# Composting Head



## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Looking for a experienced and reputable dealer and installer of composting heads in the northern Chesspeake Bay area


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## Simply Sailing (Jun 9, 2015)

Though I don't know of anyone in that area who can install one for you, the Air Head is REALLY easy to install! And you can buy them online. Here's a link to our install: Simply Sailing Online


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

I think the biggest problem of installing a composting head is the removal of the existing holding tank & hoses if there is one. Installing a compositing head consist of 
securing the head to the sole then ventilating the holding bucket.


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## clip68 (Jun 26, 2014)

I too am looking at this as an option. Unfortunately our PO didn't have a holding tank installed so we are distinctly illegal until we fix it. Before anyone jumps on me, we don't use the head. At this point, it is remove the plumbing and replace with a composting head or add a holding tank. I'm leaning toward the composting head. My only issue is the height of the two most popular composting heads, we'd need a step stool!


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Here's a solution, but it's expensive: Guide to Incinerating Toilets as Components of Alternative Septic Systems - for wet sites, steep sites, rocky sites, limited space, and other difficult site conditions & Onsite Wastewater Disposal Designs, Consultants & Products

Good luck,

Gary


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Build your own and Install it yourself. Will cost well under 200 bucks.


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## cthoops (Apr 30, 2012)

The install is very easy. We had our Nature's Head shipped from Bacon Sails in Annapolis.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Check out rain dogs blog on his composting head https://raindogps34.wordpress.com/head-project/


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## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

They're great! The maintenance is so simple, just dump the urine container over the side (or heck, just pee over the side) and dump the soiled compost in a dumpster or in someone's yard. Guess you could just dump the compost over the side too if that's easier. 

Much easier than pumping out the head at a facility designed for this.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

What others have said; install is pretty easy. Removal of existing head, holding tank, and related plumbing is the largest challenge. 

When we shifted to a composter I actually left the existing holding tank and plumbing in place for a season. I wanted to make sure the composter (in this case a Nature's Head) would perform as promised. The following season I ripped all the hoses and tank out, and would never go back.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

We have owned all three of the popular brands and they all have their positive aspects. If height is a problem check out the C-Head. I believe they are more compact than the other two but need changing the solids more often, which has its positive and negative aspects as well. We have owned composters for 10 years and would never go back to the traditional marine setup.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Are any of you who have these heads full time liveaboards who travel some? I've heard they aren't very good if you are actually sailing and that they can't handle more than one or two people over a longer period of time than a day or two.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

capta said:


> Are any of you who have these heads full time liveaboards who travel some? I've heard they aren't very good if you are actually sailing and that they can't handle more than one or two people over a longer period of time than a day or two.


First questions: yes.

Second question about using them while "actually sailing"; there is no problem using them underway.

Third question: NH and AH, and I believe CH, are all designed for full-time crews of two to three (not one to two).


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Capta, in my experience with the Nature's Head, it's fine for 2 people full time. I once spent a month with 4 on board and I found that the solids didn't have a chance to dry out very much (turning the handle became harder) and I had to empty it afer the month. I think 2 users is fine, and probably ideal. The composter really shines for weekend users as the solids dry out during the week. I think you could easily go 6 months before dumping with just weekend use.
The installation is simple, but tearing out the old system could be some work (as mentioned aboe). Another thng is the height. Often marine heads sit on a little platform which can be cut away to lower the mounting surface of the composter. This is on my "to-do" list. In the mean time, the height hasn't proven to be an obstacle at all. I think that 99% of people that install a composting toilet would say they'd never go back to a marine pump toilet. I certainly wouldn't!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

HeartsContent said:


> ... just dump the urine container over the side ...... Guess you could just dump the compost over the side too if that's easier.......


Both are explicitly illegal, within an NDZ.

Unless the compost was left to aerate for a long time, after it's last use, there's plenty of "fresh" in there too. No different than directly flushing a head or pumping a holding tank overboard.

I'm not a big fan of composters aboard, but certainly don't object to others using them. Instructing unfamiliar guests to do their #1 and #2 in separate places, mix in their own waste, clean the bowl of stains, likely even tell them to put their used paper in a separate bag, etc, just doesn't work for me. It does for others. While I don't believe it's common, they have also been known to attract bugs.

Regardless, you must still dispose of your waste properly or I see no difference to just flushing overboard.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Minne, it's not the same as "just flushing overboard". With a composting toilet you have more disposal options than you would with a holding tank. You can dump it overboard where legal (offshore), bring it into the woods and dump it under a tree (which I do), bag it and dispose of it accordingly. Also, when a composting toilet is "full" it's not an emergency like it is with a holding tank, which won't accept any more waste. The urine, where legal, can be dumped overboard, which is not a problem. Urine is essentially sterile (water, urea and some salts). Also, it's not any more complicated for guests than a pump toilet (with its valves, pump handle etc.). They are really quite simple to use and I've never had a guest screw up. If you've never had one on board, it's hard to understand the simplicity of a composting toilet and the advantages. Those who have installed them don't look back in 99% of the cases. Keep an open mind about them.


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## sesmith (Jan 24, 2013)

HeartsContent said:


> and dump the soiled compost in a dumpster or in someone's yard.


What worked for me (when I was a kid) was to put it in a paper bag, put it on the front porch, light it on fire and ring the door bell. (Sorry couldn't resist.)

Just cause it's a composter, doesn't mean you don't have to get rid of the waste in a legal and environmentally proper way, as others have already mentioned.

To the OP. I don't know of anyone who sells and installs them in your area. I would think that any marine repair facility, that does work on heads, could remove your old system and install a composter for you. You may need to do the ordering. 2 of the 3 common brands are usually on display at the major boat shows. All have some sort of return policy, if you don't like what you see when it is shipped to you. I just got ours from C-head. Excellent place to do business with. I have not finished installation yet, so can't report on how well (or not well) it works. I'm leaving the existing tank and hoses in place for at least the next season, until we see how it goes. FWIW, the C-head measures out at the same height as our home toilet.


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## Azzarac (Sep 30, 2011)

If you're a little shy about explaining the use of a composter like Minnewaska is above, you can always do as I did and have Vista Print or some other printer create a cling sticker with instructions on the proper use of your composter and place it in a conspicuous area inside the head. This large cling cost about $3.50 with shipping and gives your guests something to read while taking care of business.









Also I'm not sure why Minne would be concerned about "stains" at least when it comes to the AirHead since when using it for #2 you open a big trap door and allow everything to drop into the holding tank below. When finished close the trap and everything should be pristine. I have no regrets installing our AirHead and would never go back to the old system.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Both are explicitly illegal, within an NDZ.


Both are explicitly illegal inside the 3 mile limit, not only in a no discharge zone (NDZ). If you void into a container that becomes a sanitation device and the discharge ("bucket and chuck it") of raw sewage is illegal inside the 3 mile limit. Saying the law is silly does not change it.



copacabana said:


> The urine, where legal, can be dumped overboard, which is not a problem. Urine is essentially sterile (water, urea and some salts).


Again - not legal anywhere inside the 3 mile limit.


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## Simply Sailing (Jun 9, 2015)

capta said:


> Are any of you who have these heads full time liveaboards who travel some? I've heard they aren't very good if you are actually sailing and that they can't handle more than one or two people over a longer period of time than a day or two.


Fullt ime liveaboards with an Air Head for 5 years. We've traveled thousands of miles with our Air Head and using it underway is absolutely no problem. They really aren't tricky at all. Much simpler than a traditional marine head and much more forgiving if something goes "wrong." For example, if a little urine gets in the solids container it's not the end of the world. We get 6 weeks for two people fulltime before we have to change the solids container. When our son was still at home we got 4 weeks for three people. Someone may have been giving you misinformation.


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## Simply Sailing (Jun 9, 2015)

clip68 said:


> I too am looking at this as an option. Unfortunately our PO didn't have a holding tank installed so we are distinctly illegal until we fix it. Before anyone jumps on me, we don't use the head. At this point, it is remove the plumbing and replace with a composting head or add a holding tank. I'm leaning toward the composting head. My only issue is the height of the two most popular composting heads, we'd need a step stool!


We had similar concerns, but instead of the step stool option (many people build small "foot pads") we were able to lower the floor where the Air Head sits. it's still higher than a household toilet, about like using a toilet in a handicap stall. But it's a small price to pay for the convenience.


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## clip68 (Jun 26, 2014)

Simply Sailing said:


> We had similar concerns, but instead of the step stool option (many people build small "foot pads") we were able to lower the floor where the Air Head sits. it's still higher than a household toilet, about like using a toilet in a handicap stall. But it's a small price to pay for the convenience.


I've thought about lowering the area where the head sits and it is still an option. I'd have to learn how to lay fiberglass, but I'm going to have to learn that sooner or later.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

copacabana said:


> Minne, it's not the same as "just flushing overboard".


I was referring strictly to the implication that a composter could be dumped where a holding tank could not. No such place. I bet most do dump their pee bottles where they aren't allowed.



> ..bring it into the woods and dump it under a tree (which I do)


Let us all know which tree has raw feces under it. Your last deposit is not likely composted at all. Would you drop your shorts and go next to that tree?



> ....bag it and dispose of it accordingly.


It's really the only good method, IMO. Of course, if it's a plastic bag, that's a shame.



> The urine, where legal, can be dumped overboard,


Are you saying there is a place where urine is specifically legal? None I know of. Where you can legally dump your urine, you could flush a traditional head straight into the same water, #2, paper and all.



> Also, it's not any more complicated for guests than a pump toilet (with its valves, pump handle etc.). They are really quite simple to use and I've never had a guest screw up.


It's not that it's complicated. It's how well some will take to the idea. Let's not be critical of how people feel about these personal things. I don't care one way or the other, but I am aware that many of my guests would find it objectionable.



> If you've never had one on board, it's hard to understand the simplicity of a composting toilet and the advantages.


I acknowledge their advantages, but their weaknesses as well. While I've not used one aboard, I have in camp sites. They are great, when there are no other options. I've also used outhouses, porta-potties, etc, but most would not like them aboard either.

I suppose, if I was alone on a long cruise, I would take to the idea of the simplicity. However, entertaining significantly (probably 100 guests per season) makes them undesirable to me.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Simply Sailing said:


> Fullt ime liveaboards with an Air Head for 5 years. We've traveled thousands of miles with our Air Head and using it underway is absolutely no problem. They really aren't tricky at all. Much simpler than a traditional marine head and much more forgiving if something goes "wrong." For example, if a little urine gets in the solids container it's not the end of the world. We get 6 weeks for two people fulltime before we have to change the solids container. When our son was still at home we got 4 weeks for three people. Someone may have been giving you misinformation.


This is exactly consistent with my experiences. We are seasonal full-timers so far, which means living on board for ~6 months at a time. For two of us we get around five to six weeks before having to dump the main tank. There is no issue using it underway, nor have I ever encountered any special problem instructing visitors in how to use the head, but visitors to our boat are a self-selected crowd, so it may not be as wide a sample size as Minnewaska's.

Like most choices for a smallish cruising boat, there are plusses and minuses to going with a composting head. In past threads I've itemized both. It is not the best choice in all circumstances, but for those for whom this product is aimed at, I believe it is, indeed, the best option.


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## oceangirl (Sep 17, 2008)

We are full time liveaboards/cruisers and just came back from the Bahamas. We love the dry head( well as much as you can love a head).
Pros
No hoses, no stink, easy to sanitize the whole system.( I'm a germaphobe).
There is no issue under way except I do not allow the pee tank past 2/3 full to avoid spills. Even in the heat of a Bahamian summer we did not have bug or odor problems. As long as you think of the head as a dry head, you are not composting in the traditional sense ( using microbes to break down the poo), you are drying the poo out (desiccating, denying microbes to live and breed) using good dry peat. I like to add poo powder to help speed up the desiccation process since we empty the poo tank around every 10 days( it can be as often as 1 week, or as long as a month). 

Cons
*Cruising, we use a lot more peat then I estimated( 1 gallon of peat a month, Ha!). Cruising we use a gallon of peat every 10 days, sometimes every week. The high humidity in the tropics requires more peat to properly desiccate. We do not have a vent or agitator, so that may be a factor. Poo is 75%ish water so dry it out, not ugh to dispose of.

*Pee disposal is the challenge . We all are so focused on the poo, that's easy. Humans generate about a gallon a day of urine. So lugging urine to the pump out, bathroom, etc, can be a pain. In key west the free pump out boat has a wand that will pump out a jerry can we have on deck for urine tank disposal. So ask your free pump out service if they have a wand. That was the most convenient. If we are on the move pee disposal is really not an issue as it's easy to hop out past the NDZ to empty the pee jugs. In harbor we place two one gallon pee jugs in a designated backpack and empty at the bath house every other day. Not that big of a deal especially compared to the time and effort we spent keeping the wet sanitation system going.

If we had the space and money, I'd push for the waste treatment system like lectrasans( spell? ). That to me is as close to perfect as far as convenience and environmentally friendly.
Hope that helps
Erika


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

oceangirl said:


> ...Cons
> *Cruising, we use a lot more peat then I estimated( 1 gallon of peat a month, Ha!). Cruising we use a gallon of peat every 10 days, sometimes every week. The high humidity in the tropics requires more peat to properly desiccate. We do not have a vent or agitator, so that may be a factor. Poo is 75%ish water so dry it out, not ugh to dispose of.


Erika, have you ever tried coir instead of peat? If so, did it make any difference in the desiccation process. I've only cruised un north so far, but we have never got less than a month using a compressed brick of coir. In the summer the southern Great Lakes can be incredibly humid, although I assume it's not as moist as what you deal with.

I would think an external vent would also make a big difference in the drying process. Are you planning to put one in?


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## oceangirl (Sep 17, 2008)

I try to only use CocoTek coir, just works so well. I have used off brand coir and my only issue is it is more difficult to reconstitute.( don't know why..?)

Adding a vent is on the list, but our head works so well, the project is at the bottom of the list . I put a layer of poo powder down at every new clean tank. WAG bags are especially nice to use as tank liners. But this would only work if you do not have an agitator ( though a c-head may be able to be lined).
Hope that helps. Will be offline till tomorrow ( I think) so may take a while to reply to any questions.
Happy New Year!!
Erika


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

This is our painful process of dumping the C-Head. All of 17 seconds?

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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smj said:


> This is our painful process of dum...ery other day doesn't exactly sound painless.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> And you filmed it? That had to be a little painful.
> 
> Seriously though, I don't think anyone is saying it's hard, but that certainly isn't the sum of what you need to do. That plastic bag in the bucket needs to go somewhere and you need to reload the head's composting material.
> 
> I'm actually curious what you did with the pee bottle. The rendition above where two gallons of pee are backpacked ashore every other day doesn't exactly sound painless.


And I thought I might get an offer for a leading role in Hollywood based on my acting in this short video!
The plastic bag was knotted and thrown in the dumpster with the rest of our trash. The total time to reload the head with compost was about the same 17 seconds it took to dump it.
We would usually take the jug of pee in with us when we went to shore, either dumping it in the porta potty dump or flushing it down the toilet. The jug will get an odor after awhile, but since it uses standard milk/water one gallon jugs its painless to replace.
In my opinion, we spend less time and aggravation doing the necessary maintenance on the composter than if we had to pull our anchor every week or two to motor to a marina to pump out.
From my experience probably 95% of the composting head proponents have experience with the standard holding tank arrangement, where probably 95% of the composting head opponents have no experience with a composting head. All a matter of choice.

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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smj said:


> .....From my experience probably 95% of the composting head proponents have experience with the standard holding tank arrangement, where probably 95% of the composting head opponents have no experience with a composting head.....


This is a comment that composting head "proponents" often throw out there, obviously without evidence.

Why are composting users so defensive? I'm not an "opponent", but there are many pros and cons to all type of heads. Just a discussion and various points of view.

For the record, I have used composters, but I guess that puts me in your 5% exception.

Also, this one seems more substantiated by evidence of queries and suggestion of how to use a standard holding tank........ 95% of those users try to use them like there we a household toilet, which causes 100% of the issues. There is no reason for a holding tank or lines to smell, but they always smell do to improper procedure. Same as with composters. No doubt, on the other hand that a composter has few parts and less maintenance overall. Just not quite as simple as the "proponents" like to claim. Carrying gallons of pee ashore ain't for everyone.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

We have owned 3 different types of composters over the last 9 years and had experiences with both holding tanks and Lectra Sans for about 17 years before we got the first composter. All I can state is my opinion and there's no doubt, for us, the composting toilet is the way to go for various reasons. But beware, my opinion may not hold any value as we used to own a mono but since owning a variety of multihulls for the last 20+ years, we would never go back to a monohull!


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## oceangirl (Sep 17, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> This is a comment that composting head "proponents" often throw out there, obviously without evidence.
> 
> Why are composting users so defensive? I'm not an "opponent", but there are many pros and cons to all type of heads. Just a discussion and various points of view.
> 
> ...


Yes, dry heads are not for everybody!! I've lived aboard since I was 19, over twenty years ( give or take five years . ). I've tried every head under the sun, there just isn't a perfect solution. We didn't mind going to the pump out station, wet heads that are working properly and don't stink are great. In fact, when plumbed directly overboard, using as little as two or three feet of hose, wet heads are as close to trouble free as you can get. 
The problems come with the holding tank. When I moved aboard my hubby's boat Rain Dog, the sanitation system was a bit of a mess despite being recently overhauled. The head stunk. Whacked you in the face every time you opened the head door. We tried everything. After replacing every single component, adding more ventilation to the holding tank, feeding the holding tank enzymes, diligently promoting the balance of bacteria, never flushing toilet paper, never using chems that would disrupt the supposed harmony of good bacteria, thousands of dollars of high quality hose and heads, etc. etc. , the head still stank. One night, lying in my stinky boat, I realized that the boats sanitation system's design was all wrong. It was a *design* problem. No amount of fixing would create a permanent solution because the basic design was all wrong. One example, our fiberglass holding tank is built into the hull, next to the head,but this still requires long lengths of hose for the vented loop and various discharge options. The tank, which is under our vberth where we sleep, is capped off with thick PVC lid, secured by a hundred screws. Each screw a potential leak. Even if I made a fiberglass lid and glassed the holding tank up, it would still need an access port, and there again is the potential leak. 6" of foam between me and that tank. Just a bad design. 
So sometimes, it is not the user, sometimes its a sanitation system that is designed to stink. 
Hope that made sense, sorry for the thread drift.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

oceangirl said:


> We are full time liveaboards/cruisers and just came back from the Bahamas. We love the dry head( well as much as you can love a head).
> Pros
> No hoses, no stink, easy to sanitize the whole system.( I'm a germaphobe).
> There is no issue under way except I do not allow the pee tank past 2/3 full to avoid spills. Even in the heat of a Bahamian summer we did not have bug or odor problems. As long as you think of the head as a dry head, you are not composting in the traditional sense ( using microbes to break down the poo), you are drying the poo out (desiccating, denying microbes to live and breed) using good dry peat. I like to add poo powder to help speed up the desiccation process since we empty the poo tank around every 10 days( it can be as often as 1 week, or as long as a month).
> ...


I want to thank you for what seems to be the most honest and detailed explanation of the realities of a dry head.
Our heads don't stink and they only require several hours of maintenance a year, so I am not especially unhappy with them. But not having to deal with the rules and regulations of normal marine heads were we ever to return to the US, is the main reason for my curiosity.
I seriously wonder where one would find peat in the Caribbean, or beyond. The waste disposal sounds like a bit of a pain also, as I would no more wish to store gallons of urine aboard any more than I like the idea of holding tanks.
Anyway, thank you again for your honesty.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

oceangirl said:


> ....So sometimes, it is not the user, sometimes its a sanitation system that is designed to stink....


Total agreement. Although, bad engineering is always correctable.

The one issue you didn't mention is the number one mistake boaters make with their flush heads and holding tanks. They don't flush enough water, in the proper sequence, to clear the waste lines.

In your house, you just push the lever and walk away. Everything goes down hill. Newbs on the boat, have this mental picture, but it's not typically how marine heads work.

When there is the vented loop you described in this post, there will be standing water in that hose at all times. If you don't provide clean water, it will eventually stink, as there is no oxygen in that hose, so anaerobic bacteria (the stinky ones) will thrive. Indeed that hose is also in your head space, so that will get your nose, as soon as you open the door.

The proper procedure for a marine flush head (manual or electric) is to first pump the waste into the hose. Then bring in a full bowl of clean water and pump that through continuously to chase the waste through the lines. You need at least one gallon of clean water per flush and sometimes more.

Seawater itself has bacteria, so if you're going to leave the boat for more than a day or so, filling that last bowl with fresh water from the sink and flushing it, so that is what is standing in the hose up to the vented loop is also important.

The whole business, be it flushable or composters, just isn't intuitive to the landlubber.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Total agreement. Although, bad engineering is always correctable.
> 
> The one issue you didn't mention is the number one mistake boaters make with their flush heads and holding tanks. They don't flush enough water, in the proper sequence, to clear the waste lines.
> 
> ...


I think you are right, most people don't flush enough water while using the standard wet head as they want to space the time out between pumpouts. On the size boats we have owned the standard size of the holding tank has been about 35 gallons. If flushing the correct amount of water through the head, that would mean a trip to the pump out station every 3 days or possibly less. Both systems have their pluses and minuses and in the end it's a personal choice.

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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smj said:


> ....If flushing the correct amount of water through the head, that would mean a trip to the pump out station every 3 days or possibly less......


That is definitely the case. I often hear about folks pumping out every week or two and find it highly unlikely they are flushing properly.

A buddy winters on his boat and his marina only pumps once per week, on a schedule. He's alone, so I think it works okay. However, even a couple would find that a stretch, I think. Depends on holding tank size, of course.

As for needing to pumpout every few days, I'm not too into cruising and staying in one place for much longer than that anyway. If I'm swinging on the hook for 48hrs I get ants in my pants. Most often, I just pump overboard, during a passage to the next port. When a harbor has a pumpout boat, I always take advantage. That couldn't be easier. No docking, no moving, no hauling anything to shore.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Part of the design problem is obviously the reason for foul odors being emitted into the cabin space via the head. That flexible, ribbed tubing that connects everything is quite porous, thereby allowing any residual residue to seep through the material and into the head or cabin. Unfortunately, there is no good method of cleansing that tubing completely. Sure, we could run some detergent and chlorine through the tubing, allow it to soak a few hours then flush it out, but those chemicals would then enter our holding tank and kill any and all of the bacteria needed to liquefy the sludge in the tank. And, even after the tank is pumped out, those chemical residues continue to kill the bacteria, so that's not a viable option.

I've had serious thoughts about changing out all of my flexible, ribbed tubing and replacing it with PVC pipe, which is far less porous. Yes, it would be a major undertaking to do this with PVC, and it would require several 90-degree connections to route the pipes properly, but that alone would really help eliminate much of the odors caused by the tubing.

My tank is made of welded stainless, but the last time I looked at it, the welds were beginning to show significant signs of rust, which is a cause for concern as well. And, my tank does not have an inspection port, something I may add this winter if I have nothing better to do. As for the vented loop, that problem can easily be solved by connecting a length of tubing to the top of the vent, then installing a thru-hull vent, which I've done for some of my friends. This vents those gasses overboard instead of allowing them to flow into the head. Not a big job and very inexpensive to install.

I agree, most folks rarely pass enough water through the system to thoroughly rinse the lines, and when you do, this usually fills my 35 gallon holding tank in less than a week. Also, I add liquid Rid-X to my system at least once a week, which, hopefully, helps keep the odor level down and liquefy the solids in the tank. 

The one thing I must caution everyone with a conventional system and holding tank about is frequently checking the tank's vent. Critters seem to love to invade the vent and take up residence there. This includes a host of spider species and mud daubers, all of which tend to find the tiniest crevices to invade. It really doesn't take a lot of spider poop or mud to completely plug the vent. If that vent is plugged, when the pumpout boat shows up with his high speed pump, that tank can easily collapse, or worse yet, implode. If that happens, you will have a real mess on your hands. The mud daubers liked my vent so much that after removing their nests more than a dozen times in a single year, I ended up hot melt gluing a small patch of screening over the vent to keep them out, which this far has done a reasonable job. Gotta check that screening once in a while, though, just to be on the safe side.

I'm not a big fan of composting heads. Some folks claim they are odor free, but for the most part, I still seem to be able to detect a faint odor. Additionally, storing pee just doesn't appeal to me either. Ironically, while it is illegal to discharge pee via the head, you can legally pee overboard. Urine is sterile, non toxic and pretty much innocuous. A lot of folks don't seem to look at it this way, but that a reality of life. As for dumping the composting head into a plastic bag and taking it to the dumpster, which will eventually end up in a landfill, that just doesn't seem to make a lot of ecological sense to me. Landfills are full of poo encased in plastic baby diapers, which in some areas constitutes as much as half the landfill volume.

All the best,

Gary


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> That is definitely the case. I often hear about folks pumping out every week or two and find it highly unlikely they are flushing properly.


This is/was the number one reason I switched to a composting head (or desiccating, if you prefer). It wasn't to be green, or b/c our standard head didn't work well. It was simply to avoid the constant problem of dumping out every couple of weeks. On the Great Lakes we don't have the option of dumping overboard. Since I like to travel in remote areas, this became a major limiting factor.

As we head into the Atlantic I still expect to make great use of the composter b/c unlike Minnewaska here, I almost never stay less than a few days at an anchorage. Two seasons ago we went out and stayed in one small anchorage on Lake Superior for an entire month. It was glorious! A composter gives me essentially unlimited duration.

The other major benefit, especially for a smallish boat like ours, is the significant recovery of storage space. In the space that used to house our 25 gallon holding tank, and all the associated plumbing, I can now store two inflatable kayaks, my asym and drifter, plus lesser used tools and liquids. I even have a spare windlass in there. It's wonderful!

I don't think a desiccating head is necessarily any greener than a standard marine head. It depends on how the final outflows are managed. I must admit I feel uncomfortable bagging and dumping into in a garbage bin (and haven't yet done so), although clearly it's not much of an issue given the volume of diapers and other sanitary products that end up in landfill.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Mike, the most ecological way to dump the composted stuff is in the woods, off the path, under a tree. It's all organic material after all. I admit this isn't an option in a city, where perhaps a dumster is easier. Anyway, I'm preaching to the converted in your case...

Personally, I empty the urine bottle over the side every night and I have no problem with that. Urine is harmless. I don't live in the US and there are no discharge laws here. Every boat that I know here has no holding tank and the discharge is directly into the sea. I chose a composting toilet for ecological reasons and because of the simplicity of the system. I HATED my expensive pump toilet that came with the boat. Every time I came to the boat there was a smell (granted it went away after flushing). Now when I arrive there is zero odor. People who have not had a composting toilet on their boat simply don't undertand them and are prone to be sceptical.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

copacabana said:


> Mike, the most ecological way to dump the composted stuff is in the woods, off the path, under a tree. It's all organic material after all. I admit this isn't an option in a city, where perhaps a dumster is easier. Anyway, I'm preaching to the converted in your case...


Oh, absolutely agree copacabana. So far I've usually managed to find a remote place to dump, off in the woods. In a few cases I've dumped into an existing outhouse (hole in the ground style). I've yet to be forced into bagging and dumping in a garbage bin, but that day may come as we move further into urban areas ... or maybe it won't.

As you know, one of the great things about a composter is that the dump-date comes slowly. It's not like a holding tank which has a definite maximum volume. It's not hard to manage or time a composter's tank dump to when it is best done.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Laws aside for the moment. What's the difference between spreading the composting material on the land, which rain will spread, and just pumping a holding tank overboard? Both being spread in the environment.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

travlineasy said:


> .....Urine is sterile, non toxic and pretty much innocuous. A lot of folks don't seem to look at it this way, but that a reality of life......


Tree huggers argue there are pharmas in urine. I think they'll only be happy when there are no humans walking on earth.


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## oceangirl (Sep 17, 2008)

If you desiccate the poo tank you can dispose of your peat in a dumpster with no qualms, the bad microbes are dead or reduced enough to be safe for a dumpster. Hopefully pump out stations will get on board and provide used peat disposal. This would be a good idea since composted/dry heads are becoming more and more popular, which increases the chance of people disposing improperly desiccated peat.
There are studies being done to test the viability of dry heads in dense population areas, low infrastructure areas, large floating boating communities. Googling will give you some great info if you are so inclined, just be sure you are reading about dry heads not composting heads, the difference is separating the urine ( dry head). The key to proper disposal is drying the peat out, Low moisture, not time, is the key (nother difference between composting and desiccating)


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Laws aside for the moment. What's the difference between spreading the composting material on the land, which rain will spread, and just pumping a holding tank overboard? Both being spread in the environment.


Coconut fibre and composting feces are best left on land where they provide excellent nutrients for plants. The sea is better equipted to deal with waste produced in the sea.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

travlineasy said:


> Additionally, storing pee just doesn't appeal to me either. Ironically, while it is illegal to discharge pee via the head, you can legally pee overboard.


Yea, try to tell that to the judge after you get a ticket for public urination. I don't think it is any more legal than discharging via the head, just a different statute.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Laws aside for the moment. What's the difference between spreading the composting material on the land, which rain will spread, and just pumping a holding tank overboard? Both being spread in the environment.


I'm sure we could find differences if we compared specifics of each, but in general I think they are fundamental the same. Natural processes can manage a certain volume of waste, converting it to benign and then useful components. The key is to not overwhelm the natural systems ... something our civilization continually does.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

travlineasy said:


> Part of the design problem is obviously the reason for foul odors being emitted into the cabin space via the head. That flexible, ribbed tubing that connects everything is quite porous, thereby allowing any residual residue to seep through the material and into the head or cabin. Unfortunately, there is no good method of cleansing that tubing completely. Sure, we could run some detergent and chlorine through the tubing, allow it to soak a few hours then flush it out, but those chemicals would then enter our holding tank and kill any and all of the bacteria needed to liquefy the sludge in the tank. And, even after the tank is pumped out, those chemical residues continue to kill the bacteria, so that's not a viable option.
> 
> I've had serious thoughts about changing out all of my flexible, ribbed tubing and replacing it with PVC pipe, which is far less porous. Yes, it would be a major undertaking to do this with PVC, and it would require several 90-degree connections to route the pipes properly, but that alone would really help eliminate much of the odors caused by the tubing.
> 
> ...


Thanks Gary, you've confirmed my love for the composting head
I would think the mixture of poop and peat would be one of the least toxic things at the land fill. And the plastic bags? I'm guessing most people dispose of their trash in plastic bags, including the sociably acceptable way of the disposing of ones dogs poop!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## oceangirl (Sep 17, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Laws aside for the moment. What's the difference between spreading the composting material on the land, which rain will spread, and just pumping a holding tank overboard? Both being spread in the environment.


Great question. Problem with pumping overboard is the influx of nutrients can cause an imbalance, too much nutrients, which triggers algae blooms. Human feces is linked to reef bleaching/death. Elkhorn coral in Florida is dying at an alarming rate due to white pox, which is caused ( strongly linked) by human waste.

Id guess dessiccated peat is a little better but neither is good for going overboard imo. Throwing used peat in a landfill ( bury it on your property) is better, it's soil, dirt. Plus, I've not done it, but I just don't see how I can dump a bucketful of dirt over the side without some of it going airborne. I'm then at risk for breathing it in. Better to throw it away, we are talking about a minuscule amount of peat each month ( 2-4 gallon ziplock baggy). I think folks who have never used a dry head think that the holding tank waste amount is comparable to dry head waste amount, it is not even close.

Please don't pump overboard, it been proven time and time again that it is not good. You think your poo is just a drop in the ocean but the cruising community is too big now for the ocean to keep up.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

miatapaul said:


> Yea, try to tell that to the judge after you get a ticket for public urination. I don't think it is any more legal than discharging via the head, just a different statute.


Paul. I actually covered a case where a person was ticketed for peeing in the water, however, he was charged with indecent exposure - not illegal discharging into the waters of Chesapeake Bay. When asked about this very matter, the judge said in the eyes of the law, peeing in the water was not considered an illegal discharge of a dangerous or toxic substance because human urine is sterile and non-toxic, and not as toxic as ordinary rain. When I published his statement in my newspaper column, I got lots of nasty letters from tree huggers. But, tree huggers tend to send lots of nasty letters and emails about everything that rubs them the wrong way. You should have read the ones I got about how deer hunting in reservoir watersheds reduced the level of runoff and pollution in Baltimore's area reservoirs.

All the best,

Gary :2 boat:


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

oceangirl said:


> ..... the cruising community is too big now for the ocean to keep up.


Really? The cruising community is infinitesimal compared to the ocean.

Some of the replies above seems to think I was suggesting dumping the peat overboard. I was not. I was asking about spreading compost poo on the forest floor as opposed holding tank poo in the water. Suggesting one is different than the other is biased, IMO.

Most of the issues noted above were caused by land based sewage and fertilizer, not cruising boats. Ironically, you pump.out at the marina and th sewage treatment plant puts it back in the ocean. Stupid.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I agree. The entire US cruising community's contribution to the nutrients that flows into Chesapeake Bay in a single year is equivalent to a speck of fly poop in a mountain of pepper. Every year, millions upon millions of gallons of raw sewage are spilled into Chesapeake Bay by overflowing and overloaded sewage treatment plants, and much of this goes unreported, or played down as in the case of Baltimore City, because under state law, spills of less than 10,000-gallons do not have to be reported. And the biggies, rarely get any press, though once in a while they do as in https://www.baltimorebrew.com/2014/08/15/3-2-million-gallons-of-sewage-flowed-into-harbor-during-record-rain/. If every sailboat that plied the bay's waters were to dump their pee overboard, no one would likely ever notice, and that pee would probably be the cleanest waters that entered the bay. That total volume would be akin to peeing in the ocean and expecting the tide to rise!

Happy New Year,

Gary


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

travlineasy said:


> I agree. The entire US cruising community's contribution to the nutrients that flows into Chesapeake Bay in a single year is equivalent to a speck of fly poop in a mountain of pepper. Every year, millions upon millions of gallons of raw sewage are spilled into Chesapeake Bay by overflowing and overloaded sewage treatment plants, and much of this goes unreported, or played down as in the case of Baltimore City, because under state law, spills of less than 10,000-gallons do not have to be reported. And the biggies, rarely get any press, though once in a while they do as in https://www.baltimorebrew.com/2014/08/15/3-2-million-gallons-of-sewage-flowed-into-harbor-during-record-rain/. If every sailboat that plied the bay's waters were to dump their pee overboard, no one would likely ever notice, and that pee would probably be the cleanest waters that entered the bay. That total volume would be akin to peeing in the ocean and expecting the tide to rise!
> 
> Happy New Year,
> 
> Gary


I have been watching this since the early 60's in Frisco Bay. All the liveaboards and house boats in Sausalito were being targeted as 'major polluters' while the farms and factories in the central valley were dumping extremely toxic chemicals and pesticides in the rivers that feed the bay, in massive quantities.
Big money has lobbyists and our community has none. When have we been able to buy 'pollution credits"?
It's all just a big con, using the yachting community as the fall guy for big business and governmental pollution. Nobody really cares about our waste, they care that they can say, "See, we did something about pollution. We've forced all those yachts to clean up their act." Mean while.....well we all know who is really polluting the water, right?


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

You people have more tolerance than I do, I dealt with a composting toilet in a cottage for a few years, hated that disgusting thing with a passion! Can't imagine dealing with one on a boat.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

Tanski said:


> You people have more tolerance than I do, I dealt with a composting toilet in a cottage for a few years, hated that disgusting thing with a passion! Can't imagine dealing with one on a boat.


Probably a different animal altogether. Most shoreside composters mix the solids and liquids and rely on a heating element to dry the mixture. The marine composters are actually desiccating heads, they separate the solids and liquids and don't have the problems of the others types.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

smj said:


> Probably a different animal altogether. Most shoreside composters mix the solids and liquids and rely on a heating element to dry the mixture. The marine composters are actually desiccating heads, they separate the solids and liquids and don't have the problems of the others types.


Yes, I'd be curious to know what version you had Tanski. I know most land-based systems are as SMJ says. Sun-Mar is the company I'm familiar with who makes them. I have used them in other people's camps/cottages, and have always heard good things about them, but I've never owned one.

Sun-Mar makes a marine version of their self contained head. I considered it when I began the research that led to me installing our Nature's Head. It seemed good, but its stated full-time capacity was for 1-2 adults, which seemed too small. Later on I got to know a fellow sailer who had one on his cruising boat. He used it for a few seasons, but it never worked well. He swapped it out for a Nature's Head.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

travlineasy said:


> Paul. I actually covered a case where a person was ticketed for peeing in the water, however, he was charged with indecent exposure - not illegal discharging into the waters of Chesapeake Bay. When asked about this very matter, the judge said in the eyes of the law, peeing in the water was not considered an illegal discharge of a dangerous or toxic substance because human urine is sterile and non-toxic, and not as toxic as ordinary rain. When I published his statement in my newspaper column, I got lots of nasty letters from tree huggers. But, tree huggers tend to send lots of nasty letters and emails about everything that rubs them the wrong way. You should have read the ones I got about how deer hunting in reservoir watersheds reduced the level of runoff and pollution in Baltimore's area reservoirs.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Gary :2 boat:


And today, they would likely be labeled a sex offender!


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

Thinking about those who seem to get all worked up about urine disposal......wonder what they do when they're in the shower and need to pee? Do they hold it, dry off, go to a land based sanitary facility to pee?

Of course they do. To pee in the boat shower while in the marina would be wrong, and hypocritical. And according to some, even illegal.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

miatapaul said:


> And today, they would likely be labeled a sex offender!


Either that or a porn star. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

2Gringos said:


> wonder what they do when they're in the shower and need to pee? Of course they do. To pee in the boat shower while in the marina would be wrong, and hypocritical. And according to some, even illegal.


I have no idea what YOU do in your shower, but what I do NOT do is pee in it. Both of my showers use sumps and I really don't want these smelling of urine or having to clean the urine out of them.
YUCK!
I'll use the equipment designed for it; my heads.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Capta, are you trying too tell us that you have never, ever peed in a shower? If the answer is yes, you are probably the only person on Planet Earth that has not. Just sayin' 

All the best,

Gary


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## twoshoes (Aug 19, 2010)

Heck, sometimes I get in there _just_ to pee.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

Can't remember last time I showered without peeing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

travlineasy said:


> Capta, are you trying too tell us that you have never, ever peed in a shower? If the answer is yes, you are probably the only person on Planet Earth that has not. Just sayin'
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Gary


Yea and I bet he never runs aground either.


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## ambianceack (Aug 27, 2006)

I haven't peed in the shower although I touched a soft bottom once...I am not a chemist but dumping pee overboard doesn't seem smart since it contains Urea which is about 46% nitrogen, which helps plant growth and would be a part in contributing to stagnated harbors (eutrophication etc.) etc...although not much difference between someone swimming and peeing at the same time. Just doesn't seem logical to dump 8 -liters at once in a harbor And yes, I have peed in the water while scuba diving, standing on the back deck and swimming...Granted most of the nitrogen comes from upstream resources for example poor farming practices. Probably best to limit and well... every bit helps.

I also would not dump compost on someone else's land regardless of what country I live in. No difference between that and someones landscape debris, IMO. I do own land that we allow people on for recreation but not for dumping anything. Beyond that, aren't there trace heavy metals in human compost? Perhaps another reason not just to dump waste on someone's land. 

Breville (Cardia bioplastics) makes a compostable and biodegradable bag, which we use to pick up dog poop and might be better than ziplocs in a landfill or getting burned in a incinerator... If it is dry wouldn't brown paper bags be better? 


I do have head smell problems due to poor engineering and ventilation and considering the compost/dry head idea. I digress from the OP but I have learned how the compost head works, so thanks for that. I think it is important to dispose of all waste in a responsible manner.


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

When we bought this old boat in Jacksonville and sailed it down here to Providenciales, we stopped for a weekend in Florida and visited with Rick ( sometimes known as Tropic Cat) on the ICW. Tied up in a little marina there was our first experience watching the manatees. Seemingly knowledgeable Florida sailors told us that 1.) Manatees were an invasive species, not native to the US at all and it was ridiculous that they are protected, and 2.) each adult manatee averaged putting 125 lbs of poop a DAY in the water. Lord only knows how much they pee..

I doubt the average composting toilet would put 125 lbs of poop a year in the ocean. Composting heads are not the problem. It's manatees. We need to eat more manatee.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

2Gringos said:


> When we bought this old boat in Jacksonville and sailed it down here to Providenciales, we stopped for a weekend in Florida and visited with Rick ( sometimes known as Tropic Cat) on the ICW. Tied up in a little marina there was our first experience watching the manatees. Seemingly knowledgeable Florida sailors told us that 1.) Manatees were an invasive species, not native to the US at all and it was ridiculous that they are protected, and 2.) each adult manatee averaged putting 125 lbs of poop a DAY in the water. Lord only knows how much they pee..
> 
> I doubt the average composting toilet would put 125 lbs of poop a year in the ocean. Composting heads are not the problem. It's manatees. We need to eat more manatee.


Now you've gone and done it. I'm waiting for the parade of environmental zelots to lecture you on human vs. sealife poo. We don't deserve to be on the planet. Until you admit that, you're the enemy. 

Discussions above were comparing the composters to holding tanks, according to law (ie no distinction really). Not necessarily logic.

Although, I will say that I hope I'm not walking through someone's poo in the woods one day. Unlike the sea, which will dillute it beyond recognition, the base of that compost dump site tree seems like it could be a no-go zone for a while.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

The West Indian manatee migrates into Florida rivers, such as the Crystal, the Homosassa, and the Chassahowitzka Rivers. The headsprings of these rivers maintain a 22 °C (72 °F) temperature all year. During November to March, about 400 West Indian manatees (according to the National Wildlife Refuge) congregate in the rivers in Citrus County, Florida


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

2Gringos said:


> Seemingly knowledgeable Florida sailors told us that 1.) Manatees were an invasive species, not native to the US at all and it was ridiculous that they are protected, and....


Actually you and those sailors couldn't be more wrong....

Manatee Fact - Native to Florida?

One of the more persistent misconceptions appearing in "Letter to the Editor" columns and comments in response to Service proposals includes the idea that the Florida manatee is an exotic, introduced species. This is not the case.

One source of the persistent "non-native species" myth may come from a study conducted in south Florida in the 1960's. This study assessed the effectiveness of Florida manatees as a means to control exotic aquatic plants and was based on similar work conducted with Antillean manatees in Guyana. While Antillean manatees were never brought to Florida for the purposes of the study, the study generated a lot of publicity and confusion about non-native manatees, exotic plants, and Florida's manatees.

The Florida manatee is one of two sub species of the West Indian manatee. West Indian manatees are a species known to range from Brazil north to Mexico and the southeastern United States, including the Caribbean islands. This species includes two sub species, the Antillean manatee and the Florida manatee. The Antillean manatee ranges from Brazil to Mexico, including the Caribbean islands. The Florida manatee is found in the southeastern United States, with the core of its range here in Florida.

Manatees are well represented in Florida's fossil record. Their remains date back to prehistoric times and they are one of the more common vertebrate fossils known from ancient marine deposits. Manatee remains are also found in Native American rubbish heaps in Florida, sites that pre-date the arrival of the early Spaniards. The early colonists described how these natives hunted the manatee and were quick to appreciate the intrinsic value of the species.

In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, papal decrees and British law sought to dictate who, when, and where these animals could be killed. In 1893, the state of Florida passed legislation that prohibited killing manatees. The West Indian manatee, including both Florida and Antillean sub species, was further protected in 1972 and 1973 with the passage of both the Federal Marine Mammal Protection Act and the Endangered Species Act, respectively. Florida followed suit, further protecting the Florida manatee through state endangered species legislation and subsequently through the Florida Manatee Sanctuary Act in 1978.

The Florida manatee is a significant part of the State's natural, cultural, and historic heritage. By continuing our work together, we can see to it that manatees are a continuing part of our heritage and our future.

Source: USFWS North Florida ESO Are Manatees Native

Lived and educated in Florida most my life and manatees were always known to be a native species!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

I never quite understood composting toilets. So you do not throw the toilet paper in the composter, you need to treat it as trash and store it on the boat till you hit land and throw in a trash can? Or do you throw the toilet paper in the composting toilet?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> I never quite understood composting toilets. So you do not throw the toilet paper in the composter, you need to treat it as trash and store it on the boat till you hit land and throw in a trash can? Or do you throw the toilet paper in the composting toilet?


Our paper goes in the bin. No problem. It desiccates, and eventually composts, just as well as other organic material. I've heard that some compost owners divert their paper, but this practice is more common with standard marine heads.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

TP goes into composting toilet. The more, the better, because keeping compost relatively dry is critical to good composting. It breaks down very well.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

I put the paper in a trash can in the head lined with a plastic bag to be disposed of when full. I find that keeping the paper out of the composter lets you go longer between emptying. Also, I wouldn't want to leave paper in the woods when I dump the composter. It takes a long time to compost and is unsightly. A final comment to Minne- I dump the composter off in the woods, off the beaten path where no one will step (you wouldn't step in it and I never mentioned dumping in someone's garden). It's already mostly dirt anyway and in a very short time it is gone. It is the best possible way to dispose of your waste on this scale.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

copacabana said:


> ......A final comment to Minne- I dump the composter off in the woods, off the beaten path where no one will step (you wouldn't step in it and I never mentioned dumping in someone's garden). It's already mostly dirt anyway and in a very short time it is gone. It is the best possible way to dispose of your waste on this scale.


I'm really just trying to make a point here, I don't care where you dump it.

Nevertheless, you can decide what is off the beaten path (btw, I am frequently off the beaten path, so I'm not sure how you would know), but does the law distinguish? It's an absolute fact that if I dumped an entire holding tank 1/4 mile offshore, it would be completely undetectable onshore. 100% undetectable. But folks and the law, freak out over the idea. No way that desiccated poo is undetectable that quickly.


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

guitarguy56 said:


> Actually you and those sailors couldn't be more wrong....


No. Actually, I am NOT wrong. I reported exactly what those sailors told me. You were not there so I don't quite understand how you can claim that I was lying about what I was told.

Sorry I can't cite Wikipedia to prove it, but it's true. What I wrote is what they told me.

If you'd like, I can go gen up a Wikipedia article to support that I was, in fact, told what I wrote here.


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## Simply Sailing (Jun 9, 2015)

casey1999 said:


> I never quite understood composting toilets. So you do not throw the toilet paper in the composter, you need to treat it as trash and store it on the boat till you hit land and throw in a trash can? Or do you throw the toilet paper in the composting toilet?


Opinions vary about putting toilet paper in the CT or not. It depends on what your end goal is. If you're looking to not have stinky toilet paper in the trash then you have the option of composting it. It does compost and help dry the solids container. (Another advantage of a CT since you should NEVER put toilet paper in a standard marine head. "If it didn't go in your mouth...")
However, other people, like us, choose to continue the method of disposing of toilet paper in the trash like we've always done. (We had a standard marine head for decades, then a bucket for 5 years, now an Air Head CT for 5 years.) When we first got our Air Head our youngest son was still at home, so three of us were using it full time. That is probably the max that a composting head can keep up with, so we were making every effort to make the changings less frequent. That was the initial rationale behind not putting toilet paper in the composter A nice compromise I know some people use is to put just "wet" (i.e. female) toilet paper in the trash and "dirty" toilet paper in the CT. Sounds like a great idea, but I would never be able to do it. I'm a creature of habit. I'd end up having to stare at it and think, "Wet or dirty?" Too much effort, so I put it all in the trash. Again, just a matter of opinion and what your goal is.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

2Gringos said:


> No. Actually, I am NOT wrong. I reported exactly what those sailors told me. You were not there so I don't quite understand how you can claim that I was lying about what I was told.
> 
> Sorry I can't cite Wikipedia to prove it, but it's true. What I wrote is what they told me.
> 
> If you'd like, I can go gen up a Wikipedia article to support that I was, in fact, told what I wrote here.


Never mention the word 'lying' did I? I said they were wrong and you for posting without looking up the scientific facts first.

No need for me to apologize for anything and science and the Florida dept of Fisheries and scientists from Florida State University and University of Florida have already proven that so why would you want to debate it any further?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I should expand on my previous paper post. Feces (dirty) paper goes in our Nature's Head. My wife's "wet" wipes go in a bag for later disposal in a garbage, or a shore fire. Paper in the composter is completely undetectable, even the most recent deposits.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Simply Sailing said:


> .... since you should NEVER put toilet paper in a standard marine head. .....


This is not correct.

Of course, many do manage to clog their heads and, in some cases, it may be because they used too much. However, back to an earlier point, I'm sure its most often because they fail to flush enough clear water to move the paper and waste up to the vented loop or tank and the solids settle back down at the bottom and harden. Do it a few times in a row and it's not the paper that's the problem, it's the user. Too many think that once you can't see it in the bowl, it's gone.

Owners that require this practice are certainly reducing their risk of people flushing incorrectly, but that's about all, IMO.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

On the toilet paper topic. I am not sure where most folks get their toilet paper or what type (I see places like West Marine sell marine toilet paper), but whatever you buy, make sure it dissolves in water. I worked for a public works dept a while back and we started having a big problem of toilets getting clogged. Turned out the janitor had changed the type of toilet paper being used. The new paper would not dissolve in water, even after agitation. Change the paper to a dissolvable type and no problem. Usually the cheaper low grade toilet paper dissolves more easily than the high end stuff.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm really just trying to make a point here, I don't care where you dump it.
> 
> Nevertheless, you can decide what is off the beaten path (btw, I am frequently off the beaten path, so I'm not sure how you would know), but does the law distinguish?


Humm, note to self, make sure Mini wipes feet well before boarding! :laugh


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## lonokai (Dec 21, 2015)

I think I will get one too.!


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

casey1999 said:


> On the toilet paper topic. I am not sure where most folks get their toilet paper or what type (I see places like West Marine sell marine toilet paper), but whatever you buy, make sure it dissolves in water. I worked for a public works dept a while back and we started having a big problem of toilets getting clogged. Turned out the janitor had changed the type of toilet paper being used. The new paper would not dissolve in water, even after agitation. Change the paper to a dissolvable type and no problem. Usually the cheaper low grade toilet paper dissolves more easily than the high end stuff.


Have you seen what the "flushable wipes" are doing to the sewer systems?










They don't break down and are synthetic so they are not bio degradable. Likely going to be banned like the micro-beads.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

miatapaul said:


> Humm, note to self, make sure Mini wipes feet well before boarding! :laugh


Always take my shoes off before boarding. Just a habit. Even if I arrive by dinghy. Just the way I was taught.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

miatapaul said:


> Have you seen what the "flushable wipes" are doing to the sewer systems?....


Never heard the term until recently. Is this any different than a baby wipe?

Personally, baby wipes (unscented for me) are a mandatory personal hygiene product when on passage. Could be several days between real showers. To clean down at least once per day with a baby wipe or two or three makes a huge difference. However, these go in the trash, not down the head.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

We always flushed feces TP in our standard marine head. I've never had a problem doing this with either head system. My sense is that problems that occur have more to do with the volume of paper used, rather than the type. 

As for those wet wipes ... sure are convenient, but for me a daily wash down with a good old facecloth (a sponge bath) does the job without the waste.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> ...As for those wet wipes ... sure are convenient, but for me a daily wash down with a good old facecloth (a sponge bath) does the job without the waste.


Yes, but there are a few square inches that could render that cloth useless, until laundered.

I bet I could get a sponge bath done with a pint of water, but that still may be more than I'm willing to use. I also never feel like I get the soap back off, but I've done it hundreds of times.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Yes, but there are a few square inches that could render that cloth useless, until laundered.
> 
> I bet I could get a sponge bath done with a pint of water, but that still may be more than I'm willing to use. I also never feel like I get the soap back off, but I've done it hundreds of times.


To each his/her own. As long as it keeps a smile on our faces, and more importantly, a smile on our partner's faces when they get down wind -- that's all that matters :sailing-pilgrims:


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Never heard the term until recently. Is this any different than a baby wipe?
> 
> Personally, baby wipes (unscented for me) are a mandatory personal hygiene product when on passage. Could be several days between real showers. To clean down at least once per day with a baby wipe or two or three makes a huge difference. However, these go in the trash, not down the head.


The only difference is they come with more "adult" scents and are a bit smaller. Most of the toilet paper companies are marketing them. Unlike with baby wipes they get flushed so they are a bit smaller so as to not plug toilets. Baby wipes, when used to change diapers are normally wrapped up in the diaper and thrown out with the diaper so clogging is not an issue.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

miatapaul said:


> The only difference is they come with more "adult" scents and are a bit smaller. Most of the toilet paper companies are marketing them. Unlike with baby wipes they get flushed so they are a bit smaller so as to not plug toilets. Baby wipes, when used to change diapers are normally wrapped up in the diaper and thrown out with the diaper so clogging is not an issue.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


I think I will stick with a pack of unscented baby wipes aboard. I hate commercial perfumes of all kinds and it sounds like baby wipes are larger.

When I'm going more than a day, without a shower, I find using these to clean private parts and arm pits, more as necessary, is a huge hygiene improvement. Hygiene being very important to comfort. I typically use 2-3 and throw them in the trash.

I admit that the smallest amount of fresh water on my face is huge too.

Then, there is nothing like that real hot water shower, once you arrive. It's one of those things that has significant importance aboard, that one takes for granted ashore.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Haven't you guys ever heard of jumping over the side and scrubbing down in seawater, then taking a quick rinse with a solar shower? Works great, the saltwater is quickly washed off with less than a pint of water and you don't smell bad. I have done this many, many times with no ill effects, no shark bites, no problems of any kind. Oh, I use Dove unscented bar soap, which seems to foam up pretty good in salt water. When I run out of Dove, I switch to Dove dish detergent on a sponge, shower with the saltwater washdown system, then jump under the solar shower for a few seconds. I also have a shower in the head, and the shower-head is one that is very miserly on water consumption. Probably uses less than a gallon for a 5 minute shower. My freshwater tank capacity is 75-gallons, so I can go for quite a while before it needs a refill.

As for the baby wipes and the adult wipes, they DO NOT decompose in a timely manner. We used them for a few months at home, right after I had hemorrhoidal surgery, and about six months later, had out septic tank pumped out. They were still in tact, and the septic tank guy told me that they were one of the main problems leading to septic tank failure other than the use of chlorine bleach. Apparently, some will sneak past the diverter and plug up the drain field. Yes, the package says they are biodegradable, however, it does not tell you how long it takes for them to biodegrade. Kinda like nuke wastes, I think. 

all the best,

Gary


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

travlineasy said:


> Haven't you guys ever heard of jumping over the side and scrubbing down in seawater, then taking a quick rinse with a solar shower? Works great, the saltwater is quickly washed off with less than a pint of water and you don't smell bad.


Hmmm, Lake Superior hovers around 4C (40F), so you jump in first 

Kidding, of course. Actually, yours is always our first choice, even up on the cold Great Lakes. I'm sure this will carry on as we move into salt water.



travlineasy said:


> As for the baby wipes and the adult wipes, they DO NOT decompose in a timely manner.


That's OK. As long as they're flushed or tossed away, we never have to worry about them . Most importantly, at least for the companies that sell them, they are a consumable product with a never-ending sales run now that the demand has been created.


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

I just checked, and the sea water under us right now is 27 deg. C. Almost 81 deg. F. It must be winter, it's starting to get a bit chilly. I just had to turn the air conditioner in the salon down a notch. I do think the sea is still warm enough for a quick bath. We get uncomfortable in temperatures much below the mid 70's.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

travlineasy said:


> Haven't you guys ever heard of jumping over the side and scrubbing down in seawater, then taking a quick rinse with a solar shower?......


Absolutely!

The wipes are great for passage making, when taking a salt water bath is technically a MOB. Even when on a long coastal passage and dropping the hook at night, some legs are up before dawn, coffee at the helm, breakfast when more crew wakes up. The wipes are much faster than taking a dip. Probably safer than doing so in the dark.

The other big advantage of Gary's method is keeping humidity out of the cabin down below and having more room, whether you wash in the salt water or have a dish sprayer at the transom. I'm also sure the dish sprayer uses less water than the head/shower.

I've only taken a transom shower with a pair of swim trunks on. Admittedly, I feel like that is marginally less effective, even reaching underneath with the soap. I've lost track of how many people we've witnessed taking the transom shower naked, crowded anchorage and all. They are often images one wishes they could erase from memory. Supermodels, must all take showers below.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Different strokes for different folks.
Both heads have macerators. No issues with clogging. We go sailing and find getting three or more miles off shore not much of an issue. So holding tanks not a problem. Use land facilities when in a marina. 
We just put in a watermaker so showers offshore shouldn't be an issue. Have separate shower stall in back head. Find use less water if not rushed. Wet water off, soap while off, water on briefly for rinse off. Find Dawn works best if washing in salt. 
But in past have a doubled up garbage bag left in the lazerette for all stinkies. Baby wipes go there. Have paper bag in heads for them first.
Still think I have no desire to be walking through any part of my boat with containers of excretment when it's bumpy offshore.
Understand CTs may make great sense for some. I find its like religious zealots who have trouble understanding it's not a universal truth. Given much of the year we pay per bag to throw out garbage and have no suitable place for dumping not really interested in paying to get rid of excrement.
BTW- flush with salt offshore but with fresh coastal. No smell.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

outbound said:


> Still think I have no desire to be walking through any part of my boat with containers of excretment when it's bumpy offshore.


I take it you have no holding tank then?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

copacabana said:


> I take it you have no holding tank then?


If you're walking your holding tank through your boat, you're doing it wrong.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

outbound said:


> Different strokes for different folks.
> 
> Both heads have macerators. No issues with clogging. We go sailing and find getting three or more miles off shore not much of an issue. So holding tanks not a problem. Use land facilities when in a marina.
> 
> ...


We love our composter and I'm happy you love your holding tank set up. We have no 12v macerators, holding tanks, hoses, hose clamps, vented loops, seacocks, and no stinking holes in our hull for the through hulls. And let's face it, 99% of people on land pay to get rid of their excrement through either septic system maintenance or city sewer bills. Most boaters also pay pump out fees to rid themselves of excrement. I'm not a religious zealot but have owned both a standard holding tank setup and a composter and I make my choice.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Smj seems you have a good attitude towards sh-t. Please don't lose it. Was just responding to others who don't share our mutual live and let live attitude. Never inferred you made a bad choice for you. Just suggest everyone think it through if it's the right choice for them. Think this decision needs to be informed by how you use your boat and where.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

S- perhaps some examples will inform. We seriously considered doing a CT for one of the heads. Builder talked us out of it when we discussed how we would be using the boat. He was right.
Sloppy transit down the coast. Never less than 20 with periods in the 30s. Gusts higher. Beat with no safe landfalls. Five people on the boat. 4 men and my bride. 5 days port to port. Foulies off just to use head or sleep. The pee bucket would have been filled several times over. Peeing over the rail would have been difficult in the wet and cold and mixed company. 
Anchor in lee of the trades off an island. Beautiful spot. Reef and rocks on one side with island on the other. Boat comes out with guards They are not friendly when we are informed island is privately owned and we are not to land under any circumstance. They say staying there is fine as long as we don't land. Stay just hanging out snorkeling and lounging until food starts to run out. Wouldn't be a problem with a CT but think we'd be asked to leave if a lump of solids was observed floating by. 
On passage. It's slow. Takes 11 days and mostly bumpy. Due to weather and crew very tired. Last thing I want to do is deal with a head carrying stuff. Just want to do watch, be alert enough for safety when others on watch and sleep. Another task for me. Couldn't reasonably ask crew to do this chore. 
Have impromptu party with about a dozen on the boat. Some leave. Some more come on. Goes late and some hang out. Some not cruisers but guests of other cruisers. Easy to tell them" nothing that didn't come out of you and never more than 7 sheets then push the button". No issues beyond putting new TP on the rollers.
Yes I very much like the idea of CTs and think they make great sense for many but accept not everyone. 
BTW if you use high quality hose clamps, hoses etc. maintenance is not that big a deal as you seem to imply. Big deal is insuring proper head etiquette and using no chemicals. I assume it's the same for CTs.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smj said:


> ......... Most boaters also pay pump out fees to rid themselves of excrement....


Actually, we dump or pump at least once per week. I don't recall the last time I paid for either. If there is a pumpout boat, I usually tip the operator, but that's maybe once per year. $hitty job.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Actually, we dump or pump at least once per week. I don't recall the last time I paid for either. If there is a pumpout boat, I usually tip the operator, but that's maybe once per year. $hitty job.


You are right, the composter would have made more sense 15-20 years ago when pumpouts were few and far between and also could be quite expensive.
I'm a big fan of the composter but I can understand some peoples preference for the standard system.

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## josnyder (Jan 8, 2016)

Would like to hear what peoples experience has been with the use of composting heads. How is the smell? Mess? Clean up? Are you happy with the change or not?

Thanks,
Jordan Snyder
s/v Base Camp - Pearson 31-2


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## alctel (Jan 25, 2014)

No smell, no real mess (although overflowing the piss jug is always a BAD TIME) and cleanup is really easy. Very happy I changed. It's hard to force myself to look sympathetic when dockmates are complaining about holding tank issues.

Again though, I would not use one if I had a crew of 3 or more. Handles one or two people fine though.


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## josnyder (Jan 8, 2016)

Ah, good call. I like the suggestion of 3 or more, that makes perfect sense. I just upgraded all my sanitation lines and pretty happy so far with the minimal odor now.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Composting or conventional - they can both be good or bad.

What I find interesting about these threads is that in general it is those with smelly, possibly badly designed holding tank systems that are the ones changing to a composting head. A good holding tank system does not smell and is easy to maintain. 

Hose runs should be as short as possible - IO have been on boats where the hose runs look like a LA freeway complete with cloverleafs.

Hoses should never run level - they should go from the head up to an anti-siphon and then downhill to the tank without any dips that can hold waste. The best hose will permeate if waste is left in them.

Y-valves should only be used if necessary - they aren't always needed. The less connections the better.

Vents should be large - 3/4" ideally and there should be 2. Same reason you cannot ventilate a house by opening one window, one is needed for air in and another for air out. If you ever come across an open air waste treatment pond there is rarely any smell - I have seen them in the heat of Mexico without odor. Those small screened vents are close to useless.

Just because the builder installed the system does not mean it is done correctly. 

Simple is always better if the result is the same. Especially in the tight spaces of a boat.

While there are many well designed systems the one I like is on Nigel Calder's boat. His holding tank is above and behind the head. All waste goes into the tank. There is a valve at the bottom of the tank as well as a reachable through hull. The waste goes into the top of the tank. An anti-siphon is not needed. If you are in a harbor close the valve. If at sea it is opened and all waste goes straight out. When empty leave the through hull open but close the valve at the tank bottom. This allows the hose below the tank to be rinsed clean. There is a deck pump-out as well.

Changing head systems is somewhat similar to switching from diesel to electric drive - very few switch out a good diesel for electric, just those with old high maintenance engines that came with the boat.


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

What I'm finding in these threads is that almost 100% of the negative comments about composting toilets are from people with absolutely no experience with them at all. Whereas almost all of the positive comments are from people who actually have used them and know what they're talking about.

Same thing with Portabotes.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

2Gringos said:


> What I'm finding in these threads is that almost 100% of the negative comments about composting toilets are from people with absolutely no experience with them at all. Whereas almost all of the positive comments are from people who actually have used them and know what they're talking about.
> 
> Same thing with Portabotes.


I think it's been said before that the majority of the people with the positive comments also have had experience with the typical holding tank setup yet they prefer the composter. And my next dinghy will be a Portabote

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## Simply Sailing (Jun 9, 2015)

alctel said:


> Again though, I would not use one if I had a crew of 3 or more. Handles one or two people fine though.


I agree with more than 3. Our youngest son was still living at home when we got our Air Head. It kept up with three of us, but we had to be careful not to "over power" it and we had to change it more frequently, about every 3 weeks. But for ease, 1 or 2 is preferable, absolutely.


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## Simply Sailing (Jun 9, 2015)

Couldn't be happier. Air Head users for over 5 years, best upgrade we've ever made to the boat in 15 years of fulltime liveaboard/cruising. No mess, super easy to clean, no smell if maintained properly (meaning if you use coco coir in the amount recommended by the manufacturer, if you use the screen and fan as instructed), no bugs(the complaint that many non-users continually spout off about. Few people I know with CT actually HAVE a bug problem if they use the screen for the fan as suggested, yet this is the complaint that a lot of people are afraid of and continue to mention on these forums. If there are bugs, it's operator error), and we are 100% Coast Guard compliant. In the Caribbean where there are few operational pump outs, I often wonder what people are doing? Some of these boats never move from their harbor mooring, so I know they're not going 3 miles offshore. At least a composting toilet gives you a chance to not pollute harbors.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

I will say this, after living with the Wilcox Headmate for a dozen years, and watching friends struggle with the Jabsco bottom of the line models, I was ready to go to composte 

My new to me boat has a Raritan and for the last few seasons it's operated almost flawlessly. I flush with fresh water, use no harsh chemicals and give it the occasional vinegar soak for a few days and then dump in a bit of cooking oil for lubrication.

So, the moral of the story is that I probably just jinxed myself and will spend most of next summer up to my elbows in human waste. Idiot.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Another happy composter owner, in this case a Nature's Head. As others have said, it is one of the best upgrades we've made to our cruising life. 

And just to be clear, I didn't switch b/c we were having any problems with our standard marine head. I switched b/c for our cruising lifestyle, a CT offers significant advantages. 

It's not right for everyone. Max 3 people (ideal with only two). And you do have to a bit more intimate with your outflows. But for the space savings, simplicity, added safety and freedom to travel or stay near indefinitely anywhere, it's just great!


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

We were having problems. The 30 year old stainless holding tank welds were getting brittle. When I started the job, my intention was to remove the holding tank, take it to a local welder to either be patched up or duplicated, and then re-install it with new hoses and I was planning to purchase two Lavac heads with both electric and manual inline pumps. That was Plan A.

I won't revisit the experience, or the profound effect it had upon my thinking in this short reply. 

We now have two Nature's Heads in our catamaran. We're fortunate in that they last a long time between hauls with only one person using them. The dessication/ composting pretty much stays up with you. We could double up on one for a week or two and let the other one really dry out if needed, but so far it hasn't been an issue.

In support of Mike's comment about familiarity with outflows, I would agree that composting toilets will put you in touch with your inner farmer. They're probably not the best choice for the "out of sight-out of mind" crewmembers. It forces one to at least admit to themselves that we are in fact animals


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

2Gringos said:


> What I'm finding in these threads is that almost 100% of the negative comments about composting toilets are from people with absolutely no experience with them at all. Whereas almost all of the positive comments are from people who actually have used them and know what they're talking about........


Why do composters eventually make this baseless accusation? I have experience with them, does that make my points valid now??

There simply are negative issues with composters. Just like there are pros and cons to any marine head choice. I haven't read any negative above that isn't worth considering. What's the problem with that?


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Why do composters eventually make this baseless accusation? I have experience with them, does that make my points valid now??
> 
> There simply are negative issues with composters. Just like there are pros and cons to any marine head choice. I haven't read any negative above that isn't worth considering. What's the problem with that?


I agree there are negatives with composters as there are negatives with the holding tank system. A few owners of composters have gone back to the holding tank system but the majority sing their praises. Have you owned and managed a composter on your boat or just used one a few times? We owned a traditional holding tank system for over 15 years and have had composters for 8+ years? Therefore I think we have the experience to compare the two. Nothing against the holding tank system just not our cup of tea.

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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smj said:


> I agree there are negatives with composters as there are negatives with the holding tank system. A few owners of composters have gone back to the holding tank system but the majority sing their praises. Have you owned and managed a composter on your boat or just used one a few times? We owned a traditional holding tank system for over 15 years and have had composters for 8+ years? Therefore I think we have the experience to compare the two. Nothing against the holding tank system just not our cup of tea.


No, I've never installed one on my boat, but I have used them. I've never had malaria either, but I can tell you quite a bit about it's downsides, or does one have to have contracted the disease to know?

I don't object to composters, but there is no amount of experience that is going to make me want to explain to a guest were they do #1 and #2, or to carry a pee bottle to shore. Composters do have advantages too.

I only object to the silly eventual argument that one has to have one on their boat to have a valid opinion. Composter users often get defensive for some odd reason.


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Why do composters eventually make this baseless accusation? I have experience with them, does that make my points valid now??


No, it doesn't necessarily. not without more clarification. Did you poop in a bucket when you were 12? Did you install a modern CT in a boat? Big difference. If you haven't maintained one for some period of time, you quite frankly don't know what you're talking about answering questions on that subject.

Why are you posting YOUR "baseless accusations" on a thread asking about composting head experiences? Did you read the original question here? Op asked for information about installing composting heads. Does that describe YOUR expertise in this? How many have you installed? Or how many have you helped install?

you popped in right off the bat talking about disposing the contents and how that's no different from pumping overboard, and go on and on in that vein. We are all aware that you don't like them. Okay. You made that point on page 2. We're now on page 12 of this thread and you're still trying to convince someone that you're somewhat of an expert on these matters because you say you have some experience. Uh...yeah. Okay. How many times did you empty one? You , yourself?

What are you offering here other than repeating your own negative opinions about something in which you have absolutely no credibility?

Just saying.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

It's a discussion, gringos. Get used to it. You don't get to police the input. Just more defensiveness, I still don't get it.


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> I still don't get it.


On that, we're in agreement.


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## alctel (Jan 25, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> Why do composters eventually make this baseless accusation? I have experience with them, does that make my points valid now??
> 
> There simply are negative issues with composters. Just like there are pros and cons to any marine head choice. I haven't read any negative above that isn't worth considering. What's the problem with that?


It's because a lot of people have used a porta-potty or something similar, and then post a lot of stuff about how they smell, or rotting poop, or stuff to that effect. Not meaning you, but there are always a few.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

alctel said:


> It's because a lot of people have used a porta-potty or something similar, and then post a lot of stuff about how they smell, or rotting poop, or stuff to that effect. Not meaning you, but there are always a few.


I'm not going to go back through this entire thread, but I don't recall any that did this.

It seems they are just sensitive to hearing any of the agreed upon cons. Some don't want to carry their pee ashore in gallon jugs. That doesn't mean composters are being criticized for doing so. It also doesn't mean those that don't have one aboard can't process whether they would like to do that.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

What I don't understand is why folks are giving Minnie guff. 
Reality is one size doesn't fit all. No one has said they are a bad idea. Rather even those who haven't chosen this route endorse their use for some including Minnie. But they make no sense for many cruisers.
As stated if you do long passages where the length of passage will require they be serviced they make no sense.
If you berth where pump out boats are available they make no sense.
If you are a periodic high utilizer they are less than ideal.
If you have non sailors on your boat who are not in touch with their inner being things maybe problematic.
If you have sufficient holding tank capacity and are routinely past the 3 mile limit they make no sense.

Gary mentioned incinerating devices. Scary things on a cruising sail boat. But also looked at the thermopure 2. Can see that as a reasonable option for some.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

outbound said:


> What I don't understand is why folks are giving Minnie guff.
> 
> Reality is one size doesn't fit all. No one has said they are a bad idea. Rather even those who haven't chosen this route endorse their use for some including Minnie. But they make no sense for many cruisers.
> 
> ...


You make some good points where the standard holding tank setup may make more sense for some but not all. 
Lack of odor
Far less parts to break or maintain
2 less thru hulls below the waterline
No worries about ever needing a pump out boat
These are 4 attributes of the composter that always make sense.

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## goat (Feb 23, 2014)

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems to me that "As stated if you do long passages where the length of passage will require they be serviced they make no sense." means dumping a couple buckets over the side, that's not so bad, and unless you have gravity drainage from your holding tank, servicing the pump-out pump off shore may be more of a problem. Also I didn't see any mention of the flush liquids (fresh water/ sea water) in a conventional head taking up volume in the holding tank.

Anyway, I'm still happy with my head/holding tank set up and I spend most of my sailing time more than 3 miles off shore so the Y valve is diverted straight out anyway. If it comes time to completely rebuild my head I, at the very least, won't rule out a desiccating head.

Not sold on Port-a-boats though. 

goat


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Goat- am sure you have had passages where it was bumpy the whole d-mn time. Even dumping kitchen/cooking stuff over the side took two. One to hand it up out the companionway to another to grab it in the cockpit. One to dump over the side with harness on another to grab him from behind and steady him.
Smj- you make sense but would note if you use salt offshore and fresh inshore there's no smell nor issues with water usage. If you have a good msd and hoses and clamps maintenance is trivial. Still think many problems relate to people sticking vinegar, oil or other chemicals in the system. Only additives we use are adding bacteria (go to any RV site) after freezing weather or recommissioning the boat if left on the hard for awhile or salt was used for a time.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

outbound said:


> Goat- am sure you have had passages where it was bumpy the whole d-mn time. Even dumping kitchen/cooking stuff over the side took two. One to hand it up out the companionway to another to grab it in the cockpit. One to dump over the side with harness on another to grab him from behind and steady him.


I agree with your sentiment OB. A composter is definitely not for everyone and every situation. I've listed what I think are the prose and cons many, many times. My opinion, after living with both, is that a CT is the best option for a cruising couple on a smallish boat, but that doesn't mean there aren't real cons.

However, I do have to quibble with your long bumpy passage thing in this way: a CT doesn't hit a hard stop. It's a slow build, so it would be pretty easy to manage one on a long passage. I get around five weeks of usage before having to dump, but it can stretch to six or seven if need be. It can also be dumped anytime earlier. There are no typical cruiser passages that take that long, so it's hard to get into a situation where you'd be forced to dump the main tank over the side in bumpy seas.

And if it's truly too bumpy to dump the urine tank over the side, simply dump it down the sink drain.

There. Problems solved :cut_out_animated_em


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Like the sink idea. Duh, didn't think of that. My bad.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

6 aboard is common for us. We have 8 aboard for the weekend about three or four times per year. Our max was 4 adults and 8 teenagers overnight (my daughter's sweet 16 birthday party), several years ago.

Sounds like a composter would be overwhelmed, despite my objection to explaining to a bunch of 16 year old girls how to poo and pee properly. Could you imagine them staying in the room for me to finish what I was saying? 😊 You don't have to. My daughter would have never had the party aboard.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> 6 aboard is common for us. We have 8 aboard for the weekend about three or four times per year. Our max was 4 adults and 8 teenagers overnight (my daughter's sweet 16 birthday party), several years ago.
> 
> Sounds like a composter would be overwhelmed, despite my objection to explaining to a bunch of 16 year old girls how to poo and pee properly. Could you imagine them staying in the room for me to finish what I was saying?  You don't have to. My daughter would have never had the party aboard.


Sounds like you probably needed to call a pumpout boat half way through the sweet 16 party!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)




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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smj said:


> Sounds like you probably needed to call a pumpout boat half way through the sweet 16 party!


77 gallon, central holding tank, beneath the floor, near the keel, for all heads. Had a custom rebuild done a couple of years ago in poly.

Worked like a charm.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Below are comments and observations from another boat forum...

"Okay, the good, the bad and the ugly....

The Good:
We really like our new composting toilet and would not hesitate to do it over again. We have the Nature's Head CT. As far as we know there are two manufacturers, Natures Head and Air Head. The Air Head (AH) unit is a bit smaller and may afford a composting toilet in a smaller space. We had more room and liked a couple of things about the Natures Head (NH) better so went that way. We're happy. The NH is opaque for one and looks more like a Corian counter top and less like white plastic in appearance. The guy we have dealt with at NH is fantastic to deal with and has helped us when we had questions. He even sent us an additional fan assembly at no charge because we have a long vent run. The AH has a regular round boat style toilet seat and cover with rubber seals between all the parts that are supposed to keep it sealed up. The NH just has a cover that fits tight to the molded-in integral seat and seemed like one less problem area. We liked the shape of the NH seat and it seems a bit bigger to sit on than AH. I can't stand the tiny toilet seats on boats and am glad to be rid of that tiny thing. The AH has a "sight glass" plastic tube that shows you how much pee is in the tank and we didn't like that.

Installation was very straight forward. Rip out your old holding tank, toilet to tank hose, pump out hose, vent line, macerator, and toilet. Take in a deep breath of better smelling air as it is quite noticeable immediately. The new unit simply bolts to the floor after some careful measuring to make sure the lid and handles all operate. Then we used the location of our old pump out as the new vent location and installed a vent directly over the old pump out fitting. The new vent hose connects right to the pump out fitting and to the new toilet (figure out how to route this individually). A lot of people vent right through the head cabin top, we couldn't do that. But you want to try to keep the vent hose short if possible. Ours is 15 feet long. The last thing is a tiny vent fan that is installed on the toilet needs to have power to it. Connect in somewhere and route it to the toilet. I electrical taped this power wire to the vent hose and it just plugs in near the vent hose. I think it took me 2 hours to install.

For weekend and vacation use it should be good for a couple for all summer. For live-aboards it should be good for 4-6 weeks before needing to change the compost. The compost is Coco Coir, shredded coconut husks and you can buy it at the pet store for $3 a brick which could be all summer's cost. May find it in gardening stores also, just don't get any with chemicals in it. In a live-aboard situation, just dump the old into a garbage bag and put it in a dumpster somewhere. It could be spread in the forest, but not on a vegetable garden. The preparation of the compost is to get a 2 gallon ZipLock bag and put a brick of coco coir in there along with 6 cups of water and let it sit overnight. It will swell up and be just right to put in the head. It should be just barely damp, but not wet at all or too dry. Dump it in the head and it's in business.

The Bad:
I won't say that there is no smell. Mostly though because I'm the one that dumps the pee tank, and that's the only time I ever smell it. It fills up in 2.5-3 days for the two of us and will need to be jettisoned. "At Sea" we feel it simply goes overboard. One could row it ashore while at anchor and dump in the bushes which we may decide to tell the Coast Guard if they ask.... At the marina we deliver it to the shore head. It takes about 2 minutes to do. We did buy 2 pee tanks so have the option of packing it to facilities and still having a functioning head. The smell however is completely unnoticeable when the head is just sitting on your boat doing nothing. We feel like we could have a party in the boat head without being grossed out by any smell. At all. We only notice boat head smell on other people's boats now. Actually, we figured out in the marina that we could smell other people's boat heads. Just trying to convey the level of smell as zero except when changing the tanks.
We do put all toilet paper in a separate waste bin in the head and not into the composting tank. Surprisingly this does not smell either even though we don't have a cover on it at all. Maybe it dries out? Upon changing the compost, we were surprised to find that it really didn't smell. If anything it just smells like wet earth. It does have a smell, but not a toilet smell. When we do empty the compost tank, it is not a terrible job. Really you can't see anything in there at all, it just looks like dirt, and leaves you wondering about all the stuff you put in there and where it went.

The Ugly:
Ok, the reason you want to keep it sealed up at all times (very important) is that you don't want a colony of bugs getting in there as they will find it a perfect place to lay their eggs and reproduce. They don't live in there, but believe me, they do want in there. Along about mid summer, we picked up a gnat problem. We killed the bugs and they'd come back. We killed them again and back again. And again. Except there seemed like there were more bugs each time. Marge finally figured out they had their eggs in the compost so we took a different approach. We emptied the compost, gave it a good clean and started over with new compost. That took care of the bug issue. We did some research into when/who was getting bugs in their composting heads and what to do about it. The consensus was to get an organic kitchen type bug spray and give it a shot down the hole once in a while. We did this and had no more bug issues.

One thing we learned was to keep extra compost medium on the boat. If the compost gets too wet (tummy issues), just add a bit of dry compost to it and spin the handle to dry the tank out a little. Too wet is not good.

All the rest:
We didn't notice any issues with cool temperatures having any effect on the head. Arctic cruisers might have other experiences. Space requirements are on an individual basis per boat. We found that we had more space available after installation because we don't have a giant pump handle and assembly off to the side of the toilet. We have better access to our engine now than we did before. And if I really needed to get into the engine access panel beside my head, I could move the entire head to the dock for an afternoon while I worked on the engine and have it back in place in about 2 minutes. As far heeling issues while underway. We didn't have any problems. First, everybody sits to go, no matter what. The liquids get directed forward and into the collection holes that go to the pee tank. If you need to poop, flip the handle on the trap door and let the goodies go! (Hey, you asked!) Close up the trap door when you're done, give the handle a few spins and walk away. Okay, probably wash your hands and then walk away. We can tell on the pee tank when it's about 4/5 full and so we have a couple more goes if we need to before emptying it.

As a benefit, you can re-purpose all the space that once was taken up by your holding tank. We used our new space to put our new 4 battery bank in.

It's an odd topic to talk about, but it really works well in practice. We felt like we needed to deal with it somehow and are really glad we did this. If you have any more questions, just let me know. Maybe I'll turn this into a blog post with pictures. It is something that lots of people are curious about."


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