# Horrible situation...



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

So, I'm sitting here feeling like crap because I asked some friends to go sailing. When they called to accept they somewhat blindsided me by asking if they could bring along a minor child (teen) that they look after on occasion. The child has lost their father and the mother is not fit, so the child is being raised by the grandmother. The father was a friend of the fellow I invited, and he and his wife are trying to help expand the childs horizons and give them a chance to be more than they might be otherwise. I realize the good they are doing for this child and applaud their involvement. 

Still after thinking the situation fully through, I felt it would not be a good idea to have this child as a guest on my boat and reversed my position. I don't know the childs family at all and have only once met the child. Our boat is about 4 hours driving from the childs home. Since no parent or legal guardian would be along, I would bear legal responsiblity for the child as soon as they stepped aboard. If the child was to get seriously hurt, there would be no one there that could approve medical treatment and there are any number of ways a child could get hurt on a sailboat. I just wasn't comfortable with that when I had time to think through the whole situation.

The worst part is, my friend had already told the child and they were very excited, so now the child will have another disappointment, which makes me feel terrible.

I know there are some that think I'm a toad for reversing myself and disappointing this child, but I hope there are some that understand my reasoning. Sorry, for the buzz kill, but I needed to vent a bit.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Wow, Mid. Tough call. But it seems to me that you did the right thing. Maybe you could get one of the family members to sign a release and set up a new date?


----------



## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

For crying out loud... Looks like your friend has assumed temporary custody of the child.... Just take take him/her/it sailing. If you're lucky, nobody will call the cops and have you arrested.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I'm not sure what the issue is here, except that your friends trespassed on your hospitality, either out of ignorance of your legal obligations as skipper, or because they wanted to take advantage of your offer to kill some quality time...

Ask these friends of yours to produce some sort of document that they are guardians of the teen and that they are prepared to absolve you if this teen drowns.

I have no idea if this is only a big deal in litigation-happy America, but what happens to your friends if they are pulled over by the cops with this unrelated kid in the back? Aren't they in the same legal limbo as you?

Also, you don't say whether this is a daysail, a week-long trip, are your friends sailors, can the kid swim, are you sailing inland, coastal or passage. etc.

Many of those factors would influence my "coolness" with their proposal, which I still find a little rude, just as I would find 9 out of 10 teenaged strangers, even from untroubled backgrounds.

To my mind, the truly horrible situation would be to be offshore when some little psycho decides to hit the crack pipe or practise his pyromania skills. Because then you'd have to explain how he "fell" off your boat.


----------



## padean (Jul 5, 2001)

I can empathize on a very difficult decision. You made the right choice. Not to say the alternative was a bad choice, but in a situation like this you have to go with your instinct. 

I suspect I would have made the same choice you did. We have taken "kids" out on our boat from similar social situations, but always had a parent's permission and I have to say I was a little nervous at such times. It is unfortunate that the child and your friends had to be disappointed, but as skipper you will always be faced with making decisions that are not popular. God call.


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

midlifesailor said:


> The child has lost their father and the mother is not fit, so the child is being raised by the grandmother. The father was a friend of the fellow I invited, and he and his wife are trying to help expand the childs horizons and give them a chance to be more than they might be otherwise. I realize the good they are doing for this child and applaud their involvement.


So do I.

But I wouldn't let the kid on my boat either.

Legal parents or guardians only must be present.


----------



## tager (Nov 21, 2008)

You are a coward. I am sure that the kid would have had fun, and you squashed the opportunity because you are afraid of some ghost of litigation. 

Grow a pair!


----------



## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

mid...
I think you did the right thing!!!
She's your boat to invite (or not) whomever you please!!!
Paul


----------



## fendertweed (Apr 4, 2003)

you did the right thing, regrettably.

tager, why don't you send him your address if you're so eager to take on this risk (assuming there's room for your "pair" and the kid in your boat)?


----------



## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

i used to go camping alot, i brought friends kids ( teenagers ) i used to get a letter from the parent i had had the kids legally. as well as i could make any legal or medical decisions until the parents were contacted.

would this make you feel better?

i also understand you view of them taking advantage of your hospitality.


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

tager said:


> You are a coward. I am sure that the kid would have had fun, and you squashed the opportunity because you are afraid of some ghost of litigation.
> 
> Grow a pair!


There is that, AND having someone taking advantage of the invite.

I prefer not to be taken advantage of AND I like our home!!


----------



## jfdubu (Jul 18, 2002)

Mid,

You did leave out an important point on the lenght of the sail. I think that for anything more than a day sail around the sound you made the right call. But for a day sail where you would have reasonable control of the variables and risks. ie time on the water, undersail, weather exposure etc you may have jumped the gun.

I also think that if it was anything more than a day sail your friends are out of line. Did they check on bunkspace, provisions?

And I pretty sure a waiver from a guardien does not absolve any responsibilies as a captain. If legal litigation is the biggest fear, any guest can get hurt and any guest could sue.


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Yes, perhaps I am a coward.

I have some modest means and I chose to protect them over providing a perhaps life changing experience for a kid. I hate that this is the world we live in, but it is in fact the world we live in, and I have to think of my family first. We do live in a litigious society and I, sadly, just can't rationalize putting everything I've ever worked for at risk, even to help a deserving child.

Let me make the record clear on that count also, the child has no behavioral problems, their father passed at a very young age due to natural causes and the mother just isn't able to care for the child.

FWIW, the trip would have involved two nights on the boat.

edited to add: If we were just talking about a day sail, we wouldn't be having this conversation.


----------



## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

midlifesailor said:


> FWIW, the trip would have involved two nights on the boat.


That changes things... I'd tell the kid and your friends to get lost because you're going sailing for two blessed days and nights... all by your freaking self!


----------



## jfdubu (Jul 18, 2002)

You made the right call.


----------



## rdstanley (Sep 23, 2006)

Don't blame you at all, I'd have handled it the same way


----------



## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

*If I said yes in the first place*, I would not have broken my word to my friend and I have tried very hard all my life never to break my word or promise to a child.


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I have had enough daysails killed by taking out new people who got sea sick or scared or or 

I would never introduce a new person to sailing by starting with a two day trip ?


----------



## MorganPaul (Sep 16, 2008)

sailhog said:


> That changes things... I'd tell the kid and your friends to get lost because you're going sailing for two blessed days and nights... all by your freaking self!


I agree with hog.

If it was a day sail I would have said "grow a pair".

You did the right thing.


----------



## modul8 (Oct 26, 2008)

Relaaaaaax!!
I'd take the kid sailling. I'd ask the mom's permission first for sure. 
As a parent i' be pretty pissed if someone was going to take my kid for 2 days on a sailboat without my knowledge. Of course I'm not everybody. 
It's unfortunate that you had to let your friends & the kid down this time, but definitely be open to it in the future. Like you said, you accept responsibility for the kid as soon as he steps aboard, but the same is true for all your guests. If you're nervous, make him wear a pfd. If still nervous, make him wear a pfd and an epirb. If still nervous, chain him to the deck. If still nervous, sell your sailboat-- sailing is too dangerous for us humans.


----------



## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

I think I would make a counter offer for the kid to sail. I understand your point, and I have no problem with your decision. I have also been that kid. Luckily for me a step-father came into my life that opened my eyes. One person can change another's life in many different ways. Get to know the kid a bit, and then offer him a day sail if you think it will work.

When I was young my wife, and I made friends with a new to us neighbor lady. She had 2 boys a wee bit younger than my own son. Their father lived in town, but if he had been dead there would've been no difference. I took these boys with me everywhere, and even after I divorced they stayed in our life, my son & I. They grew up to fine citizens. One is a Ranger, and also an instructor to become a Ranger. The other is a fire fighter outside of Dallas. This young man named his son after me...no the kids name is not i2f.

In this world you can't feel bad trying to protect your own. This is just my take, because I was once that kid. It won't hurt to give it a chance. What young boy hasn't thought about pirates, sailing, etc. etc. I don't think you need bigger balls to do it. Just some time to think it over, and make it comfortable for you too. BEST WISHES in whatever you decide. Litigation doesn't make life choices as easy as it use to be. Unfortunately the more we own the more cautious we need to be. It can all be taken away very easily, and quickly.....i2f

P.S. tager,

I can see you are a student, and most likely your net worth is not massive. I think you will find when you get older. That working your ass off for 20+ years, or more. In this society it can be taken away for nothing. You're a college guy. Use that noodle before your fingertips print out your thoughts. Please do show us your bright side more often than your DUH side.......i2f


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

modul8 said:


> Relaaaaaax!!
> I'd take the kid sailling. I'd ask the mom's permission first for sure.
> As a parent i' be pretty pissed if someone was going to take my kid for 2 days on a sailboat without my knowledge. Of course I'm not everybody.
> It's unfortunate that you had to let your friends & the kid down this time, but definitely be open to it in the future. Like you said, you accept responsibility for the kid as soon as he steps aboard, but the same is true for all your guests. If you're nervous, make him wear a pfd. If still nervous, make him wear a pfd and an epirb. If still nervous, chain him to the deck. If still nervous, sell your sailboat-- sailing is too dangerous for us humans.


I think every boat owner realizes they open themselves to litigation anytime they have guests aboard, that is among the reasons we carefully consider who we invite aboard. I suspect all of us are aquainted with one or more people we'd never have on board based on their behavior.

I'm not the outgoing type and I'm just not comfortable bringing people I don't know, especially a child, on my boat. As I said its a 4 hour drive one way to the boat, so we go down Friday nights and come back Sunday. There are a thousand ways a weekend could become a complete train wreck even barring serious accidents.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

tager said:


> You are a coward. I am sure that the kid would have had fun, and you squashed the opportunity because you are afraid of some ghost of litigation.
> 
> Grow a pair!


I can think of about a thousand different ways that could have been said.

Midlife,

I would have taken him... but I am very comfortable with kids on boats (obviously). I also find many people that are not comfortable with it. Bottom line is that you have to make the decision for what is right for you.

- CD


----------



## ScuzzMonkey (Jun 26, 2006)

Interestingly, I just had to make a similar decision. I said yes.

The different factors were, the kid's sister will be along, and in my case it _is_ just a daysail. But the determining factor for me was, life is just too short to worry about the potential legal ramifications of every little thing. Sure, you could get sued; you can get sued by any passenger, as others have pointed out. The odds are pretty low, unless you happen to know otherwise (ie, the guardians are known to be litigious), and I'm not sure that keeping one person out of many possible people who may visit you on your boat really changes those odds much. I think they have more to do with situations that may arise while you are out and how you handle them than anything else.

It can be difficult to objectively weigh risk in all shapes and sizes, but when the classic formula of odds X consequences has "being wiped out completely financially" as the consequence it is small comfort that the odds are low. Still, that consequence is there everyday; someone trips over your dockline, whatever, it can always happen. My personal view is that the odds have to become a lot higher than the background noise of chance before I will not do something that I might otherwise like to do.

If it would have been a multi-day sail I would probably still have said yes, but would have made the same arrangements anyone should make for medical care and decisions when a kid is with you without their folks along for that period of time.

Having said all that, I don't think there is a right call or a wrong call in these situations; you made _your_ call, and so what if it was different from someone else's? Everyone has their own preferences and comfort level. If you did what you thought was best then it was the right thing.


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

ScuzzMonkey said:


> Interestingly, I just had to make a similar decision. I said yes.
> 
> The different factors were, the kid's sister will be along, and in my case it _is_ just a daysail. But the determining factor for me was, life is just too short to worry about the potential legal ramifications of every little thing. Sure, you could get sued; you can get sued by any passenger, as others have pointed out. The odds are pretty low, unless you happen to know otherwise (ie, the guardians are known to be litigious), and I'm not sure that keeping one person out of many possible people who may visit you on your boat really changes those odds much. I think they have more to do with situations that may arise while you are out and how you handle them than anything else.
> 
> ...


The problem as I see it, is that the mitigations being suggested all presuppose I have some relationship with this childs family which I do not.


----------



## tager (Nov 21, 2008)

fendertweed said:


> you did the right thing, regrettably.
> 
> tager, why don't you send him your address if you're so eager to take on this risk (assuming there's room for your "pair" and the kid in your boat)?


Unfortunately Washington and Virginia are not close together. I take strangers out on my boat all the time, as long as they are a friend of a friend.

Don't support our litigious society by falling prey to it before anything even goes wrong. That's simply cowardly!


----------



## ScuzzMonkey (Jun 26, 2006)

midlifesailor said:


> The problem as I see it, is that the mitigations being suggested all presuppose I have some relationship with this childs family which I do not.


Not at all; that goes back to your friend, who does have the relationship with them. He made the request, you counter with the stipulations (EDIT: which, on our boat at least, is no different than happens when _anyone_ comes out for the first time... easily seasick? medical conditions we should know about, meds you should have along? people to call in case of emergency? etc, etc). Whether or not you trust him to that level is another question, of course.


----------



## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

midlifesailor said:


> I think every boat owner realizes they open themselves to litigation anytime they have guests aboard, that is among the reasons we carefully consider who we invite aboard.


i solved some of this delema by forming an LLC to own the boat, yes it causes other problems but the security of not losing everything is worth a little money for ins, and other head aches


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

midlifesailor said:


> So, I'm sitting here feeling like crap because I asked some friends to go sailing. When they called to accept they somewhat blindsided me by asking if they could bring along a minor child (teen) that they look after on occasion. The child has lost their father and the mother is not fit, so the child is being raised by the grandmother. The father was a friend of the fellow I invited, and he and his wife are trying to help expand the childs horizons and give them a chance to be more than they might be otherwise. I realize the good they are doing for this child and applaud their involvement.
> 
> Still after thinking the situation fully through, I felt it would not be a good idea to have this child as a guest on my boat and reversed my position. I don't know the childs family at all and have only once met the child. Our boat is about 4 hours driving from the childs home. Since no parent or legal guardian would be along, I would bear legal responsiblity for the child as soon as they stepped aboard. If the child was to get seriously hurt, there would be no one there that could approve medical treatment and there are any number of ways a child could get hurt on a sailboat. I just wasn't comfortable with that when I had time to think through the whole situation.
> 
> ...


I'm a lawyer and I'm not sure I would have even thought of that. I generally say the more the merrier. I would be much more concerned if you had infromation that the kid couldn't sit still, follow instructions or swim. Otherwise, I wouldn't deprive the kid of the experience. Although I understand your reasoning.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

tager said:


> You are a coward. I am sure that the kid would have had fun, and you squashed the opportunity because you are afraid of some ghost of litigation.
> 
> Grow a pair!


This is an obnoxious assessment, IMHO.


----------



## modul8 (Oct 26, 2008)

I think you made the right decision for you.
Everyone has their own comfort level for risk. Being from Canada, I don't have to worry about losing my house for fear of hospital bills. I hadn't realised how much that risk holds you guys back from spreading a little cheer. 
kinda funny how you can make a link between a hot-button political issue and a fun weekend on the lake. come to think of it, there are far fewer ridiculous civil suits here too.. Go Canada!!!


----------



## cnc33voodoo (May 15, 2008)

Other peoples kids usually annoy the hell out of me and scare me from having my own.
A boat is like your woman, not meant to be shared.
If they want to give the kid the sailing experience, thats what rentals are for.
I wouldnt last one night, damn, not one hour.
The idea of other peoples kids screaming, trampling my decks, touching everything and the surprises I would find after they left are enough of a reason.
I would have said hell no right off the bat which is what you should have done in the first place.Then you wouldnt have to justify anything nor feel bad for breaking your word nor look like a chizler to your freinds.
it was smart to c.y.a., your weekend would have sucked in a major way.


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I have been taking kids on races a LONG time and STILL DO as adults are MORE likely to be a PITA but still would NOT take and unkown kid on a multi day trip

We are dealing with a planing a distance race crew right now and there are going to be some hurt feelings as people who are fine on a day race will flame out over 3 day race


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

At first, my feelings were "no way!!"

On a TWO DAY trip I've ammended my feelings to "no friggin' way!!"


----------



## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

I first read your post and thought WTF is wrong with this midlifesailor. Then I read it again, and thought back to the experiences I've had in the past decade or so. My parents owned a small business and slip/fall cases were a constant worry. Insurance for *EVERYTHING* up the wazoo. Reinsurance in some cases. Its just amazing how litigious our society has become.

The other day on the way home from work I saw a full size billboard on the side of I-95. "Who can I sue" followed by burst bubbles "bankruptcy" "landlord disputes" "foreclosure"...etc
There is actually a website: Whocanisue.com: Find Attorneys - Find Lawyers: Car Accidents - Foreclosure - Wrongful Termination - Divorce - DUI - Bankruptcy

If this doesn't speak volumes about the world we're in, I dont know what would. Needless to say, I now think I would have made the same decision and left the child at home. Its too bad, societys worse off for it.

All the more reasons I'm looking forward to permanently casting off those docklines and going down island to seek out a different way of life.

EDIT:

THANK YOU SAILNET...the auto-url parser proved how depraved this situation has actually become

*ugh*


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

We are also dealing with having to get a multi-million dollar umbrella policy becasue of a fear of a boating problem taking are lifes work away


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

tager said:


> Unfortunately Washington and Virginia are not close together. I take strangers out on my boat all the time, as long as they are a friend of a friend.
> 
> Don't support our litigious society by falling prey to it before anything even goes wrong. That's simply cowardly!


Look, we're not just talking about taking an adult "friend of a friend" here. I've done that in the past (with this same couple the last time I invited them down) and will no doubt do it again, so long as the "friend" vouches for them. For the most part, my friends are well enough "vetted" that I trust their judgement and I trust that adults can evaluate their own tolerence for risk.

However, in this situation we're not talking about an adult, we're talking about a 13 y.o. female child, whose family I've never met. The child can't evaluate the risk and I have no abilty to get a "read" on the family or to ask them to sign a waivier as has been suggested. I also know from my aviation background that such waivers are generally not worth the paper they are written on if you find yourself in court. It just seems that we live in a world where if an adult guest gets hurt, you MAY get sued, but if a child gets hurt you can just about bet that WILL get sued. Especially, if its on a boat. Lets not forget the sterotype that anyone that owns a "yacht" is filthy rich.

Just so folks know the rest of the story, I've talked to my friend and helped him locate a place to rent a daysailor and they are taking her for a sail on small boat, so she will be sailing this weekend, just not on my boat.

Right or wrong, Cowardly or just wisely not putting my life savings at risk, I did what I thought best and will be able to sleep with the decsion and hope maybe my situation will help inform others before they face a similar dilemma.


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

...and it isn't ALL about getting sued.

What if the kid is just a PITA??

Or wets the bed??

I wouldn't want to deal with that for TWO HOURS!!


----------



## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

midlifesailor said:


> Yes, perhaps I am a coward.


ABSOLUTLEY NOT!!!
NO WAY!!!
Yes, I was shouting.
Paul


----------



## MMR (Oct 5, 2007)

*Right Call*

I think you made the right call, hard as it was. And hopefully, there'll be a next time, fully planned for and thought through (by foster couple), so you CAN say YES...


----------



## fendertweed (Apr 4, 2003)

tager said:


> Unfortunately Washington and Virginia are not close together. I take strangers out on my boat all the time, as long as they are a friend of a friend.
> 
> Don't support our litigious society by falling prey to it before anything even goes wrong. That's simply cowardly!


you're pretty free with your assumptions about a lot of things here, including my inclinations & fears (if any) about litigation, as well as your insults of people you don't even know, etc. It's easy to toss out advice when it's others' butts on the line and easy to call people cowards and tell them to "grow a pair." But it's also kind of juvenile.

... you know what happens when you assume ... don't you? [don't answer that, rhetorical question].


----------



## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

midlifesailor said:


> *SNIP*However, in this situation we're not talking about an adult, we're talking about a 13 y.o. female child


Now more than ever, you made the right decision. I had no idea it was a child of the opposite gender. As a man, I will not EVER be near a female child of someone elses without at least 1-2 other people. Even if there is one other person, I'm uncomfortable and look to exit the situation. The laws of this country are just messed up against men in these accusatory situations.

I've seen someone's life practically ruined by what turned out being false and baseless accusations. His neighbors turned on him when he was accused, and it was never the same after he was vindicated. Ended up moving from the neighborhood and never shook the stigma, even after his children were grown.


----------



## craigimass (Feb 23, 2009)

Umbrella insurance policies are fairly cheap.
I have two million (on top of everything else) for about $550 a year. 

Many people of means have LOTS of potential exposure, but the chances are too small to worry about.....or predict. That is what insurance is for.

As to "right" or "wrong", this type of decision cannot be looked at that way. If you didn't feel right about it for various reasons - you should do what makes you comfortable


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Mid...you had the right to make any decision you wanted to for any reason you wanted to and it was your friends who impinged on your hospitality. 
I think the only mistake you made was saying yes in the first place...and that was probably because you were so flustered by their presumptuousness. 

You might have said something like..."Let me think that over and get back to you" to give yourself time to consider the request and how you felt about it. 

Whether you denied the request over legal worries, or just because you intended the weekend to be an "adult swim" ...matters not. Your boat...your invitation and your call!!


----------



## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

midlifesailor said:


> Right or wrong, Cowardly or just wisely not putting my life savings at risk, I did what I thought best and will be able to sleep with the decsion and hope maybe my situation will help inform others before they face a similar dilemma.


mid...

Good for you!!!

You've just summed the whole thing up. You have no reason to feel any remorse for your decision, even if it were a male child on a day sail.

Again, your boat, your choice.

Don't look back on this one!!!

Paul


----------



## motovationcycles (Dec 2, 2008)

*Guest*

I would say the hell with the legalities. You have a chance of changing a childs life. It looks as though this child has had a tough life so far. You may have had the chance to wake them up and expose them to something besides a life of dissapointments. I am in Southern Maryland and my wife and I would love to take them out. Contact me if they would still like to go.


----------



## painkiller (Dec 20, 2006)

Hey, Mid! I think the only mistake you made was posting about it here. 

I would've done the same thing in your shoes. I don't mind having someone else's kid aboard IF I know the kid, IF I know the parents, and IF there's nothing weird going on in the household (weird being anything, like a divorced household with a custody dispute, a father with a lazy eye, if the kid is a 10 year old girl that wears pants with adjectives written across the butt, ANYTHING).

Regardless, it's your boat, make whatever decision for whatever reason. They can pound sand.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Good decision for all the reasons stated above. The kid needs a daysail or two first. There's time to move up to a 2-day trip if she likes it.


----------



## AFNT (Dec 11, 2008)

Has anyone ever beem inspired by legaleze. It is our duty as adults to raise the villages children. To show children the wonders of the world, the happiness of moments and the joys of doing. How sad it is when we all have lawyers in our pockets. Children learn from what they see us do.....How sad it is...how sad it is....How pathetic we are!


----------



## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

As captain, you are responsible for everyone and everything on your boat - child, adult, dog, whatever. You knowing them or not makes no difference. If you don't feel qualified to have people aboard your boat, don't invite them. Don't invite me either.


----------



## MMR (Oct 5, 2007)

paulk said:


> As captain, you are responsible for everyone and everything on your boat - child, adult, dog, whatever. You knowing them or not makes no difference. If you don't feel qualified to have people aboard your boat, don't invite them. Don't invite me either.


Oh bull.

As Captain, he has the responsibility and the RIGHT to choose who he has on his boat and under what circumstances. He is not obligated to take on uninvited guests providing unknown risks. That he chose NOT to take on an unknown risk PROVES HIS QUALIFICATION to be captain.


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Cam, You are right that I created the situation by not saying "no" outright and you are right that I was flustered by the proposal and should have "taken a moment", before responding. I'd hoped by contacting my friend as soon as possible that we could have worked it out and the child would never have even known.

Pain, Posting here is a public catharsis. The folks that supported my position shared many of my same thoughts as did those that would have decided otherwise. There are definitely two sides of the coin, and I wish I were more of a black and white kind of guy at times like this.

Cycles, the child has definitely had more than a fair share of hard knocks which is why I wish I was prepared to take her. Taking others sailing with us is one of the major reasons we made the financial commitment to move up to a larger boat, and I too would take this child or any other in similar circumstances out for a daysail without a second thought. I just feel two nights in close quarters with a minor child you don't know at all and without their parent(s) present is too much to ask. I would not be able to relax for a minute under those circumstances and thats not what I want to deal with on my weekend.

Paulk, I think its a pretty long strech to question my competence to have guests aboard based on an unwillingness to spend my whole weekend with a child I don't know, whatever the reason and I did not invite this child myself and then renig. I invited my friends who suprised me by asking to bring her along, which is something that I NEVER would have done or even considered if the shoe was on the other foot and is therefore something that I was completely unprepared to deal with when it surfaced. I don't see what in the whole discussion would call my qualifications into question, but I'll quite happily honor your request.

AFNT, Legal ramifications are only a small the part of the equation.


----------



## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

One vote for Tager! I don't care what world you all live in, Midlife gave his word then took it back and most of you say good call. Midlife can change his weekend plans to accommodate this girl, you could spend the weekend teaching her how to sail and stay at your slip. Boo Hoo ! you feel bad well do something about it, it's just one weekend. As for people having LLC. (LMAO) your loco. One more thing "I rather be a poor man walking around with nothing then a richman scared of losing all he has."


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

lapworth said:


> One vote for Tager! I don't care what world you all live in, Midlife gave his word then took it back and most of you say good call. Midlife can change his weekend plans to accommodate this girl, you could spend the weekend teaching her how to sail and stay at your slip. Boo Hoo ! you feel bad well do something about it, it's just one weekend. As for people having LLC. (LMAO) your loco. One more thing "I rather be a poor man walking around with nothing then a richman scared of losing all he has."


I was rasied to keep my word, but I was also raised not to impose or take advantage of an invitation. So what if we stay at the slip, I'd still be responsible for the child, the still would be no legal guardian present and I'd still have to share tight quarters with a teen age girl I don't know at all.

I asked some friends to go sailing and they should have said yes or no. Since they had plans with this child already, the answer should have been No.


----------



## nk235 (Apr 8, 2007)

If it was me in that situation I wouldn't have wanted the kid on my boat either for an overnight trip BUT not for legal reasons what so ever. More so for the fact that they may get seasick, hate sailing, be annoying, or any other reason one can imagine for having someone you have never met before on an OVERNIGHT trip. For a daysail I would have loved to show someone new to sailing a great day on the water and I have many times. I agree with many that there is so much BS litigation out there but at the same time you can't be afraid to live your life. In my opinion there are far many more things out there to be afraid about getting sued over that you do in everyday life than taking your friends and a 13 year old out for a sail. If you are that afraid of being sued than how do you get in your car and drive to work or your boat for that reason? Again I can understand saying NO to your friends for this overnight trip as I would have done the same but it just drives me nuts when people who have no legal experience start citing legalities as exuses. If it really were that way than nobody would ever try anything else new and we would live the most boring lives possible.


----------



## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

So you never had anyone ask if they can bring a friend ? 
I thought your friends where coming also ?
You can't sleep in seperate quarters?
Why did you say yes?
Why can't you be responsible?


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

lapworth said:


> A.So you never had anyone ask if they can bring a friend ?
> B. I thought your friends where coming also ?
> C. You can't sleep in seperate quarters?
> D. Why did you say yes?
> E. Why can't you be responsible?


A. Yeah sure, just not someone elses child.
B. They would have come how does that change anything? They have no legal rights with regard to the child and I've seen them have problems disciplining their puppy.
C. Have you ever BEEN on a sailboat?
D. Because I was suprised and befuddled by the request and made a bad snap judgement.
E. I am being responsible by not following up a spur of the moment bad decsion with a bad decsion lasting 48+ hours.


----------



## movinaway (Jun 10, 2009)

Every time the kids in my area want to go out with me I call the parents first and then make the trip short and sweet. This is in my 18 motor.


----------



## wtosterhout (May 31, 2009)

You made a good call.
I would call them and explaine the situation. Good points and bad. Explaine the snap decision and ask about a day sail. If you need to clear your obviously ailing conscience.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think the people who told the teenager they were taking him sailing acted a little irresponsibly. I can understand your reluctance to take a stranger along for a three day sail. I certainly don't understand your fear of litigation though. Guess I live in a different country and things are a little more sane here.

I suggest you call the teen yourself, explain the truth to him - that you would like the opportunity to get to know him a bit before spending days with him on a small boat and invite him out for a day sail.

It's the adults that screwed up here (as usual). The kid should at least get a day on the water.


----------



## wtosterhout (May 31, 2009)

It may have been the best or worst time of your/her life.
Dont beat yourself up over it.
I ran a group home for troubled children for two years. The major player here is that you didnt know this girl. Not your fault, it just is. I still say "good call"


----------



## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

Yes I sail a boat and do over night stays we don't all sleep in the Bow and its a 24' . If you keep your word then I don't understand why you speek so quickly. I don't care if you own a boat and use big words like captian and I have the right. Big deal I could run around telling people they come on my boat and then tell them no the next day ( because I'am a captian ). If you get beffudled by friends asking to bring a friend I would hate to see what you are like on the water. Do you order to Come about and then half way through decide not too. It's your boat and your the captian that doesn't make you a good captian.


----------



## wtosterhout (May 31, 2009)

Lapworth- The point is not whether he is a good captian or not. The point is that they flanked him with an unknown variable. Which happens to be a child. Which in my opinion is where the pulling on the heart strings have come into play!


----------



## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

I went back and read all the posts and mine echos most of the others, so I edited this one


You did do the right thing and it doesn't mean you can't take them sailing later on under your terms and a medical release from grandma


----------



## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Midlife, most of your detractors have forgotten whose boat it is we're talking about here, and to whom the captain and owner of that boat is obliged -- that is, to nobody but himself. You are no more obliged to show this child the wonders of the world, than you are to send a tenth of your earnings to the church or to some starving children in Africa.

Personally, I would have taken the kid along (even though in the past, taking people along has often made the trip significantly crappier for me). But I would never do so out of guilt or a feeling of obligation.

Also I'm not clear on the whole reversing-the-position thing. Did you originally okay taking the kid out? If so, just be honest with your friend: "Look, I reconsidered it and I don't think it's worth the risk. Apply to become his legal guardian and we'll talk."


----------



## mccary (Feb 24, 2002)

a sailboat is 99.9% a safe place. But it can be dangerious. You have the responsibility to be able to control your guests and to be responsible for their safe return. I have a large family and have taken all my family members and their kids sailing. But I have drawn the line at my brother's in-laws's kids. They are seldom under the control of their parents on land and I don't want the added responsibility of them on a boat. So, I agree with your decision to restrict the child from sailing with you. You MUST be in control of all your guests at all times. Maybe suggest when the child is older, can swim, etc...


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

lapworth said:


> Yes I sail a boat and do over night stays we don't all sleep in the Bow and its a 24' . If you keep your word then I don't understand why you speek so quickly. I don't care if you own a boat and use big words like captian and I have the right. Big deal I could run around telling people they come on my boat and then tell them no the next day ( because I'am a captian ). If you get beffudled by friends asking to bring a friend I would hate to see what you are like on the water. Do you order to Come about and then half way through decide not too. It's your boat and your the captian that doesn't make you a good captian.


If you read the thread you'd know that I never used the words right or Captain.

Also, trying to be polite when presented with a situation that is so presumtious and rude to you that you can't fathom it, bears little on my capabilty or qualifications.

Why don't you do this. Go find an at risk youth you don't know, and have them spend a long weekend with you. Then let me know how it works out. Otherwise you can STFU at this point.


----------



## bloodhunter (May 5, 2009)

*You made the right call*

Midlife,
You must have struck a nerve -- so many replies in such a short time.
For what it's worth, I would never take anyone, male, female, child or adult, who had no sailing experience on an overnight without having them out daysailing first. I know from experience that there are people who love the idea of sailing and sailboats but are terrified by the reality. A number of times we've had to put back because a newbie was realy upset when the boat healed 10-15 degrees.
I also agree that why-ever ( is that a word?) you agreed at first, if you were uncomfortable with the situation you were right to call it off. Your boat, your call. 
I would explain it to your friends but let them explain it to the girl.


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

bloodhunter said:


> Midlife,
> You must have struck a nerve -- so many replies in such a short time.
> For what it's worth, I would never take anyone, male, female, child or adult, who had no sailing experience on an overnight without having them out daysailing first. I know from experience that there are people who love the idea of sailing and sailboats but are terrified by the reality. A number of times we've had to put back because a newbie was realy upset when the boat healed 10-15 degrees.
> I also agree that why-ever ( is that a word?) you agreed at first, if you were uncomfortable with the situation you were right to call it off. Your boat, your call.
> I would explain it to your friends but let them explain it to the girl.


Clearly this one hits peoples hot buttons and there have been a couple of replys that hit mine.

I definitely handled this very badly, and its not a shining moment for me, but I hope maybe there is a lesson in there somewhere. For me, I'll be hair triggered to say no immediately, to any future such requests. People seem to miss the point that a trip down to our boat is several hours of driving and we ALWAYS spend 2 nights when we go. I seriously doubt that those throwing rocks at me have EVER taken a stranger on their boat for a two night trip, regardless of the possiblity of being at the dock (which would have required dropping out of the planned Yacht Club activity we invited these people to join). If not being willing to tolerate a stranger for whats supposed to be a relaxing weekend makes me a lesser human being, I'll take that criticisim. The world is full of better human beings than I. However, its BS to castigate someones sailing ablity based on an inept handling of a social situation, so to those that took that tack, Pound Sand.

I now have a much better understanding of where this particular friends head is at and will be more cognizant in the future. I've actually known this guy less than a year but he's the younger brother of a good friend of mine so there was probably some presumtion on both of our parts. Suffice it to say the two are very different. At any rate, I've worked it out with him and its bygones, so we'll move ahead from there.


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

At first I said "no way!!"

Found out it was a two day trip and said "no friggin' way!!"

Found out the tag-along was a young woman and now say, "anyone would have to be nuts to take that on!!"


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

AFNT said:


> Has anyone ever beem inspired by legaleze. It is our duty as adults to raise the villages children. To show children the wonders of the world, the happiness of moments and the joys of doing. How sad it is when we all have lawyers in our pockets. Children learn from what they see us do.....How sad it is...how sad it is....How pathetic we are!


Speak for yourself!!


----------



## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

AFNT,

Life use to be that way when I was growing up. Litigation stopped all that along with many other things that helped raise a responsible child. A few whiners has nearly brought this country to it's knees. The politically correct are politically insane.

It's midlifesailor's boat, and he can choose what ever he wishes. This situation makes him uncomfortable, so he refused. He also feels bad for the kid, and he can go back, and change that too. He has the responsibility to himself, his boat, and his family FIRST. After that others may, or may not be included.

Unfortunately the village idiots, lawyers, have taken away what use to be simple. Have you noticed it's lawyers that sit in the seats of power, and look at the shape this country is in. ......i2f

My apologies to any, and all lawyers that practice law, and are ethical.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I think you made the right decision for several reasons. First, you don't know the 13 y.o. child in question. Second, the trip was a three-day trip. Third, you didn't invite the child, your friends did. If you really want to invite the kid, do so first on a daysail. That way, if they're prone to seasickness or have other issues, you can deal with it more easily.

That said, I have a quite a few teens crewing for me. They are the children and friends of the children of long-time friends. It isn't an issue for me. They're responsible and I'm more than happy to have them along.


----------



## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

You made the right call.

I recently took three disadvantage kids out on my yacht as part of an organised day trip to a local island. The body that organised it provided two adult supervisors for the three kids. This would be the only way to take out kids that you are not familiar with; a responsible adult looks after them. And this is for a daytrip, no way would I contemplate an overnight trip with unknown kids

Ilenart


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Some of the replies in this thread have shocked me. Keep it civil guys. Re-read what you wrote before you press Submit. Agree with him or not, it is not what you say but how you say it.

- CD


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

AFNT said:


> It is our duty as adults to raise the villages children


"Raising them", even if you subscribe to that, does not necessarily include having utter strangers with zero boat experience (and who may not even swim, and who very likely don't know when to duck) go for a two-day boat ride.

I have non-boating nephews I wouldn't take out for that long because they would be at risk from ignorance of "the ways of the sea" and because that ignorance would lead to boredom. If you don't understand WHY something is happening, it might be meaningless to you. Are the non-guardian guardians of the child going to keep her amused, or, in addition to being host and skipper, am I supposed to give Boat Newbie 101 sailing lessons to a kid who might see herself as trapped on the Voyage of the Damned (no TV, no internet, spotty cell phone reception)?

I have four simple rules with guests: 1) If in pairs, one must be a sailor. I ain't running a frigging charter for landlubbers here. 2) Everyone does work, even of a symbolic type (buoy-spotting, dish washing). 3) _You have to want to be there_. I can understand a reluctance to step aboard what you may see as the S.S. Minnow with a stick in the middle, but once aboard, I don't want to know about it. Conquer your fears on the dock. I am quite happy to give instruction (and letting a nervous Nellie work the helm and the sails is generally a great way to let people get over apprehensions about sailing. On the other hand, I have zero stake in expanding the sport or "making a new generation of sailors" (apart from my son!). If you think you won't enjoy yourself, _stay ashore!

The most important rule? 4) My word is law underway. I will brief all guests/crew as to the location of the safety gear. I will show all crew the logbook in which is a "Sailing This Boat for Dummies" primer crafted for the meanest intelligence. I will show them the radio and explain the mysteries of Ch. 16. I will demonstrate the Lavac and explain why lights get turned off.

I will likely issue no "orders" during the voyage that do not resemble requests. I will entertain helpful suggestions, particularly from the half of the crew that are sailors.

But if I give an order related to safety of life and limb, or because I see danger that you, as a non-sailor, do not, I will be obeyed, or you will be rowed or otherwise put ashore. Immediately. Did I mention I don't drink underway? Neither will you, outside of perhaps one beer every three hours. And I am in no sense teetotal.

I recall a story I heard about the steel cutter Aquastar, which, equipped as it was as a high-latitude expedition boat, had a fairly large crow's nest on the main mast for sighting uncharted shoals and leads in Arctic ice. A guest aboard had a few pops and decided to check out the view. She was told not to, based on her state of mind, her footwear, and general seamanlike prudence. She persisted. She was told again, and persisted in scampering up the mast steps. She was told to come down. She did, headfirst, smashing her skull on the granny bars at the base. She spent time in a coma and is "not right" to this day.

Of course, she sued, and, this being Canada, she lost, being a stubborn, deaf idiot generally considered unworthy of compensation here, but the skipper was still out legal fees, plus the burden of worry and care.

So to hell with feelings here. The skipper made the right call...his call, for his boat and his situation._


----------



## ericread (Feb 23, 2009)

You chose wisely. You are the captain, and as such, you are responsible for the passengers, the boat and yourself. On a multi-day sail, a 13 year old girl with no prior sailing experience is at best going to get very bored once you are underway, and at worst, become a situation that is unmanageable. If her parents/guardians were aboard, you could make it known in very plain terms that her actions were their responsibility. Without those parents/legal guardians, her actions become your responsibility. I agree with several of the other posts, if you feel bad about the situation, offer to take the group (including the girl) in a 2-3 hour day sail. 

For a time my sister looked after a 13 year old "troubled" girl whom had previously experienced abuse of the worst kind. Although I made every effort to be kind to this young girl, I made it a point to never be alone in a room with her. It was apparent she had "learned" for her previous experiences how to manipulate, and although only 13, she was wise beyond her years in that area. 

I'm not saying this poor girl was in any way similar to the girl I knew, but the legal/moral/liability reprecussions of being in such close quarters overnight with a youngster you do not know presents such a significant risk that I would never take such a chance.

It appears to me that you did grow some big ones. Your decision was not easy, but in my opinion, it was the same decision I would make.

Eric


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

At first I did not relate to the poster's decision but the more I think about it the more times I can recall bringing a child that I didn't know on the boat for a daysail and having to cut it short due to sea-sickness (or possible boredom, described as sea-sickness). Although I'm still not sure that I agree with his decision, it certainly would be risky to go out for two days blind with a kid of that age.

But folks, calling people "cowardly" and making personal attacks degrades the debate. How about telling him you disagree and why? He had the guts to post, which was an acknowledgment that maybe he wasn't correct and was interested in input. It is just as easy to post your opinion with respect and without personal insults.


----------



## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

Sorry. 
You said yes at first and I think that stinks.
No I don't take out stranger but I don't say yes.
I will STFU now and never reply to one of your post unless to say good job.

I said good day.


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

lapworth said:


> Sorry.
> You said yes at first and I think that stinks.
> No I don't take out stranger but I don't say yes.
> I will STFU now and never reply to one of your post unless to say good job.
> ...


I'd like to apologize to Lapworth for linking my lapse of civility with his post. It was not solely directed at him but at the group that somehow equates a social faux-pas with the abiltiy to handle a boat. If you really believe that, then I again say to you, Pound Sand.

There is a lot of context missing from this discussion, but suffice it to say I had what I consider valid reasons for wanting to have these folks down to my boat for an enjoyable weekend. They have had a very hard year including a intercontinental move, caring for an ailing parent who eventually passed, unemployment and some other lesser traumas. The wife in particular has had a lot to bear and has confided as much to my wife, so I REALLY, REALLY WANTED them to join the Yacht Club activity we've signed up for, as it would have been fun for them. I momentarily let that desire overshadow my better judgement, but in the end I have to follow my better judgement. The converstation happened at 9:30 PM Sunday and by 9:30 AM Monday moring I'd contacted them to say I didn't think it would be a good idea and why. I had no idea they would have had time to mention it to the child in that timeframe. Am I upset that I somehow allowed the simple kindness of inviting someone sailing to cause me reverse myself and make me feel like a royal jackass? Yes I am, but I have no doubt I made the right choice.


----------



## painkiller (Dec 20, 2006)

lapworth said:


> I said good day.


Hah hah hah. That's always a funny parting shot.


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

One of my faves too!! 

"You get NOTHING!!"

:laugher


----------



## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

I am coming in late on this I know sorry folks.

Midlife for what it is worth I think you made the right yet tough decision in a real sticky situation. I also do think really what I or anyone else thinks here is irrelevant, it is your boat if your don't feel comfortable with any situation then thats that. 

I do really love taking people sailing. It is one of our greatest pleasures, to introduce someone new to what is for us is one of the greatest blessings in our life. We get a real buzz out of it actually... 

Would I feel comfortable taking an unknown 13 year old girl on a 3 day cruise?? Probably Not. 

I am also sorry that by sharing openly and genuinely your dilemma with us here you also exposed yourself to some fairly average responses.

Every Village has an idiot, it would appear we may have a couple.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

huh.

Only read the first 2 pages of this thread so forgive me is I missed something.

I've taken a 7 (now 8 and did something just as "risky" this year) year old out with my daughter ( who is the same age just a little older) on not only 3 day overnight stay on the hook sailing trips but canoe trips into the BWCA where your almost more out of touch with people than on a boat. No radio, only way out is paddling and portaging. Really a death trap for kids...  

Anyways, you've given me a lot to think about. Yes, as a society we suck in this regards. The smiles and laughs the kids have seem to make it worth it for now.


----------



## NCountry (May 25, 2006)

I can't even believe the number of people that agree with not taking the kid with them. I wrote a while back about how stuck up people in yacht clubs seem to be these days and how it is hurting not just the sport of sailing but the image of sailors.
ANYTIME you can be a positive influence on a kid you should. I've done it time and time again. Yes, there were times it was not convenient and Yes, there were times I dreaded it. In the end it these were some of the most rewarding experiences of my life. AND in the end the young person involved benefited in ways that I'll never be able to fully appreciate. SCREW THE LAWYERS AND EVERYONE ELSE. When our world sinks into the toilet so far that we can't even fulfill one of the prime obligations as adults and try to be a positive influence on children the it's time to end the whole stinking mess. No wonder our youth are so screwed up. Look at the great example the adults are setting.
AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Jeez - here we go again.

Bottom line: his boat - his call. Enough said.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Easy for you to say, since it isn't you or your boat being involved.

To sum up... *the OP didn't feel comfortable taking a disadvantaged, troubled 13 YO female minor on a MULTI-DAY sailing trip.* He did not have written consent from the child's legal guardian. He did not know the child, the child's medical and personal history, and had never met the child in question.

Are you saying that you would be comfortable taking a 13 YO female minor on a multi-day sailing trip without consent from her legal guardians, without ever having met the child in question prior to having them aboard your boat, and without knowing if they had any food allergies that may be lethal, or other medical conditions, that may require medication or treatment, or whether they're prone to fits of violence or seasickness. _If so, then you're not very bright, and certainly not someone to be trusted with the care of children. _

I've taken plenty of people out on my boat, adults and children both. However, I would never take anyone on an overnight sail without at least having some prior knowledge of them and having some experience with how they act aboard my boat personally, unless someone I trusted implicitly vouched for them.



NCountry said:


> I can't even believe the number of people that agree with not taking the kid with them. I wrote a while back about how stuck up people in yacht clubs seem to be these days and how it is hurting not just the sport of sailing but the image of sailors.
> ANYTIME you can be a positive influence on a kid you should. I've done it time and time again. Yes, there were times it was not convenient and Yes, there were times I dreaded it. In the end it these were some of the most rewarding experiences of my life. AND in the end the young person involved benefited in ways that I'll never be able to fully appreciate. SCREW THE LAWYERS AND EVERYONE ELSE. When our world sinks into the toilet so far that we can't even fulfill one of the prime obligations as adults and try to be a positive influence on children the it's time to end the whole stinking mess. No wonder our youth are so screwed up. Look at the great example the adults are setting.
> AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## badsanta (Oct 16, 2006)

I agree with the OP, you had plans and I would not want to change them either. I would offer to take them out as long as a guardian came along. Have them meet you early, take them out on a nice day sail and come back to the dock. If you feel comfortable with it, include overnight at the dock or send them on there way. The 4 hour drive is not your responsibility. But the sail would be remembered forever. 
I still remember at age 5 my father walking me along the dock to look at the boats and a man and his wife offered to take us out for a spin. It did not last 30 minutes and it took me decades to get back to a boat but it did start my love of boats. Every time I turn that key I still feel like that kid I was.


----------



## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

NCountry, you can take my son sailing. He is 12. He bites, spits and wets the bed. He punched out his teacher at school now he is in a "special school." He back talks to every adult he meets and has been jailed for stealing from his grandmother. They won't let him Church anymore, the Priest says ripping pages out of the bible on the alter is not funny. 

You don't even have to bring him back until October. 

P. S, Now that I have highlighted his good points, I will need to discuss his problem behaviors with you privately.


----------



## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

Mike:
What's happening in October?

Paul


----------



## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

My son got a meeting with his parole officer!


----------



## NCountry (May 25, 2006)

I had a kid on one of the little league ball teams I coached. At home they had to take out all the sheet rock and cover the whole room in 3/4 inch plywood screwed into the walls. There was a mattress on the floor and nothing else. The light fixture had a metal grate over it. He couldn't be left alone with scissors, matches or any type of tool.
At school he spent what time he wasn't suspended in detention. He had splotches of hair where he had cut it himself with scissors. He has even set part of the house on fire. He was finally medicated to the point of being a zombie. 
In desperation his SINGLE mom signed him up for little league. Danny and I butted heads BIG TIME the very first day. I went home that first day and convinced my self that I would NEVER let this kid back in practice. The next day I decided that Danny was going to be on the ball team even if it killed me. I pulled him aside and told him that if he didn't participate then he would sit on the side of the field and spend all his time watching practice and watch practice he did for several weeks, every practice. When he got up and started to wander around I went over and made him sit back down. Somedays his mother and grandmother would take turns making him stay sitting on the ground and it was a battle. Then one day Danny didn't act out and he practiced the whole time we were there. In fact, he was outstanding. As time went on I had less and less problems with him and eventually he was a starter. On the ball field I finally got him as a T-ball player to work with the rest of the team and we could throw double plays. It was the most amazing thing you have ever seen to see those little kids doing that. 
I coached Danny 4 more years after that. Every season started out the same with Danny spending most of his time sitting on the side of the field watching but I NEVER gave up on him and during the last few years I coached he became an all star player. Before I moved out of the city I got to see Danny and I told him I was leaving. By that time Danny had a real bed in his room and a window that wasn't boarded up. That mean ass little kids cried when I told him I was leaving. So did I......
This is just one story from a group of real misfits on that team. I don't think there was a kid on the time that wasn't "jacked up on ritalin" before every practice. Our first year was a disaster. There were several kids that would just fly the finger at you if you said something they didn't like. One little girl didn't even speak to me for the first two years but every spring there they would all be waiting on me to start practice. Most of them came from single parent homes and they all grew up on the wrong side of town. I probably lost years of my life span working with them and there were honestly times I dreaded going to practice. 
But the games...you can't believe how awesome those kids began to play as they got older. Even as a lowly t-ball team the games were incredible. They were so much fun to watch play that the coaches from other teams would stay at the ball park just to watch them play. One day a losing coach came up with a huge grin on his face. He shook my hand and told me "That's the most runningest, hittingest, aggressive bunch of little kids I've ever seen in my life. I try to go watch all your games just to see what those little guys are going to do next!"
I was one proud coach and I tried to remember what the guy had told me every year when spring rolled around and it was time to start practice. It was the most frustrating, horrible, infuriating thing I've ever done in my life. BUT in the end it was the most rewarding thing I have ever done and you're talking about a guy that has run concert size PA systems and even had the honor of playing in a band in front of thousands of people. NOTHING can compare to the memories I have of that band of hoodlums and thugs that I had the priviledge of helping turn into a baseball team.
You be as selfish as you want. Go ahead and criticize me for my opinion and you just keep kicking those kids off your polished shiny boats. Have a great time. When my tired worn out body finally gives up its last breath of life and I slide into that final sleep before the good lord above calls me home I'm going to have some of the most wonderful memories you can ever hope for because I took the time to have some patience and work with a bunch of future career criminals AND I got to make a difference in a kids life.....
You should take the time to suffer a little inconvenience. You'll be a LOT better person for it.......


----------



## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Nice story, job well done.
Unfortunately this scenerio is different.
I have no idea what I would have done.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

NCountry, for all the good work you claim to have done, you come off as a self-righteous, judgmental *****. I suppose you want to be invited on my boat now.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Since when is the action you perform with a needle on a finger a swear word?

I demand my First Amendment Rights, and yours, too.


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

One will never win in a situation like this!

You can take the high/low road as NC did, or the high/low road as the OP did, neither answer is a win/win to a degree. i a sure we can answer both ways till we're blue in the face. 

Not sure how much time was involved between the initial asking and the actual out we go........BUT, if less than say 48 hrs. I can understand the hesitation. If more than say 48 hrs, I also can understand the hesitation, but with 48 hrs being time to plan, not that 48 hrs is my actual time frame for my answer, I may very well want a bit more, it does give one time to figure out the needs of this child, and plan accordingly, IF said person is willing to take them out. I get this from my wife in regards to my kids going with us at times. She wants an "US" I sometimes want an US and Kids. She has no kids, I have 4, while I do not think of my kids like this 13 yr old, they may be close or like Bubbs kid! or NC's many kids described.

In the end, it is his boat, and he should do as he pleases. On the other hand, offering a day sail intially vs a weekend would have been a nice gesture, or get a day sail ahead of time, to figure out if it would work........but you are now coming from how I would deal with it, not the person reading this. 

As I said earlier, there will never be a right or wrong answer, just how we each see the issue!

Marty


----------



## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

***** is a swear word?
I guess so.


----------



## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

bubb2 said:


> My son got a meeting with his parole officer!


Mike,
How many sons you got?


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

NCountry said:


> You be as selfish as you want. Go ahead and criticize me for my opinion and you just keep kicking those kids off your polished shiny boats. Have a great time.


Whew - that leaves me out. My boat's not shiny at all. Just an oxidizing 4KSB that I continually kick kids off of.

Seriously, my name is Danny, and I just want to thank Coach Country for everything he did for me. I now have a wonderful scissor collection and a job as a securities trader.


----------



## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

NCountry, that's a great thing you did, but you can't think that a baseball diamond and the sea are the same thing. Should astronauts take problem children into space? How about firefighters, into burning buildings? I'm not saying that those things are the same as sailing either -- there is a spectrum, and baseball and sailing are not neighbors on that spectrum.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I don't see how coaching a little league team has anything to do with having a troubled teen on your boat without legal consent for an overnight sail. Little League requires that all the players come with a signed consent form AFAIK. Little League doesn't require you taking legal responsibility for the child in question, or hold you responsible to the same degree as having them as a passenger on your own boat. Having a minor on your boat overnight without parental consent could easily turn into a case of "kidnapping".

The fact that you bring this up shows how clueless you are... the two situations are nothing alike.



NCountry said:


> I had a kid on one of the little league ball teams I coached. At home they had to take out all the sheet rock and cover the whole room in 3/4 inch plywood screwed into the walls. There was a mattress on the floor and nothing else. The light fixture had a metal grate over it. He couldn't be left alone with scissors, matches or any type of tool.
> At school he spent what time he wasn't suspended in detention. He had splotches of hair where he had cut it himself with scissors. He has even set part of the house on fire. He was finally medicated to the point of being a zombie.
> In desperation his SINGLE mom signed him up for little league. Danny and I butted heads BIG TIME the very first day. I went home that first day and convinced my self that I would NEVER let this kid back in practice. The next day I decided that Danny was going to be on the ball team even if it killed me. I pulled him aside and told him that if he didn't participate then he would sit on the side of the field and spend all his time watching practice and watch practice he did for several weeks, every practice. When he got up and started to wander around I went over and made him sit back down. Somedays his mother and grandmother would take turns making him stay sitting on the ground and it was a battle. Then one day Danny didn't act out and he practiced the whole time we were there. In fact, he was outstanding. As time went on I had less and less problems with him and eventually he was a starter. On the ball field I finally got him as a T-ball player to work with the rest of the team and we could throw double plays. It was the most amazing thing you have ever seen to see those little kids doing that.
> I coached Danny 4 more years after that. Every season started out the same with Danny spending most of his time sitting on the side of the field watching but I NEVER gave up on him and during the last few years I coached he became an all star player. Before I moved out of the city I got to see Danny and I told him I was leaving. By that time Danny had a real bed in his room and a window that wasn't boarded up. That mean ass little kids cried when I told him I was leaving. So did I......
> ...


----------



## NCountry (May 25, 2006)

The situation is that no matter the situation you should ALWAYS take time to help kids or show them something better. The "friends" had taken this teenager into their home. I'm sure it was not convenient for them and they were excluded from something because they were helping a troubled kid. The fact that you don't understand this actually speaks to the cluelessness of why so many kids are in trouble these days....


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

At this point I think it's time for the well-worn playground retort:

"I know you are. What am I?"


----------



## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

My boat is my _Sanctum Sanctorum_, my sanctuary: where I go to find peace.

Children disturb my Wa. They annoy me. I don't want them on my boat. Even the well-behaved ones irritate me.

If I decide to not let someone onto my boat, that's my choice. If some self-righteous, pontificating prig wants to save the world one child at a time - have at it! Just keep the noise down and do it away from my boat.


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Dudes this situation was over 3 weeks ago. I'll be having beers with my friends that were party to the situation in an hour. Its bygones.


----------



## Izzy1414 (Apr 14, 2007)

NCountry,

Thank you for your good work. I've had very similar experiences as a youth soccer coach.......as rewarding as anything I've done. But......IMO, it has little to do with midlife's dilemma. It seems to me he just got caught in one of life's unfortunate situations that a perfect person would have handled differently. Not all that uncommon, at least in my world. And I think anyone branding any of the parties involved as unthinking or inconsiderate is a bit harsh. He is entitled to do what he thinks is best on his boat. It sounds like his friends were just trying to extend a helping hand to the girl. They didn't just show up with her, afterall. I can see myself being caught in such a dilemma or something similar. I am NOT one of those perfect people to which I allude. I think most of those show up after the fact. So I can see myself rethinking the situation on Monday morning and recalling the friend with my change of heart. When I found that the youngster had already been informed is when I would hope that I and midlife would have differed in our solutions. He stated that he had no qualms about taking them for a day sail. If that were the case with me, I would hope that I would be willing to work with my friends and alter my plans to include the possibility that our weekend might be broken up into a couple of daysails with nights back at the slip, with the friends taking the child home if there was a problem. The plans could always be expanded from there if it turned out for the better. Seems to me that with a little compromising it could have been worked out. A simple but perfect plan........after the fact of course.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I do take time to help the kids... but the situation the OP is discussing is so far from what you are talking about that what you're saying isn't applicable. The OP had to consider his legal and moral responsibilities and having an unknown kid like that aboard for TWO DAYS without parental consent isn't a good idea. The fact that someone is too clueless to understand why this could be a serious problem says a lot that person.

Kids are often in trouble today because they don't have good role models and come from broken homes or are spoiled and indulged beyond reason. Much of this is the fault of their parents.



NCountry said:


> The situation is that no matter the situation you should ALWAYS take time to help kids or show them something better. The "friends" had taken this teenager into their home. I'm sure it was not convenient for them and they were excluded from something because they were helping a troubled kid. The fact that you don't understand this actually speaks to the cluelessness of why so many kids are in trouble these days....


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Great job Chall! Stirrin' the pot again!


----------



## NCountry (May 25, 2006)

Well, I'm gonna apologize for my "knee jerk" reaction to this story but I'm also going to try to do a better job of explaning something.
As adults we have a moral responsibility towards children. When people like Dennis Rodman say "I'm just a pro basketball player and I don't have to be a role model" they are denying that responsibility and my belief is that they are totally and completely in the wrong. It's fine if you don't share that belief because it would be a dull world if we all agreed on everything.
With that said (and I too like some peace and quiet at times) whether we like it or not there are to many people in the world today that are "all about me" and not enough "give because it's important to the future of all of us".
I have two teenagers in my home that are step-sons from a previous marriage. They are in no way biologically related to me. When their mother became so mentally ill that she was hospitalized I took them in and eventually I was given legal guardianship of them. (Their dad never really put any effort into seeing them or being a dad) It was not easy and the expense of doing so has very much at least delayed and quite possibly jepordized any chance I may have of living my dreams and seeing the world.
I could spend lots of time being angry over the situation but I describe it as being "when it's time to put up or shut up, I put up". It's the way I handled the situation with the ball team and it's the way I handled the situation with my step sons. Does it create incredibly difficult situations? ABSOLUTELY...Why do I do it? Because I feel it is a moral responsibility we all have to help those less fortunate than us. I feel so stronly about this that I do it even when it is an incredible inconvenience because it is the right thing to do. The same applies to exposing kids to the sport of sailing (I'll tell the story of the adhd kid that exploded popcorn all over my boat someday). If we take the time, no matter the inconvenience, to make the sacrifices then the world will be a better place for someone. If in the journey that is my life it improves things for even one person then all my efforts are worth it. I believe I'll be rewarded for what I do. I also have to accept the fact that there are those out there that think there's nothing to life but the here and now and they don't need to worry about a higher purpose. That's fine too it they want to take that chance. As for me, I'll take my chances trying to make things at least one day better for a kid like the one described in the beginning of this thread. If or when the day comes and you have to answer for what you did in your life how will you be able to reply? I already have my answer ready and will continue to live that way. I believe that's why we're here and if you don't believe that way that's OK too........sorry if I offended you and you can now feel free to make fun of me all you want.....fair winds and full sails to all!


----------



## cnc33voodoo (May 15, 2008)

NCountry said:


> You be as selfish as you want. Go ahead and criticize me for my opinion and you just keep kicking those kids off your polished shiny boats. Have a great time.


Not for nothin' but when a kid is so destructive that he has to live in a plywood jail cell, my sailboat is the last place on earth he should be.
There is however a place for that kid, its called jail.
There is also a place for his donkey parents, its called jail.


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

One this thread should probably get closed sooner than later....

Along with the, not sure the child that lives in a plywood room should be in a jail cell per say, I would say he IS living in an equal cell to begin with. Then there is the WHY should the parents be in a jail cell too? Who is to say this child does not have some kind of issue within there brain, that does not allow them to be normal. Even with medication.......... this is beginning to sound like folks that had leprosy, and the lepper colony's of the late 1800's and early 1900's with this type of talk. OR, worst case scenario, the Japanese camps here in WWII, or the concentration camps in Germany on a larger scale............

While some of you will operate with the given child one way, others another way completely opposite I might add, does not mean which is right or wrong! many good suggestions have come up on how to solve the issue, along with the OP saying he is having dinner with the couple at hand, and things seem to be handled in a way that was good for all. 

In the mean time, if you have not worked with folks with different disabilities, it can be rather intimidating at first, then once you figure out the issues, it is not so bad. having been in this persons shoes, ie being told I could not climb Mt Rainer as a 16 yr old, because I had a type of Epilepsy was not fun, I did get to the top about 9 yrs later, I did not let my dream die. My mom purposely did not tell my maternal Gma I had this issue. Otherwise being from the generation she was from, I would have had issues with her in different ways shapes and forms. None of which should matter. Many folks with issues like the girl the OP talked about, are not the parents fault, so slapping the parents, child etc in a jail or equal, is not always teh answer. Then again, neither is letting them do as they please any where and everywhere............... but planning ahead of time is worth trying to get folks out and learning, it may help them, as NC's coaching helped those kids too, even if he does die an early death.


----------



## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Damn, like which imbecile resurrected this thread?? 

They couldn't just read the damn thing and then leave it the hell alone could they?? 

Clearly it is time to move on so Im now off, cause there is another thread here somewhere about a solar stik that I really need to add something to....

It would also appear that this Village has now well and truly exceeded it's quota.


----------



## jinjyr (Oct 29, 2006)

You may feel like a heel but you made the right call. The kid is an unknown quantity. I would not want any unknowns, espesially minors out with me. Your friends probably wont see it that way but you are responsible. Your boat is your sanctuary, they were wrong to extend the invitation without consulting you.


----------



## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

sailortjk1 said:


> Mike,
> How many sons you got?


Did you see my post #90. I am speaking of Michael. He is starting those awkward teenage years. He will grow out of if!


----------



## Izzy1414 (Apr 14, 2007)

bubb2 said:


> Did you see my post #90. I am speaking of Michael. He is starting those awkward teenage years. He will grow out of if!


Yeah Bubb, the boy looks like a real trouble maker. Looks like he and Fred were planning a bank heist or somethin' at the pizza parlor.


----------



## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

I just had to bail Michael out of jail again. Squirt guns full of beer, at the marina mixers are not appropriate, so they say.


----------

