# Americ's Cup AC75 design 'concepts' revealed



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Enjoy !!!!!!!!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Amazing!!!
Can even see that concept applied to a vendee open or Volvo.


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## mikel1 (Oct 19, 2008)

Wow . . . .got my attention . . . could there be a future super fast monohull pedestrian cruiser version? How cool would that be . . .wish Paulo was still around but looking forward to others reactions . . . my hopes start to fade when I think how light that must be . . .. like no interior at all . . . .


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I really like the idea. To me this should allow racing which is more tactical and strategic than the flying cats. For better or worse, conceptually boats that rely on dynamic forces for a major part of their stability are also more prone to having high drama events like capsizes and major knock downs. 

I don't think that this specific technology will show up in even coastal cruisers since it is so weight sensitive, and the rules for the open classes would need to change to permit this, but I do think that the DSS.(Dynamic Stability Systems) horizontal foils that slide below the cabin sole might have a place on performance cruisers.

Jeff


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

FWIW - many of the prelim concepts of the AC75 were probably discussed/theorized and with a few breadboard experiments reported in the "_*Ancient Interface*_" - a late 1960s NASA sponsored, open source 'compendium' found in many engineering school libraries and contributed to by seriously involved eng. students and professors, etc. ..... and all done with 'slide rules' and hand-drawings. 
Imagine the current state-of-the art if they had 'finite element' digital design capability, etc. etc. at that time.

Its really quite satisfyingly amazing to see such continued pursuit of 'evolution'.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Interesting but the sort of sailboat I can't relate to very well. I find the moving foils weird looking appendages regardless of how effective they may be. A keel, regardless of the form seems more boat-like.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Local scuttlebutt is New England Boatworks, Portsmouth RI is building this one:

Media Alert: NYYC - BOTIN PARTNERS SIGNED AS EXCLUSIVE YACHT DESIGN FIRM FOR NYYC AMERICA'S CUP CHALLENGE - Bella Mente Racing

This is all going to get interesting I think!


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Jeff_H said:


> I really like the idea. To me this should allow racing which is more tactical and strategic than the flying cats.


I'm not sure why you think that. Foiling and speed is the same, with the same results - fall off foil or lose speed in a tack and you are way, way behind. Otherwise, tactics and strategy are the same for both boat types.

Unless this mono will not regularly live up to the hype. Showing it with a large Code 0 must mean that it will spend little time on foil at proposed speeds, or regularly fall off foil and need that sail to get back on. Otherwise, a Code 0 would just slow it down. The tiny jibs on the AC cats were needed for slow maneuvering only (mostly at the start), and were operating in pure drag mode for most of the race - they were luffing half the time when at speed.

In the last AC, there were more tacking duals and more lead changes than in the previous 10 AC campaigns combined. The foiling cats were not without tactics and strategy.

Personally, I don't see any difference between the AC cats and this proposed mono - but am amused at everyone who complained about the cats now jumping in frothing about the great mono.

Mark


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

This seems to have become exercises in engineering.
One requirement is that water is involved.
Really no reason to have humans onboard...just drone it...stop pretending it's sport.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I really like that they push technical boundaries and even design the races to accommodate extreme engineering. Each day is essentially a new prototype that you get to see develop before your eyes. I've learned things, and discovered technologies, I never would have otherwise.

And the humans have developed skills and athleticism to keep pace with the technology. This is a sport - the sailors are the most athletic and skilled in various technologies than ever before in history. It does take the very top of the professionals just to keep these things upright, let alone win races. And they are completely immersed in it for years just to get to the races.

I never want to see it go back to fat people going 6kts in boring boats where the highest technology is the shape of a minor winglet on a keel. I don't even want to see it go the direction of the Volvo and other races with high tech boats. 

I like it just where and how it is.

Mark


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Whats apparently happening is the re-recognition of the (1890s !!!!) observation (in skimming dish - lightweight and super fast Scow classes) that the surface tension of the water is an impediment to forward speed. There already have been some 'super-maxis' such as the 'Infinity 46' (and with minimized keel structure and with 'stub' foils) and the Mono-60 with J foils, that essentially slightly lift the hull and their flat bottomed hull shape traps air under that hull; thus breaking up and vastly reducing the hull drag effects of surface tension. These experimental boats are now as fast as the BIG scows (25+kts) which originally in the late 19th century developed 'sailing on top of' or 'skimming' on water/air emulsions. 
Until the mid 1980s and advent of wind surfers and Ozzie skiffs, these BIG ILYA Scows were absolutely the fastest sailboats. You dont need to have the hull totally out of the water if you have sufficient air/water emulsion under the hull. Do web search for ILYA A-Scow

Here's some 'Youtube' of the Infinity-46 ... using skimming dish (air/water emulsion + stub foils) technology:


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I love it. 

Never had an objection to the cats. I did object to the first 72 foiling cat, as it was simply too dangerous. The teams and competitors eventually agreed.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Minnewaska said:


> I love it.
> 
> Never had an objection to the cats. I did object to the first 72 foiling cat, as it was simply too dangerous. The teams and competitors eventually agreed.


Yup. The higher the boat is out of the water when supported by a foil, the higher the exponential risk of 'tripping' into a 'pitch pole' or even the potential of a complete 'submarining' under the water. The closer the hull to the water, the less potential for such dynamic 'sinkings'.

However, the strategic advantage of those AC Cats is their rigid wing sails that resist undue 'twist', as do fabric, etc. sails; hence, vastly superior aerodynamics.

The evolution continues ... and it all 'good'.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> I love it.
> 
> Never had an objection to the cats. I did object to the first 72 foiling cat, as it was simply too dangerous. The teams and competitors eventually agreed.


Actually, it was the teams and competitors that made it dangerous. The design and design rule was never intended to foil. NZ figured out how to work within the design rule to make it foil, but not fully control the foiling. The design rule didn't allow control of foiling (rudder foils, fully movable foils, specifically designed foils, etc), because it wasn't created for foiling boats. They couldn't change the design rule because at the time not everyone could make the boat foil, and it was too late anyhow.

On the other hand, those barely controlled boats were the most exciting boats I've ever seen, and possibly the most exciting that will ever exist. It reminded me of those old films of early automobiles bounding out of control off-road with parts flying, and passengers in mid-air, etc. Funny how being on the razor's edge of death is exciting...

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

colemj said:


> ......Funny how being on the razor's edge of death is exciting.......


It's true. The primary objection for me was the position the professional athletes were put in. The AC is the pinnacle of their professional sport. Regardless of the safety, they were going to agree to play. They would agree with enthusiasm. To risk their lives. To race a sailboat. Not cool.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Adoration/respect of athleticsim....really?


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

People volunteer to give their lives for far worse "causes" all the time, not just permitted but honored for it.

It's a free world, we all get to choose where we draw the line.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> It's true. The primary objection for me was the position the professional athletes were put in. The AC is the pinnacle of their professional sport. Regardless of the safety, they were going to agree to play. They would agree with enthusiasm. To risk their lives. To race a sailboat. Not cool.


The irony is that the sailors themselves were the ones who discovered and pushed that boat into dangerous territory - they weren't put in that position by the man.

The AC isn't the pinnacle of the sport - it is only one pinnacle of one aspect of the sport. Many other equal, or even arguably higher, pinnacles exist in professional sailing.

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

colemj said:


> The irony is that the sailors themselves were the ones who discovered and pushed that boat into dangerous territory - they weren't put in that position by the man.
> 
> The AC isn't the pinnacle of the sport - it is only one pinnacle of one aspect of the sport. Many other equal, or even arguably higher, pinnacles exist in professional sailing.
> 
> Mark


Which would you consider the overall pinnacle? Non-sailors worldwide know of the America's Cup. I doubt many have ever heard of most of the other formats. Folks don't even follow Olympic sailing, most have never heard of the ocean races. Hard to be a pinnacle in obscurity. 

Interesting point about the professional crew pushing the boundaries, but it's aligned with my point. It should not have been allowed, as their judgement to participate is impeded by their desire to reach that success. I'm willing to bet there were many crew that thought it was going too far, but couldn't/wouldn't bail.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Which would you consider the overall pinnacle?


I don't think there is an overall pinnacle, since there are many aspects and flavors of professional sailing that utilize different expertise and skills. The Volvo pros probably wouldn't qualify, nor want to participate, in the AC. The RTW alone guys too.

The skills difference was readily apparent in the past AC, where the skipper for France was at the top of his game in open ocean multihull racing, but woefully under-skilled in comparison to others in AC match racing.

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I get your point, Mark. 

I've met a few AC crew members over the years. They are generally considered sailing studs in any room. Lay people have heard of it, like they've heard of professional soccer or football, even if they don't watch. Actually, the few AC folks I've met considered themselves studs, but that's a different issue. The Volvo, Vendee and other RTW folks are generally considered nuts, when you describe what they do.  Virtually no one watches, let alone knows who won, Olympic sailing. Not unlike Olympic archery. While grossly undeserved, folks think you were just the best sailor/archer at your summer camp.  I think overall bragging rights go to the AC crews. But I can't prove it.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

I think there are a handful of competitions you could argue are the 'pinnacle' of sailing. In some order 

AC
VOR
Olympic - Medal
Vendee

Olympic competitor (way down somewhere below HOBIE 16 NA champ)

Personally I think the skill positions on the AC boats are the most exclusive, and most impressive. The Vendee are the most insane, and the VOR/Olympics can fight over third and fourth. But there is so much mixing of the top crews I am not sure it really matters much.

Half of the ETNZ races A-Cats, the other half race Moth's, well more than half of the AC crews have an Olympic campaign at least and probably half have a medal. The Vendee is probably the only one without a lot of crossover, and most of that is due to their race schedule and the difficulty in coming up with the sponsorship money to pay for it. 

Just look at the crew list for this years ETNZ.
Glenn Ashby - AC and Olympic medalist
Peter Burling - AC, VOR and Olympic medalist
Ray Davies - AC, Whitbread, VOR
Guy Eden - AC, ?
Blair Tuke - AC, VOR and Olympic medalist


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I can't think of any reason a little bit of danger shouldn't be tolerated in a professional sport like sailing. Lots of professional athletes risk life and limb to be the top name in the game, pro snow boarders, auto racers, skiers, bobsledders...

In fact, I think if sailing doesn't have some edginess t it, it will struggle for recognition.

I had no interest what so ever in the Americas Cup before they started flying catamarans, I would have rather tuned into, bobsledding.

For me, from a sailboat racing perspective, the Vendee has always held the greatest fascination, nothing else has even come close.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

The event is obviously evolving... driven by tech and what a vessel in the water can be/do. In that sense it is interesting to see how a boat can be made to go 3 or 4 times the speeds we are accustomed to as "fast'! Fast sells... people like speed, danger, edginess and so on.... gets their adrenalin flowing and it's a high.

Adrenalin sports have no interest for / to me. And that's probably why I am not much of a spectator. I sail and love to watch great sailors and fabulous boats probably more for the subtlety and skills and amazing teamwork of the crews. The round the world and very long distances "endurance" races are remarkable for the stamina of the sailors... but not something you can watch except for short excerpts and the glorious media friendly starts and finishes.

Finally the huge money involved is a bit of a turn off to me. Sailing is accessible... or can be, but this level of the sport is not. I can't relate to it and have only mild interest in it. The foils are weird looking to me and I don't like the aesthetics of them. 

I will take a pass in the coming AC.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Isn't it a fairly modern effort to make the AC a broad spectator sport. It started as a Yacht Club challenge among the wealthiest of their time. I think it is possible that the sport is being bastardized, merchandised, etc, for the ability to attract more viewers. I think it's working to a point. Although, I'm not sure it's working well enough and still requires massive loss funding.

While I'm pretty sure there have been professional crew, since the beginning (along with amateur), isn't it a very recent concept that the boats are fully professional and are paid year round?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Isn't it a fairly modern effort to make the AC a broad spectator sport. It started as a Yacht Club challenge among the wealthiest of their time. I think it is possible that the sport is being bastardized, merchandised, etc, for the ability to attract more viewers. I think it's working to a point. Although, I'm not sure it's working well enough and still requires massive loss funding.
> 
> While I'm pretty sure there have been professional crew, since the beginning (along with amateur), isn't it a very recent concept that the boats are fully professional and are paid year round?


Spectator sports is a huge industry... obviously leveraging the skill of the athletes. Since we have media... anyone can be a spectator from the LR, or even on their mobile device. Media is a financial engine... it then relies on advertisers to pay for the precious air time.... this has driven compensation to the athletes through the roof... same with pop entertainers who clearly often have questionable talents.

AC which used to be an esoteric event targeting the small population of sailors has (d)evolved into a media event not unlike the superbowl. The AC is exploiting the same hot buttons as down hill skiiing, hockey and other fast paced risky sports... Media now exploits "extreme sports" for dollars.

AC's new design criteria may be a blast for naval architects... and the participants and spectators viewing on screens as very few can get ring side seats and see anything. For that you need to various cams and aerial views... plus the high tech graphics.... more like football.

No thanks.


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## mikel1 (Oct 19, 2008)

I hope Bob Perry chimes in here . . . Can one of the mods rattle his cage?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

mikel1 said:


> I hope Bob Perry chimes in here . . . Can one of the mods rattle his cage?


He is still smarting because his design proposal didn't make the cut:

Mark


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Those look awesome. I'm in.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> Isn't it a fairly modern effort to make the AC a broad spectator sport. It started as a Yacht Club challenge among the wealthiest of their time. I think it is possible that the sport is being bastardized, merchandised, etc, for the ability to attract more viewers. I think it's working to a point. Although, I'm not sure it's working well enough and still requires massive loss funding.
> 
> While I'm pretty sure there have been professional crew, since the beginning (along with amateur), isn't it a very recent concept that the boats are fully professional and are paid year round?


It would take a pretty deep dive research project to prove it, but I really doubt that the AC has ever been raced except with professional crews. Until the rise of jet airlines it simply wouldn't have been possible to just fly your friends over for the weekend, and in the Lipton days the AC took months.


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## wjmuseler (Feb 15, 2016)

I don't see how this is going to be a viable design for match racing. Add to it the fact that stability is produced by the foils. So what happens in down speed maneuvers? What happens at high speeds in a sea state with cavitation? As with most concepts I am hoping this one meets with reality and brightens up other wise it is just another useless iteration of a once great event.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Stumble said:


> It would take a pretty deep dive research project to prove it, but I really doubt that the AC has ever been raced except with professional crews. Until the rise of jet airlines it simply wouldn't have been possible to just fly your friends over for the weekend, and in the Lipton days the AC took months.


I thought Ted Turner was noted for not paying his crew, at least not all of it. That was only 40 years ago. Pretty sure I recall our own member here, Christian Williams, who was on Ted's FastNet '79 winning boat, said no one was paid for that race.


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

Ted Turner flying on the cheap? Who would have thought....

As for the "media" pushing the new version of America's Cup on an unwilling audience, I think one might need to study capitalism further.

As for the new AC boats, I have no interest. I will just keep shucking out $100 bills to be able to be a "crew member" on the 1990's version America's Cup race boats operating as tourist excursions in the Caribbean. I was able to be a main winch grinder on the Stars and Stripes boat in Cozumel last Friday. We lost to the Canadian boat crewed by other tourists by a half boat length but it sure was fun...


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Minnewaska said:


> I thought Ted Turner was noted for not paying his crew, at least not all of it. That was only 40 years ago. Pretty sure I recall our own member here, Christian Williams, who was on Ted's FastNet '79 winning boat, said no one was paid for that race.


I professionally worked with two members of Turner's 1974 & 77 AC crew (Keith Jolly and Alan Davidson). Both stated that they were unpaid; but, did have some of their extra (travel, lodging, etc.) expenses taken care of by Turner's syndicate.


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