# guns on a the boat of the 16 year old sailing around the world.



## SSBN506 (Apr 18, 2008)

Take a look at the post from Sunday, October 5, 2008 at Zac's Blog

I am not disputing weather this is good or not as i don't really care about gun issues aether way. What i do find interesting is he has one. I was under the understanding this is very difficult to do when going from country to country. Am i mistaken on this, is it common to bring one? I personally don't have any guns and probably never will living in Canada in a province with little crime and no interest in them. But i can understand why some people would want them. Sailing through pirate infested waters might be one.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

Normally the vessel's flag country laws apply on board and determine what may be carried. Handguns and handgun ammunition have a minimum age limit of 21 in the USA, so nominally he may not possess. I saw that entry in the blog as well and assumed that he (or his parents) put that in to ward off potential threats, regardless of whether he carried or not.


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

Guns?? 

Don't leave home without them!!


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## davidbaer (Nov 22, 2002)

*Guns on board*

Better to have it and not need it than the other way around.
I never leave the dock for more than a day sail without my Remington 12 gauge-loaded and secured.
Not much good at distance but the ker chunk of the slide, not to mention the effect at 10 yards, is probably enough to discourage all but the most determined bad guys


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## windward54 (Apr 12, 2000)

I don't carry one and never felt the need. And if one is heading to another country, you may find yourself in jail for a long time. I know Mexico has some of the toughest gun laws around. Get caught with guns or ammo, and you will be in prison. Not a pleasant thought.


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

My only comment is that like em or not; we really shouldn't KNOW about his gun on board. It seems to me that is a piece of information that should have been kept quiet by Zac and his "crew"


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Open carry is the best way to avoid getting robbed. 
IMO, he'd be crazy to sail around the world without a firearm. Goes for anyone else too. I'd rather be in jail, then dead.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Zanshin said:


> Handguns and handgun ammunition have a minimum age limit of 21 in the USA, so nominally he may not possess.


Not true. According to federal law he cannot BUY a handgun or handgun ammunition. But it is up to state law whether or not he can POSSESS one. Here in Colorado, for instance, my under-21 child cannot buy a gun for himself, but it is perfectly legal for me to buy one and give it to him as a gift.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Z-
"Normally the vessel's flag country laws apply on board and determine what may be carried. " On the high seas, yes, but that ends once you enter someone else's territorial waters. Guns, Playboy, bottle of rum...all problematic in some places.

"Handguns and handgun ammunition have a minimum age limit of 21 in the USA, so nominally he may not possess." Since when does the US have any federal permitting or carry laws for civilian handguns?? I thought that was another matter of state regulation, which is often way lower than 21.

To our Russian submariner: No, guns are not commonly carried by civilian sailors in international waters. They create many problems clearing in/out of countries run by repressive governments that get terriby upset at the mention of them, and lock people up if when they're upset about things like that.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

denverd0n - oops, you are absolutely correct regarding possession being State and purchase/sale being Federal law. I suppose the question is what the Federal laws on possession (and carry) are, as those would be applicable on a US flagged vessel in international waters.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

Hellosailer - that just means that customs will take the firearm during sojourn in the country, but has to return it to him (if it is legal for him to possess in his flagged country) upon leaving the country.

18 USC 922(b)(1), 27 CFR 478. 99(b) governs the 21 age limit for subgun calibers, 18 for long gun calibers.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"customs will take" Well, sure, IF it is properly declared. There have been published reports of various guns being returned in an obviously fired condition--raising the extra problem that it is out of your custody and you don't know what's been done with it. (Not to mention, cleaning it.[g])

And then, you have to return to the same port to clear OUT again with it, after picking it up during business hours, etcetera.

"18 USC 922(b)(1)," ROFL! So under state and federal laws, you may be required to serve at ages as low as 16, and you may be legally issued a sidearm and required to appear with it, ready for use. But, you have to ask Daddy or an officer to give you the bullets. Hmmm....

Maybe congresscritters should be required to read the entire USC and CFR and take a test (passing grade, 85%) before they are allowed to run for office. That'd sure keep a lot of the riffraff out of Congress!


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

We used to have issues selling .22s; we would have to ask (by law) whether it was for a handgun or a rifle and if the poor 18 year said "for a handgun" they couldn't purchase. Naturally, they would give a different answer when they came back the next week...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

If he lands in Portugal, (I believe Spain, Italy and France are the same), he will not be happy..and it's going to be a serious problem..

1) If he declares it, it will be immediately confiscated, and will be forwarded to a court, which in his case may even be more of a problem as he is under 18 years of age, which puts him in a minor's court, and maybe under the custody of the Social security until he reaches 18, meaning his parents will have to come and get him, after proof of parenting...time at which the father will be arrested on behalf of the son, for possession of an illegal firearm, brought illegally into the country by a minor. The boat will be immediately ceased and put on the dry, until court decides to release it..

2) If he doesn't declare it...(and IF, only IF) they find it, read 1) above, with the aggaravtion of sentence by concealing a firearm inside Portuguese waters, where they are illegal, unless dully registerd, operated by over 18 years of age, and MUST hold a valid gun carryin permit. Boat will be immediately confiscated..as above

Having the gun as part of the boat's equipment, may diminish the problem.

Now...he may, as part of a dully recognized event, have a gun, and they may colose their eyes, but he will need a lot of paper work to bring the gun into European Comunity waters..a lot of papaper work..

Our system is set up in such way that once you leave any marina you are outside customs, and unless your boat is of the country registration, everyone must clear customs on entrance. When I have foreigners in my boat, I have to declare them to customs when we leave the marina and arrive at another (not needed if you return to same marina)..

Now because foreigners need to come to the marina office on arrival, the NAVY and Maritime Police will board the boat and are freee to inspect at their will...They will find a gun..believe me..


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## huguley3 (May 7, 2007)

I always cringe when I see these threads in forums about firearms. I am going to weigh in on this one because I think there is more to this than guns on boats.

This kid is 16. I remember some of my thought processes at that age and I am pretty surprised that I managed to survive into adulthood. This goes for the idea that a 16 year old should not be out cruising around the world too. Even for a "grown up" 16 year old his judgement and lack of experience are going to get him into trouble. If he started blasting away that could have brought his trip to a quick and unpleasant end.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> This kid is 16. I remember some of my thought processes at that age and I am pretty surprised that I managed to survive into adulthood. This goes for the idea that a 16 year old should not be out cruising around the world too. Even for a "grown up" 16 year old his judgement and lack of experience are going to get him into trouble. If he started blasting away that could have brought his trip to a quick and unpleasant end.


The other side of course is that if he doesn't start blasting away he'll have a trip of a lifetime.


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## Redline4Life (Feb 4, 2007)

As someone who is preparing to sail offshore, the question has often been raised about taking a firearm along. The more I think about it though, the more I think it's a bad idea. For the guy who has his 12 guage locked and loaded and ready to go, I think you're asking for an accident. I think if you have a firearm, you are way more likely to get into trouble (not just in customs) than if you don't have one. Here in Canada, the only time I hear of a boater with a gun, it's usually because the person shot a hole in his boat and had to abandon ship!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I think the right way is ADAPT to the environment..
If I were American..you bet I'd have an AK 47..I mean..have you ever shot one??

I have..and even MG 34's..If I were American..I'd be in the NRA, hands down..

But I am not, so I adapt to my country..sorry no guns..

But beer and wine is cheaper than gasoline, no one tells me what to do and how to behave, and we have naked girls in our milk commercials..


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## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

Giulietta said:


> and we have naked girls in our milk commercials..


They aren't the ones supplying the milk are they? Sorry, I couldn't resist after hearing the whole Ben and Jerry's/PETA thing.

As for the original topic, I haven't read the full details of his planned voyage but if he does it right he might be able to pull it off without breaking any laws. Of course that might mean he has to stay in international waters the entire trip. Hope he has enough provisions


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

I can't think of a single "gun argument thread" that I've ever seen where the pro-gun side has tried to impose their views on the other side and make them carry while going off shore. The pro-gun side does get a little testy though (I'm one of them) when the anti's want to impose their views on us.


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## huguley3 (May 7, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> I think the right way is ADAPT to the environment..
> But beer and wine is cheaper than gasoline, no one tells me what to do and how to behave, and we have naked girls in our milk commercials..


Ooooh! I like naked girls and beer! I like going to italy and watching their commercials as well. I wish america was not so prudish and we could get some skin from our mass media... Oh well.

I wonder if the parents sent the kid to a gun handling/use of force class before giving him a hand cannon and sending him of to sail the world? I guess if I had kids these days I would be ecstatic that they wanted to do something besides stand around with their mouth hanging open watching tv.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

My son is now 20, so it was just 4 years ago that we experienced 16 together. Let me put it this way, bored 16 year olds do stupid things. Being alone on a boat, there seems to me to be a lot of time, to be bored.


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## huguley3 (May 7, 2007)

Freesail99 said:


> My son is now 20, so it was just 4 years ago that we experienced 16 together. Let me put it this way, bored 16 year olds do stupid things. Being alone on a boat, there seems to me to be a lot of time, to be bored.


Most of the women I have known seem to agree that mens judgement never really gets developed to a point where it can be called "good". When watching videos on the internet of males doing stupid things and then getting hurt. I usually get the response "boys are dumb". Even 40 year old men get lumped in as "boys". My general response of "too bad we own everything" seals my fate as having an underdeveloped judgment lobe as well.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

If you go onto the sight and read about how the 16 year old was raised 99% of us can only dream of ever having is level of skill and life experience


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## captbillc (Jul 31, 2008)

i was crew on a 50ft shannon cutter in november 1988 (main to bermuda to the virgins) the owner , who did not go along had a 12ga stainless steel shotgun and a 7.62mm army rifle aboard. i was an NRA member (he called me a gun nut, which i was not) he had me load a tracer every 3rd round in the rifle clips in case we got into a night engagement. when we stopped at bermuda i took them to the police and then picked them up when we left for the virgins. no hassle !


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## SSBN506 (Apr 18, 2008)

Boy I started a bit of a firestorm no pun intended. But my question was answered. I must say "what a slippery slope". I am not all that  well traveled just Canada, USA, Cuba, and the Dominican and not by boat. So if i were to solo around the world i would probable want to have a rifle with me. Would it do me any good. I dough it. Could it cause me a lot of problems? Probable. But my instinct sitting at my computer right now would be to bring one. And this is from someone how has no guns and probable never will. So i can understand why he would.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

you should see my other boat.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Giulietta said:


> If he lands in Portugal, (I believe Spain, Italy and France are the same), he will not be happy..and it's going to be a serious problem...


I should probably double-check in order to be certain, but I am about 99% sure that it is not a big deal in France. Indeed, in a general sense, France has some of the most liberal gun laws in all of Europe.

Yes, it will be a big problem if he does not declare it and it is found. Yes, if he does declare it then it will have to be locked up while he is in French waters. Yes, he will probably have to go back and clear out from the same office where he cleared in, in order to get the gun back. Other than that, though, the French are really not that uptight about guns. Make the declaration, do a little paperwork, voila! Pas de problème!


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Redline4Life said:


> For the guy who has his 12 guage locked and loaded and ready to go, I think you're asking for an accident.


No offense, but this is just utter nonsense. For anyone with a modicum of common sense and training a loaded shotgun on a boat is a LOT less dangerous than the inherent and inescapable dangers of simply going off-shore!


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Which pirate with a AK-47 and a RPG are you going to fend off with that 38mm piece of hardware. Maximum effective range is what, 50 feet? 

Add in a moving boat, moving target and it adds up to stupid. Even a basic hunting rifle can pick you off from 6x your range, operated by a kid who took sharp shooting lessons from Hollywood's hold the rifle sideways and shoot from the hip movies.

Two shots from a AK below your water line is enough to overcome most bilge pumps (one inch hole 2 feet down, 2600 gal's per hour, two of those and you'll be wishing you weren't carrying ANY lead onboard as bullets or ballast).

Once a boarder is on board, a taser is just as effective and a lot more fun to use on a invader. Heck you could rig a taser to shoot via a motion sensor into the back of an invader in the companionway - come back from your Rum and tater tots run and find a nice pool of shaking crying snot nosed pirate doing the dying cockroach dance. 
That's more fun than cleaning up brain matter from your cockpit.
It's even more fun to give 'em a couple of extra jolts on the way out.


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## SSBN506 (Apr 18, 2008)

chucklesR said:


> Once a boarder is on board, a taser is just as effective and a lot more fun to use on a invader. Heck you could rig a taser to shoot via a motion sensor into the back of an invader in the companionway -


Not to self, never raft up to your boat.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Not to worry, in the states it better to kill 'em than hurt 'em. No one left to sue you, and easier to dump a body if it's already dead.


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## SSBN506 (Apr 18, 2008)

chucklesR said:


> Not to worry, in the states it better to kill 'em than hurt 'em. No one left to sue you, and easier to dump a body if it's already dead.


In Canada our cab drivers go by that mantra. It seems to work for them.


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

I assume you meant 50yds with shot and 100yds with slugs not 50'. At what range could one identify that there is an actual threat that requires ones lethal force response? 100yds? 300yds? 500yds? How about at night? What range could one effectively engage a speed boat in the ocean rolling with the seas with any weapon? Excuse me, I just remebered that Chuckles is probably shooting off of the bench rest that is a factory option on his Gemini. LOL

My point is, I would rather have the option to defend myself with any multi-projectile firing weapon, rather than harsh words, a winch handle, flare gun and a pointy boat hook. I admit to not following the pirate thread much but understood they are looking for hostages and vessels to collect ransom from. What good would it do them to kill everyone and shoot below the waterline, sinking the vessel? Has this been happening a lot and I've missed it? Looking at the imaginary angle of a shot penetrating a hull 2' below water line, it would seem like the 7.62 round would have to travel through many feet of water maintaining enough energy to cause damamge. I am not a ballistics wizard but is that even possible? I could see it a few inches below waterline but two feet seems improbable.

Using Chuckles scenario of a defensive stand once the vessel is boarded by pirates at sea...again the shotgun seems like a good choice. The taser fires one shot and can only incapacitate one person at a time. "Hold on a minute bad guys #2,3,4... while I reload the taser cartridge or could you at least step within contact distance so that I may place the electrodes on you?" Now what are we going to do with a guy that is just stunned? Throw him over to drown anyway? Keep him on board and restrained? A person with some shotgun experience can expell a lot of deterrence in a short period of time, not nearly as much as an AK on full auto but I would prefer to control my own fate rather than let some lowlife make those decisions for me. It would seem that with the element of surprise, good tactical strategy and some good luck could put the odds in one's favor.

Oh the joy of running scenarios that I hope none of us ever need to write a first hand accounting of.



chucklesR said:


> Which pirate with a AK-47 and a RPG are you going to fend off with that 38mm piece of hardware. Maximum effective range is what, 50 feet?
> 
> Add in a moving boat, moving target and it adds up to stupid. Even a basic hunting rifle can pick you off from 6x your range, operated by a kid who took sharp shooting lessons from Hollywood's hold the rifle sideways and shoot from the hip movies.
> 
> ...


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## BillBrush (Jul 31, 2008)

I tend to stay out of debates along these lines, subscribing to the Theodore Roosevelt motto myself, but I'd like to throw in my view.

This is not some random 16 year-old kid. This is a young man who was judged skilled enough and mature enough to attempt a solo circumnavigation of the globe. As a parent I would do everything in my power to prepare my son for such a journey, and I if I judged that having a firearm on board in case of emergency was warranted, I would then make sure my son was qualified to operate said firearm. I would also consult with someone conversant with the various firearm laws in the countries along the route so that I would what potential pitfalls awaited.

I guess my point is we should trust that his parents have made the best decision with the information they had when they made it, accept that we don't have anywhere close to the full story, and realize that we're in no position to second-guess that decision. When you're in the hot seat for that decision you may make a different call, and that's your right.

My personal decision is that if I were to go on a cross-oceanic cruise, I would have firearms with me. They have more uses than just fending off human predators, and I might want to anchor and go ashore at some point. 

Bill


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## SSBN506 (Apr 18, 2008)

Just to clarify my question was not should he have a gun or are guns good or bad. It was just could he have one doing what is is doing at his age and where he is going. I hope this wont be a war between the guns are the solution to our problems and the guns are the cause of them people.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Good points FarCry, 
never said I'd favor a taser for handling real bad guys, just casual drop in's with bad attitudes 

I said 50 feet, not yards. I shot expert in the USMC, and USN. I can hit man sized target at 50 feet all day long, off hand with a 9mm. On solid ground. Given a 15 round clip I can probably do it on a moving boat at one in the clip.

I actually had not thought about a bullet having to go through the water to make that hole 2 feet down. Mythbusters did a trial on that - found that a bullet from a 30 ought rifle does not in fact have the force to penetrate a body, and surely not a inch of FG.

How fast would you throw the shot gun over the side if faced by a RPG at 100 yards?


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## BillBrush (Jul 31, 2008)

FarCry said:


> I Looking at the imaginary angle of a shot penetrating a hull 2' below water line, it would seem like the 7.62 round would have to travel through many feet of water maintaining enough energy to cause damamge. I am not a ballistics wizard but is that even possible? I could see it a few inches below waterline but two feet seems improbable.


If you accept the testing that Mythbusters do as reliable, and I tend to accept it, then generally speaking the answer is "No". They found that high-velocity rifles like the AK-47, 7.62, and even the .50 cal Barret have their projectile break up immediately upon impact with the water, and carry almost no kinetic energy past 2-3 feet. A low-velocity projectile like a .45 ACP, or a shotgun slug will go much farther, but have less penetrating power. For holing a boat I would recommend a shotgun slug if using a hand-held firearm, or a 20mm cannon if you have a deck-mount. Torpedoes work well too.


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## runner (Aug 25, 2008)

Load it slug, 000, and then a flare cartridge. About 6 shells in a full tube on a short gun. Let them get close, slug thru hull to sink their boat, buckshot to sweep the deck and then the flare to light up your target. Do it again. Duck and reload as quick as you can in case they are the dense types we see in the news these days! Reload with slugs or buckshot. 
I am sorry, but if their momma did not teach them manners, guess that means it is my job if they decide to attack me! I am not a sheeple.


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## Cruisingdreamspress (Apr 8, 2008)

I read of Zac's encounter with an unidentified boat bearing down on him as he headed for Cocos Keeling Atoll. I had a similar experience in the same area on MY solo voyage around the world. 

The thought of pirates scared me to death. I had no weapon on board. I called them repeatedly on the radio. No answer. The vessel veered off at the last moment. My heart pounded for an hour. If I had a rifle I might have fired at them. 

I spoke to a fellow cruiser the next day on ham radio. He had cruised several times through out Indonesia. I told him of my 'Pirate' encounter. To my surprise he laughed. He said fishermen in the area are superstitious. If they don't catch fish they believe an evil spirit has come aboard their vessel. If they see another vessel they charge at it, come as close as they can and force the evil spirit to jump on the other boat.

Months later I did buy a AK-47 in Yemen after good friends and fellow cruisers were attacked off that coast. I later got rid of the weapon when I reached the Med. 

The pros and cons of carrying firearms has been well hashed over in these threads and in the final analysis it is an individuals decision. I would only add one caveat...more often then not... boats approaching you at sea are either fishermen, someone wanting to say hi or someone needing assistance...so please don't blow someone away unless they fire on you first.


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## genieskip (Jan 1, 2008)

I have just returned from a trip to Canada (Nova Scotia). Customs there was relatively simple but the one thing they kept returning to was - do you have firearms aboard. The marinas had big signs basically saying if you have firearms aboard and you do not declare them and turn them over while you are here you will be in big legal trouble. 

I think the whole matter depends on a number variables. In most of the world you can easily end up in jail if you have a gun. I am not discussing the philosophical pros and cons, I am stating a fact. If you are traveling in pirate infested waters that is one thing but if you are going to Canada or Europe I think it is certainly not worth the legal risk since those waters are similar to ours in terms of safety. There were no pirates in Nova Scotia.


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## BillBrush (Jul 31, 2008)

chucklesR said:


> How fast would you throw the shot gun over the side if faced by a RPG at 100 yards?


It would be interesting to find out if an RPG round would even detonate on impact with a fiberglass hull. They do require a good impact to initiate the shaped charge. Regardless I would be more worried about a deck mounted gun than a hand-carried RPG. RPG's aren't super-accurate to start with and I doubt if today's pirates have anything like military quality training with their weapons. They'd probably be equally likely to fry their buddies or their own boat with the backblast than hit my boat. Those have something like a 50+ foot backblast on them. A full-auto crew weapon on a pintle would be fairly worrisome.

Maybe I'll send this into Mythbusters as a myth to be tested.

Bill


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Off the coast of Somali you will be out gunned no matter what you are carrying from the sporting good store. 
In order to bring yourself up to grade to where you can protect yourself from the Somali pirates you will need either a M-2 MG firing .50 cal rounds or an M-60 Mg firing 7.62 mm rounds. Either weapon will help if you see them in time to set up the weapon, load and fire.
But many governments are paranoid about any kind of gun, so leave yours at home if you are going outside the waters of the USA.


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

chucklesR said:


> Good points FarCry,
> never said I'd favor a taser for handling real bad guys, just casual drop in's with bad attitudes
> 
> I said 50 feet, not yards. I shot expert in the USMC, and USN. I can hit man sized target at 50 feet all day long, off hand with a 9mm. On solid ground. Given a 15 round clip I can probably do it on a moving boat at one in the clip.
> ...


I thought the discussion previous to my response was about defending oneself from pirates on the open sea with a shotgun???? That is why I put in the longer distances and dismissed the Taser option. I must have gotten confused in all the jumping around between weapons and scenarios.

To answer you last question Chuckles, regarding disposal of a shotgun if faced by an RPG at 100yds...If they where 100yds away and knew I had a shotgun then I am guilty of using very poor tactics and have lost any "surprise" advantage that I could have held. Showing the weapon so early means that I have already fallen behind the loop and the odds are even more stacked against me now to the point where this scenario should really be un-winable. I can't think of any reason I could gain an edge by showing them that I... #1 have a weapon and #2 that it is very range restrictive. The first thing they should see is a slight muzzle flash and a very loud noise at a very close range. It sort of goes back to my original premise, in that, the pirates are there to get something. Right? They want either hostages, vessels, money or all of the above. How are they going to acquire any of those things if they blast away and destroy everything with an RPG? Now they are left with nothing but one less RPG round, less boat fuel and a wasted opportunity. That doesn't make sense to me from their point of view.

I wish I would have seen the experiment on Mythbusters.

Beside Chuckles, you could put your speedy cat on a reach and leave the bad guys in your wake.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

Real life encounter in 2005


> At that point I, Rod Nowlin aboard Mahdi and armed with a 12 gage shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot, started shooting into their boat. I forced them to keep their heads down so that they could not shoot at us. I am not sure I hit anyone at that point although I could see the driver of the boat crouched down behind a steering console. After firing 3 shots at them their engine started to smoke and I swung around to shoot at the boat ahead. At that point, I saw Jay Barry on Gandalf ram that boat amidships almost cutting it in two and turning it almost completely over. I turned back around to shoot again at the boat behind Mahdi and that is when they turned away from Mahdi and were heading toward the stern of Gandalf. Gandalf was beside us, about 100 feet away. The bow of the pirate's boat came right up against Gandalf's stern and two men stood up on the bow to board Gandalf. That was a serious and probably fateful error on their part. I shot both of them. That boat then veered away and I shot the driver, although I am not sure of the outcome because they were farther away and I did not knock him down like the other two.


The two cruisers successfully defended themselves and got away.

http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2005-03-14-1


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## runner (Aug 25, 2008)

There are many ways to repell boarders. If the situation is in doubt, get your biggest tea glass full of diesel or gas and stand there grinning and waving like an idiot while watching the situation. If it looks bad, toss a cup of fuel over on them and point your flare gun. If you made a mistake, there is a mess to clean up. If there is no mistake, then they get to clean the mess out of their pants after they swim to shore. 
Steel jacketed military rounds do not normally fragment hitting water at any speed normal for shoulder fired military calibers. In fact, they are often very little deformed after hitting clay banks. They are of little usage hunting because they poke holes like a large ice pick. Even if they are deadly, the animal dies much later unless the bullet hits heavy bone. They are supposed to do this for several reasons. Penetration of barriers and multiple combatants. A dead soilder needs a bag. A wounded live soilder needs a medic, transport, triage nurse, a doctor or maybe four, care nurses, housing, food, medicines, and bandages. Wounding an enemy soldier is much better than killing them out right in a military campaign. Because of this, the normal military rounds carried thru out the world are very poor defensive weapons when compared to civilian hunting rounds. 
The lady that got shot three times by an AK loaded with military hardball in one of our post offices testified to congress about the assault gun ban. She flat out told them to let the bad guys have all those AK's they want. Like she said, if the nut had been using her granddad's 30-30, the first bullet would have killed her dead. With three hits from an AK she was there to tell them about it. 
I don't care if they have rocket launchers and missles. I am a grown man making my own way and I am not a Sheeple. I will go down fighting, and if everyone else would simply do the same, there would be no pirates in somalia. Man is a omnivorous pack predator with binocular range finding vision. Look up exactly which animal group that puts us in. Never believe you can trust some stupid societal rules to over come the basic nature of at least 10 percent of the population anywhere in the world. Where they don't act openly they have been eliminated thru violence, get smacked so hard and regularly that they hide in the shadows, or the people stand as men against them as a whole. The wolves are welcome to the sheep. I am not a Sheeple! If you think I am kidding, you are wrong. It hasn't been that long since I spread my arms wide to offer a 12 guage toting nut a clear shot if he was going to shoot and then walked to a phone to have him arrested. Somewhere some idiot put forth the idea that people are not responsible for their own safety. I have better sense. 
Besides, if they are gonna hold me for ransom and kill me if no one pays, I might as well get a few licks in on my way down!


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## BillBrush (Jul 31, 2008)

runner said:


> T
> Steel jacketed military rounds do not normally fragment hitting water at any speed normal for shoulder fired military calibers.


The Mythbusters tests were with full-metal jacket military rounds, not civilian. They fragmented almost immediately upon impact. You're welcome to perform you're own tests of course.

Bill


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## runner (Aug 25, 2008)

Bill, I tested them almost daily for a couple of years, including being on the pistol team on Kelly Hill. Myth busters is BS most of the time. You can empty a 16 into a mudbank and almost reload the bullets when recovered. Myth busters can say what they want, but the rounds are made that way for exactly why I said they were. Actual testing was done to make sure they did not deform in 14 inches of solid beef. Believe who you will. Mythbusters or the government, the army, the navy, the marines, and everyone else whose life depends on those rounds to stay alive. Better yet, tell the lady that testified to congress that mythbusters says she is dead! Don't tell me tho. I have tracked and dispatched game poked all full of holes with full metal jackets days before. No one from mythbusters was there to help!


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## BillBrush (Jul 31, 2008)

runner said:


> Bill, I tested them almost daily for a couple of years, including being on the pistol team on Kelly Hill. Myth busters is BS most of the time. You can empty a 16 into a mudbank and almost reload the bullets when recovered. Myth busters can say what they want, but the rounds are made that way for exactly why I said they were. Actual testing was done to make sure they did not deform in 14 inches of solid beef. Believe who you will. Mythbusters or the government, the army, the navy, the marines, and everyone else whose life depends on those rounds to stay alive. Better yet, tell the lady that testified to congress that mythbusters says she is dead! Don't tell me tho. I have tracked and dispatched game poked all full of holes with full metal jackets days before. No one from mythbusters was there to help!


Flesh is not the same as water.

I have fired FMJ rounds, and am familiar with the properties thereof. They are remarkable in their durability. I also saw the footage of them fired into a pool of water and have no reason to suspect that it was faked or altered in any way. It was not the result any of the people on the show, nor this viewer was expecting, but there it is. I have been watching Mythbusters since its first episode and I have never seen anything that I regarded as scientifically questionable. If anything they go out of their way to adhere to the scientific principles of hypothesize, test, retest, and form conclusion based strictly on the evidence. Regardless it has little to no bearing on the topic of the thread unless you care to offer your boat up for testing. My hypothesis is that you would not be able to put a hole in the hull at more than an inch or so below the waterline with a high-power rifle at 100 yards, let alone 2 feet. For that matter you wouldn't even need a boat, simply put a target of some kind in the lake and try to hit it. Maybe a 4x8 sheet of plywood.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

*Just an FYI on the Mythbusters experiments*

I won't weigh in on the topic of carrying arms, but this might be somewhat interesting: Shooting into water? How deep do bullets go? - Yahoo! Answers


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## runner (Aug 25, 2008)

Yep, the same rules used to prove bumbles can't fly!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)




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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Is your boat the Macgreggor?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

No..the Mac is the pirate's boat....you know better than that......they just used a boat that looks like mine on that movie..Hollywood..you know...

Now...what boat would pirates use, short of a power boat, to catch a fast sailboat???

There you go...and if you answer is a cat or a tri..no good..all the sailboat has to do to run away from them in sail close-hauled....

Yep..Mac's the choice of the distinguished pirate...


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## ElectricalSailor (Sep 5, 2008)

Giulietta said:


> 1) If he declares it, it will be immediately confiscated, and will be forwarded to a court, which in his case may even be more of a problem as he is under 18 years of age, which puts him in a minor's court, and maybe under the custody of the Social security until he reaches 18, meaning his parents will have to come and get him, after proof of parenting...time at which the father will be arrested on behalf of the son, for possession of an illegal firearm, brought illegally into the country by a minor. The boat will be immediately ceased and put on the dry, until court decides to release it..


Can you provide a link to actually back this up?
(Either a news article where it has actually happened or the law itself.)


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sorry, I can't...I can try to find...but I talk to the Maritime Police there a lot, and one time, I went there to ask what were the licensing requirements for a US vessel coming in, as far as skipper license, and the gun issue was mentioned by the Maritime police I spoke to..only because they know about US vessels carrying guns...

I will have a look, but I doubt I can find...

But in a few weeks I go there again and ask them exactly how it works, ok?


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

Noonsite has information about clearing at different countries. Here's a link to Portugal, but I don't see the firearm issue addressed.

http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Portugal/?rc=Formalities#Customs

While neighboring Spain says that they must be declared.

http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Spain/?rc=Formalities#Clearance


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

OK, I found something, in Portuguese, and seems directed to boats in general especially boats for scuba diving and so on...

it says this :

h) Deter, transportar, manter a bordo ou exercer a pesca com armas de fogo, substâncias explosivas, venenosas ou tóxicas, corrente eléctrica ou por outros processos não previstos no presente diploma;

Translation:

h) (...it is forbiden to..) Hold, transport or maintain on board or fish with fire arms, explosives, toxic substances, electrical mechanisms, and other procedures not speciefied in this law document

I googled "law+boat+gun" and showed this site, which I can't see where it is from, but obviously by the Government,,

http://faolex.fao.org/docs/texts/por23464.doc.

I will try more..


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

erps said:


> Noonsite has information about clearing at different countries. Here's a link to Portugal, but I don't see the firearm issue addressed.
> 
> http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Portugal/?rc=Formalities#Customs


Erps, there is a line there that says : Firearms must be declared..

The problem is that he is a minor, and to be able to hold on to the gun, under our law he needs a licence to carry firearm...otherwise is like driving a car with no licence...


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> The problem is that he is a minor, and to be able to hold on to the gun, under our law he needs a licence to carry firearm...otherwise is like driving a car with no licence...


Oops, I missed that on Portugal's informaiton sheet, but noticed it on the Spain's information sheet. I certainly see the conflict, but I also see that while the citizens of Britain are not allowed to possess firearms, I believe an American coming into the country on a boat would be required to declare it and then seal it or turn it over to customs during their stay.

Here is an article that discusses international laws concerning carrying which concludes:


> In practical terms and with proper planning, the carriage of firearms on a yacht should be trouble free. It provides a yacht with another option in the event of an attack where all else fails. Again, it is matter for each individual to decide upon.
> 
> Phillip Cable LLM
> 
> Director, Maritime Asset Security and Training (MAST) Ltd


http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2005-12-09-3/view


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I'll call them tomorrow...and clear all...smallest thing I can do...


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

runner said:


> Bill, I tested them almost daily for a couple of years, including being on the pistol team on Kelly Hill. Myth busters is BS most of the time. You can empty a 16 into a mudbank and almost reload the bullets when recovered. Myth busters can say what they want, but the rounds are made that way for exactly why I said they were. Actual testing was done to make sure they did not deform in 14 inches of solid beef. Believe who you will. Mythbusters or the government, the army, the navy, the marines, and everyone else whose life depends on those rounds to stay alive. Better yet, tell the lady that testified to congress that mythbusters says she is dead! Don't tell me tho. I have tracked and dispatched game poked all full of holes with full metal jackets days before. No one from mythbusters was there to help!


A mudbank or a slab of beef is not water, it contains water but that does not make it water. When fired into water they clearly fragmented. These were copper jacketed rounds though. When I was in the USAF I don't recall seeing any steel rounds...At least less than 20mm.


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

On the subject of a 16 year old carrying a gun, it's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I was taught the proper use and care of guns when I was 10 years old, and those lessons stuck hard for my entire life. And as for outgunning pirates, you don't have to, just show you're armed and most will happily turn away and find an esier target. If they don't, and they still come after you then it makes no difference, but I would rather try then let them steal my **** and rape my wife.


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## BillBrush (Jul 31, 2008)

runner said:


> Yep, the same rules used to prove bumbles can't fly!


<sigh>

Despite the frivolousness of this reply, I thank you in that it prompted me to look up this little bit of folklore.

The short version of it is that the supposed claim that they can't fly is based on an erroneous model which has since been corrected.

Here's a selection of links that reference it:

Bumblebee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.bumblebee.org/faq.htm
Ivars Peterson's MathLand March 31, 1997

It's a good day when I learn something new. 

Bill


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Jeez - isn't it obvious? Just continually wear a 250-gallon trash bag over your body and fill it with...yes...water! Poof. Pirate-proof. I mean - it's not like rocket science guys. I did it on MY circumnav and look at me (and my book and 6 volume set of DVDs and pirate-proof sailing attire all for sale on my website).

PS - Damn straight he should have a gun. Trigger up first - then ask questions.


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## vadimgo (Feb 23, 2007)

Alex,

dont wont to disrespect you, but ...
- Is it not the Finland a EU country too? 
- As far as I know, even some of the less civilyzed countries recognize the difference between a "Sporting" ot "Hunting" firearm, and the one for hm... military type...
- Local laws apply to the use of the firearm in the country (wich usually means declaring it, and most likely, having it locked at some custom/police office). this kid does not intent to buy illegal firearm in Portugal, nor use it on the streets of your town, so no laws broken, no Police, no Social Services...
If there is some proof that he legally posess a hunting firearm,
I believe it could be broken, stolen or damaged by some incompetent officer at worst. 
Still can not see why he would have any legal consequences.


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## runner (Aug 25, 2008)

Military rounds are plated with material softer than the steel rifling in the barrel to provide a surface to wear instead of the rifling wearing as the bullet moves down the barrel. The Jackets are steel. They are not copper. Again, the older 30'06 military rounds would penetrate a 24 inch block of solid oak and the exit hole would be very little bigger than the entrance. If you want to experiment, at least test the ammo you are talking about! That is the way mythbusters operates. They push agendas, not science. 
Yes, many countries treat military calibers different than they do sporting calibers. This has nothing to do with population safety. It is just an attempt to keep the guns that you can get boat loads of ammo for anywhere in the world out of their citizens hands. It is about protecting the government, not the people. Just like the so called assault gun ban here. They went thru all that trouble to protect us from guns that had been used in fewer crimes that year than claw hammers had been! It was never about protecting citizens. It was about removing the guns that were a threat to government forces if they decide to treat the sheep bad enough to make them rise up. It was a wasted effort because sheep never rise up! Don't be a sheeple!


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

SSBN506 said:


> I hope this wont be a war between the guns are the solution to our problems and the guns are the cause of them people.


Futile hope. Any mention of guns is bound, on some level, to devolve to that.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

genieskip said:


> The marinas had big signs basically saying if you have firearms aboard and you do not declare them and turn them over while you are here you will be in big legal trouble.


Yep. That is true in almost all countries. The key, though, is IF YOU DO NOT DECLARE THEM! If you DO declare them, and comply with all legal requirements, then in MOST countries it is not that big of a deal.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Giulietta said:


> The problem is that he is a minor, and to be able to hold on to the gun, under our law he needs a licence to carry firearm...


But the point is that he would NOT be holding onto the gun. It would be locked up and inaccessible to him while he is in your waters. That's the whole point of declaring it.

It would then be returned to him when he leaves Portugal and is therefore no longer subject to your laws. This is the normal way that guns on-board are dealt with in countries that do not allow possession of such.


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## Redline4Life (Feb 4, 2007)

Wow, some of you have thought about this a lot. Our thoughts have been, if they see you have a gun, you're dead. You're probably out numbered and out gunned. One thought however, every boat usually has lots of liquor aboard right? So...although this may be blasphemous, what about molotof cocktails. That's a pretty devistating blow!
Besides all this though I had no idea so many sailors out there had guns. Please keep them out of Canada!


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