# Can I learn to sail on my own?



## sailing11 (Mar 14, 2018)

Any thoughts on this? I dont want to take lessons


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Yes.

When I was 12 my Dad bought a boat and instead of allowing us kids on board he went and learned to sail by himself, no kids, no instructor.

With a book about sailing on his knee the first day he took the boat out motoring; next day main only; when he was comfortable with that, with the genoa as well.

Some people far prefer to learn themselves. The more methodical with the book on their knee, the idiots with out a book and lots of hope...


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I think it's conceptually possible. I believe in the short learn to sail course there was a booklet which accompanied the in water instruction. The illustrated booklet basically explained and showed in graphics everything the instructor did with us when we were taken out to sail. I believe the on water instruction really made the students understand what was in the booklet... which they were supposed to have read before going out in the boat. It had everything from basic rules of the road, weather, knots, points of sail, tacking and gybing, sail handling/trim etc.

If you can find one of these basic learn to sail course booklets you light be able to teach yourself. I would go out in light winds less than 10 knots to start. Hopefully you have a motor and can practice maneuvering the boat under power first.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I think so. Some boats are easier/more forgiving than others. Some are so simple they practically sail themselves, they pretty much just need some one to point them in the right direction. Others are more complex and will require more practice.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

sailing11 said:


> Any thoughts on this? I dont want to take lessons


You bet!! ..brought this subject months ago..the money saved from not taking these sailing schools can be a nice down payment or out right purchase of a small sailboat to which one can learn on with an experienced buddy.. That's how I learned...


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

Yes.....I bought Sailing for Dummies. I wouldn’t learn on a 42 foot boat though. I learned on a 13” Chrysler Pirateer.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

sailing11 said:


> Any thoughts on this? I dont want to take lessons


The answer is a qualified "Yes."

- Watch some quality Youtube educational videos (not sailing travel vlogs.)
- Read books.
- When you venture out to put this information into action, choose a small boat that is easy to handle such as a sailing dinghy or Catalina 22 or similar vessel.
- Practice, practice, practice.

Finally, make friends with other sailors and sail with some of them. The problem with teaching yourself, is that you'll hit a wall where you stop improving. You'll also pick up bad habits and continue them.

You don't need paid lessons but eventually you will require some external input if you want to sail well. Otherwise, your learning curve will be shallow, slow, and more painful than it needs to be and you will most likely only reach a level of mediocrity of seamanship.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Buy a book from an accredited source (not just a Bubba Leans to Sail blog) or take a basic point of sale lesson at your closest Community Sailing Center for around $150 which includes the book on sailing.

You really don't have to take a mega bucks yacht club course to get off to a good start.

Here are the rates at the local (non-profit) Community Sailing Center:

Intro to Sailing
$100/group
A one hour cruise with an instructor showing you the ropes of sailing. Available to groups of 4 or smaller.

Adult Learn to Sail
$150 for non members $100 for members
A two day course offered Saturday morning from 9:30-1:30 continuing Sunday morning at the same hour. It is offered two weekends a month. Package also includes the Learn Sailing Right book. Call ahead to reserve your spot!

Private Sailing Lessons
$75/hr for 1 person $35/ hr for additional participants 
Scheduled at your convenience & on your choice of boat. Most individuals need 2-3 hours of instruction to feel confident sailing on their own.​
The benefit of the sailing center is that you will be making the newbie mistakes on someone else's boat and there will be safety and tow back service on the alert to jump in when needed.

Many times the ask we get is from sailors who have not been out on their own for a few years and just want a buddy on board for 10 or 15 minutes while they get back into the swing of things.

Many Sailing Centers will not charge for a few minutes of refresher time with one of their coaches or even the director with the hopes you'll become a member. The added plus at a Sailing Center is the sailing staff has to pass regular qualifications testing to ensure they don't pass on bad habits while some person you pick up at the dock or beach, brother-in-law, etc likely has not passed any sort of coaching review.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Surprisingly among the crew I’ve had through the years the ASA or other school grads have been nearly universally the worse and the self taught the best. So would answer in a strong affirmative.
The rule “watch one, do one, teach one “ applies if you want to really know how to do an evolution on a boat or anything else.
Most get a cheap beat up trailer boat or dinghy. Go out and play. The physics of sailing becomes immediately apparent. It’s not rocket science. Move up to phrf racing or class racing as crew. Then decide if you’re a racer or cruiser. Sure read the books and watch the YouTubes videos as you go along but experience is the best teacher. It’s a rare sailor who doesn’t get a kick out of teaching. There are 10 ways to do anything on a boat and 9 are wrong. By sailing with others you get to see the various ways and choose. Then decide on your first “real” boat. 
One of the fascinations of sailing, racing or cruising is there’s always more to learn and you can always do it better. 
The only schooling I’ve ever done was for a ticket,diesel wrenching, safety at sea and weather. Watched my wife do schooling and she got nothing out of it.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Different people learn in different ways. If you don't want to take lessons then don't. There is no doubt that some people can learn the fundamentals of sailing without formal instruction.


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## Northeric (May 1, 2014)

Definitely, I'm pretty much self taught, and it shows, lol. Read a lot of books and watch the videos. I would not try to learn on anything bigger than a daysailor otherwise you could be putting others in danger. I did take and recommend the Power Squadron classroom courses in basic safety and navigation. You can take them in the off season.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

I did about 50 years ago on a lake in a sunfish.

Start small, Laser, Sunfish, even better something like a 420 with a jib and more strings to pull. Don't get a nice one, get a used one and if/when you bang it up, so what. 

I still love sailing those small boats 50 years later. Do it while your young and you can still stand on the center board and right it after you go over. These little boats will talk to you, every string you pull results in something relatively dramatic happening right away. IMHO there is no better way to learn sailing.

Which is different from cruising, seamanship, boat maintenance, navigation....etc. You can learn that stuff later.

Learn to sail first, you'll never regret it.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Sailing sure ain't rocket science. If you get in a small boat, say under 15 feet that is capsizable (that means can tip over w/o it being a permanent condition), one can't help but learn to sail. Period.
That said, there is a whole language of sailing, and things like anchoring and tying to docks are better learned not through experience, but from a bit of reading.
I highly recommend Royce's Sailing Illustrated as a basic primer. It covers just about everything one needs to know to safely handle a small craft in a fun, yet comprehensive format. From anchoring to boat nomenclature and even splicing, it's got most of what you'll need for getting started, yet is still a good reference book for the most experienced of us. No preachy tome here.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I was told how to do a few things on a Hobbie Cat by the sailing camp counselor and went off on my own. Next summer I was sailing instructor. It is easily done but a lot depends on your learning style.

I would suggest a book or a number of books, to make sure you are learning correctly. There is a concept called Primacy of Learning. If you learn to do things wrong at first it is hard to unlearn. Also the correct terminology is very important if you sail with someone else or ever want to rent a boat.

Another option depending on where you live is join a sailing club. Unless you plan on buying your own boat you might need to anyways. Most clubs have a package deal that includes an ASA 101 class, which will start you off on the right foot.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

capta said:


> .I highly recommend Royce's Sailing Illustrated as a basic primer. It covers just about everything one needs to know to safely handle a small craft in a fun, yet comprehensive format.


How did I know this recommendation was coming. I learned using Royce's also, that was 30 years ago and the book was ancient then. It is still a valuable resource, i bought a copy for my wife to learn. She likes the bigger books with glossy pictures though.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

sailing11 said:


> Any thoughts on this? I dont want to take lessons


I'd suggest you consider what would be a wise answer to "Can I learn to drive on my own? ".

Sure you can, the mechanics are not so difficult and it seems fairly simple and safe to all who are experienced drivers. So just go for it?

Any thoughtful answer needs to recognize that driving includes some level of personal risk to your well being, to yourself and your passengers, and that learning by doing would greatly increase that risk. The same is true of sailing.

Now the state will require you to pass a test of driving skills to legally drive, but any fool can cast off in a sailboat, taking the well being of his loved ones into his ignorant hands. Just because you can do so, does not mean that is not a fundamentally stupid and risky thing to do.


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## thelibrarian (May 3, 2018)

I've taken one lesson and going for another soon hopefully. While it certainly can be done on your own. It is a nice safety blanket. While it's not terribly difficult I did have the feeling i would be at a little bit of a loss if i were out there by myself (maybe because i did have someone to rely on) and you are a decent ways from land should you do something foolish like hit a sandbar or something if you don't know the local waters or what to do in situations. You could have to deal with traffic and right of way which is based on windward and stuff that is not straight forward. You'll eventually have to learn on your own either way. Going with people who know what they're doing or having background in boat culture is nice. It's worthwhile to take some lessons and boating is not cheap so $100 shouldn't be a big deal. pointing out things like you know you're across irons when your main sail switches over and fills up seems obvious but I'd be making large sharp turns worried about getting across and I'm sure i could have continued doing that and i don't recall seeing that in the book. I'm sure you remember more when you have to do it on your own and get it right enough on things like rigging the sails and putting stuff together. It's nice to see the 'proper' way to do it and though i'm sure every boat is different. I'd say it's nice just so you don't end up standing like a dear in headlights or standing up for a presentation drawing a blank but you can go up wind, down or across (the technical terms), try not to hit anything... easy enough. the landing and launching aren't too bad. The setting up and taking down and getting it in and out of the water seem like the hardest part barring any catastrophes or accidents.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Sure as Capta says sailing is not rocket science.

HOWEVER there are some things which need to be taught IMHO.

Docking in tight marinas with cross winds/currents. Getting it wrong will be very expensive.

Sailing high performance catamarans in stronger winds. 

Reading the weather. There was a sobering example a few years back in the USA somewhere on the gulf coast I think. A bunch of boats were returning from a race when a strong frontal system blew through, with a black squall line down to the water . Anyone used to reading the weather would have had all sails down except for a pocket handkerchief washboards in and everybody in PFDs. Unfortunately most did not and many boats capsized still with full sail up and not a PFD in sight. Lives were lost.

Rough weather sailing and heaving too.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Yes you can. I did back in the 70s. But I started with a 14 foot daysailer and gradually moved up is size over the years. And I had some power boat experience. I would not suggest starting with a 30+ foot sailboat without some experience or lessons. Too many skills needed and just watching YouTube videos isn't going to hack it.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

sailingfool said:


> I'd suggest you consider what would be a wise answer to "Can I learn to drive on my own? "


Absolutely.

When I turned 12 my dad took me out to our fields with our 50's land rover and after a half hour turned me loose.

By the time I turned 15 I was a better driver than most adults I know. Only needed the rules book to pass the test.

Perfect example, I've never considered paying a driving school anything but a total waste of money, including for the dozen or so kids and SO's I've taught.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Here is a short list of boats I think would make pretty good learner boats, in no particular order. These boats are maybe 500 lbs or less and are going to be traveling at generally 5 knots or less. I would compare sailing them without lessons more to riding a bicycle without formal lessons than driving a car without formal lessons. There isn't much inertia, and when they flip over, you just right them and keep on going. Avoid very open water, strong winds or cold water or you could put yourself at risk. The same as when you are learning to ride a bicycle you buy a simple bike, avoid highways or difficult mountain trails etc. I learned to ride a bike in a park, you could take the equivalent approach with a small boat and learn to sail in a pond river, reservoir or small lake.

Perhaps the easiest boat I have ever sailed is a Hobie Wave. Stable, fun to sail, very forgiving, just one sail, just one rope to pull, there isn't even a boom to brain you. These boats pretty well sail themselves. Only 245 lbs.

https://www.hobie.com/sail/wave/

Sunfish are common, inexpensive, fun to sail. Just one sail to worry about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunfish_(sailboat)

Lasers are great boats, they can be had used fairly inexpensively. They are a boat that is easy to sail, but more difficult to sail well, which is great because you just keep learning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_(dinghy)

A boat I wouldn't discount if you are budget oriented and a DIYer is the PDR. You can build one of these boats for a few hundred dollars and learn quite a bit about the boat during the building process. These boats are lower performance and more restricted to sheltered waters than those above, but they are cheap and you can find people to race them against if that interests you.

Puddle Duck Racer - Easiest Sailboat to Build and Race

These are just a few examples, there are many other good options, these are just some of the ones that I think are good examples of the learner bicycles of boats.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Conceptually possible? "Some people can learn the fundamentals..."? Hilarious. Though I have read many books (and written several plus about 200 published articles) I have never had a lesson and I believe I know far more than "the fundamentals." That said, I am a person that learns very efficiently from books. I don't need to be shown. I'm better off having the underlying principles stated clearly in print.

I'm also with Outbound. I've sailed with ASA grads and self-taught sailors, and the latter invariably have a deeper understanding of sailing and the wind, though perhaps less understanding of equipment they have not used.

---

So yes, you can teach yourself. But as others have stated, you should be a person that can learn from books. Learning simply by doing is possible, but in that case I would start very small. It will also take a lot longer to learn the subtleties of trim, sailing in all conditions, and most importantly, dealing with contingencies.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

TQA said:


> Sure as Capta says sailing is not rocket science.
> 
> HOWEVER there are some things which need to be taught IMHO.
> 
> ...


Come on now. I hardly think any of your statements are relevant to dinghy sailing. I certainly did not imply that the OP should buy himself a 50 footer first time out.


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## DaisysDriver (Feb 8, 2017)

Having done so myself I would say yes. My caveats would be... go slow... don't get ahead of yourself...get the right boat... a Catalina 22 or something in that range... go slow building skills one at a time... I am not sure why so much emphasis on books here... I learned far more from videos (youtube) than books... but I am a slow reader... I would add that forums like this can be a great resource. When something unexpected does or does not happen in your early learning curve come back here. And as others have said befriend folks in whatever marina you end up in. The sailing community is a very helpful bunch of folks. Who knows maybe there is someone reading this thread who would offer to coach you through the initial experience...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Experience is a good teacher
Books can make you book smart
I wouldn’t minimize what you can learn from others also. Doesn’t have to be a formal class
Also different people learn different ways. 

Sailing for Dummies book is on the shelf right next to Surgery for Dummies and Rocket Science for Dummies


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

TQA said:


> ... HOWEVER there are some things which need to be taught IMHO.
> 
> Sailing high performance catamarans in stronger winds....


And that isn't taught by ASA. That is taught by pushing a spinnaker-equipped beach cat to the edge of the envelope and past, many times, over a period of years. Or rather, that is the only training I have ever accepted for helmsmen of multihulls I've owned, from cruising cats to Kevlar speedsters. I want to see a guy that always has sails ready to release, never leaves the helm while on watch, and knows when to bear off, when to feather, and when he's got too much sail up.

I think the lack of intensive beach cat training explains some of the high-profile capsizes we've seen.

There are somethings that have to be experienced. Start with small boats.

http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2010/04/merits-of-learning-to-sail-on-small.html


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

TQA said:


> Sure as Capta says sailing is not rocket science.
> 
> HOWEVER there are some things which need to be taught IMHO.
> 
> ...


I think the subjects you mention are more often self taught. Who here has taken a lesson in performance catamaran in strong winds or heavy weather sailing? It seems like as your skill expand you start reading more, collecting books on advanced subjects, get scared or challenged and vow to get better.

I agree on you on needing lessons for some subjects. While mostly self taught, I have taken at least two lessons on docking and close quarter maneuvering. The cost of the lessons were cheaper than getting it wrong.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

If you read books, watch videos, or even ask questions on this forum, you are not learning alone. Read, do, repeat. Works for me.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Just remember that one minimizes their losses from making mistakes through experience and one gains experience by making mistakes or even better by learning not to make those mistakes by leaning on the experience of others who have already made them. 

It usually costs more to go off on your own and learn the hard way by making common mistakes while trying to figure it out for yourself. Most won't admit how many times they shot themselves in the foot trying to forgo getting training from a credible source and just tried to figure it out themselves. Many times its pride or arrogance that prevents many from submitting to a teacher or trainer since obviously with their superior intellect they can do better themselves or they want to be on a faster track to their goal and don't want to assimilate the required foundation knowledge first.

To others its because they want edutainment and not education. Some of our children's television programming is to blame for this where children get used to glitzy edutainment and are not left well equipped mentally as they grow older to go to school, work and apprentice or be mentored instead of being edutained.

People who do not want to be taught and would rather figure it out for themselves cost us dearly at the Sailing Center as they do a great deal of preventable damage that if they even half listened or read some portion of the printed material or watched a part of the training video they would not have had the majority of preventable mishaps that they did.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

One needs to consider what your goal is... are you interested in a small boat for small day sails and maybe some races? Of are you looking to have a cruiser type boat that you take out of the harbor to another destination where you anchor etc? Are you looking to take off into the ocean to some islands far away?

Even if the goal is world cruising... you wouldn't start with a larger cruising boat.

Sail trim can be difficult to learn... the fine points... bending the mast and so forth.

When I decided to jump into sailing I was expecting to be a partner on a 48 boat... YIKES my "partner" had a 32 foot boat and was a very good sailor. He said he would teach me. HAHAHAHA. So I decided to take a Colgate 3 day on the water learn to sail course. I also bought every book on sailing and cruising I could find. It was a very intense period of immersion in a completely foreign to be "genre". But I loved the idea of the newness of it all.

The Colgate course was excellent. I can't recommend it enough to a noobs. It hits all the main topics... even if only lightly.

The partnership deal feel thru so now armed with my sailing certificate I wanted to sail and decided I needed my own boat. So I went to the broker for the 48 who laughed at me and said he had a 36... which I closed on in late August several months after completing the Colgate course.

The 36 was very intimidating. I got my friend to sail with me until I out the boat in winter storage. I really learned a lot in this intense period of sailing and getting to know my boat. My goal was to sail offshore and so began my 5 year program of learning and preparation and fitting out the boat with the gear and systems I needed.

I did all this "prep" and additional learning completely on my own... building on the basic learn to sail which was on a Soling. I've sailed 10s of thousands of miles... single handed ocean passages as well. I am very comfortable with sailing my boat... But I have done some deliveries as well. 

There is still a helluva lot to learn.. and I learn every day. And that's one of the draws of sailing. It's always new and challenging.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Can you learn to fly a plane on your own? I believe that the answer to both is "yes", but I don't want you to do it anywhere near me or my stuff. You also better have good insurance.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Sailing isn't nearly as hard as learning to fly, but then I can't fly so maybe it is?

I'd say its about as hard as teaching yourself to ride a bike alone. Some people (my opinion) would learn better this way.

I hope I don't offend the gentleman when I relay this story. I run our sailclub website, all web emails come to me. I got an email from a guy who asked if we still are related to the local ASA school. The 2 (3) instructors we had are retired now, and have closed the school. However, they do frequent our club. Some will give NON ASA instructions. Anyway. He asked if we still give lessons, or if not, if someone would be willing to take him out.

The answer was simple, sure someone will teach him to sail.

I run into him a few days later on the water (on a motorboat). He's never sailed before, but he's a pilot, bought his first boat. Its a 47 foot catamaran!

I'd say YES you CAN learn to sail on that, but you need lots of open water, and time. I don't know the extended story to purchasing such a boat, and I'm sure its quite interesting. 

I do think the learning curve will be faster on a smaller boat. Also I can make some assumptions and that is that navigation is not a problem for him, nor is basic systems checklists.

I have no doubt he could teach himself on such a gorgeous boat... he could also get used to boat handling, and frankly will need to, on that boat as a motor boat.

Ironically while our local club has some really great sailors, some with thousands of miles of offshore experience, I think I'm the only one who has actually sailed a large cat. Regardless to the OP... formal training isn't necessary, but finding someone to drag you through the basics who already knows how to sail, makes the learning curve faster. Get them to take you out on your own boat if you can... that way you can formulate your own checklists for getting ready to sail.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

As regards heavy weather there are classic books about this. I read them and reread them. But they are meaningless until you learn how to handle your boat in heavy weather. It’s taught one should hove to. My boat takes a fair amount of fiddling around to hove to and even then fore reaches a bit. In winds/seas hoving to might be an option she does better fully reefed on a near reach or a far reaching on just storm jib. Beyond that the Jordan series drogue comes out. All the schools, vids, and books in the world won’t teach me that hoving to takes too much time to tune and get just right and doesn’t improve the ride that much as to be worth it on my boat. Other fin bulb boat captains come to the same decision 
Ed is a very knowledgeable teacher but there are a fair number of idiots as well. If you do hire some one do your due diligence first.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SeaStar58 said:


> People who do not want to be taught and would rather figure it out for themselves cost us dearly at the Sailing Center as they do a great deal of preventable damage


Once again, how much "preventable damage" can someone do with a boat 15' or less? 
Only a fool would buy a big boat to learn on, and no amount of lessons will make that person any less a fool.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

eherlihy said:


> Can you learn to fly a plane on your own? I believe that the answer to both is "yes", but I don't want you to do it anywhere near me or my stuff. You also better have good insurance.


Not really a good analogy. Because there is no training wheels to flying. There is no equivalent to a sunfish on a small pond when it comes to flying. There is no equivalent of beaching a or anchoring an airplane. A comparison I like to make when people ask about the dangers of both: if something goes wrong on a boat, I personally know how to swim, in the air, I don't personally know how to fly.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

capta said:


> Once again, how much "preventable damage" can someone do with a boat 15' or less?
> Only a fool would buy a big boat to learn on, and no amount of lessons will make that person any less a fool.


Several thousand dollars worth every week. One just t-boned someone Else's New Nacra putting a hole through their hull. Another dumped a $2,000 rudder and couldn't tell us where. Another forgot to put the center board down and instead of releasing the sheets ended up knocked down with the mast, standing rigging and sails torn up when it went under the dock costing a few thousand to fix. Another panic'd and would not follow the coaches instructions and rammed into the coaches boat before the coach could get the engine started putting a hole through the hull and liner of a Whaler costing over a thousand to repair. It all adds up very quickly and like Farmers Insurance we've seen a lot of it.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

SeaStar58 said:


> Several thousand dollars worth every week. One just t-boned someone Else's New Nacra putting a hole through their hull. Another dumped a $2,000 rudder and couldn't tell us where. Another forgot to put the center board down and instead of releasing the sheets ended up knocked down with the mast, standing rigging and sails torn up when it went under the dock costing a few thousand to fix. Another panic'd and would not follow the coaches instructions and rammed into the coaches boat before the coach could get the engine started putting a hole through the hull and liner of a Whaler costing over a thousand to repair. It all adds up very quickly and like Farmers Insurance we've seen a lot of it.


So what your saying is learning in a controlled instructed environment is dangerous.:wink


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SeaStar58 said:


> the coaches instructions and rammed into the coaches boat before the coach could get the engine started


You kinda shot your whole argument in the foot if you are seeing damage from coached (teachers teaching sailing?) boats too.
It certainly isn't common practice for a sailing coach or teacher shut off his engine while he has students around him, even here in the West Indies, where everything is a whole lot more laid back than up there in civilization unless he is actually pulling students from the water. I think that rather irresponsible, as the student boats usually spread out a bit and in an emergency, the time spent starting an outboard (often cranky) could mean the difference between life and death for a student farther away.
I work and sail in one of the most popular bareboat sailing venues on this planet and haven't seen as much damage by completely incompetent "credit card captains", operating boats they aren't even qualified to be crew on, in a whole season as you seem to in a week.
One's gotta wonder why that is?


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## SailingMango (Jun 16, 2018)

We engaged in targeted learning from others.

As a kid, learning how to get the top of the mast out of the bottom of a lake. 
As an adult, my wife took a week long sailing class with only women. It was priceless to her.
When we bought our 30,000 pound sailboat, we hired my wife's captain for a day to teach and give us confidence docking and maneuvering in tight quarters.
A friend organized a 2-3 class on docking in reverse.

All of these times were excellent instruction, _for us_, given by others. for everything else we read and practiced, failed, adjusted, practiced more.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

SailingMango said:


> We engaged in targeted learning from others.
> 
> As a kid, learning how to get the top of the mast out of the bottom of a lake.
> As an adult, my wife took a week long sailing class with only women. It was priceless to her.
> ...


This ^^ is a good balance. I would add into the "everything" else: YouTube. There are some excellent instructional videos these days especially by Maryland School of Sailing and Seamanship.

However you go about your sailing education, the most valuable to us for getting over anxiety was (and still is) talking to other sailors face to face. Hearing how they broke stuff, ran into stuff, did things wrong, etc. and how they learned from it and lived to stand in front of us to tell their stories was often just what we needed.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

jephotog said:


> So what your saying is learning in a controlled instructed environment is dangerous.:wink


No but that people who have a negative attitude towards being instructed are a danger not only to themselves but to others around them and you can't discount the damage they can do when they branch out on their own and refuse to follow instruction. One who refuses to be taught can do a lot of damage in a short time and then leave themselves open to paying the consequences which can cost many times the price tag of a sailing course.

Unfortunately too many take the course because a spouse or other family member insisted so they come in knowing it all with a chip on their shoulder and are the ones most often causing all the mayhem.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Like being really bad at doing dishes, rewards you with being required to it less


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

capta said:


> You kinda shot your whole argument in the foot if you are seeing damage from coached (teachers teaching sailing?) boats too.
> It certainly isn't common practice for a sailing coach or teacher shut off his engine while he has students around him, even here in the West Indies, where everything is a whole lot more laid back than up there in civilization unless he is actually pulling students from the water. I think that rather irresponsible, as the student boats usually spread out a bit and in an emergency, the time spent starting an outboard (often cranky) could mean the difference between life and death for a student farther away.
> I work and sail in one of the most popular bareboat sailing venues on this planet and haven't seen as much damage by completely incompetent "credit card captains", operating boats they aren't even qualified to be crew on, in a whole season as you seem to in a week.
> One's gotta wonder why that is?


The damage is usually from know it all's who refuse to follow instructions. Sometimes its outsiders who are learning on their own who sail into one of our training areas and refuse to comply with a coaches request. Those that pay attention and follow instruction rarely ever cause a problem.

When you have multiple advanced students out on the water in lasers huddling for group instruction for regatta you have to shut down to talk to them. On the occasions when an entry level student leaves their designated practice area and sails into the group getting ready for regatta, refuses to depower and rams the instructor because they know better its a bad student. A coach is rarely going to keep an outboard running when surrounded by a dozen or so prams, lasers or 420's while giving them instructions for their next practice run from marker to marker plus he is going to think twice about spinning up a prop if there is any chance a student is going to end up in the water.

Yesterday we had close to 100 boats out on the water ranging from beginners, advanced students and seasoned members out for a pleasure sail with ages from grade school kids in summer camp to retired folk who are almost Centenarians on a crowded inter-coastal with charter boat, tour boat, student, pleasure and commercial traffic and despite all that opportunity its only the few trouble makers who cause all the damage. If students continue to defy instruction they get the boot and if they are members then their membership is also canceled.

Main point is that it only takes one who thinks they don't need instruction to do thousands of dollars in damage to their own and other boats in very short time. You damage someone else's boat doing your own thing and it does not matter how much or little your boat is worth as you will be responsible for the total cost of making that other boat whole again. Your best bet at avoiding that is to be humble, take the course and pay attention to the teacher doing as he/she instructs.


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## RichardPF (Jun 17, 2018)

Where are you located? 
In most places it is relatively easy to find someone to crew with. 

This won't cost you anything (but bringing cold water/sodas/snacks and the like will help win friends). 
I would not suggest looking to buy a boat right away until you have some "sea time" and a better idea of what you want. 

Things that you might consider buying are your own life jacket and sailing gloves. That way you know that whatever boat you are on, there are ones aboard that fits you .

Depending on the body of water you will be sailing on, there is a size of boat that is a stable platform that maximizes learning and minimizes panic. 
For most larger lakes and coastal bays this range is 20 to 25 foot boats with keels.
Try to crew on one of these owned by easy going folks (not hard core racers).

In a very short time you should have a much better idea of what you want.

If by some bit of luck you happen to be in Arizona, I would be happy to take you out on my boat so you could start "learning the ropes".


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

My earlier analogy is fine: have you ever heard of an ultralight? 

I don't want me, my family, or my stuff anywhere near where someone that does not want/like instruction.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Aptitude is not distributed equally. I may be able to respond to one form of learning that you may not and vice versa. Give it a shot, buy a book and find out. 

Situational awareness is natural for some and near impossible for others. To a minor degree, the fight or flight differences between people, also play a factor. Will you feeeze, when faced with a surprise, or act. 

I don’t think you can look to the success or failures of others as indicative. The self taught crew that has spent years aboard has very likely learned from others, albeit not formally.

Anyone, I mean anyone, can learn to sail. Whether you can teach yourself just depends on you.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

eherlihy said:


> My earlier analogy is fine: have you ever heard of an ultralight?


Yes I know two people who have died in them.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_T._Walton

He could have afforded a mechanic, and had his own jet and a professional pilot on staff. Aviation is not a casual hobby.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Just had another self taught sailor take out a rental damaging the boat while jibing knocking down a Hobie 16 catching the sand bar ripping out a shroud and loosing the mast. Didn't want lessons or a refresher because they were an "Expert Sailor". The wind was only at 6 mph with 8 maybe 10 mpg gusts.

Two rescue boats to pull them out, right the Hobie, retrieve the mast and tow it in to the yard for repairs. These rentals by tourists who faked the rental questionnaire about their ability to sail are causing too much damage. Sometimes you feel they used a cheat sheet or crammed with a little on-line research to be able to answer the questions about sailing correctly. A coach was going after them to call them back in just before they lost control as it became obvious that they were not capable of sailing a beach cat like they had claimed. At least all the Summer Camp Students were in for the day and out of this "Expert Sailors" way. These hourly vacation beach cat and wet boat rentals cause much more damage than the students or members.

Its Florida where we are outnumbered by tourists 5 to 20 to one depending on the season.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

SeaStar58 said:


> Just had another self taught sailor take out a rental damaging the boat while jibing knocking down a Hobie 16 catching the sand bar ripping out a shroud and loosing the mast. Didn't want lessons or a refresher because they were an "Expert Sailor". The wind was only at 6 mph with 8 maybe 10 mpg gusts.
> 
> Two rescue boats to pull them out, right the Hobie, retrieve the mast and tow it in to the yard for repairs. These rentals by tourists who faked the rental questionnaire about their ability to sail are causing too much damage. .


You keep harping on the aviation industries safety record because of automation, yet you make your average day at work sound like sailboat carnage because of incompetent sailors.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

jephotog said:


> You keep harping on the aviation industries safety record because of automation, yet you make your average day at work sound like sailboat carnage because of incompetent sailors.


I worked for years as a programmer writing digital mapping software for Military/Civilian use in Terrestrial, Aviation and Marine applications and its not perfected there yet which I commented on in a different thread about AI and applying some of that tech and baseline data that I helped develop to the automobile. Its still not perfected for Aviation and Marine applications where there is generally a wider level of separation and still requires full time monitoring and involvement so applying that to vehicles on public streets right now to take over 100% is still a bit naive and premature however bringing that up here is off topic and possibly just a bit of a personal affront.

Pointing out that the majority of the damages I see at a Sailing Venue is from self taught renters and how much it costs to deal with that is very relevant to a discussion on "Can I learn to sail on my own". Answering the secondary query of how much can the damages incurred really cost when the mishaps of being self taught are incurred on a small boat is also relevant.

The venue I volunteer at sees hundreds of less than 20 foot boats off almost daily, most of which displace less than 500 lbs, with the majority of mishaps being from self taught sailors who do not realize that they aren't really there yet and need some hands on training by someone who actually knows what they are doing. The students who are willing to be taught do very well and are not really part of the problem. With the volume we are talking about there are going to be incidents and its very interesting to see who causes the bulk of them and its most definitely not the students.

In either thread the solution is the same, that you need a properly trained person at the controls who is capable of piloting the craft be it a land vehicle, aircraft or boat.

As for this topic, figuring it out on your own and learning from your mistakes can be costly and lead to liabilities beyond your own personal property even when learning on a relatively small boat. That some have done so with a certain level of success still does not negate that most will not do as well self teaching themselves the skill or art of sailing without some at least basic hands on coaching to help them develop good foundation skills before branching off on their own.

Personal boating (motor or sail its still a powered vessel) stands out as not having formal standardized licensing/training/testing requirements such as driving a personal vehicle on a public roadway or flying a personal aircraft in public airspace though some states are now requiring only younger folks born after a certain date to take a water safety course which is a start however there really appears to be a need for a formal personal boat drivers licensing program nation wide which is a topic for another discussion.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

It makes sense to learn in a controlled environment in a smaller boat. What ever the mistakes the damages should be less if there is any. And of course one should learn in waters that don't have other boats around making for collision possibilities. As the learner masters the lighter air and smaller boat handling they can move up in size and work in stronger winds and larger waves.

Analogies to flying are irrelevant.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

"Personal boating (motor or sail its still a powered vessel) stands out as not having formal standardized licensing/training/testing requirements such as driving a personal vehicle on a public roadway or flying a personal aircraft in public airspace though some states are now requiring only younger folks born after a certain date to take a water safety course which is a start however there really appears to be a need for a formal personal boat drivers licensing program nation wide which is a topic for another discussion. "


Just what we need lawyers and government to read some turd yammering for MORE rules and regulations! What do you want next walking and breathing licenses?


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Needed for permission to be a parent, for sure


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Tanski said:


> "Personal boating (motor or sail its still a powered vessel) stands out as not having formal standardized licensing/training/testing requirements such as driving a personal vehicle on a public roadway or flying a personal aircraft in public airspace though some states are now requiring only younger folks born after a certain date to take a water safety course which is a start however there really appears to be a need for a formal personal boat drivers licensing program nation wide which is a topic for another discussion. "
> 
> Just what we need lawyers and government to read some turd yammering for MORE rules and regulations! What do you want next walking and breathing licenses?


We need more accountability and for people to man up and not be so cavalier. If enough people prove that they are unwilling to be responsible then the only sane choice is to make it an activity that can be practiced only after proving that you have the skills along with empowering a governing authority to enforce that.

For motorcycle operators in many States it was turning over the motorcycle endorsement process to the Motorcycle Safety Foundation making it so you had to present an MSF Certificate indicating you passed the Basic Riders Course before you were given an Motorcycle Riders Endorsement. This has worked out quite well and has reduced incidents of single rider accidents where this was adopted.

A Power or Sailboat Endorsement on a Drivers License with the Endorsement Process handled by Accredited Sailing Centers could be a workable solution to deal with licensed drivers who think they know it all and can just take off in a boat without any training on the rules of proper operation.

Its a start that in Florida they require - Anyone born on or after January 1, 1988 who operates a vessel powered by 10 horsepower or more must pass an approved boater safety course and have in his/her possession photographic identification and a boating safety education identification card issued by the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. Or is accompanied onboard by a person who is least 18 years old and possesses the required Boating Safety Education Identification Card, provided that person is attendant to and responsible for the safe operation of the vessel. A non-resident must have in his or her possession proof that he or she has completed a NASBLA-approved boater safety course or equivalency examination from another state.

Sailing Vessels larger than a child's pram should also be included in this requirement regardless of the presence of an outboard motor.

BTW: Continued Name Calling, Internet Bullying or Profanity will not be tolerated and will get your Posts Ignored or your ID Blocked Completely. I try to be civilized in my responses and expect the same from those that address me.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I dont follow the aircraft/small sailboat analogy. Apples and oranges. 6 year olds skipper optimist dinghys. Can you imagine the horror of seeing a dozen grade oners lined up for take off in ultra lights to go fly over your neighbourhood?

Same thing with automobiles, you need to be 16 to skipper a car. Kids from sailor families following a dinghy program have moved up to some fairly high performance boats by that age and are sailing pretty well.

There is some stuff to learn with sailing, but the inertia and power of a small sailboat doesnt easily translate to a 3500 lb car traveling down the highway at 60 knots or a gas powered aircraft flying at several thousand feet.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

SeaStar58 said:


> I worked for years as a programmer writing digital mapping software for Military/Civilian use in Terrestrial, Aviation and Marine applications and its not perfected there yet which I commented on in a different thread about AI and applying some of that tech and baseline data that I helped develop to the automobile. Its still not perfected for Aviation and Marine applications where there is generally a wider level of separation and still requires full time monitoring and involvement so applying that to vehicles on public streets right now to take over 100% is still a bit naive and premature however bringing that up here is off topic and possibly just a bit of a personal affront.


I apologize for the personal affront. It's just for a couple of days now you have described a scene of daily sailboat carnage. It sounds like a pretty amazing sailing program you are part of, I have never heard anything like it, if I lived nearby I would probably participate in it. What I can't understand is how you send off 100s of boats a day without a more thorough check out. Every place I have gone to rent a boat has made me either take a class to rent the boat. I always opted out by taking an hour private lesson to learn the complexities of the new to me boat, like a laser and show I can sail to their standards. These places were probably a lot less busy than your as a result of tougher screening but also had to do less boat repairing each week.

Without going back and reading all the posts in this thread I feel the consensus is, (except for those who teach sailing for a living) you can teach yourself to sail but it's better to take a lesson to start off.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Just a reminder of what can go wrong when parking a boat.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

SeaStar58 said:


> Just had another self taught sailor take out a rental damaging the boat while jibing knocking down a Hobie 16 catching the sand bar ripping out a shroud and loosing the mast. Didn't want lessons or a refresher because they were an "Expert Sailor". The wind was only at 6 mph with 8 maybe 10 mpg gusts.


I have to question why the sailing centre was renting a hot boat like a Hobie 16 to beginners.

A 320 lb Hobie 16 carries more sail than a 2500 lb Catalina 22. Not a good choice of boats for renting to beginners.

It sounds like the sailing school is creating some of its own problems.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SeaStar58 said:


> A Power or Sailboat Endorsement on a Drivers License with the Endorsement Process handled by Accredited Sailing Centers could be a workable solution to deal with licensed drivers who think they know it all and can just take off in a boat without any training on the rules of proper operation.


Please, explain to me how you see this working?
Right now, someone without ever setting foot on a boat can get a USCG certification to operate a vessel to carry passengers. The license prep courses are admittedly not there to teach their students anything more than how to pass the test.
ASA is one of the biggest con jobs in the US. They have no official standing, are not recognized by any governmental agency as a certifying authority, and yet they sell their system as if it was officially backed by the US government. They are a private, for-profit organization, period. 
When I was teaching at an ASA school, we parted ways because I wasn't comfortable with their cookie cutter "our way or the highway" method of teaching. All students are *not* created equal.
As it is, most state boating certificating agencies are nothing more than revenue sources for the state. It is also a giveaway certificate and anybody can pass without learning anything.
No, I don't think the answer is in governmental oversight or licensing, but more in the hands of those that rent the boats.
When I worked for a bareboat company in the Caribbean, some years back, it was very easy to suss out those who were overstating their capabilities, and we required them to prove their competence. If they couldn't (through actual operation of the vessel), then we put a skipper aboard for the first few days, or the whole trip, depending.
Just like taking SCUBA divers out for a couple of dives. If they couldn't assemble their own gear (mandatory on any dive boat I operated) we knew we had to watch these folks very carefully, because they were not competent divers and might kill themselves.
I certainly can't say for sure, but from what you have posted, it sounds like the operation you work for/with is more interested in renting boats than seeing that they are sailed by competent people, just like some of the bareboat companies down here.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

SeaStar58 said:


> We need more accountability and for people to man up and not be so cavalier. If enough people prove that they are unwilling to be responsible then the only sane choice is to make it an activity that can be practiced only after proving that you have the skills along with empowering a governing authority to enforce that.


I would only agree if people harming others' property was a huge problem not handled by insurance etc.

Or their sunk boats were a major cause of pollution compared to what our major land-based man-swarms are already doing.

If it's just the stupider people killing themselves, I say more freedom the better, we need more Darwinian herd-thinning in human society.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Ed makes the key point. You have to want to learn. Doesn’t matter if you learn in a school or from other sailors or by trial and error. You have to put your ego aside. Realize someone may know a better way. Someone may have something to teach you. You maybe captain and they maybe crew but they may be able to show you something that makes you a better sailor. You may have not been following best practices about something for the last 30 years and some 90 day wonder maybe able to set you straight. Still as a sport or for the cruising life nothing teaches like experience. I’ll pick experience with a good attitude over any level of bought credentials. Some of the worst clowns I’ve seen on boats have held US captaincies with sailing endorsements.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

sailing11 said:


> Any thoughts on this? I dont want to take lessons


This is the second best forum question ever (not specifically but in general).

the best question is Is flying a pirate flag lame you can google this one.

It's an understandable question, I want to do \\ insert whatever you want // then just read the answers that support what you want. Of course, you could look at both, but not too closely the ones that have a strong argument against what you want to do.

I am sure this sounds snarky or leans to stark, but realistically most forums are made of such questions, if only to some degree.

It appears to be a 'yes' or 'no' question, but few (if any) will only answer yes or no. Using this question as an example.... what does 'on my own' mean.. does it mean completely devoid of information? Or can another sailor tell you where the tree stumps are in the lake? can you ask the dmv if you need to register your boat, if it doesn't have a motor?

If you look at a youtube video, is that on your own?

I would suggest it is nearly impossible to avoid help from others, especially if you post a question on a forum.

And it would seem to me, in this case (at least), it would be kind of hard to do something well, without a little help... simple things like how to rig your boat; is it going to rain today; where are the boat launches; is that bay used for testing bombs, and so on.

And some of the really simple things (Like push the tiller this way to go left) would be learned eventually, but a little help will make the learning curve a bit less steep.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

It is wrong to criticize the OP question, it is perfectly phrased.

What he wants to avoid is taking formal **lessons**.

It is willfully obtuse to interpret that to mean, "no learning from others" in less official, structured circumstances.

Same with criticizing the answers, the clear consensus is a simple "Yes, go for it".

The rest is just suggesting How.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

if you are talking to me, I wasn't even talking about the person (directly) making the question... but that it was kind of a typical question for a forum



> I don't want to take lessons


doesn't have the word 'formal' in it...

S/He hasn't posted much since the first post, so I don't know what he is thinking or pretend to

btw, pirate flags are cool


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

outbound said:


> You may have not been following best practices about something for the last 30 years and some 90 day wonder maybe able to set you straight.


I encountered this attitude quite often in my career. Most of the time it was timing more than a desire not to listen, that caused the problems.
No matter how excellent a 90-day wonder's ideas may be, they rarely, if ever, presented them at the right time. Perhaps that was because they *were* 90-day wonders and not seasoned sailors.
However, I challenge you to determine "the best practices" in any situation aboard a vessel. Personally, all I can do is offer the method or methods that have worked well for me.
For instance, I never, ever back down on my anchor unless there is no wind at all or I'm Med mooring. Never, ever! We also have never dragged. There are many on here who find that inconceivable. That certainly doesn't make them wrong, or right.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

john61ct said:


> It is wrong to criticize the OP question, it is perfectly phrased.
> 
> What he wants to avoid is taking formal **lessons**.
> 
> ...


Aww come on....you are no fun


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## sailing11 (Mar 14, 2018)

Obviously I was talking about how to avoid paying $700 for lessons (not how to avoid taking advice from others who obviously know more than you). Ive been on fish boats for 15 years and am confident with weather, tides, anchoring etc. (and I'm even comtemplating seeing how long I can survive on a boat with a bag of rice and some fishing gear, but that's an aside). 

Thanks for the tips. Sounds like if I do my research I can figure it out. My boat is a Catalina 27 thats rigged for single handing so Ill give er a go!


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Aside from the libertarian mem... leave me alone... there is no downside as far as I can see of operators have proven a level of competence to operate a boat with a motor (at least).. or perhaps any vessel of a certain gross weight. Admittedly it's difficult to design or engineering a meaningful course and the test for competency. But the idea that anyone can operate a boat with a motor or a sailboat of X tons is kinda frightening when you think about it. All operators should be familiar with and follow the rules of the road. Libertarian types might argue this is the gov interfering in their freedom. Tell that to the parents of a child killed in an avoidable boating incident cause by an incompetent operator.

I see some pretty poor seamanship around LIS and in the harbors... much of it power boats driving too fast in close quarters with other vessels.

Crowded waters... add alcohol into the mix and people will get hurt and lives will be lost unnecessarily. I don't expect to all manner of enforcement... as that would be too restrictive and feel like a nanny state.

I would just like to know operators are competent.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

sailing11 said:


> Obviously I was talking about how to avoid paying $700 for lessons (not how to avoid taking advice from others who obviously know more than you). Ive been on fish boats for 15 years and am confident with weather, tides, anchoring etc. (and I'm even comtemplating seeing how long I can survive on a boat with a bag of rice and some fishing gear, but that's an aside).
> 
> Thanks for the tips. Sounds like if I do my research I can figure it out. My boat is a Catalina 27 thats rigged for single handing so Ill give er a go!


Nice, knowing you had a boat at the start might have helped 

If you can handle a power boat safely, a sailboat under power is both conceptually and legally a power boat. It sounds like it really is just the sailing part you need to learn and I think Catalina 27s are pretty tame boats to trial and error with. Start with open water, light traffic and light wind.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

S- the basic libertarian premise is”allow me freedom as long as my actions do not injury or restrict the freedom of others and all should be responsible for the consequences of their actions”.

Learning the rules of the road pose no obstacle. Waking another boat, playing loud music in the middle of the night, running into another boat does as does anchoring poorly and dragging into another boat.

It’s a Hobbes/ Rousseau thing. Prove competence before given operating privileges or after. Where do you draw the line? Cruise ship? Hazmat carrier? Ferry? Unpowered sailing dinghy? For me licensure is needed when there’s a significant risk to others and the operators of the vessel couldn’t satisfy all financial and other consequences of their actions should mishap occur. 

In this and other settings impaired operators should be responsible for all the consequences of their actions. First death from their actions =life in prison. “Accident” while impaired=insurance voided for that event. 

My European friends are licensed. I’ve been licensed but now lapsed. Seems to have no impact on skill set in the setting of small vessel recreational sailing.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Capta I was backing down but then after anchoring in mud soup was taught it’s better practice to drop the anchor with enough slack there’s no tension on the chain and wait. Even if you need the engine to keep a slack situation. That way the anchor settles through the soup into something firmer. Then gently back down to get rid of the pile of chain sitting over the anchor drop spot so you aren’t confused. The lump of chain is heavy enough to make you think you have a good set when you don’t and you find that out with the 2AM squall. Then wait again for as long as you can tolerate. Then back down enough to confirm set.
Point being I didn’t grow up sailing in the Chesapeake. I was taught this after 25-30 years of sailing. It’s not a good technique nor necessary in crowded New England harbors or the leewards where knowing you have a good set quickly so you can move if necessary before the field is entirely filled is important. You ALWAYS need to be open to learning.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

outbound said:


> Capta I was backing down but then after anchoring in mud soup was taught it's better practice to drop the anchor with enough slack there's no tension on the chain and wait. Even if you need the engine to keep a slack situation. That way the anchor settles through the soup into something firmer. Then gently back down to get rid of the pile of chain sitting over the anchor drop spot so you aren't confused. The lump of chain is heavy enough to make you think you have a good set when you don't and you find that out with the 2AM squall. Then wait again for as long as you can tolerate. Then back down enough to confirm set.
> Point being I didn't grow up sailing in the Chesapeake. I was taught this after 25-30 years of sailing. It's not a good technique nor necessary in crowded New England harbors or the leewards where knowing you have a good set quickly so you can move if necessary before the field is entirely filled is important. You ALWAYS need to be open to learning.


Whoa there. I didn't say, or mean to imply that I am an idiot and pile the chain on my anchor. We lay the chain out, usually by allowing the vessel to go broadside to the wind and blow backwards. What we never do is put the engine in gear and back down to set the anchor. Again, this works just fine for us and I don't mean to say if you do it another way you are wrong. That was my point, not another discussion of anchoring techniques, which has been done to death on here.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> ......Tell that to the parents of a child killed in an avoidable boating incident cause by an incompetent operator.
> 
> I see some pretty poor seamanship around LIS and in the harbors... much of it power boats driving too fast in close quarters with other vessels.
> 
> ...


How does this align with how our roads are licensed and enforced? There is still rampant speeding and no shortage of drinking and driving. For that matter, how can we know that any given accident was avoidable, just because the operator passed some test long ago.

I'm totally good with some sort of education and testing, but I don't know as it will reduce the numbers of accidents. Especially in the NY metro area (where I was raised and lived for nearly 40 years), as the mentality is dog eat dog. Let no one into your lane of traffic, crowd out the next car or they'll crowd you out. That's the actual problem. Where I live, cars are more likely to stop at a green light to let you across the street (a practice I also dislike). There are still morons on the water, but I encounter them at a small fraction of the rate I recall in western LIS.

I think the waters would be orderly, if operators simply knew the basic rules. I also think (controversially), that one should be educated on safe boating practices, if they are to be entitled to a free rescue. I think many people would do the safer thing, if they even knew about it in the first place. Whether they'll work all that often, is another story.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

What is the point of ANY licensing for private use?
What good is that driving test that you took at 16 doing for you? Maybe if you had to re-test every 5 years.
What good is that yearly license plate sticker on my car? I had a safety check done when I bought my vehicle, it never gets looked at again, could have bald tires a worn out front end and no brakes - nobody cares enough to bother looking after the initial purchase? Maybe if every two years you had to have a safety inspection done to keep the vehicle on the road.
How bad do you have to screw up to lose you drivers license? I have worked with people with multiple impaired charges and an ignition interlock that they have to blow into before starting the car. As long as you can pay your insurance you can drive, screw up as many times as you want, might lose you license for a year at worst.....if you can afford a good lawyer then no problem.....
A good friend gave up driving at 83 after turning the wrong way on a one way st. and causing a 4 car head on collision - they didn't question his ability in causing the accident......He was smart enough to pull HIMSELF off the road not the cops or government.
What good is some B.S. sailing license unless you have to maintain the boat to a certain level of safety through yearly inspection AND be retested in your skills and knowledge every couple of years?
That paper in you pocket is basically toilet paper unless you have to prove your skills on a regular basis. Professionals have to....


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> How does this align with how our roads are licensed and enforced? There is still rampant speeding and no shortage of drinking and driving. For that matter, how can we know that any given accident was avoidable, just because the operator passed some test long ago.
> 
> I'm totally good with some sort of education and testing, but I don't know as it will reduce the numbers of accidents. Especially in the NY metro area (where I was raised and lived for nearly 40 years), as the mentality is dog eat dog. Let no one into your lane of traffic, crowd out the next car or they'll crowd you out. That's the actual problem. Where I live, cars are more likely to stop at a green light to let you across the street (a practice I also dislike). There are still morons on the water, but I encounter them at a small fraction of the rate I recall in western LIS.
> 
> I think the waters would be orderly, if operators simply knew the basic rules. I also think (controversially), that one should be educated on safe boating practices, if they are to be entitled to a free rescue. I think many people would do the safer thing, if they even knew about it in the first place. Whether they'll work all that often, is another story.


Drivers with licenses know how to drive and that alcohol and driving is not permitted.

Even if the licensing saved 10 lives it would be worth the inconvenience.

Too many cars and too accessible.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Sure you can. I more or less taught myself the basics on a Turnabout. Then raced and learned the finer points. Took Power Squadron at 14, and learned navigation and chart-plotting, for cruising and deliveries. (Full disclosure--nowadays I teach as a weekend gig).

So you can "teach yourself", though in a sense I had many "teachers" growing up, who weren't necessarily aware they were giving me lessons..

I do tend to think a couple of lessons early on will mean you have fewer bad habits to "un-learn".


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

jephotog said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_T._Walton
> 
> He could have afforded a mechanic, and had his own jet and a professional pilot on staff. Aviation is not a casual hobby.





> Walton died on June 27, 2005, when the CGS Hawk Arrow home-built ultralight aircraft (registered as an "experimental aircraft" under FAA regulations) that he was piloting crashed in Jackson, Wyoming. Walton's plane crashed at 12:20 p.m. local time (1820 GMT) shortly after taking off from Jackson Hole Airport.[8]
> 
> The National Transportation Safety Board later reported that Walton had improperly reinstalled the rear locking collar on the elevator control torque tube. This allowed the torque tube to move rearward during his flight and loosened the elevator control cable tension. The outcome of the failed repair was an inflight loss of pitch control, without which Walton could not control the aircraft's attitude.


Sorry for your loss. I am not sure if you are agreeing with me, but it seems you are. The late Mr Walton, with his own jet flew his home-built ultralight for enjoyment, as many of us with cruising boats like to take out a Sunfish, or Laser, because it is fun.

In flying and sailing when things go wrong, the consequences can be dire.

Either way, I still don't want someone learning how to fly, or learning how to sail, operating either of these machines anywhere near me, my family and friends, or our stuff, unless they are under the direct supervision of an instructor.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Absolutely.

You can teach yourself to sail in an afternoon.

You spend the rest of your life getting better at it.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Think some of this is a reflection of how sailing has changed.

In the past there was a natural progression from small to large. With this a built in learning curve.
Beach boat or other small boat ( for me hobie, flying Scott for beer cans, my own cape dory harpoon -you learned the physics by dumping the hobie, sail trim by being yelled st on the fs, basic maintenance on the cd harpoon.
Then small cruiser- mine was a cd 25 then a cd 28. You learned gas then diesel and basic coastal nav / rules of the road 
Then midsize cruiser- mine was a SHE36 and later a tayana. You learned heavy weather, instruments, ocean cruising and more nav/weather/maintenance/trip planing.
Then bigger cruiser for live aboard and the attendant skills involved.
Each step was incremental and organic. You learned from fellow sailors, your own research and experience.it took years but wasn’t rushed each layer building on confidence the prior layer was assimilated fully. Each new layer exciting.
Now people generally don’t have the time to slowly move up nor interest even if they have the money. Often the goal isn’t the sailing but rather getting to the level of skill they can charter in warm climes or crew for someone’s else’s boat and totally avoid the headaches of owning a boat. 
Totally different mindset. Kind of like my kids looking at vehicles as transport and me being a gear head. No right or wrong but a different gestalt.
The sailing school reflects this. I know Ed as his prior sailing school was out of my marina. He does a knock up job and produces a good, safe sailor if they listen to him. But when I gam with sisterships or long term cruisers they are very rarely ASA grads. One has a love supreme playing in their head the other lets spend the night together. Both great tunes.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Lazerbrains said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> You can teach yourself to sail in an afternoon.
> 
> You spend the rest of your life getting better at it.


I really think this encapsulates learning to sail. The basics are pretty darn easy. There are so many different aspects of the hobby and layers upon layers of things to learn and as said a lifetime of getting better.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

outbound said:


> Think some of this is a reflection of how sailing has changed.
> 
> In the past there was a natural progression from small to large. With this a built in learning curve.....


This is sensible and how most people approach sailing if they are new to it as an adult.

Yet we do see a fair amount of people in their 20's thru their 60's who want to get into sailing and usually cruising. It may not be practical for everyone to take the size ramp up to learning.

As I mentioned a number of times in the past... I basically wanted to sail but had no interest in anything but a boat that could be a "home" and that I could travel "anywhere" in. Many long distance cruisers go for a minimum mid 40' lengths. That is kinda big as a learn to sail boat for many reasons. I was supposed to be a partner with a seasoned sailor on a 48' boat. Deal feel thru. I decided to get a boat but smaller. I ended up with the 36 I still own. Aside from a Colgate Learn to Sail course... this boat was what I learned on. I had no plan with a schedule per se. After about 5 years of being self taught with the 36' I was "prepared enough" to venture off. I was a passionate learner and had few distractions like raising a family. I went from a Soling to a 36 cruiser as my boat to learn on and I didn't waste time or money going from one boat to the next larger one.

My boat is smaller than what many recommend. But more manageable and a good plan etc for cruising for a single sailor or a couple. I was lucky. It's probably too small for a family of 4.

People need to have a realistic plan which will be years long. There's a lot to learn and it's way way way more than basic "sailing".


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

eherlihy said:


> Either way, I still don't want someone learning how to fly, or learning how to sail, operating either of these machines anywhere near me, my family and friends, or our stuff, unless they are under the direct supervision of an instructor.


What has got so many on this thread so terrified by someone learning to sail without an instructor, in a *dinghy*?
How exactly is someone going to be such a danger to you, your family and friends, or your stuff in something like a Sunfish?
I really do not see the terror it seems to bring out in some.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I dont really see any downside to the sailing school approach aside from cost. I think it does lay a nice foundation of skills to build on with experience. I did the sailing school thing, I did it each summer for about 4 summers. It was fun. 

It gave me some exposure to different boats; Albacore, Laser and Laser 2. It gave me some sailing theory and some one showed me how to rig the boats.

It gave exposure to different types of sailing, including racing and other boats to race against; all boats we learned on had racing fleets in my area, particularly Laser and Albacore. In one of the advanced classes we camp cruised to different islands on the Albacores (this might have been because it was Scouts delivering the CYA program).

By the time I got my first boat at 17, which was a relatively powerful Fireball, I had all the basic skills I needed and hit the beach running.

My kids will definitely be going through the CanSail dinghy program, although I doubt I would bother them with a keel boat course.

However, for some one who wanted to skip the dingy phase and go straight to keel boats, I think the keel boat courses would offer a great foundation (I haven't taken one, so I'm just guessing).

I'm not against sailing courses, I just think it's possible to learn without. My dad was self taught and was a decent sailor.

I've often thought the keel boat cruising courses look like fun, but they are really expensive in my area. I can see how the price could be dissuassive.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

There is a really large difference between a person that enjoys the process of quietly work it out for himself through reading, watching and listening, but without instruction, and a person who stubbornly refuses to listen. The latter type wouldn't benefit from instruction anyway, further confusing the comparison.

I suspect the people on this forum who claim to be self taught are, for the most part, voracious readers and good listeners. The downside of class, for them, is that they really enjoy the process of working it out. A class would steal this from them, like giving them the answer to a puzzle.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

By the time I get to classroom class, I'm totally bored, already know 98% of the material.

But going sailing with a good teacher-captain, especially on my new to me boat, absolutely worth every penny.

Maybe every fourth day out in the first 20.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

pdqaltair said:


> There is a really large difference between a person that enjoys the process of quietly work it out for himself through reading, watching and listening, but without instruction, and a person who stubbornly refuses to listen. The latter type wouldn't benefit from instruction anyway, further confusing the comparison.
> 
> I suspect the people on this forum who claim to be self taught are, for the most part, voracious readers and good listeners. The downside of class, for them, is that they really enjoy the process of working it out. A class would steal this from them, like giving them the answer to a puzzle.


One must accept that when you take on "sailing" you will have to be self taught to some extent... that is to say you can't expect to have an instructor for everything you will need to know. Anyone who doesn't have reference books, or today view YouTubes to inform themselves is stubborn and stupid. Even this forum people are sharing their wisdom albeit in an informal way.

Why disparage some formal instruction which provide the foundation to build on? Pride or arrogance because you want to "figure it out for yourself?" More dumb...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

S-agree. I don’t care how you learn as long as you learn. Makes you a safer sailor and makes it safer when I go sailing. All good. Also keep the cooperative spirit of sailors. Teach others. Help others. It’s so nice when you’re alone in another country and someone comes along to help you fix something while teaching you how to do it yourself the next time. It’s also so nice to be able to do that for someone else. So learn all you can.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> .....The downside of class, for them, is that they really enjoy the process of working it out.......


When I went through instructor cert for scuba diving (a million years ago), we were taught the best teaching method was guided discovery. We were not to tell them everything we knew, just give them enough to get them started, mentor their progress and let them figure out the details. That included, letting them do it wrong, even when you saw it coming, immediately pointing out what would have been better (coachable moment), then having them try again.

The subtlety was when right and wrong did not have noticeably different outcomes, in the training conditions. For example, the right way is safer, but the wrong way is not always unsafe. You had to try hard to create the scenario that the wrong way would not work in, or it was just book learning. One downside to self teaching is potentially never seeing those circumstances.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

They say we learn from making mistakes... and there is wisdom on that. On the other hands... some mistakes can have serious consequences...


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

SanderO said:


> Aside from the libertarian mem... leave me alone... there is no downside as far as I can see of operators have proven a level of competence to operate a boat with a motor (at least).. or perhaps any vessel of a certain gross weight. Admittedly it's difficult to design or engineering a meaningful course and the test for competency. But the idea that anyone can operate a boat with a motor or a sailboat of X tons is kinda frightening when you think about it. All operators should be familiar with and follow the rules of the road. Libertarian types might argue this is the gov interfering in their freedom. Tell that to the parents of a child killed in an avoidable boating incident cause by an incompetent operator.
> 
> I see some pretty poor seamanship around LIS and in the harbors... much of it power boats driving too fast in close quarters with other vessels.
> 
> ...


I was motoring back in last night and the main difference between what I was doing and what the hapless idiots on big power boats all around me was just this- I was looking all around for traffic and anticipating how to avoid traffic. They were talking, looking at the shoreline, texting, not paying attention. Yet I have no more training than they do.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Sal Paradise said:


> I was motoring back in last night and the main difference between what I was doing and what the hapless idiots on big power boats all around me was just this- I was looking all around for traffic and anticipating how to avoid traffic. They were talking, looking at the shoreline, texting, not paying attention. Yet I have no more training than they do.


and leaving a nasty wake!


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

SanderO said:


> ...Why disparage some formal instruction which provide the foundation to build on? Pride or arrogance because you want to "figure it out for yourself?" More dumb...


You misunderstood and I could have been more clear.

I did not intend to disparage classes. I've given them, sailing, rock climbing, and ice climbing. I've taken classes in whitewater kayaking and roped access (which is different from recreational climbing). There are principles that can be taught more quickly in class, and there are hazards that are not obvious.

a. Very little is taught in a class that is not written in a book, somewhere. Smart people write them. I stand by that. The main problem is that you can't ask "why." 
b. Class is always followed by homework. Same with reading a book. That is where you take what you were taught and integrate the facts into you way of remembering and understanding. Some trial and error is involved. The teacher told you how and why, but it wasn't clear, so you go out and try it. I remember flipping a kayak in the same rapid twice, a few days after the class, before the answer hit me like a lightening bolt, and I said exactly what the teacher had said, but that I did not understand. I needed quiet, alone time to work through it, and then to own what I learned. In this case I had taken a class, but I could just as easily have read it in a book, tried it, and then worked it out.

In college we often said you "could either read the book or see the movie." If the teacher wrote the book there was often little difference. I'm pretty sure I learned more from certain books than a whole string of classes.


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## kaisersling (Sep 20, 2016)

Slayer said:


> Yes.....I bought Sailing for Dummies. I wouldn't learn on a 42 foot boat though. I learned on a 13" Chrysler Pirateer.


Which is actually more difficult, so unbeknownst to you it made you a better sailor faster . But seriously, I find a larger (keel boat) much easier to sail than a daysailer.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Slayer said:


> Yes.....I bought Sailing for Dummies. I wouldn't learn on a 42 foot boat though. I learned on a 13" Chrysler Pirateer.


I have always maintained that few can learn to sail on anything larger than a dinghy.
Sure, anybody can learn to pull strings and things, learn boat handling, navigation, anchoring and all of the other stuff one must learn to be a proficient boat operator, but not the "sailing".
Sailing is about feeling. Sailing is about feeling the repercussions of sheeting in an inch or two. Sailing is about knowing how far you can heel before you go too far and go in the drink. And you got over *that* fear, which many who learn on bigger boats never do. Sailing is about how shifting your weight affects sail trim in really light air. Rolling tacks and luffing so you don't capsize but still maintain the best speed possible. You can not learn these things on a boat where your weight is not the determining factor whether you are sailing or swimming!
None of this can be learned on a ton or more of boat. You'd better not capsize *that* boat, so you never do and never learn the limits. Nothing on a bigger boat happens with the speed and in direct response to an action like it does on a tiny boat.
None of this can be learned from a book or video. You must *feel/do* it.
So, you did it in what I feel is the best way. You got the basics down on a small boat and moved up. I'm sure you are a better sailor for it.


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## HobieMarty (May 27, 2018)

Yes. When I was 10 years old my Dad bought us a little Sea Snark and just kind of showed me the basics and I took it from there, I also had a little sailing book that I read all of the time. A few years later we got a Hobie 14 and I really learned how to sail fast. I say go for it, yes, you can learn to sail on your own. 


Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## tellemark32 (Aug 25, 2015)

Most effective = one on one. Hands down. Expensive? Yes, but it compresses time. You will not receive a group-think one-size-fits-all cookie-cutter curriculum. I've taken extensive classes. Most stink. High concentration on MOB drills. Lots of waiting around for others in the group to finish. But always, the MOB shoved down your throat. That's not reality and that's not something most folks will remember. 

It's the little things that are missed by most sailing schools, from the get-go, that should be part and parcel of every learn to sail course. Dressing the boat. Start out with having the student bend on BOTH main and headsail. Naked to dressed. Not just dinghies, but bigger boats too. This is a primary way to learn sail control lines and sail parts. Hands on beats pictures any day of the week. 

So, in my view, most sailing schools miss the mark by a mile. Sailing should be about just that. Sailing. No engine. Period. And, not just sailing dinghies. Start there, but move up to a boat of about twenty five to thirty feet. Even bigger sailboats are amazing creatures if you know what they are capable of. It takes a special breed of instructor to teach it right.


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## ocean drifter (Nov 4, 2014)

Hi -Sailing 11: You can learn to sail on your own no problem. But why put yourself through all the stress when there are plenty of experienced sailors out there who would be only to happy to share there wealth of experience with you for nothing. possibly even the person you buy your first yacht from. AS AA3JY said find an experienced buddy who will also be able to help you buy your first yacht; which will hopefully be a small inexpensive trailer sailer. It is not just sailing you need to learn but also basic seamanship which will save you getting into trouble in the first place. Best of luck and most of all have fun.


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## Tuna Driver (Sep 17, 2011)

Of course you can learn on your own. The basics are just that. You have a nice beginner boat that will give many years of pleasure. On the other hand, the posters that say learning on a dingy is the best way are absolutely correct. If you make a mistake, the consequences are immediate. If you trim properly and hike, there is a great feeling a keel boat will never come close to. A book like Sailing For Dummies or Isler's book will tell you things you may never learn otherwise or take years to discover. If you get a chance to do some low key racing as crew, you will learn things very much faster. Finally, many marinas have sailing clubs that will teach competency for less than $200. They will also introduce you to other boats and sailors. You'll need crew eventually. Enjoy and welcome to sailing.


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## HobieMarty (May 27, 2018)

Here ya go!!!









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

john61ct said:


> By the time I get to classroom class, I'm totally bored, already know 98% of the material.
> 
> But going sailing with a good teacher-captain, especially on my new to me boat, absolutely worth every penny.
> 
> Maybe every fourth day out in the first 20.


This is probably always the case, very seldom is there a class of people that all come with the same knowledge ***... and so often it is the person with the lowest level of knowledge who asks the most questions and brings class (down) to their level

Your scenario of 1:1 on your boat is always the best...

The only thing I wonder about.. finding the right person

( *** I've noticed this to be the most true in a computer course)


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

titustiger27 said:


> This is probably always the case, very seldom is there a class of people that all come with the same knowledge ***... and so often it is the person with the lowest level of knowledge who asks the most questions and brings class (down) to their level
> 
> Your scenario of 1:1 on your boat is always the best...
> 
> ...


Finding a personal teacher in anything is not easy task. And the boat is another issue... Your own boat? Or the instructor's boat? Would that be similar to the one you have or will be getting? Do you learn with a tiller of you will have a wheel?

The course I attended had a range of people in it. There weren't all that many questions which could slow the class progress. The on water sailing I recall only had 4 in the boat + the instructor. If such a course is available I would highly recommend it to a beginner. And of course once you pass you can take the boat out for X number of hours. The boat I have is very very different from a Soling. But the course was invaluable.... nomenclature, knots, navigation, trim, rigging, safety


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

While I personally prefer one-on-one instruction, there is value in multiple students, if done right. Regardless of who is ahead of the other, switching positions and watching your classmate do the task you just tried can be informative. It's common for there to be two pilots in a refresher course, even though only one can fly the plane at a time. If you are in the right seat, you get to watch them perform and anticipate what you might do next, without the pressure to perform yourself. It's not so bad, even though I still prefer to be alone.


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## Turtlehead Marine (Sep 1, 2018)

I agree with the DIY types.

Lessons are not a pre-requiste. The many good alternatives are listed above in other comments. Whichever way you go, just work within your own comfort level. Everyone has different personal and financial risk tolerances. 
Regardless of lessons or type/size of first boat (Laser, Viper, Martin 242/San Juan 24?). Do check your marine weather reports, let someone know where you are going, and when you plan to be back. Wear your pdf and... clip a waterproof handheld VHF radio to your chest (if you end up overboard while messing about and you can still call for help). 
The most important things are be safe, have fun - and learn from the many many mistakes you will make


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## jblumhorst (Apr 14, 2002)

I’m all for having people teach themselves to sail in little dinghies, on uncrowded sheltered bodies of warm water, Where they can swim home on a sunny day. 

But... However, the OP says he has a Catalina 27. I don’t want a beginner in a 27 foot, 7000 pound keelboat anywhere near me or my boat or anybody else, unless there is somebody coaching him. He could cause injury or extensive damage. 

Negligent endangerment -- penalty. (1) A person who negligently engages in conduct that creates a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury to another commits the offense of negligent endangerment.


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## Attikos (May 26, 2018)

I think that in the end everyone learns to sail by going out on his own and sailing. Instruction can certainly cut the timeline, and perhaps it makes it somewhat safer, but you still won't know the ropes (so to speak) until you're out there handling them with no one telling you how.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

The question seems to be about the size of the boat.

We learn to drive by walking, then bicyling, and perhaps eventually driving a semi-trailer or race car. I can't imagine that a sailor would not take the same path (dinghy, daysailor, cruising boat, with performance boats starting small if that is their leaning). We need a coach to make the jump from bicycle to car, because the change is so great. Going straight from walking to semi-trailor or race care would be insane.

An thus a sailor jumping straight into a larger cruising boat is potentially a menace in the marina and potentially a hazard to himself on open water, particularly if the wind comes up. More importantly, he may never understand forces that are taught by the dinghy in the first week. I see many large boat sailors that will never understand heavy weather. I firmly believe the best classroom for that is a dinghy in a small craft advisory followed by a dinghy in a strong squall. The first teaches balance, the latter teaches humility.

I wish people would start at the beginning, teacher or not.


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