# safe cooking



## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

i have read a lot of threads about stoves on boats. of course, the usual debate is alcohol or propane.

recently, last month actually, a powerboat at the marina my boat is berthed at caught fire and burned up completely. it was a live aboard. the guy was hurt but he lived. he was lucky. he bought another power boat off of their lean dock and moved into it. the cause? his propane stove. 

that was a real piece of reality for me. no propane on my boat! 

but, there are safety risks with alcohol, too. the threads i have read make that plain. so, the big question i have is what other options are there?

also, how real is the risk with alcohol?

as i get my boat ready to sail, this will be a choice i am going to have to face. it doesn't have a stove but i will want one for cruising. eating out at every port you stp at is going to be way too costly and you can't always be sure you will be stopping at a port for the night. thanks.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

captain jack said:


> ...
> 
> that was a real piece of reality for me. no propane on my boat! ...


A wise choice, IMHO.



captain jack said:


> ...but, there are safety risks with alcohol, too. the threads i have read make that plain. so, the big question i have is what other options are there?
> 
> also, how real is the risk with alcohol?
> 
> ...


The old, pressurized, alcohol stoves were a hazard, mainly because it's difficult to see an alcohol flame unless the lighting is pretty dim. A leak, or fully open unlit burner, could get quite a fire going before anyone realized what was happening. However, modern non-pressurized alcohol stoves (such as those from Origo and Cookmate) are about as safe as a cooker can get. The fuel is much safer than propane, it's almost impossible for the canisters to leak, and there are no hoses, valves, etc., to leak. About the only way I've ever heard of anyone having an uncontrolled fire with an unpressurized stove is if they try to refill the canister while there is still a flame going (which just proves that nothing is completely idiot-proof).

Oh, and while non-pressurized alcohol stove may seem pricy compared to their propane counterparts, that difference vanishes (or is reversed) when you consider the cost of the hoses/tubing, valves, solenoid, vapor sniffer, tank(s), etc., none of which are necessary the a non-pressurized stove.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

captain jack said:


> i have read a lot of threads about stoves on boats. of course, the usual debate is alcohol or propane.
> 
> recently, last month actually, a powerboat at the marina my boat is berthed at caught fire and burned up completely. it was a live aboard. the guy was hurt but he lived. he was lucky. he bought another power boat off of their lean dock and moved into it. the cause? his propane stove.
> 
> ...


One word:

kerosene!


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

This is interesting Propane is not now, nor has it ever been unsafe on boats. People are unsafe and do stupid things every day. Maintain your stuff and it will serve you.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Our first family boat had an alcohol stove and when mum lit it the alcohol spilled from the saucer thingy and caused a fure. Dad and I leapt to the rescue and used both dry powder extinguises.... But that didnt put the fire out.
Mum the put a towel over it and smmothered the lot. So much for heroic men 

So, no alcohol stoves on my boat.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

My Boat came with CNG. I like it so I've never converted to propane. I know it's not readily available, but I have had no difficulty filling up here in the Northeast U.S. Perhaps with the resurgence of Natural Gas, CNG may become more readily available in the future. Who knows.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

captain jack said:


> i have read a lot of threads about stoves on boats. of course, the usual debate is alcohol or propane.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> that was a real piece of reality for me. no propane on my boat!


There are only so many options.

People all over the world, ashore and afloat, cook on propane or butane. There are maintenance requirements as for so many other systems but they aren't onerous. Propane all in all is pretty safe.

Alcohol has two big issues - the flame is very difficult to see and the energy content is low. The latter means extended cooking times.

Kerosene has odor issues if combustion isn't well managed and the appliance choices are limited. For most you'll have heat issues - fine in northern latitudes, not so great in the tropics.

Electrical heat - resistance or inductive has a growing following but you are completely dependent on your generator running for every meal.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

The option that I chose, and that nobody here has mentioned so far, is an electric galley. I have a Ceran 4 burner stove and oven aboard which is quite energy efficient. Baking bread or other things in the oven takes a lot of power to warm up, but once at temperature the electrical use is miserly indeed.

An electric galley requires a hefty inverter and a good sized battery bank if one doesn't want to fire up a generator in order to bake or cook, but I'm glad I went that way and have no propane in the cabin (I kept the propane tanks and they are hooked up to the BBQ outside and all of the interior tubing is in place but not connected.

Electric Galley on Zanshin


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

The reality of this discussion is the numbers. There are literally thousands of propane stoves out there for every alcohol stove. There are a very few explosions when you compare the numbers like that. Just like gas is dangerous, and I don't see all you with gas engines swearing never to have one on your boat, propane is dangerous, but with a properly set up system and an operator who is halfway cautious, there is no more danger with a propane system than with any other.
As someone who has a boat with electric cooking (I guess you'd call that the ultimate safe stove?), I'd switch in a heartbeat and never regret it.
If you are an alcoholic, have Alzheimer's or someone who just can't operate and maintain something as simple as a stove, then by all means, find an alternative, but blaming propane for the errors of it's operators is the same as blaming any tool for it's operator's actions. It is much more likely you will be injured or killed DRIVING down to your boat in your car, than by your propane stove.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

barefootnavigator said:


> This is interesting Propane is not now, nor has it ever been unsafe on boats. People are unsafe and do stupid things every day. Maintain your stuff and it will serve you.


Propane is inherently MUCH more dangerous than alcohol. (<- note the period at the end of that sentence)


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Our first family boat had an alcohol stove and when mum lit it the alcohol spilled from the saucer thingy and caused a fure. Dad and I leapt to the rescue and used both dry powder extinguises.... But that didnt put the fire out.
> Mum the put a towel over it and smmothered the lot. So much for heroic men
> 
> So, no alcohol stoves on my boat.


Sounds like a pressurized alcohol stove. Modern non-pressurized alcohol stoves don't have that problem.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

Tempest said:


> My Boat came with CNG. I like it so I've never converted to propane. I know it's not readily available, but I have had no difficulty filling up here in the Northeast U.S. Perhaps with the resurgence of Natural Gas, CNG may become more readily available in the future. Who knows.


CNG (compressed natural gas) is another good option because it is lighter than air and can't accumulate in the bilge. However, it can be difficult to find outside of the US.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

^^^^amen to that(captas paragraph)

this is nonsense never use a car then if your afraid of propane or gas, or an outboard or go inside buildings with heaters

or under your house whatever

it cant get any more simple

there is a valve on the tank connector(prefferably outside in open air or at least a box with a vent down below, I preffer completely exposed) and a soleinoid or second valve before the stove oven...

when using the stoves you always work your way back so with flame on you turn the tank off first...let the gas burn from the tubing completelt then shutoff second valve then stove valve

repeat process to turn on in reverse...

a good way to check for leaks is simply turn on stove first and light it...if it ignites and all your valves are "closed" you know yo have a problem...

I just did this in my house not too long ago...shutting of the valve at the tank did nothing to stop the flame going out so I just replaced the valve

done

all these explosions and stuff are simply from idiots doing stuff wrong or not giving a crap...

fancy expensive installations but the boat is never used so you have something that fails you never know about it and bam...stuff like that

but like others having been around and travelled a lot with propane this was the least of our worries when cruising...

If I were a solo sailor on a very small boat say under 25 feet you cant beat JAMES BALDWINS gimballed kerosene cooker...

it combines the benefits of kerosene, pressure so you have less soot and gimballed single burner for simplicity...

ps alcohol is not a worldwide fuel and is much scarcer and non existant in many countries...using other alcohols is cost prohibitive

kerosene is very popular and yes you can use diesel instead and add a touch of something I forget to improve flame and decrease soot

and lastly PROPANE can be found ANYWHERE


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> One word:
> 
> kerosene!


Personally, I wouldn't mind a kero stove. However, my wife is particularly sensitive to such fumes. Even a "perfectly burning" kero stove drives her nuts when we've used them while camping in the Great Outdoors. In a boat cabin I would probably have a mutiny on my hands.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

On my Allegra 24 I had no sniffer and no cylinoid. I plumbed it myself so I knew it was good. I had one continues fuel line from stern mounted tank to oven. When I wanted to cook I turned it on half turn open. When I was done cooking I shut it off and let fuel burn out of line. These are very low pressure systems and 100% infallible when done correctly.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

christian.hess said:


> ^^^^amen to that(captas paragraph)
> 
> this is nonsense never use a car then if your afraid of propane or gas, or an outboard or go inside buildings with heaters
> ...


A car or house are NOT the same as a boat. If you haven't noticed, a boat has a bilge. That bilge collects fumes. You can vent the bilge with a fan, but relying on electrical gizmos that live in a salty, damp environment, to prevent an explosion is problematic at best. Why not just avoid the dangerous fumes all together?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> A wise choice, IMHO.
> 
> The old, pressurized, alcohol stoves were a hazard, mainly because it's difficult to see an alcohol flame unless the lighting is pretty dim. A leak, or fully open unlit burner, could get quite a fire going before anyone realized what was happening. However, modern non-pressurized alcohol stoves (such as those from Origo and Cookmate) are about as safe as a cooker can get. The fuel is much safer than propane, it's almost impossible for the canisters to leak, and there are no hoses, valves, etc., to leak. About the only way I've ever heard of anyone having an uncontrolled fire with an unpressurized stove is if they try to refill the canister while there is still a flame going (which just proves that nothing is completely idiot-proof).
> 
> Oh, and while non-pressurized alcohol stove may seem pricy compared to their propane counterparts, that difference vanishes (or is reversed) when you consider the cost of the hoses/tubing, valves, solenoid, vapor sniffer, tank(s), etc., none of which are necessary the a non-pressurized stove.


thanks. i had forgotten about the non-pressurized types, in my post. that's an option i will have to look into farther.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> A car or house are NOT the same as a boat. If you haven't noticed, a boat has a bilge. That bilge collects fumes. You can vent the bilge with a fan, but relying on electrical gizmos that live in a salty, damp environment, to prevent an explosion is problematic at best. Why not just avoid the dangerous fumes all together?


yes I HAVE noticed but the FEAR is nonsense and from travelling around the world I have noticed that properly installed propane systems are what 99 percent of cruisers use and that failure rate due to propane is ZERO

failure cause of dumbass installations or bad useage was what caused problems

it cant get any simpler...a line from a tank to a stove...you shutoff at the source and check for leaks if you are in doubt...thats how you test and see if there is a failure...

if your prudent you replace lines every couple of years

end of story


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

barefootnavigator said:


> On my Allegra 24 I had no sniffer and no cylinoid. I plumbed it myself so I knew it was good. I had one continues fuel line from stern mounted tank to oven. When I wanted to cook I turned it on half turn open. When I was done cooking I shut it off and let fuel burn out of line. These are very low pressure systems and 100% infallible _*when done correctly.*_


Aye, there's the rub --- "_*when done correctly.*_"

It only takes forgetting, or being distracted, or a leak in the line filling you bilge _while_ you are cooking, ONCE to make for a really bad day.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

How would you get a leak in the line?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> This is interesting Propane is not now, nor has it ever been unsafe on boats. People are unsafe and do stupid things every day. Maintain your stuff and it will serve you.


care to expound on that? if there are things that ca be done to make sure nothing like that ever happens on my boat, i will think about the propane option a bit more before i totally rule it out. however, i have read a lot f posts that really don't support propane being a 'safe' fuel and after seeing that burnt out husk at the marina ( and picturing having been my boat ) that sinched it for me. but i'm always willing to listen to the voice of reason.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> One word:
> 
> kerosene!


wouldn't a kero cook stove stink like a kero heater? and what about the fumes? kero heaters can kill you. kero is safer to handle than, say, gas.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> Aye, there's the rub --- "_*when done correctly.*_"
> 
> It only takes forgetting, or being distracted, or a leak in the line filling you bilge _while_ you are cooking, ONCE to make for a really bad day.


so you can run an inboard and maintain it but not a line(hose)?

I mean there are installations here and I use tanks down here that are plastic hose, 2 stainless clamps and a valve...they last for years and years and years with absolutely no issues if you have a little grey matter between your ears...

what is hard about replacing a line every 2 years?

you can have a leak in the propane and be cooking and still nothing happens at all...I have done it when cooking at the beach house and you smell it...all you do is replace the valve or line next time you cook

on a boat having fan in the bige is stupidity and you are making something SO SIMPLE so complicated

its the potential sparks of said fan(especially if not a brushlessmotor) that would ignite propane

all you would need to do if you smell gas is simply open bilge and wave a pillow and the gas will flow out

I mean come on guys


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

christian.hess said:


> ...
> failure cause of dumbass installations or bad useage was what caused problems
> 
> ...


Even the best equipment, installed correctly, can fail. Beyond that, even the smartest people do dumb things from time to time; particularly when tired, or distracted. Now, can you honestly tell us that you've never been tired or distracted while sailing?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

captain jack said:


> care to expound on that? if there are things that ca be done to make sure nothing like that ever happens on my boat, i will think about the propane option a bit more before i totally rule it out. however, i have read a lot f posts that really don't support propane being a 'safe' fuel and after seeing that burnt out husk at the marina ( and picturing having been my boat ) that sinched it for me. but i'm always willing to listen to the voice of reason.


captain

its a shame you saw that but please do some reseacrh and see what caused it...ask him if need be...or the police report or whatever

propane is not unsafe...by any means and its one of the simplest installations and jobs to do on a boat

its just hose, clamps some tubing...and a valve or solenoid if you want

KISS


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> Even the best equipment, installed correctly, can fail. Beyond that, even the smartest people do dumb things from time to time; particularly when tired, or distracted. Now, can you honestly tell us that you've never been tired or distracted while sailing?


im not saying that man

geeze


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

christian.hess said:


> so you can run an inboard and maintain it but not a line(hose)?
> 
> I mean there are installations here and I use tanks down here that are plastic hose, 2 stainless clamps and a valve...they last for years and years and years with absolutely no issues if you have a little grey matter between your ears...
> 
> ...


Sigh.....

Do what you want. I'll just use a stove that that is safe without relying on anything else.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

First off lets look at safety. You have a better chance of dying from brushing your teeth "fluoride" or dying in your car "read statistics" than you do from being blown up from a properly maintained system. If you are not comfortable with any fuel definitely don't use it. Life is too short to live it having doubts about the safety of your boat. I'm not a fan of anything electric on a boat but thats just me. Kill those batteries and you don't get your mooring coffee, half way to Hawaii and this could cause a mutiny. Once you leave the states you will not find alcohol as Hess commented or CNG, you will however find propane in the most BFE places on the planet and its cheap. I housed my entire line in PVC tubing to protect it from me being an idiot at the throwing my knive collection... at it. I plumbed it fasted to the underside of my deck so it was as safe and out of the way as possible. If the tank valve fails, It can happen. You still have the stove valve. Blow through a straw and you will create 100 times more pressure that is coming through the regulator, very low pressure system. It stinks to holy heaven, I can't imagine how anyone could miss a leak. One last note just because you get a leak doesn't mean your boat will blow up. You have to be an extra special type of moron to blow your boat up with propane.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

christian.hess said:


> im not saying that man
> 
> geeze


But that is the point. Propane is only "safe" if everything works correctly and/or the operator does everything he/she should. While the latter is true for all fuels, the chances of screwing up with a non-pressurized stove are FAR less, and even if you do the fumes are far less likely to cause an explosion and/or fire.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I like the simplicity of my non- pressurized alcohol stove. Yeah, lower energy potential than Porpane, but unless you do all of your cooking on high flame, the actual difference is pretty negligible on a small burner, small footprint marine stove. An over or a large footprint burner would be a different story.

another advantage of a small alcohol stove is the "hoseless" portability. want to do a fondue or grill night with friends in the cockpit? Bring the alcohol stove outside, put it on the cockpit table, and you are good to go.

Another "safe" alternative is small butane ranges. 2-Burner Butane Countertop Range / Portable Stove with Brass Burners

Not as durable as a stainless steel alcohol range, but at the price, you could buy one a year for 10 years before the cost difference is eaten up.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Tempest said:


> My Boat came with CNG. I like it so I've never converted to propane. I know it's not readily available, but I have had no difficulty filling up here in the Northeast U.S. Perhaps with the resurgence of Natural Gas, CNG may become more readily available in the future. Who knows.


that's an option i hadn't heard of. one question. since it's compressed under high pressure do you have to worry about someone dropping the cannister and it becoming a missile, like an oxygen tank?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> Sigh.....
> 
> Do what you want. I'll just use a stove that that is safe without relying on anything else.


Im not being argumentative here but what is your ARGUMENT?

electric is the simplest but they do have thier issues if that what you have good for you...

I can say the same to you sigh do what you want

I just dont see what your argument is

I mean I can argue if you have an electric stove that your chances of death by electrocution are much higher or that shorts are more dangerous etc...

same for electric inboard installations when people accidently short the 48, 72, or 96 battery bank it can be deadly but thats not an argument AGAINST electric is it?

you can die there...so what is the argument?

is it that propane is unsafe?
if that is your argument than simply put you are wrong...

if you want to argue that there are better fuels including eletric then I would say you are right up to a point....

practicallity, installation, cost are all issues needed to be considered

what captain jack was asking was based on a recent event regarding propane and an explosion or fire...

if that is enough to scare him off than that is his issue...it would be interesting though to see the cause of the fire...

anyways

whatever method you use be smart and prudent thats all I can advise at this point


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

BJ I'm currently using this system as I rebuild my galley and they are great but also VERY dangerous and have a history of blowing to high hell. We have a ten minute max before we enter the danger zone. That being said when we took a knock down this summer "captains fault" we taco'd the stove, our second lost stove to date "captain needs to install reef lines" and it was about 24 bucks to replace. Finding fuel can be a challenge. I would guess I have used these about 1500 meals to date and love it minus fear of early entrance to heaven


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

captain jack said:


> that's an option i hadn't heard of. one question. since it's compressed under high pressure do you have to worry about someone dropping the cannister and it becoming a missile, like an oxygen tank?


hows this for an example

at my restaraunt(small) we use 25 lb and 35 lb propane tanks with simple valves bougt at the hardware store

we had a tank that failed...the internal seal of the tank failed NOT the valve or connector...

yes it was scary for my female cooks who went bezerk and screamed out of the kitchen

I grabbed the tank and took it outside to leak away

you want to know what the propane dealer did to stop the leak?

he grabbed the tank and held it up high over his head and procedeed to smack the top of the tank straight down into the concrete

and bingo the leak stopped...

no jaws type flying oxygen tanks exploding in mouths type stuff

if that were to happen on a boat just let the tank leak till it stops...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Zanshin said:


> The option that I chose, and that nobody here has mentioned so far, is an electric galley. I have a Ceran 4 burner stove and oven aboard which is quite energy efficient. Baking bread or other things in the oven takes a lot of power to warm up, but once at temperature the electrical use is miserly indeed.
> 
> An electric galley requires a hefty inverter and a good sized battery bank if one doesn't want to fire up a generator in order to bake or cook, but I'm glad I went that way and have no propane in the cabin (I kept the propane tanks and they are hooked up to the BBQ outside and all of the interior tubing is in place but not connected.
> 
> Electric Galley on Zanshin


i was wondering if electric was an option. at home, i prefer electric stoves. natural gas can kill you.

i won't be needing an oven, just a stove top. heck, i never could get bread to rise when i have tried baking it, anyway.

i wonder how bad a draw electric stove tops are....


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> CNG (compressed natural gas) is another good option because it is lighter than air and can't accumulate in the bilge. However, it can be difficult to find outside of the US.


that probably won't be an problem here in the chesapeake. i will definately have to look into that further. i googled it and wiki says it's being used to fuel transportation on a growing basis around the world so maybe he is right about CNG being a fuel for the future.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I should ad that I cruised the west coast for three years in my Flicka using a double burner non pressurized alcohol stove with zero complaints other than finding fuel. Not trying to say propane is best choice, just not a bad one.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Just for info there has been a tragic accident where a long term cruiser has been found with severe injuries next to a burning yacht off the coast of St Vincent. He died.

A propane gas explosion is the likely cause.

Diving instructor believes British yachtsman John Garner's death was an accident | Mail Online


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> On my Allegra 24 I had no sniffer and no cylinoid. I plumbed it myself so I knew it was good. I had one continues fuel line from stern mounted tank to oven. When I wanted to cook I turned it on half turn open. When I was done cooking I shut it off and let fuel burn out of line. These are very low pressure systems and 100% infallible when done correctly.


that makes that option sound a lot safer. trouble is, i have interior storage space but very little outside. where to put the tank might be an issue. although i don't consider myself an idiot and i am always safety minded when i do stuff, things happen. if there are fuels to use that have less of a chance of things happening, then those are better options. murphy's law is always a consideration.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> captain
> 
> its a shame you saw that but please do some reseacrh and see what caused it...ask him if need be...or the police report or whatever
> 
> ...


you are right. i should check on that. i don't know the details. all i know is that he uses propane and it went up because of the propane. i don't know what he was doing at the time and i don't know the condition of his system. he used it all the time, thougj, because he was a live aboard. it wasn't a case of a boat that sits developing an issue that just didn't get caught.

i admit, freely, the sight of that completely burnrd out boat was a bit shocking and made me think more than twice about the issue of cooking fuel. it's an issue i never had to consider on a boat, before. there wasn't really anything that could be saved on that boat. it was, quite litterally, toast.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm a bonehead and it was safe for me. I found a rack online to store small tank on stern rail, very simple.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

just to add to the discussion I used an origo twin pop down burner alcohol stove that came with my international folkboat really cool stove that stowed as a unit like a locker than simply popped down for use...

safe easy to use the only drawback was expense buying fuel even in california...

the flame was almost impossible to see its was low btys so boiling water for coco or a ramen was not exactly instant and it could be on and you wouldnt know about it unless you put your hand over it...

but Im a cook so flames dont scare me that bad as Im used to flare ups and whatnot...

so its understable to have a natural bad reaction to gas stoves and the like but it can be made simply on any fuel really

just use some common sense and prudency


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> BJ I'm currently using this system as I rebuild my galley and they are great but also VERY dangerous and have a history of blowing to high hell. We have a ten minute max before we enter the danger zone. That being said when we took a knock down this summer "captains fault" we taco'd the stove, our second lost stove to date "captain needs to install reef lines" and it was about 24 bucks to replace. Finding fuel can be a challenge. I would guess I have used these about 1500 meals to date and love it minus fear of early entrance to heaven


you are talking about butane?


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## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

Can propane explode? Sure. Is it too risky? Do its benefits outweigh its risks? Well, that's an entirely subjective calculation that everyone has to answer for himself.

I will note that lots of houses (at least in New England) are HEATED by propane. Many homes across the country have propane gas fireplaces. Of course, many more homes are heated with natural gas (and have gas stoves and fireplaces.) Occasionally, some of those explode. Of course, lots of houses burn down because of electrical fires. Most things are not completely safe, but risks can be minimized and managed.

I have propane on my boat and and fine with it. But when I bought her, I replaced all the propane lines and valves with new. I put in a new stove with a thermocouple (the old one did not have that safety feature.) I have a solenoid and a sniffer. And I'm annal about turning the gas off at the tank every time I'm not using it and letting the gas burn out of the lines before I shut the appliance off.

Bottom line is that I think propane is very safe if used with care. I think that goes for most things. Turn off the brain and things can go south in a hurry for a whole basket of reasons...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

TQA said:


> Just for info there has been a tragic accident where a long term cruiser has been found with severe injuries next to a burning yacht off the coast of St Vincent. He died.
> 
> A propane gas explosion is the likely cause.
> 
> Diving instructor believes British yachtsman John Garner's death was an accident | Mail Online


see......that's what worries me about propane. it does happen. and it happened in my marina. that's kind of close to home. too close to totally ignore.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

captain jack said:


> you are talking about butane?


Yes, the stove can overheat and bottle is 1 inch from flame.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

captain jack said:


> see......that's what worries me about propane. it does happen. and it happened in my marina. that's kind of close to home. too close to totally ignore.


just to add to the fire that thread has foul play as one of the causes...

whatever the case just do your research and you will be rewarded wth tons of info

if I ever solo sail again on a small boat I repeat that james baldwins kerosene gimballed cooker is hard to beat


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## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

Some tips from Don Casey:
BoatUS - BoatTech - Propane Systems by Don Casey


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

I had these same fears of cooking with propane, alcohol, butane, etc...

My solution... I removed the original Origo stove which was in great condition but felt it better to use something more safe... what did I do... installed an induction stove into the galley opening and never looked back. I have a 3000 watt pure sine wave inverter that runs the unit and since it's very efficient there is no need to worry about battery usage... haven't had a problem all the time I was using the stove on the boat and my wife that would have been non-skilled on the alcohol stove doesn't have a worry now... it is the first thing my next boat will have... all induction cooking/baking. 

I do have a camp stove w/butane in the boat stored away for when we drop anchor on some shore and cook our foods with that.

I kept the Origo stove to replace back on the boat if when selling the buyer wants the alcohol stove... I put it in storage.

I will say it again... I have no worries ever again with the sort of worries others have with these types of flammable fuels.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

bljones said:


> I like the simplicity of my non- pressurized alcohol stove. Yeah, lower energy potential than Porpane, but unless you do all of your cooking on high flame, the actual difference is pretty negligible on a small burner, small footprint marine stove. An over or a large footprint burner would be a different story.
> 
> another advantage of a small alcohol stove is the "hoseless" portability. want to do a fondue or grill night with friends in the cockpit? Bring the alcohol stove outside, put it on the cockpit table, and you are good to go.
> 
> ...


holy hot plate batman! that is cheap.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> Yes, the stove can overheat and bottle is 1 inch from flame.


well, now. that is a drawback!


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> just to add to the fire that thread has foul play as one of the causes...
> 
> whatever the case just do your research and you will be rewarded wth tons of info
> 
> if I ever solo sail again on a small boat I repeat that james baldwins kerosene gimballed cooker is hard to beat


that's the reason for the thread. i want to learn before i decide. i will have to look into that type of cooker. i am used to handling kero.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

guitarguy56 said:


> I had these same fears of cooking with propane, alcohol, butane, etc...
> 
> My solution... I removed the original Origo stove which was in great condition but felt it better to use something more safe... what did I do... installed an induction stove into the galley opening and never looked back. I have a 3000 watt pure sine wave inverter that runs the unit and since it's very efficient there is no need to worry about battery usage... haven't had a problem all the time I was using the stove on the boat and my wife that would have been non-skilled on the alcohol stove doesn't have a worry now... it is the first thing my next boat will have... all induction cooking/baking.
> 
> ...


induction cooker are great...they are very popular in europe and especially france and spain and beleive it or not they are highly regarded by chefs in modern cooking...

MODERN COOKING IS LESS FLAME USE BTW...jajaja

I would live and induction cooker on a boat if I had good space to keep it working with panels, wind power etc...and a nice inverter like you have

they are very cool I think but budget wise not for me yet


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## mitchbrown (Jan 21, 2009)

barefootnavigator said:


> Blow through a straw and you will create 100 times more pressure that is coming through the regulator, very low pressure system. It stinks to holy heaven, I can't imagine how anyone could miss a leak. One last note just because you get a leak doesn't mean your boat will blow up. You have to be an extra special type of moron to blow your boat up with propane.


Propane low pressure regulators are factory set at 3 PSI. if you can blow 100 times more PSI than that, id have to say you have been practicing.

Also someone mentioned that he/she only opens the valve 1/2 turn. Propane valves are double sealing valves and as such need to be all the way open or all the way closed or they can leak past the stem packing. How many super smart propane users knew that.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

reading the link provided by multihullgirl doesn't make me feel all that good about propane or butane. i definately will be keeping them on the back burner ( sorry. i couldn't help it. it was such an obvious pun. it would have been negligent not to have gone there ) as i check out non-pressurized alcohol, CNG, electric, and induction.


strike that. induction and electric are out because of battery needs. just non-pressurized alcohol and CNG to choose from....oh, and kero.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> How would you get a leak in the line?


How do you get a leak in ANY line? There are many ways.

In the example discussed, a rat gnawed on it.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

You can always use wood


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

The only problem with electric stoves, whether conventional electric or induction, is that you need a pretty hefty power source (usually a gen-set or shore power). I doubt a Cal 27-1 is going to have a gen-set, so you would be limited to cooking in places where you can get shore power. You can get a combo electric-alcohol (non-pressurized) stove from Origo, but they're pretty pricey. I used to keep a little electric hotplate on my boat so that I wouldn't need to burn alcohol at the dock, but I decided that it was just easier to used the alcohol stove even at the dock.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> How do you get a leak in ANY line? There are many way.
> 
> In the example discussed, a rat gnawed on it.


If you have rats on your boat propane is the least of your problems. I guess a plane could crash into your boat that may sever the line.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

barefootnavigator said:


> How would you get a leak in the line?


It's a boat --- things break, wear through, jiggle loose, etc.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

captain jack said:


> wouldn't a kero cook stove stink like a kero heater? and what about the fumes? kero heaters can kill you. kero is safer to handle than, say, gas.


Kerosene stinks if it is not properly vaporized. For instance, if you put it in an oil lamp (with a wick), that will happen. Or if your stove/oven is not properly maintained or operated.

If properly vaporized, good quality kerosene has no smell.

Fumes: yet, if you spill it, it will smell. But it will not explode and it will burn only with difficulty (you can throw a match in a puddle of kerosene and it will not burn). It will also smell if not properly vaporized (typically not enough pre-heating).

Kero heaters can kill you if you operate them without enough fresh air (carbon monoxide poisoning). This applies to ANY open flame heater (kero, gas, wood, coal, ...).

So, in summary, the worst consequence of poor maintenance or poor operation of a kerosene stove is that it smells. For LPG, it is instant death of the operator and anyone else on board.

Which one do you choose?


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> It's a boat --- things break, wear through, jiggle loose, etc.


Thats what we call a complete and total lack of routine maintenance.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> If you have rats on your boat propane is the least of your problems. I guess a plane could crash into your boat that may sever the line.


I would not consider a gas explosion a minor problem.

The boat in the slip next to me (on the Chesapeake Bay) some time ago discovered a mouse on the boat. It happens.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Did his boat explode?


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

barefootnavigator said:


> Thats what we call a complete and total lack of routine maintenance.


I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was talking to a perfect boat owner. For us mere mortals, sh*t happens.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Now that you know let me give you a little free advice that will save your life. Maintain your boat and it will maintain your life and lifestyle. How easy is that???


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

A used origo stove from Sweden, because a new 2 burner is $250-350. Denatured alcohol stove fuel-$10 to $20 a gallon at hardware stores, quart at walmart. Hard not to spill when filling canisters. You need to see pics of canister.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> Did his boat explode?


(It was more her boat than his, actually. Anyway.)

No, it did not explode.

And your point is? I don't even know what stove they had on the boat (they have since moved). Let us assume it was indeed gas.

Then you have clearly shown that there is ONE boat with an LPG system that did NOT immediately blow up. Even though it was certainly possible, just as the boat that exploded this week because of the rat bite.

I would feel so much better now if I had a gas system.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

Here's a story of a boat owner who wouldn't have had any real problems IF her boat's stove had been a non-pressureized alcohol unit. Granted, she made a pretty dumb mistake by using a lighter after she smelled gas, but mere mortals make mistakes from time to time.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> (It was more her boat than his, actually. Anyway.)
> 
> No, it did not explode.
> 
> ...


Let me take a minute and explain how a properly used and maintained propane system works very simply. There is a shut off at the tank it should be shut off IE NO FUEL IN LINE OR BOAT. RTFM


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

barefootnavigator said:


> Now that you know let me give you a little free advice that will save your life. Maintain your boat and it will maintain your life and lifestyle. How easy is that???


Alex, "What is unnecessary pollyannaesque condescension?"
I'll take "Armchair Hypothetical $500/mo. Cruisers with All the Answers" for $400.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I might have a 500 budget but at least I can turn a stove on...


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> Let me take a minute and explain how a properly used and maintained propane system works very simply. There is a shut off at the tank it should be shut off IE NO FUEL IN LINE OR BOAT. RTFM


I couldn't even think of replying to this any better than bljones does in the previous posting


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

barefootnavigator said:


> Let me take a minute and explain how a properly used and maintained propane system works very simply. There is a shut off at the tank it should be shut off IE NO FUEL IN LINE OR BOAT. RTFM


And if the valve seal(s) fail, or you get distracted and simply forget, or if the flame gets blown out, etc.???

Let ME take a minute and explain to you how alcohol stoves work --- they CANNOT produce explosive gases (I.E., NO POTENTIALLY EXPLOSIVE FUMES IN THE BILGE, OR ON THE BOAT IN GENERAL; NONE, ZERO, NADDA, ZIP, ZILCH). Propane, on the other hand IS an explosion risk, RTFM*.

(* - From the manual for a Dickinson propane unit: "*LPG is heavier than air and if allowed will settle in lower areas resulting in a potential explosion*.")


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## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> And if the valve seal(s) fail, or you get distracted and simply forget, or if the flame gets blown out, etc.???
> 
> .


If the flame goes out then appliances with a thermocouple will automatically stop the flow of gas.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> And if the valve seal(s) fail, or you get distracted and simply forget, or if the flame gets blown out, etc.???
> 
> Let ME take a minute and explain to you how alcohol stoves work --- they CANNOT produce explosive gases (I.E., NO POTENTIALLY EXPLOSIVE FUMES IN THE BILGE, OR ON THE BOAT IN GENERAL; NONE, ZERO, NADDA, ZIP, ZILCH). Propane, on the other hand IS an explosion risk, RTFM*.
> 
> (* - From the manual for a Dickinson propane unit: "LPG is heavier than air and if allowed will settle in lower areas resulting in a potential explosion.")


What if a rat eats through your storage bottle and you accidentally point your lit blow torch it the hole where alcohol is leaking out.


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## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

Checking for a leak on propane lines is so easy and fast that it can (and should be) done periodically.

Turn tank valve on. Immediately turn it off. Note reading on pressure gauge. Wait 5 minutes. Look at pressure gauge again. It's that easy.

If the pressure has dropped at all, you have a leak. Do not use the propane system until you have found and fixed the leak.

I find the "What if (insert low probability event here)?" a bit silly. 

As I said before, propane can explode. (So can gas fumes.) Everyone has to decide what risks to take and how to mitigate them.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

barefootnavigator said:


> What if a rat eats through your storage bottle and you accidentally point your blow lit torch it the hole where alcohol is leaking out.


No fuel is absolutely safe. However, propane is inherently more risky than alcohol. No amount of valves, sniffers, and assorted safety gizmos will ever change that simple fact. If you feel propane is worth the risk, fine, feel free to use it to your heart's content. It's your life. But I will also feel free to tell folks the facts. If I'm wrong, I take a minute or two longer to cook my lunch. If you're wrong, _*BOOM*_! You make your choice, I'll make mine.

End of discussion, as far as I'm concerned.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> As I said earlier, no fuel is absolutely safe. Propane is inherently more risky than alcohol. No amount of valves, sniffers, and assorted safety gizmos will ever change that simple fact. If you feel propane is worth the risk, fine, feel free. It's your life. But I will also feel free to tell folks the facts. If I'm wrong, I take a minute or two longer to cook my lunch. If you're wrong, _*BOOM*_! You make your choice, I'll make mine.
> 
> End of discussion, as far as I'm concerned.


The problem with coming into the middle of a thread like this is you miss all the previous posts like where I gave a very specific positive example of years of use with a a non pressurized alcohol stove, they are great. Propane stoves are also great and safe as is kerosene when used properly.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> A car or house are NOT the same as a boat. If you haven't noticed, a boat has a bilge. That bilge collects fumes. You can vent the bilge with a fan, but relying on electrical gizmos that live in a salty, damp environment, to prevent an explosion is problematic at best. Why not just avoid the dangerous fumes all together?


Gee, do you have a stove in your car, I don't! Never have! No, the point there was that DRIVING is more dangerous than having a propane stove on a boat; do you understand that point now? 
For crying out loud, talk about missing the point, much!


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Kerosene stinks if it is not properly vaporized. For instance, if you put it in an oil lamp (with a wick), that will happen. Or if your stove/oven is not properly maintained or operated.
> 
> If properly vaporized, good quality kerosene has no smell.
> 
> ...


solid point, there. i am used to wick type space heaters....so, smell came to mind.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I would not consider a gas explosion a minor problem.
> 
> The boat in the slip next to me (on the Chesapeake Bay) some time ago discovered a mouse on the boat. It happens.


check that out. you are pretty close by.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sidney777 said:


> A used origo stove from Sweden, because a new 2 burner is $250-350. Denatured alcohol stove fuel-$10 to $20 a gallon at hardware stores, quart at walmart. Hard not to spill when filling canisters. You need to see pics of canister.


really? it goes for $10 to $20 a gallon? how long does a gallon last?


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

one gallon goes 12 hours give or take.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

That powerboat did not catch fire because of the propane stove. I guarantee you that.

It caught fire _because of the inexperienced operator_, who failed to properly inspect and maintain their equipment, which just happened to include a stove.

If the same guy lit up a cigarette at a gas station and set it on fire, would you blame the gasoline? Ahuh, I thought so.

IIRC BoatUS has a web article someplace that reported the greatest number of "stove" fires came from those nice safe alcohol stoves, that use a fuel which is pretty famous for leaking and burning with an invisible flame, which then spreads like any other wildfire.

Go to Costco, buy the big boxes of Snickers Bars. No need for cooking or flames onboard any boat at any time, any way.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

capta said:


> Gee, do you have a stove in your car, I don't! Never have! No, the point there was that DRIVING is more dangerous than having a propane stove on a boat; do you understand that point now?
> For crying out loud, talk about missing the point, much!


you don't have a stove in your car? how on earth do you fix lunch when on road trips?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

that what the engine is for to heat up a burrito


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Kerosene stinks if it is not properly vaporized. "

MastUndSchotbruch-
Everyone has a different reason for why _their _own kerosene doesn't stink. But the bottom line is that some of us can smell the kerostink no matter what quality kerosense (paraffin oil) you are using. No matter how you trim your wicks. No matter how you tune your engines. (Diesel.)
The stuff always burns with an odor, some people simply are unable to detect it.

There are in fact genetic components that explain why some people simply cannot smell, or test, various compounds. Kerostink hasn't been researched, but I'd bet it is just another one of them.

Last time I won a nice bet, everyone said "Oh, those two beers taste exactly a like." Sure, just like Coke and Pepsi.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

captain jack said:


> really? it goes for $10 to $20 a gallon? how long does a gallon last?


If you buy a gallon can, denatured alcohol is generally about $13 or $14 per gallon. However, a five-gallon can (a bit harder to find, but usually available at paint supply and some non-big-box hardware stores) runs $25 to $35, or $5 to $7 per gallon.

BTW, even at the high end of the $/gal range, compared to all the other costs involved when owning a boat, stove fuel is pretty trivial; less than the price of a mediocre bottle of wine per month.


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## mitchbrown (Jan 21, 2009)

barefootnavigator said:


> one gallon goes 12 hours give or take.


The Origo manual states 6 to 7 hrs per full canister. It takes one quart to fill each canister. My experience is in line with what the manual states. If you don't use your stove much you will find that some alcohol evaporates in time.


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## mitchbrown (Jan 21, 2009)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> If you buy a gallon can, denatured alcohol is generally about $13 or $14 per gallon. However, a five-gallon can (a bit harder to find, but usually available at paint supply and some non-big-box hardware stores) runs $25 to $35, or $5 to $7 per gallon.


Thanks for the tip


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

thanks for all the input guys. it's been a lot, so far.

i am ruling out pressurized alcohol.

alcohol is pretty expensive. that's a consideration with a non pressurized system although they sound pretty safe.

i get the idea that propane is completely safe when everything goes ok and you dot all your T's and cross all your I's. however, i am a big believer in preparing for when ( notice i didn't say if ) stuff goes wrong. if you follow multihullgirl's link, the first words you will read say propane is the most inherrently dangerous fuel used to cook on boats. 

that means, if everything doesn't go perfectly, propane has the greatest liklihood of blowing you out of the water. butane is right up there because it's heavier than air.

to my mind it's kind of like choosing a family plane. they have that carnard, 'wrong way' wing supersonic fighter....what is it? an X 833 or something....it is super maneuverable. and it's perfectly stable in flight as long as it's 18 onboard computers are working. now, if i had the wife and kids ( hypothetical. not married and no kids ) out for a flight and one of those computers goes out, all bets are off. a human can not fly it unaided by computers.

so, my other chice is a piper cub. it may not be as fast as the fancy jet but, it's inherrently safer to fly. which one do you take the wife and kids up in?

stuff goes wrong every day.

that's kind of the way i look at it.

electric in any form is out, for my application. too much juice to run it.

so, i think, so far, i am leaning towards non pressurized alcohol or CNG.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> "Kerosene stinks if it is not properly vaporized. "
> 
> MastUndSchotbruch-
> Everyone has a different reason for why _their _own kerosene doesn't stink. But the bottom line is that some of us can smell the kerostink no matter what quality kerosense (paraffin oil) you are using. No matter how you trim your wicks. No matter how you tune your engines. (Diesel.)
> ...


Oh, I can smell burning kerosene just fine. In fact, it gives me a headache.

BUT: That is if it is burned, not vaporized in a properly functioning pressurized cooker. I have a lamp (the type with a wick) and, just as you are saying, that stinks whether the wick is trimmed well or not. Much worse for a poorly trimmed wick, when it soots.

But you don't seem to understand that the chemistry is different with a pressurized stove that transforms the liquid fuel into a gas, using a heated generator. It is this gas which is then burned, and that process is odorless.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

mitchbrown said:


> The Origo manual states 6 to 7 hrs per full canister. It takes one quart to fill each canister. My experience is in line with what the manual states. If you don't use your stove much you will find that some alcohol evaporates in time.


If you get the little neoprene gaskets, and remember to use them, the evaporation is cut way down.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

A safe diesel stove has not been mentioned. The Wallas diesel cooktop will cook totally odorless as well as provide thermostatically controlled heat. No exposed flame. There is a kerosene single burner and the 2 burners are diesel. They use very little fuel and are push button start. The electrical draw is minimal. With the lid up you can cook. With the lid down they heat the boat.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

mitiempo said:


> A safe diesel stove has not been mentioned. The Wallas diesel cooktop will cook totally odorless as well as provide thermostatically controlled heat. No exposed flame. There is a kerosene single burner and the 2 burners are diesel. They use very little fuel and are push button start. The electrical draw is minimal. With the lid up you can cook. With the lid down they heat the boat.


another option appears. very little fuel. minimal electric draw. multi purpose. safe. i will have to check that one out, too.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

mitiempo said:


> A safe diesel stove has not been mentioned. The Wallas diesel cooktop will cook totally odorless as well as provide thermostatically controlled heat. No exposed flame. There is a kerosene single burner and the 2 burners are diesel. They use very little fuel and are push button start. The electrical draw is minimal. With the lid up you can cook. With the lid down they heat the boat.
> ...


I seriously considered installing one of those before I got my Origo. They have the added advantage that their combustion products are exhausted out of the boat; no fumes, no smells, no water vapor. Nice dry heat. I ultimately decided that the use I would get out of it as a cabin heater wouldn't really be worth the expense. However, if I ever move north......


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

the wallas cook top is a great option, if i had that kind of money. can you find those used?

over 2k for a new wallas set up. around 300 for a new origo. big difference. although the wallas has some serious benefits, incuding boat heat, the price is out of my range unless i found a good used set up.

cookmate sells an origo knock off for 230. single burner for 176.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

captain jack said:


> ...can you find those used?


Maybe but not very likely.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/130737-safe-cooking-new-post.html

here is an interesting GOB article. getting ready to read it now.

http://duckworksmagazine.com/12/howto/stoves/index.html

one from duckworks. not very applicable to my situation but interesting.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

after reading farther into it, CNG doesn't sound that much safer than propane. after reading all of the posts and everything i have found on the web, i am no closer to making a decision. no wonder there has been such contention in this thread.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

captain jack said:


> the wallas cook top is a great option, if i had that kind of money. can you find those used?
> 
> over 2k for a new wallas set up. around 300 for a new origo. big difference. although the wallas has some serious benefits, incuding boat heat, the price is out of my range unless i found a good used set up.
> 
> cookmate sells an origo knock off for 230. single burner for 176.


Check eBay for used Origo stoves. I got my two-burner, flush mounted Origo there for $170, IIRC. It wasn't "like new", but it was in pretty good condition when I got it. Certainly not in any worse shape than the rest of the boat's interior (so, it doesn't look out of place ).

You might also want to consider one of the portable Origo stove/cabin heater units. it puts out just about the same heat as their regular single burner stove and you can store it out of the way when not in use. I put some bolts through the outer case of one and made a little stowable gimbaled stove for heating up stuff while under way. I also use it for cooking in the cockpit on pleasant evenings.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

captain jack said:


> after reading farther into it, CNG doesn't sound that much safer than propane. after reading all of the posts and everything i have found on the web, i am no closer to making a decision. no wonder there has been such contention in this thread.


CNG does have the major advantage that, being lighter than air, it can't settle in the bilge.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> CNG does have the major advantage that, being lighter than air, it can't settle in the bilge.


true


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Then there is this stove:



Boat Gimbaled Stove Mini Galley


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## cthoops (Apr 30, 2012)

x2 for checking out eBay for used Origo stoves. We bought ours a few weeks ago - 2 burners, virtually brand new - for $200.


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## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

mitiempo said:


> Then there is this stove:
> 
> 
> 
> Boat Gimbaled Stove Mini Galley


Fine in the cockpit, I suppose. But I would not bring that stove into the cabin. I do not trust those cylinders. I have encountered leakers that could not be shut off.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Jiminri said:


> Fine in the cockpit, I suppose. But I would not bring that stove into the cabin. I do not trust those cylinders. I have encountered leakers that could not be shut off.


It was just another suggestion - or fuel to the fire. The gimbaled kerosene stoves would be a better choice, like Atom's. Atom Voyages - The Atom Kerosene Stove

Anyway, back to cooking my chicken dinner in my force 10 propane stove.


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Just talking about Safe cooking is not safe! How much are YOU going to cook ? Do you have refrigeration ? Is most of cooking heating canned food, Or fish you catch ? 
Is a Coleman type propane or the Gimbaled one burner above enough ?
How about an all portable Stainless two burner propane camping stove ?
You & loved ones gonna bake cookies & cornbread ? How about a Breadmaker ?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Jiminri said:


> Fine in the cockpit, I suppose. But I would not bring that stove into the cabin. I do not trust those cylinders. I have encountered leakers that could not be shut off.


we used one(better design in aluminum) stove like this for our coast to coast trip of north america

was awesome td into a bulkhead and did fine even cooking in bad weather

no complaints here and the tanks are easy to find and recyclable in many places

yes the coleman cans if rusted can develop leaks in the valve but if all esle fails just leave it on deck till it stops

peace

1 can for us lasted a month


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

These cooking stove discussions seem to produce enough "heat" to brown up some croissants. (sigh...)

One little fact that is missing from several replies is the amount of heat one can get from a burner for any given fuel source. Note that a 5250 BTU burner (in my Origo 6000 range) heats your food the same as any other burner rated for about the same BTU's.
Matters not whether it burns alcohol, Kero, diesel, or electrons.


I have used our Origo Non-Pressurized range for almost 20 years, and before that a propane system for about 9 years.

Prior to that I tried to learn to get along with the Primus kero stove in our prior boat, but was not able to learn enough Swedish swear words to make it behave (?). It was the legendary "Chichester" Model. My abilities were less than legendary, and a liveaboard friend eagerly bought it from me. He loved it!


I have been on a lot of deliveries over the decades with pressure alcohol and would not want it on our boat. Too dangerous. 
While ANY fuel and system can be mastered and made safe (except maybe that contrary Primus!), and I do confess to liking a well-maintained LPG system, the simplicity of the Origo is just wonderful.

*Sidebar: there is actually an extremely easy way to refill the canisters. No spills and no hassle. 
It's been mentioned on these forums elsewhere, and if someone wants, I can put it in a reply again.

Regards,
Loren


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

mitiempo said:


> It was just another suggestion - or fuel to the fire. The gimbaled kerosene stoves would be a better choice, like Atom's. Atom Voyages - The Atom Kerosene Stove
> 
> Anyway, back to cooking my chicken dinner in my force 10 propane stove.


that's cool. $535 for one burner is a bit much. at that rate, if you add the burners up, i could afford te wallace kero cook top.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sidney777 said:


> Just talking about Safe cooking is not safe! How much are YOU going to cook ? Do you have refrigeration ? Is most of cooking heating canned food, Or fish you catch ?
> Is a Coleman type propane or the Gimbaled one burner above enough ?
> How about an all portable Stainless two burner propane camping stove ?
> You & loved ones gonna bake cookies & cornbread ? How about a Breadmaker ?


simple meals would be nice. the icebox should keep stuff for a weekend, especially if the meat starts out frozen. canned stuff for longer periods, i would assume. not much of a fisherman, since i grew up, but i guess that's an option. don't need an oven. just a few burners.

something for dinner or lunch or breakfast for a day on the water, a weekend, a week, a time period living on board. i have the galley space so i'd like to be able to cook real meals, if i like; by which i mean meat and a side dish.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

olson34 said:


> These cooking stove discussions seem to produce enough "heat" to brown up some croissants. (sigh...)
> 
> One little fact that is missing from several replies is the amount of heat one can get from a burner for any given fuel source. Note that a 5250 BTU burner (in my Origo 6000 range) heats your food the same as any other burner rated for about the same BTU's.
> Matters not whether it burns alcohol, Kero, diesel, or electrons.
> ...


yes please. the more i learn the closer i get to deciding that path.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I have owned kerosene (Primus), alcohol, and propane stoves. For me propane wins hands down. I have had a Force 10 3 burner with oven stove since the late 90's and wouldn't give it up. I live aboard and cook at least one meal a day. I use the oven often, like tonight. The times I have cooked in an apartment make me realize how fast and efficient propane is compared to electric which I find very frustrating with its lack of speed and response. 

As Christian posted propane is the fuel of the world away from North America - it is plentiful and inexpensive, as well as being one of the cleanest burning fuels without odor.

Any fuel can be dangerous if mis-handled - if not it wouldn't burn. I look at any fuel as safe when used properly, some are just not as nice to use as others.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

I sleep very well knowing there are no explosive fumes/gases anywhere in my cabin... 

I do have a carbon monoxide alarm and figure it's useful should another boat next to me is out of limits on the gases... my only fear is that while I can sleep at night the boat in the next slip may be a time bomb just awaiting the flip of a switch or automatic start-on of some electrical item to have a bad day for everyone else.

I don't get it... I run a 1500 watt induction stove on 1-2 batteries charging from shore power/small solar panel/outboard motor and I have the Honda 2000 generator... I've never used the Honda generator to use the induction stove as the batteries handle the electrical needs more than what I need... the stove is used but maybe 10-20 minutes at the most to heat up items... even my 700 watt microwave uses inverter power easily without running down the batteries... I think many people are misinformed about the usage of electrical appliances. The induction oven is so efficient I almost have to laugh about it... people should have been using this decades ago... sort of the 'compact fluorescent lights' over 'incandescent bulbs'... no comparison! 

Now the induction oven requires a 'pure sine wave' output for it to work... I originally had a 2000 watt unit but have upgraded to the 3000 watt unit as I now have extra power for other items... the inverter is shut off when not needed to avoid draining the batteries which is a small draw anyway. 

Who knows the induction oven/inverter it might both be dead when I get up to Seattle to check the boat out this summer.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Guitarguy, the only problem with an induction stove is that if there's an EMP event, your stove will be broken. (VBG)

More seriously...ask any working chef if they'd replace ALL the burners in their place of business with induction, or any kind of electric. Which is why we sometimes hear people say "Now you're cooking with gas!"


I see I'm not the only one who thinks Forespar have been drinking the wrong Kool-Aide. A 5000BTU burner may be fine for boiling a pint of water, but there's no such thing as an "extra hot" 5000 BTU burner. Portable stoves, camping stoves, gasoline, propane or whatever, are easily found at 11,000 btu and that's where a "normal" stove burner comes in around. FWIW.

If anyone heard the news earlier this month, two small apartment buildings in NYC blew up and were leveled due to a gas leak. One of the survivors was interviewed on the Nooze and said folks had been smelling a strong gas smell for TWO DAYS. But none of them bothered calling the gas company until minutes before the buildings blew up.

That's not a gas explosion, that a Darwin Award Winner.

The gas companies in NYC, like most urban gas companies, usually will have a repair crew out in less than 1/2 hour when someone calls to report a gas smell. Two buildings and multiple lives lost, because everyone in them was too busy? stupid? to make a phone call for two days. (Which the Nooze were, ahem, gracious enough not to point out.)


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

hellosailor said:


> Guitarguy, the only problem with an induction stove is that if there's an EMP event, your stove will be broken. (VBG)
> 
> More seriously...ask any working chef if they'd replace ALL the burners in their place of business with induction, or any kind of electric. Which is why we sometimes hear people say "Now you're cooking with gas!"
> 
> ...


I promise not to cruise in a military zone running EMP testing... the other known EMP blasts would be a nuclear device going off... promise to be far away from that... and if that happened we have far more problems than my induction oven failing.  

Many benefits of people switching to the induction units first and foremost the energy savings of these ovens over a comparable electric burner unit, the savings not only to the user but also the convenience, safety factor over electric/gas units, I could go on and on!

No one knows if it was a Darwin Award winner and perhaps innocent people were hurt in this accident... is there a Darwin Award of sailors who blow up their boats as well? :laugher :laugher


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yes its often called the bonhead award jajaja

seriously there are many choices...pick your medicine and be happy and safe

I hated induction units when looked at as a chef...but looking at it for the pros, simplicity and the like they are great but do have their faults...

you need really good pans...and they have to be FLAT so sautee pans and sautesses dont really work well


thock expensive copper coated bottoms are almost a must for induction units

in cooking school there were those that loved them(they are great for stews soups etc sinde they dont have hot spots and cook evenly) but for certain things they arent that great

but for a guy on a boat who wants simplicity Im all for it

now being on the hook or cruising I still havent seen a boat use it as a primary stove...

I still think its a lot of battery juice for most cruisers...get some bad weather and no solar panel juice and your out of luck if your out of gas with the genny

and cooking is kind of peacefull on boats and running a genny just to cook isnt my cup of tea

now in a marina with shorepower all good


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Well, it is certainly possible that no one even smelled gas until the single "too late" call. The guy they interviewed certainly could have been trying to set up Con Ed for not responding. Except, no one called until it was too late. (Which is why the gas companies record all their calls, and send trucks out so fast. Way cheaper than paying for explosions.)

Enough gas to level two buildings, usually would mean that everyone in them had a chance to smell it and make a phone call. And I'll bet Mrs. O'Leary had no idea it could be a bad idea to leave her cow with a kerosene lantern, either?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

methane oh no!

I read somewhere that cows and us humans contribute more to global warming through methane(farts) than other types of pollution

it made me laugh and sad at the same time...its one thing or the other, dont know how true it all is but its just life

some things explode so be careful!

peace


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Christian... no one needs to run the genny while cooking... that could be done once sailing and away from the hook assuming the batteries need topping off... I've never had to since as quickly as the boat was back on shore power they charged up just fine or slowly topped off with my small solar panel... I really don't see the reaction many have if they've never used one. I'm not creating Paul Prudhomme's Creole recipes on the boat... mostly heating meals or simple boiling of rice/stews/soups... the occasional steaming of seafoods, etc.... all taking less than 4 minutes... water comes to boil in less than 1 minute with the induction cooker... watch it on Youtube.

I bought a nice set of pans to use with the unit but any cast iron skillet varieties will work... what will not work is copper/aluminum unless it has a steel bottom... they also sell a steel plate that the copper/aluminum pans sit on that will conduct the heat thereby letting you use conventional cookware, it's just one more item to carry onboard. Why?


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

christian.hess said:


> methane oh no!
> 
> I read somewhere that cows and us humans contribute more to global warming through methane(farts) than other types of pollution
> 
> ...


Ha ha ha... one ride through Compton, CA or through certain parts of Texas will have you gasping for air... this from experience many times driving highways I-5 and I-10. Methane... stay away!


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

captain jack said:


> simple meals would be nice. the icebox should keep stuff for a weekend, especially if the meat starts out frozen. canned stuff for longer periods, i would assume. not much of a fisherman, since i grew up, but i guess that's an option. don't need an oven. just a few burners.


A good icebox will go longer than a weekend. The one on our boat keeps a block of ice for 5 days. The cooler on our old boat didn't work very well, so we bought this Coleman that also lasts 4-5 days:
Amazon.com: Coleman 36-Quart Xtreme Cooler (Blue): Sports & [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@41X-02DIS5L

We use an Origo unpressurized alcohol stove and I wouldn't want anything else. It is reliable, simple, and effective. Last year during 7 weeks of cruising I went through about 1.5 gallons of fuel.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

guitarguy56 said:


> Christian... no one needs to run the genny while cooking... that could be done once sailing and away from the hook assuming the batteries need topping off... I've never had to since as quickly as the boat was back on shore power they charged up just fine or slowly topped off with my small solar panel... I really don't see the reaction many have if they've never used one. I'm not creating Paul Prudhomme's Creole recipes on the boat... mostly heating meals or simple boiling of rice/stews/soups... the occasional steaming of seafoods, etc.... all taking less than 4 minutes... water comes to boil in less than 1 minute with the induction cooker... watch it on Youtube.
> 
> I bought a nice set of pans to use with the unit but any cast iron skillet varieties will work... what will not work is copper/aluminum unless it has a steel bottom... they also sell a steel plate that the copper/aluminum pans sit on that will conduct the heat thereby letting you use conventional cookware, it's just one more item to carry onboard. Why?


my express point was for those that CANT get back to the dock...thats all bud

Im very familiar with the induction cookers...like I mentioned before I got into HUGE arguments with other chefs in the cooking schools I was attending in spain...

HEAVY ARGUMENTS both for and against

jajaja


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

guitarguy56 said:


> Ha ha ha... one ride through Compton, CA or through certain parts of Texas will have you gasping for air... this from experience many times driving highways I-5 and I-10. Methane... stay away!


I lived and worked in stockton ca,

pass through lodi, modesto and I foregt some other places and its deadly

BUT YOU GET USED TO IT

jajajaja


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Alex W said:


> A good icebox will go longer than a weekend. The one on our boat keeps a block of ice for 5 days. The cooler on our old boat didn't work very well, so we bought this Coleman that also lasts 4-5 days:
> Amazon.com: Coleman 36-Quart Xtreme Cooler (Blue): Sports & Outdoors
> 
> We use an Origo unpressurized alcohol stove and I wouldn't want anything else. It is reliable, simple, and effective. Last year during 7 weeks of cruising I went through about 1.5 gallons of fuel.


its great stateside I loved mine on my folkboat

the issue is it becomes obsolete in some countries and not possible to use unless you want to throw away your $$$

its prohibitely expensive in some countries to use as your sole cooking fuel

cheers


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## Brewgyver (Dec 31, 2011)

mitchbrown said:


> Propane low pressure regulators are factory set at 3 PSI. if you can blow 100 times more PSI than that, id have to say you have been practicing.


(snippage)
Actually, the standard delivery pressure in a low pressure propane (LPG) system is 10.5-11 inches water column, which is about 0.375 psi, and is less than twice the pressure of residential Natural Gas. This is the standard for all residential LPG appliances, inlcluding furnaces, ranges, clothes dryers, water heaters, and permanently installed outdoor barbeques. Perhaps more than a typicla human is capable of supplying with lung power, but very low pressure, nonetheless.

Higher pressure LPG regulators are used on high output burners *for outdoor use only*, such as turkey cookers.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

christian.hess said:


> its great stateside I loved mine on my folkboat


The thread starter (captain jack, right?) has a Cal 2-27. I don't think he'll be doing a lot of international offshore cruising on that boat.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

ok

dont see what the boat has to do with cooking fuel type

you win I guess


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

Alex W said:


> The thread starter (captain jack, right?) has a Cal 2-27. I don't think he'll be doing a lot of international offshore cruising on that boat.


Actually, his boat appears to be a pop-top Cal 27, an earlier model than the 2-27. But, your point still stands.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Think what type of stove/oven has a lot to do with type/size of boat and intended use. If you are out cruising electric not a good option. Just like they are hard to cook in a dirt home with because surface/pot doesn't respond immediately to change in setting like with gas they are dangerous to crew. You do up some coffee before coming on deck for a night watch. Boat is red light mode. You put the coffee maker in the sink and leave some empty cups on the counter. Second crew is setting up a snack. He/she puts something or a hand on hot electric stove. Ouch!!. Yes the pot holders stay hot on a gas stove but the whole surface of an electric stove stays hot. Hard enough to bake on a boat. Even harder with electric stove. Usually do this on calm, cloudy days No solar. No wind generator. Listening to the diesel generator kills the day. Instead of listening to tunes and smelling bread baking with your stomach growling your listening to a d-mn engine.
Alcohol/kero just doesn't get hot enough and quickly enough to match the flip the switch, click ,turn and hold for a couple of seconds. When doing watches being able to cook or heat something nice without fuss or bother is a big deal. If the AP and frig are running conserving Ah is wise. Come on folks - for over all ease gas is the way to go. In just about anyplace if there is a garage filling cars there is a good likelihood they can fill a tank with propane. You walk up with a tank you don't even need to speak the language. Risk with minimal attention is low. Guess with rats "When the lord comes calling you got to move". Sure you can use a crockpot for a full meal but I have no place where it will stay still except wedged on the gimbaled propane stove so it's off the boat with a pressure cooker to replace it.
?Are the Wallas systems gimbaled? Only one I ever saw was done was fixed in place but was on a commercial fish boat
? Induction systems sound nice but do they hold up in marine environs?
Sorry - just needed to mouth off. My bad


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## Boredop (Feb 21, 2013)

Did you know that water can cause drowning? Nope, won't have that on my boat. Too dangerous.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Alex W said:


> The thread starter (captain jack, right?) has a Cal 2-27. I don't think he'll be doing a lot of international offshore cruising on that boat.


almost right. it's a cal 27 but not a 2-27. mine was the first incarnation of the cal 27; the pop top version. all three cal 27s are completely different.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> ok
> 
> dont see what the boat has to do with cooking fuel type
> 
> you win I guess


i would suppose that he is saying the fact that alcohol is not readily available or economically prudent outside of the U.S. is unimportant as i probably wouldn't be blue water sailing in this boat.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Boredop said:


> Did you know that water can cause drowning? Nope, won't have that on my boat. Too dangerous.


i kind of thought the purpose of a boat was to keep water out. otherwise, you'd be swimming ( or drowning ).


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## Boredop (Feb 21, 2013)

I guess the point becomes that there are a variety of safety hazards onboard. You could sink, catch fire, receive a blow to the head, inhale toxic gases or choke on a olive. I think the danger of propane is very low compared to the other dangers onboard. Propane has a distinctive indicating smell and with certain precautions can be handled safely. An accidental jibe because of a wind shift has more potential to injure myself or my guests. If the world scares you, stay home.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

captain jack said:


> i would suppose that he is saying the fact that alcohol is not readily available or economically prudent outside of the U.S. is unimportant as i probably wouldn't be blue water sailing in this boat.


I get that bud...sprry if it sounded like a snip

get whatever fuel you have best access too and enjoy the most...you have options up there so that is great for you

I just didnt see what the boat model had to do with anything but obviously if youre not ever going to travel with the boat at least overseas then yeah no issues with alcohol

having said that I posted before that even when I was in berkeley not every place had alcohol...and west marine was way expensive and it was more of a hassle than simple propane

for whatever thats worth

hope you find a cooking method that suits and pleases you

its very apparent that you have OPTIONS


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

outbound said:


> Think what type of stove/oven has a lot to do with type/size of boat and intended use. If you are out cruising electric not a good option. Just like they are hard to cook in a dirt home with because surface/pot doesn't respond immediately to change in setting like with gas they are dangerous to crew. You do up some coffee before coming on deck for a night watch. Boat is red light mode. You put the coffee maker in the sink and leave some empty cups on the counter. Second crew is setting up a snack. He/she puts something or a hand on hot electric stove. Ouch!!. Yes the pot holders stay hot on a gas stove but the whole surface of an electric stove stays hot. Hard enough to bake on a boat. Even harder with electric stove. Usually do this on calm, cloudy days No solar. No wind generator. Listening to the diesel generator kills the day. Instead of listening to tunes and smelling bread baking with your stomach growling your listening to a d-mn engine.


Outbound... I'll take it you've never been around or exposed to induction stoves or ovens... let's just say I can place my hand directly on the stove surface _*while*_ it is running about the only thing that will happen is smearing the black onyx surface with my hand oils... try that with a regular electric stove and I understand how your second shift crew would be burnt. Doesn't and will never happen on the surface of an induction stove... So in reality your rant doesn't apply here. As I mentioned my next boat will be entirely induction stove/oven and I see marine units are already hitting the market... but why wait? As mentioned I have my Honda 2000 but never ever ran it to make a meal using the induction stove. This is after all on a 25 foot boat... why the criticism if it should plainly work on a much larger boat with generators charging the batteries and hefty solar panels charging, and Torquedoes up the rear charging away?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I dont think Im criticising, at least initially I mentioned it be great no nonsense system for our boats

BUT for cruising its still too much of a draw it has the same drawacks that an electric inboard would for long term cruising

you need a lot of panels and wind power to make it a 3 times a day source for cooking but Id be glad to see some low draw ones in the market soon


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Out of mild curiosity, what is the amp draw on an induction stove-top? I am assuming that this set up would mean an electric oven too? I like my propane (but then again, I cook with gas at home). Never once have I had a flare-up like when I had an alcohol stove and singed the cabin curtains. We used to have a paraffin trawler lantern in the cabin but got tired of the oily film and soot on the overhead if it wasn’t adjusted properly. But, I can see where propane or electric might not be practical for Jack’s boat and budget. Get what you can afford and take proper precautions and enjoy your boat.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

George, 

I'm not an electrician. I believe with a typical 110v, 15 amp circuit, the absolute maximum deliverable wattage would be around 1800w. I believe that's why most of the portable units on the market are 1500 watts. I hope I've stated that correctly. One would need a dedicated circuit for each 1500 watt unit.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

GeorgeB said:


> Out of mild curiosity, what is the amp draw on an induction stove-top? I am assuming that this set up would mean an electric oven too? I like my propane (but then again, I cook with gas at home). Never once have I had a flare-up like when I had an alcohol stove and singed the cabin curtains. We used to have a paraffin trawler lantern in the cabin but got tired of the oily film and soot on the overhead if it wasn't adjusted properly. But, I can see where propane or electric might not be practical for Jack's boat and budget. Get what you can afford and take proper precautions and enjoy your boat.


George... it sounds like you're a little curious and you should be. My induction stove is super efficient... why?... one simple reason... it draws only the amount of electricity it needs in an instant to heat water or whatever... uses only the power it needs and nothing else... unlike an electric stove with resistance heating it must warm up... ever plug in a soldering iron waiting for it to heat up or an iron, etc.... that is the resistance element heating up and must be at full power to get to proper heat... that is wasting a lot of wattage right there... not so with the induction stove... it's electronic and turns on and off as needed to maintain the temperature.... your electric stove is on all the time at at set control timing.

That really is the difference... it uses very little wattage!

And to Tempest it ran on a 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter but I wanted power for other items so exchanged it with a 3000 watt pure sine wave inverter... works beautifully if may say so. My added plus is I'm not buying $12.00 a gallon of alcohol or the danger of an alcohol spill or fire!

Jack would need an alcohol stove or whatever he likes... my induction stove is not the cheapy units you see advertised on TV and is a chef/restaurant heavy duty quality unit and wired to the inverter with heavy 30 amp cabling... and inverter cables to the batteries are marine grade heavy duty cables. Not cheap for the faint of heart on a budget... the inverter alone was almost $800.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

So, am I calculating this correctly? at 1,500 watts, my draw would be 125 amps? So a simple 15 minute meal would "cost" my electical system 31 Amp hours? This would certainly tax my two 4D house bank.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

GeorgeB said:


> So, am I calculating this correctly? at 1,500 watts, my draw would be 125 amps? So a simple 15 minute meal would "cost" my electical system 31 Amp hours? This would certainly tax my two 4D house bank.


Math is wrong... it should be 1500/60 minutes or 25 watts per minute... not 1500 watts per minute... appliances are rated per hour usage... so for one hour of the induction stove use it will use 1500 watts... problem is it's not running 1 hour... but 5-10 minutes at the most... so 5*25 = 125 watts power used... 10 minutes is 250 watts, etc... pretty simple... there are numerous power/wattage calculators that will tell you based on how much power the appliance is using... your figure would mean a 1500 watt heater in the cabin is also using 121 amps too... how can that be George? Shore power is only 30 amps!

You must be asking how much amps is it using... 1500 watts/ 110 volts = 13.6 amps per hour... so based on that 5 minutes usage is: 1.136 amps... 10 minutes of usage is: 2.272 amps.

That is the total power being drawn from the battery +/-.

Clear now?


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Guitarguy, when I do the math your way, I still come up with 31 Amp hours per 15 minute "meal". I am not so much concerned when I am tied up to the dock but for the times I am "off the grid". Like outbound, my biggest headache is those at sea days when my navigation system, radio and lights are a major consumer of my house bank. for example, my sensors "cost" me 48 AH per 24 hours, and the chartplotter another 60. My housebank only has a usable capacity of 150 - 160 AHs and my solar panel isn't the most efficient with the boat rolling and yawing.


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## Boredop (Feb 21, 2013)

I think your math is wrong guitar guy. The amperage on the DC side of the inverter is going to be a little higher.
Georgeb is correct.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Boredop said:


> I guess the point becomes that there are a variety of safety hazards onboard. You could sink, catch fire, receive a blow to the head, inhale toxic gases or choke on a olive. I think the danger of propane is very low compared to the other dangers onboard. Propane has a distinctive indicating smell and with certain precautions can be handled safely. An accidental jibe because of a wind shift has more potential to injure myself or my guests. If the world scares you, stay home.


a person could use that argument against a person that thinks a motor is a necessary piece of safety equipment on a sailboat. do you happen to have a motor?

and, i'm willing to bet you have the usual boat load of technological gadgets on your boat. sailing without GPS and all the rest just wouldn't be safe, would it?

but, because i want to choose the safest fuel to use in my bloody stove that means i am too scared to sail so i better pack up and go home?

to quote don casey: "On a boat, LPG is also, *by far*, the most dangerous cooking fuel. "

check it out:
i built my own chopper. it has no front brakes. no rear shocks. a rake of 50 degrees. and a right hand suicide shifter. i love to ride at beak neck speed on twisty roads. i'm not exactly a timid guy. however, i'm not dumb enough to stick a hand grenade up my butt, with the pin pulled, and ride down the road hoping my sphincter can hold the lever in so it doesn't blow my a*# off.

give me a break.


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## Boredop (Feb 21, 2013)

Or does this have to do with your girlfriend again? Scared she is going to blow up the boat? Come to think of it, there are a lot of hard surfaces around too, better get out the foam padding.....


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

GeorgeB said:


> Guitarguy, when I do the math your way, I still come up with 31 Amp hours per 15 minute "meal". I am not so much concerned when I am tied up to the dock but for the times I am "off the grid". Like outbound, my biggest headache is those at sea days when my navigation system, radio and lights are a major consumer of my house bank. for example, my sensors "cost" me 48 AH per 24 hours, and the chartplotter another 60. My housebank only has a usable capacity of 150 - 160 AHs and my solar panel isn't the most efficient with the boat rolling and yawing.


George... let's look at it again... 1500 watt appliance running 1 hour will be 1.5 kwatts per hour... a 1500 watt appliance running on 110 volts is using 13.6 amps per hour... ask any electrical engineer, electrician, etc.... the usage of watts drops as the appliance is reduced in time per minute.

Here is a simple calculator:

Calculate the Costs to Use Electricity - WebMath

add the 1500 watts and the number of mintues... see if you don't get the same answers I shown you... you may have to convert kwatt hours to minutes to get the actual watt/minute usage.

Does it make a little more sense now?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> I get that bud...sprry if it sounded like a snip
> 
> get whatever fuel you have best access too and enjoy the most...you have options up there so that is great for you
> 
> ...


i wouldn't say you sounded snippy. just like you were feeling a bit attacked  annd it's no wonder. this thread has, like so many threads, gotten a bit hostile from time to time. i know we all have a passion for sailing but i'm not quite sure why that almost always has to turn into conflict and hoatility any time there is more than one opinion voiced.

everyone has an opinion and the purpose of threads like this is to hear as many of those opinions as possible to help in making an educaed decision. not sure why the multitude of opinions means hurt feelings or hurled insults( you know, because i'm obviously too chicken s%$# to sail because i want the safest fuel possible so it's not my boat i find burned up at the marina).

anyhow, you are right. i have learned i have a number of options to choose from....and that is good.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

guitarguy56 said:


> Math is wrong... it should be 1500/60 minutes or 25 watts per minute... not 1500 watts per minute...


Watts do not have a time component, they are an instantaneous consumption. Watt/hours have a time component. None of your math makes any sense because of this mistake.

The pair of group 24 batteries in my house bank are rated to 160AH total, but I can only draw them down about halfway to get good service life. That is 80AH at 12 volts, which is 960 watt hours.

It is easy to compute power consumption for an ideal system. It takes 4180 joules to raise 1 liter of water 1 degree C. If the water in my boat's tanks is at 15C (60F) and I want to raise it to 100C (boiling) then I need 4180 * 85 joules, which is about 100 watt hours (98.69 to be exact). No system is 100% efficient, this is the best possible result that you can get.

1 liter isn't a lot of water. Making a basic pasta dinner with 4 liters of water and a half liter of sauce on the ideal induction heater would consume about 450 watt hours, or almost half of my house battery system. It would take my 30 watt solar panel 15 hours at noon-sun (or 3 Seattle summer days) to recover from that use assuming an ideal battery system. Again, nothing is ideal.

I don't see how using an electric stove on a sailboat makes any sense unless the boat is mostly used at dock and is tied into the power grid.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

guitarguy56 said:


> Outbound... I'll take it you've never been around or exposed to induction stoves or ovens... let's just say I can place my hand directly on the stove surface _*while*_ it is running about the only thing that will happen is smearing the black onyx surface with my hand oils... try that with a regular electric stove and I understand how your second shift crew would be burnt. Doesn't and will never happen on the surface of an induction stove... So in reality your rant doesn't apply here. As I mentioned my next boat will be entirely induction stove/oven and I see marine units are already hitting the market... but why wait? As mentioned I have my Honda 2000 but never ever ran it to make a meal using the induction stove. This is after all on a 25 foot boat... why the criticism if it should plainly work on a much larger boat with generators charging the batteries and hefty solar panels charging, and Torquedoes up the rear charging away?


that's one heck of a safety feature.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Jack, given your boat, budget, and aspirations, I'd say go with the alcohol stove. Why go through the expense and space to put in propane? All fuel is dangerous to one degree or another and as you can see by this discussion, the differences are getting down to hair splitting. Boatus says propane is safe as evidenced through the claims they payout. I have owned boats with alcohol for 13 years and propane for 15. I had one fire with alcohol and so far, none with the propane. My experience may not be everybody's. But I don't see it as the fuel for you. Nor do I see coal as your fuel (the cooking fuel of choice for over a hundred years before kero took over).


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Guitarguy, my boat runs on 12 volt DC so I divide watts by 12V to get amps, not 110V as you would for shore power. Do I assume correctly that these stoves only work on 110VAC? Then I would also have to calculate the loss going through the inverter. Is there an induction oven too? What is the efficiency of that unit?


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## Boredop (Feb 21, 2013)

captain jack said:


> i wouldn't say you sounded snippy. just like you were feeling a bit attacked  annd it's no wonder. this thread has, like so many threads, gotten a bit hostile from time to time. i know we all have a passion for sailing but i'm not quite sure why that almost always has to turn into conflict and hoatility any time there is more than one opinion voiced.
> 
> everyone has an opinion and the purpose of threads like this is to hear as many of those opinions as possible to help in making an educaed decision. not sure why the multitude of opinions means hurt feelings or hurled insults( you know, because i'm obviously too chicken s%$# to sail because i want the safest fuel possible so it's not my boat i find burned up at the marina).
> 
> anyhow, you are right. i have learned i have a number of options to choose from....and that is good.


A professionally installed propane system will not leave your boat burned up at the marina. 
Throw a couple of rusted out 1# bombs in the lazerette and you might have a different outcome. 
A properly installed system has a shutoff at the propane locker that is vented to the outside (preferably from the bottom)
When the solenoid is shut off there is no gas to be had inside the cabin regardless of what has happened to the lines. 
Propane explosion while boat us unattended at the marina, negligence is most likely the culprit. 
Also, is this actually an explosion caused by propane, or a simple fire due to something like poor electrical? 
Maybe the safest course of action is just not to cook onboard?


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

4.180 Joules for 1 gram of water, 4180 joules for 1 liter (1000 grams) of water. I'll go correct my post too.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Boredop said:


> Or does this have to do with your girlfriend again? Scared she is going to blow up the boat? Come to think of it, there are a lot of hard surfaces around too, better get out the foam padding.....


oh, yes. that's right. because i was thinking of fabricating a jib boom and going self tacking i was just destined to be a powerboater before long. funny. it's been 18 years, sailing, so far and i've never even used a motor on a boat, before.

i'd love to know why you are so easily offended with how i consider outfitting my own boat? what's it to you? i'm not telling you how you should set your boat up. you don't hear me implying that you are a non-sailing pansy if you use a motor to leave and return to a dock. i figure it's your business. but, obviously, anything i consider about my boat IS enough of your business for you to take offense and fling fairly blatant insults about my fitness to sail.

no. it has nothing to do with safety while i am on the boat. i figure i am competent enough to handle that. i am worried about getting that phone call from the marina. i already saw one black and burned out shell of a boat at the marina, this year. i don't want them to call and tell me that mine has met that fate.

again, i think it's foolish to totally ignore the fact that propane is the most dangerous cooking fuel on a boat. i think it's just a point of wisdom to explore the options. you know...not just be a sheep and do the same thing everyone else does because everyone else is doing it.

i have to wonder, are you threatened by people who consider different options than you or just easily butthurt if everyone doesn't automatically do things the way you do?

loads of boats have used, and do use, jib booms and self tacking jibs. that's a fairly traditional set up. lots of people use fuels other than propane. does it also bother you that there are people converting their 'perfectly good' bermuda sloops to junk rigs? do facts like these keep you awake at night? is that why keep popping up in my threads telling me i don't have gonads enough to sail?

i can't tell you how many times sailors in bigger boats have told me they thought i was crazy to be sailing my little dinghy out in wind as heavy as i often do....just think what they'd think if they knew that i don't know how to swim. but, you're right. i'm too timid to sail. i better sell all three of my sailboats.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Alex W said:


> 4.180 Joules for 1 gram of water, 4180 joules for 1 liter (1000 grams) of water. I'll go correct my post too.


Yes, I figured it out..deleted my post..thanks


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

GeorgeB said:


> Jack, given your boat, budget, and aspirations, I'd say go with the alcohol stove. Why go through the expense and space to put in propane? All fuel is dangerous to one degree or another and as you can see by this discussion, the differences are getting down to hair splitting. Boatus says propane is safe as evidenced through the claims they payout. I have owned boats with alcohol for 13 years and propane for 15. I had one fire with alcohol and so far, none with the propane. My experience may not be everybody's. But I don't see it as the fuel for you. Nor do I see coal as your fuel (the cooking fuel of choice for over a hundred years before kero took over).


coal. boy that would take up some space on board and cause some real soot.

actually, if i was to decide to go propane i'd want an outside tank locker and i really don't see the room for that, on my boat. it would just take up too much space. i do think that pressurized alcohol will be my best bet, as you said.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

outbound said:


> Are the Wallas systems gimbaled? Only one I ever saw was done was fixed in place but was on a commercial fish boat


There is one gimbaled Wallas but you lose the heat function. There is no blower lid as when the lid is up the stove tips back. Pot holders are available for all Wallas stovetops.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

guitarguy56 said:


> Math is wrong... it should be 1500/60 minutes or 25 watts per minute... not 1500 watts per minute... appliances are rated per hour usage... so for one hour of the induction stove use it will use 1500 watts... problem is it's not running 1 hour... but 5-10 minutes at the most... so 5*25 = 125 watts power used... 10 minutes is 250 watts, etc... pretty simple... there are numerous power/wattage calculators that will tell you based on how much power the appliance is using... your figure would mean a 1500 watt heater in the cabin is also using 121 amps too... how can that be George? Shore power is only 30 amps!
> 
> You must be asking how much amps is it using... 1500 watts/ 110 volts = 13.6 amps per hour... so based on that 5 minutes usage is: 1.136 amps... 10 minutes of usage is: 2.272 amps.
> 
> ...


Yes, 1500 watts AC is 13.6 amps AC. But to produce it with the inefficiencies of an inverter uses 150 amps DC from the batteries. Divide the hour by 6 for the 10 minute usage and the DC use is 25 amps.

For the 15 minute meal divide 150 by 4 and the DC draw is 37.5 amps DC.

My Engel fridge uses less than that in 24 hours. Not a good choice for a cruiser in a small boat.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

GeorgeB said:


> Guitarguy, my boat runs on 12 volt DC so I divide watts by 12V to get amps, not 110V as you would for shore power. Do I assume correctly that these stoves only work on 110VAC? Then I would also have to calculate the loss going through the inverter. Is there an induction oven too? What is the efficiency of that unit?


Ok George... I only have one induction stove and no oven.

Here is how I see it at the battery... 1500 watts into the battery is 150 amps per hour... 150 amp/hr... so 150 amps/60 minutes= 2.5 amp/minute so 5 minutes equals 12.5 amps multiplied by 12 volts = 150 watts... 10 minutes gives you 300 watts... this not including inverter efficiency or factor which would alter the above.

The stove of course is 110 vac... loss though the inverter may be .5 amps +/-

Point being is the wattage and battery usage is not what many people think.. I have two batteries in the boat to handle this power and they weren't cheap.

I used this stove throughout my cruising while using the boat... not like I was cooking 4 times a day! I had no problem with of discharging the batteries and the solar panel had no problem topping off the use... I wouldn't take the boat across an ocean using this method of cooking on this size of a boat but for coastal cruising as I did up in Puget Sound I had no issues.

A larger solar panel and cruising outside of Puget Sound with many sunny days and the stove could be used for more than 5-10 minutes...

Alex... I think you need to check out the calculator to see that time component in minutes!


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

mitiempo said:


> There is one gimbaled Wallas but you lose the heat function. There is no blower lid as when the lid is up the stove tips back. Pot holders are available for all Wallas stovetops.


i have to say that i really liked the wallace diesel stove. if it was affordable, for me, i'd have gone that route. i could have put the tank where the old gas tank is, now.


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## Boredop (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm not telling anybody to do anything, I'm just suggesting this level of paranoia is absurd and if you can't handle a little risk maybe having a boat is a bad idea. Maybe stick to stuffed animals and saftey scissors.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Boredop said:


> I'm not telling anybody to do anything, I'm just suggesting this level of paranoia is absurd and if you can't handle a little risk maybe having a boat is a bad idea. Maybe stick to stuffed animals and saftey scissors.


paranoia? it's a simple question about cook fuel options and safety. there are a lot of articles and threads on the web about the cooking fuel safety issue. that would indicate a lot of other people are also 'paranoid' about that issue, i suppose.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

captain jack said:


> i have to say that i really liked the wallace diesel stove. if it was affordable, for me, i'd have gone that route. i could have put the tank where the old gas tank is, now.


With a Wallas you can either draw from the main tank on a diesel powered boat or use a portable tank. Most often the portable is in a locker below the stove. It is sealed and safe.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Boredop let's dial it back. There's been good discussion here of the pros and cons of various cooking methods and fuel sources. Why get in the weeds..


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

This thread is getting a bit nasty. Maybe the subject should be changed to something a bit less contentious - like anchors or maybe steel boats.....


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

mitiempo said:


> With a Wallas you can either draw from the main tank on a diesel powered boat or use a portable tank. Most often the portable is in a locker below the stove. It is sealed and safe.


i definately thought it sounded cool. especially the fact that it cooks and provides heat. multipurpose. plus, diesel is easy to come by. but don't have 2K to spend on a cook top. if i did, though....


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## Boredop (Feb 21, 2013)

I have very strong options on anchors


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

mitiempo said:


> This thread is getting a bit nasty. Maybe the subject should be changed to something a bit less contentious - like anchors or maybe steel boats.....


for my part, i apologize for letting myself get caught up in that.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

wow! i had requested a price quote from wallace on the price of a cooktop for my boat, just out of curiosity. with all the needed equipment, it was $3,337. i think i'll stick with the origo or campmate. can anyone tell me if there is any reason why the campmate is less advisable that the origo? is the price difference one of brand name or quality?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I think you mean CookMate. It is a less expensive copy of an Origo.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

mitiempo said:


> I think you mean CookMate. It is a less expensive copy of an Origo.


:laugher oh. yeah. you're right. that's what i mean. is there a quality difference? you know, sometimes the difference in price of an item is just name recognition and hasd nothing to do with the value of the actual item. other times, it does show inferior quality.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

The CookMate is a good stove.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I have the Origo 4000 on my Pearson and my friend's Yankee 30 has the equivalent CookMate. I previously had a boat with the Origo 3000.

The CookMate has a few more sharp edges on the inside and the latch for holding it closed shoots apart into 4 pieces if you unscrew it, where the one on the Origo is completely captive. Functionally they are the same. For the slight extra cost I'd personally get the Origo, but if every penny matters then the CookMate is fine. You can pretty easily find a used Origo for half the price of a new CookMate.

guitarguy: You are dropping units left and right and treating amps at 12v the same as amps at 110v. The math doesn't work.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

GeorgeB said:


> So, am I calculating this correctly? at 1,500 watts, my draw would be 125 amps? So a simple 15 minute meal would "cost" my electical system 31 Amp hours? This would certainly tax my two 4D house bank.


Therein lies the problem with _*any*_ electric cooker on a boat.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

guitarguy56 said:


> Math is wrong... it should be 1500/60 minutes or 25 watts per minute... not 1500 watts per minute... ?


No, no, *NO*!! A Watt is a Volt*Amp (there are no units of time involved; unless you want to define Watts as joules/sec). So 1500W = 12.5V*120A. At that rate a pair of Trojan 105 batteries will be 50% discharged in well less than 1 hour. Even a fairly quick meal will draw the average sailboat house bank down to or below its useful capacity. Two burners and/or three meals a day.....? You're either going to have to run the engine several hours a day or have a genset. Physics doesn't lie.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

mitiempo said:


> The CookMate is a good stove.


thanks. that's good to know. you can get a two burner one for a really good price.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Alex W said:


> I have the Origo 4000 on my Pearson and my friend's Yankee 30 has the equivalent CookMate. I previously had a boat with the Origo 3000.
> 
> The CookMate has a few more sharp edges on the inside and the latch for holding it closed shoots apart into 4 pieces if you unscrew it, where the one on the Origo is completely captive. Functionally they are the same. For the slight extra cost I'd personally get the Origo, but if every penny matters then the CookMate is fine. You can pretty easily find a used Origo for half the price of a new CookMate.


good advice


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> No, no, *NO*!! A Watt is a Volt*Amp (there are no units of time involved; unless you want to define Watts as joules/sec). So 1500W = 12.5V*120A. At that rate a pair of Trojan 105 batteries will be 50% discharged in well less than 1 hour. Even a fairly quick meal will draw the average sailboat house bank down to or below its useful capacity. Two burners and/or three meals a day.....? You're either going to have to run the engine several hours a day or have a genset. Physics doesn't lie.


while you guys are discussing electrical appliances on a boat, someone previously referred to microwave use on a boat. i had never considered that because i figuered the the energy requirements would be too great. out of curiosity ( i wouldn't want to actually use up the extra space ), how practical is microwave use on a boat? as far as battery usage, i mean.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

guitarguy56 said:


> George... let's look at it again... 1500 watt appliance running 1 hour will be 1.5 kwatts per hour... a 1500 watt appliance running on 110 volts is using 13.6 amps per hour...


NO. One hour at a current of 1.5kW is 1.5kWh (1.5 kilowatt-hours)



guitarguy56 said:


> ...ask any electrical engineer, electrician, etc....


 Be my guest



guitarguy56 said:


> ...the usage of watts drops as the appliance is reduced in time per minute.
> 
> Here is a simple calculator:
> 
> Calculate the Costs to Use Electricity - WebMath


 Use that calculator. 1500 Watts for one hour equals 1.5kWh (kilowatt-hours, NOT kilowatts per hour)



guitarguy56 said:


> ...add the 1500 watts and the number of mintues... see if you don't get the same answers I shown you... you may have to convert kwatt hours to minutes to get the actual watt/minute usage.
> 
> Does it make a little more sense now?


Maybe in your universe. On Earth, a Watt is a joule/sec or a volt-amp. Check any, _*ANY*_, freshman physics book, or even Wikipedia.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

captain jack said:


> while you guys are discussing electrical appliances on a boat, someone previously referred to microwave use on a boat. i had never considered that because i figured the the energy requirements would be too great. out of curiosity ( i wouldn't want to actually use up the extra space ), how practical is microwave use on a boat? as far as battery usage, i mean.


Microwaves can make sense on a boat. A lot more sense than an electric stove. Many boats have them. They do require an inverter though. They are not the main stove but an addition to whatever the main stove is. A microwave of say 1000 watts will use somewhere near 100 amps DC, but as it is only used for a very short period of time the total DC usage is pretty low. 5 minutes of use is about 8 amp hours.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

guitarguy56 said:


> Ok George... I only have one induction stove and no oven.
> 
> Here is how I see it at the battery... 1500 watts into the battery is 150 amps per hour... 150 amp/hr... so 150 amps/60 minutes= 2.5 amp/minute so 5 minutes equals 12.5 amps multiplied by 12 volts = 150 watts... 10 minutes gives you 300 watts... this not including inverter efficiency or factor which would alter the above.
> ....


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

mitiempo said:


> Microwaves can make sense on a boat. A lot more sense than an electric stove. Many boats have them. They do require an inverter though. They are not the main stove but an addition to whatever the main stove is. A microwave of say 1000 watts will use somewhere near 100 amps DC, but as it is only used for a very short period of time the total DC usage is pretty low. 5 minutes of use is about 8 amp hours.


thanks. i don't really have the galley space but i was curious.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

captain jack said:


> while you guys are discussing electrical appliances on a boat, someone previously referred to microwave use on a boat. i had never considered that because i figuered the the energy requirements would be too great. out of curiosity ( i wouldn't want to actually use up the extra space ), how practical is microwave use on a boat? as far as battery usage, i mean.


Look at the current draw. Even a small micro way will require more current than a small boat can easily provide. Almost all compact microwaves call for a 15A circuit. Even if you can get away with 10A, that's 10A at 120V, or 1200W. In other words, the draw on your boat's batteries would be about 100A at 12.5V. On big boats, with big battery banks and gensets, that's doable. On a 27-foot boat, not likely.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

captain jack said:


> coal. boy that would take up some space on board and cause some real soot.
> 
> actually, if i was to decide to go propane i'd want an outside tank locker and i really don't see the room for that, on my boat. it would just take up too much space. i do think that *pressurized* alcohol will be my best bet, as you said.


You mean *non*-pressurized alcohol, right?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> Look at the current draw. Even a small micro way will require more current than a small boat can easily provide. Almost all compact microwaves call for a 15A circuit. Even if you can get away with 10A, that's 10A at 120V, or 1200W. In other words, the draw on your boat's batteries would be about 100A at 12.5V. On big boats, with big battery banks and gensets, that's doable. On a 27-foot boat, not likely.


If a microwave is used sparingly, as they nearly always are, the DC amp usage is pretty low. An inverter is needed. But your 1200 watt example need not be that high. A small microwave at 700 watts AC will use about 70 amps DC through the inverter. 5 minutes of use to heat something up or make popcorn or whatever will use 70 divided by 12 or a bit less than 6 amps DC.

I have a 700 watt microwave on my 27' boat.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

mitiempo said:


> If a microwave is used sparingly, as they nearly always are, the DC amp usage is pretty low. An inverter is needed. But your 1200 watt example need not be that high. A small microwave at 700 watts AC will use about 70 amps DC through the inverter. 5 minutes of use to heat something up or make popcorn or whatever will use 70 divided by 12 or a bit less than 6 amps DC.
> 
> I have a 700 watt microwave on my 27' boat.


I think that the 700W figure is the power delivered by the oven, not the current draw. It may not require 1200W, but I would be surprised if it wasn't pretty close to 1kW. While it's true that a few minutes here and there wouldn't tax most house banks too much, it would still be a fairly large percentage of a daily electrical energy usage. At the dock, no biggie. While cruising,....? Of course, there is always the space issue. A second appliance for doing what can be done by the stove isn't usually what a small boat really needs. However, for a live aboard things might be a bit different.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

guitarguy56 said:


> Ok George... I only have one induction stove and no oven.
> 
> Here is how I see it at the battery... 1500 watts into the battery is 150 amps per hour... 150 amp/hr... so 150 amps/60 minutes= 2.5 amp/minute so 5 minutes equals 12.5 amps multiplied by 12 volts = 150 watts... 10 minutes gives you 300 watts... this not including inverter efficiency or factor which would alter the above.
> 
> The stove of course is 110 vac... loss though the inverter may be .5 amps +/-


The first part of this is basically correct. It should read "...1500 watts out of the inverter needs 150 amp draw from the batteries. 150 amps/60 minutes = 2.5 AH per minute so 5 minutes = 12.5 AH." The change to watts is not needed as DC is measured in amps and amp hours.

Inverter losses are higher - probably around 10%. The correct math is about 84 amps/1000 watts out of an inverter but I (and others) use the higher number - 100 amps - as both an easier number to work with and a way to include the losses.

And one other point. When you use 50 AH from a battery it takes more than 50 AH to replenish it. See Peukert for an explanation.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> I think that the 700W figure is the power delivered by the oven, not the current draw. It may not require 1200W, but I would be surprised if it wasn't pretty close to 1kW. While it's true that a few minutes here and there wouldn't tax most house banks too much, it would still be a fairly large percentage of a daily electrical energy usage. At the dock, no biggie. While cruising,....? Of course, there is always the space issue. A second appliance for doing what can be done by the stove isn't usually what a small boat really needs. However, for a live aboard things might be a bit different.


While I have not measured it the actual AC wattage would be higher on full power than the rated 700 watts. But even if it jumps to 80 or so amps it is still not much for a cruiser with a good battery bank and solar. I doubt you will find many boats over 30' in Mexico or the Caribbean cruising without a microwave on board.
And in a warm climate there is no cooler way to cook or heat up food than with a microwave.

I am thinking in terms of a liveaboard.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

mitiempo said:


> While I have not measured it the actual AC wattage would be higher on full power than the rated 700 watts. But even if it jumps to 80 or so amps it is still not much for a cruiser with a good battery bank and solar. I doubt you will find many boats over 30' in Mexico or the Caribbean cruising without a microwave on board.
> And in a warm climate there is no cooler way to cook or heat up food than with a microwave.
> 
> I am thinking in terms of a liveaboard.


Well, once you get into a 30' boat there is room for *lots* of things that the owner of a 27' boat can only dream about; particularly when the 27' boat in question is a pop-top Cal 27.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Is this small enough?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I didn't see anyone mention this yet. You are 55 times more likely to have an electrical fire aboard than a stove fire! 24 times greater risk of an engine fire. This concern over galley fuel is not ones primary risk. Get whatever stove you like and mange it properly. Propane or not.

Why Boats Catch Fire - Seaworthy - BoatUS


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## edmcctn (Mar 25, 2014)

I use a white gas camping stove. depressurize and stow between use gives me what I need. the heat provided heating up early morning coffee is a plus.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I didn't see anyone mention this yet. You are 55 times more likely to have an electrical fire aboard than a stove fire! 24 times greater risk of an engine fire. This concern over galley fuel is not ones primary risk. Get whatever stove you like and mange it properly. Propane or not.
> 
> Why Boats Catch Fire - Seaworthy - BoatUS


Interesting.

However, this is about fires, not explosions. I suppose the statistics includes galley fires caused by liquid (and solid) fuels. But if there is a propane leak, the result is not a fire but BOOOOM


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I think BoatUS is combining propane or at least they address it in their article. More telling is they attribute the decrease in stove fires to a decrease in alcohol stoves. 

“6) Stove - 1%
Stove fires appear to be less common (1%) than in the past, probably due to fewer alcohol stoves being installed on new boats. Still, alcohol can be a dangerous fuel; though it can’t explode, an alcohol flame is hard to see. One fire was started when a member tried to light the stove and gave up because he couldn’t see the flame. Unfortunately, he had succeeded, but didn’t realize it until he got a call from the fire department. Only one fire was started by propane; a portable stove fell off a counter and ignited a cushion.”

True story. Anyone of you familiar with the Sierra Nevada Mountains and Priest Grade? Priest is an original road (trail?) that went up to Groveland in the gold country. Very, very steep grade that lasts for five miles or more. Big signs on both ends prohibiting large trucks, vehicles with trailers and RVs. It is about 15-20 miles shorter than the “modern” road and cuts travel time considerably. On this particular day an RV driver decided to take the shortcut down and as forewarned, burnt out his brakes about halfway. Fortunately, he was able to use the hillside as a brake to stop his runaway vehicle instead of going over the cliff edge and certain death. The family evacuated safely but the burnt out brakes caught the surrounding grasses on fire which caught the RV on fire. Roaring fire, with the roof burnt off, the vehicle walls acted as a chimney. Gas from the fuel tank added to the conflagration. With fire all around, the propane tank started to cook off. When it did, The poppet valve released and a hundred foot flame shot out through the roof with a whoosh. The biggest explosion were the tires cooking off and expanding then bursting. Those went off with a bang that I would have thought what would happen to the propane tank. Not to say propane can’t explode, but this was one exciting afternoon in any case. 

Can I make one last plea for bringing back coal for cooking? It’s not volatile, won’t explode, compact, and has about twice the BTUs as wood or charcoal.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Actually the Cookmate two-burner is cheap because it is A TOY.

Two 6800 BTU burners is equal to ONE real stovetop burner. It is that simple. If you want to boil a small kettle of tea, or one cup of soup, that's fine. If you want to get a decent weight 4-quart pot to a boil...This is why so many boaters just buy a $20 (now $25) "Korean BBQ special" butane canister one-burner stove, and if it rusts in five years, toss it. With due care for handling the butane and storing it, it is still real damn hard to beat the value and power of the $25 burners.

A 1500-watt device will use 1500 watts times one hour, or 1500 WATT HOURS in one hour of use. At 12.6 volts (from battery voltage, not alternator or genset) that's 1500/12.6 => 119 Amps being drawn. 

In ten minutes of use, it will use 1500/ (60/10) => 1500/6 => 250 "WATT HOURS" of power consumed in those ten minutes.

250 WATT HOURS on a nominal battery system, with nearly fully charged batteries at 12.6 volts, would be about 20 AMP HOURS out of the bank, drawn during those TEN MINUTES, if I've done my math right.

And since inverters all have efficiency losses, and "volts time amps" actually equal "volt-amperes" which in turn are NOT the same as Watts (there's another conversion loss to be factored in on AC systems)...ten minutes on the 1500-Watt induction stove, or any other AC device, will probably use closer to 25 AH from the "12" volt battery bank. More like 30AH if the battery is at a slightly lower voltage, and there are higher inverter losses, and so on.

If you use that induction burner for a bacon and egg breakfast, and then again to skillet-sear a steak or boil diner...I'd hate to use 50? 70? amp hours per day for cooking. I think for most of us, that's a huge dent in the energy budget.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Units are important. There are a couple of people on this thread with near saintly patience. Kudos to Puddin' Tain and GeorgeB who have been getting it right.

Units are important. If you are using units like amps/hr (or /min or /sec) you don't understand. If you use amps to measure power (W, kW) or energy (Ws, Wh, kWh, or (unfortunately since it adds voltage dependance) Ah) you don't understand. Carry the unit terms through your calculations and you'll see you the error of your ways. This is Jr High School algebra and you should understand it.

I don't intend to offend anyone directly. I hope to help you understand just how important this material is, and that if you get the units straight you will be an electrical rock star.



anonymous said:


> If a microwave is used sparingly, as they nearly always are, the DC amp usage is pretty low. An inverter is needed. But your 1200 watt example need not be that high. A small microwave at 700 watts AC will use about 70 amps DC through the inverter. 5 minutes of use to heat something up or make popcorn or whatever will use 70 divided by 12 or a bit less than 6 amps DC.


This is a great example. Lets walk through it.

First remember that watts are a measure of power that is NOT voltage dependent. That makes them great for dealing with voltage conversions that happen at inverters or battery chargers. Let's use my little Tappan microwave instead of the undefined one above. It is sold as a 600W microwave because that is the output of the microwave transmitter in the oven. If you read the label on the back you'll see it draws a maximum of 850 watts; the difference is due to the efficiency of the transmitter, losses in the power supply, and the control board, clock, etc. So we use 850 watts.

Actual RMS AC voltage (what you read on a volt meter) for US spec appliances should be between 117 and 120 VAC at 60 Hz (Hertz is just the frequency of the alternating cycle (AC) power). Let's use 120 to keep things simple.

850 watts (volt·amperes neglecting power factor which isn't relevant until we talk about refrigerators, air conditioners, or other device with significant rotating loads) / 120 volts = 7 amps ON THE AC CIRCUIT supplied by the inverter. We'll go back to watts to work our way through the voltage conversion in the inverter since it is voltage independent. My Mastervolt 2kW inverter has an efficiency of 95% - actually pretty decent. 850 watts on the AC side turns into 850 watts/0.95 = 895 watts on the DC side. If my batteries are fully charged and providing 13.6 VDC the microwave will draw 895 watts / 13.6 V = 66 amps. That's a lot of amps. If I heat up a casserole for 8 minutes I'll use 66 amps * 8 minutes / 60 minutes/hr = 8.8 Ah from my 675 Ah battery bank, about 1.3% of capacity. Not bad at all.

Lets look at a spaghetti dinner on an induction cooktop. Assume 3 minutes at 1500 watts to boil the pasta water and 11 minutes to cook the pasta at a lower setting - say 600 watts. We also heat canned spaghetti sauce (I'm making this simple so we don't have to saute meat and mirepoix, and sauce and paste, yadayadayada) at about 300 watts for the same total time.

3 min * 1500 W + 11 min * 600 W + 14 min * 300 W = 15300 W·min (aren't watts wonderful?)
Through the inverter 15300 W·min/.95 efficiency = 16105 W·min
Again with fully charged batteries that means 16105 W·min / 13.6 V / 60 min/hr = 20 Ah
Not the end of the world, but that does mean that if spaghetti is representative of a cooked meal and you make two a day aboard and that if refrigeration draws about the same 20 Ah you could cook with propane and have two big refrigerators and a separate freezer and come out ahead. If that's a good trade-off for you, fine - just make the decision with your eyes open and don't kid yourself that there is some magic efficiency changing the rules of physics.

Now one watt is roughly 3.4 BTUs, so a 1500 W induction hob is equivalent to a 5100 BTU propane stove burner. It can't be different. Force 10 and Eno propane cookers (for example) have large burners that run between 8000 and 8500 BTUs. The smaller burners hover around 3400 BTU. So in our spaghetti example above, the propane stove will boil the water faster than the induction hob, but that only reduces the initial 3 minutes. It isn't relevant to heating the sauce or cooking the pasta at reduced heat.

In fairness, most propane cookers have an electrical solenoid in the propane locker that draws a surprising amount of power. Many draw about 1 A the entire time they are switched on. So our spaghetti dinner on a propane cooker consumes 14 min * 1 A / 60 min/hr = 0.23 Ah. Not much, but it should be counted.

All the efficiency claims of induction are relative to electrical resistance heating, not gas.

Exercise: look up and understand current (amps), power (W), and energy (Wh, Ah, BTU).

In my opinion (all the above is fact - this is opinion) propane is the best choice for cooking aboard although it does carry some small risk. If you use a gas powered generator like the Honda to top up your batteries to support electric cooking the risk is similar. If you use a diesel generator, a diesel main, or alternative energy the risk is slightly higher for propane.

If you are so concerned with the explosive potential of propane as to rule it out you can make inductive cooking work but your battery bank better be big (off hand, 1200 Ah or so) and you should have the charging capacity to match unless you eat out a lot.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> Look at the current draw. Even a small micro way will require more current than a small boat can easily provide. Almost all compact microwaves call for a 15A circuit. Even if you can get away with 10A, that's 10A at 120V, or 1200W. In other words, the draw on your boat's batteries would be about 100A at 12.5V. On big boats, with big battery banks and gensets, that's doable. On a 27-foot boat, not likely.


oh. i wasn't asking because i was considering it; just out of curiosity. i wouldn't have any place to put it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> You mean *non*-pressurized alcohol, right?


yes. quite right. i thought i'd typed 'non' in there. my mistake.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

GeorgeB said:


> I think BoatUS is combining propane or at least they address it in their article. More telling is they attribute the decrease in stove fires to a decrease in alcohol stoves.
> 
> "6) Stove - 1%
> Stove fires appear to be less common (1%) than in the past, probably due to fewer alcohol stoves being installed on new boats. Still, alcohol can be a dangerous fuel; though it can't explode, an alcohol flame is hard to see. One fire was started when a member tried to light the stove and gave up because he couldn't see the flame. Unfortunately, he had succeeded, but didn't realize it until he got a call from the fire department. Only one fire was started by propane; a portable stove fell off a counter and ignited a cushion."
> ...


i'm probably going to sound silly for asking but are you serious of joking about the coal? my grandparents used to heat the house with a coal stove and had a kero stove to cook on.


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## Boredop (Feb 21, 2013)

SVAuspicious said:


> If you are so concerned with the explosive potential of propane as to rule it out you can make inductive cooking work but your battery bank better be big (off hand, 1200 Ah or so) and you should have the charging capacity to match unless you eat out a lot.


Let's not forget how explosive batteries can be.....


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Coal? No good for boats, too hard to get good coal in most of the developed world, and too easy to have a monoxide problem.

But speaking of spaghetti, that's a classic "ain't gonna happen" on a 6800btu burner. Can't boil a big pot of water on that. Although, most of us were taught how to cook pasta the rich way, with a big pot of rolling boiling water. If you just bring the water to a boil, and then shut the burner and come back to stir the pasta every few minutes, it cooks up just fine. May take 20 minutes instead of 10, but it cooks just fine without the need for copious amounts of boiling water. Great way to save fuel, whatever kind it is.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

My god Captain Jack, 
Get a propane stove; thousands upon thousands of boats come with them, Statiscally you probably have a better chance of burning your boat down with any other fuel. Install it properly and you souldn't have any issues. 

That or hang a charcoal grill of the back of the boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Interesting.
> 
> However, this is about fires, not explosions. I suppose the statistics includes galley fires caused by liquid (and solid) fuels. But if there is a propane leak, the result is not a fire but BOOOOM


I really doubt that would make much different in the overall results. The point stands, if you one is worried about fire, one should rip out all their electrical systems and revert to LED headlamps, charts and a sextant, long before worrying about propane (assuming its installed correctly).


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

I remember when Ebeneezer Scrooge used.............


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

So what I've gathered is that, done right, propane and alcohol are both very safe. The danger of a fire or explosion from either of them is a small fraction of the other dangers involved in boating.

But for a person with a small boat who is trying to keep systems simple and costs down it sure sounds like alcohol comes out a winner. Two or three hundred bucks for an Origo and you're done. No solenoids, no hoses, no valves...

At least that's how I'm leaning for cooking in my tiny boat.


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## socal c25 (Nov 1, 2013)

If your worried about fires then DON'T cook ANYTHING with GREASE or OIL, those cause more fires than the fuel you use. I would worry more about a dragging anchor than a cooking fuel fire.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

The more I look into it, the better coal sounds. Problem with carbon monoxide? That is so twelfth century. You don’t need to cook over an open brazier like the Vikings. Install a proper stove with a flue. Availability? I found two sources in San Francisco alone. One within walking distance to the St Francis Yacht Club! Coal has been the cooking fuel on sailing ships since the early 19th century. It was still a major cooking fuel on American shipping until the mid-twentieth century before the industry went over to far more dangerous and explosive fuels. If you use coal, you would be communing with our seafaring forefathers and at $7.50 per 50# sack, I’m thinking of switching over from wood in our fireplace at home.

Jack, all kidding aside, keep it simple, keep it affordable. You will be fine. One word of caution, in the six years Mrs. B sailed my little boat, she never once lit the alcohol stove. With propane, I wake up to the aroma of coffee. I couldn’t be happier.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

hellosailor said:


> Coal? No good for boats, too hard to get good coal in most of the developed world, and too easy to have a monoxide problem.
> 
> But speaking of spaghetti, that's a classic "ain't gonna happen" on a 6800btu burner. Can't boil a big pot of water on that. Although, most of us were taught how to cook pasta the rich way, with a big pot of rolling boiling water. If you just bring the water to a boil, and then shut the burner and come back to stir the pasta every few minutes, it cooks up just fine. May take 20 minutes instead of 10, but it cooks just fine without the need for copious amounts of boiling water. Great way to save fuel, whatever kind it is.


actually, if you couldn't cook spagetti, it wouldn't effect me a bit. i don't really care for italian food and i never cook pasta. i do eat ramen noodles but that only takes a teapot full of water. i pour the boiling water on the noodles in a sealable tupperware bowl and just wait for the hot water to do it's work. drain it, add soy sauce and the powder packet. stir it in. add meat, eggs, whatever. stir and eat.

but i don't spagetti.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> I really doubt that would make much different in the overall results. The point stands, if you one is worried about fire, one should rip out all their electrical systems and revert to LED headlamps, charts and a sextant, long before worrying about propane (assuming its installed correctly).


LED cabin lights is what i am going to be using. bright. long lasting. not hot. not a big energy drain. it's a win/win option.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Minnesail said:


> So what I've gathered is that, done right, propane and alcohol are both very safe. The danger of a fire or explosion from either of them is a small fraction of the other dangers involved in boating.
> 
> But for a person with a small boat who is trying to keep systems simple and costs down it sure sounds like alcohol comes out a winner. Two or three hundred bucks for an Origo and you're done. No solenoids, no hoses, no valves...
> 
> At least that's how I'm leaning for cooking in my tiny boat.


me too.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

captain jack said:


> LED cabin lights is what i am going to be using. bright. long lasting. not hot. not a big energy drain. it's a win/win option.


Its proven fact that LED causes brain cancer, Sorry


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

GeorgeB said:


> The more I look into it, the better coal sounds. Problem with carbon monoxide? That is so twelfth century. You don't need to cook over an open brazier like the Vikings. Install a proper stove with a flue. Availability? I found two sources in San Francisco alone. One within walking distance to the St Francis Yacht Club! Coal has been the cooking fuel on sailing ships since the early 19th century. It was still a major cooking fuel on American shipping until the mid-twentieth century before the industry went over to far more dangerous and explosive fuels. If you use coal, you would be communing with our seafaring forefathers and at $7.50 per 50# sack, I'm thinking of switching over from wood in our fireplace at home.
> 
> Jack, all kidding aside, keep it simple, keep it affordable. You will be fine. One word of caution, in the six years Mrs. B sailed my little boat, she never once lit the alcohol stove. With propane, I wake up to the aroma of coffee. I couldn't be happier.


i thought you were pulling my leg but, you never know. my grandparents heated with coal all of their lives, as i said. my grandfather used to take buckets and walk along the train track to get it. it was dirty coal but it was free. so, i wasn't sure if you were joking or serious.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> Its proven fact that LED causes brain cancer, Sorry


so do cell phones. we're already all screwed, in that department.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

one thing i have learned from this thread: cooking with propane inspires the same type of devotion as jesus. if you let on it might not be for you, people want to burn you at the stake!


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

captain jack said:


> so do cell phones. we're already all screwed, in that department.


Not me, I shut my cell phone off two years ago. But then there is wifi Dman!


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> But speaking of spaghetti, that's a classic "ain't gonna happen" on a 6800btu burner. Can't boil a big pot of water on that. Although, most of us were taught how to cook pasta the rich way, with a big pot of rolling boiling water. If you just bring the water to a boil, and then shut the burner and come back to stir the pasta every few minutes, it cooks up just fine. May take 20 minutes instead of 10, but it cooks just fine without the need for copious amounts of boiling water. Great way to save fuel, whatever kind it is.


Bulls**t!
I live aboard and cook daily on a Force 10 3 burner stove. The large burner on a current model is 8200 btu. The 2 smaller burners are 3400 btu. My stove is about 15 years old but similar in btu rating. When boiling water for spaghetti I most often use the large burner but not always. It is very fast on the large burner and plenty fast enough on either of the small burners. I leave the lid off as well. The kettle is always used on the small burner and is also quite fast. The Force 10 is the quicker than any stove I have used in recent years. By comparison I find electric very frustrating to use after living with the Force 10.
The oven is also quick to get up to and keep temperature. Its burner is 5100 btu.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

barefootnavigator said:


> Its proven fact that LED causes brain cancer, Sorry


Gotta reference?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> Units are important. There are a couple of people on this thread with near saintly patience. Kudos to Puddin' Tain and GeorgeB who have been getting it right.
> 
> Units are important. If you are using units like amps/hr (or /min or /sec) you don't understand. If you use amps to measure power (W, kW) or energy (Ws, Wh, kWh, or (unfortunately since it adds voltage dependance) Ah) you don't understand. Carry the unit terms through your calculations and you'll see you the error of your ways. This is Jr High School algebra and you should understand it.
> 
> ...


Nothing like keeping it simple.

1000 watts AC out of an inverter takes 100 amps DC - a bit conservative but easier numbers to use. 1000 watts for one hour out of the inverter consumes 100 AH from the batteries. That is really all you need to know.

Anonymous


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> Gotta reference?


I'm really sorry, I was just teasing, i shouldn't joke about that ****.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

Hmmm...alcohol stoves can't cook pasta? I must have imagined all those pasta dinners and lunches I've cooked on my boat.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

barefootnavigator said:


> I'm really sorry, I was just teasing, i shouldn't joke about that ****.


I thought so. But ya' never know what wacky things people will believe.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> Hmmm...alcohol stoves can't cook pasta? I must have imagined all those pasta dinners and lunches I've cooked on my boat.


Alcohol stove + pressure cooker =YUMMI


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## mitchbrown (Jan 21, 2009)

hellosailor said:


> Coal? No good for boats, too hard to get good coal in most of the developed world, and too easy to have a monoxide problem.
> 
> But speaking of spaghetti, that's a classic "ain't gonna happen" on a 6800btu burner. Can't boil a big pot of water on that. Although, most of us were taught how to cook pasta the rich way, with a big pot of rolling boiling water. If you just bring the water to a boil, and then shut the burner and come back to stir the pasta every few minutes, it cooks up just fine. May take 20 minutes instead of 10, but it cooks just fine without the need for copious amounts of boiling water. Great way to save fuel, whatever kind it is.


FYI copied these specs from a force 10 propane marine stove.

3,400 BTUs per small top burner

8,200 BTUs per large top burner

5,100 BTUs oven burner
5,500 BTU Broiler

So you can see that the Origo alcohol stoves burners are right inline for marine stoves

Sure Marine Service, Inc. | Force10


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Propane = risk of boom.

CNG = risk that you can't find a fill station... or boom. 

Alcohol = risk of burn (or blindness if you drink it)

Kerosene = risk of CO poisoning.

Electric and genset = risk of being murdered by your neighbor in a quiet anchorage

Wood = risk of setting fire to your boat

Diesel = risk of wood and kerosene combined

fission = risk of cancer

fusion = risk of the CIA murdering your for your technology

cold food = risk of suicide

Everything has risk. You make your choices, you CHOOSE WHICH RISK you prefer and go with it. If propane were really all that dangerous don't you think that the drunken idiots all over America that are operating poorly maintained, made in China BBQs would be blowing themselves up all time? Yet somehow they're not....

MedSailor


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> Not me, I shut my cell phone off two years ago. But then there is wifi Dman!




i suppose, you could always start wearing a tin foil beanie to keep all the bad stuff out of your head.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> Alcohol stove + pressure cooker =YUMMI


you've eaten alcohol stoves and pressure cookers?! that can't be easy on your teeth!


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> If propane were really all that dangerous don't you think that the drunken idiots all over America that are operating poorly maintained, made in China BBQs would be blowing themselves up all time? Yet somehow they're not....
> 
> MedSailor


that makes logical sense....except if you look at the world around you. the above mentioned drunken idiots are constantly doing really stupid things that would normally blow up and be fatal if a normal, non drunken idiot sort of person did it....and nothing bad happens to them. sometimes it seems that the universe looks out a little bit more for those kinds of people. otherwise, there'd be a lot more fatalities involving camaflage colored four wheelers and monster trucks.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

captain jack said:


> LED cabin lights is what i am going to be using. bright. long lasting. not hot. not a big energy drain. it's a win/win option.


I can't get the link to open right now, but believe I recall 12v shorts are the number one subcategory of electrical fires. Doesn't matter how hot the bulb gets. Improper installation, fusing, wire size, connectors, chafe, etc.

All I'm saying is, if you're stressed over fire hazzards, these win hands down over galley fuel. Especially on older boats that prior owners may have messed with or time may have been unkind toward.

What cooking fuel you use is up to you.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnesail said:


> So what I've gathered is that, done right, propane and alcohol are both very safe. The danger of a fire or explosion from either of them is a small fraction of the other dangers involved in boating.
> 
> But for a person with a small boat who is trying to keep systems simple and costs down it sure sounds like alcohol comes out a winner. Two or three hundred bucks for an Origo and you're done. No solenoids, no hoses, no valves...
> 
> At least that's how I'm leaning for cooking in my tiny boat.


I spent a wonderful summer with a girl friend on a Catalina 22 pop-top. We had an unpressurized alcohol stove. The only frustration was how long it took for coffee in the morning. The extra time for everything else could be planned into our day. We did spend a lot on stove fuel.

Propane is a lot more available - more of an issue for sustained periods aboard without ground transportation than weekends...



captain jack said:


> actually, if you couldn't cook spagetti, it wouldn't effect me a bit.


Spaghetti was just an arbitrary example. Pick another decent meal and I'll run numbers. If you really live on Ramen noodles none of it makes much difference. Down that path lies the discussion of "does boating have to be camping."

The point of my post was not spaghetti but that there are a lot of incorrect calculations in this thread and that getting your units right will make it apparent whether one understands reality or not.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> I can't get the link to open right now, but believe I recall 12v shorts are the number one subcategory of electrical fires. Doesn't matter how hot the bulb gets. Improper installation, fusing, wire size, connectors, chafe, etc.
> 
> All I'm saying is, if you're stressed over fire hazzards, these win hands down over galley fuel. Especially on older boats that prior owners may have messed with or time may have been unkind toward.
> 
> What cooking fuel you use is up to you.


been replacing all the wiring. it was mickey moused pretty badly. doing it the tight way.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

captain jack said:


> .....it was mickey moused pretty badly......


Hence the fire risk. Way to go.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

SVAuspicious said:


> I spent a wonderful summer with a girl friend on a Catalina 22 pop-top. We had an unpressurized alcohol stove. The only frustration was how long it took for coffee in the morning. The extra time for everything else could be planned into our day. We did spend a lot on stove fuel.
> 
> Propane is a lot more available - more of an issue for sustained periods aboard without ground transportation than weekends...
> 
> ...


ok


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I really doubt that would make much different in the overall results. The point stands, if you one is worried about fire, one should rip out all their electrical systems and revert to LED headlamps, charts and a sextant, long before worrying about propane (assuming its installed correctly).


You make it sound as if gas explosions happen so rarely that there is no point paying attention to the problem.

Wasn't there a case just last week where a cruiser was likely killed by a gas explosion? (the guy with the Norwegian wife/girl friend). I am not sure all the facts are in on that one but that seemed the most likely explanation for his death.

And the week before another one, where a rat chewed on the propane line (and was photographed paddling away).

Even with all these deaths, gas explosions may still be rare occurrencies but I prefer to better my odds. I sleep better with my guaranteed non-exploding kerosene stove and oven...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> You make it sound as if gas explosions happen so rarely that there is no point paying attention to the problem.
> 
> Wasn't there a case just last week where a cruiser was likely killed by a gas explosion? (the guy with the Norwegian wife/girl friend). I am not sure all the facts are in on that one but that seemed the most likely explanation for his death.
> 
> ...


No, that's not what I said.

I said that it would not make a difference in the overall results and that *assumes* they aren't already included in the galley fire stats.

With electrical and engines comprising roughly 80% of all boat fires and galleys making up only 1%, there is no way that "explosions" cover the gap. Galley fuel is not nearly your number one fire hazard aboard. Concern over fire is what started this thread.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> No, that's not what I said.
> 
> I said that it would not make a difference in the overall results and that *assumes* they aren't already included in the galley fire stats.
> 
> With electrical and engines comprising roughly 80% of all boat fires and galleys making up only 1%, there is no way that "explosions" cover the gap. Galley fuel is not nearly your number one fire hazard aboard. Concern over fire is what started this thread.


True. "If you have (uncontrolled) ignition of propane on your boat, the resulting fire is the least of your problems"


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

SVAuspicious said:


> I spent a wonderful summer with a girl friend on a Catalina 22 pop-top. We had an unpressurized alcohol stove. The only frustration was how long it took for coffee in the morning. The extra time for everything else could be planned into our day. We did spend a lot on stove fuel.


Sounds like a great summer!

Does it really take that much longer? Origo claims 7000 BTU, and I just looked up my home Frigidaire gas range and it say 9500 BTU for the standard burners (not counting my favorite burner, the Power Plus 17000 BTU), so by those numbers it should only take about a third longer to reach boiling. Doesn't seem like a big deal.

My butane camping stove is also 7000 BTU and for some reason it seems faster that the regular burners on my home range. Maybe my patience is better when I'm in the great outdoors


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

as it should be on a boat...I didnt mind the slow cooking from my alcohol stove I found it very practical...

no urge at all...

propane even less...some burners are better than others but on a boat lets all just be happy sipping on some boat made coco or coffee etc...


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> True. "If you have (uncontrolled) ignition of propane on your boat, the resulting fire is the least of your problems"


Rarely a fire with propane - there isn't much oxygen left after the explosion.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

Minnesail said:


> Sounds like a great summer!
> 
> Does it really take that much longer? ...


Not really. Keeping the cover on the pot has a far larger effect.

Over-all, the cooking times probably are (at most) 15 or 20% longer with a Origo-type stove relative to most propane boat stoves; but if you're in such a rush that 15-20% is gonna be a deal breaker what the f__k are you sailing for?


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## gptyk (Mar 20, 2013)

Did this ever get to the simplest and safe thing for cal-27 is an origo? Looks like 10 new pages from yesterday....Wow... And I though sailors were argumentative about anchors  -- never knew da cooker was such a hot topic.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnesail said:


> Sounds like a great summer!


It was. I cherish those memories still.



Minnesail said:


> Does it really take that much longer? Origo claims 7000 BTU, and I just looked up my home Frigidaire gas range and it say 9500 BTU for the standard burners (not counting my favorite burner, the Power Plus 17000 BTU), so by those numbers it should only take about a third longer to reach boiling. Doesn't seem like a big deal.
> 
> My butane camping stove is also 7000 BTU and for some reason it seems faster that the regular burners on my home range. Maybe my patience is better when I'm in the great outdoors


What I remember is 15 minutes or so to the start of perking and then 10 to 12 minutes to the right color in the glass knob. On my current propane cooker with the same percolator it takes about five minutes to the beginning of perking and 8 minutes to coffee. 13 minutes compared to about 26 minutes is a difference.

I simply don't believe 7000 BTU for an alcohol burner. I don't see how the heat of combustion supports that. Admittedly I haven't run numbers. If you can point me to specs I'll follow up with the manufacturer and see if they'll support side-by-side test.

The difference between butane and propane is only of interest in very cold weather. Otherwise it's the same stuff.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Hmmm...alcohol stoves can't cook pasta? "
Not that they can't, but no cold burner is going to get a BIG pot of water to a rolling boil in a reasonable time, compared to a burner with twice as many BTUs. With some burners at 6800 and others at 11000 and that superburner at 17000...
Hey, I had a home stove that always had yellow flames on the burners, no matter how I adjusted them. With "municipal" piped gas. I finally called the gas company and they guessed it was simply so old, leftover from maybe 1940, that they thought it might have been designed for "coal gas" and it simply never would be able to make a modern blue flame. It has cold burners, no way to improve them.

Granted I've never boiled a corned beef or a really big pot of lobsters on a boat...but I've used some large pots and wee chilly burners just don't get them going in a reasonable time. They won't get a wok sizzling, they won't sear a steak in a cast iron pan, they' just adequate for the smaller lighter tasks. Which is fine if that floats your boat. But 5-6,000 but? Really? Just 'cause I _can _grill sushi over a Zippo lighter, doesn't mean that's a really great way to do it.

The old Coleman fuel (gasoline) stoves were around 7000 BTU each burner. Newer ones may run 10000 BTU.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

SVAuspicious said:


> It was. I cherish those memories still.






SVAuspicious said:


> I simply don't believe 7000 BTU for an alcohol burner. I don't see how the heat of combustion supports that. Admittedly I haven't run numbers. If you can point me to specs I'll follow up with the manufacturer and see if they'll support side-by-side test.


Here's what I was going by: Origo 3000 & 1500 Alcohol Stoves

I'll probably be picking one up this summer. If I do, I'll do a side-by-side with my home range and my camping stove and post the results here.


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## mitchbrown (Jan 21, 2009)

Your home range is an unfair comparison. You need to compare Origo to a marine Propane stove. As I showed in my post a couple pages back they are similar in BTU. Most marine propane stoves have a much smaller burner than do most home stoves.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnesail said:


> Here's what I was going by: Origo 3000 & 1500 Alcohol Stoves
> 
> I'll probably be picking one up this summer. If I do, I'll do a side-by-side with my home range and my camping stove and post the results here.


Interesting. They do say 7000 BTU and claim 10 minutes to boil a quart of water. West Marine advertises the same product with 5000 BTU which gets into the 15(ish) minute range of my experience. I have no explanation, only my observations. Your proposed side-by-side comparison would be useful. Be sure to use the same amount of water, the same pots, the same ambient temperature, and the same measurements.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I could never get a ROLLING boil on my pop down alcohol wick stove...a nice simmer yes...but I could barely do so on a propane range

not a force 5 but some cheap 3 burner oven combo

in any case it was fine for coco, coffee, ramen any canned soup...etc

there are tricks to make any stove and any fuel be hotter for example

on any open flame burner by making a shield out of copper preffereably that tightly surrounds the base of the pot or pan you increase the heat a lot, especially since wind and or cold air will not push away the flames

they sell kits for example for paella cooking tripods when used out in fields and this keeps the flames going nicely

just a thought for those of you with "low" btu burners...

same for ovens

by reducing the size of the inside area with heat resistant material or even using thin flat bricks as a hot plate you can mantain a much better heat and steady temp as well as decrease fuel consumption

cheers dudes


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Origo has much more surface area burning alcohol than a wick-based alcohol stove. They really do perform pretty well and have no problem boiling a gallon or more of water in a reasonable amount of time. Their biggest problem is that they produce a single hot spot instead of a well distributed flame, so they work best with heavy pots. They do include a diffuser to help with this as well.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

cool

there are ways to distribute heat better too


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

mitchbrown said:


> Most marine propane stoves have a much smaller burner than do most home stoves.


But a good stove like a Force 10 is fast at bringing water to a boil or whatever it is you are cooking. Whether I am using an aluminum fry pan or a thick bottom stainless pot I have not ever cooked on a faster stove. Same for bringing the oven up to temp. I have not timed it but have used many stoves over the years - alcohol, kerosene, naptha (and electric in a house). I have never used a gas appliance on land, just in my boats.

I do know the time required to boil on the Wallas diesel cooktop I posted about earlier. It is rated at 6500 Btu. 2 quarts of tap temp water on a hot stove takes 12 minutes to boil.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I was just cruising through craigslist and I found 5 or 6 PRESSURIZED alcohol stoves and not one propane stove oven combo...

wonder why? 
wink wink

they were cheap too captainjack


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I have no passion for what one prefers to have as galley fuel.

However, I will add to the chorus on the concern over alcohol fuel. As kids, our boat had an alcohol stove and my mother cautioned us to stay away from it 24/7, no matter what. It was an evil pariah aboard. The simple reason was that you couldn't see the flame. Lighting paper or a box or your clothing aflame is a genuine concern with alcohol. One may be extraordinarily careful or not have kids aboard or any guest to every worry about. To each their own.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

i have used propane since 1990 without problems and i have rarely used safety precaution of solenoid. just remember to turn off the gas before changing tanks.....
propane burns hotter than alcohol. try cooking abalone on alcohol..you WILL only have shoe rubber. btd..


and i never cook safes.....they get too hot ....cannot open them when too hot....


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> However, I will add to the chorus on the concern over alcohol fuel. As kids, our boat had an alcohol stove and my mother cautioned us to stay away from it 24/7, no matter what.


That was almost certainly a pressurized alcohol stove. Besides the fuel these have nothing in common with the unpressurized ones. I don't think anyone in this thread has recommended a pressurized alcohol stove.


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## mitchbrown (Jan 21, 2009)

its amazing how the disinformation keeps being injected into these threads. I feel like people just post without having followed the thread from the beginning


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> The simple reason was that you couldn't see the flame. Lighting paper or a box or your clothing aflame is a genuine concern with alcohol. One may be extraordinarily careful or not have kids aboard or any guest to every worry about.


I can see that the colorless flame thing could be an issue. We have a simmer burner on our range that has an almost invisible flame and I have been known to leave it on overnight until my wife notices it the next morning.

It's been a long time since I've taken chemistry, but you'd think you could add something to the fuel to give it a color. Dose it with a little borax or something.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

*Re: safe cooking / flames*



Minnesail said:


> I can see that the colorless flame thing could be an issue. We have a simmer burner on our range that has an almost invisible flame and I have been known to leave it on overnight until my wife notices it the next morning.
> 
> It's been a long time since I've taken chemistry, but you'd think you could add something to the fuel to give it a color. Dose it with a little borax or something.


i wonder if the comments about invisible flames refer to Pressure Alcohol stoves? I have heard that before and do believe it... but our Origo flame is Always yellow/Blue and never difficult to see, no matter what height it burns.
As for the invisible problem - yup - it's real and a friend of mine had to abandon a sailboat in Commencement Bay (Tacoma, WA) many decades ago when a sailboat he was crewing on had a galley fire fed by a pressurized alcohol tank. He said that no one saw the spreading flames until the fire was well going and everyone jumped to nearby boats and the boat itself then burned up.
Evidently the fire started with a faulty hose connection on the back of the stove that somehow ignited.
Considering how little attention some folks pay to their galley fuel systems - propane or pressure alcohol - I can imagine how such problems might happen. Scary stuff.
As I said before, the Origo design has merit for it's simplicity and basic safety. Having said all that, NO combustable fuel will ever be 100% safe for all users all of the time.

BTW, don't know if this horse is thoroughly dead yet, but he's not movin' much!


Loren


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Yes, you could "add something" but then you'd probably have questions about corrosion, clogging, "Stove fuel only!" at higher prices because it couldn't be safely used for something else. Health concerns about combustion products. What a can of sterno. Ergh, worms.

A yellow flame, as in unpressurized alky burners, is the classic sign of incomplete combustion. And a "cold" flame. Nothing to be proud of.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> I was just cruising through craigslist and I found 5 or 6 PRESSURIZED alcohol stoves and not one propane stove oven combo...
> 
> wonder why?
> wink wink
> ...


thanks. but, i think i'll go non pressurized. it might cost me a little more than the pressurized systems people are trying to get rid of on craigslist but, it sounds like it's worth it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

zeehag said:


> i have used propane since 1990 without problems and i have rarely used safety precaution of solenoid. just remember to turn off the gas before changing tanks.....
> propane burns hotter than alcohol. try cooking abalone on alcohol..you WILL only have shoe rubber. btd..
> 
> and i never cook safes.....they get too hot ....cannot open them when too hot....


good one. :laugher

i never cook abalone.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

those intending to cruise to mexico and other places should research the availability of stove fuel. 
mexico does not allow kerosene nor alcohol for stove fuel . only propane, which is readily available everywhere. if you try to transport kero over border, it will be taken from you. 

btw, brent sain, alcohol fire flames are difficult to see. when something or someone is on fire with alcohol fuel as the accelerant, it is not visible, except for the blisters being made on the skin or in the paint of the race car or in the fiberglass inside the boat. 
the formosa i bought had had 5 galley fires before i bought and changed the non pressurized alcohol stove. 
when i watched po of my ericson light a 3 ft tall flame in the ericson i ultimately bought, i decided then and there to convert to propane. is much safer. 
try adding fuel to a burner of an alcohol stove while in a seaway while underway with following or quartering 8-12 ft seas.... i dare ye..is how 5 pos burned this formosa... 
enjoy .


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## Solandri (Sep 7, 2012)

Not gonna quote who I'm replying to, just gonna give the replies.

The reason propane is so popular is because it's a gas at room temperature but liquefies at a relatively low pressure (about 100-150 psi). That makes it easy to store (a thin metal pressure vessel lets you store it as a liquid), but burns as a gas so provides good heat density. Butane is similar but liquefies at an even lower pressure. As others have pointed out, propane and butane sink in air, so are a particular danger aboard boats as a leak will build up in the bilge. Fire is the main danger when that happens. Explosions require a rather specific ratio of fuel to air, and typically require it to be mixed rather than striated with fuel on the bottom, air on top. If the ratio is off, it will just burn (too much air) or simmer (too much fuel) rather than explode.

CNG (methane) remains a gas under pressure. So CNG tanks are typically designed to withstand 1000-5000 psi. They have to be much thicker - think scuba diving tank. This has weight and safety implications. The energy density for a given volume is also much worse than the liquid fuels. Also note that methane is normally odorless. The Gas Company adds the smell you know as the leaking gas smell, and farts smell because of sulfates mixed in with the methane. I would assume CNG sold as fuel also has the smell added.

The liquid fuels - alcohol and kerosene for this application - don't burn as well because they're liquid. You need to do something to increase their surface area to burn enough of it at once to really generate heat. Typically this is done with a wick, but it's not as good as a gaseous fuel. That's why people complain about long cooking times. Gasoline and diesel burned in an engine use either a carburetor or injector to vaporize the liquid to get around this problem. Pressurized alcohol stoves also gasify the alcohol prior to burning to get around this problem. But the lack of surface area (low rate at which it vaporizes) also has an upside - it makes the fuel safer.

Kerosene also has a problem in that it's not as clean burning as the other fuels. Like gasoline and diesel, it's actually composed of a lot of different hydrocarbons, each of which burns differently. So you're more likely to get other compounds than CO2, water, and soot after burning. That's why people complain about the smell.

Electric has a huge efficiency problem. All the fuels listed above are 100% efficient for heating applications. That is, all the energy in the fuel goes into heating up your cookware (before it dissipates into the air). Gas and diesel generators are only about 30% or 35% efficient at best. That is, 30%-35% of the energy in the fuel is converted into electricity. The rest goes into heating up the generator. So if you're using a 1000W electric stove, for every 1000W of heat that makes it to your cookware, about 2500W of heat is wasted heating up the seawater or air cooling your generator. So unless you're on shore power or getting all your electricity from wind/solar, this has huge implications for the amount of fuel burned for a given number of meals. If you do go electric though, I think induction is the way to go. It's more finicky, but it almost completely eliminates the risk of fire due to something flammable falling on the heating element.

Carbon monoxide is a higher energy state than carbon dioxide, so is typically a byproduct of insufficient oxygenation. The fuel _wants_ to burn into CO2, but there's not enough oxygen so it becomes CO instead. As long as you have good ventilation to your burner (the outlets are clean with good airflow) and aren't trying to burn too large a quantity of fuel at once, you shouldn't have a carbon monoxide problem.

Energy density of these fuels:

Propane: 49.6 MJ/kg, 25.3 MJ/liter
Butane: 49.1 MJ/kg, 27.7 MJ/liter
Alcohol: 30 MJ/kg, 24 MJ/liter
CNG: 55.6 MJ/kg, 0.038 MJ/liter (1 atmosphere), 12.9 MJ/liter (5000 psi)
Kerosene: 42.8 MJ/kg, 33 MJ/liter
Gasoline: 46.4 MJ/kg, 34.2 MJ/liter
Diesel: 46.2 MJ/kg, 37.3 MJ/liter

This tells you how much of a fuel you'll need to burn to cook identical meals. Lower numbers = more fuel needed; divide by 3.5 for gas electric, 3 for diesel electric. e.g. CNG stored at 5000 psi is 12.9 MJ/liter, so you'll need just about twice the volume of CNG to cook a meal as you would propane (25.3 MJ/liter). An electric stove running off a gas generator is equivalent to about 10.7 MJ/liter, so you'd burn 2.4 gallons of gasoline for every 1 gallon of propane used for cooking. Induction is probably better because it heats the cookware directly, though I'm not sure how much better.

I'm not knowledgeable enough about the day-to-day use of these fuels to comment on their relative safety. But understand that there are a lot of different factors which should go into your decision than just safety.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

You are wrong about kerosene. It burns as a vapor after the burner is pre-heated with alcohol. Very hot burning and virtually odorless. I doubt there has been a wick type of kerosene stove on boats for over 100 years.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

mitiempo said:


> You are wrong about kerosene. It burns as a vapor after the burner is pre-heated with alcohol. Very hot burning and virtually odorless. I doubt there has been a wick type of kerosene stove on boats for over 100 years.


friend of mine bought one recently. wasnew. 
kerosene stinks when burning, so isnt like yer gonna sit inside with the doors shut and breathe this stink.

cng is great. 
but..... try to obtain it easily outside of usa. is not available here, that i have found.... i am in mexico, btw.....

might be a really great idea to research cooking fuels in the locales you plan on cruising so you can figure out what kind of cooking you want to do on board at sea in a seaway and at anchor in bumpy and in smooth anchorages before committing self to anything. 
there are many miles between the dream stage and inside usa cruising and out in the world of omygodswhatami gonna cook with., there isnt alcohol nor cng in mexico..nor kerosene... omy now what me gonna do as i refused to use propane on board ,..yada yada yada.....(as well as refused to listen to that crazy ***** who is actually out in mexico cruising and seeking items friends request....)


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

zeehag said:


> kerosene stinks when burning, so isnt like yer gonna sit inside with the doors shut and breathe this stink.


We have discussed this several times in this thread (you may want to read it). You are confounded about kerosene burnt through a wick and through a generator. The first stinks, the second doesn't.

I don't know what makes you think that there is no kerosene available in Mexico. It is correct that consumption at the end consumer level is way down, probably due to replacement by other light and energy sources. Still, in 2010 (last data available), the country still used 430 barrels a year: Mexico Kerosene Consumption by Year (Thousand Barrels per Day)

Oh, and if there weren't any kerosene, they wouldn't be flying planes (Jet A fuel is kerosene).


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

i have been in mexico here for 3 years--got here april 7, 2011, by sailboat from san diego..lol.... not in border towns nor in ****** locales, but with locals in ports with my cat and my boat. i will be sailing here until my boat is finished....needs some work now.
are you here in mexico or are you at a puter desk in northville. 
friends of mine live in mexico in houses. they have lived here longer than have i, and they let me know what is not available here for citizens and turistas and other non military folks.


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## Brewgyver (Dec 31, 2011)

Alex W said:


> The thread starter (captain jack, right?) has a Cal 2-27. I don't think he'll be doing a lot of international offshore cruising on that boat.


Funny, but there was a post in the"Spot" thread with a link to an article in 
Latitude 38
about a "well known single hander" in his Cal 2-27... After 5 solo crossings from SD to Hawaii, he lost a shroud and eventually the mast while en route from Kahlului to Lahaina.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> We have discussed this several times in this thread (you may want to read it). You are confounded about kerosene burnt through a wick and through a generator. The first stinks, the second doesn't.
> 
> I don't know what makes you think that there is no kerosene available in Mexico. It is correct that consumption at the end consumer level is way down, probably due to replacement by other light and energy sources. Still, in 2010 (last data available), the country still used 430 barrels a year: Mexico Kerosene Consumption by Year (Thousand Barrels per Day)
> 
> Oh, and if there weren't any kerosene, they wouldn't be flying planes (Jet A fuel is kerosene).


ok. get here to mexico and try to buy it. it is not for sale to citizens nor turistas. it is for government use only. 
i am here in mexico finding that which i need and learning about that which is unavailable and you argue with me. this is hy larry us. definitely troll behaviour, thankyou very much. i have beeen writing from mexico fro over three years now. 
i have actually been thanked when folks meet me for the info i post for them.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

i am still looking for yálls recipe for safes..could well be a good alternative to rock soup.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

well I was shot down...since captain jack isnt leaving the states soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

thats that for various fuel consumption sources in different countries

down here the word KEROSENE doesnt even exist...they use the word solvente or gas(gas in this case is DIESEL which is like kerosene but NOT exactly the same, as jet fuel either)

point being a pint of gas(diesel solvent) is around 8 bucks...vey expensive when you compare that to propane which is subsidzied by government and around $11 for 35lbs!

diesel at the pump is $4 but you would be very smoky and sooty doing so...yes there are diesel cookers down here but no go on a boat they are messy

as a fellow cruiser a while back I did a few refueling trips for some who needed a propane refuel for their boats on my motorcycle...

I got charged by the pound up here in san salvador loaded it back on my bike rode down to the anchorage and bobs your uncle

I also mentioned that not all places even in the states "view" alcohol or kerosene as cooking fuel so it is more scarce...but like everything good up north once you find a cood purveyor and price you just keep going to that place and your good to go

anywhoo

my input in this thread is done I guess...

hope jack gets a nice little stove for his boat and gets cooking stuff for the girlfriend

peace


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Brewgyver said:


> Funny, but there was a post in the"Spot" thread with a link to an article in
> Latitude 38
> about a "well known single hander" in his Cal 2-27... After 5 solo crossings from SD to Hawaii, he lost a shroud and eventually the mast while en route from Kahlului to Lahaina.


awesome. a cal 27 blue water boat. makes me feel good about the saeworthiness of these boats. thanks for the link.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> well I was shot down...since captain jack isnt leaving the states soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> 
> thats that for various fuel consumption sources in different countries
> 
> ...


thanks for the good wishes, sir.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

zeehag said:


> ok. get here to mexico and try to buy it. it is not for sale to citizens nor turistas. it is for government use only.
> i am here in mexico finding that which i need and learning about that which is unavailable and you argue with me. this is hy larry us. definitely troll behaviour, thankyou very much. i have beeen writing from mexico fro over three years now.
> i have actually been thanked when folks meet me for the info i post for them.


Why are you so defensive? We are discussing availability of cooking fuels, for crying out loud! How aggressive do you get when the Really Important Questions of life are discussed, like "what is the best anchor?" 

I may be a lame ****** in Northville but I can operate machinery like Google. When I put in "kerosene in mexico," it does not tell me anything about kero having suddenly become a controlled substance down there that mere mortals are not even allowed to sniff. Instead, it gives me Yellow Pages to gas stations that sell the stuff (e.g. Mexico Kerosene in Mexico MO Yellow Pages by Superpages). Are you telling me all these gas stations are part of a secret government program where only the military fills up their jerrycans?


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

if you need to consider a mere splaination to folks as defensive. mebbe you should relearn psych 101a.

if it were still available in fueling stations then folks would actually be able to find the stuff....lol what have i said...fueling stations have gas, diesel, oil. only. if google sed otherwise, then the magical pump must be well hidden that no one can locate it.


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## Greenhand (Jan 29, 2012)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Why are you so defensive? We are discussing availability of cooking fuels, for crying out loud! How aggressive do you get when the Really Important Questions of life are discussed, like "what is the best anchor?"
> 
> I may be a lame ****** in Northville but I can operate machinery like Google. When I put in "kerosene in mexico," it does not tell me anything about kero having suddenly become a controlled substance down there that mere mortals are not even allowed to sniff. Instead, it gives me Yellow Pages to gas stations that sell the stuff (e.g. Mexico Kerosene in Mexico MO Yellow Pages by Superpages). Are you telling me all these gas stations are part of a secret government program where only the military fills up their jerrycans?


Those links seem to be to the town of Mexico, MO, rather than the country.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Why are you so defensive? We are discussing availability of cooking fuels, for crying out loud! How aggressive do you get when the Really Important Questions of life are discussed, like "what is the best anchor?"
> 
> I may be a lame ****** in Northville but I can operate machinery like Google. When I put in "kerosene in mexico," it does not tell me anything about kero having suddenly become a controlled substance down there that mere mortals are not even allowed to sniff. Instead, it gives me Yellow Pages to gas stations that sell the stuff (e.g. Mexico Kerosene in Mexico MO Yellow Pages by Superpages). Are you telling me all these gas stations are part of a secret government program where only the military fills up their jerrycans?


Actually, the Mexico to which that page refers is Mexico, MO (Missouri).

However, I also have some pretty serious doubts about the validity of Zeehag's claims about denatured alcohol and kerosene in Mexico (the country). I also Googled various combinations of "Mexico", "alcohol", and "kerosene" and I could find absolutely nothing about their use or importation being banned. In fact, I found several posts on various camping and boating sites indicating that both fuels are available.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

arguing with those not able to forego ARGUING when provided a real time answer is totally not a valid option. come to mexico expecting to find easily or reasonably priced or even available stove fuels is an entirely different story. google aint always accurate... oh wait..is interwebz so must be real. 
being here is real. not google


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

My experience includes non-pressurized alcohol (Origo), propane, and CNG. I've had CNG on my sailboat for the past 18 years and am very comfortable with it from a safety standpoint. That said, you need to plan on CNG exchanges/refills, as others have noted that it can be very inconvenient if you run out on a cruise. My boat came with one tank, but I added a second after running out of gas on a cruise and not finding CNG nearby. 

CNG is also relatively expensive. My last exchange (Westerly , RI) cost $41 for 80 cu. ft. Several years ago I replaced my 2-stage regulator at a cost of $450. Still and all, I wouldn't switch to propane because of the safety factor of having a gas that is lighter than air. If I were to cruise farther afield and found that CNG was not available I would reconsider.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> Actually, the Mexico to which that page refers is Mexico, MO (Missouri).


Ooops! We need an emoticon 'wiping egg from my face' 

Looking at the indexmundi numbers that I referenced to earlier, there is no question that kerosene consumption is much lower than it used to be, for whatever reason. But the fact that Zeehag cannot find it in his immediate neighborhood (and that his local friends tell him they can't either) does not prove that the stuff has entirely disappeared in the whole country. In particular since the published numbers says otherwise.

At the very least, every single airport in the country has it by the thousands of gallons...


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

zeehag said:


> might be a really great idea to research cooking fuels in the locales you plan on cruising so you can figure out what kind of cooking you want to do on board at sea in a seaway and at anchor in bumpy and in smooth anchorages before committing self to anything.
> there are many miles between the dream stage and inside usa cruising and out in the world of omygodswhatami gonna cook with., there isnt alcohol nor cng in mexico..nor kerosene... omy now what me gonna do as i refused to use propane on board ,..yada yada yada.....(as well as refused to listen to that crazy ***** who is actually out in mexico cruising and seeking items friends request....)





zeehag said:


> friends of mine live in mexico in houses. they have lived here longer than have i, and they let me know what is not available here for citizens and turistas and other non military folks.


I think you are misinformed.

Also, you tell people to do research and then beat them up for doing it and finding that what you say does not seem to be true. Our own brand of academic peer review, if you will.

Oh - I'm not in Mexico either. It has been a while since I was there but I'm pretty sure I would have noticed if they had regulated availability of something as fundamental as kerosene.

You should be able to find petróleo in hardware stores. With a little work you can likely find an airport that will sell you Jet A-1. Unlikely to find it in service stations. It would take work to source but it should be possible.

Propane is the best choice of cooking fuel for cruisers today in my opinion.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

its available guys...just not often called kerosene as we know it...its primary use down here in central america is as a solvent for paints and the like or as a cleaning agent for mechanics, motor rebuild places...etc...

petroleo sounds right for mexico but I cant remember...in guatemala its solvente as well...

basically I was researching all this as I wanted to make a home brew octane and fuel cleaner for my racing offroad motorcycle I had a while back

I needed a mix of toulene, kerosene and some other goodies...basically I could not find pure toulene and when getting specific about kerosene I just couldnt risk it with the mislabelling of the word kerosene down here so I avoided doing so...

anywhoo


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## FinallySailing (Feb 12, 2013)

Have an Origo and love it. No problem filling the canisters if you take them out of the gimballed stove and with the gaskets evaporation hasn't been an issue. 

What I do find worrying is how quickly the CO level goes up in the cabin (and I am sure this will be true for all combustive stoves that do not vent outside). Used to be tempted to keep the hatch closed when it's really cold and wet to make a quick cuppa until I got my alarm telling me ! More worrying to have any open combustion inside the cabin for heating like the "heat pal". Origo used to make a combined ethanol and electric cooker, so at least when you are on shore power you could cook with electricity. Haven't seen that around for a while ...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Christian, if you can't find 'kerosene' trying asking for it under it's British name.

Paraffin Oil.

That might apply to other places outside of the US as well. "Kerosene" is a Colonial term, in fact a US trademark from 1854. It is not a material, it is a _brand _of material.

The way we baffle the world expecting to find a Kleenex (brand of facial tissue) or some Scotch (brand of self-adhesive cellophane) tape.

I would be surprised if the inefficient combustion from an unpressurized Origo stove was putting a higher amount of CO in the combustion products. Along with the gobs of water they put out. Someone who cares can look that one up. (G)


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

FinallySailing said:


> Have an Origo and love it. No problem filling the canisters if you take them out of the gimballed stove and with the gaskets evaporation hasn't been an issue.
> 
> What I do find worrying is how quickly the CO level goes up in the cabin (*and I am sure this will be true for all combustive stoves that do not vent outside)*. Used to be tempted to keep the hatch closed when it's really cold and wet to make a quick cuppa until I got my alarm telling me ! More worrying to have any open combustion inside the cabin for heating like the "heat pal". Origo used to make a combined ethanol and electric cooker, so at least when you are on shore power you could cook with electricity. Haven't seen that around for a while ...


Actually this is one of the great benefits of propane. No appreciable amount of CO. The bi-products of combustion are CO2 and H2O. That's why you see so many propane stoves and ovens in campers, trailers, boats etc without venting.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"That's why you see so many propane stoves and ovens in "
I knew the guy who almost died from the original "Hot Walter" propane heater in a boat shower. Passed out from the unvented CO produced by that unit, which knocked the company and the general design off the marine market.

So, maybe less CO, but still plenty enough to kill.


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## FinallySailing (Feb 12, 2013)

Carbon Monoxide Poisoning Deaths Associated with Camping -- Georgia, March 1999

Not a recent publication and perhaps the design of propane stoves has significantly improved to reduce the risk of incomplete combustion since. Thinking where most of the stuff,that budget sailors like myself use, is being made, I doubt it. Point that I wanted to make is: everybody seemed to worry about specific issues with different combustive fuels (ethanol vs paraffin vs propane etc ...) . We shouldn't forget that if you burn something in a small closed space there is a risk of exposure to carbon monoxide. Now the said cup of tea will bring my CO meter up to 70-80 (ish) PPM. Won't kill you, but if that was your cup before going to sleep you'll feel pretty dreadful the next morning.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> "That's why you see so many propane stoves and ovens in "
> I knew the guy who almost died from the original "Hot Walter" propane heater in a boat shower. Passed out from the unvented CO produced by that unit, which knocked the company and the general design off the marine market.
> 
> So, maybe less CO, but still plenty enough to kill.


Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of that. I saw an on demand hot water heater on a recent survey that wasn't vented and it's removal was recommended. There's something missing to this story because NONE of the propane stoves that I've ever seen are vented. I kept a CO monitor on my boat that gives numerical readings and it never registered a single PPM from my propane stove. Once it registered a bit from my kerosene Aladdin lamp when I didn't have it adjusted properly, but then again, that's kerosene.

MedSailor


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

FinallySailing said:


> Carbon Monoxide Poisoning Deaths Associated with Camping -- Georgia, March 1999
> 
> Not a recent publication and perhaps the design of propane stoves has significantly improved to reduce the risk of incomplete combustion since. Thinking where most of the stuff,that budget sailors like myself use, is being made, I doubt it. Point that I wanted to make is: everybody seemed to worry about specific issues with different combustive fuels (ethanol vs paraffin vs propane etc ...) . We shouldn't forget that if you burn something in a small closed space there is a risk of exposure to carbon monoxide. Now the said cup of tea will bring my CO meter up to 70-80 (ish) PPM. Won't kill you, but if that was your cup before going to sleep you'll feel pretty dreadful the next morning.


will adding a dorade box and vent help that issue?


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

MedSailor said:


> Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of that. I saw an on demand hot water heater on a recent survey that wasn't vented and it's removal was recommended. *There's something missing to this story* because NONE of the propane stoves that I've ever seen are vented. I kept a CO monitor on my boat that gives numerical readings and it never registered a single PPM from my propane stove. Once it registered a bit from my kerosene Aladdin lamp when I didn't have it adjusted properly, but then again, that's kerosene.
> 
> MedSailor


Med: what's missing is makeup air. Demand hot water heaters tend to fire up like the afterburners on an F-14 Tomcat; they have to take cold water and heat it to 120F in about one second. And keep heating new water that comes thru & spends a mere eyeblink inside the heat exchanger. They use a lot of gas for short bursts of time, and they need lots of oxygen to make the stoichiometry work right. If you are breaking lots of carbon bonds w/out enuf oxygen present, you don't get CO2 -- you get CO. Incomplete combustion. While most boats are sufficiently vented and air-leaky to supply makeup air, a demand heater in a remote locker or under a cabinet might be oxygen starved. Our house uses a demand heater in a small basement, and I ran a standpipe into the attic to ensure it could pull sufficient makeup air. (That's why the vent on demand hot water heaters is often huge, too -- ours is 6". Lots of in, lots of out.)


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

bobmcgov said:


> Med: what's missing is makeup air. Demand hot water heaters tend to fire up like the afterburners on an F-14 Tomcat; they have to take cold water and heat it to 120F in about one second. And keep heating new water that comes thru & spends a mere eyeblink inside the heat exchanger. They use a lot of gas for short bursts of time, and they need lots of oxygen to make the stoichiometry work right. If you are breaking lots of carbon bonds w/out enuf oxygen present, you don't get CO2 -- you get CO. Incomplete combustion. While most boats are sufficiently vented and air-leaky to supply makeup air, a demand heater in a remote locker or under a cabinet might be oxygen starved. Our house uses a demand heater in a small basement, and I ran a standpipe into the attic to ensure it could pull sufficient makeup air. (That's why the vent on demand hot water heaters is often huge, too -- ours is 6". Lots of in, lots of out.)


Now THAT is an excellent and certainly plausible answer. Thank you. I also haven't heard the word stoichiometry since high school chemistry. It's got a nice ring to it.... 

Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense to me.

MedSailor


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

MedSailor said:


> Now THAT is an excellent and certainly plausible answer. Thank you. I also haven't heard the word stoichiometry since high school chemistry. It's got a nice ring to it....
> 
> Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense to me.
> 
> MedSailor


Sure. Looks like many household demand heaters sold today have powered-fan vents, even for vertical runs. I would bet that's because they are more concerned with *fast* combustion rather than *perfect* combustion, and there's a fair bit of CO as a byproduct. Also, the stack air doesn't have time to heat up, so you may not get good drafting. At any rate, I could see demand heaters being problematic on a boat.

Does your CO detector/meter run on batteries, or on 12V? That might be a piece of kit worth having.

Per the original topic: We just bought a solar cooker/oven for use in Mexico & have been messing about with it here in Wyoming. It's great for people with limited fuel who aren't in a hurry. I.e., cruizers. :laugher No noxious gasses, and you'd have to try pretty hard to make it explode. Bakes lovely bread.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

bobmcgov said:


> Sure.
> 
> Does your CO detector/meter run on batteries, or on 12V? That might be a piece of kit worth having.
> 
> Per the original topic: We just bought a solar cooker/oven for use in Mexico & have been messing about with it here in Wyoming. It's great for people with limited fuel who aren't in a hurry. I.e., cruizers. :laugher No noxious gasses, and you'd have to try pretty hard to make it explode. Bakes lovely bread.


That thing will give you melanoma in no time, and diabetes from all the bread. Sorry, unsafe too. 

The CO detector is a kiddie nighthawk I think. Battery powered. Looks like walmart has them for 20. I paid a little more for mine at Home Depot (maybe $35?) and it was a slightly different model, but not by much.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

what one SHOULD be able to find HERE in mexico and what one DOES find HERE in mexico SHOULD be same...HOWEVER there is no alternative fuel found in ferreterias which are hardware stores there is none in pemex. there is none in walmart nor costco. come to mexico and do OFFLINE and REAL research instead of sitting at your puter. you might find your god lies. not all you read on google is fact.
get down here and try to find your precious non propane stove fuel. 
migjt possibly find some in baja, but NO where else.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

hellosailor said:


> Christian, if you can't find 'kerosene' trying asking for it under it's British name.
> 
> Paraffin Oil.
> 
> ...


NOPE

its called gas...pure kerosene is a no go...tried to explain that

but thanks though...

I got really investigative for my motorcycle project and it was a no go...simply put kerosene like would be used for a cooker you couldt find...

diesel and the gas version of kerosene called solvente yes...it will work its just not feasible money wise...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I certainly had a stench initially when using my alcochol wick stove...that my folkboat came with...It quickly unsooted though and there are tricks to eliminate the initial stench...think it was you had to push the wick down and keep it soaked or something...cant remember that and clean the "burners" often

but it was something I could do and deal with...I was in berkeley in cool san fran weather most of the time for there it was fine...no issues...

but like all things its give or take or a compromise...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> I certainly had a stench initially when using my alcochol wick stove...that my folkboat came with...It quickly unsooted though and there are tricks to eliminate the initial stench...think it was you had to push the wick down and keep it soaked or something...cant remember that and clean the "burners" often
> 
> but it was something I could do and deal with...I was in berkeley in cool san fran weather most of the time for there it was fine...no issues...
> 
> but like all things its give or take or a compromise...


that sounds about right for a wick stove. i have heated the garage with kero heaters, the wick kind, for years. the wick has be properly saturated or they will smoke. of course, when they smoke, the CO levels go way up. they aren't all that safe, unless you make sure you have good ventilation, anyway....kero heaters of that sort, i mean.

anyhow, it makes sense that your wick alcohol heater would have opperated that way.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

but I still cooked in it...no need to change status quo on that boat as I didnt end up going anywhere with it...

like was pointed out a while back...

cheers


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Home Depot follows WalMart's pricing policy: Make a big deal over the sale items, charge full freight for everything else people might wander in for. BUT if you use a smartphone and a bar code app, and if you can find the same item elsewhere "locally" for less, HD also will give you the lower price plus another 10%. 

So a word to the frugal sailor...Light bulbs, often 25% less at Lowes, HD will give you the lower price plus 10%. Shower heads and plumbing? Bed Bath Beyond is often 25% less (and they're never cheap!) and HD will give you the discount plus.

But you do have to ask for it, unless you get lucky & the Depoid helping you is anxious to keep your business, and offers to check the price for you. (G)


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