# Tartan 33 or Pearson 323?



## bugbitten (Jul 20, 2010)

My wife and I live near the southern end of the Chesapeake and are looking at a first boat to enjoy during what we hope will be our upcoming not-quite-golden years. We are novices, but have a good friend (Hawaiian!) who's made a number of major passages and is willing to help us learn to sail. We're looking for a cruiser that is sturdy, forgiving, easily managed, with a capacity to grow with us should we become accomplished enough to sail along the East coast and, perhaps, over to the Bahamas. We're looking for comfort more than speed, but don't want to be passed by every teenager in a paddle boat.

We initially leaned toward Pearson 35s and Tartan 34Cs. My wife really doesn't want a lot of brightwork (and our local marina's 34 foot slips are a lot cheaper than the next size up), so we've looked at and liked the Tartan 33. We're going to look at another (this one freshwater) T33 this weekend, along with a Pearson 323, which is considerably cheaper.

Any thoughts on the relative merits of the T33 and 323? I'll update this after seeing the two boats this weekend. The T33 we've already seen is in very nice shape. The owner is asking 26K and seems comfortable at that price. The other two boats are being brokered. The T33 has an asking price of 22K, which I think could be brought down. The 323 is already at just 17K, with the broker admitting the owner has moved away and is "entertaining all offers." The first Tartan is in the water and the owner ran the Universal diesel for us. It sounded great. The other two are on the hard. The P323 has a Volvo. The T33 another Universal.

Any offer would, of course, be contingent on a full survey.

Being newbies, having a wealth of boat-specific knowledge available would be a plus. There are a lot of Tartan owners in the area, and we'd join the Tartan group. I'm guessing the Pearson would be nearly as well supported.

Thanks.

John
Boatless in Newport News, VA


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

How thoroughly have you looked at the two boats? Have you read and followed the Boat Inspection Trip Tips post I wrote, which is in the Boat Buying Forum as a sticky and also available on my *blog*. If not, they're probably a good place to start.

The post was written to help sailors eliminate boats that are not worth looking at further without having to resort to the cost of a survey.

Both are pretty decent boats. Just remember, the goal of boat buying is to get a good boat at a good price, not to get a boat cheaply. Boats that sell for far below their market price usually do so for good reason and are often more expensive in the long run than buying what Maine Sail calls a Two-Percenter boat.


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## Gary3675 (Jul 17, 2006)

I have owned a Tartan 33, shoal draft Fract rig, and its was a great sailing boat thats easy to handle. Even in 30 knots with a reef main and jib it felt stable and solid. Also its pretty fast in light air. When we bought ours the deck was soft and needed repair. Bottom was also an issue. However all boats that age may have these problems. Make sure when you walk on the deck its not spongy. My only issue with the boat was the head area....a little small. But thats a me thing.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Here's some good info on the Tartan 33. All things being equal, it would be my choice.

Tartan 33 Profile and Perspective


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## bugbitten (Jul 20, 2010)

I've printed out your inspection tips and will take them along.

I've been involved with classic cars long enough to know that one is generally better off buying the best you can afford, figuring that the PO probably sunk much more money into it than he's willing to admit to himself and won't be expecting to recover it. Of course, it also gives me pause when folks say they have $70K in recent receipts on a boat they're offering for 30. I don't show my wife those ads!

I don't suppose the two-pin moisture meter I bought on ebay for my firewood would work for checking decks/hulls? (Don't everyone wince at once.)

John


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## bugbitten (Jul 20, 2010)

Gary3675 said:


> Bottom was also an issue. However all boats that age may have these problems. Make sure when you walk on the deck its not spongy. My only issue with the boat was the head area....a little small. But thats a me thing.


I've walked the decks, bouncing up and down a bit, and it seems all the boats (maybe ten) I've been on felt pretty solid, so maybe I'm not doing it right (I ain't all that light). The T33 that I've seen seemed to have very solid decks. The owner admitted to some minor cosmetic blistering of the hull.

The head did look a bit tight, but it'll be one more reason to shed a few pounds!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

bugbitten said:


> I've printed out your inspection tips and will take them along.
> 
> I've been involved with classic cars long enough to know that one is generally better off buying the best you can afford, figuring that the PO probably sunk much more money into it than he's willing to admit to himself and won't be expecting to recover it. Of course, it also gives me pause when folks say they have $70K in recent receipts on a boat they're offering for 30. I don't show my wife those ads!
> 
> ...


Umm, no, most boat owners will hit you with something heavy if you start poking holes in their boat with a two-pin moisture meter... Maine Sail, who wrote the section on the moisture meter in my post, has a great article on using moisture meters that I've linked to in the post.


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## bugbitten (Jul 20, 2010)

JimsCAL said:


> Here's some good info on the Tartan 33. All things being equal, it would be my choice.
> 
> Tartan 33 Profile and Perspective


Thanks. I had read that article a couple of times. I also have the Practical Sailor's "Practical Boat Buying" volumes, and have about memorized those. They have the T33 in there, but unfortunately nothing on the P323. There are some P323-related sites that I've scoured, but I haven't found much from an independent source.

I have not yet been on the P323. Will do that Sunday. Based on what I've seen on the other Pearsons and Tartans I've looked at, I too would lean toward the Tartan. BUT if the boats were equally desirable, from a condition and utility standpoint, I'd be tempted to go with the 323 if it were several thousand dollars less. Unless, of course, the sages here warned me off it, which is why I'm asking.

I do feel an affinity with the Tartans, but then I did for the Cheoy Lee Clipper 36 I looked at, until I looked a little closer at those teak decks!

John


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## omaho5 (Jun 5, 2008)

Check out a Cape Dory 33 or 36 as alternatives. A lttle too much bright work perhaps. Beautful boats.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The 36 is too big, and the 33 is going to be far slower IIRC...


omaho5 said:


> Check out a Cape Dory 33 or 36 as alternatives. A lttle too much bright work perhaps. Beautful boats.


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## OasisII (Dec 25, 2007)

*Pearson 323 opinion*

I own a Pearson 323 and can give you some of my own opinions with the caveat that most owners love their boats! My boat was purchased almost 4 years ago, trading from a Catalina 30. Also bear in mind that many of my comparisons are to the C-30. Finally, I am a fair weather cruiser and not a racer so you have to keep that in mind as well.

*I like the extra weight (12,800 displacement). It doesn't bob around like a cork.
*The cockpit is fairly large compared to most other boats of its size and age.
*I like the skeg rudder and shoal draft.
*The bulwarks in the bow keep things a bit drier and add some security to my family and guests 
*The main sail/boom is on the small side. This is a great benefit to a novice. It is a lot less cumbersome, and easier to handle.
*The walk through head is large compared to most boats of this size. Some folks may not like the walk through feature though.
*The V-berth is fairly large and comfortable. Head room is high.
*The Bridge deck provides for extra deck seating. Yes, some like it for other reasons but I am a fair weather cruiser. -- The down side to the bridge deck is that the companionway steps are deep - Not that easy for little kids.
*Most of the hardware on this boat is fairly stout. 
*Large anchor locker
*Offset companionway -guests don't have to get out of the way for someone to get through.
I could go on and on with the pros. Here are a few cons:

*Sleeping five is tight.
*Bilge is so deep that I can't reach the bottom to clean it.
*Engine is so deep that I need to be a contortionist to change the impeller
*If you have a dodger, it is a bit difficult to duck under the dodger and over the bridge deck to get down the companionway.
*Some say that the boat is slow and doesn't point well - It meets my needs and seems to be much faster than my C-30.

My first reaction to the price of the boat that you are looking at: It must need a lot of work? The boat that I see listed at $17,000 on Yachtworld looks nicer than some of the others listed for more, but there are no details at all on the listing. Follow Dog's advice!!

You mention that you don't want a lot of brightwork. The P-323s have teak toe rails and most have the optional teak combing caps. I spent 25 hours this past summer refinishing mine!

One of the reasons that I chose my boat over a few others is that it had $32,000 in prior invoices dating only a few years back (engine repower, deck recore, mast/boom repaint, water heater, furler, dodger to name a few). It surveyed great by a Bozo of a surveyor from Cape Cod. It turns out that he missed a ton of problems (most of which were due to poor workmanship by the Marina that had done the previous work). I take partial blame for the bad survey. Did I say follow Dog's advice??? Now that the money has been spent, I wouldn't go back.

If you get closer, feel free to PM with questions.

By the way, I forgot the most important Pro of the P-323 -
The Admiral loves it!!!!!

Mike


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## bugbitten (Jul 20, 2010)

There is a CD33 not too far away that I am interested in seeing. Those boats definitely have their appeal. The CD33 has a PHRF of 186, the 383, 180, and the T33, 156. I forget the area these figures are from, but they'll give an okay idea of relative speed. A broker is trying to get me to look at an Island Packet 31 - just "reduced" to 49K! - and that's a 195. Out of my league, I'm afraid. He says it'll "move fast" at that price. I've learned late in life that no one likes a smart aleck, so I didn't say, "With a PHRF of 195, that'd be the first time!"

John


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

As a fellow Pearson owner, I would pick the Tartan over the Pearson 323. You could also look at a Pearson 34, Sabre 34, Pearson 10M. The Pearson is a decent boat and well put together, but IMHO, Pearson tried to do too much in this boat. The cockpit is huge (8') for a boat this size, but it makes below deck tight. I don't get the permanent table, which takes up a ton of room, for aboat this size, I'd prefer a fold up table. There is an anchor locker and full sized v-berth. Lot's of nook and cranny storage in this boat, but nook and cranny storage takes up space, as does a large cockpit, full galley, etc. I never did like a walk-through head, but to each his own. The walk-through head is a results of all the other things that take space.

In my opinion, Pearson tried to cram the insides of a Pearsn 34 in to a 32 foot boat. 

I don't mean to sound harsh, and if I come across that way, my apologies. I think either boat would be good, but the Tartan is faster and probably more roomy than the P323. Rest assured both are built like tanks and can take you most places in comfort.

In the end though, it's your boat, you've got to be happy with it. Every time I step onto mine, that big grin comes to my face. Yours has to do that too. Also make sure you get a boat that is structurally sound and passes a marine survey. Every boat has issues, but if they're major, it can more costly to fix than the actual boat price or for one that is in much better shape.

DrB


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## bugbitten (Jul 20, 2010)

I want to reply to what Mike has posted, point by point. I hope this makes sense. I'll try to bold face his original text.

**I like the extra weight (12,800 displacement). It doesn't bob around like a cork.*

I suspect I'd prefer heavier over lighter, too. The wife as well.

**The cockpit is fairly large compared to most other boats of its size and ag*e.

Can you nap in it, stretched out? I'm 5' 10", or at least was until recently.

**I like the skeg rudder and shoal draft.*

Good for the Chesapeake in particular, I'd think.

**The bulwarks in the bow keep things a bit drier and add some security to my family and guests *

Dry and secure is good. They'll be a nervous bunch with me at the helm!

**The main sail/boom is on the small side. This is a great benefit to a novice. It is a lot less cumbersome, and easier to handle.*

I hope to gain enough experience to be a "novice" someday!

**The walk through head is large compared to most boats of this size. Some folks may not like the walk through feature though.*

If I've been using it, it'll be a "sprint through" feature.
*
*The V-berth is fairly large and comfortable. Head room is high.*

We're fairly large and comfortable people, so another plus.

**The Bridge deck provides for extra deck seating. Yes, some like it for other reasons but I am a fair weather cruiser. -- The down side to the bridge deck is that the companionway steps are deep - Not that easy for little kids.*

I don't think the T33 has what you could reasonably call much of a bridge deck, and that has me concerned a bit. I guess folks just leave one or more of the companionway pieces in place if they're worried about getting pooped.

**Most of the hardware on this boat is fairly stout.*

stout is what I want - grounding-proof would be even better!

**Large anchor locker*

I noted there was no anchor locker on the Tartan.

Your cons are not major ones for me, other than engine access. One of the things that drew me to the Tartan 34C was the unbelievable engine access. I do like to tinker and do maintenance work, but I'm only liable to do that if it's not miserable work. A recent MRI showed me that I am somewhat claustrophobic and that, combined with the general stiffness of a 60 year old, trifocals, etc., mean that access to things that need routine servicing should be pretty good. The T33 has good access, although you have to climb into the enormous lazarette to take advantage of it.
*
My first reaction to the price of the boat that you are looking at: It must need a lot of work? The boat that I see listed at $17,000 on Yachtworld looks nicer than some of the others listed for more, but there are no details at all on the listing. Follow Dog's advice!! *

It probably is too cheap to be any good, but hope springs eternal! I'm not too keen on the gas generator strapped to the deck. I wonder how things look under it.

I'll get lots of pictures and post them on the web after this weekend, to see if you have any particular comments.

I think we'd really like a 323, if we found a nice one. Or the T33. Or the CD33!

*You mention that you don't want a lot of brightwork. The P-323s have teak toe rails and most have the optional teak combing caps. I spent 25 hours this past summer refinishing mine!*

The toe rails on the T33 are aluminum, so I think about the only teak is the hand rails and the area around the companionway. I should've shown the wife the Cheoy Lee. That would've softened her up to just about anything else!

John


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Bugbitten-

*Just remember-YOU WANT A GOOD BOAT AT A GOOD PRICE. * Getting a cheap boat is often far more expensive than getting a good boat at a good price, even if they are the exact same make/model. Refitting/refurbishing a boat generally is far more expensive than the price difference of buying the same exact model in better condition to begin with. *When you're refitting a 35' boat, you are usually paying NEW 35' BOAT PRICES for the gear you're getting. If the previous owner did the refitting, you're getting the same gear at pennies on the dollar. *


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## bugbitten (Jul 20, 2010)

Thanks, Sailing Dog, and all, for the great advice. I do intend to get the moisture meter, but won't have it in time for this weekend's trip to see the second T33 and the first 323. There do seem to have been some changes in prices and in the meter lineup (mostly shifting to LCD readouts, instead of the analog meter). Here's the current pricing (note that the Canadians are now selling the digital GRP meter). I think there might be some variations in which meters come with cases and the like, but you still definitely save money going Canadian.

Model CT33 (Pinless analog, 0% - 30%). . . . . . . . . . . . . . .199
Model CT100 (Pinless digital, 0% - 30%, electronic species). . . .225
Model CT808 (Pinless microprocessor, 0% - 99%, species +). . . . .277
Model CT828 (CT808 plus Remote Sensor, 1.5 inch depth sensing) . .366
Model CT858 (CT828 with Mini Sensor, LCD light, audible alarm) . .425

Model GRP200 (Pinless marine digital, fiberglass, 1.5 inch) . . 295
Model GRP200S (Optional plug-in remote sensor for GRP200) . . . 88

Calibration Plate (for pinless models) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15

Small Soft Padded Case For MT90/110/270, CT33, CT100 . . . . INQUIRE
Medium Soft Padded Case For MT700/808, CT808, CMT-908, GRP200 . . 36
Large Soft Padded Case For CT828, CT858, GRP200+GRP200S . . . . . 48
Hard-Shell Carrying Case (for CT828, CT858, & GRP200+200S) . . . . 66

Shipping via Canada Post Expedited parcel (typical 10 days) . . . 15
Shipping via Canada Post Expresspost (typical 5 days). . . . . . . 25

JR Overseas is selling the GRP 33 now for $325, and the GRP 200 for $359.

I didn't look at their shipping.

Thanks again.

Bugbitten


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Bug--

Get the CT33 with the calibration plate. Buying one of the others is just spending money you don't need to spend.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Note they have an ebay store with lower prices. Selection they have up varies, but send them an inquiry if you don't see what you want.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*Info*

Hey,

Just some random thoughts for you to consider (or not):


I'm pretty confident that the 323 for $17k is going to be junk. All the red flags are there - low price, owner moved away, entertaining all offers, etc. Take a look if you are going to be in the area, but don't seriously expect to buy that boat. As you have heard before, you want to buy something that you can sail now, not a project.
Unless you really know what you are doing, I would forget about buying a moisture meter. Do read all the information on this site about inspecting a boat. If you do find a boat that you like and appears to be in decent shape, then do the full inspection. If things appear in order then hire a surveyor and pay him for his knowledge. Just because a moisture meter may find water in a few spots in one boat and less in another boat doesn't really mean anything.
Do consider the boat and gear as a package, but also be sure to only include items that are valuable to you. New sails are a major plus, but a boat that was raced (many T33's have been) and comes with 3 spinnakers won't be of value to you. If you will aboard for a week or so, refrigeration is valuable, and installing a new one is big $$.
Try and find a good broker. Speak to lots of them and you'll see what I mean. Then listen to the broker. He will know a lot about boats. If he listens to you and knows what is important to you, he can find lots of boats that will meet your needs. There probably are a few other models out there besides Tartan and Pearson that would work for you.
Your goal should be to get a great boat at a good price. Not a questionable boat at a great price.
Good luck,
Barry


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## bugbitten (Jul 20, 2010)

Folks,

I'm back from the trip to see the T33 and the P323. I may post a separate note about this in a new thread, but thought I should put an update here, first.

The T33 appears to be in beautiful shape, inside and out. It was out of the water, so I was able to look over the hull. No signs of blistering or hard groundings, etc., as least to these inexperienced eyes. None of the moisture damage around the base of the salon ports that the other T33 I looked at had. The ice box has been converted to a fridge; unfortunately, the stove and oven were removed to put in a hot plate and microwave. (One of the marina guys said he had the alcohol stove and oven from his Bristol 35 he'd let me have, for what that's worth.)

The P323 was something of a cosmetic mess. In the water, lots of growth on the hull, the above decks teak, especially the rub/toe rail, was rough, with some of it needing to be replaced. Oddly, I liked the interior layout, but all the cushions would have to be replaced.

I've got pictures I'll try to upload to a separate web page, along with additional details, but I need some advice as I feel I may need to make a quick offer on the T33.

It was originally offered at 29K, was dropped to 22, and is now owned by the bank after bankruptcy proceedings. I don't have to feel too guilty if I make a very low offer to the bank, do I? Any thoughts on where you'd start, contingent on a survey? 

Bugbitten


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## bugbitten (Jul 20, 2010)

Here are links to the pictures I took of the two boats. I hope navigating the pages isn't too big a headache.

Tartan 33 #2

Pearson 323 Kinsale


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

I have a 323, and am therefore biased...however in this case the Tartan may have the edge. Partly it's the price of the 323 - $17K is suspiciously cheap. And as I looked through the photos, there seemed to be plenty to check out/do...

A good bit of advice I got from a broker once - look at a new boat as a collection of parts, not a boat. Take a careful look at the equipment - sails, engine, mast, hardware, electrical, etc. What needs to be upgraded, replaced...the contents may well exceed the value of the boat! And if you are like many of us, when you have bought the boat there may not be a lot left over for those upgrades....

Pearson vs Tartan in identical condition - personally, both good boats, but I'd go for the Pearson. In this case....


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## bugbitten (Jul 20, 2010)

Paul,

I suspect that, were the two boats in similar condition, we'd lean toward the Pearson, too. Seems to have more character (which, of course, means more sanding and varnishing) and just feels more comfortable below. I like the heavier displacement and better tankage, too, although I'm not sure about that engine access! If we don't jump on what may be a bargain price for the T33, we may go look at what seems to be a much nicer P323 in Connecticut. I've been owing my brother in law in New Haven a visit, anyway. What better excuse than boat ogling?

John


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## neoxaero (Feb 18, 2010)

On the 323 I think I would be concerned about crevis corrosion on the chain plates for the shrounds. The sealant job looks sketchy at best and has probably been that way for a long time.

Although looking at the boat I think if you could get it cheaper than what its listed for it may be worth purchasing it

The tartan looks good over all but it looks like the joint at the stub and keel is cracked - I would be concerned theres some water intrusion to the keel bolts (but i very well could be wrong and who knows what the bottom of the pearson looks like) 

The tartan needs new running rigging

After looking at both boats - Unless you could get the pearson for an insanely low price and a survey doesn't find any hugely expensive problems with it - I would go with the Tartan - It looks like its been maintained a hell of a lot better than the Pearson


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## bugbitten (Jul 20, 2010)

What looks like a patch to rear of the keel is actually part of how the keel is assembled. It's not a repair.

We are going to put in a pretty low offer on the Tartan, thinking the Pearson could be a good buy as an alternative, given what the broker thinks it might go for (under 10!), but it's going to need a lot more than running rigging to get it on the water, I suspect. The broker did say the Pearson was out sailing at the end of last season and that the Volvo ran well at that point.

Actually, I reread that note and the 323 has been sitting at the pier for about a year; however, they did run the diesel back in October before winterizing it.

Lots of bottom growth!


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## NautiJo (Jan 2, 2011)

*T33 vs 323*

I owned a 323 for 10 years and felt the boat was built like a tank. For a relatively heavy boat she sails quite well in light air and handles heavy air very well also. She doesn't point as well as I would have liked but that goes with the shoal draft and lack of inboard sheeting. The T33 will definitly be the faster of the 2. 
I recently looked at a couple T33'S and think they don't stack up well as far as layout goes (very poor IMHO). 
The engine can be a problem as many came with a Volvo diesel which I have been warned by my mechanic can be very costly to maintain if problems arise. If you pass on a $17,000.00 323 I would appreciate knowing where she is because I am considering buying another one.
Thank you and good luck.
Nauti Jo


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## Frmreilly (Nov 25, 2011)

I own a P323 and here are my thoughts

Pro
Heavy
Balanced 
Deep hull makes it ride like a caddy
Universal diesel smooth/reliable but can barely get me to 6pm with a clean bottom
Nice roomy interior
Comfortable head/shower
Nice galley

Negative
Shrouds make walking around the deck cumbersome and keep me from hauling the jib as tightly as I would want to point well
4.5 foot draft means the boat heels quickly and then locks in
No helm seat
Small table


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