# New halyard: Sta-Set or Sta-Set X?



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I am going to replace my mainsail halyard soon. Catalina specs 5/16" polyester, which is what's on there now. This time I am considering 5/16" (8 mm) Sta-Set X, but I have heard that it is stiff, which can make it difficult to pull through multiple blocks. My halyards are run to the cockpit, so in addition to the masthead block, I have a 90° turning block at the base of the mast, and another 45° cheek block to turn the line to the winch/clutch at the aft end of the cabin top. This is a bit more resistance than I would have with a winch directly on the mast, which I do not have.

For those of you who have used Sta-Set X, do you think I will have too much resistance pulling it through my turning blocks?


----------



## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

I used New England ropes VPC for halyards on my last boat and strongly preferred it to the Sta-Set-X I have on my current. The VPC was far less stiff and much more "winchable".


----------



## Irunbird (Aug 10, 2008)

VPC works really well for a halyard, but if you are splicing a shackle and leave the core exposed, it will degrade in UV. Another option (although more expensive) is something with a dyneema core like Endura Braid. It's not an issue if you don't splice or can bury the core. Or you can stick with regular Sta-set and deal with the stretch... Sta-set x is definitely stiff and "coils like wire" I'm told.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I've found that low stretch in a halyard is the most important factor. If the sail loses its shape when wind causes the halyard to stretch, it has an adverse effect. There are better alternatives to Sta-Set, more expensive but probably worth the difference in price. Amsteel, covered where it contacts the winch is a good option and less expensive than some of the other high tech line. I replaced my main halyard with 3/8" Amsteel but spliced in less expensive 12 strand for the tail section (below the winch). If you are going a long way, back to the cockpit, stretch should definitely be a consideration.

My original halyard was wire with a Sta-Set tail. The tail was a pain in the butt to coil but worked well on the winch. It also lasted a long time and I still keep it as an emergency spare. A big plus for 12 strand is its ease of splicing. I have used Amsteel for lifelines as well. It has shown no signs of UV degradation in four years.


----------



## luv4sailin (Jul 3, 2006)

I have Stay-Set X for my halyards and like it for its relatively low stretch. When I got it, Stay-Set X was the top of the line. I'd use a dyneema product if Grand Prix racing, but that is not what I do. The problem with Stay-Set X is that it is very stiff and won't coil well. It starts stiff and stays stiff. Your tuning blocks should not be an issue because you'll overpower the stiffness with the winch. But coiling it in the cockpit (or trying to coil it) will drive you nuts, and it does not run free very well when dropping sail. If I were buying again today I'd buy VPC.


----------



## Boomer14 (Jul 19, 2014)

I bought Sta-Set X to use for my spinnaker halyard, for no other reason than to try it out. I found it to be way to stiff for my taste. I think that regular Sta-Set is a good choice for a general purpose use such as halyards and sheets.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

One other consideration that I forgot to mention: my winches are Lewmar 16ST's. This is not a big boat, so the winches are small, requiring a smaller radius wrap around the winch. Obviously the halyard is smaller also (5/16"), so that helps some.

It's sounding like Sta-Set X may be more hassle than it's worth, especially when my wife is pulling the halyard.


----------



## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

I replaced my main halyard with sta-set X some time ago and found it very difficult to splice into the shackle for the main sail. Ended up using some sort of knot. It is difficult to coil as others have mentioned and I'm not sure when it's time to replace if I will go that route again.


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Mast height on a Catalina 250 is probably around 30 ft?

Add running through a couple of blocks to get to the cabin top winch maybe 35-40 ft of halyard under tension when the sail is hoisted?

Stretch on regular Sta-set is 2.8% under load, so that's 0.98 to 1.1 inch stretch under normal sailing loads. 

You're not racing the boat, Sta-set is easier to coil, easier on the hands and costs about 20% less. 

Can you detect the difference in sail shape that one inch would make?

I'd opt for something easier to handle.


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Are you only considering NE Ropes? Samson XLS Extra is a better line than Sta-Set X and is generally cheaper as well. It is low stretch, has a nice feel, and is not as stiff as Sta-Set X. It comes in about 8 different colors, which is nice for differentiating lines.

VPC is nice too. It is higher strength than XLS Extra (5/16" breaking load is 5500lbs vs 3500lbs for XLS Extra), but also higher stretch (1.25% at 10% of breaking load on VPC, vs 0.8% at 20% of breaking load on XLS Extra). You won't come close to 3500lbs of load on the main halyard on your Catalina 250, so I think XLS Extra is a better choice. They are essentially the same price.

In general I've been happier with Samson products than NE Ropes products.


----------



## FlyingJunior (May 31, 2012)

JimMcGee - 40ft = 480 inches

At 2.5% stretch, that = 12 inches. You forgot to convert feet to inches.


----------



## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

In 2005 when we bought the boat, I replaced the original halyards with StaSet-X. As reported above, it is a difficult line to splice. It's stiffness makes it weird to coil as well. I replaced the StaSet-X with VPC last year even though it was still very serviceable. VPS is a little slippery but coils nicely and isn't difficult to splice (does not use a standard yacht braid splice so go to NE ropes for the instructions). 

I've also used XLS elsewhere with good results. Personally, I think that StaSet-X was good in its day but there is much better line available now.


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

I too went with staset x when it was the go to line for halyards and I too find its stiffness problematic. I hoist at the mast and do not use a winch. The staset tx is difficult to coil and will not stay coiled with the normal twist and hang on the cleat. But the really obnoxious part is when dropping the main it will kink and jam in the cleat, slowing the process.
If I were doing it again I would either go back to wire and a soft tail, or one of the newer lines that are stronger so that you can use a smaller size thereby reducing weight and at the same time reducing stretch.
John


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Im a huge fan of wire to rope halyards...I know Im in the .000000005% but it just makes sense to me

they also are the best at dropping sails...

just sayin

Im not doing anything to my 40 year old halyards untill I get 1 to many meathooks, of which I have none so far.

I actually bought a sta set(non-x) smaller diameter halyard as a backup for my mast but honestly Im thinking of using it for something else like the travller or a new vang or something

peace


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Note that the XLS Extra that I recommended has very little in common with XLS. I think Samson's naming of this line is terrible. They don't have the same cover or core and have very different properties (XLS Extra has approximately 1/3rd of the stretch of XLS).

XLS Extra is a core dependent line with a dacron/poly cover and a dyneema/mfp hybrid core. It's cover can't be stripped and the core exposed like most other core-dependent lines (that is the primary difference between XLS Extra and the more expensive MLX). 

XLS is a pretty standard poly cover/poly core line where you use a standard double braid splice. It is competitive with Sta-Set (not X). I rarely use it unless I find a cutoff for a good price, because Samson LS has similar properties for less money.

Samson cheat sheet: (prices are for 5/16" and are from Defender)
LS($0.45) -- cheapest double braid you'd use on a boat. About 3% stretch at 20% of breaking.
XLS($0.58) -- about 10-20% stronger than LS, comes in more color options, same stretch.
XLS Extra($1.05) -- 1/3rd of the stretch of XLS, core dependent splices
MLX ($1.45) -- A little stronger than XLS, stripable cover
Warpspeed ($2.15) -- A lot stronger than MLX, full dyneema core (basically amsteel with a cover)
Ultra-Lite($1.04) -- Closest to MLX, not as strong and it floats and doesn't absorb water. A specialty line for spin sheets (not guys).

Note that strength is expressed in % stretch at % of breaking load. A 5/16" line that is twice as strong with the same stretch will have half of the stretch in practice. An example:
MLX -- 0.9% stretch at 20% of load -- 4500lbs breaking in 5/16"
Warpspeed -- 0.62% stretch at 20% of load, 0.44% stretch at 10% -- 6200lbs in 5/16"

So 20% of 4500lbs is 900lbs. That is about 15% of the breaking strength of Warpspeed. So the stretch for Warpspeed will be around 0.5% at the same load, not the 0.62% stretch of the 20% number. 

On smaller boats like my Pearson 28-2 or TakeFive's Catalina 250 being sailed recreationally there is rarely reason to go higher end than XLS Extra. I did use MLX for my spin sheets so that I could strip the covers and because they need to be very low stretch when used as guys.

If you think through the loads you can figure out where to buy fancy line (halyards, guys, reefing lines) and where it's less important because loads are low (main sheet), because the line is grossly oversized for easy handling (jib sheets), or because lengths are short (boom downhaul or cunningham cleated at the mast).

I almost never buy NE Ropes stuff, I've almost always found a better line from Samson at a lower price. The one exception is Regatta Braid, which is a single braid that is easy to splice to dyneema single braid and much nicer in the hand than Samson's budget single braid.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

With the cost of high tech line so high, it makes no sense IMO to have the high tech line below the winch or where the tension is taken by a cleat. This commercial duty Tenex line splices flawlessly into Amsteel, grips the winch well, and can actually be a size bigger for the "hand" of line. It is soft, pliable and works quite well at a fraction of the price of the Amsteel: Samson Tenex Polyester Rope


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Many times one can go from a stretchy larger diam line to a less stretch, thinner line, spend about the same amount of money, have a line that is easier to use, stronger with less stretch. With that, I have all XLS Extra on my boat, all about a size or two smaller than I need with sta-set. Less water retention when it is wet out among the many advantages of it.

Marty


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Thanks for all the advice, even though it took on a greater level of complexity than I need (typical of Sailnet).

FYI, my ST winches won't grab anything less than 5/16", so skinnier line won't work in them. Overcoming this by splicing larger ends onto a smaller halyard is a level of hard-core that is way beyond what I have time for. Also, having replaced my masthead sheaves, I would be concerned that too small a line could fall into the gap between the sheaves and jam. So I'm not going with anything other than 5/16" for my halyard. However, in the future, I may consider downsizing my jib sheets from 3/8" to 5/16".

I'm not wedded to using NE Ropes, but I saw some good prices on them on the web. Most of my other lines from the boat are from different manufacturers. The only NE Rope I currently have is 1/4" Sta-Set for my furler, and that's because my furler line broke on a cruise and it's the only 1/4" line I could find in stock at the local Rock Hall store.

However, I did make use of your advice, and found a great deal on 5/16" VPC, pre-spliced with shackle, so I ordered that. I had never even heard of VPC, so thanks to mr f for being first to suggest that. Looking forward to trying it out. My current halyard will be cut into at least two parts and moved to my Phantom sailing dinghy (pictured below). Or maybe I'll try it as a jib sheet first.


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Let us know how you find the feel and handling of the VPC after you have experienced it.
Thanks,
John


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

ccriders said:


> Let us know how you find the feel and handling of the VPC after you have experienced it.
> Thanks,
> John


I will. I do wish I lived near a store that carried all these ropes so I could just go see them for myself. Instead I'm forced to get advice up here and try something different whenever I need to replace something.


----------



## midnightsailor (May 23, 2003)

I never cared for the StasetX , much to stiff and dosn't run through blocks worth a darn. I think the VPC is an excekllent line ,it is low stretch , runs easily in blocks, coils easily but reasonably priced. I also like the XLS extra. I currently have both on my boat and am replacing any of my worn staset with the VPC, it also is not hard to splice either but as previously mentioned uses a differnt technique, called a core to core splice.


----------



## nolesailor (Oct 29, 2009)

I know this is a little late as the OP already ordered some VPC, but I would second Alex W's recommendation for Samson XLS Extra. I recently replaced my first and second reef lines with this (single line system so lots of friction) and have been happy with them. When it comes to replace the main and jib halyards (currently sta-set I believe), I plan to replace them with XLS Extra...


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

FlyingJunior said:


> JimMcGee - 40ft = 480 inches
> 
> At 2.5% stretch, that = 12 inches. You forgot to convert feet to inches.


Mea culpa.

But my point is the same. You can recover some of that foot with the winch; and will the relatively small difference in sail shape really make any difference for casual cruising on the river -- we're not talking competitive racing here.


----------



## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

JimMcGee said:


> Mea culpa.
> 
> But my point is the same. You can recover some of that foot with the winch; and will the relatively small difference in sail shape really make any difference for casual cruising on the river -- we're not talking competitive racing here.


12" sure will. Goes from a nice shape to a bagged out mess.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

On my P31-2 I have new 8mm (5/16") VPC as my spinnaker halyard and 8mm T-900 for my jib halyard. Both are working quite satisfactorily, the VPC is a little more flexible than the T-900 which is plenty flexible. These are served by a non-ST winch. I would think 8 mm VPC should work fine as your main halyard line.


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Yes, it is completely worth spending an additional $40 on a halyard to have 1/3rd of the stretch. Racers aren't the only ones who should enjoy a sailboat that performs well, for cruisers it is the difference between sailing most of the time and motoring most of the time.

VPC is a nice line and will serve TakeFive well. I prefer the little less slick and softer cover of XLS Extra, but VPC's cover softens up over time and feels pretty nice too. I've only used large diameters of VPC (7/16" and 1/2") and the smaller 5/16" probably doesn't feel quite as stiff.


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Just out of curiosity, do any of these ropes resist or shed dirt better than others. I occasionally get blowing pollution from a bauxite plant that leaves a residue on the windward half of the halyard. Not only is it unsightly, but it get my hands and gloves dirty.
John


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

JimMcGee said:


> Mea culpa.
> 
> But my point is the same. You can recover some of that foot with the winch; and will the relatively small difference in sail shape really make any difference for casual cruising on the river -- we're not talking competitive racing here.





zz4gta said:


> 12" sure will. Goes from a nice shape to a bagged out mess.


Stretch and sag aren't the same thing.

Yes the line will stretch by 2.8% under load. That doesn't mean that the sail will sag by that amount or that you won't be able to tension the halyard to achieve a decent sail shape and luff tension (otherwise sta-set wouldn't have a market to begin with). Remember you're pre-loading the halyard when you raise the sail.

In a gust you might see a brief stretching of the luff -- though I'm not sure if it would be visible to the eye -- and I doubt you'd feel it in the boat.

While lower stretch provides a perceived advantage for racers who are trying to extract every last bit of performance. My point was that such slight changes in sail shape aren't critical when you're pleasure sailing a 25 footer.

Any slight stretch is even less a factor in the real world where pleasure sailors, usually single handed or a couple are out enjoying the day, grabbing a soda and munching a sandwich. It's not a hyper race crew constantly trimming for every last bit of speed.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

FYI, my current halyard is Novatech XLE 5/16" which I bought on ebay for $0.50/foot. I've been generally happy with it. It feels great in the hand, nice finish, passes through blocks really well with virtually no kinking or other fouling, and really great price. It wasn't until I looked harder at the numbers that I realized that it's pretty stretchy. It's worked fine for me as halyard, sheet, and single line reefing. It's particularly good for reefing, where easy passage through blocks and cringles is so important. The stretchiness never bothered me, which support's Jim's statements for casual cruisers.

So what led me to want to replace it? Believe it or not, IT'S THE WRONG COLOR. I liked the Novatech XLE so much that I decided to buy some more, cut to fit my 1st and 2nd reef lines. And I stupidly bought the same color for my 1st reef as my halyard. After buying, I realized that the two lines run parallel to each other and pass through adjacent clutches, same size, and same color. This will lead to confusion when tracing lines, working with inexperienced crew ("pull on the white and blue line"), etc. That, plus the fact that my Phantom sailing dinghy needs a new halyard and mainsheet (which the 5/16" XLE would be great for), led me to look for a new mainsail halyard. And after hearing all this stuff about low-stretch halyards being better, I decided that I might as well try a lower stretch rope and see if I notice a difference. I found the VPC for 67 cents a foot, with pre-spliced eye and shackle, so I grabbed it. And yes, it's the right color.


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Take Five, I think you will be all-right. You are having a shackle spliced in? That is a good thing. If it is not to late (or if you want to “up your game” in splicing), I would suggest putting in a “Flemish Eye” splice in on the other end. That way you can tie a tag line to the new halyard and not have to sew two lines together.

NER has been the primary cordage provider to Catalina for years. The Catalina spec for my boat calls out for 3/8 Sta Set X. If you are noticing that you have to grind in on the halyard or if you find yourself using the Cunningham frequently, then you definitely need to upgrade your halyard. If you notice that the boat “loads up” a lot in a puff and you do not feel acceleration, then you also might have a halyard (or a sail) problem. You can also see it in the old halyard itself if it has been stretched too many times. When buying a new halyard, you want to match it to your local conditions (windy or light?), what type of sailing you are doing (racing or cruising?), and what type of sail you have (no point in buying Dynema if you have a light weight Dacron sail). 

A note on coiling double braid: In the “olden days”, three strand had a natural twist in it. This lent itself to the classic coil. The double braided lines have no twist at all and especially the ones with tightly woven covers, are a pain to coil in loops. They also have a tendency to “hockle”, or kink as they try to run through blocks. To avoid this, you need to coil them using a “figure 8” pattern. You can still finish them on the upper loop of the “8”. The added bonus is because the lines cross-over in the middle, they will rarely tangle.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

pics when you set them please


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

TakeFive said:


> I decided that I might as well try a lower stretch rope and see if I notice a difference. I found the VPC for 67 cents a foot, with pre-spliced eye and shackle, so I grabbed it. And yes, it's the right color.


Rick, after you sail with it a bit I'd be curious if you do feel a difference.

Hope the summer is treating you well and you're getting in lots of sailing days, not like us poor saps stuck at work.

Jim


----------



## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

I find it very easy to tell my rigging mentor what I want, how much I want to spend, and he finds me the right line  Bad attempt at being funny but true, sorry  

I tend to prefer Samson over NE Ropes, mostly for feel. Unfortunately its harder to find Samson when you need it now vs waiting to order it, at least in my neck of the woods. As noted though, not all are the same. 

Good luck


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I replaced my 25+ year old wire-line main halyard with VPC this year. After a couple of months of using it, I am pleased. Stretch is low, line is easy to handle, runs fine through the blocks (led back to cockpit) and clutch holds it fine. I'd use it again.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

JimsCAL said:


> I replaced my 25+ year old wire-line main halyard with VPC this year. After a couple of months of using it, I am pleased. Stretch is low, line is easy to handle, runs fine through the blocks (led back to cockpit) and clutch holds it fine. I'd use it again.


pics? for future reference...jejeje


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

JimMcGee said:


> ...Hope the summer is treating you well and you're getting in lots of sailing days, not like us poor saps stuck at work...


Well I'm a poor sap stuck at work too. But I try not to let it prevent me from getting out at least once a week. Work is why I park the boat 12 minutes from my home, with all the sailing sacrifices that entails.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

On the subject of the right line for the application, one issue with my P31-2 was the PO's 7/16'" Sta-set mainsheet ran out slowly, even through the new Garhauer blocks. So I replaced the Sta-set with 3/8"NER Salsa line, and I have to say it is just great. Very soft on hand and runs with no friction at all (the smaller size helping). And it has some great color.


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Salsa is great for mainsheets, but questionable for halyards. Over time salsa has a tendency to break down on highly loaded static lines as the dyneema takes up more load than the polyester. Otherwise it's great stuff, and doesn't hockles at all.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

sailingfool said:


> On the subject of the right line for the application, one issue with my P31-2 was the PO's 7/16'" Sta-set mainsheet ran out slowly, even through the new Garhauer blocks. So I replaced the Sta-set with 3/8"NER Salsa line, and I have to say it is just great. Very soft on hand and runs with no friction at all (the smaller size helping). And it has some great color.


That was exactly the case when I replaced the mainsheet with Salsa. It works very well, is very light, slides with little friction and is easy to get a good grip on. The existing 7/16" Yacht Braid was soft enough but had too much friction going through the sheet blocks. I would hesitate to use Salsa for a halyard though. The lay of the line seems to give it just enough stretch to make it great for sheets but it might be a bit too stretchy for a halyard.


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

NER Regatta Braid has the same feel braid and feel as Salsa Braid, but is made with polyester/dacron instead of being a poly/dyneema blend. This makes it a little stretchier but lower cost. On many boats it would be a good choice for a main sheet.

On most boats (at least ones that don't run the main sheet to a winch) stretch is less of a concern on the main sheet than the main halyard. The main sheet is typically run through a lot of blocks for mechanical advantage and the load is shared between 4 to 6 segments of rope. Distances are also a lot shorter. 

I used Salsa Braid as the main sheet on my 505 because it feels so nice in the hand, and is easy to splice to dyneema, but if I were doing it again I'd save a few dollars and use Regatta Braid.

Blocks are more efficient with smaller line, so some of your improvement came from just moving to a smaller diameter mainsheet.


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

It's threads like this that make me think I should finally write up a guide to making tapered dyneema lines... It is amazing how much easier a 1/4" piece of ultra strong slippery line runs thru blocks than a 7/16 piece of sta-set. Not to mention cheaper as well. 

For my money there is nothing better than a tapered endura-braid halyard. Or a solid dyneema line with a spliced in cover where needed. And frankly it's less expensive as well. But you need to learn how to splice it. Of course it helps that dyneema is the easiest line there is to splice.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Stumble said:


> Salsa is great for mainsheets, but questionable for halyards. ..l.


Agreed, in addition to the Salsa for the mainsheet, we have Sta-set for the jib sheets, T900 for the Jib halyard (and maybe soon the main halyard) and VPC for the spinnaker halyard...


----------



## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

We have start set x for kite halyards, it's OK but as others have said it's stiff. Coiling a hundred for of 5/8" is not much fun. If we raced more it would be gone. The runners are 1/2" amsteel and they have a much better hand.


----------



## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Shockwave said:


> ..... The runners are 1/2" amsteel and they have a much better hand.


What boat is that on?!?!?


----------



## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

*Cruising or Racing?*

If the primary use for this boat is racing, go I would go for the lowest stretch material available with tapered halyards to reduce windage.

For a cruising boat, however, I have found that regular Sta-Set is just fine for all running rigging applications and is superior to Sta-Set X for all the reasons already posted. Buying a full spool (600 ft) to replace all the running rigging at once is the most economical way to go if you can use the same size throughout.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

JimMcGee said:


> Rick, after you sail with it a bit I'd be curious if you do feel a difference.


OK, I've done several sails with the new 5/16" VPC halyard, so I can make a few comments.

One of the first things that I noticed is how light the line is, especially when wet. I guess the polyolefin core does not absorb or retain nearly as much water as an all-polyester braid.

It also is just a flexible as higher stretch braids. However, it definitely wants to coil in figure-8 shape, which gives some indication of low stretch.

I've noticed that it pulls through blocks very nicely. Today I went to the mast and pulled up the sail by hand. My wife then pulled the untensioned line thought the blocks and clutch into the cockpit. I looked down and noticed a couple of small loops that I thought would foul the blocks, but they quickly uncoiled and passed through without any help. That's a good thing, since I was holding up the sail with may hands, and would have had to let go to bend down if I needed to unfoul the lines.

I do notice the lower stretch. The day before I pulled through the new line, I went out in a gentle breeze and applied enough tension to remove any sagging at the base of the luff. Later a little puff made things lively for a few minutes, and afterwards there was a definite sag.

The very next day, after pulling through the new halyard, I went out under identical conditions. There was a similar puff, but afterwards there was no sag.

I found that I can tension the new halyard much more, and need to be careful to not over-tension in gentle breezes. I was able to take so much draft out of my sail that at one point one of the battens developed an "S" shape, essentially making the sail look like it was backwinded along the luff. I immediately released some tension and got a much better sail shape.

So in general, I do get finer control of tension and sail shape than I had before. Do I have sufficient sailing skills for this to make a difference in my speed, sail trim, heel, etc? Not so sure.

But now that I think about it, we've been reefing less the last couple of weeks, easily sailing through breezes that would have required reefing in the past due to excessive heel. (Including a small craft advisory off Turkey Point last Sunday.) So I would say that we may be seeing a benefit of the lower stretch. Or maybe I'm just imagining it because I want it to be true.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I'm looking to replace my tired mainsail halyard on _Breakin' Away_. WestMarine's 50% off sale ends tomorrow, so I'd like to pull the trigger fast. I was so happy with VPC on my prior boat that I'm thinking of getting it again. I was searching the web for comments, and stumbled across this old thread that I had started. I had forgotten about all the helpful discussion. As you see in my previous comment a few years ago, I did notice better mainsail shape with VPC halyard vs. more traditional polyester halyard.

I'm not going to replace all my running rigging at one time, but I'll stagger it by addressing the most worn lines (main halyard and traveler) first. I'm thinking of going with white with colored flecks for all up-n-down lines (halyards, boom vang, reefs) and dark colors for predominantly side-to-side lines (sheets, traveler). Mainsail sheet/halyard will be green/white patterns, genoa blue/white, the rest TBD.

I'm still open to your comments before I pull the trigger on this.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

TakeFive said:


> .... As you see in my previous comment a few years ago, I did notice better mainsail shape with VPC halyard vs. more traditional polyester halyard...


The rigger who replaced my running rigging strongly recommended T-900 for the jib and main halyards, then VPC for the spinnaker halyard. T-900 is very low stretch. For a related discussion see


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Here's a good line selection guide by Samson. Note they recommend polyester double braid for cruisers, high tech lines for racers and either for racer/cruisers. I went with Warpspeed on my last boat as I was still racing and VPC on my current boat. VPC is good compromise as it is not much more expensive than poly double braid with much lower stretch. The big advantage of the high tech lines is you can go down in size and thus reduce weight aloft.

http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Brochures/RM_Line_Selection_Guide_WEB.pdf


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

sailingfool said:


> The rigger who replaced my running rigging strongly recommended T-900 for the jib and main halyards, then VPC for the spinnaker halyard. T-900 is very low stretch. For a related discussion see
> 
> Selecting Sailing Rope | Sail Fanatics - YouTube


That video is great, thanks for posting. It really helps demonstrate the flexibility/stiffness of the various types of line. Not as good as being there, but since my local stores don't have much selection, the video is about all I have to go on before ordering online.

The VPC is 1.4% stretch @ 20% (a big improvement from Sta-set's 2.8%), whereas T-900 is 1.2% at double the price and less flexible. So a lot more money for marginally less stretch. I agree with what he said that for a furling jib halyard, where you're raising and lowering only once a season, the stiffness is fine. But for a main halyard, where you're raising every daysail and coiling/flaking for storage, and want to be able to release from the cockpit without kinking, I think I want the flexibility of VPC for better handling. It's good enough for cruising, and still an upgrade from Sta-Set at a very good price point. So right now I'm planning to still get the VPC unless something else catches my fancy.

One thing I noticed on the video is VPC's dirt retention, which I had also noticed on my C250 halyard. I'm not real crazy about that, so I may go with a dark color halyard (instead of white) to help hide that. The halyard does a lot of sitting on/sliding across the deck, so dirt pickup is a potential issue. Also, the CPC dyes in green and blue lines are very lightfast and will help protect the line from UV exposure - important for a line that is constantly exposed to sunlight when the sail is down.

For some applications on my current boat and the prior one, I've occasionally used NovaBraid XLE, a budget line that gets criticized for its pretty high stretch. But I really LOVE the finish they put on their colored lines, so may consider continuing to use that on some applications that have high purchase (thus relatively low tension), like mainsheet and traveler. It has really nice hand, and the colored covers seem to stay clean forever. But I'd never use that for a halyard, which is a very high tension application with only 1:1 purchase.


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Problems with StaSet.

If you apply 'heavy' strain to your StaSet halyards in order to help adjust the 'shape' your sails .... by increasing halyard tension in order to 'shift' the location of the point of maximum draft back and forth to attain precision 'helm balance'; or, to help flatten (trip) and 'de-curve' the leech in a 'full up' mainsail in order to lessen heeling, etc. ... you'll soon find that StaSet will soon eventually become twisted (with a developed raised spiral pattern on the outer braid) and will also become 'thicker' in diameter and shorter in overall length. 
The same will be observed in traveller control lines that are applied with LOTS of strain.

The same especially can apply to jib/genoa StaSet halyards controlling sails on roller reefing foils - when raising and lowering, the deformed/twisted StaSet halyard will cause the top swivel to 'wrap' the sail about the foil and increase the friction of the sail in the foil ... at worst, sometimes causing the sail to 'jam' in the foil groove when raising/lowering the sail.

If you only 'just raise' your sails and dont ever 'shape' your sails via the addition of intense halyard tension ... this won't be a developing problem.

This accumulating spiral '_hysteresis_' (fattening of diameter and shortening of overall length, as well as developing a 'twist') will occur in StaSet that is subject to HIGH load and HIGH strain.

There's been several discussions of this StaSet phenomenon ... and are located 'somewhere' in the archives here.


----------



## heading168 (Sep 27, 2017)

The only difference I found between the 2 are the x has a softer fuzzier cover and it's harder to splice. Both the double braid and stranded cord poly ropes have incredible stretch to them. Don't believe me tie a 30 foot length to a tree and lean back they're like rubber bands. If your sheets are double braid poly ever wonder why you have to trim when the wind builds and ease when it lightens? Poly braid! I use poly braid for things like my traveler genny tracks and spin halyard and the only reason I use it there is because its heavy, if I happen to slip and let it go I don't have to climb the mast to retrieve it. All my other halyards and sheets I'm using a poly cover and Dyneema core I did do the tapered thing but found the Dyneema chaffs much quicker than the poly cover in the sheaves. I found though that the poly/Dyneema tend to run a little smaller in diameter like they call 1/2" 12mm and have been known to buy a size up if it's going to go through a clutch. I had a sta set x main halyard found it would slip in the clutch I had to keep it wrapped on the winch so I can't really tell you if it was stretch or slip that was the greater problem but it was annoying enough that I replaced it with a poly/Dyneema one. Since changing over my main and jib halyards and sheets over to the Dyneema core I do a lot less adjusting and trimming. I use the single braid Dyneema for my out haul on the main and tack line for my A sail. I also use it on my bow sprit just because its so easy to work and splice. As far as brand poly is poly Dyneema is Dyneema it all comes from the same dupont factory whether its put together by samson or new england rope right?


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Good point by Heading168. 
The ease at which StaSet and StaySetX stretches can allow for some significant 'power ups' in mainsails and Genoas ... when their luff's are allowed to go towards 'slack'. 
When the halyards unduly stretch, the amount of draft in the sails increases as well as 'goes aft'. So with increasing wind velocity, you then potentially develop 'additional' increasing weather helm as well as 'additional' heeling moment.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

heading168 said:


> ...As far as brand poly is poly Dyneema is Dyneema it all comes from the same dupont factory whether its put together by samson or new england rope right?


Dyneema is UHMW polyethylene, made by DSM. DuPont makes Kevlar aramid fiber, but has been out of the rest of the fiber business for about 15 years.

I'm not sure whether DSM sells Dyneema as pre-braided rope, or as raw fiber which other lofts then braid themselves, or licenses the technology/trademark to individual rope lofts. If it's either of the latter two, there may be differences in braid design that could affect the performance of the rope.


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Take Five, what is your hull number? Mine is 1476 so we should be within a hundred boats of each other. Our halyards are close to 100’ (between clutch and head card). For argument sake, they are 50’ when under tension. A 1.4% stretch would mean 8” of elongation where the Sta Set at 2.8% would be 17”. Big difference. What is your mainsail constructed of and what are your typical conditions? Out here in NorCal, I have a Pentex Tape drive main and our typical conditions are in the upper teens and low twenties. Both my halyards are T-900 in which I’m very happy. I don’t get that annoying “halyard sag” requiring tensioning once or twice during a sail and puffs are immediately transferred into power. The stiffness is not an issue at all, if anything it keeps the line from hockeling through the clutch. I completely destroyed the original factory Sta Set Halyard within two years. If you are using the factory fully battened main I’d recommend the Vectran. 

p.s. To keep your jib from prematurely wearing out, you should consider easing the jib halyard slightly when doing the final furling at the end of the sail.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

You want something with dyneema in it for a halyard. Sta-set is great line for just about everything else. 

This is generally a well over-thought topic for cruisers. Just get any dyneema product and I defy you to tell the difference from another with less than a percent difference in stretch. 

What I would research, would be durability, generally of the cover, not the core. You'll drop a few bucks, so you want it to last. The only dyneema line I have experience with is Endura. It's moderately stiff and has worn well so far, but I can't compare it.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

GeorgeB said:


> Take Five, what is your hull number? Mine is 1476 so we should be within a hundred boats of each other. Our halyards are close to 100' (between clutch and head card). For argument sake, they are 50' when under tension. A 1.4% stretch would mean 8" of elongation where the Sta Set at 2.8% would be 17". Big difference. What is your mainsail constructed of and what are your typical conditions? Out here in NorCal, I have a Pentex Tape drive main and our typical conditions are in the upper teens and low twenties. Both my halyards are T-900 in which I'm very happy. I don't get that annoying "halyard sag" requiring tensioning once or twice during a sail and puffs are immediately transferred into power. The stiffness is not an issue at all, if anything it keeps the line from hockeling through the clutch. I completely destroyed the original factory Sta Set Halyard within two years. If you are using the factory fully battened main I'd recommend the Vectran...


My hull number is 1535.

I agree with your analysis, and had done a similar calculation to select VPC, which claims the 1.4% elongation that you showed. T-900 costs twice as much as VPC, and drops the elongation to 1.2%, which reduces elongation by less than an inch vs. VPC in the example you cite. (Even these numbers are inflated, unless you routinely apply 800 lb of tension.) So you've re-stated my argument that VPC provides a good balance of properties for my situation.


----------



## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

StaSet is so stiff it will climb out of self tailing winch jaws. That's the reason that I got rid of it. Went with an exotic cored line because I wanted very low stretch for use with the ATN Top Climber which I use regularly. Probably would go with VPC now for the bang for the buck.

Tie your halyards on and get rid of the shackles. They are a danger and a wasteful expense. Have sailed all over the Western Pacific with tied on halyards. Quit using shackles when I ditched the wire halyards over 40 years ago.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

roverhi said:


> StaSet is so stiff it will climb out of self tailing winch jaws. .....


You sure that wasn't Sta-Set X? Regular Sta-Set is like butter.


----------



## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> You sure that wasn't Sta-Set X? Regular Sta-Set is like butter.


My bad, meant StaSet X is so stiff it doesn't like to follow the contour of the ST jaws so won't self tail without attention.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

TakeFive said:


> That video is great, thanks for posting. It really helps demonstrate the flexibility/stiffness of the various types of line. Not as good as being there, but since my local stores don't have much selection, the video is about all I have to go on before ordering online.
> 
> The VPC is 1.4% stretch @ 20% (a big improvement from Sta-set's 2.8%), whereas T-900 is 1.2% at double the price and less flexible. So a lot more money for marginally less stretch. I agree with what he said that for a furling jib halyard, where you're raising and lowering only once a season, the stiffness is fine. But for a main halyard, where you're raising every daysail and coiling/flaking for storage, and want to be able to release from the cockpit without kinking, I think I want the flexibility of VPC for better handling. It's good enough for cruising, and still an upgrade from Sta-Set at a very good price point. So right now I'm planning to still get the VPC unless something else catches my fancy....


I have to say that is a pretty fair argument, I had not appreciated how small the stretch difference was between T-900 and VPC, I think I'll go with you relative to the main halyard in VPC. Now the question is whether to go up in size from 5/16" to 3/8" for hand comfort...


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

sailingfool said:


> I have to say that is a pretty fair argument, I had not appreciated how small the stretch difference was between T-900 and VPC, I think I'll go with you relative to the main halyard in VPC. Now the question is whether to go up in size from 5/16" to 3/8" for hand comfort...


I think you will find you will have to go up a size in VPC to get the same strength as a high-tech line. Note that stretch is a % of the rated strength, so you have to compare lines of the same strength, not the same diameter. I went with 3/8" VPC on my Cal 33-2 which has a pretty tall rig. Don't think 5/16" VPC would have been satisfactory.

EDIT: Just checked and my P is almost iidentical to the Cat 34 MK2 tall rig.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

My old stayset halyard works great for towing the dinghy. Easy on the hands, moderate stretch. Not too fuzzy either. A bit faded. Might have to end for end it this season.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

aeventyr60 said:


> My old stayset halyard works great for towing the dinghy. Easy on the hands, moderate stretch. Not too fuzzy either. A bit faded. Might have to end for end it this season.


That's a lot of line to have go underwater near the prop. That can make for a spectacular screw up.





Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Your VPC main halyard gave up the ghost in 3 years? We have VPC on our runners and reef lines and like it very much. It replaced StaSet-X, which is the worse line I have ever come across. I don't understand why StaSet-X is even being sold now. Who is buying that stuff? It is terrible in all ways, and there are so many other better lines at the same cost.

Our main and (hank on) jib halyards have always been T-900, and we have a love/hate relationship with it. Love the low stretch, but hate everything else about it. We replaced our 1998 main halyard last year with T-900 again. Nothing really wrong with it, but got a good price, and the old one went to the spare halyard.

We have now confirmed that our hate of T-900 exceeds our like of it. It is very stiff. It constantly jumps out of the winch jaws, which requires someone to tail it - negating the purpose of a self-tailing winch, and after going through the winch it retains a tight memory, which means it needs to be fully unwound and straightened before it is lowered again. If not, it jams continually through the clutch and blocks.

I just scored 140' of 7/16" Endura Braid for $0.90/ft, so this will now be our main halyard. Check out Hamilton Marine's cutoff rope deals on their website - some really good prices.

We have one application of Samson XLS Extra-T on board. This is a really nice line too, but if you need to splice it, I found it impossible. It is the only splice that has ever defeated me. The cover is so tight on it, that just getting the core out of it takes some effort, and I found it impossible to get a fid through it. Milking it would take super-human strength. But that's just me - obviously others do splice it.

I think VPC is an excellent choice for your application. I really like it on our runners and reef lines.

Mark


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I just realized that halyard threads are a lot like anchor threads.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

colemj said:


> ...I think VPC is an excellent choice for your application. I really like it on our runners and reef lines.


Reef lines are not at the top of my priority list, but I'll keep VPC in mind. As I recall, it had a slightly slippery feel which could make it very good at all the friction points in my single line reefing system. Plus the low stretch is great in a reefing application, where there's no purchase and the upward direction of pull of the cringles against the line makes for huge stresses.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

sailingfool said:


> That's a lot of line to have go underwater near the prop. That can make for a spectacular screw up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well Grasshopper, some of us don't screw up..and don't tow dingies too far, and have the cognitve abilities to remember that we are towing dingies and can shorten up the line...not looking at a stupid phone in the interim either..


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

aeventyr60 said:


> Well Grasshopper, some of us don't screw up..and don't tow dingies too far, and have the cognitve abilities to remember that we are towing dingies and can shorten up the line...not looking at a stupid phone in the interim either..


...and some of us have smart phones, just sayin'.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> Reef lines are not at the top of my priority list, but I'll keep VPC in mind. As I recall, it had a slightly slippery feel which could make it very good at all the friction points in my single line reefing system. Plus the low stretch is great in a reefing application, where there's no purchase and the upward direction of pull of the cringles against the line makes for huge stresses.


I meant that I think VPC would be a good choice for your main halyard. I only mentioned our reefing lines to convey that we have experience with VPC. Our reefing lines are long single continuous ones for each reef leading back to the helm, so they are similar in characteristics to a halyard as regard to length and stretch.

Mark


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

colemj said:


> I meant that I think VPC would be a good choice for your main halyard. I only mentioned our reefing lines to convey that we have experience with VPC. Our reefing lines are long single continuous ones for each reef leading back to the helm, so they are similar in characteristics to a halyard as regard to length and stretch.
> 
> Mark


I know what you meant - sorry for my misleading comment. To be more clear, I already ordered 10mm VPC for the halyard (based on your comments and my prior experience), and when I'm ready to do reefing lines I'll probably go with VPC also. I did go with Navy Blue color for the halyard to mask the dirt/grime retention problem that I had with my prior white VPC.

JimsCAL's comment about considering differences in tensile strength is a valid one, and means that T-900's elongation for a given diameter line is less than half of VPC, even though the % numbers are close. However, I stuck with VPC because of the self-tailing winch issue with its stiffness. Smaller diameter T-900 would be more flexible and as strong as larger VPC, but that brings in the issues with gripping in the clutch and self-tailing teeth.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> I know what you meant - sorry for my misleading comment. To be more clear, I already ordered 10mm VPC for the halyard (based on your comments and my prior experience), and when I'm ready to do reefing lines I'll probably go with VPC also. I did go with Navy Blue color for the halyard to mask the dirt/grime retention problem that I had with my prior white VPC.
> 
> JimsCAL's comment about considering differences in tensile strength is a valid one, and means that T-900's elongation for a given diameter line is less than half of VPC, even though the % numbers are close. However, I stuck with VPC because of the self-tailing winch issue with its stiffness. Smaller diameter T-900 would be more flexible and as strong as larger VPC, but that brings in the issues with gripping in the clutch and self-tailing teeth.


VPC is the way we went also.for both the halyards and reefing lines. Reefing lines are two different colors


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

TakeFive said:


> ...and some of us have smart phones, just sayin'.


you'll be real smart not to be looking at while towing your dink!


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

BTW, in what way did your original VPC halyard fail after 3yrs? I would have expected a much longer life than that.

Mark


----------

