# What is your tightest angle to sail between close haul?



## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Between port tack and starboard tack in a close haul, 

1. What is the smallest angle you have ever achieved?
2. What are the factors that may increase the angle

I have experienced the angle from 120 degrees to as much as 180 degrees, it make sense to me. But that was what I observed. In theory, it should be just 90 degrees, I don't mind to settle for 100 degrees. But not 120 degree or more. 

Am I missing something here?


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

If I really try hard, and don't listen the the Admiral about the wet/rough ride, I manage to tack through just about 90 degrees relative to the apparent wind. Of course, depending on the wind strength and sea state, that translates to somewhere between 100 to 120 degrees relative to the true wind.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hello,

Just about any boat should be able to point about 45 degrees off the apparent wind. However, that doesn't mean you are actually SAILING that close to the wind. For example, my O'day 35 has a shoal draft and a fixed 3 blade prop. If I try to point very high, the boat makes a lot of leeway and basically slides sideways. The shoal draft keel prevents my boat from sailing at high angles. About the best I can do is 50 degrees (tacking about 100 degrees).

A boat that I race on, an early 80's C&C 34 with a deep draft keel sails much closed to the wind. That boat can point at about 35 degrees apparent (about 45 degrees true) and actually sails that high.

I do not profess to be an expert, but things that affect how high you can sail are the keel, rudder, prop (less drag allows you to sail higher), sails, and hull shape. 

If the bottom of your boat is foul with growth, your sails old and bagged out, and a traveler that doesn't work right, you are never going to be able to sail high. 

Clean the bottom, make sure your foils are clean and in good condition, check your sails. When sailing as close to the wind as possible, make sure you trim the headsail in as tight as possible, and after the main sheet is as tight as possible, use the traveler to get the main up to center. That's about as good as your boat will do.

Barry


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

rockDAWG said:


> Between port tack and starboard tack in a close haul,
> 
> 1. What is the smallest angle you have ever achieved?
> 2. What are the factors that may increase the angle
> ...


What type of boat? Keel? Sail Plan?

The worst for me was a Seawolf 30; full keel, unbattened mail, bagged sails. Tacked through 120 degrees.

Best was a C&C 35, fin keel, new sails. Tacked through about 70 degrees.


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## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

Another big factor is the sea state. Any waves are going to significantly knock your pointing ability. In open water 10-15kts winds in a couple of hours will easily create waves that will knock 10 degrees from your pointing ability.

This thread here is bascially talking about the same subject.

Ilenart


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Using decades of racing experience (not all mine - I have had some great sail trimmers aboard including racer JonD and Quantum sail guy Dave Flynn) I can tweak my HR40 to about 30 apparent. I tack through about 90 true.

The biggest deal on my boat is using enough backstay tension to get headstay sag down to about four or five inches. YMMV.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

As said, depends upon the boat, There are two in my club that out point me, and I can get within 75-80* tack in true and 65-75 apparent with a 110 up. Most of the time, add about 5-10* to these numbers. 

marty


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

I think Barry L makes an excellent point. One can sail and tack at 45 degrees to the apparent wind, but if you were to look at the course on the chartplotter, it would appear to be a far more obtuse angle. Not to be obtuse about it, a large part of that is leeway, where you lose the most when closest to the wind. Since I have a lifting keel, it is really apparent when I am too lazy to lower the keel, and the difference in leeway is dramatic. When people talk about how close to the wind they sail, they are usually talking apparent wind, and not actual.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

120*? Might want to tune the old rig, add some outhaul tension, move the jib cars back one, and put on more backstay. Make sure the boom is on center. 120* would take you forever to get to windward.


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## J36ZT (May 18, 2008)

Just less than 60-degrees (28-29 degrees off the apparent wind); that was with crew in 12-15 knots of wind on flat waters. I haven't thought to actually measure the angle on the GPS (heat of the moment and all). I regularly tack 30-35 degrees off the wind.

There are many factors that come into play in determining how high a boat can point. Besides re-designing the boat, spending lots of money on new sails and gear, and having lots of "rail meat" in the right place; anything that causes drag and slows the boat down is really all you can control.

...Yep, narrow pointing angles are what J36s were made for. Well, that and speed.

Skipper,
J/36 "Zero Tolerance"


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Is this like your Jenneau 37? With the keel or the centerboard?

Jeanneau SO 379 for sale on AllBoats.com

Not a racer, but should tack through about 100 true I'd think. roller-furl high-clew jib as in the photos doesn't help much, and if you have one of those mast-furling mainsails that doesn't help either.

But 120 true, or even more, is way too much, at least in normal breeze without too much chop. It's either the sails themselves, or how they're led/trimmed, or how you're steering her. Hard to tell without more factual input or maybe a photo of the boat close-hauled.

Generally, as you've heard above, most "weatherly" boats (sloop rig) will point 45 and make good maybe 50; absolute hotshot upwind racers (think AC boats before they were trimarans) might do a little better than 35, and the average cruiser maybe 50 and make good 55. If, on a decent sloop, you can't tack within 100-110, something's wrong.


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

Boat is happy going to weather at 35deg.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

There are tacking angles and then there are tacking angles. Are you talking the tacking angle between max VMG on either board? If so, the number one improvement you can make is to get the clews of both the main and jib as close to the boat’s centerline as possible. For the main that means upping the traveler so the boom is on centerline. Boats without travelers or small, ineffectual ones will have larger tacking angles. The jib clew also needs to be brought in. The leech should be a fist length or less off the spreader tip or shroud. Fractional boats, with the ability to sheet their jibs inside the shrouds are at an distinct advantage. Barber haulers were developed to bring the clew in as far as possible. Adjust the fairlead block to straighten the jibs leech to match the main’s. Too often, I’ve seen jibs with too much twist. A too large genoa will move the center of effort aft on the boat making leeway more of an issue. A 150 is great off the wind, but is not much of a “beater”. This “loaded up” trim will put a lot more heel in the boat, resulting in a narrower steering grove. Putting crew on the rail helps. As mentioned before, big chop and swells kills the angle because you are moving the boat around in order to keep the VMG up. In the “for what it’s worth department, the tacking angle on my Catalina 34 goes from 90 to a hundred degrees depending upon sail selection, crew size, and wind/water conditions. I believe that this is typical of cruising boats. Racer/cruisers should be about ten degrees narrower.


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

J36ZT said:


> Just less than 60-degrees (28-29 degrees off the apparent wind); that was with crew in 12-15 knots of wind on flat waters. I haven't thought to actually measure the angle on the GPS (heat of the moment and all). I regularly tack 30-35 degrees off the wind.
> 
> There are many factors that come into play in determining how high a boat can point. Besides re-designing the boat, spending lots of money on new sails and gear, and having lots of "rail meat" in the right place; anything that causes drag and slows the boat down is really all you can control.
> 
> ...


In one viewing I've now seen two posts by different folks referring to a J36. There is one in my area that hits all the regattas and rarely misses the podium. The owner is a very good sailor. The "old" J36 will give modern boats with longer waterlines a very serious run for their money in nearly every point of sail and frequently finishes ahead of boats that owe her time!!!


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Hmmm... Abracadabra's Windex is set to 30 degrees and we can put the pointer right on the flags on either tack, if not slightly under, but she's not sailing as efficiently as we'd like on those angles, so we tend not to do it unless we're just playing or we miscalculated and we need to do it to make the next mark.

She's much happier at 35-40 degrees. (Seat-of-the-pants estimate. Someday we'll have one of those fancy schmancy, new-fangled electronic wind instrument thingys .)

Jim


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Haleakula like Abracadabra can easily sail inside the 30 degrees our winded or wind instruments are set for, especially with the right weight distribution and sea condition. At 12-15 knots with the centerboard dropped the J , Sabre, and Farr seem like the only vessels able to keep as close an angle as we can. The C&C 35 are a race class unto themselves on the Great Lakes. Our pointing angles have frustrated many a larger Bene, Tartan, or Catalina in our club beer can races

Dave


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

chef2sail said:


> Our pointing angles have frustrated many a larger Bene, Tartan, or Catalina in our club beer can races
> 
> Dave


I'd hope so!


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