# Is the Binnacle Compass Obsolete?



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

No, really. I had either a major insight or a real case of heresy tonight, thinking about a chartplotter with radar overlay and saying to myself, gee, that's wasted at the nav station, that REALLY should be at the helm and daylight readable. (Ka-ching!)

I mean, binnacle compasses are great, reliable, don't really care what state your batteries and all are in, but if you're on the helm and threading an inlet or rockhopping, do you really give a damn about the COMPASS? Which could just as easily be located by the hatch, or repeated with big bright numbers on the mast? (Or displayed on the heretical fancy display, ahem.)

And I started thinking, gee, that binnacle compass really is in the wrong spot. What should be there is not some fancy pod, but a daylight readable display, or a repeater of one that's at the nav. 

Has anyone given over to this kind of heresy? Does it seem, well, like maybe the time has come? (And if it has, suggestions for a good display system with repeater so the helm/nav can both have it?)


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

One thing I know for sure is that I will never own a boat that has no binnacle compass.

When I'm hand steering at the wheel, the compass is the best reference to holding any form of course.

When the chips are really down and you're into DR navigation (it can happen to anyone) you can't do without a compass. It doesn't help knowing where you were yesterday and how far you have come since and at what speed if you don't know your heading. Even getting a fix from CN depends on knowing more or less where you are. So if you can't get a decent position by DR you're pretty much screwed. So unless you want to spend every spare moment taking sights so that you can stay within reach of the last fix, you need a compass.

If you're on an ocean crossing and everything goes down and you have no compass, you can sail in the general direction of the nearest continent ussing the sky and provided you have enough food/water, you'll probably get to land eventually. But does anyone want that ball-ache?

Anyone who says they will never lose all their toys are kidding themselves. They can and it's not hard. As far as I'm concerned, a boat without a proper steering compass is like a pub with no booze.


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## norsearayder (Dec 19, 2006)

the compass will never leave my helm no mater what goodies are in use ,ive had black outs on all electronics ,offshore ,in thick fog ,in major traffic lanes etc.also when at sea a plotter alot of times is fairly useless to new crew trying to steer a course


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

While the compass may be redundant in a world of electronic gizmos, it's a necessary redundancy.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

HS,

While I agree with the others that I'd never be without the faithful Ritchie, I am not as dead set as others on it being mounted at the steering binnacle. Heck, that's not even an option on a tiller-steered boat.

The best compass arrangement I've experienced was on my brother's NY36, which had twin bulkhead mounted steering compasses, mounted port and starboard on the trailing end of the coachroof (forward end of the cockpit). This allowed the helmsman to sight straight up the compass while seated on the coaming and facing forward on either tack. 

So, if you're like me and rarely steer from directly behind the helm, the binnacle-mount is less than ideal. If money were no object, I'd purchase and install two bulkhead-mounted compasses in lieu of the binnacle version. 

Then again, for all the same reasons, I don't think I'd put my electronic nav equipment at the helm either. About the only time I steer from behind the helm is when motoring. And if you have autopilot, all the more reason to not put it all back there....


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

*Garmin needs to read this thread. * I had decided to install their Model 546 Chartplotter on my binnacle. Bought one, then found out there is a powerful magnet inside to keep the SD card door closed! They claim it can not be removed, which I expect is CYA baloney. So I returned it. A curious design decision from an otherwise great company. Their view is that a binnacle compass is unnecessary thanks to the miracle of modern electronics. I would like to take their designer for a little cruise with the compass removed on the Muscle Ridge Channel in Maine in July.

If you want to see this for yourself, go to WM, pick up a compass and carry it to the 546. Notwithstanding this rant, I still like the 546. Does anyone have experience getting the magnet out of it?


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Aaaaand you have just been struck by lightning, everything electrical has just crapped out Oooor your batteries have just gone flat everything electrical has just crapped out Ooooor perhaps the main fuse has just blown and you know you have a spare somewhere but where but again everything electrical has crapped out.

What now skipper.

Remember it is not IF it is WHEN will your electrical gubbins fail.

You need a binnacle compass and a paper chart with a running plot on it. 

OK maybe if you are on a small body of water and never out of sight of land then it is not important but if there is the remotest possiblity of being in a situation where you need to steer a course to safety then you need the above.

Just this year I heard a prolonged exchange between a San Juan coastguard and a sailboat coming from the north who had lost their GPS Plotter and had no idea where they were or what course to steer.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Well, some of us are presbyopic and couldn't READ a chartplotter if it was mounted up by the companionway, making a "helm" installation necessary if it is to be used in the cockpit at all. Steering from the high side makes that problematic but I wouldn't spring for two helms and dual displays.<G>

All I'm hearing is that the compass is a really good thing. I KNOW that, the problem is that it is hogging valuable real estate. Like a stunning hottie sitting on the genoa winch, it may be nice to look at but do you really want it RIGHT THERE when it can so easily be moved someplace else? With no loss of function?

You ever drive a J/24 with a binnacle compass? Of course not, there's no binnacle. If the boat is overloaded there might be a compass next to the companionway--and it works perfectly well up there.

If I were spending all my time crossing trackless oceans and that was the main criteria...maybe. But it isn't, and I'd rather steer by a star or something "out of the boat" than keep watching something down by my navel.

Of course the electricals will all fail someday. So might the rigging. Meanwhile...someone get that blonde off the winch, or teach her how to trim the genoa!


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

hellosailor said:


> Well, some of us are presbyopic and couldn't READ a chartplotter if it was mounted up by the companionway, making a "helm" installation necessary if it is to be used in the cockpit at all. Steering from the high side makes that problematic but I wouldn't spring for two helms and dual displays.<g>


Where there's a will there's a way....... Rube Goldberged as it may have been this is what I did on my previous C320 to take care of the problem.










On the C28 before that ..... no chart plotter but I rigged my little Garmin 48 on a smaller version of that swing arm for all around viewing.

Now on my NC without a binnacle I mounted the 'stand alone' chartplotter on a track with swivel to see it from either side. If I have to move inside I simply unplug it, bring it in to the inside station where I have another track and plug it in next to the Radar .... and another compass of course.









</g>


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## captbillc (Jul 31, 2008)

i have the same set up as pollard's brother on my tiller steered nimble 30 . i would never be without a compass.


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## Paul_L (Sep 16, 2004)

TQA said:


> Aaaaand you have just been struck by lightning, everything electrical has just crapped out Oooor your batteries have just gone flat everything electrical has just crapped out Ooooor perhaps the main fuse has just blown and you know you have a spare somewhere but where but again everything electrical has crapped out.
> 
> What now skipper.
> 
> Remember it is not IF it is WHEN will your electrical gubbins fail.....


Nice try, but lightening strikes have massive magnetic pulses too that tend remagnetize and throw off a compass. After a strike you cannot rely on your compass without verifying it.

You still need one - but this isn't the argumnet for it.

Paul L


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

I'd never move the compass away from the helm. It's one of the items that you should frequently compare with your GPS heading if you are using one. There are numerous options if real estate is at a premium. The new Garmin 640 touch screen is hardly larger than the unit itself. Imagine where you want the unit, chances are there is a Ram Mount that will get you there.


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## sailjunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

I love my "gadgets". 

However, like everyone else on this thread, there will always be a compass on our boat. When it comes to electronics, crap happens.

I'll go one step further: if our compass ever needs to be replaced, a new compass will replace it.


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

_Presbyopic you say?_ I'll tell you what's more challenging - a crew of two with a combined age of 150, only one good eye between them, and both half deaf with short term memory issues (CRS) to boot. Our territory is Virginia to Maine. Now, how to set up the helm unfestooned with fancy gadgets?

First, a binnacle compass. Otherwise would be unimaginable to me. Then a chartplotter right on the binnacle that can be rotated and tilted for optimum viewing. This enables a straight-on view no matter where we sit or stand. It can be easily removed for an unmodernized look that is more appropriate for this old boat. There is a RAM Mic on the binnacle as well. The depth sounder is forward next to the companionway.

I put in the little rant about the Garmin 546 because it would be a good fit and enable AIS display, unlike the current Raymarine 435i plotter.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Paul_L said:


> Nice try, but lightening strikes have massive magnetic pulses too that tend remagnetize and throw off a compass. After a strike you cannot rely on your compass without verifying it.
> 
> You still need one - but this isn't the argumnet for it.
> 
> Paul L


How well I know this. I was struck by lightning in Beaufort NC on a steel boat while at anchor. I fixed / replaced stuff and left heading North only to find that no matter what direction the boat was heading the compass gave the same reading. My hull had been turned into a giant magnet.

The ancient Neco autopilot had survived the strike and as the compass for that was half way up the mizzen it still worked ok. Between that and a hand bearing compass we survived till the boat was degaussed. Another story!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Heck, you don't need lightning to ruin a binnacle compass. That's one reason why genuine "Navy" belt buckles are BRASS. Yes, compasses have been driven mad by simple belt buckles.

Fishsticks, the main reason I was thinking "binnacle" for the plotter instead of having it bolted on, or mounted on an arm, etc. is that it is next to impossible for a stray loop of line to rip the top off a binnacle. But easy to rip off any kind of mount or arm. One less thing to foul, one less thing to fail.

I suppose the compass could be mounted like a giant deck prism in the cockpit floor itself.<G>


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Hello- whether you move the compass to another location or not is not too important IMHO. As long as you can view the compass when things get rough or the electronics don't work anymore your are good to go. Personally, I want the compass at the binnacle because nothing is easier to steer by if you are really being tossed around. Ever try to steer a straight course using the chartplotter when the boat is veering 30-60 degrees every few seconds? Or how about when you are in the soup and running strictly on radar, no substitute for the compass, so I want it right in front of my nose.


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## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

I wonder how many still carry a slide rule and math tables? It isn't if your fancy electric calculator is going to fail but when!

No doubt the generation that grew up with the astrolabe would never trust a sextant but eventually people will trust the sextant and leave the astrolabe ashore. Having a compass on board (just on board not even at the binnacle!) is a good idea just as it is a good idea to have a slide rule, math tables, star charts, sextants, astrolabes and an endless number of old nav books including the Icelandic Sagas but are such archaic systems needed? No. 

At least I hope not.

If you really need your compass or other archaic bits of technology, if you are unable to control your vessel without them or unable creep along an unknown shoreline, unable to anchor and effect repairs or rescue without a binnacle mounted compass then having these archaic bits of history are really just a crutch. You will likely fail even with them. 

I would suggest those claiming they would be unable to respond to the unusually emergency which results in all their main and back up GPS and modern technology being unusable are either incorrect or…well I’m glad the odds of them running into me blindly under such conditions are low. 

Eventually every boater will accept the new fangled sextant, and other new technologies just as we accepted the once new fangled compass.


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

*Ever try to steer by chartplotter alone?* With the Raymarine 435 you certainly can not. Last summer a huge bubble evolved in my compass, making it almost unreadable. We were in very thick fog dodging ledges in Maine, We tried to steer by chartplotter alone and found it impossible. That particular plotter is dangerously slow to refresh and zoom.

Having the chartplotter atop the binnacle, as you can see in my photo does make it vulnerable. It should at least have a pipe frame guard over it, but that is easier said than done. So far we have managed, finding it invaluable with a shorthanded crew that knows it is not a handhold. It is actually on a breakaway bracket. At times, when there is a crowd in the cockpit, I stow it and have someone keep an eye on the Garmin 276C below. I always sail with paper charts in the cockpit.


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

FishSticks said:


> *Ever try to steer by chartplotter alone?* With the Raymarine 435 you certainly can not.


    
Well........ I bought mine specifically to self deliver my NC from Annapolis to RI 5 years ago and it got me here. I have been using it ever since including to steer in heavy fog with no problem.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> All I'm hearing is that the compass is a really good thing. I KNOW that, the problem is that it is hogging valuable real estate.


Dude, how big is your friggin' compass? It sounds like the thing takes up half the cockpit, leaving no room for a navpod on the pedestal guard, or a RAM mount to the bimini bows overhead or...

I wish someone would develop a repeater interface to display radar/chartplotter display on a pair of lcd sunglasses. A head-up display with no daylight viewing issues, and no cockpit clutter.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

FishSticks said:


> _Presbyopic you say?_ I'll tell you what's more challenging - a crew of two with a combined age of 150, only one good eye between them, and both half deaf with short term memory issues (CRS) to boot. Our territory is Virginia to Maine.


 Thank God you're sailing, not driving! 

Seriously, my hat's off to you for keeping on keeping on.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Would putting a compass in a Faraday cage protect it from lightning strikes?


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## Paul_L (Sep 16, 2004)

AdamLein said:


> Would putting a compass in a Faraday cage protect it from lightning strikes?


With a little luck it will.

Paul L


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## ottos (Aug 12, 2008)

I would think the the same Faraday cage would keep it from functioning as a compass. But it's a long time since I took Electromagnetic Wave Theory....


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

ottos said:


> I would think the the same Faraday cage would keep it from functioning as a compass. But it's a long time since I took Electromagnetic Wave Theory....


 But lightning would also keep it from functioning as a compass, so there.
Okay, okay, okay, QUESTION: Stephen Hawking or Chuck Liddell: Who would win in a Faraday Cage Match?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

bl-
Maybe you missed the part where I said any kind of arm or pod is one more thing to foul a line on and get destroyed? Size is not the issue, you go hang a chartplotter someplace where a line can foul on it, and tell me that's a good idea. I've always figured the hallmark of good design, is that you can't really see how good it is because it just makes problems impossible.

Adam-
Consider the classic Faraday cage, which is made of copper screening or copper sheeting. Does copper stop magnetism? No, not at all. A compass in a Faraday cage will work perfectly well, unless the cage is made of iron sheet or mu metal, or something else that can block magnetism. 
The Faraday cage blocks EMI (electromagnetic interference) and RFI (radio frequency interference) but not magnetism itself.
So if a lightning strike goes over the skin of the Faraday cage, or through a conductor next to it, there can still be a magnetic pulse that will reach right through the cage and grab your compass by the short hairs. The cage *may* help, but a small tinned iron box, or a mu metal box (the stuff is used in sheet form to keep speaker magnets from affecting computer monitors, etc.) would be better "compass insurance". Or even a couple of "iron" soup cans, clamped head to tail nice and tight with the compass inside them.

Time to drop the compass and get a good reliable sunstone as a backup! Oh you kids with your newfangled and unreliable _compass _technology!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> bl-
> Maybe you missed the part where I said any kind of arm or pod is one more thing to foul a line on and get destroyed?


Maybe YOU missed the part where I mentioned a RAM mount from a bimini bow overhead? If you're snagging sheets on your bimini, the problem ain't your compass.

If you plan to remove your pedestal compass and replace it with a Display, the display is going to be larger than your compass, and will not have roundy smoothy edges like a compass, instead it will be all sharpy squarey, so it will foul a line much more easily than a compass will in the same place. If your problem is failing eyesight, then bolt your plotter to the cabin with a magnifying sheet over the screen. now the display is nice and big and it is out of the way and you still have a compass.

Checkmate.


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## ottos (Aug 12, 2008)

I was wrong...

From Wikipedia "Faraday cages cannot block static and slowly varying magnetic fields, such as Earth's magnetic field (a compass will still work inside)."


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

You would think that a steel boat is a pretty good faraday cage. When the lightning struck the top of the mast it blew everything off the top but I was inside at the time and not touching anything metallic [ I think ]

The air went fuzzy blue and the noise meant I was deaf for about two days but other than that I was fine.

Some electrics which were unplugged including the tv which was sitting on a wooden table with no leads attached were fried.

The hull was magnetised though.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Architeuthis said:


> If you really need your compass or other archaic bits of technology, if you are unable to control your vessel without them or unable creep along an unknown shoreline, unable to anchor and effect repairs or rescue without a binnacle mounted compass then having these archaic bits of history are really just a crutch. You will likely fail even with them.
> 
> I would suggest those claiming they would be unable to respond to the unusually emergency which results in all their main and back up GPS and modern technology being unusable are either incorrect or&#8230;well I'm glad the odds of them running into me blindly under such conditions are low.


I think I'll keep my "archaic bit of history" right where it is on the binnacle. All I can figure is that anyone that would make the above quote just doesn't have the experience to understand that ALL of the tools available to help safely navigate your boat are just that, another tool in the box when you need it. I hope you never find yourself in a nasty enough situation out of sight of land where you realize the benefits of having a compass, because it doesn't sound as though you would know how to use such an archaic instrument anyway .


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

A magnetic compass tells you where you are pointing. A gps track indicates were you are GOING. Knowing the difference could be important. I've also had a GPS in an airplane display my track 180 degrees from what it actually was. It was a momentary glitch, but I found it confusing and enlightening.

Besides that, I find it much easier to determine the wind shifts looking at the compass to know if we're being lifted or knocked.

I use the GPS to see where I want to go and the compass to help me decide how I'm going to get there.


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## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> Maybe you missed the part Time to drop the compass and get a good reliable sunstone as a backup! Oh you kids with your newfangled and unreliable _compass _technology!


Now we're talking! I'll do just that and then post pics of what a real reliable nav system is all about. Don't forget that the earths magnetic field is due to flip anytime and then where are all those slaves of magnetic technology going to be?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

midlifesailor said:


> I've also had a GPS in an airplane display my track 180 degrees from what it actually was.


I was heading about 270 degrees directly into a pretty strong current about 4 knots. Didn't look like we were making any progress even though we seemed to be going pretty good.

The GPS reported we were tracking 90 degrees. 
Actually there was no error as our through the water was only 3 knots.

Does look odd though.


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## josrulz (Oct 15, 2006)

When we were sailing our Sabre 34 home from Connecticut, we were about 25 miles off the coast of New Jersey, heading south as the sun was setting. It was our first overnight underway. We didn't have a working autohelm at the time, so we were hand steering, which wasn't too bad with fair winds. We had our chartplotter going, but you can't really steer that way. We were using the compass of course. There would be no moon that night--it was heavily overcast and raining. Even in daytime, one needed the compass as there really was no frame of reference for direction.

As it got darker, I went down below and flipped the switch for the compass light. Nada. Nothing. Crud. I asked my father, who was steering, if he could see the compass because of the light from the chartplotter and the radar. He couldn't. Crud. We had checked this before we left--what was different now?

As it turns out, the compass light switch isolated the compass, but there was a separate switch for the instrument lights overall. Once that was on, the compass light was fine. Whew!

Hey, I realize that the suggestion wasn't necessarily about whether a compass is necessary at all--it seemed it was more about the location. But I thought I'd relay my own experience with lack of compass (for a short time). Even if it has been daytime, but with poor visibility (as it was), lack of a compass would have been a problem. I do not think that the compass _must _be at the binnacle, but it must be _easily_ visible from the helm. For me, that means the binnacle. That might be different for others (which is totally fine). 
-J


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

*Compass safe distance for chartplotters*

It seems I am not the only one that finds it difficult to steer by chartplotter alone (no compass.) Why is it then then that some charplotter manufacturers make their products in such a way they can not be installed close to the compass? Some of us don't have the option to locate the chartplotter anywhere but on the binnacle.

*Compass Safe Distance specified by manufacturer*
Garmin 546 - 20 inches
Garmin 740 - 32 inches (and a new product at that!)
Raymarine A70 - 36 inches

Can someoine explain this?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

They generate a magnetic field that could disrupt a normal magnetic compass if they are setup within that distance of it.



FishSticks said:


> *Compass safe distance for chartplotters*
> 
> It seems I am not the only one that finds it difficult to steer by chartplotter alone (no compass.) Why is it then then that charplotter manufacturers make their products in such a way they can not be installed close to the compass? Some of us don't have the option to locate the chartplotter anywhere but on the binnacle.
> 
> ...


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

What is a binnacle compass?


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## AboardIndigo (Aug 23, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> What is a binnacle compass?


A binnacle compass is a compass that is mounted in a binnacle at the helm.


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

I have a Raymarine 435i that causes no problem with the compass..

The Garmin 546 has an internal magnet to close the door for the SD card. 

The earlier Garmin 492 has a latching door for the card, and it does not interfere with the compass. Is this some kind of "dumbing down" design philosophy to accomodate people who don't know the door ought to be closed? With the magnet the door closes untouched by human hands.

I don't know why the brand new Garmin 740 has a CSD of 32". Is this some kind of offensive to obsolete compasses?

I don't why the Raymarine A70 has a CSD of 36".

At the moment I am planning to upgrade my chartplotter and I have been traipsing around with my compass to check out the newer plotters.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

I think even with a close by chartplotter you would be suprised how often you look at the compass, sort of like when you forget to wear your wristwatch. Just put a cover over the compass or at night turn of the light, I bet you look at it a lot more than you think.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

AboardIndigo said:


> A binnacle compass is a compass that is mounted in a binnacle at the helm.


a binnacle would be a what? I mount said compass on my tiller?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The mount for the compass, usually located on the wheel's pedestal.

If you have a tiller... you don't have a binnacle. 


blt2ski said:


> a binnacle would be a what? I mount said compass on my tiller?


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> a binnacle would be a what? I mount said compass on my tiller?


Precisely. It's attached to the tiller on a gimbaling gyroscopic mount to keep the lubber line parallel to the boat's centerline.


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## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

jrd22 said:


> .... I hope you never find yourself in a nasty enough situation out of sight of land where you realize the benefits of having a compass, because it doesn't sound as though you would know how to use such an archaic instrument anyway .


Missed this but it was funny,

The only tool you really need is your mind, all the rest are just mod cons.

BTW: I have been offshore out of sight of land with no GPS, No loran, sextent, astrolabe, or compass. No radio, by myself, with no one in sight, likely less than a dozen people in a hundred kilometer radius, and well over a hundred kilometers from home. More than once even, yet always or almost always home on time...must a been luck.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Why is it then then that some charplotter manufacturers make their products in such a way"
The answer is always money, fishsticks. Or competency in the design department, but usually money because the last design stage in many companies now is "forensic cost engineering" where someone literally gets the product that the engineers spec'd, and then sits down and knocks out compoments to reduce the production cost.
Reducing stray magnetism in the chartplotters probably would cost a lot of money and result in near-zero additional sales, since most (way most) chartplotters are mounted in a bulkhead at a nav station. So why spend significant money on something that won't generate corresponding sales?
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the LED screen technologies created a significant magnetic field, and shielding them--or using alternate displays--was very pricey. Heck, even the casing of many AA cells is magnetic. I have an aluminum minilite that sticks very well to magnets--because they are grabbing at the AA cell inside it!
So I'd also expect some of the CSD numbers are on the conservative side, because the manufacturers rightly don't want to get involved in that problem.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

AdamLein said:


> Precisely. It's attached to the tiller on a gimbaling gyroscopic mount to keep the lubber line parallel to the boat's centerline.


Finally an answer I can understand!

Now that lubber line you speakuth of, is the mounted to the rubber tween the tiller and the rudder shaft?


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## Hesper (May 4, 2006)

Sorry, but if I'm "threading an inlet or rock hopping" I want my eyes OUT of the boat, not on some gizmo at the binnacle or elsewhere.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Hesper, if you don't know where the rocks are supposed to be...how do you hop around them?

I agree with you, eyes outside the boat. But sometimes, you need information that's INside the boat, and if you don't have the luxury of a tactician and naviguesser to feed that to you...Heck, we just can't afford a heads-up display over the companionway hatch.<G>


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

Architeuthis said:


> I wonder how many still carry a slide rule and math tables? It isn't if your fancy electric calculator is going to fail but when!
> 
> No doubt the generation that grew up with the astrolabe would never trust a sextant but eventually people will trust the sextant and leave the astrolabe ashore. Having a compass on board (just on board not even at the binnacle!) is a good idea just as it is a good idea to have a slide rule, math tables, star charts, sextants, astrolabes and an endless number of old nav books including the Icelandic Sagas but are such archaic systems needed? No.
> 
> ...


You really wern't serious were you. I'm all for technology but a compas a crutch? Tell me how to creep along an unknown shoreline in Maine in the fog without a compass and no GPS.


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

_Hellosailor_ - cut _Hesper_ some slack. He don't have to know where the rocks are - just needs to know where they ain't.

This is a good thread you instigated here. There is a friendly intergenerational(?) debate going on right now betwixt my son and I on this very topic. Do you put all the good gadgets below where they are safe from the elements, or do you put them at the binnacle for the benefit of the helmsman, but where space is scarce and the instruments are in mortal danger from lurching bodies and lines going everywhichway?

And when do we hear from the electronics folks to explain why their stuff is not supposed to be located near a magnetic oompass? Do they care about causing compass deviation or is it vice versa? And how come they don't tell us this in sales literature - only when (and if) we read the installation instructions?


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Bottom line - other than the time-tested depth/wind/log stuff, all the electronics on your boat are all nice-to-have toys, nothing more. None of it beats good seamanship, good navigation skills and a good watch.

For centuries people have sailed the world without any of that stuff and yes, while it is fun to have and use them, in the final analysis they are no better than a Playstation.

One day they will also fall into the time-tested category but I think it might be "time-tested and failed"


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

Omatako said:


> Bottom line - other than the time-tested depth/wind/log stuff, all the electronics on your boat are all nice-to-have toys, nothing more. None of it beats good seamanship, good navigation skills and a good watch.
> 
> For centuries people have sailed the world without any of that stuff and yes, while it is fun to have and use them, in the final analysis they are no better than a Playstation.
> 
> One day they will also fall into the time-tested category but I think it might be "time-tested and failed"


Disagree totally. Electronics are additional tools. The "toys" characterization probably comes in large part from the fun and amazement at what they can do. But they are tools. You need to prepare for their failure with redundancy and backup / alternate means or equipment but they are still tools not toys. In some situations it could be considered fool hardy not to have GPS and radar given how cheap it is becomming.

Navigation was far more hazadardous a century ago without electronics. Be serious, do you really want oil tankers and our navy navigate using lead lines and sextants with radar turned off? Its not used because it is fun, It is used because it works. A GPS does not become a tool merley because it is moved from a commercial or military vessel to a recreational craft.

Electronics are time tested at this point and are an amazing success being used in far more critical situations than sailing: We land planes, drop bombs, protect our troops, see in the dark all with electronics. They continally get better and cheaper.

I understand and appreciated the value of learning and being able to use older methods of navigation but it is inaccurate to dismisss electronics as mere toys.


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## sidmon (Aug 2, 2009)

LinekinBayCD said:


> our navy navigate using lead lines and sextants with radar turned off...


That said, the USN has had some difficulty navigating even WITH advanced tools in recent years.

What happens is that people forget that the magic boxes do not replace the grey matter between their ears.

Pretty sad state of affairs when the USN can't even stay off the rocks in sight of the sea buoy outside of one of its main homeports:










Never. EVER! think you don't need to remain proficient in the basics when it comes to navigating.


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## sidmon (Aug 2, 2009)

sidmon said:


> Never. EVER! think you don't need to remain proficient in the basics when it comes to navigating.


That wasn't an isolated case. This one was VERY close to a no joke serious tragedy. As it was, only one died, and the boat at least made it home again:










That "PA" on the chart with the little dots around it means what it says. And thats the problem with modern nav displays. They can be quite alluring with their seeming preciseness.

But there are times that pretty picture will lead you straight into trouble if you view it with blind trust.

As "modern" as such tools are, the ancient Sirens are still lurking out there, ready to lure the unwary onto the rocks...


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Sidmon: I have no idea what's going on in that picture (the photo, not the painting).

Can you tell the story?


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## sidmon (Aug 2, 2009)

AdamLein said:


> Sidmon: I have no idea what's going on in that picture (the photo, not the painting).
> 
> Can you tell the story?


That is the ruined bow of the US nuke sub, USS San Francisco. She hit a seamount while transiting submerged through the Caroline Islands at 38 knots.

Your picture is only as good as the data that went into it. In this case, there was a "position approximate" of discolored water (indicative of a seamount) three miles off intended course of the sub.

Came very close to being lost with all hands...

Another view (with the remains of the ruined sonar transducer array covered:










Story here:
(edited for more informative link...)

Why We Almost Lost the Submarine


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## sidmon (Aug 2, 2009)

Its been a sad trend in the USN for some time now, which can be squarely blamed on a mentality that, "we don't need to know all that old fashioned stuff...," and letting the black boxes do the thinking.

Another example:









With a sad story attached (to the tune of nearly 100 mil in US taxpayer $$$)....

Sub navigator was listening to iPod before £60m ship crash | Mail Online


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Ah, so that odd spherical blob of black griddy bits is the sonar transducer array... very cool.


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## sidmon (Aug 2, 2009)

So I guess my point is that, no matter the tools used...whether it be a keen read of the winds and seas and animals like the ancient Polynesians, or an astrolabe, or the latest GPS plotter...Its "YOU" who must do the navigating.

As can be seen by the incidents above, this latest generation of navigational electronics carry with them a subtle, but very dangerous, potential hazard. 

Its all too easy to trust them too much to do "YOUR" job.


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## sidmon (Aug 2, 2009)

Last digression...

This isn't only a US Navy thing. In the 90's, the airlines had real trouble transitioning pilots into the operation of electronic cockpits. Its still a challenge even today.

Also, check out this UK accident report of the 2008 Pride of Canterbury grounding:

*Although the VMS was not approved for use as the primary means of navigation, the officers on Pride of Canterbury were using it as if it was, despite the fact that many of them, including the chief officer, who was in charge at the time of the accident, were not fully trained in its use.
An ECDIS can only legally be used as the primary means of navigation if it uses official electronic navigational charts (ENC), and if a back-up system is provided and operator training has been completed. This back-up can be a full set of paper charts for the intended areas of navigation, or a second ECDIS. When these requirements are met, the system can be submitted for approval to the vessel's Flag State for use as the primary means of navigation. In the UK, them MCA will not approve an ECDIS system unless all users are properly trained in its use. Even though the unit provided on Pride of Canterbury had full ECDIS functionality, and was loaded with official ENCs, it was clearly stated in the company Fleet Regulations that the VMS was intended only as an aid to navigation, and that paper charts were the principal means of navigation.
Despite this, the distribution of monitors on the bridge encouraged the OOW to utilise the VMS to such an extent that it had become the "de facto" primary means of navigation. As a consequence, only limited use was made of the paper charts held on board. The lack of proper training in the use of ECDIS possibly led to the wreck being undetected. It is possible that the wreck on the shallow patch was displayed, but that the ECDIS symbol was misunderstood. Display options permit differences between the symbols displayed on paper charts and on ENCs (Figure 11). Another explanation, which is also linked to a lack of proper training, is that the "misapplication" of certain user settings may result in a dangerous underwater obstruction not being displayed on the screen.*

As these sophisticated electronic systems gain more entry into the recreational boating world, I expect we will see a rash of similarly baffling accidents...

So, as you gaze at all those sweet multifunction displays at West Marine, remember that they alone won't protect from the Sirens....


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Architeuthis said:


> BTW: I have been offshore out of sight of land with no GPS, No loran, sextent, astrolabe, or compass. No radio, by myself, with no one in sight, likely less than a dozen people in a hundred kilometer radius, and well over a hundred kilometers from home. More than once even, yet always or almost always home on time...must a been luck.


Uh, I'm not so sure I'd be braggin' about this happening more than once...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

You guys realize that a submarine WITH a binnacle compass, would still smash right into those uncharted seamounts.

Now, with a proper electronic display actively pinging...They could have avoided it. My point exactly. (VBG)


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## sidmon (Aug 2, 2009)

hellosailor said:


> You guys realize that a submarine WITH a binnacle compass, would still smash right into those uncharted seamounts.


Sure it could, but in the half century I've been around the USN, I cannot recall a period when there were so many very serious groundings and collisions.

Whats changed?

The widespread introduction of electronic navigation systems in the fleet.

Its a fundamental cognitive process that is involved here. Up until the advent of this generation of electronic nav displays, the deriving of a nav fix still contained manual elements. There was skill in play, and you were immediately aware of the probability of accuracy of your efforts. Today, all you have to do is hit the on button, and a very compellingly pretty picture stares back at you with all you seemingly need to know. Its mighty easy to take what you see in that "Thelxiope" at unquestioning face value.

This visceral disengagement in using whats between your ears as part of the process creates subtle, but very real dangers.

In the case of the San Francisco, nobody took the time to evaluate the larger scale nautical charts for potential hazards (widespread practice was to rely soley on the electronic bathy charts). If there had been more effort poring over the paper charts, that old (from 1963) hazard may well have been noticed, and prudence in the sub's SOA through those waters been more carefully exercised.

In the case of the Port Royal, even though everyone was aware they were in very close proximity to a dangerous (for that ship) coral reef, nobody practiced the very basic skills of visual pilotage, and instead relied on their improperly configured VMS. Irony is the ship is one of the navy's ace anti-ballistic missile shooters. While they may have been able to fight a war at the edge of space, they could not safely navigate just outside their homeport.

Point is: When it comes to navigation, you gotta keep your head in the game. Chartplotters and such are no substitute for basic skills. Eschewing a compass in favor of a multifunction display may be all well and good, but as the record shows, you'd better be very prudent in its use. And be completely competent in the processes by which it is delivering you the information.


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

sidmon said:


> So I guess my point is that, no matter the tools used...whether it be a keen read of the winds and seas and animals like the ancient Polynesians, or an astrolabe, or the latest GPS plotter...Its "YOU" who must do the navigating.
> 
> As can be seen by the incidents above, this latest generation of navigational electronics carry with them a subtle, but very dangerous, potential hazard.
> 
> Its all too easy to trust them too much to do "YOUR" job.


+1

You need to know the limitations of evert instrurment you are using and its limitations. I'm a a big proponent of looking for inconsistencies between multiple sources: compass, GPS, chart, sounder, radar, what ever I have available.

Sounds like the commpn thread in a lot of accidents is human error, relying on one source and putting too much faith in one item like a chartplotter.

One of the best tools IMHO, is a radar overlay on a chartplotter. Reality confirming hope.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Using the Mark I eyeball is really the best way to keep your head in the game IMHO... 

Just remember that the icon of the boat on the chartplotter is not representative of where the boat actually is in the real world, though it may bear some relationship to that at times. It is the position as calculated by referencing multiple satellites with a possible accuracy error in a interpretation of the real world that may be based on data that is years or decades old and created by a person who may or may not have been on drugs, stoned, hungover, etc at the time he created the chart.


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

sailingdog said:


> Using the Mark I eyeball is really the best way to keep your head in the game IMHO...
> 
> Just remember that the icon of the boat on the chartplotter is not representative of where the boat actually is in the real world, though it may bear some relationship to that at times. It is the position as calculated by referencing multiple satellites with a possible accuracy error in a interpretation of the real world that may be based on data that is years or decades old and created by a person who may or may not have been on drugs, stoned, hungover, etc at the time he created the chart.


SD I'll have to disagree that (at least in my experience) the boat icon is actually a very good representation of where the boat is in the world in most instances (if not almost always). Again at least in my experience it is accurate far more frequently than bearing "some relationship to that at times". I am not saying however that you should not be vigilant in considering at all times the possibility that the representatiomn of where the boat is on the chartplotter may not be accurate. Look at it like playing Russian roulette with a hundred round revolver. You still need to think about the one bullet in one of a hundred chambers. You need to be mindful of the possibility one error out of a hundred, or a thousand or what ever the possibilty.


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## Broomfondle (Apr 9, 2010)

I have really enjoyed this thread and the range of opinion is fascinating. It appears to stretch from ‘chart plotters make everything else obsolete’ through to ‘chart plotters make your brain seize up’. Given that everyone has made worthwhile points (which is true) then how can this all be reconciled? ECDIS is rapidly becoming mandatory, especially for larger vessels, presumably because it is considered to contribute to safety. The general trend then is clear. It strikes me that making better navigation information available should, usually, be a good thing. So is the issue really one of how to do this effectively without simultaneously suggesting that any less effort needs to go into thinking about navigation?


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## sidmon (Aug 2, 2009)

Broomfondle said:


> So is the issue really one of how to do this effectively without simultaneously suggesting that any less effort needs to go into thinking about navigation?


The reason this is a burr under my saddle is because I have seen the unintended/unexpected results from the change over from manual or partly manual systems, to fully automated ones in several different "worlds" now.

The first was in Combat Information Systems in the navy. From the late '60s into the 80s, we evolved from the grease pencil, rag, plexiglass board, and analog radars of WWII, to a hybrid computer manual system known as the Naval Tactical Data System (NTDS), then into the nearly all automated digital system known as Aegis (the Port Royal has the latest rendition of that).

Talking to the guys on the Aegis boats was my first experience with what you call "brain seize". While an NTDS system was an early computer system, it still required us to make mental calculations in the evaluation, dissemination, and presentation of the data. The "Robocruiser" guys just had to flip a switch, and automated symbology popped up for them. When I asked how could they spot radar ghosts in the Med(iterranian- a place noted for its wild radar anomaly conditions, and with an analog SPS-10 surface search radar you could see the difference between a ghost and a real target), they offered a dismissive answer about how they didn't have to. Well a couple of years after that, the lead Aegis ship, USS Ticonderoga, launched a Harpoon surface to surface missile on a radar ghost which the Aegis system was fooled into believing was real in the Gulf of Sidra during one of the scraps with Libya. 
The brain seizures got worse. Remember when this happened? Same phenomenon was at play. Because "the million dollar boards" -erroneously due to an IFF operator error- showed the aircraft as an F-14 nobody questioned that the contact was hostile, with tragic results. I had recently been in the same place on an NTDS boat doing the same job...and everybody KNEW there was no way the Iranians would use their F-14s in that manner. My first reaction when the news broke was, "wait a minute, somebody has something wrong." That information was available and known -but disregarded- on the Vincennes. Again, common sense and available knowledge were washed out by the glare of a compellingly believable electronic display.

Of note, the USS Sides, a smaller ship in company equipped with the older NTDS, correctly id'd the aircraft as a commercial. The Sides also tried to tell the Vincennes so and the aircraft was climbing on an airway instead of descending towards the US ships. Nobody on the Vincennes wanted to believe it.

I started calling your "brain seize" the "Vincennes Effect" after that.

Another place I have witnessed it is in the airline world. There, the effects can be immediate and brutal...

*In FMS-equipped aircraft, the portrayal of flightpath, (in the Boeing/Honeywell Systems-equipped airplanes by means of a magenta colored line), is so accurate and informative that pilots are permitted to rely on it as the primary means of navigation, believing that they are secure in the knowledge that the airplane will be maintained along a safe flightpath as long as the magenta line is followed. However, unlike charts, the FMS-generated displays do not present associated information, such as terrain, and do not display navaids that are behind the airplane unless specifically directed to by a flightcrew member. As a result, pilots who are accustomed to relying exclusively on FMS-generated displays for navigation, can, over time, fail to recognize the relative proximity of terrain and can lose the ability to quickly determine that a fix or beacon is behind them. The evidence suggests that this partially explains the difficulty of the AA965 flightcrew in locating the ULQ. Aeronautica Civil believes that the FAA should require pilots operating FMS-equipped aircraft to have open and easily accessible the approach and navigation charts applicable to each phase of flight before each phase is reached. *


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## sidmon (Aug 2, 2009)

Oh...and folks were shocked about what happened here...

After this thread nobody here should be. The Airbus cockpit is the most automated one there is.

As a matter of fact there is a standing joke about it:

"I hear they are replacing the Airbus co-pilots with a German Shepard"

"Really! Why?"

"So it can bite the pilot if he touches anything."


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## docfmiles (May 30, 2012)

Now that's what we needed to see. Nobody suggested throwing the compass overboard, but I no longer think it belongs on the binnacle. That's where the chartplotter belongs. Problem is, nobody makes a mount for it. Know where I can get one?


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

After messing with different setups over the years on many different boats, we like having both a binnacle compass and a chart plotter with radar on the pedestal. 

Yes, and I hope it goes without saying that relying exclusively on any one navigation source is not recommended. When the compass, the chart plotter, the depth sounder, the radar, your paper charts, your hearing, and your eyeballs all tell you the same thing, you probably are where you think you are.


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## docfmiles (May 30, 2012)

Thanks for your insights.
I am really amazed at how many have so misunderstood the crux of this issue. It is not a question of removing an instrument, e.g. the compass, but rather one of its' placement relative to the helm.

I have two lighted compasses mounted within easy view of the helm on either side of the cockpit, but having a 6'6" draft and using the ICW, I have found that the chartplotter is the most critical tool in my box and have placed it in the pre-eminent position...on the pedestal (binnacle) along with the depth sounder.
Once I get to the Gulf the compass becomes again the valuable tool that it has always been. 

I totally agree with your assessment regarding the sum of all input providing a better likelihood of a correct location. How many of us have been "lost" inside a shopping mall or parking lot?

I would guess the vast majority.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

TQA said:


> Between that and a hand bearing compass we survived till the boat was degaussed. Another story!


How do you degauss a boat.


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## nighthawk (Sep 25, 2013)

davidpm said:


> How do you degauss a boat.


Yeah, that's the question that's been nagging me too, but I thought it was going to be too silly to ask! I'm pretty sure you don't go outside and beat on the steel hull with a hammer until the molecules reorient themselves into random patterns again. HEHEHE. Now the wait for an answer begins.


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

davidpm said:


> How do you degauss a boat.


Electro-magnetic pulse?


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## P35juniper (Feb 11, 2010)

I've replaced my leaking binnacle compass with a bulkhead one that way I'm looking forward to see the compass and looking forward to see where I'm going. Just have to make sure noone sits in front of it. Then I placed the chartplotter on the binnacle.


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## arknoah (Oct 31, 2010)

Omatako said:


> When I'm hand steering at the wheel, the compass is the best reference to holding any form of course.
> 
> When the chips are really down and you're into DR navigation (it can happen to anyone) you can't do without a compass.


That's my bottom line, too. While I have tiller steering and no binnacle (alright, and no other cool electronic stuff, either) I know that just the visual of the compass or me is incredibly helpful, and an important backup.

The original post is definitely thought-provoking though, given the tremendous value of navigation and plotting equipment on the market. So, Kudos hellosailor for raising the important question.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

David-
degausing - Ships Nostalgia
Apparently you degauss a SHIP by hitting the "DEGAUSS" button and energizing your coil. For a boat, you could simply run a coil over or around it, assuming your local boatyard is equipped with one.

I think that's why most binnacle compasses are equipped with compensating magnets and a deviation card instead.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> And I started thinking, gee, that binnacle compass really is in the wrong spot.
> 
> Has anyone given over to this kind of heresy? Does it seem, well, like maybe the time has come?


I haven't read the rest of the thread as I am on lousy wifi... In an un lousy bar 
But I think the prominent position of the compass has passed.

Mine must have had a bit of a brutal life with the Sunsail cleaners because the glass is scuffed. If it was something I looked at like before autopilots and plotters I would have replaced it years ago. But it's never used.

If I did replace it I would be selecting a small, cheap, multi position compass as it would ever onlyrbe used at the helm in an emergency.

I was reading the ad in a magazine for Weems and Plath. That company is on the wrong horse!


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Old thread.

I'm surprised how few (one) mentioned that a compass does not give the same information as GPS. GPS says where you are going, not where you are pointed.

Tacking. Tell the helmsman port 100 degrees. GPS will not be so accurate over short periosd or at low speeds. In light air it will be plain stupid.

Anchored. Which way is the wind?

Current and Leeway. How much difference?

Silly. You need both.


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## 34crealock (Dec 30, 2012)

Since I singlehand most of the time, I have as much as I can afford at the helm. I can't be running below to check on instruments or charts. If it is a lovely day in familiar waters I have everything I need( eyes, ears)If I run into a fog bank I still have everything I need(eyes, ears, compass, plotter,radar,AIS VHF.) I have had everything but the compass crap out in bad weather in an airplane going 9 miles a minute so I never totally depend on electronics. Each of the"toys" are aids to navigation. Some of us remember Loran being the do all wonder gadget.


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## nighthawk (Sep 25, 2013)

hellosailor said:


> Apparently you degauss a SHIP by hitting the "DEGAUSS" button and energizing your coil.


Oh, yeah, the "DEGAUSS" button! Now, why didn't I think of that?? Could have saved all that time and effort with the hammer inside the hull! HEHEHE:laugher


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