# Lots of General Questions



## jcook5003 (Sep 28, 2007)

Hey guys I have been lurking here forever but just registered this morning and have a few questions, I am in the research phase of cruising and have lots of questions to get me headed in the right direction......

I am going freelance with my web design which should allow to work from anywhere with internet access which should be fairly easy with marinas/satellite internet, and my wife makes jewelry which we hope to have up and running in an online store soon, so I think we should be able to sustian the cash flow required for cruising.

But I still need some general poking to get myself headed in the right direction, I know you guys here are obviously biased towards sailboats but whats your opinion on displacement fuel efficient motorboats for long term cruising, I would think the overall operation costs and maintence would come out to about the same......

Also I am still undecided on a cruising destination, I would either like to do the great loop cruise or head to the bahamas and carribean, any opinions?

Also I have always read you should buy the boat which will take you cruising now.....anyone have suggestion on makes/models to keep an eye open for that I can buy and "fix up" for an initial investment of $50K.....

Here again I feel like I must remind folks I am not trying to make any firm decisions here just get myself headed in the right direction for more specific questions.....

Thanks in advance for the input and advice
Josh


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

The first thing I would determine, in your position, is your cruising grounds, how you'll cruise, and what you expect from cruising. Also, what level of ammenities will be necessary. That will go a long way towards determining the type of vessel, and the necessary budget.

For instance, should you decide to do the Great Loop, a power boat makes more sense, as you'd be primarily motoring anyway. Going offshore, I think a sailboat would be a better choice.

Obviously, there's much more to consider, but, in my opinion, that should be your starting point. Good luck in your efforts.


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## jcook5003 (Sep 28, 2007)

Thanks and I know I had a lot of open ended questions here but I am just trying to get myself going in the right direction.....towards a decision

I am heavily leaning towards a 2-4 year cruise through the bahamas....then reverteing to part-time cruising after that, my wife and I are still young 22 and 23.....so we have lots of time to make up our minds.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

> I know you guys here are obviously biased towards sailboats but whats your opinion on displacement fuel efficient motorboats for long term cruising, I would think the overall operation costs and maintence would come out to about the same......


I suspect that since you're posting these questions on a sailing forum, that you and your wife may still be at a decision crossroads as regards to s/v or m/v.

However, if you have decided to go power - why ask sailors who will surely only provide biased recommendations?

On the other hand, I selected a well designed motorsailer that provides more variations, enabling us to sail at near-hull speed, motorsail when going to weather, or motor only at 8-9 knots. Your budget is somewhat low for that option however.


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## jcook5003 (Sep 28, 2007)

I am extremely biased towards sailing vessels, I was only seeking objective advice from you alls point of view, obviously I will ask the same questions on a motor vessel board also.....sorry if I caused any confusion.

Although I am intersted in the motorsailing option I think it would take us to long to save enough funds to buy a boat like that......


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Getting a *sailboat* that is capable of long-term cruising with two people aboard for $50,000 is doable. There are a lot of older good boats out there that would do the job.

Just be aware that cruising and reliable internet access aren't really achievable without a big capital investment and having fairly large battery banks to support the hardware required IMHO. That generally isn't doable on a small cruising boat, with a limited budget.

I don't know how reasonable it would be for you to expect to be able to run both an on-line store for your wife's jewelry business or your web design business from the boat. This is especially the case if she is the designer and maker of the jewelry, which would require her to have access to supplies as well as the ability to ship her product-neither of with is feasible on a cruising boat.

IMHO, it might make more sense to build up both businesses, and spend some years chartering, and then sell both and buy a boat and move aboard...rather than trying to run two businesses which aren't really appropriate to a cruising lifestyle.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

He obviously has not done much research on pricing displacement diesel-engine powerboats, suitable for offshore and liveaboard use. 50k is nowhere near enough. It is doable with sailboats however.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

If you want to run an internet ecommerce solution, you'll need to host it at a Data Provider and then just maintain it from your boat. The issue is going to be that the site will go down when you're out of contact, not while you're cozy in some marina with broadband access. That's just the way it is.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Well, if he wants a trawler, then he's gonna have to pony up more money, probably closer to 200K, and then there's all the lovely fuel he has to buy to feed it.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Charlie-

I don't think he's thinking of hosting any site or e-commerce solutions from the boat. Just that he wants to be able to run a web-design business fromt the boat-which generally requires reliable and fairly high-speed internet access. He also wants to be able to run his wife's jewelry e-commerce site from the boat... and if she is the designer/maker of the jewelry, then she needs to have access to both reliable internet and reliable shipping-neither of which is normally the case on a cruising boat.



CharlieCobra said:


> If you want to run an internet ecommerce solution, you'll need to host it at a Data Provider and then just maintain it from your boat. The issue is going to be that the site will go down when you're out of contact, not while you're cozy in some marina with broadband access. That's just the way it is.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Deja vu.
This whole scenario sounds very familiar to me for some reason. Wasn't there a poster many months ago with similar dreams - Jewelry designer wife/webdesigner husband?


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## jldooley (Aug 1, 2007)

I can offer no advise on buy boat 'X' as its 'best'

However, I would buy a book describing How you made a decision, and exactly how much it cost for you to do it.

The only site (1) I have found describing cruising and explaing cost in detail was written by trust fund babies. 

I don't have a multi million dollar trust fund so its practically useless to me. 
Write a book describing how you Did It for 50k and you'll never work again. 
best of luck, j


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> Deja vu.
> This whole scenario sounds very familiar to me for some reason. Wasn't there a poster many months ago with similar dreams - Jewelry designer wife/webdesigner husband?


I think there was... maybe that's just a really common career pairing...  NOT.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Josh,

As one of the few sailors on here that is actually passionate about trawlers (let me rephrase that... SOME trawlers), I can probably answer almost all your questions. I did end up getting abother sailboat (my fourth fixed keel), but not without an effort the other way.

Before I type too much on the whole trawler bit, I will emphasize what has been written earlier. Just one of the engines out of a respectable trawler could exceed your budget. A respectable trawler (displacement) goes in my preferential order of:

1) Nordhavn (I like the old 46... and some aspects of the new 47). You should have no problem picking up a 18 year old 46 for about $400-450,000... but may need some updating. A newish 47 will likely cross 1 million.

2) Kadey-Krogen. They 42's are a good boat and very sea worthy. You can get one in decent shape for in the mid-200's. One of the newer wide bodys will be considerbaly more and approach the cost of a Nord, depending on age.

3) Selene. These are made by Marlow Marine. Good boats. Kinda the best of Nord's and Krogen's, but I am not sure in my opinion that the same level of quality is there. I think they run in the 600,000 range... but I have not priced one lately.

4) Cape Horn. Very, very nice boats. Like the Nord (and debateably the Krogen and Selene), these are go aroung the world boats. Made out of solid steel, submarine-water tight doors and hatches, bulbous bow like freighters. However, the cost typically puts them out of the running for most. You can drop an easy million on one of these.

That is about the end of the list on full disp trawlers that I am aware of or would be intersted in considering. So, before I put much time discussing the virtues of each, if that is out of your price bracket (which I assume it is), better pass on that idea.

In the 50k range, for coastal and bahamas, etc... get an old production boat. You don't need a bullet proof shoe box. Catalina is my strong preference - but I like Jeauneau and Bene also. Those are my personal preferences, in order. There are many other boats that others will suggest on here, but for what you plan on doing, you do not need a "blue-water" tub. You will want as much space as you can get. Liveaboard is totally different than the weekender and your boat just became your home.

If you want to consider semi displacement trawlers, the list is too long for me to mention. Albins have been a preferece of mine, but there are many others. Still, I think a 50k price tag will be nothing but a down payment. If you find a 50k trawler, I would be concerned about it having more problems than another 50k could cover. However, the same may very well be said of a 50k sailboat. Be cautious what you buy and get a good survey. There are some great boats out there... and some real junk that will leave you broke monetarily, mentally and physically. 

Just some initial thoughts. If you have more questions about trawlers or sailboats... ask away. Esp on the sailboats, you will get more "opinions" than you can handle on this site!!!

Good luck in your search.

- CD


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Don't drop your dream, or you'll end up as an old fuddy-duddy still dreaming of it. Read Annie Hill's "Voyaging on a small income" to see what's involved. People do it and young people do it better (or they can put up with less money and more hardship).


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## dpST (Sep 20, 2007)

jcook5003 said:


> Also I have always read you should buy the boat which will take you cruising now.....anyone have suggestion on makes/models to keep an eye open for that I can buy and "fix up" for an initial investment of $50K.....


You can't buy fair motorboat for $50k. Maybe 10+years old sundancer 26-32, but I doubt.

Btw., did you find (sat.) network/broadband connection or you try to find it? Because I also plan to go for long trip (accros Atlantic) and trying to find cheap net connection but without sucess.


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## jcook5003 (Sep 28, 2007)

Wow what a huge response, all very honest and I appreciate that and wont like most whine about it....

I didnt think I could buy a trawler for my 50k budget target but I knew I could buy a sailboat for budget.....but there again I thought I was pretty clear about that but sorry if I wasnt

As far as my business my site wouldnt go down per se if I hosted it from a third party computer and only manged it from my laptop, which could be done everytime I was in port or on the hook with a sat. connection which I know is possible because a good friend of mine sets his sat connection up everywhere he takes his "liveaboard" RV, I will investigate more into it and post my findings here. As I said before I am only in the research phase.....

And as far as my wifes e-site, it shouldnt be hard to keep her in supplies, with local goods etc. and it shouldnt be hard to ship items with a 14 day policy, there again just looking into research options here.....

Well guys sorry I stirred up such a fuss I was hoping to generate some conversation only on the basis that I hadnt done my research and was planning/dreaming I will find out more and come back here to post my findings for some more advice.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

A thought - 

Our latest sailbaot is quite livable, and cost well under 20K with upgrades and parts to get it back in shape. It's quite seaworthy from what we can tell, and we're getting geared up to cruise the gulf of mexico and maybe a great loop. 

My dad's nordhavn cost him over 700K without fees and taxes. I remember when he bought it, and I got to glance at the papers before I almost fell out of the chair. He spends about $7500 annually on fuel to cruise south california , baja mexico and over to hawaii. so far this year, I've spent $184.33 on fuel. I can keep the few receipts in my logbook.

I haven't put thousands of miles on my sailboats yet, but I can guarantee you I can cruise for just as many miles as he can, just slower and nearly for free. 

I have about a 30-40 gallon tank for a 25 horsepower motor and I use it about 10% of my time saiing. He has about 1500 gallons and uses the twin diesels constantly unless in port, then usually a generator is running in absence of shore power leads. 

My wife and I were your age when we started "fun adventures" like what you're planning on doing about 10 years ago. We've searched for our own boat, and lived aboard the Nordhavn too. Now we're on sailboats and are very happy, much more so than a power boat / passagemaker. 
We have a house too, but we could very easily live aboard the 28 footer if we had to and lived in an area that would be proper.

Initially I thought space and comfort would be a premium, so we bought a Beneteau 323 which was like a floating cavern, and it would be big enough for either one of us to single hand. Now that we've been out sailing and learning, we re-addressed what we like in a sailboat and now we have a little lancer 28 which is PERFECT for us. 

I wish I could have seen what I needed beforehand and it would have saved me thousands of dollars on fees, surveys, and a stressful $150,000 loan I wouldn't be able to pay with just my retirement pension if I wanted to cruise too. If we had to manage a business, I'd keep the bene, otherwise we both really enjoy our Lancer 28 (and anyone here can tell you I have an affair with it, Andrea calls it my mistress) and it cost more than a hundred thousand dollars less after a complete restoration adn refit, with all modern electronics rigging, sails and anything else we found needed to be re-done. It's really a new boat with an old hull and mast. 

So, certainly $50K is very do-able for a cruising boat. Heck, 30K would exceed what we've sunk into the Lancer so far and it is perfect for us now, and is heavy/stable enough to take to the sea, and if we crash it, no problem; we didn't loose our shirts too much. insurance is less than $250.00 A YEAR for full replacement cost on everything we've put into it. It was 6 times that on the Bene, and required by the mortgage broker.

A note about our Beneteau - when I used to singlehand it, I used to get flat nervous because there was just so much money at stake each time I cast off. I can relax with the Lancer and learn learn learn, not to mention enjoy sailing without a care in the world and having a f-ing great time. 

Sail to enjoy it, not to show off or worry. Have fun with your best friend as much as you can before kids come and the game changes. Do what makes you happy and you're reap the benefits ten fold.

Read up on "Modern Cruising Under Sail" and "Singlehanded Sailing" as well as "Storm Tactics" the you'll have a great clarity on what you NEED to get your task done, rather than what you'll think you need. Also grab an Annapollis (sp?) Guide to Seamanship manual and a Duttons Navagation book.

Hope that helps you in your search!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A terrestrial satellite connection is far easier to setup and maintain, since the RV once parked, is effectively stationary... a boat is always moving... even when at anchor or tied up to a pier... it will rock, yaw, roll, as the waves and wind move it. A gyro-stabilized satellite dish, which is what you would require, is fairly expensive and the data rates are per megabyte, not a flat fee like the terrestrial satellite providers may have. 

Shipping from foreign locations may very well not be doable within a 14-day policy. Say you find out about an order, but are three-days from a port with international shipping facilities. Shipping it overnight from the port is probably more than most people are going to be willing to pay, but it has to go out via air to the mainland in any case which is still going to be pretty expensive. So, figure that it takes a day to clear customs in the country you're in... that's now four days...plus a day to get it to the United States, which is where the bulk of your customers are probably going to be... Then you have a weekend... that's seven days minimum just to get into the US not barring any complications with customs coming into the country. Clearing US Customs can take a couple of days, and they don't work weekends... so you're up to nine days... ground transport can take 

Also, does she have the experience and knowledge to deal with importing/exporting from the various countries into and out of the USA?? If not, then you might want to re-think this a bit.


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## emagin (Jun 8, 2007)

Check this out, should set you off in the right direction with your research.
I have a ton of cruising links, if any of you are into social bookmarking, maybe we could set up a shared cruising links group on diigo.com


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## emagin (Jun 8, 2007)

geocities dot com/bill_dietrich/Costs.html


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## canadianseamonkey (Sep 4, 2006)

Internet via satellite should be the next big thing for boats once they perfect it. I would say by next year major improvements will have been made. It wasn't that long ago that none of us had WIFI at our marinas or bluetooth. If they can get it to work on multiple satellites like a GPS does it should solve the problem.

I think you have the right idea of running an on-line business, it is a bright future as long as you have the right model. Good luck to you.


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## jcook5003 (Sep 28, 2007)

Thanks seamonkey it's nice to hear one thing I am doing among all the things I am doing wrong or havent considered yet.....thanks for all the advice guys keep it coming.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

You need to give good consideration to how much room your wife needs for the jewelry making. If not much, then a small $50,000 sailboat will do. If you need more room for all the tools & supplies then you might need a bigger boat for more money.

As for selling her stuff, you might need a stateside seller to handle the biz. Make plenty of jewelry during your 6 month stay in the Bahamas, then come back to the US and ship it all to your reseller to sell however that works for you. If you want to ship direct from the boat, you will probably want to stay in the US where UPS will be close at hand. I've noticed that many e-bay sales are make or break based on the shipping cost. Staying coastal US will also give you access to cell phone data plans so you can keep connected 24/7 for about $50/month almost everywhere on the US east coast with decent speeds. 

I don't think there's a huge price/operating cost difference between a 40' sail & a 35' trawler. Trawlers do tend to cost more for most calculations. But that is dependant on where and how much you cruise. As fuel keeps going up that will get worse.


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## dpST (Sep 20, 2007)

What you think about globe wireless (www.seawave.com), does someone use it?

I dont need 100mb/s flat rate connection, just for check mail and bank transactions, pay bills, etc..


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Lancer28-great post. 

jcook-It seems to me that you are asking a very basic question and would like a very basic answer. The answer is: Yes! You can do it, and you can do it on a fairly small boat on a fairly small budget. For example, you can find a very decent boat for 30k, then put 20k into new stuff including electronics. If you've got the dream, the desire, and the skills, you can make it work. The main piece of advice I would give you is to get your business rock solid before you go. You don't want to be out there and find out that there is no demand for your product.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Just to throw some fuel on the fire, Perhaps an older 1960's era (avoid the later 1970's version which neither sailed or motored as well as the earlier design) Chris Craft 35 Motorsailor would be the hot ticket. You could live in the main cabin rather comfortably and convert the aft cabin to a workshop office for your wife and yourself. These were essentially displacement motor yachts that sailed quite well for their day. Of course, if you insist on diesel then the trick will be to find one with a diesel since they originally all had gas engines.

Here is a link to one: http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...=USD&units=Feet&id=1746175&lang=en&slim=quick&

Jeff


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Nice! (I can smell the mildew from here. )


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## micksbuddy (Aug 11, 2006)

Another possibility in the affordable trawler/motorsailor segment is the Schuckers, more than $50k, but less than 100k. Full displacement, lots of fuel, nice layout for a couple. Bruce van Sant used one without the mast as a trawler for years between FL and the Carribean. I was considering one till I decided I wanted to go more on the sail end of the spectrum.


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## FELTON (Dec 24, 2000)

Bahamas got to go to green turtle cay


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## FELTON (Dec 24, 2000)

There are alot of wireless internet access points in the bahamas


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