# Big problem with 1987 Catalina 27'



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

After a minor grounding, just a touch actually we developed a leak least summer. Ground it out a bit and reglassed. 
This spring the lift operator noticed a bad noise and the boat took on water again.
We ground it again and the glass we put in was solid but we see more blank goop.
Pictures follow.
Is this boat repairable, how?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

thats nasty, well the saying goes "if it's fiberglass, it can be repaired" looks like a job for a pro.


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

Is the keel solid lead or encapsulated in glass?


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

It looks like you have at least 2 voids in the hull. In picture 3 you have one on the keel stub, and one to port of that. I will agree with USPirate, looks like a job for a pro. Of course I'm never one to follow my own advice, so I would get out the grinder and have at it until the voids are gone. You will likely have a large hole or two in your boat when you're done. Then it's time for a few gallons of epoxy, the appropriate fiberglass for the job, and fillers for fairing later. Don't forget the barrier coat before the bottom paint goes back on.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Get in a professional. I think you could very quickly make things a lot worse than they are now.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

SimonV said:


> Get in a professional. I think you could very quickly make things a lot worse than they are now.


You need a professional that prior patch was clearly done without knowledge of structural fiberglass repair.

There is a big difference between cosmetic repair (which the previous one was) and structural. You also should check your stringers. It's possible one is cracked and no matter what you do for repair if a stringer is cracked it will create future issues..


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> After a minor grounding, just a touch actually we developed a leak least summer. Ground it out a bit and reglassed. This spring the lift operator noticed a bad noise and the boat took on water again. We ground it again and the glass we put in was solid but we see more blank goop. Pictures follow. Is this boat repairable, how?


 Unfortunately the damage has occurred in an area that sees a fair amount of stress. In order to repair it, you are going to have to open the boat up about 6 feet on either end of the keel (fore and aft) in order to replace the roving that is there. The keel loading needs to be spread over the hull as much as possible, and this happens via the hull structure itself, and also partly through the stringers. The long pieces of roving transmit a fair amount of this loading through the hull. Doing a spot repair doesn't do much except plug the hole, and then when the keel starts to flex, the repair material works its way out of the hole and you're back to square one.

I don't know what yard charges are like in your area, but up here, I would expect to pay well north of 10K to have that fixed. Even then, I would have doubts about the seaworthiness of the boat, because the repair will be done with resins that are probably stiffer and stronger than the original hull, and the adhesion between the new and the old may not be that great.

I don't know how much you have invested in the boat, but my advice would be to claim as much as you can from your insurance company and walk away from her. Sad event I know but it's hard to think that the boat will ever be safe again.

Good Luck !


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

denby said:


> Is the keel solid lead or encapsulated in glass?


The Catalina 27 has a small glass keel about 12" which houses the bilge then the lead keel is bolted to a piece of plywood in the bottom of the bilge that is encapsulated in glass.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

halekai36 said:


> You need a professional that prior patch was clearly done without knowledge of structural fiberglass repair.
> 
> There is a big difference between cosmetic repair (which the previous one was) and structural. You also should check your stringers. It's possible one is cracked and no matter what you do for repair if a stringer is cracked it will create future issues..


What do you mean. The previous repair had several layers of cloth. What else should have been done.
I donn't belive the Catalina 27 has stingers. Tell me exactly what to look for.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

David...I am thinking the black goop is the plywood. You need to drop the keel...effect repairs to the keel stub...replace the plywood with stainless...make the repairs to the keel....and bolt it all back together. You may also have keel bolt damage, but likely it is just the plywood. 
Good luck!

BTW...I think Halekai is referring to the fact that you are repairing a very heavy, load bearing surface that is under considerable stress in use. This means your repair needs may need to be extended quite a bit both internally and externally to provide the proper bond and support. Obviously the right materials and prep job must also be done, but I assume you did that before making your repair. To me..the repair looks more of a "patch" than a structural repair....but it is very tough to tell from mere pictures.


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## PatrickDDore (Aug 16, 2018)

I am looking for a old roomy sailboat for my son to live on in San diego while he goes to college and for the family to use occasionally to sail and play on. I am looking for a great deal of course but the mooring has a 25' max at $735 a year or $225 a month for a larger boat end tie. We are all around 6' tall so we need the space(height and width) and I keep seeing the Catalina 25' looks to be the way to go with a pop top. These boats seem to run from $3000 to $10,000 depending on options, age, condition etc. I also see a 1974 Cal 25 for $300 that needs some wood work in the salon/galley/cabin. I see that all older boats could have "unseen" soft spot/glass/wood issues. I am just asking should I just really check out the Cal 25 since its a good deal or just wait for the Catalina 25 or 27 to come along for the right price? The Cal 25 owner said there might be termite issues, that seems to be a red flag for the rest of the boat as well hun? please help me as soon as possible.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Patrick,

You might want to re-post this on a new thread with a title like "Looking for a Cheap Liveaboard in the San Diego Area".

There are SO many boats that would work for your son (and you). Congratulations on finding a spot that allows living aboard, they are not always easy to find. My sugestion is to look around for what is available in your area. I personally would get the largest boat that is in my price range - including moorage/docking fees. Going to college is a challenge. Having a confortable "nest" makes it easier. Being at a dock is much easier than at a mooring. By the way, I lived in a 21' boat for a year while I got my degree. I would look for a boat that is in as good as condition as possible. Bottom line, look for what is available.

Ignoring my own advice, which I easily do, I might suggest you look at Catalina 30's. Quite a bit of "bang-for-your-buck". Pretty comfortable pad for a college guy.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Patrick- 
I would suggest that unless your son has good experience and enjoyed living out of the back of a station wagon, you shouldn't try to mix up boats and college. Put him in a dorm or an apartment with roomates. There is such as thing as a college social life, it is an important part of the experience (even without booze or drugs) among other things, his classmates are within easy distance.
The distractions of keeping an old boat afloat, and of trying to stow away all his stuff when you conveniently want to sail, make it very unlikely this will not be a disaster. Unless, as mentioned, he's been comfortable living out of the back of a car and thinks that won't be a further distraction.
I'm sure they will assign him an advisor. Ask at the college, I suspect they will tell you this is the wrong way to go.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Unfortunately the lead keel Catalina 27 along with most of the older Catalina's have known issues with the keel. Once the keel bolts have been compromised you have to install a retrofit kit after repairing the damage to the plywood in the keel trunk.

Catalina Direct is very explicit on how the boat will not be as seaworthy as it originally was once the keel bolts have been compromised and a retrofit kit is installed so the only way to get the boat back to full seaworthiness is to replace the keel with a new one after the damaged trunk is fully repaired.

Here is the full text from Catalina Direct on this matter:

"Please call Catalina Direct tech support at 916/843-1971 for additional information and assistance with this order.

Not for use on a swing keel boat.

Special 8" long, 1/2" diameter lag bolts are electropolished type 316 stainless steel for longer life. Includes extra long 18" drill bit.

Important safety message: It is critical you understand that the retrofit lag bolts will not be as strong as the original bolts once were. The original bolts were first bent in a "J" shape, then cast into the molten lead. Don't expect to add this kit to your boat, then sail it to the Bahamas! If the original keel bolts are degraded, the boat is not and will not be as seaworthy as it once was."​
https://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/3501_60/bolt-retrofit-kit-for-lead.cfm

Catalina on Brian Dairy Road in Largo Florida will provide you with guidance on getting the boat properly repaired too however it may as others have mentioned be quite costly to get it done correctly and back to full seaworthiness.

Keep in mind that a 1987 Catalina 27 is worth $10,300 to $11,450 needing some repairs but not something major like keel trunk failure and once back in good shape only needing some cosmetic work is still only going to be worth $11,800 to $13,100 depending on whether it has the outboard or inboard diesel option.

Bottom line is a "Bargain" Catalina that is priced like a "Give Away" is more likely to have some level of keel trunk or keel bolt damage which the seller found is going to cost more than its worth to repair. Puts a real damper to the end of your school day to find your room and all its contents sitting underwater at a dock due a failing keel finally letting go.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

SeaStar58 said:


> Unfortunately the lead keel Catalina 27 has known issues with the keel. Once the keel bolts have been compromised you have to install a retrofit kit after repairing the damage to the plywood in the keel trunk.
> 
> Catalina Direct is very explicit on how the boat will not be as seaworthy as it originally was once the keel bolts have been compromised and a retrofit kit is installed so the only way to get the boat back to full seaworthiness is to replace the keel with a new one after the damaged trunk is fully repaired.
> 
> ...


I think that after 10 years he's either fixed the problem or sunk the boat.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

TakeFive said:


> I think that after 10 years he's either fixed the problem or sunk the boat.


I noticed afterwards that this was a Zombie thread that someone re-purposed to a question about using a bargain boat as a dorm room. Still mostly the same answer though since "Bargain Boat" and "Landfill Boat" are too often synonymous especially when considering known problem boats like the older fixed keel Catalina's. Yes they can be nice if they were properly maintained however way too many are unfortunately not maintained very well and only cosmetically patched on the cheap by the seller.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Buy yourself a boat and put your son in a dorm room. If you can't afford both consider sending hime to school in the midwest where things are cheaper so you could afford a boat in Sd.

Unless he is incredibly charismatic and enjoys living in a remote cramped space, he would be better off living with his pears in a dorm, not with piers on a boat. Living on poptop 25 footer on a mooring ball is not the lap of luxury.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

jephotog said:


> Buy yourself a boat and put your son in a dorm room. If you can't afford both consider sending hime to school in the midwest where things are cheaper so you could afford a boat in Sd.
> 
> Unless he is incredibly charismatic and enjoys living in a remote cramped space, he would be better off living with his pears in a dorm, not with piers on a boat. Living on poptop 25 footer on a mooring ball is not the lap of luxury.


As someone who has counseled many college students, I agree with both of the commenters above who advise against a college student living on a boat. (you didn't say whether he is a freshman or an older student). Students usually experience a drop in grades when they move off campus, even those who move to an apartment close to campus. Students who remain in the dorms generally maintain higher grades due to something called "total immersion in the academic atmosphere".

When kids live in the dorm, everyone they know, and everyone they hang out with, are also college students. Dorms get more quiet during finals week because most everybody is studying for finals.
People who live around him in a marina aren't going to care much if he has an exam or a paper due on Monday morning and needs a quiet place to study.

When students move off campus, it increases times when they are late or miss classes because of oversleeping, because their car wouldn't start, or they didn't feel like running that far in the pouring rain. Here in the Midwest, our off-campus students miss classes during the winter semester due to snow and ice storms. I'm guessing, that in San Diego, you will need to find a boat that has air conditioning for him to be comfortable year-round.

If the boat has to be hauled out for repairs, where will he stay and study while it's being repaired?


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

midwesterner said:


> People who live around him in a marina aren't going to care much if he has an exam or a paper due on Monday morning and needs a quiet place to study.
> 
> I'm guessing, that in San Diego, you will need to find a boat that has air conditioning for him to be comfortable year-round.
> 
> If the boat has to be hauled out for repairs, where will he stay and study while it's being repaired?


You don't need A.C. living in San Diego if you live within 3 miles of the coast, except for a few times a year and it's not worth it to maintain it till then.

The O.P. is not looking for a luxury boat to house his son while in college. He is looking for "roomy" 25 footer to be put on a mooring for less than $1,000 a year. To me that is the biggest draw back. A 25 footer with pop-top in a mooring field would be a great vacation spot but lousy freshman housing. My biggest concern would be the commute to and from the boat to school.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

jephotog said:


> You don't need A.C. living in San Diego if you live within 3 miles of the coast,....
> 
> The O.P. is not looking for a luxury boat to house his son while in college. He is looking for "roomy" 25 footer to be put on a mooring for less than $1,000 a year. To me that is the biggest draw back. A 25 footer with pop-top in a mooring field would be a great vacation spot but lousy freshman housing. My biggest concern would be the commute to and from the boat to school.


It's good to know that air conditioning isn't needed in San Diego. You and I are in agreement about the commute for a college student. No one on here has mentioned a "luxury boat". Scotty C-M did suggest a Catalina 30, as a boat that might provide a little more reasonable room and comfort for a college student trying to live aboard.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

midwesterner said:


> Scotty C-M did suggest a Catalina 30, as a boat that might provide a little more reasonable room and comfort for a college student trying to live aboard.


I agree a C30 would make a nice college housing situation for the right kind of person. The O.P. wanted a 25 foot fixer upper on the hook. His neighbors would mostly be people who are one step above homeless. There a number of derelict boats with derelict people in the mooring fields of SD.

If you live inland in SD A.C. is needed, sometimes year round.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

jephotog said:


> The O.P. wanted a 25 foot fixer upper on the hook. His neighbors would mostly be people who are one step above homeless.


And this brings up many other downsides of such a life for a college student. The OP did mention that they had also priced the cost of an end tie dock.

I can't imagine having to commute by dingy each morning to get to school. And there would be all of the inconveniences of not being hooked up to shore services like water and electric. While having to focus on studies, I would hate to have to worry about monitoring battery charge, travelling to the pump out dock regularly, and worrying about refilling the freshwater tank.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Dave, the 27 Catalina has stringers, one on each side of the keel that run the full length of the boat, if I recall correctly. There are others as well that are parallel to the two adjacent to the keel. Now, I seriously doubt that you have damaged the stringers, but the plywood the keel is bolted to could be in the process of rotting from water intrusion. That would be my biggest concern. This could be checked out by using a hydro-meter and looking for a wet spot from inside the bilge the next time the boat is pulled. Of course the bilge must be completely dry to do this.

Good luck,

Gary


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

PatrickDDore said:


> should I just really check out the Cal 25 since its a good deal or just wait for the Catalina 25 or 27 to come along for the right price? The Cal 25 owner said there might be termite issues, that seems to be a red flag for the rest of the boat as well hun? please help me as soon as possible.


Cal 25 is a solid hull, and might well be worth a look. However, I think it unlikely that this will meet your secondary purpose of family sailing. At $300 and with "possible termite issues" (read bug infestation and lots of neglect), it's probably not sailable without work.


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## overthehorizon (Apr 7, 2018)

davidpm
A long time ago, I owned two different Catalina 27s for a total of about 10 years so I am somewhat familiar with them. I think camaraderie and Sailormann are on the right track. A simple patch of the crack will not do. This is appears to be a serious structural repair. About 8 years ago I had to rebuild the skeg on my Valian 40 which is a similar operation to which you might be in for. There is a tremendous amount of grinding to do. Do consult with a knowledgeable fiberglass man as he can explain just how far back the areas need to be ground and to what depth. I tried to attach two images of my skeg repair to give some idea of the process but they would not load properly. The prep sanding on my skeg took me 18 man hours and a lot of sanding disks. For the layup, I hired 2 experienced fiberglass men who could work as a team and keep a proper work flow. They could put on only so many layers of glass at a time due to heat build up of the curing resin. In all, there were 22 layers of all sorts of structural and oriented cloths. I think I paid those guys $2,500 or $3,000 for that work, including materials. I did all the finish and fairing and priming and painting. For the value of an older Catalina 27, that could very well be good advise to call the insurance company and see what happens. Good luck.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Again, after 10 years he's either fixed the problem or sunk the boat.


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

It doesn't matter as there are many here who will argue various random points as long as another person answers. I am beginning to think that is the purpose of this website and it is mostly the regulars, not trolls.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

Just grind all the bad stuff out and lay some Baiaxel you will be fine.... no pro needed...


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