# Purchase an ex charter boat



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I never really gave it much thought before figuring they would be all used up and beat to death.

The guy I just helped move his boat however was not so negative.
He said that the first tier guys had so many boats that they sold them after about 3-4 years at very good prices.

His idea was that the sails and cushions would have to be replaced but that the rest of the boat was very well maintained.

His source was watching the charters boats the last two years while he was in the islands.

My thinking is that even if he is right any money you save up front would be lost and then some on the sale.

I know one guy who did very well on an ex charter boat but he bought it from the bank so he got it for a lot less than getting it from the charter broker.

Do you know of anyone making out well on purchasing an ex charter boat?


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

davidpm said:


> Do you know of anyone making out well on purchasing an ex charter boat?


Yes. It does happen - but you need to know the area it's been sailed in (ie. how many hazards exist within the charter boundary and what to look for if they've hit one and not said anything) and the reputation of the charter company on maintenance.

Charter boats have also often been slightly modified for survey - such modifications not always to everyone's liking, so there are costs involved to convert back.. otherwise, he's correct.

If you do your homework it's a good way to get a newish luxury yacht for less money than you would pay otherwise for the same boat. 

(Disclaimer: I don't own a plastic boat, nor do I like very many of the current charter offerings..)


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## Jabberwock (Sep 24, 2013)

I know a guy whose mother knows a guy who bought one . We went sailing with him in the San Francisco bay one day and he seemed to like his boat. In fact it doubled for his house. I don’t even remember what she was, but it stated with an M, was a center cockpit, was a ketch and was 50 feet long. There were a few things on this boat that annoyed me a lot. First off it didn’t go to wind hardly at all. This might have been due to old sails but the end result was with the current in the bay and the boat not pointing well we ended up changing our plans. Second I discovered I hated the fact that the main winches were behind me and every time I needed do something with them I had to twist around then look back the other way at the same time. Then there was of course one more sail to deal with. I suppose all these things are less of an annoyance if you are going long distances but I wouldn’t know about that. 

This guy was experienced. He had a 100 ton captain’s license (or some such) but even he seemed apprehensive that day. He hadn’t taken the boat out in over a year. He warned us that should the boat look like it was going to hit to dock do not try to push off because it could crush us easily. I imagine that was good advice. In any case that pretty much convinced me that I don’t want to own a big heavy boat.


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## LaurenceU (Mar 7, 2011)

I bought a share in a Bavaria Match 42 which used to be in charter in Croatia. If you'd have asked 6 months ago I'd have said I dont want a share boat and wouldn't be interested in an ex charter vessel. However I was just trawling through for sale listings online and this opportunity attracted me. I met the owner and agreed to take 25% share sight unseen. The yacht is in excellent condition and I have absolutely no regrets. Sailed last northern summer from Crete up to Split and then back down to Dubrovnik where I've her now for the winter.
While cruising in Greece, met a young Australian guy who also had a Match 42 which he had also bought from the same Croatian charter company. His yacht was a bit tired but still not bad condition. He was heading west with plans to go the long way back to Australia. Completely happy with his purchase. Maybe there are some regretful tales out there - but not from me


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

davidpm said:


> Do you know of anyone making out well on purchasing an ex charter boat?


I've circumnavigated on mine.

They are great. No one has ever got on my boat and said: "oh, I see its an ex-charter boat".

The sails were fine, the genoa lasted the whole circ, the main 20,000nms; engine never had a problem; had to change the O rings in the jabsco toilets...

Mark


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm pretty against ex-charter boats mostly because of the altered layouts (crammed full of cabins and heads). Not to mention the cost of replacing pumps, hoses, cushions/soft goods, etc. However, due to the global recession, it seems like the charter boats coming out of service in 2013/2014/2015 tend to have *HALF* the engine hours that most boats in charter have. Im seeing hours in the 2500 range rather than the 5000 range.

Makes me think they might be an ok deal for someone willing to DIY the soft-goods stuff. I also hate how most charter boats put a large bimini instead of a proper bimini/dodger combo.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Xanshin has bought one or two from charter, he has had no issues with doing so. I know of two others that have also bought ex charter boats locally, again, no issues. 

At the end of the day, probably depends upon who you buy from etc. BUT< any time you buy USED, be it a charter or individual, you never know how it has been maintained. One may very well find, the charter was maintained better than the individual!

Marty


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I dont usually answer these type questions fully as they are normally started by polmics who hate Beneteaus, hate charter companies, hate charterers and think the only thing that should be allowed on water is a 27 foot wooden boat with tiller.

But as its David....

First off let me say most people on internet forums hate Beneteaus, hate charter companies, hate charterers and think the only thing that should be allowed on water is a 27 foot wooden boat with tiller.

I bought mine in 2008 after traveling the east coast of the USA extensively looking for long range cruising.
At the time I had $105,000
I found no one in the USA would negotiate at all, some put their price up as soon as they heard an Australian was in town.

I put in two offers on Beneteau 361's (36 foot.) One was offered at $112,000 and I offered my $105,000 and was rejected.
When in Florida I went to the Moorings Brokerage and met a broker who had some 361's in the Caribbean and some 393's (39 feet). There was a 393 at $115,000 in St Martin.
I went there and saw all the boats but the 393 was much better than the rest, better than the owner owned USA 361's.
Moorings took the $105,000 offer and I got a surveyor who obviously had surveyed MANY Beneteaus. He would tell me what he was looking for and then lift the cover and show me if it had 'it' or not.

I wanted to make sure it had never had a hard grounding and that a surveyor can tell from inside the bilge fore and aft the keel.

*Point 1: I got a 39 footer for less than a 36 footer.*

I closed the deal, threw my stuff onboard and sailed around the world with no damage, nothing falling off, nothing breaking until 100nms before the end of my circumnavigation when I broke the forestay but was able to motor sail to my intended port. I had already scheduled a rigging change for the end of my circumnavigation so the rigging was in the forefront of my mind. I did not have the budget to do it before, but I think if I did have the budget I would have done the rigging 10,000 miles before I did, vis a vie, 20,000nms after I bought the boat.

The Pacific was a good example where all I broke was one split pin in 6,500nms.

When I Thailand I had Rolly Tasker make me a new mainsail but I didnt put it on thill I reached Turkey.
The Genoa I finaly swapped for another second hand one earlier this year so it had done about 36,000nms after I had bought the boat. The sail was probably original to the boat.

*Point 2 Nothing much went wring with my boat through a whole circumnavigation.*

Yanamar tells me the 4JH3E will be good for 20,000 to 25,000 hours. Internet forums say they are good for about half an hour, less if on a chartered boat. My engine had 3490 hours on it and all I did on the circumnavigation was keep the oil up to it and do the impellors. In November last year after 33,000 nms I changed the heat exchanger.

My hours are now 2785 hours + the original 3490 = 6,275 hours and it starts first time every time, no smoke, no oil use etc.

*Point 3 Yanmar Engines do more hours than you think.*

"Charter wrecks boats" there are a few bumps and scratches where people have dropped stuff, maybe the winch handle a few times in an unfamiliar cockpit... theres a bump below I wondered how the hell they did... but I have forgotten where it is! There was some hair line varnish scratches ( and the advice is do NOT sand back, just use the finest art brust to in-fill)
Apart from that they are exactly like any other owner-owned boat of the same age.
I have seen some pristine boats in my travels but they are from a zealous maintainer... I am not, I am a traveller so the highest levels of aesthetic boat maintenance doesn't bother me.

*Point 4 Ex-charter boars are not wrecked.*

As I am not a boat yard boy or an intense maintainer it would be stupid for me to ever buy a project boat. My idea is to get a low maintenance, good sailing, affordable boat that thats a liquid market for resale.
This boat fit very well into my overall assessment of annual cruising costs and the investments needed to fund those costs.
Ex-charter meant I could have a large boat that only represents a small fraction of my overall assets.
Other people do their sums in a different way, but mine work for me and I can do this till I die or sink the boat. 
*Point 5 Low investment to asset ratio*

Moorings/Sunsail/TUI maintenance is deplored by those who don't know anything about it. They think TUI never maintains the charter boats. Quite simple its in their financial interest to maintain the boats: the average price of charter per week is about $5,000 for my boat. If it can't go out TUI loses $5,000 for that week and every week its unavailable. So its far better to spend a few hours of full time staff mechanics time than to lose $5,000.
Anytime I am near a Moorings/Sunsail/TUI base and I have a problem or question I find the fleet managers are very, very, VERY helpful. If theres a problem they have seen it and they know the best, simplest, cheapest solution.

*Point 6 I found TUI/Sunsail/Moorings maintains the boats well.*

Often its said that a boat ex-charter needs to be 'refitted' before it can sail away. Well thats bullsh!t. They have been doing week long charters for years and any boat that can sail off for a week independently doesnt need to be re-fitted.
All I put on mine was clothes, a dinghy and a girlfriend.
In Thailand we had new saloon covers as the blue valour Sunsail fabrics are a bit harsh on the eyes. Moorings have white vinyl thats OK but I would change that too, but they are only aesthetics.
I bought a new oven after 25,000nms.
I have a 2 inch foam 'topper' on my forward cabin mattress.
All the below bits are fine.
Mine is a 2 cabin version that I like better than 3 cabins as there is more storage space in an outside lazarette.
Some of the bigger boats have 5 cabins. If that doesnt suit you don't buy the f'ing boat! Its not Beneteaus fault or the charter companies. No one is forcing you to want one. 
I saw an owner-owned boat where one head was removed and the whole bathroom was made into a pantry. Great creative use of space.

*Point 7 Re-fit not needed.*

Thats about all I can think of..... ummmmm..... If theres something else I'll put it up.

In General: buting a ex-charter boat is the same as buying any second hand/used boat: Its NOT NEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



****Please don't think that over 5 years nothing has gone wrong, norhting has been changed or upgraded. On any second hand boat 5 years is a long time. It is an ongoinig maintenance thing like all boats. **** 









The old Sunsail Salon colours









What we did in Thailand


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

I have not considered a chartered boat for purchase, but did recently return from Croatia which is full of them. I wonder if it is like buying a rental car, more miles, but with better regular maintenance. The boats in Crotia seem to be in good shape overall. One factor as a plus is reduced engine hours, I was told locally that fuel has become so expensive that people sail whenver possible, something I saw first hand. The added use on the sails is the downside, but even people who charter newer boats comment on poor sails so replacing them seems typical.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

If you want to see one close to you, see this one:
McMichael Yacht Brokers and Yacht Yard - Our Yacht Listings

It was listed on the moorings site in the spring. I have no idea how it ended up at McMichaels.

Barry



davidpm said:


> I never really gave it much thought before figuring they would be all used up and beat to death.
> 
> The guy I just helped move his boat however was not so negative.
> He said that the first tier guys had so many boats that they sold them after about 3-4 years at very good prices.
> ...


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I have seen a few Moorings boats as they come out of charter and I would be happy buying one of those.

A boat that comes out a third tier charter company will be an altogether different story.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Mark - can you comment on your layout? From what it seems in your pictures, the 393 you have is *NOT* the standard charter configuration with the longitudinal galley.  You look like you have the "owners edition" which is the 2 cabin model rather than 3 cabin.

My opposition to charters is mostly due to the fact that they cram in the cabins and heads into the boat. For example, I own a 343 2 cabin model. The same boat in charter (named the Beneteau 350) is 3 cabins with a very small head. Thats a lot to cram into a 34/35 foot boat.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

night0wl said:


> Mark - can you comment on your layout? From what it seems in your pictures, the 393 you have is *NOT* the standard charter configuration with the longitudinal galley. You look like you have the "owners edition" which is the 2 cabin model rather than 3 cabin.
> 
> My opposition to charters is mostly due to the fact that they cram in the cabins and heads into the boat. For example, I own a 343 2 cabin model. The same boat in charter (named the Beneteau 350) is 3 cabins with a very small head. Thats a lot to cram into a 34/35 foot boat.


Then you don't have "opposition to charters" you have oposition to 3 cabin configurations in 35 footer. Or, 5 cabins in 50 footers.

Just go find a boat with the configuration you want.... and buy it. 

Mine is a 2 cabin version of the 393 and has the U galley








My layout. Where the other 393 layout is with 2 aft cabins and the longitudinal galley.

Remember a cabin can be converted from sleeping use to a store room, either temporaly or permanetly.

If I wanted a 50 footer with 5 cabins I would remove the partition in the forward cabin (yes, it can be done easily) and block one of the heads and remove the fittings and make storage.
I belive that one can NOT convert a 2 aft cabin configuration to 1 large aft cabin on the 393, 423 or 473 unless theres a fair bit of work.

I do agree with you that there won't be any 2 cabin 50 or 54 footers in charter fleets.... but thats what I would *love* for a single handing, or couples long range cruiser.

Below is some links to Sunsail where they show 36 footers, 38 and 393's in 2 cabin versions. So they are there.

Sunsail 38 - 2 Cabin Monohull Yacht | Sunsail USA
Sunsail Oceanis 393 - 2 Cabin Monohull Yacht | Sunsail USA
Sunsail 36i - 2 Cabin Monohull Yacht | Sunsail USA
Sunsail Oceanis 373 - 2 Cabin Monohull Yacht | Sunsail USA
Even a 41 footer in 2 cabins
Sunsail Odyssey 41 DS - 2 Cabin Monohull Yacht | Sunsail USA


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> All I put on mine was clothes, a dinghy and a girlfriend.


Well thanks for that complete answer.

Since it is a popular model it should be easy to sell also.

Sadly I can't do what you did because all I have is a wife.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

To be honest, I'm surprised that the charterers carry "owner edition" low cabin count models.


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

Mark, That's a beautiful boat, I love the layout.

You're my idol


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

night0wl said:


> To be honest, I'm surprised that the charterers carry "owner edition" low cabin count models.


Don't be. As long as it meets Survey requirements, charterers carry whatever the local market (and the boat's owners themselves) are asking for.

Very often charter yachts are purchased by people who simply can't otherwise afford to own a brand-new luxury yacht and see chartering as a good way to help pay for it and maintain it in the hope that, once it's paid its way, they can take it out of the charterer's hands and have it all to themselves - only to find out after a year or two that their lifestyle has changed and they need to sell it instead...

....to people like Mark.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

One can also charter multiple types and styles of yachts too. The Maltese falcon is charter able, IIRC at about 100K USD per week! includes crew etc too!

Even full bore 100' wally race boats are available to charter! for one race here and there. A local crew chartered a boat for cowes week in England. Long ways from Seattle mind you! Folks from across the globe can go to some World Sailing championships, and will charter/rent a 1d boat local from someone too! Lots of boats are available to charter for and in different reasons shapes and forms. Not all of them are cruise style boats! I'd bet one can get the QEII for a week if one really wanted it!

Marty


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

davidpm said:


> Since it is a popular model it should be easy to sell also.


Branding is important on the re-sale market. I was buying in the Caribbean with a view to selling in Australia. If its a brand nver heard of 'down under' it would be difficult to sell. But one where its known may sell at a premium.

Also the liquidity of the market is important. If 5 are sold per year in one country then to sell mine 'immediately' all I have to do is have the lowest price and it should be sold in 2 months.

Buying ex-charter isnt perfect. Perfect, for me, is buying brand new lickerty-split with all the options, air and fluffy dice. But if buying the reality has let me retire earlier and sail the world then, for me, it was the right thing to do.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> ..... I'd bet one can get the QEII for a week if one really wanted it!


Actually, no you couldn't.  

IIRC she's parked in Dubai awaiting an extensive dry-dock refit and refurbishment in China before becoming a floating hotel. One of many victims of SOLAS2010.

QE2 Cunard ms Queen Elizabeth 2 Ship Location, News, Dubai-SingaporeQueen Elizabeth Cruises


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Dang it, I have a big party for ALL the sailnet folks I know, I was going to rent her for a week to have the party on, well, I guess no party for sailnet folks! oh well.......

Maybe there is a QE3 or some other equal.......hmmmmmmm......... I really want to have this party, may be the only way to meet mr smackers, or hartley or ...........

Marty


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Been very happy with our 2000 Beneteau 505 that we bought 5 years ago. The original owner was Moorings (not someone else leasing to Moorings, apparently). The 2nd owner added a dodger and dinghy davits. We are the third. 

During the pre-purchase survey, the surveyor and I looked carefully for any hard landings against the dock, but everything looked fantastic. Basically, we know it was in the charter fleet and could focus the survey accordingly.

As Mark suggested, the wall between the two front staterooms was already removed when we bought her. And we use one of the heads as a closet. Been thinking about putting a washer/dryer combination unit in there instead. (At CruisingDad's suggestion, I bought a true sine wave inverter so it could run a washer while on the hook.)

Regards,
Brad


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Bene505 said:


> Been very happy with our 2000 Beneteau 505 that we bought 5 years ago. The original owner was Moorings (not someone else leasing to Moorings, apparently). The 2nd owner added a dodger and dinghy davits. We are the third.


Wow it has been five years already.
Yours was the only success story I knew about but now this thread a spotlighted several more.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

davidpm said:


> Yours was the only success story I knew about but now this thread a spotlighted several more.


Actually, David, there's probably more successes than failures I think you'll find.. Simply because people *know* it's a charter boat and thus know exactly what it has been used (or abused) for, where it has gone and how well (or otherwise) it's been looked after.

That isn't the case with your usual yacht purchase.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

My thought on charter boats, never having owned one, but worked on them when they were first bought from the charter companies, is that the regular maintenance was almost always up to snuff. Engine oil was changed, tranny oil was changed, electrical bugs fixed, ect... And often there were maintenance logs for all of it going back to break in, since the charter companies treat their boats like a long haul trucking company do. They are huge investments and maintenance needs to be done, and quality maintained.

What I tended to find in poor shape were the 'soft' systems. Sails were often in bad shape, lines were up for replacement, cushions were worn (generally the foam would be due for replacement), the interior wood was due for varnishing. Every boat was different, but generally there was never anything that would keep the boat from leaving the dock, but a lot of things showing wear. Some new owners wanted it all redone which could be expensive, others didn't care and just wanted a mechanical refresh.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Stumble said:


> others didn't care and just wanted a mechanical refresh.


What did the mechanical refresh entail?


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

davidpm said:


> What did the mechanical refresh entail?


The same thing most new owners want for a boat they just bought. Oil changes, tranny changes, steering cables checked, fuel polished, ect... Just the things that it's good to have a baseline on before starting your dream.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Stumble said:


> fuel polished, ect...


Most people here on the Long Island Sound do not polish their fuel.

Is it required for some reason in other places?


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

davidpm said:


> Most people here on the Long Island Sound do not polish their fuel.
> 
> Is it required for some reason in other places?


Probably because the fuel around here is of good quality. Otherwise we'd hear about polishing more.

When I used to fly airplanes a lot, I was surprised that the a fill-up at the Atlantic City airport resulted in a pint of water in the fuel tank -- enough to kill the engine right after take-off, a very bad thing. Found out later that because of their old, buried storage tank and a high water table, this was a common thing at that airport.

Regards,
Brad


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

My last fill up we took on 100 gallons of gas and 20 gallons of water and sludge. From the busiest fuel dock in the area. We got the last drop of fuel they had. It took a month, but they finally agreed to pay to have the fuel tanks drained, cleaned, and refilled. The only reason they agreed was we had the tanks polished two months before...

It's been a bad year for us and boat fuel.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Classic30 said:


> what to look for if they've hit one
> 
> Charter boats have also often been slightly modified for survey - such modifications not always to everyone's liking, so there are costs involved to convert back.. otherwise, he's correct.[/SIZE]


What damage do you specifically look for?

What kind of modifications are you referring to?


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

davidpm said:


> What damage do you specifically look for?


Hull damage - particularly keel cracks - from hitting reefs and jetties rather harder than an owner would. Chafed rigging/sails.. Cosmetic gelcoat damage. That sort of thing.

Think "hire car" - only it's a boat.



davidpm said:


> What kind of modifications are you referring to?


Extra life-rings and life-ring mounts for starters (ugly!), dodgem-car style bumper strip around the full length of the hull.. but really anything in the boat that you don't particularly like.

..especially the kind that yell "I'm a charter boat!!" from the other side of the anchorage.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

WHo is to say an owner will not hit a rock, reef jetty etc as hard or harder than a charter person! I know a couple of times, I have hit the ground pretty rough! once hit a sand bar at 6 knots! 

The look while doing a survey to see if there is remnants of hitting something damage, fixes to the body etc. There was a pretty good collision a couple of years ago at a beer can race, There was about 10-20K per boat. One of the folks in that crash posts on here. Either a charter person or owner of a boat can cause damage to a boat. Some of the charter folks will charter in an area they do not keep there boat! Example, faster goes to the Caribbean, granted on a friends boat, but his boat is left here in the salish sea. I am sure others on here, leave their boats say in the northern clims, charter a boat south, or east or equal........ 

Marty


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