# formosa 41' ketch need advice



## feroni

Hello
I’m seeking for a good offshore vessel, capable of crossing the Atlantic, I really like Formosa 41’ ketch she seams to be a beautiful boat, but I know little about her seaworthiness, I could really use an advice.
Thank you


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## chopsy

Feroni,
I guess I can't speak to the Formosa 41 exactly, but I had an Island Trader 41. Both William Garden ketches off the same plans. THe builders in the Far East all used the same plans to make many brands. Don't know what year you are looking at, but I'd say the closer to the mid 70's the better. These were strong built boats that can take a lot of serious beating. THe hulls are extremely thick in the best places. In the thinnest point in my hull, to install a transducer I found 3/4" thick solid fiberglass. No core. My ketch sailed very well in big swells and was a comfortable ride for me and the ship's cat. THe living space was big (I am 6'3", 230) and had a nice shower. It was fun to sail. at about 16+ tons, you won't be winning any races, but racing sailboats is silly anyway. At a rough anchorage, she was always comfortable when the others were moving in the middle of the night to find a smoother ride. She carried a lot of fuel, water, and provisions. 
So, if you can do without all that "High Tech" BS that finds it's way onto a boat these days. And you like a traditional looking and acting sailboat, I'd say she be fine for long distance cruising without having to be a footballer or TV Chef to afford one. 
Cheers, paul


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## feroni

Hi
I know that Formosa and CT catches are almost the same if not identical, I like this boats exectly for their traditional look, I look at those plastic boats build nowadays and to tell you the truce they make me sick. I agree with you about racing, it is foolish, I want to cruise and enjoy myself wile doing it.
There are many Formosa’s and CT’s on yachtworld, and they are well equipped for their price, you see, I come from Rep. of Georgia which is on the Black Sea coast, So my plan is to fly to east coast of America buy one of this boats and sail my way back home, I know it sounds like a crazy plan, but boats are more expansive in Europe, so I decided to buy in US. 
I am not a very experienced sailor myself but I plan to hire a skipper who will help me with the voyage, only thing is that I have now idea how much will it cost to hire a skipper. 
Do you have any idea about the skipper prices? its about 6000 mile voyage


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## camaraderie

Suggest you read here:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/buying-boat/11115-ct-41-a.html#post48037

My own view is that many of these boats have huge problems waiting for a new buyer to fix them. To plan to find one in good shape and quickly sail back to Europe is unlikely in my opinion. There is a reason they are priced so cheaply however pretty they look. 
The cheapest way and safest way to get a boat back to Europe is to ship it on Dockwise or similar freight service.


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## JiffyLube

I've read that some years of these boats had hollow wooden masts and wooden spars that could be a problem, and that many had problems with the teak deckings. I was attracted to these boats at one time.


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## feroni

I read the link you gave me, to listen to those guys none of these boats are worth buying, so what should a guy like me should do if he likes an old stile boats and comfortable ones, also seaworthy? Do you guys have any ideas what make should I buy?


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## soulfinger

I'm no expert, but if you like that type of boat, you might want to look at Hans Christian or Tayana.


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## camaraderie

You are trying to buy a "salty looking", blue water capable boat, in good condition, for a really cheap price. While there are plenty of salty looking boats that are blue water capable...good condition and cheap price don't go together. 
See the blue water boat list sticky thread here:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/buyin...fshore-cruising-boat-list-january-2008-a.html 
Post #'s 6&8 should give you a fairly complete list of ocean going boats. 
Find some in your size range and take a look on yachtworld.com to see what appeals to you and what can be had within your budget.


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## TSOJOURNER

*formosa sailboat plans*

does any one have rigging chart for the woodenor plans....do not have the original mast and mizzen but need specs....thanks mike


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## boatpoker

Formosa 41 -Teak decks = rotten plywood deck core, Chainplates of very low quality "stainless" steel invariably corroded. No structural support under the mizzen mast on the ones I have seen (I can't believe they are all like that). Mainmast sits on a block of lumber apparently thrown in the keel sump. Very inconsistently built, no two are the same.


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## XTR

I seem to recall that I saw somewhere that the Formosa yard was about the lowest quality of the Taiwan yards in that era.


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## sww914

Last year, shortly after I decided to by another cruising boat I thought that the Formosa/CT/Mariner/Sea Wolf/ I can't think of them all type of a cool piratey looking boat was for me. I studied and studied and later decided that it was not for me. The killer wasn't the rotting cabins, it was the fact that they just don't move in light wind. The second strike is that there just isn't one with 2 nice cabins to suit a family. They also have a fairly deep draft, not much of a problem in the Pacific but a real problem in the Caribbean.


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## TQA

"They also have a fairly deep draft, not much of a problem in the Pacific but a real problem in the Caribbean."

IMHO other than the Bahamas and possibly the Turks and Caicos deep draft is NOT a problem in the Caribbean.


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## FatBear

*Closer to home*

Hi Feroni,
If you're still looking, here's a Formosa 41 which is much closer to home and it doesn't look too expensive:

Formosa William Garden Ketch Boat For Sale - Rightboat.com - new & used boats for sale from the UK and Europe

--FatBear


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## Jeff_H

Au Contraire, $80,000 USD is a very high asking price for one of these.

Jeff


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## feroni

Thanks for offer, but I think it’s a double price


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## Fareast

We own a Mariner 40, while very simialar in design to the Formosas and CTs, etc, however, there are some differences. Mariners were built in Japan not Taiwan, there were only 95 built in the Japaneese yard. They are narrower of beam and therefore not as much room below. We draw 5.5 feet but were able to come down the ICW from CT to FL in the Winter, ( Yes we kissed the bottom a few times) She handled many Gales at anchor with ease and when off NJ handled those seas nicely as well. We also have Wood Spars, in fact we had them surveyed before leaving on our trip, with the exception of one small area they were ingood shape after almost 40 years, we did have new speaders made. Both the main and mizzen are more than adaquatly supported. She sails ok, does not go to weather as good as some, but sailboats in general are a series of trade offs. Not to BS anyone, the wood topsides is a constant vigal, but nothing major, at least not yet. We think the Mariner 40 is a beatiful boat.


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## justsusan

*TaiWan Turkeys=not accurate*

Looking at Formosas of any vintage can be confusing.No two are built alike is accurate..but,for the most part anything problematic will have been addressed by an Owner..and cured-correctly-one would hope.
Price does not always dictate the condition of the boat-especially in the current market..and,especially on the East coast of the U.S. right now.Boats are cheap and cash rules. 
My advice is this-find a boat you like and is priced in your budget then SURVEY-SURVEY-SURVEY. Find a Surveyor that is familiar with the Formosa brand and knows the shortcomings of these boats.
as to the Formosa 41 and its siblings-these boats-and i mean alot of them-have crossed big water..big-bad water and lived to tell the tale.
I ve owned one-been thru every locker and hole on it...is it perfect??...no.
Have i ever found a perfect boat??...no.
tho I hear they do build one...someplace.
and,as a side note-William Garden is given credit for the Formosa designs-copied ad infinitum-but according to him,its not his..just some Bastardized-copied design from someplace that looked like something he did so they put his name on it. Just a tidbit for your scrapbook.
Fair Winds, david-Kemah Texas


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## sailor50

I would look for one that does not have the original wooden masts, original over sized rigging, and is absolutely able of passing survey. They have a lot of space, some have great teak carvings, and some have been around the world several times.


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## zeehag

i8 love my formosa yankee clipper. i had wanted sea tiger but that wasnt to be. i got this boat for really good price and found many bad spots. as i started to dig into them, i found the spots were not as bad as originally thought. if you like the look of a boat, dont let anyone talk you out if it--it is fixable. i am so glad i stuck to my guns and did this-- i hope you did as well. the leaky teaky yacht club group on yahoo groups is an excellent resource. smoooth sailing.
donot pay more htan 30k for a decent condition one of these--and fix it to be worth double!!!
there is one of these--a sea tiger-- sailing baja haha this yr--just motored by me--- these good old boats are awesome---- just do it and fix it and is gonna be fine! they can and will go anywhere. yes are deep--but is all good. 
if there is 7 ft water in a place in low tide--we can do it!!!!

these boats look sooo goood with a bone in their teeth-- IMPRESSIVE!!!!!!

a benefit to having wood box masts--they are EASILY repairable and a lot less costly than you would imagine!!!! they also dont rot easily and they donot corrode. they are sitka spruce.



oops i see is a very old thread--i hope ye found yer formosa.


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## Restless41

I have a 1973 CT 41. As with all used boats, care and condition are critical. Main flaws that seem to be universal. If the deck leakes you will have plywood core damage-repairable if not too large. The cabin house on all but the latest ones are a thin glass skin over poor quality plywood. The mizzen mast step is not well executed and will need to be re built. The hollow wooden spars are fine if cared for. Generally a lot of boat for the money and comfortable in a chop. A bit faster than you might expect in a 28,000 fat girl. Shorten sail in a blow to keep the ride comfortable or don't if you like to hear the rigging hum and don't need sleep.


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## zeehag

XTR said:


> I seem to recall that I saw somewhere that the Formosa yard was about the lowest quality of the Taiwan yards in that era.


there were few yards and some different families making these boats. there is a lot of bad rap given to these boats--- the decks leaked-- but that isnt a big deal-- mine the decks were removed and glassed over. hans christian decks leak,also-- guess what- they , too were and are , made in taiwan. in , yes, he same yards used to build formosas and ct and hardin sea wolf. 
most folks donot know how to handle teak wood decking or other areas. therefore the boats got bad mouthed. there are many stories about many boats. doesnt mean the boat is bad. these boats may have flaw or two--by this time they are ironed out -- with mine-- the wrong person did refitting of the boat-- some stuff was done well and some not done well. 
in all older boats there are problems with chain plates, tanks, decks, what have you. they are older boats. would you pick up a 1955 chevy and expect it to get you across country-- before a restoration???
the ply wood used in the creation of these boats was phillipine mahogany. it rots easily ..like pine. is soft. is replaceable.
these are good sturdy boats that can handle seas and winds. they can be had for lots of money or for little money. you can put into them a lot or a little money. when everything works, these are awesome boats.

mine is 1976. my plywood core is perfect. my coach house is perfect. yeah, my windows leak--lol--- ports dont. i need chain plates-- hay, boat is 1976 built-- this is time for that in any boat. i love mine and i wouldnt hesitate to sail her anywhere.


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## dennymusic

*Re: TaiWan Turkeys=not accurate*



justsusan said:


> Fair Winds, david-Kemah Texas


David. I know this is a very old topic. I wanted to send you a personal message through this forum but since I'm a new member, I haven't met my minimum post to topics yet to be allowed to send personal messages to members yet.

I saw this post by you and you mentioned you are in Kemah. I lived on my Gulfstar 37 at Portofino in Kemah for three years, 1997 thru 2000. I haven't owned it since 2000 nor lived on a boat since but I am returning to the sailing life soon.

I'm wanting a Formosa 41 from the 70's. A nice one. No major projects. Decks must have teak removed and cabin tops rebuilt. There aren't any for sale around here but I'll ship it/sail it here if I have to. Wanted to contact you and maybe you can give me some direction on a few things sailing related, boats and marina's.

Call me when you can.

Denny.
(281) 734-0225.


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## MedSailor

*Re: TaiWan Turkeys=not accurate*



dennymusic said:


> David. I know this is a very old topic. I wanted to send you a personal message through this forum but since I'm a new member, I haven't met my minimum post to topics yet to be allowed to send personal messages to members yet.
> 
> I saw this post by you and you mentioned you are in Kemah. I lived on my Gulfstar 37 at Portofino in Kemah for three years, 1997 thru 2000. I haven't owned it since 2000 nor lived on a boat since but I am returning to the sailing life soon.
> 
> I'm wanting a Formosa 41 from the 70's. A nice one. No major projects. Decks must have teak removed and cabin tops rebuilt. There aren't any for sale around here but I'll ship it/sail it here if I have to. Wanted to contact you and maybe you can give me some direction on a few things sailing related, boats and marina's.
> 
> Call me when you can.
> 
> Denny.
> (281) 734-0225.


A few months ago I sold mine which had nice new aluminum masts, beautifully rebuilt cabintop and water and fuel tanks were replaced with stainless. Only big project left was the chainplates which always surveyed well but I never trusted.

Good luck finding your Formosa!

MedSailor


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## dennymusic

If you don't mind, I'd be interested to know what you got for it. I guess you had an ad that still may exist? Description so I can get a better feel of what they go for in various conditions. Got any pics of it? I love looking at everyone's 41's. They're so beautiful. I have saved and categorized a slew of pics of them. I can't get enough of them.

There are a few for sale around North America. A few farther away too. Most of them I see are all over the price range, from $40K to just over $100K. And with a wide range of descriptions of their conditions, which doesn't surprise me though. I know the list of serious items to look for. You did several things already on that list,,, tanks, changing to aluminum mast,,,,, rebuilding cabin top,, 

The other stuff is; switch teak decks to fiberglass, check engine close, wood rot, bow sprint, rudder, """electrical""".


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## dennymusic

Thanks David. (I can't reply to your PM as I am new here and have a quota to meet first)

Sorry for the delay in replying. Well I hope I can find a nice one without breaking my bank, and back. Ha.

Thanks for the tips. I already know what to look out for on these boats but I didn't know about the link. I have a broker and sent her an email about this. She's under the weather right now pretty bad with her health but did say she'll get the list soon.

Thank you for responding.


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## MedSailor

Hopefully you can find a good one. Where are you located? Id you're in my neck of the woods I could go kick the tires of one with you and see if she's any good.

Med


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## MedSailor

dennymusic said:


> .... Got any pics of it? I love looking at everyone's 41's. They're so beautiful. I have saved and categorized a slew of pics of them. I can't get enough of them.
> .


I couldn't figure out how to send you pictures by PM, so here they are for you and for public viewing. Shortcomings aside, the Formosa 41 sure is a beautiful boat....


























































MedSailor


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## zeehag

leayteakyyachtclub is a yahoo group with all the diagrams and info you ever want to know. go there.. write an email to the group to introduce yourself.
ask questions.
the linky in my signature is the email address for them.


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## dennymusic

Wow. Beautiful boat Med. 

Well, as much as I have fallen in love with these 41er's, I just made a major decision change last night. I decided to go with a Vagabond 42. I need the room and that kind of layout down below because I will be living on the boat. I prefer the outside of these 41er's though. I wanted a rear cockpit really bad. It's been tough to give that up but,,,, that's boats for ya. 

Also, I had thought about a Vagabond 47 but I talked to an owner of one recently and I began to quickly realize that the 47 is way to big to work solo, coming in and out of the slip all the time. I hate depending on other "earthlings" for anything. Upkeep, initial purchase cost, larger boat slip fee and insurance are pretty high too. I might get a 47 when I win the lottery. And if the winnings are really big, I'll get a Formosa 41 also, just to play around in the bay with on the weekends. : )

Med, thanks for all your help and the pics too.


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## dennymusic

Zee. Hope things are coming together for you, and Bubba. I been thinking about y'all.


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## zeehag

we fine--getting crew to help soon, then we repair and again move along.. whew been way tooo long.


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## dennymusic

Glad to hear the news Zee. Remind Bubba to be careful looking over and down hull at moving water again and not fall overboard. I bet dat sea water not good for kat fur.


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## zeehag

he had a worser reaction to hypothermia....almost lost him. 
he is a lot more careful on bow detail now. insists on his tether.. good boy.


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## dennymusic

Ha, smart boy too.


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## brucegorman111

I would agree that the formosa was designed by a very talented Mr. Garden. Purchasing this one, and by FAR... she's a good ketch, bar none.


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## 3azz

I bought a Formosa 41 Ketch in May this year. The cabin top needed te be replaced, but the hull and interior are good.
Once I took all the walls and ceilings of the cabin, it became clear how well the superstructure has been made. This yacht is very, very strong and well build. The hull itself is strong and thick as well and she is quite easy to maintain. She's got large capacities for fuel and water and she is very spacious on the inside. (Although a little bit outdated).
I love her. She is a beautiful yacht, with a large living room, stong superstructure and stable behaviour in the water.


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## zeehag

there is an electric propulsion formosa 41 for sale here in barra. excellent condition.
pm me if interested in kharmaseas. she is gorgeous.
:2 boat:


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## old motorhead 63

There is a 1975 CT 41 here in a local marina that is schooner rigged. It even has a square topsail. I have been reading about and looking at these boats for over a year now, and have never seen or heard of one rigged as a schooner. Has anyone else seen one with this rig? Is it likely that it could have been ordered from the factory as such? The present owner purchased it in 1995 and it was a schooner when he bought it.

Would this rig make the CT 41 even poorer going to weather than it is reported as a ketch? It has wooden masts, wire standing rigging, wood blocks, is black and is un-restored. It has not moved, nor had the engine started in 10 years sitting in fresh water and has no good sails.

What is it worth?

Thanks to all respondents in advance.


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## boatpoker

Somewhere around minus $200k


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## zeehag

old motorhead 63 said:


> There is a 1975 CT 41 here in a local marina that is schooner rigged. It even has a square topsail. I have been reading about and looking at these boats for over a year now, and have never seen or heard of one rigged as a schooner. Has anyone else seen one with this rig? Is it likely that it could have been ordered from the factory as such? The present owner purchased it in 1995 and it was a schooner when he bought it.
> 
> Would this rig make the CT 41 even poorer going to weather than it is reported as a ketch? It has wooden masts, wire standing rigging, wood blocks, is black and is un-restored. It has not moved, nor had the engine started in 10 years sitting in fresh water and has no good sails.
> 
> What is it worth?
> 
> Thanks to all respondents in advance.


the boat is worth whatever anyone wishes to pay or collect for it. as a schooner, it is still a worthy sailing boat. 
it will still sail trade winds, which is what these boats were designed to do.
sailing to weather? what an ungentlemanly way to cruise. 
why anyone wants to cruise into weather is unknown, as that is most uncomfortalble point of sail, and is practiced best in a 747. 
so far, i have found no realistic questions in this post. 
if you want a formosa, offer money on this unusual one. 
a good offer, despite neglect of whatever perceived time, should start at 20-30k. it floats. it has sails and a rig. if you can find the owner, make an offer.if you want the boat.
if you do not want the boat, this is all moot, isnt it.

andm, for your information, formosas sail a hella lot better than their reputation, which was befouled by folks who never sailed them and who wish to race. these are not racers, but can sail a lot better than you hear from fail rumors out of moouths of those who do no tknow.


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## MedSailor

zeehag said:


> the boat is worth whatever anyone wishes to pay or collect for it. as a schooner, it is still a worthy sailing boat.
> it will still sail trade winds, which is what these boats were designed to do.
> sailing to weather? what an ungentlemanly way to cruise.
> why anyone wants to cruise into weather is unknown, as that is most uncomfortalble point of sail, and is practiced best in a 747.
> so far, i have found no realistic questions in this post.
> if you want a formosa, offer money on this unusual one.
> a good offer, despite neglect of whatever perceived time, should start at 20-30k. it floats. it has sails and a rig. if you can find the owner, make an offer.if you want the boat.
> if you do not want the boat, this is all moot, isnt it.
> 
> andm, for your information, formosas sail a hella lot better than their reputation, which was befouled by folks who never sailed them and who wish to race. these are not racers, but can sail a lot better than you hear from fail rumors out of moouths of those who do no tknow.


If you do want to make an offer, I would start muuuuch lower than that. Mine, which had aluminum masts, stainless fuel and water tanks, a running engine, and a rebuilt cabin-top sold for 32.5K. I'd first want to prove the engine runs, then I'd offer more like 10k. Though, I think I'd want those wood spars inspected first before doing anything.

MedSailor


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## zeehag

ok so i advised you as to what the owner would think of as value--now to buy it.... check the wood masts for cracking on glue lines.. same booms. this isi no tdealbreaker as masts n booms ar emake able from new wood. they ar espruce. you want spruce for htese items. check sprit for r ot under and thru. go below and check the beams across overhead. the4se too are replaceable, and are laminated. 
btw, wooden masts ar enot a bad thing, as wood masts are replaceable for under 5000 usd and aluminum new are over 15000 usd. EACH
check interior to see where the water is ingressing. all these have topsides leaks. not deal breakers, as the leaks stop when all on coach house roof is re bedded. 
take pix under engine, and under packing gland and of the stern tube, in its entirety. the stern tube is about 36 or so inches long. 
take pix of thru hulls. peruse these and figger out how much work will be needed for repairing this boat if you want it. the work is not as bad as many think. hell, i have one, i should know. and i cruise mine. full time.
look well at the steering mechanism and the rig, rig is replaceable piece by piece reasonably. check chainplates and the tangs. all of the rig, including dolphin striker, whisker stays and triatic. check lower bobstay fitting. check quadrant and chain and cables.
if bilge is dry, if engine runs, run it. let it run a few minuets, like half hour. then turn off. if engine not running, move, or try to move the propeller up and down. vertically, if there is movement you will be changing out th cutlass bearing and shaft log, which is exterior of boat. whil e under there, check the rudder for delam, for any thing needing attention. if water comes in from moving prop you need cutlas bearing. 
you will know how packing gland is when the water comes in from moving the prop. check threads and unit for integrity.
lets say the needs work boat is offered for sale at 30k. is reasonable, but...
so if engine not running and you find stufff inside you wanna take money off the price to fix, offer 12000-15000 usd. cannot go wrong. figger the replacement value is over 150,000 yes it is. 
mine is replacement value 168,000, and i bought for 5000 usd. po bought this boat for 39,950.


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## boatpoker

zeehag said:


> figger the replacement value is over 150,000 yes it is.
> mine is replacement value 168,000, and i bought for 5000 usd. po bought this boat for 39,950.


Zeehag, you clearly do not understand the difference between the mythical "replacement value" required by most US underwriters who force surveyors to put on the survey and the real world "fair market value" which is also on the survey.

There is not a chance in my world or yours that any Formosa 41 is worth $168k. Shown below are the listing and actual sales prices of every Formosa 41 sold through yachtworld since January 2013. Since many on this forum have also claimed that brokers inflate the actual selling prices reported to yachtworld, even these values may be high.


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## boatpoker

Sorry that jpeg did not come through.
Here it is .....


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## zeehag

boatpoker said:


> Zeehag, you clearly do not understand the difference between the mythical "replacement value" required by most US underwriters who force surveyors to put on the survey and the real world "fair market value" which is also on the survey.
> 
> There is not a chance in my world or yours that any Formosa 41 is worth $168k. Shown below are the listing and actual sales prices of every Formosa 41 sold through yachtworld since January 2013. Since many on this forum have also claimed that brokers inflate the actual selling prices reported to yachtworld, even these values may be high.


had you READ my post you would not only see that i understand the difference. you see, being a female is a blessing. many males seem to not be able to see past the gender into the brain and words spoken seem to disappear. rodlmffao
i actually take time to READ the words of others, as opposed to making an ASSumption as to what was stated. we do not need to make intelligence asaults, as it is easily seen who is better prepared to A) survey a formosa and B) sell or buy one.
and so boatpoker, why dont you go back a few hours. 
as someone who has surveyed boats with a very well known and HONEST sams and nams surveyor, i can speak with confidence. 
yes replacement value is allegedly fictional, as it bespeaks imaginary numbers based on replacement of a hull in the current market. 
the purchase price is only a value to the seller and to the buyer. has no meaning as to value of boat.
nor does the survey result.
value is what will someone pay for the item in the condition in which the item is displayed.
is subjective, not objective. 
sorry you are unable to read, so you could have enjoyed my posting. have a great day.


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## boatpoker

zeehag said:


> the purchase price is only a value to the seller and to the buyer. has no meaning as to value of boat.


The purchase price is the only real value.


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## zeehag

purchase price is a fleeting value and replacement value is what the insurance will give you if boat was surveyed and insured. 
much more relevant than a fleeting number used only for purchasing the boat to begin with., once boat is purchased, that alleged value changes drastically, whereas the hull replacement value stands


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## boatpoker

First of all it is 
Replacement Cost" not value and having dealt intimately with insurance claims for 30years I can tell you no underwriter is going to pay out on "replacement" cost. They will either pay out on "agreed" value which is the amount the policy was written for and very likely identical to the "fair market" value shown on the survey report or if you have an "actual value" policy they will pay out on whatever they feel the depreciated value.

Zeehag, you have made some wonderful contributions to this forum but you are way off track here and misleading the innocent.


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## zeehag

cost equals value. rodl. ye dont even know what you speak. alleged surveyors like you are dime a dozen
GOOD ones are rare.
you, boatpoker have exhibited the best of reasons for vetting ones surveyor well. you have also strayed far from intent of thread with your bullying ways
NOW, if anyone desires accurate formosa info, please use leakyteakyyachtclub, yahoo group. the members are owners who have been restoring their treasures and sailing and cruising them.
not desk sit pencil pushing clonez who love to badmouth these fine sailing ketches


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## MedSailor

Zee,

I suggest you fact check your own beliefs regarding replacement value. There is NO WAY that is the value your (or anyone's) insurance company will pay in the event of a total loss. If you have an insurance policy, you can read the numbers for yourself in your policy. Alternately you can ask a broker and they'll be able to clarify the meaning of replacement value. 

I agree that setting the record straight here is important for new folks reading along. 

Respectfully, 
MedSailor


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## zeehag

funny how my survey says

168,000 usd replacement value. dig it??? do ye need a copy of the papers?? have you tried replacing a 40.9 ft hull of late??


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## MedSailor

zeehag said:


> funny ho wmy survey says
> 
> 168,000 usd replacement value. dig it??? do ye need a copy of the papers?? have you tried replacing a 40.9 ft hull of late??


I had several of those surveys on my F41. My F41 surveys also listed replacement values around 250K yet my insurance policy said they would pay 40K for a total loss.

The replacement value is the cost of hiring Bob Perry to write the plans, and then commissioning a yard to build you a brand new F41. Nobody's insurance policy covers replacement of a 30+ year old boat a new one.

What they *do* cover is replacement with a similar used one, found on the open market. It's just like a car policy. If your car is 30 years old and not produced any longer, your insurance will pay you a couple grand to go buy a similarly aged/used/condition one. They won't pay a custom car shop to fabricate up a clone of your car.

If you don't have an insurance policy of your own to check these numbers with, go look at a neighbor's or friends. Or call an insurance broker or underwriter. The answers are there to be easily verified.

All of our surveys have replacement value numbers on them. I'm not sure what the point of them is....

MedSailor


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## zeehag

i already have copies of the plans for my boat. 
i also have sources for the beautiful woods i willbe using to create more parts and the bronze workers to do the same with the pretties. what is your excuse? 
why do you need bob perry to make your plans?? as much as i admire mr perry for his designs, mine had a designer. 
i find the design perfect fore my needs, as is. wasnt the original designer good enough?? these boats were designed for what they are excellent at.. sailing trade winds.
want plans?? go to leaky teaky yackt club, a yahoo group. need plans and measurements for making wood masts-- go there and learn who else has created masts from a buncha wood and ask questions.
wanna know how they sail?? go to .. omygods leaky teaky yacht club, a yahoo group and ask how these tanks saill you may be pleasantly surprised. 
same as to quality of stainless used in taiwan, a nationalist country under usa guidance and protection for many decades and see where the stainless came from that they used. i think you will find it was not chinese. 
i did notice my tangs and chainplates, although original, are still in good shape, xrays were clean. my replacements i had made for the 2 that were broken by being left on a breakwall in 2000 have been made of 304 ss, and are quite satisfactory. no rust no muss. nice n burly.

btw, the individual who dissed my boat best apologize. 
one does not diss anothers boat especially without having seen said boat. you have displayed very rude mannerisms. we are not here to diss folks but to add to the knowledge base.
apparently y'all forgot to read the memo.


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## boatpoker

zeehag said:


> cost equals value. rodl. ye dont even know what you speak. alleged surveyors like you are dime a dozen
> GOOD ones are rare.
> you, boatpoker have exhibited the best of reasons for vetting ones surveyor well. you have also strayed far from intent of thread with your bullying ways
> NOW, if anyone desires accurate formosa info, please use leakyteakyyachtclub, yahoo group. the members are owners who have been restoring their treasures and sailing and cruising them.
> not desk sit pencil pushing clonez who love to badmouth these fine sailing ketches


Zeehag come down off your high horse for a minute, take a deep breath and think about it ... do you really believe an underwriter is going to pay out $168k (your replacement cost) on a $30k boat.

PS. You are a little overly sensitive, I did not bad mouth Formosa's. My issue is with your bizarre statements of value.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make her think.


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## zeehag

the only one on a high horse, "amigo" is you. i state what i see and wht i was taught by an HONEST surveyor with the best rep in west coast, the same one with whom i apprenticed for a bit in kali. 
i can see why he is one of very few honest and intelligent surveyors in usa.


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## celenoglu

Formosa boats might be seaworthy, but they are not air worthy. The teak decks are always a problem, and a lot of water should be expected to enter the cabin via the upper sturucture. Ther might be ones that are redone to overcome this problem.


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## boatpoker

I see you and logic have a rather distant acquaintance.


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## zeehag

rodlmffao.


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## boatpoker

zeehag said:


> rodlmffao.


and literacy even more distant


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## hasher

Replacement value.

I live in a neighborhood with houses that were built beginning in 1890.

My neighbor and friend bought one and insured it for replacement value. He paid less than $200k. He received $650k when it burned down. He rebuilt. It cost him every penny of the $650k.

Just my experience. I am sure it depends entirely on the wording of the insurance contract.


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## boatpoker

I don't know anything about house insurance but I deal with marine claims every week. There are two types of policies available to pleasure craft

Actual Cash Value - which pays out of the depreciated fair market value of the boat

Agreed Value - which pays out the amount specified in your policy.

For obvious reasons The Agreed Value policy is more expensive. You can google these terms along with "marine insurance" for a more complete explanation.

The "Replacement Cost" is mentioned only in the survey it is not mentioned in your policy and therefore has no relevance to any pay out. "Replacement Cost" in this regard refers to what a new similar boat would cost today. This is something many underwriters ask to be included in the survey report to help them with their actuarial data. They have explained to me the need for this info on many occasions and it sounds like greek to me. Again the key factor is that RC is in the survey not the policy.

Do you really think you're going to sink your 40year old Formosa worth $30k and they are going to give you 400k for a new boat ! If that was the case people would be scuttling old Formosa's all over the place.

Think about it is anyone in their right mind going to pay out like that on a policy you've been paying premiums on $30k. These people are not stupid they are in the business to make money.


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## zeehag

boatpoker said:


> and literacy even more distant


you ARE speaking of your self, i presume


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## boatpoker




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## Bob Yates

I have owned a 'Formosa 41' for 12 years now...a magnificent yacht. However, that is now. I bought it very cheaply without masts. It hadn't been used for a few years. With a budget of around $60 grand (Australian) I worked with a shipwright on and off for about 8 months and refurbished her to a very high standard. I located s/hand aluminium masts and had them sandblasted and powder-coated (white), craned out the motor and had it essentially rebuilt, replaced the chainplates, removed the teak from decks and glassed over, sanded everything back to glass and repainted, rewired most of it, and bought new sails. I went over budget about $10 grand but wound up with a truely wonderful blue water classic boat. It is slow working into the wind, but with the engine (Perkins 4108...bullet-proof) in gear and running at 1,200 revs (using about 1 ltre diesel/hour .. or 1/4 gallon) it can tack fairly high at around 5knots in 15-20 knot wind. At any degree off the wind, this is a fabulous sailer..extremely well-behaved, no matter how strong the wind or conditions Have been in 50k+ conditions a few times, running off). A few years ago I fitted an electric/hydraulic auto-pilot ($A6000) and tw big electric winches ($A5000 each) which has made the boat extremely easy to handle single-handed. I have lived aboard for 10 years, and had a comfortable life. What you have to understand with a boat like this, is to get a fundamentally sound hull, bargain down to a very keen price, then go right through and do a proper refit. You will then have a boat you can take anywhere. The biggest hassle I have is answering the same old questions to the old salts who tend to gather on the wharf where ever I come into port. It's tiresome telling the boats history again and again. Bob Yates, Sydney Australia onboard 'Diana'.


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## zeehag

i have learned my wonderful original 41 yr old masts are not spruce from anywhere but awesome thai cedar. at present my mainmast is perfect and my mizzen is cane damaged with rot since cane hit. with a wind gen on masthead, the mizzen twistoflexed itself to death, remained standing, and will be replaced unfortunately with an aluminum stick. i prefer the thai cedar. 
if anyone is still seeking a formosa 41 at a reasonable price to invest into these projects, there is one in gabriels yard in guaymas for sale 8000 usd, less than the accrued renta in yard storage. not bad. mine was 4650 usd. 

there are many rumors on these boats and much untruth spoken, even by alleged surveyors. if you know boats well and feel comfortable surveying your own boat, you may just find the items requiring repair without too many ridiculous issues, such as freshwater hosing. duh. replace it. hahahahaa
anything you choose to not replace in a purchased boat is gonna fail soon. you have choices--after ignoring the alleged surveyor, first find an honest surveyor, not an alleged one. i use a very excellent man in san diego. very high quality work and honest. that is very rare in a surveyor, as we have seen with specific postings in this and other forums. 
hollow box thai cedar masts with reasonable maintenance and no wind gennies on masthead will last looong time. some over 45 yrs. 
the chainplates are usa quality stainless., i still have 2 originals. my ss tanks are still good, except the fuel tank, which was removed and replaced by plastic, which i replaced with stainless. works better in these boats. they need the weight. 
these are excellent trade winds sailing vessels. heavy and solid. 
rumors are wonderful for election campaigns, but donot work in boat maintenance or purchases or handling. 
opinions are like culos. everyone has one. most are worthless.
pick your rumors carefully. 
racers want boats to sail like airplanes--into weather. fine if you are racing. as gentlemen never sail to weather, it is a moot point. when you need a boat to sail close to wind, it will .. you can make any boat sail closer to wind than you want, but never into it. want to sail into weather, fly a 747.
these handle trade winds well, and will be able to head out of port with winds other boats return to slippage to avoid.
if you are thinking about a formosa, forget the spruce masts. most were thai cedar. the quick to rot masts are spruce. funny how that works. and funny how spruce is pricier in so pacific than is thai cedar. i love thai cedar. it works quite well. 
these are good cruising choices--easy to repair under way, all is laid out for easy access, not needing any spider monkey crew to twist and contort into tiny holes for repacking the stuffing box while you cruise.... that need can and will arise. engine access is total, not partial, as in many performance cruisers. 
life on board these is pleasant and calming, not plastic fakery. got a rot? replace that wood. portholes leak? change out gasket. 
sole squeaks? fix the frame beneath that. is easy. all is easily accessed for happy sailing. dont want fresh water on your teaky decking? cover boat. duuhh. it is all easy. 
got a leak?? is easy to find. there is a tell on the wood. plastic, got a leak?? tear out interior to locate.. btdt. prefer formosa workmanship., was excellent. 
it is the lesser quality work done via many owners that is the real issue in these.


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## Lazerbrains

I have always liked them and they seem to be good solid tradewind passage makers.

Zeehag, how's the refit going? I know you have been working on it for awhile.


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## zeehag

refit-- in process of planning temporary removal of mizzen -- wood one is self destructing after patricia wreaked her havoc.. once mast is horizontal we have much to do in the "formosa hole" under the ice box..
so far, so good--is mainly preparatory, as a salvor had screwed bus bars into mizzenmast... we making new panel, parts are all in except one, for which we still wait. then new panel, no mast, and full disarray with the jobs of deconstruction. 
i am most pleased i had the forethought to get one of these for cruising, as all is straight forward, unlike those performance cruisers which need at least one spider monkey crewman for repairing and adjusting the lil sweet things of cruising. these are very well designed to be exactly that which they do best. trade winds cruising. 
i LOVE this boat.


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## Hydrophilia

I Just bought one myself and hope to love it as much. Pulling both masts in ten days for some carpentry decay pursuit. I DO love the idea that I can repair them myself rather than needing to get new spars.... but my previous boat's spars were SO trouble-free. 
How much work does your mizzen require?



zeehag said:


> refit-- in process of planning temporary removal of mizzen -- wood one is self destructing after patricia wreaked her havoc.. once mast is horizontal we have much to do in the "formosa hole" under the ice box..
> so far, so good--is mainly preparatory, as a salvor had screwed bus bars into mizzenmast... we making new panel, parts are all in except one, for which we still wait. then new panel, no mast, and full disarray with the jobs of deconstruction.
> i am most pleased i had the forethought to get one of these for cruising, as all is straight forward, unlike those performance cruisers which need at least one spider monkey crewman for repairing and adjusting the lil sweet things of cruising. these are very well designed to be exactly that which they do best. trade winds cruising.
> i LOVE this boat.


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## zeehag

Hydrophilia said:


> I Just bought one myself and hope to love it as much. Pulling both masts in ten days for some carpentry decay pursuit. I DO love the idea that I can repair them myself rather than needing to get new spars.... but my previous boat's spars were SO trouble-free.
> How much work does your mizzen require?


mizzen would require 5 mebbe 6 replacement boards of thai cedar. not available here... still exploring options but a friend has been growing a 40 ft aluminum tree for me for a few years, now. may use it.


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## tipsyravensailing

zee - i know this thread is dated - but i'm looking very keenly at a formosa 41 from 1971, aft cockpit style. I would genuinely love to chat about the boats and get your knowledge as best as possible before pulling the trigger on it. he has it listed for a pretty steep 30k, he has done a lot of work on it, but i wager he'll come down a bit... but only if i know what i'm talking about. if you're still west coast (i think i saw cali in one of your posts) beer/tea/steak whatever on me for the sake of a conversation. I can pm you contact info if you're willing/able to have a chat.


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## zeehag

tipsyravensailing said:


> zee - i know this thread is dated - but i'm looking very keenly at a formosa 41 from 1971, aft cockpit style. I would genuinely love to chat about the boats and get your knowledge as best as possible before pulling the trigger on it. he has it listed for a pretty steep 30k, he has done a lot of work on it, but i wager he'll come down a bit... but only if i know what i'm talking about. if you're still west coast (i think i saw cali in one of your posts) beer/tea/steak whatever on me for the sake of a conversation. I can pm you contact info if you're willing/able to have a chat.


always willing to converse about htese beauties... bring it on!!!


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## midwesterner

tipsyravensailing said:


> zee - i know this thread is dated - but i'm looking very keenly at a formosa 41 from 1971, aft cockpit style. I would genuinely love to chat about the boats and get your knowledge as best as possible before pulling the trigger on it. ....if you're still west coast (i think i saw cali in one of your posts) ....I can pm you contact info if you're willing/able to have a chat.


As of March, her Blog shows her as still being stuck in Mazatlan Mexico with her masts down for rebuilding, with a multitude of other problems holding her there for a while.

https://sksolitarybird.org/?fbclid=IwAR0WHL2zVs0UWZ9V8RuF8yrrgs2Y2vIa2Q2dzlj9c_xMGvQItbiB56TSJt8/


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## tipsyravensailing

urgh. apparently i cannot send a pm yet due to a post count limit. i don't know if i can't receive. can you just email me at maglinvinn at gmail dot com


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## TQA

These usually come with teak decks screwed on to a cored deck. The screw holes let in water and the deck core turns to muck. The cost to fix this will be 40 k plus for a cheap job. New teak decks and a repaired core 100k +.

If it has wooden masts budget for a spell in the yard and a top to bottom check for rot with the masts out. 

If it has the original black iron tanks these are WAY overdue for replacement.

If the deck has been done, ali masts and new tanks carry on looking otherwise don't walk away RUN. These things are money pits.

Do not get seduced by the pretty teak interior.


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## zeehag

TQA said:


> These usually come with teak decks screwed on to a cored deck. The screw holes let in water and the deck core turns to muck. The cost to fix this will be 40 k plus for a cheap job. New teak decks and a repaired core 100k +.
> 
> If it has wooden masts budget for a spell in the yard and a top to bottom check for rot with the masts out.
> 
> If it has the original black iron tanks these are WAY overdue for replacement.
> 
> If the deck has been done, ali masts and new tanks carry on looking otherwise don't walk away RUN. These things are money pits.
> 
> Do not get seduced by the pretty teak interior.


my word you are a fountain of disinformation. 
best left unsaid that which you donot understand. no black iron in these... there is good stainless steel tankage and not all had teak decking. the issue with teakwood decking is the maintenance err lack there of as poorly performed by previous owners who have no clue as to care of teak. 
the only money pit is the boat owned by the mouth err hand that wrote these scathing and incorrect bs remarks. 
these jewels are easily repaired with minimal input of money. ask me how i know this. 
yes i am still in mazatlan repairing hurricane damaged mizzen and maintaining my mainmast and repairing issues that were blatant when i got this boat for 4650 usd from my neighbor in sd. he bought a salvaged boat for 30k usd. i took it 3000 miles before effecting any real repairs. oh, my the shame and folly. hahahahahahaha i also experienced engine runaway. what have you done in your alleged sailing career , other than without badmouth without information the boats of others.
i have sailed since age 7, and i have owned boats and worked on them and lived on board since 1990. i have experienced many kinds and marques boats. folk s who love racing an d production boats dislike formosa/ct/seawolf--i think they be jealous these jewels are better than their ill informed minds. the masts are easily repaired and upgrades are easily effected with little to no money. as each is different, there is no pat squawk that is appropriate for all of htese. 
while under way we can repair ANYTHING that fails EASILY .... UNLIKE your basic production cored hull flexahull you try to push other s into owning because you are sick of the constant repairs that effect nothing. 
when winds come over 30 kts we can easily go to sea. hahahahaha i love watching the scaredy cats on sloops run for safety of marina when winds are 15 kts.. 
these ketches are designed for sailing tradewinds. donot settle for a cored hull flexiboat that cannot tolerate 25 kts and more. 
if you donot personally know these boats, keep out of htese conversations as you only exhibit your ignorance.
ps my mizzen repair has come to a total of 400 usd for 2 scarfed in lengths of new wood and refitting the rig. top that with aluminum..hahahahaha better yet, break an aluminum mast in a locale with no welding capabilities and see how far you must go to replace that stick.

it is comedic how some consider refit and maintenance a bad thing. would certainly not want to buy their leftovers. 
btw=-- one need not haulout nor use a yard for mast repairs and maintenance. 
spruce is not a goo dwood for longevity of mast life. hahahahahahaha mine are some kind o f southeast asian type wood that resists rot for decades. my mast bases are healthy platforms for potential rebuilding when and where needed. . .

durability--my formosa 41 was left on santa barbaras breakwall for a week back in 2000 ish... was salvaged and sold to my po, who became my neighbor. he didnot maintain this boat nor effect any refits. he DID detonate the engine, a 4-107, which i replaced with a 108/. he put 750 miles on her before mooring in coronado moorings in 2004. i watched her deteriorate until 2008 when i put my foot down and got her for me n bubba. po chose inland as home in 2007. i bought this in 2009. acquired 2008. hahahahahahaha 
i know this baby every square inch. i have seen few other boats built as well as this particular boat has been built. remember i have been sailing since 1955 and owned my own boats since 1990. i owned more than 10 different boats and have sailed more than 100 different boats.

there is no sign of any damages from the incident on the breakwall. no dimpling no breakage no bulkhead cracks..nothing showing this event even took place. these are excellent boats that have proven themselves as seaworthy ocean crossers and trade winds sailors since before 1972, when the molds were brought to taiwan for reproduction of these hulls.

these are 45 ish year old boats. there is going to be some kind of issue--most of these have had redecking done 20 years ago. now, potential buyers can either listen to a naysayw=er without informative spew or can lisrtewn to someone who knows these boats well. is choice of the potential purchaser. 
to abjectly state these are problem boats only exhibits lack of knowledge.


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## tipsyravensailing

TQA said:


> These usually come with teak decks screwed on to a cored deck. The screw holes let in water and the deck core turns to muck. The cost to fix this will be 40 k plus for a cheap job. New teak decks and a repaired core 100k +.
> 
> If it has wooden masts budget for a spell in the yard and a top to bottom check for rot with the masts out.
> 
> If it has the original black iron tanks these are WAY overdue for replacement.
> 
> If the deck has been done, ali masts and new tanks carry on looking otherwise don't walk away RUN. These things are money pits.
> 
> Do not get seduced by the pretty teak interior.


the teak deck had been removed, core replaced and reglassed. i think its waiting for paint.


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## zeehag

dan ...thos epix i saw are impressive a sis the list of items completed. yup. i would go for it... is beautiful. see my email for details. 
as for wilmington area--there is a lumber yard upwind from your boat---watch for termites. get boat out of there and bring south. asap. 
i used to live up there--was in lighthouse landings, newmarks, have sailed out of all the marinas in lost angeles and liked fish harbor best of all..... friend sailed out of holiday and out of cabrillo-- btdt, lost angeles. there used to be a beautiful and ornate ct or formosa 41 named sunset gal in lighthouse yacht landings many decades ago--am still looking for her. is a gorgeous boat. 

in your information i see no issues that would preclude a successful and happy ownership of the beautiful shiplet. 
impressive refit to date. keep me posted as to your progress in purchasing.


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## midwesterner

zeehag said:


> my word you are a fountain of disinformation.
> best left unsaid that which you donot understand. no black iron in these... there is good stainless steel tankage and not all had teak decking.
> 
> ...to abjectly state these are problem boats only exhibits lack of knowledge.


Well TQA, you've been schooled! Every boat has it's fans,...and detractors. The standard advice to get a survey seems good.


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## zeehag

our potential purchaser aka interested fanatic or whatever has a surveyor pending and i recommended the only honest surveyor in west coast, kjells christian. sellers shake at mention of kjels because he is HONEST. 
to be honest, as i live in mine on 1500 usd monthly., voyaging under sail with aux engine SUCCESSFULLY without rot or major issues not spawned by a HURRICANE, i know each and every tiniest corner of these. the one the seeker found is in excellent condition. all on the ohmygods list is done already and only little things remain. nothing game changing or deal breaking remains.

and naysayer with high dollar eyes and rot in brains, please realize my work is being done because i wanted to change some things around, not for rot. you are defaming character and maligning boats of others in messages to those seeking advice, and disinforming those interested souls regarding a boat you have zero knowledge of. the one who sent the pm knows of whom i speak . there was zero accuracy in your message.


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## zeehag

midwesterner said:


> As of March, her Blog shows her as still being stuck in Mazatlan Mexico with her masts down for rebuilding, with a multitude of other problems holding her there for a while.
> 
> https://sksolitarybird.org/?fbclid=IwAR0WHL2zVs0UWZ9V8RuF8yrrgs2Y2vIa2Q2dzlj9c_xMGvQItbiB56TSJt8/


question---is this sentence regarding refitting my formosa meant for a reason or merely snide... i have been in mazatlan repairing and MODIFYING items and areas in my boat. you may remember that i have repaired and rebuilt bits and parts of my boat while under way, and rebuilt engine while at anchor in barra de navidad. 
there was ZERO rot in my boat except in that part of my mizzen cracked by the cat 5 cane named patricia. 
i managed to put 3000 miles under the keel of this boat before i brought her to mazatlan for modifications... and cane damage repair. btw--i am full time misadventurer on board. oh yeah and i am 70 and solo sail. 
if you recall, the definition of a cruiser under sail is one who repairs sailboat in EXOTIC locales. 
and where is your boat these days...ditto to tqa..


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## midwesterner

zeehag said:


> midwesterner said:
> 
> 
> 
> As of March, her Blog shows her as still being stuck in Mazatlan Mexico with her masts down for rebuilding, with a multitude of other problems holding her there for a while.
> 
> 
> 
> question---is this sentence regarding refitting my formosa meant for a reason or merely snide... i have been in mazatlan repairing and MODIFYING .....
> and where is your boat these days...ditto to tqa..
Click to expand...

I think you're being overly sensitive Zee. I believe I was merely stating fact. I don't see where I am being snide.

My sentence said, "....with her masts down for rebuilding."

In your blog you have talked quite a bit about your problems finding a carpenter to complete repairs to rebuild part of your mast.

I said, "...with a multitude of other problems holding her there."

In your blog you mention needing to have the substructure under the mast step rebuilt, needing an electrician to rewire your electric panel to relocate it to the cabin to get it out of the weather from the mast, troubles getting parts to repair your fuel pump, difficulty finding affordable fuel filters, changes in carpenters due to labor problems and poor work, trying to get your engine running so you don't have to have your boat towed to a slip, questions about how you will re-step the mast without a crane, or how to cover crane charges plus the incidental and hidden charges, difficulty finding a skilled and qualified carpenter, electrician, and mechanic. (Have I hit multitude yet?).


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## zeehag

and how is this refit i am doing of any import to the questions asked by someone looking to buy a formosa... my issues are refitting a 43 year old boat... and your point is WHAT......as none of the issues of my boat have anything to do with the original build??? funny but a cat 5 hurricane direct hit didnot wreck the boat, merely cracked a mast!!.... funny but the boat being left on a breakwall in santa barbara for a week in 2000 didnot wreck or injure the boat--strange how ye cannot say that about other marques hahahahaha 
yet folks continue to spread the disinformative rumors created to keep folks away from the unique and beautiful taiwanese boats and drive potential purchasors to the more costly and underbuilt cored hull production boats... imagine that. 
so, again i ask you, what bearing does my current refit have to do with anything??? you would diss my efforts if i donot maintain my heavy displacement tradewinds cruiser, and you diss if i do. seems if you donot own one of these boats, and someone asks specifically about these boats that you should not answer, am i correct??? as you have nothing to add to the conversation. same with tqa. 
when someone specifically requests information regarding a specific boat they are going to buy, why do these unknowledgeable trolls toss in their useless 2 cents. donot know the boat, do not answer. neither tqa nor midwesterner knows these boats and neither was successfully able to answer anything the potential purchasor asked. so why show ignorance in public. 
neither response was appropriate and neither response was made with the potential purchasor in mind. 
so, midwesterner, what was your specific reason for calling out a refit in progress when you know good and well there is no reason other than ignorance on your part and an innate desire to continue to be a troll in a conversation in which you hold no cards. you know good and well that refits are necessary occasionally and you are also aware that older boats which have never been refit in 43 years are in direst need of same... they donot magically redo selves. cracks in a mast caused by a category 5 hurricane donot repair selves. 
so, midwesterner, i ask again, what relevance is my refit in the conversation between me and someone asking about these boats.... N O T H I N G WHATSOEVER. i DO know every square inch of these jewels of the sea.
and , por lo puesto, my masts are not both down. one is repaired and the main mast is standing and rigged. after an idiot installed a second battery bank and created a battery acid spill onto my mizzenstep, it was necessary to replace said step. and as i have asked--what relevance is it to the purchase of any other boat, much less a formosa--these are not innate issues they are issues created by aftermarket modifications irrelevant to purchasing of a well found boat. 
not one of my repairs has any thing to do with original build, which was excellent. there is nothin gwrong with the construction of these beautiful ketches. so. your point is WHAT........


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## midwesterner

zeehag said:


> and how is this refit i am doing of any import to the questions asked by someone looking to buy a formosa... so. your point is WHAT........


Read the whole post Zee. The original poster wanted to get in touch with you, maybe he wants to see your boat. He asked if you were still in Southern California. I told him you were in Mexico and likely to be there for a while because of repairs and your engine currently being down. That's all. You can climb down out of your rigging and quit throwing cat turds at me.


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## TQA

Zee I think you will find that most early Formosa 41s did come with 

screwed teak decks

wooden masts

black iron tanks as these had a life of around 20 years at best they would most likely have been replaced by now. But you need to be on the lookout for the bodged ones where bladders have been fitted inside the original or the top cut off and glass laid up inside. 

that was the baseline model.

If buying an old one you would want one where the deck problems were fixed, the wooden masts replaced with ali and the original black iron tanks replaced with stainless ali or best of all plastic. 

When I was looking for my forever boat 10 years ago the Formosa 41 was on my list of possibles along with the CSY 44 and other similar heavyweights. I looked at several Formosas and the only one I would have considered had had over 200,000$ US spent on it over and above the original 100.000 purchase price. The seller had invoices for every penny. He needed to get 250,000 to cover his loans and would not budge from that figure. It was still for sale years later. 

I finished up buying a much lighter and more nimble boat a New Bombay Trading Company Explorer 44, the center board version. It will tack with just the mainsail up in light airs which is just as well as I have had starter motor issues on several occasions.


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## midwesterner

TQA said:


> Zee I think you will find that most early Formosa 41s did come with
> 
> screwed teak decks
> 
> .


The original poster said that the teak has already been removed and the deck recored, on the boat he's looking at.


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## capta

I think it is really important that people not buy a boat for offshore cruising with their heart, but their head!
Sure there are many head turner boats out there, but so many are not the best design for cruising. Having enough storage, great ventilation, sitting fairly comfortably in a poor anchorage and whether the boat hobby horses so much sleeping in the aft cabin underway is nearly impossible, are all things to consider and ask about when considering a liveaboard boat. Way back I looked at several beautiful classics (tears in your eyes beautiful) from Alden and Herreshoff and not one would have been a good cruising boat.
Never mind that in just 15 short years after the Formosa was designed sailboat designs improved radically. When I bought my first big boat just about the only thing on the market were full keel heavy displacement boats like the Formosa. Today you have literally thousands of choices for better sailing, less maintenance, and boats which are cheaper to operate.
So, step back for just a moment and think about the importance of how the boat you are thinking about buying will suit your needs, not so much how she tugs on your heartstrings and looks.


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## zeehag

the difference between yesterdays beauty and grace to todays cored hulls and space is irrelevant. many folks enjoy the older boats performance., take an island packet 41 vs formosa 41. i know family just did this. they love the interior space. the boat doesnot sail as well as formosa 41. 
oh yes you can argue this and you can argue that but the reality is the folks who are attracted to these boats actually use their boats in weather. they were designed to sail tradewinds and they do that quite nicely. 
modern designs are not all for the better. 
solid hulls vs cored hulls--i prefer the solid hull. i prefer the less modern ability to repair my boat without requiring a fiberglass mold. i prefer the individuality and character of my graceful antique as it sails upright in 60 plus knots chubascos....
opinions are a dime a dozen--and everyone has an opinion. 
until one has owned and or sailed these beauties significantly one spouts only opinion. there are many nitpickers who have never sailed these but have quite the opinion.


ps midwesterner---- the poster and i have enjoyed nice conversation regarding the specific boat he is considering. DESPITE yours and tqas negativity and opinions.

tqa-- your OPINION is out of touch. another exhibition of opinion without reality. as each boat is created individually, each boat is different. duh.
wood masts-- preferable to aluminum. easily repaired as i already know, and character items. having owned aluminum and wood--i will stay with wood masts. when issues occur, those issues are fairly easily repaired


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## capta

I've known these and sailed these boats around Frisco Bay since the first ones began arriving from the Orient. Having sailed a few different ones through 'hurricane gulch' off Sausalito, I think your statement "sails upright in 60 plus knots chubascos...." is a bit of a stretch on reality.
At 60+ knots, if anyone sailing a 41 foot anything isn't well reefed down, then they aren't the seafarer they purport to be. Heck, even on a 100 footer you are gonna be well reefed and still probably put your rail in the water from time to time.
Don't get me wrong, I like the boats and think they lovely, but I question whether they are the best boat for ocean cruising with all the choices out there these days.


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## zeehag

capta said:


> I've known these and sailed these boats around Frisco Bay since the first ones began arriving from the Orient. Having sailed a few different ones through 'hurricane gulch' off Sausalito, I think your statement "sails upright in 60 plus knots chubascos...." is a bit of a stretch on reality.
> At 60+ knots, if anyone sailing a 41 foot anything isn't well reefed down, then they aren't the seafarer they purport to be. Heck, even on a 100 footer you are gonna be well reefed and still probably put your rail in the water from time to time.
> Don't get me wrong, I like the boats and think they lovely, but I question whether they are the best boat for ocean cruising with all the choices out there these days.


so you argue my experience. wow. we were hit by chubasco and flew for over 2 hours with less than 5 degrees heel. one report by someone using my spot tracking gps said 12.8, we saw 8.4 kts on the nav gps. 
so...diss, argue and tantrum. i know what i experienced and enjoy sailing. 
i am not the only person on htis planet who enjoys sailing these--- so keep your arguments as you need a modern production coastal cruising plastic thing. these are designed for ocean cruising and crossing oceans. they do this very well.


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## capta

zeehag said:


> so you argue my experience. wow. we were hit by chubasco and flew for over 2 hours with less than 5 degrees heel. one report by someone using my spot tracking gps said 12.8, we saw 8.4 kts on the nav gps.
> so...diss, argue and tantrum. i know what i experienced and enjoy sailing.
> i am not the only person on htis planet who enjoys sailing these--- so keep your arguments as you need a modern production coastal cruising plastic thing. these are designed for ocean cruising and crossing oceans. they do this very well.


It's like saying that one won't use GPS because one is quite happy with celestial navigation, without even *trying* GPS.
There are *undoubtably many boats out there much better suited for crossing oceans and much more importantly, are much more comfortable as a liveaboard, for the same money, given condition.
However, my point still remains, it is foolish to buy a boat with one's heart and not their head. There are many more broken dreams from buying the wrong boat for the wrong reasons than there are success stories.
Since you brought it up, have you actually crossed an ocean or two on your boat, or has your voyaging been confined to cruising the left-hand coast?*


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## zeehag

since you brought it up i have been sailing since 1955. how about you???
and since you are so happy sailing cored hulled boats in deep water, perhaps others may not see things your way. 

each and every boat has a purpose. these are designed to sail happily in the winds for which you and yours seek safety of marinas. 

you actually have no experience owning these, do you.


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## SloopJonB

I think Morgan Out Island 41's are the only boats that have had more third hand trash talk written about them than the CT / Formosa / Sea Tiger et al. Taiwan clippers formally known as "Leaky Teakies".

The bottom line on these boats is that the newest of them is about 40 years old. If it's still floating the lamination was obviously good enough. Due to their age, everything else has to be taken on a boat by boat basis.

I've seen them in every condition from liveaboard showboat to lichen covered zombie in the weeds at the back of the boatyard so attributing some sort of generic "quality" to them after all these years is absurd.

They are gorgeous, slow and extremely comfortable. They take a lot of work to maintain all the varnish. Look for one with the teak decks removed and alloy spars. All the other "bad" stuff people talk about - the tanks, wiring, chains etc. is probably long gone after nearly 1/2 century.

Make sure it is and you will have a boat for your grandchildren to love


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## zeehag

thankyou jon b... you are correct--assigning any kind of original quality now is a losers game. yet folks insist on so doing. the rumors are well ingrained and quality only shows when the rework is being done, and it is most impressive. -- 
the FACT that all items of function on these is accessible easily while under way is a strong point for continued use. there is no need for a contorted monkey as a crewman. 
each of these was individually crafted so each has individual needs. 
the only common ground of these is sailing em--- they sail great. well balanced and smooth in seas that make others cringe. 
the more sailing and the more working i get in, the more i love this boat. 
as for varnish..hahahahahahahahaha
sea water and an oil finish, takes a total of 10 hours now, used to be 6.... and all hurricane season is protected and wood remains a lovely brown all year . 
and cat wont slide off the varnished caprail, as i use no traction preventers. 
as each person enjoys a different base for beauty, there are boats enough for everyone. i find the ones disliking their set up are the ones who most loudly diss the boats of others.


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## midwesterner

zeehag said:


> ps midwesterner---- the poster and i have enjoyed nice conversation regarding the specific boat he is considering. DESPITE yours and tqas negativity and opinions.


Hag, I never offered one damn opinion about your stupid boat and I don't know why you keep lumping me in with TQA.

You don't seem to read very closely and you seem to confuse one person's post with another's. All I did was tell the OP that you were in Mexico and your boat is receiving some repairs.


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## capta

zeehag said:


> since you brought it up i have been sailing since 1955. how about you???
> and since you are so happy sailing cored hulled boats in deep water, perhaps others may not see things your way.
> 
> each and every boat has a purpose. these are designed to sail happily in the winds for which you and yours seek safety of marinas.
> 
> you actually have no experience owning these, do you.


As I said, I have sailed and maintained a few of those boats, mostly when they were fairly new, but no, I've not owned one.
Also, I said I like the boats and simply suggested that some newer designs might give more value for the money. What's wrong with that? Why get so angry? 
From my personal observation over the last 7 years in the Caribbean, many very good looking boats fair poorly as liveaboards in a less than perfect anchorages. Many of these boats I might have purchased, and there is no way to know those sorts of things about a boat unless one can rent one or get lucky enough to be there at the right time. Owners are often reticent to share the bad things about their boat. 
As for a cored hull, apparently, some cored hulls don't need to be held in such low regard. Mine survived a strike from what I presume was either a submarine or a container (more likely) in a gale on my first trip south on this boat. We were sailing between Bermuda and St T. at a pretty good clip in about 12-foot seas at the time, yet there was no damage at all, other than a chunk of the boot stripe being gone and some internal paint popping off the glass on the inside at the point of impact. Not even a visible dent in the hull.
As for your response to my question about your having actual ocean crossing experience on your boat, I believe I missed your answer.


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## zeehag

who is angry. gotta love how folks assign feelings..if you are angry , cop to it..donot assign your anger to others... 
gotta love thread drift..


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