# CS36 Merlin Model Comparison



## mysterybee (Feb 1, 2013)

Hi,

My wife and I are looking for our first cruising boat and have found two fantastic potential candidates in a 1989 CS36 Merlin and a 1990 CS36 Merlin. We've seen the 89 and it looks to be in fantastic condition, lovingly maintained with numerous upgrades.

What I'd like to get is input from more experienced CS owners. What are the traits of the Merlin? Have you encountered any significant issues? How did the design change from '89 to '90? Is there anything in particular you think I should look at closely before making an offer? Are there any CS owner clubs on Lake Ontario? What is the support structure like for this boat?

I'm ready to put down my money but am always looking for more information. If there are any CS pros out there who can help me make my decision easier, I'd love to hear from you!

Cheers!

G


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I met the designer once, Ray Wahl, I think was his name. He is a very capable designer and a nice guy. I always thought those boats were very well built.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

bobperry said:


> I met the designer once, Ray Wahl, I think was his name. He is a very capable designer and a nice guy. I always thought those boats were very well built.


Bob... the CS 36Ts (and 33, 27 and Quanta 28) were designed by Ray.. The CS Merlin 36, 40 and 44 were Tony Castro designs.

Ray Wahl (Wall?) IS a great guy, came out of Camper Nicholson and was willing to talk to me about our (originally) Nicholson boat even though he'd moved on by then.

I doubt there'd be much difference between the two merlin models.. they are nice boats. At some point they added a transom platform, that's a plus if you're comparing two of them.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Faster:
I knew that.

Or, once upon a time I knew that. Thanks for the correction. I hate not knowing.
Tony Castro is also a great designer.


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Try and send a PM to David ie Dodenja on here, He has one one here in Edmonds. Seems like a nice boat, then again, we both have boats designed by that Castro character. 

Having sailed it once, I did not find it to be a bad sailing boat. Davids did need some tuning, new sails or a recut of the main IIRC. Seems like it would be a nice boat for cruising.

Marty


----------



## mysterybee (Feb 1, 2013)

Faster said:


> I doubt there'd be much difference between the two merlin models.. they are nice boats. At some point they added a transom platform, that's a plus if you're comparing two of them.


I thought the same thing until I looked at them. The traveller in the 89 is in the cockpit, but in the 90 they moved it to the coach roof. Also, the companionway in the 89 is a ladder, but in the 90 they extended it out into a stairway over the motor.

So far we've only seen the 89, but hoping to see the 90 as soon as the snow melts enough to get to it.... (gotta love the Ontario snow belt!)

Cheers!

G


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Davids boat has the traveller in the cockpit per say. But it has been moved a bit back from where it is supposed to be. As the previous owner could not use the traveler in its intended spot with a dodger installed. This probably was noticed by the manufacture, and re[laced/designed at the factory in 90, along with the different ladder part of the equation.

Marty


----------



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

"The CS 36 MERLIN, while having similar dimensions to the CS 36 TRADITIONAL, is a completely different design. While it was being produced a purchaser had five pages of options to choose from- a Kevlar or fibreglass hull; a swim platform or regular transom; a 28 hp diesel or a 43 hp turbo; a tall or regular rig and by the end, four keel configurations (shoal, wing, deep and performance bulb). As a result, other than the 20 or so that went into charter, no two Merlins are alike.
Contruction standards were high. The hull was hand-laid fibreglass or Kevlar with balsa core above the water and both hull and deck were vacuum bagged."
CS 36 MERLIN sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


----------



## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

I know on the later models, they changed the bridge deck/companionway ladder as described above. I used to think the huge bridge deck was a waste of space, but it is actually quite useful for temporarily placing stuff when you move it below. It's also a nice perch when it's cold and rainy, and the autopilot is on.

I really like my Merlin after having her for over 3 years. She's fast, comfortable and fun.

Last Sunday we raced her in rain and sleet. Making over 6.5 knots close hauled in about 12 knots of wind. We finished the race tired and cold.

Turned on the heater, and went down below afterwards for hot chocolate, soup, and conversation. Had nice furniture to sit on too! (Missed you, Marty, you coward!)

That's my Merlin.. Fun to sail, and very comfortable


----------



## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

There is a CS owners group - CS Owners Associations Home Page
Being that they were built in Brampton there is a good local following on Lake Ontario, Lake Huron/Georgian Bay and also in Montreal & Quebec. We had a dealer network covering Maritimes, US east coast and Canadian west coast. Some of the early CS36T's were shipped to Holland. I left to manage their Long Island dealer in 1982, shortly before Raymond Wall struck out for Vancouver and prior to Tony Castro designs. Search on line and you may find more available
CS 36 Merlin - Oshawa / Durham Region Sailboats For Sale - Kijiji Oshawa / Durham Region Canada.


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

David,

No coward here, did not know there was a race. As I am NOT on CYCE's email list. I suppose I should rejoin the idjiots. but probably will not be after the **** on my face a couple of them did to the main sponsor and myself. No apologies as of yet. They are lucky I did not delete the FB page, considering I was a main person on it!

Sheryl and I were having brunch at Anthony's as we saw you all coming in. 

Marty


----------



## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

I've got a 1989 model. They changed the companionway from a ladder to the split stairs because (so I heard) on an early model the company had to do an engine change under warranty and it was a B###h to get it out. 
That said, I love mine! I do have to watch my depth as I've got the deep keel (6'3") and it has smudged bottom a few times on Chesapeake Bay.
Handles well, fast and would probably sail better with new sails. 
One thing I'm not sure I like is water tanks take up all of both settees. I'd rather have less tankage and a secure place to put my tool bags. The traveler is really not very useful in the cockpit but it's great for single handing as I can adjust the main and jib from the helm.
The Volvo 2003 is pretty reliable; doesn't have glow plugs but when it's cold you pull the engine kill out for a few seconds, then push it back in and that seems to help. (I have no clue as to the science behind THAT! Just something that was told to me)
I suspect it cuts off the fuel momentarily and allows the engine to turn w/o getting fuel and build up heat by compression.
I don't know that we'd do any lengthy cruising in her but we did 9 days last fall and loved it. Plan to do that again as well as go to New England for a month or so eventually. Could possibly see us going to the Bahamas too, we'll see.

Good boat!


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Friends of ours have a 36M and routinely spend up to 4-8 weeks cruising summers in BC.. djodenda's boat used to be in our club, the former owners still miss her (but are glad she's in good hands)

The Merlin is newer, probably nimbler and sleeker looking than the 36T but by all accounts shares her owners' loyalty and great reputation.


----------



## mysterybee (Feb 1, 2013)

Funny you listed that one, rugosa.
We viewed it on the weekend and are making an offer this week.
If all goes well, this will be our new boat.
We are very nervous and excited at the same time.

I'm grateful for the comments I've received so far, and look forward to any feedback the Sailnet community can offer us on owning and caring for a Merlin.

Pending a survey and sea trial, the Humoresque may be ours!


----------



## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

mysterybee said:


> Funny you listed that one, rugosa.
> We viewed it on the weekend and are making an offer this week.
> If all goes well, this will be our new boat.
> We are very nervous and excited at the same time.
> ...


Small world indeed -


----------



## ehmanta (Sep 12, 2006)

Isn't MainSail's boat a CS 36? you could send him an e-mail............


----------



## mysterybee (Feb 1, 2013)

ehmanta said:


> Isn't MainSail's boat a CS 36? you could send him an e-mail............


I'm sorry but I'm new here. I don't know who "MailSail" is.


----------



## ehmanta (Sep 12, 2006)

mysterybee said:


> I'm sorry but I'm new here. I don't know who "MailSail" is.


I'm sorry....it's Maine Sail..........his profile is here:
SailNet Community - View Profile: Maine Sail


----------



## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Mainesail has a CS 36 Traditional, not a Merlin Different designer.. Different boat


----------



## mysterybee (Feb 1, 2013)

djodenda said:


> Mainesail has a CS 36 Traditional, not a Merlin Different designer.. Different boat


Just now realizing that you are the person someone told me to seek out. You own a Merlin? What year? What condition? Has your boat had any significant alterations? What kind of maintenance issues have you encountered?

Cheers!

G


----------



## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Bee:

I have a 1987 Merlin that I bought 3-1/2 years ago. The boat was in good shape when I bought it. The keel was loose, which was discovered at survey, and I had it rebedded. There was also minor blistering that showed up as well. I have ignored them, and they have not gotten worse. They weren't even visible on my last haul.

There is a crack on the starboard settee, which was apparently from the water tank being filled up to quickly. There also appears to be some settling of the liner, which is common for the boat.

The only apparent alterations to the boat was the traveler was moved aft, and I have a rigid boom vang.

Personally, I haven't done much other than add a Max Prop


----------



## mysterybee (Feb 1, 2013)

Is your model a wing keel? fin? bulb?

Filling the water tank too quickly? Really? Never heard of that.

Do you have a photo of how the traveller is set up? Are you happy with its new position? Does it allow for a full enclosure under sail?

I'm considering the possibility of extending the steps in the companionway to create a less steep access. Any ideas?


----------



## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

It's a fin keel.

Filling the tank up seemed weird too. But I can see it happening. The tanks are huge (>120 Gallon for both of them) and the pipe for venting, and cross-connecting between the port and starboard tanks are only 1/2"... If you get impatient, because they are so large, you tend to want to crank up the water flow pretty high.... The hose mostly covers up the filler tube, and voila, you are pressurizing the tank.

I thought the story wasn't particularly believable at the time, but the surveyor agreed that could be the case. In my personal experience, I can see how it could happen, and I do not doubt the veracity of the previous owner

I will try and find a photo of the traveler. Not sure if I have one... I will check

Yes, the stairs are steep. I've grown comfortable with them over time. The grab rails are in a good spot, and as long as you go down facing the stairs, it's not too bad. My 82 year old father has learned to navigate them.

I have learned over several boat purchases to not mess with much until you've spent a few years with it. The wisdom of previous owners generally takes a while to become apparent.

Some pictures here
Kyrie 36 Photos by djodenda | Photobucket

Also, I forgot to mention that I had cracked stanchion bases. A common problem with the boat and a pain to fix.

Feel free to PM me, if you want to chat by phone.


----------



## mysterybee (Feb 1, 2013)

Thanks for all this, David.
The '89 has the traveller placed right in front of the binnacle, which it appears to be where yours is now. The '90 model moved it to the coach roof.

Our boat (knock on wood) is a wing rather than fin keel. Not my favorite, but the previous owner installed forward-facing sonar to avoid grounding it.

The companionway steps are fully removable so I'm hoping I can modify them enough that the angle is just a little bit flatter.... either way I won't be making any changes in the first season. Learning the boat comes first.

The boat is in great shape but appears that it has not been sailed hard in a while. Hopefully we'll be able to open her up and see if the rumors about the Merlin's performance are true.

Cheers!

G


----------



## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Yes.. that's where my traveler is...

She's fast. She likes some heel, keep weight forward downwind in light air.

She has a relatively wide groove... Play around until you find it.

And you owe us photos once you own her.

Does she have a windlass? Be curious to see the installation if so.

The short traveler is limiting. You can do quite a bit to control sail shape despite that using a rigid vang


----------



## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Oh.. and I am having an adjustable backstay and babystay added to the boat ...


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

mysterybee said:


> I thought the same thing until I looked at them. The traveller in the 89 is in the cockpit, but in the 90 they moved it to the coach roof. Also, the companionway in the 89 is a ladder, but in the 90 they extended it out into a stairway over the motor.
> 
> So far we've only seen the 89, but hoping to see the 90 as soon as the snow melts enough to get to it.... (gotta love the Ontario snow belt!)
> 
> ...


Honestly those features would not sway me one way or the other. I personally would prefer cockpit traveler, and the stairway would be nice. Both could be changed if you really wanted to without too much work. I would look at the condition and if the keel/rig combo would suit your needs best. I would worry about the things that basically can't be changed like condition, rig and keel. For me if I found a better condition one I would deal with the location of the traveler or the stairs/ladder.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

David.. babystay? Excessive pumping? or just mast shape measure?


----------



## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Faster said:


> David.. babystay? Excessive pumping? or just mast shape measure?


I want to be able to remove the babystay when I am flying the spinnaker and/or flying a big genoa. Makes it hard to tack/gybe the chute.

The mast section is pretty stout, so I doubt I will be able to bend it much, but we shall see.

Never had any "pumping", but there is some annoying shaking/vibration when the mainsail is down, and there is some wind.

The rigger recommended a 6:1 block and tackle with a snap shackle at the bottom. So, we'll try that.

If I'm making a mistake, let me know quick. Work authorized, but not completed!

I will keep you posted.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Don't know about 'mistake', but having had a baby stay its a pretty major PITA gybing. Removable is good. Our last boat was masthead double inline spreaders and did the same vibrating esp in a crosswind. Other than the nuisance factor when on board we never worried about it, and there was never an issue under sail.. YMMV


----------



## mysterybee (Feb 1, 2013)

Ok, price settled with owner. A few minor changes to the contract and we'll probably sign over the weekend.

I'm trying hard to stay calm but failing miserably. Considering getting a t-shirt that says "My Mast is Pumping", just because the phrase amuses me. Looking forward to the sea trial to see what kind of tacking angle she can manage.

My history with charter boats has not given me a great deal of expectation wrt to upwind performance. Hopefully, my own boat will be better.


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

David, 

BEFORE you put said baby stay on your boat, come out for a sail with me, you will NOT want a BS afterwards, excepting if you only use a 110 or smaller, or a really light cloth like my drifter. Otherwise, YOU NEED a person forward to move a genoa larger than 130 or so around the baby stay while tacking, or it can and will get caught, and one will need to go forward to un catch the genoa.

I have thought of a removable BS for my boat, but two boats like mine have lost masts locally. Not sure if it is due to a lighter mast sizing, or some due to some wood under the mast base that starts to rot. OR a combo there of. An adjustable stay would be nice to give the mast a bit more bend. BUT< I can adjust my mast enough with the back stay.

MBee, Yes David is teh person I mentioned as did Faster earlier in the thread that has a Merlin. A good guy, despite moving his boat closer to the shore vs being across from me......not sure if his beer supply gets emptied as much any more.....but that is another story.

Marty


----------



## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Marty:

The boat came with a babystay.. It's just connected to the deck with a turnbuckle.. I remove it when i have a big genoa up or am flying the chute.. The reasons I described above are why I want to be able to disconnect it easily.

Sorry that my beer supply is less convenient to you and your crew. Just stop by, though, and beverages will be provided.


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

David,

I did not realize you had a baby stay. So yes, a removable adjusting one would be nice to have. I've seen that done on another boat like mine. pretty slick actually. I recall a 4-1 being used. Then again, my mast is just a bit smaller than yours!

Marty


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

The fracturing under the dinette/settee could have been caused by filling the starboard water tank too fast as the vent is a little small but not necessarily.
The same fractures can also be indicative of liner movement. if the fractures are confined to that area you may be all right. but you have to check a little further.

If you see the fractures at the settee, you then look for hairline fractures in the liner around the mast step, If you see fractures at the mast step you must next look for any sign of movement (downward) of the transverse frame member immediately aft of the mast then look along the bottom of the starboard saloon bulkhead for any sign of movement. If you see all four signs, you have liner movement.

I have attached a photo of very typical fractures at the dinette. If there are no fractures here then you have nothing to be concerned about.

Some of these boats have had shifting liners for years without any related failures, it's still a pretty strong boat but it's best if you are aware.

Also look at the trailing upper edge of the keel (lead) for filler or what looks sort of like like corrosion. There were some issues with poor lead alloy from Mars (the keel mfg.)


----------



## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Thanks, BoatPoker...

Let me take some pictures... I'll post them. 
I don't think I have the issues you described, but would be grateful for your input.

David


----------



## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

djodenda said:


> There is a crack on the starboard settee, which was apparently from the water tank being filled up to quickly. There also appears to be some settling of the liner, which is common for the boat.
> 
> Personally, I haven't done much other than add a Max Prop


Ah HA! I too have a crack in the starboard settee. Prev. Owner said it was from a rather heavy crew member that got tossed in rough weather. Always thought that seemed odd. I suspect your reasoning is much more accurate!
And I too looked around for other hairline fractures; none to be found.

And I too plan to change over to a Max Prop this season. What size did you get; 17x14?

My boat also came w/ a baby stay; detachable and rigged w/ a 4:1 line.

My mainsheet had what I suspect was the original 4:1 setup; I've seen upgraded to a 6:1. Much easier on the back! And I'm considering putting a fine tune on that! Kept the original setup/sheet for backup as well as clipping on to the boom and using it as a hoist.


----------



## mysterybee (Feb 1, 2013)

djodenda said:


> Does she have a windlass? Be curious to see the installation if so.


Photo of the windlass taken during the boat tour attached.

Contract changes have been approved by owner. We'll be signing tonight.... aided by a few very dry martinis.


----------



## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

mysterybee said:


> Photo of the windlass taken during the boat tour attached.
> 
> Contract changes have been approved by owner. We'll be signing tonight.... aided by a few very dry martinis.


Thank you for the picture.. Does the windlass protrude above the anchor hatch when it is closed?

And congratulations!


----------



## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

sailordave said:


> And I too plan to change over to a Max Prop this season. What size did you get; 17x14?
> 
> My mainsheet had what I suspect was the original 4:1 setup; I've seen upgraded to a 6:1. Much easier on the back! And I'm considering putting a fine tune on that! Kept the original setup/sheet for backup as well as clipping on to the boom and using it as a hoist.


I will validate my Max Prop size and settings for you. You have the original Volvo 2003 engine, right?

My mainsheet is 6:1


----------



## mysterybee (Feb 1, 2013)

djodenda said:


> Thank you for the picture.. Does the windlass protrude above the anchor hatch when it is closed?
> 
> And congratulations!


No, it all closes up very neatly. He's also built out an anchor mount and railing out over the bow (photos with windlass hatch open and closed attached) ..... and thanks!

Oh, and yes you are seeing what you think you are seeing. He somehow managed to bend the anchor.


----------



## mysterybee (Feb 1, 2013)

The boat is also equipped with an Espar diesel-powered interior heating system.


----------



## mysterybee (Feb 1, 2013)

.... and teak cockpit decks (shown) and corner seating (shown) and removable bug screens for all the hatches (shown) and customized propane lockers under the helm seat for the stove and barbeque (shown).


----------



## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

mysterybee said:


> No, it all closes up very neatly. He's also built out an anchor mount and railing out over the bow (photos with windlass hatch open and closed attached) ..... and thanks!
> 
> Oh, and yes you are seeing what you think you are seeing. He somehow managed to bend the anchor.


I'd be grateful to hear your experiences with the windlass.. I'm wondering if there is enough space below the windlass for the chain do come off cleanly..


----------



## mysterybee (Feb 1, 2013)

djodenda said:


> I'd be grateful to hear your experiences with the windlass.. I'm wondering if there is enough space below the windlass for the chain do come off cleanly..


As soon as I have some, I'll share them.

In exchange, I'd be curious to know if you employed a de-naming/re-naming ceremony for your boat. It appeared to me in your photos as if the name of the boat had been changed. I will eventually be needing a similar ceremony.


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

its so cold even the dog does not want to go out today so with time on my hands I thought you guys might like to see a fairly typical Merlin survey report.

This particular one did not have the fracture issues at the settee but many of the other issues are fairly common.


----------



## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

mysterybee said:


> As soon as I have some, I'll share them.
> 
> In exchange, I'd be curious to know if you employed a de-naming/re-naming ceremony for your boat. It appeared to me in your photos as if the name of the boat had been changed. I will eventually be needing a similar ceremony.


Fair enough..

The boat was originally named "C'est La Vie". I renamed her to "Kyrie".. My past four keel boats have all been named "Kyrie", which is a Greek word that means, more or less, "Lord"... More relevant is that the "Kyrie" is a song that is used in many Christian worship services, where the congregation asks for God's mercy. For me, it's the perfect name for my little boat in the big water.

Very few people "get" the name, but it's really special when they do.

Then there's the whole "Mister Mister" reference, that I don't feel the need to discuss. 

As far as a naming ceremony, it was simple. It involved the sacramental depressing of the keyboard, where I ordered the vinyl letters from Boat US, as well as the hour of contemplation where I figured out the right placement.

There has been much discussion of naming ceremonies on Sailnet. Search away!


----------



## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

djodenda said:


> I will validate my Max Prop size and settings for you. You have the original Volvo 2003 engine, right?
> 
> My mainsheet is 6:1


Yep. Volvo Penta 2003

My buddy has a CS 40 w/ the Turbocharged version and the same MS2 tranny. His tranny went out on the way from Newport back to the Chesapeake after last year's Annap/Newport race. Turns out you can't get MS2 parts! Had to find another tranny and scavenge the parts. But his boat has been ridden hard.

Baby your engine/tranny!


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

mysterybee said:


> Is your model a wing keel? fin? bulb?
> 
> Filling the water tank too quickly? Really? Never heard of that.
> 
> ?


Happens on lots of boats. The PO of our boat cracked our settee too by overfilling the tank and blowing it up like a balloon. The tank overflow / vent simply can't keep up with 100 PSI street pressure. Good news is the tank survived just fine and the crack is under the settee cushion and is cosmetic only so no big deal..


----------



## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

Here's mine. Bought her in 1988, still have her. Hull number 36, Hydrokeel. Been south a few times but she stays in Lake Ontario now. A great boat. Got rid of the Volvo 2003 after the first trip south. Yanmar 3GM30F now.


----------



## mysterybee (Feb 1, 2013)

H Vasco,

She looks beautiful. May I ask why you replaced the Volvo engine? I've seen a 1990 model with the engine replaced as well. I haven't heard anything bad about the Volvo.

Do you have more photos of the boat I could see?

Cheers!

G


----------



## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

mysterybee said:


> H Vasco,
> 
> She looks beautiful. May I ask why you replaced the Volvo engine? I've seen a 1990 model with the engine replaced as well. I haven't heard anything bad about the Volvo.
> 
> ...


The Volvo 2000 series were the worst engines Volvo put out. A quick search will tell you all you want to know.


----------

