# Turn that frown upside down! Lets talk NEW engines!



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

While I await the insurance decisions on my seized engine, I've been looking into options for rebuild, long/short blocks and new engines.

I can get a rebuilt engine for nearly the exact same cost as a new yanmar, and the rebuilt engine only has a 6 month warranty. Yanmars are new, and have a 2-3 year warranty. Cheap long and short blocks don't seem to be avalible and so far the quotes to rebuild my engine are coming out as high, or higher than a new one...

So... lets shop for a new engine for me. First, what do I have and what is the boat designed to have.

The boat is a Nauticat 40 and it currently has a Ford Lehman 90HP naturally aspirated engine and a Borg Warner velvet drive turning a 22x16LH prop.

The boat displaces 31,000 lbs dry, and with my 420 gal of tankage, generator, stuff etc it likely weighs in at 35-36,000lbs. LWL is 32'8". The engine that's in the boat now is more of a production decision than a design one. You see, the Nauticat yard used to put the same 90HP ford in every one of their boats, from the 17,000lb 33footer to the 43 which weighs in at a ton more than my boat.

So, how many HP do I need? I've been told that 2HP per ton is what it takes to reach hull speed and my experience with my Formosa 41 and my other boats tells me that seems a little short. The formosa 41 weighed in at 28,000lbs dry and the engine put out 36HP or so at WOT....

Actually, since I ran her at about 80% of WOT and she wasn't cruised at "dry weight" the 2hp per ton might be pretty close. Things had to be absolutely perfect though for all this to work and the difference of one inch of prop pitch made all the difference in the world.

Going forward, I think I need 2HP per ton, with a bit of fudge factor built in so I can still go hull speed if the bottom isn't perfectly clean. I wouldn't mind a little more power to push a knot or 2 faster in a high current situation or when trying to make a slack current deadline.

Other considerations:
I'd like it to be reliable. 
I'd like it to be quiet. 
I'd like parts to be cheap and available everywhere.
I'd like it to be fuel efficient. 
I'd love to be able to re-use my VDO gauges instead of having to buy and figure out where to mount, expensive panels with wiring harnesses. 
I really don't want a turbo, but I'm willing to listen to the arguments for one.

I'm probably going to need a new prop too, so we can talk about that as well.

MedSailor


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'd add to your requirements the degree of modifications of the existing beds.. This can be a big job if it's a major redesign/reconstruction of that crucial area.


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Faster said:


> I'd add to your requirements the degree of modifications of the existing beds.. This can be a big job if it's a major redesign/reconstruction of that crucial area.


Good point. The yard estimate is +20hrs for a yanmar over a rebuilt ford because of the exhaust changes, wiring, and engine bedding. I would think it would be difficult to compare, say, Beta vs Yanmar for how difficult they are going to be to install...

MedSailor


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Engine mount footprints/dimensions and overall dimensions should be available online (or from dealers) and allow you to compare and check that you'll have the necessary clearances for passing the package in and out of the cabin, and in the engine space itself.

Another thing to watch for is prop shaft exit angles.. not the same for everybody's offerings.


----------



## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Med,

Had Westerbrakes, Volvo's, and Yanmars. The Westerbrakes got the nickname for a reason, the Volvo's had hard to get expensive parts, the Yanmars I just changed the oil and impellers annually, and never gave me any trouble.

YMMV.

Good luck, not easy what you're going through but if you start new, you know what you got.


----------



## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Sorry to see you are providing your own version of global economic stimulus. We have a Westerbeke and it has been reliable but the part prices can be nasty. Long time since I had a Volvo so can't compare. Our boat loaded is about 20 tons and we have 58 hp. I certainly would not like to have less and probably would like around 70 hp or so. 

Something else to check, there are many things, is where the service points are on the engine and where the service portals are on your boat. You don't want an oil filter in some place that is really hard to deal with. i don't know why there is no standardization of locations. Would seem to be good for everyone.


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> Sorry to see you are providing your own version of global economic stimulus. We have a Westerbeke and it has been reliable but the part prices can be nasty. Long time since I had a Volvo so can't compare. Our boat loaded is about 20 tons and we have 58 hp. I certainly would not like to have less and probably would like around 70 hp or so.
> 
> Something else to check, there are many things, is where the service points are on the engine and where the service portals are on your boat. You don't want an oil filter in some place that is really hard to deal with. i don't know why there is no standardization of locations. Would seem to be good for everyone.


Now that's a good idea! The port side of my engine is difficult to access as it is right now. Good thing to consider. Likely though, I'll end up with more clearance as the ford is a BIG engine.

I have a westerbeke genset. I wonder if there would be any common parts? Probably not...

MedSailor


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

My personal preference would to go normally aspirated if possible(as I said in the other thread). but that leaves you a bit short of HP, but Beta makes a normally aspirated four cylinder that makes 75 HP. They have some nice factory installed options for larger alternators (using Balmer alternators) and serpentine belts to drive them. They can also do remote mount filters, and oil change pumps. I think a lot of these options can make them pretty attractive. I don't know who makes this block as obviously Beta just ads the marine bits and lots of them use Kubuta tractor motors, so parts should be available anywhere. Turbos to me seem to be a trouble spot for some engines in the marine environment. 

Then you can get into John Deer, but I don't think they are going to have typical sailboat setups. But your boat is not really a standard sailboat set up. I understand someone was teaming up with VW to use there TDI blocks but they seem to be higher RPM motors than you would need. Nanni used to have lots of offerings but you don't hear much about them, same with Vetus.


----------



## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

I am guessing that you want to get a new gauge package with the new engine.. I bet the extra labor to figure out/connect them to the new engine isn't going to be worth it...

And, you'd get new gauges.

Sorry.


----------



## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

MedSailor said:


> Now that's a good idea! The port side of my engine is difficult to access as it is right now. Good thing to consider. Likely though, I'll end up with more clearance as the ford is a BIG engine.
> 
> I have a westerbeke genset. I wonder if there would be any common parts? Probably not...
> 
> MedSailor


You can download the parts manual for your genset from Westerbeke and then could compare with the parts list for a new engine. My guess is probably not much in common because of age and a different base engine.


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

miatapaul said:


> My personal preference would to go normally aspirated if possible(as I said in the other thread). but that leaves you a bit short of HP, but Beta makes a normally aspirated four cylinder that makes 75 HP. They have some nice factory installed options for larger alternators (using Balmer alternators) and serpentine belts to drive them. They can also do remote mount filters, and oil change pumps. I think a lot of these options can make them pretty attractive. I don't know who makes this block as obviously Beta just ads the marine bits and lots of them use Kubuta tractor motors, so parts should be available anywhere. Turbos to me seem to be a trouble spot for some engines in the marine environment.
> 
> Then you can get into John Deer, but I don't think they are going to have typical sailboat setups. But your boat is not really a standard sailboat set up. I understand someone was teaming up with VW to use there TDI blocks but they seem to be higher RPM motors than you would need. Nanni used to have lots of offerings but you don't hear much about them, same with Vetus.


I was assuming that Beta parts would be hard to find where I'm going, but thinking of it as kubota parts, opens up more options. You're correct they have larger engines without turbos, which is a plus, though right now my frist price quote for a Beta was higher than yanmar for the same HP. They do have lots of options, and the options add lots of cost, but they're there.

Yanmar parts seem to be everywhere. I used their dealer/parts locator and found 4 parts suppliers in NORTHWESTERN Australia, as well as Fiji, New Caledonia and Tahiti.

Part shops are good, but I wonder how important it is when you're out there. Is a part shop in Tahiti really much good if you're in the solomons when things break? Seems like I'm going to be carrying lots of spares anyway.

I haven't gotten any quotes on the John Deere, but it's been mentioned by one mechanic. Don't know much about them...

I'm prejudiced against Volvo for their reputation for extortionate prices on parts and because I have only ever been on one boat with a Volvo engine. Yanmar, on the other hand was on my wooden boat and that thing thrived on abuse...

Medsailor


----------



## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

I just purchased a new Yanmar 4hj4-te 75hp a couple months ago. Coming from a Volkswagen Pathfinder 70hp 5cyl I have much more room than before. The new Yanmar have most everything is thought out in regards to servicing. Pump, oil filter are easy to get to on my boat, but I have a v drive so everything is assessable from the lazeret. The new engines are equipped with 80a alt with a serpentine belt(6 groove I believe)

My boat is 47', 15 tons dry and I think the 75hp is just right for my boat. It should be just right for yours as well. Though the Yanmar is a fast rpm, you will need to look at gearing and prop changes from your existing setup. It was cheaper, less weight, and smaller dimensions than the 85hp Perkins, the cummins 75hp(which from every where I looked have terrible vibration issues), and the volvo 65hp.

One thing to mention about the Yanmar, the motor mounts are 18" centers as opposed to 22" on everything else. Your Ford Lehman is probably a 22" as well. I made aluminum brackets that bolt to the stingers to support the engine. Bedded them with fiberglass puddy we make ourselves. My stringers have a steel plate under the glass so my brackets are bolted down using existing holes and then lag bolted on top and on the side as well.

You may be ok with exhaust, I have to change my lift mufflers because the VW was 2.5" hose and the Yanmar is 3".

I personally have nothing against turbos, you just need to run a diesel like a diesel and not baby it, turbo or not. In regards to parts, from what I gather, there are certain things that are in fact pricey but are a long wear items. But everything else is for the most part priced right. And there is distribution around the world, and the next town over for me which couldn't be beat.

I'm hoping to have my started this time home before I go back offshore.

Some pictures of the engine and brackets.


----------



## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

FWIW, I used to be in the "turbos don't belong on boats" camp but then I bought a boat with a Yanmar 4JH3-HTE, which is the 100hp turbo version of the normally aspirated 75hp Yanmar of the same generation. It uses a small, water cooled IHI turbo that's been completely reliable and drama-free for over 4000 hours (400 in my hands and 4000 in the PO's hands). 

Yanmar recommends a turbo rebuild at 4000 hours, mainly to replace the brass turbo bearings which start to open up a bit and let oil seep through with age. I got a quote of $600 for a rebuild with a two year warranty. All in all, it seems like a pretty good deal for a 30% horsepower bump when you really need/want it. 

BTW, I run it like the PO did: 2500 RPM most of the time (vs. 3800 RPM at wide open throttle) with periodic 30 minute runs at WOT to get the exhaust gas temperature up and keep the injectors clean. Since it's generally running under low boost, I suspect there's little to no loss of engine life.


----------



## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

Med,

rule of thumb is now ~5 hp/ton. 30 years ago it was 2 hp/ton. Increase is due to comfort, cost and footprint (size). 
As others have said you then end up in the 75 hp range. 

Do not underpower, that will just lead to too low performance and high fuel consumption. 

We all have our personal feelings regarding one or the other brand. Note that these are mainly feelings. Look into facts, as total cost of ownership (TCO), parts availability as well as where you can find competent mechanics. 
Most of these "marine motors" are converted land-based ones, made for use in vechles or stationary as pumps etc. Maintenance is an issue worth looking into: some of the modern engines have a timing belt, which has to be replaced every xxx hour, or no later than y years. Doing this requires often to split the engine, which if boat installed lead to lift it as well. 

Modern Yanmars are not like the old ones: the old ones were based on pre-war designs (!), very sturdy of course. Modern are much better, but ... not the same. 
(Actually, it is about the same story for all brands).

Good Luck

/J


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

MedSailor said:


> Now that's a good idea! The port side of my engine is difficult to access as it is right now. Good thing to consider. Likely though, I'll end up with more clearance as the ford is a BIG engine.


My Yanmar can have a dipstick fitted on either side; it has been a while since I thought about it but I seem to recall that the oil filter can be fitted on either side also.

The high output alternator kit allows you to retain the stock alternator. Two running alternators provides a lot of charging flexibility. My 55A Hitachi charges the main and generator start batteries while the 110A Balmar charges the house bank. There is a cross-over switch.


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

killarney_sailor said:


> Something else to check, there are many things, is where the service points are on the engine and where the service portals are on your boat. You don't want an oil filter in some place that is really hard to deal with. i don't know why there is no standardization of locations. Would seem to be good for everyone.


One can mount the oil filters anywhere. A remote dual filter mount is not terribly expensive either.


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

As others have noted, 2 HP/Ton is on the low side. Most rules of thumb I've seen recently are more like 2 HP/1000 lbs. That would put you at 66 HP so an engine in the 65-75 HP range should be fine.


----------



## Dirtyfloats (Apr 21, 2014)

Cant help but be curious, how yer engine ended up seized in the first place...

Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Dirtyfloats said:


> Cant help but be curious, how yer engine ended up seized in the first place...
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


See the "I hate boats" thread....


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I have never seen Westerbeke parts in any country outside the USA. Maybe excepting the Caribbean. But Yanmar dealers and parts are everywhere. In really remote places you will see just a couple of parts and they are all Yanmar.

So if you are going outside the USA I would strongly suggest Yanmar for that. But also they dont have the legendary high prices of some engines... Mind you they are not cheap! Lol

Yanmars come with their own instruments.

Because more Cruisers have Yanmar than anything else that means more cruisers are around who can help you out!


----------



## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

*BETA Engines!*



Faster said:


> I'd add to your requirements the degree of modifications of the existing beds.. This can be a big job if it's a major redesign/reconstruction of that crucial area.


This is the primary reason I choose a Beta Engine. They have the unique ability to customize engine feet for your bed so that most likely little or no engine bed modifications are required. This was true for my install. The sheet they use to measure everything is very reliable when used correctly. So accurate, that for my Beta install all I needed to do was drill four new holes for the forward mounts as the engine is shorter then the old Westerbeake. This saves labor and time obviously, but it does cost more for the custom feet, I think I paid about $500 additional, a no brainer in my opinion. NONE of the other manufactures would do this, Yanmar, Westerbeake, even Nanni (another Kubota based marinized engine, Betas direct competitor). Yes, you can have a shop make mounts/feet for your new engine but Beta has it down. Most with the exception of Yanmar are tractor engines marinized (sp?), Yanmar claims they are purpose built, I say so what...its a diesel engine. I have had our Beta for two seasons now, about 200 on it, it has been a great engine. Another friend installed one in his Pearson 30 and the marina, Oak Harbor Marina in Pasadena MD is now a dealer. He loves his Beta. Our own moderator DRFerron installed a Beta in their Catalina 30 and I believe are very satisfied as well. Our engine is quiet, smooth, and starts like a gas engine. Parts are easy to come by and Beta even cross references some parts so you can purchase from a tractor dealer at very low prices compared to others, like Yanmar or Volvo. I am by no means a diesel mechanic, just suggesting you really consider the Beta in your search.

You need to speak with Stanley Feigenbaum at Beta Marine US Beta Marine US Ltd. Distributors for Kubota based marine Beta Marine US Ltd Contact Us

Please mention my name, Shawn, when you speak with Stanley. 

Cheers


----------



## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Forgot to mention, Beta has made basic maintenance on their engines super easy. Just read it on their website...east maintenance = better cared for engine = more reliable and longer life...no?

Here is a nice 60  betamarine - Engine View

oh yes, and for my engine choices, the Yanmar was a 3 cylinder vs a 4 for the beta, just say'in


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Great input so far! Thanks everybody! I'm learning a lot. 

Another issue has popped up. Apparently the new Yanmars I am looking at are "common rail injection systems" which, according to the mechanics I'm talking to, will give me a significant boost in fuel effeciency. Sounds good right? Another pointed out that instead of the injection pump being mechanically controlled, as it is on the older motors, it is controlled by a computer.

Computer on an engine..... on a boat.....

That gives me pause. Should it? It seems like everybody's doing it, and if I want an older style, I have to buy whatever I can find that's on someone's shelf, or a remanufacturered yanmar. 

MedSailor


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

If your competent and factory trained technician can get to your broken down super charged sewing machine motor that used to run at 3000rpm but now won't even pop and you don't know why, I can't think of any reason why you shouldn't follow "everybody".


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

These are the folks I've dealt with for over 20 years when it comes to diesel engines and parts. You might want to see what they can do to help you.
Good luck.
Contact Trans Atlantic Diesels


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

MedSailor said:


> Great input so far! Thanks everybody! I'm learning a lot.
> 
> Another issue has popped up. Apparently the new Yanmars I am looking at are "common rail injection systems" which, according to the mechanics I'm talking to, will give me a significant boost in fuel effeciency. Sounds good right? Another pointed out that instead of the injection pump being mechanically controlled, as it is on the older motors, it is controlled by a computer.
> 
> ...


Your gonna have no choose in the near future as most of the focus has been on SI (spark ignition) marine units

So now that the gasoline inboards are all EFI and water cooled catalytic converter the diesels time has come


----------



## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> Great input so far! Thanks everybody! I'm learning a lot.
> 
> Another issue has popped up. Apparently the new Yanmars I am looking at are "common rail injection systems" which, according to the mechanics I'm talking to, will give me a significant boost in fuel effeciency. Sounds good right? Another pointed out that instead of the injection pump being mechanically controlled, as it is on the older motors, it is controlled by a computer.
> 
> ...


My buddy has a 5.9L Cummins common rail engine on his trawler and it's been bulletproof. I've got the same 5.9L Cummins in unmarinized form in my truck and it's also been completely trouble free. That's N=2 except for the many thousands of other boats and trucks running around with the same engine without incident. At least Cummins has figured out how to make an engine management computer that can take it but unfortunately they don't make a 75-100 hp engine.

Frankly, I'd give Yanmar the benefit of the doubt on the computer and worry more about fuel cleanliness. Common rail injectors typically require 2 micron filtration and very good water separation (both liquid and emulsified) or Bad Things Will Happen. If you go common rail, plan on having a two stage filtration system with a 10 micron primary followed by a 2 micron secondary and plenty of water separation capacity.

As you mentioned, the benefits of common rail are significant: higher power, better economy, and much reduced emissions.


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

plan on having a two stage filtration system with a 10 micron primary followed by a 2 micron secondary and plenty of water separation capacity. Good advice for any system.


----------



## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

I did an engine conversion on my Willys truck, replacing the old Continental flat head 6 with a Ford 302 V-8. ABSOLUTELY nothing fit & had to be re-fabricated. I would never do it again. I can't imagine what it would be like in the confined space of a boat.

Suggest you do a lot of investigating if you decide to change engines, to keep "surprises" to a minimum. Keep us posted on your project, am interested to know what caused the failure?

Paul T


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Common rail engines require 2 micron filtration??!! That sounds like a pain. I have a tank polishing system and a dual racor setup but the tanks are old and inaccessible. Adding another stage of filtration will certainly up the install cost if this is true...

Med


----------



## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> Common rail engines require 2 micron filtration??!! That sounds like a pain. I have a tank polishing system and a dual racor setup but the tanks are old and inaccessible. Adding another stage of filtration will certainly up the install cost if this is true...


Med, it's as true as you want it to be 

For example, Dodge only specs a 6 micron filter for their Cummins-equipped trucks but Cummins themselves recommend a 2 micron filter, as does Bosch, who make the injectors and high pressure fuel pumps. A lot of truck owners therefore add a 2 micron secondary to extend injector life.

Adding a second stage filter isn't huge deal and can be done for as little as $250 for either a spin-on or cartridge style (e.g. a Racor Turbine 500). Of course, it costs more if you want to do the dual-filter-with-switch but it's not a requirement and if you've got switchable 10's, you don't need switchable 2's. It may even be that the engine itself incorporates a 2 micron fuel filter fitting.


----------



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> Common rail engines require 2 micron filtration??!! That sounds like a pain. I have a tank polishing system and a dual racor setup but the tanks are old and inaccessible. Adding another stage of filtration will certainly up the install cost if this is true...
> 
> Med


Sounds like you should change the tanks, probably full of water and bacteria.


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> Sounds like you should change the tanks, probably full of water and bacteria.


I agree in principle, and i cut inspection ports and hand scrubbed the tanks of my last boat, but on this boat it would be easier to build another boat.

Some things are best left in the nigel caulder book. :')

I guess adding more filters isn't expensive compared to the engine replacement im staring down.

When finished i may have a single racor for the polisher. A single racor for the genset. And 2 dual racors in series for the main (filters on the engine don't count in my book).

Thats 6 racors plus engine filtration. Crap! You could filter T-cells out of blood with that setup...

Would it be insider trading for me to tell you to buy stock in racor?

Medsailor


----------



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> I agree in principle, and i cut inspection ports and hand scrubbed the tanks of my last boat, but on this boat it would be easier to build another boat.
> 
> Some things are best left in the nigel caulder book. :')
> 
> ...


Has this boat got a history of sailing for long periods in some rough seas to have shaken things up a bit? Or during your first outing in some rough seas are all your filters going to clog? That would really be bad after seeing all the work put into repower.


----------



## cheoah (Jul 5, 2011)

I'm running common rails on the farm now, and one of the sedans. They are great motors. There's a lot less to go wrong on my crude 3HM35F, and no port for diagnostics. Long term we're sure to be running more sophisticated engines but I'm reluctant to move on from a non turbo, conventional mechanical fuel pump. Bad fuel could be a very expensive problem. Filters or not, some are going to see this failure of the pricey HPFP. People that are more sophisticated about fuel system management are less likely to have issues, but no guarantee. 

I had my concerns on farm, and did in fact give up some control over repairs. I can pull codes but have yet to gain access to the Deere diagnostics. The machines have been solid, with about 500 hours each season on b50. High torque at low RPM's. For domestic coastal cruising, it would be a great new improvement in noise, fuel,efficiency, vibration. I'd be anxious going to remote places in developing countries with a modern common rail just yet. 




Sent from my iSomething using Tapatalk
Please forgive typos and commas


----------



## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Must be normally aspirated and must be an overhead valve (OHV) engine.
Do not put a turbo in there, and no overhead cams. Don't.
I like the sound of the Kubota-based Beta marine motors.
Be careful about the prop rotation direction. It may be different.
I would not, under any circumstances, put a Volvo in there. Volvo spare parts prices will catch up with you later if you do. Been there, done that. Indeed, still doing that until I need a new motor.
.


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> Has this boat got a history of sailing for long periods in some rough seas to have shaken things up a bit? Or during your first outing in some rough seas are all your filters going to clog? That would really be bad after seeing all the work put into repower.


The boat has a long history of not being used much, followed by several years of not being used at all. This occured in Florida, where it's warm. Diesel bugs love it when it's warm....

I've been cooking up a solution to the presumed problem I have of stowaways in my diesel tank. Luckily I can draw from the experience of my prior 2 boats. Double lucky, I have an awesome filtration setup on this boat, and it has two tanks. If I do run into issues, I have a dual racor engine filtration setup with gauge so I should be able to see the pressure rising, and I should be able to switch to the second filter without shutting down the engine.

Here's my plan:

1. Everything will be done first to the starboard tank, and if each step doesn't cause disaster, the port tank will follow. The reasoning here is that if I HAVE to cut inspection ports into a tank to clean it out, it's much easier to do this on the port tank.

2. First, I will add StarTron, or SolTron and run the polisher. I'll keep an eye on how quickly the polisher filters clog up. They're racor 500s, like in my engine filtration, so they should give me a heads up on how quickly the engine ones will clog. I also hope to run the polisher every time I get into rough water.

3. IF step 2 doesn't cause massive filter blockage, I will add Biobor JF. I've seen this stuff take clean appearing diesel and turn it into coffee-ground central. To me, this is a dangerous and telling step. I did this once on an 8 galon tank and I got so much precipitate (dead critters) suddenly appearing that it clogged the fuel lines.

4. Run the polisher again, watching the vacuum gauges and filter blockage rate.

5. If step 3 didn't cause mayhem, continue with the Biobor JF forevermore and repeat the process on the other tank.

MedSailor


----------



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> The boat has a long history of not being used much, followed by several years of not being used at all. This occured in Florida, where it's warm. Diesel bugs love it when it's warm....
> 
> I've been cooking up a solution to the presumed problem I have of stowaways in my diesel tank. Luckily I can draw from the experience of my prior 2 boats. Double lucky, I have an awesome filtration setup on this boat, and it has two tanks. If I do run into issues, I have a dual racor engine filtration setup with gauge so I should be able to see the pressure rising, and I should be able to switch to the second filter without shutting down the engine.
> 
> ...


Med,
The concern I would have is that the bacteria seems to settle at the bottom of the tank. Does your polishing system create enough turbulance in the entire tank to stir the bateria up so that it is mixed up through the entire tank? From what I know of the commercial tank polisher companies- they use a high volume pump to really stir the tank up so that the junk can be filtered out. Maybe you could have your tanks commercially cleaned and polished first, then use your system You could probably even have a tank inspection done using one of these fiber optic cameras through the fill port to make sure the walls are clean:






On my boat the po had engine stalling problems. I traced it to the tank. Tank was full of bacteria and clogged the tank suction tube strainer. Luckily I have a moeller 19 gallon translucent tank with easy access. I can take off the fill hose and shine light to look into the tank. After 5 years I see a lot of what I guess is bactera sloshing around the bottom of the tank- a lot of it (I do use BioBor JR with every fill). Interesting thing even though I sail in some rough seas (8-10 feet wind chop is not uncommon) the bateria still stays in the bottom of the tank and I get none in the filters (I have a racor 10micron with water sep and yanmar engine mounted filter). So what that tells me is that you need significant turbulance to get all the bacteria suspension, or have a treamendous amount of bacteria in tank (which I did have). I will be pulling my tank in a few months (like I did when I had the bacteria problem) and clean completely.


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

I think professional tank cleaning/polishing is done with a high pressure wand thru an inspection port .Port can be quite small. Baffles are always a problem. Well worth it for older tanks. Then the high end filter system starts off with a clean slate, so to speak.


----------



## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

While we are on the topic of fuel...

Prior to the finish of my engine install I had the tank cleaned professionally and all the fuel removed (yes all 50 gallons). They started by circulating the fuel already in the tank at a very high speed, then used the wand under high pressure to clean any remaining gunk. Took them about two hours. I did not reuse the fuel, it was two years old at that point. So +1 for having your tanks cleaned occasionally.

As for filters, I set up a Racor unit plus a Racor Fuel Polisher unit like this Parker - P4 FUEL FILTER/WATER SEPARATOR

They are plumbed so that the standard Racor is the primary filter, if I want to clean the fuel in the tank I switch three valves and run it through the Racor polisher unit for about 30 minutes, that will filter the entire tank. It also plumbed so the polisher can be use as a back filter if needed. So I could change out the regular filter then switch everything back to normal operation. I have a chart and step by step posted right in the engine room. Of course the engine has its own filter as well, cant remember the micron but its more than the primary unit.

Of course the engine itself will send a pretty good % of fuel back to the tank, so if you use the engine often enough its polishing itself. I bought the P4 unit from Racor because it was only a few dollars more then a regular unit and this one has a electric pump that can be use to prime as well as a heater for the fuel plus the option to use it as a backup filter if the other clogs. It cost a little less than $300 IIRC. That's A LOT less expensive then some of the others systems you see out there that are probably overkill for a small sailboat engine. The Boss or whatever its called is like $2000 right?

Cheers


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> Med,
> The concern I would have is that the bacteria seems to settle at the bottom of the tank. Does your polishing system create enough turbulance in the entire tank to stir the bateria up so that it is mixed up through the entire tank? From what I know of the commercial tank polisher companies- they use a high volume pump to really stir the tank up so that the junk can be filtered out. Maybe you could have your tanks commercially cleaned and polished first, then use your system You could probably even have a tank inspection done using one of these fiber optic cameras through the fill port to make sure the walls are clean:
> 
> Mini 7mm USB Flexible Inspection Camera Microscope Endoscope Borescope: Amazon.com: Home Improvement


Wow that's cool! Medsailor says thank you for this useful post. 

Being able to see what lurkes in the tank will really help me determine if my plan if viable, or if I need to plan to cut into the tanks at some point. Obviously cutting into the tanks is best, and the peace of mind you get from polished clean walls is great, but they really are hard to get to on my boat.

I could use this cheap endoscope and if I see a normal amount of sludge, and especially if I see it decreasing with my chemical additions and filtration, then I know I'm on track. If, on the other hand I put the scope in the tank and something peers back at me, and eats the end off the scope.... well... I'll be time to do major tank surgery.

Now I don't have to steal an endoscope from the OR at work! 

MedSailor


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I find it amazing that there are no long or short blocks available for your Ford Lehman 90HP, as it is basically just a tractor engine, but I'm sure you have done your due diligence, so I will take you at your word.
Personally I would not, under any circumstances, if I was going beyond the reach of Seatow or BoatUS, install any engine with electronics on it. It seems just foolish to have an engine which can run just fine without any electricity at all, that can be brought to a complete stop by one little tiny burnt resistor on a PC board. Spare boards are expensive and do not hold up well, stored until needed. At one time, the standard in the large power boat industry was MTU diesel engines, until they retooled to electronic controls and then they became known as Marine Trouble Units, rarely if ever, seen today.
I have a great fondness for Gardner Marine Diesels. They are the most reliable, economical and best designed diesel engines I have ever had the pleasure to have on a boat. One I had would push an 125 ton vessel at 10 knots on 5 gph, at 375 rpm! If you absolutely must get another engine and go through all the extra work and expense of installing a new engine, I would certainly consider a Gardner; Joe McCool (yes really) [email protected]. Say hi to Joe from me if you contact him.
However, as I suggested originally, if the insurance company doesn't come through, a rebuild of your present engine is not beyond the range of a shade tree mechanic. If it has been filled with diesel, once in your garage or workshop, with only a few hours a week to invest, you should have everything ship shape and operating before summer.


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

While I have not read the thread to completion, I would avoid any engine using a "direct injection" technology. Not because I have a fear of newish things, but because marine diesel is dirty and wet. Also when an electronic injector fails, it fails primarily open.
When an injector fails open it becomes a blowtorch. It melts the top of the piston, and the engine then needs rebuilt. Not to mention you just lost your engine in under 3 seconds.

Stick to IDI mechanical injectors.
Beta marine sells a kubota engine like this.

My money is going on a non-marinized engine.
I will be buying a regular kubota, for 3-4K, then adding a keel cooler, and dry exhaust.
All in the replacement should be under 6K, for a 60HP engine.

The new diesels are nice, and quiet, but I will take a little rattle, over complete silence of a blown engine.


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Capta, you may be right that I need to do more research to see if there is a tractor version of my engine block available somewhere. The only rebuilt ford lehmon they found me was something like 14K, which is 2K more than a brand new yanmar... I also didn't like that it had a 6 month warranty.

I hear you about the new fangled computers on boats. I've been assured that the computers are "the most reliable part of the engine and the least likely part to break." Ummm.... yeah.... Might be true, but I'll believe it when you prove it.

Proving their reliability is also becoming problematic. I've been looking hard at John Deere marine engines as they turn slow like my Ford and can use the same reduction gear, prop, engine mount width etc. I asked for a second quote from another Deere dealer and he had not heard of the engine I was talking about. He got back to me and told me "Deere hasn't released that engine yet. It's brand new and should be available in 2 months."

Greaaaaat. Brand new engine. I don't want to be anyone's guinea pig. The Yanmars I'm looking at are also models that just came out this year. Something to do with a new tier of EPA regulations.

Curiously Beta *does* seem to have large, non-turbo engines that might not be computer controlled (have to verify that last part). I'm not sure how they're able to do that with the new EPA regs, because it seems none of the other brands can.... The betas are also my* most expensive* option at this point for initial price, and they will require new gauges, mounts, and transmission....

I'm definitely favoring a rebuild of my own engine at this point. I know some local marine mechanics that seem to have a good reputation and I believe they'd stand by their work. Then, I can get my "they don't make 'em like they used to" engine back in my boat with a minimum of fuss.

MedSailor


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> I'm definitely favoring a rebuild of my own engine at this point. I know some local marine mechanics that seem to have a good reputation and I believe they'd stand by their work. Then, I can get my "they don't make 'em like they used to" engine back in my boat with a minimum of fuss.
> 
> MedSailor


Depends on the engine, and age. Not sure I would rebuild a 30 year old block, or any engine that used raw water inside the block, as some of those fords did.

If the rebuild is over $4000, dont bother.

Also I am a diesel mechanic, not some sailing joe.


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> Depends on the engine, and age. Not sure I would rebuild a 30 year old block, or any engine that used raw water inside the block, as some of those fords did.
> 
> If the rebuild is over $4000, dont bother.
> 
> Also I am a diesel mechanic, not some sailing joe.


Thanks for the thoughts, and I appreciate your opinion. The engine is about 30 years old, is freshwater cooled (heat exchanger) and has 1,450 hours on it. Does that change your opinions on the rebuild option one way or the other?

MedSailor


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> Thanks for the thoughts, and I appreciate your opinion. The engine is about 30 years old, is freshwater cooled (heat exchanger) and has 1,450 hours on it. Does that change your opinions on the rebuild option one way or the other?
> 
> MedSailor


What is the HP rating?
did they or you drain the coolant yet? how did that look?


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> What is the HP rating?
> did they or you drain the coolant yet? how did that look?


90HP at 2,500 RPM. Haven't drained the coolant. Autopsy is scheduled for tomorrow...


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> 90HP at 2,500 RPM. Haven't drained the coolant. Autopsy is scheduled for tomorrow...


for a 40' boat? wow.
That would put you in this kubota engine,
Kubota V3800DIT Diesel Engine Bobcat S330 T320 | eBay

The internal rebuild should be quoted by a tractor shop, not marine yard. 
Call a few ford tractor repair places, tell them the engine model number. 
I do not see why the cost of a rebuild would be over $4000, unless your someplace expensive with no local farming community.

Can you get on plane with that engine


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

UnionPacific said:


> .
> My money is going on a non-marinized engine.
> I will be buying a regular kubota, for 3-4K, then adding a keel cooler, and dry exhaust.
> All in the replacement should be under 6K, for a 60HP engine.
> The new diesels are nice, and quiet, but I will take a little rattle, over complete silence of a blown engine.


I'd be extremely cautious about putting "a non-marinized engine" in your boat. I'm not sure about Kubota, but Cats and Detroits use different injectors, pistons, rings, push rods, etc. for each application. Also, a marinized engine will have a different paint job, from the metal up, that will minimize the chances that after a few years, you have a hunk of rust where you should have a nice, shiny, painted diesel engine. If you ever expect to sail to the tropics, a keel cooler may not be the best option for you either.


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

capta said:


> I'd be extremely cautious about putting "a non-marinized engine" in your boat. I'm not sure about Kubota, but Cats and Detroits use different injectors, pistons, rings, push rods, etc. for each application. Also, "a non-marinized engine" will have a different paint job, from the metal up, that will minimize the chances that after a few years, you have a hunk of rust where you should have a nice, shiny, painted diesel engine. If you ever expect to sail to the tropics, a keel cooler may not be the best option for you either.


When injectors, pistons, rings, rods, are changed its for more power, as marine engines theoretically have unlimited cooling, AKA an ocean. Also people want power, not longevity, thou they typically do not realize they lose longevity with more power.

Yes, paint job will not be as good, but I guess you could get it repainted, the paint on my westerleak is gone a long time ago.....

Keel cooler needs to be properly sized based on HP and sea water temp.
No different then a heat exchanger, that is inside out.


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

UnionPacific said:


> When injectors, pistons, rings, rods, are changed its for more power, as marine engines theoretically have unlimited cooling, AKA an ocean. Also people want power, not longevity, thou they typically do not realize they lose longevity with more power.
> 
> Yes, paint job will not be as good, but I guess you could get it repainted, the paint on my westerleak is gone a long time ago.....
> 
> ...


GM determines the "power pack" requirements by application, NOT power. You need a completely different set up for a city bus than you would for a long haul semi, or even an around town transporter, though all three use exactly the same block. Vessels operate at a high rpm for extended periods, without a gear box, whereas vehicles all have different variations of gears, rpms and extended idle periods. Don't make the mistake of thinking a non marine engine will do the job because it seems to be the same on the outside. You will have nothing but trouble with your engine (and spend a great deal more in the long run) if you try to save money this way, if you expect to be using your boat for anything more than a weekender.
A keel cooler will not work nearly as efficiently in warm tropical waters and the rapid growth of marine organisms will further reduce the cooling capacity of the system. The resistance of all that junk underwater will reduce your vessel's sailing ability, greatly. Ask anyone who lives in the tropics, the "new, environmentally friendly" antifouling paints hardly do a decent job, so you will have to spend much more time cleaning your keel cooler than you would maintaining a regular system. Again, false economy, unless you stay in temperate waters.


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I appreciate all the expert advice. I'm listening. 

I do have a farming community here, and a tractor shop about 25min from my house. I may pay them a visit just to see if they have repair people with a much cheaper hourly rate. I kind of doubt it though, since the marine diesel mechanics that I trust here are $85/hr and my car mechanic is $89/hr. 

I'd love to go the keel cooler and dry exhaust route, and have the exhaust plumbed to exit from the top of my mizzen mast, but changing the cooling system is going to involve waaaay too much engineering to be feasible. Besides, I'd be trading the risks of sinking and flooding my engine for risks of fire from the exhaust. 

When I'm rich I'll have Bob Perry design me the dry exhaust boat I want, but I won't be making the conversion on this one. 

MedSailor


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

capta said:


> GM determines the "power pack" requirements by application, NOT power. You need a completely different set up for a city bus than you would for a long haul semi, or even an around town transporter, though all three use exactly the same block. Vessels operate at a high rpm for extended periods, without a gear box, whereas vehicles all have different variations of gears, rpms and extended idle periods. Don't make the mistake of thinking a non marine engine will do the job because it seems to be the same on the outside. You will have nothing but trouble with your engine (and spend a great deal more in the long run) if you try to save money this way, if you expect to be using your boat for anything more than a weekender.
> A keel cooler will not work nearly as efficiently in warm tropical waters and the rapid growth of marine organisms will further reduce the cooling capacity of the system. The resistance of all that junk underwater will reduce your vessel's sailing ability, greatly. Ask anyone who lives in the tropics, the "new, environmentally friendly" antifouling paints hardly do a decent job, so you will have to spend much more time cleaning your keel cooler than you would maintaining a regular system. Again, false economy, unless you stay in temperate waters.


I am talking about industrial/farm engines. 
In a skid-steer like out old bobcat we ran the engine full throttle for 16 hours at a time, typically overloading it to the point of stalling. 
I am not talking about taking a road truck/bus engine into a boat.

As for the keel cooler, you must pick a good location, and they are bronze, and you would not anti-foul, you would scrape and brush clean.


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> I appreciate all the expert advice. I'm listening.
> 
> I do have a farming community here, and a tractor shop about 25min from my house. I may pay them a visit just to see if they have repair people with a much cheaper hourly rate. I kind of doubt it though, since the marine diesel mechanics that I trust here are $85/hr and my car mechanic is $89/hr.
> 
> ...


I would check them out, my local shop in NY used to be $45 an hour.
Car mechanics are expensive because of liability, if you forget to put torque on a lug nut, and kill 10 people, thats a heck of a thing, VS a farm accident, with little risk of injury. Heck, I was in 3 farm accidents, a PTO shaft entanglement, a roll over, and a wheel coming off, I am still here and have all my parts 
A dry exhaust can be safe, its becoming more common now, and will grow in popularity. As the old fire fear dies away.

Another benefit of the tractor shop is parts prices. Quote a full rebuild kit from both


----------



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Med,
I was curious about used Ford Lehman 90's and looks like your are right- hard to come by.

I did a search and found these guys:

http://americandieselcorp.com/

Called them up and asked some questions (804-435-3107)
They seem very knowledgable and seem to think even if your engine got sea water in it, it could easily be rebuidable, and at a resonable cost- American Diesel seems to have all the parts you need for rebuild (but not blocks).

Other option they have rebuilt Ford Lehman 80's that are a direct fit on your engine mounts for $9,000 (not sure what warranty is). Apparently the 80's was a much more common engine and blocks are readily available for rebuild.

Disadvantage they are in Virginia, however it might be worth a call to them...


----------



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Med,
Maybe it was in a past post but cannot find it now.
What is your estimated rebuid cost or the cost of a rebuilt Lehman 90?
What is the cost of your proposed Yanmar?


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

For those that are watching, my options appear to be as follows:

*1: Rebuild my engine (quote from the yard).* 10K rebuild labor (seems like a lot) plus removal and reinstall. 1k for freight to Georgia and back for the rebuild. 6 month warranty. Keep existing gauges, mounts, transmission and prop. Install labor quoted at 3K. *Total 14K*

*2: Rebuilt lehman 80hp.* I was quoted $12,500 for one of these, but Casey199 found one for $9,000.* Thanks casey! 6 month warranty. Keep existing gauges, mounts, transmission and prop. Install labor quoted at 3K. *Total: 12K*

*3: Rebuild my engine by hiring local mechanics I trust. * They say 1-2 year warranty depending on which parts of the engine I'm talking about. Unknown labor cost yet for them to rebuild but he said "this won't take me very long". Quote for rebuild pending. Keep existing gauges, mounts, transmission and prop. Install labor quoted at 3K *Total cost unknown.*

*4 New yanmar 75-80HP turbo common rail*. $12,500 for the motor. 2-3 year warranty. I could use the existing transmission with a $1,000 adaptor and huge efficiency losses or spend 3K on a new transmission. Will require fabricated engine mounting points, new gauges and throttles and a new prop. Install labor quoted at $5k but there are more unknowns. 1K for gauges, throttles etc. *Total $22,000-ish with lots of unknowns*

*5: Beta 75. Non-turbo.* $21,000 for the motor with transmission. 2-3 year warranty. Beta custom mounts may save some mounting labor. Requires new prop, gauges and throttles ($2K). Install labor 5k. *Total 28K with some unknowns.*

*6: John Deere 100HP turbo common rail. *$18,000 for the motor. 2-3 year warranty. Slow turning engine bolts up to my existing transmission and I can keep my trannie and prop (and pitch). Engine mounts will fit existing stringers. Engine is reportedly super reliable, but physically larger, which will make working on it harder. Neds new gauges and throttles 1K. Install cost 4K *Total 23K*

There you have it so far. Them's the options I have on the table....

MedSailor

*And yes, americandieselcorp is THE place. Don, who owns it is apparently the guy hired by ford to head the marinization project of the lehmans. I've called them and asked a few questions but didn't try and source my own motor yet. Thanks again!


----------



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Ok, I am waiting for the "rest of the story". This is all very interesting.


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I would go with option number 3. Disconnect the engine yourself. Get the yard to use a crane to lift if from the boat and drop in the back of a pickup. Drive it to the diesel shop. After rebuild, have the yard crane drop it back in. Reconnect engine yourself. Pay a marine diesel mechanic to check the installation and alignment when you are finished.


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

That's about what I did . A day to lift engine (95 hp Isuzu) on to bridge deck A day to take Thane to the fuel dock by skiff power and lift into pickup and return to slip. Took engine to shop and told them I'd be back for it when I get back from Thailand. Reversed the process in the spring and hooked every thing up. Two days (i work alone).Charged myself an good hourly wage and added it to the bill .My deductable of 5 grand covered half of the total and insurance the rest. My butt bruises have healed now (such a stupid move ) but looks like I did OK when I see your numbers ,Med. (could have rebuilt it myself but I need my beach time)


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

MedSailor said:


> *1: Rebuild my engine (quote from the yard).* *Total 14K*
> 
> *2: Rebuilt lehman 80hp.* *Total: 12K*
> 
> ...


With those options, I would do the rebuild myself, or buy a small diesel tractor and do a swap for a total cost of closer to $5k.


----------



## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

The Bumfuzzle folks had a Lehman Ford in their boat. It leaked water from what looked something like the block "rotting" out. Think he had sleeves installed then sold the boat. Don't know if it was related to that particular engine or just happened, maybe because of electrolysis?

Bumfuzzle

He had pictures of the damage in his "Adventures" section, maybe a year or two ago?

Paul T


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

ianjoub said:


> With those options, I would do the rebuild myself, or buy a small diesel tractor and do a swap for a total cost of closer to $5k.


Unfortunately for me, that's not an option. I work 55hr weeks, am a 50% partner in a new medical business that we are expanding, and have a 2 year old and a 2 week old at home. I'd LOVE to give it a try, but it just ain't gunna' happen that way.

If I go the local rebuild route I'm hoping that on some day I'm not working I can be there for a day of the rebuild and watch them do their magic. It won't be as good as learning by doing it myself, but I bet I'd learn a lot watching them tear down and rebuild my engine. I'll bring coffee and doughnuts.

MedSailor


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

MedSailor said:


> Unfortunately for me, that's not an option. I work 55hr weeks, am a 50% partner in a new medical business that we are expanding, and have a 2 year old and a 2 week old at home.


Lol.... The comment was more telling about my financial state that your mechanical ability


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

forget the 3K r&r cost. build a engine lift, have a few friends over for beer, food and an engine swap.
Get a firm price from the local shop in writing. assume new pistons, rings, bearings, flux the head, polish the crank, replace every bearing, and gasket. Do not skip a single part. replace all hoses, new mixing elbow, get the exhaust manifold ceramic coated. 

BTW the $11,000 price for rebuild is a huge joke. move along, nothing to see there.


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Just had a brain fart memory about the Ford. If the manifold is raw water cooled(most boats are fresh cooled and even maybe dry stack) everything depends on the flimsy little gasket on the plate where the exhaust comes out. A failure there can flood the engine and yarding forth and back on the exhaust system (as on the road) can cause the failure


----------



## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

Hey Med, so you know the Yanmar comes with its own panel, gauges, and wire harness in the crate. As far as I know, I didn't see any electronics or anything that resembled a ecm or ecu... I'll look again but I think everyone is freaking out over something trivial.


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

BoatyardBoy said:


> Hey Med, so you know the Yanmar comes with its own panel, gauges, and wire harness in the crate. As far as I know, I didn't see any electronics or anything that resembled a ecm or ecu... I'll look again but I think everyone is freaking out over something trivial.


One of the awesome features of my boat is that it has TWO steering stations. For the purposes of a repower that will require buying a second gauge pack and throttle lever unless I stick with what I have.

Common rail diesels, from what I gather use a pizo electric solenoid (or something like that) to open the injectors and it's not mechanically controlled. Maybe it is all solid state stuff and as reliable as they say... who knows?

I did get several more opinions from professional mechanics about filtration and they all say 10micron is spec for common rail. That's good news, 2micron is nothing but trouble...

MedSailor


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> One of the awesome features of my boat is that it has TWO steering stations. For the purposes of a repower that will require buying a second gauge pack and throttle lever unless I stick with what I have.
> 
> Common rail diesels, from what I gather use a pizo electric solenoid (or something like that) to open the injectors and it's not mechanically controlled. Maybe it is all solid state stuff and as reliable as they say... who knows?
> 
> ...


Very bad information, very very bad.
Common rail is 2 micro spec, per Bosch, the ones who make them, and even then, the filter needs to be great quality.
The fuel also need to be free of any air, as air will ruin injectors and the HP injector pump very quickly.

The new common rails are very long lasting and reliable, until something breaks. 
Then your cannot limp them, you must shut them off within seconds of failure, of the engine will need a new piston. With a common rail there is no warning of impending failure of the injector, one day it just gets stuck, and typically open.
This melts the piston. I would not put a commonrail on a single engine sailboat, and I would not use two without a good repair kitty to fund new injectors and rebuilds. We typically got 100,000 road miles from there injectors, 2000 hours, I would say changing them at 1000 hours would be a safe bet. Then the price of the injector must be taken into account too, 500-1800 depending where you can find them. Thats EACH.

So do what you want, its your boat, but take my advice, go with an IDI engine. 
They do sell IDI engines with electronic throttles. And if you do go common rail, 2 micron, with a complex system: water separator, 10 micron filter, then 2 micron filter. Having a system to remove air is a good idea as well.


----------



## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

UnionPacific said:


> Very bad information, very very bad.
> Common rail is 2 micro spec, per Bosch, the ones who make them, and even then, the filter needs to be great quality.
> The fuel also need to be free of any air, as air will ruin injectors and the HP injector pump very quickly.
> 
> ...


While I'm all for multistage fuel filtration, let's not stoke irrational fears of common rail. A Racor Turbine with a 10 micron element will be just fine as a first stage and does a great job separating both liquid phase and emulsified water. A second Turbine with a 2 micron element as a secondary would cover all the bases. There's no need for an air separator unless you're trying to "roll coal" or otherwise exceed the design limits of the engine and want to get every last microgram of fuel into the combustion chamber. Under anything near normal conditions the vapor content of the fuel is less than 10%, well within the design tolerance of the injectors and high pressure pump.


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

IStream said:


> While I'm all for multistage fuel filtration, let's not stoke irrational fears of common rail. A Racor Turbine with a 10 micron element will be just fine as a first stage and does a great job separating both liquid phase and emulsified water. A second Turbine with a 2 micron element as a secondary would cover all the bases. There's no need for an air separator unless you're trying to "roll coal" or otherwise exceed the design limits of the engine and want to get every last microgram of fuel into the combustion chamber. Under anything near normal conditions the vapor content of the fuel is less than 10%, well within the design tolerance of the injectors and high pressure pump.


I like to be safe with a marine injector. I had a good source of injectors for on-road cummins that I could get for $400 each, This yanmar may use a one-off injector, and then charge $2000 each, because they can. I think I would also just use a big-rig 10 micron filter, that does not need to be anything fancy, as long as the water removal is great.

EDIT: Rolling coal in a sailboat. A perfect way to show people I am not sailing because I care about mother earth, and I thought I would have to rename my boat, "nuke the whales".....


----------



## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

UnionPacific said:


> I like to be safe with a marine injector. I had a good source of injectors for on-road cummins that I could get for $400 each, This yanmar may use a one-off injector, and then charge $2000 each, because they can. I think I would also just use a big-rig 10 micron filter, that does not need to be anything fancy, as long as the water removal is great.
> 
> EDIT: Rolling coal in a sailboat. A perfect way to show people I am not sailing because I care about mother earth, and I thought I would have to rename my boat, "nuke the whales".....


I picture a MacGregor retrofitted with a Cummins QSB, a Smarty, and a couple of big rig stacks blasting through a no-wake zone at 35kts. I guarantee there's a market for a thousand of those...


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

IStream said:


> I picture a MacGregor retrofitted with a Cummins QSB, a Smarty, and a couple of big rig stacks blasting through a no-wake zone at 35kts. I guarantee there's a market for a thousand of those...


I bet with propane injection and a snow kit I could get 1400HP to the prop and get 65 knots


----------



## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

IStream said:


> While I'm all for multistage fuel filtration, let's not stoke irrational fears of common rail. A Racor Turbine with a 10 micron element will be just fine as a first stage and does a great job separating both liquid phase and emulsified water. A second Turbine with a 2 micron element as a secondary would cover all the bases. There's no need for an air separator unless you're trying to "roll coal" or otherwise exceed the design limits of the engine and want to get every last microgram of fuel into the combustion chamber. Under anything near normal conditions the vapor content of the fuel is less than 10%, well within the design tolerance of the injectors and high pressure pump.


Sorry to quote my own post, Med, but it's important to recognize that having a 2 micron filter as a secondary is very different than having it as a primary. When it's primary, it has to stop all particles from 2 microns up to the ID of your fuel line. When it's secondary, it only has to stop particles from 2 microns up to 10 microns (or whatever your primary is rated for). Generally the 2 micron secondary will last at least as long as the primary and often longer.


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

IStream said:


> Sorry to quote my own post, Med, but it's important to recognize that having a 2 micron filter as a secondary is very different than having it as a primary. When it's primary, it has to stop all particles from 2 microns up to the ID of your fuel line. When it's secondary, it only has to stop particles from 2 microns up to 10 microns (or whatever your primary is rated for). Generally the 2 micron secondary will last at least as long as the primary and often longer.


Mostly but not entirely.

Filters are rated based on a _percentage_ of particles at the rated size being stopped, not all of them. Interestingly, as filters capture particles, the particles themselves increase the filtration rate. What that means is that a filter that has been in service for a while will do a better job of filtering even as the flow rate declines.

I definitely agree with Istream that staggered filters are a good plan. 30/10 or 10/2 are fine plans. I use 10/10 (Yanmar 4JH4E) but some people make other choices. Filtering fuel on the way into the tanks certainly helps. Fuel polishing helps a lot.


----------



## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

SVAuspicious said:


> Mostly but not entirely.
> 
> Filters are rated based on a _percentage_ of particles at the rated size being stopped, not all of them. Interestingly, as filters capture particles, the particles themselves increase the filtration rate. What that means is that a filter that has been in service for a while will do a better job of filtering even as the flow rate declines.


Mostly but not entirely ;o)

I didn't claim that the 2 micron filter would stop all particles great than 2 microns, only that the range of sizes it would be exposed to would narrow dramatically which is why the filter will last longer as a secondary.


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

The important part of this to take away is this engine with direct injection is fragile. 
If you buy one it will be the most quiet, the most fuel efficient, the cleanest running engine you have ever owned.
If it breaks down it will be the biggest headache you will ever have, if you live to talk about it.

Thats whats nice about the good old IDI engines on a boat. You could run a 50% mixutre of gasoline by accident thru it, and it would survive. you can have an injector fail, and keep running the engine till port or safe harbor, you can run your fuel tanks dry, and not hurt them. 
Oh, and don't forget, thou it is extremely rare, if the computer goes on the fritz (lightning strike?) power surge, short circuit, water intrusion, and your in a place far from home, good luck.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

UnionPacific said:


> The important part of this to take away is this engine with direct injection is fragile.
> If you buy one it will be the most quiet, the most fuel efficient, the cleanest running engine you have ever owned.
> If it breaks down it will be the biggest headache you will ever have, if you live to talk about it.
> 
> ...


For me this is what would sway me. I like old solid mechanical motors in sailboats. If I had a power boat with two motors and could make it back with one, and fuel economy was a bigger issue I would do new common rail computer controlled in a heart beat. In a sail boat where it is used to get in and out of harbor and occasional, ok more than occasional, motor sailing I think I would go old tech. I have read enough stories about high pressure pumps failing on VWs (Bosch pumps) to worry me about a boat install that necessarily has more moisture and movement of the tank to bring up sludge. I have been shopping for a VW TDI so the motors don't scare me in a car, but on a boat yes.

Then add to that the higher cost of replacement parts! By the way if you are planning on going to the Pacific and are relying on the Yanmar parts distribution network it might make sense to send them and email or phone call to see if they carry parts for the newer engines. Perhaps give them a list of replacement parts for a mild rebuild and see if they can get them. I would have no issue at all with a mechanically injected Yanmar, but the electronically controlled on a boat no way.


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

IStream said:


> SVAuspicious said:
> 
> 
> > IStream said:
> ...


I think we are on the same general page, but you did say "stop all particles from 2 microns up" which isn't exactly how filters work. It's a high percentage thing.


----------



## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

UnionPacific said:


> The important part of this to take away is this engine with direct injection is fragile.
> If you buy one it will be the most quiet, the most fuel efficient, the cleanest running engine you have ever owned.
> If it breaks down it will be the biggest headache you will ever have, if you live to talk about it.


Again, UP, I think you're stoking irrational fears. Clean fuel and a good workout to raise exhaust gas temperatures on a regular basis will prevent 99% of the issues with common rails that you cite. With clean fuel, you should get you far more than 2000 hours from a set of injectors (Yanmar recommends injector cleaning at 1500 hour intervals and a detailed teardown every 3000 hours, see: http://yanmar.com/product/marineple...on/operationmanual/JH-CR_OPM_0AJHC-M00011.pdf)

Even in the case of an injector failure, the vast majority of the time the spray pattern degrades, you lose power and the exhaust starts to get sooty. Can you melt a piston? Sure, if you jam an injector open with a 10 micron boulder or let enough water through for a long enough period to corrode the pin but neither of those happens with decent fuel filtration, even with ****ty fuel in the tank.

Here are the bottom lines in my mind:

1. If you can't or won't install and maintain the filtration necessary to ensure clean fuel at the engine, don't get a common rail.

2. If you think you've got a much. much better than average chance of a lighting strike then don't get a common rail.

3. If you don't pay attention to loss of power, sooty exhaust, or other symptoms of aging injectors and/or don't want to have the injectors cleaned & inspected every 1500 hours, don't get a common rail.

I can completely understand the attractiveness of an older, simpler engine but that doesn't justify overstating the case against a newer, cleaner, quieter, more efficient engine. Judge each one on its legitimate merits and demerits.


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Just looked at the manual.
LOL
It requires ultra low sulfur diesel. <15PPM.
Good luck with that.
Must have an EGR valve...... that will be fun....

No idea how your going to clean a common rail injector without dissembling, and re-balancing. 
Going to be an expensive 1500 hour maintenance item.


----------



## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

UnionPacific said:


> Just looked at the manual.
> LOL
> It requires ultra low sulfur diesel. <15PPM.
> Good luck with that.
> ...


Re ULSD, that's what's sold at the docks here in the US. I'd turn it around and ask whether it's a problem to have too little sulfur for the older engines under consideration...


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

IStream said:


> Re ULSD, that's what's sold at the docks here in the US. I'd turn it around and ask whether it's a problem to have too little sulfur for the older engines under consideration...


Not all of them, many I have seen sell LSD, not ULSD.
I hope they do not plan to take the boat to a smaller country. sometimes they have lsd, sometimes not even that low.

No, ultra low sulfur does not harm older engines. Its an old wives tail.


----------



## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Guys,

I would be very careful indeed about buying a marine diesel with an injection system dependent on a central processor, and ultra low contaminants fuel, no matter how efficient it is.
If the CPU fails, is that motor going to start? It's the "black-box" syndrome. It just sits there looking at you and needs a diagnostic plug-in to get it fixed. Diagnostic plug-ins are not generally available offshore.
In a mid-Atlantic gale, the whole show gets very wet. There is an awful lot of seawater trying to get in to that engine room, and in to the CPU and wiring, and it does get in there.
Buy a motor with mechanical injection, overhead valve, and starting not dependent on glow plugs.
Take the hit on noise, and fuel economy, and bring a spare starter motor.
Keep it simple.
.


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Rockter said:


> Guys,
> 
> I would be very careful indeed about buying a marine diesel with an injection system dependent on a central processor, and ultra low contaminants fuel, no matter how efficient it is.
> If the CPU fails, is that motor going to start? It's the "black-box" syndrome. It just sits there looking at you and needs a diagnostic plug-in to get it fixed. Diagnostic plug-ins are not generally available offshore.
> ...


What would concern me more then the CPU, is the connectors. A little corrosion and it could throw your timing way off. The CPU is typically weather sealed, thou seals can fail.

An IDI is by no means bulletproof, but most of the unresolvable issues will not have anything to do with the fuel injection system.


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Rockter said:


> Guys,
> 
> I would be very careful indeed about buying a marine diesel with an injection system dependent on a central processor, and ultra low contaminants fuel, no matter how efficient it is.
> If the CPU fails, is that motor going to start? It's the "black-box" syndrome. It just sits there looking at you and needs a diagnostic plug-in to get it fixed. Diagnostic plug-ins are not generally available offshore.
> ...


This post really nails it IMHO. 
Thanks rocket! Fuel economy is nice but i have a 210 gal tank. I dont NEED it. Quiet is nice but i have double layer lead and foam soundproof bulkheads in the engine room. Again i don't need it. Reliability i do need!

Also Union Pacific may or may not be spreading unnecessary fear about common rail engines but he makes some strong points about the catastrophic failure modes and the pickyness of the injectors and the systems.

A blown injector on a Ford won't kill the engine but should be replaced in the next 500 hours.... yanmar injectors are expensive to service. Ford's manual recommends never servicing the injectors unless they really need it.

Last night i read my Ford manual convert to cover. I'm amazed at the number of things they included in the name of reliability. Some of it is really simple like having 2 alternator and water pump belts instead of one. Blow a belt? Meh. Fix it when you can. Any other engine blows a belt and it overheats within minutes.

Medsailor


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Then I guess the next question for you is how much HP do you really need?
What does your boat weight?


----------



## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

UnionPacific said:


> Then I guess the next question for you is how much HP do you really need?
> What does your boat weight?


That was dealt with earlier in this thread. Ended up in about what Med already have (90 hp). Possible to downsize some.

Firstly, going on weight only gives somewhat conservative result, as modern boats have more windage than earlier, generally speaking. 
Secondly, modern standards points towards ~5 hp/ton, about double the norm 30 years ago.

/J


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

I knew he had a 90 now, but your dont need a 90 if your 20 tons.
Even recent sensible boats are lower then that.
I know of a 65' with only 120HP. 60 +/-10 should be plenty for a 40' class boat.
Any more and your going to pay more for the engine, and use a lot more fuel.
We are 20 ton, and when we repower, we are going down to 50 from 63. Typically your using about 15-20hp during cruise.


----------



## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> This post really nails it IMHO.
> Thanks rocket! Fuel economy is nice but i have a 210 gal tank. I dont NEED it. Quiet is nice but i have double layer lead and foam soundproof bulkheads in the engine room. Again i don't need it. Reliability i do need!
> 
> Also Union Pacific may or may not be spreading unnecessary fear about common rail engines but he makes some strong points about the catastrophic failure modes and the pickyness of the injectors and the systems.
> ...


Fair enough. Regarding horsepower, I've got 100 HP in a 20 ton boat but others of the same model have 75. FWIW, I think 75 would be fine. Just a data point for you...


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I did a coastal trip from Victoria to CA on a 37 foot Steel Colvin that had a 20HP diesel..the boat was probably around 10 tons/20,000 lbs, likely more as she was quite loaded.

That was CLEARLY inadequate.. punching into a Juan De Fuca westerly we were literally down to 2 knots every 4th or 5th wave, picking up water on deck from pitching and then struggling back up to some speed before starting over.... it was painful.

Obviously on the very low side of the scale (~2hp/ton) but it really illustrates why you don't want to get too conservative on this decision.


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Boat weighs 31k dry. Add a dieesel genset and 450gal of tankage plus stuff and I'm likely 36k or 18T. 

Now an engine with 36 hp max output doesn't sound like a good idea. FWIW I always assumed that the 2hp/t rule was what was required to be putting out in order to move that fast. I looked at the 36hp rule of thumb, added a couple of hp for the alternator and tried to find an engine with a hp output curve that would put out 38hp at 80% of max rpm. 

I'm likely doing this all wrong. Bop p suggestef that a good honest 60hp would suffice but 75 would be better. That's what i came up with too...


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

When I chose my 95hp isuzu I started by looking at the curves for HP,torque, and fuel consumption at rev's .Weight difference didn't matter much as boat is 22 t and kinda old fashioned . Price difference was zip between 60 hp and 95. and half that of some other makes. Since my normal boating consisted of more than geating in and out of yacht clubs Like bucking big tides and nasty headwinds in narrow long inlets I didn't want to rev the snot to of it to make headway. Swung a big Max prop at about 1900 ,got pretty good fuel economy and rarely opened her up to push a big bow wave at hull speed.Still had the power to carry on into the nasty though and never thought the compromise wrong. That Ford is a good engine too and with better plumbing is a good choice.


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

even at 3HP per ton, your still only at 60 
My 60 makes up happy all day at 6-7kts, and thru eliott cut, I was able to push thru the current of over 5-6kts


----------



## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

UnionPacific said:


> even at 3HP per ton, your still only at 60
> My 60 makes up happy all day at 6-7kts, and thru eliott cut, I was able to push thru the current of over 5-6kts


Yes, one can argue back and forth. Should it be 2 hp/ton, or 3 or 5? Or even more?
There is no truth in this, it is something you decide.

If you are happy with ... 2 hp/ton, fine. I have been doing that for many years, no problems. 
Actually, I have been doing without any engine for years as well, doable that too.

Here we are however discussing what is the rule today. And that is ~ 5 hp/ton. period.

There are many arguments around all this:
- tonnage is a very bad criterium (should be the sum of windage and weigt in some way) 
- hp is a very bad measure (should be torque)
- what is "comfort" and what is "safety"
- any rule is not linear over a wide range; larger boats are likely to need less power than given by any x hp/ton.
- and so on for ever

Now Meds boat is a bit bulky one (sorry Med), with more windage than a normal sailboat. Then Med is a lazy guy leaning towards safety (he has 2 small kids). He also wants to offer his family a lot of comfort (just saying Sauna).
Summing up, Med should have a powerful engine.

Easy, I think.

/J


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Med, how's the rebuild coming? Any surprises?


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Capt Len said:


> Med, how's the rebuild coming? Any surprises?


No rebuild yet. The surveyor is still trying to figure out what happened. After that he will then tell my insurance what he believe caused the failure, and they'll look at my policy and decide if they will pay me anything and if so, how much.

So, until I know how much they're paying me, if anything, I am not making any decisions. Though I have to admit, I'm leaning very very heavily towards a rebuild 0(instead of a new motor) no matter what they do.

MedSailor


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> No rebuild yet. The surveyor is still trying to figure out what happened. After that he will then tell my insurance what he believe caused the failure, and they'll look at my policy and decide if they will pay me anything and if so, how much.
> 
> So, until I know how much they're paying me, if anything, I am not making any decisions. Though I have to admit, I'm leaning very very heavily towards a rebuild 0(instead of a new motor) no matter what they do.
> 
> MedSailor


expect them to say no, and base your choice on that.
Did you ever get a quote from the tractor shop for a rebuild?


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Back when I taught mechanics at high school I sometimes took on projects so my students could have real experience on real engines. A two day job would run into weeks but their wages were low so no matter. (so were mine) You pays for parts and takes your chances but a little research may come up with a win /win if the insurance leaves you beached. Just a thought!!


----------



## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

IStream said:


> FWIW, I used to be in the "turbos don't belong on boats" camp but then I bought a boat with a Yanmar 4JH3-HTE, which is the 100hp turbo version of the normally aspirated 75hp Yanmar of the same generation. It uses a small, water cooled IHI turbo that's been completely reliable and drama-free for over 4000 hours (400 in my hands and 4000 in the PO's hands).
> 
> Yanmar recommends a turbo rebuild at 4000 hours, mainly to replace the brass turbo bearings which start to open up a bit and let oil seep through with age. I got a quote of $600 for a rebuild with a two year warranty. All in all, it seems like a pretty good deal for a 30% horsepower bump when you really need/want it.
> 
> BTW, I run it like the PO did: 2500 RPM most of the time (vs. 3800 RPM at wide open throttle) with periodic 30 minute runs at WOT to get the exhaust gas temperature up and keep the injectors clean. Since it's generally running under low boost, I suspect there's little to no loss of engine life.


Just a follow-up to partially retract the above post. I just completed the 4000 hour service on my Yanmar and wish to modify my stance. I'm now firmly in the "Yanmar 4JH3-HTE turbos don't belong on boats" camp. The turbo itself wasn't terrible to service, though bolt #7 of 7 took a special flat box end wrench and some unnatural contortions to get at. The real problem was that all the extra stuff Yanmar put on the engine to get the most out of the turbo was poorly (read: not) designed for service access.

The prime offenders are the four, count 'em four, heat exchangers (water, air, engine oil, and tranny oil) and associated manifolds and hoses. Not only are the exchangers themselves largely impossible to remove with the engine in place (down in my bilge) but they completely block access to the starter, the raw water pump, and parts of the turbo itself. In fact, the reason I did a Rydlyme flush of the exchangers was because it would've been impossible to remove the exchangers without pulling the engine.

I know it can be and is done better in other engines, even those from Yanmar, but this particular engine doesn't belong anywhere but in a tractor where you can get to it from all six sides.


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

When I repowered I looked at most engines. Cat and Cummins were first choice but flywheel housing too big to fit. Lugger was good but no dealers around. Yanmar even without the turbo might be OK on an industrial sewing machine and at 20 G ,what a deal. I chose the 95 hp DB4 from Isuzu. 11 G ,no turbo big flywheel, a work engine in most trucks anywhere in the world,(trucks have a smaller flywheel and a different injector pump adjustment) Only thing to add is the kit(available) to turn the oil filter over, For 60 hp and under I definitely would choose a Kubota. Installing a new marine engine is so satisfying. So used to finding something at the wreckers.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Excellent resource for the Kubota, Beta marine diesel. Answers a ton of questions here:

Beta Marine US Ltd. Distributors for Kubota based marine


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

aeventyr60 said:


> Excellent resource for the Kubota, Beta marine diesel. Answers a ton of questions here:
> 
> Beta Marine US Ltd. Distributors for Kubota based marine


They also charge $20,000 for a $5000 engine to throw on some white paint.


----------



## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

I thought betas were red.


----------



## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

Forget it, he's rolling.


----------

