# Which C&C sailboats have balsa cored hull?



## TSOJOURNER

Good morning everyone,

I am considering getting into a cruising sailboat and after months of looking around I have my eyes set on C&C's.

I like the 33' the 34' which has great lines and the hard to find 35' but wan't to avoid a cored hull.

Sources on the web are not clear as to which models and years have cored hulls.

I know that cored hulls that have been taken care off will have no issues, but being "old" boats I don't want to take the risk, just avoid the extra thought.

Can anyone tell me which are cored and which are solid fiber by year and model?

thanks!


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## boatpoker

All C&C's over 32'


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## paulk

C&C was one of the first to go with cored hulls and decks as well. I believe the Mega may not have coring, but it also doesn't have the positive reputation of other C&C designs. You may be able to find a Pearson w/o coring, but then...it won't be a C&C.


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## TSOJOURNER

I just read this on another post:

""""Actually the two 33s represent two generations of design and are very different boats. The 33 mark I is a second generation C&C, while the 33 Mark II and 30 Mark II are third generation. 

All C&C designs (except Landfalls) are performance boats positioned towards to the racing end of the racer/cruiser spectrum, although they can be cruised if you are comfortable with the limited amenities for the size.

The second genration designs (and first for that matter)have solid glass hulls constructed like the proverbial brick ****house - I remember humming along at 7 knots under spinnaker when we bounced our C&C 30 Mark I over a rock, actually knocked everyone of their feet!, leaving a fist-size knuckle in the leading edge of the lead keel. Took about 30 minutes to fill the knuckle the next Spring.

In the third generation boats C&C went for greater performance (and lowered costs) by coring hulls. These hulls can''t take abuse like the older ones, and if damaged, can become expensive repair jobs for subsequent owners. No criticism of C&C here, just the risk of most cored bottoms.""""

Stating that the first generation 33 was solid. On the other hand a review by practical saolor (I believe it was) states that the 33 only used balsa on the forward panels of the 33 hull.

Still not clear.

Is there a way to obtain a build plan for the 33 mkI, mkII and mkIII?

Also how can one test a hull to check if its cored or not?


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## CBinRI

If you spend some time on the cncphotoalbum.com website, they have brochures for virtually all of the old C&Cs, which will tell you if they are cored.


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## boatpoker

George Cuthbertson (one of the "C's" and lives down the street), Jack Moles VP of Sales C&C, Rob Maurice ( another VP at C&C ) Nick Bailey Production Manager of C&C (now the fiberglass guy at DIY magazine ). I deal with all of these people on a regular basis and all have told me and about 200 C&C surveys have confirmed that all above 32' are cored below the waterline to within about 12" of center.


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## Valiente

boatpoker said:


> All C&C's over 32'


Not necessarily, if you stretch your definition to C&C designs. My Viking 33 is solid hulled, as are the Ontario 28 and 32s, I believe. Balsa decks without proper solid F/G "thru-deck hardware pads", however, are pretty well universal.


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## boatpoker

The question was I believe about C&C (built) boats not C&C designed boats

PS this does not include the FRP and steel powerboats they built


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## sailingfool

Boatpoker, you have some inaccurate information.

That was an old post of mine quoted above. The first and second generation C&C were solid glass hulls, then C&C introduced hull coring, generally in new models for "77-'78 and after.. It is a little tricky to figure out what generation a model fits into, but the following models are all glass: Mark I 24, 25 27, 30, 33, 35, 38, and Mark II 35. Some models I've lost track of...but the 34, 36 and newer models were cored.

You can determine whether a hull is cored by looking for the change in laminate thinkness that occurs where the coring is present. If you can follow the inside of the hull down from the deck joint, where coring is used, you will see a distinct ridge ( same with a deck...).


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## Valiente

Boatpoker, here's my backup:

Sailing Magazine

"The 35 predates C&C's extensive production of cored hulls, and the hull is made of relatively thick, solid, hand-laid-up fiberglass. However, the deck is composite with a balsa core. The hull and deck are joined on a standard flange and bonded chemically and mechanically."

To my knowledge, pre-1975 C&C and C&C designs had solid hulls and cored decks. C&C had committed its entire line to cored hulls by 1980 or so, but there are plenty of solid hull cruiser-racers out there from the late '60s until the switchover. The very popular C&C 35 Mk. 1 appears to have been exclusively solid FRP in the hull (I am familiar with this boat from my club, as they tend to contain Atomic 4s, even now).

C&C 35-1(REDWING)

The C&C 30 Mk. 1 is also uncored: C&C 30

I would say this holds for the C&C 27 Mk. 1 as well, as cored hulls in 1970 would have been quite advanced for that price point.


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## boatpoker

Obviously Sailing Magazine Knows more than the people (George, Rob, Nick &Jack) that built the boats. Perhaps those were built on the night shift when George went home.


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## tommays

1970 MARK I

I sail on one the hull is solid with NOW recored decks 

There are 2 boats like this that Britton Chance did 7' draft keels,rudders and double spreader rigs for IOR


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## sailingfool

boatpoker said:


> Obviously Sailing Magazine Knows more than the people (George, Rob, Nick &Jack) that built the boats. Perhaps those were built on the night shift when George went home.


Boatpoker,

For sure, someone is confused and unknowing, and I agree with you that is probably not likely to be the any of the principals from C&C, which leaves us with...you. Whatever one of them may have said is getting jumbled in your recounting.

You can poke around the original C&C literature at C&C Resource Center to clarify what you may have heard, here for example is a quote from the C&C brochure for the C&C 35 Mark II:
"*HULL *
Single unit fibreglass using alternate 
layers of hand layed fibreglass mat and 
roving with additional glass in high stress
areas. Bulkheads are marine grade
plywood, taped and bonded to hull."


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## boatpoker

Having several articles edited to the point of incomprehensible dribble and several interviews that were reported entirely different to what I actually said I don't trust magazines as much as you do. Call George


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## Valiente

Boatpoker.

I've been on some of these boats. I've helped guys work on them. The older C&Cs I've seen up close have had solid hulls, including mine and the two C&C 35 MK 1s I've been on. We hold the C&C regatta at our club. We see a lot of C&Cs, including the older ones. Core problems with the deck are the number one issue with old C&Cs, but core issues in the hulls are less so.

I didn't need to ask George to know this, but if I see him at our club (I'm at NYC) and he's there now and again, I'll ask him personally, OK?


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## pdqsailor

Yes the 35 Mk 1 was a solid glass hull with no core in it but it also was an early 1970's design. C&C pioneered balsa construction - the very first boat ever built with a balsa core was Red Jacket - the custom 39 that won the SORC and put C&C on the map. The 38 Mk 1 however (mid 1970's) was a balsa cored hull. All early larger C&C's were balsa cored and the smaller boats became balsa cored to save weight. 

C&C had to go through some hoops to keep performance numbers up while still installing full cruising interiors in their boats in the late 1970's and into the 1980's. Cored hulls were one aspect but deep sumps and deep draft boats were another part of the mix to keep stability up, performance built in and still have nice interiors for comfort so sales were maintained. C&C for it's time was at the forefront of sailboat engineering and design and the fact that so many of their boats are still fulfilling their function to this day is remarkable and beyond what the builders expected. Part of the reason for the demise of so many builders was this problem. How would you like to be in a business where anything you ever built is competition for anything you currently or will ever build again. 

The engineering concept behind cored hulls was to have a relatively light structure that did not deform (was stiff) when subjected to the impact of being driven through waves. The two skins being separated by a core was how this was achieved. 

C&C's were real sailing boats and very unlike much of the shlock that is produced today where they take a queen sized berth and build something that resembles a boat around it. Never mind if the mast is too short the keel not deep enough, it has no winches and only two small sails that roll up to make it "easy" - these idiots took sail out of the word sailboat. They are too high, too wide too slow and older C&C's sail circles around them yet people buy this junk.


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## pdqsailor

Yes the 35 Mk 1 was a solid glass hull with no core in it but it also was an early 1970's design. C&C pioneered balsa construction - the very first boat ever built with a balsa core was Red Jacket - the custom 39 that won the SORC and put C&C on the map. The 38 Mk 1 however (mid 1970's) was a balsa cored hull. All early larger C&C's were balsa cored and the smaller boats became balsa cored to save weight. 

I don't know if the 35 Mk II was cored or not but the Mk III is cored. 

I think the 33 Mk II (Yanmar diesel) is cored but the 33 Mk I (A4 with V drive) is not. 

I don't think the 34 was cored. 

I am not sure about the 32 but it is not that great a boat anyway. 

This neighbourhood is the engineering dividing line on size vs function on the question. 

C&C had to go through some hoops to keep performance numbers up while still installing full cruising interiors in their boats in the late 1970's and into the 1980's. Cored hulls were one aspect but deep sumps and deep draft boats were another part of the mix to keep stability up, overall weight limited, performance built in and still have nice interiors for comfort so sales were maintained. C&C for it's time was at the forefront of sailboat engineering and design and the fact that so many of their boats are still fulfilling their function to this day is remarkable and beyond what the builders expected. Part of the reason for the demise of so many builders was this problem. How would you like to be in a business where anything you ever built is competition for anything you currently or will ever build again. 

The engineering concept behind cored hulls was to have a relatively light structure that did not deform (was stiff) when subjected to the impact of being driven through waves. The two skins being separated by a core was how this was achieved. 

C&C's were real sailing boats and very unlike much of the shlock that is produced today where they take a queen sized berth and build something that resembles a boat around it. Never mind if the mast is too short the keel not deep enough, it has no winches and only two small sails that roll up to make it "easy" - these idiots took sail out of the word sailboat. They are too high, too wide too slow and older C&C's sail circles around them yet people buy this junk. How many of these boats will be around in twenty five years time? When they are no longer worth fixing some poor guy is going to have to take a chain saw to what is left of them.


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## Guzzi

Gee, I'm glad I didn't ask the question!
Lots of opinions on this issue.
I guess the jury is still out.

Our original poster is probably as confused as me.


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## TIKI TIME

I own a 1986 C&C 33 MKII, to quote the original owners manual: Endgrain balsa core is used in the hull and in all horizontal area of the deck. As far as the other C&C's I can't help. I can however, suggest you ask this question on the C&C owners web site. Some of those guys know C&C's like the back of their hand. C&C Yachts - C&C Photo Album & Resource Center
By the way, I love my boat, beautiful lines and sails like a dream.

Good luck in you search!


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## cnc33voodoo

I own a 1976 c&c 33 mk1.
I always thought the hull was solid glass until last year when I installed a thru hull fitting and saw coring.I also replaced all thru hull fitttings above the water line and saw no coring.The deck is cored and I have $6000 reasons why I wish it wasnt.
Where I installed the thru hull below the waterline the fibreglass on both sides of the coring was thick.Im not worried and neither should the op.These boats were well built.


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## junkmeister

My son owns a C&C Corvette (31') and I know it has a solid hull but the deck is Balsa Cored. I know because I've helped him with the rebuild of the boat.

Larry.


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## KeelHaulin

pdqsailor said:


> All early larger C&C's were balsa cored and the smaller boats became balsa cored to save weight.


This is not necessarily true. The "Redline" 41 was not a cored hull; and it's successor the Newport 41 (the same hull mold as the Redline 41) is not a cored hull either.

I do agree that many of the C&C hulls were balsa cored; but they were done very well and were not just thin sections of fiberglass on the outside of the coring. Red Jacket is still sailing on it's original layup with no core problems (core section testing eventually stopped for lack of finding any wet core).


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## avazquez

*Redline 41 is a Beauty.....*

Yes Redline 41 was/is a beauty I almost buy one a couple of years ago...


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## yogisailor

we were avoiding balsa cores also till a broker explained that the fiberglass adheres better to the balsa wood than the foam cores. That means that a hard bump at the dock may be less likely to detach the fiberglass layers from a balsa core than from the foam core.

just something to think about.


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## boatpoker

I simply said "beware" of balsa bottoms. No balsa bottom boat should be surveyed until it is out of the water at least 24 and preferably 48hrs. There are many sound balsa bottoms out there but there enough with rotted core (and more each year) to warrant my warning. Nothing lasts for ever and FRP is hygrophobic.


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## yogisailor

*and we are still avoiding balsa cores....no matter what the broker said*



boatpoker said:


> I simply said "beware" of balsa bottoms. No balsa bottom boat should be surveyed until it is out of the water at least 24 and preferably 48hrs. There are many sound balsa bottoms out there but there enough with rotted core (and more each year) to warrant my warning. Nothing lasts for ever and FRP is hygrophobic.


yeah - are you ever right.

balsa cores will rot and plastic won't - delamination can be fixed a lot more easily on the plastic insulation cores than balsa cores.

best not to bump into anything anyway.

didn't know about the 24-48 hour wait - thanks for the info.

any advice on foam core boat haul outs - no time limit there I presume? worst case scenario on moisture being the moment the boat comes out of the water - a moisture meter will pick up the most moisture then?


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## KeelHaulin

No; a moisture meter will not work properly below the waterline when the boat is first hauled; even 24-48 hours is not long enough. Using moisture meters below the waterline is iffy at best; unless strict guidelines are adhered to.

See my post here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...3420-c-c-38-vs-cs-36-merlin-3.html#post588704


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