# The Sailboat Business



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I thought some of you might be interested in reading this article from IBI detailing the state of the sailboat industry in N.America in 2007. Here's the link:
North American sailboat production declines by 5 per cent for 2007

Some highlights:

Biz was down 5% in units.
14,158 hulls were produced...but of that total 11,265 were 19' or under leaving only 2893 over 19' ...2284 were 20-40'...40-45' were 609 and just 250 over 46'. Isn't it amazing how really small the sailing business is?
This is the 7th straight year of production decline for sailboats. $$'s are growing a little because of the shift to more 46+ boats sold...the only category with a gain.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

I wonder how much of the decline in sales of sailboats is due to economy and how much (if any) is due to lifestyle changes, people with less free time for example? Powerboat sales are up aren't they?


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## ccam (Dec 17, 2006)

Cam,
An interesting statistic of which I'm sure your familiar with is that approx. 6000 people are retiring daily in the U.S. -So Concerning Sailboats: For instance my father truly wanted a sailboat but felt he couldn't handle the sails at his age. However, he would consider a trawler. If we were to concurrently look at the sale of Trawlers I think it will show an increase of proportion. 
Your thoughts?


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

As far as that goes, a lot of people look toward retirement with a nice goal. When (if) they reach retirement age they find they are too old to do the things they thought they would be doing. They have to resign themselves to do something less strenuous, physically and possibly fiscally. It sucks, but it might be true most of the time.

I think the stats are a lifestyle indicator. More and more people can't justify owning a boat and a home (and three cars and a pool and an rv and a vaction every year etc etc champagne lifestyle). Those that want to boat can find an acceptable used boat (look at me). Why buy new when there are many suitable used boats for sale at a more reasonable price, particularly if you are just a weekend warrior? 

Cam, where do you get used sailboat sales stats? I be interested in that, just for comparison sake.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Prices of raw materials are going up with the cost of oil. Market is relatively fixed in size. Manufacturers have been slowly increasing the size of the boats they're focussing on to increase their profit margins, but the market for larger, more expensive boats is smaller than that of smaller, more affordable boats. It really isn't too surprising that the number of boats being built is declining. 

The boats <20' include any sailing dinghy, including Optimists, Sunfish, Lasers, etc... and do not really reflect the cruising sailboat market IMHO. Yes, there are some small pocket cruisers that would fall into this range, but they're a minority of the production in this size range.


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## ccam (Dec 17, 2006)

Hey Sapper, 
Just a friend back from Honduras, where like all south america is becoming the new reality boom. Panama, Costa Rica and Southern Mexico for a long time have been a retirement meca for Texans and others. In the conversation, Condo's with Ocean front property were going for 150k with a U.S. title in this Honduran town! Hmm! I can't be specifc Sapper, but if you need I'll contact and PM U. His point to me was why are seniors paying 1E6 for overpopulated Florida when you could have a beach 2 hours from Houston for the same amount. 

CC


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

I'm 27, retirement isn't for a little while (at least not "planned" retirement ). 

I know the lifestyle can be had for much less elsewhere than you can buy in the states. My comment was more about waiting too long to do it. Why wait till your life is almost done to start living it?

Florida?!?!? I like to call Florida "The Silent Holocaust". People work their lives away just to go to Florida to die. When they get there they pay out the ass to do it. Doesn't sound like fun to me.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

ccam said:


> Hey Sapper,
> Just a friend back from Honduras, where like all south america is becoming the new reality boom. Panama, Costa Rica and Southern Mexico for a long time have been a retirement meca for Texans and others. In the conversation, Condo's with Ocean front property were going for 150k with a U.S. title in this Honduran town! Hmm! I can't be specifc Sapper, but if you need I'll contact and PM U. His point to me was why are seniors paying 1E6 for overpopulated Florida when you could have a beach 2 hours from Houston for the same amount.
> 
> CC


This will come across negative, and I do not mean it to. I am often called and hit with these foreign investment things. I know some guys that went down to Costa Rica. Beautiful pics... definitely one of the more gorgeous parts of the world.

HOWEVER...

Just remember, your investment in an American, Canadian, or European property is most likely secure (assuming no WWIII). You invest in some third world country you seriously put it at risk. There are MANY examples of this - especially out of South America and neighboring states. As a matter of fact, just go 60 miles south of Florida. THere were people with US flagged sailboats there that were confiscated... not to mention their real estate. All you need is a small revolution (which, given the political environment and unrest, is quite possible).

As such, 3rd world country's property SHOULD remain considerably less expensive as there is a real potential to lose, in entirety, that investment... and with little or no warning.

I am not discouraging foreign investment in 3rd world countries, but they always hit me with that line too (about how cheap and more beautiful it is than Florida, for example), but often neglecting to mention the economic and political realities surrounding that decision. In my opinion, you cannot compare it to FL, Europe, etc. It is like comparing penny stocks to the S&P 500. You might lose money on P&G or Coke, they might be expensive, but in the end, they will always be there.

Just my opinions.

- CD


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> I thought some of you might be interested in reading this article from IBI detailing the state of the sailboat industry in N.America in 2007. Here's the link:
> North American sailboat production declines by 5 per cent for 2007
> 
> Some highlights:
> ...


That is not much of a suprise, but unfortunate.

I think that the trend in sailboats is to make them more appealing to those who might otherwise have interest in motor boats and trawlers. I would expect the high oil prices to make them even more attractive, though they have an impact on the manufacture of sailboats too. Just makes sailboats cheaper to operate.

But lets talk economics... in order to get many of those creature comforts on a boat, it requires room and power... both of which exponentially add to the cost of a boat - especially a sailboat. And the boats have already gotten rediculously expensive. A new 40+ Catalina will run you close to 300k (or more) by the time you get her outfitted. Let's not even talk about a Hylas or other high end boat.

As such, it make you wonder if they are pricing themselves out of the market. It is not uncommon today to pay MORE for a boat than you do your house. That is a tough pill for many retiree's to swallow (and almost impossible for young families), espcially with the real and likely notion that it will depreciate AND that does not even cover the cost of owning a boat (maintenance, repair, operation, and let's not forget a slip!!!). In many instances, the cost of ownership is more than the monthly payment of the boat.

As such, it is no wonder to me the business is hurting. In S Florida, for example, they have constructed very large barns to house motor boats (even large cruisers... like Sea Rays). It is a big business, and realtively expensive, but at least it gives motor boaters an ability to house their boat and a reasonable cost. That option is typically not available for sailboats because the mast prevents it. There is no stacking and generally no putting it in a barn. It requires land to dry dock, which is VERY expensive real estate as it would be waterfront.

In essence, what you save on Diesel you will likely spend on maintenance - assuming you can get a slip at all.

I do not see a big turn around, ever. I would expect to see used sailboats maintaining or increasing their value. It is very suprising to me that they have not already and that the used market is not red hot.

Just my opinions.

- CD


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hey, aren't you supposed to be on vacation???


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

How many of the boat builders of old went out of business because they upsized their offering right out of the average boaters budget? Retiree's with 600k to buy a b/w 45 ft boat are just few and far between - focusing your production to that niche alone is economical suicide. Building fewer larger boats year after year kills these companies (Tartan, IP, Pacific Seacraft etc all).
Catalina has the right mix, Hunter has the right mix - the others failed as quality issues on the mid range boats cropped up because the focus of effort shifted to 40+ (then) flagship lines. Hunter is slipping that way with it's emphasis on it's 49. 
Some companies are sticking to their markets, they are doing well. Macgregor, need I say Performance Cruising etc.. 

Bendytoy Group, if we are in recession and the american market fails is in for a serious hit. American tourist dollars will trickle and the entire charter driven product lines will collapse. The South African catamaran builders did the same thing, upsized the product line out of the budget of buyers, downscaled quantiy and eventually quality and then sank. 
It's all a cycle, no surprizes in retrospect that most of the builders of the 80's went out of business during the recession then.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Hey, aren't you supposed to be on vacation???


Next week, not this week.

- CD


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Here's some additional boating data to put the new sales into perspective. These are total boats in use by type.








The nmma.org has a very good powerpoint slide show available for download on their home page for those ho wish to dig a bit further. Business is down in both powerboats and sailboats for the last 2 years.


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## P8dawg (Jan 10, 2007)

In my area, I think the decline of sailing is largely due to the jetski. They make them so easy to finance, you don't need a special vehicle to get them to the water, you don't need to invest much time to know how to operate them. It's the perfect recreational vehicle for the lazy American. If only we could show themwhat they are missing.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

P8dawg said:


> In my area, I think the decline of sailing is largely due to the jetski. They make them so easy to finance, you don't need a special vehicle to get them to the water, you don't need to invest much time to know how to operate them. It's the perfect recreational vehicle for the lazy American. If only we could show themwhat they are missing.


Are you implying that in your area, sailors who would otherwise buy sailboats, are buying PWCs instead?

Nothing could be further from the truth where I live.


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## P8dawg (Jan 10, 2007)

Not sailors, but people who only know they want to be near the water. The jetski makes it easy to be on the water with a minimum of effort. This belief is reinforced by the steady aging of yacht clubs across the nation. Where are the kids and young adults that used to come to the sport every year? I think they are at the Kawasaki dealer.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

P8dawg said:


> In my area, I think the decline of sailing is largely due to the jetski. They make them so easy to finance, you don't need a special vehicle to get them to the water, you don't need to invest much time to know how to operate them. It's the perfect recreational vehicle for the lazy American. If only we could show themwhat they are missing.


When I took the test for my Boating Safety Certificate, the test spent a lot of time on PWC or jetskis. At the time, I thought to much time. Maybe there is more to this then meets the eye.


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## LookingForCruiser (Feb 7, 2007)

I just got an email from Performance Cruising yesterday saying the Telstar base price has been reduced to $60k or so. No idea if they're also reducing Gemini prices.

Presumably sales are down, to cause a price reduction.

In any case, the larger trend is always going to be towards powerboats, simply because they look like floating cars, as opposed to complicated-looking sailboats with all the spooky ropes to scare people away.

Maybe increasing fuel costs will drive sailboat sales back up someday... more likely though, people just won't have boats.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

PWCs are being banned in harbors, bays and inland waterways throughout the country - similarly as ATVs which tear up and terrorize people in parks, beaches and fields. There will always be a place for them, but those areas are becoming smaller and fewer in numbers.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

There are approximately 5 times the number of jet skis (PWC's) as sailboats in use.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I'd think Telstar prices are going down because PCI is ramping up production of them. Up until now they have been more of a one off than a true poduction line of their own. 

Gemini's are at 154k base price, up from 149 last year.

At the factory, to build a Telstar a Gemini had to be held; they have increased floorspace to where that is not the case now.

The Telstar 'product' is only now really coming in to it's own.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Several years ago, a good friend of ours and his wife bought a baja... big one. He asked us to come along for a ride across the lake. We reluctantly accepted:

RRRRRMMMMMMMMMMMM..........(for about 5 minutes). You are going so fast you cannot look over the glass as it makes your eyelids waffle. You cannot hear the person standing right next to you much less the radio that is absolutely blaring. We got to the other side and shut down the engines. We did not say a single work to each other. Then, the same thing back across the lake....RRRRRRRRMMMMMMMMMMMM.......

Well, when we got back to the marina, they looked at me and Kris and said, "Now, isn't that fun!!!???" We were speechless. We forced a smile and realized that they were missing out on the TRUE boating. As such, we took them for an AWESOME sail:

We decided to go at night because there is NOTHING as beautiful as a nice night sail. The moon was full. We had an awesome breeze at 15 kts or so. We turned on the Jimmy and Marley, set the sails, and kicked back across the lake. 

Without a doubt, it was in the top 20 of one of our best sails ever. We had some awesome wine; Kris pulled out some snacks; the water just rippled in silence behind us... you know - that ripple you hear on the stern when you are only gliding along by wind.

SOOOO.... we got back to the dock and tied up. We looked across at our frinds and sair, "Now, wasn''t THAT fun!!"

Their look was not unlike ours the afternoon before. They faked a smile, we shook hands, and they never went sailing with us again.

Morale of the story: I came to realize that everybody has different tastes. Many of the sea-doo'ers can no more understand us than we can understand the Sea Ray'ers. But at the same time, if sailing does not become more fashionable with the yonger crowd (likely in racing, like Giu is doing with his son), its popularity will increasingly decrease. 

I can never see a day that sailing dissapears, but everytime I see a Sea Ray going by I wonder if somewhere, somehow, they never got a chance to go on a night sail or maybe it is just not them???

- CD


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

TrueBlue said:


> Are you implying that in your area, sailors who would otherwise buy sailboats, are buying PWCs instead?
> 
> Nothing could be further from the truth where I live.


You are right TB; where you live they are buying kayaks!


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

CD,
We have several sets of close sailor friends we often cruised with to offshore islands, like Block Island. It was a flotilla of sorts with several sailboats all meeting up at the Great Salt Pond. 

There were two wifes though, that usually chose to take the ferry and meet us there, whom we then picked up with our dinks. They claimed it was too boring sailing for 5-6 hours when the ferry only took 1.5 hours. 

That about sums up the mindset of most people today, it's all about the destination, not the journey.

max-esq,
You got me. (g)


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> CD,
> We have several sets of close sailor friends we often cruised with to offshore islands, like Block Island. It was a flotilla of sorts with several sailboats all meeting up at the Great Salt Pond.
> 
> There were two wifes though, that usually chose to take the ferry and meet us there, whom we then picked up with our dinks. They claimed it was too boring sailing for 5-6 hours when the ferry only took 1.5 hours.
> ...


I think you are right TB.

- CD


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Of course, the fact that at least one of the wives didn't like the heeling part of sailing might have had something to do with it. The heeling part isn't a factor on multihulls, and there's a good deal more of the speed for the adrenaline junkies.


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

guy's, I'd say it has more to do with the moving times. It really wasn't that long ago that everyone knew an uncle or father that had sailed tradition ships for cargo purposes. Watch the back ground shots on history channel when they're showing WWII footage. You still see alot of working sail vessel. 

They're having the same trouble with horse racing. My father and older brother grew up working with horses but we got out of the ranching business when I was 6 so I never learned to ride. At least not very well. I grew up on motorcylces. 

The funny bit is that I got into sailing on accident. I wanted a boat. At the time I had a car, a truck and three motorcycles. All of which were older and needed to be repaired regularly. So I didn't want anything with a motor. I got an old wood and canvas kayak for free. Patched it up, then discovered that rowing sucks. 

Still determined to spend time on the water, but ever leary of some thing else that would need constant repairs. I came across a 9' snark that had been in an unfurtunate accident. It now lay in two peices. A little glue and rebar and I had my first sail boat. All be it a leaky one, but it was made of styrofoam anyway, so it couldn't sink. 

And thus a sailor was born.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

This thread is drifting to a topic that's been discussed often here. Aside from today's get-there-quick attitude, youth sailing education programs have been gradually diminishing in coastal communities for decades. The reason is a lack of interest with young parents. 

Sailing is thriving in areas like Annapolis and Newport, where I grew up, due to long-standing strong sailing traditions. But these areas seems to be the last hold-outs. The chain of sailing generations seems to be producing more and more weak links.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

It's the "I want it now" generation. Life at 6knts is too slow for Mr. and Mrs. Instant Gratification.
I know because my Gemini's name is Patience Two, and my Crownline 250cr express cruiser is Impatience. 

Telling the kids it's gonna take 3 hours to get to X is just too much for them to bear without a Wii, Ninentdo and a couple DVD's to tide them over. 

Understanding that the journey is the experience is just too much to bear in the world of 10 second sound bites and Fios internet connections.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

danjarch said:


> guy's, I'd say it has more to do with the moving times. It really wasn't that long ago that everyone knew an uncle or father that had sailed tradition ships for cargo purposes. Watch the back ground shots on history channel when they're showing WWII footage. You still see alot of working sail vessel.
> 
> They're having the same trouble with horse racing. My father and older brother grew up working with horses but we got out of the ranching business when I was 6 so I never learned to ride. At least not very well. I grew up on motorcylces.
> 
> ...


Are you saying you are from Texas and do not know how to ride a horse??? I would not put that on the open net... they WILL find you....

(Get a rope, Boys)

HEHEEHE

Nah, out in East Texas, I think everyone has a horse and I bet 3/4 of my town ride in the rodeo (yours truly does not!!!). Get out of the crappin' city. Out in the country the people are a lot more laid back. True story: when my wife had her accident, we had people from our town stopping by that we did not even know! They were trying to bring dinner, breakfast, take the kids, anything they could do. It almost got the point of being annoying... but it wasn't.

Here in the city, they could about care less. We do not even know our neighbors.

That is the one thing I love about sailing, though the same can be said about the larger motor yachts too: it is a sense of community. It is a place where multi millionaires and the regular old common man get together and know everyone. No kidding, I have more numbers in my cell phone of the people around my marina than I do at my house.

How does this relate to the original topic? Well, that is the glue that holds us together. Sailing and cruising is very addicitive when you get into it and the people you meet will become almost like family. As I have said before, our best friends in the world lived aboard behind us in Florida...


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I'm going to bet that the vast majority of those boats under 19' are way under 19'. Sunfish.

It's estimated that the luxury tax of 1990 put 7000 people in the yacht business out of work. I would expect to see a continued dearth of boats in the 18-27 foot range being built, with the remainder being of the Sunfish ilk and the larger more profitable boats. In such a shaky business as sailboat production I'd guess that there's market on the low end and market on the high end, but little in the middle. Kind of like cars.

Here's an interesting, if dated, article on the luxury tax which finally expired in 2003. Of course those jobs didn't exactly come roaring back.
Luxury tax. (Federal Taxation)


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## P8dawg (Jan 10, 2007)

It doesn't help matters any that Hobie cat has made fleetrules that exclude any other catamarans from racing in thier regattas. Where there used to be new sailors coming into the sport on Prindles, Nacras and other beach cats, now there are just slow,impact plastic psuedo cats. They are nice novice boats, but Hobie has effectively killed performance multihull sailing on anything smaller than an F-boat. Good thing they are making so much on thier kayaks.


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## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> This will come across negative, and I do not mean it to. I am often called and hit with these foreign investment things. I know some guys that went down to Costa Rica. Beautiful pics... definitely one of the more gorgeous parts of the world.
> 
> HOWEVER...
> 
> ...


This is off topic but I am saying it anyway.
CD
The USA is not without it's own deterrants to foreign ownership. I had a fleeting interest a while back and discovered far too many deterrants that discouraged any further research into investing in USA property. One that stands out as most memorable is that a foreigner is not permitted to do their own home repairs, they are required by law to hire an American citizen to do it for them, no matter how skilled/capable the foreigner is. To do it themselves is akin to robbing a bank. There are numerous other tax/capital gains laws to make it unprofitable to invest also. Many Canadian Snowbirds simply invest in time share or strata titles to get around the deterrants and write off the cost as a lifestyle change with no profit to be had. Americans can come here and do as they please we encourage foreign investment here in Canada.
I moor in USA but I tow my boat home to work on it just in case.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I think that CD is prejudiced by his impressions of Haiti, the Catalina destination of choice, otherwise known as the trailer park of the Caribbean. He overlooks such historically stable places like Costa Rica where there is little risk. (g)


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*I worked for a Canadian*

Lawyer building a vacation home here in Washington when I was 19...He told me American citizens could not own property in Canada...Has this changed?

And to stay on topic...The Fuel prices is what finally convinced my wife to try a Sail boat... and I believe used boat prices will go up...especially with a week dollar attracting foreign money..at least for medium to large used boats..

Cam's hoping I'm right any way....FWIW Cam should be a good time to buy a Land Yacht too.. I would not want to be in that business right now either..



CaptKermie said:


> This is off topic but I am saying it anyway.
> CD
> The USA is not without it's own deterrants to foreign ownership. I had a fleeting interest a while back and discovered far too many deterrants that discouraged any further research into investing in USA property. One that stands out as most memorable is that a foreigner is not permitted to do their own home repairs, they are required by law to hire an American citizen to do it for them, no matter how skilled/capable the foreigner is. To do it themselves is akin to robbing a bank. There are numerous other tax/capital gains laws to make it unprofitable to invest also. Many Canadian Snowbirds simply invest in time share or strata titles to get around the deterrants and write off the cost as a lifestyle change with no profit to be had. Americans can come here and do as they please we encourage foreign investment here in Canada.
> I moor in USA but I tow my boat home to work on it just in case.


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## Jotun (May 4, 2006)

I'm 32 and have many friends who have powerboats. I have zero friends my age--even plus or minus a decade--that have a sailboat.


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

Jotun said:


> I'm 32 and have many friends who have powerboats. I have zero friends my age--even plus or minus a decade--that have a sailboat.


You need to get new friends!!!!!


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

Plus, sailboats live longer than powerboats. So, there is a supply of decent quality relatively cheap sailboats in sizes of underr 35'. And sailboaters don't have to always have "the latest model". So, there is a lot less demand for new ones to be constantly produced, except to fill the need for those upgrading.

Personally, I'd never buy a new sailboat - you get so much more in a used market for a lot less money.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Of course, it's a bit harder to sit with one arm around the eye candy, the other, holding a beer, while you're staring down her clevage, and going 40 MPH, in a sailboat.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Don't forget the prerequisite heavy gold chains yanking out his neck and back hairs.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

PBzeer said:


> Of course, it's a bit harder to sit with one arm around the eye candy, the other, holding a beer, while you're staring down her clevage, and going 40 MPH, in a sailboat.


At least we now know why PBzeer has a sailboat. (g)


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Too old for candy, got a good cup holder, half blind, and if I go too fast it blows my hat off.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Cup holders are good and your never to old for candy. As far as the hat look here.

Kiwi Marine Products: Aqualisers, Grippa Hat Clips, Hull Super Scrub & More!


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## ysabelsdad (Mar 17, 2007)

I wonder how the racing boat market is doing relative to the cruising boat market. I see quite a few relatively new J boats and boats like them around the marina. 

I also wonder how the new Alerion Express boats are selling. The notion of a high quality day sailor/ weekender appeals quite a bit to me and nobody else is selling anything similar (except Morris but they are way outside my price range).


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## Jotun (May 4, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> Don't forget the prerequisite heavy gold chains yanking out his neck and back hairs.


So true.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*I think you have to look at it regionally*

Sailing in the Toronto area is certainly in decline and I think a lot of the reason is demographic. In the 1950s and 60s we got a lot of immigrants from places like Britain, Germany and Holland - all with strong sailing traditions. Not surprisingly these folks became the backbone of sailing (yacht clubs, racing, boat building). 
Now our immigrants are primarily from parts of the world where there is no tradition of sailing for pleasure -- eg there are 1.1 million Chinese and Indians in the metro area now. Many of these people are now well-established and have money to spend and are looking for leisure opportunities. For whatever reason sailing is not making inroads into these groups. Golf certainly is, even fishing is. I have tried to get our yacht club to advertise our learn to sail programs in ethnic newspapers but have not had success.

I would imagine that similar things are happening in other large population areas that are getting many immigrants without sailing traditions


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

_"Of course, it's a bit harder to sit with one arm around the eye candy, the other, holding a beer, while you're staring down her clevage, and going 40 MPH, in a sailboat."_
That depends on what meds she's taking... 
just tell her that the knotmeter decimal point is rounding "up"

The cuban grew up on go-fast south florida boats. cigs, fountains, loud, fast, firebreathing beasts that go from miami to key west in no time flat.

The Freedome 33 was her very first sailboat "ride".
She wasn't sure if this was going to be time wasted with another nut-job or just what else to expect.

After exiting the marina and raising the sails, her first comment was...
"this doesn't smell like fish at all"
second...
"wow, this is so quiet"

Later, we moved over to the catalina 27.

While it was a lot smaller, she actually enjoyed it more. I guess size does matter.

Now that I'm floatless, she's taken to looking in odd-duck places for boat stuff.

She's beginning to float questions concerning dockages...


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

As long as you don't cross to the darkside CP


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## GrittySchu (Mar 8, 2007)

Several observations on the original topic:

I wonder how the weaker dollar will affect the used boat market. I've seen it on the forums a few times, people asking about buying boats in florida or the carribean and having them shipped back to Australia or Europe. Everybody gasped and baulked at the price of shipping, but when you're getting a 30% discount on a $200k boat the $30k shipping tag along with the import tax doesn't sound so bad.
I would think this same effect would translate to the new boat market as well (at least for blue water cruisers). Kind of like how the S. African builders took off when the exchange rate was in their favor, but have since slowed considerably.

Although I could be way off, I'm no economics expert.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

GrittySchu said:


> Several observations on the original topic:
> 
> I wonder how the weaker dollar will affect the used boat market. I've seen it on the forums a few times, people asking about buying boats in florida or the carribean and having them shipped back to Australia or Europe. Everybody gasped and baulked at the price of shipping, but when you're getting a 30% discount on a $200k boat the $30k shipping tag along with the import tax doesn't sound so bad.
> I would think this same effect would translate to the new boat market as well (at least for blue water cruisers). Kind of like how the S. African builders took off when the exchange rate was in their favor, but have since slowed considerably.
> ...


Between the rapidly falling dollar, the huge price tag of new boats, and the high price of oil, it is amazing to me that the US used sailboat market is not exploding. I did get a flyer from Cedar Mills (the guys that make Valiant) the other day wanting to list my boat (they mailed it to everyone) because they said their used inventory is drying up. Could be a marketing scheme (probably is), but I will say that they do not have a huge inventory right now of used boats.

Interesting, still.

- CD


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

I'd like to chime in here. 

I am 39, have been sailing for 15 years and have never owned a boat. I am married. I join community sailing clubs and I charter alot. I am interested in purchasing a sailboat. The problem for me is cost. I make a fairly good middle-class income. The problem is when you need to purchase a home, save for retirement, and save for college, there really isn't much left over. 

I have enough time on my hands to sail. It truly is the cost---not just the cost of the boat; O&M costs can be equal to or greater than a boat loan.

Another aspect that is affecting the market is the fact that people under 40 do not have as much interest in sailing as do people over 40. Boat dealers have been telling me that there just are not many people under 40 going into sailing. 

IMHO--I think there is a solution to the problem of decreased participation in sailing---and Beneteau has come up with it (this is not a plug for Benneteau as I do not like their boats and would never own one.) Benneteau has introduce a fractional ownership program--NOT a fractional sailing program.

The difference is a fractional owner pays 1/4 of the boat cost and 1/4 of the maintenance costs and gets to use the boat for 1/4 of a month.

All maintenance is handled by a service that maintains and keep the yacht is good condition. I looked into this program. For a new Benneteau 423, one pays around $67,000 for the share and an estimated $4000/year maintenance cost. This includes docking, winter storage, insurance, the whole-kit-and kaboodle. I think this option is better than the fractional sailing programs because you are guaranteed at least one full weekend a month. 

I wish other yacht companies would do it as well. If Tartan or Jeanneau decided to provide this type of service I would probably purchase a 1/4 share.

--Just my two cents.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Yamsailor said:


> I'd like to chime in here.
> 
> I am 39, have been sailing for 15 years and have never owned a boat. I am married. I join community sailing clubs and I charter alot. I am interested in purchasing a sailboat. The problem for me is cost. I make a fairly good middle-class income. The problem is when you need to purchase a home, save for retirement, and save for college, there really isn't much left over.
> 
> ...


You would drop 67,000 cash, plus another 4k/year, and only get to use your boat 25% of the time? No way... just buy a less expensive boat. For examply, get a Catalina 36 that is a couple of years old for about 100k. Put down $20,000 and have about a $600/ish month payment and use it whenever you want.

My concern (and I openly admit I have never done it) on a fractional ownership program of any type is that you never know what type of care the other people will take of your boat. I guess I just don't like the idea of anyone else sleeping in my bed, scratching my paint, sitting on my crapper, etc. And what about when you want to get rid of it? Do you have to ask permission and get approval from the other 3/4 of the people? It seems to me that it would be harder to get rid of 25% of a boat than 100% of it. But I admit, I am not educated on these programs.

I am 37 and have owned four sailboats. I don't make millions, it was just really important to me and Kris and we sacrificed and saved a long time for it.

These are just my opinions, and only opinions though. I am curious what drives you to a fractional ownership program.

- CD


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

I don't "get" time-share or leasing a car either..... Though I understand the temptation of being able to have the "flash without the cash"


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

It is important to note on those timeshare situations. That 67K a share for 1/4 ownership is on a NEW boat. They retire them after 5 years because the actual value of the vessel is depreciated quite significantly. They then roll in a new one - owner(s) get the the option of them buying it outright but not at the depreciated price...most of that money spent is for moorage and paying people to maintain the boat. Kinda of like leasing a car...

One needs to read the fine fine print on those agreements as they are modeled after real estate's timeshare and not the automobile leasing program. 

I am with CD on - it makes more sense to own outright..because in the timeshare situation its the company that controls when and how it gets sold not the "owners" which are not really owner's but just secondaries....


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

AjariBonten said:


> I don't "get" time-share or leasing a car either..... Though I understand the temptation of being able to have the "flash without the cash"


Yeah, but when you lease a car, you are the only one who drives it AND you can buy it in the end (whehter you should or not is a different story).

But it would seem to me that EVERYONE has a different idea of how to decorate their boats, how to care for their boats, etc. Get one owner that is a slob and one that is anal, and you could have a clasic case of murder on your hands.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Cruising Dad,

I do not want nor can I afford to drop $100,000 on a boat for 15 years. The fractional ownership program has an electronic scheduler similar to Sailtime, Windpath, and Pinnacle Yachts. I will not be able to use the boat every weekend as I teach sailing two weekends a months. You do not ask permission to use the boat, the scheduler soft-ware takes care of it. YOu commit to a three year minimum and you sell the share to whom ever you want however since the boat is set up as an S-Corporation, I believe you have sell the share in accordance with the corporate rules--meaning you do not sell aboat to someone who does not know how to sail.

Most people don't have $100,000 to drop on a boat. I know I don't. This makes it cost-effective. Lets face it--most people do not use their boats every single weekend.

Fairwinds.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Artbyjody,

This is NOT a fractional sailing arrangment. It is a fractional OWNERSHIP arrangement. The boat is new but it is not sold after 5 years. There are only four shares to the boat. It is set up as a S-corporation. Each partner finances their 1/4 share however they see fit to do so. Is is less like fractional sailing arrangement and more like a fractional OWNERSHIP arrangement where people own a share in a jet.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

For 67,000 and 4k/year... how many times could you go and charter a boat in the islands? If you can only use the boat for one weekend a year (assuming the above example), that is twelve weekends a year (assuming they are all good weather and nice sailing and no cold or pull-out , etc). You could EASILY charter a tub in the islands or med for that and have many thousnds left over. But the truth is that of you use one of those programs up north and only get to have her out for 6 months out of the year, you are paying $67,000 up front, plus $4,000/6 weekends. That equals $666.67/weekend. 

For that you could OWN a C36 (I am just using that as an example) outright and not put out nearly the $67,000. And you could sail her all week, every weekend, etc.

Again, just my opinions. I realize for those that have a busy life, it may make more sense.

- CD


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Yamsailor said:


> Cruising Dad,
> 
> I do not want nor can I afford to drop $100,000 on a boat for 15 years. The fractional ownership program has an electronic scheduler similar to Sailtime, Windpath, and Pinnacle Yachts. I will not be able to use the boat every weekend as I teach sailing two weekends a months. You do not ask permission to use the boat, the scheduler soft-ware takes care of it. YOu commit to a three year minimum and you sell the share to whom ever you want however since the boat is set up as an S-Corporation, I believe you have sell the share in accordance with the corporate rules--meaning you do not sell aboat to someone who does not know how to sail.
> 
> ...


Yamsailor,

I am not arguiing with you, honest. I am trying to understand. So a friendly debate... ok? No offense to either?

That being said, you are dropping $67,000 into a boat and $4000 a year. If you take out a loan for a $100,000 boat, you would have to put down a MAXIMUM $20,000 (with many programs wanting even less) and you would pay somewhere in the 600's/month. Yes, you do have some maintenance and slip costs associated with this, but you also have the FULL tax write off of that monthly payment - which means something too.

Do you still get a tax writeoff for the monthly payment on the fractional ownership program? I assume that is only the percentage of ownership? Or, does that all go through the corp?

It just seems a lot less expensive and has considerably more benefits to buy it outright. Where am I wrong?

- CD


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Cruising Dad,

I say again. YOu get 1/4 of eacha nd every month to use the boat. That means you get at least 7 days/month with two of those days on a weekend.

I am up north--I sail on the Chesapeake--the boats ru in the water 4/15 and out of the water 11/15. so to get to use the boat for 7.5 weeks a year in total. I think it makes sense. Additionally, the boat come news with every available option--again I am not plugging for Benneteau as I said earlier, i would never own one--i just don't like them. However, the concept works very well. Fractional car use here in the northeast is on the rise as well.

Just look at philly car share and zipcar.

It is an answer to curing the decreased participation in sailing.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

yes--you still get a tax write-off on the montly payment.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Some links:

Questions to ask with fractional ownership

Very informative site ...tons of info...it is based around UK - but info is relative here as well.


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## Brezzin (Dec 4, 2006)

Interesting idea this boat ownership program. But in the end I'm with CD. 

I just don't play well with others. And what happens if one of those other owners has a mishap that costs you your week. Like say, running the engine w/o opening the seacock. you lose your time, and does the insurance cover the new motor? How about something as minor as a winch handle being lost overboard and the last user does not own up to it. Do you buy the replacement or what....Just food for thought.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Brezzin,

Good questions. As to the motor needing a replacement--I don't know--I'd have to ask on that one. Winch handles and other things are replaced by the management company.


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## Brezzin (Dec 4, 2006)

All in all if it gets more people on the water it's a good thing. (Not that I need the already crowded anchorages to be more crowded) 

Actually, now that I think about it, It's a bad thing, very Bad, bad, bad.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Brezzin,

I hear you. Most of the people I know under 40 think it is quite unusual that I sail--they think I am rich or wealthy. HA HA HA HA HA HA.

I truly believe that people under 40 have different economic pressures than others did 20+ years ago. The industry needs to make it affordable for the masses. If the industry doesn't change it will again become a sport only for the rich and wealthy. I hope that doesn't happen.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Send me $67,000 and $4000 per year and you can use my Cal 21' every day you wish. Where would you like it delivered and what color would you like it to be painted? (g)


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

LOL---will you throw in an ice chest and some wine?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Red or white?


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

and don't forget the cheese.


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## madman2525 (Mar 24, 2008)

I'll ad my european standpoint to this if I may 

sailing is currently becoming very big in Germany, schools are packed. I believe that the gas prices in Europe (about double as in the states) contribute to a preferenece to sailing over powerboats. Supported by a general awreness for energy consumption and less lakes than in the US to ride a powerboat (let alone ride it fast). 

Powerboating is fun, but as it costs abour 250€/day to rent a decent boat to go waterskiing and almost the same for gas, you are looking at around $700-800 for a day, that takes some fun out of it. (price for lake garda in Italy). 

Sailing is IMHO more adequate in a time with rising energy prices. Maybe that will change the trend with powerboats selling beter than sailboats...


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## buckeyesailor (Mar 9, 2008)

$7-800 a DAY?.....

Let's see........buy a ski boat.....take it to Italy....rent it out.......and liveaboard a sailboat on the cheap......I think I can pull this off......


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## madman2525 (Mar 24, 2008)

I don't know how expensive it is to leave a boat in the water at lake garda...it's sort munich's extended weekend getaway... so I would make sure you do the full cost calculation  

checkout the web, it's a really beautiful spot...and expensive

but be sure to give me a discount for the idea


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

I think the economy in Germany is doing a hell of alot better than the US right now. Just look at the Dollar-Euro exchange rate.

Do most people own boats in Germany? Do they Charter? Do they do fractional ownership?


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## madman2525 (Mar 24, 2008)

Yamsailor said:


> I think the economy in Germany is doing a hell of alot better than the US right now. Just look at the Dollar-Euro exchange rate.
> 
> that's one aspect maybe, but we bought 20% of your subprime loans  so we'l just give you some money back you gave us for our BMWs and Mercedes => you ca't make money from money... especially not germans....
> 
> Do most people own boats in Germany? Do they Charter? Do they do fractional ownership?


depends on where you live, we only have a small coast line, north and east sea, there many people have boats. I live in munich, there are some lakes around, but far less berths than demand, so you end up paying around 2000€/year for a place on the pantoon, thats $3000...for a 25 foot boat. If you get one, that is. Motorboating is very restricted for enviromental and noise reasons, there are only very few licenses available....small country. Checl it out on google earth 

So many people charter for a week or two in the summer, the coast of croatia is beautiful to sail and very popular and only a 5-6 hour drive.

Boating wise I'd rather live in the states  Job wise for my profession munich is fine


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Croatia is gorgeous. I took a bareboat out of Trogir for a week---absolutely gorgeous.


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