# Scary situation for both sides



## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

This is a redirect from Rikhal's post. I was already going to post this, then saw he had come up with it. I am moving his post to here because I want to make sure that when googles, it will pop up appropriatly. Please excuse my as I merge the first few posts as they may not be in complete succession.

Brian

Hi all

This came to our sailing list from Chuck Baier, General Manager Waterway Cruising Guide

A very scary situation for both the yacht owner and the law enforcement officers.

Rik

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We all know that the possibility of being boarded for a sanitation inspection is a possibility. And we have all heard reports of some aggressive and less than friendly boardings. Many of these reports have come from areas on the east coast of Florida. As boaters we all understand that dumping raw sewage into our waterways is in no way acceptable. Yesterday, a report circulated around several websites about a particular boarding that was reported by a boater, that happened in Volusia County involving the Sheriff's Department. After we had an opportunity to review the report we sent a request to the Volusia County Sherrif for comment. Here is a copy of the report followed by the response from the Information Officer at the Volusia County Sheriff''s Office. We leave you to decide for yourself. Keep in mind that we have no verification of the actual facts so we are presenting each sides account. Read on as posted on our Discussion Board......

We just received word of this report from a boat boarded in New Smyrna and the report is indeed disturbing. At this time we can not confirm this but we don't have any reason at this time to believe it is not true either. It is important enough that we thought our friends should be aware. Please read the following:

"I am the owner of Gulfstar 50 cruising sailboat . . . . I have been bringing the boat from Newport RI to southern Florida and points south for the last 14 years.Today,wed Nov. 3,2010, I was transiting the AICW from New Smyrna, Florida, southbound. I had come in from offshore last night, shutting my sanitation valves and diverting them to holding tanks as is my practice when onshore. They are remotely located and accessible only to me. My crew has no knowledge of their location.

At 1000 while I was below cooking bacon, my crew who was driving, yelled to me "we are being boarded by police". We gave no provocation for this incident. I prepared to shut off and secure the stove, hot liquid bacon grease,propane,flame etc. Next thing I see is an officer right next to me in the corridor of the galley with a .45 caliber automatic weapon drawn and pointed at my chest. "Get on deck" he ordered.

These officers never asked permission to board. We were cruising at 7 knots. 2 of the 3 officers had jumped on board . The remaining officer fell back in my wake in his boat, while the other officer (the one who had drawn his weapon on me), put dye in my heads and flushed. The boat behind said he saw no dye. So my tanks were retaining the discharge. The other officer on board proceeded to issue me a $250. citation for one "unsecured valve"

In conclusion, I think this type of unprovoked assault on an innocent cruising boat is inappropriate to say the least . It is uncalled for and an overreach of power. We had done absolutely nothing wrong. and we were not discharging anything overboard. my crew did not know where the. valves were. I was the operator of the vessel and was in total control of the sanitation system, yet I was given a citation (under gunpoint) referencing 327.53 which says I must do what I had already done.
Name Withheld by Request"

This is indeed disturbing and we have just sent a request to Sheriff Ben Johnson of the Volusia County Sheriff's office asking for a response. If anyone else would care to email him he can be reached at, [email protected] . We will post his reply. Chuck

And the response from the Sheriff's Department........

Thanks to all who've written to inquire about this incident. Unfortunately, the events as depicted on the web site posting don't convey all of the relevant facts surrounding the incident in question.

First off, the author is in fact correct that no provocation with law enforcement had occurred prior to the boarding. However, it should be clearly understood that no provocation is required, or even permission needed, for law enforcement to board a craft for the purposes of conducting a lawful inspection. The reality is that transient crafts moving through the waterways within our jurisdiction have been known to dump sewage into our waterways on many occasions. Along with ensuring boating safety and compliance with the rules of the water, the prevention of sewage dumping is another responsibility taken very seriously by the Volusia County Sheriff's Office and its Marine Unit. I feel certain that everyone with an interest in preventing the pollution of our waterways appreciates our efforts in this regard.

With that in mind, some key facts were omitted from the description of the encounter on November 3, 2010. Most notably, when our deputies boarded the craft, they ordered the two occupants on the top deck to stay where they were. In direct defiance of the deputies' order, one of the passengers ran to the cabin area, where noises could then be heard that sounded as if compartments or drawers were being opened. Not knowing the intent of the passenger or the reason for his failure to comply with their orders, and fearing that he may have been reaching for a weapon, a deputy did in fact draw his duty weapon for officer safety purposes.

This in no way was inappropriate, an over-reaction or an unprovoked assault, as alleged by the writer. Given the sequence of events, this was an entirely appropriate and necessary act on the part of the deputy until they could secure the occupants and gain control of the scene. To those on this web site who are questioning the actions of our deputies, I ask you to think for just a moment what you would have done in the same circumstance. Given the dangers that law enforcement officers face every day on the job, I also ask you to stop and consider what might have occurred if the passenger was, in fact, reaching for a weapon and the deputy had not drawn his weapon for protection. Our deputies are trained to exercise restraint. But they also are trained to draw their weapons if they perceive the potential for harm. Waiting for the danger to be upon them is tragically too late to react.

Lastly, it should be noted that the inspection of the craft did result in the discovery of a discharge valve that was not properly secured, as required. As unsettling as these events may have been for the occupants of the craft, the events would have transpired much differently had all of the occupants simply complied with the lawful commands of law enforcement.
Gary Davidson
Public Information Officer
Volusia County Sheriff's Office


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

I didn't know they put dye down the toilets. I wonder if the dye had gone in the water if the officer would be guilty of an illegal discharge? It is certainly evidence of an improperly secured waste valve but that alone does not cause sewage to go in the water unless someone pumps it overboard and in this instance, it would have been the officer that pumped it overboard. It's like check to see if a gun is loaded by pulling the trigger.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Hard to believe that the state has given local LEO the authority to board a boat without requesting permission. I don't believe the USCG will do that, or I've certainly never seen such. What happened to "a man's home is his castle..." when you live on the boat? This is a very bad over-stepping of authority, I assume by an un-thinking state legislature.

Who's going to take the fall when some over-eager officer (like the people in the story) climbs on an anchored boat in the middle of the night, and comes face-to-face with an owner, fresh from cruising in the bandit prone areas of Central America, who has drawn his legal protection weapon. Can't you see it coming?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Rikhal -

I just saw this too. I would like to start a thread on this with the name of the county and what happened and link to the direct thread (from another site). But I think this needs to get out there. I am not going to say one side was right/wrong or the other, but I want to make this very visible. And I want to urge all sides to keep a very open mind that all the facts may not have been reported, etc. The direct link to the thread in discussion is found here:

Cruiser's Net » Blog Archive » Important - Boarding Incident in Volusia County (between New Smyrna Beach and Mosquito Lagoon)

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

*Volusia County boaters and Sheriff's Department*

This is a redirect from Rikhal's post. I was already going to post this, then saw he had come up with it. I am moving his post to here because I want to make sure that when googles, it will pop up appropriatly. Please excuse my as I merge the first few posts as they may not be in complete succession.

Brian


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I think the Sheriff's Dept reply is well done. If anything, I'm surprised they didn't simply ignore the inquiry. For the sake of a web blog like this, if you weren't there, you just can't know for certain what happened. Here is the best I can observe from this limited info.

The OP is stating that his crew didn't know where the valves were. This isn't relevant to compliance and causes me to wonder why he is trying to oversell his case.

Assuming FL has similar requirement to anywhere else I've been with these laws, it isn't simply enough to turn the valve. It must be secured, locked, handle removed, etc to comply. I suspect he knew that too, but didn't admit it.

Police officers make mistakes. However, for the very few they make, they are accused of thousands more. As a generality, pulling your weapon is as much a liability as protection and an officer typically won't do it unless absolutely necessary. They are highly trained, scared straight you might say, in the consequences of improperly discharging a weapon. That can only happen while out of the holster. Again, mistakes are made.

So no, I can't know this wasn't one of the few bad mistakes or over reactions. The odds are that the crew did something that the officer legitimately assessed could become a threat. Whether it was or not, is not the standard. He/she has the right to ensure they return home to their family from a job checking for poopy in the river. That would be a pretty lousy mission to die over.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

You pull you gun, in my opinion, you better have a damn good reason for it... and IMHO, a lot more than hearing a door or drawer closing down below. We are talking about a leaking head for Gawd's sakes!!!! So what!!??? Can you imagine your kids seeing that - a gun pointed at their dad or mom? What would that do to a kid's perception of law enforcement?? 

Sorry - but that is way over the top. And boarding a boat because you think they might have flushed overboard?? Gustapo.

And before anyone here goes off on this being an isolated incident and blown out of proportions, let me tell YOU a story. Everyone knows me here. I am very transparent.

In Aprilish of this last year, we had a approximately 70 year old man and wife show up at our marina to stay for a while. We are talking a very senior coule. Well, the approach to our docks is tricky beacuse you have to go against your nature and stay very close to the shore on the canal. THis is in Fort Myers Beach past the Mound House - FYI. Anyways, I told him I would take him out the next morning and we headed out around 9ish in the morning in his Avon tender (rubber inflateable boat). I showed him and his wife where to go and how to travel so they could get out at low(er) tide. 

On our way back, I was driving, we got pulled over by the Sherrifs department. I couldn't believe it and askede them why. It was a safety check, or some such nonsense. They wanted whistles - had it. DL - had it. Registration - had it. This guy had everything (it was his tender). He even had the up to date sticker on his boat. These people even asked us to blow our whistle to make sure it would work (the orange whistles). THey looked perturbed. SO then they found out that the sticker he had on his boat, though it saiys through X-month, expired a few days before because of hsi birthday or something. SO they wrote him a warning (and not a citation). Then they let us go. 

The point of all of this is that it has gotten WAYYYYYYY too agressive. Go put your time somwhere into protecting the people and not pulling over a 70 year old man and friend in a 10 foot rubber boat with everything apparently in order on the off chance you might just find something. Sorry - but I see this as soviet union type of stuff. Yeah, you might have the right to pull us over, but is it the right thing to do??

Anyways, Florida has gotten very ugly and strict, from the story above, to my story, to the anchoring laws (anyone want to mention Marco Island debacle??), etc. And to think this state wants to cater to tourists. I will tell you that my 70 yo friend said, "This is the reason kids grow up hating police and not trusting them. That is flat-out harrasment." I agree with him. 

Brian


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Minnewaska said:


> I think the Sheriff's Dept reply is well done. If anything, I'm surprised they didn't simply ignore the inquiry.......
> 
> Police officers make mistakes. However, for the very few they make, they are accused of thousands more. As a generality, pulling your weapon is as much a liability as protection and an officer typically won't do it unless absolutely necessary. They are highly trained, scared straight you might say, in the consequences of improperly discharging a weapon. That can only happen while out of the holster. Again, mistakes are made.
> 
> So no, I can't know this wasn't one of the few bad mistakes or over reactions. The odds are that the crew did something that the officer legitimately assessed could become a threat. Whether it was or not, is not the standard. He/she has the right to ensure they return home to their family from a job checking for poopy in the river. That would be a pretty lousy mission to die over.


ANY situation starting with three armed officers boarding a moving vessel without permission for the purpose of checking a head ...is a big mistake...an an accident waiting to happen. Even if it is legal...(do we really know that)...it is wrong and wrong. Somebody is going to get hurt...and for what?

Frankly, if I were driving my vessel and a police vessel pulled aggressively alongside I believe my natural reaction would be to turn away...and attempt to evade a forced boarding until the who and why is established. I mean what are they going to do...shoot me?


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Minnewaska said:


> I think the Sheriff's Dept reply is well done. If anything, I'm surprised they didn't simply ignore the inquiry. For the sake of a web blog like this, if you weren't there, you just can't know for certain what happened. Here is the best I can observe from this limited info.
> 
> The OP is stating that his crew didn't know where the valves were. This isn't relevant to compliance and causes me to wonder why he is trying to oversell his case.
> 
> ...


Sorry Minnewaska - 
I and my wife also have had almost the exact same experience in Volusia County Florida and will gladly appear to testify that this particular group of deputy sheriffs in Volusia County Florida do indeed use drastic intimidation and do brandish weapons ..... for MSDS inspections !!!!!!

As a very long term paramedic I can also state that my personal observations are that police/LEOs in general are now trending to an almost uniform disrespect of the general citizenry and treat most citizens as the 'enemy'. Ive also noted increasingly that most LEOs are now behaving simply as 'hired-guns' or mercenaries whose true purpose is primarily and seemingly to enhance the municipal 'revenue' ... & not much more. 
I am rapidly losing MOST of any respect Ive ever had for LEOs; as, they have they in general have started to become 'the enemy' and the general citizenry are vastly becoming their 'prey species'. ... and Im a 'very conservative' person. 
It was not the nobility of France that first went to the guillotine at the start of the French Revolution, it was the gendarmes!


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

They're boarding boats underway along this stretch of the ICW (New Symrna Beach to Mosquito Lagoon) quite often now. I got boarded a couple of years ago. Catching a lot of southbound boats that come in at Ponce Inlet with the Y valve not locked.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Both accounts (sides) of the story seem just plain old WRONG. As others have pointed out...doesn't matter if the crew knew where the valves where, either they were or weren't secured. DOES matter that, what, armed LEO's just used SWAT tactics to board a moving vessel, in such a way that the deck crew didn't have time to call the owner up top before it happened?

Sounds like that Sheriff is covering up for some gung-hos that need to be gung ho'ed off his force and into a banana republic. I don't care if Admiral Nimitz is visiting from the dead, you start with "Heave to and prepare to be boarded" and "Permission to come aboard" or you can expect a hostile reception. F*ing cowboys in that county?

He wouldn't be the first Florida county Sheriff to leave office and put on a state-issued jumpsuit, there's definitely something wrong in this picture. With BOTH accounts of it.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I posted a very long reply on AS with many of my very bad experiences with Florida there. 

If I had not been the subject of many of their quota-meeters, I too would not have jumped in defense of this captain. But most of the cruisers I know feel just like what has been reported by this captain, myself, Vasco, Rich_h and Sailingfool.

Come on down. Give it a try. You will see and you will change your tune too. It is that bad down here and I question the legality of it. But that is kinda hard to do when tied up to a sherrifs boat and he is threatening to write a ticket... for something. Because belive me, somewhere, somehow, in someway, you broke a low at some point in Florida as a boater and you deserve to pay for it. 

BTW - we have: The USCG patroliing (only nice ones, in general with some exceptions as I have met a few nice sherrifs), then the Sherrifs department has MANY boats, then the Florida Parks and Wildlife has their pull-over boats (almost seems like they outnumber the public's boats), then you have the municipalities patrol boats. They all like writing tickets - except for the USCG who have generally shown to be very thoughtful and mostly interested in your safety and the safety of your vessel - not meeting their quotas or a leaking head.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> Both accounts (sides) of the story seem just plain old WRONG. As others have pointed out...doesn't matter if the crew knew where the valves where, either they were or weren't secured. DOES matter that, what, armed LEO's just used SWAT tactics to board a moving vessel, in such a way that the deck crew didn't have time to call the owner up top before it happened?
> 
> Sounds like that Sheriff is covering up for some gung-hos that need to be gung ho'ed off his force and into a banana republic. I don't care if Admiral Nimitz is visiting from the dead, you start with "Heave to and prepare to be boarded" and "Permission to come aboard" or you can expect a hostile reception. F*ing cowboys in that county?
> 
> He wouldn't be the first Florida county Sheriff to leave office and put on a state-issued jumpsuit, there's definitely something wrong in this picture. With BOTH accounts of it.


Let's forget the captains account and just take the Public Relations account: You just boarded a boat because you thought their head might be leaking (I mean, get serious... but whatever). Two people are in the cockpit. One screams down that there is law enforcement coming aboard. So you, as the officer, hear a drawer open below or some ruffling. So you jump down the hatch, pistol drawn? Give me a break!! I am not sure the United States Marines would jump down a hatch, single man, with a pistol, to take on the bad guys. You call them out above the boat and then send a team down to cover each other. You do it carefully and with precaution. Don't you see that?? You are an office rof the law - do you board a boat, most likely of normal looking people, then hear a drawer rattle down below then jump down to the guy cooking bacon and aim at him!??? No - something is very wrong with teir story too. You don't do a Superman. We are not talking about intelligence leading to Osama Bin Laden on a 50 foot Gulfstar which could not outrun a canoe. We are talking about them thinking a head might have pumped overboard!!!

This is NOT Iraq and it is not Halo. Their story stinks and the entire premise stinks. And again, remember that the rebuff was written by a Public Relations officer. You surely did not expect him to state: _Yeah, we boarded the vessel because we thought they might have pumped overboard and we pulled a pistol and would have shot him at provocation... and if you don't like it, then you can go to jail. This is Florida... welcome._

Brian


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

It sucks BUT welcome to standard powerboat treatment as the need for income rises


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## IslanderGuy (Apr 26, 2008)

Although I do not have a source to sight at the moment, one thing I remember from studying law enforcement in college is an alarming amount of officers who are killed are found with there gun still in their holster, often with evidence they tried to draw, but had not unbuttoned the strap. Police are trained when to loosen the gun in the holster, when to have their hand on the gun, and when to draw for very good reasons. Unfortunately, since a large percentage of the people they deal with are not a threat, they can get relaxed and that is when most officers get killed.

The police response stated that a man on deck was order to stay on deck, but failed to follow that order and went below. To me that is reason to draw your weapon. They do not know who these people are, what they have on board, or why this guy refused to follow the order. No one was shot, no one was hurt, personally I think people take to much offense when police put their hands on their guns or draw their weapons. "What know of person does he think I am?" is an argument I hear a lot, but the fact is he has know idea, and most people who do shot cops do not have a "I like to shot cops" tee shirt on.

They did not draw weapons because they thought there was a sewage discharge issue, they boarded to do an inspection, which included a discharge inspection as well as other checks I am sure, and drew weapons because someone disobeyed orders and went below.

All that said, I do not live in Florida, have never boated there, and have not had this type of boarding occur on my boat. I can understand that the LEOs are likely getting way over zealous as I have seen several reports here about situations that seem way over the top, but this does not seem like it was really all that out of line, except perhaps the boarding while underway. Even that I have mixed feelings about. I would like to have a "heave to and prepare to be boarded" notice, and a few minutes to stop the boat, however for other people that would be a few minutes to hide / dump all the illegal stuff they have on board. If you want to catch the guys breaking the law, you can't exactly just sit around patiently waiting for them to destroy the evidence first. However, I must admit that if I was boarded with no notice while underway, I may have other opinions.

One last minor point....

"a .45 caliber automatic weapon drawn and pointed at my chest" Handguns carried by police are not generally automatic weapons, so ether it was not an automatic weapon, or it was not a holster-able weapon, in which case it would logically be in his hands, or over his shoulder which would make it totally useless. The police report says "draw his duty weapon for officer safety purposes" so likely this was a handgun, and not an automatic. Minor point I know, if you are shot, it really does not matter if the gun was auto or semi-auto 

Ok, one last last point...

"yet I was given a citation (under gunpoint) " Where they really still pointing guns at this point? That does seem way overboard if they where, or was this just for dramatic effect, because they had guns on them. I can not see them actually point a gun at him while handing over the ticket, but if they where, that's just nuts.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

First off, I agree that the actions of the LEO's as reported seemed to be heavy handed. They initiated the boarding not as a routine inspection but as an assault on a moving vessel. This left little room for escalation of authority short of actually letting rounds fly. Bad technique, bad decision, and bad control. Things went downhill from there.

However, I think many are missing the point. Although an MSD inspection was the stated proximate cause for the boarding, you've got to remember that that's the ONLY legally permissible reason for local LEO's to inspect a vessel with or without the owners consent. This is the nautical equivalent of pulling over an out-of-state car on the interstate just because the state trooper has a "feeling" that something's hinky. You think they pull over every car that's got a burned out bulb or drifts over the center line? Nope, only the ones they think may have more serious issues.

What we don't know from the narratives of those directly involved is what happened immediately prior to the boarding. Did they attempt to hail the vessel? Did they attempt to have the vessel heave to? Not sure. But if they did, and the vessel continued with actions to comply, then perhaps the LEOs considered that to be of itself a suspicious action that warranted the stormtrooper response. Don't know that either. 

I agree with RichH's overall assessment of the mindset of some of today's LEO's. I think that the old motto "To Serve and Protect" has been largely forgotten, or taken to mean "To Serve my boss, and to Protect my paycheck." This is not a condemnation of LEO's as a whole, but of those who enthusiastically go out of their way to be a$$holes. I suspect that in large part, this is condoned or even encouraged by their chain of command.

Anyway, I find fault with both the Volusia County deputies and the vessel crew in the original post.


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## dinodino (Dec 9, 2002)

The reply from the Sheriff's Office is sober and well-reasoned. I can also sympathize with the boat owner. The lesson I take away from this is that effective communications from the initial point of contact is absolutely vital when dealing with the authorities in a situation like this.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

My friends, I won't defend every bad act, but there are no atheists in a foxhole. When it is your life they are protecting, I'll bet you don't spit on them. 

I argue you might all become jaded after having your life threatened multiple times this year, when you unknowingly approached someone with an outstanding warrant, recreational drugs in their possession or consuming alcohol on parole. Scared people to desperate things.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I also suspect the swift in-motion boardings are the result of people running below and shutting the valve as they see the approach. Asking permission to come aboard and check for flares and PFDs is not time critical.

If the violations stopped, I am certain they would move on. 

Or vote for someone who will change the law and they will move on.


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

I can clearly see both sides of the story, but have no respect the way they boarded the boat, discovered no leakage, but wrote a ticket anyway, allegedly under cover of a firearm. That's Nazi-like behavior.

Trust me, if something like that happened to me, I would make it my new hobby to make sure the Nazis were out of a job. 

Haven't been boarded yet. Not looking forward to it. I have my boat in order, my little whistle around my neck, everything I can think off. 

Note to Self: Never ever visit Florida waters.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Police are trained when to "
Lilo, that's a nice theory and many times it is true. Sadly...
When Glock brought their radical new "plastic" guns to the US and was trying to convince PD's to rade in their revolvers (REVOLVERS) for the new Glock 9mms, they had a little problem with the NYPD. Now, you would think the NYPD is professionally trained, after all they are one of the largest PDs in the nation. Nope, they had more than a half dozen cops complain that the Glock discharged when drawn from the holster, resulting in shooting themselves in the foot. Literally.

Truth is, the Glock has a trigger safety and cannot be fired unless the trigger is pulled. All those highly trained NYPD were drawing the gun with their finger already on the trigger--and pulling it hard enough to shoot themselves. 

As a result PDs all over the nation laugh at Glock's "NYPD trigger option", where the trigger pull on the pistols is just about doubled to make it harder to accidentally shoot yourself in the foot.

Well trained?

Florida doesn't have a monopoly on "Bubba's nephew wants a job" but they also don't have the rep for the nation's finest in law enforcement.

Sounds like some cruisers need to put webcams on the mast, document a few boardings, and then make a few phone calls. Fortunately, there is almost always a state, federal, or civil organization that can and will toss the bad apples out of the barrel.


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## MikeAR (Aug 28, 2008)

I remember a street policeman - a lieutenant no less - tell me half-jokingly "give me 10 minutes, I can find an ordinance against anything you're doing." 
He went on to mention playing catch in the front yard, and a few other examples. It was 1982, but I'm just saying ... attitude is everything.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I also suspect the swift in-motion boardings are the result of people running below and shutting the valve as they see the approach. Asking permission to come aboard and check for flares and PFDs is not time critical.
> 
> If the violations stopped, I am certain they would move on.
> 
> Or vote for someone who will change the law and they will move on.


I see your point, but question the urgency. If they are going to cite the owner for not properly securing the overboard discharge fitting, then conducting a blitz boarding isn't necessary and the risks far outweigh the gains.

Why do the LEO's feel that they've got to "catch someone red-handed?" if not for the potential revenue from a hefty fine?

I grew up in FL, and have some fairly detailed knowledge of the income-driven approach to traffic law enforcement. Waldo -- so notorious that even the AAA formally classifies it as a speed trap -- was only a few miles from my home and sat between me and both work sites and play sites.

I've also spent many, many hours on FL's waterways. In just the past year, we sailed down the Gulf Coast, hung out on a mooring ball in Marathon for a couple of months, and then sailed up the Atlantic Coast. This was done in a vessel registered in Michigan. We were never boarded, an in fact were never even hailed by any of the numerous federal, state, or local LEO's. Exchanged some pleasant waves, but that's it.

I'm not saying that there's anything good about the event that started this thread, but that not every cruiser has horror stories to share. YMMV.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Cops down there are some of the most aggressive anywhere.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Minnewaska said:


> I argue you might all become jaded after having your life threatened multiple times this year, when you unknowingly approached someone with an outstanding warrant, recreational drugs in their possession or consuming alcohol on parole. Scared people to desperate things.


What outstanding warrant was noted??? What recreational drugs were suspected/seen/viewed? What parole was in violatiion, what alcohol was viewed? 
The complainant was allegedly simply ****BOATING**** ... is that a valid condition of 'probable cause' ?????????? mm... is that a reason to display the immediate *probable* use of DEADLY FORCE??????

So explain to us how your above statement somehow absolves a LEO from putting a gun to the chest of someone who is 'simply' boating / cooking in the galley and needs to shut down the cooking, etc.' or to terrorize the absolute $#!+ out of innocent others to happen to be passing-by... because he's 'jaded' ???!!!!???!!! Are you actually for REAL????? <grin>

With assumptions evident, If you and other LEOs dont clearly understand that most citizens are law abiding but are unknowing of the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of inane/arcane laws; and that most citizens are NOT criminals nor POTENTIAL criminals; and If you are also supporting or promoting that each and every citizen now is coming close to be needing to be personally escorted by an attorney (now 1 attorney for every 240 citizens in the USA) so that a normally law-abiding citizen can PROTECT oneself from the seldom enforced, rarely enforced, sometimes enforced, etc etc. exactitude of the LAW; and that most citizens dont know that many/most LEOs can be or are pizzed-off and JADED LEOs ...... please please please consider to get a new job or a job that results in some 'good' for society, officer. <no grin> 
If you disagree with any of this, then truly you ARE become the ENEMY, as from my recent experience*s*, 'criminals' dont treat the citizen-boaters as badly as the 'water-nazis' in Florida, especially Volusia County. :hammer


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Cruising at power, 7 knots, and the officer claims to have heard something below. Typical. And lame.


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## HDChopper (Oct 17, 2010)

I am biteing my lip and going to keep my mouth shut ! you dont really want to know what I have seen ArGGggg !!

EDIT: okok one simple part of it is ....thay train there are good guys ( them) & BAD GUYS ..guess who !!!!!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"So explain to us how your above statement somehow absolves a LEO from " terminal stupidity is what needs to be absolved.

"Captain, are all hands on deck? No? Then call them all up on deck." Going below, into a confined and unknown space with potential threats in it, is terminal stupidity. Sending your man below that way, even worse on the rank that directed it.

Bad police work, bad training, bad policy. What, like Dave's gonna flush the stash into the holding tank before you can get below? ("Dave's not here man!")

Oh wait, let me guess, they had an anonymous tip that a boat was carrying HP laser printer cartridges...The only thing that amazes me, is that the good cops don't get more upset about the bad cops. Who are really pissing in the soup they ALL have to drink. Bad, inept, dumb, incompetent, corrupt, pick a word, any word. Cops like these are a real cops worst enemy.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I don't know guys, I'm seeing this differently. First, I have no knowledge of what has/has not been happening in FL. I've rarely been there and only a few days in a boat. In the OP report of the incident he doesn't say that he went on deck and then went back down but the Sheriff's report says that after telling whoever was on deck to stay there one of them went down into the cabin and they heard things moving around. This is South Florida, right? Land of drug dealers, smugglers, etc? Unless someone can explain how I'm wrong, I've got to say that if this is the way it happened I don't blame the officer for drawing his weapon. It's hard to swallow that the police have the right to board your vessel basically any time for any reason, but as I understand it that is the law. Until the law is changed when law enforcement officers board me I'll say "How can I help you Officer?". I might not like it, but they have the law on their side and also the guns. $250 fine for unsecured Y-valve is robbery as well as chicken poo IMHO.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

We have only one side of the story. I'd like to hear the other side before I form an opinion.
keep in mind two words: Tawana Brawley.
or two more: Susan Smith.

I'm not saying the skipper of the boarded boat is hinky, I am simply hoping ot get more input , because there are some things that don't add up to me, starting with a refusal to provide his/her name and/or the name of the vessel.

CD, I'm a little surprised at a moderator being so immoderate.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Seems like our arguments are not separating the issues well at all. 

The emotional one is whether this LEO exceeded his authority, used excessive force or improperly drew his weapon. I will not condone violations by the officers nor the public. Since we were not there, all the above conclusions are based upon the reader's imagination of the circumstances. I simply tried to suggest that there are circumstances that would make some of the above critics wet their pants. What if one out of every ten times you enter your office, someone threatens your life. That day didn't look different than any other until you came around the corner. It can't look different, the bad guys hide it. Yes, you need a good reason to point a loaded gun at someone. I think you would draw yours if you simply heard someone in your office after the above suggestion.

The factual issue is the local Sheriff's Dept has issued orders for their officers to make these boardings and check for compliance. You are required by law to accomodat the inspection. They aren't rogue LEOs on a vendetta. The Sheriff is an elected official wherever I've been. The law was written by other elected officials. The LEO is not the root issue.

This is not, despite the drama of one of the posts above, Nazi Germany. You can do something about it. Ranting here isn't going to fix anything.


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## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

I don't like the nanny state that we seem to be in nor the over regulations that go along with it. We can all do something about it by voting in people who understand that simple statement and take actions to do something about it rather than just applying lip service at election time.

I've only been boarded once by the coast guard and they boarded while I maintained course under sail. No complaints and the two who boarded were very professional. One observation is that the officer in charge went below with me directly following him and he did turn his back to me out of sight of the other coastie. Not a good practice if I'ld been a bad guy.

There are two other episodes that friends told me about. One person was sailing offshore is a race at night and out of no where came a coast guard RIB with 5 or 6 people aboard requesting that he hove to. He refused saying that just because that they were all in a RIB did not give him a good feeling that they were actually coast guard and not in fact pirates in disguise. They disappeared in the night and returned with some picture ID's....which he still questioned. Finally he told them to light up the mother ship so that he could see for a fact it was a CG ship. This they did and permission was granted for them to board.....but by this time they decided that he was legit and went on without boarding.

Another episode was with the marine police. Another friend was anchored and took the dinghy ashore for the dog to go potty. When he was ashore the police came by and wanted to see his life preserver which he did not have in the dinghy. He refused to show the life preserver and stayed put on land until the police finally left. Apparently they can't issue a citation unless seeing you in the dinghy even though it was obvious how he got on land.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Minnewaska said:


> Seems like our arguments are not separating the issues well at all.
> 
> The emotional one is whether this LEO exceeded his authority, used excessive force or improperly drew his weapon. I will not condone violations by the officers nor the public. Since we were not there, all the above conclusions are based upon the reader's imagination of the circumstances. I simply tried to suggest that there are circumstances that would make some of the above critics wet their pants. What if one out of every ten times you enter your office, someone threatens your life. That day didn't look different than any other until you came around the corner. It can't look different, the bad guys hide it. Yes, you need a good reason to point a loaded gun at someone. I think you would draw yours if you simply heard someone in your office after the above suggestion.
> 
> ...


Your rantings are typical of Criminal Cops protecting one another. Let me state again .... Almost the very same thing happened to me and my wife in Volusia County, in the almost same place, and probably by the very same deputy. I have agreed to testify if needed. 
It is sad, but VERY typical, that one LEO not knowing the facts nor the facts of adjacent criminal activity of same deputies, attempts to make a blanket exoneration or become chief apologist of all LEOs, ..... have you no HONOR at all??? Get a life, get a 'decent' or 'honorable' job and stop making excuses for your fellow CRIMINALS. 
I know what Nazis are, many of my family were nazis and many of my family members suffered from the nazis ... they too always blanket exonerated their polizei.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

RichH said:


> Your rantings are typical of Criminal Cops protecting one another..........
> 
> It is sad, but VERY typical, that one LEO not knowing the facts nor the facts of adjacent criminal activity of same deputies, attempts to make a blanket exoneration or become chief apologist of all LEOs, .....
> 
> have you no HONOR at all??? Get a life, get a 'decent' or 'honorable' job and stop making excuses for your fellow CRIMINALS..........


Seriously, I get it. You have a major axe to grind. But consider this, you got my profession wrong. You might not be as cogent as you think.

I hope you are directing this misguided anger toward the policy makers that established the rules to board your craft. There are serious environmentalists that intend to make discharge rules even stronger. Grey water will eventually be required to stay in holding as well. Fire at the right target, or it will continue to come after you, no matter how much you mouth off.


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## RobCross (Aug 31, 2010)

While I have no experience with Florida boat cops, I have had good and bad experiences with land locked cops. I would hope to think the situation would be the same on the water, where you could run into officers that are professional and polite or those that are along the lines of I am a cop and you are scum of the earth, RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!!.

I was similarly outraged last year from one of our counties finest detained me for over an hour for the simple fact that I was riding a motorcycle at 1:30AM and simply HAD to be up to no good. Didn't take into consideration I had just left work and was simply headed home, I was even still wearing my work uniform. When I told him that I was on the way home from work, this wonderful deputy actually looked at me and said Don't lie to me and expect me to think that the base is open 24/7 (I work on an Air Force base as a civilian acft mechanic, and yes it IS open 24/7). 

When I went to make a complaint I got about the same general response as the letter in the OP post. Unless there is unreasonable amount of evidence the Sheriffs office would back up their men no matter what. I would suspect the same happened here, it is a case of they said we said and the officers have the backing of their department and we only have the word of the people involved.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

4. Eliminate septic system leachate discharges into Rose Bay.
The City of Port Orange and County of Volusia are working together to develop alternatives and funding options in providing sewer service to all Rose Bay residents. The City of Port Orange has qualified for a $6 million state revolving fund (SRF) loan to finance infrastructure improvements to connect central sewer service. Residents of Harbor Oaks have annexed into the City of Port Orange to provide city central sewer service. The County has indicated that the unincorporated area of Allandale will also be included in the sewage system upgrade.

Through local, state, and federal partnerships, Rose Bay can regain its former beauty and once again function as a productive estuary.


You just cant make this stuff Up the sewer system is marginal to nonexistent i guess there gonna pay for it with y-valve fines

U.S. Supreme Court Limits Police Search Powers During Arrests 

And somebody update me as to when it became legal for the police to board and search at will as That was ONLY given to the Coast Guard


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## Dfok (Apr 11, 2010)

*Sadly this probably is the new normal*

Seems to me since 9/11 we've had a general militarization of our police forces and some officers have taken it as license to do whatever they want; probable cause can be figured out later.
In my wildest imagination I would never have thought of city and local police in the US dressing in black, covering their faces with balaclava, brandishing automatic assault weapons and forcing citizens into and out of motor vehicles, homes, businesses, public places - pretty much anywhere they want all in the name of "you can't be too careful".
You can, we are, and bad stuff still happens. 
Somewhere along the line part of the uniform became a shaved head, wrap around sunglasses, leather gloves to avoid touching the public and an "us versus them" attitude that departments and older officers either didn't or couldn't stop. 
I've known a lot of good cops over many decades, for most it was a badge of honor that they rarely or never pulled their service weapon. 
Many jobs are statistically and in reality more dangerous - commercial fishing and mining come to mind.
Every year many officers are killed in the line of duty in automobile accidents - most of them single car accidents. 
Too many of our LEOs take their lives with their own weapons or are killed accidentally with them. 
I'm sure law enforcement is a stressful occupation and often without thanks. But with that as a standard we'd all be pulling Glocks on each other all the time. 
Back to the particulars of this thread - not shocking, certainly worrying. Had the vessel captain been wearing an oven mitt to move that pan of bacon he might be dead if he turned too quick. Certainly it would have ruined his life and that of the officer on the other side of the weapon - one shot, two victims.
I think the general change is even worse - when police behave as an occupying force where only the folks in blue are really okay, we, them and our way of life are in serious danger. 
Terrorism is all about creating fear using a small force to move a larger force. We've compromised the freedom of our own nation in the name of defending against terrorists. Just what they wanted. Score one for them.
As for the war on drugs - we've made it too profitable to ever stop. It will never stop.
The war on sewage is a whole different thing, maybe a franchise operation? Death to Dumpers!?
If history is a lesson watch for the next step - dump sewage accidentally, or your engine leaks, bilge pump works too well or charts, hat or Coca Cola get blown overboard and your vessel may be confiscated as "proceeds of a criminal operation". Then it is eligible to be sold to provide funds for more and faster boats to apprehend more.......and on and on and on.
On the other hand you can drive an oil tanker or massive yacht onto rocks or coral reefs or blow out oil all over the Gulf of Mexico and no guns will be pointed at anyone. If police show up at all it will be to protect you from the "media" or the send the "media" off the publicly owned beach at the direction of privately owned PR folks. And ultimately the real dollar value of your fine will not amount to the failure to close a "sea ****" sanction.
This has nothing to do with sanitation, security or justice. It is about dollars. 
As for being boarded in US waters, it is not your choice. If asked and you refuse that will be noted (particularly to any prosecutor involved) then ignored. In U.S. waters you can be boarded by any law enforcement officer at any time. Anything you say to that LEO can and will be used to prosecute you to the full extent of the law if you are arrested, or to bust your chops if you are not. "I only had two beers" is not a smart way to go. 
"I closed all the sea cocks" might be good until they find one open. Are they sealed? Are you watching every move of the investigators? - of course not, you and the crew are being held, maybe at gunpoint, in the cockpit. Oh-oh, you just lied to an officer in an investigation. Martha Stewart and many others went to jail for that one.
The OP is fortunate that it worked out as well as it did, and that probably is the new normal - he was screwed but just think about how bad it could have been.


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

*Florida regulations*

As I'm thinking of visiting Florida on my way back from the Caribbean next spring I took an interest in this post. I then had a look at the Clean Vessel Act FAQ page on the Florida Department of Environmental Protection:
Clean Vessel Act Boater FAQ | Florida Clean Marina Program | Florida DEP

With regard to boardings for purposes of inspection it states:



> *Are marine sanitation devices subject to inspection?*
> Yes. When the owner or operator is aboard, an officer may board a vessel with consent or if there is probable cause or knowledge to believe that a violation has occurred or is occurring. An officer may also board a vessel if the operator refuses or is unable to display the safety or marine sanitation equipment.


Let's unpack this:



> When the owner or operator is aboard, an officer may board a vessel WITH CONSENT... (emphasis mine)


 -- that's clear enough, eh? "Consent" assumes a request is made to come aboard before the LEOs leap over your lifelines.



> ...or IF THERE IS PROBABLE CAUSE OR KNOWLEDGE to believe that a violation has occurred or is occurring. (Again, emphasis mine)


We'll need a lawyer to explain the law surrounding probably cause, but a quick look at Wikipedia (I know...it's not the best source but it's quick and this discussion is among friends) provides the following:



> The best-known definition of probable cause is "a reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime".[2] Another common definition is "a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true".[3]


 Now this leaves me wondering how the Volusia country sheriffs justified jumping over the lifelines unannounced. What was the indication that a crime was being committed, or was about to be committed? How was "a reasonable amount of suspicion" generated by these boaters? One guys a the wheel, another topside, a guy below fixing breakfast. Oooooohhhhhh....looks suspicious to me. Maybe it was the coffee the guy at the helm was drinking, because we all know what happens every morning after you've had your coffee.

To continue with the unpacking of DEP's FAQ on inspections...



> An officer may also board a vessel if the operator refuses...


 This also seems to imply that a request to come aboard is made before boarding and that the request is refused, in which case the LEOs are coming aboard anyway.

And finally, an officer may board if the operator is....



> unable to display the safety or marine sanitation equipment.


 I think they got us here...hard to rip out the head, haul it to the cockpit to "show" them. But, again, I think the presumption here must be that the LEO inquires first (as he pulls along side the LEO inquires, "Hey, skipper, you got a head?.....Yea, well show me?").

I haven't yet gone through the other bits of Florida law that might apply to a boarding officer engaged in doing his duty, but from what the Department of Environmental Protection is saying to the boating community via their webpage on this topic, it seems to me as if the sheriffs in Volusia country might be stepping over the line.


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## Dfok (Apr 11, 2010)

*speaking of can't be too careful*

apparently seacock and sea **** are seen differently here - one gets **** and one does not.
Can't be too careful there........


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

This jailhouse lawyer just looked up the Flordia code and here's what it says:



> *2006 Florida Code*
> *TITLE XXIV VESSELS*
> *Chapter 327 VESSEL SAFETY *
> 
> ...


Now we know where the FAQ language originates (see my post above). My reading of this indicates that the law allows boardings by LEOs for a safety and sanitation equipment inspection to be done under any of the following circumstances:

1. Consent of the owner/operator
2. Probably cause or knowledge of a violation has occurred or is occurring
3. Inspection permanently installed equipment, but only after permission to board has be requested and refused.

I may be overstating (misintrepreting) the law in #3, but it seems to me that only circumstance #2 does not require the LEO to make a request to board before jumping the lifelines.

So I think what this means is that if they don't have "probably cause" they need to ask permission to board. Permission may be granted or refused; and, if refused, they may board anyway to inspect permanently installed equipment. Bottom line: they're coming aboard.

Now I guess we need to discuss what constitutes probably cause that a violation is taking place or is about to take place. Only thing I can think of is "floaters" in the wake.

Any real lawyers out there want to comment?


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

While i can just type with spell check and still have bad grammar i did not pass that to my son the Assistant District Attorney 

We are having a debate about the CG vs Police boarding at will and the legality of it as the Police sure cant do this on land 

I wish it was still racing season because there is and Admiralty Lawyer in the fleet


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> You pull you gun, in my opinion, you better have a damn good reason for it... and IMHO, a lot more than hearing a door or drawer closing down below. We are talking about a leaking head for Gawd's sakes!!!! So what!!??? Can you imagine your kids seeing that - a gun pointed at their dad or mom? What would that do to a kid's perception of law enforcement??
> 
> Sorry - but that is way over the top. And boarding a boat because you think they might have flushed overboard?? Gustapo.
> 
> ...


I'm no big fan of LEO as I have personal experience of their overzealous activities, but I do have to say that if the circumstances were remotely like the situation described in the LEO response (ie the cop told someone to stay still and they ran below decks) that would be all I needed to draw my firearm.)

Yes, what it turned out to be was a toilet valve that may or may not have been in the proper position when the boat was boarded. However, it could have been a boat load of drugs or a floating meth lab full of tweakers. The cop had no idea. All he saw was someone not doing what he asked, in a place where weapons could reasonably be expected.

When I used to shoot in defensive pistol matches, I was pretty fast and pretty accurate. I once got to do a drill where a person stood 21' away from me and I tried to draw an fire one shot before the covered the distance to me. It was nearly impossible and highly illustrative of how fast things happen in dangerous situations. I can't blame the officer for reacting as alleged if the boater acted as alleged.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

The first mistake was not making their presence a KNOWN FACT, and then not requestiong everyone on deck. Second was not asking if there are weapons aboard. Once the situation is stable is the time to board, and do inspections.

They are using us for training, and eventually someone is going to be shot. Here is what I posted on CF. GCSs is just a few miles north, and east of New Smyrna on the St. Johns River.....

*Yes, but the valved needs to be secured, and that is most likely why there was a citation. Everything else is inexcusable, and this crew should be reprimanded without pay for some length of time.

This is pale compared to what happened to another member here in Green Cove Springs Fl. Someone called the authorities that marijuana was on the boat. Itwas tied to the slip, and what descended upon them was the ridiculous

I witnessed one large helicopter hovering for more than an hour after the person was arrested. Turns out there was no pot on the boat, but in his car. There were no less a dozen officers with a dog also on the dock, or on the boat. There must have been a half dozen police cars, and it was obvious the left hand, and right hand recognized they were together. To top this off there was a 30-35ft. scarab type boat with several huge engines mounted tied across his stern. Just where did they think this guy was going in a 33ft cruiser?

No matter what kind of job it is. You will always find a butthead, or 2 doing it. What's crazy is they had to drop the charges the very next morning. How much was spent to accomplish nothing?.........i2f __________________*


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## ffiill (Jul 15, 2010)

I live in a country where(perhaps sadly)we do not have rules regarding sewerage discharge and most yachts therefore do not have holding tanks.
However on our canal system and in harbours and marinas these rules do apply and as well as providing sewerage discharge stations they also provide full toilet facilities for those visiting yachts.
Rule is you do not discharge over the side in these areas.
Were I or any other boat from UK visiting US waters doubt I would have specially installed holding tanks.All that could be expected were that valves were all closed.
Surely anyway the worst offenders are big ships;town sewerage systems and factory complexes! The odd bit of s--- from a yacht is hardly going to do any serious harm.
As for having a gun waved at you that tends to be a problem where gun carrying is the order of the day.
Here in the UK of course that is ever more on the increase. A Swat officer has recently been suspended because when providing a written statement regarding his shooting an armed (if mentally unwell) individual he repeatedly used catch phrases out of various action movies .
When you see our armed Police at Airports their style is scary-shaved heads;low slung automatic sub machine gun;body armour plus the swagger!
Sometimes think this is worse than in US where all officers are armed.
My wife on a Christmas Shopping Trip some years ago found the NY Police were some of the most friendly and helpful Police she had ever met.
I have only once experienced a gun in my face-a Colt Automatic!-a Spanish Border Police Officer whilst crossing into Spain from France on a minor crossing.
A very hot dusty day hitting 100 degrees-he could not speak English,I could not speak Spanish-gave him all my Documents and he kept waving the gun in my face. Finally a colleague cooled him down and I went on my way.Many weeks later I realised that what he wanted was sight of my "Bail Bond" which in those days was a legal requirment in Spain-a third party liability guarantee.I did not have one!


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

billyruffn said:


> This jailhouse lawyer just looked up the Flordia code and here's what it says:
> 
> 1. Consent of the owner/operator
> 2. Probably cause or knowledge of a violation has occurred or is occurring
> 3. Inspection permanently installed equipment, but only after permission to board has be requested and refused.


It seems like by all interpretations of the laws you have found the LEO overstepped their bounds when they hopped onboard without consent. In the Sheriff's response though he claims it is allowed.

This is just speculation on my part but post 911 things have changed, certain constitutional rights have been circumvented in the name of national security (think warrantless wire tapping). Most all lines of first defense (customs, TSA, CG, etc) fall under the Homeland Security Administration. Based on the sheriffs claim "it should be clearly understood that no provocation is required, or even permission needed, for law enforcement to board a craft for the purposes of conducting a lawful inspection" I am assuming there is a loophole for boarding a boat entering from offshore in the name of national security. After all this statement was made to tell their side of the story and cover their A$$. If they do not have the right to board at will then this statement puts them doubly at risk of consistently overstepping their powers.

So something along the lines of boarding to check if the vessel contains anyone on the "no fly list" or to see if there are any dirty bombs, and while we are here lets just check your MSD valves.

Irrelevant of the right to board without consent, it sounds like a stupid, dangerous way to go about enforcement. If police can have sobriety check points on land they should be able to extend that right to check the MSD on entry into ports. This threat alone should cause people to comply with proper sanitation with an actual possibility of enforcement.

For the record ffiill: If I got to carry a low slung machine gun to work, I would swagger.


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## merc2dogs (Jun 5, 2004)

It's hard to reach a conclusion without having been at the scene.
I have been around when police who were extremely enthusiastic about enforcement touched off escalating conditions.
I have also witnessed scenes where someone who 'Knows his rights' gets excited.

My view is that a LOT of stress in enforcement is that people simply don't see police in day to day conditions any more, the only time police interact with the public is in enforcement situations so they are viewed as opponents.

When I was a kid it was very common to see police officers walking around the neighborhood, talking to the kids, discussing whatever with the old guy raking leaves or someone mowing the lawn. It was good, it gave the police a face and personality that caused people to view them as 'good'. People are more willing to work with the police when they had a face, and many officers were regarded as friends.

Today,the police hide behind radar guns and cameras with no interaction in non-enforcement conditions, so if you see an officer you can be certain he's not there to drink coffee and talk about the weather, which puts people on the defensive from the start. If you are perceived by the majority as opponents, you will not get 'Oh hi, How are you" when you knock on the door. 
It doesn't matter how polite you are, if the only time you're seen is when interrupt someones afternoon you are NOT the friendly neighborhood policeman.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

midlifesailor said:


> I'm no big fan of LEO as I have personal experience of their overzealous activities, ,,,,, I can't blame the officer for reacting as alleged if the boater acted as alleged.


Well, the boater acting as alleged could not have occured if the officer hadn't before that first acted as alleged..so there should be no confusion that 100% of the responsibility for anything subsequent that might have happened, belongs to the officers who first acting as alleged alone sets the stage for whatever might happen after.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

The problem here is that those officers are not well trained in friendly boarding of vessels. Note the key word here is friendly.
Note: Poor training equals bad reactions and possible major injuries.
Have had USCG board my vessels out at sea, no problem because we both know what to expect from the other.
Had local LEOs board once. But I was having a heart episode and they confirmed my problem and expediated the ambulance to my vessel... It was too stormy for Life Flight that day.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I want to emphasize, again, that if I had not been on the receiving end of their heavy-handedness more than once, I would have dismissed this episode as a bad day for both sides. But the reality is that it is more the norm down here than the exception. It is not, and should not be, a 'us versus them' mentality. THe police officers are there for us as citizens and this over- zealous, opprtunistic, gun brazing, quota-meeters do nothing to protect us but instead act to make it, "... a reason kids grow up not trusting and hating police officers," as the sevety-year old man said to me after being pulled over with him in his rubber 10 foot Avon 20 yards from shore at 9am for a safety check (where he was wearing his life jacket in plain sight anyways). 

Look at the many respondents here. This is not an isolated episode. This is not about this captain. This is about a pattern that has taken hold in Florida - and that's too bad because it is a beautiful place to live and cruise.

And shall we also throw into the discussion what scienctific research has been done that a cruising vessel that pumps overboard is such a major EPA disaster that requires such extraordinary enforcement? or are we just low hanging fruit?

Brian


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

In this situation, "probably cause" would be a trail of "floaters". 
They still have to announce and the LEO should have called everyone on deck rather than going below.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

Law enforcement officers can't do their job effectively without the support of their community. That community support is won or lost by how the officers conduct themselves while doing their job.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Cruisingdad said:


> I posted a very long reply on AS with many of my very bad experiences with Florida there.
> 
> If I had not been the subject of many of their quota-meeters, I too would not have jumped in defense of this captain. But most of the cruisers I know feel just like what has been reported by this captain, myself, Vasco, Rich_h and Sailingfool.
> 
> ...


I was born and raised in Ft. Myers. If this is what things have come to, I'm very disappointed.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Brian,

As you suggested in an earlier post, I have been there -- and had no problems. Anecdotal evidence of even a couple of dozen cruisers doesn't validate sweeping statements that all of Florida has become a police state where all cruisers are going to get screwed.

One of the things that you've got that most of here don't is that you are now a resident of Lee County, and have a valid reason to start pressing the issue with your elected officials. Make a nuisance of yourself, and they may pay attention to you. You could probably get a lot of support from the local boating community, and as we've seen in recent elections grassroot movements are capable of influencing outcomes. If you can make a compelling case about the lost revenues to local business from a decline in cruiser traffic as a result of enthusiastic enforcement/harassment you may find some traction.

And yes, cruisers are the low hanging fruit that are very easy targets. THey are unlikely to defer their cruise schedules to stick around to contest their citations.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

I think the solution may be to keep an eye out for Johnny Law, and if you see one nearby, lock the hatch. If they want to have a look, just show me the warrant. They had no probable cause to stop the vessel for a valve check, and they had no probable cause to search the vessel until the "suspicious behavior" of one of the crew. Once one of them ran below, the LEO should have drawn his weapon but not pointed it and ordered the crew back on deck. This would have protected the officer in case the crew came up with a weapon, but fell well short of running below and pointing a weapon.

The real story is that the cop thought the guy was closing a valve (and he probably was) and thought it appropriate to draw and aim his weapon to stop him from doing so. This is by far overreaching of any reasonable action by the cop.

Isn't it enough that the guy shut the valve (a bit late, but it's still shut)? If you pull enough people over enough times, they'll start shutting the valve all by themselves. But then, that doesn't produce much revenue.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Cruisingdad said:


> ....
> And shall we also throw into the discussion what scienctific research has been done that a cruising vessel that pumps overboard is such a major EPA disaster that requires such extraordinary enforcement? or are we just low hanging fruit?
> 
> Brian


I've often heard investigators looking into a case say the best direction is ""just follow the money...".

I think the significant fee pad by the OP explains everything about this type of event, and that the pursuit of the money may lead to bending a few rules...


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

I have a penis, and penis' are used sometimes to commit rape. So by the same twisted logic enforced by the Volusia County sheriff's department I guess every time I pass through Volusia County .... it would be 'all right' for them to randomly stop me and swab my penis for a DNA sample. .... how about random 'body cavity' examinations, full body scanning, opening and checking all the 'spices' I carry to be sure no 'illicits' or other contraband are carried. 
It would be vastly better for Volusia County to put up a toll booth barrier on the AICW and have there stationed a 'honey bucket' which (mandatory) sucks all the poop out of your holding tank and at very minimal monetary charge - like they CHEERFULLY and POLITELY do in Monroe County / Boot Key, FL. 

Volusia County could then fire at least 12-20 deputies, sell their expensive hopped-up "pursuit boats" (seemingly always run at full wide open throttle including manatee zones) buy a 'scow' with the proper pooper-pumper and hire someone with native 'politeness and courtesy' at a bit more than minimum wage .... the result would be the same amount of poop in the water (1.0000000001 parts per trillion rather than 1.00000000000 parts per trillion of e. coli), better PR, less governmental cost of operation, etc., and most importantly, significantly reduce the odds of someone getting shot ... because a valve isnt 'secured'. 
Someone ultimately IS going to get shot in Volusia Country because of a valve left open because of the beyond-aggressive 'storm trooper tactics' used there. Most assuredly, this is not an IF but WHEN situation. Such a future inevitable fatal incident, and with all the prior LONG TERM KNOWLEDGE that this is and has been a dangerous situation ... is wholly and entirely indefensible and can possibly result in litigation, etc. exceeding the the total value of Volusia County ... because they KNEW about this 'dangerous situation' and did NOTHING to rectify it. 

Only in an authoritarian police state can one be arrested for the 'intent' to commit a very marginal misdemeanor crime because all the 'inane circumstantial evidence' adds up to the day's quota requirement of for-sake-of-increased-revenue 'busts'. 
If Volusia County REALLY wants lower fecal coliform counts in their waters, they can start by dumping dye into all the failing and overburdened septic systems on land .... AND stopping their sewage treatment plants from discharging INTO THE OCEAN so that the total fecal coliform count offshore from zillions of gallons of poop and marginally treated sewage pumped from this 'model government' into the gulfstream that spreads all the way from Volusia County to IRELAND is lower.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Don't sugar coat it, Rich -- tell us how you _really_ feel! 

It ain't just Monroe County with the courtesy pump-out; Lee County (Ft Myers Beach) has a sucker boat as well.

You alluded to one of the problems, though -- what gun-toting, self-agrandizing, combat-veteran-wannabe Sherrif's Deputy wants to tool around in a poop-barge when he can zip around in a three x 225hp outboard equipped fast response boat? I mean, even if they put lights and sirens on the poop barge, it's just not gonna be so downright sexy now is it?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

RichH said:


> I have a penis, and penis' are used sometimes to commit rape. So by the same twisted logic enforced by the Volusia County sheriff's department I guess every time I pass through Volusia County .... it would be 'all right' for them to randomly stop me and swab my penis for a DNA sample. .... how about random 'body cavity' examinations, full body scanning, opening and checking all the 'spices' I carry to be sure no 'illicits' or other contraband are carried.
> It would be vastly better for Volusia County to put up a toll booth barrier on the AICW and have there stationed a 'honey bucket' which (mandatory) sucks all the poop out of your holding tank and at very minimal monetary charge - like they CHEERFULLY and POLITELY do in Monroe County / Boot Key, FL.
> 
> Volusia County could then fire at least 12-20 deputies, sell their expensive hopped-up "pursuit boats" (seemingly always run at full wide open throttle including manatee zones) buy a 'scow' with the proper pooper-pumper and hire someone with native 'politeness and courtesy' at a bit more than minimum wage .... the result would be the same amount of poop in the water (1.0000000001 parts per trillion rather than 1.00000000000 parts per trillion of e. coli), better PR, less governmental cost of operation, etc., and most importantly, significantly reduce the odds of someone getting shot ... because a valve isnt 'secured'.
> ...


Rich - those with houses there have a vote and pay taxes directly to that county and as such are immune from the intent of such laws. The intent here is not to reduce the amount of waste pumped into 'their' ocean. It is not to uphold the laws of the county - passed by politicians without a shred of scientific analysis onto how best to help the environment and the impact of boaters. The intent is to make money. Because if the intent was to actually do something environmentally responsible about the waste, they would start with their own sewage treamtment and leaky septics which really does have a major impact. But you see - that costs money and stopping boats makes money. Never mind that even if every single boat that passed through (non commercial) dumped right into their waters, they probably would still have a problem finding an instrument to register its impact (and let us not forget, they did not get ticketed for DUMPING... they got ticketed for not having the Thull secured - whether it would work or not, whether it was closed or not, etc). And if the intent was to uphold their laws, then wouldn't it make more sense to have more patrol cars around schools or neighborhoods, etc where real crimes occur that really do hurt people and children?? Of course it would. But you cannot make money like that.

You make money by stopping the pass-through boaters/tourists who have no vote and do not directly put money into your tax base. You can be as nasty and tacky as you want and you can write tickets without concern that it can come back and bite your boss. I just hope they smile as they write the ticket - Welcome to Florida.

Brian


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

Hey Brian,
All well with you I hope.

You are the voice of reason. We have the 'wallopers' over here as well. Our state is broke so the boating and fisheries patrols dont seem to have the fuel to hit cruisers away from the beaten path. Customs fly overs keep a watch on all though - which is a good thing.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

St Anna said:


> Hey Brian,
> All well with you I hope.
> 
> You are the voice of reason. We have the 'wallopers' over here as well. Our state is broke so the boating and fisheries patrols dont seem to have the fuel to hit cruisers away from the beaten path. Customs fly overs keep a watch on all though - which is a good thing.


How are you!!! Whew.. this is a hot topic here. I will also say that I have never seen Rich H so angry!!!

Brian


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Brian,

You know I love you, don'tcha? I mean, I really do -- nobody (and I mean NOBODY) does a boat grill as proud as you.

But (you knew that was coming too, right?) you should consider what you're saying.



Cruisingdad said:


> Rich - those with houses there have a vote and pay taxes directly to that county and as such are immune from the intent of such laws. [Got any proof that the locals get off from being fined? I'd bet they get hit too, 'though probably not as aggressively or often.] The intent here is not to reduce the amount of waste pumped into 'their' ocean. It is not to uphold the laws of the county - passed by politicians without a shred of scientific analysis onto how best to help the environment and the impact of boaters. The intent is to make money. [I beg to differ -- I think if you look you'll find that the rules regarding MSD's weren't dreamed up by someone local as a means of increasing revenue, but nationally as a way to cut down on the amount of contamination in the water. Do the laws make perfect sense? Of course not. Does that make them any less real or enforceable? Nope.] Because if the intent was to actually do something environmentally responsible about the waste, they would start with their own sewage treamtment and leaky septics which really does have a major impact. But you see - that costs money and stopping boats makes money. Never mind that even if every single boat that passed through (non commercial) dumped right into their waters, they probably would still have a problem finding an instrument to register its impact (and let us not forget, they did not get ticketed for DUMPING... they got ticketed for not having the Thull secured - whether it would work or not, whether it was closed or not, etc). [I can just hear it next time you get ticketed -- "But officer, I know I was parked in front of that fire hydrant, but I didn't see it and I never intended to block access to it for the FD." Don't think that's gonna get you off.] And if the intent was to uphold their laws, then wouldn't it make more sense to have more patrol cars around schools or neighborhoods, etc where real crimes occur that really do hurt people and children?? Of course it would. But you cannot make money like that. [Could be that the Sherrif is counting on revenues from ticketing transients to fund stepped up land based patrol assets -- around those schools and neighborhoods. Those funds may also be earmarked for addressing the sewage system repair/upgrade -- who knows?]
> 
> You make money by stopping the pass-through boaters/tourists who have no vote and do not directly put money into your tax base. You can be as nasty and tacky as you want and you can write tickets without concern that it can come back and bite your boss. I just hope they smile as they write the ticket - Welcome to Florida.
> 
> Brian


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## birdpepper (Oct 20, 2010)

Hopefully this will get cruisers to stop pumping their waste into the waterways. The police were simply doing their job and it sounds like they were doing it effectively. Kudos to the local law enforcement for caring about their water and the health of their constituents.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I sail out of the Northport area of Long island Sound and yes there is a big push to clean up the sound and while there is and MSD push as there should be 

The BIG push is from the land based sources as you can pretty much walk across the boats in Northport and the water is FINE until it rains and the river runs down main street along with the open storm drain pipes that dump right into the harbor


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## birdpepper (Oct 20, 2010)

You must be a pump and dumper!


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Man, this thread could go "off" in so many ways. Guns on boats, jackbooted law enforcement. Municipal discharges v. boating public, etc. But the one thing that struck me pretty odd was the skipper in the story (somewhat proudly) proclaiming that only he knew the location and "off" position of the discharge thruhull. On an offshore cruise, am I the only guy who asks to know where the thuhulls are? And would you guys feel comfortable going offshore with a skipper who wouldn't tell you where they are located? How about electrical breakers, fire extinguishers, shut off valves, propane solenoids, and other safety gear, etc? No accommodation plan posted showing where these things are located?


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## birdpepper (Oct 20, 2010)

Exactly. This "skipper" should have been fined $25,000.00. Not $250.00.


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## Dfok (Apr 11, 2010)

*geez folks - maybe time for a deep breath all around*

I don't want anybody pooping in my pond. It seems there is evidence, logic and lots of technology to avoid that, at least among many sailors who really ought to have an eye out for the stuff they are sailing in and generally see a couple feet from the deck. Industrial size dumping from cruise ships and others simply to bolster the bottom line is a crime of a different order. Proportional offense calls for proportional response.
My read of the gist of this is some think local law enforcement people can use one behavior for everything from safety check to crime against humanity.
Seems they (we, I) think proportional response is appropriate and if the LEO is inappropriate they should be called on it. But Law Enforcement are the only ones with guns and power, so "calling them on it" is pretty much abstract.
Then there is the " agent provocateur" who will lob a grenade in to the mix - "YOU must be a pumper and dumper!" to add or ignite any remaining gas.
I am willing to bet most of us have pee-ed over the side AND spend too much time and effort trying to fish a plastic bag or Coke can out of our playground. Guess we are in the humanity between pumper, dumper and saint - a really big group.

The draw of the sea or the small part of it we may have while on our boat is a sense of freedom. Small boat captains may once in a while behave like the "CAPTAIN" but really know we can't order anyone to do anything unless they are playing the same game. Your kids will not walk the plank even if you yell and have a cutlass.
The Coast Guard for the most part are folks who joined to save lives and be around the water - they get it, they are in the same game. Even if it comes to genuine threat and firepower they seem to respect the lore of the sea. You'll be notified of boarding, called Captain, and if they have to shoot you they probably really didn't want to and you most likely deserved it. They will immediately dispatch choppers, planes, ships and doctors and probably save your life. I like to think they are old fashioned good guys.
Local law enforcement in many cases is like the rest of America; downsized, pay cut, lower standards - with middle management collecting the fees and fines and apologizing, obfuscating or stonewalling as necessary to keep their own boat afloat. Yahoos. Like everybody else except for the guns, sense of dress and sense of humor. They are pissed, they are scared and you are handy. Every day they are told to get the bad guys. WIhout bad guys they can't pay the mortgage like the rest of us. In reality there are not enough bad guys to go around. So we all have to pay, like a tax.
There is not much personal in this. If not an open valve it may be a light that works fine but is suddenly not working at all, an obscure paper out of order, a whistle that isn't loud enough, whatever. Fine or tax?
Years ago in Panama my friends and I expected and accepted corruption and drove around with a twenty dollar bill on the dashboard. It saved time, aggravation and was appreciated by both sides of the transaction.
For years Jimmy Buffett made small boat sailors dream of paradise in the banana republics. The magic of America has bought them here for all to enjoy. 
By no means do I suggest offering a bribe to anyone, but the expectation that law abiding citizens will pay fines whereas bad guys (in addition to being bad, maybe armed, and often hard to find) won't seems pretty obvious - given the choice who would you chase down?


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## birdpepper (Oct 20, 2010)

Rambling post. What is your point?


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## Dfok (Apr 11, 2010)

The point Birdpepper is that simpleminded responses such as "must be a dumper and pumper" ought to be called out as simpleminded. 
Am I rambling too much for you here?


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## birdpepper (Oct 20, 2010)

I see your point. You seem a bit up in arms which makes me think that you P&D.


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## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

Seriously, the para-military "poddy police" executing tactical boat boardings?

:laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher


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## ffiill (Jul 15, 2010)

What really suprises me is that in a country that values personal freedom including the right to carry arms that you are so overloaded with leglislation governing leisure boating.
Not that I am averse to pollution controls but when US multi nationals(yes and US and British oil companies) are noted for their behaviour world wide in dumping waste wherever they feel like it I do not believe that leisure boating represents a big pollution problem worlwide.
You do therefore appear to have some pretty draconian measures in place.
Here in UK privately owned boats not used for comercial purposes do not have to be registered;carry any safety equipment;lifejackest etc etc.
Basically its left up to common sense which usually prevails.Where it doesnt leglislation or otherwise in my opinion has little real effect.
I have seen "rat arsed" people in charge of hire boats on the Caledonian Canal where all the leglislation -drunk in charge;life jackets etc does apply yet they are so drunk they can hardly stand up.A few years ago I heard of such a visitor who was luckily so aneathatised that when the mooring warp he was holding whist locking through a canal lock amputated three fingers he didnt feel a thing.
Customs and Excise/coastguards boarding you on suspicion of smuggling is a different matter.Even over here in UK they travel fully armed as they always have done so you do not argue.


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

Cruisingdad said:


> How are you!!! Whew.. this is a hot topic here. I will also say that I have never seen Rich H so angry!!!
> 
> Brian


Well enough - hating the life on land as you will when you swallow the anchor next!

Well, Brian - no wonder its a hot topic again. --> pull a gun on someone and a lot of negotiation has been bypassed! I wont go further on this. [except in a pm]

Keep your chin next to your chest and give em the old 1, 2

cheers mate


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

HeartsContent said:


> Seriously, the para-military "poddy police" executing tactical boat boardings?
> 
> :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher


It's no laughing matter, but the way it is. Sully from stuffers was motoring north on the ICW in Florida. The next thing he knew there was potty police climbing over the back of the boat. He got his $250 fine, and was sent on his way. He never knew they were there until they were climbing on the boat.

I personally was stopped entering Miami. I was dead in the water when they stopped behind me. Next thing I knew they were full throttle coming at me, and slammed my boat. The 4 members came over the life lines like they were on an assault mission. We were only 2, and standing in the corner of the cockpit as requested in plain sight. They could've come aboard by either sugar scoop with steps after gently nudging my vessel.

As typed before. It seems there is a new attitude of US VS. THEM, and we are the THEM. Did you read another example I witnessed on post #43. I mean really what's with the helicopter hanging over a boat in it's slip for more than an hour with a scarab boat full of police tied across it's stern. You think that wasn't practice of military action? All because someone called the authorities to say the owner smokes pot? I think one squad car, and 2 cops could've handled the job. How fast can a 33ft. cruising boat escape on a river?.........*i2f*


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

Dfok...
Your #67 is well said!!!
Paul


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

I'm pretty familiar with Volusia county particularly New Smyrna Beach. It is the home of some pretty hard core environmentalist whackos. The locals have seen there is money to be made from these transplants. Case in point, local government exacted $50,000 from my son-in-laws condo project to move some turtle nests nearby even though he had permits from the state and EPA that didn't require it. Don't even think about having a light on the beach side of your home or condo in New Smyrna at certain times of the year. The dumb ass turtles might think it is the moon and come ashore to nest. Of course this supercedes the lighted exit signs requirement for safety of the workers mandated by the building codes. The fines for having an outside light beachside are pretty stiff.

If the Volusia County sheriff is boarding boats for holding tank inspections without cause then it is only for revenue. Pure and simple. It would be akin to the local sheriff stopping you on the highway to see if your car would pass an emission check. 

I am all for clean air and water but come on, the St. Johns River in this area flows pretty well back int o the Atlantic. The oyster industry in this area has been destroyed by municipal and industrial waste. If only New Smyrna and Volusia county paid as much attention to their own waste water treatment. They don't have squeaky clean record in this area.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

PorFin said:


> Brian,
> 
> You know I love you, don'tcha? I mean, I really do -- nobody (and I mean NOBODY) does a boat grill as proud as you.
> 
> But (you knew that was coming too, right?) you should consider what you're saying.


PF,

The first part was totally tongue in cheek, but I still stand by what I said that if their intention was to really make a measurable impact on the quality of their waters, it would start on their own waste management landside. There are much more meaningful ways to accomplish it - but those ways COST money versus this way makes money. We are easy targets.

And please show me the scientific study done that compares boaters impact on the waterways (dumping illegally) to what is legally pumped via the city. The last one I saw was that the cities were vastly the overpolluters. It was not even in the same ballpark. And remember, these boaters are not being fined for dumping. They may not even use their heads - does not matter, They are not even being fined for their Thulls being open. THey are being fined for the Thulls not being secured closed. Can't you see the difference and the hypocrisy?

I do NOT, in any way, condone pumping in their waterways. I don't. In fact, I do not have a Y valve on my boat as many new boats do not. We have to go into a holding tank first. At my marina, they also measure your pumps out and are required to report it. SO this is not about me condoning pumping into the waterways or wanting to. That is not my point. It is about the methods and reasoning for the law and why they seem so interested in upholding this one where their efforts could be so much more productive in other areas. And the manner in which they do it is absurd. And this also is not about the potty police. This is about the law enforcement of this state being very heavy handed in things that involve heads, and those things that do not.

I understand you spent some time in Boot Key (I am actually heading back down there hopefully in a week or so) and you have not been stopped and had no issues. That is great. However, please read the many respondents here that are long time residents, cruisers and LA's that have been stopped and heavy handed. On our docks, it is a real frustration and issue.

The whole draconian measures stink as I think they are losing the faith of many of the law abiding people that they are supposed to protect. The greater question is whether they care?? And if they don't care anymore, then where are we headed as a state/nation?

Just a thought. But it won't stop me from cruising. It is just another dissapointment in how it is, versus how it could be.

Brian


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

After I've put much thought into it (about 2 minutes). The Potty police are on a fishing expedition. And in most courts that is considered illegal (IMHO).. They had no reason to board but for that in hopes that you have valves either unsecured or the over board in use. Especially when you are displaying the USCG and/or the USCGAux inspection stickers. If you have those up to date stickers displayed in plain sight then it is just a fishing expedition in order to gardner fines for their coffers. Fight it in court if you can.

Any Lawyers out there who want to give their take on this??


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

birdpepper said:


> Rambling post. What is your point?


Birdpepper,

You are on a RAZOR thin line with me. I have found your posts give me a whiplash as quickly as you change your mind and justrify your intentions. You have alienated more than one senior member here and have done so in record time and without remorse.

If you have ANY interst in keeping this site available as a source of information for your supposed cruise to the Bahamas, then I highly suggest that you be extremely careful of what you say and how you say it. Otherwise, I will kick you out of here permanently and block your IP from even viewing this site.

I hope that is crystal clear? There is no second warning.

Brian


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)




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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

This coming from a daysailor...

It appears some locales are making it obvious you're not welcome in their jurisdiction. Why not vote with your wallets and go elsewhere?


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Florida is a mess, and that's for sure when it comes to boaters. Slowly, but surely things are being corrected. The saving grace of Florida is how close it is to paradise, the Bahamas.

As in any job you will find buttheads. I will freely type that the other half of my exposure to law enforcemrnt on the water. It has been a pleasant experience, and people just doing their jobs.

Hey CD,

I love it when some one bunches up your choanies.:laugher  .....hehehehehhehe. get better.........*i2f*


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Like I2F, I too have had some wonderful experiences. I do not mean to paint everyone as bad. In fact, we had the law enforcement come out and do a thing for the boy scouts that was way above and beyond. The sad part is that I there are probably just a few GI Joe's running around with a gun and a bad attitutde that are really screwing it up for everyone else. Probably stems down from a Sherrif that has an axe to grind and a department to pay for. But that is just supposition.

Brian


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## RobCross (Aug 31, 2010)

Well as you know with other things 90% of them are probably great stand up guys, but the 10% that are, just say gung ho, give a bad reputation for them all. And with normal sheriff offices those 10% will be backed wholeheartedly unless someone has a ton of evidence of any misdeeds.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

45 minute video about how to exercise your 4th amendment rights. Obviously if a cop points a gun at you, your 4th amendment rights go out the window. It may help you get any fines or charges dropped though.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

The only thing I see done wrong by the LEO is the boarding method, in that it was done without consent. The Sheriff defends this boarding method as his right in the response to this incident, so I assume they are done at his request as a matter of departmental policy.

I'm thinking this should be referred to the ACLU or the Fla Attorney General. If the Sheriff claims to have the right to board the boat without consent and even put that right in writing, he should be called upon to defend the actions of his department.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Just did a 4th amendment search and found a Wiki article and there is a list of exceptions for needing probable cause. Road blocks for

Public Safety (DUI)
Bomb threats
Fleeing 
Borders and Ports of Entry

Searches conducted at the United States border or the equivalent of the border (such as an international airport) may be conducted without a warrant or probable cause subject to the "border-search" exception.[68] Most border searches may be conducted entirely at random, without any level of suspicion, pursuant to U.S. Customs and Border Protection plenary search authority. However, searches that intrude upon a traveler's personal dignity and privacy interests, such as strip and body cavity searches, must be supported by "reasonable suspicion."[69] The U.S. Courts of AppealsFourth and Ninth circuits have ruled that information on a traveler's electronic materials, including personal files on a laptop computer, may be searched at random, without suspicion. for the [70]
 
So the Probable cause is thrown out for a port of entry but the need to ask for consent is still there from what I have found.


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## ottos (Aug 12, 2008)

My musings - for what little they are worth....

Normally I am 99 % behind LEOs. The other 1% I'm getting a speeding ticket.

The LEOs did appear to have cause if indeed the crew was ordered to stand fast and one sticks his head down the companionway. BUT there are too many similar boarding stories...this is their SOP.

Someone suggested voting with your wallets... I say vote with your pens and many wallets. That is, some author in this group having experienced the boarding, draft an article for submission to a variety of sailing and travel magazines. Before submitting it, send it off to the various tourist commissions, marinas, and other businesses that you would hope to impact. They will have much more pull than individual sailors.

YMMV


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

jephotog said:


> Just did a 4th amendment search and found a Wiki article and there is a list of exceptions for needing probable cause. Road blocks for
> 
> Public Safety (DUI)
> Bomb threats
> ...


The purpose for border searches is to intercept contraband coming into the country and it's my recollection from past training is that LEO has to show that there was nexus with the border. This was a potty search and if they're using the border exception to get on board, then we have a pre-text search, which is unconstitutional in some states.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Not taking sides, as I don't think we have heard 100% from both. There is no such thing as a safe inquiry when it comes to people. Some of the world’s most dangerous criminals have been caught when a benign search or inquiry has been conducted, such as a random breath test or a licence/rego check. As this event was described, I would call this over the top and the cop involved need a good slap. As far as bad apples in the barrel being given a number of 10% I don’t believe this but agree they are there, but maybe 1% or less.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

I think most of you are missing the real point. This is an obvious & clear legal extortion of $$$$$ for 'revenue purposes'. 

This situation in Volusia County has nothing to do with 'potties'. Most Florida municipal jurisdictions are reportedly always receiving non-conformance citations to EPA regs. on their sewage and sewer systems, etc. 
Ask yourself, How is putting a 10¢ tie wrap going to prevent ANYTHING? All one has to do is cut the tie wrap, dump secretly, reinstall another 10¢ tie wrap, etc.???? If Volusia County was HONEST and had INTEGRITY they could simply fire the waterway THUGS, install convenient and economical municipal owned and operated PUMP OUTS (and/or pump-out boats) at their borders, could even be a self service station --- but could make it mandatory that all transient boats coming into Volusia stop and pump. Would be a hell of a lot cheaper than the salaries of the 15-20 uniformed waterway-thugs, the cost of their high powered 'pursuit boats' (always run at wide open throttle, even in 'manatee zones', etc. ) AND there would be no boater turds choking the waterways (which there are not) .... because its easy and convenient to do so. 
Also, If this illogical and quite US unconstitutional Florida Law was valid, then the progression would be that all males in FLORIDA (residents and non-residents should be required to have tie-wraps on their penis' to prevent rape, etc. 

Nope, especially now in these times of 'economic depression' you can bet your bippy that ALL this and all the escalating country-wide aggressive enforcement of most laws is nothing more that an increased potential revenue source for these cash strapped municipalities .... nothing more, nothing less. 

BTW Marathon/Boot Key FL in Monroe County ... has 'mandatory pump out boats' ... convenient, friendly, etc. and there are NO TURDS in Boot key Harbor. Boaters flock to Boot Key and the area gets the economic reward. Nobody stops or should stop in Volusia County unless they want to subject themselves to a possible fatal conflict with a waterway thug looking to make a $$$ bust. 

Simply STAY OUT OF VOLUSIA COUNTY FLORIDA .... they only want your money, think you are a 'target' or 'prey species' In Volusia Country Florida transient boaters are simply the 'prey species' du jur. 

Citizens are now simply a 'prey species' for (broke) governments .... and the LEOs that they have employed are ever increasingly becoming NOTHING MORE than LEGAL THUGS. 
FOLLOW THE MONEY. ITS ALL ABOUT $$$$$$ and NOT ABOUT 'POTTIES'.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

It is a pity that Volusia County has been employing such hard-line and disrespectful tactics for catching dumpers. At the end of the day, it is true that revenue is the real goal. I feel sorry for the men who don a uniform and tarnish it by these types of actions. Perception is often times reality, and the perception seems to be that going to Volusia County in a boat is not a good idea. This will undoubtedly take away revenue in the end.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

It's not just boaters that are suffering in Fla.



> As many as 14 armed Orange County deputies, including narcotics agents, stormed Strictly Skillz barbershop &#8230; handcuffing barbers &#8230;
> It was just one of a series of unprecedented raid-style inspections the Orange County Sheriff's Office recently conducted with a state regulating agency, targeting several predominantly black- and Hispanic-owned barbershops &#8230; deputies arrested 37 people - the majority charged with "barbering without a license"


Read more: The Haircut Police « John Stossel

All this while murder rates are up 45% in Orange County Florida. Unfortunately catching murderers costs money. Harassing honest people pays the bills.


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## sterilecuckoo58 (Aug 4, 2010)

A new form of southern hospitality?

I suppose, for revenue enhancement, if you can't get them for speeding, you might as well get them for pooping, whether or not the Y valve is locked. I suspect I'll alter my arm chair cruising plans and just bypass Florida. No need to include aggressive boardings in my daydreams. 

Who knows what reaction I'd get with my 1970 straight shot head. (While we've installed a metal link to lock down the lever, and have a Portapotti for No Discharge needs, I am sure this Sheriffs Dept would find fault.) I am thinking about upgrading

Drawing of weapon is certainly intimidating but they get drawn for routine traffic stops, after all, and you never know who might be running that Gulfstar 50 and what cargo they might be carrying.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Dfok said:


> Seems to me since 9/11 we've had a general militarization of our police forces and some officers have taken it as license to do whatever they want; probable cause can be figured out later.
> In my wildest imagination I would never have thought of city and local police in the US dressing in black, covering their faces with balaclava, brandishing automatic assault weapons and forcing citizens into and out of motor vehicles, homes, businesses, public places - pretty much anywhere they want all in the name of "you can't be too careful".
> You can, we are, and bad stuff still happens.
> Somewhere along the line part of the uniform became a shaved head, wrap around sunglasses, leather gloves to avoid touching the public and an "us versus them" attitude that departments and older officers either didn't or couldn't stop.


Since 9/11? Where have you been? This has been going on _far_ longer than since 9/11. This has been going on for decades, slowly incrementing in frequency and violence, in the name of The War On Some Drugs. Black-clothed law-enforcement officers, including black stocking caps and complete with helmets eerily reminiscent of WWII German Sturmtruppen, have been executing so-called "no-knock" or "dynamic entry" raids for some time, now.

Many of us have been sounding the alarm over these tactics for years and years, but nobody wanted to listen. I guess their thinking being "Well, if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear." Unfortunately, that's turned out not to be the case. Sometimes, far more frequently than you'd believe, law enforcement either gets the wrong house or the "tip" is completely bogus, and completely innocent people are terrorized. Can you imagine being blasted out of a sound sleep at 3 o'clock in the morning by cops dressed in black from head-to-foot, wielding automatic weapons, as they come smashing thru your doors, and barging through your home, regardless of any property damage they might incur along the way? And if you should have a dog that heroically tries to do what any good dog would in such a case, it'll probably be put down on the spot.

Now we can add The War On Terror as another excuse for such tactics.

And what do you suppose might happen if the homeowners have prudently armed and trained themselves? We have a problem with illegal home invasion in the U.S. (This is as compared to legal home invasion.) It's happened. The cops got a wrong address _and_ failed to properly identify themselves in a timely fashion. The prepared homeowner shot (and killed, IIRC) a police officer. They charged him. When it went to court he ultimately prevailed, but it never should've happened in the first place!

Btw: Now criminals have a new trick: On an illegal home invasion, they yell "POLICE!" What's a law-abiding homeowner to do *now*? Pray, I guess. (If that's still legal.)

So now law enforcement "dynamic entry" practices and methods are being applied to boats that "may be" dumping... because they're boats and they're in the water?!?!

How much further are we, as a people, going to tolerate this kind of thing from our government, I wonder?

Jim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

billyruffn said:


> We'll need a lawyer to explain the law surrounding probably cause, but a quick look at Wikipedia (I know...it's not the best source but it's quick and this discussion is among friends) provides the following:
> 
> 
> > The best-known definition of probable cause is "a reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime".[2] Another common definition is "a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true".[3]


Actually, the generally accepted requirement is "reasonable and articulable suspicion" (RAS).



billyruffn said:


> Now this leaves me wondering how the Volusia country sheriffs justified jumping over the lifelines unannounced. What was the indication that a crime was being committed, or was about to be committed? How was "a reasonable amount of suspicion" generated by these boaters?


IANAL, nor do I play one on TV or the Internet, but the same question occurred to me, and in my layman's eyes it looks to me like these guys are inviting lawsuits, and possibly even criminal charges of civil rights violations. Something right up the ACLU's alley?

Jim


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Hate to dredge up a thread on this topic...but I just thought of an innovative approach to warn fellow cruisers of this type of jack-booted thuggish behavior by Law Enforcement.

I have now dropped a "Local Hazard" marker in ActiveCaptain on the Atlantic ICW by New Smyrna and Mosquito Lagoon advising of the Cruisers Net article that broke the news on this behavior by Volusia County Law Enforcement. Not a new sandbar or sunken vessel, but this "hazard" certainly has the potential to ruin your day of cruising...warranting the tag IMHO.

On a more personal note...I've also cancelled my annual timeshare booking on Smyrna as well as indefinitely postponed a trip to Daytona in an RV. This type of Gestapo tactic, no matter how oft-debated, has no place in a civil democratic society. Especially not against cruisers in transit...these boats are our home for God's sake.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

nightowl,

Hopefully you wrote the chamber of commerce with your reasoning. It won't matter unless they know.........*i2f*


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

night0wl said:


> Hate to dredge up a thread on this topic...but I just thought of an innovative approach to warn fellow cruisers of this type of jack-booted thuggish behavior by Law Enforcement.
> 
> I have now dropped a "Local Hazard" marker in ActiveCaptain on the Atlantic ICW by New Smyrna and Mosquito Lagoon advising of the Cruisers Net article that broke the news on this behavior by Volusia County Law Enforcement. Not a new sandbar or sunken vessel, but this "hazard" certainly has the potential to ruin your day of cruising...warranting the tag IMHO.
> 
> On a more personal note...I've also cancelled my annual timeshare booking on Smyrna as well as indefinitely postponed a trip to Daytona in an RV. This type of Gestapo tactic, no matter how oft-debated, has no place in a civil democratic society. Especially not against cruisers in transit...these boats are our home for God's sake.


As I2F says, be sure to let the policy makers themselves know, they are the only ones that are going to change this approach, because they asked for this approach. The Chamber is not the policy maker, but may be equally motivated to lobby them.

I hope you posted your warning from personal experience and not the rantings of an internet blog. I didn't see you weigh in above. The later will get zero credibility with officials.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sully from stuffers is jack-booted thug himself and probably deserved it...He's also a lying, unethical, sack of $h1t. If you want to know why I say this, read this and this.



imagine2frolic said:


> It's no laughing matter, but the way it is.
> Sully from stuffers was motoring north on the ICW in Florida. The next thing he knew there was potty police climbing over the back of the boat. He got his $250 fine, and was sent on his way. He never knew they were there until they were climbing on the boat.
> 
> I personally was stopped entering Miami. I was dead in the water when they stopped behind me. Next thing I knew they were full throttle coming at me, and slammed my boat. The 4 members came over the life lines like they were on an assault mission. We were only 2, and standing in the corner of the cockpit as requested in plain sight. They could've come aboard by either sugar scoop with steps after gently nudging my vessel.
> ...


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## HDChopper (Oct 17, 2010)

Well done Webmaster SD ........... to bad the prescient was set with a boofer now ther is fair reason ;(


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Sully from stuffers is jack-booted thug himself and probably deserved it...He's also a lying, unethical, sack of $h1t. If you want to know why I say this, read this and this.


I'm missing the relevance of this post to this thread???
Paul


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

AE28 said:


> I'm missing the relevance of this post to this thread???
> Paul


People of questionable character (read where SD was threatened with a baseball bat by this guy) being treated aggressively while the police are executing their mission is very different than the way many have painted this picture.


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> ... (read where SD was threatened with a baseball bat by this guy) ...


Old stuff!


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Maybe there's another possibility that no one has posted about or thought of... I don't know, but I'm not going to read through 4 pages of anti-this and that ranting. 

A boat tooling up and down the ICW would make a great rolling meth lab, and who knows, maybe that's what they're looking for. Gulf Star 50, 2 guys topside, one moves toward the cabin, then there's a clatter of drawers, stove operation, etc.... Having not been there, I have no idea about the general 'tone' of the initial boarding. None of us where there, so it's pretty impossible to do any more than arm chair quarter back.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

AE28 said:


> Old stuff!


Still seems relevant to the conversation. Police acting aggressively in response to someone who may have acted like a real putz, is much more understandable anyway.

To read some of these posts, you would believe they were pushing innocent old ladies to the ground and stealing their social security checks to fund the Third Reich.

So far, I find both sides of the story to be suspicious. Those that claim to have been offended tell less than straight forward stories and it wouldn't surprise me if some local elected official does think this is a good way to raise fine revenue.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Still seems relevant to the conversation. Police acting aggressively in response to someone who may have acted like a real putz, is much more understandable anyway.
> 
> To read some of these posts, you would believe they were pushing innocent old ladies to the ground and stealing their social security checks to fund the Third Reich.
> 
> So far, I find both sides of the story to be suspicious. Those that claim to have been offended tell less than straight forward stories and it wouldn't surprise me if some local elected official does think this is a good way to raise fine revenue.


Way I see it, there is absolutely NO excuse for an unrequested boarding with weapons drawn short of a drug raid with a warrant. Then to dye the tanks on top of that is just over the top. This was a revenue grab.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

night0wl said:


> Way I see it, there is absolutely NO excuse for an unrequested boarding with weapons drawn short of a drug raid with a warrant. Then to dye the tanks on top of that is just over the top. This was a revenue grab.


That's your prerogative, but....... _methinks thou dost protest too much_ ?!

I think there can be some valid excuses (your word) beyond a drug raid. Those circumstances should require some reasonable expectation to have to defend themselves. A person below decks and hasn't complied with a request to surface would qualify, IMHO.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Minewaska, have you had any formal firearms training?

"there is absolutely NO excuse for an unrequested boarding with weapons drawn short of a drug raid with a warrant. "

The usual advice about firearms is that YOU DON'T DRAW IT UNLESS YOU PLAN TO USE IT and if you follow that advice, you are less likely to have an expensive and embarassing unjustifiable shooting.

Honest, find your local PD's safety or training officer, ask them what the official policy is about drawing a weapon.

Now, if there's no want or warrant out for _that boat_, no direct observation of some criminal activity, there's no reason to draw weapons for a vessel safety check, is there? And as more than one cop has found out the hard way, if you surprise someone with your weapon drawn--you're likely to get shot if they can grab one first.

Those are just _dumb _cops, giving all the honest and professional ones a bad name.

If you're afraid of who or what might be below, you stop with the man on deck and say "Call your crew topside, now." And you don't draw and go below until you've been assured everyone is on deck--so you KNOW there are no innocents below.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Minnewaska -
.... you mention the THIRD REICH. I submit with your constant non-objective 'slant' on this issue that you would be perfectly happy living in the THIRD REICH or some other authoritarian state that constantly brushes-aside the 'rules' for the purpose of 'control'. and yes, some of my family were nazis and others suffered under the nazis .... nazi's like what I and others aboard my vessel personally observed and experienced and will testify such from my/our experience on the ICW with the Volusia County Sheriff's Department ... openly brandishing side arms, gross intimidation, etc. etc. etc. etc. ....
simply 'get over it' as your lopsided conjectural milquetoast whining isnt going to change anything. 
The watercops in Volusia County are LEGAL THUGS and if in any 'honest' jurisdiction would most probably spend 'pokey time' for their actions.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> Minewaska, have you had any formal firearms training?
> 
> "there is absolutely NO excuse for an unrequested boarding with weapons drawn short of a drug raid with a warrant. "
> 
> ...


In fact, I do have formal firearms training, courtesy of Uncle Sam. However, I am not an LEO.

I don't see how your rant contradicts my post at all. I did not defend coming aboard with weapons drawn unprovoked.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

RichH said:


> Minnewaska -
> .... you mention the THIRD REICH. I submit with your constant non-objective 'slant' on this issue that you would be perfectly happy living in the THIRD REICH or some other authoritarian state that constantly brushes-aside the 'rules' for the purpose of 'control'. and yes, some of my family were nazis and others suffered under the nazis .... nazi's like what I and others aboard my vessel personally observed and experienced and will testify such from my/our experience on the ICW with the Volusia County Sheriff's Department ... openly brandishing side arms, gross intimidation, etc. etc. etc. etc. ....
> simply 'get over it' as your lopsided conjectural milquetoast whining isnt going to change anything.
> The watercops in Volusia County are LEGAL THUGS and if in any 'honest' jurisdiction would most probably spend 'pokey time' for their actions.


Oh pleeeeeeease..... I've offered a different point of view than yours. I assume your freedom fighting agenda allows for that? My Third Reich comment was clearly hyperbole.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

.... so is the content of most of your posts on this issue.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

SD,

Your diifferences with Sully make no point here. He may, or may not have done what you claim. I typed it before, and I will type it again. Hiring a lawyer against his claims would've brought it to an end in a legal way. Did you do that?

Personally I would have posted his note to you publicly, and given him my home address, and asked him to stop by anytime day, or night publicly. Never bring a baseball bat to....well you know:laugher  !

If he is, or isn't a jackboot thug. Makes no difference in the Valousia goons coming over his stern..........*i2f*


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I2F-

The e-mail address is one that Sean Sullivan used when listing his boat for sale. There is no disputing that fact. The IP address on the e-mail was traced back to his cellular phone ISP.

I reported Sean to the local police, the FBI and the Internet Crime Center. I have the case file numbers.

*Anyone who is willing to threaten people with physical harm after committing egregious violations of privacy, accused innocent people of posting child pornography, etc., is a threat to society and a thug. I would not be surprised if the idiot did something that warranted such a response from police. *

If Sean Sullivan didn't do those things and I didn't have evidence to PROVE IT WAS HIM, why didn't Sean Sullivan sue me for libel/slander/defamation. Simple... he knows that he actually did what I stated he did and that I have truth as a defense against any such action.

*I'd also take anything he says with a very large chunk of salt, since he has A PROVEN TRACK RECORD OF LYING TO PUT HIMSELF IN THE BEST POSSIBLE LIGHT. *


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

I take everything anybody says with a large chunk of salt. I am no longer at stuffers because, of Sean himself. Still I do believe the goons came over the stern. Because I believe this one act does not make him a star citizen in my eyes. I save that spot for you ...did you notice the wink? Just funning with you..............i2f


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> I2F-
> 
> The e-mail address is one that Sean Sullivan used when listing his boat for sale. There is no disputing that fact. The IP address on the e-mail was traced back to his cellular phone ISP.
> 
> ...


I'm missing the relevance of this post to this thread!!!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

AE28 said:


> I'm missing the relevance of this post to this thread!!!


Again?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

imagine2frolic said:


> I take everything anybody says with a large chunk of salt. I am no longer at stuffers because, of Sean himself. Still I do believe the goons came over the stern. Because I believe this one act does not make him a star citizen in my eyes. I save that spot for you ...did you notice the wink? Just funning with you..............i2f


saw that...


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Just a note...the Local Hazard has been deleted from Active Captain by Management. Had a productive email conversation with Jeff from over there. 

A bit bummed because I feel like its erring too far on the side of caution and verification EVERY source and every fact for a site that has more than enough editorial involved...especially cosidering Southwinds, Lattitude 38 and others felt there were enough legs to this story to put into PRINT! 

But I digress...perhaps there's some aspect of liability involved. So I'll just back off.

That being said...wrt Volusia? I certainly am not planning on transitioning up that way anytime soon even though I used to like the area quite a bit. Nor are my tourist dollars going that way. I will make it a point not to fill up gas or frequent any business in Volusia either on my travels up/down I-95.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

At the unintended risk of getting everyone all flamed up again, is there any reference to this issue in a newspaper or lawsuit or anything other than a sailing blog? I tried to search.

Volusia County has a half million residents. Communities that large usually love to beat up their local officials, so I would expect something.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

As a former Volusia County Sheriffs Deputy my self and have had experience with a US Coast Guard boarding while cruizing I find the situation explained a bit disturbing.. I sent this story to a friend who's still working for the County of Volusia...


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

aa3jy,

The incident I described with the go fast boat, helicopter, and numerous squad cars for a boat tied to the dock was in Clay County at Reynolds Park Yacht Center. All over a couple of joints of pot.......*i2f*


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

With all due respect, i2f, if there was a tip that there was an illegal substance onboard and there actually was, I don't think that is making the case against aggressive weapons drawn boardings to inspect holding tanks. They are quite different.

For a holding tank violation, the worst outcome is a fine. For a drug arrest, the worst outcome is jail, so one might expect the later to be more confrontational. I certainly understand the over reaction you describe, but if they were operating with a tip that this was a more significant drug dealer, I don't think I would just wander in unprepared either. 

If your point is that a couple of joints of pot should not be a crime, you have to fault the lawmakers that wrote the laws like this. The police are expected to enforce them as written. That same principal applies to their right to board your boat when they please. For those about to flame on, please separate the reportedly inappropriate method they've used from the right they have to come aboard in the first place.

All this anger and frustration should be focused at those that wrote the laws this way.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Well said. Part of the problem is that too much of the law written today is not designed to be flexible. The idea of zero tolerance is pretty stupid in many ways, since different situations often SHOULD be handled in different ways. *For instance, there's the grandmother who got put on the terrorist watch list for accidentally trying to carry a butter knife onto an airplane.* Yes, a 57-year-old grandmother is definitely a terrorist... WTF.



> All this anger and frustration should be focused at those that wrote the laws this way.


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Again?


Still!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

AE28 said:


> Still!


The alleged victim has a propensity to be a jerk, mouth off and exaggerate. That discredits the victim's claim that the police were aggressive without provocation.

Perhaps you're making a different point, but it seem pretty clear why SD is offering this point within this discussion.


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> The alleged victim has a propensity to be a jerk, mouth off and exaggerate. That discredits the victim's claim that the police were aggressive without provocation.
> 
> Perhaps you're making a different point, but it seem pretty clear why SD is offering this point within this discussion.


Maybe that's where I'm missing the boat (no pun intended)!!!

Is the "alleged victim" the guy in the original post, or was he introduced in a subsequent post in this thread?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

AE28 said:


> Maybe that's where I'm missing the boat (no pun intended)!!!
> 
> Is the "alleged victim" the guy in the original post, or was he introduced in a subsequent post in this thread?


i2f, introduced this victim as another example in post #74.


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## Rschattman (Dec 6, 2010)

*Clearly there is a better way*

As I read the initial story, and then the responses, it is clear that the police created the circumstances that escalated the situation. There is a responsibility on the part of the police as the boarding party to accomplish their responsibilities in a manner that is safe, efficient and effective. The unannounced boarding, while legal, may have set the defensive posture of the crew in motion.... mistake number 1. The pulling of the gun was also premature by any standard and contributed to an escalation. The issuance of a ticket was also unnecessary in all ways other than to justify the other actions that were out of proportion to the situation. The manner in which the police proceeded put all at greater risk and danger - including themselves. Poor quality police work!


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> With all due respect, i2f, if there was a tip that there was an illegal substance onboard and there actually was, I don't think that is making the case against aggressive weapons drawn boardings to inspect holding tanks. They are quite different.
> 
> For a holding tank violation, the worst outcome is a fine. For a drug arrest, the worst outcome is jail, so one might expect the later to be more confrontational. I certainly understand the over reaction you describe, but if they were operating with a tip that this was a more significant drug dealer, I don't think I would just wander in unprepared either.
> 
> ...


Actually the worst outcome if weapons are drawn can be DEATH! If pulling the trigger was an acident or on purpose. And there are no reasons for a weapon to be drawn if you are on patrol checking to see if the honey locker is in use or not.


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> i2f, introduced this victim as another example in post #74.


THANKS - now I'm back on track.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

"IF" the police boarded the boat, unannounced, unprovoked, with weapons drawn, it was totally inappropriate and culpable. The question is whether we know enough about what actually happened.

"IF" they boarded first, asked for everyone to come above deck, were given lip and someone below was rummaging around and refusing to come out, that is very different. They may have boarded for a honey locker inspection, but would have no idea what they might have stumbled upon.

Many LEOs have been shot after pulling someone over for speeding.

The point is, we don't really know all the facts. The OPs rendition has some overselling in it, which makes me suspicious. The second vicitim has been documented as a real hot head, which makes me suspicious. The fact that southern LEOs have the reputation of harassing out of state residents, has me suspicious. The fact that there are environmental activists that are probably giggling at our outrage, has me suspicious. The fact that municipalities need the money, has me suspicious.

The whole thing stinks. Hey, good pun?


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## HDChopper (Oct 17, 2010)

Well put Minnewaska ....


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## ffiill (Jul 15, 2010)

Surely in a country where LEOs carry weapons you can expect them to make use of them.Particularly in a state noted for its conservative right wing politics!
Even over here I once got pulled over by heavily armed Customs Officers who boarded me at speed from a RIB
Whats the problem-or is it because you are like me white male middle class caucasian? and it doesnt happen to us.
I say this because my brothers partner happens to be ex pat male Cuban who was brought up in Florida and despite his families high status in Florida is often pulled over at gun point for minor traffic violations! because he looks Cuban;Mexican call it what you will!


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## witzgall (Jan 9, 2007)

*Wow*

Ok, I just revisited this thread after reading it up to date a week or two ago. Sully, as in Sean Sullivan, was the victim of the potty police?

I am sorry, that just made me laugh. Then it made me think of a guy I used to work with, that got hauled into jail for mouthing off to an officer. Then, his wife got jailed when she came to post bail. If you knew the guy, you would have understood that it was only a matter of time.

Karma?

Chris


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

ffiill said:


> Surely in a country where LEOs carry weapons you can expect them to make use of them.Particularly in a state noted for its conservative right wing politics!


That's cheap shot. Do you really think cops check their trigger finger at the door when their state leadership is left wing?


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Choose to believe Sully, or not. It was another example of Valousia County. If a couple of joints that have been reported by a third party. & was never found on the boat is okay to spends tens of thousands of dollars when a squad car will do. Then I am sure you are ok with granny & the butter knife.

I myself entering Govt. Cut in Miami by the C.G. Money disappeared from my nav station. Holes cut in my boat. good cop, bad cop they will imprison me if I don't confess. After 3 1/2 hours of BS I told them to get off the boat, or cuff me. They got off the boat, and first thing in the morning I called the commanding officer. They slammed my boat while I was dead in the water, so they could board in attack mode.

Kind of funny he knew exactly which person had which role. He chewed some butt, and later called me. Warned me I need to have all my bells & whistles in order. Reason being they would be looking for me, and any minor infraction of the law. Months llater when the saw me again coming into Govt. Cut. I was standing on one of the bows with my right hand in the air showing them my I.Q. extended from my right hand. Some people just don't know how to handle authority.

As typed many times here already. The officer who boarded for what ever reason. He should 've had everyone on deck before entering the cabin. He was way over the line of what should've been done. He should be fired, and then those behind him will act within reason.....*i2f*


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

When I was working commercially, the USCG have boarded the boats that I was on a few times. I was always curtious to them and they responded in kind. There is nothing like offering a cup of coffee or a soda to ease the tension of the situation. And the Harbor Police in fourchon LA boarded due to my having a medical problem and they expediated the ambulance to the pier. It was too stormy for life flight to take to the air...
So not all of us have had bad experiences with the LEOs. But for the five speeding tickets when I rode motorcycles... for some unknown reason the bike wouldn't travel under a hundred MPH. 

But if you feel that you are being really dumped on... Then record the incident for evidence. Either by someone with a camera or with security cameras spotted in key places of your vessel. Actually both at the same time will work. Then if they ask or order that person to stop filming then those hidden security cameras will probably not be noticed...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

When you're flat on your ass wondering why it is so quiet and wtf just happened...A big uniform with a gunbelt _can _be a very welcome sight. The bottom line is, cops are just mortals. Employees, in fact, not employers or masters. Some are good, some are bad, and if we want to make sure they are ALL good ones, someone has to step up and help take out the trash.

Someone mentioned to a troop safety office (State Troopers) in a class that cops used their red lights for donut runs, and he said "Not ours, and you won't do it either. If we catch someone making improper use of the red light, the first time he gets a ten day suspension without pay. The second time he gets a month off without pay. _There is no third time_."

Some outfits simply hold themselves to a higher standard than others.


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