# Island Packet Closing Doors?



## CptBob

Seems they have issues? Perhaps restructure or gone forever? Called their numbers and they are indeed disconnected.

Source
Wikipedia Island Packet Yachts

"After several attempts to reach them this week, it appears that IPY has closed. All of the phone lines are dead and the company email addresses, as well as the direct employee addresses that were attempted, all kicked back as no longer in existence. Company employees had shared that they were in tough shape during 2015, never recovered from the financial crisis, and hadn't been selling many boats in recent years. An eviction notice dated Feb 24, 2016 was posted on the locked factory door."


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## smackdaddy

Oh boy.


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## CptBob

It isn't like I brought up anchors or Hunters :laugh


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## newt

When I was shopping for a used cruiser, I saw a lot of IP 38's that I liked. I called up the factory (8 years ago) and asked if they would be willing to help with the rebuild of one. They told me they were too busy selling new ones to be worried about old ones.
I went on to other boats....


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## Stu Jackson

newt said:


> When I was shopping for a used cruiser, I saw a lot of IP 38's that I liked. I called up the factory (8 years ago) and asked if they would be willing to help with the rebuild of one. They told me they were too busy selling new ones to be worried about old ones.
> I went on to other boats....


Interesting observation and a horrible business model compared to the builder of my boat.

Thanks for the personal anecdote.


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## CptBob

Perhaps that brings up an interesting question. What does it take, under the current market we live in with regards to sailing, to be a successful boat builder?

Is Island Packet a dying style for the current market?


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## Minnewaska

That's too bad, if it's true. I toured the Blue Jacket 40 at the New England boat show a couple of weeks back, which I think is made by IP. I thought it a very worthy boat.


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## xort

Small, speciality sailboat builders cannot compete with large, govt subsidized mass marketers.

My prediction; next up, Hinkley will stop building sail and concentrate on picnic boats (like Sabre) and try to make Morris carry on with semi-custom sailboats.


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## smackdaddy

CptBob said:


> Perhaps that brings up an interesting question. What does it take, under the current market we live in with regards to sailing, to be a successful boat builder?
> 
> Is Island Packet a dying style for the current market?


Simple. More boat for "less" money. That's what's selling.


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## krisscross

I wonder if this bad news will have an effect on the price of their older boats. They seem like nice coastal cruisers.


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## outbound

? Does Bene get a subsidy from the French government ?


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## xort

My understanding is bene gets big help in the loan department. After the crash, lenders wouldnt finance boats. The french govt supported boat loans and if you didnt have caah, they were the only game. Bene/Jene grabbed a big chunk of the market that way.


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## Colin A

I'm sure there are many reasons but the market for new US built sailboats hasn't been good in over a decade. 
http://www.cruisingworld.com/sites/...s/the_sailing_market_2014_with_2013_data1.pdf
This is a couple years old but I think more recent #'s show the same thing. The strong US dollar won't help much either.

Hinckley has been mostly building power boats since about 2000 likely about 90% of production most of that time. They did introduce a new 50' sailboat last year and I believe have sold 3-4 of them so far.


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## Faster

newt said:


> When I was shopping for a used cruiser, I saw a lot of IP 38's that I liked. I called up the factory (8 years ago) and asked if they would be willing to help with the rebuild of one. They told me they were too busy selling new ones to be worried about old ones.
> I went on to other boats....


.. and yet PSC seems to be doing good business rehabbing some of their old classics.. thought I read/heard that they were doing more of that than new construction.


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## blt2ski

Ask your self this question. How many of us want a full to semi full keel boat? The local dealer with a Blue Jacket 40 is now deducted some $100+, not sure a bite has occurred. Meanwhile, they have sold a dozen or so Jeanneau's a year! Including some that are more expensive than the BJ40, they also still have an IP38 IIRC......

PSC IMHO had the same issue. Too old of designs, clobbered by the older models that were reasonably cheap etc to buy. Catalina avoided this issue when they finally started to do some new designs. I am a little worried about Cape George Boatworks that is only building some older Lyle Hess designs. They are rehabbing older ones, so money is coming in the door. Nice folks at CGB but still.......older style boat that is not everyones cup o tea!

marty


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## SVAuspicious

CptBob said:


> Seems they have issues? Perhaps restructure or gone forever? Called their numbers and they are indeed disconnected.


The Wikipedia article you cited does not contain the quote you posted.

While there are always surprises in business I don't think this is true. I have Bill Bolin's cell phone number and will call him today at a more civilized time.

IPY recently won a contract to build Seaward Yachts in addition to their own Island Packets and the Blue Jacket. That makes it even harder to believe they have financial stability problems. Think about the due diligence carried out before the award and the infusion of cash as part of it.

IPY did have a rough patch some years ago. They went to a four day work week for a while to protect jobs. In my opinion Bob Johnson and Bill Bolin and their team have done a very good job of business management over the years in good times and bad.



newt said:


> When I was shopping for a used cruiser, I saw a lot of IP 38's that I liked. I called up the factory (8 years ago) and asked if they would be willing to help with the rebuild of one. They told me they were too busy selling new ones to be worried about old ones.
> I went on to other boats....


There must be more to that story. IPY has a reputation for outstanding customer service. I have personal knowledge of them hunting through files for drawings and parts lists for old boats.


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## Jaramaz

xort said:


> My understanding is bene gets big help in the loan department. After the crash, lenders wouldnt finance boats. The french govt supported boat loans and if you didnt have caah, they were the only game. Bene/Jene grabbed a big chunk of the market that way.


Uhu? Anything to support that statement or is it just something you say?

Bene, as you call them, are French. You know, that country in Europe famous for their wines. Europe were not hit in the same way as US by "the crash", Bene was one of the major boat builders, maybe the largest at that time. They did take some hits, as all did, made severe cuts, as all did. 
But ... "the french govt supported boat loans"? Would that really save an international boat builder with its main market outside France?

All this said, the french are as protective as many others. It use to land on car industry or farming, both national sports. Then it is the industry that gets the support, not the consumers.

/J


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## newt

SVAuspicious said:


> There must be more to that story. IPY has a reputation for outstanding customer service. I have personal knowledge of them hunting through files for drawings and parts lists for old boats.


Dave, I was looking at the IP 38 after having chartered the IP 40 and was told by Johnson those exact words. I had the one I wanted to buy and all my ducks in a row. Maybe because I was not yet an owner, or they were busy that day or something else, that I was blown off that day. I was not impressed. I went with a Valiant that assured me they would either update my boat at the factory or that I could buy parts from them (at $$$ to be sure). The Valiant shop has since closed down.
I have no problems with the quality of the IP, and a few IP-38's have circ'ed the world. I just felt that they would not help me with their older models, and that was a big deal to me at that time. Not so much now that I do my own plumbing, sailmending, mech, fiberglass, welding, etc....
As for older designs- I think people like PSC make excellent boats and would buy one of those boats rather than a newer model that you cannot get parts for because the design changes every few years. OK, so I get there a few hours later. Bill me.:sailing-pilgrims:


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## bobperry

The Seattle dealer has had a Blue Jacket for sale for almost three years.

Sorry to see them go.I have not designed a new production boat since the Flying Tiger and that was about 7 years ago. All my work since has been custom boats.


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## outbound

We looked at building a new PSC44 but went with the Outbound. Steve Brody is a true gentleman and his shop builds a great boat. Even after the Outbound was in build ( and he knew it) PSC helped me out with my PSC 34 as its sale was in progress. 
On another thread noted all the stick built boat builders are in trouble. To paraphrase Smack people want more boat (LWL) for less money. They generally don't appreciate less money buys less boat. Or if they do it doesn't matter given their sailing program. Sailboats are a niche market and owners who want boats to last them decades or the rest of their lives smaller still. New boat market continues to divide into the ultra rich willing to pay huge sums for best practices and ultimate durability and the mass production builders. The middle ( Valiant, Sweden yacht, Najad, IP, HR?, PSC? Rustler?) gets smaller and will continue to have difficulty funding R&D, tooling, molds to stay current and maintain market share.
Outbound has benefited from this market contraction as fewer and fewer new boats are offered at reasonable price for the long term/distance cruising couple. Even then although Outbound offers a great 52' whose deck plan was reworked by the esteemed Robert Perry, NA it is out of the price range of this middle new boat market.


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## Maine Sail

SVAuspicious said:


> The Wikipedia article you cited does not contain the quote you posted.


And herein lies the problem with folks trusting Wikipedia is an accurate, vetted or legitimate source that can be trusted with a high level of accuracy. One individual can edit something, without any sort of _accuracy confirmation_, and it starts a feeding frenzy whether it's true or not...

FWIW I saw that exact quote on the IP Wikipedia last night at about 10:00 PM EST, so it was there....


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## Minnewaska

bobperry said:


> The Seattle dealer has had a Blue Jacket for sale for almost three years......


What do you think is the block? I thought it was a decent boat, although, I didn't think the topsides were faired as well as they should have been for a blue hull in an indoor boat show. Sort of the perfect environment to find imperfections.

I was just browsing, so I never even looked at the asking price. I'm not a huge fan of self-tacking jibs, nor the solent rig (unless really going offshore), but I didn't find many objections. Overpriced?


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## CptBob

SVAuspicious said:


> The Wikipedia article you cited does not contain the quote you posted.


Yes, it was removed later that day, as wikipedia often does.

Here is an attached eviction notice on both factory locations that was over on the IP forum. Also called their phone numbers and all numbers no longer in service.

If true, saddens me a bit as I dig their product, but did think it odd nothing but a used boat showed up to Annapolis last fall.

- Cpt. Bob


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## Minnewaska

Seems like whomever originally posted to Wiki might not have been far off. Is it possible they are just being evicted and their phones are coincidentally shut off too? Unless a gross fabrication of photos and all, this looks bad for IP.


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## CptBob

Catalina is just up the road....perhaps they need to join forces....

-CptBob


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## MarkofSeaLife

On the eviction notice their company name is "Traditional Watercraft" 
The problem with that is when tradional boats were being built they were not traditional - they were as modern as the builders could make them.


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## SVAuspicious

Please note that Traditional Watercraft Inc is the name of the company that does business as Island Packet Yachts. That is not new - it is the name Bob Johnson chose for the company when he released the first Island Packet to the market.

Here is the news I have from extremely reliable sources.

The eviction notice was indeed on the door for 24 hours. It was in place as a result of a change in leaseholder for the buildings from which IPY operates. The company is healthy and in full operation. Not so much as a pencil was moved.

I am told there will be an announcement from the company next week on Tuesday or Wednesday.

My understanding is that some IP owners (a rabidly loyal group) dropped by to visit and posted photos of the notice on the owners' forum. Speculation and rumor spiraled from there. 

Bob Johnson and his team continue to exemplify good management and forethought. I firmly believe any buyer or owner can have full confidence in ongoing support for their Island Packet, Blue Jacket, or Seaward Yacht.


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## CptBob

Well that is good news hopefully. Odd turn of events to have an eviction notice posted for 24 hours just for a change in leaseholder. Also odd for the phones to be turned off and not functioning. I'm sure it will all shake out in a few days.

- Cpt. Bob


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## Minnewaska

SVAuspicious said:


> ....The eviction notice was indeed on the door for 24 hours. It was in place as a result of a change in leaseholder for the buildings from which IPY operates.


Still sounds fishy, but I'm glad to hear you are confident that they remain in business.



> I am told there will be an announcement from the company next week on Tuesday or Wednesday.


If you have a close relationship with these folks, you should encourage them not to wait that long. A full week is a brand killer on the internet and they must be aware of the firestorm.


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## SVAuspicious

Minnewaska said:


> If you have a close relationship with these folks, you should encourage them not to wait that long. A full week is a brand killer on the internet and they must be aware of the firestorm.


The legal system has not kept up with the Internet and sometimes you just have to wait for all the papers to be signed.

There is no problem here.


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## RobGallagher

A reasonable percent of slips and moorings are still occupied by boats from the late '60's - '70's fiberglass boats that are still cared for and sailed regular. Many are still racing weekly. This type of longevity does not seem to occur with cars or R/V's.

I sold my 1972 for a "new" 1988 because I wanted a bigger berth and head. I'm probably be no happier had I bought new as I could have only been let down. If I was just daysailing I might still be sailing the 1972. I'm now in the market for another "new" boat that will probably be made around 1990.

For me, a new boat would be a used boat in a matter of hours. I take friends out fishing, manage to bump a dock and bump the bottom at least once every season, I can't seem to ever change the oil without spilling a drop, invited friends show up wearing black soled boots or whatnot (but they bring a six pack  ), then there is the inevitable red wind slosh that doesn't get noticed until the next morning. I spend a hell of a lot more time sailing than polishing and waxing.

Yacht World, Craigs, etc. are loaded with boats built in the 1970's. Sadly they seem to only have one steering wheel and you can't drive a golf ball out the transom  

So many reasons not to buy new unless you are flush. Sorry to say I'm not flush.


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## CptBob

RobGallagher said:


> Sadly they seem to only have one steering wheel and you can't drive a golf ball out the transom


HAHAHAHA! Best. Quote. Ever.


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## outbound

There remain valid reasons for new boats even when counting the pennies.
You're racing
You're voyaging and don't what to find out about other people's mistakes, mishaps or damage when outside helicopter range.
You're going full time cruising and don't want to spend the first year on rehab and refit issues.
The boat you've set your heart on is not commonly available on the used market or if available not spec'd the way you want or heavily travelled.
You have things you want on the boat not commonly asked for and either much more expensive to do as retrofit or not possible.


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## smackdaddy

SVAuspicious said:


> There is no problem here.


Please. Eviction notices and phone service shutdowns? There's definitely a problem. Just what exactly it is remains to be seen.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Minnewaska said:


> If you have a close relationship with these folks, you should encourage them not to wait that long. A full week is a brand killer on the internet and they must be aware of the firestorm.


Yes, I agree.

Owners are utter fools if they don't release a statement today.

They won't have a customer by Tuesday.

Btw: a press release in the USA this Tuesday or Wednesday is PR suicide. 
(For the non US people this Tuesday has some big election thingy and no one will be sparing a column inch on a boat company)


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## CptBob

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yes, I agree.
> 
> Owners are utter fools if they don't release a statement today.
> 
> They won't have a customer by Tuesday.
> 
> Btw: a press release in the USA this Tuesday or Wednesday is PR suicide.
> (For the non US people this Tuesday has some big election thingy and no one will be sparing a column inch on a boat company)


Exactly this^


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## blt2ski

The local Seattle dealer has a sold sign on the BJ 40. BUT, it is very discounted below 400K vs aboe 500K iirc when it first came out. The ip360 is also well discounted, but not sold per say. 

Marty


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## newt

SVAuspicious said:


> Please note that Traditional Watercraft Inc is the name of the company that does business as Island Packet Yachts. That is not new - it is the name Bob Johnson chose for the company when he released the first Island Packet to the market.
> 
> Here is the news I have from extremely reliable sources.
> 
> The eviction notice was indeed on the door for 24 hours. It was in place as a result of a change in leaseholder for the buildings from which IPY operates. The company is healthy and in full operation. Not so much as a pencil was moved.
> 
> I am told there will be an announcement from the company next week on Tuesday or Wednesday.
> 
> My understanding is that some IP owners (a rabidly loyal group) dropped by to visit and posted photos of the notice on the owners' forum. Speculation and rumor spiraled from there.
> 
> Bob Johnson and his team continue to exemplify good management and forethought. I firmly believe any buyer or owner can have full confidence in ongoing support for their Island Packet, Blue Jacket, or Seaward Yacht.


That is good news, as IP are a quality boat. I would not have any problems sailing it anywhere.


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## Faster

newt said:


> That is good news, as IP are a quality boat. I would not have any problems sailing it anywhere.


... as long as you're not in a hurry


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## outbound

Friend in round the world ARC noted the IP in the group always came in last. But:

They came in.

And

They were happy, smiling and had no significant breakage.



Not my cuppa but says much to be proud of in a cruising boat. Wonder if they made any 520s. Promo literature looks good. Berths look usable without the funky angled placement.
Be sad if IP bites the dust.


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## Faster

Well, perhaps reports of their demise have been greatly exaggerated..

I liked a lot of what we saw on the BJ40, except the price (which the market hasn't exactly supported either).. My poison would probably be a J40 in good shape.

btw, I think buying new (for the good reasons you cited, Out,) in 40+ feet means you're beyond counting pennies.. or dreaming.. or hopelessly in debt on a depreciating 'asset'....


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## Pamlicotraveler

I have heard that everyone involved is under a full non-disclosure contract and are not even allowed to discuss whatever is going on. News will be forthcoming "in March." Reportedly Bill Bolin, Bob Johnson are to release the official news. I guess we can only speculate. I doubt it's good news.


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## CptBob

Pamlicotraveler said:


> I have heard that everyone involved is under a full non-disclosure contract and are not even allowed to discuss whatever is going on. News will be forthcoming "in March." Reportedly Bill Bolin, Bob Johnson are to release the official news. I guess we can only speculate. I doubt it's good news.


If it is good news, then their PR person should be fired haha.


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## newt

For those of you that insist that the IP is slow...
Chartering one in the Chesapeake a few years ago came across a decked out "faster" brand that was also headed to Saint Michel's- engaged in a little tacking duel to see who would get to the slip first. We started behind and ended 1 hour before they did! Observations:
Shallow keel allows passage were others will not go. Self tacking jib is useful in some situations. And these boats will sail if you learn their features and take advantage of them.
Besides- if you really have to get there take a flight.


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## Faster

newt said:


> For those of you that insist that the IP is slow...
> Chartering one in the Chesapeake a few years ago came across a decked out "faster" brand that was also headed to Saint Michel's- engaged in a little tacking duel to see who would get to the slip first. We started behind and ended 1 hour before they did! Observations:
> Shallow keel allows passage were others will not go. Self tacking jib is useful in some situations. And these boats will sail if you learn their features and take advantage of them.
> Besides- if you really have to get there take a flight.


.. ah.. but a fast sailor on a slow boat will almost always beat a slow sailor on a fast boat... (there's a compliment hidden in there somewhere!)


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## smackdaddy

Pamlicotraveler said:


> I have heard that everyone involved is under a full non-disclosure contract and are not even allowed to discuss whatever is going on. News will be forthcoming "in March." Reportedly Bill Bolin, Bob Johnson are to release the official news. I guess we can only speculate. I doubt it's good news.


So then how is it that Ausp has suddenly become their official spokesman?


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## seaner97

Maybe Marlowe will buy them and show them how it's done.


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## smackdaddy

They'd probably be better off with Beneteau:

Beneteau seeks continued expansion in U.S. | Trade Only Today

And from WikiP:



> Marlow Hunter and Marlow Mainship have no interest in high volume cheaply made value products, preferring the pursuit of the industries highest standards similar to the Marlow Yachts. However, with less than 60 employees, down from 450 in the mid-2000s, will this tatic of the highest quality at the highest price bring the brand back or even let it survive.


Of course, why any company would do something crazy like that is beyond me.


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## MarkofSeaLife

seaner97 said:


> Maybe Marlowe will buy them and show them how it's done.


I hear that Beneteau is going to buy them, make 5,000 per year at 1/4$.

u will have another boat to hate. Lol
:devil:devil:cut_out_animated_em:laugh


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## seaner97

MarkofSeaLife said:


> seaner97 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe Marlowe will buy them and show them how it's done.
> 
> 
> 
> I hear that Beneteau is going to buy them, make 5,000 per year at 1/4$.
> 
> u will have another boat to hate. Lol
Click to expand...

You're assuming I like IP as they are...
And I hate no one and no boat. I think they have trade offs. Some I would not make if I were calling the shots.


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## smackdaddy

What's wrong (actually it's very telling) with this marketing photo of the IP-BJ?


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## CptBob

I'll take a stab at it and say....the age of the folks sailing it?

Many of the other marketing pieces from other companies you'll see young folks in the advertisements.

- Cpt. Bob


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## Erindipity

"What's wrong (actually it's very telling) with this marketing photo of the IP-BJ?"

Left Hand Drive. If in Great Britain or the Territories, she would be seated to the Right.

¬Erindipity


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## S/VPeriwinkle

I have never owned an IP, but I have to say that I liked their approach to a keel (but I'm not sure how well it works). I came close to buying one until I learned about their chain plate problems and corroding tanks. I ended up getting a Pacific Seacraft (with chain plates on the outer hull and with a very costly -- but corrosion-free -- fiberglass fuel tank).

This will be great news for Pacific Seacraft. I think many folks looking for a strong offshore cruiser end up trying to decide between an IP and a Pacific Seacraft. Of course there are many used IPs floating around.

Periwinkle
--
Boat for sale ad removed per forum rules- Jeff_H SailNet moderator


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## robert sailor

The strong American dollar is wonderful for American cruisers but it's a killer on anything manufactured in America. It hasn't been strong for that long but give it a bit more time and in this case any boat builder in the states will be in trouble. Americans simply can't compete in those situations no matter how up to date their product is. If I was a boat builder in America I'd be trying to figure out how to get my manufacturing in some other country.


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## MarkofSeaLife

smackdaddy said:


> What's wrong (actually it's very telling) with this marketing photo of the IP-BJ?


The boat is as dead as the couple. The boat is virtually stopped. The nursing home wants its residents back. There's no romance. Even old people think they are young, wanna feel young.. The cockpit looks small.
Boat looks like a 15 year old Beneteau.

A woeful marketing photo.

Photo below is same size Beneteau.
Even if u didn't like Beneteaus you would have to have a look.


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## robert sailor

Well Mark you are right on one point and that is the age of your models. That said the you don't put young people in products designed for older people as that is just as wrong as what this company did. Normally you show people about 10 years younger than the buyer you are after as like you say people don't see themselves as old as they are, well except you and me.


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## outbound

Robert although I don't disagree with your premise I do think it reflects a disconnect between IPs thinking and the market.

When I was in my 20-30s no one bought a 40+ foot boat as their first boat. You generally worked your way up in size, complexity and cruising horizon.
Now it's common for people to take the path of ASA courses, charters and the nouveau riche to drop big bucks on a 45-55' mass production something as their first boat. These boats reflect what's available in the charter fleet as that style of boat is what this type of new boat buyer has been exposed to. These buyers have less exposure to sailing in adverse conditions, dealing with mistakes such as grounding or docking in crosswinds, needing to service their boats themselves nor spending more than a continuous week or two on a boat.
The new boat buyer has evolved into a different crowd than the old boat buyer. This is reflected in the emphasis on pleasure during temperate conditions while sailing, and entertaining when still. The visual clues of a no nonsense, salty vessel are not desired but rather as is true even for foodstuffs sex sells. Also as is true for cars, suv, trucks and houses there is more margin in bigger vessels so industry has responded in the appropriate fashion. The other driver is the quest for speed. Also deemed sexy.
The IPs would have been sold to new boat buyers who did not follow the current trends. I suspect it would a rare boat to buy as a first boat. I suspect new owners would have owned prior used boats and they would be thinking they were buying a salty, solid cruiser. Often the culmination of their dreams. Their "last boat". 
I believe those pictures reflect that gestalt.


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## robert sailor

Interesting observations and comments Outbound, thanks, I enjoyed reading your perspective.


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## eherlihy

smackdaddy said:


> What's wrong (actually it's very telling) with this marketing photo of the IP-BJ?


I'll only add this; No booze, and no young girls in bikinis...

That looks like a picture marketing an assisted living facility.


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## MastUndSchotbruch

eherlihy said:


> That looks like a picture marketing an assisted living facility.


If that's what an assisted living facility looks like, SIGN ME UP! :grin


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## capecodda

Let's face it. We sailboat owners are mutants, and every year there are fewer of us. 

How do you turn a billionaire into a millionaire? Get them to go into the business of building boats. Get them to focus on sailboats, and they can achieve this goal even faster. 

Hey but maybe there is a good business plan in this thread. As we all get to old to hold to crank winches, someone needs to start an Assisted Living Aboard Facility. A pile of young people (at least they'll have jobs this way) can sail us around, and maybe let us hold the wheel now and then.:laugh I think it would beat the barista career path by a mile!


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## outbound

A friend of my step daughter was a house guest for the last two weeks. He's an Aussie boat captain who runs and moves boats. We discussed his clients. Most are 40-60 somethings who have made a pile owning their various small cap companies. Few are life long cruisers. A rare few raced as young adults but most know jackpoop about maintenance, navigation, and the associated gov't paperwork associated with cruising. He is mostly paid by corporate check. Although he may live on a given boat for months or years with the owner commuting by jet for a few day block. 
It's here in this market the new boat offerings has big rewards for the builders. The rarified one off market or mega yacht is not the main purview of the production builders but this market is. Expect to more 50-60' monos and 45-60' multis aimed directly at this market and fewer boats <40'.
The new 50 something IP was not on their short list. A Bene 55 with more money spent on the sound system than the nav instruments fits just right.


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## Faster

capecodda said:


> ..... I think it would beat the barista career path by a mile!


.. and a Walmart greeter by ten


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## virtualground

> What's wrong (actually it's very telling) with this marketing photo of the IP-BJ?


I'll bite. One backstay appears to have a tensioner, and the other doesn't.


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## RocketScience

smackdaddy said:


> What's wrong (actually it's very telling) with this marketing photo of the IP-BJ?


Actually, it's not that far off.

Most the cruisers I run into that can drop $400K on a newer boat like the BJ are indeed of golden age. There are those exceptions, but certainly not the rule as I have seen it. One other factor as I see it is the 'maintenance/repair' end. Society these days just isn't churning out the kids that can _fix things_. A year or two after buying that $400K BJ, something is going to go wrong. You either pay the man, or fix it yourself, which requires $$. This is really nothing more than a income disparity thang. Which in this country, is ever widening. Couple this with the fact that young kids (<30) want nothing to do with fixing anything, it is what it is.

Most of us can only hope that there continues to be enough wealthy people around to buy these new boats, creating a used marketplace for us not so wealthy. But boats are a PITA, and you have to embrace that. Most the newer generation, wealthy or not, just doesn't consider the juice worth the squeeze.


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## bobperry

Virtual:
I can't see it in that photo but I would guess that it is one backstay running through a big sheave at the top of the bridle. So one cylinder puts tension on both legs of the backstay bridle.


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## virtualground

> I can't see it in that photo but I would guess that it is one backstay running through a big sheave at the top of the bridle. So one cylinder puts tension on both legs of the backstay bridle.


Ah, good. I just found a photo of the Blue Jacket 40 that shows backstays running to the masthead, but there's a small lump up there that is probably a block.

(I don't have enough posts here to post a pic or a link, but it's easy to Google.)


----------



## RocketScience

virtualground said:


> ...(I don't have enough posts here to post a pic or a link...)


...and the reason the "The Song Chain" thread has over 21K posts. :wink


----------



## smackdaddy

Why marketing matters...

http://www.bluejacketyachts.com/images/videos/blue_jacket_40_video.mp4


----------



## virtualground

RocketScience said:


> ...and the reason the song chain thread has over 21K posts. :wink


I'm trying to reach ten via irritating people in random threads every once in a while. There, you see, I'm at nine already!

When smackdaddy posted his comment about something glaringly wrong with the photo, I assumed it was something nautical rather than sociological. But I think I remember from his posts that he's a marketing guy, so maybe the comments about demographics are on the money.


----------



## Faster

RocketScience said:


> ...and the reason the "The Song Chain" thread has over 21K posts. :wink


I wish that was the case, but in reality there are only 3 or 4 regular posters to that thread (which is a bit of a gem if you're a music lover - and have a lot of free time )


----------



## xort

smackdaddy said:


> Why marketing matters...
> 
> http://www.bluejacketyachts.com/images/videos/blue_jacket_40_video.mp4


Thats what they post to try to sell a 400,000 boat? I see bankruptcy in their future :-(


----------



## Shockwave

At the end of the day, you still get what you pay for. An IP is not a boat that would work for me but they seem to be a better built boat then much of what's on they market.


----------



## smackdaddy

Shockwave said:


> At the end of the day, you still get what you pay for. An IP is not a boat that would work for me but they seem to be a better built boat then much of what's on they market.


Yeah, go figure shock. No one wants your archetypal "non-crap" boat despite your deeply held beliefs. I'm stunned.


----------



## Shockwave

Smack, looking forward to hearing about your experiences if you ever go sailing.


----------



## fallard

virtualground said:


> I'll bite. One backstay appears to have a tensioner, and the other doesn't.


You're all missing the lack of a throwable flotation device. But maybe that's because this is a stripped down model with no electronics and no dodger.


----------



## JimMcGee

Just looked. The web site is up (Island Packet Yachts | America's Cruising Yacht Leader).

I was curious so I tried the phones; they're down...

Hate to see these guys go under. I've never owned one of their boats, but I've run across a few people who did and they always seemed very pleased with their boat.


----------



## Minnewaska

Spoke to my friend who would like Blue Jacket to offer it in a 46. At the boat show, they told him they were waiting for an order to make one, but it's on the drawing board.

Anyway, an eviction notice and disconnected phones will have him on red alert over this company for some time. Can't wait to hear what they say on Tue or Wed, but I suspect there is little they can do to fully quiet the anxiety they created.

Would you give them a deposit right now? What if you gave them one at the New England/Miami boat show. Think those folks are inside the radio silence?


----------



## xort

Just heard thru the grapevine...there is a merger in the works.

The new company will be Island Packet Gunboat.


Yes, they are building a foiling IP.

The answer to "If pigs could fly" is soon at hand.


----------



## mitiempo

I doubt it would be a good move to merge with a bankrupt company - Gunboat. It may come back but is not in a position to help others at this time I don't think.

PETER JOHNSTONE: No Longer at the Helm at Gunboat


----------



## xort

I'm not sure which is worse; that you took me seriously or that you bought my idea they are building the "Flying Pig"!


----------



## seaner97

xort said:


> I'm not sure which is worse; that you took me seriously or that you bought my idea they are building the "Flying Pig"!


Are you kidding? The flying pig is exactly the sort of thing that would sell in the new boat market.


----------



## xort

Well, I guess some people are "buying it"!


----------



## Lantau

newt said:


> When I was shopping for a used cruiser, I saw a lot of IP 38's that I liked. I called up the factory (8 years ago) and asked if they would be willing to help with the rebuild of one. They told me they were too busy selling new ones to be worried about old ones.
> I went on to other boats....


Who knows, but this attitude from a boat builder is (should be?) suicidal. Who wants to buy from a company with that attitude. These boats cost as much as a house. Now try the same phone call with Pacific Seacraft and you'll get the opposite reaction: they are committed to keeping their used boats going. This is not only great for owners, but great for sales because it keeps the value up. And it's the way that any good company should behave.

R.I.P. Island Packet...


----------



## mitiempo

xort said:


> I'm not sure which is worse; that you took me seriously or that you bought my idea they are building the "Flying Pig"!


Actually I only read the first half - didn't get to the flying pig part.


----------



## mstern

Minnewaska said:


> Would you give them a deposit right now? What if you gave them one at the New England/Miami boat show. Think those folks are inside the radio silence?


Couldn't have happened. I went to the Miami boat show a couple of weeks ago; no IPs; no Seawards. None. That's the first time that's happened. It made me wonder at the time why two big Florida-based builders weren't at the show, especially when both brands were out in force at Newport in September. When I saw this thread, it clicked. All due respect to Auspicious, somethings up (or down).

And btw, the Mrs wouldn't miss IP; she really hates the buff colored gelcoat. On the other hand, she really liked the Blue Jacket. As for me, I like the IP, but don't want a full keel boat. And I think the BJ is way overpriced. However, the Seaward 32RK is my dream boat to buy new. If IP goes down, that greatly reduces my already slim chances of ever getting one.


----------



## smackdaddy

xort said:


> Just heard thru the grapevine...there is a merger in the works.
> 
> The new company will be Island Packet Gunboat.
> 
> Yes, they are building a foiling IP.
> 
> The answer to "If pigs could fly" is soon at hand.


Okay - now THAT'S funny.

GunPacket?


----------



## eherlihy

capecodda said:


> A pile of young people (at least they'll have jobs this way) can sail us around, and maybe let us hold the wheel now and then.:laugh I think it would beat the barista career path by a mile!


I do that already... it is called "sailing lessons."

I believe that I would make more money, and know that the benefits are better as a barista. Of course, I don't look that good in a bikini. Frankly, us sailors are cheap


----------



## SVAuspicious

CptBob said:


> Also odd for the phones to be turned off and not functioning. I'm sure it will all shake out in a few days.


I'm told that service providers for the phones are also underway. The time means someone somewhere dropped the ball. I still got through on the mobile numbers I have. Email is working also.



newt said:


> When I was shopping for a used cruiser, I saw a lot of IP 38's that I liked. I called up the factory (8 years ago) and asked if they would be willing to help with the rebuild of one. They told me they were too busy selling new ones to be worried about old ones.


I don't know when it started by IP does now have a refit program. Perhaps it was your call that put the seed of the idea in their mind? I don't know.



mstern said:


> However, the Seaward 32RK is my dream boat to buy new. If IP goes down, that greatly reduces my already slim chances of ever getting one.


IP builds Seaward boats for Hake Yachts who own the brand. IP doesn't own Seaward.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

RocketScience said:


> One other factor as I see it is the 'maintenance/repair' end. Society these days just isn't churning out the kids that can _fix things_. A year or two after buying that $400K BJ, something is going to go wrong.


Ridiculous to spend $400k on something that falls apart or one needs to get their hands dirty fixing it.
Its the modern world!
Make it so it doesn't break and if it does make sure its Plug and Play to replace.

I spent my whole f'ing life making money to retire on, NOT to become a boat plumber, engine mechanics or bilge sweeper 

This is what the new generation demand. Provide it or go broke!


> Cereal isn't favored by millennials for breakfast because it's too much work to eat,


http://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/716207

The world's a changin, can you oldies keep up?


----------



## Minnewaska

MarkofSeaLife said:


> ....I spent my whole f'ing life making money to retire on, NOT to become a boat plumber, engine mechanics or bilge sweeper


If you pulled that off, I'm jealous. My spring commissioning list is full of plumbing, diesel work, etc and I'm not aboard full time.

p.s. the idea of eating cereal for breakfast is a fairly modern (and incredibly unhealthy) practice from approx the 1950s. Kids should reject it. Kellogg drove it with the original corn flakes, iirc. A bowl of cereal and glass of OJ is practically packaged diabetes.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

If the kids of today find eating crap too time consuming they will never find time to cook up something good like eggs scrambled with cream and a fatty but of non-processed bacon.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Minnewaska said:


> If you pulled that off, I'm jealous. My spring commissioning list is full of plumbing, diesel work, etc and I'm not aboard full time.


I am doing most of the work myself  my point was the market point must be to lower maintenance boats... like cars have evolved over the years.


----------



## Shockwave

Boat and low maintenance in the same sentence? I want to drink what you're drinking. : )


----------



## RobGallagher

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I am doing most of the work myself  my point was the market point must be to lower maintenance boats... like cars have evolved over the years.


Interesting. In 2014 I traded in a 2003 Nissan pickup truck w/ 150K miles. It required wiper blades, oil changes, one set of brakes and one set of tires. The tires lasted nearly 100K miles.

I now drive a Nissan Leaf. I'm on just about on two years with zero maintenance. Nothing. I plug in at night in my garage, no oil to check, nothing. Oh, I did add wiper fluid. 

Boats will catch up. It's gonna take a lot longer.


----------



## Shockwave

I don't see boats catching up, I see them going the other way. Boats today are system rich with less access to said systems then ever before (think pans and liners). The only progress being made is a move to throw away boats.


----------



## robert sailor

Couldn't agree more, we are in a throw away society and new boats reflect this.


----------



## robert sailor

Hey Mark, you must be in your outrageous statement time of the month, lol. Boats are nothing but work.we are in loose company with a couple with a new boat and it's been one thing after another for them, fortunately nothing big. Crossing oceans is real hard on gear and whether it's a new boat or an older one you'll be fixing stuff on the other side, guaranteed!!
But hey Harken has a new system that will run off your laptop that will auto tack and trim your sails while underway and you don't have to touch a thing, how cool is that! Now if they could just get a boat to dock itself I wouldn't have had to wreck my back trying to save someone else's boat while a complete idiot was doing his best to damage it.


----------



## newt

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - now THAT'S funny
> 
> GunPacket?


They could start a small class of foil cats and call them "bullets"


SVAuspicious said:


> I don't know when it started by IP does now have a refit program. Perhaps it was your call that put the seed of the idea in their mind? I don't know.


That is great news. I will reconsider if I ever sell my Valiant.


----------



## RocketScience

Shockwave said:


> I don't see boats catching up, I see them going the other way. Boats today are system rich with less access to said systems then ever before (think pans and liners)...


And kinda the point of my previous post.

You can put all the half naked 30, 40, or 50 somethings in that BJ marketing clip you want and re-shoot it in 20kts with the rail in the water, but that social demographic just don't have that type of cash (again, from my perspective). Now, shoot that same marketing clip with say a new *$250K* Catalina 425, and you may just have some takers.


----------



## mstern

SVAuspicious said:


> IP builds Seaward boats for Hake Yachts who own the brand. IP doesn't own Seaward.


I understood that; my point was that when Hake moved production to IP, they must have unwound their own ability to build boats. If their current builder (IP) goes under, then Hake is going to have to scramble to find someone else. I sincerely hope this is much ado about nothing and IP is fine. But eviction notices and phone shutoffs are rarely just misunderstandings....


----------



## kwaltersmi

It's a shame if they do go under. Whether you like IPs or not, it's nice to have an alternative to the open transom/twin wheel/beamy stern/plumb bow designs that so many of the big names are going to these days. And they did just launch a new line of open power picnic boats (L24, etc.). I personally like the L24s, but they seem to be even more of a niche product (water taxi?) than a production full-keel cruiser with an off-white hull color.

I exchanged a few emails with Bob Johnson back in November for a blog post. He seemed really upbeat about IP and their designs moving forward, which I guess shouldn't be a surprise. You can read my full mini-interview with Bob here, but here's a summary of the 4 questions I asked and his responses:

1) Sum up your sailboat design philosophy in a sentence or two.

BJ:Any new sailboat design depends on establishing the priorities for a given vessels. The goal then is to create a design that meets most or all of these objectives in a functional and attractive way, balancing design and construction elements that frequently can be in conflict with one another. Given the same input, experienced designers are likely to create very different solutions.

2) What's one of your personal favorite sailboats that you designed and why?

BJ: I am probably most identified with the numerous designs for the Island Packet range of yachts that I have created over the last 35 years. Like family members, all have their own personality and individual history making it hard to identify a personal favorite. However, I was among the crew on an IP35 in the 1990 Annapolis-Bermuda race when we took first-in-class and second-overall honors, so that's an extra "gold star" for that particular design.

3) Is there a sailboat design and/or designer that inspired your own work or career?

BJ: I have always been a fan of both Phil Rhodes' and Bill Atkin's work.

4) Is it more difficult to design a sailboat that looks good or sails good?

BJ: One always strives to create an "attractive" boat, and to a large degree this is a qualitative judgment dependent on the boat's intended use and the eye of the beholder. A boat that "sails well" is a combination of both qualitative and quantitative assessments, further complicated by the skills of the skipper (as demonstrated by observing the broad distribution of boats at the finish line of almost any one-design race).


----------



## Minnewaska

I guess we get to find out what's really going on tomorrow. Or the next day.


----------



## seaner97

RocketScience said:


> Shockwave said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see boats catching up, I see them going the other way. Boats today are system rich with less access to said systems then ever before (think pans and liners)...
> 
> 
> 
> And kinda the point of my previous post.
> 
> You can put all the half naked 30, 40, or 50 somethings in that BJ marketing clip you want and re-shoot it in 20kts with the rail in the water, but that social demographic just don't have that type of cash (again, from my perspective). Now, shoot that same marketing clip with say a new *$250K* Catalina 425, and you may just have some takers.
Click to expand...

I swim with a relatively affluent crowd, and don't know many people in their 30s and 40s that could or *would* go to even 250k


----------



## miatapaul

smackdaddy said:


> Why marketing matters...
> 
> http://www.bluejacketyachts.com/images/videos/blue_jacket_40_video.mp4





smackdaddy said:


> What's wrong (actually it's very telling) with this marketing photo of the IP-BJ?


Well given that this is supposed to be a "performance cruiser" one would think even if they did not use young models, they would at least show it sailing in a sporty fashion. Perhaps they are just showing loyalty to the models they first hired 40 years ago! They like many of us, were a bit younger back then! One way to save on money lock your marketing models into a lifetime contract.

That video is just plain sad. If you are marketing an "performance offshore cruising" boat, perhaps show it in some exotic location or something, not doing a coastal day sail.

Does anyone know if the Blue jacket has completely accessible chain-plates that are fiberglassed in? Or does it have that Slurry of metal plugs and concrete in the keel? I always thought for what they charged they took some pretty lame shortcuts.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Good example of how cars are streaking ahead of boats:

(You gotta remember I have been cruising for 8 years. The only cars I drive have Avis on the side... and small/tiny)

Security on my boat is popping padlocks which are bolt cutable.

My mate has just bought a new BMW and asks if I want to drive it. (Yes, I think he's crackers too!)

So he gives be a bit of plastic to go in my pocket. When I get near the car the doors automatically open.
There is no ignition key. I just push the start button and the engine starts. I drive. I park turn it off. Get out, walk away and car locks its self.

I give back the piece of plastic that's been in the bottom of my pocket.

This might be normal to you guys but I am flabbergasted!!!


----------



## Minnewaska

MarkofSeaLife said:


> ......This might be normal to you guys but I am flabbergasted!!!


Yup, you've been away for a while. 

This is pretty common now, even on mid-range autos. Mine (Jeep) will also not allow me to leave the keys in the car and attempt to lock the door. It will also scream bloody murder, if I walk away with the key and the car is running (ie so the valet/garage doesn't try to drive her away without it).

I do look forward to the day I sail away and begin to lose touch like you. Genuinely


----------



## jephotog

smackdaddy said:


> Why marketing matters...
> 
> http://www.bluejacketyachts.com/images/videos/blue_jacket_40_video.mp4


That video looks like it was filmed on a gopro someone received for Xmas and broke it out for the first time to make this commercial. They had just enough money leftover to pay someone to edit it and add sound.

I just checked, their website is still up so they are still in business as far as I am concerned.


----------



## jephotog

miatapaul said:


> Well given that this is supposed to be a "performance cruiser" one would think even if they did not use young models, they would at least show it sailing in a sporty fashion. Perhaps they are just showing loyalty to the models they first hired 40 years ago! They like many of us, were a bit younger back then! One way to save on money lock your marketing models into a lifetime contract.


Maybe older models cost less than pretty, young ones.


----------



## miatapaul

jephotog said:


> Maybe older models cost less than pretty, young ones.


I think they are using the same ones from when they started the company. heck they aren't even looking at each other like they are having fun. They look like they just had a fight and won't look at one another. Normally they have them looking each other in the eyes like they are happy or something.


----------



## SVAuspicious

Minnewaska said:


> p.s. the idea of eating cereal for breakfast is a fairly modern (and incredibly unhealthy) practice from approx the 1950s. Kids should reject it. Kellogg drove it with the original corn flakes, iirc. A bowl of cereal and glass of OJ is practically packaged diabetes.


Original Cheerios aren't too bad.

If the stereotypical millennial thinks cereal is too much work imagine them cleaning up after eggs and bacon and an apple.



newt said:


> That is great news. I will reconsider if I ever sell my Valiant.


Valiants are great boats.


----------



## utchuckd

So...what happened? Was there an announcement? Is there another thread updating this that I missed?

Enquiring minds and all that...


----------



## hellsop

MarkofSeaLife said:


> My mate has just bought a new BMW and asks if I want to drive it. (Yes, I think he's crackers too!)
> 
> So he gives be a bit of plastic to go in my pocket. When I get near the car the doors automatically open.
> There is no ignition key. I just push the start button and the engine starts. I drive. I park turn it off. Get out, walk away and car locks its self.
> 
> I give back the piece of plastic that's been in the bottom of my pocket.
> 
> This might be normal to you guys but I am flabbergasted!!!


And that's not even a new, high-end thing. My 2012 Chevy does it.

Of course, a friend of mine has a 5-year-old airplane, and it still has a carburetor, manual mixture, and magnetos instead of an alternator, so boats aren't the slowest thing to add technology. (OTOH, it came with an iPod dock, so...)


----------



## SVAuspicious

utchuckd said:


> So...what happened? Was there an announcement? Is there another thread updating this that I missed?
> 
> Enquiring minds and all that...


I'm not sure why there has not been an announcement, and I'm not sure why the phones are still down.

I have confidence in my source. I already interrupted his Saturday last weekend and won't repeat that today. I'll send him an email and see what he says I can share.


----------



## xort

It gets complicated whenever the sheriff padlocks the doors


----------



## S/VPeriwinkle

newt said:


> When I was shopping for a used cruiser, I saw a lot of IP 38's that I liked. I called up the factory (8 years ago) and asked if they would be willing to help with the rebuild of one. They told me they were too busy selling new ones to be worried about old ones.
> I went on to other boats....


Try that with a Pacific Seacraft. The factory will almost hug you through the phone. They recognize that their boats last forever and that they cannot survive without having continuing maintenance as part of their business model.


----------



## uncle stinky bob

SVAuspicious said:


> I'm not sure why there has not been an announcement, and I'm not sure why the phones are still down.
> 
> I have confidence in my source. I already interrupted his Saturday last weekend and won't repeat that today. I'll send him an email and see what he says I can share.


Seems they have adopted a "Success Through Silence" business model? Guess we will never know how it's working out for them as all seems top secret.


----------



## Minnewaska

SVAuspicious said:


> ......I have confidence in my source......


I'm sure they told you what they understood to be the case. Lawyers intentionally keep all the details to a very few people.

The sad part for IP is the damage is being done by the day. Even if they reopened today, they would have a steep hill to climb, before I would ever drop a deposit into their hands.

I'm hoping their situation improves and they recover. It's an American FRP classic cruiser (albeit not my choice). It would be sad to see them go out of existence, like so many before them.


----------



## JimMcGee

SVAuspicious said:


> I'm not sure why there has not been an announcement, and I'm not sure why the phones are still down.
> 
> I have confidence in my source. I already interrupted his Saturday last weekend and won't repeat that today. I'll send him an email and see what he says I can share.


Just curious if there's an update?


----------



## Izzy

smackdaddy said:


> What's wrong (actually it's very telling) with this marketing photo of the IP-BJ?
> 
> The people in the IP promotional photo look to be confused as to why the boat isn't moving. Saying to themselves, WTF?


----------



## SVAuspicious

JimMcGee said:


> Just curious if there's an update?


I got an email from my friend/source at IPY. I can share that details are taking a frustrating amount of time to work through and that I should stand by.

That's all I have.

If I had permission to share what I have been told there would be less angst.


----------



## xort

This is likely a very complicated situation. Might take a while, might fall apart altogether.


----------



## smackdaddy

Izzy said:


> smackdaddy said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's wrong (actually it's very telling) with this marketing photo of the IP-BJ?
> 
> The people in the IP promotional photo look to be confused as to why the boat isn't moving. Saying to themselves, WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> Heh-heh. Another thing I love about it is the dual helm set up. When I was banned over at CF for using the word "chucklheads" for those who dislike modern production boats, one of the moderators there, AVB3, said such a set-up is for "posers". And here it is on the IP!
> 
> So it begs the question, are the sailors in this pic "chuckleheads" or "posers"? Someone go over to CF and ask AVB3 so he can clear it up.
Click to expand...


----------



## mstern

Anybody heard anything new?


----------



## uncle stinky bob

mstern said:


> Anybody heard anything new?


Island Packet Yacht's. area code 727-535-6431. It's all very hush hush.


----------



## mstern

Did you call them?


----------



## uncle stinky bob

mstern said:


> Did you call them?


Yes I did, and have several times over the course of the last few month's. Phone is disconnected. No longer in business.


----------



## robert sailor

Everything has a beginning and an ending, it's just part of life.Nothing goes on forever.


----------



## colemj

robert sailor said:


> Everything has a beginning and an ending, it's just part of life.Nothing goes on forever.


Then how do you explain the song thread?

Mark


----------



## smackdaddy

uncle stinky bob said:


> Yes I did, and have several times over the course of the last few month's. Phone is disconnected. No longer in business.


Wait - so you're saying Ausp was wrong again? Oh the horror!


----------



## Lazerbrains

I suppose it is the "Walmart mentality" of people today. 

It used to be that people valued quality products that last - that was then perceived as "value". 

Now everyone wants the most features for the cheapest price - that is today what is seen as "value". 

That is how we end up with snub-nosed boats that pound in waves, but who cares because they sure did cram a bunch of stuff in there! 

Who wants bronze ports, encapsulated keel, and other seaworthy items, when you can have much more room below with a Hunter for half the price - who cares if the keel is bolted on and the ports are plastic, it costs less and you get *more*.

Why go to a nice steak restaurant when you can go to Golden Corral and get *more* for *less*. It's not about quality, it's about quantity.

That is what drives the market these days, and why Catalina, Bene, Hunter, etc. continue to thrive.


----------



## Scotty C-M

Perhaps the reason that Catalina and other brands thrive is that they offer both quality and price. That is my opinion.


----------



## miatapaul

smackdaddy said:


> Wait - so you're saying Ausp was wrong again? Oh the horror!


My guess is they were looking for a buyer, seems it has to be time for the owners to retire(just look at who they chose as models for their ads!), but likely no buyer has been found or they backed out, and the lease ran out, then perhaps a few last ditch efforts to sell and well no go. I can't imagine they will come back. After all how much does it take to keep a phone line active. Once you let it go you can't guarantee to get the old one back so you would at least transfer it to a google number and set up voice mail for free, or add it to your home cable bill for about $10 a month if you had any intention of staying in business.


----------



## miatapaul

Lazerbrains said:


> I suppose it is the "Walmart mentality" of people today.
> 
> It used to be that people valued quality products that last - that was then perceived as "value".
> 
> Now everyone wants the most features for the cheapest price - that is today what is seen as "value".
> 
> That is how we end up with snub-nosed boats that pound in waves, but who cares because they sure did cram a bunch of stuff in there!
> 
> Who wants bronze ports, encapsulated keel, and other seaworthy items, when you can have much more room below with a Hunter for half the price - who cares if the keel is bolted on and the ports are plastic, it costs less and you get *more*.
> 
> Why go to a nice steak restaurant when you can go to Golden Corral and get *more* for *less*. It's not about quality, it's about quantity.
> 
> That is what drives the market these days, and why Catalina, Bene, Hunter, etc. continue to thrive.


That would be great, but it is debatable if Island Packet really gave that. Certainly there boats are known for not having great motion at sea, and poor performance. That encapsulated keel is great, if filled with lead, but not if it is concrete and whatever slurry they throw in there this month, and encapsulating the chain-plates in the hull so they cannot be inspected is not the best, or even good practice. So much of what IP offered was as much the image of a passage-maker. The boats though were finished to a very high quality and did seem to be excellent boats, especially in there home waters of Florida the the Caribbean, with there shallow draft. I don't think though they kept up with the current view on what makes a good cruising boat, such as a Southerly proving you don't have to loose performance to gain shallow draft or even that of the Valiant of the 1970's.


----------



## smackdaddy

Lazerbrains said:


> I suppose it is the "Walmart mentality" of people today.
> 
> It used to be that people valued quality products that last - that was then perceived as "value".
> 
> Now everyone wants the most features for the cheapest price - that is today what is seen as "value".
> 
> That is how we end up with snub-nosed boats that pound in waves, but who cares because they sure did cram a bunch of stuff in there!
> 
> Who wants bronze ports, encapsulated keel, and other seaworthy items, when you can have much more room below with a Hunter for half the price - who cares if the keel is bolted on and the ports are plastic, it costs less and you get *more*.
> 
> Why go to a nice steak restaurant when you can go to Golden Corral and get *more* for *less*. It's not about quality, it's about quantity.
> 
> That is what drives the market these days, and why Catalina, Bene, Hunter, etc. continue to thrive.


Well, this is very simplistic view of a much more complex issue - but whatever floats your steak restaurant.


----------



## ScottUK

miatapaul said:


> I don't think though they kept up with the current view on what makes a good cruising boat, such as a Southerly proving you don't have to loose performance to gain shallow draft or even that of the Valiant of the 1970's.


I would think with Southerly having gone into receivership twice in the last few year invalidates your premise.


----------



## miatapaul

ScottUK said:


> I would think with Southerly having gone into receivership twice in the last few year invalidates your premise.


Are they answering there phones?


----------



## ScottUK

miatapaul said:


> Are they answering there phones?


Do not understand the relevance of your question since both appear to have had recent financial difficulties.


----------



## Lazerbrains

Scotty C-M said:


> Perhaps the reason that Catalina and other brands thrive is that they offer both quality and price. That is my opinion.


Conpared to what? Compared to a Pacific Seacraft? Compared to a MacGregor?

Price and quality are all relative.


----------



## uncle stinky bob

smackdaddy said:


> Wait - so you're saying Ausp was wrong again? Oh the horror!


HA HA, I admit to nothing.....except that I.P. is gone! as far as some folks thinking the business is merely up for sale......what business? When I sold my company, it sold because it was thriving, with door's wide open and serving my customer's, present and future. and the deal was that my customer's, that had been loyal to me and I to them would continue to receive the same service I had always given them.

When a company act's like this, all they can do is sell off their tooling.
At this point I would imagine after the fire sale someone might buy the molds? and I would expect a name change. The way Island Packet SLAMMED the door shut, turned off the phones and ignore all who have given loyalty to them is nothing more than a death knell.


----------



## WharfRat

I can't see IP ever opening its doors again under that name. You are likely correct that the machinery will be liquidated and that will be the end of that. Not too many big hedge funds out there looking to acquire boatbuilders that have gone dark for months.

Still, kinda sad...


----------



## NCC320

Lazerbrains said:


> I suppose it is the "Walmart mentality" of people today.
> 
> It used to be that people valued quality products that last - that was then perceived as "value".
> 
> Now everyone wants the most features for the cheapest price - that is today what is seen as "value".
> 
> That is how we end up with snub-nosed boats that pound in waves, but who cares because they sure did cram a bunch of stuff in there!
> 
> Who wants bronze ports, encapsulated keel, and other seaworthy items, when you can have much more room below with a Hunter for half the price - who cares if the keel is bolted on and the ports are plastic, it costs less and you get *more*.
> 
> Why go to a nice steak restaurant when you can go to Golden Corral and get *more* for *less*. It's not about quality, it's about quantity.
> 
> That is what drives the market these days, and why Catalina, Bene, Hunter, etc. continue to thrive.


Lazer,

When you talk about quality, you are ignoring a key constraint for most people. Perhaps, it doesn't apply to you, but most people have limitations on how much they are willing or can devote to the hobby/sport of boating. The amount of money available defines almost everything that follows. Under this restraint, the potential boat buyer looks for the best match of quality and value in addition to finding a boat that gives those things that are important to that particular buyer. One wants large living quarters with no real consideration of sailing open oceans, someone else wants a boat suited for racing, another has cruising as a key objective while the guy in the next slip only wants a day sailor. I submit that Hunter, Beneteau, and Catalina survive because they give that best combination of wants, quality, and price for the largest group of buyers. Those guys that tend to build only the best typically find that there really is a limited market for their products and sometimes go out of business. I don't think there are very many owners of MacGregors, Hunters, Beneteaus, and Catalinas that don't understand and recognize there are better quality boats, although at high prices. The high prices make those fancy boats a no-go situation.


----------



## Lazerbrains

NCC320 said:


> I submit that Hunter, Beneteau, and Catalina survive because they give that best combination of wants, quality, and price for the largest group of buyers. Those guys that tend to build only the best typically find that there really is a limited market for their products and sometimes go out of business.


I think that is basically a different way of saying the same thing that I did. I'm not not making a case as to which is better, just making an observation about the market - most people want low price boats with lots of goodies, hence the popularity of C, B, and H. Heavily built boats are a niche market, cost more, and the "value" is not perceived by most as important - hence the downfall of IP.


----------



## miatapaul

Well with the exception of their motor sailor and the blue jacket (neither of them really had much of a market) they were just selling the same stuff they sold for 40 plus years, why buy new when you can get a 20 year old one for a quarter the price even after refitting. Now if you won't even participate in the refit then you are out of business. Pacific Seacraft likly does more refit business than new boats. So you throw that away and you no longer have a sustainable business model. 
They were slow to make changes and when thy did they really seemed to only make the situation worse buy not marketing well.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## Lazerbrains

I agree that is a large part of it. Also factor in the large number of Westsails, Hans Christians, Tayanas, etc. etc. on the used market for much less than a new one. Heavy cruisers like this are generally well made to withstand extended cruising, so most have survived and many are in good shape, for a fraction of the price. That's a lot of competition right there. It's a tough market to be building that type of boat.



miatapaul said:


> Well with the exception of their motor sailor and the blue jacket (neither of them really had much of a market) they were just selling the same stuff they sold for 40 plus years, why buy new when you can get a 20 year old one for a quarter the price even after refitting. Now if you won't even participate in the refit then you are out of business. Pacific Seacraft likly does more refit business than new boats. So you throw that away and you no longer have a sustainable business model.
> They were slow to make changes and when thy did they really seemed to only make the situation worse buy not marketing well.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## outbound

Still really like the 52 they just came out with before their demise. Wonder if the expense of working up that model had anything to do with their closing their doors after their attempt at a fin failed. 
Shame the "quality "production builders are either dropping production of boats suitable to mom and pop and going for mini mega yachts ( Baltic/Swan/Oyster) or are in or moved to Asia and Poland (Hylas/Passport/Outbound). Morris is now Hinckley has always priced out of everyone but the 0.01%ers budget. Even Amel and HR seem more interested in pushing their really big boats. And one could argue the big Amel is not in the tradition of their prior offerings. 
No more Valiants, very rare PSCs, lots of one offs but otherwise no US made stick built boats at anything close to reasonable cost. Across the pond no more Sweden, Malo, Finnboats etc. 
Wonder if Cape George makes any boats or are full keel boats entirely a thing of the past.

Rambling I'll stop now.


----------



## blt2ski

Cape George frankly is building a few boats, but not many. They have one in a barn that has been there for three years being worked on. BUT, they will do redo's of older boats. 
The workers and owner are nice folks, but not sure that they will/would be able to continue with what they have. For some of the same reasons PSC, Valiant, now IP.....probably even Morris to a degree, same old same old stuff. YOu can buy a 20 yr old rig, do a major refurbish, and still be out less money than a new one by a few bucks!

Marty


----------



## mitiempo

There's Rustler in the UK - one of the few left.


----------



## Minnewaska

uncle stinky bob said:


> Yes I did, and have several times over the course of the last few month's. Phone is disconnected. No longer in business.


I was standing on their Blue Jacket at the New England Boat show, just four weeks ago, so I don't think they've been shut down as long as you've implied.

Nevertheless, this looks bad for them.


----------



## robert sailor

Good point although in the end it too will die out. We humans do eventually give up.


----------



## uncle stinky bob

Minnewaska said:


> I was standing on their Blue Jacket at the New England Boat show, just four weeks ago, so I don't think they've been shut down as long as you've implied.
> 
> Nevertheless, this looks bad for them.


OK, you got me, I checked my cell phone it will be 7 weeks tomorrow that I made the first call. 
I don't doubt you at all about standing on the deck, perhaps they were just trying to unload the last one they had built and had a large amount invested? 
Did they happen to mention anything about closing their door's? 
I wonder if the boat sold?
Wouldn't that suck for a guy buying a brand new boat.....only to find the company disappeared after your purchase? 
it's difficult to shine turd's, is it not?


----------



## mstern

And IP had just taken over production of the Seaward boats too. I wonder what this means for Seaward? When I spoke with their rep at Newport in the fall, she said that IP had excess capacity and that it was a good fit for both companies. I don't know when the actual transfer of production happened, or if Hake is capable of taking back the production of their own boats at this point. I haven't called them, but the Seaward website is alive and well. I hope they come out of this OK.


----------



## Minnewaska

uncle stinky bob said:


> ...... Did they happen to mention anything about closing their door's?


Not a word about it. In fact, my buddy, who was the more interested party here, even asked them about when they might build the 46ft version. I was standing there, when the rep said they were waiting for an order. That would have been the time to say, the factory isn't ever building another one, ever. (although, let's be fair here, we really don't know the status)

I was at the New England Boat Show on Sat, Feb 13, just four weeks ago. I'm pretty sure the eviction notice that was posted above, in this thread, was dated at the end of Feb.



> Wouldn't that suck for a guy buying a brand new boat.....only to find the company disappeared after your purchase?
> it's difficult to shine turd's, is it not?


You bet it would. Unless their story is easily understood, and I'm at a loss to think what that could be, they'll have a tough time getting their next deposit, even if they come back to life.


----------



## SVAuspicious

I've stayed in touch with my source on this issue. Although I count him a friend I am as frustrated as anyone else (including him) with the pace of information availability. I am told a press release was completed yesterday and is being reviewed for approval.

I can't explain the duration of disconnected phones. It is not consistent with other information shared with me. That distresses me.


----------



## uncle stinky bob

SVAuspicious said:


> I've stayed in touch with my source on this issue. Although I count him a friend I am as frustrated as anyone else (including him) with the pace of information availability. I am told a press release was completed yesterday and is being reviewed for approval.
> 
> I can't explain the duration of disconnected phones. It is not consistent with other information shared with me. That distresses me.


Yes, I agree. problems can and do occur, thats very understandable. It's the silence that would indicate more than just the normal business issues that arise. I do hope they can pull it together and create some form of damage control. They seem to have a good "fan" base.


----------



## capecodda

I feel bad for everyone involved. No matter what's going on, it's not good for business.

Three times, I got into serious conversations with boat builders and ended up walking away as our due diligence included looking at the viability of their businesses as ongoing concerns before we'd sign a deal. Getting half done and finding someone else to finish is hard enough when it comes to a house; a boat, well IMHO THAT would be a mess. In one of the 3 cases, 3 months later they went under. In the other 2 they barely scraped by. Good builders, good people, just sad. These were not big corporate entities, they were run by passionate people who loved what they did. 

Boat building is a lousy business. I wish everyone well involved in this, customers, builders, employees, suppliers. No matter what kind of sailboat any of us prefer, if we want this hobby to survive, we need suppliers building sail boats of all types, and new people who want to join the sport.


----------



## JimMcGee

capecodda said:


> Boat building is a lousy business. I wish everyone well involved in this, customers, builders, employees, suppliers. No matter what kind of sailboat any of us prefer, if we want this hobby to survive, we need suppliers building sail boats of all types, and new people who want to join the sport.


Well said


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> Well, this is very simplistic view of a much more complex issue....


Ill give you my simplistic view of this complex issue.

They made pink boats. 
They wouldn't give up the staysail boom.

That was enough to lose my business right there. The shallow-draft didn't help either.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## smackdaddy

MedSailor said:


> Ill give you my simplistic view of this complex issue.
> 
> They made pink boats.
> They wouldn't give up the staysail boom.
> 
> That was enough to lose my business right there. The shallow-draft didn't help either.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


Actually, I think you nailed it.

Old-world "BlueWater Thinking" doesn't sell. Obviously.


----------



## Minnewaska

I'm surprised there isn't a dealer talking somewhere. There have to be a few with a boat or two in inventory (whose new value might have nearly halved)

Didn't one of the rags declare the Blue Jacket to be boat of the year recently? Too little, too late?


----------



## aa3jy

Chapter 11


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, I think you nailed it.
> 
> Old-world "BlueWater Thinking" doesn't sell. Obviously.


Maybe.... but I didn't say anything about blue water.

Was it the pink part that I said that made it blue water?
Was it the shoal draft?
Maybe the staysail boom (which I've never seen endorsed as a "bluewater trait".)

Less pink and more Saunas I say! That'll sell.

MEdSailor


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## Daniel5715

Just hate to see another American company go down the tubes...
Sad.


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## MedSailor

What's happening in the big picture of yacht manufacturers? There are MANY brands of boats out there of the 70s-90s vintage that have extinct builders. Are new outfits springing up as fast as the old ones shut their doors? Is the herd thinning? On the other hand, is the landscape changing from large builders to small custom/semi-custom builders?

MedSailor


----------



## Omatako

MedSailor said:


> What's happening in the big picture of yacht manufacturers? There are MANY brands of boats out there of the 70s-90s vintage that have extinct builders. Are new outfits springing up as fast as the old ones shut their doors? Is the herd thinning? On the other hand, is the landscape changing from large builders to small custom/semi-custom builders?
> 
> MedSailor


No, everyone is buying Hunters, Beneteus, Jeanneaus and Hanses.  Long live the "production boat".

Is it not interesting that the expensive, niche-market boat builders are failing and yet the Bentleys/Ferraris/Lambhorginis of this world have waiting lists for hand-built products at astronomical prices? I guess sailing/voyaging is not that popular after all.


----------



## JimMcGee

Omatako said:


> Is it not interesting that the expensive, niche-market boat builders are failing and yet the Bentleys/Ferraris/Lambhorginis of this world have waiting lists for hand-built products at astronomical prices? I guess sailing/voyaging is not that popular after all.


Because we all live in a boating community we forget how small our numbers are.

Only 17% of US households own boats, which includes power, sail, PWC, canoes, kayaks and inflatables.

Of that 17%, only 3.7% own sailboats.

That's a SMALL number in the grand scheme of things. It means builders need to be VERY focused on what their customers want. It's a very difficult business.

The numbers come from this USCG report on page 41


----------



## capecodda

Here's another report. Worth a scan. Jim's right, those of us who love to sail and hang around with sailors, tend to have a false impression of how many people are in the sport.

http://www.cruisingworld.com/sites/...s/the_sailing_market_2014_with_2013_data1.pdf


----------



## newt

From what I have seen, less than one boat in 10 is a cruising sailboat. Small indeed. We represent 0.1% of the population, if even that. Explains why everywhere I go there are just a few cruisers (except maybe the Sailish Sea)
PSC is the only one still selling cruising sailboats I guess. And a occasional Cape George.


----------



## smackdaddy

newt said:


> From what I have seen, less than one boat in 10 is a cruising sailboat. Small indeed. We represent 0.1% of the population, if even that. Explains why everywhere I go there are just a few cruisers (except maybe the Sailish Sea)
> PSC is the only one still selling cruising sailboats I guess. And a occasional Cape George.


Galveston Bay is home to some pretty great sailing. Lots and lots of boats there. But not many IPs. That's for sure.


----------



## robert sailor

There is a ton of IP in the windward and leeward islands, so far haven't seen one in the Western Caribbean but I'm sure there are some around


----------



## Minnewaska

I see an IP around fairly routinely. There was one in our marina, owned by a couple from the West Coast, who took off cruising a year or so back. When I first bought this boat, I was in a slip next to a transient that had just bought his IP. We were swapping notes on why we chose what we chose. It was clear, he wanted nothing but an IP. They have (had) a following. Obviously not a big enough following, however.


----------



## outbound

Think the market has changed as has the way boats are used.
IP is(was) a expensive, well made boat. Believe their buyers were typically boomers wanting a sturdy boat. The "kids" would want something faster. The flash crowd would want something sexier. The long term cruisers would want something that could point and avoid putting the engine on in light air. Although they're super comfy down below the companion way steps were a chore going up and down or in a seaway. The Hoyt boom is a knee knocker and there's lots of stuff to trip on walking the decks. With its high freeboard and stern configuration it's hard to climb on/off at dock.
Pluses are very well made, very modest draft but still good avs, very liveable, salty looking and easy to run. We are in their target market but never considered them due to sailing polar. Guess there are many like us so they got into trouble.


----------



## RocketScience

Minnewaska said:


> I see an IP around fairly routinely...


Quite a few around our neck of the woods also. In fact our marina neighbors own a 440. Beautiful boat, and built like a brick sh**house. They are however, well to do, retired, and could have been the sit-in crew for that Blue Jacket marketing photo op shown earlier.


----------



## sailordave

Several years ago (1999?) I was at a boat show and went on an IP. Noticed a dearth of handholds where I would expect to see some. I commented to the salesman about this and his response was something along the lines of "the boat only heels over about 10 degrees so you don't need many handholds". Yeah, right.

I walked right out even more convinced that I never wanted an IP.


----------



## mikel1

Did I miss some "press release" that was being "proof read" . . . .?


----------



## uncle stinky bob

mikel1 said:


> Did I miss some "press release" that was being "proof read" . . . .?


Ssshhhhh, it's top secret! that they are gone.


----------



## smackdaddy

mikel1 said:


> Did I miss some "press release" that was being "proof read" . . . .?


Ask Ausp. He's got sources.


----------



## mikel1

Maybe someone should tell the Coast Guard Island Packet is missing and there has been no contact . . . . . .


----------



## svHyLyte

Last Saturday evening (much) better half and I had supper with another couple who's company is/was a major supplier to Island Packet. I mentioned the rumor's concerning IP's demise that have been discussed/debated herein. Unfortunately, the husband confirmed their expectation that IP is/was done and that they would be "...out of luck.." as to their accounts payable although they had not yet been written off. Personally, while IP yachts are not my cupp'a tea, I believe the boats were very well built and of high quality and I think it a shame that the company will be lost, and particularly so loss for the skilled workers and craftsmen/women that built the boats. I suppose the same can be said for many of the other yacht builders as well and it is a sad state of affairs...

FWIW...


----------



## olson34

svHyLyte said:


> Last Saturday evening (much) better half and I had supper with another couple who's company is/was a major supplier to Island Packet. I mentioned the rumor's concerning IP's demise that have been discussed/debated herein. Unfortunately, the husband confirmed their expectation that IP is/was done and that they would be "...out of luck.." as to their accounts payable although they had not yet been written off. Personally, while IP yachts are not my cupp'a tea, I believe the boats were very well built and of high quality and I think it a shame that the company will be lost, and particularly so loss for the skilled workers and craftsmen/women that built the boats. I suppose the same can be said for many of the other yacht builders as well and it is a sad state of affairs...
> 
> FWIW...


Some portions of your post seem to have been infected by a rant virus.
And that's sad. Not like your usual helpful commentary, so it must be mal-ware - has the admin been notified?


Loren


----------



## colemj

So IP's problems only started 8 years ago and are solely due to the perceived political leanings of the particular executive branch administration during this time, but not the legislative nor judicial? 

Sounds about right to me. It's also the reason Catalina and Beneteau are doing so poorly in the US. Oh, wait....

Mark


----------



## MarcStAug

olson34 said:


> Some portions of your post seem to have been infected by a rant virus.
> And that's sad. Not like your usual helpful commentary, so it must be mal-ware - has the admin been notified?
> 
> 
> Loren


Uh oh. Looks like your post must have been infected by the snark virus. :wink :wink :wink


----------



## Jeff_H

C'mom folks...Let's keep it on topic (or take it to O.T. Politics, Religion, War and Government)


----------



## SVAuspicious

My last email was not responded to, and attempts to reach the people I know at IP are not being picked up.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

smackdaddy said:


> Ask Ausp. He's got sources.


Your schadenfreude at the demise of a well-respected company, likely taking with it down the lifelihoods of many skilled craftsmen and -women is inappropriate.


----------



## SVAuspicious

Here is the latest that I have. My best source called me this afternoon (US ET). He was in a meeting this morning. 

I think I have figured out a few things covered by the NDA that management is under. I'm not telling anyone since I don't want to feed rumors that might mess things up. I ran some things past my friend and he said all are true and he was allowed to say they are true.


Good news is coming.

The lawyers are running up their billable hours.

Construction continues on boats that have been ordered (IP, Blue Jacket, and Seaward) and for inventory. 

Employees continue working.

Invoices for parts and supplies are being paid on time.

The press release was written and submitted for approval. One word was changed. Release has not yet been authorized.

Bob Johnson doesn't like lawyers very much.


We did not talk about why the phones have been down so long. I forgot to ask. If it were me and what I know and what I think I know are all true I would probably unplug the phones also (<- warped sense of humor).

In my opinion, the best thing for the parties to do is herd the lawyers into a room and not let them out (no food, no water, no bathrooms) until all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed.

I may be naive and easily led astray. That is a possibility. SailNetters can come to their own conclusions based on my track record here. I believe that IPY is on a responsible course of action that at the end of the day is in the interests of the company and of its customers, past present and future.


----------



## colemj

I think lawyers can live off sucking blood for a long time. Also don't think they need restrooms because they always seem full of sh** to me.

So locking them up could still be ages before hearing anything...

Mark


----------



## SVAuspicious

colemj said:


> So locking them up could still be ages before hearing anything...


Okay - no food, no water, no alcohol, no bathrooms, no Internet, no email, no TV, no cell phones, ....


----------



## Erindipity

SVAuspicious said:


> ...
> In my opinion, the best thing for the parties to do is herd the lawyers into a room and not let them out (no food, no water, no bathrooms) until all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed...


This Tradition actually has a long history; it started with the choosing of Popes...

Black smoke from a chimney means no decision has been made yet again, and White smoke means the Meeting has ended successfully.
Greasy Blue smoke means that there is one less Lawyer. Yes, they really do eat their own.

¬Erindipity


----------



## uncle stinky bob

Phone goes straight to busy now, every time. Called a dealer out here in Seattle, got a big run around and told "someone" would call me back if they found a "back door" phone number for I.P. make of it what you will. I do hope that the folks that worked at I.P.are still putting bread on their tables. If they pull it out of this nose dive, I wonder if a name change will be the first order of business?


----------



## boatpoker

JimMcGee said:


> Because we all live in a boating community we forget how small our numbers are.
> 
> Only 17% of US households own boats, which includes power, sail, PWC, canoes, kayaks and inflatables.
> 
> Of that 17%, only 3.7% own sailboats.
> 
> That's a SMALL number in the grand scheme of things. It means builders need to be VERY focused on what their customers want. It's a very difficult business.
> 
> The numbers come from this USCG report on page 41


What percentage of US households own ferrari's ?


----------



## JimMcGee

boatpoker said:


> What percentage of US households own ferrari's ?


That's a good example of a VERY focused niche product -- and a company that hasn't always been profitable.

High end niche car companies are all owned by big mainstream players with deep pockets who can see them through tough economic times.

- Fiat owns Ferrari and Maserati
- BMW owns Rolls
- Tata owns Jag and Land Rover
- Volkswagen owns Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini and Porsche

There's been some consolidation in the sailboat business but it's a different game.


----------



## Shockwave

The sailboat market is very small, many builders have gone to building a powerboat line to survive. Some have essentially abandoned sail to pursue power. Sabre, Hinckley, S2 became Tiara/Pursuit,,,,, Beneteau is moving more heavily into power. Building production sailboats is a very tough business.


----------



## olson34

Jeff_H said:


> C'mom folks...Let's keep it on topic (or take it to O.T. Politics, Religion, War and Government)


So if I remove my whole"objectionable" post, do all echoes of it from other downstream post quotes go away also? Interesting!

(I really have no idea how this works on your site. I so rarely used my so-called admin 'powers' on the EY site that I hardly know what they are... )


Loren


----------



## smackdaddy

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Your schadenfreude at the demise of a well-respected company, likely taking with it down the lifelihoods of many skilled craftsmen and -women is inappropriate.


Oh, harden up cupcake. My sarcasm was not directed at IP, but the guy who was stepping in here as their spokesman.


----------



## Erindipity

JimMcGee said:


> ...
> - Fiat owns Ferrari and Maserati
> ...
> There's been some consolidation in the sailboat business but it's a different game.


FCA, (FIAT-Chrysler Automobiles), still owns Maserati; Ferrari was spun off a few months back and trades on the NYSE as "RACE".
The Ferrari and Agnelli Families between them own ~35% of the Company outright, and control just over 50% of the voting Shares.
Ferrari is independent again. 
Maserati is questionable; Ferrari supplied them Engineering as well as Engines; FCA has stated that they wish to align Maserati with Alfa Romeo in the future, and they may possibly merge the brands. (Makes sense: There are all these new Alfa Romeo dealerships popping up in the US...)

Beneteau is an interesting example of Consolidation- they now do Sail, Power, and... Real Estate and Vacation Homes? There is a Trend there, but I don't see Beneteau getting into the Exotic Vacation Car Market anytime soon. 
(I did once own a Citroen SM, the one with the Maserati V6 Engine, with the dodgy Timing Chains. Lovely car, and for me, very reliable. The _Best_ front seats of any car that I've ever owned. But Italian/French marriages rarely go well... and that union nearly killed both companies.)
Consolidation isn't just about merging Brands, it's about expanding markets. What Market does Island Packet appeal to? If say Catalina was just _given_ Island Packet, lock, stock, and moldy barrel, would they continue on?

I don't see Island Packet viable as an independent company either; even Wikipedia has written them off. And even among Sailing Nuts, they don't have the cachet of a Ferrari, which is bad, since new ones commanded Ferrari prices.

But just as "Island Packet" grew out of the remains of the humble "Bombay Express", somebody may buy the molds and the "IP" of IP, and make something New again. Something New enough that People will want enough, to pay the price, once again.

It's happened before...

¬Erindipity


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Shockwave said:


> The sailboat market is very small, many builders have gone to building a powerboat line to survive. Some have essentially abandoned sail to pursue power. Sabre, Hinckley, S2 became Tiara/Pursuit,,,,, Beneteau is moving more heavily into power. Building production sailboats is a very tough business.


Fuel prices have remained low even though we have been told since the 1970s that oil is about to run out. we finally have learned the fear mongering is BS.

Even at $100 per barrel the fuel price is not that high for what you get.

Except for sailing as the sport of racing, there's little reason to own a sail boat to do what many actually do in the Western World. Most don't cross oceans but bob about Sydney Harbour, et al...
It can be done just as nicely/more easily a motor boat incl more space, less rigging, less learning, less fragile bits up a fragile mast.

...and more people with more assets to afford the ever decreasing fuel costs.

Mark


----------



## Shockwave

That's very true Mark.


----------



## Donna_F

Rather than endless speculation and phone calls, why not just wait? Go sailing. Celebrate spring. Varnish something. Hug your spouse, dog, child, whatever/whomever you hug.

All this thread seems to be doing is getting people riled up and it isn't turning the IP phones on any faster no matter how much inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## outbound

There is one good thing about IP and a select few ( getting fewer) brands. You could beat the crap out of them, sail them long and hard, comfortably live on them for years and years but at the end if maintained they be in good shape and ready to go another round. 
Smackie talks of disposable boats. They were (?are) not disposable boats. 
Main problem for them is even c/w low aspect fins or bulbed fins seen on their competition their sailing performance is not a selling point. So even looking at the very small number of new sailboats over >30' sold and then the even smaller number of dedicated long distance cruising boats >40' you're dealing with a small market. Unlike people buying a 40-60' French boat for their first boat the IP market is looking at a segment of buyers who have been sailing for years. Those folks know about HR, Hylas, Passport, Outbound and Oyster. IP loses out.
Their best move would be to take their very skilled crew and reorganize. Go to someone like Robert Perry or German Frers and have them design a BWB. Perhaps a grp version of the cf cutter.

My 2cents


----------



## SVAuspicious

uncle stinky bob said:


> Called a dealer out here in Seattle, got a big run around and told "someone" would call me back if they found a "back door" phone number for I.P. make of it what you will.


Only two possibilities: they don't sell many IPs and don't have cell phone numbers into the factory or they are a real partner to IP and know more than they can or will share with someone they don't know that calls on the phone.



Donna_F said:


> Rather than endless speculation and phone calls, why not just wait? Go sailing. Celebrate spring. Varnish something. Hug your spouse, dog, child, whatever/whomever you hug.


(--o--)



outbound said:


> ... Those folks know about HR, Hylas, Passport, Outbound and Oyster. IP loses out. ...


I like IPs. I really do. I almost bought one, but I didn't. I chose something else that was a better fit for me. There are still a lot of people for whom an IP is a near perfect fit. I think Bob has done a great job of defining a market (a niche within a niche if you will) and developing owner loyalty that borders on rabid. There are a lot of gentle cruising anchorages that are overwhelmed with IPs.

I'm obviously a German Frers fan but good designers including Bob Perry and Bob Johnson have their own followings, and I respect those designers for doing what they are so clearly good at.


----------



## aa3jy

Cabo Rico was in a similar situation some years back..just closed there doors..no word from the owner.. 
Vessels in partial completion are still on the factory floor.
So yes..I'd be nervous if there was a substantial deposit down on a new IP


----------



## JimMcGee

Donna_F said:


> Rather than endless speculation and phone calls, why not just wait? Go sailing. Celebrate spring. Varnish something. Hug your spouse, dog, child, whatever/whomever you hug.
> 
> All this thread seems to be doing is getting people riled up and it isn't turning the IP phones on any faster no matter how much inquiring minds want to know.


Umm, Donna you have visited SailNet before right? :laugher


----------



## outbound

Dave agree with you they have a following and a good reason for that following. They make a fine boat. Still they need numbers to keep the doors open. Earlier it was said given its such a good boat they last decades so buyers looking for a traditional IP look at the used market as well. 
Point I was trying to make related to maintaining a flow of new boats. I specifically mentioned the Perry cutter because it was a full keel boat was would appear to circumvent the downfall of IP in this niche of a niche market. That being performance.


----------



## smackdaddy

outbound said:


> Smackie talks of disposable boats. They were (?are) not disposable boats.


So what's better? A disposable boat or a disposable brand?


----------



## Lazerbrains

smackdaddy said:


> So what's better? A disposable boat or a disposable brand?


Depends on if you are at sea or at your slip. :wink


----------



## Donna_F

JimMcGee said:


> Umm, Donna you have visited SailNet before right? :laugher


Consider that a gentle nudge before I let loose the dragon.


----------



## JimMcGee

Donna_F said:


> Consider that a gentle nudge before I let loose the dragon.


Aww, I don't know the little guy looks kinda cute.

Now back to our regularly scheduled non-fact based speculations


----------



## smackdaddy

Lazerbrains said:


> Depends on if you are at sea or at your slip. :wink


Actually, not really. We're not talking suitability, we're talking longevity. The "disposable boats" are perfectly fit for purpose. The issue is, if you want to make boats that you'll still be competing against in 40 years, you're not going to have a business. It's that simple. We've seen it over and over again.

The market is clearly proving that "lighter built" (within a pretty narrow definition of "lighter") and less expensive with more modern features is what sells. Traditional, "generational" boats are dying left and right.

It is what it is.


----------



## uncle stinky bob

I spoke with a west coast I.P. dealer today. Very nice folks there I must add! All that they know is that I.P. is gone and they only know that by their own research as I.P. never told them anything either, just stopped answering the phone, including dealers number. They even had a friend drive by the I.P. shipyard, nobody there, with a chainlink fence and no trespass signs. This dealership is not happy. They had to sell a 2014 Blue Jacket this year at cost just to move it out of inventor. If anybody is looking at buying a new I.P. just keep in mind you won't have factory/builder support. Price should reflect this. Really to bad, I feel for owner/builder and all employee's and family's.


----------



## uncle stinky bob

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, not really. We're not talking suitability, we're talking longevity. The "disposable boats" are perfectly fit for purpose. The issue is, if you want to make boats that you'll still be competing against in 40 years, you're not going to have a business. It's that simple. We've seen it over and over again.
> 
> The market is clearly proving that "lighter built" (within a pretty narrow definition of "lighter") and less expensive with more modern features is what sells. Traditional, "generational" boats are dying left and right.
> 
> It is what it is.


Smack hits a homer.
Thit is precisely what the I.P. dealer said today during our conversation. 
Also told by same dealer, Entertaining friend's aboard in comfort, not quality built sailing vessels is what hot today.


----------



## xort

uncle stinky bob said:


> I spoke with a west coast I.P. dealer today. Very nice folks there I must add! All that they know is that I.P. is gone and they only know that by their own research as I.P. never told them anything either, just stopped answering the phone, including dealers number. They even had a friend drive by the I.P. shipyard, nobody there, with a chainlink fence and no trespass signs.


But dave says they are open, building boats and paying bills.


----------



## eherlihy

My bet is that the IP molds end up at Caliber Yachts.


----------



## aa3jy

xort said:


> But dave says they are open, building boats and paying bills.


Maybe because there is a dealer-builder relationship..

http://www.sjyachts.com/sj-about.html


----------



## smackdaddy

aa3jy said:


> Maybe because there is a dealer-builder relationship..
> 
> About S & J Yachts|Brokers for Fine Yachts: Annapolis, Rock Hall, MD, Deltaville, VA


Oh dear.


----------



## robert sailor

Well I too agree with Smack, the last thing you want to be doing is competing with the boat you built 3 years ago. That said there is a market for non disposable boats but they to must be constantly revising and improving designs. It is a builders job to create products that are very desirable but are not available in the used market.


----------



## Faster

I think the reality is that today's builders ARE competing with boats they previously built... and for those who are long running builders not just a few years old. While used boat prices - esp older ones - are falling (alarmingly for we owners) the great number of 90s and early 2000s boats out there and available must be affecting the potential for a new boat buyer.. often 10s of $Ks worth of accessories included in used boats, good selection.. some of them arguably 'better' than the new offerings.

But it goes further back.. how many '60s and '70s cars are still on the road, in good shape and fetching any kind of price at all? (collectors excluded!).. how many '60s and '70s boats??


----------



## uncle stinky bob

Faster said:


> I think the reality is that today's builders ARE competing with boats they previously built... and for those who are long running builders not just a few years old. While used boat prices - esp older ones - are falling (alarmingly for we owners) the great number of 90s and early 2000s boats out there and available must be affecting the potential for a new boat buyer.. often 10s of $Ks worth of accessories included in used boats, good selection.. some of them arguably 'better' than the new offerings.
> 
> But it goes further back.. how many '60s and '70s cars are still on the road, in good shape and fetching any kind of price at all? (collectors excluded!).. how many '60s and '70s boats??


much like the light bulb that would last 500 years we heard about 30 years ago, why would a light bulb builder make a bulb that puts him out of business ? They don't.


----------



## capecodda

Faster said:


> I think the reality is that today's builders ARE competing with boats they previously built... and for those who are long running builders not just a few years old. While used boat prices - esp older ones - are falling (alarmingly for we owners) the great number of 90s and early 2000s boats out there and available must be affecting the potential for a new boat buyer.. often 10s of $Ks worth of accessories included in used boats, good selection.. some of them arguably 'better' than the new offerings.
> 
> But it goes further back.. how many '60s and '70s cars are still on the road, in good shape and fetching any kind of price at all? (collectors excluded!).. how many '60s and '70s boats??


Faster reminded me of this:


----------



## colemj

robert sailor said:


> Well I too agree with Smack.


Do you realise you said that out loud?

Mark


----------



## robert sailor

Sounds funny huh.Every now and then the fellow gets it right, what can I say?


----------



## Hudsonian

New boats are coming out all the time . It would nice to focus them and the opportunity for growth in the industry. I'm saddened by the loss employment of craftmen but don't rue the loss of the outdated design, which promoted the death spiral perception of sailing as a sport exclusively for rich, old farts.


----------



## robert sailor

I hear ya but from where I sit 90% of the sailors are old rich farts


----------



## boatpoker

I feel for anyone who loses their job but if you don't adjust to the realities of the market .... you are gone.


----------



## night0wl

eherlihy said:


> My bet is that the IP molds end up at Caliber Yachts.


Uh, Calibers been gone for a few years now...

I used to think they were around too because their site is up. But again, no one answers their phone. I also saw on Mahina Expeditions site of suitable bluewater cruisers, Caliber is listed as out of business. Lastly, go look at them in Google Maps - their location is states as "permanently closed". Any given one of those and I would have said they're still kicking...but all three?


----------



## Don L

I don't really understand all the debate as it is pretty simple. If you build a boat of a design and certain quality at a price level that not enough people are willing to pay; your business will fail. The most impressive thing about IP is that it took this long for consumers to finally get to the point where there weren't enough old buyers around to overpay for a 1980s boat design.


----------



## SVAuspicious

xort said:


> But dave says they are open, building boats and paying bills.


Isn't there anyone on SN near Tampa-St Pete who can drive past and see if what I am told on the phone is true? Pictures please!

There is an SSCA Cruising Station down there, and a couple of AGLCA Harbor Hosts. I'll reach out and ask for some on-the-ground information.



aa3jy said:


> Maybe because there is a dealer-builder relationship..
> 
> About S & J Yachts|Brokers for Fine Yachts: Annapolis, Rock Hall, MD, Deltaville, VA


My relationship with IP goes back to 2004, and with the factory staff to 2005. My brief association with S&J Yachts (now over) is independent of my relationship with IP as it is independent of my relationship with other builders and a number of designers.

That my picture is still on S&J's website is indicative of the difference in priorities that led to parting ways.


----------



## eherlihy

night0wl said:


> Uh, Calibers been gone for a few years now...
> 
> I used to think they were around too because their site is up. But again, no one answers their phone. I also saw on Mahina Expeditions site of suitable bluewater cruisers, Caliber is listed as out of business. Lastly, go look at them in Google Maps - their location is states as "permanently closed". Any given one of those and I would have said they're still kicking...but all three?


... then Precision? (I'm running out of builders on the Florida west coast!)


----------



## mikel1

.. . . . . . meanwhile, back at the law firm, the finest highly paid legal minds are hard at work trying to get the wording just right for for that all important press release! Stay tuned . . .film at 11:00 . . . . .


----------



## uncle stinky bob

mikel1 said:


> .. . . . . . meanwhile, back at the law firm, the finest highly paid legal minds are hard at work trying to get the wording just right for for that all important press release! Stay tuned . . .film at 11:00 . . . . .


AM? PM? lol


----------



## eherlihy

If I don't have to move a boat on Tuesday (and I probably won't), I'll take a motorcycle ride up to Clearwater, and take some pictures of both IP and Caliber.


----------



## uncle stinky bob

xort said:


> But dave says they are open, building boats and paying bills.


Dave's not here man. Cheech&Chong

either is I.P. Stinky


----------



## Shockwave

Don0190 said:


> I don't really understand all the debate as it is pretty simple. If you build a boat of a design and certain quality at a price level that not enough people are willing to pay; your business will fail. The most impressive thing about IP is that it took this long for consumers to finally get to the point where there weren't enough old buyers around to overpay for a 1980s boat design.


You mean bankrupt companies like Hunter? Or Jeaneau? Or Wauquiez? Or McGreggor? Or C&C? Or Dufour? Or Najad? Or Ericson? Or Cal?....

Building sailboat is a very difficult business, high capital costs, high labor costs, a fickle market that's overly exposed to economic contractions... look at Beneteau's financials, if it weren't for the support of the French government it would probably be gone too.


----------



## svHyLyte

Don0190 said:


> I don't really understand all the debate as it is pretty simple. If you build a boat of a design and certain quality at a price level that not enough people are willing to pay; your business will fail. The most impressive thing about IP is that it took this long for consumers to finally get to the point where there weren't enough old buyers around to overpay for a 1980s boat design.


Don--

I do not disagree that the pool of prospective buyers for a new yacht as costly as the Island Packets were/are is quite shallow. Unfortunately for IP, they built a yacht of such quality/endurance that new boats were, in fact, competing with their earlier sisterships that were/are nearly indistinguishable from the new boats but priced more affordably which further reduced that pool. Even today there is a dealer/broker in Bradenton Florida with a half dozen or more IP's offered for sale that, with the exception of some weathering of the canvas and non-standard 3rd party equipment on deck, one would think were new. Even tho' used, these offerings are quite costly (IMHO), tho' not in comparison with a "new" IP, and frankly, for 90%+ of prospective buyers, more boat than necessary for their expected use.

Many folks here-about decry "production boat builders" for building boats that they deem unsuitable for "blue water" (tho' few boats ever see/sail in blue water). IP was a "blue water" boat builder and look where it got them.

FWIW...


----------



## hpeer

It's hardly just boats and light bulbs. Our whole economy is based on consumption. "Planned obsolecense" is an alive and well concept.

Actually building something well constructed and durable is bad for the economy as mainstream economist see it.

All pretty surreal and weird to me!


----------



## Don L

There are other "production" boat builders that have been around 30+ years and are still selling new boats, AND their larger cruising type boats are still around sailing just fine. The problem with IP isn't that their new boats completed with their old boats any more than any other builders. It is that they build a boat that for the price not enough people whated, PERIOD. Only on internet forums do people say they what a 30 year old boat design, yet even they still aren't willing or able to buy one.

I have nothing against IP. But if I had the money to spend on a brand new boat I would never get an IP.


----------



## robert sailor

I think IP does compete with their used boats. We see dozens of IP boats throughout the Caribbean so someone has been buying them in reasonable quantity and their obviously is a market for these boats but the market is probably for used IP. This is what happens when you continue to build older designs for too long and whether it's new homes or new boats its still the same. People like change and expect it so the builders that are constantly bringing new fresh designs to the market at a price the masses can afford will be the winners.


----------



## aa3jy

robert sailor said:


> I think IP does compete with their used boats. We see dozens of IP boats throughout the Caribbean so someone has been buying them in reasonable quantity...


They are very popular with the charter trade and keel boat sailing schools..


----------



## SVAuspicious

I trust my source. Some of y'all don't, or don't trust me, which is fine. 

I've written to two AGLCA Harbor Hosts and an SSCA Cruising Station in the area of IPY asking for a working hour drive by and pictures on a weekday.


----------



## night0wl

eherlihy said:


> ... then Precision? (I'm running out of builders on the Florida west coast!)


Catalina builds in Largo too.


----------



## boatpoker

SVAuspicious said:


> I've written to two AGLCA Harbor Hosts and an SSCA Cruising Station in the area of IPY asking for a working hour drive by and pictures on a weekday.


Why ?


----------



## mitiempo

If Island Packet is still in business in any way they are digging their grave by not making an announcement.


----------



## Minnewaska

mitiempo said:


> If Island Packet is still in business in any way they are digging their grave by not making an announcement.


This is the sad point. It is devastating to their brand.

IPY does have a following, there is no way to deny that. It may be too small to drive the revenue needed to maintain the kind of enormous capital investment necessary to keep a factory operating. However, they are not undesirable outright, as some are trying to suggest. Blue Jacket may have been too late to the game.

SVA has credibility in my book. From afar, it surely looks bad for IPY. But, I'm waiting to see the pics that he asked for.


----------



## newt

If anyone is still working for IPY could they please stand up? Mr. Johnson? (looks around, the bar is still filled with it's usual characters, nobody is moving) Well OK then, lets get back to Spring.


----------



## MedSailor

eherlihy said:


> My bet is that the IP molds end up at Caliber Yachts.


It was the club booms that did them both in...


----------



## Powerdude

hpeer said:


> It's hardly just boats and light bulbs. Our whole economy is based on consumption. "Planned obsolecense" is an alive and well concept.
> 
> Actually building something well constructed and durable is bad for the economy as mainstream economist see it.
> 
> All pretty surreal and weird to me!


Not criticizing, I think we're on the same page....but....

If you are paraphrasing Paul Krugman, the guy is the worst example of a free money Keynesian economics.

"Planned obsolescence" is essentially the same thing as the "broken window fallacy" promoted by the likes of Krugman. Briefly, if a kid throws a rock and breaks a window of a shop, that is considered "good for the economy", because the window gets fixed and money gets spent.

However, what that doesn't take into account that the money spent on fixing the broken window could have been put to better economic uses.

Same thing for planned obsolescence. The money that would be spend replacing a poorly made product could be put to better uses in the economy.

Anyway, bummer if IP goes out of business. Hopefully they will not.


----------



## ScottUK

Powerdude said:


> However, what that doesn't take into account that the money spent on fixing the broken window could have been put to better economic uses.


The same argument can be applied to the purchase of pleasure craft.


----------



## boatpoker

ScottUK said:


> The same argument can be applied to the purchase of pleasure craft.


or anything else you don't like


----------



## Minnewaska

Cars last much longer than they ever did when I was a kid. Planned obsolescence is a myth. I believe production boats are simply made for what 99% of consumers actually do with them. They sail them infrequently and/or put them on the hard for the winter. If you want to be harder on them, you just beef them up a bit and have at it.


----------



## outbound

Minnie there's another thread about one of Bob's boats doing the clock in really stinky weather and one about sailing in very unpleasant 40kts. Most would believe Bob's and other NAs boats of that heritage or current stick built boats such as IPY will stand up to that use. Most would believe many current one off dedicated ocean boats can as well as materials, design and construction have continued to improve. So the capability of building ever stronger boats exists.
Believe the fallacy is in the belief that pop up weather doesn't occur coastally and that weather modeling is infallible. A deceased friend of many who post here gently and with grace pointed out that the denial of these facts leads to boats not optimized to deal with this reality.
Not an IPY fan but their boats were clearly designed to be safely sailed in weather and to endure. I believe that's the way it should be.


----------



## robert sailor

Well written


----------



## eherlihy

Minnewaska said:


> Planned obsolescence is a myth.


I take it that you don't have an iPhone/iPad with the integrated (not-replaceable) battery.


----------



## RobGallagher

eherlihy said:


> I take it that you don't have an iPhone/iPad with the integrated (not-replaceable) battery.


Why would one say that?

No, you can't pop off the back cover and put in a spare in 30 seconds like some of the competitors but...

However, It takes about 5 minutes to replace an iPhone or iPad battery if one has the proper screwdriver. It's really not that hard at all. If you can jibe a monohull, or wire in a new VHF you can change an apple battery.


----------



## blt2ski

Planned obsolescence!?!?!?!? In a boat with some parts being warranted for upwards of 15 years?!?!?! granted only the hull, but still......having a hard time with this personally. IP only has a 10 year warranty, vs 15 IIRC for Jeanneau.....A jeanneau is half the cost too!

Biggest issue as I noted before, and others have too. They are competing with there own 20-30 yr old designs, which have not changed much since the beginning. Catalina was almost in this grave, then they started to change redesign some of there boats. Hunter does this every 5-7 years as do many of the other builders. Car manufactures are having to do the same too. 

That is not to say that some of the newer things will not look or feel outdated etc......I still personally like the body style of the 88-2000 GM pickups over the most recent ones.....fortunately my 2000 c2500 is still doing well........But have to admit, the newest versions have some things mine does not, that would be nice to have..........Same with my 85 Jeanneau that the newest ones have vs mine. Other parts of the newest, like lower SA/Disp ratio's I do not like...........

Marty


----------



## elliowb

Powerdude said:


> Not criticizing, I think we're on the same page....but....
> 
> If you are paraphrasing Paul Krugman, the guy is the worst example of a free money Keynesian economics.
> 
> "Planned obsolescence" is essentially the same thing as the "broken window fallacy" promoted by the likes of Krugman. Briefly, if a kid throws a rock and breaks a window of a shop, that is considered "good for the economy", because the window gets fixed and money gets spent.
> 
> However, what that doesn't take into account that the money spent on fixing the broken window could have been put to better economic uses.
> 
> Same thing for planned obsolescence. The money that would be spend replacing a poorly made product could be put to better uses in the economy.
> 
> Anyway, bummer if IP goes out of business. Hopefully they will not.


This thread has drifted a bit,... however, I can't let this one go without comment.

I think arguing over whether planned obsolescence is some evil plot or whether it's good or bad for the economy is missing the point. In my view the real point is that many consumers don't value, nor can even recognize durability as a feature of any product (be that a boat or house or car....). Nor does the average consumer adequately take account of 'lifetime' cost of a product.

The classic example of this is two refrigerators, one that is half the price of the other. The cheaper one uses much more electricity to run and does not preserve food as well, so the lifetime cost of the lower priced frig is much higher, even accounting for the time value of money. Most consumers choose the lower price refrigerator, falsely thinking that it's cheaper.

Bottom line is that if you can't see it, the average consumer will not value it. Economically speaking is this suboptimal? Yes. Does that mean that there are bargains out there for those of us that do look for durability and lifetime cost? Maybe, especially in the used boat market.


----------



## SVAuspicious

RobGallagher said:


> No, you can't pop off the back cover and put in a spare in 30 seconds like some of the competitors but...
> 
> However, It takes about 5 minutes to replace an iPhone or iPad battery if one has the proper screwdriver. It's really not that hard at all. If you can jibe a monohull, or wire in a new VHF you can change an apple battery.


Regardless beats the heck out of replacing the battery in a Raystar 120 GPS. *grin*

The button battery in most laptops is a nightmare.


----------



## Yamsailor

Hmm--that is very telling. Bob--doyou have idea which way the business as a whole is going in the short and medium term?



bobperry said:


> The Seattle dealer has had a Blue Jacket for sale for almost three years.
> 
> Sorry to see them go.I have not designed a new production boat since the Flying Tiger and that was about 7 years ago. All my work since has been custom boats.


----------



## newt

I think we are going the way of private aircraft. Just a few made, and a whole lot of 60-70 and 80's models hanging around. Maybe the next president will make us scrap them all and start over.


----------



## SVAuspicious

newt said:


> I think we are going the way of private aircraft. Just a few made, and a whole lot of 60-70 and 80's models hanging around. Maybe the next president will make us scrap them all and start over.


That didn't work well under Mr. Carter.


----------



## uncle stinky bob

SVAuspicious said:


> That didn't work well under Mr. Carter.


Did anything workout with the peanut farmer and the rest of us? lol


----------



## mstern

I decided to check and see if there was anything new on the IP Owner's web page. Not much, just that they hoped to make an announcement last week or this week.

IPYOA.com/Forum: Island Packet News coming in March (1/1)


----------



## uncle stinky bob

mstern said:


> I decided to check and see if there was anything new on the IP Owner's web page. Not much, just that they hoped to make an announcement last week or this week.
> 
> IPYOA.com/Forum: Island Packet News coming in March (1/1)


I've been checking there also, I sure wish someone in an official capacity from I.P. would say something. Good luck to all involved. Heard another rumor (see rumor) that there would be a company known merely as Blue Jacket come from this.


----------



## caberg

Wonder who is editing the Wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_Packet_Yachts



> IPY continues in operation as of 24 March 2016 with construction ongoing of boats on order and for inventory for Island Packet, Blue Jacket, and Seaward Yachts. Employees are working and being paid. [5] Suppliers are delivering materials and invoices are being paid. [6]


The footnotes cite to "Personal phone call between editor and staff."

Phew! Glad that this anonymous Wikipedia editor has cleared everything up!


----------



## aa3jy

At the very bottom ...
"Edited 5 days ago by davidskolnick"


----------



## miatapaul

uncle stinky bob said:


> I've been checking there also, I sure wish someone in an official capacity from I.P. would say something. Good luck to all involved. Heard another rumor (see rumor) that there would be a company known merely as Blue Jacket come from this.


I wonder if this will become the new Tartan that seems to change owners/names every couple of years. I don't think IP is trying to get out of warranty claims, but it is a long term liability, so often the new owner does not take on the liability of the existing warranties. But I believe jacket was involved in that whole mess back then as well.

Seems strange as IP would seem to have the better reputation and image, even if old school. I will say it seemed to be Ross more than jacket that was the cause of the fall, and almost demise of Tartan, using phrases like "internet terrorist" to describe there customers.


----------



## SVAuspicious

aa3jy said:


> At the very bottom ...
> "Edited 5 days ago by davidskolnick"


Yep. And I reported myself up the chain for review.

I'm also (last I asked) the only person to report myself on SN.


----------



## Faster

SVAuspicious said:


> .....
> 
> I'm also (last I asked) the only person to report myself on SN.


And more than once


----------



## uncle stinky bob

SVAuspicious said:


> I trust my source. Some of y'all don't, or don't trust me, which is fine.
> 
> I've written to two AGLCA Harbor Hosts and an SSCA Cruising Station in the area of IPY asking for a working hour drive by and pictures on a weekday.


Curious if you've heard from any of these folks? Any pictures or eyes on?


----------



## aa3jy

There seems to be a 'Trend'...

http://bigthink.com/learning-from-the-past/socrates-wouldnt-trust-the-web-should-we-trust-him


----------



## outbound

aa- very interesting link and thank you for it.

One notes on this site there's a new thread positing a navigational problem. It requires some understanding of basic math. Understanding trig and spherical trig gives you a different perception when you sit at your multi system display or tablet and plot a transit. Understanding basic weather motive forces gives you a different understanding when you look at gribs. In fact, last night and tonight Chris is giving a webinar exploring when you should not accept grib information in decisions on passages.

So you have a choice. You can cede your independence and intellectual growth by hitting the power switch, in putting what you want and accepting what the black box spits out remaining ignorant of the verocity of the output. Equally, demeaning of your experience can be showed by many life experiences e.g. Walking through the woods with a skilled hunter, or botanist, or biologist, or hydrologist or geologist. All see different things on that walk. All enhance your walk and future walks in different ways. But in order for that to occur you must take the step to labor to understand what they offer.

Know ocean sailors and long term cruisiers who view things differently. All they care is if it works. Only interested in ceding as much as possible so their thoughts, time and labor can be spent on other pursuits. 

Pays your money-take your choice.


----------



## uncle stinky bob

So still nothing from I.P.? Still nothing from secret sources that can't be named? Anybody hear anything? .......anybody?


----------



## SVAuspicious

uncle stinky bob said:


> Curious if you've heard from any of these folks? Any pictures or eyes on?





uncle stinky bob said:


> So still nothing from I.P.? Still nothing from secret sources that can't be named? Anybody hear anything? .......anybody?


I just got a text that confirms what I inferred. Apparently the real scenario is leaking (not from me and not from my source) and the PR should be released shortly. I'm on distribution and when I get it I'll post it here. NFI.


----------



## Yamsailor

What did you infer?



SVAuspicious said:


> I just got a text that confirms what I inferred. Apparently the real scenario is leaking (not from me and not from my source) and the PR should be released shortly. I'm on distribution and when I get it I'll post it here. NFI.


----------



## dvuyxx

This message will self-destruct in 10-9-8-7...


----------



## boatpoker

uncle stinky bob said:


> So still nothing from I.P.? Still nothing from secret sources that can't be named? Anybody hear anything? .......anybody?


Shhhhhh .... it's a secret.


----------



## caberg

I can't be the only one slightly perplexed by SVAuspicious's ambiguous devotion to IPY.


----------



## aa3jy

Yamsailor said:


> What did you infer?
> 
> Read the currently/last 'Edited' account of IPY Wikipedia..in particular to citations 3,4,5 and 6
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources


----------



## mikel1

Remember Nixon had " plumbers" in the White House to find the "leaks" . . . so who on this thread might be "deep throat"


----------



## SVAuspicious

Yamsailor said:


> What did you infer?


I've said before that I won't share what I think I know to avoid messing up ongoing efforts. There appear to be leaks in the industry. They didn't come from me and I believe they did not come from my sources at IPY. I have been told I am on direct distribution for the public release. I think that is a recognition of my honoring commitments.



caberg said:


> I can't be the only one slightly perplexed by SVAuspicious's ambiguous devotion to IPY.


Well let me clear up the ambiguity. In 2004 when I was boat shopping the then-new IP370 was on my short list. I developed a lot of relationships with members of the owner's association and with people at the factory. Even though I decided to buy a different boat I have maintained those relationships. There are a lot of good people and good sailors among the IP community just as there are among other communities including the broader boating community. Sure there are always bad apples. There are some here like everywhere else. Check my ignore list.

So when people started spreading rumors I knew to be untrue (or thought I knew and was pretty sure) I shared what I could. I would do the same for any organization in which I have professional friends.

As events have unfolded it appears that what I thought I knew is likely to be correct and the people I trusted to be straight with me have been. I don't care a whit if anyone on SN believes me. I certainly don't care what any of the few people on my ignore list think (obviously not you caberg - you just asked the question that tipped me over the edge).

My intent has been and continues to be to share as much as I can within the bounds of the confidences that have been shared with me. If I don't respect those confidences how can I ever expect anyone to trust me in future? Taunts and allegations regarding motivations and credibility really don't move anyone who really does know anything to want to share it. What kind of kindergarten sandbox is this anyway?

I've told SN that I have a good source and shared what I can. Believe me or not. I don't care. Personal aspersions just make clear the character of the speaker.


----------



## xort

It appears you are wrong about one thing...checking fellow 'nutters' ignore lists. Does not seem to be possible.


----------



## SVAuspicious

xort said:


> It appears you are wrong about one thing...checking fellow 'nutters' ignore lists. Does not seem to be possible.


You are correct. I was being rhetorical. I would post mine but I'm not sure what value there would be and I'd only have to report myself again.


----------



## seaner97

While I can't see your ignore list, I'd be willing to bet the patron saint of the ignore list is on it. FWIW, I've followed this with interest due to curiosity and a couple acquaintances that have IPs, and haven't doubted the veracity of the "they are working through it" stuff. I'm betting they're too busy w lawyers to worry about a few people not likely to buy their boats anyway kvetching about this on Sailnet.


----------



## uncle stinky bob

SVAuspicious said:


> I just got a text that confirms what I inferred. Apparently the real scenario is leaking (not from me and not from my source) and the PR should be released shortly. I'm on distribution and when I get it I'll post it here. NFI.


Very Cool, if that means what I hope it means? right? I hope they pullout of this and get back on track. Keeping folks working and putting bread on the table. Thanks for sharing your info SVA!


----------



## smackdaddy

seaner97 said:


> While I can't see your ignore list, I'd be willing to bet the patron saint of the ignore list is on it.


Oh please, no one ignores me. Not really. Sure, a couple of blowhards actually hit the button to pretend they're holier than thou, but then they just wait with bated breath in hopes that someone will quote me so they can read my incredible insight. I'm just that good.

Ignore is for pansies.

Hey, Ignore Pansy. IP.

See? I just continue to amaze.


----------



## aa3jy

It's Official! a certain secret source has come forward and announced that IPY has been sold too...and let the drums roll:

http://www.sinoeaglegroup.com/manufacturing/yacht-boat-manufacturer


----------



## chris95040

aa3jy said:


> It's Official! a certain secret source has come forward and announced that IPY has been sold too...and let the drums roll:
> 
> Yacht Manufacturing | Sino Eagle Group


Oh man. Those motor-cats on the homepage have got to be the dorkiest looking boats I've ever seen.


----------



## SVAuspicious

aa3jy said:


> It's Official! a certain secret source has come forward and announced that IPY has been sold too...and let the drums roll:
> 
> Yacht Manufacturing | Sino Eagle Group


Doesn't work. Big database query errors and nothing relevant. What did you see there before the website broke?



seaner97 said:


> While I can't see your ignore list, I'd be willing to bet the patron saint of the ignore list is on it. FWIW, I've followed this with interest due to curiosity and a couple acquaintances that have IPs, and haven't doubted the veracity of the "they are working through it" stuff. I'm betting they're too busy w lawyers to worry about a few people not likely to buy their boats anyway kvetching about this on Sailnet.


I would say that any manufacturer cares what people say about their brand. Their real customers run searches on Google and the responses show up. Unfortunately that means having to deal with explaining the forum ecosystem and that some posts are from people who don't know what they are talking about. That can be inconvenient.

That isn't to say that everything needs to be daffodils and butterflies. Well-grounded discussions between credible contributors who differ on substance is good and helps everyone.

Regarding the ignore list it would be interesting to be able to see at least the ignore count for any member. Who ignores me? Beats me. I can see who quotes me (unfortunately including people on my ignore list) but not who ignores me. Of greater value would be to see what users are ignored most often. It would be like academic peer review, a sort of "cut and paste sailor" vote count.

I don't think my ignore list is very big. Of nine, six have been permanently banned or drifted off on their own. The ignore list is a service of SN (and other fora) to help keep things civil.

Some SNers have questions. Some have answers. Some have some of both. Those are characteristics of a healthy community. Posters who make things up, cut and paste from sources they don't understand and apply out of context, and make disagreements personal are a virus. Posters who look at their post and ask themselves "how will this help" make the community better. Those who gleefully think "this will be fun!" and punch Submit are part of the problem.


----------



## uncle stinky bob

I don't have anyone here on ignore. Wish I could say the say about C&S forum. 3 and counting over there. LOL as far as I.P.? the proof is in the pudding, no press release, phone's still not being answered, dealerships left in the dark. Those are facts! anything beyond that is pure conjecture and valueless.


----------



## jephotog

aa3jy said:


> It's Official! a certain secret source has come forward and announced that IPY has been sold too...and let the drums roll:
> 
> Yacht Manufacturing | Sino Eagle Group


A few years back it was the Malaysians buying out our bankrupted companies, now it's the Chinese. I'm glad to see IPY's will still be around, but now that they will probably be made in China, the brand will lose some of it's appeal.


----------



## Hudsonian

A quick search found this Sino-Eagle boat Aquila RP 45 Boat Review: Aquila RP45 - Sail Magazine and "Sino Eagle Group's yacht building projects includes a partnership project with Robertson & Caine renowned catamaran yacht builders to manufacture Leopard 38 sailing catamarans and Leopard 37 power catamarans which were placed into the global charter fleets of The Moorings and Sunsail yacht charter companies."


----------



## Don L

Far as I'm concerned until I see a real news release, people are just making **** up.


----------



## smackdaddy

Hudsonian said:


> A quick search found this Sino-Eagle boat Aquila RP 45 Boat Review: Aquila RP45 - Sail Magazine and "Sino Eagle Group's yacht building projects includes a partnership project with Robertson & Caine renowned catamaran yacht builders to manufacture Leopard 38 sailing catamarans and Leopard 37 power catamarans which were placed into the global charter fleets of The Moorings and Sunsail yacht charter companies."


Any boat that can sail through chocolate pudding is impressive.


----------



## svHyLyte

smackdaddy said:


> ...
> 
> As for IP, if the above SinoEagle thing is true, this was the disaster people thought it was in the beginning of the thread - despite your assurances. IP is dead and gone to China. R-IP.


Careful, careful Smackie--your beginning to sound a bit Trumpish. FYI, Chinese industry is buying everything in sight a a means of getting capital out of China. If they keep IP alive in the US, at least some will benefit, if none other than the employees, eh?

As for the tit-for-tat with SVAuspicious, isn't that a bit silly?


----------



## seaner97

SVAuspicious said:


> Doesn't work. Big database query errors and nothing relevant. What did you see there before the website broke?
> 
> I would say that any manufacturer cares what people say about their brand. Their real customers run searches on Google and the responses show up. Unfortunately that means having to deal with explaining the forum ecosystem and that some posts are from people who don't know what they are talking about. That can be inconvenient.
> 
> That isn't to say that everything needs to be daffodils and butterflies. Well-grounded discussions between credible contributors who differ on substance is good and helps everyone.
> 
> Regarding the ignore list it would be interesting to be able to see at least the ignore count for any member. Who ignores me? Beats me. I can see who quotes me (unfortunately including people on my ignore list) but not who ignores me. Of greater value would be to see what users are ignored most often. It would be like academic peer review, a sort of "cut and paste sailor" vote count.
> 
> I don't think my ignore list is very big. Of nine, six have been permanently banned or drifted off on their own. The ignore list is a service of SN (and other fora) to help keep things civil.
> 
> Some SNers have questions. Some have answers. Some have some of both. Those are characteristics of a healthy community. Posters who make things up, cut and paste from sources they don't understand and apply out of context, and make disagreements personal are a virus. Posters who look at their post and ask themselves "how will this help" make the community better. Those who gleefully think "this will be fun!" and punch Submit are part of the problem.


Agree that would be interesting. I have no one on my ignore list (never even looked for it). I just do it the old fashioned way.


----------



## smackdaddy

seaner97 said:


> Agree that would be interesting. I have no one on my ignore list (never even looked for it). I just do it the old fashioned way.


That I respect.


----------



## xort

Nick Hake, owner of Seaward Yachts has bought Island Packet.


----------



## smackdaddy

xort said:


> Nick Hake, owner of Seaward Yachts has bought Island Packet.


Finally! Thanks Xort. I guess I can kind of see the fit...although these Seawards are actually fine looking yachts (though I don't like the rudders)...










At least Nick knows how to market.


----------



## Don L

xort said:


> Nick Hake, owner of Seaward Yachts has bought Island Packet.


I heard this yesterday, but still haven't see any news release. So ................


----------



## Caribbeachbum

xort said:


> Nick Hake, owner of Seaward Yachts has bought Island Packet.


If Nick has bought Island Packet, that's a good day for Island Packet. A good day for him, as well, I guess, since IP builds Seaward Yachts as well as their own. He is very much a top-shelf guy - smart, competent, and of unassailable integrity.

The company and employees could not do better.

--


----------



## joebeach

OK, it's April 1st - and after weeks of hearing nothing, today the news hits that not one, but TWO, separate companies have bought IP. Seems credible, right?


----------



## mstern

xort said:


> Nick Hake, owner of Seaward Yachts has bought Island Packet.


Not sure about the accuracy of this; Nick sold Hake Yachts to Ted Gelov several years ago. I spent a very nice half hour speaking with his (Ted's) daughter at the Newport show in September. I don't know what Nick's official status is at Hake/Seaward now; I've seen him at several boat shows on the Seawards since the sale, so he's obviously still involved. I wonder if it's Ted that has bought IP, or if Nick has jumped back into an ownership role. Hmmm.

I'll wait for the official word....

Love those Seawards.


----------



## miatapaul

There was already a connection between Seaward and IP, boats as they were supposed to be building boats together and joining forces for dealer network.

Seaward and Traditional Watercraft Join Forces to Build Boats | Cruising Compass

Island Packet To Build Seaward Sailboats | Cruising World


----------



## SVAuspicious

miatapaul said:


> There was already a connection between Seaward and IP, boats as they were supposed to be building boats together and joining forces for dealer network.
> 
> Seaward and Traditional Watercraft Join Forces to Build Boats | Cruising Compass
> 
> Island Packet To Build Seaward Sailboats | Cruising World


That is a year old, when Seaward contracted with TWI dba IPY to build boats for them.


----------



## Don L

is there a press release yet, or are we still making crap up?


----------



## mikel1

The lawyers are working on it . . . can you say billable hrs. .? Sure you can. . . .


----------



## Minnewaska

I have a sneaky suspicion there are creditors, landlords and/or suppliers that are past due (evidenced by the pic of the eviction notice) and their lawyers probably have a say in whatever outcome is being contemplated.


----------



## MedSailor

Don0190 said:


> is there a press release yet, or are we still making crap up?


Fear not, we'll still make crap up loooong after the release has gone to press. :devil


----------



## Don L

MedSailor said:


> Fear not, we'll still make crap up loooong after the release has gone to press. :devil


But that will be "informed" crap. Kind of like what the news reports each night :|


----------



## aa3jy

MedSailor said:


> Don0190 said:
> 
> 
> 
> is there a press release yet, or are we still making crap up?
> 
> 
> 
> Fear not, we'll still make crap up loooong after the release has gone to press.
Click to expand...

You all mean this 'edited' piece in Wikipedia on IPY..?

"In mid February 2016 phone lines were down. On 24 February 2016 an eviction notice [3] was posted on the doors of the factory. The factory reports that the eviction notice was on the door for 24 hours as part of a change in ownership of the property.[4] IPY continues in operation as of 24 March 2016 with construction ongoing of boats on order and for inventory for Island Packet, Blue Jacket, and Seaward Yachts. Employees are working and being paid. [5] Suppliers are delivering materials and invoices are being paid. [6]

Phone numbers continue to be out of service. Email is working. Company cell phones are working.

Company employees had shared that they were in tough shape during 2015 and for a period were reduced to a four day work week. Regular work weeks have been in place for many months (Mar 2016)."

...which has recently disappeared..


----------



## SVAuspicious

aa3jy said:


> ...which has recently disappeared..


Correct. Look at the history and an anonymous user (I'm not sure how that works on Wikipedia) edited it but the IP address goes to a cell phone in the Bahamas.


----------



## Omatako

Wow!

Over 27000 views, over 300 posts, for the apparent demise of a boat builder with a comparatively tiny market. Imagine the extent this thread if a real volume builder like Beneteau/Jenneau went belly up.


----------



## caberg

SVAuspicious said:


> Correct. Look at the history and an anonymous user (I'm not sure how that works on Wikipedia) edited it but the IP address goes to a cell phone in the Bahamas.


And yet you've been playing the editing game on wikipedia on behalf of IPY?

Sorry man, you seem like a really knowledgeable and helpful guy here on the Sailnet forum, but this whole thing is just weird.


----------



## Shockwave

Other then the creditors, who cares.....


----------



## chris95040

caberg said:


> Sorry man, you seem like a really knowledgeable and helpful guy here on the Sailnet forum, but this whole thing is just weird.


Yeah and yet still so... boring


----------



## Minnewaska

I'm interested to hear the eventual outcome. Perhaps because I've known a few IP groupies (who could deny they exist) and a buddy had a genuine interest in the Blue Jacket, if they were going to produce the 46. 

I don't think the volume of a manufacturer is the only indication of relevance. A niche market is what it is and they are tough to manage, but you don't have to be WalMart to be relevant.


----------



## SVAuspicious

caberg said:


> And yet you've been playing the editing game on wikipedia on behalf of IPY?


I prefer to think that I'm contributing to SailNet and Wikipedia on the basis of what I know as opposed to speculating. Apparently that offended someone in the Bahamas who edited out my contributions on Wikipedia. I suspect (which is speculation of course) that there are some here who wish they could do the same to some of my posts on SailNet.

When I made my Wikipedia contribution I reported _myself_ for review and my contribution was allowed to stand. Another individual editor took their own steps. That's part of what happens on Wikipedia. There were near continuous edits on small boat anchoring some years ago that were mind-boggling.

I do have friends at IPY and many friends and customers who own IPs. I have friends at Icom, KVH, Beneteau, HR, Hylas, Standard-Horizon, SCS, Navico, Raymarine, New England Ropes, and lots and lots of smaller businesses.

I don't speak for any of them without saying so. My posts on this thread are not on behalf of IPY; they are on behalf of truth. I have shared as much as I can; I would share more if I could without betraying confidences, even accidental ones. Unfortunately that isn't nearly as much fun as speculation, accusing others of malfeasance or mismanagement, conspiracy theorism, and beating people up.


----------



## MedSailor

SVAuspicious said:


> ... Unfortunately that isn't nearly as much fun as speculation, accusing others of malfeasance or mismanagement, conspiracy theorism, and beating people up.


Agreed! Now, on with the speculation and accusations, lets start speculating about the bahamas cell phone! I think (with absolutely NO basis WHATSOEVER) that this MUST be the owner of the offshore shell company that ran away with IP's money! :eek

Now it's on the internet (see paragraph above) therefore it must be true! :devil

/troll

Medsailor :wink


----------



## Don L

I heard the money bounced to Panama.


----------



## mstern

Don0190 said:


> I heard the money bounced to Panama.


and from there, to Iceland's Prime Minister, no doubt.


----------



## cb32863

SVAuspicious said:


> Correct. Look at the history and an anonymous user (I'm not sure how that works on Wikipedia) edited it but the IP address goes to a cell phone in the Bahamas.


I call BS, prove it. To a specific cell phone? This isn't TV or the movies. Every time you connect to an ISP you get a different IP. Nothing is hard coded to a device as far as IP's are concerned. Prove it is a cell phone. Locations are ify as well when it comes to IP's. Like I said, prove it, show me the trace.


----------



## Jeff_H

cb32863 said:


> I call BS, prove it. To a specific cell phone? This isn't TV or the movies. Every time you connect to an ISP you get a different IP. Nothing is hard coded to a device as far as IP's are concerned. Prove it is a cell phone. Locations are ify as well when it comes to IP's. Like I said, prove it, show me the trace.


Excuse me, with all due respect, that is completely out of line.

If you chose not to believe what is said there, that is your business. If you want to know why SVA thinks its a cellphone from the Bahamas, then that is a fair question. If you think that is a mistake, then it is reasonable to explain why you think so.

But your tone is completely out of line.


----------



## MedSailor

cb32863 said:


> ... show me the trace.


I agree with Jeff-H.

Tracing is EASY if you know how to do it. In fact, now, you don't even have to be half geek to do it.

go to Traceroute from around the world and click on the "traceroute" tab at the top. Input any IP and you'll feel like you're on a CSI TV show. Don't know the IP address of your target? They have a "resolve" tab for that. Click the "resolve tab" and input www.sailnet.com, for example, to find out the IP of the sailnet server. Then input that IP address under the "traceroute" tab.

MedSailor


----------



## SVAuspicious

cb32863 said:


> I call BS, prove it. To a specific cell phone? This isn't TV or the movies. Every time you connect to an ISP you get a different IP. Nothing is hard coded to a device as far as IP's are concerned. Prove it is a cell phone. Locations are ify as well when it comes to IP's. Like I said, prove it, show me the trace.


Thanks to Jeff_H and MedSailor for your support.

It would appear that cb32863 doesn't know as much as he or she thinks he or she does. I apologize for any offense by you attacked ME.

If you have an account on Wikipedia (as others on this thread clearly do) you can see a history tab. That tab shows my comments there were deleted by 108.60.227.26 who is not a reviewer, just another editor like me. Go to any WHOIS server (I use Network Solutions but that is a habit - there are lots of choices). 108.60.227.26 is in an IP block associated with BATELCO - the Bahamas phone company. It might be a fixed IP and it might be a landline but some more poking around (not hard) makes it look like a dynamic IP that is associated most often in the Bahamas with a cell phone, which might be tethered or used directly.

Someone could have used a VNC into the Bahamas but that is very unlikely for something so trivial.

I didn't say a specific phone. I don't have a phone number. I said it came from a BATELCO phone.

If I was law enforcement with the time/date data, the IP address, and a warrant that was recognized by the Government of the Bahamas I (or any official) could get an IMEI and phone number and go back for identity. I am not law enforcement.

If I worked hard enough I could probably narrow things down more (I have a background here) but I don't care enough.

Now if you would just move a little to the left I can get a better picture of you from your webcam.


----------



## outbound

Maybe Putin's friend bought another cello


----------



## Minnewaska

When I look on the history of that wikipedia page, Dave makes his edits under his own name. This most recent one was done with just an IP address. I'm not a tracing expert, but I simply googled the word "trace" followed by the identified address in the history "108.60.227.26" and received a few links that say it's a hacker's IP address. Interesting.

Why would Dave use his name to post the information and try to delete it anonymously?


----------



## SVAuspicious

Minnewaska said:


> I'm not a tracing expert, but I simply googled the word "trace" followed by the identified address in the history "108.60.227.26" and received a few links that say it's a hacker's IP address. Interesting.


Not as interesting as you think. Lots of hackers use dynamic IP addresses and so blocks of them without authentication end up on blacklists. That doesn't mean that every use of that dynamically allocated address is a hacker.


----------



## miatapaul

MedSailor said:


> Agreed! Now, on with the speculation and accusations, lets start speculating about the bahamas cell phone! I think (with absolutely NO basis WHATSOEVER) that this MUST be the owner of the offshore shell company that ran away with IP's money! :eek
> 
> Now it's on the internet (see paragraph above) therefore it must be true! :devil
> 
> /troll
> 
> Medsailor :wink


HMM, isn't Mark in the Bahamas??? Just saying...... ;-)


----------



## Minnewaska

SVAuspicious said:


> .....That doesn't mean that every use of that dynamically allocated address is a hacker.


Right, I wasn't implying it was a hacker, they seem to have better things to do these days. It was interesting that it was essentially an untraceable address.

Still don't see why anyone would have suspected you anonymously deleted your self identified post.


----------



## Yamsailor

It is pretty strange no formal announcement has been made by now. I think it is safe to assume IPY are no longer in existence as we knew it.


----------



## boatpoker

SVAuspicious said:


> I've said before that I won't share what I think I know
> 
> Well let me clear up the ambiguity.
> 
> So when people started spreading rumors I knew to be untrue (or thought I knew and was pretty sure) I shared what I could.
> 
> As events have unfolded it appears that what I thought I knew is likely to be correct
> 
> My intent has been and continues to be to share as much as I can
> 
> I've told SN that I have a good source and shared what I can. Believe me or not..


What ??????
Have you actually said anything ?


----------



## Yamsailor

I have to agree with Boatpoker on this one. SVAuspicious--you have not stated anything.



boatpoker said:


> What ??????
> Have you actually said anything ?


----------



## smackdaddy

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this whole thing has been ridiculous.


----------



## cb32863

SVAuspicious said:


> Thanks to Jeff_H and MedSailor for your support.
> 
> It would appear that cb32863 doesn't know as much as he or she thinks he or she does. I apologize for any offense by you attacked ME.
> 
> If you have an account on Wikipedia (as others on this thread clearly do) you can see a history tab. That tab shows my comments there were deleted by 108.60.227.26 who is not a reviewer, just another editor like me. Go to any WHOIS server (I use Network Solutions but that is a habit - there are lots of choices). 108.60.227.26 is in an IP block associated with BATELCO - the Bahamas phone company. It might be a fixed IP and it might be a landline but some more poking around (not hard) makes it look like a dynamic IP that is associated most often in the Bahamas with a cell phone, which might be tethered or used directly.
> 
> Someone could have used a VNC into the Bahamas but that is very unlikely for something so trivial.
> 
> I didn't say a specific phone. I don't have a phone number. I said it came from a BATELCO phone.
> 
> If I was law enforcement with the time/date data, the IP address, and a warrant that was recognized by the Government of the Bahamas I (or any official) could get an IMEI and phone number and go back for identity. I am not law enforcement.
> 
> If I worked hard enough I could probably narrow things down more (I have a background here) but I don't care enough.
> 
> Now if you would just move a little to the left I can get a better picture of you from your webcam.


 I am well aware on how to trace an IP address, been doing it for years. I work in IT, for the last 20+ years. I took absolutely no offense whatsoever. Good luck with your threat on looking at me through my web cam. Nice job of documenting a threat on a forum...... Bring it....


----------



## mikel1

I heard there were some shady characters lurking in the shadows that used to hang out at Tartan . . . . O.K. Bad joke . . . .


----------



## xort

I'll repeat, Seaward Yachts.


----------



## SaltyMonkey

cb32863 said:


> I am well aware on how to trace an IP address, been doing it for years. I work in IT, for the last 20+ years. I took absolutely no offense whatsoever. Good luck with your threat on looking at me through my web cam. Nice job of documenting a threat on a forum...... Bring it....


Or it's springboarded through a service VPN and down down the wrabbit hole we go, around and around the world so all this makes me laff so hard i dropped my pantz!


----------



## MedSailor

cb32863 said:


> Good luck with your threat on looking at me through my web cam. Nice job of documenting a threat on a forum...... Bring it....


Seriously?? Now you want momma and the mods on your side? Taking Dave's joke as a threat is an incredible stretch.

Maybe I'm off base. Perhaps you should try SailingAnarchy. They'd be a good sounding board...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


----------



## tdw

cb32863 said:


> I am well aware on how to trace an IP address, been doing it for years. I work in IT, for the last 20+ years. I took absolutely no offense whatsoever. Good luck with your threat on looking at me through my web cam. Nice job of documenting a threat on a forum...... Bring it....


Oh that is just plain silly.


----------



## SVAuspicious

Yamsailor said:


> It is pretty strange no formal announcement has been made by now. I think it is safe to assume IPY are no longer in existence as we knew it.


My information is that announcement is mired in lawyers. Personally I think the lawyers need some adult supervision and the clients should tell them to get off the dime. For all we know there is some fiddly legal issue that really is important to resolve before making an announcement. I don't know.

I have told my sources that the delay is not doing them any good.



boatpoker said:


> What ??????
> Have you actually said anything ?





Yamsailor said:


> I have to agree with Boatpoker on this one. SVAuspicious--you have not stated anything.


Come now. I talk a lot. I have said that my sources who are credible (to me) have told me that good news is coming. I have said that the eviction notice, a photo of which has been posted, was real and was on the door for 24 hours as part of a change in ownership of the buildings and property. I have said that my sources indicated that employees are being paid and invoices are being paid and that construction continues on boats ordered and for stock. I have said I have connected some dots that cross the line into information that cannot be shared with me but that I believe based on reactions and responses (I am a former intelligence professional) I am correct. I won't abuse the trust of my sources by sharing my analysis.



cb32863 said:


> I am well aware on how to trace an IP address, been doing it for years. I work in IT, for the last 20+ years. I took absolutely no offense whatsoever. Good luck with your threat on looking at me through my web cam. Nice job of documenting a threat on a forum...... Bring it....


I'm glad you take no offense. However if you are well aware of how to trace an IP address why did you call BS? That makes no sense. It was a trivial exercise that took me a couple of minutes. If you work in IT you should understand that IP allocations happen in blocks so even the last step from BATELCO in general to BATELCO cell phone was really easy.

If you don't recognize the old webcam joke as a joke perhaps you haven't really been in serious IT for very long. Even desktop support help desk responders know that one. That old chestnut is in the same category as using CD trays as a coffee cup holder and holding a mouse on the screen to click on something.

By the way, your response leads to a high confidence confirmation that you do in fact have a webcam. That identifies a security vulnerability (if anyone for any reason cared enough to pursue it). Security is important, and just because one is paranoid does not mean no one is out to get you. I can give you some security advice if you like.


----------



## Don L

a lot of posts, no info still really


----------



## xort

How much more do you need?

Seaward bought them.
Lawyers mucking things up.
Move along now, nothing to see here.


----------



## cb32863

MedSailor said:


> Seriously?? Now you want momma and the mods on your side? Taking Dave's joke as a threat is an incredible stretch.
> 
> Maybe I'm off base. Perhaps you should try SailingAnarchy. They'd be a good sounding board...
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


Not asking for anything from anyone. At SA you can at least speak your mind.



SVAuspicious said:


> I'm glad you take no offense. However if you are well aware of how to trace an IP address why did you call BS? That makes no sense. It was a trivial exercise that took me a couple of minutes. If you work in IT you should understand that IP allocations happen in blocks so even the last step from BATELCO in general to BATELCO cell phone was really easy.
> 
> If you don't recognize the old webcam joke as a joke perhaps you haven't really been in serious IT for very long. Even desktop support help desk responders know that one. That old chestnut is in the same category as using CD trays as a coffee cup holder and holding a mouse on the screen to click on something.
> 
> By the way, your response leads to a high confidence confirmation that you do in fact have a webcam. That identifies a security vulnerability (if anyone for any reason cared enough to pursue it). Security is important, and just because one is paranoid does not mean no one is out to get you. I can give you some security advice if you like.


What device doesn't have a cam on it the last few years? Yes, of course help desk/service desk people have access to do lots of things to a system, cause well, it's their job.... Yes, I understand how IP blocks are assigned as well. You seem to think you are the only one on this forum that knows anything about IT. Gee, thanks for enlightening me. Next time I have a code issue, I think I will just ask you.

Yeah, heard all those cup holder jokes and the turn up the brightness on the screen ones too. Oh yeah, you heard the one about the gal that used her mouse like the pedal on her sewing machine?!! LMAO Hilarious stuff. Social engineer, yeah, that's a new thing. I know you want people to think you are all 1337 and what not and a hax0r but, I could really care less.

The fact that you brought up looking at people via their cam on their device is a bit creepy though.... actually, a lot creepy. So maybe you do have the skillz you speak of, good for you. But like I said, I don't care. Been so much bluster and BS in this thread I doubt a quarter of it is the facts.

Carry on proving to everyone you are the only person that knows anything about anything and all us little people need your hand of knowledge.

I am going sailing. Which, is the point of this place......


----------



## smackdaddy

SVAuspicious said:


> I have told my sources that the delay is not doing them any good. I have said I have connected some dots that cross the line into information that cannot be shared with me but that I believe based on reactions and responses (I am a former intelligence professional) I am correct. I won't abuse the trust of my sources by sharing my analysis.


Eyeroll.



SVAuspicious said:


> By the way, your response leads to a high confidence confirmation that you do in fact have a webcam. That identifies a security vulnerability (if anyone for any reason cared enough to pursue it). Security is important, and just because one is paranoid does not mean no one is out to get you. I can give you some security advice if you like.


Great. A nerdfight...










Ausp - let's just say this whole thing has certainly not done your credibility any favors.


----------



## Hudsonian

I'll be glad when this over, so I can go back to ignoring Island Packet.


----------



## mstern

xort said:


> How much more do you need?
> 
> Seaward bought them.
> Lawyers mucking things up.
> Move along now, nothing to see here.


Why do you say this? What is your source? I know you said it a week or so ago (actually, you said Nick Hake, who I believe you incorrectly identified as the current owner of Seaward, bought IP), but you've never shown us the basis for this assertion.

Can you elaborate?


----------



## blt2ski

xort said:


> How much more do you need?
> 
> Seaward bought them.
> Lawyers mucking things up.
> Move along now, nothing to see here.


Ahh, an ignoramous thread this is ez et?!?!?!?!?

Master Denby would be so happy to see that his reputation is still beating strong!:devil

Marty


----------



## JimMcGee

I check in here every so often because I'm curious what's going on with Island Packet. I also drop in on the Island Packet Owners Forum.

What's interesting is here on SailNet - where so many diss Island Packet - there are a couple of hundred posts that are like an episode of Seinfeld (it's a thread about nothing).

Meanwhile over on the Island Packet Owners forum - where folks actually have a reason to care - the only thread on the subject has *THREE POSTS*. It basically says "_There's a lot of rumors out there, the real story is coming from the factory, please stand by_". And they are. All the recent threads since then are about - sailing !

Am I the only one who sees the irony? 

BTW, for any IP address conspiracy theorists, according to his sig the Mod for the Island Packet owners forum is sitting on his boat in -- wait for it -- the Bahamas !







<insert dramatic music>


----------



## SVAuspicious

JimMcGee said:


> BTW, for any IP address conspiracy theorists, according to his sig the Mod for the Island Packet owners forum is sitting on his boat in -- wait for it -- the Bahamas !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <insert dramatic music>


Hayden is a good guy. I talked to him on the phone a couple of days ago.


----------



## newt

Quick, turn off your web cam! Now can you see me through my phone too? Is it time to wrap the phone in tin foil? Can you see me through my chart plotter?? Quick! to the sea with the sextant and the paper charts! And disconnect the battery as soon as the sails are up!
Please someone tell me! Is there danger in the VHF and the depth sounder? The radio waves are causing my brain to broach!

(Glad I got that off my chest)


----------



## Erindipity

newt said:


> Quick, turn off your web cam! Now can you see me through my phone too? Is it time to wrap the phone in tin foil? Can you see me through my chart plotter?? Quick! to the sea with the sextant and the paper charts! And disconnect the battery as soon as the sails are up!
> Please someone tell me! Is there danger in the VHF and the depth sounder? The radio waves are causing my brain to broach!
> 
> (Glad I got that off my chest)


Just wait until Microsoft gets heavily involved in Marine Navigation. 
There you are, sailing along, and you start a pirated copy of "Captain Ron" on the Windows GPS tablet, and the next thing that you know- 
Beyond it is another dimension-a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. You've just crossed over into... the Blue Sea Of Death.
For the next hour, sit quietly and we will control all that you see and hear.
You can't control the Horizontal. You can't control the Vertical. You can't even edit the Registry...

Oh, anything new about Island Packet?

¬Erindipity


----------



## xort

JimMcGee said:


> Meanwhile over on the Island Packet Owners forum - All the recent threads since then are about - sailing !


Well, motorsailing :laugh. :laugh. :laugh


----------



## Minnewaska

I'm told, Hake Marine, parent of Seaward Yachts, announced it was buying IP yesterday. They say they are going to continue to market all three brands, Seaward, Island Packet and Blue Jacket.


----------



## mstern

Minnewaska said:


> I'm told, Hake Marine, parent of Seaward Yachts, announced it was buying IP yesterday. They say they are going to continue to market all three brands, Seaward, Island Packet and Blue Jacket.


where did they make that announcement? There is nothing on the Hake, IP or IPYOA sites about it.


----------



## newt

mstern said:


> where did they make that announcement? There is nothing on the Hake, IP or IPYOA sites about it.


Do you really expect anything from reality on this thread?


----------



## Yamsailor

Didn't you see the announcement? It is hanging on the Brooklyn Bridge facing south towards NY Harbor. By the way--the bridge is for sale. I can get you a really good deal on it.



newt said:


> Do you really expect anything from reality on this thread?


----------



## mstern

Yamsailor said:


> Didn't you see the announcement? It is hanging on the Brooklyn Bridge facing south towards NY Harbor. By the way--the bridge is for sale. I can get you a really good deal on it.


Yam, you poor deluded fool; the bridge can't be for sale. I already put a deposit down on it last month.


----------



## mr_f

My reliable sources tell me that SpaceX has bought Island Packet and that all new IPs will be designed to be used as rocket landing platforms.


----------



## Don L

mstern said:


> Yam, you poor deluded fool; the bridge can't be for sale. I already put a deposit down on it last month.


That's OK I have the title to the land on each end of it.

Meanwhile far as Island Packet we are still getting made-up crap (it's just made up crap till there is official word otherwise).


----------



## Minnewaska

I'm hanging around to watch the skeptics eat crow. 

While I've said from the start that this hurt the IP brand, I believe the sale happened.


----------



## Don L

Minnewaska said:


> I'm hanging around to watch the skeptics eat crow.
> 
> While I've said from the start that this hurt the IP brand, I believe the sale happened.


Which skeptics are you talking about? Are they the ones that believe that someone new could buy IPY and built the same boats they have been making and somehow have better results?

Or are you talking about the ones that don't believe internet rumors until something official is reported?


----------



## Minnewaska

Don0190 said:


> ....Or are you talking about the ones that don't believe internet rumors until something official is reported?


Not trusting an internet rumor is understandable. Declaring it "made-up crap" (your words) is much more than just waiting for an official public announcement. Further, Dave (SVAuspicous) took quite a few hits here, for just sharing what he appropriately could, while never insisting that anyone take his word for it. Based on what I've been told, outside this forum, I think he's going to be proven correct.

I read a printed press release, with all three logos on top, dated April 11. I will grant that I could not personally find where it was published, but I also find it hard to believe that someone went to the effort to manufacture it.

I'm not an IPY groupie, so I don't really have a dog in this hunt. It only caught my attention, since I had just toured the Blue Jacket with a buddy who does have an interest in one.


----------



## mstern

Minnewaska said:


> I'm hanging around to watch the skeptics eat crow.


I don't think anyone who posted on this thread will be eating crow; I don't recall anyone who has said "IP wasn't sold". There's been some speculation, a lot of "regardless of what is happening, I can't believe they haven't released a statement yet", and even some "the boats suck so who cares anyway". But for the most part, the posts have been "that's interesting, but I won't believe your theory until there is an official announcement".

That's where I am; I appreciate Auspicious' input and I find it credible; not enough to fully believe it, but enough to keep me interested.

And Minne, I must say that I find an unreleased press release dated two days ago fairly weak; I don't totally discount it (assuming it was "real" to begin with), but you have to assume there is a good reason it wasn't released.


----------



## blt2ski

Master Denby is not going to be too happy with some of you not ignoring this thread......at least until some REAL news comes out........

Ignoring as we should!

last 2 of 4 weekends had good sailing. Got a first in the race weekend one, and unfortunetly 4th by all of 3-4 minutes after 14 miles on the 2nd, but 17th out of over 100. One of my better OA finishes for that race......

actual sailing is MUCH more fun to talk about!

Marty


----------



## ottos

Extra Extra ! Read all about it!

Island Packet and Blue Jacket Yachts acquired by Hake Marine | Seaward Yachts


----------



## mstern

Hooray!


----------



## Pamlicotraveler

It's about time. Time will tell if there is any brand value remaining.


----------



## seaner97

mstern said:


> I don't think anyone who posted on this thread will be eating crow; I don't recall anyone who has said "IP wasn't sold". There's been some speculation, a lot of "regardless of what is happening, I can't believe they haven't released a statement yet", and even some "the boats suck so who cares anyway". But for the most part, the posts have been "that's interesting, but I won't believe your theory until there is an official announcement".
> 
> That's where I am; I appreciate Auspicious' input and I find it credible; not enough to fully believe it, but enough to keep me interested.
> 
> And Minne, I must say that I find an unreleased press release dated two days ago fairly weak; I don't totally discount it (assuming it was "real" to begin with), but you have to assume there is a good reason it wasn't released.


There aren't too many involved in this thread that I've seen eat crow, even when demonstrated to be factually incorrect. Wouldn't hold your breath Minne.


----------



## Minnewaska

Right. As I said, it is those that took personal shots (particularly at Dave) that look bad now. Those that simply weren't going to believe, until now, I understand. Several were accused of making it up, or their credibility was declared in question.

Yes, the accusers are eating crow. No, they won't admit it.


----------



## JimMcGee

ottos said:


> Extra Extra ! Read all about it!
> 
> Island Packet and Blue Jacket Yachts acquired by Hake Marine | Seaward Yachts


LOL. It took so long it feels kinda anti-climatic !

I thought this was interesting "_The company plans to offer all three sailboat brands through select dealers, *along with factory direct sales*_."

As a bay sailor Island Packet isn't my cup of tea, but when I checked out the owners site these past weeks it's obvious these folks are out there sailing and enjoying their boats. Some here like to dis them, but they were doing something right with so many loyal owners.

I hope Hake/Seaward make the brand successful again.


----------



## SVAuspicious

This is the good news.

First it puts Island Packet, Blue Jacket, and Seaward under single ownership which provides economies of scale across the brands. It also reduces overhead for Seaward. All that is good.

Since this was an internally driven sale and Bob Johnson will continue to be engaged with IP, BJ, and now with Seaward the team of Bob and Tim Jacketts will join with Ken Fickett, Bill Soverel, and Seaton Neville to carry Bob's vision into the future with the perspective of Tim and the Seward design team. This is good for all the brands.

Since the sale was internally driven there will be less disruption and turnover in employees. From a practical level that means business as usual for staff and for customer service. It means you can still call IP and get someone who will look up the entire history of your boat (as best they know it) and share that information with you.

It means when Bob finally transitions to full retirement there will be a design and management team already in place to pick up his legacy and with all the honor that is so appropriate carry it into the future. 

Finalizing the deal took longer than anyone expected. Three fine brands of sail boats are moving from personality-driven management to a longer potentially indefinite perspective. This is good for sailors everywhere. Whether you buy a new boat or a used boat a brand that has been respected as iconic is in position to support their customers and owners far into the future. 

I personally did not choose to purchase an IP but I respect Bob, the company, and the brand. In my opinion the puchase of IP and consolidation of brands is truly good news.


----------



## miatapaul

Minnewaska said:


> Right. As I said, it is those that took personal shots (particularly at Dave) that look bad now. Those that simply weren't going to believe, until now, I understand. Several were accused of making it up, or their credibility was declared in question.
> 
> Yes, the accusers are eating crow. No, they won't admit it.


Well I think the one thing we can all agree on is it was very poorly handled. If you are going to sell your company why would you disconnect your phone lines? The company I work for has been bought out twice since I started here, and never have we disconnected phone lines, and we had press releases ready before rumors had a chance to get around. That sort of thing can really bring a deal down. I think (yes conjecture) that likely there was a deal, things did not work out so there was an eviction notice, phone lines going down and what not, then the deal was renegotiated, or another buyer came in and finally went through. Really the only thing that makes sense. You would not disconnect phone lines (what they cost like $200 a month or so) and eviction notices are not put up when there is a change in the lease agreement.

By the way the phones are still disconnected. (now getting no longer in service message, rather than the busy signal originally) One would think the new owner would want to keep the old number active since many who own boats and lots of advertising and paperwork have the number on it.


----------



## Minnewaska

Yup, as I originally said, this did no good for the brand. However, I will also add that this outcome was probably the best case scenario. If they simple emerged on their own, they would be tainted by the foreclosure notice, etc. However, being under new ownership will white wash it a bit. Still, I fully agree, it was not a good situation.

I'm giving Dave (svA) the gold star here, in that he hasn't multi-quoted all the hate he received above and replied to it in one big post, in captial letters........ WRONG. Me, on the other hand, I would have done it.


----------



## smackdaddy

xort said:


> Nick Hake, owner of Seaward Yachts has bought Island Packet.


Xort - thanks for telling us _*a freakin' week ago*_.

I don't think this is at all good for IP. That brand is as good as dead as we suspected in the first place. It does, however, give Hake/Seaward a good construction platform/capability. So we'll see what happens.


----------



## guitarguy56

This was all a good laugh... IP under any direction will not compete with Hunter-Marlow or any of the European branded boats coming to our shores... No appeal for dated boats. My two cents...


----------



## Minnewaska

IP continues to have a very loyal niche market. They aren't trying to compete with some of the brands mentioned. I also suspect they will shift toward the Blue Jacket model and I suspect it could be successful. 

I see no one is walking back their very incorrect assessment of Dave's credibility.


----------



## Lazerbrains

guitarguy56 said:


> This was all a good laugh... IP under any direction will not compete with Hunter-Marlow or any of the European branded boats coming to our shores... No appeal for dated boats. My two cents...


LOL - not even in competition. One is designed for dockside living, the other designed for crossing oceans.


----------



## miatapaul

Lazerbrains said:


> LOL - not even in competition. One is designed for dockside living, the other designed for crossing oceans.


Your right those Hunters and Euro boats sure seem to be going around the world! Most of the IPs around me are dock queens. May be that they had to save up so long to buy the boat, they don't have the energy to go cruising anymore?


----------



## Yamsailor

The majority of people who sail today are day sailors and weekend warriors. Get X and Gen Y won't be buying large boats--they don't have the time or the money.



miatapaul said:


> Your right those Hunters and Euro boats sure seem to be going around the world! Most of the IPs around me are dock queens. May be that they had to save up so long to buy the boat, they don't have the energy to go cruising anymore?


----------



## mr_f

Aaahhhh.... we can finally move on from whose rumors were the most questionable, to whose boat is the crappiest. Yay! All is right with the world.


----------



## xort

smackdaddy said:


> Xort - thanks for telling us _*a freakin' week ago*_.
> .


You are welcome.

Did anyone doubt me for one minute?

Did anyone think I made this up?

I don't need to use a webcam to know what I know. I have ways to make people talk.


----------



## boatpoker

mr_f said:


> Aaahhhh.... we can finally move on from whose rumors were the most questionable, to whose boat is the crappiest. Yay! All is right with the world.


:wink


----------



## xort

Back in January (yes January) when the troubles first surfaced, there was a rumour that Peter Johnstone of Gunboat fame was interested in IP. 

He had plans to build a foiling Island Packet. The new boat was to be called the Flying Pig.


----------



## outbound

Dave thanks for hanging in there and behaving like a gentleman.


----------



## smackdaddy

Minnewaska said:


> I see no one is walking back their very incorrect assessment of Dave's credibility.


I don't know who you're talking about - and don't really care that much - but I stand by absolutely everything I said in this thread. IP, as a brand/product, hit the skids and cratered. It's future is likely very bleak. And Ausp's credibility definitely took a beating. No question.

In the end, Xort was the one to listen to - obviously.


----------



## Don L

xort said:


> He had plans to build a foiling Island Packet. The new boat was to be called the Flying Pig.


:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher


----------



## miatapaul

xort said:


> Back in January (yes January) when the troubles first surfaced, there was a rumour that Peter Johnstone of Gunboat fame was interested in IP.
> 
> He had plans to build a foiling Island Packet. The new boat was to be called the Flying Pig.


And here was the mascot, so the project got pretty far along! (sculpture by a friend of mine)


----------



## Minnewaska

smackdaddy said:


> I don't know who you're talking about - and *don't really care that much* - but I stand by absolutely everything I said in this thread. IP, as a brand/product, hit the skids and cratered. It's future is likely very bleak. And Ausp's credibility definitely took a beating. No question.
> 
> In the end, Xort was the one to listen to - obviously.


If you didn't care, you wouldn't have responded.

You were among those that took cheap shots at Dave, although not alone, and were proven dead ass wrong. He gave honest input that was proven correct. You know my comment is not about the brand, it's about the personal attacks on Dave. You blew this one. The fact that you won't own being wrong defines your character.


----------



## newt

xort said:


> Back in January (yes January) when the troubles first surfaced, there was a rumour that Peter Johnstone of Gunboat fame was interested in IP.
> 
> He had plans to build a foiling Island Packet. The new boat was to be called the Flying Pig.


Sure that will happen...
When pigs fly.


----------



## smackdaddy

Minnewaska said:


> If you didn't care, you wouldn't have responded.
> 
> You were among those that took cheap shots at Dave, although not alone, and were proven dead ass wrong. He gave honest input that was proven correct. You know my comment is not about the brand, it's about the personal attacks on Dave. You blew this one. The fact that you won't own being wrong defines your character.


Except for the fact that I was right...on all counts.


----------



## Lazerbrains

mr_f said:


> Aaahhhh.... we can finally move on from whose rumors were the most questionable, to whose boat is the crappiest. Yay! All is right with the world.


Certainly not saying one is crappier than the other, just saying they are designed for different things. That should seem obvious.


----------



## mr_f

Lazerbrains said:


> Certainly not saying one is crappier than the other, just saying they are designed for different things. That should seem obvious.


The comment (made in jest) was not directed specifically at you.

If you are really claiming that you were not passing judgement by stating that Hunters and all European designed boats were designed to stay tied to the dock, I will take you at your word. I guess. Does seem a bit silly though. (As do the statements that IPs have no appeal to anyone.)


----------



## highside

xort said:


> Back in January (yes January) when the troubles first surfaced, there was a rumour that Peter Johnstone of Gunboat fame was interested in IP.
> 
> He had plans to build a foiling Island Packet. The new boat was to be called the Flying Pig.


Ok, funny, but you've obviously never sailed an Island Packet. My 485 will do 9 knots all day on a reach in 18-20 true. Faster than any Hunter/Catalina/Beneteau I've ever sailed. And it won't fall apart in 5 years. But no, it won't win the America's Cup. 
I can only speak for my 485, but you see... Its. Not. Slow. But the jokes are funny. If you want to race, buy a racer. If you want to cross oceans, buy an IP, Hylas, Garcia, Amel, Contessa, etc..., there's lots of good ones. You want to cruise around your local area, buy a Catalihunterneau. Comparing between these categories is ridiculous. 
Oh, and I'm glad IP is hopefully going to live on, we'll see how it turns out. They basically put themselves out of business by building boats that last forever and filling the requirement of a niche market.

Sorry to pick on you, I'm actually going to remember that line to make fun of my own boat... And then pass everybody on my way out to sea in the afternoon.


----------



## mr_f

highside said:


> Ok, funny, but you've obviously never sailed an Island Packet. My 485 will do 9 knots all day on a reach in 18-20 true. Faster than any Hunter/Catalina/Beneteau I've ever sailed. And it won't fall apart in 5 years. But no, it won't win the America's Cup.
> I can only speak for my 485, but you see... Its. Not. Slow. But the jokes are funny. If you want to race, buy a racer. If you want to cross oceans, buy an IP, Hylas, Garcia, Amel, Contessa, etc..., there's lots of good ones. You want to cruise around your local area, buy a Catalihunterneau. Comparing between these categories is ridiculous.


See lazerbrains? Silly.

From where I am sitting I can see more than a dozen Hunters, Catalinas and Beneteaus that are more than 30 years old. I wonder how they got put back together after they fell apart 25 years ago.

Personally, I have actually sailed several IPs. With the exception of the IP Cat, they all sailed great on a reach in 18-20 knots of wind. Barreled along like a freight train. Of course, I haven't had the luxury of always reaching in 18-20knts. I am not convinced that is the best criteria to measure sailing performance.


----------



## highside

mr_f said:


> See lazerbrains? Silly.
> 
> From where I am sitting I can see more than a dozen Hunters, Catalinas and Beneteaus that are more than 30 years old. I wonder how they got put back together after they fell apart 25 years ago.


Ok, 5 years is an obvious exaggeration on my part, my point being that the build quality is A LOT better in the IP. But you pay for it, so again not the best boat for every person in every situation. More Hunters, Catalinas, and Beneteaus are sold because they are better boats for more people's situations. Totally valid. 
I was speaking to the fact that so many people just assume the IP is slow. It's not. It's the fastest boat I've ever sailed (I haven't sailed many boats). I gave the example of 9 knots because it surprised the crap out of me how fast this boat is. 
It will not point as well as a Beneteau etc., but it's faster on a reach with a good breeze. That was my only point. I don't think most people would guess that, certainly not from reading this thread (and other threads where IP speed is mentioned). If coastal cruising/saturday racing/dockside entertaining is your thing, don't get an IP. If you want to go places far away, it is one of the best choices!


----------



## mr_f

highside said:


> Ok, 5 years is an obvious exaggeration on my part, my point being that the build quality is A LOT better in the IP. But you pay for it, so again not the best boat for every person in every situation. More Hunters, Catalinas, and Beneteaus are sold because they are better boats for more people's situations. Totally valid.
> I was speaking to the fact that so many people just assume the IP is slow. It's not. It's the fastest boat I've ever sailed (I haven't sailed many boats). I gave the example of 9 knots because it surprised the crap out of me how fast this boat is.
> It will not point as well as a Beneteau etc., but it's faster on a reach with a good breeze. That was my only point. I don't think most people would guess that, certainly not from reading this thread (and other threads where IP speed is mentioned).


Fair enough. And I am glad you like your boat. I am in favor of everyone loving their boats.


----------



## xort

9 knots in a 48' boat? I would hope so.


----------



## SVAuspicious

miatapaul said:


> Well I think the one thing we can all agree on is it was very poorly handled.


I agree.

The eviction notice still strikes me as odd but I do trust my sources and the story I passed along was what I was told. There are all kinds of really flaky state laws and county ordinances in this country though so at some level almost nothing surprises me. Read your local paper and tell me your local government isn't at this moment in the midst of doing something strange. *grin* 12 Ridiculous Government Regulations That Are Almost Too Bizarre To Believe - Business Insider

The telephone lines I simply do not understand. I can think of some missteps that could cause a short outage but this lingering situation simply defies belief. I would expect even changing ownership could be done with a database change that wouldn't cause a blip at any but the most incompetent telephone company. Wait - incompetent telephone companies. Hmm. *grin* Maybe Joe Schlunk's minibike store and VOIP telephone company?



miatapaul said:


> Your right those Hunters and Euro boats sure seem to be going around the world! Most of the IPs around me are dock queens. May be that they had to save up so long to buy the boat, they don't have the energy to go cruising anymore?


I don't think any brand has a lock on the dock queen market.



xort said:


> Did anyone doubt me for one minute?
> 
> Did anyone think I made this up?


I didn't. I knew you were correct. I just couldn't say so.



xort said:


> Back in January (yes January) when the troubles first surfaced, there was a rumour that Peter Johnstone of Gunboat fame was interested in IP.
> 
> He had plans to build a foiling Island Packet. The new boat was to be called the Flying Pig.


*sigh* We already have a Flying Pig in the cruising community and we don't need any more.


----------



## xort

Now you're dissing Skip??


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## Lazerbrains

mr_f said:


> The comment (made in jest) was not directed specifically at you.
> 
> If you are really claiming that you were not passing judgement by stating that Hunters and all European designed boats were designed to stay tied to the dock, I will take you at your word. I guess. Does seem a bit silly though. (As do the statements that IPs have no appeal to anyone.)


No worries. And just to be clear, I never stated Hunters were designed to "stay tied to the dock". I believe they are designed for coastal cruising of the type where you are in a port every night, as opposed to being at sea for a 3 week stretch. Large cockpits with tables and midboom sheeting are designed for comfort in a slip/mooring/anchor. Small cockpits with a bridgedeck are designed to drain quickly while 1000 miles offshore.

To be clear, I don't own an IP or a Hunter, and have no dog in this fight. Just refuting the earlier ridiculous claim that they are in direct competition, which is just silly. Both designed for very different purposes.


----------



## outbound

Much of the above is silly. Different boats for different folks seems a righteous attitude.

Last year was chatting with a friend. He did multiple legs of the round the world rally. He was on a Hylas as captain. He noted the folks on an IP were always the last to come in. But also noted the boat had no breakage and the crew were smiling, happy and not beat up. They were immediately ready to explore or party. 

Remember a discussion about what makes a good cruiser. In order of importance-
Keep the water out
Keep crew safe
Keep crew rested,comfortable and healthy 
Durable with systems easy to fix and as many redundancies as possible.
Good average days work to destination. Note this doesn't mean best sailing polar. It means what VMG the crew on board can get out of her day after day. 
Cost of ownership.
Storage (fluids, sustenance, tools/spares, etc.)
Life at anchor.


The discussion was with OCC members not day sailors. You could very reasonably argue with the above list or its order but in any list speed is just one line and would expect how speed is defined by a cruiser to be different than by a racer.

Different boats for different folks.
Comparing an IP house to a French production boat is silly. Given if you look at sailing polars you will realize on a beam reach pretty much nothing matters (rig/appendages/canoebody) except LWL. Want to go fast. Get a boat that planes or at least floats on the water not in the water. When I was still working would weekend on Block. Often would sail by my neighbors IP. No performance on a reach doesn't tell the story. Would get smoked by a one off racer out of the same Marina. Yes sailing polar is only one parameter of a good cruiser. 


When in Barrington my slip neighbor was a IP 485. We got friendly so know they are beautifully constructed and meet many of the criteria of a good cruiser. Real problem is even within the niche of stick built boats near that price point there are other boats produced off shore where labor costs and production costs are less. Buyers generally are experienced sailors. A very tough market for them not just due to used vessels. Perhaps not changing the vision is what's needed. After all there is a segment wanting a full keeled boat and they are pretty much the only US offering. Rather one would hope they could make the same quality in such a way to allow sufficient margin to stay in the black.


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## guitarguy56

Lazerbrains said:


> No worries. And just to be clear, I never stated Hunters were designed to "stay tied to the dock". I believe they are designed for coastal cruising of the type where you are in a port every night, as opposed to being at sea for a 3 week stretch. Large cockpits with tables and midboom sheeting are designed for comfort in a slip/mooring/anchor. Small cockpits with a bridgedeck are designed to drain quickly while 1000 miles offshore.
> 
> To be clear, I don't own an IP or a Hunter, and have no dog in this fight. Just refuting the earlier ridiculous claim that they are in direct competition, which is just silly. Both designed for very different purposes.


Huh? So all those Hunters in the Caribbean, Mediterranean, South America, Europe, etc. were all transported on big ships because the owners could not sail them past several miles offshore from the U.S. mainland?


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## outbound

Some random suggestions to IP
Get rid of the Hoyt boom or offer it as an option. Hard enough to get two slots working correctly. Worst with that thing and quite a knee knocker. ( btw not a fan of self tacking jobs on a passage maker either. Just needless).
Offer a low maintenance package. My neighbor wrote checks. I know their labor rate. Can't image his yard bill.
Get rid of that hull color or offer white as a no cost option.
If you do redesign keep that look. It's timeless.


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## SVAuspicious

xort said:


> Now you're dissing Skip??


I know Skip. We've talked a number of times, including in his cockpit in Marsh Harbour. I've helped him out a few times. Skip is well aware of the issue where we disagree quite strongly. I don't think he leaves a Clean Wake on that issue; he thinks it doesn't matter. It's between Skip and me and a bunch of other cruisers adversely effected by his actions.



outbound said:


> Much of the above is silly. Different boats for different folks seems a righteous attitude.


I agree. I looked carefully at IPs before buying Auspicious. I wanted a boat that pointed better than the IP 370. They are still lovely boats and for ICW snowbirds, Bahamas cruisers, Mediterranean cruisers, and many other use cases they are a viable and attractive option. Their owners tend to be extremely loyal which is a real measure of their design and quality.



outbound said:


> Comparing an IP house to a French production boat is silly.


Yep. As you note the application is different. Generally fast on a reach, slower upwind, very comfortable. Very solid.



outbound said:


> Some random suggestions to IP
> Get rid of the Hoyt boom or offer it as an option. Hard enough to get two slots working correctly. Worst with that thing and quite a knee knocker. ( btw not a fan of self tacking jobs on a passage maker either. Just needless).
> Offer a low maintenance package. My neighbor wrote checks. I know their labor rate. Can't image his yard bill.
> Get rid of that hull color or offer white as a no cost option.
> If you do redesign keep that look. It's timeless.


I don't like the Hoyt boom either, but for the IP market it is perceived as making staysail trim easier. It doesn't matter if that is true or not - perception is reality. Consider how many SNers make things up and come to believe their own fantasies. *grin*

I'd add one more to your list: make more commissioning options available direct from the factory. Too many new boats become problems because of local commissioning (fridge, electronics, A/C, etc.) not because of factory builds.


----------



## miatapaul

guitarguy56 said:


> Huh? So all those Hunters in the Caribbean, Mediterranean, South America, Europe, etc. were all transported on big ships because the owners could not sail them past several miles offshore from the U.S. mainland?


Exactly that was the point of my snipe saying that hunters were out there sailing the world seas. I am sure for every IP out there cruising there are 100's Euros and 100's of Hunters/Catalinas actually out there sailing the worlds oceans making long crossings. To me it seems that IP does what the old Westsail did, sell the idea of passage making. Are they good for cruising, yes but they are very expensive. Are they well made, I am sure they are, though I know over the years they had serious flaws in the basic design like encapsulated chain plates that were behind cabinetry making inspection impossible and causing some demastings. Tanks made out of poor materials that can't be replaced without dismantling the entire interior of the boat. Questionable slurry of concrete and iron used as ballast. Just things I never understood why they were done in a boat at that price range and things that they were slow to move away from. Sure on a a price point boat, like the Irwin with there encapsulated chain plates but on a boat sold as a passage maker? Just seems like shortcuts in the design.

I just never understood the cult of the Island Packet. They have been successful at selling the dream at a premium. But other boats are offering similar level of fit and finish, and better performance for less. Think Outbound and Passport to name two. Then there are used boats like the Valliant, Pacific Seacraft. Blue Jacket is a step but I am not sure it is the right one, and it's slow sales seem to indicate that is not. Perhaps it was just to little to late. I hope Hake does well with them and the taking on of debit does not do them in, would really suck to loose three brands in one shot. Often happens with the taking on of debit to buy competitors.


----------



## xort

SVAuspicious said:


> I know Skip. We've talked a number of times, including in his cockpit in Marsh Harbour. I've helped him out a few times. Skip is well aware of the issue where we disagree quite strongly. I don't think he leaves a Clean Wake on that issue; he thinks it doesn't matter. It's between Skip and me and a bunch of other cruisers adversely effected by his actions.


Huh? Where did that come from? I was making a light hearted joke about not needing another flying pig and you went off on Skip without giving details. Is he a mass murderer, pedophile, power boater?


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## robert sailor

There are lots of different opinions on IP boats but there are also some facts. They are very roomy boats, well finished. They have a loyal following and in the Caribbean there are lots of them. Of all the different boats out there I have to say that where ever we have been (and we have been all over) they always show up in very large numbers compared to other boats when you take in the fact that they were never produced in really high numbers. This simply suggests that they are chosen in disproportionate numbers as a cruising boat in this area. Yes we see Hunters as well but in much lower numbers even though theI r production numbers were higher. I am not a potential buyer for this boat but no one can argue with the fact that they are indeed very popular, especially in the Caribbean.


----------



## Lazerbrains

guitarguy56 said:


> Huh? So all those Hunters in the Caribbean, Mediterranean, South America, Europe, etc. were all transported on big ships because the owners could not sail them past several miles offshore from the U.S. mainland?


"All those?" How many is that? Just curious..... I didn't see any in the Marquesas or Fiji or Cook Islands. Plenty of IPs though....

Sailing to the Caribbean is hardly a transoceanic passage. Sailing to S. America is coastal sailing.

I'm going to assume by your comments that you have not done any transoceanic voyages.

Only in an alternate universe would one consider a capsize ratio of 2, S/A of 20, spade rudder, large cockpit, and below deck plastic ports (Hunter 376 for example) as design attributes geared towards transoceanic voyages. Sounds more like a boat geared to be fast in light airs, and responsive at the helm.

Quite frankly, I am perplexed that you perceive this as a slight against Hunter. I don't see anyone claiming that an IP is a great race boat and spins on a dime. It's not meant to. Makes neither a better boat by themselves - just that each is better at different things.


----------



## guitarguy56

Lazerbrains said:


> "All those?" How many is that? Just curious..... I didn't see any in the Marquesas or Fiji or Cook Islands. Plenty of IPs though....
> 
> Sailing to the Caribbean is hardly a transoceanic passage. Sailing to S. America is coastal sailing.
> 
> I'm going to assume by your comments that you have not done any transoceanic voyages.
> 
> Only in an alternate universe would one consider a capsize ratio of 2, S/A of 20, spade rudder, large cockpit, and below deck plastic ports (Hunter 376 for example) as design attributes geared towards transoceanic voyages. Sounds more like a boat geared to be fast in light airs, and responsive at the helm.
> 
> Quite frankly, I am perplexed that you perceive this as a slight against Hunter. I don't see anyone claiming that an IP is a great race boat and spins on a dime. It's not meant to. Makes neither a better boat by themselves - just that each is better at different things.


Lazer... You assume too much... dangerous I might add for you to think that way! I see many Hunters in Puerto Rico slipped right in Palmas Del Mar.... where I frequent... Maybe you haven't seen them cause you aren't there right? They had to sail there right, many found where one might not expect... sure not going to post any numbers here... but you're welcome to do the research yourself.

Yes many Hunters everywhere in the Caribbean... maybe perhaps you haven't been in the Caribbean lately (of course it's MY assumption right?)... Haven't been on any voyages? Silly you! What does it matter that one sails cross the Atlantic or from Miami to the Caribbean or any of the Leeward Islands? It's all bluewater from what I (think) know... but by you're assumption I don't know anything? Yeah...


----------



## Lazerbrains

For most, a Hunter 28.5 with a capsize ratio of 2.2 (yikes) and a motion comfort of 18, would be extremely low on any experienced sailors list of offshore boats. I'm glad to hear you disagree - your are a rebel thinking outside the box, bucking the trend, et al. Good for you. Go out and prove common thinking wrong.

Would love to hear about your transoceanic sailing experience. Seems like you know much more about it than I do.



guitarguy56 said:


> Lazer... You assume too much... dangerous I might add for you to think that way! I see many Hunters in Puerto Rico slipped right in Palmas Del Mar.... where I frequent... Maybe you haven't seen them cause you aren't there right? They had to sail there right, many found where one might not expect... sure not going to post any numbers here... but you're welcome to do the research yourself.
> 
> Yes many Hunters everywhere in the Caribbean... maybe perhaps you haven't been in the Caribbean lately (of course it's MY assumption right?)... Haven't been on any voyages? Silly you! What does it matter that one sails cross the Atlantic or from Miami to the Caribbean or any of the Leeward Islands? It's all bluewater from what I (think) know... but by you're assumption I don't know anything? Yeah...


----------



## guitarguy56

Lazerbrains said:


> For most, a Hunter 28.5 with a capsize ratio of 2.2 (yikes), would be extremely low on any experienced sailors list of offshore boats. I'm glad to hear you disagree - your are a rebel thinking outside the box, bucking the trend, et al. Good for you. Go out and prove common thinking wrong.
> 
> Would love to hear about your transoceanic crossings. Seems like you know much more about it than I do.


Why the heck are you talking about my Hunter 28.5 for doing transoceanic crossings? You think this is the vessel I'm talking about that I'm taking into the Caribbean? Again SILLY YOU! I sail my Hunter along the East Coast anywhere from Charleston, SC down the ICW into West Palm Beach, FL... Haven't even taken it to Bahamas though I'm fully capable and so is the Hunter... again reading into it... I'm once again saying these Hunters of various lengths are in the Caribbean and RIGHT there in Palmas Del Mar... I frequent this marina and see the various sailboats and powerboats since I own a condo there... do you? If you're in the Marquesas or Fiji as you say you should see them... I have Spanish sailor friends from Spain that have done the pond crossing many times on their Hunter and or Jenneaus currently sailing the Caribbean now. No need to confirm it with you!


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## robert sailor

One would expect that boats that are built in Florida would frequent the Caribbean and they do but while I have not been in PR I can say that in the other areas of the Caribbean Hunters are certainly there but the numbers are not all that high compared with their production runs. It's been awhile since we have been in the South Pacific but when we were we rarely saw a Hunter. We never saw one in the North Pacific offshore but there are lots of them in the Pacific Northwest, popular up there. We have just sailed from Panama to Belize and in Providencia, Colombia low and behold we saw our first Hunter and it was a 34.5 model and the owner had sailed it from Canada although he told us he motored more than he sailed, coastal hopping to the Canal. He loved his boat and planned to liveaboard in Belize. They would not be my choice for crossing oceans but many have so you can't say that they are not capable although few would argue that there are better choices for that use. Look to be a good coastal cruiser and great in Mexico and the Caribbean.


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## cb32863

Here's an idea. Seeing as this thread has degraded down to absolutely nothing to do with the original topic and people are whipping out their "man appendages" to show who's is bigger..... everyone step back from the keyboard. Take a day or two. Go visit your boat and if you can, actually go sailing. I think this thread needs a time-out..... 

DISCLAIMER: Not suggesting in anyway that anyone's freedom of speech as guaranteed by the US Constitution be restricted. (Been accused of that in the past). Or that anyone's "man appendage" is too small to be shown off.


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## guitarguy56

robert sailor said:


> One would expect that boats that are built in Florida would frequent the Caribbean and they do but while I have not been in PR I can say that in the other areas of the Caribbean Hunters are certainly there but the numbers are not all that high compared with their production runs. It's been awhile since we have been in the South Pacific but when we were we rarely saw a Hunter. We never saw one in the North Pacific offshore but there are lots of them in the Pacific Northwest, popular up there. We have just sailed from Panama to Belize and in Providencia, Colombia low and behold we saw our first Hunter and it was a 34.5 model and the owner had sailed it from Canada although he told us he motored more than he sailed, coastal hopping to the Canal. He loved his boat and planned to liveaboard in Belize. They would not be my choice for crossing oceans but many have so you can't say that they are not capable although few would argue that there are better choices for that use. Look to be a good coastal cruiser and great in Mexico and the Caribbean.


Robert... As you mentioned they are there... Yes it would not be my choice of boat to do any crossings since I'd rather do it in a more comfortable boat. That said... look at Yachtworld or Sailboat listings for Hunter sailboats currently for sale in Puerto Rico or other Caribbean areas... they're there. I'm looking more at the catamarans like the 36 foot Fontaine Evolution Mahe models. That would be a vessel I'd take to the Caribbean!

And I don't have to take out any appendages in doing so! Sorry couldn't resist!


----------



## smackdaddy

SVAuspicious said:


> I agree.
> 
> The eviction notice still strikes me as odd but I do trust my sources and the story I passed along was what I was told.
> 
> ....
> 
> The telephone lines I simply do not understand. I can think of some missteps that could cause a short outage but this lingering situation simply defies belief. I would expect even changing ownership could be done with a database change that wouldn't cause a blip at any but the most incompetent telephone company.


This is one of the main reasons I said your credibility was questionable in all this, Ausp. Remember this?



SVAuspicious said:


> There is no problem here.


What you were saying - and apparently being told by your inside sources - wasn't lining up with reality. There was most definitely a problem (and it hasn't gone away even with this sale).










Eviction notices and utilities cut-offs don't happen on their own. Even though you were apparently being told, and telling us, that everything was fine - it wasn't. IP certainly appears to have hit the skids financially. It most certainly was a problem...related to something bigger: it seems people aren't buying IPs or Blue Jackets anymore.

In light of this, this sale was very likely a fire sale. All this certainly wouldn't have been a "strategic move" for IP despite your confoundedness and the flowery language of press releases. And I'll bet the fallout isn't over - even for Hake - because the fundamental IP/Blue Jacket business problem hasn't gone away. So stay tuned.

In the end, you never really told us anything in this thread. You just kept telling us how connected you were and how you needed to respect your confidences...making it about you...while asking people here to drive by the factory to confirm things you were being told by your sources were no problem. You should have a talk with your sources, they didn't do you any favors.

Xort came through. He was right. And he didn't make a huge deal about it. Kudos to him.


----------



## uncle stinky bob

I just tried to call Island Packet again, phone is still disconnected/no longer is service. Called a West Coast Island Packet Dealer again, they have been cut off without a word from Island Packet, not answering office/dealer lines, or personal cell phones the dealer had # for, and they are as in the dark as everyone else, and not very happy at all. Put a spike in the coffin, Island Packet is done/gone/ kaput! All the other B.S. here about having an inside track and that they are fine/selling is unproven and not one word from Island Packet to say other wise. I prefer to gauge credibility on reality, not wishful thinking, telling people proof will be provided without any such thing ever shown. Pick up the phone call I.P. , call an I.P. Dealer, that's all the proof anyone living in reality should need. Too bad, so sad, nice boats.


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## SVAuspicious

xort said:


> Huh? Where did that come from? I was making a light hearted joke about not needing another flying pig and you went off on Skip without giving details. Is he a mass murderer, pedophile, power boater?


Nope. He just left debris in his wake that has made other cruisers less welcome than Skip has been. The record is there on SailNet and on the SSCA Forum.


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## jackdaw

Out of the every shrinking pool of people that are in the market for a new 35-55 foot sailboat (read: well off couples in their 50s), the percentage of people that wanted an Island Packet-style boat has shrunk to basically ZERO. Apparent IP didn't get the memo that Sabre sent out. And if you REALLY want an old-school cruiser to plow its way to where-ever, there are lots of used boats just like the one they wanted to start building when they turned off the lights and locked the door. The guys with their checkbooks out are lining up for a new Sense 50. One does have to like that fact, or even like the new boats. THEY ARE NOT BUILDING IT FOR YOU.

Just like in most business, failure to innovate it is own punishment.


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## robert sailor

There is no question that no matter the market when you build the same product year after year your biggest competitor is the boat you built 3 years ago. You can substitute boat with house/car/phone or whatever that's just a fact of life unless for some reason you have a monopoly. The big production builders are constantly changing their products in an attempt to dissatisfy you cause that's the way the game is played. Note that I did not say that they build them better I just said they change them, sometimes for the better and sometimes not so much. As far as buyers writing cheques for Benni Senses, not so sure that's lagit as you see few of those these days but I get your point.


----------



## jackdaw

robert sailor said:


> There is no question that no matter the market when you build the same product year after year your biggest competitor is the boat you built 3 years ago. You can substitute boat with house/car/phone or whatever that's just a fact of life unless for some reason you have a monopoly. The big production builders are constantly changing their products in an attempt to dissatisfy you cause that's the way the game is played. Note that I did not say that they build them better I just said they change them, sometimes for the better and sometimes not so much. As far as buyers writing cheques for Benni Senses, not so sure that's lagit as you see few of those these days but I get your point.


Good discussion!

To your first point. Only if you don't innovate. Then you compete with your old stuff.

To your second, that point is like the guy who likes 1985 Cadillacs to the new ones. 'Stronger, the old ones were....'. I've owed boats designed in the 70s', 80s', 90s, and in the 2000s. To say that the engineering and the design has not gotten better, and by orders of magnitude is simply laughable. In NO CASE was the older boat 'better' in any real way. If you disagree, I'd like to know the list the boats you have owned that make you think that way.

As to your Sense point, I recall their being over a year wait for a Sense a while back. Maybe that has tailed off a bit, but I've seen more of them on a recent casual dock walk than I will in a lifetime of looking for BJ40s. Or IP Esteros for that matter.


----------



## robert sailor

Yes I agree with you, innovate I guess is a reasonable word to use. As to better, yes in many ways but still polyester fg which is as old as the hills. Some folks might think full liners are not better built but each has their own opinion. Keels bolted on to the stub less hull seem to be OK although 2 Benni 40.7 might not agree but all in all on average I would agree with you but I wouldn't use a fancy word like magnitudes better as I'm not convinced that is deserving. Personally I like many of the new boats both cats and monos. I've only owned 6 sailboats over the years so don't have as many opinions as some others who have owned many more.


----------



## Minnewaska

I wish Hake/IPY/Blue Jacket, as well as their loyal customers, all the best. They are US brands, with an indisputable niche following, and I would like to see them succeed, whether they make a product I personally want or not. 

Good luck!


----------



## colemj

Lazerbrains said:


> Sailing to S. America is coastal sailing.


Sailing back, however...

I think you over-estimate the typical trans-oceanic passage, say Mexico to Fiji, particularly when comparing it to a Panama to Grenada passage, for example.

Mark


----------



## Pamlicotraveler

Those who feel vindicated by the announcement of the Island Packet purchase are way misguided.

This whole thing has the signs of a desperation sale, much like Wachovia or Bear Stearns during the financial crisis. This is not some marriage to develop the brands. *Nobody sells their company by first destroying the brand's reputation* among loyal owners and prospective buyers by disconnecting their phones or by having an eviction notice posted at their door. That is not some crazy local government action - it is a sign of no liquidity. The company was going out of business. Period.

The sale of Island Packet was a desperation move, similar to bankruptcy, and the whole reason for purchasing those assets was likely an effort to save the Seaward brand since the molds had been shipped to Traditional Watercraft only a year ago.

There have been some posers on this thread, people who desperately want to feel like insiders that others need to rely on and trust for information. That part of participating on a web forum is more a game than it is a learning opportunity. There wasn't any inside knowledge, and there wasn't any vindication of those predictions.


----------



## SVAuspicious

colemj said:


> I think you over-estimate the typical trans-oceanic passage, say Mexico to Fiji, particularly when comparing it to a Panama to Grenada passage, for example.


Crossing oceans is just going for a day sail and forgetting to go home.

I shouldn't have to say this, but apparently I do (not to you Mark - I know you get it). Crossing oceans isn't hard. You have to be prepared. No one else is going to forecast weather for you. No one is going to tell you what food to buy. You are out on your own and are responsible for yourself. You have to understand the weather and ocean currents. You don't have to be Frank Bohlen or Chris Parker but you do have to have a grip.

You have to understand that sometimes the rhumb line or Great Circle are not the fastest most efficient passage plan.

Get out of your chair and go sailing.


----------



## Minnewaska

Pamlicotraveler said:


> ...The sale of Island Packet was a desperation move, similar to bankruptcy, and the whole reason for purchasing those assets was likely an effort to save the Seaward brand.......


Talk about posing. Do you actually know what you claimed to be true? We all know what it looks like, but you're stating your facts pretty definitively.


----------



## Pamlicotraveler

Minnewaska said:


> Talk about posing. Do you actually know what you claimed to be true? We all know what it looks like, but you're stating your facts pretty definitively.


No, I am stating what is blatantly obvious. It stretches logic to believe that an eviction notice "was in place as a result of a change in leaseholder for the buildings from which IPY operates."

You don't enter a sale voluntarily this way.


----------



## Minnewaska

Pamlicotraveler said:


> No, I am stating what is blatantly obvious. It stretches logic to believe that an eviction notice "was in place as a result of a change in leaseholder for the buildings from which IPY operates."
> 
> You don't enter a sale voluntarily this way.


A plausible theory that you state as obvious, just as you criticized others.

Why all the negative energy over this? Did IPY do something to harm anyone here? Why don't we want them to succeed and pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Companies have risen from the ashes many times. I hope they become one of them. I'll grant it's a steep hill, given the circumstances.


----------



## Pamlicotraveler

Minnewaska said:


> Why all the negative energy over this? Did IPY do something to harm anyone here? Why don't we want them to succeed and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.


No, of course not. I am stating what I believe happened - to me it's obvious. Why would I not want them to succeed? Maybe someone has a reason, but not me.

I personally like Island Packets a lot, but the boats I like are not what people are buying now.


----------



## Lazerbrains

colemj said:


> Sailing back, however...
> 
> I think you over-estimate the typical trans-oceanic passage, say Mexico to Fiji, particularly when comparing it to a Panama to Grenada passage, for example.
> 
> Mark


Even in the trades, it is a constant 20kts wind or better. 28 days of constant sailing in that is hard on a boat and stuff breaks and chafes and leaks on the best found boats. It's much more stress than the average boat goes through with a once-a-week, 6 hour daysail in 10kt winds.

Panama to Grenada is largely a coastal sail, never far from shore. It is not a trans-oceanic passage by any stretch of the imagination.


----------



## xort

Pamlicotraveler said:


> Those who feel vindicated by the announcement of the Island Packet purchase are way misguided.
> 
> This whole thing has the signs of a desperation sale, much like Wachovia or Bear Stearns during the financial crisis. This is not some marriage to develop the brands. *Nobody sells their company by first destroying the brand's reputation* among loyal owners and prospective buyers by disconnecting their phones or by having an eviction notice posted at their door. That is not some crazy local government action - it is a sign of no liquidity. The company was going out of business. Period.
> 
> The sale of Island Packet was a desperation move, similar to bankruptcy, and the whole reason for purchasing those assets was likely an effort to save the Seaward brand since the molds had been shipped to Traditional Watercraft only a year ago.
> 
> There have been some posers on this thread, people who desperately want to feel like insiders that others need to rely on and trust for information. That part of participating on a web forum is more a game than it is a learning opportunity. There wasn't any inside knowledge, and there wasn't any vindication of those predictions.


There are several things here that you surmise that are spot on.


----------



## Minnewaska

Interestingly, in real life, I had to search pretty hard for someone who had any idea IPY had trouble. I'm sure damage was done, but it's being exaggerated here. Even my friend, who likes the Blue Jacket, didn't know. 

For some reason, there are some haters here. I don't understand why.


----------



## Lazerbrains

Minnewaska said:


> For some reason, there are some haters here. I don't understand why.


Yeah, I don't get it either. I think some people just like to stir the $#!T cause they like the smell.


----------



## Don L

Could just be as simple as Hake buying IP because they needed a place to built their boats. Other than that I never have understood why it matters to so many what type of boat someone else likes.


----------



## Lazerbrains

SVAuspicious said:


> Crossing oceans is just going for a day sail and forgetting to go home.
> 
> I shouldn't have to say this, but apparently I do (not to you Mark - I know you get it). Crossing oceans isn't hard. You have to be prepared. No one else is going to forecast weather for you. No one is going to tell you what food to buy. You are out on your own and are responsible for yourself. You have to understand the weather and ocean currents. You don't have to be Frank Bohlen or Chris Parker but you do have to have a grip.
> 
> You have to understand that sometimes the rhumb line or Great Circle are not the fastest most efficient passage plan.


I agree to and extent - constant sailing during a long passage is much much harder on a boat than is a daysail. Stuff breaks, tears, leaks, etc. Mental state and ability to deal with problems are a large part of what it takes, and on that I will agree with you.

My earlier point was really back to boat designs. I would rather do a passage in a boat with a capsize ratio below 2, protected rudder, small cockpit, and solid ports all above the deck. I would rather daysail on a boat with a spade rudder, tall rig and big cockpit.



SVAuspicious said:


> Get out of your chair and go sailing.


Don't worry, I sail 3 days a week, and am doing a 28 day trans-oceanic passage next month.


----------



## robert sailor

Tough crowd, no one here knows exactly what happened with IP, everything here is speculation and that's entertaining for lots of folks but never start thinking that your right about something when you know very little of the actual goings on of this change.


----------



## Faster

Folks... this thread drifted into a good discussion on coastal vs ocean sailing... those posts (and the continuing discussion, hopefully) can now be found here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruis...8985-trans-ocean-vs-coastal-discussion-2.html

Out... because of the chronology you're the 'OP'... hope you don't mind..


----------



## rostyvyg

robert sailor said:


> Tough crowd, no one here knows exactly what happened with IP, everything here is speculation and that's entertaining for lots of folks but never start thinking that your right about something when you know very little of the actual goings on of this change.


I and my wife needed some parts for our Island Packet 420. We were in St. Petersburg on occasion so we went to the factory and besides being able to purchase all necessary proprietary parts for a 17 years old boat (!) were given a full tour of the factory. Glad to attest that although downsized during earlier transition the production is rapidly ramping up. Most of the experienced employees have been retained, new workers are being trained, the construction methods have not changed and attention to detail is beyond reproach. They build three lines of boats now - smaller day-sailing trailerable Seaward, performance oriented Blue Jacket and traditional Island Packet. They also have a program of refitting older Island Packets which in my opinion trumps doing so elsewhere both cost wise and quality wise. I sincerely hope they will come up with new 40" and 45" LOA models (their lineup is currently missing midsize yachts) and that they will retain all good qualities of IP380 and IP420 which still make those older boats so desirable.

BTW, If anyone is interested, Leslie and Darrell, owners of Hake Marine, the parent of Island Packet Yachts will soon be hosting a factory rendezvous! This will be held March 15-17, 2018 in Largo/St. Petersburg at St. Petersburg Yacht Club, 11 Central Ave, St. Petersburg, FL 33701. Come over, see for yourself and have all your questions answered:


----------



## mstern

rostyvyg said:


> I and my wife needed some parts for our Island Packet 420. We were in St. Petersburg on occasion so we went to the factory and besides being able to purchase all necessary proprietary parts for a 17 years old boat (!) were given a full tour of the factory. Glad to attest that although downsized during earlier transition the production is rapidly ramping up. Most of the experienced employees have been retained, new workers are being trained, the construction methods have not changed and attention to detail is beyond reproach. They build three lines of boats now - smaller day-sailing trailerable Seaward, performance oriented Blue Jacket and traditional Island Packet. They also have a program of refitting older Island Packets which in my opinion trumps doing so elsewhere both cost wise and quality wise. I sincerely hope they will come up with new 40" and 45" LOA models (their lineup is currently missing midsize yachts) and that they will retain all good qualities of IP380 and IP420 which still make those older boats so desirable.
> 
> BTW, If anyone is interested, Leslie and Darrell, owners of Hake Marine, the parent of Island Packet Yachts will soon be hosting a factory rendezvous! This will be held March 15-17, 2018 in Largo/St. Petersburg at St. Petersburg Yacht Club, 11 Central Ave, St. Petersburg, FL 33701. Come over, see for yourself and have all your questions answered:


Good to see them doing well. If I win the lottery, it's the Seaward 32RK for me. Wish me luck.


----------



## StarwindMango

Did you get any feel for the status of the Hake/Seaward boats? We toured their plant a couple years ago (2016?) and were very impressed with the hospitality and quality of work we saw. At that time, it was rumored Hake would build a 19 foot retractable keel, similar to the 26RK. I don't think that ever happened, but hopefully the rest of the line is still being built.


----------



## SHNOOL

Walked all over Hull number 1 (Seaward 26RK) at the boat show in Oct... built in the joint plant. Build quality was impressive.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Breeze

Is the facility open for tours anytime? We will be in Tampa in a few weeks and I would enjoy a tour of the facility if it is open on the weekends.


----------



## mstern

SailingUphill said:


> Walked all over Hull number 1 (Seaward 26RK) at the boat show in Oct... built in the joint plant.


Have they started numbering the Seaward hulls from scratch now that the Seawards are built at the IPY plant? Makes it sound like IPY saved Seaward ("now building Seaward boats at the IPY plant") when the financial reality seems to have been the opposite. Sort of ironic....


----------



## smackdaddy

SailingUphill said:


> Walked all over Hull number 1 (Seaward 26RK) at the boat show in Oct... built in the joint plant. Build quality was impressive.


Thank goodness someone finally listened to Brent Swain on those companionway doors.


----------



## rostyvyg

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> Is the facility open for tours anytime?


Call the factory ahead of time. Ask for Adam Beattie (Sales Manager). If you are flexible he will find time to show you the facility. He is super nice and very accommodating. He is also very instrumental when someone needs to research the history of a specific hull, get drawings, part numbers or order parts.


----------



## sailforlife

Shame always wanted one great well built boats. 

RIP....

:ship-captain::ship-captain:


----------



## rostyvyg

mstern said:


> Makes it sound like IPY saved Seaward ("now building Seaward boats at the IPY plant") when the financial reality seems to have been the opposite. Sort of ironic....


From whatever I understood while researching the issue before buying my IP420 the factory put themselves in a corner because they eventually started competing with their own older boats.

The build quality and construction methods are such that the used Island Packets after holding tank replacements look, feel, sail and provide living accommodations as good as as their new yachts and, in many instances, much better then new boats of other manufacturers. The deck is cored with synthetic material and never gets soft. The hull is solid fiberglass. Deck to hull joint is totally bomb proof - they use machine screws and nuts as opposed to the majority of other boat builders. Their proprietary gelcoat does not chalk and exhibit no crazing after 25+ years. They use solid teak for cabinetry. All doors are louvered for ventilation. Lockers have cedar lining. Tankage is huge and low in the hull below the cabin sole, adding to stability and proper trim. This also leaves enormous stowage room everywhere else on those boats. Draft is under 5" which makes it Bahamas friendly. Mast height lets them fit under all ICW bridges (well, except of one). Prop and rudder are protected. Smaller models got reputation of being slow in light air. Nothing a Code 0 can't solve, though. Models over 40" are faster and pure joy to sail. The hull shape makes IP's gently part water as opposed to newer flat bottom boats slamming into waves.

So, to stop competing with their own older models the factory shifted to making larger and pricier yachts. Then 2008 came and no one was able to afford to buy them. The rest is history. Now it seems the factory started focusing on smaller models again and Seaward design fits their current needs very well. It is a very nice small go anywhere boat. So the marriage of convenience might become a love affair. I hope they would come up with a new and improved IP380, though. That would be an ultimate modern age bluewater long distance cruiser.

Anyway, wishing them Good Luck and Godspeed...


----------



## smackdaddy

rostyvyg said:


> Deck to hull joint is totally bomb proof - they use machine screws and nuts as opposed to the majority of other boat builders.
> 
> Their proprietary gelcoat does not chalk and exhibit no crazing after 25+ years.
> 
> The hull shape makes IP's gently part water as opposed to newer flat bottom boats slamming into waves....












Nothing really wrong with IPs, per se, but let's not get carried away.


----------



## StarwindMango

I agree, the build quality of the 26RK I went on at the factory was impressive for a smallish "transportable" boat. They're freakin' expensive though!

Of course...if you compare a 28 ft. LOA sailboat price to a new 28 ft. LOA offshore center console powerboat, the sailboat price starts to look better!

Regardless of the price, I hope Seaward sticks around. If they ever do make a smaller boat (19/20/21 RK?) my father has expressed interest in a new one. The 26 RK is a little bigger than he wants and on the edge of the budget but a smaller RK makes lots of sense.


----------



## StarwindMango

smackdaddy said:


> Thank goodness someone finally listened to Brent Swain on those companionway doors.


I have a love-hate relationship with companionway doors like this. Normal hatch boards (wash boards, etc.) are a PIA to deal with in general, but they don't take up that nice aft cabin-trunk space where people like to lean. Swinging doors are easy to enter/exit but they look tacky when open and waste a lot of space on a small boat.


----------



## Minnewaska

rostyvyg said:


> .....I hope they would come up with a new and improved IP380, though. That would be an ultimate modern age bluewater long distance cruiser...


Would that be the BlueJacket line they were trying to launch a few years back. Not my cup of tea, but I saw one at the New England Boat show and thought it was nicely done. Lost track of what happened to them, as I've never seen one since.


----------



## mstern

rostyvyg said:


> From whatever I understood while researching the issue before buying my IP420 the factory put themselves in a corner because they eventually started competing with their own older boats.
> 
> Anyway, wishing them Good Luck and Godspeed...


This has been an issue with the entire fiberglass boat industry since its inception; it is not limited to IPY. Every manufacturer since Pearson brought out the Triton has been competing with their own products. Unlike their wooden counterparts, a five-year old fiberglass boat, even if only marginally maintained, will look almost new. Once a sufficient stock of boats was available on the used boat market, it became a lot harder to sell new boats.

Car makers were able to counter this problem by developing the "model year" concept, changing the look (if not the substance) of their products yearly; but they have always had the advantage over boats of being able to deal with the costs of those changes through the economies of scale. Boat makers who struggle to put out 20 or 30 of the same model per year just don't have the ability to that. The big boys (Catalina, Bristol, Pearson, C&C) chose to address the problem by developing new models when there was a significant development in design (fin keels/spade rudders; plumb bows; sugar scoop sterns; hull chines). As we've seen, sometimes, that's not enough to stay in business.

I don't know the whys and wherefores of IPY's story. They clearly moved away from their early, smaller models to bigger yachts; but then, so did most manufacturers. IPY has always been a small niche within the small niche of sailboats designed to cruise: heavy, full keel, traditional looking, high-end but not "luxurious", expensive. They were obviously successful as they had decades of continuous operation; but I doubt they were ever really profitable, and I find it hard to believe that the market for used IPY's hurt them any more than it has hurt other manufacturers. My guess: their tiny slice of the pie was dealt a vicious blow by the Great Recession, and they never financially recovered.

No judgments here; I've never sailed on one, but I really like the IPY designs and the philosophy behind them. At one point, the Estero was my favorite design among cruising yachts. I too wish them the best of good fortune; I hope the recent acquisition gives them the financial stability they need to survive and thrive.


----------



## rostyvyg

mstern said:


> My guess: their tiny slice of the pie was dealt a vicious blow by the Great Recession, and they never financially recovered.
> 
> I too wish them the best of good fortune; I hope the recent acquisition gives them the financial stability they need to survive and thrive.


Well, the paradox is - if a couple of young wealthy professionals wants to take a sabbatical or an older couple wants to sell their home and retire cruising around the world there are none modern affordable new sailboats on the market that fit the bill. No one disses Catalinas, Hunters, Beneteaus, jenneaus, etc, - they just have a different crowd in sights. They cater to daysailers, wannabe racers, charter companies. Pretty much no one builds currently a sea kindly (albeit slower) full keel sailboat with a protected rudder, snug safe cockpit, plenty handholds below, useful galley, great stowage, big tankage, pre-wired and pre-plumbed for cruising gear. Island Packet is a rare manufacturer who has an ability to fulfill this need without even trying too hard. All they have to do is continue following their tradition. Considering that more and more people can work remotely and want to escape the rat race they might recover just fine.


----------



## smackdaddy

rostyvyg said:


> Well, the paradox is - if a couple of young wealthy professionals wants to take a sabbatical or an older couple wants to sell their home and retire cruising around the world there are none modern affordable new sailboats on the market that fit the bill. No one disses Catalinas, Hunters, Beneteaus, jenneaus, etc, - they just have a different crowd in sights. They cater to daysailers, wannabe racers, charter companies.














rostyvyg said:


> Pretty much no one builds currently a sea kindly (albeit slower) full keel sailboat with a protected rudder, snug safe cockpit, plenty handholds below, useful galley, great stowage, big tankage, pre-wired and pre-plumbed for cruising gear.


I certainly have nothing against IPs as I've said, but your statements are definitely very short-sighted. And I'm certain you're not "hating" on any of these boats (which doesn't happen on forums apprently) - but you really should do a bit more research. Perhaps you should look into some of my wildly popular sentiments on the matter.

In any case, IP is gone. For a perfectly valid reason. No one bought their boats. That's just the reality of it. And they are not the only ones.


----------



## mstern

smackdaddy said:


> I certainly have nothing against IPs as I've said, but your statements are definitely very short-sighted. And I'm certain you're not "hating" on any of these boats (which doesn't happen on forums apprently) - but you really should do a bit more research. Perhaps you should look into some of my wildly popular sentiments on the matter.
> 
> In any case, IP is gone. For a perfectly valid reason. No one bought their boats. That's just the reality of it. And they are not the only ones.


Actually, IP is not gone. They were acquired by Hake Yachts, the builders of Seaward Yachts. IP, Blue Jacket and Seaward yachts are now all being built at the IP facility in Florida.

But Smack is right; despite Rostyvyg's obvious admiration for the brand, not enough people agree: IP was in financial difficulty because not enough people bought their product. Most sailors do not want a full keel, heavy displacement boat. There are benefits to be sure, but it seems that there is an ever-decreasing number of sailors who are willing to plunk down that much money for what is essentially a 50 year old design. Granted, IP has made refinements to the architecture, and they certainly use more modern materials and construction techniques. But at base, this is a boat that would look right at home in the 1960's. Except for that godawful gelcoat color. Will someone please explain that to me?


----------



## colemj

rostyvyg said:


> Deck to hull joint is totally bomb proof - they use machine screws and nuts as opposed to the majority of other boat builders.


I've never understood why people think this type of hull joint design is a good one - it is certainly anything but bomb-proof, and is probably the second-worse way to make that joint, besting only the low-quality pop-rivet group. I think it has to do more with years of advertising it as "good" than actual design engineering.

Our deck/hull joint is laid together with adhesive between the flanges, then fully glassed inside and out with 2 layers of 3608 biaxial fabric overlapping the joint 6" on each side. Now that is bomb-proof because it is essentially now a monocoque structure with the entire boat.

I think Amel and several other catamaran manufacturers also do it this way. Maybe many builders do this now, but I don't keep track of things like this.

Machine screws and nuts makes me think fragile, and leaky...

Mark


----------



## rostyvyg

mstern said:


> Except for that godawful gelcoat color. Will someone please explain that to me?


Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some people like the ivory color, others dislike it.. But it helps to quickly find the boat in a crowded anchorage.



mstern said:


> ...who are willing to plunk down that much money for what is essentially a 50 year old design.


IPs aren't floating condos or light-air rockets by any stretch, but look closely at the hull shapes and you'll see they're considerably more modern than most traditional full-keel alternatives.

Anyway, we are getting off topic. No one boat fits all. But the factory is open after ownership has changed and they are still building quality yachts.


----------



## smackdaddy

Have you seen Bob Perry's new carbon full-keelers? If full-keelers have a future, this is it.


----------



## RegisteredUser

If wood doors are sticking/catching/ect it may be due to wood swelling..or frame/door attachment shifting.

You can easily plane 'sticky' areas. 
In the old days, everybody planed their doors...


----------



## Lazerbrains

I went aboard a largish IP last year at the boat show - 55' center cockpit. 
Beautiful boat, and probably one of the nicest cockpits you could spend time in during a long crossing.
The hull had a custom paint job (navy blue) to cover the baby-vomit color they normally use.

It was obviously designed as a passage-maker. However, several prospective buyers were walking off shaking their heads.
When I went aboard I immediately saw why - it was like a dance-floor inside with no handholds - I tried to imagine how you would get around while heeled and I couldn't other than crawling along the floor. Boat was quite expensive also - north of 1 mil.

BTW - long keeled boats are hardly out of style among cruisers. Go to any of the cruising grounds in the S. Pacific and you will see a preponderance of them. The difference is it is at the price IPs are, it is less expensive to pick up a used Hans Christian/Baba/Westsail/Whatever and re-oputfit it - and many feel they have a better boat than an IP


----------



## paulinnanaimo

Mr. Perry's boats are superb and although I didn't see any reference to price in his posts, I'm sure that I am not alone in not being able to afford one...not in this lifetime anyway.


----------



## SHNOOL

mstern said:


> Have they started numbering the Seaward hulls from scratch now that the Seawards are built at the IPY plant? Makes it sound like IPY saved Seaward ("now building Seaward boats at the IPY plant") when the financial reality seems to have been the opposite. Sort of ironic....


I didn't actually look at the hull number... the salesperson was calling it "hull #1" I doubt they renumbered them.

This model has been in my sights for years. Not because I think its a bluewater cruiser, but because I was interested in trailerable, cruiser that is modern, easy to launch and retrieve. I was impressed with what I saw. its not a Pacific Seacraft of course.


----------



## TakeFive

smackdaddy said:


> ...In any case, IP is gone. For a perfectly valid reason. No one bought their boats. That's just the reality of it. And they are not the only ones.


For someone with a major chip on his shoulder about any perceived slight toward the sailboat company formerly known as Hunter, I can only laugh at the irony of your insensitive comment. IP is no more "gone" than the Marlow-Hunter Yachts that you so idolize.

Wikipedia claims that as of a couple years ago Marlow-Hunter was building 20 yachts a year. Have they broken into triple digits yet? lol


----------



## smackdaddy

TakeFive said:


> For someone with a major chip on his shoulder about any perceived slight toward the sailboat company formerly known as Hunter, I can only laugh at the irony of your insensitive comment. IP is no more "gone" than the Marlow-Hunter Yachts that you so idolize.
> 
> Wikipedia claims that as of a couple years ago Marlow-Hunter was building 20 yachts a year. Have they broken into triple digits yet? lol


You know, various angry puppies who follow me around SN from thread to thread keep trying to say I "idolize" Hunter. I don't. I never have. I just love boats. And I care about what's true and what's not - and I'm willing and able to inform myself as to where that factual line is. As I've pointed out countless times here and elsewhere, it's simply the wildly false claims about Hunters (and other boats - even IPs) made by the ignorant that I typically (and compellingly) contest.

This doesn't prove me an idolator. It just proves them wrong. No irony required. Yet, I've found that if they have an open mind and are willing to consider facts, they are typically thankful for the information and we have a grand old time learning together. Otherwise, they typically growl...adorably so.

I believe I've corrected you a couple of times in the recent past, TakeFive...which might explain why you're still following me around nipping at my heels with this post of yours. Do you really want to discuss *the subject at hand*? Or do you just want to growl at me? Remember, I typically respond to people in the same tone they engage me. So it's up to you.

In any case, you'll notice I don't follow you and the other members of The Puppy Posse around. I just can't be bothered. Are the others on their way too? Maybe you guys can get this thread locked as well. Who knows?

In any case I stand by exactly what I said - "sensitive" or not. IP went down the tubes because no one was buying their boats...a perfectly logical and valid reason for a business' demise. And Hunter went down the tubes for exactly the same reason.

However, there _is_ nuance here - which seems difficult for you. Hunter was *FAR, FAR* more innovative over its life-span than was IP. Of that there is really no question. And Hunter's boats, in terms of price and features, appealed to a far bigger niche of modern cruisers than did IP. So, the question is - why? Why did *both* US brands end up on the fire-sale heap with these very clear differences? I think I've made the answer to that very clear over the past few years in several forms of valuable and educational media.

As for Hunter and IP not really being gone - whatever you say. Now get out there and make Herb Alpert proud.

PS - I've also made it very clear that I'm not a fan of the new Marlow-Hunter direction. And I have my strong doubts that M-H will survive. So, yet again, you're wrong. Please keep up if you're going to engage.


----------



## mstern

rostyvyg said:


> Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some people like the ivory color, others dislike it.. But it helps to quickly find the boat in a crowded anchorage.
> 
> IPs aren't floating condos or light-air rockets by any stretch, but look closely at the hull shapes and you'll see they're considerably more modern than most traditional full-keel alternatives.
> 
> Anyway, we are getting off topic. No one boat fits all. But the factory is open after ownership has changed and they are still building quality yachts.


Rosty, you own a 420? How long have you had her? Did you buy her new or used? I've always loved the looks of the IP boats (other than the gelcoat color, as I may have mentioned; ahem), and I love the build quality. But since I don't expect to ever do long-distance voyaging, they've never really been a bucket list item. However, I'm curious: is the boat better or worse than you expected?


----------



## smackdaddy

I'm curious - does ANYONE know someone who has purchased one of the newer models being pushed?










I look at the marekting photos of the flagship 525 (which at $699K is actually less than I thought it would be considering IP's past pricing) and not only does it have the legacy look of an 80's era boat, but the interior doesn't seem to have much in the way of the traditional "blue water boat" wants and needs often bandied about. What exactly IS the market for this boat?


----------



## smackdaddy

Ah, well this may explain the pricing. Hake, which purchased IP when this thread was going, was itself acquired by another group in February 2017 - Suncoast Yachts...

https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/industry-news/hake-marine-has-new-owners

And they did this...



> Their first action was to roll back prices on the Island Packet models to 2008 levels and they also have reduced prices on Seaward models. This is possible because of a streamlined facility, good standing with vendors and a strong financial position.


And then this...


> "We are committed to working with our dealers and clients in creating a semicustom boat that meets each buyer's unique wants and needs,"


So, it sounds like they have the molds and will modify the interior for you. At least the prices are getting somewhat closer to competing with production boats. But you have to want an "older" new boat to go this "semi-custom" route.

Who knows - maybe they can make it work. That seems to be what Marlow-Hunter is trying at a lower-end level.


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## paulinnanaimo

Regarding the colour of IP boats. It puzzles me that there are so many boaters that are justifiably proud of their craft because it has a beautiful sheer, or a balanced profile, or perhaps a unique rig, but has the same boring white hull as 20 million other boats...these same persons are knocking a craft with a varied colour which is a great thing in my opinion. It may not be the prettiest flavour, but it is not white...that, to me, is a plus.


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## colemj

smackdaddy said:


> Hunter was *FAR, FAR* more innovative over its life-span than was IP. Of that there is really no question.


I think you short-changed IP in this statement. Granted, I think Hunter pushed innovation more, but IP wasn't standing still in the past. They did a pretty good job within their niche innovating a heavy, round bilge, full keel boat into something with a bit more performance by splitting the rudder off in a unique way, designing a "full foil keel" (yes, I know that is mostly marketing, but there was an attempt there to get away from a uselessly stalling full keel), and the Hoyt jib boom - for a couple of examples. Then there is the forgotten PacketCat attempt. Maybe not a sterling moment in their history given hindsight, but it was unique and contained some outside-the-box thinking and design.

I think the reality for all of these manufacturers was that people buying new boats are lured by either catamarans or larger manufacturers that can drive prices down through subsidies, scale, and automation. For sure, IP's design criteria are no longer relevant to any but a very, very few boat buyers (and they have better options), but Hunter failed by not being able to compete with multihulls and large European companies.

People are still buying new boats - all catamaran manufacturers are back-ordered 2 years and new companies, brands, and models of catamarans are coming to market at a pace so fast I can't keep up with them. AFAIK, Bene, Jene, Dufour and the like are selling as fast as they are made.

So one can lament the demise of boat designs that had large rice and bean holds, and can lie ahull in hurricanes, and can be dragged across rocks, and had attachment points every 6" to tie oneself down with, etc. But it is a disingenuous lament unless one is also plopping their money where their mouth is on a new boat. Otherwise, there is no market for these things.

Mark


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## smackdaddy

Fair enough Mark. You do make a good point with your listing of those IP innovations...and even this thing...










And I seem to recall that IP was also using the glued-in-modular-liner/grid approach to construction in their more recent boats, similar to the mass produced brands (I think it's somewhere in this thread or another)...EDIT: here it is as listed on their site for the 525...



> Molded structural interior grid unit bonded with hull and interior bulkhead system to form unified structure.


So - I'll take one of those two "FAR"s off for IP. Heh. I can attest after being on one that the joinery quality and detail is absolutely incredible. They beat Hunters all to hell in that arena.

PS - The Hoyt boom is one of those things that make a lot of sense on the surface, but doesn't seem to be a great idea in real everyday use. I remember RAN sailing got rid of theirs after it broke pretty early on in their travels. To me it's like the permanent whisker poles (or whatever they call them) on the Amels. Again - handy, but kind of bulky at the same time.

PSS - Back to the comments above about the hull/deck joint, this is what they are doing now with the 525...



> One-piece deck attached to integral hull flange with bolts, lock nuts and urethane adhesive sealant. Hardware backed with aluminum plates where required.


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## TakeFive

paulinnanaimo said:


> Regarding the colour of IP boats. It puzzles me that there are so many boaters that are justifiably proud of their craft because it has a beautiful sheer, or a balanced profile, or perhaps a unique rig, but has the same boring white hull as 20 million other boats...these same persons are knocking a craft with a varied colour which is a great thing in my opinion. It may not be the prettiest flavour, but it is not white...that, to me, is a plus.


I'm not a fan of the IP cream color. But if that color results from a truly proprietary gelcoat chemistry that maintains its shine for decades without chalking for 25+ years in the sun, that could overcome any aesthetic concerns I would have. I'd think this would be especially true for tropical cruisers where the UV exposure is especially overwhelming.

The only problem is that I've never seen any facts to back up this claim about IP having superior proprietary gelcoat chemistry. And I don't have enough skin in the game to look for myself - I want to be spoon-fed. So for @rostyvyg, I'd be very interested in seeing a patent citation, comparative test result (along the lines of Practical Sailor), or some other sign that IP's gelcoat is truly novel vs. competition.

I'm not looking to diss IP here. Boats are a personal thing and those who own them tend to like the designer/manufacturer of their own boat, so making incendiary exaggerations like "they went out of business because _*no one*_ was buying their boats" is trolling, plain and simple. It's bad form to do that on any boat owner's forum.


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## smackdaddy

You know, as I'm looking into this more - it's pretty interesting. Here is a recent video of the current building process being used at the FL factory...






(Note: The couple in the video work for Sun Coast Yachts - the new owner of IP,)

That Seaward 26 above is also in the vid (looks like that's what's in most of the build shots).

At about 3:20 you can see the Sun Coast/IP owner, Darrell Allen, point out the synthetic "Coosa" board. Listen to what he tells them.."you can't get this on a used IP - if you want the latest and greatest...updating with more modern building materials".

So, with the price drop and this kind of marketing it looks like they are trying to tackle the issue of competing with their own used boats.

At around 6:50 the 29-year employee makes a critical point (and unfortunately highlights the real challenge for IP) - that the younger demographic is key to the future.

The incredible joinery is shown at about 7:30.

At around 9:00 they show the hole at the top of the rudder for emergency steering (pretty cool). And at 9:20 the fiberglassing using chopped-strand.

They do put a lot of care into these boats. I wish them well.


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## colemj

TakeFive said:


> The only problem is that I've never seen any facts to back up this claim about IP having superior proprietary gelcoat chemistry.


That is because there is no "proprietary" gelcoat. IP does not, and never has, manufactured gelcoat. The companies that make gelcoat may make a "proprietary" color, but not a base gel coat. IP may use higher quality gelcoat than some (I don't know), but it certainly isn't unique to them.



TakeFive said:


> I'm not looking to diss IP here. Boats are a personal thing and those who own them tend to like the designer/manufacturer of their own boat, so making incendiary exaggerations like "they went out of business because _*no one*_ was buying their boats" is trolling, plain and simple. It's bad form to do that on any boat owner's forum.


I think you are a bit sensitive on this. Of course that statement wasn't meant literally that they ended up without a single order (although that may actually be true - do you know it isn't?), but that the number of people buying them was so small as to equate to "no one" in terms of making a business operable. If they indeed ended up with no orders, then that means "no one" is buying them.

Either way, it is the same thing with the same end result.

Mark


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## TakeFive

colemj said:


> ...I think you are a bit sensitive on this. Of course that statement wasn't meant literally that they ended up without a single order...


Please see my PM response.


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## colemj

smackdaddy said:


> So - I'll take one of those two "FAR"s off for IP.


That is all I was hoping for. I don't know why everyone thinks you are unreasonable.

I didn't mean to imply that IP was a highly innovative company - only that within the niche they stuck themselves, they did do some noodling and experimentation. More so than their contemporaries in that niche like Cabo Rico, Tayana, Westsail, Hans Christian, etc.



smackdaddy said:


> PS - The Hoyt boom is one of those things that make a lot of sense on the surface, but doesn't seem to be a great idea in real everyday use. I remember RAN sailing got rid of theirs after it broke pretty early on in their travels. To me it's like the permanent whisker poles (or whatever they call them) on the Amels. Again - handy, but kind of bulky at the same time.


I like the concept of the Hoyte boom. We have something similar called a camberspar that is a half-wishbone spar slid into a pocket in the sail (there is a bit more technicality than that). Freedom, Manta, and Endeavor (catamarans) used them, but they didn't catch on. It is brilliant - self vanging, perfect shape, self-tacking, able to go wing-wing up to 90* by the lee easily and without twisting off. It's downside is that it is by design a small sail (the spar needs to clear the mast) so it runs out of power for windward work. Also, there are (few) times when it would be nice to just roll out a headsail when only going a short distance, instead of raising a sail on a halyard and then dropping it shortly after.

The Hoyt boom seems like it would have the same advantages and limitations, with the exception that it can be used as a furler. It looks like engineering of the boat fitting and build would be critical because of the stresses, so if it broke on a boat, it may not have been the fault of the Hoyt boom itself.

Mark


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## Don L

Far as I’m concerned IP is just an Endevour with lipstick. But it doesn’t brother me if someone wants to kiss one.


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## smackdaddy

I was looking at the Seaward 26 (at $98K)...










...compared to something like the Beneteau Oceanis 31 (at $123K)...










- or even the First 25 (at $72K)..










Now, for price and aesthetics, I know which direction I would go. But as for marketing, poor Seaward just can't help but repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot. I especially love this sequence in their gallery...









Man: "C'mon honey, of course Seawards are built for open ocean! Let's do this!"









Man: "Oh, just keep our course. What, are you scared of a little chop?"









Man: "Okay, maybe it's a little rougher than I thought. But this is a SEAWARD! So go seaward woman!"









Skipperette: "Thank goodness that idiot finally went overboard. I'm going back to the marina for a chardonnay."


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## mstern

Seawards are certainly not everyone's cup of rum; the extra costs inherent in making and installing a retractable keel, and fitting out the boat a cut above a Beneteau-style coastal cruiser aren't worth it for everyone. Seawards do cost more than their comparable-sized cousins; but IMHO, you get a "better" boat. 

I'm not a huge fan of the 26RK; the "luxury overnighter" concept just doesn't resonate with me. The 32RK is my jam; it just hits me. I love the look, I love the RK, I love the layout, both on the deck and below. And let's face it, if you're going to be laying out that kind of cash, you gotta love the boat; this is not supposed to be an exercise in logic (at least not completely....).


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## rostyvyg

Wow, this discussion really heated up. Come on, people, let's stay on the topic...


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## rostyvyg

I think that there is a lot misunderstanding about Island Packet boats, about the factory, about the designer and about their philosophy in general. Read this less known interview with Bob Johnson and maybe some information will surprise you:

Good Old Boat - Oct. 2004 Island Packet Interview


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## Minnewaska

I bet I made this point hundreds of posts ago, but I'm not going to try to find it. 

Island Packet is not a contemporary design, but it definitely has a following. I would even say a cult following. Some people have a hard time understanding what other's actually like, especially if it's not the current trend. 

It's true, they are not selling enough new boats (relatively cheap, with 5 yr thru hulls, is what is selling new). I will offer the theory that they build such a solid product and have sold so many over the years, the cult can find quality used product that has stood up much longer than many other brands. I'm saying overall, not everything about them. Planned obsolescence was not their business model and it may be biting them now. 

I'm not trying to sell or defend IP, they're not my cup of tea. For their niche, they're highly desirable.


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## Caribbeachbum

smackdaddy said:


> I was looking at the Seaward 26 (at $98K)...
> 
> ...compared to something like the Beneteau Oceanis 31 (at $123K)...
> 
> - or even the First 25 (at $72K)..
> 
> .../QUOTE]
> 
> I don't know what would be a fair comparison, but I don't think this is one. If you try to use the Seaward for what the First is designed for, you end up with people pointing at the Seaward and laughing as the First disappears over the horizon. But if you try to use the First for what the Seaward was designed for, people are soon pointing at the First and laughing as the towboat tries to free it from the mud.
> 
> I've never sailed either of them, so my comments aren't worth much. Even so, I've been aboard a exemplar of each at a boat show. I don't know if it's actually built better, but the Seaward had a nicer fit and finish to it than the Beneteau.


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## Arcb

I don't see how a Seaward 26 rk is in any way competing with the two Beneteaus listed above. I would say it might be in competition with something like the TES Magnam or 720. Not the same ballpark as a 31 foot Oceanis, not even the same game. Entirely different market, entirely different purpose.

TES 28 Magnam ? Tes-Yacht

Tes 678 Bt-Tes 720 ? Tes-Yacht


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## rostyvyg

colemj said:


> That is because there is no "proprietary" gelcoat. IP does not, and never has, manufactured gelcoat. The companies that make gelcoat may make a "proprietary" color, but not a base gel coat. IP may use higher quality gelcoat than some (I don't know), but it certainly isn't unique to them.
> Mark


I beg to disagree. Island Packet at one time acquired a very innovative company that pioneered vinylester resin usage in boat manufacturing, - Arjay Industries. This is where fiberglass components and technique currently used by Island Packet came from as per Bob Johnson (Good]Good Old Boat - Welcome to Good Old Boat Magazine Old Boat - Oct. 2004 Island Packet Interview):

"...the same firm that worked for Hutchins, Arjay Industries, did glass work for us. I wound up buying the assets of that company, it was right across the street, and I brought it all over, people, equipment, everything . . . and he got out of the lamination business. Our glasswork was overdue to be brought in-house, from the standpoint of the type of control we wanted to exercise over it. Bob Cottrell, owner of Arjay Industries, was not your basic glass business owner, he was a Harvard MBA and a chemical engineer, and he took a very methodical approach to fiberglass construction. One of the things he developed was a spray core decking material that eliminates foam or balsa or plywood. You get the Oreo cookie concept of glass, lightweight filler and more glass. We won't use it on the hull because it reduces puncture and impact resistance, but it makes for a very stiff, lightweight deck. On the hull we use fiberglass, one laminate after another. We bought that technology also and brought it over as well. So we have a 10-year warranty on our deck against rot or delamination. No one else can do that, balsa and plywood core decks will eventually deteriorate. Some other companies do spray core also, but I don't know who they are; but there is a company out there that sells a similar process (ours is a home-built process, internally developed). If you buy a 15-year old Island Packet, you will not have that core material rot. It can't. It's microspheres in resin. It will be just as good as the glass around it."

Next time you walk around in a marina, - do yourself a favor. Find any 20 years old chlorox bottle boat and compare gelcoat condition to a 20 years old Island Packet. Then draw a conclusion...


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## colemj

rostyvyg said:


> I beg to disagree. Island Packet at one time acquired a very innovative company that pioneered vinylester resin usage in boat manufacturing, - Arjay Industries. This is where fiberglass components and technique currently used by Island Packet came from as per Bob Johnson (Good]Good Old Boat - Welcome to Good Old Boat Magazine Old Boat - Oct. 2004 Island Packet Interview):
> 
> "...the same firm that worked for Hutchins, Arjay Industries, did glass work for us. I wound up buying the assets of that company, it was right across the street, and I brought it all over, people, equipment, everything . . . and he got out of the lamination business. Our glasswork was overdue to be brought in-house, from the standpoint of the type of control we wanted to exercise over it. Bob Cottrell, owner of Arjay Industries, was not your basic glass business owner, he was a Harvard MBA and a chemical engineer, and he took a very methodical approach to fiberglass construction. One of the things he developed was a spray core decking material that eliminates foam or balsa or plywood. You get the Oreo cookie concept of glass, lightweight filler and more glass. We won't use it on the hull because it reduces puncture and impact resistance, but it makes for a very stiff, lightweight deck. On the hull we use fiberglass, one laminate after another. We bought that technology also and brought it over as well. So we have a 10-year warranty on our deck against rot or delamination. No one else can do that, balsa and plywood core decks will eventually deteriorate. Some other companies do spray core also, but I don't know who they are; but there is a company out there that sells a similar process (ours is a home-built process, internally developed). If you buy a 15-year old Island Packet, you will not have that core material rot. It can't. It's microspheres in resin. It will be just as good as the glass around it."
> 
> Next time you walk around in a marina, - do yourself a favor. Find any 20 years old chlorox bottle boat and compare gelcoat condition to a 20 years old Island Packet. Then draw a conclusion...


No, you are wrong about the gelcoat. Arjay Industries never manufactured gelcoat (and do not - they are still in business after being spun back out). Even your quote from that article does not mention gelcoat - just the glasswork lamination itself, the tooling, and a custom syntactic foam used for coring material (they still manufacture that syntactic foam, although it is mostly used for transom repairs).

While I agree that IP probably used a high-quality gelcoat, it was not proprietary and was available to other manufactures - some who also used it.

Before I am accused of running down IP's just because I am presenting facts, please believe that I have no beef with IP or their designs at all (I even pointed out some of their innovations above). The original 26 is one of my favorite designs.

Mark


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## sailforlife

Just saw this open house on my sail magazine today.


:captain::captain:


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## mstern

sailforlife said:


> Just saw this open house on my sail magazine today.
> 
> :captain::captain:


I think you meant to attach something or include a link here... right?


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## rostyvyg

If anything I would guess the price of the older Island Packets will go up. Look at it this way, - the factory survived and is ramping up the production but it will take a long time (if ever) for them to be able to build 2 new boats each week as they were able to do before 2008 recession. Meanwhile, they are around to provide support (parts, plans, advise, etc.) to the current boat owners and they literally go out of their way to accommodate IP owners needs. They introduced several factory refit programs (brilliant move) and are able to rebuild and restore any older IP to a like new cruising ready condition. So with lack of new Island Packets on the market if someone wants a modern full keel cruising boat their options are limited to buying a used Island Packet or buying some really old full keel yacht and spending tons of money and, most crucially, a lot of time trying to refit it to meet their needs. It's either spending money upfront (and being able to finance it) or spending time and money later (and having to pay cash for refit). 

BTW, the only way to understand what an IP is about is to spend quite some time on one in a variety of conditions. Crew on one, make a delivery, charter one for two weeks, own one ... It is really not fair to sail it for one day and draw some long reaching conclusion...


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## Eder

Every time I dingy back to my IP460 I fall in love again. At least once a week I tell my wife how lucky we were to find her. Not sure if everyone feels the same about their boats.


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## Scotty C-M

Eder said it. Love the one you're with!! (little musical reference there. :devil )

My taste runs to Catalinas, and I just happen to own one. Go figure. I've got two dock mates that have Island Packets, and they just LOVE their boats. I personally agree with a previous post that said their wife pointed out that all sailboats are slow. Boating is as much emotional as it is practical. IPs make great boats, and the idea that the factory is supporting re-fits is very smart. Hope they have a great run!!

:2 boat:


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## rostyvyg

Eder said:


> Every time I dingy back to my IP460 I fall in love again. At least once a week I tell my wife how lucky we were to find her.


At least once a week my wife tells me how lucky we were to find our IP420 ;-) I love the boat, but the fact that my wife loves her - priceless... :wink


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## TurAelin

I have not read through all 50 pages on this thread so... to try and answer the original question, I saw where on Valentines day, Feb 14th, a couple posted a video of them taking a tour of IP's factory...
"Island Packet Factory in Florida Tour for Valentines Day The Boat Life sailing adventure travel vlog"...
(I can't post links, cause "trust issues" so...) please google the above title to see the factory tour.
I cannot say definitively that this proves they have not closed, but it does prove they were in business until at least 10 days ago...

I am interested in IP's simply because they keep getting compared to the boat I actually want, the Caliber 38LRC... another yacht maker I am worried that may have closed its doors.


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## TakeFive

TurAelin said:


> I have not read through all 50 pages on this thread so... to try and answer the original question, I saw where on Valentines day, Feb 14th, a couple posted a video of them taking a tour of IP's factory...


Hopefully you read the first page, which was written two years ago. At the time it was true that IP had closed their doors. A lot has happened since then, but you'll have to read the other 49 pages. It will take you less time than a few YouTube videos. ;-)


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## TurAelin

My Apologies to all, I got the date wrong. I am new to this forum.
Will be more careful next time.

JD =/|)=


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## SeaStar58

Hake Marine in Largo builds Island Packet Yachts and is still here:

See: Island Packet Yachts | America's Cruising Choice

Real purdy!


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