# LifeSling - Yea or Nay



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Shortly after the season up north ended I went to dinner with the owners/head instructors of one of the schools for which I work. During dinner the LifeSling cam up in conversation. I was surprised to hear the principals at this school express such a negative opinion of the LifeSling on a cruising boat. If I remember their arguments correctly, they believed that circling someone that had fallen in the water while under sail was too complicated. They both believed that a Figure-8 maneuver (Shout, Throw, Spot, Beam Reach, Tack, Broad Reach, Cross Wake, Luff, and Approach the COB) would be preferred to the use of the LifeSling on a cruising boat (Hunter 356). 

My counter to this argument was that I love to teach the Figure-8, but in the real world, I would have the person at the helm instruct the remaining crew to furl the headsail, sheet in or blow the main depending on conditions, start the engine and then circle the person in the water. 

Nope - they weren't buying it. Figure-8 only. They further expressed their concern that the LifeSling was a patented commercial product, and that endorsing it in class was inappropriate. 

We have other opinions that diverge, such as leeward vs windward side pickup for crew overboard, but I will save that for another thread.

What say you?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I like a fender tied to a floating rope. It's simple.

The simpler and quicker the action is, the better.
Circling is simple.


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## OldEagle (Nov 16, 2013)

The LifeSling is one more tool in your toolbox. Depending on conditions & point of sail, figure of 8 might be better, or circle with LifeSling might be better. The more options you have, with the knowledge of how/when to use them, the better your chances of a good outcome when someone goes over the side. 

As far it being a commercial product and therefore inappropriate to mention--give me a break.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Hired a couple of “captains” to teach Wife to sail. They taught the new recommended MOM techniques. Asked them to pick up a brightly colored float and were given warning at time of toss. Mild conditions 1-2’ 10-15kts. They totally failed. I taught Wife 
Throw MOM 8c
Stop boat
Drop sail/ turn on engine
Go get mom
Drag them in over sugar scoop anyway you can. Here a life sling may help

Reality is as a mom and pop if I go in the morning water I’m probably dead. If she goes in a there’s low chance she’ll make it. 
But do single handed watches when offshore. Even though I won’t let anyone go forward without first calling someone else on deck most times you’re alone. Go over then you’re dead. Boat will continue on under AP or windvane


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Depends on what level class this rescue technique is going to be taught in. Think the beginners are struggling with a lot of new skill development. Maybe this is a feel good technique for liability reasons? Yhink the time learning this would be better spent on other sailing skill development lessons.

Let's see we have horse shoe buoys, Dan buoys...and now somebody is going to moan over a product called "life sling"..geez, these guys need to get a life


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

The class that we were discussing, and where this could be covered, is ASA 104. In ASA 101 new sailors should have learned the Figure-8 and the Quick Stop. In ASA 103 sailors should have reviewed how to perform the Figure-8 in a larger cruising boat (with a wheel).

In the current ASA 104 textbook, Bareboat Cruising Made Easy, Man Overboard techniques are covered beginning on Page 160. Page 163 specifically addresses how the LifeSling is used.

Personally, I was surprised that these well-regarded instructors were adamant that this should not be covered as part of the class... maybe it's me.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

All to familiar mentality. Reminds me of the typical university professor, who is so immersed in academic perfection that they can't see reality. Teach the figure 8 to a thousand students and I'm willing to bet about 50 can still do it 5 years later. Reality. I'll up the odds to 75 will remember how to do the quick stop, beyond the first move. 

The average sailor probably gets 10 ish days on the water per year, many even less, so how would they retain it? The lifesling is virtually self evident. 

I'm not saying the lifesling is better, only that its practical. I'm 99% certain that my wife was taught how to use one in her ASA104. It may have only been discussed, rather than practiced.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Lifeslings help solve a couple of problems, getting the person to the boat and back on board if you find them. We've had them on boats, and practiced with them, they work IMHO. But they don't help find the person.

Like Out, we've carried a MOM last couple of boats. It's a PIA that you need to service the thing, but my thought is forget all this fancy stuff (Williamson turns, figure-8's, etc), pop the MOM (or throw over whatever you've got to help the person with floatation attached with a pole and flag of some sort to up the odds you'll find the guy), and then stop the boat ASAP and get back to the man overboard ASAP by whatever means you've got...which means don't be afraid to drop sails and start the engine.

We are mostly 2 handed, my wife's a great sailor and boat handler in close quarters, my biggest worry would be me finding her or her finding me. All that stuff like assigning someone to keep pointing at the man overboard doesn't work when you are one person busy maneuvering, dropping sails, starting engines, calling for help on the VHF, etc. Some of the new person AIS beacons and proximity alarms all seem worthy of discussion especially for those of us who sail watches with only 2 persons on the boat.

I don't think we should teach one technique like its the "way" and all other techniques are inferior. Same with devices like MOMs or Lifeslings. Buy this and all your problems are solved? Not true, but it's also not true that a lifesling has no value. Every situation is different based on sea state, the boat, and capabilities of crew. I think we should talk about the pro's and cons of the different techniques and equipment with new sailors, let them try figure 8, let them try a williamson turn perhaps under power, let them try a quick stop and get the sails down, and let them try different equipment if available. Get them to think about how it would be different if instead of 5 people on board taking a course, it was a crew of 2. 

Education should be about learning how to think about it. That lasts. A single technique de jour might be easier to teach but doesn't serve the student IMHO.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

The key would be if the wife would deploy the life-sling - she knows the life insurance is x3 if its an "accidental " death, I just try to stay on board.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I had to google the technique because I have never used one. Looks a little bit like picking up a water skier or wake boarder. Has any one here ever used this technique in a real world scenario. It seems like it would be slower than just bringing the boat to the person as quickly as possible and chucking them a throw bag. I can see it being useful to help some one who isn't wearing a harness get back on board the boat though.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I try to teach *everything* - in fact, I have been chastised for providing too much information. I even cover the pros and cons of windward AND leeward COB pickups (yes, there are advantages to both). I also cover the LifeSling in 104. But, as I stated I was taken aback when I learned that the guy that runs the current show does not want it covered, and seemed hostile to the idea of using one. Looking at the current poll results (6 - yea / 2 - nay), it seems like some of the folks here are in that camp too.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

My thoughts...

It's always been worthy to know...it's an active solution.

Why somebody would not want it taught is personal....direction from above them, no $s coming to them, closed mind due to.....

There's a reason.

Just keep that as a bullet point to promote when you start your own school...


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Maybe they know West Marine is the sole provider of the equipment and patent?!?!?!? altho other people designed the product, they produce it. My swag with monomy buying WM, they will not own or manufacture the product for too long. They will sell this option for the cash in the process of destroying the company like most folks of this ilk. 

Marty


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## dadio917 (Apr 4, 2011)

yea for us but we're in the ocean a bit. We have a life sling plus a completely separate horseshoe/light/flag pole combo with 30' of floating yellow line. Also have one electric winch for the halyards that if we were lucky enough to snag someone who went over with the sling or horseshoe we'd have a hope of dragging them back up. Also use jack lines if its snotty or dark. Don't have personal AIS yet but when we head off to pacific islands next year might spring for them. why not increase the odds? If my wife went over I'd want every chance.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I have one and it's inside the cockpit lazarrette. I would not try to sail to a person overboard... but furl the sail and let the main halyard go and motor with the swim ladder dropped into the water and a floating line with horseshoe at the end. I would toss everything in the cockpit that floats... PVDs and sea cushions, deploy the MOB pole with attached strobe and horseshoe. I sail 99% of the time with my wife... who does not sail, cannot drive the boat or swim... she is super careful and stays in the cockpit... often wears a PFD when conditions are "fun". I bought the lifesling hype... anyone who wants an old one can have it. Message me.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> Maybe they know West Marine is the sole provider of the equipment and patent?!?!?!? altho other people designed the product, they produce it. My swag with monomy buying WM, they will not own or manufacture the product for too long. They will sell this option for the cash in the process of destroying the company like most folks of this ilk.


Are you saying that West Marine is the sole provider of the LifeSling?


Life Sling MOB Recovery System
http://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1&id=10438
http://www.fisheriessupply.com/safety/man-overboard-rescue-equipment/lifesling
...



[EDIT] I see in the manual that West Marine DOES, in fact, manufacture the LifeSling (more likely it is manufactured under contract for WM).


> The sole obligation of West Marine shall be the repair or replacement of Lifesling3 and under no circumstances shall West Marine, its agents, of successors, be liable for any direct, consequential or other damages arising out of any claimed defect in the device or the method of its use.


If there were any heartburn with West Marine, then we would have another brand of boat hook, binoculars, dock lines, and a bunch of other stuff. West Marine, and Port Supply, must offer sailing schools a substantial discount, because of the amount of West Marine badged stuff that every school that I have worked for uses.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

@SanderO - I am in the same boat, so to speak. My wife does not swim, and does not feel comfortable at the helm when sailing (she's awesome at the helm when docking though!). On my boat, I keep the LifeSling on the pushpit because of her. She knows that if I go for an unplanned swim that the first thing that she should do is throw the LS, and the second thing is to start the motor.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

Regardless of what the instructors might think of the device, the reality is that it is being carried on a rapidly increasing number of yachts, so people ought to be taught how to use it.

IMO, there's not just one "best" way to recover a COB. The best way is any way that works. It takes more skill to use the figure 8 maneuver than the Lifesling. What could be simpler than deploying the Lifesling and circling the COB? Moreover, the Lifesling could be used in conjunction with the figure 8. For example, if you miss the COB on the first approach using the figure 8 technique, you could use the Lifesling as a throwable device. You might be able to drag it close to the COB and the COB might be able to grasp the line. The lifesling gives you options.


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## basssears (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm generally in agreement with the replies so far (which is surprising, I was afraid this might be a anchor/mono-cat type subject!)... I think it can't hurt to have a lot of different options but Lifesling is not my first. Ours now is off the stern rail, lives in a cockpit locker, is there as an aid to lifting someone into the boat only (we don't have a sugar scoop or anything so will need to use a block and tackle off the boom, which we are set up for, to lift someone)... while I can jury rig other options to do that, that's my best bet right now for bringing a person on board who can't help themselves.

I prefer the Dan Buoy inflatable pole to throw out to someone as it will stay with the overboard person while I/we corral the boat and get back to that person... the vision I've always had with the Lifesling is of it skipping along on the water behind us as we leave the person-overboard behind while maneuvering.

Another issue I wonder about with the Lifesling is how good of shape they're in... that floating line degrades in the sun REALLY quickly... everyone points to the bag it's stored in, but the bitter end has to be tied to something solid and I have - literally - broken the bitter end by hand on a boat where it had been sitting out in the sun for years... so not much good there unless you've managed to grab the line as it's feeding out and snub a solid piece of it onto a cleat before it gets to the rotten end.

I will admit I haven't practiced throwing the Lifesling much, but I have practice with seat cushions and I can't throw those very far at all, especially not with any breeze at all. I wonder how far you can really throw the sling if you try to use it that way instead of towed? For a throwable rescue I much prefer whitewater throw bags:
https://www.nrs.com/product/1825/nrs-standard-rescue-throw-bag
... you can throw a bag of rope a lot further than a Lifesling or seat cushion (although still challenging into the wind, and requires practice / familiarity).

-- Bass


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

The strategy for getting a MOB ... OB varies depending on the boat. Sugar scoop is fine if the person can get back... up... Same with our swim ladder... it's folding and when dropped you can pretty easily climb on board. I don't need to hoist someone with the boom... but the Garhaurer lifting crane for the OB is ready at the pushpit too. Lifesling will remain in the lazerette until someone claims it. I would only deploy it as flotation.. but but expect the line to be in OK... and it's not mounted nor tied off either. Quick stop, drop sails, engine on... don't take your eyes of the MOB and toss everything that floats at them... including floating heaving line.. No I will not do LS drills. nor go to LS university.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

I have practiced both the figure eight and the quick stop. I prefer the quick stop.

Here is a problem keeping the objective to leward, if there is wind my boat wants to sail even with the main luffed. I believe it's the battens maintaining sail shape.

All of my COB practice has been using a fender on a nice day in semi protected waters. So last summer we are sailing along on a breezy day in open water. Sea state was calm - wind with the current, perfect visibility, no other traffic to worry about. Towing our RIB and I decided to adjust the length...you know what happened.

Perfect, lets practice getting back to the thing under sail. Figure eight, luff everything, we can't stop the boat alongside and I don't want to risk fouling the tow line in the rudder/prop. After two tries I furl the jib, jibe and we are back at it. 25 ft of line in the water that sort of floats and I cannot stop the boat long enough to get the tow line. I give up and drop the main, using the engine, we get it in one shot.

One thing I forget to mention is that before we started our vacation we I noticed that we had lost one of our two boat hooks. When I went grab the remaining boat hook it was gone...no clue. So we are using a scrub brush to try and snag the tow line.

It took about 1/2 hour to get the dink. In the future, I will furl the jib and drop the main as I try to maneuver to keep the distance as close as possible. Doing that I believe I could have done it in 5 minutes.

Now all that being said, I tow my RIB with the outboard mounted. I'm not making long passages, I'm a weekender. If crew ever really went over;
Every cushion and could get my hands on would go over the side to mark the area.
I would release the sheets.
Jump in the RIB, lower the engine and go get them.

I believe that under most any conditions that I have ever sailed in I could be on my way to them in less than two minutes.

Crew (inexperienced) instruction from me is if I go overboard, don't even hesitate to see where I am at, uncleat the RIB and let it go. My best chance is that I can swim to the RIB. Maybe the wind will blow it faster than I can swim but at least I'll have a chance.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We carry a lifesling 'knockoff' and the required full ring c/w heaving line/throwbag, both on the stern rail while underway (between trips we stow the 'lifesling' below to minimize UV damage to the bag).

Sorry to say we haven't practiced with either in years (did in the past with a transom-tunnel-stored COB pole attached to a ring) and happy to say have not yet needed to use them for real. Our first three rules are :

1. Stay on the boat
2. STAY ON THE BOAT
3.*STAY ON THE $%^#&@ BOAT!*

But of course stuff happens. We've retrieved dropped objects under sail, (once a floating handheld VHF in a single try) but the occasional hat might have been DOA by the time we actually grabbed it. In a real COB situation I think the sails would come down tout suite.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Lifesling and quick stop.

I dare the complainers to rely on their other half or inexperienced guests to come get them with a figure 8. It won't happen. They will sail away and lose sight of you in the waves.

The safest plan, when you have inexperienced guests, which you will, is to have them get the boat into the wind immediately, so as to stay close (they will lose you in the waves), take the sails down, and start the engine. The Lifesling will help them avoid getting too close.

And what is this fixation with "under sail?" Also silly. But after a quick stop, if sailing back seem practical, then do it. I've done real MOB drills, with real people, using both methods. My read is that unless they are experienced sailors, experienced on the specific boat, don't set your hopes too high.

---

IF you have a full crew, by all means sail back. Whatever. The Lifesling is there for when you don't have perfect crew. As for "one manufacture," that isn't their fault.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Our set up is to have a MOM outside the stern rail and the Lifesling inside (with the tether run over the rail and down to a cleat). 

The program is to pull the pin on the MOM immediately. It's the only chance of finding the victim, no matter what method is used. The lifesling, however, is a very good recovery tool and intuitive.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

eherlihy,

You're edit is correct. WM manufactures this product at the east coast rig shop, puts them into "Lifesling" boxes/bags, and then sells to whomever wants to buy them. Then gives X$ or % to the actual designer patent holder. 
Yes, that is why one can buy at defender, fisheries etc. 
IIRC, starbright is another product that WM either owns, or has a high % of ownership. That company also makes a lot of the WM products. Sea Dog is another manufacture that will make things for a given company and put in that companies wrapping. Or sells as it own brand in some places too. 

Marty


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

And it’s way overpriced!!!!
Wife bought a new cover/container for ours. Old one was dirty enough you couldn’t clean it. Cover costs more than cost of making the device and cover together from what I see. Pure price gouging by WM.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

outbound said:


> And it's way overpriced!!!!
> Wife bought a new cover/container for ours. Old one was dirty enough you couldn't clean it. Cover costs more than cost of making the device and cover together from what I see. Pure price gouging by WM.


* Shop somewhere else. But it's not much cheaper on Amazon so WM isn't really gouging for the convenience of a corner store.
* Sew your own cover.
* Recondition the cover. Paint works well, and you can sew anything that is worn.
* A little mildew stain doesn't affect function, so why does it matter? The cover is only for protection, thus so long as it is UV proof, it is by definition good. Sodt of like luggage; scuffs don't matter.

Marine stuff tends to be high because they don't sell Walmart volumes.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

In the real world things don't always go according to plan. If you approach the COB using the figure 8 or similar maneuver, and you deploy the Lifesling just before you make the turn to windward, then, if you miss the person, you have a second chance to retrieve him as you drag the line in the water past him.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

eherlihy said:


> They both believed that a Figure-8 maneuver (Shout, Throw, Spot, Beam Reach, Tack, Broad Reach, Cross Wake, Luff, and Approach the COB) would be preferred to the use of the LifeSling on a cruising boat (Hunter 356).


Just imagine you go overboard and your loved one tries to implement that maneuver.
You are dead.

Stop the boat.

Just stop the boat.

I will walk in water to get back in board so just stop the boat.

If I don't swim right up after you have Stopped the Boat then the person can get the engine on, let fly the sheets and head towards me.

I think times of ultimate stress the action must be so quick and be so intuitive. 
They teach this in the army. When the shooting starts you do a drill. A simple drill everyone has drilled into them to do each and every time no matter the circumstances. After that you do a considered plan.

So stop the boat. That's the drill.
Then an then next move whilst I swim up and tap on the hull. ☺

Mark


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Ps

What's COB?

I gave never heard this term before.

There is no COB button on my plotter.
There is no COB in my mind.

There's no time to waft the smoke of political correctness whilst you slowly drown.


Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

A variation on stopping the boat, is stopping the boat and throwing a throw bag, which is a device you can actually throw, even in less than ideal situations. 

I trust my wife to be able to throw a throw bag more than being able to do figure 8's or circles under sail. If she really wants to do figure 8's or circles, she can do them towing the throw bag behind her, but first, I'd be happy if she was just able to get the boat stopped throw something and get the engine started.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Another thing to consider is survival time in the water. I can think of quite a few where the sailor was recovered after about 30 minutes... dead. No signs of injury, just the effects of cold water. Winter is rapidly approaching, so this is something many of us need to think about.

I like a dry suit for deck wear when solo, bad weather, or working near the rail fishing of, in my case, gear testing. I know that I can fall in and remain quite comfortable for at least 6 hours (I spent 6 hours in ice water going through the USCG test protecole for immersion suits as part of a Goof Old Boat article once, just for fun. Got to read a book).

Not all the time. But if you have never jumped into really cold water (<40F) you may not understand how brutal it is. I have.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I cover hypothermia in ASA 103;

Here is the text from my ASA 103 course page 111;
*Survival Time - in benign conditions;*
70-80 degrees - Exhaustion in 3-12 hrs
60-70 degrees - Exhaustion in 2-7 hrs 
50-60 degrees - Exhaustion in 1-2 hrs
40-50 degrees - Exhaustion in ½-2 hrs
32-40 degrees - Exhaustion in ¼-½ hrs
<32 degrees - Exhaustion in <15 min​


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Mustang makes a nice suit where there are no integral boots or gloves. Unlike a Gumby survival suit you can actually work the boat with it on.
Dry suits are uncomfortable for me. Can wear one for a short dive or row but not for 4 plus hours. Also find them a PIA to get on/off when it’s bumpy.
For more money there are some really nice commercial exposure suits like the oil workers wear. Saving up for one of those. Had a version made by Imhoff now defunct I believe. Was the best thing ever.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I upgraded from the 2 piece Mustang Survival Thermosystem Plus working suit last season to a Gore Tex Ocean Rodeo Dry Suit and they are night and day.

The dry suit is so much more comfortable than the sweat lodge mustang suit. I can (and have) worn the ocean rodeo dry suit for 24 hours, no problem. The mobility is way better in the dry suit too. 

When working in extreme conditions, the mustang is warmer and tougher, but as soon as you are immersed in cold water, the dry suit offers better thermal protection.

I didn't do the float test like PDQ, but I have sailed my beach cat in snotty conditions with snow on the ground in both outfits, and I felt the mustang suit would keep me alive for long enough to self rescue, but I consider the Ocean Rodeo dry suit with pfd superior in almost every way.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Ps
> 
> What's COB?
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure you know what it means. Crew Overboard. It's the gender neutral alternative to "man overboard." In this millennial era I wouldn't want to offend any snowflakes. Happy holidays Mark! :laugh


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Sailormon6 said:


> I'm pretty sure you know what it means. Crew Overboard. It's the gender neutral alternative to "man overboard." In this millennial era I wouldn't want to offend any snowflakes. Happy holidays Mark! :laugh


No I didn't. I had to Google it.

That's the point.

If people are stupid about stuff folks die.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

COB is what corn comes on? ;-)

My typical gig is teaching Basic Keelboat ASA, on an outboard-powered 22-footer. So while the 101 book shows only the figure-8 and out and back patterns, I like to teach the RORC quick-stop anyway. 

Several reasons--if you have an overboard in rough weather, that outboard spends half its time out of the water, overspeeding and maybe overheating, and cavitating when it's in the water. So teaching recovery under sail only is a practical skill. Once we were presented with a real-time rescue of overboards who had bounced off a jetski, and in cold water too. They were upwind, it was blowing pretty stiff, so motor alone wouldn't do it, too slow and was jumping out of the water. So we tacked up to them, motorsailing on port tack only (with the starboard-bracket outboard in the water, not out), and we sailed on stbd tack. We got them. The students were excellent, and what a real-time lesson (we had just done the lifejacket Oscar drill a few minutes before one of them spotted a head in the water, and the empty jetski they would never catch up to).

And--any boathandling is good experience for the students. And boathandling doesn't always "register" as good, bad, or indifferent, unless there's some object floating nearby to recover, and "grade" yourself on. So I will try to get them to do it both ways. No lifesling on these boats, but while we practice heaving-to, I teach bowlines et al. Then we could do, or at least talk about, a DIY lifesling made from spare line with a bowline loop, trailing astern.

Figure eight gets us pretty far from "Oscar". Quick-stop doesn't.


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## JoCoSailor (Dec 7, 2015)

Maryland School of sailing has good video on MOB


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

For those that think dry suits are uncomfortable, I suggest trying the Ocean Rodeo at a boat show.
* If you look at the mini-video above, there is a stand-by mode where the neck is open. You still have the jacket. Great for sailors.
* Built-in suspenders makes then fit as well as any bibs.
* With the built-in socks I can wear any footwear.

If it is not raining or raining lightly, foul weather gear is more comfortable. If it is nasty, the dry suit is more comfortable. I also like that I can wear it with a neoprene beanie instead of a hood. No water down the neck, and no water up the sleeve.

So long as it is below ~ 55F it is all-day comfortable. Above that, not so much.

It fills a niche for me.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I actually bought my Ocean Rodeo based on a recommendation by PDQ on a thread I started last winter. It wasn't a blind leap of faith, I still looked at other models and asked my questions. It really is an incredibly comfortable unit, and amazing value, it was under $400 cdn, which is maybe $300 US. A good pair of foulies can cost more than that.


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## jtsailjt (Aug 1, 2013)

Sailormon6 said:


> I'm pretty sure you know what it means. Crew Overboard. It's the gender neutral alternative to "man overboard." In this millennial era I wouldn't want to offend any snowflakes. Happy holidays Mark! :laugh


 I had no idea what you meant by COB either. I guess you're trying to be inclusive, but what do you do when a passenger who is not part of your crew falls overboard? My plotter has a button that says MOB (no CrewOB or PassengerOB or WomanOB or TeenOB or SnowflakeOB or ...) and all the equipment is advertised as being for MOB recovery. I suspect that even the most delicate snowflake will be more than happy to be considered to be a MOB when it's their turn to view the stern of your boat from about an inch above sea level.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I'm with NolaTom. COB is the inedible part of the corn, that you make a pipe out of. Just like Doug McArthur liked.

MAN overboard has always been used as gender neutral, for all five genders. The English word "man" comes from old languages where the word is actually "humankind" which got progressively shortened to (hu)mankind to (hu)man(kind).

If I ever have to go back and fetch a woman, or a hermaphrodite (there are 3 kinds) or a tranny out of the water, and they slap my face for saying "MAN OVERBOARD!" I'll slap 'em right back. Then I'll pinch their ass and I'll resign from the Senate. (ahem.)

No, really....Who gives a flying who makes the lifesling? The fact remains that it is a fairly COMMON piece of safety equipment. It serves a good purpose. You'd have to be a fool to teach people how to sail, intentionally without teaching them how to use pretty much ALL of the common safety equipment they may have available to them on various boats.

We keep a four-part block and snatch hook, wrapped with a couple of rubber bands that can burst apart (so they don't have to be cut or untied) so anyone can grab the block, snap it onto the boom, swing it out and haul someone UP to swing them in. Yeah, sure, you have to secure the MOB to the line, or if they've caught a line, tie that on. But if you know how it works, it is so much more likely that you can rig or improvise something equally effective if you find yourself needing to get a MOB aboard.

The same could be said of all the MOB recovery techniques, if a course omitted any of them, I'd call it a "resort course".


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

jtsailjt said:


> SnowflakeOB


:smile

:grin

:grin :grin :grin

**** me that's funny.

:grin


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I did need to call HAT OVERBOARD! one day and since it was my good hat, we did scramble to get it. The nice folks already coming the other way indicated they'd make a grab for it...and promptly RAN DOWN the hat and left bottom paint on it.

Memo, *fire*upon* any vessel offering to aid in your close-quarters MOB activities.

"Rule Number One: STAY ON THE BOAT."
"Rule Number Two: Walking on water is not allowed, it tends to start religions."


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## wrwakefield (Nov 18, 2015)

Lifesling type devices are proven to work without much practice or training. They are also relatively cheap. There is no reason not to teach such use [other than personal bias] along with the other 'standard' methods of POB recovery...

In reflection, I would counsel someone just starting out to think twice before accepting instruction from individuals so subjective as to exclude such a common potential lifesaving device. I would also wonder what else they are choosing to exclude from my training due to their loss of objectivity... Seek training elsewhere...

We will always have a Lifesling type of device installed on our boat [that along with AIS/VHF DSC transmitters on every PFD, 1- MOM, etc., etc.] Non-boating guests always seem to understand how it works- whether they envision deploying it from the boat or grabbing it while in the water...

Cheers! Bill


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

JoCoSailor said:


> Maryland School of sailing has good video on MOB
> 
> Crew Overboard Rescue Techniques - YouTube


I have seen that video before. At about 48 minutes in, Tom states that you can just haul the person out of the water using a halyard on a winch. I call BS! There is NO way that anyone, other than the Hulk, is going to drag my 190lb butt and my wet clothing from in the water over the lifelines to get me back aboard - even with a winch!!

I have a pre-rigged 4:1 block and tackle stored at the bottom of my LifeSling bag specifically for this purpose. Others could use a non-rigid boom vang (if the line on the vang is long enough). The rescue crew would lower the halyard, attach the block and tackle to it, then raise the halyard so that it is about 10 feet off the deck. Then they should attach the block and tackle to the person being rescued, and run the line from the block and tackle to a convenient winch. It is far more complex than the Maryland School of Sailing video would have you think.

All of this is part of my reasoning that the LifeSling and the elevator recovery method should be taught as part of a sailing curriculum.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

wrwakefield said:


> Lifesling type devices are proven to work without much practice or training. They are also relatively cheap. There is no reason not to teach such use [other than personal bias] along with the other 'standard' methods of POB recovery...
> 
> In reflection, I would counsel someone just starting out to think twice before accepting instruction from individuals so subjective as to exclude such a common potential lifesaving device. I would also wonder what else they are choosing to exclude from my training due to their loss of objectivity... Seek training elsewhere...
> 
> ...


Here here.Total agree.

All this prattle taking the original intent of the post on a off topic route. It had nothing to do with techniques and figure 8s. While a separate and good topic the true posts intent was lost in the drift.

Any device promoting safety is worth the teaching . There is really no negative . For what it's worth my wife and I practice once a yeAr with our life sling. Probably the easiest way for her to winch my potential dead weight overcoming the freeboard night to get be or assist me back on board.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> I have seen that video before. At about 48 minutes in, Tom states that you can just haul the person out of the water using a halyard on a winch. I call BS! There is NO way that anyone, other than the Hulk, is going to drag my 190lb butt and my wet clothing from in the water over the lifelines to get me back aboard - even with a winch!!
> 
> I have a pre-rigged 4:1 block and tackle stored at the bottom of my LifeSling bag specifically for this purpose. Others could use a non-rigid boom vang (if the line on the vang is long enough). The rescue crew would lower the halyard, attach the block and tackle to it, then raise the halyard so that it is about 10 feet off the deck. Then they should attach the block and tackle to the person being rescued, and run the line from the block and tackle to a convenient winch. It is far more complex than the Maryland School of Sailing video would have you think.
> 
> All of this is part of my reasoning that the LifeSling and the elevator recovery method should be taught as part of a sailing curriculum.


We have found that running that setting the boom on the posited side of the boat and running the life sling line under our loose footed sail and over the boom allows enough height for my wife to pull me up over the lifelines.

Another technique we have employed is to run the life sling line through the snap shackle on the end of the spinnaker halyard and raising the snap shackle above the boom, the using a winch to take in the life sling line. Yes there's a lot of friction, but it works.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> We have found that running that setting the boom on the posited side of the boat and running the life sling line under our loose footed sail and over the boom allows enough height for my wife to pull me up over the lifelines.
> 
> Another technique we have employed is to run the life sling line through the snap shackle on the end of the spinnaker halyard and raising the snap shackle above the boom, the using a winch to take in the life sling line. Yes there's a lot of friction, but it works.


Are you saying that your wife has sufficient upper body strength to hoist you up with a spinnaker halyard run to a winch without using a block & tackle? WOW! She's stronger than me!:smile


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> Are you saying that your wife has sufficient upper body strength to hoist you up with a spinnaker halyard run to a winch without using a block & tackle? WOW! She's stronger than me!:smile


We practice this every year. Our Barient 27 two speed has the life sling line in it self tailed. The line runs through the spinaccker halyard shackle which is elevated. Yes she can hoist me up albet not easily, but she can do it.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I am so lost. So you guys do drills where one partner is incapacitated, and the other picks their partner up. If the person in the water is incapacitated, how the heck does the boat driver sling them without getting into the water. If the person in the water is mobile, why aren't they scrambling up the ladder. 

I get it, you are tired and cold after 5 minutes in the water, but why not just grab the pfd or belt and haul to give them a boost. I am having trouble picturing how one incapacitated person gets into a sling so the person driving the boat can haul them up.

Is this covered in ASA.

Edit: I am picturing myself on the edge of consciousness. 210 pounds. I cant help myself. My 140 pound wife is supposed to be able to haul my unconscious butt out of the water using one of these life slings. Alone. Single handed. While she watches the baby and drives the boat. I don't get it.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Arcb said:


> I am so lost. So you guys do drills where one partner is incapacitated, and the other picks their partner up. If the person in the water is incapacitated, how the heck does the boat driver sling them without getting into the water. If the person in the water is mobile, why aren't they scrambling up the ladder.


Yes, you have finally bumped into the truth that most avoid.
No matter what rescue systems are on board anyone that goes MOB in a short handed boat is D E D.

Really only a fully trained race boat crew of 4 or more are going to have a chance.

Even if fully fit and able MOB and I am at the helm I don't see how someone can get to a heaving stern in a seaway and grab hold and climb the swim ladder after 20 minutes in the water terrified and swimming like hell.

I have an extra long main halyard so I can chuck it over the davits and it goes into the water where the mob can clip or the on. Then I can assist with the winch pulling him vertically up the ladder. But I can't winch and steer!
In any sea or any wind the boat ain't gonna be still and that smashing swim platform is death.

If the conditions were benign the goose wouldn't have fallen over.

Moral of my point is Don't go overboard!


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

When I bought my boat it came with a lifesling on the pushpit. As a singlehander, it was rather superfluous, so I took it off to get it out of the sun. Somehow, it just never got put back out after I found a crew (now my wife). I think they are a great safety tool *if* one is trained in how to use it *and* in the right circumstances. If the person in the water is conscious, then the life sling can be of great value. If not, and there is no easy access to the person in the water, then things get much more difficult and the chances of a good outcome dramatically decrease, also vastly increasing the possibility that the person aboard could end up in the water with the other.
They used to make a metal hook for grabbing an anchor when it needed to be pulled aboard with a davit or halyard. Once snapped on the anchor shackle, the handle would release and could be brought aboard separately, leaving the anchor hooked to the halyard or davit . Lifesling needs in incorporate something similar in their package for use with unconscious persons in the water.
Of course, absolutely the very best and safest course of action to save lives on boats is to *not* go over the side in the first place. It's not like most of those who fall overboard do so in a flat calm, on a pleasant day, is it? I tell those sailing with us to consider the rail a 900 foot cliff with exactly the same danger factor as falling overboard. I also tell them to make note of the closest land as they go overboard, and swim for it, because it is unlikely we will find them and be able to rescue them, in time.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

I voted "No". I think that the "NEW" sailors have far more important things to learn in the ASA 101, 102, 103 series..Line handling skills especially...A newbie getting back to to the MOB? When pigs fly! 

Yes, introduce the concept, build the skills, let's not sugar coat the skills needed to retrieve a MOB...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

capta said:


> When I bought my boat it came with a lifesling on the pushpit. As a singlehander, it was rather superfluous, so I took it off to get it out of the sun. Somehow, it just never got put back out after I found a crew (now my wife). I think they are a great safety tool *if* one is trained in how to use it *and* in the right circumstances. If the person in the water is conscious, then the life sling can be of great value. If not, and there is no easy access to the person in the water, then things get much more difficult and the chances of a good outcome dramatically decrease, also vastly increasing the possibility that the person aboard could end up in the water with the other.
> They used to make a metal hook for grabbing an anchor when it needed to be pulled aboard with a davit or halyard. Once snapped on the anchor shackle, the handle would release and could be brought aboard separately, leaving the anchor hooked to the halyard or davit . Lifesling needs in incorporate something similar in their package for use with unconscious persons in the water.
> Of course, absolutely the very best and safest course of action to save lives on boats is to *not* go over the side in the first place. It's not like most of those who fall overboard do so in a flat calm, on a pleasant day, is it? I tell those sailing with us to consider the rail a 900 foot cliff with exactly the same danger factor as falling overboard. I also tell them to make note of the closest land as they go overboard, and swim for it, because it is unlikely we will find them and be able to rescue them, in time.


Well put.

Only for a conscious person to grab it and put it under their armpits. Or someone else in the water to help.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Arcb said:


> I am so lost. So you guys do drills where one partner is incapacitated, and the other picks their partner up. If the person in the water is incapacitated, how the heck does the boat driver sling them without getting into the water. If the person in the water is mobile, why aren't they scrambling up the ladder.
> 
> I get it, you are tired and cold after 5 minutes in the water, but why not just grab the pfd or belt and haul to give them a boost. I am having trouble picturing how one incapacitated person gets into a sling so the person driving the boat can haul them up.
> 
> ...


Of course in your scenario I d Dvise your wife to call your insurance agent.

What we practice is getting someone on board who is conscious but just can't get back on due to the freeboard or the boat pitching where they can climb the step.

It is but one choice in a MOB situation.

BTW learning to handle this situation is not mutually exclusive on learning line handling. The more situations you learn to handle the more choices you have the better you can become.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

^Something the guys with a few miles under our keels forget, is the time on the water we've spent..and how the simplest tasks for for us would be overwhelming for the the newbs..yes, practice, practice, practice..and the warning i give everybody is that if you fall off this boat you have a good chance of dying...so stay on the boat..


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

But these training drills. Were they done in conditions where a swim ladder could not have been used?

I asked earlier in the thread if any one had ever used one of these devices in anger, or just during training in benign conditions. Nobody answered.

Im sure most of us have had to deal with a couple of man over boards, especially you folks with a few miles under your keel. So when no one answers a question like that, it makes me wonder why. 

I am guessing if its too rough to use the swim ladder, and the boat is lying beam to the seas, rigging and using one of these things is probably not that easy for a recreational sailor alone on deck. How long does it take to rig one, when the boat is rolling rail to rail, and whats the person in the water doing while this happens. Obviously the person has a dry suit and pfd on, right?


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Arcb said:


> But these training drills. Were they done in conditions where a swim ladder could not have been used?
> 
> I asked earlier in the thread if any one had ever used one of these devices in anger, or just during training in benign conditions. Nobody answered.
> 
> ...


I think the point is being lost that the lifesling offers some floatation and a way to keep the person attached to the boat without that person trying to hold onto a line or tie a knot or whatever.

IF one can get the person into that gizmo they have more time. IF they can get that lifesling line onto a winch or over the boom or whatever, they now have a way to attempt to drag that person over the side.

Get the sling to them, hopefully they can get it on themselves, drag them to the boat. At least the person remaining on the boat has a minute or two to get things together. It's not a cure all.

Who gives a ****e what you call it? I don't know what is worse, the politically correct crowd or the crowd that spends all their time debating them. Or me debating the crowd that debates them. :kiss


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Arcb said:


> I asked earlier in the thread if any one had ever used one of these devices in anger, or just during training in benign conditions. Nobody answered.


Certainly not me.

I haven't even been able to successfully rescue a blown off hat for 20 years.

And I refuse to practise with a $70 fender because it costs me $70 every bloody time.

And that's a fender not some lard-ass with a broken leg, arm, concussion etc.

Oh and if you go swimming and I do manage to find you I will never ever ever put someone else in the water to assist you. That would be murdering someone who was safe. Never never never.

There was one thing that was invented that was like a long canvas sheet strapped to the side of the boat. When it's deployed it has sticks that hold it open so it's like a big whales mouth. The idea is you drive the boat toward the mob and scoop the body into it. Then (before it drowns) u tie the outside side to a halyard and pull it up so the body rolls onto the deck.

I will try to find a link
Found it.
Scroll down for sensible photos.

http://marine.the-justgroup.com/man-overboard-recovery-sea-scoopa/


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Bet not many cheap sailors are going to buy that

Sounds like once lardass goes over the side they are dead, which is kind of what I’ve always assumed


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

RobGallagher said:


> Who gives a ****e what you call it? I don't know what is worse, the politically correct crowd or the crowd that spends all their time debating them. Or me debating the crowd that debates them. :kiss


Sorry, Rob, but that's baloney.

Nautical terminology is set for 1 reason: so everyone makes no mistake.

I know I say kitchen instead of galley and bedroom instead of cabin but on deck it's Port and starboard correct.

I had to do a rescue off Grenada (CaptA may remember this one) where the woman at the helm didn't know port and starboard. I had to say left and right. But she never said " I don't know my port and starboard she just ignored me until I said a word she could understand.

So if u yell to a crew member "Push the COB" button there better be a bloody COB button!!

Get it?

☺


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

On the Lifesling, although my prior boats have all been equipped with a Lifesling, I have not purchased one for my current boat and do not plan to. I think the issue is to clarify what you think the value of the Lifesling is, frankly to me its usefulness is as ONLY a tool for hoisting a person out of the water. 

As to deploying the Lifesling during a MOB maneuvering procedure, I much prefer a recovery strategy that focuses on quickly returning the boat to the MOB, rather than the MOB to the boat. 

The use of the Lifesling and the quick stop go hand-in-hand. If I sailed with a full race crew in generally colder waters, then I think the Lifesling/quick stop is defendable as the solution that can be used in ANY circumstance, given all experienced and trained sailors, and that the the full crew practices the procedure a dozen or so times a year, while rotating who is calling the shots. 

Correctly performing a "quick stop" MOB maneuver, to include a circle or two around the MOB, is extremely difficult to do, who thinks there a chance in heck that their SO could do so? Mine could not, frankly I need to try three or four attempts, each starting over, before I can complete it. It is a very, very difficult maneuver. If that is someone's plan with a SO as crew, that may be just wishful thinking.

To deploy the Lifesling while performing any other MOB maneuver such as the Figure 8, so it simply trails you about, seems to me to be just adding useless confusion to the already boiling pot. If you want to introduce the Lifesling as the means to hoist a un-responsive MOB out of the water, well that is a good use for the strap. You can dump the stern case and all the line though, hanging the strap in a cockpit locker where it can be reached after the boat has returned to the MOB and you find he (me most likely...) can't get up the stern ladder. 

So having participated in the same conversations as the OP, I personally agree with the other captains involved, for the circumstances of ASA instruction, and for my personal boating.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Arcb said:


> Im sure most of us have had to deal with a couple of man over boards, especially you folks with a few miles under your keel. So when no one answers a question like that, it makes me wonder why.


God, I sincerely hope you are way, way, way wrong in that assumption! Over 5 decades on the water almost constantly, both for pleasure and professionally, and I have never had a MOB event in earnest, from one of the vessels I've been on as crew or as operator.
Operating USCG certified (COI) vessels a MOB drill was mandatory every year to maintain certification, but that is a vessel crewed with professionals and carrying a goodly number of non-boating passengers, usually operated in a harbor, river or estuary. Even at 49 passengers three times a day or more (max possible numbers for a 49 pass vessel), 7 days a week, 7 or 8 months a year, I've still never had one single person go overboard.
A boarding ladder is of little help with an injured or unconscious MOB if there is only one other person aboard. It would be a superhuman feat to get a lifesling onto an unhelpful injured or unconscious person in the water, while hanging onto a boarding ladder, in any but the most benign conditions. More than likely this attempt would result in two MOB's and two deaths.
I can't stress enough that this is a position one *never* wants to allow oneself to be in. *PREVENTION*, in this case, is the *only* way to insure the safety of those aboard your vessel.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

RobGallagher said:


> I think the point is being lost that the lifesling offers some floatation and a way to keep the person attached to the boat without that person trying to hold onto a line or tie a knot or whatever.
> 
> IF one can get the person into that gizmo they have more time. IF they can get that lifesling line onto a winch or over the boom or whatever, they now have a way to attempt to drag that person over the side.
> 
> ...


All the above ??

Rob is right. I tire of the haughty positions some of the "cruisers" take on here sometimes, like their knowledge is somehow greater overall because they sail the great oceans. Everyone else becomes a "newbie" . Their knowledge definitely applies to the great oceans but sometimes their outlook is only on the theater that they sail in. I have great respect for their knowledge in that specific area. I have only sailed across the Atlantic twice and To the Carribean a few times and most of my experience lies in coastal cruising and even weekending.

Many coastal and even seasonal sailors have and do more sailing nautical miles per year overall and face different situations.

I doubt many on here will have to worry about sailing in huge seas 50 knot winds. Most posters on here are not in that category. Also Many here encounter more inexperienced sailors I would venture to bet. On any given weekend in the Chesapeake there are many many boaters out. These sailors probably would have more chance to use a life sling than a " cruiser" in the open ocean. And probably even to assist another person.

Keep in mind that many who sail around other boats all the time such as the Chesapeake or the LI Sound May happen on a situation where they respond to another boats situation or incident where tossing a life sling as well as a horseshoe would be appropriate. As a first way to stabilize the incident. As Rob said with the life sling you have them tied to the boat as well as a flotation device, and a way also to retrieve them if necessary. Teaching the technique which the majority will see makes sense . Adding it to all they learn can only help and certainly will never hurt.

First rule is to stabilize the situation. The reason we practice every year is to renew the steps in our mind we would take if we choose that method so we at least would have ironed out the "kinks".

I am reminded of an incident which sticks in my mind where a Sailing Sailnetter ( T37 chef) happened on a scene as the first responder where a small power boat was distressed and there were quieter a few people in the water. He heroically rescued a number of them. Doubt he used a life sling, but what he happened upon is more what the MAJORITY of us would face.

Just a note, On Haleakula the dinghy on davits blocks our ladder.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Hard to read all the posts, but my opinion is the lifesling gives at least an chance of rescue if MOB is not able to climb on their own. Sure you can rig a lift after any floating device is successful but why not have both at the same time. Comments like dragging up the sugar scoop is great if you have one. The OP mentions an instructing group hesitating to recommend a device because of fear of endorsing a commercial product is just well, irresponsible.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

capta said:


> God, I sincerely hope you are way, way, way wrong in that assumption! Over 5 decades on the water almost constantly, both for pleasure and professionally, and I have never had a MOB event in earnest, from one of the vessels I've been on as crew or as operator.


Ya, maybe I am making wrong assumptions. I thought maybe minor incidents, like a quick dunk during a small boat race or some thing. Maybe not so much.

When I was in between jobs I drove booze cruise boats for about 4 years, big ones, up to 700 passengers. We definitely encountered the occasional jumper. Talk about a job where the reward doesn't match the risk. I always got all of mine back, but it doesn't really translate to this scenario, because I had large professional crews and the bridge was well above the water making visibility easy. We carried rescue boats, but I found, get the boat stopped, get the boat spun around, drive the boat to within 10-15 feet of the person, chuck a life ring, then have a couple of deck apes reach down, grab them by what ever and drag them on board worked, as did swim ladders. But again, this isn't a directly relate to a MOB on a short handed sailing yacht. I am not sure what the best way is.



MarkofSeaLife said:


> Oh and if you go swimming and I do manage to find you I will never ever ever put someone else in the water to assist you. That would be murdering someone who was safe. Never never never.
> 
> There was one thing that was invented that was like a long canvas sheet strapped to the side of the boat. When it's deployed it has sticks that hold it open so it's like a big whales mouth. The idea is you drive the boat toward the mob and scoop the body into it. Then (before it drowns) u tie the outside side to a halyard and pull it up so the body rolls onto the deck.


Definitely, 2 people in the water is double the trouble.

The thing you describe reminds me of a device I have seen some of the pro SAR guys practice with called a Jasons Cradle. Expensive and takes up a lot of space, but its SOLAS approved. I guess part of the theory is, by recovering the person in a horizontal position, it reduces the risk of head and spinal injuries and reduces the risk of after shock when cold blood from the extremities reaches the heart and stops it.

Some times you see a jury rigged variation which just uses nylon webbing, one is placed under the arm pits, the other above the knees, and the rescuer hauls them up with 2 to one purchase. They call it parbuckling. You could leave them rigged full time at your toe rails for expedience.

However, I think both of these options would be tricky on a short handed sailing yacht.

MOB System, Scramble Net, Rescue Stretcher, Jason's Cradle, man overboard

Bigger boats, like the navy etc. of course use scramble nets.

To be clear though, I don't have anything against rescue slings, because I have never used one, or seen one used. Maybe if the OP is going to teach them in his course, he could discuss some of the alternatives, like Jasons Cradle, parbuckling and discuss some of the hazards that might be relevant, like risk of head and spinal injury, and the risk of rough handling of a hypothermia victim. Just some thoughts, maybe those items are already included, I haven't done the course.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

With more than 60 years on the water, mostly in small to mid size boats, I never had a man overboard from any boat I operated. That said, I have a life sling on the stern, it's ready to go in a heartbeat, and I would immediately fire up the engine, sheet out the sails and make the rescue using the engine. 

That said, the main reason I have never even tested my life sling is that I have been a solo sailor for the past 8 years. Real hard to use it if I were the person that ended up on the drink.

Merry Christmas, everyone,

Gary


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Arcb said:


> Ya, maybe I am making wrong assumptions. I thought maybe minor incidents, like a quick dunk during a small boat race or some thing. Maybe not so much.


I have never had anyone close to going over.

The 2 girls I took from the Caribbean to the Azores would diligently clip on before going forward (screaming) to photograph each whale and dolphin.

Crew do take it seriously.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Here is an article on a description of Circum Rescue Collapse, apologise for the cut and paste, but they describe it better than I could ever hope to. Here is the full article for the source material.

Prehospital treatment of hypothermia

*CIRCUM-RESCUE COLLAPSE
There are many clinical examples of victims being rescued from cold stress (usually from cold water immersion) in an apparently stable and conscious condition, only to experience a rewarming shock or postrescue collapse, with symptoms ranging from syncope to ventricular fibrillation and cardiac arrest. Golden et al18 have noted that deaths can occur shortly before, during, or after rescue and have used the term circum-rescue collapse. Deaths have been described just before, during, or soon after rescue, as well as up to 24 hours after rescue.18-21
Golden et al18 propose that removal from cold water results in a precipitous fall in blood pressure, inadequate coronary blood flow, and myocardial ischemia that possibly precipitates ventricular fibrillation. These authors demonstrated decreases in aortic blood pressure and central venous pressure during vertical lifting by helicopter strop from cold water. This has led to a widespread practice of using a double sling (under the arms and knees), which can raise a victim in a more horizontal position.
The importance of further cooling of the heart cannot be discounted. Fibrillation of a cold heart can be initiated by mechanical stimuli,22 hypoxia and acidosis,23 and rapid changes in pH.24 A recent review25 presents data from several sources documenting afterdrop values of up to 5°C. Regardless of the etiology, it is important to note that in severely hypothermic patients, there is a significant risk of further deterioration. A summary of 21 cases of severe hypothermia indicated 4 with viable cardiac function upon rescue, with subsequent deterioration to ventricular fibrillation or asystole.25*


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Arcb said:


> Here is an article on a description of Circum Rescue Collapse, apologise for the cut and paste, but they describe it better than I could ever hope to. Here is the full article for the source material.
> 
> Prehospital treatment of hypothermia
> 
> ...


We get it....go into cold water...you die.
What's that got to do with teaching or using a life sling.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

No chef, that wasnt my point at all. The goal is to keep them alive.

And it has a lot to do with it. That article was from a pre hospital emergencgy care manual that explains how to keep hypothermia victims alive. There are recomended practices for retreiving a person from cold water immersion. Do it quickly, keep them as near to horizontal as practicable, and avoid jostling them. I thought they are ideas E might want to include when hes giving his lesson (again, maybe he already does, like i said, i have never taken this course, nor have i received training with a life sling).

Or, if not, maybe the details will give tthe casual reader some points to consider when selecting a MOB retreival device.

I think that was the whole point of this thread wasnt it? To discuss the pros and cons of training with a specific device. I think Es colleagues were concerned that focusing too heavily on one retreival device vrs another might give new sailors tunnel vision by suggesting one particular device.

Maybe a serious offshore sailor might want to include something like a scoopa in his inventory in addition to this device, because it allows for rapid, low impact, horizontal revovery.

Doesnt matter to me, i have no plans on taking an ASA/Cansail course, or buying one of these devices, just sharing information.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Wow - I feel like I started an anchoring thread!

I only wanted to know if y'all thought it pertinent as part of ASA 104 to be instructed in the use of the Life Sling. I often find that sailors feel that their way of doing things is the best way, and anyone that does not do things their way is making a grave mistake. For some reason, what appear to be benign topics quickly turn into religious battles. I've had sailors criticise my primary anchor (Chinese Rocna), anchor rode (nylon and chain), chart plotter orientation (north up), where I position the boat to recover COB / MOB (windward), and a bunch of other things (crimp vs solder for splicing wire).

I was taken aback that instruction on the use of the Life Sling would be treated with such derision from someone who commands a lot of respect in the local sailing community.

I also note that there is a lot of misunderstanding/misinformation in this thread, so I will attempt to clarify a couple of points;

Line handling and docking should have been covered in ASA 103, so it is not a decision to teach how to use a Life Sling (LS) versus how to use docklines. There is also an ASA course in advanced docking(118), should someone feel the need to address docking specifically.
The LS is NOT meant to be thrown to the person in the water. It is meant to be towed to, or near, the person in the water. The polypropylene tow line floats so that the person in the water can grab it. There should be a nylon UV cover for last ten feet of the polypropylene line. Personally, I store my LS and the Ensign when I am not aboard my boat near the battery switch. This reminds me to mount them on the rail when I come aboard.
The LS alone is NOT useful if the person in the water is unconscious. Someone else will have to go swimming, or you are effectively writing the person in the water off...
The Life Sling was NOT primarily designed as a tool to hoist someone out of the water. It is classified as a Type V PFD which substitutes for a Type IV (throwable). The LS can be used as a lifting sling, but that is a secondary benefit.
Refresher:Life Jacket Types


> A Type IV is designed to be thrown to an overboard victim or to supplement the buoyancy of a person overboard. It is not to be worn. Minimum buoyancy: 16.5 lbs. for ring buoy or 18 lbs. for boat cushion. ...
> NOTE - Type IV devices must be IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE for use. You must have one at arm's length to throw over the side in an emergency. Having one in a locker under the driver's seat isn't considered "immediately available."


So you guys that have stored them in your locker may as well leave them at home or sell them.
I DO NOT advocate, suggest or teach the use the Life Sling without the use of a motor. In the first page of this thread, I stated that I have taught my wife to furl the headsail and either sheet in or blow the main, AND START THE MOTOR. 
In my experience, many newbie sailors have trouble executing _*any *_of the MOB maneuvers that we teach under sail. I don't care if it is Figure-8 (which has shortcomings), Quickstop, BRCR, Anderson turn, Williamson turn, these are all more complicated under sail than under power, and I am not willing to gamble that with someone in the water that a new sailor is going to be able to execute them. Again I say START THE MOTOR.
ASA 104 is also known as Basic Coastal Cruising, and there are test questions (in the current test) about the use of the motor (although there are none on the LS), so use of the motor to get back to a person in the water is OK. 

Here is the manual that accompanies the Life Sling, and I suggest that some of you may want to read it; https://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/landfallnav/Lifesling3Manual.pdf

The current survey results (29:3) speak for themselves, so I will continue to teach the use of the Life Sling.

Over time I have learned that for many things there is an advantage and a reason for each preference and that it is best if you can appreciate the advantages of both sides of each argument... Knowledge is good!


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Sorry, Rob, but that's baloney.
> 
> Nautical terminology is set for 1 reason: so everyone makes no mistake.
> 
> ...


Oh I get it. We just start saying left and right. Easy. 

The newer chart plotters I've looked at don't have MOB buttons. They don't have buttons. So as you direct "MOB Button" over the radio they are staring at a touch screen that does not have that option.

I get it, I still call it MOB, but language evolves faster than we do.

My mother uses her iPad and iPhone all the time. Why do I still get a blank stare when I direct her to hit the home button?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Maybe the drision from your colleagues comes from the amount of misinformation out there?

It's clear to me from reading some of the posts, there is some belief out there that this device is the best and in some cases the only slinging device. I watched the training video, and read the marketing material, and it doesn't seem like their is a lot of information getting out there about the hazards of a vertical lift with a single sling across the middle of the back. Better than nothing, but there are plenty of products out their designed specifically for reboarding. 

If you look at ASA's biggest competitor, the RYA, there is no mention on their website of this device for lifting. They focus on parbuckling and other horizontal lifting systems, for well documented and medically understood reasons. 

Still though, I agree, you've got to get a line to the person, we all have our favourite methods, I see nothing wrong with teaching your favourite methods, as I would teach mine (throw bag).


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Arcb said:


> Maybe the drision from your colleagues comes from the amount of misinformation out there?


And I have taken it upon myself to try and address the misinformation... which is kind of the point in being an instructor.

[EDIT] Note that I am NOT proposing that the Life Sling or any ONE technique or device is BEST in all circumstances. This is one of the things that I love about sailing; there is no ONE BEST anything! A good sailor knows the advantages and disadvantages of several alternatives and is able to make an informed decision based on the situation that he/she finds themselves in.



> Still though, I agree, you've got to get a line to the person, we all have our favourite methods, I see nothing wrong with teaching your favourite methods, as I would teach mine (throw bag).


Interesting that we have the throw bag onboard when I teach US/Sailing courses, which are far more consistent from instructor to instructor (we have to use a PowerPoint presentation) BUT PROVIDE NO INSTRUCTION on its use. Frequently, some of the instructors don't even mount the bag to the rail during class.

As far as I can recall, we don't have a throw bag aboard when I teach ASA 101. I don't believe that it is mentioned in the ASA 101 course book, I could be wrong about this, but I don't have the book or the boat handy to check.


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## Damon Gannon (Mar 3, 2017)

First off, the Quick Stop is a better maneuver than the figure 8. With the figure 8, you get too far away from the victim and with all of the maneuvering, it is too easy to lose sight of the victim. But in reality, few recreational sailors can effectively execute either the figure 8 or the quick stop. These maneuvers take a lot of practice; few people invest the time needed to master the necessary skills. Sailing or motoring in a circle, on the other hand, is far simpler. Therefore, the life sling, or any buoy on a painter, is probably the easiest way to make contact with a victim that has fallen overboard (with the caveat being that the victim has to be conscious and able to grab onto the line or buoy). 

Regardless of how you re-establish contact with the victim, your're not out of the woods yet. Getting them back aboard can be difficult. A sling can make it easier, but if you've ever practiced being hauled up in a sling or in a harness that doesn't have leg straps, you know that it would be easy to injure a victim while hauling them aboard in an emergency. If your boat doesn't have a sugarscoop stern and the victim can't climb up a boarding ladder, you can lower a sail into the water (while keeping the foot of the sail tightly secured to the boat) and have the victim climb into the "fold" of sail that is created. You then raise the halyard to roll the victim aboard. On my boat, I'd probably use my staysail because it is hanked-on, making it easier to release its luff than it would be to release the luff of either the main or genoa (roller furled). I'd lower the sail, release several hanks (keeping the tack and head of the sail still connected) and push the belly of the sail into the water, forming a loop. Then proceed as described above.

None of these operations is easy, which is why it is so important to think about what you'd do in the event that the unthinkable was to happen. Practice these maneuvers and see how difficult they are. If nothing else, it will be a good reminder to stay aboard your boat.


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## BillFalls44 (Dec 11, 2017)

I enjoy them, though its not for everybody


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

We have a Lifesling that replaced a horshoe buoy that had a lousy tether. Pretty much the same concept.

However, if we ever had to use one in earnest, the probability of a successful recovery for a senior couple is not that high. That said, it is better than zero, so we keep the Lifesling and hope we never have to use it. 

At least we might be able to get a line to the MOB while we figure out how to get him/her onboard. We’ve discussed our options for winching the MOB and we carry a Winchrite that would compensate for the admiral’s lower strength. Still, there would be lost minutes rigging a hoist and positioning and securing the MOB for a hoist. Wouldn’t count on the MOB climbing out on his or her own.


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## SailingKnottyGurl (Dec 12, 2017)

first thing to do is mark the area on plotter if possible and tossing over a few red and yellow floaty cushions, the MOB pole with ring, then drop sails and fire up engine, depending on wave size a figure 8 might be harder then you think (risking boat and remaining crew) trying to keep your eyes on COB is already uber hard on a semi nice day, but full blown storm, limited viz and its gonna take every once of composure to get turned and close to COB. the life sling does offer an advantage that once close enough a disconnect from main sheeting and COB can be hoisted up using boom as fulcrum point. Im 210 lbs dry my wife is 100 lbs wet so no way in hell is she gonna get me out. I jump in and have the wife practice picking me up on calm days and 1-3 foot chop (lake Ontario) with a nice breeze, she gets pissed everytime i do it but this summer past she actually got to me and didnt run me over. Man over board is the scarriest training a couple can do.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SailingKnottyGurl said:


> first thing to do is mark the area on plotter if possible and tossing over a few red and yellow floaty cushions, the MOB pole with ring, then drop sails and fire up engine, depending on wave size a figure 8 might be harder then you think (risking boat and remaining crew) trying to keep your eyes on COB is already uber hard on a semi nice day, but full blown storm, limited viz and its gonna take every once of composure to get turned and close to COB. the life sling does offer an advantage that once close enough a disconnect from main sheeting and COB can be hoisted up using boom as fulcrum point. Im 210 lbs dry my wife is 100 lbs wet so no way in hell is she gonna get me out. I jump in and have the wife practice picking me up on calm days and 1-3 foot chop (lake Ontario) with a nice breeze, she gets pissed everytime i do it but this summer past she actually got to me and didnt run me over. Man over board is the scarriest training a couple can do.


Totally agree👍😄🌪. Is what we practice also. Good practice should you also happen on as a rescue boat. 
Having my wife practice maneuvering around and object with the purpose of rescuing or aid in one helps her in close quarter handling out in the open also.


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## SailingKnottyGurl (Dec 12, 2017)

chef2sail said:


> Totally agree👍😄🌪. Is what we practice also. Good practice should you also happen on as a rescue boat.
> Having my wife practice maneuvering around and object with the purpose of rescuing or aid in one helps her in close quarter handling out in the open also.


Agreed and she drives most times to mooring and anchoring, this year shes learning reverse:eek
Great idea on being a rescue boat practice will implement that this summer:smile


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