# 36'-40' wolves in sheep's clothing



## ScuzzMonkey (Jun 26, 2006)

I have been trying to find production yachts that were designed by reputable, respected architects and have good communities around them (I think those things are probably related); the Cherubini Hunters, for instance, or the Catalina 38 (designed, respectively, by John Cherubini and Sparkman & Stephens). I've been doing a lot of digging around looking for models that fit that basic criteria but it occured to me that I could probably just ask here and find folks that already know more than I could ever find out on my own.

Are there any other fairly common production cruiser models that were designed by architects that are better known for their performance boats?


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

Interesting idea you bring forward!
CT-38 (Alan Warwick)
Cascade 36 (Robert Smith)
Choy Lee 38 (Ray Richards)
Ericson 38 and E-39 (Bruce King)
Baltic 38 (Doug Peterson)
Tartan 37 (S&S)

Just for starters.......

L


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Alsberg Bros Express 37.

Express37.org

example:

1986 Express - Alsberg Bros 37 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

70 odd sum made, good one's change hands pretty quickly. Great glasswork, tough boats, and their sailing record speaks for itself.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Some of the Gary Mull designed Rangers can be 'sleepers'.. The entire C&C line would probably fall within your parameters, and I'd throw in the Ray Wall designed CS boats too even though he's not necessarily a 'name'. Tony Castro had some good success in racing in Britain and went to design a number of newer CS models, as well as a sprinkling of Jeanneaus and others.

Also the Ron Holland designed Ericson 36 and 33 are great boats and another that comes to mind is the German Frers designed Niagara 31, though the last two are outside your size limit.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Ray Wall not a name? He is in England. Below is a partial list from Sailboat data.

The Nicholson 55 was an awesome boat in her day. 

I am a bit biased though.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I understand his stature/accomplishments.. but I wonder how many would know to list him as one of the greats.

He's very much a gentleman too, and nearly a neighbour of your's , Brian!


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I know he lives in Sidney and keeps his Quanta at Marina Park. When I was working on a boat out there last year I kept an eye out but didn't see him. His Quanta looks like it just left the showroom.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

My boat fits the spirit of your enquiry if not the letter.

Maurice DeClerq designed an out and out IOR boat for a Canadian racer.

The New Bombay Trading Company acquired the hull mould and built a few in the late 70s with a cruising interior and I guess a smaller rig, calling it an Explorer 44. 

I have had mine now for about a year and a half now and am getting used to planning passages expecting to average 6 knts +. On a recent passage from Dominica down to Martinique the open water section of 25 miles or so was done at 8knts +. Yes I propably should have tucked in the second reef but whoooo hoooo!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

TQA said:


> ....... On a recent passage from Dominica down to Martinique the open water section of 25 miles or so was done at 8knts +. Yes I propably should have tucked in the second reef but whoooo hoooo!


...Gotta love those tradewind island hops... esp when you can tee that up with the swells like in Bequia Channel, it can be surf city for nearly any boat!


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Robert Perry has designed some fast boats. Esprit 37 for one.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

mitiempo said:


> Robert Perry has designed some fast boats. Esprit 37 for one.


... and ICON!..


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Might be out of the OP's price range, and I don't think Icon is for sale. Awesome boat.

Perry is probably best known for the Valiant 40 and the fleet from Taiwan. But he has designed some very fast boats. His book is great too, well written, easy to read and full of interesting points about design.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The flying tiger series of boats are very fast boats from Perry too. Icon, just plain one of the BIGGER kewl local boats. I'd probably add The Carr in there too, granted a typical SC70......Icon being a custom......

Ron Holland also has a few Jeanneau designs too, One that was also built by Cal in the Bangor Punta ownership days of Jeanneau, Cal, Ranger, O'Day among other boat brands. Tony Castro is the Arcadia/Sun Dream 28/sun light 28 along with sunshine 36/38/regatta variants. Just over 700 IIRC of the arcadia versions of that hull. 

Marty


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

The Perry/Schiff design Meridian is for sale.

1984 Custom 70' Schiff/Perry design Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## ScuzzMonkey (Jun 26, 2006)

Clearly I came to the right place. Thank you all! You've given me a great list of fresh ideas to look into.

I think most of Perry's designs are pretty performance oriented, even the cruisers, and I like his sensibilities, but for the most part they are indeed out of my price range. There was actually a one-off design of his that was (maybe still is) up on the market up here recently that was in my price range, but, well, it was a one-off. The reason I was looking at production boats is not just the general affordability, but also the fact that with larger fleets out there, the designs have generally gone through the wringer and there are a lot of opinions available about them. The most common problems will have been uncovered and fixes documented, and if you have questions about anything, you can almost always find someone with an answer to them. If you decide you like one, then you can usually find one on the market, somewhere. I'm more price-constrained than geography-constrained, so that's a big plus.

There are probably some great one-off boats out there, too, but unless you get lucky and happen to be near one that is a good deal, it's too expensive to run around the country looking at each of them. Even if you do, it's hard to be sure what problems might be lurking that only the owner might know about. Surveys are all well and good but there are a lot of qualities about a boat you only really get to know by sailing and living aboard in a lot of varied conditions. I like being able to hear what different people think of the designs having had that experience... the custom models, you generally have to rely on only the previous owner, and of course he is trying to sell it.

Anyway, that's a good list, I'm going to start digging. Keep 'em coming if you know any others!


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

What might your budget be?


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## ScuzzMonkey (Jun 26, 2006)

Around $60K, all in... whether that's a pristine $60,000 sail-away specimen with all the trimmings, or a $30,000 fixerupper with $30,000 of fixing up to do, I'm fine either way.

Actually, I'm less interested in some of the trimmings. That Alsberg 37 Express that someone posted up above looks interesting, and it's right here in Puget Sound so I'll probably take a look, but I get the impression with it, and many others similarly outfitted, that the owners are tacking on big $$$$ to cover the alleged value of all the electronics and instrumentation they have installed. That's understandable, but most of that stuff actually represents negative value to me; much of it I don't want or need, and it's just going to be a maintenance and power sink that I'm going to be fixing or replacing anyway. In many cases they've gone "best of breed" in every category and put together a suite that doesn't integrate nicely anyway, which is another sort of headache. I would almost rather find the $30,000 version and have the opportunity to install exactly what I want (with the added bonus of knowing how it is installed) instead of paying extra to inherit someone else's boatload of maintenance headaches.

Again, this fits in with my preference for production boats... there are usually enough of them out there that I can find one that hasn't been all duded up with extra gear if I look hard enough.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Whatever you buy, allow about 20% of your budget for upgrades and fixes.


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## ScuzzMonkey (Jun 26, 2006)

I thought the rule of thumb was, 20% of the cost for outfitting a new boat, 40% for used?

Anyway, I've always thought it was a little strange, the assumption apparently being that no previous owner, ever, has performed all the same tasks that the purchaser is going to have to perform to get her ready to go using that chunk of change.

I am more of a mind to evaluate on a case by case basis instead of just setting that amount aside ahead of time. There are boats out there where the previous owner is far more industrious and skilled than myself that are in better shape than my current tub and will probably require far less than my current regular annual maintenance budget the first year or so after purchase; there are others that are deficient even by my standards that will take a lot more to get seaworthy. That's sort of what I was getting at when I said I have $60K to spend all in; how much of that is initial purchase and how much is repair and outfitting may vary.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Could be 40% or more depending on level of maintenance or neglect. Anywhere from moisture in the decks - most boats have some - to replacing outdated electronics and rigging.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Then again, I think I am at 20K for boat, and 40-50K after! where does that put me?!?!?!?!???? aaack!

Good way to think about, 60K budget for all, including fixing the stuff the other boat needs or does not need.

The E37 is a faxt boat, sails well around here, most place well when raced too. Good luck on choice.

Marty


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

I think the greatest spread in design by anyone would be Charlie Morgan's racing successes like Paper Tiger or the Heritage bid for the America's Cup and the far different yet popular cruiser's, the Morgan Out Island 41's. Take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

We have sheep for lunch often. That includes every J/35 we've come across, Beneteaux, and the occasional NY42.








1981 J/36. There are a bunch of them in the Puget Sound area, last I heard, and one for sale on Ebay in Marion, MA now. We've managed to hit 13 knots with our full main, spinnaker, and 150% genoa up at the same time. It was blowing harder when we got to 12.5 with just the reefed main. Fast is fun. Cruising is comfortable. The combination is great.


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## ScuzzMonkey (Jun 26, 2006)

You know, that's interesting, I never really even considered any J-boats, even though they are obviously up to par in the performance category. I just always think of them as racers. The ones I have been aboard have been a little... _austere_ below, for a liveaboard cruiser. How would you rate the J-36 in that regard?


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

Not all of perry's boats are expensive. His Islander boats are very good looking, the 34 is a great boat (also sold as the more expensive Nordic).


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Look for an older J35, and J37. IRC both have "c" versions that are a bit nicer than the non "c" versions, ie J35c and J37c. some things like a slightly shallower keel etc too. Not sure if the SA is a bit less or not. A couple in my YC just headed south from Edmonds last Sept to do the bahaha and to the pacific islands on a 37c. THere was a 35c here in the sound for sail, altho about 20-30K higher in cost than the 3-4 J35's. IIRC a 36 is a pre 109 style boat. 

Marty


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

ScuzzMonkey said:


> You know, that's interesting, I never really even considered any J-boats, even though they are obviously up to par in the performance category. I just always think of them as racers. The ones I have been aboard have been a little... _austere_ below, for a liveaboard cruiser. How would you rate the J-36 in that regard?


The J-35c is a great boat, but you'll have trouble finding one for under 100k. There is one for sale at Sail Northwest for around 89k I believe. You're thoughts about the instruments on the E-37 IMHO are missing the forest fore the trees. The largest cost of running a boat like this is the sail inventory. If the boat has a good one, you're literally many thousands of dollars ahead. The glasswork on the E-37 is superior to the J-boats. One great piece of advice I was given when we bought our boat was, other than immediate repairs on obvious issues, is don't change a thing until you've sailed the boat for a year. Write down what you think you want to do (in your case, electronics) and let it sit. If it's still on your list as a 'must do' in a year, then do it. On our list, there were several things that dropped off after a few months and money reallocated to other projects. I can say from experience that it's saved many many dollars.

And who knows? You might find that the previous owner has done just the right thing for that boat even if it's something that initially seems odd to you. Bear in mind that while brokers like to draw your attention to nice electronics if a boat has them, electronic are rarely the driver in the pricing of the boat. In the case of the E-37, there's an active one design fleet in SF, the boat has a great and well earned reputation, and there are only 70 or so hulls. When/if you find an E-37 in good shape, they usually move quickly. We own and E-34, the 37's smaller sister. Only 16-17 built, and the same quality as the 37. If you go the J-boat route, the 35c is a nicer boat than the 36. Good luck!


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

The J/36 is has wood veneered (ash, I believe) bulkheads, bunks, doors and furniture with mahogany trim. See the pix on the ebay boat for sale. Floorboards are teak & holly. The white gelcoat overhead helps to brighten the interior. It is quite "cruisy" to look at. My wife & I spent two weeks in Maine bopping around with just the two of us: it's easy to handle, and as reported, sails fast. See the review here on Sailnet.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

paulk said:


> The J/36 is has wood veneered (ash, I believe) bulkheads, bunks, doors and furniture with mahogany trim. See the pix on the ebay boat for sale. Floorboards are teak & holly. The white gelcoat overhead helps to brighten the interior. It is quite "cruisy" to look at. My wife & I spent two weeks in Maine bopping around with just the two of us: it's easy to handle, and as reported, sails fast. See the review here on Sailnet.


Agreed, and it will cost much less than a 35c. The trick is to find the 'right' one on the market that's been well maintained. Of course that's pretty much the case with most of the boats we've mentioned.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

puddinlegs said:


> Agreed, and it will cost much less than a 35c. The trick is to find the 'right' one on the market that's been well maintained. Of course that's pretty much the case with most of the boats we've mentioned.


Last I checked, other than some of the MOST expensive brands/boats etc, ANY boat over a few years(10-15) old might need a good checking over...even some of the EXPENSIVE boats. like older swans have some teak deck screws etc getting into deck cores etc.........

That 35c locally, come to think of it, is about x3 of the 35's listed IIRC.

marty


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> Last I checked, other than some of the MOST expensive brands/boats etc, ANY boat over a few years(10-15) old might need a good checking over...even some of the EXPENSIVE boats. like older swans have some teak deck screws etc getting into deck cores etc.........
> 
> *That 35c locally, come to think of it, is about x3 of the 35's listed IIRC*.
> 
> marty


And it's the cheapest one I've seen on the market! And agreed... older boat, good survey, figure on some repairs to the degree that you can afford or want to deal with, and you might have a boat!


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## ScuzzMonkey (Jun 26, 2006)

puddinlegs said:


> The J-35c is a great boat, but you'll have trouble finding one for under 100k. There is one for sale at Sail Northwest for around 89k I believe. You're thoughts about the instruments on the E-37 IMHO are missing the forest fore the trees. The largest cost of running a boat like this is the sail inventory. If the boat has a good one, you're literally many thousands of dollars ahead. The glasswork on the E-37 is superior to the J-boats. One great piece of advice I was given when we bought our boat was, other than immediate repairs on obvious issues, is don't change a thing until you've sailed the boat for a year. Write down what you think you want to do (in your case, electronics) and let it sit. If it's still on your list as a 'must do' in a year, then do it. On our list, there were several things that dropped off after a few months and money reallocated to other projects. I can say from experience that it's saved many many dollars.
> 
> And who knows? You might find that the previous owner has done just the right thing for that boat even if it's something that initially seems odd to you. Bear in mind that while brokers like to draw your attention to nice electronics if a boat has them, electronic are rarely the driver in the pricing of the boat. In the case of the E-37, there's an active one design fleet in SF, the boat has a great and well earned reputation, and there are only 70 or so hulls. When/if you find an E-37 in good shape, they usually move quickly. We own and E-34, the 37's smaller sister. Only 16-17 built, and the same quality as the 37. If you go the J-boat route, the 35c is a nicer boat than the 36. Good luck!


That's a good point about the sail inventory on the E-37, or any boats that have been primarily used for racing, which are often much better outfitted in that respect than cruisers. My comment about the instruments was intended more generally, and I'm not convinced that it isn't a significant factor in the list price. I can look at two boats of the same model and vintage listed on Yachtworld and almost invariably the one that is more tricked out with gadgets is priced higher.

I think that's an understandable impulse by owners who have invested a lot and want to see some return on it. I suppose it's possible that there is a real value correlation there, that folks who spend time putting in new instrumentation also spend more time on upkeep, but I don't think many of them are so dispassionate when they price their boats to mentally exclude all the money they have sunk into them. That's certainly not the picture I've gotten from owners or brokers while looking, anyway.

That's excellent advice about letting things stay as they are for a year, though. I don't know how practical that would be if I did buy something that had been primarily used for racing; some of the basic "necessities" are pretty different, but in general I like the idea. Actually, that's sort of one of the things that is driving me nuts about looking for boats right now... the fact that it can take a year of intimate ownership before you really know a boat makes it hard to realistically evaluate and put a value on a model from a personal perspective. I feel super lucky that our first boat has worked out so well, knowing now that we didn't know a damn thing when buying it; how can I get lucky like that again?


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## ScuzzMonkey (Jun 26, 2006)

I see that J35c you are talking about; if that's the cheapest you've seen then I think it's fair to say those are going to be price well out of my range, even assuming a little haggling.

Lot of other good ideas in this thread, though, I have a lot to chew on still.

EDIT: I did just notice a vanilla J35 for sale on Lake Union, same era, $40k less. What exactly are the differences between the regular and the 'c' models, anyway? Specs look pretty similar.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

ScuzzMonkey said:


> I see that J35c you are talking about; if that's the cheapest you've seen then I think it's fair to say those are going to be price well out of my range, even assuming a little haggling.
> 
> Lot of other good ideas in this thread, though, I have a lot to chew on still.
> 
> EDIT: I did just notice a vanilla J35 for sale on Lake Union, same era, $40k less. What exactly are the differences between the regular and the 'c' models, anyway? Specs look pretty similar.


Here you go:

J35c Frontpage

J35 Frontpage (this one seems to be much more finished below than sany I've seen in person)

The one year rule certainly wouldn't preclude adding a jib furling system or a simple dyneema lazy jack system if you're primarily cruising. Electronics aren't usually a big sales driver because they're quickly outdated, and in the big picture of boat ownership (moorage, basic maintenance, etc...) they just aren't that large a part of the overall expense of running a j35 or e37. A few months of 36-40' slip fees around Seattle will buy you a very very nice electronic package. $4k buys a headsail. $250 buys you a halyard, etc... A good rule of thumb for the operating costs of a boat doubles for every extra 5' of LOA. Apologies in advance if you already know this.


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## ScuzzMonkey (Jun 26, 2006)

Thanks for the links! They never really draw a clear distinction, but if I'm reading them right, basically the only significant difference is some of the interior finish work? Most of the other differences in spec seem pretty minor from what I can tell.

I apologize, I think we've been talking past one another on the electronics issue. I'm not arguing that they are a sales driver, quite the contrary (at least in my case, for many of the reasons you cite)! But they are a _pricing_ driver, which can make it more difficult for someone like me to establish a base value for a given model.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The 35C has a longer cabin trunk and much nicer fitted out interior. They seem rare as hens teeth and so command more money. Another briefly listed boat in the PNW recently was a nice looking Nordic 34 - it was on YW one morning and within hours the link was broken. I imagine that on went quickly. Also rare but that would be a great choice too - kinda like a mini Passport 40.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

CaptainForce said:


> I think the greatest spread in design by anyone would be Charlie Morgan's racing successes like Paper Tiger or the Heritage bid for the America's Cup and the far different yet popular cruiser's, the Morgan Out Island 41's. Take care and joy, Aythya crew


I was very tempted by an early Morgan 45 footer from the 70s, beatiful lines but the one I looked at was a total project. STILL ???????????????


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## ScuzzMonkey (Jun 26, 2006)

I've seen the latest iteration of the Nordic 40, the Norstar 40, and it seemed well-built and nicely designed (Perry again, of course). I could imagine the 34 being equally well-conceived. My only real gripe with the 40 was that there was less available cockpit-accessible storage than we currently have in our 33-footer but that's the price you pay for that nice aft cabin, I guess. I imagine the 34 would face similar constraints, which brings me full circle to why I am looking for another boat in the first place: more room!


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

While not a fast boat (although a very good sailor), the Catalina 36 meets your other criterion. It boasts one of the largest production runs of any boat in it's size. The manufacturer has a reputation of supporting it's owners, no matter how old the boat or how recently they have owned it. The C-36 has a very large, active, and helpful owner community. Lots of C-36 on the market at a variety of price points depending on age and condition.


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## AdrianJL (Oct 12, 2020)

Remember - new boats are for people who can't afford old ones!! I agree with the 40%


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