# Catamaran flipped two die



## davidpm

https://www.9news.com.au/national/n...nsw-news/3981916e-0ce4-4f34-93ba-54ad9c07c49c

They said the wind was 30knots.


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## Minnesail

That's awful.

I wonder what the make of the boat is. It says 11.7 meters, so about 38 feet for us Americans.

Catamarans shouldn't just flip like that...


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## SanderO

Without a keel they don't have much righting moment...


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## MarkofSeaLife

The boat was heading south.



> The conditions were difficult. We had 25 to 30-knot westerly winds with a sea of 1 to 2 metres [easterly swell] coming the other way, so it was fairly messy out there," he said.


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## overbored

It is a Spirited 380 and not the first one to flip over. big winds and waves and any cat can flip with almost no way to recover. it is winter down there.


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## MarkofSeaLife

A home made kit boat

https://www.spiriteddesigns.com.au/spirited_380



> Sailing caracteristics:
> This is a nice and fast sailing machine. She goes well to about 40 degrees apparent wind angle, does not like the mainsail to be sheeted in too close though. Like many cats she kicks up her skirts when the wind gets to approx. 10 - 12 kts and accelerates quickly. Running due downwind with only the jib in an E force 6 - 7 off Tarifa we were happilly running at 12 - 14 kts, topping 18 kts surfing down the waves with full boat control. Seeing double digit sailing figures becomes quite normal. She tackes happily and easily in smooth waters, in waves this was only achieved with backing the jib with the mainsail being uncleated.
> 
> Critisism:
> 1) The most important one has to do with the placement of the engines right at the aft end of the hulls under the steps, with engine access only from the outside via forward hinged hatches incorporating one of the steps (see one of the pictures below). Though this arrangement allows one to stand on the lowest step and easily work on the engine, it only gives about 30 cm of wave clearance - this is not enough wave clearance in a seaway to open the hatch at sea if access is needed! One would also be fully exposed to the elements and the risk of falling overboard is also not to be overlooked. This in my eyes is a very bad design issue!
> 2) For a modern cat I would have expected it to have more bridgedeck clearance - at the aft end of the bridgedeck I measured 505mm / 560mm with / without bridgedeck stringers -, in the right wave conditions there is quite a lot of wave slamming - but this increase in bridgedeck clearance would reduce the headroom in the main cabin.
> 3) I feel she would also benefit from larger rudders to make her more responsive to rudder movement.


Review at http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?4104-Spirited-380-catamaran

Scary thought:
18 knots downhill and hit a wave from the other direction, nit enough rudder to stop a flip.

Yikes


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## Scandium

also noted that all five were wearing life jackets


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## krisscross

That is really awful... :/
But these are not really that uncommon conditions: 30 knots of wind and 6 foot seas. I wonder if they had too much sail for the conditions. I sailed smaller cats (beach cats) and when over canvassed they were quite unstable.


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## Minnewaska

Typically, we mono hull drivers use news like this to poke our multi hull siblings a bit, but not the right time, given the fatality.

Instead, I’ll point out that I was up close with the one and only brand new Gunboat 68 last week. No 30 knot wind is going to flip that thing over. It was a beast. A serious floating mansion, not condo. If I ever go multi, that’s my first pick. 🙂


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## Minnesail

I calculate a SA/D of 32.5

I don't know catamarans, but that seems like a lot of sail.


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## Minnesail

Cruisers Forum: Spirited 380


> Hi we owned a Spirit 380 for a couple of weeks before it flipped of Kangaroo Island. We were in the water for about 6 hours before being winched off. The boat was ashore 4 months later about 600NM away.
> News Video - Yahoo!7 News
> 
> Here is a link to the Building of our boat by the original owner
> 
> It took this builder 2 and half years to build full time with two people working on about 6500hours
> 
> Building the Cat
> 
> The boat sailed along well but anything over 10 + knots it just did not seem to sit well in the water was very light in the water.
> 
> The design is very roomy inside and has quite a good layout
> 
> We did contact the designer after the incident but did not have any joy there.
> 
> We now have a new yacht built by Robert Chamberlin it is another Cat 11.6metres in length. This yacht in my opinion is a better boat. It sits on 10 knts all day and sticks to the water like Glue. The bigger brother of this boat just broke the Australian record for sailing around Australia see link
> 
> Bruce Arms
> 
> Hope this helps a little


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## MarkofSeaLife

> David Biggar recorded 15-knot cruising, with one spurt of 22, in 18 knots of breeze.


https://www.yachtandboat.com/spirited-380-self-build-yacht-review/

So.... In 30 knots???


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## colemj

SanderO said:


> Without a keel they don't have much righting moment...


They have a huge low angle righting moment several times that of a monohull, becoming equal to that of monohull at ~50* heel, then decreasing to no righting moment at ~90*.

The overall rotational energy (area under the stability curves) required to capsize a catamaran is ~50% greater than that required to capsize a monohull.

So catamarans have large righting moment, are harder than a monohull to capsize, but will not recover from a capsize, where a monohull has some non-zero chance of recovery (but less than 100% chance).

Mark


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## Minnesail

Here's another thread about a lost Spirited 380. Given the small number made, it seems like an awfully high number have run into problems. I wonder if it's the boat, or the conditions that people sail them in?

Cruisers Forum: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea


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## MarkofSeaLife

3 in 10 years?


:|


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## outbound

Capsize is one concern pitchpoling is the other. Just like monos there are boats better suited for heavy seas and air and those best considered coastal. . Would have no problems jumping on a Rapido 60 for rtw. It would be quick.
As stated above 6’ seas shouldn’t capsize any ocean boat be it mono or multi. Although there maybe a component of operator error ( no mention if they were reefed and to what degree).


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## colemj

There are almost no recorded incidents of ocean sailing, non-racing catamarans pitchpoling. It just isn't a real concern in a cruising catamaran. Chances are pretty much zero in any conditions compared to capsize.

And there is no practical difference between a pitchpole and a capsize - in both instances the boat is overturned and is not coming right side up again.

The Rapido 60 is not a catamaran.

Mark


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## MarkofSeaLife

Just wild thoughts here...

I'm not cat sailor but I've taken Hobies out a few times and managed to dig a hull in and flip the boat at full speed, butt over bow. The occasion I remember I was thrown 20 feet forward. Well clear of the hull, mast and sail. That's a long way! 

Other times I learned to dump the main whilst the bow was digging in. 

The boat in question with a full 30 knots (plus gusts? But those westerlies are quite stable) on a beam reach, would be going FAST. The owners were 78 years old. The son in his 50s but wasn't the owner so I wonder his sailing skills and the young teen.
The swell was Easterly. 
The rudder underpowered. 
A go fast cat doing 15 knots or more. 
The sails fully powered (?) 
Mainsheet loaded. 
The boat - sailing flat even - digs the Lee bow into a 6 foot wave.... How does a 78 year old dump the main before it flips?


Mark


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## SHNOOL

I'm loving on all the sailors who have never sailed more than beach cats comparing them to cruising cats...
to put it in perspective its like comparing a laser to a J-35.

Come on folks. For a cruising cat a 38 footer is SMALL. Its still a 20,000lb boat its no beach cat. Much like attempting to attack the sea in a Catalina 30, it can do it, but its not exactly a bluewater mono.

30 knots is NOTHING for a cruising cat. 8 foot seas are nothing. However, step periods and confused seas can turn any boat into a pile of sticks as any great lakes sailor!

This is a tragedy, and likely happened due to quickly deteriorating conditions. Respect for those who lost lives. Sounds like captain knew things were getting snotty, and had crew properly suit up (life vests), and managed to activate EPIRB.

The whole catamaran versus mono debate is tired at best. It is true that once capsized you are toast in a cat, but its also true that they are much harder to flip, thanks colemj for putting some logic into the argument.


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## MarkofSeaLife

SailingUphill said:


> For a cruising cat a 38 footer is SMALL. Its still a 20,000lb boat its no beach cat.


If you go follow the links you'll find it's not anywhere near 20,000 pound. But 10,000. 5 tons. 
That's more like a beach cat than a Lagoon 440.

We do like to hear your point of view. Not necessarily your opinions on other people's points of view 

Mark


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## colemj

Digging the bow of a cruising catamaran into a 6' wave should be a non-event. We've done this hundreds of times without any concern or feeling of the boat being on edge. Six foot seas are calm waters offshore.

I've never been on a Spirited 380, but they look to be a good design. On the other hand, they have the same sail area and 1/3 the weight of our 46' catamaran, so it is likely they need to be sailed a bit conservatively at times. I don't know what the sail configuration was on the boat, but in 30kt winds on a beam reach, we would be triple reefed, or just sailing on headsail alone, and enjoying a leisurely and easy 9-10kt pace. Anything more would be outside our comfort zone.

Mark


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## Minnewaska

I dislike catamarans. Try to prove I don't. 

Well, except the aforementioned Gunboat 68.


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## MarkofSeaLife

colemj said:


> in 30kt winds on a beam reach, we would be triple reefed, or just sailing on headsail alone, and enjoying a leisurely and easy 9-10kt pace. Anything more would be outside our comfort zone.
> 
> Mark


And you're not 78 years old.

Or are you? :devil :devil :devil


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## outbound

Have sailed Corsairs in 6’. No main. No problem. More on the beach cat end. Also have crewed in Newport Bermuda multi hull race. Again no issues even in weather.
Tend to like tris more then cats. Find less issues with slamming. Better performance to weather. Less hobbyhorsing. Trade off is less room unless you're talking about something like the Neels. But all multis are dependent upon form stability to stay upright. So the thinking for all multis compared with monos shifts. The clues that you’re overpowered are different on a multi. All multis unlike monos don’t heel much more in heavy air. They do heel a bit more but not enough for that to be the only way clue you’re waiting for. 

Unfortunate that a gunboat on its initial passage ran into trouble . And several of the newer chris white Atlantics dug a bow and flipped. The old saw “reef often...reef early” holds.


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## colemj

MarkofSeaLife said:


> And you're not 78 years old.
> 
> Or are you? :devil :devil :devil


I look just like my avatar - something you can't say... :wink

Mark


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## Minnewaska

outbound said:


> ....Unfortunate that a gunboat on its initial passage ran into trouble.....


Are you referring to the 55 that dismasted off of Hatteras? Found upright and afloat a year later, as I recall. Amazing.

Still, add 13 ft seemed to be the response, by Gunboat.


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## outbound

Think it also down flooded the engines and had steering troubles from what I recall. Still a friend did a long delivery on the 55 and absolutely loved the boat. Couldn’t say enough good about it. Excellent ride, pleasant to live on on passage and of course speedy.


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## Minnewaska

It was much more than just the mast, as I recall, as well.

There was one thing I really disliked about the 68. The cleat were all retractable, and the hulls were painted grey. There was no toe rail, so the docklines laid directly on the hulls. As a result, each dockline had a custom fleece cover and there was a pad laid out over and around each cleat, when extended. The pad was obviously custom to fit over. 

Seemed like way to much effort to prep to be slip side. Of course, this boat was professionally crewed, so they need something to do, I suppose.


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## jblumhorst

outbound said:


> Have sailed Corsairs in 6'. No main. No problem. More on the beach cat end. Also have crewed in ...(snipped) The clues that you're overpowered are different on a multi. All multis unlike monos don't heel much more in heavy air. They do heel a bit more but not enough for that to be the only way clue you're waiting for.
> 
> ...snipped... The old saw "reef often...reef early" holds.


+1

We frequently sail our Corsair 24 in 28-33 knots steady with higher gusts under #2 reef and small jib. The boat doesn't give us any warning that we're overpowered, so I reef early upwind, and reef downwind or reaching when the speed exceeds about 13 kts.

We've hit 15 kts through the water a few times on a reach or run, but I'm a chicken, so I reduce sail when that starts to happen.

I am perfectly happy to sail at 11-13 kts of boat speed. There's no need to be greedy on a multihull in high winds. It's not safe. You gotta stay within the limits of the boat and the crew.


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## Ninefingers

jblumhorst said:


> +1
> 
> We frequently sail our Corsair 24 in 28-33 knots steady with higher gusts under #2 reef and small jib. The boat doesn't give us any warning that we're overpowered, so I reef early upwind, and reef downwind or reaching when the speed exceeds about 13 kts.
> 
> We've hit 15 kts through the water a few times on a reach or run, but I'm a chicken, so I reduce sail when that starts to happen.
> 
> I am perfectly happy to sail at 11-13 kts of boat speed. There's no need to be greedy on a multihull in high winds. It's not safe. You gotta stay within the limits of the boat and the crew.


A Corsair 31 just capsized in the LO300 an hour ago. I have no information as to how or why it happened. It was leading the race. Wind gusts were 25 knots in the area, but Lake Ontario can offer up some pretty severe bursts. All safe aboard USCG vessel.


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## chef2sail

The cat vs mono arguments tire me. Their never needs to be a comparison. One that flips, sinks..you need to look at the operator. Both types of boats in experienced hands can perform well. Again it has to do with the operator. 

Age is not determine a faultfull operator. I don’t see that as a criterion. Your brain isn’t slower , your skill are not forgotten with age, your ability to make decisions is still there. I get tired of people stereotyping people by age. 

Sure I understand that you physically loose some strength...and maybe balance but really what difference does 78 mean in terms of him sailing or captaining a vessel.

The determining factor in this capsize will probably be found as a bad decision in terms of conditions. As Mark said the conditions mention are certainly nothing unusual for a well built boat, catamaran or mono.....but the person steering the boat may be the weak link here....but not by age....but by decision making


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## Captain Canuck

"Never forget that the sea is a harsh mistress, and will kill you if you let her."

Probably the wisest sailing advice I've ever been given.

My heart goes out to everyone who's lost someone at sea.


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## ronhughb

Just to put the mono vs Cat argument in perspective, it's probably better to be in a cat upside down than a mono going to the bottom. Just today, July 16, the Santa Cruz 70 (mono) OEX sank several hundred miles offshore during the second night of the 2019 Transpac. Her rudder shaft tore open a hole in the stern and they could not control the flooding. All 11 crew were saved by Roy Disney's boat nearby that diverted to pick up two life rafts of crew and return to San Pedro. OEX is at the bottom. As they approached in the dark, they said it was disheartening to see the boat with full sails still up going down....total loss but all crew saved......


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## colemj

Five boats have quit the race with rudder issues, which seems high to me. A couple are taking on water and seriously listing, but the crews are working hard to get them back in before they sink. Luckily, they all happened on the first half of the race.

The Mod-70 trimaran Maserati hit a large floating object that punched a hole in the bow of one hull and took out one rudder. They are still racing by keeping the damaged bow out of the water and using the good rudder. Making good speed too, but their tactics will be limited.

Mark


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## MarkofSeaLife

colemj said:


> They are still racing by keeping the damaged bow out of the water and using the good rudder. Making good speed too, but *their tactics will be limited*.
> 
> Mark


"Ready to go About!!"

:devil


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