# Start rule question different fleets



## NotQuiteCapnRon (Mar 27, 2008)

Windward start. Boat A is approximately 3 minutes late to the start line. Boat B is in the next fleet to start and within her 4 minute start sequence and making a research run at the line...Therefore both boats are racing by rule. Boat A (leeward) (both starboard) meets boat B near the starting line. Boat B forces boat A down the line and denies boat A ability to start, forcing boat B to jibe, tack, and alter course to cross start line. No other boats are involved or near. Is this within the rules of racing?

Just trying to learn.

Thanks


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Good question..

Not sure what you mean by "forcing boat B to jibe, tack, and alter course to cross start line", but since Boat A has technically "started" (Boat A's start signal has gone), I'd say that, no, it's isn't within the rules of racing because boats that haven't started are not supposed to interfere with those that have... but I'd need to check that up.


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## NotQuiteCapnRon (Mar 27, 2008)

I'll try to define...Boat B attempting to acquire knowledge for her start, rides boat A (keep in mind different fleets) up the line to the windward start mark, forcing Boat A to run away and come back up to wind astern of boat B to start cross the start line legally. Jibe away from the mark and then come back to tack behind and keep clear of boat B to get across the line. Hope that clears it up.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

You said: _"Boat A (leeward) (both starboard) meets boat B near the starting line."_

Then you said: _"Boat B forces boat A down the line..."_

Forget the racing rules, this is a violation of sailing rules/ROTR. Leeward boat (A) is privileged vessel, Boat B is the stand-on vessel.

If I were on Boat A, I would have called leeward, and requested that Boat B come up.

Also, even though Boat B is "in sequence" and therefore racing, if I were Boat B, I don't think I would have been such a jerk as to impede Boat A's late start.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

Boat A should protest Boat B. Boat A was leeward and therefore has rights. Boat B needed to tack away or come up. Such a move should have cost Boat B a 720 or a DSQ.


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## NotQuiteCapnRon (Mar 27, 2008)

Thanks for your reply. A quick read this morning, and a look at the amount of rum left in the bottle on the kitchen counter leads me to apologize for explaining the scenario wrong. 

Correcting myself: Both boats are on Port and B is riding A up to the mark not allowing A to start. I think that makes more sense and is actually what happened.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Not that simple IMHP boat A has no business being in the start area during a different divisions start


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

It actually made more sense before. If you were both on Port, you should have been going from the start pin to the committee boat (at least that's how we alway set it up). In either case this is not a Port/Starboard issue as both boats are on the same tack. This is a windward/leeward case and Boat B is wrong. Starboard trumps Port and Leeward trumps Windward. Boat A was leeward and had rights.

Just to be clear. In this scenario, was boat B running parallel to the line and boat A was close hauled trying to start? Then did Boat B cut off Boat A and force him down the line?? The only thing that could sway this in Boat B's favor is if Boat A could be seen as an overtaking vessel.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

tommays said:


> Not that simple IMHP boat A has no business being in the start area during a different divisions start


While it's true that Boat A should have been long gone, Boat B should have given him room. That is, if I understand the scenario correctly. I don't believe there are any rules against starting 3 minutes late.

That being said, if I were 3 minutes late to the start there's no way I would be anywhere near a faster boat (faster boats usually start later, no?) while he's making his timing run.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

If boat A is in a different divisions start they are already in the wrong and its tough luck if there 3 minutes late as we go every 5 and i NOW have only 2 minutes to start


When you have won a 10 race season by ONE SECOND and 1 point or the difference between 1st and 3rd is 14 seconds you will have limited tolerance who somebody who has already screwed up there race screwing up yours


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"I don't think I would have been such a jerk as to"
See now, that's the difference between yachtsmen and commoners. Since Boat B would have lost nothing by allowing Boat A to complete their best late start, Boat B is guilty of "ungentlemently conduct" or "unsportsmanlike conduct". 
I haven't read the most recent Racing Rules but yes, it used to be that an RC could penalize you for unsportsmanlike conduct, simply for being a rude boor or jerk.

OTOH, a burdened boat is a burdened boat, and if someone simply holds you to your burden...that's life. The protest committee won't thank you for complaining about it.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Hopefully this will sort it out once and for all. From the ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing 2009-2012:

I really don't understand why Boat A didn't call Boat B up, since the windward boat must keep clear:


> 11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
> When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.


...but anyways:



> 2 FAIR SAILING
> A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be excluded from the boat's series score.





> 23 INTERFERING WITH ANOTHER BOAT
> 23.1 If reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing.
> 
> *Racing: * A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires...


In other words, technically, *both* boats were racing and, unless Boat A had grounds to protest Boat B on Rule 2 (which she might, IF you were winning the series at the time and IF you wanted to be a real p****)...

That's life!! 

I hope that helps.


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## NotQuiteCapnRon (Mar 27, 2008)

> Just to be clear. In this scenario, was boat B running parallel to the line and boat A was close hauled trying to start? Then did Boat B cut off Boat A and force him down the line


Exactly!

I will add that in this situation boat B was hailed and made aware that Boat A was trying to start. Boat B responded with "I don't care you are in my box". I'm looking for a rule that supports that response.

Thanks


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

NotQuiteCapnRon said:


> Exactly!
> 
> I will add that in this situation boat B was hailed and made aware that Boat A was trying to start. Boat B responded with "I don't care you are in my box". I'm looking for a rule that supports that response.
> 
> Thanks


If two boats are on the same tack, the windward boat has to keep clear of the leeward boat, but, unfortunately, a hail that "I'm trying to start!" isn't likely to get a positive response... 

My take on it is that, under this scenario, Rule 2 (above) is all you've got.. since you were both "racing" at the time. If a collision occured he'd most likely have been in the wrong.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

NotQuiteCapnRon said:


> Exactly!
> 
> I will add that in this situation boat B was hailed and made aware that Boat A was trying to start. Boat B responded with "I don't care you are in my box". I'm looking for a rule that supports that response.
> 
> Thanks


By the rules, boat B was wrong and should have been protested. While it would be technically correct to protest him, I don't think I would have. Boat A was already 3 minutes late, and could have easily eased a bit to slow down and let boat B get by. Then sheet back in and you're off to the races 3:15 late instead of whatever you were after all the commotion. After all, aren't we talking about racing for bragging rights and plastic trophies? Neither of which are going to be won 3 minutes late to the line.

Being a good sport (and it doesn't sound like boat B's driver is) is more important than being right, especially if I have no chance of winning. A good example of this was a couple of years ago on a very light air day. The wind shifted enough that we were close hauled to the reaching mark. A lighter and faster boat from another fleet was right on my tail. He couldn't go above me, and tried to go below, only to be trapped by my wind shadow. I asked him if I went down, could he get above me? He said yes, so I did and he did. I don't think he won, but he had a fighting chance. It took me a bit to recover from going too low, but the faster boats in my fleet were long gone so it really didn't matter. Later at the clubhouse the other sailor told everyone what a great guy I am. Better than a plastic trophy any day.


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## NotQuiteCapnRon (Mar 27, 2008)

Thanks guys....Most of what has been contributed to this string is pretty much what I thought too, but I really couldn't find a rule other than 2 or 23 as mentioned. What I get from the opinions here is Boat A is an unintentional Jerk and Boat B is a Jerk on purpose. 


No one was protested...Whether in the right or wrong, Boat B skipper likes to work things out on the water and not burden the CB with BS.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

"Yachts shall keep clear of the starting line or its extensions by a minimum of 30 yards after the initial Warning signal is made and until the Warning signal is made for their division start. Offending yachts may be protested."

When we go into sequence it involves 45 boats in 5 divisions and keeping OUT of the starting area out of sequence is just the only way it can work as its enough of a fire drill with the 8 to 10 boats that belong there 




"A lighter and faster boat from another fleet was right on my tail. He couldn't go above me, and tried to go below, only to be trapped by my wind shadow. I asked him if I went down, could he get above me? He said yes, so I did and he did. I don't think"

I think pulling over so to speak to allow a boat that put themselves in a bad position to improve there finish is not really to fair the other boats in that division AND THEN THERE IS RULE 17


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

*Not always right, but never in doubt?*



> ... No one was protested...Whether in the right or wrong, Boat B skipper likes to work things out on the water and not burden the CB with BS.


If Boat B likes to work things out on the water, then he should know his rules better for next time. Boat A should have seen him coming and gone around his transom (already suggested) or taken him up to the moon, as leeward boat.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

*No mercy?*



> When we go into sequence it involves 45 boats in 5 divisions and keeping OUT of the starting area out of sequence is just the only way it can work as its enough of a fire drill with the 8 to 10 boats that belong there "
> 
> So a boat that had crew stuck in traffic on the LIE, and which arrives at the starting area 30 seconds after their starting signal, has to wait a half hour, for all the other boats to start, before she begins her race?
> 
> "I think pulling over so to speak to allow a boat that put themselves in a bad position to improve there finish is not really to fair the other boats in that division AND THEN THERE IS RULE 17


 Will you still agree with this on a light air day as you catch up to, but then are unable to pass the last Atlantic (the one with the foul bottom?) on the course, and your competitors in the J/24 fleet slip by the two of you?

Rule 17 ? Boat A's proper course is pointing as high as she possibly can, to try to get to the windward mark. She has started. Boat B apparently prevented her from sailing her proper course, and should have been protested. Boat B, before her starting signal, has no proper course.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

A good sportsman will live with the consequences of there mistakes and not involve others 

Will you still agree with this on a light air day as you catch up to, but then are unable to pass the last Atlantic (the one with the foul bottom?) on the course, and your competitors in the J/24 fleet slip by the two of you?

I would be covering the other boats in my division and if i was in the above position i would have to live with the consequences of the POOR tactics involved in putting MYSELF there 



Rule 17 ? Boat A's proper course is pointing as high as she possibly can, to try to get to the windward mark. She has started. Boat B apparently prevented her from sailing her proper course, and should have been protested. Boat B, before her starting signal, has no proper course.

There is no rule 17 before the start 

"A lighter and faster boat from another fleet was right on my tail. He couldn't go above me, and tried to go below, only to be trapped by my wind shadow. I asked him if I went down, could he get above me? He said yes, so I did and he did. I don't think"

Rule 17 was broken HERE we gotta follow all THE RULES 


This other A-B thing involved a LOT more than 2 boats or they would have had no problem getting over the line


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## maxmunger (Dec 29, 2005)

There is no way to tell what is going on here. The story keeps changing. Which mark (pin or RC) are they approaching on what tack? B can hardly be timing his start if running parallel to the line for very long.
A could be late for lots of reasons and has full rights to start, however both are racing and those rules must be followed. B may not be aware that A is in a different fleet. 
It is shame that two boats can screw around and perhaps spoil the racing for others. Both must be real novices!


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

tommays said:


> A good sportsman will live with the consequences of there mistakes and not involve others
> 
> Will you still agree with this on a light air day as you catch up to, but then are unable to pass the last Atlantic (the one with the foul bottom?) on the course, and your competitors in the J/24 fleet slip by the two of you?
> 
> I would be covering the other boats in my division and if i was in the above position i would have to live with the consequences of the POOR tactics involved in putting MYSELF there


It could be argued that the other skipper put himself in a poor position. I would say that he was the victim of an unfortunate wind shift. On a lake in Kansas, wind shifts happen without warning and are certainly unpredictable, especially on light air days. On this day the wind shifted about 50 degrees en-route from the windward mark to the reaching mark. The unfortunate skipper in an Ultima 20 found himself behind me when the wind shift occurred. The other boats in his fleet were already past me. He didn't ask me to pull over, I offered. Was it unfair to the other racers? I guess you could argue that, but in many other forms of racing slower competitors are REQUIRED to pull over for faster competitors, so that racers can RACE.

I don't know where you sail Tommays, but sailing in Kansas isn't like sailing on big water. There are certainly challenges that happen on big water that will never happen on a lake in KS, but we have our own set of challenges. Wind shifts when racing is one of them. We are accustomed to tacking or gybing every 10 minutes or less if the wind doesn't shift. On a "light and variable" day, we may be tacking every 2-3 minutes just to stay pointed at the mark. In fact, we started one race on port tack and never had to tack to the windward mark, but we were flying the spinnaker when we got there. It's a PITA but we all understand that getting caught behind a slower boat may not necessarily be the result of poor tactics. It could just be bad luck.

BTW the other racers in his fleet thought I was a nice guy for letting him by as well.


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