# Winter has arrived



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Theyre saying it will get down to 78f tomorrow.
With some wind, thaat means some real clothing.
I sleep best in winter.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

It was 14f, when I landed around 11 pm last night. I slept lousy.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Water in dog's bowl in cockpit was frozen this morning when I moved the boat to her winter slip. Water in a dispenser over the galley did not freeze. It was a lovely cold day. Winterizing will continue over the coming weeks.... and then some winter projects.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Wait for it...

Next one looks to be worse.

Mark


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

You folks are funny. I hauled out before the end of September. Temperatures were already dipping to near zero C back then. 

Winter has long arrived up in Newfoundland. Heck, we’re 1/3rd into it.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I normally don't do the engine or the waters systems until early December... but we are getting a cold snap in the teens and perhaps snow this Tuesday so I will do that on Monday. Hopefully it warms up and we get a calm day so I can remove the sails.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Wintering the house. Leaving for the boat next week. Will miss you guys. Bye,bye 😟😟


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

outbound said:


> Wintering the house. Leaving for the boat next week. Will miss you guys. Bye,bye 😟😟


You'll be missed around here. ;-)


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> Wintering the house. Leaving for the boat next week. Will miss you guys. Bye,bye ??


Have a great cruising season. Hope you're able to report on how the summer treated your boat on the hard down there.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Madness, just madness!

Cold starts about 65 and goes down to 60. After that if you knew it was going to be a regular thing and still stayed there that’s just madness :devil


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

First day of frostbiting yesterday in Boston Harbor!!!! Wind squirrelly, but good enough to get five races off. Temps were moderate, and sun shining. An all around great day.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Winterized the boat on Thursday. Takes twenty minutes since I converted to Electric Propulsion in 2008. Only the water system needs winterizing these days. No more scrunched around the Iron Pig changing oil and dealing with gallons of anti freeze. Jumping on a cruise ship in a month for a quick trip to the Bahamas I'll wave to the Sailnetters heading there from my balcony cabin as we pass by.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

For us the oil, impeller, water systems usually only take an hour or two. It’s the other stuff which takes time.

Sails, cushions (28) , dinghy, grill, extra food, And winter cover is what takes the time. I think you have them still.

Enjoy the cruise ( eating expedition)


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> For us the oil, impeller, water systems usually only take an hour or two. It's the other stuff which takes time.
> 
> Sails, cushions (28) , dinghy, grill, extra food, And winter cover is what takes the time. I think you have them still.
> 
> Enjoy the cruise ( eating expedition)


Right... so do the chores which work with the weather.... like dealing with sails and boat covers on calm days... most of the other winterizing of a boat can be done when it's convenient.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

chef2sail said:


> For us the oil, impeller, water systems usually only take an hour or two. It's the other stuff which takes time.
> 
> Sails, cushions (28) , dinghy, grill, extra food, And winter cover is what takes the time. I think you have them still.
> 
> Enjoy the cruise ( eating expedition)


Have not covered the boat in years. Find it stays cleaner and mildew free. So the water system winterizing is the only priority. Everything else in it's time as Sanders said.

As for the cruise "eating expedition" got my morning and evening swims planed. Plus dawn walks around the deck. Planning to take the stairs as much as possible too. Also got an unlimited drink package as part of the deal. Though I hardly drink alcohol these days even the Mocktail drink prices could add up. Though a Mojito or two does sound tempting. My trips to the Maldives where the Muslim ban on alcohol had me tasting some refreshing sundown drinks even without the rum. Not to mention the benefit of waking up with a clear head in the morning.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Harumph…. takes me a week to haul, block, winterize engine and plumbing, empty boat, cover and seal, for winter.

But I am slow — I rather like it that way .


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

mbianka said:


> Have not covered the boat in years. Find it stays cleaner and mildew free. So the water system winterizing is the only priority. Everything else in it's time as Sanders said.
> 
> As for the cruise "eating expedition" got my morning and evening swims planed. Plus dawn walks around the deck. Planning to take the stairs as much as possible too. Also got an unlimited drink package as part of the deal. Though I hardly drink alcohol these days even the Mocktail drink prices could add up. Though a Mojito or two does sound tempting. My trips to the Maldives where the Muslim ban on alcohol had me tasting some refreshing sundown drinks even without the rum. Not to mention the benefit of waking up with a clear head in the morning.


The key is to ventilate the boat. We don't shrink wrap...that's creates a Petrie dish solarium. We actually can leave the some of the hatches cracked.

The canvas keeps the snow from piling up in the cockpit and potentially clogging/ freezing the scuppers. It keeps water from the freeze / thaw issues in some of the areas.

We are firm users of Kannaberra Gel for over 10 years. Mold doesn't exist on Haleakula


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I did something different this year. I pumped my antifreeze from the faucet backwards through the galley pipes into the head, cockpit shower, and potable water tanks. This ensured the full concentration antifreeze got to the water pressure pump, valves, and other fittings, where it's needed most. You need to take some care because of the check valve at the hot water heater, but I think I've got that covered. (I'm still working on installing a water heater bypass, but didn't have time to finish that yet and had to move ahead without it.) I'll discuss more details later, but my refractometer readings show that I have much better freeze protection this year.


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## SV Siren (Mar 8, 2013)

We are supposed to get 4" of snow today...all sorts of yuck here in Michigan...the high for tomorrow is supposed to be 29F...not much getting done on the boat this week.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I normally don't cover.... do it every 6 years or so. Boat is fine but it can't be ignored. You do have to deal with blocked scupper/hoses. I will put the cockpit tent on which helps a bit with snow.... but winds will defeat that.

I typically go to the boat at least once a week in the off season. to check and to do some projects. I don't believe you can close it up, ignore for 6 months and open it up again without "problems". In the water I have to check and adjust the lines.

I use the periodic visits to remove things like linens and clothes and towels to be laundered... rugs to be cleaned... and some teak items to be vanished at home. And of course I do some project below... in a heated interior (Espar forced air). Forced air heating helps remove/reduce humidity in the interior and that's a good thing. Empty lockers can be thoroughly cleaned and disinfected with a chlorox spray.

All plumbing hoses are disconnected from pumps in the fresh water system. If all strainers are opened and drained... antifreeze pumped through the shower drain system

Drinking water filter removed. Faucet spout strainers removed.

I top up the diesel fuel with jerry cans... but it's usually quite full.

Engine gets new oil and filter. I may take an oil sample for analysis too. Antifreeze is pumped through the engine, seacocks closed.

Boat is only 1/2hr away so frequent trips are possible. A West Marine is 5 minutes from the boat if I need some supplies.

The more you "dis assemble" the longer it takes and the same to get going in the Spring.


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

Sails are off, all lockers open.
I keep a fan on, blowing over a shallow bowl of dollar store Pine Sol. The boat smells better and no mold.
Pine Sol is not marketed for mold reduction but it works.

Mast will be lowered next week and cockpit tented with tarp.

The boat is 25 mins away on Sunday morning, 1 hr during the work week (same distance, more traffic)


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I was out for a day sail today. It was cold. Ice was forming on everything. My deck, my lines, my dry suit, my gloves. But, the water doesn't seem ready to freeze over just yet, hasn't been cold enough for long enough. I was out last year until boxing day and I am hoping for similar this year.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Ulladh said:


> ....I keep a fan on, blowing over a shallow bowl of dollar store Pine Sol. The boat smells better and no mold.
> Pine Sol is not marketed for mold reduction but it works......


That interesting, but not scientific. It could be you have no mold, due to the air circulation, not the Pine Sol. I'm curious what disinfecting properties the evaporated odor of Pine Sol would actually have. Does the bowl fully evaporate over time? I don't think it actually contains pine oil anymore, so the odor must be chemically attained.


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

I will look at the ingredients next time I go to the boat.

My original intent was to improve the boat odor. The mold reduction was a bonus.
I had been using the fan without Pine Sol, the mold inside of cockpit coming did not reduce but also did not increase, with Pine Sol it has reduced.

I am using a dollar store knock-off of Pine-Sol, not the original. One litre lasts about one month topping up the evaporated bowl each week.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

MikeOReilly said:


> Harumph&#8230;. takes me a week to haul, block, winterize engine and plumbing, empty boat, cover and seal, for winter.
> 
> But I am slow - I rather like it that way .


Savor the luxury of time Mike. I still remember working the midnight shift then heading to the boatyard to change the oil and winterize the engine. The day turned to night and the temperature dropped. Meanwhile I was still messing about with cold gallons of antifreeze in the dark boatyard. Clothes were wet with oil. antifreeze and water. Fingers numb and when finally finished it was time to catch a few hours sleep and head back to work. Still shudder that I use to do that during those November nights.


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska

I did not need to go to the boat, I have some at home

1st ingredient is Longleaf Pine oil
2nd ingredient is Alcohol

No indication of percentages but I suspect the Dollar Store version has a lower percentage of pine oil, since it is $1.00/litre and the original product is $3.99/litre.

Just to see what happens at the next bowl fill I will try the original.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I remember the kitchen being cleaned and smelling good 50something 60 years ago when my mother used pinesol.
Maybe when armstrong linoleum first came on the scene


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Ulladh said:


> .....Just to see what happens at the next bowl fill I will try the original.


I'd hold off on that. Your post had me curious, so I looked some things up. First, my recollection above is correct. The original PineSol no longer contains pine oil, so your dollar store version may be superior for the task.

I was also curious about whether pine oil has antimicrobial properties and it does. Tea tree oil is best known for this and the basis of Kanberra gel and other products designed to become airborne and fight mold.

You may be on to something, if you actually get the pine oil into the air.

I'm curious how you keep a fan running. Battery power or plugged in all winter? The latter is forbidden in most marinas (all that I've ever been to).


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Shiva has no oders... no head odors.... What we do smell is diesel exhaust downwind. Engine room has a n engine smell but it stays boxed in with negative pressure from fan drawing cabin air in and exhaust through coaming. You can smell running engine in the cockpit 

Bilge is always dry.... or dried when it does get water in... such as from pulling or inserting speed transducer.

Espar keeps humidity low down below.

Wife sometimes burns scented candles or incense cones.

++++

changed the oil and filter... ran antifreeze through the raw water circuit, winterized head and sinks. Water remains in the tanks.... I will use it to do some deck cleaning... then remove the sails, messenger the halyards and rig a cover.... after the coming snowstorm on a calm day.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

SanderO said:


> Wife sometimes burns scented candles or incense cones.


This brought back memories.

We were living aboard, middle of winter. Boat was shrink wrapped, but smelled okay, wife did still like to burn candles though.

She was a flight attendant at the time, and pregnant, so probably not operating on the best sleep.

Made us scrambled eggs for breakfast. Some how, she inadvertantly placed one of those cardboard egg cartons on top of one of her scented candles. Holy fire, right up to the deck head. She dealt with it pretty well. Before I could react (I was behind salon table playing Assasins Creed, Black Flag), she grabbed the flaming carton, tossed it in the sink and turned on the faucet.

Yipes. :ship-captain:


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I'm preparing to put in a hot water bypass line to make winterization easier. It's very tight down around my hot water heater, but I've started to pull the fitting apart while I wait for the valves to come in. While trying to remove my water inlet from the check valve, I had a WTF moment. What's wrong with this picture?


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Me and the boat are only prepared for the same climate as an avocado tree.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Ulladh said:


> Minnewaska
> 
> I did not need to go to the boat, I have some at home
> 
> ...


Hi Colin, I just discovered that I miscalculated my inventory of Kanberra gel, and I'm totally out of it. I think I might try your dollar store substitute to see how it works. Can you supply the exact name of it, and which of the dollar stores you got it from?

Also, my Nicro vent has bit the dust and is beyond repair. I'll get a genuine replacement in the spring, but it doesn't work under the cover anyway, so for now I've ordered a cheapo solar fan which I hope to place outside my cover for the winter. But if anyone has suggestions about that I'd be open to them too.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

It's funny that the OP started this thread to troll northern sailnetters by complaining about 78° "winter" temperatures, and everyone just ignored that and turned it into a winterization thread!

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Wish it would cool down some. It was 84 today in Marathon cooling down to 75 tomorrow at 7am. I like it best when the locals start breaking out their winter coats.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SchockT said:


> It's funny that the OP started this thread to troll northern sailnetters by complaining about 78° "winter" temperatures, and everyone just ignored that and turned it into a winterization thread!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


Yea, I guess he and Don are trying to tweak us but fail to understand that some of us actually like seeing snow, taking a break from our boats to pursue other interests , and like birds that aren't rats with wings, animals and appreciate the changes in seasons.

It's just a difference between some cruisers whose whole life is wrapped up in the boat and others who are not. No value judgement meant. We all approach sailing from different angles.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

MikeOReilly said:


> You folks are funny. I hauled out before the end of September. Temperatures were already dipping to near zero C back then.
> 
> Winter has long arrived up in Newfoundland. Heck, we're 1/3rd into it.


Newfoundland seasons:
Early winter
Mid winter
Late winter
Construction


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Now THIS is trolling;

Y2nYcrKR]







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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

How about this? Here’s my current view of the world:


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

MikeOReilly said:


> How about this? Here's my current view of the world:


Yeow. Saw the first saw the first flakes of snow here on Long Island today. Glad I pulled the dingy out of the water yesterday when it was in the mid sixties. But, at least all necessary boat chores are done for the winter.

Now my focus turns to the cruise ship I'll be jumping on that leaves from New York in December heading to Florida and the Bahamas. Ship leaves at 3PM from New York and arrives in Port Canaveral Florida at 1PM the next day. That is a fast passage and I'm curious to see what speeds it makes. I'm also hoping it leaves in a snow storm so I'll appreciate the warm waters of the Bahamas even more. :wink


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## oysterman23 (Jul 22, 2011)

yup Long Island got a wet cold taste today...Had the dinghy all scrubbed but not hauled up yet so bundled up and used the halyard to get her up and onto the fore deck till this cold spell passes. Sails ready for early service. Winter sails on board in case global warming redeems Dec or Jan!...Had a great fall season so wont get greedy. Those of you goin south have fun!


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Winter came on fast here. I was out for a day sail on Monday, the river I sail on is frozen solid today. Looks like I am done until we head down to the keys in February. 

This was taken yesterday (Tuesday).


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mbianka said:


> ........Ship leaves at 3PM from New York and arrives in Port Canaveral Florida at 1PM the next day. That is a fast passage and I'm curious to see what speeds it makes.......


You sure of the timing? That would have to be approx 900nm. Even if only 800nm in 22hrs, that's 36 knots. I think they cruise at 20-25 usually and I'd be surprised any could make over 30. I would have guessed, given the harbor exits and entrances as well, that it would be 1pm, two days later.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Personally like shrink wrap. Find several advantages 
Use white everywhere but clear over the solar panels. Then no reason to go to the boat to top up batteries.
Even with a hard freeze on boat stays warm. Tremendous hothouse effect. We do have “door “ with a zipper we save year to year. Even in February need to take off your coat while inside. 
Cut in semicircular vents. Have overlap so rain/snow doesn’t get in. Leave a depth or speedo out. Leave floorboards up. Get enough ventilation. Put tea tree about. No mildew.
Due to tent snow doesn’t rest on house or deck. Can do stuff under the tent. Having no wet no rust.

This year is the first we “summerized ” the boat. Totally new experience. Leave tomorrow to see how it worked. Looking out my window at dusting of snow and a few chunks in ice slush in the pond. Time to leave. 

Don’t understand prior post about time off the boat. Which would you prefer. Winters in the tropics/sub tropics and summers in mid latitudes or the other way around? Summer is the time I want off the boat. Had a farewell brunch yesterday with friends. One couple on sistership are staying in New England. They’re diehard skiers. Other than something like that prefer sandals to boots.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> Personally like shrink wrap. Find several advantages
> Use white everywhere but clear over the solar panels. Then no reason to go to the boat to top up batteries.
> Even with a hard freeze on boat stays warm. Tremendous hothouse effect. We do have "door " with a zipper we save year to year. Even in February need to take off your coat while inside.
> Cut in semicircular vents. Have overlap so rain/snow doesn't get in. Leave a depth or speedo out. Leave floorboards up. Get enough ventilation. Put tea tree about. No mildew.
> ...


Time off the boat is just what it says. We enjoy 4 months of the year to visit museums, travel to other countries, visit with people. Enjoy the fall / winter life.

I liked to think for us....and just for us, this gives us the balance in our life. Different strokes for different folks. Our life doesn't revolve around boating, though it takes a great part of our time. No value judgement what people choose to do with their time. Haleakula sailing over 3000 miles this year. We average between 2500 and that every year, so it's not like we don't have plenty of water time.

It's not about sandals vs boots. That's are very simplistic way of looking at it.

I choose to live in the mid Atlantic because it offers what we like. We wouldn't like sandals all the time or living in 800 square ft. We enjoy our garden, neighbors and community. We are actively involved in volunteer organizations .

I don't think the average boater of SN has the option of an house/ home has and a cruising boat Two days ago I had a total knee replacement and am faced with some months of rehab. As I age I don't want to do that in a boat.

Like I said this is our personal choice and we are very happy with it.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> Personally like shrink wrap. Find several advantages
> Use white everywhere but clear over the solar panels. Then no reason to go to the boat to top up batteries.
> Even with a hard freeze on boat stays warm. Tremendous hothouse effect. We do have "door " with a zipper we save year to year. Even in February need to take off your coat while inside.
> Cut in semicircular vents. Have overlap so rain/snow doesn't get in. Leave a depth or speedo out. Leave floorboards up. Get enough ventilation. Put tea tree about. No mildew.
> ...


How much does it cost to shrink wrap your boat?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Obviously you have people will all sorts of boats who life in various latitudes with varied weather and they have different cultural / leisure interests as well as where and how they live. So there will be all sorts of versions of.... how to live... how to boat and so forth. 

I don't think something like a valuable boat can or should be left alone for 4-6 months at a time... but this is something many sailors do. I do other boat things in the non sailing season... and I also have more free weekends to do "cultural" things.

There are plenty of boats... fishing which work all through the year because the crew cares for them. Winter is not a reason to "put the boat away" or even cover it... if you check up and clear scuppers and such. Shrink wrap does keep the boat warmer but ventilation is an issue.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SanderO said:


> ...I don't think something like a valuable boat can or should be left alone for 4-6 months at a time... but this is something many sailors do. I do other boat things in the non sailing season... and I also have more free weekends to do "cultural" things.
> 
> There are plenty of boats... fishing which work all through the year because the crew cares for them. Winter is not a reason to "put the boat away" or even cover it... if you check up and clear scuppers and such. Shrink wrap does keep the boat warmer but ventilation is an issue.


Ha&#8230; I wish I could check up on my boat every few weeks . Unfortunately I do have to leave it alone for ~6 months each year. In fact, I've been doing this for many years. Most of my boat ownership years have been spent with my vessel hundreds, if not thousands of kilometres away, so I just don't have the option.

This is partly why I've always covered my boats well. Where I haul we usually get real winters (lots of snow, and real cold), so having a good cover is important. Interestingly though, I've never had much of a problem with mildew. Maybe that goes back to the fact that my winters are pretty cold - probably keeps things from growing.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> You sure of the timing? That would have to be approx 900nm. Even if only 800nm in 22hrs, that's 36 knots. I think they cruise at 20-25 usually and I'd be surprised any could make over 30. I would have guessed, given the harbor exits and entrances as well, that it would be 1pm, two days later.


Yes, you are right. There is a day at sea. Somehow I kept skipping over that. That's OK with me since I'm taking the trip to basically get to some warmer latitudes and spend time just staring out to sea. My plan is to try and travel someplace warm at least once a month over the winter until it's time to prep the boat next spring. So far February and March are the only months with nothing scheduled.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Arcb said:


> Winter came on fast here. I was out for a day sail on Monday, the river I sail on is frozen solid today. Looks like I am done until we head down to the keys in February.
> 
> This was taken yesterday (Tuesday).


Wow that was quick.


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

Arcb

I'm a bit surprized that you haven't installed skates on your kayak or something similar.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Ive always thought ice sailing would be cool.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

mikeoreilly said:


> how about this? Here's my current view of the world:


lucky!


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

paulinnanaimo said:


> Arcb
> 
> I'm a bit surprized that you haven't installed skates on your kayak or something similar.


Thats actually a really cool idea. Maybe some old down hill skis...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Where I grew up in Rochester, Minn we did some ice sailing. It was incredibly fast and lost of fun


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

****!!! The northern cold front is coming here. It’s going to go down to 76 :grin


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Spent 35+ years winterizing. Hated it. Not so much the work but wondering if I did it right or miss something. Due to work and family obligations always had winter projects. Having the interior fairly warm made it possible to do that work myself and not need to pay for it. So the shrink wrap cost varied widely depending upon the size of the boat but in every case was a cost savings as I didn’t need to pay the yard for work I could do myself. Some people wet store. Then shrink wrap is pretty much a necessity in colder climates. The stuff is recycled at every yard I’ve used so bad but not that bad on the environment. 
Our season was short (not as short as Mike but still short). So always thought getting the boat in ASAP important. No sense paying for a boat and not using it. 
To really drive you crazy has a PSC34 stored inside one winter. Allowed a huge savings as I worked on restoring her. Truly a pleasure to be able to stand up on deck. To have no wind and good lighting. To be warm. Had a beautiful canvas cover that came with that boat. Never used it but one season. Very heavy. Boat was pitch black inside and cold as could be. Couldn’t work on her with that up. Couldn’t even crawl around on the deck except with great difficulties. 
So still think for many people still working and sailing only in the summer shrink wrap may be a good choice. Believe that’s true regardless of any negativity you have toward me.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Obviously you have people will all sorts of boats who life in various latitudes with varied weather and they have different cultural / leisure interests as well as where and how they live. So there will be all sorts of versions of.... how to live... how to boat and so forth.
> 
> I don't think something like a valuable boat can or should be left alone for 4-6 months at a time... but this is something many sailors do. I do other boat things in the non sailing season... and I also have more free weekends to do "cultural" things.
> 
> There are plenty of boats... fishing which work all through the year because the crew cares for them. Winter is not a reason to "put the boat away" or even cover it... if you check up and clear scuppers and such. Shrink wrap does keep the boat warmer but ventilation is an issue.


Often our opinions are shaped by where we are, how we utilize our boats, what other things pull at us in our daily lives. 
lives. 
I would venture than many SN still work. They / I don't have the time to spend on their boats like you do.

To me A boat is a possession, just like a house or car. Many many summer shore or mountain houses are only used a certain time and left vacant for months at a time. I don't think I agree that there is anything wrong / dangerous with leaving it alone for long periods of time. YouM buy your many posts , I think view Shiva more than just a possession. No judgement just I think your view is different than the majority of boaters to their possessions. Understandable because of your last 35 years history and also it was your house.

To many their boats are used for racing, enjoyment , in a variety of interests which they have, which could also include raising kids and their activities. They are lucky to use them 25 times a year. They don't live on them, they don't cruise them except for weekends and occasional weekly trips.

As long as they use their boats at all, they are members of our group of sailors.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Often our opinions are shaped by where we are, how we utilize our boats, what other things pull at us in our daily lives.
> lives.
> I would venture than many SN still work. They / I don't have the time to spend on their boats like you do.
> 
> ...


Some clarification of some of your post. I only lived on Shiva from the Fall of 1991 thru perhaps 1995. I have worked all my life and only recently has my work become less than almost full time. I work on a PC with some need to visit clients or sites.

For the first 6 years I owned the boat it was moored 100 miles from my apartment and wintered about 25 miles away on the hard.

I had considered selling the boat in 1999 and listed it with a McMichael broker but decided to keep it when wife appeared in my life.

We use the boat since 99 like many weekend cruisers do... taking a long cruise to NE or ME each summer. We consider it our summer home because we will typically spend weekends aboard.

++++

Boats and weather are a bit different from houses and weather in New England. I have clients who winterize their summer (beach) homes...mostly preventing freezing pipes... and return after the snow is gone.

My boat is a possession... but a personalized on and one I go back a more than 3 decades with. I have gotten my money's worth even though I have spent tons of money. It's value is less than the cost and the money put into it. But it still has a good value. Someone could acquire the boat and use it many ways if they wanted... with some necessary upgrades for offshore passages for example. The boat is unique not because I say so but because of the pedigree and the condition. This appeals to some and not to others.

edit

Regardless of the season... we do cultural things including museums, attend performances, road trips and international travel... etc. I don't think this is any different from people who have a weekend house.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Where we live we don't get many long stretches of freezing weather, and the boat lives in the water year round so we don't have to do any drastic winterizing. Most people tarp their boats or put full winter covers on them, mainly to minimize leaks due to the high volumes of rain we get when other parts of the country are getting snow. ( At least we don't have to shovel rain!)

I am contemplating a full boat cover, but that means committing to not using the boat all winter, and I am not sure we want to do that! We have been away on the boat 2 weekends in the last 5 weeks, and it may have been more except the boat has been on the hard for the past 2 weeks getting last years storm damage repaired. (One of the hazards of being in the water all winter!) We have plans to use the boat to go to one of our club's outstations for a New Years Eve party this year. The weather may be cold and wet, but with heat on the boat and a cockpit enclosure the boat is perfectly cozy!

The think we love about where we live are the different seasons. This fall has been glorious with all of the different colours as the leaves turn. I am hoping for snow at New Years because out destination will be spectacular if we get it!

I lived in a subtropical area for a couple of years, and I really missed the seasons.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Double post


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Some clarification of some of your post. I only lived on Shiva from the Fall of 1991 thru perhaps 1995. I have worked all my life and only recently has my work become less than almost full time. I work on a PC with some need to visit clients or sites.
> 
> For the first 6 years I owned the boat it was moored 100 miles from my apartment and wintered about 25 miles away on the hard.
> 
> ...


Since I own a beach house , one for 30 years, very much a personalized passion, I can tell you that your statement about winterizing a boat is more difficult than a house, Is not correct from first hand experience the boat is much easier. But not really important...both are mere processions. Possessions are made to be bought and sold. Many people on here have bought many boats in their sailing experience.

I understand Jeff. I Understand that you had it 30+ years. 
I understand the attachment you have toward her. We all see your passion.
I understand you think it's a "special" boat. No one would tell you otherwise. Everyone thinks their own boat is special in their own mind ( and after all that's all that counts) . When I sold my Islander 28 years ago is was told that too as very few on the east coast.

You certainly will have no hard time selling her to someone looking for that style boat as she has been very well taken care of.

Letting a boat sit for 4 months after proper winterizing doesn't hurt the boat as you implied. Doesn't hurt the owner either. If that's what you do (we do) you are probably part of a large group of sailors who do that. Sailing is only part of you life.

It's funny, we are sad when boating season closes for us. Thankful that it's a long season, March-Nov. our favorite time as always the fall then spring because it's cooler then.

You are lucky you work from home, as that fits into what you like. I think that's becoming more and more popular and some disciplines allow that. I don't think that's the norm though yet. I really wouldn't like a job like that, but that's a personal preference. I enjoy being surrounded daily in turmoil (lol).

Sailing is important for us as it's quality time we spend together. It also is something we share enjoyment in. We love Haleakula. I feel fortunate my wife likes it. Possessions are nice, but they come and go....life and good love doesn't.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

We're getting a little snow today, less than an inch. I want more.

I have a brand new carbon fiber fat bike. I've been riding it to work for a week, but I'm dying to get it out in some real snow!


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Carefully measure for the right sheet metal screws


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> ......
> 
> You are lucky you work from home, as that fits into what you like. I think that's becoming more and more popular and some disciplines allow that. I don't think that's the norm though yet. I really wouldn't like a job like that, but that's a personal preference. I enjoy being surrounded daily in turmoil (lol).
> ...


There are some downsides to working from home... human interaction and chatting at the coffee break, going out to lunch with buddies and all manner of human contact. But you also have to deal with the jerks at work too. I've worked in offices... had employees and I prefer working alone. But it's never alone because I do interact with others in the course of my work. I just don't have to commute and waste that time.

I have a few (losing them as they move or die) who I see for lunch and so on... but I have a lot of alone time. I have the same on the boat as well.... it's just a different environment.

We are moving toward more isolation because of things like ecommerce. You can even do grocery shopping from your mobile device. I like marketing... which I do since wife does 9:5 and have some friends where I shop.

++++

I see unattended boats get into problems mostly from weather.... even in summer like a sail that flogs to shreds. Homes left unattended seem to be almost unaffected by normal winters.


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

Rick
Reply to your post, about 30 posts back, this thread grew quickly.

Correction I gave the ingredients for the original Pine Sol with Long Leaf Pine Oil as 1st ingredient. Pine Glo the Dollar Tree knock-off contains no Pine Oil.

I have both, the original Pine Sol is thicker than Pine Glo. Both are available at Dollar Tree, Pine Sol is $1.00/10.4 oz, Pine Glo is $1.00/40 oz. I suspect dilution of Pine Sol 4:1 would be the same viscosity as Pine Glo.

So this winter I will try December with original Pine Sol undiluted, January with original Pine Sol 4:1 dilution, and Pine Glo in February. Rate of reduction of mold inside cockpit coming is the measure. There are too many variable to draw any reliable conclusion but I am hoping dilute Pine Sol is as effective as Pine Glo.

The fan is on marina power, most of the boats on the hard at my marina have extensions cords to them.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> Wintering the house. Leaving for the boat next week. Will miss you guys. Bye,bye ??


Have a great time drinking Mai 'tis. We will try and hold the fort down while you are gobe?????..


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Ulladh said:


> Rick
> Reply to your post, about 30 posts back, this thread grew quickly.
> 
> Correction I gave the ingredients for the original Pine Sol with Long Leaf Pine Oil as 1st ingredient. Pine Glo the Dollar Tree knock-off contains no Pine Oil.
> ...


Why risk the mold when a product like Kannaberra Gel is a proven entity. I have used for 12 years with astounding results.

Mold is so insidious and dangerous, why experiment


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

Curiosity and I don't like the smell of tee tree oil.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Gotcha

Funny pine sol is a smell I don’t like so I can understand. Let us know how it works out


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Ulladh said:


> Rick
> Reply to your post, about 30 posts back, this thread grew quickly.
> 
> Correction I gave the ingredients for the original Pine Sol with Long Leaf Pine Oil as 1st ingredient. Pine Glo the Dollar Tree knock-off contains no Pine Oil......


That's kind of interesting, because it seems the product you've found effective didn't have the antimicrobial pine oil in it. I'd take a look at the ingredients and determine whether any could be the impact on reducing your mold growth. If it's a chemical agent, I might also want to be sure it is safe on all the surfaces it will touch, such as wiring, hoses and plastic, over time.

Your idea to experiment is good, however, they seem like short periods of time and very different weather circumstances. It doesn't seem like it would prove anything.

Good luck. Can't argue with success, however, you may not specifically realize what is causing the success and it may not be the evaporated cleaner at all.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> That's kind of interesting, because it seems the product you've found effective didn't have the antimicrobial pine oil in it. I'd take a look at the ingredients and determine whether any could be the impact on reducing your mold growth. If it's a chemical agent, I might also want to be sure it is safe on all the surfaces it will touch, such as wiring, hoses and plastic, over time.
> 
> Your idea to experiment is good, however, they seem like short periods of time and very different weather circumstances. It doesn't seem like it would prove anything.
> 
> Good luck. Can't argue with success, however, you may not specifically realize what is causing the success and it may not be the evaporated cleaner at all.


There have been publications about the antimicrobial characteristics of pine oil. If you can tolerate the smell, it's probably effective. Whether genuine pine oil or a synthetic substitute, the ingredients are selected for their antimicrobial properties, and are sold by janitorial houses for applications where disinfecting are important. So it's not a stretch to suggest that making them airborne with a fan would have antimicrobial benefits, whether it's tea leaf oil, pine oil, or a synthetic substitute. I do think it's a bit of a stretch to worry about airborne pine oil touching surfaces through purely airborne transfer.

This looks like some interesting reading on a janitorial website: https://worldwidejanitor.com/library/the-benefits-of-pine-oil/

I'm not crazy about the smell of pine oil, so I'll probably just order a refill of the Kanberra gel which smells much more pleasant to me. Meanwhile, I just found an old tube of Paul Mitchell Tea Tree Styling Gel that a hairdresser friend gave me for Christmas a number of years ago. It has the same aroma as the Kanberra gel. I'm going to squirt some of that in a bowl while I wait for the order to come in.

By the way, there are lots of naturally occurring materials out there with antimicrobial properties. Under my dermatologist's direction I started using coal tar shampoo, which has done wonders to eradicate psoriasis in my scalp that had afflicted me for 20+ years. As of about 10 years ago, Ulladh was formulating his own bottom paint with coal tar (IIRC), though I'm not sure he's still using it now. I'm still impressed by Ulladh's practical knowledge of these things - don't dismiss them out of hand.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

The hillbilly version of the fancy stuff is kitty litter.

Fill some buckets, put them in various places around the boat, and close the hatches.

Open the boat in the spring, and it's dry air like the desert. No mold.

YMMV, but it's worked for us.


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## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Why risk the mold when a product like Kannaberra Gel is a proven entity. I have used for 12 years with astounding results.
> 
> Mold is so insidious and dangerous, why experiment


Chef, how long does it last? There's a 4 oz container over on Amazon for $26 and wondering if it just sits without much air movement over it will it last the winter in a heated environment.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

this arrived in email this morning

https://www.practical-sailor.com/bl...ilor:e41543:2326580a:&st=email&s=p_Blog111419


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> Meanwhile, I just found an old tube of Paul Mitchell Tea Tree Styling Gel that a hairdresser friend gave me for Christmas a number of years ago. It has the same aroma as the Kanberra gel. I'm going to squirt some of that in a bowl while I wait for the order to come in.


I love it!

Knowing the price of Paul Mitchell stuff, that's gotta be one of the most expensive possible ways to keep mold down.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnesail said:


> I love it!
> 
> Knowing the price of Paul Mitchell stuff, that's gotta be one of the most expensive possible ways to keep mold down.


It was free to me, and has sat unused for a couple years, so I might as well use it for something.

BTW, have you seen the price of the Kanberra Gel stuff?


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> It was free to me, and has sat unused for a couple years, so I might as well use it for something.
> 
> BTW, have you seen the price of the Kanberra Gel stuff?


Definitely use it for something! I just thought it was funny.

And you make a valid point. I just looked at Amazon and Paul Mitchell is $14 for 6 oz of gel, whereas Kanberra gel is $30 for 4 oz. Although I'm sure the Paul Mitchell has a small % or kanberra in it.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

lancelot9898 said:


> Chef, how long does it last? There's a 4 oz container over on Amazon for $26 and wondering if it just sits without much air movement over it will it last the winter in a heated environment.


https://www.boatersplus.com/kanberr...MI9_DvmLHq5QIVw56zCh0KfQ6vEAQYAiABEgKeH_D_BwE

I use a 2 oz in my head, a 2 oz in my v and a 4 oz in the salon. That will be sufficient through the winter. I usually need to refill in the the spring and summer. I buy the squeeze pouch. The prices swing wildly and sometimes there's even a 50% of so I each a number of sites. Usually if the boys been closed I am greeted with a nice fresh whiff of it when I pull the hatch boards. It's not a cheap thing to start but not expensive to maintain when you think what you are doing.

ive had mold affect a number of friends on their boats even though it wasn't obvious . Since we started using we have been mold free. There is enough air in the boat so it penetrates areas like under the floor, wet locker etc.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

lancelot9898 said:


> Chef, how long does it last? There's a 4 oz container over on Amazon for $26 and wondering if it just sits without much air movement over it will it last the winter in a heated environment.


I use Kanberra in the shoulder seasons now. I think I may have started the original thread on the product back in the day. In our cold climate, it lasts from Nov to April, but that's because it freezes over the winter. However, when it freezes, the air by definition can't hold much moisture. When it thaws, it starts working again. Perfect timing.

When the boat is warm, it lasts a couple of months, so I'm not sure you'll get a full warm winter out of it.

I stopped refilling during the season for a couple of reasons. First, I believe the boat must stay closed up for it to work. Once you open hatches and the companionway, it just stands to reason you ventilate it out and we come and go frequently, living aboard at least 4 days per week. Second, for the few days we're away from the boat, I've come up with an alternative. I bought a battery operated waterless essential oil diffuser. I buy a few ounces of pure tea tree oil and set it up each time I depart. I go through a couple AA batteries every couple of weeks, but they do make models you can plug in. I just don't trust the relatively cheap thing to be plugged into 110v unattended for long.


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

My Pine-Sol/Pine-Glo experiment is out of curiosity, there are too many variable to draw any reliable conclusions.

The outcome by spring may be very little difference between 4:1 Pine-Sol and straight Pine Glo (4:1 because this represents no price difference/volume)

I suspect straight Pine-Sol will be the winner.

I am also looking forward to being wrong which quite often is when one learns the most.

I used Progressive Epoxy Coal Tar Epoxy with copper flour for several years, starting with a higher concentration of copper and reducing each year to no copper. Slime was minimal over the entire period, barnacle growth from lower Delaware Bay was less with higher copper content.
The yard had a loose half gallon of Total Boat Underdog free, I tried that, very little slime and almost no barnacles.
Underdog is less than 1/2 the price of Coal Tar Epoxy and not as temperature sensitive or unpleasant to work with or to clean up.
This was not so much right or wrong, than easier and cheaper.
I now use Under Dog each year for the past 5 years with good results.

I had uncles who were commercial fishermen in the Irish Sea they used Coal Tar on wood then steel boats. My local water department uses coal tar epoxy to protect below grade steel and concrete pipes, with additional grounding cables on the steel pipes


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## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> I bought a battery operated waterless essential oil diffuser. I buy a few ounces of pure tea tree oil and set it up each time I depart. I go through a couple AA batteries every couple of weeks, but they do make models you can plug in. I just don't trust the relatively cheap thing to be plugged into 110v unattended for long.


How would you compare using the tea tree oil instead of kanberra for keeping mildew under control? When I first saw waterless oil diffuser, I thought it should be in fact waterless, but it seems not to be.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

lancelot9898 said:


> How would you compare using the tea tree oil instead of kanberra for keeping mildew under control? When I first saw waterless oil diffuser, I thought it should be in fact waterless, but it seems not to be.


Kanberra is tea tree oil in a gel that will evaporate. I use pure oil in the diffuser, which is indeed waterless. Best I can tell, they both work. Kanberra is powerless, but once opened you can't shut it off. The diffuser requires power, but can be turned on and off.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

All this discussion of oils and gels and powders to keep mildew down is fascinating, and a real learning experience. I've been covering and leaving my boat all winter (6+ months at a time), and never had any significant mildew problems. 

My covers are always reasonably well ventilated, but I don't do anything special. Probably it's because I haul out where we get real winters, so temperatures remain very cold for much of this time. I guess mildew can't grow in sub-freezing temps.

If I ever go south I'll probably be back here seeking advice on what kind of powder or oil is best. But this seems like another good reason to stay north .


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

Humidity is the primary concern in this region. It gets cold in the winter but not the bone chilling sub-freezing temperatures of further west and north.

I just checked conditions at Philadelphia International Airport, (7ft above MHWL) a few miles up river from Essington where I keep my boat;

7:30 AM, 33F (1C), 61% RH, clear, visibility 10 miles

At Wings Field closer to where I live 20 miles to the north and west of Essington, (282ft above MHWL)

7:30 AM, 26F (-3C), 96% RH, clear, visibility 10 miles


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Ulladh said:


> Humidity is the primary concern in this region. It gets cold in the winter but not the bone chilling sub-freezing temperatures of further west and north.
> 
> I just checked conditions at Philadelphia International Airport, (7ft above MHWL) a few miles up river from Essington where I keep my boat;
> 
> ...


Exactly ,

In our area many like me still leave their boats in the water all winter. Most marina slip contracts cover the whole year and do not require lift out.
Chesapeake is where northern birds winter ( aka Canadian geese) because the estuaries rRely freeze .

The issue is more humidity than biting cold. When in the water or near water not frozen it is definitely a factor we have to contend with. This includes boats on the hard next to the water. Temperatures highs fluctuate in the cold months 
In the 30's to 40, s during the day.

Water vapor inside a shrink wrapped boat or covered boats needs to be managed.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Exactly ,
> 
> Water vapor inside a shrink wrapped boat or covered boats needs to be managed.


Can this be done with some solar or battery powered fans when the boat is shrink wrapped?

leave some hatches open and make a temporary one with a fan drawing air from below and then a fan or two drawing air through the shrink wrap?


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

Ventilation during the summer is absolutely necessary, condensation is likely overnight and early in the morning when inside hull temperature is likely to be at or below dew point. Ventilation reduces condensation on these surfaces.

In the winter interior hull surface remains at or below dew point for most of the day and condensation is likely as the air temperature/RH approaches dew point. Ventilation will work for part of the day but also introduces more moisture which may provide for additional condensation.

Mold loves moist surfaces.

Reducing air changes and introducing chemicals toxic to mold (natural or man made) as a vapor reduces the potential for mold. Increasing ventilation will dilute the concentration of the anti-mold chemicals in the interior ambient air.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I guess it depends on the ambient conditions, but around here air changes are an excellent way to control humidity. In fact I work on a great many indoor swimming pool dehumidification systems that use air changes to control humidity. HRV (Heat Recovery Ventilators) are also used to control humidity. 

On my boat I run a compressorized dehumidifier all winter, and it maintains 50%RH all winter. It works fine in subzero temperatures, mainly because the colder it gets the drier the air to begin with. We have no condensation, and no damp surfaces. It is certainly a better option than relying on toxic chemicals being airborne in the boat!

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

Ventilation works great in late spring, summer and early fall when air temperature is 70's F to 90's F and RH is 80's in the morning and 50's in the afternoon with periods that just hang around the 90's for days.

December, January, February, March the RH is an average in the mid 60's, with mornings in the low 70's and afternoons in the low 50's. 
Ventilation would probably work to reduce humidity inside a boat in the afternoon but not overnight.

The monthly average humidity in Philadelphia throughout the year ranges from 60's to 70's. 

A short distance south in the Chesapeake (a larger body of water) air temperature and humidity are higher. This is why folks in the Delaware Valley and the Chesapeake obsess over mold.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

SchockT said:


> It is certainly a better option than relying on toxic chemicals being airborne in the boat!


I think it's a stretch to refer to airborne tea tree oil or pine oil as toxic chemicals.

I've used a compressor-type dehumidifier in past years, and the instructions say not to run them below 50F. In my personal experience running one in the late fall, I found a huge hunk of ice clogging up (and potentially damaging) the fins and refrigerant connections. I would never run one in the winter around here.

I've also run Peltier dehumidifiers in my smaller boat, with pretty good results, although they are much less energy efficient. They typically run at 12v at pretty high amperage (~6 amp), and I had a power brick connector almost melt once. I stopped using it then.

Due to those concerns, I've used DampRid plastic tubs along with Kanberra Gel in the boat during winter. I'm always concerned about their effectiveness without the air moving, so today I hooked up this solar-powered fan to circulate the air past one of the tubs:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FS6ZBHT

I selected it because it uses USB connectors, so extension cords are readily available to place the panel outside my cover (once I put it on). The solar panel is not waterproof, but I'm hoping that some well-placed Bed-It butyl tape will provide sufficient water resistance.

I also have a couple temperature/humidity recorders that I've placed periodically in the boat to make sure humidity is staying under control:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00T2CEID2

These things are helpful for a bunch of things around the house and boat where you want to diagnose any issues that can be caused by extremes in temperature or humidity. ONe of these sensors was on the boat this week, and confirmed that the temperature went down to 23F Tuesday and Wednesday night with humidity around 65% (before DampRid tubs were put out).


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Just a little weather geek on relative humidity. One should really look at Dew Point, not RH to determine the amount of vaporized moisture in the air. Colder air can not hold as much moisture, so even near 100% RH in very cold temps is pretty dry. This is why ventilation often works, as one brings in outside dry air to replace interior moist air. Interior air become more humid for a variety of reasons. First, our covers and cabins act as a greenhouse, raise the temperature and, therefore, the air's ability to hold moisture. Moisture is introduced inside our boats, via evaporated bilge water and just breathing. If you live aboard, running water, showers, even the by-product of propane combustion. There is even the affect of changing temperatures throughout the days/months that will create air movement between inside and outside environments.

Dew Point temperatures are those where the current amount of moisture in the air would be 100% saturated, and as said earlier, low temperture air holds less moisture. Therefore, a Dew Point of 30F will always have less moisture than a Dew Point of 60F, regardless of it's relative relationship to current air temperature.

As you can see in this chart, 40F air at 100% RH has the same amount of moisture as 85F at 20% RH. That's desert level dry. They both have a Dew Point of 40F.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Just a little weather geek on relative humidity. One should really look at Dew Point, not RH to determine the amount of vaporized moisture in the air. Colder air can not hold as much moisture, so even near 100% RH in very cold temps is pretty dry. This is why ventilation often works, as one brings in outside dry air to replace interior moist air. Interior air become more humid for a variety of reasons. First, our covers and cabins act as a greenhouse, raise the temperature and, therefore, the air's ability to hold moisture. Moisture is introduced inside our boats, via evaporated bilge water and just breathing. If you live aboard, running water, showers, even the by-product of propane combustion. There is even the affect of changing temperatures throughout the days/months that will create air movement between inside and outside environments.
> 
> Dew Point temperatures are those where the current amount of moisture in the air would be 100% saturated, and as said earlier, low temperture air holds less moisture. Therefore, a Dew Point of 30F will always have less moisture than a Dew Point of 60F, regardless of it's relative relationship to current air temperature.
> 
> As you can see in this chart, 40F air at 100% RH has the same amount of moisture as 85F at 20% RH. That's desert level dry. They both have a Dew Point of 40F.


This is a very good post!

Keel stepped masts introduce water to the interior (if they are stepped) during winter storage.

My experience with a deck stepped mast and a dry bilge that ventilation works fine because humid air CAN enter the cabin and when temps drop it will condense! So if the interior has decent (passive or active?) ventilation the humid air can be removed.... to be replaced by dryer air which is what you want.

The bilge in the engine box below the dripless shaft does invariable have a pint or so of water... what the pump can't seem to clear... from a tiny but water working it's way in from cockpit when it rains. This small amount of standing water prevents zero humidity inside. I do dry it out when I visit the boat in the winter. I also run the forced air heater which dries it out as well.

Since the cabin interior is not sealed... ventilation is a good approach.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I find it more useful to reference Relatuve Humidity because that tells you how close to dew point you are relative to the current temperature. Dehumidifiers usually control based on RH because it is more relevant than DP. If you are maintaining 50%RH you can be reasonably confident that as the temperature drops, you will not likely reach 100%RH (ie dewpoint), even without further dehumidification.

The problem with running heat to try to control humidity is that the heat will evaporate the liquid water, which could be a good thing, except that the moisture isn't going anywhere. It is simply converted into vapor and circulated around the boat where it is free to come into contact with colder surfaces such as windows, mast, engine block and bare hull surfaces.Those areas can often be much colder than ambient air temperature, and can drop the air that contacts them below setpoint resulting in condensation. In cases like that you are arguably better off leaving the water in liquid form in the bilge where it will do the least harm.

I used to run a heater on my old boat over the winter, and it kept the main cabin reasonably warm and dry, but I was fighting a constant battle with rust on the engine because it was a big heat sink that was constantly damp from condensation. When I stopped trying to heat the boat over the winter and instead focused on ventilation the problem went away.

Ideally using a combination of heat and ventilation would be a good way to go. Enter HRV (heat recovery ventilator) units. They allow you to exhaust the warm moist air out of the space, and replace it with drier outside air. The intake and exhaust air pass through a heat exchanger where much of the heat is recovered from the exhaust and transferred into the fresh air thus lowering the RH of the fresh air and conserving the heat energy.

Of course systems like this require you do have shore power, so they wouldn't be very helpful for boats that live on the hook or have no access to power. 

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I completely agree that the interior condensation occurs it when warmer moist air comes in contact with surfaces that are below the dew point.

By caring about dew point, especially in the winter, you can know how much moisture is actually in the air to condensate in the first place. In freezing temps, there is virtually none. At close to 0F I believe, there is absolutely none. 

Of course, the issue inside our boats, even in the winter, is they warm up during the day. It not uncommon for interior temps to be above freezing, even when exterior is below. This is how standing bilge water is evaporated into the air and why circulating dry exterior air into the cabin helps.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Damn it was cold this morning!





It was 64 🙀


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

*Dehumidifier on - Windows open or closed?*

Sorry for the newbie question but its my first year (and LAST!) where I need a winter dehumidifier... :crying

Im in London living aboard and last year had no humidity problems as I was in a more sunny spot in the marina, and I think the weather was better. This year more shady and its been raining every day. So I bought a small dehumidifier 40 watts.

I normally have a small window open for ventilation.

But now with a dehumidifier that would be nutz, wouldn't it?

in exactly 12 months I will be staging for the passage to the Caribbean. Cant wait


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Don L said:


> Damn it was cold this morning!
> 
> It was 64 ?


When its that cold, i dont wake up to pee so often.
Very nice


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> *Dehumidifier on - Windows open or closed?*
> 
> Sorry for the newbie question but its my first year (and LAST!) where I need a winter dehumidifier... :crying
> 
> ...


40 watts is a very small dehumidifier. I would wonder if it is even capable of removing the moisture produced by occupants on a live aboard. I would be inclined to rely on ventilation to control humidity.

A mini dehumidifier like yours is probably best suited to leaving on a boat that is sealed up and unoccupied, because it can not remove moisture very quickly.

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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

SchockT said:


> 40 watts is a very small dehumidifier. I would wonder if it is even capable of removing the moisture produced by occupants on a live aboard. I would be inclined to rely on ventilation to control humidity.
> 
> A mini dehumidifier like yours is probably best suited to leaving on a boat that is sealed up and unoccupied, because it can not remove moisture very quickly.


Its making about a cup+ per day.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Its making about a cup+ per day.


The human body produces around 180ml per day at rest, and of course more than that if working. So that is more than half a cup per person. Then you have to factor in moisture from other sources...cooking, cleaning, showering etc.

A mini dehumidifier cant hurt, but it will be hard pressed to do the job on it's own.

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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Maybe put that mini where men dare not to often go..garage area.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

RegisteredUser said:


> Maybe put that mini where men dare not to often go..garage area.


The interior volume of the boat must be less than a garage. And the chicky is in France so there's only one set of lungs on board. And I only drink beer and that's meant to be dehydrating... :crying


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> The interior volume of the boat must be less than a garage. And the chicky is in France so there's only one set of lungs on board. And I only drink beer and that's meant to be dehydrating... :crying


I find drinking beer helps solve most of life's problems ... or maybe it just seems that way .


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

MikeOReilly said:


> I find drinking beer helps solve most of life's problems ... or maybe it just seems that way .


Except for the problem of having to pee too much. That's why I switched to rum!

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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

In past sailed back and forth. This year left boat in Grenada for the summer. Now getting ready to splash on Thursday. Before leaving last spring canvassed every experienced local cruiser I knew about what they do to prevent mildew/mold.
Some run an AC or dehumidifier. Runs into a real expense. Some yards supply them and only allow you using theirs. 
Some use rid damp or equivalent. The liquid produced stains and can ruin finishes so be careful. The hanging bags are safer but more expensive. 
Some just keep dorades open and run a low power DC fan. Be careful boat isn’t turning into the wind. Venting may not be that good. Rain here can be torrential and overcome dorade drainage. 
Some put on what would pass for a winter cover up north and leave dorades open but also crack hatches. Boat stays dry, no UV damage and dust free. Difference in temperature between boat and outside keeps air moving. Of course if cover fails.....big troubles. 
Others use a fungicide aerosol before leaving and again when coming back. Problem is you can’t get on the boat for 6 hours or longer after treatment. Stuff is toxic. 

We wiped down all the interior with weak vinegar solution and a few drops of Dawn (use brand name dawn). Then rid damp placed about. Then tea tree (kanaberra) in enclosed spaces. Then fungicide. Other than stuff in the lazerrette seemed to work. 

Still hard to work. Called one of my daughters. She complained of freezing rain. Couldn’t bring myself to complain about humidity. Doesn’t matter where you are weather conspires to make things difficult.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I had no idea that mould and mildew was such a pervasive problem and required such extensive measures to combat it on boats as it seems in this thread.

"Mildew requires certain factors to develop. Without any one of these, it cannot reproduce and grow. The requirements are

a food source (any organic material)

sufficient ambient moisture (a relative humidity of between 62 and 93 percent)

a reasonable warmth (77 °F (25 °C) to 88 °F (31 °C) is optimal, but some growth can occur anywhere between freezing and 95 °F (35 °C))

Slightly acidic conditions are also preferred.[5] At warmer temperatures, air is able to hold a greater volume of water; as air temperatures drop, so does the ability of air to hold moisture, which then tends to condense on cool surfaces. This can work to bring moisture onto surfaces where mildew is then likely to grow (such as an exterior wall). Preventing the growth of mildew requires a balance between moisture and temperature either in such a way that minimal moisture is available in the air and the air temperature is low enough to inhibit growth (at or below 70 °F (21 °C) without causing condensation to occur, or in such a way that warmer air temperatures, without an actual change in the amount of water vapor in that air, is by its nature "drier" (has a lower relative humidity) than cooler air and will tend to inhibit mildew growth in this way[clarification needed]. Warm temperatures coupled with high relative humidity set the stage for mildew growth.

Air conditioners are one effective tool for removing moisture and heat from otherwise humid warm air. The coils of an air conditioner cause moisture in the air to condense on them, eventually losing this excess moisture through a drain and placing it back into the environment. They can also inhibit mildew growth by lowering indoor temperatures. In order for them to be effective, air conditioners must recirculate the existing indoor air and not be exposed to warm, humid outside air. Some energy efficient air conditioners may cool a room so quickly that they do not have an opportunity to also effectively collect and drain significant ambient water vapor.[5]"


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Are we promoting growth by using vinegar?


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## Tuna Driver (Sep 17, 2011)

TakeFive,

My Nicro also failed, and not the first one. I took the guts out and fitted a cheap USB fan in the bore. This goes to a small solar panel on deck. I ditched the battery part when it was pointed out to me that our local nights are far more moist than the days. Why would I want to circulate wet air at night? The cheap fan is far better constructed than that poor excuse for a motor in the original. It also moves a lot more air. So far so good. It has even dried racing sails in a day or two that were put away hastily.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Our first Nicro lasted 13 years with a couple battery changes, our second has been going strong after 5 years.
Every year I open it up and clean And debris , and oil the spindle with a drop or two. This sits in our head and is perfect for removing moisture after showers,


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Tuna Driver said:


> ...I ditched the battery part when it was pointed out to me that our local nights are far more moist than the days. Why would I want to circulate wet air at night?...


I'd suggest that your read through some of the prior messages. Unless a warm front moves through or some other weather change, night air is not more moist. As the air cools at night its capacity to hold water decreases greatly, so the air's relative humidity goes up. But the actual amount of moisture in the air is unchanged.

As suggested in the prior message, it is helpful to think of humidity in two ways. Dew point of the air gives a good idea of how much moisture is in the air in an absolute sense (since dew point does not change with temperature), and relative humidity tells you how close you are to seeing condensation. Neither one gives a full picture of the moisture content of the air, but both, taken together, give a fuller picture.

For these reasons, drawing in night air is unlikely to increase the humidity. There might be a slight decrease in temperature which increases the relative humidity, but that would probably be overtaken by the beneficial effects of removing air that has internal sources of moisture such as evaporating bilge water and moisture exhaled by the occupants (which is a huge source of moisture).

This looks like interesting reading:

Relative Humidity - Do You Know What it Means for your Screed? - The Screed Scientist®


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> Our first Nicro lasted 13 years with a couple battery changes, our second has been going strong after 5 years.
> Every year I open it up and clean And debris , and oil the spindle with a drop or two. This sits in our head and is perfect for removing moisture after showers,


I visited the boat today and pulled off the non-functioning 4" Nicro vent (now that everything is under the cover). It's about 18 years old, so probably similar vintage to your prior one. I brought it home and disassembled it, and it's beyond repair so will need replacement. I've seen complaints that Marinco's new 4" model (and 3" also) need a hole that's 1/4" larger than Nicro's 4" or 3" predecessors. This is potentially a real headache, since hole saws don't work well on pre-existing holes.

Did you run into this issue when you installed your replacement vent? If so, how did you enlarge the hole? My replacement will have to go into the acrylic salon hatch where the old vent was located, so I'm debating whether some sort of rotating sander/grinder might be used to enlarge the hole by 1/8" all around the circumference. I'm concerned that heat and associated thermal expansion might cause the acrylic to craze or crack.

Once I'm done with the hole size issue, I'm curious how to bed the new flange onto the acrylic hatch. I'd like to avoid a curing sealant and go with Bed-It butyl tape. @Maine Sail, can you let us know whether your butyl tape is compatible with the acrylic used in Lewmar hatches?

Everyone have a peaceful holiday season!


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> I visited the boat today and pulled off the non-functioning 4" Nicro vent (now that everything is under the cover). It's about 18 years old, so probably similar vintage to your prior one. I brought it home and disassembled it, and it's beyond repair so will need replacement. I've seen complaints that Marinco's new 4" model (and 3" also) need a hole that's 1/4" larger than Nicro's 4" or 3" predecessors. This is potentially a real headache, since hole saws don't work well on pre-existing holes.
> 
> Did you run into this issue when you installed your replacement vent? If so, how did you enlarge the hole? My replacement will have to go into the acrylic salon hatch where the old vent was located, so I'm debating whether some sort of rotating sander/grinder might be used to enlarge the hole by 1/8" all around the circumference. I'm concerned that heat and associated thermal expansion might cause the acrylic to craze or crack.
> 
> ...


Thin luan or something similar double side taped on top..and weight it, go below to mark center and drill tiny hole, back on top..drill it.
A helper..would be helpful..but not necessary


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> I visited the boat today and pulled off the non-functioning 4" Nicro vent (now that everything is under the cover). It's about 18 years old, so probably similar vintage to your prior one. I brought it home and disassembled it, and it's beyond repair so will need replacement. I've seen complaints that Marinco's new 4" model (and 3" also) need a hole that's 1/4" larger than Nicro's 4" or 3" predecessors. This is potentially a real headache, since hole saws don't work well on pre-existing holes.
> 
> Did you run into this issue when you installed your replacement vent? If so, how did you enlarge the hole? My replacement will have to go into the acrylic salon hatch where the old vent was located, so I'm debating whether some sort of rotating sander/grinder might be used to enlarge the hole by 1/8" all around the circumference. I'm concerned that heat and associated thermal expansion might cause the acrylic to craze or crack.
> 
> ...


I don't recall having to enlarge the hole. It fit exactly into the old models plates

https://megadepot.com/product/marin...MIgZ3smMfP5gIV3YVaBR2c4wfREAQYBCABEgK7LPD_BwE

I also remember buying mine in a "junk" bin at the Annapolis Boat Show a number of years ago. There were 4 of them and $20 a apiece si I bought 3. Still have 2 spares.

Can't help you with cutting into the lexan. That will be a pain, but hopefully your old plate and new one are identical.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> Once I'm done with the hole size issue, I'm curious how to bed the new flange onto the acrylic hatch. I'd like to avoid a curing sealant and go with Bed-It butyl tape. @Maine Sail, can you let us know whether your butyl tape is compatible with the acrylic used in Lewmar hatches?
> 
> Everyone have a peaceful holiday season!


There are no compatibility issues with Bed-It Tape and cast acrylic..


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

TakeFive said:


> I visited the boat today and pulled off the non-functioning 4" Nicro vent (now that everything is under the cover). It's about 18 years old, so probably similar vintage to your prior one. I brought it home and disassembled it, and it's beyond repair so will need replacement. I've seen complaints that Marinco's new 4" model (and 3" also) need a hole that's 1/4" larger than Nicro's 4" or 3" predecessors. This is potentially a real headache, since hole saws don't work well on pre-existing holes.
> 
> Did you run into this issue when you installed your replacement vent? If so, how did you enlarge the hole? My replacement will have to go into the acrylic salon hatch where the old vent was located, so I'm debating whether some sort of rotating sander/grinder might be used to enlarge the hole by 1/8" all around the circumference. I'm concerned that heat and associated thermal expansion might cause the acrylic to craze or crack.
> 
> O !


Dremel Tool with a 115 High Speed cutter bit should enlarge the hole quickly.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Winter actually HAS arrived for us, at least for the next week or so. Temperatures have dropped close to -10°c. This usually only happens once or twice per year if that. To make it worse, it starts with rain, which turns to slush, which then freezes and gets a layer of snow on top of it! This makes for very treacherous road (and dock) conditions!

The other problem this weather presents for boat owners is that we don't normally have to winterize our boats to the extent that other northern boaters have to. We were using our boat as recently as January 1st, so our water systems are still full of water etc. As a result I have to run our diesel heat on the boat continuously until the weather warms up, just to make sure nothing freezes. This also means I have to go down and brave the icy docks to check the boat every day.

I actually like the cold and snow, but only because of the novelty of it! Things should warm up again by the weekend!










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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Won't say I feel sorry for you SchockT, given that my season ended in late September over in Newfoundland. But it's nice to know you folks over there on the left coast do get a small taste of real winter every once in a while :wink.

I have a grand vision (which is less than a plan, but more than a dream) of us ending up over on the west coast. It a good reminder that it's not always balmy and warm over your way.


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

One sees tourist messages proclaiming that you can ski and sail on the same day on the West Coast. What they don't tell you is that you must dress the same for both activities.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

paulinnanaimo said:


> One sees tourist messages proclaiming that you can ski and sail on the same day on the West Coast. What they don't tell you is that you must dress the same for both activities.


Yes indeed! I used to keep my ski goggles in my sailing bag for winter racing! It is hard to trim sails with driving snow or freezing rain in your eyes! I even remember one time we had to break up the ice with the spinnaker pole to get the boat out of it's slip. I'm too old for that crap now.

The real Vancouver Hat Trick is skiing, sailing, and golfing in one weekend, which is easily done through most of the winter.

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## Tuna Driver (Sep 17, 2011)

TakeFive said:


> I'd suggest that your read through some of the prior messages. Unless a warm front moves through or some other weather change, night air is not more moist. As the air cools at night its capacity to hold water decreases greatly, so the air's relative humidity goes up. But the actual amount of moisture in the air is unchanged.
> 
> As suggested in the prior message, it is helpful to think of humidity in two ways. Dew point of the air gives a good idea of how much moisture is in the air in an absolute sense (since dew point does not change with temperature), and relative humidity tells you how close you are to seeing condensation. Neither one gives a full picture of the moisture content of the air, but both, taken together, give a fuller picture.
> 
> ...


While you are correct that the amount of held moisture is greater in the warm air, when the cold, less moisture holding, air is drawn into the warm air already in the boat from the daytime, it will condense the moisture in the warm air. There is no bilge in our boat and we rarely sleep in it, so the only inherent moisture is from the sails stored in the cabin. Issues are different in a larger vessel used for different purposes.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Forecasts say it will be 69f for a day or 2 next next week.
Thats getting down there
Non tropical delight
Bundle up


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Got a few runs in, late in the day, with 8" of fresh powder and only a handful of of us on the mountain. Fresh tracks until they closed and a balmy 29F.. Cold front moving in tonight..

*Tonight*
Snow showers likely, mainly before 2am. Mostly cloudy, then gradually becoming mostly clear, with *a low around -4. Wind chill values as low as -19. Northwest wind around 15 mph, with gusts as high as 30 mph. *Chance of precipitation is 70%. Total nighttime snow accumulation of less than a half inch possible.

*Friday*
Sunny and cold, with *a high near 7. Wind chill values as low as -24. Northwest wind around 15 mph, with gusts as high as 30 mph.*

*Friday Night*
Mostly clear, with *a low around -18. Wind chill values as low as -30. Northwest wind 5 to 15 mph. *

Skiing is fabulous though!:wink


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Maine Sail said:


> Got a few runs in, late in the day, with 8" of fresh powder and only a handful of of us on the mountain. Fresh tracks until they closed and a balmy 29F.. Cold front moving in tonight..
> 
> *Tonight*
> Snow showers likely, mainly before 2am. Mostly cloudy, then gradually becoming mostly clear, with *a low around -4. Wind chill values as low as -19. Northwest wind around 15 mph, with gusts as high as 30 mph. *Chance of precipitation is 70%. Total nighttime snow accumulation of less than a half inch possible.
> ...


Good thing you don't dilute your PG antifreeze!


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

86 degrees F here in Bonaire. Winds that caused the cancellation of three days of our planed six day sailing charter have subsided to 20 MPH with 23 MPH gusts. Since we are here for three weeks we've been able to make the days up. Enjoying the sailing and snorkeling while it lasts.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

A huge thanks to the canuks for stopping sending their trashy weather way south.
Those fronts are real enthusiasm extractors
You guy are great


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Its actually really nice in South Ottawa right now. Had 17 Celcius yesterday, compared to 12 C I had in south Florida last week. Kids were out all day in shirts.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

First day of spring! Where did the winter go? I still have not started on making my new sail cover for the boat. Good thing I'm in lock down on Long Island because of this Pandemic and don't have any excuses not to start.


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## edward martin (Apr 11, 2020)

I had a good and deep sleep after a long time. I really like it, but maybe it's too cold to make it difficult for us to sail.


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