# Violent attack, Cruisers injured, St Vincent & Grenadines, Union Island



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

*Violent attack, Cruisers injured, St Vincent & Grenadines, Union Island*

At 8:40pm 3 October sailing vessel Rainbow was anchored off Union Island at Frigate Island (aprox 12 34.9882 N 061 26.2582 W) which is attached to Union Island, St Vincent and the Grenadines when two people aboard Mark and Christina were attacked by machete wilding robbers.

Christina was very seriously wounded with a huge laceration to her face cutting through her cheek and through some teeth.
Mark was also lacerated but was able to reverse the situation.
The vessel Desiderata was monitoring Ch 66, the Grenada Cruisers Net repeater, and Rainbow's calls for help were passed onto Rescue 1 which operates from Prickly Bay Marina. With Rainbow taking the decision to head to better Medical Help in Carriacou, Grenada, Rescue 1 was able to liaise with Coast Guard, Police and authorities to have the Hillsborough wharf cleared and an Ambulance waiting.
Mark on Rainbow was able to get into Carriacou in just over an hour whilst administering first aid with advice via VHF66 from a nurse aboard SV Bella Blue and Dr Radix from Black Rock medical centre.

Christina is being flown to Grenada Friday morning 4 October, and Mark is bringing the boat down to St Georges.

To make matter worse, after Mark was released from hospital he fell between the wharf and his boat and was further lacerated and went back to hospital for another 7 stiches!

Boats we want to thank for their help last night
We see how important it is to have a radio repeater on VHF ch 66 and to monitor it overnight.

Notes:

Union island is not in Grenada. Frigate Island is attached to Union Island and is, as is Union Island, in St Vincent and the Grenadines.

Rescue 1 is a private rescue service of the Prickly Bay Marina, Grenada, and is on call 24 hours each day. As well as the rescue vessel it provides excellent liaison between cruisers, Police, Coast Guard, and other Authorities.

VHF Channel 66 Repeater was privately donated to the Grenadian Government and is used by the Grenada Cruisers Net to provide coverage to all Grenadian waters. It can also be received in southern parts of St Vincent and the Grenadines and the northern parts of Trinidad including Chaguaramas Bay. The Grenada Cruisers Net supplies weather, advice, and information on many subjects to help make Cruisers' stay in Grenada more rewarding. Its broadcast each day at 7:30 AM.

Mark


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Very scarey. Glad they survived. Were the attackers caught?

That will definitely affect the tourism business. I chartered there in 2010 and was at Union Island.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

I sleep with my flare gun in the V berth and extra rounds. White Phosphorous vs Machete? Ill take phosphorous.. Should probably move the fire extinguisher to the V-berth too now that I think about it..


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Dang, that is awful... I'm glad they survived...
I hope the authorities catch the trash responsible for that attack.

Haborless, keep in mind that the flare can bounce off the target and burn through your boat - water will not put it out, only make things worse. Using flares for self defense should be limited to shooting your target before they get into your boat. And you should practice before you rely on it. Spear guns can be used as well.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

krisscross said:


> Dang, that is awful... I'm glad they survived...
> I hope the authorities catch the trash responsible for that attack.
> 
> Haborless, keep in mind that the flare can bounce off the target and burn through your boat - water will not put it out, only make things worse. Using flares for self defense should be limited to shooting your target before they get into your boat. And you should practice before you rely on it. Spear guns can be used as well.


I think that if one does not wish to use firearms for self defense aboard a yacht, wasp spray is the only viable option. As mentioned, a flare gun is more likely to destroy the boat than an attacker and a spear gun is pretty ineffective in an enclosed space.
On the other hand, wasp spray will shoot a concerted stream around 20 feet and it will disable anyone hit in the face. It is more than painful; it requires professional medical attention, which means the attacker can either go blind or be apprehended by the authorities when getting medical care.
What bothers me the most about these attacks (Bequia, Frigate Island Anchorage, Tobago, just to name a recent few) is that they are happening within tiny communities and yet the police do not seem to be able to identify the attackers, or perhaps they do not wish to?
It is unfathomable to me that the local police do not know the identities of these few violent offenders living in such tiny communities, let alone the persons responsible for the almost daily dinghy thefts throughout the islands.
The safety and security of visitors to some islands has fallen to the business owners and residents (Portsmouth, Dominica and Admiralty Bay, Bequia have established private security groups) as the government officials honestly do not seem to care.
In the seventies, any violence against visitors in general and yachts in particular was not tolerated by the governments of the West Indies, as witnessed by the occasional public hanging for crimes involving violence against outsiders. But I guess the police have to want to catch these criminals before they can be held responsible for their actions?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Jeez - that is tragic. Hacking that savagely? Those robbers did not have a good outcome in mind.

How did Mark "reverse the situation"? Any word on that?


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I am in Grenada and have just heard an unconfirmed report that the Union Island police have arrested 3 young men and that they are on their way to the jail on the main island of St Vincent.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

TQA said:


> I am in Grenada and have just heard an unconfirmed report that the Union Island police have arrested 3 young men and that they are on their way to the jail on the main island of St Vincent.


Yep, confirmed apprehension of 3 suspects. From Commissioner of Police St Vincent and the Grenadines.

Great news 

But they are suspects only and "investigations continuing".

Mark


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Captainmeme said:


> I like the idea of the wasp spray. Legal anywhere, easy to replenish.


Wasp spray to stop a person is a myth. All it is going to do is piss off the guy with the machete and make him madder.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Harborless said:


> I sleep with my flare gun in the V berth and extra rounds. White Phosphorous vs Machete? Ill take phosphorous.. Should probably move the fire extinguisher to the V-berth too now that I think about it..


You must never have seen the video of the guys shooting themselves with flare guns! Even when one of them shot himself in the head point blank it didn't do anything except make some smoke.

Of course if the goal is to start a fire in the boat to made the robber run for it then it may work. So I think your idea of moving the fire extinguisher an excellent idea!


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## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

TQA said:


> I am in Grenada and have just heard an unconfirmed report that the Union Island police have arrested 3 young men and that they are on their way to the jail on the main island of St Vincent.


hope they are the three culprits and not just local, ner do well's, the local gestapo has decided to use to prove how good a job they are doing.

I like the wasp spray idea. guns are more likely to just cause more problems even if used in self defense.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

skelmir said:


> Best defense is to be big, ugly, and carry a KA-BAR on your hip. But the downside is more than just robbers tend to avoid you.


As most cruisers are a bit beyond their "fighting" days, carrying any bladed weapon is pretty much supplying your attackers with another weapon.


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## skelmir (Jul 18, 2011)

capta said:


> As most cruisers are a bit beyond their "fighting" days, carrying any bladed weapon is pretty much supplying your attackers with another weapon.


I wasn't really being serious. I suspect attacks of this kind aren't all that random and the attackers scoped out their victims ahead of time. Sometimes you are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Life is risky and nearly always fatal.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Sorry to hear about these things but PLEASE, not another weapon thread!


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

skelmir said:


> Life is risky and nearly always fatal.


Wait...What? Are you implying..... I'm at risk of dying?


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

I would get something like this pepper spray to have on board. I've had it sprayed on my face for training purposes and it is HOT. It will make a person regret messing with you. I know it works and would recommend it. If you spray someone else, it might effect yourself too but at least the worse of it would be on the other guy.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

bfloyd4445 said:


> same can be said for guns...maybe even wasp or bear spray?.. so what do we do jump overboard?


I would not recommend bear spray. When I did training and got hit with pepper spray, the trainers said bear spray WILL cause permenant damage blinding a person. If it sprays back onto yourself, it will cause damage that way as well.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

capta said:


> As most cruisers are a bit beyond their "fighting" days, carrying any bladed weapon is pretty much supplying your attackers with another weapon.


Ditto for sprays.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yep, confirmed apprehension of 3 suspects. From Commissioner of Police St Vincent and the Grenadines.
> 
> Great news
> 
> ...


Thanks for the updates guys.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

MikeGuyver said:


> The world is an ugly place, deal with it or roll over and be dealt with.


What a sad, sad sentiment.


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Hey now!


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## mikel1 (Oct 19, 2008)

Thank you flying welshman!


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

I didn't see anyone in those pictures that would take a machete to a woman...Focus...
Yes there is a lot of pretty scenery in the world...What I said was protect yourselves and your families.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

MikeGuyver said:


> I didn't see anyone in those pictures that would take a machete to a woman...Focus...
> Yes there is a lot of pretty scenery in the world...What I said was protect yourselves and your families.


As a matter of fact you said: "The world is an ugly place" It isn't.

Scenery notwithstanding the vast majority of the world's population is not likely to 'take a machete to a woman' or anyone else for that matter.

Besides, what makes you think that the young lady in the last photo is not likely to go all Lizzie Borden on your butt?


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## scottie55 (Sep 25, 2013)

The Carribean could be a violent place.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

capta said:


> a very real problem to those of us who are out here right now. We need a simple, easy, legal and cheap solution to these attacks.
> I was in the anchorage in Admiralty Bay, Bequia the night a boat was attacked and the captain shot. The attack in Tobago is only about 90 miles from where I am anchored right now (and where I am/was? headed next week), and last night's attack is only about 40 miles north, in an anchorage we frequent.


Capta, I have a serious question. As you say you are 'out there', obviously in very close proximity to these violent events.

Honestly speaking, how much do you worry about security? Do you go to bed each night concerned that you might be the next target? Are you traveling with family? How secure do they feel?

What is the consensus among your fellow cruisers in those areas regarding the level of threat?

I am really interested in finding out about the realities of cruising.

Thanks.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Well I have anchored in Frigate bay many times including twice this year. I walk around ashore and am respectful of the locals when I do. 

I cruise up and down the Eastern Caribbean and feel pretty safe as I do. 

Sure there are places I steer clear of, usually where there is a fair bit of Ganja trading going on like Chateaubelair in St Vincent or there is a known trouble area such as bits of Port of Spain in Trinidad.


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## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

TQA said:


> Well I have anchored in Frigate bay many times including twice this year. I walk around ashore and am respectful of the locals when I do.
> 
> I cruise up and down the Eastern Caribbean and feel pretty safe as I do.
> 
> Sure there are places I steer clear of, usually where there is a fair bit of Ganja trading going on like Chateaubelair in St Vincent or there is a known trouble area such as bits of Port of Spain in Trinidad.


sounds like Russian roulette to me. You can never be sure of the trouble area at any one time and place can you?


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

James Baldwin's sensible solution is to keep the attackers out of the cabin (clicky-clicky).


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

This is disturbing news. One of our favorite charter trips is St Lucia to Grenada. We've had absolutely no problems in the area and try our best to treat everyone well, understanding the lay of the land, a place where we are the visitors. That said, there are bad actors everywhere (including back home, but back home we have the local knowledge). It is interesting, on the news even on the Cape there are stories everyday of violence, but somehow it is more disturbing when it happens someplace we like to visit.

Any local advice of where the trouble hot spots are, and how do you long time cruisers stay out of trouble in the Grenadines.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

SlowButSteady said:


> James Baldwin's sensible solution is to keep the attackers out of the cabin


Looks great!!! And you still get full air-flow to keep cool.

Also you can be safe inside and squirt wasp spray/ tear gas etc out with the wind behind you.

in this particular attack it would not have been useful because the attack was a dinner time when the secure door would not have been in place.

I think a good way is to have proper defensive things close at hand.

here is a certain boats set up that I may have seen:









CS Gas "Tear Gas" is attached to the companionway with velcro. Perfect position for instant use if the owner looks out into the cockpit. This gas would fill the cockpit making it untenable to stay there.









The Gang Warefare size Tear Gas in a gell form so it can be sprayed into the wind. The gell was invented for use in nightclubs where Security people can squirt one person but not everyone else. Its range is quite large and would get to the stern of the boat from the secure position locked inside 









Even the Duck has his own tear gas in gell form. In bed the velcroed small cylinder is quiety and instantly at hand to squirt up and out through the hatch above, directly into the wind.

Mark


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

> Honestly speaking, how much do you worry about security? Do you go to bed each night concerned that you might be the next target? Are you traveling with family? How secure do they feel?


I've spent four seasons on the Caribbean and in most places I do't give security a second thought. In some places(e.g. St Vincent being one), heightened vigilance and higher levels of situational awareness are wise. Places with more than sporadic violence (e.g. Hugh-land) are best avoided altogether.



> What is the consensus among your fellow cruisers in those areas regarding the level of threat?


Consensus among cruisers? Are you kidding? It's the lack of consensus and broad diversity in the community that makes them such a charming bunch.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

capecodda said:


> This is disturbing news. One of our favorite charter trips is St Lucia to Grenada. We've had absolutely no problems in the area and try our best to treat everyone well, understanding the lay of the land, a place where we are the visitors. That said, there are bad actors everywhere (including back home, but back home we have the local knowledge). It is interesting, on the news even on the Cape there are stories everyday of violence, but somehow it is more disturbing when it happens someplace we like to visit.
> 
> Any local advice of where the trouble hot spots are, and how do you long time cruisers stay out of trouble in the Grenadines.


From St Lucia down to Grenada there are three places I currently avoid plus one I am careful about.

Vieux Fort anchorage St Lucia. Theft from boats.

Chateaubelair St Vincent [ Local Gov. is working to make this a safe place but I don't anchor there anymore which is a pity as the anchorage on the North side is a pretty one.] Lots of ganja is grown in this area. I would not advise hiking without a local guide.

The south west portion of Admiralty Bay Bequia. There is some one who swims out from the beach and robs boats. Also there have been two instances where guns have been used.

I am careful about anchoring in the main harbor in Canouan. There have been several instances of stuff being stolen from boats at anchor. The story goes that it is down to one guy who gets caught, spends a month or two in jail, gets out and does it again.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

TQA said:


> From St Lucia down to Grenada there are three places I currently avoid plus one I am careful about.
> 
> Vieux Fort anchorage St Lucia. Theft from boats.
> 
> ...


Much appreciated!


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

RobGallagher said:


> The myth that wasp spray is a good, or even better alternative to other products that are self defence specific is not something that should be perpetuated.
> 
> But that's just my humble opinion, your mileage may vary.
> 
> That being said, anyone, and I mean ANYONE who has been in the immediate area while "wasp spray" is being used and can compare it to being in the immediate area while pepper spray and/or mace, etc. was in use will support the hypothesis that CHOOSING insecticide over another proven method of self defence spray is just plain silly.


Rob,

I have no way to "prove" which is better and I'm not advocating for either. My first choice was Fox pepper sprays until customs authorities seized them. They did not seize the insect sprays I also had on board. So if you have to cross a risky place and you don't have a can of pepper spray squirreled away somewhere, wasp spray may be the answer.

My guess is that the dude at the CIA may have had experience with both products. He liked the combination of wide availability, spray pattern and range, and relative effectiveness of wasp spray.

As for the links you posted....cruisers are not likely to encounter a bear except in Alaska, Canada or elsewhere in the high Arctic, where large caliber firearms are permitted, even required in some places. Relying only bear spray (to say nothing about some people who feel safe with a "bear bell" pinned to their shirt) would be silly when more effective firepower is available.

As for the Okla. self defense instructor, he's selling something to people who apparently have the option to buy either. Some people will only have access to wasp sprays. Also, most self-defense courses suggest you spray and run away. Running away from a drug crazed guy with a machete whose just boarded your boat is not an option. If you're going to put up any resistance at all, you'll need to follow the advice of the CIA guy and spray for immediate effect and then follow up aggressively with a baton, baseball bat or other blunt object.

I really like the heavy wire grate shown several posts above. I'm going to have one made for BR's next trip through the Caribbean.


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

RichH said:


> I carry something very similar to this: IRISH BLACKTHORN WALKINGSTICK CANE SHILLELAGH BATA 31 INCH LONG HEAVYWEIGHT | eBay
> 
> Walking sticks are legal in all countries in the world ... and you never have to get into inane discussion of their real intent.


Rich, isn't that an Irish three wood? :laugher


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

bfloyd4445 said:


> sounds like Russian roulette to me. You can never be sure of the trouble area at any one time and place can you?


Usually you can, inside the U.S. and abroad.



capecodda said:


> That said, there are bad actors everywhere (including back home, but back home we have the local knowledge).


Therein lies the rub. Getting together with other cruisers is a good way to gain insight into the tactical environment you are approaching. So is calling the Counsel in your own closest embassy and asking.

As far as the value of advice from a CIA security person, CIA has two sorts of security people: physical and personnel security on one hand and security protective officers. Based on my familiarity with the training regimens for both I wouldn't think they know any more about non-traditional defensive mechanisms than anyone on the street. They only know what their training covers and that is quite specific.


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## AnnaDor32 (May 7, 2008)

We choose a suite of options, including avoiding risky locations, bad weather lee shores, and thin water. I've been a pedestian on the streets of many port towns. The line between a 'safe neighborhood' and a rough one is thin. The spice market in Doha was colorful, but we didn't feel it was dangerous. Jacksonville FL did.
In Christianstead, St. Croix, we had a flat tire. The police zoomed up behind us, jumped out, informed me of the low tire, then ran across the steet to break up a wife beating in progress. We had to wait for the rental company to bring a spare tire. We felt vonerable on a rough street. 
The only place that we were boarded by strangers was while docked in Annapolis MD.
We confronted a woman peeing in the cockpit! 
Would she have deficated? I don't know, but she said that I scared the $h!# out of her.
No, I didn't shoot her, she left quickly pulling up her pants.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We stopped in Chateaublaire some years back.. it didn't 'feel' right, only one other boat in sight so we 'checked in' and moved on further down the coast. We've often heard off and on that areas of St Lucia are ill advised. This is the first incident we've heard of at Frigate.

There's no forgiving ANYONE, ANY AGE, taking a machete to another person, as far as I'm concerned they've clearly crossed the line and anything they receive is on them.

When we have cruised the island chain our hosts work hard to get along with the locals. They use the boat boys, including dinghy watchers (it costs little and hopefully generates goodwill) It's not hard to imagine that word of mouth travels quickly and your boat may become 'off limits' for pilfering. Of course whether that scenario would have prevented such a blatantly violent criminal act is debatable.

On the flip side, we've observed cruisers rejecting the boat boys, loudly announcing that they are crooks etc in local watering holes.. equally easy to think that would breed resentment and perhaps make you a target... I remember another incident where, after we had a delightful walk around Charlottetown in Nevis, at the dinghy dock the owner of a 100+ foot motoryacht was telling everyone that would listen that there's 'nothing here'..

I'm certainly not saying these latest victims acted as the latter - there's no info I've seen about that, and seriously criminal elements anywhere don't need provocation. 

The whole situation is one that could naturally breed resentment among locals living with little.. cruisers must be seen as wealthy to them.. even if they really aren't. Many boats are probably worth more than what some of these people might earn in a lifetime. It's almost surprising that they are as generally friendly as they are, and it's nice to be able to add to their local economy. 

It's a sad story, hopefully they have the right offenders and they are dealt with appropriately. It's a wonderful cruising grounds, it would be a shame to have to look over your shoulder all the time. We lock the boat, lock the dinghy, etc. as a general precaution and in 5 or 6 visits have happily not had any issues, or even any real scares.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

ShoalFinder said:


> I'm realize that your idea of the caribbean is sun and waves and steel drums and kum ba ya. The guy holding the machete isn't on a lifetime vacation. Your feelings don't dictate his motives.


Well, being as Mark is currently one of the few here actually posting to this thread _from_ the region, has been there for quite some time, and not to mention has a little bit of voyaging known as a circumnavigation to his credit, well... I'm willing to bet he has a pretty good "idea" of what cruising in the Caribbean is, and what it is not...

Perhaps even a better one, than from some of us posting to an internet sailing forum, from 'safely' inside of Fortress America...


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

Here is an honest question to those with experience down in the Caribbean. Is it really any more dangerous there then lets say our large cities here in the US? Every night on the news there are rapes, murders, robberies etc in every major market out there. Is it fair to color those places as dangerous?

Here in AK, you can get stomped by a moose and I know a couple that ended their lives by being eaten by a bear. But, is it really dangerous?

This is a terrible crime, but does it really mean that it is dangerous to travel in the Carib? Or is this an aberration that is outside of normal experience like a mugging in one of our great cities, or a moose stomping a kid on the way to the bus stop in Alaska. I ask as someone planning on traveling with my family there.

I would never want to keep someone from up here by scaring them with the most extreme tales. Is this one of those or do I have rosy glasses on?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

AlaskaMC said:


> This is a terrible crime, but does it really mean that it is dangerous to travel in the Carib? Or is this an aberration that is outside of normal experience like a mugging in one of our great cities, or a moose stomping a kid on the way to the bus stop in Alaska. I ask as someone planning on traveling with my family there.


In our limited experience it's an aberration. I expect Mark would agree. Under normal circumstances I think the various cruiser nets keep each other apprised of the areas to avoid, probably the criminal activity (mostly drug related) moves around a bit. I know the north end of St Vincent has long been avoided by cruisers for that reason. Whether this latest incident was anything more than robbery remains to be seen, drug related or drug induced?? who knows.

Our friends have been wintering 6 months/year there for 12 years now, incident free. They cruise much of the chain, generally from Carriacou to Barbuda and back, keeping the boat in Carriacou on the hard.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

As someone said, dealing with threats in the Caribbean is not much different than anywhere else. The cruiser grapevine is very effective at getting the word out. Like anywhere the problem comes when you are attacked in a previously seen as safe place. I have not fealt particularly threatened in the Caribbean either on the boat or ashore. If you are going to view all the places you go to in fear, best stay home. Then you only have your familiar fears to deal with.

Edit - just remembered something. When we were in Colon, sometimes described as the most dangerous place in the Western Hemisphere, we did our business, arranging our canal transit, using the local bus from Panama City (rather the $100 cab) and doing some shopping and quite enjoyed the energy of the place. But, we followed the advice we were given about taking cabs, even in various nice-looking residential areas, not anchoring in the designated small craft anchorage, and not being in the city after dark. Two young guys who were delivering a new charter boat to Mexico were mugged at gunpoint after going to a nightclub. And yes, I know that cruisers were attacked on a boat anchored at the boat club a few months ago. There are no guarantees.


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

Seems like educating oneself about the dangers of your chosen cruising grounds is of the most effective deterrents to invasion. A prudent captain should be aware of their surroundings and act accordingly. 
By the way, how many of you sail boaters can even lock your cabin from the inside ? Not many I suppose. Even a barrel bolt could save you from invasion or at least give you time to prepare for one. What ever defense you chose will require you at least be awake before someone enters your boat.
ps. don't watch too many movies, it doesn't really happen like they lead you to believe.


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## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

MikeGuyver said:


> Seems like educating oneself about the dangers of your chosen cruising grounds is of the most effective deterrents to invasion. A prudent captain should be aware of their surroundings and act accordingly.
> By the way, how many of you sail boaters can even lock your cabin from the inside ? Not many I suppose. Even a barrel bolt could save you from invasion or at least give you time to prepare for one. What ever defense you chose will require you at least be awake before someone enters your boat.
> ps. don't watch too many movies, it doesn't really happen like they lead you to believe.


That's a very good point. Item number on on the defense prep list should be an early warning sytem


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## AKscooter (Jan 18, 2009)

"Well Captain Ron did say there were pirates in the Caribbean"


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## ShoalFinder (May 18, 2012)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, being as Mark is currently one of the few here actually posting to this thread _from_ the region, has been there for quite some time, and not to mention has a little bit of voyaging known as a circumnavigation to his credit, well... I'm willing to bet he has a pretty good "idea" of what cruising in the Caribbean is, and what it is not...
> 
> Perhaps even a better one, than from some of us posting to an internet sailing forum, from 'safely' inside of Fortress America...


Fair enough, but you make the assumption that I haven't spent a lot of time there. I lived in the Caribbean for several years and have travelled there many times since leaving, albeit not on a sailboat floating around in nice, tourist areas. I know what I'm talking about.

Get off the boat and go live in the typical ramshackle third-world neighborhoods that are several blocks inland from the nice pretty waterfront. After a few weeks you can tell me all about how lovely life is in most of those areas, particulary at night time.

I'm not saying that all of the islands are all dangerous, not by a long shot. But it is disengenous to put forth the romantic notion that it's all Gilligan's Island and sipping milk from coconuts. If you can see the cruise ships from where you are standing then you aren't anywhere close to the reality of the slum life prevalent in many areas there.

Situational awareness is key, no matter where in the world you happen to be. If you are anchoring for the night in St. Petersburg, FL you will think it's the greatest place around. If you wander a mile inland and sleep in your car in the Church's Chicken parking lot you might discover a whole new reality.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

My summer sailing is limited to my local waters in New England. The job I do keeps me busy in the summer. The dead of the Northern hemisphere winter finds me traveling the world in warmer, less expensive places.

I have yet, in my life, felt the need to strap on a six shooter. If by chance I die tomorrow, regardless of the means on my demise, I die content in the fact that I have done little harm, bought many rounds, and had lots of laughs.

Yes, I have been robbed, lost my share of fights, ran for my life on more than one occasion and talked my way out of some crazy ****e. Those of you who live in fear are welcome to your nightmares, fear, loathing, and extended existence in diapers.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

RobGallagher said:


> My summer sailing is limited to my local waters in New England. The job I do keeps me busy in the summer. The dead of the Northern hemisphere winter finds me traveling the world in warmer, less expensive places.
> 
> I have yet, in my life, felt the need to strap on a six shooter. If by chance I die tomorrow, regardless of the means on my demise, I die content in the fact that I have done little harm, bought many rounds, and had lots of laughs.
> 
> Yes, I have been robbed, lost my share of fights, ran for my life on more than one occasion and talked my way out of some crazy ****e. Those of you who live in fear are welcome to your nightmares, fear, loathing, and extended existence in diapers.


*+1*, and I came about as close to breaking my personal policy against giving "Likes" as I have in a very long time.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

ShoalFinder said:


> Well, Rob. I think your outlook is wonderful. I honestly do.
> 
> God forbid you wake up to find your wife's head cut in half by the guy who is now actively blocking your exit from the boat. Because that isn't some paranoid fantasy- it happened. Days ago. To real people. That's what this thread is about.
> 
> Just because some of us refuse to kneel down and spend our last few moments reminiscing about the good times we've had doesn't mean we are afraid. Far from it. I plan to have plenty more good times. And I refuse to watch my wife die because I am unwilling to fight back.


I kneel to no one. You mistake my solace for complacency. Let your God forbid you corner me. I'll gnaw through your flesh. Now get over it.

Peace.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> A sentiment easily put forth by those who have not and are not actually going to places where these scenarios may unfold.


Such as James Baldwin? Those happen to be pics of his boat. Of course, he has only sailed that boat around the world, _*twice*_.

BTW, Chris. How much cruising have _you_ done? Oh, that's right, you never got out of the Chesapeake in that boat that you claim to have built with your two bare hands. I guess that makes you our "resident expert."

(Now is about the time for Chris to start with the name-calling, again.)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

ShoalFinder said:


> Fair enough, but you make the assumption that I haven't spent a lot of time there. I lived in the Caribbean for several years and have travelled there many times since leaving, albeit not on a sailboat floating around in nice, tourist areas. I know what I'm talking about.
> 
> Get off the boat and go live in the typical ramshackle third-world neighborhoods that are several blocks inland from the nice pretty waterfront. After a few weeks you can tell me all about how lovely life is in most of those areas, particulary at night time.
> 
> ...


I've spent a bit of time aboard boats in some pretty sketchy places, and I'm certainly not "putting forth the romantic notion that it's all Gilligan's Island and sipping milk from coconuts." I don't think Mark is either, he's been around the block, and I imagine he's pretty savvy when it comes to security issues when cruising...

In discussions of these types of incidents, my first inclination is always to revert to my default position regarding the exposure of one's self or one's family to such risk, which is simply this:

*It's just SO much simpler to cruise where the bad guys ain't...*

Problem areas have become remarkably well defined in today's world... In addition to the Coconut Telegraph, resources such as Noonsite and the Caribbean Security & Safety Net keep cruisers remarkably up to date on places one might consider avoiding...

The geography of world piracy, and these sort of incidents against cruising sailors, is really quite simple... With the exception of a region like South Africa/Madagascar, virtually all of these incidents against cruising sailors occur in latitudes within roughly 20 degrees of the equator... It's a very simple formula - with very few exceptions, the further you distance yourself from the equator, the safer you will be, and the constant concern over security will diminish... The odds of one being boarded by someone wielding a machete in a place like Nova Scotia, for example, are statistically nonexistent...

There are many other common sense approaches towards increasing security in regions like the Caribbean, as well... Visiting such places in a modest, low-profile style would seem to be one of the most obvious. We've all heard the joke about not having to be able to outrun the bear, but only having to outrun the slowest person you're with... One of the things that gives me the greatest comfort in virtually every anchorage I wind up sharing with other boats, is that mine is almost always the smallest and most modest of the fleet... it's always nice to be surrounded by other targets far more tempting than yourself 

Unfortunately, this is not the modern trend... Cruisers continue to visit such places aboard boats of ever-increasing size and value, festooned with a growing array of 'toys' and other shiny objects... It doesn't take much effort to downplay one's comparative 'wealth', in this regard, all the little things you can do quickly add up... Don't wear a watch, or jewelry when going ashore, for instance... _ROW_ your tender ashore, or use a dinky 2 HP Honda in a place where NO ONE would have any use for such an engine, instead of zipping around with a 15 HP Yamaha that makes for an incredibly tempting target... In a world where the disparity of wealth only continues to grow, what the hell are some of these cruisers out there today thinking?

In places where security might be a concern, and there's a good chance you are being observed, simply making a 'show' of your concern with security could go a long way towards dissuading an observer from believing you might be an easy target... Even a little thing like _always_ lifting your dinghy clear of the water when not in use, might be enough to plant the seed in a bad guy's mind that you might be one who takes security VERY seriously... so much of this stuff is so simple to do, good cockpit/deck lighting at night, for instance... If I'm alone in a remote spot, I might routinely light up the surroundings with a 2 million candlepower searchlight, that alone might make someone seeing me as a potential target think, "Whoa..."

And, of course, _always_ flying my slightly oversized American flag proudly... Just because, well, _everyone_ knows what any red-blooded American just _might_ be packing... 

This attack is a sad and shocking occurrence, that appears to have taken the randomness and senselessness of such incidents to a new height... No matter how harshly the local authorities might deal with this one, I'm afraid this sort of thing will only continue to be of great concern to cruisers, going forward...

Again, there's a very simple solution, an easy means of avoiding such trouble...

All it requires, is the modification of the geographical parameters of what one considers to constitute _"PARADISE"_...


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

SlowButSteady said:


> Such as James Baldwin? Those happen to be pics of his boat. Of course, he has only sailed that boat around the world, _*twice*_.


I meant you, not James Baldwin. Kudos to him for his security, and you're going about as far as I am, cruising wise (which is nowhere).



> BTW, Chris. How much cruising have _you_ done? Oh, that's right, you never got out of the Chesapeake in that boat that you claim to have built with your two bare hands. I guess that makes you our "resident expert."


As stated above, it appears I've cruised about as many places as you have or will 



> (Now is about the time for Chris to start with the name-calling, again.)


Relax and calm down, you're going to pop a vein. We all realize you are an activist putting forth a political agenda, have at it. I'll reserve any thoughts on you personally for the PWRG


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> I've spent a bit of time aboard boats in some pretty sketchy places, and I'm certainly not "putting forth the romantic notion that it's all Gilligan's Island and sipping milk from coconuts." I don't think Mark is either, he's been around the block, and I imagine he's pretty savvy when it comes to security issues when cruising...
> 
> In discussions of these types of incidents, my first inclination is always to revert to my default position regarding the exposure of one's self or one's family to such risk, which is simply this:
> 
> ...


If you start to take places like Union Island in the Grenadines off the list of reasonably "safe" cruising destinations, then you bloody well better never leave your front porch!
All this idiotic talk of choosing your destinations based on noonsite or some other "cruiser's" information service would never have prevented this incident. I've been going to Union since 1979 and this is the first time I can recollect ANY real problems there. Sure there are the boatboy/mooring hustlers there, as everywhere in the Antilles today, but Union is a tiny community of 2000 wonderfully friendly West Indians who pretty much make their living from the yachts that visit the island. Last time I was there, our friend Tim, offered us his washer at home to do our laundry, and he lives in Ashton, the town nearest the Frigate Island anchorage.
The panic is becoming evident on this site and it is mostly based on a random incident perpetrated by a monster. There is no rehabilitation for a monster like this, this is a broken individual, completely irreparable; he should be put down like the rabid dog he is.
But to take Union Island, or any of the Grenadines off your cruising or vacation itinerary is silly. St. Vincent has never been a pleasant place to visit, so leaving it off ours, not because it may be dangerous, but because I didn't find anything I liked about the place 30 years ago, let alone on a quick stop last year, is no hardship. It is easily bypassed sailing north or south with Bequia only 8 miles farther and a better destination, anyway.
I have sailed to places like the Sudan, Morocco and Saudi Arabia and been welcomed by the locals with open arms. Not a problem (unless you want to count being chased down the street by a foraging goat, when I strayed too close to "his" garbage pile), at all.
There was an incident last year where a bus load of cruise ship passengers was held up at gun point on a tour. Should St. Lucia also be considered too dangerous to visit because of that? An American tourist girl of 18 went missing in Aruba some years back; stay away, there too?
But the reality is that each and every time you get in your car to go to work or shopping, that trip in a motor vehicle is much more dangerous than any anchorage in the Caribbean.
It angers me to no end that these places I love are having these problems, but what parent thought sending their kid to school at Sandy Hook elementary one morning, would be the last they would see of them?
We need to keep all this in perspective and not fly off the deep end, here. It is getting more dangerous to cruise everywhere, but the world is becoming more dangerous everywhere as well. This incident happened at dinner time, not the middle of the night, so unless you want to live your life behind bars as you cruise, nobody would have even had those lovely security bars (pictured several times on this thread) in place, at that time of the evening!
This is a horrible incident and of course our hearts go out to Tina and Mark of Rainbow, but again, it is an isolated incident of horrific violence way beyond the petty theft usually associated with crimes against yachts.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> I meant you, not James Baldwin...


JB "put it forth." I just repeated the idea.



chrisncate said:


> ... you're going about as far as I am, cruising wise (which is nowhere).
> 
> As stated above, it appears I've cruised about as many places as you have or will  ...


Nope. Nice try though.



chrisncate said:


> ...Relax and calm down, you're going to pop a vein. We all realize you are an activist putting forth a political agenda, have at it. I'll reserve any thoughts on you personally for the PWRG


I'm about as relaxed as can be; watching "Signing Time" with my five-year-old, eating a bagel and schmear, drinking coffee, and contemplating putting some of the finishing touches on the reading/play loft I built for said 5-y-o in her room (aka, making the loft _somewhat_ 5-y-o-proof).

Oh, and I'm not the one who starts calling his fellow Sailnetters JrHS names in thread after thread after thread.


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

miatapaul said:


> How likely is it that bear spray would be confiscated? It seems like it would not violate laws since it is labeled for use against wildlife, but I am not sure.


As mentioned in earlier posts, I carried Fox pepper spray for years (in several sizes -- one for personal carry while in dodgy places ashore, one with a long range stream spray for incidents on deck, and two "grenade" types which I planned to push into the cockpit through a small hatch after we had locked ourselves inside the boat). I also carried a Taser for use inside the boat if someone got in and was armed with anything other than a gun.

My strategy on clearing customs was to answer the question, "Do you have any firearms aboard?" with an honest "No". That's as far as it went in 99% of the places I've visited.

I was boarded in Chaguramas Bay, Trinidad by the Trini Coast Guard. They asked if I had any "weapons" aboard, which is subtly different from asking about "firearms". I replied, "What do you mean by weapons". Their reply was "like knives", to which I replied, "Yes, I have quite a few in the galley". Then they said, "What else?" and I told them about the pepper spray and Taser. They asked to see these items and after inspecting them, they let me keep them and went on their way.

In the Caribbean I don't think the local authorities care much about anything but firearms. That's what they ask about either verbally or as a question on a form you're filling out.

More recently on entering Canada and later the EU I was asked about having "weapons on board". I said I had no firearms, but the customs gal pushed back and referred to "weapons" again. I told her about the Taser and Pepper Spray as I was sure she'd find the Pepper Spray as it was in a drawer at the nav. station. I was informed that these were prohibited items and they would be seized and held until my departure. In Canada that was no big deal as I had entered and was leaving from St. Johns. The day of departure the customs people brought the items back and I signed some papers and that was that. In Ireland, I was told they would follow the same procedure, but that I would have to leave the EU from the same place I had entered. That was impractical and so I just gave the Taser and Pepperspray (now almost ten year old) to the customs guys and said they could keep them.


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

Thank you to everyone making this a thread about PRACTICAL advise rather than a weapons debate. I appreciate that everyone has different takes on security and getting different points of view on what to avoid, or where, practical defense (as above) etc is helpful.

Fighting over the rest just belongs in the "sewer" where it goes on every day anyway.


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> This discussion seems unfortunately typical of most of these guns/weapons threads. You have two groups, one saying what they do do, ie actual cruisers and the other saying what they would do ie those with no real experience doing real cruising. The opinions should not be given equal weight for obvious reasons.


Bingo. It stinks because I find myself just avoiding these conversations but I am curious what people like Jon, Faster, Aaron, yourself, Mark, Capta etc have to say.

I think there is a balance to be found amongst all their advise that makes great sense. Something like, avoid some places, be less obvious about your wealth in places without it, be a courteous guest, and most importantly be aware of your surroundings (this one works everywhere really). Have I missed anything?


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

EDITED: Not to join the fray. Just follow the laws and be a courteous guest please.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

AlaskaMC said:


> Have I missed anything?


Yep:
1) Work together. 
We have another situation here, much different, with a local trying for work on boats and he manipulates his way onto boats (how???) and then shows his dick to the women whilst the male owner is on board!!!!

Anyway, every time this dude comes into the anchorage, like this morning, the VHF goes off and we all plot the guys wanderings. Then when he has left we go give warnings to anyone he's visited.

2) In another anchorage 2 months ago a dude swims out from his hut on the shore and takes a few small things, after reporting to Police we set up a Neighbourhood Watch type thing (not vigilante group) and get volunteers who have one hour each at night (I always got the sh!tty slots  ) to cruise the area along the beach shining torches around the water and past the hut.

In neither case have we needed to beat the crap out of the guys, not kill, shoot or maim them. But by working together with the free and legal stuff and the Police we have made it very obvious that one dick flash or one theft and we know exactly who it is and the police will be there pronto.

Who wants to enjoy their retirement with a few killings notched in their belt? Its just not reasonable, or sane, when there's (generally) non-lethal ways to do it.

Or worse: Spending your remaining years in a 3rd world hell hole jail because the local jury wouldnt believe your 'self defense' plea. or because some kid came up to offer you lobster and you blew his brains to kingdom come?

As someone noted, the people cruising mainly have a different attitude to those that don't. And ex-army infanty who_ really _train on guns know they arn't worth the consequences.

Mark


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## jimkyle99 (Mar 20, 2013)

For what it's worth that grillwork on the companionway looks like it wouldn't stop a determined dog let alone a 230lb pissed-off felon. One good pull and it's gong to jump out of its tracks. I would think the companionway board would be a better bet even if a little stuffy.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

jimkyle99 said:


> For what it's worth that grillwork on the companionway looks like it wouldn't stop a determined dog let alone a 230lb pissed-off felon. One good pull and it's gong to jump out of its tracks. I would think the companionway board would be a better bet even if a little stuffy.


The idea is that it's enough to stop the casual thief or opportunist. The violent invader is the rare exception and perhaps the grate would yield after a few kicks or a crowbar. Personally, I think the bars are a great idea and I plan to install them, especially for when I leave the boat for the day to go off exploring but don't want to close it up. As it is, I just leave it open. I don't really worry about being invaded by anything other than mosquitoes in some anchorages.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

jerryrlitton said:


> She still almost died, he was hurt and the perps got away to do this again with impunity. ....
> Jerry


Ummmm. No, 3 alleged perps are in Jail.

They will suffer the full letter of their country's justice system. The two attacked are not shying away from their witness responsibilities and their efforts will make that area a safer place.

Crime in any country can only be taken down by good people doing the right thing. Although injured and attacked, good people will win the day.

Sometimes courage isn't about a .44. Its playing the difficulties of life in the way these cruisers are.

Mark


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## Plumbean (Dec 17, 2009)

caberg said:


> I cannot help but feel that people are not reading the original post. The guy's wife was hacked by a machete in the head cutting through her cheek and teeth. Are you really going to be thinking about the "fear trying to sleep at night seeing the face of a mother whose child I took" when your wife is lying there bleeding to death? "Go ahead, have another wack at her with your machete, I'm sure we can work this out and all live happily ever after."
> 
> I'm one of the last people to condone any use of force, but c'mon now. This was not a situation involving "a few dollars."


Has there been any description of what happened leading up to the attack? To me, it is one thing to be confronted by a violent attacker who doesn't say "hand over the money" first but just starts swinging. Do we know that is what happened here? If it is, I see no problem with a violent and potentially lethal response. On the other hand, if the guy showed up with his machete and asked the question first, it would certainly appear that compliance with his request makes sense. Of course you never know how the thief will react, but resistance up front is likely to get a response from him. I'd rather take my chances and if he decides to get violent after I give him the money, then hopefully I'm still in a position to respond.

So far I have not seen a description about how the situation escalated, nor have I seen a description about what (if anything) was done by the husband that resulted in the attackers leaving.


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## jabe (Oct 5, 2013)

Sailing is not without its risks.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

TakeFive said:


> I don't know what happened either. But in retrospect, it may have been better to let the thugs get away with $100 or so (and eventually get caught by law enforcement) than it was to fight back and subject your wife to a disfiguring attack.
> Their intent was robbery, not murder. Fighting back most likely led to the machete attack. All that violence over a little money?
> I'm sure some of you will slam me for this. Fire away.


From the reports we have gotten down here in Grenada, Tina heard a noise in the cockpit and stuck her head out the hatch to investigate and was hit by the machete immediately. She apparently had no idea anybody was aboard the boat, heard no warning, nor a demand for anything.

"Their intent was robbery, not murder. Fighting back most likely led to the machete attack" THIS IS PURE BULL MANURE.

The intent may have been robbery, but Rita never had a chance to accede to anything and Mark had only seconds to react to save his wife. Unless he had a sidearm on his hip, any weapon or spray would probably not have been handy.
Get your facts straight before you blame the victims, at least in this case!


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

bfloyd4445 said:


> I thought they often killed everyone on board and stole the whole vessel to be sold or used to smuggle drugs? Hey uoi guys/gals out there in the aqrea whats the truth?


Basically, no. Most such attacks are not part of any grand plan. The bad guys see people who look really rich and want some easy money. I don't think it is that big a risk but if I did I think it was I would be into motion detectors, very bright flashing lights and Ride of the Valkyries at loud volume (think Apocalypse Now). I suspect you would have intruders abandoning ship very quickly indeed.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Just posted;
Tina and Marke from S/V Rainbow.
Thankyou everyone for you support. Today, the 3 boys that commited this horrifying night are heading to St Vincent today. We're not sure what they are being charged with, but, I did receive a phone call this morn from SGV from a concerned gentleman saying "one bad apple spoils it for the rest, and they probably just wanted to rob you" Well, my feelings toward this is... 3 boys get in a rowing dingy w/ a cutlass, row a mile, board a boat around 8:15 at night, start slashing w/o even asking for money. We had 200 EC, a small computer, 2 digital cameras and cheap sell phone. We would have given them these items w/o hesitation. I feel they're intent was to harm. PERIOD!!

OK, got it now?


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## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

capta said:


> Just posted;
> Tina and Marke from S/V Rainbow.
> Thankyou everyone for you support. Today, the 3 boys that commited this horrifying night are heading to St Vincent today. We're not sure what they are being charged with, but, I did receive a phone call this morn from SGV from a concerned gentleman saying "one bad apple spoils it for the rest, and they probably just wanted to rob you" Well, my feelings toward this is... 3 boys get in a rowing dingy w/ a cutlass, row a mile, board a boat around 8:15 at night, start slashing w/o even asking for money. We had 200 EC, a small computer, 2 digital cameras and cheap sell phone. We would have given them these items w/o hesitation. I feel they're intent was to harm. PERIOD!!
> 
> OK, got it now?


I got it from the beginning. I'm sure the poor under privileged boys will be properly disciplined and sent home to their parents....grrrrrr

Tina and Marke, thanks for the update.

Maybe out of the goodness of your hearts you guys should consider adopting these poor boys and teach them the proper way to live. I have room out here in the pacific ocean to accommodate them. We could give them the job of cleaning up all that plastic flotsam floating out in the pacific to use up their extra energy. What do you think?
Better yet they could get to work cleaning up the Sargasso sea out your way


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

capta said:


> Just posted;
> Tina and Marke from S/V Rainbow.
> Thankyou everyone for you support. Today, the 3 boys that commited this horrifying night are heading to St Vincent today. We're not sure what they are being charged with, but, I did receive a phone call this morn from SGV from a concerned gentleman saying "one bad apple spoils it for the rest, and they probably just wanted to rob you" Well, my feelings toward this is... 3 boys get in a rowing dingy w/ a cutlass, row a mile, board a boat around 8:15 at night, start slashing w/o even asking for money. We had 200 EC, a small computer, 2 digital cameras and cheap sell phone. We would have given them these items w/o hesitation. I feel they're intent was to harm. PERIOD!!
> 
> OK, got it now?


Thanks for the update capta. Any word on how Tina is doing?


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Well based on some recent sentences handed out by the courts in St Vincent these 15 year olds will not be sent back to mommy.

Jail time is a virtual certainty and corporal punishment highly likely.

This a message from Tina, who is one brave lady inviting people to a meeting.



> Tina here, from S/V Rainbow. With this last thursday's attack on Mark and I on Union Island. I have been in contact w/ numerous cruisers, government officals, Rescue 1 and many other mover's and shaker's in the cruising community. This thursday at The Victory Restaurant and Bar in Port Louis Marina @ 4:30 promp till 6:30. Ule, the owner of the Victory R&B is providing nibbles and offering all well rum drinks @ $5EC. I would like to invite all of those interested in creating and implementing procedures for safer anchorages and fine tuning communications between fellow cruisers. There are many resources we can utilize and expand to make our love of our lifestyle safer in the future. This meeting is to resolve issues, not dwell on past. Please come with positive energies and ideas. Look forward to seeing and meeting you all~~ Peace, love and sandy toes.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Very good news. It sounded like a horrific injury. I'm glad they are doing well.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

ericb760 said:


> I hope that I never get so charmed by sailing that I convince myself that I no longer require the tools to protect myself and my family from situations such as this...Bad things do, indeed, happen to good people, and some people here advocate bug spray to counter this type of threat? I can't stop shaking my head and laughing.


I have read much on the web since this happened RE; wasp spray and it's use and legalities in the US.
The only case I can find where wasp spray was used(repeated in several articles, but hey, this is the web, right?) is of someone accosted in his truck and used wasp spray. He was arrested the next day (not likely outside the US), but apparently it instantly sent his attacker to the ground in severe pain. I have no way to get bear repellant sent to the Caribbean (I doubt it can be mailed internationally) but wasp spray IS available in any hardware store.
Until I hear differently, I will consider it viable as a defensive weapon and you can continue "shaking my head and laughing" until you come up with a better option. Hey, how about you spray yourself in the face and let us know the results, ericb760, if you are still laughing, that is.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Well, as a moderator here, I want to first congratulate everyone on keeping this out of the sewer thus far. I cannot remember a single other thread that has lasted this long in the open. It is a good discussion, so let's just all make sure it doesn't turn into a name calling bit or gun's thread.

I do want to share one real life experience here. Let me ask: Has anyone here actually used Mace/Pepper Spray in their boat?

My story:

We had a house built many years ago and the installer did not put in the strike plate correctly on the front door. SO, unless the door was slammed, it would not latch and a wind could push it open. That is what happened one day. The alarm went off and the police came out. They saw the door open and went in, assuming a robbery was underway.

Well, as it would so happen, I had a vicious attack dog (not really, she was a min Schnauzer that thought she was a Pit bull). She is pictured here -



She went after one of the officer's ankles. He sprayed mace or pepper spray (I have no idea what the difference is). About five minutes later, I arrived and pulled into the back drive. I opened the back door and my dog shout out of it like a cannon. I walked into the back door (not the front) and felt like I was on fire. It is a very weird feeling: It is hard hard to breathe, my eyes were watering badly, and my skin feel like it was on fire or being stung by millions of needles. I quickly got out of there and the officers came around to the back to meet me (around the outside of the house, not through the inside). They could not stay in there either and they explained what happened (Myra, our dog, did not mess with them anymore, btw).

So, what is my point? First, that stuff is quite potent. The lower floor of this house was easily over 2500 sf, and many minutes later, I could not stay in there nor the police officers. So I suspect the stuff would work on an intruder, but my issue would be how well it worked on the victims too? So that same scenario, in a sailboat, much more concentrated, might just have you (the victim) out there with the machete wielding attacker too before long.

So my question would be is that a practical solution for a boat? I suspect many of you would tell me that if it came between the mace and going outside with the intruders, you will stick with the mace. But I am telling you, it feels like you are on fire and it doesn't wipe off. I wonder what the cabin of that boat would feel like after a minute or two? Could you really stay below?

I am not telling any of you what to use or what not to use. I am simply relaying a real life experience and wondering how that would (in real life) work on a sailboat?

One of the things we do is we light up our boat. I mean we really light up our boat. I bought these LED lights from Amazon (this is them: Amazon.com: SUPERNIGHT (TM) 16.4ft 5M SMD 5050 Blue Waterproof Led Flexible Flash Strip 300 Leds LED Light Strip 60Leds/M Multifunctional: Everything [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@41xigQvjk6L) that are on a string and wrapped them on a piece of PVC. They use a total of 2 amps but are seriously bright. I suspect that if I leave them on too much longer, they will put me on a navigation map. I don't necessarily do this to distract the robbers per se, but I suspect that if the robbers have two different targets, one that is dark and one that sticks out like Ohare's runways, they will go for the dark boat. Plus, it sure makes it easier for the 2am drunk sailors going through the anchorage at a full plane on their outboard to see me versus the other boats. And the latter IS a common occurrence... too common.

Just some thoughts.

Brian


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Cruisingdad said:


> . So I suspect the stuff would work on an intruder, but my issue would be how well it worked on the victims too?
> 
> So my question would be is that a practical solution for a boat? Brian


Good point. 
A sailor needs to use the wind and its a good advantage to have on a sailboat at anchor.

The bow points into the wind, air comes down the forward hatches and out the companionway.

If someone is in the cockpit squirting with gas will go into the cockpit not back into the boat.









Security hatch you can squirt through.

The cylinder you see below here is a *gas*. Its secured by velcro to the companionway ready to squirt out, downwind.








This gas would fill the cockpit making it untenable to stay there.









Above: The Gang Warefare size Tear Gas in a *gell form *so it can be sprayed *into the wind*. The gell was invented for use in nightclubs where Security people can squirt one person but not everyone else. Its range is quite large and would get to the stern of the boat from the secure position locked inside 









Above: This small cylinder is in the bedroom and is to squirt upwards through the hatch above into the wind... *so its gell*..

A sailor must use their brain and when filling the boat with gas (and secured their boat) then have rehearsed their move forward to the most forward compartment (mine is the forward head) where clean air can come in, and there is water and a shower to rinse the stuff out of the eyes, nose and off the skin.

So these thiings need to be thought out, bought properly and planned and rehearsed in their use.

There is one other advantage: Surprise. You know what you have squirted into the face of an attacker. You sill have the power to secure your boat with eyes mostly shut as you know it, he doesn't. You can use your radio with eyes closed. Also you know its tempory, he doesnt.

Mark


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

smackdaddy said:


> My take is that if you are below when boarded by an armed attacker - you're pretty much screwed. There are just too many options open to the attacker and too few opened to you (essentially the caged prey). It's too one-sided a battle...especially if you don't have a firearm.
> 
> At that point, all you can do is be that short, skinny, crazy guy from Appalachia and just go berserk with your winch handle. People around the world, armed or not, fear that kind of guy.


The man who is defending his family is a very dangerous man. I'd put my money on the guy with the winch handle. Lots of stuff on boats for a deperate man. But if you just think they are taking a few cheap things, you act calm. Thats the lesson here. Those guys probably cut his wife sneaky without any warning and if Mark had known what they really meant to do, there would be a much different story. He would have torn them apart before they had a chance. You can hold someone off - just swing away. Its the sneak attack you can't defend.

I mainly just wanted to express my concern and sympathy for Christina and Mark and to enquire about Chrstina's condition. Reading the posts I could imagine myself defending us with just about anything imaginable, an axe, a gaffe, a bat, anything and everything I could grab, but I suspect they acted casual and took the cheap shot and swung at her.

Any news on how they are ?


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## chamonix (Jun 25, 2010)

Seems like a one off attack, not a trend. They used what ever weapon they could scrounge up quickly to successfully defend themselves. Nobody died. I don't think firearms could have provided a better outcome. My congratulations to the couple, hope I could react half as well to this situation. They have my admiration.


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

ericb760 said:


> I hope that I never get so charmed by sailing that I convince myself that I no longer require the tools to protect myself and my family from situations such as this...Bad things do, indeed, happen to good people, and some people here advocate bug spray to counter this type of threat? I can't stop shaking my head and laughing.


Interesting, and so very misguided.

You should read the QUOTE FROM THE ACTUAL WOMAN ATTACKED two posts above yours. I think her response and solution is far far far better than yours (which seems to be to arm myself and blow people away).


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

One of the scariest parts of all this is this.... who among us WOULDN'T, as a matter of routine, pop their head out of the companionway upon hearing an unusual noise on deck? 

Certainly my first thought is (was???? ) not going to be about a machete-wielding nutcase. Given that, there's really no defence against such an attack, even amongst those of you who travel armed.. realistically how often are you going to take the time to dig out that carefully hidden weapon before having a look-see?

Mark did well to repel the attacker as he did, keep his cool (presumably) and get the best medical help they could under the circumstances. I suspect he'd be in a wee bit more trouble in SVG had he shot and killed the kid, though the local public support and outcry would probably help..


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

OMG that is a huuge wound!!! That poor woman. As I suspected, no warning just boarded and then attacked her. The article says Mark stabbed the attacker and that Mark was being hailed as a hero in the local community.

Kitchen knife beats machete.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> I do believe that in general, "cruisers" need a reality check on the nobility of sailing the world as a tourist, and the real life impact and reality of what it all means.


So says one who's likely learned most about what he knows about "cruising" from reading an internet sailing forum?



chrisncate said:


> Maybe you can explain the difference between arriving at (insert carrib island here) by S/V, as opposed to arriving by plane?


If you can't imagine or appreciate the distinction between arriving in a place like St George's on a small sailing yacht, as opposed to aboard a cruise ship or airliner, well... there's no point in attempting to explain it to you...

The Dark & Stormies at the White Horse are definitely more savory, for starters...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There are generally two kinds of intruders. 

Those that will scare away, when they learn you are aboard.

Those that won't.

The latter is the minority, but are the ones where you better be prepared to defend your life. They will assume they are defending theirs, as they do not know what you are capable of either.

I've missed how these intruders were ultimately chased away? Makes me wonder if they were caught by surprise, swung the machete then ran? I did read the victim's post that she felt they were intent on harm, but I don't recall how they ran them off.

As for pepper type sprays, I don't believe you can buy products as potent as those used by law enforcement in the US. I could be wrong about that.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> There are generally two kinds of intruders.
> 
> Those that will scare away, when they learn you are aboard.
> 
> ...


And perhaps a third kind: the "amateur", inexperienced armed thief that panics when he unexpectedly finds you aboard and shoots (or swings a machete). These are the ones that worry me. I wonder if this wasn't the case with the 15 year old in question.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> Lol, and I'm sure you leave _this_ kind of judgmental smarm at the dock here in the states, _before_ departing, correct? Only the locals in far flung locales get the "real" you.. _right_? (-:


Anyone who has traveled abroad, or who has observed foreign visitors in their own country, has on occasion witnessed tourists/visitors behaving badly, reflecting poorly on their homeland, and spoiling things for other visitors following in their wake... And yet, to be "judgmental" about such behavior like that of the Fetchers, is to somehow make ME the Ugly American in such an instance?



chrisncate said:


> Anyway, who really cares (again, it's not like you're doing anything other than self serving tourism). Best of luck with it all Jon, you're doing _great_ work out there.. pat yourself on the back for a job... done.


I should have known, I suppose, it would be too much to expect you to point to _something actually posted in this thread_ that suggests anyone is claiming some sort of higher purpose or superiority to what they're doing out there as cruisers, or anything akin to the "great work" you're mocking. I pointed out that some cruisers do become involved in helping out locals from time to time, only in response to your ignorant assertion that such things cannot possibly occur... But again, where has anyone suggested that that they should be 'congratulated' for simply sailing and cruising for pleasure and contentment, and the simple rewards and self-enrichment that comes from sailing to new places, and meeting new people?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Faster said:


> One of the scariest parts of all this is this.... who among us WOULDN'T, as a matter of routine, pop their head out of the companionway upon hearing an unusual noise on deck?


There's a very simple solution that might have averted that kind of exposure to this attack... A cockpit light hung from the backstay or topping lift... I'm always surprised the use of these isn't more widespread, especially in places where security is a concern...

One of the downsides of a bimini or full awning, makes it a bit more difficult to illuminate the cockpit from above...

One of my absolute favorite bits of gear, is my LED anchor/cockpit combo from Bebi Electronics... Incredibly bright white all around anchor light, with a warmer downward facing array that lights up the cockpit and surrounding deck with a pleasing light bright enough to read by, and certainly bright enough to light up any intruder...

Sadly, Bebi has closed up their shop, due to the political situation in Fiji... Hotwire was a distributor in the States, perhaps they still have some in stock. But in any event, configuring some form of low amperage cockpit illumination is pretty simple...










Panbo: The Marine Electronics Hub: Bebi LEDs, from Fiji yet

I'm really curious to know what sort of boat RAINBOW was, no one seems to know... The only thing I've heard was from a friend who thought it was in the range of 35' or thereabouts, so not particularly large...

As one who sails a smaller boat, I have a hard time picturing how someone of any size could board my boat without my noticing, as long as I was awake, and my lifeline gates had been closed (always a good practice in any sketchy area)

I can't help but wonder if RAINBOW might have had a sugar scoop transom, which of course virtually presents an open invitation to someone looking to climb aboard undetected...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I think it is interesting that the divisions on this thread are between those who are cruising or who intend to cruise and those with no intention to sail beyond their tiny part of the US.
The second group seem to blame the victims in this case for being somewhere that is outside the states and therefore a very dangerous place (which Union Island is not), or for being the "ugly Americans".
Safety in the US is not what so many on here seem to think it is. Columbine, Sandy Hook, Aurora movie theater shootings and 9/11 all belie that fallacy.
I feel no need to justify my desire to be out here cruising and frankly do not care what those who are too afraid to leave their feather beds think, but blaming any victim of a crime such as those mentioned above or the incident at Frigate Island anchorage is ludicrous.
This thread has gone from an informational bit about a horrible incident to judgement, laying blame and criticism.
This particular incident, from the facts given by the victims, Mark and Tina, was not preventable. Had it not happened at the Frigate Island anchorage, it probably would have happened at another one, or even another island. These monsters had a boat and there are 4 islands within several miles of that anchorage.
No defensive weapons would have prevented the first hack with the machete, no guns, no knives, no spray. Nobody who goes cruising wishes to lock themselves into their boat with security bars 24/7, unlike many of you who live in houses.
If you are not a cruiser or intend to be one, then you can not understand what motivates those that are. You should not judge them or think them irresponsible for choosing to live a different lifestyle, any more than they should consider you to be unadventurous and boring.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capta said:


> I think it is interesting that the divisions on this thread are between those who are cruising or who intend to cruise and those with no intention to sail beyond their tiny part of the US.
> The second group seem to blame the victims in this case for being somewhere that is outside the states and therefore a very dangerous place (which Union Island is not), or for being the "ugly Americans".
> Safety in the US is not what so many on here seem to think it is. Columbine, Sandy Hook, Aurora movie theater shootings and 9/11 all belie that fallacy.
> *I feel no need to justify my desire to be out here cruising and frankly do not care what those who are too afraid to leave their feather beds think, but blaming any victim of a crime such as those mentioned above or the incident at Frigate Island anchorage is ludicrous.
> ...


Sorry, I but think you are misreading much of what has been posted here...

Certainly, there are differing opinions on how best to view the risks of such an attack, but I'm sure not seeing anyone "blaming the victim", here...

If anything, there seems to be pretty unanimous admiration for the manner in which Tina and Mark dealt with the situation, and nothing but good thoughts for their recovery...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

JonEisberg said:


> Sorry, I but think you are misreading much of what has been posted here...
> 
> Certainly, there are differing opinions on how best to view the risks of such an attack, but I'm sure not seeing anyone "blaming the victim", here...
> 
> If anything, there seems to be pretty unanimous admiration for the manner in which Tina and Mark dealt with the situation, and nothing but good thoughts for their recovery...


Agreed.. I don't see that 'blame the victim' prominent here.. particularly in this case. General statements that some behaviours might increase the odds of incidents, but certainly Mark and Tina don't appear to have been in that category.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Seems no one knows what ultimately got the intruders off the boat. Bet that would be very informative.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Seems no one knows what ultimately got the intruders off the boat. Bet that would be very informative.


Well, apparently, her husband managed to stab one of them after she was hacked in the face. I'm sure that contributed to at least that particular attacker's decision to leave the boat


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Group9 said:


> Well, apparently, her husband managed to stab one of them after she was hacked in the face. I'm sure that contributed to at least that particular attacker's decision to leave the boat


I missed that. I'm sure it did. When faced with a violent intruder, its about all that will work.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

chrisncate said:


> Methinks _both_ doth protest a bit too much (-:
> 
> My overall point is "cruisers" aren't exactly out there curing cancer. It's a "me" oriented white guy pastime, and you're kidding yourself if you think anything different. You're not one of "them" (the locals), you're not better than those who _haven't_ arrived by boat for a week or a months vacation, and you _aren't_ privy to any "wisdom" the rest of us aren't privy to.
> 
> You need to get over yourselves and realize what/who you are. You're rich (by their standards) white sailboaters, and other than pumping a little cash into their local economy while you're anchored off their shores, you're not part of their world and never will be. Traveling is fine and good, but don't get a swelled sense of self worth over it (or you just might wind up becoming the very ugly "mercuns you show so much disdain for in the first place).


Well actually many cruisers bring along books and other school supplies and volunteer at schools while there. Others bring medical skills and help the locals where doctors are not often available. So yes it is completely different than arriving on a cruise ship or airplane where you will not get to know anyone's name or ever see them again. They spend a month or six in one location often and do become a part of the community. Do they become one of them, of course not, but if you cannot see the difference then it is likely a good thing you gave up on cruising. I am sure you would not have gotten much out of it besides a sunburn. It takes an open mind and heart to be able to really experience another culture and if you think that can happen on a one week visit from a cruise ship you would not get it. I have not gone cruising but I have spent months abroad and I know I did not become one of the locals, I did get to experience it at a totally different level than I would on a chartered tour. I have been on cruse ships and yes I am certain the locals think of the masses coming off the cruse ships completely differently than a cruiser on a sailboat.



Minnewaska said:


> There are generally two kinds of intruders.
> 
> Those that will scare away, when they learn you are aboard.
> 
> ...


Apparently the husband grabbed a kitchen knife and stabbed the kid. He fell overboard. Seems to me they likely thought the boat was empty and got surprised and likely freaked out and swung the machete. Seems the only logical thing, unless they were high or drunk. It is one thing to do a terrible thing, but to do it knowing you are likely to get caught and likely to have someone fight back seems highly improbable.


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

miatapaul said:


> Seems to me they likely thought the boat was empty and got surprised and likely freaked out and swung the machete. Seems the only logical thing, unless they were high or drunk. It is one thing to do a terrible thing, but to do it knowing you are likely to get caught and likely to have someone fight back seems highly improbable.


You'd make a horrible defense attorney. You: "So, your Honor, you can see that my client had no intention of harming anyone, he was simply surprised." Judge: "If your client had no intent to be injurious why, then, was he wielding a machete?" You: "Ummmmm..."


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

ericb760 said:


> You'd make a horrible defense attorney. You: "So, your Honor, you can see that my client had no intention of harming anyone, he was simply surprised." Judge: "If your client had no intent to be injurious why, then, was he wielding a machete?" You: "Ummmmm..."


I am not trying to defend them, in no way was I doing that.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Ok everybody - moderator hat here:

Let's not make any of this personal. Let's keep it focused on boating. When it gets too personal or too much of a gun thread, it goes into the sewer. And that would be a shame because there is really a lot of great information here.

Brian


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Sorry, I but think you are misreading much of what has been posted here...
> 
> Certainly, there are differing opinions on how best to view the risks of such an attack, but I'm sure not seeing anyone "blaming the victim", here...
> 
> If anything, there seems to be pretty unanimous admiration for the manner in which Tina and Mark dealt with the situation, and nothing but good thoughts for their recovery...


Those who are implying or flat out suggesting that just by being anchored in "such a dangerous" place as the Grenadines, the Caribbean or anywhere beyond what they consider to be the safe old USA are indeed blaming the victims. That is what I am referring to; they were NOT anchored in Venezuela for crying out loud!


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

SlowButSteady said:


> OR, you could just make it damned difficult for him to get into the cabin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Make it too tough for the enemy to get in, and you won't be able to get out.

Jerry


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

jerryrlitton said:


> Make it too tough for the enemy to get in, and you won't be able to get out.
> 
> Jerry


You engaged an IQ point for that 'post'?


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> You engaged an IQ point for that 'post'?


Don't think so my friend. However I would want to make sure I can get out though those areas if I absolutely had to. For instance, what if there was a fire and the main exit for whatever reason was blocked? What if you were inverted and the main exit was blocked, filling full of water? Something to think about eh? At least on the inside install a quick release mechanism. For some of us it is common sense, comes with experience. I don't think it involves much rocket science.

Jerry


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## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

jerryrlitton said:


> Make it too tough for the enemy to get in, and you won't be able to get out.
> 
> Jerry


you can rig up a quick release from the inside. I prefer to keep it simple to minimize damage.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

jerryrlitton said:


> Make it too tough for the enemy to get in, and you won't be able to get out.
> 
> Jerry


Do you leave the doors to your home unlocked at night?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

My wife will not ever let me install the hatch in the companionway, while we're sleeping. Makes her seriously claustrophobic. Something locked would send her over the edge. Going to have to stay clear of places this is an issue, I guess.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Reality is that quick release is not that easy to achieve if release itself is distant from the companionway. As per offshore racing regs (Cat 6 ? I'm not certain) we are required to have board lockable from the inside with a quick release but quite frankly it would be useless against an intruder. 

Otoh , the metal frame, which I think is damn good idea particularly if covered in insect screen, can be unlocked pretty quickly in an emergency and would not be used at sea only at anchor. If we suffer a catastophic hull failure or inferno at anchor and don't have time to unlock the metal frame then there are two hatches offering alternative egress.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

SlowButSteady said:


> Do you leave the doors to your home unlocked at night?


I lock my doors.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

jerryrlitton said:


> For instance, what if there was a fire and the main exit for whatever reason was blocked? What if you were inverted and the main exit was blocked, filling full of water? Something to think about eh?
> 
> Jerry


I agree it is important to have an escape route in case of fire....but I hope I never end up "inverted" at anchor!


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## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

Tenoch said:


> I agree it is important to have an escape route in case of fire....but I hope I never end up "inverted" at anchor!


inverted at anchor?? I suppose that possible. I guess we better start thinking of installing an escape hatch in the bottom.....


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

SlowButSteady said:


> Do you leave the doors to your home unlocked at night?


Often


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## seafrontiersman (Mar 2, 2009)

So how is the lady? Medical treatment is expensive and I wonder if there is a collection being taken or any help being given to these poor people?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

seafrontiersman said:


> So how is the lady? Medical treatment is expensive and I wonder if there is a collection being taken or any help being given to these poor people?


They both had their stitches taken out yesterday. I spoke to Mark last night and both feel better without them.
I think it takes a day of so after they come out to feel better.

The medical fees including Hospital, and post hosp accomodation has been paid for by Grenada Toruism!
They are now in a room and their boat at Port Louis Marina and all paid for by Port Louis Marina.

Tina and Mark hosted a security meeting at Port Louis Marina on Thursday night which I was the MC.
We had between 150 and 200 people (with GREAT food from the marina all supplied by them!).

Tina and Mark talked everyone right through every detail of the attack and aftermath and were very full in answering questions.
We then had a big group discussion on things we can do. (_Amazingly_ completely different from the BS that comes up in this thread!!).

We found that there are not many incidents like this! No one in the whole group had this sort of experience so it doesnt happen often.
There as a break and enter of a boat last Sunday, crew not on board, so we discussed that too.

One great discussion thread was about having cockpit lights that can be turned on quickly from below including a switch at the bed. If you hear any little noise you bung the lights on and experience has been if there is anything out there, they will get off, or at least you can see them.

Also stuff about DSC use because we have a radio repeater here thats much better than DSC (and Police/Coast Guard dont have DSC anyway). DSC tx's on VHF 70 and defaults to 16 neither which have a repeater so voice on 66 is better.

Lots of ideas came up, lots of great discussion, lots of good will etc. Great positive evening.

All in all Tina and Mark are doing better than one could expect. They are a pretty dynamic couple, Mark quite laid back and Tina quite a go-getter they ballance very well and I think give each other a hugh amount of mutual support.

Good on them!


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## momoparagon (Jan 16, 2012)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Tina and Mark hosted a security meeting at Port Louis Marina on Thursday night which I was the MC.
> We had between 150 and 200 people (with GREAT food from the marina all supplied by them!).
> 
> ***
> ...


They sound like an amazing couple. It is lovely to see that they are doing well and I send many good wishes in their direction for a continued recovery.

It is also nice to see that they are using this experience to enact positive change and awareness. I don't suppose anyone filmed the gathering&#8230;it would be interesting to see the discussion that ensued and some of the solutions that were suggested.

Thanks for the updates!

Fair winds,
Monique
s/v Paragon


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

C'mon folks, lets keep personalities out of this, and concentrate on practical solutions and wishing these poor people a rapid recovery from their ordeal, okay??


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Faster said:


> C'mon folks, lets keep personalities out of this, and concentrate on practical solutions and wishing these poor people a rapid recovery from their ordeal, okay??


You can't when peanuts just extol their BS in multiples of posts. The morons win the day as they so often do on the internet.

Sorry, Faster, I know you try, but the reason Moderators can't control it is they are looking only for trigger words and posts. You are not looking at over all twaddle peddled by sub-intelligence polemics.

If they did this, SN and some other forums would be much the better for it.

Part of Sail Net has some areas where drivel is allowed to be posted. This type of thread should not be allowed to drift into that myasma. Real good can be done here with this thread. Its up to the Mods to work out how much good they are prepared to work for.

Mark


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Thoroughly agree with Mark's comments and Fast's post.

If the BS continues posts will be deleted and who knows maybe someone out there in loopyville might like an all expenses paid holiday.

There have now been more than one thread in General Interest that has been totally derailed by the gun nuts. Time has come for that to stop. If it requires a bit of cleansing then so be it. 

I don't give a fettid dingoe's kidney which side of the gun debate you are on, mention guns in an On Topic thread without a very good reason indeed and you are likely to travel. 

yeah, yeah, I know, power hungry megalomaniac blah blah blah .... save your breath, I've heard it all before.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

tdw said:


> Thoroughly agree with Mark's comments and Fast's post.
> 
> If the BS continues posts will be deleted and who knows maybe someone out there in loopyville might like an all expenses paid holiday.
> 
> ...


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

bfloyd4445 said:


> history is written in the artifacts, detritus of past generations left buried to be uncovered often by accident sometime in the future with no help of the media...


Stated more succinctly as "Pics or it didn't happen!" :laugher


bfloyd4445 said:


> ...Media is an invention of mans most often used today to manipulate the masses...


Paranoid.


bfloyd4445 said:


> ...When you loose a favorite tool overboard that may be found by someone hundreds of years in the future was the media involved? Will it become involved upon the discovery of your tool? Possibly but your tool has by then become part of history not the media that reported the finding


Back to the topic of this thread, I'll continue to rely on crime statistics to determine long-term trends in safety, and local knowledge for short-term aberrations (_i.e._, stay away from places that have had violent attacks in recent days or weeks).

You seem to prefer to wait hundreds of years to discover the artifacts that lead you to believe that violence exists anywhere there are humans. But that's archaeology. It's neither history nor criminology.


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## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> Stated more succinctly as "Pics or it didn't happen!" :laugher
> 
> Paranoid.
> 
> ...


yes....good chuckle, thanks

archaeology is the history of man written in the land around us while geology is the history of the earth written in the rocks around us. The different rock strata tell us earths past and old ruins, archaeological finds, tell us of our past. 
media is the huffington press or the wall street journal


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Well now, some of the more discerning amongst you may have noticed that this thread is but a shadow of its former self.

Much of the garbage, and some of the good stuff too, has been moved to a new thread in PRWG. Some may need to be brought back and maybe some more needs to be trimmed but for now this is how it is.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/polit...rnment/104665-st-vincent-attack-gun-nuts.html


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## BlueMonsoon (Oct 13, 2013)

I have been based in St. Vincent since 1993, before that sailing Europe and the Med and coming from the UK. I saw crime of some sort most of the Countries I went to, but as some on this thread have said, use the information you have, then use your head.

There has always been crime in the islands, yes drugs do play a part, but poverty plays a bigger part. They are small islands and work is hard to come by, but the economic problems that our banker inflicted upon them has made there lives harder, their cost of living has gone up on top of their financial problems.

So when some of them see wealth anchored on there door step, it can be a temptation to some and an easy target. Having said that, it doesn't make it right for them to commit these crimes and in the long run it drives away tourist dollars from the island, which is self defeating.

I'm based there because the Grenadines are beautiful and will continue sailing there because I like the place so much, for many many reasons.

So going back to what I said earlier, when visiting these places and other places like it around the world, use the information you have at hand and use your head to make sensible decisions.
Brian.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

tdw said:


> Well now, some of the more discerning amongst you may have noticed that this thread is but a shadow of its former self.
> 
> Much of the garbage, and some of the good stuff too, has been moved to a new thread in PRWG. Some may need to be brought back and maybe some more needs to be trimmed but for now this is how it is.
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/polit...rnment/104665-st-vincent-attack-gun-nuts.html


Since there has been some serious censorship there should be no wonder there is but a shadow. I think the term "gun nuts" is very derogatory and should be banned from a person with his/her moderator hat on. However that being said I will respect the wishes of this moderator and the person who started this thread. Just use common sense and keep your eyes open.

Jerry


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## BlueMonsoon (Oct 13, 2013)

what is a PRWG?


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

BlueMonsoon said:


> what is a PRWG?


A dark scary place.


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## BlueMonsoon (Oct 13, 2013)

Hmm, I'm clearly missing something here, having said that, I've only been on the forum for 1 day.
What make one a gun nut. I do carry guns and for a Brit, that is no easy task.
However I do comply to the countries regs and sign them in or bond them on the boat. But I have had to use then on two occasions while on passage!


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

BlueMonsoon said:


> what is a PRWG?


Welcome to SailNet.

PRWG is a sub-forum of the Off Topic forum. It's where moderators attempt to keep all politics, religion, war and government topics as those discussions can get heated and nasty. The General Sailing forum is really just for...sailing.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/politics-religion-war-government/

Sometimes, as in threads such as this, it is a fine line, but we moderators are human and try our best. If one group is ok with a decision, another group will demand that we do something opposing it. The posts in question were not deleted, just moved, and not without discussion between us.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

jerryrlitton said:


> Since there has been some serious censorship there should be no wonder there is but a shadow. I think the term "gun nuts" is very derogatory and should be banned from a person with his/her moderator hat on. However that being said I will respect the wishes of this moderator and the person who started this thread. Just use common sense and keep your eyes open.
> 
> Jerry


Jerry, just to be very clear about this ..... there has been no censorship. All that happened yesterday was that I split the thread into two, one (I confess poorly named but see below) over in PRWG the other still in General Interest Sailing Related. No posts were deleted and I didn't do any editing. The simple reality is that discussions that in any way relate to guns, gun control laws, second amendment rights blah blah blah will always end up in PRWG, at least while I am still a SailNet moderator.

ref the name ... mea culpa, it was I admit inappropriate, even though it accords with my personal viewpoint.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Definitely censorship.

You _are_ censoring content by moving _some content_ to where it won't "bother" the majority political viewpoint on firearms and cruising, as well as taking a political side in general discussion while wearing the moderator hat. A thread like this should be an appropriate enough place for both viewpoints to be able to discuss self defense while cruising.

It is what it is.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The trouble with gun related threads, is they almost always end up in an argument over gun rights, etc. However, it would seem the simple introduction of protecting oneself while cruising, even if with a gun, is sailing related.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

chrisncate said:


> Definitely censorship.
> 
> You _are_ censoring content by moving _some content_ to where it won't "bother" the majority political viewpoint on firearms and cruising, as well as taking a political side in general discussion while wearing the moderator hat. A thread like this should be an appropriate enough place for both viewpoints to be able to discuss self defense while cruising.
> 
> It is what it is.


What a load of complete and utter nonsense Chris. This obsession some of you have re your supposed right to bear arms is not sailing related in any way whatsoever. Never has been, never will be. At least not under my watch.

To quote from Wikipedia, "Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet or other controlling body."

Suppression being the operative word. Not one word was excised by me from a single post in the original thread, not one post has disappeared or been suppressed. It is all there, in its entirety, every post, every last word. How pray tell is that suppression ?

I do grant you that splitting the thread has resulted in you having to read though two threads instead of one and I apologise most humbly if that has been an overly onerous inconvenience for you. Indeed so gutted am I at having so egregiously offended you that I've asked one of my fellow mods to drop a quarter into your mailbox when passing. Use it with care.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Minnewaska said:


> The trouble with gun related threads, is they almost always end up in an argument over gun rights, etc. However, it would seem the simple introduction of protecting oneself while cruising, even if with a gun, is sailing related.


Very true. Discussing the merits (or not) of protecting oneself while cruising is one thing. Debating gun rights is something different and almost never ends without name calling and other forms of disrespect.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

The mods got it right IMO.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Chris and Eric.. see the OTHER SVG thread to continue if you must.

Ron


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

The mods got it right. If nothing else, the relocated content advocates activities that are illegal in many (or most?) of the cruising destinations around the world (or responds to such arguments). I don't think SN really wants to be a platform for propagandizing such illegal (and potentially lethal) activities. IMHO, the mods would have been entirely justified if they had deleted the lot.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Mods got it wrong. You can't save the world from opposing viewpoints, and you can't decide what's politically best for everyone.

I'm out, hint taken.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> ...
> I'm out, hint taken.


Promises, promises.....


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

SlowButSteady said:


> Promises, promises.....


Said the guy who _can_ mention guns and his stance on them in this thread via his sig


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

@TDW

You’re a mod so you get to selectively enforce the rules.

You say that you will delete future posts that have the “g” word in them yet you allow SBS to continue to use the word and his “g” message prominently in his signature.

He does it to be provocative and so stirs the pot with every post that he makes yet you allow him to post away while stating that the topic will never have any place here.

It’s your ballgame and you are free to be as hypocritical as you like but how is shilling for “g” control sailing related?


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

SlowButSteady said:


> Speaking of which, I think it's time to put Chris back on the ignore list. I can only stand to deal with one First-grader (and their tantrums) at a time.


I like the new sig! Thanks for deciding to tone it down and make it less divisive on the forum


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

sailpower said:


> It's your ballgame and you are free to be as hypocritical as you like but how is shilling for "g" control sailing related?


It isn't and, from what I can tell, it's dealt with.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Whatever some of our members believe about the moderator's decision and subsequent action in moving the portion of this thread that discusses guns from this forum to Off-Topic, and whether this should or should not be viewed as censorship, I want to make it clear that this action was reviewed in advance by all of the moderators and we are unanimous that this is the correct action. There has been a long and consistently enforced policy that discussions that include the politics of guns is an off-topic discussion and belongs in Politics/Religion/War/Government. 

As members, you do not see what happens behind the scenes, but as a group, we SailNet moderators are opposed to any form of censorship, except in cases where a post clearly violates the forum rules and/or the member refuses to self-edit thier own material. In decisions like this one, we, as a group, discuss the options and generally, as is the case here, operate by consensus. While Andrew may have been the virtually visible face this action, none the less, it represents an action undertaken with careful consideration by the moderation team. 

So while some of you may view this as censorship, we moderators view this as acting in a manner, which is consistent with proper enforcement of the published forum rules and guidelines. You may not like those rules and guidelines, but we as moderators believe that having such rules are critical to coming as close as we can to uniformly fair and consistent moderation practices for these forums. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## flandria (Jul 31, 2012)

Jeff H 's observation is well taken.

You have no idea how tedious it is for non-Americans to witness those gun-diatribes!


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> Whatever some of our members believe about the moderator's decision and subsequent action in moving the portion of this thread that discusses guns to the forum to Off-Topic, and whether this should or should not be viewed as censorship, I want to make it clear that this action was reviewed in advance by all of the moderators and we are unanimous that this is the correct action. There has been a long and consistently enforced policy that discussions that include the politics of guns is an off-topic discussion and belongs in Politics/Religion/War/Government.
> 
> As members you do not see what happens behind the scenes, but as a group, we SailNet moderators are opposed to any form of censorship, except in cases where a post clearly violates the forum rules and the member refuses to self-edit thier own material. In decisions like this one, we, as a group, discuss the options and generally, is the case here, operate by consensus. While Andrew may have been the virtually visible face this action, none the less, it represents an action undertaken with careful consideration by the moderation team.
> 
> ...


I believe that most here want to keep this sailing related and support your running of the board.

What continues to distract from that is when SBS is allowed to continue to post his anti "g" POV via his signature line.

It seems contradictory to your stated goal.


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## seafrontiersman (Mar 2, 2009)

Jeff_H said:


> Whatever some of our members believe about the moderator's decision and subsequent action in moving the portion of this thread that discusses guns to the forum to Off-Topic, and whether this should or should not be viewed as censorship, I want to make it clear that this action was reviewed in advance by all of the moderators and we are unanimous that this is the correct action. There has been a long and consistently enforced policy that discussions that include the politics of guns is an off-topic discussion and belongs in Politics/Religion/War/Government.
> 
> As members you do not see what happens behind the scenes, but as a group, we SailNet moderators are opposed to any form of censorship, except in cases where a post clearly violates the forum rules and the member refuses to self-edit thier own material. In decisions like this one, we, as a group, discuss the options and generally, is the case here, operate by consensus. While Andrew may have been the virtually visible face this action, none the less, it represents an action undertaken with careful consideration by the moderation team.
> 
> ...


For what its worth, I think you guys did the right thing by establishing a separate thread for those of us who choose to keep firearms aboard. It not only cuts WAY back on the venom but also allows those of us who view firearms as a piece of safety gear, like a PFD, a chance to exchange ideas and suggestions without being vilified.

Bravo Zulu!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Goodness sakes, Jeff's cogent post on keeping the politics and inflammatory rhetoric on guns out of this forum is followed, immediately, by an international inflammatory post on guns. Unbelievable.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

flandria said:


> Jeff H 's observation is well taken.
> 
> You have no idea how tedious it is for non-Americans to witness those gun-diatribes!


Being armed, like participating on these forums, is voluntary.

Paul T


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## lowtide (Mar 23, 2008)

I always look at an internet forum like this; I am a guest in the living room of my host, the moderators and administrators. 

They have been nice enough to set up this forum, and amass this information, which I partake of for free. They allow me input when I have something to add.

They have asked me, when I visit, to not bring up the usual contentious subjects; i.e., politics, religion, etc.. They apply the usual rules of civility, which are used in normal polite conversation and discussion.

No one makes me visit, and it is not my "right" to visit, nor do I have any say in the formulation of the rules, I am a guest.

If I don't like my host's rules, or the way they are enforced (right or wrong, fairly or unfairly) I can visit another neighborhood on the web, or open my own living room discussion for people of my ilk. 

Most of us would never condone this lack of guest manners in person, and there is no need for Admins and Mods to abide it either.


'


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I'm an american. Sick to death of the guns politics discussion. Leaving the gun discussion off topic is the only thing making it possible for me to follow this thread.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> *Violent attack, Cruisers injured, St Vincent & Grenadines, Union Island*
> 
> At 8:40pm 3 October sailing vessel Rainbow was anchored off Union Island at Frigate Island (aprox 12 34.9882 N 061 26.2582 W) which is attached to Union Island, St Vincent and the Grenadines when two people aboard Mark and Christina were attacked by machete wilding robbers.
> 
> ...


Just went back to read this again. I assume it was posted as a "heads up" for others in general or in that specific area? The fact that some replies were related to methods of defense, flares, sprays, and other things is no surprise to me.

I just think some of the reaction to "other things" was a bit overblown.

As always, just my opinion, which is always right, and offered at no cost.

Paul T


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

BlueMonsoon said:


> Hmm, I'm clearly missing something here, having said that, I've only been on the forum for 1 day.
> What make one a gun nut. I do carry guns and for a Brit, that is no easy task.
> However I do comply to the countries regs and sign them in or bond them on the boat. But I have had to use then on two occasions while on passage!


However in the defence of this forum your post will perhaps be better received here...
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/politi...-gun-nuts.html

Jerry


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Don't care how dear the subject is to anyone's heart .... any and all posts that are gun related will be deleted. Holidays will result from multiple infractions. 

Earlier on, someone questioned why non gun self defence related posts were also moved. Simple .... do you have any idea how long it took to clean up that ****efight ? I was not going to pick and choose between each and every post some of which may have been borderline OK. I could have spent twice as much time cleaning up the mess or I could have cracked open a beer and BBQ'd those prawns and squid we were having for dinner. Guess what ? 



Thats the price you pay for interjecting bang bang shoot 'em up nonsense into a sailing forum.


Post copied to the OT thread.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

tdw said:


> That's the price you pay for interjecting bang bang shoot 'em up nonsense into a sailing forum.


That's the price SOME pay but apparently not the special princess.

C'est la vie.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

Andrew, I do think you are a bit overboard here. I just referred someone to the "gun nuts" thread you banned us to. The 3 letter word nor anything related to it was ever mentioned. I know in your mind you are just doing a thankless job (Yes it is thankless) however deleting my last post was a bit much. the "bang bang shoot 'em up nonsense" stuff is a bit over centre in my opinion. Other than that, you are doing a stellar job my friend. 

Jerry


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

tdw said:


> thats the price you pay for interjecting bang bang shoot 'em up nonsense into a sailing forum *that is in the process of discussing various methods of self defense on board a boat*.


fify


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Ya know what's funny ( or sad ) is that since the spilt this one has continued pretty much on the same path for the last couple day, almost to the point it looks no different than it's evil twin in the dungen.

Maybe it's just me.

Anyhow, pretty sad event for the cruisers, hope they can at least recover phyically, sounds like some really nasty injuries, emotional it sound it's going to be a wee bit tougher.

I suppose the only way to void something like this is to be very vigilant in your travels, the same as you would driving in LA, Detroit, DC etc,etc.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

jerryrlitton said:


> Andrew, I do think you are a bit overboard here. I just referred someone to the "gun nuts" thread you banned us to. The 3 letter word nor anything related to it was ever mentioned. I know in your mind you are just doing a thankless job (Yes it is thankless) however deleting my last post was a bit much. the "bang bang shoot 'em up nonsense" stuff is a bit over centre in my opinion. Other than that, you are doing a stellar job my friend.
> Jerry


Agreed. Post restored.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

tdw said:


> Agreed. Post restored.


Thank you Andrew.

Jerry


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

BlueMonsoon said:


> Hmm, I'm clearly missing something here, having said that, I've only been on the forum for 1 day.
> What make one a xxx nut. I do carry xxxx and for a Brit, that is no easy task.
> However I do comply to the countries regs and sign them in or bond them on the boat. But I have had to use then on two occasions while on passage!


Blue, I tried to answer your question of " what is a xxx nut?" However, it appears my post was deleted by the moderators. I will post my answer on the "off Topic" > "Politics, etc." page. You have to become a member to access it, but registering is easy and it is great entertainment, kind of like watching the lions at feeding time. 

Paul T


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

dabnis said:


> Blue, I tried to answer your question of " what is a xxx nut?" However, it appears my post was deleted by the moderators. I will post my answer on the "off Topic" > "Politics, etc." page. You have to become a member to access it, but registering is easy and it is great entertainment, kind of like watching the lions at feeding time. Paul T


Not deleted, moved.

Hey guess what Dabs .... if he/she has a User Name there is a very slim chance , roughly 99.999% repeating, that they are already registered.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> Not deleted, moved.
> 
> Hey guess what Dabs .... if he/she has a User Name there is a very slim chance , roughly 99.999% repeating, that they are already registered.


Oh my, why didn't I think of that, just trying to boost your membership. 

Paul T


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

dabnis said:


> Oh my, why didn't I think of that, just trying to boost your membership.
> 
> Paul T


I guess I was thinking about some prior discussion about non-members not being able to access "Off Topic"?

Why is that?

Paul T


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

dabnis said:


> I guess I was thinking about some prior discussion about non-members not being able to access "Off Topic"?
> 
> Why is that?


My guess? It's because there is enough trolling in there already with members who joined up (at one point at least) for the sailing part of the website. Imagine how feral it would get if any old troll, having no connection whatsoever to the sailing side of the forum, could get in and spew their spite.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

BentSailor said:


> My guess? It's because there is enough trolling in there already with members who joined up (at one point at least) for the sailing part of the website. Imagine how feral it would get if any old troll, having no connection whatsoever to the sailing side of the forum, could get in and spew their spite.


Could be? However, somebody could become a member and not visit anything else but "off topic" & PRWG? Seems to me if the owners or administrators don't like what is discussed on Off Topic or PRWG, they could just do away with it.

I joined Sail Net in 2007. Until a bit ago, I seldom, if ever, visited those sites.
However, now I find them very entertaining and sometimes interesting.

Maybe the Moderators could allow each member just one post per day/week/month to weed out the riff raff? 

Paul T


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

dabnis said:


> Could be? However, somebody could become a member and not visit anything else but "off topic" & PRWG?


They could, but in practice that rarely happens. Last person who I recall having no (discernable) connection to sailing whatsoever who posted only in the Off-Topic / PWRG was RAGNAR... and he's been on self-imposed exile for some time. Like the possibility of civil, rational, and enlightened discussion of hot topics on the Internet, what is theoretically possible tends to never happen in practice 

That said, this is really off topic now. If you'd like to discuss it further, I'm more than happy to join you in an off topic thread on the matter. Lets not derail this thread with the subject.
--
*On Topic:*
Has there been any news I missed on the charging/prosecution of the culprits?


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

BentSailor said:


> ...
> Has there been any news I missed on the charging/prosecution of the culprits?


I was wondering about that myself.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

BentSailor said:


> --
> *On Topic:*
> Has there been any news I missed on the charging/prosecution of the culprits?


3 Fifteen year old have been charged. The alledged main dud has 4 charges but I dont know what they are yet.

Mark


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Much appreciated, MarkofSeaLife.


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

As I walked by the "Charter in St Vincent and Grenada" guy at the Annapolis sb show I felt for him. I could almost sense his worry that someone will walk up and ask about the incident. He did ask me if i ever considered.....which I cut him off with, yes I have and had the time of my life. Bequia, PSV and all.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

dabnis said:


> I guess I was thinking about some prior discussion about non-members not being able to access "Off Topic"?Why is that?
> Paul T


Dabs, I'm not sure to be honest but I believe that Off Topic posts simply do not appear for non members or for a member not signed it. I'd log out and try it myself but I can never remember my password to get back in.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I did log off, indeed no "Off Topic" forum section is visible. Also, any such lurkers cannot use posted links and don't see attached pics so access is fairly limited.

So true lurkers only see the sailing related forums, but a simple login opens everything up. 

Incidentally, just now there were 104 members logged in, and 549 "guests", presumably lurkers, though some of those might be those mysterious non-spamming spammer signups... 

And finally.. back to the original topic, wondering if there's any further followup on events at Union Island???


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Faster said:


> And finally.. back to the original topic, wondering if there's any further followup on events at Union Island???


Latest info from Mark 


MarkofSeaLife said:


> 3 Fifteen year old have been charged. The alledged main dud has 4 charges but I dont know what they are yet.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> Dabs, I'm not sure to be honest but I believe that Off Topic posts simply do not appear for non members or for a member not signed it. I'd log out and try it myself but I can never remember my password to get back in.


Andrew, thanks for the reply. So as to not muddy the waters here, I will post my further questions on "Off Topic".

Thanks, Paul T


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## WGEwald (Jun 2, 2014)

tdw said:


> If the BS continues posts will be deleted ...


Noticed that but quotes of deleted posts remain, leaving some confusion.

Also the responses to deleted posts were even worse in a couple of cases. :-(


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> 3 Fifteen year old have been charged. The alledged main dud has 4 charges but I dont know what they are yet.
> 
> Mark


All three of them? Fifteen years old? Wow.

Any word of the people on the boat who got cut up and stabbed?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Group9 said:


> All three of them? Fifteen years old? Wow.
> 
> Any word of the people on the boat who got cut up and stabbed?


Yes, I saw Christina and Mark about two months ago and they were fine. She is a real trouper, greta positive outlook. There is some residual thing with her teeth that needs more surgery, if I remember rightly. The scar is now a year old and nicely blending into her beautiful face as a character line.
Mark is fine. His scars are just battle scars of a well rounded sailor.
The boat is fine and they extol the virtues of cockpit lights that can be switched on from below so if you hear a movement above you don,t stick your head up into darkness but switch on a light.

Christina and Mark have been back to SVG a number of times to help the tourism side of the islands economy. Realising that it benefits all. I think its a wonderful thing to do (I just avoid the place!) and it shows these are pretty damn good people.

Lastly, we discussed the thing about guns and blowing any intruder off your decks with some big macho gun like a B class TV show. Again they said that if they had guns and had shot the masked attacker they would not have known he was a kid. Also they may have been treated very differently by the authorities.
The kid is/was totally screwed up and the islanders knew it before the attack... But now he can get help. He's just a kid. He now has a chance to learn and grow to become a good citizen. If he does or not is up to him. At least he was given the chance of life when he disregarded others lives.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

flyingwelshman said:


> I am really interested in finding out about the realities of cruising.
> 
> Thanks.


Here is my reality: Pretty places cease to be attractive cruising grounds when the locals start hacking visitors into small pieces with machetes.

Its a big world. There are lots of pretty places. Many of them completely deserted. Ergo no risk of unpleasant encounters with blade wielding psychos.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Folks, this 'old' thread, since resurrection, took little time to drift into the predictable. This incident has passed, those affected recovered, some good ideas and pointers have been provided. We'll close the thread on that basis.

For those bits of wheat that got caught up in the chaff that's been cleaned out, my apologies.


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