# C&C 99 motoring speed and a few others



## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hello,

If you own or have sailed on c&c 99, can you please answer a few questions?

-How would you rate performance under power? What is the max speed you can obtain with the folding prop? What speed do you cruise at (assuming no wind)?

Would you say the boat is stiff or tender? At what wind speed do you put the first reef in (assuming a standard main and 140% or so genoa)?

Are you happy with your boat? And lastly, is there anything in particular to look at when you examine a used one?

Thanks,
Barry


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Barry,

I have sailed quite a bit on my friends It is a tender ( as most C&Cs are0 racer first cruiser. They are light at less than 10,000 lbs and need to be reefed usually at 15 knotts. Under power expect about 6.8 at normal cruising. Large spade ruddser gives great control

There are many negatives about this if you are thinking about a used one.

First the rep of the company now. Second the sanwich core below the water line as well as the cvacum bagging build technique. Third an underpowered 15 hp Volvo saildrive. Hard to find parts for vs Yanmar and for me a scary engine configuration vs traditional. Semi open transome. The fit a finish below is no where close to the old C&C s like the one I own.

If you are not into racing I would not own this boat. As a proud C&C owner who has a good solid one from the older models I would not buy a new/ post 1999 one.

Baryy I would look at Sabres.



Dave


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Barry, you might want to post the same question here:

Main index C&C 99 Owners Group

In the forum area, you'll find some pretty good posts relating to sail trim, wind ranges, etc... that'll give you a good idea of what you might be dealing with.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

chef2sail said:


> Barry,
> 
> I have sailed quite a bit on my friends It is a tender ( as most C&Cs are0 racer first cruiser. They are light at less than 10,000 lbs and need to be reefed usually at 15 knotts. Under power expect about 6.8 at normal cruising. Large spade ruddser gives great control
> 
> ...


Interesting... I'm wondering what specifically is the problem with sandwich core below the waterline and vacuum bagging. This is standard for a very large percentage production racer/cruisers (even cruisers) built in the past 2 or 3 decades. It'd be very difficult to find a solid glass boat in a similar length to the 99 that sailed with anywhere near a phrf rating of 99-105 or so. Many if not most boats of this construction type are still on the water and sailed hard... I can't think of any exceptions in our local fleet of 93-99 rated boats. Semi open transom? I guess it's just what one gets used to. I've always thought of open transoms as the best and quickest cockpit drain. I suppose if one was concerned, you could stretch netting across for some added security. My heart agrees with the shaft vs. saildrive... that's a mighty big hole down there, and if the seal maintenance isn't kept up, yikes! But the brain says, many many boats that are raced and cruised these days use them without issue. I haven't sailed a 99, but I'm guessing like many lighter racer/cruisers, upwind in 15 kts TWS, you need active main trim. If you're cruising and don't want to deal with it, sure, put in a reef. Respectfully, it sounds like you prefer a cruiser/racer than a racer/cruiser... different horses for courses...


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Barry, the 99 is a VERY different boat from your ODay! Epoxy hull, carbon fiber spar (at least on most), etc. Much more racer than cruiser. Never sailed one, but looked at a couple during my boat search over the last 2 years. I liked it, but found the head and aft cabin tight. I would think it would be a lot of fun to daysail and race, but a bit small for cruising with more than a couple with small childen.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*owners group web site*



puddinlegs said:


> Barry, you might want to post the same question here:
> 
> Main index C&C 99 Owners Group
> 
> In the forum area, you'll find some pretty good posts relating to sail trim, wind ranges, etc... that'll give you a good idea of what you might be dealing with.


Hi,

When I try to get to the forums, I get a message that the page does not exist. On the regular cnc site (C&C Yachts - C&C Photo Album & Resource Center) I can't find anything specific to the 99.

Barry


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*Additional Info*

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the comments.

After my last 'vacation' on my boat, I have come to the realization that my family is never going to love sailing like I do, and that they are not going to want to spend a week or so on the boat. Day sails yes, overnight or weekend yes, longer than that, most likely no.

If I'm going to have a boat that is mostly used for day sailing, I don't need a 35' or larger boat. And I would like a boat that has more sailing performance. My O'day sails OK, but not great. I think the shoal draft is the biggest reason (and a fixed 3 blade prop is not helping). Plus it's almost 25 years old. So I am *thinking* of getting a newer boat.

If I do get a new boat it must sail great. It must have enough space for 5 to spend a weekend of longer on. It must have cruising comforts like standing headroom, hot and cold pressure water, etc. And it must be available for under$100K.

I found this one less than 30 minutes from my house:

*Long Island Yacht Sales (Bay Shore, NY)

*I looked at it yesterday and it seems solid.

So I figured I would get some comments on it.

Epoxy hull seems like a good idea. Deep keel, low wetted surface should have great sailing performance. Open transom should allow me to get on board from my dingy without too much trouble. Decent interior.

Those are my thoughts anyway. Of course I still need to convince my wife that spending a whole lot of money on a toy is something we should do....

Barry


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Barry,

THe issues with C&C's and Tartans seem to be on the larger hulls that have two halves put together. THe 99 does not have this issue. Also, an 02 seems to be about 3-5 yrs before some build quality issues at C&C with epoxy boats.

A thing to remember about a boat like this, is you do not "HAVE" to sail with a 140 all the time. if by yourself, a 110 may work fine in most conditions. Then have a 140 when you have 5-6 folks on board. I personally do not like the floorplan, ie a forward head on boats. so this one is not on my list to look at. Not sure how many are around, but Jeanneau Built a Sunfast 32 for a few years, which has a rear head. Then again, the 99 is a bit faster at around phrf of 100-105 IIRC vs the SF at 120. Not sure were a sabre falls in to this either. I'm sure a number of points slower. 

A C&C 110 might be another option. about 35' or so, and they go back to 97 or 98, with some fiberglass versions with more room than a 99. I am recalling one in the great lakes for about $99K. 

Marty


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

*mostly agree, with a couple of counter points...*



puddinlegs said:


> Interesting... I'm wondering what specifically is the problem with sandwich core below the waterline and vacuum bagging. This is standard for a very large percentage production racer/cruisers (even cruisers) built in the past 2 or 3 decades. It'd be very difficult to find a solid glass boat in a similar length to the 99 that sailed with anywhere near a phrf rating of 99-105 or so. Many if not most boats of this construction type are still on the water and sailed hard... I can't think of any exceptions in our local fleet of 93-99 rated boats. Semi open transom? I guess it's just what one gets used to. I've always thought of open transoms as the best and quickest cockpit drain. I suppose if one was concerned, you could stretch netting across for some added security. My heart agrees with the shaft vs. sail-drive... that's a mighty big hole down there, and if the seal maintenance isn't kept up, yikes! But the brain says, many many boats that are raced and cruised these days use them without issue. I haven't sailed a 99, but I'm guessing like many lighter racer/cruisers, upwind in 15 kts TWS, you need active main trim. If you're cruising and don't want to deal with it, sure, put in a reef. Respectfully, it sounds like you prefer a cruiser/racer than a racer/cruiser... different horses for courses...


One small caveat--- _Never_ confuse sales success with good engineering or good production techniques for long term ownership. 

Around here we have seen several cored hulls, mostly earlier J Boats (but not all...), with extensive water saturation in the bottom coring. The fix was very very very expensive.

As to judging speed (phrf for only one form of comparison) vs having or not having a fully-cored hull, I would note that my design races scratch with the cored Expresses in the SF Bay area -- all are rated 99 phrf. My Ericson-built Olson 34 is a solid layup hull.
We bought it because it was very fast, very easy to sail fast, and has a full-on cruising interior. (Some friends of ours just bought a Thomas/Tartan 35, with only slightly less interior and a 77 rating!)

There are choices out there... but you have to look around. New affordable performance cruisers have all but disappeared from the market. It's a shame.

Design and production execution are just as important as whether or not the hull is cored.
OTOH, you can most of the advertised benefits of coring if you buy a boat with coring only down to the DLW.

Shaft Drives: Ick.... I have personally seen Volvo S-drives in the yard where the lower drive unit was "swiss cheesed" by electrolysis. While I sail in fresh water now and keep my boat in a new marina with top notch shore power wiring, many other sailors do not have this advantage. We even have a current leakage checking program.

I would worry about the aluminum parts under water just as much as failure of the membrane.
Beyond the saving in building cost, the S-drive system passes along a lot of required maint. to the owner(s). If you explore the Volvo manual (and not to single them out, but I have read their on-line manuals) you find that the membrane replacement frequency is about 7 years. Many owners leave it in longer, and one could speculate that their lawyers made them say that. Still......
On many boats the engine may have to be moved some and the haul out cost will be high.
That's a lot of constant $$$ expenditure just to save some $ on shaft alignment.

Take your time, take lots of detailed notes, and as the Knight told Indy, "Choose Wisely."



edit: to answer the "speed under power" part of the post, it's a 32 footer with a long waterline. I would be surprised if it doesn't motor at 7 kts all day if need be. Type of prop less important than having the prop correctly matched to drive train. Folders are cheaper, though. 
Best all 'round motoring and sailing would probably be with a feathering prop, especially in any kind of tight marina maneuvering situation.

Edit #2 (from the peanut gallery)  If that design sails as well as everyone sez, and that's what they do say, I wonder why on earth it has thousands of $$ worth of wheel steering stuff when a simple tiller would do?
And, if you just want a fast race boat, scroll down a way in the list of boats at that brokerage and look at that S2 7.9 Grand Slam. I used to crew some on one and they are _Fast_.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

olson34 said:


> One small caveat--- _Never_ confuse sales success with good engineering or good production techniques for long term ownership.
> 
> Around here we have seen several cored hulls, mostly earlier J Boats (but not all...), with extensive water saturation in the bottom coring. The fix was very very very expensive.
> 
> ...


Great post! I knew about the J-boat issues, and agree that when looking at cored boats, maintenance and long term love is everything, but they (cored boats) certainly shouldn't be excluded from one's shopping list. We own an E-34 and haven't heard of any of the SC built boats (Alsberg Bros. Express, Santa Cruz, Olsons, Moores ) having hull core issues... and I'll be darned, I had no idea that the Erickson/O-34 was a solid glass hull. Learning new things is good! Just curious, and on a small hijack, what conditions do you find your boat excels compared to the E? There are a couple of O's in the local marina's, but none (nor any 99's) are out racing. And agreed, a wheel on a 30-34' racer/cruiser is a bit odd. Saildrives... yep, it's pretty tough to trust that a used boat has been properly maintained, and the cost of failure and electrolysis is sinking or repower/rebuild/new lower drive, but a survey will find this soon enough. And as you say, about the lack of performance cruisers, sad but true.... It's a shame. Again, thanks for the post!


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

puddinlegs said:


> Great post! I knew about the J-boat issues, and agree that when looking at cored boats, maintenance and long term love is everything, but they (cored boats) certainly shouldn't be excluded from one's shopping list. We own an E-34... and I'll be darned, I had no idea that the O-34 was a solid glass hull. Learning new things is good! Just curious, and on a small hijack, what conditions do you find your boat excels compared to the E? There are a couple of O's in the local marina's, but none (nor any 99's) are out racing. And agreed, a wheel on a 30-34' racer/cruiser is a bit odd. Saildrives... yep, it's pretty tough to trust that a used boat has been properly maintained, and the cost of failure and electrolysis is sinking or repower/rebuild/new lower drive, but a survey will find this soon enough. Again, thanks for the post!


Puddin,
Your bio here looks empty to me. You have an Ericson 34?? Wow! Are you logged in at EricsonYachts.org: The Starting Point on Ericson Yachts!
That's where I usually lurk... having an Ericson-built boat.

When Ericson bought up the tooling for the Olsons (25,911s, and 34) in early/mid 1988, they continued to produce them with solid layup hulls and more "cruising-oriented" interiors. In the case of the O-34, Pacific Boats only built one (cored hull) prototype. The 39 that were built by Ericson really comprise the main production of that model. I have hull #8. Our boat has the optional wheel, ordered by the first owner. We were hoping for a tiller model when we were shopping, but, oh well... 

As you might expect from our MORC-derived hull, we are best at reaching and running. A good IOR hull like an Ericson 33RH can keep right up with us. That should be true for an E-34 (mk1 or 2).

Cheers,
L


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Some of my comments were directed at the type of sailing I though Barrry L does...now I see he wants to know maximize the performance aspects of the next boat and doesnt mind acrifice some of the cruising aspects.After reading about his exploits to Block I thought his family would want something more comfortable in a seaway and dont think the C&C 99 is set up that way.

Good luck in your search barry. Try a number of different designs. Benny Oceanis, Farr, etc.

Hope we meet up next year on our trip north.

Dave


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

Not sure what all the fuss is about. Our best friends bought a 2008 99 and this is its 4th season (reminds me of cars with a 2008 model delivered Aug 2007).

Easily motors at 7 knots. Can go faster. Plenty of power in all situations we have encountered. Only issue with the engine was with faulty shore power that surged and damaged the main circuit board. No issues obtaining replacement.

The boat sails well, performs hands down better than the old C&Cs of the 70s and 80s and is a modern design. The boat is well rigged and the fit and finish seem very good. Altthough a new Tartan is a bit nicer below it is still quite nice. I also sail on a C&C 115 which seems to have a few more problems with the fixtures inside but is otherwise a solid boat.

I can not recall specifically which C&C models have been reputed to have the problems with construction techniques but it was not the 99. 

The bonus is that the newer ones draw 5.5 feet and there are not many performance oriented 32 footers available these days with that shallow a draft. It is not a racer - it is a cruiser/racer but it also has a PHRF between 99 and 105 so is very nice to sail.

Saildrive vs Shaft. personal preference. Shafts tend to leak a lot more from my experience.

Mike


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

*Small World...*

Hello to MikeHoyt!
I thought your name seemed familiar... I used to lurk on the Niagara site, having raced and cruised a Niagara 26 for a decade (starting even before there was an internet).
Loved that boat. A lot. Wife liked it just as much (always an important concern!) 

Nice to run into you again.
Fair winds,
Loren


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

olson34 said:


> Puddin,
> Your bio here looks empty to me. You have an Ericson 34?? Wow! Are you logged in at EricsonYachts.org: The Starting Point on Ericson Yachts!
> That's where I usually lurk... having an Ericson-built boat.
> 
> ...


Express 34... sorry about that.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

BarryL said:


> .
> I found this one less than 30 minutes from my house:
> 
> *Long Island Yacht Sales (Bay Shore, NY)
> ...


Barry, that's one of the 99s I looked at, so they've had it 2 years. I bet they would be willing to strike a good deal. i passed because it had the deep keel (class keel is now the 5'5" one) and minimal equipment. Did look to be in solid shape however.

Jim


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Is there any difference in the rating between the deep and class keel? And is the deep keel allowed in 99 one design racing?


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

There's a 6 second difference in the base rating - 102 vs 96. Not sure about any class restrictions regarding the deep keel in one design racing. I did glance through the class rules (on the 99 class website) when I was considering them but didn't find anything. Note there's also the difference between the aluminum mast and the carbon fiber mast. After a few years of production the factory standardized on the shoal keel and carbon fiber mast version and offered early owners with the deep keel and/or aluminum mast changeouts at bargain prices. An attempt to encourage one design racing.


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## angelog (Sep 27, 2006)

*S2 7.9's are fast*



olson34 said:


> And, if you just want a fast race boat, scroll down a way in the list of boats at that brokerage and look at that S2 7.9 Grand Slam. I used to crew some on one and they are _Fast_.


Yes they are, but I routinely beat them in my 1977 Pearson 10M (which btw is a GREAT sailing boat, stiff and avail for <$20k).

I've read your thread. My buddy loves his C&C110. Very comfortable and fast, but not competitive in PHRF (he has the older version and 6' keel, BS). There are 2 on the Ches Bay, and neither is raking in the silver. That said, it moves very nicely in all winds.

Another boat that you might look at is Beneteau First 10R. They didn't take off like Bene hoped and you can pick them up used for just over $100k. Farr design with a PHRF in the 80's.

Also, not many around, but look for an X-332 .. probably can be had near $100k.

Older boats? Don't overlook a J-30. Remarkable room down below for a 30ft boat .. or a J-32. Also, I'll put in another plug for a Person 10M. We rate 156 here in the Ches Bay and we just won Best in Fleet. It's a very stiff boat, well balanced but it's got a lot of headsail. We used to have a RF with a foam luff that would take me from 155 down to 110 and it sails wonderfully on jib alone.

I'm still eyeing C&C99's. They tried to keep a OD fleet alive in the Bay, but that's fallen apart and it doesn't look like they are competitive under PHRF here with a 108 rating.

Angelo - Pearson 10M "Bella Donna"


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## dwwilde (Dec 11, 2006)

*From a 99 Owner- some perspectives*

As a C&C 99 owner for the last 8.5 y, I can say we have been very satisfied with the boat. We race on the Chesapeake and find the boat, when well sailed, with a coordinated crew, to be competitive in 1 design. PHRF out here is 108.

As to your question regarding reefing, we use a medium 150% #1 up to about 12 kn true. After that we switch to a heavy #2 (135%) , which we can carry up to ~ 18+ kn true. At that point, we can reef the main (1 point) or switch to a 100% #3. The key to decent boat speed in the 99 is to keep the boat somewhat flat. Heel angles above 20 degrees mean the boat begins to lose forward velocity a bit. Crack off the main or put some good twist in the top and that often solves the immediate problem.

One thing that is very cool in these boats is that the steering is basically 1:1. The rudder goes lock to lock in one turn of the wheel. Means steering is very sensitive. Also means that with weather helm, it takes some force to track the boat, especially in waves. However, reduce helm by dropping the traveler or twisting off the top of the main and the sensitivity is a real plus. On the race course, the boat is significantly more agile than others of the same length...even tiller boats (usually because they have smaller rudders).

The Volvo sail drive has performed very well for us. We had some issues with he water integrity of the ignition circuitry but have fixed those problems. At 3000 RPM with a 2 blade folding Volvo prop, we can get ~ 6.5 - 6.8 kn in flat water with no current. Maneuverability is fantastic although with any saildrive you need to make sternway to get steerage, since the rudder is located about 5-6 feet aft of the propeller. Prop walk is minimal at best. Basically, the boat

The cockpit is a bit small for a full racing crew. We regularly race with 7 in order to run a full kite. Upwind speeds are usually ~ 6.5 - 6.8 kn.

We have also cruised our boat a bit. Although the manufacturer says it sleeps 6, I think it is better suited for 2...4 in a pinch. Black water tankage is a bit small, but that also means dead weight in the bow is kept lower, too.

For its price, depending on your sailing needs, it is a good value for a racer cruiser. It certainly is in many ways a better buy than a new J-105 ( which we often beat in racing here in the Chesapeake), which lists I believe at over $200K and is not really conducive to any cruising if desired. The key of course is to sail it well.

Another advantage i enjoy is the ability to easily single hand the boat. The large primary winches back at the helm allow this.

Hope this helps.


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