# We Killed the Pacific Ocean



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

GREG RAY: Ocean story resonates | Newcastle Herald

The ocean is broken


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

casey1999 said:


> GREG RAY: Ocean story resonates | Newcastle Herald
> 
> The ocean is broken


Casey ..... check out the other thread.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Human greed and stupidity knows no limit :/


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

tdw said:


> Casey ..... check out the other thread.


Where is it located?


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## The Ol Man (Jul 13, 2013)

It isn't just the Pacific, it's all the Oceans, Gulfs, Bays, and waterways around the world.
If you want proof just go to your nearest local water, see it for yourself! 
Mankind, in his 'infinite' wisdom has turned almost all the water in the world into a planet wide garbage dump! 
But not to worry, mother nature is bigger than man. She is going to throw it back in our face and just like just as she eradicates species that just don't work in her balance of the nature, man will either evolve or she will eradicate us, buried in our own waste.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Obviously, the sailor had little or no experience with the commercial fishing industry practices. By catch, or what I refer to as bykill, has always been ramped. In the commercial shrimp industry, particular in North Carolina and the Gulf of Mexico, the bykill ratio is about 100 to 1. Yep, for every pound of shimp, there is about 100 pounds of other species that are killed.

Same holds true for long-liners and trawlers, but the ratio is not nearly as high. It's right up there, and there is nothing that is done with the bykill other than it's tossed overboard. I've seen 20-acre rafts of dead fish behind shrimp boats as their catch is sorted on the deck of the shrimp boat in the morning sun after a night of dragging nets. As the bykill is tossed overboard, various species of gamefish, barracuda, shark, jacks, blackfin tuna, and even dolphin can be seen ripping through the floating carnage.






Gary


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

We just need to to learn to love Seagull Scalopine.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I had a similar experience sailing south from Newport twice and north to Charleston from PR in 2010 and 2011.
These are waters I have sailed at least 40 times on deliveries, north and south (US to/from the Caribbean) between 1979 and 1992, catching fish almost daily.
Results;
2010 south; 2 dolphin both under 16 pounds.
2010 north; 1 bluefin tuna 16 pounds.
2011 south; 2 dolphin both under 12 pounds.
Average trip between 1979 and 1992; 6 or 7 dolphin to 35 pounds plus several tuna up to 30 pounds.
This is the same exact fishing line and same exact lures I used for 25 years, hooking fish whenever we put it in the water.
Also interesting to note; very few flying fish, dolphins, other sea life or birds on all three trips, certainly much, much less than before, even in the Gulfstream.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

capta said:


> sailing south from Newport twice and north to Charleston from PR in 2010 and 2011....
> very few flying fish, dolphins, other sea life or birds on all three trips, certainly much, much less than before, even in the Gulfstream.


Thats because they LOVE me! Not you!!!

Last year off Norfolk, Virginia, I saw some of the BEST flocks of the lil grey buggers that I've seen anywhere in the world!!!!

here's a couple of photos of the USA ones 



















These pics are a bit big so take a moment to load... but its worth it because the look HAPPY to me!!!!!!!!!!!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Mark o sea life,
Just because you see a few dolphins off the east coast means nothing. I sail in waters north of Hawaii and have yet to see Japanese floatsum in the water, and I see dolphins and whales at times. That also means nothing. the Pacific as well as all oceans and waterways around the world are being and have been destroyed. Due to population growth and the demand for marine products from a growing and prosperous asian population, the rate of destruction of the oceans and the Pacific in particular has accelerated at a pace not seen before. 

The oceans are being destroyed not only by overfishing and destructive fishing, but also by plastics.


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## seafrontiersman (Mar 2, 2009)

Typical tree hugger propaganda.......

I am at sea over 200 days a year and there are TONS of fish and seabirds. Just because one ageing hippie screams that the sky is falling does not indicate that the oceans are poisoned and we (especially in Western nations) are to blame.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

seafrontiersman said:


> Typical tree hugger propaganda.......
> 
> I am at sea over 200 days a year and there are TONS of fish and seabirds. Just because one ageing hippie screams that the sky is falling does not indicate that the oceans are poisoned and we (especially in Western nations) are to blame.


Thanks for comment. I was starting to get depressed at the state of the oceans. I guess we can continue with our rape and pillage as it is not impacting anything...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

casey1999 said:


> Where is it located?


http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising-liveaboard-forum/104890-ocean-broken-really.html

Similar stuff as here, even the obligatory "tree hugging propaganda" BS. Ah me, don't you just love the neanderthals with their catch phrases. somehow they actually believe that calling someone a tree hugger or a greenie is an insult. Like "liberal" I for one will wear such tags with pride though I'm not sure I have earned them.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Its very troubling and yet nothing will be done since only developed nations care enough to attempt anything which is usually half hearted at best.
also you all missed a huge destructive factor - run off from fertilizers.. huge swaths of waters made devoid of life bc of run off from farm lands.


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## The Ol Man (Jul 13, 2013)

Call me a tree hugger I don't care, I know what I have seen; but in calling me a tree hugger you will now get a tree hugger's rant! 
I have lived longer than most of you reading these posts and probably seen more of this world than most of you have ever dreamed of. I have climbed mountains on six continents, walked in jungles that few white men have even seen, sat in long houses with elders in villages surrounded with palacades with human heads atop of them. I have fought in two wars and know the total stupidity of it. 
I have also seen miles of dead or dying coral reefs, square miles of clear cut jungle leaving of top soil less than an inch deep bare to erosion. I have seen small mountains of trash brought from rich civilized countries to poor 'backward' nations so their people can pick through so maybe they can find enough salvage to buy enough food to do it again the next day. Go thru a few back issues of National Geographic for pictures.
I have been on rivers in this country where there are posted signs warning people not to eat the fish caught in the river because of polution, walked beaches in this country with signs posted warning that the ocean water was unsafe for swiming because of polution. I know of cities that have directly dumped street runoff and even sewer water directly into streams, rivers and bays. You know, "out of sight, out of mind" and its now somebody else's problem. We have allowed factories and farms to allow chemicals and chemical products to runoff into waterways unchecked and unregulated and mostly ignored. That is in this country! Watch the nightly news. 
This country and most of the rest of the civilized, high tech, wealthy nations seem to be of the opinion that the oceans of the world are so big that we can continue to dump all our garbage into them and they will never fill up. 
Well guess what, we ARE killing the oceans, changing the climate, and are well on our way to eliminating human and most of the rest of life on this planet. This isn't empty prophetcy, it's visible, measurable fact. It maybe filler stories in the news but the facts are out there. Scientist have measured and remeasured, checked and verified these facts: Rising average tempatures, rising water tempatures in oceans, changing ocean curents, rising water levels, chemical values of ocean water, chemical values of the air. Sure they are small changes so far but it is like a snowball rolling down a hill, it keeps geting bigger and bigger. 
Not only are we killing the oceans, we are killing the life in the oceans. Not just the overfishing and poor fishing practices but changing the tempature of the ocean causes fish to migrate to different waters that maynot be able to support them. Chemical changes in the water can and does kill the micro life the fish live off of. And to rub salt in the wound, that micro life we are killing is a major supplier of the Oxygen for the earth.
Go down to the fishing docks and ask the commercial fishermen, Have their fishing areas moved, are their catches the same as they were several years ago, are they seeing more fish that aren't normally seen in their catches? 
For the first time in the recorded history of man, surface vessels are making regular trips to the North pole, with paying passengers! And people still are questioning gobal warming?
Major oil spills are occuring because of careless and/or stupid actions, they make the news until something flashier or bloodier comes along, then it passes into oblivion. Ask the people along the Alaska coast if its over, or Texas, or Louisiana, or if you like England. How long will the dead zone be in the Gulf? And fracking off the coast of California, that will be interesting, surfing around toxic gas bubbels in acid water. Radioactive water storage tanks leaking on the coast of Japan, well that's on the other side of the Pacific, not our problem or is it?. 
No, I'm not all doom and gloom, just a realist. A friend of mine, he's dead now, told me that from space its suprisingly scarry to see just how small the earth is, a blue marble in all that black. That's us, on spaceship earth, a goldielocks planet the scientist call us, not too hot, not too cold, just right; and from what the scientist have so far discovered, a rather unique rock in the universe. And we, mankind, seem to be doing our damnedist to burn down our own home. Hey people, we've got nowhere else to go!
Let's wake-up and put out the fire before its too late. 
I DO believe that mankind is smart enough to figure out ways to stop this seemingly mad rush to destory themselves, but we, you call us tree huggers, are lacking the will power of enough people rational enough to see what is happening and join with us and help turn things around. We are not asking you to parade, carry a sign, or even for money. Join us in small ways, Reuse, Renew, Recycle, Report polution, Repair don't throw away, Reduce use, don't waste. All tiny little things done daily and by millions will make a difference. 
Yea, I hug trees, and great grandchildern and I want them to see at least some of what I have seen on this wonderful blue marble.


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

The decline of inland, coastal, and open waters is scientifically quantified. How does someone sailing across the ocean actually "see" the decline? The surface is a minute fraction of that ecosystem. 

The ecology of the ocean is hard to "see," but go to any major metropolitan port and you can "see" the effects of coastal pollution. If you read early American descriptions of the Chesapeake Bay, it is impossibly sad to understand what it has become. Go to any third world port and it is positively a sewer. Sure there are birds and fish still, but do we deny there is a problem unless they're completely gone.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Related locally -

Gulf of Maine Codfish Population -

"in short, *there is currently probably somewhere between about one percent and ten percent of the fish *that were present when John Smith thought this was a good place to set up shop nearly 400 years ago. "

Are the codfish coming back?


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Amazingly enough, most of these problems can be fixed rather quickly if we, as a species, decide it is important enough for us to allocate more money to fighting pollution and over fishing. Sadly, it is not likely to happen because even sailors from developed countries trivialize this very real problem.


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## steve77 (Aug 5, 2010)

It looks as if people are beginning to take the issue of over-fishing seriously. Maybe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/23/business/international/as-eu-subsidies-vote-nears-fishermen-cling-to-way-of-life.html

_Even the Union's executive arm, the European Commission, has acknowledged that the subsidies, worth hundreds of millions of euros each year, support a fleet that is two to three times as large as is ecologically or commercially sustainable.

A vote by the European Parliament, set for Wednesday in Strasbourg, France, could determine whether those subsidies continue to support the big-fleet approach or, instead, help pay for changes meant to steer the European Union's saltwater fishing industry toward a more environmentally sound future._


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

steve77 said:


> It looks as if people are beginning to take the issue of over-fishing seriously. Maybe.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/23/business/international/as-eu-subsidies-vote-nears-fishermen-cling-to-way-of-life.html
> 
> ...


Too little, way too late.


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## steve77 (Aug 5, 2010)

capta said:


> Too little, way too late.


To late for those who have lost their way of life already, but not too late for the oceans. They can recover, given enough time. Assuming we do what we need to do.


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## unimacs (Sep 6, 2013)

krisscross said:


> Amazingly enough, most of these problems can be fixed rather quickly if we, as a species, decide it is important enough for us to allocate more money to fighting pollution and over fishing. Sadly, it is not likely to happen because even sailors from developed countries trivialize this very real problem.


FWIW the number and variety of birds and animals have increased in the area I grew up and the water is cleaner. It is possible to turn this stuff around.

On the other hand I had the misfortune of finding myself swimming through a "garbage patch" on a local lake a few years ago while training for a triathlon. This was after a storm. Obviously this isn't just a third world problem. The city has started to divert storm sewers so that they don't run straight into the lakes and rivers and instead goes into holding ponds.

For several years on Earth Day my family along with hundreds of other volunteers would pick up the garbage around nearby lakes and beaches. You feel good about helping to clean things up but at the same time distressed at how much junk ends up back there in just one years time. When I first moved here I couldn't figure out why the concession stands at the beaches wouldn't give out straws (the restaurants that have taken over do now I think). After picking up what seemed like thousands of them, I know why.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

unimacs said:


> On the other hand I had the misfortune of finding myself swimming through a "garbage patch" on a local lake a few years ago while training for a triathlon. This was after a storm. Obviously this isn't just a third world problem. The city has started to divert storm sewers so that they don't run straight into the lakes and rivers and instead goes into holding ponds.


Stormwater runoff is the #1 problem for all developed countries, which by and large have already addressed the point source discharges by municipal and industrial water users. It can be done with just a bit more money, and it generates many additional side benefits, like improving groundwater recharge rates (stormwater gets a chance to sink into the ground), creating habitat for wildlife and green spaces for people to enjoy, and even impacting the climate (wetlands have the cooling effect in the summer and warming in the winter.
I work in the environmental field and I'm amazed how little it actually costs to improve the environment as compared to let's say military spending. How many lives would we be saving annually if we diverted just 10% of current military spending to improve the quality of our environment here in the States? Probably like 10,000 times more than are killed by the terrorists.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

krisscross said:


> Stormwater runoff is the #1 problem for all developed countries


I bike past of bit of this remediation every day. St. Paul has channeled all the surface runoff from a large industrial and commercial area to artificial marshes surrounding some bike trails. It's good habitat for ducks and rabbits and other small critters. I've seen deer, coyote, raccoons, and even a couple opossums (who did not used to live this far north, but we're getting warmer).

Anyway, the point is that all that nasty surface runoff now gets filtered and processed and recharges aquifers, instead of dumping directly into the Mississippi and eventually contributing to the dead zone in the Gulf.

With a combination of private and public action we can make things better. There was a time in this country when rivers routinely started on fire, we're at least better than that.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Yawn! I counter the BS with science:

Coral more resilient than first thought, Australian scientists find - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...f-global-warming/story-e6frg6nf-1226745594703


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## The Ol Man (Jul 13, 2013)

I thank all of you who took the time to read my rant. I appoligise for loosing my temper over some who call us 'old hippies'- sorry, I am too old to be called a hippie and was busy in SE asia at the time. Yes, things are being done to combat the problem. Little projects, here and there and big projects, all having their effect. But the problem is huge and we need to do more. So thanking you in advance for your support and aid, now lets get back to work.


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yawn! I counter the BS with science:
> 
> Coral more resilient than first thought, Australian scientists find - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
> Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian


Hey, great- coral refs can counter climate changes. How exactly is that preventing over-fishing and pollution from our cities?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

rbrasi said:


> How exactly is that preventing over-fishing and pollution from our cities?


To fix those problems its quite easy: Everyone Stop listening to Global Warming BS and take care of Polution each and every one of us instead of pretending its only big bad countries evil empires that do it. And all fishing should be aquiculture. ONLY. All fishing banned except farmed fish.

See? Simple!



Mark


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I think that instead of subsidizing residential communities and large scale farming in the flood zones we could subsidize turning part of these flood plains into well designed stormwater runoff management areas which would absorb the extra nutrients and pollution which is killing aquatic life all the way to the sea. It is already happening using local funds because cities and counties have no choice but to deal with these issues.


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## unimacs (Sep 6, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> To fix those problems its quite easy: Everyone Stop listening to Global Warming BS and take care of Polution each and every one of us instead of pretending its only big bad countries evil empires that do it. And all fishing should be aquiculture. ONLY. All fishing banned except farmed fish.
> 
> See? Simple!
> 
> ...


Leaving Global Warming aside for a bit, one of the biggest issues we have in terms of water pollution in Minnesota is mercury. It's gotten so bad that it's recommended that you eat no more than one meal a month made from a large fish caught in Minnesota. Pregnant women shouldn't eat any. For smaller game fish it's one meal a week. Pan fish I think you can eat all you want if you don't mind spending your life cleaning them.

A major source of the mercury found in our lakes is coal-fired power plants, - which also happen to be a major source of man made CO2 that ends up in the atmosphere.

As a state we've made great strides in reducing the amount of mercury produced by power plants but most of the mercury that ends up coming down in rain and snow comes from some place else. Obviously this needs to be a world-wide effort.

Anyway my point is that whether through improved efficiency or alternative energy sources, you can address pollution *AND* CO2 (I'm not going to get into the argument over whether or not CO2 is pollution).


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

My family and I do beach clean-ups here in Hawaii routinely. Here are some pics of stuff we find. We filled that dumpster in a few hours with a lot of voulunteers. The large orange thing next to the dumpster is a highway barricade. It is plastic and had Japanese writing on it. Probably from the Japan Tsunami. The truck is full of discarded fishing gear- some huge poly lines in there. Rountinely here in Hawaii humback whales get tangle in this discarded rope. NOAA will attempt to remove from the whales when they can. Last year a just born calf died along the side of its mother after getting tangled in discarded line. Most of the fishing line is from ships operating thousands of miles away.

We also collected thousands of fragments of plastic down to the size of 1/8" x 1/8". This is what happens to plastic- it never really disapears, it just get smaller and smaller. What happens when sea life eats this stuff?


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

One thing I do not understand (well I do really understand- its all about making more profit), is why a pepermint patty candy (or many other cadies)has to have a mylar wraper? Or why all the excessive plastic packaging that exist now? Some of this packaging is so strong that you need tools to open the item (like the clear heat sealed clam shell type packaging), and you can end up getting a nasty cut from the sharp edges of the cut packaging. 

A lot of this packaging does not get recycled or disposed of properly. It eventually goes to a waterway where it has a life span of hundreds of years. 

We really need a world wide regulation on plastics. Either ban plastic packaging or use somthing that will bio-degrade in a short time. Same for other plastics- they need to be biodegradeable.

Back in the hippie era of 60's and 70's we did not have all this plastic, and we all lived a good life, and the oceans and beaches were a lot cleaner. Now plastic is used for everything and discarded everywhere.

Here in Hawaii when the grow pineapple, HDPE plastic tube is layed in the ground to water and fertilize the pineapple. After harvest the plastic tube is cut up by the plough. It eventually winds up in the ocean- just crazy.

We cannot continue to litter the earth with plastic.


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## unimacs (Sep 6, 2013)

I would guess the candy keeps better in the mylar wrapper and it's also lightweight. 

There's been something of a backlash against the blister packs and I've seen some movement away from it. There's a surprising number of emergency room visits that have resulted from people trying to open them with knives and scissors.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

unimacs said:


> I would guess the candy keeps better in the mylar wrapper and it's also lightweight.


I am sure you are right. The question should be does the benefit of having a fresh perpermint patty 1,000 times in a row offset the detriment to the planet? Or could one live with getting a stale pepermint patty 1 time out of a hundred, but with the benefit of not having 500 mylar wrappers blowing around in the wind? Even when someone throws these mylar wrappers in the outdoor trash can, they end up blowing out.

Interesting while everything in our lives is regulated by the government, the materials and method companies package goods is not one of them.


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## Tallswede (Jul 18, 2012)

I live on a tidal creek here on the Gulf Coast of Texas and the sheer amount of stuff (garbage) that floats up onto just my little bit of land is amazing. Literally garbage bags full every month. After every big rainstorm it's even worse. This stuff is being washed out of town and floats out to the bay with every rain. After Hurricane Ike there was literally tons of stuff washed up onto my property and I'm still finding that stuff back in the woods every winter. People are nasty is what I am learning and there are simply not enough of us who want to reduce, re-use, recycle yet. BUT, things have actually gotten better. My little creek was once filled with oil derricks and the waters ran like chocolate milk. The area has been cleaned up for the most part and wild life has come back. The water is much cleaner but there is still too much trash being thrown down and washed into the water shed but I have hope that as industry has gotten it's act together around here that people will too.


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## jmshaver (Sep 16, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yawn! I counter the BS with science:


You counter claims of over fishing and garbage in the ocean with an out of context article about coral ref resiliency to warmer temperatures?

Well done... I guess?


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Tallswede said:


> People are nasty is what I am learning and there are simply not enough of us who want to reduce, re-use, recycle yet. BUT, things have actually gotten better. My little creek was once filled with oil derricks and the waters ran like chocolate milk. The area has been cleaned up for the most part and wild life has come back. The water is much cleaner but there is still too much trash being thrown down and washed into the water shed but I have hope that as industry has gotten it's act together around here that people will too.


far too true. Living on the southern end of NJ, i can remember days when you could not swim in the ocean when the tide and currents would bring NY's sewerage down the coast, causing fecal counts to climb through the roof. Now it is rare to see a beach closed (and NJ has some high standards on what they consider a clean beach, beleive it or not) and in a lot of cases the once murky green ocean has become quite clear.

Here in the US the problem is no longer big companies polluting. We have largely taken care of that.. it is the everyday folk who keep tossing their garbage wherever they want. I live on a corner lot and constantly find trash in the grass. I also do some offroading into the Pine Barrens the amount of "heavy" trash I find deposited out there is just sickening.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

When it's all said and done, it's about people - too many of them. And still we spend trillions of dollars finding ways to enhance opportunities to multiply, save infants that ordinarily have no chance of survival or even a normal life, keep people alive long after they should be dead, negating nature's process of thinning out the species. All in the name of humanity. All in the face of an exponentially growing global population.

All the pollution on the planet, be it plastic or CO2 or anything else, is derived as the result of people. Plastic in itself is not a problem - it is the vast quantity of it that has to be produced to satisfy the clamoring masses. This from a website called "Treehugger" (FWIW) "Out of the 50 billion bottles of water being bought in the US each year, 80% end up in a landfill, even though recycling programs exist." (This is not a dig at the US, this is a global phenomenon). So accelerate the population growth - accelerate the pollution. More people, more power stations, more CO2, more plastic.

The planet has only so much it can produce. When we have consumed that, it's all over. Two movies from my youth come to mind - Soylent Green and The Hellstrom Chronicle. When we saw those movies we thought "science fiction" - now they are fast becoming reality. Whilst we can genetically engineer crops to produce more, we can't genetically alter the oceans to produce more fish. We can't genetically alter the people who will continue to rape the resource in search of another dollar. And we can't genetically engineer people who already have no food to stop them from creating another mouth to feed.

Humanity as a species is nothing more than a blip in the life of Planet Earth. We have this arrogance that allows us to believe that we will continue to exist forever and that this planet _*needs*_ us when we all know that humanity is just another snapshot in Earth's great picture book. The encouraging thing in all of this is that the planet will always survive. Humanity not so much. When we're all long gone, the planet will rehabilitate itself and start afresh. Who knows what it will have as its inhabitants but then again who cares? It just won't be us.

Maybe our collective wisdom will carry through and the next species will be better at preserving their version of the planet than we are/ were.

So to the belief that we can collectively do something to reverse the destructive trend - for each one of us that cares there are 1,000 people who either couldn't give a toss or are unable to. Those are not very positive odds.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Omatako said:


> When it's all said and done, *it's about people - too many of them...*
> 
> So to the belief that *we can collectively do something to reverse the destructive trend* - for *each one of us that cares *there are 1,000 people who either couldn't give a toss or are unable to. Those are not very positive odds.


Always get a chuckle out of this argument. Too many people and _*we *_need to do something about it. You don't need permission to do something about it. If you feel so strongly about it you have the capacity to make us all proud.

But I suspect your actions despite your vigorous call for urgent action will reflect the title of that old country and western song ..."Everybody wants to go to Heaven; but nobody wants to go now."


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## unimacs (Sep 6, 2013)

Our whole economic system is tied to growth (including growth in population) so that is a tough problem to solve. 

On the other hand, I think we could cut consumption of bottled water to a small fraction of what it is today even if the population continued to grow and without having any serious consequences on our quality of life.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yawn! I counter the BS with science:


Mark: you didn't read the second article all the way through, did you?

I do not doubt that you have arrived at your conviction through thoughtful consideration of the facts as you know them, but man, help me understand your viewpoint; there must stories that are more compelling than this one.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

unimacs said:


> FWIW the number and variety of birds and animals have increased in the area I grew up and the water is cleaner. It is possible to turn this stuff around.


Sidetracking a bit:

Another two data points: My experience in the Western US mountains and in the southern end of the Cumberland Plateau suggest that in both zones there are more forest mammals, and more wild mammals coexisting with humans in suburban areas; fewer number and varieties of forest birds, but lots of birds that thrive year 'round in human habitat, fewer number and variety of butterflies, fewer frogs, fewer bats. Oh, and fewer reef fish and coral in the Bahamas. More lionfish.

What I wonder is: how significant are the changes I'm seeing in the long-term big-picture? Are populations always this dynamic, or even more dynamic? I think most people tend to aggrandize the importance of events that happen in their own experience, i.e. their own particular time of living, so maybe what I'm perceiving as major trends away from normal are actually quite normal.

I read a book that described the return of life to northern North America after the last great Ice Age. The author asserted that the evolution of life is slower than the change in climate so at any time in the past, life has evolved to the climate of previous years but is not particularly well-suited for the present.

The concern is that the climate change pace and amplitude may get out of range for most life as we know it today to keep up. It's a probable problem sometime in the future, but middle-age people don't have to worry unless they care about future people, animals, or plants.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

Omatako said:


> So to the belief that we can collectively do something to reverse the destructive trend - for each one of us that cares there are 1,000 people who either couldn't give a toss or are unable to. Those are not very positive odds.


My work in energy efficiency lead me to rubbing elbows with energy economists and that lead me to believe that _collectively_ is the _only_ way to reverse the destructive trend. But getting enough people to all think collectively requires central control of the breadth and depth that I want nothing to do with - to me the USA is already excessively controlling its citizens.

But I agree that working as individuals and small groups may be futile.

Once I was angry at some beavers who had felled several large aspen trees to get enough twigs to build a dam. The area looked like hell and the resulting pond inundated my favorite mountain bike trail through a wildflower meadow. Then I thought, why be angry, they are just beavers doing what beavers do. Well, I think **** sapiens are doing what **** sapiens do. And the world goes on. I'm glad I got to do so many things that future people won't be able to, but they will do things I can't even imagine.


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## unimacs (Sep 6, 2013)

jwing said:


> My work in energy efficiency lead me to rubbing elbows with energy economists and that lead me to believe that _collectively_ is the _only_ way to reverse the destructive trend. But getting enough people to all think collectively requires central control of the breadth and depth that I want nothing to do with - to me the USA is already excessively controlling its citizens.
> 
> But I agree that working as individuals and small groups may be futile.
> 
> Once I was angry at some beavers who had felled several large aspen trees to get enough twigs to build a dam. The area looked like hell and the resulting pond inundated my favorite mountain bike trail through a wildflower meadow. Then I thought, why be angry, they are just beavers doing what beavers do. Well, I think **** sapiens are doing what **** sapiens do. And the world goes on. I'm glad I got to do so many things that future people won't be able to, but they will do things I can't even imagine.


I guess I'm not quite so pessimistic. It is possible to change behavior on a mass scale over time. Per capita energy use dropped in the late 70's. People do actually use seat belts today and a lot few people smoke than they used to. In some cases it can take decades.

European countries have made great strides in renewables and energy conservation. We should be embarrassed.


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## The Ol Man (Jul 13, 2013)

I got news for you MarkofSeaLife. Polution is the cause of Gobal Warming. Air polution by the exstream continued use of fossil fuels can and is changing the chemical make up of the air we breath; seen pictures out of major Chinesse cities on the TV new lately. The changing of the chemical make up of the air is allowing more radiation through to heat the earth and oceans. The earth is a huge heat sink that takes billions and billions of BTU's to change even 1 degree in tempature but we have been changeing the air for a hundred years now and now the earth is heating up. 
Larger problem, if we don't stop this heating soon the tempature will continue to rise faster and faster. (Thermo class 101) We humans live in a rather narrow tempature range. The things we live on, i.e. food, live in about the same range. When the dural tempatures start exceeding that narrow range continuiously we die, our food dies, get it..


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

The Ol Man said:


> Polution is the cause of Gobal Warming.
> 
> Global warming or climate change? Gotta keep those terms straight otherwise the rubes will catch onto the fact that the whole issue is a political scam that uses emotion and shaky "science" to prove that Lincoln was right..."you can fool some of the people all of the time".
> 
> ...


Why do people travel to the warmest spots on this blue orb to vacation? There are a few people who enjoy activities requiring snow and ice but - for the most part - we all dream of sailing to tropical or near-tropical places. Must be because warm is bad!!!

Wouldn't it be great if the entire planet had a 365 day growing season? Then we could grow a LOT of the things we live on i.e. food.


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## The Ol Man (Jul 13, 2013)

Jwing and unimacs
It has been proven that we can change, you in your lifetime have seen it. Can we change it more and faster? Yes I belive it can be done. I have a feeling that mother nature is going to give us some assistance and soon. I assume that you have seen the picutres in the new out of China, Much more that level of polution and people will start dying, not just a few but hundreds perhaps thousands. Remember the furrer after the earth quakkes destoryed the schools in China? Think about it, if California had not push through air polution limits LA could be looking like that now too.
You mentioned solar power in Europe kicking our butts, How many wind farms have been built resently? Solar power plants are in the works too. Electric cars are being built and bought as fast as they build them. Major car companies have changed entire production lines to produce more efficent carbon base fuels vehicles and hybrids that are even better. 
You are too young to remember WWII but after the shock of Pearl Harbor sunk in This country, good old U.S. of A. turned an entire national econome around in less than two years and became the biggest war materials producer in the world. We invented more, produced more and better than any country or nation in the world had ever seen or know
could be done. It wasn't easy or cheap, we did without a lot to make it happen but we did it.
This situation is like that in many ways. Many people before the war predicted it was coming, but as a whole the nation and its leadership would not listen. The problem is not ours, it's somewhere else, it isn't effecting me and mine,. ignore it, it's been that way for years, what do you expect me to do about it. Sound like 9/11 to you. 
Well I see it this way, sooner than we think something major is going to happen and wake this country and the rest of the world up to the fact that something has got to be done. The more people that are doing the little things, proveing that it can be done the better off we will be, and the faster the bigger things will happen.
What are the little things? Some one in these posts mentioned candy wrapers made of mylar, and plastic bubble packaging. What would happen is several hundred people simply wrote a letter to the company stating I like your product but I will not buy it because it is packaged in a non biodegradable wrapper. Believe me, it will get some attention. If and they probably will send back a letter telling you that their packaging is that way to keep it fresher longer or something to that effect simply tell them that's all well and good but I will eat it in less that a week and a biodegradable wrapper will keep it fresh for a week but the mylar wrapper is still be here a hundred years from now, or something to that effect. 
Remember these companies are in bissness to sell their products. They are constantly taking surveys to modify as necessary their product to meet the wants, likes, demands of the customers. Unsolisited comments have a big impact, more than 10 to 1, of company spondsered surveys, a few hundred letters bout the same thing is the equivilant of thousands. 
Want another little thing. Not to long ago it was announced that standard incondesant light bluds were being phased out of production because small flurecent bulbs could be 
produced that used markedly less power and lasted longer. (Everybody cheer) But they didn't bother to make a big deal out of the fact that these bulbs contain mercury and should not be put into the trash but should be safely, properly desposed of. OK, aaah where? The store that sold them didn't want them back, they didn't know what to do with them. City, county dumps would not take them, though they did for awhile before somebody informed them that they contained mercury and they were contaminating run off into streams, rivers, lakes and ground waters. Hey, thats our drinking water. 
Well letters to city and county government asking to provide us with a place to dispose of these light blubs and you find a desposal or recycling center, its part of your job or we will replace you with some one who will. Polite, simple, little things done by many will and can make a difference. 
Do the little things now and the bigger things will happen


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

fryewe said:


> Why do people travel to the warmest spots on this blue orb to vacation? There are a few people who enjoy activities requiring snow and ice but - for the most part - we all dream of sailing to tropical or near-tropical places. Must be because warm is bad!!!
> 
> Wouldn't it be great if the entire planet had a 365 day growing season? Then we could grow a LOT of the things we live on i.e. food.


We can now also grow massive hurricanes and typhoons that are the size of entire continents and wipe out all them sunny beaches in one fell swoop. Yay us!


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

The Ol Man said:


> What are the little things? Some one in these posts mentioned candy wrapers made of mylar, and plastic bubble packaging. What would happen is several hundred people simply wrote a letter to the company stating I like your product but I will not buy it because it is packaged in a non biodegradable wrapper. Believe me, it will get some attention. If and they probably will send back a letter telling you that their packaging is that way to keep it fresher longer or something to that effect simply tell them that's all well and good but I will eat it in less that a week and a biodegradable wrapper will keep it fresh for a week but the mylar wrapper is still be here a hundred years from now, or something to that effect.


It was not that long ago that the Peppermint Pattie and the Hersey's chocolate bar were sold in paper and foil packaging. I don;t remember getting any more or any less fresh tasting candybars back then. Heck, the Hersey's minutures are -still- wrapped in paper foil.

You are right about automobiles too, in my lifetime they started mandating seatbelts in the cars (took a law to make us actually use them) and people always said that "safety doesn't sell".. well, now you could not sell a car without 2 dozen airbags and a 5 star crash rating.

Same with Fuel economy. The days of gas guzzling V8s is about done. Not when Smaller engines can make similar amounts of power and still get good miliage. Even those few cars that still come with big V8s are getting better and better economy as the years go by.

In many cases it was done through economics. People did not start taking fuel efficent cars seriously (who wants to drive a Hyundai Excel again?) until gas hit 5 dollars a gallon. Suddenly mid-sized cars are getting 40mpg. (makes you think the potential had always been there).

We -can- save the earth.. many people want to, but to get everyone on board, you have to make it economically feasable (ie, an incentive) to do so.

Take trash for instance. My trash pickup is once a week in a HUGE can. I can throw anything in there that is not hazardous as long as the full can does not weigh more than 300 pounds. It is all taken out of my taxes and I have the same bill wether I throw out thousands of pounds worth of stuff of almost none at all.

What if we started weighing the garbage? You pay by what you throw out.. but recycling is free.... it does not need to be government mandated, it can be done through Waste Management (who picks up my trash) as a way to cut their own costs.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

xymotic said:


> We can now also grow massive hurricanes and typhoons that are the size of entire continents and wipe out all them sunny beaches in one fell swoop. Yay us!


YGTBSM.

Nothing like a little hyperbole and outrageous claims to bolster one's arguments. Nothing damages an argument more than to contaminate with a**crockery.

"We" grow them? Heh.

"The size of entire continents"? Double heh.

Never had those things before the Industrial Revolution. Tell that to De Luna when you see him in the afterlife.

I can see those new multiple choice questions on middle school tests now - "What is responsible for the growth in size and intensity of cyclones?" A. "Plastics in the ocean"


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Its kind of cool isn't it ? First we deny GlobalWarming/Climatechange is actually occurring, next we let that slide on by and deny that it is in any way caused by us and when all else fails we slide merrily on to "hey guys, wouldn't it nice if all the world was Florida ?"


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

If that weren't so funny, it would be sad. Fortunately I base my opinions on sounder sources than these threads . So I continue to reduce my personal footprint on the planet and recycle all I can while I contemplate the situation from the deck of the boat I made from recycled material. Incidentally , my new franchise concept, a euthanasia spa and boutique is gaining acceptance so there is a glimmer of hope.


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## Quinn99 (Oct 27, 2013)

Saddened by the notion that it may take an epic collapse for us to wake up?!


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Capt Len said:


> If that weren't so funny, it would be sad. Fortunately I base my opinions on sounder sources than these threads . So I continue to reduce my personal footprint on the planet and recycle all I can while I contemplate the situation from the deck of the boat I made from recycled material. Incidentally , my new franchise concept, a euthanasia spa and boutique is gaining acceptance so there is a glimmer of hope.


going to be opening any Soylent Green Francises?


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

The next obvious question is what to do about it? How could sailors individually and collectively be a force to protect the oceans?


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

# 1. Don't buy anything made of plastic.....whether made in china or not. 
# 2 .don't buy anything made in china.......... Whether plastic or not.
# 3 .stay the hell out of walmart..................!
#4 . Remember when pointing a finger at someone else there are 4 fingers
pointing right back at you............
#5 . Stop saying "if"......


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I buy a lot of things from China. In fact, if it were not for the Chinese, this country would not have advanced at the pace it did. China is NOT the problem, and those that blame China and Walmart for the nation's and world's problems should take a good, long look in the mirror. Don't insult the Chinese people's intelligence - they invented things you use ever day - including the compass on your boat. Don't think so? Maybe it's time you began studying world history. Here's a good place to start: Fusang: The Chinese who built America: Stan Steiner: 9780060907501: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51Hj4L5W6ZL

Good luck,

Gary


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

MikeGuyver said:


> # 1. Don't buy anything made of plastic.


I avoid plastic when I can, but obviously there are exceptions. Boats, for instance.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Big differnce between single use plastic and something made to last for years. 


I've been reading about the Albotross and Petrals dying from eating plastic out in the Pacific. Since then I have been avoiding single use plastic. Lots of sea birds being found dead with Pepsi caps in their gut.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Sal Paradise said:


> Big differnce between single use plastic and something made to last for years.


Yes, I was being a bit facetious. I also avoid styrofoam packaging and cups, but I didn't hesitate to buy a couple thousand dollars of it to insulate our basement. The use is as important as the product.



Sal Paradise said:


> I've been reading about the Albotross and Petrals dying frm eating plastic out in the Pacific. Since then I have been avoiding single use plastic. Lost of sea birds being found dead with Pepsi caps in their gut.


Yeah, it's really quite disturbing. I hope we can transition to plastics that breakdown after a period. I'm experimenting with some corn-based plastic in my compost pile right now. It's looking like it will take several years to decompose, but that's better than, say, never.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

If plastic was the only product made from oil/coal and all plastic was valuable enough to be recycled the world could handle it. FG boats are such a small factor ,no need to feel guilty (although wood is better). A more likely solution will be for the survivors to knit their own shirts from wool from their own goats fed with turnips from their home built garden wheelbarrow .the lucky ones will have sugar beets to make hooch. Other alternative scenarios may be more disruptive of the society we know today. It would be nice if we humans could choose one.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

that is just it.. single use plastic is the wrong use for something that never biodegrades.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

The Ol Man said:


> Jwing and unimacs
> What are the little things? Some one in these posts mentioned candy wrapers made of mylar, and plastic bubble packaging. What would happen is several hundred people simply wrote a letter to the company stating I like your product but I will not buy it because it is packaged in a non biodegradable wrapper. Believe me, it will get some attention. If and they probably will send back a letter telling you that their packaging is that way to keep it fresher longer or something to that effect simply tell them that's all well and good but I will eat it in less that a week and a biodegradable wrapper will keep it fresh for a week but the mylar wrapper is still be here a hundred years from now, or something to that effect.
> 
> Remember these companies are in bissness to sell their products. They are constantly taking surveys to modify as necessary their product to meet the wants, likes, demands of the customers. Unsolisited comments have a big impact, more than 10 to 1, of company spondsered surveys, a few hundred letters bout the same thing is the equivilant of thousands.
> ...


Good point. I plan to write some letters.

We really need to change all this plastic packaging in use today. Even if some of us reduce, reuse, recycle, there is no way that will offset the impacts of billions of people that do not recycle. The majority of earth's people live in very depressed economic areas. They do not have access to recycle programs- they are just concerned about the day to day struggles to survive.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

fryewe said:


> Always get a chuckle out of this argument. Too many people and _*we *_need to do something about it. You don't need permission to do something about it. If you feel so strongly about it you have the capacity to make us all proud.
> 
> But I suspect your actions despite your vigorous call for urgent action will reflect the title of that old country and western song ..."Everybody wants to go to Heaven; but nobody wants to go now."


I can't recall saying that *we* need to do something about it nor making calls for vigorous action - my view is that there is nothing can be done about it. The top 6 countries in the world comprise half of the total current world population - one of them does not subscribe to the Kyoto Protocol. New Zealand is No. 124 out of 242 and we do. How are we going to help more?

FWIW, I have done something about it - we have one child and our child has one child. But that was done for reasons other than saving the planet - much more selfish ones that just happen coincide with being a treehugger which I am not.

And actually, I don't feel strongly about it - civilisation as we know it is destined to implode but my decendants ten times removed will need to worry about that - it's not going to happen tomorrow morning.

I'm more concerned about a 17-trillion dollar national debt that is out there and is a much more imminent threat for every person on the planet. And that is not ten generations away. And there is absolutely nothing I can do about that either.


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## scottbr (Aug 14, 2007)

Isn't this thread extremely hypocritical of the threads bashing the Greenpeace movements to stop the whaling and tuna overfishing by the Japanese fishing fleet ???


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

scottbr said:


> Isn't this thread extremely hypocritical of the threads bashing the Greenpeace movements to stop the whaling and tuna overfishing by the Japanese fishing fleet ???


How is this thread being hypocritical? I am all for what Greenpeace is doing and have done, but I like Sea Shepherd better.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Omatako said:


> I'm more concerned about a 17-trillion dollar national debt that is out there and is a much more imminent threat for every person on the planet. And that is not ten generations away. And there is absolutely nothing I can do about that either.


I am more worried about plastic pollution as opposed to the US national debt. The Earth can always file for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy, but it will take us a 1,000 years to recover from the waste we lay on her.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

casey1999 said:


> Good point. I plan to write some letters.
> 
> We really need to change all this plastic packaging in use today. Even if some of us reduce, reuse, recycle, there is no way that will offset the impacts of billions of people that do not recycle. The majority of earth's people live in very depressed economic areas. They do not have access to recycle programs- they are just concerned about the day to day struggles to survive.


I read an article last year that I cannot find now.. but it was talking about how cheap it is to make things out of plastic now. One of things they mentioned are the ubiquitous plastic chairs that you see all over the place. They are literally too cheap to bother fixing. Even in Third world nations where they have little to no luxury, if one breaks, they throw it away and buy another.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

mad_machine said:


> I read an article last year that I cannot find now.. but it was talking about how cheap it is to make things out of plastic now. One of things they mentioned are the ubiquitous plastic chairs that you see all over the place. They are literally too cheap to bother fixing. Even in Third world nations where they have little to no luxury, if one breaks, they throw it away and buy another.


Yea plastics in water suck:


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

casey1999 said:


> Yea plastics in water suck:


Easily fixed - by these people who have apparently been around for a few years now, and others like them: Converting Plastic to Oil

Supposedly their technology works - and their web site claims a conversion ratio for waste plastic into fuel of 86%. Approximately 1 gallon of fuel is extracted from 8.3 lbs. of plastic and they can process up to 4,000 lbs. per hour.

They could make a fortune out of the streams of plastic in the pics you posted.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

casey1999 said:


> Yea plastics in water suck:


Those pictures are seriously bumming me out, dude.

Just now I put a 30' by 20' plastic tarp over my boat. It came in plastic packaging. I tied it down with bungie cords from little plastic tubs came in a plastic bag.

Plastic, so awesome, but so forever.

I really hope they get on with developing degradable plastic. We can still use the forever kind for boats and heart valves and stuff, but use the stuff that degrades for packaging and temporary uses.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

There is a biodegradable plastic available, but it's tensile strength is garbage. It's made with corn starch, and takes about 6 years to fall apart. And, it needs direct sunlight in order to deteriorate into dust. When buried in a landfill, it lasts forever. The only real benefit of plastic over paper is that it takes up less space in the landfill and you don't have to kill a tree. The manufacturing process of paper wraps is far more costly, more environmental damaging and it too tends to last forever when buried in a landfill. There's an outfit that was featured on the discover channel that found 100 year old newspapers in a NY landfill that were as good as the day they were printed - preserved perfectly by the soil they were encapsulated within. Go figure.

Gary


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

travlineasy said:


> There is a biodegradable plastic available, but it's tensile strength is garbage. It's made with corn starch, and takes about 6 years to fall apart. And, it needs direct sunlight in order to deteriorate into dust. When buried in a landfill, it lasts forever.


For our 2012 party I bought a bunch of corn starch keg cups for the beer. They're as strong as any petroleum plastic, at least when you're talking about holding beer for one night, and they do seem to be breaking down without sunlight. I put them in a compost pile and they are definitely breaking down. Slowly. Very slowly. I'm 14 months out in this experiment and just turned the pile. The thinnest edge parts are already gone, the thick parts have clouded over and are fragile. I think another year or two and they'll be gone. Anyway, it all goes into my garden.

For this year's party I went with paper cups that are coated with a thin layer of corn plastic. They worked great as beer cups, and are already breaking down into compost. I think they'll be decomposed and in the garden next spring.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Classic30 said:


> Easily fixed - by these people who have apparently been around for a few years now, and others like them: Converting Plastic to Oil
> 
> Supposedly their technology works - and their web site claims a conversion ratio for waste plastic into fuel of 86%. Approximately 1 gallon of fuel is extracted from 8.3 lbs. of plastic and they can process up to 4,000 lbs. per hour.
> 
> They could make a fortune out of the streams of plastic in the pics you posted.


that sounds like good recycling to me. Might even make it worth while for people to consider recycling all their plastic. I try pretty hard. being single, I put out my trash every two to three weeks (they collect once a week) wether it needs to go out or not.. but I always have a overflowing recycling bins


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

Seems like I struck a raw nerve with the plastic comment. Huh, probably too close to the truth for some of you to hear. I did not say anything about Chineese people not being intelligent. And yes I am very aware of world history. The fact is some people can't separate the past from the future. Whether you have purchased plastic products made in China or anywhere else is HISTORY. (period)...stop and think about what you do TODAY...you can't change history only learn from it.
How about trying this; The next time you're out on your boat pick up a bag of garbage and take it back to the recycle bin. When ( I won't use the word "if") WE do this WE will start to fix the problem. And just maybe someone else will see us doing this and join in.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

if the pacific is so dead, why , then, splain me, is it that there are so many lovely fishies answering the lure, and so many different species--has been wonderful eating here......


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

The pacific is not 'dead' it is however suffering . Just do what you can to help.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

MikeGuyver said:


> How about trying this; The next time you're out on your boat pick up a bag of garbage and take it back to the recycle bin. When ( I won't use the word "if") WE do this WE will start to fix the problem. And just maybe someone else will see us doing this and join in.


If groups can "adopt a road" maybe we should start an "adopt a river" program?


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

Great idea Art. Oregon has annual beach clean up days. I'll make a few phone calls and see what's going on about the rivers.
Sometimes when we see floating 'stuff' we turn around and use it as MOB practice picking it up, free and kinda fun.


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

Go here
www.solv.org/what-we-do/oregon-adopt-a-river


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

travlineasy said:


> There is a biodegradable plastic available, but it's tensile strength is garbage. It's made with corn starch, and takes about 6 years to fall apart. And, it needs direct sunlight in order to deteriorate into dust. When buried in a landfill, it lasts forever. The only real benefit of plastic over paper is that it takes up less space in the landfill and you don't have to kill a tree. The manufacturing process of paper wraps is far more costly, more environmental damaging and it too tends to last forever when buried in a landfill. There's an outfit that was featured on the discover channel that found 100 year old newspapers in a NY landfill that were as good as the day they were printed - preserved perfectly by the soil they were encapsulated within. Go figure.
> 
> Gary


Most people think that trash is supposed to decompose in a landfill. The opposite is actually true. Landfills have a water proof liner and a clay water proof cap. Idea is to try to keep all water out so the leachate does not contaminate water sources. In the process, there is very little oxygen in a landfill. Landfills actually produce methane that can be burned and used to produce electicity by using a gas turbine.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

casey1999 said:


> I am more worried about plastic pollution as opposed to the US national debt. The Earth can always file for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy, but it will take us a 1,000 years to recover from the waste we lay on her.


If the US government files for a Chapter 11 (if that were even possible) we'll all be eating the plastic.

There will be no food.

Worldwide.

Maybe plastic coffins made from material found floating in the sea? There is going to be huge demand. Mmmmmmm . . . . .


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

casey1999 said:


> Most people think that trash is supposed to decompose in a landfill. The opposite is actually true. Landfills have a water proof liner and a clay water proof cap. Idea is to try to keep all water out so the leachate does not contaminate water sources. In the process, there is very little oxygen in a landfill. Landfills actually produce methane that can be burned and used to produce electicity by using a gas turbine.


Trvia fact: Anybody know what the worlds largest man made thing is?

It's the Fresh Kills Landfill in Staten Island, NY


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Omatako said:


> If the US government files for a Chapter 11 (if that were even possible) we'll all be eating the plastic.
> 
> There will be no food.
> 
> ...


We can eat the "plastic eating cows".


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I saw my first land-fill fire when I was a kid in Baltimore. The old Baltimore landfill was directly across the harbor in the Patapsco's lower reaches and was about 90 feet above the high tide line. We used to go there and shoot rats with a .22 rifle, which was legal back then and the amazing thing is you could burn the barrel out of your rifle before you could put a tiny dent in the landfill's rat population. 

That landfill never harvested their methane gas emissions, and one evening it burst into a blue flame that shot 20 feet in the air and burned for a week. It was really wild. I was really amazed at the difference the gold domes at the Back River Wastewater Treatment Plant have made during the past decade. There was a time when you couldn't stand to be downwind of the plant because of the methane emissions, but today, the odoriferous waft is very faint, even on a hot, humid, summer evening. The methane is now being harvested from the plant and sold to the City of Baltimore for fuel, at least that's what I was told. I thought that was pretty neat!

Cheers,

Gary


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

I would have thought the pacific plastic gyre was bigger. Not enough data maybe. One day after the breakup we'll be mining it to rebuild our petro chemical industry.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)




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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

A hundred years after man has died off, the oceans will be fine.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Couple weeks back sailed to Annapolis and back to R.I. Went through D+C canal. Down outside L.I. back up through NYC and inside L.I. Did part from NYC double handed. Even coastal big issue on all legs was "dead heads". Totally amazed at the amount of crap in the water and the near impossibility of seeing it especially at night until it was past you. Off shore have run into cars ( with the white plastic wrap still on them), seen containers, logs telephone poles and acres of plastic. Our rule is if you can eat it you can throw it in the ocean ( makes for happy crabs and lobsters). Otherwise goes in the lazerette. On land compose and recycle. Don't think this is a political issue. Just think it makes sense to not defecate where you eat.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

mad_machine said:


> If groups can "adopt a road" maybe we should start an "adopt a river" program?


That is a good idea. You may be glad to learn that many, maybe most, river running clubs have annual cleanup days for their local rivers. Often, nearby municipalities will contribute by picking up the collected garbage that the boaters deposit in piles at specified take-outs.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I remember reading an article by Thor Heyerdahl, about his being shocked at how much more pollution he found in the ocean in 1969 and 1970 voyage on Ra and RaII , than he found in 1947 on Kon-Tiki. Even taking into account the fact that it was different bodies of water, he found a lot more pollution in the second trip.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Group9 said:


> A hundred years after man has died off, the oceans will be fine.


Willing to wait that long?


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## Patient (Jan 7, 2009)

Jeremy Jackson nails it in the TED talk about overfishing.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

mad_machine said:


> Willing to wait that long?


No, but I'll bet the ocean is.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Sure G9 the universe will survive without makind too but that isn't relevant or helpful to our conversation about what "we" do in our lifetime and what we experience in our lifetimes with pollution...sea life and coral reefs....etc...

patient 

that video is unbelievable. The ending where he says we must change ourselves to imagine a world that isn't about greed and our frantic pursuit of "growth" is very powerful. In many small ways I know I have done that and I think its epitomized by many of the sailors who read and post here. They do not seem greedy, and they surely love the ocean.

If I could just imagine for a moment a partial solution, I could see fleets of underwater drones with cameras and sensors monitoring the ocean floor and the coral reefs and reporting back continuous information, combined with AIS, GPS and global weather data to make a tool for scientists, fisherman and politicians. A plan could be developed to manage, restore and preserve fish populations and habitat.


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## unimacs (Sep 6, 2013)

zeehag said:


> if the pacific is so dead, why , then, splain me, is it that there are so many lovely fishies answering the lure, and so many different species--has been wonderful eating here......


Of course the Pacific isn't dead. Though I know folks mean well, exaggerations like that appeal to people who are already sympathetic to the message but are often completely dismissed by anyone who is skeptical.

If the goal is to motivate people to change on a large scale, it's best to stick to facts and skip the hyperbole.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> Sure G9 the universe will survive without makind too but that isn't relevant or helpful to our conversation about what "we" do in our lifetime and what we experience in our lifetimes with pollution...sea life and coral reefs....etc...
> 
> patient
> 
> ...


You really think that massive electronic surveillance of the ocean is the answer to this problem?

Good luck with that.

There are about 200 countries operating on this planet and most are contributing to the pollution of the ocean. What's your plan to bring all of them to one mind and to act together?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Maybe Brent is right.we should be in steel.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Interesting to contemplate.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

casey1999 said:


> Mark o sea life,
> Just because you see a few dolphins off the east coast means nothing. I sail in waters north of Hawaii and have yet to see Japanese floatsum in the water, and I see dolphins and whales at times. That also means nothing. the Pacific as well as all oceans and waterways around the world are being and have been destroyed. Due to population growth and the demand for marine products from a growing and prosperous asian population, the rate of destruction of the oceans and the Pacific in particular has accelerated at a pace not seen before.
> 
> The oceans are being destroyed not only by overfishing and destructive fishing, but also by plastics.


Casey,
You are absolutely correct. However, if you get off the beaten track, which cruising affords, then you will still see the Ocean is still rich in sea life...it may not last. so get out here while you can!


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Group9 said:


> You really think that massive electronic surveillance of the ocean is the answer to this problem?
> 
> Good luck with that.
> 
> There are about 200 countries operating on this planet and most are contributing to the pollution of the ocean. What's your plan to bring all of them to one mind and to act together?


I am probably more familiar with autonomous vehicle technology than you are. Small underwater drones would be anything but massive. Technoloy is leaping and bounding faster than we can even follow the advances. The capabilities and low cost are stunning. Nothing else, no other technology can approach it for low cost, lack of intrusion or impact and effective information gathering of this type.

Survelliance is a telling word choice,.. why would you say that? Seems to convey suspicion and evil doing. By your definition, would a farmer checking his cows be keeping surveillance on them?

I certainly don't have a plan to bring countries together. I do know that knowledge is better than lack of knowledge in developing policies and acheiving goals. If the goal is to NOT kill aquatic life, then information is the first step in preserving it.

Or we could follow your plan of reviving the ocean after all of humanity is extinct.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> I am probably more familiar with autonomous vehicle technology than you are. Small underwater drones would be anything but massive. Technoloy is leaping and bounding faster than we can even follow the advances. The capabilities and low cost are stunning. Nothing else, no other technology can approach it for low cost, lack of intrusion or impact and effective information gathering of this type.
> 
> Survelliance is a telling word choice,.. why would you say that? Seems to convey suspicion and evil doing. By your definition, would a farmer checking his cows be keeping surveillance on them?
> 
> ...


I say surveillance because that was a large part of my job for most of my life, and I probably know a little more about it than you might guess, and that was what we called what you are talking about doing.

I've also worked in foreign countries, for our government, and have seen, firsthand, how hard it is to get cooperation, on the smallest, and most uncontroversial things. If thinking that I will see happen in the future, the same things I have seen happen in the past, makes me a nut, then I am a nut.


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## seafrontiersman (Mar 2, 2009)

Sal Paradise said:


> Sure G9 the universe will survive without makind too but that isn't relevant or helpful to our conversation about what "we" do in our lifetime and what we experience in our lifetimes with pollution...sea life and coral reefs....etc...
> 
> patient
> 
> ...


I want clean oceans and a place for wildlife as much as anyone, maybe not some insane lefties but as much as normal people do. However, the idea of drones roaming the waters (and skies) in their thousands keeping an eye on me and recording everything I do is horrifying to me; especially when those drones are under the control of various humorless"green" do-gooders and faceless government bureaucrats. One of the reasons I sail, one of the reasons I make my living on the sea is the freedom and the need to be self-reliant. I can be monitored and controlled much more efficiently on land. I know that there are drones operating out there now but the idea of Earth First or Greenpeace drones is just creepy.

I'll destroy EVERY drone I come across


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Relax, my opinion means nuts anyway. I am literally a nobody. Not an "insane lefty" either. 

But I do know this - these wonderful inventions are coming. I was just in a hobby store looking at $500 GoPro Quadcopters that follow you and run the camera. Imagine a snowboarder posting a video of himself doing jumps and shooting down a huge mountain. or a surfer, sailor, whatever... same thing. A sportsman. All footage is by his own personal drone with a Gopro, 360 degree view from 10 feet overhead. Same thing with sailboats, autocross, motorcycles, hikers. You can buy this today, its on the shelf for $500 .. Has built in GPS and alitmeter, links to your Iphone. 


Anything can be used for evil, but this amazing technology is coming to you and me to use. Imagine forest fires, emegency responders, surveyors, athletes.... the list is endless.. 90% will be helping us see and look at the world in ways we could have never imagined. Its here. Thats technology coming into your hands. Not politics.


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## seafrontiersman (Mar 2, 2009)

Sal Paradise said:


> Relax, my opinion means nuts anyway. I am literally a nobody. Not an "insane lefty" either.
> 
> But I do know this - these wonderful inventions are coming. I was just in a hobby store looking at $500 GoPro Quadcopters that follow you and run the camera. Imagine a snowboarder posting a video of himself doing jumps and shooting down a huge mountain. or a surfer, sailor, whatever... same thing. A sportsman. All footage is by his own personal drone with a Gopro, 360 degree view from 10 feet overhead. Same thing with sailboats, autocross, motorcycles, hikers. You can buy this today, its on the shelf for $500 .. Has built in GPS and alitmeter, links to your Iphone.
> 
> Anything can be used for evil, but this amazing technology is coming to you and me to use. Imagine forest fires, emegency responders, surveyors, athletes.... the list is endless.. 90% will be helping us see and look at the world in ways we could have never imagined. Its here. Thats technology coming into your hands. Not politics.


That's strict governmental control, political correctness, and tyranny coming to shackle my hands and I won't stand for it.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)




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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

seafrontiersman said:


> That's strict governmental control, political correctness, and tyranny coming to shackle my hands and I won't stand for it.


GoPro helicopters are political correctness? I don't know how this conversation went from studying the ocean to tyranny fears.

There is so, so much we don't know about the ocean. Getting little 'bots down there to map and record and study sounds like a great idea. We literally have better maps of the moon than we do of the ocean floor.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Glued those stickers on my boat stipulating how, what and when I can throw out my garbage and pump my head. I would do it all even without the stickers but the need to keep the coasties off my back by having the sticker just fries my butt. Lousy folks are going to do wrong with the stickers in place and good folks won't even with no damn stickers. The stickers made some lawyer feel good so we mar our pretty boats with them. Don't think laws or surveillance change behavior. Think social pressure does. See garbage people dump on the side of the road now my town makes you buy orange plastic bags to put it in to be recycled. New phenomena. Before people recycled at the dump. No garbage roadside seen. See no garbage on the streets in some countries both rich and poor and trash in some U.S. cities all over the streets. If you don't respect yourself you will not respect nature. Still, be good to document and fine the commercial offenders. 
Wow that rant felt good


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Got to hand it to Google for supporting the cause:

The Falkor gears up to help fill void of sea studies Hawaii News, Honolulu, Honolulu News, Sports, Editorial, Features, Travel and Business - Honolulu Star-Advertiser - Hawaii Newspaper

The Falkor gears up to help fill void of sea studies

By Marcel Honoré

POSTED: 01:30 a.m. HST, Nov 02, 2013 
LAST UPDATED: 01:57 a.m. HST, Nov 02, 2013

KRYSTLE MARCELLUS / [email protected]
Schmidt Ocean Institute's research vessel, The Falkor, recently arrived at Aloha Tower on Thursday, October 31, 2013. 
A stone's throw from Aloha Tower on Thursday, Wendy Schmidt gazed from the stern of her private foundation's research vessel, the Falkor, at the glistening turquoise-blue of Hono*lulu Harbor and pondered the journey ahead.

More ocean study must be done - and it needs to get done a lot more quickly, she said.

Furthermore, those who live thousands of miles from any ocean need to understand how the seas' health affects everyone - not just those who live in coastal areas like Hawaii, she added.

"As the oceans are in peril from many sources, we think this is an urgent mission," said Schmidt, who's the wife of Google Executive Chairman Eric Schmidt.

She's in town for a private symposium at the Royal Hawaiian Hotel this weekend organized by the couple's science venture, the Schmidt Ocean Institute, that aims to help speed the pace of ocean research. The institute also looks to help fill the void left by dwindling federal research budgets, precisely at a time "when the oceans are under attack" and need study the most, Schmidt said.

The Falkor, meanwhile, is gearing up for a series of expeditions early next year to the Northwestern Hawaiian Island chain.

The Falkor docked in Hono*lulu on Wednesdayand it's the institute's 272-foot-long mobile, globe-trotting headquarters. It was originally built in the early 1980s as a German coast guard ship. But after a $60 million retrofit by the institute - including a science control center room, flat-screen monitors that can display live images of the ocean floor, and even a reading lounge - its high-tech interior now resembles something out of a James Cameron movie.

The Falkor's most recent voyage, from Seattle to Hono*lulu, took it through parts of the so-called Great Pacific garbage patch - a massive swirling vortex of plastic, trash and marine debris in the middle of the sea, largely out of sight from civilization.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Minnesail said:


> GoPro helicopters are political correctness? I don't know how this conversation went from studying the ocean to tyranny fears.
> 
> There is so, so much we don't know about the ocean. Getting little 'bots down there to map and record and study sounds like a great idea. We literally have better maps of the moon than we do of the ocean floor.


I think you might be surprised at well we have the ocean floor mapped, although most of that mapping is classified.

I live near the facility and agency that does that very thing.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Why West Coast Sea Life Is So Wacky Right Now - Svati Kirsten Narula - The Atlantic

_California has witnessed a veritable explosion of sea life over the past six months, and whales aren't the only ones making waves. Environmental scientists said in December that they were seeing "unprecedented" numbers of brown pelicans in the San Francisco Bay Area. It's been "a months-long carnival of lunging humpback whales, bird clouds, dolphin wizardry, frenzied sea lions, playful killer whales and even visits from marine royalty - blue whales," wrote the Santa Cruz Sentinel. To borrow a line from Melville: Surely all this is not without meaning.

And meaning there is in this tale of Pacific ecology and American history. The increased activity of marine megafauna is being attributed to an anchovy boom: _


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Good article!

Nice that it doesnt blame global warming. They cycles are natural. Sardines go down, anchovies go up.

Some predators have to change diet, those that cant die... Its natural and nature. The other have a field day, over reproduce and then, at some stage, starve.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

DEATH TO THE INFIDELS...YOU!!

the only solution to stopping over consumption and pollution is the end of man, you first!


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

> DEATH TO THE INFIDELS...YOU!!
> 
> the only solution to stopping over consumption and pollution is the end of man, you first!


Ease up Muhummad.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

xort said:


> DEATH TO THE INFIDELS...YOU!!
> 
> the only solution to stopping over consumption and pollution is the end of man, you first!





benesailor said:


> Ease up Muhummad.


Yes but there is a strong kernel of truth in that - 7 billion people generate a lot of refuse, as the population continues to grow, so does the refuse.

I have a grandson in diapers and I wholly understand the convenience of disposable diapers but every time we change one, I'm reminded that, globally, many millions of these almost-indestructible things are being disposed of every single day. The mind boggles. Just one element out of a vast array to think about and feel guilty of in the wee hours 

I only have another 20 odd years on this planet (I hope it's not too much longer) so I'll try to stop worrying about it.


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## norsearayder (Dec 19, 2006)

human beings pull 500,000,000 lbs of seafood out of the ocean daily,maybe thats the problen?


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## theonecalledtom (Jan 2, 2008)

Group9 said:


> I remember reading an article by Thor Heyerdahl, about his being shocked at how much more pollution he found in the ocean in 1969 and 1970 voyage on Ra and RaII , than he found in 1947 on Kon-Tiki. Even taking into account the fact that it was different bodies of water, he found a lot more pollution in the second trip.


I finally watched his Kon-Tiki movie recently and was amazed by the quantity of marine life they encountered.

Overall though fishing seems pretty open to abuse as the results are hidden to most peoples eyes.


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