# Running Rigging Plan



## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Hello Friends,

I'm pulling a plan together to completely re-do my running rigging. The first pic is the "current state". It's pretty bad. (Note: this pic was taken during the 'sea trial' I wasn't the captain.)

After this post, I'll post the very "high level" first draft of my new plan, with specific questions.

Thanks,
craig


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

This is what I'd like to do....

Let's first see if it's big enough to read.. if so.. I'll post some questions..


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Ok here first is an explanation.

In thi model, the traveler is adjusted by hand. Swivel block and jam cleated. That's the most used main trim on my boat I wanted it to be easy. I'm thinking 8:1.

What about the vang? Also 8:1?

Main sheet is also a jam cleat on the traveler itself.

I'm not getting a chute till next year, so the starboard side will have some free real estate. But when I do, I'm gonna need a winch for the down haul on the pole right?

The concept of lead blocks is from Gui. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/307912-post.html

What sort of mechanical advantage would I need to have for a hand trimmed main sheet? I'm thinking 8:1.

Will sheeting in the main by hand above the companionway really be a pain? (I rarely single hand but it will happen....) - I don't want to move the traveler, but I don't think I want to trim my main by winch either...

I'll have a load more detailed questions about brands, line sizes etc. later. Right now I'd like to get a first pass at the 10,000 foot view...

Where would I mount preventers?

Some things were just easier on a 24' boat! 



What am I forgetting? I'm sure I'm about to have a head slapper...

Thanks all,
Craig


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Nice presentation..

A couple of points (just my thoughts) Rather than an 8:1 mainsheet I'd go with 6:1, but with a short fine tune as well.. that could be 4:1 and give you lots of power for the last few inches of trim. 8:1 is going to mean an awful lot of line to pull through all the time, and it will be slow when the loads are light.

You appear to be planning stoppers/clutches for the pole down/lift... I think they are a bit too awkward to use readily and often, fairleads and camcleats can be arranged to be easily released and re cleated even from several feet away in the cockpit. I'm not at all sure that you'll need a winch... if you double your downhaul at the foredeck you should be fine on a 34 footer - just don't let it get away on you.

You may find the mainsheet hanging in the companionway a bit of a pain and often out of reach.. but you've not got a lot of room left to run it forward and back like it probably is now. It's rare but I've seen mainsheets run aft along the boom with a cleat on the boom more or less overhead in the cockpit. Problem then is access when the boom is outboard going downwind - you'd need a pretty long tail.

Anyhow, good luck and hope it all works out for you.. that's a fair bit of hardware you're planning to buy!


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Why not run the main sheet up to the mast base and back to a clutch on the cabin top? Are you just out of room? Or bring it all the way back to the helm if you use it a lot.


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## Plumper (Nov 21, 2007)

All the 8:1 purchases seem over kill to me. There will be miles of line around. My boat (similar size) has 4:1 on the traveler and 6:1 on the mainsheet (Midboom). They are not difficult to trim at all. My Vang is 4:1 as well.

The cunningham, outhaul and main halyard should probably be reversed or lines will cross at the mast base.

The mainsheet will be a pain. It should run farther aft where you can reach it from the helm.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

8:1 is probably overkill on almost everything. You're on a 34' boat... 

I also notice that you're using single line reefing. I would highly recommend you use double-line reefing, as it gives you much more control over the reefed sail's shape IMHO and is faster and easier to use. 

I'd also agree that having line clutches on the pole life and downhaul are a bad idea. 

Finally, you'll probably want to angle the line organizers a bit more, so that the two or three lines are running very close to each other, rather than spread out the way you have them on the drawing. This is to minimize the deck area they take up and help reduce the tripping hazard.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Faster:
See my replies in the quote window... Thanks so much for your time..!



Faster said:


> Nice presentation..
> 
> * I'm a consultant.. it's what we do!  *
> 
> ...


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

bestfriend said:


> Why not run the main sheet up to the mast base and back to a clutch on the cabin top? Are you just out of room? Or bring it all the way back to the helm if you use it a lot.


BF:
Yeah, I was trying to save the real estate on the cabin top... but I don't think there's anyway around it now... The main sheet hanging there would probably be a big PITA.

Do you think a clutch?

I'd like to see if I can keep the mainsheet adjustable by hand quickly and easily....it's more a "nice to have" than a "must"... for me the traveler is a "must" by hand.

Thanks,
craig


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Plumper thanks! See below....



Plumper said:


> All the 8:1 purchases seem over kill to me. There will be miles of line around. My boat (similar size) has 4:1 on the traveler and 6:1 on the mainsheet (Midboom). They are not difficult to trim at all. My Vang is 4:1 as well.
> 
> *Yep... 8:1 is just wrong....Awesome.. thanks... Do you trim your traveler by hand or with a winch?*
> 
> ...


You guys are great...


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

SD See below!



sailingdog said:


> 8:1 is probably overkill on almost everything. You're on a 34' boat...
> 
> *C'mon... guy can dream can't he???? *
> 
> ...


Thanks all!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

craigtoo said:


> but with a short fine tune as well.. that could be 4:1 and give you lots of power for the last few inches of trim. 8:1 is going to mean an awful lot of line to pull through all the time, and it will be slow when the loads are light.
> 
> *What would that look like? How do I rig in a fine tune? I think I've seen something like it before but I can't get my head around it right now..hmm*


With mid boom sheeting this is more difficult due to the short fall of the sheet tackle.. The diagram below (with minimized parts for simplicity) is one way to install a fine tune but requires that the fine tune be led forward and aft on the cabintop to a cleat.

Red is mainsheet (4 to 6:1) and blue is fine tune (3-4:1) should work OK on your boat. We have a 34 foot frac rig with a big main, using 4:1 on both, it's minimal - the fine tune works fine, (functionally 16:1) but we have a tall bridgedeck so we have limited adjustment. The 4:1 mainsheet hardens up pretty early - we may go to 6:1 one day. I do like the reduced line on the cockpit floor and the speed of the 4:1 though.


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## Plumper (Nov 21, 2007)

I trim my traveler by hand with no problem but there is a winch handy if I ever needed one.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Sabre - I have 34' and 4:1. With the winds we have here, 4:1 can be tough on bringing in the traveler. But I normally don't have to. Dropping it down is easy, obviously. When I tack, I just leave it on the high side, then drop it down after I complete the tack. That way, I am not fighting against the force of the wind to bring it up to center. I would like to have 6:1 and will probably change it eventually. 

As for the mainsheet, I play with that more than I play with the traveler. The traveler for me is mostly a succession of drops as the wind picks up and I power down. The mainsheet I like to play with for wind gusts and direction. I had a post a while back about my options for having it handy. The concensus seemed to be to run the line back along the outside of the cockpit to a block and a winch that I could install on the cockpit combing. Of course, the other option is just to get an autopilot!!!

Oh, and I think Keelhaulin just installed 8:1 with a fine tune on his traveler. You might want to PM him.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Faster:
Great concept. I'll try to see how I can work that in where it makes sense. Really cool... I remember reading in SAIL or something about someone who had rigged fine tuning into their jib sheets. 

BF: Plumper:
I've got 2:1 now on my traveler, and it's useless. Tomorrow a bigger main is arriving and I know I'll need some leverage. I'll probably start with the 4:1 and be so happy with the change.

I usually step-out the mainsheet as the wind picks up to spill air off the top and trim the traveler to the wind direction and gusts... Gonna have a boom-kicker installed before long. Everyboat is different! 

Thanks guys this is really really helpful.

I'll update the drawing and post it again in an hour or so... need to get a report out for a client now....

All the best,
Craig


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Craig, I misspoke earlier. I have 2:1 and will upgrade to 4:1. And I think keelhaulin upgraded to 4:1 or 6:1. Sorry about that, I am still getting over the flu.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Yeah... I misspoke as well.. I have 3:1 on my traveler. It still sucks... 4:1 is minimum...

Pic to follow....

thanks,
craig


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

*Rigging Plan Rev. 2*

I've included some of your suggestions. Thanks again.

*Schematic:*

Remember this is not to scale at all.... It's just like a 'wiring diagram' to get a concept first.

*Table:*

I've also started to build the table. This will eventually grow to include lengths and end types etc.

This is just a very preliminary whack at what I'm thinking really to just get some suggestions / discussion going. I may be way off on diameters and types. I won't be doing any hard core racing, just around the cans for fun a few times a month but I do like to be able to trim my sails effectively.

I like tweaking the sail trim.

*
Questions:*

Are there anyother things that you think I should consider in selecting lines?

Preventers? Any ideas? I'm not too comfortable with disconnecting a Boom Vang and attaching it somewhere. My Dad's boat uses jam cleats with lines led aft with a mid point attachment and sometimes under load they are really tough to 'un-jam'.

Furling lines? Mine run up port side and are *gasp* attached to Safety stancions(sp).

The mainsheet is listed at 6:1 on the drawing... could still be 5:1.

In the table where it says "Wire" that's line to wire spliced - what type of line usually gets spliced to wire?

SD:
If I go with 2 line reefing that will mean 4 lines for 2 reefs I assume? I'm running out of real estate.

Thanks to all ...

Craig


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

With two line reefing there is only one line led aft. Here is a basic diagram. Okay, thats wrong, nevermind.










The second line is for the aft part of the boom. Right guys???

This ones better.










Hold on, technical difficulties.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Here's a better shot.. sorry..


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Hey BF,

Your second pic didn't show... that my end or yours?


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)




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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

..not laughing.. not laughing..



)


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!

I give up! Do a google search for in boom reefing, you'll find it.

Oh and my personal preference would be to have the mainsheet through a clutch.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Yeah... that's the way I'm planning on rigging the reef. Now what's a "Double Line" reef ... ?


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Oh wait... now I see it..


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Oh hell, I don't know! I am so bad with terminology! Just poke some holes in your sail and get some bungie cords! I need a beer.....


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

bestfriend said:


> Oh hell, I don't know! I am so bad with terminology! Just poke some holes in your sail and get some bungie cords! I need a beer.....


Amen brother!  

I see what you're talking about now... Thanks.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Heres a double. You have two lines to adjust.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Yeah.. I think this is what SD is talking about.... 

thanks,
craig


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Craigtoo-

Read this *article* as to why I think why Double LIne reefing is better. 

BTW, do you really need a 2:1 outhaul if the line is being lead to *a line clutch and WINCH...* Get rid of the internal block and free up a sheave and just run the outhaul to the winch.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

One other thought, Craig..

You show your spinn pole downhaul attached fairly close to the mast.. 

The advantage of this arrangement is that you will require fewer adjustments of the downhaul as you trim the pole fore and aft.

The disadvantage is that there will be little to no forward component in the downhaul pull. A downhaul mounted forward on the deck (ours is near the jib tack fitting) makes it more of a "foreguy" and the advantage is that when you snug the downhaul tight it tends to pull the pole up to the spinnaker clew/tack. This makes for a more stable sail, and one more job your bowman won't have to to (i.e. push the pole along the guy to the clew)

The disadvantage then is that virtually every pole adjustment fore and aft requires a followup or simultaneous adjustment of the downhaul. Once the crew is used to this it's not too bad, and IMO the forward pull advantage outweighs the cons.

Just something to consider before you start drilling holes in your foredeck.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Craigtoo-
> 
> Read this *article* as to why I think why Double LIne reefing is better.
> 
> BTW, do you really need a 2:1 outhaul if the line is being lead to *a line clutch and WINCH...* Get rid of the internal block and free up a sheave and just run the outhaul to the winch.


SD,
Thanks for the article! Totally new idea for me. Not to mention the idea of having a block within the boom to add to mechanical advantage for reefing on the previous posts from BF...

Also Re. Outhaul.... holy crap. I was just about to write "you obviously misunderstood me..." but damn, you're right! Why waste 2 sheaves? Gonna take a look at that!

Thanks,
Craig

PS New Sails may be sitting on my front porch RIGHT NOW!!!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

LOL... I can understand if needing a two-to-one purchase for an outhaul if you're not using a winch or have a really small winch.

What kind of sails did you get???



craigtoo said:


> SD,
> Thanks for the article! Totally new idea for me. Not to mention the idea of having a block within the boom to add to mechanical advantage for reefing on the previous posts from BF...
> 
> Also Re. Outhaul.... holy crap. I was just about to write "you obviously misunderstood me..." but damn, you're right! Why waste 2 sheaves? Gonna take a look at that!
> ...


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Faster said:


> One other thought, Craig..
> 
> You show your spinn pole downhaul attached fairly close to the mast..
> 
> ...


Spot on Faster.... I'm way far away from drilling holes... Exactly what you describe is what I'm going to play with... best location to minimize "line humping" while trying to optimize chute trim and "pole hum.. umm I mean Pole Adjustments"  But I won't have a chute for a while. aaMoF I'll be using one of those starboard cam / jam cleats for a boom topping lift till I get a boom kicker installed...

 

Thanks all...
Big 'round of "Bite Me's" to you all... New rev of the plan coming in the next few days.. need to finish it up before I head to Poland! (Now in TN)



Anyone have any thoughts in the diameters and line types that I've suggested? Am I way off?

Craig


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> LOL... I can understand if needing a two-to-one purchase for an outhaul if you're not using a winch or have a really small winch.
> 
> What kind of sails did you get???


North Sails! WOoo Hoooo.. They are Family friends and such so we get everything from them. I really like the fact that the sailmakers hang out with you on your boat for an afternoon taking measurements and (drink your beer) getting to know exactly what you want to get out of your sails...
wanna read something funny? Here's the initial note I wrote the guys down at the Annapolis loft... They are totally the best...

>>>>>>>FORWARDED TEXT>>>>>>>>>

Hello Will...

This is Craig Xxxxxxxx

I've been lucky enough to purchase my own boat.

Poor girl needs some new sails.

Now, this is extremely difficult for me. But I need to just come out and face it.

My new boat .. .well.. it has a Furling Foresail. Oh my God. Ok.. I said it .. there it is.. I am a Roller Furler guy.

Please don't tell my friends.

Also *gasp* it has a Shoal keel / centerboard...Holy crap. I'm only 34. I'm *so* going to lie my ass off to hot chicks that may come aboard. "Full Keel Baby!... Don't let the Roller Furler throw ya...."

I won't even go into the Fresh-water pump....or the millions of gallons of Freshwater it will hold. Not to mention the GIANT diesel engine.. Like 27 HP...Westerbeke. Geesh.

Should I just retire now? I'm so ashamed.
Anyway.

If you could.. Very discretely give me a quote for:

1987 Sabre 34 Mark II
Number 2: 135 ish Roller Furler (Harken Mark I)
Mainsail: (at least put a kinda cool Roach on the thing so I can save some pride...)
Please quote adding the New Sabre Logo to the Main.

It's all stock.. You probably have all the dimensions in a Database somewhere.. But I'll be up at the Boat tomorrow night and will be able to forward you any specifics you may need...

I don't want to go fast. I don't want to go far. I'll just be bouncing around the Chesapeake from Happy Hour to Happy Hour at different Marina's. But I would like some longevity (minimum 5 years)... It won't be raced... no PHRF requirements...

When quoting this sail.. you need to ask yourself... "How will this sail help Craig meet girls and drink more beer?"

That's your motivation.

All the very best,

Craig

<<<<<<<<<<< END FORWARDED TEXT<<<<<<<

Thought that was pretty funny... we've all had a great laugh... Of course he came out and hungout on the boat for an afternoon or so... got all the measurements just for *my* boat and we were able to really dial in something that makes sense just for me! How awesome is that..? (It could be pretty standard... but I'm happy!)

Craig


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

As for the lines you've listed...

Traveler line?? why 1/2" *that's awfully heavy for a traveler control line.* Should be 5/16" or so... not 1/2"

I'd switch to an all-line halyards... 3/8" T-900 will give about the same stretch as wire, reduce weight aloft and be easier on the boat. Might have to replace the masthead sheaves though.

I'd use 3/8" line for the boom vang as well.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

> When quoting this sail.. you need to ask yourself... "How will this sail help Craig meet girls and drink more beer?"
> 
> That's your motivation.


I have to remember that line and use it some how, some way before I die. I love it..


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Free-

You find wisdom in the strangest places...


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> As for the lines you've listed...
> 
> Traveler line?? why 1/2" *that's awfully heavy for a traveler control line.* Should be 5/16" or so... not 1/2"
> 
> ...


Well.. I went 1/2 because it's always in the hand.. constantly being adjusted... larger diameter is easier on the hand... but that also drives up the cost of the hardware... I don't think I'll go below 7/16 on that one...

T-900 for halyards is a good idea.. I think My sheaves will take wire or the T-900 but that's nothing a trip up the mast can't confirm. I do like the idea of no wire... thanks... 3/8'ths too.. that's nice for super low stretch.

craig


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Free-
> 
> You find wisdom in the strangest places...


Strange indeed


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

> Free-
> 
> You find wisdom in the strangest places


Yes, I still have a pulse.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Craigtoo-
> 
> Read this *article* as to why I think why Double LIne reefing is better.


Wow... great article SD. Never really thought about it that way.. Tack first then clew.. control the tension...

Thanks,
craig


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Most traveler setups for boats your size are not going to be able to handle 1/2 line in the traveler line control cars. Most will top out at about 3/8" or so... so it also means getting heavier (and more expensive) cars and track.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Most traveler setups for boats your size are not going to be able to handle 1/2 line in the traveler line control cars. Most will top out at about 3/8" or so... so it also means getting heavier (and more expensive) cars and track.


Yeah....looking at that now.... 1/2 is out.
I may be able to squeeze the 7/16 in the 3/8... hmmm

Product Details

That's the size I'm looking at.. .may go with a different style.. but I think I may end up with th 3/8ths...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you try using 7/16" in a sheave that has a max line diameter of 3/8", you'll get a lot of friction and chafing...


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

I know... i know hrumph...  Gotta see what the price difference is... 

Comfort on your hands, I believe, is important to good trim.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

You could always add a cover to the end of the line, to make it a larger diameter... but that would only work for some of the line.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

craigtoo said:


> Well.. I went 1/2 because it's always in the hand.. constantly being adjusted... larger diameter is easier on the hand... but that also drives up the cost of the hardware... I don't think I'll go below 7/16 on that one...


Gotta go with the Dog on this one, Craig.. going with that heavy a line on the traveller is just going to be overkill. If the traveller is set up with good blocks, enough parts and a good lead to the user, 3/8" is a big as you should need to go. I get your point about the hand of a larger line, but the added bulk & volume of line and expense of the gear really doesn't make sense to me.

While the traveller is, as you say, adjusted often it's rarely held under load longer than it takes to adjust and recleat it. Focus on a good design/layout and you should be fine with lighter line (and happier in the long run).

EDIT: wrote this without seeing the end of the dialogue... sorry!


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

*Phase 1 Complete*

Well.. thanks to all of you for your input.

Here are a few pics... I'll also post a lessons learned... Drilling that many holes in your deck, you're bound to learn something!

Here's the before pic:


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Hmmm.. that didn't work...

EDIT: ok.. THIS SHOULD WORK.. EDIT

AFTER


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Deleted.. See Above


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

DELETED SEE ABOVE PICS TECHNICAL PROBLEMS..

THANKS artbyjody


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

craigtoo said:


> Holy can't post a photo batman!
> 
> Go to...
> 
> ...


goto tinyurl.com - and use that link it generates (its free btw)...


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

You are the MAN!


Thanks... fixing now


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Ok..

Description of what I did.

Halyards - T900 - With mast base blocks (Gui inspired...) I'll need 2 more halyards in phase 2. One for Chute one for Second Jib.

Cunningham, Outhaul, Reef 1, Vang all led to sexy (Gui inspired) mast base blocks and through ....

deck organizers which needed custom fit teak blocks to so that they were mounted flat (deck is curved in that area...I felt like I was fitting a bridge to a violin top.... I used a dremel tool to get the fit right.. took a better part of a day...) lines then led aft to...

Lewmar Line Clutches (now installed in the proper direction) DOH! Yes... i installed them backwards... who'da thunk that the handles would open the wrong way!!  

The mainsail controls:
Harken track 1.8m (Longer than stock you can see the overhang)
New 6:1 main sheet blocks with cam cleat 
New 4:1 traveler (I went 3/8ths the hardware got stupid expensive for bigger stuff...but I like it...)
New boom kicker.

Everything but line clutches is Harken.

Won the first race after the rebuild... ! I do have issues... (Lessons learned to follow...)


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

*Some tips/lessons learned*

1) Lewmar clutches are backwards....when you open them up there's a little picture of a winch with an arrow. No.. they didn't make a mistake. The winch actually goes there. Moron. 

2) Drill oversize holes for all through deck attachments... this is so you can get the epoxy smeared on the exposed deck core. I could have done a better job on this. I'll be re-doing some of my mast base blocks for this reason. I'm losing sleep thinking that I scraped off epoxy as I put the bolt in ... even though I let it dry it was a tight fit...

3) Use 60min epoxy not the 5min stuff. It's "thinner" and really allows you to smear it all over the exposed core better... LOOK FROM THE INSIDE OF THE BOAT OUT AT SUNLIGHT to verify that you've completely coated the core. I was lucky and happened to look up and saw that every hole that I had already epoxied wasn't complete. Went back in and re-smeared.

4) To cover the holes left in the deck by hardware you don't need anymore do what Halekai says...use the finishing washer. Looks great and it's easy.

5) Get Butyl Tape...I was pulling off 20 year old deck organizers and the stuff still looked like Melted Pizza Cheese - Never Leaked. I'll be re-seating with Butyl this winter. I couldn't find it locally and I didn't plan in advance enough to order it online. I used another adhesive which I won't mention. It wasn't 5200 (Is that the super strong one from 3M?) but.. it wasn't the 4200 either...(The one I should have used... DOH!) Hello Winter Project...

6) I put a "Lanacote" barrier (like a grease) between all Aluminum and Stainless interfaces. (Bolts to hardware) ... I hope that's a good idea...

7) I would probably move my mast base blocks used for the sail trim (outhaul, reefs, cunningham etc.) closer to the mast - towards the bow. I placed them directly under where the line exits the boom, but they interfere now (somewhat and nothing bad at all) with the boom kicker when you're on a run. It doesn't look as neat.

8) You can talk Westmarine into an amazing discount... I beat every online price by 10% (and I'm talking shopping cart prices not MAP).... just brought the printouts with me and I had *everything* in less than 24 hours. (I think I had 1 special order which they FedEx'd for me from SanFran on their nickel.) No, the service wasn't amazing... the staff wasn't super knowledgeable... but I felt as if I got a good deal. (This was in Annapolis...)

9) Definitely start a running rigging rebuild with the end in mind. Plan Plan Plan... If you just start moving stuff around and mounting hardware you'll have a disaster on your hands in no time.

10) Boom Vangs are not to be attached to Through bolted U-Bolts on deck. While this may look very sexy and keep the vang block low so that sending the line to the organizer is easy.... it will bend. Yep. Bend. If you look in the after pic above you'll see the u-bolt in the middle of the mast base blocks with the small teak shim block (for angle). It is bent..... And now the vang is attached to a bail at the base of the mast... which meant I had to raise my kicker... crap... bunch of extra work there...

11) Blocks inside a boom are crap. crap. crap. Apparently, I had a 4:1 outhaul and didn't know it. The blocks in the boom were so worn (probably from lack of maintenance.. because THEY WERE IN THE FREAKING BOOM....) I never even noticed the advantage... I had to use a winch to move the sail. So the new design has a tiny wire block attached to the clue and my wire exits the boom on the sheave and goes through the block and is attached to the end of the boom. It's neat and clean and serviceable. It was a nightmare trying to fish the new outhaul lines through because the stupid blocks kept getting in the way...

12) Sailkote is great

As I think of more.. I'll post.

Thanks again to all...

craig


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Craigtoo-

Umm...did you think that every one else might be backwards and Lewmars are correct.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Well... that's what took me the longest!

I had to unscrew the Lewmars have my dad hold them in the air... and COMPLETELY rotate the boat beneath them... Getting the holes to line up was an absolute PITA...


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

(oh.. and why is the LEWMAR label upside down when you mount them "as the directions indicate...?????)

No kidding...


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Nice job Craig...I have been watching this with interest as I am faced with a redo my self...Next season though..

The one thing I wondered about was the reefs being so far forward of the mast, is there any difficulty with that?...or did they end up farther aft compared to your initial drawings?


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Good Question.

The plan changed when we started laying everything out with tape on the deck.

Phase 1 just had the first (single line for now) Reef run aft. Actually it ended up being the mast base block that is just behind the mast almost dead center. 


Reef 2 is directly opposite of it. Also very close to the center line and just aft of the mast. It has a new line which is long enough to run aft... I just ran out of money and have no more rope clutch real estate!

In general, as compared to the diagram, the mast base blocks for the sail trim / reefs are all behind the mast and close to center line. The halyard mast base blocks are directly left and right of the mast.

Phase 2 will 
add more halyards left and right of the mast, 
run Reef 2 back to the cockpit,
add boom end preventers - don't know what that will look like yet
Possibly run 2 line reefing.
Add 2 double line clutches outboard of current clutches.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Craig-

First, if I were you, I would have angled the deck organizers. This makes the lines headed back to the line clutches end group more tightly and take up less deck space-so they're less of a tripping hazard.

I mounted my mastblocks on a modified mast step, so they're off the deck and I didn't need to drill holes for the blocks in the deck. I figure, if the upward pressure on the mast blocks deforms the 3/16" steel plate that was formed using a 70-ton press brake, I'm basically screwed anyways... 

* Lanocote was a very good idea.*  Using it or TefGel is a good idea to help prevent galvanic corrosion between the stainless steel bolts and the aluminum hardware. It looks like you used Harken ESP deck organizers. They're aluminum and really need to have Lanocote on the screws, and mylar washers under the heads of the screws.

Blocks inside the boom aren't necessary if you've got a winch at the end of the line. I got rid of the two-to-one purchase that my boat had for the outhaul, since I've got a ST40 winch at the end of the outhaul line, and am going to be using for the third reef I had put in the main last week.

* BTW, when you drill the holes oversized, you're supposed to fill them with thickened epoxy, not just smear epoxy on the inside of the hole. If you are using 1/4" fasteners, you should drill the fastener holes 3/8-1/2" in size, and then fill with thickened epoxy, and then when the epoxy has cured, you drill the 1/4" hole for the fastener. If I were you, I'd go back and properly pot all of the fastener holes-it'll be a PITA, but it will mean your deck won't get wet, rot and delaminate.  
* 
There are basically two reasons for doing this. First, the thickened epoxy seals off the core material and prevents water from getting into the core. Second, the thickened epoxy is very strong against compressive forces, so you can tighten down on the bolts and not crush the deck.

Generally, I try not to drill through the inner laminate by drilling the oversized holes using a Forstner bit. If you have the inner laminate intact and use a backing plate or large fender washers, the chances of the hardware coming loose are minute. You should also countersink the top of the fastener hole slightly, which gives the sealant a place to form an "o-ring" and makes the seal very reliable.



craigtoo said:


> 1) Lewmar clutches are backwards....when you open them up there's a little picture of a winch with an arrow. No.. they didn't make a mistake. The winch actually goes there. Moron.
> 
> 2) Drill oversize holes for all through deck attachments... this is so you can get the epoxy smeared on the exposed deck core. I could have done a better job on this. I'll be re-doing some of my mast base blocks for this reason. I'm losing sleep thinking that I scraped off epoxy as I put the bolt in ... even though I let it dry it was a tight fit...
> 
> ...


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Craig-
> 
> First, if I were you, I would have angled the deck organizers. This makes the lines headed back to the line clutches end group more tightly and take up less deck space-so they're less of a tripping hazard.
> 
> ...


*That I did....! Thanks SD....*


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Glad to to help.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

FWIW on my CS 36T I have 3/8 on all my control lines like traveller, vang, pole lift, foreguy. 3/8 is fine on the hand and anything bigger for your boat would be a waste of money, and a lot of money if you want blocks tht will run 1/2 or 7/8 smoothly. Pole controls are pretty much set and forget...my foreguy trims through a clutch and works fine without any leverage or turns. The pole lift runs through a clutch to a winch, needed mostly just for lifting the heavy pole...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I agree, and I've standardized all the lines on my boat to be 3/8" lines. The only ones that aren't ATM are the genny sheets, but when I replace them next season, they'll be 3/8" lines as well. Already replaced the mainsheet, topping lift, main sail halyard, spinnaker halyard, boom vang, etc.

I'm also slowly color coordinating the sheets and halyards to make things a bit less confusing. The main sail halyard and main sheet are both white with blue flecks. The spinnaker sheets and halyard are white with red flecks, the genoa halyard and sheets will be white with green flecks.

The topping lift, boom vang, boom break and such will be white or black. The reefing lines will be paired off with red fleck, green fleck and blue flecks for the first, second and third reefs-I'm recycling the old halyards for use for the reefing lines for the moment.



sailingfool said:


> FWIW on my CS 36T I have 3/8 on all my control lines like traveller, vang, pole lift, foreguy. 3/8 is fine on the hand and anything bigger for your boat would be a waste of money, and a lot of money if you want blocks tht will run 1/2 or 7/8 smoothly. Pole controls are pretty much set and forget...my foreguy trims through a clutch and works fine without any leverage or turns. The pole lift runs through a clutch to a winch, needed mostly just for lifting the heavy pole...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Nice job, Craig!


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Thanks Fast!

I've run everything 3/8 except halyards... They are 10mm T-900
Main Sheet is 1/2 fuzzy comfy line.

Main sail halyard is Green Fleck (I thought everyone's was...) and it's on the Starboard side along with the first reef.

[place tongue in cheek]

SD
*I STRONGLY RECOMMEND YOU IMMEDIATELY RE-RUN your MAIN HALYARD TO BE GREEN FLECK AND BE SURE IT IS ON THE STARBOARD SIDE.* If someone is crewing with you who is accustomed to the regular set-up needs to reef the main while you are busy fighting the helm in a sudden surprise squall with strong seas, visibility at zero, during the night, when you're in a busy shipping channel, the last thing you want is a delay in getting that reef in. Additionally, I've noticed on another thread that you didn't add the glow in the dark labels saying "pull here to release" to the fore-end of your line clutches allowing said crew member to instantly release said halyard in said conditions...(I mean....considering they are backwards and all wouldn't that be prudent?)

     ...can I get a Bite me?

Primary Jib is red fleck on Port.

My control lines are just pretty. I wanted lots of colors. I didn't get yellow yet. Cunningham is black, Outhaul is Blue, Vang is Blue Fleck, You see my traveler lines there at red and green. (I know solid colors will fade. I don't care they look cool now!)

Yellow will be for Chute stuff.. Halyard or pole controls.

...and wait till you guys see my "Christmas Jacks"... I'm working out the bugs of my custom Lazy-Jacks now... I may even put lights on them. (Yes I'll run the switches aft so I don't have to go forward in a snow storm to turn off the lights...)

Thanks again guys!

craig


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Nice work Craig and great documentation for others. Thanks!


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Nice work Craig, but know that you have worked out most of the kinks in your system, wanna do mine, really the boat's not far from you?


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

T37

You supply the beer... I'll sail over and we'll put a plan together! I'll be back from Poland and other places in about 3 weeks. I love Tartans...sorry I didn't get to board her a few weeks ago...

Cam
Thanks... I'll have more in process pics to post. I'm glad it's been somewhat informative. Just going through the learning process in public! heh...

craig


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

10mm is the metric equivalent of 3/8".  DUH!!!

As for Main sail halyards, the Green Fleck standard was only used on monohulls... on multihulls, we generally used glow-in-the-dark lines, but they're too hard to find nowadays in the right diameter and length mainly due to EPA regulations making their manufacture too expensive.  They're a lot easier to avoid when you capsize the boat, if you can see them clearly. Unfortunately, there are no good current vendors for glow-in-the-dark lines, so we've resorted to using the same lines a lead mine sailors. 

As Lewmar clutches are standard on my boat, they're not backwards.  Everyone else's boat is. Just like my cameras... Nikons focus backwards compared to most other brands... 

You might be a red-neck if you have Christmas lights on your boat all-year-long.



craigtoo said:


> Thanks Fast!
> 
> I've run everything 3/8 except halyards... They are 10mm T-900
> Main Sheet is 1/2 fuzzy comfy line.
> ...


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Sailingdog. I am sorry to be the one to correct the error of your ways....!!!

0.375 in = 3/8
0.393 in = 10mm

This is a HUGE difference when it comes to holding power on rope clutches...! I would refer you to the following links...
 

 

Inch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lewmar Home

Additionally.. you'll note that this small difference between metric and "standard" (although I hate that word for it...) causes major issues for the Lewmar clutches... I refer you to this thread... (this may be a stretch...) 

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/44459-leading-halyards-aft.html 

Heee HEeee... can I get CD or CAM to back me up here?? Don't know how long I can hold out with the SD abuse alone!!!!    


craig


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

ROFLMAO...  Craig, hate to break it to you, but no one is coming to rescue you. 

BTW, the guy who started that thread is obviously a complete whacko.  Probably chases his tail and runs in circles too. 

The reason all the other clutches are backwards is because they're using primitive cams to hold the line. 

And to quote my friend GUI, 

BITE ME!!!!!


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

YAY!

(or... to lengthen my message to the minimum...!)

YAY! YAY!


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

*After*

Notice the bent U-Bolt.

Don't Do That! It looks neat but won't work.. too much force... I'll use those holes for a floppy standup mast base block for the vang and re-route my 2nd reef through the stand up that is currently used for the vang...(first port block from center now)

craig


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

*After - Closer...*

Another Close up..

So.. what is the plural of Mast Base Blocks?

Bevy?
Gaggle?


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

If you'll notice.. I still need to get some shims under to make the angles perfect. ... vertically. In this shot the main halyard looks off but it's not. It may have been loose.

Once you locate the block on the deck, you drill one hole at the forward end, run the line through and mark the other holes on the deck. This ensures that you get it set-up right.... 


If your deck isn't flat or you can't perfectly orient the blocks under the lines then you'll need shims.. No Problem! That's why I'm not too worried about having to re-epoxy everything... I have to install the shims anyway!

craig


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

*Traveler*

I like to trim my main sheet for wind... getting the top batten parallel to my boom then use the traveler for adjustments in direction etc.

For me.. the longer the traveler the better... It gives me more options.. I didn't want to go beyond the hand rails...

If this proves ineffective, or a safety concern.... I'll just trim it off.. two cuts and two screws.. easy peasy...


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

*Belowdecks...*

In this shot you'll see that some places were "solid" down to the headliner.. where some holes weren't.

When you try this.. you'll be frustrated that you can't get stainless bolts exactly the right length.

We cut many bolts.. becase we didn't want them below the headliner where possible.

Also... We used a 1in hole saw to cut all the holes in the headliner. Plugs were readily available at our local hardware store. Remember though! This will limit you to a 1in. Fender washer. Is that enough? You decide.

Cutting a section of the headliner out and installing a backplate is also an option. Totally depends on the construction of your boat.

Don't put the plugs in for a couple of months though so you can inspect regularly for leaks...


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

The mast base blocks look really nice. I thought about replacing mine but it seems I am still thinking about it.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Craig-

I think you need to call Terminex. It looks like you've got a bad case of fiberglass termites.


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## feiny (Jul 17, 2001)

My boat has a double ended main sheet. I originally got rid of it as too much, but then found that I missed it. One end comes off from the traveler over the companionway and the other goes forward then back thru the organizer, clutch and then can be put on a winch if needed. I need the one on the side if I have the dodger up and can use the winch for fine tuning or in a blow, but I seem to use the center line more especially single/short handed.
Feiny


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## cfreeman (Feb 1, 2001)

Boy, you sure put a lot of thought and work into this. Nice drawings, I wish I knew how to make those.

I have just two (one too late) comments for you...

1) Regarding #3 & 4 of your "lessons learned"... "smearing" some hardware store 60 minute epoxy isn't the way to seal the core. Most core material (balsa or foam) is not made to take a localized compressive load such as you are producing at the mast base. With the compression of those bolts you're going to break the seal caused by the epoxy and you may end up with leaky core and a delaminated deck. The right way to do this is to use West System epoxy with their colloidal thickener; while you are buying it, get their "guide to common boat repair problems" and look for the "mounting deck hardware" section. Basically, after drilling the hole, mount an allen wrench in your drill chuck (you may need to shorten the short side a little) and use it to shred all the core out of the hole back at least 1/4". Then mix the epoxy with the thickener to the consistency of thick peanut butter. Use one of their syringes to inject it into the space; muck it about so all voids are filled. If you have a fairly small hole like 1/4" or so, take the matching hex bolt with a smooth shank and coat it with a mold release material; I use dry teflon lubricant like Sailkote. Stick it in the hole and let it all set up a half day, then bang the bolt back out. Now you have a nice clean hole with a strong waterproof core of epoxy. No leaks or compression problems there. Now bed your bolts through that. I prefer Sikaflex 295 UV for bedding but there are other options. This technique works great with big holes, like chainplates, too.

2) Look into the Scott Boom Brake for a preventer. Hard to get (they are made in England) and expensive but it's awesome; you can control the gybe with a 3mm line and two fingers. I've used one on the Caribbean to Maine run now and it's fantastic.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

I re-rigged Victoria and simply replaced all lines with new. Replaced the wire-rope halyards with all Sta-SetX and they work great. I didn't modify anything that Sabre laid out except to add a 6" wire to boom end of the Vang to keep it away from the mainsheet.

The ratio on the main is fine with me because I'm trimming with a winch. IMHO a 38' (or 34') boat exerts too much strain to even think about trimming by hand.

The vang adjustment is way under-powered. Rather than adding more blocks, I'm going with a rigid Garhauer vang.
Garhauer Marine Hardware -7246260

My halyards are midships. I'd rather that they be farther aft, but I'm not changing it because a) it will really crowd the companionway area, b) I don't want anymore holes in the deck and c) once the jib goes up in the spring, it stays up until fall so having the halyard out of the way (midships) is actually a plus. I just don't want an extra halyard (the main) in the cockpit.

I'm keeping the pole lift/downhaul on the mast because in a race situation, it's the bow man's job anyway & I don't want the extra lines crowding my cockpit. I'd recommend leaving them on the mast using the logic that if you're so short handed that you can't afford to send someone forward to tend the pole or if it's blowing so hard that you don't want someone to go forward, then the spinnaker shouldn't be up anyway. Just my humble opinion 

Good luck - you'll save a bundle doing the re-rig yourself. I assume that you'll be doing all the splicing yourself.

BTW - My centerboard is now stuck. Lowered it to check the cable and jammed it by cranking up too hard. Rigged the centerboard un-sticker but it didn't work even after some taps with a hammer. Will try again later at the dock.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BTW, I didn't do any of the splicing for my new running rigging, since I found a source of running rigging that was very affordable and only charged $10 per splice.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

cfree
Nope, not too late. I'm planning on re-bedding the hardware soon. I appreciate your information. Sailingdog also provided his description of how to ensure that the core stays dry.

Sabreman,
I can't believe that the Centerboard Banger didn't work! I also appreciate your suggestions on the pole-controls.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I found it impossible to inject "thick peanut butter" consistency thickend west system through a syringe. Maybe mayo consistency.

Mango Madness J30 #185 rebuild


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

*Garffin*

Bump for Garffin


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Bump de bump


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