# Wetsuit recommendations



## jballou (Mar 17, 2014)

Hi,

Looking for advice on what kind of wetsuit would we need for snorkeling in the Bahamas during the winter? Not deep diving, just snorkeling and free-diving.

Weight? Length?

Kind of looking for the minimal requirements I guess.

Thanks!

jballou


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

you only need a skin, full length for jellys.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

3mm or less and maybe shortee..carefull around the Lionfish


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## jballou (Mar 17, 2014)

Lots of jellies around that time of year?

I don't remember them being a problem during the summer. 

I guess a skin is good to keep the sun off as well...

Thanks


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The water is cooler in the winter, but quite tolerable with nothing. Nevertheless, a shorty or something with 2mm core and skin sleeves/legs would make one very comfortable. I don't ever recall a jelly issue, but knowing you can glance against a variety of poisonous stuff is empowering.


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

You should base this on temperature, your tolerance to shivering, and how "water tight" the wetsuit is. You're always going to lose body heat, but those who stay warmer generally become less fatigued than those with more exposure. Snorkeling often means that you'll drop your legs when you surface, rather than stay horizontal, which drains warm water out of the suit. When the body has to continuously warm this water can deplete energy over time. Unless the water is in the upper 80s, it's would probably be good to wear something more substantial than a skin, which just protects from abrasions and sunburn. A 3 mm is pretty good for upper 70s to 80s, and then maybe a 5 mm for temps that are lower than 75. One of my coldest dives was in January in the Keys when I wasn't expecting it to be too cold, but even the natives were hunting down every piece of clothing they could find. So you can always open up the zipper and let water flow in; you can't put more on when you're in the water.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Like others have mentioned, how much insulation you need will depend on your own personal comfort zone and energetically you swim.

At a minimum, I'd invest in a skin. They're cheap, and I've found getting into/out of wet suits is easier when you're using the skin as a base layer (maybe it's just me.) On top of that, I'd be surprised if you'd need anything more than a 3mm suit. I'd probably lean towards a shorty with the skin suit.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

gamayun said:


> One of my coldest dives was in January in the Keys when I wasn't expecting it to be too cold, but even the natives were hunting down every piece of clothing they could find. .


Interesting...however doing deco obligations can be a numbing experience in Fla.'s 70 degree caves...  But this is beyound the OP's question..


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

aa3jy said:


> Interesting...however doing deco obligations can be a numbing experience in Fla.'s 70 degree caves...  But this is beyound the OP's question..


It is. Although one of the coldest cave dives I ever had was after an hour and a half in Indian Springs in a 6 mm wetsuit. I learned to dive dry after that


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

gamayun said:


> It is. Although one of the coldest cave dives I ever had was after an hour and a half in Indian Springs in a 6 mm wetsuit. I learned to dive dry after that


With Edd Sorenson?


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

aa3jy said:


> With Edd Sorenson?


Edd's biography sounds impressive, but don't know him and was diving North Florida caves at least 4 years before he learned to scuba dive.

Apologies to the OP for the thread drift


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

gamayun said:


> Edd's biography sounds impressive, but don't know him and was diving North Florida caves at least 4 years before he learned to scuba dive.
> 
> Apologies to the OP for the thread drift


Will be attending the NSS-CDS workshop in May. Edd Sorenson has been credited to saving 4 lives which is extremely rare under the circumstances attributed to diving north Fla's springs. He was also featured on American Heros Channel as a result of these rescues.

FYI I was first introduced to cave diving in Blue Springs, Orange City and Ginnie Springs, High Springs in 1973 but the training and equipment back then is nothing like it is today...

Clay
NSS-CDS
NACD

A little disclaimer concerning cave diving..it's extremely dangerous with out proper equipment and training..


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

jballou said:


> Hi,
> 
> Looking for advice on what kind of wetsuit would we need for snorkeling in the Bahamas during the winter? Not deep diving, just snorkeling and free-diving.
> 
> ...


My experience from warm climes would suggest just a t-shirt to begin with and then if you really get into it a neutrally buoyant wetsuit system otherwise you will have to ponce around with weights all the time because the minimum of neoprene thickness will inhibit your ability to duck dive properly unless you are weighted. Your biggest asset in the first instance would be a swim cap and some gloves.(You can get webbed snorkel gloves now - (true)) The cap really helps as an insulator to one of your main heat loss zones as do the gloves, plus the gloves give you added protection. You will discover very quickly that although the surface temperature may feel like a bath the deeper you go the colder it gets and if you intend to spend a lot of time even at only around 3-5 meters or so you will then have to complicate things by getting some proper thermal protection and maybe some weight.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

paulanthony said:


> My experience from warm climes would suggest just a t-shirt to begin with and then if you really get into it a neutrally buoyant wetsuit system otherwise you will have to ponce around with weights all the time because the minimum of neoprene thickness will inhibit your ability to duck dive properly unless you are weighted. Your biggest asset in the first instance would be a swim cap and some gloves.(You can get webbed snorkel gloves now - (true)) The cap really helps as an insulator to one of your main heat loss zones as do the gloves, plus the gloves give you added protection. You will discover very quickly that although the surface temperature may feel like a bath the deeper you go the colder it gets and if you intend to spend a lot of time even at only around 3-5 meters or so you will then have to complicate things by getting some proper thermal protection and maybe some weight.


A tee shirt will not provide any insulation, whatsoever. You are right that neoprene will add buoyancy and weights could be required, albeit, not much at all. However, with a 2mm core and skin for sleeves/legs, I think most would not require any additional weight.

Webbed gloves sound a bit gimmicky. Your arms should used at most for one sweep at your initial dive. Ones legs should do all the work. People that snorkel like they are doing the breast stroke, look like amateurs.


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

The t-shirt inhibits water flushing(synthetic ones will insulate also) and also stops you getting burnt. The t-shirt is superior to naked skin and will already exist as an item of clothing in your cupboard. For warm climes it maybe all that is needed. I snorkelled and dived this way for years. We did not even use BC's and just squirted a blast of air into our t-shirt when we needed some help because the air gets trapped. The web gloves are not gimmicky. When you are in an upright position below the water they provide a lot of resistance for manoeuvring especially if you have no weight. I have not tried myself but spoke to some one that has and they were quite impressed and seals swear by them apparently  but for sure gloves are not mandatory unless you start touching stuff. With a swim cap and a t-shirt you can keep quite warm and more over it removes the need to worry about positive buoyancy unless you buy one of these expensive negative buoyancy suits. Less is more!


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

paulanthony said:


> My experience from warm climes would suggest just a t-shirt to begin with and then if you really get into it a neutrally buoyant wetsuit system otherwise you will have to ponce around with weights all the time because the minimum of neoprene thickness will inhibit your ability to duck dive properly unless you are weighted. Your biggest asset in the first instance would be a swim cap and some gloves.(You can get webbed snorkel gloves now - (true)) The cap really helps as an insulator to one of your main heat loss zones as do the gloves, plus the gloves give you added protection. You will discover very quickly that although the surface temperature may feel like a bath the deeper you go the colder it gets and if you intend to spend a lot of time even at only around 3-5 meters or so you will then have to complicate things by getting some proper thermal protection and maybe some weight.


Note that in some dive locations wearing gloves while diving is illegal. Cayman Islands and the marine sanctuary off Belize City I know of, and I was told that the fines aren't small.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

It's also a myth that one loses more heat through their head. Look it up. It comes from the idea that one often dresses warmly elsewhere, therefore, loses more heat through their head than where they are insulated. However, surface area is surface area. Just insulating the head, doesn't make up for the rest.

T-shirts are an excellent idea to protect against sunburn. That's all.


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## Subaqua (Jul 14, 2013)

I love to talk wetsuits and snorkeling..I've been snorkeling from near the equator to under the ice! but, I don't have any first hand experience in the Bahamas.  , one day, I will though. Needing or not needing a wetsuit all boils down to four things: body type, time in the water, physical activity, and how you deal with cold. I see this all the time. 
You can't just ask what thickness wetsuit do I need or should I get. There's nothing like experience to get that all figured out.
All I will say, is at least go with a full rash guard/skin. They are cheap, you don't need to lather up with sunscreen, and they'll offer some sting protection if there are little stingys in the water. After that, you have to figure it out.


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

hellsop said:


> Note that in some dive locations wearing gloves while diving is illegal. Cayman Islands and the marine sanctuary off Belize City I know of, and I was told that the fines aren't small.


That's quite interesting about gloves being illegal hellsop. I did not realise that. Makes sense though.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> It's also a myth that one loses more heat through their head. Look it up. It comes from the idea that one often dresses warmly elsewhere, therefore, loses more heat through their head than where they are insulated. However, surface area is surface area. Just insulating the head, doesn't make up for the rest.
> 
> T-shirts are an excellent idea to protect against sunburn. That's all.


Not exactly a "myth", but it probably is a little overstated. Transfer of heat from the head is a little more easily done because of the large network of capillaries and the comparative lack of fat tissue in the scalp to act as a natural insulator. There's a reason scalp lacerations bleed a lot -- it's all those capillaries.

If you don't believe that, take a look at thermal images of people exercising.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

PorFin said:


> Not exactly a "myth", but it probably is a little overstated......


I guess that depend on what one finds to be overstated. It's believed the myth started from a study done by the US Army in the 50s and their field manuals declared one lost 40-50% of their heat through their head. A field manual I recall seeing in the 80s.

About 10 years ago, several studies took on the challenge and determined that heat loss through the head is only slightly greater in proportion to the relative skin exposure of the head. Perhaps that slight increase is due to the capillary density you refer to.

It's thought the original experiment was flawed because one's extremities (head, face, hands, ears) are more sensitive to detecting temperature change, in order to control the body's reaction.

For me, interestingly, I find that covering my neck in frigid temperatures is the first thing I do to feel warmer. But I don't think it makes me any warmer.


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

Minnewaska said:


> It's also a myth that one loses more heat through their head. Look it up. It comes from the idea that one often dresses warmly elsewhere, therefore, loses more heat through their head than where they are insulated. However, surface area is surface area. Just insulating the head, doesn't make up for the rest.
> 
> T-shirts are an excellent idea to protect against sunburn. That's all.


Not sure what you are reading but when your body gets cold, it constricts blood vessels in your arms and legs. The head and core then become the primary zones for heat loss. Your core as some one has already mentioned has its own defence against heat loss which is fat which then leaves your head as the main open valved heat exchange radiator with no defence yet the need to always maintain 37C. So what happens? The body then increases the heart rate and blood pressure and shuts more stuff down to protect the brain. It is a vicious circle which is why it is important to insulate the head to conserve heat.

A "cotton" T-shirt will keep a small boundary of water close to your skin that is warmed by the body. It is not water that is trapped like a wet suit but it water that is trapped in the fabric and is harder to flush than if just bare skin. The problem with a "cotton" T-shirt is when at the surface laying flat down the water begins to evaporate and rapid heat exchange occurs. It is the exposure of the t-shirt to air which causes the cotton t-shirt to act against you but if the sun is strong then the infrared heat on a large surface area counter balances the evaporated heat loss. Cotton t-shirts are not mandatory you can of course wear a synthetic one as do I and it keeps me quite warm long enough for a snorkelling session even in nippy water.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

paulanthony said:


> Not sure what you are reading......


I'm not going to do the work for you. Google "head heat loss". It's a myth.

Your recollection of your body shunting blood to the core is correct. However, that does not disproportionately cause one to lose more body heat through the head. Let me be clear, I'm not suggesting one should not insulate their head, only that it does not cause you to lose significantly more heat than any other similarly sized exposed area.



> A "cotton" T-shirt will keep a small boundary of water close to your skin that is warmed by the body.....


That is the principal of a wet suit, with limited water exchange. Unfortunately, with a t-shirt that boundary layer will exchange continuously with water at ambient temp. Since water is all below body temp and conducts heat so well, you will lose heat without actual insulation.


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

Incidentally, probably the best home made torso wet suit would be a cotton t-shirt with a synthetic t-shirt over the top. The cotton would act as a sponge and inhibit water flushing and the synthetic overlay would insulate the cotton.. Maybe some one could test the theory.


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm not going to do the work for you. Google "head heat loss". It's a myth.
> 
> Your recollection of your body shunting blood to the core is correct. However, that does not disproportionately cause one to lose more body heat through the head. Let me be clear, I'm not suggesting one should not insulate their head, only that it does not cause you to lose significantly more heat than any other similarly sized exposed area.
> 
> That is the principal of a wet suit, with limited water exchange. Unfortunately, with a t-shirt that boundary layer will exchange continuously with water at ambient temp. Since water is all below body temp and conducts heat so well, you will lose heat without actual insulation.


Reply 1: If your body closes the valves off to your arms and legs so more blood can be used for vital organs what does this tell us? It tells us that you will lose more heat disproportionately through your head because the rest of your body is not radiating heat.

Reply 2: The flush cycle is less than you think it is. I am sure you have exited a pool with a t-shirt and felt it warm to the touch. A wet cotton T-shirt only becomes a fridge when you expose it to air due to evaporation. In open water you will survive longer wearing a T-shirt than bare skin as long as you stay immersed. Considerably longer.


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

Minnewaska. My replies are a bit cack handed. I am getting in a muddle with the reply options. Hope you can make sense of the above.


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

Think I fixed it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Paul, despite your intuition, based on a few facts, this has been studied scientifically. Look it all up. You're not drawing the correct conclusion.


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

Look what up? If you have something new that you have seen then share the link and I will read it Minnewaska.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Goodness sakes, I posted what you should google above. i just did it myself and it provides an entire page of links that refute your conclusions on heat loss through your head. 

I'm sure I can do the same for wet tee shirt as insulation. When cotton becomes wet, there is no more insulation, ie a thermal gap between your body and the water. This is typical achieved by air pockets in some materials, as air conducts heat at 5% the rate of water. No air left in wet cotton.


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

Why should I google it Minnewaska if you are privy to this info about heat loss from the head? Just post the link of what you viewed and then we will be on the same page. It will take me years to find what you are looking at by chance.

Re: The t-shirt I said the t-shirt is holding a boundary layer of water that has been warmed by a body in the cotton weave. Not between body and material. Water against the skin has a different viscosity as that against cotton hence the flush effect with a t-shirt is less. I said nothing about trapping air for warmth.

"When fluids encounter solid boundaries, the fluid in contact with the wall is at rest and the viscous effects thus retard a layer in the vicinity of the wall." A-Z Index

You must have experienced pulling a wet tee shirt away from your body having been swimming and feeling the warmth of the water as it drains out! Well if you did not have that t-shirt on that energy would be lost to the pool.

The t-shirt is much better than nothing whilst you are immersed. It is when you come out of the water that the t-shirt acts like a fridge because of evaporation.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Believe what you want. The evidence is there for others to look at. Cut and paste the google search term "head heat loss" and click any hit. While google customizes a bit, my first hit was from LiveScience, the second from WebMd, then the BBC, then Guardian, etc, etc. All more reputable than a sailing forum, me, you or anyone else.

As for the tee shirt, I completely disagree with your conclusion. The boundary layer of water will simply extract heat from the body more quickly, because that's what water does. That's why your t-shirt is warm when you get out of the water, as you described. It didn't start warm, therefore, heat was removed from your body. Without something that insulates that warm water in your t-shirt from the surrounding water, it will also transmit heat and then draw more from your body. 

No point trying to tell me what I "must have experienced". I was paid to dive in an earlier life.


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

Minnewaska. 

T-shirts: The viscosity slows the water down and provides time for the boundary layer to be heated up by the body. This in turn means that because the boundary layer is warmer than open water the potential difference for heat exchange between body and water at the boundary point is less. Imagine a river flowing past a wall. The water at the wall(boundary) will be flowing slower and will be warmer than the flow of water in the middle of the river. Now imagine naked skin as the wall and a t-shirt as reeds at a river bank. The water at the the boundary of reeds would flow even slower allowing even more time for the water to heat up because the water at the bank is flushing less. I sent you a link to a thermodynamics bible and even found the correct page for you that gives you the formulation of "BOUNDARY LAYER HEAT TRANSFER" How can you argue against it? Its proven physics. 

Heat loss from head: I will try to find your references tomorrow and have a read.


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

Minnewaska said:


> Believe what you want. The evidence is there for others to look at. Cut and paste the google search term "head heat loss" and click any hit. While google customizes a bit, my first hit was from LiveScience, the second from WebMd, then the BBC, then Guardian, etc, etc. All more reputable than a sailing forum, me, you or anyone else.
> 
> As for the tee shirt, I completely disagree with your conclusion. The boundary layer of water will simply extract heat from the body more quickly, because that's what water does. That's why your t-shirt is warm when you get out of the water, as you described. It didn't start warm, therefore, heat was removed from your body. Without something that insulates that warm water in your t-shirt from the surrounding water, it will also transmit heat and then draw more from your body.
> 
> No point trying to tell me what I "must have experienced". I was paid to dive in an earlier life.


I believe I found your references but see no revelation. I don't think anybody believes that under normal conditions the head exchanges more than any other equivalent surface area. What is being said in this thread is that cold water(The body regards cold water as anything less than 35C) will cause vascular constriction which is not possible on the scalp so this will result in a disproportionate heat loss from the head when snorkelling because blood flow has been restricted to other parts of your body.. Here is a link for you that explains it. What Is Peripheral Vasoconstriction? | LoneSwimmer


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

If you look at this person Minnewaska, the body surface has cooled to 17c because the body has become its own insulator. In effect become its own wet suit and that red area at the top is the only place heat can be exchanged from.


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