# Please tell me this is a nutty idea so I will stop looking at this boat.



## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

I'm hoping to make my first sailboat purchase this year or next. A very pretty 1980 30' Cape Dory came on the market locally several months ago, but just out of my price range. However, the sale fell through because the survey showed engine has a blown head gasket, and the price has been lowered accordingly. It's now well-within my price range, although the repair will be a stretch.

Is it nuts for a novice to purchase a boat that needs a major repair? As much as I love the looks of this boat, it seems unwise for someone with my level of experience to take on a boat that needs major work. Should I just skip this boat and move on? I've been thinking about her for months, sorry she'd sold before I had enough saved to pay the original price.

Thanks, E.

(I don't think this is against the rules - here's a link to the boat Cape Dory 30)


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

Do you know how to repair a head gasket yourself? If you can do the work it;s not a strecth, if you are counting on paying to have the work done I'd say run away.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

A head gasket change is something that should/might be doable without pulling the engine. But the issue, I suppose, is - is that ALL that's wrong? Who determined that was the problem? How reliable is that nugget of information.

The ability to DIY this is a big factor, as xymotic indicated.. cost wise and comfort level wise. Paying someone $80-100/hr will up the ante in a hurry.

A cherry boat with just this issue could be a good deal overall.. but but but.....


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## katsailor (Jan 6, 2013)

how unskilled are you? you could alsways just sail her and fix the engine later if it is on a mooring and you can find an alternative method to charging the batteries.


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Can you fit an outboard bracket on it & put outboard ?? Blown head gasket could mean overheating & why ? Other problems with engine ?


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

if all the others systems are in good shape it would be a good deal 12.5k . offer 11k and and at that price you could afford to have someone replace the head gasket if that is the only real problem. that boat in good shape should sell for in the mid 20s. which engine does it have?


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

I can appreciate the "stretched budget" issue, so let's look at it from a slightly different perspective. If you buy the boat this year and can't fix it yourself, and can't afford to pay someone else to fix it this spring/summer, will you be able to in the fall/winter? Or will you be essentially in the same financial situation at that time?

This is a buyer's market, and another CD may come alone in the interim that will be somewhere between the cost of what you'll pay for this boat, and what you'll pay for this boat plus the engine repairs. Will you kick yourself if that boat, or another, equally attractive boat comes up? I mean, you could be out playing/learning to sail, but instead your boat will be sitting. On the plus side, if you do get the engine looked over by a qualified mechanic and you're OK with paying whatever he says it will cost to get it back up to snuff (or doing the work yourself to make those repairs), you'll have a 1980 CD with a known-good engine (or about as known-good as you can get), and that peace of mind may be worth it to you, even IF you have to wait a year to really begin to enjoy her.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Your worst case is the engine is shot. A new Beta Marine engine/trans combo will run you about $7K + shipping. 

It's a fair bit of work but not rocket science to pull the old engine and swap in the new, especially if you know someone who's done it before and can help you through the process.

The question is would that $7K blow your budget and can you do the work?

In the boat's favor is the fact that she looks like she had an owner who kept her well. That's VERY important in a boat this age.

A lot of folks here will tell you to go for it (after all we all did), but at the end of the day you have to pay the bills and no matter how well maintained there will be additional expenses with any boat that need to be factored in.

Best of luck whether you decide this is the one or if it will be the boat you haven't found yet.


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

My mechanical skill level: pretty unskilled. Sailing skill level: been sailing dingys for about 5 years. No cruiser experience. (The wind dies, I paddle home or get a tow.) 

I am, however, married to a mechanical engineer. We have a deal - I buy the boat, she takes charge of the basic maintenance, at least until I learn how to do these things as well. (Can she fix a head gasket? I don't know.) 

I have been assuming this is a repair I will have to have professionally done. Actually, given the $4,000 cut in the price (the original price was $16,500) I assume a hefty repair bill is in order.

What worries me is - is a blown head gasket the beginning of this boat's problems or the end? The last buyer walked away after the survey, and I assume he/she was also offered the same cut in the price.

E.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

Did the owner know the head gasket was blown when he accepted the offer from the first buyer? If he did and didn't disclose that I would start to look at the boat with an electron scanning microscope. There may be other issues. The boat does look clean, maybe a bit too clean. Did the blown head gasket allow coolant into the chamber which maybe lead to hydro locking and possibly to a bent rod. Sails in good shape? I'd low ball it by about $5k, he doesn't want two boats.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

emcentar said:


> What worries me is - is a blown head gasket the beginning of this boat's problems or the end? The last buyer walked away after the survey, and I assume he/she was also offered the same cut in the price.
> 
> E.


If you can get a copy of the survey, do so- that will answer a whole load of unknowns.

There are many many boats in the same price range and same LOA range that are ready to go today in your area. Place a wanted ad on craigslist and see what comes out of the woodwork.

All that being said, if it is simply a blown head gasket (evidenced by being hard to start but starting and running, with low compression, no compression, white smoke- if it is hard to start but runs, with black smoke, the problem is rings, valves, or valve seals) It is a relatively simple fix on a volvo diesel- certainly a lot simpler than replacing the head gasket on a DOHC gasoline automotive engine. If you can build Ikea furniture, you can apparently read a manual, so you should be able to fix a head gasket.... and it is a good idea to learn to fix a head gasket.

Replacing a head gasket is certainly cheaper and simpler and less time consuming than installing an outboard mount and outboard and remote controls to the cockpit and a new gas tank, etc., etc...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

bljones said:


> Replacing a head gasket is certainly cheaper and simpler and less time consuming than installing an outboard mount and outboard and remote controls to the cockpit and a new gas tank, etc., etc...


...not to mention what that does to the beautiful lines of that boat.....


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

Captainmeme said:


> Did the owner know the head gasket was blown when he accepted the offer from the first buyer? If he did and didn't disclose that I would start to look at the boat with an electron scanning microscope. There may be other issues. The boat does look clean, maybe a bit too clean. Did the blown head gasket allow coolant into the chamber which maybe lead to hydro locking and possibly to a bent rod. Sails in good shape? I'd low ball it by about $5k, he doesn't want two boats.


Good question. In a separate ad on the Cape Dory message board he says the blown head gasket came up in the survey during the sale. On the other hand, the boat was very reasonably priced, so maybe he did know before the survey. Or maybe he just doesn't want two boats.

If a blown head gasket is easy to fix, why wouldn't the owner fix it instead of cutting the price $4000?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Because many owners don't have the skill, or inclination, or time or interest or don't realize that, as daunting as it is to essentially decapitate an engine, it is not a technically complex job.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

emcentar said:


> Can she fix a head gasket? I don't know.


Well, considering that is a crucial part of the equation, I think you'd better ask her.

Then, plan on getting your own survey before you buy, and be sure to get a qualified mechanic to do an engine survey as well. That way you'll know what you're getting into.

The bottom line here is, once you have the engine fixed (either DIY or by hiring someone else), will it still be a price you can afford? If the answer is no, obviously you walk away.

The one thing you do NOT want to do is buy the boat now, and plan on getting the engine fixed sometime down the road "when you can afford it." What will happen is that the boat sits, doesn't get used much (if at all), yet continues to eat away at your cash reserves as you pay for insurance, dockage or mooring, other maintenance, etc. That's a formula for spending, in the long term, way more than you ever wanted to.

Good luck.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

CD is a blue water boat.. by your stated experience, I'd say don't go for it. You won't be happy and the boat won't be "happy" unless it's on the ocean. On the Bay, it would be a slug.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

And since no one else said it, if this helps, this is a pretty poodr choice for the Chesapeake.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Check that spares are available. The head or block could be cracked. Assuming the engine is original then it is 33 years old and spares may well be in short supply or out of stock totally.

Also my spidy sense tells me that it is not going to be just a head gasket. They are about $30 and it takes 1 - 2 hours to replace assuming nothing else is wrong. A $4k drop for a head gasket.

Hmm plenty boats with running engines out there.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

It is a 
Volvo
engine.

Unless you like being frustrated and paying exorbitant amounts for engine parts don't do it. I'd sooner take a cd 30' with an Atomic 4 gas engine than an old Volvo diesel.

cd 30' is a nice looking boat but the draft is a tad on the deep side for some parts of the Chessy.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Jeff_H said:


> And since no one else said it, if this helps, this is a pretty poodr choice for the Chesapeake.


.. actually, I think Denise beat you to it!!!


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

I do like the Cape Dory classic lines, would any of the smaller ones be better suited to the Chesapeake? I'm shopping in the 26'-30' range.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

If the gang has successfully talked you out of the boat, why don't you tell us more about yourself and where you plan on sailing?

BTW, there are a LOT of Annapolis-area members here, and I'm sure some would come along to look at a few boats. If you wind up in Philly or the NJ shore, let me know, I'd consider coming along. Going boat shopping is kind of like going to an open house.


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

Faster said:


> .. actually, I think Denise beat you to it!!!


And I was wondering why it took so long....I know it's not a perfect match, but I have a thing for pretty classic boats. Given how much $$$ I'll be throwing at it, it does help if it's pretty. I admit, I'll probably have ample time to reconsider my priorities while sitting on the Chessy in light air.

What's pretty, good in light air, and can be purchased for <$20,000?

E.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

emcentar said:


> I do like the Cape Dory classic lines, would any of the smaller ones be better suited to the Chesapeake? I'm shopping in the 26'-30' range.


I like classic lines too, but that doesn't mean that boats with classic lines are necessarily the best boats for my uses.

Think about how you'll use it and pick boats that excel in those conditions, not in how they look.

In my case I care about sailing performance in light winds and do coastal sailing -- scenarios that a full keel boat doesn't do well in. I think my Pearson 28-2 is a little ugly (it's got a huge freeboard and is beamy), but the combination of interior layout and sailing performance make it one of the better choices for me.

If budget is a concern I'd also recommend looking at boats that are a little bit smaller. A 25-27' boat (often with an outboard) will have sails that are half as much as a 30' boat, a motor that is 1/4 as much (if it is an outboard), simpler systems, and be much less money to maintain. Moorage will be about $100 cheaper per month (at least here in Seattle). They are still good sizes for coastal cruising with a couple.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

emcentar said:


> And I was wondering why it took so long....I know it's not a perfect match, but I have a thing for pretty classic boats. Given how much $$$ I'll be throwing at it, it does help if it's pretty. I admit, I'll probably have ample time to reconsider my priorities while sitting on the Chessy in light air.
> 
> What's pretty, good in light air, and can be purchased for <$20,000?
> 
> Erika


There are a lot of good boats out there in that price range. My default answer is the Tartan 30.

Jeff


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

jimgo said:


> If the gang has successfully talked you out of the boat, why don't you tell us more about yourself and where you plan on sailing?
> 
> BTW, there are a LOT of Annapolis-area members here, and I'm sure some would come along to look at a few boats. If you wind up in Philly or the NJ shore, let me know, I'd consider coming along. Going boat shopping is kind of like going to an open house.


Yes, you guys have definitely talked me out of this boat. But I was hoping you would - I could sense all that shiny teak was clouding my judgement.

I'm Washington, DC-based and have been sailing dingys (Flying Scots) on the Potomac for about 5 years. That may overstate my experience somewhat as I don't get out that many times in a year, but I could probably challenge an ASA101 course. Just enough experience to know how little I have. But I'm bored with river sailing within towing distance of my little marina and would like to move up to sailing a small cruiser on the Chessy. I don't want to race, I'm not looking to cross oceans - I just want to get out of the city and onto the water with my dog and my wife and a picnic cooler and maybe spend the night outside with a beer in my hand.

I've saved about $15,000, hopefully enough for a little starter boat and a slip for the season. The timing is terrible - both the wife and I are at risk for furloughs. But I just turned 40 and found out that I'm likely to spend my old age in a wheelchair (inheritable illness). I'd like to not wait much longer to get out there, since there's no guarantee I'll be able to have my retirement dream of sailing around on my boat.

E.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Tartan 27'.
Shoal draft 3'6" with centerboard up, 6' w/C/B down. You would be able to get into many gunkholes with this boat.
Classic lines, decent sailor.
Smallish cabin but big enough for two.
You won't likely find one with a Volvo engine in it. 
You also won't have to spend that much up front.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

I spent a month on a 25 ft Hunter down in Florida doing the ICW and Keys. The wife and 
I have spent many 3 day weekends on her as well. So you don't need a 30 footer. The biggest drawback of the 25 ft Hunter was no place to store a dink and a tad too much draft to wad comfortably to shore. If I was sailing the same area, the same way, I'd be looking at a swing keel/centerboard boat so I could beach her and step ashore dry.


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

The Tartan 27 is beautiful, I admit, but there don't seem to be that many of them around. The very few I've seen are from the early to mid 1960s production runs.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

There are not that many T27's listed right now. You could join my Tartan 27 yahoo group (T27Owners) as people have listed their boats there. There is one on Martha's Vineyard and a few more will be up for sale soon.
I know of a "free" T27 hull in Mamaroneck, NY. No mast, diesel engine. Located mast in Fairhaven, MA.
There are a bunch of T30's listed though. The T30 has a more spacious cabin, is a stiff sailor but the draft is about 5' which wouldn't be much better than the cd 30' you were interested in. The T30 does not quite have that classic look though.


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

Beautiful and local (I don't want delivery to eat too much into my budget) but I'm a little nervous about the 1964 part, particularly if lightly used over the last 12 years.

Tartan 27 sailboat

I'll add the Tartan 27 to my list, though.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

emcentar said:


> I don't want to race, I'm not looking to cross oceans - I just want to get out of the city and onto the water with my dog and my wife and a picnic cooler and maybe spend the night outside with a beer in my hand.


You can do this very comfortably on a 25' boat. You can find nice examples for well under $10k and have a lot left in the budget. You'll want that anyway to cover unexpected maintenance (the first year with any new boat is expensive) and upgrades.

I cruised for 12 days on my Catalina 25 last summer and had a great time. The trip did get me thinking about an upgrade, but what really pushed the upgrade is a once a decade option (for me) to spend most of the summer sailing. My trip report from sailing the Catalina 25 is here:
Alex Wetmore is always busy with something&#8230; » Blog Archive » Sailing to the San Juans

Having owned a 25'/outboard boat and now owning a 29'/inboard boat I can say that the smaller boat is quite a bit cheaper and easier to maintain. Everything is simpler. It took me to the same destinations. Keep it simple.

Boat availability and what works well is quite different from the Chesapeake and Puget Sound, so I won't make specific boat suggestions. The Catalina 25 with a tall mast is an inexpensive option that worked well for me.

There are 27' boats that would be a good compromise between simplicity and space. Popular examples out here would be the Catalina 27, Cal 2-27, Pearson Triton, Albin Vega, Islander 28.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

emcentar said:


> I don't want to race, I'm not looking to cross oceans - I just want to get out of the city and onto the water with my dog and my wife and a picnic cooler and maybe spend the night outside with a beer in my hand.
> 
> I've saved about $15,000, hopefully enough for a little starter boat and a slip for the season.
> 
> E.


Take a look at the Catalina 27. Here's the listing from YachtWorld for the Chesapeake area. It has boats from $4k to $15K with the range of conditions that would suggest. These boats are designed to be used exactly as you described.

Here's the best part. If you really like cruising the bay you can sell the boat in two years for exactly what you paid for it and move up. This will also have more room aboard for family and fido.

The best thing to do is go and look at some boats. That will give you a feel for the differences. Also let people know you're looking. A lot of the boats in this price range aren't listed on YachtWorld. Pick up the Salty Dog, check Craig's List and ask around in marinas. These boats are out there.

And there's no need to settle for something that needs a ton of work. Find a boat that someone loved. It will be much easier on both you and your wallet.

Oh, and don't discount day sailors like the Catalina 22 with a pop-top. They're like little pop-top campers and a lot of fun to sail. Overnighting in them is like camping in a pop-top trailer. And again in two years you can sell it for what you paid - and REALLY nice ones can be had for $5-$6K.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Here's what I mean. We paid $6K for this Catalina 22 in 2006, sailed her for two years and made a few small improvements. Sold her for $7k in '08.

With the boat market down you could probably find something similar for $5K-$5,500 today.










Just be prepared that you'll see a lot of neglected boats in this price range before you find your perfect boat.

Best of luck,
Jim


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Looks, schmooks. 

You can't see how your boat looks when you are aboard her, and when you aren't aboard her you don't care how she looks because you just wish you were aboard.

Of course, I say this as the owner of an ugly boat.

emcentar, I understand your concerns regarding this maybe not being the right time to buy a boat, what with the risk of furloughs, etc...

But, you know in your heart- there is never a right time, and there are plenty of reasons available each and every day if you want a reason not to do it...

.... and you will find a reason why it IS the right time to pull the trigger on a boat purchase, if you want to bad enough.

You're here now for a reason, and that reason isn't for advice on how to avoid buying a boat for several more years.

After all, this ain't DON'TSailnet.


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

Here's an idea...upper end of your price range but most Owners are willing to negotiate. These old Irwins are good sailors and have good draft for the Chesapeake. Not quite as pretty as the CD but, in my opinion, more attractive than the Catalinas or Hunters (not that those are bad boats - just a different aesthetic).

A boat this size would be a good day sailor and also give you a tremendous amount of flexibility in expanding your horizons later if you want to.

(I have no connection to or commerical interest in this boat).

1968 Irwin 31 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## AirborneSF (Dec 14, 2010)

Did anyone pull the oil dip stick and look to see if the oil is 'milky' with water? Anyone turn it over, for any 'noise', just like your car eng? A head gasket is not a deal breaker for me, if the oil isn't 'new', and no water in crankcase. I agree, a H-G can be replaced in about 4hrs, compression checked, fuel bled, and oil changed, charged Batt's and go. CD? Can you get a copy of the last insp? Or get your own insp done? My, 02 (which ain't worth 2 cents).


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Andy, the OP said they weren't really handy, that's why I suggested something like the C27. 20-30 years newer than the Irwin, there are lots of them out there, lots of information on them on the web, the factory still supplies all the original parts, there's an active owners group and third party vendors that specialize in these boats. 

Taken together that smooths the path for a new sailor and makes life a little easier.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

I was looking for boats in your area up until about 2 months ago. There was a very nice Pearson 27 for sale at Ferry Point Marina near Pasadena, MD. Well maintained, and everything looked great. The seller wanted $7000. I don't know if it's still available, but she's worth a look. The seller was a really nice guy, in the military, and headed overseas. The boat had been his uncles, but he realized that with his deployments, he just couldn't justify the expense. 

I had a fairly specific list of things I wanted in my boat this time around (e.g. cockpit seating for 6), and the Pearson just didn't quite make it for me, but she was tempting. If you are interested, you can PM me and I'll dig up his contact info. I have no relationship with the seller, but just liked him and understood the situation he was in.

Other than the Pearson, I would generally agree with Jim McGee's advice; Catalina's a great boats for a beginner. We had a 1984 C25, bought it for $1000 including the outboard. We probably sunk another $3-4K into it (bought a new outboard), but that would still put you well under your budget. As Jim said, the beauty of Catalinas is that they have a very broad network of aftermarket goods. You can find a TON of equipment for them, and replacement parts are plentiful. Had I been able to find one in my price range, I would have been VERY tempted to go with a C30 this time, in part because of the positive experience I had with the C25.

Another to consider is the Islander 28, if you can find one. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say anything negative about those boats, except due to neglect by previous owners. As to that Tartan 27 you linked to, she looks nice in the pictures. And a 15 year old boat may be more of a handful than a well cared-for, or recently renovated, 30-40 year old boat, depending on what the owner of the younger boat did to it (or didn't do to it).

As Alex rightly said, as the boat gets bigger, so does the cost of maintenance and ownership. A 25-28' is a great option, and a good way to "test the waters" to see if you enjoy boat ownership.

Another thing to consider is where you'll keep her. There is a guy on the C25 owner's site who keeps his boat near the 14th street bridge. GREAT location. I wish I had given that more consideration when I lived down there - I really missed getting out on the water. Ocaquan (sp?) and Solomons are also interesting options, depending on whether you live in the District, MD, or VA.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

My advice is to check the D.C., Annapolis, and Baltimore Craigslist (that's three separate pages) about as often as you check your email. Every couple weeks a boat comes up that would suit your needs. If you jump on it you can check it out before or after work that same day, and make an offer subject to survey before anyone else gets to it. I'll bet you could find something good for you at $6-8k, and put the rest of your budget in a slip/maintenance/furlough fund.

I'm also in the D.C. area, and I bought my first boat last year. It's a Cal 2-27 that has been perfect for our needs (family of four doing lots of weekend sailing and an occasional overnighter.) Right around the 27-foot range is where you start to see a decent amount of room below, and a real head with a door, if that is important to you.


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## captain conrad (May 18, 2006)

If you love the boat buy it! Get fixed and sail it.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I'll put in another word for the Pearson 28-2. It was on my short list for a coastal cruising liveaboard.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

In addition to Craigslist, check out sailboatlistings.com, SailingTexas.com, and Yachtworld. You might also find some luck with BoatsFSBO, but I found that difficult to use.

For basic info on the boats that you find, check out sailboatdata.com. SailingTexas's site also has great archived pictures of various models, so you can get a sense of what they look like before you head out (it's amazing how many sale ads don't include pictures!!!).


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

JimMcGee said:


> Andy, the OP said they weren't really handy, that's why I suggested something like the C27. 20-30 years newer than the Irwin, there are lots of them out there, lots of information on them on the web, the factory still supplies all the original parts, there's an active owners group and third party vendors that specialize in these boats.
> 
> Taken together that smooths the path for a new sailor and makes life a little easier.


Good points Jim. For a new sailor limiting the number of issues that need fixing before he can enjoy sailing is a plus. I was thinking more about the OPs affection for the looks of the CD......some times older boats when well kept or recently refit can be as trouble free as newer ones with less care and attention.

Emcentar - your situation is similar to mine about 10 years ago. I hadn't sailed in 20 or more years, but found myself living in Key Largo and jonesing to get out on the water again. I ended up with a 25' fixer upper and enjoyed putzing around on it, but it didn't take long before the costs of fixing broken stuff and adding amenities that were missing put me at the point where I could have bought a turnkey boat the same size or bigger and spent more time actually sailing. If I were you I'd focus on getting a boat in as good shape as you can find.

I wish I had known about Sailnet and the great advice you can get here back then!


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

Thanks everyone for all the advice! 

One more question - the most frequent advice I hear for first-time buyers to find a used boat in as nice as condition as you can in your price range. But what's a good strategy for locating these boats? I'm looking at all the online listings, but it can be tough to tell anything from the picture other than how clean they kept their boat. And there's a lot of boats that look like they have sat on the hard for a while - bad sign? What are the good signs to help me winnow down to the boats worth spending my Saturday out checking them out?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

First it's ALWAYS worth spending a Saturday checking out boats... 

Online hunting is a good start, but be aware that there's no way to know when those pics were taken, so even that's just a starting point.

Local CL listings seem to be more the norm for small to midsized boats, with the advantage that they are usually not too far away to look at.

Look for something clean, no immediate nasty 'smell' when you step below (but most older boats have some residual odor - mold and rot smells are indicators of problems. Fuel smells can usually be tracked down but could indicate a weeping tank.. not good.

Clean bilges and cubbies are indicative of good care - a clean engine area the same.

Generally I think you'll get a 'good' feeling when it's close to being right.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

One challenge with classified ads is that if you can see the ad, so can hundreds and thousands of other potential buyers.

The best way to gain control of the boat hunt is to be proactive instead of reactive: Place a "wanted " ad on craiglist with your needs and wants. Something like, "Wanted: Older 24-32' sailboat. Prefer wheel steering, diesel inboard, dinette layout, bimini, dodger, shoal draft. Cape Dory, Alberg, Pearson, Cherubini Hunter or similar. No fixer-uppers please. What have you got?" Do not include a price range.

You will get responses from people who hadn't thought of selling their boat, listings that had expired, and owners who hadn't listed their boats for sale yet. By being the shot-caller, you have more control over the price- they haven't set one yet, so the ball is in your court.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Faster said:


> First it's ALWAYS worth spending a Saturday checking out boats...
> 
> Look for something clean, no immediate nasty 'smell' when you step below ...
> 
> Clean bilges and cubbies are indicative of good care - a clean engine area the same.


Spot on.

Don't be afraid of a boat PROPERLY STORED AND MAINTAINED on the hard. owners, die, move away, or run out of money, or take up golf- circumstances change quickly, but it takes a while to sell a boat. as long as the boat doesn't have a foot of standing water down below because nobody bothered to check the hatches and drains regularly, a boat on the hard can be a bargain.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

The approach I took, and it may not work for everyone, was to start off by looking at the boats that come up frequently on Craigslist. For me in my price range, those were Hunters, Catalinas, Pearsons, Ericsons, and Irwins. Not that I excluded ANY boat, but as a threshold issue, I learned more about those. I went to SailboatData.com and learned about the beam and the draft. I went to SailingTexas.com and got a feel for what the cockpit and cabins looked like. Then I tried to envision myself and my family using that boat. For example, some boats have a galley that runs the length of the starboard side and a dinette on the port side, with no other seating in the "lounge" area. I knew that wouldn't work for us, because we frequently sail with more than just us, and if it rains, we wouldn't all be able to hide in the cabin. I also looked at the cockpits and tried to envision my family and friends there. Where would kids sit? Are there moving parts (e.g., traveler) that might hit them or pinch fingers? How safe will they be if they stand on the seat to get a better view? I also decided that I wanted a wheel for steering; others love tillers (and I understand why), but for my purposes a wheel was very important. I also knew I wanted a roller furler for the headsail. Issues like those allowed me to rule out some boats, and to push others higher on my list.

Once I had a good feel for the boats that I'd likely run into, I started looking more earnestly at Craigslist and Yachtworld. My budget was a lot lower than yours, so I didn't really focus on YW too much - brokers add to the seller's cost, and I was looking for value-priced boats. Incidentally, I DID wind up buying a boat that was listed on YW, but it was more by accident. Anyway, the next thing I would do is to start examining all of the pictures that were in the Craigslist ad. If I saw stained woodwork near where the chainplates attached, the boat was typically ruled out (unless I suspected that the damage wasn't that bad due to other pictures). If I saw lots of places where the hull had been repaired, the boat was ruled out. If the boat seemed to have been poorly maintained, it was ruled out. If there was a clear line at the keel/hull joint, and especially if there were other signs of trauma in that area, the boat was ruled out. By contrast, small stains on the woodwork under windows didn't really bother me - that means the window needs to be rebedded, and I could handle that (I typically checked to see if the core in that area was rotted when aboard).

Another important thing to learn is that there are a lot of really bad salespeople out there, and they have NO CLUE how to put up a Craigslist ad. They'll have a BEAUTIFUL Pearson 323 in immaculate condition, and the subject line for the ad will be "Pearson 323" and inside the ad will say something like "1980 Pearson Sloop, desal (sic). Looks great, runs great. $8K. Calls only." And that's the entirety of the ad. You want to learn how to use Craigslist's search feature to find those ads, because most people are searching for "sailboat" or "sail boat" (which will return different results if you're on CL), and will never see the Pearson ad, which is actually good for you, because the seller will likely be frustrated that he hasn't gotten any calls. So, when you find that ad and call him, he'll be ready to make a deal. 

Once you decide to go look at a boat, Faster's comments above are spot-on. Granted, someone can clean up a boat and give you the impression that it's well maintained, but from what I've seen, most of the sellers who are too lazy to maintain the boat are also too lazy to clean it up when it comes time to sell. There are a few self-inspection guides online that give you a good list of the things to look for during your walk-through. Don't be afraid to push buttons, turn stuff on/off, flush the head, hoist the sails, etc. If the seller is honest, he/she won't mind at all. I'd plan on being there at least an hour, and probably more like two in that initial visit. Also, take LOTS of pictures, even of stuff you don't think you'll want pictures of, and from strange angles. Take pictures of the mast, and the boom, and both together. Take pictures of the cabin from the companionway, and from the V-berth, the head (get the brand of head in the picture if you can), the engine and engine compartment (if it's an inboard, or the engine bracket and how it is attached, inside the cabin, if it's an outboard), and both sides of the chainplates. Take pictures of the floor, and the cabin ceiling. The cockpit, the transom, the sides, the mast step, the anchor area, etc. Get a shot of the Hull Identification Number and/or occupancy plate. Of all things be SURE to get pictures of ALL of the BAD things you see, and from six different angles.

Once you think you've found an interesting boat, load the pictures of that boat into a Photobucket account (or any other file sharing site) and post the link here. There are a LOT of good people here who can help scrutinize the pics and give you feedback. And, as I said before, if you want someone to go with you on a few look/sees, ask. As Faster said, for some people, visiting sailboats is a wonderful way to spend a Saturday!


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Look at as many boats as possible. If you find boats one boat on Craigslist that is interesting then find all of the other ones in the same marina (especially if it is far away) that are for sale and see if any meet your parameters. Set up appointments with sellers to look a multiple boats back to back. Once in a marina, especially if it has locked gates, walk the docks and look for other boats for sale. Talk to friendly owners and ask what they like and dislike about their boats, especially if their boats are in your target size range.

When we bought the Catalina 25 we were looking at 3 or 4 boats at a time. When I bought my Pearson 28-2 my parameters were tighter but I still made days where we could look at many boats on the same day. The day that we first looked at the 28-2 we also looked at an Islander 30, Freedom 28, and one or two others. All of those were about a 2 hour drive from our house, so I made as many appointments as possible.

The Don Casey book on inspecting the aging sailboat is a useful reference for what to look for when first looking at a boat. Once you find what you think is the right boat I do think it is worth paying for a survey. However on a simpler boat (like my Catalina 25) it is pretty easy to self survey if you can do so with an open mind. The best reasons for a mechanically inclined person to pay for a survey is that it often helps with negotiation and it gets you an impartial opinion.

It's rare for boats to be on the hard here (Seattle) since people keep them in the water all year. So I can't comment on that question.

Dirty isn't a big deal if the essentials are good. I'd place more importance on the condition and quality of consumable items like sails, rigging (standing and running), canvas, the engine, batteries. Replacing all of those items with new ones will cost $10k on a 25' boat.

A dirty boat with good condition equipment is easier to get going than a clean boat that needs new sails, has a 30 year old outboard, and needs all new standing rigging. However it's more common to find the clean both with good equipment or the dirty boat with old equipment.

It's worth spending more money to get a boat that has been recently loved. I bought my Catalina 25 for $4000 but sold it for about double that. However the buyer (who is a friend) got a better deal on that boat than I did since I had done about $8000 worth of work to it (new cushions, sails, running rigging, lighting, electrical -- it all adds up). He offered more, but I sold it to him for what I thought I could get for it on CL. When I bought my Pearson (at about 5x the cost) I made a high priority of looking for a boat with good sails, cushions, engine. I've still spent about $5000 on it replacing hardware, adding an autopilot, upgrading electronics, and doing bottom work. I knew that I'd spend this upfront and when considering boats I weighed what each of them would cost me in first year work. The Pearson that needed an autopilot and bottom paint was a much better deal than the Islander 30 that needed a new engine, bottom paint, and sails...even though the asking price on the Islander was $5000 cheaper.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

One question about the head gasket issue. Is changing a head gasket on a diesel inherently any more difficult than the same job on a gas engine? I've done the latter a couple of times, and I fully realize that a blown head gasket make simply be a symptom of a much more serious problem, but I was wondering how big a job changing the head gasket itself would be on a diesel. Who knows, my Yanmar may need such "surgery" in the future.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Lotta boats out there. Get one that doesn't need a new head gasket.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

I'm curious, though. Did your wife ever say if she can replace the gasket?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

SlowButSteady said:


> One question about the head gasket issue. Is changing a head gasket on a diesel inherently any more difficult than the same job on a gas engine? I've done the latter a couple of times, and I fully realize that a blown head gasket make simply be a symptom of a much more serious problem, but I was wondering how big a job changing the head gasket itself would be on a diesel. Who knows, my Yanmar may need such "surgery" in the future.


 Compared to an automotive engine, it is much simpler. the intake and exhaust manifolds are simpler, there are no emission controls, no accessories mounted in the way (with the exception of the alternator,) no timing belt or chain to remove, so no cam timing issues upon reassembly, the head can be disassembled on the bench, rather than having to unplug the injectors and remove them in situ.

I have not torn the head off any car newer than 1988, but I have wrestled with everything from E-type engines to old Bentley lumps to Daimler's gorgeous little 2.5 litre hemi v-8 to more VW and Porsche aircooled engines than i can count. Based on that experience, dealing with rusted and busted old fasteners, I figured i would need 12 hours to R and R the head of my yanmar GM10, including new valves, new head gasket, new exhaust gasket, rebuilt injector. I had the head off and out in less than 1 hour, 2 hours on the bench, 2 hours to get it back together, requiring a total of two screwdrivers and 3 wrenches. Up until that point, I liked that little diesel. after that job, I loved the simplicity- diesel engines have only enough parts required to make it run, and they don't need much to run.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

bljones said:


> Compared to an automotive engine, it is much simpler. the intake and exhaust manifolds are simpler, there are no emission controls, no accessories mounted in the way (with the exception of the alternator,) no timing belt or chain to remove, so no cam timing issues upon reassembly, the head can be disassembled on the bench, rather than having to unplug the injectors and remove them in situ.
> 
> I have not torn the head off any car newer than 1988, but I have wrestled with everything from E-type engines to old Bentley lumps to Daimler's gorgeous little 2.5 litre hemi v-8 to more VW and Porsche aircooled engines than i can count. Based on that experience, dealing with rusted and busted old fasteners, I figured i would need 12 hours to R and R the head of my yanmar GM10, including new valves, new head gasket, new exhaust gasket, rebuilt injector. I had the head off and out in less than 1 hour, 2 hours on the bench, 2 hours to get it back together, requiring a total of two screwdrivers and 3 wrenches. Up until that point, I liked that little diesel. after that job, I loved the simplicity- diesel engines have only enough parts required to make it run, and they don't need much to run.


Thanks. That's kind of what I thought, just by eyeballing it and skimming my shop manual. It's probably a slightly bigger job on my 2gm20, but not much bigger. Of course, the odds of finding something else wrong as soon as the head is off are......well.....let's not think about that.


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

Siamese said:


> I'm curious, though. Did your wife ever say if she can replace the gasket?


Yes, she can, and she has, as it turns out. She had an old Mercedes when we met that blew quite a few parts before it had to be retired to the old dealer in the sky.

Yeah, she's awesome.


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## KarlP (Jul 19, 2012)

In June of last year I took at look at a Greenwich 24 that was local to me. The boat was disaster and the trailer had deformed the hull. I decided I liked the hull, needed a little more headroom down below, and wanted a launching trailer. In July I started looking for a Cape Dory 25 and a Triad trailer. I priced a new Triad Trailer and came to about $6250 + tax. I found a used 2006 Triad equipped exactly as I had quoted with about 250 unloaded miles on it and no submersions. It was 450 miles away, $4,650 (25% off new for 250 unloaded miles), and included a free 1978 CD25.


The guy I bought it from had bought it accidentally on ebay in 2009. He threw in a lowball bid and went away for the weekend where he bought a CD30. He returned home to find he had been high bidder on a CD25 on the Triad trailer. Every spring for at least FOUR years the guy scrubbed it, did some minor cosmetic improvements (compounding hull, new bottom paint, cetol on the toe rail, etc) and placed a few for sale ads with a lower price each May. He seemed to take reasonably good care of the boat that was stored in a rundown boatyard hundreds of miles from his home. He wouldn't negotiate on the price at all, but I found him pretty honest and straight forward to deal with. I paid him in cash and found out he used it as the down payment on a CD36 that was listed on craigslist in the area the next day. He put his CD30 up for sale the next week. Since that was only 8 months ago and he is used to maintaining a 2nd CD he isn't using I figured I had a few years of sailing the CD25 before I decide to upgrade and buy that CD30. 

IME, Dr. Bob is an impulse buyer and SLOW seller. He seemed to take reasonable care of his stuff while biding his time. Hope this helps.


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

I wanted to buy a boat that I knew had a problem like that so I could get it cheaper but I can fix about anything, But because the 1st mate said she wanted to be in Florida that winter so no project boats I just snicker'd and found our E-32.

As said their might be more problems then just the head gasket so figure on worst condition, this case engine replacement and then the list of other things that need attention. I would never tell anyone not to buy the boat they want but just to make sure its what you want.


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

I thought I would update this thread with some good news - I found my boat!

Meet my new Pearson 28-2. Many thanks to Jimgo, who put me in touch with the previous owner just as she was going onto the market, and to everyone here at Sailnet who provided such excellent advice.










We'll be sailing out of Deale, MD - so looking forward to my first season with my own boat!

E.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Wow she looks great!


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

So, how do I get a ride? 

Glad I could help SOMEONE here! I've gotten a lot of good advice, so it's nice to pay back.


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

jimgo said:


> So, how do I get a ride?
> 
> Glad I could help SOMEONE here! I've gotten a lot of good advice, so it's nice to pay back.


I definitely owe you a sail, so just let me know when you're down this way. (Might want to wait until I completely master that the wheel turns in the opposite direction of a tiller, but hopefully that won't be long)


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Congrats! Sure is big departure from a Cape Dory. You will be happier on the Chessy with the P28. Oh the wheel turns right, right left left, (starboard and port) The tiller is the one that's left right, right left to turn. (think I know what I said) lol


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Looks like a sweet ride emcentar.


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