# Monohull vs cat on extended passage?



## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

I''ve recently (Nov) participated in my first real blue water passage. I helped sail a boat from Aruba to Cayman. The tradewinds were 15 - 25 knts with 20kts most common. Seas were 6-8ft most of the way. I have advanced coastal skipper qualifications as well as some blue water experience, gained while sailing around Vancouver Island. However this was the first time I was continuously sailing non-stop for more that a week.
The surprising thing for me was how tough it was. Not because of physical labor, but exhausting. I managed very little sleep, and felt queezy for the first two days, then again after we turned from a reach to close hauled for the last two days. Never "lost it" but felt drained and didn''t feel like doing much of anything, other than my watches and actively participating in the sailtrim and checking for trafic.
The relentless motion of the boat (43ft center cockpit), the watch system chosen by the captain, the heat (no fan over my bunk and hatches closed because of spray) and the absence of a lee-cloth on my bunk, made for severe sleep-deprevation.
I did get used to it later in the trip and funnily enough felt more queezy the first night on hard land than on the boat at that time.

I learnt a lot, especially some things I''d do differently. It was a very rewarding experience for me nontheless. The crew bonded and got along extremely well with hardly any "words" of discontent. The fact that all of us had confidence that the others knew what they were doing and that the boat was well found, certainly helped.

My question is this: I''d like to hear from people who have sailed cats offshore. I''d like to hear whether cats also induce seasickness/queezyness in some people, and how the different motion of cats is tolerated over extended periods of time. I believe cats do well downwind and less well beating - how "less well"? I''ve heard the motion is jerky and can be violent. How would that stack up to monohull rolling?

M Murphy


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## bombayduck (Dec 14, 2004)

Having done offshore passages on both monohull and catamaran, I can say that both can be uncomfortable but the downwind rolling motion on the monohull is absent on the catamaran. It is much more comfortable on a catamaran on this point of sail. Also, there is minimal heeling on all points of sail, so this in itself makes passages less tiring. The motion of a catamaran is quicker in a seaway because there is no ballast but one gets used to the motion in a day or so. I do get less seasick on a cat than a mono but only a little less so.

Brad


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## starcresttoo (Aug 30, 2004)

its my understanding that all multihulls are extremely stable once they are upside down


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## bombayduck (Dec 14, 2004)

Hello starcresttoo. It seems like there is some dislike of catamarans here? All I can say to your comment is that monohulls are extremely stable once they are on the bottom.


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

I only get this second hand, but i talked to a very experienced delivery skipper (he was a crew member in Fastnet ''79 and has circumnavigated several times). He says he prefers a monohull''s motion to the "slap, slap, slap" of a cat, though admits the more modern cat designs have somewhat solved the problem.


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

M, you might find this discussion of an offshore cat sailing experience by a two-time (monohull) circumnavigator to be of interest:

www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=baldwi0009

One of the incidental observations by the author is the large number of (semi-interdependent) systems on the Cat he took from Brazil to the Caribbean. IME it''s very rare to find a modern Cat which isn''t (over)laden with all kinds of systems, somewhat spoiling the other benefits. ''Systems'' and ''Cats'' don''t have to be synonymous but IMO all the SPACE invites abuse.

I could tell you some pretty funny stories about Lewis, who started out with a basic English-built 35'' Cat he sailed over to St. Pete from Texas. There was just soooo much SPACE on his Cat, he couldn''t resist adding a few things...and then a few more. Meanwhile, he pulled away from the dock one day and his only working Volvo diesel blew up. But that didn''t seem to be a problem because, due to his Cat''s LARGE transom, he could rip out the engines and build a dual stainless open-bottomed boxes cantilevered off the back, to which he could mount twin outboards. By the time he left St. Pete, he had a PWC on deck, acres of canvas to provide U/V protection in that WIDE cockpit, double freezers in their LONG galley...well, you get the picture.

It''s easy for those of us sailing Lead Mines to sneer a bit at Cats; they are built in light-weight ways that make me nervous, offshore. But Lewis also a good example of how crews can benefit. When out of money (Lewis didn''t work much...) he''d charter the boat to young backpackers wanting cheap transport around the Caribbean, his boat would always make it to port (his lady friend holed one hull by hitting an oil rig in the Gulf of Mexico during her night watch, on one of many exciting passages) and last I heard via Winlink they were adding yet more gear in a Panama Canal yard before heading into the Pacific.

Who says there aren''t still adventures to be had when off cruising...?

Jack


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## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

Thanks for all the responses so far.

I personally own a Dufour 36 classic so I guess the question is a bit academic. However there''s always "the next boat"...

I used to race Hobie cats and that was great. However probably not much overlap with a cruising cat.

When recently in Aruba I met a family who is cruising and living on a St. Frances 48 cat. Since the owner is an expatriate South African like myself, he invited me onboard and showed me his SA built cat. I came away jealous of the space, the equipment onboard and the "possibility" of more comfortable passagemaking. According to him, this cat doesn''t suffer from slamming. He does admit that the upwind motion is jerkier than a monohull and that they don''t "point" very well.

I guess one is always thinking about "the next boat". At the moment I''m content with my Dufour, although I''m doing coastal cruising only at the moment. I''ve never really considered cats untill I stepped aboard the St. Francis.

M Murphy


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## Johnno (Dec 23, 2004)

Hi,

After your good post I was hoping to read some informative stuff. Regrettably not so and you just got all the usual bias. 

Maybe one day we will be able to get somebody who has done significant passages in both, perhaps in similar conditions to give a real analysis. 

I''m a monosailer myself but I acknowledge that cats have a place and seem very attractive given their space and potential capability.

Even old sea dogs like me are interested in listening and learning to informed comment.

Johnno


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Spend some time cruising and living aboard and you will hear the same info from multihull cruisers. 

The boats don''t go to windward well so plan your route accordingly. They don''t tolerate loads...that makes them slow like monohulls but without windward performance. 40''cat = 2 people lightly cruise loaded. The motion while anchored is sharp and uncomfortable...swells lift one hull and it falls, then they do the same with the other hull...double motion and fast. Chose your anchorage carefully. Running with storms can take you along as fast as the storm moves so don''t run. Windvanes are tough to keep adjusted due to rapid ap wind changes. Finding slips can be a chore or you have to pay for two. Your inflatable can be kept under the hulls so it stays out of UV rays and lasts longer. Shallow draft a plus. Cost a negative. Nice sunning platform when capsized.


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Here''s a follow-up to Bill''s post, taken from one of the Bumfuzzle logs (www.bumfuzzle.com). 35'' LOA Cat, attempting to make Galapagos from Las Perlas Is. off the coast of Panama. Rhumbline was SW, with wind 25 kts from the SW:

"By that night we were getting way off course, probably about 100 miles east of where we wanted to be.... The big problem now was that the wind was kicking up to 30 knots and the seas had continued to build. This combined with the current was causing us trouble. Picture this. We wanted to be heading at 230 degrees, which is right where the wind was. Instead we pointed the boat at 195 degrees. However, even though the boat was pointed at 195 we were actually moving at 100 degrees. That''s how much the[Humbolt] current and waves were pushing the boat. We couldn''t make any forward progress whatsoever. And obviously if we tacked the other direction we would be heading straight north, which we really didn''t want. Also, in order to even be able to make this direction, we had to be running an engine as well. So we were burning a lot of diesel.

"The next day we were only a little over 100 miles from the coast of Colombia. We started out the day by tacking back and forth which basically moved us back and forth along the same line not making any progress at all. We did this all day while I continued to download weather and try to figure out an alternate plan. The weather was still showing maximum winds of 12 knots from the same direction for the next 3 days, even though for the last 48 hours we hadn''t seen anything under 25. Finally at 3 p.m. I had a new plan. Unless we wanted to continue beating back and forth and wait for an improvement in the weather, we were going to have to head for shore. And since we were quickly running out of diesel, with over 600 miles to go to the Galapagos, we opted for running with the wind to Colombia."

The owners know littel about sailling and so the boat may have been more capable than this entry reflects. Also, she''s enroute to the Marquesas on the next leg, so the boat was probably loaded down...which is always a problem with Cats as they take loading poorly, especially when asked to go to weather.

Not that they don''t have their advantages...

Jack


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## bombayduck (Dec 14, 2004)

The very worst thing you can do to a catamaran is to overload her. It''s a problem with "all that space" and the temptation to fill it up but overloading a cat will surely degrade performance to a great degree.

Brad


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## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

Thanks again all. Choices, choices.

I find it interesting that there are almost NO cats in the Pacific Northwest. Having one will cause all sorts of problems with finding berthing etc. Also, since we don''t have any real problems with shoals (other than rocks) having shallow draft is not such a big advantage. Usually we have difficulty with it being too deep to anchor!

I''ve mentioned that I own a Dufour 36 classic. I like the boat a lot for what I''m doing (coastal cruising). I do consider taking her offshore at some stage (maybe a jaunt over to Hawaii and back), but no definite plans yet. I wonder if any readers have experience in a Dufour 36 offshore. The built quality should not be a problem and with the limit of positive stability at 129, she should be as, or more safe than many other production boats in her class. She is also quite fast. Of course for offshore work one needs modifications and the right inventory, which I''m progressively acquiring. I am interested however to hear if anyone has sailed this boat in really nasty weather (which I''ve so far managed to avoid like the plague...), and how the boat stood up to it.

Magnus


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Old prejudices die hard... Early cats did have a propensity for flipping and a lot of the bad press comes from racers who spend all thier time on the edge (and frequently over it). Todays catamarans are benefiting from advances in technology just like fiberglass mono''s did, remember the old wood hull die hards and osmosis. A shallow keel or centerboard/daggerboard cat will slide down the face of a wave that in all probability would roll a mono thru 360. With sail plans that are purposely under canvassed, a lower center of effort with a longer boom, shorter mast, and fuller bow sections that reduce the chance of burying the bows, a modern cat is very stable and safe. Lloyds of London publishes capsize rates for thier insured boats and there are significantly less amoung cats then monos. Granted there are less cats but proportionally the difference is still significant. It''s like all sailing, know your boat, watch the weather and currents, reef early and often, and don''t spill your gin & tonic...


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## dman (Dec 25, 2004)

Can someone explain this sliding sideways down a wave?(being good)What happens when you get to the bottom?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

As it gets to the bottom you have one hull high and one hull low. The wave is pushing against both. The lower hull gets buried from extra weight and forward wave motion. In big waves it can trip and flip. I don''t think any sane multihull sailor would turn a multihull sideways to seas big enough to flip it. 

My guess on why the % of cats flipping is less than monohulls is simple. Cat sailors don''t push as hard in bad weather as monohull salors do. Cats can flip and give no second chance while monohulls get knocked down, recover and keep going. 

Wanna get a crash course in multihull sailing and waves? Buy a Hobie cat and take it in the surf.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

To compare a modern multihull with a Hobie is like comparing a 45'' monohull with a dingy. As for taking a wave on the beam, in a confused sea rogue waves are "interesting" no matter what you''re sailing. With fuller bow sections the cat continues to move away from the wave''s force. A monohull with its keel cannot escape the turning action of the wave and can 360. Lets keep apples and apples when discussing the facts. How about a quick survey: how many readers have seen a dismasted mono? How many have seen the bottom of a cat? Its like the fear of flying, you have a much greater chance of injury driving to the airport.


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## dman (Dec 25, 2004)

quote :Lets keep apples and apples when discussing the facts. How about a quick survey: how many readers have seen a dismasted mono? How many have seen the bottom of a cat? end quote. This is apples to apples?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

kramer, you don''t know it yet but multihulls have the same traits. No matter what size, type, age, construction, captain or crew...power and sail. 

Last but not least...The USCG uses monohulls for rescues in severe life threatening weather and multihulls in less severe weather. They do monohulls for one reason...survivability. There is no contest (or apples) between the two on which type is more seaworthy.

I''m still ROTFLMAF about sliding sideways down the face of of rogue waves. It doesn''t happen.


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## Magic_Moments (May 15, 2003)

I know there are starting to be more Cats around in Washington and BC, but they are still pretty rare, probably for the reasons of moorage and price. I usually see several at each boat show in Seattle, but in my Sucia survey this past weekend I saw 1 Cat and several hundred sail and powerboats all Mono''s.

Ken


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## Looper (Aug 9, 2005)

This trimaran from Gemini/Telstar has amas that can be fully retracted while in the water (pull in, not fold down like the standard trailerable tri''s). Its not designed as a turtle rescue feature but it might help a lot.
http://www.geminicatamarans.com/Performance_Telstar.htm


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## Sunspot Baby (Nov 12, 2002)

I have actually made passages on both mono and multi hulls. I currently own a SA built Prout 38 (see her at www.stateham.com/sunspotbaby).

This particular boat crossed the Atlantic 3 times prior to my purchase in 2001.

I have less propensity to get sea sick on the cat and have had her in some pretty foul water in the Gulf Stream. Prouts don''t have the high bridge deck of some new cats and the banging can be severe. You don''t wallow, you jerk.

Loaded with 6 months of supplies, and a conservative rig, she is no faster than an equivalent mono and doesn''t go closer than about 55% off the wind. Of course there is some leeway from there. The Prout has keels on each hull similar to shoal keels on some shallow draft monohulls and the leeway is equivalent. If the leeway is a big factor, buy a multi with dagger boards. There are a couple of French boats that have them.

As a way of life, the multihull is more comfortable. I believe the chance of capsizing in bad weather is no greater than sinking a mono. I have found no reliable statistics one way or the other. There are a lot of vocal people on both sides with strong prejudices.

An interesting comparison occurred on a short cruise with our yacht club. Seven sail boats left the Beaufort, NC inlet and sailed the short distance to Cape Lookout. Current and wind made for some very bumpy conditions. Going out, we were all slamming into the seas, once we turned across the waves (5 to 7 feet) we, the only cat, had a nice exhilarating sail. The 6 monos were corkscrewing through the waves. That evening they all complained bitterly about the conditions. One woman, a serious sailor for 30 years who claimed to have never been sea sick, broke her streak.

In short, yes I find the cat more comfortable than a mono.


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## dman (Dec 25, 2004)

" I was in the Navy for 6 years and served aboard a destroyer in the north atlantic. That ship was 500 ft long and in a storm I was scared sh*ttless. We lost all our small craft off the davits, we lost all our radar and communications antanae and parts of the mast and super structure. The sea beat us to death for three and half days straight. The swells were in excess of 50 feet. The main deck spent most of the time under water, and the sea was breaking in the forward deck house." End quote Now that you experienced 5 to 7 foot seas you must feel like you are ready.Some people have no idea what is really out there.


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

dman - you are a first-class wanker.


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## dman (Dec 25, 2004)

"dman - you are a first-class wanker."end quote You should get your mommy to see if you should write like this on her computor SAILOR Sometimes these discussions ask for opinions about boats.When someone subscribes to a different opinion than does yours you get your panties in a knot.If you cannot handle a different opinion,you should probably skip these posts.BTW what is your opinion on this subject since you forgot to say anything that relates to it?


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

case closed


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

case closed


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Children settle down.. As we all know boats are built for different needs and different uses. I don''t think any Cats are built really for cold weather for example, more or less a function of demand. That is where most of these big waves are found normally. And most Cats today are designed for warm weather. So when deciding what is better for long term cruising one should probably consider first where they plan on cruising most of the time. And then find a boat that is designed for such areas - In most Cats your proabably going to feel a bit breezy and cold in the North Alantic. But on the positive side in my opinion since most of the time is spent anchored nothing can beat the comforts of a Cat - So my vote goes with the Cat - but then again I don''t like to go beyond the 36 degree mark especially in cold months.


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

the discussion is well and fine, but Dman makes himself the issue when he insists on lurking here just to pounce on and knock the piss out of anyone who asks a legitimate question. Everyone has a different level of expertise. Dman seems to think his is quite high - if that''s true, why can''t he post thoughtful and informative replies such as Jeff_H? Now, really, from having read all his posts, would any of us relish meeting this guy in person?


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## dman (Dec 25, 2004)

SAILOR Follow your own advice and close your case.Quote"Now, really, from having read all his posts, would any of us relish meeting this guy in person?" That`s why you have your face stuck to a computor?I can cut and paste with the best of them if that is what you call informative.If you really knew anything about what is informative follow all Billpjr`s ,Gord,Simaril`s posts and Jack`s as well.


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

... like i said.


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## captronb (Oct 9, 2000)

I have been sailing for over 40 years on many kinds of boats both mono and cat.(USCG Master for 20+ years) I have owned a Tartan 34, Stiletto 27, Edel 35, and my current boat is an Ericson 38. FWIW the Edel is a French built cruising cat. Mine was used in charter service in the Caribbean and had crossed the Atlantic on her own bottom.

My wife and I cruised our Edel 35 catamaran in the Bahamas for 3 months in 2002 in company with a Gemini 3400 catamaran. Both cats also did a week together in 2001 in the Berrys.

The Edel was generally an hour faster than the Gemini on any given passage of 6 or 7 hours (our typical daily jog) unless we were hard on the wind then the Edel was 2 hours faster. We often sailed on main alone to slow enough to stay in touch. Typical speeds were 6.5 to 9 knots... we route planned at 7.5k.

Downwind or broad reaching the cats motion is very gentle even in very large seas. No rolling. Upwind both cats pound (waves slap the bottom of the bridgedeck) severely. To the point of distraction... you''d think the boat was coming apart. (which it probably was over time)

Both cats are outboard powered (retract the motor for sailing) neither cat can manuever well in strong cross winds despite steerable motors. Both cats suffer from overloading.

Although my Edel was lightly equipped (every system was selected based on weight) the overloading comes mainly from water, fuel, and supplies (tools, spares, food, gear). 

We sold the boat after this trip.

My wife and I decided after this trip that the Edel was simply too small to carry the stuff we felt we needed without overloading.
It was limited to 60 gallons of water, 25 gallons of fuel, 2 cases of beer, small dinghy, 3hp dink motor),etc, etc.

IMHO the minimum size for a serious offshore capable cruising catamaran is about 43ft. Bigger is better. 

We replaced the cat with an Ericson 38 monohull which we cruised over this past winter in the Exumas and down to Provo. We left Florida after Thanksgiving and returned in April. 

3000lbs of gear, water, fuel etc lowered the Ericson''s waterline about an inch. 1500lbs of stuff would lower the Edel by 6 inches.

We carried 135 gallons of water, 75 gallons of fuel, 2-10lb propane tanks (the Edel carried 1 6lb) a real 10.5ft hard bottom/inflatable dinghy with 15hp motor. Three big anchors, chain, rodes, etc. (Edel carried one Bruce on short chain and rope and one Fortress also short chain and nylon rode) and more canned goods than we needed. 

The boat''s motion in a seaway is much slower and more rythmic than the Edel (which tends to choppy, quick and unpredictable). Boat speed is slower too. We now plan based on 5.5K. We draw 5 ft compared to the Edel''s 3ft. (on this trip it was not an issue). We feel much more secure on this boat and confident that we can handle offshore conditions given that we''re chicken sailors and watch the weather windows carefully. (true for either boat). The Ericson will power into pretty large head seas and wind. The Edel wouldn''t. 

The Ericson heels, the Edel didn''t. Not an issue for me but my wife would prefer not to heel.

I can carry the dinghy on stern davits without impacting trim. The Edel''s dink had to be stowed on the tramp. 

We anchored in anchorages with the Ericson that would have been very uncomfortable for the Edel (pounding). True the Edel could tuck in closer to shore but I don''t think that would matter much in the Exumas or say French Wells or Abrahams Bay, Mayaguana. If the anchorage was rough, it was rough everywhere.

People often ask why we went back to a mono after having cats. The answer is "cost". We couldn''t afford a catamaran big enough to do this kind of cruising. The Ericson is an affordable compromise. Given a winning lottery ticket I''d buy a large cat. Given building our kitty more or crusiing now, we chose cruising now.

FWIW the Gemini is a fine boat provided you watch the weather carefully and have options for ducking inside when it gets rough. The newer diesel powered ones probably motor ok.

I''d be happy to try to answer specific questions if you email me at [email protected]


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## Sunspot Baby (Nov 12, 2002)

By comparison on catamaran capacities:

My Prout 38 carries 110 gal of diesel and 175 gal water. She has twin diesels with Volvo Penta sail drives and is very maneuverable with both engines running. Our engines burn a total of about 1.5 gph going up or down the ICW at about 6 to 6.5 knots at 2200 rpm. We have a 4.2kw diesel powered generator but no air con. We have a small (1.5 gph) water maker that keeps us in water for drinking and cooking and use tank water for bathing and clean up.

We are not fast, as I said in an earlier post, about the same as an equivalent mono. One reason we bought the Prout was its sturdiness. Strength is stressed over speed.

We do live quite comfortably for months on end. During our last cruise we spent time with a lot of people on similar sized cats who were similarly comfortable. The smallest was a 35’ Wildcat which had been beautifully redone on the interior by the owners.

I guess it’s what makes you comfortable that drives what boat is right. Our base line was drawn around two desires. We want ice cubes in our drinks, and fresh water showers as needed. We found multiple monos and cats that could do that. We wanted the option of serious off shore passages that drove us away from some of the lighter, faster boats in both categories. That left us looking at used boats to get our desires within our price range.

I good friend and long time cruiser told me to “get over my prejudices about catamarans” and look at them objectively. I pass along that advice to all. Comparing a true cruising cat to a Hobie is like comparing an Island Packet to a Laser.

You can be happy on either, but as I have said, I find the cat more comfortable than the equivalent mono.

Sunspot Baby
www.stateham.com/sunspotbaby


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You sir, have a motorized condo.

Pick any length cat you want and they share commom traits only seen with multis. An 18'' Hobie and a 74'' cat share those traits. The only difference is wind and wave size. 

1)One hull stalls the other when coming about. Don''t put the helm hard over quickly to come about...steer them around and backwind if you need to. 

2)Running in following seas...one hull can bury while the other is lifted. Call it what you want, broaching, pitchpoling, whatever but the results are one hull trips the boat, sometimes beyond recovery. 


3)Sharp lively motion...each hull raises and lowers independently of the other when waves pass under them. A commonly heard complaint of multihull sailors about anchoring in surge conditions.

4)Heavy loading drastically downgrades speed and windward performance.

5)Waves slap underside of bridge deck.

6)Windvanes don''t react quick enough to keep up with apparent wind changes from a cats rapid accelleration(yes, I know Hobies don''t have them). 

There are more "traits" but I''m not going there. It''s not a bash on cats either...it''s just facts about them.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

...and here is an entire message reply pasted from a 43'' cat owner. I just came across it on another web site.

Posted: Sep 6, 2005 21:42:45
Quote 

We daysail once a week and overnight about one mounth a year. I have a 43'' cat that I sailed over from CA. to Hawaii and mostly love it but interisland upwind the motion gets to the wife and kids, not so bad in light trades but it''s mostly stong trades here. We love cruising in HI but with our seas I need to find somthing that will keep my crew happier. DJ


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

My credentials - I have owned a cruising cat for 18 years, and before that covered a fair number of miles in monos.

I have just read through all the messages on this forum and am amazed at the ****** that is being written as gospel thruth by some people that profess to know all about a cat because they once set foot onboard one in harbour.

Some truths about cats:
cruising cat sailing characteristics are nothing like an 18 ft hobie.
Weight is detrimental to performance.
bridgedeck clearance is essential in an offshore cat - a gemini will slam dreadfully.
Capsize on a cruising cat is sauch a remote possibility that it can be ignored, however running too fast down a big wave, digging the bow into the next wave and pitchpoling is a significant hazard for a racing cat, and not to be ignored by a cruising boat.
Some cats are designed to carry additional weight for cruising and some are not. - Good example being the Prout Snowgoose, and the Prout Snowgoose Elite - the later being a modified version of the first but designed for the weight of cruising.
A cat needs to be sailed further off the wind than a mono - depending on boat design and water conditions. Hull speed is essential to minimise leeway.
A decent modern designed Cat would surprise you in terms of performance. A good friend was watch leader on a Broadblue 42 and came on watch after a good sleep thinking that there was a little bit more splashing than when he went to bed, to discover that the boat was happily running close hauled at 20 kts in a 40kt apparent wind.
I would guess that everyone has heard of the tradegy that happened during one of the Fastnet races. What is not known so well is that there were a pair of Prout Snowgooses about 50 miles south of the race boats who were perfectly happy and wondered what all the fuss was about when they reached harbour. 
I initially bought my Cat cause my wife did not like being heeled over. I plan to travel transat and transpac and intend that this will be onboard a Prout (unless the lottery comes in - in which case it will be a broadblue 43


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You have 18 yrs multi owner experience and a fair amount of miles in monos. I have 40 yrs mono ownership and a fair amount of miles in multis...32''-74''. It has nothing to do with "dock walking" and everything to do with the common denominators of multihulls...sail, power, big, small.

You failed to mention having to "steer" a cat around to come about. Slam the wheel hard over as done in a monohull and one hull stalls the other...putting you in irons. I know, it''s just another minor detail that gets lost in the conversation.

If Hobies share no characteristics with large cats please explain your earlier statements of why these factors don''t apply...because everyone of them is identical to optimum performance on every cat...

"however running too fast down a big wave, digging the bow into the next wave and pitchpoling is a significant hazard for a racing cat, and not to be ignored by a cruising boat."

"Weight is detrimental to performance"

"A cat needs to be sailed further off the wind than a mono"

"Hull speed is essential to minimise leeway"


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Wow - What fun reading! A real kick. My $0.02 worth....
My last boat an Ericson 38'' - one of the best boats ever. Current boat a Fountaine Pajot 38''. Only owned a year, so I have taken a lot of interest in sailing Cats in bad weather.
Severe weather can be bad in either Mono or Multi. There are plenty of stories to support either belief. As Catamarans are becoming more popular we are beginning to see reports of successful crossings. Mine, for example, came across the pond in the ''99 ARC.
I admit I do not have enough experience to comment - but there are sure a lot of catamarans sailing the world.
Regards


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Take a look at the book, "Cruising in Catamarans" by Charles E. Kanter. Wonderfully informative. Spoke to Mr. Kanter and his wife at the Annapolis Boat Show this year. Since we do not know much about cats and are looking at several different ones on which to retire in the next few years, it seemed expedient to speak to someone with 32 years of experience. Mr. Kanter has helped us narrow our search, both by speaking to him in person and by reading his book. He addresses many of the myths perpetuated by those who may not know any different. Such as going to windward. Dennis Connor on his 60'' cat pointed up to 5 degrees better than a 120'' high tech racing boat during the 1990 America''s Cup Challenge. I understand that his cat was not a cruising cat, but it points out that all inclusive comments about a certain boat''s abilities are not always accurate.


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Amongst a lot of opinion on this lengthy thread, I find some very helpful summaries on comparing cats to monohulls for offshore cruising - and I notice they come from folks who have actual long-sitance cruising experience on both types of hulls.

By contrast and in response to the previous post, every time I''ve heard Mr. Kanter speak (numerous occasions plus articles he''s authored) I always come away with the sense he''s pitching a specific preference vs. offering an impartial analysis. Because of his experience - extensive in some respects but very limited in others - to me this means his remarks can be useful but only if viewed in context. You can learn a lot about Buicks from a Buick salesman, but he''s probably not the guy from whom you want to learn about BMW''s.

Note the topic of the thread: Extended passagemaking, cat vs. mono? Let''s just keep in mind that Mr. Kanter has never to my knowledge done extended passagemaking on a monohull, has limited his own personal cruising principally to the Bahamas and U.S. East Coast, and that occasional delivery trips on cats offer only a limited perspective on cruising a cat offshore while offering one no info about cruising a monohull.

No offense intended to Mr. Kanter; let''s just keep opinion and preference lined up under their respective headings, and experience under its own.

Jack


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## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

I''m really impressed with the longevity of this thread after my initial question. One thing is clear:  There is no clear answer (I guess the one thing isn''t clear...).

Seems that both options are good. different strokes for different folks...

Keep the debate coming

M Murphy


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Upon further thought, it seems to me that the answer is with the sailor. Competent seamanship will overshadow the boat. Therefore, I don''t believe it is an either/or discussion, but what are the attributes of each.
A lady that responded to my post on the SailNet email lists under catamarans, is an unequivical believer in catamarans, and particularly when in the open sea. 
Let''s further the discussion with info from sailors who have been there.


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

I am inclined to respectfully disagree here. From my recent experience in extreme conditions, I feel strongly that there is a point where the boat becomes the most important member of the crew.

As K. Adlard Coles'' says in Heavy Weather Sailing: "... in a survival gale of force 10 or over, perhaps gusting at hurricane strength, wind and sea become the masters."

Few will ever see those conditions, but if it happens, believe me you will be damn glad of having a safe, seaworthy boat. For me, I have the conviction of a religious convert that that means a full-keeled, narrow-beamed monohull.


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## sailortonyb1 (Dec 10, 2005)

A thought on safety....
First off, i have never sailed on a cat, but sure would love to try it. Anyway, i work offshore in the gulf of mexico on the rigs. I have seen how fast a tropical low can turn to a tropical depression and then to a tropical storm and all of this happening directly overhead with no prior warning. So if this were to happen to someone say 300 N miles from land and one wanted to escape to safety.....in a mono hull @ approx 6.5 K, thats about 46 hours or approx 2 days. In a Cat at say 20 K, that would equate to about 15 hours. So, am i correct in assuming the cat is the safer vessel in that it is exposed to the elements for a much lesser period of time? Please explain to me where my theory is going wrong, as i said, i have never ben on a multi brefore.


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

To be sure, that is one school of thought, and one that - not surprisingly - many cat owners subscribe to. However, the situation that I alluded to above was one in which the system was unavoidable and there was no place to put in quickly. A catamaran''s speed would not have made a difference. I would never again want to count on onrunning/outguessing a major storm system''s track.


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## dman (Dec 25, 2004)

All very good points sneuman.Just came back on a 50 foot fishing boat,25+ foot seas,chopping ice off with an axe,blinding snowstorm,at times 50knots of wind,for 10 days.Just for the halibut.Leaving for St.Lucia to spend the winter....seeya all.


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