# Safety and security in the Caribbean.



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Every now and the someone posts a question about how safe it may be to sail the Caribbean.
A few months back I posted "de shotupboatmon" about the veracity of the reports on the CSSN and after some research I found that of 5 reports in 3 or 4 years of pirate attacks between Grenada and Trinidad, only one had any veracity at all! Now it appears that the Caribbean Safety and Security Net has a lot more folks questioning the validity of their reporting system. 
So, for those worried about the safety of sailing the Caribbean Islands, I suggest you are probably a lot safer on your boat sailing down here than you would be on the waterfront of most American cities.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Gulf of paria on your end.
Honduras and nic in the west
Then some places in haiti that you should not go


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

This is on my mind as we intend to do the Western Carib next winter (20/21). Recent reports have been concerning.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Still read noonsite. However this pass fall there was a rash of theft in the southern bays of Grenada. The victims directly reported the events of the local morning net. The local cruisers figured out perps were swimming out to unattended boats. Then either swimming back or stealing a tender from the boat then abandoning it once they got back to land. No mention of these events on noonsite.
While we were in St. Lucia several couples were mugged just outside the large shopping area abutting the bay. Again no mention. 
While in the BVIs a cruiser was shot at. He was moored in the east end. That did appear in the local news but not on the sailor websites. 
So think it goes both ways. Throughout the Caribbean dinghies are stolen. Seems mostly for the engines. But agree violence against cruisers is rare. Feel safer in the Islands then in Baltimore,Washington, Detroit, Chicago or LA. So your point is well taken. However, just like any major city anywhere in the world there’s hot spots to avoid. It’s on you to figure out where not to go and when not to go.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

capta said:


> ......I suggest you are probably a lot safer on your boat sailing down here than you would be on the waterfront of most American cities.


I find cruising the Caribbean to be quite manageable. However, this is an over exaggeration. Most cities? No way. In most US cities I've been to, I don't even lock my companionway. I've chained my dinghy to the docks exactly twice.

While I agree that the world is a safer place than some make it sound, I don't think the antidote is to overstate the case.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Ok.... Well... And definitely without my moderators hat on...


In 2010 I went up the gulf of Aden and the Red Sea and we had pirates. Real ones.

When I got to the Caribbean I felt safe as houses. Safe. Very safe. 

The difference you feel when 50 miles off Somalia and in the Caribbean islands is so different it's utterly laughable.

When I started reading the Caribbean Safety Networks stuff about stolen unlocked dinghies I realised what BS they were . I had just defied murdering extremists to be plunged into a tepid bay of dinghy theft fear.

The Caribbean is as safe as it gets. Please do not read the exacerbating BS. Listen to the local info... If you need to drive overnight from Trinidad to Grenada with no light then DO It. It's only 70 miles. It's not the 1,600 nms I had to go.
If you have to lock your dinghy up what's the price of a padlock? $10? 

Please don't listen to "security networks".
Use your own brain.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

My view is...
1..at distance
2..close in
3..at anchor

On land is everywhere most people deal with daily..nothing unique

Awareness and plans


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Ok.... Well... And definitely without my moderators hat on...
> 
> In 2010 I went up the gulf of Aden and the Red Sea and we had pirates. Real ones.
> 
> ...


Mark, 
It's all about life experience. I've found that fear is the inverse of risk experienced.

In my opinion Americans have an overactive sense of fear due to the media.

Visit some of the less attractive parts of the world where the real shooting is happening and you'll come away with your sense of "danger" re-calibrated and an enhanced ability to sense when something's not right.

Jim


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

capta said:


> ...I found that of 5 reports in 3 or 4 years of pirate attacks between Grenada and Trinidad, only one had any veracity at all!


I'd be curious to know exactly how you were able to determine the veracity of reports 3-4 years old. And exactly what you mean by saying 4 of the 5 had no veracity.



JimMcGee said:


> Visit some of the less attractive parts of the world where the real shooting is happening and you'll come away with your sense of "danger" re-calibrated and an enhanced ability to sense when something's not right.


This I agree with completely. In the end, it is your own sense of "when something's not right" that you should be listening to.

I understand that there is a huge difference between a risk of being killed and a risk of having your dinghy stolen. You need to balance your worries with the real level of risk that you are talking about. Nonetheless, I'd still prefer NOT to have my dinghy stolen!


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

denverd0n said:


> I'd be curious to know exactly how you were able to determine the veracity of reports 3-4 years old. And exactly what you mean by saying 4 of the 5 had no veracity.QUOTE]
> Well, we've been here for around 8, and travel to Trinidad quite a bit, so we hear the real stories from more reliable sources on both ends. Like the marina personnel where a boatr first docks or a yard that supposedly "fixed" damage. If you go on Grenada cruisers facebook page right now and read Darren's response to on claim; a good example of the wrongful claims I think are way too common on CSSN.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

capta said:


> denverd0n said:
> 
> 
> > I'd be curious to know exactly how you were able to determine the veracity of reports 3-4 years old. And exactly what you mean by saying 4 of the 5 had no veracity.QUOTE]
> ...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

capta said:


> Every now and the someone posts a question about how safe it may be to sail the Caribbean.
> A few months back I posted "de shotupboatmon" about the veracity of the reports on the CSSN and after some research I found that of 5 reports in 3 or 4 years of pirate attacks between Grenada and Trinidad, only one had any veracity at all! Now it appears that the Caribbean Safety and Security Net has a lot more folks questioning the validity of their reporting system.
> So, for those worried about the safety of sailing the Caribbean Islands, I suggest you are probably a lot safer on your boat sailing down here than you would be on the waterfront of most American cities.


Now that's real fair.....comparing the Caribbean to an American city. How about comparing it to say Annapolis, Newport, Bar Harbor. I don't think anyone is attacking cruisers there.

I like most of what you post, but even Paradise has crime issues. Besides it would be good for business if you thought or posted otherwise.?????


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> Now that's real fair.....comparing the Caribbean to an American city. How about comparing it to say Annapolis, Newport, Bar Harbor. I don't think anyone is attacking cruisers there.
> 
> I like most of what you post, but even Paradise has crime issues. Besides it would be good for business if you thought or posted otherwise.&#55357;&#56832;&#55357;&#56832;&#55357;&#56397;&#55357;&#56832;&#55357;&#56832;


I resent your implication that I posted this thread to make potential customers, as we do not take passengers to Trinidad and you know that very well. I am not the only one who has seen the flaws in the CSSN system, and for whatever reason, there are folks misreporting incidents. Darren from Prickly Bay Marina caught one person doing it red handed. As for why, ask them, don't hassle me.
But the fact remains, it has been happening long enough folks have come on here questioning the safety of sailing the eastern Caribbean after reading these tall tales. Many who ask about security down here seem terrified to even think of sailing without weapons and almost every discussion about security devolves back to weapons, as you also well know. And yet most of those people (many who seemed afraid enough in their home towns to own weapons or even have a carry permit [myself included, working the waterfront in Charleston, SC]) lived, worked or travelled to places in the US much more dangerous than *ANY* island in the eastern Caribbean, so yes, I think comparing them is fair. Why didn't you do the same and compare your cities (towns?) to Mustique, as that would be a better comparison
If any of you choose to believe what are unsubstantiated reports on CSSN rather than read the serious inquiries about their whole reporting system in the eastern Caribbean (and I can only speak about here, where I sail and have spoken to many, even some who have been attacked (not one between Trini and Grenada, but several sailing too close to or actually to Venezuela) then that is perfectly fine with me. But for those who wish the truth, then I offer that.
Sail down here or not; I certainly don't care. All I did was offer information.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Some of the poorest countries of the world are in the Caribbean 

The Caribbean is rife with crime. It’s just like every other part of the world. No area is exempt. Maybe not just in the particular areas you sail in or sail to or maybe you just have not encountered it. 

Countries like Haiti, Jamaica, have areas I would not be caught dead in. I believe they still are in the Caribbean. 

I have sailed to many beautiful islands in the Caribbean. Never felt threatened. Everywhere I’ve sailed there were issues with theft of dinghies and outboards. 

However 

there are areas which are not that way. The threats should no be glossed over so glibly or be ignored. Cruisers who potentially could stop in these areas-should be made aware of them so as to avoid them or be cautious. Reports of theft, bribery , violence should be public knowledge. 

You are the one who made the comparison to American cities. Which I felt was unfair. Most areas of America are just as “safe” as anywhere in the Caribbean. 

I think it’s wise for any cruiser to consider their own security and have a plan before you go. If it means outfitting your boat with measures to prevent break-ins , pre planned routes to avoid previous violent actions/ assaults, filing plans in case you come up missing or come into trouble.

Knowing where crimes have been committed is part of it.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I logged on to say

It's nice to see that the "I will win this internet "debate" even though I don't have real knowledge" is alive and well.

But of course once I logged on my view of replies changed and became a lot more pleasant via magic of the Ignore List .

I've been to a lot of the big crime places in the US and never got attacked etc. It's because I'm not an idiot or a street thug, which are the 2 biggest victim categories. I certainly don't expect 99+% of the caribbean to be more dangerous.

You guys want to read about crime etc aganist cruiser/boaters? Join the Key West mooring field FB page!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

There are places that have a bad enough rep that it has effected cruisers behavior. St. Lucia is high on that list. However, I really like St. Lucia. Have stayed in Rodney bay without difficulties and felt quite safe. It has kind of the feel of parts of PR where you’re extremely safe within the resort/marina but need to be careful if you wander around outside. 
Dominica is the second poorest island in the entire Caribbean with only Haiti being poorer. Still, cruisers avoid Haiti but have no issues with Dominica. PAYS is having it’s internal issues but they do keep you safe and the structure is such you can wander around in the interior safely.
Each island has its hotspots. The east end of Tortola can be shaky. Even inland parts on the north side of Martinique. The so called rich islands like st.martin have their spots. Know of a pickpocketing in St. Barts.
People are people. There’s good/bad everywhere. Don’s right. A bit of street sense tempered with some local knowledge and you lower (but don’t eliminate) your risk.
There’s a bit of difference in cruisers thinking about securing your boat I’ve heard and would be interested in comments.
Some think if you do everything possible you decrease your risk. Others think if they want to get in their going to get in so will do extensive structural damage to your boat. Instead of just replacing the cheapo companionway lock you’ll be doing glass work or replacing hatches or other expensive work. In either case your valuables are gone. Most sailboats have a lot of good hidey holes and if used may safe some stuff from theft.
In Spanish Town saw a boat being fixed. Companionway had a steel grate with a massive lock. From the yard was told thieves took a battery powered sawsall and you could see the section of the house they cut away. Huge repair. In the lagoon at a group dinner was told about thieves using a simple curved crowbar on the hatches. Sprung the hatch bending it’s frame but also crushed the core in the deck ruining the glass. 
On the other side have been told stories where an attempt at entry was underway and aborted as thieves became concerned about discovery as it was taking too long. 
We try to buddy boat or at least get friendly with our neighbors in the anchorage. Talk about keeping an eye out on each other’s boats. Seems wise. 
As much as I like anchoring away from everyone tend to avoid it except in those situations where I’m off an island with no potable water (hence no residents) and sufficiently away from a hot area so low likelihood of small powercraft coming out and hitting on us.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Any port in a storm? Maybe not...


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I lived 4 years in the eastern Caribbean back in the early 90s and had no problems with crime.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Ok these reports are very easy to find and not listening to " security networks". These reports are on the internet just google search them. They come from reputable sources. You just have to look.

I am certainly not saying don't go there. I have been many times (20+) . However don't be blind to what may lurk behind the beautiful scenery and most of the friendliness shown by many of the people native to the various islands.

We aren't talking about pirates here.....that's only a small segment insignificant section of the crime profile. 
There are no pirates that I know of in the US or the Chesapeake. What there are issues, are overall crime. Drug crime, murders, thefts which can lead to assaults. While you may ridicule dinghy crime, had you been present when it was happening chances are it could lead to more violent crime. Domestic violence is particularly high in this area compared to many other world regions.

Visitors to the Caribbean should not be lulled into the fantasy view of paradise. The region suffers from the same anti social tendencies that every area has. Cruisers going a shore are exposed to this and may be unwittingly let their guard down buy the " picture painting" that the area is paradise.

Cruisers who expose themselves to the police and justice systems of some of these third world countries are shocked to realize they don't have the rights or protections of the LEOs from their home countries. Some areas of course are worse than others. Just like in their home countries. Bribery and graft is rampant in my experience in the Caribbean and present even in the " nice " areas.

According to the statistics the drug crime is extremely high in the Caribbean. Drug syndicates use the region and have large networks to move their drugs to the US mainland. Some countries are used to launder and hide the vast monies made. Crime born of drug use and poverty is also high. A non resident on a sailing yacht would be a perfect target ( cruiser) .

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTHAITI/Resources/CaribbeanC&VChapter1.pdf

https://www.tripsavvy.com/caribbean-crime-warnings-1488166

https://www.securitymagazine.com/ar...ts-high-violent-crime-rates-in-the-caribbeanY

All I'm saying is have a protection plan in case. Safety first always


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Sailing Ocean Fox has a new interview on yt
I dont follow them...just popped up
Its pertinent to this thread.
I am tech challenged to posting direct links


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

RegisteredUser said:


> Sailing Ocean Fox has a new interview on yt
> I dont follow them...just popped up
> Its pertinent to this thread.
> I am tech challenged to posting direct links


Interesting interview. Sounds like they were anchored alone in a remote place and they won't be doing that again.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Just so people know, there is crime everywhere


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

It seems like a lot of people don't do even basic research anymore on areas they visit. Nombre de Dios has been a well-known bad place for many years. Besides, it is a very crappy anchorage, if not dangerous in itself. There is no reason to go there with other safer places within a few miles in either direction (5nm one direction, 2nm the other). Just getting into the bay from sea is the same distance as going to a known, safe, good anchorage.

In the same vein, it seems the Ocean Fox people caused issues in the San Blas islands by taking coconuts and arguing with Kunas about laws and regulations. Again, they didn't do even basic research there. 

I don't mean to blame the victim here, and readily admit that bad things do happen in good places, but this particular incident needn't have happened.

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

At this point have cruised the windwards and leewards enough to have some sense of this. Know which places are the equivalent of the south Bronx and which are Sutton place. 
Still there is a chance to be victimized anywhere. Do read noonsite. Do listen to the local cruiser nets. Do raise and lock dinghy and engine. 
Some places I just now skip. Sail by St. Vincent. Stay out of the lagoon use Marigot instead. Nicer. Doesn’t smell. Can even make water. Won’t go to Trinidad except in a flotilla and well east. 
I grew up in the lower east side of manhattan. Inspite of having street sense was mugged once. Feces occurs. 
While cruising have no jewelry. No watch nor wedding ring. Don’t dress up. Don’t flash. Lock everything. Never anchor alone except in extremely remote places beyond small boat range and then lock up before sleeping. 
Just like you do everything possible to not be hacked. You do everything possible to decrease risk of violence or theft. 
As an aside. Cable no longer works except in high visibility settings. Use chain on your dinghy. Knock on wood haven’t been hit yet. If gone off the boat for days put engine in a locker or storage. Not locked on a rail. Lock dinghy even if left on deck.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

A big large huge light in the cockpit at night so crooks don't feel comfortable.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

outbound said:


> At this point have cruised the windwards and leewards enough to have some sense of this. Know which places are the equivalent of the south Bronx and which are Sutton place.
> Still there is a chance to be victimized anywhere. Do read noonsite. Do listen to the local cruiser nets. Do raise and lock dinghy and engine.
> Some places I just now skip. Sail by St. Vincent. Stay out of the lagoon use Marigot instead. Nicer. Doesn't smell. Can even make water. Won't go to Trinidad except in a flotilla and well east.
> I grew up in the lower east side of manhattan. Inspite of having street sense was mugged once. Feces occurs.
> ...


Your prescriptions are too unsettling for me... almost paranoid... no watch, or wedding band.... cell phone? I sailed and anchored in all those Islands in the 90s.... there was crime... maybe things are worse now. I never felt unsafe back then. I prefer Marigot to Rodney Bay too.

Does this apply to all those lovely Caribbean islands these days?

Islands

I'm searching for an island 
It's just right for me
A place so special
It's just got to be

Warm waters lapping
Calm peaceful shores
Quaint little villages
And so very much more

The island has mountain peaks 
With clouds about the top
It rains each day an hour
But then must simply stop

The rains fill the ponds,
Rivers and the lakes
You only see sailboats
Ne'er a power boat wake

This island has meadows 
Grasses of delicious green
Flowers abound in multitudes 
On the hills and by the streams

Palm lined sandy beaches 
and rocky cliffs too
Everything imaginable 
All surrounded by endless blue

I'll set down my anchor 
Watch the sun arise
Each day will be different 
Hold some new surprise

Local folks with so much charm
A society that seems fair
A dollar's still a dollar 
But no one seems to care

I'll befriend all the sailors
Who come and drop their hook
The good ones with flair
Have also come to look

I'll forget the winter season
The cold and freezing rains
And not miss the deserts
nor even the endless plains

The great cities will be like
far distant dreams
Full of crowds, noise and traffic 
In never ending streams

Each island that I've sailed to
Meets just part of my need
I'm still searching and exploring
Not missing a good lead

But when to weigh anchor?
And when to make way?
I struggle with this question
Each and every day

The next island beckons
And summons me "sail on"
With promises of new delights
To build a life upon

Not always have I lived 
This searching life at sea
Yet there is something about sailing 
That's forever part of me

jso
9/26/94


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I sometimes wonder how many crime "reports" are done by cruisers looking to keep people away.

A friend knowing of my plans about staying in Leperon next year sent me a crime report link. When I asked the cruisers there about it on facebook they got "put out" saying they hadn't heard of any of the reported events.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Need to be careful assessing "end of the road" places like Luperon, Rio Dulce, Key West - the people there identify with the place and have often lost objectivity to the point of being overly-defensive and having alternate facts.

That said, I know at least some of the "danger" reports are misinterpretations or misunderstandings by those that made the report. Or petty things blown up into life-threatening drama descriptions because it was the first time a person encountered this type of thing. 

On the other hand, bad things do happen, and there are bad places.

Mark


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I’m following with interest because we are in the Eastern Carib this year and have tentative plans to do the Western Carib next year. So I’ve got to commit to a summer haul out spot pretty soon, either Grenada or Curaçao. Grenada is OK. But my first thought would be Curaçao which would give us opportunity to roam Bonaire this year, but pretty much commits us to head West next year. 

So the crime situation is on my mind.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

hpeer said:


> I'm following with interest because we are in the Eastern Carib this year and have tentative plans to do the Western Carib next year. So I've got to commit to a summer haul out spot pretty soon, either Grenada or Curaçao. Grenada is OK. But my first thought would be Curaçao which would give us opportunity to roam Bonaire this year, but pretty much commits us to head West next year.
> 
> So the crime situation is on my mind.


You won't be roaming Bonaire. There is one harbor with mandatory moorings. You won't even be roaming Curacao, as there is essentially one harbor, and you need to register your anchoring spot and not move from it. The anchorage in Curacao is dirty and crowded, and would be a boring place to spend an entire summer. Grenada gives you the opportunity to continue to cruise the Windwards, while still being a day sail back to Grenada.

Oops, I just reread and see you are hauling out. Then it doesn't matter, except you still will not be roaming Bonaire. I left the above for future reference.

FWIW, the trip from Grenada to Curacao is all downwind and easy sailing. It doesn't get sporty until after there.

Mark


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

colemj said:


> Need to be careful assessing "end of the road" places like Luperon, Rio Dulce, Key West - the people there identify with the place and have often lost objectivity to the point of being overly-defensive and having alternate facts.


That can be the truth. I am a member of the Key West Facebook page. I once commented that all I read on it seemed to be about stuff getting stolen and the water cops "harassing" people. The group went all crazy at me.

Hey it's just like a forum sometimes :laugh


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Don L said:


> That can be the truth. I am a member of the Key West Facebook page. I once commented that all I read on it seemed to be about stuff getting stolen and the water cops "harassing" people. The group went all crazy at me.
> 
> Hey it's just like a forum sometimes :laugh


I think you are right and you'll find that when you ask people who have permanent residence or cruise in the same area continuously. Don't expect to get an objective review as no one would either admit or want to be told the area they chose to live was either dangerous, had a good crime rate, or was polluted.

You need to do your own research. Look at the police logs, crime statistics etc. then of course you have to do due diligence in practicing personal safety. Taking advice from people who are there is only one factor. Metrics are indisputable.

You can't let the beautiful scenery and temperatures of "paradise" fool you into making an incorrect assumption.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

outbound said:


> At this point have cruised the windwards and leewards enough to have some sense of this. Know which places are the equivalent of the south Bronx and which are Sutton place.


This is off topic, I apologize, but I don't think the south Bronx is that bad anymore. I was walking around the Mott Haven neighborhood last weekend and it seemed fine.

I had an event Friday night at 149th in Harlem. I wanted a hotel in walking distance, and it was kind of last minute, so I ended up across the river in the Bronx. I don't think I had ever been in the Bronx before, so Saturday morning I spent an hour or so walking around. It wasn't exactly scenic, but it didn't feel unsafe. I did some Google searches after I left it turns out the crime rate has plummeted since the 90s.

Anyway. Crime moves. What was once dangerous may now be safe; what was once safe may now be dangerous.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnesail said:


> I don't think the south Bronx is that bad anymore.
> I had an event Friday night at 149th in Harlem. .


If you're a bad dude in those areas you've gotta be a RICH bad dude.

Each time I am in New York I have a look at the real estate prices - sorry, cant avoid it - and no one on Manhattan can own dirt for under $1 million. Thats dirt, not an apartment which is a percentage of dirt.

Its all changed.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Kinda like Hoboken. Use to be a dump. Now totally unaffordable. My bad.


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