# The Infamous Leeward Shrouds



## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

Hello Gurus,

I was out sailing the other day and I noticed my leeward shrouds were pretty much flopping around all over the place. We had 15 knots of wind going at the time and she was healing pretty good. I tried to tension them at the dock using my loos gauge. I brought them up to 13% of breaking strength but when I went out again they were still flopping around. I know this subject has come up again and again but here is my delima:

I have a 33 year old C&C 30 MK1 which I adore. Should I really bother with tightening them up more while tacking? Considering I'm at 13% right now, I imagine I would have to bring the tension to near 20% to make the flopping stop. She is been a great boat to me and I just feel like that's way too much stress on the hull, rigging, and everything else. I'm not a racer and I don't mind not having a finely tuned rig. Can I just use a bungee cord to reduce the shock loading the way I have seen done by some cat folks? Do you consider this a major safety concern requiring immediate attention?

Any advise is greatly appreciated.
Aaron

*** Update *** 08/06/2012

(Video was taken on a 15+ knots wind with gusts up to 25+)


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Rig tune has nothing to do with the leeward shrouds, unless you have diamond stays or jumpers.

Let them flop, just secure the cotter pins.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

Did you ever see a dog take off running at full speed until he got to the end of his leash, and it jerked him off his feet to a sudden stop? Overly loose shrouds are like that leash, that is just long enough to let the dog get to full speed before it jerks him up short. I have sailed on boats that had shrouds so loose that the whole rig banged loudly in a chop, as the rig slammed back and forth. That's hard on the cables and hard on the connections. 

I don't use a Loos gauge to tension my stays. For general daysailing and cruising, I want the mast erect and in column, and raked aft just enough to produce a light but adequate weather helm. When the mast is oriented approximately correctly in those respects, I snug each of the stays and shrouds, alternatively, and by an equal number of turns, just enough to take the slack out of them. Then I sail the boat in 10-15 kt winds, and watch the shrouds and stays. If the leeward cables go slack enough to "sway in the breeze," I tighten them alternatively and by an equal number of turns, until the leeward cables just relax in 10-15 kt winds, but don't sway loosely. In short, I want them just taut enough to hold the mast erect and in column and to restrain the mast from moving about excessively, and no more. 

Tuning a sailboat rig isn't like tuning a guitar, where you want each string to vibrate at a specific frequency, to produce a specific sound, and that's why I see no need to use a Loos gauge. Your objective is simply to hold the rig erect and in column, which maximizes it's strength, to prevent it from moving excessively in a seaway, and to provide a proper support for your sails. If you adjust the cables with just enough tension (and no more) to accomplish those objectives, then the cables won't be so taut as to overly stress the rigging and chainplates. A Loos gauge is just one way of approximating the correct amount of tension.

Of course you can fine tune the rig for racing, or for sailing in light air, etc, but this question is only about basic tensioning, and not sail shaping.


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## DivingOtter (May 5, 2012)

I had the same problem. Shock loading for rigging is a bad game to play.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Does it do this equally on each tack?

Have someone drive, while you go on deck and sight up the mast. Is it straight and true, or is the tip falling off to leeward? If it is, you are at risk of a dismasting.

At the dock, take the jib halyard and take the shackle to a stanchion base on the port side. Now take it to the starboard side stanchion base. Does the halyard reach to the exact same point? If not, your rig is not symmetrical, and so it's not equally loaded.

From the photos I can see, you have a single lower shroud on each side, and a single upper shroud. This shouldn't be too difficult to tune.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

flyingjib said:


> Hello Gurus,
> 
> I was out sailing the other day and I noticed my leeward shrouds were pretty much flopping around all over the place. We had 15 knots of wind going at the time and she was healing pretty good. I tried to tension them at the dock using my loos gauge. I brought them up to 13% of breaking strength but when I went out again they were still flopping around. I know this subject has come up again and again but here is my delima:
> 
> ...


I used to own a 30MKI. The leeward shrouds are pretty loose when healed and beating in heavier air. Just be sure they are tuned properly on both tacks, check your tabs and chain plates as it's an older boat and you should be fine. It's never a bad idea to hire a rigger for an hour or so to inspect your rigging every few years.

The main on your boat is fairly small compared to more modern rigs. You have a very stout mast being held up by oversized wire on a well built boat. You are probably sailing with a large headsail so having some bend in the mast might help a bit.


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Does it do this equally on each tack?
> 
> Have someone drive, while you go on deck and sight up the mast. Is it straight and true, or is the tip falling off to leeward? If it is, you are at risk of a dismasting.
> 
> ...


It does it pretty much equally on each tack.

Also, I have used a long tape measure which I pulled up with my Halyard and measured the distance to each chain plate. They are equal.

The mast does look straight and I haven't seen any noticeable bend.

I only have a single upper and lower shrouds. They're both 1/4" 1/19 wire.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Doesn't sound like there's a real problem here then. You were sailing in a decent breeze with a large headsail, so you got some slack in the lowers.

I notice you're in the Annapolis area. We'll have to link up sometime for a drink. There's a C&C 30 named "Yes" that sails in my river, and those guys really clean up in the Wednesday night races. Nice boat.


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Doesn't sound like there's a real problem here then. You were sailing in a decent breeze with a large headsail, so you got some slack in the lowers.
> 
> I notice you're in the Annapolis area. We'll have to link up sometime for a drink. There's a C&C 30 named "Yes" that sails in my river, and those guys really clean up in the Wednesday night races. Nice boat.


It would be great to meet up for a drink. I keep my boat in Back Creek around Jabin's...


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

Well... I was looking more carefully at the mast collar today and I noticed mast wedges are only placed in fore and aft of the mast. There are no wedges supporting the sides. Could lack of proper mast wedges cause some of the problem I'm having?


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

flyingjib said:


> Well... I was looking more carefully at the mast collar today and I noticed mast wedges are only placed in fore and aft of the mast. There are no wedges supporting the sides. Could lack of proper mast wedges cause some of the problem I'm having?


Poorly supported mast partners are a major no no. It can allow the lower section of the mast to cant to leeward. This can do a lot of funky stuff. In some case if the uppers and mast base are solid it can cause the middle of the mast to bow to leeward, and the uppers on the windward side to actually ease.

It could also cause the entire mast to cant to leeward. Which would cause the leeward uppers to slacken. Think of the partners as the lowest set of spreaders. The only thing that can have as much of an effect of rig tunes is actually the mast step.

I am a big fan of poured in mast spacers like spartite, but shims will work too.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Stumble said:


> Poorly supported mast partners are a major no no. It can allow the lower section of the mast to cant to leeward. This can do a lot of funky stuff. In some case if the uppers and mast base are solid it can cause the middle of the mast to bow to leeward, and the uppers on the windward side to actually ease.
> 
> It could also cause the entire mast to cant to leeward. Which would cause the leeward uppers to slacken. Think of the partners as the lowest set of spreaders. The only thing that can have as much of an effect of rig tunes is actually the mast step.
> 
> I am a big fan of poured in mast spacers like spartite, but shims will work too.


Yup!

I would put in shims right away, unless you have the time before the next sail to start on something more permanent like "spartite". Either will do the trick.

Just to be clear, When I said "mast bend" in a previous post, I meant that your mast should have a little bend towards the stern. If I'm not making myself clear, look at some of the performance oriented boats in your marina from abeam, you will notice that their masts bent back.

Also, your mast step might have a shims for and aft (but the mast should fit tight to port and starboard).


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

ya, wedge it even and all around. Years ago I went for a short sail in Biscayne bay with a turnbuckle un pinned and it wiggled right off while flopping around on the lee side, but the flopping is normal. A lot of guy's are codder pin only, but I like rings. As the rigger that I trained under said " If rings are good enough for a helicopter they are good enough for a sail boat" . they allow for easy tunning and you don't have to tape them.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

RobGallagher said:


> Yup!
> 
> I would put in shims right away, unless you have the time before the next sail to start on something more permanent like "spartite". Either will do the trick.
> 
> ...


Rob is referring to "pre-bend". This is what should be in your mast normally, before applying a backstay adjuster to induce more bend while sailing upwind. This is typically (but not exclusively) a racer thing.

The reason for pre-bend (as I understand it) is because most sails have a little bit of curve built into the luff. This shape gives good upwind sailing performance.

However, boats like ours (C&C 30, P30) have "telephone pole" masts that are pretty rigid and usually only a very small amount of pre-bend is normal in a correctly tuned rig.

My mast is deck-stepped, so I didn't consider the possibility of missing or damaged partners. I take it that the C&C 30 mast is keel stepped?

Get some oak or other hardwood shims in there, go for a sail and see what happens. If the result is positive, maybe we can do the Spartite thing. I've never messed with it, and it could be a joint educational thing.


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## utchuckd (Apr 4, 2010)

Capt.aaron said:


> A lot of guy's are codder pin only, but I like rings. As the rigger that I trained under said " If rings are good enough for a helicopter they are good enough for a sail boat" . they allow for easy tunning and you don't have to tape them.


Stupid question, what do you mean by rings? I think I know what you're talking about but don't want to assume.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

utchuckd said:


> Stupid question, what do you mean by rings? I think I know what you're talking about but don't want to assume.


Split rings, like on your key chain. My boat has them. They're usually a little thinner and easier to work with than your key chain.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Having so much slack in the lee shrouds when heeled means that either the rig is stretching somewhere (and maybe even undersized) or there is simply not enough initial tension. Regular standing rigging wire, (this is from memory and could be off a little bit) at rest should stretch about 1/8" over 5' which can be measured by marking a spot about 5' up from the turnbuckle. The lee shrouds should wind up being JUST slack when on a reach, not flopping around. It's actually a way to roughly tune the shrouds by tightening them up little by little, evenly on both tacks.


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

Tensioning the backstay will tighten the forestay on a C&C30 mk 1 to shape the jib, but it won't bend the mast. It is truly a telephone pole (4X8 crossection). You'll exceed the SWL of the stays before you bend that mast.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Concerning the turnbuckles, can anyone recommend a lubricant?
Regards


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Casey,

Any good dry lubricant will work. I like sailkote, but there are plenty of options. Just stay away from anything with graphite or metal in it.


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

Stumble said:


> Poorly supported mast partners are a major no no. It can allow the lower section of the mast to cant to leeward. This can do a lot of funky stuff. In some case if the uppers and mast base are solid it can cause the middle of the mast to bow to leeward, and the uppers on the windward side to actually ease.
> 
> It could also cause the entire mast to cant to leeward. Which would cause the leeward uppers to slacken. Think of the partners as the lowest set of spreaders. The only thing that can have as much of an effect of rig tunes is actually the mast step.
> 
> I am a big fan of poured in mast spacers like spartite, but shims will work too.


Thank you. I hope it's not the mast step. Even though C&C 30s are known for it...


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Rob is referring to "pre-bend". This is what should be in your mast normally, before applying a backstay adjuster to induce more bend while sailing upwind. This is typically (but not exclusively) a racer thing.
> 
> The reason for pre-bend (as I understand it) is because most sails have a little bit of curve built into the luff. This shape gives good upwind sailing performance.
> 
> ...


Absolutely! My plan is to give it a shot this weekend. If it was in-fact the mast shims, then Spartite is the way to go! Thanks!


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

flyingjib said:


> Absolutely! My plan is to give it a shot this weekend. If it was in-fact the mast shims, then Spartite is the way to go! Thanks!


Just remember before pouring spartite be absolutely positive that the mast is exacally where you want it. Once it sets it's a real pain to fix any problems.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Stumble said:


> Casey,
> 
> Any good dry lubricant will work. I like sailkote, but there are plenty of options. Just stay away from anything with graphite or metal in it.


What would graphite do?


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

casey1999 said:


> What would graphite do?


Graphing is galvanically active, and at the very top of the chart. So it acts to corrode any stainless or bronze it is in contact with. Normally the realative size difference would eliminate any worry, but here because the graphite is inside the threads, you can get very localized corrosion eating at the threads.


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

**** Update ***
*
I place the mast shims back and it seems like it's doing better. We haven't had a windy day in Chesapeake lately so I couldn't try it in similar conditions but so far so good.

The funny part is while I was concentrating on measuring the shroud tensions during my tacking, I crossed the channel beacons and grounded my boat for the first time ever! I was only about 10 feet inside but it was too shallow for my 5' draft! Pretty embarrassing but it was much less dramatic than I thought it would have been thanks to Chesapeake shoals. I didn't have much speed since the wind had died down but never the less it took me a while to get myself out for the same reason. It was a good exercise for my 2QM15! Did its job and got me out. Anyways... Pretty exciting day!

Thanks for all of your help and suggestions!


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

flyingjib said:


> Thank you. I hope it's not the mast step. Even though C&C 30s are known for it...


Hmmm. forgot about that. I rebuilt mine, not as hard as I imagined, but took a few days between cutting the old one out and fabricating the new bits. Putting the new bits in is easy. Good news is that if you do it right, you will only do it once.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

RobGallagher said:


> Hmmm. forgot about that. I rebuilt mine, not as hard as I imagined, but took a few days between cutting the old one out and fabricating the new bits. Putting the new bits in is easy. Good news is that if you do it right, you will only do it once.


Rob, I've been watching a crack in my C&C 35 mast step, and might have to rebuild it. Can you give a brief description of how you did it, please? If this is a common problem, does C&C manufacture any replacement parts that will help with the repair?


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## Leocat66 (Dec 11, 2010)

Recently, while increasing the tension on one of my aft stays, the turnbuckle, a large stainless one, galled. It would not move in either direction and I never was able to free it even after it was off the boat. A sailor friend/engineer, who works at a facility which deals with this, learned a simple solution to this problem. They have a large supply of Milk Of Magnesia in their storage room, like cases of the stuff. They require the workers to apply it to the stainless before attempting any adjustments. They experience no galling on their fittings.


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

**** Update ****

I took this video on Sunday. We had a windy day. 15+ knots and gusts up to 25. My main only has one reefing point very close to the foot so I was sailing with the jib rolled in 30%. The video shows how loose the leeward shrouds get. The spreader is banging but we had 3 to 4 foot waves. Just wanted to show you guys what I meant by "flopping":






Thanks again,
Aaron


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## primerate84 (Jun 14, 2006)

I'm no expert, but I was told that your shrouds should never be loose like your video shows. I would tighten them down to prevent the flapping.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

primerate84 said:


> I'm no expert, but I was told that your shrouds should never be loose like your video shows. I would tighten them down to prevent the flapping.


You know, I think you should contact "Yes" who races out of Pirate's Cove on the West River. He's a very successful racer, same boat as you. I'm betting he can offer better advice than I can, and might be willing to come to the boat and take a look.

Come down here on a Wednesday night and see if you can snag him.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

That looks much too loose. If the shroud falls from the spreader, you could wind up losing the whole shebang. Have you tried tightening the shrouds when they are loose? What I usually do is take all the cotter pins out, go on one tack and evenly (same # of turns) tighten the turnbuckles a few turns, then tack and do the same on the other side. Repeat until there is just a little looseness in the leeward side. By turning the turnbuckles the same # of turns, you'll keep the mast somewhat straight as it was before tensioning. Then with sails off at the dock, check the mast by looking up along the sail track and make what adjustments are needed to get it perfectly straight. Also, stand back far and eyeball the mast in relation to a horizontal plane going across the deck port/starboard. It should be sitting at a right angle to the deck. You can also eyeball the fore/aft angle to the deck but this is not necessarily a right angle. Some rigs are purposely raked. Any rake shouldn't be obviously too much. What size wire?


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

It doesn't look like a leeward shroud problem, but a windward one. In that wind with just a jib up the rig should be perfectly strait. It looks like the top is bendinging to leeward. 

The fix isn't to tighten the leeward shrouds, but the windward ones to get the mast in colum, this should fix the leeward side. Then tack and tighten the old leeward side until the mast is in colum on that side.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Your rig is way too loose. There is no great mystery about it, just tighten it up! Use a meauring tape from the masthead to each chain plate to ensure the mast is straight, and then tighten both sides the same number of turns. It is ok for the leeward uppers to get a bit looser, but they should NEVER be floppy like that! Deal with it before your mast comes down!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Stumble said:


> It doesn't look like a leeward shroud problem, but a windward one. In that wind with just a jib up the rig should be perfectly strait. *It looks like the top is bendinging to leeward.*
> 
> The fix isn't to tighten the leeward shrouds, but the windward ones to get the mast in colum, this should fix the leeward side. Then tack and tighten the old leeward side until the mast is in colum on that side.


If so, then this is BAD. That's the upper shrouds that allow that to happen, and it's a dismasting waiting to happen.

The OP has repeatedly stated that he has tightened his lowers with a Loos gauge to the recommended tension. If that's so, then checking the tension of the uppers is in order.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

After viewing the video you posted yesterday:

I would urge you to NOT sail this boat until you can get someone to look at the rig. Doesn't have to be an expensive pro, and it's not a matter of getting it perfect, just getting it to the point where safety is not an issue.

Your shrouds are too loose to sail safely.

Edit; I just went back to your original post. Your boat is very well built, getting the rig to it's proper tension should not, in any way, be effected simply by the age of the boat.

If there is a problem with the mast step, or other issues making it difficult or unsafe to properly tune the rig, then these problems should be addressed. If there are some issues, I can assure you that they will be easier and less expensive to fix than catastrophic rig failure.

Mast step info: ( http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/reviews/review30mk1.htm "The mast step, the seat or pocket into which the mast sits, was originally made of wood up to hull no.# 651. As it sits in a damp /wet area atop the keel, it has had the tendency of weakening and, therefore, deflecting downward. Models #652 and up came with mast steps made of an aluminum casting which was resistant to this problem.")


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

BubbleheadMd said:


> You know, I think you should contact "Yes" who races out of Pirate's Cove on the West River. He's a very successful racer, same boat as you. I'm betting he can offer better advice than I can, and might be willing to come to the boat and take a look.
> 
> Come down here on a Wednesday night and see if you can snag him.


I'll definitely look him up. In fact I stayed overnight at Pirates Cove two weeks ago. I wish I had known then... Thanks again.


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

smurphny said:


> That looks much too loose. If the shroud falls from the spreader, you could wind up losing the whole shebang. Have you tried tightening the shrouds when they are loose? What I usually do is take all the cotter pins out, go on one tack and evenly (same # of turns) tighten the turnbuckles a few turns, then tack and do the same on the other side. Repeat until there is just a little looseness in the leeward side. By turning the turnbuckles the same # of turns, you'll keep the mast somewhat straight as it was before tensioning. Then with sails off at the dock, check the mast by looking up along the sail track and make what adjustments are needed to get it perfectly straight. Also, stand back far and eyeball the mast in relation to a horizontal plane going across the deck port/starboard. It should be sitting at a right angle to the deck. You can also eyeball the fore/aft angle to the deck but this is not necessarily a right angle. Some rigs are purposely raked. Any rake shouldn't be obviously too much. What size wire?


Thanks. The wires are 1/4" (both upper and lower).


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

BubbleheadMd said:


> If so, then this is BAD. That's the upper shrouds that allow that to happen, and it's a dismasting waiting to happen.
> 
> The OP has repeatedly stated that he has tightened his lowers with a Loos gauge to the recommended tension. If that's so, then checking the tension of the uppers is in order.


Exactly. That's my issue. I think I bog myself down with the loos gauge. I'm going to attempt to tighten them this afternoon without the gauge and keep the mast centered. Wish me luck. Thanks again.


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

RobGallagher said:


> After viewing the video you posted yesterday:
> 
> I would urge you to NOT sail this boat until you can get someone to look at the rig. Doesn't have to be an expensive pro, and it's not a matter of getting it perfect, just getting it to the point where safety is not an issue.
> 
> ...


Thanks Rob. I'm not really trying to ignore this problem that's why I went back and took a video to show you guys. I do respect your opinion. I'm new to this and it's puzzling since the shrouds are tight at the dock. I think I have been relying too much on the loos gauge and I should just follow what everybody have been suggesting.

My hull is one of those with a wooden mast step. If I can't tension the shrouds properly then it has to be the mast step and I'm going to work on it next.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

flyingjib said:


> Thanks Rob. I'm not really trying to ignore this problem that's why I went back and took a video to show you guys. I do respect your opinion. I'm new to this and it's puzzling since the shrouds are tight at the dock. I think I have been relying too much on the loos gauge and I should just follow what everybody have been suggesting.
> 
> My hull is one of those with a wooden mast step. If I can't tension the shrouds properly then it has to be the mast step and I'm going to work on it next.


One more thing, be sure to tune your backstay as well. It's hard to tell from the video, but, it's possible that fore/aft tension of the rig can effect how the shrouds behave on certain points of sail. I'm not saying it's simply the backstay, but, if all are out of tune then the backstay could be exasperating the problem.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I think Rob has you on the right track.

I wouldn't crank down on the shrouds too much before 1. checking the backstay and 2. checking the mast step. You really don't want to punch the mast down through the bottom of the boat. *grin* Look first.


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

RobGallagher said:


> One more thing, be sure to tune your backstay as well. It's hard to tell from the video, but, it's possible that fore/aft tension of the rig can effect how the shrouds behave on certain points of sail. I'm not saying it's simply the backstay, but, if all are out of tune then the backstay could be exasperating the problem.


Will do. Thanks again.


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

RobGallagher said:


> One more thing, be sure to tune your backstay as well. It's hard to tell from the video, but, it's possible that fore/aft tension of the rig can effect how the shrouds behave on certain points of sail. I'm not saying it's simply the backstay, but, if all are out of tune then the backstay could be exasperating the problem.


Rob,
This turned out to be the mast step. I marked the position of mast step block and tightened the stays. After a day of sailing the mast step had sunk about 1/8". Seems like my mast step stringers need to be replaced. I'm planning to do it myself since I have a woodworking shop. The question is should I cut the new stringers from solid hardwood (i.e. teak/oak) and glass them in place or should I use marine plywood? I would assume solid hardwood should do the job. What do you think?

Thanks again,
Aaron


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Wow. Glad you found the problem, and glad that you have the wood working skills to fix it. I am "wood-impaired".


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Wow. Glad you found the problem, and glad that you have the wood working skills to fix it. I am "wood-impaired".


 Thanks! I'm glad that I know what's going on but now I have to look for a affordable marina to pull the mast. As you know, Annapolis area marinas are not known for affordability! I checked with Port Annapolis and they wanted more than $1000. Too steep for me... Do you have any recommendations for a decent and affordable marina in the area?

P.S. > If you ever need help with any boat woodworking stuff let me know. I work for beer!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Check with Casa Rio Marina in the Rhode River. They are very affordable.


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Check with Casa Rio Marina in the Rhode River. They are very affordable.


I called them. They didn't have any room to do it in water so they wanted to haul the boat out so it ended up costing around what Port Annapolis would charge.

I got a decent quote from Hartge Yard (the one north of Pirate Cove restaurant at 4701 Woodfield Rd.). They wanted around $400 which seems reasonable. Are you familiar with them?


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