# I Bought A Boat-Now What?



## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

Well friends, I have been posting for a little bit. I have skippered a couple of bareboat trips. Now my wife and I are the proud owners of a 1982 CAtalina 25 pop top. When at anchor, the hatch/coachroof lifts up via 4 small hydraulic lifts(similar to what is on a screen door). 
It has a 1999 Honda 4 stroke with electric start. Roller furling. Sails are from 2001 and in great shape. The boat is in excellent shape. $8000.00

We purchased it at Sodus Bay NY. A little east of Rochester on Lake Ontario. Should I let the broker register it for me? I am taking a personal loan for the money. No lien. Do I need insurance? What other questions do I have for the broker or owner? I need to go through the canals to get it to Cayuga Lake(my home sailing area). The boat is in the water now.
I have to take the mast down. Is 125.00 a proper fee?
Can I do it myself? What about putting it back up? The wife says just pay, don't be so cheap LOL.
Also, I don't even know where I will put it? Dock or mooring ball. I do not have a dinghy. Any thoughts there? I have no trailer, but it comes with a steel cradle for storage. Do I store it at the lake, or bring it home for the winter?(in the driveway). 
Sorry for the random questions ?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! All of your help in the past has, in a small way, made this happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Did you get the boat surveyed and sea trial it before you bought it??? I hope so... but in any case, on to your questions.

Are you registering with the state... if so, find out from their website what the fees are, and if the broker isn't ripping you off, let him do the legwork and register it... it isn't that difficult to register a boat with the state as a general rule—much like registering a car. 

Yes, I would get insurance for it...especially as it is your first boat, you'll have some "mistakes" more likely than not. 

The Catalina 25 was originally designed as a trailerable IIRC. Taking the mast down should be something you should be able to yourself, either by using a ginpole or a-frame based mast raising rig. If you don't have one, making one is relatively easy and not too expensive to do. However, I would have them do it the first time and recommend you closely watch to see what they do. Ask them to explain why they're doing it if you can. 

As for where to put it. During the season, you'll find it most convenient to have it at a marina slip/dock. This makes getting off and on the boat the simplest. A mooring ball may be cheaper but you would need a dinghy unless the marina/yatch club you're keeping it has a courtesy launch or tender. 

Winter storage... you would probably store it on the cradle at the marina. If you had a trailer it might make more sense to store it in your driveway... but without a trailer, once the boat is on the cradle—you would have to pay someone to haul the cradle to your home and back to the marina in the spring. That doesn't really make much sense.


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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

No sea trial, no survey. I asked for a sea trial, and he told me no one ever gets a sea trial. Looking back, I can see my first 2 mistakes. I am going to call the local marina and look into a survey now. I have 72 hours to cancel the deal in needed. 
would it be okay to add something to the contract?--subject to survey and sea trial----?
Sorry for noob questions.....


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I doubt it. It is very unlikely that you can retroactively add the conditions of a survey and seatrial... 

But a survey at least is generally recommended, since a survey can often spot things like a delaminating deck, which is a fairly expensive repair and can make the boat unseaworthy. A good surveyor can also give you an idea of whether the boat is worth the asking price, or if the price should be adjusted based on the results of the survey. Many people think that a survey isn't worth doing on smaller boats, that only go for <$10,000...but if the survey discovers the deck is delaminating, it could save you from a very expensive repair job.... 

Finally, if you were to get a survey, using an independent surveyor, not recommended by the broker is probably a very good idea. You want the surveyor to have your interests as his primary concern—generally the surveyor that none of the brokers will recommend is the guy you want.  

Most good surveyors are booked several weeks in advance, so YMMV.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sorry to be such a bad news bear, but, I just did a quick search for catalinas in that size range on Boats Used Boat Sales - boats.com. The price of $8000 seems a bit high, based on the prices I'm seeing there. The boat may be fine, but I wouldn't want to take the broker and seller on just good faith about it. The boat may be worth more than the $8,000 you are paying for it... _but it sounds like you've got some doubts in the back of your mind... and those doubts are usually caused by something you saw or felt about the boat but haven't consciously recognized. _

A majority of the boats are listing for $8000 or less, and if you paid the asking price, you've pretty much overpaid by a good chunk in 99% of the cases. Generally, selling prices are a good deal lower than the asking price. The asking price on your boat was $8500... from what I am seeing in the Boats.com listings.

BTW, you say the sails are from 2001 and in great shape... how do you know??? Are you a sailmaker and can tell by looking at them or are you taking the broker's word on it? Many sails can look fine, but be blown out. Given that this is a relatively small boat, sailed for the summer season on a freshwater lake, they're probably okay, but I just thought I'd ask...


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

42ndstreet said:


> No sea trial, no survey. I asked for a sea trial, and he told me no one ever gets a sea trial.


No one ever gets a sea trial, eh? Who told you that, the broker and/or seller, perchance? I'm getting a sea trial. It's happening directly following the haul-out survey, so the surveyor can accompany us on the sea trial. The seller grumbled, but he's going along with it.



42ndstreet said:


> Looking back, I can see my first 2 mistakes. I am going to call the local marina and look into a survey now. I have 72 hours to cancel the deal in needed.
> would it be okay to add something to the contract?--subject to survey and sea trial----?
> Sorry for noob questions.....


The selling broker _should_ have presented you with a contract like this: http://www.oceanmarinellc.com/broker...eAgreement.pdf - which is what I was given, except mine mentions "survey and sea trial."

Somebody posted at some point, not long ago, perhaps in a thread I started, about how they'd not had a survey done on a boat they'd bought for $2000 because it was so little money and such a deal, or something like that. Well, IIRC, they ended-up regretting that, as it cost them another $12k to fix the boat.

This boat may be wonderful. May be in wonderful condition and just what you want. Then again: Maybe not. You don't really know, do you? Personally, my policy is never to gamble more than I can afford to lose, and $8k is a helluva lot more money than _I_ can afford to lose.

Coupled with the fact that you seem to have no idea what you're going to do with this boat once you have it, my suspicion is you're jumping into this just a mite too fast, with way too little knowledge.

On the other hand: I'm an exceedingly, sometimes annoyingly, methodical person.

On the gripping hand: When I "do my thing," I rarely end up suffering buyer's remorse.

Good luck.

Jim


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Jim—

You must be a Niven or Pournelle reader...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Cancel the DEAL and then rewrite it subject to survey AND trial. 
The broker MUST present the offer to the owner AND you should walk away if either are refused. There are lots of Catalina 25's and it looks like you got no great deal anyway.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Jim-
> 
> You must be a Niven or Pournelle reader...


Amongst others


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You better believe you need insurance--- Most marinas in my experience REQUIRE insurance, especially liability insurance. Without that, you may be risking a lot more than your $8000 purchase price. A smal accident, such as many other new boat owners have had, and a sharp lawyer could take you to the cleaners. If you can still cancel the purchase, do as someone above reccommended, write a new contract including sea trial and survey. Even if you are a registered marine surveyor, an outside unbiased opinion is worth the cost. Boat U S will not insure without a survey -- does that tell you something?


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

IMHO the catalina 25 is a nice little starter boat if it's been well maintained so kudo's on the choice of boat. However, I would cancel this particular deal - I just think this one is too expensive with to many unknowns. In my recent boat search I was offered a _very_ well maintained (boat club) catalina 25 for 6k.


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

I agree, if you can, cancel the deal and renegotiate the contract. 

I reinforce the recommendations for a survey, boat repairs can add-up quickly. 

Also, if the boat is already in the water, why not a sea trial? That would not be something unusual, and easily done as the boat is ready to go. If the Seller was not allowing a sea-trial post contract and deposit, that is one thing, if the broker led you to believe that a sea trial is unusual, especially with the boat ready at the dock, and with a signed contract and deposit, I would be concerned.

I hope it all works out.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

First off, congrats on the boat, second you got 72 hours to cancel the deal, see if you can get a survey, if the owner has a problem, then walk, there's something he's not telling you.

I can't think of an owner who would not do a see trial, it's a good excuse to go sail, Hell, the PO of the one I just bought, drove out from Colorado on a friday, so we could do a sea trial on a monday, which was nothing more than a good fun sail, brokers, Marine, mechanical and rigging surveyors, we had a blast


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

I gotta say though, my first sailboat I bought without a survey, but I also knew and had a budget to do what I was getting into.


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## tagster (May 7, 2007)

My suggestion? I learned this lesson the hard way, and I learned it recently. Never, ever buy a boat without seeing the son of a ***** out of the water. I did this, and I bought the vessel for tens of thousands of dollars. And when I pulled it out, I found I needed some fairly extensive hull repair.

For smaller boats, you might not be able to be as flexible with the buyer/seller agreement so as to actually dictate things are fixed prior to taking acquisition over the property. But regardless, if you still want it even though you see some serious seals shot around the boat and so on, you can use the damage as bartering material at least.

On larger vessels, I've learned since taking over my boat that buyer seller agreements are pretty common. And you can add stipulations to them, such as getting the matching hatch cover that's missing, or fixing the below water seal that was falling off the boat when she was pulled out of the water...

You need, at very least, liability insurance for marine moorage. Most marinas require large liability policies. Mine is a half million dollars. Also *no* marine insurance underwriters will accept a survey that is more than a year old, so you *must* have a recent survey when purchasing the vessel. Keep in mind, this survey isn't a minor thing - it involves out of water inspection is priced commonly at around $10/$15 per foot. This means a survey for a boat your size, costs about half a boat unit ($500) and it's something you want the previous owner to do. It's commonly a part of selling a boat.


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

If a broker told you "Nobody ever gets a sea trial" RUN FROM THE DEAL. Lots of people (like me, for example) have had sea trials and they are usually written into the contract (along with the survey). It very well could be a scam if they are trying to pressure you into buying without the trial or survey. Let us know what you do! By the way - DON'T LET EMOTIONS MAKE YOUR DECISION!!! It's OK for emotions to be part of the sale, but don't let them make you make a bad decision.


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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

I can't believe how stupid I was. the broker sent me out of the office without a copy of the purchase agreement. 
I had him fax it over this morning. I also have a independent surveyor meeting me at the boat on Thursday at 830am. $375.00-
I am also paying 187.50 to have it hauled out for the survey.
FYI-as per contract:
* The buyer shall notify the selling broker of either the acceptance or rejection of the survey by the Acceptance date noted below(survey date). Buyer understands that rejection of the survey will cause the contract to be void. Seller then has the option to renegotiate the contract, withdraw, or accept other offers. 

*The buyer agrees not to rejecty the vessel unless the survey finds previously undisclosed structural defects amounting to more than 3% of the agreed upon price or $1000 whichever is greater. If buyer rejects, he must provide seller with copy of survey. 

Can anyone interpret those 2 points please?
I would like more advice please. I have thick skin.


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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)




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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

Here is a picture-I hope it shows up. Sorry if it doesn't.


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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

another picture


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

42nd st. ...That is an unbelievably restrictive and biased contract. I repeat...if you have 72 hours to back out of it ...DO SO!!! 
You can always go back with a NEW offer...a NEW contract that is STANDARD and fiar to all parties...and a survey with sea trial.
Oh yeah...make sure you get an outboard mechanic to go over the condition of the motor. That could cost you a couple of grand if it is not right. It is also why you need a sea trial.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> *The buyer agrees not to rejecty the vessel unless the survey finds previously undisclosed structural defects amounting to more than 3% of the agreed upon price or $1000 whichever is greater. If buyer rejects, he must provide seller with copy of survey.


THIS IS NOT NORMAL !!!!!!!!! THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG HERE AND THE BROKER THAT YOU ARE DEALING WITH IS UNETHICAL. Call the broker and tell him that you are backing out of the deal. If he starts harassing you, tell him that you are going to call the broker licensing authority, immediately after you call your attorney.

Think for 48 hours about how badly you want this particular boat. If you still think you want it, then go look at three others of the same make and model. Then go look at it again and enegotiate the deal. If the broker doesn't want to deal with you - relax, because there are THOUSANDS of boats out there that you can buy.


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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

Cam, I do trust you. Please explain why it is biased?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

42ndstreet said:


> No sea trial, no survey. I asked for a sea trial, and he told me no one ever gets a sea trial.


While it is customary to deliver a deposit in order to secure a sea trial, it is the sea trial that seals the deal.

The survey you have to pay for. Your brokerage sounds slimy.


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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

Does the hull # tell me anything?
ctyk2923m82d


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Here was the language from my purchase contract. Note how I had a good amount of time and I could get out of it for any reason:

_1.The BUYER shall have until 5 p.m. of the ___14th_______ day after the effective date of this agreement to investigate the condition and construction of the yacht and its equipment by means of a marine survey and to verify the accuracy of the equipment list attached to this agreement. At this time the BUYER shall give notice to the SELLING BROKER of the BUYER's decision to complete this sale, cancel this sale (regardless of whether any deficiencies have been found during the survey) or request adjustments for deficiencies found during the survey. If the SELLING BROKER has not received such notification by this date, the BUYER shall be deemed to have rejected the YACHT.

A) If the BUYER elects to have the YACHT surveyed, the survey shall be at the BUYER's expense and shall use non-destructive methods unless the SELLER explicitly authorizes other methods.

 B) If the BUYER gives notice of intent to renegotiate the terms of this agreement as a result of deficiencies found in the survey or examination of the inventory, it shall not be construed as an immediate cancellation of this agreement; however, the BUYER will be deemed to have cancelled the sale if renegotiations have not been completed to the BUYER's satisfaction by the settlement date or within __5_days of the SELLING BROKER's receipt of the BUYER's request for adjustments, whichever comes first.

C)If a survey will be performed, the SELLER may stipulate at which boatyard the SELLER is willing to have the YACHT hauled for survey. The SELLER agrees that delivery to and from the boatyard for survey, which the SELLER hereby authorizes, is at the SELLER's sole risk and expense.

_ _D)If the BUYER requests any concessions as a result of survey findings the BUYER agrees to and hereby authorizes release of all survey reports to the BROKERS and the SELLER. The BROKERS and the SELLER shall not share such written survey reports with other prospective buyers without explicit approval from the BUYER._

_4. If this sale is cancelled under the terms of this agreement, the BUYER's deposit will be returned less unpaid survey expenses and/or other expenses incurred against the YACHT by the BUYER or by the BROKERS on behalf of the BUYER._

_ 
_Your contract reminds me of a sleazy used car salesman. You asked our opinion. We suggested you RUN from the deal.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Consensus of the Sailinet crowd seems that you should bail on this purchase... the brokerage sounds like it has some serious ethical problems... Saying that sea trials are never done... hmm...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Does the hull # tell me anything?
ctyk2923m82d

It says it is a Catalina
K=25=model
2923= hull number
82=year
d= month=November

I said your contract was biased for all the reasons Labatt detailed. It is a NON STANDARD brokers contract heavily weighted toward the seller. I've never heard of a 3% or 1000 buck limitation for rejection before and the "no sea trial" is an obvious lie. You need to get out on the boat and test ALL equipment and the engine under load. Would you buy a used car without taking a test drive? Would you buy from a dealer who wouldn't let you?


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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

Good points all...I will sleep on it and keep all in the loop. I still have an appointment on Thursday for the survey. The contract says that if the survey shows one boat unit of structural damage, I can bail on the deal. Under 1000.00, I'm sure I can fix it myself. 
I agree that the broker is shady, but he works for RCR yachts. They are well known in upstate NY with 6 or 7 locations, and lots of boats for sale. I'm sure they used this contract 5-6 times this week. Thanks all again.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

*Umm.. isn't Thursday past the 72-hour back out deadline...*

Also, I would say that there are quite a few problems that can come under the $1000 limit that would be difficult to repair yourself...and you have to remember that the surveyor's estimate of the repairs may not be completely accurate and may only indicate that there is a problem... but not cover the full extent of repairing it.

Since you have a 72-hour backout option, I'd highly recommend you take it.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

42ndstreet, I'm kind of puzzled. You've been told the price you're paying is at the high end of what these boats go for (by several people, IIRC), you've been told, also be several people, that the purchase agreement you signed has unusual language in it, and you've been told by several people that the broker's pulling something funny with their "no sea trial" assertion. And the broker let you walk out the door w/o your own copy of the purchase agreement??? For me, these would've been more than a sufficient number of alarm bells.

Good luck.

Jim


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> I agree that the broker is shady, but he works for RCR yachts. They are well known in upstate NY with 6 or 7 locations, and lots of boats for sale. I'm sure they used this contract 5-6 times this week.


 The fact that there are numerous offices, and that people have heard of them is no indicator of ethical business practices.

I still think that you should forward a copy of the contract to the Yacht Brokers' Association of America YBAA : Yacht Brokers Association of America

They can't do much in the way of maintaining standards if they don't know what is going on out there...

RCR declares itself a member of the organisation. The YBAA website has a "forms generator". I am willing to bet that you'd find a significant number of buyer protection clauses on the standard forms that RCR is not including on theirs...



> YBAA FORMS GENERATOR
> 
> As a benefit of your membership, YBAA provides standardized contractual forms for both U.S. and Canadian use (YBAA Purchase & Sale Agreement; YBAA Acceptance of Yacht Form; YBAA Central Listing Form and YBAA Open Listing Form) to help make the yacht transaction process smooth and hassle-free.
> 
> ...This YBAA Forms Generator program provides members with a convenient, easy-to-use, free online tool to create and maintain the YBAA Forms. Powered by the Secured Marine Trust® ONEtool™ system, the YBAA Forms Generator provides full access for PC users and allows for simple emailing and filing of completed Forms.


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## JimHawkins (Aug 25, 2006)

42ndstreet said:


> *The buyer agrees not to rejecty the vessel unless the survey finds previously undisclosed structural defects amounting to more than 3% of the agreed upon price or $1000 whichever is greater. If buyer rejects, he must provide seller with copy of survey.


Lots of things could be wrong that aren't "structural problems". The engine could be worthless, the electronics could be fried, there could be major leaks... The walking clock is ticking...


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## LaPlaya (Jun 12, 2007)

Please be very cautious....Sounds like a real hard sell..kinda vacuum cleaner salesman type thing...back out if you can and regroup...you are the customer you are buying from them and deserve some respect as well as honesty. I should add that if in good shape that Honda is a great engine.
Good luck
AL


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

42ndstreet - Why don't you have your wife read this thread and then let us know if you get the boat


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi Everyone , My first post . I cant say how great it is to read all this great input from all these old salts . I hope to be a contributing factor to this truly wonderful site . 42nd it sounds like you have more than enough advice so I wont throw my two cents in at this time other than to say its all very good and I wish I had had this many folk looking out for me , prior to a sale.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

42ndstreet, I truely hope this works out for the best, you may find this boat to be just fine, but definitly keep all this great advice filed in the bad of your brain for the next time, as I'm sure there will be a next time, 10footitis only takes about 12 month to incubate.


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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

I will be making a final decision today at work. Let you guys know tonight.
And I do appreciate everyones input.


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## TAK (Jul 14, 2003)

Congrats .. somewhere on the net there is a site for Catalina 25 owners .. find it and get to know those folks.. they can tell you tons about your boat.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TAK-

He hasn't really bought the boat yet... and if you read the thread, you would see that his ownership of said boat is somewhat undetermined at the moment. The broker was using a contract with language that is complete unfair to the buyer, and also told him that "sea trials just aren't done", which is a load of crap. Also, the price on said boat seems a touch high, and when you mix that in with the broker's behavior, the language on the contract and the fact that he didn't get a sea trial or survey... the whole deal reeks...

*As I see it, the consensus of the Sailnet crew, who have responded after reading the thread... is that he should bail on the deal. Catalina 25s are not so rare that he can't find another one nearby in similar or better condition, with a broker that isn't trying to screw him. *


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hello,

I think a lot of you guys are going a little crazy here for no reason. 

First off, regarding the 'sea trial', what did the broker really say, and what did the buyer hear? For example, if you go to a dealer and look at a particular boat, and tell the broker you want to go on a sea trial, the broker will most likely tell you no. If you make an offer, and the offer is accepted, you would be allowed to sea trial the boat during the in water part of the survey. No broker would say no to that, the surveyor would flip out.

Regarding the price, since none of you have seen the boat, how can you state that it's not worth the puchase price? Perhaps it is very clean, in good condition, has extra gear, etc.

The contract seems fine to me. If there is something seriously wrong with the boat the buyer can renogiate the deal. Heck, the buyer can cancel the deal within 72 hours for ANY reason. What else do you want? The other language is most likely to protect the seller and broker from beign 'nickeled and dimed' from the survey results.

I bought a boat last November and sold one in May, so I am quite familiar with the buying and selling process. When I bought my boat (for a price significantly below the asking price), one of the reasons the seller accepted my offer was that I told the broker that I would not use the results of the survey to renogiate the price. Either the owner corrected any serious problems or the deal was off. Same thing when I sold my boat. I told the buyer that if the surveyor found things like missing hose clamps, fuel lines that he didn't like, or other little things, that the buyer was buying a used boat and to expect stuff like that. If there was something serious we would discuss how to resolve it.

One last point, I keep hearing how easy it is to buy a boat. Have you tried to buy a boat lately? It is not easy to find a good boat at a good price. There is a lot of junk out there, and a lot of overpriced boats too.

Good luck,
Barry


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

BarryL said:


> Hello,
> 
> I think a lot of you guys are going a little crazy here for no reason.


Well, you know what they say about "opinions" 



BarryL said:


> First off, regarding the 'sea trial', .... No broker would say no to that, the surveyor would flip out.


Would they? IIRC, for _all_ of the surveyors I talked to, accompanying us on the sea trial was both optional and, in most cases, an extra charge. So I doubt any of them would've "flipped out" if I'd said there was to be no sea trial.



BarryL said:


> Regarding the price, since none of you have seen the boat, how can you state that it's not worth the puchase price? Perhaps it is very clean, in good condition, has extra gear, etc.


I don't believe anybody said that, per se. I believe what's been said was "that's at the high end."



BarryL said:


> The contract seems fine to me. If there is something seriously wrong with the boat ...


Define "seriously." Everybody here define "seriously."

Regardless of how _you_ define "seriously": The contract appears to contain non-YBAA-standard language.



BarryL said:


> I bought a boat last November and sold one in May, so I am quite familiar with the buying and selling process. When I bought my boat (for a price significantly below the asking price), one of the reasons the seller accepted my offer was that I told the broker that I would not use the results of the survey to renogiate the price. Either the owner corrected any serious problems or the deal was off.


I went you "one better" than that: I told 'em I wasn't going to use the survey results to either try to nickel-and-dime the seller to death, beat him up on the price, or attempt to get him to fix deficiencies. My logic: The asking price was fair and any deficiencies found that would kill the deal for me would probably be too extensive to make it worth his time to repair. So it was going to be a "go or no-go" situation.

The facts remain: _According to the buyer_, the broker said sea trials were not normally done (which is blatantly false), the asking price _is_ at the high end of the scale for this boat, the contract _does_ contain unusual language and the broker _did_ let the buyer out of his/her office w/o their (the buyer's) copy of the contract.

Colour me skeptical. ISTM there's no point in _having_ warning bells if you're just going to ignore them anyway .

Jim


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## MysticSkipper (Jul 16, 2007)

SEMIJim said:


> .Colour me skeptical. ISTM there's no point in _having_ warning bells if you're just going to ignore them anyway .


The trouble is, my warning bell goes off everytime I reach for my wallet then it goes off again if I start to walk away from a good deal. Based on the advice in this thread, I would probably walk on this deal, but I don't think the buyer is at great risk of getting a bad deal, just a higher risk than is necessary.


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

BarryL said:


> The contract seems fine to me. If there is something seriously wrong with the boat the buyer can renogiate the deal. Heck, the buyer can cancel the deal within 72 hours for ANY reason. What else do you want? The other language is most likely to protect the seller and broker from beign 'nickeled and dimed' from the survey results.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to one of the buyer's prior posts, the contract contained the following language: "The buyer agrees not to reject the vessel unless the survey finds previously undisclosed structural defects amounting to more than 3% of the agreed upon price or $1000 whichever is greater. If buyer rejects, he must provide seller with copy of survey." To me, that doesn't sound like he can cancel the contract for any reason.


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## MysticSkipper (Jul 16, 2007)

The 72 hour thing is only true in certain circumstances (door to door sales by federal law, states have various statutes) and there is a widespread misconception that you can sign any contract and walk within 72 hours. Not so:

Can I cancel a contract within three days of signing it?

And yes, I said I would walk if I was the buyer. Until the money changes hands and the title or registration is changed there is some flexability whether it is stated/legislated or not.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

From the language in the contract, that Labatt has pointed out... with a purchase price of $8,000... that means that the boat must have a structural defect that is valued at 13% of the boat's value in order to cancel the contract... since 3% of $8,000 is less than $1000. 

Also, why is the buyer obligated to provide the broker/seller with a copy of the survey, if they find something that warrants rejecting the boat. Many surveyors restrict disclosure of their survey to help protect them from competing against themselves. 

If the buyer's surveyor found something, and the seller/broker want to know exactly what it is—ie see the survey, they should compensate the surveyor for his work. They didn't commission the survey, and have no right IMHO to the results.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Funny thing about surveys. One boat I was looking at had the survey sold three different times to three different interested parties by the previous interested parties. The sale for that boat is STILL pending.


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## timangiel (Sep 8, 2006)

Did you actually pay the entire price of the boat yet or did you just make a down payment and sign a contract? It sounds like if you walk away without the surveyor finding something wrong (something expensive) you may have trouble getting your money back.  Good luck.


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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

Time to Move this thread along!!
I called him up today and told him I wanted to take the boat out or cancel the contract. We sailed this afternoon for about 2 hours. Not one tear in the lines, stays, lifelines. Electric outboard started right up. Sails were in great shape. I like the boat. I don't like the broker. I have the surveyor coming Thursday morning. Again, if he finds 1000.00 worth of structural damage to the boat, I have options. I know some of you don't like that part. I ain't too thrilled, but he can't keep the boat off the market for a week, then have me not buy because the mattress is too firm. 
Anyway, I got the boat! I feel much better now that I have sailed it. 

I also faxed a copy of the contract to Yacht Brokers Association of America. Thanks to whomever gave me the link. 
So now that I have the boat(Saturday), what comes next? 
Is there a checklist I should go over? 
I will call my insurance agent in the morning.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

42nd...good luck with the rest of it. Glad the sail/motor went well...that considerably reduces the risks. You know the possible pitfalls now and you're a big boy...so just do what seems right to you and you'll be fine.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Glad the sea trial went well... keep us posted on the survey results, and good luck.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

I understand why the survey is required as it is the proof to engage the clause to end the deal. It would have been better to have had an out without the dollar figure to jump over but on the other hand it is not too hard to hit a grand in repairs on a boat. Boat dollars don't go very far and a couple of loose screws can cost a grand to fix at the more expensive yards (and I am only partly kidding as most of you know). If the survey ends up that clean then it is really good news on a boat you like. Hell, I spilled more than 8 grand in drinks in my life. ENJOY!!
pigslo


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Glad to hear your sea trial went well. Good luck on the survey!

Jim


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

pigslo said:


> I understand why the survey is required as it is the proof to engage the clause to end the deal. It would have been better to have had an out without the dollar figure to jump over but on the other hand it is not too hard to hit a grand in repairs on a boat. Boat dollars don't go very far and a couple of loose screws can cost a grand to fix at the more expensive yards (and I am only partly kidding as most of you know). If the survey ends up that clean then it is really good news on a boat you like. Hell, I spilled more than 8 grand in drinks in my life. ENJOY!!
> pigslo


The $1000 is for 'previously undisclosed structural defects', there could be many kinds of 'defects' or problems that are not 'structural'.


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## Pamlicotraveler (Aug 13, 2006)

Dang...I had missed this thread all along and just read through it. 

This should be Sailnet's model post. A guy came with valid concerns, admitted his mistakes and was not ridiculed, was given good advice by seasoned sailors, made an informed decision that resulted in a satisfactory outcome. What's better than that?


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

"What's better than that?"


sliced bread

pigslo


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Pulled pork with hot sauce! (g)


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Trappey's hot sauce at that!


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## LakeEscape (Jul 18, 2007)

*Kudos for this board*

I am new to SailNet and I too am so impressed with this thread. I belong to couple of a cigar boards and the bickering and slamming that goes on can be down right rude at times. This is a welcome change.

I'll take the pulled pork ... and a Belacosa Fino. 

ps. I just pulled a San Juan 23 that I recently bought, without a full survey, but I knew there was a bit of workto be done. No real suprises, except for the rusted out centerboard. She has a great hull and deck. Most of the work has been new hardware and some joinery work to make her like new again. And that has been alot of fun.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

42ndstreet said:


> So now that I have the boat(Saturday), what comes next?
> Is there a checklist I should go over?


You could get the USCG Auxiliary to do a free safety and equipment inspection to make sure all your gear is up to date, onboard and functioning

Here's a start

http://www.safetyseal.net/what_is_vsc.asp


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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

If you could see my face, you would see the biggest smile a guy could have!!!
The survey and pullout were over half a boat unit, but it was money well spent. Survey went well. A few wiring issues. Looks like he shopped a little too much at Home Depot, and not enough at Westmarine. We pick the boat up Saturday morning. Thanks again for everyone holding my feet to the fire about the survey and sea trial. I will sleep very well tonight.

PS-expect more questions now that I actually own a boat LOL


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Saweet! Welcome aboard.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Congratulations... and look forward to hearing the issues, and seeing photos of the new to you boat.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

LakeEscape...Welcome...Anytime you are in Manteo I'll save a Swisher Sweet for ya! (G) 

42nd...congrats and Fair Winds!


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

Wonderful News!

Rudys in Owsego, best place on earth for a fish sammich & real soft ice cream.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Glad we could keep your hooves.. er feet to the fire. That survey you have will help you sleep at night knowing what you have and it also ends up as a very good reference point and checklist over the years. (that's right, I said years and I don't mean dog years) I recently sold my boat after 8-1/2 of ownership and the list of deficiences on the survey had all been fixed. Enjoy yourself!!
pigslo


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

Welcome aboard, and I would reiterate that the Catalina 25 is a great little starter boat. I'm assuming you've found the catalina owners association etc on the web, there is a very active owners group.

One last piece of advice. Just go to BoatUS or one of the other marine insurers. I spent a whole month dinking around with Allstate, who first told me that yes they could do it, then required a written survey (which I had already and was fine) Then the finally ended up telling me they didn't insure boats under 10k value. Meanwhile my marina was harassing me to get insurance. Called BoatUS and had insurance 3 days later.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

42ndstreet,

Whoo hoo!  Congratulations! Glad to hear the survey went well 

tenuki,

We just called our little, local home insurer, via our agent, and, after some questions back-and-forth (she had to call the company as she'd never done a sailboat before), she said "No problem." Wife called again this afternoon and told her we may need to start the insurance as early as this week (if the survey goes well) and she again said "No problem. It's all set up."

We'll even end up with a discount on our homeowner's insurance, for having multiple things insured with them now.

Jim


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie said:


> LakeEscape...Welcome...Anytime you are in Manteo I'll save a Swisher Sweet for ya! (G)


Cherry tip? Outlaws!?


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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

Thanks guys!!
We are closing in the morning. We have a ride up to Sodus Bay. It will just be my wife and I. No kids, no dogs [email protected]%**
9 days to get aquainted with the boat. I need a second anchor for the boat. I already have the CQR, I was thinking about a danforth.
Well, I will see you all in a week. 
Oh, I got a nice slip in Cayuga Lake also. I didn't know that boating was so expensive. ROFL!!!!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Glad to hear all went well ! Enjoy !


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

42ndstreet said:


> I didn't know that boating was so expensive. ROFL!!!!


Trust me, you haven't figured out yet how expensive... You'll be ROFC before long!


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## 81Catalina25 (Jul 24, 2007)

I also have a Catalina 25 (1981). It is a great boat especially for a first boat. I agree with all the other posters, if you can get out of the deal then do so and then get a survey I would also suggest that you get it lifted to have the bottom inspected (you have to agree to pay for it but it's worth it) and a sea trial(if for no other reason than to see the specifics for the boat). 

You will likely need a survey to get insurance anyway. 

Like I said the Catalina 25 is a great boat and if you can get the survey it should provide you with a great experience with sailing.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

We bought our newest boat from a Marina in Sodus. Paid for a survey and still found some problems (although small and easily repaired)
First, get insurance. It's not just for your boat, but also for liability Very important
I suggest having the marina step the mast for this season. And be there when they do. Watch and ask questions. There are a lot of tricks to being certain that lines and stays are in the correct positions when the mast comes down and before it goes back up. If a line ends up on the wrong side of the spreaders after you have it up, it is nearly impossible to fix unless you take the stick down again. Amd that is never much fun
Also, do not scrimp, forget, or reuse cotter pins or rings. The stress on the stays is amazing and if a pin falls out can easly snap the mast in two. Very dangerous
Do you live near Sodus? If so, then winter storage at the marina in the cradle is prob worth the expense. It would cost a lot more to buy a trailer. They will store the cradle in the summer and, if you live close enough, you can stop by in winter to check or perform maintainance


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have had two Catalina 30s and now am the proud owner of an o4 Cat. 34.
I can't imagine buying a boat without a survey.
I totally agree with Camaraderie. Cancel the deal and start over contingent on survey and sea trial. Critical repairs should be deducted from the sale price.
If seller doesn't agree move on.


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

The one thing that strikes me most in this thread is the tendency to make a deal without doing adequate research beforehand. Most boaters I know take very good care of their boats and hate to see them go. Doing the research beforehand can prevent a lot of bad feeling afterward as most owners want what they can get for their boats but are also not trying to rip off new boaters.

I would absolutely hate to go through the whole pain of selling and then have someone cancel a contract because they changed their mind. Most owners are probably honest and knowledgable enough that if you ask the proper questions up front they will not only tell you what is right with the boat but also what needs doing.

It is definitely a buyers market now - especially in Canada with the current exchange rate. Old boats are old and getting cheaper. BUT --- once you have agreed on a purchase price unless there is something that was not revealed wrong with the boat I would consider it unethical to cancel and then renegotiate the deal.

Enjoy your boat. 25 feet is an ideal size for getting into sailing and boat ownership. Boats are fun but the $8000 you paid to buy it is only the start. You will have paid another $8000 in cost of ownership, upgrades, etc... before the first few seasons are done. You will groan with every dollar spent but should always enjoy having the boat!

Regards

Mike

Full Tilt 2


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## 81Catalina25 (Jul 24, 2007)

Congratulations and welcome to the Catalina 25 family. We love the boat. I agree with the post that suggested you connect up with the Catalina 25 Owner's site (you can get to it through the main Catalina Yachts site). There are lots of tips, pictures and enhancements that people have made to their boats. 

Enjoy your new Fiberglass Whole In The Water Into Which You Through Money. It is expensive but when you are out on the water, with the wind and sun enjoying a fantastic sail you will know why you do it. 

Cheers,


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hope your new love interest provides you with many years of pleasure
or at least until the bigger boat bug bites you. Enjoy.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

42ndStreet!

Congrats on your new boat! I'm glad everything went well on the survey and sea trial! As for the insurance issue- I recommend Progressive! It helps just having a survey, AND they have great rates for boats. We have a 30'er that had no survey, but they were terrific about it and the insurance was dirt cheap! (Liability is very important..) We switched to USAA when we bought the house, but there was not that much of a difference (USAA is very cheap and only available to government employees.)

Good luck and have a blast with your new boat! I can tell from the picts you posted that she is a beautiful boat! If you need assistance with any restoration/projects, this is the place to post, as there are a ton of knowledgeable people here!

Chris 
US 30' Wu-Wei
http://www.diysailor.com


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

42ndstreet said:


> I already have the CQR,


Close Quarters Rifle??


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Whereabouts on Cayuga Lake? Our family had cottages near Union Springs (NE side), and the happiest days of childhood were spent there, sailing and fishing. When the wind's from the NW or SW, that lake gets some surprising chop & wicked gusts.

Congratulations on your new boat. It looks like a sweetheart.


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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

Bob, we are in Hibiscus Harbor. Next to Union Springs.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Know it well. We used to sail up there to look at the big cruisers, the wooden trimaran, and to smell the flowers. We lived at Farley's Point, about 2 miles down the eastern side from you. IIRC, Hibiscus has some tight-radius turns in its little maze!


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