# new 120% genoa



## john f (Jul 22, 2012)

I have two questions.
A. I met with a sailmaker yesterday to discuss the purchase of a new sail. he showed me samples of the newer non-woven sails materials. As an average sailor they looked much the same. yet there were two quotes, one for a GMX club racer ($2k) and another higher tech ($3k). The more expensive would last 20% longer. I inherited sails with the boat. I have noticed the composite sails have all aged quicker than the woven sails, and one certainly has developed a noticeable leech curl. OK, so the more expensive plastic sails are meant to hold their shape longer, BUT if this is at the cost of leach curls, isn't it simply better to get good quality dacron, and accept the inevitable "bagging" which would take a long time , and misuse , to develop.?

B. i have decided to go with a max 120% genoa. I usually sail and race short handed. .And the phrf modification allows me a little more latitude for mistakes !
BUT , and here is the rub, there must be a percent of overlap for my boat, around 120% (115%? 130%?) that would provide the maximum drive for the phrf buck. The sailmaker did not think this was important. I know this is a difficult question, but surely the wing shape of the foresail/mainsail combination can be optimised for a particular sailplan.
The boat is a lovely Abbott 33, which I am not sailing as well as she deserve to be handled!

Answers to either A or B will be carefully perused. Thank you.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

A) It is your boat and your money. If you are feeling flush and want to try out the newer plastic/laminar sails then go for it. Keep in mind though that by and large the average consumer of newer technology sails usually has a large budget for replacing said sails on a 2 - 5 year cycle and may be racing for a larger sardine dish then is awarded in your PHRF races. If it were my money I'd opt for a high quality Dacron sail as it is a tried and true technology. I'd even buy said sail(s) from an offshore maker like sailwarehouse.com (Rolly Tasker) and save another boat buck or two.

B) With my boat (Tartan 27') we are allowed a maximum of up to 155% jib without incurring a PHRF penalty. One school of thought on this dictates that you should carry as much fore sail area as practical for maximum lift and power. The downside to this philosophy is that when it is windy you might be over powered even if the sail is partially furled. Being over canvassed while short handed is clearly not an ideal situation. 
Your idea of going with around 120% makes sense if there frequently are good winds where you sail. The boat will sail flatter and faster with less stress on crew and rigging.
Lastly I'd defer to the Abbott 33's designers recommended fore sail area: ABBOTT 33 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
There is little point (IMHO) in putting on a such a large head sail that your boat ends up with the dreaded lee helm. From the spec I linked your main and jib should be very close in sail area resulting in a balanced helm.

Your boat, your money, your choice.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Traditionally laminate sails hold a good shape for much longer than Dacron. Dacron while it looses a good shape quickly continues to hold some shape for longer. 

Basically Dacron will be bagged out after a year or so of hard use. While a laminate sail will continue to look fine. Three years down the road however the Dacron will still look bagged out but usable, while the laminate pretty much has to be replaced.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

It really depends on what your priorities are. Are you going to campaign your boat seriously? Are you and your crew at an elite level where the incremental improvement that you get from the hottest racing sails is going to be noticeable? Or are you just looking to go out and hone your skills with beercan racing?

What a lot of casual racers do is buy a good, durable dacron mainsail, and then go with a good laminate headsail for racing only, and use their old sails for cruising and daysailing. Sure it doesn't have the cool factor of having a matching suit of high tech sails, but it is a more practical solution if you are on a budget. Remember, modern dacrons are very high quality and will last for many years. They will not be "bagged out" after a couple of years! They are very low stretch materials too. Mainsails do not get nearly as much punishment as a headsail does, and they tend to be built out of heavier cloth.

When it comes to racing laminates the goal is the lightest possible sail for a given strength, and they do sacrifice durability. A more expensive sail does not necessarily mean more durable or longer lasting; often the opposite is true! The most expensive racing headsail you can get will be ruined very quickly just by using it in higher than designed wind speeds!

With regards to what size genoa you should get, it really depends on what the prevailing conditions you sail in are. Your handicap will be adjusted based on your sail area, so you will rate slower with a smaller sail. In some cases it may even move you into a different division, so you should run the numbers by your handicapper and see what it does for your rating. I couldn't speak to what the optimum sail area for your particular boat is, but typically racers go for the maximum sail area they can carry. A larger sail will not give you balance problems such as lee helm as some have stated. Such problems are a factor of rig tuning more than headsail size.


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## Tweegs (Jun 25, 2010)

Here’s how it broke down for us on a 40 footer:

The Dacron sails, main and 135 genoa, were going around $2700 each. With a re-cut here and there they were expected to last 20 years. They will stretch and become less efficient as time goes on.

The Pentax (mylar/Kevlar), which we got, were 5 grand each and expected to last around 10 years. (we blew out the old main in a gale so the insurance company bought us that one, minus the deductable). These will hold their shape well, a rapid decline at the end.

The carbon fiber sails were pushing 8 grand each and expected to only last up to 5 years. Strong and light weight, but degrade quickly…don’t leave them out in the sun.

I can’t attest to the longevity figures, they are only what I was told by the maker. 

Seems to me that by going with a local loft, especially when racing, there is a level of support from the sail maker that you can’t get from mail order. Our maker came out to the boat for measurements, was willing to go for a ride, adjust the rigging, check the cut, and make sure the sails were flying right…at no additional cost (save a beer or two).


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## john f (Jul 22, 2012)

Thank you for the replies.
I notice that there have been no comments on the specific question of LEACH CURLS.( Maybe all sails get leach curls.)
Secondly, no comments on how differing SMALL degreeS of overlap affect
sail drive of foresail/mainsail combination. the sailmaker had not thought about it either. ( I guess this is advanced aeronautics, and an impossible question. Was just curious is all. ) The phrf allows a variation of 10% for same handicap allowance, which is quite a bit.
Thanks everybody, for your attention. john f.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Leech curl is not a function of the sail material but rather the amount of leech cord tension that is left on. Sails with large roaches tend to flutter when not completely trimmed in. Far too often, the trimmer will use the leech cord rather than trim this out. Far worse is leaving the tension on at all times. This eventually warps the leach leaving a permanent cup. The other big cause is motoring with the main up and fluttering. This stretches out the leach area, requiring more leech tension and more cupping. If you experience flutter on a brand new sail, take your sail maker out so he can make proper re-cut on the sail. Laminates are no more prone to leech cupping than ones made of Dacron.

Genoa size (and overlap) is really dependant upon your local conditions. In San Francisco PHRF, there is a slight (3 second) break between a 120 and 121% Genoa. Samller headsails give you the ability to point higher but with the penalty of being less powerful on a reach or a run.


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## tap (Apr 1, 2009)

Consider where the sail will sheet to. Oftentimes a sail like a 120-130 on a boat designed to fly a 150 won't sheet very well. It's too big to sheet inside the shrouds like a 105 and yet not big enough to wrap around the shrouds and back in to a track where the 150 would sheet.


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## sonosail (Mar 17, 2008)

john f said:


> I have two questions.
> A. I met with a sailmaker yesterday to discuss the purchase of a new sail. he showed me samples of the newer non-woven sails materials. As an average sailor they looked much the same. yet there were two quotes, one for a GMX club racer ($2k) and another higher tech ($3k). The more expensive would last 20% longer. I inherited sails with the boat. I have noticed the composite sails have all aged quicker than the woven sails, and one certainly has developed a noticeable leech curl. OK, so the more expensive plastic sails are meant to hold their shape longer, BUT if this is at the cost of leach curls, isn't it simply better to get good quality dacron, and accept the inevitable "bagging" which would take a long time , and misuse , to develop.?
> 
> B. i have decided to go with a max 120% genoa. I usually sail and race short handed. .And the phrf modification allows me a little more latitude for mistakes !
> ...


Rated LPG makes a BIG difference in PHRF racing. (especially for boats of moderate disp.)
Every district has a different 'datum' for the standard rating.
Many start from 155% of LP. 
So it would be something like the following: (rating based on LARGEST sail in your inventory) 
155% no change std rating
145% (+3)
135% (+5)
125% (+7)
etc.......... (some other factors I've left out)
In a long skinny boat, like this one, with a small foretriangle to begin with, overlap means speed upwind.
You want to at least think this through before you send big money on a headsail. 
(I'm not selling sails.).
Just something to consider.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Pretty boat, the A33...

Lots of good points made above.. we're sailing a 3/4 frac with a small headsail (100% or so) and find that we're lacking below 8 knots true but pretty comfortable and moving well above that, though we're not racing so don't have a direct comparison.

In many cases, esp with the large J dimension boats, using a 120% jib results in poorer sheeting angles than a 150 because the shroud base can't fit within the camber of the sail, resulting in reduced pointing ability. On a previous IOR masthead 40 footer we left the #2 at home and used the 155 or the working jib depending on conditions. (Upwind sailing was the only way to get anywhere from where we lived) 

In the case of the Abbott 33, though, she's probably narrow enough to get by. So then it's a numbers game as you compare the rating break vs light air losses..

As to what material to buy, we've had good results with 'hard' dacron mains and pentex headsails on our last couple of boats.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Stumble seems to have it about right for the differences between laminate and woven sails. It might be useful to look at woven sails as if they were knitted wool sweaters. When you first put it on, it fits beautifully. Wear it a few times in a touch football game or two and it begins to change. The sleeve you rolled up to show off your tattoo is looser than the other one. The bottom droops a bit on the left side where Steve tried to stop you from crossing the goal line. The wool is still there, still the same color and softness, and just as warm as ever. But it will never fit the same way it originally did. Woven sails are similar. Ten or more years old, they may LOOK ok - very little wear & tear, and still as white as new - but their SHAPE will never be the same. Laminates are more like airplane wings. The way they are made keeps their shape from changing at all -- until something in their construction gives, and the whole thing suddenly self-destructs because the glue fails, or because luffing creates a weak spot that cracks. You pays your money and makes your choice. 

For the different sized genoas, sono has good advice about trying to get the best rating. The question then becomes how accurate the different ratings for the different sized sails are. If you get a smaller than standard sail, and the rating changes by 5 seconds per mile to compensate you for that, do you actually sail five seconds per mile slower with the smaller sail? If you only sail three seconds per mile slower with the smaller sail, it gives you a two second per mile advantage to use that sail. If you sail six seconds per mile slower with the smaller sail, the five second change isn't enough, and going with that sized sail would put you at a disadvantage. Figuring this all out might take three or four seasons, and the PHRF committee could change things for you if you started winning too many races. The best thing to do might be to determine what size sail you'd like to use most of the time. If Toronto is a heavy-air venue, a smaller sail might simply be easier to handle, and wouldn't affect boatspeed that much. If Toronto tends to lighter air, you'll get more use - and enjoyment - from a bigger sail. Go with the jib you'll get the most from.

Also in light of woven sails, I spoke with a sailmaker this summer who told me about a problem he'd had with a polyester sail succumbing to UV degradation in a very short time. It appears Dupont no longer makes dacron. Nobody does. Different companies make variouis polyester fibers, and it gets woven into sailcloth, such as Pentex. The problem this sailmaker had was that somewhere along the way the new producers tweaked the formula, and the polyester fiber became less UV-resistant than the "old stuff:". The manufacturer replaced all the damaged material, but the sailmaker still had to build a new suit of sails for the boat. Something to be aware of: polyester is not immune to UV.


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## john f (Jul 22, 2012)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.Clearly the advantage gained in secs per mile for a smaller genoa is often dependant on chance and wind strength. we had our club regatta on saturday last with wind gusting to 25 knots. By dint of sticking it out when others went home (lost two full length battens from the old main I was using..... silly or what!) got a flag. Now i had the perf that went with a 120% genoa, and used a blade jib. (and the blade was too big a sail really.......but how often do you need a 70%sized no.1 jib?) If i had the perf of a boat with a full sized genoa prob would have not got the flag. so chance played a role, as it must do with any hadicapping system.

Your info on the difficulty with "dacron " sails is very interesting. Does Practical Sailor know about this? Any sailmakers out there prepared to comment?
Once again to members, thanks for the input. john f


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Tweegs said:


> The carbon fiber sails were pushing 8 grand each and expected to only last up to 5 years. Strong and light weight, but degrade quickly&#8230;don't leave them out in the sun.


"It is naturally black in color and is essentially unaffected by UV exposure." 
Doyle Sailmakers: Fiber Guide

Carbon is great in the sun. No worries. What it doesn't like is bending. Carbon is brittle. It's all a trade off.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I have a 110 made of North Nor-lam, got maybe 4 season out of it, very few miles/races! In the mean time, my 155 is an ullman fiberpath, not sure how many miles. tacks, racs etc, still pulling very well at 3 yrs. 

Personally, some of the laminates are less than 20% more compared to woven, the performance parts last longer etc. so why not spend the difference. Along with true laminate's will not stretch in equal or the upper range of a given sail, so you do not heel or loose speed as much. 

My def of true laminates would be my fiberpath, 3dl, Ullmans CAL, some of the mylar with carbon or other scrim in the middle. The norlam while a laminate, it is still mostly dacron.

As mentioned, which sail size to choose will depend. I have a code 2 ie small spin, I get a 9 sec credit for it, yeah it is 600#vs my 155 at 345. but going downwind wing on wing with the 155, I seem to go faster than the smallish cruise spin I have. SO while I am 9 secs slower in rating, I go about the same speed. So going with a smaller sail in this case, has no advantage.

Same as a folding vs nonfolding prop. Locally you get 9 secs for a fixed 2 blade vs a folder. One goes MORE than 9 secs a mile faster with a folder than a fixed, Even the Campbell. So if one is wanting to race reasonably competitive, one needs a folding prop vs a fixed.

Yesterday the wind was in the 10-20 range, initially, so we thru up a 140 vs 155, we still did 7+ down wind a few time, beat boats rated upwards of 15 secs faster in our division etc. Once the wind calmed down to the 15 knot range, the 155 went up, gained the lost 1/4 to 1/2 knot as the wind died. A 110 would have been slower yet as the wind went down!

Marty


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

The credits for smaller headsails are just that, credits not true rating adjustments based on real performance. The A33 has a SA/D of 20.3 which is pretty good. The determining factor should be the average wind conditions in your area. If the wind, on average, is 10 knots or less go with the 155%. If the wind averages higher than that go with the smaller headsail and get the credit. The sail prices you mentioned seem about right although there are some less expensive alternatives across the border. I got a 155% Twaron (Kevlar) for less than $2,000 made with Dimension Flex cloth. The sail was made in the US.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

sonosail said:


> Rated LPG makes a BIG difference in PHRF racing. (especially for boats of moderate disp.)
> Every district has a different 'datum' for the standard rating.
> Many start from 155% of LP.
> So it would be something like the following: (rating based on LARGEST sail in your inventory)
> ...


I bought a racing jib three or four years back. We went with kevlar, and did much better racing than we had with dacron. And although it is startingto show its age, it has held its shape much better than our last dacron jib. we do not use it cruising.

As to size, you should consider the prevailing conditions in your area. Because we sail in Narragansett Bay (where the winds are pretty consistent), we went for a 145 and got the three point PHRF credit (we think this worked out well for us). If you are in the Long Island Sound or an area where the winds are generally lighter, you may want to go for the full 155.


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## jfdubu (Jul 18, 2002)

John F, My 4 cents.

7 years ago I was faced with the exact same question. New boat (to me) bag of rags for sails, desire for beer can and some club racing and Narragansett bay area cruising.

I bought a new dacron main, higher level fabric from an off shore source and the following year again a high quality dacron 135% jib, sourced offshore.

What I got were and still are very good working sails. I still win an occasional race and are always competitive. I make far more tactical and brain fart mistakes that faster sails would not correct. 

That being said, Don't do what I did. Get the dacron sails but get them from a local loft. Make sure they come with check out from the sailmaker so you can learn from him/her how the sail is supposed to look and be trimmed at differant points of sail. You can gain a weath of knowledge that way not to mention having a service outlet should problems arise. The little bit extra you pay will be worth it.

Funny thing about leech curl, I constantly battle leech curl on a port tack, no problem on starboard. Haven't figured out why, I just send a guy down to adjust the leech line.

John W.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

jfdubu said:


> Funny thing about leech curl, I constantly battle leech curl on a port tack, no problem on starboard. Haven't figured out why, I just send a guy down to adjust the leech line.
> 
> John W.


It is strange that you have more leech tention on one tack. Have you checked your mast tune? Perhaps the tip is falling off to leeward more on one tack?


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## jfdubu (Jul 18, 2002)

Schock,

I pactically use a micrometer to tune the mast and I've re-tuned several times. Always the same. My guess is it has to do with the way the uv cover is sewn on some how tensions the leech more on one side whether it's in tension or compression.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Ah. A UV cover! Not the best thing for sail shape! That is likely the culprit. They are fine for cruisers that can't be bothered taking their sail down all season, but they have no place on a race boat!


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## jfdubu (Jul 18, 2002)

Well, I sort of race. But with hot and cold pressure water and a shower, 4 fairly comfortable berths and the dreaded roller furling on a 28.5' boat I'm a cruiser/wannabe racer.

Did I mention dacron sails?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

jfdubu said:


> Well, I sort of race. But with hot and cold pressure water and a shower, 4 fairly comfortable berths and the dreaded roller furling on a 28.5' boat I'm a cruiser/wannabe racer.
> 
> Did I mention dacron sails?


Fair enough! At least you're out there! You just have to live with the leech problem!

Hot and cold running water...the wife keeps talking about stuff like that...


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