# Help with first boat purchase



## Dax246 (Aug 14, 2020)

Hi, I’m new to sailing and need advice on a first boat purchase. I have been reading a tremendous amount on the internet and somethings are making me second guess my desire to get into sailing, this hole osmosis, delamination thing in particular. In my research I have found that the problem is predominately with polyester resin hulls but vinalester resin does not have that problem, my question is, is that true? upon further research I found Tartan boats are supposedly made from vinalester, so another question is are Tartan boats not subject to osmosis? Here’s my problem, I worry about things, I would rather spend the extra money for the peace of mind knowing my boat is not rotting while it sits in the water. Second part of my question is if the Tartan manufacturing process is the solution, I have been looking at a 2006 Tartan 345, any advice on if this would be suitable choice for my sailing area? I live on Long Island New York so I would be sailing the Long Island sound mostly and around Montauk to the ocean, and an occasional trip to Cape Cod when I’m more experienced. I would appreciate any help thanks


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

I think the 2006 would be a 3400 model but still if you can buy one that is a beautiful boat, great sailing boat . Looked at one to buy and got to sail it , but just a bit long for our slip. I would not worry about a Tartan hull made after the 90s


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## Dax246 (Aug 14, 2020)

Yes it’s the 3400, Thanks for the correction, is there any other boats I should be looking at?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

First of all, the blister issue occurred mainly in boats built in the 1970's and 1980's, and tended to be worse on European boats than US boats from that era, with some notable exceptions. 

The extent to which it is a problem will vary from boat to boat and also where the boat is stored.(Warm water, leaving a boat in the water year round for years in a row, and fresh water greatly increase the likelihood that a boat will develop blisters.)

On the vast majority of boats with blisters the blisters never get past the gelcoat and veil laminate, and so are not structural. On those boats, when you haul out, it is pretty easy to chisel out the bad laminate, let it dry and grind out a taper on the edges of the spot and fill the area with thickened epoxy. It is a pretty quick and easy process. Pretty much every time you haul you will need to do this, but it is a pretty minor procedure that should not be a deal killer.

On the other hand, there are boats out there with much more serious blister problems that extend deep into the laminate. The only cure on that is to do a deep peel and glass over it with epoxy or vinylester resin fiberglass laminate. While that is considered the most reliable fix, I am skeptical that is a permanent fix and would not buy a boat with that bad an issue.

Delamination is something entirely different. It is pretty rare but in most ways much more serious. A good surveyor should be able to detect it and advise you to walk away from that boat.

Tartan is a strange story. For reasons that were not completely understandable, at point in early 2000's and for a period that followed, Tartan experimented with what was sometimes described as a vinyl modified epoxy. Allegedly there were big structural and aesthetic issues with that material that ultimately resulted in lawsuits and Tartan going bankrupt.

Personally I would not put Tartans from that era on the'desirable' list because I don't like the naval architecture more than the alleged construction issues, but would consider those issues to be a contributing factor in scratching them off the list.

Jeff


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## Dax246 (Aug 14, 2020)

Hi Jeff, thanks for the response. So I guess your steering me away from Tartan cause they can have bigger issues than osmosis, ok what brands should I look at that would not develop an osmosis issue? I also get what your saying that blisters are not a big issue but if I can avoid it I would rather have a boat that will not develop that problem, thanks for any advice


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

There were a few well publicized issues with a few Tartans during their switch to epoxy construction. Pretty sure the 3400 was not one of the models that had issues. I looked at a 3500 when I was looking a little over 10 years ago and liked the boat. For LI Sound sailing, pretty much any boat of that size range will be fine. When I was younger, I cruised for weeks at a time on LIS and out to Block and the Vineyard on a Pearson 26. My current Cal 33-2 is a palace compared to the P26. 

The osmosis issue is only one of many many things to consider when looking at different boats. Pretty much any boat built from the mid-80s on is probably OK as that's when the switch to better gelcoat took place.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Do you actually know how to sail and have some experience? If not, a 35 foot boat is a pretty big boat to learn on and a pretty costly investment to be learning on.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> First of all, the blister issue occurred mainly in boats built in the 1970's and 1980's, and tended to be worse on European boats than US boats from that era, with some notable exceptions.
> 
> The extent to which it is a problem will vary from boat to boat and also where the boat is stored.(Warm water, leaving a boat in the water year round for years in a row, and fresh water greatly increase the likelihood that a boat will develop blisters.)
> 
> ...


Curious what you see that makes you not like the naval architecture in the Tartan 3400. I sailed the boat and did not see anything that was done different then most boats of this period. i liked the light wind performance and found it a very easy boat to sail when the wind got to almost 20. self tacking jib and park avenue boom made sail handling very easy. though not a fan of cabin top travelers because you have to go forward to use the winch but it did seem to work well. boat felt more like dingy then most 34' boats. would be an easy big boat to learn to sail on. docking was very easy, it had plenty of power and no prop walk with the saildrive and would pivot on the keel making turing into the slip on a narrow fairway easy.


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## Dax246 (Aug 14, 2020)

Hi, thank for the response, no I don’t know how to sail yet, I’m a huge researcher and planner, I plan on taking lessons from a school I found in Sag Harbor. At this point I’m still trying to decide if sailing is something I want to get into or not, I’ve read some horror stories about blistering and huge expensive repairs only to have it come back again, I know boat ownership is an expense and requires maintenance but I’m trying to figure out how much expense and headache, and is there options to avoid some of these problems, thanks and any advice is appreciated


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Dax246 said:


> Hi, thank for the response, no I don't know how to sail yet, I'm a huge researcher and planner, I plan on taking lessons from a school I found in Sag Harbor. At this point I'm still trying to decide if sailing is something I want to get into or not, I've read some horror stories about blistering and huge expensive repairs only to have it come back again, I know boat ownership is an expense and requires maintenance but I'm trying to figure out how much expense and headache, and is there options to avoid some of these problems, thanks and any advice is appreciated


In your situation my suggestion would be to buy a 15 foot or smaller very cheap dinghy that's pretty beat up, but serviceable. This is not going to be a boat to take your friends out on, but instead you will be crashing into docks, running aground and even tipping her over on occasion. This is the boat to make all your beginner's mistakes on, before you buy a nicer, more expensive boat. And believe me, if you start with the more expensive boat, you are still going to make all the same mistakes, classes or not, but the repair bills will be much more expensive, and if you load the boat up with friends, there is the possibility of someone getting hurt. Sailing isn't rocket science, but it does take a lot of sailing to get it.

This is how almost every professional sailor of note learned to sail, not through some expensive cookie cutter course.

Along with your little beater, I would highly recommend a great little book called Royce's Sailing Illustrated, a fun yet very comprehensive book filled with important information for the novice sailor or experienced professional. No massive preachy tome this, just a well put together book with everything from rigging, docking and even splicing. I've been using it to teach sailing for over 45 years, and still refer to it now and then, myself.
As you gain sailing experience, and spend time with other sailors, either just chatting, or sailing on their boats, you'll gain a much better idea of the bigger boat you will actually want to own.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Go take that lesson and you will find out if you like it or not, doubt you will not like it. you have to decide if you are the type that just goes and gets a book and a beater boat and learn by preceding to bash about the marina until you learn how to sail or are you the type that would be better off getting a instructor and use the well maintained school boats that are picked because they are good teaching boats. the size of the boat does not really matter but having a good boat and instructor will make learning more fun and you will learn the proper way and a lot faster. I learned when i was 4 and sailed the bay solo at 6 and have been teaching sailing off and on for about 50 years. the hardest ones to teach the correct way to sail are the people that tried to teach themselves. because they have many bad habits that are hard to correct.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

overbored said:


> Curious what you see that makes you not like the naval architecture in the Tartan 3400.


I think he said he actually said something positive or neutral about the architecture, but the quality of the architecture does not outweigh the possible structural issues.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

overbored said:


> well maintained school boats


I think that is an oxymoron.

I agree with the rest of your post though.:
Join a school/club, learn right from the beginning. Use their boats and figure out what you want from your own boat. Worry about blisters later.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I agree that getting some sailing experience is strongly recommended before buying something like a Tartan 3400. Take a sailing course and then charter a boat. Or buy a smaller less expensive bost. Something really popular like a Catalina 30 that should be easy to sell if you decide sailing isn't for you.


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## Dax246 (Aug 14, 2020)

Thanks for the advice, I’m going to schedule the asa courses


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Dax246 said:


> Thanks for the advice, I'm going to schedule the asa courses


The classes can be learned all in one week course. I suggest avoiding this route. Take them one month apart and sail as much as you can in between. Each class will introduce you to a bigger boat with more complexities to learn. Also as much fun it is to sail a big boat, but sailing a Capri 22 often the smallest boat in a club is also a lot of fun not to be missed.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Dax246 said:


> Thanks for the advice, I'm going to schedule the asa courses


I'm not a huge fan of ASA courses right out of the gate. Without a bit of time on the water a lot of the knowledge won't sink in or make sense. I was a windsurfer for many years and stepped up to a 33 foot boat as my first boat. I took an ASA group course before that with 4 others on board. I found everything to be quite simple and intuitive really, the rest of the class, not at all. There was no way any of the other 4 were going to be able to sail a keel boat any time soon. I know a windsurfer only has one sail, but it taught me everything I needed to know about how to work with the wind angles and what a sail should look like when it's properly full. Even a little sunfish would be great to have. You can find one for $500 and be out there tomorrow. But if you have the means to buy a Tartan and pay for a lot of private lessons, that may work, but it will be...work.


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## Tugslife (Jul 18, 2020)

Good timing I guess, I just bought and closed on a 37c this past Friday. I’ve sailed twice before , on someone else boat, and once to the survey to be hauled out , the broker was concerned. I was not , Common sense and paying attention to details goes along way, we Picked up our boat, sailed it back to our marina, sailed Saturday. Hit 6 knots. And healed to starboard until my wife got nervous , I was not .. we are handling it just fine .


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## Dax246 (Aug 14, 2020)

Hi Tugslife, where do you sail? I’ll be sailing on Long Island sound, 98% if the time there is light wind on the sound and it’s wide open, I think it’s a great place to learn, I’ve since changed my mind as what boat to buy, I’m looking at the Catalina 30 to 32 foot boats, much more reasonably priced,


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

All boats have “ issues” , Tartan included. Interior are beautiful and well done. Above average sailors though depends on the model. I liked the older S&S models especially the 37.

taking ASA courses is only a negative if you think you can just sail after them. Hands on experience repeated helps build experience. While common sense and attention to detail can go along way it can give some a false sense of security that they think they can apply that to all disciplines. You don’t know what you don’t know. You can be a sailer who only gets by if common sense was the only criteria of a good safe sailor. A thirty seven foot boat is very forgiving and also can cause yourself and others injury if not handled correctly. 

not sure why you would cast aside and experienced sailors concern with a cavalier attitude. I’m sure you will be able to muddle through and learn with your way of doing it. Perhaps taking an experienced sailor with you or learning from one would speed up your learning process. But of course you have to be open to that and admit that everything is not self taught through common sense. 

experience in sailing is the best teacher.

congrats on your new boat. The 37T can be a great one in the hands of a capable sailor


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## Tugslife (Jul 18, 2020)

Dax246 said:


> Hi Tugslife, where do you sail? I'll be sailing on Long Island sound, 98% if the time there is light wind on the sound and it's wide open, I think it's a great place to learn, I've since changed my mind as what boat to buy, I'm looking at the Catalina 30 to 32 foot boats, much more reasonably priced,


destin Florida area, I'm looking to sail to bahamas and Virgin Islands also. Hopefully within a year , i am 5 hrs drive from my boat. So. I have to make the most of my time. my Boat is heavy , in which I'm glad. Because it will handle better in rough seas , I have a marina neighbor whom has the Catalina 32 ,, it's a nice boat .. spacious salon and cockpit..


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