# MaineSail's Boat vs. Your Boat



## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Okay, I've been a member of this forum long enough to have read plenty of MaineSail's posts, and I've used his advice for compounding & polish, batteries, mounting hardware, and more. 

According to his profile, he sails a CS36, and I'm trying to imagine how ship-shape his vessel is. 

I'm guessing:
-he has the appropriate batteries oriented in the proper direction, with a well thought out charging system

-His wiring is all crimped, logical, and up to standards.

-his deck hardware is properly mounted and doesn't leak

-his seacocks are all properly backed, installed, and are working freely.

-his engine is lubed, filtered, cooled, and aligned to perfection. 

-in short, all systems serviced, adjusted, and up to spec. 

So, if you're familiar with MaineSail's posts and his how-to site, rate your
vessel on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being Captain Ron's boat and 10 being MS's boat. Be honest. And feel free to include excuses. 

Personally, mine's a 4. 
My excuse: I've had my 1996 Catalina 28 for a year. I've made a lot of progress, but still so much to do to get into "10" territory.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Mine is probably a 4 or 5 compared to his.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

I'm not gonna try and compare my boat to the guru's. Even if my boat is an 8 by most standards, he appears to take it off the charts.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'm with Rob....


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I'm not sure what the point of this is?


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## mikel1 (Oct 19, 2008)

3.5


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

9.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

+11. Hey, my boat is better than his... :grin


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## Pegu club (Jun 10, 2012)

All I know is that he would likely cringe watching me bed with butyl 😄
But I am trying to do it the mainsail way....


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

OK Mainsail … probably he's so busy that his own boat is BADLY in need of maintenance!!!


OK - just joking!! :devil :cut_out_animated_em :boat : :eek


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

< 9000


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Has anyone here from this forum ever been on his boat? That would be the only confirmation rather than all the rhetoric about how one's boat should be? I mean give me a break... a lot of 'cut and paste' answers from the web is all good advice but really???

Mine is of course an 8+... :boat :


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Scotty C-M said:


> OK Mainsail &#8230; probably he's so busy that his own boat is BADLY in need of maintenance!!!
> 
> OK - just joking!! :devil :cut_out_animated_em :boat : :eek


Like the master Porsche mechanic who drives a K car with coat hanger and tin can exhaust.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

RobGallagher said:


> Like the master Porsche mechanic who drives a K car with coat hanger and tin can exhaust.


Well.. if it works...


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Guys ever hear the expression 
"The carpenter's house is never done."

I am going to guess his boat is done right but he could also be too busy to make his boat as pretty as his paying customer's boats.

The systems on my boat look more like the "before" pictures. Some parts becoming the "after" photos.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

guitarguy56 said:


> Has anyone here from this forum ever been on his boat? That would be the only confirmation rather than all the rhetoric about how one's boat should be? I mean give me a break... a lot of 'cut and paste' answers from the web is all good advice but really???
> 
> Mine is of course an 8+... :boat :


Pretty harsh, I haven't seen anybody else arrange anything near the tutorials he has. I bow to the organized..


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

DRFerron said:


> I'm not sure what the point of this is?


I'm a 6 this year and a 7 next. That's the point. Maybe after that I'm an 8. Hey you're only competing with yourself right.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

albrazzi said:


> Pretty harsh, I haven't seen anybody else arrange anything near the tutorials he has. I bow to the organized..


Harsh?.... You know not of what you talk about! I've been to MaineSail's website and consider it a valuable tool for those looking for great info and how to's... The comment was meant for others who post cut and paste from other websites and don't have their boats up to snuff!

Still... Who here has been on MaineSail's boat to confirm his boat is up to the standards as OP has questioned? You?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I think the point is that a 10 is complete perfection in every way. Beyond that which any OEM even provides when new. Whether Maine's boat qualifies or not, may not matter. 

I propose that no boat is a 10, under this definition. I even bet that MS has an idea or two that he would improve on his own boat. 

I think I typically keep my boat in the 8 range, but could quickly make her 9, as most reductions are cosmetic (decks, stainless polish, etc). There are no 10s.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

2.5 or less. I'm more a 'Larry the Cable Guy' kind of a sailor.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> I think the point is that a 10 is complete perfection in every way. Beyond that which any OEM even provides when new. Whether Maine's boat qualifies or not, may not matter.
> 
> I propose that no boat is a 10, under this definition. I even bet that MS has an idea or two that he would improve on his own boat.
> 
> I think I typically keep my boat in the 8 range, but could quickly make her 9, as most reductions are cosmetic (decks, stainless polish, etc). There are no 10s.


Agree and I'm willing to bet 95% of our boats here are in the 5-8 range with a small minority of newer boats in the 8-9.5 range... but all our boats could use an improvement either mechanically/electrically or cosmetic or improvement in ergonomics one way or another... something maybe the manufacturer missed?

I just had every spider crack on my deck removed/covered with primer and ready for final paint with poly... is it perfect... NO... is it to my satisfaction... YES... to MaineSail's satisfaction maybe not... I just installed new VHF radios and stereo and although MaineSail has a great tutorial on installing a small cabinet for the stereo radio I did something different... point is what may be an 8/9 for someone may be a 5/6 for others... Not everyone's electrical panel needs to be wired with immaculate beauty as long as it is logical and can be traced and worked on without great difficulty and for other potential buyers to understand.

I believe we all could use some improvements on our boats... time and money seems to be the biggest obstacles.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> I think the point is that a 10 is complete perfection in every way. Beyond that which any OEM even provides when new. Whether Maine's boat qualifies or not, may not matter.
> 
> I propose that no boat is a 10, under this definition. I even bet that MS has an idea or two that he would improve on his own boat.
> 
> I think I typically keep my boat in the 8 range, but could quickly make her 9, as most reductions are cosmetic (decks, stainless polish, etc). There are no 10s.


OK so I guess I'm a 5 looking for a 6 if that's the scale.:laugh


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

I don't know where my boats lie on the spectrum, but we try. We've learned over 40 years of this that doing it right once saves so much aggravation, that long term it's worth it. 

I've found Maine's free advice to be invaluable. What an excellent service to this community to have someone who's working with complicated boat systems every day, sharing his experiences on what works and what doesn't. 

Free advice is usually worth what you paid for it. 

Mainsail is the exception to that rule.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Siamese said:


> Okay, I've been a member of this forum long enough to have read plenty of MaineSail's posts, and I've used his advice for compounding & polish, batteries, mounting hardware, and more.
> 
> According to his profile, he sails a CS36, and I'm trying to imagine how ship-shape his vessel is.


Unfortunately my boat is not a Bo Derek but probably a solid 6.5-7.. I still have a few projects to complete, biggest being the decks, before she is really where I want her...

But now I suppose I have to live up to all this hype...?:wink



Siamese said:


> I'm guessing:
> -he has the appropriate batteries oriented in the proper direction, with a well thought out charging system


I don't use lead acid batteries except for my reserve bank which is a Firefly AGM and it can be oriented any way I need.. My house bank is a custom built LiFePO4...

LiFePO4 House Bank:











Siamese said:


> -His wiring is all crimped, logical, and up to standards.


Yep I crimp to Mil-Spec and am an ABYC marine electrician so my electrical system is pretty solid often exceeding ABYC standards. All the marginal factory wiring was removed and the entire vessel re-wired.

This was taken during the re-wire and is the AC/DC back plane while under construction...









AC/DC panel swing door and Blue Sea panel during wiring re-fit..











Siamese said:


> -his deck hardware is properly mounted and doesn't leak


The boat has zero leaks.. Even in the torrential rains we had a few weeks ago, that caused serious flooding in Portland, the bilge remained bone dry other than our dedicated mast base sump which does not have access to the main bilge sump, unless it were to over flow, which it never has.... I am allergic to mold so leaks are not an option..

Since this pic was taken the horrendous pos _Cozy Cabin Heater_ has been yanked out and replaced with a forced hot air diesel fired central heat system (Espar), the horrible sounding Bose speakers have been yanked & replaced and all lighting fixtures have been replaced with stainless. Even the throw rugs are different now... All the _nautical looking_ brass on the bulkhead has also been removed and the bulkhead stripped and refinished.

*It's a boat, it never stops....*:laugh:laugh











Siamese said:


> -his seacocks are all properly backed, installed, and are working freely.


The seacocks are all backed using solid fiberglass and are through bolted with bronze fasteners. All seacocks and fittings are 85-5-5-5 bronze, double clamped with AWAB 316 SS clamps and no more PVC hose connected below waterline..... The hull here is over 1/2" thick so it really did not even need backers, but they got the area parallel to the exterior. The backers are 5/8" thick and glassed in. After installation the area was re-gelcoated. This is a dedicated seacock locker with easy access and nothing is stowed in here. 











Siamese said:


> -his engine is lubed, filtered, cooled, and aligned to perfection.


One of my biggest peeves is drive-line vibration. Even at 3800+ hours the engine is pretty much spotless inside and out.

This was at approx 3000 hours. Only Rotella T 15W-40 has been used since the engine was new.. 









I believe in preventative and upkeep maintenance. This was a few years ago. Preventative damper plate, rebuilt starter, preventative rear main seal, all new hoses, strip and repaint much of the engine..









Boat engines don't need to be messy, rusty beasts..:wink











Siamese said:


> -in short, all systems serviced, adjusted, and up to spec.


More so than being up to spec I aim for a safe boat that is extremely reliable. I don't tolerate break downs in-season so I am to 100% prevent them....

Still she's not going to be an 8- 9 until a few more projects are complete, yet to see a perfect 10......:wink


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## mikel1 (Oct 19, 2008)

Ahh . . Yeah I'm thinking 10 . . And I've been to the Pebble Beach concours de elegance for cars . . I've seen attention to detail . . .


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> Still she's not going to be an 8- 9 until a few more projects are complete, yet to see a perfect 10...


Looks darned close to me. And here I was just starting to think that this could be a classic case of the cobbler's children going barefoot.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Remembering what the inside of my electrical panel looks like, I hang my head in shame and sob. It's like I'm living a Johnny Cash song.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Hey, if you guys all lived where the sailing season was only 3 months, and the other 9 months were spent on the hard, your boats would be a 10+ too.
Don't beat yourselves up.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Siamese said:


> -he has the appropriate batteries oriented in the proper direction, with a well thought out charging system


Uh, showing my ignorance. Which way are batteries supposed to be oriented?

I'm planning on moving mine over winter, I should probably figure that out.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Wet cell batteries should be oriented so as to minimize movement of the electrolyte when heeled : so the long axis of the battery should be athwartships.

If you orient them the other way, chances are part of the plates will be exposed when the boat is heeled.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Minnesail said:


> Uh, showing my ignorance. Which way are batteries supposed to be oriented?
> 
> I'm planning on moving mine over winter, I should probably figure that out.


*Installation & Orientation of Flooded Batteries*


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Maine Sail said:


> Unfortunately my boat is not a Bo Derek but probably a solid 6.5-7.. ......


Oh crap. The grading curve usually helps, why do I think the rest of us just failed.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

How many bonus points do I get for lots of nicely varnished brightwork?


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Maine Sail said:


> *Installation & Orientation of Flooded Batteries*


Thank you very much.

Things like this are probably not terribly important on my little lake-sailed boat, but I'm trying to learn to do things The Right Way so I'll have the knowledge and experience for my next boat.

(Also this messes up my plan for fitting my batteries under the v-berth. Back to the drawing board.)


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

This is the funniest thread ever on Sail net!

My boat is a 1 compared to his and many others but I have sailed the world where they have not.

I always appreciate Main Sails advice because it's the best but my budget, time and ability means I can not do it the way he does.

My boat is not like Captain Rons but at least he and I got somewhere. (That's not a missive at Main Sail either)

Very few can afford for their boat to be perfect when they head out... unfortunately those left behind on the dock will be professional fixer uppers not cruisers.

I prefer to have gone without the worlds best peacock etc. But I have gone 7 years. 7 years of wonderful life on the high seas.

Main Sail will always be brilliant but I will always have to do some compromise.




Mark


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Seacock not peacock.

Icant even edit posts on this stupid forum


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Mark, I think my peacocks are all marlon. Hope that's OK. My boat would be a 10 if we could turn off spellcheck.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct..._c3giuq5ta2Vt8eTOPhoxT2g&ust=1444854809713491


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Minnesail said:


> Uh, showing my ignorance. Which way are batteries supposed to be oriented?
> 
> I'm planning on moving mine over winter, I should probably figure that out.


They need to be oriented towards Mecca (East in my part of the world) or they'll explode.

MedSailor


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> They need to be oriented towards Mecca (East in my part of the world) or they'll explode.


Ignorant American. Just because my batteries wear turbans doesn't mean they're Muslim. I have Sikh batteries. That's why there's also a little dagger on the side of each one.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Maine Sail said:


> Still she's not going to be an 8- 9 until a few more projects are complete, yet to see a perfect 10......:wink


Very nice MaineSail... Attention to detail is what makes her eyecatching. Yes in our eyes her condition is 8-9. Thanks for the excellent how to's and general info you give out on your website and here as well.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

I don't want a 10.
I like buying a 4 and turning it into an 8. As a result I have sold every boat I've owned for much more than I bought them.
Having projects and making improvements is half the fun for me. It also helps me understand all the boat systems when something isn't working properly.
After 5 years the current CS is probably a 7 and will be an 8 after this winters projects. I"m so in tune w/ this boat and it's performance I doubt I will ever buy another.
Jim


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Interesting point about not wanting a 10. I toured the last Bristol ever made, when I was last in the market. It was a specimen. Beautiful. I think it was made for the owner of Bristol before they closed. Over the top woodwork, granite, remarkable. 

My wife and I both loved it, but had the same reaction. We would be afraid to sail her or have guests aboard. That would defeat the purpose.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Can a boat in the water ever really be a 10?


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

When I bought my boat it looked like a 1. Once I removed everything the PO had tied and taped on to it, it is a solid 3. Hopefully by Spring it will be a 5, which is probably how it will stay for a while. I don't care if it looks a little rough as long as everything is working efficiently.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

OH MY GOD!! Mainsail, I love you! Will you have my babies? wait a minute, I'm getting a little carried away here … OK, I'll try again …. OK Mainnie, the pictures show it. Yeah, you have about a gazillion + . OK, let me try again. Nice Pics, Mainsail. Glad to see you do a nice job on your BEAUTIFUL boat. (that's about as calm as I can get!

I work really hard on my boat. Because of family obligations and medical issues, I keep pretty close to the home port. So, I like to spend a lot of time working on my boat here in Santa Cruz. I thought I was doing pretty good, until I saw Mainsail practicing what he "preaches". (note: his advice is not preachy at all, just good suggestions offered in an easy to understand manner). I really would have thought of my boat as a 7 - maybe even an 8. After cooking at his pictures, I think I better take a more realistic assessment. Just for fun, I'll take similar pictures of my boat and post them so you can see that even with the best of intentions, I've got a ways to go.

PS. Thank you Mainsail for the great "How To" tips. I have your website bookmarked.

Scotty


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Don0190 said:


> Can a boat in the water ever really be a 10?


Yes if you are super meticulous, rich, cost is no object and you hire someone else to do all the work on the boat, but where's the fun in that.


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## socal c25 (Nov 1, 2013)

I am too damn busy sailing to make my boat as nice as.... well anybody else's boat. I maintain what needs maintained then go sailing. I am in So Cal, so year round sailing takes its toll in wearing out gear, sails, rigging, ground tackle, etc.... I'd like to have a pearl of a boat but its 46 years old and rarely is hauled out so some stuff get neglected, paint, new windows, accessories and stuff like that. My boat is seaworthy enough for trips to Catalina Island (25 Miles) and many coast wise trips. My boat is a Coronado 25 and sails almost every weekend and that is what matters. Rating it would be unfair.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

I think it is too simple to try and give a boat a single rating. I tend to think of it as three seperate numbers... Mechanical maintenance, sailing and rigging maintenance, and cosmetic maintenance. I shoot for a 9 in the first two, and a 5 at best for cosmetic... But then I tend to buy boats with as little wood and cosmetic bots as possible.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

One of my boats is in genuine factory condition. The other one, yeah, 40 years of POs, followed by me, it was pretty much doomed from the start.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

has his been in a monthly sailing rag?!?!?!?!?

mine

I prefer to sail them!

Marty


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

No they wouldn't. And I'm downgrading mine to a 3. Maybe a 2, but I like to think I'm better than a Larry the Cable Guy sort.


BubbleheadMd said:


> Hey, if you guys all lived where the sailing season was only 3 months, and the other 9 months were spent on the hard, your boats would be a 10+ too.
> Don't beat yourselves up.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> Can a boat in the water ever really be a 10?


Yup, with a professional full time crew and an owner that is trying to one up his rich buddies. Seen it.

Ironically, even those 10s don't look like 10s all the time. I happened to visit a buddies boat in Annapolis this past weekend, during the boat show. Tied up next to him was one of those kind of showboats. At least, I had seen her actually displayed in the boat show a couple of years earlier.

She was in the middle of some work, it seemed, and looked pretty tired. She goes back to Newport in the Spring to show off again.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

If "10" means gutting a 40+ year old boat to make every little thing ABYC compliant, I may never get there.

For example, I have tall standpipes for sink drains that do not have seacocks. They extend _above_ the static waterline. They are connected to the sinks with wire reinforced exhaust hose. I debated cutting them out and installing through-hulls and seacocks. I spoke to a friend who had started the same job. It took him days just to cut one of them out because they were laid up so well. He told me not to bother. I spoke to a surveyor who said "Well, they've been there for 40 years and the boat's still floating, right?" Actually, I spoke to THREE surveyors and only one said I should cut them out and replace them. One said do nothing, and one said I should carefully monitor them and the rubber hose and "replace if suspect."

The factory wiring for the 12v system has been unmolested for the boat's entire life. There are additions, but no hacks or splices anywhere in the boat's original 12v system.
The color code is out of date, and not compliant with today's codes. The wire is un-tinned, but is not corroded. The insulation not cracked or failing anywhere. The colors are still strong and easily identifiable. Should I rip it all out and start over, "just because"?

Anytime something needs to be replaced, it will be upgraded to code but I won't destroy safe, working systems just to check a box.
When I added 30 amp shore power to the boat, I installed it to code. I wish I'd known about the SmartPlug at the time, because now I have to upgrade to that.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Yup, with a professional full time crew and an owner that is trying to one up his rich buddies. Seen it.


I guess as a nice big yacht passed me a month ago and went I got to the marina that I was going to moor at that afternoon they were there and the paid crew was washing the boat from the days journey (I think we cleaned our boat also by taking the trash ashore).

But I was thinking that for people like us there's no 10 in the boat condition world (I still have things on my "to do" list from 5 years ago).


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Minnewaska said:


> Yup, with a professional full time crew and an owner that is trying to one up his rich buddies. Seen it.


This is probably the most beautiful powerboat around. When guys with lots of dough put it into restoring and keeping something like this in top shape you have to give them kudos.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

RobGallagher said:


> This is probably the most beautiful powerboat around. When guys with lots of dough put it into restoring and keeping something like this in top shape you have to give them kudos.


They chose that camera angle for a reason. There are 37 people furiously sanding and varnishing on the other side, just out of view.

MedSailor


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I've seen Aphrodite several times in and around Watch Hill RI. Truly spectacular. It is reported that 40,000 manhours were spent in completely rebuilding her.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The OP must be a dude who's never gone to a Spinal Tap concert.

Otherwise he'd have known, MaineSail would never stand for less than an _ELEVEN_.

Right, sure, like, a _ten_? Any boatyard can sell you a _ten_. Aim higher.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

hellosailor said:


> The OP must be a dude who's never gone to a Spinal Tap concert.
> 
> Otherwise he'd have known, MaineSail would never stand for less than an _ELEVEN_.
> 
> Right, sure, like, a _ten_? Any boatyard can sell you a _ten_. Aim higher.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

I see a lot of 10's in my harbor that has a custom boat builder. I don't think you can achieve '10' as an owner-there are too many skills that require years of practice to achieve '10' level maintenance in all areas.

Plus: I don't think you can achieve '10' unless your boat is inside stored. It's not possible to achieve the same results outside, no matter how well covered or skilled.

I would give my boat-owner maintained-outdoor stored- about a maintenance '6' with this being the '10' end of the scale.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

TomMaine said:


> I see a lot of 10's in my harbor that has a custom boat builder. I don't think you can achieve '10' as an owner-there are too many skills that require years of practice to achieve '10' level maintenance in all areas.
> 
> Plus: I don't think you can achieve '10' unless your boat is inside stored. It's not possible to achieve the same results outside, no matter how well covered or skilled.
> 
> I would give my boat-owner maintained-outdoor stored- about a maintenance '6' with this being the '10' end of the scale.


If yours is a 6, maybe I am closer to Larry the Cable guy than I'd like to admit.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I took a double take too, thinking that was Tom's boat he was rating a 6. Please tell me that was an example of a 10. Otherwise, I give up.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

For anyone with designs on ever owning a "10", I'd suggest you watch the movie again... The moral of that story, after all, is that attainment of such a lofty goal of perfection ain't what it's usually cracked up to be...

;-)

This magnificent Seguin 52 from Lyman Morse is probably the closest sailing yacht to a "10" that I've ever delivered... Sure, it was a nice ride, but I don't think I've _EVER_ been happier or more relieved to have a trip over, without putting a mark on the boat, than I was at the conclusion of that trip... ;-)










Launched to great fanfare about 10 years ago, prominently displayed at the Annapolis Show, this CRUISING WORLD Cover Girl and Yacht Style Feature subject is once again listed on Yachtworld for the _THIRD_ time since I sailed her for the gentleman who commissioned her...

2004 Lyman Morse Sparkman & Stephens Sloop Sail Boat For Sale -

Nope, these Bo Derek Boats often fail to deliver long term satisfaction even for those who can easily afford to maintain them... A little birdie in the brokerage business reckons this time around, she'll be lucky to fetch 30% of what it originally cost to build her...


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I'm with John. I don't want a 10 (boat. Not wife). In my fantasy world i have a boat that is 8-10 under the hood and 5-7 otherwise. I've been the guy that brings down thr rent at a fancy marina and I don't want to do that again, so I don't want a 3/10 again. I also don't want to worry about what kind of shoes my guests have. 

Cosmetic imperfections that can't be seen from more than 10ft away don't really exist.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

I figure if you can't shuck oysters on deck your'e a tad pretentious but I gotta draw the line at angle grinders.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Honestly, not to take anything at all away from Mainsail and his lovely work, but it does help to get everything wholesale and have winters off to work on your boat.
As a live aboard cruiser, it's incredibly hard to keep up with the maintenance and improve things as you go, especially at West Indies prices. Aesthetically we MIGHT make a 4 but functionally we're probably a high 6 to mid 7, depending on which end of a particular maintenance cycle we're on. For instance, we're going to need a new membrane for the watermaker, soon.
It's not like we can tear down our engine and paint it (we're painting it now for rust prevention, but in place and assembled) while we're out on the hook or rewire the whole boat when we use the majority of the systems daily. Would that we had the budget to put her at Mainsail's place for a few months while we toured China or Europe!
Honey, did you buy that lotto ticket this week?


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

MedSailor said:


> I'm with John. I don't want a 10 (boat. Not wife). In my fantasy world i have a boat that is 8-10 under the hood and 5-7 otherwise. I've been the guy that brings down thr rent at a fancy marina and I don't want to do that again, so I don't want a 3/10 again. I also don't want to worry about what kind of shoes my guests have.
> 
> Cosmetic imperfections that can't be seen from more than 10ft away don't really exist.


That reminds me of Colin Mudie's famous quote (to which I wholeheartedly subscribe):

_"One day I shall have two boats exactly the same. I shall sail in one and look back at the other to extract the last ounce of pleasure from my labour. And if it happens that I cannot have two lovely boats and become bitter, I shall sail around in the ugliest of boats I can find, looking at everyone else's nice boat, whilst they have to avert their gaze from mine." 
_

..and as a naval architect, he should know. :wink


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Classic30 said:


> That reminds me of Colin Mudie's famous quote (to which I wholeheartedly subscribe):
> 
> _"One day I shall have two boats exactly the same. I shall sail in one and look back at the other to extract the last ounce of pleasure from my labour. And if it happens that I cannot have two lovely boats and become bitter, I shall sail around in the ugliest of boats I can find, looking at everyone else's nice boat, whilst they have to avert their gaze from mine."
> _
> ...


Awesome! I love it!

Not exactly the same but I recall a boat owner whom I shared a dock with in Seattle. Instead of pouring his funds into a mega-boat, he had 2 boats (each about 35ft) in adjoining slips.

One nice J boat and one nice powerboat. A better use of ones funds I thought than one big boat...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

seaner97 said:


> If yours is a 6, maybe I am closer to Larry the Cable guy than I'd like to admit.


That's not my boat! In fact my boat needs a new cockpit, which I intend to build this winter. A pretty large project and likely the last big project I'll do to it. My boat's state can't compare to these boats I photograph, I work full time and sail the boat in season, and I'm not as skilled as the people that built that cockpit.

Speaking of CCA design, how about this one: S&S from the 60's. NOVA was shipped east from the west coast, proving there are very skilled boat workers on the west coast.










She looks like a 10 to me to for these reasons: 100% perfect finish.










So what does that cost? Hard question but if you give a quality boatyard carte blanche to keep that 100% perfect finish which is done on the off season inside shops, I would guess you might average,....$15,000.00 per season for a boat this size.










Beautiful as she is, that cost isn't worth it to me and my boat. But I appreciate these boats and their level of finish. Many of the owners are avid sailors and sail them a surprising amount(some don't as well).


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Mechanically a 9, visually an optimistic 7!
My boat gets sailed, a lot! Not a dock queen thats for sure.
Hull was painted last year, deck is being done this spring, that will brighten things up a lot.
The only reason I won't give it a 10 mechanically is I need to replace the lenses in my port and starboard nav lights, they are starting to oxidize. The deck is being stripped of all hardware for paint so that will be fixed for spring.
I'm one of those guys who can't stand knowing something is broken or doesn't work, it has to be fixed asap and properly! Probably a character defect to some.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

It has always seemed to me that everyone loves a nice shiny wooden boat, unless that is your only boat and you want to sail regularly.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I keep removing bright work and going to bare, weathered teak. No 10.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

TomMaine said:


> Beautiful as she is, that cost isn't worth it to me and my boat. But I appreciate these boats and their level of finish. Many of the owners are avid sailors and sail them a surprising amount(some don't as well).





Don0190 said:


> It has always seemed to me that everyone loves a nice shiny wooden boat, unless that is your only boat and you want to sail regularly.


There are a far too many variables to mention, but a couple of points on brightwork:

1. Fortunately, due to the way light is reflected, blemishes in brightwork don't usually show up in photos - so any amount of brightwork will make you boat look a '10' in a photo even if it's only a '7' in real life..

2. A properly done, high-quality, varnish job (in both product and labour) far is easier - and cheaper - to maintain at a '10' for a longer period of time than the short life of a couple of coats of hardware-store rubbish because the timber is properly treated, coated and sealed preventing moisture penetrating and lifting the varnish. Regardless of how it looks, it's better for the timber also. That's why people do it.

Sure, nothing will handle abuse but I see no reason a fine piece of floating furniture shouldn't be able to be regularly sailed and not maintain a '10' rated finish*. ..and we have lots of examples in this part of the world. Those who find they need to get out the varnish-pot every weekend, probably didn't do the job properly to start with.

* = Obviously how long the finish will last depends a lot on UV exposure and the general environment the boat is kept in.. in some parts having lots of brightwork is simply crazy.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Classic30 said:


> There are a far too many variables to mention, but a couple of points on brightwork:
> 
> 1. Fortunately, due to the way light is reflected, blemishes in brightwork don't usually show up in photos - so any amount of brightwork will make you boat look a '10' in a photo even if it's only a '7' in real life..
> 
> ...


You know your stuff. This boat gets used more than any boat I know. Sailing 3 or 4 daily charters out of Maine all season, it gets loaded with dozens of passengers all day long, raises sails-sails-douses sails, docks, over and over.

It's hauled in the fall for a couple weeks for maintenance, bottom, etc. then heads out in the North Atlantic in November bound for Bermuda, and then onto the Southern Caribbean, where it works all week long doing the same hard labor of day charters.

The family 'vacations' consist of racing in Antigua and Maine, the boat gets no down time.

It arrives back in Maine in May and starts the whole process over again. The husband and wife that own it do all their own maintenance. They have recently added a full time mate to help. They've been on this grueling(for boat and owners)routine for more than 10 years.

How do they do what many will tell you is impossible? They know their stuff! He's a very accomplished boat builder(she cares for the brightwork). They built this Alden designed schooner decades ago.










This boat is not alone. There are many 'gold platers' out there that spend more time at sea than 99% of sailboats moving constantly. The skills needed to keep them shiny and new are available around the world. You just have to be able to write the checks.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

This is the only "10" in my book:


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> This is the only "10" in my book:


Maybe in the early 80s. But just like a boat back then it declines, what's the rating now?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

10s require a lot of maintenance


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## CS Cruiser (Dec 5, 2011)

My boat looks better than that:devil


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

CS Cruiser said:


> My boat looks better than that:devil


Fine, you stick with you boat, I'll take women and beer, we will see who has more fun...


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I've never seen Mainsail's boat up close and personal, he's never seen mine.  And, for some reason, I've never liked pissin contest threads, which this one seems to be. 

As for the post above, Women and beer V/S boat. You must be kidding! When you are my age the boat wins hands down. I was born married and probably drank enough beer to easily float my boat. You only rent beer, though. The human body is a pass through filtration system for that beverage. 

All the best,

Gary


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

After careful consideration, it occurs to me that no boat can really be classed as a '10' unless it is DRY SAILED and someone carefully cleans, buffs, and polishes the entire _bottom _between uses.

Shiny topsides and trim? Yes yes, very nice, but I'm not sure we should go above "9.1" for any boat that isn't equally shiny in the places we can't normally see.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

JonEisberg said:


> For anyone with designs on ever owning a "10", I'd suggest you watch the movie again... The moral of that story, after all, is that attainment of such a lofty goal of perfection ain't what it's usually cracked up to be...
> 
> ;-)
> 
> This magnificent Seguin 52 from Lyman Morse is probably the closest sailing yacht to a "10" that I've ever delivered... Sure, it was a nice ride, but I don't think I've _EVER_ been happier or more relieved to have a trip over, without putting a mark on the boat, than I was at the conclusion of that trip... ;-)


Reminds me of a story of a coworker of mine back in college. He was in his 30s which meant old to me at that time. He did not drive but had a custom $3000 mtn bike with a custom paint job. While this is a lot of money now it was even more in the 80s. He took his custom designed, custom built, custom painted bike and tossed it onto the cement the moment he took delivery.

People stared dumfounded and asked "Why?". "Because now I don't have to worry about that." In order to keep a 10 you would have to refuse red wine onboard, dark beer on board and maybe even sailing onboard.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

travlineasy said:


> I've never seen Mainsail's boat up close and personal, he's never seen mine.  And, for some reason, I've never liked pissin contest threads, which this one seems to be.


I am finding this more of a philosophical debate on the value of having a perfect boat, or if that's even possible.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jephotog said:


> ......In order to keep a 10 you would have to refuse red wine onboard, dark beer on board and maybe even sailing onboard.


Would dark beer really be hard to get out of a teak cockpit sole? I wouldn't have thought so.

Red wine on deck, on the other hand, has been verboten on every boat I've ever known. We drink it in the salon only.

However, just this past summer, we had friends for the weekend who have a very nice wine cellar and enjoy a good juice. I BBQ a surf and turf and make the red wine cockpit exception. We eat and drink well past sunset. Sure enough, with the final glasses poured, he elbows one over and it pours across the table and onto the teak sole.

Our cockpit lighting puts off just enough glow that you can see to eat, like it was a very dark restaurant. You can't see the sole well at all. We quick run below for paper towels and dab up what we can. Towel is soaked. I then put the sides of the table down and spray the sole, indiscriminately, with one part teak deck cleaner. I can't really see where the wine is exactly, especially after I wet the sole with the cleaner. I do not scrub, but pull the transom shower out and rinse it all off for an extended period. Figuring the shower pumps at a few gallons per minute, I bet I rinsed with 20 gallons. I then went to bed with visions of a stained cockpit and a huge repair bill. Stupid, stupid, stupid.......

At sunrise, I make coffee and then sulk above to see the horror. Not a sign at all. Like it never happened. I was amazed.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Red wine on deck, on the other hand, has been verboten on every boat I've ever known. We drink it in the salon only.


With an all teak cockpit and sole, I can attest nothing stains the teak for long. We've drenched ours with all colors of wine and food(and lots of other things only kids and dogs are capable of), and after a few days of sun, salt water, rain, no trace remains. Teak is wonderful.

On the other hand, red wine spilled on the painted cabin top of our boat, leaves a stain that will be there until I paint the top again. The stain doesn't bother us though, it shows you're living well.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TomMaine said:


> With an all teak cockpit and sole, I can attest nothing stains the teak for long.....


The worst thing I've found to get out of the teak deck is potato chip grease. One doesn't think they will stain and even being careful not to drop crumbs, the smallest little piece will leach an oil stain that is 10 times it's size!! Grease is hard to get out, but fades over time, not unlike teak oil.

Our cockpit teak is pretty smooth, since it lives under the bimini and isn't as worn. I will bet, if I spilled red wine on our side decks, it would never come out of the grain.

Nice cockpit party pic. I know they are reportedly making some nice Rose these days, but that isn't the same on teak as a Cab. 

(p.s. if that's a white zinfandel, it's neither red nor wine  )


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

Stumble said:


> I think it is too simple to try and give a boat a single rating. I tend to think of it as three seperate numbers... Mechanical maintenance, sailing and rigging maintenance, and cosmetic maintenance. I shoot for a 9 in the first two, and a 5 at best for cosmetic... But then I tend to buy boats with as little wood and cosmetic bots as possible.


I agree, Greg.

Does the engine start? ALL the time, EVERY time? Check.

Do the lights & fridge work? Check.

Does the rigging and sail handling gear work, without fail, every time? Check.

Is the wood varnished? No f-ing way. :| I have better things to do, like go sailing.:eek


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Only way to closely maintain a 9+ boat is to shrink wrap it all year... :devil










Not really something I'd want... :wink


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Blood never comes out of teak. Caution when cleaning your fish!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

And, an UPDATE FROM THE ORIGINAL POSTER:

A "10" as defined by the original post, is MaineSail's boat. And, because few of us have actually seen it, it's based on how we IMAGINE his boat to be. If you've read enough of MaineSail, you don't have to wonder if the systems on his boat are sorted out, you _know_.

In assigning his boat to the "10" end of the scale no assumptions were made as to the level of visual appeal other than he's a guy who might be expected to keep his boat looking good, but because he actually uses his boat, it's somewhere shy of super-shiny-perfect, buffed and beautiful.

One reply suggested this thread is a "pissing contest", but that's not the point. Just a way of asking where your boat stands primarily in terms of having it's systems sorted out and maintained. Do you have every last seacock properly bedded and safely maintained, or is there one that you've never even seen? That sort of thing.

Anything outside of the "1" Captain Ron's Boat to "10" (Mainesail's boat") scale is some sort of a 10+, showboat, rich man's trophy.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> The worst thing I've found to get out of the teak deck is potato chip grease. One doesn't think they will stain and even being careful not to drop crumbs, the smallest little piece will leach an oil stain that is 10 times it's size!! Grease is hard to get out, but fades over time...


Funny. Last time I was eating potato chips in the cockpit I just poured a pile for myself right onbthe teak. I'll have to look next time I'm aboard to see if there is a stain.

Below decks my boat is a cosmetic 7. Above decks, maybe a 4 with the teak being a solid 2. It's part of how I could afford the boat.

The cedar in the sauna, on the other hand is a 10. I only allow naked, recently showered, Scandinavian women's bottoms to touch it.

Medsailor

P.S. Massage oil also stains. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> Funny. Last time I was eating potato chips in the cockpit I just poured a pile for myself right onbthe teak. I'll have to look next time I'm aboard to see if there is a stain.
> 
> Below decks my boat is a cosmetic 7. Above decks, maybe a 4 with the teak being a solid 2. It's part of how I could afford the boat.
> 
> ...


Teak is a 2? Gee, Med, it sounds like the dirt on your teak may be protecting it from cooking grease. 

Just to be clear, my cockpit teak sole is untreated and stains. The table is varnished and does not.

Showered Scandinavian bottoms are worth it. (Wife is half Swedish)


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Speaking of teak, here's an age comparison. This is a W-class yacht that was launched this year. They're all teak on deck.

Fresh teak decking:










Here's the same W-class design, same builder, launched 15 years ago, I photographed this week.

15 year old teak decking:


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Not unlike a weathered New England shingle home, I actually like the weathered look of teak better than the raw wood look. 

However, not all teak weathering is the same. Sometimes it looks neat and others just dirty.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> However, not all teak weathering is the same. Sometimes it looks neat and others just dirty.


That's probably because it IS dirty.

Just because it's coated with Nothing(TM) doesn't mean it shouldn't be washed down and scrubbed with a deck cleaner every so often... just to get rid of the dirt. Banning shore-shoes on deck helps also.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Classic30 said:


> That's probably because it IS dirty. Just because it's coated with Nothing(TM) doesn't mean it shouldn't be washed down and scrubbed with a deck cleaner every so often.


Agreed, a frequent scotch brite brush with straight salt water is the best medicine for an untreated teak deck.

Some, however, are not really "dirty", they have black stuff growing in the grains. The grey color is not dirt either.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Agreed, a frequent scotch brite brush with straight salt water is the best medicine for an untreated teak deck.


Depends what's in your water!! :eek

..but, yes, if it's clean water.. sure.



Minnewaska said:


> Some, however, are not really "dirty", they have black stuff growing in the grains. The grey color is not dirt either.


The grey colour is oxidation and totally normal, but getting rid of the black mold (which grows on dirt/dust and other organic rubbish that's been ground into the timber) is the reason I suggested using a deck cleaner occasionally.. FWIW.


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## jtsailjt (Aug 1, 2013)

That is an amazing boat and as good a candidate for being called a perfect 10 amongst boats that are actually sailed and maintained by their owner regularly as I've ever seen. In this case, the owner/sailor was also the original builder! In the early 2000's, he and his wife were building very high quality custom small sailboats and repairing local wooden boats while sailing about a 41' wooden S&S design on short charters similar to what they do now but wanted something bigger. "T" (don't want to mention his actual name here without his permission) had mentioned that they were looking to replace their old boat in favor of something bigger and the next thing I knew their old boat was gone and Heron was on their mooring built entirely by him and his small crew in his little shop that he rented in the barn of a local farm. I could barely believe my eyes because I knew without asking that he had built Heron himself. One of the funniest and most entertaining stories I've ever heard was "T" telling about his experience helping out a friend as crew on a Europe to Caribbean delivery where due to a language barrier the eventful voyage began with another crew member who made the whole trip thinking they were just going for a daysail so if you know him or meet him, buy him a beer and ask him about that!:laugh His wife is from the upper midwest and had never sailed until meeting "T" but was soon taking tourists on their 41 footer while he tended to business in the shop. During one trip with a load of non-sailor tourists onboard she broke her arm out on Penobscot Bay and instead of calling for help to be rescued she singlehanded it back to the mooring herself! For anyone who happens to find themselves anywhere near Rockport, Maine during the summer and loves beautiful sailboats and interesting and nice people and inspiring real sailors, make it a point to visit with Heron and her crew.


TomMaine said:


> You know your stuff. This boat gets used more than any boat I know. Sailing 3 or 4 daily charters out of Maine all season, it gets loaded with dozens of passengers all day long, raises sails-sails-douses sails, docks, over and over.
> 
> It's hauled in the fall for a couple weeks for maintenance, bottom, etc. then heads out in the North Atlantic in November bound for Bermuda, and then onto the Southern Caribbean, where it works all week long doing the same hard labor of day charters.
> 
> ...


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