# Catalina 400 MKII draft



## rayjanine (May 8, 2006)

Folks:

I am very interested in purchasing a new Catalina 400 MK II (2010 or 2011 model) but not sure about the draft of the shoal draft keel version. Some folks say its 5'4" but the Catalina web site says 5'. Does anyone have a new 400 and actually measured the draft?

Any other comments about this boat would be appreciated such as:

1. Type of mainsail (standard with jacklines or roller rulling with vertical battens)
2. Type of generator and KW (want to run airconditioner on the hook and when the temps get near 100 deg F.)
3. Type of bow thruster and Hp
4. Size of genoa (sail on Great South Bay in NY and winds are usually 10 to 15 knots all summer)

I intend to sail it coastally alot and on occasion go to Bermuda and the Bahamas from Long Island, NY. Also plan on doing the Newport to Bermuda race next year.

Thanks,

Ray


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

CATALINA 400 Mk II SD Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

rayjanine said:


> Folks:
> 
> I am very interested in purchasing a new Catalina 400 MK II (2010 or 2011 model) but not sure about the draft of the shoal draft keel version. Some folks say its 5'4" but the Catalina web site says 5'. Does anyone have a new 400 and actually measured the draft?
> 
> ...


Ray, Hang on until Cruisingdad shows up. He's got a C400 and will surely be able to give you the answers you need as he's pretty much done what you propose with his Catalina.


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## rayjanine (May 8, 2006)

*Incorrect info on sites stating draft of 2010 or 2011 Catalina 400 Mk II Shoal Draft*

Interesting since that site has it at 5.75ft. I have heard also 5.5ft vs the Catalina web site which states 5'. Can someone with a new (2010 or 2011) Catalina 400 shoal draft keel let me know what it actually is?

Thanks,

Ray


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## saillife (Jun 25, 2006)

I'll note that manufacturer specs can lie. I normally figure that the draft is more than what the manufacturer says. Once you load a boat up it sits lower. My boat (83 34' hunter) is ussually listed as having a draft of 4'2" however when I measured it while painting this spring the distance form the waterline stain to the bottom of the boat was 4'8".


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CD, customer on line 2...paging CD... customer on line 2...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Welcome aboard Sailnet and hopefully to the Catalina family. I am the technical editor for the C400. I own HN #289.

What you are asking actually has two answers. I do not know the exact time, but somewhere around Hull Number 307, they changed the boat to better represent the reported draft of 5'4. I can promise you that everything before that is no where near 5'4. More like 5'10 with teh wing. A loaded down cruising boat may even exceed that by an inch or two. But in my opinion, out of the box, your boat is probably going to set 5'10 if a HN before 307ish.

The new 400's, which I have been on, are probably more like 5'4 versus 5. I would be shocked if they were 5 unless Gerry changed the thing again. That is how they fixed teh last draft discrepancy. At HN 307ish, they reconfigured the boat which may have given a shallower draft, but also have it a shallower bilge. Reports are that the newer boats do not point as well and may be a but slower... but that part is hear-say since I am not aware of any real (and fair) races being done. But it might make sense from a design point.

The 400 is absolutely my favorite boat Catalina has made. I have sailed and/or owned or been on most of them. The only other boat I would give a sharp look at is teh 445... but whew they want a pretty penny for that boat. The 400 is fast (I did 9.5 coming across the gulf... that is over hull speed), sure footed (one of teh most sure footed I have been on of any boat), and sea kindly even in a gale. The 400 has no realy inherent issues that I am aware of taht are of concern on the MkII's.

I would keep an eye on the steering cables and sheaves. I would put a screen under the master head shower (they used this rediculous centrif pump with no strainer versus a diaphram with strainer... terrible idea). I have already mentioned the draft issues. She does have a bad prop-walk in reverse - but many boats do. There are a few other little things, but nothing that is a big deal. In fact, this boat has had the fewest issues (and no 'real issues') of ANY boat I have been on. GO check on yachtworld for MKII's and you will find that they have held their value VERY well. I have several people that have told me they are actively shopping for a nice 400, but there is not much on the market, which is true of the MKII's.

It's a graet choice for a boat. We have another 400 owner that often takes his boat to Bermuda. I think you will be very happy with it. Feel free to PM or reply back here if you have any other questions.

Take care,

Brian

PS Since you are buying new, have them raise your bottom about three inches if you are going to be doing any extensive cruising. When you load her down, she will sit lower in the water.

SeaMist IV in the Tortugas...










Snapping a shot of 9.1 in a run across the gulf...










Caught in a gale in gulf...










Quieter days...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Man, CD, you are slacking...it took you three hours to answer the page...


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

I am another 400 owner that would like to chime in....

Brian reckons she has a bad prop walk, I disagree - mine is backs up beautifully and I have the standard fixed prop. I back it into my slip a lot easier than my previous 30 footer.

No need for a bow thruster IMHO.

I love the C400 and was also looking closely at Beneteaus - nearly bought a used 423.

I have just finished a 9 month cruise to the bahamas and the boat was near perfect for that purpose.

/Jorgen
C400 MKII #243


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## rayjanine (May 8, 2006)

*Details on c400 MK ii*

Brian and Jorgen:

Thanks alot for excellent details about the C400. How much could Catalina reduce the draft while still maintaining good stability and pointing? How would they shorten the draft without reducing the keel weight?

Ray


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Ray,

In a nut shell, reducing draft will not help pointing in most cases, it does not matter the design or brand. The deeper the draft, the bigger the leading edge, which helps you to point.

Reducing draft will also need an increase in ballast. The longer keel can be lighter, because it levers from the pivot point farther down, but shallower, will need more ballast to counter the sails. Now, you could go lighter to a degree, but the sail area, or mast height would need to go shorter too! Think of the keel as a lever arm or a crow bar. The longer the crow bar, the easier to pull out a nail. Or in the case of a sail boat, the longer/deeper the keel, the less effect the sail area, wind has on it, so it can be lighter and still have the same effect as more wt but closer. Even then, I am not sure adding say 1000 lbs of ballast will always be as stable in a shorter keel and a deeper keel that weighs less.

You are in one of the danged if you do, danged if you do not! 

marty


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

rayjanine said:


> Brian and Jorgen:
> 
> Thanks alot for excellent details about the C400. How much could Catalina reduce the draft while still maintaining good stability and pointing? How would they shorten the draft without reducing the keel weight?
> 
> Ray


I suspect they changed the hull slightly and flattened it. But I have not spoken with Gerry about it. I will tell you that it has a shallower bilge than mine. Might be a question for Gerry.

Brian


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## rayjanine (May 8, 2006)

*How to reach Jerry Douglas of Catalina Yachts*

Hi Brian:

I think talking to Jerry would be great. Do you have his email so I can ask him about the draft and how they can achieve a 5' draft or less?

Thanks,

Ray


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

rayjanine said:


> Any other comments about this boat would be appreciated such as:
> 
> 1. Type of mainsail (standard with jacklines or roller rulling with vertical battens)
> 2. Type of generator and KW (want to run airconditioner on the hook and when the temps get near 100 deg F.)
> ...


I just bought a 2005 400 last month, hull #328. Mine is a fin keel.

1. I was looking for in-mast furling. I've been very happy with it so far. However, if you are wanting to race, then I would get a standard main with a Stack-pack or equivalent. If you do that, and are buying a new boat, spring for a power winch on the cabin top.

2. No clue. I don't live in an area needing AC. A furnace OTOH, is something that I'll need to install.

3. No bow thruster and while it might be nice, I have no plans to install one. Part of me admits to not liking a large hole in the bow.

4. Mine has a 130%, high footed genoa. For 10-15 knots of wind it is a very comfortable and well performing sail. Again, if you want to race, then make sure you have a double headfoil so you can add a larger headsail for light air.

So far, I'm very happy with the boat. Contrary to CD, I don't think the 400 has much prop-walk at all. I have the standard 3 blade prop. Maybe it is a difference between the fin and wing keel?

If you are going to be buying a new boat in that price range, I would seriously look at both the 400 and the 445. The 445 is an amazing boat. It sails well, is beautiful, and the interior is one of the best designed I've ever seen. I think Catalina has really designed a great boat with the 445. However, I didn't buy one for two reasons:
1. I like master berth in the 400 better for my wife and I. We are both tall and not skinny. The aft berth is wonderful. The forward berth in the 445 is a bit tight for us.
2. The extra 4 feet makes the 445 harder to fit places here in the Puget Sound. I can find guest slips still with a 40 foot boat (really 40.5 but when asked I say 40). It gets much harder at 44 feet.

Many Catalina dealers would love to get a 445 in the water in their area for the regional boat shows. You could make a deal on a new 445 that could be about the same price as a 400 if you buy both new. Also, there are some "extras" on the 400 that are "standard" on the 445, reducing the price differential somewhat.

So for design, I'd go with the 445. For the cabin layout and size, I went with the 400 and couldn't be happier.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

rayjanine said:


> Hi Brian:
> 
> I think talking to Jerry would be great. Do you have his email so I can ask him about the draft and how they can achieve a 5' draft or less?
> 
> ...


Just call Gerry. He is very nice and welcomes calls. I bet he will tell you that it is DESIGNED as a 5. Designed versus reality may be two different things. Incidentally, we had a new Bene 40 come into our yard. THe hull shape on that boat looked exactly like the 400's to my naked eye. I have no doubt there are sublte differences, but from looking over it, it sure looked like the 400.

Incidentally, we did informally sail (I wouldn't call it a race) against a B40 on our C400. He ran faster than we did. However, not that much faster. And it was not fair because his was a brand new boat (and bottom), no inmast, and not decked out for cruising. We had a LOT of stuff on our boat, including the solar panels, tender and davits, and all of our LA junk and toys for kids, etc. I am not convinced teh B40 would be any/much faster than the 400.

You keep bringing up the draft on the boat. Curious why that is so critical to you? Are you in skinny water?

Brian


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

I want one bad.


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## rayjanine (May 8, 2006)

*Skinny water*

Hi Brian,

Yes draft is a major issue where I sail out of. A 5' draft is fine but any more puts more time between tides for me to get out and sail and then get back into my canal. Thanks for the advice and the great notes about the boat. I will call Jerry.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

If 5' is your number, you need to avoid the 400 alltogether. Maybe teh 42 would work, but that might even be stretching it. I think you should turn your search to an IP or get used to waiting for tides. I choise to wait fo rtides. But very few large boats will have a 5' draft (true 5') and don't forget that is when she is dry, no crap on them, etc. Now fill tem with a bunch of junk, especially cruising gear, and you can easily tack on 3 inches or more. 

The problem with the IP's, which I am not a fan of, if that tehy are crappy performers and don't point well and do not back well. Make my boat look like she backs on rails. Any other comperable boat will easily exceed teh 5' draft with many of the better boats approaching 7. Maybe you should also consider a catamaran, if you can fit it. But if you need 5', I would avoid the 400 alltogether. You could probably get a used IP in the 300's that is failry new and in the 40' range. Not sure what other choices there really are. 

Brian


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## popmeeye (Jun 22, 2011)

*Phrf*

I'm looking to buy a C-400 and am curious about what changed in 2006.

the way I read this the wing keel changed on hull 307 which I'm guessing to be about late 2004 to make for a lesser draft. Was there more changes to the keel to make the new england PHRF rating be 120 pre-2006 and 102 post-2006? Thanks


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## PerfectPitch (Aug 20, 2014)

I had a Catalina 400 Mk II Hull 297 hauled for survey last Friday. The surveyor measured the draft while in the sling and I was delighted that as she is presently loaded she is drawing 5' 2". The boat only had 1/4 tank of diesel and I don't know how much was in the water / holding tanks.

Catalina's reported draft of 5' 4" might reflect anticipating loading the boat down a bit. Surveyor said that I could expect the boat to sink 1" for every 1,500 lbs.


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## popmeeye (Jun 22, 2011)

I ended up getting hull #206 and just loved it. Don't think there is a faster, sturdier, more comfortable cruiser in her size. Though after having her over 3 years, I now have her for sale as I'm looking to increase boat size. Speed doesn't matter as much to me anymore as a few other things. That being said, I made a tight pinch from Havana to Key West last year in 30+ knot winds and sailed the whole way. Double reefed the main, and rolled in the furling (upgraded to North sails). Had the current with me with the wind against me. Made for LARGE waves. Cockpit was still dry. Very few other boats could have made that journey under sail and dry. Good luck with your purchase.


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