# Nobody's buying boats?



## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

As I search for the boat I'll buy, I kept running into things that I originally assumed were just typical pushy salesmen ...

However, after a recent conversation, I'm wondering if things have been unusual for the past 6 months or so. The conversation was with a broker (I'm going to look at one of his boats this weekend) and he basically said that this is the worst year he's ever had as a broker in the 20 years he's been doing it. His opinion is that young people aren't sailing, and therefore aren't buying boats. He blamed it on video games or some similar "damn kids and your rock and roll" thing.

This is a broker whose territory is the great lakes, specifically Ohio, I believe, but I'm not 100% sure how far his region spans.

So, I'm curious, do people feel that purchases of sailboats is terribly down recently? Is this just a regional thing, or just this one broker having a bad year? As I mentioned, I've felt that other brokers/sellers I've talked to have been pushy, but I just wrote that up to typical pushy salesmen.

Any insights or thoughts? Are other people seeing this (such as folks here who are trying to sell a boat?)


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I can't say what that guy's story is, but the brokers I know around here swear last year was a very good year and that this year has started off well. The one thing that they said is that there seems to be a shortage of good clean used boats. They claim lots of buyers, no sellers. People seem to be holding onto their boats longer than they used to.

I have also noticed that boats that I am following seem to stay on the market for a shorter time. 

Jeff


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Weird, I'm on the great lakes and I sold a 35 footer, multiple offers on the first day, it went to a young family. Then I bought a 21 footer and was so worried somebody would beat me to it I drove down and made an offer the same day. 

Some boats are selling well. The boats I'm interested in tend to be older, unique and not terribly expensive, maybe it's a different storey with newer or more expensive boats.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Didn’t know you were selling your Fantasia Arcb … she’s such a great boat. 

I’ve been hearing this story about the decline in sailing for years now. The blame is usually placed on “the damn kids today…”. I’ve not confirmed if it’s true or not, but I suspect it to be the case. 

However, I would not put the blame on “kids today” who would rather play with computers than boats. I think it’s simple economics. These “kids today” have it a lot harder, economically speaking, than previous generations, particularly the Baby Boomers. They are poorer, with fewer prospects for good jobs and careers. They are working harder and longer, in more precarious jobs. And any sense of long-term security, through descent benefits and a pension, is all but gone.

So yeah, I can believe there is a decline in boat sales due to younger folk not buying. When you have trouble paying the necessary bills, with little expectation for long-term financial security, you’re certainly not going to be buying boats.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

In the last year I've seen several mid-price (200k+) boats that have been for sale for some years, sell down here. As we're so far away from the US that means that the buyers were able to pony up an extra few grand just to inspect the boat.
I'm guessing that there will be a bit of a run in the US on liveaboard, cruise worthy, sailing vessels, by those unhappy with the direction the current administration seems to be heading.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I believe well maintained older boats (depreciation has run it's course) will hold or increase in value.
The boats left without care will be used up until they make no sense to own.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Marine trade reports indicate that year over year new boat purchases are going to be up substantially over last year. Some are suggesting they could hit record levels this year... If a broker is suggesting it is that bad then its either a local issue, or a broker issue.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

My little lake has 50 moorings on it. In previous years fewer than 40 got used. This year it's beyond capacity and some people didn't make it through the lottery system and will have to find another lake.

Small sample size and small boats, but that's a 25% increase in the number of boats.


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## jongleur (Mar 16, 2013)

Broker I talked to in Puget Sound said in the
lower priced boats <$50,000, market is about
as slow as he has seen in 4 decades. Boats
I follow have been staying on the market for
months. I tend to agree that the middle class
is being squeezed and is falling behind.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

For about 20 years, give or take, I have watched the sailboat market change. To me, it's a maritime version of Gresham's Law (bad money drives out the good). As the number of knowledgeable buyers slowly shrinks, along with the numbers of new higher-quality boats, there's little left but the inexpensive brands that are brutally built down to the least cost that will last only through the first owner. 
They are designed and engineered for "second home" usage first and sailing ability second. The good news is that the new boat market has stayed alive, and hopefully the buyers are savvy enough to realize what they are getting - and not getting - for their money.
Then there's the valid argument that the middle class is shrinking, slowly and steadily. 
And the younger potential audience is also seduced early to a "virtual" life rather than a a "real" life outside and on the water. While newer generations may seem to have less money, they also choose to spend quite large amounts on their digital lifestyle things. It's _priorities_, as one might say.
An aside, and strictly a "geezer" note: while we had very little spare $ in our early marriage days, we bought a trailerable sailboat right after building a rather small house on a small lot. No big-screen TV and very little $ spent on movies or diners out.
Again, it's all about priorities.

Subjective Ruminations served up, regularly, accuracy not guaranteed!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> ....These "kids today" have it a lot harder, economically speaking, than previous generations, particularly the Baby Boomers. They are poorer, with fewer prospects for good jobs and careers. They are working harder and longer, in more precarious jobs. And any sense of long-term security, through descent benefits and a pension, is all but gone......


There is some truth to that, but it's exaggerated and there is more to it. The idea of a pension is a fairly modern concept and there have been sailors for a long, long time. I grant that one will spend more of their disposable income, if they do not feel the pressure to save for a retirement. Makes sense.

What's missing is that the younger generation diverts significant disposable income to subscription services, like cable, internet, smartphones, etc. My son even pays the vig not to get Pandora commercials. WTF? None of that existed for my generation and we used the funds for other pleasures, like our first boat. Their generation is also choosing to go on expensive vacations and buy brand new cars, much more frequently than mine did at their age. Add up all those costs and it would easily allow my kids generation to own a boat instead. They choose to spend their money otherwise.

While anecdotal, my grandparents had a boat, my parents had a boat, I have a boat, my kids do not seem likely to get a boat. They love coming out with us, but my son acknowledges he doesn't want the commitment, the work involved, etc. That sounds like a generation who has a different take on things. His choices may change over time, but he has a good job and the disposable income to get started, if he was interested in making it a priority. I literally cancelled my cable TV subscription in my late 20s to buy my first new car. Their gen wouldn't dream of it.

There is another factor I've recently come to blame in the States, at least our neck of the woods. Shop class (ie technical skills like carpentry, metal work, etc) were eliminated from the school curriculum between my generation and my kids. Overall, my kids generation seems to be confounded by mechanical things. I changed my own oil in my car until I was in my 30s. My kids haven't the slightest idea how it's done. All shop class did for us was give us the courage to face these things. I've tried, without success, to be the substitute. It's different for kids to experiment in front of their parents than among a class of novices. If you have zero mechanical skills at their age, it's near impossible to own a boat. None of, even with pensions, could afford to pay someone else to work on our first boat.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Even though some comments stray from the Question the point remains there are more things in the world today to catch young peoples attention than when I was coming up. When was the last time you saw any advertising on sailing anything, its because the marketers don't see the return. So as a general trend its not out there like basic junk marketing is, little impact maybe in the grand scheme. I do agree with Minnies comments on a hands on world dwindling, Sailing as a sport is as hands on as you get and in a disposable world new people don't come up fixing everything like we did so they can't and wouldn't dream of something as complicated as a Sailboat. I hope the comments on good clean Boats being hard to find being true, and I'm sure they are as mine will be one of them when the time comes. It always amazes me the number of unused boats in all Marinas even the Boat owners aren't using them.
General trends are dwindling indeed, no research to back that up just a gut feeling. There are a handful on youngsters on the forums and I encourage that every chance I get, but I think mostly older.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

BillMoran said:


> His opinion is that young people aren't sailing, and therefore aren't buying boats. He blamed it on video games or some similar "damn kids and your rock and roll" thing.


Hahaha! That's always been an excuse for some, to blame their problems on the new generation. Some of the Michaels (Meathead) of the baby boom generation, have become Archie Bunkers.

The waiting lists are growing in my harbor and largely - it's kids that have benefitted from some of the really cheap boats available. There are so many cheap boats and the supply is growing.

I can't say on new boats. They (industry) just aren't making many (any), new production boats in my region, that have a big following.

Kids were never a large factor in the new boat market, for any generation.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

The broker I am dealing with, who has been in the business for more than 40 years, said that the last two years have been very strong. His business is in southern Ontario but sells and buys boats much more widely.


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## Aimlessness (Apr 22, 2017)

Here in the Chesapeake the broker from whom I bought my boat last year is so busy her company hired a second broker to work with her. What I noticed during the purchase process is that most of the purchasers are in my age group 50+ many, in fact, looked to be 60+. I think all of the points made about the economy and young people not having the interest or financial ability to buy a sailboat are accurate. I read an article a couple months ago in Sail about the declining number of cruisers.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I can add that I know a broker in Newport pretty well that claims to have had a record year in the last season. 

He also claims, as the baby boomers begin to age out, there will be a lot of good deals on boats that were heavily modified with electronic everything. Power stuff has extended their sailing lives, but not forever.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

We had our first boat in our mid 30's. A 22' pocket cruiser. Wow was that fun. It was the escape from work, the connection with the ocean, it was important to us. By then we had a house, decent jobs, and a couple of cars...all that we "owned" but the bank owned us . It's what we did back then.

There is an argument that the future is not about ownership. Young people are happy renting the place they live, leasing a car (or better ride sharing and ultimately pressing a button on their iPhone for a self driving car to arrive at their house to take them to x), doing virtual stuff, owning less....valuing experience over ownership. Is this wrong? No, it's just different. There is little doubt in terms of capital efficiency that ownership isn't always the best use of capital. Particularly when your talking about rapidly depreciating assets that gobble money to maintain like yachts.

What they may miss is: there is a feeling that you get when you maintain, repair, navigate, sail, power, and get someplace in your own vessel based on your own abilities. There is a freedom to this and self determination. It is more than experiencing sailing, it's doing it, the whole thing. Somehow a sunset is better from the deck of your own boat, that you got there, that you maintained, that you got through the fog bank, that you varnished the teak, that ......

Somehow that's all much more real for me than any experience that is managed by technology or other people. Somehow that's better than any organized activity. Yea, I don't go on bus tours or cruise ships. No appeal. Wonder how many sailors feel the same?

Maybe it's because we weren't carted off to one group experience after another as kids. We organized our own sand lot games. We played touch football in the street, time out for cars. We went off the play in the neighborhood and self organized activities. Nothing was virtual, and little was organized for us.

Yea, I know, I'm getting old and sounding like an old man. Guilty as charged. Every generation has a similar set of complaints about the next.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Lots of boats here on the Chesapeake are now seemingly being sold. 'Quality' boats that have 'sat around' during the recent 8 year depression are now being readily snapped-up.

A possible reason for this market change could be the impending drastic personnel cuts scheduled for the federal government bureaucracy in Washington, DC and its 'bedroom' communities may be producing a lot of 'reduced prices' and 'motivated' boat owners.

On the other side of the coin, many marinas especially those in 'out of the way' locations and away from sailing Annapolis/DC/Solomons Is. 'hot spots' continue to be at only ~80-85% occupancy ... and there's lots of 'marina deals' available at those more remote locations if one can 'negotiate'.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I agree that the factors are complex. It’s not simply economics, lifestyle, aptitude, skills or desire. These factors are all intertwined. The so-called sharing economy has come about, not b/c millennial were born with different wiring than their parents. They “share” b/c they can’t afford to buy. And as we all do, they turn this reality into positive life stories. So now, the cultural mythology is that 'the kids today' are happy to live precariously, jumping from job to job, or more likely contract to contract, with no security and no obligations. 

There is truth to this, but again, it is more complicated than the stories we tell ourselves.

The reality is we are living through the great reversal of “new deal” economics and politics. It is happening in all developed countries, although the English-speaking ones are moving faster down this hill. Masses of people sailing off in smallish boats for months or years at a time requires a relatively affluent middle class. This is why you don’t see many people from third-world or developing countries out in the anchorages. 

But with the return to the historic normal of the economy structured with few lords and many surfs (a la Piketty’s analysis), I think the era of mass middle class cruising is coming to an end.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

capecodda said:


> We had our first boat in our mid 30's. A 22' pocket cruiser. Wow was that fun. It was the escape from work, the connection with the ocean, it was important to us. By then we had a house, decent jobs, and a couple of cars...all that we "owned" but the bank owned us . It's what we did back then.


I bought my first sailboat(23') in my mid 30's too. Even used, it was a sizable $ at that time for me. In fact, I didn't know any 'kids' who bought boats that size back then, any of my sailing friends were also in their 30's and 40's.

Shortly after we married, we upped our boat size to 28'. That too was a sizable $, but we were both doing very well. We bought it to take off for a year(owned and didn't sell our house, like so many we met, did).

We did the typical snowbird - down the east coast to the islands, exodus. We met tons of people doing the same.

Guess what, there weren't any kids doing it. 

We were on the younger side; the average age was about 40 doing the east coast snowbird run, in the late 80's.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Sold a couple of entry level dinghies and one 18ft catamaran in the last 12 months or so. All 3 to people getting into sailing for the first time or with minimal experience on other people boats. They were all looking for a cheap but complete package and I delivered. Buyers were all young people in their 20's with small kids. Nothing scientific but I think younger people still like sailing and owning boats. I will be buying my first big (30-35') boat in the next 10 months to take a 3 year break from work (or possibly retire early for good). Again, I'm looking for a complete package cruising boat, not a project, even as I have restored quite a few smaller sailboats in the last 30 years and never lost money on any of them (at least when figuring my labor at Chinese sweat shop rates).


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## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

capecodda said:


> We had our first boat in our mid 30's. A 22' pocket cruiser. Wow was that fun. It was the escape from work, the connection with the ocean, it was important to us. By then we had a house, decent jobs, and a couple of cars...all that we "owned" but the bank owned us . It's what we did back then.
> 
> There is an argument that the future is not about ownership. Young people are happy renting the place they live, leasing a car (or better ride sharing and ultimately pressing a button on their iPhone for a self driving car to arrive at their house to take them to x), doing virtual stuff, owning less....valuing experience over ownership. Is this wrong? No, it's just different. There is little doubt in terms of capital efficiency that ownership isn't always the best use of capital. Particularly when your talking about rapidly depreciating assets that gobble money to maintain like yachts.
> 
> ...


How many Co-ops out there? Locally, there's the Moraine Sailing Club. Once you are a member and are US Sailing certified, you can sign out and use any of the club boats any time you want. These are Flying Scotts and Sunfish on a lake, but I'm sure there are similar clubs on the ocean or the great lakes with much larger boats.

Me, personally, I ended up buying my own 16' sloop anyway. The cert was taking too long because the classes weren't frequent enough. Once I had my own boat I was sailing multiple times per week. The classes were only every other weekend.

Additionally, I found the Sunfish to be too small and the Scott too big. A Sunfish is fine if I go by myself, but cramped for two people. A Scott is huge for anything less than 3 people. My 16' is small enough to easily single hand, and big enough for 3 people comfortably.

If I planned on keeping this boat, I have a long list of improvements I'd like to make to the rigging as well as general repairs and maintenance (it's 30 years old). I might still do it, but I'm waiting to see what happens once I've purchased a larger boat. I doubt I'd have the autonomy to make changes to the club's boats.

In the end, some if it is practical; but some of it is psychological. I like the fact that it's _my_ boat. I don't even know why, to be honest.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

BillMoran said:


> ..... I like the fact that it's _my_ boat. I don't even know why, to be honest.


I agree. It's my refuge. Immediate stress reliever. I've even consciously said to myself, this is where I would go, if I lost it all. It's probably not a good plan, god forbid that ever happened, but it's emblematic of how I feel about my boat. It's not a shared toy.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Like I say, I’ve been hearing this “sailing is in decline” story for going on ten years. I’d love to see actual sales data on this (new and used market). It would be interesting to see what price brackets are moving and which aren’t. If growing income inequality is the main driver (as I speculate) I’d expect to see solid or even growing sales at the higher end, and stagnation or decline at the lower end. 

BTW, I’m thinking about cruising boats starting in at least the 26’ range. I’d expect simple smaller play boats to be unaffected, or perhaps even go up in sales.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Many of my friends and acquaintances are so far from being able to own, maintain and manage a sailboat. Mostly they waste ( IMHO ) their time, also their money on useless things, like driving to Loews to buy lawn fertilizer and mulch, attending company award dinners and driving to engagement parties for kids of people they barely know. How can they ever find time and money to buy a sailboat, and learn to sail??? And then take days off sailing somewhere!!! Hahahaha! That's fine, more dock space for me. I'll gladly be unpopular and go sailing.


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## aeaston (Aug 5, 2011)

capecodda said:


> What they may miss is: there is a feeling that you get when you maintain, repair, navigate, sail, power, and get someplace in your own vessel based on your own abilities. There is a freedom to this and self determination. It is more than experiencing sailing, it's doing it, the whole thing. Somehow a sunset is better from the deck of your own boat, that you got there, that you maintained, that you got through the fog bank, that you varnished the teak, that ......
> 
> Somehow that's all much more real for me than any experience that is managed by technology or other people. Somehow that's better than any organized activity. Yea, I don't go on bus tours or cruise ships. No appeal. Wonder how many sailors feel the same?
> 
> ...


Wow, don't feel too old. 28 year old here, had my first keel boat 10 years ago at 18. My wife and I just moved up to our third boat this spring.

I sail for exactly the reasons you describe. That experience is unlike any other.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I've personally purchased 5 boats in 7 years... which I also sold 4... so all I can say is I can only buy SO MANY BOATS!!! you guys gotta pick up the slack some!

Before you think it, it was not all 2ft itis... First boat was a Catalina 14.2, then a Catalina Capri 22, then a Catalina Capri 25, then an S2 7.9 and now a WD Schock Wavelength 24. Next boat will require me to depart from larger waters... enough of this damned puddle I sail on.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

I've been counting on it being a slow market, creating a "buyers market". If the market gets lively, that means that there will be fewer bargains when I'm finally ready to buy.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

aeaston said:


> Wow, don't feel too old. 28 year old here, had my first keel boat 10 years ago at 18. My wife and I just moved up to our third boat this spring.
> 
> I sail for exactly the reasons you describe. That experience is unlike any other.


Nova Scotia is perhaps my favorite place on the planet because of the people who live there. It's wonderful to hear of a young person living the sailing dream down east in such a beautiful place...and somehow not surprising.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Here's more speculation. Four score and seven years ago (exaggeration), I knew a lot of folks who drove cheap cars, as commuter or train cars. No air conditioning, no power anything, etc. Today, they hardly make such an animal. People want all the toys and the price of a car has far outpaced inflation, because of these upgrades. 

I wonder if that is representative of a population that is saying, "if I can't afford the luxury sailboat, I don't want one"


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I wouldn't doubt that inexperienced sailors (note, inexperienced, not young, easy to be older and know nothing about boats or sailing and the current record holder for a solo circumnavigation is 16) allow themselves to be convinced that they need much more boat than they really need to get the job done.

As for folks who are committed to owning a boat, but maybe can't afford a large yacht (both time and money), I think they're finding work arounds, Hobie Getaways, sea kayaks, dinghies, even Stand Up Paddle Boards.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

People are definitely used to a higher level of luxury. Just look at how house sizes have changed.

When our house was built in 1942 it was 750 square feet and was considered suitable for a family of 4. Now it has had a second story added and at 1250 square feet it's just barely big enough for my wife and me! We really need to get that basement finished….

The average US house was 1,660 square feet in 1973 and grew to 2,687 square feet in 2015, at the same time that family size was shrinking.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

So true about the car and house thing. A few years ago we went in to buy a new car. First off, I wanted a small, fuel efficient vehicle with good maintenance reputation. I settled on a Honda Fit, but I wanted the basics, bare bones, version: no air, no power locks or remote start, no butt warmer seats, manual transmission … you know, a simple car. 

After much attempted upselling the dealership finally sold us this car, but we had to special order if from the factory in Japan. None of the lowest-end models were available anywhere in ONTARIO! They had plenty of the higher versions around, but not their basic car. 

It’s not by accident that cars keep getting more luxurious, houses keep getting larger and boats are both (larger and more luxurious) … it’s the constant drum beat of our consumerist culture. Our economy runs by convincing all of us that we need more, More, MORE! Demand is constantly created where none exists. The idea of having enough, of being satisfied with what you have, is anathema in our culture. And all this is fed by most people working harder than ever, and going deeper into debt.

All this said, I predict we will see a dramatic reversal in many of these factors. In fact, I think we already are. The signs of change are all around us, led by the cultural trends in the millennial generation. Mini houses, smaller, fewer or no cars. The so-called “sharing economy” (which has little to do with sharing). All these things are driven by the real decline in middle class wealth.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I think it's perfectly natural and normal for people to prefer to be more comfortable. I'm sure it will continue and that motivation drives innovation as much as anything. 

The problem isn't some greedy sin of society, it's that people started to spend too much on single luxury items, like bigger houses. They overshot the goal. There is nothing wrong with a bigger house, as long as you can afford it. Maybe if folks went from 1700sf to 2300, instead of 2700, they would have it all. I'm sure some of this will reset. However, society at large will never adopt a minimalist lifestyle as mainstream, unless it's forced upon them.


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## Gail Peterson (Apr 16, 2017)

Sal Paradise said:


> Many of my friends and acquaintances are so far from being able to own, maintain and manage a sailboat. Mostly they waste ( IMHO ) their time, also their money on useless things, like driving to Loews to buy lawn fertilizer and mulch, attending company award dinners and driving to engagement parties for kids of people they barely know. How can they ever find time and money to buy a sailboat, and learn to sail??? And then take days off sailing somewhere!!! Hahahaha! That's fine, more dock space for me. I'll gladly be unpopular and go sailing.


This is my exact thinking that I have recently come to realize. I discovered like a bolt of lightning, that the proverbial "American Dream" is not really my dream. I don't want to spend 2 hours a week mowing grass, another 2 weeding the beds, work parties, and the like....I hope to soon start renting and I just purchased a solid older mid-size cruising boat so I can reconnect with the water and the sense of serenity and freedom sailing offers. When I retire in about 5 years, I may get a larger boat to accommodate more comfortable long-term sailing. This is my American Dream.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Yeah, but it would be pretty nice to have your headstone engraved with *Yard of the Week Award Winne*r.
Or something else equally envied....


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

The fact that houses are getting bigger in North America is only half the storey. At the same time as the houses are getting bigger the yards are getting smaller or at the very best staying the same. This is true of the Marine environment, the yachts are getting bigger as the shoreline becomes more developed, condos compete with Marina's and recreational property and commercial facilities. The world is getting smaller, or at least the amount available for each one of us to share.

There is no wilderness bordering Lake Ontario, there might be undeveloped land, but certainly no wilderness. Even out of site of land it's a rare thing to have shore lights or another vessels or an aircraft running lights not visible.

When I first sailed Lake Superior, the Eastern shore line appeared to be pristine shoreline, but the last time I was there in 2011 there was a massive wind farm development where there had been only wilderness.

In my area there are multi year waiting lists for most Marina's and yacht clubs, moorage/storage fees for a 35' boat are running $5000 a year and up.

I think there is a meaningful force that is going to cause yachts to get smaller, it's a resource just like money, but not money- space.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

I wonder how much "younger" people ever counted for sailboat sales. I'm a new comer to sailboat ownership, so I can't really have an informed opinion, but my GUESS is that owning a sailboat has always been more of an older folks endeavor.

Even if I'm wrong about that, I don't see the younger folks of today as being any less energetic than previous generations. And as technology has made it easier to sail and navigate, the designers of gear for other sports have made even greater advancements. Sports like snowboarding, backcountry skiing, mountain biking, rock climbing, surfing, whitewater kayaking, paragliding are SO much more accessible, easy, safe, and FUN now than they were twenty years ago. All those sports are attracting increasing numbers of young adults. They cost about the same as owning and sailing a small sailboat. But, they are WAY more physical than sailing and thus are really more appropriate for young people. And every one of those sports is chock-full of athletic, fun, adventurous women with great bodies. If you know of a sailboat marina that can make that claim, please let me know about it.

At the other end of the lifespan, the bareboat charter business seems to be thriving. Bareboats are chartered by those same folks as described above for a break from their gravity sports. More importantly, older people look at sailing and come to the intelligent decision that renting a big cruising boat is cheaper and WAY easier than owning a cruising boat. Hop on a plane to almost anywhere you'd want to cruise for a month, and there will be a boat, all clean and ready to go. When you are done, tie the boat to the dock and walk away. Yes, it make sense for some of us to buy and own boats, but for many others, the wide availability of fairly new, nice boats to rent makes ownership unnecessary.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I think it's perfectly natural and normal for people to prefer to be more comfortable. I'm sure it will continue and that motivation drives innovation as much as anything.


I disagree. I think what is "natural" is for an animal or a species to find a balance in an eco-system. Perpetual MORE in the face of finite systems is unnatural, and is the root of most environmental and political problems we face on this planet. It's not normal. Whether you ascribe greed, or call it a sin, I don't know. It's not "normal" by ecological or biological senses.



Minnewaska said:


> ...However, society at large will never adopt a minimalist lifestyle as mainstream, unless it's forced upon them.


Agreed. It is being forced on us. This is exactly what is happening.



Arcb said:


> The fact that houses are getting bigger in North America is only half the storey. At the same time as the houses are getting bigger the yards are getting smaller or at the very best staying the same. This is true of the Marine environment, the yachts are getting bigger as the shoreline becomes more developed, condos compete with Marina's and recreational property and commercial facilities. The world is getting smaller, or at least the amount available for each one of us to share.
> 
> There is no wilderness bordering Lake Ontario, there might be undeveloped land, but certainly no wilderness. Even out of site of land it's a rare thing to not have shore lights or another vessels or an aircraft running lights not visible.
> 
> ...


Interesting observation about reduced space for us all to share. I will say though, that the actual east shore of Superior still has no observable development. I think the windmills you're referring to are in White Fish Bay, near Batchawana Bay and the Sault. Once you're north of these areas, and along the northern shore, Superior still offers real wilderness. It's not pristine/untouched. But it is still wild.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

MikeOReilly said:


> So true about the car and house thing. A few years ago we went in to buy a new car. First off, I wanted a small, fuel efficient vehicle with good maintenance reputation. I settled on a Honda Fit, but I wanted the basics, bare bones, version: no air, no power locks or remote start, no butt warmer seats, manual transmission &#8230; you know, a simple car.
> 
> After much attempted upselling the dealership finally sold us this car, but we had to special order if from the factory in Japan. None of the lowest-end models were available anywhere in ONTARIO! They had plenty of the higher versions around, but not their basic car.
> 
> ...


I'm not complaining about the upgrades in car comfort over the years. I grew up in the desert in the fifties, when air conditioned cars were almost unheard of - at least among the people we knew. And it wasn't just air conditioning; the cars themselves had trouble coping with high temperatures. Any time we took a trip we left about three or four o'clock in the morning, so we could be out of the desert before it got hot. It not only kept us from sweating; it saved our vehicles.

Back then, the Indio grade was lined with 55-gallon barrels full of water, for the benefit of cars that overheated and geysered their radiators. The shoulders of Highway 60/70 were littered with rubber, from retread tires (all some of us could afford) that had disintegrated from running on hot asphalt. Fighting a headwind could result in parking under a tree for hours, until the wind subsided or the sun set. And even in the shade we kept sweating...

It still blows my mind sometimes that I can run the same desert on the I-10 freeway (that replaced Highway 60-70) any time of the day or night, without sitting in a puddle of sweat. Or without overheating my little Nissan pickup; it doesn't care what the ambient temperature is. The barrels of water along the highway are long gone. The signs suggesting you turn off your A/C for the next 'X' number of miles to avoid overheating are still there, but no one pays attention to them anymore.

Trust me: it didn't take any consumerist brainwashing to convince me A/C in my car is a good thing...


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

troy2000 said:


> I'm not complaining about the upgrades in car comfort over the years. I grew up in the desert in the fifties, when air conditioned cars were almost unheard of - at least among the people we knew. And it wasn't just air conditioning; the cars themselves had trouble coping with high temperatures. Any time we took a trip we left about three or four o'clock in the morning, so we could be out of the desert before it got hot. It not only kept us from sweating; it saved our vehicles.
> 
> Back then, the Indio grade had 55-gallon barrels full of water every couple of miles, for the benefit of cars that overheated and geysered their radiators. The shoulders of Highway 60/70 were littered with rubber, from retread tires (all some of us could afford) that had disintegrated from running on hot asphalt. Fighting a headwind could result in parking under a tree for hours, until the wind subsided or the sun set. And even in the shade we kept sweating...
> 
> ...


Troy you will remember the canvas/hessian water bags that were carried on front of cars back then too?


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

aeventyr60 said:


> Troy you will remember the canvas/hessian water bags that were carried on front of cars back then too?


A trip down Memory Lane...

Remember them? I have one hanging in my shop. It's made of Scottish flax, and last time I looked they were still available online. 

I bought mine years ago, mostly for the nostalgia value, and I sling it on the front of my pickup sometimes just for kicks... I remember running into an old man at Chiriaco Summit a while back, who was so tickled to see one again I thought he was going to kiss me. I also use it when I'm camping and fishing along the Colorado River - admittedly, again mostly for nostalgia. It isn't like drinking ice water, but it does cool the water noticeably even just hanging from a tree branch.

Do you remember the old canister vacuum-shaped evaporative coolers people used to hang on the windows of cars? They were better than nothing, but not really worth the trouble of messing with them for short trips - especially since they didn't work well except at highway speeds. And for long trips, timing to be out of the desert before the heat of the day was the normal strategy... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_cooler


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> ......It's not normal......


Mike, I know it's not normal for you. However, the human species has moved up from sleeping on the ground, to caves, to huts, to houses, to highrise waterfront condos with doormen. It's been completely normal for our species to endeavor to be more comfortable. I understand you take a different path.

If one wants true natural balance in the eco-system, one has to stop taking man made medicine too, so our population dies off more quickly and doesn't overtake resources. Ain't going to happen. Our species is hard coded to survive and be more comfortable in the process.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

OK, I admit I've dug myself into a bit of an argumentative hole here . It's not the seeking of _easy_ that is abnormal. All animals, when give two equal options, will take the easier/safer/more comfortable route. So seeking A/C is perfectly normal in that regard.

What is abnormal is the perpetual expansion and growth of our footprint on this planet. Most species build a home that is big enough, they don't keep getting larger, generation after generation for no biological reason. Most species consume resources at a rate sufficient to sustain their actives, when they have enough, they stop.

And of course, not all human cultures exhibit this tendency to take more and more, without regard to the ecosystem or others. In fact, this kind of behaviour is fairly modern, and is attached to the development of civilization some 12,000 years ago. Capitalism and the consumer economy has driven this behaviour to new heights as we commoditize and privatize everything.

BTW, I too miss not having A/C some of the time. It can get brutally hot and humid down here in southern Ontario some days. And if I lived in the desert I'd probably want it all the time. I'm not making some luddite or "we should all be in caves" argument. I'm simply pointing out that the reason our crap keeps getting larger in size and volume is due largely to artificial demands created to sustain our artificial economies. It doesn't have to be this way...

We, particularly in the rich West, have lost any sense of _enough_. So our houses and boats keep getting bigger, as do the piles of things we apparently now _need_. It's why one of the fastest growing businesses is self storage sheds; we all have so much stuff now that we need extra space just to keep it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I will agree to split the cause into two camps. The first is my original position that every generation strives to be more comfortable than the last. The second are the "keep up with the Jones". This later group definitely buys bigger, more expensive stuff for no other reason than to show off or best their neighbor for no practical reason. I'm not sure which is the larger group and highly suspect that one's own bias believes it's one over the other. I maintain, however, that bigger or more comfortable isn't inherently bad, if it's useful. It can be useful.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

p.s. I have a climate controlled storage unit near the boat, so I don't have to hump everything home or store all my tools and supplies aboard or pay the yard their outrageous vig to store my outboard. I've also had them in the past to temporarily store my household, between moves. Most of those around me are doing something similar, a few are storing collections they will make money on one day. I think it remains biased to think they are just stuffed with excess.


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## carl10579 (Apr 26, 2017)

I've had a couple of cheap fixers on Craig's for a while now and just a couple of calls came in. No takers in the Hudson Valley. One is a daysailer and the other is an O'day 22. Both on trailers with good sails. Both need minor glass work and paint. Where can you buy a nice boat, fix it up and go sailing for under $1500? Either people are broke or they just don't care about or want a boat.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Lots of data available on the significant growth of self-storage units over the last 20 years. Even as our houses get bigger, our demand for more space to store all our stuff is growing even faster. Here's one overview article we some useful data:

Self-Storage Nation-Americans are storing more stuff than ever.

"Keeping up with the Jones" is not an isolated or disconnected factor in our societies. Culture shapes behaviour, which shapes culture. Our culture screams at all of us, all the time, to constantly get more. The sociology around social status is complex, but goes a long way to explaining the whole "Jones" phenomena.

The notion of each successive generation getting richer (and more comfortable) is a very modern one. Now that we've reversed the 'New Deal' approach to floating all boats, successive generations in many Western countries will become poorer, and likely less comfortable (if comfort is measured by luxury).

It's why fewer middle-class folks are buying modest boats...


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

carl10579 said:


> I've had a couple of cheap fixers on Craig's for a while now and just a couple of calls came in. No takers in the Hudson Valley. One is a daysailer and the other is an O'day 22. Both on trailers with good sails. Both need minor glass work and paint. Where can you buy a nice boat, fix it up and go sailing for under $1500? Either people are broke or they just don't care about or want a boat.


I'm afraid the reason you can't sell them is the supply of used boats has way outstripped demand.

We bought this 60's vintage O'Day for our son for a dollar. Could use some work, mostly cosmetic, but it was in sail-away condition.

The last owner tried to sell it floating, on the mooring, ready to go. No interest at at 3-2-1K.

He had bought another boat and didn't want to go through the winter with two boats.

Our local YMCA has an annual auction of donated boats(common around the country). He went to them. They didn't want it. Reason: They have too many similar sized - age - condition boats for their auction demands.

At that point the previous owner realized he now owned a potential cost liability. He put it on Craigs List, for FREE. I saw the ad - knew the boat (it's moored next to ours) - know the owner.

I can hardly believe I said this now, but I told him I'd like a look at it first before I make a decision.    Our was away at school, I sprung for the buck see we could exchange the title.

Here's the boat launching last year:










Our son sailed the dickens out of the boat last season. He sailed it farther downeast than the previous owner did in over 10 years. The boat is a great sailer.










The topsides are quite good. The cabin and decks etc. all need lots of prep and paint. No plans to do that at his point. How much do you upgrade a $1 boat?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Tom, that pic of your son sailing speaks a thousand words! Calm, fingertips on the tiller, beverage in other hand, feet crossed, gentle heal, towing a pram. Beautiful.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

Yeah, but look at his face...I read: "WTF? My mainsail ripping apart in the middle of an easy sail!" :eek :laugh


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

:2 boat:

I read whistling.

Another angle on the (perceived) lack of young people (I'm 32 and trying for my third boat. Is that still young? Relatively?) buying boats might also be related to the yacht as status symbol. There is a perception of "wealth" or snobbery that seems to correspond to boat ownership with a lot of people. "You have a sailboat? What do you do for a living?" "How old are you? Did you daddy buy you that boat?" and so on and so forth. Well...to be fair first they ask how big the engine is or how fast it goes...after you explain that its a sailboat they look at you like you just responded in latin. They imagine the beautiful, stylish, spacious, luxurious stereotype. They perhaps don't realize that your 40 year old 27 footer tends to squirt water at you from around the hatches and ports if the wind blows the rain perhaps just a little too hard from the wrong direction.

A lot of people, especially younger, more image conscious people, may want something they can _show off._ They want something that says something about them, their status, their success. This isn't new, and I don't believe it's something the younger generations invented...but I look at the old blue water pocket cruisers that people sailed all over the world in the 70's and 80's, without much in the way of air conditioning and hot water pressure showers...and then I look at how completely unacceptable they now are, and that cruising around on anything smaller than 40 feet is considered a deathwish or masochistic at best. That Orion 27 that your father sailed around the world twice? No air conditioning or watermaker?! You'll be killed!

I suspect that a lot of people will either get the luxurious boat (read..._size_) that they think expresses their status properly...or they'll just go without and buy a gigantic house and a German SUV instead. Personally, on a classic 70 foot wooden gaff schooner or a sailing dinghy, I've probably got the same grin on my face because I honestly could not give two ****s about the whatever status, but I care a great deal about _being on the water._ Which means that I will sail around on smaller boats. Because that means _I'm sailing around on a boat right now_ instead of thinking about a couple decades of loan payments on a new 40+ footer with a French name.

To sum up my rant: Minimalism makes boating affordable. But minimalism is completely out of style. So...boating becomes less affordable, and fewer people do it. I mean...people _*CAN*_ afford it. I know a lot of people who spend more monthly on their smartphone bill/various digital subscriptions and services than I do on my slip at the marina, boat insurance, and most of my maintenance.

I'm not rich. I just prefer having a boat to a smartphone and all the crap that goes with it. I'm not on facebook anymore, either. Maybe I _am_ old.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I found a few reports online, I'm not really sure what they are all saying. I don't think anything here indicates that young folks (millenials) aren't into sailing. My generation (x) seems to be slacking off a little. A few interesting observations I noted.

The cruising sailing focused studies refer to "Alpha Affluents" as their target market, as I suspected, they really aren't interested in selling boats to middle class working families. Which is pretty evident in the new products available out there, it's tough to find a good new practical sailboat, they mostly seem to feature heavily with bling and luxury, sizes are increasing, sailing often doesn't seem to be a priority.

It seems however, 72% of boaters in general (power and sail) are middle class families with incomes under $100k.

It seems lots of people are boating, lots of people are sailing, mostly only rich people (alpha affluents) are into newish cruising sailboats (yachts), I don't see any surprises here.

http://www.cruisingworld.com/sites/...s/the_sailing_market_2014_with_2013_data1.pdf

U.S. Boat Sales Float Back to the Top, Expected to Surge through 2018 | Business Wire

http://www.sailingworld.com/sites/s...te_of_the_sailing_industry_with_2015_data.pdf


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## Aswayze (Apr 5, 2015)

One other factor worth considering is perspective. It may well be that "young people" know how to use Google and are a great deal more likely to research things themselves rather than talking to a broker. I shopped for my boat knowing exactly precisely what I was looking for and like many people these days, did not feel that adding a smarmy used car salesman to the process would add any value to me. 

In fact, I know of exactly nobody in my immediate circle of sailing friends who bought via a broker.

It might not be sailing that is dying...


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## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

Aswayze said:


> One other factor worth considering is perspective. It may well be that "young people" know how to use Google and are a great deal more likely to research things themselves rather than talking to a broker. I shopped for my boat knowing exactly precisely what I was looking for and like many people these days, did not feel that adding a smarmy used car salesman to the process would add any value to me.
> 
> In fact, I know of exactly nobody in my immediate circle of sailing friends who bought via a broker.
> 
> It might not be sailing that is dying...


Curious, you mean they did not use a "buying broker" or that there was no broker involved at all?

Seems like most people selling are selling through a broker. I've only talked to one seller that wasn't using a broker ... but it's possible I'm not searching in all the possible places.

If there's one thing I'm really bad at, it's shopping.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

BillMoran said:


> Curious, you mean they did not use a "buying broker" or that there was no broker involved at all?
> 
> Seems like most people selling are selling through a broker. I've only talked to one seller that wasn't using a broker ... but it's possible I'm not searching in all the possible places.
> 
> If there's one thing I'm really bad at, it's shopping.


I'm with Aswayze on this one, I've never employed a buyers broker or a seller's broker and in addition to my numerous small sailboat transactions, I've owned 2 cruising sailboats over 30 feet (older boats from the 70's).

Edit: OP: the boat I just sold met most of your criteria very nicely, but there was no way I was giving up %10% to a broker in exchange for a little leg work, so I sold her on Kijiji.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

Arcb said:


> I'm with Aswayze on this one, I've never employed a buyers broker or a seller's broker and in addition to my numerous small sailboat transactions, I've owned 2 cruising sailboats over 30 feet (older boats from the 70's).
> 
> Edit: OP: the boat I just sold met most of your criteria very nicely, but there was no way I was giving up %10% to a broker in exchange for a little leg work, so I sold her on Kijiji.


One minor quibble about this assumption...
There is no "rule" that requires a 10% commission. Actually for a small boat most brokers I know use a fixed fee, since selling a "cheap" or small boat usually takes as much time and effort as selling a big boat.
While everyone assumes that the negotiating begins when they get an initial offer, it actually starts before the seller signs a listing agreement. When he/she has a clean (really, really clean) and well maintained vessel they should ask to have that # set at about 5%. Given that such boats are quite rare, they sell disproportionately fast. No doubt the brokerage listings are already cluttered with ill-kept and over-priced boats that will take huge amounts of energy to market, it they ever sell at all.

I sold our prior boat thru a broker (first time doing that) because they had a sales dock with prime exposure. I had that boat looking like new and 100% turn key. I visited it at least once a week to hose it off and police up the deck and interior for scuffs and dust.
It sold, in the fall..., in 30 days. I got the asking price and it was not low for what it was. I also amended their agreement such that my net was fixed and they could drop the listed price but doing so would reduce their commission. 
They ended up dropping it a little, the buyer got his slight mark down, and I got the agreed payout. 
Remember that the broker really likes (!) showing a clean boat. Way too many owners bring in a mediocre boat loaded with moldy life jackets and every kind of detritus crammed into every locker and niche.

Consider this when shopping... and when listing.... And remember that a GOOD broker will earn every nickel of his/her commission.


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## Aswayze (Apr 5, 2015)

Buyer? Seller? The broker is only working for one person and that is the broker. He or she is just one more person with his hands in the cookie jar. If I am the seller he or she is taking my cookies, if I am the buyer there is no getting around the fact that I am having to show up at the table with more cookies than I did before.

I LIKE THE COOKIES!










I am willing to do my own leg work to avoid the extra layer of BS that dealing with a broker comes with. If I go see a boat that is listed with a broker, I have to talk to the broker and not the owner and guess who has the answers to 100% of the questions I am going to ask? Let me give you a hint, it's not the broker... Guess who is more likely to have a BS reason to no show when I travel somewhere? Is it the guy with 100% money on the line or the guy with 10%?

20 years ago a sales dock with lots of traffic probably meant a lot, now I dare you to find me a sales dock that can match a Craigslist or Kijiji posting for traffic. I am not even in the market for a boat but I know where every one of the boats I am interested in is and how much the owners want for them. I check at least once a week, I am sure many others do the same. Whats at the local sales dock? No idea, don't care.

Also worth pointing out that most all of us have friends and our friends tend to know is pretty well too. If I know a friend is looking for something in particular, I tend to forward anything interesting I find in my rummaging along to them. In fact, I suggested a boat to Arcb just like many others did. Our friends know us, they can make useful suggestions and will almost always provide better results than brokers and even when they don't at least they don't want 10% of your money.

Similarly, I do not buy new cars for much the same reason. If I could hop on Amazon and click "Add to Cart" for the car or truck I wanted I would but dealing with car dealers is nothing but I giant waste of time and in several trips to buy a car, I have literally walked off every time. I do not need a salesman, I do not need a sales manager, I do not need a finance manager, blah blah blah, I need a cashier and someone to make sure there is toilet paper in the bathroom.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I just conducted a small experiment for my home province, Ontario. I did a search for all sailboats for sale in Ontario on YW, which should account for all or most brokerage boats. The search got 547 hits.

I then searched all sailboats on one of the many non-brokerage, private sale sights, Kijiji, and got 857 hits. So while it may be true a good broker in many cases may work hard for their money, I don't think it changes the fact, that lots of boats, especially used boats are not listed by brokers.

(Sail) Boats For Sale Ontario ON Canada

Buy or Sell Used or New Sailboat in Ontario | Boats for Sale | Kijiji Classifieds - Page 5


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Arcb said:


> I just conducted a small experiment for my home province, Ontario. I did a search for all sailboats for sale in Ontario on YW, which should account for all or most brokerage boats. The search got 547 hits.
> 
> I then searched all sailboats on one of the many non-brokerage, private sale sights, Kijiji, and got 857 hits. So while it may be true a good broker in many cases may work hard for their money, I don't think it changes the fact, that lots of boats, especially used boats are not listed by brokers.


Good data! I bet that more lower-end boats get sold through the non-broker (Kijiji, etc.) markets while the higher end gets the broker treatment (YW).

In my financial range (under $60K) I would much rather deal directly with the owner than with a broker. While buying our last boat I found that brokers, in general, were mostly uninformed regarding their listed boats, and most were not all that interested in doing much work. However, there were also outstanding examples of the opposite, including the selling broker who managed our final deal.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

Interesting discussions - in my area - Florida - still a huge buyers market - especially for older boats. Ones with good pedigree and ready to go do sell and sometimes for a decent amount - but lots of older boats , that have not been kept up well - they litter CL , there are good ones out there but takes some searching. Older boats in the 25- 30 ft range are the toughest to sell - a little small for cruising but still need to be kept in a slip - slips in Florida - especially along the coast - expensive and not a lot of vacancies, the hurricanes and condo development took their toll -

Young people owning a boat - I am father to 2 and step father to 3 more from 24 to 17. All are too busy to think about owning a boat until their 30's - one is in China teaching english, another in Nuke school for the Navy , the 2 girls at home are attending schools and working part time. All like to sail, and if they had the money would enjoy a charter sailing vacation - but no interests in owning - but I don't think their generation is into big houses ( or big boats) as status symbols - they would rather be in a cool location, UBER their car needs and have various adventurous vacations.

I have no idea what the effect is on boat ownership - but something new is all the Youtube videos of young twenty somethings traveling the world on a sailboat - not sure if they actually own some of the boats - but it seems the idea is to round up an attractive young couple - stick them on the boat with a number of friends ( mostly in bikini's) and sail around warm weather places.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

amwbox said:


> A lot of people, especially younger, more image conscious people, may want something they can _show off._ They want something that says something about them, their status, their success.


But your status says live in Portland? Huh. Maybe Portland has changed since I last visited.


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## Trainer811 (Apr 28, 2017)

I'm also shopping for my next boat but not in the six figure range and more like 5 maybe. Plenty of boats under $20K. I am a boomer too and pensioned out (public service at that) and got a "free' sailboat last summer, a Daysailer17.I live in Philadelphia and the boat for a while was restricted to a small lake in NJ. Crossing back and forth a few days a week I noticed few if any pleasure boats on the Delaware. Not that long ago you could almost walk across the river on a summer weekend without getting your feet wet, I know it's only April but warm. I know boats I've been tracking all seem to be at rest.
Ron


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Minnesail said:


> But your status says live in Portland? Huh. Maybe Portland has changed since I last visited.


We can't all suffer in a frozen sinkhole like Minneapolis, I suppose. Biggest problem with Portland is that, much like San Francisco and Seattle, real estate is becoming outrageous. Too many tech sector folks flooding in. Traffic is getting nuts as well.

Perhaps you misread my post. Where_ I_ live at the moment is entirely irrelevant. I'm speaking generally.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

amwbox said:


> We can't all suffer in a frozen sinkhole like Minneapolis, I suppose.


There is snow forecast for Monday, the day I was hoping to launch my boat...


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## llunved (Apr 22, 2009)

MikeOReilly said:


> These "kids today" have it a lot harder, economically speaking, than previous generations, particularly the Baby Boomers. They are poorer, with fewer prospects for good jobs and careers. They are working harder and longer, in more precarious jobs. And any sense of long-term security, through descent benefits and a pension, is all but gone.


Unless of course they learned how to program one of those computers or phones they are using to play or find the next date... In that case, they have probably a higher average starting salary than any generation prior.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

llunved said:


> Unless of course they learned how to program one of those computers or phones they are using to play or find the next date... In that case, they have probably a higher average starting salary than any generation prior.


A tiny sliver of them, perhaps.

The truth is that they got the double whammy of entering college at a time when the costs had tripled or quadrupled, and then leaving college massively in debt (unless daddy was rich) in the middle of the biggest economic downturn since the Great Depression.

Previous generations could actually work their way through college. Or, alternatively they could get a manufacturing job that paid pretty well, right out of high school. Relative to inflation, wages have been flat for decades. Previous generations got A LOT more for their time, and for their money. My own mother made crazy money back in the 70's as a checker at Safeway because of those old union wage scales.

And now, the old timers denounce the young as lazy, entitled, etc etc, despite having had a much easier time of it in their own youths, and despite the fact that this generation is far better educated and _at least_ as hard working, considering the increase in hours worked over the years, than their parents'.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

amwbox said:


> ....My own mother made crazy money back in the 70's as a checker at Safeway because of those old union wage scales........


Safeway went bankrupt. Check your reality.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Minnewaska said:


> Safeway went bankrupt. Check your reality.


...in point of fact, it _didn't_. Reality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safeway_Inc.

But...what has this got to do with anything?

Edit: Correction


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

llunved said:


> Unless of course they learned how to program one of those computers or phones they are using to play or find the next date... In that case, they have probably a higher average starting salary than any generation prior.


Sure &#8230; exceptions exist in all groups. But by any rational analysis "the kids today" have it a lot harder than the Baby Boomers who often deride them as slackers. It's doubly ironic b/c it is the Baby Boomers who have chosen to make it harder for "the kids today" by focusing on giving themselves big tax breaks, and down-loading the costs of their short sightedness onto future generations.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

amwbox said:


> ...in point of fact, it _didn't_. Reality.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safeway_Inc.
> 
> ...


You're right. Thinking of someone else. Although selling out to KKR says something too.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I'm not really following why Unions are a bad thing for sailing? Higher wages for working folks mean more spending power to buy boats. My union just scored me an extra weeks vacation a year in our last round of bargaining. 

I guess the down side to that is the wealthy retirees are going to have to tolerate an extra week with me tied up beside them while I drink beer and my son jumps around and hollers and my wife sits around in her bikini and thumps her hip hop on the radio (even I'm too old for that).


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Even the worst countries can always get a few people rich - look at Russia for example. The Oligarchs, right? In Venezuela a few are amazingly rich, while the people starve. African dictators, almost a cliche' . There is royalty...... I could go on...., with examples from my own country, but then we know what would happen. Panties would get all twisted up. I am always looking for the largest number of well off people rather than a few. In that sense, I think the millennials are screwed.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Getting too far from sailing to wisely further engage. 

The number of wealthy are actually growing as a percentage of the US population. The problem is that the number of poor are too. The middle is shrinking. The middle class raise their kids to try to be wealthy and it has worked to some degree. Folks don't generally want to stay middle class. Going to college to get a degree in sociology, when you don't plan to be a sociologist or go to grad school, isn't going to get it done. 

There is nothing wrong with collective bargaining for a fair wage. The problem is that unions became the power hungry institution they were once fighting against and have put some employers out of business. It's a pendulum that belongs in the middle and never is.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I mean, the reason the guy couldn't sell the O'day 22 wasn't money. He proved that - wasn't it $1?

And we all know that most people just waste time. I'm doing it right now, I should be working on my boat. There is enough time. 

Yet my marina is crushing sailboats every year. Good boats never find another owner. Why?

It's something with the culture. And the cost of dockage. There are plenty of young buyers for big block speed boats. 

i think the "market" is way down unless you are talking nicely equipped new--ish cruising sailboats.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> ....
> There is nothing wrong with collective bargaining for a fair wage......


That's for the shepherds overlooking the sheep.
The price of wool varies...also the demand can vanish.
Sheep or not a sheep...always a choice....


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I stopped by a classic car show this weekend and I talked to a guy who lost a small fortune buying classics. I thought that what he said could apply to boats. 

He told me that perfect cars bring huge money and hold value - the rest are dirt cheap. There are few buyers for anything in between, which means that someone who is pragmatic and buys say a $10,000 car usually ends up with a bunch of expensive repairs and then loses his shirt trying to sell it to the few lowballers and tire kickers who even make an offer. There is a very bad market for a less desirable car with a few blemishes. 

And that's for a vehicle which does not require thousands of dollars per year in storage and specialized skills to operate.


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## Stroke2017 (Apr 21, 2017)

I don't know about the "young people" you're talking about, but I just bought my first boat, larger than a Sunfish, and I'm 60, I didn't go through a broker, I found her on one of those apps where you sell your own items and haggle...I wanted something I could handle by myself and figured it needed to be big enough to have a cabin...found all sorts of boats up to my max of 25' for under 5k, finally decided on one 20' that's solid and has been taken care of...yeah it's older '74, and will probably need a new set of sails next year, but to me she's perfect, just under 3k...and looks good, dry as can be, as long as you close the hatches...lol


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