# Fast, pretty and comfortable... Alerion vs. ???



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hello,

Here's my boat-buying dilemma, and would appeciate some opinions...
I am experienced sailor on the cusp of making my first substantial boat purchase. I'm looking for a boat in the 28-32 ft range that is:

1. Fast and fun to sail. 
2. Has beautiful lines.
3. Can be overnighted/weekended in reasonable comfort.

I don't necessarily care about racing per se, but I am performance-oriented sailor that likes to "sail to get there" and will throw up a spinnaker in a solid breeze just for the pure fun of it. I want something quick and responsive, with a sprightly feel.

I'm considering an Alerion 28 - despite the ghastly price - because of its looks, quick performance, reasonable draft and suitability for the local sailing I will do most often. But it is very spartan for overnighting and is a little scary in the "not-much-boat-for-the-money" category.

Before I take this plunge, can anyone recommend a boat in this size range that has the looks AND the performance, with a little more in the way of creature comforts than the Alerion? I'm in the used market with a budget ceiling of ~$70k including whatever refit is needed to make the boat near-new.

Thanks in advance for your input!

Stephan


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## Chuteman (May 23, 2006)

*Nice Taste*

Alerion is a beautiful boat....but you are right about price.
You may want to so some searches on Yachtworld.com or similar sites to see what else a $70k budget will buy.
You maybe trying to get the best of all categories which experts say is impossible.......one of the gang will correct this but think you can only get 2 out of 3 = Price, Speed, Comfort/Capacity. Will depend on how you plan to use.
I did a quick search & there are a few nice boats ie; Tartan, Mumm, etc beyond the typical big producers. Good Luck


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## mgiguere (May 22, 2004)

*A 28 alternatives*

Go for one of the J boats on the used market. You could get a pretty good one for that money....J30 or thereabouts. Light, sprightly, and probably better for overnight. Also, the J is the only boat I know that you could sail (tack) with the main alone. Has a smaller foretriangle and could handle similarly to the A28 (which has a self tacking smaller jib--same concept).

Although the A28 is probably better constructed, the J is probably not that far behind.

Another alternative would be any of the C&C boats. They are fast, wll built and would be good for overnight accomodations.

I also know of a Cal 35 that would be available in that price range...very quick and could be had in the 40's.

Moe

Moe


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

In the 28' range I don't believe you'll find anything along the lines of the Aileron.. a few lately from the high end manufacturers in the 36 - 42 foot range but they obviously won't fit your budget. With 70K to spend you can easily find a boat that is suitable for your purposes, but the Aileron's characteristic appearance is rare indeed. I'd recommend a fractional rig for ease of handling and versatility of sail power. Though the J30 is nowhere in the Ailerons class, it may suit your needs and leave you a lot of money for upgrades. There are other similar sized (and similarly rigged) boats from the European makers that may fit that bill as well.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Thats a pretty good budget for this range - I'd go for as big as you can afford. 32 feet will shrink real quickly once you get it wet.
As to the Alerion, it certainly is hansome, but I would not think too good on your "fast" objective - i.e rating some where around 168, and no spinnaker rigging. You'd think they at least have a sprit on it for a asynch...

My advice is look at the quality builders, Tartan, Cal, Ericson and C&C, in the 32-33 range. Be sure to get one with spinnaker gear installed. Here's two of my favorite models as examples, both rating around 132:

http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&currencyid=100&boat_id=1530803&checked_boats=1530803&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp%3FtoPrice%3D60000%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26sm%3D3%26toLength%3D33%26cit%3Dtrue%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26fromLength%3D30%26fromPrice%3D40000%26slim%3Dquick&searchtype=

http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&currencyid=100&boat_id=1596802&checked_boats=1596802&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp%3Fblc%3D15275%26toPrice%3D60000%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26uom%3D126%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26duom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26wuom%3D126%26ywbtc%3D25877%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26toLength%3D33%26fromLength%3D30%26ps%3D20%26fromPrice%3D40000%26slim%3Dquick%26prc%3D9886%26so%3D0%26n%3D1%253A1%253A60140%253A60753%253A880&searchtype=


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

It certainly is a pretty boat, although I just have a personal problem with a 
70k boat with 20.00 walmart cooler as the "icebox" .

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...s.jsp;jsessionid=cP5zwWItE9e_&boat_id=1567351


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks for the quick and thoughtful feedback from all of you, I will poke around and consider the good suggestions. One thing seems clear... there is a gaping hole in the current boatbuilding market. Someone needs to revisit the glorious pocket cruisers of the past and apply - with equal parts engineering savvy and modesty - some modern engineering priciples to make them perform to more current standands. A Bristol 32/Alberg 30/Pearson Triton for 2006. If Beneteau and Catalina can manage to stick a three bedroom house into an ugly 30-footer, you would think that someone could manage to build a passable studio apartment into a pretty one that maintains a credible showing on the knotmeter. I agree that that a J30 meets the functional requirements... just wish I get get more excited about it. Maybe sailing is believing...
Stephan


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

venturi -

Correct me if I am not too clear on your requirements...

It seems to me that you are looking for a performance sailboat... a sailboat with a fin keel and fairly lightweight to boot. But one that looks like a classic. Goes pretty fast and responsive.

If that is exactly what you are looking for... There are only one boat I know that fits your requirements.

Its the Alerion Express 28. Its pretty sad, I know but that is the only one in the 28 - 32 feet range, under 70K.

There are no others, as far I know. If you are willing to consider old heavy full keel sailboats with character then you have many, many good choices out there and many good people who can refurbish it to a condition superior to even a new Alerion Express 28. I know of a Triton that was converted to a daysailer with a huge 12 foot cockpit. It was completed last year and it looked better in person than an Alerion Express 28. More beautiful, even. But it would never be able to truly compete in speed because... its a full keel sailboat weighting about a ton more (dimensions of the Triton is very similar to the Alerion Express 28, other than the keel and weight).

If you want another alternative to the Alerion Express 28, you'll have to increase your size and budget range. There are a couple of nice Joel White Designed Center Harbor 31s (cold molded wood) for 200 - 250K and the Morris 36 for even more $$.

I would suggest you to buy an Alerion Express 28 in good condition and set aside some money for a nice dinghy and money for B & Bs or hotels. Some people up here in Maine (I live in Maine) likes large daysailers best... looks beautiful, goes fast. As for accomndations for the night, they stay at the local B & Bs or motels or hotels. Doing things this way would actually save you money in the long run if you do not do that many overnights. Those hot/cold water systems, AC, heaters, etc do cost money and maintenace.

Links for your perusal (fun) ...

http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1351088&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=71531&url=

http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1356014&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=71531&url=

http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1602434&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=12744&url=

http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&currencyid=100&boat_id=1594601&checked_boats=1594601&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp%3Fblc%3D21889%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26uom%3D126%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26sm%3D3%26duom%3D126%26spc%3D1218%26wuom%3D126%26ywbtc%3D25916%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26toLength%3D33%26fromLength%3D28%26ps%3D30%26ps%3D30%26slim%3Dquick%26spid%3D118%26so%3D0%26n%3D3%253A1%253A72046%253A75680%253A135&searchtype=

http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&currencyid=100&boat_id=1591004&checked_boats=1591004&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp%3Fblc%3D21889%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26uom%3D126%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26sm%3D3%26duom%3D126%26spc%3D3197%26wuom%3D126%26ywbtc%3D25916%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26toLength%3D33%26fromLength%3D28%26ps%3D30%26ps%3D30%26slim%3Dquick%26spid%3D120%26so%3D0%26n%3D6%253A1%253A75111%253A78094%253A227&searchtype=

http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&currencyid=100&boat_id=1563519&checked_boats=1563519&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp%3Fblc%3D21889%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26uom%3D126%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26sm%3D3%26duom%3D126%26spc%3D3197%26wuom%3D126%26ywbtc%3D25916%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26toLength%3D33%26fromLength%3D28%26ps%3D30%26ps%3D30%26slim%3Dquick%26spid%3D120%26so%3D0%26n%3D6%253A1%253A75111%253A78094%253A227&searchtype=

I think thats enough for today...

Fair Breezes - Casey


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You got the idea, Casey... I had never seen the Joel Whites, all I can say is "wow"... thanks for the introduction, maybe I'll get there in 30 years! I agree about the restored Tritons, they are beautiful. There's a delipidated one down the street on a cradle, literally 50 yards from my house (I live next to Peconic Bay, in New York)... even in its sorry state you can see how pretty she could be. It's too bad there aren't more "modern classics" but it seems the Alerions are selling like hot cakes so maybe others will catch on. We've become such a value-oriented culture, it's become counter-intuitive to pay more for less... but I agree that keeping it simple, with fewer systems to break and fix, is not a bad way to roll. I still very much admire the Bristol 32 and the Cape Dory 31, I just think I would get frustrated with the sluggish performance... we are out there to sail first and foremost after all.
Stephan


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You might be surprised at this but that old Triton may not be a terrible boat for your needs. Sure, on PHRF ratings, its slow like hell. But as full keel sailboats goes, the Triton is better than average. PHRF ratings do not necessarily prove exactly how fast a sailboat is.

I read somewhere online (forget where) that the performance of full keel sailboats tend to drop alot as compared to a similar length fin keel sailboats once you go past 30 feet. More difficult to overcome the increased wetted surface, it seems to have something to do with that. I don't know if any of this is true but I do note that owners of full keel sailboats over 30 feet tend to grumble much more often on the slowness of their boats as compared to those who own a full keeler under 30 feet.

I sail _Fizz_, a Sea Sprite 23. She is designed by Carl Alberg and was his first fiberglass sailboat (1954 but first built in 1957). Google the Sea Sprite 23 and you can see how beautiful it is.

I did not buy _Fizz_ for her speed. I bought her for the looks. But once I sailed her for the first time, she was surprisingly fast... in 5 - 10 knot winds - the predominant winds in the summers for me. I have a 130% genoa, a largish genoa is important for light airs. In the area I sail, few boats can touch me in winds under 10 knots. I sail circles around a local Bristol 32, a sailboat you said you admire. Its a beautiful sailboat but trust me, don't buy it if you want light air performance. It goes good in winds over 15 knots but below that, even with a 150% genoa, I still can beat it with a little jib aloft on _Fizz_.

If you like the feel of a lightweight fin keel with spade sailboat, then the Alerion Express is the one, period. If you feel you might not mind a heavy full keel sailboat that will (with at least 130% or above genoa) go well in light winds but has slooow accleration, you might like the Triton. Go and bum a ride on a Triton or her smaller sister, the Ariel and see how you like them. They're certainly dirt cheap as compared to an Alerion Express.

Fair Breezes - Casey


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks, Casey. Our predominant sailing conditions here are 5-18 knots, so light air performance is key. The Sea Spite 23 is a looker, very pretty. I will explore the Triton option a little bit more, it definitely offers a compromise worth considering. It catches my eye every time I see it, so that's a start.... though I'm a little intimidated by the amount of work and money a proper restoration would take (I have a day job, and am not a marine craftsman).


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well, if you're willing to go with a full keel sailboat but do not want to work too much fixing it up and so on...

I would suggest the Cape Dory 27. Similar speed as the Triton, even though its slightly smaller. Good ones are around 17 - 25K or so. It will be much easier to find one that is in good condition and do not need all that much work needing to be done to it. A 25K Cape Dory 27 often ends up cheaper in the long run than one that cost 15K. Truthfully, a Triton, even one that cost only 1K will end up costing as much as a 25K Cape Dory 27 if you add up all of the work you will do to the Triton. The Triton is best left to people who likes to do boat projects. There are a couple of Tritons that are in excellent condition but they are extremely rare.

If I had the money and especially wanted good light air performance, I would go for the Alerion Express 28. No full keel sailboats can really compare to it but the Cape Dory 27 will do well in light airs if it has a nice sized genoa. Among the Alberg designs, the Cape Dory 27 has a good sail area to displacement ratio, among his better performing designs.

One nice example....

http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1611800&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=33226&url=

Oh by the way... you might want to check out Schock. They have a new Harbor 25 which kind of compete with the Alerion Express. Pretty but not as pretty, you know. New ones cost 70K or so. Might be too small for you though. They haven't really begun selling them, I think. Only have one hull so far.

http://www.santanasailboats.com/

Let us know what boat you eventually end up with!

- Casey


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hard to opt for a Triton rebuild after seeing that Cape Dory listing... a lot of boat - most of it quite attractive - for $23k. Definitely makes dropping $75+ for the Alerion that much harder to do. The Schock Harbor 25 is not as pretty, but they certainly do more with less... the interior is well thought out.

Ah, decisions decisions... part of what makes it fun. Thanks again for all your input, I'll keep you posted as my shopping progresses and ping you with developments.

Stephan


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

Have you considered a Stone Horse 23? It's a Sam Crocker design with a raised foredeck. It's comfortable enough for two below for a weekend, and the cockpit is fairly large. There are a number for sale on yachtworld.com right now, ranging from $15K to $27K. Not a speedster, but can hold her own.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*In the same 'boat'*

Very thoughtful response, Casey.

I'm thinking the same thing, of a traditional, good looking, fast daysailer/weekender in the same price range. I'm leaning strongly towards a used AE28, too.

The Schock 25 is well featured, but it's lines aren't as handsome.

I'm in no rush, and look forward to sorting through my thoughts over the next year or so.


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## Chuteman (May 23, 2006)

*2 More*

J/100 - beautiful in person & great sailing pedigree
http://www.jboats.com/j100/

or C&C 99

http://www.c-cyachts.com/model/mode...a91&MUID=2dfa6c71-e233-4175-ae7b-a61eae41d7de

But the Alerion is one sexy gal


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Yep, Chuteman, the J/100 is another fine choice. To me, it's just not as attractive as the Alerion 28. But, if I change my mind and consider 'modern line' daysailers, it would clearly be on the short, short list.


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

Look for a Herreshoff Rozinante. They are simple, fast, able and beautiful.
See:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...ngth=28&man=herreshoff&slim=quick&searchtype=


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## maestro (May 3, 2002)

*look*

"Although the A28 is probably better constructed, the J is probably not that far behind."

They are both made by TPI in Rhode Island. The quality and craftmanship are about the same (Both are made to high standards)

As far as what you're looking for.....fast, can sleep on for the weekend and nice lines, the Alerion is the boat. BUT, if you can stray from the "classic" looking lines of a boat....there are some great sailing Sabre's in that price range. Also, you can find (if you look hard enough)and older J105 (early hull#'s) that might sell at around $70,000 (although asking price will be higher)

best of Luck


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## LyleRussell (May 3, 2006)

J/Boats and Alerion's are built by the same folks, TPI in Warren RI. Build quality is very likely to be identical. ie Very Good.

Just finished reading the WHOLE thread. Sorry for the redundancy guys.


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## LyleRussell (May 3, 2006)

I spent 4 seasons sailing a J-105 and liked the sailing charateristics immensely. Staying aboard was a lot like camping in a pup tent.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Wow, that Herreshoff IS gorgeous! Thanks for the link.

With a full keel boat like that, I'm guessing that one has to carefully plan close quarters maneuvers, as they're impossible to pivot/have a big turning radius?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The old pearsons are great boats, but not really on the same level as an alerion. If you are willing to go higher in length, and higher in price, the hinckley pilits are beautiful and very comfortable, but are suprisingly easy to handle. You also might want to try the alberg 35 or the bristol 35 which are comprable in terms of beauty, but are significantly less in price.


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## trod44 (Oct 1, 2005)

*New Boat*

Some of the early/mid-70's Sparkman and Stephens designs look good and sail well. The Yankee 30, Tartan 30, Tartan 37, Tartan 41...all good looking boats, well built and good sailboats.

Tony


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

What about the Ensign? It sure appears gorgeous. Too slow, though?

http://www.ensignspars.com/photoGallery


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

The Harbor 25 built by WD Schock is a day sailor with classic lines and modern underbody - has a private head, plus some other features the A28 doesn't have.


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

This is the one that has been dead for 6 years Schock.


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