# Lets choose SmackDaddy's new boat...



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Okay crew, it's time to rally behind one of our wounded comrades. For those of you who didn't hear, Smackdaddy's beloved SmackTanic sank. Details here:The Saddest Day of a Sailors Life










I don't know about you guys, but when a sailor's boat sinks it's a H-U-G-E deal. Thankfully I haven't experienced this feeling (yet) but I _have_ come back to my wooden boat in the yard to find an 8ft crack in the hull. I knew she would never sail again and I wept like a little girl. Really, I did.

I, for one, think that SmackDaddy has done a lot for SailNet. He's started some interesting threads and with a teflon-like quality has avoided the mud slinging matches with good cheer and quick wit. He encourages the SailNet-lings and doesn't feed the trolls. SmackDaddy hasn't logged on to SailNet in five days. Anyone else notice the difference around here?

*How can we help? * I think we can do two things:

First, we can buy some BFS gear from his site. If everyone who enjoy's smack's contribution bought a BFS beer cozy, I think he'd be well on his way to a new boat. Even if the financial contribution is small, it'd be a real show of support for a fellow sailor who loves sailing and SailNet. Spend your coin here: BFSshop.com, is the official home of BFS Gear for Big Freakin Sails!

Second, lets help him pick a new boat. Boats represent dreams, future or present and I think we all know that. Smack needs to have a new boat to keep the dream alive and let's start by helping him choose one with this thread. All ideas and contributions are welcome. Catamaran or mono? Fin or full? Contributions from Smack himself are welcome but will probably be ignored since we all know that SailNet knows all. 

So, knowing Smack as we do. What boat should he get for his ocean-going next boat?

MedSailor


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I had not heard that myself.....I had noticed he had been quiet per say.....but was hoping he was out with his kids on vacation or equal........

Not a way to lose the boat etc..

Not sure what his next boat should be either. Depends upon where he wants to sail, go etc. 

Condolences to Smack and the family!

Marty


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Damn...I was sick reading it. Sorry for you Smackie. Heads up.

Dave


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Wow, that is a heartbreaker, sorry Smack


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

That's a bummer, big time... Sorry to hear it, Smack...


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Just bought some BFS gear. Smack is now a little closer to being able to buy his next boat.

C'mon guys, pony up! It's for a good cause! 

MedSailor


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

Sorry Smack....Gonna get some gear....and I vote for a Schock 35! OK maybe he doesnt want a 35, but it sounds like he really liked what he had...so lets find him another Catalina 27...


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Sorry to hear about the Smacktanic, I guess she finally lived up to her name.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Yeah that really does suck!

I would like to hear what Smack has in mind for his next boat. Given he seems to be taken with the performance side of sailing he might be interested in something with a bit more racing pedigree than Smacktanic. (May she rest in peace!)

I am sure once he has mourned his loss sufficiently he will jump into the thread!

Boat shopping is so much fun!


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

A sad day indeed. Looks like he needs some speed. maybe a bigger beach cat?


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## CatMan22 (Apr 16, 2012)

What a bummer, I wondered why he hadn't offered up any smackolades to some of the posts in recent days or given a smactimony on how he sees it. I think we should purchase some gear then post the photos of it here to inspire others to do so.


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

Dadgum Smack......so sorry to hear about your boat.

Great idea about giving Smacky some ideas about a new ride and all of us busting loose on some BFS gear to help fund the effort. I loaded up on some coozies and a hat, and looked around a bit on the net for ideas for Smacktanic 2 - what do you think about this (we'll need to buy a buttload of gear, but it's for a great cause):

Smacktanic 2


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## CatMan22 (Apr 16, 2012)

Just picked up a hat and some boozies as well, also went to a couple of sailing groups I belong to and posted a message there and asked they check out his sight and pick up some gear.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Man, that sucks.

Gotta wonder if going stern in would've helped. Seems that every single boat was bow in to the slip, so maybe there was a reason for it.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Smack;

That is heart-wrenching. I am deeply sorry to hear of your loss of your beloved SmackTanic. At least everyone is okay. Once you catch your breath, you can begin the third most fun thing in life, looking for a replacement. 

Good luck,
Jeff


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## Silvio (Nov 10, 2010)

I think Smack loved his Catalina 27 so I vote for another Catalina, maybe a bit longer and wider, able to coastal cruise. If new, the Catalina 315 is really nice or if used the 320, 310, or 30 are all good coastal cruisers.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Damn man I can't even imagine what you're feeling right now. 

Take some time figuring out what's next. We all keep a mental inventory of boats we'd like to have "some day" - but not this way. This is just a real kick in the nuts.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I vote for a Catalina 30, Tartan 30 or a Pearson 30. He'll enjoy the nice cruising accomodations, solid build, and a decent turn of speed at a bargain price. Gotta park it somewhere safer though, or he could be in for a repeat-performance.

I'll "get thee hence" to the BFS site and buy something.

Smack, I'm truly sorry. As a Navy man, I understand the bond between a man and his vessel. I saw the care that you put into your C27 and I know that you had that bond.

Keep calm, and carry on.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

This is the first that I have heard of the demise of the S/V Smacktanic... I am sure that Smack is up to his eyeballs in insurance, and legal stuff.

However, the choice of a boat for Smack is an easy one for me: Telstar 28
It is;
fast
trailerable
able to fit in a normal (monohull) slip
1 foot longer than the Smacktanic
a boat with training hulls
everything that Smack would want - including plenty of 'tude

and we need another multi-hull guy (or gal) to needle.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Ouch. 
Hope he had insurance, although money is a small consideration compared to the loss of a treasured boat that has been seasoned with blood, sweat and tears as well as laughter, joy and wonder.


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Condolences Smack! You've got lots of choices.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Smack's pics are horrific. It looks like someone went through his marina with a chainsaw.


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## nolesailor (Oct 29, 2009)

I agree with all the sentiments expressed above...I couldn't imagine walking down to the dock and not seeing our boat there...knowing that she lies on the bottom...

I will definately purchase some BFS gear to help toward the new boat...


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## LaurenceU (Mar 7, 2011)

Sorry to hear about the loss of your little ship, Smack. 
Any chance of salvaging her? Is it really in 100'?
so sorry, mate.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

Smack allow me to offer my condolences on you recent loss. Sorry to hear about your beloved boat sinking.

It may be too soon to start looking for a replacement, give yourself some time to heal.


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## itsaboat (Sep 28, 2011)

That is one of the saddest blog posts I have read in, well, ever. 

Looking forward to the "Smack found a new boat" thread. After the "Insurance companies can bite it" and "Boats and legal issues in Tx" threads, of course.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

caberg said:


> Man, that sucks.
> 
> Gotta wonder if going stern in would've helped. Seems that every single boat was bow in to the slip, so maybe there was a reason for it.


Perhaps some spring lines, as well. The pictures don't show any springs.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

spring lines and tie the boats back 6', and someone please teach them how to tie a cleat hitch. how much line do they need on the cleat?


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

My deepest sympathy for your lose. It is like losing a child. Let the search begin.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Wow. Just, wow. Sorry to hear about this. Best of luck during the recovery.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Very sorry to hear about the loss of your boat and I can see how your marina went from being quite safe to quite dangerous because of the drought. The only consolation from an event like this is that it gives you an opportunity, perhaps unwanted, but an opportunity nonetheless.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Steve, so sorry. Just saw this too. Take care. 

Brian


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Smack - we miss your boundless enthusiasm and ascerbic wit. Come back soon.

When the time is right, I have no doubt that Smack2 will sail into your life; but damn, I am sorry for your loss.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Oh no, Smackdaddy, I just read about your boat. Very sorry to hear that. I can't recommend you what boat you should have, since I am bootless becasue I don't know what to buy. . However, I can buy some some cool stuff from your site. 

If you happen to buy a 2013 HR 412, I'd like to take a pic myself.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Dude needs something that can't be trapped in some cheapass artificial lake, surrounded by lee shores.











__
https://flic.kr/p/5


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

First I'd heard of this unfortunate event.
That's the pits kiddo, hope the insurance check is on it's on way.


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## finding41 (Jul 19, 2011)

Condolences. 
Don't limit your self to boats from the US. There is a ton of nice boats cheap in Europe!
And its a BFS back home!
Best of luck in your search.


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## g0twind (Oct 5, 2010)

Sorry to hear that Smack. Just purchased a hat and some boozies. Hope things get better for you!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I didn't realize so few knew of this. Smack posted it in his BFS thread. A real tragedy.

I'm willing to bet he's out of touch because he rented some scuba gear and is now at 100 ft below the surface in recovery mode. Recovering the bottle of rum he told us was aboard.

There must be some legal/insurance mess over this one. I understand he had liability but no hull coverage. One question is going to be what liability the marina holds for not properly afixing a bumper that he pointed out had fallen off prior to the storm. Hard to say it would have mattered.


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## ftldiver (Sep 9, 2002)

just found out about this....

I have not read the entire thread, but why are all the bows facing towards the dock?

I would think bow facing the open water would be better... some marina rule? (need to read the registration #)


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

Aww man! That bites!

Hope there's a happy ending.


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

Holy Smokes. That sucks, Smack. Wish you the best. Hope you're made whole, or better.

My deepest sympathies.

C


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The liability sure is an interesting question. Moving a dock out from a sheltered location to a wide open one...I suspect most of the owners weren't happy with that but it was the only way to keep their boats wet so they accepted it. And if that's a reservoir...I hate to ask if wreck removable and pollution abatement are first going to be required as well, so the boats may _have to be _raised and removed. A hundred feet but at the shore...towtruck & hawser?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> ...I hate to ask if wreck removable and pollution abatement are first going to be required as well, so the boats may _have to be _raised and removed. A hundred feet but at the shore...towtruck & hawser?


I asked the same in the other thread. It may be an upside to having his liability pay for the recovery. But he would just have a hulk, presumably with a big hole in it. I hope it isn't becoming more of a liability for him. We have lakes that fine you by the day until you retrieve your stuff.

He didn't deserve this.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

No, he doesn't. No one does.

I learned early on to lock the doors and close the windows so it wasn't hard to carry that over into "always secure the boat" but having the whole damned DOCK get wiped out, go figure.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Speechless! I just wanted to uke . A sad day for sure Smack


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## Randypa28 (Apr 24, 2008)

My condolences Smack. I can't even imagine walking up to that. Hope you find a new ride and that it's Miller Time VERY soon.


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

Just now saw this and read Smack's heartbreaking account. Really, really sorry, man. It's like the drought set you up for the windstorm like a one-two punch.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Hang in there, smack. That seriously sucks.


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## CS Cruiser (Dec 5, 2011)

Sorry to read about this, hope you can find a suitable replacement.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Sweet baby cheeses! Those pictures of the aftermath are heart wrenching!

Sorry for your loss Smacky Steve.

Since this is sailnut and we know everything I cant resist adding the following comments.

Grab that old cleat from the SmackTanic as a memento. You will note that the nuts are still attached which means it pulled right through the deck. I've been on a Catalina 27' and I wondered why they (Catalina) did not use backing plates for the mooring cleats. The horn cleats were also a bit on the small side if I recall. 

Another observation is that you should not leave your Bimini deployed when away from the boat. Extra windage is not what you needed during that freak blow like you experienced. 

We went through something similar here early last November: h'cane Sandy. Our club lost 20 out of about 100 moored boats. The combined high winds an the 10' storm surge was what did most boats in. It is always a combination of factors that gets you in the end. I thought that for sure our boat was a goner but by some miracle we survived; probably because we took off ALL canvas (no Bimini), checked the mooring chain and our mooring cleat is anchored through a hunk of 2" x 6" underneath the fore deck. 

Backing plates and reduce windage.

Sorry for your loss.


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## Magnolia (Dec 21, 2012)

I am so sorry for your loss.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

hard way to convince the admiral to get a new boat. seriously- heart goes out to you.


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

Bummer! Condolences....


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Here is what I know (or think I know) about what SmackDaddy wants in a boat:

--He loved his catalina 27, but he made mention of now buying a boat that he could someday take on the ocean. Which ocean, and how far, I don't know. 

--I know he has one Smackmomma and 2 boy Smacklings so the boat should accommodate them all. 

--At one point he was seriously considering catamarans for a variety of reasons, but on the other hand after reading Glenn Damato's book, and his difficulties clawing off a lee shore, Smack was against even a full keel for its limitations to weather. 

--It seems like the more he races, the more he likes performance. 

I'm thinking that he needs an offshore capable boat (but I'm going to assume that with the family he won't be going into high latitudes), it should have 2 cabins, and he will want something with a reasonably modern under-body. Not sure what rig is preferred yet, but I'll assume sloop for it's weatherliness (at least until I can talk him into the virtues of a Ketch ) 

--Price range? Well that depends on how much BFS stuff we buy doesn't it? 

Now, where is Bob Perry when you need him....

MedSailor


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## bjung (Apr 8, 2009)

My condolences, that's a real bummer. 
Smacktanic, hmmmmmm..... Taunting fate in boat names is just stupid superstition, right?


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## Sea Dawg (Jun 26, 2012)

Sorry for your loss. More than anything a man and his boat are bonded, even more as it becomes what you dreamed of it. I had a 31' boat at a marina my second season and a hurricane came through in Norfolk. I put mine on a pair of hooks with a LOT of rode. The carnage at the dock was similar with boats having pounded the pier. In the height of incoming storm the dock crew was literally swimming lines around the ones they could save. The ones that took a beating were just too close to the dock. I notice the slips at your dock were short and narrow, so imagine you couldn't get the kind of spring line clearance you'd hope for. May Smacktanic II be more graceful, swifter and unsinkable. Good luck and your Sailnet team awaits your good turn of fortune!


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## Michael K (Feb 27, 2006)

MedSailor said:


> --At one point he was seriously considering catamarans for a variety of reasons, but on the other hand after reading Glenn Damato's book, and his difficulties clawing off a lee shore, Smack was against even a full keel for its limitations to weather.
> 
> --It seems like the more he races, the more he likes performance.
> MedSailor


There are several affordable (older) multihull designs that have weatherly performance. An Iroquois 30 comes to mind. Loaded for cruising it will only be as quick as a comparable length monohull but will outperform if kept light. All the other advantages still apply - super shallow draft, level sailing so longer passages are less tiresome, more privacy for occupants, unsinkable (or easily made so). When anchoring or mooring off during a blow multis may pitch but never roll, making for more comfort aboard. There are more advantages but I'll stop here; Smack likely knows them well.

I have a 30' one off catamaran that was moored (and properly prepped)during hurricane Isabel. Free to swing at will nothing happened to her. Most boats that suffered were dockside. Having to use a dinghy all the time isn't as convenient but it becomes an accepable part of boating after a short while. And multis can usually accomodate a dinghy with ease.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Again, I think that the Telstar would fit the bill for Smack.
Here are two pics:
Amas retracted:









Amas deployed:


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

Sorry, SD. Momma Nature, who gives us the wind we need to sail, sometimes gives us too much, from the wrong direction at the wrong time.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Are those fold-up trimarans ocean-worthy? I've sailed on a F-28 locally and they're really fun (and different) to sail but I would eye any folding boat with suspicion for going offshore.

Since I know almost nothing about boats with more than one hull I'll be suggesting monohulls for Smack. I have an idea for something that is ocean-worthy, performance oriented but still affordable.

What about an Ericson???

The 35, 36, and 38 all look to have enough in the way of accommodations and have a V-berth plus a double quarterberth. The quarterberth gets bigger on the 36 and 38, but the 35 might be big enough.

The Ericson 35III has a PHRF rating of 123. Not bad.... There is one for sale now on YachtWorld for 42,500 (about 36,000 after negotiating).

Ericson 35III









Ericson 36
ERICSON 38 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

MedSailor


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

SmackDaddy should buy *THIS BOAT:*
Fully Loaded Ericson 38

Wow, me thinks that boat is a steal! Brand new engine, custom solar arch, watermaker, cape horn steering, liferaft, tides marine strongtrack and new-ish sails. The sail down to TX could be a BFS as well. I wonder if he could find anyone to help with the delivery....

MedSailor


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

Smack...
Sorry!
Paul


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

small lake, spawn, apparently an interest in speed and not multihull averse, accomodations secondary to performance...
a Stiletto and a tent for the tramp.
the trampoline, not what you're thinking.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Really sorry to hear the bad news. I thought this thread was some kind of a joke and after all it is sadly a serious matter. I guess that you need not any help to chose a new boat... you probably know what you want. I hope the lost one was insured.

Um abraço

Paulo


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

I vote for a Schock 35 for Smacks new boat. Lots of interior room. VERY solid build, I have heard of many that have been sailed from Cali to Hawaii, has a PHRF rating of 72...FAST. Can be had from 20k-40k easily. There are 4 on Yachtworld now....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Hmmm. Hasn't posted in a week, but was last sign on 8 hours ago?

Maybe they won't let him type in the Smack-sylum.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Man that sux! Thinking about you.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Hmmm. Hasn't posted in a week, but was last sign on 8 hours ago?
> 
> Maybe they won't let him type in the Smack-sylum.


I don't _*know*_ any of this first hand, but according to CD Smack has suffered a loss, much more serious than his boat, recently. I suspect that his last sign on was to communicate with CD.

My thoughts are with him, and I hope to see him back soon.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Goodness, I hope it is as recoverable as a boat.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...-needs-your-thoughts-prayers.html#post1003630

Non-recoverable


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Med, thanks for starting this thread - and thanks for snagging some BFS stuff to support the cause. And, especially, thanks to everyone for the ideas.

After several years of pouring over posts and articles and YW and PHRF and reviews and yadda, yadda...I've narrowed my search to the following requirements:

1. 37'-40' sloop (maybe cutter, removable stay better) - I've decided to wait on the multi due to price
2. 2-3 cabins, 1-2 heads
3. Relatively deep keel (6'-7') for good windward performance
4. Either/Or Interior:
-a. Spacious and a bit pimpy for a sweet hangout at anchor for non-salty family and friends.
-b. A bit more traditionally "seaworthy" for more hardcore sailing.
5. As fast as possible within the constraints (e.g. - PHRF in the sub-110 range)
6. Primarily for "Gulf Coast Cruising and Off-Shore Fun Races" with hops to Florida and the islands every 2-3 years.
7. Around $40K (I don't want to mess with a loan)

With the above in mind, I've narrowed things down to two boats:

1. '80's (to early '90's) Beneteau First 37-40
2. '80's Hunter 40

Now, being around these discussions long enough, I know where everyone is going to immediately go - saying I'm insane for even thinking about the Hunter with the Bene at play. The issue is - I really like the the Hunter 40 for two reasons: 1. The interior is great for 4.a above, I actually like the centerline queen, and with a bit of work and prep, is still very usable for real sailing, 2. It has a PHRF of around 104 (NCPHRF Base) - which is pretty dang snappy, even compared to the Bene. I've looked at several H40's over the last couple of years, understand the issues with the aft holding tank, relatively "lighter" construction, limited storage, etc. - and still like the boat.

Trust me, I've looked at everything (Sabres, Pearsons, Ericsons, Irwins, Choy Lees, Hunter Cherubinis, J-Boats, especially Catalinas, you name it). And though I know these are all great boats for many reasons, the two above boats are my picks for the reasons above.

Now, I know that I basically can't go wrong with the Bene Firsts. But the recreational comfort aspect of the boat is very important to us right now. So, tell me exactly what's so bad about a well-kept Hunter 40.

(PS - I have absolutely no plans to have "-tanic" anywhere in the name. I'm not superstitious - but dang.)


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I don't like the rig. The terminal ends are mushroom head swage fitting that only work on a hunter, You have to go swage on top and their swage fittings only. The double diamand set up. It's a lot if wire and terminal ends for what could be so simple. I have also had to do work for people on the chain plates. They over thought it and skimmped at the same time. Go Benny man.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The mid 80s H40 is a pretty interesting boat. I don't like the B&R rig myself, though it has a conventional backstay and is a masthead rig, the 'pre bend' induced by the swept spreaders and diamond stays is not adjustable enough for me.. but as a cruiser I'm sure that's a minor issue. Huge interior and large enough cockpit - but one thing you'll notice here is the lack of back support. With that large aft cabin this is a boat you find yourself sitting 'on' rather than 'in' while in the cockpit. However that's the trade off for the space below in that area - our boat is similar, but smaller, with a large bridge deck and the tall companionway ladder.

They have iron keels, so some extra attention needs to be paid to that, and at near 30 years old it's probably time to drop and inspect the keel studs and rebed (unless it's been done recently already)

They sail quite well, a fair bit of boat and can be had a reasonable prices.

The one caveat I'd watch for.. we've seen several of that vintage Hunters that have an odor below that's not pleasant and it's difficult to get rid of. Can't be sure of the cause, but I know of some who've bought and regularly used ozonators to try to get rid of it to no avail. Others don't appear to have that issue, but we've seen it on more than a few models over the years.Not sure if it's something to do with adhesives they may have used at certain times, or what exactly....

Can't go much wrong with the B First series either, though. I like the 375 of that era best.


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## finding41 (Jul 19, 2011)

Don't rule out Europe for the boat search. 
You may find an opportunity for a BFS on the way home!
There are a few ideas on this link. 
benneteu (Sail) Boats For Sale
Best of luck with the search!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Thanks for the quick feedback guys. I know it seems like a real no-brainer, but I agree with you Faster, those H40's are interesting boats. I don't know why I've been so drawn to them - but go figure.

Finding, I _love_ the prices of the boats in Europe - but the shopping/transporting issues seem seriously daunting.


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## finding41 (Jul 19, 2011)

Smack. Have you ever bought anything on line? Its easy! Those sailing type of folk seem to be honest too. 
As for shipping it home. Its a ship! I know the trade winds come from the West. Just tack a few times coming across the Atlantic. (I think your on the left coast. Right?) Well there is this river kind of thing that cuts through a small country called Panama. Just take that route. It will save a few thousand NM. 
Summer vacation is coming up. It'll give the kids some thing to do. You'll always know ware they are. Wind is free.


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## finding41 (Jul 19, 2011)

Smack. I forgot to mention the crew thing. You could probably get a few (hundred) volunteers from an online sailing community I belong to.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> So, tell me exactly what's so bad about a well-kept Hunter 40.


A couple weeks ago I was talking with a surveyor about hunters. He said he saw one get crushed just by being lifted in the slings of a travel lift. They're too lightly built. Since your list is narrow see if you can bend the ear of a surveyor and ask them about your chosen boats. A good one will have seen it all before.

There's also that Bob Perry guy, who offers boat purchase consulting services. He might know a thing or two....

Personally I really like beneteaus. I think they hit the sweet spot between being light, but strong enough, and well performing yet safe. Other reasons to hate the Hunter are the BNR rig. You'll NEVER be able to even dock-tune that thing without going aloft 4 times. Also too many bits to replace, inspect, and possibly fail. Hunters also have travelers that are usually 2 ft long. Basically, they don't have mainsheet travelers at at all. As a performance oriented sailor, that'll eat you up as you boom won't be center-line and your sail shape will suck, never mind not being able to dump the traveler when the wind picks up.

The queen bed in the aft cabin sure is nice though.

MedSailor


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

smack, Have you looked at the early 90's Bene Oceanis 400? PHRF around 120. The only complaint i have is it's not really set up to single hand. I'm adding winches aft to help remedy the issue. (can never have enough winches) I was very surprised that this boat is a very good performer. I've seen a few racing down on the gulf coast. Mine is a retired warhorse from florida. 

I would never buy a hunter, they make Bene's look like swans. I never thought hunters were very well built. It's that chopper gun; i just can't get over it. Sorry guys. 

By the way, welcome back smack


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Smack, this has got to be a big change in the boys lives, and unless you've got an incredible relationship with them, they still will be holding some things in. It might be very important for them to be involved, full-equity-partner type involved, in choosing the new boat. Getting their opinions, making them part of the process, gives them strength and respects that may also help them through these hard times.

Stuff like rigging, rigging can be changed. Layouts, engines, odd quirks, with three sets of eyes they'll compare differently. Beware some of the Bene's that have a rudder as deep or deeper than the keel. A soft grounding can became a $7000 rudder job with that.

Fair Winds and Kind Seas.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

What about a Choate Feo 37? PHRF of 108 and a 6.5' draft and 50% ballast. There's even one for sale in Texas with a brand new (still under warrenty) beta diesel for $33K. Seen them entered in the Transpac and Bermuda races. Interior looks comfy and the build (Canada Seacraft) is purportedly very good.

CF 37

Sailboats for sale in Texas:
Boats for sale by owner in Texas

Agreed about the 'Tanic name. I'd advise against Triumph as well. Wasn't good for Doug or Carnival Cruise Lines.... 

MedSailor


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Benne fo shizzle.


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## cruisingdream (Feb 7, 2007)

My dock neighbor loves his hunter 40 , fast boat around the buoys, and plenty of comfort below


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

hellosailor said:


> Beware some of the Bene's that have a rudder as deep or deeper than the keel. A soft grounding can became a $7000 rudder job with that.


I talked with a guy in the yard a few days ago that did a similar repair, except his rudder is the same size as the keel. When he ran aground, he had a number of people situated far aft in the boat, apparently making the rudder deep enough to cause damage.

So careful loading it too, even if the rudder is shorter.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I deliverd a Benny first. I had water in the bildge and could not figure out where it was comming from, Finally I traced it to the rudder post 'Well". It comes up through a "tube". No seal or gland on top. The owner had put a life raft on the sugar scoop for the voyage and this brought the stern down. just a few inches, but enough to cause water to splash up over the top of the well in any kind of sea. Still loved the boat though. I HATE HUNTERS....AND almost alway's the people on 'em....jus kidd'n.....not really. my buddy delivered a Hunter once, it's rudder post bent just from being on the same tack for 5 day's. He could not turn to port when he got to Mexico. We had do drop it out, bend it straight, and ram a wooden dowel and 5200 up it to renforce it. Because it was HOLLOW!


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

You know what it is, I always look at people on those Hunter Passages as suckers. I know how poorly they are built and how expensive they are. People bought in to the fancy insides. Almost alway's it's first time boat owners who just sold the house and had a list of must haves in order to move on a boat. It's like that cardboard fort I made when I was a kid. It was awsome, 3 rooms, all the frills, I even ran and extension cord out there and had lights and my little T.V. I felt like king of the world out there watching the Dukes of Hazzard, then it rained one night, I woke up to find a soggy pile of crap in my back yard. That's what a Hunter is, a wicked nice cardboard fort. IMO.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

There's a lot I don't like about the Hunter Passages and much of the recent line (since mid 90s).. Stories like Aaron's and others I've heard are not encouraging (an early "arch" model flexing badly in moderate seas).

But I do think that a narrow range of post-Cherubini models are nicely drawn, nicely rigged boats easily up to the typical coastal cruising that most of us do. While the early/mid 80s 31,34 & 40 footers did use the b&r rig, at that time they retained the backstay and they were masthead rigs. I'd guess the serious "trussing" of the rig allowed a smaller lighter section. The later Legends (33.5, 35.5,37.5, 40.5) featured nicely proportioned non-b&r fractional rigs. They lost me when they went to the hot tub cockpits and backstay less rigs, and with the three storey passage boats (great liveaboards, though, I'd imagine)

Still, they sold lots of them and they are all over the used boat market.. So we're stuck with them.....


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Get what makes you happy.

Dave


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> Get what makes you happy.
> 
> Dave


Get what makes US happy Smack. Think of us.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Capt.aaron said:


> .....Almost alway's it's first time boat owners who just sold the house and had a list of must haves in order to move on a boat......


Funny, I know I couple that sold their house and bought a brand new Hunter 45 a couple of years back ('09 or '10 model). They are far from first time boat owners, however. They take impeccable care of it, but have had some weird issues. Core penetration of something in the cockpit, mast step issue, some other things. Mostly fixed under warranty, but still.

Just last weekend , as we're al commissioning, I heard them mention they may want a new boat. The word Trawler even came out of their mouths and this couple are true blood sailors for decades, with no physical limitations to warrant the change. The boat must be becoming a frustration.

On the other hand, I've known people with older Cherubini Hunters (70's and 80s) and they've been very happy with them.

I agree with Chef, however. Smack should get whatever makes him happy.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I just hope we are all saying " good going Smack, congradulations" instead of "we tried to tell Ya." He will have structure issues on the Hunter. I will say the people on the H. Passages I've seen SEEM happy,.... bilssfully. 
The people I have seen on Benny's ARE happy, beacause they KNOW they have a good boat.
But of course, get what makes him Happy. I have some weird tastes that no body understands. My boat is set up so weird, most of you would shake your head in wonderment as to why I do the things I do. This is, after all, a peanut gallery.


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## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

Don't listen to all the Hunter-Bashers, smack. I've seen one hell of a lot of Hunters out here cruising, since we left Kemah in November. No one that I have met with one has had any major issues, and love their Hunters. Get a good survey on whatever you buy....goes without saying. I agree - nothing with "tanic" in the name!!!

Best wishes,
Ralph

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/brogdon/


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

RTB said:


> Don't listen to all the Hunter-Bashers, smack. I've seen one @#!*% of a lot of Hunters out here cruising, since we left Kemah in November. No one that I have met with one has had any major issues, and love their Hunters. Get a good survey on whatever you buy....goes without saying. I agree - nothing with "tanic" in the name!!!
> 
> Best wishes,
> Ralph
> ...


Or, ask your self WHY are there so many Hunter Bashers out there? And almost all of them are people that have been around sailboats since birth. I was raised on a sailboat. I think anyone defending a Hunter either 
A. did'nt know they where nicely painted crap when they bought it and 
B. have to now protect there decsion to buy said crap 
C. Don't yet know what is lurking below the surface.
I think most of 'em where sold to dessert dwellers from Texas who wanted to go sailing , which is why you see so many out that way. They are nice from a Landlubber perspective for sure..


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

There was one Hunter that impressed the hell out of me...S/V Sequitur...sailed by a very salty SNer named Michael. You should search his threads here about that sail (as well as his blog if it's still up).

In fact, that H49 not only successfully took him and his wife from Vancouver down around Cape Horn and up to Florida, but held up remarkably well in an F10-11 storm just off the Horn.

Now I won't claim to know the particulars of how the '80's era H40 (or the newer H49 for that matter) is put together, but the ones I've looked at seemed to have held up pretty well for ~30 year old coastal boats. But I do know one thing for sure - real crap sinks in Southern Ocean F11s...every single time. That Hunter did just fine.

So I tend to take the bashing with a grain or two of salt.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

O'K. That's impressive. A storm on the Horn. The big question is, did they take some action towrds beefing it up before they took on the Horn. And what issues arouse from the pounding? Hunters are not known for their structure, matter of fact just the opposite. People row across the Atlantic in open boats, My family's neighbor crossed in a 5 1/2 foot boat. 
It's true, I hate Hunters, I'll admit it. I am a Hunter Basher. You can take that with much more than a grain of salt. I don't claim to know the particulars on them either, just what I've noticed and heard. Maybe it's all malarky? I've been known to change my mind on things. Like the Prout catmaran I hated all my life, then I read sailing promise and now I'm a fan.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

I've been trying to convince my dad to buy and pay to maintain/ race the boat that'll make me happy- and make it all seem to be in his best interest- and I'm having trouble shifting gears. The bene/ swan reference a few posts ago brings to mind the freres design Benes- which I like just a bit more than the farrs. What- the first 42 something and the 456. So- there you have it. I'm having trouble shifting gears.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

He definitely did some beefing up - but nothing drastic from what I recall. You can see the list of upgrades on his website http://www.yacht-sequitur.ca/, along with why he chose the Hunter in the face of everyone telling him he was crazy.

Take a look at his blog. The boat held up very, very well and suffered no serious damage. That's why I was so impressed. I started a thread here talking about it so you might be able to find those links here.

You know way more about boats than I do, aaron. No doubt. I've just never been fully convinced that they suck as much as people say they do. I completely understand that they are built more for enjoyment at anchor than seriously hardcore sailing. But when the PHRF is 104, and the interior is as nice and roomy as it is, and I know I'm going to be sailing the coast pretty conservatively with family and friends, it's just not something I've been able to rule out yet.

Does anyone around here actually own a '80's era H40?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

In the 80's I think Hunter was first transitioning from "small cheap boats built to a price" to larger stronger boats.

They got a lot of people on the water with affordable boats, and affordable often means corners have to be cut, one way or another. But on a larger boat, if what you need is there and in good working order...

What the hell, Beneteau also cut corners. They saved thousands by using IRON KEELS instead of proper lead ones, but you don't hear a lot of people complaining about the whole boat anymore, do you?

I'm still saving up for a proper tungsten keel sabot, so please, save all your old tungsten light bulb filaments up and mail them in to me?


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I actually don't know that much really. I think thats why I like things so overkill beefy. I don't trust the factory. I beefed up my beefy little sloop over kill and still plan to do more. I've learned more here on sailnet than I knew before. I was walking around a Marina the other day with my Father in law, and was pointing out all this stuff I learned here. That Jeff moderator guy has a ton more knowledge on the particulars of different models and designs hold up. I just know what i like and that is subject to change.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I think I know more about the ocean and how to cross it than I do about the production boats. If it floats and can catch a breeze I can get her there. I prefer to do it on something heavy is all.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Smack D,

I would have to say that I basically agree with Ron (Faster) that the mid to late 1980's Hunter 40 was a very nice boat. On the internet there is a tendancy to see the court of public opinion routinely trashing Beneteaus, Hunters and Catalinas. 

The reality is that these companies have produced a broad range of products and some were much better than others by that same company. Despite all the trash talk, the Hunters of the 1980's were better built than many of their competitors (and even than many higher rep boats like Oday and Pearson) from that era. 

The H-40 was an especially nice design. They sailed well and were comparatively well constructed. A surveyor friend of mine was seriously thinking of buying one. I asked him about why a Hunter, and his response was that the Hunters of that era rarely came up with serious problems. I spoke to other surveyors who echoed that opinion. 

I personally think that things went down hill at Hunter in the 1990's by which I do not think thier designs were as well rounded and some of thier structural details we questionable in my opinion. During this same period, Beneteau's First Series greatly improved. 

My recollection is that the tall rig- deep keel versions of the Hunter 40 had a lead ballast option. This is not a design to clutter up with a cutter rig, but you will want to have a low stretch #3 (105-109%) in your inventory. If I remember right some of these boats had cast iron rudder quadrants which proved a little troublesome, chewing up cables. I personnally do not like centerline aft berths for long distance passage making such as the Gulf jumps you are thinking of making, but you may be able to rig leecloths. 

The one that I raced on had larger genoa winches installed, and they were barely up to the job for racing with a 155 in a breeze. The boat did well upwind but had a bit of the masthead chute downwind roll to death roll associated with boats of that era.

Jeff


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Awesome. That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for Jeff. Thanks.

Just for clarification - are you saying that the '80's era Firsts were not as well-built as the '90's era Firsts?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I would not quite say that the '80's era Firsts were not as well-built as the '90's era Firsts since each had some 'betters' and 'not as good's about them. 

What I would say is that the early to mid- 1980's Firsts were full of idiosyncratic details, many of them did not work all that well. I raced on a couple First 345's and on several 42's. 

They were notorious for details which did not make an easy transition from European standards to US standards. They were very hard boats to service, with plumbing and electrical almost totally inaccessible for repair or replacement. I know that the First 42's seem to be held in very high regard these days, and yet one of the two, that I raced on tended to flex very noticably, would jamb its head door and creak terribly when being driven hard up wind. 

In the 1990's, the Firsts seemed to employ a more complete and better engineered molded in force grid and seemed to take a big leap forward in build quality and Americanization of their details. 

My friend's First 38s7 that I sailed a little, seemed much stiffer and better constructed than the 42 and 35 that I had sailed in earlier years, and the 40.7 seemed like monumentally better boat structurally. Even so, I heard from the owner of a 40.7 that he damaged the forward transverse frames beating at speed into a tall chop, and launching off of waves off Hatteras. 

I replaced a head and some of the electrical system on the late 1990's era 38s7 and everything was relatively easier to access. Finish levels were much nicer as well. 

As a broad generality the 1980-1990's Beneteau Firsts were more sophisticated designs than the Hunters. The racing versions of the Beneteaus were also slightly better equipped. The problem was that both companies optioned the living daylights out of their boats so you might sail a lead deep draft keel, tall rig version, set up with proper winches and think "Wow, what a great boat!" and then get on some iron keel-short rig version which left you thinking "What the heck were they thinking?". Its in the gap between the base level and the fully loaded versions that you can get the negative verdicts from the court of public opinion. 

Jeff


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Steve, 

I have spent time on a Hunter Legend. THe 40.5 is a nice sailing boat and very comfortable. It was as well made (or batter) than most of that era. SHe doesn't point as high as other boats, but she makes up for it on a beam reach or run. I would buy one. Given what we spoke about, I think it would be a great boat to consider for future plans. And as I am very good friends with a very knowledgeable sailor on the 40.5, I could give you at least one insight to someone who owns one, lives on it, and also works on boats for a living. All of that, and he chose a Legend.

I would consider paying a bit more to get one in better condition. Same for the 37.5.

My opinions. Good to see you around.

Brian


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Thanks CD/Jeff. Great feedback. It's great to be here and talking about boats again (oh, and I'd love to hear from that owner BTW). 

I have always loved the Firsts. But, I will admit, within my specs/budget - the biggest downside for every one I've looked at thus far is the stupid headliner. THEY ALL SAG! And it's not cheap fixing them. But...they sail...no doubt.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Smack, you should buy my boat!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

By the way, the boat I was commenting on was the earlier Hunter 40 and not the Hunter 405. The 405 was a later design and one that I am barely familiar with. The deep keel Hunter 40 went to weather very well. The 405 was a fractional rig and generally had less than 5'-0 draft shoal keels with winglets and so might not go to windward very well. They also had rolled out hull to deck joints which are far more vulnerable than the 40's through bolted inward flange. 

And I too want to say that I am very glad to see you back on the board and starting to think in a forward direction. 

Jeff


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bubb2 said:


> Smack, you should buy my boat!


You do have a pretty sweet Bene bubb. That was a great afternoon of sailing.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Thanks CD/Jeff. Great feedback. It's great to be here and talking about boats again (oh, and I'd love to hear from that owner BTW).
> 
> I have always loved the Firsts. But, I will admit, within my specs/budget - the biggest downside for every one I've looked at thus far is the stupid headliner. THEY ALL SAG! And it's not cheap fixing them. But...they sail...no doubt.


Anytime to speak with him. He and I are very, very good friends. Damn knowledgeable sailor too. Been all over he carribean, bahamas, spent 5 years in venezuela, etc.

My issue with the FIrsts is that they aren't fast enough to outrun a solid, high performance race boat so you are going to be running PHRF anyways so get something that does OK, but is comfortable for the family - which is critical if you ever want to look into more distant options as we discussed.

THe fridge and freezer on that boat is big enough to put a few refugees in, the salon is wide and comfortable with nice backroom, the table is large for several people, the aft berth and showers are great and roomy, and the cockpit is nice and well made. THere are two heads which is nice when you get two boys aboard and the nonskid is better than most boats. THis isn't a thin-plastic boat like some Hunter has made. There are a few little building glitches with it, but all boats have them (errhmm, except mine of course!!). I know that boat will run a comfortable 7.5 in 15-20. I have been there when it did it. Course, I was running about 8.2 so (hehe... had to throw that in there). That is a live-aboard boat, btw. BIG DIFFERENCE from a weekender that is light and empty.

Anyways, happy to help.

Brian


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> You do have a pretty sweet Bene bubb. That was a great afternoon of sailing.


Smack I didn't know what to say when I heard about your wife. The thing I do know is both your wife and Courtney sailed on my boat so I going to be real picky about who it goes to.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Cruisingdad said:


> My issue with the FIrsts is that they aren't fast enough to outrun a solid, high performance race boat so you are going to be running PHRF anyways so get something that does OK, but is comfortable for the family - which is critical if you ever want to look into more distant options as we discussed.Brian


Brian, my estemed colleague, What the heck are you talking about? The Beneteau 40.7 I raced on won Key West, Block Island, the IMS East Coasts, Cheapeake High Point several years running, several Carribbean races. Sisterships won thier class in the Bermuda race, Sydney-Hobart, Solent Race Week, and the Fastnet. And none of them have sagging headliners.

Cheez. Name one Hunter or Catalina that did anything like that...

Jeff


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

Is a c&c 38 not an option? Sweet sailing boats with looks.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Remind me again, What makes the 40.7 such a wonderful boat? All kidding aside, the 40.7 was on our short list. Didn't they make a two stateroom version?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Smack, I'm sure you are tuned in on this one. Buy the boat that is suited for 90% of your use. If you're not going to cross the Gulf or an Ocean routinely, then you don't need a boat designed for it. Get the fast coastal cruiser that you and the boys will make memories on.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

There ahs been a Jeanneau Sun Fast 37 on lk texoma for sale off and on for a couple ofyears......deep lead keel, tall mast..........then I can give you the joke I play on folks when they ask what kinda boat I have.......LOLOLOL, then you can com etalk about BFS'ing ont he jeanneau owners forums. They need another rable rowswer on that forum. I can only do so much..........

Marty


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

GeorgeB said:


> Remind me again, What makes the 40.7 such a wonderful boat? All kidding aside, the 40.7 was on our short list. Didn't they make a two stateroom version?


That particular 40.7 is the poster child for low waters and the need for dredging here in the Great Lakes. She ran aground on a shoal off the Portage Lake channel when trying to duck in from the weather on the return trip of a Mac Race. Apparently the waves beat her up until she sprung a leak.

Smack - Sounds like the Hunter 40 would suit your needs well. I've sailed and raced aboard a 92' Legend 375 wing keel and was impressed with both the accommodations and sailing ability. I wouldn't hesitate to own one as a coastal cruiser if you're looking for decent speed and a comfy basement.

Have you looked at the Pearson 36-2 & 39-2? Both are late-80's boats with a good turn of speed and very roomy cabin. I think the 36 PHRF's at ~126 and I assume the 39 does even better. I've been aboard a couple of them on the hard recently and think they are fairly well put together, considering the price point. Perhaps a half step above the Hunters/Catalinas of the same era? Shaw's design is no-nonsense and sails well, so I'm told.


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## Jetexas (Apr 3, 2012)

Smack, the Seahorse is for sale as my girlfriend just talked me into an O'day 34.

1984 Starwind 27 Sailboat


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Thanks for the feedback guys. 

Minne, totally agree.

Bluto, I do really like the Jenneaus. They're in the mix as well, there's just not a lot of them out there (which is usually a good sign that the owners like them).

Smi - it's good to get your endorsement of the Hunters. I have done some off-shore racing on a Pearson 365 the last couple of years. They are definitely well-built, comfortable boats. I'm just personally not a fan of the more "traditional" interiors - and definitely want two cabins purely based on who will mostly be sailing with us (family and friends).

JT - 27'? Too little dude! I wanna go the Full 40!

Actually, there is an O'Day 40 on YW in my price range. Nice boat, but I want nothing to do with the cored hull.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Are you SURE that the O' 40 has a cored hull? While the deck is balsa cored, I can state with confidence that my O'day 35's hull is solid glass. Also; I believe that when these were produced (1986 - 87) that O'day was not producing cored hulls.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

eherlihy said:


> Are you SURE that the O' 40 has a cored hull? While the deck is balsa cored, I can state with confidence that my O'day 35's hull is solid glass. Also; I believe that when these were produced (1986 - 87) that O'day was not producing cored hulls.


Actually, no, I'm not sure. I did a quick search of that year model (it's the 1986 model on YW) and saw lots of references to the cored hull. So I was going by scuttlebutt more than fact. Anyone know for sure?


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Despite GordMay's post on Cruiser's Forum, I would check it myself. This is the Internet you know... I have read in several places, including a BoatUS review, that the O'day 35 has a cast iron keel. My O'day 35's keel is made from a grey, relatively soft, non-magnetic, metal...


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Smi - it's good to get your endorsement of the Hunters. I have done some off-shore racing on a Pearson 365 the last couple of years. They are definitely well-built, comfortable boats. I'm just personally not a fan of the more "traditional" interiors - and definitely want two cabins purely based on who will mostly be sailing with us (family and friends).
> 
> Actually, there is an O'Day 40 on YW in my price range. Nice boat, but I want nothing to do with the cored hull.


Actually, the P36-2 & 39-2 are not at all like the old school Pearsons and do indeed feature two/three cabins (door for the forward and aft cabin). These were 2 of Pearsons last boats before closing their doors.

I think the O40 started as a solid glass hull and shifted to a cored hull somewhere through the production run. FYI - They are built from the Jeanneau Sun Fizz 39 mold.

Smack - You might consider finding a copy of John Kretschmer's _Used Boat Notebook_ as it contains his review of the Hunter 40. I haven't read the review, but I'm assuming he likes the H40 since it's listed under the "Forty Great Used Boats" section in the book.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

kwaltersmi said:


> Smack - You might consider finding a copy of John Kretschmer's _Used Boat Notebook_ as it contains his review of the Hunter 40. I haven't read the review, but I'm assuming he likes the H40 since it's listed under the "Forty Great Used Boats" section in the book.


+1 I'm a big fan of Kretschmer. He's a delivery captain with loads of experience and he's REALLY funny to read. Even if you learn nothing, the read will be good entertainment. "Flirting with Mermaids" is an awesome book which is fun to read but has little nutritional value. 

Surveyors and Delivery Captains are the guys you want to be talking about to REALLY get the skinny on a boat type. Previous owners are a distant third. Asking owners about the boats they currently own is damn near pointless. We're all hopelessly in love with our boats, and blind to their flaws. Talk to the delivery captains that had to work them to weather in the off-season. The'll tell you which delivery jobs make them smile and which ones make their hearts sink when they get the call.

MedSailor


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> Brian, my estemed colleague, What the heck are you talking about? The Beneteau 40.7 I raced on won Key West, Block Island, the IMS East Coasts, Cheapeake High Point several years running, several Carribbean races. Sisterships won thier class in the Bermuda race, Sydney-Hobart, Solent Race Week, and the Fastnet. And none of them have sagging headliners.
> 
> Cheez. Name one Hunter or Catalina that did anything like that...
> 
> Jeff


Sorry Jeff for the late reply. First, let me say that I did not express what I meant well. So if you (and Smack) will bear with me, I will give you my opinions on a few things. So here goes... bear with me...

I used to be a pretty good bowler. Last competitive game I threw a 268. I even won the USBC County championship for Clark County which includes Portland and Vancouver. I have always made money bowling... never lost, not once. I have a load of pins, certificates, awards, and even a big purple USBC Clark County Championship shirt which isn't easy to get. On that particular game, I threw one of my worst games (didn't even average 200 scratch). I had guys throwing 220 average, which is a bit over semi pro. Yet, I beat them. WHy? Handicap. I have lost games where I have thrown a scratch 250 to a player that barely throws 130, and won games just the opposite. I came to realize it was all a bunch of crap. Handicap is for losers. If you don't throw straight up, what are you really proving? Scratch Leagues and Semi Pro are the only way to go. Otherwise, you are only playing yourself, and celebrating your mediocrity.

Now fast forward to racing. I have used this example before. We did a distance race some years back. Overnighter, maybe 110 nm ballpark. Not a long race, but not beer can either. There was a FLying Tiger, an Olsen 30, Bene 10m, a Tartan, Farr X I think, and quite a few other boats. The key 'other boat' was a IP 38 IIRC. We finished the race. We sat down at the bar. We had our third pitcher of beer, celebrating our great time. The IP finally passed the finish line (whether he passed bow first or stern first is up for conjecture). Guess who won? The IP. Are you kidding me? WIth his corrected PHRF, he beat us by some minutes. Another example of this is the Conquistador Race in Charlotte Harbor where the winner twice was some cruising boat. That race has over a hundred entries. I also participated in that race.

So what are you racing for with PHRF? THat bene 40.5 is NOT the fastest boat on the water - not by a long shot. Can he outrun a Farr 40? 38? Flying Tiger? Melges? J122 or Jx? Heck, can he even outrun a modern Bene First? Can he outrun a 40.5 that is tricked out with carbon fiber, new mylar sails, and gutted below just to race? NO! Well, hold on, yes. Yes he can. Why? Because he has a PHRF. His time is corrected based upon some nebulous average of other Firsts. The reality is that he is racing against himself and an average. And with that average, doesn't he stand just the same chance, if he sails well, to beat a TP52 on a IP38 with corrected time? And any prize you win, isn't just a consolation prize for mediocrity? So what I was trying to say was to get a boat that would be a good boat for his boys that would be a comfortable cruising boat first and foremost. I am in no way suggesting he get a clunker. I recommended a 40.5 Legend which I think is a super boat for the money and not a bad performing boat either (compared to some, but slow compared to a First). Now if he just wants a Man Cave, then get something that can really be competitive. Or if he3 just wants to race, maybe get that First and gut it and trick it out that he can beat many other boats straight up. Because to me at least, anything short of straight up is a Purple Championship Shirt that is little more than a way to celebrate nothing.

I know you disagree, Jeff. Many people do. I know it will be pointed out that some of these boats should not have been placed in the same class, or PHRF is a way to make the playing field equal, etc. I too would not have a 'slow' boat ever again. But when it comes to cruising and sailing with a 9 yo and 12 yo boy on the ocean, well, that's something I know quite a bit about. His boys and mine are the same age. The First is not a boat I would take cruising with two boys, though some have done it. If he isn't planning on cruising with them, or he just wants a fun weekender, then I would kinda agree with you, though I would opt for a Henderson 30 or see if I could get into a Melges or Farr or something else maybe.

Brian

PS Catalina and Hunter do NOT make a boat that can compete with a first (scratch). But lets be honest, that isn't saying much. I have what I think is a good performing boat for a loaded cruiser, but it sure isn't a racer. However, I sure wouldn't want to race a First against a 400 or 42 with a PHRF or a Legend 40.5 with corrected time. Scratch, they would leave us behind like crazy. But anchored, race over, everyone would be meeting on our boats (snicker).

That is where I was coming from. Not trying to upset anyone or any racers. And when it comes to racing Jeff, you are by and Farr (pun intended) a better racer and sailor than I am; certainly more knowledgeable. But I'll still out grill ya, my friend!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

SMack, I believe the ODAY 40 is/ma be a Jeanneau Ginfizz? need to lok the actual jeanneau model up, but there was two sizes of O'Day that came from the JEaneau line as a way to up sell the boat. If it is built like my Jeanneau, the only coring is in the deck where there is deck gear etc. It also would be a quick boat. 

As to whether it is lead or iron.....would swag it is iron if it is a Jeanneau model, as most are iron. I do know of a few Jeanneau's over the last 30 yrs with lead, but generally speaking, most are iron. If you go to iheartoday or jeanneau-owners dot come, both sites have info on those models. I know the jeanneau site has an area with cross references to O'day and Cal boats that where initially Jeanneau models, brought here by Bangor Punta in the late 70's to early 80's and built by those manufactures. 

Marty


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

An Olson 30 is pure sailing pleasure.
O


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Brian, you make a good point, as usual.

If Smack wants to take boys out and cover ground, a faster boat counts. If he wants to do PHRF races every week with them, well, a boat with a winning PHRF rating certainly would make that more fun. Although I suppose one 9yo and one 12yo combined still adds up to just _one _crew weight on the rail. (G) Some of those benes do need crew on the rail, like so many other lighter boats.

Decisions, decisions.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> Brian, you make a good point, as usual.
> 
> If Smack wants to take boys out and cover ground, a faster boat counts. If he wants to do PHRF races every week with them, well, a boat with a winning PHRF rating certainly would make that more fun. Although I suppose one 9yo and one 12yo combined still adds up to just _one _crew weight on the rail. (G) Some of those benes do need crew on the rail, like so many other lighter boats.
> 
> Decisions, decisions.


Honestly, I'm trying to find a good compromise between the two. And, at this point, with a PHRF of 104 - the Hunter 40 really seems to be that for us.

I know friends and family will really like the roomy interior, yet the boat is pretty dang fast for me to have fun with. It's a lot of boat for my price range.

I'm going to look at a couple in Houston next week. There's also a Bene First 375 that I'll probably look at as well.

We'll see.

Anyway, thanks for the all the great feedback. And Brian, I agree with your thinking on this. I want comfortable and roomy, then I want fast.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Smack, it needs to be a J54DS all the way for you brother! Our PHRF is 66! The lowest recorded for our hull on a sister ship is 42! Smokin hot and tons of room. You and the boys can play touch football in the salon.

Oh man, I've got to get out for the shakedown!!!!!!!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Smack, it needs to be a J54DS all the way for you brother! Our PHRF is 66! The lowest recorded for our hull on a sister ship is 42! Smokin hot and tons of room. You and the boys can play touch football in the salon.
> 
> Oh man, I've got to get out for the shakedown!!!!!!!


66?????? You bastard!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> 66?????? You bastard!


Nothing would make me happier than to take you and the boys for a spin. Bring neck braces.


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## rhr1956 (Dec 18, 2010)

Smack, there is a Hunter 45 Center Cockpit for sail up here on Ray Hubbard. I talked to the owner last year. The boat sustained damage in the Galveston hurricane. It was moved up here and has been repaired. He's asking $110,000. If you want to pursue it...I'll get his number for you.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Is it true that no one has mentioned either a Cal 39 or Cal 40 as possible a Smacktanic II?

- SOLID boats (soooooo much better than a Catalina, Hunter, or Euro-plastic tub)
- Pretty damned fast, even by modern standards
- A semi-fixer-upper Cal 39/40 could be had for not too much money, and it would make a great project for Smack and the Smacklings


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I've looked at the Cals, C&Cs, etc (along with everything else over the past few years). Nothing against them - but I still like the Hunter or Bene. And I don't want to go over 40' for now. That's plenty of boat for us.

Actually, one of my all-time favorite boats is the Nelson-Marek 45. Although I'm not a fan of CBs - that is a sweet ride inside and out. I would LOVE to sail one.


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## CatMan22 (Apr 16, 2012)

I don't know Smacky, for someone of your stature and social standing I think you need something more than a run of the mill Hunter or Bene how about this.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

CatMan22 said:


> I don't know Smacky, for someone of your stature and social standing I think you need something more than a run of the mill Hunter or Bene how about this.


But I'd have to name it...S/V "What's In Your Wallet?"


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I'm seeing a trend here...

Smackdaddy keeps defending the Hunter 40 and keeps coming back to this particular make and model. He says he's entertaining the idea of a Bene, but I haven't heard much enthusiasm from him about Benes so far. In fact, there has been a chorus "Benes are better than hunters" but Smack defends the Hunter. 

Smackdaddy should buy a Hunter 40. 

Why? Because, as I've said many times before here, all decisions to buy boats are firmly grounded in insanity, not reason. I've had other boats look better on my pros/cons list but still gone for the one that I couldn't stop thinking about. 

Buy the boat you can't stop thinking about. Buy the boat you're excited about. Listen to that little voice that won't let everyone else tell you it's a tub, or it's ugly, or it's whatever. 

A 40ft boat is going to be quite the relationship, and if you're in love with her, you'll lavish love on her and she'll love you back. If you're not in love with her the to-do list becomes a burden and the flaws start to show through in your mind. If you are in love with the boat, you will be blind to her flaws and she'll be the best boat on the water. 

The only exception to my ramblings above would be if you were REALLY going to buy a POS and were a little too blind. You're not though. You're not cooing over an over-priced ferro boat in someone's back yard, or a half built project or GOD FORBID a wooden boat.

Smack, buy the Hunter 40. You're in love with it and you're not hiding it very well. 

MedSailor


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

OKAY - FINE, I love the Hunter!!! Are you happy now, Med???

Seriously, here's the calculus. If it were just me, or just me and the boys, I'd buy the Bene First in a heart beat. No doubt. It's a better boat all-round - one that could take us anywhere on the planet we wanted to go.

BUT, we're not going to be doing a circ, and likely won't be doing a major crossing. We're just going to be cruising - having fun - and spending a good deal of time at anchor.

More importantly, I really want to get my family and friends into it with us. As far as accommodations, both the kids and the f/f will like the Hunter interior more than they'll like the Bene interior. It's just bigger and "nicer". And I can live with and/or address the "seamanship" issues with the interior. (Plus I seriously don't want to deal with that damn headliner issue - or the red sinks - on the Bene.)

So, take that along with the 104 PHRF and the price point - and I think it's a hell of a good compromise boat. Also, Jeff doesn't hate it - that goes a long way with me.

Finally, if I do buy it, I can come back here and kick butt on all the Benehunterlina-hating Nancies. That's worth the price of admission right there.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I think that if you're cruising, you're basically "playing house" at anchor or slip for a significant part of each day. And the time out there relaxing is a lot nicer if you have comfortable accommodations. With kids or family members aboard, roomy private cabins can be really important.

So yes, you basically want a floating condo. But his boat's PHRF rating shows that it can also be a good performer. So it does give a little of the best of both worlds, so long as you're not venturing too far out into serious blue water.

So go for it. We'll try to curb the Hunter bashing.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> ......Buy the boat you can't stop thinking about.....


With Med's following caveat that one isn't doing something blind, this is really the best boat buying advice. You will need to love your boat in order to live with it and all its expense and occasional maintenance heartbreaks.

When we were looking for our current boat, we considered many different models, from semi-custom to the full on production boat we have. We quickly found ourselves comparing the higher end boats to some of the feature of the J54DS. It became evident that we were fixating, so we found a good one and bought her and have never regretted it.


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

Hey SmackDaddy I know of a Hunter 36 in the Miami area for sale and the owner is a respected member here on Sailnet. Think shes asking well under book on it and Ive been aboard and know its been very well keeped.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

1984 Jeanneau SUN FIZZ 40 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I think this would be better! Sun Fizz 40 at 77k

It doesn't have that nice aft cabin like the Hunter 40. Lots of room for the kids though.



> Price Just Reduced from 87K to 82K - Price Dropped again from 82K to 77K PRISTINE, UNIQUE Jeanneau, Sun Fizz 40, Year 1984 in a PRISTINE CONDITION, TURNKEY ready for a Trip Around the World. I have never seen a boat from 25 Years that is in her Condition & the Equipment she has; the Refit she had & the maintenance that is following till today.
> Nice Shape of Hull, Strong Built, Safe & Comfortable on Sea, Full Batten mainsail & furling Genoa, with a Triradial Spi & an Asymmetric Spinnaker on Bowsprit.
> 53H on a Nanni Diesel that is from 2005, Boat Had a Total refit between 2007 & 2009, Solar Panels, Wind Generator, Electronics from 2009, Check Full Specs.


Smackdaddy, Hope to see you on that hunter 40 soon ! Best wishes


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

A phrf of 104 is smokin hot for a 40'r?!?! faster than CD's slug, but still not fast!! that would be in the 40-60 range. 66 for a 54' boat is also on the slower side. A Swan 45 is in the low doubles, or a -20 or some such thing. The club swan 42 is -60! with a 66, one is competing against a J109, C&C 115............

anyway, slaughter a C400 boat for boat with my 28' jeanneau yesterday, 2nd in class and OA in the first race, did not do well in the 2nd,altho 3rd in class, 3rd race 2nd in class and 3rd OA, again, beating ALL the 40' cruiser style boats, including the C400, 2 C420s...........

but I digress, I still like the idea of a Jeanneau for a smacktanic II, we need some smack talk onthe owners forum........LOLOL

Marty


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

blt2ski said:


> .....66 for a 54' boat is also on the slower side. .....


Hey, hey, hey. That's fully dressed with a dinghy on the davits and the dodger up. 

You can strip one down to a 42. She a coastal cruiser, not a racer, so I think that is pretty good. Can't compare her to race designs.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

Well Smack...Its a tad smaller than you are asking for, but its worth a look.

Schock 35.

1990 Schock 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

This one has a full interior, race sails, cruising sails, VERY well built, comfortable, easy to sail...PHRF of 72...downright FAST.

All that for $40k.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

From This:










To *THIS*:










*The Smack-Is-Back with a new yacht!*
Details here:The new ride

Congrads Smack!

MedSailor


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

My, what a big wheel you have.
Cool.
Will be nice to have another Sailnetter in CC.
John


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## bobsaxet (Oct 6, 2011)

I'm the proud owner of two BFS Boozies!
Smack's got a new sled. Sweet! Bob


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bobsaxet said:


> I'm the proud owner of two BFS Boozies!
> Smack's got a new sled. Sweet! Bob


Hellz Yeah! A big thanks to all those who snagged some BFS Gear, adding to the kitty. It definitely helped!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

me personally feels the pics with the black rectangles is better........hides the ugly face!




Yeah I know, someone had to razz the daddyeoh! might as well be me!!! eheheheheheh

Marty


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I think the deeds been done...

Smack, The Boys & Their Yacht : BFSshop.com, is the official home of BFS Gear for Big Freakin Sails!

Congrats SmackDaddy.


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