# Month 9 Expenses & Costs of Cruising



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

This past month we traveled from Vero Beach Florida to St Augustine Fl. Not that far as we had some family things to be done and St Augustine was a good location to do it from.

We spent 13 days in a marina at Vero Beach on a mooring and 1-month at St Augustine on a mooring. Since we paid for the Vero one when we left and the St Augustine when we arrived all are on this month's numbers.

My daughter moved from New Hampshire to Florida and my wife went to help with that. So that was unusual expenses.

Did some standard small stuff on the boat and installed a holding tank vent filter and had the bottom cleaned. Got a couple of sun shade tarps for the boat also. So even though nothing big happened it still adds up

Entertainment expenses were for some Kindle books and a few movies.

Fees were $79.29 I got back from my credit card rewards, but $150 for a professional certification fee having to do with my wife who just couldn't talk herself out of it.

We got food but didn't do a restocking. Also got some clothes and shoes that are in the "food" number


The total was $ 3,574.81, that breaks down as follows:

Food, soda, alcohol, clothing, sundries - $ 625.25
Boat upgrades, repairs, maintenance - $ 399.12
Fuel (diesel, gas, propane) - $ 54.38
Dining out - $ 1,037.32
Entertainment - $ 108.74
Communication, storage, shipping - $ 284.05
Fees - $ 70.73
Marina - $ 616.74
Medical - $ 22.27
Transportation - $ 67.33
Daughter moving - $ 288.88


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Don - just wanted to say I've really enjoyed these reports. Very informative. Thanks for taking the time.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

smackdaddy said:


> Don - just wanted to say I've really enjoyed these reports. Very informative. Thanks for taking the time.


Agreed, though I had to resist telling you how you were doing it wrong again this month :lol:


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

ianjoub said:


> Agreed, though I had to resist telling you how you were doing it wrong again this month :lol:


Bet if you allowed me to spend your money I would learn how to do it right. Might take awhile, but hey if it's worth learning it's worth learning right.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Don0190 said:


> Bet if you allowed me to spend your money I would learn how to do it right. Might take awhile, but hey if it's worth learning it's worth learning right.


I firmly believe that you can't take it with you when you die. So, BLOW IT NOW while you have the chance.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Great info. It's interesting to see how Dining Out can really add to the expenses. I've recently started using a grocery delivery service and found it very convenient and economical. Even with a $9.95 delivery charge. I order on line and everything gets delivered to the house. There is a $60 minimum for each order but, I am not wandering down the supermarket isles picking up things I did not really need. I've done a lot of cooking and have a freezer full of prepared meals so I have not been going out to dinner in awhile. The other night coming back from the boatyard I stopped to pick up some chinese take out. The bill came out to $11.50. It was a wake up as to how expensive even take out can be. Whereas $60 in groceries can feed me for at least a week.
In a few weeks I'm planing on provisioning the boat using this service instead of heading to the supermarket myself. I'd like to see if I could use this service (if it's available) while cruising and have provisions delivered to a marina I may be anchored or moored near. It would save time and Taxi costs. Though I'll still eat out on shore especially when exploring a new port.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

A daughter that only costs $288 per month is a bargain. 

Mark


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## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

Do you have a post or website with all nine months and also what your boat is?
I'm assessing if I can do it on 2.5k a month. 3-years from now (literally) Likely a used 2008-2010 Lagoon 440/450, anchoring out, minimal eating out (don't do it on land now), minimal if any alcohol at all (6 pack a month?). I can do almost all repairs myself.
Seems biggest factors are about 1.5% boat value for repairs/upkeep and 1.5-1.8% boat value in insurance. Assuming a $350k boat = $440/mo repairs and $525/mo insurance or $965/mo. This leaves roughly $1,500 a month living. Looks like I might not have enough $.
$375/mo and $450 for a $300k boat = $825 month.

Looks like dining out is the biggest difference between you and I. I figure about 1-2 cheap meals a week MAX but likely less.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

serpa4 said:


> minimal eating out (don't do it on land now), minimal if any alcohol at all (6 pack a month?).


If you don't do it on land now you are unlikely to start once cruising. 
So you are quite right for some people there's meat in Don's sandwich that can be clipped.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

serpa4 said:


> Do you have a post or website with all nine months and also what your boat is?


There are threads here for all 9 months. Adjust my real life numbers as you feel they will apply to you.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

serpa4 said:


> Looks like dining out is the biggest difference between you and I. I figure about 1-2 cheap meals a week MAX but likely less.


I am not trying to tell you or anyone else how to do it:

My wife and I rarely eat out, maybe once per month and we are almost always disappointed. We drink, but never go to bars. When we are cruising that will change. We want to see the world and experience different cultures. To us, this involves going out to meet locals, try local cuisine, and cruise the countryside wherever we are. Hotel rooms and car rentals will be a big expense for us, especially when you consider the double dipping of paying for the marina while we are out in the rental car and staying at the hotel.

We look forward to cruising, but are not doing it just to live on a boat. We think it will be a great way to see and experience the world!


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

"local cuisine" = mostly the same food cooked at different place


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Don0190 said:


> "local cuisine" = mostly the same food cooked at different place


That changes drastically as you get further afield. Guinea pig, nutria, muskrat, puffin, &#8230;. Then there are the many fruits and vegetables that aren't seen in the US and surrounds.

Mark


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

colemj said:


> That changes drastically as you get further afield. Guinea pig, nutria, muskrat, puffin, &#8230;. Then there are the many fruits and vegetables that aren't seen in the US and surrounds.
> 
> Mark


yes of course that's true

but I acturally think what most posters basically mean by "eating local" in a budget thread is eating the local version of rice and beans


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Personally I rather enjoy doing most of my drinking and meals in the cockpit while at anchor. You can keep the noisy beachfront bars and restaurants blasting Reggae and Jimmy Buffet tunes. Though an occasional foray to some of the local bistros and shacks can be a real tasty treat.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Don0190 said:


> yes of course that's true
> 
> but I acturally think what most posters basically mean by "eating local" in a budget thread is eating the local version of rice and beans


Or KFC&#8230;

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

mbianka said:


> Though an occasional foray to some of the local bistros and shacks can be a real tasty treat.


We find street carts and vendors to have the most interesting and surprising local foods. Good for a budget also.

Mark


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

colemj said:


> We find street carts and vendors to have the most interesting and surprising local foods. Good for a budget also.
> 
> Mark


Indeed but, can also be a form of Food Russian Roulette. Exhibit A:


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

mbianka said:


> Indeed but, can also be a form of Food Russian Roulette. Exhibit A:


Been there - done that!! And, did so in more ports of call than anyone can imagine. The worst was probably in Rhodes Greece, spent a week in the hospital and lost nearly 30 pounds in the process. I wished I would have died. Got some bacalaito in San Juan from a street cart, it was wrapped in newspaper, of all things, tasted great, but by the end of the day, I couldn't get more than 30 feet from the porcelain throne. Fortunately, this one only lasted about 3 days.

I prefer my cooking to the stuff I get in restaurants, by a long shot. I learned to cook when I was just 10 years old, from my mother. She said her children would be able to cook for themselves when they decided to leave home, which I did at age 17 when I joined the US Navy. Both my brother and sister are great cooks as well. When I go to a restaurant, which is rare these days, I am usually disappointed by the taste and quality of the food, especially seafood.

Don, I really appreciate you posting your monthly expenses and always enjoy reading the responses of others.

All the best,

Gary


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

mbianka said:


> Indeed but, can also be a form of Food Russian Roulette. Exhibit A:


Oh, no doubt, but that is part of the excitement of cruising. If you don't put yourself out there, you will miss a lot of good stuff.

BTW, I don't have the bandwidth to watch videos, so don't know what the link describes - I took a guess that it was food poisoning.

On the other hand, it seems like we are almost assured of food poisoning at least once every time we visit the US and eat out a lot.

I don't think this is a predominantly non-first world thing.

Mark


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

colemj said:


> On the other hand, it seems like we are almost assured of food poisoning at least once every time we visit the US and eat out a lot.
> 
> I don't think this is a predominantly non-first world thing.
> 
> Mark


You say that like you consider the US a first world country still :lol:

The vid was a SV Delos vid of Brian with food poisoning.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

colemj said:


> Oh, no doubt, but that is part of the excitement of cruising. If you don't put yourself out there, you will miss a lot of good stuff.
> 
> BTW, I don't have the bandwidth to watch videos, so don't know what the link describes - I took a guess that it was food poisoning.
> 
> ...


Yes it highlighted one of the crew (Brady) coming down with dysentery in Raja Ampat Indonesia. Actually all the crew came down with something. But, Brady had it the worse lucky they have a well stocked medical kit on board including Ciperal.

Yes, one could get sick in any country eating out. One never knows who or what is cooking behind the kitchen door. Last week there was a News story in New York warning a certain restaurants customers about coming down with Hepatitis C due to one of the employees having it. While dining out is nice IMO dining in the cockpit of ones own boat is always a safer bet. But, I don't follow that rule too strictly.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

mbianka said:


> While dining out is nice IMO dining in the cockpit of ones own boat is always a safer bet. But, I don't follow that rule too strictly.


How do you know that food you cook in the cockpit is safe?


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Don0190 said:


> How do you know that food you cook in the cockpit is safe?


You don't always. But, at least I'll know who to blame for cooking it. It's also passed through a few less hands in the process. Another positive it's good to have the head so near.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I doubt it passed through less hands. I bet that the transportation out to and storage on the boat puts the foods at a lot more risk than it had being cooked at a restaurant. In the Bahamas I noticed that frozen food was rock solid, much more frozen than in the States. Then it occurred to me that it was that way so it would make it from the store to house. Even now that I'm back in the States the time sometimes that it takes to buy food and get it back to the boat can be pretty long.

But it doesn't matter. If people don't want to eat out and need a reason beyond cost it's OK with me. I made the dining a separate line item in the budget threads so people can decide how their budget will (might) be different.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Don0190 said:


> In the Bahamas I noticed that frozen food was rock solid, much more frozen than in the States. Then it occurred to me that it was that way so it would make it from the store to house.


You should be at the store when the "frozen" food comes to the store. It arrives in Nassau on a freezer container from The US, gets unloaded and sits in the sun on a dock for a random time until it is loaded into a non-freezer container to transport it to an out island loading dock, where it sits in the sun for a random period of time until it is loaded into a hot truck and taken to a store, where it sits in the sun for a random period of time before the employees get around to putting all of the completely thawed and often rotten food into the mega freezers to make it rock solid. Much more frozen than in the States...

Mark


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

colemj said:


> You should be at the store when the "frozen" food comes to the store. It arrives in Nassau on a freezer container from The US, gets unloaded and sits in the sun on a dock for a random time until it is loaded into a non-freezer container to transport it to an out island loading dock, where it sits in the sun for a random period of time until it is loaded into a hot truck and taken to a store, where it sits in the sun for a random period of time before the employees get around to putting all of the completely thawed and often rotten food into the mega freezers to make it rock solid. Much more frozen than in the States...
> 
> Mark


Pretty much my point that the food you buy to take and cook on the boat isn't "safer" than the food in a restaurant.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Don0190 said:


> But it doesn't matter. If people don't want to eat out and need a reason beyond cost it's OK with me. I made the dining a separate line item in the budget threads so people can decide how their budget will (might) be different.


It's all good. Especially for others planning to head out who should be reminded that if they plan on eating out a lot. It will take a bigger chunk out of the cruise budget and to plan for it. I've both gone out to eat out every night because I can and never worried about the bill. Lately, I'm cooking in and have a freezer stock full of meals I can just heat up if I don't feel like cooking that night. Quite a bit of savings in cost over eating out but, that is not my primary reason for doing it.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

*Month 9 Expenses & Costs of Cruisingl*

We try to talk with fellas cruisers before going out to eat and get recommendations. Then try to eat where the locals eat not the charter/cruise ship crowd. This decreases expense but also increases diversity. It's great fun to meet other cruisers in a new island and explore. It's even more fun to go out to dinner with locals you've befriended.


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## Thoren (Jun 26, 2017)

Thanks for this - that eating out really does get you. I'm discovering the same on land as I trim my budget


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> Pretty much my point that the food you buy to take and cook on the boat isn't "safer" than the food in a restaurant.


I disagree, Don. First and foremost, I am very, very selective of the food that I purchase. Then, I thoroughly rinse all raw vegetables before storing them in zip loc bags and again, just prior to cooking. If they are to be used in a salad, I usually rinse the vegetables in bleachwater, then again, in cold, fresh water, and blot dry with a paper towel. Makes for a nice, clean, crisp salad. No restaurant that I know of does this.

With ALL fish, I rinse the fillets in bleach water, then cold, clear, freshwater before packaging for the freezer, or cooking. I can absolutely guarantee you that no restaurant does this. NONE!

With most meats, especially pork, I follow the same rules as above, and most of the time, the meat is never handled without rubber gloves. I apply spices with either a shaker, and spice rubs using rubber gloves.

I cook my meats to the correct, safe, temperature, using a digital meat thermometer, one that I frequently test the accuracy of against an analog meat thermometer. When I carry steaks or fish to the grill, they are transported on a platter that gets washed while the fish or meat is on the grill cooking - and NEVER goes back on the same plate untill that plate is washed.

No one in my family, or anyone that has crewed with me on my boat has ever suffered from food poisoning because of any food I have served them - NO ONE! However, just about everyone person I know, and I know an awful lot of people, has suffered food poisoning after eating in well known, high end, restaurants. Think about it.

Think about the things you see happening in restaurants every time you eat there. Watch the kid that wipes the tables and chairs, using the same, filthy terrycloth towel he used for the past three hours. After spraying with something that appears to be Windex, he, or she, then wipes the table, then wipes the chairs that everyone sat upon. They then more on to the next table and repeat the process, wiping the table with the same cloth that they just wiped a chair with where someone's rectum was in close contact with.

The attractive young lady, or man, that serves you the food picks up the plate from the tray, his or her hand beneath the plate, but their thumb as anchored across the top, sometimes even touching your garlic mashed potatoes. Whoops! They have shaken hands, taken filthy money and credit cards with those hands, and I can guarantee you they didn't wash those hands between every customer.

When I was performing in upscale restaurants in Baltimore I would often cringe when I witnessed the food preparation and handling. If anyone takes a modicum of culinary precautions, I can assure you the meals prepared aboard your boat are far safer than any you would get in even the best, upscale restaurant anywhere in the world.

Now, I'm not chef bashing with my above post, and most of the professional chefs I have encountered are very conscientious about food preparation safety. But, that meal has to go from the kitchen to the consumer, and it ain't the chef carrying the meal.

Good Luck,

Gary


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I'm not cruising, but I love going out to eat when I travel. It's one of the best parts.

We usually sit at the bar or counter, if there is one, so we can have more interaction with the server and other customers. 

A good way to find the fun, local restaurants and bars is to ask your server where they go to eat or hang out in their time off.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Don's budget is definitely a major cause of food poisoning worldwide. Just another way he is doing it wrong... 

I don't know why he started this food poisoning thread. Probably just to brag.

We rarely eat fish that have been dead more than an hour. Sometimes they are still wiggling. Cooking them just ruins the flavor - a bit of rice, nori, and wasabi is all you need. 

Where we usually cruise, tree bark is more edible than the beef.

If we ever do put something on the grill, we don't need a stinking thermometer to tell us when it is done. The flames and shouting from the adjacent boats works just fine.

The largest danger we find in US restaurants is they serve us meals that weigh more than we do. Covered in cheese.

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Beef in the US is excellent. Not so much elsewhere. Unless we catch the fish away from islands don't eat it. Chicken and pork are ubiquitous and generally good. Goat turns out to not be that bad along with lamb. Vacuum bagging and freezing when you hit a good supermarket like in the French islands gives you delicious meals on the boat. You need to approach eating out as a entertainment not a regular source of nutrition. 
It hasn't been a budget buster. Secure internet and phone is another matter.


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## redfishnc (Jan 22, 2017)

If I had a 350K boat I would assume eating out would be affordable. I'm on the other end of the spectrum, 35K boat and we eat and drink as needed. For us we are just cruising local and the south-eastern coast, eating out is a big part of the adventure. To each his own...


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I tired this "eat where the locals eat" in the Bahamas and for the most part I just couldn't walk that far each way!

BTW - in the total budget scheme you have to consider that a good portion of dining out also goes into the entertainment line. I don't consider it a budget buster if I spend most of the day walking around seeing the sights etc. and at the end of the day we go to dinner out. I'm sorry if too many cruisers have to do free entertainment and then go back to the boat for a meal of "what's on the boat".


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Don0190 said:


> I'm sorry if too many cruisers have to do free entertainment and then go back to the boat for a meal of "what's on the boat".


Don't be, it is not your problem. Enjoy yourself how you see fit!


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Ditto, Don. Do what you want and enjoy what you do.

As for free entertainment, in my case, I was often the entertainment in the ports of call - that's how I beefed up my cruising kitty, and I loved every minute of it. On top of it all, I often get free eats from the cruising ladies and free drinks from their spouses. Some of those ladies were fantastic chefs and made some incredible dishes.










Best job I ever had, though everyone said it wasn't a real job because I was having too much fun.

As someone posted above, the best beef comes from the US, and I heartily agree. I've tasted beef from all over the world, mostly when I was young and employed by the US Navy, and nothing compared to what we have here in the US when it came to beef.

I eat a lot of fish, mostly inshore species, but I thoroughly enjoy fresh caught and grilled bluefin and yellowfin tuna steaks, which I usually baste with Yoshida Gourmet Sauce while they're slowly grilling on the rail grill. The best tasting fish in Florida are mangrove snapper, followed by grunt, yellowtail snapper, grouper, and a host of others. However, get north of Norfolk, VA and I'll drop a line near one of the inshore wrecks for sea bass, porgy and best of all, tautog. Nothing, absolutely nothing, tastes better than beer battered tautog. Mahi Mahi is pretty good fresh caught, but is even better when brined and smoked with hickory chips.

Sorry for the rant - made me hungry, supper time,

Gary


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

travlin-easy said:


> The best tasting fish in Florida are mangrove snapper


Also in Bermuda. This one made great sushi. Ironically, I caught it using a piece of US beef.

Mark


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Mark, great looking cubera snapper. They are fantastic tasting, and a rare catch - lucky guy!

Gary


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Not a cubera, it's a mangrove/gray.

We like cubera even more.

Mark


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Wow! I never saw a mangrove larger than about 20 inches at most - that's why I thought it was a cubera snapper.

Gary


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

24". Didn't have a scale, but I guess ~10lb.

I was actually trying to catch the bigger one swimming with it!

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Hear of folks thinking they will decrease expenses by catching rain water (25 cents/g and up) and fishing. Believe this is wishful thinking in the Caribbean or even New England. Caribbean is basically a desert in the winter and reef caught fish run the risk of making you quite ill. 
I fish a lot during the summer. Getting a keeper striper is not an every day affair in New England. Getting a mahi-mahi or yellow fin off your Cuban yoyos isn't either. Caught rain off New England, unless it's been raining a long time, is often dirty.
With just two on the boat using solar and wind for power did the math. Our little Cape Horn extreme will pay for itself in ~ 10 years. The big expense is filters. Use a lot more of them when up north. Probably quicker pay off down south but don't know south east coastal water quality. Even if it didn't having an RO unit has made a huge difference in quality of life. 
Basically a catch and release fisherman. Exceptions are big rainbow and brown trout, sea bass and the occasional striper. Also put every pickerel I catch on the side of the pond for the raccoons and foxes because over time if you have pickerel you won't have much in the way of game fish. Someone once said you could buy four fish for the cost of stuff you use up catching one.
So don't think fishing is anything more than than a very pleasant diversion.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

If you change "Caribbean" to "populated eastern Caribbean", then I agree. But things are much, much different elsewhere in the Caribbean sea. For both fish and water catchment (use a filter if concerned).

Watermarkers should never be seen in economic terms. Saving money isn't their purpose. Fishing can be a significant source of food, as well as fun. We live on fish we catch easily, and the gear to support this is relatively cheap (a pointy stick works). Put in economic terms, the commercial value of the fish we catch is thousands of dollars, if not 10x that. Just try to find 2hr fresh hogfish, cubera, permit, grouper, or 6lb spiny lobster at a store. Makes my fishing gear seem really inexpensive....

Mark


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## dennymusic (Aug 27, 2014)

outbound said:


> reef caught fish run the risk of making you quite ill.


HUH?

I hate to hear that. I'm planning on cruising for the first time starting in a couple years and was looking forward to eating fish I catch. You mean I can't or I run the risk of getting sick all the time?

Whaa-aat? You gotta be kidding.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Denny ciguetera will make you very sick for a long time. What's just as bad is there maybe a latency before you get sick. So you maybe on passage after having left feeling fine. 
In spite of locals saying they can tell if a fish has the toxin by whether it tarnishes a silver spoon or attracts flies or smell in fact you can't.
Along the leewards fish caught off the north side of the islands at least a 1/2m away from any reef maybe safer but the only way to be safe in the tropics is no reef fish and only pelagic fish in very deep waters.
This is like the rain thing. Unfortunately you can't depend on fish for routine nutrition nor rain for water.
In fact when the Sahara winds are blowing after it rains we look to wash the boat to get the sand and dust off that collects in ugly streaks.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

It depends. The statement that reef fish run the risk of making you quite ill is correct in the absolute sense (like eating tuna runs the risk of giving you mercury poisoning), but the relative picture ranges from don't fish at all on reefs in certain areas, to certain fish are OK in some areas, to catch anything you want with no worry in some areas.

The problem is ciguatera, which is a bad thing for humans. This is an algae poison that is stored harmlessly in fish, and builds up in them as they get larger. The Bahamas definitely have ciguatera, but it seems to be mostly specific to certain areas and certain fish. For example, I personally would never eat barracuda of any size anywhere in the Bahamas nor any fish longer than about my arm, the Berries seem to have unusual amounts of ciguatera in groupers, I have never heard of ciguatera in any fish of any size in the raggeds, although I avoid certain fish and sizes just out of prudence. In addition to barracuda, certain species of grouper, all parrotfish, and possibly cubera (I have a weak spot for cubera and have been lucky) should probably be avoided everywhere in the Bahamas. Luckily, Nassau grouper are common and seem to be ciguatera-free. Hogfish is considered so also.

South of the Bahamas, the Eastern Caribe has ciguatera down to around St. Lucia or so, then pretty much becomes free of it. However, there really isn't any reef fishing to be done in this area because the fish have been wiped out by locals and development.

The Western Caribe is free of ciguatera in general. Everything is game there, and I have taken and eaten 50lb fish with no issue. Giant barracuda almost flop themselves on the BBQ for you.

If a place has recently been ravaged by a storm strong enough to tear up the reef system, it is best to avoid fish from that area.

Don't rely on any "local knowledge" or such - use it only as a general guideline and use your brain when evaluating. I don't know how many times I have been told by locals about sure-fire methods to tell if a fish is bad or not, or that catching fish on one part of a reef is fine, while the other parts are not. Every single one of them will relate personal tales of poisoning.

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Mark agree the watermaker should be viewed as a life changing device. Amazing how the absence of concerns about water availability changes your life. Still this thread is about 9m cost so put in the rough economics.
This winter will be the windwards. You're right the whole rim of the Caribbean Sea is overpopulated during high season.Still you can stay off moorings and off the grid for much of the time. For us with what's going on in Venezuela and a desire to summer in New England the western Caribbean isn't practical. It's good to hear things are different there. Would note bent the elbow with someone who came back from sailing the Belize area. Sounded much the same from the little it was talked about. Conversation was focused on other things.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Mark a thread hijack. Where do you summer. I really want to cruise the western Caribbean. All unknown to me. But seems the sail back to Grenada/Trinidad is the wrong way and the sail back to Florida can be quite nasty.
Done some of the Bahamas and have little interest in going back.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

We don't summer anywhere different - we live full time on our boat. After spending 5 yrs in the Western Caribe, we shot back to FL two years ago to do some boat work that is easier there than where we were (new rigging and sails, along with a few other things). We are currently in Bermuda headed to Nova Scotia tomorrow. Will probably head back to the Western Caribe in the spring. If not in the spring, then definitely next fall.

Belize is the one area there that we don't like well. The cays and diving and most of the people are fantastic, but the officials and the hassles they create just aren't worth it. And this isn't only checking in - they continually hassle and extort money whenever they can find you anywhere. We have spent only a little time there, but take lessons from many friends who have attempted to cruise it longer-term. 

Yes, that part of the Caribe is a hole in the sense that heading back is upwind, up current, and against the seas. Going back to Grenada/Trinidad would only be for the most masochistic people. I shudder even thinking about that. We shot straight from Panama to the Windward Passage and up, and that was a trip that will stay in our minds for the frustration and beating. The other option is to work up the Yucatan and shoot over to FL. This is the option almost everyone takes, and it is relatively easy if you just wait and pick weather windows to make hops. The reason we didn't do this is because there was a strong lingering storm system hanging in that part of the Caribe that opened up the direct route we took. "Opened up" is very relative, of course - we still had a slog of it. However, the Yucatan route was closed down for weeks, and didn't really calm back down for over a month.

If you don't like the Bahamas, or only liked the Abaco's, you probably won't like a lot of the Western Caribe. I'm taking liberties here in estimating what you seek cruising. Outside of Colombia, there isn't much "culture" in the sense that many people assign to that word. Also, not a lot "to do", in the sense that many people assign to that phrase. It is far removed in all respects from the Eastern Caribe. It is also very remote in places and one needs to be self-sufficient and self-reliant. It is also a difficult area if one doesn't speak, or want to learn, Spanish. But any real effort to cobble together some pigeon Spanish will go far and probably make you a friend there. 

Most of the people who enjoy the Western Caribe look fondly back at the Bahamas and try never to think again about the Eastern Caribe. Most of the people who dislike the Western Caribe look fondly back at the Eastern Caribe or the populated parts of US and ex-pat Mexico. One of the compelling reasons we returned to the US for a couple of years was to explore more of the Bahamas, which we love (excluding the Abacos and most of the Exumas). We will never go back again to the Eastern Caribe (but do fondly remember eating and provisioning in the French islands there).

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Marc thanks on your take of things. We should buddy boat sometimes. Fortunately there remains a lot of spots throughout the eastern Caribbean where you can anchor with 0-4 boats in sight and stay off the grid. This past season we bought fuel once on arrival and once just before departure, food when we checked in or every few weeks. Admittedly during high season it takes a bit of forethought to avoid seeing drunks and hearing rap at 2 AM but it's doable. 
Sometimes it's fun to get off the boat walk or rent a car and go exploring. It's not all cruise ship q-tips or charter boat party animals with a bit of effort. It's also fun to chat with couples you met at other harbors when you meet in a new one. Was fortunate this past season becoming friendly with expats owning houses or locals which allows a different take on the region. Agree doing the "circuit " in the BVIs can get old. Yes it's fun to have visitors down staying on the boat for a week but eventually even that gets old and you look forward to the times when it's just you and the bride. 
Very much enjoy putting the rags up and time spent on or under the water but also enjoy wandering around on land. 
Guess we'll do the windwards next winter and work on our Spanish to leave the western Caribbean in play. Found your input helpful. Was trying to get practical information on logistics of spending a season there. Now starting to think about 2 years out. May do the refit/maintenance chores in the early spring in New England. Then head for the Baltic by way of Iceland, and Scotland. Leave the boat to come back to do Atlantic coast of France, Portugal, Azores to St.Martin.
Hope you are enjoying my region now.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Marc look forward to you giving a more in depth take on the Bahamas. Our experience is limited. Had a friend who owned a house on Man of War. We'd help him bring his boat from Maine to there and then bop around a bit. Also been through a few times bringing boats from leewards to the states. Spent time in Chicken Harbor. Cruising community there seems warm and delightful. We draft 6 1/2'. Haven't cruised it on a cat which probably colors our outlook. So the skinny water makes us nervous. The higher expense of food and any shoreside activities seems somewhat limiting. Friends on a big cf cat thought the same. They like friends on monos missed the diversity found elsewhere. So far seems one cay is pretty much like the next both culturally and physically. Wife gets antsy if we don't get off the boat periodically. She ( and l) like exploring old historical sites and such. Is this an unwarranted bias on my part just due to lack of exposure that the Bahamas means nervous sails, expense and limited activities? 
All boats are comprising in some regards. Going upwind isn't that bad for us but you pay for it in draft. Feel Bahamas is like culebrita. Lovely at times ( mid week for culebrita) but stressful and expensive at others.


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