# Cetol Vs Honey Teak



## e-27 sailor (Oct 1, 2003)

Let''s face it. There''s nothing more beautiful on a boat than yards of glistening bright work, (as long as it''s on someone else''s boat!) The old J Boats are something to behold, but require a full-time paid crew to maintain. 

So I want to get this right, the first time. After 20+ years on no maintenance, the exterior teak on my Express 27 is all coming off, and being replaced with new teak. 

I''m willing is spend as much time as required, but after I bolted it all back on, I don''t want to have to think about it, except for annual (once-a-year) maintenance. I''m looking for that high gloss, ''8 coats of varnish'' look, but something a lot more durable. 

I''ve heard good reviews on both CETOL and HONEY TEAK, and in another posting, someone even recommended a couple coats of varnish over these products.

Any thoughts?

Bill Park/
San Diego


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Another option that will give you that "8 coats of varnish" look and only require annual refinishing IS varnish. I keep all my brightwork covered with sunbrella except when using the boat. My regular Schooner varnish looks great and needs only a touch-up coat (or two) once a year in our Southern California sun. 
The boat is used once a week about 9 months a year.

Jim


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## e-27 sailor (Oct 1, 2003)

Thanks Jim. I have a can of EPIFANES Hi Gloss sitting on my work bench ready to go. Just want to make sure these other two products arn''t better/more durable.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Well Cetol has it''s own look and feel but is clearly distinguishable from varnish so even though I love it (2 coats of regular and 1 coat of gloss) you probably won''t like it. The one product which you should consider other than real varnish is the 2 part Bristol Finish system which is much more durable and looks just as good but is more hassle to apply the first time. 
Have fun!


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## efatzinger (Nov 30, 2000)

I Have heard of using thinned epoxy painted on and then polyurathane for depth will it work?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Varnish over Epoxy in the ONLY way to go if you want to keep maintenance to a minimum. Varnish looks great but water will eventually get underneath and begin to stain the wood and lift the varnish. I''m sure most of us have seen examples of boats with mostly beautiful shiny wood that is marred by water stains under the finish.
Epoxy looks great too and it seals out moisture very well, but it won''t stand up to the sun. 
The solution is to apply 2 or 3 coats of epoxy (not thinned - there is no need) and then apply varnish over that. The result is a deep rich look that looks like many coats of varnish. When the varnish begins to degrade you do a light sanding and another coat of varnish. As long as the waterproof seal is maintained this system will both look great and require the least maintenance. If you don''t want the full shine you can use satin varnish.
I''ve been very pleased with West System and Epiphanes. After having tried other approaches that didn''t last this has been very satisfying for me.
There is much more information on varnish over epoxy at www.westsystem.com
If you are going through all the trouble to replace you brightwork you''d be crazy not to use this method. 
I believe Hinckley Yachts uses this method as well.
Good Luck
AJS


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The search for the holy grail of wood finishes seems to never stop. I used to swear by a product called SunShield when I owned a wooden boat, they don''t make it any more. It had it''s own problems but worked great for me. I''ve used cetol, epoxy, poly and a few others that I can''t remember now. Epoxy works great until it fails. It will fail at the edges and where it gets chipped. Then it''s a pain. Cetol looks crapy until it fails. It''s an option for a wooden boat however.

There are some of the new-age finishes are very fussy. Don''t apply in certain humidity or it will blister. Don''t apply in the direct sunshine. How does that work??????? Nothing is worse than having to strip a complete finish job and redo it.

I find it boils down to one thing. How easy and forgiving is it to apply. I now use captains varnish. Two coats once a year. As an example of the forgiving nature of varnish, I had just completed the finish coat and it started to rain. I left the boat thinking I would have to sand it all off the next day and redo it. What a supprise to find it looked perfect the next day. 

I have never found anything that you can ignore. If you use the boat you will nick the woodwork or wear it off from a line rubbing against it. Then it need refinishing.

Have fun.
Gene


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

mmmm... I believe that "Smith & Co. 5 year clear" base coat is an epoxy. PS did a comparison a few years ago and rated "5 yr. clear" just below Honey Teak. 

Honey Teak is for TEAK only. Dont apply to Iroko or other exotics. 

My Honey teak job is now about 5yrs old and with minor repars will probably make it through this seasonl. Looks almost like varnish, can be buffed, repaired, etc. ... is damn expensive but when you amortize it over the lifetime comes out quite inexpensive ... and labor saving in comnparison to all the other coating that Ive tried.
--- I ''used to be'' a varnish fanatic. 

Epoxy undercoats exposed to sun: unless you add a heavy UV protectant coat (of something or other), the wood surface cells beneath the epoxy WILL degrade/oxidize and promote lifting, expecially if the wood isnt totally encapsulated to prevent moisture/ water vapor saturation.


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## gwp (Apr 9, 2003)

While we''re on the subject.....I just used Cetol for the first time, and what I want to know is exactly what happens when it does fail? I''ve been told that it won''t blister and peel, as traditional varnish will eventually. So.....does it start "chalking" off? Discolor? I am not looking for the "8 coat" look, just a decent shine (and seal) will do. I hope to apply a coat once per year. Thanks....Gary


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The problem with any coating is that it needs one or two coats when it still looks good to prevent a lot of extra work. This is a strange disipline. This generally involves lightly sanding off the outer layers and then adding 2 or 3 coats. One is never enough because of damage that need repair. You can spot fix the repair areas and then overcoat the entire area, but 2 coats are minimum to cover the sanding marks. 

When my Cetol failed it was dramatic and required complete removal. Weather prevented me from doing it just in time to prevent failure. It flaked off and the wood turned black under it. Not just in spots, but everywhere.

Gene


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## lauralee (Feb 26, 2002)

Has anyone heard of Penofin? It''s a marine finish that blocks 99% of UV rays. I am thinking of trying it on a swim platform. Anybody know anything?


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## efatzinger (Nov 30, 2000)

The proper way to assure yourself of a finish that lasts is to completly seal the wood (almost impossible) yes that means every edge and or surface. Other than droping something like a winch handle,or wearing cleats onboard the most likely place for your finish to lift is where you attach it to the vessel. very few people go to this lenght to finish a brightwork area,(I don''t) I would rather sail than have a museum piece)so the shortcut is to tape off the deck and carefully cut around the piece in question.perhaps it would be extreme but if you drilled out the screw holes a bit and filled them with epoxy then finished the wood,rebed it and reattach to vessel the finish would not fail other than the uv problem. I suppose someone will have to invent plastic teak that doesn''t deteriorate.


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## e-27 sailor (Oct 1, 2003)

Thank kend & All, I think you''re right about sealing every edge. The problem of coures is getting thing off intact, removing the bedding, epoxy/varnish, and then re-bed. But since I''m starting from scratch with new teak, hopefully I can do the job right, the 1st time. 

I''m still struggling with how to drill the holes through the hand rails for the thru-bolts, without a drill press. I''ll probably need to pay someone. After that, I think it''s a simple matter of installing the bolts, epoxy them in, add the caps and expoxy everthing. I''ll be curious to see how easy the old handrails come off.


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## efatzinger (Nov 30, 2000)

e-27
There used to be a tool that attached to a drill called a portalign,it''s function was to allow a person to drill a hole perpendicular to the plane it was set on,Ideal for drilling on round surfaces. Unless you are filling all the old holes and attaching the rail somewhere other than the original spot you can mark holes from old piece and drill. Also a side note since you are pulling the old ones off, and more than likely putting them in the same place, take the time to drill a larger hole where the bolts came thru and epoxy them then redrill the proper size hole for the bolt this will also keep moisture from entering your hull.by the way you can buy an inexpensive bench type drill press or a base for your drill for less than fifty dollars. good luck with your project.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

On Cetol, I initially like the finish and really liked easy maintenance. But after 5 years of application to the letter of the instructions, the finished teak noticablely darkened, alot, and areas that needed repair would not match at all. Then it all started peeling off -- as water got under scratches, etc.
In retrospect, I think putting the gloss finish on top of the light version would be a way to go to prevent buildup. Fortunately, I sold the boat, so that''s someone elses project. My new (to me) boat has varnish on the teak, so I think I''ll go with that for the time being and see how it goes, and if technology ever triumphs over weather and sun, and wear and tear, then I''ll rethink it.


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## sati8d (Jun 21, 2012)

Interesting topic as I've used both.
I had cetol on my last boat and it didn't last 20 days at sea - the salt cooked on from the trans-At chewed right threw it....which was fine and I went grey for the rest of the 3-yr cruise.
Since, I bought a boat with WAY too much teak on it - Shannon 43 Ketch - that had honey teak on it. I've been trying it and I can see why the previous owner used it sailing in Maine and NS. Down here on the Chesapeake is a lot more sun but the literature says it will last 3-5 yrs with minor maintenance...I'll believe that when I see it.
So far, it's easy to use - damn expensive, but does go a long way.
I really like the epoxy varnish idea...if I ever want to spend a month of stripping and revarnishing....NOT!! I bought this boat to cruise and sail...not yachtify it.


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