# Beta Marine - New Hybrid System!



## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

I have been interested in hybrid systems for our boat as we consider a re-power, this one from Beta Marine looks very interesting...it could be a perfect set up for our application...

Beta Marine US Ltd. Distributors for Kubota based marine

http://www.betamarinenc.com/images/Beta Hybrid US low res.pdf


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

I have said this on another thread about these beta hybrids but in my opinion, they do not make sense for most cruisers. The reason that people buy hybrids is to lower fuel consumption, lower costs, or lower noise. For the way most cruisers use their engines, it only succeeds at lowering noise in certain circumstances. Of course, there will be exceptions, but I don't feel that it makes sense for most people.

Sailboats tend to either operate for long periods of time at steady state or short periods of time in transients modes (docking). From an efficiency and cost standpoint, parallel hybrids make absolutely no sense unless it is operated as a plug-in hybrid. The problem is that at steady state, the motor/generator will be doing nothing and adding a bit of parasitic loss. If you were to use the motor to add power so that you could decrease the fuel consumption, this would mean that your batteries would be discharging. Unless you recharge them using shore power, you will need to burn even more fuel to recharge the batteries because every time energy is converted, you loose a bit. Therefore, at steady state, the motor does nothing unless you are using it as a plug-in hybrid with a large battery bank that you charge up on shore power and deplete when cruising. This could work for several hours of motoring but for people who may need to motor for 10's of hours, the battery bank would be prohibitively large. Unfortunately, we haven't come up with a denser way of storing energy than liquid fuels yet. 

The reason that parallel hybrids work in cars (think prius, the volt is series), is that the cars are in a transient state most of the time and have proportionately more power. By operating in a transient state, you can use the electric motor where the gas engine is inefficient but even more importantly, you can recapture kinetic energy and store it in the batteries when slowing down. In a boat, you almost never "brake" and when you do, regen would not be enough so you will never capture any of the energy back. Also, because of consumers demand for acceleration, engines in cars operate at 5-25% of maximum power output when the car is cruising at steady state. Therefore, the engines are way too large to be efficient at these steady state power outputs. By using a hybrid system, the engine can be a much more appropriate size and the electric motor can make up for the lack of power during brief periods of acceleration. On a boat, the engine will be at 60-80% of full load where it is already very efficient and going to a smaller engine will not really help. The exception to this might be the cruiser who doesn't mind motoring very slowly but wants tons of power when docking but I have never really met this cruiser.

The person that I can see this making sense for is the one who goes on very short trips all the time and uses it as more of an electric drive than a hybrid drive. This would mean having a large battery bank that is recharged using shore power every night. Whether this makes financial sense depends on how much the person uses the system, the capitol cost, the cost of shore power and fuel costs. Environmentally, if you used the system enough to overcome the embodied energy, it would be better. The impact would certainly be effected by where you got your power from. Unfortunately, if you motor a lot, solar or wind are simply not going to be viable ways to charge because they will make up such a small percentage of your demand. You would also need to find a way to carry a lot of batteries which take up a lot of space and weigh a lot.

If you operate at steady state most of the time and have a well thought out diesel propulsion system, it will be very hard to beat because every time you do an energy conversion, your efficiency goes down. I would love to come up with a better propulsion system than a diesel but I don't think that it exists yet for a serious cruiser (electric makes sense for daysailors if they have a way of recharging). I have built 3 electric cars and 2 hybrid racecars and hybrid technology would simply not make sense for the way that my friends and I cruise.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Good analysis klem. I find it hard to come up with a situation where a hybrid system makes economic sense.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

The place it has found a home is on certain catamarans where you can replace two gas outboards with one diesel inboard and two electric motors. The diesel gives the owner charging capacity and reliability and no need for gas.
It seems to work really well in this situation. But of course this is not a hybrid. 
\


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Remember that we are sailboat owners. 
We use our motor to get us to and from the dock.
When there is no wind, or light adverse winds, we motor.
When we motor for any appreciable distance, we need a lot of energy. I need about 3 or 4 gallons of diesel to get the full length of Loch Ness. The battery bank to deliver on that would have to be enormous. As for the battery bank to deliver on a 25 gallon motor session, well, have a wee think about that.

Let the motor do it with shaft power directly from the gearbox. Forget this hybrid stuff. It's otherwise known as "diesel-electric". Leave it for submarines and locomotives. They have their own reasons for using the concept, and they have nothing to do with sailing.


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

davidpm said:


> The place it has found a home is on certain catamarans where you can replace two gas outboards with one diesel inboard and two electric motors. The diesel gives the owner charging capacity and reliability and no need for gas.
> It seems to work really well in this situation. But of course this is not a hybrid.
> \


Yes, it does make sense in this situation. It is worth noting though that these systems are series hybrid systems unlike the Beta which is a parallel. In a series hybrid, the engine has no direct connection to the prop shaft. In the car world, this would be the Chevy Volt system.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

I think everyone is missing the point of the concept. It's not just about propulsion. For boats in his size range that would like to have the comfort of airconditioning and a microwave you need ac power. Finding enough room for a generator is not practical so your only option is a portable generator. The concept of adding a generator to the primary propulsion opens up new possibilities in my oppinion.
I personally have chartered one of the Lagoon cats w/ the salomon electric drives. Loved it. 
Jim


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

jimrafford said:


> I think everyone is missing the point of the concept. It's not just about propulsion. For boats in his size range that would like to have the comfort of airconditioning and a microwave you need ac power. Finding enough room for a generator is not practical so your only option is a portable generator. The concept of adding a generator to the primary propulsion opens up new possibilities in my oppinion.
> I personally have chartered one of the Lagoon cats w/ the salomon electric drives. Loved it.
> Jim


Yes I agree. The advantage of this system is not in what concerns propulsion. That can be a small bonus if you have your batteries full. The advantage of this system is that you have on one single package a generator and a boat engine.

Generators are disproportionaly expensive regarding the size of the engine, hard to mount and they require space that many times is not available on a small boat, not to mention having to have maintenance with two engines.

Electrical capacity is not only needed for the ones that want to run AC but to all that want to stay out of marinas for a considerable time.

This is a very good system for any cruising boat that really cruises (out of marinas) and pretty useless for one that is used on week-ends or that coastal cruise for one marina to another.

I would like to have one of those babies on my boat even if I doubt that it would fit (too long).

If I remember correctly this has nothing to do with the Lagoon system. Lagoon had electrical motors (lower power) and a generator to charge the batteries. Here you can run your diesel engine as a conventional engine, without a significant loss in power

Regards

Paulo


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

For the people who want the hybrid for its power generation capabilities, do you have a 48V electric system which is what this runs on? It seems to me that it would make much more sense to simply put a very large alternator on. Nowadays, there are alternators that are large enough that they can output more juice than the batteries can handle. You can also control the charge rate so that you don't bog down your engine when you are powering (the beta system would do this too). With the Beta Hybrid, they are talking about 5KW of generation capabilities which is more than most battery systems can efficiently handle. Unless, you have a large battery bank, a 200A, 12V (5kw is the equivalent of ~350A @14V) alternator would do the same and be simpler.

I definitely agree though that eliminating a generator could be worthwhile on smaller vessels.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

With a good inverter I don't think the 48V will be a problem.

I had a look and it seems they have plenty experience with barges in canals. Of course the efficiency on the sea would be less except in settles waters (that is the case many times when there are no wind at all) but what they say is impressive:

*Our parallel hybrid concept allows you to drive the propeller with the engine in the normal way or alternatively to use an efficient electric motor. When moving under engine power the motor automatically reconfigures itself as a 5kW generator. At standard canal speeds, for every hour of engine propulsion, you generate enough electrical energy to go for a further hour under clean / quiet electric drive. In general our Hybrid canal boats see a 50% reduction in engine hours. ...

The best way to use the hybrid is to fire up the engine on open stretches to rapidly charge up your batteries. When your batteries are charged you can then switch to electric drive and enjoy the countryside in complete silence. It takes about 4kW to push a 60' narrow boat at canal speeds....

...Your hybrid is a portable power station. With the powerful generator capability, a substantial battery bank and inverter technology, you have an optimum power solution. Some of our boats take full advantage of this by being all electric (no gas onboard). Every domestic appliance you use at home can now be powered on your boat : Washer/dryers, electric oven & hobs, toaster, kettle, fridge/freezer etc.

Set the boat up with a normal domestic ring main and there is no need for under powered and costly 12V appliances. For those few items of equipment that need 12V you have a step down converter capability from the main battery bank. Forget running your generator at dusk/dawn to top up the batteries. The enhanced battery bank of the hybrid supplies, in complete silence, more than enough power for the night and can be charged again when you are under way the next day.*

Why fit a Hybrid? - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion

If I was The Chef I would talk directly with these guys for more information since it is them that are on the basis of that particular engine modification to make it an Hybrid.

NB Chelonian Hybrid


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

jimrafford said:


> I think everyone is missing the point of the concept. It's not just about propulsion. For boats in his size range that would like to have the comfort of airconditioning and a microwave you need ac power. Finding enough room for a generator is not practical so your only option is a portable generator. The concept of adding a generator to the primary propulsion opens up new possibilities in my oppinion.
> I personally have chartered one of the Lagoon cats w/ the salomon electric drives. Loved it.
> Jim


Well said, I don't think the intent of this system is to provide long range electrical power? I foresee using the diesel engine for the primary propulsion for extended motoring, but you have the option to use it as a generator when needed (microwave for example) or go 100% electric for in and out of your slip recharging with shore power, a real possibility for our type of use. Although I know many T37 owners have added a Genset to their boats, I can't imagine where, this offers a compact and efficient option.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

PCP said:


> This is a very good system for any cruising boat that really cruises (out of marinas) and pretty useless for one that is used on weak-ends or that coastal cruise for one marina to another.Regards
> 
> Paulo


This is where you lost me...?


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

IF you are thinking of adding a small generator for AC, etc, this seems like a very economical and compact way to go about it. As previously stated generators take up a lot of room, they're complicated (cooling, exhaust, etc) and expensive. If I felt that I needed a generator (I don't) I would take a serious look at these. The only drawback I see is the redundancy you lose being dependent on the one main engine instead of having the genset engine as back up to charge depleted batteries. I didn't see, or perhaps didn't look closely enough, but I wonder what rpm you need to run the engine when using the generator, 1800?


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

The lagoon was set up w/ the Salomon electric drive system and a generator. Different set up but same concept. 
I plan to look in this direction when my Volvo dies.
Jim


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

WOW this is GREAT news! I am really happy about this!

I'm not sure why, but when ever anyone brings up electric boats, hybrids etc there is a fervent resistance from some folks. The boating world is full of different choices, such as the Dashew camp or the Pardey camp, but both camps are respected. Some folks decry with a religious certainty that anything electric has no place propelling a boat. I can't seem to figure why....

I don't expect this system to save me any diesel (though it might: see #4) I'm also not that interested in running many 120V appliances. To my eye the benefits of this system are still numerous:

*1. Quiet.* Even with the inefficiencies, if you charge while running and then alternate (no pun intended) to the electric drive you'll only be motoring a little more than half the time. That's worth the inefficiencies of power loss and charging to me.

*2. Redundancy.* Look at where the motor is connected. It's after the transmission but parallel to it. ie you don't need the electric to be working to use the motor as a traditional direct drive motor. This makes it much better than a series hybrid in that you have an independent electrical system AND an independent direct mechanical system. If one fails, you have the other. Very few parts from the primary engine are needed to run the electric drive. Also, no parts of the electric drive are needed to run the regular engine.

Starting motor failure, starting battery failure, bad diesel, clogged fuel filter, clogged sea strainer, blown impeller, busted belt, low oil pressure, are but a few of the common things that could stop your primary diesel but would not stop this system from still allowing to have 13.4HP of electric as an instant backup.

*3. Safety.* This is closely related to #2. I get nervous sometimes motoring in close quarters, especially if there is current/wind. If my engine suddenly dies I can't expect to have the sails up, drawing, and the boat moving away from danger in close quarters. If you have an electric backup there are no worries when your oil pressure alarm goes off and you're motoring next to your marina's breakwater with an unfavorable wind. The electric is *instantly available at full power with no warm up time*would get you out of trouble, buy you sea room or at least get you pointed in the right direction to help you sail away from danger. This might be enough to keep you off the rocks or avoid a collision with another boat if you engine fails at an inopportune time.

*4. Motor-sailing.* This link: http://www.thehurdles.com/epod_in_use.htm Is to a guy who installed 2 electric "E-pods" motors on his Gemini cat. He left his outboard in place also. He documents the experience well. One of the great joys of the electric motors for him was motor/sailing. He might be sailing along at only 2knots, but with very few amps of power he could increase his speed to 4 knots and maintain the silent serenity and joy of sailing. This meant that he _ sailed a lot more_. Personally, I never motor-sail. I either sail or if I fire up the damn thing, I motor at full tilt because I tried to sail so long it's now getting dark. Instead of sailing at 2 knots and following that with motoring I would MUCH rather sail along at 4knots all day with the electric helping me along and never get frustrated at going to slow, and never need to fire up the motor.

*5. Maneuvering under sail.* I Have sailed into anchor twice, both times were when my engine died on me. If I had immediately available power to get me out of trouble, I might be more likely to sail into/out of anchor and my slip much more often. Currently I could fire up the motor, warm it up, and have it on standby, but at that point you've ruined the joys of ghosting into your slip or anchorage and I'd just be doing it for practice. If I had immediately available power I think I'd sail into my anchorage all the time. You could then use the electric to set the anchor, which isn't always easy to do with much force under sail alone.

*6. High torque.* The above link comments on how much torque these motors have. He is able to stop his Gemini cat in 1/2 a boat length with a strong following wind using the electrics. With his old diesel he said it would have had it at full throttle back and not been confident he could stop the boat. The electric would provide confidence for manuvering in close quarters. I imagine it might help my awful prop-walk issues as well because it would be turning slower.

*7. Regeneration.* While you sail, your spinning prop charges the 48V propulsion bank. I know that there are some absolute efficiency losses between the drag needed to charge and what you can get back in thrust, but sometimes (like when the rail is in the water) you have an excess of sail-power. It would be nice to bank some of this for future motoring. I imagine that sailing regeneration, alternating with using the electric could save a lot of diesel and strip a lot of time off an ocean passage. Especially one that goes near the doldrums.

To me this engine represents NO real downside from a traditional direct drive power-plant and a large number of benefits. I don't foresee a large number of hours motoring silently but instead I foresee see a huge increase in hours sailed vs hours motored. If I could use this to "assist" my speed while sailing in light airs, I would sail much more. If I always had the full power (13.4HP high torque) of the electric attached to the main prop available at a second's notice I would sail into/out of my slip and into/out of anchor much more often. All this and the piece of mind of redundant main propulsion as well.

*Bottom line. I like it. If my Perkins bites it, I'm putting one in!*

MedSailor


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

jimrafford said:


> The lagoon was set up w/ the Salomon electric drive system and a generator. Different set up but same concept.
> I plan to look in this direction when my Volvo dies.
> Jim


Yes, the same concept but with a very important difference: While on the lagoon the propulsion is always electric and limited to the significantly smaller output of the electric engines (small engines to provide a decent autonomy), on the Beta case you have a small electric engine that you can use but if you really need the power in bad weather or in a strong current, you still have the powerful diesel engine, that works like a regular one and has much more power than the small electric engines on the Lagoon.

Overall this system makes a lot more sense to me.

Regards

Paulo


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Hey guys (and gals) check THIS out!

They've got a retro-fit package for those who don't want to completely re-power. Just bolt this puppy on to the back of your existing motor and Voilla! Now you have silent motoring, redundancy, and a 5kw genset (which will run your main under load while charging). I sent an email today asking some technical questions and to inquire about USA pricing. They're currently available in the U.K.

Paulo? Are you listening?

Seagoing Hybrids - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion









*Retrofit hybrid system based on a PRM150 Gear box, 
this can be installed on ANY marine engine 60hp and below*

MedSailor


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

MedSailor said:


> Hey guys (and gals) check THIS out!
> 
> ...... Just bolt this puppy on to the back of your existing motor and Voilla! Now you have silent motoring, redundancy, and a 5kw genset (which will run your main under load while charging). .


... as long as you have that much room between gear box coupling and stuffing box - many boats don't (we wouldn't). Moving the engine forward is usually not on.

Interesting idea, though...


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Well as much as I was excited about this new product I'm afraid it's a bit out of my price range. ouch!!! nonetheless I'll probably end up going with the beta 38... then when I win that jackpot I'll add the hybrid drive


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

I’m perplexed on the issue of hybrid power on boats. Having spent time with diesel electric I know that compared to direct drive, there’s a big loss of efficiency converting power mechanical-electric-mechanical. I understand hybrid cars because they use dynamic braking. This is to convert the car’s kenetic energy back into electric energy to slow it down. Cars speed up and slow down a lot and all the energy absorbed by conventional brakes is wasted. I get that, but on boats we run mostly at steady state and slowing down with dynamic breaking wouldn’t generate significant energy. 
Here we have diesel electric ferries. The reasons for this are: the boats have multiple engines and with electric power there can be different numbers of engines on-line depending on the circumstances. Diesels like to run at a fixed high load so there’s less engines running at less efficient speeds. The second reason is that with diesel electric you have considerable flexibility on where the engine is placed in the boat which can make your boat more space efficient. An example is putting the drive units in pods for better hydrodynamic efficiency.
So I don’t, given the added system complexity and battery needs see the reason for hybrids as auxiliaries on sailboats.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Waltthesalt said:


> I'm perplexed on the issue of hybrid power on boats. Having spent time with diesel electric I know that compared to direct drive, there's a big loss of efficiency converting power mechanical-electric-mechanical. ....
> So I don't, given the added system complexity and battery needs see the reason for hybrids as auxiliaries on sailboats.


I don't know if you are right about efficiency but on the England Barges that use this system the economy in fuel is about 25% and they get free electrical energy. I mean if they had not the system they would have to run a generator and that would increase the consumption even more.

This is not a typical diesel electric system, at least not as in almost all big ships. On this one you work with the diesel in a normal way till you have the batteries full, then you can profit from the electrical engine. If I remember right, for each 2 hours of diesel running you get 1 hour of electrical propulsion&#8230;but not with the same speed.

Regarding sailboats when the boat is sailing the propeller spinning recharges the batteries. I want a hydro generator for my boat, it is by far the most efficient way to get clean energy on a boat. A good one costs between 3000 and 4000 € In this case they "offer" you one with the system.

Regards

Paulo


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## newpbs (Apr 21, 2008)

Walt,

Unless I'm missing something, this system is capable of direct drive operation.

If I had the need to repower, I would certainly look into a hybrid system. I like the idea, even though it may not pay for itself in the long run. I like toys.

Paul


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

PCP said:


> Regarding sailboats when the boat is sailing the propeller spinning recharges the batteries. I want a hydro generator for my boat, it is by far the most efficient way to get clean energy on a boat.


.. but it wouldn't work with feathering/folding props would it? Some of us have spent a fair chunk of coin on such things..

It's an interesting idea.. but anyone know what the electrical HP equivalent is? It's a pretty bulky package overall and most engine spaces nowadays won't have much extra space. For the average 2-3 cyl diesel it doesn't look like a reasonable fit.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Faster said:


> .. but it wouldn't work with feathering/folding props would it? Some of us have spent a fair chunk of coin on such things..
> 
> It's an interesting idea.. but anyone know what the electrical HP equivalent is? It's a pretty bulky package overall and most engine spaces nowadays won't have much extra space. For the average 2-3 cyl diesel it doesn't look like a reasonable fit.


Yes, on this system the propeller that is the one from the engine will take speed from the boat but you know me, on the one I dream about the system has a small propeller and it does not take a significant amount of speed to the boat. It is used on race boats (class 40 and Open 60). The propeller can be regulated to make more or less effort according with the wind and boat speed and you can easily take it out of the water. It makes 500w at 6K.

Regards

Paulo


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Faster said:


> .. but anyone know what the electrical HP equivalent is?


One kilowatt is 1.34HP. The motor is 10KW so it is 13.4HP. Of course this is actual HP at the shaft with no transmission losses or alternator drain. Since it's electric it also developed full torque at 1RPM. Torque is what moves your boat and standard diesel engines only develop full torque at one point on the RPM curve.

Considering the above, I would "guess" that the motor would perform similarly to a 18hp engine.

As for the questions about efficiency and losses that always come up with these systems, may I remind everybody that SAILING is about the most inefficient way to get anywhere? The cost of the mast, rigging, sails, running rigging, winches etc doesn't compare at all to the price of a ticket on an plane or ocean liner. 

MedSailor


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

Paulo,

I just want to point out that there is no such thing as free electrical energy. If you are charging the batteries, you are putting more load on the engine which means that you need to burn more fuel. This is probably slightly more efficient than running a separate diesel generator but it isn't free.

Medsailor,

You are correct about the hp to kw conversion. The trouble with the DC torque curve is that as the rpm goes up, the torque goes down. Also, as the rpm goes up, the load will go up. So the fact that a DC motor has infinite torque at 0 rpm doesn't do a lot of good with a normal sailboat propeller (it is great in a vehicle though) because there isn't that much load placed on the shaft. In other words, the DC electric motor has too much torque at low rpm and not enough at high rpm. Ideally, the torque curve would be pretty flat relative to rpm such as in an AC motor setup. To really dial it in, prop efficiency and hull efficiency would need to be calculated.


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## LauderBoy (Mar 15, 2010)

Waltthesalt said:


> So I don't, given the added system complexity and battery needs see the reason for hybrids as auxiliaries on sailboats.


For a boat with engine + generator an engine that's also your generator may not be added complexity.

These seems like a good idea for larger boats, but for my 32 footer I'd rather install a Thoosa down below and run a portable Honda 2kw generator up top. That simplifies my engine room immensely and the dino dining gennie would be easy to service and replace. Though I'd be under powered for extended cruising.

Of course when I look at a big engine I immediately think of broken knuckles, tight places, messy fluids and lots of swearing. The Honda at least I could throw over the side and pick up a new one at Home Depot or something if it really pissed me off.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

klem said:


> Paulo,
> 
> I just want to point out that there is no such thing as free electrical energy. If you are charging the batteries, you are putting more load on the engine which means that you need to burn more fuel. This is probably slightly more efficient than running a separate diesel generator but it isn't free.


Yes you are right in what concerns free energy but I disagree with the* "slightly more efficient than running a separate diesel generator".*

You could be right in terms of fuel consumption but in practice it is not slightly but much more efficient and I am not only referring to fuel, but also in what refers maintenance costs and space saving.

Even in what regards fuel efficiency you don't consider a very important point: If I don't have wind and I am motoring or if I am motorsailing, with that set-up, I am charging the batteries almost for free (just a very small increase in consumption) because with a generator, motorsailing or not with a regular engine, I will have to run the generator anyway at the end of the day (assuming a significant electrical consumption, with refrigerator and AC).

Also you don't consider that while sailing the spinning propeller will be charging the batteries. Of course you pay that with some speed, but if the boat is not very light and if the wind is not weak I suspect that would not matter much to most cruises, I mean some less speed.

It is not only the fuel for the generator, but the hours of running time (maintenance) and most of all the noise and the discomfort.

All in all this seems to be a great system for someone that cruises out of marinas and has a significant electrical consumption.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

LauderBoy said:


> ... and run a portable Honda 2kw generator up top. That simplifies my engine room immensely and the dino dining gennie would be easy to service and replace. Though I'd be under powered for extended cruising.
> 
> Of course when I look at a big engine I immediately think of broken knuckles, tight places, messy fluids and lots of swearing. The Honda at least I could throw over the side and pick up a new one at Home Depot or something if it really pissed me off.


Have a look:

http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/portable.pdf

Regards

Paulo


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

PCP said:


> Yes you are right in what concerns free energy but I disagree with the* "slightly more efficient than running a separate diesel generator".*
> 
> You could be right in terms of fuel consumption but in practice it is not slightly but much more efficient and I am not only referring to fuel, but also in what refers maintenance costs and space saving.
> 
> ...


When I said efficient, I was referring to fuel consumption only, I agree that it is much efficient in terms of cost and maintenance to only run one engine. I still wonder why anyone would choose this option over a very large alternator if the point were only to produce electrical power. If you want to run electric only, then it obviously makes sense but if the point is to not need a separate genset, this doesn't seem like the easiest option as most people don't have 48V electric systems and it requires serious changes in the engine compartment. It is possible that some people might have space axially along the propeller shaft but not enough anywhere else for that big alternator but I would doubt that this is the norm.

For people who read the Boat US stuff, they just ran an article in Seaworthy about hybrid systems and their argument was largely based on being able to run silently for some of the time.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

klem said:


> When I said efficient, I was referring to fuel consumption only, I agree that it is much efficient in terms of cost and maintenance to only run one engine. I still wonder why anyone would choose this option over a very large alternator if the point were only to produce electrical power. ....


Space or the lack of it? A large alternator needs a lot of space (big boat) not to mention that it is more expensive than this option.

Regards

Paulo


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## DesertPirate (Mar 2, 2011)

It would seem that someone who wanted a generator on their boat could no doubt spend a huge chunk of change and get their propulsion AND their generator in one package. I have no idea what the costs are for this Beta Marine Hybrid, so who knows, maybe it might even be cheaper than a new generator and and new engine. If one had a rather large bank of batteries, it would be cool to just run the electric for those times when the diesel would only be on for a short period. Short on and off use is not in a diesel's best interest.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

DesertPirate said:


> It would seem that someone who wanted a generator on their boat could no doubt spend a huge chunk of change and get their propulsion AND their generator in one package. I have no idea what the costs are for this Beta Marine Hybrid, so who knows, maybe it might even be cheaper than a new generator and and new engine. If one had a rather large bank of batteries, it would be cool to just run the electric for those times when the diesel would only be on for a short period. Short on and off use is not in a diesel's best interest.


I called the Beta rep and chatted with him for a bit. Their engines are in the same price range as Westerbeke, Yanmar etc for a new engine. He told me that the hybird option adds 8-9K to the price. But that includes a separate clutch for the shaft, and electronic charging systems, and a smart circuit that cuts out the generating function when you push the engine near max HP thus freeing up the last 7-8HP for the boat. So, it's about the cost of a generator, without all the extra space, extra maintenance and on the plus side you have the electric propulsion.

The price is acutally WAY less than I thought it would be. I've been following electric boat motors for years and many are more expensive. One motor that I liked that is also 10KW (same size as this system) is $10,000 for just the motor, without any of the fancy generating or redundancy aspects. Other, cheaper and lower quality systems that would equal 10KW cost around 8K from what I've seen.

A really good price for what you get if you ask me, but it's still more coin than I have laying around....

MedSailor


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

*MedSailor :*

_I called the Beta rep and chatted with him for a bit. Their engines are in the same price range as Westerbeke, Yanmar etc for a new engine. He told me that the hybird option adds 8-9K to the price. But that includes a separate clutch for the shaft, and electronic charging systems, and a smart circuit that cuts out the generating function when you push the engine near max HP thus freeing up the last 7-8HP for the boat. So, it's about the cost of a generator, without all the extra space, extra maintenance and on the plus side you have the electric propulsion. _

Adds $9k to the price?????? That's £6,000. Yeeeeeeaaaaaarrrrrgggggghhhhhh! 
I can have another engine for that.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

*Cost
Cost...*

Beta gave me a price quote for a 38 of $12,233 (minus a 15% discoount) and an additional $11,600 to add the hybrid system.

That's a lot of $$, but I would still consider it. I see so many benefits to the system for our boat and how we use it.

It makes for a good debate...but at the end of the day its a personal choice 

.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Rockter said:


> *MedSailor :*
> 
> _I called the Beta rep and chatted with him for a bit. Their engines are in the same price range as Westerbeke, Yanmar etc for a new engine. He told me that the hybird option adds 8-9K to the price. But that includes a separate clutch for the shaft, and electronic charging systems, and a smart circuit that cuts out the generating function when you push the engine near max HP thus freeing up the last 7-8HP for the boat. So, it's about the cost of a generator, without all the extra space, extra maintenance and on the plus side you have the electric propulsion. _
> 
> ...


Probably but you cannot have an engine and a medium sized alternator installed by that extra 8/9K USD (the installation is expensive and imlpies more through the hull holes.

A Panda 5.5Kw generator costs almost 12K *euros* plus 23% VAT, no installation comprised on the price. We are talking only about the generator not about the other electronic stuff you would have to buy separately.

Find some detailed information on the Beta system:

http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/resources/Hybrid-rev8.pdf

Seagoing Hybrids - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion

http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/resources/Package+retrofit.pdf

Downloads - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion

Regards

Paulo


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I also talked with the designer of the electric motor via email. Very pleasant to deal with and very responsive. I would deal with his business in a heartbeat (if I had the coin). Here are the prices for the system as an add on to a beta or any engine of your choice. If you have an existing engine and transmission and can have a bracket fabricated you can save a bundle over the beta pricing. 

Still looks cheaper than a separate 5kw generator AND you get a silent, redundant, second method of propulsion. 

MedSailor

PRICES ARE IN POUND STERLING:

Section 1 Hybrid Systems and components
EX VAT
HEMP1 Retrofit Parallel hybrid system, 10 kW electric drive, 5kW generation
4,400.00

Bkt-150 Mounting brackets based on a using a PRM 150 gear box
500.00

PRM-150 PRM hydraulic gear box, ratios available 1.53:1, 2.09:1, 2.83:1
900.00

Oil-150 Oil cooler for PRM15, includes pipes and bracket
120.00

SC-01 Shaft clutch to provide optional standalone diesel generator function
1,200.00

SM-01 "Smart" Morse control lever 250.00

Radio-01 Short range radio link for speed control
250.00

MedSailor


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