# Propane Outboards?



## Tanley (Aug 20, 2009)

Has anyone actually seen one in operation? I noticed a thread by bljones about converting a gas outboard to propane, but this is commercially available.

Just curious, I'm not an early adopter for this kind of thing. Rather wait for 2nd or 3rd generation to see if it's a viable option. Couldn't find specs for the burn rate yet.






LEHR - Propane Powered Outboard Engines from [URL=http://vimeo.com/derema]Derema Design on Vimeo.

[/URL]

LEHR

LEHR - Environmentally Friendly Technology


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## ovb (Feb 15, 2012)

I guest I am a purist....just like with BBQ's ....I'll stick with charcoal....


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

eh. the above motors are outboard and the fuel tanks are out in the open and in a open boat. Not very much more dangerous then someone smoking while running the engine. 

Propane in closed spaces is at least as dangerous as gasoline. ANY fuel that's highly volatile and or heavier then air, is the danger with engine rooms and compartments and bilges.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Well, that's interesting. Apparent upside of propane would seem to be the elimination of clogged up fuel jets, from old, gummy fuel. Here in Michigan, or course we're seasonal with our outboard use, so that could be an advantage. 

Getting additional fuel would be a pain in the neck, unless a reasonably sized fuel container goes a looooooong way.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

hang the one pound cylinders over the side and use them as fenders LOL


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## ovb (Feb 15, 2012)

I use a small outboard with a internal tank...I can "slosh" the motor and take a look into the tank to see how much fuel that I have...would you have to carry one of those heavy as bag of bowling balls and just as handy tanks with you? or may be use those canisters that you use on your camp stove...just screw one on to the motor. I worked in a warehouse with a propane powered fork lift tools were needed to change the tank and of course they would walk off and I already can hear the sound of a adjustable wrench splashing into the drink...yes it was clean running but the electric fork lift was cleaner and quieter and when done with that we would just plug it in....


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

ovb said:


> I guest I am a purist....just like with BBQ's ....I'll stick with charcoal....


Go ahead and be a purist, but I think charcoal powered outboards suck! 

MedSailor


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

So if you cook drift wood in a burner in the middle of the dingy and pipe the wood gas to the outboard (4 stroke) your fuel bill would be drastically reduced. A 5 gallon pail of sawdust could troll you all day .


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## Tanley (Aug 20, 2009)

More details from Cruising World and new brochures/specs on the Lehr website (~37 pounds, 72cc). Some mixed reviews out there on their other products, but it's good to see an enterprenuer out there willing to take risks.

Go Green With Lehr | Cruising World

"The new quiet-running four-stoke Lehr propane-powered outboards created a real buzz in Miami, taking Green Product honors from West Marine and recognition from the judges for the National Marine Manufacturer's Innovation Awards. Lehr moved on from its lawn-and-garden propane product line by introducing two small outboards at the show, a 2.5- and a 5-horsepower model that can run off either camping gas canisters or larger propane tanks similar to what one would use to power, say, a barbecue. The 2.5-horsepower short-shaft model will run wide open (4,000 rpm) for about an hour on a camping gas canister, which is inserted into an opening in the engine's cover. Throttle back to 3,000 rpm and you'll more than double the run time. A 20-pound propane bottle will power the engine for about 50 hours, or roughly the same run time as a conventional outboard and 5-gallon tank. The more powerful model comes in both long- and short-shaft configurations. Notes Lehr founder and CEO, Capt. Bernardo Herzer, the engines will cost you about half as much to run as a gasoline-powered outboard because propane is less expensive than gas. Better yet, CO2 and carbon monoxide emissions are greatly reduced. The first shipment of engines from the Los Angeles-based company is on its way to dealers. Average price for the 2.5-horsepower model will be just under $1,000; expect to find the 5-horsepower engine for about $1,600. The company expects to develop larger engines, too; look for one in the 10-horsepower range later this year. Lehr, www.golehr.com"


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Easy winterization, no stabil in the tank, better throttle response, and less weight for the same range...there's a lot of potential here.
Pwer might be down slightly, but probably still better than a 2 stroke that is running on dirty plugs because the mix has been eyeballed for 10 years.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

If you have a propane powered stove, this means that you have one less fuel to carry with you. Here is what I currently have to carry:

Diesel - in tank
Propane - in locker
Two-stroke Gas/Oil/Stabil mix - in spare propane locker

The Lehr would eliminate the need for #3.

That, and not having to worry about a gummed up carb, makes it appealing to me.

Also, I believe that they run on the 1lb disposable cylinders.

Unfortunately, like any other 4 stroke, they will require periodic oil changes...


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Lehr seems to be doing a nice weedwacker for Sears which is pretty inpressive BUT i gotta be a littel bit concerned about who is making the base outboard ?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

acarter92 said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, but a 5hp motor "should be" 5hp whether it's powered by gas or propane. So maybe it's a little bigger displacement than a 5hp gas, but the end result is the same and should have just as much power.
> 
> Just my 2 cents
> 
> Austin


I thought about that after I posted, but figured somebody smarter then me would correct me. Meanwhile, I am baking bagels and making beef stew. That sorta had (has) my attention.
5 hp is 5 hp. I wonder what the torque is like?


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## CoralReefer (Jul 20, 2006)

I saw this on Ship Shape TV. From the demo it looked real nice. Burn equivalent was stated to be 1# propane equal to 1 gallon of gas. Has a connector on the front of the engine to connect larger propane tanks. They said that they produced the entire engine with larger HP's to come soon. Great idea looking forward to how this does in the market place.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

bljones said:


> I thought about that after I posted, but figured somebody smarter then me would correct me. Meanwhile, I am baking bagels and making beef stew. That sorta had (has) my attention.
> 5 hp is 5 hp. I wonder what the torque is like?


My brother had a Ford F-150 that was propane powered. It is actually a pretty easy conversion to a carburated engine. His truck was about as responsive, torquey, and had about as much power as a gas truck. Basically it felt just the same to drive as gas. It also got about the same MPG per gallon of propane as it did as a gas/petrol powered pickup (natural gas conversions get about 1/2 the efficiency per gallon as propane).

I noticed that NOWHERE on their website did they mention the efficiency or estimated usage of propane. How far can we go on a tank anyway???? I emailed the company that very question and will post the response here.

I'm personally quite interested because it would completely eliminate the need to carry around gasoline. I'd much rather only carry 2 fuels than 3. On the other hand, if the efficiency is poor, lugging propane tanks around is a bear and I hear it can be hard to source propane in far off places.

MedSailor


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"A 20-pound propane bottle will power the engine for about 50 hours, or roughly the same run time as a conventional outboard and 5-gallon tank. ... Notes Lehr founder and CEO, Capt. Bernardo Herzer, the engines will cost you about half as much to run as a gasoline-powered outboard because propane is less expensive than gas."

Obviously this is technology from Area51, because a "20" pound propane bottle is usually filled to something like 17 pounds now that the "new" safety valves are in them all. And at something like $20 per fill, that would make them dollar for dollar even with a five gallon gasoline fill at $4/gallon, which is marina pricing not road pricing. yet.

Burning cleaner, yes. No degunking, yes. Handy for a lake boat when you've already got two 20# bottles on the deck for your grill. But this is the first time I've heard the fuel densityof propane and gasoline are the same, I'd expect a 20# propane bottle to last only half as long as a five gallon gasoline tank.


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## shanedennis (Feb 10, 2012)

How cool!

I would not hate outboards so much if I could eliminate the gas/petrol related issues. I have been running a trolling motor on my inflatable but the concentrated weight of the battery does not work well and batteries take too long to charge when off the grid.

The idea of running the tender on the 16.4 oz cartridges is great. The 16.4 oz cartridges are refillable - see:
Propane Refill Kit - Refill Propane Bottles with Ease!

If nothing else this gives me an excuse to go to West Marine. Anyone know how long the backorder queue is?


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I want to run a 5Hp motor 50 hours on 5 gallons of anything


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> "A 20-pound propane bottle will power the engine for about 50 hours, or roughly the same run time as a conventional outboard and 5-gallon tank. ... Notes Lehr founder and CEO, Capt. Bernardo Herzer, the engines will cost you about half as much to run as a gasoline-powered outboard because propane is less expensive than gas."
> 
> Obviously this is technology from Area51, because a "20" pound propane bottle is usually filled to something like 17 pounds now that the "new" safety valves are in them all. And at something like $20 per fill, that would make them dollar for dollar even with a five gallon gasoline fill at $4/gallon, which is marina pricing not road pricing. yet.
> 
> Burning cleaner, yes. No degunking, yes. Handy for a lake boat when you've already got two 20# bottles on the deck for your grill. But this is the first time I've heard the fuel densityof propane and gasoline are the same, I'd expect a 20# propane bottle to last only half as long as a five gallon gasoline tank.


Do you know if that quote is for the 2.5 or 5HP motor? Also I wonder what throttle they're talking about. Half? Full?

MedSailor


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Anything that uses the 1 lbs bottles as fuel is NOT environmentally friendly. The bottles are disposable, which means they go in a land fill if you are lucky. Most landfills, at least in Canada, won't take them, and they need to be disposed of at a hazardous waste depot, and they charge to take them, about the same price as they cost to buy.

If you convert an outboard to propane, make sure it uses the refillable bottles if you are concerned about the environment. Refillable bottles come in sizes as small as 5 lbs.


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## zeta (Dec 29, 2010)

I do not understand how in any way it would be more fuel efficient than gas as propane is approx. 30% less efficient. Running 50 hrs on 5 gal. under a load is a little far fetched. 1 lb canister of propane is roughly 1 qt of gasoline (4.23 lb propane = 1 gal of petro). Can't see a 5hp running very long on 1 lb of propane, should be about 30% less run time on a qt of gas. 

Again, IMNSHO the ability to carry a 20lb fiberglass propane tank to run outboard, grill, stove, and a small generator is a big plus, especially by a cruising trailer sailor that enjoys small boats and camping in them and/or on shore--hey, I know someone just like that


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Having owned several pieces of equipment that were powered with propane and after several long discussions with propane dealers I can confidently say that like Zeta says above propane is less efficient than gasoline. The dealers all told me to count on at least a 15% decrease in mileage and horsepower. We had some identical trucks so making side by side comparisons was easy; the propane trucks had noticeably less power and couldn't finish a long shift on the fuel they carried even though they had larger capacity fuel tanks than the gas versions. That, coupled with the hassle of fueling and very hard starting in cold weather made us give up on propane. The engines tended to last forever though and the oil was still clean when it was time to change it. I would think that an outboard run on propane would work OK if you don't mind having a big propane tank in the boat and never end up somewhere needing fuel that doesn't carry propane. Reliability is more important to me than anything else in an outboard so I would want to know what engine it actually is (who made it) before being converted to propane.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

It appears a gallon of propane only has 73% as much energy as a gallon of gasoline, so milage should suffer:
Fuel Energy Content and Unit Conversion Tables

Also, as temperature drops, the propane cannot change state from liquid to solid as rapidly, so you may not get enough propane vapor to your engine and output would drop- the change of state is dependent on temperature and the surface area of the liquid in the propane tank- more surface area and higher the temp, the faster the liquid propane goes to vapor propane, which is what you need to burn in the engine.


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> Also, as temperature drops, the propane cannot change state from liquid to solid as rapidly, so you may not get enough propane vapor to your engine and output would drop- the change of state is dependent on temperature and the surface area of the liquid in the propane tank- more surface area and higher the temp, the faster the liquid propane goes to vapor propane, which is what you need to burn in the engine.


It goes from liquid to gas, not solid. Also this is not an issue for an outboard since they rarely get used in winter.

If there is a savings in cost it is because propane is cheaper than gasoline so even tho it has less energy and your mileage will suffer, you still come out ahead because it's 50% the cost of gasoline.

Propane is a fantastic alternative to gasoline for 4 stroke outboards, just don't use the 1 lbs disposable bottles.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

AllThumbs said:


> It goes from liquid to gas, not solid. Also this is not an issue for an outboard since they rarely get used in winter.
> 
> If there is a savings in cost it is because propane is cheaper than gasoline so even tho it has less energy and your mileage will suffer, you still come out ahead because it's 50% the cost of gasoline.
> 
> Propane is a fantastic alternative to gasoline for 4 stroke outboards, just don't use the 1 lbs disposable bottles.


Solid was typo. Not sure if propane is 50% the cost of gas- looks to be about the same price, 
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_nus_w.htm
and if you by in small quantities like 5 gallons from a hardware store, it can cost a lot more than gas.


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## Tanley (Aug 20, 2009)

AllThumbs said:


> Anything that uses the 1 lbs bottles as fuel is NOT environmentally friendly. The bottles are disposable, which means they go in a land fill if you are lucky.


Agreed, same here in the States. Coleman tried a recycling initiative several years ago and was relatively unsuccessful with it.

I won't comment on the legality or safety concerns of refilling these canisters (or the wisdom for that matter), but it can be done quite easily. The adapter is pretty cheap and can be purchased from Amazon or HF. You can Google "refill disposable propane cylinders" and find all the information one could ask for on the topic.

I'm not endorsing this practice, so hold the vitriol. Just pointing it out in case someone wants to be nominated for a Darwin Award. Gases, metal and pressure are not a great combination if handled improperly.

If you're curious as why the one pounders are considered non-refillable, read more here:

http://www.gizmology.net/dot39.htm


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Seems like it's cheaper in Canada. Energy Sector: Energy Sources

If you look at Toronto, Ontario, it's very close to half the price. It's probably because our Gasoline is a lot higher than yours.


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## copacetic (Apr 23, 2011)

I've used the HF adapter with no problems for the past year. We use the 1lbers for lanterns and grills when camping and occasionally here at the house. As to how safe the process is that would be up to the user to decide but like any other flamable material you don't want any sparks...but that's a no brainer


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## ovb (Feb 15, 2012)

It seems like a waste of time to build these things......some of the new 4 strokes are very clean and efficient. a 5 gallon gas tank is cheaper and easier to use that a 5 gallon propane tank...are these engines quieter than gas?....what I think what would be green and cool would be a electric that would use the battery pack like the cordless tools ....battery goes dead swap one out and recharge it...and a solar charger would make it sweet and easy to use....also I am a newbie to sailnet ...this is cool and you folks ROCK.....thanks....


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The only problem with re-using the 1# cylinders is that they are designed to be used and tossed. They can rust out internally, which would be a nasty surprise. And the "seal" is just a rubber ball in the neck, also not meant for great wear resistance or durability.

I'd have no qualms with re-using them--with care and with limited expectations. And the brass screw caps for them (sold in rv and cmaping stores) of course make the danger of a leaking valve much less.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

The whole point to me is getting around the problems E-10 fuel causes in limited use motors as the newer 3 star carbs foul if you look at them funny 

The outboard itself is clearly not a covereted name brand and is a chinese something as the price is way to low 

There is NO service or dealer network YET


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Price to low? 
Check Defender
2.5hp Tohatsu $833
6hp Tohatsu $1300 +/-

Propane
2.5hp $1000
5hp $1600


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Bubb

I seen to many off brands come and go and what makes a great weedwacker tends to be and epic fail in a saltwater outboard


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

ovb said:


> It seems like a waste of time to build these things......some of the new 4 strokes are very clean and efficient. a 5 gallon gas tank is cheaper and easier to use that a 5 gallon propane tank...are these engines quieter than gas?....what I think what would be green and cool would be a electric that would use the battery pack like the cordless tools ....battery goes dead swap one out and recharge it...and a solar charger would make it sweet and easy to use....also I am a newbie to sailnet ...this is cool and you folks ROCK.....thanks....


Voila:
Electric Outboard Motors


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Tohatsu makes Mercury and Evinrude. It's just a different sticker yo.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

AllThumbs said:


> Anything that uses the 1 lbs bottles as fuel is NOT environmentally friendly. The bottles are disposable, which means they go in a land fill if you are lucky. Most landfills, at least in Canada, won't take them, and they need to be disposed of at a hazardous waste depot, and they charge to take them, about the same price as they cost to buy.
> 
> If you convert an outboard to propane, make sure it uses the refillable bottles if you are concerned about the environment. Refillable bottles come in sizes as small as 5 lbs.


They come with refillable bottles. They can be run on disposable bottles.

Point well taken.


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## wlbutts (Mar 23, 2012)

RE: SailNet Community - View Profile: AllThumbs who said "Anything that uses the 1 lbs bottles as fuel is NOT environmentally friendly. The bottles are disposable, which means they go in a land fill if you are lucky. Most landfills, at least in Canada, won't take them, and they need to be disposed of at a hazardous waste depot, and they charge to take them, about the same price as they cost to buy."

I beg to differ, once emptied the 1 pound bottles weigh 14 ounces the same weight of steel and therefore the same environmental footprint of 6 Campbell Soup Cans

You can reduce this impact by refilling the small bottles

Mr. Heater Propane Tank Refill Adapter, Heaters & Accessories, Camp Essentials, Camping : Cabela's

They are easy to empy with a "needle valve tool" when you remove both the fill valve and the overfill valve they are only scrap metal. Our local scrap yards and propane dealers take the empty bottles without charge

Worst case senario, dispose in landfill with same environmental impact as 6 empty cans of Campbell Soup (weight 14oz steel).


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