# Best metal sailboat information



## shank32095 (Mar 22, 2014)

Recently traded real estate that was very difficult to sell in Costa Rica for an immaculate 57' Steel Ketch. The vessel is in perfect shape without even one square millimeter of rust to be found. After listening to all the entertaining back and forth on Pros and Cons of Steel sailboats which ended after it's 10th season I would like some FACTUAL information on metal boats. I need to find out if my vessel needs to stay or go. The best source I have found, granted it is from one of the foremost metal sailboat builders, is the site below.

Metal Boats For Blue Water - Kasten Marine Design, Inc.


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## Mr. Bubs (Aug 21, 2013)

I hear Brent Swain is a wealth of information.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

They are tough and they rust.

What else do you need to know?


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## shank32095 (Mar 22, 2014)

Mr. Bubs said:


> I hear Brent Swain is a wealth of information.


Thanks, but I want reliable information from a professional who has valid information. I have heard enough BS rants on his use of coal tar epoxy and recycled materials. Kasten Marine seems like the best source I have located. Problem with Brent is he is basically a low budget DIY'er with information geared towards promoting his program of extremely cheap,
poorly designed boats that are really unattractive. He also has a habit of not answering questions that are adverse to his program or contradict what he has previously stated as fact.


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## shank32095 (Mar 22, 2014)

TQA said:


> They are tough and they rust.
> 
> What else do you need to know?


Certainly a wealth of knowledge you bring to the table there Captain.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

I am by no means a metal boat expert, but here's a bit of info about metal sailboats that was shared with me by Ted Brewer: The Metal Yacht - Aluminum & Steel Sailboat Perspectives


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

the problem shank is you went on that steel boat thread...which is ww3 and a bit more and absiluetly useless for anyone wanting information.

the fact that people still go there and get sucked into a vortex of stupidity and bashing baffles me, and makes me think people have even more time on their hands than me! 

the other issue I feel is you are now slightly dissapointed in any advice you have received so far...

there are many of us who have been on steel boats, done maintenance on them, cruised on them, and work on them that would happily offer little tips here and there

I have seen some MAJOR work done replating a cruising steel french boat for example in panama that would absolutely destroy most cruisers dreams and hopes in a second

yet there was a dutch/german steel guy there that made the replating and major structural repair look so easy I got the steel bug too.

there is a wealth of information out there

just remember steel boats are worked on all around the globe and are for the most part easier to maintain than even glass boats...simple work just repetitive, and on schedule

never let a steel boat go too long as it WILL get beyond a point of proper repair

good luck!

beautiful boat btw


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## shank32095 (Mar 22, 2014)

christian.hess 

Another question for you or anyone else knowledgable on the subject. Say I wanted to enjoy the 57' Steel Ketch I recently got, sailing the South China Sea, Indonesia, OZ etc. for a couple years and then sell it. What location do you think might be the best market wise to sell an upper end Steel vessel?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

anywhere in the world???????????????????????????????????

id say the med first
panama lately has had a price spike regarding boats, it used to be you could get deals there a lot more than now.
thailand or neearby areas
carribean
new zealand maybe?

Im SURE there are better places, and poeple with up to date info on where is best to sell

for example in my opinion selling a high end steel boat in the states would be a long sell...unless you got that one perfect person who wants it just so!

and then basically all your online yachtworld.com type places that basically at that price range people come to you as do the brokers

btw my dad since passed used to be a yacht broker in puerto banus, marbella, spain.

back in the 80s that was THE place to buy and sell(for high end yachts)...some secrets he passed on, come to think about it...being a yacht broker might be something of a career I would love to get into later in life.

good luck


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Shank:
My guess would be Northern Europe where there is more of a tradition of quality built steel boats and more good examples of the type. They are not oddities in Europe.


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## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

shank32095 said:


> christian.hess
> 
> Another question for you or anyone else knowledgable on the subject. Say I wanted to enjoy the 57' Steel Ketch I recently got, sailing the South China Sea, Indonesia, OZ etc. for a couple years and then sell it. What location do you think might be the best market wise to sell an upper end Steel vessel?


The question is to Christian but as a previous steel boat owner (Brewer design) I'll state that a steel boat to sell (easily), needs in this order:
1) be in good to excellent shape
2) built by a reputable builder
3) from a reputable designer

Miss one and its a hard sell anywhere. I agree with Bob - in northern Europe they are pretty common, but you will have to compete with the immaculate Dutch and German steel boats, but at 57' it will be a niche market anyway.
Take care of the boat as you cruise and good luck.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

SVTatia said:


> The question is to Christian but as a previous steel boat owner (Brewer design) I'll state that a steel boat to sell (easily), needs in this order:
> 1) be in good to excellent shape
> 2) built by a reputable builder
> 3) from a reputable designer
> ...


bingo, that and whatever taxes and cut youll take from selling there...

however that would be the place to sell

dutch and germans are to steel, what italians are to pasta


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

bobperry said:


> Shank:
> My guess would be Northern Europe where there is more of a tradition of quality built steel boats and more good examples of the type. They are not oddities in Europe.


Warning !!
To sell a boat (used or new) in the EU the boat has to be CE marked in accordance with the "recreational boat directive" aka RCD Safety and environment: EU harmonised requirements for recreational craft - Maritime industries - Enterprise and Industry

If you don't have the paperwork for this i can be a costly process.
You would basically need to hire a naval architect or classification society to get this done.


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## ur_other_port (Dec 15, 2011)

Needle gun, wire wheel, sand, chemprime, steel seal, primer, paint. Repeat every year or as needed. 
I work on a steel boat and this is just how it is


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Damn port:
You make it sound so romantic.

A few times a year I'd fill a bucket with sudsy foam, grab a brush and wail away at my grp decks. I'd give my toes a good once over at the same time. Can't have any "Hong Kong foot" can we?

I kind of enjoyed it. No, I know I did enjoy it. Probably a toe thing.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

bobperry said:


> ...
> 
> I kind of enjoyed it. No, I know I did enjoy it. Probably a toe thing.


Um.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Talk to Wynn, my Vietnamese pedicurist. I'm not complicated and she is well compensated.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

This guy kind of rocks if you ask me:

Tanton Yachts


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

DRFerron said:


> Yum.


Fixed it for you DRF.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

What about finding the closest steel boat rally. They happen. When I was buying a grp boat in Bellingham I stumbled into one. They could be a wealth of information and you might even meet the steel boat equivalent of Bob strutting around the docks in a chain mail kilt. 

Or they might be like an AA meeting.... " hi my name is Med and I own a metal boat...." 

Seriously though. See if there is a steel boat rally near you.

Medsailor


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## snippys_dad (Aug 2, 2014)

Steels cheap , easy to cut out and re weld ,fast non brain surgery , you can make it as hard or as simple as you like .when you remove and replace a portion it is new not a repair end of .


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Do a search under origamiboats ( yahoo groups) for a wealth of information on steel boats and the most modern methods of building them, from people who actually get their hands dirty building and cruising full time in them ( Not armchair experts who have zero experience in them, yet charge $150 an hour for advice on something they have no hands on experience with.)
In my book I have included everything I could think of, from nearly 40 years of designing, building and cruising full time in a steel boat. It also includes a lot of info useful to anyone cruising in any kind of boat, such as how to build a lot of your own gear , or a fraction the cost of buying it, and far superior to commercially made equivalents.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

We have two steel boats and I'm getting waaaay too much experience in their maintence. None-the-less I would not change. You only need one experience when you realize a glass boat would not have survived to sell you.

That said here are some resources..
You've already got Ted brewers thoughts listed
Brent is a good source of info, get his book. You don't have to accept everything, but he gives you a good idea of what is possible.
Then there is Scott Fratchers book... Metal boat maintenance-A do it yourself guide by Scott Fratcher (eBook) - Lulu
Then you can join the Metal Boat Society, they are the only metal boat group I know of in the US, out of Bellingham, Wa.

I recently ran into a guy with a custom built aluminum hull. He had a smaller one he tried to sell In Au and couldn't because of the swing keel. He shipped it to Denmark to get a good price.

I second the advice above about know designer and professional builder being key to selling at price.

Good luck with your boat. Can you share what you got and where built?


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

shank32095 said:


> Thanks, but I want reliable information from a professional who has valid information. I have heard enough BS rants on his use of coal tar epoxy and recycled materials. Kasten Marine seems like the best source I have located. Problem with Brent is he is basically a low budget DIY'er with information geared towards promoting his program of extremely cheap,
> poorly designed boats that are really unattractive. He also has a habit of not answering questions that are adverse to his program or contradict what he has previously stated as fact.


So what exactly is wrong with recycled stainless steel and coal tar epoxy shank? Brent has been sailing around the south paciifc and BC for 40 years or so on a shoe string budget. He has helped myslef and many other people that I know in real life get into awesome boats that normally would be well beyond their means. A few years before building my boat I read through Thomas Colvins steel boat building book and half way through I decided that attempting such a complicated project of welding up all these perfectly aligned frames, plating it and welding all the steel plate together would end up being a complete abortion and beyond my skill level and wallet, I put the book down and gave up the hope that I would some day have a boat that I could smash into a reef with and still sail away, and so submitted to the all to common advice in forums such as this and advice from these so called "experts" that things can only be done in one way - and it's expensive and hard, better off to hire a "professional". 
Then I ran across Brent's designs and things didn't seem all too complicated, I was in the water under two years later and sailing after that summer, not having sailed really before, not having welded or fabricated much before other than a couple roughly built gates on the farm. Now it's been six years living aboard full time, for free I've been tied to a dock for a grand total of 4 months, three of which were when I was building the interior, one was for free and in the US where they don't like you anchoring for more than 30 days.
As far as poorly designed, what are you basing this on? My 36' will sail on everytack, upwind proformance is not that of a fancy race boat, and in the choppy upwind work that we get around BC you get about 3-4 knots at 45 degrees, 10-15 degrees off the wind and your up to 6-7 knots, that has always seemed to me to be about as much as one could expect for a big heavy boat. Downwind proformance is awesome the twin keels track downwind wonderfully, the windvane that cost about 100 bucks to build has steered the boat since I launched it, even downwind well. There's been a lot of messing about with the rig since I've launched to get the rig functioning smoothly - I don't think this is specific to Brent's designs and I think I'm happy with it now. I've bounced off several rocks with no major damage, collisions that would of totaled a boat built of any other material than metal. This summer was the first time I had to do any matainence on the hulll and deck it took two days of gringing out all the chips and dings of the last 6 years and throwing several coats of coal tar and some new bottom paint. I did it all on the beach and it cost me nothing other than the paint, grinder and gas for the genny.
So what part of Brent's poor man DIY philosophy is so upseting for you, I too think that people should live on significantly less than most do, and I think that people should start doing things for themselves rather than relying on this crazy global ecomonic system that makes a habit of expoiting people and the enviroment so a select few, mostly white people can live like kings having life sered to them a silver platter. I think that this is going to be a hard truth that people are going to have to deal with at some point, people will have to make do with less at some point, we can't continue down this wasteful, opulant road forever and I don't think jumping down the throat of anyone who says that things can be done differently is an appropriate or helpful thing to do on these forums. 
How much did you're fancy 57' cost you to build, how many people did you get to build it, how long do you think it would take to build it all yourself? How has it performed when you've smashed into a rock? How much of matenaince buget and workload does your boat have?

If you think his boats are unatractive I don't know why they look like most boats of similar shape and size with a pilot house. I still mistake other boats for BS' till I get close and see that its a fiberglass boat. I personally think your boat looks like some thing they ready to launch into space, not really my bag. 
Have you ever actually seen a Brent swain boat in real life? Your profile says you're in south america


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I still mistake other boats for BS' till I get close and see that its a fiberglass boat.""
Really? You mean like from about three miles away?


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

My boats, and their design success, have as good a reputation as any cruising boat out there, among those who sail them, far better than most. Their only critics are guys who know nothing about them, or steel, or their reputation on the BC coast, and elsewhere , and plastic boat pushers like blowhard, Bob Perry, who contribute absolutely nothing to resolving the biggest problems most wannabe cruisers face, time and money.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

theboilerflue said:


> A few years before building my boat I read through Thomas Colvins steel boat building book and half way through I decided that attempting such a complicated project of welding up all these perfectly aligned frames, plating it and welding all the steel plate together would end up being *a complete abortion* and beyond my skill level and wallet, I put the book down and gave up the hope that I would some day have *a boat that I could smash into a reef with and still sail away*, and so submitted to the all to common advice in forums such as this and advice from these *so called "experts" that things can only be done in one way - and it's expensive and hard, better off to hire a "professional". *


Wow. You sure have the BS Party Line down pat. I'll give you that.

And by the way...



theboilerflue said:


> ...so a select few, mostly white people can live like kings having life sered to them a silver platter.


...I'm "mostly white" and take umbrage at your tone, sir.

How about a pic of your boat?


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

bobperry said:


> I still mistake other boats for BS' till I get close and see that its a fiberglass boat.""
> Really? You mean like from about three miles away?


Yeah like far enough away that you can't tell that all the fittings are bolted on and the hull and deck have that rounded fiberglassy look. Really any pilot house with the aft sloping front, unless the boat has drastically differnet lines it's hard to tell. Brent's designes are pretty moderate ones as far as hull shape goes, there's really nothing too out there about them. 
My point being that it's not like the look of Brent's designes are really very far from most boats of similar size with a pilothouse and on a forum that is supposed to be providing useful information making a purly subjective statment like that without embelishing on it is really just stiring the pot for no good reason. I hate trying to find information on forums like this cause you have to wade through all this useless **** that isn't backed up with anything.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

smackdaddy said:


> Wow. You sure have the BS Party Line down pat. I'll give you that.
> 
> How about a pic of your boat?


What are you saying? That want to have a nice sailboat and enjoy it without having to work myself to death and contribute to this awful wasteful society to get it?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

theboilerflue said:


> What are you saying? That want to have a nice sailboat and enjoy it without having to work myself to death and contribute to this awful wasteful society to get it?





theboilerflue said:


> How much did you're fancy 57' cost you to build, how many people did you get to build it, how long do you think it would take to build it all yourself?


Ahm, do you know how steel is born?





















> Hebei, which surrounds Beijing in the country's north, was home to seven of China's 10 most polluted cities last year. Researchers blame its steel, coal and cement plants for some of the hazardous smog that increasingly envelops the capital.














> Hebei, which accounts for around a quarter of the country's steel output, has been at the centre of Beijing's 'war on pollution'; a campaign which has intensified since the beginning of this year. This has seen heavy industry output curtailed, either directly through government intervention, or indirectly, through fines and levies.


Why would you want to support that wonton "raping of the planet"? Just so you can hit rocks?

I mean, I don't mind steel boats. But let's keep the debate rational.

Nice looking boat. Is that a 40?


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

smackdaddy said:


> Ahm, do you know how steel is born?
> 
> Why would you want to support that wonton "raping of the planet"? Just so you can hit rocks?
> 
> ...


Yeah I'm aware that steel is hard on the enviroment, the hull is a one time thing however, the paint not so much. And compare steel smelting to, oil extration and refinment into plastic. I live on about 10-12 grand a year so if you add up all my consumption that I do with that living on the boat it's pretty minimal. I choose a steel boat because I know that I'm hard on things and make a lot of stupid mistakes and need something that is very ah... forgiving, so steel makes a lot of sense.
If I were to live in an ideal world I'd probably have a small boat that I can pull up a beach, that I can row and sail off the wind, made from local unpainted cedar, foraging for food off the land as people lived before the white man came and destroyed the enviroment in hundred something years. 
And thanks it's a 36'.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

The environmental impact of the building of my boat was a one shot deal ,30 years ago. Since then, my environmental foot print has been microscopic, compared to what it would have been, without my boat to live aboard.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Having a bad day BS? You sound angry again.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

theboilerflue said:


> Yeah I'm aware that steel is hard on the enviroment, the hull is a one time thing however, the paint not so much. And compare steel smelting to, oil extration and refinment into plastic. I live on about 10-12 grand a year so if you add up all my consumption that I do with that living on the boat it's pretty minimal. I choose a steel boat because I know that I'm hard on things and make a lot of stupid mistakes and need something that is very ah... forgiving, so steel makes a lot of sense.
> If I were to live in an ideal world I'd probably have a small boat that I can pull up a beach, that I can row and sail off the wind, made from local unpainted cedar, foraging for food off the land as people lived before the white man came and destroyed the enviroment in hundred something years.
> And thanks it's a 36'.


Dude, I make TONS of stupid mistakes too. So I hear you. And you're right that steel can take a hell of a pounding. No debate there.

In general, I like your ideas of trying to maintain a modest "footprint". And I respect your willingness to live modestly in order to do it. I really do. I've just never seen it through the lens of _superiority_ that Brent seems to. The color of one's skin, or even the type of skin on one's hull, doesn't matter when both types of boats are borne out of "destroying the environment" in the first place. From there it's just a matter of degrees - and it gets pretty hypocritical when you try to hold one up as "environmentally superior" - that's all I'm saying.

You said you had her in the water in about 2 years - and didn't have much steel-working background prior to starting her. That's the kind of info that makes this thread actually useful. Because she looks really nice.

Overall, how long do you think it took you to totally finish her? And what's a ballpark for how much total money you put into her from start to finish?

In other words, if you were having a beer with someone who was interested in following in your wake and building a BrentBoat, what's the story?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Brent Swain said:


> The environmental impact of the building of my boat was a one shot deal ,30 years ago..


So was mine. What's that prove?

You're trying to get more and more people to take that environmental shot. How is that better?


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

theboilerflue said:


> So what exactly is wrong with recycled stainless steel and coal tar epoxy shank? Brent has been sailing around the south paciifc and BC for 40 years or so on a shoe string budget. He has helped myslef and many other people that I know in real life get into awesome boats that normally would be well beyond their means. A few years before building my boat I read through Thomas Colvins steel boat building book and half way through I decided that attempting such a complicated project of welding up all these perfectly aligned frames, plating it and welding all the steel plate together would end up being a complete abortion and beyond my skill level and wallet, I put the book down and gave up the hope that I would some day have a boat that I could smash into a reef with and still sail away, and so submitted to the all to common advice in forums such as this and advice from these so called "experts" that things can only be done in one way - and it's expensive and hard, better off to hire a "professional".
> Then I ran across Brent's designs and things didn't seem all too complicated, I was in the water under two years later and sailing after that summer, not having sailed really before, not having welded or fabricated much before other than a couple roughly built gates on the farm. Now it's been six years living aboard full time, for free I've been tied to a dock for a grand total of 4 months, three of which were when I was building the interior, one was for free and in the US where they don't like you anchoring for more than 30 days.
> As far as poorly designed, what are you basing this on? My 36' will sail on everytack, upwind proformance is not that of a fancy race boat, and in the choppy upwind work that we get around BC you get about 3-4 knots at 45 degrees, 10-15 degrees off the wind and your up to 6-7 knots, that has always seemed to me to be about as much as one could expect for a big heavy boat. Downwind proformance is awesome the twin keels track downwind wonderfully, the windvane that cost about 100 bucks to build has steered the boat since I launched it, even downwind well. There's been a lot of messing about with the rig since I've launched to get the rig functioning smoothly - I don't think this is specific to Brent's designs and I think I'm happy with it now. I've bounced off several rocks with no major damage, collisions that would of totaled a boat built of any other material than metal. This summer was the first time I had to do any matainence on the hulll and deck it took two days of gringing out all the chips and dings of the last 6 years and throwing several coats of coal tar and some new bottom paint. I did it all on the beach and it cost me nothing other than the paint, grinder and gas for the genny.
> So what part of Brent's poor man DIY philosophy is so upseting for you, I too think that people should live on significantly less than most do, and I think that people should start doing things for themselves rather than relying on this crazy global ecomonic system that makes a habit of expoiting people and the enviroment so a select few, mostly white people can live like kings having life sered to them a silver platter. I think that this is going to be a hard truth that people are going to have to deal with at some point, people will have to make do with less at some point, we can't continue down this wasteful, opulant road forever and I don't think jumping down the throat of anyone who says that things can be done differently is an appropriate or helpful thing to do on these forums.
> ...


Why does Brent (and his minions) always have to make every thread about steel boats into about selling his book? I think he gets harsher treatment than he deserves, but is his own worst enemy. Other designers actually show there work and new ideas here for free, rarely mentioning a book. Most of his is purely him hawking his book.

But the OP already said he was not interested in his DIY style workmanship. Yes, some people are concerned with doing things the right way, not the cheap way. Some try to do things in a professionally fitted out way. Can a boat drawn without the proper mathematical calculations work, yes, but will they preform as well, or look as good as something drawn by someone who will do all the calculations and have an eye for design? NO. There is room for both, but be honest and don't try to make his designs more than they are, rough workman like boats. That is fine, just don't slag those who might want more.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

smackdaddy said:


> Dude, I make TONS of stupid mistakes too. So I hear you. And you're right that steel can take a hell of a pounding. No debate there.
> 
> In general, I like your ideas of trying to maintain a modest "footprint". And I respect your willingness to live modestly in order to do it. I really do. I've just never seen it through the lens of _superiority_ that Brent seems to. The color of one's skin, or even the type of skin on one's hull, doesn't matter when both types of boats are borne out of "destroying the environment" in the first place. From there it's just a matter of degrees - and it gets pretty hypocritical when you try to hold one up as "environmentally superior" - that's all I'm saying.
> 
> ...


Well I do believe in unrelentless critisism about the way people live when they're squanderling the planet, otherwise things won't change. I don't think it's about superiority when criticizing someone for being wasteful, it's a about trying to make the change happen that you want to see in the world. The type of boat or material it's made of doesn't really have that much to do with the enviromental impact, in fact buying a used fiberglass boat would probably be the least of a foot print. The important thing is how much you consume in your life. So as far as "best" boat qualities, I think having a boat that is easy to work on yourself and allow you to live a life resonably off the grid is an important quality.

Totally finish? It's still a work in progress, I launched with no interior or rig, I've replaced the original engine with a differnet one, built the interior twice, built a new boom, re-worked the windvane a couple times to get all the friction out of it and get working in light winds. I don't really keep track of my boating expenses, so it's really just a guess.

20-25 grand for the hull with paint and foam
both used engines took about 3 grand
the rig was 1200 bucks for the mast and rigging and I've gone through several used sails and bought a couple spools of new line.
Bought a ****ty plywood dinghy for 25 bucks then later was given a nice glass dinghy, was also given some winches which was really nice as I was first out sailing without any winches at all - and let me tell you you want an good upper body workout go sailing in heavy gusty weather without using your winches.
I just bought 20 sheets of plywood for interior 2.0 - $700 the first one I bought 3 or 4 sheets and the rest was scavenged plywood, - I didn't like the layout of the first one and since living on the boat know more what I need out of an interior. 
I don't know if I could even offer a guess at the amount I've spent at the scrap yard, I've still several hundered pounds of stainless bits in my keel I use for projects, same goes for consumables like zip disks and welding rod. I would really love to know how many zip disks I've gone through, stainless welding rod I could guess at 100 pounds or so - which would ring in at about a grand. 
Roller furler was maybe 200 bucks, made some davits for a about the same. 
Put up a solar panel arch with some used panel $400 plus some stainless scrap $100. All the various bits of wire and little eletrical gadgets that go with it, sounder, radio, batteries, nav gear ect. all of which are the same for any boat so not worth getting too in to but I would guess I've got 30-40 grand in it. I generally spend at least half of my income on the boat since I got it.

I've a friend who's building a 36' right now and we've extrapolated his costs to be in the 25-30 grand to get the boat in the water with a rig and engine- to the point that you can sail it. Asuming of course that we can find a rig and an engine and drive train for under 10 grand though unless you're particularily anal about keeping your reciepts the costs of other life blur the boat spending. Which is why my friend would want to launch a boat as soon as possible - to cut down on the rent for the building pad. I fourtunalty had a free place to build, so wasn't in as much of a hurry to get the boat in the water. When it came down to it I barely managed to get it in the water before running out of my savings - I had 200 bucks to my name left after I launched, but I was in the water which was awesome.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

miatapaul said:


> Why does Brent (and his minions) always have to make every thread about steel boats into about selling his book? I think he gets harsher treatment than he deserves, but is his own worst enemy. Other designers actually show there work and new ideas here for free, rarely mentioning a book. Most of his is purely him hawking his book.
> 
> But the OP already said he was not interested in his DIY style workmanship. Yes, some people are concerned with doing things the right way, not the cheap way. Some try to do things in a professionally fitted out way. Can a boat drawn without the proper mathematical calculations work, yes, but will they preform as well, or look as good as something drawn by someone who will do all the calculations and have an eye for design? NO. There is room for both, but be honest and don't try to make his designs more than they are, rough workman like boats. That is fine, just don't slag those who might want more.


I resent the minion comment, I see it as I'm fourtunate to find a designer who has basically designed a boat for the lifestyle that I was looking for rather than someone like Mr. Perry here who proudly charges people a fortune to design a boat or even give some consultation, for a boat that requires supporting a very expensive yachting industry, such as haul out yards and fancy chandlery of over priced crap - I mean the boating industry has a very well established reputation for being over priced and I don't think very much of it has any merit in charging as much as they do. So given the title of this thread where I'm assuming that we're trying to outline aspects of what would make the best metal boat.
So to reiterate what I think is important for the best steel sailboat:
Easy to build and maintain with basic skills and tools, as cheaply as can be while still maintaining reliability and sailing ability - all of which are the main foundation of Brent's book and boats. 
Why would it be impossible for a boat that wasn't calculated to death perform as well as one that was designed to a mathimatical formula? Haven't there been boats designed to formula that have been total disasters? How do you know that a Valient 37' performs better than a BS 36'? In what way? boats are all compromises and will perform differently in differnet conditions. 
None of which is the "right" way lets leave the egos out of the discussion here please. There are however methods that are just designed to cost money and ones that don't.


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## harmonic (Sep 10, 2013)

I have a 32 foot dutch steel yacht built in 1964 she has sailed half way round the world as is still in really good condition,she was gutted sandblasted and epoxy painted in 1990 got a new motor at the same time and got a brand new rig in 2000.Steel boats are like granddads axe 3 new heads and 4 new handles and its still granddads axe.I like the fact that they dont get weaker with age and there is no keelbolts or chainplates to worry about.I have sailed a lot of years and havent hit a rock yet so cant tell how it will fare hoping not too,I also like the fact that things stay dry inside even in the roughest weather.They do rust but its easy to find its source and paint it doesnt take too much work,im happy to do it.


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## Panope (Jul 18, 2014)

theboilerflue said:


> I see it as I'm fourtunate to find a designer who has basically designed a boat for the lifestyle that I was looking for rather than someone like Mr. Perry here who proudly charges people a fortune to design a boat or even give some consultation...........


Hello boiler,

Good looking boat. You should be very proud to have built and sailed your own boat. I'm sure you had an amazing sense of accomplishment when you launched her.

I'm not sure that Bob Perry would have been a candidate for you as a designer no matter his rate of pay as he (as far as I can tell) does not sell "stock plans" as Brent does. Seems he has had a long career of designing for mass production (I'm sure his royalty per boat was not a large amount). He also has built a nice business designing custom, one-offs (a service that Brent does not offer at any price).

I'd like to also mention that after knowing Bob for only a couple months (on-line) he helped me with a design problem that had me stumped. I was very grateful for this and would have gladly compensated him. He declined payment.

Steve


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

theboilerflue said:


> I resent the minion comment, I see it as I'm fourtunate to find a designer who has basically designed a boat for the lifestyle that I was looking for rather than someone like Mr. Perry here who proudly charges people a fortune to design a boat or even give some consultation, for a boat that requires supporting a very expensive yachting industry, such as haul out yards and fancy chandlery of over priced crap - I mean the boating industry has a very well established reputation for being over priced and I don't think very much of it has any merit in charging as much as they do. So given the title of this thread where I'm assuming that we're trying to outline aspects of what would make the best metal boat.
> So to reiterate what I think is important for the best steel sailboat:
> Easy to build and maintain with basic skills and tools, as cheaply as can be while still maintaining reliability and sailing ability - all of which are the main foundation of Brent's book and boats.
> Why would it be impossible for a boat that wasn't calculated to death perform as well as one that was designed to a mathimatical formula? Haven't there been boats designed to formula that have been total disasters? How do you know that a Valient 37' performs better than a BS 36'? In what way? boats are all compromises and will perform differently in differnet conditions.
> None of which is the "right" way lets leave the egos out of the discussion here please. There are however methods that are just designed to cost money and ones that don't.


Plain and simple it is called engineering. Bob Perry spent years studying design and engineering to become a qualified marine designer. But to do it without the correct knowledge it is left to chance. I am pretty confidant that they only place a Valiant will not preform better than a Brent boat is when being bashed against the rocks, as it is likely the most acclaimed designs for cruisers out there. By the way he designed production boats that run the gambit of price ranges from much less than your steal boat, to millions for a custom built boat. He has designed boats in wood, fiberglass steel and aluminum. So you do not have to pay him the princely sum for his consultation services to enjoy his designs. Sure he has been harsh in his comments to Brent and you likely have taken offense to them, but they come from Brent either egging him on stating things that are just not true. Oh and Bob can be a grumpy old guy, just like myself! I have to say I do like most of what he has designed, but he is not the only one I admire. Though he is likely the only one to answer an email from me!

As to the Minion part, you have 10 posts here of them 9 are directly supporting Brent's designs, and the 10th one was "liked" by him. So if the shoe fits.... Heck I could be considered a Perry minion, and would not be offended, but it was not me that brought him up. And as I said there is nothing wrong with workman like boats, they serve a purpose, it is you that seems to be saying anything else is bad and a waste of money. Heck you even insulted the OP's boat, and if it is the one in there avatar, then I think that shows your level of taste. So enjoy your boat, and let others decide what they want to enjoy without judging. I live a very simple life, but I don't expect others to as well. Heck I don't even expect my wife to.

Back to the OP You have not stated why you are looking for advice and info about your boat for. You may have in the steel boat thread, but I have not looked at that disaster in months. So tell us why you are thinking it may have to "stay or go." Steel is just a material that boats can be made out of. Just like fiberglass, aluminum, wood or even concrete, there are good boats and bad ones. Certainly all materials have benefits and drawbacks, there is no perfect material. There are no bad materials (given quality raw materials), just bad executions of the materials. If you are concerned about the condition and what will be required maintenance wise I suggest getting a good survey done by a specialist in metal boats. They can tell you what is good, bad and ugly about your boat and what it will take to maintain the boat in it's current standard. They will also tell you what may need to be done to improve on the boat. Certainly a 57 foot steel boat is going to take a lot of maintenance to keep it up. From your profile it looks like you live in Brazil but the boat is in Malaysia. That can make maintaining a boat even more expensive to maintain as you will have to pay basically what ever the boat yards say needs to be done since you are not there. Find a good boat yard and you are golden, but find most and you will be paying a lot of money extra. But that may not be a concern and would not be for the average person who owns such a vessel.

One thing I can say is that it will be a LOT more work to maintain the boat than the property you traded it for! :laugher


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

theboilerflue said:


> Well I do believe in unrelentless critisism about the way people live when they're squanderling the planet, otherwise things won't change.


I've always thought that relentless _rebuttal_ is better than relentless criticism. Rebuttal requires specific facts and logic, criticism usually doesn't. But that's cool.



theboilerflue said:


> The type of boat or material it's made of doesn't really have that much to do with the enviromental impact, *in fact buying a used fiberglass boat would probably be the least of a foot print*. The important thing is how much you consume in your life. So as far as "best" boat qualities, I think having a boat that is easy to work on yourself and allow you to live a life resonably off the grid is an important quality.


Now this I totally agree with. My Hunter is pretty easy to work on and is well set up for reasonably off-the-grid living.



theboilerflue said:


> Totally finish? It's still a work in progress, I launched with no interior or rig, I've replaced the original engine with a differnet one, built the interior twice, built a new boom, re-worked the windvane a couple times to get all the friction out of it and get working in light winds. I don't really keep track of my boating expenses, so it's really just a guess.
> 
> 20-25 grand for the hull with paint and foam
> both used engines took about 3 grand
> ...


Cool. Thanks. This lines up with what I've seen elsewhere.

From all the research I've done on Brent's boats, it looks like a finished boat comes in at the $40K-$50K+ range for everything (assuming a pretty basic interior and equipage) - plus the rent for the pad, tools, etc. And 2-4 years of work to get her there. Definitely helpful information. It's a pretty solid commitment both financially and time-wise. So I commend you.

I paid $42K for my Hunter 40...



















...then quickly put in another $9K replacing the standing rigging. And she's got a pretty sweet interior...



















So, about $51K and I'm recycling. BUT - I definitely can't be hitting a lot of rocks. So there are trade-offs for sure.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Well to begin with: 
There is no such boat as a "Valient 37". So boils is a bit ignorant as to what I do. But that doesn't stop him from giving his opinion and I enjoy reading his stuff. 

But BS has to degrade the thread with more, redundant, snide personal attacks on me. I have come to believe it's just a simple case of "little man syndrome". I can't figure out any other reason he feels personal attacks here have anything to do with the subject at hand. What's next for BS? More attacks on my wife. That was a a classic moment in BS rants.

We should be able to talk about boats without personal attacks. We should be able to voice our opinions and preferences while respecting the preferences of other sailors. Why does it always devolve into " My way is the only way and you are an idiot if you don't go along with me."

I don't like BS boats. I respect BS's ability to weld together a boat. If you like that kind of look then good on ya. I don't but I bet we wear different shirts too. It's just personal taste. You are not wrong. I am not wrong. Neither of us is right. We just have different taste. Boils, I suspect strongly that I would appreciate your life style but I would never want to emulate it. I need to go and put my footprint on some roast beef!

I would really like it if personal attacks were left out of the discussion.

My Australian pal Justin is here for a few days. Justin just won the Blind World Match Racing Championship in Sheboygan W I. Well, he didn't win. He was actually the coach of the winning blind team. We are talking about boats. Justin really knows boats. I'm cooking roast beef. We are not angry or jealous. Just hungry.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Oh man, why did I open this thread........

OH, I KNOW< I KNOW.....bob has roast beast at his house, with an address, I can maybe be there in 30-45 min or so, but with rush hour......I'll add a few min or a half hr or so.......I can bring drinks! AND best of ALL, MR Winston, to clean the dishes.........altho he might have to argue with a port style dog from what I hear.......

hmmmmmmm......

Marty


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Marty:
You are welcome any time. The roast beast was very good. My mashed spuds were perfect.
Sometimes all you need is a good piece of beef, lots of gravy and some mashed spuds. I did a spinach salad to keep my wife happy. I don't think we talked about boats at all. I think we discussed the Tasar dinghy class. Great boats.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I would like to dedicate this wonderful song to the man with a vision...turned into a dream...

Mr. Brent Swain.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

bobperry said:


> Well to begin with:
> There is no such boat as a "Valient 37". So boils is a bit ignorant as to what I do. But that doesn't stop him from giving his opinion and I enjoy reading his stuff. .


My mistake, yes ignorance I was just picking one of your designs off sailboatdata, on which there's two versions of a Valiant 37, I picked it cause it had similar demensions to a BS 36'

As this is the only boat I've owned I don't have a lot real sailing experience on one of your boats to do a comparison to. I have worked as a marine service/repair tech on a variety of fiberglass sailboats, and I'm very thankful to Brent for helping me get into a boat that doesn't have all the pitfalls that I've had to deal with on other boats. I think we can agree that the BS36 hull shape is nothing too out of the 36' heavy displacement cruising boat world (maybe you disagree?) I would hope that my boat/ BS designs don't appear too distasteful to the eye, my welds are rough and there are a few things that may or may not be symmetrical that could, but I only have so much patience for cosmetics and want to go sailing. This is not something that is inherent in his designs just common practice among the people who have built them, I'm sure there are some built by some anal machinist where everything is perfect.
One thing that is really really nice about his designs is that they are very well tested and refined, mine being of a later generation has most of the bugs figured out, the stainless trim is well placed to protect the steel form knocks and bangs, everywhere on the boat is accessible with a grinder easily, structure that has been a problem with previous boats has been beefed up - like the keels and skeg.
The skeg cooling being built into the boat has saved me from any stupid hassle with impellers/heat exchangers - something that I've done a lot of screwing around with on these other yachty boats, I'd say probably 80% of the engine repairs I had to do was impellers or leaky fuel lines, access to the engine is another pitfall on a lot of boats and it makes the repair bill go way up cause you have can't get at something and it takes forever. I had this problem with a 40ish foot Valiant, it took 6 hours to change the stuffing, oil, belts and filters, should be one or two and it would have been had I been able to get at them, there was lots of space on the boat so no reason to cram the engine into the tunnel where you can't get at it. It lets me motor around in silty, debris strewn shoaling waters without worrying about sucking something up to damage the engine.
The windvane Brent has designed is awesome and certainly has helped me learn how to sail greatly, you can take a lot more care to examine the trim of the sails when you're not glued to the tiller.
His roller furler is also dynamite, another thing I've screwed with on yachts a lot - jammed roller furling, why these "professionally" designed ones have all these moving parts that are known to fail often is beyond me, The Brent one is one piece except for the block at the top so really nothing to fail unless the foil twists or breaks on you - which could happen to any roller furler I guess. The only failure it really can have is jumping off the drum which since there's nothing in the way you can easily re-wind it if it happens.
The Pilot house just goes without saying, most boats I imagine are designed for warmer climes and not the BC coast.
An outboard rudder is something I would never go without, I guess if your putting the rudder considerably more forward thats a different thing (still wouldn't want it) but I've never understood why on a lot of boats they put the rudder through a hole in the boat 3" from the stern, it could be hanging off the back basically in the same place vastly simplifying the boat ad making it much more reliable, allows a tiller and a trim tab style windvane - which are far less frictiony and troublesome than servo-pendulums attached to a wheel.
The twins keels too is a personal favorite, not for everyone I guess but if you want to maintain your own boat and not be in indebted to the haulout yards (and have a tide range) its the way to go.
The big ass manual drum winch is very reliable, a work out but I'm young, having it on deck too is awesome keeps all the smelly muddy chain outside of the boat, lets me use what ever chain I can or cheap galvanized cable for that matter.
The alternator welder on board also is genius, I've fabricated a lot of stuff at anchor in the middle of nowhere.
Everything is also very overbuilt which is the forgiving part for mistake and crash jibes and such (and rocks).
Good paint and insulation, the coal tar works very well and has very forgiving application requirements which is great for touch up.
Built in water catchment, wood heat ect... 
Brent doesn't just design the hull its much much more and it comes from his and other BS owners real world personal experience - which is where boat design came from originally, boats built by the people who use them. You know when you've got some manufactured gismo that of course breaks and you while you're cursing the designer you wish that the people who designed it should be forced to use it, as punishment - well that doesn't really apply with his designs cause he's been using them and refining them for 40 years.
Also I'm 6'6" and it made boat shopping very very difficult unless I wanted a 45+ foot boat - and even then almost impossible to find a boat that would be comfortable to live in.

These are all aspects that I have really grown to appreciate and what I consider in the "best metal sailboat" category and are pitfalls that I have seen and dealt with on friends boats and customers boats, things that just shouldn't be - design flaws and corners cut.

Here's a question for you Bob, maybe I'm mistaken here but why don't you have much sheer in your designs, a lot of your boats seem to have a very flat profile? do you just not like the look?


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Boiler, thanks for pointing out many of the details of your Brent boat. I like the idea of built in water catchment. 

Keel coolers are awesome too.

Medsailor


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

theboilerflue said:


> Here's a question for you Bob, maybe I'm mistaken here but why don't you have much sheer in your designs, a lot of your boats seem to have a very flat profile? do you just not like the look?


_SERIOUSLY???_

Wow, you certainly haven't seen a representative sample of Bob's designs 

His Tayana 52 gets my vote for the Most Beautiful Sheerline Ever...


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

Looks pretty flat to me.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Golly gosh Jon. You are making me cry!

Boiler:
Please go to my website (link below) I think you will find that in the hundreds of boats I have designed there are some with lots of sheer spring, i.e. CT54, TY37, Valiant 32, etc and some with very little sheer spring, i.e. ICON, FREE RANGE CHJICKEN, AMATI etc. I design in a variety of styles to suit the aesthetic taste of the client and the general aesthetic character of the boat style. If you think all my boats have flat sheers then you are simply not looking hard enough or your own eye is not sensitive to the nuances of sheer spring differences. But I'd bet that if you looked at my web site you would agree with me. The only sheerline I have not done is a reverse sheer. But I would if it suited the project. Sheer spring is a matter of taste.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Boiler:
Flat sheers are only flat at one heel angle and the amount of spring you see varies with the heel angle and which side of the boat you are on. For instance, the photo Jon posted is taken from the weather side of the boat. This will always flatten the sheer. A photo from the leeward side will exaggerate sheer spring. Your example pic was shot with the camera below the sheer. This has the exact same effect as shooting from the weather side. A dead straight line sheer will appear to have spring as the boat heels and can be a very attractive sheer. I take a great deal of care with my sheers. They are not the accident of geometry exercises. In most cases, but not all, I try for a planar sheer. No doubt you know and understand planar sheers. I find on most boats the planar approach to the sheer gives the best sheer spring at a wide variety of heel angles.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

Ah yes, that makes sense, I guess it was just in the pictures I was looking when looking for a similarly sized boat to BS36, just happened to be a lot of flat sheered boats looked at from the water line.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

bobperry said:


> Boiler:
> No doubt you know and understand planar sheers. I find on most boats the planar approach to the sheer gives the best sheer spring at a wide variety of heel angles.


No I have no idea what planar sheer is?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Boiler: I am not a "one trick pony". Even a cursory look at my body of work will show that I have designed all types of boats in all materials. Any attempt to paint "all Perry designs" as this or that would show a lack of understanding of yacht design.

Are you going to compare the FT10M with the Baba 30, ICON with the Valiant 40, STARBUCK with the Lafitte 44? Good luck with that. I really do think you need to visit my web site and my blog. You'll get a far better feel for what I am trying to explain than I can provide here in words.

If you can get ahold of a copy of my book YACHT DESIGN ACCORDING TO PERRY I have a section where I discuss various sheerlines including the planar sheer. I even have a photo there to illustrate how you can check for a planar sheer. My lovely wife took the photo.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Boiler:
*Planar sheer:*
Imagine the sheerline is a cut through the topsides* ALL IN ONE PLANE*. The curvature of the hull provides the sheer spring and the spring is a function of the height of the front of the plane at the bow, the height of the back of the plane at the stern and the angle downward (for a conventional sheer) the plane is tilted.

Sound complex but it is simple. Imagine you have a half model of your boat and you are holding the model in your hands and you are standing next to your dining table. Now, tilt the model upside down so the sheer is on the bottom. Now try to lay the model, sheer down on top of the table.Tilt the model back and forth until the entire sheerline lays flat on the table.

If you cannot get the sheer to lay flat on the tale the sheer is *NOT PLANAR*.
IF you can get the sheer to lay flat on the table top mthe sheer is* PLANAR*.

This is an old trick used by many designers to insure that the sheerline remains fair regardless of the heel angle. It does not work for double enders. But I wont go into why now. Many beautiful boats have non planar sheers. It's just a design tool option the skilled designer is familiar with. I make a decision early on whether I want a planar sheer or a non planar sheer.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

Well I've never claimed to know anything about hull design, my experiences are only in aspects of a boat that are relatively unrelated to the hull shape and more related to ease of construction and maintenance, use, layout, systems, gear that works ect...

I certainly have grown to appreciated a well balanced hull that doesn't turn all squirly in following seas or veer upwind uncontrollably.

thanks for the discription, pretty simple. A double ender would roll bow to stern a bit on the table right?. Till you flaten the curve as you push out the transom.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

"I certainly have grown to appreciated a well balanced hull that doesn't turn all squirly in following seas or veer upwind uncontrollably."

Boiler:
OK, but how do you know the differences without sailing the boat?

The problem with *double enders* and the *planar sheer* is this.

The amount of spring in the planar sheer is a function of the curvature of the hull. Think of it in plan view if that makes it easier. It does for me. Imagine measuring the entire linear length of the sheer. Not the LOA, but the actual length of the sheer as if you laid a tape measure all the way down the edge of the deck.

The longer this line the more sheer spring you can use. A long skinny boat like FRANCIS LEE does not need much sheer spring. If it had a lot it would look like a banana. If I added three feet of beam to FL that line along the sheer would be much longer.

The amount of curvature in the sheer at any given point will (should/could) reflect the amount of curvature in the hull at that point. As the stern of a double ender tucks in (in plan view) the demands on sheer spring increase. If the shape is rolling in hard in plan view it must roll in hard in profile in order to stay planar. But this can look awful.

The solution is to abandon the planar sheer for double enders and accept some degree of "unfairness" in the sheer at certain heel angles. This is usually manifested as what's called the "powderhorn" sheer. You can see this very easily in my own Valiant 40 if the photo is taken from the weather side of a heeled boat. You can also very easily see this when you walk through a boatyard and look up at the sheers of the boats on jacks on the hard. The sheer spring will reverse itself in the ends of a non planar sheer boat.

This is no big deal. It's just a way of evaluating sheer treatments. I like to control every inch of the hull's shape. I would never let my hull be an artifact of a geometry process. Call me a "control freak".

I'll bet you a dinner at my beach shack that if you pick the ten best sheers to your eye you will find that they are very close to being planar.

Ma po tofu ( Mother Po's tofu) for dinner tonight, a Chinese staple dish and one of my lovely wife's favorite dinners. I'll make enough for three. Of course there will be a variety of vegetables too.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Some of the most important things to know about steel boats are:
They need lots of paint ,especially inside, from the outset. The thicker the better.
I remember seeing a Vancouver Foulkes 39 in Samoa which was having paint problems. I could see the weld pattern thru the paint, and tiny blisters in the topsides paint . Tiny blisters are only possible on thin paint. It doesn't happen on paint of adequate thickness. With thick paint , only big blisters show. 
Adequate thickness of paint covers and completely fills any weld pattern.Any time you see weld pattern thru the paint, the paint is anything but thick enough. Thin paint looks super smooth and "Yachtie" but doesn't come anywhere near giving adequate protection. Thicker paint tends to look a bit rougher the thicker it gets. If your paint is looking too rough, but is giving you no problems, and you like smooth,then it is better to fair it than remove it.
Spray foam does not protect steel adequately. Inside , you need a lot of epoxy on clean steel, to provide adequate long term protection. Building from scratch, you can buy your steel as clean as it gets , shot blasted and primed with cold galvanizing primer. Then, before applying epoxy, you can etch and clean the primer with vinegar , and TSP ,then water , removing all the welding smoke ( smoke which will stop epoxy from sticking outside ) If your paint is not thick enough outside, you can easily apply more , something you cant do inside. So get the inside right the first time.
Much of the bad reputation of steel boats comes from inadequate paint inside, such as the Foulkes and Fehr boats, commercially built in BC, none of which had any paint inside, unless they were bought in the bare shell stage, and properly finished by "Amateurs." Amazons had only a thin coat of primer inside, and very little inside welding, the outside welds being mostly ground off, to make them look "Yachtie",leaving the thickness of a beer can holding them together. The only ones commercially built and properly painted and welded in BC was the Waterlines; horrendously expensive boats.
Stainless should be used on all outside corners subject to wear, which can reduce maintenance by up to 80%. Hatch coamings should be made out of stainless plate.
Designing in steel is best be done by people who have a lot of long term cruising experience in steel boats and decades of maintaining one, not by plastic boat designers straying out of their field of knowledge. Ditto for accepting advice on steel boats .
I have found you learn a lot about designing a boat for long term easy maintenance after owning one for 30 years, which you wouldn't know after only ten years.
Maintenance on my current boat, after 30 years, is far easier than it was on my last boat after ten years.
Many of the questions one gets here are answered in my book. Pointing people to my book is a lot easier than re-writing the whole book, over and over again here.
If you have any further questions, specific to steel, ask away. I don't charge for answers (unlike a lot of designers and builders)


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Brent Swain said:


> Many of the questions one gets here are answered in my book. Pointing people to my book is a lot easier than re-writing the whole book, over and over again here.


You have a book? Wow. Who knew?

I have an idea...



Brent Swain said:


> If you have any further questions, specific to steel, ask away. I don't charge for answers (unlike a lot of designers and builders)


...you should be true to your word and give your book away. It's the right thing to do.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

After all the crap that BS has endured(deservedly or not) I think that his last post was helpful,informative and non drifting. That's pretty generous,in my book. and there are some I wouldn't give the time of day,let alone a copy. Be nice if this tread is not hijacked by the same clowns that brought its predecessor to its demise. (sorry about the drift but I think I'm not tacking against a flood here.) If I am,you can just lick your fingers.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Len - you're right. Most of his last post was great. And if it weren't for these little tidbits, I would have let it go...



Brent Swain said:


> Designing in steel is best be done by people who have a lot of long term cruising experience in steel boats and decades of maintaining one, *not by plastic boat designers straying out of their field of knowledge.* Ditto for accepting advice on steel boats .


...and this...



Brent Swain said:


> If you have any further questions, specific to steel, ask away. I don't charge for answers *(unlike a lot of designers and builders)*


Every time he takes petty shots like that, I feel perfectly fine giving him a pop in the chops right back. It's really up to him.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

It is indeed unfortunate that BS can't post a single post without adding some snide comments. Just talk about boats and forget the jejune, as Len put it "clown" attitude.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Here is an interesting video. This guy started his origami build in 2006. The video shows where he is now.

He mentions Brent Swain at about 1:50. He asked for help from Brent and was turned down. You can listen to the guy for why...






You should also read his blog. Very good insight...



> You have to pay for the boat's cost; a hull, mast, sails, rigging. but as you are the builder you have lots of negotiating room with the new owner. The new owner can easily quadruple that cost by adding all sorts of yachty crap. So decide how much crap you want. Building bigger does reduce the cost per square foot some, but not greatly. You can build a 36 foot origami boat in one year for $20,000 and you will not need two cranes. We will have 400 to 500 thousand in our boat before it touches the water and we are building a work boat, not a yacht. So you don't have 500,000 laying around? Neither do we. Kay is retied and can no longer work a regular job due to fibromyalgia; aka "lots of pain". And we have never saved money. But building a boat does not happen over night so we have time. We simply downsized everything and devoted every dime to the boat. No vacations, fancy cars, expensive restaurants, bars, cloths, watches, jewelry, green fees, or 401K's. We are focused on nothing other than the boat until I die or the boat is completed. PS: Should I die before the boat is completed, Kay is one amazingly awesome woman, but you will need to get in line as she has several fans that are waiting for me to end up under a large piece of steel. So if money means a lot to you, DO NOT BUILD A BOAT! Just take the cruise ship.


8 years and counting. I definitely admire his tenacity.

Before you think about building an origami steel boat for yourself...you should DEFINITELY talk to this guy. Maybe even help him for a few weeks. You would get the absolute truth...not marketing hype.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

I don't know if doug and kay's boat building adventure is a very good example of the necessary work involved in building a steel boat - they opted for a lot of work, it's awesome that project don't get me wrong - they seem to really enjoy the building process and have chosen to do a lot of things that aren't exactly a "necessity". Great video blog those two have I enjoyed watching their progress I wish they weren't out in Oklahoma though or I'd go visit and lend a hand.

Smackdaddy what the f**k? have a look at the first few post on this thread. The first post was a question for information on steel boats, the second was a recommendation to contact brent swain for information as he is a wealth of practical information about steel boats. Then there was this guy, shank32095 who claimed Brent's boats to be poorly designed - without any examples as to why he said that. I mean people are entitled to their opinions but when you're just criticizing someone without any explanation as to why it becomes very clear that you just have personal problem with Brent and you're just criticizing what ever he says - this is not useful to anyone. This is especially not useful to someone who is just perusing this forum looking for information, in fact it's just tiring to sift through. Imagine if you were someone who was looking to buy a steel boat and looking for some information as to what to look for and you've got to weed through all this completely irrelevant text to get to anything useful. There are a lot of people who just read looking for useful info and don't post - generally thats what I do and mainly it's because of people who act like you have been on the thread - I think you feel threatened by Brent in some way and you need to deal with it. In other words grow up.
Read through this thread again and take note of several people who have thanked Brent for his help or recommended him.

There are practices in fiberglass/wood/concrete boat building that certain designers carry over to steel boats that are bad mistakes, attaching stanchions to the deck right next to the bulwark creating a rust spot inaccessible to a grinder is an example of this, as is closing in a coaming, bolting on fittings rather than the much better welding method, not adequate paint on the inside.... it goes on and on.

I think there is a lot of truth to what Brent said about designers of steel boats having practical life experience building and maintaining steel boats, same goes for any material though less on on maintenance side of things with fiberglass but still I bet there are a lot of mistakes that could be made out of ignorance of the material and construction method.

So for example Here are Bob's own words:

"I don't weld. My son Spike is an excellent welder, a true artist. He made a suit of armor. I don't need to weld because I don't build boats I design boats. Let me say that again because I think you need it repeated. I do not build boats. I am not a boat builder. I am a boat designer. I never claimed to be a boat builder. Once again just for you, I never claimed to be a boat builder.. I have about 6,000 boats on the water to my credit. These are boats I designed. I'll make this easy for you.
I do not build in wood.
I do not build in aluminum.
I do not build in steel.
I do not build in GRP.
I do not build in composite.
I am only a poor designer of yachts. (<--- oops! this could be taken out of context)
There, I think I made that clear.
Cheers,
Bob P."

I'm sure you (Bob) know your stuff as to the shape of a hull and how it interacts with the rig. I'm sure you're a wealth of information when it comes to designing boat for people with lots of money or cheaply made production boats but this leaves me wondering why you would be on a thread called "best metal boat".

Brent's book is full of useful information overwhelmingly so, I'm still getting use out of it, all these years later. I consider it along with Nigel Calders mechanical/electrical book and Americas Test Kitchen "The Science of Good Cooking" to be one of those critical reference books to have aboard. It's a self published book and for 25-30 bucks depending where you live with shipping I believe, probably costs 10-15 bucks to put together plus his time binding them all -not exactly a fortune being made, mailing it off for free would cost Brent money and he is not a rich man in fact he probably subsists on less in a year than you spend on keeping your boat at a slip.
Origami Boat Building and it has lots of information that IS RELEVANT to this discussion so I don't see why it can't be recommended.
Have you ever read his book Smackdaddy? maybe you should fork over the 25 buckerounies and then you be armed with some actual factual information you can critique him on.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Boiler:
I subscribe to Cooks Illustrated they are connected to America's Test Kitchen. I like the way they combine the art and science of cooking. Reminds me of how I design boats.

BS makes some outrageous claims and Smack does a good job of keeping him checked. When BS devolves into constant personal attacks instead of keeping to the subject of boats he leaves room for Smacker's counter attacks. BS once went after my wife! He has never met my wife and would not know her if he bumped into her. But for BS she was fair game. I do not think that is the behavior of a person with character or integrity. FWIW my wife does not design boats and does not read this site or post here.

IMO the key is to keep the discussion about boats and to respect each other's strengths and accomplishments. I have no desire to work with steel boats but I have designed a few nice ones. I come to this thread because of my general interest in all boats.


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## rgp (Jul 20, 2005)

The Steel Hull by Roger McAfee


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

theboilerflue said:


> ISmackdaddy what the f**k? have a look at the first few post on this thread. The first post was a question for information on steel boats, the second was a recommendation to contact brent swain for information as he is a wealth of practical information about steel boats. Then there was this guy, shank32095 who claimed Brent's boats to be poorly designed - without any examples as to why he said that. I mean people are entitled to their opinions but when you're just criticizing someone without any explanation as to why it becomes very clear that you just have personal problem with Brent and you're just criticizing what ever he says - this is not useful to anyone. This is especially not useful to someone who is just perusing this forum looking for information, in fact it's just tiring to sift through. Imagine if you were someone who was looking to buy a steel boat and looking for some information as to what to look for and you've got to weed through all this completely irrelevant text to get to anything useful. There are a lot of people who just read looking for useful info and don't post - generally thats what I do and mainly it's because of people who act like you have been on the thread - I think you feel threatened by Brent in some way and you need to deal with it. In other words grow up.
> Read through this thread again and take note of several people who have thanked Brent for his help or recommended him.


boiler - you're kind of new to this conversation, so I'll cut you a break. This conversation has been going on a LONG time. One of the most viewed threads of all time on SN is where you'll find every example you can possibly think of for why Brent gets the blowback he gets:

*http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/94255-pros-cons-steel-sailboats.html*

In that thread, you'll find ALL the reasons most of us feel compelled to challenge Brent's posts..which, if not immature, petty shots at Bob, are claims that are far from honest/accurate. For a quick summary of those claims, you can look through this post which compiles them all into one place and make up your own mind:

*BS Yachts Marketing Program*

So I'll make you a deal. I'll do as you say and read back through this thread for the positive comments. And you read through the Pros and Cons thread for the backstory. Then let's talk.

Oh, and...



theboilerflue said:


> ...probably costs 10-15 bucks to put together plus his time binding them all -not exactly a fortune being made, mailing it off for free would cost Brent money and he is not a rich man in fact *he probably subsists on less in a year than you spend on keeping your boat at a slip*.


I certainly don't hold that against him. It's irrelevant.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Here is an interesting video. This guy started his origami build in 2006. The video shows where he is now.
> 
> He mentions Brent Swain at about 1:50. He asked for help from Brent and was turned down. You can listen to the guy for why...
> 
> ...


Well to Brent's credit he turned down the job of doing the drawings, because he does not think it is a good thing for a home builder to do big boats, as they rarely finish them. He specializes in the smaller origami boats so he turned him down not for "help" but because it was out of his scope of knowledge. One has to commend that he understands his limitations, and the limitations of most and seemingly this builder. Sure this guy keeps plugging along but wow I don't see that boat ever hitting the water. Heck he still is doing design work, having not decided on how high to make the cabin house. You would think that would be stuff you know before you start, not a on the fly kind of thing. That is a recipe for disaster, and I think Brent saw that. Heck he is going to use bus windows for the pilot house, they don't seem like they are designed for taking waves. Light weight aluminum track frames, not something I would want in an "expedition" boat as the builder seems to be calling the boat.

Sad part is this guy is 8 years into it, $500,000 poorer, and not even half way there.



theboilerflue said:


> I don't know if doug and kay's boat building adventure is a very good example of the necessary work involved in building a steel boat - they opted for a lot of work, it's awesome that project don't get me wrong - they seem to really enjoy the building process and have chosen to do a lot of things that aren't exactly a "necessity". Great video blog those two have I enjoyed watching their progress I wish they weren't out in Oklahoma though or I'd go visit and lend a hand.
> 
> Smackdaddy what the f**k? have a look at the first few post on this thread. The first post was a question for information on steel boats, the second was a recommendation to contact brent swain for information as he is a wealth of practical information about steel boats. Then there was this guy, shank32095 who claimed Brent's boats to be poorly designed - without any examples as to why he said that. I mean people are entitled to their opinions but when you're just criticizing someone without any explanation as to why it becomes very clear that you just have personal problem with Brent and you're just criticizing what ever he says - this is not useful to anyone. This is especially not useful to someone who is just perusing this forum looking for information, in fact it's just tiring to sift through. Imagine if you were someone who was looking to buy a steel boat and looking for some information as to what to look for and you've got to weed through all this completely irrelevant text to get to anything useful. There are a lot of people who just read looking for useful info and don't post - generally thats what I do and mainly it's because of people who act like you have been on the thread - I think you feel threatened by Brent in some way and you need to deal with it. In other words grow up.
> Read through this thread again and take note of several people who have thanked Brent for his help or recommended him.


Well the suggestion of Brent being a good source in the second post was a sarcastic one. While I think the suggestion that Brent's boats are ugly was a bit harsh, but they are quite "workman like" so if the (old) shoe fits wear it. They are not made for looks, but for doing a task. shank32095 was stating that he wanted professional not the Brent style DIY, yet he had to jump in and start his critique that all boats but his are a waste of money. Brent, and yes I will say it again his minions, have turned a thread about someone trying to find good info about high end steel yachts into a pissing match about who can find the best garbage in a dumpster and if you don't dumpster dive you are a bad rich wasteful person thread.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

miatapaul said:


> Well to Brent's credit he turned down the job of doing the drawings, because he does not think it is a good thing for a home builder to do big boats, as they rarely finish them. He specializes in the smaller origami boats so he turned him down not for "help" but because it was out of his scope of knowledge. One has to commend that he understands his limitations, and the limitations of most and seemingly this builder.


I just don't understand why he helped Paul L. on his 65' boat...










...but wouldn't help the Seeker dude on his. Oh well.

From what I remember from the last thread, Paul L. was trying to sell his half-finished boat. So maybe Brent had a point.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

These are two very good examples of why I don't want to work with home builders. They seldom know what they are getting themselves into. And if by chance they do produce a finished boat is looks a bit too "hand hewn" for my eye and the resale prices reflect this very accurately. That said, some home builders do quite a nice job. But even then the boats suffer in resale value. I don't think "dumpster divers" is a fair label to pin on all home builders but BS does live that life style and he manages to attract similar people. I can tell you with all certainty that I will never dive into a dumpster. Oh,,,,maybe if I saw a box full of vintage Dunhill pipes I might do a half gainer.

I have nothing against dumpster diver home builders. I wish them all the best of luck. I'm sure that many of them are nice people. It's just not my style. It's not what I had in mind when I began designing boats.

I like boats like YONI, built in BC by Brian Riley, Kiwi alu boatbuilder and finished by Eric Jepsersen's crew in Sidney. This boat well reflects my idea of a metal yacht. It was my second design for that client.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Pretty boat Bob. Don't understand why he has two headsails up? Especially that combination? Please elucidate.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Out:
YONI is a cutter.
The owner wanted staysail, working jib and genoa all on roller furling for ease single handing. Noite the Leisure Furl boom. It worked but that is a lot of windage and when he brought the boat down to Seattle with John Guzzwell in a storm they dared not enter the marina for fear of not being able to control the boat in the marina. That is the working jib you see flying in that photo.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks. Would have thought forward sail would be a yankee on that point of sail. Must take some attention to keep two slots going but the trim looks perfect. A good sailor runs that boat


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Out:
The outer genoa was a reacher and intended to be used with the working genoa as a twin headsail downwind rig. Unfortunately the boat was a bit much for the owner who sold it two years after he had it built. He has a Hood 38 now. He wanted to build the boat of his dreams. We did two designs. He paid very well. He would come to my office on Wednesdays and sit by my side as I drew away back in the old pencil and ink days. He loved the process. He loved the build process. If the builder came up with an idea he'd say, "Ok, let's do it." He got a marvelous boat but a big boat for one guy. He remains a very good friend of mine. He comes to dinner once and a while. Time I gave him another invite.

Tonight is stuffed acorn squash. I'm not big on squash. Who'd want to eat "squash". But I cut one in half, hollow it out and stuff it with my basic meatloaf mix of pork sausage, onions, celery and ground beef. I do pick my own beef roasts and have them ground. I want to know exactly what I am eating. I mound the meat mix over the squash and jam a wedge of cheese into it. There is not a lot of finesse involved. My wife likes it.


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## Panope (Jul 18, 2014)

I'll give some Aluminum sailboat information (no claim of "best").

People like to worry about corrosion in aluminum boats. Just the other day an acquaintance learned that I have an old aluminum boat and the first words out of his mouth were "what about your corrosion problems". My response: "I ain't got no corrosion problems".

Not sure if I am smart, lucky or the problem is simply overblown.

Here is my deal:

The hull was sandblasted and painted (exterior only) in 1976. This *original* coating is still perfectly solid and 99% intact. Subsequent repainting as been applied over the original finish after sanding. Here, you can see a spot of bare aluminum (near my right arm) that probably resulted from improper original sandblasting (jackstand?). I believe this area remained un-coated and under water for several years. I could not find any pitting or degradation. I did find some paint bubbling near the bob stay tang (now removed) but no significant pitting.










The boat has never been plugged into any shore power (boat is tied to a dock with many plugged in boats). The D.C. electrical system is (mechanically) isolated from the hull (the water in the cooling system is a potential conductor however). I did install a separate battery on/off switch between the engine block and the D.C. negative buss that is normally off unless the engine is running.










The boat was originally launched in 1982 and was continuously in salt water for 18 years. The boat is now 5 months into its second life after a 14 modification/rebuild. I regularly peek below the waterline (at low tide, on a beech) and vigilantly check for corrosion or paint problems.

Hull zincs have never shown rapid decay. This is after 5 months. I made the stand-offs nice and tall so the bolt threads can be very deep for lots of torque.










Prop zinc decays more rapidly. Again, this is after 5 months in salt water.










So here is the worst of the corrosion on the entire boat. My dad knew that bronze and aluminum are bad mix when he installed these ports. He attempted to isolate metals with plastic spacers and 5200. It was not quite good enough. My temporary solution was to sandblast and paint the area. I will get around to a permanent solution (welding in aluminum ports) in another 20 or 30 years.










I think that the experience nearly all boaters have with stainless steel fasteners causing their *cast* aluminum components to disintegrate has led to the belief that aluminum hulls will turn to mush just as rapidly. I am no metallurgist, but the 5000 and 6000 series aluminum used in aluminum hull construction behaves completely differently than whatever they make cast parts from. I have seen very little problems with SS fastened directly to proper marine grade aluminum. This SS boom goose-neck has been in this hole for 33 years and remains free to rotate, free of "white powder" and no paint bubbling.










Even with the positively dreadfull condition of Panope's previous paint (from 1995, all that was needed to make her new again was to sand off the flaky topcoat from the substantial epoxy primer, sandblast any exposed metal, and repaint. Granted, I do my painting with a brush (broom) so any of you shinny paint lovers will have a few extra steps.




























Note: The rusty washer and its bolt are part of a trailer.


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## Panope (Jul 18, 2014)

.........continued

We have never been religious about keeping the bilges dry. The few drops from the stuffing box has always kept a bit of water here that the bilge pump could not suck up. During the rebuild (with a 2 foot X 8 foot hole cut into the aft deck) I let rainwater stand for several years (See water stain). I even let this water freeze (the horror) with no problems. The engine beds are new.










Even the haphazard (in my opinion) way that my father installed the ballast as not caused problems. He first coated the area with some kind of brushed on coating (without blasting) and then bedded (with concrete) lead pigs. He did make sure that the lead was not directly touching aluminum. It is pretty cruddy looking down there but I can assure you that the metal is solid with only surface discoloration. The ink markings on the framing are from her original build in 1976.










I have seen pictures of Aluminum boats that were virtually irreparable from below the waterline pitting. I have seen pictures of aluminum boats where constant repainting was necessary due to cancerous paint bubbling. I wish I knew the circumstances behind these problems. Maybe no sandblasting before paint? Too much bondo trapping moisture? Dodgy wiring/shore power connections?

Like mentioned previously, maybe luck as something to do with it. Perhaps this same sort of luck keeps an FRP hull free from blisters or deck leaks. Or the same luck that keeps teredos from gobbling up a wood hull, or rust from getting a foothold in a steel boat.

Happy Boating,

Steve


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## Bob142 (May 27, 2012)

Here is an interesting video. This guy started his origami build in 2006. The video shows where he is now.
He mentions Brent Swain at about 1:50. He asked for help from Brent and was turned down. You can listen to the guy for why...
8 years and counting. I definitely admire his tenacity.

Before you think about building an origami steel boat for yourself...you should DEFINITELY talk to this guy. Maybe even help him for a few weeks. You would get the absolute truth...not marketing hype.

Smack that was a very interesting post...
I question why you would twist it into a put down on Brent and how you can compare building a 50 plus boat and a 36 footer...also in that 8 years I saw a lot of side projects and a lot of detail work in the water tight doors and deck braces...I am sure that he could have had it in the water in less time if that had been his focus...

Miatapaul 

My guess after watching his level of workmanship is that you probably don't have to worry about the bus windows...that idea will likely change by the time he gets to the wheel house...


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Look where that guy lives. Oklahoma? He's probably not a sailor. He may be in no hurry to finish the boat because he is having fun puttering away on it. I've known guys like this. The last thing they want is to finish the boat. Then they will have to sail it!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Bob142 said:


> Smack that was a very interesting post...
> I question why you would twist it into a put down on Brent and how you can compare building a 50 plus boat and a 36 footer...


"Twist it into a put down on Brent?" Dude, please. I just quoted the guy saying he'd asked Brent for help designing the boat and that Brent turned him down. This is exactly what happened according to this guy.

How on earth are _facts_ a put down on Brent? Wait. Ah, now I see the whole problem...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Panope - you need to be the official metal boat expert for all of SN. That is incredible work. Seriously.


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## Panope (Jul 18, 2014)

Thanks, smackdaddy

I still have a few to many holes in my knowledge to be branded an expert. How about enthusiastic amateur.

Steve


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Okay. But judging by that boat - you're one hell of an amateur.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

miatapaul said:


> Well to Brent's credit he turned down the job of doing the drawings, because he does not think it is a good thing for a home builder to do big boats, as they rarely finish them. He specializes in the smaller origami boats so he turned him down not for "help" but because it was out of his scope of knowledge. One has to commend that he understands his limitations, and the limitations of most and seemingly this builder. Sure this guy keeps plugging along but wow I don't see that boat ever hitting the water. Heck he still is doing design work, having not decided on how high to make the cabin house. You would think that would be stuff you know before you start, not a on the fly kind of thing. That is a recipe for disaster, and I think Brent saw that. Heck he is going to use bus windows for the pilot house, they don't seem like they are designed for taking waves. Light weight aluminum track frames, not something I would want in an "expedition" boat as the builder seems to be calling the boat.
> 
> Sad part is this guy is 8 years into it, $500,000 poorer, and not even half way there.


Well, to there credit I just heard on CBC this morning about this anthropological expedition that was doing research on fishing weirs off of Haida Gwaii, old ones that were in shallow waters when the sea levels were down 150 feet than they are now. So ROV research run by UVIC engeneering dpetartment. - The Buget for it, I think if I heared this right was for the boat, ROV and crew - for one season: *1.5 BILLION DOLLARS*. So I think doug and kay are doing alright.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

__
https://soundcloud.com/cbcvictoria%2Fsearching-for-an-ancient-haida-gwaii-fishing-weir

for those interested.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Panope said:


> I'll give some Aluminum sailboat information (no claim of "best").
> 
> People like to worry about corrosion in aluminum boats. Just the other day an acquaintance learned that I have an old aluminum boat and the first words out of his mouth were "what about your corrosion problems". My response: "I ain't got no corrosion problems".
> 
> ...


Now that is some nice work! A lot of boat too. How big is it? I think you are lucky to have a great base to display your workmanship on! My only experience with Aluminum corrosion, is that if you mix different metals with it, and add a bit of electrical charge it will corrode amazingly fast. In my case it was not a boat, but some fixtures in a house that had questionable wiring. Outdoor aluminum light fixtures that when we had some live juice flowing into the ground circuit, took just a few weeks to basically turn to powder. I don't know if it was the copper, brass, steel, electricity or just the unlucky mix of them and some particularly rainy weather that caused it but once it started it was a mess and happened very quickly. I think if you control any stray currents, and keep up with the maintenance it is a great material. I have seen an 40 year old aluminum dingy that looked new. Biggest issue I think would be shore power. Keep that isolated and you should be good.

And this is more of what the OP wanted to see I would guess.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

There are some short memories around here. I began posting pics of Steve's boat months ago on the other thread. I was struck by the skill of Steve's work the moment I saw it. I think his boat is proof that "homebuilt" does not have to mean "crude". I was so impressed with Steve's boat that I invited him to the Perry Rendezvous this year. I wanted the owners of my boats to see an alternative way of producing a quality boat. Part of Steve's skill, is that he is also a designer of some skill. You can't beat that design/build with skill combo.

PANOPE was very well received at the Perry Rendezvous. I also appreciated Steve buzzing the Rendezvous in his plane and taking some great aerial shots.


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## Panope (Jul 18, 2014)

miatapaul said:


> Now that is some nice work! A lot of boat too. How big is it?............


Thanks miatapaul,

The hull is a run-of-the-mill Colvin Saugeen Witch. The pilot house, rig, and a zillion other details and deck treatments are my own concoction. 34 feet L.O.D.. About 7 tons.

Picture taken the day before yesterday.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

What are you sitting that on?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I keep offering Steve my help with the design elements but he seems think he can do fine without my help. What a weirdo.

Every once and a while you see a dog. It's not a special dog. The tail is odd.
It's not a blue blood by any means. But it's a furry being that grabs you. I'm a bit that way with boats. Steve's boat grabbed me.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I have found building decks far easier , if you cut the panels to to size and weld on all the stringers and longitudinals on a work bench, before installing them.. That eliminates a whole lot of overhead welding, compared to the traditional "Put the beams in place, and fit the decks to them "method. One owner found 5 by 10 ft sheets in a scrapyard for $12 each. We made them into deck panels and he took them away to be sandblasted and primed before installing them, far easier than blasting them in place, overhead ,inside a shell .
Sandblasting the inside of a hull is a horrendous job. Buying your steel shotblasted and primed at the source, eliminates this problem.If , however, you are faced with the job, burning some good sized holes at the low points of the hull, where sand gathers, makes sand removal easier,and the job far less exhausting. With welds being 100% the strength of the steel and more, this should cause no problems. Black blasting sand reflects less light , improving visibility when blasting inside.
Blasting the hull before putting decks on is far easier. I watched them build a tug once, in Auckland . They blasted and primed the parts, before installing them, saving a huge amount of work and misery. Blasting the welds afterwards is a much easier task.
My current boat is 30 years old, and has never been sandblasted, thanks to buying shot blasted and pre primed plate from the outset.
If your paint job is mostly giving you no problems, it would be insane to remove it. However, if it is rusting constantly, and doing little to prevent rust, it was probably poorly done in the first place. Then, blasting it and giving it a very thick buildup of epoxy will reduce your maintenance to minimal , for many years.
Wood trim has no place on the outside of a steel boat.As it shrinks and swells in varying weather ,no bedding compound can keep it sealed .Even a tiny amount of wood trim will be far more maintenance than the rest of the boat combined. Keep your wood artistry below decks, out of the weather.
For decks ,most welding distortion is caused by longitudinal shrinkage of the hull-deck joint and the deck-cabinside joint welds. For this reason transverse deck beams do little to control distortion. That takes longitudinals, one for 18 inch wide side decks, and 2 for 2 ft wide side decks. . 
The foredeck tends to bulge out slightly when the edges are shrunk by welding. Where the side deck meets the foredeck, there is a tendency for longitudinal shrinkage to leave a slight hollow in the weld . A couple of short longitudinals in the foredeck at this point, between the first two foredeck beams, avoids this problem ,giving you a fair transition.


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## Panope (Jul 18, 2014)

Tried to find a single picture that shows the beaching leg and the dog. Failed.



















Dog (Olive) makes up for not being special by being very sweet. Panope anchored in the distance.


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## Panope (Jul 18, 2014)

When I welded the perimeter of my pilot house lid (1/8" material, frames 1 foot apart, no other stringers) I ended up with two significant "hollows".

I deemed the stringers unnecessary for my strength needs (I can jump up and down on it without deforming) but in hindsight, longitudinal stingers probably would have helped this problem.

Steve










After sandblasting, I filled with an epoxy based filler.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

She's a beauty Steve. Jack Russell?
The boat looks fine too.
I think only you would see those hollows. Not good though.
But the dog is spot on.
No build up of paint. No bulging. No fairing with gallons of muck over lumpy paint.
Hell, with a deck like that you won't need deck shoes. There will not be a smooth spot on the deck.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

theboilerflue said:


> I don't know if doug and kay's boat building adventure is a very good example of the necessary work involved in building a steel boat - they opted for a lot of work, it's awesome that project don't get me wrong - they seem to really enjoy the building process and have chosen to do a lot of things that aren't exactly a "necessity". Great video blog those two have I enjoyed watching their progress I wish they weren't out in Oklahoma though or I'd go visit and lend a hand.
> 
> Smackdaddy what the f**k? have a look at the first few post on this thread. The first post was a question for information on steel boats, the second was a recommendation to contact brent swain for information as he is a wealth of practical information about steel boats. Then there was this guy, shank32095 who claimed Brent's boats to be poorly designed - without any examples as to why he said that. I mean people are entitled to their opinions but when you're just criticizing someone without any explanation as to why it becomes very clear that you just have personal problem with Brent and you're just criticizing what ever he says - this is not useful to anyone. This is especially not useful to someone who is just perusing this forum looking for information, in fact it's just tiring to sift through. Imagine if you were someone who was looking to buy a steel boat and looking for some information as to what to look for and you've got to weed through all this completely irrelevant text to get to anything useful. There are a lot of people who just read looking for useful info and don't post - generally thats what I do and mainly it's because of people who act like you have been on the thread - I think you feel threatened by Brent in some way and you need to deal with it. In other words grow up.
> Read through this thread again and take note of several people who have thanked Brent for his help or recommended him.
> ...


This is why I keep telling people, reject advice on steel boats from those with no experience in steel boats, especially those who have already admitted that they don't have the foggiest idea what the f**k they are talking about, when it comes to steel boats. They will only make your life more difficult.

One huge advantage of building your own boat is you will learn how to do all your own work, have the tools and knowledge to do it with, and not have to hire others, avoiding the pitfalls which those "useless as tits on a boar" cruisers like Smackdaddy describe in their blogs. You may even get a career out of it.

When Dr Millar was building Silas Crosby ,and had problems finding a welder ( I was gone cruising) he picked up the stinger and taught himself, then did a beautiful job. That let him do his own work later, eliminating reliance on others. A doctor, it was not a matter of money, just self reliance.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I agree with everything you said in that post BS. so why would you attack my wife?
I would really like a cogent answer to that question if we are to converse as adults here.
Waiting,,,,,,,, Maybe Smackers can dredge up the specific post of yours to refresh your memory.
The modulators deleted that post and gave you a "time out" as I recall, but Smacks may have saved it before they deleted it. It was choice.

I think it's great that people would build their own boats. I'd do it but alas, I have no skills with tools other than the modest pencil. I'd be a terrible boatbuilder. I'd stress over every little detail. I'd call myself names. Heck I might even call my wife names! I just don't have the confidence to try and build things. They could never meet my standard.

So, I chose a different path to get my ideas on the water. I'm sitting here tonight listening to a vintage LP of Jack Scott, Mono of course, I bought from a UK lp dealer for $80 and I have to think I did a pretty good job.

Here's the alu MARLIN in all it's glory. I like good design work.


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## Panope (Jul 18, 2014)

bobperry said:


> She's a beauty Steve. Jack Russell?
> The boat looks fine too.
> I think only you would see those hollows. Not good though.
> But the dog is spot on.
> ...


Yep, Jack Russel.

I considered leaving that lid unpainted with just the sandblasted surface for non-skid. Decided that it would look better painted (with non-skid particles sprinkled on) to match the rest of the decks and main cabin trunk.

Steve


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## harmonic (Sep 10, 2013)

I want that red yacht what a beauty one of yours bob?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Harmonic:
Thanks. That is MARLIN, built in the Netherlands and owned by a German family who cruises full time. It's a rocket and very comfortably laid out for a family of four. I believe the interior layout is posted on my web site. They did change the pilot house after I finished the design. Originally the pilot house was to be open aft.During the build the original owner decided to close in the aft end. Not my idea but I think a good idea.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Here is the layout for MARLIN:


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Brent Swain said:


> This is why I keep telling people, reject advice on steel boats from those with no experience in steel boats, especially those who have already admitted that they don't have the foggiest idea what the f**k they are talking about, when it comes to steel boats. They will only make your life more difficult.


Pretty much everything I know about steel boats I learned from Brent Swain.



Brent Swain said:


> One huge advantage of building your own boat is you will learn how to do all your own work, have the tools and knowledge to do it with, and not have to hire others, avoiding the pitfalls which those "useless as tits on a boar" cruisers like Smackdaddy describe in their blogs. You may even get a career out of it.


Brent, in light of your mission to _get people out cruising cheaply_, this statement makes absolutely no sense. True, the logic holds that if you build your own boat you _obviously_ know how to work on it and fix stuff - but at what cost? Not getting out there to cruise for 2-10 years (if ever) while you do so? And spending upwards of $70K to do it*?



> *Yachtworld ad for Viski:
> 
> 1995
> Length: 36'
> ...


The Viski guy is going to _lose_ more money than I paid for my boat! I spent $42K for a really nice 40' boat and was sailing the next day. And I've not even sunk yet.

Second, why in the hell would a person that wants to cruise in their own steel boat want a career in building more steel boats? They'd NEVER get off of land.

It seems that the person you're directing your message to has absolutely no boat knowledge at all and no real options in life (they need a career not a cruising lifestyle). Is that really your desired customer?

If you are genuine and true to your ideals, what you really need to be doing is ONLY pointing people to existing BS boats that are out there on the market. Stop encouraging people to rape the planet by building new steel boats. Encourage them to recycle - either by buying existing plastic or steel boats. Write a book about it! This gets them out sailing very quickly and affordably and helps the planet you claim to love. Win-win. I'd even buy that book!

Here are a couple of BS boats on the market - WAY cheaper than even my crappy Hunter!

Brent Swain boats for sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk

Seriously, one of the most positive things people have to say about your book is not really the boat-building part, but the other stuff like your autopilot, blocks, furler, windlass, water-maker, etc. Wouldn't it be cool if you could teach people how to do these things for _any_ boat - even plastic - not _just_ your own steel boat (because you can't help but always trash plastic boats)? I could respect that.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

That Viski boat looks OK. The interior looks like it was nicely done. That is a very low price, about half of what a "medium" condition Tayana 37 would sell for. This would be an excellent buy for someone intent on owning a steel boat.

Too bad there aren't any decent profile views of the 31'er. I suspect that being a 31' PH boat the profile is not it's best view. The interior looks ok. Those two shots of the hull, amidships are interesting. Not many fair lines there that I can see. That chine line wanders all over the place as does the garboard weld at the fin.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Wow I hadn't noticed that before. I thought these origami hulls were supposed to be perfectly fair.



















Oh well, it's under water.

You could also probably knock another $20K off the price because these lifelines are definitely not BS-Approved:










They look like my Hunter!


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

That is not "perfectly fair" by any standard. I don't know how hard it is to get a steel chine line fair. It may be beyond reasonable abilities and you just have to accept that level of unfairness in a steel boat like this. That's OK. But it does not work for my eye. I like fair and smooth lines. I draw them fair and smooth and by gum I want them built fair and smooth. And no reasonable amount of Bondo is going to fair those lumps out, especially along that chine line. I'll just have to stand back about 200 feet or take my glasses off.

But if that tolerance to fairness is consistent over the entire build then you can generally get away with it.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

shank32095 said:


> Certainly a wealth of knowledge you bring to the table there Captain.


Well I was really responding to the limited amount of information in the opening post.

I cruised for 7 years on an old steel boat.

I kept on top of the rust by diligently scraping applying Ospho and primer any time I spotted any. But steel boats die from the inside and there are places you just can not get to. *SO THEY RUST.*

I had one opportunity to test out how tough they are, I was sailing at night at about 6 knots when I hit something. It stopped the boat dead. I was very lucky not to be severly injured as I tobogganed across the cockpit down the companionway and into the salon. The front of the keel a piece of 2 inch thick wall tube was flattened for 7 inches. There was no other damage. A grp or wooden boat would almost certainly have suffered some internal damage. *SO THEY ARE TOUGH.*









On the topic of making a 'fair' hull on a chine boat one technique is to include a 'ribbon' chine. This is a strip in my case about 2 inches wide that separates the panels. It soften and strengthens the chine line. My first cruising boat was a Ryton 38 which was built using this system. many people thought it was a round bilge boat and compared to the other single chine boats I have seen it was more fair.

However I should point out that while I know little about the Ryton company and it is long gone I strongly suspect that they were very experienced in working steel and had both the experience and the equipment to put some 'shape' into steel sheets using the 'English" wheel or similar shaping kit. They were Geordies from the Tyneside shipyards.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

TQA:
I don't think anyone here doubts that steel boats are tough.
I had a similar collision, with a rock, at 6.5 knots on NIGHT RUNNER while racing. It brought the boat to a halt and everyone went flying except me. I was laying on the genoa on the foredeck staring up at the jib luff. I immediately went below to look at the keel bolts and amidships structure but there was no damage to be seen. We later found a "ding" in the leading edge of the lead keel big enough for a cantaloupe. Lead can be a good shock absorber.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Hi Bob 

Yes I agree that frequently grp boats get away with hitting something and sustaining no obvious damage. The attempts by Bavaria to break their boat is enlightening. 

But I have seen several grp boats that have lost their keels and portions of their bottom and interior structure after a hard grounding. They litter the Caribbean where I sail. 

I have also helped recover a steel boat that had been on a reef for 36 hrs and had been pounding for some of that time. It came off in one piece with no hull leaks, plenty of dents but it was not holed.

If you have to hit something hard mid ocean wouldn't you rather be in a steel boat? Even if it was one of Mr Swains.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

TQA:
"They litter the Caribbean where I sail. "
Funny, I didn't see any when I was there.

In the PNW we hit rocks generally. Rocks as big as Buicks. The ones that don't show up on the chart. Or, that's what everyone says. I spend a lot of my time prowling the boat yards. I have yet to see a boat that has lost its keel due to grounding. I am not saying it can't happen but it may not be as often as you would like us to think.

And no. I'd stay home before I went anywhere on a BS boat. 

My grp boats have sailed many circumnavigations and I have yet to have a keel fall off.I have about 6,000 of my designs sailing.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

TQA said:


> Well I was really responding to the limited amount of information in the opening post.
> 
> I cruised for 7 years on an old steel boat.
> 
> ...


Did you have adequate epoxy in side. If you did, you probably wouldn't have had inside corrosion problems. 
If your ribbon chine was cut from pipe, it would have been a radiused chine, with no more work than using flat bar.
Had you had a piece of solid shaft inside the leading edge pipe, it wouldn't have flattened. That is why I use solid shaft for the leading edges of my twin keels. For the single keel I use 6 inch sch 80 pipe. It has a half inch wall thickness. Even with molten lead poured inside, sch 40 will flatten if it hits anything.

It's sooooo easy to simply drop a length of solid shaft inside a leading edge pipe, and weld the top shut, eliminating the chance of it ever flattening!


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Panope said:


> Tried to find a single picture that shows the beaching leg and the dog. Failed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For single keelers, I have welded a 2 inch sch 40 stainless pipe socket, flush with the hull, with a stainless cap on top. This I tie into the hull with a plate. That makes the sheerleg much shorter, and largely self supporting. You can push them in from a dingy and tie them to a stanchion. A couple of flush welded stainless acorn nuts on the hull, 90 degrees to this, lets one bolt braces on, if you are staying longer than a single tide.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

[QUOTE
So for example Here are Bob's own words:

"I don't weld. My son Spike is an excellent welder, a true artist. He made a suit of armor. I don't need to weld because I don't build boats I design boats. Let me say that again because I think you need it repeated. I do not build boats. I am not a boat builder. I am a boat designer. I never claimed to be a boat builder. Once again just for you, I never claimed to be a boat builder.. I have about 6,000 boats on the water to my credit. These are boats I designed. I'll make this easy for you.
I do not build in wood.
I do not build in aluminum.
I do not build in steel.
I do not build in GRP.
I do not build in composite.
I am only a poor designer of yachts. (<--- oops! this could be taken out of context)
There, I think I made that clear.
Cheers,
Bob P."

[/QUOTE]
Anyone building a steel boat from scratch can save himself a huge amount of wasted time and money ,by choosing a designer who has actual, hands on experience in working with the material. Anyone who simply draws pictures, without understanding the material ,will put you to a huge amount of uneccessary work and expense, with no net gain, drastically undermining the cost/benefit ratio. Sure , you can build any shape in steel, at great expense in time, not necessarily for any practical benefit. Only hands on experience in working with the material can let you know what works easily and what doesn't
I remember a friend building a canoe stern steel 45 footer, designed by a world reknown designer of plastic boats. I fail to see the attractiveness of a canoe stern boat, with a stern which looks like a fat lady's ass, but some guys are attracted to ladys with fat asses. To each his own!
At any rate, the guy had 2 years into her, and had only the bare shell done, when I started a 36, in February that winter. They made a bet as to who would be launched first. The 36 I was building was started the beginning of February , 1982, launched in April, went for her first sail in May and headed south at fall of 82. People who were in Maple Bay at that time can confirm this. The other boat took several more years to finish, and it took several 45 gallon drums of fuller to fair her. Mine needed none.
Another guy I met in the same area, told me he had started a Roberts Spray .He said after 2 years, he had all the framing done , ready for plating. Then he calculated the huge amount of welding he would have to do to finish her. So he put this framework on a trailer, drove it to the dump, took the license plates off the trailer, and left her there . He said it was one of the best moves he ever made.
This is typical of boats designed by people who don't understand the material, or who have no hands on experience working with the material.
People with no hands on experience working in steel, are the definition of a "poor designer of yachts" in that material.

If your son were to build several steel yachts with his own hands, he could become a good designer of steel yachts. Not without the hands on experience , and many years of living aboard and full time cruising, tho.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

There you go again BS being snide. You do snide very well. You must feel inadequate or deficient in some way to constantly be on the attack. Why not leave the personal attacks out of it?

As for the 45' canoe sterned steel 45'er it sure is not mine. I have never designed such a craft.

Here is NIGHT RUNNER. We smacked a rock at over 6 knots one race. I was amazed we did not do any structural damage. The lead keel required some serious filling though.

NIGHT RUNNER has been sailed very hard for 33 years. It's not heavily built but it has won every race in the PNW at least once, rounded Cape Horn, was raced single handed to Hawaii and has proven a very much loved family cruising boat. By any reasonable standard NIGHT RUNNER is a tough old boat. Damn good looking too. I am in the process of doing a big blog entry on the history of NIGHT RUNNER. I'm going to publish most of the working drawings.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Several of my clients have told me that, living year round in BC, their steel boats are the most comfortable homes they have ever lived in. If yours is not , it can be. Usually all it takes is a lot of insulation, and a good, dry heat source. Don't underestimate the importance of these.
No , more ventilation is no substitute for insulation!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Bob - I see what you mean about sheer spring (or whatever it's called) and the heel. That photo of night runner compared to your drawing really shows the elegance of the sheer when its done right. Very cool.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Here's the interior layout of NIGHT RUNNER if you are interested. Note the offset companionway notched into the cabin trunk. Not a very good idea if you ever want a dodger. Originally NR had a diesel fired stove. That was the driest, warmest, most comfy boat I have ever raced or cruised on. But that stove was heavy and is now replaced by a modern model. Too bad, it was nice to go below after freezing your ass off and go into that warm cabin.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Smacks:
Thanks.
If you look carefully at the bow you can see where the sheer is beginning to "roll over" breaking away from the planar line. NR's bow is a bit on the full side in plan view and to keep the sheer planar would have required a big "swoop" in the bow. L.F. Herreshoff did not use planar sheers. Neither did Bill Garden.

This drawing is heard to read. It is drawn with 5H, 4H and 9H pencils. I need a very thin line for accuracy in my lines plans. But if you study it you can see the hull shape.

The funny thing about this drawing is that if you look really, really hard you can see the layout s of the girth measurements in bow and stern. This means I was calculating an IOR rating for NIGHT RUNNER when I designed it. That dates the boat. I'll point them out to you if you like but they are probably only interesting to boat design nerds like me.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Very cool. Definitely something I never knew.

Learning from Bob Perry...and he didn't even charge me $20!!!


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Hi Bob

Here are a couple of wrecks sans keel the first one is in Martinique the second in Antigua. I have others.










.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

If they had lost their keels, wouldn't they have inverted - with the growth/staining showing that? These look like they were just beached and beaten until they came apart? Bad anchoring?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

TQA:
Post them all, we want to see them. I don't think you will change anyone's mind though. I hate to bring reality into this discussion but you may want to consider the number of GRP boats cruising in the Caribbean and compare it to the number of steel boats cruising. It could very easily be 200 to 1. Maybe more.

I suppose I could go around photographing steel hulks rusting in backyards too. But that's not my style.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Brent Swain said:


> Anyone building a steel boat from scratch can save himself a huge amount of wasted time and money ,by choosing a designer who has actual, hands on experience in working with the material. Anyone who simply draws pictures, without understanding the material ,will put you to a huge amount of uneccessary work and expense, with no net gain, drastically undermining the cost/benefit ratio. Sure , you can build any shape in steel, at great expense in time, not necessarily for any practical benefit. Only hands on experience in working with the material can let you know what works easily and what doesn't


Brent

You design for beginners to build in their back yard. Bob designs for experienced yards to build. Quite a difference. Bob's designs are built by those experienced in whichever material they are built of.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

mitiempo said:


> Brent
> 
> You design for beginners to build in their back yard. Bob designs for experienced yards to build. Quite a difference. Bob's designs are built by those experienced in whichever material they are built of.


What's weird about that is that Brent's drawings offer virtually no detail - whereas, as you can see, Bob's offer a tremendous amount of detail.

Very little detail for beginner builders. Lots of details for professional builders. What's wrong with this picture?


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## Panope (Jul 18, 2014)

Brent Swain said:


> For single keelers, I have welded a 2 inch sch 40 stainless pipe socket, flush with the hull, with a stainless cap on top. This I tie into the hull with a plate. That makes the sheerleg much shorter, and largely self supporting. You can push them in from a dingy and tie them to a stanchion. A couple of flush welded stainless acorn nuts on the hull, 90 degrees to this, lets one bolt braces on, if you are staying longer than a single tide.


Brent, I think if I went to the trouble of creating a "hull socket" for a beaching leg, I would go all the way and make it so that leg could be foil shaped for increased upwind sailing performance.

And now that I am thinking about twin lifting daggerboards, is it typical to have the foils be asymetrical (flatter on one side like an airplane wing)? Or are they perhaps fitted in the socket with a few degrees of angle of incidence built in? This question might be better answered by Bob or ????

Steve


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Brent's drawings? I have not seen any design drawings from BS. He refuses to post them.

Ok I admit it. He has welding skills and he can weld together a boat. He can weld together a fine boat if that's your taste. I have NOOOOO problem with the BS approach. My problem is with BS and his attitude that "if you don't do it my way your are stupid". If I was dead broke and I wanted to build a boat to live on I'd go to BS. But I have to think that there may have been some grp used models that would have saved me a lot of money and TIME!

I love a well designed steel boat. I love well designed yachts built in pretty much any material.

I have a real problem when he insults my wife. Apparently this does not bother most of you. I'm not comfortable with his "small man syndrome"" perspective on life.

I'm not stupid.
I don't want to do it your way BS.
I like beautiful boats.

And I will never subscribe to TQA's "You are all going to die in your grp boats". Give me an f'ing break.

Pork ribs for dinner. I found a great recipe. The secret is soooo simple. You wrap the ribs, covered in BBQ rub, in *TWO* layers of alu foil ( no, do not have BS weld a thingy together for you. Don't eat anything that BS touches. He dives in dumpsters.)) *Two layers of foil sealed all the way around.* Bake at 350 for two hours. That's it. What's going on is that you are steaming the ribs. Take them out after two hours. Spread your favorite BBQ sauce over them and stand back and look like a hero. That's what I am doing tonight for my darling wife.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Panser:
Asym boards would be the best way to go but no angle of incidence. That would be tricky. Might require some,,,,,guessing? Go with angle of attack and some strong asym.

That is a beautiful boat you posted. Who ever designed that has "the eye".


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I was wondering, while I was cooking, that, if we are going to showcase charter boats in the Caribbean that have gone on the rocks it would be very useful to know EXACTLY or there abouts how many steel boats are available for charter in the Caribbean. I've spent time there. I have watched charterers. For the most part they are total hackers. I'm amazed that any boat can stand that kind of abuse. Once and a while on goes on the rocks and breaks up. It's a miracle it doesn't happen more. 

I watched a German couple almost kill each other one night as they tried over and over again to anchor their boat in a place where an idiot could anchor. "Oh island in the sun,,,please don't let Helga find the gun." It was sad.

It is NOT about the build material. Go ahead and push that argument but if you do I think you are,,,,,spare ribs? Chopped liver? Pig's trotters? I have to be very careful here. The "minders" are always ready to pounce. Thought police. I do not need them.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Before I go I will leave you with a very pleasant image. This is my beautiful granddaughter Violet discussing life with a friend. I'd love to be cranky but Violet makes me feel happy.


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## Panope (Jul 18, 2014)

Bob,

I am right with you on the "GRP - you're not gonna die" thing. But it was not always that way. I grew up (1970s - 80s) around metal boats and the prevailing perception of glass boats was very very negative. They were called Tupperware boats and to a 7 year old these kinds of influences were very powerful.

It was not until I was an adult that I started questioning what I was taught. I questioned it because no matter how fragile GRP boats were _supposed_ to be, everywhere around me were thousands of them being used in a variety of "heavy duty" situations.

For example, friends of mine were a commercial fishing family. For 30+ years they had one of those Bristol Bay Boats (stern picker gill-netter) of GRP. They worked that boat really hard year after year. They were not "gentle people". They beached the boat. They ran into stuff at night. That hull never gave them a lick of trouble. I am quite certain that if their hull was made of steel, they would have spent more time on maintenance. Now thier original Glass over plywood decks eventually rotted away, and they replaced them with unpainted, welded aluminum (and there you have my idea of the perfect no-maintenance boat).

Another event that got me (re)thinking was when an plain Jane 35 foot Sloop (no idea what it was because at the time I did not think that type of boat was worth acknowledging) was rammed into a dock under full forward power (drunk skipper). I watched the whole thing from about 20 feet away and for a very long time I was very confused by what I saw. That boat was supposed to shatter - it was made of glass!! But it did not shatter. In fact, absolutely nothing happened except for a mark on the gel coat.

Certainly, there have been some poorly designed/built GRP boats that have given the material an undeserved bad name.

Steve


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Steve:
I totally agree with you.
There are well built boats and not so well built boats.
To try and lump all of one type together is ignorant.
Delta built some hell for stout commercial fishing boats in grp. They made their business doing it. These boats saw the hardest of conditions possible. They survived. Today they are very successful building mega yachts in grp and alu. None in steel.

I look at a Rhodes 41, a Bounty class sloop, sitting at the dock today and I wonder, why are you still here? I mean, this is a 50 year old grp boat. You should be on one of TQA's reefs by now. But you are not.

I do not generalize.
Say that over and over.
Reality is hard to argue with.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Smack I have no idea why the two boats that I pictured sans keels remained upright, but both have significant floor damage which would have let in water.

In the case of the Antigua boat it looks like it hit the reef which removed the keel and the boat sledged across the reef into a shallow sandy gully. It is getting buried. The one in Martinique is a mystery.

Bob I don't think that every body in GRP boats are going to die. I am a liveaboard on a GRP boat. Not one of yours. In my years of cruising I have seen some GRP boats survive tremendous impacts but unfortunately not all.

The point that I have been trying to make is that steel boats are stronger than fiberglass ones. If it comes to the CRUNCH you want to be in steel.










Run down offshore by a ship. Does anyone honestly believe that a fibreglass boat would hve survived that impact.


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## Panope (Jul 18, 2014)

I made a couple of videos (2 or 3 years ago) of some "testing" that I conducted.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

That's awesome pano!! Here's another video I'd posted in the Pros and Cons thread basically testing the same thing (at about 1:07):


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

TQA said:


> Smack I have no idea why the two boats that I pictured sans keels remained upright, but both have significant floor damage which would have let in water.
> 
> In the case of the Antigua boat it looks like it hit the reef which removed the keel and the boat sledged across the reef into a shallow sandy gully. It is getting buried. The one in Martinique is a mystery.
> 
> ...


This one did okay...






Sometimes light is good.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

"If it comes to the CRUNCH you want to be in steel."
Yes TQA, as I said before, I don't think anyone here disputes that. And the next time I am asked to design a boat for the "crunch test" I'll be sure to make it steel. So far in the last 40 years I have not had that request.


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## Panope (Jul 18, 2014)

Part of the reason steel has such a great reputation (deservatively) for strength in boats of the smaller sizes - say 35 feet and under, is that it is virtually impossible to underbuild. 1/8" steel is about as thin as you can weld without distortion, so in the smaller boats you end up with perhaps more strength than is needed for normal use. Naturally, this means you probably won't win many races.

By the time you scale up to ships like the Titanic and the Costa Concordia, skins are so thin that they offer almost no puncture resistance from rock or large bergs.

Aluminum is a little easier to underbuild but still difficult. Panope (34 feet) is welded up from 3/16" material. This is about as thin as I would want below the waterline (for strength). However, I believe a really good welder could build my boat with 5/32" material. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there was a time (before carbon fiber) when many racing sailboats (fragile) were made of thin welded aluminum. 

GRP, on the other hand can be laid up as thin as builder chooses. 

Steve


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

smackdaddy said:


> Seriously, one of the most positive things people have to say about your book is not really the boat-building part, but the other stuff like your autopilot, blocks, furler, windlass, water-maker, etc. Wouldn't it be cool if you could teach people how to do these things for _any_ boat - even plastic - not _just_ your own steel boat (because you can't help but always trash plastic boats)? I could respect that.


NO. One of the most POSITIVE things about these boats is the Origami Method that allows you to pull a hull together, going from flat sheets to a tacked together hull in three days - which I did last December in the snow in short daylight hour days, decks and cabin a week later. Because of the method it's relly easy and comes out completely fair. As I said before I was discouraged by the conventional method of building all these fair frames and welding plates together - I had enough sense to know at the time that was well beyond my skill level.
The rest of the stuff is cool too and the skills you get buiding the hull allow you to build all the other stuff.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Boiler:
I am very happy it is working out well for you. I wish you all the best in finishing your project. How about some pics as you go along?

Steve:
Yes, there was a time in the early 70's when alu was a well respected material for one off race boats. Dick Carter's famous YDRA, the one tonner, was built by Abeking & Rasmussen in alu with 6 mm skins. Pretty hefty but it was a 16,000 lb. boat. S&S did many custom alu racers as did Mull and Frers. I had a beautiful 47' DE built by Paul Luke in alu.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

smackdaddy said:


> Wow I hadn't noticed that before. I thought these origami hulls were supposed to be perfectly fair.


What's not fare here? are you talking of that small dimple where the dart comes together? You compare that to any other homebuild steel sailboat that was plated in the traditional method, pay close attention to the places where the plates were welded together.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

theboilerflue said:


> What's not fare here? are you talking of that small dimple where the dart comes together? You compare that to any other homebuild steel sailboat that was plated in the traditional method, pay close attention to the places where the plates were welded together.


Something tells me you didn't keep your end of our bargain. I read through this thread and saw the few people praising BS' boats like you asked. Did you read through the Pros and Cons thread I linked you to? If you did, you'd know that BS assured Bob Perry that BS hulls were perfect:



> *Originally Posted by Brent Swain* View Post
> Bob
> Most of my steel hulls are as fair as any of yours, without the need for a drop of filler. Zero humps or bumps, Show me a fairer steel boat with zero filler. There are none.
> And you call me a liar? Where does that leave your credibility?





> *Originally Posted by Brent Swain* View Post
> They weigh about the same as framed boats but the true saving is in time and thus money, faireness greatly enhanced , zero filler needed.


As Brent says, it's all about credibility.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

bobperry said:


> TQA:
> Post them all, we want to see them. I don't think you will change anyone's mind though. I hate to bring reality into this discussion but you may want to consider the number of GRP boats cruising in the Caribbean and compare it to the number of steel boats cruising. It could very easily be 200 to 1. Maybe more.
> .


Really? do you not think that maybe this is a product of marketing and profit margins? Steel boats are not, or certainly weren't back when oil was cheap as lucrative a product to pump out by the dozens. How can you even say that knocking off the keel of a fiberglass boat doesn't happen? You look at any fiberglass boat repair book/used fiberglass buying guide and there will be a chapter about the keel bolts and the potential of the keel falling off. Is Don Casey's full of sh*t now too?

This is suppossed to be a thread about best steel boats


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

bobperry said:


> I watched a German couple almost kill each other one night as they tried over and over again to anchor their boat in a place where an idiot could anchor. "Oh island in the sun,,,please don't let Helga find the gun." It was sad.


That is by far my favorite thing to watch the yachties do, anchor again and again and again, here, in the summer - which usually has little to no wind and they could probably just tie to their crab trap and be totally fine for the night. Oh there they go pulling up the anchor up again, by hand, to move the boat over to "better holding ground". Yacht TV, unfourtunatly the season is short and I've got to wait till july for the next episode to come out.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

theboilerflue said:


> Really? do you not think that maybe this is a product of marketing and profit margins?


No - it's definitely not marketing that drives demand for plastic boats if they are really as dangerous as BS claims. People aren't that gullible.

And, if BS is to be believed regarding how incredibly cheap and easy his boats are to build - it's DEFINITELY not profit margin. Every manufacturer in the world would be pumping BS boats out in China for the $200K+ margins per boat ($50K to build and $250K for the sale of a "superior" 36' steel boat). That's HUGE money!

So it's got to be something else. Hmmm...


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Boiler, Boiler Boiler:
Please show me the exact quote, "How can you even say that knocking off the keel of a fiberglass boat doesn't happen? grp keels don't fall off". I mean the exact quote. If you cannot do that then stop putting words in my mouth. You are stooping to silly BS tactics where he makes up facts to bolster his argument. Stick to reality.

How many steel boats are available for charter in the Caribbean? Probably none.

Now to your fun question:
I think that "fair" is subjective. It should not be subjective and technically it is not. "Fair" means a smooth curve with no abrupt changes that would radically effect the "second moment", a mathematical term that measures the rate of change in a curve. I use second moments for all my fairing chores when I am designing a hull. My computer program provides graphic layout of second moments. But don't worry about second moments. I am confident that BS has no idea what they are. He's quite challenged on the technical side of yacht design. I don;t think you were around when BS proposed a limit of positive stability of 182 degrees. That was a good one.

So, let's let "fair" be subjective for the sake of the argument. I'll confine my comments to the chine weld line. To MY eye it's not fair. It wiggles and wanders. At one point it even kinks. Fair means a perfectly smooth shape. I think using your method that you get a very close to fair hull shape with the folded plates. It's steel, it likes to bend fair. The problem comes in when the hand of man gets involved and a chine line is cut and welded.

I'll say it again: If the entire build is to this fairness tolerance you probably won't even notice it. It's just the way it is and that's what contributes to giving these boats that home built, less than professional appearance. You wouldn't point to the front end of an old Land River and say, "The front end is sure boxy." The whole damn car is boxy so you don't even notice the boxiness of the front end.

For me this is not about right or wrong. It's about style and each individuals vision of what a "yacht" is. I am not making up rules. I love boats that reflect an integrity of style and that can be an old wood fishing boat or a modern steel tractor prop tug boat. I'm open to any style of building when it is done well. That's why I have encouraged Panope to get involved here.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

bobperry said:


> Boiler:
> I am very happy it is working out well for you. I wish you all the best in finishing your project. How about some pics as you go along?


Well the one we pulled together last winter is not mine but thanks, my project is still coming along just in a further along state, my friend doesn't get to go sailing yet in his boat.

I just re-built my running pole that I bent in half two winters ago in your neck of the woods - Screaming downwind going the fastest I've ever gone 12 knots, there was some current for sure but I had the stern sucked right down so that waves were coming in the scuppers. The scuppers are usually about 1 foot from the water in normal speeds. I was running wing and wind and probably shouldn't have been as the wind was a little too far of the port - when I came out a front of the entrance to the hood canal the wind shift was just too far off to port and during the broach it bent my 17' 2 1/2" schedule 40 pipe running pole into a big elbow. I'm going for 3" now.
It actually worked quite well bent - great leach tension, pulled it straight down, the real problem was that I had 4 feet of pipe plowing through the water. I made a mistake heaing through the canal into Port Townsend bay (those US red and green entrance lights are different than they have up here, or their definintion of what is an entrance and an exit is different) Luckliy, only going 8 or 9 knots still downwind at that point and I had lots of time to correct that, when I got into Port Townsend there was an aluminum power cat that had made the same mistake, although at a much greater speed and had gone right up on the beach completely clear of the high tide mark next to the canal.

So it's not my boat and I don't make a habit of posting pictures of other peoples boats on the internet. The builder of this one I believe you've corresponed with before, if not here than on the Origami forum - really it looks like every other BS36 in construction, grey shop primed steel in the shape of a boat.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

smackdaddy said:


> Something tells me you didn't keep your end of our bargain. I read through this thread and saw the few people praising BS' boats like you asked. Did you read through the Pros and Cons thread I linked you to? If you did, you'd know that BS assured Bob Perry that BS hulls were perfect:


Well I was a little daunted by the 800+ pages, the marketing one however I'll respond to, still a lot there.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

theboilerflue said:


> ...really it looks like every other BS36 in construction, grey shop primed steel in the shape of a boat.


Boiler - this is the best quote I've seen years. I like your style.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

bobperry said:


> TQA:
> "They litter the Caribbean where I sail. "
> Funny, I didn't see any when I was there.
> 
> In the PNW we hit rocks generally. Rocks as big as Buicks. The ones that don't show up on the chart. Or, that's what everyone says. I spend a lot of my time prowling the boat yards. I have yet to see a boat that has lost its keel due to grounding. I am not saying it can't happen but it may not be as often as you would like us to think.


Ok you're right, my mistake. I have seen a boat that had it's keel sheard off hitting a rock (well the underwater part of a small island really) off ten mile point (cadborro bay near victoria) the guy still lived on it afterwards it was just real tippy.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Yeah, 12 knots? Probably some current. Maybe 3 knots around that area. But even 9 knots of true boat speed is fast in that kind of boat. By "running pole" do you mean a "whisker pole"? You use a steel whisker pole? Boy, you are correct that diameter is what you need but I'd sure go for an alu pole. 4" alu would be quite stout for that boat. A bit overkill I think, even in alu. Not sure what wall thickness is appropriate.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

"...really it looks like every other BS36 in construction, grey shop primed steel in the shape of a boat."

Don't go getting technical on us.
Funny line.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

bobperry said:


> Yeah, 12 knots? Probably some current. Maybe 3 knots around that area. But even 9 knots of true boat speed is fast in that kind of boat. By "running pole" do you mean a "whisker pole"? You use a steel whisker pole? Boy, you are correct that diameter is what you need but I'd sure go for an alu pole. 4" alu would be quite stout for that boat. A bit overkill I think, even in alu. Not sure what wall thickness is appropriate.


Well I use it for running so I call it a running pole, whisker, running whatever. 
It's a pole attached to the front of the mast to hold the head sail out. It was an Aluminum (6061 hss) schedule 40 pipe 2 1/2" ID. I imagine one could look up exactly how much force is needed to bend something like this, it bent right in the middle. It's not one of those thin walled telescoping poles, I have the feeling that I'd fold one of those the first time I smashed it against my lower shrouds and put a dent in it. I'm aware that lighter and bigger diameter has a greater compression strength than the same weight of a thicker and smaller pipe but it's less resistant to denting and once dented the strenth would be compromised a lot.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

bobperry said:


> Now to your fun question:
> I think that "fair" is subjective.


That wasn't directed at what you said, it was directed at what that smackaddict said. So again you compare the fairness of a origami hull to one that was plated by an amateur home builder and you will see what the big difference is. A really skillful welder might be able to weld plates together without any sign of the joint in the final product but not me and not most people who have just picked up a welder in the last year. So if you take that in context of what I said - that the origami method is a big bonus because it produces a fair hull instead of one with the hungry dog look or the weld distrortion from welding to a bunch of frames. 
Again this is something that you Bob don't know anything about since you've never welded a plate together and don't know what it's like. I doubt smackface knows anything about welding either and since this is a thread about metal boats - why the hell are you commenting.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

theboilerflue said:


> That wasn't directed at what you said, it was directed at what that smackaddict said... Again this is something that you Bob don't know anything about since you've never welded a plate together and don't know what it's like. I doubt smackface knows anything about welding either and since this is a thread about metal boats - why the hell are you commenting.


Now boil - why do you feel the need to start getting mean?

My commenting on fairness above is simply showing you what Brent has claimed many times on SN (since you weren't around) in contrast to those photos and your question about fairness. How does that make me the bad guy?


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

theboilerflue said:


> ...since this is a thread about metal boats - why the hell are you commenting.


Is having built or owned a steel boat a requirement of admission to this thread? If so the bouncer somehow let me past without even so much as a tip or a wink.

I don't own a steel boat but I love talking about boats and may own one one day, so I read here. I posted here some information about steel boat rallies at the beginning of the thread and while I'll admit I'm no steel boat expert I felt I had something to contribute to the thread.

MedSailor


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

No I don't weld but I have been around boats and boat builders for a long time Boiler and I know the problems with welding plates and keeping them fair. But if you want to be mean go right ahead. We have grown used to it here with BS's constant personal attacks. They, his or yours mean nothing to me. I consider the your own personal problems. I'm pretty confident in what I know and not at all embarrassed about what I don't know. I can always learn. That's why I am here.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

MedSailor said:


> Is having built or owned a steel boat a requirement of admission to this thread? If so the bouncer somehow let me past without even so much as a tip or a wink.
> 
> I don't own a steel boat but I love talking about boats and may own one one day, so I read here. I posted here some information about steel boat rallies at the beginning of the thread and while I'll admit I'm no steel boat expert I felt I had something to contribute to the thread.
> 
> MedSailor


Someone commenting about something they don't know anything about doesn't help the conversation. And so someone saying on a thread title best metal boat that the homebuild origami method doesn't produce a fair hull compared to the alternative - which is a framed homebuilt boat is ********.

And this is not a boys club where you comment using all these inside jokes or what ever. For anyone reading this thread that hasn't been typing away at it for years this is really not helpful, that "Brent Swain is a wealth of information" comment at the begining is a perfect example of this, who is going to sort through all of that posters comments to see that in fact he was being sarcastic. I just think it's important to have some consideration of what others are reading and their un-jaded views.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

"And this is not a boys club where you comment using all these inside jokes or what ever."

So you are making the rules here now Boiler? I don't think so. People who know each other use "inside jokes". It's called communication. It's the way friends talk. There are no rules here other than those imposed by the "minders". 

I think you are dead wrong about the comment "BS is a wealth of information". I know he is and I fully acknowledge that. It's his attitude to things not BS that I object to. It's his personal attacks I object to. It's his juvenile personal attack on my wife I object to. It's his utter lack of respect for alternative life choices that I object to. Many of us are not attracted to the BS dumpster diver life style. I don't want to eat meat preserved in cooking oil. But knock yourself out if that's the life you choose. We should still be able to converse in a friendly manner. I think just loving boats is a common denominator and that's good enough for me.

When I say "fair" I mean fair as an absolute and not relative to the build method. Fair is fair regardless of the material. I have seen many unfair grp boats. I have seen unfair wood boats.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

theboilerflue said:


> Someone commenting about something they don't know anything about doesn't help the conversation. And so someone saying on a thread title best metal boat that the homebuild origami method doesn't produce a fair hull compared to the alternative - which is a framed homebuilt boat is ********.
> 
> And this is not a boys club where you comment using all these inside jokes or what ever. For anyone reading this thread that hasn't been typing away at it for years this is really not helpful, that "Brent Swain is a wealth of information" comment at the begining is a perfect example of this, who is going to sort through all of that posters comments to see that in fact he was being sarcastic. *I just think it's important to have some consideration of what others are reading* and their un-jaded views.


Boil - look, I'll completely drop the smart-assery for a moment and be straight with you...

I TOTALLY agree with the bold part of your post. The reason I keep at this like a freakin' bulldog is that I think it is critical for amateurs who are considering building a steel boat to get honest, accurate information about what they are getting into...not marketing hype.

If you will _*objectively*_ read through that post I put together of Brent's claims, I think you will absolutely see that things are not exactly has he typically paints them.

Your point about a home-built BS hull being much more fair than a home-built framed steel boat is absolutely correct. No one here would argue that. But you're using a home-built eye to judge what's fair and what's not. And that's perfectly fine. It's an expectation of quality that fits the product being discussed...a home-built boat.

The issue, as I showed you with Brent's posts above, is that _*he*_ claims his hulls are as perfect as one of Bob's boats. They're not. Anyone can see that. So why make such a claim - then add an insult onto it? This is the "inside joke" you're up against here - Brent's claims and insults.

As long as this is an honest discussion about metal sailboats, there won't be any inside jokes. Panope is providing very honest and fair input from what I see. There's no need for him to be somehow "superior".

If you want to spend your time defending Brent, that's fine too. But you really need to get the whole backstory so you'll know what you're in for. Otherwise, just talk about your own boat building process and I bet you'll get a tremendous amount of great feedback.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

theboilerflue said:


> Someone commenting about something they don't know anything about doesn't help the conversation. And so someone saying on a thread title best metal boat that the homebuild origami method doesn't produce a fair hull compared to the alternative - which is a framed homebuilt boat is ********.
> 
> And this is not a boys club where you comment using all these inside jokes or what ever. For anyone reading this thread that hasn't been typing away at it for years this is really not helpful, that "Brent Swain is a wealth of information" comment at the begining is a perfect example of this, who is going to sort through all of that posters comments to see that in fact he was being sarcastic. I just think it's important to have some consideration of what others are reading and their un-jaded views.


These rules you're making up are sure interesting... So even though bob has designed steel boats, they are something he knows nothing about? Okay... so Brent has never taken a design theory class, but he comments about boat design. Is that allowed by your rules?

That's quite the chip you have on your shoulder there. Again, owning a steel boat isn't a requisite for admission, or for contributing something useful. If I were to make statements about the best primer for steel (something I know nothing about) then yes, it wouldn't be helpful. But I DO know that there are some steel boat rallies around and they can be useful sources of information.

At least they can be so long as everybody with a steel boat doesn't have a huge chip on their shoulder....

MedSailor


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

When can we shoot trees again?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Jak:
There you go with those inside jokes!


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

Sorry, couldnt resist.Carry on!


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

You see Jak,,,you are the entire problem we have with these threads. Yes, you.
There we are insulting each other's wives and having a really good time and you,,,you have to bring up the sordid subject of shooting the trees.

Shame.

For me thread drift is life.
Thread drift is life.

Nothing always goes exactly how you would like it to go.
Adapt.


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

bobperry said:


> You see Jak,,,you are the entire problem we have with these threads. Yes, you.
> There we are insulting each other's wives and having a really good time and you,,,you have to bring up the sordid subject of shooting the trees.
> 
> Shame.
> ...


Im shamed, Ill try to repent, Ill wear a steel wool hairsuit and let it rust on me.Heres a pic of a steel boat to.


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## Bob142 (May 27, 2012)

In defense of Dumpster Diving ...Reduce.Reuse.Recycle. Most of you probably do some recycling...Re-use is one above...Repurpose or dumpster diving...

Here is something for all of the posters who proclaim that they work hard and therefore are justified in buying the newest and shiny stuff...


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

142:
We recycle like crazy in the PNW. I'm very big on it. I'm not into climbing into garbage cans. if that's your style,,,then knock yourself out. You will smell bad. Really bad. I don't like bad smells. Do not stand by me. Stand over there.

Stay focused.

Jak: damn now you are making me feel bad. How about a weird shirt from Penny's. Wash and wear type with matching tie. But you have to go to the mall in it.


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

bobperry said:


> 142:
> We recycle like crazy in the PNW. I'm very big on it. I'm not into climbing into garbage cans. if that's your style,,,then knock yourself out. You will smell bad. Really bad. I don't like bad smells. Do not stand by me. Stand over there.
> 
> Stay focused.
> ...


So long as its pure rayon, Heres me an tha missiz at the mall today...............


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

And to keep things balanced heres another steel boat.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Jak:
That's a great looking steel boat. Tanks.


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## tankersteve (Jun 22, 2007)

Both of those that Jak linked are very handsome sailboats. The first looks a bit broad of beam but may be the camera angle. However the hulls look very fair, and the second really is an eye-turner.

Tankersteve


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

That black hull is an Alan Payne design I think. That boat has a lot of miles on it. Very nice looking in an old fashioned way. Looks kind of S&S'y to me.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

My dad said that he saw quite a few steel boats during his circumavigation (1986 to 2000ish)... One of his friends were real glad to be in a steel boat when they were being shot at... 

"Bulletproof construction" takes on a whole new meaning..

or an old one...


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

bobperry said:


> That black hull is an Alan Payne design I think. That boat has a lot of miles on it. Very nice looking in an old fashioned way. Looks kind of S&S'y to me.


Yup, The black one,Skookum,Geoff Payne is Alan Paynes nephew.He built her in about 3 years working part time in Alaska then sailed over 100k in her.The Blue one is a Jean Knocker design, if Im not mistaken.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

MedSailor said:


> These rules you're making up are sure interesting... So even though bob has designed steel boats, they are something he knows nothing about? Okay... so Brent has never taken a design theory class, but he comments about boat design. Is that allowed by your rules?


I am not trying to make rules, I was just trying to point out that as someone just coming into this forum it's not very helpful to use all these things with hidden meanings that you'd only get if you've been painstakingly following all this banter.

This is not crazy. If you were to read post number 2 in the mindset of someone who doesn't follow all this chest pounding bullship you would take it on the level right? isn't the whole point of this forum to offer information to people, a lot of whom don't sign up and join in but just read. I'm just trying to point out that you could be doing things much better.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

And as requested here's my respons to your marketing thing smack, I'm not sure where you want it so I'll just paste it here and you can do waht ever you feel like.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

Alright So

BRENT SWAIN'S COMMENTS ARE IN BOLD TYPE

SMACKDADDY 'S ARE IN ITALICS

MINE ARE IN REGULAR TYPE


1. Build your BrentBoat THEN go cruising with what you have left.
2. Buy a relatively expensive (compared to similar fiberglass boats) used BrentBoat that someone is trying to unload and go cruising immediately.
3. Buy a well-equipped, cruise-ready fiberglass boat for far less and go cruising immediately with more money in your pocket (but, according to Brent, living with the daily panic of being struck down by aggressive Fukushima Debris, logs, reefs or rocks - or the annoyance of having to pay attention to where you're going).

To Start why are you comparing glass and steel boats, hitting rocks, logs and shipping containers is a concern held by many people, not just Brent Swain. Navigation in some parts of the world is dangerous and the likelihood of hitting something is very high, no matter how well you navigate ship happens and many people in fiberglass boats do avoid them. 
If you don't agree to this statement then you're just being argumentative for arguments sake or your ego and this conversation isn't going to go anywhere. The desire to have a strong hull that can take a pounding does exist. Comparing the price of a fiberglass boat to a steel boat would be like comparing a car to a truck, there is some comparison but in the end they do very different things. 

Brent often conflates the idea of "design" with the idea of "building" (hence, the numbers vs. experience angle) - so watch out for that. BUT, if you DO want to build your own BrentBoat, here's what you can expect (from Brent's own customers):

There were no comments here from any of Brent's “customers” just smackdaddy and Brent Swain.

1. You'll likely spend a good deal more than $35K for a fully equipped BrentBoat. This is after you've already spent several hundred more for his plans, books and DVDs. (Oh and that's just for the boat - you'll need to factor in the costs of the build area, the expensive tools you'll need, the electronics you'll want to add, the utilities, etc.). So, let's up that figure to somewhere a good bit beyond $50K (the cruising budget we mentioned above).

That's very deceiving and twisted by smackchild to force his point and his ego. Firstly by “several hundred” Smack means 350. 35K is the high estimate to get the boat in the water painted, insulated, with a rig, engine, and an interior (tools included). Maybe not all the fancy gizmos but a handheld GPS, and a cheap sounder runs under 500 bucks, batteries maybe 600. It doesn't really matter as all that stuff would be the same regardless if you were to get a run down used plastic boat or build one out of any material. The rent also would be the same for any boat build, although considering how fast one can get a Swain in the water you actually are saving money compared to a conventional frame steel boat or wood or glass if you wanted to build in glass these days, which seems too cost prohibitive to even consider. The tools are almost all the same for any material apart from the welder and cutting torch/plasma both of which can be bought used for under a grand. They are certainly the same if your were building a framed steel boat.
This has been my actually real world experience building a swain and my friend whose building one right now agrees on this as well.

2. You'll likely spend 3 years or more building this boat...before you can ever sail a single mile.

I spent a year and a half before I was in the water, a summer setting up the rig and was sailing after that.

3. When Brent talks about how "perfect" his boat is after 30 years (i.e. - low maintenance requirements, dirt cheap equipment, etc.)...here's what he means by "perfect":
Notice the chipped paint, the rust, etc. And keep this in mind when you read through his maintenance claims below.

Rough is OK with me, as it is with many that value function over looks You can keep your fancy immaculate yachtie sh*t as far away as possible please, I know as soon as it gets use hard it looks like sh*t. But to each their own.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Wide shallow sterned boats with super lean bows are very badly balanced hulls, hard to control downwind in a rough sea. They have no directional stability.
What about Vendee and VOR boats that have done a pretty good job of doing just this around the entire earth?

You mean with full crews pusjing it to the limit with as little cargo aboard and the concern leaning toward speed rather than comfort. Any boat with a big tubby stern, lots of boyancy is going to be hard to steer down waves. If you don't know that you're inexperianced in rough weather.


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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Catalina 27 is a very poor choice, a grossly unbalanced rudder which you can't leave for a second without her broaching off course. Very poorly built. There are far better choices, for cheap.
I had one of these C27s. We always had too much sail up - and she did indeed give us a heavy tiller. But that was when we had too much sail up.

I know someone who lost their rudder in a catalina 27 off northern california. It's pretty well acepted that fin keels with spade rudders are hard to steer in rough weather. - this again shows your ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Saw one with 50 fragile plastic thru hulls, mostly below the waterline, which could be easily broken with a slight kick, or a shifting of gear. A very fragile, minimumly built, "style over substance", type of boat.

I don't think its outragous to want to limit the amount of thru hulls in a boat, I've several friends who have closed up needless holes in the hull, cuts down the maintanance the amount of seacocks needed and limits the possible failures.

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Things simply don't break in a small steel boat, and they don't leak.
This indeed is a miracle for any boat anywhere in the world. Impressive.

Not really a miracle, no bolted on fitting so no holes that may work themselves loose, and no goo keepinf the water out just weld metal which is good for 60,000 psi.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I think the real "Comedian" is the super dense and gullible guy who tells you that commercially made "style over substance" type blocks at $30 each are your only option, or that such flimsy contraptions are actually stronger than 3/16th aluminum ones with solid sheaves, and 3/8th inch solid stainless pins. Or maybe he is the guy tryying to sell commercially made $30 flimsy blocks and can't compete with practicality, so doesnt want anyone to know of affordable alternatives.

My hand craked sewing machine has paid for itself many times over, one of the handiest machines one can have aboard. It lets you reinforce things well before they tear, adding many years to a sail. I wouldn't be without it.

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
1/8th inch plate would work for a boat that size, as would 1/4 inch pins. For a boat that size, 12 guage or even 14 guage would work.The difference between that and the weight of the coins in your pocket would be negligible. You could save far more weight by skipping breakfast and sailing bare assed.
Yes, there is a reason people use fancy pulleys. Promotion, advertising , glossy brochures, and hype.
A rich friend sailed from BC to New Zealand and back. He had expensive, comercially made blocks, with aluminumaluminium cheeks, with stainless straps over them . The corrosion betwen the two froze the expensive , "comerce "blocks up solid in less than a year . All aluminumaluminium blocks ( the $2 kind ) are open, and any corrosion falls out.
Without the stainless straps to react with, there is little corrosion. Mine are 29 years old, and after 6 Pacific Crossings, and 11 months a year cruising, are as good and functional as the day I made them( for under $2 each).
In racing circles "Overbuilt" means something which doesnt break regularly, reducing profits for those who make and promote them.
As you can see in this thread, I've offered to pay Brent $11+shipping for one of his $2 blocks so I can test it against a Garhauer (the test being exactly like he lays out below). He hasn't come through. But i'll keep trying.

I'll take your f**cking money, though not I'm not giving away my labour. 30 bucks should cover the block and shipping to the states and a case of over priced canadian beer. ($23) Email me and we'll work out how you'll get me the money.

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
My 1/4 inch galv wire halyard, which I put on in Tonga in 2003 is due for replacement after ten years of mostly full time cruising. I don't think I would have got that out of any other material

I saw it with my own eyes. What's the problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
This hatch can be made out of scrap aluminum for under $25 and is a far better hatch than commercialy made ones costing hundreds of dollars

I agree my hatch has never given me trouble, it's cheap, it's solid, one piece, except for the foam gasket which is cheap closed cell foam my floor mats and the stainless latch I built. I've replaced bomar hatches for customers that have failed which cost a couple hundred dollars. Whats the problem here – you really need to illistrate your point smacky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
They weigh about the same as framed boats but the true saving is in time and thus money, faireness greatly enhanced , zero filler needed. I find that if it looks dainty fragile and flimsy, it probably is. I refuse to design a boat dainty fragile and flimsy, the stakes are too high on ocean cruisers. Full time cruisers get the same rough treatment as workboats , and should thus be built more to workboat, funtional priorities. Experienced ocean cruisers are a lot more impressed by workboat priorities, than the dainty, flimsy, fragile "Yacht" look.

I agree, using your boat all the time is hard on things and they need to be strong and over built to take the abuse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Now, when I get a new mainsail, the first thing I do is remove the roach and battens, which are responsible for over 80% of sail repairs, which is why sailmakers come up with so many flimsy excuses for roaches and battens. It is a source of much income in the repair buisiness for them. Battens drastrically reduce the life expectancy of a cruising sail, and a good cruising boat should be designed to balance well without a roach on the main. Roaches and battens are a racing gimmick which should be left on racing boats. They have no place on a good offshore cruising boat.

Many of the BrentBoats you'll see in photographs have battens. Do his own customers listen to him?

Listen yes, Battens do cause a lot of wear on a sail, no sailmaker would say otherwise. I have a fully battened sail, that I got used that way. I like it but I know that I'll have to do some repair and re-enforcing of the battens – I'll do it myslef however. The roach did allow me to cut down my boom so that it can't hit me in the head (I'm tall) and still have the same sail area as my previous roachless sail just at the expense of having to do more sail repairs as the batten wear themselves on the lowers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I don'tdon't de anything, I just warn people of the pitfalls of following trendiness over logic, warnings I wish someone had given me in my youth. Beneteau's production is a testimony to the effect of mass advertising to the gullible masses, and to the gullibility of those masses, not to quality.
Nobody wants to be a gullible mass. But seriously?

Seriously, I think the “keeping up with the jones mentality” is very prevalent in our society and this insanely expensive yacht culture is not exempt from that. For me living on my boat is one of the cheapest ways to live around, for most boat owners it's a very expensive hobby and I think that people are motivated by some strange need to fit in to this ideal that is pesented to them that spending money and having a boat that looks good at the dock will raise their staus in society – or I don't really know what motivates people to spend most of their life working to get more stuff rather than enjoying what they already have. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Last time I left Tonga at the same time as a 28 ft aluminiun Bob Perry design. I took 57 days to BC, he took 99 days. You wouldn't do much better in any heavily loaded 31 footer, with all that the owner owns aboard.
Bob has no record of this boat. Brent can provide no evidence. See a trend?

Well do you honestly expect Brent to have documented evidence of some sailing trip from the 90s? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
My boats don'tdon't rust out,long as they follow the directions I give them. If they don'tdon't, then that is not my fault.

So the advice being paint the inside really well with coal tar and keep paint on the outside every once and a while. WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY SMACKY? I saw a BS36 for sale dirt cheap it was not painted on the inside and it was rusting out – this is waht happens when you don't paint it properly, what's the problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Most don't tie to docks, one is enroute from Cape horn to the Aleutians, several are finishing circumnavigations and several are leisurely cruising Mexico and the South Pacific, while others are cruising full time in BC waters, unlike the expensive plastic boats ,which leave their owners so broke that they have to tie the boat to a dock and spend years earning the money to pay for them. Do they sail faster? Not if you include the time peope spend working to pay for them, then pay the moorage, insurance, repairs, sails maintenance etc. while the guy in the more affordable Brentboat is out cruising and making miles. The guy in the so called "fast boat" will never sail enough miles to make up for the time he has wasted at the dock..

Most of the BrentBoats I've come across are for sale.

What Brentboats have you seen? why would you run into any of them? Are the ones you've seen online? You live on the east coast don't you? Most of the brentboats are in BC. Give some F**cking detail if you're trying to make a point you idiot. Currently in Desolation sound where I am right now there are there are 7 of them within a ten mile range, one still under construction that was started last winter. None are at the dock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I'm not saying mine is the right design for someone who wants to throw away a lot of money for an inferior product. In fact is is definitely the wrong boat for someone who wants to do that.
This is a very important point. And this is why it's so critical to understand where every penny of your cruising budget will go if you get into a BrentBoat. Yet, this is virtually impossible as there are no real numbers out there - and he won't provide any.

What do you want to know that hasn't already been posted? You already gave some numbers above. Where'd you get those from if they're not provided?

7-10k for the hull depending on fluctuaing metal prices
3-5k for stainless 
2-4k for consumables, welding rod, disks etc.
3k for paint
2k for foam
Rig, engine, launching cost, rent, would be all the same for any homebuilt sailboat regardless of design or material.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I only help the owner get the shell and steel work done. The kind of finish they do from that point on is up to them Those who have gone yachty have always regreted such a waste of time and money, which should have been spent on cruising, and things that matter.
So I suppose what he's saying here is that he'll help you through the easy stuff for the first few days - then you're on your own when it gets hard?

Brent “markets” a HOMEBUILT STEEL SAILBOAT not a sailboat that he builds for you. The pulling together of the hull is easy it's true, there are some tricks that Brent has learned pulling nearly 40 of them together that make it go a lot more smoothly, once all the intial fitting of the hull is done Brent's expertise are not really needed and it's just very basic steel work. Why are you condeming Brent for stepping back and letting the builder finish their own project that they chose to take on?
When I was building mine everytime Brent came into town he'd give me call, I'd go pick him up and take him over to the boat and he'd explain what needed to get done – for free, he hardly just abandons you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
The paint job on mmy current boat is 29 years old and the only maintenance I've done on it is touch up the chipoed parts, the rest is as good as the day I put it on. I do an houror two a year maintenace on my paint job. Any time tyo se rusting in th e middle iof aflat surface the paint was n ever thich k enouhg or th esateel not clean enough. I initially put 30 gallons of epoxy on my boat. The thicker the better. Too thin a paint job is the main cause of maintenace problems on steel boats, a problem which is easily avoided. To thin a paint job is often motivated by seeking the yachty look. Thick paint works better ,but usually does look rougher. Thats a matter of priorities.
See photos above.

Why do you insist that everybody wants to have this immaculateimaculate pristine boat. I work off of my boat, it's my shop, ut metal, chop firewood and fabricate all sorts of stuff – it's hard on things and I need a boat that can stand up to that kind of abuse. I don't have a boat with the intension of impressing somebody else so don't care how beat up it looks, it still works. Don't try and impress your stupid values on everyone else, have some f**king respect that other people value different things than you and maybe you'd get along better. How do you think you're plastic hunter would stand up to hot slag landing on the deck or a splitting maul slipping off the block and smashing the decks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
There is no way you can get a spade rudder as strong without a skeg, as you can with one. A rudder behind a skeg has a much higher stall angle. Even a partial skeg with a balanced bottom is much stronger. Puts the bending load on the rudder blade, rather than on a shaft with very highly loaded bearings.
Disregard all modern rudder design and engineering.

This shows your ignorance, something supported at both ends is going to be stronger than something supported at only one as it spreads the load.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
My boats sometimes go aground because they are not used as marina queens, and do a lot of cruising, sometimes in uncharted waters. Yes, some of their skippers are piss poor navigators. I don't choose my clients on that basis , neither do you.The first owner of a 36 was my demolition test pilot. Any other boat wouldn't have survived as long in his hands. Nothing proves a boat strength like a piss poor navigator- demolition test pilot. How they sail is out of my hands.
At the same time, he says safe navigation is not all that important below. So which is it?

Which is what? Lets examine this:

1.) a good solid boat is well tested by someone who hits a lot of stuff?
a. true
b. false

2.) When you've got a good solid boat that has been well tested by real life testing hitting stuff are you going to be so concerned that you avoid areas that may involve you hitting something or will you take the chance?
a. yes
b. no

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
People choose my designs for the freedom from worry about hitting anything, over going marginally faster, at the price of constant worry about hitting anything. With my first boat, I had to worry about such things .When I switched to steel, and drastically reduced such worries my enjoyment of cruising went up drastically, far more than any enjoyment which going marginally faster would have given me.
That is why my boats cruise so much, and don'tdon't cling to marinas, waiting for fair weatheiler days, or seasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
In 38 years with steel rudders, I havent had a rust problem. As long as your zinc is on and in good contact, it has to go first, before the rudder can start corroding. Outboard rudders can be easily removed, hung in a tree and painted , with no need or an expensive haulout.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Readers should know they have an alternative to super expensive boats , which you have to constantly worry about hitting anything with, deck leaks and gear pulling out of the decks, and have the option of a marginally slower boat, which is extremely worry free, on which nothing breaks . The choice is theirs. My clients choose the latter.
I guess you need to decide what's more important to you...cruising or body armor.

You obviously haven't done any cruising in rock strewn waters, or with dead heads in the water at night you should ask someone with a plastic boat that lives in BC how safe they feel underway at night. I've never worried about hitting a log. I had a friend who almost died in boundary pass in november from hitting some underwater log or something motoring in fine weather in a boat he was delivering for a friend without a dinghy, luckily some couple out for their first time ever on their boat they just bought saw his flares. He said after he heard the boom and looked in the hatch the cabin was half full of water and radio/battery was submerged. He was very lucky but it does happen, logs sink boats around here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I have black poly pipe on my shrouds which has been in the sun for 37 years and is as good as the day I put it on.
See photos above to see what "good as the day I put it in" can mean.

So not up to your yachtie standards? Does that mean it doesn't work and Brent advice isn't helpful to someone who doesn't have the same expensive tastes as you? What is the problem you have with this? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Having an outboard rudder has enabled me to build my self steering, far more effective than most horendously expensive models; mandatory on boat with inboard rudders, and my inside steering, for around $25.
This is a very, very good price for windvane steering. The question is, can YOU do it?

Yeah maybe, stainless is a littl pricier now than it was even five years ago, there's about 20 pounds of stainless in the self steering, some welding rods and grinding disks. I spent probably 50 bucks on mine, though it's hard to gauge as you just buy a bunch of scrap yard stainless when you're building one of these and use it thoughout the boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Owning a sailboat has been the most sound financial decision I have made in my entire life.
Expenses of owning my boat?
Moorage, zero. I stay anchored
Heating bills, zero. Woodstove eats for free.
Maintenance, less than $100 a year.
Diesel , under $200 a year.
We're now at $300/year for total cost of ownership. How does that match up with the other claims?

How dare you Brent, clearly you must spend more money somewhere, what about your your welding rods you gotta spend tons on that, and what about all that hot choclate you invite me ove for – that stuff's not free you know. I saw you, you bought a flashlight the other day that was like twelve dollars plus tax Brent. How come you haven't accounted for all your expenses, clearly you're just pulling the wool over our eyes.

Get off you f**cking high horse Smackdaddy. You can clearly see how much money Brent spends on his boat (in fact you use his cheapness to make a point earlier) and life in general and it works you just don't like it. So shut up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Such yachty absurdities such as a teak deck , flimsy teak hatches and skylights, and flimsy yachtie hardware, look pretty ugly after a bitt of rough use. I have seen such " decorative priority" boats leaving BC , looking immaculate, but by the time they get to New Zealand they look rough as hell, while the more practical, easier to maintain boats with workboat priorities can do the same trip, and still look immaculate at the end of the voyage. Your boats often contain such yachtie absurdities, mine, rarely .I don'tdon't recommend them, you don't discourage them.
See photos for the meaning of "immaculate".

Don't push your yachtie values onto other people, When Brent does this it includes an aspect of practicality. 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Two doctors I worked for said my $2 sheet blocks are something of which a multi millionaire couldn't buy a better one. My $100 roller furling is far more reliable than commercially made ones costing thousands of dollars, as is my windvane , anchor winch hatches , etc etc. The thinking and expereince which go into a boat do far more to determine how good a boat is, than the amount of money one throws at a boat.
I'm still waiting on the block.

Block for a case of beer. PM me.
The roller furling is trouble free and reliable and cost 100 bucks – at least that's been my experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Aesthetically pleasing is different for those who buy whatever consumerism is trying to sell them , from those who do their own thinking. I get much satisfaction in helping low income cruisers get cruising in boats they could never afford otherwise, better boats than the rich are sailing around in, boats which drastically reduce the risk to them and their children from colliding with Fukashima debris in the night.
He gets his satisfaction out of helping the low income cruiser. Yet he won't tell you what it will really cost for you to get cruising in one of his boats - even a hypothetical worst-case high-end that you could find ways to back off of? Why?

The costs have been outlined by many people on the internet since when I first looked when I started my boat. Brent also has detailed how much he spent on his boat when he built it and maintenance up till now. How would he know how much other people have spent on their own projects?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
My furler is covered by the sail so whats to see. They have fewer moving parts than a set of sail hanks. They don'tdon't fail either. My hatch design is far easier to get in any out of than the complex abortion which is the slidingch, and it is as waterproof as the lid on a pressure cooker.

True, it's much nicer having a real door on your boat raher than some stupid dropboards and this slider thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
You are right when you say that there is no way you could build any kind of boat for what they are charging for older fibreglass boats. I hear the Greeks are giving them away to avoid the taxes. However, I have several friends who bought fibreglass boats, who are upgrading to my boats, to boats which are built right from the outset, when they find that nothing on the market is what they want. They prefer boats which let them hit the odd rock, log or shipping container in the night, without a care in the world. One T-boned a rock in the Straits of Magellan . Shrug and carry on, no problem. You can read the story by doing a search under Silas Crosby. Many of my clients have thoroughly searched the used boat market, and concluded that the only way to get exactly what you want is to build it yourself..
At least we start to get some vague idea of cost. Fiberglass boats are undoubtedly the cheapest, fastest way to get out there and cruise. If, however, you ARE one who likes to hit the odd rock, log or shipping container at night - you really should try to get some accurate time and cost estimates to see what you're getting into.

You also try and keep warm and dry without shore power (even with) in a fiberglass boat around here and you'll see why a cheap used glass boat isn't all too great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
That is because they are the only boats which can take a head on, full throttle impact with ice, with zero dammage. Winston Bushnell did that in Dove 111 with no damage whatever. You can read about it in Geoge Hone's book "The NW Passage on ten dollars a day" or Len Shermans book "Arctic Oddysy', both available from Harbour Chandlery in Nanaimo BC.
In November 85 I was frozen in on Mansons Lagoon on Cortes Island in 5 inches of ice . I broke out by ramming it at full throttle for three days. The only damage was chipped paint on the stem and on the leading edges of the keels. Try that with a non metal boat.
In winter, I find the easiest way to clean my hull is to motor thru a quarter mile of ice.
In winter ,there is nothing warmer and drier than a metal hull with a good 1 1/2 inches of sprayfoam over everything.
It sounds like these boats are only meant for cold water sailing. I like flip-flops, but you might prefer ugs.

You're a pansy, and insulation works just as well in the heat as does the impact resistance of steel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
The steel for the basic shell of my 36 is around
$9k. Try buy the resin and fibreglass materials to build a hull, decks, cabin, wheelhouse, cockpit , keel, rudder, and skeg for a 36 ft fibreglas shell for that much! The left over scraps, around 4%, make up your anchors, woodstove etc. Your cleats, instead of costing $40 each from a ship swindlers cost $1.80 a pound from the scrapyard, and once welded down with a dollars worth of rod, will never work loose or leak. Ditto your self steering, anchor winch, fittings, etc etc
Make sure your build site is near a scrapyard with boat stuff.

Good advice, though the “boat stuff” is not so crucial. Mostly you need plate, pipe angle and rod – just regular stuff you find near any industrial area where they recycle scrap metal. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
How many fibreglass boats in the same weigh range as mine have survived 16 days pounding on a Baja leeshore in up to 12 ft surf? Mine has. How many have survived pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef and been dragged back across it with no damage? Mine has. If your calculations say otherwise ,then your calculations are obviously wrong, and clearly missing a factor..
The logic in owning a steel boat is in not having to worry about hitting Fukashima debris in the night and losing your life and that of your crew and kids in the night . Had the Sleavin family been in a steel boat ,none would have died . Discouraging people from the wisdom of choosing the greatly enhanced safety of a steel hull for offshore cruising, is life threateningly irresponsible.

The boat on the Fijian reef that he is claiming as "Mine" is Nothin' Wong - yet he reverses himself below and says it's NOT his when talking about Clive, the owner. Maybe part of this is the design vs. construction argument (if he helps build it it's "his" - when it's convenient - even if he didn't design it). But you wouldn't know it unless you were paying close attention to what he says.

Nothing Wong was adapted from the lines of a chinese junk by Brent so it could be folded origami style, and I believe Brent pulled the hull together though didn't do all the welding. So Brent claiming that one of his boats - ie. one built in the same controvesial origami method, withstood pounding on a reef isn't odd or a matter of convience. Brent just hates junks and Clive had to try really hard to get Brent to do it for him, it's all in his Clive's book “No Fixed Address”. Clive made a deal with Brent to sell and get a good price for his Brent's previous boat, which he did and Brent held up his end of the bargain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Many, including myself, pay far less attention to the odd rock ,than we would in a fragile plastic or wooden boat, which couldn't survive a collision with a rock, without serious hull dammage. We don'tdon't sail in rockpiles and uncharted waters, in stark fear. If we hit a rock we shrug and carry on, no wories.. Some have hit rocks at three knots some at 6 or more and everything in between, with no rdamage except a tiny paint chip.
This is the BS version of seamanship. It's a rare discipline.

Call Desolation Sound Yacht Charters and ask them where they allow their customers to take their charter boats to and where they don't, the broughton arcipeligo is one place I know they don't allow. There are lots of places where plastic yachts just don't go bacause the risks are too high of serious damage. In fact look at newauktu rapids on youtube it's something else, would you bring your hunter through there? A fellow brent boater just came back from going up seymour inlet there.
And this is not a brentboat critic this is a metal vs plastic argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Roughly 200 of my boats have been built without frames. None has ever failed at sea. They have survived everything from 16 days pounding in 8 to 12 ft seas on the west coast of Baja and being pulled off thru such surf ,lifted and dropped 12 feet onto hard sand every wave for 1/4 mile with no damage, pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf and pulled off thru it in big surf, again with no visible dammage except the paint job gone, a single season passage thru the NW passage, again with zero damage.
200 might have been started but there seem that there are very, very few of them out there actually cruising.

Sorry how do you know that? Lets see some numbers, arsshole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I was just given another SSB- Ham radio for free, my second freebe ham radio . I sailed many years without radar, never had a fab all, my wood stove cost me $50 for stainless .I have never had a chartplotter, th efirst diesel for my current boat cost me $1,000. I have never suggested that anyone can buy one of my boats cheap and get al the work and resourcefuillness the owner put in for free. One can build and equip their own brentboat for a fraction the cost of having one built. Do you work for free? No? Then don'tdon't expect others to.
This is important when you're figuring costs. If you want to be below that $50K-plus total, you'll need to hit the dumpsters, scrap yards, and surplus shops, and try to score lots of free stuff. This, of course, will affect the time side of your plan (adding a few additional years before you can sail), but you WILL save money. You'll just be really old when you finish.

NO, I spent 25-35k on my boat and was sailing long before I spent all that, I was 22 when I started the project and 24 when I went for the first sail, and am 30 now. I scrounged and hunted for good deals and made every peice of gear except the engine, sheet winches and the sails. Stop making wild unfounded acusations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
When you ask for a price breakdown on building my boats, you are asuming that my clients are incredibly stupid enough to buy everything new, at retail prices. They are definitely not that stupid. Most are far more practical and resourceful that that ,unlike those who foolishly assume that they are as dense as the average urban consumer, an extreme insult to their intelligence and resourcefulness. A friend was given an old boat, rotten, with a good mast, rig sails, winches , anchors anchor rodes, runing rigging ,etc etc. a freebe. How many more price zeros can a resouceful home builder put on your proposed list? There is no predicting what kind of deals a resourcful home builder will come up with, so such a list is only valid for the super dense, urban consumerism disciple. Those kind of halfwits are not amoung my clients.
I guess he's telling you, interested customer, that budgets don't matter? You'll be fine as long as you're not stupid enough to pay retail? What do you think? And before you answer, remember he doesn't want you to be a gullible mass and just believe what the yacht designers and builders of today simply tell you.

I guess I could of kept a meticulous list of everything I bought for the boat but I didn't worry about it so that I could prove you wrong. How about this: my total yearly income is about 10-12k a year some years way less, this year I've made about 7k there was a year, maybe 2010 I made 3k but we'll just go with 12k x 8 years that's 96k plus the original 15k I had in savings is 111k absolute maxium total living expenses. How much do you think went into the boat and how much for food and gas and the two “vacations” to the east coast I when on. 




Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
When I started my current 31 in 84 , I had $4,000 to my name ,total. When I launched her 30 day later ,I had $40. People at Newcastle marina at the time including Gerald, Evan and Winston can afirm the build to launching time. From there to sailing and living aboard, minus my cost of living, was $2,000 left for the boat.Mainsail Sig Jantzen sold me for $100 the awning I made my jib out of cost me $80 , interior panneling freebe, dito the 3/4 and 3/8th plywood.
You need to decide if you can do this on your boat.

Oh look smackdaddy specific costs that brent has given you, I thought you said he never gave these.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
These are actual experiences, not abstract calculations, which have far less relevance, unless you are ready to tell NASA that they are wasting their time on testing gear to destruction, as you can give them far more accurate calculations than reality, on your computer. Perhaps you can save Ralph Nader a lot of product testing expenses, by telling him that he need only read the price tag on any item to find how good it is, or simply double the price on anything, to double the quality automatically.
I'm still waiting for one of his blocks so I can go all NASA on it.

Block for beer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I don't need calculations to know that a 4 inch sch 40 stailnless pipe welded in to the deck, and a plate ten inches below it ,welded to the hull is stronger than a bolted down pot metal cleat.I don'tdon't need any calculations to know that a half inch stainless rod chock, fully welded into the steel bulwark is stronger than a bolted down "yachtie" chock on a teak rail. I donty need calculations tow that a 34 inch high, solid stainless sch 40 pipe rail is safer than knee high ""yachtie" plastic coated rails, the stanchions made out of something slightly thicker than stainless tinfoil. I don't need calculations to realise that an on epiece aluminumaluminium hatch is more waterproof, easier to use, and and tougher than a decorative teak sliding hatch and dropboards, a hairbrained arrangement. I don'tdon't need calculations to know that hands on building and cruising experience over 40 years produces a far better and more practical boat than calculatuions made by the best comnpruter whiz with minimal if any low budget ocean cruising expereince, off the beaten path. I don'tdon't need calculations to look at a 2x4 alongside a 4x4 and figure out which is the strongest.I don'tdon't need calculations to se that 3/16th aluminum block cheeks are stronger than plastic ones.I don't calculations to see that the parts which make up a $30 block can be easily in minutes ,out of less than $2 worth of mater
Yes...the blocks.

Block for beer, getting thirsty with all this typing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Check for the books 'Around the World on Viski" by Don Shore, " Arctic Odyssey " by Len Sherman. "Northwest Passage on Ten Dollars a Day " by George Hone, and "No Fixed Address"by Clive Hamman for substantiation, unless you consider all these people and their crews liars, as determined by armchair experts who were not there, but can tell by their telepathic powers what really did or did not happen.
Nothing on the Don Shore book. $20 for the Len Sherman book (10 times more than a BrentBlock). And as for "No Fixed Address"by Clive Hamman, $10 - and this is the guy Brent called a drunk? I'd rather have the block and save some coin for cruising.

Really is that why you've blow nearly a grand having someone detail your hunter for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
A 303 British will shoot thru 23 inches of douglas fir, weight 69 lbs per sq ft, dry, much heavier wet.. You can see that stump in Von Donop inlet, just west of the lagoon. It will barely shoot thru 3/8th inch mild steel plate, and only if solidly supported, weight 15 lbs per sq foot. Or, if you have a friendfreind with a 303 or 308, same energy, you can try it yourself. And you say the wood is stronger? Now thats making stuff up! That takes a bit of self delusion to believe.
Haven't tried ballistics on Fibreglass .
A yacht designer doing extensive, real life testing.

YES YES...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
The biggest hurdles most wanabe cruisers face are time and money, which most designers ignore completely.
Still trying to figure out the actual time and money requirements (worst-case) for one of Brent's boats. So far he's ignoring the question completely.

Bull Brent has told you how long it took to build his boat and expenses as have I. How would either of us know what it took for other people? ask them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Smackdaddys credibility?
ZERO!
Now THIS one is COMPLETELY bogus!

Why not? Let us here of your amazing credentials Smackdaddy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
If my clients wanted a fibreglass boat, they would have bought a fibreglas boat . Many have, then decided to upgrade to steel. It is no secret to anyone sniffing around boats, that they are available for a fraction the cost of materials, in any size shape and a huge variety of designs. Relatively good plastic boats are a dime a dozen.
Again, this is great advice as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Good steel boats are rare around here. For anyone wanting one which doesn't take forever to build , one which uses the most modern methods, I have no competition. Most of my boats are 3/16th hull plate 1/8th decks, cabin, cockpit, and wheelhouse, 1/4 inch keel sides, half inch leading edges, and half inch bottomplate, welded both sides, cold galvanized wheelabraded and primed, 5 coats of epoxy tar on the outside, three coats of epoxy tar inside, sprayfoamed , and all outside corners trimed with stainless, reducing maintenance by over 80%
You just wont find a commercially built boat around here built to those standards. If anyone did , it would be priced far beyond the means of most cruisers. For a home builder it means a bit of extra time and expense, their own time. For a commercial builder, fully welded, a good paint job inside and out, stainless trim, extra steel thickness in important areas, etc, would mean bankrupcy, and no credit given to him by customers, who have no comprehension of the importance of such matters.
If these boats are rare, how does that square with the 200 boats built claim above? I guess you can see why Brent has no competition as he claimed earlier.

200 good steel boats out of several thousand other boats around here = RARE you dumbas*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I only helped Clive get the shell of Nuthin Wong together,from an old Chinese design he gave me, not my design, for a trade, the rest was his department, not mine. Nuthin Wong just spent 4 1/2 months on a reef in Panama, pounded by ocean swells, zero hull damage. How long would one of to your dainty little plastic things have lasted in those conditions.
Note that Brent now says Clive’s boat ISN'T his - yet this is one of the main examples he uses for how strong “his boats” are.
Which is it?

See above, not his design but the integrity of the hull is due to Brent's construction method not the shape. Are you really that dumb not to see the difference here?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Bear in mind that this is advice from someone who has never built a boat never cruised offshore...
Remember, Clive has as much or more cruising experience in a steel boat than Brent does. Who are you going to believe?

How is that? Brent has been cruising since he was in his early twenties and is in his sixties now, Clive launched Nothin Wong in the 90s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I launched my 31 a month after the steel arrived in 84. The folks at Newcastle marina can confirm that. Winston Bushnell can confirm that.
I had $4,000 to my name, total when I ordered the steel, then $40 when I launched her. Then I made another $2,000 to detail rig and get her livable, by october the same year after having puled Uller and Moon Raven together in June of that year. The folks on Cortes Island can confirm that.
These figures are ~30 years old. They have absolutely no relevance to today...unless you think you can do this too.
So what do you want Brent to do extrapolate and adjust for inflation and availability? You have my figures and others that are more current.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I let people who want to build a steel boat, find a site buy the materials acquire the tools then hire me for an hourly wage plus expenses, and I help them get the basic shell to a point where they can handle the rest.
Your first 3 steps: find a build site, spends thousands on materials, and “acquire tools”...cost: tens of thousands...plus $350 for the plans, $54 for the DVS, and $20 for the book. I’d say the total to this point is easily nearing the $34K you’d pay Bob Perry for a set of plans...and you STILL haven't even STARTED your BrentBoat.

Build site = same as any other homebuilt boat
tools = welder 300 bucks for a used buzzbox, oxy-acetylene 300 bucks, 500 bucks for grinders, drill, hand tools etc most of which you'd need in any build project or just to maintain any boat. NOT TENS OF THOUSANDS

Brent is temporarily banned for insulting Bob Perry's wife...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Have you guys seen this guys wife? Aesthetics?
No arguing with the weight given by a government highway scale.
Bedtime. Getin dark, too dark to see.
This definitely doesn't square with A.D.'s letter on Latitude 38 when he claims this:

Seriously? Do you have that fragile of an ego?

Quote:
I guess it's no surprise that he has been banned from several boatbuilding sites. Why? Because he challenges the status quo. And because he advocates a simple, inexpensive approach to boating while eschewing the "just throw money at it and pay experts" approach advocated by the advertising sponsors of the boating media.
This had nothing to do with status quo or greed. Sailors don't insult other sailors' family. Ever. Yet Brent does, and is banned for it - and you defend him by blaming the forum? Classy.

Oh Come on somebody had to go crying to the moderators, you F*uking pansies! Suck it up. Oh no, my wife she'll be heart broken boo hoo hoo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I sincerely apologize to Bobs wife, for involving someone who is not involved in any way. After Bobs very personal insults to me and my work, I guess I didn't see the part where he and others are allowed to insult anyone they please with impunity, and their targets are nor allowed to respond in kind. I had no business involving an innocent third party. If you go back you will find my responses are just that, responses to personal insults, first hurled at me.
"I apologize for insulting a sailor’s wife by calling her fat and ugly. But it’s his fault for making me do it."

I'm not going to defend Brent, just his designs. But I will laugh and laugh and laugh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Bob, a friend just bought one of your boats . Nice looking boat. Could you explain the logic in stanchions so short, that all they can hope to accomplish is to make sure you hit the water head first instead if feet first? If "yachtiness" prevails , they will have on high visibility yellow boots, to maker sure you can see their feet, when they are up to their necks in murky water.
How very yotty!
Brent's stanchions are only 34" tall. That's still 2" below what's considered a safe handrail height around the world. So be careful on a BrentBoat.

Wrong again I just went and measured mine they are 35 3/4” off the deck, Brent installed those. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Any cruising boat designer strives to make his own designs the perfect boat based on his own experience ( or lack of it)and that of his clients, and their feedback over may years . That is what I have tried to do . So obviously, my 36 would be my first choice for a couple.
Wait - don’t you singlehand?

And Brent has a 31' and for a couple a 36' is good. What is so hard to understand.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

well the typeface didn't work out unfoutunatly


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

theboilerflue said:


> well the typeface didn't work out unfoutunatly


You also need to learn how to use the 'quote' button at the bottom of each post if you want to make it clear what's a quote and what's a comment....

Also, it's long odds that anyone is going the read all of such a loooonnnnggg post...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Okay - boil, I'm impressed. Thanks for taking the time. I'll try to weed out your comments and respond to them...for what it's worth.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

Faster said:


> You also need to learn how to use the 'quote' button at the bottom of each post if you want to make it clear what's a quote and what's a comment....


I didn't realise I wasn't using the quote thing wrong. I only get this stuff when I come to check my mail and am not constantly checking it, things get muddled. I apologise for the long post, please feel free to do what ever you want with it, move it somewhere, whatever.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

(Brent in blue. Me in red. You in black.)



theboilerflue said:


> To Start why are you comparing glass and steel boats


Simple. Brent is ALWAYS comparing glass and steel boats. Maybe you should ask him this question.



theboilerflue said:


> ..hitting rocks, logs and shipping containers is a concern held by many people, not just Brent Swain. Navigation in some parts of the world is dangerous and the likelihood of hitting something is very high, no matter how well you navigate ship happens and many *people in fiberglass boats do avoid them*.
> If you don't agree to this statement then you're just being argumentative for arguments sake or your ego and this conversation isn't going to go anywhere. The desire to have a strong hull that can take a pounding does exist.


Of course I agree that hitting stuff is a concern. But there are two ways to solve that problem. Brent's solution is to have a steel boat - _so you can go ahead and hit the stuff._ A better solution, regardless of hull material, is to do exactly what you say above in bold - avoid the stuff. The majority of sailors out there are able to do this.

As has been shown above and in many other places, plastic can handle a good deal of abuse if it's done well. No, it's not steel - but it's still definitely a "strong hull" as you say. So you just have to decide on the trade-off you want. Neither is intrinsically superior across the board.



theboilerflue said:


> Comparing the price of a fiberglass boat to a steel boat would be like comparing a car to a truck, there is some comparison but in the end they do very different things.


Agreed. My point is directed at Brent's claims as to what that cost is. He consistently undershoots the cost of building a steel boat by tens of thousands. Additionally, he claims they hold their value - when every one of his boats on the market clearly show that NOT to be the case. That's just not being honest - and is the reason for the comparison. Otherwise it makes it seem that steel boats are WAY cheaper than even used plastic sailboats that are ready to cruise. That's not at all the case.

Will you be able to FINISH your boat for under $20K?



theboilerflue said:


> There were no comments here from any of Brent's "customers" just smackdaddy and Brent Swain.


Actually, look at the various forums and blogs, including the origamiboats group on yahoo for cost information. These figures ARE from his customers - I'm not making them up. They were just not posted here.



theboilerflue said:


> 1. You'll likely spend a good deal more than $35K for a fully equipped BrentBoat. This is after you've already spent several hundred more for his plans, books and DVDs. (Oh and that's just for the boat - you'll need to factor in the costs of the build area, the expensive tools you'll need, the electronics you'll want to add, the utilities, etc.). So, let's up that figure to somewhere a good bit beyond $50K (the cruising budget we mentioned above).
> 
> That's very deceiving and twisted by smackchild to force his point and his ego. Firstly by "several hundred" Smack means 350. 35K is the high estimate to get the boat in the water painted, insulated, with a rig, engine, and an interior (tools included). Maybe not all the fancy gizmos but a handheld GPS, and a cheap sounder runs under 500 bucks, batteries maybe 600. It doesn't really matter as all that stuff would be the same regardless if you were to get a run down used plastic boat or build one out of any material. The rent also would be the same for any boat build, although considering how fast one can get a Swain in the water you actually are saving money compared to a conventional frame steel boat or wood or glass if you wanted to build in glass these days, which seems too cost prohibitive to even consider. The tools are almost all the same for any material apart from the welder and cutting torch/plasma both of which can be bought used for under a grand. They are certainly the same if your were building a framed steel boat.
> This has been my actually real world experience building a swain and my friend whose building one right now agrees on this as well.


This is good info. So my numbers were pretty accurate - for a _*fully equipped*_ boat. But, remember, I've NEVER advocated building a plastic boat. I've ALWAYS advocated buying a used one (which gets you out on the water FAR faster for roughly the same cost or less) - or buying a used BS boat if you have to have steel (which also gets you out on the water FAR faster...and FAR cheaper because the original builder is the one who will take a bath on the costs). If cruising is what you want to do - either of these make FAR more sense than building.



theboilerflue said:


> _2. You'll likely spend 3 years or more building this boat...before you can ever sail a single mile._
> 
> I spent a year and a half before I was in the water, a summer setting up the rig and was sailing after that.


Okay - that's almost 2 years. Good job. Is the interior finished out enough to go full-time cruising? If not, how long do you think it will take you to have her completed?



theboilerflue said:


> _3. When Brent talks about how "perfect" his boat is after 30 years (i.e. - low maintenance requirements, dirt cheap equipment, etc.)...here's what he means by "perfect":
> Notice the chipped paint, the rust, etc. And keep this in mind when you read through his maintenance claims below._
> 
> Rough is OK with me, as it is with many that value function over looks You can keep your fancy immaculate yachtie sh*t as far away as possible please, I know as soon as it gets use hard it looks like sh*t. But to each their own.


Rough is okay with me too. And I think rough is okay with virtually anyone around here as long as that's what's being discussed. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. But rough is _obviously_ not "perfect" as Brent always claims.



theboilerflue said:


> Quote:
> _Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
> Wide shallow sterned boats with super lean bows are very badly balanced hulls, hard to control downwind in a rough sea. They have no directional stability._
> 
> ...


Do they have _*"no directional stability"*_ as Brent claims? If so, why do they keep designing and racing them? I guarantee you they have WAY more experience in rough weather than any of us on these forums. I tend to believe them over Brent. You believe what you want.



theboilerflue said:


> Quote:
> _Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
> Catalina 27 is a very poor choice, a grossly unbalanced rudder which you can't leave for a second without her broaching off course. Very poorly built. There are far better choices, for cheap._
> 
> ...


Maybe I am ignorant. But I know for a fact that there are a hell of a lot of boats out there with fin keel and spade rudders that are doing just fine.



theboilerflue said:


> Quote:
> _Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
> Saw one with 50 fragile plastic thru hulls, mostly below the waterline, which could be easily broken with a slight kick, or a shifting of gear. A very fragile, minimumly built, "style over substance", type of boat._
> 
> I don't think its outragous to want to limit the amount of thru hulls in a boat, I've several friends who have closed up needless holes in the hull, cuts down the maintanance the amount of seacocks needed and limits the possible failures.


I don't either. I too agree that it makes perfect sense to reduce the number of holes in your boat. But I certainly don't believe that modern thru-hulls can "be easily broken with a slight kick" as Brent claims. Do you?



theboilerflue said:


> Quote:
> _Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
> Things simply don't break in a small steel boat, and they don't leak._
> 
> ...


So NOTHING is going to break on your boat...ever?



theboilerflue said:


> _Quote:
> Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
> 1/8th inch plate would work for a boat that size, as would 1/4 inch pins. For a boat that size, 12 guage or even 14 guage would work.The difference between that and the weight of the coins in your pocket would be negligible. You could save far more weight by skipping breakfast and sailing bare assed.
> Yes, there is a reason people use fancy pulleys. Promotion, advertising , glossy brochures, and hype.
> ...


But now the Garhauer is cheaper than your block:



> I then offered to buy one of his blocks for $11 (half the price of the $22 Garhauer, and 500% more than his cost to make it) and test them both to destruction as he's laid out below in the next post. Still no luck.


I think I'll stick with the tried-and-true. I don't like buying expensive anti-yachtie type gear.

I'll get to the other stuff later. Thanks for reading. I think you're beginning to see why these claims of Brent's are NOT (as the title of this thread indicates) the "Best Metal Sailboat Information".


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

What a shame, yet another metal boat thread ruined by Brent and his minions. I really wish this could have stayed on track, as it could have provided some good info. But instead it got derailed by the DIY steel boat crowd who had to pull it down to there level. The OP specifically stated he did not want info on DIY style building, as there are lots of threads about that. So why does Boiler still have to post his irrelevant info? Then gets upset whenever anyone tries to put it back on track. I am all for thread drift but this origami boat business gets old.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Yeah,,,,that's it,,,,I made him do it!

That's was 11 year old kids say, "He made me do it!"

But seriously folks, enough of this BS, go check out my latest blog entry where I tell the entire *NIGHT RUNNER* saga with all the nasty bits left intact.

*NIGHT RUNNER* has won the SWIFTSURE Race 3 times first overall. She has won First in Class five times. That's only one race. Doug has lost track of all his victories in this 33 year old wooden flyer.

I think the story will entertain you and educate you.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

The Awaiting Frank Paine In The Rain tidbit is awesome.

Congrats on yet another win.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

smackdaddy said:


> (
> But now the Garhauer is cheaper than your block:


Which single block for 1/2" line is cheaper than 30 bucks I'm looking at their hard to navigate catalog and finding 200 blocks that aren't anything that?
could you link it?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks Smack.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

bobperry said:


> Thanks Smack.


reading your blog re NR good story and i love the lines


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks 74. That was before we had computers to do our fairing for us. I loved drawing lines by hand. Today I love to create lines on the computer.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

theboilerflue said:


> Which single block for 1/2" line is cheaper than 30 bucks I'm looking at their hard to navigate catalog and finding 200 blocks that aren't anything that?
> could you link it?


1/2"?? Where did that enter the equation? Here is the link to the bet. Pay close attention to the details:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1083152-post833.html

And remember, you have to do it with $2 and in 20 minutes like Brent says.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

smackdaddy said:


> 1/2"?? Where did that enter the equation? Here is the link to the bet. Pay close attention to the details:
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1083152-post833.html
> 
> And remember, you have to do it with $2 and in 20 minutes like Brent says.


Well I can only speak of my own experiance or needs here, I need for the most part blocks for 1/2" line. That Gauhauer catalog doesn't do the best job at saying what size line you can fit into the sheave. I suspect the (now) 23 dollar one is for smaller line and if I were to get a block that would be useful to me it would double that or more, especially since most of the blocks on my boat are double or triple or fiddle blocks which are much more costly. I did however buy some harken cam cleats to use with the blocks I made - I've broken two of them so far. The springs inside them are held in place by some minuscule cast aluminum rods and they snaped clean off. Given the design of them it's hard to imagine how I've put any force on them other than through the spring that they are "designed" for, so not impressed. They were 18 bucks or something online and I didn't figure I'd be able to make something that wouldn't take too much screwing around. Same as the garhauer rope clutch I use for my reefing lines, I'm sure after enough screwing around I could build one but in the process I'd chew through too much line for it to be feasible.

As far as the costs it would be maybe a dollar for the UHMW, what ever a 3x7" peice of aluminum cost at the scrap yard and a bolt and nut - probably the most expensive part. I made all my blocks at once, so hard to gauge exactly how long it would take to make one. probably it would take longer to pull out the hole saw kit, drill, jig saw and blades, get the right size bolt and get the material out. Much less cleaning up the mess the grinding the groove makes. that's why I did a bunch at a time.

My point is that I'd have to spend a whole lot more if I were to buy all the blocks for my boat and I think the difference in proformance is pretty marginal. I would be curious to see how much they could take. I imagine the weak point is the bend in the cheeks. I'd happily send you one for a case of beer but not really worth my time otherwise.


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## theboilerflue (Apr 11, 2012)

miatapaul said:


> The OP specifically stated he did not want info on DIY style building, as there are lots of threads about that.


I didn't think there were rules like this, I'm sorry if I've stepped on you toes. There's nothing in the title to give me any indication that this was a "professional" advice only thread.

What's OP?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

theboilerflue said:


> Well I can only speak of my own experiance or needs here, I need for the most part blocks for 1/2" line. That Gauhauer catalog doesn't do the best job at saying what size line you can fit into the sheave. I suspect the (now) 23 dollar one is for smaller line and if I were to get a block that would be useful to me it would double that or more, especially since most of the blocks on my boat are double or triple or fiddle blocks which are much more costly. I did however buy some harken cam cleats to use with the blocks I made - I've broken two of them so far. The springs inside them are held in place by some minuscule cast aluminum rods and they snaped clean off. Given the design of them it's hard to imagine how I've put any force on them other than through the spring that they are "designed" for, so not impressed. They were 18 bucks or something online and I didn't figure I'd be able to make something that wouldn't take too much screwing around. Same as the garhauer rope clutch I use for my reefing lines, I'm sure after enough screwing around I could build one but in the process I'd chew through too much line for it to be feasible.
> 
> *As far as the costs it would be maybe a dollar for the UHMW, what ever a 3x7" peice of aluminum cost at the scrap yard and a bolt and nut - probably the most expensive part. I made all my blocks at once, so hard to gauge exactly how long it would take to make one. probably it would take longer to pull out the hole saw kit, drill, jig saw and blades, get the right size bolt and get the material out. Much less cleaning up the mess the grinding the groove makes. that's why I did a bunch at a time.*
> 
> My point is that I'd have to spend a whole lot more if I were to buy all the blocks for my boat and I think the difference in proformance is pretty marginal. I would be curious to see how much they could take. I imagine the weak point is the bend in the cheeks. I'd happily send you one for a case of beer but not really worth my time otherwise.


Everything you said above is perfectly reasonable. I've actually ALWAYS praised Brent's ingenuity, in his blocks, windlass, furler, etc. It's really smart stuff and looks tough as hell. No argument from me at all in this regard.

What makes it all ridiculous are his claims about the stuff being far cheaper and easier than it actually is, while also being "superior" to everything else. "$2 and 20 minutes" for a block sounds great. But when you lay out everything above you need to do to get that block done (all the things you - and most others - have sense enough to understand) - it's just not doable. But Brent insists it is - over and over - just as he does with most of his claims.

Just as importantly - there is NO WAY a Brent block will "look just as good" or even "work just as well" as a professionally made ball-bearing block. Does this mean the Brent block is "crap". Of course not. It's damn tough, smart, and functional. And it is WAY cheaper than the off-the-shelf stuff as you say. Anyone can see that. The problem is, Brent just can't leave it there. It has to be superior in every way. And it's just not.

I'll definitely buy you a case of beer for one of your blocks. Click on my name on this post and send me a private message with your mailing address. I'll send you US$23 along with my mailing address. I'll even throw in some BFS swag. Send me the block and buy yourself some beer.


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

Yup the Gauhauer web site could use alot of work but there equipment is excellent and there prices are unbeatable.That, and they are a small family business in southern Cal (more or less local for me).A boat I worked on replaced most of the blocks with Gauhauer blocks. All could handle 5/8" line.The most expensive one was $32.Hey I'm all for DYI but theres no way I could better them.It would cost me more to make even if the material were free and they took 20 minutes a piece to make.I have access to a machine shop, welder,tools and knowlegable craftsman.It just doesnt make sense to me.I can totaly see making my own self- steering gear,water maker etc. I made my own, full featured navigation,chart plotter,pc for less than $200.I got a used lenovo T61 lappy from craigslist,a USB "puck" gps from amazon, downloaded Navigatrix, a free Linux OS with opencpn and lots of other programs all configured and installed.Just downloaded NOAA charts for the entire US and territorial waters for free.It took less than an hour ,once I had the lappy and the USB gps.If it gets wet and craps out I have the whole thing on a memeory stick and a spare used lappy.I just installed a full Ray marine system .Very expensive and the quality didnt give me any confidence.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

theboilerflue said:


> Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
> My 1/4 inch galv wire halyard, which I put on in Tonga in 2003 is due for replacement after ten years of mostly full time cruising. I don't think I would have got that out of any other material
> 
> I saw it with my own eyes. What's the problem?


It doesn't match what he said elsewhere in the thread about his rigging.



theboilerflue said:


> Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
> This hatch can be made out of scrap aluminum for under $25 and is a far better hatch than commercialy made ones costing hundreds of dollars
> 
> I agree my hatch has never given me trouble, it's cheap, it's solid, one piece, except for the foam gasket which is cheap closed cell foam my floor mats and the stainless latch I built. I've replaced bomar hatches for customers that have failed which cost a couple hundred dollars. Whats the problem here - you really need to illistrate your point smacky.


Were you able to build yours for under $25?



theboilerflue said:


> Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
> They weigh about the same as framed boats but the true saving is in time and thus money, faireness greatly enhanced , zero filler needed. I find that if it looks dainty fragile and flimsy, it probably is. I refuse to design a boat dainty fragile and flimsy, the stakes are too high on ocean cruisers. Full time cruisers get the same rough treatment as workboats , and should thus be built more to workboat, funtional priorities. Experienced ocean cruisers are a lot more impressed by workboat priorities, than the dainty, flimsy, fragile "Yacht" look.
> 
> I agree, using your boat all the time is hard on things and they need to be strong and over built to take the abuse


I disagree. Sure, things need to be strong. But nothing _needs_ to be overbuilt. It just needs to be built to its intended purpose. That's why knowledge and experience like Bob's is so valuable. He understands this across many materials, including steel. Overbuilding is the _entire ethos_ of BS' design approach. It's basically all he's got. And, though it has some merit in some places, overall it's really misguided and wasteful I think. It's kind of the same "keeping up with the joneses" mentality - except at the other end of the yachting spectrum.

A _sailboat_ doesn't _need_ to be steel. A vessel that typically hits rocks and reefs needs to be steel.



theboilerflue said:


> Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
> Now, when I get a new mainsail, the first thing I do is remove the roach and battens, which are responsible for over 80% of sail repairs, which is why sailmakers come up with so many flimsy excuses for roaches and battens. It is a source of much income in the repair buisiness for them. Battens drastrically reduce the life expectancy of a cruising sail, and a good cruising boat should be designed to balance well without a roach on the main. Roaches and battens are a racing gimmick which should be left on racing boats. They have no place on a good offshore cruising boat.
> 
> Many of the BrentBoats you'll see in photographs have battens. Do his own customers listen to him?
> ...


Okay - so you listen to him, but you disregard him. So you have some common sense. Almost everyone understands what you understand. Performance is worth the wear for the most part. But, by your very actions, you don't follow Brent's advice. You don't "listen" to what he says on this subject. You disagree - like most all of us "yachties" - and most of the other BS yacht owners. That's my point.



theboilerflue said:


> Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
> I don'tdon't de anything, I just warn people of the pitfalls of following trendiness over logic, warnings I wish someone had given me in my youth. Beneteau's production is a testimony to the effect of mass advertising to the gullible masses, and to the gullibility of those masses, not to quality.
> 
> Nobody wants to be a gullible mass. But seriously?
> ...


I'm not a big fan of "stuff" either. But I don't look down on people that like to get stuff. My business runs on that fuel - and it keeps my employees in a job. Brent says those that are not like him are just "gullible masses". I guess this is supposed to make Brent The Good Shepherd of Cruising. He's not. He's just bitter and judgmental.

I'm not of the "insanely expensive yacht culture". I think your desire to simplify and the practicality of living on your boat being a means to that end is great. I personally don't want to do that - I probably want more stuff than you do - but I certainly don't think you're a "gullible mass" for doing what you do and believing what you believe. We just have different degrees and definitions of simplicity.



theboilerflue said:


> Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
> Last time I left Tonga at the same time as a 28 ft aluminiun Bob Perry design. I took 57 days to BC, he took 99 days. You wouldn't do much better in any heavily loaded 31 footer, with all that the owner owns aboard.
> 
> Bob has no record of this boat. Brent can provide no evidence. See a trend?
> ...


Dude, read his quote. He just presented the "documented evidence". The problem is, his "documentation" of "the facts" is false. If he is going to make a claim, it should be accurate. Or he should let you know that he's winging it. So, take it up with Brent, not me.



theboilerflue said:


> Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
> Most don't tie to docks, one is enroute from Cape horn to the Aleutians, several are finishing circumnavigations and several are leisurely cruising Mexico and the South Pacific, while others are cruising full time in BC waters, unlike the expensive plastic boats ,which leave their owners so broke that they have to tie the boat to a dock and spend years earning the money to pay for them. Do they sail faster? Not if you include the time peope spend working to pay for them, then pay the moorage, insurance, repairs, sails maintenance etc. while the guy in the more affordable Brentboat is out cruising and making miles. The guy in the so called "fast boat" will never sail enough miles to make up for the time he has wasted at the dock..
> 
> Most of the BrentBoats I've come across are for sale.
> ...


Online. Brent said he's had "over 200 built". If there are only seven in your area, 2 in the PPJ, and maybe another 7 for sale or just purchased, where are the other 182? They must be rusting away unfinished in backyards. I've come across a lot of those online too.



theboilerflue said:


> Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
> I'm not saying mine is the right design for someone who wants to throw away a lot of money for an inferior product. In fact is is definitely the wrong boat for someone who wants to do that.
> 
> This is a very important point. And this is why it's so critical to understand where every penny of your cruising budget will go if you get into a BrentBoat. Yet, this is virtually impossible as there are no real numbers out there - and he won't provide any.
> ...


That's the point. Brent's NEVER provided accurate numbers. That's why I had to find them myself from his customers around the web. Thank you for finally providing real numbers first-hand from an actual BS Boat builder/owner.

But, you forgot lead for the keel and paint (a hell of a lot of it) and you're already at $20K (mid range of what you listed) for the absolute basics. Then aside from the other stuff you listed which would be the same on any build, you've still got hatches/ports, seacocks, plumbing, electrical, equipment, the interior, etc. So you've confirmed that my numbers are pretty damn accurate - which means Brent's are impossibly low. Again, that was my point.

It seems I'm now the expert on what a BS boat will actually cost....without the BS.



theboilerflue said:


> Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
> I only help the owner get the shell and steel work done. The kind of finish they do from that point on is up to them Those who have gone yachty have always regreted such a waste of time and money, which should have been spent on cruising, and things that matter.
> 
> So I suppose what he's saying here is that he'll help you through the easy stuff for the first few days - then you're on your own when it gets hard?
> ...


That's good to hear. I hope he does that for all his customers&#8230;even the ones in Louisiana. Because unless you're a metal worker with a good working knowledge of what you're doing, not just a "cruising wannabe" (as Brent calls them), "very basic steel work" is not just something you innately know how to do. My point is that when the amateur builder "chooses to take on" a BS yacht, he or she should at least have accurate information on what that means. Brent doesn't provide that in these forums. Never has.



theboilerflue said:


> Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
> The paint job on mmy current boat is 29 years old and the only maintenance I've done on it is touch up the chipoed parts, the rest is as good as the day I put it on. I do an houror two a year maintenace on my paint job. Any time tyo se rusting in th e middle iof aflat surface the paint was n ever thich k enouhg or th esateel not clean enough. I initially put 30 gallons of epoxy on my boat. The thicker the better. Too thin a paint job is the main cause of maintenace problems on steel boats, a problem which is easily avoided. To thin a paint job is often motivated by seeking the yachty look. Thick paint works better ,but usually does look rougher. Thats a matter of priorities.
> 
> See photos above.
> ...


I don't at all insist that everyone wants or should have an immaculate, pristine boat. What I have a problem with is Brent claiming over and over again that _his boat is "perfect"_, only requiring _"an hour or two of maintenance a year"_. Someone that's interested in a BS Yacht and doesn't know any better (i.e. - a gullible mass) might believe this. The photos, however, clearly show different. BS' boat is rough - certainly not "perfect". I'd say most of us put WAY more than 1-2 hours per year maintaining the appearance of our boats. I do, and my Hunter is not "perfect" by any means (though it's pretty damn nice).

The point is, Brent's boat is anything but "perfect" as he claims. It's obviously fine for him and his standards, and there's nothing wrong with it, but it certainly ain't perfect.

Now, Panope's boat? I'd say that's pretty damn close to perfect. Brent should take a few tips.


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## Dirtyfloats (Apr 21, 2014)

The problem with spending too much time on the computer is that It turns your brain to ******* mush...

Seriously.
GO OUTSIDE.

Sail around a bunch and alot of the details wil disapear in the fog. Put enough miles under yer keel and you will enivitably have problems with the boat. 
(including hitting things)
Then you will know what works for you.
Or you will just buy your way through life beacuse you can and the stupid circus of capitalism will continue.

P.S. Whatch out for ebola. I hear it stings....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Fair enough, I'll stop answering boiler's post if it's going to get everyone bent out of shape. I'm only about halfway through it and he was growing increasingly upset anyway.

Facts is facts though. Being mad doesn't change them.

PS - I am buying my way through life and so are you. In fact, I just made an offer on a Brent Block from boiler. He doesn't seem to mind capitalism.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Smack.. I admire your persistence but PLEASE tell me you've really got something better to do with your time...?!?! 

To avoid this thread suffering the same fate as the previous steel thread, can we please try to keep it on topic (ie _*metal*_ boats and construction) and keep the personal stuff to a minimum.....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Faster said:


> Smack.. I admire your persistence but PLEASE tell me you've really got something better to do with your time...?!?! .


You know me well enough to know that when I'm interested in something - I'm interested.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I had forgotten about the mythical alu 28'er I "designed". For Boiler, this is nonsense. This is BS. This is a "fact" that BS invented to help his story. I have never designed an alu 28'er. This boat is a figment of the BS imagination. Not a fact. He lies. Get it? He is a liar.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

For the record, this is my "ugly" wife Jill. This pic was taken about 8 years ago but she still looks like this. She always hated this pic because her foot is covered in sand. She is one of the toughest sailors I have ever sailed with. I have been on races where she was the only crew member left standing watch! I do love her. She raced our Esprit 37 with an all girl crew. That's our Escape dink, an odd boat but they gave me two of them for free. Walker Bay gave me two free dinks also. Tried to give me a third. It's good to be king.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Wow! Here's a really pretty 37' steel boat. It can be done:










1995 Custom Steel Cutter Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

And for a home-made boat, I'd put that very near the "perfect" category in terms of condition.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I agree Smack. That's a darn good looking steel boat. Too bad they don't list the designer.
Steel is no excuse for crude and lack of design skills.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

From the ad:



> And Treworgy's design for the curved steel bottom makes them even stronger, more fuel efficient, and more esthetically pleasing.


This could be talking about construction methods, I suppose, but might also mean that the builder is also the designer.. "Homebuilt" might not be appropriate in this case after reading the details. Darn handsome boat, though, and a good one for this area too!~


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I got the same impression from the spec's although I think I recall that name, Treworgy from before. Probably my imagination. I also agree that this does not look like a home builder effort. I can;t find Treworgy in THE ENCYCLOPEDIA of YACHT DESIGNERS. They do not miss many.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I think it might be this guy:

Boat Directory TREWORGY YACHTS INC

http://www.islandcottagevillas.com/treworgy yachts.html


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Turning back to the op. I've been impressed by info from the metal boat society.

My father in laws best friend built a 65' steel trawler. It was totally fair from any angle.it was built by the side of his house. Co workers volunteered for friendship and kicks and giggles. 
He ran a metal shop. His friends were welders,plumbers electricians etc.
Boat went down east coast through the canal to Alaska. Boat was lost to fire. Steel is of no benefit in tha circumstance. Inside is not compatible with life and outside is to hot to stand on.
Fairness is function of design ( frames v plate) and execution ( short puddle runs, heat sinks, true framing). Note I talk of framed construction as once 40' or over I've yet to see or hear of origami being used.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

That's a great looking cruiser. I see nothing about it that couldn't be done equally nicely on a Brentboat.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Btw I find this yachtie stuff annoying. I strongly object to biff with whales on his pants but like blocks with little to no friction, no stretch lines,sails that shape and going a tenth of a knot faster. I like central air/ heat and no dirt or fumes. I like not stressing about electricity or water. I live for long periods of time on the d-mn thing. I like being comfy and enjoying a fine metal, a cool drink a comfy berth. I get joy that my boat is beautiful inside and out. What the hell is wrong with that.
Btw the steel yacht I referred in past post was beautiful inside and other than the forty virgins had everything you would want.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

outbound said:


> Btw I find this yachtie stuff annoying. I strongly object to biff with whales on his pants but like blocks with little to no friction, no stretch lines,sails that shape and going a tenth of a knot faster. I like central air/ heat and no dirt or fumes. I like not stressing about electricity or water. I live for long periods of time on the d-mn thing. I like being comfy and enjoying a fine metal, a cool drink a comfy berth. I get joy that my boat is beautiful inside and out. What the hell is wrong with that.
> Btw the steel yacht I referred in past post was beautiful inside and other than the forty virgins had everything you would want.


I wouldn't settle for less than the promised 72 virgins.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Outbound, 

What was the cause if the fire on the steel boat?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

From what I believe the galley. Was told second hand cooking oil caught and spilled. Down side to insulated hulls is once insulation catches your done. You can't put it out fast enough to not be overcome by fumes. Boat didn't sink but was considered total loss.


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## shank32095 (Mar 22, 2014)

* So glad I was able to resurrect Pros and Cons with a simple question where to get info. I have been a month in Malaysia enjoying Crusoe and getting the info first hand, my boat is freaking awesome ! Got back to the forum 200 comments later to find out I had infuriated Brent's boyfriend Boiler, such a nice couple, because I stated the obvious and I would bet 95% of the folks with a net worth over ten grand would agree. BS boats look like crap and are made of stuff he collects for years out of dumpsters. Don't take my word for it, compare any well designed boat with a BS boat, open your eyes. Go back and read the Gospel according to BS, did he not say he built his boats from stuff he finds thrown away by the side of the road? I am sure all the shareholders in his boat building empire were thrilled to hear that? LOL. So cute how Brent and his new pal are so compatible but I got a news flash for both you pinheads. Like I have told Brent before, God willing I will continue living my lifestyle I have enjoyed since I retired ten years ago at 48. I intend to continuing making a good living from my shoulders up, traveling the World enjoying the good life with my beautiful wife and kids. I earned it. If you two don't like it go suck a big one. Or in Brent's case a small one. Sorry Bob & Smack but these clowns need to be called out on their socialist entitlement BS. If the monitor wants to spank me so be it but it may serve him well to go back and check out Brent and his date Boiler's rants about the wealthy destroying the planet. This from two obviously lazy, unsuccessful losers living off $10K per year by their own admission. Wonder how much this romance is costing the Canadian Government?

Wow, and I own a steel boat. LOL !*


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## shank32095 (Mar 22, 2014)

Bob, Thanks for all your FREE advise about my boat. Got to spend a month down in Kota Kinabalu and had an absolute blast. Worked out well, got a guy wants to trade me a fabulous villa in Barra de Navidad right smack on the water. I gave the guy tons of pics but he wanted more so I gave him this one.
Hope you don't mind.


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## Dirtyfloats (Apr 21, 2014)

Wow,
The world could use a lot less zombies. 
I hope piracy takes off in a big way....

Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


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## shank32095 (Mar 22, 2014)

Dirtyfloats said:


> Wow,
> The world could use a lot less zombies.
> I hope piracy takes off in a big way....
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


*Did I just receive a message from Henry David Thoreau on his HUAWEI Y300-0151 *


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

It's just really weird that the steel boat thing has to be about class warfare. Why on earth does Brent want to make it about that? They're just boats!!!


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## shank32095 (Mar 22, 2014)

Smack I will be the first to admit I am just as bias as BS and this will be the last I say on the subject. I began this thread because I really wanted to gain knowledge about different types of hull materials and their impact on marketing. As much as he dislikes wealthy successful folks I despise lazy deadbeats who survive off the taxpayers dime and then spout crap about how it is such a noble way to live. They leave no footprint because they are continually sitting on their asses. Trouble is I will never win this debate in the States, I am grossly out numbered.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

shank32095 said:


> Smack I will be the first to admit I am just as bias as BS and this will be the last I say on the subject. I began this thread because I really wanted to gain knowledge about different types of hull materials and their impact on marketing. As much as he dislikes wealthy successful folks I despise lazy deadbeats who survive off the taxpayers dime and then spout crap about how it is such a noble way to live. They leave no footprint because they are continually sitting on their asses. Trouble is I will never win this debate in the States, I am grossly out numbered.


Well, if nothing else, you have given me a new way of thinking about things...

No matter how big my environmental footprint is - it will never be as big as some other dude's assprint.


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## shank32095 (Mar 22, 2014)

" Ask not what America can do for you, ask what you can do to eliminate your assprint "


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Shanks on a roll tonight. Barra de Navidad is a very nice place. I could live there easily. But what would I do with all my Pendleton shirts and my flannel lined jeans? Watched the Indians pull one net set with between 500 and 600 lbs. of Coho salmon off the beach right in front of my shack this morning. I like it here.

I can't imagine what steel boats has to do with class warfare but I think it was part of the BS "Everything you guys do is wrong" approach to life including the way you live your life. 

I'm off to N. Carolina with my Canuuk pal Tim tomorrow to see the Pacific Sea Craft 63' ketch. It's almost done. Tim is in charge of the deck layout and wants to do a final fit on the deck hardware. With two cockpits and a pilot house not to mention the ketch rig it is a very complex deck. I'm grateful for Tim's help.

My carbon footprint will be no bigger flying first class than flying coach.
So there.
Neener neener.

I'll take photos.


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

Ya Bob but in first class you leave a bigger ass print....bigger seats.


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## rgp (Jul 20, 2005)

bobperry said:


> My carbon footprint will be no bigger flying first class than flying coach.
> So there.
> Neener neener.
> 
> I'll take photos.


Bob,
I'm writing this in the Denver airport suffering thru my second canceled flight of the day, so I'm a bit grumpy.
Your first class seat does have a bigger carbon footprint then my tiny coach seat. The exta weight of those free cocktails, the yummy meal, the exta two seats that won't fit into a first clas row all consume more fuel per passenger mile than a coach seat. I'm ok with it, just sayin. It's not like I'm flying somewhere to save the world, I'm doing it to make more money to buy nice things for my steel boat.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

rgp said:


> Your first class seat does have a bigger carbon footprint then my tiny coach seat.


See? It really does all come back to the assprint!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

What follows is distillantnof 1/2 bottle of Henricks and the rambling of a systems engineer and myself so should be viewed as rough estimates but an educated assessment .
My boat at its fundamental level is mostly sand and oil manipulated by man with some Fe and Pb thrown in. The energy requirements per lb of displacement for this manipulation are actually less then for a BS boat. When you add in coating requirements and insulation this is even more apparent. 
When at anchor and BS heating with wood and me heating with a much more efficient hydronic heater his footprint is much larger. When underway with me running solar and wind going an average of 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 times faster my footprint for mile travelled is lower. This is further enhanced by the greater sailing performance of my vessel meaning less engine time in the usual cruise or voyage as less engine time will occur. Furthermore given reasonable assumptions of miles in a day's work I will utilize less food,water, fuel for mile travelled. In short less consumables so less footprint. When one looks at reasonable assumptions for service life of the vessel once again the grp boat is favored as regards CO2/ hydrocarbon release for mile travelled.
In short BS burning wood in an iron vessel devoid of alt energy sources with marginal sailing performance ( especially to weather) would appear to be leaving a much larger footprint than the average modern cruiser. Interestingly, these assumptions would appear to be less valid in Fe vessels professionally constructed making use of modern advances. Our two carbon fragment fueled discussion suggests at 50' or so the Fe vessel suffers no penalties.
All done- hiccough


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## shank32095 (Mar 22, 2014)

outbound said:


> What follows is distillantnof 1/2 bottle of Henricks and the rambling of a systems engineer and myself so should be viewed as rough estimates but an educated assessment .
> My boat at its fundamental level is mostly sand and oil manipulated by man with some Fe and Pb thrown in. The energy requirements per lb of displacement for this manipulation are actually less then for a BS boat. When you add in coating requirements and insulation this is even more apparent.
> When at anchor and BS heating with wood and me heating with a much more efficient hydronic heater his footprint is much larger. When underway with me running solar and wind going an average of 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 times faster my footprint for mile travelled is lower. This is further enhanced by the greater sailing performance of my vessel meaning less engine time in the usual cruise or voyage as less engine time will occur. Furthermore given reasonable assumptions of miles in a day's work I will utilize less food,water, fuel for mile travelled. In short less consumables so less footprint. When one looks at reasonable assumptions for service life of the vessel once again the grp boat is favored as regards CO2/ hydrocarbon release for mile travelled.
> In short BS burning wood in an iron vessel devoid of alt energy sources with marginal sailing performance ( especially to weather) would appear to be leaving a much larger footprint than the average modern cruiser. Interestingly, these assumptions would appear to be less valid in Fe vessels professionally constructed making use of modern advances. Our two carbon fragment fueled discussion suggests at 50' or so the Fe vessel suffers no penalties.
> All done- hiccough


*One would think that is a fairly difficult argument to discount. I got to tell you, you are a pretty sharp guy Out. Thanks for extracting my 57' Crusoe from the debate.*


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Yep, I always pay attention to Out's posts. He's a smart cookie.

I'm 6'3" and 225 lbs.. I don't bend well. It's physically painful me to fold myself up into a coach class seat. I do not charge my clients for travel time. I prefer to stay in small, weird hotels. But I won't fly coach. The novelty of travel has long worn off.

About 30 years ago I was checking in for a coach class flight to Taiwan. The gate supervisor turned out to be a guy I knew. He had an Ericson 37 and I had designed him a new rudder. He asked if my ticket was "taken care of". I said yes. He asked to see my ticket and disappeared with it. He came back and said, "Now your ticket is taken care of."
I was seated in first class and treated amazingly well by the flight attendants. That did it for me. I was hooked on first class. I have my weaknesses.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

outbound said:


> What follows is distillantnof 1/2 bottle of Henricks and the rambling of a systems engineer and myself so should be viewed as rough estimates but an educated assessment .
> My boat at its fundamental level is mostly sand and oil manipulated by man with some Fe and Pb thrown in. The energy requirements per lb of displacement for this manipulation are actually less then for a BS boat. When you add in coating requirements and insulation this is even more apparent.
> When at anchor and BS heating with wood and me heating with a much more efficient hydronic heater his footprint is much larger. When underway with me running solar and wind going an average of 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 times faster my footprint for mile travelled is lower. This is further enhanced by the greater sailing performance of my vessel meaning less engine time in the usual cruise or voyage as less engine time will occur. Furthermore given reasonable assumptions of miles in a day's work I will utilize less food,water, fuel for mile travelled. In short less consumables so less footprint. When one looks at reasonable assumptions for service life of the vessel once again the grp boat is favored as regards CO2/ hydrocarbon release for mile travelled.
> In short BS burning wood in an iron vessel devoid of alt energy sources with marginal sailing performance ( especially to weather) would appear to be leaving a much larger footprint than the average modern cruiser. Interestingly, these assumptions would appear to be less valid in Fe vessels professionally constructed making use of modern advances. Our two carbon fragment fueled discussion suggests at 50' or so the Fe vessel suffers no penalties.
> All done- hiccough


What powers your hydronic heater ? Coal fired generating plants? Wood is carbon neutral ,as wood burning produces the same global warming effect as letting it rot . The Exon Valdes disaster ,. and the gulf oil spill were not catering to my oil needs 
Your environmental footprint is measured in impact per day ,regardless of what you do with your day.
I don't think the average plastic boat is going to windward faster than Wills 1006 miles in 6 days . Certainly the Beneteaus and Cooper 40 that my boats have outsailed easily were not.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Brent I hate to burst your bubble but after CO2 black matter is the second leading cause of climate change. If you got out in the world more you would know this is common knowledge. This is agreed to by all the climatologists and a major cause of concern. Black,matter is the particulates generated by the incomplete combustion of cellulose (wood) and fuel oils. Although fuel oils are used to power trucks and boats the major contributor is wood cooking fires, brick kilns, slash and burn agriculture and like acts in third world countries and your boat. This black matter has a very high combustion point absorbs light ( that's why its black) thereby heats. This heat is released in the night. It also impacts on cloud formation.
As usual your statements reflect your biases and utter ignorance. Some states have outlawed the use of wood to fuel power plants. Restrictions on the home use of wood as a primary fuel is also underway in some locales. NGAs are actively involved in trying to promote the decrease use and more efficient complete burning of wood. A couple of days ago,I listenned to a long piece about this on NPR. 
Burning wood generating black matter is definitely not green. The propane fireplaces in my house are actually much greener. Black matter is generated even by efficient fireplaces with catalysts. The propane highly efficient forced hot water heat is greener still as it does not generate particulate carbon black matter and heat generated is used to heat my house not my chimney. The solar on my roof to generate my electricity and domestic hot water is the greenest. Remember chimney sweeps in London had the highest incidence of testicular cancer ever seen. Soot is really bad for you and the environment.
Please stop burning wood Brent. Please realize your basic assumptions are not borne out in fact.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Brent I asked before and will ask again please post a sailing polar. Until you do given your other patently false statements your claims are viewed as suspect.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

outbound said:


> Please realize your basic assumptions are not borne out in fact.


I think this can be used as a pro forma response to virtually all of Brent's posts.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

It's 12:34 am. I am just back from North Carolina. 
I'm very tired.
Nighty night.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Just back from N. Carolina and the CATARI 63' ketch project at PSC. launch is now predicted for January. The boat looks fabulous but is still in the shed so good photos are very hard t get due to the shed structural supports. I'll have some PSC approved pics next week and I'll do a blog entry about the boat.

We changed the deck layout again. The traveler is back in and the German mainsheet system is restored as per my initial deck plan. That was the only real change. I wasn't keen on the look of the Dorade boxes so I made a small change there too. Spent time with the head joinery guy going over details for the big "bureau in the owner's cabin. Keel is on. Transom door is installed. Davits are installed. Went over deck stowage options for the custom dinghy I am designing. It will stow in the cabin trunk for passages. Decided to leave the "eyebrow off the pilot house and replace it with a s.s. handrail and remove the handrail from on top of the ph.

I can't say thew trip was fun but seeing the boat was fun and working with the crew at PSC is always enjoyable.

I'll post pics when I get them.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Out:
I don't think you will ever see polars for a BS boat. To begin with to get polars you have to have a set of lines for the hull and an accurate VCG. I very much doubt that BS has hull lines. I don't think he needs them. His hulls are an artifact of a geometry process that he knows well but he has little control over the resultant shape. He cuts, folds and pastes and ends up with something that looks like a boat. As for an accurate VCG that would require some basic math and we have seen the BS attempts at math and they have never proven reliable.I think Tad Roberts simulated a BS hull in his computer but it's really his interpretation of a BS boat. If BS did have a set of lines, and I have never seen one although I have also asked, then the hull would have to be recreated accurately in the computer in order to run VPP. Given the extra crude nature of the drawings BS produces I doubt he could produce a fair set of hull lines. It's not required using his method.

My standard for a well done set of hull lines would be my own like, i.e. something like this:


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

There won't be any BS lines - he has stated that he shapes his boats with cardboard cutouts - mostly to get the darts right for folding it up.

More akin to working from a carved model than a set of lines & offsets.

I think it's better to relate his methods to old time beach builders building working boats by eye and experience than to compare it to Bob's modern technical approach.

The only real point of comparison is that they are both sailboats.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Jon:
I kinda, sorta think I said that. I don't think a set of lines would work given the BS method. A set of lines would work very nicely though to build "old time" wooden work boats. But many boat has been built purely by eye.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Bob can i ask a question about Night Runner? i own the slip next to her and as her neighbor (who used to live aboard at that slip) i have spent many hours admiring her. Mu admiration multiplied when i raced on her.

Whats up with the dolphin striker? I've never seen one that terminates at the stemhead before. The rest of 5hem are usually located further down the stem like on the formosa i owned. Does night runner's striker put a lifting load on the bowsprit in the midfle of the sprit? 

It clearly works but I've just never seen anything like it on a modern boat. I've seen similar things on tallship sprits. 

Why do it that way? What design limitations were you working with? Did it achieve what you were after? If it does work how come we don't see it more often?

Medsailor


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Med:
I am using the dolphin striker (DS) to get higher loads on the headstay. That's what any DS is for. It just gives a more efficient vector for the bobstay to do it's job. I have done several boats with DS's. I always terminate them on the stem so there is no upward load on the sprit. Just seems obvious to me that this is the way to do it.

You do not see this more often because you do not see racing boats with upwind sails tacked to a bowsprit anymore. You see lots of sprits these days but they are for off the wind and light air sails and the loads are far less. Headstay tension is not critical with off the wind sails. Limits? I had no limitations other than my own imagination when I was designing NR. And yes, it clearly does exactly what I intended it to do. The race record of NR provides the proof of that. I did the same detail on AIRLOOM, another of my sprit boats with an impressive racing history.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Awesome. Doug and his crew taught me how to use the ba kstay tensioner to perfectly tunr the headstay. They tuned that puppy and adjusted it nearly as often as other boats adjust a traveler or mainsheet. All the other madthead boats I've ever raced with are doing it wrong 

I haven't raced with Doug on NR many times but eash time I learn heaps!

I see what you mean about offwind vs racing loads on the headstay DS and sprit. Makes sense now. Thanks I've always wondered about that detail.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Brent, I've deleted that last posting of yours for name-calling and unsanctioned advertising - both of which are against site rules.

Bob your post is gone simply because Brent's is.

We will not let this thread devolve into the petty bickering that poisoned the last 'Steel' thread


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Thank you very much.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Thanks Fast.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Here's an old steel boat that looks to be of similar or better to many BS Yachts I've seen out there. And it's only $20K.

http://www.guatemalariodulce.com/boat for sale/tahitiana/tahitiana 32 for sale in rio dulce.html










Of course, hanging out in Rio Dulce - this thing must be a mold farm by now.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Here's an old steel boat that looks to be of similar or better to many BS Yachts I've seen out there. And it's only $20K.
> 
> Tahitiana 32' for sale - Guatemala Yacht Broker - Rio Dulce
> 
> ...


So is the Hunter for sale now? It does look nice.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

miatapaul said:


> So is the Hunter for sale now? It does look nice.


I would never own a steel sailboat. Hunters are far better.

But some people really like them. So, just trying to be helpful.


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## doogymon (Apr 6, 2008)

Ahoy there:

The vessel above (Tahiti Ketch inspired) in "Hunter Green" is indeed lovely.

Here is an excerpt from a TK Skipper:

An Interesting and Affordable Cruising Boat Choice | Lin & Larry Pardey: Newsletters & Cruising Tips

I lived aboard and chartered in the San Blas Islands of Panama, the Panama Canal (Cristobal/Colon) and Costa Rica for 14 years. Best years of my life! What a fabulous place to hang out in a sailboat!

During my stay, early 1970s through 1985, I met hundreds of cruisers transiting the Canal, and served as a line handler with more of them than I can count, including Eric and Susan Hiscock on their new steel Wanderer.

The Canal is a great place to see what kinds of boats are making long-distance voyages and bearing up to the rigors of the sea. I saw more Tahiti Ketches transit than any other single design. And I will bet that you have seen many of them during your decades of round-the-world cruising. It's definitely a boat design to be considered when contemplating long-distance voyaging on a tight budget.

Designed by John Hanna of Dunedin, Florida (USA) in 1929, that 30-foot legendary wooden sailboat has few peers when it comes to total miles sailed! And many of those that passed through the Canal had no engine, just like Seraffyn and Taleisin.

The Tahiti Ketch owners that I met were of every kind and nationality you could imagine. And for the most part, the owners built them themselves. They were a frugal lot, and salty as could be! French, German, Swedes, English, Norwegian, NewZealanders, Australians, and even a female Polish sailor, passed through the Canal with their Tahiti Ketches on their way to South Pacific adventures.

I saw a sound, well-equipped Tahiti Ketch for sale in St. Thomas, Virgin Islands last year at an asking price of just $25,000! It is estimated that somewhere between three and four thousand of them were built all over the world. Never a production boat (all of this was before fiberglass), each was hand-built.

I currently live aboard a steel version of Hanna's Tahiti Ketch. Welded steel hull, steel decks, and steel hatches! Dry as a bone down below in the nastiest of weather. Simplicity itself: Gaff-rigged and not a single winch for halyards or sheets. Manual windlass for ground tackle, an Aries Wind Vane for steering. Comfortable as an old shoe! In a stiff breeze and large seas when others are becoming anxious, I'm down below having a cup of hot chocolate. She sets 695 square feet of sail including the gaff topsail. Not bad for a single-handing pocket cruiser, eh?

Fair Winds


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

That's a rare 'single masted' ketch, is it??


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

Faster said:


> That's a rare 'single masted' ketch, is it??


No, Its a single masted hermaphridite schooner.
I was sailing in the gulf of Maine several years back I saw a Tahiti ketch trying to tack.It was blowing about 15 kts.It couldnt tack through the wind.They tried 5 or 6 times and then wound up "wearing ship" like and old square rigger.Jack Hannah based the design on the Greek sponge boats from Florida.The are not a Colin Archer derivatives as the sale blurb states.The Tahitiana is an "updated" version
by Westen farmer


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Check out 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats 
for people with real hands on experience, instead of jeering plastic boat salesmen who have zero hands on experience with steel sailboats. Check the postings from mid to late February 2015
Do a search under Silas Crosby for an interesting blog.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Hello Brent.

Good to see you back.

Try to stay around please.

BTW, what are you up to these days?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Brent Swain said:


> Check out
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats
> for people with real hands on experience, instead of jeering plastic boat salesmen who have zero hands on experience with steel sailboats. Check the postings from mid to late February 2015
> Do a search under Silas Crosby for an interesting blog.


Hey Brent! What's up Crusty?

BTW - I don't sell plastic boats...I just sail them.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Good for you ,Bob Figure this thread is of interest to some who are interested in steel boats.We all have heard ad nauseum about your opinions .Not saying they are without merit but here, now and again???.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Capt Len said:


> Good for you ,Bob Figure this thread is of interest to some who are interested in steel boats.We all have heard ad nauseum about your opinions .Not saying they are without merit but here, now and again???.


The way I see it Cap - Bob wouldn't have to give his opinion if Brent could just stop swiping at him with each post. But, alas, Brent can't do that. He has to keep trying to tear Bob down for some reason - even after all this time.

Brent must feel really threatened or something. I just think it's cute, honestly. And Bob has every right to respond.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Brent Swain said:


> Check out
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats
> ......for people with real hands on experience, instead of jeering plastic boat salesmen who have zero hands on experience with steel sailboats.....


Seriously?

For two years now Brent has continually regurgitated this same old dog ****e. He has now used this exact jibe 20 - 30 times on here.

Couldn't he have been banned permanently?

He is deliberately flogging his *product* under the guise of being a sailnet member and doing so in a way that is malicious, offensive and most unwelcome.

If he wishes to advertise his designs here he should be forced to become an advertiser, otherwise he should not be allowed to contribute in threads such as these, he has proven repeatedly he is incapable of meaningful contribution.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

....And my contribution is this.

Steel boats are great if you understand the material and the maintenance needed.

Solid and study for sure and over my side of the world there are plenty of good designs, Ganley and Adams amongst them that are good boats to be had at a good price nowadays.

It is fair to say they are generally not racers, but there are some good designs that for a cruising yacht would deliver satisfactory performance accompanied with the benefits of displacement.

I would personally however *run* not walk from any BS boat.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sorry you are so sensitive Len. I deleted my post just for you. I was poking the dog with a stick. That's all.

I can't imagine why BS is so threatened by me. I want nothing to do with his business. Designing steel boats for home builders has no appeal for me what so ever. BS certainly can't dream of threatening me. My clients would have zero interest in his work. We live in two distinctly different worlds and that's fine. Maybe he's jealous of my success. That his personal problem. Maybe he's angry because I have made a point of highlighting the stupid things he says about yacht design "Your boat could have a LPS as high as 182 degrees" being my all time favorite. I simply try to restore accuracy to discussions of yacht design. Maybe he doesn't like tall people.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

When you ask a question about steel boats, 95% of the advice offered comes form those who have zero long term cruising experience on one, zero long term live aboard experience on one, zero steel boat building or steel boat long term maintenance on one, and mainly from those trying to sell plastic, often from those who have a big, personal financial interest in misleading people into believing that plastic is their only option. I , unlike my critics, have built dozens of highly successful steel boats, lived aboard for decades, maintained my current steel boat for 30 years, cruised 11 months a year for nearly 40 years on a steel boat, and have single handed across the Pacific 9 times. When people with almost ZERO such experience tell you that I have it all wrong and they, with zero hands on experience have it all right, who do you believe? If I were not to question this , there would be no one in these debates who knows their ass from a hole in the ground on the subject of steel boats.
One guy, who cruises the West Indies and Florida, tells you that he knows more about keeping a boat warm and dry in a cold climate, than someone who has lived most of his life aboard in BC! 
They keep stating that, that which as had zero serious failures at sea, in nearly 40 years of offshore cruising ,including a single season passage thru the NW passage, several circumnavigations, a rounding of Cape Horn , an intense storms in the Aleutians, 16 days of pounding in up top 2 ft surf on the West coast of the Baja, pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf, and collision with a freighter in Gibralter, and hundreds of thousands of miles of open ocean cruising, in all weathers, is not strong enough. That is the way of my critics.

So do tell us Mr Perry, Smackdaddy, etc. How many steel boats have you personally owned? Lived aboard? For how long? Maintained ? For how long? Built with your own hands? Crossed oceans in? Cruised full time? For how long ? On a low budget?
NO answer, means ZERO!
So where is the wisdom in getting your info from those with ZERO hands on experience, rather than someone with my experience? What is the overall credibility of someone with almost ZERO experience, claiming to know more about a subject than someone with my over 4 decades of hands on experience, in all aspects of small steel boat cruising.
Without the endless campaigns against the spreading of accurate information on small steel cruising boats , by people who actually use them, and build them, and know what they are talking about on the subject, people would realize the benefits they offer, and there would be far more of them. The more experience a cruiser has, the more interest he has in a steel boat. The less he has, the less interest he has in steel. So disparaging steel as a choice is an indicator of naivety. That was clearly pointed out in Jimmy Cornell's book Modern Ocean Cruising. Long distance cruising Europeans are catching on, far more than in North America, where advertising often over rules common sense. ( sometimes the least common of all the senses)
You will find such people on the site I mentioned. I have had a huge influx of money recently, more than I know how to spend, so I don't have to sell anything. What I am motivated to do is provide simple, affordable solutions to people's boat problems, including accurate info on what I have spent my life doing and learning. I'm not surprised that those who want $150 an hour for such advice on things they have ZERO hands on experience with, attack me for offering experience based answers for free, on the subject. When I do, a designer who's posts are 95% self promotion, gets pissed off, which I find a compliment .

As Einstien said 
"The problem with smart people, is they sound like crazy people, to stupid people." Or words to that effect.

Ganley has some great deigns .It was his work which first got me interested in steel.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

Wow. Do some people prefer steel boats so to better protect their fragile egos? This forum reader prefers contributors who can calmly state their opinion, or the rare fact, once, without personal attacks.

It's my opinion that posts that are embroidered with lists of personal qualifications and credentials are always devoid of useful information.


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## goat (Feb 23, 2014)

oooh, oooh, ooooh, I'm so excited another epic thread has begun!

er, um....continue, I'll be quiet.

goat


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Brent Swain said:


> I have had a huge influx of money recently, more than I know how to spend, so I don't have to sell anything. What I am motivated to do is provide simple, affordable solutions to people's boat problems, including accurate info on what I have spent my life doing and learning. .


You could use some of the money to take out an advertisement on this site, then you wouldn't have to SPAM our threads. Then with the remainder you could hire Bob for a few hours as a design consultant.

Or you could just buy me a watermaker


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

chall03 said:


> You could use some of the money to take out an advertisement on this site, then you wouldn't have to SPAM our threads. Then with the remainder you could hire Bob for a few hours as a design consultant.
> 
> Or you could just buy me a watermaker


I have to agree with this, Brent will talk about his $20 roller furler, $1 heavy duty blocks and so forth. If you ask for details, he says buy my book. Robert Perry talks about details on his designs, and when asked (and even without being asked) provides detailed drawings. I think there is a big difference. One is Spam, the other is sharing a love of sailing with fellow nut jobs.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Wow, that's an amazing rant BS. Chill, relax, have some wine, eat an oyster, raw. Nobody is out to get you. There is plenty of room for all approaches to yachting,

I'm not so fortunate to have a "huge influx of money" and the people I know who are wealthy, and I know a few, would never, ever make a statement like that. They would say anything but that. BS is all about BS. But I do just fine. I work hard and I don't have to do ANYTHING "on a low budget". I'm very happy in my beach shack. If I had a "huge influx of money" I'd buy the $10,000 cartridge for my turntable I lust over. But I'll just have to be satisfied with my Scala cartridge for now.

Woe is me.

I've worked all today on a new 32'er that will be the little sister to my 43' carbon cutters. My client is an old time client and good friend. I need some Ibuprofen for the "mouse hand". It makes me feel satisfied to work on a project like this. It will far from a "low budget" project but if I'm half as good as I think I am it will be a wonderful custom boat.

For me it's all about the boat and not exercising personal demons. I don't understand where the anger comes in. I'll do my thing....you do yours. 

I stand by my theory. BS doesn't like tall people.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Miatapaul: That is very kind of you to say. I do enjoy sharing the fun of creating yachts.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I would just be happy if someone with ACTUAL experience building _*and cruising*_ one of the BS Yachts - *that wasn't BS himself* - would talk about how awesome they are. I listen and all I hear is crickets (and BS) and see "FOR SALE - _CHEAP!_" signs everywhere.

I mean - even Steve sold Silas Crosby.

As Einstien said 
"The problem with smart people, is they sound like crazy people, to stupid people."

Bob - I think BS thinks you're crazy.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> I would just be happy if someone with ACTUAL experience building _*and cruising*_ one of the BS Yachts - *that wasn't BS himself* - would talk about how awesome they are. I listen and all I hear is crickets (and BS) and see "FOR SALE - _CHEAP!_" signs everywhere.


I'm still happy for Brent to talk about his work and boats, Bob's are more my taste, but nonetheless I have no issue if Brent wants to contribute information and experience, whether you, I or anyone else agree with it is another matter.

What he has done in Spamming this thread, the interesting boat thread and others is however just flog his product in contravention of Salinet's rules and done it in a way that is snide and unpleasant.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm getting a SERIOUS blast of Deja Vu.

Wasn't all this said Ad Nauseum prior to Brent's vacation?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

SloopJonB said:


> I'm getting a SERIOUS blast of Deja Vu.
> 
> Wasn't all this said Ad Nauseum prior to Brent's vacation?


Indeed... and so, to another lockdown


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