# I have had it with inboards



## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

The beast in the bowells of the slug has cost me a lot of money, aggravation and lost sailing time over the past four years of sailing around Britain

It is running at the moment - but is stuck in forward gear - so far I have replaced the bearings, engine mounts, rear coupling, exhaust system

the dynastart frightens me to death, the fuel line is less than perfect. The installation is 50 years old and is squeezed into a stupidly small space

every job on the engine involves keyhole surgery

The cabin smells of diesel and as a back up I have to live with an 2.5 hp Honda that is always in the way - I am perpetually moving the outboard on and off the bracket, into the cabin, into the cockpit, onto the pushpit rail. I also have both diesel and petrol on board.

In addition three times the prop has got caught up in fishing gear - I know it is fishing gear because it is blue polyprop - one lot did for the stern drive the other for the cutlass - I then had to put the boat aground and remove the stuff from around the prop

with an outboard I could have brought the thing aboard, cleared the ropes off - replaced the shear pin and got under way

so one way or another the beast has one more year with me - much less if it craps out on me again

I hate the sound of the outboard and find the low thump from the diesel lump quite easy to live with

By the the end of the summer I hope to either find a replacement boat that has an outboard in a well

or

if work flow lets me down I shall just chuck out the old beast and cut a well in the stern locker of the slug - right in line with the rudder.

I could ;put an outboard on a bracket - but some of the waters I face as I work my way up to scotland means that the outboard will spend part of its life stirring nothing more than wet air as the boat pitches around

Has anyone done this on a small boat - and how hard is it to design a well that gives the outboard enough room to breath and does not rip the back of the boat up - transferring the load to the rest of the boat does not seem like a simple thing to do

this is the beast






and this is the brochure for the mirror offshore

Mirror Offshore sales brochure « Keep Turning Left

I would like the well to be under the round hatch at the back of the boat

any suggestions and enlightenment gratefully received

Dylan


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

What are whinging about, some of us would kill to have that much excess to the engine. That black in the water looks more like soot rather than oil. If It was mine I would rebuild that beautiful donk, might even have a go yourself it not that hard.


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## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

SimonV said:


> What are whinging about, some of us would kill to have that much excess to the engine. That black in the water looks more like soot rather than oil. If It was mine I would rebuild that beautiful donk, might even have a go yourself it not that hard.


believe me it is darned tight in there

I have wasted so much time on the engine - mounts, coupling, cutlass - all gone west - engine currently stuck in forwards, unreliable starterthen there is the dynastart (which a bit of engineering history)

propping the the thing up has hoovered up too much money, time and enthusiasm

it has managed to contrive lots of things to go wrong and I can see that it has more to come

in addition, our coast are littered with fisherman's stuff - their darned polyprop gets round the prop - three times so far - bloody frightening

if you want the engine come and take it out

I really love sailing - I hate staring at the engine wondering how I to fix the latest problem

volvo no longer support the engine for spares

the only time you ever see these things are at ag shows driving mangle choppers

and I am slowly sailing around the UK in the boat - I have the north of scotland to deal with

so the beast has to go

cutting a well might allow me to keep the boat

Dylan


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm with you I would rather have an outboard then an inboard that seems 10x more expensive and far harder to work on. I sailed my Chrysler C-26 a few hundred miles with out an engine when I first bought it and only used the engine to get in and out of port, knowing that I had a sailboat to sail not motor. My C-26 had much more interior room then my E-32 does because it had an out-board. 
As far as the niose, I found the outboard even being a 2 stroke was much quieter then our diesel.. Find some on to buy your Volvo and get a good 15 hp outboard and you will be much happier.


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## Jetexas (Apr 3, 2012)

I slapped an outboard bracket on the transom of my 27 and ran a British Seagull for a couple months while replacing my diesel. It might have been better with a larger outboard, but it couldn't push the boat anything like the inboard can. Rough waters and strong headwinds were a nightmare.

I had a Westerbeke 10 Two that wouldn't run with rusted out engine rails and a bad transmission. I yanked it all and found a salvage Kubota-based motor that was still currently being produced for $500. I yanked all the marinized parts off of it, rebuilt the transmission and spent another $2k on a brand new long block. Cut new oak stringers, stuck all the marinized parts and transmission on the new kubota long block, and put it all back in.

Two years running so far with no problems. Starts right up every time. Pushes through the wind and waves far better than an outboard.

Starters and alternators are about $80. I could replace one a year, and it would be 10 years before it would cost me what they wanted for one Westerbeke starter for that old 10 Two.

I really think the key to a good inboard experience is to update to something that's still being made, so that parts are easy to get and not prohibitively expensive.

As for your fishing line on the prop problem, I don't really have any good advice.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

I have a 15 hp 4 stroke, long shaft with the big "sailboat" prop on it..vented fuel locker out in the cockpit

Quiet, reliable smooth and plenty of power.. I like it... I also have an over the stern rudder so it's not like it's cluttering up the back...

My buddy has an inboard diesel refit...seems "reliable" but takes up saloon room and there is always that "diesel smell" lingering in and on everything....


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Bet you won't get fifty years of service from an outboard.


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## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

jrd22 said:


> Bet you won't get fifty years of service from an outboard.


50 years of aggravation

although to be fair this one has only given me four years of angst, mental trauma, financial assualts, honk of dieselly bilges.

My previous boat had an outboard and I used to clean the bilges with a dustpan and brush.

now ithe bilges are a sloppy polluted scummy stinking soup down there - it is a a case of pump, sluice, pump every time you sail, bilgex, pump a bit more, a squirt of washing up liquid

cutlass glands are designed to leak - what is all that about?

Dylan


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

jrd22 said:


> Bet you won't get fifty years of service from an outboard.


Some of them old SeaGulls have been around for awhile...

Beside if it does go out...it's a 20 minute "refit"...


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

For the state of your inboard, it might be worth going to an outboard. However, in general I believe inboards are much more reliable. Might be worth poking around the boatyard to see if there are any stern locker outboards you could examine.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I was just making the observation that your current engine has given 50 years of (mostly) reliable service. The fact that it is now on it's last legs and needs replacement shouldn't be a condemnation of inboards in general as they are, by your own example, exceptionally reliable and long lived, as well as being very economical. Diesel is a "safe" fuel to carry on board, gas not so much. 
In your case going to an outboard may make sense, it depends on a lot of factors; how long you intend to keep the boat, what your cruising plans are, the value of the boat, etc.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

A diesel in an 18' boat? How odd. I could not get the sound on your video but you seem to have sufficient room to work on it. IF it starts that easy it has good compression. I'd get the injector cleaned and do the same for the high pressure pump.
It isnt shaking any more'n my old Yanmar 1GM. The stuck in gear thing is a problem I cannot advise on.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I've not much experience with outboards in rough waters, but would your comments about it stirring wet air apply to an o/b with a really long shaft (25" or more?). You also need a good raising / lowering mount to get the o/b in properly.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

I had a Coronado 25 for 10 years on San Francisco bay, lots of nasty chop inside and big seas outside. It had a pretty good well arrangement, with a 20" shaft it virtually never came out of the water. 15 HP was all the power I needed, boat weighed about 4,500 lbs.If you go to an outboard I suggest you get the longest shaft that will fit and at least 10 HP with a "High thrust" prop. If I was going to do it over I would get electric start, as much charging capicity as you can get, and remote cockpit mounted controls. If you need to use a bracket, suggest you fix the inboard.

Paul T


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## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

Frogwatch said:


> A diesel in an 18' boat? How odd. I could not get the sound on your video but you seem to have sufficient room to work on it. IF it starts that easy it has good compression. I'd get the injector cleaned and do the same for the high pressure pump.
> It isnt shaking any more'n my old Yanmar 1GM. The stuck in gear thing is a problem I cannot advise on.


it is a tough little boat

I am slowly sailing around the UK and filming as I go






the Mirror was designed for the Daily Mirror newspaper as a yacht for the working man

they thought the working man needed a decent engine and separate heads

The boat has been great for the journey

small for sure

- tough - it was built before they invented osmosis

triple keel so it sits on the mud and I can get a stable platform for filming just by showing it onto the nearest mud bank

the engine does provide dry heat for winter sailing and plenty of electrical power for charging the 18 camera batteries I have with me

it pushes the boat along at 4.5 knots and the power it delivers to the rudder has got me through several pretty hairy moments going through the many bars that are across the UK harbour entrances

the one at wells is a lulu as the channel takes you at right angles to the breakers - each crest you have to trun into the waves and then turn back to the correct direction of travel in the troughs

I could not imagine getting through it with an outboard where I had to hang over the transome vectoring the thing while it was grabbing nothing more than wet air

the rig has been great as I can drop it single handed so that allows me to go upstream under bridges and I can raise the mast again to sail along some wonderful waterways

the galley is under the hatch so you can stahnd up to cook and do the washing up

however.....

the slug is bloody old - 50 years old and the engine installation is ancient

I am 58 and some of the most miserable moments of my life have been spent staring down that tiny hatch trying to work out which particularly innovative way it has devised of doing the dirty on me

groping in the stinking oily bilges for dropped spanners or grub screws

I have asked mechanics to look at the job in hand

- but they take one look at the boat and the access and either walk away or put in an f off price - the last one wanted £1200 for pulling the engine and putting it back - anything he had to do to it was extra

he warned me that replacing the engine mounts was going to be a £2,000 job

can't even get engine mounts for it anymore - the last lot had to be fabricated out of Range Rover mounts.

I am afraid that diesel inboards are for the affluent

replacing the engine with a more modern unit would - as I understand it - cost around £5,000 for the complete job

spending that on a boat that is only worth £1,000 is insane

hence the desire to learn about an outboard in a Well

so....

does anyone here have experience of creating one

Dylan


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

We use a 2hp 4 stroke honda o/b on our 10k# Alberg, it pushes her directly into headwinds of sustained 15 knots at half throttle. Ditching our diesel was very liberating - no stink and no more dealing with the crap that goes along with an inboard. 

I am glad I didn't listen to those who hand out advice freely but don't actually have any real experience with going with simple and small power (not a swipe at anyone here, I mean in life in general). In flat water we get hull speed with the 2hp easily. Never past half throttle. The motor weighs 27 pounds, and I made up a bracket that is easily removable (so it's not ugly on the stern 24/7).

Check out my blog for a couple of small videos of it in action. I will of course post more info on it as we encounter different situations out there. I view the motor as a "10%" supplement to my SAIL boat, not as an integral part of my boats existence. That designation is reserved for my sails. Best of luck!


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Dylan part of you stick has been sail a SLUG have fun and dont waste money 

I got this crazy habit of taking the time to fix the system CORRECTLY ONCE and then enjoying having a boat were things function correctly as i like to take people sailing have faith that the boat works and its safe to use


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

No hands on experience in building one but would suggest looking at similar boats factory equipped with a well. It would be good to be able to tip the motor up when needed. If you cut a hole in the boat make sure you can keep the structural strength intact. You may have to add bracing similar to a bulkhead arrangement? It may turn out to be a bigger job than just fixing the inboard?

Paul T


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

chrisncate said:


> We use a 2hp 4 stroke honda o/b on our 10k# Alberg, it pushes her directly into headwinds of sustained 15 knots at half throttle. Ditching our diesel was very liberating - no stink and no more dealing with the crap that goes along with an inboard.
> 
> I am glad I didn't listen to those who hand out advice freely but don't actually have any real experience with going with simple and small power (not a swipe at anyone here, I mean in life in general). In flat water we get hull speed with the 2hp easily. Never past half throttle. The motor weighs 27 pounds, and I made up a bracket that is easily removable (so it's not ugly on the stern 24/7).
> 
> Check out my blog for a couple of small videos of it in action. I will of course post more info on it as we encounter different situations out there. I view the motor as a "10%" supplement to my SAIL boat, not as an integral part of my boats existence. That designation is reserved for my sails. Best of luck!


Something does not make sense. You are saying you get hull speed on a 10,000lb boat with 1hp (2hp engine at half throttle). It takes about 18hp to get my 11,000lb Bristol to hull speed, which is in good agreement with the normal rule of thumb that you hear.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

MarkSF said:


> Something does not make sense. You are saying you get hull speed on a 10,000lb boat with 1hp (2hp engine at half throttle). It takes about 18hp to get my 11,000lb Bristol to hull speed, which is in good agreement with the normal rule of thumb that you hear.


We have had a 2HP Honda for many years on our fishing boat. It pushes a 12foot Jon boat with 2 people and all our fishing gear at 5+ MPH at 6,000 feet of elevation. Not too bad for a boat shapped like a brick. We towed a large fishing boat back at reasonable speed at about half throttle, lots of thrust for a small motor. No experience with one on a larger sailboat but with no headwind or chop and if you can keep the prop in the water it should move the boat as Chris pointed out. I would think that wind and chop could be the limiting factor?

Paul T


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## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

dabnis said:


> We have had a 2HP Honda for many years on our fishing boat. It pushes a 12foot Jon boat with 2 people and all our fishing gear at 5+ MPH at 6,000 feet of elevation. Not too bad for a boat shapped like a brick. We towed a large fishing boat back at reasonable speed at about half throttle, lots of thrust for a small motor. No experience with one on a larger sailboat but with no headwind or chop and if you can keep the prop in the water it should move the boat as Chris pointed out. I would think that wind and chop could be the limiting factor?
> 
> Paul T


during one of the broken periods I used the honda 2.3 hp on the back on the slug - in flat water it gave us 3.5 knots

but.....

our uk coastal waters are not renowned for their flatness

hence the desire to keep the prop in the water and the thoughts of creating an engine well

Dylan


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

dabnis said:


> We have had a 2HP Honda for many years on our fishing boat. It pushes a 12foot Jon boat with 2 people and all our fishing gear at 5+ MPH at 6,000 feet of elevation. Not too bad for a boat shapped like a brick. We towed a large fishing boat back at reasonable speed at about half throttle, lots of thrust for a small motor. No experience with one on a larger sailboat but with no headwind or chop and if you can keep the prop in the water it should move the boat as Chris pointed out. I would think that wind and chop could be the limiting factor?
> 
> Paul T


Nonetheless I believe that the usual "1hp per 500 lb displacement" guideline for engine size selection for sailboats is a reasonable one. That formula certainly gives you a generous amount of power. My 11000lb boat comes with 18hp as standard, and 24 as an option. With the 24, that means I can get close to hull speed at half throttle, thus being nice to the engine. The 18 would be working harder.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

dylanwinter1 said:


> during one of the broken periods I used the honda 2.3 hp on the back on the slug - in flat water it gave us 3.5 knots
> 
> but.....
> 
> ...


I would think that keeping the prop in the water would be your starting point. All the power in the world won't do you any good if you can't keep the prop in the water. Many times on SF Bay I have watched boats with transom brackets screaming their engine's guts out and going virtually nowhere.

Paqul T


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

We have a 9.9hp Yamaha on our c27. It is mounted on a bracket that can be raised and lowered on the 2 aluminum shafts that run from the bottom of the transom to near the top of the transom. All I would change would be to go to a slightly larger engine (as we often have trouble with current at some of the narrows around here) and a longer shaft to ensure it stays in the water in rough seas. Very reliable and being able to raise and lower it allows for service to the top end from the boat when in the water


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

this thread seems like it will be entertaining to follow....I'm in!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

MarkSF said:


> Something does not make sense. You are saying you get hull speed on a 10,000lb boat with 1hp (2hp engine at half throttle). It takes about 18hp to get my 11,000lb Bristol to hull speed, which is in good agreement with the normal rule of thumb that you hear.


Remember, Chris has a well faired hull so low friction.

On my 15,000 lb 34 footer I have a 3gmd rated at 20 hp, but I never go to full rpm. At the rpm I run, figure I am using 10 hp to run at the 6.5 knot hull speed and this would be into a 20 knot head wind and 5 foot seas.

I think simplicity of outboard is good, but friend has one on his 30 footer and has problems with prop coming out of water, even though it is a long shaft mounted close to the water.

If you install a well, will that effect you sea-worthiness?

For your prop getting fouled, could you install one of those prop savers that cut the line?

prop protector, prop protector line cutter, line cutters

Regards


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Interesting replies. I think that for rough water and head winds, unless you have a very good well arrangement with the engine mounted at least one foot or so ahead of the transom, an inboard is hard to beat. If you can retrofit compatible motor mounts, fix the leaks, go through the fuel distribution system, new injector (if needed), fix the gear box or linkages, and do a thorough bilge clean up it may be less work and cost than ripping the boat open to build a well? it appears you already have everything in place, just need some repair and cleanup to do. I am wondering why the motor mounts have to be so flexible? In a commercial fishing boat we had a Detroit 3-71 diesel which was mounted rock solid to the stringers, it didn't move at all. Maybe all that engine movement is part of the fuel leakage problem, and perhaps effects the engine/transmission alignment causing the gearbox to be stuck in forward?

Paul T


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

dabnis said:


> Interesting replies. I think that for rough water and head winds, unless you have a very good well arrangement with the engine mounted at least one foot or so ahead of the transom, an inboard is hard to beat. If you can retrofit compatible motor mounts, fix the leaks, go through the fuel distribution system, new injector (if needed), fix the gear box or linkages, and do a thorough bilge clean up it may be less work and cost than ripping the boat open to build a well? it appears you already have everything in place, just need some repair and cleanup to do. I am wondering why the motor mounts have to be so flexible? In a commercial fishing boat we had a Detroit 3-71 diesel which was mounted rock solid to the stringers, it didn't move at all. Maybe all that engine movement is part of the fuel leakage problem, and perhaps effects the engine/transmission alignment causing the gearbox to be stuck in forward?
> 
> Paul T


I agree with you comments. From the video that engine is moving around a lot, a lot more than my 3gmd that is on similar looking rubber mounts. My suggestion would be to pull the engine out and go through everything, replace mounts if needed, install with a good alingnment and I think you will be good for 20 years. That engine looks like a rugged machine in pretty good shape. You cannot buy simple diesel engines like that now. For the conditions you sail, I think your inboard diesel is you best bet.

I considered and outboard but think about these issues: You now need to carry and store gasoline (much more dangerous than diesel), an outboard has an electical system (ignition and now most are going solid state- not good in a marine environment), one big wave could swamp and stall the engine. In real critical situations when you need you engine the most, the outboard may fail you.

Regards


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## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> I agree with you comments. From the video that engine is moving around a lot, a lot more than my 3gmd that is on similar looking rubber mounts. My suggestion would be to pull the engine out and go through everything, replace mounts if needed, install with a good alingnment and I think you will be good for 20 years. That engine looks like a rugged machine in pretty good shape. You cannot buy simple diesel engines like that now. For the conditions you sail, I think your inboard diesel is you best bet.
> 
> I considered and outboard but think about these issues: You now need to carry and store gasoline (much more dangerous than diesel), an outboard has an electical system (ignition and now most are going solid state- not good in a marine environment), one big wave could swamp and stall the engine. In real critical situations when you need you engine the most, the outboard may fail you.
> 
> Regards


thanks for your input

the reason you can't buy sim ple diesel engines like this anymore is beause they gave up making them.... better designs have been created

I fear that as things stand with the old inboard it is more likely to be unreliable than an outboard

hence the back-up power on hand from the little honda outboard.

I love sailing - and hate messing with engines

I do not have the time, patiencve or manual dexterity to keep the museum piece going

I do not have the money to pay some-one else to fix or replace it

hence my dilemma

If money were no object I would obviously keep an inboard - but I would junk the volvo for a more modern engine

but that would be a lot of money

the worst that can happen with an outbboard is that I need to replace it

£1200

the worst that could happen with the inboard is £5,000 worth of work

Dylan


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Dylan,

Nice to 'see' you. Always a pleasure.

From my end though I'm afraid I'm of no use in this thread. I loath engines probably as much as you do except when they are running smoooothly. That said give me a diesel anyday and were it me I'm afraid I'd follow TomMays advise. Pull the thing out, rebuild it and go on as you were with a new untroubling beast. 

Anywho , I hope you find the advice you need,

cheers to you

Andrew B


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

dylanwinter1 said:


> thanks for your input
> 
> the reason you can't buy sim ple diesel engines like this anymore is beause they gave up making them.... better designs have been created
> 
> ...


I faced your delema a couple years ago. My yanmar 3gmd is 30 years old. It was running poorly. I looked into going with an outboard but in the end decided this was not the best answer. I went through my engine replacing the water pump, starter, engine filter housing/ filter/ engine fuel lines/ fuel pump and removed the diesel tank and cleaned it and added a racor filter. Also added a return fuel line at the engine filter with a bulb pump to facilitate priming. Now after two years the engine has not failed me. I perform a good inspection prior to leaving harbor and on return. I also flush the engine with fresh water after every use. Like you I cannot afford a new engine. One thing I like about the old engines (the direct sea water cooled) is they are much simpler than the new type. As far as I know no one builds a direct sea water cooled. I think this has less to do with "engines are built better today" than the fact is it is actually cheaper to build a freshwater cooled engine than a properly marineized direct sea water cooled engine. I am actually on the lookout for a cheap used (even if it needs a rebuild) yanmar 3gmd engine as a replacement if I ever need one. I am hoping, and believe possible, to get another 20 years out of my 3gmd without too much major effort- probably will need to replace the exhasut manifold at some point.

Maybe you could find a used (inexpensive( in good condition yanmard 1gmd if the volvo is not suitable.
Good Luck


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

dylanwinter1 said:


> thanks for your input
> 
> the reason you can't buy sim ple diesel engines like this anymore is beause they gave up making them.... better designs have been created
> 
> ...


Kind of looks like you are going with an outboard. If so, whatever kind of mount, well or bracket, go with lots of HP, electric start/charging, longest shaft you can get and "high thrust" prop. Good luck.

Paul T


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Get a long shaft outboard and bolt it on a stern mount.

Or, fulfill your hatred for your boat, because as soon as you touch a saw to the hull you'll reduce the value of the entire boat to zero.

Considering how the mechanics of the present situation have given you a beating, I can't help think that planning to cut a motor well in the boat is just an excuse for trashing it.

There just might be reasons that dynastarts and motor wells never became popular, and generally aren't to be found on the market today.

If you hate the boat so much, sell it. Get rid of it. Or have fun with the chain saw, it's your boat.


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## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> Get a long shaft outboard and bolt it on a stern mount.
> 
> Or, fulfill your hatred for your boat, because as soon as you touch a saw to the hull you'll reduce the value of the entire boat to zero.
> 
> ...


you speak good sense

although with a duff inboard engine the slug is worth £800 top price

so I do not have a lot of value to lose

the boat suits my purposes

I do not hate it

- just the engine

The boat is more than up to the job of sailing around the UK

but the inboard is not up to it - unless I invest even more time and money in it

a mirror offshore with a functioning outboard well is probably not that much less valuable than an intact offshore with a duff engine

Dylan


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Dylan,
Sorry to hear that you are having major issues with your old Volvo diesel inboard. Since Volvo no longer supports that engine and any parts that may be available are astronomically expensive I think you should pull it and see if you can sell it or just junk it. 
If you had an engine that still had reasonably priced parts like my 45 year old Atomic 4 I would say keep it and make it work. I have the same engine as Tommays which is petrol fueled and much quieter then most diesels. Since it is an old engine it needs regular maintenance which is not that difficult to do. I think the A4, at 20-30HP is too much engine for your boat though.

Good luck with however you proceed.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

Figure three to four horse power per ton of displacement. I think the one cylinder Volvo diesel was seven horsepower. A Tohatsu 6hp Sail Pro model with the standard 25" extra long shaft high-thrust propeller has a factory-installed 12V, 5 amp charging system, a rev limiter and external fuel tank. Costs about $1500 US dollars. The 25" long shaft is going to keep the prop in the water and if it actually did pull some air into the prop, no problem because of the rev limiter. You will not over speed the engine and damage it. For charging the camera batteries, you should look into solar power. A small panel of 20 watts would do it at about an amp even on a cloudy day. You could pull the old diesel, disassemble it and see what it would take to get it into reliable condition. You could then part it out and get enough money to buy the outboard.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

LakeSuperiorGeezer said:


> For charging the camera batteries, you should look into solar power. A small panel of 20 watts would do it at about an amp even on a cloudy day.


This is England and Scotland we're talking about. How do solar panels perform in near darkness and torrential rain?


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

We have a fair (very slick) hull, no prop aperture and nothing at all dragging (no transducer, etc), perhaps that is why the little 2 hp pushes us well. I have read that the 90's vintage Honda four strokes put out a bit more power than rated, however I don't know if this is true or not. 

The standard rules of recommended horse power to displacement ought to come with a disclaimer of intended usage. Will our 2 hp push us against the ebb of the bay, into strong headwinds and seas above three feet? I doubt it, but I will gladly accept that trade off (plus I'd just sail in those conditions anyway) for keeping it simple and being as close to ummotored as I can be right now. If you really want to keep it simple, you eliminate the inboard. It's a huge part of the pie chart of cost of ownership, and this isn't just my opinion. 

I'll make sure to post some video next time we're out in flat water motoring of the GPS speed over ground (I have no knot meter, shocker huh? ). Maybe we're not at hull speed, I dunno. It seemed like it though..


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

in the video it shakes just like most one cylinder marine engines. the black smoke? when was the last time the injector was changed or the timing checked. I have a one cylinder Yanmar that needed a little attention when I bought the boat. changed injector, new injection pump, set timing, changed fuel lines and filter, new water pump, and dripless shaft seal. cost for parts was less then $ 1000 now it runs like new and should be good to go for another ten years. hard to get 10 years out of an outboard that is used to deliver the boat for long distance racing. if you are willing to use an outboard then you have never used a good diesel. I would rebuild or replace the diesel


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

Considering he loathes engines, I'd say take the old one out and put either the Tohatsu or a 9.9 Yamaha long shaft with big prop on her. Do not cut a well as you don't need one. Instead buy a good heavy duty swing up swing down outboard mount. Measure carefully where you mount it and it'll be in the water in all except extreme conditions. and even then it will not be out much.

Without the engine, he will have more room for stores.

I happen to love old diesels and think diesel fuel smells good. 

In Marsh Harbor, I met a guy on an old 26' boat who was having trouble with a leak from somewhere aft of his engine and he had no idea if it was the raw water leaking or the shaft leaking. His installation was similar to yours and he really did not want to try to crawl over that engine. I was with my caving friends and as none of us mind small places, I crawled over the top of the engine and my skinny friend crawled beside it and we were able to ID and fix his leaking prop shaft. Sometimes, you just gotta crawl in there and do it.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Frogwatch said:


> ... snip...
> Sometimes, you just gotta crawl in there and do it.


Or work on losing some girth!


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

> In flat water we get hull speed with the 2hp easily. ... Check out my blog for a couple of small videos of it in action.


Sorry, Chris. Your boat is nowhere near hull speed in that clip. You're going maybe 4 kts, not 6.2 kts. There is a HUGE difference in the power requirements of about 2/3 hull speed and actual hull speed.


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## sailguy40 (Feb 6, 2010)

Inboard diesels is what steered me away from 3 really good deals on much bigger boats I was looking at a couple months ago. Also the fact that I don't know anything about them, plus it was questionable if they even ran and I have heard some bad stories regarding inboards. I will most likely stay with 26ft and under for my next boat because of this. I have a 2-stroke Nissan 9.8 outboard on my Oday 22 which displaces just over 2600lbs, well more like just over 3000 with supplies and a couple people. Never had power issues with this motor on my boat, I get hull speed at about 60% throttle regardless of conditions. I have had problems with the stern rising out the water and leaving my prop in the air, this usually happens if I go wide open in good sized swells. I done this off and on when I first got my boat until I realized I am not going any faster once I reach hull speed. Here is a clip of me running it wide open... 



 I love being able to just take my motor off, put it on my cart and bring it home to work on it or shop it.

This all said, I also realize outboards are not perfect either. Mine is giving me issues at this very moment. Starts up fine but once running, if I throttle too low or at idle it kills. I replaced fuel filter, hoses, spark plugs and took apart and cleaned carburetor (4 times) still having same issue. Going to try fuel treatment tomorrow and see if I have any luck if not I will have to shop it. It all started when I forgot to run it dry and left it for a few months last winter. Carb got very dirty and I ran it with older gas (mistake of course) but I did clean it all out when I was stuck outside the harbor and had no problems after. I then decided to clean it out again and replace fuel filter and sprayed it all down with carb cleaner just to be extra sure, then right after this is when I started having problems.

One thing I don't understand is why the motoring in higher wind and waves anyway? I mostly need to motor when there is not much wind and the water is flatter because of it. When there are wind and waves I have a sail or two up and my motor is not on. I say the only time I am motoring is when I am just getting out the harbor or coming in and I am not motoring very long. Dylan I would go for a nice new outboard and remove the old diesel since your boat is not very big. Why not try a 6hp long shaft? I see them online new for under $1500. I also see good used 9.9hp for same price.

At last anyone know what the most reliable motor is? A Minn Kota trolling motor or aka a "poor man's outboard" :laugher My friend had a 40lb thrust on his Macgregor 21 and we were able to get it out the marina, in the gulf and do some sailing and come back. Obviously though the only use for something like that is limited to just that... getting in and out the harbor and in calm waters. No chance motoring against wind and waves unless its a very light boat. Its 6lbs of thrust for every 400lbs of displacement to move the boat. I still remember when I first bought that Cal 25 (my first sailboat) the guy only had a Minn Kota 50lb thrust on it. I remember that puny motor pushing that heavy boat out the harbor, funny thing is it pushed it out in the lake and back. Strange because with the formula above, it should not move a boat over 3200lbs with 3 people but it did :laugher


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MarkSF said:


> Nonetheless I believe that the usual "1hp per 500 lb displacement" guideline for engine size selection for sailboats is a reasonable one. That formula certainly gives you a generous amount of power. My 11000lb boat comes with 18hp as standard, and 24 as an option. With the 24, that means I can get close to hull speed at half throttle, thus being nice to the engine. The 18 would be working harder.


Bit of a mistake to assume running a diesel at half throttle is "being nice" to it...

As a general rule of thumb, you want to be running a diesel over its extended life at roughly 80% of load... I think more sailors likely abuse their engines over time by running them too lightly, than by overworking them...


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Dylan, hanging an OB in a well just aft of the helm is gonna wreak havoc with the sound quality of your at-the-helm narration.

At the risk of living up to my title, I have to ask- is you disdain of inboard engines based on the finicky nature of yours, or is the engine's recalcitrance a result of your disdain? Mate, you've been rebuilding the engine on the instalment plan since you set off on your quixotic counter-clockwise quest. All of the maintenance has been reactive instead of proactive, leading to more repair, more frustration, more cost, more time lost.

You really think you are going to treat a beat-to-crap spotty outboard (who are we kidding, DW, you're not gonna buy the best one you find, but the cheapest one you find, so we alreayd know how this is going to go) any better?
Figure out why it is stuck in gear (likely the linkage got bent or out of adjustment when you installed the motor mounts- easy fix), RandRandR the head and injector, and keep going. It is work you can do yourself (easier to work on than a Seagull) with two screwdrivers a hammer and a wrench or three for less than the cost of a dodgy O/B.


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## Familycruisers (Dec 15, 2011)

How often do you motor in heavy seas? Anyone? In heavy seas I'm either sailing (which I love), or moored up in a protected anchorage or gunk hole.
Outboards are simple machines, btw the fella thats having idle issues. If you use ethonal gas, stabil it or it will be junk in a very short amount of time. Only other thing is did you remove and clean the jets?

I have a MD18, if or when it goes I will be pulling and parting out the diesel and putting an outboard on. Probably the Tohatsu (basically a Mercury), but maybe an old 2 stroke Johnson saildrive 9.9. Those were bullet proof. 
You live in a different area, different tides, diffent circumstances. Do what you thinks right. Look at a Cape Dory 25 for an example of a boat with a O/B well. I would just mount the bracket though. Try and find remote controls, those are handy.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

SlowButSteady said:


> Sorry, Chris. Your boat is nowhere near hull speed in that clip. You're going maybe 4 kts, not 6.2 kts. There is a HUGE difference in the power requirements of about 2/3 hull speed and actual hull speed.


I edited my post, maybe you're right about that - I really don't know. Thing is before she had a rough bottom with some slime and a few barnacles, as well as a large three bladed prop and aperture (plus other crap hanging off). So to me it may seem the same hull speed as before we were dragging a building (hence being slowed) and now were slick but barely powered.

Either way, it's faster than I even thought she'd be with barely a motor so I'm happy nonetheless. I'll try to pick a day with little to no current/wind/waves and see what I can do speed over ground wise and post the results.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

bljones said:


> Dylan, hanging an OB in a well just aft of the helm is gonna wreak havoc with the sound quality of your at-the-helm narration.
> 
> At the risk of living up to my title, I have to ask- is you disdain of inboard engines based on the finicky nature of yours, or is the engine's recalcitrance a result of your disdain? Mate, you've been rebuilding the engine on the instalment plan since you set off on your quixotic counter-clockwise quest. All of the maintenance has been reactive instead of proactive, leading to more repair, more frustration, more cost, more time lost.
> 
> ...


I'd seriously ask Dylan to consider a small small o/b - no gears, reverse is achieved (if your boat can back up that is) by turning the motor 180, and the motors are extra cheap - mine in excellent condition was a whopping $400. If something serious goes on it (doubtful, it's easy to maintain), I'll chuck it and buy another.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

MarkSF said:


> Nonetheless I believe that the usual "1hp per 500 lb displacement" guideline for engine size selection for sailboats is a reasonable one. That formula certainly gives you a generous amount of power. My 11000lb boat comes with 18hp as standard, and 24 as an option. With the 24, that means I can get close to hull speed at half throttle, thus being nice to the engine. The 18 would be working harder.


The guideline is based on the assumption that you can get at least 2 knots against a force 5 wind two miles from a weather shore, that is moderate waves of some length (3 to 6 foot wave height), many whitecaps, small amounts of spray, and 16 to 20 knot winds.

There is always the chance of engine failure. Check weather reports every day and if you are sure you can make port with winds above this, do so, else get 100 miles off shore and have a para-anchor to keep from drifting more than a nautical mile per hour with the boat oriented at 50 degrees. Makes for a smooth ride in extreme weather. See Lin and Larry Pardey's book Storm Tactics for dealing with a hurricane in a 24 foot boat, with no engine.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

MarkSF said:


> This is England and Scotland we're talking about. How do solar panels perform in near darkness and torrential rain?


Expect about 5 hours per day of output at half the rated amount because panels on a sailboat are not usually oriented towards the sun. With clouds figure about half of that. What really needs to be done here is to have a look at what the actual power needs are for the boat. If he wants to run at night then he will probably need two panels at 135 watts each with 4 amps needed for 12 hours of darkness. If the OP is just charging camera batteries, then how many batteries at a time and what is the amperage for everything and the hours to charge. Multiply by 17 volts to have some voltage drop for voltage regulator to get watts, divide by 5 hours full sun light and multiply by 24 hours per day to get amount of useful output rating of panels. Then multiply by 2 because of decreased output if panels not pointed directly at sun and another 2 just as a safety factor or for clouds. That's the number of watts you need for solar panels. The Chinese are making some inexpensive sonar panels now so you may want to check into this.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> I'd seriously ask Dylan to consider a small small o/b - no gears, reverse is achieved (if your boat can back up that is) by turning the motor 180, and the motors are extra cheap - mine in excellent condition was a whopping $400. If something serious goes on it (doubtful, it's easy to maintain), I'll chuck it and buy another.


So far as I know Dylan isn't considering taking The Slug across the North Sea, or anything like that. However, his coastal hops do take him across some open water, with all the associated nastiness one might expect in that part of the world (e.g., he's not talking about an engine for tooling around the harbor, or cruising the ICW). As such, he's going to need something a bit beefier that the sort of little dinghy kicker you seem to be suggesting. Being able to buck the wind, waves, and currents he's likely to encounter is probably going to require something more like 5 or 6 hp, at least. Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of sailboats are way over-engined (probably including mine). But I don't think that 2 hp is gonna cut it in this particular application.

Chris, just because your little 2 hp outboard will move your Alberg through a nice calm channel at something a bit faster than zero doesn't mean that it has enough power to get a boat off a lee shore when it really has to. Try taking your boat out in some real weather, _beyond the channel makers_, and see if that little kicker is enough to get you anywhere against a 25 kt wind, or even a 15 kt wind (real, measured, wind speed; not just you eyeballing it and saying, "It was blowing like snot!"), before you tell us all how 2hp is "enough". Frankly, in any wind above 10 or 15 kts I doubt you'll be able to go to windward fast enough to maintain steerage with the engine/boat you have.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

SlowButSteady said:


> So far as I know Dylan isn't considering taking The Slug across the North Sea, or anything like that. However, his coastal hops do take him across some open water, with all the associated nastiness one might expect in that part of the world (e.g., he's not talking about an engine for tooling around the harbor, or cruising the ICW). As such, he's going to need something a bit beefier that the sort of little dinghy kicker you seem to be suggesting. Being able to buck the wind, waves, and currents he's likely to encounter is probably going to require something more like 5 or 6 hp, at least. Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of sailboats are way over-engined (probably including mine). But I don't think that 2 hp is gonna cut it in this particular application.
> 
> Chris, just because your little 2 hp outboard will move your Alberg through a nice calm channel at something a bit faster than zero doesn't mean that it has enough power to get a boat off a lee shore when it really has to. Try taking your boat out in some real weather, _beyond the channel makers_, and see if that little kicker is enough to get you anywhere against a 25 kt wind, or even a 15 kt wind (real, measured, wind speed; not just you eyeballing it and saying, "It was blowing like snot!"), before you tell us all how 2hp is "enough". Frankly, in any wind above 10 or 15 kts I doubt you'll be able to go to windward fast enough to maintain steerage with the engine/boat you have.


I was backing out of the slip last week in about 15 knots of wind, which was trying to turn the boat the wrong way. To get the boat facing down the fairway I had to back and fill several times, using nearly full power in forward. I was surprised, as normally in a light wind, it only takes just above idle. So engine size selection should also take into account manoeuvrability and reasonably quick stops in reverse.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

MarkSF said:


> I was backing out of the slip last week in about 15 knots of wind, which was trying to turn the boat the wrong way. To get the boat facing down the fairway I had to back and fill several times, using nearly full power in forward. I was surprised, as normally in a light wind, it only takes just above idle. So engine size selection should also take into account manoeuvrability and reasonably quick stops in reverse.


Yes. People forget that the force exerted on a boat (or anything) by the wind is a function of the _*square*_ of velocity. As such, a six knot wind will exert something like four times as much force as a three knot wind. And a twelve knot wind will exert something like sixteen times as much force as a three knot wind.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> I edited my post, maybe you're right about that - I really don't know. Thing is before she had a rough bottom with some slime and a few barnacles, as well as a large three bladed prop and aperture (plus other crap hanging off). So to me it may seem the same hull speed as before we were dragging a building (hence being slowed) and now were slick but barely powered.
> 
> Either way, it's faster than I even thought she'd be with barely a motor so I'm happy nonetheless. I'll try to pick a day with little to no current/wind/waves and see what I can do speed over ground wise and post the results.


Good idea, and also check on fuel consumption. The simple formula for speed is to take the square root of the horsepower, (the square root of 2 horsepower is 1.414) multiply by 15 and divide by the beam of the boat in feet. The Pearson 30 beam is 9.5 feet. This works out to 2.2 mph. The fuel consumption I estimate will be about a third of a gallon per hour where the air cooled gasoline engine will have a specific fuel consumption of about one pound per horsepower over an hour's time. Gasoline weighs about 5.5 pounds per gallon. It looks like you will get 7 miles per gallon. Lets run that engine wide open for half an hour, the other direction for another half hour and average the speed. Speed can be determined by GPS. Start with a full tank, and refill after an hour with a measured amount. You can take the distance run in nautical miles as measured by GPS and divide by the amount of fuel to get miles per gallon. Lets see how close real numbers get to the estimate.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

This is not really directed at anyone, but it amazes me how many people have no idea how that noisy thing in your bilge works, or how to keep it working. What do you do when you are a few miles out and it stops? Here in the states I know everyone is spoiled with Sea Tow.. hell, I've seen people call for a tow only to find out their fuel line (outboard) came unplugged....buy a book and a cheap tool set and learn. To the OP, I understand your frustration when things don't work like they should. Maybe your engine has simply worn out. However, usually, short of catastrophic failure, I.E. spun bearings, throw a rod, crack a ring; they can be repaired and made to be reliable again. Having had outboard powered boats and inboard boats, they both have strong points and weak points. Not all of us are out sailing the oceans with no time schedule. Some of us require an engine to ensure we can get back to the marina in a timely fashion to keep the jobs that pay for these things. i couldn't agree more regarding the bragging rights of being able to transit the earth under sail alone. However, not everyone has the skill or time to do this. On the fast and narrow tidal river I keep my boat on, bringing a 30'er in under sail is not the best option. Even the "old salts" throw out an anchor and bring a dink out to guide their disabled sailboats in. Maybe you can do this, maybe not. I do know that regardless of how you attach the outboard, you will eventually have issues with the prop cavitation. I'll argue that point with anyone. Is it more convenient to have a motor that you can simply unbolt and take home with you? Depends. I find working on my engine in the comfort of my cabin with the stereo playing quite enjoyable. But, I also don't mind working on the outboard in the comfort of my garage. As I said, there are pro's and con's to both. You have a smallish size boat for an inboard. Space may not be there to effectively work on it. But you also have to consider what it would be like hanging over the stern fiddling with an outboard....FWIW


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

Well Dylan have you asked for help on British forums for reasonable priced help, parts, used engines.I thought Bukh made small one cylinder engines that were used in a lot of lifeboats on cruise ships, freighters over in Europe. Probably around 8hp ,if one of them could be found used for the right price would be good. I myself have a 7 meter 3000 pound sloop with a 2 stroke 9.9 hp longshaft on a really good over $200 bracket. To get back into slip against stiff wind, tide or current takes all it can give where as normally it is more like 1/3 throttle. If you had a sudden windfall you could put in an electric saildrive easier than a well. But the battery bank,solar or wind and saildrive cost would buy you a new boat. As you are rambling around the coast if you do not have to be out until the conditions are decent an electric outboard might be a solution for you. Take your time and find the best solution that meets your needs and budget. Luck with your search mate.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Word on the street is that Mr. Winter has himself a new boat, replacing the slug.


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## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

bljones said:


> Word on the street is that Mr. Winter has himself a new boat, replacing the slug.


I have....

I have bought a new boat « Keep Turning Left

so does anyone want to buy a slightly abused but still tough old boat

the slug replacement has an outboard in a well

D


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

dylanwinter1 said:


> I have....
> 
> so does anyone want to buy a slightly abused but still tough old boat
> 
> D


I look forward to your ad where you rave about the value added by the inboard engine!


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## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

scratchee said:


> I look forward to your ad where you rave about the value added by the inboard engine!


well, it has only failed to start twice - once froma blocked filter and the other because I had the fuel turned off

it has great compression

it makes a lovely noise

new engine mounts

new cutlass gland

it uses no oil

what is not to like?

it is stuck in forwards gear

D


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

dylanwinter1 said:


> I have....
> 
> I have bought a new boat « Keep Turning Left
> 
> ...


Looks like a good well arrangement with the mount a foot or so forward of the water line. with a long shaft motor you shouldn't have any trouble with the prop coming out of the water. Also, good access to the motor controls especially if you have a forward mounted shift lever. I just got a new Tohatsu 6HP 4 stroke for my fishing boat. Havent used it yet but like the layout. Tohatsu makes a 6HP extra long shaft with a larger diameter reduced pitch prop that should work well on a sailboat. Other manufacturers may have a similar offering? A charging feature may help but I don't think they put out all that much, 5 amps is not much but better than nothing?

Tohatsu 6hp Four-Stroke Outboard Model # MFS6CUL

Paul T


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## rigbee (Sep 27, 2008)

I only have a 17 Monty but I do enjoy the ability to pop off the OB at any time, for what ever reason.I'm actually too chicken to commit to a bigger boat.

Cheers!


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## rigbee (Sep 27, 2008)

Just read Paul T comment and I'll add that I got the 6hp sail pro nissan/Tohatsu OB and I'm impressed with it. Last season was my first sailing season with my boat and I'll shamelessly admit I only burned about half of the 3+ gallon tank the entire summer/fall. I had to just go out some days and run around with the motor just to get through the break in period.
I didn't use the alt on the motor so can't comment on its charging ability(or lack there of).


Fabe


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Hey Dylan, 

She's a good looking girl ... and I kind of like the idea of a boat called George. Looks in better condition than you implied ... what needs doing ? 

Andrew B


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## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

tdw said:


> Hey Dylan,
> 
> She's a good looking girl ... and I kind of like the idea of a boat called George. Looks in better condition than you implied ... what needs doing ?
> 
> Andrew B


needs some internal woodwork

cooking facilities, a bit of rigging, door on the bog, electrics need beefing up

up until now it has been mostly day sailed

simple stuff

no rush to swap the boats over - the Humber can be a pretty rough place so prefer to bash the slug than scratch a new boat

it should sail a lot better - and no inboard stress

D


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## twenty1knots (Mar 4, 2012)

Dylan,

Congrats! What motor/engine do you have on the new boat?


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## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

twenty1knots said:


> Dylan,
> 
> Congrats! What motor/engine do you have on the new boat?


at the moment is an 20 year old two stroke

so I will use the money from selling the slug for buying a new outboard

D


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Carefully measure the well to make sure a new four stroke outboard will fit. They are bulkier than a 2 stroke.


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