# Idea for turnbuckle cotter pins



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

How to secure cotter pins in turnbuckles seems to evoke a range of advice.
Most people insert the cotter pin. bend the legs back and cover with rigger tape.
Some people say the tape encourages crevice corrosion and makes them hard to inspect. They recommend to tape but bending the legs back and around far enough so they will not catch on sails.

I just saw another way.
The sailor had a piece of Velcro about 6" long and 3/4" wide. Pushed through the end of Velcro and the head sewn in with sailor's thread was fixed a cotter pin. The legs were left straight. 
The way it was used is that the pin is put in the turnbuckle hole. The Velcro was wrapped around the turnbuckle. The pin could not fall out due to the circle of Velcro. It was loose enough to drain water. It is easy to remove to inspect.
What do you think?


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## amarinesurveyor (Feb 12, 2009)

I don't think it is as secure as a cotter pin. With time the ends of the cotter pin will chafe through the velcro that is deteriorating from the UV in sunlight.
What's wrong with a simple cotter pin? and no need to tape it if you direct the pointy ends inboard and bend them back. Keep it simple stu... ;-)
Brian


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I race on a lot of boats EVERYBODY uses TAPE they don't make cocoons around it and they don't have issues as most of the taped areas take such a beating it gets redone a few times a year.

When your running jib sheets and spinnaker sheets and guys and 4 halyards stuff gets caught on stuff


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## NateCP16 (Dec 28, 2008)

There is a commercially available velcro-type product that is popular with the trailer sailing crowd.

Wrap Pins
West Marine: Wrap Pins for Turnbuckles Product Display


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Also popular with the racing crowd that adjust and tune a lot.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I agree the velcro isn't as secure as a cotter pin being bent. But they should only be bent about 15 degrees, not 180. The other solution is to use split rings. As far as tape, just around the cotter pin not the whole turnbuckle. Another solution is a dab of silicone on the cotter pin end. One of the few uses for silicone on a boat.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Do you have first hand knowledge of the product in the link?
Properly installed, they work fine and are very convenient for fine tuning and retuning.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

No, but I wouldn't trust my rig to a strip of velcro. I like secured cotter pins.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

NateCP16 said:


> There is a commercially available velcro-type product that is popular with the trailer sailing crowd.
> 
> Wrap Pins
> West Marine: Wrap Pins for Turnbuckles Product Display


That's exactly what it was. I thought it was home made. Thanks.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

As the guy checking the tape Those would be toast in a one hour 4 leg W/L race as the Velcro will snag sheets and get tugged


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Wow, really, never has happened on the board the boat I crew on which races every Wednesday evening and most long distance races during the season including a 600 mile race. Where are you getting your information?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Seems to me to be an expensive way (relatively) to try and improve the tried and proven. Good marketing idea, wish I owned the company. But I'll stick to plain cotter pins. Some things just don't need changing.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Mi,<O</O
I would be willing to bet that you tune your rig in the spring and let it go for the balance of the season. Am I correct? Or perhaps, your rig has been standing for several seasons and you have not touched your turnbuckles or pins for a couple of years other to inspect them. I know a lot of boats out there like that. These are not for you, they are for the sailors and racers that tune and adjust and retune as conditions warrant. Just because they do not fit your requirements or needs does not make them a bad product. <O</O
$3.25/ea. ?? Not very expensive if you ask me.<O</O
Like I said, they are used on the boat that I crew on and they are very convenient and have never given any problems and have never opened up or snagged etc.<O</O<O</O


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I like rings and not bending anything roll them in roll them out bit of tape to protect things and off we go


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

*rings*

I vote 4 rings. I have a box of ring cotters (1"x.o62 wire dia. 302 ss passivated) they are designed 4 easy install or removal. One end is slightly bent inwards for easy access. In a real hurry to remove just use side cutters.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Rings are good and standard cotter pins are also easy to remove and replace if used properly - they shouldn't be bent back on themselves but only opened about 15 degrees.


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## saildog1 (Apr 19, 2007)

I use the split round things. They're kind of like a key chain ring. Smooth so no sail snags or corrosion under the tape.


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## nereussailor (Nov 3, 2007)

Rings here too. I've used them on my last three boats. Never taped them, and never had anything catch on them. 

Dave


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I've used rings for years since they make adjustment easy. There is a risk of catching them with a sheet (especially when I used the blade on my boat). I have not taped them since that defeats the purpose of using a ring in the first place. A favorite set up for protecting the Ring-dings from snagging sheets and sails is to make a sleeve out of PVC tubing. I leave the tubing open at the top and can slide the tube up out of the way to work on the turnbuckle and let it drop down when I am done. That said, I have never gotten around to making a set for Synergy. 

I am also a big believer in backing off the rigging tension and putting lanacote on the threads of the turnbuckle to minimize crevice coorosion. 

Jeff


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

Rings on shroud turnbuckles suck!. I had a sheet catch on one and pull it out detaching the shroud!. Quick crew action and a panic tack back so we saved the rig.

The velcro wrap pins are the bomb. I've been using them for at least 5 years. They have held up to 60 knots of wind- no problem. When you put them on, the trick is orient them so that the tail end terminates on the inboard side of the turnbuckle. No chance to catch and unravel there.

These babies are a lifesaver if you get dismasted in rough conditions, especially at night. We had our rig explode and break in 3 places in a microburst at night. Rig and sails blew over the side of the boat in 2 seconds. The crew were able unwrap the pins and unscrew the turnbuckles by feel. We got rid of the rig quickly since it was banging underneath the boat at an alarming rate. Ever try to cut away your rig in 65 knots while the boat is violently pitching from 4 foot steep short chop. I have and the wrap pins made it doable and safe.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

That is why racing rules require you to carry tools to cut away the rig quick and i can rip the rings out with fast if needed


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

The armchair heroes are out in force today ! "No, but I wouldn't trust my rig to a strip of velcro. I like secured cotter pins." Really, do you think the velcro is under load or just restraining the pin from backing out? Have you ever tried to peel the velcro? 

"Those would be toast in a one hour 4 leg W/L race as the Velcro will snag sheets and get tugged". Funny, someone who has never used them is speculating again. Over the last 5 years I've done probably close to 75 w/l races on my boat and others, not once have we had the wrap pins tug open. Again suggest you try them before discounting it. Had a slit ring open once- no more split rings. That C&C 35 must have 3/4" barbed wire sheets to be that abusive to your turnbuckles.

"That is why racing rules require you to carry tools to cut away the rig quick and i can rip the rings out with fast if needed". Thanks, except no one is suggesting that you not carry tools to cut away the rig. If the C&C 35 has rod rigging how are you going to cut it unless you have a Shootit or Holmatro Hydraulic cutter. If you have a Harken roller furling please tell me how you are going to saw through the foil and headstay as the bow rises up and down 6-8 feet and rolls around for good measure. Bolt cutters won't work for that application. Most people don't have a clue about how hard it is to get the rig away from the boat if it blows over the side especially at night. These pins make it easier and faster to unscrew the rig which you can even do if it is under load.

Bottom line if you put the rig up in the spring and take it down when you haul and leave the settings alone by all means use conventional cotter pins. If you plan on tuning your rig for conditions the wrap pins work very well. I change out my wrap pins about every 3 Great Lakes seasons.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I wonder why we have some people reporting that rings catch sheets and some do not.
You ring catchers, is it possible you are using a spring type ring (Just 1.5 wraps of wire) instead of the split ring type (like a key chain)?

The spring type I could see how you could just pull it with a pliers and it would pull out. 
The split ring type, how do you get them off quick? I doubt if a pliers would work easily especially in the dark.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Sanduskysailor said:


> Bottom line if you put the rig up in the spring and take it down when you haul and leave the settings alone by all means use conventional cotter pins. If you plan on tuning your rig for conditions the wrap pins work very well. I change out my wrap pins about every 3 Great Lakes seasons.


Actually is seems as though you would recommend the wrap pins even for cruisers as they are so easy to remove with no tools in the dark. Yes?

Also I doubt it matters but do you think salt water would be more of a problem?


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I don't freaking like Velcro products be it shoes or anything else it always picks stuff up on the hooks and becomes unreliable over time and ends up in the trash 

It is amazing how easy it is to upset thin skinned people because you express that you don't care for soemthing and prefer something else

And more amazing your so sure whose in the armchair


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Sanduskysailor said:


> Rings on shroud turnbuckles suck!. I had a sheet catch on one and pull it out detaching the shroud!. Quick crew action and a panic tack back so we saved the rig.


Can you help me visualize what exactly happened?
If the ring got pulled out what made the turnbuckle un-wind about 10 turns to come about.

Did the ring get pulled out then after a few hours the turnbuckle loosened.
That's all I can figure?


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

tommays said:


> It is amazing how easy it is to upset thin skinned people because you express that you don't care for soemthing and prefer something else


I disagree, I think the problem is people offer opinions with out having any first hand experience.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I just want to make it perfectly clear that, indeed, I'm an armchair hero with 3rd hand experience.

And I like the rings....and velcro sneakers. But that's just me.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I think this thread is getting more volatile than the solder/crimp debate.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Well - Sandusky has done a couple Macs from what I've read. So I'll listen to him. I'd call that first-hand experience.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I did not have to try this to feel it would have problems


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## midnightsailor (May 23, 2003)

what the heck is it?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

It's an electric motor pod that bolts below the boat - aluminum housing with electric motor inside - in salt water = disaster waiting to happen - and it will.


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## midnightsailor (May 23, 2003)

:laugher OK, I could not tell the size of it , looked like some kind of miniture toy, made by MATEL I thought it was all plastic:laugher :laugher


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

If it was all plastic it wouldn't have ended up looking like this.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I got a lifetime of doing stuff and teaching it gives me the same as everybody else and informed opinion


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## midnightsailor (May 23, 2003)

*Definately not plastic*

WoW ! I certainly see wait you mean. THanks for those follow up pictures, I have never seen such a thing. Who Made that? Whose Boat and what kind of boat was it on, if you know? Definately not plastic !


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

"I wonder why we have some people reporting that rings catch sheets and some do not.You ring catchers, is it possible you are using a spring type ring (Just 1.5 wraps of wire) instead of the split ring type (like a key chain)?"
Precisely. It was the spring type and on a boat that had just been purchased and launched. We replaced all the rings when we got back to the dock and reinspected the rig. Lesson learned.

Well - Sandusky has done a couple Macs from what I've read. So I'll listen to him. I'd call that first-hand experience.
17 MACS in fact.

My previous boat had forward lowers. We used the wrap pins on these also and never had one come off through numerous tacks dragging a large genoa around them.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Sanduskysailor said:


> Well - Sandusky has done a couple Macs from what I've read. So I'll listen to him. I'd call that first-hand experience.
> *17 MACS in fact.*


Okay - but I guess you know what the REAL question is....how many of those did you win?

There another dude on here that has done a few; Nicholson. He's got some stories!


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## 7Psych (Aug 28, 2007)

I race on a boat where the owner just uses a light line and ties the turnbuckle open sides together. They can't move or turn and there is nothing to snag on. Seems to work well.......


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

"Okay - but I guess you know what the REAL question is....how many of those did you win?"
The sad answer is 0. 2nd once and 3rd several times. Extremely difficult race to win. Classes are usually 12-20 boats. 7 of these races in the 70s class where the competition and equipment is first rate. That is me steering in the pic.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Very nice, dude. Very nice. What's the boat? I'm still lousy at recognizing makes.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

midnightsailor
Here's the link to the story of the corroded electric drive.
E-POD 3000+ - Petaris' Photos


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

To weigh in here on some of this:
-Tying the turnbuckles together does not work as the threaded stud on the shroud end of the turnbuckle is free to loosen and the windings of the wire rigging will provide the force to loosen it.

- Sanduskysailor is absolutely right that Ring dings can in fact get snagged and pulled out by flailing rigging, and it surprising how quickly a stud will unwind from a turnbuckle, at the very least loosing the stay and at the worst allowing the stay to come undone. That said I have used them for years and only seen that happen a couple times. If I sailed in an area where the conditions were routinely windy and the chop worse (like San Francisco) I would not use ring-dings. Here on the Chesapeake they work well enough but as I write this I am thinking that I have procastinated too long in making up a set of PVC turnbuckle covers. 

-While I have used ring dings for years to keep the turnbuckle from turning, I haved always used cotter pins in the clevis pins. 

- Have also sailed on boats that had the velco wrap pins. This really is a good product for a one design boats like a J-22 (although J-22's around here seem to use tubular turnbuckles with locknuts a set-up that I don't especially like for a bigger boat) or J-105 where rig tension is important and gets changed with some degree of frequency.

-I don't think that velcro wrap pins, ring-dings or cotter pind make much of difference once the rig comes down. Jettisoning a rig is a bear, but trying to un-turn a turnbuckle after the rig comes down gets nearly imposible. Whether you cut off a ring-ding, cotter key or a wrapped cotter, that is the least of the problem. The nearly impossible part is turning loose the turnbuckle body. I had to do this on a Folkboat with the stub of mast threatening to pierce the planking and it was incredibly difficult. I cannot begin to imagine backing off a turnbuckle with the rig down on a bigger boat.

The standard advice for offshore cruisers is to carry big enough bolt cutters to sheer off the standing rigging, but if you have ever tried to sheer a heavy peice of rigging wire even with a very high quality bolt cutter it is not exactly like slicing butter. Add to that the impossible motion of a sailboat without its rig, I am not sure that there is a good solution for a good size boat to jetison its rig quickly. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## midnightsailor (May 23, 2003)

*yep no plastic but I did detect some wood!!*

Mitiempo, thanks so much for posting that link to those installation and post use pictures. I am astonished other than that I have no comment.....well the word denial does come to mind


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

"Very nice, dude. Very nice. What's the boat? I'm still lousy at recognizing makes." Nelson Marek 68. Other boats in class were all SC70s (also 68'). Pic- the N/M rafted outside a SC70 in the Black River


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Jeff_H said:


> -This really is a good product for a one design boats like a J-22 or J-105 where rig tension is important and gets changed with some degree of frequency.


Thanks Jeff for backing me and repeating what I said three days ago. You too Sandusky.



> Also popular with the racing crowd that adjust and tune a lot.


Sandusky, you ever do the Supermac?
Twice as much fun from what I understand.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*Many surveyors will flunk rings.*



Jeff_H said:


> I've used rings for years since they make adjustment easy. There is a risk of catching them with a sheet (especially when I used the blade on my boat). I have not taped them since that defeats the purpose of using a ring in the first place. A favorite set up for protecting the Ring-dings from snagging sheets and sails is to make a sleeve out of PVC tubing. I leave the tubing open at the top and can slide the tube up out of the way to work on the turnbuckle and let it drop down when I am done. That said, I have never gotten around to making a set for Synergy.
> 
> I am also a big believer in backing off the rigging tension and putting lanacote on the threads of the turnbuckle to minimize crevice corrosion.
> 
> Jeff


A sheet can catch them and there goes the rig. Other posters mentioned the same. Not a AYBC recommend practice, but common none the less.

I am also sure that this depends on the ring - some are terrible, some are solid.

You can get away with the darnedest things. If well taped, nothing will fail.


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## captbillc (Jul 31, 2008)

the shroud turnbuckles have locknuts on my 30 footer. i use the split rings with several turns in them on the bottom end at the chain plates and they work OK. has any one had this type come loose ?


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I fully confess to not using the product and going with the fact that everything Velcro i have ever owned has had issues with staying closed within 6 months of regular use and has turned many otherwise fine pieces of gear useless


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Sanduskysailor said:


> "Very nice, dude. Very nice. What's the boat? I'm still lousy at recognizing makes." Nelson Marek 68. Other boats in class were all SC70s (also 68'). Pic- the N/M rafted outside a SC70 in the Black River


Wow. Personally, as I've said elsewhere, I'm a big N/M fan. Nice ride.

And 2nd/3rd in the Mac ain't bad pal!


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

To be clear, N/M is not mine, I was just crew. Last year did the Chicago Mac at other end of the spectrum, Morgan N/M 43. 2 showers and and a tub. Yikes. Did I say slow.


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