# Sailboat Cost of Ownership



## fredct (Jul 27, 2011)

I am a new member looking at buying a used sailboat. As much fun as it is to imagine the lifestyle, I am trying to realistically assess the annual out of pocket expenses of sailing. I have pasted below a rough model that breaks down the cost into annual expenses and one-time expense (mainly boat purchase and lessons). The bottom line: it costs about $15k to operate a sail 35' to 40' boat in the North East to which one needs to add finance costs. I would appreciate if experienced members would look at my itemization and tell me if I forgot something. I left out depreciation to keep things simple. Sorry about format.

Annual Expenses

Berthing/storage 
Winter $2,360 
Slip $4,080

Fuel $1,000

Maintenance 
Sand & paint the bottom	$1,500 
Varnish the interior $200 
Routine engine $300 
Wax the hull $250 
Toilet maintenance $200 
New running rigging $267 5 year life
Sail wear and tear $1,000 
New standing rigging $800 8-10 year life
Unexpected events $1,000 Everything else!
Subtotal maintenance $5,517

Regulatory fees
CT registration $250 Paid annually
Insurance $1,500 Annual

Annual total $14,707 

One-time expenses	

Purchase Boat $75,000 
Surveying $1,200 
Tax $4,688

Lessons/training/courses 
ASA 101-5 $1800

One time Total $82,698

Finance	$7400 (75% of total price over 10 years)

*Total cost of ownership	$22,111 *

First year out of pocket $40,869 (Annual cost + 25% down payment)


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## GMC (Sep 14, 2009)

I guess you could spend that much, but I don't. I am 26 foot, but winter storage in New Bedford was about 800.00. Mooring (I own the tackle and only pay yearly fee to city) is about 150. I pay a mooring outfit to remove ball and put in winter stick and vice versa for about 75. I do the sanding and painting at this point, so cost is just my time and cost of paint 300. I've been paying a mechanic about 300. a year for various issues with my engine. You list fuel as 1,000. I've got a diesel saildrive and I doubt if I use over 100. of fuel a season. Small engine. I only pay about 300 for basic insurance. Would pay more if boat or my exposed assets were more. I've had boat for 3 years and still use standing rigging and running that was on boat. I had some stitching done to mainsail when I got it, for about 300. I can't comment on the other stuff. Whatever mine adds up to, I try to avoid calculating because my wife may ask. So, there are ways to spend a lot less, just depends.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

Fuel seems very high, unless you are going to be out and motoring a lot...or are including slip electical in that.

Rigging escrow seems low to me...unless you are going to do it all yourself. Similarly the bottom work is about half what I have seen up your way, unless it too is DIY.

You will analyze your self right of a boat, if you are basing the decision on $$$ per XXXX. There are several threads here on $$ per sail, $$per month, $$....and none of them can be rationally made.

About right for the rest of the stuff, you may be able to save a bit here and there...but it will wash out eventually.

All the best.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

kd3pc said:


> You will analyze your self right of a boat, if you are basing the decision on $$$ per XXXX.


I agree. It's good that you're trying to be realistic and estimate your costs, but too much thought brings other thoughts and next thing you know, you're still on land looking at other people's sails.

Some years you will spend little to nothing beyond what it costs for fuel and your living expenses. Other years you might spend three times what you think you'd have to because something major breaks.

I also think your fuel costs are way too high unless you're going to motor most of the time.


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## fredct (Jul 27, 2011)

*Adjustments!*

Cost of fuel was just a guess (I recently paid for my winter oil!).

I don't think I would do rigging so that number would need to go up.
Bottom work: not sure, I probably would not do it the couple of times.


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## fredct (Jul 27, 2011)

*Why we do what we do!*

Owning a sailboat is probably a lot like buying a second house. If you think about it too much, it stops making sense financially.

Many things fall into that category: vacations, golf and yet people do it all the time (yours truly included).

I have already decided to cut travel as I try to make room for this new project. That said, it may not be enough (hence this post). What else needs to go is what I fear.


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

Other than fuel (way to high) most of your numbers are correct. In fact a little low because you will always be fixing things or adding/replacing things as they break. The bigger the boat the more it cost for total ownership. If you have KISS boat it will obviously cost less in all departments. 
I commend you for looking forward in total ownership cost and asking the questions.


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## fredct (Jul 27, 2011)

*Revised*

Lowering fuel cost to $300 and lowering boat price to $35k with everything the same, I come up with $14k in recurring costs and $17k in total cost of ownership (both figures per year).

These are post-tax dollars so depending on income bracket, you are looking at $23-25k top line per year.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Fred,

Do you know yet what type of boat you want? I ask because narrowing it down may help with your calculations.

I narrowed our list down to about three boats and then I spent time researching known issues. So, when we decided on the Catalina there there two or three major things that we knew other owners had problems with and so we knew going into it that we had to eventually get these things fixed. It also gave us some specific questions to ask the surveyor and have him look for them as he did his thing.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

fredct said:


> Sailboat Cost of Ownership?


Always overestimate your cost. , Murphy's law is alive and well. You don't want to resort to a fire sale if thing goes wrong. Certainly it is hard to ask the Congress to bail us out if we can't afford our toys these days. 

I would x1.5 to x2 your expense and go from there.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

fredct said:


> I am a new member looking at buying a used sailboat. As much fun as it is to imagine the lifestyle, I am trying to realistically assess the annual out of pocket expenses of sailing. I have pasted below a rough model that breaks down the cost into annual expenses and one-time expense (mainly boat purchase and lessons). The bottom line: it costs about $15k to operate a sail 35' to 40' boat in the North East to which one needs to add finance costs. I would appreciate if experienced members would look at my itemization and tell me if I forgot something. I left out depreciation to keep things simple. Sorry about format.
> 
> <snip>


First, let's clear up a misconception: A sailboat is not a sound financial decision under any circumstance. It is a hole that you throw money into, that provides entertainment.

It sounds to me like you've already talked yourself out of this. You've described a scenario where you buy an unneccesarily expensive sailboat, pay for the yard to do every little bit of maintenance and upkeep, pay for professional sailing lessons, and pay to berth it in one of the most expensive areas in the country.

Either you're very wealthy and the money doesn't really matter to you so the question is irrelevant, or you're just trying to talk yourself out of it.

If you really want to sail, then you can pare this list way down by making some simple sacrifices. Buy a slightly smaller, slightly older vessel, do some of the maintenance yourself, and crew on the Wednesday night beercan circuit for a season to learn how to sail for free. The boat market is in the toilet right now. $75,000 for a 35' boat? Jesus, I just bought a very solid, 30' boat that is NOT a piece 'o chit for $4,000!

$1,000 annually for fuel? I forget, did you say you were buying a sailboat or a power yacht?

Apparently you live in New England. You'll probably sail 3-4 times per month, 4-5 months per year, greatly reducing your wear and tear on systems and thereby reducing your maintenance costs. $200 per year on _toilet maintenance?_ (unless what you really mean, is winterizing the head and holding system?)

If you expect everything to be brand-new and shiny, and expect it to be profesionally maintained by others, then don't complain about the cost. It sounds to me like you'd be happier spending the money on bonds and sitting in the living room watching your interest accrue.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Bubblehead was a bit...blunt...about it but I have to agree with a lot of what he said. A sailboat is NOT a sound financial decision by any stretch of the imagination. 

If your range is 35' to 40', keep in mind that just adding one or two feet (let alone five) increases costs dramatically. 

Don't be afraid of older boats. Some of them are built better than what came out in the late 80s and 90s. Just do your research.


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## welshwind (Feb 27, 2005)

I basically do everything myself from bottom paint to waxing to oil changes to engine repair ... That being said, I pay:

$100 at most for a season of fuel... we sail, motor only getting in and out of dock
$1200 for winter storage (outside on the hard)
$3000 slip
$650 insurance
$500 transient fees for our one-week sailing trip to other ports

plus cost of oil, filter, wax, and other miscellaneous items. Beyond that, I'd probably throw another $1000 a year (on average) to cover unexpected things such as Fresh Water Pump and Starter (which I have had to replace). The boat is a 1998 Beneteau 36cc and we have had it for eight seasons, so this is based on those eight years.

I have not had to replace sails or rigging as of yet.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

What everybody else has said... The smaller the boat, the cheaper it is. Cost goes exponentially up by the foot.


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

fredct said:


> Fuel $1,000
> 
> Maintenance
> Sand & paint the bottom	$1,500
> ...


 I always like to over-estimate expenses myself but this is waayyy over the top
Fuel - Unless you are buying a 75hp MotorSailer like mine and are motoring all around New England Every Year I'd put that down to $100-$200 as a High Estimate. I Motorsailed to Martha's Vineyard a couple weeks ago at 16hrs round trip for maybe $180 - $200 (not really sure).
Maintenance - Are you doing Nothing yourself ???? I just Sanded and Painted my 33' bottom in June - $400 haul, $200 paint, $50 sanding (factoring in a sander and vacuum over a few years) And - this is all done only every other year.
Varnish the Interior - If I sanded and varnished my ALL Teak interior Every Year maybe I could spend $200 but Interior varnish is a 5 year thing - max.
Routine Engine - Again only if you have a 75hp engine and you are including the winterization anti-freeze could you come close to that figure.
Wax the Hull - Again ..... are you paying someone to do this ? .... if not $20
Toilet Maintenance - You could almost buy a complete new head for that every year.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

While I believe that every new boater should know what he or she is getting into, there is a point when getting _too_ granular will have the opposite result.

There's just no way you can plan for _every_ expense.


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## fredct (Jul 27, 2011)

*Reality check*

To Blubberhead and others:

First, thanks for the feedback. I appreciate comments from more experienced hands.

I did revise fuel costs. Thanks to all who mentioned it.

That said, I am very handy but not experienced (yet) in diesel, sails, rigging and so on. I am sure that I would need paid help, at least initially. In addition, it may not be simple to work on boat in winter because of berthing/storage location so again, paid help may be needed.

I own my own business but I am no day trader or millionaire, just a dad trying to have fun while making sure that there is enough money to pay for 2 kids going to college real soon. Would it be nice to jump in with both feet and forget about tomorrow? You bet! I am just trying to be grown up about it.

Yes the NE is expensive (hence this post as opposed to a similar one from FL). Yes the season is short but what's new here? I am not trying to talk myself out of anything, just deciding what my pain level is. I won't go through all this trouble to have my boat repossessed because I can't afford the note or the berthing charges.

Thanks again and keep comments coming.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

fredct said:


> To Blubberhead and others:
> 
> First, thanks for the feedback. I appreciate comments from more experienced hands.
> 
> ...


Don't overlook asking others for help. If it's one thing most sailors are, it's willing to help. Most will save you an exorbitant cost in exchange for a beer. At our marina, they're willing to tell us how to do something and in some cases lend us a tool rather than insist that they have to do it themselves or it won't be right. Of course, they also know that for the stuff we can't handle ourselves, we go crying to them to fix it. 

Joining an owner's association and/or email list is invaluable. We've figured out many things ourselves from asking others who have been there, done that. We joined a Catalina club that states on the website as a benefit of membership that members are willing to lend a hand with other members' boats. We learn a ton from rafting up and listening at social events. Sailors love to talk about boats, too. 

I agree with the other posters that a lot of mechanical stuff on your list you can do yourself. Unless you're buying the most high tech, gadget ridden boat out there, systems are relatively simple. It just takes a bit of looking at the manual, asking advice, rolling up your sleeves and digging in. Don't be afraid.

We can't do everything ourselves, but we knew going in that being as self-sufficient as possible was going to keep costs down and also help us learn more about the boat. Now, for the most part, when something fails, we know why and how to fix it.

A book I'd recommend is _How Boat Things Work_ by Charlie Wing. He took the most common systems between the bow and the stern and made easy to read diagrams and instructions.

There's also a good diesel book by (I think) Nigel Calder but it's on the boat so I can't tell you the title. It also makes things simple for the novice. We keep it near the engine.

Remember: You are not alone. Take advantage of it.


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## welshwind (Feb 27, 2005)

Ditto DRFerron ....

Just look around at other boaters as they do their work, ask them questions, buy some maintenance books ($30 each  Sorry, just couldn't resist).

The biggest boat I owned before my Beneteau 36CC was a Hobie Cat 16. So I learned on it by doing the above, not paying someone. 

If you go to boat shows, you'll be surprised how much information the vendors (canvas guys, engine guys, electronics guys, ...) are happy to share. Just ask.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

fredct said:


> To Blubberhead and others:
> 
> First, thanks for the feedback. I appreciate comments from more experienced hands.
> 
> ...


You don't need to to own your boat to enjoy sail. Go to near by sailing clubs be a racing crew, or do as I do, sign up a time share boat, less 7 grands a year and no commitment, no headache, no maintenance. If you have your own business and two kids, the program has more than enough time than you can use.


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## fredct (Jul 27, 2011)

I have not found lease share available in CT. All are sold out through 2012.


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## GMC (Sep 14, 2009)

If you are still into it in a couple of months and want to sail a little, I'll be bringing my boat down from MA, up the CT river in Oct. or early Nov. Nothing fancy, but it might give you some ideas. You can come along one of the days and try it out.


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## fredct (Jul 27, 2011)

Great. PM me at the time. I can meet you anywhere (provided that I am in NE at the time).


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## ccher (Jun 24, 2011)

Fred, comments on a few of your items: Fuel seems really high. Using .75 gal/hour I just topped off with 7.1 gals since the beginning of the season and I'm sailing almost every weekend. Bottom paint: unless you pay someone to do it would run 300-600 depending on quality and # of coats. Sail depreciation: unless you really abuse them should be half your #, and I think that's liberal. Routine engine: maybe 100 for filters, oil, impeller, etc. (again DIY) But non-routine repairs could be much larger. One thing you didn't mention is insurance. If financing you'll have to have it and many marina's require it as well. Good luck with you shopping.


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## fredct (Jul 27, 2011)

*One more time!*

Cut fuel by 70%, sails by 50%, paint by 50% and rigging by 50% gives a total saving of $2200 per year.

That brings the recurring cost to ~$12k per year + finance. Give or take a few thousands for boat size and condition, you are looking at $1000+ per month no matter what.


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## GMC (Sep 14, 2009)

But I think you can cut your storage projections. Look at contract at the Portland yards and they will haul, power wash, store and launch for under 1K (depending on size of boat). And a mooring will cost you about that including maybe a dinghy dock fee -- so, my point is that you could have a place for your boat for about 2K. Everything depending on size of boat and location of moorings, but you can get that low even in NE. If you have to have a slip, though, I agree, you're paying much more.


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## fredct (Jul 27, 2011)

To GMC: Wife not crazy about dinghy but if the saving is that much, I think I could talk her into that. We are looking at 35-40'. That would knock nearly $6k from the $12k. Much more reasonable. I am assuming you are talking mooring in Portland?


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*Boats in general*

Hey,

Regarding a number of posts you have made, the reality of sailing is frequently very different from the fantasy of sailing. Before you jump in with both feet and buy a 35-40' boat, I think you would be better off with something in the 30' range first.

Even a 40' boat will not be 'luxurious' for 3-4 people. You will still have a fairly small and cramped V Berth forward, a small and cramped cabin aft and maybe a smaller and even more cramped cabin aft, or a decent sleeping space in the main cabin. The typical 40' will have 1 or 2 heads, a very small shower, a lack of hot water for showering, a cramped galley, poor closet space, and poor heating and air conditioning.

So, if you think a boat will make a nice summer cottage, think again. Then again, a boat allows you do go places, or go no where in particular, but have fun doing it. You can learn new skills, enjoy your self sufficiency, and spend time together.

I know lots of people who love sailing, and lots of people who don't like it. I also know many people who enjoy spending a few hours on a boat, but then want to go back to their comfortable homes.

So, before you get too involved, try to find you which camp you (and your family) fall into.

Regarding sailing locations:
The CT side of the sound is a great location. There is usually decent wind. August does tend to be light, but that's true for the entire sound. I think there is a HUGE benefit to having the boat close to home. Milford, Bridgeport (west of the main harbor) Stamford, Brandford, New Haven, West Haven, etc. etc. etc. are all nice places to boat.

Regarding your estimated costs - that's been beaten up enough already. A mooring can be much cheaper (for me it's $120 for the town permit, $100 for the mooring to be dropped in the spring and another $100 to be picked up in the fall), but, if you plan on spending weekends or longer on board, a mooring has no electric, water, or easy access to the showers, etc. on land.

IMHO, you should look for a Catalina 30 in decent condition. THere are millions of them all over the place. You should be able to find a nice one, ready to sail, for $30K. Buy it, sail it, have fun. If you love it and want a bigger boat you'll get your money back when you sell. If you hate it, you'll get your money back when you sell. If you decide you want to keep it, that's OK too.

Good luck,
Barry


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

I do it the easy way. I pay for everything the boat needs, then I worry about stuff like food, clothes and other things.

Mike


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I think Barry made a lot of sense.

I think you can afford a slip close to home, without the hassle of a mooring, if you just get realistic about your boat size and do much of the maintenance yourself.

When I was boat shopping recently, I was absolutely stunned at the cabin size of the Catalina 30. What that boat lacks in length, it makes up for in girth, and they sail well. You'll find them in a variety of conditions ranging from "derelict" to "bristol" so you can pick your purchase price, and how much maintenance you want to put into it.


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## estopa (Aug 17, 2010)

Regarding mooring and the wife in the dinghy. Just go yourself to the mooring then bring the boat back to the docks to pick her up. 95% of the folks here do this. $25 vs $120 a foot, hell I'd row to kingdom come before I'd fork over 5x just for my wife to come on board once on a weekend or so. Whats that 10-12x a year. 

As for winter storage, if you store in the marina on the sound thats like $50 a foot, if you find offsite location it can be around $35 if not cheaper. 

Like folks mentioned, if its just you 2 with occational kids. A 28-30 footer would suffice. You really don't gain much going 32-34 until you get to the 40-50fts.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Another aspect to this is your learning. *People learn faster, easier, and more enjoyably on smaller boats.* Bigger boats take longer to respond to steering changes, which slows the learning process. Smaller boats respond immediately to rudder changes and sheeting-in or loosening the sails. Smaller boats are also closer to the water and give a better feeling of speed as a result. The ideal vessel to learn on is a sailing dinghy or sunfish sailboat. By going to the relative stratosphere of 40 or more feet, you are shortchanging yourself immensely.

So if you have some time to wait for the big boat, get a sunfish sailboat and sail her together with your wife and kids. They'll love it. Do it in-between sailboat shopping.

The budget-buying decision depends a lot on how many people you have. Is it just you and your wife or are there kids? (How many kids?) If it's just the two of you, SHOP WITH YOUR WIFE and look at 25 footers for awhile. Image yourself in one, think about what-goes-where and how to make it work. Then look at some 28 footers or even a 30 footer. IIRC, somewhere right above 25 feet, you'll get a separate head (bathroom) instead of having to use a port-a-potty. Somewhere right above 28 feet you'll be able to shower. After looking at smaller boats, the increase will feel good. (Don't look at big boats with her first.) And you may even like one of the 25 to 28 foot boats.

We keep the budget down by avoiding per-foot charges. Except for winter storage, we've been fairly successful at it. We bought a dinghy so we don't need a slip. We buy fuel so that we can get water. (We've actually gone about a year since buying fuel, but if we need water - and can't get it for free - then we'll buy fuel and I'll ask my son to fill the water tanks at the same time.) Dinghy-wise, the first year we used an ocean kayak that we already owned, and a small 7' sailing dinghy. You can always get a bigger dinghy, and if ithe first one has no engine then you probably don't have to register it, saving even more money. You could get a sailing dinghy to learn sailing, and then use it as your dinghy.

By the way, I know a 25 year old guy that's spending the summer on a 25 foot boat with a small inflatable dinghy with no engine. He works and surfs during the day and sleeps on the boat at night. After buying her for maybe $4k, his yearly costs are probably below $2K. (Just a guess on that, I could be off.) He uses those backyard solar lights at night, and is looking at getting a solar panel for real lights and a radio. When the surf was flat last weekend he went for a sail. Pretty good lifestyle.

The bottom line is that sailing is wonderful. And compared to what you'd be spending on vacations, it's not that expensive.

Hope that helps. Enjoy!

Regards,
Brad


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

MikeinLA said:


> I do it the easy way. I pay for everything the boat needs, then I worry about stuff like food, clothes and other things.


That sounds a lot like my philosophy - Give me the luxuries and I'll do without the necessities.


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## fredct (Jul 27, 2011)

*The full picture!*

My 2 kids are teenagers and my wife is the grand-daughter of a real captain (Le capitaine Grard* Harvey [link is in French]. She has sailed and been around boats since she could walk. I am the real novice though we both need actual sailing lessons.

Married for 20 years, I need to thread carefully: there are minimum standards I need to deal with! I can't see getting away with a single cabin for example. I would not mind but I do intend to stay married!

I have taken in everything that was said in this post and here is what I come up with:

1- Talk the wife into mooring and pick her up at dock as mentioned here. Saving of $2-3k depending on location.
2- In year 1-2, berth between Bridgeport/New Haven to keep driving to a minimum. Consider RI and MA if/when ready to stay for weeks on end.
3- Store in Portland CT. Saving: another thousand at least.
4- Buy a non-unique boat (such as Catalina) to lessen maintenance learning curve. I am thinking about vintage 1985 or so in the $30k range, well maintained with electronic gear already installed and new sails/rigging so I don't have to deal with high expenses in year 1. Why? Because in year 1, I need to absorb CT sales tax, down payment, lessons etc...

With all that taken in, I have total COO at about $13,500 and that includes finance charges. I can't be off more than a few thousand either way and that's something I can afford by simply eliminating vacation expenses but leaving intact my wine and beer budget, something I was not ready to part with.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Learn to do as much of the maintenance your self. 250 bucks to wax the hull?. A good days work of elbow grease in my book. Also 1800 bucks for a sailing course? How about taking the USCG introductory course "Sailing & Seamanship" for about $100. How about buying a small boat say a 'lazer" and learn yourself? Crewing on other folks boat will give you good sailing experience, a few six packs along the way will make you a welcome crew member. Get a copy of Nigel Calders "Boat Owners Mechanical & Electrical Manual", this covers most things and is my Bible. Since it's getting late in the season, maybe wait until the cold days of Winter to buy a boat at even a better price. Also consider a smaller, less expensive boat for your first purchase. This way you can see if it is really for you, the learning curve will cost you less and the enjoyment level will be higher. Good luck!


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

fredct said:


> My 2 kids are teenagers and my wife is the grand-daughter of a real captain (Le capitaine Grard* Harvey [link is in French]. She has sailed and been around boats since she could walk. I am the real novice though we both need actual sailing lessons.
> 
> Married for 20 years, I need to thread carefully: there are minimum standards I need to deal with! I can't see getting away with a single cabin for example. I would not mind but I do intend to stay married!
> 
> ...


you said you intend to stay married then ditch the mooring idea right now. the wife waiting on the dock, for you pick her up is fine on a great weather day. but add a little fog, mist in the morning. a liitle windier conditions then she likes and you will only be sailing on the perfect weather days or by yourself. make her sailing experiance the best you can and yours will be great. the money you save is not worth the hassle and you will meet many more people if you are in a marina. freinds at the marina can be very imporant when that unexpected thing brakes and you need help. also you will gain a lot of knowledge from some of those people which can save you the couple of thousand $ a year. also the best way to keep the teenagers interested is to get them a sailing dingy. they will learn how to sail a lot faster and have fun doing it.


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Get a smaller boat - 25-30 foot keelboat is more than enough to start off with.


You'll leanr how to sail, you will sail more often, and have more fun.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Your boat ownership experience will cost what you can comfortably afford. No more, and no less. It's that simple.

You have to decide what you want out of your boat. Do you want to sail a lot and not have to feel that you need to put in extra hours at work to cover your boating jones? Then buy a boat under $10K (There are lots of really, really good ones out there). If you are somebody who likes new and shiny, then prepare to sail less and work more to cover the nut.

The more work you are prepared to do yourself, the lower your maintenance costs will be- the biggest cost in any marine project is labour, and the more of it you do yourself, the less it costs you each time. Case in point:
Our first year, we sanded and bottom painted our boat- we used a gallon of paint and a crapload of cheap sandpaper and lots of fairing epoxy- Material cost: $400 ish.
Year two, better paper better technique, two quarts of paint $120.
Year three, 1.25 quarts of paint. Still $120, because I had to buy 2 quarts.
This year, $10 worth of sandpaper and thinner. Used up the remaining .75 quarts from last year.

I'll still spend the $1500 we allot each year for maintenance and upgrades, but this year it is heavily biased toward upgrades. Do I NEED to make those upgrades? Nope... but I don't play golf or sit in the stands at NASCAR races- my boats are what I do. The gizmos, doo-dads and projects are my greens fees.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

A few thoughts. I fully reject others trying to set your priorities for you. Only you can decide if the expense is correct in your budget.

We view our boat as our second home and it is. We use it heavily for 6 full months of the year. I don't compare my cost to an older boat on a mooring, I compare them to those of owning a condo down south, which by the way, also turned out to be a very bad investment for all. I also prefer sailing over sitting in a condo with people just waiting to get older.

I scanned the replies and didn't notice this point. You and your wife should go take a bareboat certification course first. I do not agree that all have to start in a dinghy, but do agree that you should get the right habits to start with. It will allow you to know for sure whether this is right for you before you flush the sales tax down the drain, as well as make you competent coastal cruisers on a boat of this size. I will put a plug in for Colgate Offshore Sailing School, which took my wife from zero experience to competent in one week. An intense week, no snorkeling during the day. Highly worth it.

If you are financing the boat, be sure you will qualify for the tax deductibility ofnthe interest. That requires a lien on the boat and the boat must have a permanent head, galley and bunk. It really is just like a second home, whereby, giving you incentive to buy one will absolutely cause you to add money to the economy in all the ways on your budget.

Best of wishes, I suspect you will love it......


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## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

Couple of comments which I have'nt seen mentioned

I keep track two additional items which I call "additions" and "major maintenance". Additions includes safety gear, decent wet weather gear, upgrading electronics, etc. Some of these items may come with the boat, however a lot will not and can cost thousands. 

Major maintenance are things that do not happen evey year but cost a bundle when they do. You already have some of these mentioned with sails & standing rigging replacement. I would add major engine repairs, battery replacements, prop shaft work, etc. On my last boat (45ft) major maintenance and additions represented 30-50% of all other costs, however this was a 25 year old boat which I was upgrading for long trips. A newer boat would probably be cheaper.

Also there is nothing wrong with keeping track of costs, unless your a dreamer and / or have plenty of money to throw away. That said, I recently went from a 45ft yacht to a 34ft yacht which is definitely a lot cheaper to run. Buying the smallest yacht that will comfortably do everything you want does make a lot of sense.

Ilenart


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

No matter how good condition you buy a used boat, it is being sold for a reason. You will pay for that reason for the first season, maybe two. Then I find the maintenance settles down.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Minnewaska said:


> No matter how good condition you buy a used boat, it is being sold for a reason. You will pay for that reason for the first season, maybe two. Then I find the maintenance settles down.


That's what we're finding with our current boat. What we're doing now is mostly replacing half-a$$ed stuff the PO tried to do.


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## Kyhillbilly (Jun 14, 2011)

Great thread for a person looking into buying a sailboat. Answered a lot of questions I had and gave me a few new things to think about. Hillbilly's .02 cents worth.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

At the risk of being flogged for resurrecting an old thread, I'm posting here because this thread has so much great information and I don't want to start the search for those same answers when they have already been answered here.

The OP listed many items that looked to me like he was having the work professionally done. My only experience at owning a boat (Columbia 45) was done vicariously through my father. He wasn't shy about reminding me what everything costs. But that was a lot of years ago.

All maintenance was done by us (me and a friend or two mostly). Materials (and tools, when needed) were the only maintenance expense. And there was the slip and dry dock, no DIY on those costs.

Fuel costs varied on how much traveling we did. We made eight trips from Chicago to Mackinac Island and a couple extended into the North Channel. Time constraints and the desire to make certain destinations could increase fuel costs as the iron genny was the only way we could make it all happen.

I learned a lot about boat maintenance during the 20 years by dad owned the boat. I feel confident I could do pretty much everything I did back then, as long as this aged body lets me. I'm an electrician and a fairly accomplished woodworker. And I have a good mechanical aptitude. But energy is in short supply these days so maybe the big projects I'd farm out. I could do what my dad did and get my kids to do the work.  That is if I could hook them on sailing like I was.









Anyway, I'm beginning to seriously look for a boat. For now, I won't be selling the house so it doesn't need to be a tricked out liveaboard or proven bluewater cruiser. Yesterday, while window shopping, a 1980 Landfall 38 popped up with those puppy dog eyes.

Other than checking for a possible wet deck core and inspecting the mechanicals, what do I need to look out for to keep those initial costs down?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The only way I know to try to limit cost is to really understand the story behind the owners use and reason for selling. Surveys and inspections are important but will only tell you what works and doesn't work right now. The real costs are in what needs repair or replacement over the first few years of ownership.

The lowest cost acquisition will be from an owner that used the boat regularly, cares for it like it was their only child and is being forced to sell for health reasons or relocation or something like it. Virtually anyone is going to defer some maintenance, if they truly want to sell or have been trying for some time. If they aren't using it much, they don't even know what they've deferred.

I walked after a survey once that didn't find anything of great significance and the owner was willing to deal with every discrepancy. In most cases, t would have been a slam dunk. However, the story worried me. Many things on the listing inventory were missing, it was clearly being used to race and I even found one of the missing sails at the bottom of their slip. Under water! I boat was ridden hard and out away wet. It wasn't a question of the current condition, it was a question of whatbinwould find later.

I also purchased a boat that was advertised as an 11 out of 10 and probably was. It still required significant work over the first year or two. I think it was too babied and systems atrophied in a sense.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Owning a sailboat has been the most sound financial decision I have made in my entire life. It has allowed me to own my own home debt free since my early 20s , working only rarely, something impossible on land, spend winters in the South Pacific and Mexico many times, for less money than it would have cost me to stay home.
Expenses of owning my boat? 
Moorage, zero. I stay anchored
Heating bills, zero. Woodstove eats for free.
Maintenance, less than $100 a year.
Diesel , under $200 a year.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> .....Maintenance, less than $100 a year.


That doesn't seem possible, if you keep your boat in sailing condition.


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> That doesn't seem possible, if you keep your boat in sailing condition.


Do your own work.have a rugged,well built boat,with simple systems and its no problem.If you like complexity and lots gadgets then your right.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Just soap, parts, paint, epoxy, a screw or two would cost more than $8.33 per month.


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Just soap, parts, paint, epoxy, a screw or two would cost more than $8.33 per month.


These would be basics you would have to have on board.If you going anywhere with out spares then yes it will cost lots more.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jak3b said:


> These would be basics you would have to have on board.If you going anywhere with out spares then yes it will cost lots more.


I don't follow. They all need to replaced as consumed. While you may get away with stocking up and not having to replace for a while, it will still cost well more than $100 per year over time. For that matter, what does an oil filter and a few quarts of oil cost, how about a gallon of bottom paint?

I would have thought Brent was going to say it was a typo and he meant $1,000 per year. Although, I even question whether that is possible. It's still a tad more realistic for a DIYer, with few issues and perhaps a boat that doesn't sail much or possibly at all.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Brent Swain said:


> Owning a sailboat has been the most sound financial decision I have made in my entire life. It has allowed me to own my own home debt free since my early 20s , working only rarely, something impossible on land, spend winters in the South Pacific and Mexico many times, for less money than it would have cost me to stay home.
> Expenses of owning my boat?
> Moorage, zero. I stay anchored
> Heating bills, zero. Woodstove eats for free.
> ...


I take it you never paint your bottom or buy sails or even the material to make them? No zincs on a steel boat? No steel or welding rods? No topside paint? No new lines - ever?

Come now Brent - being economical with your boats is one thing - being economical with the truth is another.

We are all aware of what boats cost for even minimal maintenance on the cheap. The majority of 35' sailboats take more than $10 THOUSAND a year and you claim to only spend $100? For a liveaboard?


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

I built a spreadsheet with tables for the initial purchase, recurring annual expenses, recurring monthly expenses and ongoing maintenance and upkeep expenses. I estimated about $4K/yr in upkeep of the boat. The boat I used for this figure is a 1984 Sabre 34 that looks reasonably well maintained but has the original engine (633 hours, claimed), new sails, newer rigging and electronics in good to very good condition. We'll be checking it out this weekend. (_It's not in the water yet._







)

All expenses, annually, came to ~$14,600. That included a slip ($4,160), winter storage ($1,970), loan payments ($4,370), utilities, parking and upkeep.

While I don't need fancy gadgets, I do tend to like a well maintained boat. It gives me peace of mind.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> I built a spreadsheet with tables for the initial purchase, recurring annual expenses, recurring monthly expenses and ongoing maintenance and upkeep expenses.......


Way to go to make the initial purchase decision. Be sure it fits in your financial picture.

Then throw it out after you buy the boat! It's just a big buzz kill to watch those numbers fill the spreadsheet over time.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JulieMor said:


> I built a spreadsheet with tables for the initial purchase, recurring annual expenses, recurring monthly expenses and ongoing maintenance and upkeep expenses. I estimated about $4K/yr in upkeep of the boat. The boat I used for this figure is a 1984 Sabre 34 that looks reasonably well maintained but has the original engine (633 hours, claimed), new sails, newer rigging and electronics in good to very good condition. We'll be checking it out this weekend. (_It's not in the water yet._
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That spreadsheet has a very high probability of keeping you from ever owning a boat. 

If one looks at the numbers, no-one can afford boats or kids or houses.

Best to just muddle through.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Yeah, the numbers are kinda scary but if I'm ready to accept them, then I can buy with a good handle on what I'm getting into.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> That spreadsheet has a very high probability of keeping you from ever owning a boat.
> 
> If one looks at the numbers, no-one can afford boats or kids or houses.
> 
> Best to just muddle through.


Just remember it's vacation, school, and all your hobbies combined into one.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

SloopJonB said:


> I take it you never paint your bottom or buy sails or even the material to make them? No zincs on a steel boat? No steel or welding rods? No topside paint? No new lines - ever?
> 
> Come now Brent - being economical with your boats is one thing - being economical with the truth is another.
> 
> We are all aware of what boats cost for even minimal maintenance on the cheap. The majority of 35' sailboats take more than $10 THOUSAND a year and you claim to only spend $100? For a liveaboard?


 Replaced my jib sheets a couple of years ago after 27 yers and 6 Pacific crossings and the rest cruising 11 months a year in BC . Last painted my bottom in Tonga 10 years ago, having a 5,000 mile sail ahead of me back to BC, mostly to windward. That was also my last haulout. It takes me 15 minutes to scrap the bottom of my twin keeler when aground on most low tides. No need for new bottom paint. I use the free zincs others throw away, so new you can still read the writing on them. Just picked up three more today.
Topside paint ,home hardware "Fishboat" paint costs $28 a gallon. I repaint it every couple of years. I was given 5 gallons of epoxy, but it only costs around $40 a gallon, and a gallon lasts many years doing touchups.
Welding rods are for new projects, mostly for other people , not maintenance ,except for one or two rods a year for welding zincs on.
On a well built steel boat, nothing breaks ,leaks or pulls away.
So what other expenses are you thinking about?
I dont make anywhere near $10,000 a year, total. Never have.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

JulieMor said:


> I built a spreadsheet with tables for the initial purchase, recurring annual expenses, recurring monthly expenses and ongoing maintenance and upkeep expenses. I estimated about $4K/yr in upkeep of the boat. The boat I used for this figure is a 1984 Sabre 34 that looks reasonably well maintained but has the original engine (633 hours, claimed), new sails, newer rigging and electronics in good to very good condition. We'll be checking it out this weekend. (_It's not in the water yet._
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dont pay for a slip, never paid winter storage, nor loan payments, nor parking, and very little for upkeep, which I do all myself.


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## theonecalledtom (Jan 2, 2008)

lots


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Brent, pretty impressive commitment to keeping costs down. While I still spend more the $100 per year on cleaning products and polish and there are no 35mm reusable shaft zincs lying around here, I see you are doing this differently. 

However, most can't, both due to lack of desire and availability of opportunity. Chicago doesn't have a tide to beach your boat.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

fredct,

Its like telling alcoholics that drinking causes liver problems. 

You may be right but no one wants to hear it!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> fredct,
> 
> Its like telling alcoholics that drinking causes liver problems.
> 
> You may be right but no one wants to hear it!


Liar. It does not.


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## agipson (Jul 27, 2009)

Have you noticed the increase in armored cars following hearses lately? Neither have I. The greatest fear I have is to die healthy, with money in the bank, and things to do on my “Bucket List”.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

agipson said:


> Have you noticed the increase in armored cars following hearses lately? Neither have I. The greatest fear I have is to die healthy, with money in the bank, and things to do on my "Bucket List".


This is true wisdom!!!

Hey, and the OP is running a business with a young family. Sounds like the plan is to pay others to do the work. That can be a good decision when you run a business because time spent in the business is often worth more per hour than even expensive yard bills. Given this, the OP's estimates of costs are pretty darn good (yea less diesel, but the rest is pretty good).

We just had the perfect beam reach returning from Martha's Vineyard this AM. The boat was screaming, we were smiling, the spray was flying, knot log was pegged... This life provides a limited set of these perfect moments.

Buy the boat and sail on!


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Just soap, parts, paint, epoxy, a screw or two would cost more than $8.33 per month.


Depends on if they wash before they screw and how they look right?


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