# The Cruising Life, by Jim Trefethen, and Cruising Financials



## Jim H

I've been slowly reading through _The Cruising Life _by Jim Trefethen, and I have to admit that it's making me think twice about some things. (Sorry this is a long post.)

Even if you don't read this book, it's worth skimming the reader reviews at Amazon.com. I have to like a book that is both praised and hated by other readers. Some dislike his preference for wood boats. Some think his wiring diagrams will burn your boat to the waterline. Other's think he's an unreformed ad man who started with a lot more money than other cruisers.

The funny thing is, the criticisms might be right, but at the same time the arguments he makes about "the cruising kitty being the most important part of the cruise" are pretty thought-provoking. He has an opinionated, argumentative tone about how to plan finances for cruising, which I appreciate as one man's opinion to consider.

If I'm reading this right, he and his family started cruising in the early 1990s. His two kids were still school-age, but he was in his early fifties. They bought a $25,000 wood sailboat and took off from the east coast with minimal refurb, and made it to New Zealand before deciding the "big rebuild" was needed.

They started by renting their house back at home, but found it a bad experience and sold it. Their cruising "kitty" was around $150,000, which was put in diverse investments that generated around a 14 percent return in the late nineties (1997 ish-- sound familiar?). They were cruising mostly on the return and small work along the way. The had a separate retirement fund that had grown to around $250k in 1997, which was invested and would remain untouched until they were 65.

As I think about the differences between

1) Doing a sabbatical cruise or career break cruise.
2) Doing an open-ended cruise when in our 40s.
3) Doing an open-ended cruise in our 50s, and maybe not working again.
4) Doing a retirement cruise closer to age 60.

I think that Trefethen's model is a pretty good example of option 3. What's interesting, and thought-provoking, is that they started with pretty good financials (retirement fund, solid equity in house, 50k in savings), but the equation of selecting the boat really had to hit a low cost point ($25k) in order to protect the kitty so that it could generate returns. As he noted, the advice of boat brokers was that a $250k boat would be needed to safely cruise with children across oceans for a multi-year trip, and Trefethen noted that in that case they could have bought the boat and then had nothing left.

He notes that a lot a cruisers don't plan for final retirement well (those who start cruising in their 40s and 50s), and others mistakenly think that they'll sell their boat at the end of the cruising for a nice retirement nest egg. I'm not sure these claims are true, but I could see them happening.

Anyway, his arguments about living a minimalist life on land for several years before cruising, and buying a boat at the last possible minute, make sense in several ways. In today's economy, I don't think I could generate 14% in annual returns on a $150k kitty, which hints at the idea that it would have to be quite larger in order to finance most cruising expenses via returns on investment.

An interesting goal would be $500k in the final retirement fund, and $500k in the cruising kitty (before the boat is bought). Even with the $500k to start, it seems like selecting the boat would still be a tough issue, since it would be best to have around $400k returning around 7 percent a year to offset a majority of cruising expenses for a family of four.

Interesting issues-- ones that can make sabbatical cruising look better than before as well. Despite the criticisms, the book is worth reading for its ideas.

Jim H


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## FrankLanger

Jim, all very interesting, I agree. But if you do a search on this site, you will see that opinions vary alot regarding what's needed for a cruising budget--from minimalist at 10K per year to more than 5 times that, and it will vary with number of children as well.
Most people would have a hard time coming up with your suggested figures of 500K cruising kitty and another 500K retirement fund. Obviously the more the better, but one can end up saving forever and not getting off the dock.
The hard part is finding the right balance between having enough money to be reasonably secure and not postponing so long that health problems or other life events overtake the plans.
Frank.


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## PBzeer

This book was one that was part of my reading also over the past 3 years. I think what works best, with any book, or opinion, is to take what works best for your situation, and not try to do everything.Regards,


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## naysmitj

I would think that one of the toughest things to do would be to start cruising in your 50's and then have to go back to workafter a few years of the cruising life. 
We are thinking that we need to save enough to keep us cruising as long as we want to, then have a paid for retirement house in which to live in once we are unable to cruise any more. 
Probably 3 years off but we will not have $1M.
The health thing is to some extent an uncontrollable when we start aging though.


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## xort

Living on 7% return was mentioned. Great when you can get it but what do you do the year the market drops 10%?
Most financial planners will tell you to plan on only using 3 to 4% of your returns to live on. The rest of your returns of 6 or 7% go to offset inflation and market losses when they occur.
So if you have $100,000; you should only count on $3,000 to $4,000 per year if you want that money to keep up with inflation and market fluctutions.
So the $500,000 should only be counted on to generate $15,000 to $20,000 per year.

For someone over 50, health insurance alone could eat most of that!


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## Scott222

We cruised for 6yrs,1994-2000,on a very seawothy boat costing under $75,000. Taking early retirement at age 52 and having no medical issues we were very fortunate. House was paid off and leased out. We were fully invested with our retirement funds and of course the 90's were great for the stock market. We lived on less then $10000 per yr. so we saved alot of $$$$. No utility bills,no commuting costs,no vichicle expenses, no big shopping sprees at the mall. We loved it...one of our best life experiences..we miss the lifestyle...but we are back to a trailerable sailboat and enjoying life in the mnts. Good luck...Dave&Karen


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## Jim H

*Burn Rate Kitty*

Thanks for all the replies-- you all make good points.

David and Karen-- it's good to hear that your experience was so positive, and I'm impressed that your budget was so manageable.

Beth Leonard's article in this month's Cruising World is worth reading on these issues, but I am noting that she and others are revising the numbers upward for general cost-conscious cruising. Not many people post their actual monthly costs, but some note that the fees for entering countries, the cost of food and supplies, and most types of health insurance are going to be significant cost factors.

As for health insurance, there are several recent discussions about it at the SSCA board that are encouraging and offer good leads. Still, anyone enjoying themselves on $10k a year for two deserves praise and questions.

As for Trefethen, I think it's fair to critically assess a lot of his points. For example, few of us are going to be able to have a 1.5 million dollar kitty with even a five percent return to live on. As noted above, most investments are not risk free and fluctuate, and the fact that he talks about relying on a 14 percent annual return reveals both the uniqueness of his time (1997) and a lack of understanding of how things will fluctuate.

So, on paper it makes sense to live off the interest of your kitty, but in reality I doubt that it would work. If it did, we wouldn't need a retirement fund because our kitty would always be there. Instead, I believe most of us would have a "Burn Rate" kitty, in that I might accumulate $200k of disposable capital or funds that I would project to cruise for five years on. Even with no interest, that would work out to around $40k a year. If we can do it on $25k a year, then all the better, but with possible cost over runs (boat repairs, flights to see family, health insurance, etc.) will add up.

(Note: someone with different circumstances could take off with a $50k kitty or less, and have a great time for two or more years based on burn rate and additional income, so in no way is 200k or even 50k a minimum.)

How one manages to accumulates $200k of disposable capital in addition to a safe cruising boat is another issue. Trefethen argues that it best to save it up before you begin (2-5 years of minimalist lifestyle), even if that means selling the sailboat you own at the moment to save money. I do believe he has a point that buying your cruising boat too soon is an expensive proposition (boat loan, insurance, moorage, hours to clean and maintain, parts and supplies). He also notes the "trap" of becoming a liveaboard but not a cruiser.

So, at the moment I think it's fun to consider his minimalist approach. We've done it in the past (before our first home purchase), and I like the idea of actually selling everything down (including the house) before buying "the boat." A major benefit of this would be to be able to buy the boat with cash, and to buy the boat anywhere in the world we chose, since right after purchase we would move to it (and do several months of work before serious voyaging).

I also think he has a point about buying "the least expensive boat you need" and the "smallest boat you need." I actually like the thought of the boat as a disposable quantity-- only liability insurance, and only worth about 10% of our net worth. As long as it is safe, it doesn't have to be pretty, and boats in the price range that might fit are older Tartan 37s or Allied Princesses.

Anyway, lots of options, but I like to think them all through and try to avoid loans, cost overruns, and major depreciation hits if possible. The more I use and work on my current boat (1974), I also think my family could be happy in a solid older boat, even with the performance and space disadvantages.

Jim H


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## TSOJOURNER

*Quote from Sterling Hayden*

Everytime time I see the same old discussion about what it costs I refer to the potential voyager to the following:

Wanderer

A Quote From Sterling Hayden's Book, Wanderer

To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at sea... cruising it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about.

I've always wanted to sail to the south seas, but I can't afford it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of security. And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know it our lives are gone.

What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in the material sense, and we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade.

The years thunder by, The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb is sealed.

Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life?


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## Jim H

longwaterline said:


> A Quote From Sterling Hayden's Book, Wanderer
> 
> To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest.


Waterline, I have to smile when I read that quote from Hayden. First, I loved Hayden's book, especially it's honesty. However, if you're read the book, then you should realize that very few of us would ever dream of wanting to live his life. The quote above is about not needing vast sums of money or materials to be happy, but at the same time we should realize that Hayden earned and wasted more money (in 1940s dollars, no less) than any three of us will ever earn in our lifetimes.

His book is really a revealing of a long lifetime of insecurities about his personal abilities, relationships, money, sailing skills, booze, sex, parenthood, politics, and career. It's a beautiful and candid striptease of a man's life, and you have to admit his courage when he notes that even sailing to paradise with this two children (against the divorced wife's wishes) didn't calm his inner demons and doubts. They simply went with him.

So, I like the quote, but if you know that source then you understand it's just a riff. I'd like to pretend to have more control and confidence in life, although his book is a catalog of how we all can feel at times.

Jim H


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## TSOJOURNER

Hayden marches to the beat of a different drumer and I agree most of us could not or would not live that way.


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## Scott222

Hayden's quote mentioned above triggered some feelings we had after returning home after 6yrs of full time cruising. We were in shock returning to a culture of extreme materialism. Americans are into their "stuff". Buy, Buy, Buy. From cell phones to HDTV to SUV's etc. And it can be a trap as we have to maintain and support this lifestyle. It's hard to give up "stuff" for a cruising lifestyle where this "stuff" is not available. I am reminded of many places in Central Amer. where a night out is families walking to the town square and socializing with each other and perhaps listening to an impromtu musician playing an instrument and singing. Wow, this was something we really looked forward to when arriving at a new port. Anyway we are home now and I hope we have a better appreciation of what is really important. Take care...Dave&Karen


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## kwaltersmi

Those lofty bank account/retirement account figures are scary because I know it'll be a long time before I can put that much away. However, I still have a plan. I'm currently focused on paying off all my debts (including the house, eventually) and living on less than I make. I refuse to take out any new loans (auto, home, credit card, boat). I'm driving a paid for "beater" car. The goal is to make my income work as efficiently as possible. (Most of the preceding is part of Dave Ramsey's plan). 

I'm still at least 3 years away from casting off.


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## Jim H

*Early Departure, Anyone?*



kwaltersmi said:


> I'm still at least 3 years away from casting off.


Ugh, I know the feeling. It's too easy to think of scenarios that would "force" an early departure, even with low numbers in the kitty and for the boat. Who cares if the money runs out? I'm not certain if this saving and planning is making it easier to do career work, or harder...

I feel lucky that I have a basic and affordable 27 footer to enjoy in the meantime (and yes, I've pondered how far we could go in it).

Jim H


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## kwaltersmi

I'm between boats. I've contemplated purchasing a cheap 25' Coronado last summer just to keep me sailing, but I decided it was better for the budget if I just used the money to pay down debt. 

And yes, the saving/anticipating makes the current career harder at times!


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## ebs001

If one plans to live off the income from investments, keeping the principle intact one needs a large initial capital to get any kind of a decent income. 500K @ 7% yields $35,000 per annum. If however you set up an annuity using an infinite progression, this substantially increases your income because you are also using part of your principle. Theoretically if you lived an infinite number of years your principle would be zero. You can change the progession to what ever number of years you want. The shorter the annuity period the more you get per annum. Visit a financial advisor and he can set this up for you and it's free - well sort of, it won't cost you anything.


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## TSOJOURNER

I've seen this $ 30-35000 per annum as a goal to allow a cruising lifestyle often. Is this a conscensus of whats needed, or a goal in lieu of anything else?


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## Jim H

Waverider said:


> If you religously do this your nest egg will grow to approximately $5 million (returns of 8% and 2% inflation). These numbers assume you are both 25 and working until you are 60.


Waverider, thanks for the numbers. Five million sounds impressive.

When I've "run the numbers," I can also produce pretty big sums, but then they drop as other factors are put in. In the US, I've down-shifted my growth projections to 6-7 percent a year, and I normally add in a 3 to 3.5% inflation estimate. That means a million dollars in 2027 is quite a bit less in today's dollars once 20 years of inflation is figured in.

The other item that seems to throw things off is the cost of health care in the US increasing at well above the cost of inflation, meaning that the $1000 a month we pay now for family coverage (via our employer) may be quite a bit higher in the future, even with medicare coverage for retirement. (I wonder what will happen in other countries in regards to health care costs...)

Real estate has also been rising at higher than inflation, so it's hard to predict what a rental will be in the future... In fact, I wonder if more retirees in the future won't be spread around the globe.

All this aside, it's hard to imagine what will happen next. The US stock market might continue a decent climb, or it might not. A major international event could cause a set back for a lot of us. A new discovery (similar to personal computers) could mean a boon for all of us. Who knows.

Half of me thinks a slow and steady investment plan as you describe is the safe and best way to go, and the other half of me says to "go now, while you know the numbers and know your heath." It's a weird predicament, but fun and interesting.

Jim H


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## Jim H

Waverider said:


> Investing in the American market doesn't make much sense because as a nation you guys are bankrupt, there are better (safer) ways to make your money grow.


Good grief, that's a little harsh, isn't it?  There might be a few ties between our economies. 

Don't make Canada sound too good, or we'll all move up there. Then where would you be?

Fair winds!

Jim H


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## Jim H

Waverider said:


> We don't want that, but you have to check your guns at the border.


Luckily, I don't own any guns...

I think your summary is part right and part overstated. Wars don't last forever, thankfully, and before long we'll all need to deal with alternatives to the oil issue. Maybe there'll be a dark period, maybe there'll be innovations and new collaborations. My parents lived through the depression when they were young, and I know that a lot of us could handle serious challenges if we had to.

I also hope we meet on the water someday.

Jim H


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## TSOJOURNER

Waverider
I would like to take umbrage with some of your remarks unfortunately, yours is a common attitude of a lot of Canadians and especially those that I grew up with as a native of Halifax, and later the Okanogan valley in BC, my family has over 300 yrs in that country. The best thing that ever happened is that my father decided to move to California during the war and "Americanized" us all. Besides Halifax, as an adult I've worked in Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver and I've seen the same attitude amoung my compatriots as you apparently have.

The fact is without the US at your southern boarder, you probably would have disolved into separate provinces and then into chaos. I'm not sure Canada is even a country anymore anyway. The US provides all your defence, financial investment opportunity, produce and foodstuffs, The government is the greatest employer, 20% on the pogey, AND, explain Quebec???? Maybe you don't remember when the separationists were blowing up cafes and gathering places of the "english". And Rene Lesveque (sp) tried two times to separate do you remember the referendums? IMHO Canada has slipped into a socialist morass since the second world war when canada had some backbone.

I do agree and I don't like it that Iraq is costing the US a lot in lives and dollars, which could be best spent elsewhere, and, I don't like the US being the world's policeman. But If not us, who? Canadians? French? In my perfect world, the US would worry only about things within its boarders, and let the rest of the world go to hell if that's where they want to go. Korea and Iran with Nukes, hell, give some to Somalia, Niger, Botswana, So Korea, Thailand, and any other country that wants them. 

Sorry for venting, but your post rung my bell at the wrong time.


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## sturmkatze

*Thanks ianhlnd!* That was a pretty good reply. I don't hate Canadians (okay, maybe Qubec...), but I don't feel they're God's gift to the world either. Anyway, how did this become so political? I'd rather hear about cruising than how my country is the root of evyil int he Western Hemisphere.


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## catamount

Back to the question of financing your cruising....



Waverider said:


> I'm from Canada,.... If you have a average to good education, then your dual income jobs should net you at least $150,000 per year (as a couple).


OK, those must be Canadian dollars. True I've been out of the job market for a while, but it's hard for me to imagine a _typcial_ 25-year old, even with a good college education, making $75K per year -- I mean that's about what I'm making after 5+years of graduate school and 15 years experience as a professional! I must be in the wrong field....


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## camaraderie

Cat...Yah...that is pretty optimistic income...only 20% of US families earn more than 90K and top 5% is 166K so you have to be pretty elite to pull down $150K as a couple. Nevertheless... it is better to dream and plan and fall a bit short than to never plan at all and fail utterly as most do. When you have some bucks in the bank at least you have the option to modify your plan rather than be a paycheck slave till ya can't sail anymore!

Ian...great response! No one likes the situation we're in in IRAQ but I love how the rest of the world takes great pleasure in bashing us while we carry their water. Just look at Darfur to see how the rest of the world lives up to their responsibilities as human beings.


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## PBzeer

Back at the financial side of things, though this is only a two week sample, my living costs where $79.00 for thre nights at marinas, $45.00 for diesel, and $10.00 for supplies I replaced. This was with motoring everyday, all day, and staying at marinas for lack of an anchorage on the ditch.

I expect my marina and fuel costs to go down, and my supply costs to go up, once I get to Florida. Even so, they were still well within my planned budget of $500.00 a month. I did though, have extrodinary expenses of almost $900.00 of which $600.00 would have been unnecessary except for my overlooking I had not joined a tow service before leaving.

Just a small snapshot, but I believe it will pretty well hold when I'm out for longer periods of time.


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## Pamlicotraveler

Waverider said:


> If there's a place where a political discussion can take place let me know, and I educate you there in the evening or the weekend.


Waverider - When you offer to "educate" someone, it doesn't sound like you are entering the conversation with an open mind, but for what it's worth -From the Economist Magazine's "World in Figures" the US GDP per head is $37,240, and Canada 's is $27,290. The economic growth rate in the US exceeded Canada's last year (2005), 3.6% for the US and 2.9% for Canada.

Let's all go sailing!


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## TSOJOURNER

Now I know why Canadians are allways pissed off!!

Canada could have had American Technology, English Education, and French cuisine, but ended up with American Education, English cuisine and..... French Technology!!!!

No wonder.....


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## PBzeer

Perhaps this explains why so many Canadians go to the US when they really need a doctor? (Sorry, couldn't resist that one)

Thing is though, what does all this chest thumping have to do with the topic?


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## lhunt

so many of us dream but few actually have the spine to get off our buts a really do the cruisiing even if it is for a few months. most of us get stuck in the security of the job and home. sad but true. Dreamer


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## Jim H

lhunt said:


> so many of us dream but few actually have the spine to get off our buts a really do the cruisiing even if it is for a few months. most of us get stuck in the security of the job and home. sad but true. Dreamer


You're right.

I still like Don Casey's and Lew Hackler's argument: if you are serious about cruising, then go cruising, this weekend and every weekend you can, even if your boat is tiny and your lake or river is small. The overnighters may become weekends, which may become weeks or even months or years of cruising. Or not. Either way, waiting for "the day" doesn't make sense.

Every trip counts, no matter how small. The important part is that they happen.

Thanks for the post.

Jim H

p.s. I agree with John that the country comparison exchange should likely move to the Fight Club thread.


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## PBzeer

Jim H said:


> Every trip counts, no matter how small. The important part is that they happen.


Well said!


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## chris_gee

Never mind the my boat is bigger than yours stuff.

I think some of the figures cited are a bit questionable. There seems some doubt as to what current inflation really is let alone predicting what it will be, with money supply growing at 8-10% pa. 5 million in 40 years may well be the cost of the average home based on the last 40.

It seems to me (setting aside the young person in a small boat working here and there scenario) there are two main options.

The mid-life two years or so time-out, and the older say twilight time.

For the first essentially one needs the money to live on plus I would think buy and equip the boat. Say $140-200K. I think the boat should be paid for preferably or the payments plus insurance allowed for and added. I think this should be expendable money not your capital. 

At 60 or so you probably want the boat say 100k plus 150k minimum for say 5 years cruising including interest.

In both cases I would not advocate selling up everything to do it. Why? Because in retirement you probably need a pension plan, plus some cash to put jam on the bread, and a mortgage free home, which enables you to live on a pension.

Over 5 years or so to repurchase that home may well cost you 50% more, which is a sizeable chunk to pay off at that stage. Hence I think keeping some money in real estate is mandatory. The boat costs roughly 10% in annual costs, whereas property tends to produce some real return after inflation. Any money from the sale of the boat is offset by refitting costs, inflation etc. so I would largely discount it. 

On a practical level I gather that most people setting out on a long-term cruise don't last 6 months. I suggest that part of this may be that women prefer a secure home base, certainly to return to. While some will take some time-out, children, grandchildren or careers tend to become issues. Hence in this country it is not unusual for a man to spend many years building a boat only to find that if he wants to go sailing it is on his own, with his share of the matrimonial property the wife having acquired other interests. Hence dreams are okay but being conservative show me the money.

Sure there is a small proportion who earn high money - they would hardly need to read this. Most don't and may even be squeezed by labour outsourcing to lower cost countries. Thus for most it will be smaller and older boats and probably cutting down on the McMansions and other spending that many consider required, to be able to afford it.


I don't see too much point in getting to say 65 and then finding one has say a few years before the health becomes an issue. But aiming for say 60 might be more achievable and rewarding. Of course it depends how far one wants to go. A few months in the Bahamas or Mexico is one thing. For that matter weekends or weeks with the kids in a small boat are great, but that is not the issue here.

Retiring early seems better to me than snuffing it and leaving one's money to the adult kids, so they can enjoy a higher standard of life than their parents ever did. They might go for a cruise themselves or more likely pay off the mortgage and spend it. Fortunately mine would prefer I enjoyed it.


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## snider

*Who wants to wait till they're 60!*

I've been reading this thread and always enjoy hearing how others are clawing at the cruising lifestyle. One thing I keep coming across is people planning to go cruising at or near retirement, but WHO wants to wait that long (55 or older). I'm 26 years old and I want to go NOW. I'm afraid if I plan on going in retirement it'll never happen, family, health, life, will get in the way, and it'll be a dream that was always just that, a dream. Now I'm not saying 55 is old, but there is possibly a big difference between 55 and 65. I work in a hospital (nurse) and I see it all the time, young (50-69) people struck down with illness, and if they haven't done the things in life that they want to accomplish, well they may not get another chance. I first wanted to go cruising 5 years ago. So I figured on how to incorporated cruising into my life, first I needed a new career, one that was portable(work anywhere in the world), I could make my own hours and make at least what I was making at my then current job (pharmaceutical manufacturing), ~$49,000/year, you see I wasn't about to take a step down. Then I will just buy a boat to live/travel on, take 3 month assignments up and down the coast for 9 months a year then take three or more months a year to cruise. I'll still be saving for retirement, and when I get the boat paid for in a few years (since it'll be my only payment), maybe circumnavigate and work along the way. You see when I'm travelling I get a tax free housing allowance for the average rent in the area, I'll just take that and put straight to the boat, most travel companies pay between $1000-$2000 per month, depending on how expensive housing is. In St. Thomas it's about $4,000 a month. So not to get to long here, after five years, quitting a good job to work full time and go to school full time to start over, I'm almost there, buying a boat early next year and moving aboard. I found the perfect career that will allow me to cruise, and do it NOW, nursing, and it's great because I also get to really help people, and I enjoy that. Everyone has a different situation, but don't wait, my point is I lived in a land locked town five years ago, and in less than a year I'll be cruising. The older you are, the more assets you should have, so it should be a little easier for you to find a way to go, if even for just six months. You only get one chance at this game! Do it now while you can.
Brandon


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## Jim H

chris_gee said:


> A few months in the Bahamas or Mexico is one thing. For that matter weekends or weeks with the kids in a small boat are great, but that is not the issue here.


Now that I've had two glasses of wine, I think I can respond to your terrible ideas. 

Actually, your points and scenarios are well-described and supported. I might add that by age 60, the kids are most likely through college and on their own. This is good in the fiscal responsibility to kids issue, but not so good in the "want to cruise with the kids" desire.

The other possible problem is that even at age 60, there might be health insurance issues to cover the gap until Medicare. More than a few of us may have pre-existing conditions by age 60, and who knows what monthly costs might be. I've noticed that a lot of younger cruisers seem to have "special deals" set up (they worked for BluCross or something) that offers them special coverage benefits even if they retire early.

At the Seattle boat show last year, I listened to a seminar by a younger cruising couple. As they noted, they had a choice between cruising or having health insurance, and they opted to cruise without health insurance. Since then, I've found better resources for coverage options (compared to nil).

You described two scenarios well. I'd like to toss out one more. The seasonal/commuter cruiser.

Some of us have careers that could be shifted to 10 month positions, with full benefits during the two months off. If someone lived in the right area, this could result in two months of active coastal cruising in the summers, with or without kids, for as many years as desired. One's annual salary would take a hit, but the cruising would be coastal and shorter term so the boat costs would be less as well. Surprise expenses (engine failure!) could be gradually absorbed by the annual salary.

I've known teachers who've managed to pull this off by owning less expensive homes (1000 sq. feet) and less expensive boats. Sometimes they have to work on the boat for some of their two months, and other times they choose not to cruise so much in the summers. Others might sail down to Mexico, leave the boat, and then return the following year in a "commuting" scenario.

Some might not consider this "cruising," but it would lead to a lot of experience without losing one's career and associated benefits. It could also be done with kids. I've been considering it, since it might be possible to afford a "do it all" boat, which would be light and small enough for local day sailing (and beer can racing and short cruises) in the fall and spring, but strong and large enough for a coastal hop and 1-2 months of summer cruising as well. A local boat that comes to mind is a Pearson 10M.

Lots of options that are fun to consider.

Jim H


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## TSOJOURNER

*Going*

Actually, paying off your boat when your young is a good idea. Wish I had done that.

I am considering the cost of going. I am conservative but have a good job with a decent retirement. My investments are OK. Only payment I have is a house payment but I will probably sell the house and buy a much smaller place outright in a few years. I sold my last boat and will probably buy my blue water cruising boat this year even though I will only coastal cruise until I retire. I think a prudent person should spend a few years really getting to know his boat if he is going to trust his life and families life in it. I realize that others may not agree but as I said I am conservative. With one 3 year exception I have spent my whole life by the sea and working on it or diving under it and lets just say I have respect for her moods. The real issue for me is just letting go. It is probably one of the hardest decisions for all of us. All I can say is that I have met a number of long distance cruisers and they all say the same thing. Even if you have to go small just go. If you don't and you truly are a long distance sailor you will regret it. Certainly you have to make sure you do not become a burden on others but you can't get too hung up on numbers (and I am guilty of that also).

Considering cruisers, ethnocentric personalities are rare. 
Cherry picking stats with no context is garbage. Personally I hope I continue to never meet such people while traveling on the water. I am knew to this site and I really hope that Waverider's method of addressing an important choice all cruisers must make at some point is not the norm.


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## Jim H

Waverider said:


> Let's hope I don't meet a conservative dreamer on the waves either, that last thing I need to listen to is a head in the sand whiner when I'm having fun on our boat.


Wave, you have me laughing out loud. I take it that you don't work in public relations... 

First off, if you are so pleased with your country, finances and cruising plans, why are you even posting here? Are we heathens that need to be saved?

Secondly, the "attitude" you're showing is pretty extreme. I mean, on the docks, I think we'd quietly run away from you. 

So look, maybe you should give us a break here. Most of us know how to use the IGNORE LIST feature on this bulletin board. Basically, in the User Control Panel, we can add a user to our personal ignore lists, and then it's pretty much like they don't exist. You can then say anything you want, and it will be like a tree falling in a forest.

So turn it around-- we're not as terrible as your attitude suggests. 

Jim H


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## HerbDB

I'll never know because you just made the ignore list. 
What an A**.


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## TSOJOURNER

"I'm a Canadian, read hockey player, so I'm aggressive. I play tomorrow, and I'm going to find the first french guy on the ice and drop the gloves and beat the hell out of him. Hey, he's french, so he needs a beating and I like french fries, and hate freedom fries. Actually, poutine is better."

Canada now uses retired geriatric players?? Must be a sight!!

You must be one of those “aggressive” idiots that loves the bravery of being out of range. 

Come on down to St. Thomas, I’m waiting for you…. Will make you swallow that chilled wine and it won’t be thru the mouth…. Gozzard 37, huh???? Easy to spot!


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## TSOJOURNER

*Huh?*

I just dropped in on this thread...so is this the new "Fight club"??
What happened to the sense of community here?
(looking for "chill pills" so I can pass 'em out)


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## PBzeer

Sadly, it only takes one to spoil it for everyone.


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## morganmike

Source: http://www.boatus.com/jackhornor/sail/Gozzard36.htm

"... it's fair to say that if performance is your primary criteria in a sailboat you should not be looking at a boat like the Gozzard 36. However, if style, accommodations and quality construction rank high on your priority list, and you're prepared to pay for them, this could be the boat for you. "

Sounds like a Gozzard is all show and no go? I guess it's true then, pets resemble their owners.


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## morganmike

*Risk*

I read alright, mostly sailing magazines and submarine drawings these days though. I don't have much time for blowhards. All the Gozzards I've seen look pretty similar. You sound pretty familiar, too. But like I always say, what the heck do I know?

To get back on topic, (or maybe just to get on it, since I admit I haven't so far  ) the elephant in the room is risk tolerance. Some people have it, most don't. Most people cannot stand the concept of an insecure financial future. They would never consider going cruising without insurance for themselves or for their boat, and they certainly wouldn't do it without some kind of nest egg/pension fund/cottage on the bluff waiting for their comfortable retirement. They dream of cruising long distance and may even do as Jeff H suggested, short duration trips, hopping up and down the coast, maybe participate in a Newport-Bermuda every once in awhile or something similar, but they never manage to cut the ties to shore - there's always the kid's college to think about, or the needy mother-in-law, always something, just gotta make it to 30 years for a pension and retirement medical benefits ... if they just hold on for a couple more years, everything will be perfect. Next thing they know, they're in their 60's and ocean voyaging away from the luxuries to which they've become accustomed doesn't seem so enticing. The wife needs knee surgery, he's got a bad back, and the boats been on stands in their yard for two years.

I bought my boat from that guy.

I'm in my mid-thirties, married, one boy aged 8 1/2. I make pretty good money as a technical program manager, and my wife is a teacher. I'm coming up on ten years with my company, and the stock in my 401K has doubled a couple of times since I've been investing in it. The bank, my wife and I own a small house. My cash savings isn't worth mentioning at this point. If I leave my company now, I will give up most of my pension benefits and most of the investment growth in my 401K (since most of it comes from employer matching contributions.)

We're going cruising.

We've got a plan (now about 2/5 of the way through on a projected 5 year span) and we're working to it. The ten year milestone seems to be convenient for planning, as my student loans and all other consumer debt aside from my mortgage will be paid off by then. We own the boat, the tools and most of the necessary and sundry equipment already. We're getting the boat and ourselves ready and could go sooner if circumstances required (shipbuilding is a notoriously uncertain career, particularly in this era of constant downsizing.)

Will we have health insurance? Maybe not. Boat insurance? Probably not. A cruising kitty capable of providing 50K a year in income from investment return alone? No way. But we're young, skilled, intelligent, and willing to work. Like the young nurse who commented easrlier in the thread, we have portable skills. More importantly, we have confidence in our ability to make money, one way or another, along the way. We are risk tolerant, partly becasue we are young, but also inherently. With some work and effort, and a bit of luck, this will get us cruising before we're 40.

After all, what's the worst that can happen, that we've got to come back and get real jobs? (OK, not the worst, but disability, illness & injury can strike anyone, anywhere, anytime. Might as well get some cruising in before that happens.)


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## TSOJOURNER

"Reading isn't what you best is it?"

Apparently writing isn't your best either!!


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## HerbDB

MorganMike,

Sounds like you have a viable, realistic plan. I don't think I will dive in to the extent you are planning, but I retired last week. The boat is wet stored for the winter, in Annapolis. In the spring we will get her ready to cruise New England for the summer. We plan to spend next winter in the Abacos. No plans to take off forever, but we are looking forward to some extended cruising.

I will be watching this list for hints and tips as well as information on the areas we will visit.


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## PBzeer

Excellent points MorganMike. Too often, for one reason or another, someday never comes. I retired early, have already gone through most of the money I expected to last for 5 years, and don't have one regret about doing it. If I have to stop for awhile and work, so be it. I'm doing what I want to do, and on my terms. Don't think one can ask for more than that.


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## Jim H

morganmike said:


> After all, what's the worst that can happen, that we've got to come back and get real jobs? (OK, not the worst, but disability, illness & injury can strike anyone, anywhere, anytime. Might as well get some cruising in before that happens.)


Great post, Morganmike. We wish you the best with your plans. I think what you are planning is very doable.

If you look around the web, you find others with similar plans who are either just about to go, are cruising, or who are back from cruising. There's good stories and not-so-good stories. The one thing I'm learning from their tales is that expensive and complicated breakdowns sound more like the norm than the exception, even if the systems soaked up months or years of work and investment in advance. Until you've motored 1,000 miles, for example, it's hard to tell how your engine and drive train will hold up.

I still really like the Herb Payson books, starting with his first called _Blown Away_. He and his family started in what seems like a different era, the 1970s, but they had an excellent attitude. They sailed a wooden boat with a frustrating engine on a very low budget with kids for a lot of adventures. I really think a cruise with a brand new boat with perfect systems can fail if the attitude is wrong, and a cruise with less-than-perfect everything can succeed fantastically with the right attitude and previous experience. (Caveat: I think it's pretty rare for attitude to overcome inexperience with cruising or boat maintenance, but...).

On the "worst that can happen list," one of the most frightening for me is health insurance. If you sail with no health insurance, can that be unfair to one's extended family? Both my wife and I come from large families, and if we got into a serious/expensive health issue with no insurance then they would feel the need to contribute. Even if we successfully rejected the help, it would be a real strain on everyone. In reading the SSCA and other forums about cruising health care insurance, especially coverage for only extreme and expensive needs, I think it could be worth the cost to prevent the "worst case" from occurring.

Good luck, and have a great time both now and in the future. Right now, I'm going to try and rouse the family into a daysail with me, even though it's only 36 degrees outside at the moment...

Jim H


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## TSOJOURNER

Jim H said:


> Most of us know how to use the IGNORE LIST feature on this bulletin board. Basically, in the User Control Panel, we can add a user to our personal ignore lists, and then it's pretty much like they don't exist.


Phew! Thank you Jim. I was unaware of the ignore list until you pointed it out. He is now ignored, and I can get on with reading this thread without having to read the pitiful diatribes of this embarrassment to my country making a public a** of himself. I apologize for him; his simplistic attitude and twisted opinions are not shared.


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## PBzeer

No need to apologize dawndreamer, they are everywhere. One thing that has been going around in my head though is what you would be doing to need $50k a year to cruise. Shoot, with that much, I could put 35 a year into the boat! And that's more than I paid for it.

Point is, that seems like a lot of money to go cruising, unless you're just going somewhere to tie up in a marina and live a shore type life. Nothing wrong with that, but I found one of the nice things while I was out was not worrying about how much money I spent, because I wasn't anywhere to spend any. I looked forward to finding a nice anchorage in the evening, and even the one's I shared with others, were still peaceful and relaxing.

It seems to me, at this point, that the biggest strain on the kitty is the periodic costs, such as maintaince, insurance, etc. The day to day costs are minimal when not using marinas each night. Though, if you are outside US waters, there are often cruising fees in many places.

I've started looking at my kitty as a two part thing. One for periodic costs, and one for day to day. That way, once you've established a good reserve for those periodic costs, the amount needed to actually cruise is much smaller. And since you won't always use all the reserve usually, it becomes much easier to refill it. That way, rather than thinking I need X number of dollars of return on my investments, I can probably do alright with Y. Then if I get X, I'm money ahead.

As a disclaimer of sorts, I have to say I've never been one to have a bunch of money in the bank. And I have no one but myself to be concerned about. So there isn't as much "risk" involved for me, as there would be for a couple or a family. But I do think the basic principal would still apply.


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## snider

PBzeer said:


> Excellent points MorganMike. Too often, for one reason or another, someday never comes. I retired early, have already gone through most of the money I expected to last for 5 years, and don't have one regret about doing it. If I have to stop for awhile and work, so be it. I'm doing what I want to do, and on my terms. Don't think one can ask for more than that.


Well said PBeezer! Who cares if you have to work some in new places, whether a new state, or a new country, it's just another experience, just another adventure. I find it interesting to find and learn new skills outside of my career. Just recently had a job offer to help build 49 foot ocean cats for a small local builder that puts out about seven to eight boats a year. When I have the time I plan on going down there a few days a week and helping out. This job just fell into my lap, I saw a big cat 49ft with the mast stepped on a trailer at a small local boat ramp (is this real?)and just stopped to see the fireworks and ended up helping out some. I don't think it would be to hard to make the little money needed for cruising if you run out, and the country allows it, which is probably the hardest part. If you are retired, it would be great to have enough money to not have to worry about it though.

I like what I read earlier about the smallest, cheapest boat you can live on,and K.I.S.S. People were cruising long before all of these gadgets. The less you have the less time you spend working on complex systems and maintanence. I know it's extreme, but look at the Pardeys, without an engine, think of all the money and maint. they saved, and although I wouldn't go without an engine, you have to look at it as another adventure, not a disadvantage. Brandon


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## TSOJOURNER

PBzeer said:


> No need to apologize dawndreamer, they are everywhere. One thing that has been going around in my head though is what you would be doing to need $50k a year to cruise.


Thanks John. $50k a year certainly seems excessive to me. Our average monthly expenses during our six years of cruising the French canals were under $1800 Canadian, and that included moorage, insurance, maintenance, fuel, daily bottles of wine and wonderful fresh produce, as well as dining-out every few days.

With my new boat, as a term deposit earning 4%, my cruising kitty will give me CA$2,500 per month. This should be more than ample, particularly since the boat will be on warranty, and will require fewer repair dollars from my own wallet for the first two or three years. I anticipate that the kitty will grow. When my old age security and CPP pensions kick-in, they will add CA$1,600 per month to the pot and bring the annual income to nearly CA$50,000. The boat will be a bit older then, nearing the end of its warranty and will likely require a bigger repair/maintenance budget; however, I don't think that I will be able to use the entire income, and the kitty will continue to grow. This should give me a nice nest egg to come ashore with if/when I become tired/incapable of cruising.


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## camaraderie

As I read these threads with the theme "go now...go small...but go" I think about all the cruising couples we've come in contact with over the last few years and it seems to me that the vast majority of the boats that I will call "campers" have packed it in. Some because the money ran out, some because it wasn't fun anymore and some because one of the two said "enough". 
Living on a small boat at anchor for extended periods of time requires a LOT of adjustment and most couples are not up to it. It is tough enough on a larger boat. Interestingly, I see a lot of single guys on small boats that have been doing it for a while and seem happy enough.

OK...I'll get to my point. If you are considering living aboard and cruising, it is easy for the dream to obscure the reality. *I think you have to be very realistic about what level of comfort and inconvenience you can put up with for years on end. *If you are not honest about this with yourself, you will end up unhappy and with a short cruise. There is a huge difference for a couple living aobrd a 40+ foot boat with complete systems and going off on a 30 footer. It costs a lot more to buy AND live aboard the larger boat so that means delaying cruising or adjusting the duration planned if 40'+ is what will work for you. 
None of this is to say "don't go small"... just be sure you BOTH can handle it. I do subscribe to the theory of GO as soon as you are able to do it in the manner which will make you happy!


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## Cruisingdad

*waverider*

(I apologize in advance for the many misspellings & the multiple postings. I wanted to make sure that he got it, though...)

Waverider,

I am amazed. I am really amazed at some of the the things you have said. Why do you say things like that?

It is obvious to me that you have the maturity level of someone about 15 years old. I have not cruised as much as many people on this forum, but quite a bit. The one common theme we all have had is the ability to get together and have fun. We don't see nationalities or scream about George Bush, or whatever. I love my country. It does have problems, many of them. But let me tell you one thing about the typical AMerican you so quickly have addressed as worthless & uneducated, we care for people and we try to do the right thing. THe right thing does not always turn out correctly. The right thing is not always easy. But better to try and fail than never to try at all. Right now, as we speak, there are Americans losing their lives or being seriously wounded in a country that is not theirs, for a people that I am not sure even care about them (or each other). To even insinuate that they (troops) are over there doing mass murder is Bullshit (excuses my language). I do not doubt that there are a lot of special interst groups/people with hidden agendas - what war has not had them? But 99.99% of AMericans and I would wager 100% of the troops are over there because they believe in what they are doing to try and help others. They have integrity and care for human life. I support our soldiers other there 110% - regarless of GB or whether the war can ever be won. Any of you soldiers (whether British, Aussie, or any other nationality and especially AMERICAN) reading this, thank you for what you do. And understand one more thing: I did not say I want the war or George Bush.

I love Canadians, and Canada, and Cuba. I have met some awesome people in Jamaica, Brazil, and sooo many other countries... and never once have any of them even slightly shared the anamosity you have. You embarrass your self and you embarrass your country. America and Canada have been friends for a very long time.

The problem with the internet is that people will say things here that they would NEVER say in person. As for you, Waverider, let me just tell you that you will be the most lonely person in the most crowded anchorage. Read this very carefully, if you read nothing else: *Cruising is about understanding different people and differnet cultures and coming closer to nature and what life really is all about.* That is what I have tried to instill in my children, and still do. Too bad you did not learn that. Maybe there is still time... or it will be the quickest cruise you ever heard of. ANd if you hate my coutry and my people sooooo much, than don't use our technology, don't cross our borders, and stay out of our waters. Sound inconvenient? Too freaking bad. You can sail to Cuba by way of the North Pole for all I care. Tell Hugo Chavez hello on your way through.

I have spent wayyyyyy too much time on this forum when I could have been doing other things with my kids and wife or spending it just for myself. *I did it because I have tried to help people & because I care about other people and cruisers in general. * We share a common theme and the one thing I have always loved about sailors is thier lack of recognition of governments as what defines a country & its people. That concept, Waverider, is obviously beyond your comprehension too.

You have offended me and coutless others to be sure... and I bet they are not all American. Quite candidly, if you were one of my kids and I caught you writing some crap like you have in this and other threads, you would get a really good spanking and get grounded until you came to appreciate other people and other cultures. WHy you think it is funny to intentionally try and hurt people is beyond me. It is against anything I have ever seen in sailing or cruising.

That being said, enough time here. After re-reading through this and becoming increasingly frustrated that any of the information I have ever typed could help someone like you, l think I will start spending more time with my family and espcially my kids. Maybe I will let them re-read some of the things you have wrote so that they might learn how not to act... but then again, I think they have already learned most of that. I am done with Sailnet for a while, maybe longer.

Regards,

- CD

PS Waverider, if you are a minor, as I suspect, I do apologize about the small profanity... but that is it. Change your life and see if you can find a friend.


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## sailaway21

Hey Waverider. Take it over to the fight club on the General discussion board. As a matter of house-keeping it is rather uncivil to tie up a thread with unrelated issues. Canadian intelligence and other oxymorons are dealt with there daily. Hope to see you there.


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## Jim H

Cruisingdad said:


> I have spent wayyyyyy too much time on this forum when I could have been doing other things with my kids and wife or spending it just for myself.


There is definitely a "law of diminishing returns" with time spent on these forums, which seem "free." I was lucky to both sail today with the family and go to a party for sailors, where I learned about engines, Cheoy Lee 41s, racing, crewing for races, reaching poles and assorted other local and regional sailing tid bits. Lots of fun discussion in very little time.

The users on these forums like yourself really work hard to share information, but in the end we'd probably all benefit from doing more and reading/writing less (if possible). Relationship to thread: best prep for cruising is to sail and enjoy others who also like to sail.

Shot from today (39 degrees warm, 15 knots of wind):


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## morganmike

Camaraderie, you make an excellent point about the so-called "simple" cruising life. We're making some of those trade-off decisions right now. I could be happy without two of the more troublesome pieces of technology we like to bring onboard: refrigeration and an engine. As a mechanical engineer, it hurts me to say that, but as a sailor who's absorbed a lot of the Pardey ethic, it makes sense. 

BUT ... my wife likes cream in her coffee. 

My wife is the most important part of my cruise. She is my friend, companion, confidant, caretaker, and a whole lot of other schmoopie-type things that I won't bother to bore you with. Going cruising without her is not an option. But she is not a sailor. In fact, she's known around the house as "The Princess". She's a good sport, and has jumped onboard with my dream. She's willing to give up the world she knows for the one I want to show her. She's willing to scrimp & save, take classes, and generally modify her life to suit our plans. 

BUT ... she likes cream in her coffee. 

It's a literal truth, but it's also a metaphor. There are things she will not be comfortable without, and cream for her coffee is just one of them. If keeping my wife happy keeps her (and me) onboard, then I will do what it takes to keep her happy. And if that means I have to have a refrigerator and all of the technology that goes with it, so be it. The plan has to include enough realisticaly comfortable compromise to keep it viable, and the specifics of those compromises will be entirely dependent on the crew in question.


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## PBzeer

I'd have to say you definitely have your priorities in order! Kudo's to you for recognizing them.


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## sailingdog

morganmike-

It might be worth seeing if they make a UHT version of cream. UHT milk will last a long time without refrigeration.


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## HerbDB

Definitely better here without Wavejerk. Canadian cream probaby won't spoil.


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## lhunt

*Inferior???*



camaraderie said:


> Waverider...Just be sure you stay in Canadian waters as I know you wouldn't want to sail in inferior American ones.


I am not sure where the inferior comes from. your waters are much warmer especially this time of year.

I am on the verge of putting career on hold for part of the year and buying an O'Day 27 to cruise in part time. It is big enough and low enough price to use for the warm season in the spring YYYAAAHHHHH! ! ! ! ! !


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## camaraderie

Lhunt...I was making a joke with waverider who is now a disapppeared person so the post no longer makes sense. We both have lovely waters...yours are a bit harder than ours at this time of year! <grin> Have fun on the O'Day!


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## TSOJOURNER

"Canadian intelligence and other oxymorons..." Yeah we should take a page from US military intelligence, EH? Oops. Better shut up before you guys "find" WMD's hidden in our Canadian bacon and putine! 

lhunt - check out www.sailfar.net - It deals with small boat cruising and has some great information.

Cheers.


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## sailingdog

is it possible to limit posting a message with links to people who have a certain minimum number of posts???


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## camaraderie

Dawg...thanks for the alert. Admin Jeff will have to answer that question...all I can do is push the big red "EASY" buton he gave me!! <grin>


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## hellosailor

Jim-
"If you sail with no health insurance, can that be unfair to one's extended family?" Sailing isn't relevant to that question, is it? Whether you are afloat or on land, the inaffordability of health insurance poses the same questions. At sea you are less likely to be in a car crash, hit by a bus, mugged, or fall off a train platform. So, perhaps sailing is actually fairer to the family--they may be at less risk.


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## Jim H

hellosailor said:


> Jim-
> "If you sail with no health insurance, can that be unfair to one's extended family?" Sailing isn't relevant to that question, is it? Whether you are afloat or on land, the inaffordability of health insurance poses the same questions. At sea you are less likely to be in a car crash, hit by a bus, mugged, or fall off a train platform. So, perhaps sailing is actually fairer to the family--they may be at less risk.


Hello,

It's not that I think there's more or less risk at sea or on land. It's just that if you choose to stop working and give up your existing health insurance, then it's hard to say it was the same either way. I guess I'm thinking more about operations and procedures for ailments that will happen whether one is sailing or not...

Personally, I've found some very good posts on the SSCA board about catastrophic coverage that sounds affordable, even if it only applies outside of the US. My real point is that one shouldn't have to choose between health insurance or cruising (at least I hope not).

Jim H


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## hellosailor

Jim, if you're quitting a job that has health insurance, you probably can take a COBRA conversion for 18 months after you leave them. That often is 1/2 the price you would pay for the same coverage with taking the conversion plan, although the terms and options offered to you may differ. But it's worth asking about.

Of course, MOST private plans these days are with some form of HMO or regional insurer, and you may be surprised to find out that (even if you are employed) if you get sick out of town--you've got no coverage until you come home. Or, are placed in a hospital. So even the typical corporate coverage can be useless once you "leave port".

Probably cheaper to just hire an ex-soviet doctor as permanent crew. "Comrade, I give you $400 a month, fresh bread and butter, and warm place to sleep! All you do care for wife and I. Deal?" "DEAL!"

Soviet, Indian, Chinese...take your pick. And none of them will give you a hard time about "I'll need a preapproval form before..." <G>


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## sailorjim99

JUST WHEN I THOUGHT IT WAS SAFE TO COME OUT, THE spammers ARE BACK. 

ALL YOU GUYS AND GALS HAVE A MERRY CHRISTMAS.

JIM.


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## camaraderie

Got 'em Jim...Merry Christmas back at ya!


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## PBzeer

Wonder why they keep picking on this thread?


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## camaraderie

PB...I think they find a way in on one thread and then automate it taking over someone elses IP address to send every night at about 3AM.


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## canadianseamonkey

ianhlnd said:


> Waverider
> I would like to take umbrage with some of your remarks unfortunately, yours is a common attitude of a lot of Canadians and especially those that I grew up with as a native of Halifax, and later the Okanogan valley in BC, my family has over 300 yrs in that country. The best thing that ever happened is that my father decided to move to California during the war and "Americanized" us all. Besides Halifax, as an adult I've worked in Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver and I've seen the same attitude amoung my compatriots as you apparently have.
> 
> The fact is without the US at your southern boarder, you probably would have disolved into separate provinces and then into chaos. I'm not sure Canada is even a country anymore anyway. The US provides all your defence, financial investment opportunity, produce and foodstuffs, The government is the greatest employer, 20% on the pogey, AND, explain Quebec???? Maybe you don't remember when the separationists were blowing up cafes and gathering places of the "english". And Rene Lesveque (sp) tried two times to separate do you remember the referendums? IMHO Canada has slipped into a socialist morass since the second world war when canada had some backbone.
> 
> I do agree and I don't like it that Iraq is costing the US a lot in lives and dollars, which could be best spent elsewhere, and, I don't like the US being the world's policeman. But If not us, who? Canadians? French? In my perfect world, the US would worry only about things within its boarders, and let the rest of the world go to hell if that's where they want to go. Korea and Iran with Nukes, hell, give some to Somalia, Niger, Botswana, So Korea, Thailand, and any other country that wants them.
> 
> Sorry for venting, but your post rung my bell at the wrong time.


IANHLND,

Sorry about your feelings towards Canada and us Canadians. You seem a little bitter that your father Americanized your family and that you are missing out on free healthcare, low pollution, uncrowded land, great economy (no thanks to the US and it's militant border laws) and so much more. You may want to educate yourself on what the US actually provides Canada before posting your assumptions. You provide us defence???? from who and what exactly? Opportunity? again what? You need to do some research my friend. Your thoughts on Canada are washed up and it's people like you that make this world ugly.

I've travelled to many countries and Canadians are loved all around the world. Americans have a reputation of being rude and ignorant. When I say ignorant I mean it in terms of being uneducated about anything outside of their own country. I've met many great Americans and I don't stereotype, but many people do and your reputation is tarnished in most countries.

You seem to be racist in general with you last comments. You may want to keep those to yourself. Now go fight a war.


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## camaraderie

SeaMonkey... To be fair...I think you are taking IanHlds comments as stand-alone remarks. He was actually responding to a VERY inflammatory post from a (canadian) user who has since been banned from the site and whose posts have been deleted. Ian's remarks may be a bit over the top, but he was sorely provoked! 
That said... I've got lots of friends north of the border...(mostly met 'em south of the border as they tried to get out of the cold)...and we've had lots of political discussions. I think it is fair to say that as a stand-alone country without the US umbrella of protection over decades...life would be ery different in Canada. While I agree that no one seems to want to attack Canada at the moment...your natural resources and wealth would make an attractive target for an aggressor. Without the US I believe that defense budgets would necessarily be much larger in Canada leaving much less for social programs. On the other hand, while Canada has chosen to go its' own way on some issues (as is its' right!) it is hard to think of a better ally over the years. 
We don't seem to have Canadians trying to move en masse into the USA or vice versa so we each must be pretty satisfied with our respective homes. We each have our own difficult problems to resolve and those are a lot more important than any differences we have between us! 

In direct response to your comment that America's reputation is tarnished in many places...I would suggest that short term swings in world opinion are not the measure of a country. The folks in Eastern Europe have us to thank for their freedom and what country has ever been as generous in vicotory as we were with Japan and Germany. Yeah....we've made lots of really bad mistakes along the way...but as a country we have good intentions and generous hearts. I'd say ditto for Canada too.


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## Giulietta

Now I get it....

You guys are all going mad, because you are all suffering from "testiculus frozenus" disease, caused by cold weather and boat dry.

1st simptom is: Denial, and increased urge to attack Countries North and South of you.

On the other hand, "burnus testiculus" the simptoms are to attack "east and west". (more common here with Spain to the East).

Doctor G's recommendation:

OPTION 1:
Look at nice sailboat photos (here in sailnet), Drink some rum (at home or bar of choice), and be nice to each other (anywhere).

Will it cure "frozenus testiculus", NO.... but at least the time goes by nicer.

OPTION 2: Move to Portugal, No Countrys above and bellow!!! And all we have to defend ourselves is from "water hose happy" Frenchmen


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## camaraderie

Giu...if you don't stop talking about how nice Portugal is...we may have to invade!! I hear there are weapons of mass destuction there. <grin>


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## canadianseamonkey

Fair enough Camaraderie and I'm glad that you banned someone who has no intention talking about our passion. I still find it sad that somebody like Ian let himself get provoked by somebody on-line and had to use the same mentality to prove his point. It all seems very childish. There is no need for racism, attacks on countries or the language that someone speaks, especially on a sailing site.

I am french-canadian and proud of it. I'll keep using this site as a method of research and questions only from now on.


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## Giulietta

Canadianseamonkey,

now you blew it!!!!

"french-canadian", you say, hummm???

I was liking you, but since half of you is no good (the French part), I will have to scrap you of my list of people that will be moving here for free, with all expenses paid for 40 years, free docking and free boat maintenance.

One question please, sometimes, please think carefully, do you feel the urge to insert a hose inside other people's boats and open the tap??


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## sailaway21

Canadian sea monkey,
Threads get hijacked quite easily here and I'm probably doing it now(!), but, as you can see, one Frenchman's vandalism is another Portagee's terrorism! Giulietta is a good egg, though. The "crime" commited earlier could have been avoided by taking the conflict over to the "fight club" where rationality, relevance, decorum, and most other respected virtues of western culture have been stripped to the bone, leaving I don't what but it's out of here. That way, cruising and budgeting for same can remain sane, and one may step out for a primal scream to the club, and return here as if nothing happened. Welcome and Enjoy.


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## cdosch

............


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## TSOJOURNER

catamount said:


> Back to the question of financing your cruising....
> 
> OK, those must be Canadian dollars. True I've been out of the job market for a while, but it's hard for me to imagine a _typcial_ 25-year old, even with a good college education, making $75K per year -- I mean that's about what I'm making after 5+years of graduate school and 15 years experience as a professional! I must be in the wrong field....


FWIW Cat, here's a quick synopsis of what _my_ sub-contractors in residential construction average in a year-gross. Just for fun and games.

(And not a single college grad in the bunch, btw)

Laborer= 30K

Stucco guy= 78K

Drywall guy= 125K plus

Framer(s)= 120K plus

Electrician= 175K plus

Plumber=160K plus

Concrete guy= 140K

Finish Carpenter= 185K

And my contractor friend to the Starz? Over 3 million last year. And he didn't have to get dirty.

I only point this out because as many people I know have found out in the past dozen years or so, college degree holders have been almost become poverty level wage earners, unless one can hit the big time in High Finance and a few other professions like that. Kinda sad, but I saw this one coming a long time ago.

(Oh, and in all fairness these are So Cal dollars. Maybe a bit above average. Your balances may vary)..........

Rick


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## hellosailor

Rick, some of those (plumber and electrician) I recognize from comparative salary figures--and those SoCal numbers are way way above US national averages. Maybe for a union licensed master with ten years under their belts, but a high average for either would be more like $70-90,000US nationally. After experience and running their own established business--not as an apprentice, which is how they usually have to start.


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## TSOJOURNER

I agree, H/S, they do sound a bit high compared to the Nat'l average. Which I don't know all that much about, having never worked anywhere else but So Cal. But I do recall hearing from old friends and looking at their Want Ads from other cities and the wages were definitely lower (As were a lot of things---rent, homes, cars, the usual suspects). I guess it's all relative, but the funniest conversation I had this year was with a gal who just dropped 1.3 m on a fugly pos house a block from the beach in MDR. She just moved from Gnu Yawk and was a medical asst w/a degree and all that. She asked me if I had an inexpensive electrician she could use and out of the goodness of my heart I gave her the number of my guy. She then asks what he'll charge her and I said if you mention my name, he may go down to $85.00 an hour (which is my price). Her jaw dropped to the floor and she screams at me "I went to [email protected]&*#g college, have a degree in the Medical Profession and I only make $38.00 an hour! WTF is with this place?!"

So I asked her if she researched So Cal at all before moving here and buying a place, and she admitted that she did not do a lot of that. So I politely asked her if she'd like the number of my plumber. She asked why? 

And I said "Because he's hiring at the moment and starts everyone off at $28.00, but after a year or so she could probably hit the $45.00 mark". 

Ever actually hear pins drop before? Gawd, they're LOUD............


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## gypsywomen

We are in our mid 30's and have 3 kids. We are planning a cruise on 25k and are hoping to get 12-18 mo. from it. We are buying an old boat outright with the money from our house sale. Then a bit left over for refit and our cruising kitty. Yeah we will have nothing when we come back to the states after our cruise but a old boat and a lifetime of memories.


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## hellosailor

Gee, Rick, if I thought I could afford a spot in a trailer park out there maybe I'D ask you for the number of that plumber too.<G>

Maybe I should get a small go-fast dinghy and stock up on head repair kits, and offer "Marine plumbing with boat calls" ?


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## TSOJOURNER

hellosailor said:


> Maybe I should get a small go-fast dinghy and stock up on head repair kits, and offer "Marine plumbing with boat calls" ?


My friend who owns the boat that we just did the Baja Ha Ha on last month would have left you a blank check if you were in Bahia Santa Maria the day the head went south.

_Yucky-uck _squared.............


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## dave6330

Wow - did this ever get off track!!!!

My whole life has been about embarking on new tacks without a whole lot of preparation. I live pretty much by letting my heart guide me forward and hoping my head catches up eventually. I expect my "retirement cruise" to be pretty much the same. I suspect it's a little like having children...if you spend too much time counting the costs and trying to figure out if you can "afford" them, you'll never know the joy of being a dad. Same goes with marraige, I suppose. Anyway, when my time comes, I'll sail away with my Bride and we'll just take it from there...

My advise: don't spend too much time calculating your budget or you'll never get off the dock.

V/R

Dave


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## Livia

It was nice to see this post. I think we hear a lot of "go now, go with what you have" and I think that is because our natural inclination is to stay put. So we need some pushing to counter the inertia. But I've seen what it is like to be very old and very poor (in my extended family) and it can seriously suck. Wanting to avoid that is smart in my book.

And to add to the derailment, I'm an American overeducated liberal elite* and my husband is a hot French-Canadian military man and we get along just fine. So that ends the US vs. canada vs french canada vs military discussion right there 

*not really that easily boxed in but it makes the story better


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## TSOJOURNER

*I've been lucky*

After spending two years in the Middle East, I went and bought a 1968 Cal 36and sailed her from FL to Annapolis. She is a great boat and the survey came out as Excellent just below Superior. I dumped some electronics on board and she is getting a new engine while I do another year in the Middle East. When I return, it's off we go to do some voyaging down to the Crib and then hit the canal and due west. Spending a few years where you are paid ALOT of money and spending little makes it easier to save for that extended voyage. There are many jobs overseas that are a year contract and will enable you to save for a long voyage. I am single, but have a girlfriend who may or may not decide to voyage with me, but I know that what I have made and saved will enable me to go around the world and then some. Being 45, I want to do this before I am 50 and since life has a way of surprising us, I want to see it now then worry later about where life goes from 50 onwards. My friends and family say to keep working till 50 then take off, but I will do this now as I am single, no mortgage, no home (except the boat), no children, do debt. Who knows what will happen from now till 50. As for spending a lot on the trip, I don't think I will as I do not really like the culture of the yacht marina very much. Too much my boat is better than your types there. I do enjoy having a beer at the end of the day with other cruisers and swapping stories of how much battery juice is used by their boats. Swinging on the hook and fishing off the stern has a great appeal to me at this moment. Restocking the liquor cabinet and book swapping are also some of my favorite things. That in a nutshell is my plan and with some more luck, I am off this time next year. Be well and safe.


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## SailorGregS

We have looked at the cruising kitty scenario very closely to see if we can afford to quit our jobs and go. 

Our projections are based upon the movement of buying GICS, Bonds, and Dividend paying blue chip stocks. The dividend has to pay at least 4% for the tax benefit. The overall annual income will be based upon 6%, and inflation targeted at 2%. So, for every $100k we have put away we would receive $6,000 not adjusting for inflation. We have no debts, own our house, cars, and cottage. The only problem is purchasing the boat, owning it outright, and doing a retro fit. Budget for the boat is $125,000.

If we can receive investment income, payable monthly, I'm going to budget for $3,000 for our living expenses. 

The only problem we have is quitting our jobs. We are high wage earners and letting go of that income is the most difficult part.


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## hellosailor

Six percent--without real risk of loss? Greg, I'd love to know ow you can pull that off these days. Looking at bonds, I can find 7-9% but with real risk. In GO munis and fairly secure bonds, 5.5 federal tax free seems to be as good as it gets (and damn hard to find) these days. 

Dividends...nice, if the stock value doesn't go down another 50%. How do you find this stuff?


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## xort

2% inflation...that's sooo yesterday.

My biggest concern is that all the govt bailouts will cost and that cost will be reflected in inflation.

I remember the late 70's. You could get CD's taht paid 9% or more...because inflation was running 7& to 9%. So I would not count on 2% for the next 10 years.

Read up on the great depression and the hyper inflation that followed. It's what got Germany back into war. Many economies that went through bank troubles then went to hyperinflation.


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## Freesail99

> remember the late 70's. You could get CD's taht paid 9% or more...because inflation was running 7& to 9%. So I would not count on 2% for the next 10 years.


In the late 70's and even the early 80's you could buy CD's paying 20%. I had a lot of them.


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## xort

Freesail99 said:


> In the late 70's and even the early 80's you could buy CD's paying 20%. I had a lot of them.


Led Zeppelin?

Oh, PAYING, sorry, I thought I read PLAYING


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## quidam1947

This was a very interesting read. I noticed the original thread was started back in 2006. A lot has changed since then. I wonder what some of the people posting back then are doing today (in this economy)???


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## quidam1947

*Recall the original cruising scenarios presented by Jim H. in Post #1...*

Bruce and I were working towards a modified version of option 3) Doing an open-ended cruise in our 50s, and _working along the way._ 50 is just around the corner. We're building a boat we can be comfortable on and specifically one that I can handle. We always planned on going soon and going cheap. We determined the best time to go was after Bruce's youngest graduates H.S. and it'd be just the two of us (and our dogs). Our launch date is still scheduled for some time in 2010. His daughter graduates 2011.

I thought I had a nice little nest egg to fall back on but not anymore (lost in the stock market and can't make it back)  so now we are REALLY going cheap. Timing may slip ever so slightly for putting in all of the systems we want/need -- and/or our destinations may be fewer and further between changes in scenery once we get out there. We pay cash for everything going in. And Bruce can repair or make just about anything. I'm taking a basic electronics course and hope I maintain our electronics onboard.

Hopefully, the real estate market will come back up so we can sell and have that money for savings.

The world is a bit different today versus 2006. But the dream's the same!

I can't wait.

Michele


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## bluwateronly

*give me a break*

What the frak do you spend so much money on. Come on you need a million dollars to go cruising. This is the kind of stuff that ticks me off, big time. I guess you have to be rich to sail, you need a quarter million dollar boat, all the lasted and greatest and must spend a ton of money at every port, refit the entire boat every few years. Do you rich folks think the rest of us live like that, well, we don't. If you have a good boat, some sense and don't expect to live higher than you do on land you can do it on a whole lot less. I will be watching the same sunset as you and will sail my boat like a true captain and not let her get into trouble and I can fish and fix my own stuff not spend a ton of money on bs stuff just sail the boat like the old guys did. Sorry, you will never stop me and I won't be doing it unsafe or endanger your million dollard yauht and I bet the locals will hang with me and have a great time. Yes, I am pissed.


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## xort

blu

what, or who are you addressing?

What is your budget for your cruising lifestyle? $5000/year?


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## xort

Q

Pretty much the same exact story here. We were going this year and never coming back. Now, it will have to wait a year or two and be under much different conditions. At some point, we have to say the hell with it and go or the hell with it and sell the boat.


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## bluwateronly

xort, I just see this kind of talk by people who have alot of money and can't even fix a broken toliet. I am not mad that that's the way they live, we all don't live like that and I really don't think some of the fiqures that are thrown around are for us that have never had that kind of cash and prob never will. I work full time raised 4 kids that are all going to college bought my boat as a project and fix her up when I can spare the money. I will be cruising when the boat is ready. Yes, I have money in my retirement fund so if I need it, it's there, did not lose a dime in stocks don't own a house just my boat, which is my home by-the-way. Yes, I think you can do it on 5 grand a year and be happy. Yes, you must have enough to fix a major problem stashed some where that's safe. Yes, you need all the safety gear. The anger was directed towards the author of this ridulous book not any one here.


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## bluwateronly

I say the hell with it and go.


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## xort

OK, you didn't direct it to anybody here..it sounded like that.

But $5,000 / year?

We think we need about $35,000 to cruise comfortably including food, insurance, some dockage, fuel, and repairs/maintenance. I hope I'm over on the numbers, maybe we only need $25,000. But I seriously doubt we can do it for less than that.

One also has to plan on inflation. It will hit us probably pretty hard after all this stuff is over. That's the only way the govt can afford all this. But that's for a different thread.


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## quidam1947

Bruce and I are going for $18,000/year ($1500/mo.) or half that, if we can. We're very frugal and have successfully cruised for less on our old boat, Amphora. We prefer remote locales and anchoring out. I'd rather curl-up with a good book than hit the night-life and I can't stand shopping or crowds. Bruce is a gourmet cook and can make anything taste amazing, so what more do we need?

We're friendly and fun and when we pull in and anchor in our vintage boat, good people with food, wine, and conversation to share. That's the best part of cruising - the people you meet along the way. 

Again, I can't wait. Seems we're all a little Land-Crabby these days due to the stresses in the world we all share.


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## bluwateronly

Sorry, if it sounded like that I was directing this towards you all. Just people read what others think and don't think on there own. So, they go Wow I can't afford this. I am in a different boat than most, I am single have always lived on a budget and know there are ways to do what you want if you want it bad enough on alot less money and I mean alot less. I search craigslist and ebay for parts fix my own boat and if I come along problems I can't solve I search out help, like here. I live on less than some some spend at starbucks in a year and I am very happy. When I got my first big boat it was in LA and I live in SF. Everybody told me I would die trying to get a 26 boat up the coast. Well, I did it. If I would have listened to THEM I would not have done it. I fixed that boat up and sold it and found a great deal on my 31 footer. Everybody and I mean everybody said can't be done. When I said why not, they said "you need this and this and this". I have sailed all my life on low budget boats and would rather die than stop sailing. I sail the SF bay and drop my hook next to the really nice boats and drink a beer and enjoy just as much if not more as them. I just get pissed when people tell me I need this or that. My boat is shipshape and safe may have faded gelcoat and older sails but, I can still kick ass on much bigger and better boats and don't call vessel assist when my filter clogs. I have always made it back to my slip on my own. I only have liability insurance and don't plan on more because if my boat is in trouble I will get her out of it or we both go down. Yes, I am nuts so take this with that in mind because I am not putting any one but me in danger. I would not consider this kind of thinking if I had a wife or kids with me. I am going to hit the rum now to cool off.


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## xort

yer not nuts; maybe a bit different, but different is good. Especially in the way you pose it.

But everybody has their skills and comfort level. They have to deal with it.

I love the question 'won't you get bored?' coming from somebody working 40 hours a week in a cube farm!

Hey, if they all were capable of cruising, the harbors would be bumper to bumper fiberglass


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## bluwateronly

Thanks Xort, and yes it cracks me up with that question. Have they not watched a sunset on the water. I can spend hours just watching and enjoying life out there. I have never been bored when sailing there is always something to do. Take care and may the winds be kind. Some people just don't get where I am coming from and vise a versa. I guess I better slow down on the drink I have to catch the tide at 7am it's going to be a great day tomorrow on the bay


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## xort

bluwateronly said:


> it's going to be a great day tomorrow on the bay


:worthless:


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## bluwateronly

You got it. I will charge the camera and take some pics tomorrow.


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## ADMTROX

xort said:


> yer not nuts; maybe a bit different, but different is good. Especially in the way you pose it.
> 
> But everybody has their skills and comfort level. They have to deal with it.
> 
> I love the question 'won't you get bored?' coming from somebody working *40 hours a week in a cube farm*!
> 
> Hey, if they all were capable of cruising, the harbors would be bumper to bumper fiberglass


Hey!!!!! Some really good people work in cube farms.

How would you know about getting bored working in a cube farm anyway?

If you ask me the definition of boring is the long slog on the freeway to the cube farm job!


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## quidam1947

Hey Bluwaterdragon, You're in good company.

I don't have our pics uploaded yet but I can relate to your cruising life style. 

Before Bruce and I met, he partially restored an old 1933 trawler in RI. Barely got it floating and headed down the east coast and up the Hudson into the Erie canal to bring the boat to Ohio. Didn't even have the running lights wired when he left the dock (but finished doing so by sundown).

We restored another old boat, 1922 motorsailor that Bruce also found in RI. Launched without any rigging/no power/no accommodations (towed to pilings we rented for the season). The following year we installed an engine, put new sticks up and Bruce slapped together temporary plywood bunks, sleeping bags, a couple of folding bikes, his power tools, a gasoline generator, and then tossed in his kids and a camp stove so we could eat. We made the same trek as before but crossed Lake Ontario into Canada to do the Trent Severne waterway. Bruce worked on building permanet accommodations as we cruised. 

These were great days!


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## chall03

Sounds like you have good plan Quidam, talking about good anchorages, pleasant cruising company and nice food with a couple of drinks is making me very envious  so what exactly are your cruising plans ??

Blu/Xort do you guys actually watch the sunset?? 
We prefer sitting in the airconditioned saloon with the genset going, with chef mixing Mojitos as we all watch a DVD of great sunsets on the flatscreen    Isn't that what cruising is about??


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## xort

chall

you forgot to mention the stereo blasting away at full volume. We mounted 4 BIG speakers on the fordeck and aft rails to provide sound for all the neighbors while we are below in the cabin watching our 60" plasma. We turn it down by midnight


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## chall03

The reason why I jest is that we were out on our boat last night, we pulled into a beautiful little spot called Refuge Bay, picked up a courtesy mooring sat back and watched the sunset...










To our right was a Motor boat, through the back window we could clearly see National Treasure 2 playing to the kids on the flatscreen......It was a perfect summer evening in Sydney, warm, clear and still. We didn't see those guys out on deck from 4pm until we went to bed at 9pm...


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## quidam1947

Hi Chall03,

Yep. After launching next year, we'll head south (Keys, most likely) and do a shake down cruise and spend a little time doing the usual places like the Bahamas, Caribiean, Cuba, etc.

Quidam is also being built for crossing the Atlantic to Europe. Winter in Greece one year, Turkey the next, and so on. Bruce built a garage of sorts behind the bench seat on the forward deck so we can carry folding bikes and a small motorcycle for deeper into the countryside backpacking (cheap).

We even got a plan for noisy neighbors... We're gonna carry Bani chickens and a rooster that crows at the crack of dawn. 

So you like Mojito's. I posted this on another thread but here's our recipe...



> *The Ultimate Mojito *
> 
> 2 oz. Ron Matusalem Gran Reserve Rum
> Fresh-squeezed juice of ½ lime, muddled with 3 Fresh mint sprigs
> 1 ¼ oz. * Cuban-style simple syrup
> 2 oz. Club Soda
> 
> Muddle (crush) lime & mint leaves in the bottom of a
> shaker, add remaining ingredients, shake & pour into
> an ice-filled highball glass.
> 
> *Cuban-style simple syrup - 1 part Raw _Turbinado _Sugar to 1 part water dissolved over heat. It's the KEY to making the best tasting drinks.
> (we own a beverage catering business barsonwheels.com)


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## chall03

Ok now that is definitely getting printed and going into our boat recipe book!

Your cruising plans sound just fantastic. A rooster is a great idea for dealing with the neighbours, I love it!


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## chall03

Our story??

To pick an option from Jim's original post, we are no 1). Possibly followed by 2 and then 3 

We are still fairly young and I have wanted to go cruising for about 6 years. I figure there is a good chance it is not a phase im about to grow out of anytime soon. My wife needs no convincing, she is as good a sailor as I, around the cans probably better.

We can't wait for retirement, so the plan is a 1-2 year 'sabbatical' in about 1-2 years time. For this to work it means that we will have to do it Pardey style. 'Go small, go now'. We will however most probably have refrigeration and a diesel 

After that who knows?? Probably a retirement cruise would follow later on, it seems like a long way off for us at the moment, but we can't think of anything else we would want to spend our retirement doing....

What are we doing at the moment?? Working like crazy to build the kitty, sailing on weekends and longer when we can on our current boat. We are also researching and looking for the boat to take us on our first 'serious' cruising adventure. That is where the economics are messing us around.....trying to figure out how much to spend at this stage of our lives, in 'the global economic downturn' is hard.


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## Valiente

xort said:


> OK, you didn't direct it to anybody here..it sounded like that.
> 
> But $5,000 / year?
> 
> We think we need about $35,000 to cruise comfortably including food, insurance, some dockage, fuel, and repairs/maintenance. I hope I'm over on the numbers, maybe we only need $25,000. But I seriously doubt we can do it for less than that.
> 
> One also has to plan on inflation. It will hit us probably pretty hard after all this stuff is over. That's the only way the govt can afford all this. But that's for a different thread.


I'm Canadian and seriously expect our dollar to leap about 40 cents U.S. in value when the world realizes the U.S. is printing its way to "recovery", which I interpret as "10 years of stagflation until all the crap debts are dealt with".

Having said that, we have two adults and one child proposing a five-year circ on a paid-for boat with about $20,000 in further services I can't do, or can't do well enough for the open ocean (like welding) and in gear (like RADAR, solar panels and batteries) to install or to retrofit before we go in 2011.

I expect that we will spend approximately $25K (assume Canadian/American money at par here) per year, of which $6,000-$8,000 will be fuel and maintenance. This may seem low, but the rather simple expedient of anchoring out consistently, the fact that a great deal of the boat's systems will be new (sea-tested, for we plan a trial trip to the Maritimes) or personally refurbished and simplified, plus the willingness to use the sails as much as possible (and carrying the means to repair and extend them) can save a great deal of money.

We may return only once in five years back to Canada. Not flying back and not having the cost of decommissioning and storing the boat on land is a great saving. We do anticipate one "prime and paint" haulout, likely in New Zealand, that might take a season in a yard.

We will be renting out the house (2 apartments, maybe $2,500 in and $500-$650 out in insurance, utilities, land taxes and "other" monthly) and we will be paying either my sister or one of my wife's brothers (he's a superintendent) to be "the face in the place" in order to collect rent, do light maintenance and to handle the bills.

We aren't relying on tenants for the cruising kitty. We _are _wanting them to cover the mortgage ($1,200/month). I will likely work while we are gone (I'm a writer and graphic designer) and expect to make maybe 18 months of the 5 x $25K worth of expediture while in transit. I'm setting that aspect of things up now.

I also expect to lower costs by doing some fabrication and fixing for other cruisers, as I will have a small workshop aboard that will carry the sort of tools I need for a steel boat (plus the means to power them), but aren't always practical to carry on a Beneteau, for instance. I suspect many of these sort of transactions will be "in kind", but that's fine: If I'm handed a case of 24 cans of top-end stew and a bottle of rum for two hours of putting in custom-cut backing plates or for beefing up an anchor roller or stitching together a mainsail split, that's a good cruising day for me and for my crew.

I look long and hard at various cruising narratives and blog, and even if I assume 25% of the stories told are either lies or prettied up beyond recognition, I don't think my numbers nor my game plan is particularly unrealistic. The fact is that a lot of people go cruising who are perhaps too old for it, too unskilled for it, too reliant on technological aspects of it, and who have a great fondness for "amenities".

Us, not so much. With me at 50, with a 37 year old wife and a 10 year old kid, we'll be relatively youthful in the cruising community, yet not suspiciously so! I expect opportunities to cut costs via small jobs will be available, and as I come from a marketing background, I know how to ask.

At base, however, the key to cruising economically is to extract oneself from the money economy in the first place. This can mean getting creative with stores, buying supplies when and where you find them cheaply, and getting used to trading with the locals.

It also helps to like fish. A lot. I do.


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## danielgoldberg

bluwateronly said:


> What the frak do you spend so much money on. Come on you need a million dollars to go cruising. This is the kind of stuff that ticks me off, big time. I guess you have to be rich to sail, you need a quarter million dollar boat, all the lasted and greatest and must spend a ton of money at every port, refit the entire boat every few years. Do you rich folks think the rest of us live like that, well, we don't. If you have a good boat, some sense and don't expect to live higher than you do on land you can do it on a whole lot less. I will be watching the same sunset as you and will sail my boat like a true captain and not let her get into trouble and I can fish and fix my own stuff not spend a ton of money on bs stuff just sail the boat like the old guys did. Sorry, you will never stop me and I won't be doing it unsafe or endanger your million dollard yauht and I bet the locals will hang with me and have a great time. Yes, I am pissed.


Easy there Blu, don't judge others based on how they sail, cruise or live. The way you do it is great for you I'm sure, and more power to you. That said, you would be mighty offended if someone posted something along the lines that (i) older boats with faded gelcoat are eyesores and detract from otherwise beautiful anchorages; (ii) it's uncivilized to cruise on an old cheap boat with minimal electronics and no amenities, (iii) "camping out" is for people unwilling to work hard and just to cop out of responsible work, (iv) it's unfair to kids to deprive them of the benefits modern society, or (v) it's unsafe to eschew modern electronics and safety gear, and thus cost the rest of us money when the coasties need to save you because you were too cheap to buy a GPS.

You probably didn't see it that way, but your post was very similar to teh above, just the flip side of the same coin -- telling others how they should sail and being very critical if they don't do it your way.

Not at all trying to pick a fight with you, just pointing out there is a reason they make vanilla AND chocolate ice cream.


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## xort

Val

Sounds about right to me. I think the $25,000 is doable, except for the big question looming about inflation. I hope your calcs work for you.


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## xort

So dan, how many millions do you have?


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## danielgoldberg

xort said:


> So dan, how many millions do you have?


Millions of what???


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## quidam1947

*See. I knew this was an interesting thread.*



Valiente said:


> I'm Canadian and seriously expect our dollar to leap about 40 cents U.S. in value when the world realizes the U.S. is printing its way to "recovery", which I interpret as "10 years of stagflation until all the crap debts are dealt with".


I agree. I don't much care for the path that got us here, nor the path being cut to get us out. It will be all too painful for a lot of people.



> Having said that, we have two adults and one child proposing a five-year circ on a paid-for boat with about $20,000 in further services I can't do, or can't do well enough for the open ocean (like welding) and in gear (like RADAR, solar panels and batteries) to install or to retrofit before we go in 2011.


Sounds like a most excellent plan and your child will benefit greatly -- what a perfect age to start out on this adventure.



> I expect that we will spend approximately $25K (assume Canadian/American money at par here) per year, of which $6,000-$8,000 will be fuel and maintenance. This may seem low, but the rather simple expedient of anchoring out consistently, the fact that a great deal of the boat's systems will be new (sea-tested, for we plan a trial trip to the Maritimes) or personally refurbished and simplified, plus the willingness to use the sails as much as possible (and carrying the means to repair and extend them) can save a great deal of money...
> AND... (redacting a few paragraphs here if you don't mind)​I also expect to lower costs by doing some fabrication and fixing for other cruisers, as I will have a small workshop aboard that will carry the sort of tools I need for a steel boat (plus the means to power them), but aren't always practical to carry on a Beneteau, for instance. I suspect many of these sort of transactions will be "in kind", but that's fine: If I'm handed a case of 24 cans of top-end stew and a bottle of rum for two hours of putting in custom-cut backing plates or for beefing up an anchor roller or stitching together a mainsail split, that's a good cruising day for me and for my crew..


Actually, this sounds very doable. Bruce will have workshop capabilities onboard and can even do a bit of welding & fabrication work. And, I'm taking currently taking a basic electronics in the hopes that I'll be able to facilitate our own electronics repairs, (maybe learn how to do a little canvas work too) and thus have the option of_ bartering _with other cruisers for our skills, if opportunity should arise.



> At base, however, the key to cruising economically is to extract oneself from the money economy in the first place. This can mean getting creative with stores, buying supplies when and where you find them cheaply, and getting used to trading with the locals.
> 
> It also helps to like fish. A lot. I do.


DITTO all this for us, too.

I look forward to more cruising dialog with you here on SN.


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## Valiente

Well! Looks like we're in good company, except I don't want any more of it because I'm counting on my customer base having more money than sense and skills!

The bartering with other cruisers is one thing, but I expect to be bartering with the "natives" as we plan to go a little off the beaten track in the Pacific and Indian Oceans. One of the reasons to carry a Honda genset is that I can drill holes all day in concrete or wood with my 1/2" chuck Makita because I've brought my own power....power being the missing or highly restricted element in some distant anchorages. I figure that's good for a couple of pig roasts and a guided tour to the weird limestone caves if I throw in a box of pencils and a few novelty T-shirts.

I think the money economy of the West is largely a mistake in places where people basically work at subsistence levels of growing crops in plots and fishing the sea....and where there are few shops and maybe a ship once every three months. So I would much prefer to barter service for local goods, or for local service. This way, I avoid the money element as much as possible, and yet arguably do something of value that is valuable immediately and in context. If I have the only circular saw or bending jig or spare tarp grommets within 100 NM, I can do more good than slipping the village headman an American 20 dollar bill so I can drink kava with the boys.

My wife's a biologist with some medical training. That should translate well, too.


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## bluwateronly

Wow, I need to express my thought better some times. I was only upset that the book was saying you need so much money to cruise. I don't tell others what to do only try to give advise if asked. By-the-way my gelcoat may be faded but it is always waxed and looks pretty good. I love all sailboats and man are some of yours nice. Live and let live. No hard feelings to all you rich guys


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## bluwateronly

Just to add, you may not even know how it feels to be looked down on because my boat cost less than yours type attidude. I feel it all the time and it's real. It is human nature and some have never felt it because they are on the "other side of the coin" I was to nice on the last post because I don't want a fight either. However, I can handle one if you want. There are many here that don't have that attidude and some that do. And did you not read all my posts, saving me because I don't have a gps. I said I have all saftey equipment on board thats not what I was saying and yes I have a gps infact 3. Just keep your damm genny running and turn up your stereo and don't forget your captains hat and white pants okay because you know you are better at sailing than the guy next to you trying to ejoy the sunset. Oh well,uke I am out of here and enjoy your shinny boat.


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## hellosailor

"a box of pencils"
If THOSE have barter value, how about the disposable/refillable mechanical pencils, often on sale before school season 6/$1 or so.
Or do you plan to give away sharpeners and then sell pencils?(G)


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## Jim H

*Cruising Lifestyle, without cruising...*

Geez, I had forgotten about starting this thread.

First off, I'm thankful to Jim Trefethen for his book, because it did cast long-range financial issues is a harsher light than most cruising books. The recent financial changes definitely draw into question his ideas about "cruising on the returns" of investments, but those were ideas of his time, when 14% returns were happening in some cases.

We shouldn't also forget that his actual cruising was entirely different-- $25k wooden boat, several enjoyable years with his wife and two school-aged children in the early 1990s. He didn't wait to have a million dollars-- he went. If anything, the book was about wanting to go again, but having the bucks to make it last some how.

Since I started the thread in 2006, we've done a lot. For awhile, it seemed like "go now" or "go later" was the big question, but then we started to think about basic principles, as Tom Cunliffe likes to say over here. We wanted to sail, we wanted our kids to have global experiences, we wanted to live a simpler life with less stuff, and we wanted to see much more of the world.

Anyway, in some ways we're living the cruising lifestyle even though we're not cruising yet (as Trefethen recommended). We sold the big house, the two cars and nearly all the toys. We moved to Europe, have great jobs, the kids love their school, and we own and sail a tough 34 foot boat that's 90 minutes away by train. We don't own a car, and we don't have a yard, and you can forget about shopping at Costco, but we don't miss those things at all. On vacations we sail the English Channel, visit cities in Europe, or spend time with our family in the Pacific Northwest.

Our current boat is paid off, and if something really went awry we could cruise for 2-4 years on savings (with some real concessions to lack of space). At the moment, though, life is good, and we're achieving the basic principles, have health care, have retirement savings, and all that good stuff.

If we can travel and sail enough in our current lifestyle, maybe in the end we will go for Option 3 (as defined in the first post of this thread), even if the means the kids choose between cruising with us or not when they are done with high school.

So, the worst case scenario for me was to live a sort of Walter Mitty life, "saving for the day" that doesn't actually come in the end (which parts of Trefethen's advice sounded like). We aren't doing that, and in my work here in London, it's amazing how many Americans I meet whose entire careers have been around the globe, working for corporations or in schools, and overall they amazing, intelligent and flexible people. (Basically, the qualities maybe most of us hope cruising will lead to.)

That's the update-- it was fun to see this thread come up again.

Jim H


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## danielgoldberg

You did not read my post carefully, or my meaning did not come through, and I'm more than willing to concede that I didn't get my point across due to my lack of skill with the written word.

I have absolutely no problem with the way you sail. I do not judge you one little bit, not even for a moment. My comment about GPS was meant to be illustrative only, and I was not suggesting that you don't have a GPS or that the Coast Guard has come to save you. And I am not the "rich" guy with white pants or a captain's hat that you seem to think I am (my joking with Xort notwithstanding). I have sailed a Rhodes 22 and a Hunter 34, and though I've sailed some higher end boats along the way, at present I sail a Beneteau, so believe me, I am not of the ilk that believes you need a $1 million boat to go cruising. If you've read my posts over time, I'm confident that sentiment would come through quite clearly.

My only point was that your posts appeared to be quite critical of people who do have money and choose to sail a different way than you do. I tried to make the point by giving examples of things that others might say about your method that you would find offensive (and I seem to have hit the mark). That is, I was trying to explain, by using examples, that you should be careful about criticizing how others choose to sail/cruise, as that same method of attack can be turned on you.

Truly, no offense intended, I hope you don't follow through on your threat of leaving, and you should stick around. The overwhelming majority of people here are very nice (except for CruisingDad, JRP, the Wombat, SailingDog, Xort, Giu, and all the other 1,000+ posters; stay away from all of them).

Fair winds, and peace to you brother!



bluwateronly said:


> Just to add, you may not even know how it feels to be looked down on because my boat cost less than yours type attidude. I feel it all the time and it's real. It is human nature and some have never felt it because they are on the "other side of the coin" I was to nice on the last post because I don't want a fight either. However, I can handle one if you want. There are many here that don't have that attidude and some that do. And did you not read all my posts, saving me because I don't have a gps. I said I have all saftey equipment on board thats not what I was saying and yes I have a gps infact 3. Just keep your damm genny running and turn up your stereo and don't forget your captains hat and white pants okay because you know you are better at sailing than the guy next to you trying to ejoy the sunset. Oh well,uke I am out of here and enjoy your shinny boat.


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## Omatako

hellosailor said:


> "a box of pencils"
> If THOSE have barter value, how about the disposable/refillable mechanical pencils, often on sale before school season 6/$1 or so.
> Or do you plan to give away sharpeners and then sell pencils?(G)


I guess I'm giving away my age when I say that I can recall being able to sharpen wooden pencils without a pencil sharpener. Maybe as gift the clutch pencil is good but for on my boat, only wooden pencils. If I have to, I can sharpen them with my teeth!!

Anyway, the reason for my post is just to share some experiences that I have had. Firstly, if you are planning on selling your skills to less skilled sailors, you need to be careful about making friends. I have had several occasions in anchorages where I have invited poeple to our boat, put up a decent (but inexpensive) meal, opened a bottle of wine and in discussion spoke of a problem I was experiencing (as we all do). I would get advice and assistance from the guest, freely offered, only to discover the next day that he charged another boat for the same advice because they just up and asked him. By being freindly, I got the service for free. This will happen to you too except you'll be giving. It's hard to charge your new buddy!

An example: A guy's wife wanted desperately to call home. The local phones were rubbish. We had an Iridium phone on board. After a liesurely dinner, she made a $10 call to the US and her husband spent the next 4 hours helping me solve a problem on my boat for free. And he usually charged EVERYBODY by the hour.

The other thing is not to understimate the effect of small gifts. We once used a mooring in a popular anchorage in the Pacific that ordinarily cost $25 a day. Unwittingly, my wife gave the children of the owner of the mooring a whole lot of fun but almost valueless toys. They were so thrilled the gifts, and their dad was so thrilled at us taking the time to be nice to his kids, that after staying on his mooring for 5 days, he bluntly refused to charge us anything for the stay and, on top of that, allowed us to to refill our water tanks FOC where other boats were paying for the pleasure.


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## chall03

Blu,

I think when we do the big cruise it is going to be very much with a shoestring approach perhaps similar to yours.....Like I said in my above post we have a modernised and slightly modified 'Pardey' approach.

We currently have a 27 footer, yet are members of club where most of the cruising folk are retiree's in 40-50 footers. We sometimes get the reaction you talked about as well, but most of them are pretty welcoming and aren't much worried that we are slumming around with them in our little boat. Alot of them started themselves in similar sized boats.

I think Sailnet is pretty similar, I don't think there is a fight to be had here Blu. No one here has ever judged me for the size of my boat or the style of my sailing here.

I also think Cam made a very good point earlier as well....



camaraderie said:


> As I read these threads with the theme "go now...go small...but go" I think about all the cruising couples we've come in contact with over the last few years and it seems to me that the vast majority of the boats that I will call "campers" have packed it in. Some because the money ran out, some because it wasn't fun anymore and some because one of the two said "enough".
> Living on a small boat at anchor for extended periods of time requires a LOT of adjustment and most couples are not up to it. It is tough enough on a larger boat. Interestingly, I see a lot of single guys on small boats that have been doing it for a while and seem happy enough.
> 
> OK...I'll get to my point. If you are considering living aboard and cruising, it is easy for the dream to obscure the reality. *I think you have to be very realistic about what level of comfort and inconvenience you can put up with for years on end. *If you are not honest about this with yourself, you will end up unhappy and with a short cruise. There is a huge difference for a couple living aobrd a 40+ foot boat with complete systems and going off on a 30 footer. It costs a lot more to buy AND live aboard the larger boat so that means delaying cruising or adjusting the duration planned if 40'+ is what will work for you.
> None of this is to say "don't go small"... just be sure you BOTH can handle it. I do subscribe to the theory of GO as soon as you are able to do it in the manner which will make you happy!


I guess its simple, most of us spend what we can afford to spend at a level that provides an acceptable level of comfort.

Having said that.... Could we all benefit from toughening up a bit?? Probably


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## Valiente

hellosailor said:


> "a box of pencils"
> If THOSE have barter value, how about the disposable/refillable mechanical pencils, often on sale before school season 6/$1 or so.
> Or do you plan to give away sharpeners and then sell pencils?(G)


I was citing it as an example of cheap and common items I can carry in bulk that may translate to trade goods in certain places. A waiter at my boat club came to Canada from Cuba 3 1/2 years ago and said that the plan I got from a now-dead cruiser to bring lots of kids' T-shirts to Cuba was still a great way to make friends and meet people...because Cubans have difficulty getting T-shirts.

My point is that simple trade activity can supply simple items that are not necessarily in ready supply in all places without seeming to be either exploitive, akin to a bribe, or an "in your face, Third World!" move, none of which are liable to make for a happy anchorage. Obviously, I can pay for stuff on passage, but if the point is to see the people of other countries, and not just while they are working for peanuts in Western-style marinas, then I think some effort should be made to engage them in a way that offers them some incentive.


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## Valiente

I guess I'm giving away my age when I say that I can recall being able to sharpen wooden pencils without a pencil sharpener. Maybe as gift the clutch pencil is good but for on my boat, only wooden pencils. If I have to, I can sharpen them with my teeth!!

Hey, if you have teeth that strong still, you're probably good for a few years yet.

Anyway, the reason for my post is just to share some experiences that I have had. Firstly, if you are planning on selling your skills to less skilled sailors, you need to be careful about making friends. I have had several occasions in anchorages where I have invited poeple to our boat, put up a decent (but inexpensive) meal, opened a bottle of wine and in discussion spoke of a problem I was experiencing (as we all do). I would get advice and assistance from the guest, freely offered, only to discover the next day that he charged another boat for the same advice because they just up and asked him. By being freindly, I got the service for free. This will happen to you too except you'll be giving. It's hard to charge your new buddy!

Yes, we've considered this. While we plan on working very much on an ad-hoc basis, the element of barter would tend to keep things friendly. We are also willing to trade skills, like "we'll scrape the crap off your hull if you repair our head" (some people would consider this a good trade!). An approach we've considered is announcing on cruiser nets that we are available for "consultation" before we arrive, but this obviously skirts the prohibition on commercial activities. Another tack is to list skills on boat cards...along with issuing really nice boat cards. Word will likely get out.

If it doesn't, it's not critical. As I said, ad hoc. One idea I had was anchor recycling: In some popular anchorages, it is likely that there are unbuoyed, snagged or otherwise abandoned anchors on the seabed that might be retrievable by diving on them. Get the kid to chip off the barnacles, replace a couple of clevis or cotter pins, and sell 'em to other cruisers at cut-rate. Or trade them for diesel, or crates of beer. You see where I'm going with this.

An example: A guy's wife wanted desperately to call home. The local phones were rubbish. We had an Iridium phone on board. After a liesurely dinner, she made a $10 call to the US and her husband spent the next 4 hours helping me solve a problem on my boat for free. And he usually charged EVERYBODY by the hour.

Yes, this is very much how we would like to work. Something that meant ten bucks to you had a huge payoff. And yet I bet the fellow who gave you four hours of free consultation and labour felt quite satisfied with the transaction, because it was a problem with his wife he otherwise could not solve. Imagine if I can make a laptop talk to a printer or a GPS on a modern cruiser!

The other thing is not to understimate the effect of small gifts. We once used a mooring in a popular anchorage in the Pacific that ordinarily cost $25 a day. Unwittingly, my wife gave the children of the owner of the mooring a whole lot of fun but almost valueless toys. They were so thrilled the gifts, and their dad was so thrilled at us taking the time to be nice to his kids, that after staying on his mooring for 5 days, he bluntly refused to charge us anything for the stay and, on top of that, allowed us to to refill our water tanks FOC where other boats were paying for the pleasure.

I am very pleased to hear this, not because you saved money, but because the currency of simple friendliness still has value. Because our boat is a big steel thing with lots of deck and the ability to tie down stuff, it is quite possible for me to give either people or "light freight" a lift from island to island, and if I wasn't trying to dodge a cyclone or otherwise needed to get somewhere to a clock or calendar, I wouldn't have an issue solving a local problem. Having a kid on board makes one more approachable, I think, as does having a boat that, no matter how much I spend on paint, will _never _say "rich Western bastard".


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## Corvair

quidam1947 said:


> So you like Mojito's. I posted this on another thread but here's our recipe...


Mailed home for further review! Can't make these at work


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## SailorGregS

ianhlnd said:


> Waverider
> I would like to take umbrage with some of your remarks unfortunately, yours is a common attitude of a lot of Canadians and especially those that I grew up with as a native of Halifax, and later the Okanogan valley in BC, my family has over 300 yrs in that country. The best thing that ever happened is that my father decided to move to California during the war and "Americanized" us all. Besides Halifax, as an adult I've worked in Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver and I've seen the same attitude amoung my compatriots as you apparently have.
> 
> The fact is without the US at your southern boarder, you probably would have disolved into separate provinces and then into chaos. I'm not sure Canada is even a country anymore anyway. The US provides all your defence, financial investment opportunity, produce and foodstuffs, The government is the greatest employer, 20% on the pogey, AND, explain Quebec???? Maybe you don't remember when the separationists were blowing up cafes and gathering places of the "english". And Rene Lesveque (sp) tried two times to separate do you remember the referendums? IMHO Canada has slipped into a socialist morass since the second world war when canada had some backbone.
> 
> I do agree and I don't like it that Iraq is costing the US a lot in lives and dollars, which could be best spent elsewhere, and, I don't like the US being the world's policeman. But If not us, who? Canadians? French? In my perfect world, the US would worry only about things within its boarders, and let the rest of the world go to hell if that's where they want to go. Korea and Iran with Nukes, hell, give some to Somalia, Niger, Botswana, So Korea, Thailand, and any other country that wants them.
> 
> Sorry for venting, but your post rung my bell at the wrong time.


I'm wondering if I should respond to this, or just let it go. It seems someone needs a history lesson, a civics lesson, as well an economic one.


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## winterbuoy

Ya, he wrote that in 06 so me thinks times have changed. Not a very bright comment on his part but hey it's a free, sort-of world. I am also a Canadian and some times I think, although they are our brothers, Americans seem to think the rest of the world does not exist. Guess I'm in trouble for that comment!


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## SailorGregS

I'm not sure who this guy is, but he doesn't come across as very bright, especially when we can view his comments in the context of time.

Someone asked me about investing options, and I have a simple formula to attain the 6% I get year in and year out. I have always staggered or laddered my fixed paper, taking it out long. The paper I've purchased ranges from a mature date of 2011 to 2029. Stipped coupons, GIC's and bonds. Then I only purchase ETF's, never mutual funds. The only people who make money with mutual funds are the managers. My EFT's are balanced into sectors, and they pay a dividend, same for Income Trusts until the year 2011. I only buy an equity holding if it pays a dividend, if the company can't pay a dividend why invest in it. Canadians get a dividend tax credit, so a dividend that pays 3, 4 or 5% is awesome. Also, holding Canadian banks is the best stock to hold, they have never missed paying a dividend. Selecting these tools and you will get 6%, I do it and I get it.

Current tax laws in Canada allow for an individuals income of $36,000 per year of dividend income not to be taxed. So a couple can bring in $72,000 per year before any tax payable. That would take the other guys to make $140,000 per year using conventional income. Sweet!!

Now is the time to buy great companies cheap. Look at the stock price as a two for one, and take the extra shares to pay you income. Once the economy turns you will greatly increase your investment income.


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## hellosailor

Thanks, Greg. I'm not sure your past investments can be replicated in today's market though, especially by Americans. 

For instance, Bank of Montreal (BMO) stock is down from 51+ to 19+ over the past year, today's value. Dividend is down to 2.27 ? A very different picture from what they were only a year or two ago. And rather than get your dividend tax break, I think Americans would be subject to both our taxes and Canadian ones--reducing the yield still further. I haven't even looked at the potential risk from a bank failure but given the global financial problems, that's something I suspect will affect bankis worldwide too.

ETFs only work if the industry they are basketing is making a profit in one way or another. This year, it seems to be a question of which ones lose the least--none may show a profit. Scary. What ETFs have you seen making a profit since January 1st? (Other than ones which are uninsured in somewhat risky placements.) There don't seem to be any ETFs of Canadian banks.


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## kjango

There has never been , There is not now , & there never will be SECURITY . If you want to sail . You figure out what you have to do to sail to the next place & do it . Same for the next place ....... & the next . Whatever you think you own is an illusion that will always be subject to the whims of entities you will never have control over & then you'll die . So if you want to do something in life......you're best served being about doing it . If you must , you can still read books by shoe clerks , while you're doing it .


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## SailorGregS

Granted, these are unprecedented times, the devaluation of the markets is unheard of. Last April and again in August my wife and I reduced our portfolio holdings to 85% fixed, the remaining in ETF's. The result is that we are down 9% vs 30-40% from many of our friends. I would expect this year we will be up, maybe 4-5%. If I average these past two years with our previous 5-7-10 etc, we are way ahead.

Canadian Banks are the best to invest in, I wouldn't purchase an American bank. The American banking system is one of the worst there is, so putting your own money into that system is foolhardy. The last 3 months I've purchased Pengrowth Income Trust, ARC Energy (21% Dividend) as well as our Banks. The dividends they pay are excellent, although the share price has been greatly reduced, they are a bargin. Petro Canada is another company who's shares have dropped, pay a sweet dividend of over 3%. If you want a nice company that has always paid, more often then the banks there's Russel Metals, RUS.TO, based upon current share price the dividend is over 16%. We loaded upon on this company over the last 3 months. We've been through these recessions before, the last one I didn't have the money to invest, this time I do. With the gains that we'll realize with the recovery we will purchase our bigger boat.

"When others are greedy be fearful, when others are fearful be greedy"

Time for dividend-producing shares

These are excellent days to be greedy. Getting rich isn't so much about being smarter than everyone else, it's just some common sense, asking questions, and spending an hour a day on some research.

I guarantee that the money we've repositioned, invested on bargin stocks will get us the boat we want at half price. Meaning for example, our principal will be $75k, it will grow to $150k and we can get a boat valued at $150k using $75K of our own money, while the rest is growth. This is the exact same thing we did with our house.


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## hellosailor

"Russel Metals, RUS.TO, based upon current share price the dividend is over 16%."
I don't see it. They're down from last year's high of about 30 to 10 now, share price, with an annual total dividend of 1.65. Which may be 16.5% of the 10 share price--but you'd have had to buy in near 25 to have held it all year, making the dividend more like 6.6% while the value of the stock lost 66%. 
And, one can assume, everyone will be cutting dividends as they run out of cash and values continue to be depressed.

As Willy Sutton said, he robbed banks because that's where the cash was. Some years ago our FBI/DOJ statistics showed better than a 90% success rate for major bank robberies. Hmmmm.....


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## SailorGregS

I can only assume that you, like any prudent investor has dumped stocks prior to the melt down. This is the context that I'm referring to, which is what I did to a large extent. Limiting my loss to only 9%. Holding good companies historically, then when the gig was up unloading them. 

I would hope that the melt down in the US was foreseen, because the writing was on the wall. We all witnessed, Bush spend money on the Iraq invasion, the housing market was about to crash because of mortgages. These issues weren't new, they just didn't occur overnight. 

If you are an American investor I can't really comment on what happens in the US - sorry. As for Canadians, we are in a great position to gain wealth. Laurentian Bank, RBC, Montreal, etc., all great to purchase. Your example of RUS.TO, reflects purchasing stocks after dumping them last spring and summer. Buying them since December 1st, and averaging the share price, which pays a great dividend. Using 6.6% as you indicate is terrific, then holding it outside the RRSP, will provide a dividend tax credit. This is more like a return of 8%. Hey, I target 6%, and go with the World Banks target of 2% inflation for the next 10 years. I know the math is simple, the formula is simple as well, plus it's tried and true.

Here's another one for you. Which type of industry do we all hate, we all HAVE to pay, and never loses money? Insurance Companies!! These companies are personally one that I hate, all I do is give them money. Insurance for Life, Cars, House, Cottage, Boat, and motorcycles. Not once have I ever made a claim! People that do, are reamed for trying. I own stock in the Insurance Co. sector, because they will never go out of business. Never! Sure they will get share value fluctuation, but they always pay the dividend.

If the share price drops 5% it's sold, automatically. It takes the worry out of horrific losses.


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## FrancoC

Phew, I just finished reading this thread. I laughed reading all the posts that were written in 2006-7 and dealt with money and investments, especially the list of plumbers and electricians grossing well over $100k. I think it is now evident to everybody (everybody who is paying attention, that is) that the killer returns in stocks, killer returns in housing, big salaries, etc. that the USA has had for the past who knows how long, are the result of monetary inflation that has produced bubbles here and there. Just look up a chart of the M3 money supply over the past few decades and you'll see. Realistically it is very difficult to get returns from investments that exceed the rate of inflation (real inflation, not the phony CPI-U number) by more than 1 or 2%. I would say to people making plans to go cruising: don't count on your stocks or your real estate to make you rich, now or ever.

And to get back to a cruising topic, I'd like to say that my plan is to own a 30-40 ft boat within not too many years and go cruising off of Corpus Christi, TX with the wife and kids. Too bad that I can't find much cruising information on the Eastern Mexican waters from the Texas border to the Yucatan peninsula. Why isn't much written about that area?


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## SailorGregS

It's too bad that you are a casual investor FrancoC, casuals only loose money. If you practice some common sense principals you will always make money over the long run. We have, and continue to do so. Our son's RESP has made money every year, including last year. It's guaranteed!

Inflation means different things to different people. Core inflation is core, even that is an individual number. We don't drive much so the price of gas is almost irrelevant, as is the price of items we don't use.

Like I said before, I will get our boat at half price, then go cruising. Using my tax free dividend payout, CPP pays out a couple around $20K per year. Actually, we could cruise on our Canada Pension Plan alone, without using my wifes government pension or our RRSP/RRIF's.

If you live in Canada, and you are a working professional couple you can retire early and retire with as much money as you need to cruise nicely.


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## FrancoC

SailorGregS said:


> It's too bad that you are a casual investor FrancoC


I'm not a casual investor. And you are assuming that inflation over the next 10 years will be 2%? Look, that may apply to you, but most people do need gasoline, doctors, food, etc. Real inflation for real people who need all those things in the USA has been much, much higher than 2% for many years. Closer to 10%. Maybe Canada is different.


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## SailorGregS

2% isn't my assumption, it comes from the World Bank. Then, from their estimate, I look at Inflation and Core Inflation as it pertains to me and my family living in Canada. The USA is a first world country, much like Canada, and I can't believe that you are facing double digit inflation. I could be wrong, but would be very surprised if that was the case. My healthcare is totally covered by our government, my personal taxes have gone down, price of gas has dropped, and we don't drive very much. Food is of course a huge item, and where I live my property taxes have gone up $400 in 17yrs. Our personal inflation is 2% +/- .5%. 

My point is, using common sense, an hour per day and steady Eddie investing living well or very well is not an illusion. Oh, and don't buy mutual funds.

I hope you make a ton of money FrancoC, and that you can buy and sell all of us.


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## SailorGregS

FrancoC is just took a look at the inflation rate for the US.

All items 2007 - 3.0%
All items 2008 - 4.0%

The highest inflation the USA has seen recently was a spike in 1991 where it hit around 6%.


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## FrancoC

Those are the government numbers. Ask anybody who lives in the USA if inflation has been 3-4% for the past several years. I'm talking about the real cost of living for real people. You should read up on the tricks that the US government uses to inflate GDP numbers and deflate inflation numbers, mainly substitution, weighting, and hedonics.


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## hellosailor

Inflation rate is a meaningless term unless you specify which rate you are using. IIRC the official government rates in the US do not include the price of housing--which real life does. Among other things.

The ethanol nonsense has disrupted many food prices, many things in the supermarket have gone up more than 2-4% in the past year. Gasoline doubled and halved...but how you factor that will be pretty much arbitrary. Milk went up way more than 4%. What went down? Oh, right, wages. Hmmm...

In the US an RESP is an educational savings plan. Meaningless to investors in general, only valid if you're saving for schooling. No magic in RESPs, any other funding group in theory can do the same.

Of course, if it was so easy to ensure a profit--how come the _sharpest _economists still lost 17-20% in their funds over the last years? None of the professionals seems to be claiming they made any profit last year, which says something about the "science" of economics.


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## CaptainForce

I just scanned these postings and it amazes me how many people relate their ability to go cruising with the economy of the US vs, Canada or the economy in any fashion. We don't have a designated "crusing kitty". I'm not sure what that is. We moved aboard a sailboat and started crusing in our twenties. We worked, we bought groceries, we had a budget and we did some cruising. We stayed on a sailboat in our thirties, we worked, we had two children, we did some cruising. If you live in a house or you live on a boat the costs can be similar,- more or less depending on your pleasure or abilities. We retired iat 55 so we're doing more cruising now as we are in our sixties. All this conflict about financials and nationalities may be sport for some, but it's not cruising. We're in Florida now and headed for Maine for the summer. We'll spend some money, but not as much as we would if we had a house and cars and all the stuff that goes with them. 'take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## SailorGregS

It's perfectly clear to me why so many people are in financial trouble. People don't understand the basics.

For RESP's, they grow tax free, and are drawn out tax free when used for education, they also get an instant 10% return. Even if you hold them in cash only they get 10%! How? The government will automatically contribute 20% fo what you contribute up to $2,000. The limit is $4,000 per child per year. So we put in $4,000, the gov gave us $400. Simple and easy 10%. All tax free! We've done that since our son was born, 11 1/2 yrs ago. Bottom line, his University will be paid for on growth and we won't pay a single tax dollar.

Investing professionals? They buy and hold, a stupid strategy, and doesn't work. I would never use a so-called Investing Professional, they use your money to make them money by getting commission and trailer fees. A CFP with a book value of $100 million dollars makes $150k approx per year. That's all commission and trailers, doesn't matter if the book makes money.

Save money, if you watch closely you will notice things that people miss and those things will make you money.

Life is good folks, enjoy it.


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## hellosailor

"an instant 10% return. "
Only in Canadia* so why would the rest of the world know about them? Much less be able to use them?
You are mistaking government sponsored social engineering for an "investment", Greg. While the social engineering may have the same net benefit for you--it is not an investment. It is simply tax re-allocation by your government, designed to encourage higher education. Which may be a good investment for your government, if that results in folks who can pay higher taxes back to it.
But no, that's not an investment per se, and certainly not one available to investors in general. As opposed to in Canadia, eh?


(*Canadia, an imaginary kingdom not to be confused with Canada, or any other real place.)


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## SailorGregS

I don't think you understand.

The premise of the RESP is for parents to save for a child's education, with relief of tax. Since this per child limit of now, $5000 up from $4200. The government will provide a grant of $500 up to the $2500 grant limit, which equates to a nice 20% return, automatic. Since we contribute the maximum of $5,000, we still receive the $500 contribution from the government or a nice automatic 10% return. That's without doing anything.

You see in Canada, our education system and standard of living is extremely high, largely due to our educated workforce. Our literacy rate is among the highest in the world, as is our standard of living. Our government see's a real benefit in an educated population. The burden is removed from them, and the banks when students borrow billions and don't pay it back. That's what happens in the US.

Anyway, it's too bad you don't have this option and the added savings option of a Tax Free Savings Account, with the RRSP's. Living in Canada is without a doubt the best place on earth. With our economy being the first to rebound after this recession, the investment potential is almost limitless.

Here's a tip to let you cruise and get paid for it.

Invest $100,000 in Pengrowth trust, this will provide a monthly dividend payout (on last statement) of .17 cents per share. For a yearly income of $28,100. Leave all your other money in fixed secure paper, and live you life on the boat and relax. When you come back from cruising, the value of the holding will be double, and the dividend payout will just keep coming.


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## Freesail99

The Pengrowth trust just reduced their dividend payout.

Pengrowth Energy Trust Announces Cash Distribution for March 16, 2009: Market Wire Business News: PGH - MSN Money


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## SailorGregS

They sure did, I hope you worked out the average annual return on that dividend? You will probably hit a percentage number higher than the 6% return target I eluded to in my first post. Don't forget the preferrential tax treatment, which provides another advantage.

All it needs to do is make 4% in dividend payouts to make me happy, anything more is a bonus.


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## hellosailor

FromPengrpwth's web site today:


CASH DISTRIBUTIONS (CDN $) 
Current distribution $0.10 
Date payable Mar 16, 09 
Year to date $0.44 
Next declaration Mar 19, 09 
Unit price $CDN 6.17

CASH DISTRIBUTIONS (U.S. $) 
Current distribution $0.0794* 
Unit price USD$4.79

Which makes...19.4% annualized (distribution times 12 months, assuming it is the same percent) for Canadians, and 19.89% for gringos. WOW.

Except...it was trading here at $20US back in June and it is $4.79 now...So you'd have lost 76% of the share value while making 20% interest. Still a NET LOSS OF 56% in less than a year. (Worse, once the numbers were adjusted monthly to match values.)

And of course, a gamble on what will happen to buy in now, when they're cutting dividends and there's no assurance share values will go up anytime soon.

What's the Chinese curse? "May you live in interesting times." ? 
We're in 'em.


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## erps

> You see in Canada, our education system and standard of living is extremely high, largely due to our educated workforce. Our literacy rate is among the highest in the world, as is our standard of living. Our government see's a real benefit in an educated population. The burden is removed from them, and the banks when students borrow billions and don't pay it back. That's what happens in the US.
> 
> Anyway, it's too bad you don't have this option and the added savings option of a Tax Free Savings Account, with the RRSP's. Living in Canada is without a doubt the best place on earth. With our economy being the first to rebound after this recession, the investment potential is almost limitless.


Sounds great. How much of your standard living do you suppose is subsidized by your neighbor to the south paying 4% of their GDP for defense while you guys kick in 1%?

List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SailorGregS

Hello Sailor, that's assuming you adhere to the Buy and Hold strategy. Which nobody would do, or should do. Like I said, we sold equities last April, and August - smart. When the value dropped by 5% the are sold, it's automatic. Professional investors say Buy and Hold, that's because they need those monthly trailer fees. Remember the Canadian return is higher than US, we get the dividend tax credit. Also, you paid on dividend distribution, not capital value. For example; if you own 10,000 shares you own them regardless of share price. It could be $5 or $500, obviously a drop in share price would affect the distribution. But, the percentage return of the total personal cash outlay can easily be measured.

Also, equities in this economic environment, depending on many factors should be in the 15% range of your total portfolio holdings.

Like I said, again, we started buying Pengrowth Trust again 2 months ago, buying great companies cheap is good. My dividend payout is sweet, because I have tons of shares, all purchased cheap, and if the share value drops by 5% it's sold - automatically. Please read again if you don't fully understand.

Erps, Canada doesn't have much of a defense budget, we don't really need one - everybody loves us! Unfortunately for you guys George Bush got into office and stayed there. He totally destroyed any foreign good will, and his desire to control world oil really messed things up. But you are in good hands now. Great for you guys!! 

Wikipedia can be edited by anyone.

The boating community is one of the best on earth, you guys are awesome!


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## hellosailor

Greg-
"Hello Sailor, that's assuming you adhere to the Buy and Hold strategy."
I don't understand how you can collect dividends, if you don't hold the stock long enough to do so. Can't get one without the other.
Buying now? Great, if recovery starts. Not so great if things continue to drop. I expected to see a readjustment from 14000 to 8000 on the Dow, just based on the last ones. But 6500 with real major economic issues still behind it...things could still drop.


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## imagine2frolic

Nothing in life is a given. Go with what you have, and adjust along the way. Some trade work, and sailing regularly. Some like myself takes years off, and return to work. I went at 41, and spent 2 years going in, and out of Mexico while the boat was in Mexico. It was great.

I went again at 51, and took 4 years going in, and out of the bahamas with the boat, and no work. I could have stayed gone forever, but listened to my wife instead, and now I am back at work.

LOLOLOLOL 61 looks like the magic number, or this fall to leave once again, but for good. I have seen too many live with regrets, and when all the ducks were in a row. Health would become an issue, or they haven't the stamina. Everybody gets through life differently. My way doesn't work for others. I couldn't wait to do it their way. BEST WISHES in how ever you make it work. I find nothing sweeter than living on the hook. Including the 2am squall scenarios....lolololol.....i2f


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## SailorGregS

"Buy and Hold" typically means, in the eyes of a CFP, for years, decades - actually Mutual Funds are structured this way and it totally sucks.

The play now is to buy as many quality shares you can while they are cheap. I could be wrong, but I've been through this before and it's kinda like a no brainer.

Here's a way to look at it. Let's say your portfolio is a yoyo on a string, it goes up and down all the time. But, you are holding onto that yoyo while you are walking up a flight of stairs.

You don't have to use Pentgrowth Income Trust, it's just an example of one of our holdings. You can go with anything you feel is Blue Chip. Personally, I don't think Oil/Gas is going anywhere, I think we are always going to need it, and that as a commodity the governments around the world will regulate inventories and price. It makes the world go around. Just be cautious, ask questions and try to notice things that others don't.

It's a great game!


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## SailorGregS

imagine2frolic I really like your outlook on life.


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## erps

> Erps, Canada doesn't have much of a defense budget, we don't really need one - everybody loves us! Unfortunately for you guys George Bush got into office and stayed there. He totally destroyed any foreign good will, and his desire to control world oil really messed things up. But you are in good hands now. Great for you guys!!


Well I suspect your standard of living is greatly subsidized by having America as your neighbor and as far as your opinions on our leadership you have to be aware than not everyone agrees with your conclusion. Best wishes to you on your goal of financial independence. Sounds like you have a good plan.



> "Buy and Hold" typically means, in the eyes of a CFP, for years, decades - actually Mutual Funds are structured this way and it totally sucks.
> 
> The play now is to buy as many quality shares you can while they are cheap. I could be wrong, but I've been through this before and it's kinda like a no brainer.


I'm one of the knuckleheads that went with mutual funds. I always thought my dividend checks came from sales by the portfolio manager?

So you're going to buy quality stocks now while they're cheap? and then what, hold them? I hope the mutual fund managers are reading this. They might do the same thing and make me some money.


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## SailorGregS

Trust me, our standard of living has nothing to do with military and it's correlation of percentage of GDP which is directly related to a perverse foreign policy. I'm fully aware that not everyone agrees with my conclusion of George Bush's legacy, but I'm fully aware that more agree with me than don't.

I wouldn't say that you are a knucklehead for owning Mutual Funds, I too have owned them and am equally guilty. Your dividend cheques certainly came in, they are just not as high as they should be. If you prepared a portfolio using ETF's, you can have the same exposure to those market sectors the MF's are in BUT - you can sell them. Take a look at any mutual fund, and call any mutual fund company and ask them about their investing philosophy. They will all tell you the same thing.

Yes, I am buying quality stock right now, have been for two months. Once they stocks slide by 5% they are sold, automatically. This is not an emotional decision, it's simply a technical decision. Once they start to move up at least 2%, I buy them - automatically. Of course these triggers are invoked when the buying or selling climate is correct.

I'm telling you it's a simple process, and if you are serious about mutual funds check out this website.

The Robertson Index: Canadian Mutual Fund Information and Objective Evaluations - currently being updated but a good tool for Mutual fund investors.


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## SailorGregS

I don't like "I told you so's" But if you purchased Manulife yesterday and Pengrowth, you could have sent the "sell" call out and made a nice profit.

March 9th my Manulife purchase was approx 10 per share, today, so far it's 13.17 - 25% gain. If it drops to 20 it's sold.

Pengrowth Income Trust, last purchase 5.93 as of right now, it's up 10%.

Capital growth, plus dividend payouts that never have been missed.

If you can buy Canadian Bank Stock and Insurance companies.

reportonbusiness.com: Canada envy, amid a global meltdown


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## bb74

Greg,

You may mean the best however the tone and sarcasm of the past few pages of posts is unwarranted to say the least. You may not be aware of the reality of many families out there, but many are having hard times and not all of this is due to their own financial planning skills. I've looked thru the posts on this link and although it was to have been about the "cruising life", somehow it has turned into a ...I told you so.... debate on investing and how anyone taking a different line than yours is a dope.

I commend you on making 6% these past years (but I guess you could have done that with just about any index fund eh?) and I hope for your sake you can continue to do so for the coming years which will be dramatically different IF the US decides to once and for all stop creation artificial growth based on suprlus money supply (high priced short term revolving credit).

No point in kicking people in the nuts while they're on their knees so please go easy on the "how much I made today" stuff. Please.

Regards,


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## SailorGregS

Hey bb74, that's the problem with message boards, 90% of the message isn't spoken or written.

Anyway, if you use the information I have provided and have user personally you won't suffer to the extent of other.

Good luck folks! If you have the cash, start buying and thank me later.


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## erps

> Trust me, our standard of living has nothing to do with military and it's correlation of percentage of GDP which is directly related to a perverse foreign policy.


I disagree.


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## SailorGregS

erps said:


> I disagree.


Doesn't matter if you disagree or not, it's true, can't change fact.

I really am taking exception to your tone, and how you seem to be over patriotic. You seem to take pleasure in dissing our great country. When all I've done is take the time to help people with their cruising kitty. I may be off side on this one, but you are being too negative to me and to my great country, Canada, and you are trying to take what liberties you think exist.

If you wish to discuss any topic I will be more than happy to accommodate you in a private dialogue. If you don't understand simple everyday fact then there's not much I can do but wish you luck and much happiness.

Good luck my friend.


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## erps

> I really am taking exception to your tone, and how you seem to be over patriotic. You seem to take pleasure in dissing our great country. When all I've done is take the time to help people with their cruising kitty. I may be off side on this one, but you are being too negative to me and to my great country, Canada, and you are trying to take what liberties you think exist.


My tone is factual. You have been exposed now. I'll let your words and mine speak for themselves.


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## SailorGregS

It seems like your one of the bailout receipients.

The great thing about long term investing is the rule of 72. If you take your rate of return and divide 72 by that value, the result is the number of years it takes your money to double. For example; if you get 10% on your money and divide 72 by it, then your money will double in value in 7.2 yrs.

The rule of 72 works very well, and it's geared towards the long term investor.

Here's another tip that might help with some decision making, and hopefully make you a ton of money.

Now that we've had months of bad new hitting the newspapers, airways, and websites everyone is getting used to it. The impact of bad news doesn't have the same physiological affect on people, which in turn makes the markets fluctuate wildly. If you have the money available, all the bad news coming out in the months to come won't make the market dive 10-12%.


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## erps

> It seems like your one of the bailout receipients.


Nope, you would be wrong, which indicates evidence of poor judgment or a personal attack.

Thanks for sharing your investment advice although I'm a little surprised that a person with your knowledge and experience hasn't retired yet. After all, I'm just an ordinary fellow about the same age as you (if anything you say can still be taken as a fact) who has already married off a daughter, subsidized my son's college education, my boat is paid for and our condo is nearly paid for. Although our taxed and untaxed mutual fund portfolios took a big hit, I'm pretty confident that they will come back, as we're in it for the long term. The proof is in the pudding that a fellow like me with no financial savvy can get good results by not following your recommendations with steady investments into mutual funds.


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## hellosailor

"If you have the money available, all the bad news coming out in the months to come won't make the market dive 10-12%."
Hmmm...but the S&P 500 went from 683 to 750 last week alone, that's almost a 10% swing. And while it and the Dow are up this week--they've had greater weekly ups in the last year, followed by downs of way more than 10%. Even in one month, not to mention the year.

If what you are doing is working for you, great. I'd have to assume it is different from what you are suggesting here, where the numbers just add up the opposite way.


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## SailorGregS

It's interesting to me reading the comments back to see how people get into serious financial trouble, and end up on Dr. Phil. 

But, whatever works, I hope it does for everyone. What ever will contribute to your cruising kitty. Just don't buy mutual funds, they are a poor mans tool for investing, and hardly ever produce. With MER's in the 2%+ range, that assures the managers make money.

Build the same thing as a MF by using ETF's and have fee's in the .25% range. It's a no brainer.

There is a fly in the ointment, and it comes in like this. The economy and lifestyle of the American public is controlled by the Chinese. If the Chinese decide to call the US on the notes, then the US will collapse, which will send the world economy into turmoil. Let's hope the Chinese government will allow the USA to exist, and keep buying notes and doesn't call. The US government has to assure the Chinese that they still offer a good investment, and that they will repay their loans. If they can't we are all in trouble.


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## Architeuthis

Here is a recent blog post I made on the topic. 

Many think that living aboard is cheaper than living on land. Lets go Sailing it only costs about $10G a year, this or that book says so!

First thing to realize is that most everybody are deluded, forgetful or just plain lying when there money involved. This is even more so the case when there is money to be made from a book. 

As to the question about money or the real cost of sailing, cruising or living aboard:

The reality is it, as you've likely already determined, varies and depends on many things including risk tolerance. Wealth, Age and family situation are just a few issues effecting risk tolerance.

So nobody can tell you what kind of money you need to do this (I liveaboard) only you can tell you. 

The best advice on what you need this is: It costs the same as living ashore. If you spent $10G to live last year, then you should be able to get away with $10G. If you spent $50G then you will need about $50G. BUT....

People lie about money. God might be able to help them but they (posters, bloggers and book writers) can't help it. It gets worst if they write a book, particularly if they let time do their lying for them. Yeah right anybody can live off a couple hundred grand of investments or savings! If you only have a couple hundred grand left in investments do not throw what is left of your million dollar 401K away on a dream. Unless of course you are the type to do that, LOL. 

We've sold everything to move aboard, all the chips are on the table, even the continuing to decline retirement fund is part of the plan.(that was our self insurance). When I mention this most of the liveaboard/Cruisers they say the same thing, but.....

It takes very little discussion to find out that they have pensions, retirement funds, cars, houses, property, family and generally speaking lots of money, assets, and safety nets. 

This is a rich mans sport or lifestyle, at least if you want it to be comfortable. 

We are rich so we can do this. If you are not rich it is much tougher. Now we are rapidly becoming not rich (yet again) so we have money issues but we still have a very nice boat. If we can keep it I will continue to feel rich even if I have to work for $10hr. 

There are some who are living on the cheap but clearly it is temporary. Even the younger cruisers (most likely to pull off cheap living just as on land) are not going to be able to pull of the no work lifestyle for long. 

Now if you do not mind camping then just like living on land it can be done quite cheaply. We had a 30yr old Alberg before we got this boat and personally I'm glad we sold it and got this 10X more expensive boat. There is nothing wrong with using a bucket and living in a damp boat but for myself the view would not make up for such short comings. 

For others they would not consider using a bucket or having a damp boat as a short coming but a means to a view. 

Now lets assume those saying you can do this on the cheap really did live on $20G last year, and lets assume they did the same the previous year and hope to do the same next year. What are they leaving out?

Almost always these folks leave out the fact that they are consuming the boat. Many do not even know it or will find out until it comes time to sell. I personally know of such situations. In one case a total of about $40G was spent on the $25G boat (again people lie/deluded) which was sold at the end of it all for $5G. 

We looked at several such boats before buying this one that fit that category. One in particular was purchased/upgraded for about $75G then sailed the South Pacific,. It provided material for a book on how to cruise on the cheap and was then put up for sale. You can be sure that they are not factoring in the $50,000 bath they took on selling a leaky boat full of rusting equipment after just a few years of cruising on the cheap. 

It costs money to maintain a boat. The best way, maybe only way, to limit that is to buy a cheap boat, one that already as an oar in Davies locker. 

Generally if you do not mind camping on the forest floor with the damp, insects, and lack of food (bin der don dat) then cruising on the cheap is for you. If you do like that then you can make that lifestyle quite comfortable (I have, including sub-arctic winter camping) and the same it will be with sailing on the cheap. 

IMO the stories about cruising or living on the romantic cheap are just that stories. Keep the fantasy part of your life in your brain and life will be much better. Ask those who thought a mistress would be great fun! It is, as long as the fantasy does not become reality. 

JOBS

Another issue to consider are those who say they are cruising but do paid work while doing so. Yes this is possible but not for most of us. Right now as I write this I would like to add some money to the kitty to replace the money taken by the markets and currency traders. To do so while I'm in this foreign country is illegal. If I do not mind breaking the law then no problem and most people to break laws.

Illegality: 
Many people doing these great things are not following the law. I do not follow all the laws (heck I don't even know them all) so no holier than thou here but we all have our limits. If you want to follow the laws it gets expensive. 

Example: 
I know of one boat currently cruising the south pacific, often bloggin about how cheap it is (yes a book is in the works) who is flying the flag of a certain country. A country in which they have not paid the taxes for the boat. When their trip has ended and they have sold the boat before returning to that country they will face a tax bill of $10G to $20G (just a guess based on the almost new boat). Since they have deliberately avoided paying the tax by the due date (tax was due when boat was documented) they run the risk of having a penalty fee of another $10G to $20G. If they cruise for 4yrs are they likely to add $5G+ to their annual costs? Are they even likely to mention it in a book about cruising costs? 

Not if they want to sell books. People buy books on how to sail on the cheap because they want to believe they can fulfill a fantasy. They are not going to buy a book that tells them they cannot afford to lead the lifestyle they dream off. Hence the reason I do not think I can write a successful sailing book. 

Between books written to sell and people "forgetting" actual expenses, the cost of safety nets (ability to get welfare or employment) and their actual assets it is no wonder that so many people think all they have to do is move aboard a boat to solve their money problems. 

Of course some have but most cannot. Living aboard is still living and that costs money. Just like living on land.


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## SailorGregS

That is a great post, nicely done. Which is exactly why people should try to make their investments grow as well as possible because cruising is for people with deeper pockets than what they originally thought.


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## Omatako

Architeuthis said:


> The best advice on what you need this is: It costs the same as living ashore. If you spent $10G to live last year, then you should be able to get away with $10G. If you spent $50G then you will need about $50G. BUT....


So if you live ashore in a house and have no electricity, no water, no telephone, no mortgage, no cars, no domestic insurance, no house insurance, no security costs, no home maintenance, no rates, then living ashore will cost about the same as living aboard. But what a hell-hole that would be to live in!

Because while you're living in the house, you also own a boat (if you didn't then this discussion is irrelevant) and all those costs are there as well to be added to the house costs. The marina berth, the maintenance, the insurance.

So your pearl of wisdom that living aboard "costs the same as living ashore" leaves me breathless. Absolute nonsense. Anybody who believes that will never go cruising.

The only stuff that stays the same are your day-to-day costs of food. Everything else is less expensive. And all of the above house-related costs are saved. OK, if you're living aboard and carrying on a shore-based life then you'll probably still have to have the cars and a telephone. But if your sailing, that is saved too.


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## SailorGregS

We all know that living aboard doesn't cost anywhere near the cost of living in a home. I was hoping he was being funny, at least that's the way I took it.

It was still a great post.


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## Architeuthis

Omatako said:


> So if you live ashore in a house and have no electricity, no water, no telephone, no mortgage, no cars, no domestic insurance, no house insurance, no security costs, no home maintenance, no rates, then living ashore will cost about the same as living aboard. But what a hell-hole that would be to live in!
> 
> Because while you're living in the house, you also own a boat (if you didn't then this discussion is irrelevant) and all those costs are there as well to be added to the house costs. The marina berth, the maintenance, the insurance.
> 
> So your pearl of wisdom that living aboard "costs the same as living ashore" leaves me breathless. Absolute nonsense. Anybody who believes that will never go cruising.
> 
> The only stuff that stays the same are your day-to-day costs of food. Everything else is less expensive. And all of the above house-related costs are saved. OK, if you're living aboard and carrying on a shore-based life then you'll probably still have to have the cars and a telephone. But if your sailing, that is saved too.


You are very rich so you likely are living cheaper onboard with I'm guessing no car or job (which has expenses for most). I could not afford a nice boat and a house. Actually I didn't have a house but that doesn't matter. You had security costs?....nevermind, that isn't the point. I've lived in that hell hole that costs less than moorage, not so bad, rather not go back mind you, LOL.

Are you living on $10G? I'm thinking not. If you had a life style with a security costs I'm guessing you would admit to doing this for +20G?....maybe you should write a book so poor people can move aboard, you can even make money out of it! (win win)

I said it can be done but there are reasons it is very short term for most people trying and money is often one of them.


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## Omatako

Architeuthis said:


> Are you living on $10G? I'm thinking not. If you had a life style with a security costs I'm guessing you would admit to doing this for +20G?....maybe you should write a book so poor people can move aboard, you can even make money out of it! (win win).


No, I'm living on $50g but if I went cruising then I would live on $10g because all of the other house-bound costs I mentioned will be gone. That's exactly why I'm contesting your post/blog. When you say that a person/family would spend the same living on a boat you're the one who has it wrong, not "the other posters, bloggers and book-writers" as you suggest.

If you want to post info that's supposed to be of help to others on this board, try and do it based on fact and research, not your own opinion. I disagree that your post is a good one - the above says to me that you're just blowing smoke.

Sorry, rant over.


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## sailordave

Hmmmm. Lots of opinions here, just like arses, er, NOSES! 
What I'd like to hear are some actual numbers from actual cruisers and for them to describe their actual standard of living/creature comforts.

I am fortunate that when I retire in a few years I'll have a pension that isn't insignificant. I can go cruising (hopefully w/ an Admiral) (yes, I have one in training!) I should easily be able to live off my pension and not touch any of my investments hopefully giving them time to recover from the recent meltdown.


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## Sequitur

When we head out in August for a few years, it will be in a two-year-old boat that is fully paid for, fully fitted-out and with three years remaining on its warranty. Because of the newness and the warranty, repair and maintenance costs will be low initially, and I'm estimating $5,000/yr until the end of the warranty period. To protect the investment in the boat, offshore insurance will be high, with the current quote being $10,500, based on 1.5% of replacement. We will be keeping our loft in Vancouver's False Creek as a place to fly home to from time-to-time, so we will have strata fees, insurance and taxes on it, currently just under $4,500/yr. So we're already at $20,000 and we haven't yet had a bite to eat.  

However, that $20,000 is to maintain and insure two assets that are currently of equal value. With the long-term outlook for Vancouver real estate, the loft will appreciate at a higher rate than the the boat will depreciate, and over time the total asset value should increase by more than the annual $20,000 sustaining it. So, for all practical purposes, the $20,000 should not be considered as a cruising expense, but rather as an asset maintenance fee. As the boat ages, and its repair and maintenance fees increase, the equity increase in the loft will more than compensate. 

We intend flying home once or twice a year, but with my nearly one million Air Canada points, and Edi's life-time Air Canada pass for two, our expenses for these trips will be limited to taxes, airport fees and local transportation.  

We eat very well at home, concentrating on quality and freshness. We have beef tenderloin six or eight times per month, prawns/scallops another six or eight, we consume vast quantities of fresh vegetables, there's always a large variety of cheeses and we enjoy wine with every dinner. Because we love cooking and we don't use any packaged gimmicky foods, our food and drink costs are reasonable at under $750 per month. I have never seen any reason to change our diet in the boat, and for many years, I have cooked and eaten similarly onboard and ashore. 

We have a 1225 Ah house battery that is maintained by a 500W solar array, a wind generator and if needed, such as when we want to run the washer-dryer, a diesel generator. The 12 volt watermaker will keep our 485 liter tanks topped-up, and the 840 liter diesel tankage will infrequently need replenishment, even fuelling our hot water heater and the Espar hydronic furnace. So the need to pay marina fees will be infrequent, and likely limited to major re-stocking of the larder. I think that $250 per month would more than cover this.

Our remaining expenses will be updated charts and pilots, port and customs fees, agent fees/bribes, local and inland travel and the absolutely necessary miscellaneous. Let's say $500 per month for the lot.

So, there we are; a total monthly cruising budget of $1,500 to live very well and very comfortably. Since we have funds from five separate pensions to sustain us, and we both have healthy nest eggs, it wouldn't matter if the total was double, triple or quadruple this.


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## wind_magic

I'm more the minimalist do-it-yourself type.

I think it all depends on what makes you happy. Some people need to have a certain level of comfort, certain level of lifestyle to fit in, etc, but me, I don't care, I'm just not as choosy as some people I guess. I think a lot of the expense equation is driven by whether you are married or not. I cannot count the times I've heard people say they had to have this boat or that, this contraption or that amenity, etc, because their mate demanded it or s/he wouldn't go cruising. Just one thing like "hot shower" begets a tree of systems and associated costs, for example, and at some point the boat takes on a life of its own and you can lose sight of the original goal which is to go cruising. There are a lot of people wandering around out there in boats they can't afford to lose.

I also think that a lot of what people "need" is just what they've gotten used to. There are a lot of people out there that no matter how much money you give them it would never be enough, they'd always raise their lifestyle to include whatever they thought they could afford. There are a lot of so-called "necessities" out there that are luxuries in most of the world. You need them ? Great, you pay for them, but don't try to tell me I can't be happy without them. 

Edit - example, the newest "necessity" is a cell phone, many people cannot imagine life without a cell phone now, and they'll look at you like you are crazy if you don't have one. But just 15 years ago very few people had cellular telephones, it was considered a luxury, most people just didn't feel they had to be able to call people from anywhere. Now that "everyone has a cell phone", I wonder how much of it is need and how much of it is just .. I don't know, something else. Now that everyone has a cell phone a lot of people are embarrassed not to have one, like not having a cell phone somehow makes you a second class citizen, like it is beneath them to stand next to a pay phone or something. I think that's true of a lot of things, it isn't always the need, it's more like just, ego, or something. Some people just have to have the 35+ foot boat, the colorful spinnaker, big screen television, or whatever, they don't feel comfortable with less because they care too much what other cruisers might think of them. Some people just roll like that.


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## wind_magic

I wanted to add a thought in reference to some of the comments above.

Someone said above (I apologize for not quoting you) that 10k$us was not enough to live on and that your expenses on the boat will be the same as they were on land - whoever it was made it sound like living on 10k$us/year was completely absurd. I think that might be true for a lot of people, but I also think it is important to understand that most people in this world live less than 10k$us a year, usually much less, it isn't like some wild ass notion that people can live on that.

Even here in the United States the mean household income is something like 50k$us/year, and that usually includes 2 incomes. Fully 1 in 5 households in the United States manages on less than 22k$us/year BEFORE TAXES - that's in one of the richest countries on the planet. Go to Ireland and mean household income drops to equiv 35k$us/year, that means 1 in 2 families lives on less than 35k$us/year. Even inside the United States, West Virginia, the mean household income is 33k$us/year. In a country like India the mean household incomes is only like 750$us/year, and yet they still manage to eat like human beings, dress themselves, and live indoors!

I just mention that because I don't agree with the idea that you have to have 30k$us/year coming in or you're going to be eating stray mice and scraping the bottom of the boat with shells you find on the beach. Learn to freaking cook, pressure cook some beans with ham bone in it for G's sake, anchor out once in a while.


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## SailorGregS

Since we are talking about creating some cash for either leaving or the plan to leave, now is the time to consider putting money to work.

The Federal Reserve is in great hands, the economy will bounce back and if you are ballsy enough doing some buying now will create some wealth later. Although many may not believe it, but the opportunity is now. Just be cautious and use common sense. The decisions made today will allow a great standard of living later.


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## hellosailor

wm-
You're missing some of the context of cell phones these days. For many customers, the cell phone is actually cheaper, more powerful, and more flexible than a landline phone and in fact, younger customers often no longer have landline phones at all. Cell phone with unlimited local service is $50/month in many cities. Landline phone? $20-30 and that's without ANY services or features beyond incoming calls. Voicemail, call forwarding, callerID, outgoing calls...all extras on the landline. And when kids shift from high school, to college, to their own first "home", to the next job or marriage or out of town, the one cell phone stays with them.
Who needs landlines? (That's a rhetorical question.)

Some folks say all sailors are rich. Some sailors disagree. Well...from some points of view, it doesn't matter how slim your sailing budget is--it isn't a necessity, and that makes it a luxury, and by definition that makes anyone who sails a rich wastrel ripe for the picking. To some.


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## danielgoldberg

Sequitur said:


> When we head out in August for a few years, it will be in a two-year-old boat that is fully paid for, fully fitted-out and with three years remaining on its warranty. Because of the newness and the warranty, repair and maintenance costs will be low initially, and I'm estimating $5,000/yr until the end of the warranty period.


Careful there. That warranty is 5 years against hull blistering. Most everything that actually might go wrong with your boat will have a one year warranty (engine, genset, electrical system, plumbing, steering, etc.). I'm not suggesting that a newer boat won't have less maintenance costs, but it won't be zero, particularly if you are cruising full time.

I also think some of your numbers might be low, but I don't know for certain. It all depends on what you want to do. True, if you are going to sail harbor to harbor, drop a hook, and spend money on nothing but food and drink that you cook yourself (the food part that is), you probably are right. BUT, if you want to explore inland at all, if you want to eat out every now and again, if you want to socialize in town, if, if, if, then you likely are going to have greater expenses. Again, this is my opinion; I do not proclaim to be an expert in this (though I hope to be soon enough!).

I actually thought Architeuthis' post was pretty good, and I took him seriously. You can argue around the margins for sure, but I think the thrust of his point is that if you are the type of person who goes out to eat twice a week, goes to two movies per week, and stuff like that, it's not particularly realistic to think that you will stop doing everything you like to do just because you now live on a boat. No doubt, many things will change and you will enjoy many things that now will be free (sunsets, swimming, fishing, gamming on the beach), but I think it might be a bit romanticizing to think you will go from the quintessential suburban consumer to a minimalist.

I do hear the criticisim that if you don't maintain a shoreside home cruising should be at least somewhat less expensive. I bet that's probably true for the time you are out, but what about when you come back? I think that's his point too. Getting yourself back into the mainstream, on whatever level you plan to come back, costs money too. If you sell your house to go cruising, cruise for 10 years (just to pick a number), and then come "home," you will need to buy/rent a place to live, and that equity you had in your house will be gone. So getting back ashore is a cost to consider.

I think it certainly is possible to cruise less expensively than it costs to live ashore, but I suspect that in the end, for most people who actually go, that's not the case. Soup to nuts, all in, take two families from the same socio-economic bracket. One steps out of the mainstream in the middle somewhere and takes a 5 or even 10 year cruise, and the other just works and lives "traditionally" straight through till the end. I bet the total amount of money they spend before they die probably does not vary all that much (and the one that did not go cruising probably has more money in the bank at the end, even though the happiness tank might not be nearly as full).

Just my uninformed thoughts on the subject.


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## wind_magic

danielgoldberg said:


> I actually thought Architeuthis' post was pretty good, and I took him seriously. You can argue around the margins for sure, but I think the thrust of his point is that if you are the type of person who goes out to eat twice a week, goes to two movies per week, and stuff like that, it's not particularly realistic to think that you will stop doing everything you like to do just because you now live on a boat. No doubt, many things will change and you will enjoy many things that now will be free (sunsets, swimming, fishing, gamming on the beach), but I think it might be a bit romanticizing to think you will go from the quintessential suburban consumer to a minimalist.


I mostly agree with this.

My limited experience with this, being a person who is still trying to downshift a few gears in lifestyle, is that it just takes time. We are so accustomed to convenience that it does take some effort to cut some of that out and learn to live another way, but I haven't found it to be terribly uncomfortable or anything, so long as it happens one step at a time.

The first time i was out on my boat for an extended period of time it was a huge initial shock for me. Suddenly I wasn't able to just run to the refrigerator for a drink, hop over to the drive-thru for a burger, and all the rest, and I had to start cooking for myself or starve. In the beginning I guess you could say I was starving, sort of, I wasn't cooking enough to eat and I completely crashed, I got really tired, lost my appetite completely, got confused, etc, and it took me a few weeks to actually get back on track. I lost a huge amount of weight, rapidly, but once I finally start getting into the groove it became much easier and I was able to straighten myself out, though I never did cook enough to gain the weight back.

It takes more effort to cut out some of the convenience, that's why they call it convenience, because it is convenient.  But it can be done. Besides, what else are you going to do with your time, put puzzles together for the rest of your life ? You leave work and you are out on a boat with essentially nothing to do all day, you can't take 30 minutes to cook some breakfast, or stitch up a sail that gets ripped ?


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## Valiente

wind_magic said:


> I just mention that because I don't agree with the idea that you have to have 30k$us/year coming in or you're going to be eating stray mice and scraping the bottom of the boat with shells you find on the beach. Learn to freaking cook, pressure cook some beans with ham bone in it for G's sake, anchor out once in a while.


I have to laugh at some of the assumptions I hear at times. Take food, for example: I saw an item on the news about a couple who spent $250/week on groceries who lost their jobs and now have "cut back" (no prepared meals or luxury tidbits). Our household is two adults and a child and our total grocery bill is about $100/week. We don't do what we would do on a boat (powdered milk, more "from scratch" cooking, food prep geared to minimizing refrigeration) and so I think that boat living should be cheaper, particularly if we can snag three or four pounds of fish a week, which I find a reasonable prospect. "Snagging" in this case also means trading a couple of cans of beer with local fishermen.

We do enjoy wine with meals and that will require some rethinking. Fragility of bottles and the simple fact that I drink very little when in charge of a boat means that the 1 litre TetraPaks made sense, but then you have to dispose of them in ways other than chucking a glass bottle over the side (which I consider "habitat enhancement", by the way...the bottle eventually becomes sand again.)

I think the combination of careful food prep, opportunistic purchasing in bulk and less reliance on processed foods (making our own breads, for instance) means we can keep the "ship's food bill" at $5K or less per year, leaving enough for the occasional shoreside treat of a restaurant meal or getting steaks or something.


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## Sequitur

danielgoldberg said:


> Careful there. That warranty is 5 years against hull blistering. Most everything that actually might go wrong with your boat will have a one year warranty (engine, genset, electrical system, plumbing, steering, etc.). I'm not suggesting that a newer boat won't have less maintenance costs, but it won't be zero, particularly if you are cruising full time.


Dan,

I'm sorry for you that the warranty you have is so short and so restricted. I opted to pay for an extended five year warranty, which covers the boat and all of its fitted equipment. 



danielgoldberg said:


> I also think some of your numbers might be low, but I don't know for certain. It all depends on what you want to do. True, if you are going to sail harbor to harbor, drop a hook, and spend money on nothing but food and drink that you cook yourself (the food part that is), you probably are right. BUT, if you want to explore inland at all, if you want to eat out every now and again, if you want to socialize in town, if, if, if, then you likely are going to have greater expenses. Again, this is my opinion; I do not proclaim to be an expert in this (though I hope to be soon enough!).


Our tastes do not run to socializing and drinking in town with all the other tourists; we much prefer to stay well away from the touristed areas and blend into the local scene. During the six years we had the canal boat in France, 2000-06, our monthly expenses rarely hit $750 per month for food, drink, butane, diesel oil, moorage, electricity, travel and entertainment. On that budget we dined very well and we explored extensively along the Saone, the Centre, the Loing, the Loire, the Seine, the Marne, the Doubs, the Burgogne, and so on. We visited most of the cultural and historic sites and we got to know most of the cities, towns and villages along the way. We certainly could have spent much more, but we simply can't stand sitting in bars swapping tales with the tourists.


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## Sequitur

danielgoldberg said:


> ... I'm not suggesting that a newer boat won't have less maintenance costs, but it won't be zero, particularly if you are cruising full time.....


Dan,
I didn't have the costs estimated at zero:



Sequitur said:


> ... Because of the newness and the warranty, repair and maintenance costs will be low initially, and I'm estimating $5,000/yr until the end of the warranty period. .... As the boat ages, and its repair and maintenance fees increase ....


While I think $5,000 per year is reasonable for the next two or three years, I am fully prepared for the repair and maintenance costs to then start moving upwards toward the often-quoted 10% of boat value.


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## Cruisingdad

Not tryig to be argumentative, but as I have always owned new boats (with maybe one exception), I would say that most people do not purchase an extended warranty and pretty much all boats do in fact come in at 12 months with the exception of the hull. 

I have also found that almost everything that is going to break, breaks within the first 90 days or so. After that, it nicely stayed together through the 12 month period (smile).

Also, I find warranties of little use when something breaks 100 miles offshore from nowhere. At best you get the part for free. But are they going to pay for all the related shipping charges? And... can it even be shipped???

I doubt Hunter is going to hop a helicopter to the middle of the Pacific to get you a new charger. As such, isn't that warranty really worth unless you are tied to a marina within a telephone call from your dealer? Let's also not forget that seamanship dictates carrying a nice amount of spares, from alternators to belts, to water pumps, etc. They are not going to supply you with a spare. Thus, you will be out of pocket as much (or should we say more because you paid for a 5 year warranty) as anyone else going offshore/cruising.

Just my thoughts. I really am not arguiing with you. I am simply giving my perspective. And as a LA, our costs were significantly higher than the numbers you mentioned... but I did have a child with us.

Brian


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## danielgoldberg

Sequitur said:


> Dan,
> 
> I'm sorry for you that the warranty you have is so short and so restricted. I opted to pay for an extended five year warranty, which covers the boat and all of its fitted equipment.
> 
> ... we simply can't stand sitting in bars swapping tales with the tourists.


I've not seen an extended warranty like that for boats. Good on ya if you can make that work! Just for kicks, feel like posting the terms of the extended warranty? I'm just shocked to hear that a boat manufacturer would agree to warrant things like batteries, water pumps, lights, engines, windlass, roller furling, etc. for a 5 year period. Most of that stuff is not even built by the manufacturer, so I'm really surprised to hear that Hunter would warrant, for instance, a Jabsco head. Very cool for you if they actually did that.

And as to the second point you quoted, sitting in a bar swapping tales with tourists might be my favorite pasttime.


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## Omatako

danielgoldberg said:


> I think the thrust of his point is that if you are the type of person who goes out to eat twice a week, goes to two movies per week, and stuff like that, it's not particularly realistic to think that you will stop doing everything you like to do just because you now live on a boat. No doubt, many things will change and you will enjoy many things that now will be free (sunsets, swimming, fishing, gamming on the beach), but I think it might be a bit romanticizing to think you will go from the quintessential suburban consumer to a minimalist.


If you're living in the city then you're partly right. I formed my opinion based on the thread topic which is cruising. I know that where I would commonly be cruising, cinemas and fancy restauarants will be thin on the ground. 

That said, the costs that I alluded to which are associated with home ownership are still extensive and the money spent in the city on the entertainment elements you mention is small potatoes compared with the rest.


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## Cruisingdad

danielgoldberg said:


> I've not seen an extended warranty like that for boats. Good on ya if you can make that work! Just for kicks, feel like posting the terms of the extended warranty? I'm just shocked to hear that a boat manufacturer would agree to warrant things like batteries, water pumps, lights, engines, windlass, roller furling, etc. for a 5 year period. Most of that stuff is not even built by the manufacturer, so I'm really surprised to hear that Hunter would warrant, for instance, a Jabsco head. Very cool for you if they actually did that.
> 
> And as to the second point you quoted, sitting in a bar swapping tales with tourists might be my favorite pasttime.


My issue is that I don't care if it is a 5000 year warranty. It is only as good as its ability to be used. Alternators do not go out at the dock... period. You are lucky if they go out in VHF range. Same with water pumps and many other pieces of gear on the boat. That is my hangup.

Brian


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## Sequitur

danielgoldberg said:


> I've not seen an extended warranty like that for boats. Good on ya if you can make that work! Just for kicks, feel like posting the terms of the extended warranty? I'm just shocked to hear that a boat manufacturer would agree to warrant things like batteries, water pumps, lights, engines, windlass, roller furling, etc. for a 5 year period. Most of that stuff is not even built by the manufacturer, so I'm really surprised to hear that Hunter would warrant, for instance, a Jabsco head. Very cool for you if they actually did that.


Dan,
Here is a bit from the Hunter site, so of course, it is biased  


> *The Best Warranty in Sailing*
> 
> Our 5 year Hull structure and blister warranty covers the true cost of repairs and is NOT pro-rated like some warranties. It's also transferable upon resale helping to preserve the value of your investment. Hunter is the ONLY sailboat builder to offer a 5 year extended warranty that covers things like refrigeration, electronics, air conditioning systems and key engine components. You won't find a more comprehensive new boat warranty in the business.


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## SailorGregS

In your quest to attain the wealth that is needed to cruise, has anyone bothered to make a nice 30% profit in the last 5 days on a tip I provided.

Last week it eluded to the fact that MFC would be a nice investment, even if you only took advice for 5 days and parked $100k into it you would have made $30k (less fees). ARC and PGH, are two others that have given 11% more into my accounts. The last 5 days, there's a nice easy $50k. If they move down by 5% they are sold - automatic decision.

The cost of cruising is variable for many reasons, but building liquid wealth does help alleviate the concerns.


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## Sequitur

Cruisingdad said:


> My issue is that I don't care if it is a 5000 year warranty. It is only as good as its ability to be used. Alternators do not go out at the dock... period. You are lucky if they go out in VHF range. Same with water pumps and many other pieces of gear on the boat. That is my hangup.


Brian,
To assist with my response, I offer the following from the Hunter site:



> *Extensive Dealer Network*
> 
> No matter where in the world you decide to purchase and cruise your Hunter sailboat, our extensive dealer network is trained to be responsive to your needs. An exclusive dealer intranet is in place to keep us in constant communication with them. Whether you need a small part sent or a large question answered, we are always online. As we continue to expand both our product line and distribution channels, you can be sure we will be there for you.


And I'll agree with you that things have a habit of going awry in the most inconvenient of places. However, I've heard many examples of Hunter's support, such as having a new Balmar alternator flown to the Galapagos to replace a defective one.


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## Cruisingdad

Parts failures:

This is certainly not meant to be a testimonial to anything and everything that can happen as a LA/cruiser, but here are my lists of failures as I remember them:

Starter
Alternator
Charger (which took the batteries with it)
Head failure (due to my son and a matchbox car)
Water Pump
Bilge Pump(s)
Lights (running light bulb)
Chartplotter (twice)

How many of those things would have failed at the dock?

Starter, maybe the charger, maybe the bilge pump. The rest would be items you better have a backup part or system for.

What failures have you guys seen? What do you carry as spares? And would a warranty even be worth anything?

Brian


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## Cruisingdad

Michael,

Don't get me wrong. I am on Sea Mist IV. I have owned 6 boats altogether, with only one being used. I BUY NEW TOO!!

I am not beating up the warranty. Better to have it then not... but I doubt I would pay any extra for it if you are going to go cruising. That also brings up the concern that since almost everything on the boat ius 12 months, with some items being 24 month warranties, Hunter is carrying the note and eating the rest of those costs. Since they have to make money, they are simply passing that cost to you in one way or another.

When my chartplotter failed, I replaced it the second time. The first time, Catalina ended up sending out a Raytheon (I believe it was Raytheon nd not Raymarine at that time) certified tech. Didn't do me a crappin' bit of good offshore though. You are going to go without until you get to port. Luckily we were coming into Ft. Myers Beach at the time. The alternator went out at sea. My starter hung open and smoked itself on my 400 WELL away from the marina and I ended up pushing myself back in. 

My point in all of this is that the warranty sounds good, but the reality is that if you are cruising, it doesn't add up to much. Especially when you are dealing with island time. And since you have to buy a spare for EVERYTHING anyways, there is NO WAY I would pay extra for it. 

The exception is major system failures - like the hull and engine. Those are very expensive and you flat WILL have to find a major port for reparis. However, the hull is 5 years on every major mfg that I know of and the engine is 24 months IIRC. On another note, I have found the diesels on boats pretty bullet proof. It is the peripherals (starter, alternator, etc) that are the issues.

I know you have truck loads of offshore experience Michael. I am not doubting you. I am simply asking how much weight you REALLY put into that warranty as a cruiser?? I simply don't put much into it. I certainly am not going to sit around for Catalina to fix my tub when I have things to do and places to go.

Thoughts?

Brian


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## danielgoldberg

Cruisingdad said:


> Parts failures:
> 
> This is certainly not meant to be a testimonial to anything and everything that can happen as a LA/cruiser, but here are my lists of failures as I remember them:
> 
> Starter
> Alternator
> Charger (which took the batteries with it)
> Head failure (due to my son and a matchbox car)
> Water Pump
> Bilge Pump(s)
> Lights (running light bulb)
> Chartplotter (twice)
> 
> How many of those things would have failed at the dock?
> 
> Starter, maybe the charger, maybe the bilge pump. The rest would be items you better have a backup part or system for.
> 
> What failures have you guys seen? What do you carry as spares? And would a warranty even be worth anything?
> 
> Brian


Um, well, uh, gee, you know, well, how do you say politely ... you did buy a Catalina after all, so I'm not sure what you expected.


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## danielgoldberg

Sequitur said:


> Dan,
> Here is a bit from the Hunter site, so of course, it is biased


That's great stuff. I didn't realize that.

I hear CD's point loud and clear, but I have to say, if I had that option, I would have taken it (depending on the price I suppose). True, if you're halfway to Bermuda and something breaks you're not getting it fixed until you get there. But once there, I'd much rather have the manufacturer pick up the tab. Presumably that warranty covers labor too, but even if it doesn't and covers parts only (and this goes to the price they want for the extended coverage), that still might be worth it. A new fridge/alternator/electric head, etc. ain't cheap. And that's not to mention that if you're coastal cruising, particularly along the U.S. east coast, that kind of warranty would be of serious value. Good for Hunter; that really is an advancement in customer service/relations that I would like to see all builders follow.


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## Sequitur

danielgoldberg said:


> ... I hear CD's point loud and clear, but I have to say, if I had that option, I would have taken it (depending on the price I suppose). True, if you're halfway to Bermuda and something breaks you're not getting it fixed until you get there. But once there, I'd much rather have the manufacturer pick up the tab. .... And that's not to mention that if you're coastal cruising, particularly along the U.S. east coast, that kind of warranty would be of serious value. Good for Hunter; that really is an advancement in customer service/relations that I would like to see all builders follow.


I also hear CD's point loud and clear, which is exactly why I have laid-in (or will have by the time we leave in August) an extensive array of spares, and why my starboard aft cabin has been fitted with a serious work bench and will be a well-equipped floating repair and maintenance facility.

There are thirty-five Hunter dealers outside of North America, conveniently dispersed across the globe. For instance, in May-June next year we plan on being in Santiago, Chile, where we'll spend time with the Hunter dealer there, addressing any issues and arisings and doing annual maintenance routines, before heading into Patagonia for a six-month exploration. The following year, depending on where we decide to head after exploring down the west coast of the Antarctic Peninsula, we can do our annual haul-out with the Hunter dealer in Montevideo or in Durban.


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## Sequitur

Cruisingdad said:


> Michael,
> ... I am not beating up the warranty. Better to have it then not... but I doubt I would pay any extra for it if you are going to go cruising. That also brings up the concern that since almost everything on the boat ius 12 months, with some items being 24 month warranties, Hunter is carrying the note and eating the rest of those costs. Since they have to make money, they are simply passing that cost to you in one way or another.


Yes, they pass on the cost as the price of the warranty.  I forget how much it was, but I thought it very reasonable for the additional 3 to 4 year coverage beyond the warranties on the individual components.



Cruisingdad said:


> My point in all of this is that the warranty sounds good, but the reality is that if you are cruising, it doesn't add up to much. Especially when you are dealing with island time. And since you have to buy a spare for EVERYTHING anyways, there is NO WAY I would pay extra for it.


As I said up-thread:


> I also hear {your} point loud and clear, which is exactly why I have laid-in (or will have by the time we leave in August) an extensive array of spares, and why my starboard aft cabin has been fitted with a serious work bench and will be a well-equipped floating repair and maintenance facility.





Cruisingdad said:


> ... I am simply asking how much weight you REALLY put into that warranty as a cruiser?? I simply don't put much into it. I certainly am not going to sit around for Catalina to fix my tub when I have things to do and places to go.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Brian


Nor an I going to sit around for _*Catalina*_ to fix my tub when I have things to do and places to go; I'm planning on replacing from my spares or repairing using my workshop, and then continuing on to the next port with a *Hunter* dealer and let the *Hunter* network sort it out.


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## wind_magic

SailorGregS said:


> The cost of cruising is variable for many reasons, but building liquid wealth does help alleviate the concerns.


SailorGregS, you are invited to make your way on over to Off Topic and the Market Crash thread, lots of lively discussion there about trading, the economy, etc, you will be very welcome there.


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## DalesStar

Well first I have to say that Jim Trefethen's book is "his way". I like all the anti-Pardey's views (ie the other side of the coin), it just suggests that there are more than one way to do anything. 
Second, the first 2 pages of Chapter 8 "Life aboard" made me laugh for 10 minutes. That's what sent me on this quest. I'm sure everyone has been in that situation at least one time, but his recount of it was great.
I've been a Thoreau follower since I was in the Marines. Seem a bit ironic to my Capitan that I was reading Civil Disobedience and Walden Pond. I went hitching around the states before the Marines. My friend and I were gone for 4 months. Starting from Seattle, going to Wisc., to LA then back to Seattle, Anyway, when we got back it was like we went through a time warp. Everyone was on a different pace than we were. We weren't into time, or our pace changed. 
Again, anyway, I'm working on restoring a 1974 33' Morgan OI, refit everything. I'll be finishing it up this winter. My wife and I plan to take off and hopefully find that slow pace again. 
I appreciate all of what this forum has to offer and the ability for everyone to share their opinions and experiences. Thank you
Dale


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## TSOJOURNER

Hi, I'm new on here and I have to admit I didn't read every page of this thread but, I'd like to comment on a couple of points.

Security and control. 

These were mentioned several times and I'd just like to say that these are relative terms. Life is just a ball that we have no choice in attending. We choose partners and dance to the music that is playing. If we can't follow the melody we sit it out, and anxiously await the next one, or we jump in and take the chance of looking like a fool. 

We cannot control the winds of life. We can only adjust our sails. Sometimes our destinations change, due to a berage of un-cooperative weather, and we end up in a situation that seems unsecure and out of control. That is, until that melody becomes familiar. 

One thing is for certain; the ball will end. Dance every dance!


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## chadmadsen

As a new sailor, I can say that I appreciate the breadth and width of this post. Both on topic and off. It has been very informative for a rookie standpoint, with boat purchase and other topics. Thank you for a very good/long/poignant thread.


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## trisstan87

I don't know how people live the suburbia life.. I suppose if I were very wealthy I could have a different opinion on it. I just want to get up around 25-30K on the max end for a boat and refitting and another 10-20K in the bank and just go. Set sail, leave for the horizon, stop trying to find life and let life find me.


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## u4ea

trisstan87 said:


> I don't know how people live the suburbia life.. I suppose if I were very wealthy I could have a different opinion on it. I just want to get up around 25-30K on the max end for a boat and refitting and another 10-20K in the bank and just go. Set sail, leave for the horizon, stop trying to find life and let life find me.


A reasonable way to do it. You will have lots of compatriots! As many "out there" have said, your budget is whatever you've got. And there is nothing about leaving the marina for the ocean that requires that you never earn any more money. Its not hard to earn as you go.


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## Captain Steve

*Re: Quote from Sterling Hayden*



longwaterline said:


> Everytime time I see the same old discussion about what it costs I refer to the potential voyager to the following:
> 
> Wanderer
> 
> A Quote From Sterling Hayden's Book, Wanderer
> 
> To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at sea... cruising it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about.
> 
> I've always wanted to sail to the south seas, but I can't afford it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of security. And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know it our lives are gone.
> 
> What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in the material sense, and we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade.
> 
> The years thunder by, The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb is sealed.
> 
> Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life?


Well said. I've got to get that book.


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## mbianka

longwaterline said:


> Hayden marches to the beat of a different drumer and I agree most of us could not or would not live that way.


I too enjoyed Hayden's book and admired his gumption. A few things to consider is he did not sail with a woman accompanying him. Plus he had a much larger boat than many of us will or have. He also had volunteer crew. Plus he had Lawyers and money back on land cleaning up the mess he left behind. He also had offers of movie parts that he could take or reject depending on his fortunes. Taking off and cruising is much easier when one sails alone and sometimes it is much easier when you have an additional crewmate(s) (docking). But, Hayden's life is not one most of us living outside of Hollywood or Silicon Valley could or want to emulate. So I would not use him a role model. Perhaps Joshua Slocum's situation might be a better choice for most people. He did not have as many options and did most of the work on his donated boat Spray himself before he set off around the world.


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## outbound

Slocum was a master of sailing ships. With the advent of steam and death of sail he was out of work. His goal was to kept his family together and continue to sail. He was dirt poor. His “around the world alone” gave rise to a lecture tour whose fees kept his family under a roof and fed for a few years. When that peatter out he went back to sea and died.
A truly amazing man and one of my heroes but again not someone to emulate.


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## capta

Talk about a ghost thread.
I believe an annuity is a real necessity if one plans to spend their retirement years to the end, cruising. It gives one a definite real income every single month until one dies, and is even insured by the holder's state.
A nest egg is a nice idea, but if not cash, it could potentially be used up or misspent.
A percentage of our annuity goes into a separate "emergency" account for emergencies, but untouched until then.


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