# Liveaboard Rant



## Aimlessness (Apr 22, 2017)

I currently live on my boat in a modest marina (it was described to me as "barebones") on a quiet creek in the midst of a residential area. The creek is amazing. At night I sit in the cockpit watching the sunset with fish jumping for flies all around me. I've been here for about a week planning to stay on the boat forever because; well, I sold everything I own except for what I needed on the boat and 4 boxes and some hand tools that are in a 5x10 self storage unit a couple miles from the marina. What's my gripe?

There are five other liveaboards in the marina. One, like me, is quiet, contemplative, philosophical, ruggedly handsome, and eco-friendly. Two of the others are living here on-the-cheap on a nearly derelict boat, but they are friendly and keep to themselves. The other lives in the slip next to mine. Friendly enough. But, this is it the gripe, she discharges into the creek. Everything goes into the creek. I was speaking with her yesterday about the long walk to the restroom when she said just go on your boat. There are no pumpout facilities at this marina and her boat is a derelict that she told me was towed into the slip. She continued telling me she just doesn't "do it a lot".

I have sailed twice in the week or so I've been here my boat is no dock-queen. As I've said I am new to sailing, new to marina living, etc. Is this attitude normal? It was all the more disturbing when she told me this because there were many boat owners here over the holiday weekend on kayaks, paddle boards, etc. enjoying what appears and should be a pristine creek.

I really need to know if this is normal. If it is, then I don't like it.

End of Rant.


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Call the USCG or the State environmental people. There laws to deal with this.
It is people like her that give all of us a bad name.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I don't think you can generalize one persons actions and tag a whole group. She is doing a dastardly thing. Report her


----------



## Jim_W (Jul 27, 2014)

It is not normal and depending on where you are is probably illegal. Why doesn't the marina have a pump out? depending on what state you are in and the size of the marina they maybe required to have a pump out


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

You've been there 'about a week'.

You should now tell the other people there what you approve of and disapprove of.
It's about time, right?

If they don't quickly get in line with your thinking, please post back and let us know.


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> I don't think you can generalize one persons actions and tag a whole group. She is doing a dastardly thing. Report her


Chef, I agree it should not be. Unfortunately as a 23yr. liveaboard I have learned that we are all tarred by the dirtiest brush.


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

RegisteredUser said:


> You've been there 'about a week'.
> 
> You should now tell the other people there what you approve of and disapprove of.
> It's about time, right?
> ...


It's a dirty and foul practice and against the law. The OP most certainly has a right to complain.
How would you like someone ****ting outside your window ?


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

boatpoker said:


> It's a dirty and foul practice and against the law. The OP most certainly has a right to complain.
> How would you like someone ****ting outside your window ?


It's clear he has it all figured out.
He's talked to the marina and has learned the laws?
No-brainer....

He's complained on the Internet.
Good as gold, take that to the bank.....

If you don't like 'something in life', just post about it....and we'll all work it out in lala land, and tell him what to do, right?


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I forgot to highlight that he had taken his boat 2 times this week.

He has an obvious advantage over those that did not do as he did.
Hes's better than they are.....

Other than the one liveaboard who is 'ruggedly handsome'.....


----------



## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

Though no one has told me how they handle their waste, it's probably more the norm than not. I believe most people in my area don't think it's a big deal to discharge #1, but they probably make the hike to the head for #2. I rarely see liveaboards move their boats or pay a mobile pump out, but I'm conflicted. Do you really want to report this person and have to live next to them? Perhaps you can ask the harbor office about how they are going to handle it? I also dive my boat, so I get it. It's an issue that I wrestle with, too.


----------



## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

RegisteredUser said:


> Other than the one liveaboard who is 'ruggedly handsome'.....


Don't forget. Some posters are female, too


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

gamayun said:


> Don't forget. Some posters are female, too


Yeah...
I've been 'transitioning' to a lesbian for about 62 years. 
Frankly, I care not.

The next best thing to genitals might be a brain....


----------



## Aimlessness (Apr 22, 2017)

I don't approve or disapprove. I asked a simple question, "Is it normal?".


----------



## Aimlessness (Apr 22, 2017)

RegisteredUser said:


> I forgot to highlight that he had taken his boat 2 times this week.
> 
> He has an obvious advantage over those that did not do as he did.
> Hes's better than they are.....
> ...


For all the haters. Eff you! I asked a simple question; "Is it normal".


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Aimlessness said:


> I don't approve or disapprove. I asked a simple question, "Is it normal?".


You posted about your disapproval.
That was the reason for your post...called rant, so don't say you don't disapprove.

Talk to the marina if you have concerns.
Take some to time to meet and learn about the people there...who may not be just like you.
You might learn things...and not be so critical...after time.

best of luck to you...really.


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

I've lived aboard for 23yrs. and have pumped out once a week without fail unless I have been more than 3 miles offshore in salt water. It is not an onerous task.

I'm a little sensitive to this issue as I have heard many times over the yrs about "those f'n liveaboards dumping in the harbour". 
I strenuously object to being tarred with that brush and will report anyone I seeing dumping in my yacht club without hesitation.


----------



## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

Don't know why you are jumping all over this OP. He posted a "rant" and asked a simple question. I don't think that puts him in la la land and I don't think you can draw conclusions about him from it. I'm pretty sure the ruggedly handsome part was him just joking. Sheesh!


----------



## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

The word "hater" used s a descriptor for anyone who disagrees compels me to believe the OP is a believer in the PC police brigade. Probably also a member of the tolerance and diversity brigade also. Unfortunately, human trash and boors as he describes are a common (and also all too large) portion of humanity. I bet if he got to know the woman in question he would find that she is also a portion of the "enlightened" part of humanity who congratulate themselves for not having a large "carbon footprint" which is causing "climate change". There are plenty of examples of that behavior right here among the membership of this fine site......

One can easily have a differing opinion without any feelings of animosity towards the person with which you are having the disagreement. Just ask my wife......Defining those who are not in complete agreement with everything a person says is not included in the definition of "mature adult."


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> The word "hater" used s a descriptor for anyone who disagrees compels me to believe the OP is a believer in the PC police brigade. Probably also a member of the tolerance and diversity brigade also. Unfortunately, human trash and boors as he describes are a common (and also all too large) portion of humanity. I bet if he got to know the woman in question he would find that she is also a portion of the "enlightened" part of humanity who congratulate themselves for not having a large "carbon footprint" which is causing "climate change". There are plenty of examples of that behavior right here among the membership of this fine site......
> 
> One can easily have a differing opinion without any feelings of animosity towards the person with which you are having the disagreement. Just ask my wife......Defining those who are not in complete agreement with everything a person says is not included in the definition of "mature adult."


I agree the use of the word "hater" is a little bit over the top ..... however .... the person he was responding too was rather unpleasant and appears to be a bit of a provocative weenie


----------



## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Most of our marinas here require that live a boards use a dye tablet in their waste system. dye won't hurt the water but does let the marina know who is dumping waste in the water.


----------



## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

Pooping in other people's swimming pools and fish ponds is rude and inconsiderate. I admire people who find creative ways to live cheaply but not if they are too cheap to pay for proper waste disposal and have to dump their waste in my backyard. I'd report her.


----------



## adki110 (Feb 27, 2011)

I am in a marina that has the ability to pump out at every slip, the other marinas in the area do not. I do not see the boats in the other marinas going to the pump out slip, draw your own conclusion.


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Aimlessness said:


> But, this is it the gripe, she discharges into the creek. Everything goes into the creek. I was speaking with her yesterday about the long walk to the restroom when she said just go on your boat.


This is really quite simple. With some very clear exception, and exceptions to the exceptions, it is illegal.

Note all links I provide are from official sources.

The discharge of raw sewage in US territorial waters is prohibited. Period. The word "raw" is important. Beyond 3 miles of shore and within 12 miles raw sewage may be discharged if macerated or chlorinated. In my opinion the product of an electric or manual toilet is macerated. The lines are marked on charts.

https://www.epa.gov/vessels-marinas...ges-statutes-regulations-and-related-laws-and

Type I and Type II marine sanitation devices (MSDs) treat waste so that it is legal to discharge. Raritan Lecra/San and Electroscan devices are examples.

https://www.epa.gov/vessels-marinas-and-ports/marine-sanitation-devices-msds

Only Type III MSDs are legal inside No Discharge Zones (NDZs).

https://www.epa.gov/vessels-marinas-and-ports/no-discharge-zones-ndzs-state

Some marinas prohibit the discharge of any sewage, including treated sewage, even though they are not in an NDZ. This becomes a matter of a civil contract vice a regulatory issue. That means no law enforcement but the potential for civil damages and certainly ejection from the marina.

Where you are in Deltaville there is no NDZ. If someone installs a Type I MSD they can legally discharge. From your description of your neighbor it seems unlikely she has done that, but it is possible.

I think you have three choices: 1. ignore it (unpleasant), 2. ask the marina to take action, or 3. call the Virginia Department of Environmental Quality for your region (http://www.deq.virginia.gov/Locations/PiedmontRegionalOffice.aspx) and ask for enforcement.

People who don't know or ignore the law in this matter, including posters in this thread, are part of the problem. The problem includes bad actors who give all boaters a bad name and make us an easy target for additional regulation.

I'm surprised your marina doesn't have a pump-out. As I recall Virginia has real incentives to marinas to install them.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The OP probably has the ability to make the offender homeless, if they choose. It's a non-sequitur that one could have a compliant marine head in use (in the US) if their boat is immobile and they do not have access to a pumpout. Flat out illegal.

That said, our discharge laws are draconian. They far exceed restrictions that are necessary for a safe marine environment. The sea is full of animal feces, decay, bacteria and all sorts of things that would cause the average person to wince. Now, I'm not advocating that we dump sewage in creeks. I would suggest that the septic systems along the shore of most creeks are already leaching more sewage into that pristine waterway that most realize. I would also say that one boat putting one excretion into the water would be a fraction of what likely already in it. Again, I'm not arguing for doing it, just trying to level set the perspective on it. 

I would argue that one person peeing in the water on a rare occasion, is just not an environmental danger. It a question of how many are doing so, therefore, the rule says no one can.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

overbored said:


> Most of our marinas here require that live a boards use a dye tablet in their waste system. dye won't hurt the water but does let the marina know who is dumping waste in the water.


So the violators pee down the sink.


----------



## Aimlessness (Apr 22, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> The word "hater" used s a descriptor for anyone who disagrees compels me to believe the OP is a believer in the PC police brigade. Probably also a member of the tolerance and diversity brigade also. Unfortunately, human trash and boors as he describes are a common (and also all too large) portion of humanity. I bet if he got to know the woman in question he would find that she is also a portion of the "enlightened" part of humanity who congratulate themselves for not having a large "carbon footprint" which is causing "climate change". There are plenty of examples of that behavior right here among the membership of this fine site......
> 
> One can easily have a differing opinion without any feelings of animosity towards the person with which you are having the disagreement. Just ask my wife......Defining those who are not in complete agreement with everything a person says is not included in the definition of "mature adult."


You're kidding right? The "woman in question" and I share time together every afternoon. We are both French enjoying the opportunity to speak our native language while sharing the meaningful moments of our days. You know, every time we spend the afternoon together that way; well, frankly I think she wants my manhood, you know.

Again, I asked a simple question in order to form an expectation and confirm a hypothesis. I called 2 dozen marinas asking if they allowed liveaboards. Only two do allow liveaboards - the marina I'm in and another with water too shallow for my boat. The resounding message I received from every other marina manager was that liveaboards are inconsiderate and besmirch the image of the marina. So, do all liveaboards sh#$t in the water and live in derelicts? That is the question I am try to get answered.

I don't know how I could have worded the question more clearly or simply? I've been a professor for nearly 30 years responses like this one remind me of the mindless ignorance of college freshman.


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> The OP probably has the ability to make the offender homeless, if they choose. It's a non-sequitur that one could have a compliant marine head in use (in the US) if their boat is immobile and they do not have access to a pumpout. Flat out illegal.


The offender has made the choice. She expects not to be caught and held accountable.

Note the exceptions, which probably don't apply, to the "flat out illegal" conclusion.

I agree that given the millions of gallons of raw sewage discharged into our waterways by many municipal systems when it rains your characterization of the laws as draconian is rational. Unfortunately the law is the law and we do not get to pick and choose which we like and which we will ignore.

Where is the line? Parking in front of a fire hydrant? Dumping a little motor oil over the side? Parking in a handicapped spot? Ignoring no-wake zones? Fishing or crabbing without a license? Ignoring stand-off distances? Who decides?

In the OP situation I'd call DEQ and prepare for a backlash from the other liveaboards and possibly the marina. I'd still make the call.


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Aimlessness said:


> I called 2 dozen marinas asking if they allowed liveaboards. Only two do allow liveaboards - the marina I'm in and another with water too shallow for my boat. The resounding message I received from every other marina manager was that liveaboards are inconsiderate and besmirch the image of the marina.


My experience is that calling marinas will result in the response you received.

If you call for an appointment and show up on time neatly dressed with pictures of a well-found and well-maintained boat you will likely find a much more open response.


----------



## Aimlessness (Apr 22, 2017)

SVAuspicious said:


> This is really quite simple. With some very clear exception, and exceptions to the exceptions, it is illegal.
> 
> Note all links I provide are from official sources.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the reply and information. I have no intention of "rocking the boat" about the discharge. The marina does have a coin operated pump out near the front of the dock. When I asked about it all I got was laughter draw your own conclusion. She couldn't get her boat to the pump out anyway because she was towed into her slip.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> ...Where is the line?.....


Speed limits on land? Let's face it, there are some brightline laws, such as murder. Others are written, with the understanding there will be some coloring outside the lines. They are reeled in to the point that actual compliance, with some avoidance, will meet the goal.

Again, I'm not advocating anyone ignore discharge laws. I'm only saying the laws were written in the extreme, when it comes to protecting the environment. I would never discharge in a creek.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Aimlessness said:


> .....So, do all liveaboards sh#$t in the water and live in derelicts? That is the question I am try to get answered.....


You're a liveaboard, so should know the answer already. If you don't, than you've disproven the hypothesis that all do. Come on man, this was a rant. Self described. It's okay to rant, but you'll get responses to a rant, not a scientific hypothesis.


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

People here need to get a grip! I bet there are much more boats discharging at night with the tide than would ever openly admit it. If you have ever been in a big anchorage somewhere with clear water and a 100 boats with no pump out boat you would know that boats s have no noticeable effect.

Just saying!


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Discharging is illegal. Hanging your @$$ over the rail and going directly into the water isn't. Maybe suggest that? :lol:


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Some of this advice might be practical if you're 100% confident the locals won't cast off your mooring lines in the middle of the night or sneak aboard while you're at work and open your seacock and sea strainer.

I would exercise caution with regards to reporting the locals to the local authorities when you are a new comer in a remote live aboard community.


----------



## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Aimlessness said:


> Thank you for the reply and information. I have no intention of "rocking the boat" about the discharge. The marina does have a coin operated pump out near the front of the dock. When I asked about it all I got was laughter draw your own conclusion. She couldn't get her boat to the pump out anyway because she was towed into her slip.


Be careful if you make this a big issue you also run the risk that the marina or some local government will whip up some "No Liveaboard" rule or regulations. You will have solved the problem but, created one for yourself.


----------



## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> The OP probably has the ability to make the offender homeless, if they choose. It's a non-sequitur that one could have a compliant marine head in use (in the US) if their boat is immobile and they do not have access to a pumpout. Flat out illegal.
> 
> That said, our discharge laws are draconian. They far exceed restrictions that are necessary for a safe marine environment. The sea is full of animal feces, decay, bacteria and all sorts of things that would cause the average person to wince. Now, I'm not advocating that we dump sewage in creeks. I would suggest that the septic systems along the shore of most creeks are already leaching more sewage into that pristine waterway that most realize. I would also say that one boat putting one excretion into the water would be a fraction of what likely already in it. Again, I'm not arguing for doing it, just trying to level set the perspective on it.
> 
> I would argue that one person peeing in the water on a rare occasion, is just not an environmental danger. It a question of how many are doing so, therefore, the rule says no one can.


Well said. Now how about those who dingy their pets ashore to defecate on the nearby pristine beach.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

overbored said:


> Most of our marinas here require that live a boards use a dye tablet in their waste system. dye won't hurt the water but does let the marina know who is dumping waste in the water.


Now that is very interesting. I'm not sure how the marina enforces someone putting the tablet in their holding tank though.

Back to the original question: Is it common? 
That's difficult to say, since nearly everyone knows it's wrong and are usually reluctant to confess the sin. The woman's comment about doing it infrequently implies a nagging sense of guilt. She knows its wrong. I suspect it's becoming less common.

I totally agree that it is unacceptable, especially in creeks and tidal areas that experience a very low rate of water exchange.
I do find it unusual that the marina has no pump out. I'm not positive, but I thought that pump out equipment was heavily subsidized by the states on the Chesapeake so that the marinas could afford to do the right thing.

I would investigate to see if there are less onerous ways for the offender to dispose of her waste, and then politely ask her to refrain. If she continues, (especially if it's not so infrequent) I'd inform the marina owner and perhaps the local water authorities.

Try to solve it at the lower level first, though.


----------



## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Aimlessness said:


> I don't approve or disapprove. I asked a simple question, "Is it normal?".


From my observations I think it is quite normal.

We have friends who, due to some medical problems, ended up staying months in a more or less land locked marina, very little water exchange. They are quite observant and use a composting head themselves. However he noted that most of the Dock queens never move and most have pretty active dockside weekend use. There are convienient toilets but he rarely saw them used. He was pretty sure many were discharging.

Many places in the world have no pump out facilities, even when the law identifies the area as an no discharge zone. Think about Georgetown in the Bahamas. 170+ boats when we were there and no pump out. Pretty good water flow though. Lots of live aboards doing water arobics.


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> The word "hater" used s a descriptor for anyone who disagrees compels me to believe the OP is a believer in the PC police brigade. Probably also a member of the tolerance and diversity brigade also.


The President of the United States uses the word "hater" in his tweets to describe people who disagree with him. Presumably this makes him a member of the PC police and the diversity brigade?


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Years ago I slipped off a bowline while walking (on it) to get to a dock in NYC. I did not like that concept, actually BEING in the wonderful green waters of my home town. It used to be worse, it has gotten better, still, it is not an enticing place to be. (Up on dock, over to hose, don't breath until face is washed down. I lived.)

So the idea of putting raw sewage next to a boat or dock, any boat or dock, that I might accidentally or intentionally swimming with? No thank you. That's just plain STUPID.

The OP does have a possibly delicate issue with this though. If the marina has been casually allowing liveaboards while the town/county/state policy is not to allow them, the marina staff (and residents!) might be very unhappy about calling in the watercops. It could result in all the liveaboards being evicted, or the marina fined and rates raised over compliance issues.

it is a delicate line to walk. More so than the one I slipped off.

And if he asks the marina staff anything directly...then they will automatically blame him for anything that pulls in watercops afterward. As of course will the culprit, who is now aware that the OP has a problem with this.

A diplomatic solution might be to feed her lots of cheese spread with lactase (dairy enzyme) mixed in. That should plug her so solid she'll never use the head again. But if her boat had to be towed in, and presumably would have to be towed out...even enforcement action could result in no real gain except a ruckus in the marina.

Best to find out the local laws, make sure the marina itself isn't going to be hurt, and only then to consider what can be done with the neighbor. Sadly, people are like that. All over. Some are gems, some would be better being burned as coal.


----------



## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Ajax_MD said:


> Now that is very interesting. I'm not sure how the marina enforces someone putting the tablet in their holding tank though.


They come by once a month and put a dye tablet in your pump out deck fitting. dye is very strong and stays in the tank for at least 3 to 4 pump outs


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> ....So the idea of putting raw sewage next to a boat or dock, any boat or dock, that I might accidentally or intentionally swimming with? No thank you. That's just plain STUPID........


In a small, contained space, one has to agree. However, what you describe is exactly what is happening in most Caribbean anchorages. The water has every appearance of being pristine, when the anchorage is not small and contained. Lots of swimming and I'm not aware or rampant feces born diseases. Urine is actually sanitary.

The amount of actual contaminants in recreational holding tanks (it's dominantly water) has about the same impact on open or moving water as moving your car across town would have on the center of the earth's axis.

I'll repeat, as these sometimes go off track. I'm not advocating discharge in harbors. I'm simply saying that peoples aversion to waste in the water is not entirely scientific.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Minne-
The common "shiny" look to hard chocolates and candies is often related to shellac, i.e. made from the nice shiny lac beetle. As is cochineal red dye, a version of which is also used as a "natural" food coloring. But ask the average shopper if they'd eat bugs. Offer them a chocolate covered grasshopper (hey, I want to save some new experiences for later) or tell them the FDA's allowable limit for rodent feces and bug parts in peanut butter...ewgh.
Still, dumping raw feces someplace where people may be coming into direct contact with it, is STUPID. Especially when it takes so little effort to either squat on a bucket, or walk over to the shore toilet. (And of course while the urine may have been sterile when it went into the holding tank, it no longer was sterile once it got in there.)
No, by all means, pee over the side and with all respect to WC Fields, I'll still swim in those waters. But with all the bugs going around these days and the price of a six month treatment on last-line antibiotics....I'd rather wear rubber gloves and keep the chlorox handy when I'm in contact with feces from strangers.
Not so fond of wearing my own feces, either. 

Really, if it is illegal, potentially unhealthy, unaesthetic, and SO cheaply and easily avoided...why dump it in the marina?

Personally I'd go for an Incinolet, but unless you'e got shore power, that's a non-starter. Takes about one kilowatt-hour per use. And, kind of a scary concept, when they say you can sit on it and use it, WHILE it is working. (Honest.)


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> ....Really, if it is illegal, potentially unhealthy, unaesthetic, and SO cheaply and easily avoided...why dump it in the marina?.......


Certainly, you realize I'm not arguing in favor of dumping in the marina.

How far away does a discharging recreational boat have to be, in order to safely swim? I bet science and peoples answers would be 1000x different.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"How far away does a discharging recreational boat have to be, in order to safely swim? I bet science and peoples answers would be 1000x different."

Well, people's answers are like elbows, we all have one. (Oh, wait, that's not an elbow?)

But science is by definition repeatable and logical, so if you really got bored this evening, calculate the length of time that various bacteria and viruses can survive in a salt or fresh water medium at a range of various temperatures (say, from 28F to 90F ?) and then calculate their probable drift dispersion rates, and some answers will turn up. Compare that to the local health department's judgment calls on "How many ppm is unsafe?" since that's their standard for closing beaches near sewage outlets after heavy rain, etc.

"Close enough so I can bump into it or swallow it" definitely meets the criteria for "too close", no matter where you set the numbers.

Really, she could just go in a bucket, toss in some kitty litter to stop the odor and leaks, and once a week, take the bucket ashore to empty it. Ain't real hard. Or build a "composting" (ha) toilet and grow tomatoes with it.(G)


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> .."Close enough so I can bump into it or swallow it" definitely meets the criteria for "too close", no matter where you set the numbers.


Agreed. That's closer than most think. I've had the admittedly unsightly opportunity to be sitting aboard and unintentionally witnessing the head being flushed out the overboard discharge in clear water. Number 2, paper and all. It wasn't pleasant to see. I was, however, amazed to note that it was completely indistinguishable within a few feet of the boat. #2 does not exit like a caddyshack candy bar. It's slurry.

Gross, I know. However, consider that animal feces are all around you as well. You are designed to fight off the small amounts of pathogens you're exposed to continuously.



> Really, she could just go in a bucket, toss in some kitty litter to stop the odor and leaks, and once a week, take the bucket ashore to empty it. Ain't real hard. Or build a "composting" (ha) toilet and grow tomatoes with it.(G)


You're right, the offender in question should not be dumping. In her circumstance, with no motor, a composter would make a lot of sense.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I think Minnewaska is making a lot of sense on this one. Is the girl crapping in the water or having a few pees that she puts over board, or in the sink or in the bilge? Late at night, maybe she doesn't feel comfortable walking to the can, maybe she's a little tipsy and doesn't want to get on and off a boat with no one around?

I'm not condoning sewage in a creek, but really? A solo live aboard peeing in the creek after hours doesn't really seem like that big of a deal to me.


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Urine is sterile and non toxic. If it were the other way around, you would be dead in a very short time.

Poop, well, that's a different story, but it takes an enormous amount to pollute a creek or river. 

Gary


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

What a bunch of softies. Knew an old fart, boat leaked like a sieve so he just peed in the bilge and pump took care of it. We went aboard for coffefe once. No running water so just a quick shake below the floorboards prepped the mugs.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Capt Len said:


> We went aboard for coffefe once.
> 
> You mispelled covfefe :devil


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

My gods blood, Sorry about the typo. Probably being missled by some nearly illiterate dufus. I realize I'd be the laughing stock of the world if I carried on like that.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

Aimless: Let's just review the new information that you have added. 
1. Both yourself and the woman in question are French.
2. You have been a college professor for some length of time which means that you are highly educated.
3. You and the woman are more than neighbors and you believe that she has been swayed by your manliness and natural French charm.
4. I am a stupid Red Neck and should go back to the hole I crawled from.

Is that a pretty accurate assessment? Why don't you use your natural good looks, wisdom, and professorial ways to convince her to use your head when she needs to have relief of her bowels? That should be a much simpler option than asking a bunch of dolts on a sailing website. Who knows, she may repay your kindness with her female assets...........

Meanwhile, I will go back to running my business, paying my taxes, living in a nice home, and thanking God that I did not waste my time going to college.......


----------



## Morild (Mar 31, 2013)

Lots of discussion on poop here.
What I don't get is, why anyone in a marina would take a dump in the head of the boat?!?!
Why stink up your boat, and carry it in a tank (or stupidly pump it into the water) when there are toilets nearby?
Come on, it's a little exercise too.
I ONLY use the head for a dump, when I am at sea and really really has to go.
Using the head for that in a marina? Come on

EDIT:
Maybe it's because of the standards of marina facilities. Where I am from, there are always fine and clean restrooms in the marinas. I can see why it would be different if that is not the case.

This is from the marina where I keep my boat.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

No marine waste system has to stink. They often do because landlubbers assume they should work just like they do at home and mistakenly leave sewage in the hoses. More often, the system isn't set up to properly drain or ventilate. Get it right and it's as reliable and odor free as home.

As for walking to the marina head, we always do so, when we know we won't pump out again, before leaving for work for a few days. Otherwise, I would no sooner walk to my neighbors to relive myself than I would walk to the marina restrooms, with a functioning head aboard. 

As for (legally) dumping in the water, a large percentage of shore based sewage is put right back in the Bay by our municipalities themselves. My holding gets dumped where it will never (and I mean never) impact the environment.


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Aimlessness said:


> You're kidding right? The "woman in question" and I share time together every afternoon. We are both French enjoying the opportunity to speak our native language while sharing the meaningful moments of our days. You know, every time we spend the afternoon together that way; well, frankly I think she wants my manhood, you know.
> 
> Again, I asked a simple question in order to form an expectation and confirm a hypothesis. I called 2 dozen marinas asking if they allowed liveaboards. Only two do allow liveaboards - the marina I'm in and another with water too shallow for my boat. The resounding message I received from every other marina manager was that liveaboards are inconsiderate and besmirch the image of the marina. So, do all liveaboards sh#$t in the water and live in derelicts? That is the question I am try to get answered.
> 
> I don't know how I could have worded the question more clearly or simply? I've been a professor for nearly 30 years responses like this one remind me of the mindless ignorance of college freshman.


A picture of the french woman would greatly help. :smile We are mostly men here after all. Are you overlooking the big picture??
Seriously this all sounds great, except for the poo.

Look, I think it comes down to #1 is okay and #2 is not okay. I myself have a pipe from a disconnected sink that I have occasionally used while sailing.

And if romance is a factor you do not report but if it is not a factor,

- then you do everyone a favor and drop a dime on her.


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Ever gone to the Bahamas and swam with the pigs? Ever see how much poop that 1000 pound pig lets go?

I have no doubt that a good percent of boats are discharging their holding tanks. Just consider that for the most part you can't tell.

If you discharge a 50 gal holding tank in an anchorage that is 100 yd x 100 yd x 10 ft deep, thats 0.0000074 ppm. That's a very very very very small number.

Boaters didn't come up with this 3 mile limit thing. Land people did so they could say they were "taking action".


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Morild said:


> Lots of discussion on poop here.
> What I don't get is, why anyone in a marina would take a dump in the head of the boat?!?!


We're talking about live aboards. A pic of my old boat in live aboard mode. Walk to the marina washrooms? No thanks.


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I use my head while in a marina, that's why I have it on the boat. If yours don't there is probably some other reason to fix.

BTW - I use the shower on the boat while in a marina if the water is free. Why would I want to pack all my stuff and go walk to the showers instead?


----------



## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

Aimlessness said:


> I've been a professor for nearly 30 years responses like this one remind me of the mindless ignorance of college freshman.


i have spent 6 years in undergraduate university education and three years in masters level education receiving top grades in most of my classes. As such, i have gotten to know a wide assortment of college and university professors. Far too many are full of themselves and their own "wisdom". Far too many think of themselves as superior to those outside of academia. Far too many have huge blindsides and limited understanding outside of their own narrow area of expertise. As a result, my respect for college professors as a whole has decreased over the years. This comment only reinforces my viewpoint.
jon


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> Meanwhile, I will go back to running my business, paying my taxes, living in a nice home, and thanking God that I did not waste my time going to college.......


You sound a little bitter.


----------



## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

60 Posts on crapping in the water, I guess I'm as bad as everyone else now.


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I think It now is becoming crapping on others


----------



## bajaking (Jun 6, 2013)

Don't get me started on the impossibility of ever finding a legit liveaboard slip, thanks to lazy harbormasters and crappy (pun intended) jerks that just want a cheap, cramped, waterfront apartment--seaworthiness an afterthought. Sucks for us rule abiding citizens that already eat, sleep, and breathe sailing, and want to live it, too.
Rant over.

I know this is secondary, but do people care about grey water? Is that a thing? 
Yes, pee is gross and poop potentially poisonous, but to me, all the other stuff that gets drained or pumped overboard, perfectly legally and on a more frequent basis, is not much better: shower water, food scraps, various cleaning chemicals, whatever gunk you washed off your hands with GoJo in your galley sink, the used paint thinner my former dock neighbor didn't feel like packaging up to drop at the local hazardous waste, etc. I feel kind of icky when I wash dishes after cooking aboard and especially icky on the occasions I've seen the bits floating around the boat in a slack tide. Or am I just being a ridiculous germophobe?

Oh, and I agree: the OP needs to post a pic of the almost-happy French couple as they share the tea that is bound for sea via her pee. Oui?


----------



## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

Pee is one thing, and you probably wouldn't even notice it. But some marinas have fairly protected, still, and stagnant water. Unless there is a lot of current, small floaters hanging out between mine and my neighbor's boat would be pretty gross.

The fact that her boat cannot move from the slip without being towed is part of the problem. I would ask her to "please don't" and get her an RV style porta potty and a bag of sawdust.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> .....Boaters didn't come up with this 3 mile limit thing....


That's true. It is simply the limit to which the States have been delegated to authority to regulate federal waters. If they had been given the authority out to 50 miles, we would probably have NDZs out that's far. There is zero science to the limit.

If anything, it probably gives some the idea that a holding tank must be more dangerous than it is, if it needs to be that far.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

bajaking said:


> ....to me, all the other stuff that gets drained or pumped overboard, perfectly legally and on a more frequent basis, is not much better: shower water, food scraps, various cleaning chemicals, whatever gunk you washed off your hands with GoJo in your galley sink, the used paint thinner my former dock neighbor didn't feel like packaging up to drop at the local hazardous waste, etc. I feel kind of icky when I wash dishes after cooking aboard and especially icky on the occasions I've seen the bits floating around the boat in a slack tide. Or am I just being a ridiculous germophobe?........


There have been EPA proposals to regulate grey water, just like black water. Some harbors, such as Nantucket, already have some local ordinance. You may not wash your boat with soap or run a washer or dishwasher in ACK harbor.

As for your list, it contains extremes from perfectly acceptable to entirely unacceptable.

You may not and should not put chemicals, such as paint thinner in the water. Ever.

As for your shower water, if that grosses you out, it's simply psychological. Would you ban swimming in the water? Think about all the animals already in the water. You're just another.

Food bits should not go down the drain. Wipe the plate into the garbage first. If not for the environment, they will clog the sink drain hose anyway. The one that does kill me, however, is the prohibition over throwing the lobster carcasses back in the same water they were harvested from and would have died in, if we hadn't eaten them.

Soaps are the controversial issue. Bath, hand, dish, boat, etc, soaps. We should all use environmentally friendly soaps. However, what environmentally friendly or biodegradable means is not clear. I'm told that some biodegradeables will take years. That's a tough one, where we should all do the best we can, but the chemistry isn't perfect yet.

Finally, if we did hold our our grey water, which is not practical, where would it go? If you pumped it ashore, into the sewer systems, where would it then go?........ answer..... right back into the ocean/river/lake. That's where most of them drain to now.


----------



## Aimlessness (Apr 22, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> Aimless: Let's just review the new information that you have added.
> 1. Both yourself and the woman in question are French.
> 2. You have been a college professor for some length of time which means that you are highly educated.
> 3. You and the woman are more than neighbors and you believe that she has been swayed by your manliness and natural French charm.
> ...


1 through 4 are correct sir. And; again, for all of you who rode the short bus to school what I want to know is if, in general, sailboat liveaboards live in derelict boats and sh$t in the water next to my boat.

I watched a lot of people yesterday mowing and trimming their lawns, planting flowers, and doing other household chores while I was lounging in my cockpit. They, like you, pay taxes, live in nice homes and all, like you, are slaves to an economic system intended for the sole purpose of self-perpetuation. Had you gone to college you might have learned the proper use of the ellipse (...)


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Aimlessness said:


> , for all of you who rode the short bus to school what I want to know is if, in general, sailboat liveaboards live in derelict boats and sh$t in the water next to my boat.


Some do! Now are you going to use your self proclaimed superior education etc. and do something about it other that crying on an internet forum.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Aimlessness said:


> I want to know is if, in general, sailboat liveaboards live in derelict boats and sh$t in the water next to my boat.


This is a silly question. Of course not. Live aboard facilities in nice cities are not appealing to people with derelict boats. At a down town marina in one major city I paid $1200 a month for a slip. There was a mobile pump out that came to each boat. The workers hooked up the pump out, I didn't even need to get out of bed. The boats were all very nice sailboats owned by knowledgeable, responsible owners. The marina wouldn't even let you have a live aboard slip until you convinced them you were knowledgeable and responsible.

Minnewaska, as far as biodegradable soaps go, I think a big component is buying phosphate free soap. The phosphates in most household soaps promote excessive marine growth.


----------



## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

bajaking said:


> Don't get me started on the impossibility of ever finding a legit liveaboard slip, thanks to lazy harbormasters and crappy (pun intended) jerks that just want a cheap, cramped, waterfront apartment--seaworthiness an afterthought. Sucks for us rule abiding citizens that already eat, sleep, and breathe sailing, and want to live it, too.
> Rant over.
> 
> I know this is secondary, but do people care about grey water? Is that a thing?
> ...


No you're just being responsible.


----------



## bajaking (Jun 6, 2013)

Arcb said:


> At a down town marina in one major city I paid $1200 a month for a slip....The boats were all very nice sailboats owned by knowledgeable, responsible owners. The marina wouldn't even let you have a live aboard slip until you convinced them you were knowledgeable and responsible.


Yes! I'd like to find such a Shangri-la. Glad to know this exists somewhere. In the SF Bay area, the marinas that allow living aboard (or used to -- the marinas are either closing entirely or eliminating liveaboards) charge entirely way too little for liveaboard fees, thus attracting the derelicts and their non-boating inhabitants. And then they complain that liveaboards are a nuisance.

For christ's sake, just charge the same as local apartment rental rates and everyone wins: they make a lot more money and the "good" liveaboards get a better environment where their neighbors are less likely to pump overboard. Why is that so difficult, especially for the private marinas that can charge whatever they want? Am I being naive about this?

I once looked at a lien sail boat that a liveaboard abandoned after being jailed for using the boat for drug related activities. The harbormaster running the lien sail seemed almost surprised at that outcome. When your liveaboard fee is only $150 or so above the slip fee in a major metropolitan area, what do you expect?


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

bajaking said:


> .......For christ's sake, just charge the same as local apartment rental rates and everyone wins: they make a lot more money and the "good" liveaboards get a better environment where their neighbors are less likely to pump overboard. Why is that so difficult, especially for the private marinas that can charge whatever they want? Am I being naive about this?.....


You said you live in SF, right? Can you picture an uproar over the gentrification of a middle class living space. You're proposing that to live aboard you must be able to afford rent and a boat. Gasp. 

Actually, to avoid derelicts, I like the rules that state your boat must leave its slip, under its own power every so often. The best way to deal with discharge is to provide a mobile pump out. Include the cost in the slip or live aboard fees. I used to be in a marina where you tied an orange flag to your lifeline, over your pump out fitting. They came around, even while you were away, and pumped you out. That's the price of admission, if one wants a dump free harbor.


----------



## grandpa_simpson (Jun 4, 2017)

travlin-easy said:


> Urine is sterile and non toxic. If it were the other way around, you would be dead in a very short time.


You might want to try typing the following into Google: "is urine sterile?" You might learn something.


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I see it as a marina management issue.
A locked/wired valve with or w/o mandatory scheduled pump outs is one way.
Raising rates meant to keep out the 'scum/lower class/stupid, etc' is a horrible idea.
That's how you create 2 'classes'....


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

The marina I referred to above wasn't some kind of weird elitist marina nor were the residents fancy pants. Most were regular hard working people who were willing to pay for a location that was close to work and close to entertainment.

I could see my office from my slip. 4 minute walk to work, 6 minutes if I stopped at Tim Hortons for a coffee. I'd say that's worth paying a bit of a premium for.

There was no real live aboard fee. $600/month for your slip. $600/month flat rate for hydro (marina live aboard use quite a bit of hydro, most had 60 or 90 amp systems). Plus $60/month mobile pump out fee.

The prices were maybe a little bit higher than some of the competition, but I don't think unreasonable when you break it down. 

What gave them some control over who tied up there was the fact that it was a super nice marina in an excellent location. Walking distance to subway, major league baseball, NHL, NBA, theaters, an airport, shopping, pubs, clubs etc and only maybe 40 slips.

Long waiting list to get in, which meant marina management could be really picky about who's application they accepted. There were no vacant slips.

Lots of money and a higher education wasn't what got you in. They just didn't want folks who would be a liability or cause problems.


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

If the marinas do not manage well within current regulations, they only invite moooore regulations.

Marinas are owned and operated by many different types of people/families/biz. The corp biz marinas often have different longterm goals than the mom 'n pops.

Smart self-regulation is always cheaper in the long run.

I don't think I typed anything new or enlighting...


----------



## D-Wes (Jun 4, 2017)

Why not just talk to the woman about your concerns? Treat her like a human being and have a conversation with her rather than trying to go behind her back and report her without first giving her a chance to fix the problem. You could even do it in the guise of explaining the importance of not getting fined when she is clearly on a tight budget and can ill afford it. You could offer her the use of your head when she needs to poop since you can pump yours out. You could suggest that she get a composting toilet or a porta potty. You could even offer to buy her one if you think she can't afford it and you want to do your part to keep sewage out of the creek. For heaven's sake just talk to her about it!


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

D-Wes said:


> Why not just talk to the woman about your concerns? Treat her like a human being and have a conversation with her rather than trying to go behind her back and report her without first giving her a chance to fix the problem......


No way.
We have internet forums now...and Net social stuff where people can turn themselves into something they are not..and feel good about it.

Your post reeks of sanity and normal, well-mannered human behavior.


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Just plug up the hole that the offending material is coming out of


----------



## bajaking (Jun 6, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> I like the rules that state your boat must leave its slip, under its own power every so often.


Yes, exactly, except unfortunately most marinas here don't seem to have those rules -- certainly don't enforce them if they do. Of the four area marinas I've berthed at and dozen more I visited or toured for potential berthing, none had these rules and the consequences are apparent. Long wait lists and slightly higher fees at the best located marinas don't appear to make much difference. The few expensive/elite marinas cater to 40'+ boats and don't have smaller slips. Just like houses, small means lower class inhabitants with lower standards (or so the marina reasoning appears to be).

At my current dock of about 50 boats, we have maybe 10 that leave their slip at least a few times a year, maybe another 10 that never leave but the owners come down for dockside picnics and basic boat maintenance, and the rest vary from just neglected to outright dangerous. One sank in its slip a few months ago, leaving an environmental mess and a financial burden on various parties. Could have easily been avoided if they just had Minnewaska's rules in place.

"Mr & Mrs Smith, I know you're current on your slip payment and insurance, but please come down and wash your boat, pump it out, and leave the dock for at least 4 hours by next month, or we will begin doubling your slip fee, per the berthing contract you signed. And if you still don't address this within 6 months, we will begin the lien sale process, also per the contract you signed!" This would, of course, require marina management that does stuff besides watch youtube videos and take naps with the "back in 1 hour" sign on the door. They might have to actually go out on the dock [gasp!] to verify the Smiths took care of business. Gee, do I sound bitter enough about the whole marina industry?


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

One thing about forums, you can really get a feeling about who you wouldn't want to be neighbors with.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Hey guys and gals lets be pragmatic. I've now spent several seasons half in Caribbean ( no rules- in fact boats with no holding tanks exist) and half in US.
If you pee over the side ( a leading cause of drowning) its legal ( don't get caught though as you may be charged for indecent exposure you sex offender you). Yes fresh pee is sterile as pointed out and has no real environmental impact.
Poo,even untreated poo, will disperse to be invisible within ~50' of site of discharge. Anyone who lives on the anchor in the Caribbean has seen this demonstrated. If salinity is sufficient and amounts nominal the bacteria who live in the low salinity environment of your guts will not survive in the ocean. 
However, in brackish waters or waters where there is little tidal exchange viable e.coli and pathogenic bacteria may persist and contaminate shell beds.
Given the above what ones sees in the real world is Road Town stinks as does Nanny Key and the lagoon in St.Martin but bottom cleaners use no special precautions and don't get sick. Marigot, Culebra and Sopers don't stink although the density of liveaboards and boats is as high.
Now the real threat in environments with poor exchange is cleaning agents. The European response in some areas is no discharge of grey water as well as black. So don't complain about US restrictions.
All this is an unfortunately necessary action by our government in that they have the firm belief as proven by who we've elected for the last several decades the the US public is uninformed and irresponsible. It seems reality is there are many places on the US coasts where direct discharge would have no significance adverse impact but we are not in a position where we can reliably choose so all are outlawed.
So returning to the OP. Have a heart to heart with her. If no change in behavior do what you got to do. EPA is the "soup nazi" and you want to keep them away but if they do an unannounced inspection it may have impact on the marina not just her.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

Minne: I don't understand why you think I sound bitter. I own a business that does about 1.5 million annually, a rental house, a duplex, a commercial rental unit, and my house is paid for. Why would I be bitter about not spending a small fortune for being indoctrinated????


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

outbound-
"If you pee over the side ( a leading cause of drowning) "
Ergh, alleged cause, not proven cause. Bear in mind there's often excess booze found in those bodies, which caused the sloppy peeing in the first place. And oddly enough, an XY chromosome pair seems to be crucial to the mix.(G)
As to why the divers aren't getting sick, who would know if they did?
Consider that when there's a sewer flood during heavy rains n the US, the floodwater is contaminated. Enough so that health and utility workers may be getting Hepatitis A/B shots to help prevent illness. But Hep A/B and even Hep C keep being a problem--and no one knows where they usually have been spread from.
Other diseases that can be transferred in human waste are largely eliminated (polio, dysentery) in the "civilized" world, so the sewage won't be carrying them. Still, it only takes one person who has gotten infected to cause a problem. The words "Typhoid Mary" come to mind. It took how many people how many years to pin that down?
So maybe we in the West seem a little overconcerned with hygiene and sanitation, with the last of the great plagues perhaps behind us. TB, Polio, Smallpox...a growing list but in some parts of the world, these things still kill. 
In fact the US DoS says a number of diseases are still prevalent in Haiti, not so far from you, including CHOLERA, which people spread amongst themselves.
Malaria
Dengue
Chikungunya
Cholera
Zika

The others will perhaps sadly require large amounts of DDT to stop their spread, here and abroad.

How many centuries ahead of the West in basic sanitation practices were China and Japan when they were "discovered" ?


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> outbound-
> "If you pee over the side ( a leading cause of drowning) "


Myth, and before you say it isn't post a link to something to support it

And I doubt peeing over the side is responsible for more than 0.00001% of waterborne diseases, but I don't have a link


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Peeing off the back of a porch or the back of a boat is in the top 10 of Man Things...last time I looked...


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> Myth, and before you say it isn't post a link to something to support it.


The Lifesaving Society in Canada seems to think it's a thing. It was just the first link to appear in a search, followed by a bunch of actual news articles describing the occurrence.

Boating and Fishing Safety Tips - Lifesaving.ca - Sauvetage.ca


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> The Lifesaving Society in Canada seems to think it's a thing. It was just the first link to appear in a search, followed by a bunch of actual news articles describing the occurrence.
> 
> Boating and Fishing Safety Tips - Lifesaving.ca - Sauvetage.ca


A good friend retired a few years ago from his position as Senior Marine Investigator of the (Canadian) Transportation Safety Board. He agrees with what was stated in the link you provided.

a liitle off topic but .... He also told me that a significant percentage of people who drowned after falling off boats actually made it back to the boat but could not get back on, even with other crew helping. I have personally witnessed three very near drownings for this reason. In one case there was no re-boarding ladder, in another the ladder was blocked by a dinghy and in the third case a singlehander could not deploy his own ladder from the water. I once ran MOB drills and if you think you can lean over and pull someone out of the water, you are in for a surprise.


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I hold my swim ladder in place with a single strip of plastic ribbon. I was amazed at just how much pressure it took to break that ribbon and deploy the ladder. And, when the ladder deployed, it nearly hit me in the head. If it would have, I think I would have been rendered unconscious.

Peeing overboard doesn't account for any waterborne diseases - urine is completely sterile, and while you can drink it, it's not real tasty, and you cannot survive on it because the volume is insufficient to replace what you lose in hot weather, most of which is through perspiration. Additionally, 5 percent of urine comprises a diverse collection of waste products, including nitrogen, potassium, and calcium—and too much of these can cause problems. The other 95 percent of the contents are merely water.

All the best,

Gary


----------



## Theislandlady (Mar 13, 2016)

I would have no qualms in telling the person that is not acceptable and also in reporting the activity. Could suggest a composting head, but sounds like that might be a costly option. If the marina doesn't care, then I would move after reporting the marina to the appropriate authorities. Raw sewage is unhealthy not only to humans, but to other creatures.


----------



## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

travlin-easy said:


> ...urine is completely sterile, and while you can drink it, it's not real tasty,...
> 
> Gary


I still don't want to swim in it. And urine wouldn't be my biggest objection to my neighbor discharging the contents of their holding tank in still, stagnant water next to my slip. If every liveaboard person or couple in a marina discharged 1 or 2 bowel movements a night, in a back water marina, things could get acrid.

I think that discharging feces in the stagnate water of a marina is the act of a lazy and selfish person. Get a bucket, get the $70 Coleman porta-potty, or walk to the marina bathroom.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

You guys are leaving out the idea that the OP is figuring on getting a piece of pisces from his fellow Frenchie expat. He merely wants to change her lifestyle without endangering his own entertainment. After all, he is (according to him) a college professor.......


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Gary the salinity of pee is usually higher than body tissues. Drinking it does not replace fluid loss. People dying of dehydration still die if that's what they are drinking to try to stay hydrated. 
Just remember "gentlemen sit to pee" and you'll be fine. 
Personally also prefer crew doesn't pee in the shower


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Yes, it is higher, but just a tiny bit from what I remember in my anatomy and physiology classes. Personally, I wouldn't consider drinking pee, but I have read some WWII articles where some downed pilots and shipwrecked sailors managed to slow their rate of dehydration by drinking their own urine. Yuck! 

Others managed to survive by drinking the blood of fish and sea birds they caught. I read one article in WWII History Magazine where three pilots survived more than 3 months on a rubber raft drinking small amounts of rainwater and blood from fish - Amazing!

Gary


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

ianjoub said:


> Just plug up the hole that the offending material is coming out of


Or you could tap a plug into the through hull that the tank dumps from...


----------



## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Damn you all... I just read every post which took me about 30 minutes... I will never get those 30 minutes back. Arg 🤗


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

outbound said:


> ....
> Personally also prefer crew doesn't pee in the shower


Then what's left to/can do...
Where's the list....


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

travlin-easy said:


> ....I read one article in WWII History Magazine where three pilots survived more than 3 months on a rubber raft drinking small amounts of rainwater and blood from fish - Amazing!
> 
> Gary


At what point do people 'give up'?
They didn't learn theirs.
They didn't have a towel...to throw into the ring, so they couldn't give up.

Hardcore and real...


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Believe me, these guys, while in reality, they were only kids, were definitely hard core. My Uncle Robert was a marine when he was just 17 years old, lied about his age to join the corps, and had his 18th birthday on Iwo-jima. He was wounded 3 times and patched up in field hospitals, then after a week, sent back to the front. He eventually contracted malaria, damned near died from it, and they sent him home. He had been in combat nearly 3 years straight, and because he managed to survive his wounds, everyone thought he was a good luck charm and stayed as close to him as they could get. A lot of them never made it home.

His brother Richard, at 15 stood 6-3 and tipped the scales at about 220 pounds. Because of his size and appearance, he too forged his birth certificate and joined the Marine Corps. He fought at a dozen island battles, including Gaudalcanal, was wounded with grenade shrapnel there, as was back at the font lines within a week. He said you had to damned near be dead before you got to go home. He also served more than 3 years in the corps. He later became a LA cop, then opened his own private detective agency in LA, which he ran until he retired and moved to Oklahoma. He was tough as nails till the day he died from lung cancer.

All the best,

Gary


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

IIRC, they had some MRE-type kits back then with 'smokes/cigs' included.

Probably not called MREs then....


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Read The Bombard Expedition' Morroco to the Caribe in a drifting Zod About 90 days if I remember and didn't't take any water or supplies. To prove his point. he survived and died long time later (kidney failure.) Number one cause of death in Mexican farm workers too. Maybe a lesson there.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I think we are all wimps. Just finished "Boys in the Boat". Book about a bunch of washington state boys who won gold into the Hilter Olympics. Think all current H.S. kids should read it. Get rid of a lot of "I'm entitled" BS.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

P.S- My dad was at Army station when Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Then forward observer/logistics. Got rubber boated off sub on to islands in south Pacific then hid out until at island was invaded. He'd come out of hiding then and after a bit of r and r do it again on another island. Went through a lot of partners.Never talked about until he was in his 80's. Also worked for wild Bill for awhile. Yup we are all wimps.


----------



## timangiel (Sep 8, 2006)

You should try to find out exactly why her boat requires towing. What if it turned out to be a relatively simple problem that you could help her fix, then she could go pump out instead of dumping. Or you could offer to tow her over. No easy answers. Good luck


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------

