# High Latitude boats - Metal v Fiberglass



## Edo Kazumichi (Apr 7, 2006)

I recently read an article in a non-sailing publication (The Economist online, "Icebergs Ahoy") about some outfits doing private charters in the far south and north - Antarctica, Tierra del Fuego, South Georgia, Greenland, Spitsbergen. They made the observation that fiberglass boats are not tough enough to face the hazards of sailing in these regions. However, when I looked at the website of one the brokers handling boats that do these trips I found that although most were using metal vessels there were two or three that were using fiberglass boats. 

Does a guy need a steel boat to survive a trip to Greenland or Antarctica or to round Cape Horn?


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## haffiman37 (Jun 4, 2004)

Perhaps the author has not read about Titanic!
There are plenty of GRP boats up in the arctic waters, some even stay the winter frozen in the ice. The more impotant may be the design of the boat. The risk of hitting small submerged ice bergs/blocks are rather high and a fin keel would not be my first choice of design. I think the real reason for using steel boats have more to do with repair facilities and economy than the material itself. A bit tricky to do glassfber jobs in 
-10 Centigrades!


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## Edo Kazumichi (Apr 7, 2006)

Are you telling me the Titanic wasn't fiberglass?



Still, a whack anywhere on a long-keeled fiberglass boat with a block of ice would be a rather bad thing, no? And my time on the Arctic coast of Alaska suggests to me that you would have to worry about hitting ice for all but about one or two months out of the year. And wouldn't being frozen in the ice severely damage a boat -ala what Shackleton's boat suffered? How do they do it?

If these questions seem uninformed it's because they are. I'm new to sailing but would eventually like to have a boat that I could safely take into the areas I mentioned.

Thanks!


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## sailandoar (Mar 20, 2006)

*Airex cored hull*

The literature for Airex foam cored glass hulls 20 years ago showed several boats involved in groundings and being trapped in ice flows that you would have thought would turn them into plastic mulch, but they were put back into service until the repair shop could work them in to fill the scratches and repair the paint job. That is not much of an exageration, they can take a licking a keep on ticking.

I have a steel boat and I like it but it occasionaly rusts.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I think a metal-hulled boat would be safer, but a wooden composite or GRP boat would be warmer.


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## sailorjim99 (May 1, 2006)

G'day Edo
One of my all time heroes was a Dr. David Lewis.
He had a steel boat and tried to circumnavigate Antartica in the 70/s.
He wrote a book called "ICE BIRD" about his trip.
You should get it somehow and read it.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

There are a lot of glass boats now being built with Aramid and Kevlar in the hulls which is supposedly stronger than steel on impact. I think the comment about repairs is more to the point...you can find a welder just about anywhere...but try to find an Aramid repairman in Tierra del Fuego!


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## Edo Kazumichi (Apr 7, 2006)

Thanks all.

So the consensus seems to be that you could take a modern GRP boat into these waters without risking your life. 

Does anybody have a list of pros and cons for metal vs GRP in general? Here's a first pass:

Steel pros
-can be repaired just about anywhere by just about anyone

GRP pros
-warmer
-doesn't rust
-looks alot cooler

Additions?


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## sailandoar (Mar 20, 2006)

*Fairmetal hulls / Orgami constuction*

Not a response to your last question but in line with your possible interest in metal boats, take a look at the type of construction in the title. As a metal boat owner and former welder/shipfitter I think they are the way to go. Construction is cheaper (less labor) and longevity improved. ( most metal boat die from the inside out due to moisture collecting on the many pockets on the longitudinals). I am fairly sure that Jimmy Corrnell's boat is a french 'fairmetal'.

As to the 'COLDNESS' of a metal hull, it is I think much overblown. Single skin glass and metal hulls are only marginally different when it comes to condensation etc. Any hull needs to be insulated and my hull has about 2.5" of spray in place foam and it does not get much better than that. Modern glass hulls with interior liners seem to me to be a goofy waste. Consumers want/expect a very pretty high degree of finish and the manufacturer's add all that weight and create a situation where you may not notice the condensation but it is DRIPPING into the bilge through the HIDDEN/INACESSABLE voids between the hull and liner and if your lucky and if your not lucky it pools and leaks into the interior and causes mildew mold problems. What if you get a pucture in the hull, how do you get to it to stop it if it is hidden by the stupid liner and the void behind the liner lets the water travel every which way. I am not a fan of modern boat construction and drop in liners. The older hulls (or current hulls) that are single skin (or cored) and have the interior built right to the hull make more sense to me.

Metal hulls are easier to modify. Weld or bolt most anything anywhere and you have increadable strength while with a glass/wood hull you have to worry/fret about where and how to mount and reinforce.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Some GRP boats are "unsinkable", but I'd take that claim with a grain of salt... that is generally not the case with steel boats... ie. Titantic.


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## mike dryver (May 13, 2006)

*metal v glass*

hi all 
with regards to metal boats as the ex ship fitter said metal is safer and stronger. easier to find repair facil. for. ect. they can be made warm with insul. and have the advan, that if you hit something your chances of survival are greater. they are somewhat more involved to maintain unless sprayed with zinc prior to paint or some other new paint sys. as far as safety you can make multiple collision bulkheads in them easier than glass, because the coll. blkhd becomes part of the permanant hull structure which ties everything together. the problem with glass is that the blkhds are only bonded to the hull struc. and can fail. there is at present only one mfg of glass boats that guarentees unsinkable that is ETAP. they must be built sim. to B-Whaler with a foam core thru out or along that line. as to the Titanic the thought is now after going back down to the wreck that her backbone broke from striking the berg from underneath

regards all mike


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## haffiman37 (Jun 4, 2004)

There is in fact no simple answer to your questions. There have been boats in the arctic frozen in during winter of all meterials except aluminum, to my knowledge. Wood, steel, GRP, it is more a question of hull design. A customer of mine even sailed his Bavaria 40 to Spetsbergen! Some technical 'solutions' are not of the best like finn keels, free hanging rudder, sail drives and folding/furling props. The risk of knocking off a prop blade is probably bigger than knockng a hole in the boat whatever material.
If You want to be up there in vinter there are a lot more factores than hull material that would be of worry. If You plan a summer trip, choose whatever gives you a safe feeling!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

"So the consensus seems to be that you could take a modern GRP boat into these waters without risking your life." I think you misread the replies.

I would suggest that no matter how experienced the sailor, NO ONE GOES INTO THOSE WATERS WITHOUT RISKING THEIR LIFE. No matter what the boat is.

Survival time in that water, without an exposure suit, is something less than five minutes. If you go overboard, your diaphragm will freeze and you will stop breathing before the boat can drop sail and return for you. Puncture the hull and take on water...and you're in a very short race against that same water.

Beyond that it is just a matter of ego, experience, and relative risk. Metal hulls are less likely to be punctured by ice. Exotic composites (aramid, kevlar) are still basically NOT FOUND in composite yachts, except for the ones built to be ultra-light racers. And any racer can tell you, if you didn't break anything, it was built too heavy. These are not ice-armored boats, they are ultralight boats, and no matter what they are built from it is not designed to fend off ice.

Could you have a composite boat built "armored"? Sure. Can you armor you own boat by laying in high-tech materials, or steel tire belting and other reinforcement? Sure, people do. 

But if you intend to sail in harm's way, you'll probably find it cheaper, faster, stronger, to simply buy a metal boat in the first place.


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## sailandoar (Mar 20, 2006)

*Catamaran => Won't sink?*

People say they might turn over but in reality many of them are sailing and you almost never hear of one flipping. And what happens when they do flip? There you are sitting on the bottom of the connecting deck with all your possesions a bit wet but near by and somewhat accessable. You have a prayer of turning it back upright. Really much better that any monohull. Most of the worlds coasts are shallow and tidal and a cat can sneak in and sit in the shallows or sit on the bottom and still be a great home. Pull it above the tide line and you have a new home under the connecting deck. Work on the bottom anyplace that has a few feet of tide, or you can drag with block and tackle and rollers to get it dryed out for work or storage or tropical island beach cottage. Most monohulls will make you crazy with the small space and no areas to streach out and lay around or work on projects. The cat has a lot of good stuff going on.

My favorite is the James Wharram designs. If only for amrchair sailing the Wharram design book is a great read. Think that a 40' wharram may be our next boat in a few years, or if we can figure the make money with a boat thing out it may be our second boat.


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## Edo Kazumichi (Apr 7, 2006)

Thanks again, all. 

Obviously I have alot to learn about steel. Can anyone recommend a good how-to-pick-a-good-steel-sailboat book?


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## sailandoar (Mar 20, 2006)

*mmmmm ????*

Tom Colvin
"Steel Boat Building"
www.thomasecolvin.com

Ian Nicholson
Books on steel boats/surveying

Gilbert C. Klingel
"Boat building with steel"

Bruce Roberts
www.bruceroberts.com

Michael Kasten
www.kastenmarine.com

Most exciting concept in metal boats. I think that Jimmy Cornell's boat is a french built fairmetal boat.
www.fairmetalboats.com

***************

Bruce Roberts is the steel boat marketing king but I found his books to be ???fluffy???.

Tom Colvin's book(s) are very meat and potatoes and cover the building and many other topics (my favorite... but I own a Colvin boat so what do you expect)

Kasten has a LOT of great free info on his web site.

Nicolson's book on surevying metal boats would be helpful.

Klingle's book is helpful if your doing the building.

FAIRMETAL: If I could pick any metal boat I think one built with the 'fairmetal' sometimes called 'origami' would be my choice. Strong or stronger, fewer labor hours in the hull, cleaner interior means fewer corrosion issues years down the road.


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