# Cruising Permit



## Shamwari2 (May 23, 2007)

I'm a Canadian planning on buying a boat in San Francisco and sailing it to Mexico. I will register it in Canada but I need a cruising permit and they want you to enter the country from a foreign country before applying for one.
Anyone have any ideas on how to do this without sailing to Canada and back.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I assume you mean a US cruising permit? We bought our boat in Rhode Island and were living aboard in NYC while the boat went through the process of being delisted by the US Coast Guard and then being registered in Canada. I went to the local office (the container port in Newark as it turned out) and explained the situation. They wondered if I had just arrived in town (it was January) but issued the permit without a problem.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

I don't know what you plan to do after you sail to Mexico but if you plan to return to the US and never intend to bring it to Canada keep the US state registration. If you do not plan to return with it to the US delay the Canadian registration until you're in Mexico. 

The US cruising permit is a real hassle and will cause you no end of grief, especially if you plan to return to the USA. My advice is for you to avoid having to get one if at all possible.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

ebs001 said:


> I don't know what you plan to do after you sail to Mexico but if you plan to return to the US and never intend to bring it to Canada keep the US state registration. If you do not plan to return with it to the US delay the Canadian registration until you're in Mexico.
> 
> The US cruising permit is a real hassle and will cause you no end of grief, especially if you plan to return to the USA. My advice is for you to avoid having to get one if at all possible.


I don't think you can enter Mexico on a state registration.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

ebs001 said:


> The US cruising permit is a real hassle and will cause you no end of grief, especially if you plan to return to the USA. My advice is for you to avoid having to get one if at all possible.


What kind of grief are you talking about ? I have about 30 US cruising permits under my belt and have never had a single problem.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

ebs-
"keep the US state registration."
Aside from that being fraudulent and illegal if he's really not a resident (Canadia isn't part of SF, eh?) Cali will hit him up for sales tax and try to own him and the boat. Or haven't you seen the many complaints about Cali wanting blood out of rocks?


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> ebs-
> "keep the US state registration."
> Aside from that being fraudulent and illegal if he's really not a resident (Canadia isn't part of SF, eh?) Cali will hit him up for sales tax and try to own him and the boat. Or haven't you seen the many complaints about Cali wanting blood out of rocks?


It is not illegal. He will not be able to document the vessel but he can maintain his state registration. If he registers the boat in California they will require him to pay state tax that part is true but no more than a California resident.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

boatpoker said:


> What kind of grief are you talking about ? I have about 30 US cruising permits under my belt and have never had a single problem.


You must return your boat to Canada if not you have been illegally getting a renewal permit.

While travelling you must report in to the Coast Guard. This requirement varies by location but in Florida you have to report every day you move. You have to be out of the USA for 14 days after your cruising permit expires to be eligible to get a new permit which means your return date has to be 2 weeks later each year. If you decide to be away from your boat for more than a year while it's stored in the USA you cannot get a renewal permit until you take the boat out of the US. In the meantime you will be travelling illegally.

Failure to have a permit $10,000

Failure to report $5,000


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Geoff54 said:


> I don't think you can enter Mexico on a state registration.


That may be true it may not but I think you're wrong. The best way is to check with Mexican authorities.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

who says you cant enter mexico with state registration?

most enter this way...

its a very small percentage that have documented vessels


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Shamwari2 said:


> I'm a Canadian planning on buying a boat in San Francisco and sailing it to Mexico. I will register it in Canada but I need a cruising permit and they want you to enter the country from a foreign country before applying for one.
> Anyone have any ideas on how to do this without sailing to Canada and back.


what country are you refferig to?


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

Looking at Killarney's post, I'm wondering...

Is it possible to register the boat in Canada without it being IN Canada?

What I'm thinking is, Delist from the US Coast Guard if it's documented, register in Canada, then adjust the hailing port as appropriate, then go get the US Cruising permit. If they ask if you just got into the country, just say yes.

Killarney, Is this pretty much how you did it? Sounds like it could work. I don't know, I'm just guessing.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

You should not have trouble getting a cruising permit and if you intend to leave the US within one year there should not be an issue. Don't know about Mexico but there are countries that will not accept US state or Canadian provincial registration for entry.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yeah but not mexico unless this has changed in the last 5 years or so...


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Another problem one can run into if you register the boat in Canada and the boat was not made in North America, you will have to pay duty. If you import the boat into Canada you will have to pay duty and then when you take it back to the USA to sell you will pay duty again.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

... so why do you register a boat in Canada, if you live in the U.S.

What is the benefits?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

titustiger27 said:


> ... so why do you register a boat in Canada, if you live in the U.S.
> 
> What is the benefits?


Only a Canadian citizen or Canadian Corporation can register a boat is Canada
Only a US citizen or US corporation can document a boat in the US

US documentation = Canadian registration

No duties or taxes are due in Canada until the boat hits Canadian waters and yes the boat can be Canadian Registered without ever being in Canada.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

ebs001 said:


> You must return your boat to Canada if not you have been illegally getting a renewal permit.
> 
> While travelling you must report in to the Coast Guard. This requirement varies by location but in Florida you have to report every day you move. You have to be out of the USA for 14 days after your cruising permit expires to be eligible to get a new permit which means your return date has to be 2 weeks later each year. If you decide to be away from your boat for more than a year while it's stored in the USA you cannot get a renewal permit until you take the boat out of the US. In the meantime you will be travelling illegally.


1. Federal law does not vary by location. This is a bit of a grey area as all my cruising permits say I must check in with each regional office as I pass through that region. however, one paragraph later it says once I have checked in, I no longer need to report. The first few times (many years ago) that I did check in to regional USCG offices they were puzzled as to why I was bothering them. So for the last 30 years I checked in once when I entered the country choosing to believe the second paragraph on my cruising permit rather than the first.

2. True, it is a great inconvenience to hop across to the Bahamas for a couple of weeks each year . You can get exemptions to the one year rule if your boat is undergoing repairs.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We have two Canadians in our marina, that I know of, that keep there boat here, in part, to avoid taxes in Canada. They register their boats in RI. Of course, they don't go to Mexico, but these boats have been here for years. Not sure how they get away with the cruising permit thing. I will ask them, if I think of it.

One of the boats seems to be owned by several families that each use it for a couple of weeks over the summer. Sort of a floating water front vacation home in the States. It's probably a cost effective idea, however, their boat is far from Bristol condition. They treat it more like disposable. I hear its rather moldy and gross down below, although, it just looks unwaxed or properly maintained above. I will not be surprised, if they haven't even considered the legality. By the way, they haven't even launched yet this year.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> We have two Canadians in our marina, that I know of, that keep there boat here, in part, to avoid taxes in Canada. They register their boats in RI. Of course, they don't go to Mexico, but these boats have been here for years. Not sure how they get away with the cruising permit thing. I will ask them, if I think of it.
> 
> One of the boats seems to be owned by several families that each use it for a couple of weeks over the summer. Sort of a floating water front vacation home in the States. It's probably a cost effective idea, however, their boat is far from Bristol condition. They treat it more like disposable. I hear its rather moldy and gross down below, although, it just looks unwaxed or properly maintained above. I will not be surprised, if they haven't even considered the legality. By the way, they haven't even launched yet this year.


There is no law against a foreigner owning a State Registered vessel and as long as the registration is current it can stay in US waters for ever. Take a look around Lake Champlain ..... hundreds of State Registered boats owned by Montrealers


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> Looking at Killarney's post, I'm wondering...
> 
> Is it possible to register the boat in Canada without it being IN Canada?
> 
> ...


That is pretty much what we did. It went from being an American boat to a Canadian boat while sitting in New York harbour.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> That is pretty much what we did. It went from being an American boat to a Canadian boat while sitting in New York harbour.


This happens all the time. I am a Transport Canada Appointed Tonnage Measurer and routinely do measurements for registration on boats that never see Canada.

What size boat are we talking about ? If it's under 15m LOA you can do the registration and tonnage measurement yourself. Any longer and you'll have to hire an Appointed Tonnage Measurer.

PM me and I'll be glad to answer any specific questions.


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

boatpoker said:


> What size boat are we talking about ? If it's under 15m LOA you can do the registration and tonnage measurement yourself. Any longer and you'll have to hire an Appointed Tonnage Measurer.
> 
> PM me and I'll be glad to answer any specific questions.


I think it's 12m not 15m.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

ebs-
If neither the boat nor the owner was a resident of a state, and neither the boat nor the owner regularly was present and operating in that state? In most if not all states it would be illegal to register the boat there. Vehicle registration is typically only legal when there is a nexus for that same state. You can't just randomly send money to any state you please, and register vehicles there. Insurers, if they are involved, tend to get upset about that as well.
From the few facts we have here? An alien, non-resident, intending never to keep the boat in a state after the initial purchase was made there? About as legal as the proverbial three-dollar-bill.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Vasco said:


> I think it's 12m not 15m.


Up to 12m, you can use the "assigned formal TM".
Up to 15m you can use the "simplified method of TM".

Neither of the above require the services of an Appointed Tonnage Measurer.

Over 15m and all multi-hulls regardless of size happily require my services


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> ebs-
> If neither the boat nor the owner was a resident of a state, and neither the boat nor the owner regularly was present and operating in that state? In most if not all states it would be illegal to register the boat there. Vehicle registration is typically only legal when there is a nexus for that same state. You can't just randomly send money to any state you please, and register vehicles there. Insurers, if they are involved, tend to get upset about that as well.
> From the few facts we have here? An alien, non-resident, intending never to keep the boat in a state after the initial purchase was made there? About as legal as the proverbial three-dollar-bill.


See response #20. There are many boats along the Canadian/US border owned by Canadians but registered in the US. Your statement is incorrect.

BTW I have a three dollar bill that is perfectly valid legal tender.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> ..... If neither the boat nor the owner was a resident of a state, and neither the boat nor the owner regularly was present and operating in that state? In most if not all states it would be illegal to register the boat there.......


I'm all but certain this is incorrect. You can definitely register a boat in a state you do not live within, I've done it. I'm not aware of any effort the registered state makes to care where the boat actually is. Just the opposite, they make an effort to be sure boats that are within their boarder pay their fees.

The illegal part comes when you use a state registration to hide the fact that you are really in another. However, the problem is with the State you are actually in, not where you are registered.

Automobile registration may be different.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> ebs-
> If neither the boat nor the owner was a resident of a state, and neither the boat nor the owner regularly was present and operating in that state? In most if not all states it would be illegal to register the boat there. Vehicle registration is typically only legal when there is a nexus for that same state. You can't just randomly send money to any state you please, and register vehicles there. Insurers, if they are involved, tend to get upset about that as well.
> From the few facts we have here? An alien, non-resident, intending never to keep the boat in a state after the initial purchase was made there? About as legal as the proverbial three-dollar-bill.


HelloSailor : Please direct us to any state legislation on line that would show this practice to be illegal.


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## bvander66 (Sep 30, 2007)

Most states don't care where the owner lives, they are more concerned where the boat stays/is used. Eg, many people in Pa and Md keep their boats in De (sales tax) even though they don't live there. 
There are many boats owned by foreigners in the US, but kept in US with current state registration. This is legal, as long as the owners when aboard, do not overstay their visa limit (which for Cdns is 6 months). 
If the boat has current US registration it does not require a cruising permit. The Cruising permit is a customs (vice immigration) form which means the foreign flagged vessel will not be sold in US and can stay up to one year. 
When a cruising permit is acquired at the Port of Entry, you can request up to a year or any period less allowing you to have one valid for only 9 months for example. Many cruisers do this that leave their boats on hard in Fl but cruise the Bahamas. You can also cancel a cruising permit just before you leave US waters, but that entails visiting a CBP port office and filling out paperwork. What is confusing is that the cruising permit applies to the vessel, not the occupants.
Ref reporting, a vessel moving within US waters under a cruising permit is required to report each time location changes. In the Fl district this means every movement. In other districts they will say thanks, no need to report until you move to the next district. Maryland is like that. Highly recommend you log each call to CBP and get a Delta number as a reference to prove you have reported in.
Ref taxes. If you buy the boat in US, and keep the state registration, they you will have to pay the going sales tax for that state. If you are going to drop state registration and flag the boat as Cdn then in some states you will have X number of days to get the boat out of the state, send proof it has left and not come back until new registration is complete. You need to research the rules for the state you are buying the boat in as they are not standard. The good news is if you have a valid cruising permit on a foreign flagged vessel then the state can not seek you out for taxes/registration if your stay is longer than 60 days.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Nice recap from bvander66. I will only add that taxes are not simply due in the state where you register or purchase your boat, but also where it is used for more than a specified period of time. You can register it anywhere you like and that will undoubtedly spark their local sales/use tax bill, since they would assume you were there. I still believe you can have a State's registration, even if you're not there, but it is admittedly unusual. Their tax collectors will need some proof. 

However, even if you pay somewhere and move the boat to be used elsewhere, you will trip most State's Use tax requirements after a number of days. Regardless of where you're registered. Most states will offset their taxes by any amount you already paid to another, but not all. Check each and be very careful, if you're staying anywhere else for a length of time.

Here is the scam that tax collectors are on the look out for. They LOVE to catch and penalize rich boat owners trying to pull this scam. In order to try to avoid the sales/use tax in either the owner's home state, or state within which the boat is actually used, they register it in a state with low or no sales/use tax at all. RI, for example, does not tax boat purchases. The owner then hopes to appear like a short term transient from another State and not pay the tax they owe. Some states require marinas to report their tenants, just to crosscheck this. Others are reported to walk docks and take inventory themselves.

John Kerry got caught doing this. He registered his boat in RI, but actually used it extensively in his home state of Mass, which has a 5% use tax, I believe. It splashed all over the papers a few years back, but went away quickly. No doubt he paid up quickly.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jaja I was about to say kerry got hit with this big time when he was out windsurfing or something and someone decided to call him out back during his campaign, jejeje


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## tdoster (Feb 21, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> We have two Canadians in our marina, that I know of, that keep there boat here, in part, to avoid taxes in Canada. They register their boats in RI. Of course, they don't go to Mexico, but these boats have been here for years. Not sure how they get away with the cruising permit thing. I will ask them, if I think of it.
> 
> One of the boats seems to be owned by several families that each use it for a couple of weeks over the summer. Sort of a floating water front vacation home in the States. It's probably a cost effective idea, however, their boat is far from Bristol condition. They treat it more like disposable. I hear its rather moldy and gross down below, although, it just looks unwaxed or properly maintained above. I will not be surprised, if they haven't even considered the legality. By the way, they haven't even launched yet this year.


The same way keeping RV's and vacation homes. They are not owned by individuals, but corporations.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

tdoster said:


> The same way keeping RV's and vacation homes. They are not owned by individuals, but corporations.


State registered boats do not require a cruising permit regardless if they are owned by non-US citizens or not. There is no legal prohibition against foreign ownership of a state registered vessel.

US document vessels cannot be owned by any entity other than a US citizen or US corporation (often owned by foreigners).


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