand blasting. We recently rented a 5 HP compressor and blasted with beach sand. It went quickly and easily.
> Wasser makes some of the best and most affordable urethane tar based paints we have found, Wasser tar and Wasser zinc.
> I have been maintaining my 31 footer for 31 years, on an hour or two at year average, maintenance time, per year.More to come Being called for supper. Smells great.


Where do you purchase. 
Wasser tar and Wasser zinc

Thanks
~Sol


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> Bristol Channel Cutter
> 30'6" on deck, 10,2" beam, and 4'draft.
> 
> A little a bout me.
> ...





SOLPHIAIR said:


> We plan on doing some long distance traveling with children.
> 
> There where a few reasons for a steel.
> 
> ...





SOLPHIAIR said:


> I get the feeling you do not like steel or my nescience.


I do not mean to sound disapproving of your current knowledge. We all had to start somewhere and we all learned as we went. To me there is nothing wrong with being at the beginning of the learning cycle, as long as you are also willing to learn.

It really is not a matter of whether I like steel or not. I think that there are designs for which steel may be the right material. It is more that I understand the science behind the various materials and methods of building a boat, and as I read the portions of your posts that are quoted above, I was concerned because you are making assumptions, which do not necessarily match the science, and which could get that one dad, one mom, a feisty boy and a super cute girl into serious trouble. You said, "Its nice meeting you guys and any help would be amazing." My comments were merely intended to be helpful by pointing out things that your posts suggest that did not know that you did not know.

When I worked for yacht designer Charlie Wittholz, quite a few of the projects I worked on were steel boats of a broad range of sizes and types. One of the most enlightening exercises was the work updating the Departure 35 and developing a steel version. The Departure had begun life as hard chine, cedar strip planking (with Philippine Mahogany was an option) over oak frame construction ketch with a full keel in the 1950's that was professionally built by a number of yards, but most were built by Dickerson in Maryland.

Charlie updated the design in the late 1970's for amateur construction switching to a glass over plywood skin. When I worked for him, he was again updating the design to a steel hull and a cutter rig. We also had prepared an updated version of with a long fin keel and transom mounted skeg hung rudder.

What was revealing to me was that Charlie designed all three versions to the same strength and safety margins in bending and sheer, the two forces that a boat is most likely to experience either in normal sailing, or when things go wrong. He used the same formulas and so on, including the recommended compensations for the fact that plywood is not equally strong in all directions.

Of the three, the hull and deck of the steel boat was dramatically heavier, (well over 50% heavier) to achieve the equal strength. To compensate for that excess weight in the hull and deck, the displacement of the steel version was 1,200 lbs heavier than the plywood version, and If I remember correctly had had nearly a 1,000 lbs less ballast.

My reason for pointing this out was your comment that you chose a steel hulled boat in part because of the "Stability of a displacement hull." when in fact, a steel hulled boat will generally offer less stability. I don't want you to assume that you have more stability than you really do, since that is likely to give your more confidence than probably warranted.

Looking at the design, it is a very loose interpretation of a Bristol Channel Cutter. It would be hard to speculate accurately about how she would sail, or handle heavy weather without a lot more information about her rig, displacement, ballasting and so on. Looking at the images of the hullform, she looks like she would tend to roll a lot, and not go to weather very well. She would probably be a decent boat for the Great Lakes and nothern West Coast of North America, but realistically not a great choice for a circumnavigation for a family of four.

She also does not appear to be a particularly good platform to learn to sail, or learn seamanship on. The nice thing is that you bought her pretty reasonably and if she does not work out, you should be able to sell her and get something that does work better for your needs. Of course, the reality is that we all have our own tastes and needs, so you may be able to make her work for yours.

Jeff


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Jeff_H said:


> so you may be able to make her work for yours.
> 
> Jeff


Thanks Jeff. I appreciate the feed back.

If you have more insights as we go a long please add them.
we need to hear the good the bad and the ugly 

~Sol


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## SeaDubya (Sep 5, 2015)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> There where a few reasons for a steel.
> 
> Stability of a displacement hull.
> Price point.
> ...


And you always win at bumper boats in the anchorage...


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## capt jgwinks (Sep 24, 2013)

Roger on the bumper boats. But make sure you've got good liability insurance. The other folks won't like losing.

On my commercial boats we use Brightside for the top coat. Ones a dinner boat, the others are university research boats so they have to look good. We've had very good luck with that and it touches up well. I wouldn't recommend a two part here as you can't easily do touch ups. 

The other posters have covered the prep very well. Needle gun, Ospho, and zinc primer. We rent a big compressor when we need to needle gun. We don't do it that often and the compressor on the boat can't handle it.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> Where do you purchase.
> Wasser tar and Wasser zinc
> 
> Thanks
> ~Sol


General Paints sells it on Vancouver Island. Elsewhere you can check online for retailers.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

hpeer said:


> For interior and above water line skip the zinc.
> 
> Water tanks need a special epoxy paint.
> 
> For small touch up jobs where you don't want to mix epoxy we are trying some interlude (I think) aluminum paint we got at West Marine.


The zinc is far more important above the waterline and inside. If you chip the epoxy , the zinc will protect it for a while, until you get a chance to repair the ding. Zinc primer doesn't chip. Skimping on paint inside is why steel boats get a bad reputation for corroding from the inside out. They just don't bother to paint the inside properly ,then fail to make the connection between inside corrosion, and lack of paint inside. (Duuuhhh!!!) If you screw up outside, it can be rectified relatively easily. Not so easy inside, so make lots of inside paint a priority.
Below the waterline, your welded on zincs will protect you, as long as they are kept up. I have had bare steel below the waterline, which has been bare for decades, with no corrosion . Not so inside ,or above the waterline.
Nothing likes to stick to aluminium paint particularly well. 
Oil based paints are relatively useless in preventing corrosion. People who try to rely on them , instead of epoxies and urethanes, have far more maintenance problems.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Jeff_H said:


> You do know that because steel tends to produce a very heavy hull compared to other materials of equal strength, that steel boats tend to have high vertical centers of gravity, and so do not tend to have a lot of stability (especially relative to drag), and tend to have less comfortable motions as least as compared to more strength to weight efficient materials and methods.
> 
> In both cases, industrial products will work as well as marine products, but industrial topcoats do not have the UV protection of marine products and so will tend to fade more quickly than marine finishes. On the other hand they are cheaper and easier to apply so an occasional maintenance topcoat should not be a deal breaker.
> 
> Jeff


More weight up top means a far more comfortable motion than a lightweight , beamy , deep draft leadmine. The resulting motion is a lot less snappy. You get a more comfortable, slower roll instead.Stability curves for a well designed steel boat are quite similar to that of most older stock plastic boats. Deck and cabin shape ,and beam have as much to do with ultimate stability as ballast ratio. A beach ball with a 5% ballast ratio has more ultimate stability that a raft with a 70% ballast ratio. Hull shape has as more to do with initial stability than ballast ratio.
None of my clients has had any complaints about lack of stability.
I once replaced a soggy wooden cabin top on a Gazelle, which Colvin designed in, to reduce weight up top, with aluminium ,which was far lighter and far less maintenance.
Sail area to displacement ratio has more to do with speed that displacement alone. Bristol channel cutters have lots of sail.
Several of my 36 footers have sailed from BC to Hawaii in a couple of weeks , definitely not slow.
To avoid UV damage to epoxy, I use an oil based topcoat over wet epoxy. It wont stick all that well , if you let the last coat of the epoxy dry first. You can use any epoxy for your buildup, preferably many coats, the more the better..


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Jeff_H said:


> Adding to that is that the heavy hull weight leaves less excess carrying capacity to be split between the needed parts of the boat, stores and other consumables, and ballast. But this higher weight requires bigger engines, heavier gear and so on. That leaves less for supplies and ballast, which usually means that steel boats are usually low on ballast.
> 
> That is the simple physics of the matter.
> 
> Jeff


Adding 1,000 lbs of gear to a 20,000 lb boat is a far smaller percentage increase in overall weight ,than adding the same 1,000 lbs to a 10,000 lb boat. Most of available storage is below the waterline.
That is the simple physics of the matter.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Faster said:


> Well... you've bought the boat already, yes?? So trying to talk you out of it seems a waste of bandwidth...
> 
> Took a look at the pics.. no apparent rust issues at this point, but on the face of it there seems to be some work required. The exposed insulation material looks a bit marginal to me, but a bigger issue is the still-exposed framing of the cabin house.. Seems to me that they will be sweating condensation leading to constant drips below when it gets cold out.. I'd also want to ensure that the hull proper has been effectively insulated.
> 
> ...


Been out cruising, hunting, fishing , etc. Good sailing here this fall, with lots of wind ,a rarity here in BC.

I have made a positive contribution to all posts I have responded to.
Almost all my critics on other posts have been people who have never owned a steel boat , never built or maintained long term any steel boat, many who have never cruised long term, and certainly none who have cruised , lived aboard or built steel boats any where near as long as I have ,saying that, that which has worked well for me and my clients over 40 years "Wont work!"

Once you have a good buildup of epoxy inside, spray foaming is one of the best things you can do to make a boat liveable, especially in cold climates. There are no reasonable alternatives. I find that spray foaming down to the floor boars works best. You don't want foam in the bilge. Insulating the undersides of the floor boards reduces condensation in the bilge by over 80%, as does putting a carpet down in winter. I prefer both.Then you will have almost zero condensation.
Friends who have done this, tell me that their boat is the most comfortable home they have ever lived in, and they have owned houses. If your steel boat is not that comfortable, you are doing something wrong. It can be.
I hear Home Hardware has kits for spray foaming, which comes with two propane like tanks of ingredients, plus hardware needed.. Friends say they found them easy to use.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

el


Jeff_H said:


> o learn.
> I was concerned because you are making assumptions, which do not necessarily match the science, and which could get that one dad, one mom, a feisty boy and a super cute girl into serious trouble. You said, "Its nice meeting you guys and any help would be amazing." My comments were merely intended to be helpful by pointing out things that your posts suggest that did not know that you did not know.
> 
> One of the most enlightening exercises was the work updating the Departure 35 and developing a steel version. The Departure had begun life as hard chine, cedar strip planking (with Philippine Mahogany was an option) over oak frame construction ketch with a full keel in the 1950's that was professionally built by a number of yards, but most were built by Dickerson in Maryland.
> ...


The Seavin family was just one such family who would probably all still be alive, had they chosen a steel hull. Believing that a plywood hull would have had a better chance of surviving the collision with a freighter which they encountered, is living in a fantasy world. If your calculations say so ,then they are obviously very wrong. Steel has many times the strength to weight ratio of wood. There is no wood fastening which comes even remotely close to the strength and endurance of welding.

I have always liked the Departure designs. A long fin keel with a skeg hung outboard rudder would be a huge improvement, and would bring them much closer to my 36 ft design. I originally designed her with a full length keel, then quickly made her more practical, with a long fin and skeg hung rudder, eliminating over 300 lbs of steel weight in the stern, and also eliminating a hard to access and maintain ,nightmare area..
I still don't understand why he went for such flimsy ,3/4 inch rudder gudgeon pins?
More camber on the cabin top, instead of such high cabin sides would be easier to avoid distortion on, and would look a whole lot better.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Bristol Channel Cutter in steel? Is it this boat by any chance? 2014 Bristol Channel Cutter sailboat for sale in


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

krisscross said:


> Bristol Channel Cutter in steel? Is it this boat by any chance? 2014 Bristol Channel Cutter sailboat for sale in


Nice lifelines!


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Yes, looks like a very solid boat. I like the solid railing too. Not a bad price for this boat.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

krisscross said:


> Bristol Channel Cutter in steel? Is it this boat by any chance? 2014 Bristol Channel Cutter sailboat for sale in


Yes that is it.
Care to comment on what you see?

Thanks 
~Sol


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> Yes that is it.
> Care to comment on what you see?
> 
> Thanks
> ~Sol


I like it a lot - for a purpose this boat was intended: long distance cruising. It is not a boat for a casual sailing, as it will be slow and a total dog in lighter winds. From pictures it seems well made and in good shape. 
As to maintenance, on top of what others have said: If you learn how to weld and get some basic welding gear, you can fix just about anything on a steel boat. Once you have a thin spot, you have to weld a reinforcement patch or an extra weld. That can be expensive if you get others to do it.


----------



## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

krisscross said:


> I like it a lot - for a purpose this boat was intended: long distance cruising. It is not a boat for a casual sailing, as it will be slow and a total dog in lighter winds. From pictures it seems well made and in good shape.
> As to maintenance, on top of what others have said: If you learn how to weld and get some basic welding gear, you can fix just about anything on a steel boat. Once you have a thin spot, you have to weld a reinforcement patch or an extra weld. That can be expensive if you get others to do it.


There is a lot work to be done on here that is for sure.

We need to add a Escape bow hatch, So we need to have a hole cut in the deck. 
Right now she is a one way death trap.

Would also be nice to wield the clip points to her for safety harness tethers.
Have the cradle for the life raft wielded to the deck as well as zincs to the rudder.
and proper winches installed

We have 2 giant zincs ones on the port and starboard. I am not sure if these are the correct coverage.

The Modification from the survey all need to be implemented. One of which is rewiring the boat to meet trans-canada standards. 

And re finish the interior.

We want to keep her simple. The less electronics the better.

So I have a lot to learn.
Thank you a tun for the help.

We could really use and advisor or consultant.
So any one who wants to make couple of bucks as we go threw each project. Please let me know.

You guys have been a tun of help all ready and I am very appreciative.

Thanks
~Sol


----------



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I would re-think the forward hatch idea. In heavy weather these are a huge liability, IMO far outweighing the second exit benefits. But it is all about trade-offs. 
You can message this steel boat captain I found to be very knowledgeable and helpful: SailNet Community - View Profile: hpeer Very practical, no-nonsense kind of advice.


----------



## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

As a new sailor, and particularly a sailor who anticipates extended cruising, with his family, you have a lot to learn. 

I don't get the point of increasing the learning curve, and throwing additional risk and uncertainty into the mix by choosing a boat that's far out of the norm in both it's construction material and it's design. 

Did you do a sea trial with the boat? You said you were satisfied with the survey, but did the buying process include running the boat under power or sail? That would be an extremely important part of the process for a newbie, particularly because who knows whether the design of your vessel is proper. It could be a real mess. It could be a real gem (less likely), but you don't know. 

If we were friends, I would ask you why the hell you didn't call me. Then I would tell you to sell this thing and start over. 

The overall tone of your posts on this vessel have been, here I am, here's my boat, come hell or high water this'll work, give me some input guys, I'll take the advice that allows me to continue on my current path, and ignore the rest. I'm not smelling success here. Not saying it's not possible, but if success were my goal, it's not the path I would follow. 

By the way, I'm 61, started boating at 2 weeks, and have 40 years experience sailing. 

There are people with similar or greater experience who have already done their best to help you alter your course.

Regarding Brent Swain, he's not mainstream. That could be good or it could be bad. There has been an ongoing feud played out on this forum between Swain, and a mainstream designer, Bob Perry. Perry's not only mainstream, he's one of the greats of modern sailboat design, and we're lucky he's a regular contributor on this forum. I've followed the feud dispassionately, and have made my own conclusions. If I wanted solid advice, Perry would be my go to guy. 

Welcome to sailing. A terrific sport/lifestyle. Sell that thing. That's the advice I'd give a friend.


----------



## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

krisscross said:


> I like it a lot - for a purpose this boat was intended: long distance cruising. It is not a boat for a casual sailing, as it will be slow and a total dog in lighter winds. From pictures it seems well made and in good shape.
> As to maintenance, on top of what others have said: If you learn how to weld and get some basic welding gear, you can fix just about anything on a steel boat. Once you have a thin spot, you have to weld a reinforcement patch or an extra weld. That can be expensive if you get others to do it.


I use a 100 amp alternator ,driven from a 10 inch V belt pulley on my main engine , for the smoothest DC welder I have ever used.
A 50 watt 12 volt halogen bulb in the feed line from my starting battery to the field keeps the amperage there down ,to avoid frying the field windings. I have a toggle switch on this so I can turn the filed off when not welding. The throttle gives me amperage control. A 120 volt 60 watt bulb on the output lets the diodes last longer, altho I have external diodes in an aluminium heat sink when the one s n the alternator eventually fry. I have built everything from anchor winches to wood stoves to self steering with this rig, in my cockpit while swinging at anchor. It also powers my power tools. I have earned a few bucks with it as well.


----------



## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Siamese said:


> There are people with similar or greater experience who have already done their best to help you alter your course.
> 
> Regarding Brent Swain, he's not mainstream. That could be good or it could be bad. There has been an ongoing feud played out on this forum between Swain, and a mainstream designer, Bob Perry. Perry's not only mainstream, he's one of the greats of modern sailboat design, and we're lucky he's a regular contributor on this forum. I've followed the feud dispassionately, and have made my own conclusions. If I wanted solid advice, Perry would be my go to guy.
> 
> Welcome to sailing. A terrific sport/lifestyle. Sell that thing. That's the advice I'd give a friend.


Mainstream gets you mainstream advice which will keep you on the mainstream ( treadmill) for a long time just as it usually does for most main streamers, and likewise, a very expensive, complex and money consuming boat, leaving little time left over for actually cruising . (As is the case for most of their victims,who get mainstream advice from those who have huge personal financial stake in keeping you working, and paying them.)
Mainstream is knee high ,plastic coated, fragile lifelines ( trip wires) who's only function is to make sure you hit the water head first ,in your mainstream, bright yellow boots, so coloured so people can see your feet when you are up to your neck in sea water. Mainstream is fragile, bendy bow rollers which wont keep a rode in them when beam to the wind, and won't survive an anchor under a rock in a swell. Main stream is a convoluted, leaky contraption of a sliding hatch, which is impossible to get fully watertight. Main stream is bow cleats so fragile that you have to spread the load to as many as possible in a gale. Main stream is always putting decorativeness and stylishness over strength, function, reliability and seaworthiness.
Main stream is steering which gives the helmsman zero real protection from the elements.
Mainstream is boats so fragile that they cant survive a severe grounding or pounding, or collisions with floating debris.
I'm very proud to not be "mainstream!" 
You mention the importance of experience. I agree.
[Edited]
I have nearly 40 years of hands on steel boat building, steel boat live aboard, steel boat maintenance, and mostly full time steel boat cruising experience ,as well as many Pacific crossings under my belt. I have built over three dozen steel boats with my own hands, for very happy clients.
[Edited]
So which do you consider the most valuable, and reliable experience?
That boat looks a good choice for offshore cruising. A bit small for such a large crew, but far better than too big.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Siamese said:


> As a new sailor, and particularly a sailor who anticipates extended cruising, with his family, you have a lot to learn.
> 
> I don't get the point of increasing the learning curve, and throwing additional risk and uncertainty into the mix by choosing a boat that's far out of the norm in both it's construction material and it's design.
> 
> ...


I completely understand.
You are 100% correct in that I am not ready.

The family will not set foot on the boat unless or until it is sound.
If you would like to see the survey I can send it a long.
I would love the input of a seasoned sailor.

The learning curve is high because, I am young, stupid, and full of piss 

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.~Mark Twain

A lot can be done with hard work and the right attitude.

For me the point of this project is to learn a system 100% threw and threw and the best way to learn is time and access and some stress(Motivation).

The boat is on the hard and will stay on the hard until we are ready.
it may be a while 

You are 100% correct in that she may be the wrong rig. When I come to that conclusion she will become scrap metal.
And I will have lost some money. That is OK. People learn from both successes and failures.

I expect this project to have both.
I think I will have some fun while doing this.

There was no sea trail. If you would like to help me find out if this is good or not, lets do it. (When I am ready)

Plans change as new information comes in.
We may never make it past the doc.
But we will have fun doing it.
At the very least I have a place to fish.

~Sol

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-29...settle-Saga-cruise-ancient-mariner-ideas.html






Litany Against Fear!

"I will not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Brent Swain said:


> Mainstream gets you mainstream advice which will keep you on the mainstream ( treadmill) for a long time just as it usually does for most main streamers, and likewise, a very expensive, complex and money consuming boat, leaving little time left over for actually cruising . (As is the case for most of their victims,who get mainstream advice from those who have huge personal financial stake in keeping you working, and paying them.)
> You mention the importance of experience. I agree.
> [Edit]
> I have nearly 40 years of hands on steel boat building, steel boat live aboard, steel boat maintenance, and mostly full time steel boat cruising experience ,as well as many Pacific crossings under my belt. I have built over three dozen steel boats with my own hands, for very happy clients.
> ...


Thanks Brent
Would you care to look at the survey and give me your opinion?

~Sol


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Choosing to be irrational if a valid choice. Best of luck.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Siamese said:


> Choosing to be irrational if a valid choice. Best of luck.





Siamese said:


> Choosing to be irrational if a valid choice. Best of luck.


Would you like the see the survey? or Just kinda log on call me an irrational and move on?

It Is not like, I did not read your post and listen to you.
I did read it and I did listen to you.
I agree with some of your points.
and I echo your concern of be careful. 
I understand I am an amateur. 
I do not place the same connotation on that word that you might.

Amateur. a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons.

Slow and steady wins the race.
Next year 2016 We have Sailing lessons. (In a boat that is not ours )
Year after that 2017 Blue water sailing lessons. (In a boat that is not ours )

How a bout I get the boat in the water once be for I turn in to 
in a scrap Heep.

Would you consider it irrational to put it on the lake Float around and fish?

If I had of bought a rusted out RV would we still be having this conversation?

Ok let me rephrase my Goal.
I bought a boat. How do I get it in the water and have some fun? 
It's a steel boat.

I like to fish.
I like to camp.
I like to hike.
I am an avid out doors man.
I like to fix things.
I am a minimalist.

Would you care to add some thing from your many years experience about the best way to start out?

I value your input.

~SOL


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## harmonic (Sep 10, 2013)

I have been involved with steel boats since I was a kid my dad built one and we have sailed tens of thousands of miles in them,your one looks like a real battle ship, in a good way.She will be a great learner boat very forgiving and looks safe as houses.Just keep the rust under control and she will last forever.Good luck with her enjoy your sailing.


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## Mr. Bubs (Aug 21, 2013)

Brent Swain said:


> I use a 100 amp alternator ,driven from a 10 inch V belt pulley on my main engine , for the smoothest DC welder I have ever used.
> A 50 watt 12 volt halogen bulb in the feed line from my starting battery to the field keeps the amperage there down ,to avoid frying the field windings. I have a toggle switch on this so I can turn the filed off when not welding. The throttle gives me amperage control. A 120 volt 60 watt bulb on the output lets the diodes last longer, altho I have external diodes in an aluminium heat sink when the one s n the alternator eventually fry. I have built everything from anchor winches to wood stoves to self steering with this rig, in my cockpit while swinging at anchor. It also powers my power tools. I have earned a few bucks with it as well.


That is the most Rube Goldberg thing I have ever heard of. Why not just buy a damn welder?


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Mr. Bubs said:


> That is the most Rube Goldberg thing I have ever heard of. Why not just buy a damn welder?


I have done a fair bit of welding. Much of it using absolutely top of the range gear.

I have also done some using a similar system to the one described by Brent Swain. It worked extremely well and did the job when we had no access to shore power. NB DC welding is often superior in both penetration and producing a smooth bead when compared to AC welding.

Inexpensive stick welders are always AC.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> Thanks Brent
> Would you care to look at the survey and give me your opinion?
> 
> ~Sol


I'd be happy to. Where would I find it .


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Brent Swain said:


> I'd be happy to. Where would I find it .


Do you have a Private E mail?
I will send it over.

~Sol


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Mr. Bubs said:


> That is the most Rube Goldberg thing I have ever heard of. Why not just buy a damn welder?


The key words here are "Why not just buy."
Apply that to everything on a boat, and you truly join the mainstream, going to work everyday fighting traffic both ways , for decades while us "Rube Goldberg "types go sailing , hunting, fishing and wake up whenever we feel like it and for the most part ,doing whatever we please, any time , something I have been doing since my mid 20s.

What you are suggesting ,basically, is "Be normal."

"Normal" is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work, and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need, to pay for the the clothes and the car, and the house you leave vacant all day, so you can afford to live in it.
(Ellen Goodman)

Sure glad I'm not "Normal!"

All commercially sold fully portable welders are large, bulky,heavy, finicky, complex and extremely expensive.
Mine is the size of the alternator and couple of light bulbs, cost me under $30 dollars from the auto wreckers, and is the best DC welder I have ever used.


----------



## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> Do you have a Private E mail?
> I will send it over.
> 
> ~Sol


brentswain38 AT yahoo.ca
is my email address.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Brent Swain said:


> Bob Perry's...experience is mainly in largely unchallenged self promotion, and plastic boats, drawing pictures of them , not living aboard, nor building, nor maintaining, nor cruising in one.
> I have nearly 40 years of hands on steel boat building, steel boat live aboard, steel boat maintenance, and mostly full time steel boat cruising experience ,as well as many Pacific crossings under my belt. I have built over three dozen steel boats with my own hands, for very happy clients.


For the most part - I really don't care what you say Brent...at least when it's subjective. But stuff like this is just pure lying - and that is abundantly evident.

The promotion of Bob Perry comes through magazines, and books, and awards, and publicity around his decades of work - all given him _BY OTHERS_.

Your promotion comes from you. Period. It is self-promotion at its very core. And, like you say, it should be challenged when it's dishonest.

So you have all this exactly backwards.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> Litany Against Fear!
> 
> "I will not fear.
> Fear is the mind-killer.
> ...


If this is the case, then don't run down Brent's list of why one needs a steel boat.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Brent Swain said:


> ...
> His experience is mainly in largely unchallenged self promotion,...


Brent, considering your signature and mention of your business in reply to anything remotely concerning steel, I think I'd not go there.


----------



## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

And, gentlemen, let's stay on topic please without turning this into yet another Brent vs. Bob thread.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

The goal is sailing.

Thank you all for your input and expertise.

~Sol


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

smackdaddy said:


> If this is the case, then don't run down Brent's list of why one needs a steel boat.


I bought a steely before this forum.
My decision are my own and I plan to sink or swim by them.

We all have some thing to contribute.

Do you have any suggestions for handling rust on a steel boat.
Any tips or tricks you can pass a long?

I am looking for an easy to maintain system.
That will keep my tub in working order.
Would you like to look at the survey as well?
Please pass a long your private email.

Consensus in the sailing appears to be a rare thing 

If you have concerns with Mr. Swain. That's ok. Please start another thread or contact him privately.

If you are here to offer a novice sailor some sound advice. Come on in friend. Let me here what I can do better.

There will all ways be disagreements. Let us never take out eyes of the prize.

~Sol


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> ...
> If you have concerns with Mr. Swain. That's ok. Please start another thread ...
> ~Sol


Noooooooooooo!!!


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

DRFerron said:


> Noooooooooooo!!!


what are you, Darth Vader? lol


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> I bought a steely before this forum.
> My decision are my own and I plan to sink or swim by them.
> 
> We all have some thing to contribute.
> ...


Sure. The few steel bits I have on my boat require a thick coat of epoxy/paint to start with, then a close eye and ongoing maintenance to keep the rust at bay. I think pretty much everyone who has steel in their life knows that this is what it takes.

Brent himself has said many times that when it comes to a steel boat, the key to managing rust is to prep and finish it properly _during the build_ (especially the interior) - that is prep and cleaning of the steel, then LOTS of epoxy over that clean finish - especially in areas of the boat that are hard to get to (areas covered by the interior build-out, etc.). He's also said many times that the hull interior should be covered by spray foam, but to keep the foam above the bilge so it won't wick water and make things worse, etc. As he has said, boats tend to rust from the inside-out. All good advice as far as I'm concerned.

But, from Brent's perspective, I'd say the biggest worry _you_ have in this regard (since your boat is pretty much finished out) - is how carefully and thoroughly the builder prepped/primed that steel and how thickly he coated the interior of the hull with the epoxy. And if that job wasn't done really well - how much work it will require to do it right now. Do you really know what you've bought in this regard?

Basically, you need a quality, protective plastic shell around that steel. Hopefully you've got one.

As the article you linked to in your very first post says:



> "It's the Preparation Stupid!"


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

smackdaddy said:


> Basically, you need a quality, protective plastic shell around that steel. Hopefully you've got one.
> 
> As the article you linked to in your very first post says:


Thanks.

We are heading up this weekend.
So I am going to grab lots of photos.
For ref.

We under stood that some parts may need to be torn out.
We where not happy with the Head 
and there where some parts where we thought the Space could be used better.

If It requires us to tear out the whole thing to put down some more paint we are prepared to do that.

Let me grab the photos and you can tell me if you see trouble.

~SOL


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Basically, you need a quality, protective plastic shell around that steel.


That's what I've got with my boat - except no steel.:laugh


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Versi-Foam® Products
Spray Foam for Marine Flotation I Spray Foam Insulation I Versi-Foam Systems

Closed cell Foam.
Is this stuff any good?

Any recommendations for closed cell foam.

Thanks
~Sol


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Winter Boat Cover fabric features high strength, dimensional stability,
Will this stuff last a few winters?

OR

Should I go with heavy canvas.

Georgian Bay Ontario Canada - Sunbrella Boat Tops, Canvas Covers, Custom Biminis, Marine Upholstery, Boat Fabrics & Carpeting - JT's Top Shop

Thanks
~Sol


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## doogymon (Apr 6, 2008)

SOLPHIAIR 

I think you have found a beauty boat.

Looks like a good deal was had. 

Sounds like you and the family are off to a great start.

JT's shop and material equals top shelf!

See ya in the North Channel (great place to learn the ropes).

Bob
C&C 27 MKIII


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> Will this stuff last a few winters?
> l


Nothing will last even one winter unless you make absolutely sure there are no sharp contact points between the cover and your boat and the ribs you will have to use in order to avoid tarp sagging. I often think that having an actual roof (car port type for example) over your boat is far superior and cheaper in the long run to any tarp solution. Especially if you intend to work on the boat during that time.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

doogymon said:


> SOLPHIAIR
> 
> See ya in the North Channel (great place to learn the ropes).
> 
> ...


Thanks mate

Care to play a game of bumper boats?

~SOL


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

krisscross said:


> Nothing will last even one winter unless you make absolutely sure there are no sharp contact points between the cover and your boat and the ribs you will have to use in order to avoid tarp sagging. I often think that having an actual roof (car port type for example) over your boat is far superior and cheaper in the long run to any tarp solution. Especially if you intend to work on the boat during that time.


Would getting her warped by the marina be a better option until next year?

No plans to work on her during the winter.
Just need to tie her down and plan for the spring.

~Sol


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I'm not sure how much they would charge to wrap your boat, but it would save you quite a bit of effort and make a lot better cover than any tarp.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

What do you guys think of this?

Headliner in a boat. Headlineing






~Sol

LOL I am totally going to do this in Cedar.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Can any one point me to how you attach Firing strips to steel?

Thanks
~Sol

VHP Tape?


----------



## harmonic (Sep 10, 2013)

Spray on foam is a big no go in steel boats it was tried for a few years over here,most of the boats got water under the foam and had massive rust issues,just use polystyrene sheet it can be cut to a tight fit and is easy to remove and check behind.


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## Mr. Bubs (Aug 21, 2013)

Brent Swain said:


> Sure glad I'm not "Normal!


Oh, I'm sure that your monkey-turning-a-crank-until-the-banana-falls-out-of-the-chute "welder" is fine for an emergency repair when the Farmall breaks down in the back 40, but I'd be wary of crossing a body of water in a vessel that was constructed entirely in that fashion.

BS (how coincidental that those are your initials), with all due respect (if there is any to be given?), I have many years of experience in metal design and fabrication (caveat - not in the marine industry, but I'm sure some of the concepts and principles still apply). I would like to see some certification, accreditation (self-promotion excluded of course), or at the very least, weld schedules on the "boats" you have "built".

FYI I'm not trying to start another steel-vs-plastic-vs-ferrocement-vs-monohull-vs-Swain-vs-Perry thread derailment, I just want to warn the OP about taking any of your advice. (Ever I do not want to get slapped by DRF, that really stings!)


----------



## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

harmonic said:


> Spray on foam is a big no go in steel boats it was tried for a few years over here,most of the boats got water under the foam and had massive rust issues,just use polystyrene sheet it can be cut to a tight fit and is easy to remove and check behind.


Ya taking it apart to periodically check for issues sounds like a good idea.

Did small gaps cause issue?

or where they back filled with another Martial?

Thanks
~Sol


----------



## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Mr. Bubs said:


> Oh, I'm sure that your monkey-turning-a-crank-until-the-banana-falls-out-of-the-chute "welder" is fine for an emergency repair when the Farmall breaks down in the back 40, but I'd be wary of crossing a body of water in a vessel that was constructed entirely in that fashion.
> 
> BS (how coincidental that those are your initials), with all due respect (if there is any to be given?), I have many years of experience in metal design and fabrication (caveat - not in the marine industry, but I'm sure some of the concepts and principles still apply). I would like to see some certification, accreditation (self-promotion excluded of course), or at the very least, weld schedules on the "boats" you have "built".
> 
> FYI I'm not trying to start another steel-vs-plastic-vs-ferrocement-vs-monohull-vs-Swain-vs-Perry thread derailment, I just want to warn the OP about taking any of your advice. (Ever I do not want to get slapped by DRF, that really stings!)


Thanks.

I value the conventional and non conventional thinking.

We have some resources to throw at this project.
but thous resources are not infinite 

~SOL


----------



## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> I appreciate the paint numbers if you have the time.
> 
> experienced voodoo is better then Regular voodoo!


Ameron 302 is the zinc primer.

Ameron 235 for the Bar Rust

Ameron ABC3 for anti-fouling (hot roll over 235 or sand to get an aggressive surface, need at least 3 coats on first application)

Ameron 133 for lining water tanks.

Call your local PPG paint distributor to get pricing and delivery. They deliver it to my door with no charge. I have had them drop ship to my marina, no charge.

Good luck.


----------



## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

hpeer said:


> Ameron 302 is the zinc primer.
> 
> Ameron 235 for the Bar Rust
> 
> ...


Awesome Can you give me a price estimate. 
Ball park for your boat?

Thanks
~Sol


----------



## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

33' cutter, about 6 quarts a coat on the bottom. Say $110/gal. All very, very rough.

Looks like they took the pics of your boat down. Would love to see 'em.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

hpeer said:


> 33' cutter, about 6 quarts a coat on the bottom. Say $110/gal. All very, very rough.
> 
> Looks like they took the pics of your boat down. Would love to see 'em.


Ameron 302 is the zinc primer.

Ameron 235 for the Bar Rust

Ameron ABC3 for anti-fouling (hot roll over 235 or sand to get an aggressive surface, need at least 3 coats on first application)

I will put up some picks.

Soo. lets say 
130 a gal tax and screw ups.

Ameron 302 is the zinc primer. 2 coats, 12 quarts

Ameron 235 for the Bar Rust 3 coats, 18 quarts

Ameron ABC3 3 coats , 18 quarts

$32.5 a quart ish. x 48 quarts ish = $1560

Does this seem correct ish?

I can send you the survey if you want to take a look at it and give me your opinion.

Pass along your private email.

Thanks
~Sol


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Very roughly correct.

public at hpeer dot com


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

hpeer said:


> Very roughly correct.
> 
> public at hpeer dot com


Any suggestions for the inside?

Thanks
~Sol


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## Jud (Oct 7, 2015)

Read this article below, just by way of mental background, in case your boat is in poor shape inside, underneath cabinetry, etc. (I think I read in the thread you didn't have a survey done?). 

Google it - it appeared in Cruising World magazine recently, written by super experienced offshore sailor Alvah Simon: "Refitting a Steel Cutter: Rust Never Sleeps". It should give you pause to think.

Years back, I bought a steel boat with little knowledge beforehand - fortunately it is quite well built (professionally yard built to a known designer's plans; hull was flame sprayed with zinc when built, and heavily painted inside and out)...that said, after 25+ years, some offshore, the boat has needed work, but nothing insurmountable. Yet?!? ;-)

Would I like a fibreglass boat? Sometimes. (I also own a Cal 20, and have raced and cruised on fibreglass boats.) But I own what I own, it's insulated and works well in our cold wet climate, and my longer range plan is high latitude (polar) cruising, and I couldn't afford an aluminum boat. Hopefully your boat has no wood bolted or glued down anywhere (bad water/rust trap), like a separate cabin top; has stainless where needed (e.g., around opening of chain locker where chain will chafe); doesn't have tons of deck penetrations (like bolted on cleats); and was generally built by an intelligent builder. My portlights were of a terrible design and I've had to do a big redesign/repair to fix rust issues. But overall it's a good cruising boat built by someone who knew what they were doing. I've seen some really, really badly-built steel boats that are ungainly maintenance horror shows. (And some in fiberglass too.) Good luck! 

Have you had your hull ultrasound tested? I have not, but it has occurred to me many times, although I do not know enough about the reliability of such testing. And just remember, it's not too late to sell your boat and get something with less potential commitment, if that turns out to be the case...jus' sayin'.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Hey jud.

I had the survey done.


How are the furrings attached to the hull for the in side of the cabin?

~SOL


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## Jud (Oct 7, 2015)

On my boat, there are little (1/2" wide by 1/4" thick?) cedar (?) strips that are tacked between the frames (above the water line only) with dabs of silicone to hold them. This stands the sheets of foam off the metal hull.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Jud said:


> On my boat, there are little (1/2" wide by 1/4" thick?) cedar (?) strips that are tacked between the frames (above the water line only) with dabs of silicone to hold them. This stands the sheets of foam off the metal hull.


I was thinking of attaching them with 3m VHB tape.
Very strong stuff

Or

3M Scotch-Weld 7271 : A New Unique Faster and Greener Structural Adhesive for Composite Applications

with

bigHead bolts.

Featured Products : Industrial Adhesives and Tapes : 3M Europe:*3M Scotch-Weld 7271 : A New Unique Faster and Greener Structural Adhesive for Composite Applications


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## Jud (Oct 7, 2015)

I've no idea - best to ask a designer or builder about such details.

On my boat, I'm guessing they simply tacked the strips of wood in place (that keep the foam off the steel) with a dab of silicone on each end in order to prevent moisture build up, and thus rust, underneath them. Sorry, I've no idea about what you're proposing to use.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Jud said:


> Have you had your hull ultrasound tested? I have not, but it has occurred to me many times, although I do not know enough about the reliability of such testing.


The ultrasound thickness testing is very reliable. I used to do it on steel tanks holding petroleum products. You can rent a meter for just a few bucks and do it yourself. Not much to it.


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## Jud (Oct 7, 2015)

Interesting - thanks for the info.

But I suppose there is a technique to it, to make sure you cover the area under test sufficiently...or something like that?

I also remember seeing somewhere the website of a surveyor that did alu and steel hulls, and he had a tool/technique like ultrasound but a different technology that I think produced an image of the hull, showing structural members behind the plates, kinda like an MRI or X-Ray image, but I seem to remember the hull pics looked like infrared pictures, with different shades indicating different thicknesses. I'm going on memory here.

Would appreciate any info on these two topics! I'm pretty sure my hull is in very good shape, having crawled through the most of the boat top to bottom and stem to stern...but I can't crawl everywhere!! ;-)


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

The idea is to be very systematic and thorough when it comes to taking readings. Not missing a spot. As you place the probe on the surface, the meter sends a ping and displays the thickness. You are looking for thin spots. The meter reads just the thickness of the steel, regardless of the surface coating inside or outside. Once you find a thin spot, you focus on taking a lot of readings there and mark it with a grease pencil, recording the range of readings in that area.
I'm not familiar with the x-ray imagery but I don't think it is something an amateur with a rented meter could handle.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> I completely understand.
> You are 100% correct in that I am not ready.
> 
> The family will not set foot on the boat unless or until it is sound.
> ...


I don't like steel boats; too much rust and maintenance for my blood. But you I like. Love the attitude, love the plan, love the open-mindedness and hope for adventure and challenge. All that works for me because you clearly will not put yourself or your family into an unsafe situation. So do those sailing lessons, work on the boat. Even if you wind up never taking this boat out at all, you win. Good on yer.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

hpeer said:


> Very roughly correct.
> 
> public at hpeer dot com


Hey Hpeer.

What is the process for paint for the interior?

Ameron 302 is the zinc primer. 2 coats, 
Ameron 235 for 3 coats, 
Ameron ABC3 3 coats ,

Would you just apply all These to the interior?

In this order?


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

For interior 
302 (optional, opinions vary)
235 - 2 or 3 coats

Then your are good. 

ABC3 is your anti-fouling. 
133 is for water tanks.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> I was thinking of attaching them with 3m VHB tape.
> Very strong stuff
> 
> Or
> ...


My boats have the furring bolted to structural members, frames.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

hpeer said:


> For interior
> 302 (optional, opinions vary)
> 235 - 2 or 3 coats
> 
> ...


So

302 x 3 coats.
235 x 3 coats.

36 quarts @ 35 bucks 1260

Would this be acceptable for a 10 year stint?


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> So
> 
> 302 x 3 coats.
> 235 x 3 coats.
> ...


302 - 1 coat, not too thick.
235 - 2 or 3 coats.

It's acceptable until it isn't. Maybe 30 years in most places, some will be off in 10 months.

Welcome to steel boats.

Some folks don't like this book, I do. It shows the vagaries.

Stuff happens. You must be vigilant.

Metal boat maintenance-A do it yourself guide by Scott Fratcher (eBook) - Lulu


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## Jud (Oct 7, 2015)

Come to think of it, my boat does too. When the original poster said "furring" (or however it's spelled), I was thinking he just meant the small pieces that keep the sheet foam off the steel plate (under deck, etc.). But I also have wood (oak, I believe) bolted to some of the ribs, as structural stuff, for bulkheads, if memory serves (not what I'd call firring).

I do hope he reads that scary Cruising World article I referred to in my first (?) post above. I had never truly considered the hidden recesses of my hull - and that article kind of scared the **** out of me (the author very unexpectedly found lots of holes in his hull). (I've repaired extensive hidden rot in my house...and it was pretty depressing...!)



hpeer said:


> My boats have the furring bolted to structural members, frames.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Jud said:


> Come to think of it, my boat does too. When the original poster said "furring" (or however it's spelled), I was thinking he just meant the small pieces that keep the sheet foam off the steel plate (under deck, etc.). But I also have wood (oak, I believe) bolted to some of the ribs, as structural stuff, for bulkheads, if memory serves (not what I'd call firring).
> 
> I do hope he reads that scary Cruising World article I referred to in my first (?) post above. I had never truly considered the hidden recesses of my hull - and that article kind of scared the **** out of me (the author very unexpectedly found lots of holes in his hull). (I've repaired extensive hidden rot in my house...and it was pretty depressing...!)


It was a good article.

"After a 22,000-mile Pacific Rim tour and two years of wanton neglect of our steel cutter, Roger Henry, I was finally forced to face the haulout from hell."

I this seems like a decent run to me.

Nothing lasts for ever.

~Sol


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## Jud (Oct 7, 2015)

If you think about it, 22,000 miles isn't really that much ocean sailing - I mean, with a well-built and maintained fiberglass boat, after 22,000 miles (roughly a circle around the Pacific Ocean) you certainly wouldn't be quite literally ripping apart the inside of the boat to repair a hull that is leaking in seven places underwater! (There would be normal wear and tear on all the other gear, though.)

I doubt that boat ever had a major rebuild since it wintered over in the high Arctic (they wrote a book about it)...which, with all the condensation, then deep freezing, then thawing out...followed by 22,000 ocean miles, followed by a few years of neglect (he said in the article)....combined with the age and normal wearing out of the boat...all probably eventually took its toll on the inside of the hull. Yup, nothing lasts forever. But steel boats can definitely require a lot of work to get them to last longer.

I guess overall the article made me fully realize that truly major problems can occur on a steel boat, quietly, that could easily sink you...and you don't even know it. My boat's been out of the water for 6 years, and I plan to have the hull ultrasounded next spring...peace of mind. (It's not a new hull by any stretch, but it looks to be in good shape...still). I've rebuilt portions of the interior under the decks in the v-berth, head, and hanging locker/closet, all where large deck hardware (hatches, vents) leaked before I bought it, secretly rusting away the underside of the deck. A few portlights also leaked, letting water in to rust inside the hull.

Since then, I've been eliminating these issues by redesigning and replacing all the portlights; either removing vents (didn't need one on foredeck anyway, which got the brunt of salt water immersion); changing the style of vents to ones with fewer through deck fasteners that trap water/moisture; or devising ways to eliminate altogether through-deck screws (which hold the vents on). Whatever I can do to remove leak (and future rust) points. And I'm repainting my cockpit and deck --only have cockpit done so far, which has involved this last summer removing all the through-bolted hardware, and treating and patching rust areas before painting. Has been a humongous, time consuming job.

And that's just above the water line. Next spring I turn my attention below the waterline...and hopefully don't start wondering why I didn't buy a fiberglass boat ;-). No, it's all toward an eventual high latitude voyage, for which I want a stout boat. Get it right now and it should last another 20 years...


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Saw the survey.looks good.
Th e area in the back of the full length keel is the most vulneravle to rust and the hardest to deal with. That is where you should check first for thickness. Putting a straight edge across from two areas of good steel and sliding a dial caliper across it will give to you the depth of any pitting. Welding a cap on it and making the area airtight will eliminate any future corrosion or maintenance problems there. You can test your welds with about 5 PSI pressure and soapy water. 5 PSI is a huge amount of pressure, total , over so many sq inches so don't overdo it. While the oxygen in there is not enough to support much corrosion , blasting CO2 in will reduce it further either from a fire extinguisher or a piece of dry ice.Let the later evaporate completely before sealing it.
With a steel or aluminium hull, there is absolutely no need for raw water cooling or a heat exchanger. The entire hull , below the waterline, is potential heat exchanger. Welding in a cooling tank , preferably vertical, with baffles, will solve that major source of engine problems.
On Metalboatsociety.org, a diesel mechanic was quoted as saying" If everyone went for keel cooling and dry exhaust, we mechanics would all be out of work".
Dry exhaust also solves a lot of problems including condensation corroding the valves. Exchange the steel l for a couple of inches around the exhaust ,on the transom, with stainless plate. Even with wet exhaust it corrodes there eventually. Wrapping a dry stainless sch 40 pipe exhaust pipe with pink fibreglass house insulation then three inch wide muffler tape, then covering it with silicone caulking, gives me a dry exhuast which is cool to the touch after days of motoring in the tropics.

Last drop shaft seals get passed from owner to owner ,most of whom eventually go for stuffing boxes.
If a stuffing box leaks, you get a slow drip. If a last drop leaks, it gushes in ,and can sink a boat quickly. Dangerous enough ,more so if it is in a hard to access place.
One should put a sump, and sump drain on a gravity fed tank, so you can drain any water or sludge off , any time . Also one should have a shut off in the tank.
Turning the area under the engine into a sump is not l that hard to do, keeping any oil leaks contained away from the rest of the bilge.
Sinks should be tested with a magnet( as well as any galley ware) Magnetic stainless rusts in the tropics non magnetic doesn't . Made in India stainless is mostly non magnetic, and cheap, good stuff.
I wouldn't worry about marine wire. On metalboatsociety.org a guy said his 45 year old single strand house wire was as good as new. I have puled much younger marine wire out of boats which was corroded for its entire length. Fine strands act like wick , wicking water for its entire length , something which doesn't happen with single strand wire. I think their worry is flexing and metal fatigue something copper is sensitive to. Small steel boats don't flex, so that is a plastic or wood boat problem as long as you tie your wires down well. Conduit helps a lot in that matter.
Switching to an outboard rudder , nd tiler steering on that boat will eliminate a lot of problems . It will drastically simplify your self steering with a trim tab operated windvane. You can also operate the trim tab with an autohelm, a very cheap one, as the load on it will be tiny and thus with at the electricla draw will also be tiny. It will be far more effective in light airs ,and tho not as powerful as a servo rig in strong wind it will be far more indestructable.
Yes, you should install a top rudder bearing. I have been told that boats with outboard rudders have a high rudder failure, but only double enders. Boats like the Ingrid have no top rudder bearings so the top of the rudder is cantilevered, a much weaker arrangement . There is no need for 7 thru hulls on a cruising boat. Keel cooling will eliminate some. Doubling up on the use of others will eliminate some others.
On a steel hull, the best is a sch 40 stainless pipe nipple welded in, with a type 316 stainless ball valve on. I have had no problems whatever with this arrangement in nearly 40 years of mostly full time cruising.
I consider my steel hull my liferaft. The chance of holing it seriously is negligible. In the Fastnet race of 79 they figure many of the people who abandoned ship, would have survived, had they stayed with the yachts, which were found floating later.
Life rafts are for boats which are easily holed , like plastic and wooden boats.
Ditto bilge alarms. With the odds of a serious holing of a steel boat being negligible I have never had one, nor have any of the steel boat owners I know. They are for fragile plastic and wooden boats.
8 inch mast sounds bit heavy. 6 inch steel with an 11 gauge wall has worked well for my boats.
6 inch aluminium tubing with an 1 guage wall will make a better boom. Mine cost me $11 in a scrap yard.
A furling jib will make sailing a lot easier. The one in my book costs under $150 for materials and involves a days work. It is one of the most reliable anywhere.
Yes you should have a forward hatch, preferably 1/8th inch aluminium. Make the coaming out oi 1/8th inch stainless, for easy maintenance. If that main hatch is steel, then replacing it with one made of 1/8th inch aluminium will make it far easier to use .
A smoke detector would be useless on my boat, with my wood stove.
With that deep forefoot , you may have a bit too much weather helm. It will be easy to cut a bit off and replace it with a half pipe section, for less drag. I have done that ,in a couple of hours.If you hit a rock , anything less that half inch wall thickness on the pipe, will dent ,.Half inch or more can hit anything without denting .


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

mstern said:


> I don't like steel boats; too much rust and maintenance for my blood. But you I like. Love the attitude, love the plan, love the open-mindedness and hope for adventure and challenge. All that works for me because you clearly will not put yourself or your family into an unsafe situation. So do those sailing lessons, work on the boat. Even if you wind up never taking this boat out at all, you win. Good on yer.


Any time you have to much rust and maintenance on a steel boat, you are doing something wrong. Get it right ,and you will have very little rust or maintenance.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> It was a good article.
> 
> "After a 22,000-mile Pacific Rim tour and two years of wanton neglect of our steel cutter, Roger Henry, I was finally forced to face the haulout from hell."
> 
> ...


I have put more miles than that on my steel boat ,over 31 years,and have had no serious corrosion problems. I suspect his boat was not properly painted in the first place, especially not inside.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

SOLPHIAIR said:


> Hey Hpeer.
> 
> What is the process for paint for the interior?
> 
> ...


I would put three or more thick coats inside. Unlike the outside, you don't easily get a second shot at it.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

harmonic said:


> Spray on foam is a big no go in steel boats it was tried for a few years over here,most of the boats got water under the foam and had massive rust issues,just use polystyrene sheet it can be cut to a tight fit and is easy to remove and check behind.


Tried sheet foam on my last boat. Despite efforts to get a vapour barrier over it, it was constantly dripping wet behind it. Spray foamed it, and had no further problems. What is critical is to get a heavy buildup of epoxy on the inside of the hull and decks, before spray foaming. Sprayfoam is no protection. It is also important to not foam the bilges. There , it will act like wick, and soak water up like a sponge. Nelson is a milder clime than here in in BC , and Kiwis are far less inclined to live aboard full time than we are here.
Here, a metal boat without spray foam would be almost unliveable. Almost all long term live aboard metal boats here are spray foamed.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Some here have used the plastic lumber ,made from recycled plastic, for firing strips . Works well, and eliminates water soakage problems. It can be bent around curves which wood would never tolerate.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Mr. Bubs said:


> Oh, I'm sure that your monkey-turning-a-crank-until-the-banana-falls-out-of-the-chute "welder" is fine for an emergency repair when the Farmall breaks down in the back 40, but I'd be wary of crossing a body of water in a vessel that was constructed entirely in that fashion.
> 
> BS (how coincidental that those are your initials), with all due respect (if there is any to be given?), I have many years of experience in metal design and fabrication (caveat - not in the marine industry, but I'm sure some of the concepts and principles still apply). I would like to see some certification, accreditation (self-promotion excluded of course), or at the very least, weld schedules on the "boats" you have "built".
> 
> FYI I'm not trying to start another steel-vs-plastic-vs-ferrocement-vs-monohull-vs-Swain-vs-Perry thread derailment, I just want to warn the OP about taking any of your advice. (Ever I do not want to get slapped by DRF, that really stings!)


I didn't get to choose my initials . Did you?
DC power, 100 amps is DC power, 100 amps regardless of the source. I guess I could follow your advice, and put a high price tag on my alternator, and if your theory holds, that would make it weld better, automatically!
What language should it be in ? What language does fate speak?
Duuuhhh!!
None the many anchors, anchor winches, self steeling, etc., which I have built with my alternator welder has ever failed, even without the high price tag stuck on it..
I think having built over 3 dozen boats,,and many dozens more have been built by others, and survived many extreme torture tests without failure, and over 40 years of living aboard, cruising 11 months a year, including 9 singlehanded Pacific crossings, in boats which I have built and designed, is a far more valid certification than paper, with no such proven track record.
You remind me of the cowboy critic on BD.net who said "I have never built a steel boat ,nor owned one, nor lived aboard one, nor cruised anywhere in one, but I have welded up a lot of steel fence posts, which proves I know all about steel boats."
You also remind me of the guy who told me "I have never owned, nor built, nor lived aboard, nor cruised in a steel boat , but I welded up a lot of Caterpillar parts, so I know all about steel boats.
You also remind me of the guy on this site, who said you need a very expensive brake press ,which can only bend straight lines, to build a steel sailboat, which has very few straight lines.
I ran brake presses for Canron , Mainland sheet metal shop,and AG Price, for years, and saw only 5 minutes of use, which could be used on the over 3 dozen steel boats I have built.

The Millar "Rougneck" welder, common on construction sites, is just a bigger alternator.

So I'll trade you initials. Mine suit you better.


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## Jud (Oct 7, 2015)

I read through this thread, and I find it a bit tragic that there exists what seems like an ideological divide. Wood boats, aluminum boats, fiberglass boats, home-built boats, factory-built boats, junk rigs, ketches, sloops, quarter-million dollar Waterline steel boats vs. home-built Brent Swain boats, etc. Engine vs. engineless. For ****'s sake - whatever. Each approach has its merits and demerits, lovers and haters, pros and cons --and budgets.

Certainly there have been plenty of successful cruises in any number of different kinds of boats - so why the ideological divide?

Who knows - it's as if everyone is fixated on being "right". Anyway, I know that I, for one, would never build a boat (out of any material!) - no interest in doing so, no time for it, and certainly I definitely do not have the skills for it! Which is why I'm all the more admiring of people like Winston Bushnell who built one of your designs and took it through the NW Passage. (I've never read the book about the voyage, but have spoken to Winston.)

Good on you, Brent, for being out of the mainstream. Need to hear from more folks like you, to keep the discussion interesting and bring a different and rarely heard perspective on things.



Brent Swain said:


> I have put more miles than that on my steel boat ,over 31 years,and have had no serious corrosion problems. I suspect his boat was not properly painted in the first place, especially not inside.


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## MikeJohns (Apr 23, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> ................
> 
> What was revealing to me was that Charlie designed all three versions to the same strength and safety margins in bending and sheer, the two forces that a boat is most likely to experience either in normal sailing, or when things go wrong. He used the same formulas and so on, including the recommended compensations for the fact that plywood is not equally strong in all directions.
> 
> Of the three, the hull and deck of the steel boat was dramatically heavier, (well over 50% heavier) to achieve the equal strength. To compensate for that excess weight in the hull and deck, the displacement of the steel version was 1,200 lbs heavier..............


The steel version was a poor design IMO. 
I had a client recently with a steel Departure that was far too tender to stand up well to her sail and slow speed maneuvering was abysmal.

The client had an emotional attachment to the boat but wanted the vices corrected. I took the design job and the full keel was cut off, a medium fin keel added and a larger semi balanced separate rudder hung aft.

I increased keel draft, and actually removed some of the ballast. Afterwards there was no comparison, it was a completely different craft in every respect. The final stability curve was also very good, I made it significantly stiffer. 
In consequence the boat has now become a capable sailboat with what would have been a relatively small design change at the design stage.

Unfortunately it's boats like the original that should not have been built in steel without lowering the ballast. The usual scenario is that the original boat has a lot of ballast added on top of the existing ballast to try and improve stability to carry more sail needed even more to compensate for the heavier re-ballasted boat.......

But this is really a fault of the initial design. Your real beef should be that boats from heavier materials need deeper keels for the same Dellenbaugh angle.

By varying keel draft ( and hence ballast placement ) by no more than a foot and a half you can keep displacement virtually constant but shift the GZ curve wherever you want it even to the point where GM ( metacentric height) is too jerky for comfort.

Once sailboats get to 45 feet it's quite feasible to produce performance cruisers in steel that are very able, even too light and stiff IMO for a comfortable cruising boat with D/L ratio of 250 and a very powerful stability curve , there are good examples from designers like Adams. You just have to put up with a 6'7" draft which isn't too onerous.

Steel sail boats even quite small sailboats are certainly popular in Australia and NZ. Some of them are really good boats.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I'm not a big fan of ultra sound. If you buy the stuff and do it yourself ( I have not) then it might be ok, especially if you want to examine some tough to get at spots. But both of my boats have been "professionally" sounded and they missed all the problem areas. The weak spots can be very small and localized.

Better to sound the hull with a hammer. Nothing better than a Mark I eyeball, very bright light, and screwdriver or awl. Dig at it. It can make your stomach turn to poke that hard but do it. Wishful thinking won't make things better. Believe me, I know.

On the other hand....someone once said steel boats will always let you know when there is a bad problem by leaking very slowly. In my very limited experience I have found that to be true or more correctly I can see exactly why that is true. You will likely get a warning, just don't over look it. Now, if you have a leak, don't take a 18oz ball peen hammer to test the hull while in the water, then you just may sink in short order.

A few months ago a guy brought a steel hull houseboat to our marina for a bottom job. Yeah, it needed a bottom job, an entire bottom. The interior framing of the boat was normal structural, light gauge, steel framing, with just the factory primer. Surely the welds had never been painted. I could not really tell as there had been maybe six inches of standing water in the bilge for a long time.

Crawling under the boat there were hundreds of holes. Some nearly as big as a dime. The boat had no zincs and you could clearly see which of the holes were being actively attacked by electrolysis. Thy were bright shiny metal, not rusted.

I was totally amazed the boat had been afloat. It was only the accumulation of old bottom paint and growth and perhaps the bilge sludge that kept the thing from sinking like a rock. I honestly believe that the slings scraped off enough gunk that the boat would have gone straight to the bottom upon relaunch.

But that boat was severely abused. 20 to 30 years old, no paint, no zincs, years in a different marina that has a reputation for being electrically active. So yeah, I'm only surprised it lasted as long as it did.

I'm getting better at fixing and welding. The last hole I found was not leaking, but was well hidden under a lot of paint in the lazarett. Very hard to get to from inside. I found a rusty spot outside and after digging at it found it was rusted right through. In fact I now realize that problem had been there for some years.

I cut out the bad area from the outside. I cut a plate a little bigger than the hole and slipped it through to the inside. Then I welded it from the outside, having no access from the inside. Having the plate on the inside meant a minimum of sparks getting loose inside the boat. Then I cut a second plate to fit the depression in the hull and welded that in. The whole project took a day on site excluding the paint, and time spent driving home to get the welder and cables and such and then taking it back. I did earlier repairs that did not work as well because I was too timid. In the long run they took longer and probably were not as good.

That's why I recommend the Fratcher book. Very practical. Very real world.


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## MikeJohns (Apr 23, 2008)

A long nosed Die grinder is a useful tool for steel boat maintenance, use an electric power tool off an inverter , there are apparently battery versions now. Rust often forms a few deeper pits with tightly packed oxide, it's important to get all the surface to bright metal. A die grinder can clean out any pits, it can also be used to clean larger areas. There are a lot of different shaped cutters available for die grinders, a small ball is good for taking out small oxide pits, a flame shape and a large cone shape are good for cleaning a patch of paint and rust and you won't send sprays of hot sparks that are such a pain from a grinder. 

I'm not a fan of using phosphoric acid ( rust converters) , it's better to get the steel bright with mechanical methods. Using the rust converters often hides a few scale pits that will come back to haunt you. Acid also activates steel that is it makes it corrode much more easily. Alkali passivates steel and stops it corroding which is why lime and cement washes worked so well in the past. But you can't beat epoxy paint. 

Pnuematic Needle guns work well, a single chisel works well too on scale, but neither get all the rust pits out which is why you should follow up to bright bare steel, with no hard packed black inclusions visible before painting.

Ultrasonic thickness testers can be useful and I use them a lot, you need to know where the problems occur and locate those spots. But you only get the thickness on the spot where you put the sensor so you take a lot of readings in lines close together to get a profile.

A lot of rust problems inside will be in predictable places, wet areas head shower galley sink, water inlets around portlights and deck hatches depending on how well in was built and how well it was maintained. Anchor lockers without linings are usually problematic.

Steel boats should have dry dusty bilges throughout. All water should be lead straight to sumps, Shaft seal drips should go into a catcher not into a bilge. 

Get hold of the book "Steel Away" By Smith/Moir it has some good info for steel boat owners.


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## SOLPHIAIR (Mar 15, 2015)

Would packing the hard to reach places with Como be of benefit?
The stuff lasts for ever and would only needs to be touched up from time to time

Cosmoline 1060 - Available Now at Cosmoline Direct

http://www.cosmolinedirect.com/cosmoline-black-rust-veto-344/


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## Jud (Oct 7, 2015)

Hpeer,

Thanks for the recommendation - I'm going to check out the Scott Fratcher book.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

It is not uncommon for designers to under estimate the huge buoyancy of a full length keel. 
I have used die grinders,etc for maintenance for decades.This us the first time I used a mini blaster and compressor.No going back. I will rent a small compressor every time I do such maintenance, from now on. Chipping the rust spots first, makes the blasting far easier and quicker. There is no way to get the surface cleaner or a better surface for paint adhering, than sandblasting.Nothing quicker.
For single keels, I use stainless, large diameter tubing, for the bilge sump.


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