# 2014 Catalina 445 vs 1998 Oyster 45



## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

I was looking at boats last night and it seems to me getting a 2014 Catalina 445 brand new for base price of $260k with a real price of $320k out the door with all the goodies vs a used 1998 Oyster 45 at a cost of $332K with probably issues down the road and retrofits of new equipment soon to come, etc. 

Question is why is there such a disparity in price... why would I want to buy the Oyster? Why not the brand new Catalina for a similar price? What features of the Oyster command such a price for such an older boat, fiberglass and wood is the same on each boat or merely so, but the interior of Catalina would be today's look and not the late 1990's look... I like the Catalina's interior and moving in that direction, not saying I wanted an Oyster... just looking at some comparisons... as I get older I want less equipment breakdowns/failures while cruising... the newer sailboats seem to fit that function.


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

I own a 2014 Catalina 445. If you have any questions email me.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Melrna said:


> I own a 2014 Catalina 445. If you have any questions email me.


I will PM you this weekend if that is ok...

I thought I read here you bought a 445... how do you like it so far and what is not to like on a brand new boat... my wife and I are looking to get our next boat and the Catalinas seem to be a great value but I only know one person who bought a Cat 36 foot up in Everett and while it was roomy not as much creature comforts for 5-6 adults but it did sail beautifully, my friend who owned her christened the boat on my daughters birthday back in 1990 so it was a time back and models today have much nicer appointments... did yours have AC and water maker as standard or were they options?

Thanks...


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

There is an enormous difference between the two manufacturers beyond accommodations and number of berths. One is a coastal cruiser and the other is a world cruiser. One is a Chevy, the other is a Bentley. One has worldwide customer service, the other has your local dealer.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

I assume the Catalina is the Chevy? But both cars (boats) will be able to travel the same roads (oceans)... I don't plan on sailing across the Atlantic or Pacific (maybe the Fiji's, are we saying the Cat 445 is not blue water capable?) but for the most part it's the price difference of an older boat to the newer boat... especially since the newer boat has less breakdown chance (all things equal). I guess I'll find out soon.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

guitarguy56 said:


> I assume the Catalina is the Chevy? But both cars (boats) will be able to travel the same roads (oceans)... I don't plan on sailing across the Atlantic or Pacific (maybe the Fiji's, are we saying the Cat 445 is not blue water capable?) but for the most part it's the price difference of an older boat to the newer boat... especially since the newer boat has less breakdown chance (all things equal). I guess I'll find out soon.


I don't think all things are equal, that is the point. The market determines the price of the Oyster, keep in mind a new replacement for the Oyster would be in the $1.4 million range. They are just very different boats. Try looking at the systems and the level of finish in more hidden places.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

Not equal at all. Take a careful look at Oyster. A boat is not a boat is not a boat. 

I deliberately didn't identify which boat was which. 

BTW. I like Catalinas, my family owned 3 and I worked for 2 dealers. They are nice boats. But an Oyster will take your breath away.... So will the price tag.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Agree... details are details... the boat I was looking at for comparison was this one:

1998 Oyster 45 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

When compared to:

2014 Catalina 445 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I understand the build quality is Rolls Royce over an American made car... my point is I'm no Rolls Royce driver... the Catalina would be fine or any other make of boat in this category of price/quality.

I guess talking to Melrna later will confirm quality differences or what she would have liked better after taking keys to the boat.

I was considering why such a huge difference in the used boat over a new boat, I guess the make/name of the boat means something in the end, to me it doesn't in the long haul... after 20 years or so of cruising it's just passed on to heirs or sold.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

I went from a Chrysler Cirrus to a BMW 3-series about 15 years ago (pre-kids!). At their hearts, they were both cars of approximately the same size with approximately the same horsepower. And, when I owned the BMW for a few weeks, I realized that the BMW really wasn't light-years away from the Chrysler; it was mostly a lot of little things that separated the two. Like a careful weight analysis of where the battery bank should go to get an even 50/50 weight distribution. A 60/40 split back seat so I didn't have to drop the entire back when I carried big stuff. A beefier, better tuned transmission. The ability to manually shift the "automatic" transmission when I wanted to. One-touch windows that meant that as I pulled into/away from the toll booth (a 2x a day thing for me) both hands could be on the wheel - advantageous in bad weather. Rain sensing windshield wipers and automatic lights. And then there was the fit and finish. After 5 years with the BMW, the interior still looked practically new. The wood veneer still was glossy, the materials were all still in good shape. 5 years in with the Cirrus and stuff was peeling off, doors were out of alignment, etc.

I think this is analogous to the Oyster and the Catalina. I want to be clear, I liked my Cirrus and I liked my Catalina. But I'd bet that there are a lot of little things that went into the Oyster that, especially when you are first aboard, you just won't even realize are there. Things that took time to do, took extra thought, or required extra expense (like stronger equipment).

Also, you have to realize that even a brand new Catalina is going to have issues. Hell, a brand new Oyster is going to have issues. And once the new Catalina is 3-4 years old, you're basically back in the same maintenance/routine as with the Oyster. Yes, you may have bought yourself some time, but unless you're going to sell again in a few years, realistically I think you're not gaining much.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Sorry, I was writing my previous post as you posted yours. In the end, the decision is yours, and I envy the fact that you're in the position to "have" to make such a difficult choice.


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## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

The difference between the boats is in their displacements: 35,000 vs 20,800. The Oyster is 68% heavier than the Catalina. You can be sure most of this weight difference is structural. Guess which one gets beat up less when mother nature gets really nasty. You don't have to go to sea to run into mother nature's furry. She has been known to come all the way ashore on occasion. And when she does, she stacks up boats like cord wood. Now guess which one of those boats get beat up the most.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

It very much depends on what you want to do with the boat. The Catalina can cross an ocean, but the Oyster is routinely used for such trips. There was even an Oyster around the world rally passing through Cape Town when we there. It is like comparing two things that are just so different. If I was in that part of the market financially I would not be considering either of these, more likely I would look at Amel and Little Harbor, but at least a comparison of these two with Oyster makes sense since they similar in quality and designed purpose.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

The construction of an Oyster is a much more robust then a Catalina. If the boats were side by side the differences would be quite obvious by simply looking at the gear, rigging, construction details,,, 

That said a Catalina is a fine boat for it's intended purpose and not having to re-rig or repower or any of the other myriad of jobs required on a 15 year old boat are attractive to many, especially if the intended use doesn't demand the robustness of an Oyster.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Pretty well all that is worth saying has been said. I suggest you are realistic about how you intend to use the boat. If it is for local coastal cruising, the Catalina is an excellent boat - as you know, you get a lot of boat for the money.

If I was looking at offshore cruising, I would go to the Oyster. Yes, Catalinas can be taken offshore, but if things got really nasty, I would prefer to be in the Oyster.

What I have seen is people who buy an Oyster, never take her offshore, just using her for local cruising. Sure you can do that but she is heavy and so will be relatively slow, and possibly more complex than necessary. Many people who buy bluewater boats and use them for local cruising aren't happy - they tend to be heavier and less spacious.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

guitarguy56 said:


> Question is why is there such a disparity in price... why would I want to buy the Oyster?


Snob appear of course. Not saying the Oyster isn't a nicer boat than the Catalina, but ...............

Even better find a used 445!


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

jimgo said:


> I went from a Chrysler Cirrus to a BMW 3-series about 15 years ago (pre-kids!). At their hearts, they were both cars of approximately the same size with approximately the same horsepower. And, when I owned the BMW for a few weeks, I realized that the BMW really wasn't light-years away from the Chrysler; it was mostly a lot of little things that separated the two. Like a careful weight analysis of where the battery bank should go to get an even 50/50 weight distribution. A 60/40 split back seat so I didn't have to drop the entire back when I carried big stuff. A beefier, better tuned transmission. The ability to manually shift the "automatic" transmission when I wanted to. One-touch windows that meant that as I pulled into/away from the toll booth (a 2x a day thing for me) both hands could be on the wheel - advantageous in bad weather. Rain sensing windshield wipers and automatic lights. And then there was the fit and finish. After 5 years with the BMW, the interior still looked practically new. The wood veneer still was glossy, the materials were all still in good shape. 5 years in with the Cirrus and stuff was peeling off, doors were out of alignment, etc.
> 
> I think this is analogous to the Oyster and the Catalina. I want to be clear, I liked my Cirrus and I liked my Catalina. But I'd bet that there are a lot of little things that went into the Oyster that, especially when you are first aboard, you just won't even realize are there. Things that took time to do, took extra thought, or required extra expense (like stronger equipment).
> 
> Also, you have to realize that even a brand new Catalina is going to have issues. Hell, a brand new Oyster is going to have issues. And once the new Catalina is 3-4 years old, you're basically back in the same maintenance/routine as with the Oyster. Yes, you may have bought yourself some time, but unless you're going to sell again in a few years, realistically I think you're not gaining much.


Agree... I've had my share of BMW's, Volvo's, Corvettes, and even a Ferrari (still belong to the Ferrari forum and active member), in the end I have my 'working' vehicles and my two Fiat Spyders (they make up for the Ferrari )... in the end I'd rather not drive any 'luxury' vehicles ever again, the cars I have now are a Jeep Cherokee, Nissan Pathfinder/Xterra which is what my wife drives... the neighborhood I live in is 'doctors, lawyers, business owners, etc.' so well to do and all I see are the BMW/Mercedes/Jaguars, etc... and here I am driving my Jeep... :laugher

I understand where you're getting at... but on a new Cat or other boat FMEA (failure modes and effects analysis) would somehow come into play at some point for these components and if it's going to fail at 'x' number of hours hopefully we would have done most of our 'heavy' cruising by then... most of these longevity tests would have been done to many of these components insuring the design meets a certain use before failure... I hope this is part of the engineering behind some of these products.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

So, how long do you plan to "heavy cruise"? As I said, you've probably got 3-5 years before the Catalina really slips into maintenance mode. (Again, I'm not meaning to pick on Catalina, I think the same will be true for any new boat). If you're going to maintain her well during that time and then move back ashore when you're done, or move onto something more suited to your intended lifestyle at that point, then the Catalina may make perfect sense. Especially if you're mostly coastal cruising. The comment above by Paul323 is very well made - you need to pick the boat that will meet your intended use.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

paul323 said:


> Pretty well all that is worth saying has been said. I suggest you are realistic about how you intend to use the boat. If it is for local coastal cruising, the Catalina is an excellent boat - as you know, you get a lot of boat for the money.
> 
> If I was looking at offshore cruising, I would go to the Oyster. Yes, Catalinas can be taken offshore, but if things got really nasty, I would prefer to be in the Oyster.
> 
> What I have seen is people who buy an Oyster, never take her offshore, just using her for local cruising. Sure you can do that but she is heavy and so will be relatively slow, and possibly more complex than necessary. Many people who buy bluewater boats and use them for local cruising aren't happy - they tend to be heavier and less spacious.


I don't plan on many cross ocean voyages and plan mainly the Caribbean... maybe South America by way of coastal Gulf cruising... My mother lives in Puerto Rico currently and we have waterfront property there... getting the boat there would be a routine voyage on many occasions and my family and friends would be on the boat... having a larger boat and amenities on the boat (A/C, more than one head, enclosed shower, etc.) would help much in that area...

I have by the end of the year to make a choice before committing the funds so I'll be looking at boats more detailed and going to the Miami boat show next year... The Palm Beach boat show is coming up next week... not sure I'll be able to attend that one since it's in a couple of days, March 20th -23'rd... looks like their venue is more powerboats, yachts and less sailboats.

My parent in-laws have the same 'land yacht' issues... they have the Class A motorhome and when compared to other motorhomes there is a difference... but for me I don't see it... to me the build quality looks no different... it would have to be a magnitude difference to see any benefit.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

findrichard said:


> The difference between the boats is in their displacements: 35,000 vs 20,800. The Oyster is 68% heavier than the Catalina. You can be sure most of this weight difference is structural. Guess which one gets beat up less when mother nature gets really nasty. You don't have to go to sea to run into mother nature's furry. She has been known to come all the way ashore on occasion. And when she does, she stacks up boats like cord wood. Now guess which one of those boats get beat up the most.


Looking at the construction between the two:

Catalina 445:

Construction
•One-Piece Fiberglass Hull with End Grain Balsa Core Sandwich Construction Above the Waterline, and a Vinylester Integral Barrier to Resist Osmosis Blistering
•One-Piece Fiberglass Deck with End Grain Balsa Core and Molded-In Diamond Pattern Non-Skid Surfaces Finished in Two-Tone White and Grey
•One-Piece Fiberglass Deck Liner Finished in Non-Glare Texture
•One-Piece Molded Fiberglass Structured Grid
•One-Piece Molded Fiberglass Hull Liner with Satin Finish
•Lead Fin Keel with 316 Stainless Steel Attaching Bolts
•Five Year Gel Coat Blister Protection
•Five Year Hull Structure Warranty

Oyster 45:

CONSTRUCTION

Hull
Grp hull is laid up single skin with structural stringers and floors to lloyds approved design specification. hull colour white with cove line and double boot top lines in standard oyster blue.
The stern design incorporates a bathing platform trimmed with teak slats and folding stainless steel bathing ladder. stainless steel steps for access to the stern deck.
Keel
High performance bulb (hpb) external lead keel.
Rudder
Fully protected skeg-hung rudder.
Deck
Deck structure moulded in grp with balsa core. sidedecks, cockpit seats, sole and helmsman's seat are all
Trimmed with laid teak, which has been professionally serviced by oyster agents, antigua rigging, in 2012. oyster deck saloon profile with 'eyebrow' styling. coachroof repainted with non-skid interdeck, 2009.
Perforated aluminium alloy toerail. alloy mooring and cockpit cleats. two additional cleats and fairleads on stern, 2006. bow fairleads upgraded, 2009. stainless steel pulpit, pushpit, and gateway midship stanchions. gate to pushpit. stainless steel grabrails atop deck saloon. liferaft stowage built into pushpit. stern quarter pushpit seats in teak and stainless steel. foredeck full-width stowage locker with lewmar ocean 60 hatch. gas locker for 2 bottles and spare regulator.

Much of that weight may be structural and much might not be... among the hide away electrically operated hatches to hide TV screens and other non essential items I really could care less... I don't watch much TV and any weight added would be a digital piano but we're talking 200 lbs at the most and Catalina may work with me on having a special area for the piano and reinforcements on the floor... I've seen the videos of the Oyster and while a beautiful boat in many ways much of the gadgets I saw are similar to my in-laws motorhome... while it might be useful for the privileged to spend money this way I have lived and will always live (currently) by a lessor means, not so much to impress others. With that said I don't think an Oyster is in my plans... just wanted some input on the cost differences 'used vs new'... that 5 year hull structure warranty sure sounds nice... wonder if it could be extended.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Here is Melissa's original post about her 445:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/101286-our-new-boat.html

Post #25 goes into some details.

From a guest's POV, John and I spent a night on her boat and it was very, very comfortable. Haven't had an opportunity to sail with her yet. But hope to.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

there is also another thing you might consider...
http://www.worldcruising.com/conten.../ARC2013 Results Cruising by Class 211213.pdf
ARC results in the cruising devision by class...
in the first class 5 oysters in the top 12...
a lot of oysters to follow, even winning her class...

and no catalina...


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

Comparing sailboats to cars is way of base. Those that have worked on BMW, Ferrari's, Masseratis.... KNOW that they are junk. (I have)They HANDLE and drive awesome. Power out the wazoo. If you ask a mechanic what the most DEPENABLE car is, honestly, it is a toyota.......A cheap car. Or buy a Land Cruiser (toyota)like the shieks drive.

If you want to compare sailboats to something; compare them to furniture. The oyster is a piece of Thomas Moser, Solid Wood Furniture Crafted by Hand to Last a Lifetime : Thos. Moser , But better.
Custom handcrafted.
A oyster is finished to a high quality where you CAN'T see. Sturdy, hand quality that you can pass onto your kids for a long time to come. The quality on a oyster permeates thru the whole boat. It's not just the aesthetics. Thought goes into every piece. The finishes are applied accurately and precisely to last. When i talked to the Oyster rep at the annapolis boatshow they impress on you the value and the thought that goes into each piece of the boat. They travel to the forest and hand select each piece of wood! The hand finish applied is designed to last and be durable. 
The hull and components are expertly built by extremely capable craftsmen THAT KNOW their job. Trained Artists. An oyster is a Yacht.

The Catalina.....well, it;s a a nice boat. It's just a BOAT. Your just buying a piece of...........Ashley Furniture Home


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

No matter which boat the OP's looking at his selection will definitely be outside the average Good Old Boat -


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

benesailor said:


> If you want to compare sailboats to something; compare them to furniture. The oyster is a piece of Thomas Moser, Solid Wood Furniture Crafted by Hand to Last a Lifetime : Thos. Moser , But better.
> Custom handcrafted.
> A oyster is finished to a high quality where you CAN'T see. Sturdy, hand quality that you can pass onto your kids for a long time to come. The quality on a oyster permeates thru the whole boat. It's not just the aesthetics. Thought goes into every piece. The finishes are applied accurately and precisely to last. When i talked to the Oyster rep at the annapolis boatshow they impress on you the value and the thought that goes into each piece of the boat. They travel to the forest and hand select each piece of wood! The hand finish applied is designed to last and be durable.
> The hull and components are expertly built by extremely capable craftsmen THAT KNOW their job. Trained Artists. An oyster is a Yacht.
> ...


Why I now drive a Jeep... Agree like high quality furniture... most of my stuff at home is Ethan Allen/Thomasville as we at the time (naive young homeowners) thought this was the best... eventually we learned better at choosing higher quality items... but it comes with limits and some thought to how one uses it.

I just spent 2 hours looking at the Oyster website again and while they have an impressive interior par none... I just don't see the cost of this high quality on a sailboat... I'm not looking for a yacht... if I was I would buy a powerboat yacht and dispense the 'sailing' portion of cruising... I definitely don't see the Catalina in the 'Ashley Furniture' category and I'm hoping Melrna will clear that up... I've read her entire thread on her purchase several times in the past couple of weeks and when it was delivered last year looking for something that tells me she's not happy... I don't see it or read it. It may take some time to sort out which 40-45 footer I finally put the peg on but if I had to buy a new Oyster 45 at the cost of $1 Mil or more then I think I'll be happy with the Cat 445. 

As many others who purchased a new boat it will be exciting as well as nerve wrecking going through the process.

I surely don't want to call it the 'yacht'... thought we had this discussion in an earlier thread... it's a 'sailing vessel'... :laugher


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

You should get the Catalina.


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## foamy (Nov 26, 2012)

I had a used 1980s Catalina 38, probably the best Catalina built, especially for sailing. Sold it for about 15k less than I bought it for, not counting the thousands I put into it over 13 years. Bought a 1999 Tartan 3800 some time ago. The build finish, live-ability underway or long term cruising, equipment, overall quality, etc. was amazing, and the Tartan is no Oyster.

The point being is that Catalinas are good boats for what they are, but if you have any passage making or cruising experience, you will notice their short comings. Good weekend boats. Oysters are another story.

But the big thing to think about is resale value (you will sell it someday). You will take a big beating on the depreciation on the new Catalina in the first five or so years and never recoup any of it. Just look at the resale numbers on Catalinas that are a few years old. The Oyster you will probably sell for close to what you paid for it in a few years if you maintain it.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

guitarguy56 said:


> ......
> I surely don't want to call it the 'yacht'...


Hmmmm... if you're even LOOKING at an Oyster, somewhere deep down you _do _want to call it a 'Yacht'....


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

If you can't tell the difference, buy the Catalina.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Here's a completely unfair comment/admission/confession that shows how emotional boating decisions can be.

Many years ago, I'm at a boat show with my buddy who just sold his company and could buy anything at the show. We are dressed in jeans and t shirts. We went on a Oyster, they dealer ignored our questions. Didn't look like he could afford it I guess. Impacted my view of the company going forward. I'm sure this is completely unfair, one dealer doesn't make a brand, and I've talked with buyers who have had great experiences.

BTW/my buddy bought a Beneteau, sailed in the Med, was very happy with it for years. 

If I could get by my emotional block, I'd probably buy and then refit the older Oyster for your mission.

Yea, I admit I'm a bit crazy, if you own a boat, you're not entirely rationale either


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

> Many years ago, I'm at a boat show with my buddy who just sold his company and could buy anything at the show. We are dressed in jeans and t shirts. We went on a Oyster, they dealer ignored our questions. Didn't look like he could afford it I guess. Impacted my view of the company going forward. I'm sure this is completely unfair, one dealer doesn't make a brand, and I've talked with buyers who have had great experiences.


This can happen anywhere.

It's funny what happens at annapolis when they find out you own a 40' boat. The vultures come out.

I found the Swan reps the most pretentious a**es. Love Swans though. The oyster reps last year were fantastic.

Boatowners are the worst. Couple of years ago i parked amongst a bunch of new 50' Jeanneaus; these people totally ignored me. Wouldn't even acknowleadge me. Then again they may have been forewarned that i was an A$$.


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

We are coastal cruisers. Frankly, more weekend and vacation sailors. We are on the boat & sailing every weekend, except one, from the end of March to mid November.

But we won't ever circumnavigate.

The quality of newer Catalinas and Beneteaus is quite good. Yes, the cabinetry is pressboard and laminate, but the design, hardware and systems are far better than 15 years ago. I speak from personal experience.

For me, I would definitely go with the new 445. Other than the commissioning debugging (I've owned 4 new sailboats), you should expect many years of almost trouble free sailing on a nicely designed, nicely equipped, comfortable boat that is able to handle bad weather quite well.

In a storm in the mid Atlantic or as a Walter Mitty dock queen, the Oyster would be better.

It just depends which kind of sailor you are. Really.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

In my experience the dealer is everything on most any machine and it is not like oyster is going to fly somebody in at this point in its life 

Catalina does a great job of long term support and i am sure oyster does also JUST at a very different price level 

To be honest using the car example while i have had a GM problem or three they have really gone out of there way to resolve them over a long period of time on many cars

I am pretty sure the routine service costs of many high end cars exceed my cars purchase price


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Build quality aside, I think the main cabin layout of the Catalina provides a better environment for the cook - not relegated to a passageway away from the hungry crowd and you won't disturb the food preparation to get to the aft cabin. 
How important is that to you? 
If I were to spend $350K for a sailboat I would certainly take a factory tour and see how they build the hidden parts - the parts that are really hard to repair when they fail.
I would not spend a fortune for fine furniture on a sailboat. It will only get scratched and marred over time. Given the environment I live in, I'm very happy I bought one of those Clorox bottles. Even though I love the look of fine wood furnishings I was amazed at how poorly they hold up in a humid, salt air environment. I can take a Clorox spray bottle and kill the mildew and funk.
Finally, I would look at everything!
John


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capecodda said:


> Here's a completely unfair comment/admission/confession that shows how emotional boating decisions can be.
> 
> Many years ago, I'm at a boat show with my buddy who just sold his company and could buy anything at the show. We are dressed in jeans and t shirts. We went on a Oyster, they dealer ignored our questions. Didn't look like he could afford it I guess. Impacted my view of the company going forward. I'm sure this is completely unfair, one dealer doesn't make a brand, and I've talked with buyers who have had great experiences.


Your friend should have taken the opportunity to make that dealer squirm a bit... A good way to do that, would have been to have politely inquired about the possibility of getting a tour of the Oyster 'factory'... 

Most folks don't seem to realize, at this point Oyster has become more of a 'Marketing' company, rather than a pure boatbuilder in the traditional sense... Many might be surprised how many of their builds are outsourced to independent contractors/other builders, with the Oyster 'brand' slapped on at the end...

Certainly, they have a big facility in England where many of their boats are built, and the bulk of their warranty/customer support work is carried out... But the 53 is built in New Zealand, for example, and some of their new largest models are being built in Turkey... So, it might require a bit of investigation, to find out exactly who might have built your new Oyster... 

Make no mistake, that doesn't diminish their quality in any way, but I really believe their major success has been in their incredibly successful marketing of the Oyster _BRAND_, more than anything else. Much the same has how Swan reinvented itself to a certain degree, after the company was bought by Ferragamo... Oyster is unquestionably a superb line of yachts, but perhaps on closer inspection, not necessarily _THAT_ much superior to anything else out there...

A couple of years ago at the Annapolis show, I did a comparison after a close inspection of the stainless rail work on the Oyster 60-something, and the Chinese-built Outbound 46... The welds on the Outbound were all but invisible, beautifully finished and essentially flawless... On the Oyster, however, while they were certainly nicely done, they were not nearly as perfect, or as immaculately finished, to my eye...

Of course, one has to concede the possibility that after a few years of hard use down the road, those rails out of China may be showing a bit more rust, or whatever... 'Quality' in boatbuilding can often be a moving target, and hard to define at a glance...

Hopefully, our own Outbound will keep us posted...


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

I looked at the the link that GG provided for the used Oyster and saw a magnificent sailing vessel. The deal breaker for me and probably for anyone intending to sail in North America would be the electrical system. It's European 220 volts 50 hertz.

Another point is that there may be duty on any boat not for sale in USA.

There are Oysters made with N.A. voltage.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

> A couple of years ago at the Annapolis show, I did a comparison after a close inspection of the stainless rail work on the Oyster 60-something, and the Chinese-built Outbound 46... The welds on the Outbound were all but invisible, beautifully finished and essentially flawless... On the Oyster, however, while they were certainly nicely done, they were not nearly as perfect, or as immaculately finished, to my eye...


I agree. For the money the Outbound is stunning. The chinese definitely have the eye for detail. Which they have had for years. The difference would be if you x-rayed the welds. Then again; does it matter? 
A lot has to do with the "Quality Assurance" dept. of the boat builder.

Comparing a Oyster and Catalina; sorry, that's Apples and oranges.

I think for any buyer in that price range a good production boat is a lot less hassle during ownership. 
Guitarguy, go for a Catalina 445. Which you all ready made up your mind for anyway.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

The construction of the Catalina is much different then the construction of the Oyster. The Cat is a pan boat with a shoebox hull to deck flange. This construction technique is very efficient for the builder but any structural repairs are difficult.

The Oyster is stick built with an inward turned flange, this produces a much stronger structure but as you may have guessed it is an expensive way to build a boat. A stick built boat is easier to repair and also allows the builder the freedom to change the interior to customer requests.

Is one construction technique better then another for the customer? No
Is one construction technique stronger then the other? Yes, the Oyster is a much stronger boat then the Catalina.
Is the Catalina strong enough for its intended use? Yes and Catalina sells lots of them.

There is no right or wrong boat, there is only customer preference.



ccriders said:


> Build quality aside, I think the main cabin layout of the Catalina provides a better environment for the cook - not relegated to a passageway away from the hungry crowd and you won't disturb the food preparation to get to the aft cabin.
> How important is that to you?
> If I were to spend $350K for a sailboat I would certainly take a factory tour and see how they build the hidden parts - the parts that are really hard to repair when they fail.
> I would not spend a fortune for fine furniture on a sailboat. It will only get scratched and marred over time. Given the environment I live in, I'm very happy I bought one of those Clorox bottles. Even though I love the look of fine wood furnishings I was amazed at how poorly they hold up in a humid, salt air environment. I can take a Clorox spray bottle and kill the mildew and funk.
> ...


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

After 4 pages I guess I should chime in here a little. First it took me 5 years to decide on my cruising boat within my budget. I had a long list of must haves on the boat. In the end, when I was ready to buy, Catalina 445 came out on top. 
An Oyster, Southerly and Malo were on the top of my list. But boat availability for a used boat were not there. I could not afford a new one. 
Like other posters have said comparing an Oyster to a Catalina,are not in the same league no matter what your sailing circumstances will be. Oysters are built better. 
Now for my Catalina 445, I have no problem taking this boat around the world. I know how this boat is built. It is solid, with 5 piece hull construction vs only 3 on most production boats. The furniture liner is not part of the structure grid like on all the other production boats; it is additional too and tabbed in. So the hull is structurally solid with support grid, ribs and stringers and the furniture liner all tabbed in. Every piece of deck hardware has 1/4" SS backing plates. The other production boat have few to none. I have a video of this. 
So for every boat buyer out there, there is a boat out there that will talked to them and bound. We sailors are emotional about our boats, right, wrong or indifferent. When I go looking at a boat, my criteria will be different than the next person. I am a technical and common sense person. I know I am an unusual boat person because every boat broker on the east coast has told me. I can tear apart a boat with the best of them and tell you what works and doesn't. Furthermore, what is boat fluff/marketing gimmicks.
While we am cutting our teeth on our new boat, I have no regrets. Next month, we are going to bring our new sled up to New Bern, NC for the final outfitting before we chase sunsets this fall. We hope to do it in less than 3 days from GA. We have already done some sailing in pretty nasty weather on the boat (see Smackdaddys thread on BFS sailing to see our Xmas sail) so I know the boat can handle it.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and yes the Oyster is a well made yacht with worldwide service support, yes it will be the best boat anyone can possibly get... but it's not for me... probably not for many here unless you're financially well off and can afford such a boat. I am not indicating I'll get a Cat 445 or even a Catalina at all... just looking at what to get and what is out there within this price range.

My financial advisor is of course upset at my plans... but I told him sailboats are going up in price each year (who would have guessed a 45 Catalina would be selling for $350K ten years ago?)... since home/property values are not going up anymore as they should be and some of us have lost equity on these properties, I have several properties in Savannah/Florida I may unload to buy the next boat... it goes against the grain yes I've been told... but if I wait 5, 10 years to buy the boat before we sail into the sunset... the prices of the same Cat 445 (for instance) may be $500K... so as the prices of boats increase the prices of homes/property currently may not... we may never get to real estate prices and ballooning in price as was back in the '80's, '90's, and early 2000's... 2006-2008 killed the real estate markets...

Anyhow the plan is to sell the properties and buy the boat outright now until I sell my business and quit altogether and move onto the boat (I will of course keep my present home in Savannah)... if the properties don't sell for whatever the next sailboat will cost we have other sources of funds to kick in... the point is to buy now at these prices... I will definitely be going to the Keys to see the boats with the wifey this Summer to look at the facilities and get to see hopefully the 445 up close.

Melissa... I thought you'd chime in here soon enough after hearing all the talk on the 445... I know you're as happy as any camper would be and hope to hear from you soon. The 445 seems to be a well built boat and I'm sure you'll enjoy this boat at least a decade before maintenance issues start showing up.

Only one Oyster on the East Coast is currently for sale I would even look at and it's priced at $570K , would be nice to see that one just to see the detail everyone marvels at.

David Walters Yachts

In all fairness it's best to wait to see the Catalina 445 and others before making any decisions... there are just so many boats to look at and weeding them out is really time consuming.... just looked at some Swans... too sleek for me but beautiful interiors same as the Oysters.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'd take your budget and search for similar boats up to, say, 5 yrs old and see what's available. Already taken the deprec hit, likely to have the addons you may want anyhow...


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## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

Catalina - I have owned two of them a 22 and a 25. Both were fun lake boats. If I had plans to cross the Gulf Stream again (which I do) I would not select a coastal cruiser for the task. Have you read the post here about the folks who decided they would sail from CA to Hawaii in a Catalina 27? (I know, can't happen to me.) But the strongest argument against a new Catalina vs an older quality blue water boat has already been stated - depreciation. The Oyster is already depreciated over 60% of its purchase price. The Catalina will do the same in 3-4 years. In ten years I would suspect the Oyster will carry more value than the Catalina. Maybe you won the lottery, or easy come easy go is your lifestyle. For me I would be looking to preserve as much of my hard earned capital as I could. Besides what regrets could come out of surrounding yourself with the elegance of the Oyster's interior? Boy I sure do miss all that laminate interior of that Catalina.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Surprisingly little else available in your range/size 2010 or newer on YW..

2010 (Sail) Boats For Sale


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Dunno how I missed seeing this thread.


Its a very interesting choice. Oysters have a far better reputation, but its hitting up 20 years old when you have only owned it a coupla years. 

I have seen plenty of Catalinas in my circumnavigation so theres no problem about them doing it.

The Oyster can be expensive because everyone see's you coming and are reaching for your wallet.

I would love to have a new boat. Built and optioned the way you want it, seen and inspected during the build, watched it launched, christened it, fitted it and provisioned it, turned the engine on for the first time... I think that would be very very exciting stuff.

I think your pride of ownership on a new boat would be higher too. It really would be a dream come true.

But the older boat could be a nightmare of previous owners over zealousness or incompetence... Note the Oyster has been extensively raced.

Stuff it! I'd go the brand new one 


Mark


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

findrichard said:


> Catalina - I have owned two of them a 22 and a 25. Both were fun lake boats. If I had plans to cross the Gulf Stream again (which I do) I would not select a coastal cruiser for the task. Have you read the post here about the folks who decided they would sail from CA to Hawaii in a Catalina 27? (I know, can't happen to me.) But the strongest argument against a new Catalina vs an older quality blue water boat has already been stated - depreciation. The Oyster is already depreciated over 60% of its purchase price. The Catalina will do the same in 3-4 years. In ten years I would suspect the Oyster will carry more value than the Catalina. Maybe you won the lottery, or easy come easy go is your lifestyle. For me I would be looking to preserve as much of my hard earned capital as I could. Besides what regrets could come out of surrounding yourself with the elegance of the Oyster's interior? Boy I sure do miss all that laminate interior of that Catalina.


Thanks for saying good things on the Cat... but not sure I agree with the depreciation on the Cat 445 in 3-4 years time... I just looked at some 445's with 2011-12 prices that still command the same values as when they were brought... here's one:

2011 Catalina 445 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

This and other indicate they hold their values well. Now that Oyster I had in my comparison lost 2/3's of it's value in 15 years... I don't think the Catalina will hold it's value in 15 years as it was new... of course not... but it will hold just as much value to me and my heirs just the same.

In the end it will be my clear and thorough understanding of the construction of the boat, as an engineer with over 35 years of experience in the aerospace/military field in many facets of manufacturing, systems, and other facets of this discipline I will take a very determined look of all the available materials before me to make a decision on a new boat... any engineer here on Sailnet will make the same assessment... it's what drives us... right?


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Faster said:


> Surprisingly little else available in your range/size 2010 or newer on YW..
> 
> 2010 (Sail) Boats For Sale


Thanks Faster... as can be seen the values of these Cats hold their values... anyway I would like a new boat (like buying a new car) there are certain aspects in knowing you and your wife are the first to sleep in the beds, make food in the galley, etc. Owning a new boat is like commissioning an architect to design and build your home made just for you and only you. We look at it this way. Not being snobbish here as we are neither of those... we're pretty humble in our lifestyles if you knew our family history you would never have guessed it.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Dunno how I missed seeing this thread.
> 
> Its a very interesting choice. Oysters have a far better reputation, but its hitting up 20 years old when you have only owned it a coupla years.
> 
> ...


Mark... I think you hit the nail on the head... it's just that... knowing we are the first to step into a new boat... we've been talking ever since my wife and I sailed our US-25 out in Puget Sound... ever since we've seen the Catalina 445 pass by us when we fell in love with the boat... if the owners would have let us on the boat... that would be all it took, we would be sailing one right now.

We also need to insure Catalina is willing to make changes to the interior to accommodate certain items into the boat otherwise we may need to look at other boat builders willing to make these changes.

We are anxious to take the first step in looking what it takes and how long it takes in the process for delivery and commissioning.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

The one area that you might care to review with the factory, if you go with the 445, is the compression post structure. This has been a problem area for many Catalinas, one 42 at our club had the structure fail and the deck damage was significant. Maybe ask if its warranted for life and if the warranty includes any damage to the deck or rigging? Just a thought.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

findrichard said:


> ...But the strongest argument against a new Catalina vs an older quality blue water boat has already been stated - depreciation. The Oyster is already depreciated over 60% of its purchase price. The Catalina will do the same in 3-4 years. In ten years I would suspect the Oyster will carry more value than the Catalina...


I would like you to show actual facts to back up your claimed depreciation of Catalinas.

In 2010 I was shopping for used Catalinas in the 25-36' range, and I did extensive research on the actual selling prices of these boats over the period 2007-2010. Older boats were less expensive, but the older boats also had a lower purchase price at the time of manufacture. In fact, virtually all the boats were selling for exactly the prices that they had sold for when new. In other words, this notion that a Catalina would ever depreciate over 60% of its purchase price appears to be a fallacy. Obviously a totally neglected boat will depreciate to $0 or less in a few decades, but well maintained Catalinas definitely hold their value in the research that I did.

Any "depreciation" comes from the sunk costs of adding accessories and doing normal repair and maintenance. That does not increase the selling prices - it is needed to maintain the market value at the boat's original purchase price. And a 44' boat is going to have A LOT of maintenance expense, even when it's brand new. So it will feel like depreciation to the owner.

I would love for you to prove me wrong. If you can go find a late '90 or early '00 Catalina in the 32-36' size range in sail-away condition that has depreciated by 60%, or even 30% from its original purchase price at its date of manufacture, please point it out to me.

As for the OP's original topic, he's comparing apples to oranges. He needs to decide what kind of sailing he wants to do and buy the boat that's designed for that type of sailing. Sounds like new is very important to him, so he's likely to go with a production boat.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Having a look at the photos in the Oyster it looks like in needs plenty of new electronics. Screens are small and old. Rigging too. After racing is it ready for a change? Its not day racing but trans atlantic. 

The Oyster is the better boat, no doubt, but age does play a big part. 16 years as a liveaboard in salt water. I recking everything may be up for upgrading.

A good careful look would be necessary.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

OK... another boat that caught my eye this weekend is the Southerly 42RST... great looking boat and blue water capable... what I love about it is the small draft with centerboard up 2'-9"... this is an excellent boat for South Florida and other points in between...

Southerly 42RST - Introduction

I like the elevated salon area... the layout is really nice and I imagine the woodwork is outstanding... I'll have to contact Southerly regarding the cabin layout and options on rearrangement.

As I understand the Southerly 49 is what Distant Shores' Paul and Sheryl Shard have as their second boat on the show and it's a beauty as well... they also have that one beached on some islands. Something to look at closely.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

guitarguy56 said:


> ...
> 
> As I understand the Southerly 49 is what Distant Shores' Paul and Sheryl Shard have as their second boat on the show and it's a beauty as well... they also have that one beached on some islands. Something to look at closely.


The one on the show that they beached in the Bahamas was their 42. They had it for about a year before they moved up to the 49 (which they also can beach).
When their 42 was for sale it was in my marina yard as the Southerly dealer used to be there. It was my first case of Celebrity Boat Crush. I actually whooped when I saw Distant Shores on the stern. John thought I'd lost my mind.

They had the 42 at Annapolis at the boat show and I boarded it. The interior layout is not my preference, but it is a nice boat. They did the ARC in the 49 and it has a LOT of storage down below.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

DRFerron said:


> The one on the show that they beached in the Bahamas was their 42. They had it for about a year before they moved up to the 49 (which they also can beach).
> When their 42 was for sale it was in my marina yard as the Southerly dealer used to be there. It was my first case of Celebrity Boat Crush. I actually whooped when I saw Distant Shores on the stern. John thought I'd lost my mind.
> 
> They had the 42 at Annapolis at the boat show and I boarded it. The interior layout is not my preference, but it is a nice boat. They did the ARC in the 49 and it has a LOT of storage down below.


Wonderful... someone who got a close look at it... what did you not like about the arrangement... according to the brochure they have two layouts (three if I had my way)... how was the cabinetry and wood? Its has more 'wood' than what I want to see but the wood appearance is light and blends well with the white interior hull/ceilings... the raised salon makes looking out while cruising a nice feature... the 47' is sized nice but wished they had a 45' to compare layouts to the Cat 445.

They air the Distant Shores program on Cottage Life here in Montreal and I get to watch the shows... a pair of great sailors, very humble.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

It has been a couple of years and I don't remember everything but what sticks out is the raised salon. It's not something I'm used to seeing and it seemed odd and for me, stepping up to it and down seemed like a good way for me to loose my footing while under way. On the other hand, it provides a "wall" on which to brace yourself when in the galley.

I don't remember having any issues with the way the wood looked. Some boats have an Ikea-like feel that I don't prefer. I didn't do too much poking around as Sheryl was sitting in the salon and Paul was putzing around doing something or other and I was aware that they lived on the boat. Even though they were there to show it, it felt too much like going to someone's home and opening the dressers drawers, especially since I wasn't in the market for one. If I was, I would have explained that and asked questions as they seemed very approachable.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Shockwave said:


> The one area that you might care to review with the factory, if you go with the 445, is the compression post structure. This has been a problem area for many Catalinas, one 42 at our club had the structure fail and the deck damage was significant. Maybe ask if its warranted for life and if the warranty includes any damage to the deck or rigging? Just a thought.


Catalina made a 42 that didn't have a keel stepped mast? I didn't know that. The mast on mine is keel stepped. There is no compression post to fail.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

DRFerron said:


> It has been a couple of years and I don't remember everything but what sticks out is the raised salon. It's not something I'm used to seeing and it seemed odd and for me, stepping up to it and down seemed like a good way for me to loose my footing while under way. On the other hand, it provides a "wall" on which to brace yourself when in the galley.
> 
> I don't remember having any issues with the way the wood looked. Some boats have an Ikea-like feel that I don't prefer. I didn't do too much poking around as Sheryl was sitting in the salon and Paul was putzing around doing something or other and I was aware that they lived on the boat. Even though they were there to show it, it felt too much like going to someone's home and opening the dressers drawers, especially since I wasn't in the market for one. If I was, I would have explained that and asked questions as they seemed very approachable.


I sort of agree... I may have to think about it as my wife does not have 'sure footing' and is a klutz and not one for going up and down the stairs (her epilepsy medication)... for me I love the raised salon.

Agree with the Ikea observation and is what I saw on many high end yachts and sailboats... but that is what sells these days...

Sheryl and Paul seem to be the type of friends we associate with in our normal lives both at work/home, we have whacked out friends too... we tend to be selective in who we allow in our circle but when we do it's almost like family.


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## welshwind (Feb 27, 2005)

I can't offer anything more on the Oyster vs. Catalina than what has been said here. However, I thought I'd share that we bought a Catalina 445 this past fall (and received wonderful help from Melrna during our deliberations ... Thank you). We haven't sailed it yet as we are Northern sailors and the ice is still three feet thick!!! 

However, we looked at the standard production boats such Jeanneau and Beneteau in the 43-45 range. After we chose the Catalina (it simply met our needs much better), a friend of ours who is a manager (but not sales) for a boat dealer that sells one of the competing production lines shared this with us. Apparently, he was part of a conversation with his sales folks and they all agreed that at this point the 5-Series Catalinas are the best production boats currently available from an overall quality fit, finish, and materials.

That is only a sample size of one, but when competitors in a private moment say things like that, I do tend to pay attention.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I'm kind of in the same boat. We currently have a Catalina 30 that is PERFECT for how we sail now in the Chesapeake. We thought we wanted to stick with Catalina for the Next Boat. Then our goals changed and we think we want to go much farther afield into higher lats. (Yes. I know. All you who have been subjected year after year to my whining about being cold: I GET THE IRONY.) I've been with Melissa along her journey with the 445 so I see that it's built differently, better, whatever. She has shared her ups and downs with the process. I feel like I know the 445 better for her. But our "vs." is a Malo. Better suited for where we want to go? More than likely. But the 445, properly equipped, might also be able to do the trip. I'm more than heavily leaning towards the Malo but haven't totally ruled out a Catalina. Yet, I don't want to buy an unsuitable boat simply because it's what we're used to.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Jeez... if YOU buy a Malo then the pressure's on the rest of we mods to do the same...


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## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

Take 5, I stand corrected - are you a Catalina salesman?

I have owned one centerboard boat a Catalina 22. It was great for skinny water and trailering but I don't think I will own another centerboard boat for two reasons. First, I did not like the humming noise the cable made when the boat was sailing near hull-speed and secondly I did not like the clunk, clunk noise keel made at any anchorage that had a little roll.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Not all centreboards are created equal. Our centreboard (big board - 12' draft with board down) makes no humming noise and does not clunk at anchor. It does clunk a bit if you have it down off the wind in lighter winds - but then you don't have it down then.


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## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

Well that is good to hear Killarney, I just may reconsider them again in my boat search. Have you ever had any maintenance issues with your centerboard?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

We are going to replace the cable (probably with line) and two sheaves that lead the cable to the winch on deck. The latter requires cutting apart the fiberglass housings around the sheaves. I guess it is once every 35 year maintenance.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

findrichard said:


> Take 5, I stand corrected - are you a Catalina salesman?


No, not at all. My challenge to you to find me a 30-60% depreciated Catalina wasn't rhetorical flourish. I really want you to find one so I can buy it. 

Back on-topic, I think I saw that Oyster boat at the Annapolis boat show. Man it was gorgeous, but way too much exterior brightwork to maintain!


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## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

Hold on just one minute there! That Oyster appears to have a roller furling main and unsuitable to even leave the dock.

Geez, all these high boats with roller furling mains are simply going to jam, broach and sink to the bottom of the sea. Get a 27' double-ender with a full batten main and banked on jib. $40,000 will get you a sweet one!

On a serious note, no one actually mentioned draft. It's an issue in many places you'll want to go.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

HeartsContent said:


> Hold on just one minute there! That Oyster appears to have a roller furling main and unsuitable to even leave the dock.
> 
> Geez, all these high boats with roller furling mains are simply going to jam, broach and sink to the bottom of the sea. Get a 27' double-ender with a full batten main and banked on jib. $40,000 will get you a sweet one!
> 
> On a serious note, no one actually mentioned draft. It's an issue in many places you'll want to go.


Looking at the Southerly line of boats which have small drafts perfect for Florida, Bahamas, and the Caribbean... I really do not like double enders. 

No Oysters for me... :laugher


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

TakeFive said:


> ...
> 
> Back on-topic, I think I saw that Oyster boat at the Annapolis boat show. Man it was gorgeous, but way too much exterior brightwork to maintain!


Probably, most Oyster owners pay someone do to those jobs.


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## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

"No, not at all. My challenge to you to find me a 30-60% depreciated Catalina wasn't rhetorical flourish. I really want you to find one so I can buy it." 

Thanks for the offer take5, do I get a finders fee? Never mind, if I find it I am sure you would't want to own it.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

DRFerron said:


> Probably, most Oyster owners pay someone do to those jobs.


I mow my own lawn when I can (when not travelling) therefore boats for me need to be something I can work on myself.

Oyster owners do not mow their own lawns, they have lawn maintenance people or better yet they have hired gardeners that do this work... so yes I agree they pay someone else to do work on their boats... they are upper echelon types and they probably don't frequent these boards.


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## welshwind (Feb 27, 2005)

findrichard said:


> "No, not at all. My challenge to you to find me a 30-60% depreciated Catalina wasn't rhetorical flourish. I really want you to find one so I can buy it."
> 
> Thanks for the offer take5, do I get a finders fee? Never mind, if I find it I am sure you would't want to own it.


I will say that when we were looking for our 445, we did consider used 445s. However, what we were finding (at least for freshwater boats) was that even the 2010 models had not depreciated anywhere near the 30-60% that has been mentioned. We bought our new 445 configured as we wanted it for below the asking price of the used 2010 445s we saw on-line ... and it wasn't that our boat was stripped and theirs was amazingly outfitted. Now, I'm sure through negotiations we probably could have picked up one of the used boats for less ... but not enough less to make it worth our while... certainly no where near the 30% less, much less the 60%.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

findrichard said:


> Well that is good to hear Killarney, I just may reconsider them again in my boat search. Have you ever had any maintenance issues with your centerboard?


Catalina isn't the only manufacturer of centerboard coastal cruisers. If older boats don't scare you, the Oday line of trailer sailers (22, 23, 25) all have centerboards of a completely different design. The Catalina boats are really swing keels, with the boat's ballast in the swinging centerboard. This design requires a cable and winch to hoist the keel up and down; it needs maintenance and can fail, and as someone has noted, the taughtness of the cable can make it "sing" when moving through the water. The Oday design is much simpler: the board is mostly unweighted and is controlled by a single line lead into the cockpit. Much less prone to break, and much easier to maintain and service than the Catalina winch and cable. And the cable doesn't "sing". And because the Oday centerboard is housed in a stub keel, the "clunk, clunk" of the board moving laterally is also much less prevalent than in the Catalina.


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## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

If I had a new Catalina 445 - once aboard I might never go back home! I will feel fortunate enough if I can swing a 30 year old 35' blue water boat and even then once aboard I may never go back home.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

If it does help and you need some information we have been living aboard and sailing our Oyster 45 for the last three years.


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## neilsty (Oct 15, 2009)

i own an oyster 49 and cut my own grass. I previously owned a saber 386 on the Chesapeake and was looking to move up to a larger offshore capable boat with storage and tankage for at least week long cruises. we looked at a lot of boats, what made my wife love the Oyster was the salon layout and the opening front hatches. for me it was the build quality, the storage and tankage. Our boat is 11 years old and has had a few minor issues such as miscellaneous pumps to be replaced - but these are all off the shelf items and wear out on any boat. my biggest expenses were to replace the chart plotters and radar with Furuno but kept the original ray marine sensors. Also put on a new genoa, other add ons were really personal preference items. 

the really great thing about the Oyster is that the more you get into the systems the better you realize the build quality. The other big thing i noticed is that out in heavy weather 40+ knots the boat just keeps going without any creaks or groans. The performance is also good even though it is heavy boat. i keep it in the caribbean so i am sailing in the trades where there is enough wind to get going - it is then outsailing the lighter production boats that just cant handle the winds. Coming from a performance cruiser the saber 386 to the oyster i have not been disappointed. before i bought the oyster i chartered island packets and a hulas - there is no comparison - the Oyster is a great boat, and the company is very responsive to any questions i have. Go with the oyster you won't be disappointed


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

neilsty said:


> i own an oyster 49 and cut my own grass. I previously owned a saber 386 on the Chesapeake and was looking to move up to a larger offshore capable boat with storage and tankage for at least week long cruises. we looked at a lot of boats, what made my wife love the Oyster was the salon layout and the opening front hatches. for me it was the build quality, the storage and tankage. Our boat is 11 years old and has had a few minor issues such as miscellaneous pumps to be replaced - but these are all off the shelf items and wear out on any boat. my biggest expenses were to replace the chart plotters and radar with Furuno but kept the original ray marine sensors. Also put on a new genoa, other add ons were really personal preference items.
> 
> the really great thing about the Oyster is that the more you get into the systems the better you realize the build quality. The other big thing i noticed is that out in heavy weather 40+ knots the boat just keeps going without any creaks or groans. The performance is also good even though it is heavy boat. i keep it in the caribbean so i am sailing in the trades where there is enough wind to get going - it is then outsailing the lighter production boats that just cant handle the winds. Coming from a performance cruiser the saber 386 to the oyster i have not been disappointed. before i bought the oyster i chartered island packets and a hulas - there is no comparison - the Oyster is a great boat, and the company is very responsive to any questions i have. Go with the oyster you won't be disappointed


No doubt the Oysters are a beautiful well built boat and I apologize if I came across rude... I really meant most owners of these boats are very well to do at least compared to me... I imagine a Palm Beach home with huge expanse of green grass around a veranda with the Oyster on it's fancy slip awaiting the captain with champagne glass pointing up to the sky saying 'Let's Sail'... that is what I see with the Oysters, Swans, Hinckleys, etc. It's what I was used to seeing in Palm Beach/Lake Worth... I definitely do not want to associate with that anymore.

Maybe I'll come across an Oyster in my search for the right boat, maybe get an opportunity to see first hand the quality and durability of these yachts and come off with a different interpretation than what is built up in my mind... surely the photos show me less than I see, I need to see more?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Maybe I've something to contribute to this debate. Three years ago we went Malo. I guess they could be legitimately bundled in with Oysters in terms of build quality, seaworthiness etc. Our alternatives were probably things like Catalina , Beneteau, Juneau and the like. We went Malo cos we had thought by now we would be well and truly out there. Facts of life got in the way and here I am still running my business. Less than gruntled about that but there you go, its a pretty common tale. 

Now lets for the moment presume we don't ever make it then quite frankly something like a e.g. Beneteau 425 Oceanis would have made a hell of a lot more sense than our Malo and would have saved us around AUD$100.000. Reality is we have more boat than we really need. Nonetheless we use the Malo almost weekly, get away for a couple of mini cruises each year and her build quality still astounds me. 

Translate that to the Catalina v Oyster argument, if all you are after is a weekend cruiser and maybe a bit of club racing, with a month or two liveaboard each year then the Cat makes better sense particularly I'd have thought if you are just two crewing. Even if you went long term cruising but were satisfied with the Caribbean or in our case the Great Barrier Reef then the Catalina still makes sense. Want to cruise around the planet ? The Oyster is your world. Its horses for course mate, horses for courses. 

One other point however ..... in the real world you are going to pick up the Oyster for well shy of USD320.000. At worst I'd have thought around USD280/290K. You'll not be getting 10-20% off the asking price of the Catalina. so the cost comparison may not be all that valid.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

guitarguy56 said:


> No doubt the Oysters are a beautiful well built boat and I apologize if I came across rude... I really meant most owners of these boats are very well to do at least compared to me...


It might help at this point if you specify what price range you are looking for. Not just purchase cost, but budget for slip, storage, ongoing maintenance. You seem to be kind of all over the place with boat possibilities, and some budgetary limitations would help narrow it down a lot. Plus, a brand new C445 is not a cheap boat either, and will cost you a lot in ongoing maintenance, like any other large boat.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

tdw said:


> Maybe I've something to contribute to this debate. Three years ago we went Malo. I guess they could be legitimately bundled in with Oysters in terms of build quality, seaworthiness etc. Our alternatives were probably things like Catalina , Beneteau, Juneau and the like. We went Malo cos we had thought by now we would be well and truly out there. Facts of life got in the way and here I am still running my business. Less than gruntled about that but there you go, its a pretty common tale.
> 
> Now lets for the moment presume we don't ever make it then quite frankly something like a e.g. Beneteau 425 Oceanis would have made a hell of a lot more sense than our Malo and would have saved us around AUD$100.000. Reality is we have more boat than we really need. Nonetheless we use the Malo almost weekly, get away for a couple of mini cruises each year and her build quality still astounds me.
> 
> ...


Our plan is to cruise 9 months of the year and come back to the house for two to three months and back on the boat... maybe not in that format but somewhere in between... we do know we have to come back to the states for my wife's medication and testing once a year... she also needs a certain number of weeks for monitoring, etc., but once done we can cruise again... our other maintenance time is our many gardens and fruit trees... who maintains them? We at one point need to downsize a good bit! :laugher

That said... the Oyster would be a great buy if it was in the U.S. (110V and not 220V) but we believe we want to buy new at this point... we've been tallying it up and feel do it now rather than later... none of us of course is getting younger.

Crewing will be us two besides the occasional crewing with my son, daughter and husband... so five of us plus our 2 yr old grandson... so we would need room for five plus on this ship... we at least need two heads. 

If I were to buy a new Oyster in the size we're looking at what are we talking about in terms of cost? We wouldn't even look at it... but the Cat 445 or boats similar in price range to us is a frugal use of our money (for new boats not used).


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

I wonder how many who bring up the Rolls Royce, Bentley or high end Mercedes/BMW comparison have ever owned these cars?

If they have then they realize how ridiculously expensive they are to maintain and the question is always; why are these “quality” vehicles not as reliable as the “lesser” brands that they look down their noses at?

Any car will last 500k miles if you rebuild it every 150k-200k miles which is what the repair/maintenance bills for these ultra cars can equate to. Sure they are awesome when they are right but why does a Honda go way longer for less hassle? 

I wonder how many of those who sneer,”buy the Catalina if you can’t tell the difference”, own a $350,000 boat themselves?

I got fed up with buying new Mercedes “quality” and now drive a Honda Accord EX-L V6. Wish I had done it sooner!

Buy what makes sense for you and congratulations for being able to.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

TakeFive said:


> It might help at this point if you specify what price range you are looking for. Not just purchase cost, but budget for slip, storage, ongoing maintenance. You seem to be kind of all over the place with boat possibilities, and some budgetary limitations would help narrow it down a lot. Plus, a brand new C445 is not a cheap boat either, and will cost you a lot in ongoing maintenance, like any other large boat.


Not all over the place just not sure what I (we) want... tough to do while I'm here in Montreal and the wifey is in Savannah... trading emails and photos... it would help if the two of us went to the Catalina sales office, the Southerly sales office, etc. and see up close these boats in and out.

We have the budget, we have the slip located and the costs, maintenance should be at a minimum if it's a new boat right? Sure they'll be costs whether new or used.

I really feel uncomfortable laying out my finances but suffice to say we have a West Palm Beach home to sell, property in Savannah to sell, investments we could dispose of and the sale of my business to a partner (this would be our cruising kitty till retirement kicks in). We've been very frugal savers over twenty years (we're both professionals), along with one inheritance after my wife's grandmothers death. We want to keep our current home as our home base and pass on to the kids, but we could sell it as well and pick up a townhouse/condo and downsize leaving us more time for cruising and keep our keepsakes and memories in storage... in that case we could really go big and perhaps go with something larger rather than the 445 or the Southerly 42.

I think we are in a position and always were in but procrastinated due to my wife's health condition and traffic accident back in 2010, both have done a toll on her (us) doing anything until I had the opportunity to pick up a contract in the Puget Sound area that allowed me to purchase a simple sailboat to get my sea legs again... after a couple of sails to the San Juan's, my wife is now ecstatic to go sailing to the Caribbean and other areas so heck who am I to say no?


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

sailpower said:


> I wonder how many who bring up the Rolls Royce, Bentley or high end Mercedes/BMW comparison have ever owned these cars?
> 
> If they have then they realize how ridiculously expensive they are to maintain and the question is always; why are these "quality" vehicles not as reliable as the "lesser" brands that they look down their noses at?
> 
> ...


Good point. I've had three Mercedes (two issued to me, and one I bought) and you do not want to be the owner of one of these cars when they go out of warranty. They break a lot, and it's not cheap to fix them. I don't know what correlation that has exactly with boats, but luxury and quality are not always the same thing in my experience.

I bought a used 42 Catalina after looking at a new Catalina 445. It's not that I didn't like the 445, I just wasn't ready to put every dime I had into a boat. If my net worth had been double of what it was, I might have bought the 445 (or an Oyster if it were triple). But, IMHO, any time you buy more of anything than you need, that's money that could have been re-directed to something you did need.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

sailpower said:


> I wonder how many who bring up the Rolls Royce, Bentley or high end Mercedes/BMW comparison have ever owned these cars?
> 
> If they have then they realize how ridiculously expensive they are to maintain and the question is always; why are these "quality" vehicles not as reliable as the "lesser" brands that they look down their noses at?


Sorry, but I don't think that analogy applies at all... Virtually all of the "ridiculously expensive" additional cost of maintaining 'high end' yachts goes to maintaining their _FINISH_, primarily brightwork, and such... But most of the essential components of such boats - sails, engines, electronics, and so on - should require no more, or more costly service, whether they be on the Oyster, or the Catalina... Assuming comparable age and use, of course. But once you get beyond or eliminate exterior woodwork/brightwork on any yacht, maintenance costs are primarily a function of the size and complexity of a boat, and there is little reason why it would cost more to maintain or use an Oyster, than a comparably sized and equipped Catalina... And, given the higher build quality of the Oyster overall, I would suggest it could cost less in the long run, over the practical life of the boat...

If I were looking for a boat of that size within the OP's apparent budget, I'd have a good look at a Hallberg Rassy 43... I ran the one that's currently for sale in Annapolis up from Trinidad last June, it's a magnificent boat and an incredible sailing machine... About 8 days from Chagauramas to Ft Pierce, then 4 days 2 hours from Ft Pierce to Annapolis, and I've never felt more comfortable and secure offshore than I did on that boat...

Polar opposite of a boat like the Southerly, of course, and it's not ICW capable... But, when you sail a boat like that for a couple of weeks and a couple of thousand miles, you truly appreciate the rationale for spending your money on _QUALITY_...

I'd take mine with the hard dodger, but the HR 43 would be one of the few center cockpit boats I'd care to own... However, as I didn't hit the Mega Millions numbers last night, looks like I may have to wait at least another week...


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

We bought a boat that really was more than we could afford (oyster 45) as a home we live in as we sail around the world.
We could have bought a cheaper boat and directed the money elsewhere.
What we wanted though was something to keep us safe no matter where we went so we would be alive at the other end.
It is no good having money in a bank account if you are no longer there to use it.
As the original poster has seen resale values are very high and there are good reasons for this.

I could extol the virtues of an Oyster but anyone who owns any kind of boat will often defend the decision to buy it. 

All I will say is that for us the decision was the right one.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Nostrodamus said:


> We bought a boat that really was more than we could afford (oyster 45) as a home we live in as we sail around the world.
> We could have bought a cheaper boat and directed the money elsewhere.
> What we wanted though was something to keep us safe no matter where we went so we would be alive at the other end.
> It is no good having money in a bank account if you are no longer there to use it.
> ...


As in owning a home sometimes we over do it for the number of people living in the home... our current home is over 3000 sq. ft... too much for my wife to maintain... it was alright when the kids (older teenagers) lived in the home but then my daughter graduated college and my son is ready to move out for graduate school... what does my wife do in such a big house by herself while I'm away... she can barely manage when I'm there... we get into these traps and finding a way out sometimes is not easy. Don't get me wrong we love our home and all we've done to have a nice homestead but when I look at it with a broader brush... I wish we had done things smaller... I actually envy people that have smaller homes.

Same with boats... there is a sweet spot on the right size of boats... I originally thought boats in the 32-35 foot range was what we needed but now it seems that is not enough space for 5 adults plus, I also don't want to get something so big that we then regret the costs of maintaining a sailboat larger than what we need.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

guitarguy56 said:


> I originally thought boats in the 32-35 foot range was what we needed but now it seems that is not enough space for 5 adults plus, I also don't want to get something so big that we then regret the costs of maintaining a sailboat larger than what we need.


How often will you have 5 adults aboard? If its once a year you need the space and the rest of the time it will be mostly just you and the Admiral, you may want to consider chartering a bigger boat for those big family vacation. You avoid a lot of costs that way and still get a boat that is right for you. Not to mention that you can afford to charter a much bigger and nicer boat than you could reasonably afford to own.

I went through the same calculus, albeit on a much smaller scale. The first time my wife slept aboard our Oday 23, she said that we should get a bigger boat. Despite this (wonderful) statement, I didn't pull the trigger. Knowing that my wife really didn't want to stay over on the boat (let alone do a real cruise) and that almost all of my boating would be daysails/after work jaunts/very occasional boys' overnights, I knew the Oday was the right size. Turns out to have been the right choice. Ten years later, I'm still trying to get my wife to charter a boat in the Caribbean.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We've been up to 40', where we routinely had 4 adults and 3-4 pre-and-teen kids over the years cruising for up to 3 weeks on a trot.. After the partnership was dissolved neither party wanted 'that much boat'.

We're now down to a comfortable (for two) 35 footer (though smallish by today's standards) and we often entertain guests, usually another couple but occasionally some kids too. Those weeks strain our space allotment, but for short term situations it's do-able. 

One thing that makes a huge difference is how 'boat savvy' your guests are.

We joined friends in the Caribbean on their 36 footer with a group of 4 - so 6 adults (all seasoned sailors) on the boat - pretty tight!. Our hosts told us later that the 4 of us were much less disruptive to their lives on board than a single or a couple who were not boaters in the first place.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Sorry, but I don't think that analogy applies at all...


I'm simply pointing out that the car analogy might not be the appropriate one to make.

Like you, there are boats that I would like as well but I didn't feel that telling the OP what those are would be relevant to his question.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

After a few posts saying small boats are better, can I chime in and counter?

I reckon bigger boats are better!

A friend on this forum who is a solo sailor as I am has recently bought a Jeaneau 57 and loves it. I have been on it a number of times including just last week and my eyes tear up as I dribble with envy, the emotion we are never meant to have! Covert thy neighbours possessions? YES! bigger is better wether its for a solo sailor of a bucket full of family and friends!

If I decided to change boat (ok, theres a spot for someone to donate a few zillion $) i would be looking at anew production boat 50 to, damn, I'll say it 57 feet long.

Go as big as you can afford.

A Catalina 45 would fit the bill... As would an Oyster 45.... Or an Oyster 80!!!!!!!!


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> After a few posts saying small boats are better, can I chime in and counter?
> 
> I reckon bigger boats are better!
> 
> ...


Sometimes it is just not about just sailing. If you live aboard as we do then you need the space and also a big fridge to keep the beers in for guests.. sorry, bought the boat so we cannot afford the champagne.


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## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

Why stop at an 80, Oyster makes a 125! Money not an issue, I would still not get a sailboat any bigger than I could comfortably cruse the majority of the ICW and the Grand Bahama Banks. This would limit me to a designed mast height of under 63 feet and a draft under 6 feet. That gives me options and would be much easier to hole up for a Hurricane.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

findrichard said:


> Why stop at an 80, Oyster makes a 125! Money not an issue, I would still not get a sailboat any bigger than I could comfortably cruse the majority of the ICW and the Grand Bahama Banks. This would limit me to a designed mast height of under 63 feet and a draft under 6 feet. That gives me options and would be much easier to hole up for a Hurricane.


Why stop in the ICW if you have an Oyster 125.. the world is your Oyster.


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## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

Home is where the heart is.


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## welshwind (Feb 27, 2005)

Regarding boat size, there are just some things from my experience that a 36 footer has a hard time doing. For example, when we considered upgrading our 36CC Beneteau vs. buying the 445, we talked about what we would really like to change. 

One was we wanted to sleep feet inward, not feet outward. In most 36 ft boats I know, sleeping in the forward cabin means feet toward the bow and sleeping in an aft cabin means feet towards the stern. At my age and having to get up in the middle of the night, that involved some gymnastics that I'd just as soon not have to deal with any longer. Not an issue on the bigger boat. Now I'll be able to slide out instead of having to do a 180 first.

Another thing we discussed is our love of hosting dinner with friends. On the old boat, we could fit six comfortably around the salon table (sometimes had up to eight or nine). But if someone sitting forward needed to use the head (which was aft) or get to the galley, everyone on one side had to get up and they had to walk on the actual settee to get out (or remove the all the plates on one side and drop the leaf of the table). On a bigger boat, you don't have to drop the leaf ... the passageway forward and aft never gets blocked.

We did want extra room for when the kids (and hopefully grandkids someday)come to visit. But that was a small part of why we wanted the bigger boat.

Add to it the increase in speed and stability/weight and it just made sense to get bigger... at least for us. I guess I'll be able to say it definitively one way or the other after I've had it for a few years, but right now it really feels like the right decision to go bigger.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

We would have the kids on the boat every chance we can get... realistically it would be 3-4 times a year for my daughter/husband/grandson, but my son would be on it every chance he would get including many of his friends, otherwise its just the two of us.

We would also cruise with many of our close friends for several weeks at a time but would be no different than at the house during a get together.

The center of attention would be the salon of course so we would like the largest salon available within reason for the size of the boat... agree about being blocked off... I sort of like the port settee and starboard settee designs with the table occupying the off center allowing guests to walk across, but I like the raised salon also.

I'll have to look a little closer on these boats...


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Go as big as you can afford.


And use! The only reason I have my current boat is for the space and it really is just my wife and I. Near as I can tell for a couple the idea size is about 46-48' aft cockpit or around 43-45' center cockpit. After that the extra space goes to guests and I want them visit, and then leave!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

mstern said:


> How often will you have 5 adults aboard? If its once a year you need the space and the rest of the time it will be mostly just you and the Admiral, you may want to consider chartering a bigger boat for those big family vacation. You avoid a lot of costs that way and still get a boat that is right for you. Not to mention that you can afford to charter a much bigger and nicer boat than you could reasonably afford to own.
> 
> I went through the same calculus, albeit on a much smaller scale. The first time my wife slept aboard our Oday 23, she said that we should get a bigger boat. Despite this (wonderful) statement, I didn't pull the trigger. Knowing that my wife really didn't want to stay over on the boat (let alone do a real cruise) and that almost all of my boating would be daysails/after work jaunts/very occasional boys' overnights, I knew the Oday was the right size. Turns out to have been the right choice. Ten years later, I'm still trying to get my wife to charter a boat in the Caribbean.


That's my philosophy too. Fortunately, my wife has been much more willing to charter and cruise. After a week in BVI last year, she said she does not want to do any more land-based vacations down there - it's exclusively boat charters now.

With my current 25' boat, I save enough in maintenance and slip costs to pay for almost 2 week-long boat charters a year, which is more than I have time for anyway.


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

guitarguy56 said:


> I assume the Catalina is the Chevy? But both cars (boats) will be able to travel the same roads (oceans)... I don't plan on sailing across the Atlantic or Pacific (maybe the Fiji's, are we saying the Cat 445 is not blue water capable?) but for the most part it's the price difference of an older boat to the newer boat... especially since the newer boat has less breakdown chance (all things equal). I guess I'll find out soon.


Yup, the Cat's the Chevy....nothing wrong with Chevys mind you.

Both boats can travel the same roads, but one is much better built than the other. It will stand up to the bumps in the road better than the other. A stronger boat will bounce off things that will do a weaker one in. If you sail to Fiji, you've sailed across the Pacific. You can get to Fiji in either boat, but you should ask yourself which one will give you a better ride on the return trip across the North Pacific above 45 deg. The Oyster weighs roughly twice what the Cat does (~40,000 vs 22,000#). That alone should tell you something about which one is probably the stronger boat.

Each of these boats was build for a market --- one targeted people who could spend $320K, the other $1,000K +. As the Wombat might say, "It's chalk and cheese, mate."

A couple of other things to consider:

1/ I've never owned an Oyster (couldn't afford it), but here's a reason the Oyster costs much more new. Materials, workmanship, how things are put together, quality of components, ease of maintenance, etc.

2/ Actually, the Oyster might not break down sooner. A boat just out of the factory is often a "work in progress". I had a friend who paid somewhere north of $600K for a new 45'er and one year later was back in the yard replacing all the ports....everyone was leaking. I read somewhere on this site that a guy had a 18-24 month old boat he had bought new. A valve seat let go and blew the engine up. Mfgr of boat and engine said, "Tough luck, out of warranty". An older boat, especially one that has been well cared for is well broken in. All the quirks have been fixed, the minor problems identified and solved long ago. A boat that's 15 years old may have had recent upgrades of electronics or other systems. I've owned BR for 15 years and I'm replacing stuff I replaced shortly after I bought her.

3/ An older boat will have more gear on it. You might be able to sail it away. A new boat, even one kitted out with "everything" is still going to cost you a bundle as you make minor modifications you didn't think of before, and buy all things you didn't know you needed, etc.

4/ Do I need to say anything about resale value. Guess which one is going to depreciate faster. It's like a car...20-25% or more the first year. In ten years the Cat's going to be worth maybe 50% of what you paid for it. In ten years the Oyster may be worth what you paid for it, if you treat it well and keep it good repair.

My advice to you is to due your home work on the Oyster. It is a better made boat and it may, in fact, represent better value in both near and longer term.

PS Guess I should have read the four previous pages of posts.....sorry for being repetitive.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Using the analogy of comparing Chevys to Fords as a way of comparing a Catalina to an Oyster makes about as much sense as using the comparison between Piper and Cessna airplanes. If you have to resort to a car (or airplane) comparisons, then perhaps you are not well versed enough in either the Catalina or Oyster to offer an informed opinion. The 22,000# displacement for the Catalina is way wrong. It is a misprint. The “sling weight” for a C42 averages around 24,000#. The Catalina “depreciation” claims are also well off base (at least here in Northern California). My 15 year old Catalina was purchased new for $92k. Last year I had it appraised and the market for my boat was between $85k and $115k (broker put my boat at $100 - $110k. Hardly a 50% drop. The only things I have replaced have been running rigging and sails along with the occasional block (yes, I also race the boat).


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## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

Wow, Glad I am not in California! Think there could be some money made here - buying a C34 on the east coast and sailing it to CA? It would be like what I used to say in the Army waiting for takeoff clearance, "I can't believe they are paying me to do this"

Length:	34' Beam: 11.9'
Year:	2000
Type:	cruiser
Hull:	fiberglass monohull
Engine:	1 diesel inboard
Location:	Bohemia Bay Yacht Harbor, Michigan
Asking:	$84,900

Length:	34' Beam: 11.9' Draft: 4.3'
Year:	2001
Type:	cruiser
Hull:	fiberglass monohull
Engine: diesel inboard
Location:	Annapolis, Maryland
Asking:	$89,900

Length:	34' Beam: 11' 9' Draft: 4' 3'
Year:	1999
Type:	cruiser
Hull:	fiberglass monohull
Engine:	1 gas inboard
Location:	Weymouth, Massachusetts
Asking:	$80,000


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## bob77903 (Nov 10, 2008)

As someone else said, if you have to ask, buy the Catalina.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Findrichard, The numbers you cited look to be consistent with the appraisal I was given. I’m assuming that they were “Plain Janes” to be on the low side. Just note that the transportation costs will more than wipe out any profits you may be anticipating. Even if you only compared your examples, the depreciation rate would be under 10% over the fifteen years. That is a lot different than 50% over a “few” years. 

I just noticed that your boats, for the most part are shoal draft. In California, that is a deal breaker and would put them at rock bottom in terms of pricing.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

With the Oyster that is also the weight without fuel and water. The tanks on an Oyster are pretty big adding a lot more weigh when they are both full. Both tanks are in the centre of the boat under the floor for added stability. So are the batteries.
The difference in weight probably comes from the hull which is solid (very solid) grp, and a huge lead bulb on the keel.
We tend to cut through wave rather that bounce off them and she sails very upright. Even when over canvassed in a gust she slowly heals rather than being skittish.
Even on a 45 as with all oysters all the woodwork is hand crafted and If I took a door off from somewhere the chances are it wouldn't fit another 45 and they are made to measure so you don't get creeks, groans or doors opening unexpectedly.
Every cable is numbered from start to end so you know what it is and where it ends up and all parts you need to get at are easily accessible.
Oyster know where about 98% of their boats are and keep in regular contact. They say if you can contact them by e-mail or phone from anywhere they can get a part to you.
They have full details of every part on your boat so they know what part you are after without giving them model numbers.
Go on one of their organised rallies or on the Arc and they send a full teams of riggers, engineers and electricians down to give your boat a full free health check and assist with any repairs.
I am happy with our choice but as I said we live aboard so it is our home as well which makes a difference.
I can sail single handed quiet easily for a biggish boat.
If I had have only been using a boat occasionally or only locally then it would have been overkill but it is horses for courses. We are going around the world so there is a difference.
Just because a boat is more expensive does not mean it is better for you. 
As others have said... It is not how expensive it is but what you do with it.


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## Hush34 (Dec 12, 2013)

My wife and I had a similar decision to make but on a smaller scale. We looked at the Catalina 35s and ended up buying an older Pacific Seacraft. Many have mentioned the Chevy/Mercedes comparison but there is more to it. Consider this...when you find yourself stuck in a horrible storm and you have your family or friends lives in your hands are you going to want to be on the Catalina or the Oyster. There simply is no way you can compare the build of the two manufacturers. Just me, but I like the older better built vessel more than the newer mass production boat. As another benefit....The Oyster simply will give you more look back moments, those moments when you are in the dingy heading to dinner and you look back to take another look at your beautiful boat. Catalinas quite frankly resemble floating bleach bottles. Just my humble opinion...not meant to stir up the Catalina owners out there...just offering it up.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Never heard that one... "floating beach bottle".. filed for a future blog:laugher


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## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

Bummer, no sailing adventures for me.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Nostrodamus said:


> Never heard that one... "floating beach bottle".. filed for a future blog:laugher


Yes, that will dress up future pontifications quite smartly.


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## welshwind (Feb 27, 2005)

findrichard said:


> Wow, Glad I am not in California! Think there could be some money made here - buying a C34 on the east coast and sailing it to CA? It would be like what I used to say in the Army waiting for takeoff clearance, "I can't believe they are paying me to do this"
> 
> Length:	34' Beam: 11.9'
> Year:	2000
> ...


Using these prices for depreciation calculations, the worst case scenario ($80,000) has just a 13% depreciation over the $92,000 GeorgeB paid for his boat. That is a far cry from the 40-60% depreciation people are putting out there.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

welshwind said:


> Using these prices for depreciation calculations, the worst case scenario ($80,000) has just a 13% depreciation over the $92,000 GeorgeB paid for his boat. That is a far cry from the 40-60% depreciation people are putting out there.


Those are asking prices. Asking and getting are two different things. A good rule of thumb (not always, but a generality) is the sell price after survey is generally 10% under asking. In addition, you have a 10% commission for the broker. So, using that ballpark:

80,000-10%=72,000. $72,000-10% commission=$64,800.

$64,800/$92,000=.70 or basically a 30% loss. That is realistic.

However, these losses are not unique to Catalina and this particular case was again using his worst case, which may or may not represent the market. Any boat, purchased new, will take a nice hit. I should know. I have bought all four of mine new. The Tayana was the only used boat.

I would highly suggest not buying a new boat unless you plan to keep her at least five years. My guess is that is about how long it will take for you to get rid of her and not have to pay to get rid of her. Of course, if the price of oil keeps going up, or the market does a large rebound, all bets are off. Same thing for the opposite.

My opinions.

Brian


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Ouch! My broker told me that I could reasonably expect to get $100K or above (before commisions) for my boat. In NorCal, $70k has been the closing price for 1990 - 1995 vintage boats. The Market is still pretty hot for C34 and C36's out here. And of course, price depends upon individual upgrades and modifications.


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## sugarbird (Dec 23, 2013)

If buying a used Oyster over a new Catalina doesn't make sense to you, just don't do it! The auto analogies work to a certain extent, but not 100%. Even Catalina is a relatively "limited production" operation compared to autos, and Oyster is a near custom operation, wherever they're built. There ARE very real differences, both visible to the naked eye and hidden away in unseen nooks and crannies. Even the best gear wears out though, and few boats, even Oysters, get absolutely perfect maintenance and continual upgrades.

I sail an older Tartan in the Caribbean, and enjoy the same sunsets, picturesque anchorages and roaring reaches as folks on multimillion dollar Perini Navi hundred footers, big old Swans, Cats, Bene's and Jeanneaus of all sizes, all the way down to nondescript (and occasionally decrepit) little boats I'd feel uncomfortable getting out of sight of land aboard (some of which were sailed across the Atlantic to get here!). 

I've come to believe that the single most important factor in buying a boat is whether it makes your heart sing...do you love it, or not. The damn things take too much time, money and effort to "make sense," but if you're in love, well, hey, that's the real deal.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

sugarbird said:


> I've come to believe that the single most important factor in buying a boat is whether it makes your heart sing...do you love it, or not. The damn things take too much time, money and effort to "make sense," but if you're in love, well, hey, that's the real deal.


That's the truth. People spend way too much time trying to use their head when buying a boat, but if they really listened to their head they wouldn't buy a boat to start with.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

With all due respect to some of the posters here, let me see if I can throw some comments in here.

First, you are comparing a brand new boat to a 16 year old boat. Really? Just so ya know, Oyster is not in the business of making engines, spars, hatches, pumps, blocks, winches, windlass, etc. What is the age and wear of those? I am not going to tell you that the Catalina 445 isn't going to have some things you may want to invest in it, but you are under warranty on that boat for everything! You add because you want to, not because you have to. Let me give you a little example: when we bought the Tayana, we had a mechanical survey (which I highly recommend for everyone). Had the oil tested, everything. Came back clean as a whistle. THat was 2007. From then, my old man put a lot of money and time into really maintaining that engine. Then last year it blew. No warnings, nothing. THe cost to replace: $25,000. I am not saying that Oyster is about to blow its engine, but how do you know? What shape are the chain plates? The rest of the standing rigging? THe sails? Generator? Any one of those replaces can be a very expensive investment. Your Catalina will be covered under warranty for that stuff and I suggest getting the extended warranty on the engine. CHeap protection.

Second, I love these comments about all this displacement and that a heavy boat shows how well she is built. HAHA! So, using that logic, Brent Swain's steel boats he builds in his back yard with a blow torch, scrap steel and a grinder are superior to your boats, right? It displaces more. Heck, forget steel. What about a concrete boat? Of course, to even suggest this is ridiculous. THe reality is that technologies have changed and improved. Displacement is not a great way to identify great boats. In fact, a lighter displacement boat may very well represent a boat built with better technology and materials. I will tell you one of the negatives of displacement... moving. THe Tayana weighs (dry) 38,500 lbs. If it ain't blowing a sustained 15-20, it is a waist of time to even bother pulling out the sails. Maybe the Oyster is a faster boat... but displacement is a killer and has to be counterbalanced with SA. Now here comes the kicker: How do you compare that? One way is SA/D which at least gives you an idea of how that boat will move (especially in light air, which is what it always seems to be). So what is the displacement of the Catalina? What did you say... 22,500? HAHA! Good luck with that. THat is DESIGNED DISPLACEMENT! Real world, dry, coming off the factory floor may very well be completely different. FOr example, My C400 (the smaller sister of the C445) is supposed to weight 19500 or so IIRC. My last pull was 27,500 without the crap on deck. Now that is a full cruising boat, but the point is that there ain't no way my boat weighs anywhere near its designed displacement, empty. SO, take any online displacements (and drafts) with a grain of salt. Best thing they could have done to make that C400 faster was shave off some more pounds. But that would have required compromises I might not have liked, like CF rigging, minimalizing interior cabinetry, dropping in a deep draft bulbous keep over a heavier wing, cored hull, etc. Many of those would make the boat much more expensive, many would remove them from my consideration for how I (and where) like to use the boat.

Third, lets chat about cabinetry. I will pick on the Oyster first. That beautiful, handmade, handcrafted cabinetry with wood hand picked from the finest rainforests in the world is fantastic... but here is the kicker. When you want to fix a ding or scrape in your sole, repair a water stain, replace a door that got busted in on a passage, guess what? Not only are you putting yourself in a major port with a very specialized carpenter, but you may well have a nightmare matching that wood back up. Did you know that not all teaks are the same?? Hmm... if not, educate yourself. I learned that one the hard way. So while your finely handmade wood may be a one of a kind, so to will be replacing or repairing it. Now on the flip side, let's chat about the Catalina. Those pieces are cut, to exact specifications, with a CNC or other precision instruments and I bet you could take the door off of HN1 and stick it on HN 300. Not only would it fit, it would probably match the wood or be close to. Why? Because Catalina buys its teak in large bulk and the specs for those cabinets are exact for almost every C445. In fact, if you walk through their factory, you will see a long line of cabinets and doors laying off the side of the wood shop for models and years going way back. I saw 400 doors there and many others. So when something bad happens, you can pick up the phone, call Catalina, and they may even have a spare door laying around they can ship you the next day. Oh and one more thing, all the cabinets on my boat are solid teak or double sided teak veneered plywood. No stickers or one sided ply. That ain't cheap.

Fourth, lets talk about SOG. I plan my SOG and VMG at about 6.5-7 and often exceed it depending on the weather and currents. What do you plan yours at? I often get my boat at or over hull speed. What does it take to get your boat over hull speed?

Fifth, with all due respect, I have a real issue with the comment about your displacement pushing you through the waves. Pfft, good luck with that. Have you done a Gale or a Storm offshore yet? Let me show you a pic:



Let's see ya break through that wave! Its crest may not be as high as your boat, but the troughs between it are way bigger. If your boat tried to break through that wave, assuming you made it at all, when you arrived on the other side you would be picking up your teeth from the sole and looking out your companionway at all the debris and rigging stringing behind you. Sailboats do NOT break through waves, they ride them. Only ships break through waves... and even they have to ride the large swells. There is a pic somewhere of a tanker pushing though waves and the damage to his bow was incredible... steel literally peeled back to the ribs like an orange.

Fantastic customer service that knows that boat inside and out, including an array of support for old models and a large owner's group. When you have as many boats on the market as X-model Catalina, you can bet they are going to have seen it all (or mostly). Catalina puts out Mainsheet (which I tech editor for the 400s and help on the C445 if I can... we share the same spot because our hulls are similar) which is a run by the owners and discusses owner problems. Lots of good information there and lots of problems reviewed and discussed. Also, Catalina supports models way out of production and can probably tell you, right down to the screw, where they got it and how to get another (if they don't have one themselves). Catalina listens to their owners and has done a well above average job of changing their boats over time to fix issues or make future owners happier. I have also personally witness Catalina fixing things for free that I don't think they should have bothered with. Their reputation is very important to them too and bad reps are like a cancer in the marine industry.

Now its my turn to pick on the Catalina.

I honestly believe that the new Catalinas, and certain previous models, are the finest mass production boats on the market today. I am glad to see that. But a Catalina, like every other mass production boat, suffers from some real negatives. Here are my gripes:

First, Cabinetry. You see, when you are making a Catalin, every screw is multiplied by what may be hundreds of hulls. So they minimize things they don't have to. Cabinets are a big one. The oysters of the world are filled with cabinets. Every space that is reasonable is taken up and utilized. They can do that because they are building at a volume where the margins are higher and the numbers built lower. For Catalina to add that same cabinet on every single model and multiply it times hundreds (or thousands) of hulls is very expensive for them... so they don't! They instead use these shelves with lips (often not even fiddleboards!!!!) which are useless at anything but the boat show or marina. As a cruiser and liveaboard, don't underestimate the high value of cabinetry.

Accessibility. Catalina has done a good job at making the systems s they can come out... but not all of them. SOme of these hoses and systems are almost unaccessible without it being a MAJOR PITA. Just got over one last month. Compare that to how Valiant builds its boat, for example (and I assume Oyster too), the deck and hull are put together and THEN the systems are put in. They don't do this because it is cheaper, they do it because they want to make sure that everything that goes in that boat, can come out. It is an expensive way to build a boat... but a better way.

Making the most out of the space. Ugh... one of my biggest gripes. Catalina uses hull liners and a grid system. While I am not specifically opposed to this type of building for a boat, it leaves many areas that otherwise could have been utilized as space... especially below the waterline. Compare that with the Tayana, for example, where every space they could logically use they tried to utilize. Storage space below the waterline is just as important (if not more) than space above.

Tankage, tankage, tankage. All production boats have low tankage. The advent of watermakers has helped balance some of this so that some owners can switch a small water tank for a diesel tank to theoretically increase their water (I would rather have both), but it is a real hassle.

Lifelines. Does it really cost that much more not to have those freaking knee-trippers???? Put on higher lifelines.

I have a bunch more gripes, but I will stop there.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

So now, here goes as I circle back to the original question: which boat? Well, even though you may think I am Catalina biased, I will say it depends.

I am shopping for a new boat. Everyone knows this. I seriously doubt my next boat will be a Catalina (or mass production boat of any type). The type of boat does not work for my needs anymore. I need three cabins, and a lot more utilized space to raise my family. We are shopping Cats, but also considering a larger mono. Honestly, I could get a really nice, late model or new mono a lot cheaper than the new cats.

But for you, I think the Catalina is the perfect boat for your use. Occasional visitors, new boat, fast, well made for that price point, and a popular boat. That boat is LOADED with hatches and fabulous ventilation which is perfect for the type of cruising you will do. It has a lot of space and is a comfortable boat above and below. You will have a large cockpit to entertain and spacious salon when fixing larger meals. You will have a warranty and after a good shakedown or two, you should be reasonable well suited to leave. This is all assuming you stick within your targeted cruising grounds AND you plan to keep her for at least five years.

But just like the Catalina is perfect for your use, it would not be my first choice (completely ruled out) for other uses like a circum, long time and long distance LA/Cruising, or cruising full-time with a family. There are better boats built for that purpose which are much beefier rigged boats, lots more tankage, cabinetry, better hatches, etc. The difference between a Oyster or a Valiant for example, and a Catalina are extraordinary. But I wouldn't take a Valiant/PSC for coastal, Bahama, Keys cruising for NOTHING! It is the wrong boat for that. 

Funny that I have spent so much time swearing for a Catalina, and my next one probably will not be, but I have tried to be honest and truthful in this and given you my point of view. Yours may be different and that's fine. But in the end, you will know the boat you want when you walk on her. It grabs ahold of you and there is a bond which is hard to let go. Good luck in your search. If you have any questions on Catalinas or I can hlp in your search, let me know. 

Brian

PS DOn't bother trying to do much customizing on that Catalina. To understand why is to realize how they are built: assembly line. When you stop the assembly line for a customization, you don't just stop your boat, you stop others behind you. They may work with you a little, but that is about all and honestly you may be better off having it done post-purchase. Discuss that with Melrna who did customization on her boat. If you want to do much customization, go with a different build outside of any mass production boat... and pull out the checkbook. 

PPS New boats break more (at first) than a used boat. The systems have not been tested and fail early if they are going to fail. They will be replaced, but you need to stick close to your home port at first. Also, really do your homework on your dealer. They will be handling all your claims and they will make or break the process and your opinions of Catalina. Not all dealers are created equal. If you need a great broker, let me know. Melrna knows him too.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Hush34 said:


> Catalinas quite frankly resemble floating bleach bottles. Just my humble opinion...not meant to stir up the Catalina owners out there...just offering it up.


No offense taken. I have spent a fair amount of time around your boats too. They remind me of a trawler with a mast for looks. Getting groceries, water, or fuel on that boat requires an act of yoga in any kind of seastate. Hauling the tender up the davits is an act of acrobatics crawling up the transom. You can't point, reverse is a joke, your cockpit is smaller than the bathtub at a Motel 6, and I have had more elbow room in an MRI than I have down below on your boat. Not to mention, the only reason to pull the sails out on that boat in any winds less than 15-20 knots is to get right of way over the other motorboats.

You have a fabulous boat. I really like the design and it is built (overbuilt) like a brick ****house, but it is a purpose built design for long distance passage-making... NOT coastal cruising or island hopping which is what the OP wanted to do. WIth your tradeoffs, there is NO way I would own that boat for that use. Short of a circum or maybe (maybe) crossing the pond, the abilities of your boat are wasted. Doesn't matter though if it is a boat you love... and that is what is important. If she makes you feel safer and speaks to you, the tradeoffs are worth it. They were NOT for me.

Just my humble opinion...not meant to stir up the PSC owners out there...just offering it up.

Brian


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## welshwind (Feb 27, 2005)

Cruisingdad said:


> Those are asking prices. Asking and getting are two different things. A good rule of thumb (not always, but a generality) is the sell price after survey is generally 10% under asking. In addition, you have a 10% commission for the broker. So, using that ballpark:
> 
> 80,000-10%=72,000. $72,000-10% commission=$64,800.
> 
> ...


No issue with your numbers or that you take a hit. But I would say that the 10% commission is not depreciation in the price of the boat; it is the cost of doing business if you sell through a broker.

Our last boat (and first big boat) was 36 ft, bought used and we had it for 11 years. Our new 445 is planned to be our last boat which realistically means we will have it 15-20 years before we are likely not able to sail on our own any longer and will have to rely on the kindness of friends


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

welshwind said:


> No issue with your numbers or that you take a hit. But I would say that the 10% commission is not depreciation in the price of the boat; it is the cost of doing business if you sell through a broker.
> 
> Our last boat (and first big boat) was 36 ft, bought used and we had it for 11 years. Our new 445 is planned to be our last boat which realistically means we will have it 15-20 years before we are likely not able to sail on our own any longer and will have to rely on the kindness of friends


I love your boat. It is our big sister, and if I had gone back, I would choose that boat over our 400. I really like what Catalina has done with it. I am not saying it is an Oyster, Hylas, or HR... but it is a nice boat for that price point and design point. In fact, it is probably the only boat in the Catalina line that will outrun me!! Maybe I don't like you so much after all....

As far as the brokerage fee, I can see your point, but the reality is that a boat of that value is most likely going to be sold through a broker and that is a real cost of owning the boat. Some people have sold them without a broker, but they are few and far between.

Brian


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## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

"Catalina listens to their owners and has done a well above average job of changing their boats over time to fix issues or make future owners happier." This is true, when I purchased my first Catalina a 22, we had some issue I can't remember now what it was. However when my wife called the customer complaint department the man that answered the phone was the CEO. That left a lasting impression on me.

"80,000-10%=72,000. $72,000-10% commission=$64,800.

$64,800/$92,000=.70 or basically a 30% loss. That is realistic." This may be understated when you figure in all the add on stuff required to make a new boat cruse ready.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Cruisingdad said:


> So now, here goes as I circle back to the original question: which boat? Well, even though you may think I am Catalina biased, I will say it depends.
> 
> I am shopping for a new boat. Everyone knows this. I seriously doubt my next boat will be a Catalina (or mass production boat of any type). The type of boat does not work for my needs anymore. I need three cabins, and a lot more utilized space to raise my family. We are shopping Cats, but also considering a larger mono. Honestly, I could get a really nice, late model or new mono a lot cheaper than the new cats.
> 
> ...


CD... Thank you for the two excellent write ups... definitely will be listening closely to Melissa and her voyages and how well her boat behaves. I've contacted Melissa and have the broker's name and other contacts. This will be the first order of business when I get home this May, I just want the misses coming to see the boat up close and personal. The brokerage fortunately for the Catalina is an hour away from my home.

Agree with the method they build the Cat's there isn't too much customization that can be done outside of getting it done away from the shop but I will ask what are my options. This is why I am now looking at the Sotherly's and also now Benetau's.

As mentioned earlier we're not circumnavigating anywhere, not even crossing any major oceans, mostly coastal and island cruising no more than 9 months or less at a time so either of these sailing vessels mentioned would work.

Please everyone... read the thread completely so you understand it was a comparison and not that I would buy an Oyster over a Catalina or vice versa... it was only a new vs used comparison only.

Forgot to mention this boat will stay in the family till my kids sink it or sell it.  :laugher


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## opc11 (Jun 8, 2011)

guitarguy,

I just read through the entire thread. I love Southerly's. The variable draft is highly appealing to me. But, I've yet to look into pricing and if I had to guess aren't they significantly more expensive than the price range you're currently considering?

If so, and you like the variable draft you might want to look at some of the French aluminum builders (Ovni, Boreal, Allure and Garcia). They are definitely a lot more than the Catalina, but I'm guessing they're close to the Southerly's. Construction is fantastic. They're renowned for being very dry and quiet hulls. The most common gripe are from people who know people who know people that once heard of corrosion eating through the hull....ie, complete bs for the most part if you're someone who is going to take care of what they own. and if not, show me a boat that doesn't decay.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

That's a damn funny rant CD, I don't agree with much of it but appreciate your passion!


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Shockwave said:


> That's a damn funny rant CD, I don't agree with much of it but appreciate your passion!


If you think he is passionate about his bleach bottle, don't get him started on grills.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

chall03 said:


> If you think he is passionate about his bleach bottle, don't get him started on grills.


You nutter!! I thought u folks down under called it a Barbie? I watched crocodile dundee. I know how u guys work!!!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Cruisingdad said:


> You nutter!! I thought u folks down under called it a Barbie? !!


Nup, she's the sheila 'oo makes the salad. Ya never let a woman turn a snag!


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Nup, she's the sheila 'oo makes the salad. Ya never let a woman turn a snag!


You mean Paul Hogan LIED to us?!?!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Lie? His scr ipt writer would never lie!


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Cruisingdad said:


> You nutter!! I thought u folks down under called it a Barbie? I watched crocodile dundee. I know how u guys work!!!


I translated 

We went out for a 'BBQ' when visiting friends in Alabama earlier this year. My daughter was very very confused.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Nup, she's the sheila 'oo makes the salad. Ya never let a woman turn a snag!


No truer words spoken.

Snags are Mens Business.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I had to look it up and still aren't sure, is a snag an Aussie sausage?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> I had to look it up and still aren't sure, is a snag an Aussie sausage?


Yes.

I am suffering over here without a real snag for years. Woe is me!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Whats the matter with you islanders down under? A snag is a sausage and a grill is a sheila??? What do you call a Wombat? Oh, wait...


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

A "Stick" is a boom that goes one way, and does not return! at least so I have been told!

That'd be a boomerang for you non throwing folks.....

marty


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