# Just had a "break-through" with wife



## TSOJOURNER

Hi,

I just had a "break-through" with my wife and wanted some advice on how to capitalize on it. 

A little background first: My wife is not the adventuresome sort. She can't really swim and until now has had zero interest in sailing. I currently have the boat on a cradle in our backyard in the 'burbs. She tolerates it but has joked about it being her "new flower planter." She's also afraid of heights, so refuses to climb the 8' up the ladder to look at it. So far, her only expressed interest in the boat is for sunbathing and fishing (oddly, she likes to fish and I don't). My children (6 and 8) on the other hand love the boat and can't wait to put it in the water.

Just the other day, though, I mentioned a thread I read on this board about a man who sailed to the Carribean for four months and how much fun he had and how he moored at resorts for low fees. She then asked if my boat ( a Soverel 26) would be able to sail to the Carib from the Great Lakes. I told her that for that type of distance I would prefer a larger boat (I said 34 foot). She thought 26 was big enough and I said we could vacation around the Great Lakes for a few years first. Somehow she all of a sudden was interested. She started asking when I'd be done with the work to launch and how much was dockage, etc.

I need to know, from the ladies, what is going on and how to keep her interest in sailing. I think that she is not really interested in the whole sailing and sailboat part of it, but in the family time/vacation/liesure aspect - I guess lifestyle is a good word. My tentative plan - once I'm in the water - is to start off taking the boat out by myself and then with my (more adventuresome) kids - they'll be 8 and 10 by then. Once I get her out, I'll make sure that there is either an activity planned, such as fishing, or a destination - my Aunt has a beach nearby and there are some nice port towns not too far away. I want to make sure that there is something "fun" planned besides sailing - I'll handle that kind of fun on my own or with my kids. Once she's more accustomed, then we'll head out to the islands or further destinations for weekending.

So what do you think, and what should I do? Thanks in advance.


----------



## Soontobecruiser

It sounds like you are on the right track although I have always loved the water and I have enjoyed sailing from day 1.

One thing that I often hear about being a problem is that some husbands are impatient with their wives while learning and sailing and it often end up turning the wives off. I am very fortunate that my husband is extremely patient and wiling to teach me anything I want to learn. 

I am not saying that we don't have our moments, but they are few and far between.

The other thing that might help is to have some of your friends go out with you and make it a social thing, if you have the room to do so.


----------



## denby

Tom,

No one can figure out females, don't even try.


----------



## HerbDB

My wife likes the cruising aspect of sailing. She can handle the boat and relieves me when necessary, but prefers to help me get away from the dock and settle back with a glass of wine or cup of coffee and just relax.

She was a little wary of taking a long trip, but agreed to make the trek from the Chesapeake to the Bahamas. We had a wonderful time and met a lot of great people. Here is a picture log of our trip. Hope it helps get her excited.

Split Decision


----------



## Mimsy

My suggestion would be to enroll her in a women only weekend ASA course. Having a bit of confidence in your own ability to work with the wind, water and boat in order to get moving is a huge help in instilling a love of sailing. Knowledge is power after all and self confidence is a wonderful thing to have.

The women only courses are also great because it will allow her to socilaize with other women who are starting off in the sport. You know how we all like to go to the bathroom in groups? Turns out we like to be in groups for lots of things.


----------



## bloodhunter

Tom, 
First of all, follow Mimsy's advice. My wife took a weekend course from Womanship (don't know if they're in your neck of the woods but if so my wife and I highly recommend them) right after we bought Enchantress and it really helped her confidence in handling what was a much bigger boat than she'd ever sailed. 
After we got Enchantress we sailed her for a season to see just what fixes, upgrades and improvements we needed to make. Then I had her on the hard for a year while I did the work.
This is what my wife told me had to be fixed:
The head -- she could not stand the smell and the fact that you had to manually pump it out. I replaced it with and Vacuflush (and a freshwater tank all its own) and a bigger holding tank. I replaced the hoses and washed the whole area out with Lysol to eliminate the problem. 
The sink and the fresh water -- the stainless sink was pitted and in bad shape and the water, despite the filter, did not taste good. I replaced the sink with an acryllic sink from Home Depot ($69.95 on sale), replaced all the hoses in the system and got a Seagull water filter (IMHO the best but expensive) and solved that problem. 
Fans and ventilation , especially in the galley. Since I was completely redoing the electrical system (AC and DC) it was no problem to put in fans. also put in more opening ports. 
Cleaning the boat: I hired a crew to throroughly clean the boat. It wasn't as clean as my wife liked buit it made it possibel fopr her to finish the job without too much effort.
I taught how to use both the paper charts and the GPS so she could always tell about where we were.
Finally we moved the boat to the nicest marina on the Chesapeake.
Future improvement, much bigger primary winches. She cannot handle the big genoa with the winches we have so now when I sail with her is use the 100% jib. But for safety sake both of us need to be able to crank the sails.
My wife now can't wait for me to get home on Friday so we can take off for the boat.
Don't know how much of this will apply to you but if you pay attention to her needs and make sailing easy and pleasant you can't go wrong


----------



## Mimsy

Just wanted to add that a full on, over night weekend women's course can be upsold by reminding her that the kids can't go. A bit of "me time" is an awesome selling point. Throw in a massage and I doubt you will hear any misgivings about the adventure...


----------



## labatt

Alternatively, enroll her in a co-ed ASA liveaboard course. When my wife got interested in sailing, she went to Bluewater Sailing School in FL for a week. She said the last thing she wanted to do was spend a week on a boat with all women! Of course, she's not your ordinary chick - she does the diesel work, the plumbing work (including replacing our head and unclogging our waste hoses) and a lot of the other manual labor (for example, 5 days of compounding, polishing and waxing our hull). Anyway, I digress. I'm sure your wife would hate a week in a tropical location. My wife came back all excited to get out sailing to try out everything she learned, and now we live on our boat, cruising the east coast and the Bahamas (with our kids).


----------



## chris_gee

From the ages of the kids you seem to be talking about being two years away from launching. That will occupy a lot of your time if you are working on the boat and may cause some resentment if you are not careful to set aside wife's and children's time.
I would try to make the benefits more real to her, possibly by a trip sooner, and maybe by involving her in colors etc which is a bit more difficult if like many she is wary of ladders, but not impossible.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

I'm trying to be very careful with my time management. I'm doing my best to make sure I put in a good effort on her "honey-do" list. Mostly I work on the boat while she is at work and scramble an hour before she gets home to do other chores around the house. That's the great thing about having the boat next to the house - its easy to steal an hour or so a day to work on the boat. Over the course of two years that adds up to a lot of time. I used to keep the boat at my parents' house. The round trip drive was about 45 mins, so I needed to do my work in large chunks of time which are both harder to find and create more resentment.

She's been talking about a vacation in Maine. I'm not sure if I have the time this Summer, but I will next year. She's never been there and I'm not sure what got her interested in it, but that would seem like a great opportunity to peak her interest. I was thinking Boothbay Harbor windjammer days. I'll have to be careful, though, as she might want to move.


----------



## badsanta

OhioTom said:


> She's been talking about a vacation in Maine. I'm not sure if I have the time this Summer, but I will next year. She's never been there and I'm not sure what got her interested in it, but that would seem like a great opportunity to peak her interest. I was thinking Boothbay Harbor windjammer days. I'll have to be careful, though, as she might want to move.


Send her to the Wooden Boat School in Brooklin Maine and take a sailing class, great people fantastic views. I cant wait to go back. I did the diesel class and coastal navigation. Lots of stuff to do.


----------



## Stillraining

Tom:

How about a week charter in that paradise she is yearning for to set the hook deep...

It will also give her confidance knowing a professional skipper ( not that you are not ) is in control of the whole boat handeling/navigation thing the first go around as well.....I would have had to do that if I would not have started mine out slowly power boating. Its still to early to tell if she will ever cross an ocean.

Something like this ought to do it.


----------



## sctpc

My wife's pet hate in camping on a boat is no shower, so I bought a toilet tent and portable shower takes 10 mins to set up on deck and she will now sail over night. 

You must find out her dislikes help her elevate her problems.
I like the idea of sending her to sail school mines like HerbDB`s sits back and relaxes.


----------



## happytogether

I was very afraid of heeling, to the point where I was uncomfortable. My poor husband could not even use the head since I was afraid to get behind the helm. 

I took the ASA 101 course on basic keelboat this summer. Now I am always behind the helm. My instructor taught me more in 3 days then my husband in 2 years. He knew my fear of heeling, and got me to single hand the boat in 25 knots of wind for 5 hours. Amazing what you can do when you reef (something my husband didn't understand). 

Have your wife take a course. It is the best thing.


----------



## calden

Tom:

One thing I do that really turns off my wife and kids (older teens) is that I often have little projects to do on the boat, like attach this or re-rig that - you know, little things I think of during the week that I put on my list of chores when I get to the slip, an hour and fifteen minutes away. For me, this is part of the fun of owning and understanding a sailboat - the constant tinkering and upgrading. 

But my wife really dislikes sitting in the clubhouse waiting for me - she has to chat with strangers (I love to chat), sit there with nothing to do, feels like she's wasting time, etc., even if it's for 15 minutes. And as we KNOW from being guys who like to TINKER with our TOYS, a 15 minute chore often can suddenly become an hour.

So I've learned to do a few different things:

1) forego a lot of little things that I would like to do and just skip them 
2) talk to my wife and/or kids beforehand and ask permission to take 15 or 20 minutes to do a few things before we sail, WELL BEFORE WE ARRIVE
3) make sure it only stays to that amount of time
4) find a way to get up there some other time to do these things

It's frustrating to me because hanging out at the club and tinkering with the boat, and chatting with folks as they walk by and comment on the work is all part of why I've moved my trailerable to a slip and club. But it's not for my family. And if I want to engage my family I need to put their needs foremost. If don't do this I run the risk of becoming yet another middle-aged guy having a few too many beers on his boat after a solo saturday sail. 

Carlos


----------



## sarafinadh

When she gets to that 'nesting stage' (and she will, a boat is more fun than a doll house ; -) encourage her. Do not quibble about how her cool stuff isn't what you had in mind. Don't tell her how impractical half her ideas are, she will figure it out. That's half the fun!

And I affirm that paying attention to her punch list of comforts is critical. While I never claim to be low maintenance, I figger I am one of the hardier women around. I don't cavil at doing the *yucky* stuff. But wanting a shower was my big issue. And Himself kept pointing out how impractical it would be and how little we would actually use it and how much bother it would be to use when we did. Until he figured out it isn't so much TAKING the showers... it's wanting to know that after I do the *yucky* stuff I _CAN_ if I want to... and he has put a shower, highly impractical and unnecessary, into the plan. Likewise a real head, not a portapottie, and it means a lot to me!

SO glad to hear she is getting interested... and it sounds like you are doing all the right stuff already and she is just coming to it in her own time. Have a wonderful time making it wonderful for your whole family!


----------



## NICHOLSON58

We've been doing some checking on those courses. It appears that most of the ASA schools require you to have completed the level 1&2 course before venturing into the more advanced and overnight classes. The 1 -2 course con frequently be combined. These teach basic sailing skills on small boats where there is less possibility of danger, power, injury. (cost of a mistake is a good dunking)

I agree with Mimsy. You will enjoy sailing together if you are not on pins and needles worrying about what she is thinking or about what mistake she might make. Much better to know you can rely on her to bail your but out when you need it. Otherwise, you are worse than single handed.

Women Sail offers classes in regularly scheduled cool vacation places and also will arrange to do a class on your own boat including mixed crew. Also, check the yacht clubs in your area. You may be able to find classes, find an instructor, arrange your own class program.


----------



## Georgiegirl

I've sailed since i was small, and introduces my husband to it who loves it. I belong to a Yacht club in north Wales in the UK and I am always surprised how many wives/girlfriends don’t sail because their other half has frightened them half to death. Be sneaky and take her out for sails on beautiful days and don’t talk about when it all went horrible wrong and had an awful sail. Keep everything low key and make sure her opinion is matters, There is nothing worse than in my case wanting to go to Scotland and having to go to Southern Ireland again because that’s is where he wants to go. 

Get her involved with the deck work. Show her how to start and stop the engine and how to steer the boat. Don’t do everything yourself, take the time to show her. Also, many woman, find that they just end up doing the chores they do at home in worse conditions, while the kids have fun in some cases, couples who have sailed for years find that the wife's skills are hardly up to scratch as the kids have done all the crewing work on the boat and wifey is in the galley again.

And it’s hardly a holiday if you spend Breakfast noon and dinner in the galley cooking for 4 on little more that camping stove. Have bbq ashore, meals out. Trips off the boat. Allow her time to herself there is pressure privacy on a boat. Even without kids. There is a difference between sailing and cruising. 

Read any of the book by Lyn Pardey, they are all good and give opinion from a woman’s point of view. 
Above all else have fun doing it and good luck and it’s raining in the west midland in the uk.


----------



## catamount

Build a set of stairs (at a minimum) and a "dock" adjacent to the boat in your backyard. Not only will that make it easier for your wife to get up on the boat if she is afraid of ladders, it will make a lot easier for you as you work on the boat.

Here are some pictures to give you an idea of what I'm talking about:


----------



## NCountry

Seems like everyone missed the most important thing. Your wife loves to fish! Add a couple of rod holders to the back of the boat. Sailboats are the ultimate trolling machine! She'll be next to the steering and learning to handle the sails to slow the boat down when you catch a fish is a great step towards many of the things that need to be done when underway. (Dude, your "in" is the fishing thing, take advantage of it!)


----------



## sck5

my wife was a total landlubber. I made very very sure that her first experience with boating was very very good. That meant chartering a 41 ft. boat so she had plenty of room. That meant putting her every favorite food and drink on board. That meant making damn sure that there was excellent shopping at several stops and that she had plenty of money in her pocket when she got off the boat. That meant telling her repeatedly how good she looked in boating clothes (that was very true and she knew it so no prob there)

You get the idea. First impressions matter a lot. Go all out to make it perfect. Since then she has been bugging me to go to the Caribbean so we bought a boat and are doing the Caribbean 1500 next fall. The promise of palm trees in January is what really sold her.


----------



## Waltthesalt

I agree with sailing lessons from someone other than you. A woman's course seems to work well. Next plan you outings so that you don't terrorize you wife. Pick good weather and a modest schedule so you arn't pressured to get back in questioable weather/conditions. Consider a charter in the Bahamas or other area you've got you eye on. Sharing a boat between couples can be affordable. Three or four couples on a catamaran can have great privacy.


----------



## wind_magic

Have to agree with sck5 on this one, lure her in with honey!


----------



## tip

Waltthesalt said:


> I agree with sailing lessons from someone other than you. Next plan you outings so that you don't terrorize you wife. Pick good weather and a modest schedule so you arn't pressured to get back in questioable weather/conditions.


This is where I am screwing up. What I think is normal to quiet conditions are almost frightening for my girl.


----------



## sailingdog

There is a lot of good advice here. The one about having her take a sailing instruction course BY HERSELF is a good one. Another thing to do is to go out sailing on a nice day and have her be the captain... not like this is any surprise...but let her run the boat...with you as a deck monkey. 

If you want to go cruising, I'd suggest you both buy and read Debra Ann Cantrell's book, Changing Course. 

If she likes to fish... rigging a couple of rod holders off the stern might not be a bad idea...


----------



## sailordave

NO NO NO. Women that aren't into boating and are afraid of the water will never do. They will never be completely comfortable on the boat.
Trade her in! Find a woman that likes boats, sailing and will take the helm in 25 knots the first time you go out. And when she tells everyone about the day and they say REALLY? THAT WINDY? she'll go "yeah, he's pretty good!"

Cause see, if they really like boats/sailing, they'll also love all the benefits of having a spacious (sorta) aft cabin when you take them overnight to a quiet little cove. <wink> And THAT makes the sailing all the more the better if you catch my drift!

Hell next you'll be saying she isn't really all that into um, "human intertwining"...

To those posters that have had bad experiences w/ their S.O. trying to "teach" them... I'm not sure I have the answer. GF has been a very willing learner and the EX just wouldn't have any of it. Think it has more to do w/ them and their attitudes then anything.

PS I never yell or do anything w/o first briefing on what is going to happen or needs to happen. 
And only work on one or two things at a time. We spent 20-30 min. one day just letting her take the boat out and back in to the slip while I handled the lines.


----------



## Dulcitea

*Reclaiming HerSailNet*

Is there a way to remove this---inho---midly misogonist thread to the general interest forum? Please?


----------



## sarafinadh

There is, no doubt. But this thread is about helping a woman learn to love sailing. Here seems like a fine place for it. It is all about _HerSailing_ isn't it?

And there has been a great deal of really constructive helpful advice from folks who have been there and figgured out how to get thru the blockade of fears and hesitations.

I am just really grateful that Himself, while inexperienced is game and really wants to learn. And as a note the comment about taking on too much at once is really true... I scared him to death one day by letting a wraps off more than he was comfortable with and scaring the brass ones offa him... the good news is he has since found them again and is progressing nicely. Which just goes to show that while it is most _often_ a man trying to figure out how to get his lady comfortable, it isn't _always_!


----------



## NICHOLSON58

We were agonizing about where to retire. Places we liked were too expensive or un-insurable or both. (Hurricane zones) My cousin was world sailing at the time. Lynn suggested we do what he was doing and find a boat. I always do what she tells me to. Four years later we have the Camper & Nicholson, our 100 ton credentials and are getting close to launching after a lot of re-fitting and hurricane repairs. Turns out whe is pretty good with a paint scraper and a wrench.


----------



## nickokelly

*Right on Tom*

You are on track. You definitely don't want to put your boat before your wife. That is a shortcut to sailing alone or not at all.


----------



## nickokelly

*sck5 is right*

sck5 is right about first impressions. We men have a really hard time remembering just how foreign this whole sailing concept might be for our wives, and we have totally unreasonable expectations of her.

Maybe we grew up sailing, trimmed the main on our uncle's boat, took classes in college, or maybe we've just always had an affinity for all things nautical. She on the other hand might know how to swim, and that's about it. Show her the ropes? Teach her everything you've learned in a lifetime in the course of a month or two of day-sailing? Nobody (you or her) could live up to that.

Easing her into it and making sure EVERY experience is a positive one is the ONLY way to go. What will that take? Depends on the woman. Wishing or pretending she's something that she's not (right now) is where many of us go wrong. We get frustrated or are just too lazy to do what needs to be done.

We can't teach her ourselves, so we say "she's just not into it."

We run the boat without confidence and expertise and then we say she doesn't feel "comfortable" on board.

Saying your wife just isn't into it or is too soft for life aboard are lame excuses.

The next time you are out with your inexperienced or reluctant wife, pretend that she is a paying customer. She has laid down $500 for the experience of sailing with you for the day. She wants to participate-she's not just coming along as a passenger. Would you ever raise your voice or show even the slightest frustration with a customer? How about close-reaching with too much sail up? How about snacks on board? Cleanliness? What about music? Hot cocoa at the ready for the leg home? You bet.

If she were a paying customer; someone you really wanted give the best possible experience to, you would do everything possible to make sure she had the best time ever.

Now why don't you show that same level of commitment to your wife's enjoyment of the experience? Does she owe it to you to like sailing?

The real travesty in all of this is what eventually happens to the boat and to The Dream when he isn't able to get his wife on board. In time, he'll get frustrated. He'll either sail less or not at all. He'll slowly lose ground in the maintenance battle, and he'll come to grips with the reality in a year or two or ten. Then he'll sell.

Think I'm being dramatic? Surveys show that 90% of sailboats leave their slips less than 6 times per year. Go to a downwind anchorage in the Marquesas and count the single-handers (the real ones). You won't find many. The reason? The vast majority who end up living The Cruising Dream are couples in a loving relationship. You've go to get your wife on board, or you aren't going to go.

You and your wife, _The Dreamers_, are the most important part of this whole crazy dream. Silly how much attention gets paid to boat gear when the real engine of the dream is barely running.


----------



## Dulcitea

Beautifully and lovingly written.


----------



## sarafinadh

Brilliant, Nick!


----------



## Melrna

Nick best I have seen written so far


----------



## sailingdog

Unfortunately, yelling is sometimes a necessary evil. If someone is about to do something that will endanger them or the boat, yelling is often the safest thing to do.



nickokelly said:


> sck5 is right about first impressions. We men have a really hard time remembering just how foreign this whole sailing concept might be for our wives, and we have totally unreasonable expectations of her.
> 
> Maybe we grew up sailing, trimmed the main on our uncle's boat, took classes in college, or maybe we've just always had an affinity for all things nautical. She on the other hand might know how to swim, and that's about it. Show her the ropes? Teach her everything you've learned in a lifetime in the course of a month or two of day-sailing? Nobody (you or her) could live up to that.
> 
> Easing her into it and making sure EVERY experience is a positive one is the ONLY way to go. What will that take? Depends on the woman. Wishing or pretending she's something that she's not (right now) is where many of us go wrong. We get frustrated or are just too lazy to do what needs to be done.
> 
> We can't teach her ourselves, so we say "she's just not into it."
> 
> We run the boat without confidence and expertise and then we say she doesn't feel "comfortable" on board.
> 
> Saying your wife just isn't into it or is too soft for life aboard are lame excuses.
> 
> The next time you are out with your inexperienced or reluctant wife, pretend that she is a paying customer. She has laid down $500 for the experience of sailing with you for the day. She wants to participate-she's not just coming along as a passenger. Would you ever raise your voice or show even the slightest frustration with a customer? How about close-reaching with too much sail up? How about snacks on board? Cleanliness? What about music? Hot cocoa at the ready for the leg home? You bet.
> 
> If she were a paying customer; someone you really wanted give the best possible experience to, you would do everything possible to make sure she had the best time ever.
> 
> Now why don't you show that same level of commitment to your wife's enjoyment of the experience? Does she owe it to you to like sailing?
> 
> The real travesty in all of this is what eventually happens to the boat and to The Dream when he isn't able to get his wife on board. In time, he'll get frustrated. He'll either sail less or not at all. He'll slowly lose ground in the maintenance battle, and he'll come to grips with the reality in a year or two or ten. Then he'll sell.
> 
> Think I'm being dramatic? Surveys show that 90% of sailboats leave their slips less than 6 times per year. Go to a downwind anchorage in the Marquesas and count the single-handers (the real ones). You won't find many. The reason? The vast majority who end up living The Cruising Dream are couples in a loving relationship. You've go to get your wife on board, or you aren't going to go.
> 
> You and your wife, _The Dreamers_, are the most important part of this whole crazy dream. Silly how much attention gets paid to boat gear when the real engine of the dream is barely running.


----------



## nickokelly

Thanks everyone. I just wrote a book on the subject, so the research and the words are in the front of my mind.


----------



## nickokelly

*Some men treat everything as an emergency.*



sailingdog said:


> Unfortunately, yelling is sometimes a necessary evil. If someone is about to do something that will endanger them or the boat, yelling is often the safest thing to do.


I agree with you Sailingdog. As captain, you must act quickly and decisively to keep people (then the boat) safe if danger is imminent. If that means yelling, you absolutely should and must. However, raising your voice (yelling) is universally recognized in interpersonal communication as a display of aggression or a loss of control. Either are going to make her feel uncomfortable on board the boat.

If the captain knows what he is doing, he won't have to yell. He'll be in control at all times (at or away from the helm), every action will be planned, and every operation will be executed without drama. No yelling required.

I certainly don't direct any of my criticisms at you directly, Sailingdog, as I don't know you.

I certainly have been guilty of making everything into an emergency myself. Our first cruise suffered for it. The boat was too big and I had too little experience. I raised my voice too often. We were both frustrated. We called it quits after one season of a five-year plan.

Miraculously, I got my wife to go cruising again. This time I bought a smaller boat and could thread her through the tightest and current-filled anchorage under sail alone. Made all the difference in the world.


----------



## Stillraining

Nice post Nick!


----------



## Faster

My wife and I went through the learning process together, with the help of a few experienced friends. She was not 'reluctant' but was certainly tentative to start and I recall many days when we poked our nose out of the harbour only to turn around and try tomorrow if the wind was beyond her threshold of the day.

But with caution and accommodation her threshold moved a bit higher each time and today she's a willing and able sailor who loves coastal cruising and all that entails. In fact she's happiest beating in 15-20 knots... go figure. In recent years she's become very relaxed in Caribbean island hopping type sailing down south.

I think the turning point that first summer was actually going on a week long cruise, with destinations and an objective as opposed to bashing around the bay.

In any event, 30 years, 5 boats later things are good, she still has her thresholds and I respect them (as we did this past weekend with, as it turns out, a good result)


----------



## Bene505

nickokelly said:


> Thanks everyone. I just wrote a book on the subject, so the research and the words are in the front of my mind.


OK, so where do we order the book?

Regards,
Brad


----------



## nickokelly

*Thanks for the interest, but you'll have to google me*

Thanks for the interest, but I don't think the moderators of this site would appreciate me selling books on their forum. I respect the rules and don't want to come off as a commercial jerk.

You can google me, "Nick O'Kelly." I am sure you'll find a link to me or the book out there somewhere.


----------



## nickokelly

Faster said:


> I think the turning point that first summer was actually going on a week long cruise, with destinations and an objective as opposed to bashing around the bay.


I think objectives are key. We "goal oriented" men seem all too ready to head out for whatever adventure might come. Ironic, and against stereotypical notions about men and women that having clearly-defined objectives makes our wives MORE comfortable with this sailing and cruising thing.

We tend to think that women are more risk averse than men. This is true, but not by a lot. Studies show that while we have a similar tolerance for risk, it is our respective tolerance for AMBIGUITY that shows the biggest difference. Men are much more comfortable with an unknown and unknowable future than women.

That's right guys: women are big-picture thinkers. More so than we are!


----------



## sailingdog

*It is also a universally recognized as a way of warning people of danger*... when was the last time you heard someone WHISPER "*FIRE*".... _*no, there are appropriate times for yelling*_.... On a well-run and well-found boat, those times will be far and few between, but they will occur.

I'd point out that even on the best run boat, there will be things that the captain will have no way of anticipating or controlling. One of our fellow posters on this forum, who is very well regarded and a USCG captain, got run over by a powerboat through no fault of his own. I'd imagine there was some yelling then...



nickokelly said:


> I agree with you Sailingdog. As captain, you must act quickly and decisively to keep people (then the boat) safe if danger is imminent. If that means yelling, you absolutely should and must. *However, raising your voice (yelling) is universally recognized in interpersonal communication as a display of aggression or a loss of control. * Either are going to make her feel uncomfortable on board the boat.


You can not say that every operation will be executed without drama and that a captain will always be in control... Sh!t happens...



> If the captain knows what he is doing, he won't have to yell. He'll be in control at all times (at or away from the helm), every action will be planned, and every operation will be executed without drama. No yelling required.


----------



## Melrna

sailingdog said:


> *It is also a universally recognized as a way of warning people of danger*... when was the last time you heard someone WHISPER "*FIRE*".... _*no, there are appropriate times for yelling*_.... On a well-run and well-found boat, those times will be far and few between, but they will occur.
> 
> I'd point out that even on the best run boat, there will be things that the captain will have no way of anticipating or controlling. One of our fellow posters on this forum, who is very well regarded and a USCG captain, got run over by a powerboat through no fault of his own. I'd imagine there was some yelling then... ...


I have to take offense this. If the best run boat is run by a competent captain, the **** shouldn't happen. In the case of this captain, the #1 law of the sea is to avoid at all cost the situation to begin with and take immediate action. Who was on watch and why did either Captain allow the situation to get to this point to begin with? This question begs to be asked. Any Captain with any kind of seamanship will never allow this situation to developed. If I as a Captain of an airplane showed any of these traits I would be landlocked and lose of life would happen. 



> You can not say that every operation will be executed without drama and that a captain will always be in control... Sh!t happens...


Sh!t happens because the captain lost control plain and simple. Seamanship, Seamanship Seamanship was lacking because he had no plan, he didn't anticipate, was out of his element and/or the boat was in a position that the captain put it in that it shouldn't be to begin with. Yelling is a result of insecurity from within oneself. 

Sailing is a complex sport. Unlike a motorboat, it takes skill to sail a boat well. Knowledge gained through schools, experience, bar talk, practice, practice and what I believe too crucial a plan of action written down for most situations. This includes checklists. One thing I learned in both the military and Sailtime. Just going out and winging it puts all in danger. End result, yelling at least and injury at worst. 
On crew coordination, unless you are fortunate enough to go through a CRM (crew resource management) classes, sailing with crews has been hit and miss with most boats I have been on. 
I think I have seen most things as far as crew is concerned, especially since I am a retired military pilot and a commercial airline captain. Working as a harmonious crew is difficult at best. I have sailed OPB during my racing years. Lets just say there are some boats I won't join again while others I could not wait until the next race. Same thing with my flying crews. The one great thing the military did teach me was what it took to work as a crew. Most of it was discipline, attention to detail and always have a plan for the unexpected. I think the average sailor out there lacks some or all of the qualities. This whole thing about women not sailing or joining their respective spouses on an adventure has intrigued me the most. While I understand the women's POV, at times I wonder about what are true motives. But sailing is different than most endeavours. 99% of the population doesn't want to own or sail anything unless on a cruise with a drink in their hand while on a vacation in some exotic place. 
To Nick, I have to fully agree with you on how a capt treats their guest or spouse. I always treat my guest as paying guest. It is their cruise not mine per se. I always have food and drinks to my guest likings. I always manage the boat to the lowest common denominator person on the boat. 
__________________


----------



## nickokelly

Very well said Melissa.

Listen to ATC recordings of "Captain Sully," as he was about to ditch his plane (US Airways flight 1549) in the Hudson River. 155 people aboard, $60M plane, and he had to know that commercial ditchings are almost always fatal. Any drama in his voice? None. Why? He knew exactly what to do, even when the absolute worst happened as the plane was "low and slow." Airline pilots are trained for this eventuality and tested, tested, tested-every six months, am I right on that?

Two problems with the way most men approach (pardon the pun) sailing with the hesitant or resistant or inexperienced wife:

1. They wing it (another pun, sorry) without the knowledge or expertise to handle the boat in expected conditions; or fail to anticipate conditions. 

2. They don't consider the ramifications for others on board when they lose control or "sh!t happens." He'll recover from that botched jybe quickly. She may not forget it for a long time.

Either way, I think that it comes down to not taking responsibility for the boat and all on board. Here in the US, the only requirement to own and sail a boat are a healthy bank account and a beating heart.

Sailing along at 5 knots and making Cat III approach at 160 knots are two very different things, but the same principles you mention apply. Losing control is losing control. That accidental jybe or dipping the lee rail with inexperienced passengers may not result in a loss of life, but it can kill The Dream.

Again, well said.


----------



## daydreamer92

*My five or six cents!*

I read this with interest. I like a lot of what Nick says.

I think SD has a valid couple of points. First, **** really does happen. To the best of us. Never say never, because there but for the grace of [insert your higher power of choice here] go you and all that.

I also find myself agreeing about his perception of yelling having a place. That place is limited and an exception rather than the rule: in an emergency, in a moment of great urgency as an attention getter. There is a difference between yelling a warning or an urgent instruction, and yelling out of impatience or anger or frustration.

Huge difference. Huge huge huge.

I think most Wives can understand a "Look out!" type yell vs. a Poor Teacher/Frustrated Husband type yell.

My husband has a lot more experience than I do, but if he makes our trips together unpleasant by yelling or talking down to me, that daysail is gonna turn pretty damn hostile.

(and then I kick him off MY boat. My name is on the registration, bwah hah hah  )

But if he yells because something needs my attention now, well, I get that. I might have occasion to yell too. When yelling is the exception, rather than a rule, it works far better as the attention getter it's supposed to be.

As it so happens, he's not a yeller, so if he raises his voice, I know something is amiss more than me not trimming the jib to his satisfaction.

One other observation that might have already been observed: I'd hope that anyone, man or woman, endeavoring to teach someone else would know that you don't have to literally yell to put someone off of you and the subject you're trying to teach. _If you're not having a good time teaching, they won't have a good time learning_. Be mindful of tone, expression, body language, yours and theirs.


----------



## JohnRPollard

Nick & Mel,

Good posts.

Regarding the yelling, I think you are unwittingly painting yourselves into a corner with your categorical statements. It could be based on the assumption that all yelling has an undertone of anger or admonition. But that's not always the case. It could also be a question of syntax, i.e. are we talking about _yelling_ or _shouting_, and is there a difference?

I would like to offer a counter point, based on real life experience: I have worked the mast in a solid 45 knots of wind and higher gusts, while sailing offshore with heavy seas and spray flying. At those wind speeds, the noise of the wind in the rigging, the water running past the boat, and the creak and groan at the gooseneck, is tremendous.

When you are tucking in a third reef in the dark of night, mistakes can be made that are well beyond the fault of any captain. I know I've made them as crew. In the instance I'm recalling, the captain of the vessel had to communicate a remedial action plan to me at the mast. And yelling/shouting at the top of his lungs was the only way he could do that -- I barely could hear him as it was.

Yelling like that does not reflect poorly on my captain. In fact, it showed his ability to understand the situation thoroughly, adapt to an unexpected glitch, devise a solution, and effectively communicate it for implementation in difficult circumstances.

So that's why I cringe at a categorical statement like what's being made here in this thread about yelling. Sometimes the extra volume is absolutely essential. You may never have experienced a circumstance where that was necessary, but I would urge you not to be so quick to judge others. Despite best preparations, even the best skippers can find themselves in uncharted waters. Sailing is a fluid environment.

But yes, yelling at your spouse or other crew under normal circumstances -- not good.


----------



## sailingdog

Sorry Melrna-

*I'm gonna have to call BullSh*t on this... *There are instances, like Bubb2's boat getting run over by a Searay, or the accident in Buzzards Bay a few years back where a 60' powerboat killed people on a 35' sailboat, where it really doesn't matter what the captain did. Another case in point is the Clear Lake case, which hit the courts and the sailors were exonerated...

In all three of these cases, the damage, injuries and loss of life were clearly out of the hands of the captain or crew of the sailboat.

Go ahead, please explain how any captain would have fared any differently in any of these three specific cases.... What would you have done??? The facts of these three cases are pretty much undisputed and very well known.

*While I agree that many captains will yell out of insecurity-there are plenty of good captains who do not normally yell, and if they are yelling, there is probably a damn good reason for it. *



Melrna said:


> I have to take offense this. If the best run boat is run by a competent captain, the **** shouldn't happen. In the case of this captain, the #1 law of the sea is to avoid at all cost the situation to begin with and take immediate action. Who was on watch and why did either Captain allow the situation to get to this point to begin with? This question begs to be asked. Any Captain with any kind of seamanship will never allow this situation to developed. If I as a Captain of an airplane showed any of these traits I would be landlocked and lose of life would happen.
> 
> Sh!t happens because the captain lost control plain and simple. Seamanship, Seamanship Seamanship was lacking because he had no plan, he didn't anticipate, was out of his element and/or the boat was in a position that the captain put it in that it shouldn't be to begin with. Yelling is a result of insecurity from within oneself.
> 
> Sailing is a complex sport. Unlike a motorboat, it takes skill to sail a boat well. Knowledge gained through schools, experience, bar talk, practice, practice and what I believe too crucial a plan of action written down for most situations. This includes checklists. One thing I learned in both the military and Sailtime. Just going out and winging it puts all in danger. End result, yelling at least and injury at worst.
> On crew coordination, unless you are fortunate enough to go through a CRM (crew resource management) classes, sailing with crews has been hit and miss with most boats I have been on.
> I think I have seen most things as far as crew is concerned, especially since I am a retired military pilot and a commercial airline captain. Working as a harmonious crew is difficult at best. I have sailed OPB during my racing years. Lets just say there are some boats I won't join again while others I could not wait until the next race. Same thing with my flying crews. The one great thing the military did teach me was what it took to work as a crew. Most of it was discipline, attention to detail and always have a plan for the unexpected. I think the average sailor out there lacks some or all of the qualities. This whole thing about women not sailing or joining their respective spouses on an adventure has intrigued me the most. While I understand the women's POV, at times I wonder about what are true motives. But sailing is different than most endeavours. 99% of the population doesn't want to own or sail anything unless on a cruise with a drink in their hand while on a vacation in some exotic place.
> To Nick, I have to fully agree with you on how a capt treats their guest or spouse. I always treat my guest as paying guest. It is their cruise not mine per se. I always have food and drinks to my guest likings. I always manage the boat to the lowest common denominator person on the boat.
> __________________


----------



## ottos

Melrna said:


> I have to take offense this. If the best run boat is run by a competent captain, the **** shouldn't happen. In the case of this captain, the #1 law of the sea is to avoid at all cost the situation to begin with and take immediate action. Who was on watch and why did either Captain allow the situation to get to this point to begin with? This question begs to be asked. Any Captain with any kind of seamanship will never allow this situation to developed. If I as a Captain of an airplane showed any of these traits I would be landlocked and lose of life would happen.
> 
> Wow - that is harsh, Mel. Do you know the story?
> 
> It can happen


----------



## sailingdog

daydreamer92 said:


> I read this with interest. I like a lot of what Nick says.
> 
> I think SD has a valid couple of points. First, **** really does happen. To the best of us. Never say never, because there but for the grace of [insert your higher power of choice here] go you and all that.
> 
> I also find myself agreeing about his perception of yelling having a place. That place is limited and an exception rather than the rule: in an emergency, in a moment of great urgency as an attention getter. There is a difference between yelling a warning or an urgent instruction, and yelling out of impatience or anger or frustration.
> 
> Huge difference. Huge huge huge.
> I think most Wives can understand a "Look out!" type yell vs. a Poor Teacher/Frustrated Husband type yell.
> 
> My husband has a lot more experience than I do, but if he makes our trips together unpleasant by yelling or talking down to me, that daysail is gonna turn pretty damn hostile.


Very much my point... there are different kinds of yelling, and for very different reasons. Some are acceptable, some are not.



> (and then I kick him off MY boat. My name is on the registration, bwah hah hah  )


LOL... that's perfect... 



> But if he yells because something needs my attention now, well, I get that. I might have occasion to yell too. When yelling is the exception, rather than a rule, it works far better as the attention getter it's supposed to be.
> 
> As it so happens, he's not a yeller, so if he raises his voice, I know something is amiss more than me not trimming the jib to his satisfaction.


Again, exactly what I'm trying to point out...



> One other observation that might have already been observed: I'd hope that anyone, man or woman, endeavoring to teach someone else would know that you don't have to literally yell to put someone off of you and the subject you're trying to teach. * If you're not having a good time teaching, they won't have a good time learning. Be mindful of tone, expression, body language, yours and theirs.*


Very well said.  Besides, I don't yell... I put little shock-inducing collars, like the dog training ones, on all the new crew and have a couple of remotes to zap them with when they're not behaving or listening properly.


----------



## nickokelly

*Some broad brush strokes here.*

Sorry if I painted with too broad a brush here everyone. Of course raising your voice to be heard and of course raising your voice in an emergency are necessary. I don't think any reasonable sailor will disagree with those statements.

Regardless of the reason for yelling, the perception in interpersonal communication is one of either aggression or loss of control (most of the time, I don't think that aggression really applies in sailing). That goes for yelling "FIRE," as much as it does, "GET DOWN!" In a true emergency, of course raising your voice is entirely appropriate. If there is a fire on board or a wayward sheriff's boat about to run me down, you bet I want to know. However, if you are yelling this at me, I know for sure that you are not in control of the situation. That can be good to know.

My comments were framed in terms of making a hesitant or reluctant partner feel comfortable on board. I've been on so many boats where it seemed the captain encountered an "emergency" in every maneuver. Heck, I've done it myself many times when the conditions exceeded my abilities. My wife didn't like that at all.

I learned though, and they were expensive lessons. Now I treat the whole endeavor much more professionally. It's not about kowtowing to my wife's every need. It's about remaining in control, anticipating every maneuver, staying way ahead of the boat, having a plan and a backup plan. It is about leadership. I literally never raise my voice anymore. Yes, even in 45 knots. I reef early and often now. If I don't, it scares both me and my wife, and that makes her not like sailing.


----------



## nickokelly

*Yelling, shouting, etc.*



JohnRPollard said:


> It could also be a question of syntax, i.e. are we talking about _yelling_ or _shouting_, and is there a difference?


Yelling, shouting, etc. I think the researchers mean using a voice with a higher volume than would otherwise be needed to be audible. Not sure about that to tell you the truth. Regardless, it conveys aggression or loss of control. I think emotions like anger are secondary. Again, I'm not an expert. I just did this research for a project.


----------



## sarafinadh

oh honestly. stop it! This is silly.

Don't yell at your wife when helping her to learn to sail is common sense.

**** happens and when it does voices get raised is common sense as well.

quit nitpicking this to death!

sheesh...


----------



## NICHOLSON58

I raced boats for about 30 years. I deliberately searched out a team known for even temper & known for not shouting. We trained and sailed together 3 to 5 days a week and took a lot of flags and relish trays. I do not recall any time shouting was required to convey urgency or for any other reason. We had pleanty of incidents that could have gone very badly but never required voice louder than necessary for communication. - Lost rudder, torn sails, near collisions, starting line malay, broken gear, skipper knocked off the boat on a jibe. Perhaps the fact that we all knew precisely what to do, what was next and what to expect from each other is part of the answer. Also, no drinking on board by anyone kept everyone sharp and able.


----------



## sailingdog

*I'm still waiting for Nick or Melrna to answer how they would have reacted in any of the three situations that I mentioned above. *



> There are instances, like Bubb2's boat getting run over by a Searay, or the accident in Buzzards Bay a few years back where a 60' powerboat killed people on a 35' sailboat, where it really doesn't matter what the captain did. Another case in point is the Clear Lake case, which hit the courts and the sailors were exonerated...


----------



## nickokelly

Seems like your question is off-topic, but you answered the question yourself didn't you? There is nothing they could have done. 

What does that have to do with raising your voice or making your wife comfortable on board?


----------



## eryka

nickokelly said:


> Regardless of the reason for yelling, the perception in interpersonal communication is one of either aggression or loss of control (most of the time, I don't think that aggression really applies in sailing). That goes for yelling "FIRE," as much as it does, "GET DOWN!" In a true emergency, of course raising your voice is entirely appropriate. If there is a fire on board or a wayward sheriff's boat about to run me down, you bet I want to know. However, if you are yelling this at me, I know for sure that you are not in control of the situation. That can be good to know.


This reminds me of the "command voice" the midshipmen practice sometimes when sailing with Dan. It's got both volume - can carry in from bow to cockpit in 45 knots (been there!) - and yet its tightly under control, has no aggression or panic. There is such a thing.

Nick, I really like some of your comments, and am looking forward to googling for your book. Oops, never mind, think it may not be terribly relevant for me <*wink*> but I've got your blog on my list now!


----------



## sailingdog

It has everything to do with it... it shows that there are some situations where RAISING YOUR VOICE or YELLING are a reasonable thing to do. If your wife knows that you will only raise your voice or yell in an emergency situation, there is a far better chance of her not misunderstanding your reason for yelling, provided, you are like Daydreamer's husband, and not a yeller under normal circumstances.

Both you and Melrna seem to think that any yelling or raising of voice is both unnecessary and unforgivable. That is simply not true.



nickokelly said:


> Seems like your question is off-topic, but you answered the question yourself didn't you? There is nothing they could have done.
> 
> What does that have to do with raising your voice or making your wife comfortable on board?


----------



## nickokelly

*Hey thanks!*



eryka said:


> Nick, I really like some of your comments, and am looking forward to googling for your book. Oops, never mind, think it may not be terribly relevant for me <*wink*> but I've got your blog on my list now!


Hey thanks. After all of my research and interviews, I am convinced that the VAST majority of us guys will NEVER go cruising without our wife/girlfriend/partner/etc fully on board with The Dream.

Do stay tuned here or on that blog. I am just finishing up some of the video interviews and will post them for free. These are interviews with cruising couples who have done it: sailed the Caribbean, the South Pacific, and around the world. They have a lot to teach.

Not sure on the time-line for those: probably starting next week sometime.


----------



## Melrna

sailingdog said:


> *I'm still waiting for Nick or Melrna to answer how they would have reacted in any of the three situations that I mentioned above. *


OK Saildog,, down boy down... There is a difference between yelling, shouting, and high pitch voice. Like others have said there are times for each. I don't dispute that. It is hard sometimes to convey without body language, tone and inflection in written words sometimes. At least for me it is. I guess what Nick and I are writing about are the constant yellers out there, using inappropriate words, wrong choice of words, inflection and tone of voice. Belittling someone, like I think we have all seen doesn't cut it under any circumstances. I believe that is what Nick and my points are. 
As for the accidents I am only aware of one of them; the cop hitting the sailboat. What I do as I always do is have a great lookout at all times. Biscayne Bay is full of erratic and uncontrolled powerboats most of time, especially during the summer. They are drunk, rude, don't know the right of way rules and are down right dangereous. I get out the way early, have the sound horn at the ready at all times, binaculars at the helm station, in night sailing I have my powerful flood light also at the ready and I don't travel in the channel unless I absolutely have to. All those tools have been used on most sails to avoid dangereous situations. But I also have a few advantages than most sailors. I can calculate closure distance and rate of movement to my boat with ease because of my flying training. A great asset when racing btw. But as I said in my previous post, I can assure you one or both captains in those incidents displayed very poor seamanship. Most accidents can be proven they start before the boat leaves the dock!
And yes Sh!t does happen, but when it does I find most people are clueless on what to do or how they got there to begin with.


----------



## sailingdog

I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that the "constant yellers" aren't a problem. But you and Nick, at least up to this point, have been arguing that there is never a reason to yell.... and that is just wrong.


----------



## Bene505

Glad that's settled then.

I'm looking to hear more about how to keep her happy. This summer we'll have her mom on board too. She moved in with us over the winter. Lucky me, she loves the kids and is a great cook.

Maybe I should start a thread on how to keep a 73 year old grandma happy on board. She's never been on a boat before, so I'll be taking it slow again. You know, sailing in calm conditions. We also need to look at how she can easily get on and off the boat from the dinghy.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## JohnRPollard

Bene505 said:


> ...Maybe I should start a thread on how to keep a 73 year old grandma happy on board. She's never been on a boat before, so I'll be taking it slow again. You know, sailing in calm conditions. We also need to look at how she can easily get on and off the boat from the dinghy.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Brad,

Heck, you should start a thread about how to keep a 73 year old grandma happy _at home_!!    

I'll bet you could offer up some good suggestions....


----------



## nickokelly

Bene505 said:


> Glad that's settled then.
> 
> I'm looking to hear more about how to keep her happy. This summer we'll have her mom on board too. She moved in with us over the winter. Lucky me, she loves the kids and is a great cook.
> 
> Maybe I should start a thread on how to keep a 73 year old grandma happy on board. She's never been on a boat before, so I'll be taking it slow again. You know, sailing in calm conditions. We also need to look at how she can easily get on and off the boat from the dinghy.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Brad, that's the name of the game, because if she isn't happy, the boat goes nowhere!

There was a study on risk aversion done by Riley and Chow in 1992 that concluded that women become less risk averse as they get older... until age 65, at which time their risk aversion goes up again.

Overall though, the same principles apply. Go slow, never raise your voice, remain in control, and most of all make it a fun and enjoyable experience, no matter what. There are a few other things I'll write about later. Gotta run!


----------



## sailingdog

watch out for the cane... 


Bene505 said:


> Glad that's settled then.
> 
> I'm looking to hear more about how to keep her happy. This summer we'll have her mom on board too. She moved in with us over the winter. Lucky me, she loves the kids and is a great cook.
> 
> Maybe I should start a thread on how to keep a 73 year old grandma happy on board. She's never been on a boat before, so I'll be taking it slow again. You know, sailing in calm conditions. We also need to look at how she can easily get on and off the boat from the dinghy.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


----------



## sck5

duct tape. you need lots of duct tape.


----------



## Omatako

Well!! We've seen some flip-flops on this thread!! Let's move on.

I think that with my wife who has never really been resistant to the cruising concept has always been a little hesitant because of the books that are published which ordinarily speak of storms, danger and hardship. Too many sailors want to be the hero and puiblish books about the bad stuff that happens to cement the view that they're tough, rugged, whatever.

The reality is that 99% of the time you'll spend cruising will be great. That's were I kept my focus. Cruising for me and my family is not about a boat. It's not about sailing. It's about a lifestyle. Most women don't give a rats a$$ about boats or sailing. But they do about idyllic holidays and good times.

The problem is that with all the "negative" publicity ocean sailing gets and with respect a lot of it on this forum, it's no wonder most of our ladies are hesitant. It's hard to reverse that and maybe other comments on this thread are right - get someone else (courses) to tell her it's safe because it'll be a tough road to get her to believe you.

My wife has about 6000 miles of voyaging now. It's been hard to get her started but now that she has, she's very enthusiastic because she sees past the boat an the sailing. Even when I yell


----------



## Whissell

Hi OhioTom:
From a woman's perspective !
Food for thought....don't frighten her or you'll never get her back out on the boat. First time out should be under very controlled conditons, very little heel, keep it flat, make it fun as well not all serious. Make sure she understands that not all is dependant on the the sails that the motor can be turned on the the boat brought home just like a car (motor boat). If the kids are along, their safety will be one of her first concern, reinforce it. I agree a women's only course would be good. Encourage her to start reading sailing books and magazines, ones with simple explanations at first till she grasps the lingo. I could go on and on. If you'd like to email me privately, don't hesitate to do so. Either oldsailor100 at persona.ca or cricket dot 2 @ persona.ca


----------



## ejanietx

Nick's comment was spot on! Men underestimate the loyalty and support their wives will give them if they just take the time to INCLUDE them in "their dreams". She married you because she loves you. All you have to do is make her feel like she has some degree of control as to the pace of things and that she is not being swept off her feet into the unknown. Include her, ask her opinion, and as all the others have said don't overwhelm her too early. And my hubby put shams and color coordinated bedding in the pullman berth the first time I was on the boat. They're gone now (ha!) but it COUNTED!


----------



## nickokelly

ejanietx,

Excellent points.

First of all, we men can get so excited by the prospect of living out _The Dream_ that we move too quickly. If our spouse doesn't appear to be keeping pace with our arbitrary expectations, we get frustrated. We'll then either compensate by trying to make her "comfortable" as a passenger, or unintentionally make her feel bad about not living up to our standards, or both.

Secondly, in our effort to be "captainly" we can come off as controlling. Captains are leaders, and leaders don't control, they inspire. No one wants to feel controlled; it's a basic tenant of happiness!

I love the "color-coordinated" pullman berth story. Sounds like something I might try-and fail miserably at. But you did notice, and that is the point.

At the end of the day, a good relationship on board is about the same things that it is on land: sharing values and respecting each others' values when they differ.


----------



## cardiacpaul

I may be a cranky ol' besterd... ok, I am. 

I also know that if thecuban is uncomfy, she'll either be comfy soon, or make me wish she was. 

On one of her first sails, she says "is this it", "does it go any faster?" "wow, its quiet, I could get used to this" 

and she was hooked.


----------



## GaryHLucas

Two years ago, my wife and I took a vacation to a bed and breakfast in the Florida Keys. It was our first vacation in about 6 years. I sold our Hunter 27 so we could buy our house, 25 years ago. Now the house is paid for, the cars are paid for, the daughter's college is paid for, and we havea grandson. It seemed like a good time to own a small sailboat. I had been looking at sailboat ads for sometime. When we got home from vacation my wife cashed in a CD that came due and gave me the money for a sailboat.

I bought a boat with her in mind, it's comfortable small cruiser that is unsinkable, an Etap 26, she can't swim. The boat had a bimini and a dodger, which makes for a closed in feeling in the cockpit. I thought that would make her feel safe. I spent only half the money she gave me, and planned on using the rest for upgrades. I bought a tillerpilot so she wouldn't have to steer if she didn't want to. My daughter and grandson were thrilled. Unfortunately the boat had a number of problems I missed, and didn't even get in the water last year. I've spent a lot more time and money on it than I intended. But none of that really mattered.

The day I bought the boat she stopped sleeping with me. She stopped talking to me, unless it is to tell me what I am doing wrong. Apparently I can't do anything right, unlike at work where I am respected for what I do so well. Valentines day was our 30th anniversary. She didn't mention it, and neither did I. She says she will never go on the boat. As soon as I realized the boat had problems I suggested getting rid of it. She went berserk over how much money I might lose doing that. I would sell the boat in a minute if it fixed things between us. Apparently the boat money was just a test, and I failed.

The scary part is that we are in our mid fifties, our parents are in their mid 80s and we MIGHT live that long! I actually understand where her resentment comes from. When I was 30 I walked away from the family business, where I was doing very well. I gave it to my younger brother whom is now a muti-millionaire. The new business I started didn't work, and I spent a lot of years trying. I finally just gave up and got a regular job. It would be nice if she could forgive me, but that doesn't look like it is going to happen. So I am just a miserable old bastard with a sailboat that needs a lot of work.

You have no idea how much I envy you guys that have found a way to get your wife on board!

Gary H. Lucas


----------



## nickokelly

Gary,

Listen man, you are not in as deep a pile of doo-doo as you think, and here's why: you know and are willing to acknowledge that there are issues outside of the boat that need to be worked out. Here are a few things to consider about this boat and your wife:

1. Unless it was her idea to buy the boat, this is your dream and not hers. Buying a boat does not automatically get her to buy into The Dream. They are two completely separate things - and this is something that many of us (me included) get confused about. The time to get her buy-in is wayyyy before you start talking about boats.
2. She doesn't trust the boat. You said "problems" which can mean a wide variety of things. To be honest with you, if I couldn't swim, I wouldn't want to go out on the sturdiest and most capable craft.
3. She doesn't trust you to captain the boat safely. You hinted that you might know why, but I doubt it's as simple as your bro got the dough or your business never took off.

Here's the solution: work on your relationship before your boat. In fact, if you love your wife, forget about sailing this boat for a while. Show the kids how it works and give them the joy of sailing. You might even consider just giving them the boat as long as those "problems" aren't too serious. Go out with them every once in a while for a smile, and let your wife wave from shore and join for supper afterward. Whatever you do, take the pressure OFF of her completely for now. The pain of lost money is only once, the pain of this boat just keeps going and going and going...

Now, to have greater influence over your wife and her happiness, you need to be more likable. To do this, you need to do the following:
1. Be there. Spend as much time around her as possible. Doesn't matter what you are doing.
2. Find common ground. Doesn't matter if it is peanut butter sandwiches or tennis or the children. Focus on what you share. 
3. Use reciprocal affection. We tend to like those who like us. Tell yourself you're just getting the upper hand or whatever you have to do; fake it until you can make it but LIKE HER! She won't have any choice but to like you. I swear this is foolproof. Seriously.
4. Make her feel good. We like those who like us. So do it, yes, you know what I'm talking about, "honey, that sweater makes your eyes look great." Again, fake it until you can make it, but I'm telling you it will work.
5. Get her to help you do something. Anything. That's right, get her to do something for YOU. Her subconscious will tell her, "I must like this guy, otherwise I wouldn't be doing this."
6. Smile at your own mistakes. Be humble, man. Not saying you're not, but I am saying that it is the key to effective leadership.
7. Stay positive. We all like to be around happy, positive people. They have greater influence over us. So no matter how bad you think things have gotten between you two, start looking for the bright spots. They are there, so find them and focus on them. Be happy you have someone in your life at all. Many don't.
8. Develop your own strength and confidence. I'm not saying your not. I don't know you from any other anonymous post on the internet. But years of perceived failure in business and comparison with your brother would sure as heck shake my confidence if I were you. So how in the heck are you going to do this? Set some goals and attain them. Lose ten pounds. Run a 5K run or a 10K. Set a fun goal like you want to be able to carry your wife piggy-back for a mile.

Here's the big one: never give up. I mean never. I mean "no f'ing way I'm giving up." You are in your 50s? We met a couple on our first cruise who were just finishing an 18 year circumnavigation. He was almost 90! 

The trick is to not skip over the obvious hurdles and don't pretend their not there. If you want your wife to GET ON BOARD, you need to work on the relationship first. That starts with you, not her.


----------



## eryka

Why is this whole thread beginning to weird me out? There are some pretty major sex stereotypes in play here - I thought those went out with the 60s. You, the (strong? smart? logical?) man trying to manipulate your (silly?) wife into going sailing/cruising? Its for her own good, try it you'll like it - reminds me of coaxing your kid to taste broccoli.

What am I missing here?


----------



## SW329xl

eryka said:


> Why is this whole thread beginning to weird me out? There are some pretty major sex stereotypes in play here - I thought those went out with the 60s. You, the (strong? smart? logical?) man trying to manipulate your (silly?) wife into going sailing/cruising? Its for her own good, try it you'll like it - reminds me of coaxing your kid to taste broccoli.
> 
> What am I missing here?


Nothing, you nailed it. It is weird.


----------



## nickokelly

eryka said:


> Why is this whole thread beginning to weird me out? There are some pretty major sex stereotypes in play here - I thought those went out with the 60s. You, the (strong? smart? logical?) man trying to manipulate your (silly?) wife into going sailing/cruising? Its for her own good, try it you'll like it - reminds me of coaxing your kid to taste broccoli.
> 
> What am I missing here?


Which post(s) are you referring to? This "QUOTE" button is so handy for forum discussions.


----------



## eryka

Nick - it's no one post, or I would have linked to it. Instead its just the overall vibe here. (Don't worry, it's not you) As far as relationships, I think even more than the generalization and stereotype, what's getting me is the implied lack of transparency. All the manipulation, scheming advice to "get" your S.O. to do what you want - what is wrong with simply, transparently, saying to your spouse/partner/best friend, "This cruising thing is really important to me and I'd like to do it with you, how can we make that work?" You might find out that its about the sailing, or the drama and "yelling;" or it might be about being away from the grandchildren; or having to sell the house. Any of these can be tackled once you know what they are ... but as Gary's post so heartbreakingly makes clear, a marriage shouldn't be a mindreading test! Just state what you're thinking for goodness sake!!!

Then again, maybe I don't understand what the fuss is all about, after all, I'm out here cruising, an equal, excited partner. Neither of us had to convince the other, we *both* wanted this life as soon as we were able (finances and skills)


----------



## remetau

eryka said:


> Nick - it's no one post, or I would have linked to it. Instead its just the overall vibe here. (Don't worry, it's not you) As far as relationships, I think even more than the generalization and stereotype, what's getting me is the implied lack of transparency. All the manipulation, scheming advice to "get" your S.O. to do what you want - what is wrong with simply, transparently, saying to your spouse/partner/best friend, "This cruising thing is really important to me and I'd like to do it with you, how can we make that work?" You might find out that its about the sailing, or the drama and "yelling;" or it might be about being away from the grandchildren; or having to sell the house. Any of these can be tackled once you know what they are ... but as Gary's post so heartbreakingly makes clear, a marriage shouldn't be a mindreading test! Just state what you're thinking for goodness sake!!!
> 
> Then again, maybe I don't understand what the fuss is all about, after all, I'm out here cruising, an equal, excited partner. Neither of us had to convince the other, we *both* wanted this life as soon as we were able (finances and skills)


Eryka,

I couldn't agree more. Open discussion about it all the way even if you don't get what you want. You have to take her part in it too unless you aren't really partners. Remember, living on a boat is a total commitment in very close quarters.


----------



## nickokelly

I appreciate what you are saying. "Get" does have a connotation of manipulation doesn't it. In my book, I use that term ironically because you can't GET someone to buy into The Dream-which is exactly what needs to happen-you both MUST share The Dream for this cruising thing to be a successful venture. 

Gary's story is not unique, unfortunately. It is the predominant reason that perfectly good boats lay bobbing in their slips.

Whatever we can do to facilitate communication will surely help with problems like this.


----------



## sck5

I dont think it is manipulative to try to understand that what SHE might find attractive about cruising arent the same things that I might find attractive. Trying figure out what's in it for your partner and then trying to give it to them is good advice for anyone on land as well as on the boat. 

For my part, I was very upfront with her. I told her I was obsessed with sailing and would love it if she learned to like it too. Being a total landlubber, it was never going to be something she came up with first. I asked her what she thought sounded good and what she was afraid of. I told her I would NEVER try to push her out of her comfort zone but that if she would give it a try I would do whatever I could think of to make it a good time for her.

I dont know. Maybe that was manipulative. I certainly said things like "The cruising guide says there are good shops for summer clothes at the next port so I am going to bribe you by giving you money to buy some" She could (and sometimes does) say things like "Thats great but what I really want is not to heat the boat up by cooking dinner on board tonight" Nothing I did was ever a secret plan but it sure as hell worked. It turned out that what she really wanted was to be warm in the winter. I could certainly live with that though my original idea was cruising closer to home. Her fears were real - she really was completely ignorant about sailboats - and getting over them just took time to familiarize herself with how boats work until she got to the point where she knew that nothing bad was going to happen when the boat rocked, or heeled or whatever.

At the end, my wife's dream isnt really the same exact dream as mine. But there is enough overlap that we are both going to be on the boat cruising in the Caribbean. We both win.


----------

