# spinnaker packing



## mrkeith

hi, sorry in advance for the dumb question, but can someone tell me or refer me to a link which can explain, following a douse, how to quickly pack a spinnaker so its ready to go up and not get all tangled up. we seem to be having problems w/ this so i ve come seeking advise! 
thank you


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## sailingdog

I'm assuming that you're talking about a symmetrical spinnaker, which is different than an asym. 

1) Gather up the foot of the sail (usually the edge with the white border) until you reach the two clews. 

2) Stuff the foot into the bag, leaving the two clews outside the bag. 

3) Gather up the two leeches (they usually have different colored borders) and stuff them into the bag along with the middle of the sail. Be careful not to let the two leeches cross each other or the sail will come out twisted. 

4) When you reach the head of the sail cover the bag with the lid, leaving all three corners of the sail outside. This allows you to attach the sheets and halyard to the sail without removing it from its bag. 

The two clews can be easily identified from the color of the tapes on them, as can the head of the spinnaker, since only it will have the two colored tapes. BTW, I usually use a piece of small stuff to tie the three corners together if the chute is going to be stored for a while. Helps prevent the chute from getting tangled up when you move the bag around.

To raise the chute... attach the sheets and guys to the two clews, and then attach the halyard to the head... start pulling the sheet that is going around the forestay out, and then hoist it... It should deploy quite nicely, if you've done this right.


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## mrkeith

assymetrics are packed differently?


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## Giulietta

mrkeith said:


> hi, sorry in advance for the dumb question, but can someone tell me or refer me to a link which can explain, following a douse, how to quickly pack a spinnaker so its ready to go up and not get all tangled up. we seem to be having problems w/ this so i ve come seeking advise!
> thank you


(My English might not work because I don't know the names of the ends of the spinnaker)

Lets see&#8230;

You can have several possibilities, depending on how and what you want to do.

One is leave it on deck, (after you hoisted it first time) against the life lines, tied with elastic ropes. This is if you are using it often, such as in match race or such. You will need to leave it ready to launch, by keeping the sheets clear and towards the rear and the halyard end forward, so you can hoist it later, depending on your tack. As its coming down, you bring the 2 sheets together in the rear, on the side you're keeping it tied. Pull down the spi holding it under your arms and between you and the life lines as you lower it, (do it fast) the halyard will come down and keep it forward.

If you have a bag pull the spi down by its middle and push it inside the bag, keeping the halyard end and sheet ends outside.

Other is having someone inside the boat, in the forward compartment, and as you bring the spi down, you pull from the middle of the spi, so that the halyard end and the sheet ends stay out of the hatch (the hatch for this must have nothing you might catch the spi.

Another solution is a ATN sock that you hoist and is really fool proof.

Also a good thing is write with marker wich end is which.

I have one side of my spinanakers with green edge for Stbd, and red edge for port..on all of them.. and names of what goes where, to help the forward idiots getting it right.


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## Giulietta

mrkeith said:


> assymetrics are packed differently?


Who told you that??

No...assymetrics are the same, however some are on a furllers such as I have, (but I don't use mine for the spi I use it for the cruising genoa), a code zero furler, and some are just fixed at the end of a bow pole or the bow fixing point. Some are fixed straight some use a rope. depends.

The principle is the same. If you have the end of your assymetric on a pole you will have a cable that pulls the spi down or up as you might need, you need to release this when bringing the spy down...the difference is that end stays towards the bow with the halyard end, but underneath it. Not to the back like the symetrical.

The rest is the same. Man its hard to explain without the names...


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## sailingdog

mrkeith said:


> assymetrics are packed differently?


 No, they're not necessarily packed differently, but hoisting one and dousing one is generally done slightly differently, since they are generally flown with the tack attached to a tack hook, like a jib is rigged, rather than with sheets and guys on both ends of the foot.

Things to watch for:

1) Make sure the head is attached to the halyard...not one of the clews... 
2) Make sure the halyard leads fair and isn't wrapped around the forestay. 
3) Make sure the sheets and guys for the side opposite where you've set the spinnaker bag up go around the outside of any stays and shrouds.

Spinnaker socks and dousing covers make packing, launching and dousing the spinnaker much simpler... and are generally worth getting if you're going to be using one a lot.


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## CharlieCobra

Giulietta, don't let the Bow hear ya call them an idiot, this coming from a bowman. When was the last time YOU did bow in a race? Just drive the damned boat!


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## Giulietta

My last bow was in 1989 in a Star...and the "idiot" thing was a joke...because my bows read this, too!!! Long story...

Not to offend any one in particular...sorry....I was joking.

Where do you bow??


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## Faster

mrkeith said:


> hi, sorry in advance for the dumb question, but can someone tell me or refer me to a link which can explain, following a douse, how to quickly pack a spinnaker so its ready to go up and not get all tangled up. we seem to be having problems w/ this so i ve come seeking advise!
> thank you


What kind of boat are you on? If it is a smallish fractional racer, (eg, T bird, Kirby 25 etc) the following really works well.

Hoist and douse the chute from and into a bag hung in the companionway. Leave the sheets and halyard attached at all times. Douse the sail under the boom into the bag, just grab the sheet, blow the guy, gather the foot and stuff it in the bag as the halyard is eased. When you need it again, it will come out of the bag cleanly each time, (no "repacking" required!) hoisting out under the boom as you pull on the guy.

This calls for some pre planning, especially if you are not comfortable with windward takedowns or sets, so that everything is on the correct side for your next rounding/hoist.

This can require longer sheets, as the guy has to go all the way back to the companionway, and some velcro straps to trap the sail in the bag so it doesn't pop out at inconvenient times (from wind drag on the halyard, for example.

Also watch for hangups on the shrouds, and that the hoisting sail doesn't get trapped between the main and the spreaders if the mainsail is already eased.

The method does not work so well with large overlapping genoas, with larger spinnakers, or on masthead rigs on boats over say 30 feet.


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## CharlieCobra

I last did bow on a Catalina 38 locally. We flew this 54' spin that made for a wild ride downwind in that old IOR hull. The last time I was on that boat, I was driving downwind in 20 knots with that chute up at 8.8 knots. Talk about a wild squirrely ride! I did manage to keep it from death rolling until the bridle broke. The owner pulled the boat from the series shortly thereafter. I do remember one race where we had a scratch crew in 15 knots where the trimmer pulled the chute around to starboard by mistake. So here we are, pounding along DW on a Port tack looking at the chute which is about abeam of the mast with the driver hollering "whoa Whoa WHOA!" I turned around and yelled "Whoa what? Just drive the damned boat!" He went down, we eased the sheet and got back under the spin with no drama. Jeesh, drivers....


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## sailingdog

One major difference between an Asym and an sym spinnaker is how they gybe. The symetrical spinnaker pivots around the forestay of the boat, and what was the clew becomes the tack and vice-versa. The Asym will often gybe like a jib, but go outside of the forestay.


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## CharlieCobra

Ok, never having flown an Asym, do ya run a lazy guy and the sheet on the same tack so when ya gybe, the lazy guy becomes the sheet? If so, how do ya route the guy past the forestay?


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## sailingdog

No, you just have two sheets attached to the tack, like a jib... No guys involved... at least at the tack... and I prefer gals for crew...


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## Giulietta

CharlieCobra said:


> I last did bow on a Catalina 38 locally. We flew this 54' spin that made for a wild ride downwind in that old IOR hull. The last time I was on that boat, I was driving downwind in 20 knots with that chute up at 8.8 knots. Talk about a wild squirrely ride! I did manage to keep it from death rolling until the bridle broke. The owner pulled the boat from the series shortly thereafter. I do remember one race where we had a scratch crew in 15 knots where the trimmer pulled the chute around to starboard by mistake. So here we are, pounding along DW on a Port tack looking at the chute which is about abeam of the mast with the driver hollering "whoa Whoa WHOA!" I turned around and yelled "Whoa what? Just drive the damned boat!" He went down, we eased the sheet and got back under the spin with no drama. Jeesh, drivers....


eheheheh that was cool...we call a Broach in Portuguese "Chinesa"...means Chinese...mainly because of the things we say when it happens...

Thus the "idiot".

I forgot I was forward (stay) man on a 49er last Summer...still have pain from that..getting old(er)....

By the way...I have a fun story for you...a few months ago, me and the "idiot" decided to go back in time and sail a 470. We borrowed one from CNL (where my son Fred sails Opti in Lisbon). We looked funny in wet suits and the 470 kids were all laughing at the "old farts"..as we rigged the boat (that part I rememberd very well over 20 years I didn't sail one).

Anyway...we went ot the water, me "driving" as you say...the idiot at the stay and trapeze.

We left the ramp and immediately hoisted the spi (the young kids were amazed...as they see me as Fred'd Dad...you know kids...adults know ****)...anyway we ended up doing some races with the kids...off course did not win, but wasn't tottaly embarrassing...until...

One particular time, my friend decides to get smart on the trapeze, all confident and starts lowering to touch the water like we did when we were 16..... and his foot slides...he hits the side of the boat so hard I started laughing and lost all my force laughing....the boat broached, so funny...he was completely under water, with his feet trying to stay on the boat, I laughed and released the main...and we sailed like that until I could regain my strenght and help him hoist up the trapeze....we sailed with this side anchor for almost 2 minutes....I just couldn't stop laughing at him...with is head trying to stay over....

Luckily the kids were away....that was a good day of remebering things we did when we were young...

Time flies....


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## Giulietta

CharlieCobra said:


> Ok, never having flown an Asym, do ya run a lazy guy and the sheet on the same tack so when ya gybe, the lazy guy becomes the sheet? If so, how do ya route the guy past the forestay?


Here is a photo of an Assymetric I had in previous boat. It shows the sheets.

The red sheet is setup like a genoa sheet, the blue one goes forward of the genoa AND forward of the end of the sail that is attached to the bow.

You gybe and the sail passes all the way around the front of the boat, like a flag. This is used on Assys that are attached too near the genoa.

My present boat, the assy is on a pole in front, and you can gybe like above or...if the assy allows you can pass the "not in service" sheet between the genoa and the end of the sail attached to the pole.

This allows for very fast gybes, but crew needs to be in front to help the assy pass between it self and the genoa.










Is it clearly explained??


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## sailingdog

LOL... at first it looked like the red sheet was attached to the boom.


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## Giulietta

Here is drwaing of both options


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## Giulietta

sailingdog said:


> LOL... at first it looked like the red sheet was attached to the boom.


Yes its a new method I invented called the Boom Spi control....

On the other side it makes cofee!!!!  

I'm stupid..but not THAT stupid!!!


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## sailingdog

Giulietta said:


> Yes its a new method I invented called the Boom Spi control....
> 
> On the other side it makes cofee!!!!
> 
> I'm stupid..but not THAT stupid!!!


hard to tell some days...


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## Giulietta

That was a Spinnaker I made specially to sail with Fred....he was smaller then...see why it was made for him???? He used to love it...and it became known over in Portugal as the Mickey boat.... Fred really was proud of it and used to ask me to hoist it even before we left the marina...

The things we do for our kids...


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## sailingdog

Very cool...


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## CharlieCobra

Nice, yeah, the way you have it set up with the two sheets is what I had in mind. Thanks for the drawing with the sprit, clears the fog somewhat.


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## Giulietta

sailingdog said:


> hard to tell some days...


Listen...I have to say serious things and reply seriously here every now and then...otherwise people will think I am really crazy!!!

When Its something I know....when its crap questions....out come the fat ladies photos!!!


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## sailingdog

What fat lady photos??? And we already know you're crazy.


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## goose327

Excellent stuff guys, thanks. I haven't even deployed the Forsail yet, but now I have an idea of how to fly the spin. 
Giu, in the drawing on the right, is the foot(not sure thats the right word)attached directly to the sprit? So, I don't NEED a spin pole, just one point at the sprit, the other "foot" to the sheet, and the top corner to the halyard?


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## sailingfool

*Gybing an Asym*



sailingdog said:


> One major difference between an Asym and an sym spinnaker is how they gybe. ...The Asym will often gybe like a jib, but go outside of the forestay.


An asym can gybe exactly like a jib, inside of the forestay, unless it is flown from a sprit that positions it's tack forward of the forestay. Giu's explation is relevant to an asym flown from a sprit. Unfortuantely boats with sprits are not yet common, I'd bet not 1 out of 30 Sailnet boat owners have a boat with an asym sprit (Giu's extreme sailing machine is only a wet dream for most of us!)...so that explanation is largely academic for the readers.


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## Giulietta

goose327 said:


> Excellent stuff guys, thanks. I haven't even deployed the Forsail yet, but now I have an idea of how to fly the spin.
> Giu, in the drawing on the right, is the foot(not sure thats the right word)attached directly to the sprit? So, I don't NEED a spin pole, just one point at the sprit, the other "foot" to the sheet, and the top corner to the halyard?


ZZ I have a block at the end of the sprit pole (with the assy you dont use the spi pole, ok?).

I run a rope along the sprit into that block and up to the clew of the sail. By releasing this cabble I can lower or raise the assy spin, depending on how I want it. This allows better sail trim. (It does the same function we can have with the sym spin by lowering or raising the spy pole to shape the spi).

If you don't have the block, you just attach the clew to the end of the sprit or to a ring ion your bow.

Personnaly the ability to raise the sail is better, and you can have it with or without sprit. Some friends of mine use their assy on the bow and still have the rope to raise and lower. In this case you need a squick release shackle (right word??) to let go the sail to douse.

Yest the top goes to the halyard, the other clew has 2 sheets (one to each side of the boat) and woks as a genoa.

I am making a Giul type ****ty drawing so come back later.

G


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## Giulietta

Here is another drawing that shows how it should be set up if you have a sprit or not.

Either case can have the rope to raise or lower the bottom of spi (not confuse with hoisting with halyard). If you install with the raiser a regular shackle will do, if you don't have the raiser,, you need one of those shackles you pull a thing and it opens (help with names, guys please), so you release the bow end to lower the sail. OK??

If you have a sprit the dead sheet flies between stay and spi, if you don't then the sheet flies in front of stay AND where spi attaches to bow.

If you have questions ask, ok??
Either way, you can experiment wich you like most...


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## goose327

Perfect, thanks my friend.
I have a SS mount(with a hole) on the end on the sprit, that must be what it's for. Glad you mentioned the second sheet, I would have had a helluva time tacking. Of course all this info will have to wait until AFTER I learn how to run the 3rd sail,,LOL. 
Forcast is mid to high 70s for the next week, hopefully I can get out and get some practice in.


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## sailingdog

sailingfool said:


> An asym can gybe exactly like a jib, inside of the forestay, unless it is flown from a sprit that positions it's tack forward of the forestay. Giu's explation is relevant to an asym flown from a sprit. Unfortuantely boats with sprits are not yet common, I'd bet not 1 out of 30 Sailnet boat owners have a boat with an asym sprit (Giu's extreme sailing machine is only a wet dream for most of us!)...so that explanation is largely academic for the readers.


I have a retractable sprit on my boat for my asym... so I'm used to gybing it forward of the headstay... which is probably why I wrote it like that... I forget that most boats don't have a sprit.


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## Giulietta

Wait a minute...only saw that now...SF, SD...

How can you gybe inside the forestay???

The Spi halyard is allways above the Genoa halyard...how do you do that???

I never saw an assymetric work insude the stay. Are you twisting the halyard up high? Or you have a spi halyard under the genoa halyard??

Weird....
Are you refering to a Genneaker??? on a furler??


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## goose327

I'm one of the few lucky ones I guess. I have a big ol' chunk of teak hanging off the bow.


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## sailingdog

Giulietta said:


> Wait a minute...only saw that now...SF, SD...
> 
> How can you gybe inside the forestay???
> 
> The Spi halyard is allways above the Genoa halyard...how do you do that???
> 
> I never saw an assymetric work insude the stay. Are you twisting the halyard up high? Or you have a spi halyard under the genoa halyard??
> 
> Weird....
> Are you refering to a Genneaker??? on a furler??


I can't gybe inside the forestay... since my asym is mounted on a sprit. I guess you could do it, if you were using something like a ATN Tacker for the tack of the asym... but you'd chafe the hell out of the halyard is my guess.


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## Giulietta

I can't either and couldn't on all my previous boats as the spi was allways in front of the genoa. Never saw one working behind the genoa.

My question was more directed at SF. Or maybe I misunderstood something.

Also I am assuming we're using "normal" procedures...not the "cheater" pole.


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## tdw

Giulietta said:


> Who told you that??
> 
> No...assymetrics are the same, however some are on a furllers such as I have, (but I don't use mine for the spi I use it for the cruising genoa), a code zero furler, and some are just fixed at the end of a bow pole or the bow fixing point. Some are fixed straight some use a rope. depends.
> 
> The principle is the same. If you have the end of your assymetric on a pole you will have a cable that pulls the spi down or up as you might need, you need to release this when bringing the spy down...the difference is that end stays towards the bow with the halyard end, but underneath it. Not to the back like the symetrical.
> 
> The rest is the same. Man its hard to explain without the names...


Bluebottle,
In cruising mode you have your assy on a furler ? Does that mean you have twin furlers or is your headsail hanked ?

A confession from me, because I have always previously sailed single handed although now with crew who is very new to this sailing business I have very rarely set a spinnaker and as yet never used the assy. I need to get the thing socked to make handling easier.

Question...On a boat with a furled headsail and no sprit how do you gybe the assy ?

Question....With an assy do you broad reach down wind gybing when necessary or do you pole it out when running ?


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## Giulietta

tdw said:


> Bluebottle,
> In cruising mode you have your assy on a furler ? Does that mean you have twin furlers or is your headsail hanked ?
> 
> UpSideDown, I don't have the spi on the furler, I have the cruising genoa there only. The cruising sail comes off and the racing battened genoa goes in its track but does not furl (battens). The furler I installed is a code zero type furler, that has no drum, and the furler line does not wind in the drum, its a continuous loop. This allows me to have a larger genoa, whose foot is near the deck, instead of higher as it is with a normal drum type furler. (initially I was going to have the furler bellow the deck, but decided not to, because the sail would be smaller, and I could not have the bowsprit arrangment I have.
> 
> Those types of furlers are used with the Volvo racers and some modern sailboats, such as the Shipmane, the Wally, etc. as they have a sail, called a Gennaker that rolls in those furlers, mainly its like a big baggy genoa made of spi cloth. That is what I meant. My spis all work the standard way. In front of the genoa.
> 
> A confession from me, because I have always previously sailed single handed although now with crew who is very new to this sailing business I have very rarely set a spinnaker and as yet never used the assy. I need to get the thing socked to make handling easier.
> 
> You can get the spi out alone, I do it, not all conditions but still do it. Of course if conditions are rough I don't do it...it helps having an extra light spi pole, and the rope system all designed for that. Alone I raise the spi behind the main, to help whle it is still not filled.
> 
> I had an ATN sock (I bought thru old Sailnet in 2002) on my Assy on my previous boat, because the spi system on that boat was not ideal, and going solo the ATN helped a lot, specially with the kids on board, however, kept jamming, and I never liked the rolled thing up high when it was sailing.
> 
> The assymetric, yes, Its out mostly when I'm alone, solo or not. You need to get used to using it. Try going out in low winds, without main (use the engine to simulate the speed of the non hoisted main), and practice. One thing you can do is use wool strings that tighten the spi, that as it fills break up ou untie.
> 
> Question...On a boat with a furled headsail and no sprit how do you gybe the assy ?
> 
> My boat allows the two arrangments (my old had no sprit).
> 
> If the assy is on the sprit, you actually gybe like you tack with the genoa, but need to pass the assy between the genoa and itself, (thus the guy in the front, because sometimes it wants to roll around the genoa), also need to do it fast. If your system in 4 out of 10 times rolls on the genoa, you need to go to the outside gybe method, a lot slower, but problem free. So with the sprit you can use the dead sheet between the genoa and spi or tottaly in front of the spi.
> 
> If you don't have a sprit, normally the dead sheet passes in front of the genoa and the attachment of the spi to the boa, and you gybe allowing the sail to "rotate" 250º more or less in front of the boat (we call that flag here if I translate, because the spi looks like a flag).
> 
> Altough..in my old boat I have had it working between the stay and spi, if I had crew to help, its faster gybing.
> 
> Question....With an assy do you broad reach down wind gybing when necessary or do you pole it out when running ?
> 
> With the assy you can do broad reach and just gybe as you need, with any of the above methods, and you do not use a pole with assy, the idea is to hava spi that does not require spi. Given you loose some downwind speed, but can't win all. I have a assy spi that is currently being made (I let CD choose the colour!!!!) that will allow better downwind sailing, but nothing beats the symetric downwind, because of its positioning versatility due to the rotating features it has with the pole.
> 
> Also, I don't really want to go dead downwind...I'll get there faster by staying off a little and tack the distance increases, but boat speed is higher and compensates on larger runs, not on short ones, depends on where the others are. But that's on my boat.


Here is a photo of my furler so you see how it works. If you see I have a loop on front where I can attach the pulley for the assy spi to run on the bow, and my anchor roler comes off and a sprit is installed in its place that allows the spi to run on it. Why?? because some types of rating, I get penalized by having a sprit, so it comes off! clever.... If it was retractable, like on some J's and Beneteaus...I would be penalized all the time.



















In the next photo you can see how low the cruising sail works (and the one in this photo is the first one I had, I have a new one that goes even lower, the sheet end almost touches the cabin, and has less foot curvature I like the curvature..makes it sexy.)










The next photo you see the racing genoa, that does not furl, has battens and touches the deck. The foot is designed differentely also to increase efficiency.

These were taken before the furller was installed. The racing genoa was later slightly nodified to give space for the furler.


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## christyleigh

*Another Option.......*



sailingdog said:


> One major difference between an Asym and an sym spinnaker is how they gybe. The symetrical spinnaker pivots around the forestay of the boat, and what was the clew becomes the tack and vice-versa. The Asym will often gybe like a jib, but go outside of the forestay.


Or..... if you only fly the asym only once or twice a year like I did on my Catalina, do it all by yourself, run a few miles running so close to the wind it's acting like a Genoa, go brain dead, forget what you are doing, and TACK - Not Gybe....... bringing the sheet inside the stay and then sail around in circles for 5 minutes trying to figure out what the #%&%^$%% happened         while trying to sort out the mess on the fordeck. I put on a good show for the bay to see


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## Giulietta

christyleigh said:


> Or..... if you only fly the asym only once or twice a year like I did on my Catalina, do it all by yourself, run a few miles running so close to the wind it's acting like a Genoa, go brain dead, forget what you are doing, and TACK - Not Gybe....... bringing the sheet inside the stay and then sail around in circles for 5 minutes trying to figure out what the #%&%^$%% happened         while trying to sort out the mess on the fordeck. I put on a good show for the bay to see


CL....been there...more than I would ever admit!!!  

Sympatize with you!!!


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## sailingdog

christyleigh said:


> Or..... if you only fly the asym only once or twice a year like I did on my Catalina, do it all by yourself, run a few miles running so close to the wind it's acting like a Genoa, go brain dead, forget what you are doing, and TACK - Not Gybe....... bringing the sheet inside the stay and then sail around in circles for 5 minutes trying to figure out what the #%&%^$%% happened         while trying to sort out the mess on the fordeck. I put on a good show for the bay to see


ROFLMAO... been there...done that... fortunately, no witnesses... none alive anyways...


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## tdw

Gui, 
Thanks for that. I should explain that because of the size of Sydney Harbour it can be a couple of hours from mooring to open ocean. Confined spaces are not good for learning how to tame a spinnaker. While we spend a lot of time outside, Ms Wombat is still learning the basics so I've been holding off on the spinnaker.
I know the wool tie trick but figure a sock is probably the go for ease of handling. 
Cheers mate
TD


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## Giulietta

Then get the ATN sock

Selling here

Then you can get Mrs. Wombat to drive..you...me lazy friend..do the work!!


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## tdw

Giulietta said:


> Then get the ATN sock
> 
> Selling here
> 
> Then you can get Mrs. Wombat to drive..you...me lazy friend..do the work!!


Yes sir my G sir. <salutes>

Thanks for that. Referring to the ATN page...wouldn't mind one of those Sundeers.


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