# Red Sea Out ? Which way do we go ?



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

This is a Hyperthetical. 

To be honest I'm sure even sure I want to circumnavigate but for interest's sake.......

If the Somali Pirates have made transiting the Red Sea an unsafe proposition, what course would you take to circumnavigate ?

Obviously it means going around Good Hope but in which direction ?

The old timers sailed out of Europe across to Brazil then back to Cape Town before riding the forties/fifities to go under Australia and NewZealand to Cape Horn and back up to Europe.

With Panama we can now transit through the PC across the Pacific to Oz in lower latitudes , northerly course across the Indian sliding down the African Coast to CapeTown then Brazil and back to Europe that way. 

I'm guessing few would choose to go round the Horn. 

Thoughts ?


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

tdw said:


> ...With Panama we can now transit through the PC across the Pacific to Oz in lower latitudes , northerly course across the Indian sliding down the African Coast to CapeTown then Brazil and back to Europe that way.
> 
> I'm guessing few would choose to go round the Horn.
> 
> Thoughts ?


I like that route. Let's you stop in at St. Helena on the way home to stretch the stiff old legs.

The Horn would be quite a feat, though, wouldn't it?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> I like that route. Let's you stop in at St. Helena on the way home to stretch the stiff old legs.
> 
> The Horn would be quite a feat, though, wouldn't it?


Wouldn't it ever. I'm pretty sure I do not have the cojones to do it though, which is a pity cos the Straits of Magellan also fascinate me but even they have a pretty treacherous reputation.

Cannot remember which book it was but I remember reading an account of someone who sailed through the Straits , explored around the Chilean intercoastal waterways then one fine and sunny day dashed out, sailed around the Cape (island) and back in again. Sneaky.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Fuzzy...you're probably thinking of Beth Leonard and Evans Starzinger:
Christmas in Puerto Williams | Beth and Evans
Great sailors, writers and website!


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Charlie Cobra's boat Oh Joy has been around the Horn. Can't say that about very many boats.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

CharlieCobra hasn't though..... yet.


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## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

TDW,

yachts leaving from Fremantle have this problem / concern. I still see plenty of yachts planning on heading via the Red Sea, however I'm starting to see a few planning on heading the other way.

This yacht from my club is circumnavigating via the Horn and Cape Town.

Pachuca Circumnavigation

If you click on the 2007 link and scroll down about half way, he sets out the itinery. I think he picked the right boat, an S&S39. They are currently in NZ aftering having a "fun" Tasman crossing.

I also know of a couple planning on heading accross the GAB to NZ, then up through the South Pacific and across the top, maybe including Darwin - Indonesia rally. Sounds better than dodging pirates 

Ilenart


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## Robby Barlow (Apr 23, 2006)

> Obviously it means going around Good Hope but in which direction ?


TDW...where would you be coming from?


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

The prevaling winds and currents are from West to East down there at the bottom of the world.


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## soulesailor (Nov 18, 2007)

If you went west to east below Africa wouldn't that limit you to going east down in the forties/fifties the entire rest of the way around? You'd miss out on all the cruising in the tropical belt that seems so cool.


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## gc1111 (May 13, 2004)

For some good routing ideas, look at Eric Forsyth's website Yacht Fiona Home Page - Yacht, Fiona, Forsyth, Sailing, Sail, Voyage, YachtFiona, Ocean Cruising.

I know Eric from my local community. My big adventure was circumnavigating the Caribbean one winter. The same winter he circumnavagated South America


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Cam - Dead right , it was in one of there books wasn't it ? I couldn't remember who it was. Great stuff. I really like those two. Bit down to earth and a real couple, not just a bloke dragging a woman around. I like their honesty as well. Beth is quite happy to say where she thinks their old boat was better than Hawk.

Robby - If , and I emphasise the IF, cos I am not at all convinced I could do it , I'd be coming west to east from Australia. To be honest, while I'd love to explore the Straits of Magellon and Chile I think that would do me. No way would I do a non stopper across the southern ocean/southern pacific. I may be insane but I am not mad.

This was a good thread to start. Some good reading to be had out this. Thanks everyone.


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## mazzy (Mar 11, 2006)

I read a book by Robert Ashton, who went around the Horn East to West. Spent a lot of time in Durban and Cape Town before doing it, if I recall.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

tdw said:


> With Panama we can now transit through the PC across the Pacific to Oz in lower latitudes , northerly course across the Indian sliding down the African Coast to CapeTown then Brazil and back to Europe that way.


I guess it depends on the purpose of the circumnav. If it's to get around as quickly as possible or for a commercial delivery then the west to east around the bottom is the way.

But if it's cruising on your mind then the east/west route is the quintessential cruising route. Now with North Africa such an issue of safety, it is necessary to go around South Africa and that has it's own issues (Agulhus Stream) to deal with.

I have done a west/east across the top of the Indian Ocean and would never repeat it (personal opinion) but recalling the conditions on that voyage, I would have been thrilled to be going the other way.

I now live in NZ so FWIW here is my chosen route (and I intend doing it in 5 or six years time):

NZ to New Cal then to Darwin, on to Bali and cruise Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia.
Down to Cocos (maybe and only because I've heard terrific reports on the place and to break a long voyage), across to Mauritius (I've already done Seychelles) and then to South Africa (Durban then Cape Town)
St Helena, Ascension, Trinidad and then MAYBE up into the Caribbean and on to Panama, else,
Aruba and Panama Canal
Galapagos, Marquesas, Tuamotus and the rest of French Polynesia (Bora Bora, Tahiti, Moorea, this is paradise)
Samoa, Tonga, Fiji and home.
It is a pity that the Somali issue is essentially preventing cruisers from doing the Suez and Med because that is a better route through the Atlantic islands en route to Panama.

Andre


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Concerning the Somali issue: Is hugging the coast of Yemen not feasible? Or does the piracy problem extend from Somalia to Yemen?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

sailhog said:


> Concerning the Somali issue: Is hugging the coast of Yemen not feasible? Or does the piracy problem extend from Somalia to Yemen?


Rather than giving Yemen a bit of a hug you could try giving a Somali Pirate a Jolly Rogering !!  That's one way to do the Red Sea Root.

Hog, if you look on NoonSite they have a proposed route to avoid Somalia and it pretty much goes down the up close and friendly with Yemen way.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

The situation is too fluid to predict for us, who are, in fact, planning a five-year circ, but my thoughts run along these lines if the Red Sea is still dangerous:

*Toronto-Toronto Circumnavigation*

Year 0 (summer prior to leaving): Shakedown cruise to Nova Scotia in the early summer. Deliberately look for heavy weather in my own "home waters", so to speak. Break things. Fix things. See what works, what doesn't, and get needed sea hours for everyone (me, wife, nine to 10 year old son).

Either overwinter in Halifax to dash south in the spring, or return to Toronto to overwinter aboard (while ensuring the "tenant mix" in the house is correct and I don't need to pay for a new roof or plumbing...).

Year 1: Leave either Halifax or Toronto in early June. Head to Western Caribbean before hurricane season spins up. Try to transit Canal into Pacific by September/October.

Head south via Cocos, Galapagos, Marquesas, Cooks, etc. No need to rush.

Year 2: From Fiji or Tonga, head to New Zealand. Probably stop for six months to explore, coastal cruise and haul out for repairs.

Year 3: Australia/PNG/Torres Strait/South Indian Ocean. See Maldives before they sink; consider Sri Lanka. Go in Mauritius or Madagascar, and if able, finish year in Cape Town.

Year 4: South Atlantic Islands...possibly divert to Argentina/Falklands, more likely go Tristan/Ascension, etc. to easternmost Brazil and then into Caribbean for the leisurely look we missed the first time. Haul out in Trinidad.

Year 5: Head north in spring and do a trans-Atlantic circ after "crossing the outbound path" off New York or Halifax. Go to Ireland, Wales (relatives) and then the Bay of Biscay down to Lisbon to show Alex how proper sailing is done (the odd thing is Fred would be about 19 at this point...). Then to Gibraltar, Spain, Madeira, Azores and across the Atlantic to Bahamas and then back north to New York and up the canals to Lake Ontario and home. Inform one set of tenants that it's time to go, and keep the other set for "cash flow".

Year 6: Haul boat, repair, repaint and remove all personal gear and broken hardware. Sail out the St. Lawrence and trans-Atlantic to Europe (France, Holland, northern Germany), where they appreciate steel boats that have done this sort of thing. Sell the boat, return to pay off the mortgage (I may do this ahead of time just to be done with it, but that means relying more on tenants to supply working money), and either retrieve my classic plastic 33 footer currently on loan, or sell it and start shopping for a Lake Ontario cruiser.

Of course, if I can make money while sailing, I might never return. But I'd probably go funny in the head.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Valiente,
Seems like a plan. I keep forgetting you are East not West coast.

Ignoring the pirates for the moment it is still a question as to which route to take past Africa. 

What is the attraction of going Red Sea/Suez ? Easier sailing , yes. Gives you a route through the Med without having to do a circuit, would enable visiting Egypt and Israel, gets you to Greece/Turkey.... 

That might decide it for me cos I have no real desire to do a Med circuit as such. I'd like to visit France/Italy/Spain but in reality unless it's done off season these places are just too crowded for my liking and my main thrust in that area would be Portugal and the Biscay coast of Spain. If we do the Med in summer then it's really not feasible to hit the Atlantic in European winter. So I guess if one was to hit the Western Med in Autumn, moving across to Spain come Spring , Portugal late Spring getting up to the Biscay Coast in summer. 

hmm..something like that anyway...

Otherwise round the Cape. Do I really want to see Africa ? Not sure. Would love to sail up the West Coast but everyone says that is totally impractical.

Fun to think about.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Valiente said:


> Of course, if I can make money while sailing, I might never return. *But I'd probably go funny in the head.*


Hey we all thought that was already taking place.

Just kidding Val...

Sounds like a Great plan


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Don't mean to go too far off topic, but I've heard that the Med has some piracy problems of its own. My information is a bit dated, stretching way back to the late 1980s, but I'd heard that there'd been some pretty bold attacks on relatively large vessels.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Valiente said:


> Year 3: Australia/PNG/Torres Strait/South Indian Ocean. See Maldives before they sink; consider Sri Lanka. Go in Mauritius or Madagascar, and if able, finish year in Cape Town.


You'll probably have had your fill of tropical islands by this time but . . . . .

If you're going to Maldives, you have to try and see this place. It's an archapelago called Chagos and hangs down south of the Maldives group, it is the same ridge in the ocean floor and has the same time line for disappearing as Maldives. It is only reached by yachts no harbours, airlines, railway stations  so very few ever get to see it.










As can be seen from the scale (bottom left) this is a *big* coral ring, untouched by human habitation and pristinely beautiful. A must-see for anyone passing that way (and it's on the way from Maldives to Mauritius as well  )

Andre


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

From what I read there has been a general toughening up on yachts visiting Chagos due to both the British problem with the original occupants who were unceremonioulsy dispossessed of the homeland and the fat that Chagos is so close to Diego Garcia.

Nonetheless from what I have been told, it is a no miss destination on any voyage across the Indian.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Maybe things have changed in the past few years but in 2004 it was still common for the Royal Navy to send a boat to Chagos periodically (randomly) to do a cursory check on the documentation of the vesels visiting at the time and generally the navy crew would hold a BBQ for the yachties before leaving. All very friendly and civilised. As I say, that may have changed but it has been that way for many years.

Diego Garcia is a different matter altogether. A British territory leased to the US military, this island is strictly out of bounds to yachties and access to it would require a matter of life or death and even then access is not a given. Don't happen on Diego Garcia by accident - you will definitely not be welcomed.

Andre


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Wombat, if you want to transit the Somailian coast, do it under a French flag.

Quite recently the French got pissed off by Somalian pirate demands for ransom for some French yachties. Apparerntly there are some 150 foreigners being held hostage for ransom by various pirates, and the French responded by sending a commando group, liberating their citizens, and killing a couple of pirates.

Vive la France!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Andre,
Have a look at NoonSite. They have somethingof an update. I'm not saying that Chagos is out, only that they have brought in new regulations, limiting where you can anchor and how long you can stay. If I was out that way it would be most definitely on my list of places to stop.

Diego Garcia holds about as much interest for me as Guatanamo Bay or however its spelt. 

HelloSailor......bugger that, I have no desire whatsoever to come within shooting range of any pirates thanks very much. The one constant in the old Wombat's life has been my total devotion to the principles of abject cowardice.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Wombat:

My Dad and his wife HATED their transit up the Red Sea around 10 years ago.. Pirates or no Pirates... Nasty reefs, head winds, and chop along with an unstable political situation.

When they arrived in Ashkelon, Israel, my Dad climbed the mast with a hose to wash the red dirt out of the sails. He said it looked like blood running down.

So, if you miss the Red Sea, I imagine you aren't missing much..

David


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

tdw said:


> Valiente,
> 
> That might decide it for me cos I have no real desire to do a Med circuit as such. I'd like to visit France/Italy/Spain but in reality unless it's done off season these places are just too crowded for my liking and my main thrust in that area would be Portugal and the Biscay coast of Spain. If we do the Med in summer then it's really not feasible to hit the Atlantic in European winter. So I guess if one was to hit the Western Med in Autumn, moving across to Spain come Spring , Portugal late Spring getting up to the Biscay Coast in summer.


I strongly recommend an old set of Admiralty Charts or the U.S. Pilots (free, but you really want to know someone with a poster-sized digital printer) and Jimmy Cornell's "World Cruising Routes", which is new in its sixth edition.

It's pretty critical unless you are a glutton for punishment to try to time passages for weather and routes for the maximum amount of favoured wind direction, I think, and route planning of Cornell's type (plus the aforementioned pilot charts) aids this immensely.

From Australia, you could tack back and forth in the Roaring 40s until Cape of Good Hope, but I wouldn't want to be you or your rigging or your stores. But it is the shortest route.

More likely is going around Queensland/Torres Strait/northern South Indian Ocean to Mozambique and then coastal until South Africa. Follow a similar route to me, but again, if you want to see Portugal, the easy, time-consuming way is circle around the Atlantic using the westerlies to get you there, instead of fighting the trades from 5 N to 37 N (where Portugal is). That part of Africa is ill-serviced where it isn't actually desert, with few ports and the chance of sandstorms reaching amazingly far into the ocean.

If you go to Portugal first, Spain second, you can go west to east in the Med, with only the "Levanter" to worry about. You could then transit the Red Sea north to south (with the prevailing winds) in fast convoy...I am convinced that many of the pirated yachts are going south to north, having to tack or motoring in dead air...both situations in which they are visible to speedboats and in which the conditions favour a direct attack. Sailboats thrive in three metre waves and 30 knots...weather that would make a Somali puke.

Once into the Indian Ocean, you can take the "other" monsoon practically back to Oz.

Just my suggestions based on what I've read.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Omatako said:


> If you're going to Maldives, you have to try and see this place.
> Andre


Thanks, Andre. I know of Chagos from a great book of interest to sailors only as a byproduct of being a great read. It's called "Outposts" by Simon Winchester, who writes these days more popular books on Krakatoa, etc.

Written in the '80s, it's about the last colonial bits of the UK, most of which are tiny islands too isolated to self-govern (or too smart to want to stop the supplemental cheques).

Outposts: Journeys to the Surviving Relics of the British Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's information on the huge, little-visited area, including the very sad story of Diego Garcia: British Indian Ocean Territory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Cruisingdreamspress (Apr 8, 2008)

*To Red Sea or no*

I had to make that decision on my 7 year solo voyage around the world. I choose the Red Sea for the following reasons: I wanted to see Europe and sail in the "wine dark sea". Sailing around Africa and then fighting head winds back to the Straights of Gibraltar did not sound enticing. I also noted that the chart off Madagascar mentioned "60 foot waves in this area". After choosing the Red Sea route I had to decide the best way to sail there and made that decision at Cocos Keeling Island. I could have sailed south to the Chagos and enjoyed it, but to reach the Red Sea I would then need to sail to Mombasa, Kenya, then along the Somali coast with Socotra on starboard. The problems with Somalia is well know and I found it interesting that the chart for Socatra stated, " stay 100 miles away from the island to avoid pirates."

I have replied on Pirates in another thread. Being alone, I had close encounters with them. However, cruising boats by the hundreds transit these waters every year with no problem. In hotspots, buddy boating is the way to go. A small flotilla of 3 or more boats keeps everyone safe. When I went through in 2000, the attackers were Yemen pirates, not Somali.

One final note, Sailing the Red Sea single handed was the most grueling experiencee of my life.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

It seems to me that my feelings against the Red Sea route (which go beyond the pirate thing) are pretty much agreed with. 

There are parts of the Med I'd like to see but honestly I don't think they are top of my list of priorities. 

If I was, and again I stress it's a big IF, to go for a circumnavigation I'd do the Africa route (avoiding the area renowned for those huge rogue waves) through CapeTown then head across the Atlantic to Brazil and cut back to the Azores. That's the way they did it in the old days and it seems to me it still makes sense. 

Mark V, you have excellent taste in reading material by the sound of things. Winchester is very good. I loved Outposts and his books on The Oxford English Dictionary (The Professor and the Madman and The Meaning of Everything) are wonderful. For me Winchester is a bit of a Bill Bryson, Jonathan Raban or Mark Kurlansky. There are deeper authors no doubt but they are all great writers who know how to tell a tale in a very readable fashion.

The story of Diego Garcia is indeed a sad one.

I've got a copy of Ocean Passages. It's quite old but gee its fun to pull out and peruse.

West Africa is a 'forget about it'. No ports to speak of. Lousy conditions for sailing and as you say the sand storms. Yoiks. I'm sure it would be fascinating to visit but some things fall into the too hard basket. Maybe in a Nordhavn.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

tdw said:


> If I was, and again I stress it's a big IF, to go for a circumnavigation I'd do the Africa route (avoiding the area renowned for those huge rogue waves) through CapeTown


The rogues are relatively easy to avoid. Whilst not as friendly as the coast around the UK or other well developed countries, SA has three ports between Durban and Cape Town and using the weather windows (well documented) wisely, it is an easy journey hugging the coast line and going out into the Agulhas Stream only when you KNOW there will be a tail wind.

Whilst the current is daunting as a home of rogue waves, it is a substantial push, up to and occasonally better than 4 knots and if you're sure of the weather and have a good look at the infra red pics that are available when planning, it adds considerable mileage to your day's run.

Andre


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Well, if you can convince Alex to take _Giulietta _to Greece...heh, heh.

Yes, I have books by all those authors, and you would probably like my hardcovers from the '50s and '60s by the Smeetons, the Hiscocks, Roth, Street and other pioneers of cruising. They went out before EPIRB, GPS, SAR, RADAR, electric windlasses, refrigeration and other toys we now find essential to cruising, and to top it off, there were few if any "amenities" at the places they went to, and if you screwed up, you died.

A close reading of such tales reveals a lot of positive attitude and seamanship, but also a certain inventiveness and practicality a lot of us have lost. Most of these people were in early middle age and had been in the thick of the Second World War, and so very much wanted to "make their own way" in a world that was getting politically colder...because I suspect they worried that the world wouldn't exist into their old age.

Rounding Cape of Good Hope seems to be a matter of timing and waiting for a break in the low pressure zones from the South Atlantic, but it can be done, if you are careful and patient. The longest stretch is about 250 NM, I believe, in which you are shot out into the ocean by the Agulhas Current, which won't be piling up if you go in right _after _a westerly storm system. After Cape Town, you can head well offshore, or pop in to Walvis Bay in Namibia to shorten the run to Tristan, etc.

As the currents take you more or less to Brazil anyway, it seems crazy not to go a couple of hundred miles up the Amazon...you can coast back down.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Omatako said:


> The rogues are relatively easy to avoid. Whilst not as friendly as the coast around the UK or other well developed countries, SA has three ports between Durban and Cape Town and using the weather windows (well documented) wisely, it is an easy journey hugging the coast line and going out into the Agulhas Stream only when you KNOW there will be a tail wind.


That was odd! I learned about that current from my father, who said going from Durban to Cape Town in good weather was a pleasure because you saved a lot of fuel in the current just keeping the engines ticking at low RPM for steerage.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Valiente said:


> Well, if you can convince Alex to take _Giulietta _to Greece...heh, heh.
> 
> Yes, I have books by all those authors, and you would probably like my hardcovers from the '50s and '60s by the Smeetons, the Hiscocks, Roth, Street and other pioneers of cruising. They went out before EPIRB, GPS, SAR, RADAR, electric windlasses, refrigeration and other toys we now find essential to cruising, and to top it off, there were few if any "amenities" at the places they went to, and if you screwed up, you died.
> 
> ...


Also the fella who went round the Cape with the Smeetons on the first occasion they pitchpoled Tzu Hang....Canadian....book not to hand....he sailed a tiny yawl by the name of Trekka....John Guswell.

Yankee. The mountain climbing schooner.

Moitessier of course.

Hiscocks books were akin to bibles. Always have liked Laurent Giles' designs and although she wasn't I'll always think of Wanderer III as the perfect small cruiser.

We moved house a few years back and a lot of my old sailing books went into storage. My mistake in putting them there but I do need to get them out. Ms W however may well commence divorce proceedings if the piles of books get any higher. Shall we say that in our place we don't so much have coffee table books as coffee tables of books. I do have Street and Roth to hand however.

Had to go visit my parents today and there is a great little second hand book store in the village they live near. Found a copy of a thing called "The Boat Who Wouldn't Float" by Farley Mowat. From your part of the world I believe. Some other stuff as well, including Eric Newby's "On the Shores of the Mediterranean". He was good was Newby. Can't resist second hand book stores. Love 'em.

Ref the Amazon....I've a fascination with rivers, I guess cos Australia doesn't have all that many deep navigable streams and what we do have usually have inconveniently placed low bridges. Alex's recent river cruise was a beauty. An Amazon cruise would be quite something, hopefully not meeting Peter Blake's fate. I have no idea if the delta is passable by a keel boat but the Mekong would also be fascinating. In Oz we have a couple up in the North West on the Kimberley Coast and of course Tasmania has the Gordon and Franklin to name but one system.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I'll have to take photos of my sailing book shelves. We've obviously got the same tastes and respect for our cruising forebears, who seemed to think nothing of making a forestay out of some hawser and a handy-billy, with maybe a turnbuckle as a frill.

You should check out Sou'west in Wanderer IV, about how daunting the Hiscocks found their steel 47-footer in the late '60s, early '70s. Roth says much the same when he sold his Santa Cruz 50 for a Wauquiez Pretorian 35 for cruising. While part of this was probably advancing years in both cases, I think the axiom of "buy the least one of you can handle in an adverse situation" comes into play. I was looking seriously at 45 footers in steel, but I settled on 40 (with a full keel for tankage and drying out purposes) because that's about the limit my rather petite, if strong, wife can handle, not to mention my son, who won't weigh 35 kilos by the time we go.

Strangely, I have room aboard for everything but the books I want to bring, and so I am restricting myself to 100 or so "sailing/technical/mechanical/reference" books, and 50 "lending/trading library paperbacks". One of my larger woodworking tasks in the next couple of years will be creating lightweight but strong and secure bookshelves for the boat, because we have to stow the kid's educational papers, which are going to include textbooks.

As for the Amazon, I believe it's deep enough hundreds of miles up for any kind of keelboat, even Alex's...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Valiente said:


> I'll have to take photos of my sailing book shelves. We've obviously got the same tastes and respect for our cruising forebears, who seemed to think nothing of making a forestay out of some hawser and a handy-billy, with maybe a turnbuckle as a frill.
> 
> You should check out Sou'west in Wanderer IV, about how daunting the Hiscocks found their steel 47-footer in the late '60s, early '70s. Roth says much the same when he sold his Santa Cruz 50 for a Wauquiez Pretorian 35 for cruising. While part of this was probably advancing years in both cases, I think the axiom of "buy the least one of you can handle in an adverse situation" comes into play. I was looking seriously at 45 footers in steel, but I settled on 40 (with a full keel for tankage and drying out purposes) because that's about the limit my rather petite, if strong, wife can handle, not to mention my son, who won't weigh 35 kilos by the time we go.
> 
> ...


Shelves ? You have shelves ? Looxury. We just have stacks.....trouble is I also like art ...... paintings and books are in constant conflict for wall space.

The Hiscocks were an amazing duo. Eric openly admitted that Wanderer IV was too much for him and he longed to go back to his much loved WIII. Indeed at the first opportunity he went smaller again with WV. Eric of course had terribly trouble with his eyes and eventually was completely blind but Susan and he would still go sailing together. When he died Susan still sailed Wanderer V for as long as she was physically able.

Michel and Jane de Ridder are another interesting couple. Forty years in the same boat. Sadly they didn't ever write any books but then they liked cruising for the cruisings sake and were never into round the globe stuff so I guess they were not all that marketable.
SetSail.com - the serious cruising sailor's website

The discussion on boat size is a a perennial. I think we are close to agreement in that I too see 40' as pretty much the limit. The Passport 42 we almost bought earlier this year was right on the verge of being too big for us. LOA is not the only parameter of course but you know where I'm coming from.

Of the current crop I must say that I like Beth Leonard and Evans Starzinger but none of the modern crew tell a yarn like the old guys.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Valiente said:


> That was odd! I learned about that current from my father, who said going from Durban to Cape Town in good weather was a pleasure because you saved a lot of fuel in the current just keeping the engines ticking at low RPM for steerage.


Your father was correct but the problem is that in the northern part (Durban to East London and as far sometimes as Port Elizabeth), the weather windows are short and "good weather" cannot be relied on for long. There is a constant procession of low pressure cells moving up the coast that cause violent westerly "busters" and if you're in the current when these beauties come along, you're likely to get a very abrupt lesson in survival.

I sailed this coast for many years and one thing that was constantly on every sailor's mind is "when is that low going to arrive". I have sailing friends who got caught in these conditions during a coastal race and tell stories of how their boat's keel broke free of the water because of the steepness of a wave, slid the boat down sideways down the face of the wave and rolled the boat like a top when the keel went in in the trough. This excerpt from the race website:

_Eventually the entire fleet was forced to return to Durban as conditions became highly dangerous. A number of yachts were rolled, some did 360 degree rolls, others were demasted, two sunk, one ran aground and one went missing. Roller Ball, Transformer, Fantasy, Reduction Gunnadoo and Thekweni were all dismasted. Spiffero and Cape of Good Hope were sunk while Sensation was beached. The real tragedy was the loss of Siggie Eichholtx's boat Rubicon and her crew of which no trace has ever been found. Siggie was an exceptionally experienced yachtsman who was particularly safety conscious._

In the case of the yacht Sensation, it was said at the time that the skipper/owner of this high-quality purpose built racer (one Neil Bailey) literally sailed the boat up the beach because it was the only way he could guarantee the survival of his crew.

There have been many yachts and large ships seriously damaged and lost in this current. Suffice to say, the benefits of a fast southerly passage needs to be weighed up against a very considerable risk of being caught out in the current in dodgy conditions.

Andre


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Thanks, Andre...so it's roll the dice with the Southern Ocean's little ways or rape and murder with the Red Sea pirates?

Hi diddly dee, a sailor's life for me...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Andre,
Am I right in thinking that there are no available ports twixt Durban and East London, East London and Port Elizabeth ?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Crappy map, but it doesn't look promising.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

tdw said:


> Andre,
> Am I right in thinking that there are no available ports twixt Durban and East London, East London and Port Elizabeth ?


Pretty much. As Val's map depicts, not a lot there. This pic shows the distances from port to port:










The other port on the way to Cape Town is Mossel Bay. The worst stretch is Durban to East London. From about 80 miles south of Durban there is not even a town, leave alone a port. If you have a problem here and manage to swim ashore, you have a mother of a walk just to get to a point of habitation. It's an area called the Wild Coast and for very good reason.

But to soften Val's note, once you're past Port Elizabeth the Agulhas current heads off-shore and it is no longer a problem so if you adhere to local knowledge, pay attention to the weather windows, it isn't really a "dice with the Southern Ocean" and can actually be a pleasant trip  . Just don't get clever.

Andre


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Andre,
As I thought or feared. Durban to East London is roughly a 260nm haul. From what I read prevailing winds in summer are SE, in winter W or NW. Given that course needed to be said is reaching most of the way so two days should do it, give or take half a day. 
So its wait for the best predicted window and hope you don't get caught short. Bit like sailing from Sydney to Hobart but potentially even nastier.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

That's two full-bore days, unless you're lucky with the wind and can keep 6 knots plus via motor and sail. To my knowledge, getting a two and a half day gap in the low-pressure systems would be unusual there, so Andre, would you suggest leaving on the tail end of a low, motoring inshore if need be, and then sailing as the SE flow re-establishes itself?

There's no way I would try long tacks into a westerly in that area...I'd want a reaching wind or better to keep me on the happy side of the current.

Oh, and Mr. Wombat...I was reading about a South African shark, the bull shark, that is also found in fresh water up the Amazon as far as bloody Peru, which indicates persistence, I must say.

This augurs well for taking a yacht a thousand miles or so into the interior, and less well for taking a swim in the river, where the little bastards that go up the nether regions are plentiful.

Iquitos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Valiente said:


> That's two full-bore days, unless you're lucky with the wind and can keep 6 knots plus via motor and sail. To my knowledge, getting a two and a half day gap in the low-pressure systems would be unusual there, so Andre, would you suggest leaving on the tail end of a low, motoring inshore if need be, and then sailing as the SE flow re-establishes itself?


You got it!

When we weren't racing we would wait for a low to go through, let the wind settle down to 15 - 20 then leave. Gives you a day or so before the wind shifts to a NE which it always does as the next cell comes along. At that point, out into the current  and run fast and you will generally get to East London before the next low. And the timing isn't as critical as the above just sounded.

The current is easy to find - a thermometer will record a temp increase of several degrees as you enter the stream  . Inshore is only good if the wind is from the SW because the inshore waters often have counter eddies that slow you down quite a lot. This depends on how close to shore the stream gets at the time (moves constantly).

From EL to PE is a lot less dramatic because the current already starts peeling away from the coast.

Andre


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## SallyH (Apr 19, 2007)

Hi Guys

Some information about sailing down the S African coast is on the Cruising Wiki HERE

Some info on Chagos (Indian Ocean) is HERE

The Cape of Good Hope route is a good alternative to the Red Sea.

Sal


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Valiente said:


> That's two full-bore days, unless you're lucky with the wind and can keep 6 knots plus via motor and sail. To my knowledge, getting a two and a half day gap in the low-pressure systems would be unusual there, so Andre, would you suggest leaving on the tail end of a low, motoring inshore if need be, and then sailing as the SE flow re-establishes itself?
> 
> There's no way I would try long tacks into a westerly in that area...I'd want a reaching wind or better to keep me on the happy side of the current.
> 
> ...


We get Bull Sharks in Sydney Harbour backwaters. Nasty little buggers as well. Not as big as a Great White so not quite as deadly but they do like to have a nip or two.

I'd reckon the Amazon trip would have to be a bottler. Hot and sticky, humid as hell but interesting ? Very.

Now the South African rivers all look like they have pretty savage and totally impassable bars but what about further north ? Hmm..need to do a study on African Rivers. Could be fun. The study I mean.

ps - thank you SallyH.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

tdw said:


> Now the South African rivers all look like they have pretty savage and totally impassable bars but what about further north ? Hmm..need to do a study on African Rivers. Could be fun. The study I mean.
> 
> ps - thank you SallyH.


OK so if you're going to have fun doing the study then I'll leave you to it. Else I can run over it for you.  Let us know what you find.

Oh, and thanks Sally.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Omatako said:


> OK so if you're going to have fun doing the study then I'll leave you to it. Else I can run over it for you.  Let us know what you find.
> 
> Oh, and thanks Sally.


Andre,
Leave it with me over the wekend. It's all very well and good being spoon fed but it is good to do some looking up eh ?

I'll probably pepper you with questions on Monday or so.

Cheers

TD


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## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

Just remember when you're cruising you have all the time in the world and can wait for a perfect weather window. That is a difference with the race earlier mentioned with the bad outcomes. If the weather prediction changes while you're out there, simply turn around.

While in South Africa you have a whole world of exploring to do. The Kruger National Park, the Kalahari, even Namibia. I lived in Namibia for a year and it was the most fascinating place I've ever been. Zimbabwe is now a mess but Mozambique is developing again. I promise you, you will not lack for places to go and things to see. Cape Town is one of the most beautiful cities in the world.
I guess the important thing is not to rush around that coast when the prediction is not good.

If my dream comes reality and Im ready to circ - I will not even consider the Red Sea. Cape of Good Hope here I come.....(in a while...). Of course I've got family to wave to on shore...

M Murphy


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## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

*Good Hope*

One more thing: The trip from Cape Town to the Caribbean is supposed to be one of the quintessential great downwind runs. I'm going to help a friend of mine deliver his new cat from Cape Town to the Caribbean Nov/Dec 2009 and can't wait.
Magnus


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Yes, this is true. The Red Sea itself, even absent pirates, is supposed to be a dirty, indifferently charted upwind slog if you are going northbound, with two days of bribery in the Suez. While there are things I would love to see in Yemen and Oman, for instance, I also want to see South Africa before it turns into another failed, completely lawless African state (which I sincerely hope, after all its struggles, will be the case, but I think it's 50/50 at the moment).

But my reading has persuaded me that the islands of the South Atlantic are more than waypoints...they are destinations in and of themselves...and that you could easily do a couple of them from Cape Town to Trinidad, etc. or that you could spend a year doing a Great Circle of the South Atlantic and include Argentina, Patagonia and the Falklands, which also opens the door for a "wrong way" around Cape Horn, if so inclined.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Valiente said:


> Yes, this is true. The Red Sea itself, even absent pirates, is supposed to be a dirty, indifferently charted upwind slog if you are going northbound, with two days of bribery in the Suez. While there are things I would love to see in Yemen and Oman, for instance, I also want to see South Africa before it turns into another failed, completely lawless African state (which I sincerely hope, after all its struggles, will be the case, but I think it's 50/50 at the moment).
> 
> But my reading has persuaded me that the islands of the South Atlantic are more than waypoints...they are destinations in and of themselves...and that you could easily do a couple of them from Cape Town to Trinidad, etc. or that you could spend a year doing a Great Circle of the South Atlantic and include Argentina, Patagonia and the Falklands, which also opens the door for a "wrong way" around Cape Horn, if so inclined.


and I sincerely hope that missing out "not" was a typo .....

As for the rest, heartily agree. Seems to me the only reason most people take the Red Sea route is convenience, I've rarely heard anyone say how much they enjoyed the trip. Yep, there are points of interest but for me I don't think they outweigh the negatives.

Falklands, Patagonia etc are hasrh places to visit I'm sure but very very tempting if getting away from it all is the go. For us it most certainly is.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

magnusmurphy said:


> Just remember when you're cruising you have all the time in the world and can wait for a perfect weather window. That is a difference with the race earlier mentioned with the bad outcomes. If the weather prediction changes while you're out there, simply turn around.


Yes there is the choice to wait but as I may have mentioned, the weather windows are short for a nearly 300nm trip. Turning around isn't as attractive as it seems. You may now be running off the wind but very steep, very tall waves are still very steep, very tall waves no matter what course you're steering. Just stay out of the current - it's easy 



magnusmurphy said:


> If my dream comes reality and Im ready to circ - I will not even consider the Red Sea. Cape of Good Hope here I come.....(in a while...).


No doubt about it, pirates or no pirates.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Valiente said:


> I also want to see South Africa before it turns into another failed, completely lawless African state


You'd better hurry . . . . .

*South African President Mbeki resigns *

*Thabo Mbeki tells the nation in a televised address Sunday*









updated 5:24 p.m. ET Sept. 21, 2008

CAPE TOWN, South Africa - South African President Thabo Mbeki told the nation Sunday that he had resigned, having lost a power struggle to a rival tainted by allegations of corruption but poised now to lead the country.

Just kidding - if you went before this time next year, everything should be OK


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

tdw said:


> and I sincerely hope that missing out "not" was a typo .....
> 
> As for the rest, heartily agree. Seems to me the only reason most people take the Red Sea route is convenience, I've rarely heard anyone say how much they enjoyed the trip. Yep, there are points of interest but for me I don't think they outweigh the negatives.
> 
> Falklands, Patagonia etc are hasrh places to visit I'm sure but very very tempting if getting away from it all is the go. For us it most certainly is.


Yes, the missing "not" was a typo, and I hope a rare one. My habit of writing ornate, 19th-century sentences, replete with sub-clauses, sometimes trips me up, particularly when I'm typing at top speed.

Missing the Red Sea probably means, in the context of a circ, missing the Med, particularly the very nice cruising grounds of Turkey and places like Malta. In a way, however, I would prefer a different sort of boat for the Med, less mine and more Alex's, because you can expect a lot of working to windward.

Harsh, on the other hand, doesn't bother me at all. The Falklands never get warm, it's true, but they also never get as cold as Toronto, which is one of the warmer Canadian cities. A Falklands winter is a southern Canadian late November...or was, until global warming kicked in. Now I wear shorts until Dec. 1...but I digress.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Valiente said:


> Yes, the missing "not" was a typo, and I hope a rare one. My habit of writing ornate, 19th-century sentences, replete with sub-clauses, sometimes trips me up, particularly when I'm typing at top speed.
> 
> Missing the Red Sea probably means, in the context of a circ, missing the Med, particularly the very nice cruising grounds of Turkey and places like Malta. In a way, however, I would prefer a different sort of boat for the Med, less mine and more Alex's, because you can expect a lot of working to windward.
> 
> Harsh, on the other hand, doesn't bother me at all. The Falklands never get warm, it's true, but they also never get as cold as Toronto, which is one of the warmer Canadian cities. A Falklands winter is a southern Canadian late November...or was, until global warming kicked in. Now I wear shorts until Dec. 1...but I digress.


Shhh,,,,heaven's sake man.....mentioning G***** W****** is likely to set bloody Sway off and you know it can't be good for his poor old ticker....

I really do hope SA doesn't go all Zimbabwe on us. That would be so sad after all the crap of teh last few decades but sometimes one really has to worry about Africa. You ever read Doris Lessing's Shikasta ? Heavy.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

No, but if that's her memoir of growing up colonial, I heard a long review of it on the CBC. Sounds interesting. I'm going to post this elsewhere, but it pertains here:

The Associated Press: US official: 3 pirates may be dead in shootout

If the navies of the world, China and Russia definitely included, used this benighted country for target practice for a year or two, and reinstated hangings off whatever passes for a yardarm these days, the Red Sea might be pirate-free pretty rapidly. Why attack the Somali mainland? Because that's where the "motherships" dock, and that's where there are probably a dozen land-based crew for every man with an AK-47 in a speedboat making it happen. These jokers are highly organized and technologically savvy, even if their satphone Internet uplinks are powered by gas gensets in the back of 30 year old Toyota pickups and few of them remember when Somalia had a government. Note that "the pirates have a spokesman". Coming soon: a website representing the pirate point of view, plus individual pirate blogs: "What a day! My gun nearly jammed stitching that French yacht! Proper maintenance is tough in a sand pile!"

Going very hard on them still wouldn't end Egyptian corruption, but that's thousands of years older.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Valiente said:


> No, but if that's her memoir of growing up colonial, I heard a long review of it on the CBC. Sounds interesting. I'm going to post this elsewhere, but it pertains here:
> 
> The Associated Press: US official: 3 pirates may be dead in shootout
> 
> Going very hard on them still wouldn't end Egyptian corruption, but that's thousands of years older.


Re - Lessing : No, it was Sci-Fi Fantasy "End of the World as we Know it." Very weird with most disturbing written images of starving millions in African camps. Unlike anything else she ever wrote except for Memoirs of a Survivor which is also post apocalyptic. MOAS was made into a movie in the 70's starring Julie Christie. Very good it was too.

I'm not really a great reader of SciFI or Fantasy but when it is that good I get right into it.

edit - wrong re how much she wrote. More than I knew about.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Ah, yes. That's the first book of the "Canopus in Argos" series, which is sci-fi in only a very loose sense. There's four follow-up books and they should be easy to obtain if you are interested, being about 25 years old now.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Valiente said:


> Ah, yes. That's the first book of the "Canopus in Argos" series, which is sci-fi in only a very loose sense. There's four follow-up books and they should be easy to obtain if you are interested, being about 25 years old now.


Loose sense indeed, why I threw in the Fantasy word as well. I have all of them somewhere but like much of my life currently in storage.

I just did a quick Amazon search and amazingly enough they are all still in print including an Omnibus.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

tdw said:


> I'm guessing few would choose to go round the Horn.
> 
> Thoughts ?


...or you could take a plane... If your itinerary does not include Horn - it is NOT a circumnavigation in my opinion.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Why? Do canals like the Panama not qualify? This seems somewhat arbitrary. We are discussing cruising, not the Volvo races.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*circumnavigation plus*



Valiente said:


> Missing the Red Sea probably means, in the context of a circ, missing the Med, particularly the very nice cruising grounds of Turkey and places like Malta. .


We are not committed to a circumnavigation, at this stage we are planning to go to the Caribbean and then to Europe including the Med. If we decide to do a circumnavigation we would then go to Panama and around South Africa. I volunteered in Lesotho for four months and I really like Africa in general so it would be interesting to coastal cruise as much of the continent as feasible (from a sailing and political perspective).


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Hi, Bruce. I am getting a lot of use out of your old Portabote. I did a test to see how it would handle being pushed by a Honda 2 HP 4-stroke in 15 knots and two-foot rollers to the Humber Bridge and back. The answer was...that's about the limit of the ride I want to take in it! At least alone. Everything's holding together well, though.

How's your Bristol coming together? Are you wintering aboard this year?


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

US military is gearing up in Djibouti. I suspect we'll be seeing some action along the east Africa front pretty soon.


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## sasfish (Oct 1, 2008)

*re*

We have some friends in cape town now. The trip over was good but he did say that the trip down the african coast was umm not fun.

PS they are Australian from sydney and great people look them up on the way boat name is la barca.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Valiente said:


> Why? Do canals like the Panama not qualify? This seems somewhat arbitrary. We are discussing cruising, not the Volvo races.


Obviously it is a question of definitions. To me, Globe Cirumnavigation means taking the only route around Cape Horn as Nature intended and excluding man-made canals... 
If you choose to take canals, you may as well load your boat on a truck and haul it across continents - do not see much difference there... Plus if you take canals it is not called sailing anymore - it is motoring...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Drylander said:


> ...or you could take a plane... If your itinerary does not include Horn - it is NOT a circumnavigation in my opinion.


I know I know. It's teddibly teddibly thad. We are but wimps. We are not worthy. Were we big butch hairy macho men like you, the horn it would be , arrgghhh me hearties, gaff rigged to boot, no engine (only poofters need an engine) , canvas sails and none of them thar pooncy winch thingys, we'll sweat 'em up and sheet 'em in by block and tackle.

Not an effing circumnavigation indeed !! You knobhead.

On second thoughts maybe that was a very dry bit of humour that passed by unrecognised. If so, I tips me lid to you sir. Droll, very droll indeed.

Bucking LA LA Land indeed.

Now please excuse me, I fancy some Quiche for lunch and I need to re organise my handbag first.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

tdw said:


> I know I know. It's teddibly teddibly thad. We are but wimps. We are not worthy. Were we big butch hairy macho men like you, the horn it would be , arrgghhh me hearties, gaff rigged to boot, no engine (only poofters need an engine) , canvas sails and none of them thar pooncy winch thingys, we'll sweat 'em up and sheet 'em in by block and tackle.
> 
> Not an effing circumnavigation indeed !! You knobhead.
> 
> ...


yeah, mate! As a matter of fact I am just another puss who wants to do IT, but does not have balls for IT... Have your Quiche, I'll go grow some balls.


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## sasfish (Oct 1, 2008)

*re*

Now now girls calm down. Look its not about having big balls; its about timing and a well found boat and mind. Use your head and you will get out of 90% of the ruff stuff. The other 10% is the storyies you get to tell on the other side. Remember Most people who get hurt are those in a hurry or on A deadline. Sailing is the law of ( if I wait and wait I might get the wind for 30% of the time and the rest I leave to the yanmar) Have fun and dont get to worried. Trust me everyone gets there day in the junk but this is the life we chose so dont do it half way. By the way I have used panama and have no shame about it. 68,000 ocean miles and counting.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Drylander said:


> yeah, mate! As a matter of fact I am just another puss who wants to do IT, but does not have balls for IT... Have your Quiche, I'll go grow some balls.


Buy me some as well. 

Frankly, I don't see the need to do the Capes in order to claim a circumnavigation. Ok so you have to motor through one or both of the canals but hey, these days every bugger seems to turn on the motor whenever there is less than five knots of breeze.

While I aim to do many more sea miles than I've already done (and that number is pitifully small) I don't reckon I will ever circumnavigate, canals or no canals so it's pretty much academic to me.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Oh, bother! And I was sooo looking forward to the sight of wombat balls.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> Oh, bother! And I was sooo looking forward to the sight of wombat balls.


Yeah, pan fried in olive oil and garlic ......


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I suspect that the issue is about to receive a good bit more attention than previously. washingtonpost.com


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

xort said:


> US military is gearing up in Djibouti. I suspect we'll be seeing some action along the east Africa front pretty soon.


The tide may, I hope, be turning with these little bastards.

BBC NEWS | Africa | Somalia piracy 'costs up to $30m'


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Drylander said:


> Obviously it is a question of definitions. To me, Globe Cirumnavigation means taking the only route around Cape Horn as Nature intended and excluding man-made canals...


That Magellan was a complete shirt-lifter then, as he failed the scrotum-as-anchor test and only went through the Straits the homosexual lobby of cartographer decided to name after him, no doubt after certain penises changed hands, and God knows what else.

Bloody Magellan. What a fraud! I bet his GPSes point South.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

tdw said:


> Yeah, pan fried in olive oil and garlic ......


I thought the Australian government wanted you to eat kangaroo, although I suppose at least half of them sport "the nether pouch".


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Valiente said:


> I thought the Australian government wanted you to eat kangaroo, although I suppose at least half of them sport "the nether pouch".


Somehow a diet rich in marsupial meat fails to wet the appetite. Of course, marsupials being low-emitters of gas flies in the face of all we know to be true. (g)


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Valiente*  
_I thought the Australian government wanted you to eat kangaroo, although I suppose at least half of them sport "the nether pouch"._




sailaway21 said:


> Somehow a diet rich in marsupial meat fails to wet the appetite. Of course, marsupials being low-emitters of gas flies in the face of all we know to be true. (g)


Every now and then there is a push to eat the stuff but it never quite takes off. About the only way i've ever had it that was palatable was aged, marinated in red wine and garlic and grilled very very rare. Not bad but then I kind of like garlic and red wine. 

I am told that it's not bad in a pie.

Wombats on the other hand have the advantage of being as tough as old boots and if you have ever had the misfortune of being in the near vicinity of a farting Koala you would know just how safe they are. us wombles may well be full of hot air but WHOA MAMA the odour of fermented eucalyptus leaves is not be forgotten.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I am imagining a koala fart would smell very much like the goo with which my mother would rub my little chest when I had the 'flu.

Combined with stale beer.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Valiente said:


> I am imagining a koala fart would smell very much like the goo with which my mother would rub my little chest when I had the 'flu.
> 
> Combined with stale beer.


and that's on a good day.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Omatako said:


> OK so if you're going to have fun doing the study then I'll leave you to it. Else I can run over it for you.  Let us know what you find.
> .


Not a lot of info out there as far as the rivers are concerned but from what I can gather really only the Limpopo and Zambezi are even vaguely possible in the south east potion of Africa.

ps - Even if navigable from the sea , it has got to questionable as to whether it would be a good idea given political situation.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

If I drink too much coffee, I take a section of the newspaper upstairs for a Limpopo.

Upstairs doesn't feature crocodiles, though.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Ha bloody ha !! 

Anyway at my age almost everything has gone all Limpopo on me, the Zamb does not come ezi that's for sure.  

I'm beginning to think that maybe just maybe the thought of a cruise up an African river was not one of my best ideas. 

I was having some kind if inane dream of a modern day trip through the Heart of Darkness. I really should stop reading the classics before bedtime.


The Thames seems nice this time of year !! Strawberries and Cream anyone ?


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

OK so this may get a bit wordy but here goes.

From Richards Bay (northern-most port in SA) there is nothing until Maputo in Mozambique. Here there are some islands, a small craft harbour normally packed with fishing boats and a commercial harbour that is normally in a state of disarray.
North of Maputo the next haven if it can be called that is Beira. A roadstead harbour in the Pungwe River with a very crowded very shallow small craft harbour. The river is the entry channel and is full of shifting sandbanks and moves all the time. When we were there, we anchored over a sand bank in the river so that the ships and tugs didn't mow us down. The authorities hadn't seen a private yacht for decades and kept us on our boat for 5 days while they decided what to do with us. Definitely not yacht-friendly. On an ebb tide with the river flow, the current runs at 6+ knots!! Must use tandem anchors.
About 460 nm north is the next available stop at Isle de Mozambique. A nice small haven, good holding, very friendly town, one of the nicest stops on the East Coast of Africa. Don't go in unless you have a Coastal Pilot and even those are dated and inaccurate.
If you want to go out to sea now the next closest stop is the Comores Islands. Never been there, no comment.
If you want to stay in Africa then Zanzibar in Tanzania. 3rd world for sure but a great stop. Not going to elaborate - too much to say.
North of here is Mombasa (Kenya) and just north of there (30nm) is Kilifi Creek which is the chosen stop in this part of the world for cruisers.
You don't want to go anywhere on this coast north of Kilifi.
If you want to cross the channel to Madagascar then your first acceptable stop is Nose Be which is seriously third world but an enjoyable stop just the same. Cheap as chips, great beer, excellent diving/fishing. Just be aware that there, even the very modest yachts are seen as exceedingly wealthy and easy pickings.
Just to be clear, none of the rivers on the east coast of Africa (Limpopo, Zambezi) are yacht friendly and there are no marinas in these rivers (to be fair, there are no marinas anywhere north of SA). They are seriously hostile environments with shifting islands and bars with normally very intimidating surf rolling in.

OK so in short, in 1800 miles you have 7 "safe" havens but none of them resemble anything you would find in Australia or the US. It is a real adventure to sail this coastline but it really is testing. If you're into something out of the ordinary, this is a worthwhile trip.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Thanks for the benefit of your experience. Very few of us will get there in any context, but I have my hopes.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Andre,

Thanks for taking the time. Good of you.

I'm wondering, did you do any cruising in New Guinea ? It seems to me that conditions may well be similar in many ways. Of interest is the fact that the Fly is navigable for quite some distance inland.

Hey maybe my Heart of Darkness dream is not quite so fantastical after all. 

New Guinea is an interesting place. Port Moresby has developed a reputation for lawlessness but so far that does not extend to areas outside. You need a decent engine of course but the Fly is doable. Rough as all get out of course. Very hot and sticky. No marinas and provisioning would be local market stuff. But isn't that part of what we are looking for ?

The Louisiades are of course highly regarded but they are more akin to the Solomons style of island than mainland PNG.

If you don't know anything about the Fly.....

Fly River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Terrific discussion!*

Thanks for all of the interesting ideas in this discussion.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I've referred it to people outside of this forum. It makes up somewhat for all the jerkery in Off-topic and boasting elsewhere.

From Noonsite.com, the latest "official" tally of pirate activity in the Red Sea, along with the suggested least dangerous convoy route.

http://unosat.web.cern.ch/unosat/fr...SAT_SOM_Piracy_Gulf_Aden_Sept08_Lowres_v6.pdf

Warning: it's a very big PDF.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

tdw said:


> I'm wondering, did you do any cruising in New Guinea ?


No I haven't. Touched on Indonesia but not PNG. May be on the list when I go for my next one. That will be probably the trip we've been discussing here for some time.

We haven't really touched Asia yet and the missus and I were musing the other evening about taking a year off for a trip in 2011 from NZ to Fiji, Vanuatu, the Solomans (maybe New Cal), N Aus, Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand. I have a life-long friend that just bought his retirement home in Thailand so he'll be good and established by then  . Maybe we'll plug PNG into that trip. It's pretty much on the way but frankly, it doesn't look any more inviting a coastline than Africa. I spoke to a fellow in Bali who stopped at East Timor on the way past and was very enthused by that but I haven't done any research on the place.

This trip could end up being converted into a circumnav via SA and Panama even though some of our members don't consider that a circumnav  . We would probably leave the boat in Thailand and come home to generate some more cash before a trans Indian crossing. At this time, embrionic but likely to grow more real with time


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Fascinating map!*

Thanks for posting this map - as a geographer by training and inclination, I found it intriguing to see the actual pattern of these incidents. Even if one were to stay out of the supposed dangerous areas (Yemeni coast, Socrota, and Puntland coast) there are lots of incidents. I think that increased naval activity is the only way to limit this. Perhaps a blanket statement that any small craft approaching vessels that have registered with the international naval force will be fired on would do the trick - if the firing on happened a few times. In the absence of a real government in Somalia there is no other approach that looks reasonable.


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## sasfish (Oct 1, 2008)

*re*

I think it is so cool that people put up stuff like this map. Good work


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Omatako said:


> No I haven't. Touched on Indonesia but not PNG. May be on the list when I go for my next one. That will be probably the trip we've been discussing here for some time.
> 
> We haven't really touched Asia yet and the missus and I were musing the other evening about taking a year off for a trip in 2011 from NZ to Fiji, Vanuatu, the Solomans (maybe New Cal), N Aus, Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand. I have a life-long friend that just bought his retirement home in Thailand so he'll be good and established by then  . Maybe we'll plug PNG into that trip. It's pretty much on the way but frankly, it doesn't look any more inviting a coastline than Africa. I spoke to a fellow in Bali who stopped at East Timor on the way past and was very enthused by that but I haven't done any research on the place.
> 
> This trip could end up being converted into a circumnav via SA and Panama even though some of our members don't consider that a circumnav  . We would probably leave the boat in Thailand and come home to generate some more cash before a trans Indian crossing. At this time, embrionic but likely to grow more real with time


Once we head north our plans initially revolve around a season exploring the top end of Oz and the Kimberley Coast. The other plan involves Louisiades, Solomons, New Caledonia with the big question then being whether we might give Japan a go or head over to Malaysia etc. To be honest that will depend on how Ms W takes to life at sea. I've done a bit and thoroughly enjoy the passagemaking but she hasn't and is unconvinced. We also want to do a lap around Tasmania but that would be done during the cyclone season up north.

Having a look see at mainland New Guinea could be part of either of the two planned voyages the only problem being time available between the cyclone seasons. Maybe starting off from Thursday Island , across to PNG, then back to the Oz mainland is viable. Could clear in and out of Daru. That would leave the Louisiades for the Solomons New Cal trip.

If Ms W copes with the voyaging life but is unconvinced about trip to Japan then I'd foresee a lurch out into the Indian. Would like to see Chagos and the Maldives before, as you mentioned earlier, they disappear beneath the sea.

Valiente - Thanks for digging out that map. Most informative.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> Once we head north our plans initially revolve around a season exploring the top end of Oz and the Kimberley Coast. The other plan involves Louisiades, Solomons, New Caledonia with the big question then being whether we might give Japan a go or head over to Malaysia etc. To be honest that will depend on how Ms W takes to life at sea. I've done a bit and thoroughly enjoy the passagemaking but she hasn't and is unconvinced. We also want to do a lap around Tasmania but that would be done during the cyclone season up north.


Andrew, just curious: When were you planning to do this?? We've got to get back to Sydney and see you sometime - within the next few months I hope. 

Oh, and don't forget that the Solomons is not necessarily a friendly place to visit. Sure, there are lots of pretty islands and WWII relics (including the odd unexploded mine or three close to shore!) - but there are also nasty locals with guns in a few places that would just love to take over a pretty boat and use it to advance their cause.. 

Cameron


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Hartley18 said:


> Andrew, just curious: When were you planning to do this?? We've got to get back to Sydney and see you sometime - within the next few months I hope.
> 
> Oh, and don't forget that the Solomons is not necessarily a friendly place to visit. Sure, there are lots of pretty islands and WWII relics (including the odd unexploded mine or three close to shore!) - but there are also nasty locals with guns in a few places that would just love to take over a pretty boat and use it to advance their cause..
> 
> Cameron


Won't be this year that's for sure. I've had my eye on a couple of boats in the US, one of which Ms W has well and truely fallen in love with. Sadly with the current suicidal tendencies of the Oz Dollar those plans are looking somewhat shakey. 
Raven is really too small for our needs though quite capable. Not sure given current economic circumstances. Watch this space.

edit - if we cannot get new boat in the next few months then I'm pushing for us to at least do Australian coastline with Raven.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

It's much easier to go sailing with the boat you have. Stupid sounding, I know, but speaking as a fellow with a dissembled passagemaker and the old, no-frills boat "loaned" to a woman at a club three miles west, I've certainly appreciated those few times I've sailed this year. We'll probably go out one last time before haulout this Sunday, as it is supposed to be an unseasonably warm 22 C. Last night, some places to the north of here got frost.

Yes, Mr. Wombat, I know that the only frost you ever see is on the side of a well-chilled tinny!


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## mygoggie (Sep 10, 2008)

I am based in Port Elizabeth and know a few skippers that can give you solid advise.

The leg from Durban to East London is known as the Wild Coast or also Shipwreck Coast and for good reason. If you do not wait for the correct weather, you will have real fun surfing waves. The wait can be anything up to two weeks. The main problem sailing North to South is that the current comes very close inshore (up to 4 miles) and forms eddy currents that pushes you onshore.

If you sail South to North then the normal way is to depart Port Elizabeth, sail 400nm dead east and then turn dead North and sail to Mauritius if you want to visit these beautiful islands.

Your other problem is Cape Agulhas where you will encounter large waves and swells and problem winds. Your stops from E2W will be Mossel Bay and then Cape Town. You need to carry enough diesel for this leg to motor at max engine revs for at least 40% of the way.

Expect 20-30knots of wind as the norm and swells between 12-18feet. Winds can easily turn to 40-50knots and swells and waves anything to 30feet or larger so again waiting for the correct weather is crucial.

I would suggest you obtain the Pilots for the SA coast (three volumes) as you WILL need the light house ID's and other descriptions.

Also be assured that the Sea Rescue (NSRI) service is always on standby with good advise and a helping hand if required. Do not hesitate to call them up when you are tired or simply scared.

All rivers in Southern Africa are not sailable expect the very first bit to the harbours of Durban, East London and marina at Port Alfred. There are numerous small harbours and sheltering places between East London and Cape Town. None between Durban and East London.

Many have sailed this route and if you plan ahead and wait you will really enjoy the friendliness of the sailors in this area. And do not worry about the government here, they do not know what they are doing in any case. The people on the ground that you will meet are friendly, homely and really helpful.

Well, that is my two bits.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Valiente said:


> It's much easier to go sailing with the boat you have. Stupid sounding, I know, but speaking as a fellow with a dissembled passagemaker and the old, no-frills boat "loaned" to a woman at a club three miles west, I've certainly appreciated those few times I've sailed this year. We'll probably go out one last time before haulout this Sunday, as it is supposed to be an unseasonably warm 22 C. Last night, some places to the north of here got frost.
> 
> Yes, Mr. Wombat, I know that the only frost you ever see is on the side of a well-chilled tinny!


Sr Valiente,

It may well be that we wait out the economic chill. To do an Australian cruise Raven will need a bit of work but not that much. One of the fridges is stuffed, I need to upgrade her nav lights and she needs new upholstery, sail cover and bimini. Other than that just a bit of normal steel maintenance (read , out with the dremel and the POR ) . We shall see.
Bit down at the moment. Oz dollar was nearly at parity with the US a couple of months back but it was predicted to go to just above parity. We had decied to buy USD at parity but it never got there. Since then has dropped by over 25%. ****e.
Shouldn't whine. Trying not too. Lots of people in far far far worse shape than some drongo who just wants to buy a new boat. 
Anyway, both of us would like to take Raven on a nice cruise before we let her go. Looks like we will get our wish.

Cameron - ref Solomons, violence is both sporadic and in specific locations. Mainly based on emnity between the Malaitans (sp ?) and the Guadalcanal natives. They basically hate each other and in the main the Malaitans can be somewhat prickly.

MyGoggie - Thanks for your input. This thread was started as a discussion point and has achieved it's objectives thus far. I hope it can go on for awhile longer. Cheers.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

It's turning into a cruising guide for South Africa. If I was the Egyptian guy in charge of the Suez tolls, I'd dispatch elements of the Egyptian navy down to Puntland to do some serious instruction of my co-religionists.

But given what I know of governance in Africa, that will never happen. They whine about colonialism and the evil Western devils, but they rarely pull it together to help themselves. Too easy to blame others.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"dispatch elements of the Egyptian navy"
What, a country that hasn't got a pot to piss in, is going to expend large sums of money commencing hostilities with the neighbors, who will retaliate with more domestic attacks in Egypt itself?
Like the TV repairman says, "not economically feasible to repair."

It's not as is commercial shipping is going to divert to another route. The West side of Africa has the same pirate problem. The Egyptians have limited options.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> "dispatch elements of the Egyptian navy"
> What, a country that hasn't got a pot to piss in, is going to expend large sums of money commencing hostilities with the neighbors, who will retaliate with more domestic attacks in Egypt itself?
> Like the TV repairman says, "not economically feasible to repair."
> 
> It's not as is commercial shipping is going to divert to another route. The West side of Africa has the same pirate problem. The Egyptians have limited options.


Egypt derives a lot of income from the Suez Canal. That alone should have them taking some action to protect their own interests.

OTOH, much of Europe - Asia (damn near all of it in fact) goes through Suez and this shipping is carried by European and American ships as well as Asian. The nations whose fleets are at risk should also join in.

I've taken a bit of grief in a another place re anti American sentiment but I note that what protection is being given to shipping in and around the Gulf of Aden is largely by the USN.

While piracy is a problem on the West Coast of Africa it is most certainly nowhere near as bad and shipping can stand further off shore.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

hellosailor said:


> "dispatch elements of the Egyptian navy"
> What, a country that hasn't got a pot to piss in, is going to expend large sums of money commencing hostilities with the neighbors, who will retaliate with more domestic attacks in Egypt itself?


I reckon the only claim the Egyptians have to a navy is that they have all, at one point, been semen.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Good one...unless you're an easily offended Egyptian.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Wombat-
One of my sources is a fly on the wall of the Egyptian Parliament. He overheard the following conversation:
"We derive a lot of income from the Suez Canal. We should be taking some action to protect own interests."
"Wow, you're right. What will it cost us to send the Navy to Somalia?"
"Oh, a lot of money. But if we don't send our Navy, someone else will send theirs anyway."
"So we can protect our interests best by doing nothing, and using our military budget to prevent food riots at home?"
"Yes, and we'll save even more by not antagonizing the terrorists who used to blow up tourists and ruin our tourist season!"
"Alll those in favor? AYE! Carried unanimously!"

The fly on the wall swears he heard it all. A separate transcript from an ancient and venerable dung beatles confirms this to be so. The wisdom of ten thousand years prevailed--and I agree with it, given their circumstances.

You've got be be RICH before you can enforce your standards on someone else. Egypt doesn't have that kind of money to burn, they're quite busy enough on the home front.

Maybe we could get the Somali pirates to invest heavily in a stock mutual fund, and steal the money back from them that way?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> Wombat-
> One of my sources is a fly on the wall of the Egyptian Parliament. He overheard the following conversation:
> ?


Ha bloody ha......but point taken.

Look Egyptian action could well have meant simply trying to get other peoples navys into the region. Give the US a bit of a prod given they already have a presence there.


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## Ferroever (Apr 26, 2007)

Great thread. Lots of good links for me to check out. Bit disappointed that my boat is too big - 45ft - sigh and
"I also want to see South Africa before it turns into another failed, completely lawless African state (which I sincerely hope, after all its struggles, will be the case, but I think it's 50/50 at the moment)"
kind of made my morning even more glum, given that a hurricane is also heading for my boat in Mexico, but on the whole, this thread has been entertaining, informative and uh, yeah, okay, the depressing bit about boat size and that my property investment in SA[retirement fund] probably won't be there by the time I need it, kind of brought me down a few fathoms, but on the whole, this thread wins a marble cheeseboard with wire cutter.
Thanks Valiente for the heads-up.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Ferroever said:


> Great thread. Lots of good links for me to check out. Bit disappointed that my boat is too big - 45ft - sigh and
> "I also want to see South Africa before it turns into another failed, completely lawless African state (which I sincerely hope, after all its struggles, will be the case, but I think it's 50/50 at the moment)"
> kind of made my morning even more glum, given that a hurricane is also heading for my boat in Mexico, but on the whole, this thread has been entertaining, informative and uh, yeah, okay, the depressing bit about boat size and that my property investment in SA[retirement fund] probably won't be there by the time I need it, kind of brought me down a few fathoms, but on the whole, this thread wins a marble cheeseboard with wire cutter.
> Thanks Valiente for the heads-up.


Wombat's opinions are Wombat's opinions only. No veracity is intended or implied. 

45' is only too big if you think 45' is too big. Me I would like to get down to 40 but that's just me.

Given that Oz dollar has tanked 30% in the last month and our investments are also looking pretty damn sad there will be more than just you in the financially fooked class.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Your boat isn't too big. Your experience with that boat is too little. Keep it half-reefed and I guarantee it will never move so quickly that it won't tax a 30 footer to keep up.

Docking? Put out fender boards and find a nice buoy with 20 feet of water around it. Bring your boat alongside and chuck a hat on the buoy. Now practise retrieving the hat from the other side of the buoy.

Repeat until you can "hover" the boat in most conditions. Takes about three hours to learn.

The advanced class is "warping off a seawall in unfavourable winds".


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