# tacking angle



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

does wind velosity, light air to medium air change the tacking angle when on a beat ?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

here's a tricky question...yes and no..

Wind/air velocity change the amount of lift/pull/push on the sail. The faster the air passes thru the sail, the lower the depression created (according to Bernoulli's principle), the higher the pull, the higher you can point, (due to the reduction in the vectors), however, as the wind goes up you have to change sail shape, changing camber (bag), in order to prevent it from stalling / flaping, so you go back to where you were.

So yes, theoretically you should be able to reduce pointing angle, due to increase in relative airflow velocity, but in reallity you can't because of sail shape and boat speed.

Think of point angle as angle of attack on a wing of a plane, which is the angle created by relative airflow and incidence angle.

If you do its almost negligenciable. 

NO is the answer in real life. If you want to reduce point angle you have to reduced the angle of attack, which can only be done by trimming sail, during construction of the boat, which dictated where and how sail travelers are located, and how much camber (bag) does your sail have.

Then, there is heel, as the wind picks up, the boat heels more, and by doing so, it increases wet surface on leeward, increasing drag, the sail inclines, looses efficiency due to decreased frontal area...bla bla bla....forget it...

NO


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

If a racer like Gui said that it must be true. I specially liked the bla bla part of explanation. Realy good !
in theory there is a small difference. Look at the polar charts for my boat (Beneteau Oceanis 423):
http://www.finot.com/bateaux/batproduction/beneteau/oceanis%20423/polaires/polaire423.htm

You can see that the best VMG is achieced on different angles for different amounts of wind. But a difference is so small that probably Gui's advice was the best possible.
Here is relevant data for my particular boat:
wind in knots 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 20 25 30 35 
Up.Vs2.794.105.115.816.206.396.506.646.796.876.91
Up.Bt47.046.144.843.742.741.440.439.940.741.843.5Up.
Vmg1.902.843.634.204.564.804.955.095.155.125.01

So: One should tack differently in stronger wind - but in real life - look at the tell tales (or how are they called in English) and the sails.
If I singlehand I just hit the tack button on my autopilot (set to 90deg.), then I adjust the sails for beat, then I fine tune the course. If I am in the mood I trimm the sails a bit and of course handsteer to follow the slight wind shifts.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Tomaz...he's asking about pointing angle, not speed.


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

Table is not readable well. The tack angle would be: 2*(90-Up.Bt) 
For example:

In 4 knots of wind you tack 86 degrees while 
in 20 knots you tack 100 degrees.

In theory. For this boat. And with no waves, and new sails and clean hull, ... each boat is different. But on my boat it is always close to 90 (while on a good performance racer it is much less).


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

In light air, as your boat accelerates out of a tack, you pull the apparent wind forward, and may have to bear off a little to keep the wind angle wide enough. Or, you could delay trimming those last few clicks on the winch until you start accelerating.

Same thing in heavier air, but less change in apparent wind angle since your speed is less in relation to the velocity of the true wind.


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

in reply to: Tomaz...he's asking about pointing angle, not speed.

I know. But the whole idea of tacking is to get max VMG. You want to have pointing angle that gives you max VMG. 
On my boat I can point 30deg. and make no speed or can point 80 deg. and make no upwind gain. 
Somewhere in between the two is the best pointing angle to get you upwind fastest.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Ahhhh I am suffering of "boom trauma"...not going to discuss

I still believe the real answer is no...sorry


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Ahhhh I am suffering of "boom trauma"...not going to discuss
> 
> I still believe the real answer is no...sorry


Now I fell almost sorry - The last thing I wanted to do is to open the "boom wound". 
My post really supports your post -only you said it so much better (I really liked the bla bla). 
My boat is more of a cruiser and does not point that good, so there might be some more difference. It is really small. and not noticable for practical purposes. 
The theory tells me to tack 86deg. in 4 knots of wind - but in 4 knots I would run the engine if I needed to go upwind. 
Then the theory tells me to tack 100 deg. in 20 knots of wind - but at 20 knots we have waves and I start thinking bout the first reef and search a compromise between safety, VMG and comfort (if my wife is with me comfort comes before VMG). In 2o knots I just enjoy and forget about silly theory the designers have put on the web..
In most cases my tack is very close to 90 deg.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Tomaz - I think Giu is of the racing breed, then VMG should be PBO (Performance Better than Opponents)


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## rexy (Jan 25, 2007)

some theoretical stuff about sail theory's and how they work i came across

http://www.arvelgentry.com/techs/Origins_of_Lift.pdf
http://www.amasci.com/wing/airfoil.html
http://www.arvelgentry.com/techs/The Aerodynamics of Sail Interaction.pdf


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Arvel Gentry is the guy. Like Giulietta says, theoretically it's possible, but other factors like heeling, waves, boatspeed (target numbers) interfere. On our Soling, we routinely tacked through 60-65º on a beat, but like Giulietta also mentioned, you can adjust jib and main travelers on a Soling. Other boats may not have that capability, and (because of reduced boatspeed) it may not be desirable to change the angle of attack much. On the other hand, we've found in light air it often makes a lot of sense to foot off and keep moving, rather than head as high as the sails might allow , but go slower. It's a sailboat - a series of changing compromises all the time.


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## oldironnut (Feb 28, 2010)

This is another question rather than a reply. My boat is a 22' Oday shoal draft (23"). My problem is leeway when pointing as high as possible. It seems that I have to bear off a little more than my competitors to maintain speed therefore a better VMG. To check between my compass and my gps I'll motor downwind where leeway won't be a factor. My compass on the bulkhead and heading on the gps is very close. When I'm sailing upwind sometime I get as much as 8 degrees difference. I'm not sure if it's a matter of just design or my sailing skill and sail trim. Ready to learn.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

mr31 said:


> does wind velosity, light air to medium air change the tacking angle when on a beat ?


I know this is an old thread, but I just ran across it, and I think the conclusion reached by Giu and others is not entirely correct. He is correct when you only consider the limiting factors of the boat's basic geometry, i.e., the sail shape, location of genoa track, length of spreaders, etc. But, generally, boat speed increases with wind velocity. An increase in boat speed increases the efficiency of the keel, and that reduces drift to leeward. Thus, in a lower wind velocity, a boat can't point to the full extent which can theoretically be achieved within the limits of it's basic geometry. As the velocity of the wind increases, and the boat speed increases, the efficiency of the keel increases, and, at some point, the boat is able to point to the full extent which can theoretically be achieved within the limits of it's basic geometry. The boat's optimum tacking angle is determined by it's optimum pointing angle. I think Giu's error was in not factoring in the reduction in the keel's efficiency as boat speed declines.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

With reduced wind flow velocity - the higher you can 'point' ... several factors combine to make this happen.

1. the _relative_ speed of the boat vs. the _relative_ speed of the oncoming air ... creates a slightly larger '_relative_' amplitude 'upwash' of air flow in front of the boat - for higher angle of attack _relative_ to the 'true' wind.

2. the 'slot distance' between the jib and main is (should be) more closed or reduced in light winds vs. higher strength winds ... giving a boat in light winds a higher 'angle of attack' relative to the 'true' wind because the clew can (should) be closer to the boats centerline than when in 'heavier' wind as well as better 'aerodynamic dumping velocity' (bootstrapping) between the jib and main. You precisely adjust the 'slot distance' in accordance to the output of the speedo (and forget or ignore any so-called 'backwinding' you see in the luff of the main) .... max speed is the goal when adjusting how far open or closed that 'slot' is. Of course your sails are perfectly trimmed and shaped (all tell tales flying 'perfect') and with VERY slight 'weather helm', before you adjust the slot-open distance to get MAX. SPEED/VMG out of the boat when beating!!!

For the case of the shoaldrafter and pointing ability, you have several things against you:
1. a shoaldrafted boat will more easily skid to leeward (helmsman erroneously blaming 'weather helm' because of the side-impact of water against the rudder due to the normal skid) .... so, the position of maximum draft of both sails has to be 'more forward' AND the wake coming off the stern is at an angle of no more than 2-3°. The usual 'set up' is to get MAX. speed out of a shoaldrafted boat when attempting to 'beat' (to maximize VMG) by having a near 'dead fish' / neutral helm with *VERY* slight helm pressure and by checking the stern wake (turbulence caused by the keel and rudder ... is coming STRAIGHT off the stern, not any appreciable angle .... get that boat MOVING instead of skidding to the lee (for better VMG!!). With a near dead-fish helm you will consciously have to work the wheel/tiller for the boat to go 'upwind' and not constantly 'bear off'. 
Also you will have to learn how to 'turbo sail' : Footing Off - SailboatOwners.com .... post#12 and this also applies to deep fin keelers who want to 'fly' their keels.

2. You're simply not going to get that shoal draft keel to develop very much LIFT to weather, in comparision to a deep fin.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

oldironnut said:


> This is another question rather than a reply. My boat is a 22' Oday shoal draft (23"). My problem is leeway when pointing as high as possible. It seems that I have to bear off a little more than my competitors to maintain speed therefore a better VMG. To check between my compass and my gps I'll motor downwind where leeway won't be a factor. My compass on the bulkhead and heading on the gps is very close. When I'm sailing upwind sometime I get as much as 8 degrees difference. I'm not sure if it's a matter of just design or my sailing skill and sail trim. Ready to learn.


Oldironnut, I have raced against Odays in that size range, and they point about as well as most other cruiser/racers in that size range. A boat with shoal draft will usually lose a very little pointing ability. But, what really reduces your boat's pointing ability is poor sail trim, poor helmsmanship, and anything that reduces your boat's speed. If the underwater surfaces are fouled by dirt, or slime, or many layers of old, peeling paint, that roughness creates drag, and disrupts the smooth, laminar flow of water over the hull and keel, and it creates turbulence. Serious racers at least scrub the bottom before a race, and are meticulous about preparing the bottom each spring.

No matter how much skill the skipper has, a sailboat can't be competitive if it has a foul bottom and can't generate speeds that are comparable to it's competitors, so your first priority should probably be to make the bottom smooth and fast. Then, work on sail trim, boat handling and helmsmanship, and practice, practice, practice. Also, volunteer to crew for other, experienced racers, and watch how they trim their sails and handle the boat, and you'll learn fast.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Agree the slower you are going the more leeway, which can offset the theoretically better higher vmg from pointing higher if in fact there were any advantage at a particular point of sale. The gps is showing actual course made so 8 degrees difference is significant.
I think the original thread confused angle to the apparent wind, with tacking angle. One might sail at 30 deg AWA and that is related to the angle of the wind on the sails. There can be a difference in curvature on the luff for different wind speeds so that angle may vary somewhat with windspeed. That is the luff might be tighter in higher wind so you could point higher as the curvature is less. But that depends on sea state you might not tighten it if waves are slowing you and you want more powerinstaed of pointing a bit higher. But then you might have excess power so can point higher. It depends.

But if you are pointing at say 30 AWA your angle to the TWA will vary depending on windstrength as the wind increases the wind effect due to boat speed increases less relative to the true wind. But in a lighter wind the apparent wind may move more ahead so that if you maintain a fixed angle to the AW you are actually sailing at an increased TWA.
Since the windward mark is in the direction from which the true wind is coming in lighter winds you are in fact sailing at a larger angle to the true wind even if sailing by say the windex you are sailing by the AW. You will therefore tack through a greater angle than if the wind were higher.
If the AWA is 30 you are not tacking through 2 x30 but maybe 80 relative to the true wind or even 110 in lighter winds.
In lighter winds therefore although you may keep the same apparent wind angle in fact since the awa moves ahead you are sailng at a greater angle to the true wind as you pick up speed.
I don't know how clear that is as it can be difficult to get one's head around it.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Let me put this another way. The faster you go the more you will 'bear off' when beating to hold a perfect/precise set/trim in accordance to maximized aerodynamics as indicated by perfect flowing tell tales. This effect is very apparent on planing hull sailboats and iceboats when they are 'accelerating' to faster speeds. 
Simple trigonometry when applied to dynamic acceleration or increasing speed of the *boat*. The same is true for in increasing wind strength/velocity
;-)


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Agree with the first part - disagree with the second, that you bear off more with increasing wind speed. You only bear off in relation to the true wind not the apparent wind. The apparent wind changes more at low ws and relatively little at higher speeds.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

RichH said:


> 2. the 'slot distance' between the jib and main is (should be) more closed or reduced in light winds vs. higher strength winds ...


 In light air (0-5kts) it's important to keep the slot open and flow moving over the sails. Strapped sails in light air are very very very slow.. higher winds (5-12/14), the slot closes and angles tighten. Main sheet on hard, traveller up or down for a good helm or changes in wind pressure. 14+ and you begin to change head sails, or sail shape (open the top of the main and jib and flattening the body (outhaul, backstay, moving jib leads back a bit) depending on sea state, etc..., 20'ish + and most non race boats will start reefing the main, yadda yadda yadda....


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

As we said several years ago, each boat responds differently to different conditions, and optimum trim will vary according the the boat, the conditions, the crew, and the skipper. Everybody's right at some point. Whoever wins the race is right more often.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

As stated by others, the answer to the original question really depends on the boat, the sea state, etc. Typically in light air you wouldn't be TRYING to point as high as possible, at least not until you have built up some boatspeed.

The boat's keel design is a large determining factor. My current boat has a pretty conventional deep fin keel with a pretty big chord length, (the fore-aft measurement) which makes it very forgiving. It will start to develop enough lift to start to point at relatively low speeds. In higher wind ranges it points very high. My last boat, on the other hand, was a high performance racer with a very deep narrow chord fin with a bulb. That keel required much higher speeds in order to start generating lift. In lighter winds I could not even think about pointing with other boats in the fleet until I got moving.

As for shoal draft keels, there is just no way a shoal draft boat will be able to point as high as a deep draft keel. Two identical boats, one with shoal one with deep, and the deep draft boat would KILL the shoal up wind every time. The shoal draft just doesn't have the surface area to generate the lift.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

SchockT said:


> The shoal draft just doesn't have the surface area to generate the lift.


To be more accurate, the shoaler draft keel does not have the efficiency to generate equal lift to an equal-area, higher-aspect ratio, equal foil section, keel and the shoal keel will generate more drag if given a large enough area to provide equal lift at an equal speed. Drag of course is one of the big controlling elements in the ability to maximize VMG to windward at any particular wind and wave condition.


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