# Nonsuch 36 - What's the scoop?



## Razcar (Jan 23, 2013)

I've recently come across a review of the Nonsuch 30- which seems nice but small for me. Come to find out, they made a 36, which appears to be perfectly sized. I'm not familiar with this boat and rig, and I'm curious to know what the downside is to it. I love the idea for such a simple rig, easy to single hand. What am I missing? Is the mast problematic, as big as it is? To me it seems like a nice option... great interior room, easy to sail, and from videos i've seen, easy to reef. I wouldn't be into racing it, just cruising it.... perhaps long distances, but mostly around the islands.

any ideas an opinions are welcome.


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

The Nonsuch's are great boats.My Family had a 30 ultra.It was the largest 30 footer I ve ever seen.Its about 30 on the WL to.The interior was very roomy for 2 or 3.It was also fast,very easy to sail.We had an electric Lewmar winch to hoist up the main.Never had any problems handling it.All in all a great boat. I miss it.The 36 is HUGE for a boat under 40'.I was only on one once at a Nonsuch rendevous.It was like being on a 50 footer.They a very well built, beautiful interiors.


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## Razcar (Jan 23, 2013)

Thanks jak3b, 

Do you think they'd make good bluewater cruising boats? 

Any resources online that you know of that can speak to that?

Thanks!


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Suggest you do some googling on their masts, they had some problem and at $100k for a new one you'd better take a close look at it. Their propane systems are absolutely terrible with multiple connections and T's inside the boat and propane water heaters that say right on the "Do not install in a boat". To top it off they are fully balsa cored below the water line and about half of the ones I look at have serious core problems in the bottom. Curiously some are as dry and sound as the day they were built. Do a lot of research and get a very good surveyor


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## Razcar (Jan 23, 2013)

many thanks boat poker!


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Check out owner's association at Home

Low volume production boat line with popular following. My understanding is they are not great upwind boats, but others on SN will need to weigh in to verify that.

When Hinterhoeller Yachts folded up Nonsuch tooling went to ******* Custom Yachts in Whitby, ON - not much information here - ******* Custom Yachts

BP's coring comment holds true with entire Hinterhoeller line from late 70's to end of production - Niagara and Nonsuch models known for coring problems.


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## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

Best place to get information is from the web site of the International Nonsuch Association. Home

The INA is very active and you'll get lots of good advice.

Nonsuches were designed as the ultimate coastal cruiser, and are not bluewater boats. Cockpit is too big, drains are too small, no bridgedeck, etc. But they are fairly fast, very maneuverable, and easy to single hand. And build quality is excellent.

The very early Nonsuches did have problems with their masts because of bolt holes that were drilled down low by the deck level. Hinterhoeller replaced them all under warranty. A new mast for a 30 is nowhere near $100K and I cannot imagine that a mast for a 36 is 10 times the price of the mast for a 36. That's just sillly. Propane lines are tee-d in the cabin, but that's a very easy fix if it hasn't been done already. Hulls are cored, but so were a lot of boats and Hinterhoeller did it really well. I've looked at a lot of boats while shopping for mine and none had wet cores in the hull.

The sail on a 30 is big--about 540 square feet. Air draft is about 50 feet. The sail area on a 36 is 740 square feet. That's huge and I'm guessing you'll want some help from electric winches.

The 33 is a very good size boat too, you might take a look at that as well.

Good luck with your search.


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## reidclifford (Dec 14, 2015)

The Nonsuch 36 is a very nice boat. 
The interior is amazing for its size, layout and features. 

The Nonsuch 36 once it gets sailing it goes. I was on a Nonsuch 36 in Milford CT on Long Island Sound in a 15 knot wind and the Nonsuch 36 heels over slightly and sails in the straight line, on a slight heel like a boat with a purpose and destination. 

The Nonsuch 36 is ideal for long weekend cruises or over nite. Its is almost like having a cabin on the water. 
There is no bending, ducking or weird movements to get in and around the boat. The interior is big. The boat is big for a 36 footer. 

I wished they had continued making the Nonsuch and came up with a way to furl the sail to the mast, which seems like an easy thing to do.
If the sail furl to the mast, the Nonsuch would be the perfect boat to have and own.


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## flyrod (Oct 29, 2011)

What Jiminri said. I will add that I own a Nonsuch 36 and find it is very easy to single hand, sails surprisingly well to weather (seems everyone thinks otherwise). She is a fast boat and easy to handle, tracks and tacks very well. With a 54 hp. Yanmar and 3 blade max-prop she handles like a J 24. The sail at 742 sq. ft. is HUGE, watch your jibes, love the wishbone rig. You will want an electric winch to haul it up, at least I do at 66. With a tides track and stack pack dropping the sail is very simple, as is raising it for a quick sail. It is not a bluewater boat, but is a very capable coastal cruiser and very able to do a 1-2 day offshore hops with a weather window, it handles seas very well but the cockpit is large with no bridge deck to speak of. Also, with just one sail, your options are limited as to sail combos, and you can't hove to. You can rig a storm sail if you desire, but she reefs easily and stands up very well in a blow, has a comfortable motion too. Below deck she is HUGE, lots of storage, lots of ventilation, lots of headroom, well laid out, comfortable, well built and executed, quality fittings properly installed, nice fit and finish. The on demand gas hot water with pilot light is an issue for some (insurance companies) but I love it. Re-plumb the gas lines without Tees interior. The heater is located in the large salon/galley with a hatch, portlight, and dorade vent right next to it, my CO2 detector never goes off. The 30's have the heater inside the head with less room and ventilation, and have had an occasional(heater) problem with CO2 in the small space during cold weather. On the downside, she has a 62' mast (65 with antenna and wind etc), watch your bridges, a fair amount of windage so can be difficult to turn in tight fairways at low speed, and she hunts a bit at anchor. I've not seen any problem with hull coring, but have seen some issues with deck coring. To me, she is the perfect near coastal cruiser/live aboard, albeit not everyone's taste, she is a niche/cult boat.


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## Gvidon (Dec 5, 2020)

Jiminri said:


> Best place to get information is from the web site of the International Nonsuch Association. Home
> 
> The INA is very active and you'll get lots of good advice.
> 
> ...


I know, it's been a few years...Speaking of masts, has anyone re-rigged Nonsuch 36 as a cat ketch? This would make a lot of sense: the main could be reduced in size and the mizzen would make the boat more stable. I'm thinking something along the lines of Ticon 34.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I have a soft spot for cat rigged boats, for some reason. I just like them. Never owned one, not sure I ever will. The Nonsuch is a great coastal boat (although, with some mast stepping issues, I understand)

I can't see why one would go to the expense of a retro fit. While the mizzen would balance the sail plan, the surgery necessary would seem prohibitive, not to mention disturbing the salon or cockpit.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Gvidon said:


> Has anyone re-rigged Nonsuch 36 as a cat ketch? This would make a lot of sense: the main could be reduced in size and the mizzen would make the boat more stable. I'm thinking something along the lines of Ticon 34.


I doubt that anyone has thought of that because you could almost build a new boat from scratch for what it would take to make that work. Boats are designed as a system with sail plans balanced with underbodies, weights balanced with buoyancy, rig attachments coordinated with the interior layout, and structure placed where the loads are.
Working through the Why-Nots:
Sail Plan:
If you made Nonsuch a ketch the center of effort of the sails would move 3-4 feet aft (maybe more). You would need to move the keel aft a similar amount and with it the structure of the boat that carries the keel loads. If you did not do this, you would take a boat that had mild weather helm and give it uncontrollably weather helm. One of the reasons that the Nonsuch sails so well is that it has a very aerodynamically efficient sail plan. A ketch rig would kill that sailing ability on all points of sail. The added weight aloft of a second mast would make the boat heel more easily (partially offset by a lower center of effort sail plan) The admirable simplicity of the Nonsuch rig would be exchanged for a more complex rig.

Weight:
Cutting down the mainmast would reduce weight forward of the center of buoyancy and adding a mizzen mast would add weight aft of the center of buoyancy. Moving the keel aft to balance the rig would also add weight aft of the center of buoyancy. When done the boat would be sitting down in the stern and up in the bow quite a bit,

Rig Attachment:
The Nonsuch uses free standing spars and those need a portion of the spar that acts as a cantilever resisting the loads of the spar from below the deck. In the case of the Nonsuch, the mast step for the mizzen would be located above where the engine if currently located requiring the engine and prop shaft to be relocated.

Structure,
The nice thing about a cat rig is that it places a lot of loads near the stem where it is pretty easy to develop a lot of structural rigidity. While there are torsional loads between the keel and the mast step, those loads are pretty easily managed. But the Nonsuch was never structured for the additional torsional loads from a mizzen mast. Those torsional loads, especially when combined from the relocated loadings from the relocated keel, and engine would require reworking the interior structure of the boat, which would mean reworking the interior and probably removing and altering the deck and hull coring at concentrated load areas.

But beyond all of that, if you think about the brief fad of free standing rig cruising boats, initially most were Cat Ketches. Pretty quickly they all switched over to straight catboats, which improved sailing ability, tracking, and ease of handling. Similarly if a Nonsuch was built as a ketch, you would take a boat that sailed really well and turn it into something that would be harder to sail and which would not sail as well.

Jeff


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## Gvidon (Dec 5, 2020)

Does your post pertain strictly to Nonsuch boats or are you arguing generally in favor of cat rigged boats versus cat ketches? I’m aware of a number of successful cat ketch designs such as Herreshoff 38, Taunton 43, Ticon 34 and Wyleycat to name a few that are rigged as cat ketches. In fact, there seems to be more cat ketches than cat boats.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I understand cat ketches were most common in New England, back when working boats were powered by sail. The balanced nature of the sailplan is supposed to perform reasonably well too. 
Paying to change the main mast and add a mizzen just can't be cost effective and, as Jeff points out, the hull form is not inherently designed for it. My attraction to cat rigged boats is their simplicity. Add a mizzen and that changes, albeit, tacking is still effortless. I also have to say that cat ketches look funny to me and all mizzens, regardless whether they are cats, can really be in the way. 

By observation, I do not think cat ketches outnumber cat rigged boats. Our marina alone has a handful of 20ish cat rigged and two nonsuch's. I very, very rarely see a cat ketch.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Gvidon said:


> Does your post pertain strictly to Nonsuch boats or are you arguing generally in favor of cat rigged boats versus cat ketches? I'm aware of a number of successful cat ketch designs such as Herreshoff 38, Taunton 43, Ticon 34 and Wyleycat to name a few that are rigged as cat ketches. In fact, there seems to be more cat ketches than cat boats.


Historically the Cat Ketch rig was popular on boats which had minimal stability as compared to their drag. Obviously there were other traditional rigs that also worked well in those same applications. As a result, the cat ketch rig was often chosen for other more compelling reasons than any inherent advantage of the cat ketch rig itself.
The cat ketch rig had a brief resurgence during the character boat fad in the 1970's & 1980's. The ability to produce large, comparatively light, freestanding masts allowed a modernized version of the historic rig. But in that application, the offered little to no real advantage, and came with all kinds of liabilities.
In the boats act as a system context, as builders of boats with freestanding rigs shifted to more efficient hull forms and keels, and these boats began to have more stability relative to drag, the cat ketch became a liability to the sailing ability, ease of handling, seaworthiness, motion comfort, and the cost of building and maintaining these boats.

So once again, after the brief fad, this rig was once again consigned to the trash bin of history. In reality, the cat ketch rig makes very little sense except for very limited applications where there are other compelling reasons to use it.

Generally, I am not a big fan of the cat rig on cruising boats because of the difficulty in having a practical deck plan, the ability to respond easily to changing conditions, the negative impact on motion comfort, and cost. But if faced with a binary choice between a cat rig and a cat ketch rig, I would take the cat rig every time.

Jeff


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

With a fairly long boom, is dipping the boom while sailing downwind a concern?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The Nonsuch rig has a wishbone boom and a high clew so they don't tend to dip their booms in the water any more than any other boat. 

Jeff


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

rugosa said:


> Check out owner's association at Home
> 
> Low volume production boat line with popular following. My understanding is they are not great upwind boats, but others on SN will need to weigh in to verify that.
> 
> ...


Perhaps some other models had cored hulls, but the Niagara 26 we sailed for a decade was solid layup. Deck was cored, hull was not.
Engineering of the hull to deck joint and the way the floors reinforced the keel bolts was very 'high end'. Not a heavy boat, but strong. And fast.


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## flyrod (Oct 29, 2011)

There was 1 ketch Nonsuch, factory built by Hinterhoeller, a 36', I don't know if she is still in service or not. I can only guess it was not as desirable as the the standard cat rigged Nonsuch. They did built a 40' called a Nereus that was ketch rigged, I believe they built 4-5 of them, and I believe they were well thought of, I've only seen 1 of those. The 36' Nonsuch is very stable as designed, it has a wonderful motion at sea, very comfortable. I own a 36' and am a bit prejudiced, I love the boat. It does not point quite as high, but surprisingly, not by much and makes up for it on the other points of sail. I am a near coast single hander and that is where she really shines, it is what she was designed for. Extremely comfortable, well built, tons of room, handles well, forgiving and quick. I don't recommend changing the sail plan, try one first, I think you will be impressed. I am happy.


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