# Is the sailboat market really this bad?



## mpickering (Jun 11, 2010)

I have just had an unreal weekend. 

My wife and I attended the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum annual boat auction. We went last year and saw some good deals on various boats. They had listed several racers that are in my club race fleets so I was in the market for a potentially cheap racer. Specifically a Comet, a couple of Lightnings and two Star boats. Last year, a Star needing serious TLC sold for $200. My wife was looking for a potential play powerboat for the river.

This year made that look good.

This is a no-reserve auction. Highest bid, no matter how low, takes it.

Most of the powerboats went for $1000-$7000. The two jet boats my wife liked, an Avon Seasport DL 400 jet RIB and a Regal 1700 jet boat sold for $6600 and $3600, respectively. Well beyond our self-imposed budget of $2000. The Avon new is a $28K boat. Lowest was a wood Chris Craft 23 that sold for $600. Guy bought it for the trailer and was going to scrap the rest. Sad. 

If you were a sailor looking for your first boat or a hell of a bargain, this was your day. 

Some highlights:

A clean Tanzer 22 on trailer with 7hp outboard: $250
A very clean, ready-to-sail Tanzer 22 on stands, no motor: $50
Venture 24, no trailer: $50
Venture 22, no trailer: $25 (would have sold for that, no bidders)
An almost-new looking Macgregor 26 water-ballasted sailboat with 8hp electric start outboard on trailer: $500
Restored 1938 Comet wood sailboat: $1300 (some bastard stole the boom the day before the auction)
1970s era Star #5406 on trailer, 2 sets of sails, needs some TLC: $400 
Wooden 40s-era Star sailboat on trailer, needs restoration: $50
28 foot double-ender sloop, 4 cylinder diesel: $1300
Hunter 30, Yanmar diesel, needed a bath, new bottom paint, in the water in sailaway condition: $750.
Morgan 34: $7100
Columbia 9.6: $3400
30 foot wooden sloop: $5700

No, I did not leave zeroes off the ends of most of those numbers. Someone bought a mid-80s Hunter 30 with a clean Yanmar diesel for $750. 

If you were looking for a first, cheap or throwaway sailboat, this was your chance. My wife and I kept looking at each other in disbelief at what some of these boats were selling for. And kicking ourselves for not buying more. I would've bought that Hunter and either took it to my local broker and sold it for 5 times that or pried the Yanmar out of it, repowered my C27 and scrapped/parted out the remainder. Would've been worth the month or two of storage costs.

Mostly, the powerboats sold reasonably well and the sailboats mostly ignored. Some oddballs were a Point Jude 14 without trailer that sold for $2800, an old Optimist hull (no rig) for $900 and two Dyer Dhow dinghies with wooden sail rigs that both fetched well north of $2000 each (one went for $2800, I don't remember the other).

I bought what I went for: Star #5406. I would've got it for $100 but someone bid us up and stopped at $400. I reflect on the fact that at the same time last year I bought my Laser for $400. This year I got a Star for the same price.

Either the sailboat market is really this bad or people just don't want boats anymore given state of the economy. Some of these boats I would have happily bought and thought nothing of donating back a year or two later, considering the costs in the meantime a cheap rental.

I'd say it was unbelievable but I was there and saw it. We couldn't pry ourselves away from what had essentially become a form of auction horror show. The Museum raised money, which is the purpose of the auction, but sad to see so many boats essentially given away. Cheaper to sell them for whatever they can get than clutter up their storage area, I guess.

Matt


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## dnf777 (Jun 23, 2007)

Wow. Not 150 miles away, I'm eyeing a '94 Catalina 22 that's in decent shape for 9k! No way I'll pay that much, but your numbers really make me scratch my head even more.


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## johnnyandjebus (Sep 15, 2009)

mpickering

All I can say is  
Those are some crazy numbers($) you are talking about.

John


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## anthemj24 (Aug 24, 2011)

Not so surprising really. When you take into consideration the cost of storage and maintenance, even many boats that are in decent mechanical condition have a negative value. Sure someone might like to have a 30ft boat for $700, but that person is not likely to be capable of spending $5000 per year in storage and maintenance. The person who has the 5k per year will generally want a boat that is a little nicer. Fixing up clunkers rarely works either, as once you start putting money into the $700 clunker to fix it up, you will quickly run through whatever savings you thought you had. Sadly for many of these older boats, they are overdue for a date with a chainsaw.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Seafever looks great in this picture 

The only things that worked were the bilge pump and cabin lights


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## PaulfromNWOnt (Aug 20, 2010)

Don't know whether I should cry or hurl. There were certainly some deals to be had there.


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## mpickering (Jun 11, 2010)

anthemj24 said:


> The person who has the 5k per year will generally want a boat that is a little nicer. Fixing up clunkers rarely works either, as once you start putting money into the $700 clunker to fix it up, you will quickly run through whatever savings you thought you had. Sadly for many of these older boats, they are overdue for a date with a chainsaw.


Generally agreed. However, many of these boats were not one step from the salvager. The Tanzer 22s were both very nice boats, clean inside, no evidence of mold, water damage or corrosion, good bulkheads and so on. I went aboard both. Had there been a Tanzer 22 fleet in my area, I would have bought one.

I guess it depends on what you define as "clunker". The Ventures, for example, were rough. The Morgan was in great condition. I told my wife that if stayed in the price range of the Hunter, I'd take a run at it and trade up.

I see most owners doing it as labors of love. I didn't buy that Star to recoup my investment. I put $600 into my Laser and I'll put about twice that into the Star. $1500 or so to give me a high performance racer that my wife and I can enjoy for an additional $1500/year in club fees is relatively cheap fun in my book. The woman who bought the Macgregor 26 for $500 got herself a nice starter boat.


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

dnf777 said:


> Wow. Not 150 miles away, I'm eyeing a '94 Catalina 22 that's in decent shape for 9k! No way I'll pay that much, but your numbers really make me scratch my head even more.


See? You made his point. "No way I'll pay that much". So many buyers say the same thing when they see how soft the market is, eh?


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

It really is a buyer's market. I have an app on my Andriod that searches Craigslist. I watch for certain keywords; Formosa, Irwin, ketch... Things that I like and am interested in.

What I see are owners that list their boats, but then over weeks, even months, they eventually come down to what the market will pay. That is usually about 60% of what they originally wanted. Even their initial expectations are coming down, and before they sell, their prices have dropped much lower than you might expect.

Great time to buy, but a terrible time to sell. Don't think things will improve for sellers for many years to come.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Yes, the market really is that bad. It's abysmal in fact. I took a blood bath on my boat that I just sold, and the only thing that made it palatable was that I upgraded to a Pearson 30 in excellent shape, for very little money.

Like homes, if you don't own a boat but always wanted one, now is the time to buy.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Very true. Unfortunately, many sellers still will not accept the fact that fair market value is determined by supply and demand not by what they paid for the boat 5 years ago plus what they spent on it. We appear to be settling into a prolonged recession/stagnant economy. An economic recovery is not around the corner.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

And this is why we will probably never sell our boat. We'll sail her until she can't be sailed anymore.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I took a blood bath on my boat that I just sold, and the only thing that made it palatable was that I upgraded to a Pearson 30 in excellent shape, for very little money.


Therein lies the true story if you are selling a boat - as long as you use the funds for another boat you haven't really lost anything because the new one will be just as cheap (as long as you don't buy new).

It's just like buying & selling securities in a down market - if you keep your money in the market you don't lose anything except on paper. It's when you sell and put the money in something that hasn't crashed that you lose.

I've been a sailboat owner since the early 70's and I've never seen anything remotely like this market - if you ever wanted a boat, now is the time to get in - there's nowhere to go but up and the price of admission can't get any lower - people are PAYING to have their boats taken away.


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## anthemj24 (Aug 24, 2011)

mpickering said:


> Generally agreed. However, many of these boats were not one step from the salvager. The Tanzer 22s were both very nice boats, clean inside, no evidence of mold, water damage or corrosion, good bulkheads and so on. I went aboard both. Had there been a Tanzer 22 fleet in my area, I would have bought one.
> 
> I guess it depends on what you define as "clunker". The Ventures, for example, were rough. The Morgan was in great condition. I told my wife that if stayed in the price range of the Hunter, I'd take a run at it and trade up.
> 
> I see most owners doing it as labors of love. I didn't buy that Star to recoup my investment. I put $600 into my Laser and I'll put about twice that into the Star. $1500 or so to give me a high performance racer that my wife and I can enjoy for an additional $1500/year in club fees is relatively cheap fun in my book. The woman who bought the Macgregor 26 for $500 got herself a nice starter boat.


I don't disagree that for someone who was already planning on picking up an older boat to restore that there are not deals to be had. If however you were not willing to pay 5k for a boat, then even free is overpriced. When you buy a keel boat, you are not only getting a boat, but also acquiring the future obligations associated with it, including storage and maintenance.

We are in a glut of sailboats right now, and will be for another decade. I have always contended that 99% of free sailboats are overpriced, and that should probably carry over to 99% of keelboats priced at less than 1 or 2k. I say this as someone who owns two J24s, one that I just restored, and that I am currently restoring. The crazy thing is that I could have had two more for free just this past summer.

Now that I am thinking about moving to a mid 30ft cruising boat, it is unlikely I will recoup even the restoration costs of the Js when I go to sell them. There is no way in heck I will bother restoring the cruising boat, small keelboats are enough headache for that. Instead, I plan on taking advantage of the weak market to pick up an already restored boat in excellent condition for less than the costs associated with restoring even a decent condition boat.


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## aeronca52 (Sep 8, 2011)

Matt, Just curious, do you remember what the Sharptown Barge went for??

Thanks, Jim


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

Mimsy said:


> And this is why we will probably never sell our boat. We'll sail her until she can't be sailed anymore.


I've always treated my cars that way in good times or bad!!


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

I wish there was a boat auction like that here in Texas.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

My boat's purchase price is now a drop in the bucket. Were there any 27' slips at the police auction?


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

Boats are like any other "passionate pasttime" in that they resemble the stock market: the only time you get hurt is when you get out.

Right before the real estate crash, my wife says to me, "But honey, look, we can make a LOT of money on our house right now" and I say; "But honey, look how much the new house you want actually costs".....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Not exactly sure I understand where the inventory for this auction comes from. 

Someone pointed out the cost of carry for these boats, which rightly influences the buyers willingness to pay. But more importantly, that influences the seller, particularly if they aren't owners who will just use the boat if it doesn't sell. They won't likely sell anything over the winter and faces many more months of carry. The buyers probably know that and the free market works.

As trivia, I've owned my current boat for two years now. Much of the inventory that I considered, during the year prior to buying her, is still for sale and prices are still declining. I watch them on yactworld for some reason.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Unfortunately it's not just the sailboat market. Just about everything is going cheap these days, because we're on hard times........*i2f*


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Not exactly sure I understand where the inventory for this auction comes from...


I would venture a guess that donors make charitable donations of boats to the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum to support its mission of preserving the history of the Chesapeake in return for a possible tax deduction.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> I would venture a guess that donors make charitable donations of boats to the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum to support its mission of preserving the history of the Chesapeake in return for a possible tax deduction.


Makes sense, in which case they have no reason to incur carrying costs that would just erode value over time. For that matter, boats degrade quickly when stored and unused. Buyers would definitely know that.


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## kilby (Aug 30, 2011)

SloopJonB said:


> Therein lies the true story if you are selling a boat - as long as you use the funds for another boat you haven't really lost anything because the new one will be just as cheap (as long as you don't buy new).
> 
> It's just like buying & selling securities in a down market - if you keep your money in the market you don't lose anything except on paper. It's when you sell and put the money in something that hasn't crashed that you lose.
> 
> I've been a sailboat owner since the early 70's and I've never seen anything remotely like this market - if you ever wanted a boat, now is the time to get in - there's nowhere to go but up and the price of admission can't get any lower - people are PAYING to have their boats taken away.


The boat market is not going to come back for a long time if ever. The industry is concerned that young people are not getting into yachting, too much money, too much work, too expensive moorage. In Vancouver there are, it seems, thousands of neglected boats at all the marinas just slowly rotting, society, it seems is too busy. Spoke to someone who spent the Labour Day weekend at a popular marina at a nearby island, he is nearly 60 and commented that virtually all the yacht people were "old guys" meaning closer to 70. That generation is slowly getting off the water with no replacements in sight. I would not consider a boat if I had $2,500 per month mortgage payments like so many 30's and 40's have now.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Matt, you can't make any assumptions about market values from that sale.

Some auctions are well publicized, and reflect the public market. Others are not publicized, either because the folks in charge did a poor job, or because they were "insider" sales, intentionally kept quite so insiders could buy cheap.

I know nothing about that museum or that auction, just remarking on some of the many ways it could have nothing to do with market prices.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

*Not well advertised, but...*

I believe the museum publishes a quarterly magazine, has a website, and may send out mass e-mails to subscribers (I have intended to rejoin), so the auction is probably not that well advertised.

Nevertheless, the strong buyers' market is reflected on eBay, Craigslist, sailboatlistings.com and other web sites. Some boats are being given away for free or for very low prices. It seems as if marina owners are also having a tough time filling their slips.

From my perspective as a potential buyer for the last couple of years, it appears that the market is worsening as inventory increases - supply continues to increase faster than demand does. Prices inevitably drop as motivated sellers compete with each other for the scarce buyers and the better informed buyers realize they can be more selective and bargain harder on price and terms (ex., seller represents and warrants present condition, splits cost of haulout, etc.).

The recession also seems to have accelerated the impact of the internet in replacing traditional methods of selling boats by brokers, word of mouth, and classified ads. I would guess that fewer sellers and buyers recognize the value of the traditional boat broker, when sellers can get just as much or more exposure through other sources.

One other factor that may be influencing the market may be the lack of financing due the ageing of the inventory - boats built in the 70s may now be ineligible because they are more than 30 years old and their values are probably below minimum loan amounts plus the tightening of credit underwriting standards has made credit scarce.


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## anthemj24 (Aug 24, 2011)

jameswilson29 said:


> I believe the museum publishes a quarterly magazine, has a website, and may send out mass e-mails to subscribers (I have intended to rejoin), so the auction is probably not that well advertised.
> 
> Nevertheless, the strong buyers' market is reflected on eBay, Craigslist, sailboatlistings.com and other web sites. Some boats are being given away for free or for very low prices. It seems as if marina owners are also having a tough time filling their slips.
> 
> ...


Yep. The market for older boats is not going to recover until a whole bunch of them meet the chainsaw. When I am turning down people who are trying to give me J24s with trailers, the market is really bad. If you like old boats, you have to start looking at this market like manna from heaven. Go ahead and enjoy, but don't stock up or you will get yourself sick.


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## PaulfromNWOnt (Aug 20, 2010)

anthemj24 said:


> Yep. The market for older boats is not going to recover until a whole bunch of them meet the chainsaw. When I am turning down people who are trying to give me J24s with trailers, the market is really bad. If you like old boats, you have to start looking at this market like manna from heaven. Go ahead and enjoy, but don't stock up or you will get yourself sick.


Where do you live, and how much notice do you need for me to come pick one up.


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## PaulfromNWOnt (Aug 20, 2010)

I'm more serious then not BTW. Depending on distance.


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## anthemj24 (Aug 24, 2011)

PaulfromNWOnt said:


> I'm more serious then not BTW. Depending on distance.


Paul, sent you a PM, but the two boats I have I am keeping. I turned down the two offers for free boats. If you look, they are out there though.


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## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)

The (5-ton!) 27 foot sloop was wooden and had rot in some of the frames, otherwise I might have bid on it. The 30 foot wooden double ender sloop had a rotten bulkhead and who knows what else wrong with it. I'm surprised it sold for so much.


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## AUspiciousAU (Sep 1, 2011)

Maybe obama will do a cash for clunkers programs for boats.

This has been an interesting thread. I'm in the market right now, provided I keep my job. I haven't thought about auctions, but definitely don't want a project boat and would like to have a thorough inspection done before I buy. When you buy at an auction, is it pretty much "as is" or buyer beware type stuff?


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## PaulfromNWOnt (Aug 20, 2010)

anthemj24 said:


> Paul, sent you a PM, but the two boats I have I am keeping. I turned down the two offers for free boats. If you look, they are out there though.


PM received. Thank you very much Anthem.


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## w1651 (May 2, 2010)

It's a buyers market. I got this boat in January of this year for 2800.00 from a charity. 1972 Conyplex Contest 33 hull #106. It needs a lot of work but I am very happy with a boat that can go anywhere. 
It had five sails, pressure water system, all kinds of parts and inventory. It does need a lot of work though. It has a locked up engine, it needs a new head, and to have everything bedded and beefed up on deck. A coat of paint wouldn't hurt either.


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## lajimo (Sep 5, 2011)

Add Content


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

More fun for the "SAILORS" at a good price. What a great time to get into sailing!


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## NaviGsr (Sep 17, 2009)

AUspiciousAU said:


> Maybe obama will do a cash for clunkers programs for boats.


Why oh why oh why would anyone want that? 

The Cash for Clunkers program destroyed tens of thousands of perfectly good cars and encouraged people to replaced them with disposable crap.

Can you imagine everyone trading in their Cape Dorys and Albergs for Hunters and Macgregors?
uke


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

NaviGsr said:


> .....Can you imagine everyone trading in their Cape Dorys and Albergs for Hunters and Macgregors?
> uke


I could see them advancing the program if the US govt owned the majority of Hunter and MacGregor.......... They don't have enough union labor to interest the govt, however.......


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## w1651 (May 2, 2010)

revarnished seat 1st coat | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

The share in flikr didn't work real well so here is the link. The picks are of the boat, repairs needed and done as well as my sewing station concieved on the fly. I need a better heavier duty sewing machine to sew sails though.


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## w1651 (May 2, 2010)

If you want to grab a boat to sailing and or cruising you couldn't pick a better time to get one. You may have to work on it a bit but remember that it tends to cost less outside the United States. I am planning on going to central America to get a lot of the maintenance done instead of doing it here.


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

The market has bifurcated - boats appealing to the true wealthy continue to sell well. However, boats for the merely prosperous are languishing.


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## LauderBoy (Mar 15, 2010)

kilby said:


> That generation is slowly getting off the water with no replacements in sight. I would not consider a boat if I had $2,500 per month mortgage payments like so many 30's and 40's have now.


Yeah. The life path these days is you have to go to college for a decent job, so you sink 40-100k into loans for that. Meet a girl there or shortly after and sink another 25k into the wedding. Do the apartment thing until you're ready to have kids and then sink 200-300k into a home that's in a good school district. Pre-school will run you 1k+ a month and you're a bad parent today if you skip it(wonder how I survived without it?). Family health insurance can run about 500-1k per month too.

Monthly boat payments + slip fees + maintenance isn't going to happen when you only have 10 paid vacation days a year to enjoy your boat and since you have set fixed loan/house/insurance/etc payments due each month, you can't take any extended time off.

Living like the above you're pretty much limited to weekend outings and toys you can fit in your garage and tow behind your SUV.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

The boat market is very much like the housing market at this time...IMHO...FWIW...

Yes, it's a buyers market. Lot's of people are looking for one of these great deals. First they have to sell what they have. They paid XXX and they want to get what they put into it so they can upgrade at a lower price. So, they put something on the market that won't sell in the price range they are asking.

This leaves the market flooded with things that may never sell and forces those who really need to sell now to take whatever they can get.

No shortage of people hoping to get lucky.


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## Yado (Jan 3, 2004)

*Young People and Sailing*

One option to make it more enticing: Access to affordable and functional boat ramps, along with an overhead bar to help raise the mast would make it less complicated than paying a yard or renting a slip.
Even if you can find a ramp that is long/short/steep/deep enough to handle your trailer sailor, the real limiting factor to trailer sailing is raising the mast without the help of a crew.
Some boat yards used to let you toss a line over a bar or an old lift to help leverage the mast up. That made it so much easier, and cheaper, to take the boat from the driveway and use it for a day or a weekend.
Makes it a more spontaneous activity providing spur-of-the-moment-fun.


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## dnf777 (Jun 23, 2007)

LauderBoy said:


> Yeah. The life path these days is you have to go to college for a decent job, so you sink 40-100k into loans for that. Meet a girl there or shortly after and sink another 25k into the wedding. Do the apartment thing until you're ready to have kids and then sink 200-300k into a home that's in a good school district. Pre-school will run you 1k+ a month and you're a bad parent today if you skip it(wonder how I survived without it?). Family health insurance can run about 500-1k per month too.
> 
> Monthly boat payments + slip fees + maintenance isn't going to happen when you only have 10 paid vacation days a year to enjoy your boat and since you have set fixed loan/house/insurance/etc payments due each month, you can't take any extended time off.
> 
> Living like the above you're pretty much limited to weekend outings and toys you can fit in your garage and tow behind your SUV.


Yeah, pass the hemlock....

Time and money are often mutually exclusive of one another. And when they do team up, they're nowhere to be found!


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

WDSchock said:


> The market has bifurcated - boats appealing to the true wealthy continue to sell well. However, boats for the merely prosperous are languishing.


All US markets are in this condition. As the nation's wealth concentrates more and more in the hands of fewer and fewer, only products that interest this market segment move. Unfortunately there aren't enough of them to underwrite a prosperous national economy.


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

Yado said:


> One option to make it more enticing: Access to affordable and functional boat ramps, along with an overhead bar to help raise the mast would make it less complicated than paying a yard or renting a slip.
> Even if you can find a ramp that is long/short/steep/deep enough to handle your trailer sailor, the real limiting factor to trailer sailing is raising the mast without the help of a crew.
> Some boat yards used to let you toss a line over a bar or an old lift to help leverage the mast up. That made it so much easier, and cheaper, to take the boat from the driveway and use it for a day or a weekend.
> Makes it a more spontaneous activity providing spur-of-the-moment-fun.



Smithville Lake in Missouri near Kansas City has exactly this: a utility-type pole with a yard and a block and tackle right near the gate. Hoist your mast, pay your ten bucks ($35.00 annual) and go sailing. 8,000 acres, too many big powerboats, but a lot of young people sail it anyway.


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## nissantwa (Sep 15, 2009)

*free sailboats*

I've been offered a few too. Classic plastic. I took 2 Catalina 22's but after I've put $500 in them to refurbish, can't find any buyers at $850. Also offered a Coronado 25? for free but that's bigger money. Harbormaster has lien sales with few bidders. This is on the San Francisco Bay Peninsula. Since slip fees equal a car payment, I can understand reluctant owners.


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## sfchallenger (May 17, 2011)

I bought a boat last year from a broker that had originally been listed over 120k. Out of state seller, clearly ready to dump it, was listed at 40k when I bought it. I paid 30. It has some issues, but it also has new standing rigging, reasonable sails, and a solid engine. I live on board and I'm hoping to have it in good enough shape to go cruising for the long term in the next few years. I knew I had the sickness when, while cleaning my boat, I started thinking about buying a sailing dinghy to screw around with.

Buyer's market fo sho.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

*C&C 30 MK1 Almost Free*

I picked up a C&C 30 MK1 last week for almost free. Needs a little work Has 7 sails in great shape, has a yanmar 2Gm diesel runs great no smoking tapping or spewing water. Soles are delaminated needs some running rigging and a bottom job. But for almost free I'm there. I have a nice boat that needs a little TLC. It's on a mooring, so I can afford some time to put the effort into her. She is not far from sail away condition. The last owner tried for 7 years to sell her for a fair asking price and finely gave up. I was in the right place with money. Very little money,


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## ur_other_port (Dec 15, 2011)

Can anyone point me in the direction to one of these auctions in the South Florida area? My wife and I are looking to get a starter boat. Or better yet one of those free boats!!


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

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ur_other_port said:


> Can anyone point me in the direction to one of these auctions in the South Florida area? My wife and I are looking to get a starter boat. Or better yet one of those free boats!!


hear hear.

I am looking for a beat up classic plastic live aboard myself, 30' or bigger.

Where do I find out about these deals besides Craigslist? Is talking to the harbor master a good idea? How do i find out about auctions? (almost all the boats on govdeals are power boats)


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

The best way to find the deals is to just Google the boat manufacturer and size. it's that easy.

Gary


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

I got mine on e-buy...charity auction...in the water...sailable...

But, you don't often get to "pre examine" the boat other than the description...

Pay your money, take your chance...

But the 15hp 4 stroke outboard that came with is worth more than the $750 I paid for the boat...


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

In many locations throughout the U.S. there are organizations that have boats donated to them. In some instances, organizations such as the Chesapeake Bay Foundation's Living Classrooms, located in Baltimore's Inner Harbor, sell these boats as is to garner funds that keep their prospective organizations operating. I purchased a 1978 Catalina 27 from Living Classrooms six years ago. The A-4 inboard would turn over, but would not start. The boat was structurely sound, had a new mast, the standing rigging was in fair shape, running gear was old but still in good condition, had 5 sails, and all the extras, including PFDs. The cost was $2,000, and after some minor repairs to the A4 and lots of elbow grease expended in cleaning off several years of grime and mildew, the boat shined like a brand-new penny. It sailed great, I got 5 years out of it, and a young couple in Baltimore purchased it from me and it's currently being sailed in the Patapsco area. The last time I was at Living Classrooms they had about a half-dozen boats, all of which were in condition ranging from very poor to mediocre. All of these boats were marina derelicts donated to the Bay Foundation for tax write-offs.

For a first boat, one that a younger person doesn't mind putting some work into, it can be a good deal. As with any purchase, though, I highly recommend having the boat surveyed before laying down your hard-earned cash. Many of these boats have been sitting around for up to a decade, some have rotten, balsa or plywood cores, and I saw a couple boats sitting at a marina with for-sale signs on them that were actually sitting on the bottom and filled with water. Buyer beware would be an understatement under these circumstances.

Good Luck,

Gary


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## tra (Dec 25, 2010)

To w1651: I recently bought a donated Contest 27. It was located on the North Eastern Chesapeake Bay. 'Brought it around to the Potomac in four easy days. Near new Westerkeke 13 hp and near new sails. It's not an investment, it's my bucket list boat. My son can unload it after I'm gone. I'm still inventoring gear. All improvements will be cosmetic. If you're a seller, good luck. If you're a buyer, remember, wood rots, steel rusts and fiberglass waits for better days. MUSICAL CHAIRS. No new market. I'm just as happy with my 1971 boat as I would be with a $200,000 2012 boat. Happier. I predict many of todays fiberglass boats will be around and usable in the 22nd century.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

sfchallenger said:


> I bought a boat last year from a broker that had originally been listed over 120k. Out of state seller, clearly ready to dump it, was listed at 40k when I bought it. I paid 30. It has some issues, but it also has new standing rigging, reasonable sails, and a solid engine. I live on board and I'm hoping to have it in good enough shape to go cruising for the long term in the next few years. I knew I had the sickness when, while cleaning my boat, I started thinking about buying a sailing dinghy to screw around with.
> 
> Buyer's market fo sho.


Would you mind mentioning the model and year of your boat?


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## tra (Dec 25, 2010)

1971 Contest 27' Hull 126, Made by Conyplex in Netherlands. The boats they make today start well into six figures. I paid $2,000. Look up Contest 27s and you'll see then in Europe asking above $15,000 US. Go beyond the local Craigs List and go All Craigs List to gather intelligence on the type sailboat you are looking for. Type in (Pearson Yacht). You'll get them all over US. Lurk on Ebay. Boat Trader etc. There is some panic out there. Contact marinas. They are loaded with boats who's owners have quit making slip payments. Offer to keep it there and pay rent for the season if it's free. "mnay work" It costs a lot of money to destroy these things. 

Old used boats aren't selling. It's the buyers turn to make out. Price On mine... I said "I know it's less than you want but I'll give you cash $2,000 right here and now". I looked for maintenace deal breakers before I made my offer. It wasn't a thorough survey, but I wanted a solid deck, no balsa core, no mast compression, engine and trans worked, no overheating. Standing rigging "looked good" Great sails. The boat had not been "sunk on land" Incidently I winterized it today and removed the speedometer through hull so If we get a four foot snowfall and the melting snow makes it below it below water won't reach the floorboards. "sunk on land" That's a deal killer. Look for water stains on the woodwork above the cabin sole in the pictures. "All boats stored on land should have a hole in the their bottom" Remove the hose and open the lowest through hull. Prevent rot and delamionation.


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## TomandKarens34 (Dec 4, 2007)

To return to the topic, the sailboat market is similar to any other " Toy " market. Housing, food, transportation, are all necessities. "Toys" are similar to antiques, sports cars and such. Collectables... Discretionary items...
The middle class almost is out of business in my opinion. While we are not cut off from easy credit, all of us are justifiably wary of the difficulty, effort, and TIME, required to pay off debt. I emphasize time, because for the baby boomers, it's passing all too quickly. With every asset shrinking, the devalued house, a 401K that looks like a 201K, a very shaky employment picture, and the threat of massive inflation... Add to this, the sinking awareness we probably should have been saving a bit more than we did during the last 15 years or so. Justifying a heavy duty purchase with large on going maintenance costs, haul outs, storage, etc. is increasingly difficult.
There are many people who went out cruising and planned to sell the boat to have enough to re-establish themselves on land. That is a plan that has not worked out well. Yachtworld is littered with these boats. 38-44 feet, 30 years old, leaky teak decks and a diesel with 6000 hours on it... $100,000 ? Hmmmmm.
The 40+ year old folks who finally could buy a bigger boat, say something 37 feet or more, have good reason to hold back. The middle class is correctly fearful of the capital investment and costs that come with a larger boat. They are aware that when they are done sailing their 30 year old boat, and it has become a 40 year old boat, it may have negative value and be unsellable at any price. Poor people do not buy boats so I think we can leave them out of the equation.
As I see it, this is the market. Older boats, less buyers, increasing costs of ownership, frightening economic picture. I'm surprised as many sell that do. However, when the cost to benefit ratio seems attractive enough, most of us would pull the trigger if we could. I'm waiting for a 40 footer with enough life left in her to carry me off for a few years too. The price will be about $900 / foot. Newish diesel, solid decks, standing rigging less than ten years old, water maker, good sails too. I might even find this boat. I got three years and no pressure. I don't find it... Oh well. I'll just sail what I got.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

tra said:


> 1971 Contest 27' Hull 126, Made by Conyplex in Netherlands.


Looks like you got a bargain. Congradulations


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

I've come to the conclusion that most of the boats on Yacht World are not really for sale.

When a product sits on the shelf for more than a year and does not sell it means that it is way over priced. If the product is not marked down to a selling point then it is not really for sale.

When someone puts a product on the market at the same price as similar products that have been sitting on the shelf for over a year...

I've been looking and only the REALLY good deals sell fast. Everything else just sits and sits and sits.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

TomandKarens34 said:


> To return to the topic, the sailboat market is similar to any other " Toy " market. Housing, food, transportation, are all necessities. "Toys" are similar to antiques, sports cars and such. Collectables... Discretionary items...
> 
> *The middle class almost is out of business in my opinion. While we are not cut off from easy credit, all of us are justifiably wary of the difficulty, effort, and TIME, required to pay off debt. I emphasize time, because for the baby boomers, it's passing all too quickly. With every asset shrinking, the devalued house, a 401K that looks like a 201K, a very shaky employment picture, and the threat of massive inflation... Add to this, the sinking awareness we probably should have been saving a bit more than we did during the last 15 years or so. Justifying a heavy duty purchase with large on going maintenance costs, haul outs, storage, etc. is increasingly difficult.*
> 
> ...


Excellent post!

I think that your analysis of the middle-class situation is spot on!

There are a couple of crazies out there (like me) that buy boats regardless of their economic outlook (I was out of work at the time - but I paid cash). The rationale is do it NOW, while you are young and healthy enough, AND before inflation hits us like a tsunami (and I believe that it will).


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

RobGallagher said:


> I've come to the conclusion that most of the boats on Yacht World are not really for sale......


True. This has happened to me twice.

The first was just an odd situation where I called on a new listing, only to find out she was enroute to the Caribbean to close on a sale. Reportedly, someone paid full listing, which was way over market. I didn't believe it, but it was delisted the following month. In the meantime, the broker tried to sell me every other boat he had listed.

The second time I called on a boat that was listed well below market. I tried to jump on it, but the broker kept giving me the run around. Eventually, it too was delisted. Then it reappeared about a year later for a new price, which was close to market. When I reconnected, the broker admitted it was originally listed to devalue the asset in a divorce, but under strict orders not to sell it.


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## utchuckd (Apr 4, 2010)

So if I go pavement pounding, marina to marina, looking for a boat it's gonna be cheaper (asking price) than the yachtworld listings? Or is it more being in the right place at the right time to find a good buy?


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## Me and Boo (Oct 29, 2011)

Adding another Chesapeake Bay non-profit to look at for very inexpensive boats. Chesapeake Region Accessible Boating (CRAB) I bought my Catalina 30 from them.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

I think it's more a matter of having a good idea of what you want, being patient and having the cash available to pounce when the right deal shows up. I searched for 2 years to find our 40. 
Btw, I found it on Yacht world and watched it for a year before I made an offer.
Jim


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

utchuckd said:


> So if I go pavement pounding, marina to marina, looking for a boat it's gonna be cheaper (asking price) than the yachtworld listings? Or is it more being in the right place at the right time to find a good buy?


The good thing about taking your time and looking at a number of boats, while you read the Gear and Maintenance and the Boat Buyers and Sellers subforums here, is that you will learn what to look for and what to avoid.

Rather than jump in your car and start driving to marinas, I would narrow the field by looking on eBay and Craigslist to discover what is available. Start asking the sellers questions, then pick the few boats that interest you and start inspecting them. You will learn a lot about the market by inspecting the available boats that interest you.

All too often, there are posts on sailnet by novices who think they have found the boat of their dreams, and it becomes clear from their post that they really do not understand the value of what interests them. For instance, they like a particular boat because the topsides have shiny paint on them, instead of determining the condition of the inboard engine or the sails or the keel bolts or the bulkheads or the hull/deck joint, or a host of other important issues on an older boat that should determine market value.

Take your time and read the forums. You should be in no rush to buy a boat.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

eherlihy said:


> Excellent post!
> 
> I think that your analysis of the middle-class situation is spot on!
> 
> There are a couple of crazies out there (like me) that buy boats regardless of their economic outlook (I was out of work at the time - but I paid cash). The rationale is do it NOW, while you are young and healthy enough, AND before inflation hits us like a tsunami (and I believe that it will).


When that inflation hits (and I've been saying since '08 that it's coming) boat will be GOOD to own. When inflation is high, physical assets are what you want, not paper. Back in the late 70's - early 80's many boatbuilders went under because they took fixed price contracts on future boats and then resin went up along with everything else. My first mortgage was for 13.5% and I knew people who were at 19%. We all survived with our assets intact.

Back then, people couldn't buy boats fast enough - if they waited a couple of months the price would be up 5% - 10%. If I owned acreage or a warehouse I'd be buying GOB's dirt cheap or picking them up for free right now and storing them against that day.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

jimrafford said:


> I think it's more a matter of having a good idea of what you want, being patient and having the cash available to pounce when the right deal shows up. I searched for 2 years to find our 40.
> Btw, I found it on Yacht world and watched it for a year before I made an offer.
> Jim


Agree totally. I always monitor the listings - just daydreaming but I looked seriously for about 3 years before finding my Columbia. By chance I looked at Yachtworld one morning and it had just been listed - about 1/2 hour before. It was a dirt cheap project - it *"demonstrated a high degree of deferred maintenance"* in the words of the listing. I jumped on it - had the deposit wire transferred within 2 hours. By the end of the day the broker had *17* backup offers on it - I saw the file.

6 months before I had missed out on another dirt cheap boat - a Yankee 38 with a brand new Yanmar. They were asking little more than the cost of the engine. I "thought about it" for a couple of days too long and it was whisked out from under me.

Morale - Strike while the iron is hot. Don't "watch" a specific boat or deal unless you can let it go.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Tell me guys, and this question can be addressed to us Britons too :

Why did you allow successive governments to run up these enormous debts?

It's very near insolvency for Uncle Sam now, and not much better here.

Boats will get a lot cheaper then.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

It's all about not being in debt: governments or individuals. It's a concept that is very easy to understand. They used to call it "living within one's means," or "personal responsibility," or "fiscal responsibility," or "self sufficiency," all terms that have been forgotten, replaced by terms like "consumerism," and "second mortgage (to buy all that unneeded crap)," and "8 bedrooms, four full baths."


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with debt per se. My accountant has an expression - "there's good debt and bad debt". Good debt is incurred to purchase assets and investments and it's cost is essentially tax deductible. Bad debt is used to purchase toys and fun.

Few people could save enough to buy a house - mortgages are essential. The same is true for government - there is nothing wrong with taking on debt to build a hydro dam or a major bridge or highway - capital projects.

The problem arises when debt is used for expenses - vacations on the card, welfare programs financed with debt etc.

My wife and I have nearly always been way in debt and still are - we have used it judiciously to acquire assets, kept a mortgage on a paid for house to buy investments and so forth. It works very well as long as you are *PRUDENT* with it - that's a word that few people even know these days.


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## tra (Dec 25, 2010)

I agree with James Wilson, don't just go with cosmetics. In the case on my Contest 27 cosmetics were sadly lacking. Like "Collecting Classic Cars" It was a "barn find" (sort of). My two companions, who inspected the boat combine fifty years professional boating experience. We all agreed it was stupid to buy a boat with a keel for occasional afternoons sailing around, Look at the boats that never leave the dock. "Get one that goes on a trailer!!! "But if I you must buy a boat that needs a slip, dummy, this is the boat." So I'll spend the winter reading Hiscock, Roth, Graham Moirtesseier and others from decades ago, do some cosmetics when I can and let someone else spend 500 K on a "64 Shelby Cobra. I'll put my trailer boat up for sail this sping. Life is good


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## ArcherBowman (Jul 1, 2009)

junkrig said:


> Smithville Lake in Missouri near Kansas City has exactly this: a utility-type pole with a yard and a block and tackle right near the gate. Hoist your mast, pay your ten bucks ($35.00 annual) and go sailing. 8,000 acres, too many big powerboats, but a lot of young people sail it anyway.


I've been out on Smithville lake 3 - 4 times. Twice in a '66 Sea Snark. And twice in a square - rigged Norse Knarr!

They quarter just fine. Don't let anyone tell you different. I've DONE it.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

SloopJonB said:


> There is nothing wrong with debt per se. My accountant has an expression - "there's good debt and bad debt". Good debt is incurred to purchase assets and investments and it's cost is essentially tax deductible. Bad debt is used to purchase toys and fun.
> 
> Few people could save enough to buy a house - mortgages are essential. The same is true for government - there is nothing wrong with taking on debt to build a hydro dam or a major bridge or highway - capital projects.
> 
> ...


While there may be some acceptable asset value percentage levels of debt for certain things, the scope of the entire idea of debt is totally out of control. The non-productive, blood-sucking industries of the non-working classes, the invention of derivative "assets", the casino nature of what used to be the stock market, and the abandonment of fiscal responsibility have all been fueled by the debt industry. Our entire cultural idea of debt has been twisted into a destructive monster. Debt should be viewed as a utilitarian function, not the all-encompassing, bloated, fictitious wealth creator it has become. There is no good debt, only varying levels of bad.

This is entirely off the original topic and should probably move to the off-topic forum.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*Yes, I am a nut case...*



SloopJonB said:


> When that inflation hits (and I've been saying since '08 that it's coming) boat will be GOOD to own. When inflation is high, physical assets are what you want, not paper. Back in the late 70's - early 80's many boatbuilders went under because they took fixed price contracts on future boats and then resin went up along with everything else. My first mortgage was for 13.5% and I knew people who were at 19%. We all survived with our assets intact.
> 
> Back then, people couldn't buy boats fast enough - if they waited a couple of months the price would be up 5% - 10%. If I owned acreage or a warehouse I'd be buying GOB's dirt cheap or picking them up for free right now and storing them against that day.


Which brings me to WHY I bought the boat for cash, while out of work.

My home (which I still have a mortgage on) lost 35% of it's value when the housing bubble burst, and I lost my job. While I was still above water on the house, and I figured that I could pay the mortgage off from savings, I thought that I should take a longer view.

However, dealing with house maintenance, increasing taxes (of all sorts), increasing utilities, etc. made me think; "if the worst comes, would I rather be stuck here, or would I rather be able to get the heck out of Dodge on a boat?" It can be a lot cheaper to live on a boat, and I may never get the chance again.


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## TomandKarens34 (Dec 4, 2007)

JonB makes some interesting points. He is one of my favorite posters. However, I am going to disagree with my friend here. I respect his experience and know he is accurate in what he says about the 70's. I was there too. We are experiencing inflation right now. You only have to look at your grocery bill to see this. Bear with me here, this is about sailboat prices. You just have to read a bit to get there...
Gasoline is up 80% or so over the last five years and shows no sign of going back down. It never will. At the same time, property and the possessions one normally collects, have devalued over this same time. What the heck is going on here ?? If we have inflation, everything goes up, right ? Well, the collapse of a stable middle class is causing this.
Since the 70's, this country has lost over 8 million stable jobs in manufacturing. The kind of job where you could count on many consistent years of employment, at three times minimum wage or better. Stable jobs allow people to make long term borrowing commitments. The planners who think that the service industries can make up for this loss just don't get it. You cannot sell each other pizza and do each other's laundry to have an economy. One only has to look at all the empty chain restaurants coast to coast to see this is true. These are not long term jobs. The rush to buy farmland last year, doubling the per acre cost, indicates the strategic planning of folks who have a dozen or so millions to preserve and spend more on financial planning than we can imagine. They bought farmland because there is nothing else secure to invest in, for the long term.
OK, so what has this got to do with sailboat prices??? I'm getting there. In the time from '96 to 2006, things were good and credit was easy. The calm before the storm. People used tactical, i.e. short term planning. There was little effort spent looking at the strategic, i.e. long term situation. I think we all knew it wasn't going to last, and we all got what we could while we still could. What the heck. We survived the Dot Com bubble, and before that, the savings and loan crisis. How bad could the housing bubble be ? People bought expensive boats, houses, and whatever else they saw as having long term value. They expected inflation, so they got it now.
The end of the middle class brought this ability to service credit, to an end. In an environment of fear, people hoard and do not lend. House loans are at an all time low interest rate. Try to qualify for one working at a chain restaurant. Can't be done. So the people who normally would get a loan for a used boat, for various reasons, will not be getting that loan. If you cannot say with certainty that you can pay the loan, you can't get it. All of a sudden, we have a cash economy. Nobody keeps cash, just as JonB has said. Cash shrinks if you don't buy stuff with it. But now, the stuff you buy with cash shrinks too ! Because we are all cash short. We are used to walking down to the bank and getting the cash to purchase this next item, whatever it is. Now we have to do this with what's in our pockets and that, my friends, is almost nothing. We have been conditioned by years of experience not to have cash and to leverage our credit to get ahead. That is a model that is no longer valid. This is exactly why the sailboat market has "sunk" if you pardon the metaphor. 
There are other factors as well. Demographics, fewer sailors and such. The actual value of a dollar in terms of how much oil/gold/cheese, whatever, that you can buy with it. Fear, and the fear is justified ! The Universe is 14 billion years old, the debt is 14 trillion. The government has borrowed $1000/year, SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME. If that doesn't scare you, you are a rock ! 
Those factors and more, can nuance the causation but cannot change the results. If it weren't for girls, I think I'd crawl into a hole and stay there. What sells boats, is the belief that there is something better to come, that life is worth living, and is most certainly is ! The girls, the children, and that next sunrise over the water, are all worth whatever we can do to make it all happen. So we all collect the deposit cans, work a little overtime, and turn down the thermostat, to make it all happen.


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## anthemj24 (Aug 24, 2011)

I think there is a bit of an over abundance of doom and gloom in this thread. There are plenty of bright spots in the economy, they just aren't the parts of our economy we are accustomed to seeing do well. The good jobs are not working at fast food joints, but they are not in manufacturing either. The good jobs now are at Google, Facebook, and Amazon, and they are not paying 3 times minimum wage, they are paying 6-8 times minimum wage. not to mention that the world itself is a far better place to live in now than in 1970. For women the glass ceiling has largely been broken, for minorities the effects of racism have been dramatically reduced, gay people can actually live their lives without fear of being discovered, and we can all access vast amounts of information with a few clicks of a mouse. In 1970, you would have had to overpay an encyclopedia salesman for a room full of books that represent a fraction of what is freely available on wikipedia, and as if that is not bad enough, the books would be totally outdated in a few short years.

90% of the issues with the boat market can be traced to two things:

1) demographics
2) durability

Our natural born population has been stagnant for some time now, with much of our population growth coming from immigration. New immigrants may not be huge buyers of boats, that should not be surprising. As our population levels stabilize, we should see a leveling out of the "decline" of sailing. Will sailing ever be a major sport or recreational activity? Probably not, it is time consuming and expensive, but that has always been true. Sailing was always a niche sport/activity and in the US is likely to always be that. 

The other issue is durability. My primary ride now is a J24 built in 1978, and it is every bit as functional now as it was in 1978, maybe a bit better with the new laminate headsails. I can not think of a single other consumer good you could say that about. Cars, televisions, skis, computers, and stereos that are 30+ years old are all pretty useless except maybe as collectibles. Now while they are extremely durable, they are not indestructible and as more of them get chainsawed up, the supply/demand ratio should even out and a semblance of sanity will be restored to the market. Just don't expect it to happen overnight. 

Really people, if you all think things are so bad now, I would say it is more a reflection of yourself and your own mindset, than a realistic assessment of the world and nation we live in.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

ur_other_port said:


> Can anyone point me in the direction to one of these auctions in the South Florida area? My wife and I are looking to get a starter boat. Or better yet one of those free boats!!


Me TOO. I would really like a trailer sailer on the Texas coast.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

TomandKarens34 said:


> The Universe is 14 billion years old, the debt is 14 trillion. The government has borrowed $1000/year, SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME.


Love the metaphor - reminds of one Reagan had about the difference between a million and a billion - can't remember it exactly but it was along the lines of "a $million is a stack of bills 50 feet high, a $billion is a stack 10 miles high".

I think your post is pretty defeatist though - things aren't THAT bad. If you stop looking at the reports, newscasts and numbers and look around you empirically, you get a very different picture. How many people do you know personally that are chronically unemployed or have lost everything? They are definitely out there but the middle class is still around in great numbers.

The boat market IMHO is a typical, temporary response to bad economic times - I expect vacations are down, cottage sales etc. - all toys and expensive luxuries. It WILL come back - for the simple reason there will be another revolution if it doesn't. 

P.S. thanks for the kind words.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

Don't mean to revive an old thread "BUT" I have an update. 
I am the the proud new owner on a 1981 C&C 30 MK1 in fair to good shape. I followed the advice of this thread and tracked down the owner of a yacht with some hull growth on her and out-dated documenting. The owner was pleased that I contacted them. They had no idea what they were going to do. The husband was no longer able to sail and the lady never did. So I got the boat for a song. And "sure" it needs some work. I have spent the last 5 weekends on her. Working on the thru-hulls that are stuck, Oil change to the Yanmar engine, New impeller, pulled all cushions out for cleaning and zipper work. Pulled the delaminated holly-teak ply wood sole out. This week, I will have it hauled out cleaned and painted. While there, I will work on the wiring for the instruments "7" St-50 wind, speed, depth, apparent-true wind etc. I will clean out the fresh water holding tanks and the poop holding tank. I will rework the marine head. So, yea there is a lot to do. But ya know what? I am having the time of my life. I am so excited with this project. Most of it I can do my self, and the good part is that I am on a mooring that I now own. She will have the Feb hull cleaning and and painted be dried in. C&C 30 MK1 The begining of a dream - YouTube
So recap anybody looking for a free boat there all over the place. They are not all in bad shape and will need a lot of TLC. I paid $2,500 dollar for her. It will cost another $2,500. To get it ready. That's $5,000. For a $23,000. I know I know. To you guys out there with all the money that you ask your self what's your time worth? Do I want to spend all my time repairing float switches in the grimy bilge or do I want to sail. Well to us normal folks, it's a way to enjoy the day on the water and follow our dream with little or no investment but time. Any body want some help on how I did send me a p.m and I will give you step by step on how to get a boat. The rest will be up to you. Thanks to everyone who gave me advice on this forum. IT WORKED!!!!!!
See ya in the breeze, C&C 30 MK1 drive by - YouTube


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

ltgoshen said:


> Don't mean to revive an old thread "BUT" I have an update.
> I am the the proud new owner on a 1981 C&C 30 MK1 in fair to good shape. I followed the advice of this thread and tracked down the owner of a yacht with some hull growth on her and out-dated documenting. The owner was pleased that I contacted them. They had no idea what they were going to do. The husband was no longer able to sail and the lady never did. So I got the boat for a song. And "sure" it needs some work. I have spent the last 5 weekends on her. Working on the thru-hulls that are stuck, Oil change to the Yanmar engine, New impeller, pulled all cushions out for cleaning and zipper work. Pulled the delaminated holly-teak ply wood sole out. This week, I will have it hauled out cleaned and painted. While there, I will work on the wiring for the instruments "7" St-50 wind, speed, depth, apparent-true wind etc. I will clean out the fresh water holding tanks and the poop holding tank. I will rework the marine head. So, yea there is a lot to do. But ya know what? I am having the time of my life. I am so excited with this project. Most of it I can do my self, and the good part is that I am on a mooring that I now own. She will have the Feb hull cleaning and and painted be dried in. C&C 30 MK1 The begining of a dream - YouTube
> So recap anybody looking for a free boat there all over the place. They are not all in bad shape and will need a lot of TLC. I paid $2,500 dollar for her. It will cost another $2,500. To get it ready. That's $5,000. For a $23,000. I know I know. To you guys out there with all the money that you ask your self what's your time worth? Do I want to spend all my time repairing float switches in the grimy bilge or do I want to sail. Well to us normal folks, it's a way to enjoy the day on the water and follow our dream with little or no investment but time. Any body want some help on how I did send me a p.m and I will give you step by step on how to get a boat. The rest will be up to you. Thanks to everyone who gave me advice on this forum. IT WORKED!!!!!!
> See ya in the breeze, C&C 30 MK1 drive by - YouTube


Congrats! Sounds like it will be a great boat for you.

Whatever gets you on the water, works!


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Ha, this tread looks a lot more promising than the replies to the thread i made 

For those that know what im talking about: I just arived in Ft Launderdale today. Tomorrow i start buying myself a phone, camera, measuring tape and some more details to get started. I printed about 30 boats from sailboatlisting in florida in the 5000-15000$ and 27 - 35 ft range that are listed as "good" or "excelent" condition. So thats where i will be starting at. 

For those that didnt read my tread: I will still be happy to hear from people in this area that would like to help me in person to buy a boat since i don't have experience yet to know what to look at !


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## benjmin (Nov 1, 2011)

Have fun! I remember the joy of looking for a boat to buy. 
Hope I never have to do it again. Ugh!


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Arjen said:


> Ha, this tread looks a lot more promising than the replies to the thread i made
> 
> For those that know what im talking about: I just arived in Ft Launderdale today. Tomorrow i start buying myself a phone, camera, measuring tape and some more details to get started. I printed about 30 boats from sailboatlisting in florida in the 5000-15000$ and 27 - 35 ft range that are listed as "good" or "excelent" condition. So thats where i will be starting at.
> 
> For those that didnt read my tread: I will still be happy to hear from people in this area that would like to help me in person to buy a boat since i don't have experience yet to know what to look at !


I'll be happy to help you but I'm in Connecticut.
Our boats are generally in better shape but it is pretty miserable looking in the rain and snow and cold.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Congrats. The Water Rat had it right - "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."

As a matter of fact......


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

Yep, I was talking about the free boats about six months back. I read a few on here that actually thought the market would come back. It has not, and I still see free boats at some of the marinas. Also a LOT of lien sales. We're years out from the market coming back. Still seeing the higher priced boats falling down a few tiers on the price scale. 40' Formosas in good condition going for $29k...

We looked at a 48 foot steel boat last weekend. The marina wanted $6500 for her on a lien sale, but she needed more work then we were willing to put into her.

Still a great market for people to get into. At least it's a good time for those that could not normally buy a sailboat to get their feet wet. Oops, maybe that wasn't a good choice of words!


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## tra (Dec 25, 2010)

Sweet boat igoshen. My Contest 27's halliards looked like yours. I used messenger lines tied to the end and removed them, put them the washer in a MESH BAG bag with some Downey. soap and bleach and they look sorta brand new. Only took a couple minutes to remove and reinstall.

This localized global warming has given us some great weather in VA for working on boats. Of course Anchorage AK was 50 below this past weekend. 

Happy hunting Argen


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Arjen-
If you need the phone "locally", try MetroPCS. Great coverage and service in Florida, weaker network nationally, but in FL you'll get great unlimited prepaid plans from them.


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## melliott0352 (Jan 29, 2012)

A friend at work just closed on an older Oday twin screw power cruiser he bought for fishing for no more that 1/3rd of its going price of 2 years ago according to the surveyor he brought along. This was thru a broker and the boat is mint, wouldnt think it was more than several years old, not 20 plus. Only several hundred hours on engines and so clean you could eat off it. There are deals out there, but dont think you will buy low to sell at a profit. The resale market is tough. Inventory is not moving in the Northeast.


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## EJO (Jan 10, 2010)

Great you found a boat and yes working on a boat is part of owning a boat otherwise rent a charter WITH crew and have no fun. I agree the market is still tough and only a few old boats might move that have a 'good' name, but there are many Good Old Boats out there. As a matter of fact you should subscribe to G.O.B. many good articles on messing around in boats plus a great back log of articles especially for a popular boat like your C&C. An old boat is only as good as the PO took care of her.
As for Arjen take a look at mine (all freshwater) under "sailingtexas.com"


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

tomperanteau said:


> Yep, I was talking about the free boats about six months back. I read a few on here that actually thought the market would come back. It has not, and I still see free boats at some of the marinas. Also a LOT of lien sales. We're years out from the market coming back. Still seeing the higher priced boats falling down a few tiers on the price scale. 40' Formosas in good condition going for $29k...
> 
> We looked at a 48 foot steel boat last weekend. The marina wanted $6500 for her on a lien sale, but she needed more work then we were willing to put into her.
> 
> Still a great market for people to get into. At least it's a good time for those that could not normally buy a sailboat to get their feet wet. Oops, maybe that wasn't a good choice of words!


When do these lien sales generally happen? Should I just call local marinas and see what they have, or is there some kind of auction or listing or something?

This thread is giving me hope that I will find a liveaboard of at least 30' in my price range... 5K lol...


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## benjmin (Nov 1, 2011)

peterchech said:


> When do these lien sales generally happen? Should I just call local marinas and see what they have, or is there some kind of auction or listing or something?
> 
> This thread is giving me hope that I will find a liveaboard of at least 30' in my price range... 5K lol...


After having many yacht brokers laugh at me because of my low budget. A broker for "Certified Sales" in Charleston S.C. Found me my boat. It was floating at the docks, abandoned because the owner lost it for lack of money to pay bills. And the marina & company that cleans the bottoms had a lien on it. I paid the marina and bottom cleaners a small amount of money and the boat was mine.

So yes, call marina's. Call brokers.. Never hurts to ask... Lots of deals are word of mouth.

Or go look at certifiedsales website see if they have anything in stock.

Hope I was helpful....


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## tra (Dec 25, 2010)

The marina where I keep my boat has several abandoned boats. They just take up space and bring no income. Some have been there for several years. Most are "sunk on land" They are full of rancid water from rain and snow. The interior wood is rotten or delaminated. Things like cushions are useless. Cost to save the the boat is more than the boat is worth. The marina has to pay big bucks to get rid of the boat. It's hazardus waste. 

Having said that, I would go to marinas and look at boats in the storage yards. If the registration sticker is more than a year old, say 2010, I'd go to the office and ask. There may be a mechanic lien on the boat. You should dress and present your self as a pratical and responsible person. More than one person has adopted a boat and walked away when he found out how much work it became. Offer 6 mos or a years slip fee up front. That will surely get their attention.They know who's late on their rent. Make sure the marina allows you to work on your boat!

When I store my boat, the first thing I do after it's been set is pull the hose off the lowest through hull ball valve and open it. That way if a 4' snowfall and freezing temps hit my boat won't sink on land and become worthless. There are sites that will give a check list for your own survey, delaminated decks, rotted bulkheads, bad keelbolts, mechanical issues. bad sails. Happy hunting, I wish I could be there, it's fun.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

To get back to the op's question;

*YES*.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

And be gratefull if your a buyer in this market...


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## rrodak (Nov 14, 2011)

ltgoshen -

I am interested in the steps you took to recently purchase your boat. I tried to PM you, but I don't have the minumum posts yet.

Thanks for the info.



ltgoshen said:


> Don't mean to revive an old thread "BUT" I have an update.
> I am the the proud new owner on a 1981 C&C 30 MK1 in fair to good shape. I followed the advice of this thread and tracked down the owner of a yacht with some hull growth on her and out-dated documenting. The owner was pleased that I contacted them. They had no idea what they were going to do. The husband was no longer able to sail and the lady never did. So I got the boat for a song. And "sure" it needs some work. I have spent the last 5 weekends on her. Working on the thru-hulls that are stuck, Oil change to the Yanmar engine, New impeller, pulled all cushions out for cleaning and zipper work. Pulled the delaminated holly-teak ply wood sole out. This week, I will have it hauled out cleaned and painted. While there, I will work on the wiring for the instruments "7" St-50 wind, speed, depth, apparent-true wind etc. I will clean out the fresh water holding tanks and the poop holding tank. I will rework the marine head. So, yea there is a lot to do. But ya know what? I am having the time of my life. I am so excited with this project. Most of it I can do my self, and the good part is that I am on a mooring that I now own. She will have the Feb hull cleaning and and painted be dried in. C&C 30 MK1 The begining of a dream - YouTube
> So recap anybody looking for a free boat there all over the place. They are not all in bad shape and will need a lot of TLC. I paid $2,500 dollar for her. It will cost another $2,500. To get it ready. That's $5,000. For a $23,000. I know I know. To you guys out there with all the money that you ask your self what's your time worth? Do I want to spend all my time repairing float switches in the grimy bilge or do I want to sail. Well to us normal folks, it's a way to enjoy the day on the water and follow our dream with little or no investment but time. Any body want some help on how I did send me a p.m and I will give you step by step on how to get a boat. The rest will be up to you. Thanks to everyone who gave me advice on this forum. IT WORKED!!!!!!
> See ya in the breeze, C&C 30 MK1 drive by - YouTube


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

So tell us your buying secret and congratulations.


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## Passat (Oct 2, 2011)

The market is really bad. I recearched yachworld and found that in Europe sailboat prices already much lower than in USA, in average $15000 or more. The best example Grece and Croatia. It's better buy boat there, but it's not cheap to ship it here, unless you're experienced enough to buy and sail away. Any comments?


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

On the South of Europe is not "that bad" is worse and getting worse. The right time to buy a boat: more and more boats are for sale and some for more than 2 years.

Also a very bad time for most of the boat manufacturers

Regards

Paulo


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Passat said:


> Europe sailboat prices already much lower than in USA,


heh ? I was told by many that it is the opposite, and a very short look at prices in holland confirmed that.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

For old boats I guess the US is better. I was talking about boats with less than 15 years and particullarly for even newer boats.

Boats with 5 years are selling for about half the cost they cost now and almost half the cost the owners paid for them. Some of them are almost as new.

Regards

Paulo


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Passat said:


> The market is really bad. I recearched yachworld and found that in Europe sailboat prices already much lower than in USA, in average $15000 or more. The best example Grece and Croatia. It's better buy boat there, but it's not cheap to ship it here, unless you're experienced enough to buy and sail away. Any comments?


Thats because many of those boat are ex-charter boats and are beat to hell. Compare those boats in the South of Europe to the boats that leave the Moorings, Sunsail, or Barefoot fleets in the Caribbean.

The boats being sold in the USA are usually owners versions (less cabins, less heads) and are treated much better. Plus, in the northern usa, most of those boats are on the hard under covers for 1/2 - 2/3rds a year so they're practically 1/2 the age of boats left to bake in the sun in the South of Europe or Caribbean.

No free lunch in yachts, you get what you pay for...albeit at a depressed rate as of late.


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## mikel1 (Oct 19, 2008)

The proper response to the title of this thread is YES!


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

I received a letter today stating that the broker just recently sold an HC 38 and that they had such a "tremendous" response to it they developed a "STRONG" interest in the Hans Christian name, but due to the limited amount of Hans Christians on the market, they are contacting all HC owners (I assume documented boats) who may be interested in marketing their boat at this time.

Wife and I got a kick out of it.


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## neverknow (Feb 2, 2011)

We were at the Strictly Sail show at the navy pier in Chicago last weekend and got to talking with Bitchen Bob from Latitudes and Attitudes magazine. 

He said he was able to buy his Formosas 56 (Lost Soul) back from the guy he sold it to a few yrs back for half what he paid.


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## Passat (Oct 2, 2011)

Nice


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## neverknow (Feb 2, 2011)

I think the boating market all around is bad. I just saw a Carver 3227 just like ours sell for $12000 at auction and it was in great shape. That boat a few yrs ago was double that.

ELive Auction - Auction Details


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## joe beagle (Jul 4, 2015)

Hello,
While I have never registered until now, I am a frequent visitor, and appreciate the knowledge that many of you have.
I found this post while doing a google search on the sailboat market, and thought it might be worthwhile bumping it to the top to see how things look a couple of years down the road.
My impression is that things have not improved and maybe have gotten worse. Plastic classics that were bringing $12-15,000 a few years ago are going for $5,000-$6,000 or less.
Many wooden boats cannot be given away. 
Trailer sailors seem to be moving, but not all that briskly.
So, do any of you agree? And, will there be a recovery, or has the Golden Age of Everyman yachting passed us by?
(Sorry if this topic has already been recently revisited. I did a few searches, but nothing came up.)


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

The middle class is dying. The vast majority of people who have the money for a boat do not have the time to enjoy it. The few who have time and money generally want power. Sailors are a small fraction of an already small socioeconomic demographic. And that demographic will continue to shrink unless the political partisanship changes.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I track a variety of makes and models on Yachtworld, watching individual examples of these makes and models and in particular their asking prices, length of time on market, how the price of a particular boat goes down, and whether I see a, "under contract" show up. 

My sense is that all of the boats that I track went through a major correction in price (20-30%) perhaps 2-3 years ago, but since then these boats have been selling much more quickly, and that the prices have started creeping up again on individual models, yet even with the higher asking prices they still seem to be selling faster than a few years ago. 

That is borne out by broker friends as well. According to my broker friends, serious cruising boats like Valiants, Passports, Hallberg Rassey, and Pacific Seacraft seemed to have a strong continued market interest and seem to be holding their value a little better and selling a little faster. Some higher end boats are very hard to get rid of. Island Packet was cited as being almost impossible to resell, but it was commented that IP owners seem unwilling to compromise on price. Commodity boats seem to be selling but there are a lot on the market so it's the "clean examples" which sell and the beat up boats which languish. As one broker put it, you can't give them away if they have any issues and people seem more willing to go to survey but then reject the boat rather than negotiate a lower price to compensate for discovered issues.

There is no doubt that it has gotten much harder to sell older boats from the 1960's and 1970's. They have seemed to have dropped around 50% or more in price. There are a lot more of them sitting unsold on the market. In the past, These were the boats that new sailors and budget constrained sailors would have bought . These days There seems to be a broader understanding that unless someone has restored one and done a first class job, these boats are projects to own. The problem is that a restoration cost or even keeping current on long term maintenance costs so much that even at fraction of the outlayed cost, the asking price for a restored version will seem too high for the relative value of the boat. 

On the other hand, buyers also seem to understand that buying a project boat can mean huge expenditures over time, and that for the price of the boat, combined with the cost of the fix up, they can buy newer and much nicer boats, and these newer boats will offer better accommodations, construction, and sailing abilities than these older boats. 

There was a time when folks did all thier own maintenance and upgrades. While boats were way simpler back then, my generation of sailors pretty much did everything on thier boats. It was the norm and not the exception up to pretty large boats. 

When I talk to younger people, or people who are new to sailing, increasingly they know nothing about basic engine mechanics, splicing, painting, electrical troubleshooting, simple winch maintenance, or any of the dozens of basic skills that I have always taken for granted. And they don't seem to want to learn either. So the option of buying a cheap older boat that is down on its luck becomes daunting to bring back with their own hands and prohibitive to write checks. 

Adding to the problem with older boats is that the 60's and 70's were the period of largest annual production numbers but people from that era typically expected less amenities and smaller boats than their 2015 era replacements. 

At least that is my take,
Jeff


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

As Bubs said, the market is really that bad - no doubt about it! One of the reasons is most younger people want things that require little or no work to operate and that go very fast - just the opposite of a sailboat. The older folks, a category of which I'm a card carrying member, tend to enjoy sailboats a lot more, but most are unwilling to take the time to learn to sail. 

My first sailboat was a Catalina 27, 1983 vintage, that had sat as a derelict in an eastern shore, Maryland marina for 5 years before it was donated to the Chesapeake Bay Foundation's Living Classrooms Division. I picked it up for $2,000, it had five sails, four of which were nearly new, an A4 engine that just needed a new carb, points and plugs in order to get it running, and lots of cleaning of the interior and exterior from 5 years of neglect. I sailed it for 5 years before upgrading to my Morgan 33 OI. The only upgrades I did, other than cleaning and polishing, was to add roller furling and a new Lowrance GPS plotter/fish finder, which went with the boat. I sold it for $4,000 to a couple in Baltimore and they were absolutely delighted with the boat and still sail it our of Canton.

All the best,

Gary


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Although I spelled out my beliefs of why wage stagnation and concentration of wealth may be killing the market for boats, Jeff_H's explanation underscores one fact that is totally unrelated to the health of the market: Perhaps those '60s and '70s vintage boats whose prices are plummeting are actually reaching end-of-life. It happens. Nothing lasts forever. I'd be careful to use data from end-of-life boats as an indication of the overall marketplace.

There does come a time when the smart money goes for newer boats. Spending more up front for a serviceable boat that will retain its value with moderate maintenance may well be a wiser way to spend your money than to get a nearly-free boat that will suck you dry and end up being worth what you paid for it (which means nearly nothing).


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I get the feeling that a lot of the commentary here is based on an underlying attitude that boats are similar to cars in terms of ownership - "end of life" and so forth.

The fact is that boats are much more like houses in that context - they require maintenance and repair in an entirely different manner than cars. You don't get rust rotted quarter panels and rocker sills in a boat. :grin (and yes...I know all about wet core).

I have found the boat market to be firming up around here but prices are way down from several years ago. It appears to me that the pricing structure of old boats has simply become a lot more realistic that it used to be. As I recall, older boats used to retain way too much value instead of depreciating appropriately. People got used to the prices of new stuff inflating and expected their old boats to do the same instead of decreasing in value.

You still see some of it on CL and other sites - 40+ year old C&C 27's asking nearly $30 grand and so forth but the bulk of the market seems to simply have become restructured to a more realistic scale of pricing.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

SloopJonB said:


> ...The fact is that boats are much more like houses in that context - they require maintenance and repair in an entirely different manner than cars. You don't get rust rotted quarter panels and rocker sills in a boat. :grin (and yes...I know all about wet core)...


The ravages of water, salt, and UV exposure don't stop at the shoreline. Indeed, they can be just as bad - or worse - on a boat. And the cost and time to do repairs can far exceed the value of the boat. In that respect, boats are far more like cars than they are like houses.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey.

All I can say is that last year I was trying to sell my 1986 Oday 35. I thought my boat was in good condition It had a 2012 main sail, new standng rigging, good headsail, 2012 furler, decent electronics, looked nice, etc. It took some time, but I think I sold it for a fair price and te new owner got a god deal.

Boats that are priced right sell, boats that are priced too high don't. It's as simple s that.

My o'day wasnt perfect. The engine had over 4000 hours, there were some dings in the hull and some gel coat cracks. But it was a solid boat in good condition that could be used right away.

Barry


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

I have been buying and selling boats for 35 years, for personal use. So over that time period I have bought and sold 7 sailboats. If you buy a commodity boat (entry level production boat) it had better to be clean and well cared for because commodity boats are pretty much about price because there are so many built. If the market is tough price is the only thing going for a commodity boat and only those that are in excellent condition sell. The other commodity boats will sit for months until the price has been set at the giveaway level and then they sell. If you can find a nice boat that has a following and is considered by most to be a better built boat and it has been maintained and is in real nice shape this boat will always sell in pretty much any market.
OK now the challenge..it is damn hard to find a older better built boat that is in excellent condition as there just not that many around. These boats get snaped up by savy buyers in fairly short order. There are tons of used sailboats out there but there are very few that are in excellent condition.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

travlineasy said:


> As Bubs said, the market is really that bad - no doubt about it! One of the reasons is most younger people want things that require little or no work to operate and that go very fast - just the opposite of a sailboat. The older folks, a category of which I'm a card carrying member, tend to enjoy sailboats a lot more, but most are unwilling to take the time to learn to sail.


Beware of generalisations. I have spent most of my 20's and now 30's 'messing around in boats'.

Nike is another example that youngsters are not afraid of a bit of hard work.

Alas I think in general, you might be right.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I think a lot of the reason that people, young or old, do not work on boats anymore is that there are fewer marinas where you can do that. It used to be that all marinas were places where boat owners came to work on their boats, tell tall tales, have a beer, and enjoy hanging out at the boatyard. Most of those places have been converted to condos or high-priced marinas that don't allow people to get their hands dirty. That's probably a reason many young folks don't get involved. Our culture has turned into a world of NO--no this, no that, everything controlled, packaged, and sterile. Sad.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Some great additions to update this old thread! I agree with a lot of the things that have been said. With the strengthenng of the economy in the last couple of years, the boat market has stabilized. However the number of people looking for sailboats today is nothing like it was in the heyday of the 60s and 70s. Project boats from those years are basically worthless. The sweet spot today is boats from the 80s and 90s as they have taken the depreciation hit but are better built than many of the older boats, have nicer interiors, and are more likely to require only minimal updating. 

I agree with the observations that younger people today have fewer hands-on skills. Prior to retiring, I spent almost 30 years teaching engineering at the US Merchant Marine Academy. Over that period I saw a steady decline in the percentage of new students that knew how to use tools or understood how engines and other machinery worked. They were great at using computers however. Not their fault, just a change in how things are today. Dads don't work on the their own cars much anymore and most things get discarded and replaced with new when they stop working.


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## kellyculbert (Jul 5, 2015)

Can I ask, with regards to the market, I'm looking for a first sailboat for my family and I (there's 7 of us). I'm looking very affordable, nothing fancy at all! Could you recommend one and weigh in on what I should expect to pay given the market?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

kellyculbert said:


> Can I ask, with regards to the market, I'm looking for a first sailboat for my family and I (there's 7 of us). I'm looking very affordable, nothing fancy at all! Could you recommend one and weigh in on what I should expect to pay given the market?


A lot depends on how much work you want to do yourself. If cruising is a goal, seven people will need a fairly large boat to be "comfortable." I decided to buy an older boat in order to be able to do the work as much as to sail. My older, narrow,35' 60s vintage boat would not accommodate seven imo. It all depends on your goals. In looking around, the first mission would be to look at all the different boats that you can afford. Then narrow down the choices by comparing relative safety (do you want to go offshore?), costs to get into seaworthy condition, and costs of upkeep/storage. Read all you can about the weak points of any particular boat. Knowledge is everything in figuring costs. The clearer you can make the picture, the better. Many underestimate costs which ruins it for them. There have been many threads like this. If you do some searching on the Sailnet forums, there is a wealth of good information.


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## zzrider (Jun 23, 2011)

I'm always encouraged when I come to this forum and still see people new to sailing expressing interest in learning & getting a boat. It's nice to see the (hobby? pastime? sport? lifestyle?) still attracting new people. 

Overall though, I think the scant interest in sailing over the last couple of decades has to do with changing societal norms. 

First, more and more people appear to be wanting instant gratification and easy thrills with minimal effort - write a check, turn a key, go fast. PWCs and powerboats are well-suited for this; sailboats not so much.

Second, even as the middle-class is being slowly destroyed by our oligarchical government, what's left of that middle class has different priorities for their dwindling discretionary income. And again, these other priorities revolve largely around high-priced instant gratification: big fancy houses in fancy neighborhoods, and expensive luxury cars. The streets are simply awash with BMWs, Audis, Mercedes, Lexuses, Cadillacs, etc. 

I'm not being judgmental here, just making an observation and possible explanation for what's going on with the sailboat market. If that's what people want to do with their extra time and money, that's their prerogative. Personally, I'm happy with my Subaru and my modest house in my modest little city with an address no one would envy, if it means I can sail. Priorities.


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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

smurphny said:


> ...costs to get into seaworthy condition, and costs of upkeep/storage.


These costs can (most likely will) be extensive, and _will_ be on-going.

Buying a sailboat is one thing; affording it is a whole 'nuther thing.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

The short answer is YES, the market is that bad. Here is an example:
Nor'Sea 27 Aft Cockpit Diesel 870 hours

A beautiful Nor'sea, ready to go, nicely equipped for only 38. When I was in the 
market, about 4 years ago, she would have been listed closer to 60.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Captainmeme said:


> The short answer is YES, the market is that bad. Here is an example:
> Nor'Sea 27 Aft Cockpit Diesel 870 hours
> 
> A beautiful Nor'sea, ready to go, nicely equipped for only 38. When I was in the
> market, about 4 years ago, she would have been listed closer to 60.


I think part of the answer is in your post but not how you thought.

$190 grand for a nice new 28 footer? Who would be crazy enough to do that? That's 3 or 4 years gross income for a family - more for an individual.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Captainmeme said:


> The short answer is YES, the market is that bad. Here is an example:
> Nor'Sea 27 Aft Cockpit Diesel 870 hours
> 
> A beautiful Nor'sea, ready to go, nicely equipped for only 38. When I was in the
> market, about 4 years ago, she would have been listed closer to 60.


How many of them actually sold at $60,000 four years ago? Asking seems to mean not much. I used to see lots of boats like that with high asking prices but never actually sold. Could be the spouse said get rid of it, or some such thing. "sorry can't find a buyer, very tough market honey" Seems to me it is more a case of reality settling in, and lots of the boats that seemed to get premium are coming down. I have seen lots of Nonsuch and Island Packet boats at much lower prices as well.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

My point concerns the housing market. Prices have increased considerably over the last couple of decades, (apart from a dip in 2008, from which the market has now partly recovered). The natural result is that the middle class is spending an ever-increasing percentage of income on housing costs. This of course means an ever-decreasing remaining income left over for major purposes like a boat.

This particularly applies here in the SF Bay Area where purchase prices and rents are getting just insane. Even middle class 2-income professional households, are living hand-to-mouth, with $800,000 mortgages.

The government's response is to try to make borrowing cheaper, which is tantamount to pouring gasoline on a fire to put it out.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Much of the reason boats are off the table for the sector that bought boats back in the 60s and 70s is that REAL income has been flat whereas boat prices (and everything else) have gone up. Here's an informative graph:Household Income Analysis

There are simply fewer people who can afford a boat.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

At which point we loop back to......

*Second, even as the middle-class is being slowly destroyed by our oligarchical government, what's left of that middle class has different priorities for their dwindling discretionary income.*


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

MarkSF said:


> My point concerns the housing market. Prices have increased considerably over the last couple of decades, (apart from a dip in 2008, from which the market has now partly recovered). The natural result is that the middle class is spending an ever-increasing percentage of income on housing costs. This of course means an ever-decreasing remaining income left over for major purposes like a boat.
> 
> This particularly applies here in the SF Bay Area where purchase prices and rents are getting just insane. Even middle class 2-income professional households, are living hand-to-mouth, with $800,000 mortgages.
> 
> The government's response is to try to make borrowing cheaper, which is tantamount to pouring gasoline on a fire to put it out.


Actually, as an architect in one of those higher end marketplaces, I think its an oversimplification to blame the government or the loss of the middle class or even the bid up price of land. I think there is a certain amount of consumer expectations at play here as well.

When I started designing homes in the 1970's a middle class family of four would have been happy with three bedroom, 1,700 s.f. home with two bathrooms. It would have had an 8 x 12 foot kitchen with Formica counter tops. There might be a single TV which cost two days labor. There would have been an AM-FM receiver and a record player costing another couple days labor. There would have been a single telephone, and the utilities would have been gas-electric, water, and phone bill. Wall to wall carpet was an upcharge, with some rooms getting vinyl as the norm.

These days, the expectations for a family of four (at least around here) have changed. The expectations are 3200 to 3600 s.f., with three bedrooms plus a guest bedroom and often plus an office with three or four and a half bathrooms often with stone countertops. The master baths and closets occupy more space than the master bedrooms of old and often have both a tub and a shower. The kitchens are minimally around 12 x 14 feet, and granite is the norm. The houses are wired for all kinds of low voltage equipment and all kinds of equipment dwell there generally supported by TV, data and phone services. These new homes offer much better insulation, much better windows, and much more efficient heating and cooling systems, but they are also kept at warmer in winter and cooler in summer temperatures. But all that size and complexity comes at a price.

I don't mean any of this in a judgmental way, but the volumes of these homes are often three and four times the volume of and amount of materials going into an acceptable 70's era home for a family of four, and is many times what it was.

And the same is true of expectations for boats. My family (four including two teen aged boys) started sailing in the early 1960's with a 25 foot used boat. The electronics consisted of a handheld transistor radio direction finer, and a depth sounder. There was a single battery and a single cylinder Palmer PW-27 8 hp gas engine. We cruised that boat for weeks at time and covered perhaps a hundred mile or so cruising range.

I now see couples (without kids) getting started who feel that they need 40 footers to be comfortable. The complexity of these boats is staggering. These boats offer probably 6-8 times the interior volume of our little 25 footer. The expected amenities read like war and pieces and none of this comes free.

And one reason older boats are as inexpensive as they are, is that there are fewer and fewer people willing to cruise on boats as smal and simple as our first little 25 footer.

Jeff


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

FWIW, I love my 25 footer. It's easy to take out for a few hours, and capable of taking us out for a week (in protected waters) if we plan some shore stops to re-provision.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Lately, I have been meeting a lot of youth here, especially young ladies, who have realized that the only way they will ever be able to afford their own home , is if that home is a boat. once they move aboard, they are loving it. Great to have someone to pass on to, what I have learned in over 40 years of living aboard , especially that which I wish I had known back then.
When I was in my early 20s , my boat was worth as much as a house. Young ladies wanted nothing to do with boats. A Haida 26 was around $9,000, while wages were around $4 an hour. Now the same boats are under $3K while wages are $30 an hour.
Great to see youth finally taking advantage of that. 
When an economic crunch comes, does it make sense getting rid of that which enables you to live cheaply, (a boat) , in order to try to hold onto that which constantly demands income ( a house)?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Brent Swain said:


> Lately, I have been meeting a lot of youth here, especially young ladies, who have realized that the only way they will ever be able to afford their own home , is if that home is a boat. once they move aboard, they are loving it. Great to have someone to pass on to, what I have learned in over 40 years of living aboard , especially that which I wish I had known back then.
> When I was in my early 20s , my boat was worth as much as a house. Young ladies wanted nothing to do with boats. A Haida 26 was around $9,000, while wages were around $4 an hour. Now the same boats are under $3K while wages are $30 an hour.
> Great to see youth finally taking advantage of that.
> When an economic crunch comes, does it make sense getting rid of that which enables you to live cheaply, (a boat) , in order to try to hold onto that which constantly demands income ( a house)?


I think you are comparing apples (boats) and oranges (houses). The key issue here is footprint and square footage. If a person were to rent an efficiency apartment with square footage comparable to a boat, the apartment would certainly be less costly when you count all the costs of keeping a boat seaworthy.

The "savings" that you refer to comes from the reduced footprint. Reduce that footprint without the boat and you save even more money. And you won't risk losing your home if a through-hull or packing gland leaks.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> I think you are comparing apples (boats) and oranges (houses).


Not to mention, he's comparing a depreciating asset with one that typically gains value, and can often prove to be an excellent investment...


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

"that typically gains value"

I would take exception with the word "typically". Prices have periods of over-exuberance, and then corrections. Most bubbles are typified by an unreasonable belief, an orthodoxy, that prices can only continue to rise. This situation of rising prices only began in 1998, and for the 108 years prior to that, no-one would have expected a house to be an investment. A home, yes. A bank, no.

Here is the Case Shiller index for the last 125 years :

Case Shiller Home Price Index

My interpretation is that sooner or later we can expect a reversion to the mean, of 100. This could be expected to begin as interest rates begin to rise. Past bubbles have only truly ended as interest rates went back to normal. Right now we are in a period where credit is as cheap as can be, in an attempt to prop up the market. This won't work, it only kicks the can down the road.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

MarkSF said:


> "that typically gains value"
> 
> I would take exception with the word "typically". Prices have periods of over-exuberance, and then corrections. Most bubbles are typified by an unreasonable belief, an orthodoxy, that prices can only continue to rise. This situation of rising prices only began in 1998, and for the 108 years prior to that, no-one would have expected a house to be an investment...


No, "typically" is the right word. You are misinterpreting the data. You failed to point out that the Case Shiller Home Price Index uses inflation adjusted dollars. So staying flat means that house prices were rising to match inflation. For those of us who lived through the inflation of the '70s, we realize that a house was a great investment simply because its appreciation kept up with the rampant inflation of the time. During that period, house prices may have beaten the stock market (you can go verify that if you want).

Back to my original point, I dare you to find data that shows that prices of used boats outperformed the house price data that you quoted.

There is simply no argument that a boat is a good investment, or that it is more economical than a comparably sized land dwelling.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

The only even remote way you could compare houses to boats, is if you lifted them off their foundations and put them on an asphalt parking lot, and sold them - "to be located elsewhere". 

It's the location of realestate that makes it valuable - or not, and why it will or will no depreciate. It's not the boards. 

I think the boat market isn't all that bad these days. Used boats have taken a deep correction but are pretty stable in our area. Neglected boats are the most undervalued. The older smaller boats are the most unappreciated as they have oversupplied the market. I think many will be scrapped. 

Older-larger medium+ quality production and reasonably maintained boats are finding buyers in my area. 

New boats are off the charts in relation to used boats. No surprise, the cost of labor and materials today is astronomical compared to 20-30 years ago. And they are systems heavy, complex machines similar to todays new homes.


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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

TakeFive said:


> ack to my original point, I dare you to find data that shows that prices of used boats outperformed the house price data that you quoted.
> 
> There is simply no argument that a boat is a good investment, or that it is more economical than a comparably sized land dwelling.


Concur.

At best, like a car, a boat is a depreciating asset...unless you have a loan on it, then the bank shows it as an asset - for them; and it's a liability for you.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

So, yes, the market has corrected to something closer to sanity, and a large percentage of this is that a number of Boomers are selling off their boats because they have lost interest, are physically no longer able (or feel that way) or have just decided that a nice round of golf is easier. Demographically, Gen X is significantly smaller and Millenials are barely old enough to get into this kind of ownership. And economically, Gen X and the Millenials are some of the least secure generations in modern history with little expectation for steady employment. Couple that with business offloading their historically recent responsibilities for benefits like retirement and healthcare and you have a perfect storm to drive down luxury markets for big ticket ownership.

I do see some of Jeff H's issues playing in here as well, but I think some of that comes from the fact that homes do generally appreciate in value, and so they are considered an investment by most. Somewhat debatable if that's a good call, but that's a different ball of wax. 

And as a representative of the younger set on here (the 40 and under minority) I think there are plenty of people in my generation and the one behind that are happy to put the time and effort in. It's the disposable income that's harder to come by.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Well having been in the housing and land business for most of my life I can certainly concur with Jeff's comments about a new level of expectations when it comes to home sizes. Actually I think his numbers in the early 1970's are on the high side as most people were more than happy with 1200 sq. ft. and 1-1/2 baths in Canada. Coming from Vancouver (some of NA most expensive real estate) I can certainly vouch for an over heated real estate market. Today there are a few things driving the local market, low interest rates,low savings rates and appreciating real estate prices. Many people these days look upon their home as a forced savings plan for their future retirement.

I concur with Tom Maine that older higher quality boats from 40 feet up that have been well looked after are still very much in demand and don't take that long to sell.

As to boat ownership and investment, well the 2 words do not belong in the same sentence. We own boats because we derive a great deal of enjoyment out of the experience which is somewhat of a sport with a very heavy social side, pretty hard to beat. For guys that love to constantly have little projects on the go (me included) there is nothing more fun than a boat to fool around on.
I have spent tons of money on a variety of things in my life and nothing has given me back more enjoyment that sailing, that's all the reason I need to justify the costs.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

"* I have spent tons of money on a variety of things in my life and nothing has given me back more enjoyment that sailing, that's all the reason I need to justify the costs. *"

Bravo Robert! Some things you can't put a price on.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

TakeFive said:


> No, "typically" is the right word. You are misinterpreting the data. You failed to point out that the Case Shiller Home Price Index uses inflation adjusted dollars. So staying flat means that house prices were rising to match inflation. For those of us who lived through the inflation of the '70s, we realize that a house was a great investment simply because its appreciation kept up with the rampant inflation of the time. During that period, house prices may have beaten the stock market (you can go verify that if you want).
> 
> Back to my original point, I dare you to find data that shows that prices of used boats outperformed the house price data that you quoted.
> 
> There is simply no argument that a boat is a good investment, or that it is more economical than a comparably sized land dwelling.


Well I didn't point out that the index is corrected for inflation, as I thought it was so obvious. You originally stated that house values typically increase. Value would normally be defined as the price corrected for inflation.

The only meaningful way to plot the value of something over 125 years is if you correct for inflation.

Also I never said that boats are a better investment than a house. I merely take exception with the statement that house values generally increase. There is no evidence for this at all.

I challenge anyone to provide evidence that house values show a long term trend of increase in values in real terms.

"the fact that homes do generally appreciate in value, and so they are considered an investment by most." Again, this is a myth.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

Very interesting discussion - over the past 30 years probably bought and sold over 50 sailboats - from Sunfish to a nolder Cal 36 - at best broke even , but never lost a lot - always bought low and sold low.

Fiancially buying an older smaller sailboat ( 30 feet and under) and keeping it in a slip - just does not make much financial sense - Slip rental along the coast in Florida - from $9ft to $15ft per month.

For example - you can pick up an older Hunter 30 for $8000 - your slip rental with taxes and electric will easily run $300/month. You are now paying $3600/year to keep an $8,000 boat. the numbers seem to make more sense if you own a bigger, newer boat and use it more like a second home/condo.

I keep a small sailboat now on a lake in Central Florida - slip rental is $60/month - includes water and electric, would like a bigger boat - but further to go to it, 4-5 times the costs to keep it in a slip on the coast at an average marina. Even if someone gave me a boat for free I would have to really consider if it is worth it.

I think the older , not up to date boats from the 60's and 70's are all most giveaways - lots of up keep and expenses, most sailors who have the money don't want to spend their time fixing something up - that leaves the ones who want a boat but have no money - these boats seem to switch hands between them as they find they can't affford a slip - many then end up anchored out and left. 

The younger generation likes adventure - they may buy a sailboat to explore the Bahamas or Baja for 6 months but they then come back and sell it and move on to the next adventure - I don't see them as long term boat owners.

The economics have changed for sailboats - the top 1% can afford the new ones , the rest will struggle with all the related costs to boating - it certainly still can be done but it has to be a very high priority in your budget - which it just isn't for 99.5% of the population. The days of a young family buying a Catalina 25 and enjoying daysailing - are gone, there are still some out there but compared to 20 years ago - alot less.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

MarkSF said:


> I challenge anyone to provide evidence that house values show a long term trend of increase in values in real terms.
> 
> "the fact that homes do generally appreciate in value, and so they are considered an investment by most." Again, this is a myth.


You also said that meaningful appreciation didn't occur until 1998. That certainly was not true in the Boston market.

I purchased a home for 39K in 1976 and sold it for 124k in 1984. I then purchased a house for 199k in 1984 and could have sold it for 450k in 1988. My wife kept it after our divorce and sold it in a corrected 1991 market for 300k.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

sailpower said:


> You also said that meaningful appreciation didn't occur until 1998. That certainly was not true in the Boston market.
> 
> I purchased a home for 39K in 1976 and sold it for 124k in 1984. I then purchased a house for 199k in 1984 and could have sold it for 450k in 1988. My wife kept it after our divorce and sold it in a corrected 1991 market for 300k.


One thing to keep in mind is that the housing market is cyclical. You will find times that for short periods of time the market will indeed rise much more than inflation. If you happen to buy and sell during this time you can indeed do quite well. Being cyclical you are also exposed to buying high and selling low (think 2008)


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Here is how I would put it : "There may be periods where house prices rise, but over the long term, their value, in real terms, remains steady".


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

robert sailor said:


> sailpower said:
> 
> 
> > You also said that meaningful appreciation didn't occur until 1998. That certainly was not true in the Boston market.
> ...


True, but a boat is a depreciating asset. What you put in is largely not coming back. So I second the view that you have to look at it for the joy it brings. It's also why I would never buy a new, expensive boat when I can equally enjoy and old pretty boat that cost me a fraction (that has a denominator larger than 10). But I am also one of those people that enjoys old houses, and find the new starter castles Jeff H is being asked to build abhorrent. I know a finish carpenter who is working on a 36M single family vacation home right now on MDI. And that is not a typo. I dislike paying taxes as much as the next guy, but a 36M vacation home?


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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

cdy said:


> Very interesting discussion - over the past 30 years probably bought and sold over 50 sailboats - from Sunfish to a nolder Cal 36 - at best broke even , but never lost a lot - always bought low and sold low.
> 
> Fiancially buying an older smaller sailboat ( 30 feet and under) and keeping it in a slip - just does not make much financial sense - Slip rental along the coast in Florida - from $9ft to $15ft per month.
> 
> ...


I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head here. When I started looking at the fixed costs of slip and insurance, then the regular maintenance from engine stuff, rigging, bottom jobs, waxing the darn thing, etc., then pile on unscheduled/unexpected maintenance and repairs (look at SmackDaddy's engine ordeal for example; I'm just not rich enough to absorb an unexpected hit like that)...wow, talk about a dead short in the hip pocket!!! Took the fun away big-time for me.

Went back to renting. Sure, I gave up the convenience of having a boat to use when and for as long as I please, and I do miss that. Having to be back in by a certain time gets limiting. But I balance that with knowing that if anything is in need of repair, or if the gel coat is getting chalky, it's not my worry or expense or time-sucking black hole.

Hated to sell the boat, but financially for me it was the thing to do. Maybe I'll buy a sailboat once I retire and can use it more; and have the time to fix things rather than "call a guy."


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Good points, I think the key to really enjoying older boat ownership is to enjoy the maintenance - which I do, mostly. I wasn't enjoying working on the engine for two weekends from the lazarette, hence the mostly!


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I think the biggest determining factor is where the money comes from for purchasing a sailboat, or any boat - it's leisure money, funds that are over and above those used for the normal, every day expenses of living. Well, there isn't a whole lot of that money available these days, at least not for Joe Sixpack, the person that at one time could easily afford to purchase a boat and go sailing, fishing, cruising, etc... 

I just talked with a friend that works for Maryland DNR Park Service. He said where he works, boating activity is at the lowest point it has been in years, on week days the launch ramp is pretty much not used at all, and now the park he works at is only open weekends at the park store, which until recently was open 7 days a week during the summer months. This has a tremendous trickle-down effect, and I see it on the upper reaches of Chesapeake Bay all the time. There have been lots of weekdays where when I go on a day-sail, I have the entire bay to myself. No crabbers, no recreational anglers, no sailors, only a few tugs towing or pushing barges down the bay. A decade ago, every summer day produced lots of boating activity in this area of the Chesapeake. And, there are only a handful of fishing tackle stores still in business, and the same is true for boat dealers. 

All the best,

Gary


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

robert sailor said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that the housing market is cyclical. You will find times that for short periods of time the market will indeed rise much more than inflation. If you happen to buy and sell during this time you can indeed do quite well. Being cyclical you are also exposed to buying high and selling low (think 2008)


I understand very well that the market is cyclical. I sold my last home, a townhouse in MD that I paid 162k for in 1994 for 410k in 2007 after putting 50k into it.

I have been renting in FL ever since which has worked out very well.

So, I have been fortunate not to have ever lost money on a home and have actually done very well since buying my first home in 1972 (only made 8k on that one). Lucky timing.

I am considering buying again as the downward market adjusts up but am going to wait until after the next election to see which path the country chooses.


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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

MarkSF said:


> , I think the key to really enjoying older boat ownership is to enjoy the maintenance - which I do, mostly. I wasn't enjoying working on the engine for two weekends from the lazarette, hence the mostly!


That is exactly it. A buddy of mine loves maintaining his boat, calls it his "happy Place." As it should be.

If I was retired (or independently wealthy, or a guy who can make 'tens of thousands of dollars' a day on a cell phone and iPad) I'd still have a sailboat. Wish I was, but I'm not that guy. My job takes me out of town 3 or 4 days a week, every week. So, when I do have free time to sail, I'd rather sail than do (and pay for) maintenance.


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