# Red over Green Navigation Light



## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

Does anyone actually have a red over green navigation light (as allowed for in Rule 25) to indicate a vessel under sail at night?

Am considering installing this, but have never seen one set up. Short of rigging something up myself, anyone know where you can get one? If you have this kind of set up, how did you do it?


----------



## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

Never mind - I searched for this topic before posting, but found nothing pertinent. After posting, the thread appeared in the related topics. Apologies.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

While in the Navy, we memorized the phrase "red over green, sailing machine" to identify sailboats.

Honestly, I think here in the US it would just confuse people, especially powerboaters.
A competent commercial vessel watch officer would be more likely to recognize it, I think.

Edit-
Some earlier posts have SailingDog harping about a 1 meter separation between them. I found this in the COLREGS:



> _Paragraph (c) presents an optional display that is much less popular that the "tricolor" light but that can be employed on sailing vessels over (as well as under) twenty meters. The all-round red over all-round green light are to be used with the regular sidelights and sternlight. Annex I requires that the red and green lights be mounted vertically two meters apart for vessels over 20 meters and *one meter apart for smaller vessels. *This arrangement makes it difficult not to obstruct the arc of visibility of the lower green all-round light, so this option will probably rarely be seen. _


The one meter separation rule seems odd when you can buy this:
http://www.perko.com/catalog/category/navigation_lights_under_20_meters/product/895/


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I finish a lot of races in the dark and that would confuse the heck out of me as to who was on what tack/jibe


----------



## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

tommays said:


> I finish a lot of races in the dark and that would confuse the heck out of me as to who was on what tack/jibe


From the post preceding yours:

​


> The all-round red over all-round green light are to be used with the regular sidelights and sternlight.


In theory, the combination of the mast illumination with standard side lights should eliminate confusion. As a practical matter, probably not, particularly in any sea where the side lights might not be seen very well or at all. Accordingly, we rely upon the masthead tri-color light.

FWIW...


----------



## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> A competent commercial vessel watch officer would be more likely to recognize it, I think.


Stress "competent". There have been a number times I have been mistaken for a fishing vessel when showing sidelights and a stern light only.


----------



## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

tommays said:


> I finish a lot of races in the dark and that would confuse the heck out of me as to who was on what tack/jibe


See, all you have to do is sail faster and finish in daylight. Problem solved.


----------



## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

SoOkay said:


> See, all you have to do is sail faster and finish in daylight. Problem solved.


Or, finish first....


----------



## patrickbryant (Nov 28, 2010)

johnnyquest37 said:


> Does anyone actually have a red over green navigation light (as allowed for in Rule 25) to indicate a vessel under sail at night?
> 
> Am considering installing this, but have never seen one set up. Short of rigging something up myself, anyone know where you can get one? If you have this kind of set up, how did you do it?


I have a red-over-green configuration (Nav Rule 25c) on my Pearson Ariel. I have had some unlicensed recreational boaters ask me what it meant, but everyone who holds a USCG license should recognize the configuration. After all, they had to score 90% or better on the Rules of the Road test to get their license, which includes the light configurations.

I find it VERY useful for a small vessel such as mine. When viewing my vessel from astern at night out in the ocean - devoid of a moon or city lights to illuminate my sails - there is no way to discern that mine is a sailing vessel from the single white stern light. A tri-color light at the masthead still wouldn't identify my vessel as a sailboat at a distance. The only indication that my boat is not a motor vessel is the _absence_ of a white masthead ("steaming") light -- which would never be visible from astern.

I believe the main reason (besides ignorance of the configuration) for avoidance of the Rule 25c optional configuration is the extra power requirements of running three lights at deck level plus two more red/green lights up on the mast. But the extra visibility of the lights at elevation justifies the added power consumption - especially using LEDs, and the red/green lights on the mast can be legally turned off at the skipper's discretion.

I sail in Monterey Bay, California. There are lots of commercial fishing boats out at night, and a moonless night is very dark - no city lights. In the usual 4 to 6 foot swells, my deck-level lights are obscured by the swells about half the time. It seems to me the adage should be: the smaller the boat - the bigger the lights.

The fact that the lights have to be vertically separated by (at least) one meter probably explains why nobody makes them. I had to build my own configuration using a red all-around light at the masthead and four green (starboard) navigation lights one meter down on the mast. If you find someone who manufactures something, please let me know. I never found anything pre-made.


----------



## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

This disucssion is news to me. This west marine link makes no reference to this:
Navigation Light Rules | West Marine

I'll say that regulations have always confused me a bit, as the perscribed solution in that link above lets you use deck level colored lights and a single stern light while sailing - identical to a powerboat.

For my first season I sailed around with the 360 masthead light on, but eventually realized I wasn't technically supposed to, despite the fact that without it, nothing defines me as a sailboat at night..


----------



## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

asdf38 said:


> For my first season I sailed around with the 360 masthead light on, but eventually realized I wasn't technically supposed to, despite the fact that without it, nothing defines me as a sailboat at night..


asdf: What defines you as a sailboat at night is the lack of a steaming light. Rule 25c of the COLREGs gives a sailing vessel the option to show an all around red light over an all around green light in addition to the other navigation lights required. In the case of a sail boat, that would be port light, starboard light, and stern light.

To say that showing your anchor light while underway is "technically" incorrect is itself technically incorrect. Doing so is just plain incorrect.


----------



## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

johnnyquest37 said:


> asdf: What defines you as a sailboat at night is the lack of a steaming light. Rule 25c of the COLREGs gives a sailing vessel the option to show an all around red light over an all around green light in addition to the other navigation lights required. In the case of a sail boat, that would be port light, starboard light, and stern light.
> 
> To say that showing your anchor light while underway is "technically" incorrect is itself technically incorrect. Doing so is just plain incorrect.


Yes thank you, I finally realized that looking back at my own diagram. Somehow that understanding has escaped me for a while.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

its always good to have the rules of the road book or the colregs little leaflets they used to sell...

in any case I agree, the smaller the boat the more the skipper should do to make his boat visible, for obvious reasons like sea state, and the smallness factor, low freeboard etc...


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I hope all the NEW boats i bought were built right 

BUT my powerboats had the red/green bow with the separation to allow direction of travel to be understood with a white all around which ALSO served as and anchor light

My sailboats came with more or less the same bow lighting BUT tend to have a smaller white light on the stern a steaming light on the mast and and anchor light on the masthead 


A LOT of the small powerboat white all around lights are JUST STUPID because they absolutely ensure night vision problems


----------



## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

I've come to associate red over green with BIG sailing machines, because that's the only place I've seen them.

Since you aren't allowed a pizza pie light (mast head red/green/white combo) on an over 20 meter boat, I always figured that the big guys choose the all around red over green as a way to get some lights up high for offshore extended visibility.

My own thinking on my little craft is that the pie light is for offshore, and the deck nav lights are for near shore/harbor calmer conditions. You cannot turn the pie and the deck level nav lights on at the same time, but you do turn on the red over green with deck level nav lights...advantage to the red over green sailing machine. I can figure out what you are and where you're going if I'm near to you or far away.

Never thought about red over green on my little sailing machine, but I can't find a rule that says you cannot. Interesting idea.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

asdf38 said:


> This disucssion is news to me. This west marine link makes no reference to this:
> Navigation Light Rules | West Marine
> 
> I'll say that regulations have always confused me a bit, as the perscribed solution in that link above lets you use deck level colored lights and a single stern light while sailing - identical to a powerboat.
> ...


Well that reference is there not to tell you the rules, but to advise what lights to buy from them. They would be unlikely to reference lights they don't sell would they? You should keep that in mind on all the "WestAdvisor" articles sole goal is to increase there sales. So they are going to be very slanted to the products they sell, and even likely to suggest more expensive or at least more profitable products. Don't get me wrong there is some good info there, just keep in mind it is a sales tool, not a public service. Also they do say "basic rules" so they are not discussing "optional" lights.

When it comes to making sure I am legal I prefer to go to the source of the rules.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

There are so many light configurations, I don't trust I can remember them all. Keeping a readily accessible graphic card of the different combinations comes in handy as well as a sound signal graphic. Can't recall ever seeing a red over green all-round sailboat combination like that. I just keep my normal running lights on although I can definitely see the logic in being identified as under sail. As far as being seen in swells, a masthead tricolor makes a lot of sense. If the price of led tricolors would come down, I would certainly install one.


----------



## redline (Feb 15, 2010)

I thought about installing red-over-green on my boat; my research found that Lopolight make 180 degree green sp in theory an all-round red at the top with a green on each side of the mast 1 m down would work. Stacking the red with their 180 white anchor light would make a very neat - but expensive - installation. 

I'd probably do it ... if I sailed more at night. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

asdf38 said:


> This disucssion is news to me. This west marine link makes no reference to this:
> Navigation Light Rules | West Marine


Go to the source: 33 CFR 83.25(c).



asdf38 said:


> I'll say that regulations have always confused me a bit, as the perscribed solution in that link above lets you use deck level colored lights and a single stern light while sailing - identical to a powerboat.
> 
> For my first season I sailed around with the 360 masthead light on, but eventually realized I wasn't technically supposed to, despite the fact that without it, nothing defines me as a sailboat at night..


Not quite. A sailboat under sail can show sidelights and stern light. A powerboat shows sidelights, stern light, and masthead light (a 225 degree forward facing white light); a sailboat under power shows that same steaming light although it is usually not at the masthead per se but about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way up the mast.

A sailboat under sail may show the red over green all around lights in addition to the deck level sidelights and stern light. I've seen an all around red at the top of the mast and greens on either side of the mast a couple of meters down. At a distance of just a few boat lengths it looks like all around red over all around green.

Alternatively a sailboat under sail can show a single tri-color light at the masthead. The red over green shall not be shown with the tricolor.


----------



## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

I have (will have when it's stepped) the all around red over greens. I used the 180* reds and greens from Lopolight. They are separated about a meter.. I think I did 39 inches or so. Here's my mast head.


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

In my opinion, the masthead tricolor is the most dangerous light array on the ocean. It is only a single, disembodied light waving around in the sky, giving no indication of distance away or the size of the vessel.
Passing through the Anagada Passage on a freighter, I nearly ran down a sailing vessel, because of this and have detested them ever since. From the bridge wing (50 feet up) I assumed the light was a mile or so away, but I didn't even get to the radar in the wheelhouse, before the light slipped by the open wheelhouse door. I was awake, sober and aware of the light, but had no idea at all, how far it was from me. 
The red over green makes great deal more sense and is certainly presents a lot more information, when shown in conjunction with the standard running lights.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I hate tricolors too...they show absolutely no depth or size of vessel and again its 1 light

fwiw my h28 that I cruised on had HUGE wooden and bronze running lights that were beatifully made and hung high on top of the pulpit. same goes for stern light....

compared to other boats of my size and those even bigger I was very very very visible, clear view to them and never unseen.

some of the new stuff was so small I hated trying to figure out what the hell it was...of course after cruising a while we learned what was what for the area we where in and continued on...however I routinely got weird looks and comments about the size of my running lights...

mostly from modern cruisers and sailors...who thought it ridiculous they were so big

anywhoo


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

capta said:


> In my opinion, the masthead tricolor is the most dangerous light array on the ocean. It is only a single, disembodied light waving around in the sky, giving no indication of distance away or the size of the vessel.
> Passing through the Anagada Passage on a freighter, I nearly ran down a sailing vessel, because of this and have detested them ever since. From the bridge wing (50 feet up) I assumed the light was a mile or so away, but I didn't even get to the radar in the wheelhouse, before the light slipped by the open wheelhouse door. I was awake, sober and aware of the light, but had no idea at all, how far it was from me.
> The red over green makes great deal more sense and is certainly presents a lot more information, when shown in conjunction with the standard running lights.


I see your point. But, sailing vessels nearly always only show one light to you, except for a very small overlap where the sectors meet. Furthermore, ANY boat or ship (except those required to show additional all-round lights, fishing vessels, tugs etc) is required to only show a single light from the stern. Assuming random crossing angles, this occurs on average for more than one-third of all crossing/meeting situations since the stern sector (where only the white stern light is visible) is more than 1/3 of 360 degrees (115-245 degs). I know the angles at which ships meet are not randomly distributed so a grain of salt should be taken with this but I am puzzled why a professional mariner would be confused because just a single light is visible.


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

The problem with masthead tricolor lights is that their 'power'/lumens is usually only to the MINIMUM visibility for CG approved lighting. Its really hard to find BULBS, especially in low amps draw LED format, that can provide the intensity output of the lighting used on commercial, etc. usage of more than ~2 miles. 
When speaking to shipping on the open ocean and at distances much further than 2 miles, most report that they simply cannot SEE me ... and then I have to light up with deck lights, spreader lights, bow and stern lights, etc. The danger of the typical tricolors is the damn LOW light intensity and poor 'brilliance' !!!!!!! ... as no one at any 'reasonable' distance can see them.


----------



## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

BoatyardBoy said:


> I have (will have when it's stepped) the all around red over greens. I used the 180* reds and greens from Lopolight. They are separated about a meter.. I think I did 39 inches or so. Here's my mast head.












Looks nice
Please report back after testing it with sails up.


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I see your point. But, sailing vessels nearly always only show one light to you, except for a very small overlap where the sectors meet. Furthermore, ANY boat or ship (except those required to show additional all-round lights, fishing vessels, tugs etc) is required to only show a single light from the stern. Assuming random crossing angles, this occurs on average for more than one-third of all crossing/meeting situations since the stern sector (where only the white stern light is visible) is more than 1/3 of 360 degrees (115-245 degs). I know the angles at which ships meet are not randomly distributed so a grain of salt should be taken with this but I am puzzled why a professional mariner would be confused because just a single light is visible.


In reality, though a sailing vessel may be showing only one light directly, actually they often show more, especially to an observer 50 feet up.
A dual bow light will illuminate the water or spray around the lights, even if a color is not directly visible. Split bow lights will do the same, as well as illuminating the sails a bit in some cases. Often the stern light will also illuminate the water aft or bits of the stern rails, even though the light itself is not directly visible.
As for being 'confused', professional or not, please, please I beg you, inform me how one is to determine distance from a single disembodied light, an indeterminate distance off the water. That formula I would keep handy and share with every other 'confused' mariner, professional or otherwise, who sails the seas, lakes, estuaries, bays, rivers, well you get the idea.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

capta said:


> In reality, though a sailing vessel may be showing only one light directly, actually they often show more, especially to an observer 50 feet up.
> A dual bow light will illuminate the water or spray around the lights, even if a color is not directly visible. Split bow lights will do the same, as well as illuminating the sails a bit in some cases. Often the stern light will also illuminate the water aft or bits of the stern rails, even though the light itself is not directly visible.
> As for being 'confused', professional or not, please, please I beg you, inform me how one is to determine distance from a single disembodied light, an indeterminate distance off the water. That formula I would keep handy and share with every other 'confused' mariner, professional or otherwise, who sails the seas, lakes, estuaries, bays, rivers, well you get the idea.


Point well taken. At short distance, there are other (secondary) cues that may give you distance information which you don't get from a single, isolated light.

On the other hand, there are the constraints on power consumption of small sailing vessels to be taken into account. On my boat, the installed running lights use 6 Watt bulbs. This must be USCG approved, assuming the manufacturer did not do anything illegal. Their light output is puny! My tricolor has 25 Watts. It uses slightly more power than the three built-in lights but it is much brighter.

And I understand that distance estimation is helped if the light is (known to be) close to the water. OTOH, this means that on a small boat, it can be frequently occluded by waves, which for all practical purposes will never happen for a mast top location. And of course its height over the horizon increases the theoretical distance (line of sight) where it is visible.

So, yes, ideally the small boat boat would have amazingly bright running lights at or slightly above deck level. Ain't gonna happen in real life, it is going to be a compromise.


----------



## patrickbryant (Nov 28, 2010)

I rarely sail without having a reef taken in, so obstruction of the green lights is seldom an issue.

We memorize the same mnemonic for a master's license: "red over green, sailing machine." Any USCG licensed mariner should recognize the configuration.


----------



## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Looking good











patrickbryant said:


> I rarely sail without having a reef taken in, so obstruction of the green lights is seldom an issue.


The reason I asked about how it look with sails fully hoisted is that I'm considering a similar installation, some argue that the sails would obstruct the light, I'm thinking that it's not a real problem.

Lopolight is the only one making the 180 degree lights, the Norwegian distributor is not importing these and could not understand why I would this configuration.

Had a mail exchange with lopolight a while back, the response was that sails obstructing was not an issue.



patrickbryant said:


> We memorize the same mnemonic for a master's license: "red over green, sailing machine." Any USCG licensed mariner should recognize the configuration.


I'm not afraid that amateurs would not recognize the red over green together with deck level lights - they would probably think it's a "mean machine"...


----------



## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

knuterikt said:


> Looking good
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The distributor for Lopolight is in FL... Eric is who I dealt with. Nice guy, very helpful.

*E-LED Lighting, Inc.

15188 Park of Commerce Blvd, #14

Jupiter, FL 33478-6406

Tel :*+1 (561) 845-7460

I don't think the mast will interfere, if seen from astern, the sail will cover one side but the other will be lit. If from any angle on the side, the mailsail thickness will be so small it will be either negligible or won't be in the way once you move further forward. The head sails I don't believe will be in the way from the forward off beam because the top of the sail is so small. I could be wrong. As soon as sail I'll definitely shoot some photos, as I'm curious as well.

- Ronnie...on the geaux


----------



## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

patrickbryant said:


> The fact that the lights have to be vertically separated by (at least) one meter probably explains why nobody makes them. I had to build my own configuration using a red all-around light at the masthead and four green (starboard) navigation lights one meter down on the mast. If you find someone who manufactures something, please let me know. I never found anything pre-made.


What make/model of green lights did you use?

Here is the Lopolight Product details










Wonder if one could use two of theses?
Installed upside down underneath the mast steps close to the top of my mast.
Would reflection from the mast a problem, and could it be prevented?


----------



## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

I wouldn't worry about reflection on the mast. You'd only notice from a boat length or so away. If anything the reflection might help project the light, but I don't know how shiny your mast is to make a difference.. From a few miles those two lights and their reflection will look like one

I don't see why two of those wouldn't work though. 

- Ronnie...on the geaux


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

knuterikt said:


> Wonder if one could use two of theses?
> Installed upside down underneath the mast steps close to the top of my mast.
> Would reflection from the mast a problem, and could it be prevented?


I would say absolutely not, as the light is required to be an all-around light and one installed below the masthead would be subject to being blocked in various sections by your sails. This blockage would result in other boats seeing an improper display of lights. The display of a red light from the masthead in the circumstance where an existing, lower green sidelight might be less visible, say due to heeling or the jib, could result in a real mess.

IMHO this whole thread is pointless-waste-of-energy for no particular purpose. If you sail offshore a lot and want a masthead tricolor, go for it. The reason the regs stipulate the single white stern light (for all vessels) is that when a boater sees that light, the observer becomes a give way vessel and their obligation is not affected by the type of vessel displaying that white light, so to what purpose really the red-over-green?


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

sailingfool said:


> I would say absolutely not, as the light is required to be an all-around light and one installed below the masthead would be subject to being blocked in various sections by your sails. This blockage would result in other boats seeing an improper display of lights. The display of a red light from the masthead in the circumstance where an existing, lower green sidelight might be less visible, say due to heeling or the jib, could result in a real mess.


I'm sure he meant two greens and 2 reds, not one of each.

I'm shocked to see a sailing instructor stating; "IMHO this whole thread is pointless-waste-of-energy for no particular purpose."
When anyone buys a boat with a their first tricolor, more than likely he/she has no idea that the tricolor could result in a very dangerous situation. After reading this thread, he/she would then have the information necessary to decide to use or not use the tricolor.
Information is NEVER a "pointless-waste-of-energy for no particular purpose". I hope you do not teach using that philosophy.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

capta said:


> I'm sure he meant two greens and 2 reds, not one of each.
> 
> I'm shocked to see a sailing instructor stating; "IMHO this whole thread is pointless-waste-of-energy for no particular purpose."
> When anyone buys a boat with a their first tricolor, more than likely he/she has no idea that the tricolor could result in a very dangerous situation. After reading this thread, he/she would then have the information necessary to decide to use or not use the tricolor.
> Information is NEVER a "pointless-waste-of-energy for no particular purpose". I hope you do not teach using that philosophy.


FWIW, the OP DID say two of each, but even with two green three feet down from the top of the mast, a sail would still likely periodically obscure any visibility of the masthead green.

This thread is not about the use of a tricolor but of a red-over-green, hopefully you appreciate the difference. I stand by my comment that the red-over-green concept is basically pointless, as reflected in the fact most nobody uses it. Of course, you are correct that my advice in this thread, as elsewhere, is well worth reading.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

SailRedemption said:


> I have (will have when it's stepped) the all around red over greens. I used the 180* reds and greens from Lopolight. They are separated about a meter.. I think I did 39 inches or so. Here's my mast head.


I guess I missed this post first time around. You really should think twice about this, unless your no sails fly from your masthead. How would a masthead spinnaker affect the forward visibility of the green lights? You insurance company, or that of someone with whom you have an accident, may not like this ad hoc arrangement.


----------



## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

sailingfool said:


> I guess I missed this post first time around. If I were you I'd take this post down lest your insurance carrier see it, or it be found by anyone with whom you eventually have an overdue night-time collision.


Why is that? As I read the rules SR's set-up looks perfectly legal, as long as both the red and green lights can be seen from all angles with the sails up.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> .....as long as both the red and green lights can be seen from all angles with the sails up.


All angles with sails up? I doubt that is possible on many sailboats.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> Why is that? As I read the rules SR's set-up looks perfectly legal, as long as both the red and green lights can be seen from all angles with the sails up.


So here is the relevant reg wording on these lights (with my BOLD):
"(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, *where they can best be seen*, *two *all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule."

Now not to get too technical, but to a USCG, EP, or SP rule-enforcer or to your insurance company apportioning fault for an accident:
- 39" down the side of a mast containing masthead halyards is NOT where the lights can best be seen, even though that location is BETTER than some other locations, such as deck-level or in the head. BETTER is simply not the same as BEST...
- and the word two can only be interpreted as 2 not 3.

When you mod your vessel's lighting arrangements in an unusual manner that is arguably not compliant, you are sticking your head out for trouble.

This material will not be on the test...


----------



## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

mitiempo said:


> All angles with sails up? I doubt that is possible on many sailboats.


This is possible to the top of the mast.


----------



## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

sailingfool said:


> So here is the relevant reg wording on these lights (with my BOLD):
> "(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, *where they can best be seen*, *two *all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule."
> 
> Now not to get too technical, but to a USCG, EP, or SP rule-enforcer or to your insurance company apportioning fault for an accident:
> ...


More quotes


> Vedlegg I. Plassering av og tekniske detaljer for lanterner og signalfigurer
> 9.	Horisontale sektorer
> (b)	(i) Rundtlysende lanterner skal være plassert slik at de ikke skjermes av master, poster eller konstruksjoner innenfor vinkelsektorer på mer enn 6 grader, unntatt de ankerlanternene som er foreskrevet i regel 30 og som ikke behøver å plasseres i en høyde over skroget som er praktisk umulig.
> (b)	(ii) Dersom det ikke er praktisk mulig å etterkomme punkt (b) (i) i dette avsnitt ved å vise bare én rundtlysende lanterne, skal det brukes to rundtlysende lanterner, høvelig anbrakt eller avskjermet slik at de så langt som praktisk mulig synes som én lanterne på en avstand av en mil.


If you prefer the English version


> ANNEX I Positioning and technical details of lights and shapes
> 9. Horizontal sectors
> (b) (i) All-round lights shall be so located as not to be obscured by masts, topmasts or structures
> within angular sectors of more than 6 degrees, except anchor lights prescribed in Rule 30,
> ...


Bolded by me


----------



## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

sailingfool said:


> So here is the relevant reg wording on these lights (with my BOLD):
> "(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, *where they can best be seen*, *two *all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule."
> 
> Now not to get too technical, but to a USCG, EP, or SP rule-enforcer or to your insurance company apportioning fault for an accident:
> ...


Let's take this a little more slowly, and without the attitude, shall we?

Take a look at the USCG version of this: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf. Go to page 74. Take a careful look at the illustration. Now, tell me that having the green light a meter or so down the mast doesn't satisfy the COLREGS.

Now, go to Annex I(9)(b)



> (b)
> (i) All-round lights shall be so located as not to be obscured by masts,
> topmasts or structures within angular sectors of more than 6 degrees, except anchor lights prescribed in Rule 30, which need not be placed at an impracticable height above the hull.
> (ii) If it is impracticable to comply with paragraph (b)(i) of this section by exhibiting only one all-round light, two all-round lights shall be used suitably positioned or screened so that they appear, as far as practicable, as one light at a distance of one mile."
> ￼


So, even if the lights on either side of the mast are visible to an observer at the same time, they would still satisfy the COLREGS since there is not enough separation for them to appear as separate lights at a distance of 1 nm.

OK?


----------



## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

sailingfool said:


> I guess I missed this post first time around. You really should think twice about this, unless your no sails fly from your masthead. How would a masthead spinnaker affect the forward visibility of the green lights? You insurance company, or that of someone with whom you have an accident, may not like this ad hoc arrangement.


I'm a professional mariner with a 2nd mate unlimited oceans ticket with a 1600ton masters with 6k itc tonnage endorsement to cap it off. I'm currently sitting for my chief mate unlimited. I thought twice about it, but I appreciate the concern to think about it past just once.

I'd rather have 5 total lights burning when I'm sailing than one combination light. But of course what do I know, I just look at navigation lights of all kinds +6 months of the year.

I'm in accordance with the regulations, I read them. My lights are at least a meter apart, they are where they can be best seen, and are certified by the USCG and IMO. It's hardly a "ad-hoc" arrangement. Lights on masts on commercial vessels are at some times blocked briefly by the mast or halyards, Lloyds, IMO, ABS, USCG, etc seem to be just fine with this.

- Ronnie...on the geaux


----------



## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

If this little conversation has done nothing else it has reinforced my suspicions about the quality of instructors at sailing schools. I don't doubt that some of them are pretty good, but this thread has demonstrated (to me, anyway) that many are not.


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

In regular racing going back to 1981 both distance up to 200 something and local with a LOT of night finishes

1. never recall seeing the red over green ?
2.never had a problem seeing the other boats during are regular tacking duels which require a dozens of crossings with 40 something boats ?


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

SailRedemption said:


> -....I'm in accordance with the regulations, I read them. My lights are at least a meter apart, they are where they can be best seen, and are certified by the USCG and IMO. It's hardly a "ad-hoc" arrangement. Lights on masts on commercial vessels are at some times blocked briefly by the mast or halyards, Lloyds, IMO, ABS, USCG, etc seem to be just fine with this. ..


You are certainly welcome to interpret the Annex text as you choose, and I to dis-agree with your interpretation. You read the words that dont clearly tell you NO, I consider an implementation of an all round light where the light is likely not visible at all, period, at various points of sail as risky, for example, how large an arc would you think the shoulders of a spinnaker cover?

The specific issue I had with re: red-over-green was the desire from post 9 for distinguishing the white stern light of a sailboat as that of a sailing vessel. I point out again that for this purpose a red-over-green light is pointless, as the obligations of a vessel observing the single white stern light are the same regardless of the type of vessel displaying that white light, so being recognized as a sailboat is of no consequence.

Now wanting better visibility at night is a reasonable concern, if you choose to address it by personally interpreting the legalese of the CFRs and installing lights of your choice on the sides of your mast, fine for you, I'm just pointing that out that taking action based your opinion may have consequences, and obviously, may not....

Should we get the input of an admiralty lawyer waving some case law, or perhaps examples of how any European builders have implemented a commercial solution of red-over-green, then we'd all know more.


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

sailingfool said:


> You are certainly welcome to interpret the Annex text as you choose, and I to dis-agree with your interpretation. You read the words that dont clearly tell you NO, I consider an implementation of an all round light where the light is likely not visible at all, period, at various points of sail as risky, for example, how large an arc would you think the shoulders of a spinnaker cover?


I think you are over reacting. The masthead/steaming light on most sailboats is obscured over a very wide angle while motorsailing. The sidelights are often obscured periodically in a seaway.

Red over green on the mast and deck-level lights provide a lot of light at the deck and aloft. If you can afford the energy and the installation they are very visible. If power is your priority a tri-color has a lot going for it together with getting your nav lights out of the swell.

For my part, offshore I sail with a tri-color. If there are visibility issues I rely on "such other lights as may not be confused with navigation lights" like my foredeck light.


----------



## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

SVAuspicious said:


> I think you are over reacting. The masthead/steaming light on most sailboats is obscured over a very wide angle while motorsailing. The sidelights are often obscured periodically in a seaway.
> 
> Red over green on the mast and deck-level lights provide a lot of light at the deck and aloft. If you can afford the energy and the installation they are very visible. If power is your priority a tri-color has a lot going for it together with getting your nav lights out of the swell.
> 
> For my part, offshore I sail with a tri-color. If there are visibility issues I rely on "such other lights as may not be confused with navigation lights" like my foredeck light.


I think this is right on the money. NO solution is perfect. And to reject a solution, particularly one detailed in the COLREGS, simply because it isn't perfect is just plain silly.

On a recent night sail I saw:
- A motoryacht with a red side light that could be seen from at least 35% to the starboard side,
- Commercial fishing boats lit up with flood light to the point that no nav lights were discernible (Obviously they were fishing, but it was impossible to tell their orientation, or whether they were trawling, trolling, or seining)
- Various boats with absolutely no nav lights, or light so dim they were essentially useless
- A guy on a fishing kayak using a headlamp that apparently could be switched (and he kept switching it) from white to red (presumably to preserve his night vision) hanging out to the side of the harbor entrance -- fortunately on the right side, but it was very confusing for a few moments since the red light on that entrance is situated some distance away
- At least two small motorboats with masthead lights almost completely obscured by bimini tops, and a couple of others with masthead lights so low that they were obscured by people on the boat

That was all in ONE night. A sailboat with a red-over-green light near the top of the mast would have been a welcome sight. At least I would have a pretty good idea WTF he was up to.


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Y'all are making much ado about nothing on the visibility issue of these lights. As shown in this pic of Westward, the lights are mounted on one side of the mast, but obviously fulfill the requirements. This is the normal way NUC, towing and sailing lights are mounted on most vessels. In this case I believe there are also NUC lights up there.
Take a look at the commercial vessels when out sailing, and you'll get a good idea of the practical application of the black on white writing in a rule book.


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> I think this is right on the money. NO solution is perfect. And to reject a solution, particularly one detailed in the COLREGS, simply because it isn't perfect is just plain silly.


Agreed.



Puddin'_Tain said:


> On a recent night sail I saw:
> - A motoryacht with a red side light that could be seen from at least 35% to the starboard side,


Well that is just wrong. I've seen it also, but it isn't right and certainly not within the Rules.



Puddin'_Tain said:


> - Commercial fishing boats lit up with flood light to the point that no nav lights were discernible (Obviously they were fishing, but it was impossible to tell their orientation, or whether they were trawling, trolling, or seining)


Cruise ships are often the same. You have to admit you know they are there. *grin* The regs do provide for the use of lights that can't be confused with nav lights and work lights, cabin lights, and walkway lights do apply.

Sometimes it takes a bit to figure out what the wedding cakes bobbing around out there are doing.



Puddin'_Tain said:


> - Various boats with absolutely no nav lights, or light so dim they were essentially useless


More wrong people. You can't fix stupid.



Puddin'_Tain said:


> - A guy on a fishing kayak using a headlamp that apparently could be switched (and he kept switching it) from white to red (presumably to preserve his night vision) hanging out to the side of the harbor entrance -- fortunately on the right side, but it was very confusing for a few moments since the red light on that entrance is situated some distance away


He's correct to use a white flashlight. The red light is a mistake.



Puddin'_Tain said:


> - At least two small motorboats with masthead lights almost completely obscured by bimini tops, and a couple of others with masthead lights so low that they were obscured by people on the boat


Not wise, but I've seen problems like that from the factory. It's worse with aftermarket biminis, especially the universal ones.

On the other hand on the megayacht and superyacht routes I've seen a number of red over green that were very clear and very visible.



capta said:


> Y'all are making much ado about nothing on the visibility issue of these lights. As shown in this pic of Westward, the lights are mounted on one side of the mast, but obviously fulfill the requirements. This is the normal way NUC, towing and sailing lights are mounted on most vessels. In this case I believe there are also NUC lights up there.
> Take a look at the commercial vessels when out sailing, and you'll get a good idea of the practical application of the black on white writing in a rule book.


Agreed.

There are practical issues also including avoiding interference with antennas.


----------



## mrdrew (Jan 6, 2021)

Lots of good posts here. I'd LOVE LOVE LOVE to see more red over green all around lights. There have been several misinterpretations of the USCG COLREGS in this thread. Doing copy/pastes, while helpful, immediately makes the information old. Additionally, going to re-printed information on the West Marine website is also old. The USCG maintains the Rules of the Road COLREGS right on their website, and that should be the one stop shop for all Rules related questions and ambiguities.

There was some banter about lights spacing: 1m, 2m. That's pretty specific, so I'm guessing that came from the ANNEX in the back. Someone find me this detail about the spacing of all red over all green.

(and here I am retyping stuff just like I said we shouldn't)
Rule 25 "Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars"
paragraph (b) says a vessel less than 20m may carry a combined light, the "pie" near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.
paragraph (c) rules say "may" so the red over green are optional. if you use the pie light, you can't use red over green.

all round white lite
Couple things here. Lights you carry can't be confused with any other lights (Rule 20 paragraph (b) ).
If you're real small, sailing vessel or vessel under oars, less than 7m, you CAN display an all around white light. So that right there is confused with other lights isn't it?! Specifically the Anchor Light, Rule 30 "Anchored vessels and vessels aground," an all around white light where it can best be seen, the forepart of the vessel. Less than 50m/150ft you only need one Anchor Light where it can best be seen (paragraph (b) )

From the first page, there was a copy/paste @Ajax_MD paragraph (c) from Annex 1. Not sure where you got that. The word "tricolor" isn't anywhere in the current Rules of the Road. I'd look in Annex 1, part 2 "Vertical positioning and spacing of lights." In fact, putting a big space between the red over green sailing lights might make it more confusing.

@asdf38 you can sail around with your all around white light on, if your vessel is less than 7m/21ft ( Rule 25(d)(i) )

I disagree that lights higher up are necessary for better visibility in ocean swells. It's true that the lights will only be visible occasionally because of swells. But, being out there, I'd prefer a brighter steadier light at deck level that's occasionally visible, than a dim pie light flying back and forth at 20mph.

Can't find who said what here but it's important to know that you're either a: *sail boat*, or a *power boat*. As far as the Rules go, there is no "sail boat under power." The moment you turn on your engine, you're under power, and should display the masthead light (225deg centerline, Rule 21 (a) Definitions for Masthead Light ). As a power driven vessel, you also fall into that category of passing arrangements with other vessels.

Really good discussion here on the finer points of Rules of the Road!


----------



## DU Sailing (Sep 22, 2021)

mrdrew said:


> There was some banter about lights spacing: 1m, 2m. That's pretty specific, so I'm guessing that came from the ANNEX in the back. Someone find me this detail about the spacing of all red over all green.


So in the Annex, Section 84.03 - it says:
(i) When the Rules prescribe two or three lights to be carried in a vertical line, they shall be spaced as follows:
(i) on a vessel of 20 meters in length or more such lights shall be spaced not less than 2 meters apart, and the lowest of these lights shall, except where a towing light is required, be placed at a height of not less than 4 meters above the hull;
(ii) on a vessel of less than 20 meters in length such lights shall be spaced not less than 1 meter apart and the lowest of these lights shall, except where a towing light is required, be placed at a height of not less than 2 meters above the gunwale;
(iii) when three lights are carried they shall be equally spaced.


----------

