# Leave In or Drain The Pink Stuff?



## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

Winterizing the boat yesterday. Drained the water tanks and poured the Pink Anti-Freze in and pumped through the lines. What's the general consensus in leaving the stuff in the lines versus pumping it out of the lines and closing everything up and leaving the lines essentially unfilled except for residual pink anti-freeze?

DrB


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I always drain my lines and leave a faucet open.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

It's supposed to be left in over the winter. 

If you have an inboard, you also need to run it through the cooling water lines to displace the water there.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Don't think it matters either way, however, draining everything may help minimize the time and effort to re-commission in the spring. Hope you drained/bypassed the water heater in the process...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Leave it in and flush in the spring.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One reason to leave it in is if you get any condensation, particularly on boats stored outdoors in a sunny area, where the "greenhouse" effect of the shrink wrap can cause them to act as moisture traps, the pink stuff will prevent the condensation from freezing.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> One reason to leave it in is if you get any condensation, particularly on boats stored outdoors in a sunny area, where the "greenhouse" effect of the shrink wrap can cause them to act as moisture traps, the pink stuff will prevent the condensation from freezing.


Not to mention, leaving it in will prevent the growth of wierd green stuff..etc...


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## the1much (Oct 6, 2007)

im from maine originally,, we alwaYz left it in, rule of thumb, if it takes longer in the long run, its usually the right waY hehe


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I can not conceive of any boat making enough condensation within a hose to make it burst from freezing. It isn't going to happen.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

the1much said:


> im from maine originally,, we alwaYz left it in, rule of thumb, if it takes longer in the long run, its usually the right waY hehe


Ok, this isn't instant messenger here, we use proper capitalization and punctuallity on sailnet...we just don't spell so good...


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

Move to Texas. You can sail and not worry about frozen . . . anything . . . accept maybe adult beverages.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

It may not be enough to burst a hose, but it might be enough to damage a seacock. Just because the damage is relatively minor, doesn't mean it won't sink the boat with little warning come spring time. 


Freesail99 said:


> I can not conceive of any boat making enough condensation within a hose to make it burst from freezing. It isn't going to happen.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Still not sure how leaving it in really makes a difference in the amount of condensation which could form unless you leave the system charged throughout the winter which is an impracticality. Arguably, a partially full system (which is what you get by simply filling the lines) provides more water vapor to condense without significantly lowering the volume of free space available compared with an essentaily emply system. The engineer in me working over-the-top here...
Even if condensation formed, it would be insufficient to fill the lines to the point that freezing could damage anything.
Guess I have too much free time.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> It may not be enough to burst a hose, but it might be enough to damage a seacock. Just because the damage is relatively minor, doesn't mean it won't sink the boat with little warning come spring time.QUOTE]
> 
> If it is cold enough to freeze there is a 90% chance that the boat isn't even in the water. In New Jersey that number is maybe 99% chance of the boat not being wintered in the water. If the boat is in the water in the winter, it is most likely being lived on and heated. So there should be no chance of sinking a boat. In addiction I still have a hard time conceiving of even a 2 ft hose filling with enough condensation to burst a hose or a seacock.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

retclt said:


> Move to Texas. You can sail and not worry about frozen . . . anything . . ..


been there....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

wellll....if all else fails, read what it says on the container...I'm sure it mentions whether to leave it in or not.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

USCGRET1990 said:


> wellll....if all else fails, read what it says on the container...I'm sure it mentions whether to leave it in or not.


Not always obvious if the container directions are written by engineers or lawyers - the distinction can be important.

Given this stuff expands as temp decreases, it occurs to me a full system can be more problemmatic for that reason alone


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

k1vsk said:


> Not always obvious if the container directions are written by engineers or lawyers - the distinction can be important.
> 
> Given this stuff expands as temp decreases, it occurs to me a full system can be more problemmatic for that reason alone


....huh???????????????????


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

DrB said:


> Winterizing the boat yesterday. Drained the water tanks and poured the Pink Anti-Freze in and pumped through the lines. What's the general consensus in leaving the stuff in the lines versus pumping it out of the lines and closing everything up and leaving the lines essentially unfilled except for residual pink anti-freeze?
> 
> DrB


Google: Fresh Water Antifreeze/Potable water antifreeze/Marine & RV antifreeze..etc. lots of info...


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

USCGRET1990 said:


> ....huh???????????????????


apparently something I said? 
can you be a little more specific


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

I would not worry too much about condensation in the lines. Condensation caused by shrink wrap is why I hate shrink wrap. Replaced floorboards in some boats caused by poor shrink wrap jobs, and seen too many instances of mold on shrink wrapped boats. It does create a greenhouse, and venting only sometimes works.

As for draining and red pop, I use the same system that our charter fleet does, because it has worked for them for years without frozen lines.

Drain the tanks into the bilge or run the pump if you want. Get the water out of the tanks.I do not put red pop in the tanks as they drain fine with the line to the pump disconnected. I then disconnect the line to the pump, put a new hose on it, drop the end of this short hose into the red pop bottle, and pump away. Once it is primed it goes into the system ( hot water tank bypassed) and I open one faucet at a time until red pop flows. Close that faucet and open it's counterpart. Work through all faucets in this manner. Don't forget the swim shower or anchor wash down if you have them. After one and a half bottles of red pop the system is full of red pop. Turn off the pump and leave it. I reconnect the tank line in the spring and leave the lines charged. Obviously, it will not still be charged in the spring, my system is pretty good at holding pressure, but not that good.

As to seacocks freezing......they won't because they are ALL open for the duration. Splash the third week of April, water temp then about 46 degrees. DO NOT FALL IN!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

k1vsk said:


> Given this stuff expands as temp decreases, it occurs to me a full system can be more problemmatic for that reason alone


That's incorrect .


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## vabuckeye (Apr 30, 2007)

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/winter/default.asp

This doesn't answer all of the question, but is worth the read.


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

OH, and the second half of the second bottle is used for the head. Take off the inlet hose, put the short hose on it, prime and pump through the head. Water out, red pop in, head pump is safe.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

What I do is drain all the water from the 140 gal tank (gravity drains on all sinks) and all fresh and seawater pressurized supply lines. In my case, three sinks with taps, two saltwater deck bibbs and two interior saltwater faucets. The 2 Par pumps are the belt-driven diaphram type and pump themselves dry.

I then disconnect the water lines from the Par pump outlets, open every faucet on the boat and blow all water residue out with an electric compressor. I've also used a nozzle valve attached to a scuba tank, which works equally well.

The water heater is a propane, on-demand type, so no tank. The unit's manifold is drained and drain plug removed prior to blowing out the lines. 

All my prior boats had impeller pumps and electric/engine heated hot water tanks. The pink stuff was pumped through after bypassing the drained water heater - left in through-out the winter and drained in the Spring. I really hated using that stuff.

This will be the 4th winterization on this boat, using the compressor method and never had any problems. No chemicals are needed, other than shocking the system with a bleach solution during recommissioning.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

CapnHand said:


> That's incorrect .


The above link describes the thermal expansion of glycol solutions as follows:

"Coefficient of Thermal Expansion
Since most applications of brine solutions involve small to moderate temperature variations, *it is necessary to provide some expansion volume to absorb the expansion*...due to temperature variations..." and goes on the provide the thermodynamic equation to calculate expansion coefficients.

As you can see from the graphs or an understanding of the equations, glycol DOES expand with decrease in temperature.

The issue becomes moot unless you leave the system charged; simply filling it doesn't do that. As long as you relieve the pressure, expansion is possible but I don't know why it would be worth the chance.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

k1vsk said:


> Given this stuff expands as temp decreases, it occurs to me a full system can be more problemmatic for that reason alone


k1vsk, you started out wrong and now you're going deeper

a) "this stuff" is propylene glycol, aka propane-1, 2,-diol, aka methyl ethylene glycol (C3H8O2)
b)The density of propylene glycol (in Fig 7 of the reference I provided), increases as temperature decreases meaning that the volume decreases as temperature decreases. It does not expand as temperature decreases as you stated above.
c)The coefficient of thermal expansion (cet) is positive over the entire temperature range (Fig 12). 
dV/Vo = cet * dT/To
As the temperature decreases, the volume of propylene glycol decreases. It does not expand as temperature decreases as you stated above.

There are no problems caused by propylene glycol expanding as temperature decreases, since it doesn't do that.

If you are an engineer, or studying to be one, I am sure there are many things that you know. My advice is that you should stick to writing about those. Otherwise, people may follow poor advice.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

CapnHand said:


> k1vsk, you started out wrong and now you're going deeper
> 
> There are no problems caused by propylene glycol expanding as temperature decreases, since it doesn't do that.
> 
> If you are an engineer, or studying to be one, I am sure there are many things that you know. My advice is that you should stick to writing about those. Otherwise, people may follow poor advice.


Sarcasm isn't needed or appreciated. I won't argue the point as I'm sure practically no one else cares, however, I don't plan to argue credentials or debate the reference you attached which you might read again.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

k1vsk said:


> Sarcasm isn't needed or appreciated. I won't argue the point as I'm sure practically no one else cares, however, I don't plan to argue credentials or debate the reference you attached which you might read again.


 There was no humour in my post. I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, sorry you took it that way.

That's disappointing. I'm a salesman, in Canada. I leave the antifreeze in all my fresh water lines, cooling water lines, flush it through the head pour some through the sinks and into the bilge. I've read the reference mat'l that was quoted again, as you suggested, but I still think I'm interpreting the information correctly. If I've made mistakes there, why won't you point them out, for my benefit and others who might read this? I don't mind admitting if I've made a mistake. I wouldn't want to be doing something wrong when winterizing my boat or giving information that might cause others to.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Expansion/Contraction of Glycol*

Okay, I prefrace my response with the fact that I have a BS and PhD in Chemistry and Material Eng.

There seems to be confusion on the expansion versus temp of glycol as the temperature changes. The coef. of thermal expansion measures the change in dimension/dimension of a material. It is a dimensionless number. for example a CvT = change in volume/volume-K or change in volme/volume per degree kelvin.

For a given composition (50:50, 70:30, 30:70, etc.) of Glycol/Water, the expansion cofficient goes down with temperature. However, at the phase change (freezing into a solid) the solid has a higher volume than the liquid, so it expands. Obviously not what we want.

If you change the amount of glycol in the mix, the thermal exp. coef. changes; more glycol, a higher expansion coeff., less glycol, lower. Also, if the temperature changes, the expans. coeff. changes. Cooler temps mean lower expansion coeff.

For your temp climate, you need to choose the lowest temp that you think will occur (and then go 20 deg colder) and mix your water/glycol mixture for it.

The statement about allowing some room for the glycol/water solution to expand, in the cited reference by k1vsk, is due to the fact that the day you fill the tank may be 40 deg F and the next day 80 deg F. If you top it off at 40, there is no room for the expanded material to go at 80. If you fill at say 80 and the temp drops to say 30, the liquid will contract and you may be lower than the amount you need to effectively work until the liquid warms up. This is why they have a overflow reservior with your engine that has a high/low fill line. The reservior allows for the expansion volume while providing enough material for proper levels if the engine is cold until it warms up.

DrB

EDIT - Thanks for all of the responses to my OP. I'll leave the Pink in.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Vodka*

I haven't tried this myself but a friend at the marina says he uses vodka instead of the red stuff. Sounds like it may be expensive but in the spring you don't have to flush all the lines just bring some olives and have a martini party.


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## jldooley (Aug 1, 2007)

Vodka,
the underated ultimate cure all. 
This would give you several advantages: 1. & 2. extra help when you need it most, decommisioning, recommissioning; 3.use as an antifreze, 4. good time for all as the crew will remember the vodka and not the labor prior
fantistic idea thanks for the


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The only problem I see with using vodka is that it is flammable and may attack the seals and gaskets in the system.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*No Chemical Reason Why That Would Happen*

The alcohol in vodka is ethanol (ethyl alcohol). The Pink Anti-freeze has ethanol in it also. If the Pink Stuff works and doesn't harm seals, vodka won't harm seals also. However, Vodka is a lot more expensive/gallon than the Pink stuff.

DrB


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## dave6330 (Aug 16, 2006)

We just finished up winterizing (?) our 36 foot sloop in Seward, Alaska this weekend and we always leave the pink stuff in the lines and flush out after breakup. 

This year I also tried something new...I unhooked the head inlet hose from the seacock, flushed out all the seawater from the head inlet and refastened the hose to the seacock with the two hose clamps. (A couple of years back the back of the head froze and cracked the plastic, forcing me to replace the head.)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Checked the MSDS for four different brands of antifreeze, and none have Ethanol as an ingredient. I don't know what brand you're using or where you got your information, but I believe it is wrong.



DrB said:


> The alcohol in vodka is ethanol (ethyl alcohol). The Pink Anti-freeze has ethanol in it also. If the Pink Stuff works and doesn't harm seals, vodka won't harm seals also. However, Vodka is a lot more expensive/gallon than the Pink stuff.
> 
> DrB


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

HAHAHAHAHAH.... wait, what was the original question again??? SOmetimes I skip over threads I should not.

Leave it in. Wasn't that the question? Does not taste good though. Thus pump it out at the end. However, if vodka, leave it in. However, if ethanol is bad, pump it out (just call CD first... I will do it for you for free).

HEHEHEHE! Ohh, only on sailnet will we go 4000 pages to decide whether to leave it in or pump it out. THe Sea Ray guys are going to be laughing at us...

- CD


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> Checked the MSDS for four different brands of antifreeze, and none have Ethanol as an ingredient.


 Some brands have ethanol http://www.southwinltd.com/Northwin/nontoxic.htm

BTW, Not all ingredients are on an MSDS. MSDS only has to list hazardous ingredients as defined by OSHA (US), WHMIS (Canada), etc.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I got here late. Are we still pumping the pink stuff? (g)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Checked the MSDS for four different brands of antifreeze, and none have Ethanol as an ingredient. I don't know what brand you're using or where you got your information, but I believe it is wrong.


 Damn - wisht I'd read that before I mixed up the first batch of drinks !!!  Just wasted a huge amount of ice and grenadine...


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> I got here late. Are we still pumping the pink stuff? (g)


Not unless I get off this damn computer.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*For Sailingdog*

The brand that I used is called Arctic Ban. Bought at Ace/TrueValue. Says it contains Ethyl Alcohol. I am not familiar with other brands, so that was what my response to your post re: vodka/ethanol was based on.

DrB


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