# European sailboats ( especially Contest, Sigma, Etap... )



## rcoles (Sep 16, 2010)

I am still looking for my next partner... I am attracted by a Bristol 35.5 and a Contest 36. ( way more $ !)
I am a bit leary about the fluidity - or the easyness ) to resell a boat which is not very known in the USA. Contest is made in the Netherlands and its rep is in Vancouver. Etap was made in Belgium and is r3epresented in the North East. 
So basically, Contest is not very well known. Does this present a handicap when I'll try to resell her in say 12 years? Then a Bristol would be more appropriate. 
Thank you!
Note: I am still looking at a Ericson 38 and a First 37 and a CC Landfall...
Why did I sell my Carter ?


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

The Contest line was built by Conyplex to typically stout Scandinavian guidelines. There are at least *three* 36' Contests by two different designers, and they vary by 60 points on the PHRF scale. The wing keel version is painfully slow and (one suspects) makes leeway like a haystack.

That's the impression I've gotten researching Contests: all their boats are well-found and comfortable in a seaway; but some sail moderately well, while others (like the Contest 31, SA/D=11) are out-and-out dogs. Woof. Moo. I'd want a sea trial in both light winds and 25 kts before buying one.

Soory to say, forget resale value. Obscure boats may suffer on resale, but they should (should!) also be cheaper when you buy one. Choose what you can afford to purchase _and keep _that makes you happy. When you sell it, take your beating like a man.  _Appreciation_ of your boat counts for more than _depreciation_.

Etaps are well-regarded, but that's all I know of them. Foam-cored and unsinkable, aren't they?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Technically, they are double-hulled and have a foam filled space between the two.


bobmcgov said:


> Etaps are well-regarded, but that's all I know of them. Foam-cored and unsinkable, aren't they?


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## rcoles (Sep 16, 2010)

Thanks! SA/D of the Bristol is 15.9 with 41% ballast/D
For the Contest, we get 16.9 with 42% Ballast/D
Of course, I can not compare lateral area / anti-drift area vs wl. 
I really like the Contest, beautiful joinery... but very very pri$ey !

As a matter of comparaison, http://cruisingresources.com /Ericson_38_%281980_-_1990%29
must have made a blunt mistake for the E38! It seems they do not include ballast in their displacement! ( do they inflate it ?)


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Here's a link to better numbers on the Ericson. ERICSON 38 Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com
And here is another link that might help. Sail Calculator Pro v3.53 - 2000+ boats
And this link is for Yachtsnet UK, a brokerage that keeps all their pics and info in their archives here. Archive boat data from Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

I think the foam between the inner and outer hull of the Etap will absorb moisture and therefore weight over the years.

Contest is a solid well built boat - as posted some sail better than others.

Sadlers, designed by David Sadler (designer of Contessa 32) and Martin Sadler are well respected in the UK and good sailers all.

I don't think it makes much difference to resale - a well informed buyer will research the boat if less well known. And at the risk of ruffling feathers I think a lot of European boats are better built and designed than many North American built boats.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

I've sailed on an ETAP 30 for a year and a half and we did quite well in our local fleet. Winning most races and the occasional 2nd and 3rd. I can't give you any feedback on the 38 though.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

bobmcgov said:


> The Contest line was built by Conyplex to typically stout Scandinavian guidelines. There are at least *three* 36' Contests by two different designers, and they vary by 60 points on the PHRF scale. The wing keel version is painfully slow and (one suspects) makes leeway like a haystack.
> 
> That's the impression I've gotten researching Contests: all their boats are well-found and comfortable in a seaway; but some sail moderately well, while others (like the Contest 31, SA/D=11) are out-and-out dogs. Woof. Moo. I'd want a sea trial in both light winds and 25 kts before buying one.
> 
> ...


Contest have in Europe a very high resale value. It is not an obscure boat but one of the most well built and seaworty boat ever built. The company still exists (and that says a lot about the quality of their boats) and still makes beautiful and very expensive bluewater boats. This is a typical Dutch boat, that can be compared to Halberg Rassy, not in its design, but in its quality, and that is especially true with older boats. I think the new ones are even more expensive

Contest Yachts | Home

I think, without looking at anything, that older Contest are slightly faster than HR, but they would be considered slow boats by today's parameters. Older Contest were designed by Dick Zall, a very good Dutch designer. These boats, even with 36ft, are really bluewater boats. There are two 36ft, one that was built from 1974 to 1981 and other from 1984 to 1994. The first one is an old design, but the second one is a beautiful boat, designed already with the shape that would be a trademark for all Contests for almost 20 years. If you are talking about one of the last, than it is natural that the boat cost still good money . It is a very good boat, with a classical line .

http://www.contestyachts.com/media/938/contest-36s.pdf

Contest 36s | Dick Zaal Yacht Design

You have active British and Duch Contest Clubs owners:

Home

Contest Yacht Owners Club

You can ask them about that boat, I am sure they will be glad to help.

Regards

Paulo


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Not sure about the US numbers, but importing a non North American built boat into Canada will cost an additional 9.5% duty. If you're buying new I suppose that's in the initial price.. if you're buying used and crossing the border then you'll get hit with the extra..

Nearly 10% could be what makes your decision, all other things being equal, between a foreign boat and a domestic one.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

PCP said:


> Contest have in Europe a very high resale value. It is not an obscure boat but one of the most well built and seaworty boat ever built. The company still exists (and that says a lot about the quality of their boats) and still makes beautiful and very expensive bluewater boats. This is a typical Dutch boat, that can be compared to Halberg Rassy, not in its design, but in its quality, and that is especially true with older boats. I think the new ones are even more expensive
> 
> Contest Yachts | Home
> 
> ...


They are obscure in North America, particularly on the West Coast of the US. That is where the prospective buyer is, and where sale/resale price will be determined. RColes is knowledgeable about sailboats, yet he came here for opinions because Contests are not frequent on the docks. If he wants a fair resale price, he is welcome to sail his Contest to Europe to sell it, where the boat will be appreciated and fetch a higher price.

In the US, you either wait years for the rare buyer who knows and values the brand, or you accept a price discount. *shrug* How many Europeans really know Morris Yachts and would be willing to pay premium for them -- over and above a known European quantity like Bavaria?

Look, I'm a huge fan of Scandinavian boats little known in the US -- Albins are my favorites, along with Omega, Scanmar, Sweden Yachts, and English permutations of Nordic design like SHE and Sigma. And of course Contessa -- but Contessas were built in North America for a while, they are a famous name much written about by Americans (Kretschmer, Aebi), and everyone knows a Contessa 32 survived the '79 Fastnet when larger yachts did not. *No one* knows a SHE of similar size also finished that race in good form. So even in Europe, Contessas sell quicker & fetch higher prices than SHEs -- the Fame Premium. Here in the US, the Contessa 32 commonly sells for $35-40k USD; the similar Albin Ballad sells for under $12,000 -- commonly $8,000, and I tried to buy one in Seattle for $1000 USD, no kidding. This same boat has been listed at $48k in Denmark.

So don't get your back up, dude. "Obscure" is not an indictment of Conyplex or Contest or their yachts (tho their early product line _was_ uneven and they _did_ build some dogs), but rather a commentary on how ignorant we in the US are of many old, established, and well-regarded builders in other parts of the world. And how that affects sale and resale prices.

(And vice versa. I'm sure the worthies present could rattle off dozens of boutique North American sailboat marques that have been building top-notch craft for 100 years -- and you would never have heard of most.)


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

The prospective buyer's profile says he cruises Long Island. I think it is located on the East Coast.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

mitiempo said:


> The prospective buyer's profile says he cruises Long Island. I think it is located on the East Coast.


Whoops! My bad. For some reason, Vancouver/Tacoma stuck in my head. Bleed-over from another thread about importing boats from Canada. But the case remains the same: Contests are about as cherished in Long Island as Cascades are in Lisbon.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

bobmcgov said:


> ..
> In the US, you either wait years for the rare buyer who knows and values the brand, or you accept a price discount. *shrug* How many Europeans really know Morris Yachts and would be willing to pay premium for them -- over and above a known European quantity like Bavaria?
> 
> ..


Dude,

Here everybody knows about Morris yachts. We like quality boats particularly the ones that are still in production. Their boats particularly the Classic line has been sail tested by almost all European Magazines.

Regards

Paulo


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I think it might be a smaller world than some think. Whether good or bad, boats are known throughout the civilized world.


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## rcoles (Sep 16, 2010)

Looking to sail her on Long Island Sound, NY. I just let go a Carter 33 (Belwood NY - Restoration and fine woodworking ) . I should not have departed from her. She sailed "solo" to the Azores and now is en route to the Med... Just a IOR boat - a bit too crazy for me growing older...
My real wish would be an OVNI or a TRSBAL... but again who would know that on this side of the pond. Plus, electrolysis in New York's marina... .. ..
The boat is in Annapolis. I thank Bob for inciting me in reducing the price since it is an obscure manufacturer. 
A bit like a CS36 made in Canada. I look at one. Price was just about too high. But worse, the joinery was not up to my standard. And my best mate ( wink ) did not like the claustrophobic feeling of the peak cabin.
A Tartan 37 or a Ericson 38 or Bristol 35.5 (1982) would be my other options...
But again, not the same quality of construction. 
Crusader Yacht Sales (Annapolis, MD)


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## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

Bob,
I agree with most of what you say, however have a few comments (see below).



bobmcgov said:


> They are obscure in North America, particularly on the West Coast of the US. That is where the prospective buyer is, and where sale/resale price will be determined. RColes is knowledgeable about sailboats, yet he came here for opinions because Contests are not frequent on the docks. If he wants a fair resale price, he is welcome to sail his Contest to Europe to sell it, where the boat will be appreciated and fetch a higher price.
> 
> In the US, you either wait years for the rare buyer who knows and values the brand, or you accept a price discount. *shrug* How many Europeans really know Morris Yachts and would be willing to pay premium for them -- over and above a known European quantity like Bavaria?


I think many Europeans know Morris Yachts, but You're right, we're not buying loads of them.



> Look, I'm a huge fan of Scandinavian boats little known in the US -- Albins are my favorites, along with Omega, Scanmar, Sweden Yachts, and English permutations of Nordic design like SHE and Sigma. And of course Contessa -- but Contessas were built in North America for a while, they are a famous name much written about by Americans (Kretschmer, Aebi), and everyone knows a Contessa 32 survived the '79 Fastnet when larger yachts did not. *No one* knows a SHE of similar size also finished that race in good form. So even in Europe, Contessas sell quicker & fetch higher prices than SHEs -- the Fame Premium. Here in the US, the Contessa 32 commonly sells for $35-40k USD; the similar Albin Ballad sells for under $12,000 -- commonly $8,000, and I tried to buy one in Seattle for $1000 USD, no kidding. This same boat has been listed at $48k in Denmark.


I honestly believe you've seen the price in Danish Kroner, which is pretty close to $8k, which is what an Albin Vega could have brought you a few years ago, but I doubt today - A Ballad would be twice that.



> So don't get your back up, dude. "Obscure" is not an indictment of Conyplex or Contest or their yachts (tho their early product line _was_ uneven and they _did_ build some dogs), but rather a commentary on how ignorant we in the US are of many old, established, and well-regarded builders in other parts of the world. And how that affects sale and resale prices.
> 
> (And vice versa. I'm sure the worthies present could rattle off dozens of boutique North American sailboat marques that have been building top-notch craft for 100 years -- and you would never have heard of most.)


[/QUOTE]
I agree that they built some dogs - many of the Contests are built as two half-hulls and then joined together - the first 36 also had issues with keel fastenings, I would also argue that most of them are not fast boats by any stretch of the imagination (too slow for me).


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

"My real wish would be an OVNI or a TRSBAL..."

TRSBAL?

The Contest you linked to looks pretty good. Nice large aft double. Except for the upholstery color in the main cabin I like it.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Hey, Rcoles, the boat you posted is not the Contest 36ft (as you have said) but the 35ft:

Crusader Yacht Sales (Annapolis, MD)

So, it is this one:

http://www.contestyachts.com/media/936/contest-35s.pdf

Contest 35s | Dick Zaal Yacht Design

Also designed by Dick Zall (1987). Both boats coexisted at the same time on the Contest line. This one is however a more modern design (5 years later) and you can see the difference in the hull form. The 35s is remarkably more modern. I also found it more beautiful.

Regards

Paulo


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