# Mal de mer



## Lpdiver (Jan 30, 2019)

Okay,

Time to address the elephant in the room when it comes to my planning a live aboard life. My wife suffers from terrible sea sickness; according to her, pretty mild from my view.

What I am interested in knowing is long term do most folks eventually adapt or do many remain sick after weeks at sea?

I am familiar with most of the treatments, I am just wondering how likely is it that a person can never acclimate to the motion of the ocean.

My wife can fly and only is rarely affected in the car; usually, when trying to read or do something on her phone.

I would love to hear personal experiences from fellow forum members.

Thanks,

LPd


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

In over 5 decades at sea, I have only known 3 people who remained seasick for more than 3 days at sea. One was a crew member who I allowed (at the suggestion of the others on board) to remain in her bunk for the duration of the voyage. I have little doubt this would not have been the case had she actually taken the helm and realized that we, not the ocean, was in control of the vessel.
The other person I sailed many thousands of miles with and he refused to allow his seasickness (pretty bad) to interfere with his love of sailing. He ate and drank normally and when necessary, he'd go to the rail and do that thing, never making an issue of it or a comment.
The only other person ever met who never got over his seasickness underway I did not sail with but met in a port in the SoPac. He also refused to allow the sickness to affect his enjoyment, but he sustained himself on bananas, saying that they tasted the same coming up as they did going down.
From my observations of hundreds of seasick people, the vast majority of them do not get sick until the land falls below the horizon, so I have concluded that it is more about an unfamiliar and uncomfortable environment than actual motion sickness. Other than those mentioned above *EVERY SINGLE* seasick person I have had aboard on a crossing has almost gotten over the malady after being on the helm for an extended period (4 on 8 off (physically steering) were the standard watches for a crew of 3) and understood the the vessel was *not* at the mercy of the sea, but completely under their control as helmsperson.
Others may disagree, but these are my personal observations.


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## Lpdiver (Jan 30, 2019)

Capta,

Thanks for the feed back. That kind of agrees with my perception. While not having sailed much I have done plenty of time on diving vessels. My personal observation is that too many people fight it for too long and fee much better after purging.

To that end we sometimes would use chunky soup at "fake" vomit, those fighting would be on the rail and they would typically be joined by all the others struggling and all felt at least marginally better after.

I know...we were so wrong as dive masters...

LPd


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Lpdiver said:


> Time to address the elephant in the room when it comes to my planning a live aboard life. My wife suffers from terrible sea sickness; according to her, pretty mild from my view.
> 
> What I am interested in knowing is long term do most folks eventually adapt or do many remain sick after weeks at sea?
> 
> ...


You are describing my spouse pretty much to a tee. She has always suffered from various forms of motion sickness, including on the sea. I think her symptoms are not extreme compared to others, but she does feel it, and continues to feel it.

Over the years we've been seasonally cruising she has definitely improved. It usually requires a period re-learning each season, but my estimation is that there's been a general improving trajectory. And the longer we are on the boat, the better she appears to get.

We do have our strategies for dealing with her _Mal de mer_. Anytime there is a twinge of its onset, she is on the helm, or in her bunk. I take over most down-below duties, regardless of who's turn it is to make dinner or monitor the nav station (we normally rotate all duties while on the boat).

She has found that Bonamine is the most effective drug. Apparently less side effects than others she's tried. But she mostly avoids all drugs.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Get her drunk.

Serious. 


Both affect the middle ear.


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## Lpdiver (Jan 30, 2019)

Mark,

I'm gonna need some details. Before boarding, after boarding, pre seasick, post seasick. It won't be easy, while she isn't a tee totaler she seldom finishes a full drink. I usually finish hers and she typically drinks about half a drink. Only seen her drunk once, but, hey I'll give it a try.

LPd


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

Great advice; rough weather and things going sideways but your drunken crew to the rescue.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Lpdiver said:


> Mark,
> 
> I'm gonna need some details. Before boarding, after boarding, pre seasick, post seasick. It won't be easy, while she isn't a tee totaler she seldom finishes a full drink. I usually finish hers and she typically drinks about half a drink. Only seen her drunk once, but, hey I'll give it a try.
> 
> LPd


As you go to sea. Her not you! Lol
But if she never drinks much the correlation in her mind of being drunk to being seasick might not work. 
The idea is the ears disturbance is recognised in the brain as being tipsy which it has experience to handle.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Get her drunk.
> 
> Serious.
> 
> Both affect the middle ear.


My first wife never had the slightest problem with seasickness, and we sailed a lot offshore from Frisco in all kinds of weather (even in near gale force winds), until the party before we left on our circumnavigation. She got totally wasted and thereafter always had some seasickness problems for the first couple of days after a period without sailing, even day sails.
Again, this could be because we were finally heading out onto the ocean, far from land, but neither of us felt that was true. We both believed that the champers had something to do with it somehow.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I’ve always read that sea sickness and booze don’t mix. One of the ways to avoid mal de mer is to abstain from booze, especially the 24 hrs prior to leaving. At least this is what the Internet wisdom reveals.

I’ve no way to test it b/c I don’t suffer from the malady, nor do I suffer from abstaining (from booze) .


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

On a long trip, I have to be careful for the first 4 days (or so).
During that initial 4 days, I must not read when below and when taking a fix at the chart table, I must be rather quick or I will get queasy.
After about 4 days I am OK, and later on, even upside down in the steering compartment does not bother me.

I have noticed that after a long period at sea ( longest ever was 27 days), when we set foot ashore, there is a big counter signal arriving from the old cerebellum (making walking on dry land rather wobbly) and it is that methinks, that has been most effective in ending sea-sickness.

Opinions vary, but when the old cerebellum sees a contradiction between inner ear signal and visual signal, it triggers a nausea reflex to warn you. For some, it can be overwhelming.

For me, as often as I can I close my eyes when below, it seems to help.

I have been fortunate to have sailed with a guy who was absolutely immune to it. He is blessed. It never bothers him.


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

MikeOReilly said:


> She has found that Bonamine is the most effective drug. Apparently less side effects than others she's tried. But she mostly avoids all drugs.


Where do you get it? I have a friend who gets pretty seasick but the medicinal cures havent worked so far and Canada seems to have banned every suggested mediation out there...


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MacBlaze said:


> Where do you get it? I have a friend who gets pretty seasick but the medicinal cures havent worked so far and Canada seems to have banned every suggested mediation out there...


Good question &#8230; I'll ask.

She just told me she's been working off an old supply. Just as you said, it's no longer for sale in Canada. Not sure why. Apparently it is still for sale in other countries (under different names).


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> Good question &#8230; I'll ask.
> 
> She just told me she's been working off an old supply. Just as you said, it's no longer for sale in Canada. Not sure why. Apparently it is still for sale in other countries (under different names).


Well, remember that court case last month re the sailor who allegedly hallucinated on one seasickness drug.

So be careful which one, other meds, alcohol etc


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Well, remember that court case last month re the sailor who allegedly hallucinated on one seasickness drug.
> 
> So be careful which one, other meds, alcohol etc


So true Mark, especially if you're a single-hander. Without another human on board to counter any false thinking, it must be doubly dangerous.

I'm luck in that I'm not easily sucesseptical to motion sickness. I have felt it though. I don't think anyone is 100% impervious, but some of us are less prone to it than others.

With regard to that sad story, I stopped following the news a while ago. Is this what they figured happened; hallucination induced by some sort of drugs? I recall speculation about exhaustion as well. How sad&#8230;


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> With regard to that sad story, I stopped following the news a while ago. Is this what they figured happened; hallucination induced by some sort of drugs? I recall speculation about exhaustion as well. How sad&#8230;


It was never resolved. 
The court case was stopped on a 'technicality' and the skipper exonerated.

A judgement on the whole trial would have been great on so many points.


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## scubadoo (Apr 5, 2014)

Lpdiver said:


> Capta,
> 
> Thanks for the feed back. That kind of agrees with my perception. While not having sailed much I have done plenty of time on diving vessels. My personal observation is that too many people fight it for too long and fee much better after purging.
> 
> ...


3'-5' seas are much different on a dive boat than on a sailboat over 30'. I'm "purging" my brains out on a dive boat if I'm not on Bonine or Dramamine. Never had a problem when sailing in any type of weather....totally different motion to me. Being at the helm definitely seems to help my crew if they are having any symptoms.


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## Lpdiver (Jan 30, 2019)

Rockter,

I have had only a few motion induced episodes myself and the second worse was on dry land after a month long stint in the Gulf on Mexico. We were working on an oil rig and most of the work was near the surface so we had to anchor and stand by when ever the waves exceded six foot, about 90% of the time. Upon returning and in my recliner on evening my world started spinning. It took about ten minutes to get my word right.

The worst was once in four foot of water one ear would not clear and I got alternobaric vertigo, cleared ears finally and went away immediately.

The other time was in the Gulf below decks in my cabin working on underwater camera and the sloshing of the diesel in the tanks and motion got to me.

Never anything major.

LPd


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

My Wife would get seasick looking at a water color painting. She says she was invariably motion sick , vomit, in cars as a child. As an adult she could drive but when riding it was a bad experience. Twisty roads would really get her. 

Fast forward decades of me dragging her around and she still has issues but we are now live aboards hanging in the hook in rolly Carribean anchorages. She HATES overnights, says she needs time to reset herself. But she’s probably got well over 10,000 miles now. 

She has tried everything (except helming, but that is now changing) and now has a “stew” that works pretty well. Itnturns our a lot of this stuff is also used to treat Nash’s from chemo and other medical issues. 

1-She wears a “Relief Band”. It’s an electronic wrist stimulation that can be adjusted as needed. They cost about $110. Non-prescription.

2-Before a passage she uses a Scopolomine Patch (available in Canada and USA with prescription). It’s not for all, read side effects. One patch lasts 3 days. Scope will work even if not used until seasickness has set in. 

3-Sturgeron, availability varies by country, she buys it in the Carribean. For her this works well if she is pressed by conditions. BE CAREFUL. It comes in 15mg and 75mg doses. Use the 15. At first she just asked for Stugeron and they sold her 75’s, over dosing can bring on Parkinson’s like symptoms which can take up to a year to subside. It affected her balance and walking, but she has recovered. Now she is careful to use the 15’s sparingly, which appears to be OK. 

Bonine does some good when things are not too bouncy. 

A lot of OTC seasick meds are just antihistamines with some speed to keep you from falling asleep.

Aclimitization is a big thing. Just being “on the hook” goes a long way to help her. If we are on a dock she will loose it. She also gets “land sick” but that seems to be lessening. At least she is griping less.


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## Lpdiver (Jan 30, 2019)

Wow,

Thanks everyone for all of you sincere replies. I fully expected a few snarky comments along the lines of what the hell are you thinking, 
living on a boat with someone prone to motion illness.

In the upcoming months we will experiment with the different treatments to make sure she can tolerate them and what side effects may pop up. In her case anxiety certainly play a role as well as what ever triggers migraine headaches. She used to suffer with migraines that occurred with the precision of an atomic clock that were directly tied to her period; but, that ship has already left port so to speak.

Not much pushes her anxiety button; but, when it does... We went to a water park that had a slide where you climb 100 feet up and stand on a trap door that drops you into a near vertical slide. She accompanied my daughter and I to the top and was a bit hesitant. In the end she was too embarrassed and lazy to walk down the stairs. Apparently she passed out on the way down and was awakened by the water at the bottom. She was very disoriented and developed a killer migraine. The other event she was flying to her mother's funeral and apparently passed out and pee herself. Note to self to monitor her level of anxiety and defuse any insipient issues.

Scopolamine works well for her. Did you guys know that scopolamine is called Devils Breath (burundanga) in Colombia and is apparently used to drug and rob folks? So yes the side effects are there in high doses.

Again, thanks for all of the sincere replies. I feel less apprehensive and more confident that we can manage this issue.

LPd


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Lpdiver said:


> ...My wife suffers from terrible sea sickness; according to her, pretty mild from my view.....


Not going to be snarky, but just suggesting you treat this like it is terrible, not mild. Seems you are, as you're looking for solutions. Does she want solutions, or would she prefer not to do this? No drug will fully make this a non-issue. Most won't work, after symptoms begin and it can't be healthy to take them every day.

The scopolamine patch is generally considered the most effective, but does have side effects. If your wife tolerates it well, as the last post implies, why not stick with it? In high doses, it is used by criminals because the victim does not present any inebriation, but is also unaware of what they are doing and fully compliant. Executives in Columbia were seen on security video withdrawing money from ATMs or giving bank instructions the criminal instructed them to. They woke up (if they didn' overdose) with no recollection.

In small doses, short term memory loss is a common side effect. I cruised with a friend that asked me the same question 4 times in a row. It was bizarre. He had no recollection of the question just seconds earlier. Never, ever apply a second patch, if the first isn't working. Unless hallucinating, however, you may not be able to tell that your wife is having side effects and she many not remember. Very weird drug.

Another drug is sturgeron (spelling?). Not available in the US, but I understand it is in Canada. However, it is believed it could contribute to developing Parkinson's in one's elder years. Even if that one in a thousand, those odds are too high for me.

Living on seasickness drugs is not a great solution. Hopefully, her anxiety will subside and this will cure itself. It will only happen if she wants it to.


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## Lpdiver (Jan 30, 2019)

Minnewaska,

You are absolutely right. I am treating it with high priorities as this issue is the most likely to derail my plans. I don't want to drop a bundle of cash and then have to cash out due to her not enjoying life on board. The real litmus test is a few long vacations on boats before purchase. 

Thanks for you response.


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

Minnewaska said:


> Another drug is sturgeron (spelling?). Not available in the US, but I understand it is in Canada.


Nope. Anyone I know who has it got it in Mexico. AFAIK gravol is the only seasickness medication available in Canada. It's actually pretty annoying.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MacBlaze said:


> Nope. Anyone I know who has it got it in Mexico. AFAIK gravol is the only seasickness medication available in Canada. It's actually pretty annoying.


Are you sure? I thought I recalled some folks I knew used to cross the Great Lakes to get some, so I just tried to look it up online. Seems the Canadian online pharmacies offer it. At least Canada is in the name, so I assume they're in Canada.

https://www.canadapharmacy.com/products/stugeron

Some swear by it, but I suspect it's about the same as any psychosomatic benefit. If you believe something will work for seasickness, I'm sure it will. I also noticed that the Parkinson related symptom was determined to go away, when the drug was discontinued. At last most of the time. Still may not be good enough for me.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9613736

Finally, I also noticed that Bonine is not sold in Canada, but commonly available in the US. However, I couldn't find why.


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

Minnewaska said:


> Are you sure? I thought I recalled some folks I knew used to cross the Great Lakes to get some, so I just tried to look it up online. Seems the Canadian online pharmacies offer it. At least Canada is in the name, so I assume they're in Canada.
> 
> https://www.canadapharmacy.com/products/stugeron
> 
> ...


Pretty darn sure. eery reference I find for it says its not available in Canada (except for the online pharmacies which I suspect aren't Canadian). And Like I said, everyone I know who uses it got their stash in Mexico.

Wikipedia: "It is not available in the United States or Canada. It has also been cited as one of the most used drugs for seasickness within the British Royal Navy."


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Yeah, the drug restrictions are just bonkers. Yesterday, Antigua. the Wife went into a local drug store and got Sturgerone Forte (70mg - 15mg recommended dose) OTC. No problem. 

I’ve lost track of what drugs you are discussing but Scopalomine is deffinetly available in the USA and anada with a prescription.


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## tellemark32 (Aug 25, 2015)

I believe seasickness on a boat underway can be a huge safety factor. It can lead to severe dehydration. It also can create a burden on the crew if the person is not able to perform sailing or watchstanding tasks. I do caution that seasick meds can interfere with balance, performance and certain medical conditions. For instance, men with an enlarged prostate should be extra careful about taking some seasick meds. Talk with your doctor first. Here's a good article from cruising expert John Neal: http://www.mahina.com/covers/YMseasickness.pdf Note the emphasis on hydration and starting meds well before you cast off.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I’ve posted this elsewhere but here it is again in abbreviated form.
Motion sickness is much more complex than just eyes and ears. There’s a hereditary component. For instance those who are current or past migraine sufferers are much more prone to be seasick. Multiple neurotransmitters are involved including dopamine, norepinephrine, gaba, acetylcholine and importantly histamine. 
Most anti motion sickness meds have an antihistaminic (hence risk of sleepiness) component but some also effect dopamine systems (hence risk of Parkinsonism and their being illegal in some countries e.g. sturgeon). 
All sensory systems contribute to your awareness of the relationship of your head to gravity and the position of your head,core and limbs. So all are involved in motion sickness. Motion( particularly angular acceration) are measured by your semi circular canals and gravity effect on your head by the utricle and saccule but vision, prioception kinethetic skin imput, Golgi body input and others also contribute. To think of seasickness as just a mismatch between eyes and ears is a gross simplification.
Even your olfactory bodies contribute. You know people who are fine until they smell diesel or go into the head.
There’s a large neurological literature about motion sickness. A quick read is to look at the stuff from NASA and the armed services in recent years. 
On the pharmaceutical front as usual look at double blinded trials only. Yes, ginger helps some. Yes, plugging one ear helped in a controlled trial.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Thanks for the scientific overview OB. Much appreciate it. 

My partner’s (and hence my) practice is to get her on the helm as soon as she feels any hint of a bout coming on. Part of what she says this alleviates is a sense, or lack, of control. It’s more than simple anticipation of inertial changes … it’s fascinating. 

Clearly being out in the open air, with a clear horizon visible, makes a big difference for her. Travelling through fog is hard, although night sailing doesn’t appear to be an issue. Weird. Smells like diesel do make it harder for her. Ginger seems to help. Those wrist bands didn’t.

Does the research you’ve looked at tackle the question of what makes some of us more susceptible, and others less? Are there any gender differences? Women tend to have better senses of smell.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Lpd-
It should be mentioned that "get her drunk" contradicts almost all the advice on seasickness. Alcohol, even the night before, is universally said to CAUSE seasickness. As is greasy food, tobacco smoke, diesel fumes, lack of sleep, and a few other things commonly agreed on. 

Canada pushes Sturgeron (over the counter) which is illegal in the US. Oral Scopalomine is off the US market entirely, but is sold OTC in the UK and former colonies under the brand name "Kwells" and others. About $5 for 10 ten pills, way cheaper than the 3-day Scop patch we can get in the US. And Scop is very serious medicine, perhaps the most effective and the one with the longest list of serious side effects. Try it AT HOME when there's someone else around "just in case" if she tries it.

There's also the "NASA cocktail", maybe ephedrine and something else I don't recall, available by rx only and the researched choice of NASA, who have spent a lot of time and money looking into motion sickness.

Then there's the electric Relief Band. It applies electric pulses on the nekwan acupressure point over the wrist tendons. Not new age nonsense, not a simple pressure button, but confirmed and approved by the FDA because it does reduce morning sickness during pregnancy. There's something objectively proven that works there. Disposable sealed version, second generation uses coin batteries, new ones are USB rechargeable, all sold along with clones online. I'd go for the USB model these days. I can tell you it is almost as effective as Scop--but you MUST position it very precisely, you can't just slap it on the wrist and expect it to work. And like any meds, start it up on shore before you leave. At the low setting, it is easy to forget. On the high setting...the tingling is distracting and unpleasant, but WAY better than seasickness. I just set it on high, and that way I also know it is still in the correct position and working.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

This is the best seasickness thread I’ve read. Lots of good concise info here.


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