# Cedar on a Sailboat?



## JedNeck (Sep 22, 2011)

Teak is the bell of the ball for good reason but I was wondering if there is a reason I don't hear about cedar being used much?

I am about to do so interior work on Makai my Cal21 and love the smell of cedar. It is readily available here in the NW and I might know a guy that knows a guy. It will be mainly ornamental and I will be using plywood for structual bulkhead stuff. 

Are there any huge drawbacks to using cedar?


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

They build canoes out of it... Interested to hear others feed back.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

There are many species of cedar. Northern white cedar was one of the best planking woods back in the heyday of wooden boats: strong, light, and VERY rot resistant. I can remember rebuilding old wood boats where the only thing that would not crumble in your hand would be the white cedar. Red cedar is aromatic and very pretty but also very soft. It would not take much abuse in a well used spot. I just built an Adirondack Guide Boat from Western Red Cedar. It is a very good material for the hulls of light craft because of its weight, strength and rot resistance but would not have the strength of Sitka Spruce or some fir species for spars. Red Cedar could be used in boat interiors where the strength and hardness of Teak or other hardwoods is not needed. Northern White has become almost unavailable in lengths > about 8'. Sad. My old 1936 42' Wheeler and a couple of Lightnings were planked with the stuff. Back 40 years ago it was readily available.


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

Cedar is commonly used to line the "walls" in hanging lockers since it smells so nice and resists rot. 
Also some boats have light strips varnished and used to cover again the "walls". These are usually varnished and cedar would work well there. Obviously any where where there may be abrasion etc. it would be too soft, for just decoration I would think OK.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I use red cedar frequently for projects where strength isn't an issue.

Cockpit grate:










Framing for galley extension and knife rack (in background):


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

The "cedar" used to line cabinets etc. is known as "Aromatic cedar" but is actually Juniper. It can be identified by the purple swirls running through it.

Red cedar is a very good wood for cold moulding hulls. It is extremely light, rot resistant and good looking but pretty soft. The softness is the main reason it isn't used more for boat interiors - it dents VERY easily. Colour matching takes a lot of work as well.

I have found Yellow cedar to have a sickening smell - after cutting it a bit I become quite nauseous.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

i owned and operated a sawmill for atleast 30 years,eastern red cedar is one of my favorite woods and i use it on my boat whenever possible,the oder can be overpowering but eventually lessens,mr jones is quite right,it isn't a strong wood and shouldn't be used where strenght is required but its as pretty as any wood i know of,btw the white sapwood isn't particularly rot resistant


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

CS used it in the hanging lockers on my previous 36 and current 40. Now if I can just find a 44.
Jim


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

SloopJonB said:


> The "cedar" used to line cabinets etc. is known as "Aromatic cedar" but is actually Juniper. It can be identified by the purple swirls running through it.
> 
> Red cedar is a very good wood for cold moulding hulls. It is extremely light, rot resistant and good looking but pretty soft. The softness is the main reason it isn't used more for boat interiors - it dents VERY easily. Colour matching takes a lot of work as well.
> 
> I have found Yellow cedar to have a sickening smell - after cutting it a bit I become quite nauseous.


 Yellow cedar is a common name for white cedar (arbor vitae). It IS somewhat toxic. The dust may well make you sick, especially if exposed for extended periods. Some native tribes used it for medicinal purposes. It has a lot of nasty chemicals in it which is why it's so rot resistant. I've discovered that cutting/sanding quite a few woods, like ebony i.e., have toxic effects.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

True cedar is of the species Cedrus, only 4 varieties I know of, now if I can remember all four, Liabanii, ie Cedars of Lebonon reference in the bible, deodora, Atlantica and brevifolia.....had to look the last one up! Members of the Pineaceae(pine) family

Some like the W Red cedar, Thuja plicata, or members of the juniper Cupressaceae family, Alaska Yellow cedar is Chamacyparis nootkatensis, I'm seeing it with a species of Callitropsis on wikopedia, altho I usually see it at nurseries I by material from as I said it initially. Incense cedar/ Calocedrus decurens is the one I see the most.....there are a few other species of incense cedar........

W Red cedar is used, as is Eastern red cedar on boats, as is other types of the Juniper version of cedar. Not sure if the TRUE cedars ie Cedrus sp are used in boats or not.....

Marty


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We've used cedar battens on the ceilings (hull lining) of two boats with good effect.. but this is another no-strength-required application. It can look surprisingly close to teak with the right finish. And even if left light it can provide a pleasing contrast.

As a softwood it may 'shrink and swell' more than hardwoods with humidity changes...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

blt2ski said:


> True cedar is of the species Cedrus, only 4 varieties I know of, now if I can remember all four, Liabanii, ie Cedars of Lebonon reference in the bible, deodora, Atlantica and brevifolia.....had to look the last one up! Members of the Pineaceae(pine) family
> 
> Some like the W Red cedar, Thuja plicata, or members of the juniper Cupressaceae family, Alaska Yellow cedar is Chamacyparis nootkatensis, I'm seeing it with a species of Callitropsis on wikopedia, altho I usually see it at nurseries I by material from as I said it initially. Incense cedar/ Calocedrus decurens is the one I see the most.....there are a few other species of incense cedar........
> 
> ...


Alaska yellow cedar is the one I referred to as sickening me. It has a very fibrous, grainless texture. It is very soft but in a different way than western red - it has an almost spongy quality to it. It is apparently very good for planking hulls - very rot resistant. Hard to get here though - it all gets shipped to Japan apparently.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

I think that Port Orford cedar is (white?)lighter in colour and more spicey pungent than our BC yellow cedar .Red cedar grows on the lower altitudes while yellow stays quite high. the trees are nearly the same visually .Old growth yellow cedar has got to be just about the nicest wood to work with. Especially the odour! Only three characteristics keep in from perfect.Lemnoria (pinworms) think it's candy and it"s oiliness sheds enamel .Old fashioned aluminum paint is a decent undercoat topsides but bottom paint takes on a new importance. It's hard ,strong and stable but shows a pretty grain like Norwegian goat cheese.Really resists rot. Red cedar can show a pretty grain (slash cut) for interior panel and trim but unless saturation epoxied before the varnish will take on an attractive distressed look .Many of the older fish boats were planked above the boot top in cedar;fir below. Not much forest left here today so you can buy purple heart from the tropics at similar prices as local woods. Who da thunkit!


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

Geez, you guys sure know a lot about cedar !


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Actually Len, 

WRC is close to the look of AYC, but if you know what to look for, there is quite a difference. Take a bow of both, crunch them in your hand, WRC is uch nicer to smell, If you look on the back side of the needles, WRC has a bow tie green and white needles, and AYC does not have that look. I've also notice, AYC is a bit scrawnier due to growing in the higher elevations. Hence probably why the AYC is used for hull boards vs WRC, as gowing at a higher elevation and a bit farther north, the growing year is smaller, making it a bit denser and heavier than WRC per equal board ft etc. Altho where they intermingle, around me in Seattle, 1700-2200' or there abouts, they can look more the same than different, but take a low growth AYC compare to a WRC at sealevel, very distinct looking trees.

marty


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

I have been wood turning for many years:

Paul and Nancy's Creations Home

Long story short, after developing a bad cough that took over a year to get rid of, my doctor advised me that Western Red Cedar is VERY toxic and can do ir-reversible lung damage. End of working with it for me. Suggest you use the best respirator you can find and use it ALL the time.

Dabnis


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Historically, on the US east coast, the 'ceilings', which in wooden boat lingo is the planking on the interior of the hull framing, would be done in what was called Atlantic White Cedar (or a variant of that which was called juniper cedar in the south). I can't tell you what the Latin name is but it was a reasonably dense, rot resistant, and light weight wood. I have seen Western Red Cedar used as well. Western red cedar looks nicer if you are bright finishing, but its a little softer and does not seem to hold a finish as nicely as white cedar. I would not use cedar as a walking surface, and no matter where you use cedar you need to allow air movement to keep it dry, and allow for expansion since it swells more than most woods.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> Historically, on the US east coast, the 'ceilings', which in wooden boat lingo is the planking on the interior of the hull framing, would be done in what was called Atlantic White Cedar (or a variant of that which was called juniper cedar in the south). I can't tell you what the Latin name is but it was a reasonably dense, rot resistant, and light weight wood. I have seen Western Red Cedar used as well. Western red cedar looks nicer if you are bright finishing, but its a little softer and does not seem to hold a finish as nicely as white cedar. I would not use cedar as a walking surface, and no matter where you use cedar you need to allow air movement to keep it dry, and allow for expansion since it swells more than most woods.


Good point, all of the Cedars I have used are fairly soft, much like Sugar Pine.
really nice and easy to work with but scratches and dents easily, not very durable or wear resistant, does smell good though!!

Dabnis


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## patrscoe (May 9, 2011)

Eliminating the smell issue, Cedar would be very soft with a mid 300 density. For ceilings and side battens, may be fine but for cabinetry, may not hold up without getting dents and dings in the wood, screws stripping out, etc... If you like the look of cedar or the rot resistance, what about Cypress or Iroko. Also, rot resistance wood in today's market is overated. Cedar and Cypress and some others are harvest through farms where the trees are design to grow much faster then "old growth" woods. Most trees have some type of rot resistance even Oak. 
They use to find cypress river logs that were over 500 years old, still in perfect condition and some old growth cypress trees grow to 1000 yrs old, obviously in swamps and isolated areas. Sorry, went off on a tangent about woods. Anyways, just my two cents.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Many of the early American small craft were planked with different sub species of White Pine or White Cedar but the interesting aspect of this is that these old growth trees have almost no parallel to what you can get your hands on now. When the boat builders of those days chose vertical grain softwoods to build a boat, the qualities such as strength and durability were, I believe, very different from what can be expected from these same species today if you can even get them. I found some very old vertical grain Red Cedar to build my Guideboat which made a very pretty boat but my first choice was White Cedar. There seems to be nothing of reasonable quality to be had in long lengths.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

smurphny said:


> Many of the early American small craft were planked with different sub species of White Pine or White Cedar but the interesting aspect of this is that these old growth trees have almost no parallel to what you can get your hands on now. When the boat builders of those days chose vertical grain softwoods to build a boat, the qualities such as strength and durability were, I believe, very different from what can be expected from these same species today if you can even get them. I found some very old vertical grain Red Cedar to build my Guideboat which made a very pretty boat but my first choice was White Cedar. There seems to be nothing of reasonable quality to be had in long lengths.


This is VERY true. There's a big difference in both the look and mechanical properties of old growth vs. new growth woods. It's why so much wood is salvaged from old factories today for use in restoring historic homes. Old growth wood is a completely different animal.

But to get back to Jedneck's original question, a 21 footer isn't a liveaboard cruiser so the interior isn't going to see the same kind of use. If you can get white cedar inexpensively I'd say go for it.


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## JedNeck (Sep 22, 2011)

Thanks everyone...I didn't know what I didn't know.


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