# Too good to be true??? Help me ASAP!!



## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

Hello fellow sailnetters,

So I finally found this boat,, seems too good to be true.

25 foot Catalina Sailboat !

I went and self surveyed this boat myself for about an hour and a half today. It really does look like the pics and has all the things i need and wouldnt ever need. Roller furling, fridge, vhf, bimini, autopilot, depth finder and tons of tools and extras. Met the guy seems pretty nice and he told me he sailed to the keys not too long ago. It has all these extras and the thing is, im confused as to why the cost is what it is. Is this sketchy? Like I said I checked most of the configurations myself from standing rigging to seacocks to electrics to hull (above water) condition. Im comfortable with the minor cosmetics I would need to do to get her "perfect."

It doesnt come with the outboard which im fine with, as It will be just a project boat / liveaboard til I can find myself a nice OB.

So the marina its docked at doesnt have the ability to take er out of the water for a full professional survey.

He offered to let me take her out on a test drive.

How can I get her surveyed without the ability to outhaul?

He also offered to sail it to the marina (that does have a forklift) that I will be docking it at, and just uninstall the OB and he will take it home.

Im thinkin theres gotta be somethin up--- maybe an enormous amount of blisters? Or keel damage? Something I cant see. Or maybe Im just overthinking. I really want this boat but dont want to jump the gun.

Its a fixed Keel model Catalina 25 1982
excellent sail and running rigging condition.

Should I just test drive her myself and let that be the last of my prepurchase inspections?

Help me out soon guys I dont want this to pass by it could be my chance, because its right in my price range

Thanks a bunch!


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Looks on the low end of reasonable, but not outrageous. The issue is between insurance, and dockage I at least am spending $3,000 a year on a boat I have been trying to sell for a year. I could see asking 1/2 price just to avoid future costs on it.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

$4k for a thirty-year-old Cat25 without and engine seems reasonable to me.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Ditto... Cat 25s are everywhere. No mention of trailer... Yep looks to be in fair shape. So price seems lower than say the $5000 it might go for otherwise, and yep marina fees could easily drive the owner to sell less.

Blisters are a pain, but not going to kill you if it has them... My bet is, it doesn't have them, or only has a few.

Thing I don't see is this a fixed or swing keel. If it's a swing keel, I'd want to have it surveyed/pulled. The swing mechanism needs regular maintenance. If it's fixed, well about the only things you'd know from it is if it has blisters. Assume you have to do a bottom job, and you'd likely be fine, just check keel bolts, and chain plates/bulkheads. If the sails are usable, sounds like a decent deal.

So wait, you're going to live on a 25? You 5'4" or less? You may wind up permanently hunched over spending a winter on the 25.

Oh and get an outboard, 6hp or more.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I'm going to move this thread into the General Discussion area. Good luck with your decision, Jay.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Make a deal for a price you consider fair, subject to haul/survey at your marina. Pay a deposit with an adequate acceptance time (IMHO use the standard YBAA P&S, do a search). Have the owner bring the boat to your marina, you pay for the haul and survey.

If the survey finds issues, renegotiate or terminate the deal. If the deal is terminated, the boat goes back in the water and departs.

If you keep the deal, you can now paint the bottom as needed and be set for a year, and rest comfortably knowing just what you bought.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Plywood keel sump prone to rot until 1986 would be the one deal killer ?


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

It's floating, so it must be seaworthy :laugher:laugher

It looks in pretty nice shape, I have been searching for a boat myself and have had more than one perosn say "make me an offer, I promise I wont be insulted, I just need to move on from it"....

So, good luck


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

I paid a hair more for a 27ft Cal with an Atomic 4, just a few months ago. It's in "good condition for its age," which your boat appears to be from the photos.

My knowledge is limited to compulsive reading of the boat section in the Mid-Atlantic Craigslist since March, but your deal seems to be about right in the current market. If you looked it over yourself and were satisfied enough to ask why the price was so low, then I'd say this is worth pulling the trigger on, barring anything uncovered in a survey.


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

Thanks guys

its not a swing keel model which i am very happy about.

Sailing fool sounds like a good idea. I know surveys usually dont report their findings until a few days later, so itll be on stands for a while. in the meantime ill set up a p&s with the guy before the final transaction. Seller cant up the price if survey man finds its worth more market value right? or is that the point of a p&s.


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## algee (Feb 28, 2010)

I would be sure the seller has a clean Florida title. Don't fall for the old " I lost the title but will give you a bill of sale" it doesn't work in Florida, no matter what the seller says.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

True, you usually don't get a report for a couple of days but that doesn't mean you can't stand behind the guy when he's surveying and ask all the questions you have. At the end of the survey, you will know everything that will be in the written report.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

chuck53 said:


> True, you usually don't get a report for a couple of days but that doesn't mean you can't stand behind the guy when he's surveying and ask all the questions you have. At the end of the survey, you will know everything that will be in the written report.


Agree. When I bought my boat we had an agreement written on a piece of paper-and signed by buyer and seller (had sales price with purchase based on survey- survey paid by buyer). I had the boat pulled for the survey. Within an hour the surveyor found nothing major so I told the seller I would buy the boat. Left the boat on the hard for next 4 days and I sanded/painted hull as well as replaced all seacocks. Did not get survey report hard copy for another week.
Regards


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

jaymckay said:


> Thanks guys
> 
> its not a swing keel model which i am very happy about.
> 
> Sailing fool sounds like a good idea. I know surveys usually dont report their findings until a few days later, so itll be on stands for a while. in the meantime ill set up a p&s with the guy before the final transaction. Seller cant up the price if survey man finds its worth more market value right? or is that the point of a p&s.


The surveyor works for you (and is paid for by you). You get the results, not the seller. If you decide not to buy the boat, the seller may ask for a copy of the survey, but that's entirely up to you. Often the price will come down after a survey since there are typically things not noticed or not disclosed by the seller. Regardless, the results of a survey are your property.


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## Sea Dawg (Jun 26, 2012)

It'd be good to know if it's been hauled recently. Other than that, check below all thru hulls, inspect the bilges and make an offer to include the outboard. The cost to outfit any or all of what's on there is all going to be avoided and would cost a bunch. You'd be wanting to buy all of that except maybe the autopilot. The asking price in current market is about right, but it IS a well outfitted boat and that usually goes with a boat worth keeping.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

How capable are you at a self survey? Can you identify serious structural issues? Wet core? Stressed chain plates? Blown sails? Improperly bedded hardware? Etc? If so, you may be good to go. If not, sailingfool's advice is the way to go and the standard for buying a boat. You have to keep in mind that any one big surprise, or even a few that add up, on a boat of this value can make it literally worth less than zero. That's why so many are abandoned at marinas.

Not saying this one is a dud or a gem, just that you need to know your ability to tell the difference. 

Hope it works out. Good luck.


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## Nielsen01 (Jul 15, 2012)

*Once in a while its not too good to be true...*

We just purchased our first real boat. Bought without setting foot or seeing the boat...
Ready for this one?

Endeavour 32, 1981...
$1500
Miracles do happen.. Although it wasnt necessary, we just finished with the 2nd coat of barrier. Next trip finish the barrier and on to bottom paint. Next week she gets wet..... Sailnet is Awesome........
Good luck......Cheers.

Jack &	Penny


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

People do win the lottery every week. Not everyone.


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

Hahaha nice!

Im just gonna spend the money and get her hauled.
Im not one to be lucky at things like this so ima play it safe.
who knows i might be able to knock the price down after it, I couldnt get the vhf to pick up signal, or the head to properly pump. 

Im no expert at surveys, ha, so im not gonna trust myself.

p.s. how many of you believe that changing the name is bad luck?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

It's bad luck not to believe in bad luck.


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## gulftex (Mar 8, 2008)

hire adiver to check out bottom
gulftex
34 catalina hull#13


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## Marcel D (Apr 15, 2012)

The boat looks really nice I agree with the price, 4000 to 5000 dollar range seams about right. I would get her hauled and take a good look at the bottom, keel and rudder. If it looks good jump she might be the boat you have been waiting for.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

If you do get her hauled and surveyed, just have a word with the surveyor at the end, tell him/her what you're paying, and he/she will probably tell you there and then if it's a good price, plus a quick summary of any big stuff they find. The paper survey a week or so later will usually read like a horror story as they pretty much give you everything that would need doing to get it to an "as-new" condition, which on a 30 year old boat is likely to be a long list regardless of how well the boat has been looked after.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

Oh, and another thing. My insurance company required me to submit a plan to fix the things noted in the survey as "Essential Repairs." They insured it right away, but I had to give them a plan. Keep this in mind as it may affect your budget in the short term.


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## CarbonSink62 (Sep 29, 2011)

I just bought an 82 C25 fixed keel with the original OB (so essentially, no OB) for about the same price. It's a good deal, but not so great that you need to worry that it is stolen or rotten.

Boats sit on the market for months/years now. If the owner is looking at $800-1,000 to haul and store a boat worth maybe $6-8k they might be very willing to let it go for cheap.


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## NaviGsr (Sep 17, 2009)

4k is a lot to pay for that boat with no engine. It looks in good shape and has a lot of features/updates for that model, but I would expect to get an engine for that price. 

Remember that most boats in good condition will survey OVER the agreed purchase price in the current market. 

I don't mean to be negative, the C-25 is a fantastic boat and the fin keel sails the best!


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

OK GUYS THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP!!! NOW I HAVE ONE LAST PROBLEM.....

I just got word that I am hired at my new job which works me from 7 to 530 mon thru friday and every other saturday. I start monday NEXT WEEK and it is tuesday here. The service dock here doesnt have availability to outhaul until next week on wednesday. NO TIME AT ALL to have her outhaled and surveyed during the day. However I'M free daily all this week...

Hes willing to let me make a down payment and sign her over, following monthly payments.

Should I do a fine tuning self survey one last time, and take her out on a test myself within this week? (Minnewaska I know where your coming from. Theres LOTS more about surveying than quick glances at things. Ive been reading Don Caseys Sailboat Maintanence manual religiously and all these forums to help me. )

Im thinking the head just needs a rebuild kit, and the owner said vhf radios dont pick up signal if the batts arent fully charged. 

I want to make a list of things that I seem unfit to respectfully/hopefully barter with the guy on price. Plus i just calculated docking/slip fees and insurance fees and realized Id end up broke til payday.

This is a devirginizing experience and Im not rich, but this is also the biggest thing Ive wanted to do with my life.

Ive turned to the wonderful, experienced folks here on sailnet for advice. I need to make a decision soon and not having any sailing buddies to turn to, you guys and gals are all I got!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

jaymckay said:


> OK GUYS THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP!!! NOW I HAVE ONE LAST PROBLEM.....
> 
> I just got word that I am hired at my new job which works me from 7 to 530 mon thru friday and every other saturday. I start monday NEXT WEEK and it is tuesday here. The service dock here doesnt have availability to outhaul until next week on wednesday. NO TIME AT ALL to have her outhaled and surveyed during the day. However I'M free daily all this week...
> 
> ...


Do you plan to live on this boat right away so you can offset boat expenses with the saved living expenses? Remember a boat will cost you about double what you expect and even if you are skilled with your hands, boat work will take you 3 times longer than you expect. Make sure you have enough time and money set aside for these over runs.

Generally in my opinion, if somthing does not look right or feel right, somthing is wrong. If you have been reading about boat inspection and have a good handle on mechanical things, I think you could self inspect and find any major problems. One thing might be difficult is the hull/kell joint and connection. Post some pics of inside the bilge and of the keel bolts and you can get some opinions. Don't jump into this to fast- there are lots of good cheap boats in Florida.
Regards


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

I will post pics for you guys when i go check her out again. Last time I looked there were no rust stains or major corrosion issues. But your eyes are better than mine. I will take pics and post all things I find sketchy


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

jaymckay said:


> I will post pics for you guys when i go check her out again. Last time I looked there were no rust stains or major corrosion issues. But your eyes are better than mine. I will take pics and post all things I find sketchy


Cool. Try to take some pics of mast, mast step (deck or keel?). Chain Plates (inside and outside). Standing rigging including turnbuckels and wires. Keel bolts, running rigging, deck.

Go around the deck and tap with say a coin. If you hear a no solid sound but hear a thump sound, that could indicate a wet core and rot. Look for any soft spots in the deck as you walk. Look for rust stains around deck bedded fittings.

Good Luck


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Just another comment. If you plan to live aboard, is the heigh below deck ok for you? You do not want to be bending over all the time I would not think.

Also, is this what they call a pop top? If so, is this a blue water capable boat (if that is what you plan to do)? I know nothing about pop top but could imagine big leaks if off shore and I would think it effects the basic strength of the hull. For me, even sailing to Bahamas in bad weather could be a problem.

Others chime in please.

Regards


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Cal 25 Common Problems

Above is a good site.

You may want to contact caltalina as I think some of the early chain plates were problems, and the redesigned new ones that are stronger- not sure if that effects your boat.


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## Frenzy (Jun 27, 2001)

Offer him $2800 cash and have the cash on you at the time of the offer, I bet you a beer he jumps at it. If he is paying monthly for the slip he wants to sell out now!

Most older boats finally sell for about 60% of asking price after sitting on the market for 6-8 months. With a boat that is worth $4k if he is stuck with it and needs to pay for storage or a slip he will be in negative value after 8 Months.

My current boat a Pearson 32 in wonderful shape sat on the hard for 14 months at $20k, I waited until the yard sent out the winter storage bills and then contacted the broker with an offer and a check for the full amount of my offer. $6500 as is where it stands, the owner accepted in three hours. He also asked me to stop by the house to pick up all the gear, it took 2 trips with a station wagon to get all the gear to the boat. The boat has had an insurance survey since I purchased $24k. 

It is a buyers market, be strong.

BTW, the VHF should work if it turns on, keep your eye on the seller.

Frenzy


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

here is a pearson 30 near you:
30 Foot Pearson Wanderer Sailboat


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

Frenzy said:


> Offer him $2800 cash and have the cash on you at the time of the offer, I bet you a beer he jumps at it. If he is paying monthly for the slip he wants to sell out now!
> 
> Most older boats finally sell for about 60% of asking price after sitting on the market for 6-8 months. With a boat that is worth $4k if he is stuck with it and needs to pay for storage or a slip he will be in negative value after 8 Months.
> 
> ...


haha ill take you up on that bet! Ill bring the cash with me because he told me he's just been too busy trying to open up his new bar. fair chance he just doesnt want to pay slip.

thats great its makin me start to second guess.. maybe im just too eager

Casey1999; yes it is a pop top. i thought about how it would effect deck structure and strength.. but thats what gives her the headroom.. 
wow look at that a great deal... at the same time, id have to sail it all the way around florida.. im still a noob. maybe i could drive them back to tampa? haha..

the bigger the boat the more costly as well...
i dont plan on livin on her til shes all fixed up and i see fit.

i want to start out a lil smaller so i can get my hands on the helm and gain experience.. there was somethin that drew me to her too.

true,,, i want to sail to the bahams but ill stick to the keys for now

keep the posts comin!


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## Frenzy (Jun 27, 2001)

I think the point that Casey1999 is trying to make that there are millions of boats in your price range. If you are looking for a weekender than the 25 is fine. If you are looking for a place to live for a year or two I would say a 30'+ would be more livable.


Every boat yard in the state has boats that they have take ownership because of non payment, they don't advertise these boats and often can be had for the past due storage fees. The yards call people looking for these boats bottom dwellers but if you are good with your hands you can take one of these and fix it up. With the current state of the economy there have been some nice boats that people have just walked away from, if you have the time you can will the lottery!

Frenzy


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Can you afford to take the gamble? That's your decision, but your description of your situation seems like you would be broke if there was a fatal error here. Then you might not be on the water for a long long time.

Here's my risk assessment introspective. I ask myself, if I should come up on the losing side of this bet, would I say it was worth the risk or would I say I should have known better. That usually helps me sort out when a risk is worth taking.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

A guy I know spend 3,500 last year for a c25 including outboard.
Sailed it for a year and traded up.


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## LongTallSailor (Jun 17, 2011)

I wouldn't mind being called a bottom dweller if I could come up with a Catalina 470 for pennies on the dollar.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

Best advice my dad ever gave me: no deal is too good to pass up.

Second best advice: after you make your offer, whoever talks first loses.


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

You guys are right, I shouldnt jump on this because i see it as a great deal. Sure it has all the fancy things, but those dont matter if something serious comes up and i have to deal with it... 

I never thought about buying a boat without a motor until i saw this. 

The boats gorgeous, I tend to fall for gorgeous things. im only looking skin deep and realize later I couldve had a better chance getting a fully operable hunk of vessel with still minor repairs.

Im gonna throw an offer to the guy and explain to him I cant be broke and dependent that this will all work out. Sure I plan on livin aboard, but thats not til i fix it up to my standards. This is just all so convenient that the vessel is so close by and I have a free transportation to my marina...... But after that, Im stuck saving more to look for a motor.

I asked him to let me get one last self survey in and see what is in operable condition and what isnt. (In hopes I could barter,,) he hasnt replied yet.


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## SeaQuinn (Jul 31, 2012)

Maybe you would be better off waiting until you get a few paychecks in and then making your decision. In my experience things always end up costing more than you expect and with boats you should always have a reserve fund for the unexpected that needs to be fixed ASAP.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SeaQuinn said:


> ......things always end up costing more than you expect.....


Always, always, always.............


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Always, always, always.............


Especially women and boats.


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

this is getting ridiculous but i really want this boat... talked to the guy and did another little survey just now...

offered the 2800 cash .. he did not budge.. he really wants me to make monthly payments.. he offered 2800 down and 100/mo. for the next year. title in hand when i give the 2800 and "trust" that i will pay the rest accordingly.. sighhhh.. dont think he wants to go lower. but the structure of her is great.. absolutley no stress cracks, solid hull.. barely any rust on any stanchions/ excellent bedding.

however i told a relative of my new future purchase and theyre willing to help me out. im takin her out on a sea trial tomorrow and i really dont want to have monthly payments with this guy.. i will offer him 3500 cash.. and i can keep it at the slip there.


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)




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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

I assume those are the keel bolts (they look relatively corrosion free which is good). Tap lightly with a hammer and you should hear a faint solid ring sound. It would be good to dive the boat and look at the keel/hull joint. Look for any hairline cracks. Look at the rudder also. You probably need to wipe the hull with a piece of carpet to clean off the slime to see these. Probably won't be able to see small cracks but hopefully the big stuff.

Decission is up to you. Ask yourself if it rained for a week could I live on this boat?

Try to sea trial in winds at least 15 knots and hopefully up to 20.

Good Luck.


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## Frenzy (Jun 27, 2001)

jaymckay said:


> this is getting ridiculous but i really want this boat... talked to the guy and did another little survey just now...
> 
> offered the 2800 cash .. he did not budge.. he really wants me to make monthly payments.. he offered 2800 down and 100/mo. for the next year. title in hand when i give the 2800 and "trust" that i will pay the rest accordingly.. sighhhh.. dont think he wants to go lower. but the structure of her is great.. absolutley no stress cracks, solid hull.. barely any rust on any stanchions/ excellent bedding.
> 
> however i told a relative of my new future purchase and theyre willing to help me out. im takin her out on a sea trial tomorrow and i really dont want to have monthly payments with this guy.. i will offer him 3500 cash.. and i can keep it at the slip there.


That's because he thinks you are in love with it. You may be showing to much emotion, that is a tell that he can ask anything he wants.

Frenzy


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

TRUE THAT my friend frenzy

im stayin firm...


I dont care. there will be even bigger more gorgeous boats if i wait...

lemme take her out for a trial as wind speeds barely exceed 5 or 6 knots tomorrow with gusts at about 10 to 11

sunday i hope to try her out.. winds higher

that will be the final point.. im stayin at 3500 cash firm.. thats ALMOST 90% askin.. I see that as fair considering that the genoa needs restitching and head rebuild kit PLUS head sink replacement, and no motor ......yada yada


thx to you guys i know to not just give in.

im young and SEEM vulnerable . haHAAA!!!


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

thank u casey


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Good luck. Seems like you've been bitten by the bug. In the four days since you originally posted this thread, you could have had a real survey done, even if abbreviated. Just keep that in mind, if the deal stays on hold.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

So, first you thought that $4000 was too good to be true. Now everything seems to check out, but you won't go above $3500? would you rather the owner had asked $6K for it and settled for $5K?


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

Its a buyers market. Make an offer at half of what he is asking. If he doesn't take it, walk away. There are other boats out there, bigger, better, with engines. If after a month or two you haven't found a suitable boat, go back to this one. It will be there, only at a lower price.

Oh, the vhf reception on low battery excuse? I call BS on that. Any noise heard? Adjust the squech, still silent? Radio is shot, one more reason to walk away. 
Also why is the battery low? Shorted cell?
Gezzz the boats on Craigslist, he is desperate.

Here is a Watkins in your neck of the woods in your price range.
http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/boa/3058377425.html
The guy says he is sick and needs to get rid of the boat. Do him a favor.


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## Frenzy (Jun 27, 2001)

Captainmeme said:


> Its a buyers market. Make an offer at half of what he is asking. If he doesn't take it, walk away. There are other boats out there, bigger, better, with engines. If after a month or two you haven't found a suitable boat, go back to this one. It will be there, only at a lower price.
> 
> Oh, the vhf reception on low battery excuse? I call BS on that. Any noise heard? Adjust the squech, still silent? Radio is shot, one more reason to walk away.
> Also why is the battery low? Shorted cell?
> ...


I like the Watkins, remember for every 2 foot in length you pick up about 30% in interior volume. Plus the Watkins comes with a Jon boat and motor that you could resell for at least $500, offsetting the purchase price.

Frenzy


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

checkin out the watkins today ill take pics.


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## swimnfit (Dec 2, 2008)

Seems to be at least on the surface a fine boat. For information and support Catalina usually has some great owners groups. Here's the link for the 25.

Catalina - Capri - 25s International Association

and

http://catalina.sailboatowners.com/


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## Frenzy (Jun 27, 2001)

OK, so what is the outcome? You buy a boat/home?

Frenzy


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

I let her go.. It was quite a funny story.
I told him I found a sweet deal on another that I could not pass up that seatrial morning.,
(via email)
he then replied some kind words and wished me bad luck on the water.

regardless, I have chosen to save more money and look for a bigger, more substantial boat.

watkins 27s are roomier indeed however this mans temporary house was not up to personal standards (to MY likings) I just felt too big of a project.

Im not settling for less than a 27 now... any suggestions?
I just like 1988Catalina 27

or this one: 1975 Tartan 27 sailboat for sale in Virginia

but I know there are just as great boats out there


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

jaymckay said:


> I let her go.. It was quite a funny story.
> I told him I found a sweet deal on another that I could not pass up that seatrial morning.,
> (via email)


I can understand his response. Courteous is calling the night before sea trial to tell the seller you're not interested. Discourteous is backing out by email on the day of sea trial.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

You don't want to get a reputation for being a bad buyer, or others will hear. It's a very small community.

I would be upset to schedule and prep a sea trial and learn you weren't coming that morning by email. I hope he didn't wait at the boat for a no show and get your email later at home.


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

bljones said:


> I can understand his response. Courteous is calling the night before sea trial to tell the seller you're not interested. Cowardly and discourteous is backing out by email on the day of sea trial.


I just couldnt do it. Thank you for re-informing me of my decision. 
Everyone makes mistakes and Im GLAD you pointed them out for me as I didnt see my wrongdoing.

I will have to live with my decision, It just _wasnt meant to be_ at the last moment in time. 
besides
He gained his money and i lost/ gained nothing.
uke


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

How did he gain his money?
did you forfeit a deposit.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Cowardly is a bit strong, but a phone call would have been more courteous. Not everyone carries their email on their belt.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

It amy be strong, but it may not be wrong. Nobody ever emails somebody local when the deal is hot and they don't want it to get away. My experince has been that one only emails when one is delivering bad news or wants to avoid confrontation.

Come on, have you ever called your boss when you are faking sick, or would you rather text or email your excuse?
You don't do that because you WANT to talk to him/her, right?
I'm not saying jay is a bad guy, I am saying that blowing a seller off by email isn't a classy move.

Sindney, you're right, "There's not much worse than you can call a man than a coward"...and there's not much worse that one man can do for another man than to let cowardice go unremarked. Civilizations fail when failures of civility are ignored. I think Mike Brady said that...or he should have.

Good men sometimes unwittingly do cowardly things, and it is up to other good men to point them out so that they don't do them again. Mike Brady might have said that too.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Cowardly, how?
you're making mountains out of molehills methinks, sidney.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> I can understand his response. Courteous is calling the night before sea trial to tell the seller you're not interested. Cowardly and discourteous is backing out by email on the day of sea trial.


bl - it's none of your business. It's a transaction. If someone wants to walk they walk. Happens all the time. Again, it's none of your business.

Yet you call this newb a coward.

You asked in Welsh's thread why everyone was cool with name-calling, etc. Have you noticed the pattern yet? Let me help. You come in...start beating people down...things go south. What gives you the right to call someone a coward? Are you really all that?

Let me clarify the issue a bit more with an analogy from a former GBCW user who seemed to have a similar attitude...



earthoftomorrow said:


> I am used to respect.
> 
> I have an IQ far above Mensa requirements and my brain needs to work.


Maybe give that brain a little vacation.

Hey, I'm just being honest.

(PS - If you want to know how to do it "right" - look at Minne's post after yours. You don't seem to get it.)


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Smacky, thanks for your input.
Before this pile gets any higher or more odiferous, let's clarify- I did not call the OP a coward, as has been alleged- I said IMO, that the act of emailing the day of sea trial is discourteous and cowardly. Brave men sometimes do cowardly things. 



I didn't "beat the OP down." I wrote two lines. If that's a beat down, then I apparently have more power with a keyboard than anyone ever suspected.



Is it "none of my business"? Maybe bad form and bad practices going unremarked is what causes some, especially newbies, to become known, as Minne puts it, as a "bad buyer" and since this a forum for advice, I offer mine, because I DON'T want this newbie to end up losing a boat he really wants because he inadvertently pisses a seller off.



I've got no problem with honesty, Smack. Here's some right back at you- Some old hands here are concerned with retaining newbies- do you think that this kind of thread hijacking and infighting helps? 
Next time, feel free to send me a pm on how to improve my style, instead of further derailing a thread.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> I've got no problem with honesty, Smack. Here's some right back at you- Some old hands here are concerned with retaining newbies- do you think that this kind of thread hijacking and infighting helps?
> Next time, feel free to send me a pm on how to improve my style, instead of further derailing a thread.


I don't do PMs, especially on this kind of thing. And that's for exactly the reason you mention above. If not-entirely-deserving newbs are getting hammered on by a long-time member here, it's good for those newbs to know that other long-time members (not just mods) have their backs to some degree. That kind of "hijacking" and "infighting" absolutely helps. Otherwise a place becomes a clique. And who wants that?



bljones said:


> Before this pile gets any higher or more odiferous, let's clarify- I did not call the OP a coward, as has been alleged- I said IMO, that the act of emailing the day of sea trial is discourteous and cowardly.


No one took it the way you're now trying to spin it (look at the posts above). So maybe you need to work on your delivery. To wit...



bljones said:


> Is it "none of my business"? Maybe bad form and bad practices going unremarked is what causes some, especially newbies, to become known, as Minne puts it, as a "bad buyer" and since this a forum for advice, I offer mine, because I DON'T want this newbie to end up losing a boat he really wants because he inadvertently pisses a seller off.


So, in reality, you only have this newb's best interest at heart. And you were simply pointing out that _his actions_ could be perceived as "cowardly" in order to help him and other newbs avoid potential heartache in their boat buying endeavors. Sounds like you're actually a really good guy and we just misunderstood your true intent. Maybe next time you should say all that in the beginning.

After all you wouldn't want to be in that camp where...



bljones said:


> Brave men sometimes do cowardly things.


...like picking on newbs and chicks.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

davidpm said:


> How did he gain his money?
> did you forfeit a deposit.


So, back to the thread...jaym, I was wondering about this too.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Oh good lord, smack, don't be such a drama queen. 
I'm not "picking on the kid."
Quit blowing things out of proportion.
if I edit the word "cowardly" out of my post, are you still going to feel that i am "picking on the kid" because the word "discourteous" is still there?


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

So, now Smackdaddy is the rules and etiquette maven? I'm sooooo confused.


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

Interesting thread....wish I had seen it earlier....as a Catalina 25 owner maybe I could have been help to Jay.

What happened to the C25? The ad seems to be gone. I wonder if the owner sold it, or just took down the ad due to a bad experience.

Jay, do you know?


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

dang bljones and smack!!! haha i totally forgot about this until today and all of a sudden its virtual war on my thread!!!!

i dont get offended by being name called over the internet.. although shame on you haha

i was new,, didnt wanna jump in something so serious,, i dunno,, just kinda backed out,, that inner voice whispering "not yet". and this guy PREFERRED emails he personally told me. haha 

haha i love the enthusiasm in all your posts..


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

he gained his money cuz he sold the boat!! almost immediately after. i paid no deposit.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

jaymckay said:


> this guy PREFERRED emails he personally told me.


Thanks for coming back and providing the rest of the story, jay. New information changes the perception of the situation.
I apologize. In light of this new information, your email to bail was neither cowardly nor discourteous.


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## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

Well thanks bl, its nice to know some ppl these days can still hold themselves humbly. Apology accepted


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I've been buying & selling stuff privately quite a bit over the past couple of years and I find ignorant discourtesy to be the majority of responses - probably around 60%.

How tough is is to call and cancel a meet? I can't tell you the number of times I've arranged my schedule or waited around to meet someone and they simply don't show up or call.

Unthinking rudeness seems to be rapidly becoming the new normal.

By the way, I ALWAYS show up when I say I will and I ALWAYS call if I later decide against a purchase after a viewing.


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