# Testing the waters in Pennsylvania



## motoben

Hi all! I'm Ben and I live in the Philadelphia area of Pennsylvania, USA. I have never sailed, but it has been something that I've wanted to do for a number of years. I didn't exactly grow up on the water, but I've spent a fair bit of time kayaking/boating/fishing on freshwater and saltwater (inshore and offshore). 

My one and only time on a sailboat was when I was a kid and was helping tow a very small catamaran behind a pontoon boat. My job was to sit on the bow of the catamaran and hold one end of the tow rope while my cousin held the other end on the pontoon. Naturally, after a bit of boredom set in, we engaged in a tug of war that ended abruptly when he yanked me clean off the catamaran while we were underway. Hopefully my future sailing experiences are as entertaining!

Anyway, seeing as I know next to nothing about sailing, I plan to just be a sponge for a while and soak up as much information as I can. One of my next steps is to take some sort of sailing lesson, so if anyone has any recommendations in my area I'd greatly appreciate it!


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## outbound

Find a class racing group in your area. Any class-j boats, stars, flying scots - anything. Doesn’t matter what type of boat as long as it’s sailed with two or more. Offer to do prep and boat maintenance in exchange for the opportunity to crew. That’s costs nothing but sweat and time. Racing will teach you how to sail. YouTubes, online courses and books will teach you the rest. Owning a boat when you get to that point teaches the mechanical skills.


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## capta

Rather than dump a bunch of money on sailing courses my suggestion would be to buy a 15 foot or smaller very cheap dinghy that's pretty beat up, but serviceable. This is not going to be a boat to take your friends out on, but instead you will be crashing into docks, running aground and even tipping her over on occasion. This is the boat to make all your beginner's mistakes on, before you buy a nicer, more expensive boat. And believe me, if you start with the more expensive boat, you are still going to make all the same mistakes, classes or not, but the repair bills will be much more expensive, and if you load the boat up with friends, there is the possibility of someone getting hurt. Sailing isn't rocket science, but it does take a lot of sailing to get it.
This is how almost every professional sailor of note learned to sail, not through some expensive cookie cutter course.
Along with your little beater, I would highly recommend a great little book called Royce's Sailing Illustrated, a fun yet very comprehensive book filled with important information for the novice sailor or experienced professional. No massive preachy tome this, just a well put together book with everything from rigging to docking and even splicing. I've been using it to teach sailing for over 45 years, and still refer to it now and then, myself.
Good luck and remember, sailing is supposed to be fun, so keep that in mind when you are having a hard day.


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## motoben

outbound said:


> Find a class racing group in your area. Any class-j boats, stars, flying scots - anything. Doesn't matter what type of boat as long as it's sailed with two or more. Offer to do prep and boat maintenance in exchange for the opportunity to crew. That's costs nothing but sweat and time. Racing will teach you how to sail. YouTubes, online courses and books will teach you the rest. Owning a boat when you get to that point teaches the mechanical skills.


Thanks, I'll look into racing groups in the area. I get the feeling that there are a lot on-the-water things to learn beyond what one can pick up via Youtube, books, online courses, etc.


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## motoben

capta said:


> Rather than dump a bunch of money on sailing courses my suggestion would be to buy a 15 foot or smaller very cheap dinghy that's pretty beat up, but serviceable. This is not going to be a boat to take your friends out on, but instead you will be crashing into docks, running aground and even tipping her over on occasion. This is the boat to make all your beginner's mistakes on, before you buy a nicer, more expensive boat. And believe me, if you start with the more expensive boat, you are still going to make all the same mistakes, classes or not, but the repair bills will be much more expensive, and if you load the boat up with friends, there is the possibility of someone getting hurt. Sailing isn't rocket science, but it does take a lot of sailing to get it.
> This is how almost every professional sailor of note learned to sail, not through some expensive cookie cutter course.
> Along with your little beater, I would highly recommend a great little book called Royce's Sailing Illustrated, a fun yet very comprehensive book filled with important information for the novice sailor or experienced professional. No massive preachy tome this, just a well put together book with everything from rigging to docking and even splicing. I've been using it to teach sailing for over 45 years, and still refer to it now and then, myself.
> Good luck and remember, sailing is supposed to be fun, so keep that in mind when you are having a hard day.


I've actually got a copy of Royce's on the way! That's an interesting point about the small boat instead of courses. I was considering taking a course as a lower budget/lower commitment first step. Actually having a boat to practice (and fail) on instead of being a tourist at a sailing course also appeals to how I'm wired. And, I would very definitely start with a small boat. Well, looks like it's either trying to help crew with a racing group or buying a little boat.


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## Ulladh

https://www.libertysailingschool.com/ sailing on the Delaware River; strong tidal current, commercial shipping and gusty winds will make you a better sailor.

https://www.njsailingschool.com/ Upper Barnegat Bay sailing, better place to learn, more consistent winds, gentler tidal current, lots of recreational power and fishing boats.

Plan on 2021 I doubt if they are going to be doing much this year.

NJ Sailing School has rental/practice boats on Barnegat Bay. Less than 45 mins drive from Ben Franklin Bridge to Brick Township NJ.


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## capta

motoben said:


> I've actually got a copy of Royce's on the way! That's an interesting point about the small boat instead of courses. I was considering taking a course as a lower budget/lower commitment first step. Actually having a boat to practice (and fail) on instead of being a tourist at a sailing course also appeals to how I'm wired. And, I would very definitely start with a small boat. Well, looks like it's either trying to help crew with a racing group or buying a little boat.


I wouldn't jump right into racing without a good grasp of the terminology and at least a basic knowledge of sailing. Racing is a fine way to hone your skills, but a pretty high pressure situation to put yourself in as a total novice.
After I learned to sail dinghies I kinda fell into racing for 7 seasons. Fortunately I had a good skipper so we won 5 out of the 7 which definitely made it a lot more fun. Unfortunately, the racing left me with more experience in that aspect of sailing so my first big boat was a 49' TransPac racer with 23 bags of sails, coffee grinders and little creature comforts below. A truly ludicrous boat for a couple to cruise.
However, before we left for Hawaii, we had a ball tearing around San Francisco Bay with all our friends from the rock bands of the mid '60s.
A couple of guitars, drum sticks on the winches, Dungeness crab and San Francisco extra sour sourdough French bread for the munchies. Oh, for a time machine.....


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## outbound

As usual Capta is spot on. However, there’s dinghies and racing dinghies. Some racing dinghies are brutally fast. Require hiking out from the get go and very sensitive to trim with the absence of ballast. That means a lot of cold water dunks. A lot of time spent righting them and a lot of frustration. Pick something more forgiving. I learned on a cape dory typhoon. It was painted and the paint job was terrible. The trailer had no bearing buddies and was rusted. Still, I would just stop in irons or head up and flog when I screwed up. Avoided swims in cold New England waters. Ideal learning dinghy has a head sail, high righting moment, cheap and enough performance you can tell the difference between correct trim and just moving forward. Different between learning to ride motorcycles on a performance crotch rocket v sitting up and begging on a Honda or BMW. Or learning to ride horses on a well mannered saddle horse or a thorough bred.


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## eherlihy

motoben said:


> Hi all! I'm Ben and I live in the Philadelphia area of Pennsylvania, USA. I have never sailed, but it has been something that I've wanted to do for a number of years. I didn't exactly grow up on the water, but I've spent a fair bit of time kayaking/boating/fishing on freshwater and saltwater (inshore and offshore).
> 
> My one and only time on a sailboat was when I was a kid and was helping tow a very small catamaran behind a pontoon boat. My job was to sit on the bow of the catamaran and hold one end of the tow rope while my cousin held the other end on the pontoon. Naturally, after a bit of boredom set in, we engaged in a tug of war that ended abruptly when he yanked me clean off the catamaran while we were underway. Hopefully my future sailing experiences are as entertaining!
> 
> Anyway, seeing as I know next to nothing about sailing, I plan to just be a sponge for a while and soak up as much information as I can. One of my next steps is to take some sort of sailing lesson, so if anyone has any recommendations in my area I'd greatly appreciate it!


Sailing lessons are probably going to be hard to come by in the next year. You may have heard that there's this virus going around, and as a consequence, many schools are not operating...

That said, and this is coming from a sailing instructor, your best way to see if sailing is for *you *would be to take a short charter. Typically, a 3 hour charter would cost about $300 for 2 people. I know of a few such opportunities on "AirBnB Experiences" in Rhode Island.


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## Ulladh

It is probably OK to take a few dunks in Barnegat Bay, but not the Delaware River, currents and submerged obstructions can be deadly. The are several deaths each year between Chester and Trenton due to falling off boats or trying to swim.

Newcastle DE has a dinghy racing club using the waters behind the Pea Patch Island dike outside the shipping channel. http://www.newcastlesailingclub.org/ Slower tidal current and not as many submerged obstructions.


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## motoben

Wow! Lots of opinions and lots of things to research. Thanks a lot everybody!


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## JimMcGee

Ben, 
Sailors like to talk about sailing and we're generally a pretty friendly bunch. 

Memorial Day weekend will be a busy weekend and people will be re-connecting with friends after being locked up all winter. 

Try going down to one of the marinas in Forked River, NJ the following Saturday morning. Pick a marina where you see a lot of sailboats. Stroll down the docks and look at the boats and strike up conversations. Let people know you're interested in learning. I'll bet someone offers you a ride (I've done it). 

To be polite offer to grab sandwiches for everyone. For the cost of a trip to Jersey Mike's you'll get a day on the water, learn a bit about sailing and maybe even get some time at the helm. If you let it be known you're looking for a beginner boat, you'll find out about boats that aren't necessarily listed anywhere because they're inexpensive. 

Once you have a couple of sailing days under your belt I do recommend an ASA sailing school weekend that covers the basics. If you teach yourself, you may teach yourself bad habits. The school will give you a good foundation in the basics and confidence that would take a while to gain if you're on your own. 

We did a long weekend in Annapolis that included a two day sailing school and I always thought it was money well spent.

Best of luck,
Jim


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## JoCoSailor

motoben said:


> Well, looks like it's either trying to help crew with a racing group or buying a little boat.


Do both! I like the book "learn to sail in a weekend" used on AZ it should be cheap! Watch the youtube videos. Think about the wind every time you are outside. Where is it coming from? is it steady? How fast is blowing? Go out to a lake with no boats on it. Just stand and watch the waves no water. Soon you'll be able to "see" the wind.

Good luck


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## capta

JimMcGee said:


> Ben,
> Sailors like to talk about sailing and we're generally a pretty friendly bunch.
> 
> Memorial Day weekend will be a busy weekend and people will be re-connecting with friends after being locked up all winter.
> 
> Try going down to one of the marinas in Forked River, NJ the following Saturday morning. Pick a marina where you see a lot of sailboats. Stroll down the docks and look at the boats and strike up conversations. Let people know you're interested in learning. I'll bet someone offers you a ride (I've done it).
> 
> To be polite offer to grab sandwiches for everyone. For the cost of a trip to Jersey Mike's you'll get a day on the water, learn a bit about sailing and maybe even get some time at the helm. If you let it be known you're looking for a beginner boat, you'll find out about boats that aren't necessarily listed anywhere because they're inexpensive.
> 
> Once you have a couple of sailing days under your belt I do recommend an ASA sailing school weekend that covers the basics. If you teach yourself, you may teach yourself bad habits. The school will give you a good foundation in the basics and confidence that would take a while to gain if you're on your own.
> 
> We did a long weekend in Annapolis that included a two day sailing school and I always thought it was money well spent.
> 
> Best of luck,
> Jim


 Sounds like the perfect plan to catch or become an asymptomatic carrier of C-19. Wow, absolutely the exact opposite advice the medical professionals might give and exactly what our illustrious, though ill informed leader would tweet.
Sailing isn't going to be very easy for you if you haven't enough common sense to ignore this advice in the middle of a pandemic. A pandemic which has killed 303,000 people world wide and 87,000 of your countrymen. There are over 1 million active cases in the US with many in your area.
"Do you feel lucky, punk?"


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## chef2sail

Ok, when things are safe do both as no one is letting you on their boat right now.

I’m from the school of thought that racing is one of the best teachers. That was my route. Optimas, Hobie 16 then on keel boats. I was surrounded by many more experienced in the beginning, but after a few years graduated from rail meat to more responsible positions. On the boat there were many different people to teach .

The best place to learn sail trim is a racing boat. Best way to learn to read the water and wind shifts around bodies of land is a racing boat. Racing short distance navigation is a great teacher who principally can be applied to cruising or long distance traveling.

Learn about weather and wind by reading a meteorology book or two. Take at least the first ASA courses. But take them when you can apply what you learn. That will reenforce it. 

Boat sailing is easy. Boat sailing refined is layers of experiences built on each other. Every day out I still learn something despite sailing for 57 years. 

Most of all HAVE FUN and enjoy the experience. The thought of the cost will be moderated lol.
Good luck and keep us advised.


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## JimMcGee

capta said:


> Sounds like the perfect plan to catch or become an asymptomatic carrier of C-19. Wow, absolutely the exact opposite advice the medical professionals might give and exactly what our illustrious, though ill informed leader would tweet.
> Sailing isn't going to be very easy for you if you haven't enough common sense to ignore this advice in the middle of a pandemic. A pandemic which has killed 303,000 people world wide and 87,000 of your countrymen. There are over 1 million active cases in the US with many in your area.
> "Do you feel lucky, punk?"


Oh for f#ck sake, really?

Everyone here goes out with a mask or a buff on. Retail stores are open. If you wash your hands, wear a mask and maintain reasonable distance your chances of getting the virus are low. They are even lower if you are outdoors. Recent studies done on restaurant air flow showed how the virus was spread in closed spaces. Just opening a window dramatically lowered the risk of spread. In outdoor restaurants with reasonable distancing the threat was near zero.

So if you're talking to someone in the cockpit of their boat from a dock, or you're six feet away from them while sailing with 10 knots of wind blowing across the cockpit you're NOT going to die.

New Jersey is opening for Memorial Day weekend. I can tell you there will be a LOT worse behavior. That is a REAL risk and obviously puts $$ ahead of safety.

So excuse me for not thinking I had to tell an adult that if he visits a marina he should wash his hands and wear a mask. These days that's assumed.

While life is going to be different for a while it's not a a binary choice between being hermit or dying if you so much as look at another person.

Rant over...


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## snash1970

motoben said:


> Hi all! I'm Ben and I live in the Philadelphia area of Pennsylvania, USA. I have never sailed, but it has been something that I've wanted to do for a number of years. I didn't exactly grow up on the water, but I've spent a fair bit of time kayaking/boating/fishing on freshwater and saltwater (inshore and offshore).
> 
> My one and only time on a sailboat was when I was a kid and was helping tow a very small catamaran behind a pontoon boat. My job was to sit on the bow of the catamaran and hold one end of the tow rope while my cousin held the other end on the pontoon. Naturally, after a bit of boredom set in, we engaged in a tug of war that ended abruptly when he yanked me clean off the catamaran while we were underway. Hopefully my future sailing experiences are as entertaining!
> 
> Anyway, seeing as I know next to nothing about sailing, I plan to just be a sponge for a while and soak up as much information as I can. One of my next steps is to take some sort of sailing lesson, so if anyone has any recommendations in my area I'd greatly appreciate it!


You might want to try Nockamixon State Park in Bucks county PA. They have an active sailing club and a quieter lake (horsepower restricted -- so 75% sailboats) is a good place to learn. https://www.nockamixonsailclub.org/


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## capta

JimMcGee said:


> Oh for f#ck sake, really?
> 
> And of course, you've got your ppes on as you walk the dock on the way to the boat, and are practicing safe distancing.
> 
> But y'll stop here or there for a beer, sliding your mask aside and gladly accepting a cool one from a dockside friend who has just who just wiped the lip with his hand.
> Then its onboard where the masks make communicating very difficult. And social distancing soon follows in the flurry of activity.
> Then it's the victory dock walk, high fives and plenty more cold ones, with the occasional hug. Of the loser's walk, a bit less boisterous, but friendly and the calls of
> "you'll get em next time..." echo down the dock.
> A perfect day on the water and absolutely no way you will possibly contaminate any of your family and friends from your cautions that bat.
> Oh wait, you nee gas. Where was that mast> Oh yeah, you left aboard.
> 
> Oh well I'll just be in and out, no biggie.
> And so a lovely day on the water become a nightmare for a family.
> Farfetched perhaps, but all too likely todady and for the foresseabe future.


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## JimMcGee

capta said:


> And of course, you've got your ppes on as you walk the dock on the way to the boat, and are practicing safe distancing.


Capta, *yes that is the point you're missing*.

I don't know what it's like where you are, but around here everyone is required to were one of these










or one of these










whenever you go into a store or public space.

Once you're out on the boat with the breeze blowing and you're four to six feet away from other people in the cockpit even this precaution may not be necessary based on what we're hearing from medical professionals. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to lower a mask to take a sip of my Coke.



capta said:


> Then it's the victory dock walk, high fives and plenty more cold ones, with the occasional hug.


Really???? you were hugging and high fiving total strangers before the shut down?

These days it's more like just saying thanks and maybe an elbow bump. Let's get into the real world here...

BTW, my buddy is Director of Maintenance at the local hospital. Making sure both staff and patients stay safe is his job. We've had some long talks about what is "reasonable & safe".

Had you just said "maybe wait a few weeks" I wouldn't have had a problem with your response. But the drama...


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## PhilCarlson

Bottom line: *get on a boat*! Lots of advice above to accomplish that but it is the necessary next step.

A quick and fun way to recieve an orientation is the ASA First Sail tutorial. Takes about 20 minutes, is super basic, and will give you a first step so you know something when you step on board. I've suggested it to "never sailed before guests" who found it helpful.

https://asa.com/online-sailing-course/


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## JoCoSailor

PhilCarlson said:


> Bottom line: *get on a boat*! Lots of advice above to accomplish that but it is the necessary next step.
> 
> A quick and fun way to recieve an orientation is the ASA First Sail tutorial. Takes about 20 minutes, is super basic, and will give you a first step so you know something when you step on board. I've suggested it to "never sailed before guests" who found it helpful.
> 
> https://asa.com/online-sailing-course/


That is good.....OP might as well check out nautic ed too....the free courses are little more advanced https://www.nauticed.org/two-free-sailing-courses


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## Smasome

Look around and see if you can round up a Sunfish. I managed to find one for free that someone just wanted out of the shed at their lake house. You can throw it in the back of a truck or even car top it if you have someone to help you load and unload. I knew absolutely nothing about sailing and had a blast the first time I ever put it on the water.


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## jephotog

In a different world (non-pandemic), I would suggest joining a sailing club. One that is ASA certified and has boats for rent. Usually for about $1000 or less, you can join and get 2 ratings ASA 101 & 103 then start sailing and renting boats up to 30 feet. You can gather friends or family or even strangers to contribute to the cost of boat rental.

The good thing with a club is you will learn things the right way from the first time out, develop good habits and call things by the right name, you might have a number of different boats to choose from and there may be club activities that would expose you to new sailing opportunities.

Once you have a sailing season under your belt the club may become obsolete as you may find opportunities to sail for free or buy your own boat. Given today's climate, you would likely be more successful buying a small trailerable sailboat, studying then hiring an instructor for half a day or as needed.


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## motoben

PhilCarlson said:


> Bottom line: *get on a boat*! Lots of advice above to accomplish that but it is the necessary next step.
> 
> A quick and fun way to recieve an orientation is the ASA First Sail tutorial. Takes about 20 minutes, is super basic, and will give you a first step so you know something when you step on board. I've suggested it to "never sailed before guests" who found it helpful.
> 
> asa.com/online-sailing-course/


I have already taken that ASA course! Pretty brief, but enough to get a flavor of what sailing entails.



JoCoSailor said:


> That is good.....OP might as well check out nautic ed too....the free courses are little more advanced
> nauticed.org/two-free-sailing-courses


I'll check those courses out too!



jephotog said:


> In a different world (non-pandemic), I would suggest joining a sailing club. One that is ASA certified and has boats for rent. Usually for about $1000 or less, you can join and get 2 ratings ASA 101 & 103 then start sailing and renting boats up to 30 feet. You can gather friends or family or even strangers to contribute to the cost of boat rental.
> 
> The good thing with a club is you will learn things the right way from the first time out, develop good habits and call things by the right name, you might have a number of different boats to choose from and there may be club activities that would expose you to new sailing opportunities.
> 
> Once you have a sailing season under your belt the club may become obsolete as you may find opportunities to sail for free or buy your own boat. Given today's climate, you would likely be more successful buying a small trailerable sailboat, studying then hiring an instructor for half a day or as needed.


That sounds like a pretty reasonable approach to me. I plan to do some reading and studying on my own to at least get a handle on the concepts first. The next step would very likely be buying a little boat on which I could try to put some of those concepts into practice (and to find out how big of a disconnect there is between book learnin' and the real world) And then, pandemic-permitting, I'd probably try to get a lesson or join a club.

Again, thanks everybody for all of the suggestions and links to various courses, marinas, sailing clubs, etc!


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## JamesLD

jephotog said:


> In a different world (non-pandemic), I would suggest joining a sailing club. One that is ASA certified and has boats for rent. Usually for about $1000 or less, you can join and get 2 ratings ASA 101 & 103 then start sailing and renting boats up to 30 feet. You can gather friends or family or even strangers to contribute to the cost of boat rental.
> 
> The good thing with a club is you will learn things the right way from the first time out, develop good habits and call things by the right name, you might have a number of different boats to choose from and there may be club activities that would expose you to new sailing opportunities.
> 
> Once you have a sailing season under your belt the club may become obsolete as you may find opportunities to sail for free or buy your own boat. Given today's climate, you would likely be more successful buying a small trailerable sailboat, studying then hiring an instructor for half a day or as needed.


I really like Jordan's approach above! This approach will get you to understand the fundamentals and get inexpensive access to sailboats to use. 

If you can't find a club, at least take an ASA 101 course to learn the basics. Afterwards, buy a small, inexpensive sailboat or rent (charter) a small boat.

Jordan, I see you have a WWP14!  I have had a '98 WWP15 since 2010. Really love this little boat. Going to be a little sad when I sell her this Summer to buy a much larger boat.

Jim


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## Anchor1800

motoben said:


> Thanks, I'll look into racing groups in the area. I get the feeling that there are a lot on-the-water things to learn beyond what one can pick up via Youtube, books, online courses, etc.





motoben said:


> I have already taken that ASA course! Pretty brief, but enough to get a flavor of what sailing entails.
> 
> I'll check those courses out too!
> 
> That sounds like a pretty reasonable approach to me. I plan to do some reading and studying on my own to at least get a handle on the concepts first. The next step would very likely be buying a little boat on which I could try to put some of those concepts into practice (and to find out how big of a disconnect there is between book learnin' and the real world) And then, pandemic-permitting, I'd probably try to get a lesson or join a club.
> 
> Again, thanks everybody for all of the suggestions and links to various courses, marinas, sailing clubs, etc!


Nothing beats getting water under your keel. I am in Philadelphia and race weekly with Liberty Sailing Club (libertysailing.org). The club has a fleet of J-27s which are great to learn on, and a membership that is willing to teach. They keep their fleet at Pier 5, right next to Cherry Street Pier. They have programmed sailing 5 days a week, with racing twice a week, and social sailing (cruising) three days a week. In full disclosure I am a board member of the club, so please feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions.

This season everything has changed compared to normal years. We are still locked down, and waiting until it is safe to open (actually have a board meeting tonight to discuss). You do not need to come to one of the official open houses to meet us, if you let us know ahead of time we can usually get you out on the water to experience what we have to offer outside of an open house.

I sail on the Delaware all the time and want to reiterate what others have said. Sailing on the Delaware presents some unique issues, mainly with strong currents, commercial traffic, and unique chop we get under certain conditions.

Look forward to seeing you on the water.


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## jephotog

JamesLD said:


> I really like Jordan's approach above! This approach will get you to understand the fundamentals and get inexpensive access to sailboats to use.
> 
> If you can't find a club, at least take an ASA 101 course to learn the basics. Afterwards, buy a small, inexpensive sailboat or rent (charter) a small boat.
> 
> Jordan, I see you have a WWP14!  I have had a '98 WWP15 since 2010. Really love this little boat. Going to be a little sad when I sell her this Summer to buy a much larger boat.
> 
> Jim


Bought mine sailed it a few times then moved and got busy with bigger boats 32-42 ft. One summer redid the P14 stem to stern all 14 feet made me realize it was too small for me to sleep aboard, so bought a P19.

What do you plan on upgrading to?


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## motoben

Anchor1800 said:


> Nothing beats getting water under your keel. I am in Philadelphia and race weekly with Liberty Sailing Club (libertysailing.org). The club has a fleet of J-27s which are great to learn on, and a membership that is willing to teach. They keep their fleet at Pier 5, right next to Cherry Street Pier. They have programmed sailing 5 days a week, with racing twice a week, and social sailing (cruising) three days a week. In full disclosure I am a board member of the club, so please feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions.
> 
> This season everything has changed compared to normal years. We are still locked down, and waiting until it is safe to open (actually have a board meeting tonight to discuss). You do not need to come to one of the official open houses to meet us, if you let us know ahead of time we can usually get you out on the water to experience what we have to offer outside of an open house.
> 
> I sail on the Delaware all the time and want to reiterate what others have said. Sailing on the Delaware presents some unique issues, mainly with strong currents, commercial traffic, and unique chop we get under certain conditions.
> 
> Look forward to seeing you on the water.


Thanks, I'll check that club out and may try to meet up once things settle down a bit from the pandemic.

Does anyone have any recommendations on a spot to *safely* mess around on a small sailboat in the area? I've been sufficiently steered away from the Delaware river as a location to learn-by-doing on my own. I'm actually a recent transplant to Norristown (near, but not exactly Philadelphia) and not terribly familiar with the area. Are there bodies of water in the area that would be better for my inexperienced self to go mess around on (provided I do end up actually buying a boat)?


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## TakeFive

motoben said:


> ...Does anyone have any recommendations on a spot to *safely* mess around on a small sailboat in the area?**I've been sufficiently steered away from the Delaware river as a location to learn-by-doing on my own.**I'm actually a recent transplant to Norristown (near, but not exactly Philadelphia) and not terribly familiar with the area.**Are there bodies of water in the area that would be better for my inexperienced self to go mess around on (provided I do end up actually buying a boat)?


First, welcome to Sailnet! It's always great to have new blood here, especially neighbors from the Philly area.

Due to the pandemic, this is probably not a good year to do sailing school. But if you've done one or two online courses to learn the points of sail, and pick up a book or two to have as a handy reference, this should be a good year to pick up a used sailing dinghy (preferably with a trailer) and head to protected waters to learn on your own. In your situation I'd pick up a used Sunfish or clone (Aqua Finn, Phantom, Scorpion, etc.). You might consider a Laser or similar, but they are a little less stable. I'm not sure your personal situation, specifically whether you'd be sailing solo or with a friend, and you should take that into account in boat selection. A Sunfish can be very uncomfortable for two, but the Phantom (which I have) has some minor tweaks that make it much more comfortable for two (though still tight, so you need to be very good friends). If you'll sail with a partner frequently, I'd go with a Flying Scot or one of a number of similar small sloops.

I picked up my 1985 Phantom in 2000 for $700, including a very old (1963) but fully functional trailer. It seemed like a lot of money at the time (sellers refused to come down in price), but in retrospect it was a HUGE BARGAIN. Considering inflation, I would hope you could pick up a used dinghy with trailer for under $1500. Just make sure it has all the parts (rudder/tiller, dagger board, mast, boom, sail), because replacing any one of these components is costly enough to make the boat virtually worthless if it is missing them.

I'd check Craigslist frequently for used boats with trailers. Get familiar with different designs and clones by looking online at user groups for Sunfish, Laser, Flying Scots, etc.

For places to learn on your own, you have several very good options that are easily reachable from Norristown.

Nockamixon is great for beginners (already mentioned), though in my one time there the winds seemed to be swirly due the shape of the lake and tree line. But it's definitely a safe place, and there will probably be enough other sailors around to yell questions to if you need help (especially if the sailing school is closed). It would be a really good place to go out your first time. Be sure to buy the required sticker for your boat.

Marsh Lake is another. Smaller than Nockamixon. I've never sailed there but I drove through the area a few times to eat lunch, since I worked nearby for a couple of years.

Both of these lakes have sailing schools (and might also rent to you without lessons), but not sure they'll operate this year. I can tell you that it is virtually impossible for two or more to socially distance on sailing dinghies, and with the regulations in place right now in most states, it may actually be illegal to have two people on any boat who are not in the same household. IMO, walking the docks looking for a ride is out of the question this year, no matter how big the boat.

If you go this route with your own boat and trailer, it opens up a huge number of other options as you build confidence. We sailed our Phantom on Lake Wallenpaupack every year on vacation for 15 years. It's 14 miles long and you can sail ALL DAY going from one end to the other. You can also head down to Maryland, using the public ramps at Fredricktown (Sassafras River) or Elk Neck State Park (Elk River). We've done both of those. You can head up to New Jersey and Round Valley or Spruce Run Reservoir (both have dinghy sailing and competitions). We never did that because we moved away from NJ before we had a chance. Or, as already mentioned, head over to the Jersey Shore and drop the boat in at Barnegat Bay (though it can get VERY choppy in places).

We sailed our Phantom for 10 years before we decided to move up to larger cruising sailboats on the Delaware River and Chesapeake Bay. We haven't used the Phantom for a couple of years, but will probably never sell it because it's worth far more to us than anyone could pay us for it.


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## TakeFive

Might be worth a look for $750. Make sure it has all needed parts. Ask for pictures of everything before going to look. Looks like it doesn't have a trailer, so you'd need a large pickup truck or very sturdy roof rack. I'm not a fan of the roof thing because these boats can be heavy and making a sudden stop in your car can be a catastrophe. Also ask for the HIN, because from that you can figure out what year it was manufactured.

https://southjersey.craigslist.org/boa/d/wilmington-sunfish/7119357670.html


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## jephotog

People keep suggesting a sunfish for a first boat. I am going to suggest something different. My first sailboat was a sunfish. I had a trailer but it was not wet launchable I had to haul it on and off the tall trailer every time I wanted to go sailing. It did not get used much. I have a friend who has a sunfish, she is trying to get rid of, she does not like it wants to trade it in for an 8 foot dinghy she can sit in. A sunfish you sit on with your feet in a well.

I would suggest a 12-19 foot open boat as your first boat. You could sit in it and be more comfortable when sailing, you will more likely be dry when sailing. The larger boat would allow you to carry spare clothing, a cooler with lunch and drinks, down the road you could also take a friend or family member.

If I lived on a lake and had a dock i would add a sunfish to my quiver of boats but would not choose it as my first boat.


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## SHNOOL

I've sailed Nockamixon, and Wallenpaupack, and I too would have a different suggestion for a first boat. I'd suggest a keelboat, small is fine. They are less likely to flip or fill the cockpit with water.

TakeFive is 100% on Nockamixon, Haycock mountain screws the winds terrible there, but it is a pretty easy lake to learn on, and the sailors there are pretty great.


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## motoben

So I'll definitely check out Nockamixon, and it's less than an hour from my house!

As far as a boat, the consensus seems pretty clear that I should get a Sunfish, but also definitely not a Sunfish. :laugher I'm actually not married to a particular style or type of boat, largely because I don't really even know what I'm looking at yet (beyond something along the lines of "Well...that's a pretty boat"). I learned to ride a motorcycle on a cheap, durable, rough around the edges bike and I think I'd prefer to take that same approach with a first boat if possible. My thinking is that if I get into an inexpensive boat, I can sell it when I outgrow it or if I decide I'm not too keen on sailing after all. Even if I lose a bit on the sale I wouldn't be out much. Also, I expect that in all reality I'll be the only one in the boat most if not all of the time. Perhaps if I take to sailing (remember I've never done it at all) and really enjoy it, then I'd upgrade/upsize.


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## JamesLD

SHNOOL said:


> I've sailed Nockamixon, and Wallenpaupack, and I too would have a different suggestion for a first boat. I'd suggest a keelboat, small is fine. They are less likely to flip or fill the cockpit with water.


I agree with the above. A small boat with a swinging keel or centerboard would be much more comfortable if you plan on spending a morning, an afternoon, or the whole day on the boat.

Nothing wrong with a boat with a cuddy as well. Gives you a place to store stuff. Just make sure that when you are sailing, you have the cabin area close so that there is less of a chance of swamping the boat if you get water in the cockpit.

Jim


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## motoben

SHNOOL said:


> I've sailed Nockamixon, and Wallenpaupack, and I too would have a different suggestion for a first boat. I'd suggest a keelboat, small is fine. They are less likely to flip or fill the cockpit with water.
> 
> TakeFive is 100% on Nockamixon, Haycock mountain screws the winds terrible there, but it is a pretty easy lake to learn on, and the sailors there are pretty great.





JamesLD said:


> I agree with the above. A small boat with a swinging keel or centerboard would be much more comfortable if you plan on spending a morning, an afternoon, or the whole day on the boat.
> 
> Nothing wrong with a boat with a cuddy as well. Gives you a place to store stuff. Just make sure that when you are sailing, you have the cabin area close so that there is less of a chance of swamping the boat if you get water in the cockpit.
> 
> Jim


I was under the impression that a keelboat was (in the most basic terms) a sailboat with a fixed keel (maybe weighted?). Conversely a centerboard is a boat with a pivoting "keel" that swings fore/aft into a cavity in the hull, right? Am I wildly confused (very likely) or are you guys recommending different things?


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## JamesLD

I hope that we are not being loosy-goosy with the terms?

Bigger boats will likely have a fixed keel that is permanently bolted to the hull of the boat

Smaller boats often have a swing keel, often called a centerboard, that pivots into a cavity in the hull. (That said there are a few large sailboats that came with a centerboard option.)

Some even smaller boats will have a dagger board that can be inserted by hand.

All of the boards help keep the boat from blowing sideways in the wind. 

The advantage of most swing keel, over a dagger board, is that the swing keel is also weighted. As an example of my WWP15, the dry weight of the boat is only 475 lbs, yet the swing keel weighs 80 lbs. The weight of the swing keel helps keep the boat upright. The swing keel is very easy to lower or raise, as the rope passes through a couple of pulleys.

Jim


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## TakeFive

SHNOOL said:


> I've sailed Nockamixon, and Wallenpaupack, and I too would have a different suggestion for a first boat. I'd suggest a keelboat, small is fine. They are less likely to flip or fill the cockpit with water.
> 
> TakeFive is 100% on Nockamixon, Haycock mountain screws the winds terrible there, but it is a pretty easy lake to learn on, and the sailors there are pretty great.


Hey SCHNOOL, welcome back! I hadn't realized that you moved to Virginia. I guess at your new location you no longer have to sail uphill? 

My recommendation of a Sunfish (or similar) was based on several advantages:

Easy to find
Cheap to buy
Big user base with lots of support
Easy to transport - by trailer (preferably) or on car top if needed
Easy to rig (lateen rig)
Positive buoyancy
Easy to sell

Since OP admits he doesn't know anything, and isn't even sure he'll want to stick with it, I figured it's the safest bet in lieu of lessons.

I have no objections to him going larger, but for a guy who wants to learn on his own (due to potential unavailability of lessons this year), it seemed like the least expensive and least risky way to get on the water, with an easy out if he doesn't like it.

For those who are suggesting larger boats or keel boats, let's see some suggestions of actual boats for him to buy. But let's not convince him to get a cheap project boat - the guy wants to sail, not spend a couple years refitting.


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## JoCoSailor

motoben said:


> So I'll definitely check out Nockamixon, and it's less than an hour from my house!
> 
> As far as a boat, the consensus seems pretty clear that I should get a Sunfish, but also definitely not a Sunfish. :laugher I'm actually not married to a particular style or type of boat, largely because I don't really even know what I'm looking at yet (beyond something along the lines of "Well...that's a pretty boat"). I learned to ride a motorcycle on a cheap, durable, rough around the edges bike and I think I'd prefer to take that same approach with a first boat if possible. My thinking is that if I get into an inexpensive boat, I can sell it when I outgrow it or if I decide I'm not too keen on sailing after all. Even if I lose a bit on the sale I wouldn't be out much. Also, I expect that in all reality I'll be the only one in the boat most if not all of the time. Perhaps if I take to sailing (remember I've never done it at all) and really enjoy it, then I'd upgrade/upsize.


motoben. I see you are taking opinion overload in stride. (makes me think you'll be a good sailor) This thread reminds too much of when I bought my boat. One difference. I had spent the summer learning to sail with a local club. Every member was telling me to buy a boat like theirs or wanted to sell me their's so they could upgrade. I went with my gut and never regretted it.

That said, I have to put in my 2 cents. Don't even look at a boat with 2 sails! If you are doing this by your self. One sail is all your going to be able to handle. Sure you don't have to have both sails out. But, most are designed to sail with both. IMO, learning to sail in an unbalanced boat will be overly frustrating and could ruin the entire experience.

As I was typing this I thought of one thing you have to learn. It is how to get the boating going. This video should help





Yes, this video makes me a liar. When it comes to sailing a boat with only one of two sails up, but he a very experienced sailor. And the method works just the same with a single sail.

Best of luck to you.


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## JamesLD

TakeFive said:


> For those who are suggesting larger boats or keel boats, let's see some suggestions of actual boats for him to buy. But let's not convince him to get a cheap project boat - the guy wants to sail, not spend a couple years refitting.


Actual boat to buy? Well, of course my WWP15! :laugher:laugher Just kidding! The boat one buys should be SPECIFIC to their own needs/wants. I fully agree with the thought on a project boat. Nothing to take the fun out of a new adventure than to spend your time working on a boat, rather than actually sailing it!

I don't think we know enough about the OP's wants/needs to recommend a boat. Budget? Where he intends to use it? How he intends to use it? Is boat storage an issue? Is trailering (or storage) an issue? Towing should not be much of an issue as most small boat with their trailers are still under 1,000 lbs (including my WWP15 on the trailer).

If I were in the OP's shoes, I would seriously be looking at sailing clubs, even if I had to wait a little bit to get out on the water. I still think that learning the basics in an ASA 101 course is important, as it's much safer (and fun) to learn the basics and build upon those rather than develop bad habits early.

I think if the OP is thinking about buying a boat, the other running thread is a good one to read.

Jim


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## TakeFive

JamesLD said:


> ...I think if the OP is thinking about buying a boat, the other running thread is a good one to read...


While every thread is good to read, I think motoben is in a totally different situation from that thread. The poster there has family who have sailed, and wants to go out 2-3 nights at a time. He's looking at MUCH bigger boats, often with inboard diesels, and in his $1500 price range he's going to end up with years of project work before he has something that's safe to sail.

Maybe I've "sized up" motoben incorrectly, but I see him as a guy who wants to get out this spring on very protected waters to see if he likes it and see what he can learn on his own. He doesn't have family support to teach him, and doesn't want to wait another year until clubs and sailing schools are fully operational. I'd urge him to stay small and find a well known boat that will be easy/cheap to buy and (eventually) sell. I'd also strongly encourage a boat with only one sail. A sloop will be more complication than he can handle singlehanded.


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## JamesLD

Rick,

The gist of the other thread that I linked was not have someone in the family teach you to sail, it is ideas on buying a trailer sailboat.

That thread has hints on what to look for when buying a low cost trailer/sailboat.

Of course anyone is free to buy any boat they want, but I'm not making any recommendations until the questions (particularly how the boat will be used and where) in my earlier post (#39) have been addressed.

Jim


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## JoCoSailor

JamesLD said:


> Rick,
> 
> The gist of the other thread that I linked was not have someone in the family teach you to sail, it is ideas on buying a trailer sailboat.
> 
> That thread has hints on what to look for when buying a low cost trailer/sailboat.
> 
> Of course anyone is free to buy any boat they want, but I'm not making any recommendations until the questions (particularly how the boat will be used and where) in my earlier post (#39) have been addressed.
> 
> Jim





motoben said:


> So I'll definitely check out Nockamixon, and it's less than an hour from my house!
> 
> <Cliped> . I learned to ride a motorcycle on a cheap, durable, rough around the edges bike and I think I'd prefer to take that same approach with a first boat if possible. My thinking is that if I get into an inexpensive boat, I can sell it when I outgrow it or if I decide I'm not too keen on sailing after all. Even if I lose a bit on the sale I wouldn't be out much. Also, I expect that in all reality I'll be the only one in the boat most if not all of the time. Perhaps if I take to sailing (remember I've never done it at all) and really enjoy it, then I'd upgrade/upsize.


Jim, Frist I agree. The parts relating to trailers in the other thread would be a great read for motoben. Other than that I have to agree with TakeFive. It seems clear to me. Motobe wants to get out in protected waters. Teach himself how to sail, and found out if he even likes it or not.

I help our local club teach beginners and those that move on sloops. So I've seen dozens of folks reactions to rigging and trying to sail for the first time. I can't think of a faster way to get turned off to sailing. Than getting a boat you can't get rigged, off the trailer & tied up so you can put the car away, easily get on it, then can't get to go, can't keeping it going, or it back to shore.


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## SHNOOL

TakeFive, what did I win? 16 foot keelboat, for under $2k, and nobody can question the quality of it.

https://poconos.craigslist.org/boa/d/sterling-sailboat-with-trailer-1978-com/7128865314.html

yeah you'll need an outboard.
too perfect, decent outboard cheap too
https://allentown.craigslist.org/boa/d/new-ringgold-for-sale-johnson-2hp/7126713360.html


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## motoben

JamesLD said:


> Actual boat to buy? Well, of course my WWP15! :laugher:laugher Just kidding! The boat one buys should be SPECIFIC to their own needs/wants. I fully agree with the thought on a project boat. Nothing to take the fun out of a new adventure than to spend your time working on a boat, rather than actually sailing it!
> 
> I don't think we know enough about the OP's wants/needs to recommend a boat. Budget? Where he intends to use it? How he intends to use it? Is boat storage an issue? Is trailering (or storage) an issue? Towing should not be much of an issue as most small boat with their trailers are still under 1,000 lbs (including my WWP15 on the trailer).
> 
> If I were in the OP's shoes, I would seriously be looking at sailing clubs, even if I had to wait a little bit to get out on the water. I still think that learning the basics in an ASA 101 course is important, as it's much safer (and fun) to learn the basics and build upon those rather than develop bad habits early.
> 
> I think if the OP is thinking about buying a boat, the other running thread is a good one to read.
> 
> Jim



Budget: I'd like to spend in the ballpark of $2000
Where: Probably freshwater lakes and such for now. I would like to try out some saltwater (after I've developed some competency), though I wouldn't be too heartbroken if that necessitated a different boat.
How: I expect to be the only one aboard the vast majority of the time. I could possibly see taking my girlfriend out once I have some confidence that I won't drown us both. If I find that I do really enjoy sailing, I'd likely upgrade to something that more fit my sailing plans and was less a learner boat.
Storage: Boat storage shouldn't be too big of an issue for something in the 15 foot range
Trailering: I have a Tacoma that is up to the task of towing ~1000 lb. I will say, however, that the car top-ability of a Sunfish is pretty appealing.

I'll definitely check out some sailing clubs and will likely take a class once things settle down a bit from the pandemic. For now I'm just trying to learn what I can about sailing and am not immediately ready to buy a boat, though I can certainly see that happening in the not too distant future.



TakeFive said:


> While every thread is good to read, I think motoben is in a totally different situation from that thread. The poster there has family who have sailed, and wants to go out 2-3 nights at a time. He's looking at MUCH bigger boats, often with inboard diesels, and in his $1500 price range he's going to end up with years of project work before he has something that's safe to sail.
> 
> Maybe I've "sized up" motoben incorrectly, but I see him as a guy who wants to get out this spring on very protected waters to see if he likes it and see what he can learn on his own. He doesn't have family support to teach him, and doesn't want to wait another year until clubs and sailing schools are fully operational. I'd urge him to stay small and find a well known boat that will be easy/cheap to buy and (eventually) sell. I'd also strongly encourage a boat with only one sail. A sloop will be more complication than he can handle singlehanded.


TakeFive, your appraisal of my situation seems pretty spot on. And I'm on board with avoiding a project boat as I'd much rather try my hand at sailing than spend months working on a boat.



JoCoSailor said:


> Jim, Frist I agree. The parts relating to trailers in the other thread would be a great read for motoben. Other than that I have to agree with TakeFive. It seems clear to me. Motobe wants to get out in protected waters. Teach himself how to sail, and found out if he even likes it or not.
> 
> I help our local club teach beginners and those that move on sloops. So I've seen dozens of folks reactions to rigging and trying to sail for the first time. I can't think of a faster way to get turned off to sailing. Than getting a boat you can't get rigged, off the trailer & tied up so you can put the car away, easily get on it, then can't get to go, can't keeping it going, or it back to shore.


I'm definitely biasing my boat research towards those that are cheap, simple, durable, and with novice friendly handling.

So it sounds like single sail is the way to go. What boats would fit this and the other criteria above?


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## motoben

SHNOOL said:


> TakeFive, what did I win? 16 foot keelboat, for under $2k, and nobody can question the quality of it.
> 
> https://poconos.craigslist.org/boa/d/sterling-sailboat-with-trailer-1978-com/7128865314.html
> 
> yeah you'll need an outboard.
> too perfect, decent outboard cheap too
> https://allentown.craigslist.org/boa/d/new-ringgold-for-sale-johnson-2hp/7126713360.html


That fits the bill for price and location, but it seems like more boat than what I might want for now. Thoughts?


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## SHNOOL

My money would be on this then...
https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/boa/d/berwyn-force-5-sail-boat-for-sail-with/7119495966.html except he's about $1000 to high.

Or this is about the best deal you could possibly get on a sunfish-like boat. TakeFive's fav:
https://scranton.craigslist.org/boa/d/harveys-lake-phantom-sail-boat/7127126457.html


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## JoCoSailor

SHNOOL said:


> My money would be on this then...
> https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/boa/d/berwyn-force-5-sail-boat-for-sail-with/7119495966.html except he's about $1000 to high.
> 
> Or this is about the best deal you could possibly get on a sunfish-like boat. TakeFive's fav:
> https://scranton.craigslist.org/boa/d/harveys-lake-phantom-sail-boat/7127126457.html


A force 5 for a beginner? Teaching himself, really?


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## JoCoSailor

motoben said:


> That fits the bill for price and location, but it seems like more boat than what I might want for now. Thoughts?


It going to be tough to beat a sunfish for you. They have sold more than other sailboats. They are still making them. You can get parts, sails, rigging cheaper than most any other boat. There's dozen if not hundreds of youtube videos. About rigging, launching, sailing, righting them. They are fun to sail. I borrow or rent one to race in when I can't get crew. Our club founder (77 years old +/-, USA us-1 class champ) just trade for one B/C he could no longer sail his boat in anything other than very light winds.....


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## TakeFive

SHNOOL said:


> My money would be on this then...
> https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/boa/d/berwyn-force-5-sail-boat-for-sail-with/7119495966.html except he's about $1000 to high.
> 
> Or this is about the best deal you could possibly get on a sunfish-like boat. TakeFive's fav:
> https://scranton.craigslist.org/boa/d/harveys-lake-phantom-sail-boat/7127126457.html


That Force 5 has been re-listed several times. As Shnool said, the price is way too high.

I would give a good look at that Phantom. The molded, enlarged cockpit and screw-less construction makes for a much more comfortable boat than the Sunfish with fewer opportunities for lacerations of your skin. The hull looks pretty dirty in the pictures, but some 2000 grit wet sanding followed by compound and wax could have the deck looking a lot better. Make sure all hardware is there. I think it can use a Sunfish mast and sails if you need to replace (though the Phantom sail is a little larger). If the mast is black anodized finish, then it's original Phantom. Hull alone should be about 90 pounds. If it's a lot heavier than that, then interior foam may be waterlogged. Check that the gooseneck is intact. Get the guy to rig it for you in his yard. For $250 it's hard to beat.

Here's a video I did a few years back:




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10205133338001843


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## snash1970

motoben said:


> Budget: I'd like to spend in the ballpark of $2000
> Where: Probably freshwater lakes and such for now. I would like to try out some saltwater (after I've developed some competency), though I wouldn't be too heartbroken if that necessitated a different boat.
> How: I expect to be the only one aboard the vast majority of the time. I could possibly see taking my girlfriend out once I have some confidence that I won't drown us both. If I find that I do really enjoy sailing, I'd likely upgrade to something that more fit my sailing plans and was less a learner boat.
> Storage: Boat storage shouldn't be too big of an issue for something in the 15 foot range
> Trailering: I have a Tacoma that is up to the task of towing ~1000 lb. I will say, however, that the car top-ability of a Sunfish is pretty appealing.
> 
> I'll definitely check out some sailing clubs and will likely take a class once things settle down a bit from the pandemic. For now I'm just trying to learn what I can about sailing and am not immediately ready to buy a boat, though I can certainly see that happening in the not too distant future.


There is a difference between a "sit-on-top" boat and a boat you can sit in--with proper seats. Most people can't spend more than an hour or two sitting on a boat like a Sunfish--no seat back, nowhere to move or stretch out. You can't pack a cooler and take more than a "small" guest.

There are a lot of simple to rig and use daysailers from O'Day, Catalina, Precision, American Sail, and many others in the 15' and <$2000 price range.

Lastly, if you want a good feel for sailing, you will want a boat with a small jib. It adds important dimensions (several) not available on something like a Sunfish.


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## JamesLD

motoben said:


> Budget: I'd like to spend in the ballpark of $2000
> Where: Probably freshwater lakes and such for now. I would like to try out some saltwater (after I've developed some competency), though I wouldn't be too heartbroken if that necessitated a different boat.
> _I have not yet sailed there, but my understanding is that the upper Chesapeake Bay can be great water for some smaller boats. I know that at one time, there had been a rendezvous of Potter Yachters, launching from the Bohemian River. I had hoped to join them but had another engagement _
> 
> How: I expect to be the only one aboard the vast majority of the time. I could possibly see taking my girlfriend out once I have some confidence that I won't drown us both. If I find that I do really enjoy sailing, I'd likely upgrade to something that more fit my sailing plans and was less a learner boat.
> _You definitely don't want to take a girlfriend or spouse out with you until you know what you are doing. Otherwise, it likely will be the last time! _
> 
> Storage: Boat storage shouldn't be too big of an issue for something in the 15 foot range
> _When calculating the storage ability, make sure to measure the overall length of the boat on the trailer, including the outboard bracket. I know my West Wight Potter 15 is about 18'2" overall on the trailer. I do have a tongue extension, however, that adds about 10" to its overall length. _
> 
> Trailering: I have a Tacoma that is up to the task of towing ~1000 lb. I will say, however, that the car top-ability of a Sunfish is pretty appealing.


Jim


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## PatMc57

Hi All,
PA [Quakertown] and Chesapeake sailor here. Lake Nockamixon is a few miles from here. Great place to learn/check sailing out. The Sail Club there has Sunfish for Club boats that you can "check out" if a member.
More importantly, they have a wealth of knowledgeable and friendly people who can help you along the way.
https://www.nockamixonsailclub.org/
Fair Winds,
Patrick


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## chef2sail

I reject a one sail boat . I would look at a Hobie 16. 
Easy set up, forgiving a fun to sail. 

Low maintainence. Can be moved in light air


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## motoben

PatMc57 said:


> Hi All,
> PA [Quakertown] and Chesapeake sailor here. Lake Nockamixon is a few miles from here. Great place to learn/check sailing out. The Sail Club there has Sunfish for Club boats that you can "check out" if a member.
> More importantly, they have a wealth of knowledgeable and friendly people who can help you along the way.
> https://www.nockamixonsailclub.org/
> Fair Winds,
> Patrick


Thanks Patrick. There have been a number of recommendations to check out Lake Nockamixon and it is definitely high on my list. I've checked out their website and most things seem to be canceled for the near future (understandably so). Do you know if there are people there these days even just to casually chat with? I figure I could have a masked up conversation or two at a distance without causing any undue risk to anyone.


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## motoben

In the world of motorcycle forums, there are a number of topics that are constantly debated and never really resolved to such a point that they've become a running joke (best engine oil, best tires, proper body position, etc). I'm starting to get the feeling that the "best beginner sailboat" is right along those same lines. :grin

In spite of that and considering my criteria and planned usage, can anyone provide a solid reason for one type over the other for the categories below? 

One Sail vs Two Sails

Monohull vs Multihull

Daggerboard vs Centerboard vs Keel

Of course a lot of you have weighed in already (which I definitely appreciate), but it's hard to get a bead on what is actually appropriate for what I want to do when opinions are so far apart. As I've mentioned, I don't even know enough to have too strong of an opinion on my own and so I keep getting ping-pong balled back and forth. 

In all honesty, though, I'm currently leaning towards a Sunfish for now. The simplicity, low cost, availability of parts, existing user base, and ease of transport and storage are pretty appealing. And As I mentioned, I'm also very okay with upgrading if I realize that I do really enjoy sailing. :svoilier:


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## JamesLD

motoben said:


> In the world of motorcycle forums, there are a number of topics that are constantly debated and never really resolved to such a point that they've become a running joke (best engine oil, best tires, proper body position, etc). I'm starting to get the feeling that the "best beginner sailboat" is right along those same lines. :grin
> 
> _On the Trawler Forum that I also participate on, the great debate is usually twin engines vs. single engines. But the all time debate is what is the best anchor! _
> 
> One Sail vs Two Sails
> _In part, it is dependent on the boat you want. One sail is easier to learn with, two sails could be better as most sailboats have two sails. Personally, if I were to ever buy another trailer sailer it would be a catboat with one big mainsail! _
> 
> Monohull vs Multihull
> _Again, it depends on what boat you want and what you want to do with it. For a beginning, I would definitely say a monohull if we are talking a small boat. The problem with something like a Hobie Cat is that you will sail it on the edge and you will flip it over. Fun if you are experienced and maybe sailing with a friend, but hard to right on your own. You will also probably flip a sunfish, but again fun to sail and much easier to right_
> 
> Daggerboard vs Centerboard vs Keel
> _Daggerboard vs. centerboard vs. fixed keel, again likely depends on whatever boat you select. I prefer a centerboard over a daggerboard, but they both work well and can be locked in place. Fixed keel is most common on larger boats, but can be an issue in shallow water or if trying to load onto a trailer_
> 
> Of course a lot of you have weighed in already (which I definitely appreciate), but it's hard to get a bead on what is actually appropriate for what I want to do when opinions are so far apart. As I've mentioned, I don't even know enough to have too strong of an opinion on my own and so I keep getting ping-pong balled back and forth.
> 
> In all honesty, though, I'm currently leaning towards a Sunfish for now. The simplicity, low cost, availability of parts, existing user base, and ease of transport and storage are pretty appealing. And As I mentioned, I'm also very okay with upgrading if I realize that I do really enjoy sailing. :svoilier:


_Nothing wrong with getting a sunfish. Low cost, easy to transport, lots of fun, and easy to sell if you desire to move onto something else.

Jim_


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## JoCoSailor

motoben said:


> In the world of motorcycle forums, there are a number of topics that are constantly debated and never really resolved to such a point that they've become a running joke (best engine oil, best tires, proper body position, etc). I'm starting to get the feeling that the "best beginner sailboat" is right along those same lines. :grin
> 
> In spite of that and considering my criteria and planned usage, can anyone provide a solid reason for one type over the other for the categories below?
> 
> One Sail vs Two Sails
> 
> Monohull vs Multihull
> 
> Daggerboard vs Centerboard vs Keel
> 
> Of course a lot of you have weighed in already (which I definitely appreciate), but it's hard to get a bead on what is actually appropriate for what I want to do when opinions are so far apart. As I've mentioned, I don't even know enough to have too strong of an opinion on my own and so I keep getting ping-pong balled back and forth.
> 
> In all honesty, though, I'm currently leaning towards a Sunfish for now. The simplicity, low cost, availability of parts, existing user base, and ease of transport and storage are
> 
> pretty appealing. And As I mentioned, I'm also very okay with upgrading if I realize that I do really enjoy sailing. :svoilier:


motoben, I've said this before but it's worth repeating. With your attitude and comprehension, you are going to do fine sailing.

My thoughts as to which boat you buy. It depends on what you do and learn before you make the purchase. If all you do is read books and watch videos. Then buy a boat on your one. IMO you're setting yourself up for failure, buying any other than a simple one sail sailboat like a sunfish.

On the other hand. If you are able to get with a club or some folks that let on their boats. You learn the basics of sailing. You see a sailboat launched from a trailer (IMO there big difference between sail and powerboats). Then look for a bigger, more complex boat. That's what I did. After spending the summer racing a rented sunfish and taking ASA 101.

What I think you need to understand is that every feature that is added to the boat (especially the age you're looking at in your price range). Is another potential failure point. Most boats with two sails require cables (Stays & Shrouds) to keep the mast up. I know from experience the cables and the attachment points, do not get better age. There are more ropes (lines) to fail or need to be replaced. All these make it harder and take longer to set up and get sailing. Not to mention the extra learning of what to do with all the lines and controls.

Daggerboard vs Centerboard vs Keel: Daggerboard is simple. It's a single board you put through a slot. You pull it up or down, you can attach a bungee cord to help keep in place. Most likely capsize, but easy to right. Centerboard has an attachment point it pivots on (potential point of failure). Requires a line or lines to pull it up and down (potential point of failure). I'm sure you get the point.

My experience with trailerable keelboat is limited to a handful full times helping buddies getting their boats in and out. I'll just say. They always want help and would never do by themselves. They are way more stable in the water. Not likely to capsize.

Sorry, I got little or nothing on Monohull vs Multihull. I've just watched a couple of Multihull setup and sail around a little. It seemed like they needed half the lake to turn...

Good luck and keep asking questions.


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## motoben

JamesLD and JoCoSailor, thank you both for the info and vote of confidence! 

I took a ride up to Nockamixon yesterday just to check things out and there were quite a few sailboats out. Judging by the full(ish) parking lot and the crowd at the marina, the place was pretty packed. Things on the the water, though, didn't look too crazy and I could believe that there was enough room that I could try sailing a bit without feeling too claustrophobic. 

However, that after watching some boats come and go, my main concern for when I actually have a boat is the launching and docking of it. Some folks made it look easy, but I definitely have visions of coming into the dock way too hot.  But I'm sure some reading and Youtube videos will help that out a bit.


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## JoCoSailor

motoben said:


> JamesLD and JoCoSailor, thank you both for the info and vote of confidence!
> 
> I took a ride up to Nockamixon yesterday just to check things out and there were quite a few sailboats out. Judging by the full(ish) parking lot and the crowd at the marina, the place was pretty packed. Things on the the water, though, didn't look too crazy and I could believe that there was enough room that I could try sailing a bit without feeling too claustrophobic.
> 
> However, that after watching some boats come and go, my main concern for when I actually have a boat is the launching and docking of it. Some folks made it look easy, but I definitely have visions of coming into the dock way too hot.  But I'm sure some reading and Youtube videos will help that out a bit.


That was a good start. Did you look for the book "Learn to sail in a weekend"? I see used for $6.00 with free shipping on AZ. It has a couple of pages with pictures and diagrams. Of coming and going. With the wind blow in and out.

I also sent a PM. Did you get it?


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## motoben

JoCoSailor said:


> That was a good start. Did you look for the book "Learn to sail in a weekend"? I see used for $6.00 with free shipping on AZ. It has a couple of pages with pictures and diagrams. Of coming and going. With the wind blow in and out.
> 
> I also sent a PM. Did you get it?


I have a copy of that book on order - I'm just waiting on it. I've also since gotten to the part of Royce's that pertains to docking a sailboat and that has shed a bit of light on the process. Though I've got to say that while Royce's is very well regarded and may be a wonderful quick reference for experienced sailors, I found it super disjointed and not as helpful as I had hoped.

And I did get your PM and tried to respond, but I'm a few posts short of getting PM reply privileges. I am definitely interested in what you mentioned, though.


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## motoben

So I've finally operated a boat in a manner that could be confused with sailing!

Last week I ended up buying a Sunfish that happens to have been made the same year that I was. I took it out on Sunday to Lake Nockamixon and, after some amount of hesitation, actually managed to let go of the dock (having had concerns of not being able to return to it). But, the sailing was fun!

I didn't capsize and managed to tack back and forth and make my way upwind, however ungracefully. I also sailed downwind, which I'll admit was a bit more unnerving. I also got my surprise jibe out of the way, so I can check that off the list, ha. Anyway, I'm definitely excited to try it again!

Also, having now (poorly) operated a Sunfish, I'm less confident that it is a two person boat (at least if one of the persons is me, ha). However, the boat came with two sails and I've since noticed that the boom on the sail that I took sits much closer to the deck than the one shown below. I think I may have made things more difficult for myself by using the other sail. Oh well, maybe next time will seem a lot easier with the higher boomed sail?


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## motoben

Oh, and here's the sail that I actually sailed with. Note the boom-to-deck clearance difference.


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## chef2sail

JimMcGee said:


> Ben,
> Sailors like to talk about sailing and we're generally a pretty friendly bunch.
> 
> Memorial Day weekend will be a busy weekend and people will be re-connecting with friends after being locked up all winter.
> 
> Try going down to one of the marinas in Forked River, NJ the following Saturday morning. Pick a marina where you see a lot of sailboats. Stroll down the docks and look at the boats and strike up conversations. Let people know you're interested in learning. I'll bet someone offers you a ride (I've done it).
> 
> To be polite offer to grab sandwiches for everyone. For the cost of a trip to Jersey Mike's you'll get a day on the water, learn a bit about sailing and maybe even get some time at the helm. If you let it be known you're looking for a beginner boat, you'll find out about boats that aren't necessarily listed anywhere because they're inexpensive.
> 
> Once you have a couple of sailing days under your belt I do recommend an ASA sailing school weekend that covers the basics. If you teach yourself, you may teach yourself bad habits. The school will give you a good foundation in the basics and confidence that would take a while to gain if you're on your own.
> 
> We did a long weekend in Annapolis that included a two day sailing school and I always thought it was money well spent.
> 
> Best of luck,
> Jim


I don't recommend this in the current Covid state. Most places would ask you to leave with social distancing being what it is.


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## TakeFive

motoben said:


> Oh, and here's the sail that I actually sailed with. Note the boom-to-deck clearance difference.


Congrats on your first boat, and your first successful outing! The sail you used is from a Scorpion sailboat, which is similar to a Sunfish (but not identical, as you noticed). I'm not sure, but I assume that a Scorpion's mast is higher, so the boom clearance would have been better than you had. I'd switch to the original Sunfish sail, as you're planning to do.


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## chef2sail

motoben said:


> Oh, and here's the sail that I actually sailed with. Note the boom-to-deck clearance difference.
> View attachment 136305


Good show
Just keep having fun and you'll pick it up quickly. Take Five used to sail that lake and I've Hobie catted on it.
Pretty soon a keelboat will be in your future????


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## JoCoSailor

Motoben, 

Glad to see you made out on the water (and back). Good to hear that you make it upwind, then sailed downwind. The fact that you understood the difference and knew you jibed. I find amazing. You must be a natural. 

I agree with the others use the sunfish sail. You'll enjoy the extra headroom.


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## motoben

Ha ha, not so sure about being a natural, but it was a bit more intuitive than what I expected. I do recognize, however, that being able to move a boat around a bit is a far cry from actually sailing well!


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## chef2sail

Just compare your progress to yourself. That way you see the strides you’ve made.


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## JoCoSailor

motoben said:


> Ha ha, not so sure about being a natural, but it was a bit more intuitive than what I expected. I do recognize, however, that being able to move a boat around a bit is a far cry from actually sailing well!


You are off to a great start. Keep doing what you are doing you'll get there. When I was getting started. I was able to just follow some folks racing. That worked great for me. If you can't do that look for something you can sail towards...see if can get to it and back


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## PatMc57

motoben said:


> Thanks Patrick. There have been a number of recommendations to check out Lake Nockamixon and it is definitely high on my list. I've checked out their website and most things seem to be canceled for the near future (understandably so). Do you know if there are people there these days even just to casually chat with? I figure I could have a masked up conversation or two at a distance without causing any undue risk to anyone.


They are definitely out sailing again


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