# Renting sailboats rather than owning?



## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Hi. I really want to take sailing classes here in Annapolis for the ASA 101 cert, and hopefully get out on the water some weekends with my family. Kids are 4 and 1 y.o. so probably just me at first, and take them when they are few years older. I of course also dream of some multi-night sail vacations (Caribbean!) far into the future.. We are very buys so I could maybe imagine going sailing 5-6 times/days a year, tops. At least for now. My parents always had a (motor) boat, up to 35 ft, so I'm fairly familiar with boating but not sailing. I enjoyed boating as a kid, and feel I should give that to my children, but my hyper-rational side has problems with owning giant boats like my dad always did.

Owning a boat seems ludicrous in my situation. The cost alone are massive for slip, storage, maintenance. Not to mention taking care of it. I spent so much awful time with my dad taking care of his boat, *shudder. So of course at first we'd rent, but even long term I don't see any reason I'd buy a boat? On Boatsetter.com there are plenty of cruisers in the 25-30s ft range for rent around here, for $300-500 per day. So going out 10 times a year would be less than slip fees alone in many cases! There is the Annapolis sailing club which for $4k/year you can take their larger boats out 6 times a year. There is sailtime.com which is pricey at $10k/year, but give 7 sails a month on fancy new 35-38 ft boats. (I of course don't know the availability on any of these). It's now Wednesday, I could easily book several boats this Saturday on boatsetter..

The only reason to buy is you can take it whenever you want, and do whatever you want with it..? But for that you pay maybe $10k/year, and have to fix and maintain a boat sitting in salt water exposed to the elements? I can barely keep up with maintaining my house, this does not sound like something I'd want to do! Maybe (maybe!) once kids our out and I retire.. And you'd only get to sail one boat. Renting I could choose what I want; big/small, old/new depending on what I want to do. I could also easily sail in other locations. My emotional side of course would want to own a boat, but I really have a hard time finding a rational argument why I'd ever want to. With some many options for renting/sharing sailboats it looks (to me) like a reasonable long-term option for a hobby-sailor. Per my estimates, maybe once you start going out 20-30 times a season it pays to own?

So am I way off? 
TL;DR: *Does anyone have experience primarily renting boats, and how that works out? How would the practicalities work out, am I underestimating it? *Maybe a different discussion, but I figured having a "go-bag" ready and mid-week grabbing whatever renter is open and going saturday. This seems like no more hassle than I remember dealing with whenever my parents were trying to get the boat out.. :/

thanks. sorry for long rambling ..:S


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

The economies are valid concerns and even the Sailing Center sometimes has doubts about owning boats making them available to members and day renters. Boats being rented seem to get about 5 days of wear and tear for every one day a renter has it out on the water. The previous renter may also leave some undeclared damage behind for the next guy to find too so renting can be a double edged sword especially if damage is not noted before you take the rental out and found when you bring it back leaving you potentially getting billed for it.


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## Seaman_3rdClass (Jul 3, 2014)

Scandium said:


> So am I way off? Does anyone have experience primarily renting boats, and how that works out? (This board is probably self-selecting towards owners). How would the practicalities work out, am I underestimating it? Maybe a different discussion, but I figured having a "go-bag" ready and mid-week grabbing whatever renter is open and going saturday. This seems like no more hassle than I remember dealing with whenever my parents were trying to get the boat out.. :/
> 
> thanks. sorry for long rambling ..:S


We were in your situation some years ago, considering whether to rent, own, or join a structured sailing time club. We initially wanted to buy a boat and looked at a bunch of older boats, but then decided to do Sailtime for 2 years to figure out whether we really wanted to do this, and partly because it made more financial sense at the time.

After two years, we were ready to buy, and did buy, a 40' boat. It's not that the Sailtime experience was terrible; it was helpful. The boats were new and in good shape, the docking was convenient, and you could even discretely stash some of your stuff on the boat, as you were generally using the same boat. It's just that the restrictions on the times you can get the boat, check-in/check-out, and having to get back at a certain time, then worrying about whether you left the boat in tidy-enough shape, or not finding the boat tidied up, eventually get old. If you have a flexible schedule and can grab it whenever it's available on short notice, it works a lot better. If you book that coveted long weekend and then it rains all weekend, well, that's your long trip of the year.

Sure, financially owning a boat doesn't make much sense. But if you just think of that $20K as your fun weekend, vacation funds you'd spend anyway, it starts to make sense, especially if you sail 40-50 days a year. The local weekend and longer cruising is almost free if you anchor, and you can come and go as you please. I can live on the boat if I want to. All these things, to me, make it worth it.

That said, renting or doing Sailtime-type bookings seems like a worthwhile experience before jumping into buying a boat. You get sailing experience, learn what kind of boats you like and dislike, and thus become a more informed buyer when/if you are ready to own. It also helps to crystalize the "right" decision, whatever it may be for you.


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## dadio917 (Apr 4, 2011)

You might consider a small trailer-able like a Catalina 22. Doesn't take that long to rig. You can keep it in a slip part time or just put it in when you want to use it. Off season park it in your drive. We had an O'Day 25 that we used that way for years. But it was heavy and took 3 hours to rig/derig. If i did it again i'd get something smaller.

Another thing i found was when it was parked next to the house it was easy and fun to do improvement projects on it.

after about 8 years we sold it for about what we paid for it. $7k.

just a thought.


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## Seaman_3rdClass (Jul 3, 2014)

Scandium said:


> Yes that's certainly a concern. But think that can be mitigated relatively easily. And even if I'm billed for a grand of damage a year it's still cheaper than owning.. Actually this seems to be a recurring theme for pretty much anything when I look at the math: "still cheaper than owning" ...


Well, that depends on the boat. If you get an older sound boat for nearly free or a few grand, and then have your own mooring at a club, the costs can be considerably less than the $10K you spend on renting or Sailtime. I have a friend in just that situation, and he spends considerably less than $5K on his boat, even with the winter layup, club fees, and mooring upkeep costs. Of course, that's with doing the bottom, tuning the rig, etc., yourself.

If you had a trailerable boat that you kept in your backyard, it becomes even more economical, at the added cost of time and hassle.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Learn to sail first and then see if you still want to rent or own. there is a lot more aspects of a sailing life style that you don't get while renting. owning small boats can also be a lot of fun and less expensive when you have kids. for me I would rather pay the monthly bill up front and sail when ever and as much as I like then pay the rental bill at the end of a sail on a day that the wind did not blow or or blew so hard you could only stay out for an hour and the crew said enough.


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## Seaman_3rdClass (Jul 3, 2014)

Also, another factor not to be underestimated: once you've bought the boat (or paid for Sailtime), you're much more likely to go sailing than if you have to shell out the renting fee every time.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

My experience with Sailtime was pretty much the same as the other poster here. It was fantastic when the boat only had a few members - lots of availability. The boats are all in super shape. Eventually I got tired of the same things previous poster was tired of, so I bought my own boat. 

Sailtime has a Lite option which is what you may want - it's about half the price. Although some of the Sailtime locations don't like offering it because they believe that very occasional use does not breed good sailing skills ie: docking well. A justifiable concern, especially with a new sailor.

I've shared with one other company in Toronto, and it was pretty bad. The owner would take the boat out of commission for his own use without warning, so take time to get to know the owner of the operation.


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## magdiego (Mar 2, 2014)

We started sailing about 15 years ago, starting with classes in dinghies, then renting dinghies, then classes in keel boats, then renting keel boats. My husband had a long-term goal of owning a boat, but it didn't make sense for us to purchase at the time. We also had young children, and knew that we were going to have other commitments, interests and constraints that would limit our sailing time. 

We wound up sailing the dinghies 4 or 5 times a summer. Rentals were very inexpensive through a community sailing center, and as the kids got a little older we started renting two at a time, with a parent and kid in each one. When we transitioned to keel boats as the kids got older, we would rent 4 or 5 times through the year, but in the summer we would often go back once or twice to the dinghies.

Renting gave us some variety in terms of location and boat size. Given the realistic limits on our time, renting made more sense at that point. 

About 4 years ago, though, we bought our own boat. We learned more about sailing and boats in the first six months of owning our own boat than we did in 10 years of sailing other people's boats. Not long after we bought our boat, we did a bareboat charter in the BVIs. I'm so glad we would up doing that AFTER we bought - we were much more confident about our abilities than we would have been.

I have no regrets waiting to purchase, but the learning and confidence really took off after becoming boat owners in a way I didn't anticipate.


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## Seaman_3rdClass (Jul 3, 2014)

Scandium said:


> The purchase cost of the boat is pretty minor in the scheme of things. And with an older ones there's then more maintenance etc. So I think for something of reasonable size (25-33ish ft?) from what I've been reading a reasonable number is $10k/year at least, once you add all slip fees, insurance, storage, gear, lost earnings etc etc. I know my dad spends many times that on his boat. And if I want my wife on board (literally ) I don't think some old rust bucket we'd have to spend days just treating the wood on would be a good way to go..
> 
> I contacted a few in the area about slips, and apart from being full, they quoted $3500- 4500 a year. Though I think I said 34 ft. Like I said I could rent 10 times a year for that alone! And I couldn't imagine getting to go out 10 times in a year.
> 
> Trailer is certainly an option for some, but not something I'm interesting in. We don't have the car for it, the HOA would throw a fit, and personally I don't really want a boat in my yard either.


Well, if you are talking slip, then yes, it's $3-8K right off the top. But being on a mooring introduces its own issues, especially with small children and an already reluctant wife.

It sounds like the best option in your current situation is renting a newish boat in a slip or doing something like Sailtime.

And there is no rational reason to spend money on sailing - except happiness. Just like there is no rational reason to spend money on vacations, massages, or any other fun activity. It's just fun! I know some people who can never get over spending money for fun, and it's just no fun for anyone around them.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Seaman_3rdClass said:


> We were in your situation some years ago, considering whether to rent, own, or join a structured sailing time club. We initially wanted to buy a boat and looked at a bunch of older boats, but then decided to do Sailtime for 2 years to figure out whether we really wanted to do this, and partly because it made more financial sense at the time.
> 
> After two years, we were ready to buy, and did buy, a 40' boat. It's not that the Sailtime experience was terrible; it was helpful. The boats were new and in good shape, the docking was convenient, and you could even discretely stash some of your stuff on the boat, as you were generally using the same boat. It's just that the restrictions on the times you can get the boat, check-in/check-out, and having to get back at a certain time, then worrying about whether you left the boat in tidy-enough shape, or not finding the boat tidied up, eventually get old. If you have a flexible schedule and can grab it whenever it's available on short notice, it works a lot better. If you book that coveted long weekend and then it rains all weekend, well, that's your long trip of the year.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your experience! Very interesting to read. There are certainly issues with renting, timing things being the main one it seems. Question is just whether that's worth it I guess.. Our vacation budget is maybe $4k now, so 20k would be quite an upgrade, lol. Would take some getting used to.

No matter what I imagine I would want to rent boats for at least first 5-8 years before I'd be ready to buy anything. Just for the sail experience alone.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

I'd look for a club in your area. In the DC area the Sailing Club of Washington has 6 18' Flying Scots and 3 25' Catalinas for use by club members and dues are very reasonable with no rental charges for the boats.

-Hugh


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

IMHO: If you are only going to sail 5-10 times a year you should not own a boat. 

If you are going to sail 50 times a year then it's easier to rationalize owning a boat.

Typically a boat is a luxury, so it's difficult to rationalize the money spent on it. If you even think that way you probably should not own a boat. For ME, the benefits of sailing my boat are DEFINITELY worth the cost and effort. 

Barry


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## rpludwig (Mar 13, 2017)

dadio917 said:


> You might consider a small trailer-able like a Catalina 22. Doesn't take that long to rig. You can keep it in a slip part time or just put it in when you want to use it. Off season park it in your drive. We had an O'Day 25 that we used that way for years. But it was heavy and took 3 hours to rig/derig. If i did it again i'd get something smaller.
> 
> Another thing i found was when it was parked next to the house it was easy and fun to do improvement projects on it.
> 
> ...


+1, pick up a C22, 2-5k w/trlr & motor, play with it, work on it in your driveway, learn to sail on it, you can step the mast in 15 minutes and sail off...many start this way, if it doesn't workout, you'll likely recover most or all of your expense, if you pick a good one.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Scandium said:


> This sounds like me.. Even before posting this, I have started to think maybe sailing isn't right for me. Just too much to spend for no good reason. Looks like fun, but even dropping just $300 to rent a day might make me too uncomfortable. As anything other than investing does, lol. The sums involved in sailing are also a level above anything else I do as well.
> Thanks for the input though


Try golf. Bowling is even less expensive if you don't mind the ugly shoes.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

BarryL said:


> Hey,
> 
> IMHO: If you are only going to sail 5-10 times a year you should not own a boat.
> 
> ...


I agree completely with the last paragraph of this, and disagree completely with the first two. I would never try to rationalize the cost of a boat on a per use basis. Owning a boat is a completely irrational exercise, no matter the cost or the amount of use. IMHO, if you are the type of person who chooses their recreational activities based on economics, you aren't likely to be a boater anyway.

For me, don't think I've ever squeezed more than 20 boat trips out of a single season, and it's often been less than 15. One summer, it was 10. And I've never considered giving up the boat for economic reasons. There is more to owning a boat than just sailing. I love everything about owning a boat; I love the spring prep, I love the in-season projects, I love the sailing, I love sitting at the dock, I love hanging out at the marina, I love putting the boat away for the season, and I love the off-season dreaming. So like Barry, the cost of the boat is worth it to me, but there's more to it than just sailing (although that is the best part).

Now, if I couldn't use the boat at all for some reason or if I lost my job, then maybe I'd need to sell. But speak not of calculating the per-trip costs; that way lies madness.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

If you are just going sailing a couple times a year, renting is the way to go. However, when you make 60 to 80 trips a year, which I can easily do because I'm fully retired, then renting is insane. It all depends upon your activity level. If it were up to me, I would be on the boat every day of the year, but I would also be divorced. 

Good luck,

Gary


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I have done all of the above.

On the west coast sailing clubs run 30-45 month. You then get a discount on the boat and have access to a large and varied fleet. The boats are often rough around the edges, but that's to be expected with a boat in a rental fleet. Advantages is taking out a 22 footer or a 35 footer depending on your needs. At the time my wife did not sail so I would round up friends or strangers from a sailing group and share the costs. My cost per sailing day was only $20-60/day.

I later owned a 32 foot boat. It was a group owned boat, but almost my boat. I did all the organization, and work for the group and also did most of the sailing of the boat. It was just like owning my own boat, but at a fraction of the cost, on occasion someone would break the boat or leave it dirty. It became not worth the effort so I got out of the boat.

My estimate was the financial cost of owning a 32-35 foot boat was $12-15,000/year over the long haul, you can compute it to be less but if you factor long term maintenance that is what it costs. Other costs is the effort it takes to maintain or coordinate maintenance of your own vessel. I enjoy that part of boat ownership so it's not a negative for me. Advantages is unlimited use of the boat. Besides the sailing part of boat ownership, it's a nice place to have a beer, BBQ or spend the night in the slip. I considered "my" boat a waterfront vacation home. I guess I could rent a boat to spend the night, but never could rationalize the expense of a boat to sleep on.

I would recommend a club or just renting the first year to make sure it is something the whole family enjoys before considering owning.


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

Did a study on this:
It pays to get a boat that is near the fully depreciated age. Be prepared to upgrade electronics but otherwise look for something already outfitted for your planned use.

If you buy get something suited to your frequent use. e.g. daysailing Rent a boat for that once or twice a year vacation sail.

A small boat on a trailer is far less costly than a boat on a slip. You can go more places and do maintenance at home.
The smaller the boat you own, the more frequently you'll use it. 

Ownership cost goes up with length squared


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

If you don’t fall in love with boating, you’ll never spend any money on it. Take the lessons and find out. You will also realize that you can’t become proficient, without routine practice. A club, with small boats would be a great start. 

If you love it, you’ll buy something. If you don’t, you won’t sail at all. 

I have to say, I find it sad when anyone says they can’t spend money on fun. For sure, one should be responsible, properly prepare for the future, a rainy day, kids education. However, when the burden has been met, you should spend your excess on what brings you joy. It could be your last day on earth, you never know.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

No doubt, owning a big boat can be hard on the resources, both time and money, it can be almost like owning another house. However, smaller sailboats on trailers can be really affordable, fun to sail and you can take the kids out with you to work on them in the drive way, so the little maintenance there is is not honerous. You should be able to find a day sailor for 4 in the neighbourhood of 16 feet or a weekender for 4 around 22 feet.

I have a young family and work and this is what I do. I sold my 35 footer (from when I was single and had time and money) and bought a nice 21 foot cruising boat. My costs of ownership were very low last year. A membership at my local boat launch was $35 an unlimited overnight mooring pass at the local lock stations was just over $200 for the season. Thats about it. Need new bearings and tires on my trailer this year. About $200. I find trailer boats so fun and affordable I have actually started a collection. I currently have 3 and i am in the process of building #4.

I have never really tried renting, but we often talk about chartering in Turkey or Greece.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

“If it flies, floats or f ucks, rent it, don’t buy it,” said the character Tommy Earl Bruner in Dan Jenkins’ novel, Baja Oklahoma (1981). 

Fifty years ago my BIL and I started sailing 18' Thistles, he still sails a "woody" Thistle every weekend for pennies compared to the cost of my full blown addiction. Sailing doesn't have to be expensive, and I couldn't afford the $12 to 20 grand/year I spend on it now for most of my life. When I had trailer boats I found that the quickest to rig and launch got used the most. 5 or 6 times a year sounds like rental territory to me, I try for that every week year round.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

As Jeff says “it depends “

Bigger used less often.


Believe this is counter to the general experience of many. Once you have a boat large enough to be documented and be counted as a second home by the tax people you will use it more not less. The wife will give you less guff about spending weekends on it. If work or retirement permit you will go on extended cruises. You will likely live on it for part of or the whole year. Given you can think about 160-200 mile days your cruising horizons will expand. Given squalls and days of sparky seas are not so intimidating you will sail (prudently of course) when you would otherwise stay home. Hell you may even think about it as home and time on land as periods when you’re just waiting to go sailing again. 
You will bond with your boat. Not only money expended and wasted with lack of use but the bonding that occurs just messing around with boats.
You have no pride in a rental. It yours and you queeked it to the way you want it. 
The strength of the friendship you have with fellow cruisers is often stronger than even the friendship you have as part of a racing crew.
I read smaller boats are used more. Wonder if this is really true. Think once you spend a certain quota of time at sea the old saw about being ruin for land is true.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

For reasonably sized trailerable boats Sailing Clubs/Centers can be as inexpensive as $400 a year for an individual membership ($525 for a family), storage of your own over 16 foot boat at around $735 a year (under 16 feet $525 per year) and valet service to have your boat launched when you get there can be as low as $250 a year. Many choose to store their boats mast up and on trailers so that their annual costs are $1,385 a year for membership, storage and valet launching which includes free usage of beach cats, prams, picnic monohulls and lasers when you do not want to take your own boat out. When you call ahead your boat will usually be in the water as ready as you left it to sail as it was when you sent it to the storage lot.

Many prefer this to renting or a slip since the cost is very low and having the center use their valet's and tractors to transport your boat from the storage lot to the centers launch ramp makes it so you do not have to drive around in a tow vehicle keeping your fuel costs to and from the center lower too plus it limits how often your vehicle is backing into salt water and of course eliminates the need to raise the mast and set up the standing rigging. They also have a variety of hitch extensions with dollies so you do not have the back as far into the water if you do launch a deeper draft boat with your own vehicle.

Some really like this route as it allows them have more options to choose from with some many times leaving their own boat in storage most of the time to take a beach cat or one of the smaller mono-hulls owned by the Center out for a few hours for a picnic or just to get away and out on the water for a bit.

Remember I am in the Tampa Bay area in Florida where we probably have as close to 365 sailing days a year in our sailing season as you are going to get.


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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

In your situation I can't see any way that buying anything bigger than a trailer sailor makes sense. Rental clubs are not only less $$, but you will get to take out a variety of different boats & see what you like/dislike before you commit to buying one. We belonged to a rental club here for a couple of years before buying and I think it helped us to make the right decision when we did. I have to say I am a bit shocked at the prices you quoted for clubs. Must be very different there than here on the West Coast.


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## Towguy (May 8, 2016)

Actually what no one has mentioned yet,surprisingly, is take some courses ( or not) a read some good instruction books , and,find some racers that need crew,sounds like in active clubs crew or "rail meat" is always welcome ,,a good,cheap way to get out on the water,get some experience and see if it's right for you , wish I had some sort of club near,this may be all you need for a couple of years till the kids are old enough to partipate ,,and you will have much more confidence...Ralph


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Waltthesalt said:


> The smaller the boat you own, the more frequently you'll use it.
> 
> Ownership cost goes up with length squared


No one will argue with the second statement but the first is debatable.

There is very few people living full time on their sailboat sitting in the driveway. I think the number of people cruising full time on the boat formerly in their driveway is pretty low. There are plenty of neglected boats in the marina, likewise there are trailered boats rotting in storage yards and backyards.

If cost were no object I doubt many would choose a 16 foot boat on a trailer over a 32+ foot boat in a slip. Cost being no object I'd have both but the 16 footer would be stored next to a ramp rigged with mast up, ready to go when the wind is piping. Trailering and setting up the boat everytime you want to sail is a hassle.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> .....Once you have a boat large enough to be documented and be counted as a second home by the tax people you will use it more not less. The wife will give you less guff about spending weekends on it. If work or retirement permit you will go on extended cruises. You will likely live on it for part of or the whole year. Given you can think about 160-200 mile days your cruising horizons will expand. Given squalls and days of sparky seas are not so intimidating you will sail (prudently of course) when you would otherwise stay home. Hell you may even think about it as home and time on land as periods when you're just waiting to go sailing again........


Bingo. Our current boat started as a combination of my need for a boat and my (second) wife's desire to have a summer home somewhere. She has really taken to boating, so it's become a huge win-win. Better yet, our family, especially our kids, are lined up at the door to spend time with us aboard. I've never seen a land house become such a routine draw.

We didn't want to go camping every weekend, so we wanted a boat that really was a second home. We live aboard about 125-150 days per year. I've already been overnight about 8 days this season (all commissioning). Launched Mar 30. We sail almost every weekend from May 1 to Oct 1, with 3 full weeks of cruising planned this summer, several long weekends and are in the water a couple more months than that. It's entirely part of our lives, not just a hobby a few times per year.

If it didn't rise to this level of importance to us, it simply wouldn't be worth it. Not this boat anyway.

I actually think the issue of boat size is a barbell issue, not linearly correlated to length. The 24 footers in our marina go out a lot. So do the 45+ footers. In between, may be the dip. It may be, when a 25 upgrades to 35 that it becomes harder to shorthand, but not quite big enough to be as comfortable as a home that the axiom is observed.


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## Seaman_3rdClass (Jul 3, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> We didn't want to go camping every weekend, so we wanted a boat that really was a second home. We live aboard about 125-150 days per year. I've already been overnight about 8 days this season (all commissioning). Launched Mar 30. We sail almost every weekend from May 1 to Oct 1, with 3 full weeks of cruising planned this summer, several long weekends and are in the water a couple more months than that. It's entirely part of our lives, not just a hobby a few times per year.


Wow. Assuming you are in Narragansett Bay, where it's still been snowing occasionally, with temps some nights below freezing, that's pretty hardy. But it's a great place to summer on your boat. We are hoping to launch ours in a couple of weeks.


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## scm2 (Aug 15, 2011)

A couple other things to consider perhaps. If you're looking for a family activity, then sailing is something that everyone can enjoy. Before i got remarried, i played a lot of golf and occasionally sailed my O'Day DS III. Afterwards, I quickly realized that golf was something that I alone enjoyed, and it took me away from the family for 6+ hours each time I played. We enjoyed the O'Day, but it was small -- and a little scary to my wife. 

We upgraded to a used Catalina 320. Yes, it's definitely more expensive -- by a LOT. But it's something that we do together. And it's not so "scary" when the wind gets up. If you want your family to enjoy this, then I'd seriously consider learning to sail (the ASA 101 is a good place to start) and finding some friends in the Annapolis area to take your family out on their boat. That's a low/no-cost place to start.

The sailing clubs won't rent boats to you if you don't have some proof that you know what you're doing. The Sailing Club of Washington requires that you be "Skipper certified."


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

We’ve done it both ways. Owning boats for the past 47 years, from daysailer to 35’ sloop, and also doing a lot of bareboat charters in exotic places: mostly the Caribbean. Having our own dock for the past 30 years has helped reduce the in-season costs, but the winter storage can really add up over the years. Of course, the major cost is acquisition, insurance, maintenance—the list goes on.

I don’t think it is cost-effective to own a bigger boat, if affordability is your main concern. That said, just having the boat ready to go on a moment’s notice is worth something, as well as the pride of ownership issue. If you are in doubt or not fully committed, try renting for a while before making the leap to ownership.

P.S. We sail the 35 footer more times in a season than the 9’ Dyer Dhow, which sits on the dock, ready to go.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Excellent point Minnie. Think your on to something. I have no trouble actually sailing my boat by myself even in weather. But a hell of a time getting on or off a dock. I don’t need a skilled sailor as crew but someone agile enough to jump on and off the boat. Even 15-20 kts. on the beam while in my slip with a 7figure hole in the water (a zeelander) next to me means I have to rustle up 2 or 3 line handlers to safely leave. So in this instance bigger is definitely worse as regards increasing usage. Coming in I’ve even anchored out to wait for more benign circumstances. Want the wind nearly or directly on the bow or stern and then I can just about dock with no help not even needing the bow thruster.
Once out FREEDOM!!! Boat always has enough fuel, food and water that we’re self sufficient for weeks. That feeling of just going wherever the wind takes you is priceless. So addictive you set up your life to allow those interludes to occur. 
Winters are different. Landlife issues are an intrusion. The rhythm of tropical living seems so natural. Since jumping from 34’ to 46’ wife and I have spent more days on the boat than land. If you take out the time on on the hard think this is also true for seasonal sailors with boats over 40’ wherever they are. 
Like the barbell allusion but there’s still heavy lifting if you are driven to sail on any kind of boat. I remember years with a j24. The planning involved and work to keep it vaguely competitive was just as hard as current liveaboard days.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Seaman_3rdClass said:


> Wow. Assuming you are in Narragansett Bay, where it's still been snowing occasionally, with temps some nights below freezing, that's pretty hardy. But it's a great place to summer on your boat. We are hoping to launch ours in a couple of weeks.


We are in the Bay. Yes, two nights aboard, so far, have been in the 20s. Our heat pump would keep the cabins at approx 65F at night, so not too bad aboard. In our stateroom, I would shut the heat pump off at night and run a smaller 1000w ceramic heater instead. I would close the door to create as small a space as possible and it was perfectly comfortable to sleep. The heat pump, really the air handler, is a bit loud to sleep next to.

I got back from West Marine one day last week to find snow on the dock. Thankfully, it was short lived.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Owning a boat is about much more than just going for a sail on weekends -- at least it is for my family (wife, me and 8 year old boy who was 3 when we got the boat). If all you want to do is sail for a couple hours from time to time, then make friends with a buddy with a boat or rent a boat or join a club. Or just forget about it and move on to something that is a better fit for your family.

For us, our boat is our escape from our busy lives. The satisfaction and well being it brings to us is immeasurable and invaluable. The work and maintenance is a pain in the a$$ and I don't enjoy it, but when we are out on the boat miles from anything, all thoughts of work and school and life just melt away.

I've said this before, but it's worth repeating to someone who has a family with young kids and is considering a sailboat. Owning a sailboat with a family isn't really about sailing. It's really about spending time together on the water, making memories, laughing, playing games, fishing, swimming, and hopefully some sailing when the conditions are just right. This is what you're most likely to see on our boat at any given time.



And of course lot's of this:


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

danvon said:


> In your situation I can't see any way that buying anything bigger than a trailer sailor makes sense. Rental clubs are not only less $$, but you will get to take out a variety of different boats & see what you like/dislike before you commit to buying one. We belonged to a rental club here for a couple of years before buying and I think it helped us to make the right decision when we did. I have to say I am a bit shocked at the prices you quoted for clubs. Must be very different there than here on the West Coast.


I looked around a bit more, and there are cheaper "non-commercial" clubs around too. E.g. 
capitolsbc.com
has fractional ownership for $3k for a 30 ft , and up

Here
chesapeakeboatingclub.com
has membership for $3k/$6.5K for 20ft/30ft+

This local club is ~$500/year for their three 30-something ft boats, but I'm unsure how much sail time that gives
parklawnsailingassociation.org

With so many options it seems silly to even consider buying a boat for several years (if ever..). Unless for some reason we jump all-in and want to sail 50 times a year (doubtful). A silly hobby for $4k/year I could maybe be ok with. At least it's not 20 grand.. I guess I'll try and see how we feel about it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sounds like you have some great options. Let us know how the lessons go and then give these a shot. 

I think you’ll find that sailing (boating in general) is either a lifestyle that is important or fades away. Many boats sit in the water and never move. If it brings you joy, you won’t count the dollars, or think of it as a silly hobby. In fact, there are many other issues to overcome, other than money. Bad weather, boat system failures (way more than a home or car), effort just to pack and travel to/from the boat, etc. You may even break your rented boat. Wait till you learn what an accidental jib is.  If you want the lifestyle, these are viewed as challenges, if not, they are viewed as annoyances. 

A famous magazine publisher put it perfectly.........

“The difference between an adventure and an ordeal is attitude” If focused on the money, it may become an ordeal. 

I hope you learn you enjoy it as much as we do. All the best.


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## jeremiahbltz2 (Mar 30, 2017)

I'm a member of a sailing club (Hudson River Community Sailing) here in New York. It's great. It's cheap, they maintain a fleet of sailboats, and it's always easy to get crew. I highly recommend a sailing club or community sailing organization if you have one in your area.


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## Aletheia (Feb 26, 2018)

I don't understand why no one brought up the most obvious point. Be on time, be cheerful, listen...than do what's asked of you, bring some 20-50 $ for consumables, two cold 6 packs of beer and some good sandwiches, repeat. You will never be left at the dock. EVER. 

I budget 10k yr for my older boat. Mooring & Haul out is half that. I do virtually everything myself for maintenance. I like to have a good time. My friends know the rules of frequent guests; I'll bring the boat, you bring the food & beer. I supply the wiskey. 

I have taught dozens of people to sail. 2 to navigate as well.


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## chicory83 (Dec 21, 2009)

When I first started spending time in the SF Bay area I got my West Coast sailing fix through several different sailing groups on Meetup.com People looking for crew post a day trip for sailing as an "event" and members of the group can sign up to sail. I would be willing to bet that there are multiple opportunities to do the same in the Annapolis area. For example:
https://www.meetup.com/topics/sailing/us/md/annapolis/
Some of the people I sailed with were members of a local club/sailing school called "Tradewinds." These folks had given up their own boats, and would sail boat's from the club's fleet of Catalinas. For the most part they seemed fairly happy with the arrangement and it was pretty cost effective for them. The boats are privately owned, but maintained and docked by the club for use of both their owners and members. If you can find a similar organization in the Annapolis area it would either give you an opportunity to get some sailing experience, or allow you to buy a boat and defer some of the costs and maintenance by allowing other people vetted by a club to use it. 
Tradewinds Sailing School & Club - San Francisco Bay Area. Offering Sailing Instruction in Marina Bay, Richmond, California. Courses include basic sailing, intermediate sailing, advanced sailing, navigation, seamanship. We offer club bareboat rental, (I have no affiliation with Tradewinds)


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> For sure, one should be responsible, properly prepare for the future, a rainy day, kids education. However, when the burden has been met, you should spend your excess on what brings you joy. It could be your last day on earth, you never know.


So true. Some people just don't know how to do it. We meet many people who seem to have hardly any money, but they are free to do what they want. OTOH, it's all too easy to essentially lock yourself into the hamster wheel of work.... I suppose I'm glad that is what most people do, they put themselves in a box and they stay there...or it would be too crowded in the harbor.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Scandium said:


> I looked around a bit more, and there are cheaper "non-commercial" clubs around too. E.g.
> capitolsbc.com
> has fractional ownership for $3k for a 30 ft , and up
> 
> ...


If you're willing to sail "open" boats like Flying Scots, the West River Sailing Club has memberships for $600/year + $200 to join their "shared boat" program. That's $800/year which beats anything you've found so far.

You join, you get checked out on the Flying Scot by an instructor, (or whatever boats in their program you wish to use), then you simply borrow the boat like a library book for the day, and put it away when you're done. A Flying Scot can take 2 fit adults and 2 small children. There's no cabin though.

You'll sail in the West and Rhode rivers, which are beautiful venues and not totally overrun by powerboats. You can pack a cooler for the day's lunch and drinks or you can eat at the club's dining area.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Man I just realized you are in Annapolis. The sailing school there rents 24' Rainbows for $120/ day with a $500 membership. 

You are all set .


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

There's an old piece of wisdom to the effect that "If it flies, floats or f**ks you should rent". :wink


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Ajax_MD said:


> If you're willing to sail "open" boats like Flying Scots, the West River Sailing Club has memberships for $600/year + $200 to join their "shared boat" program. That's $800/year which beats anything you've found so far.
> 
> You join, you get checked out on the Flying Scot by an instructor, (or whatever boats in their program you wish to use), then you simply borrow the boat like a library book for the day, and put it away when you're done. A Flying Scot can take 2 fit adults and 2 small children. There's no cabin though.
> 
> You'll sail in the West and Rhode rivers, which are beautiful venues and not totally overrun by powerboats. You can pack a cooler for the day's lunch and drinks or you can eat at the club's dining area.


Same here except the $400 individual/$525 family annual membership includes use of the boats and life vests. You can pack a lunch and picnic on the islands inside the inner coastal or use the picnic tables on the dining deck. If you have your own day sailor your annual costs can still be less than $2,000. Many old timers choose the center to sail from and donate their day sailors or beach cats to the center in their wills. It usually only takes a few minutes for another member to show up who wants to share a boat rather than go out alone if you don't feel up to single handing a boat or even one of the staff members to go out with you in a boat they want to check out after some maintenance has been completed. They also have sailing fitness programs and other events for the whole family. Best thing is that the Director, Manager and Board of Trusties are all reasonable folks who love sailing and will work with folks to accommodate their needs within reason.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Sal Paradise said:


> Man I just realized you are in Annapolis. The sailing school there rents 24' Rainbows for $120/ day with a $500 membership.
> 
> You are all set .


Yeah the school/club seems pretty good. You can rent without membership ($160 for weekday), get a discount for $500/year. Or for $1500 you get a bunch of free rentals, probably more than I could use. Problem with the 24's is you can only take them in a very limited area just outside the school. Fine for learning and messing around, but doubt my wife/kids will find sailing in circles there much fun after a while.. I do need to check out the other boat-sharing clubs though. Some seem like a good deal for weekend-warrior sailing at <$1000


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Scandium said:


> Yeah the school/club seems pretty good. You can rent without membership ($160 for weekday), get a discount for $500/year. Or for $1500 you get a bunch of free rentals, probably more than I could use. Problem with the 24's is you can only take them in a very limited area just outside the school. Fine for learning and messing around, but doubt my wife/kids will find sailing in circles there much fun after a while.. I do need to check out the other boat-sharing clubs though. Some seem like a good deal for weekend-warrior sailing at <$1000


If you only have $1000 budgeted and you need to get into a 30'+ foot boat to make your family comfortable, sailing is not your sport. In order to sail a 30' boat you will have to take many days of classes and rent smaller boats often enough to improve your skills. You will be north of $1000 before you skipper a 30 footer yourself. When I belonged to a club whose dues were $45/month but was applied towards a monthly rental, a Catalina 320 was $350/day.

There are cheap or even free ways to learn to sail but not with the parameters you have set. If you budget $5000 you could meet your goals this summer. If you want to set your sights lower you could just take the basic sailing class and see if you like it, and if the family likes it. Worst case scenario you wasted a couple of hundred dollars, best case scenario, you and your family have a lifelong passion. If that becomes the case the 10s or 100s of thousands of dollars spent on sailing won't be looked at as wasted.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Scandium said:


> .....And, no offense to anyone, but I have not found boating people particularly friendly. They want to be left alone, and mostly worry about you crashing into their expensive boats (all understandable). Been (power-) boating since I was an infant with my parents and hardly ever had any interaction with others on the water. (unless shaking fists and middle fingers count.. )


I'm absolutely not offended. There are folks on the water, who are at their wits end and act aggressively. Some have limited wits. I like to believe they are concentrated in the ranks of stinkpotters (powerboats). 

However, your conclusion must be from limited observation. Fellow sailors are usually a very friendly lot. In fact, I will have just the opposite problem about 100 to 1, over unfriendly. They are usually so friendly, they'll talk your head off, while you're trying to get something done.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Agree with Minnie when you own a boat and keep it in a slip you will find that everyone on the docks are very friendly and we all look out for each other. its a life style for the owners . it is a different story at the launch ramp. not that there aren't friendly people there but there are some that we wish might boat elsewhere.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

I say this with good intentions, but honestly you are overthinking this to death. Either you want to go try sailing and spend a few hundred or thousand to do it, or you don't. You seem to have already researched a ton of options and know what's available to you. Personally, I'm not sure you'll really enjoy sailing. You already seem overwhelmed before you even step foot on a boat.


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## Aletheia (Feb 26, 2018)

I did previously reply to correct post. Experiencing sailing is something you will have to do solo or as a couple with your wife. No one in their right mind should consider learning to sail, in a rented boat, with an infant. You will make the news, and that's not a good thing. 

Experiencing sailing is so easy, you just have to show up where sailboats are. This was my point. No ASA school required. Your "investment" would be a little good will and 50$. The progression here is experiance, learn, rent with new sailing friends, rent with wife while someone else on dry land is looking after kids, discuss with wife how this might work as a family. 

I agree with above commenters. This isn't for you. Being blown about by the wind is the very definition of chaos. You seem to need control as part of your endeavor. 

Spare your family, take out your frustrations on a plastic covered ball and enjoy the smooth power delivery of an electric golf cart.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Here’s a real paradox. Sailboat owners have the reputation of being penny pinchers and I think that has some merit. At the same time, each one is spending way too much money on their boat, from a fiscally conservative point of view. A hard core penny pincher would never own a boat.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm absolutely not offended. There are folks on the water, who are at their wits end and act aggressively. Some have limited wits. I like to believe they are concentrated in the ranks of stinkpotters (powerboats).
> 
> However, your conclusion must be from limited observation. Fellow sailors are usually a very friendly lot. In fact, I will have just the opposite problem about 100 to 1, over unfriendly. They are usually so friendly, they'll talk your head off, while you're trying to get something done.


My experience, too. I have both power and sail and find most folks at the marina where I store my boats and prep them for the season are very personable and friendly, with a little more sociability coming from the sailboat side. I haven't run into any real grouches there, but the powerboaters are more likely to ignore you as they walk by unless you have struck up an acquaintance. So, maybe you will find the marina overall more friendly if you take the initiative on being sociable.

Once out on the water, there are poor manners shown by both sail and powerboats--usually folks you don't know blowing off the rules of the road (sailors worse here) or waking you (obviously powerboaters). Some of the waking is unintentional--like the guy in the mega yacht waving in the Hog Island channel by the Cape Cod Canal just before his wake dumped green water in my cockpit.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I have had pretty good success with folks being friendly in Marinas, as well as at the boat launch, with some exceptions of course. I have experienced some ageism as a younger boater, my wife gets it way worse than me, she has had some really negative experiences with older women being nasty. 

For the most part though, pretty good. When my son was born absolutely every boater on our pier, which was maybe 30 slips long brought us a box of baby clothes or diapers. The clothes were mostly baby clothes their grand children had grown out of to illustrate the age difference. 

The boat launch is really good. People always seem willing to take a line for me, or give me a lift some where if I ask. If I don't ask, then is a whole lot less likely to happen.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Scandium said:


> Yeah the school/club seems pretty good. Problem with the 24's is you can only take them in a very limited area just outside the school. Fine for learning and messing around, but doubt my wife/kids will find sailing in circles there much fun after a while..


Its awfully cheap to buy an old 20 something foot sailboat and then you can go anywhere you dare.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Sal Paradise said:


> Its awfully cheap to buy an old 20 something foot sailboat and then you can go anywhere you dare.


Exactly however a membership in a sail club to test the waters in a club boat for around $500 is about the lowest initial risk.

Gives one the option to sail within sight of rescue boats, coaches and a other support staff plus if there is a problem with the boat or sails you just bring it back and check out another for the rest of the day at no additional cost to you. Then once one is confident enough they can take out just the wife to see how she likes it and once she is comfortable with their ability to sail then include the kids now that Mom is not reacting to every sound and twitch that the boat makes. It can be made a low cost low risk test of the waters with a membership before making a big commitment with some loving it while others may find that they really hate it. Buying even a sail ready boat in good condition is usually going to loose you much more than $500 if you don't like it as one rarely ever gets back their complete investment in a boat.

Cost depends a lot on the individual. Some can even take sailing an Optimist Pram and turn it into a $100,000+ a year hobby depending on how they approach it. I feel bad for Clark Mills who designed them for poor families to be able to get their children into sailing for less than $100 only to see it turn into a class Regatta boat for the Ultra Wealthy instead of the Poor or Underprivileged.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

SeaStar58 said:


> Cost depends a lot on the individual. Some can even take sailing an Optimist Pram and turn it into a $100,000+ a year hobby depending on how they approach it. I feel bad for Clark Mills who designed them for poor families to be able to get their children into sailing for less than $100 only to see it turn into a class Regatta boat for the Ultra Wealthy instead of the Poor or Underprivileged.


Check out Puddle Duck Racers. Much cheaper and easier to build.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I'd much rather risk some $500 loss than be told what to do and have to follow someone's rules. But that is just me. I may have a small cheap crap boat but I sail when and where I want and I don't have to answer to some 18 year old in khaki shorts with a clip board.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Is it the sailing...just want sail...or do you want your own boat....

Just go sailing at first.
Youll know more later.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Sal Paradise said:


> I may have a small cheap crap boat but I sail when and where I want and I don't have to answer to some 18 year old in khaki shorts with a clip board.


Hey now, it's not like the khaki shorts were his idea....


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Sal Paradise said:


> I'd much rather risk some $500 loss than be told what to do and have to follow someone's rules. But that is just me. I may have a small cheap crap boat but I sail when and where I want and I don't have to answer to some 18 year old in khaki shorts with a clip board.


Here it will be the 70+ year old Director a retired sail maker and blue water sailor who still lives aboard his Pearson. He will even go out with you personally if you just want someone there until you get your comfort level up. They're really a nice bunch more likely to encourage and coach rather then boss folks around. If you pay for coaching they will make videos of your sessions and assist you in reinforcing what your doing right and critiquing what your doing wrong. Yes the Sandwich approach with some meat in the middle with a bit of dressing to spice it up between the two slices of soft bread but they're trying to encourage sailing in the community for wholesome quality time for families, personal fitness and to build up relationships in the community.

No boat maintenance costs or other expenses will be incurred.

Lets face it, most $500 boats are going to need some standing rigging which even on a 15 footer is going to cost you around $50 to $100 per shroud and $80 to $150 for a forestay and running rigging at potentially another $100 to $200 plus some varnish, paint etc. If your fortunate the sails might still have some life in them but many times will already be at the point of failure having been repaired a number of times with sail tape so you also can be facing another $750 to $1,500 for sails. Even if you take care of any centerboard trunk, rudder or centerboard issues yourself even the basic West Systems kit is $25 and usually not enough if you have beyond some basic touch-ups to deal with plus you'll need sandpaper, acetone, rags, etc. Most often its going to cost equal to double the purchase price of the $500 boat to put it on the water and then you still need life vests and other safety gear. Yes sometimes you might get lucky and find one in usable condition but that's a toss of the dice.

That of course does not count in the Title Application and Registration fee on the $500 boat. Here regardless of the value there is a base fee for title and registration that you have to pay to put even the $500 boat on the water. Title and registration is mandatory here in Florida if you put even a battery operated trolling motor on a less than 16 foot boat or on any boat that is 16 feet or longer. If any prior owner of a sub 16 foot boat put a motor on it so it had to be titled then that title has to be transferred within 30 days of purchase. Boats sold without title that require one then incur court costs which will usually far exceed the $500 purchase price too. Many $500 boats being sold here are 16 feet or longer and missing their titles so folks find out the hard way that they are no bargains since you can't lawfully use them on public waters without title and registration. Many times the courts may deny your application for title too especially if the owner of record is not the person who sold you the boat so you now have a boat that you really don't legally own, can't lawfully use nor can you legally sell.

If its a trailer sailor then there is the cost of the trailer hitch for your vehicle plus any repair and tire costs for the trailer which also may cost as much or possibly more than what you paid for the $500 boat.

With a sailing center membership at $400 for the individual, you get a working certified boat with the safety gear all setup and ready to use with no additional cost, no worries about transporting or storage and no maintenance with all the newbie having to think about is whether they want to take the next step and get their own titled boat or a longer term rental that allows them to sail beyond the local area or just continue with the membership.

If your already a confident sailor and ready for going off on your own that's different but for a newbie who may not be sure and is sitting on the fence the membership is the easy way to find out at the lowest possible investment/effort with the plus of having an organization watching your back. If you find its not for you then you can leave the boat at the ramp for them to put away, rinse off in the shower and drive away with no worries about fixing the boat so you can sell it, loosing the investment in title, registration, rigging, sails, trailer, equipment, etc.


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## curtis742 (Jan 26, 2016)

The sailing community is a different world from from the stinkpot boaters you were raised with. Join a sailing club. They are far more friendly. Almost every weekend there are day trips with a group of mixed experience. Knowledge is passed freely. You will learn far more than from mere sailing classes. You will gain knowledge and experience and have a blast doing it. Believe me you will make plenty of new friends in the process who share a common interest with you. In short order you will have the skills and experience you seek before taking your family out as well as get the inside scoop on sailing, slips, boats, lifestyle etc. You may end up buying a 40 footer and moving the family aboard and raising the kids traveling the world working in different countries. Sure beats slogging daily to a 50+ hour a week job and a thirty year house note for a place to live where you don't know your next door neighbor's name.


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## curtis742 (Jan 26, 2016)

I joined a sailing club in Houston, $35.00 a year. Every weekend they were chartering boats or boat owners were doing day trips. About $50.00 a person, bring your own food and drinks. They are always doing day trips, overnight trips, group trips to the Caribbean, Mediterranean, south pacific. We have ASA instructors as members who have various classes at good rates. Arrangements with local rental companies which give discounts. There are several races a year just for fun, some are for a day some down the coast as far as southern Mexico. Endless opportunities to gain experience and training with a group of fun people with experience levels from novice to world cruisers to live aboards. All more than willing to teach the ancient art of sailing and pass along their skills and adventures. Boats ranged from 25-50+ foot boats of all makes and models. Loads of opportunities to gain experience and knowledge, see what it's like to sail many sizes and styles of boats, find the best marinas, best vacation spots and what not to do and things to avoid.


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## codybear (Feb 6, 2015)

I'm late to the party and I may be repeating what others have said because I don't have time to read 7 pages of posts, but I'd like to offer a few comments. With your costs, make sure to add insurance and the biggest cost for most newer boats, depreciation.

If it is just you that is going to sail this year, why not learn in a small boat this year and move up when the family is ready to join you? Learning on a Sunfish or whatever is in your area will give you more tiller time as compared to sharing with a class on a bigger boat, as well as being easier to single-hand. And small boat sailing will make you a better sailor overall because it is much more responsive to the wind. Besides, being really cheap to rent and extremely available, you could buy a used one for the price of just a few days of renting a big one. And the more complicated the boat, the more maintenance it will need. Also, if you have a local racing fleet, you'll learn a lot more and being on the start line on a small boat is a lot less intimidating. Additionally, it will be easier to teach your children to sail on a small boat. On a big boat, they are really only going for a ride. 

Sailing is not for everyone, renting before buying is a nice way to test the water. Also with buying, there is a saying, the two happiest days in a boater's life are the day he buys his boat and the day he sells his boat.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I think there are two basic reasons to rent 

1 - because you don't feel like moving your boat to that location. So you rent one already there! 

2- to learn basic sailing in a supported environment. Great reason. 

But to think of renting as the same experience as owning - as a way to save money - it's apples and oranges. One scenario you are taking care of your boat, improving it, learning its ways. It becomes a part of your life and family - you have these little adventures with it... The other is . ....its a ride on a sailboat. Both experiences are great, and I have done both. But they are two different things.


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## tristan35 (Oct 30, 2016)

I second Ralph's comment.. the best boat is sometimes your friend's boat. Racing is a great way to learn and there is always a need to rail meat!


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Scandium - It's all perspective as to whats a big boat and whats a small one same as for motorcycles. Where I grew up anything over 15 feet was big boat and over 20 was huge just as a 250 was considered a full sized motorcycle and anything over 350 cc huge.

The Sailing Center just added an S2 7.9 to its fleet and that looks like the Queen Mary compared to the Prams, Lightnings, Lasers, C-Scows, Flying Scott's, etc. 

As you learn the ropes and get known as a solid citizen then other members will start inviting you to help them take their personal boats out, some of which are stored at the center and others in nearby marinas. It's about building relationships and if your a likeable person a mentor will likely take you under their wing especially if your willing to help out and put in the effort to do a good job. It can start with something as simple as helping with a dock line, putting away a hose or helping with the scrubbing and buffing.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Scandium said:


> Well, guess I should say I've been at least somewhat convinced. I'm taking part 1/3 of the ASA 101 class this weekend, and I've started to look at 30 ft boats for sale.. And prices for marinas nearby.. Will see how it goes of course, so still not sure I'd buy a boat. And deciding which is such a nightmare! And deciphering what my wife would want. She's supportive of me taking the class, and us doing some family sailing eventually. But she's also staunchly against any form of overnight stay on boats, I'm not quite sure why. Said something like "see zero reason to/no point in" sleeping on a boat.. :S And a host of reasons why; discomfort, too hot, vacations limited to where boats can go, cramped, only so many Chesapeake towns to see, stressful, just want to relax, etc etc. I think weekend overnight trips sound great! So I'm pretty bummed that's unlikely to happen  I'd like to share a bottle of wine and a sunset while sitting on the boat with my wife, but if she don't want to there's nothing I can do. Perhaps in 6-7 years when the kids are older so I just go with them. Though they're likely to find it boring then.
> 
> So I'll probably be sailing by myself some. I don't have any friends who boat at all, I didn't even ask if they want to take the class. So on the one hand if I own the boat it's maybe easier to just go out on my own? Take off when I have the chance. Watched some videos on single handed/solo sailing and don't look too bad. But also handy to just rent if we don't go out much? I'd hate to spend 80 hours/year working on the boat, just to go on three 6-hour trips for ice cream..
> 
> I probably need another thread discussing family weekend boat, if I were to buy, but I'm wavering between a small <$10k, 22-25 footer to just muck around some saturdays and get lunch. Or go full 30 ft with cabins and galley. On the tiny, rare chance my wife might be convinced to take overnight trips. Though I'm thinking even for day trips a small boat is annoying with two little kid trying to fall off, so maybe the 30-footer is the right answer no matter what.


Dude, you are going full-scale Hamlet on us, and you don't need to. Take the classes, see if YOU like sailing. If you do, then take the family on both a 22-25 footer and on a 30 footer, and see which kind of sailing suits the whole lot of you best. Then if they like it and want to pursue it, that's when you start thinking about what boat to buy.

This conversation about "what's the right boat for me?" never ends for a sailor. I've been sailing most of my life, but I only bought a boat (other than a Sunfish) once my kids were big enough (5 and 3) to safely come aboard. I bought a 23 footer, mostly because it fit my budget and I was comfortable single-handing her; I knew that a lot of my sailing would be either literally or effectively singlehanded as my wife knows some basics, but mainly likes to chill. Sometimes, the kids liked to sail and go out for the afternoon. Mostly not. My son used to like it, then he didn't mind it, then he hated it. Now at 24, he's ok with going out, but it's not a favorite thing. My daughter used to love it, then she liked it, especially when I would take her friends along. Now she gets seasick looking at the dock. My wife liked it, then didn't mind it, then loved it, then didn't really like , then..... well, you get the point. And for a (very) brief time, she was the one who wanted a bigger boat.

The point is that you can't predict what you or your family will want to do with a boat (or anything really) next year, let alone the year after that. Stop trying. Enjoy the lessons. Rent a boat and take the Mrs. (sans kids; much less worrying) out for a sail in a place that is familiar to you, let her see your joy and passion. Make it nice and stress free for her. Either she'll like it or she won't. Adjust your plans accordingly.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

You’ve defined the conundrum pretty well, but only you can solve for it. In the end, it’s all going to be on you. Don’t force. Your wife will just be defensive and you may put everyone in a position beyond your capability and scare them (and maybe yourself).

Take it a step at a time. If it actually becomes a passion for you, they may follow. They may not. Be prepared for either, but focus on shaking out your own interest and aptitude first. 

When you are competent and confident enough to take out the family, be sure it’s the perfect day. Great weather, not to much wind and bring all you’re wife’s fav..... food, wine, whatever it is. If she finds a new friend, at your new marina, who is more interested in sailing, she may become more interested too.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Scandium said:


> My concern with taking wife and/or kids on a 22 ft boat is that she might hate it and say never again.


Then start with renting or chartering the 30 footer! The 30 footer will be more stable if there is a chop and a 15 knot breeze, but under benign conditions, well, there's really not that much difference in apparent stability. And the smaller boat will be more lively in light air, and therefore, more fun. Also, in terms of comfort, the size of the cockpit on a 25 foot boat is not that much different than a 30. This is of course highly dependent on the model of boat, but the old school of thought was that you didn't want a big cockpit for safety reasons; you didn't want the cockpit to be a liability if it flooded with water. And most designers put the extra boat length under the cabin, not in outdoor living space. I think the thinking was that the market was catering to those that wanted to cruise their boats, and so they needed that 5th or 6th bunk, the bigger galley, more storage, etc. More modern designs stress the cockpit as an outdoor living area, at the expense of storage and accommodations.

It sounds to me like you've got a plan. Go for it. Please let us know how it turns out. One tip I will offer you: one of the main reasons my wife likes the boat is that most of our friends love to get a once or twice a season invite for a weekend day sail. So my wife likes to be the hostess on these jaunts. They have ranged from day-long sails to nearby beaches, islands (or just aimlessly sailing around), to 10 minute motoring trips to the harbor to anchor and swim, to a brief trip upriver to a brew-pub that has a dock. The itinerary for each trip is completely dependent on the guests and the weather. Two of the husbands from these couples trips have become go-to guys who will sail with me at the drop of a hat. Ya never know.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I feel you are going about this all in the wrong order. You know nothing about sailing. You are not even sure you will like sailing but are planning around your new found love, your wife's needs and your children's wants. 

The biggest factor in your wife and kids enjoyment of the sport is based on you. If you take two ASA classes and buy a 30 foot boat then expect your family to be your crew on your first voyage you are bound to fail in making this the new family pastime.

Make sailing your thing this summer. Take some classes, join a club and sail whenever you can. Don't take out your family until you know what you are doing, you will need help sailing a 30 foot boat your first summer. You have one chance to blow it and your wife will never like sailing again. If you want to take your family out the first season, hire a captain for a 30+footer to see how they like it.

After a year of this if you and your family still like sailing consider a club with bigger boats or buy a 27 footer. You can get a nice one for between $5-10k. It's small enough to handle yourself. It should have standing headroom, an enclosed head and a workable galley. It has the bare minimum to make a non sailing spouse happy, and if the family does not take to sailing, your losses will be minimized.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Indeed its more that just boat length. You can get a 35 foot C-Scow or other racing style boat and it will be long however the family would probably like a 15 foot picnic boat better due to its less extreme manners. A short outing for a picnic in calm weather on a well behaved picnic boat can be less overwhelming to the family than a ride out past the breakwater on a big fast boat. Being out of sight of land and potential quick assistance can overwhelm the wife too.

We see this at the sailing center on a regular basis where someone insists he wants to rent a performance boat and keeps his families anxiety levels pretty high with the boat heeled way too far over and water coming over the leeward side many times dumping them in the water. There are a number of picnic islands within view of the sailing center and a short outing to one of them with even a takeout lunch from McDonalds can be a fun first intro for the family. Some even take a beach rental boat while the family is enjoying a day on the beach so they can see Dad having fun on the water and get tempted to join him.

The other day we had a gent who presented himself as a proficient racer on a moderate day dump the boat he said he was familiar with after trying to sail off with the center board and rudder up and almost crashing into a dock. After missing the dock he dumped it in his rush to get it under control the moment he got the rudder down and then kept dumping it on the opposite side every time he tried to right it eventually loosing the rudder. Thankfully he was alone and did not have his family with him. I am not sure if our divers were able to find the rudder.

You won't ease the wife and family into sailing if the first outing ends up being viewed more like Mister Toads Wild Ride than a relaxing period of refreshment.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Agreed, what makes a comfortable family day sailer isn't Length Over All, its how the boat is set up and designed. To me a family day sailer should have a large cockpit with high combings to keep the little ones inside. It should be easy to sail short handed. I personally like a cat rig with all lines led to the cockpit to make sailing, tacking and reefing easy. The boat should be easy to depower to keep the ride from getting to intense for any one. Personally, I like a small cuddy cabin so kids can get out of the sun, cold, wind and bugs. Day sailors should also be easy to dock short handed, I can handle a bigger boat just fine, but around locks, docks and beaches I will always take a smaller boat for ease of handling.

I think a lot of people are turned off smaller sailboats because they are first exposed to small sailboats that are hot racing designs and either sailed fast or sailed by folks who don't know how to chill a boat out.

Here is my 3 y.o. son, hound an I out for a autumn sail on my little 21 foot boat. Stress, risk of capsize and getting wet are not of the least concern. You can take it easy on a small boat if you chose to.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Arcb - Exactly. 

We have two similar boats side by side in the yard with one being a Catalina Capri and the other a Galilee 15. Those that have sailed both greatly prefer the Galilee for a family boat though those who are more race-centric really don't like it. The Galilee is only a few inches longer but about 6 inches wider along with 200 lbs heavier (most of that below the waterline and in the daggerboard) while LWL of the Galilee is 3 inches shorter than the Capri. I have been fixing it up in my spare time and now that I have it in the yard am getting more and more folks coming by to ask about the sweet little family boat. Spent about the whole day yesterday scrubbing her down with AcidEasy with a bit of Dawn Dish Soap followed by a going over with MagicErasers since she has been sitting outside on the hard for some years unattended after someone crashed her into the dock and then vandals stole the tiller head

The only thing I really do not like is that she does not have a jack to hold up the boom when you drop sail so I am tempted to put some type of BoomKicker on it while I am at it.

Today I hopefully will be putting on the new standing and running rigging along with the freshly varnished teak, etc. Within the week its hoped to have her back out on the water for the first time in many years with those that know her requesting that I take her out of the rental pool so she doesn't get beat up again and gets shown the respect she deserves.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Forty five years ago I learned the difference between lightweight day sailers and introductory level cruisers. The comparison was between my 17’ Daysailor (~700# displacement) and my neighbor’s 24’ Dolphin (~ 5000# displacement). We had that Daysailor for 10 years before moving up to a 2500# catboat, which we had for about 15 years. Twenty two years ago we acquired our 12500#, 35’ sloop.

Some thoughts: 
1. The Daysailor was fine for protected waters and had a large cockpit that could handle the 2 kids, parents, and dog for “picnic” sails within about 6 or 7 miles from our dock. It was a little tender, so we had a masthead floatation device installed to prevent the worst in a capsize, although we never capsized. There was no porta potti, so our excursions were limited to a few hours.
2. The catboat was a quantum leap forward, based on displacement, form stability, and a small cabin. Inside accommodations were only for 2, so we rotated the crew for overnights, but we could range beyond protected waters as far as 35 miles from out dock, which opened up our cruising grounds to include Block Island and Shelter Island. That boat had a very large cockpit. We were comfortable in higher winds, having sailed comfortably to/from Block Island in open water with 20 kt winds—except for the typical catboat weather helm being tiring.
3. The neighbor’s Dolphin was a step up in cruising accommodations and was more capable of challenging conditions. We really felt secure on that boat, but I only was on it for racing.
4. The next quantum leap forward was our 35’ sloop. Stand up headroom, enclosed head, separate cabins, and go anywhere capability in the occasional nasty conditions that can happen on longer cruises. Once past the 1700 mile delivery trip to Mystic from Clearwater Beach, FL, our cruising range included Nantucket (200 mi round trip) and Maine (600 mi round trip) with lots of shorter cruised in the 100 mi round trip category. Over the years we have occasionally—albeit rarely—suffered conditions that would have been truly scary in the smaller boats.

Each of these step-ups revealed improvements in comfort and safety, but more importantly opened up our cruising horizons. It is a lot easier to scare the family on a small boat, so that you might never graduate to a better option. The enhanced cruising option created a different mind set, where we became much more sensitive to longer term weather forecasts and tidal current patterns. Also important was learning to handle the increased size and weight as we stepped up. The difference in handling was more quantitative than qualitative, meaning that your basic sailing skills are transferable across different sized boats, but your comfort, safety, and enjoyment are only improved as you go bigger.

Another factor is your “cruising grounds”. If you are constrained in how far you can venture, the larger boat might not be practical to own.

My bottom line: There is a different perspective you will develop with the different sized boats and that perspective is not linearly scalable from small to medium to large. IMHO, you need to sample the different sizes before making a long term commitment. And you need to be extra careful not to scare the family with a bad experience in a small boat.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Scandium said:


> Apart from some stuff about ropes and wind unique to sailboats, I have a pretty good idea.. .


It's only a rope until you take it aboard a sailboat. Then it becomes a "line'"


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jephotog said:


> It's only a rope until you take it aboard a sailboat. Then it becomes a "line'"


Mostly true, but like everything, there are a very few exceptions. Bolt rope and bell rope come to mind.

Of course, others don't maintain their original rope reference, but don't become lines either, such as sheets and rode.

Who made this stuff up?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Scandium said:


> yes I know..
> Or a "sheet"? I don't know the difference. Line is fine, sheet just sounds silly to me..


I would get used to it. If I had to pick one, I would say the mainsheet is the most important one on the boat. Come to think of it, the jibsheet is #2. I don't know what else you would call them.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

A sheet is a line (rope, cable or chain) used to control the movable corner(s) (clews) of a sail.

"Sheet" derives from Old English "scéata" meaning the lower corner of a sail.

Sheet describes the job the line performs. Line is generic for whatever product is used and can be rope, cable, chain or whatever new stuff they come out with to use instead of them.


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## Tetsuo (Jul 22, 2009)

Wow, this has been a great thread to read for me! It has taken me a few days to read through all the posts.:0) A lot of great information here. I think it comes down to there are many different types of sailors and what people want from sailing. And it changes for everybody all the time. I am in the phase where I just took my 103 and 104 and looking for the next step with a club or sailtime. I was a member at chesapeake boating club as well. 
And I have no friends who sail...yet. My wife is really into it though, which is lucky. 
We want to do a trip to the San Juan islands as our first trip. Off the cost of Oregon and Washington.


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## Tetsuo (Jul 22, 2009)

Scandium, 
We are in a similar place with our sailing careers. I am hoping you might want to talk about sailing.
Next step email. [email protected]
I am looking at sailtime or capitolsbc_comOur Fleet
also boatsetter_com, and getmyboat_com. 
I don't have enough posts to add links to my messages either.
SO my email address and the other links I had to change slightly

I tried to PM you, but I don't have enough posts on the sailnet site.
Regards,
Chris


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Tetsuo said:


> Scandium,
> We are in a similar place with our sailing careers. I am hoping you might want to talk about sailing.
> Next step email. [email protected]
> I am looking at sailtime or capitolsbc_comOur Fleet
> ...


Thanks! 
PM'd. Let me know if you're able to reply
saved your email. Might want to edit it out so you don't get spammed


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Tetsuo said:


> Wow, this has been a great thread to read for me! It has taken me a few days to read through all the posts.:0) A lot of great information here. I think it comes down to there are many different types of sailors and what people want from sailing. And it changes for everybody all the time. I am in the phase where I just took my 103 and 104 and looking for the next step with a club or sailtime. I was a member at chesapeake boating club as well.
> And I have no friends who sail...yet. My wife is really into it though, which is lucky.
> We want to do a trip to the San Juan islands as our first trip. Off the cost of Oregon and Washington.


Yes indeed "Something for Everybody". Imagine what it would be like if the only choice was Lite Beer! To me "A Fate Worse than Death" while to others "Heaven".

To some it may seem like this:


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

I skipped over a few pages of this thread...GO FOR THE SAILING CLASSES!!

I chartered for years & got BBC certified. The pros to that was that I had a crew list & we'd share the cost of the charter. I'd go out every other weekend for $100 a pop (plus lunch of course). It was a great way to meet other sailors & try different boats. If it was a particularly windy day forecast, I could ask for a specific certification in the crew settings. Loved it!!

The cons were availability of the boats, 7 day cancellation policy (no illnesses & better hope that 10 day prediction doesn't change). I did get in an accident with the boat that was going to happen anyway, I just happen to have the charter that day (the traveler came loose & then tore off @ the fiberglass). I can't tell you how many times I've had to sail to the fuel dock because of engine problems, even on the boats that were relatively new. 

I bought my own boat about 18 mos ago, a 38' Beneteau, 2001. I really wasn't looking, besides peeking around a bit on rainy days. My kids are grown, and I kind of thought, "now or never," so I made an offer on it. It fell through, I happily chartered for the next 7 mos. until I saw the boat switched brokers & dropped the price. I made another (lower) offer & finally got it!

Pros - OMG, I love that thing! I've learned to single handed sail, I spend the night on it & just watch movies as a little staycation. We had my son's engagement party where his friends from out of town stayed @ the house & we stayed on the boat. The availability whenever I want - last week I was close by w/ a friend & we just hopped on @ sailed for a few hours. It's 20 min away, during the summer @ the house it can get to be over 100 & I just go hang out w/ the sea breeze. I leave all my gear on it, no lengthy check out process. 

Cons - I lost my crew list  I joined a YC to try & meet other sailors, the crew list doesn't work the same. I've noticed that w/out the shared cost crew list, people are no shows last minute (which is why I single handed) I also never have an experienced crew. My family tolerates sailing, it's not their passion, so unless I'm super specific people do the craziest things in panic or effort to help. The guy in the slip next to me sold his boat after a year because of lack of getting people to go out w/ him. Oh, & of course there's the cost, but I expected that. 

All in all I'm really glad I bit the bullet!! I did take my time about it though & might have been just as content chartering had I not known how awesome this would be for me.


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## Cactus Sailing (Apr 30, 2018)

if you're buying your own boat you really need to consider how much time you will actually use it if its less than about 4 days a month you may well be better chartering once you've considered fees / maintenance etc

if your going to use it boat ownership is awesome!


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## mrWinter (May 2, 2018)

I've only chartered, never owned. I see several reasons to own rather than charter, comes down to how frequently you go out. Once or twice a year and it's a no brainer, charter.

A thing that has been annoying about chartering for me is that it's been a new boat every time, you have to learn the intricacies of the new boat each time, and they have different features and things broken. That's annoying and eats up some of your weekend out. If you own it, you know it.

The list of nice things about chartering is long though, obviously no maintenance is huge, also it's easy to go with other friends, and have them all chip in for the vacation, makes it a double-no-brainer to charter if you can do that, it's dirt cheap because your guests are paying.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mrWinter said:


> .....it's easy to go with other friends, and have them all chip in for the vacation, makes it a double-no-brainer to charter if you can do that, it's dirt cheap because your guests are paying.


This is an interesting point. Bareboat pricing I'm familiar with, in the Caribbean, requires filling every bunk aboard to get anything near what one would consider cheap. If you fill a boat, each guest's nightly rate will be competitive with a hotel room on vacation. However, that's rarely the case, as a boat gets pretty crowded with every bunk full and most boats don't have the tankage or fridge space to deal with that many people. I find having one empty bunk allows for better storage too.

Anyway, back to splitting cost. I've found it very difficult to pre-plan with another couple. Which boat, which days, which island, etc. It literally takes 1-2 months to settle. All the while, boats and airline seats are being booked.

This has been our approach the last few times out. We like having friends or family along, so we just pick the week we can go and a boat we would be willing to pay for entirely, if no one can join us. I put the deposit down and book my airline tickets, then start asking around to see if anyone wants to join us. Someone always does, but the deal is booked. No ping pong match.


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## mrWinter (May 2, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> Bareboat pricing I'm familiar with, in the Caribbean, requires filling every bunk aboard to get anything near what one would consider cheap. If you fill a boat, each guest's nightly rate will be competitive with a hotel room on vacation. However, that's rarely the case, as a boat gets pretty crowded with every bunk full and most boats don't have the tankage or fridge space to deal with that many people.


Agree with your general assessment of the pricing, fill all the bunks and it ends up being about the same or a little less than hotel rooms (would I call this cheap? probably not, nothing about this hobby is cheap). I'd say this general rule of thumb has held true for me for long weekends on the Chesapeake, a week out of Newport, and a week in the BVI on a cat. For me, filling the bunks hasn't rarely been the case however, that's been the way we always do it, in the past I wouldn't have considered leaving a bunk empty for storage. We've always managed making the tankage and fridge space work in all the previously mentioned trips. Maybe the more you do it the more the tight quarters bug you, maybe some people like more space. I've been lucky with our guests/friends that none have driven me completely nuts on any of our trips, and I get along well sharing the space with them. After a week on a 42 monohull with six people aboard (myself included) I do remember being happy to have some more space to myself. After a week on the 42 foot cat in the BVI with 9 ppl on board, I really wasn't jonesing for any more elbow room though, we were all pretty comfy.

If you are comfortable with filling the bunks and sharing the space with that many people, I'd say go for it, that's a win-win and was awesome for us. Even if you left a bunk open, I think you'd have to go very very frequently before the price became comparable with owning.



Minnewaska said:


> Anyway, back to splitting cost. I've found it very difficult to pre-plan with another couple. Which boat, which days, which island, etc. It literally takes 1-2 months to settle. All the while, boats and airline seats are being booked.


Agree that that takes effort, but hasn't been too much to ruin it for me. I've never had to do that with the guests I'm taking out as I've been the only one who knows anything about anything on the water so if we are the only boat in play I just make those executive decisions. But I've had to make plans for raft ups with other boats which requires some give and take. Usually I pick the weekend we'll go out, and then figure out the meet-up destinations later after everything's booked.



Heller Gregory said:


> I've noticed that w/out the shared cost crew list, people are no shows last minute


Interesting point, I've seen that same thing happen to a friend who owns a couple times, frustrating.

On that thought, it seems a little odd that it's socially okay for everyone to chip in on the price of a charter equally, but do the same trip on a boat you own and it would be totally inappropriate to ask people to pay some fee to join. I'm not saying I disagree with those social standards, just odd that once you make the commitment and buy a boat all your guests immediately become freeloaders rather than carrying their own weight :laugh


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

It’s not simply a social issue with sharing the cost of a privately owned vessel, it’s a legal one. Both the boat and the captain require certain licenses to accept consideration, beyond a proportional splitting of the variable costs of the trip, so long as the guest is coming along on a trip the owner was going to take without them. The point being, if you are offering your service to take people sailing and they pay you anything more than their share of the days variable cost, you’re running a business. 

The way I’ve always seen this accommodated is a guest picking up the dinner tab, maybe a fuel tab, or they bring booze or supplies for the day. Money does not directly exchange. Technically, the rules still apply, but there is zero chance that it becomes a legal issue.

I never expect a guest to pay or bring anything. Most do, but I truly don’t expect it. Most try to pick up a bar tab, or dinner, or something, but I don’t accept it all and never keep track of whether they’ve paid their fair share. It’s just a nice gesture. I admit, there is the rare adult guest (kids don’t count), who may come and never even offer to split a lunch tab, let alone pick it up. I invited them, so have no expectations they pay for anything. But I do find it a little rude that they don’t offer.


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## johnjayson (Apr 27, 2018)

renting a boat will reduce unnecessary costs to maintain your boat, not to mention about the storms or accidents that can be happened. If you only need a boat for few days, there's no reason to buy the whole boat


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## gyurmak (May 3, 2018)

Absolutelly agreed. It depends of how much time you have for sailing. It's worth to try first!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

johnjayson said:


> ....not to mention about the storms or accidents......


Be careful of this point. Some rentals make you fully responsible for damage, whether it's your fault or not. I've not heard of any that would charge you for ordinary wear and tear, but be sure to understand your liability.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> Be careful of this point. Some rentals make you fully responsible for damage, whether it's your fault or not. I've not heard of any that would charge you for ordinary wear and tear, but be sure to understand your liability.


Good point.

We just had a renter knock down a boat 3 or 4 times and loose the rudder. He claimed he had many years experience racing that class of boat and I am 80% certain that I saw him try to sail off without the rudder installed and 100% certain he did not have the center board down. In his haste to get control after he raised the sails and not crash into another dock he dropped the center board without the rudder in place then in his rush to put the rudder back on he did not lock it down so when he kept knocking the boat down from one side to the other trying to right it he finally lost the rudder. Since I was not 100% certain about the rudder and the coaching cameras were not to on to confirm things it was presumed we were responsible for not locking the rudder down and he was not charged for loosing it.

The damage usually has to be pretty catastrophic and the renter quite clearly at fault before they are held to the damage clause in the rental contract however this guy, since he severely misrepresented his qualifications, likely would have been charged for the rudder if it was 100% certain that he had unlocked it and removed it from the gudgeons.

Thankfully it was not one of the Carbon Fiber competition rudders and was just the stock practice one and nobody was hurt. He gave up at that point but if he comes back for another rental I am pretty sure he will be required to take a refresher and qualifying sail with a paid coach along before being allowed to even take out a Hobie Wave.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

dadio917 said:


> You might consider a small trailer-able like a Catalina 22. Doesn't take that long to rig. You can keep it in a slip part time or just put it in when you want to use it. Off season park it in your drive. We had an O'Day 25 that we used that way for years. But it was heavy and took 3 hours to rig/derig. If i did it again i'd get something smaller.
> 
> Another thing i found was when it was parked next to the house it was easy and fun to do improvement projects on it.
> 
> ...


I know this is earlier on in the thread, but it warrants stating... Catalina 22, Oday 25, Catalina 25, S2 7.9, Capri 16.5, WWP 19, Capri 14.2, they all require about the same amount of time to launch. Trailering is harder, launching maybe harder the heavier it gets (if you have a lighter two vehicle)... But I can say I could get my S2 launched as fast or faster than my Capri 14.2... but both took a decent amount of time (1 hour roughly) to prepare for launching. Add a few more minutes (10-15) to get sails bent on, battens in (you could stow them more efficiently of course).

My point, doesn't matter how big your trailerable is, the launch time is about the same. I struggled with my Capri 14.2 like that for a lot of years... didn't sail it much because it was a huge hassle to rig... and leaving an open dinghy at a dock seemed wastefully expensive. So I moved up to keelboats, and got a seasonal slip.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Takes about 15 to 30 minutes to raise the mast and rig my 15' picnic boat from the trailer and about 5 minutes if I keep it on the trailer in the storage yard with the mast up and the sails hanging in their bag in the yards sail locker. I leave the sheets on the foresail and the battens in the main loosely rolling them up before putting them in their bag and hanging it in the sail locker to save time.

Still if you are just an occasional sailor a $400 club membership with no extra charge for taking out a loaner is the inexpensive way to go. You do have to take the sails out of the locker and rig them along with put them away afterwards though so launch time is about the same as leaving it mast up on a trailer.


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

You can buy a boat & have it chartered, although just a few hours ago I saw a brand new Beneteau 35 smack into a wood piling leaving the dock & left a nasty scar it looked like. For charging passengers, you have to have a Captains license. 

I don't ever charge either, usually my passengers pay for my lunch. Some have bought me unbelievable gifts, one couple brought me a happy hooker boat hook that I never would have bought myself & have taken them out a lot. Another friend is a great sailor, I love it when he comes along because I know he can take the helm @ any time. 

The funniest crew member was a single guy a friend insist I invite w/ she & her H. I said I didn't want it to seem like an "invite" and she naively said he would never think that (I'm m'd, my h was out of town). My friend & her H paid for all of our lunches, I have to admit, the single guy was great crew. We got back & he helped me while they ran off right away. The single guy & I walked down to dinner, when the bill came he said "How do you want to pay for this?" I said, "I have cash" meaning - I'll pay my half in cash. He said, "OK" & I paid for the whole thing. It was pretty funny, I think he was auditioning for being my cabana boy. Just had to share that one...

Otherwise, no, I never expect anything from my guests & there's usually something I need to buy or fix before I go back out.


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