# Sailing from France to Australia



## deandavis1 (Dec 1, 2009)

Hello, I am looking at buying a boat in France to bring back to Australia and was wondering if anyone could comment on the reality of the following idea.

March - Pick in France & Prep in the med
April - Play in mediterranean
May - Sail North Atlantic Ocean
Jun - Sail Caribbean Sea
July/Aug - Sail Pacific Ocean
Sep - Arrive Australia

The aim is to pickup in France, have a little adventure at the same time as focusing on having the boat in sydney for Oct.

Any comments would be much appreciated.

Thanks 

Dean


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Sounds like it might be fun in the right boat. Keep an eye out in the Caribbean for possible weather in June. Don't know about the Pacific.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Sounds do-able but looks more like a delivery than a cruise... that's a pretty aggressive schedule, and on a trip like that "schedules" can be hard to stick to...


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

deandavis1 said:


> Hello, I am looking at buying a boat in France to bring back to Australia and was wondering if anyone could comment on the reality of the following idea.
> 
> March - Pick in France & Prep in the med
> April - Play in mediterranean
> ...


Not very realistic in terms of the time needed. If it was a very fast boat and you had absolutely no problems it is just doable if you skip the Med. Play around in the rias of the Atlantic coast of Spain and Portugal instead. But I would see you at sea any time you had a decent weather window if you were going to make Aus. by September.

BUT and it is a BIG BUT JUNE JULY AUGUST and SEPTEMBER is HURRICANE SEASON. OK June in the Caribbean is a fairly low risk month but the next three in the Pacific - well rather you than me!


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## deandavis1 (Dec 1, 2009)

Thanks for everyone's input. I put this together yesterday and this is the beginning of researching the feasibility. I hope to buy and pickup a new jeanneau 45DS. So the first March is really about setting up the boat and becoming familiar with it.

TQA, thanks for your advise re Hurricane I had a quick glance last night and thought that would miss it in the Atlantic. Need to look harder at the Pacific obviously.

Cheers


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

As has been said in other posts, I agree that your time frame is seriously optimistic. Here's why.

I "delivered" my boat from San Deigo to New Zealand. We left SD on 6 June, we stopped in the Marquesas (4 days), Bali (5 days) and Raratonga (4 days). We stopped because: 

Marquesas - we had been at sea for 24 days and needed a break and maintenance.
Bali - it was too beautiful to just sail past
Raratonga - maintenance and we then still had 1600 miles home to Auckland
We arrived in NZ on 18th August. Total trip time 2 and a half months. Stopped time 13 days. Total distance 6000nm (approx)

Now consider your trip.

You are leaving the Med in May, crossing the Atlantic, weaving your way through the Carribean, transit through Panama, then basically the same trip we did across the Pacific but further. And *then* on from NZ to Australia.

So approx 13000 miles (more than twice our distance), a canal transit (could be two weeks), probably three times the stops (more long distance voyages, more maintenance and rests needed) in addition to the canal transit.

And you want to be in Aus in September? Only 6 weeks longer than our trip?? I believe you're either setting yourself up for a bad hiding or you're going to take two months longer than you think.

You should consider something like Virtual Passage Planner to have a decent look at what you're up against in terms of weather, distance etc. It may cost a few dollars but it will give you a way better feel for your task. See it here:

Digital Wave - Products

There may also be a few free-ware downloads that will be useful.

Then go to Noonsite.com and have a look at the options you have for stopping along the route and get some up-to-date info on Panama. And know up front that no matter how good your boat is when you leave, you will have somethin to fix at the end of EVERY leg of your voyage.

Finally, it has been said on this forum and others that the one thing that has no place on a sailing boat is a schedule and definitely not a tight one. I have no idea what your constraints are but if you HAVE to get back for employment reasons or other drivers, be aware that you are in an environment that is often out of your control and forcing an issue at sea could end up getting you killed.

I can't recall ever completing a voyage in the time I *comfortably *set for myself. I have no reason to believe that you will either.

If you do the trip your way, good luck. My advice is slow down and enjoy the trip - you may never get the chance to go back.

Really.


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

Did you check the other way around. Travel in the Med, pass to Red Sea, Indian Ocean, Pacific?


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## deandavis1 (Dec 1, 2009)

I really appreciate this conversation. omatako lots of good points. 

I did think about the other way around but thought the pirate issue too much of a risk. Thoughts?


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Dean,

As others have said, that is a very aggressive schedule for the distances you plan to cover. In a new boat, too! Which assumes that the factory will even deliver it on schedule. What happens if the boat comes off the production line a month late? Now you will be transitting hurricane alley as "the season" really ramps up.

Also, even though the boat is brand new, it will require quite a bit of work and prep to get it ready for a voyage like this. Stock production boats rarely have the necessary equipment for long distance cruising, and even if yours does there will be a "shake down" period during which you'll discover some things don't work as planned or even at all. You'll need time to fit and re-fit.

Those comments apply to any boat. But regarding the 45DS in particular, what is your plan for fitting storm shutters over those enormous windows? What kind of self-steering do you plan to fit? 

My final thoughts are that it would be far less expensive to ship the boat back, in case you are planning the trip to save money on delivery costs to Aus. If it's for the adventure, then that's a different story of course. Also, I would ask Jeanneau if there is any difference in warranty coverage between shipping and sailing the boat back.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

celenoglu said:


> Did you check the other way around. Travel in the Med, pass to Red Sea, Indian Ocean, Pacific?


As it happens, I also did a voyage from South Africa across the Indian Ocean to Seychelles then on the Indonesia.

I would not recommend this to anyone. The Indian is the lumpiest most uncomfortable sea to traverse even going east-west. Going west-east all the winds and currents are against you unless your timing is perfect. It was not a nice voyage and one I personally would never repeat.

Also, there is no support. You're surrounded by countries who are relatively poor and in any case don't give a rats a$$ whether you live or die. SAR support simply doesn't exist. There are those who will say one shouldn't plan a voyage with SAR intervention as a part of your thinking but it is daunting to know that if anything serious goes wrong (and it can even with the best of intentions) you are seriously on your own.

And then of course you have the piracy issue and we all know of two Brits who would not recommend that voyage.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Holy crap Oma, you've done some serious sailing, man! (though I always suspected that).

Do you have a blog, etc. on these trips? The delivery trip sounds incredible.


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## mintcakekeith (Nov 5, 2009)

not a good idea with a new boat,you need at least a seasons sailing to sort out all the problems that will arise,personally I would go via Capetown but probably uninsurable that way.keith


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Do you have a blog, etc. on these trips? The delivery trip sounds incredible.


Sorry Smack I don't have the time to keep with this forum let alone run a blog 

But I did report on the trip from the US to NZ way back in 2007, FWIW if you looked for it amongst my posts you'd probably find it.

Sorry Dean, didn't mean to hijack your thread.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm on it Oma.

Now what could possibly be keeping you too busy to waste time here?


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## deandavis1 (Dec 1, 2009)

I've said it before and I'll say it again... thanks everyone. The trip can extend either way (ie start a month earlier and finish a couple of months later) if we are in the ball park.

Comments about Hurricane seasons are a major concern. I did a little bit of googling and thought i was on the cusp in each sea/ocean. Does anyone recommend a good all in one site to review timing of these? I will look further at Virtual Passage (thanks for the tip), and have been working my way through noonsite and plan to buy Jimmy Cornell's books. 

In regards to storm window protection I had not thought or heard of this... any suggestions? I will also talk to the vendor about it.

As for self-steering... I am not sure yet but it will be a combination of autopilot, radar and GPS. I have done a couple of sails in Bass Stait and up and down the East Coast of Australia to know how important this is (and have had the autopilot die on me).

I have some flexibility with the duration but all in all early year departure and back in Sydney for Summer is what I'm aiming for.

I also hope to save some money by sailing it as it is about 30-50k AUD for delivery, but also want the experience. Timing is never good just to pick up and leave but i feel its now or never.

I was also considering taking my dog with me (a French Mastiff) but after reading many other posts think this is a bad idea.

Glad to hear the other way around has no support (thank Omatako).

I will ask Jeanneau about the affect on warranty but suspect the boat is built and sold for bluewater sailing so it should be fine. I am more worried about warranty support during the trip as I may not be near their network.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

deandavis1 said:


> Glad to hear the other way around has no support (thank Omatako)


But there IS support in the middle of the Pacific or Atlantic?

Who is going to insure you? You realize that if you finance the boat you will be required to carry hull insurance; and insurance is difficult to get if you are going beyond ~50 miles offshore. My first insurance policy only allowed me to sail within 20 NM of the enterance to San Francisco Bay (but the funny thing is the SF Bar is the worst area for rough seas).

If you are wealthy enough to pay cash for a brand new 45' boat; then delivery should not be a problem. In addition you should consider the cost of wear/tear on a boat sailing it over 1/2 the distance of the globe. The maintenance due to wear could easily equal the delivery cost.

In addition to all of this you should consider your personal experience; and the ability of even a newly constructed boat to sail non-stop 13000 miles. There are always problems with a boat's various systems; new or old. Brand new boats generally take at least a year of use before all of the bugs are worked out (but I don't know personally as I have never bought a new boat).

A Jenneau 45 is probably a well constructed boat and I'm sure that it would be fine in offshore sailing conditions; but I don't know if I would consider it a boat that is specifically designed for sailing across oceans. I'm sure it can be done; but I'm not sure I would choose a Jenneau for this task. People sail mass production boats like Hunters, Catalinas, Beneteau, etc on long offshore passages regularly; but there are also several known failures of new boats on passage due to problems like rudder posts snapping off (not built heavily enough).


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## deandavis1 (Dec 1, 2009)

again I recognise your points. The question of being able to afford a new 45DS has a lot of variables that is a little off topic but I would say that delivery is still a huge cost to Australia. However this is less about cost and more about value and experience with ticks in a few other boxes.


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## deandavis1 (Dec 1, 2009)

another question. what would be the normal number and type of sails to carry on such a trip. Obviously the boat will come with a standard head and main, but what would most of you take with you?

I guess also what other spares would you take?

Cheers


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Well we just race local BUT carry storm jib and depending on the race a mainsail with 3 reef points and sometimes thats to much sail 

On a trip like this you pretty much need everything made in terms of saftey equmient


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Why not start later in the year? Catch the sailing season around Nov., and work your way home with favorable weather the whole way? I am wondering about your questions of sails? Just what experience do you have? To plan for a trip like you suggest. You should already know the sailing seasons, and sails needed?.......*i2f*


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

deandavis1 said:


> ...In regards to storm window protection I had not thought or heard of this... any suggestions? I will also talk to the vendor about it.
> 
> As for self-steering... I am not sure yet but it will be a combination of autopilot, radar and GPS. I have done a couple of sails in Bass Stait and up and down the East Coast of Australia to know how important this is (and have had the autopilot die on me)...


Dean,

The "Deck Salon" is a popular design feature that really creates a lot of light and openness below decks in the main salon. But it comes with a price: Those giant windows are a potential liability in storm conditions off-shore.

Personally, I would not choose a design like this for extensive off-shore sailing, but that's your call. Regardless, you need to have a plan to address the possibility that you could have a large hole in the mid-deck of your boat during bad conditions,_ or to prevent that from happening in the first place (hence the storm shutters)_.

On the autopilot, you might be wise to have completely redundant systems installed, especially if you will be shorthanded during some of the longer passages. I'm not sure how easy it would be to install a windvane on this design, but you might consider one instead. 13000 miles is a long way to count on a single electronic autopilot.

Sail inventory: You'll want a full complement of sails. Probably 2-3 minimum of working headsails of different sizes and construction weight. A reefable, cruising weight mainsail. Storm sails (storm jib, storm trysail) and any necessary hardware to fly them. Spinnakers for light air, with a pole and associated hardware/control lines. Others?

You'll also want drogues and sea anchors, but that's a subject for another thread.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Dean, you've received some pointed cautionary advice, and as this thread progresses I (and others, apparently) have to wonder whether you have the experience and knowledge to undertake this extensive voyage as you are planning to do it.

All the cautions made to this point are valid... I'd urge you to take them very seriously, esp those from the folks that have 'been there done that'.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Firstly insurance: If you can't get decent insurance anywhere else, let me know - I got my boat covered for the blue water trip at a rate only marginally more than my domestic sailing rates. And the insurance is fully underwritten by Lloyds.

Secondly sails - I did the trip with a main and head sail and a spare headsail. Stupidly, I never had any storm sails (never had time to organise any, another reason not to have a tight schedule) and would strongly recommend at least a storm jib. Also give some consideration to how you will fly it without any major effort. Stuff that takes major effort always ends up being left until it's too late

Thirdly weather windows - don't pay lip service to this, this is a very important aspect and good weather routing is essential to your safety.


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## bb74 (Feb 11, 2009)

What I would recommend (not knowing hte details) is pick up the boat in March - do the shakedown for 6 months in the Med and Atlantic (maybe a crossing) - ley her up for repairs, and get it shipped the rest of the way. In one month you're going to be wasting you time in the Med - you really need 3-4 months minimum to even begin to see the sights and destinations. The schedule is not +/- a month - try +/- 3-6 months minimum. Fatigue, injuries, mechanical problems, etc, are going to happen and unless you're a Vendée Globe class sailor, I don't see how it's remotely reasonable to set-up such a schedule.

I fail to see the logic on the shipping costs as with the $ where it is vs. the €, you'd be better off financially to rent in Europe, fly to the US, buy and have the boat shipped. Check the US prices - most of the boats are quoted nearly the same number value in USD (for the US) as EUR for Europe.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> Those giant windows are a potential liability in storm conditions off-shore.


That's in addition to the windows that are in the sidewall of the hull. I can't see how you would trust those not to leak or get damaged in some way while on an ocean crossing.

Somehow I don't know if you would get the best deal on a boat directly from the MFR. One reason is that US markets are slow now so they will want to be making up for lost revenue. You might consider buying on the west coast of US; you could probably find either a new one for rock bottom price or a "repo" given the economic climate.

Also, Beneteau MFR's boats in the US (forget where) but delivery to the US west coast would be much cheaper than from France.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

A "NUMBER" of the Jeanneaus that are in the 40+ foot range have done ocean crossings. The local Jeanneau dealership owner took his family from Seattle to Oz and back over 2 yrs in a SO49iP. I personally am not to sure I would want a deck salon for ocean going, BUT, as I recal Oyster is designing some, so it must not be a REALLY bad idea!

The 49iP is for sale in Seattle, ready to go. Granted it is not a deck salon, but it is ready. As also mentioned, the World Arc, had more Jeanneaus than any other brand. IIRC mostly 49i's.

If you want to know how a DS will do offshore etc, Try to get ahold of zanshin on this site, or go the www.jeanneau-owners.com and find the forum and see if you can find him there too. There are a number of others that have ocean experience with Jeanneau's.

Also, look up the world Arc route and see when they went and where. as that was planned over 15 months or so, to miss most of the heavy wind time frames, ie hurricanes etc.

Marty


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## deandavis1 (Dec 1, 2009)

Thank you everyone for your wealth of advice and suggestions. I have been doing a lot planning based on this would like to solicit feedback on the following revised plan (TIMING AND LOCATION ONLY). 

I know there are a lot of other issues besides timing mentioned above and that has not gone unnoticed, but to focus on the feasibility of the schedule please let me know what you think of my following logic... 

Sep 2010 - Yacht delivery in France (Antibites) Aprox 2 weeks+ prep etc.

Sep - Nov 2010 - (2 months) exploring around the Mediterranean. I believe this is Autumn and the best time to go.

Late Nov 2010 - Sail the Atlantic (14-21 days) I got this from the Arc Rally.

Dec 2010 - Jan 2011 - (2 months) Sail around the Caribbean (seems the right time to go according to Noonsite).

Feb 2011 - July 2011 (6 Months) Following the approximate route and time of previous World Arc Panama to Australia.

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance...


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Much more realistic. 

However I do wonder where in the Med you plan to leave from in November. There is a good chance of poor weather between the western Med and Gran Canaria in November. That trip can be a bit of a slog.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

TQA said:


> Much more realistic.
> 
> However I do wonder where in the Med you plan to leave from in November. There is a good chance of poor weather between the western Med and Gran Canaria in November. That trip can be a bit of a slog.


Agreed. That is a more realistic schedule, if still a bit hurried. You could easily spend much more time exploring the Med and Carib. Also, it doesn't allow a lot of time for shakedown of the new boat.

As for the Med portion, you probably will want to confine your ambitions to the Western Med. You could make a hop across to Corsica from the Riviera (but make sure you have a good weather window), then down the west coast of Corsica to Bonifacio. From there, time dependent, you could see a bit of Sardinia or head west to the Balearic Islands (but winds will likely be contrary). Then to Gibraltar via coastal Spain.

I would think you'd want to be in Gran Canary a week or two ahead of the ARC fleet. And try to leave a few days ahead of them so that there are plenty of boats out there with you during the crossing. Or why not just join the ARC?


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## deandavis1 (Dec 1, 2009)

I might join the Arc. Although I had a look at some of the youtube videos and there is something in my mind saying that having soooo many boats around me kind of defeats the purpose of being out there.

I could not find much in formation on sailing routes in the Med other that 7-14 day charter company sites. I could spend more time there (which would also allow more "boat shake down") by arriving at the end of Summer (August).

I would be interested to hear of any routes/duration in both The Med and Caribbean.

Point noted re weather window to get to Gran Canary. Given that it will be the start of Winter in the Med I might want to leave earlier anyway... thanks.


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## orthomartin (Oct 21, 2006)

*more thoughts*

Timing for Atlantic and Pacific fairly simple. Atlantic from say Canaries late Nov through Jan., this gives you time to make Panama by late Feb early March. Spring is best for Pacific passage. 
The boat - it is unlikely the boat will be delivered without some significant issues. I would sail her hard and use all systems for at least a month before straying too far from the dealer. Also having crossed the Atlantic a couple times (currently in Croatia) I would strongly suggest (as mentioned in another post) two independent autopilots. When shorthanded it is the single most important piece of equipment on the boat. Also make sure your watermaker is functioning as advertised and check the salinity with a independent tester.
Sails: Your route is mostly downwind. A cruising spinnaker in dousing sock is worth every penny
We by the way are signed up for the 2010 ARC so perhaps we will see you. Any questions feel free to PM


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## deandavis1 (Dec 1, 2009)

All further research is now on hold until the order for the boat is placed.... if they meet my pricing this is likely to be only days away. However, I do have one question.... how important is a watermaking unit (I have not allowed for this) given I am only about three weeks at most away from land?


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## mintcakekeith (Nov 5, 2009)

3 weeks is a hell of a long time without water. you need enough water in seperate tanks for at least double your expected crossing time with a means of accessing it without relying on electricity.at a push 5gal plastic tanks well secured inside somewhere.Keith


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Dean firstly hi from a Sydneysider and best of luck with your trip.

I second the Watermaker.

Especially in the Pacific you cannot just pull the boat up to a Marina berth and turn on the tap.......think more multiple trips in the dinghy holding 4 jerry cans and the dog, making landings upon a commericial pier in rough weather where if you the jerry cans and the dog all make in ashore it is cause for a island feast. 

This is then all assuming that when you have carried the jerry cans up the hill to the tap, the water is of an acceptable quality...


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Hey Dean, Also have you ever considered using a delivery skipper for at least some the trip to help the timing, and add some experience onboard?

A pro will know how to get the miles out of the boat safely, and may be of some help in shaking down the boat.

Like for example do the Med yourself as a bit of fun and a shakedown, then maybe the ARC, and then get a delivery skipper to help you get her across the Pacific safely and quick smart??

Or even just do a couple of months in the Med, and then get someone to bring her over, and you can be onboard for the bits you want to be onboard for..

Just some thoughts...all of this of course does also come down to $$$$


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## csaintg (Nov 12, 2009)

In the military, we alloted five gallons of water, per day, per person as a minimum. That is including personal hygene needs. So you need to be carting over 100 gallons with you for three weeks. That's a lot of Jerry Cans!


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## mintcakekeith (Nov 5, 2009)

yea a lot of jerrycans, but would you trust your life to a bit of electronic gadgetry.at least you need a hand opperated watermaker as a back up. 2 gal a day should be enough fo drinking and cooking ,wash up in sea water .no personal washing unless it rains.K


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I agree that a watermaker should be 'on the list' at least.. so many places the water is of questionable quality and/or difficult or expensive to get.

True, it's another gadget, another maintenance headache and a power consumer but those we know that have one wouldn't be without it now.


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## deandavis1 (Dec 1, 2009)

Just wanted to thank everyone for their posts. I have decided to get the Yacht delivered to Sydney and have placed the order for the following reasons:

1. Didnt want to leave the dog and couldnt work out a way to take him.
2. The overall cost and additional equipment needed etc.
3. I'm looking forward to having a shinny new boat on the harbour and thought it would be tired by the time it got back.
4. I feel between Sydney harbour, the Whitsundays and some close pacific islands i can get the adventure needed.
5. I hope to gain the experience need to maybe one day do this with a partner.

See you in Sydney chall03.


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## deandavis1 (Dec 1, 2009)

I should add to this that I think the idea of chartering a yacht in the med makes a lot of sense and I hope to do this one day when my wallet recovers.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

deandavis1 said:


> Just wanted to thank everyone for their posts. I have decided to get the Yacht delivered to Sydney and have placed the order for the following reasons:
> 
> 1. Didnt want to leave the dog and couldnt work out a way to take him.
> 2. The overall cost and additional equipment needed etc.
> ...


Dean,

I think your reasoning makes a lot of sense. As I said previously, with all the time, equipment, etc it's hard to make the numbers ($$) work for a voyage like this as compared to shipping the boat. Essentially, you have to think of it as an expensive (but certainly worthwhile) adventure, rather than a way to economize or save money.

Please keep us posted as you spec, order, and take delivery of your new boat (photos, please! ). Seeing as the vast majority of us will never own a brand new boat, we all get a vicarious thrill from such things.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Dean, Congratulations on the boat !!!

I think your right, there is plenty of decent adventuring around here, and then there is the benefit of being able to approach it on your own terms, step by step......

We are personally planning a cruise up the east coast, then across to the Louisaddes in Papua New Guinea, The Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, New Caledonia and back to Sydney.

Mind you we had our first taste of the Med this year on a charter and really liked it....maybe we could just keep going


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## deandavis1 (Dec 1, 2009)

Well new yacht arrives this month. Looking forward to popping the bubble wrap )


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Dean,

I'd be having trouble sleeping at this point!

Photos, please, upon arrival!!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Congrats.... has the clock slowed to a crawl yet??


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Umm and isn't Sydney putting on wonderfully nice weather for a maiden sail!!!!! 

Congrats Dean. Like JRP said photos please!!!


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## deandavis1 (Dec 1, 2009)

It's been raining for 40 days and 40 nights in Sydney. Sounds like a great time for an ark ;o). Thanks


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