# Looking for a stable 15-18' sailboat



## mgoltsman (Jul 10, 2013)

I rented a Hobie Wave at a resort and thought it was too much fun to not do again. Looking around for similarly built cats I decided that Hobie Getaway would be perfect for me, but it's too rich for my blood new and not available used where I live (upstate NY). 

Looking around the used sailboat market, the most similar choice that is widely available is Hobie 16, but it seems to have a hotrod reputation where a newbie sailor is as likely to flip it as not. I might take that chance myself, but I want to be able to put my boys on the boat and not freak them out so they never go near it again.

I found a nice solid Chrysler Buccaneer and an MFG Sidewinder that will be a bit more of a project. Both boats look rather similar to my eye as far as shape goes, though what do I know. Would much appreciate advice on which boat would be more stable and whether they would be more stable than a Hobie 16 - keep in mind I am a rather clueless newbie looking to start slow. Any other suggestions for easily transportable and easily riggable 15-18' boat type would also be greatly appreciated.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Only way to go slow, and more stable is to change design types...
Pretty much ALL centerboard monohulls will feel slower, than your cat... but they probably are LESS stable (I know counter intuitive).

Want REALLY stable? pick a tri-maran.

But honestly what you might want to consider is a swing keel boat, or really ANY keel boat.

Want a real stable 18 foot, monohull? Sorry I link to this only to show you what one looks like not to show you an ad - Victoria 18. Victoria 18 sailboat for sale It also has really nice lines.

Capri 18, Compac 19, Precision 18... Compac 16, Precision 165... these will be stable trailer sailor 16-18 foot boats... ALL of them will feel like slugs compared to a Hobie.

Nothing wrong with going to keelboat to get some stability for sailing.

The Buccaneer, is a really fast centerboard boat, but I wouldn't call it "stable." Nor is a lightning, or thistle, or any number of other small centerboarders. Don't get me wrong these are great boats to learn on, but you have to acknowledge that they can capsize, and that is part of the learning. If you want something that likely won't ever capsize, again, go keelboat.


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## CaribDream (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm guessing you will be trailering which means you will need to rig each time you launch. Stability was also a big need for me as I like to sail with my wife and we are relatively new too.

Check out American Sail. They have an American 14.6 and an 18 (centerboard monohulls). Open cockpit sloops, easy/quick to rig and built for more relaxed sailing rather than racing. 

I will each everyone here in that these types of boats are going to be slow compared to cats, but they make up for it in that you can actually bring things with you easily (ie radio cooler etc).

Good luck!


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## CaribDream (Jan 29, 2013)

As a side note... where in upstate NY are you? I grew up in the northern Adks and frequently go back to our summer house there.

...and if it's not NORTH of Albany, it ain't upstate!!! LOL - pet peeve


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Your kids will most likely have less fear then you! Get them good PFDs and let them "have at it!" Smaller cats and some dinghy type boats are easy to right if they have flotation.

Sailboats (keel type) are not stable in the sense of standing on a boat dock. The more sailboats lean over the more they resist "going over" because of weight of the keel or ballast and hull design; "weebels wobble but they don't fall down" Rounded, vee bottom, flare sided boats, canoes, even rocking chairs have what is called Secondary stability.

"Stable" boats like pontoon and catamaran types don't tip but when they do they reach a point where they just go over. (initial stability)

Boats with flat bottoms (skiffs, some power boats) also feel "stable" until they lean or are leaned over to the point of no return.

Most people new or feeling that uneasy feeling we've all had, want that initial stability because it feels safe. Only after practice and learning or pushing the envelope do we learn that when a sailboat leans it's because of it's secondary stability.

Many people never get used to that "boaty feeling" of secondary stability in sailing. Even the famous saying "Never stand up in a canoe" instills that primal fear of "going over"

I owned my boat 2 years before I got used to it's leaning over. (heeling) And I did know (in the back of my mind) that the more she leaned the more she would resist "going over"

good reading here; Stability Explained


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

how old are your boys. mine sailed on our cat since they were about 5. If you want a good cat for the money go with a Prindle or Hobie 18. they are lot more stable then the Hobie 16. Prindle 16 is a good choice more stable then the Hobie 16 and a little easier to rig then a 18


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## Michael K (Feb 27, 2006)

Monohulls and multihulls are such different animals. As such, you owe it to yourself to research (and experience) their differences BEFORE deciding on which type you want to own.

In the monohull camp you would be hard-pressed to find something more stable, forgiving and quick than a Flying Scot. The Bucc you mentioned may also be a good choice - I've never sailed one - but I know of a fellow who collected a fleet of them for his sailing school. They likely aren't as dry as a Scot but have a hull design apparently derivative of a Laser. In any case, try to imagine how easy it is to get back aboard after righting the boat as capsizing will be part of your learning curve. This is why I think Lasers are great to learn on.

In the multihull camp, I'd recommend a Prindle over a Hobie 16 for several reasons. Better build quality, a tad more buoyancy in the bows so pitchpoling is less likely, and a lower center of effort in the sail plan for more stability. In general, beach cats can be trickier to tack than monohulls of the same size, so you may want to seek out some instruction for that maneuver.

Good luck!


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## mgoltsman (Jul 10, 2013)

Thanks for the great advice folks! Reading some responses I think I need to clarify what I REALLY am trying to find out.

I am not looking for an ever-dry sailboat, I don't want to stick a mast on a pontoon boat or anything like that. I am pretty sure that the keel boats @SHNOOL suggested are nice but not what I am looking for. Firstly I would prefer to be able to beach the boat, but more importantly I want to be able to grow into a faster mode of sailing, even if that means splashing the boat a few times along the way.

My main concern is that I don't want to buy a boat that - as I heard about Hobie 16s and especially 14s - are all too easy to mishandle even if you are not trying to run them down to the wire. For instance, I heard that a Hobie 16 can pitchpole if it catches a wave even at moderate speed. Or, some boats may be very tricky to handle in certain situations (tack or go upwind or what not - sorry, too dumb to really know). 

Those are the concerns. If I overstate them (e.g. a Hobie 16 won't pitchpole unless you are flying a hull at 15+ knots), or if the Buccaneer is notoriously shifty on a jibe, or if either of them takes forever to rig, that's what I would like to know. 

Of the suggestions above, I think a Prindle 16 would be a much better choice for me than a Hobie 16 - I am a 210 lbs. tub-o-lard, so a Hobie 16 might simply not carry me. Unless I can find one, I will probably pick out of the available three (Buccaneer, AMF Sidewinder, Hobie 16), unless I hear something that makes them completely unacceptable. Right now I am leaning towards the Buccaneer because I hear it is among the more forgiving performance dinghies, and it is still in production so parts should be available much easier than for the AMF Sidewinder.

Thanks again for all the suggestions, I am sure I will be coming back for help on how to not flip whatever I buy quite so often 

Oh, and @CaribDream: I am in Rochester, NY - I think that still counts as upstate unless for you Long Islanders civilization ends 100 miles up the Hudson


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## CaribDream (Jan 29, 2013)

mgoltsman:1057108 said:


> Of the suggestions above, I think a Prindle 16 would be a much better choice for me than a Hobie 16 - I am a 210 lbs. tub-o-lard, so a Hobie 16 might simply not carry me.
> 
> Oh, and @CaribDream: I am in Rochester, NY - I think that still counts as upstate unless for you Long Islanders civilization ends 100 miles up the Hudson


Hey! I take offense to the 210 lb remark LOL.

Ah.... finally someone who understands there IS more to NY State than NYC!!! I went to school at RIT. Grew up about 2+ hours north of Syracuse.

That Prindle 16 looks like a sweet boat. Good luck.


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## mgoltsman (Jul 10, 2013)

CaribDream said:


> Hey! I take offense to the 210 lb remark LOL.
> 
> Ah.... finally someone who understands there IS more to NY State than NYC!!! I went to school at RIT. Grew up about 2+ hours north of Syracuse.


Ha! I went to RIT too! '91-'95 and again '96-99'. But 2 hours north of Syracuse is moose country even for us Rochesterians. Beautiful area though...

Oh, and I was only referring to myself as a tub-o-lard  You are I'm sure a heap of muscles and sinew.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

I've got a put a vote in for the H16. I've owned Hobie 16s for about 30 years. My current ride is 26 years old. This is the first thread in which I've ever heard anyone knock the quality of an H16. My boat has sailed thru it all from lakes to ocean, from screaming winds to get out the paddle. Even launched it off more breakers in Barnegat Inlet than I want to admit to and thru it all not one gear failure or boat problem. And, after all that time the boat still looks terrific!!!! 

The H16 IS a stable platform. I taught my 4 kids to sail on it. That said, it is meant to be sailed to the edge of control. Because of this some might say the boat has some bad habits. 

It will flip over- if you aren't flipping the boat on a regualr basis you aren't trying hard enough!!!! it is meant to be sailed fast and hard. if you sail it that way it's gonna go over every now and then. OTOH you don't have to sail it that way. For a three year period when my children were very young, the boat didn't flip once. Why didn't we flip the boat? Because we didn't sail it to the edge of control. We took fun family day sails. The boat's speed and heel angle are totally controlable. The point being, whoever is telling you the boat is unstable or has uncontrolable bad habits is not telling it like it is. The boat is almost half as wide as it is long. Stable it is!

The biggie in bad habits is the pitch pole. The boat can be pitch poled. Geez a Flying Scot can be pitchpoled! With the H16, again, controlable. In 30 years i can count how many times I've pitchpoled with two fingers. Does it happen? Yes! Is it a likely event? No! At least if you know how to avoid it. And it is easily avoidable in conditions that would cause it by triming the boat. We raced the boat for years ansd never tripped in a regatta racing it with the hammmer down! These days you can even buy attachments for the bows that will help prevent pitchpole. So pitch poling an H16 is a non starter in the for/against buy decision. 

Hobie16 vs Prindle - Prindle is a fine boat as is the Nacra 5.2. But IMO, the H16 is more user friendly. Less sharp edges higher drier ride, more parts availability, easier set up, etc. 

Beyond that the H16 is an excellent teaching platform. And of course it is a blast to sail!!!


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## mgoltsman (Jul 10, 2013)

@TJC45 - thanks for the advice! Exactly the sort of thing I wanted to hear. I will still look at a Prindle 16 just to compare, but this is exactly what I hoped to hear - that H16 is not as unwieldy as its reputation, except when you taunt it. In terms of availability, H16 is certainly the easy answer - even in our quiet neck of the woods at least a dozen change hands each season. And the two that I saw so far look new despite being 30 years old!

By the way, the Wave I rented at a resort - being a noob boat - had this spiffy bubble on top of its mast to prevent turtling. Do you know if something like that is available/possible for the H16? My biggest fear is that I flip it, bungle my first attempt to right it and end up digging that long mast into the silt 20" under water.

One last thing - do you think being on the heavier side might make H16 less of a fit for me? Those hulls look pretty slim and wickedly sickle-shaped - seems like my 200 lbs plus another 200 libs worth of kids (of course I would not dream of racing with such a load) might submerge the tramp! What might be a great platform for a 150 lbs sailor might not be so fitting for a heavier crew!


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

If you google "mast floats" you will find several of those bubble-type things. 
Mast Floats and Catamaran Righting Gear from Sailsport Marine

The club I'm in uses them on the daysailers. They present some windage and will slow you down a bit, so on the racing MCs we have a flotation jacket that slides over the top of the sail.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Michael K said:


> The Bucc you mentioned may also be a good choice - I've never sailed one - but I know of a fellow who collected a fleet of them for his sailing school. They likely aren't as dry as a Scot but have a hull design apparently derivative of a Laser.


Oh dear no.  Tho the creators deny it strenuously, the Chrysler Bucc18 is derivative of the venerable Flying Dutchman. As is the Flying Scot. The FS is much, *much* more stable than the Bucc. You'd have to really try to flip a Scot. I've dumped our Bucc several times. A Lightning is also more stable, given the weighted centerboard, but it's harder to right from turtled than the Bucc. I know some people have trouble standing the Bucc up, but I find it not too bad. Question is, what are the kids doing in the meantime?

The Buccaneer 18 is a fun, not-too-well-built dinghy* with a great & growing class association & some truly filthy habits. Upstate NY is actually a pretty good place for them, tho -- I grew up on the Finger Lakes & the wind patterns there favor the Bucc's good side. Also the Lightning, which of course was invented for those waters. Much better boat all around, the Lightning. That or the Scot would be first choice for what you describe. The Bucc18 will go a little faster in light conditions, but hiking is mandatory and it don't harden up until 45 degrees heel.

(*Statement does not apply to the new Bucc18s made by Nickels, which are quite fine.)



mgoltsman said:


> ...or if the Buccaneer is notoriously shifty on a jibe, or if either of them takes forever to rig, that's what I would like to know.... Right now I am leaning towards the Buccaneer because I hear it is among the more forgiving performance dinghies, and it is still in production so parts should be available much easier than for the AMF Sidewinder.


Yes, no, *emphatic* no, yes.

If you have specific Qs about the Bucc18, fire away. I don't generally promote them for family sailing, but that really depends on the family. Cockpit is cluttered, boom is low, handling is squirrely, and it ships quite a lot of water. On the plus side, it's dead simple to rig & sail, quite comfy in cockpit or on rail, goes like hell on a power reach, costs next to nothing, and can be fixed with baling wire. And Bucc sailors are right there with FS & Lightning people for niceness & helpfulness. Just for yuks, this is what a Bucc18 looks like in 20kts, when the idjit who's supposed be be steering (me) is fooling with a cheap camera.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

mgoltsman said:


> @TJC45 - thanks for the advice! Exactly the sort of thing I wanted to hear. I will still look at a Prindle 16 just to compare, but this is exactly what I hoped to hear - that H16 is not as unwieldy as its reputation, except when you taunt it. In terms of availability, H16 is certainly the easy answer - even in our quiet neck of the woods at least a dozen change hands each season. And the two that I saw so far look new despite being 30 years old!
> 
> By the way, the Wave I rented at a resort - being a noob boat - had this spiffy bubble on top of its mast to prevent turtling. Do you know if something like that is available/possible for the H16? My biggest fear is that I flip it, bungle my first attempt to right it and end up digging that long mast into the silt 20" under water.
> 
> One last thing - do you think being on the heavier side might make H16 less of a fit for me? Those hulls look pretty slim and wickedly sickle-shaped - seems like my 200 lbs plus another 200 libs worth of kids (of course I would not dream of racing with such a load) might submerge the tramp! What might be a great platform for a 150 lbs sailor might not be so fitting for a heavier crew!


Your weight is not an issue. Minimum racing weight on an H16 is (i think) 285 pounds. It takes about 260 pounds to right the boat in dead air. With the wind going one of your kids would have a fair shot at getting it righted once the air is under the sail. Regardless, i weigh in at 225 and have never been lighter than 195 in my time with the boat. Not to brag but only to make a point, I have won my share of races with this boat and even managed a couple regatta wins. Also a bunch of second and third place finishes in all classes. So, not only was the boat more than able to carry my fat butt around the race course, it had to carry a crew member as well. Not only did it carry us, we won!!! ( sailing knowledge, boat trim, racing strategy, and luck wins over lowest boat weight)

BTW Hobie 16s race in three classes, A, B, and C. C is the starter class. B intermediate and A is down and dirty as serious as it gets sailboat racing. Depending on location a regatta could draw anywhere from 30 to 150 boats. That was then this is now, where a good draw would be 50 boats. Still, as i worked my way up thru the classes I often found myself on starting lines with 50 or 60 boats in my class. A class would pit me against two dozen expert level sailors. Today there could be a dozen or more boats on the line. Point being - the level of competition made us into really good sailors. And all the gained wisdom is transferable to other boats and racing venues.

The mast float - pluses and minuses - Plus - it will keep the mast floating and prevent a turtle. Turning turtle is only a problem in dangerous seaways or in places as you describe where the boat can get the mast almost all the way round but not quite there. Sticking the mast is a bigger problem than turning turtle. So that's the big plus, one less worry. The negative is levered weight on the end of the mast. When righting the boat physics works against you by adding that levered weight at the end of a long swing arm. Personally I've never seen anyone have a problem righting the boat with the Bob on the mast, but it is a point of discussion.

Hobie masts are sealed. That being the case I've never turtled the boat. But it is something that can happen. If the Mast float gives you peace of mind - go for it!!!!


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

One other thing - the H16 hull shape is asymmetrical. Rounded on the center facing face and flat on the outer face. Because the H16 doesn't have dagger boards resistance is created as the heeling pushes the flat outside face of the lee hull against the water. In theory this creates resistance. As effective as a dagger board? Nope! But it works pretty good!!! The boat goes forward in a hurry. Especially at its most effective heeling angle - which is the windward hull just out of the water. Friction reduced ,hammer down, go for it!!!! 

Lastly, just to put things into perspective - the H16 is still a widely raced boat, with a very active class association. But, it has been surpassed by technology. Compared to the F16 cats of today it's like comparing a 67 Mustang GT with a 2014 Shelby 500. The 67 is cool, it's fast for it's day and will still pin you to the seat today. But the Shelby - it will make your eyes bleed! So if you've got the need for speed and about 15 or 20 grand to spend, you can go faster than an H16.


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## mgoltsman (Jul 10, 2013)

TJC45 said:


> Compared to the F16 cats of today it's like comparing a 67 Mustang GT with a 2014 Shelby 500. The 67 is cool, it's fast for it's day and will still pin you to the seat today. But the Shelby - it will make your eyes bleed! So if you've got the need for speed and about 15 or 20 grand to spend, you can go faster than an H16.


I have neither, but thanks for the info After driving a Mazda RX-8 for four years I realized that it is true - it is more fun to drive a slow car fast than to drive a fast car slow. I don't think the same goes for boats, but I am pretty sure an H16 will still be far more boat than I need while I learn. If I live long enough to outgrow it, I will get back to you about what F16 stands for - I hope you don't mean the jet fighter because that is certainly out of my budget!


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## mgoltsman (Jul 10, 2013)

bobmcgov said:


> The Buccaneer 18 is a fun, not-too-well-built dinghy* with a great & growing class association & some truly filthy habits. Upstate NY is actually a pretty good place for them, tho -- I grew up on the Finger Lakes & the wind patterns there favor the Bucc's good side. Also the Lightning, which of course was invented for those waters. Much better boat all around, the Lightning. That or the Scot would be first choice for what you describe. The Bucc18 will go a little faster in light conditions, but hiking is mandatory and it don't harden up until 45 degrees heel.
> 
> (*Statement does not apply to the new Bucc18s made by Nickels, which are quite fine.)
> 
> ...


If I counted your yes's and no's correctly, you say that Bucc18 is far from easy to handle. That's a very important point for me because I am an imbecile as far as sailing goes. I understand the potential issue with the low boom, but would certainly appreciate more info on the "truly filthy habits" and "squirrely" handling. I am leaning towards a Hobie 16 at the moment - provided the three that are for sale in the area don't turn into pumpkins before I can grab one. However, if it takes half the time to rig the Bucc18 as compared to, say, a Hobie 16 or a Prindle 16 - that would be something I would consider, depending on the degree of filthiness and squirreliness. By the way - how is that not a contradiction with being "dead simple to rig and sail"?

I looked at a couple of lightnings, and the Buccaneer *looks* faster - not that it means anything in particular. More importantly, it seems that the lightning is truly a two person boat while Bucc18 might actually fit like 3 kids plus myself - as long as I don't try to set any records.


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

What about a West Wight Potter or Montgomery 17? They are in a bit of a different category, but you may find them enjoyable as well


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

mgoltsman said:


> I understand the potential issue with the low boom, but would certainly appreciate more info on the "truly filthy habits" and "squirrely" handling. I am leaning towards a Hobie 16 at the moment - provided the three that are for sale in the area don't turn into pumpkins before I can grab one. However, if it takes half the time to rig the Bucc18 as compared to, say, a Hobie 16 or a Prindle 16 - that would be something I would consider, depending on the degree of filthiness and squirreliness. By the way - how is that not a contradiction with being "dead simple to rig and sail"?
> 
> I looked at a couple of lightnings, and the Buccaneer *looks* faster - not that it means anything in particular. More importantly, it seems that the lightning is truly a two person boat while Bucc18 might actually fit like 3 kids plus myself - as long as I don't try to set any records.


The Bucc is simple to rig and sail because it only has two generally used control lines -- mainsheet and jib sheet. Compare to the Lightning, which can have up to fifteen. Buccs often have vangs, too, and these are sometimes employed -- tho the mid-boom sheeting gives you much the same effect since it attaches within a foot of the vang bail. The mainsail's large roach & bendy spars make controlling sail twist off the wind a futile exercise, anyhow.

So it's *easy* to sail because it only has two meaningful lines; it's a *bastard* to sail because absolute lack of form or directional stability, total reliance on crew ballast & placement, lack of sail-shaping and depowering options, and unbalanced sailplan mean you are constantly seeking an equilibrium state, but never getting there. It's not a boat that ever really settles down and hauls booty.

Truly filthy habits: perfectly round bilges mean the boat goes from flat to 45* and back with the least puff; it has the form stability of a wine barrel.










At 45* heel, if you can keep it from rounding all the way up, the foils stall, the boat stops going forward & starts crabbing sideways; then it flops down, takes off like a greyhound, heels hard, stalls... lather, rinse, repeat. The centerboard itself is pretty decent, but the trunk typically has enuf slop in it the board twists off and stalls.

You cannot let go of the tiller for an instant, because the boat has no inbuilt directional stability & comes with a hefty dose of weather helm. If you are the only adult and need to be pulling both sets of sheets, you better be clever at steering with your buttocks. When the big mainsail comes over in a jibe, the Bucc tends to broach violently unless the crew sorta "reverse-roll-tacks" it and the helm countersteers like a demon. While the cockpit is large, so is the centerboard trunk, and the converging angles of vang and mainsheet make getting the crew across in tacks somewhat difficult; they have to dive thru a small slot between tackles. And since only crew weight on the rail keeps the boat from tanking in anything over 12kts, they better get over and hiking before the main powers up on the new tack, or you will be swimming. So the Bucc's large cockpit is deception -- you really can't sail it hard with more than one crew, anyhow. It's a two-up club or one-design racer.

The Flying Scot & Lightning are within a whit of the Bucc18 in racing handicap (ie, speed). The Scot is every bit as comfortable, even more roomy, and infinitely more forgiving in strong or puffy winds. Better boat to learn on, for sure. You can relax a little & let the boat take care of you. Think of it as a well-behaved but still energetic gelding. The Bucc is more like a uncut llama.

The Lightning easily carries three adults -- that is its standard racing complement, BTW. Its cockpit is less zaftig than the Bucc or FS, but it ain't a total pain box like the Thistle. But the best part about the Lightning is its versatility: two or three racers can sail the hell out of it, milking the many sail shaping controls for every last ounce of speed. Or you can depower the rig, put away the spaghetti of fine-tuning controls, and just sail it stupid with the whole clan lounging in the corners: it's a stable, reassuring, stiff, straight-tracking family daysailer. I've spent many hours in both the Lightning and the Bucc18, & there's no comparison for manners. The Lightning is as fast as the Bucc, but ever so much kinder in winds over 10kts. Trouble will be finding one in good shape for the same price as Buccaneers, which are dirt cheap & have almost no wood to rot.

Now for a disclaimer: I sail on mountain lakes above 7000'. That tends to magnify any boat's poor habits. There *is* an active fleet in Denver, where the winds aren't much nicer; tellingly, the best Bucc sailors in the country come out of there. If you can manage this boat in harsh winds, yer gonna steamroll the lowland competition. But even my high thresholds for attitude and excitement have been sorely tested by the Bucc. We haven't sailed it for two years, because the SJ21 is just so much less stressful. Who wants to spend the whole day fighting your ride? Gonna break _Grainnia_ out next week, tho -- see if I remember how to sail a llama.


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