# In-Mast furling - Vs - Conventional (Lazy Jacks)



## DominickNJ (Jul 17, 2006)

Im looking for pros and cons to both systems.

I guess the in-mast system will be more $$ but is it really worth it?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

When we come into dock after a day of sailing and take the time to flake, tie and cover our main & mizzen, I always glance with envy over at our dockmate with his furling main. He's already got the cocktail flag up.

But then, I hear the stories about offshore crews getting caught in a squall and needing to cut away the main with knives due to jamming. Perhaps the risk is still worth the convenience of a furling main.


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## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

In mast system is easier to operate, but it does add weight topside. In storms you are trying to reduce as much weight topside as possible. As with everything in a boat, its a compromise no matter which way you go. 

The other disadvantage to them is that you cannot have battens with in mast systems. You can however have them with in boom furlers or lazyjack systms.

We dont race, so not having a sail shape that sqeezes every last ounce of speed is not an issue. 

We opted for it after having done our research into every option available, we liked the ease of it, and we have had no problems with it. Heck, we don't even point into the wind to douse our sails!

trueblue -- If we see you at dock sometime, we'll be sure to have a cocktail waiting for you to finish playing with all them lines and sails


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Thanks SoOkay, make mine a double for double the work  . 

In actuality . . . it is not hard work, or difficult. I do enjoy fiddling with all those lines and sails.


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## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

She looks beatuifull, but its hard to tell. I'm guessing she's a ketch, or is she a yawl?


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## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

She looks beatuifull, but its hard to tell. I'm guessing she's a ketch, or is she a yawl?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Thanks, she's a pilothouse ketch, and a motorsailer (gasp!) - the scorn of many sailors here, but we love her.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

They are making vertical batten sails for in-mast furlers now, but the thing with in-mast furling is when reefing. Just like a furling headsail, your point of effort rises, when you want it lower. Though they are more dependable now, it only takes once to destroy a 3k-6k sail. I thought about in-boom furling, but was put off by the price, and one more thing that could go bad. Instead (since I was buying a new main anyway) I went with the Doyle StackPack. Lazy jacks and sail cover are integrated in the system and so far it works quite well.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

PBzeer, Not to hijack this thread, but . . .

We will be making new sail covers at end of season, plus installing lazy jacks on the mizzen - currently only have them on the main. I started looking at integrated sail covers, like your StakPack, but wonder about any negative aspects to this system. Have you found any?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The real problem with in-mast furling, is if the system jams, then you're pretty much screwed, and can't get the sail down or furled. If a in-boom or around boom reefing system fails, you can still do slab reefing. Also, if you have to take the sails down in a in-mast furling system, you have to unfurl the sail before you can do anything else. With slab reefing you can take the sail out of the sail track without much trouble, and then lead the head of the sail below, and pull the rest of the sail out of the boom sail track and into the cabin.


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## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

PBzeer: Do you know of anyone who has vertical battens? When I was having the last set of sails done I opted to not have them as i felt it was new and untested, but I'm feeling a new set of sails coming up next year or so..

sailingdog: What do you do if your furling genoa fails? fixing the inmast main is really not that dissimillar. either way you're out of the cockpit, which was one of the things you were hoping to avoid in the first place.

Dom: I should have been more specific in my original post, I was referring to traditional horizntal battens. is your head spinning from all the options and their implications yet? How u looking on the insurance thing anyway?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*in mast main with battens.*

at Quantum Sails we have been making full length batten in mast furling sails with great success. In fact I just installed one yesterday on an Island Packet 420. There are a number of very important details that the sailmaker needs to be sure of before agreeing to build one of these sails. But you can gain up to 28% more sail area not to mention the ability to have more leech on your main which helps you point.


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## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

Note to self:
Add Quantum to list of sailmakers to check out this winter


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

SoOkay said:


> PBzeer: Do you know of anyone who has vertical battens? When I was having the last set of sails done I opted to not have them as i felt it was new and untested, but I'm feeling a new set of sails coming up next year or so..
> 
> sailingdog: What do you do if your furling genoa fails? fixing the inmast main is really not that dissimillar. either way you're out of the cockpit, which was one of the things you were hoping to avoid in the first place.
> 
> Dom: I should have been more specific in my original post, I was referring to traditional horizntal battens. is your head spinning from all the options and their implications yet? How u looking on the insurance thing anyway?


Generally, the headsail furling units are far simpler to fix, as the headsail is not contained inside the mast, as they are on many main sail furling systems. Also, the height of the boom off the deck makes the mainsail furling system harder to work on than the headsail furling system.

Also, in really heavy weather, I'll have the furling genoa already furled, and use a Gale Sail over it instead.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

This is my second boat with in-mast furling. Have lowered the main in +25 knots and never had a jam. Lose a little on performance but probably made up the loss with a folding prop. While the other boats are messing with lowering their main we are done and headed in. We are very happy with the system. Also we made a small sail cover to go over the piece of sail that hangs out of the mast mainly to keep it clean. It actually looks pretty cool.


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## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

So why woudlnt you do the same with your headsail ? You can get a main with two tracks. Regardless, our furling unit is actually accessible under the boom, so the height is not an issue. 

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to pick a fight, I've read many of your posts and you know what you are talking about, but I think you may mot have seen the best mast furlers, or perhaps havent played enough to get comftable with them. Ours is very easy to douse a sail down with, we've done it in various conditions. Of course, since it is what we are used to I am biased on their side.

To get back to the original post, for a new sailor who will not be out tempting the weather gods unnecessarily there are equally good arguments for the 3 main methods.

1. taditional sails: learn the basics and then get new fancy ways of doing it. less hardware to maintain, more pure sailing experience
2. boom furler: advantages of traditional sails and in mast furling
3. mast furling: easiest to sail with. No heading into the wind issues, simple deployment/dosing.

Everyone could probably make a different point for each one, but in the end its a personal prefference. We can each only give "what works best for us" answers.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I will disagree a bit with SoOkay as I think it is more about money than personal preference. I have a boom furling system (with Quantum fully battened main...great!) and have had traditional and in-mast experiences as well. In boom is the most expensive followed by in-mast, stack-pack with battcars, and traditional slab reefing. 
As a cruiser...I would NEVER have in mast furling on my boat though I love the simplicity and ease it provides for the casual weekend sailor. I love the boom furling for the ease, greater safety (unlimited furling options AND nothing to jam up the mast), and sailing performance it provides...but if I couldn't afford it...I'd head straight for a stack pack. For similar reasons except the furling!


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## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

My respone was in the context of the original question, one by an inexperienced sailor who will not be out cruising, but daysailing.


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## DominickNJ (Jul 17, 2006)

Am I right to assume that a "stack Pack" is a fair mid point between in-mast and conventional?


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

DomonicNJ -- i wanted in mast furling that came with the boat when i got her. First, i am getting older and it was eventually going to be a burden to reef and flake a conventional sail. 
second, i single hand and i can raise, reef and take down the main without leaving the cockpit. big safety issue here. 
the other thing we find is that when we see a blow approaching we immediately reef and wait for the blow and when it passes we can go back quickly to a full sail. we have watched others reef and then just continue to sail with a reefed main as i guess they did not want to hassel with going back to a full main. 
On the downside - we did have one problem of getting it out of the mast when it was pulled in loose. part of the learning process. also, if you plan to race it is not a racing sail so you may not get full boat speed out of it.
but for me, the safety issue while sailing single handed was most important. 
just my thoughts 
chuck and soulmates


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Dom...here's a link to it. Very nice and inexpensive compared to any type of furling main. Much easier to control than lazy jacks. 
http://www.doylesails.com/stackpack.htm


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Rather than battcars, check into the Strong Track system for a full batten main. Consists of a track that slides up the mast, and stainless slides on the sail. Very KISS, and works like a charm.


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## TejasSailer (Mar 21, 2004)

*In the mast jamming*

The title says it all. Last year on a flotilla in the med we had in the mast furling that initially I hated and ended up detesting. No one, not even the staff liked them.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

True Blue! What a PBooty move! lol. For me, just aesthetically, I do not think the stack pack system looks good. But I suppose its easy. 
To anwer Dominiks question, Either system in mast roller or old fashioned halyard can jamb at the worst time. I am more of a traditionalist. I prefer have features like a cunningham, outhaul, two reefs and adjustments for luff. I think the in mast system gives up too much of what makes sailing great for the sake of convenience. Tweaking the sails is what makes sailing so appealing after all.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

A couple of questions please. 
first --TEJAS -- you stated that you hated inmast but gave no specifics -- can you elaborate on your experience --
second -- why can't i cruise long term with inmast main -- if i go single handed it is much safer and i have more options quicker than a conventional main.
just learning -- thanks
chuck and soulmates


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## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

One of the largest reasons people think cruising with in mast furling is a bad option is the weight you are leaving topside. Second to that they mention all the jamming issues, and that if you jam, your sail is out, and you are stuck. I think these two are issues that in a group like this could be debated without resolution for quite a while. 

The weight is something that is relative, a mast from a boat that is 20 or 30 years old will probably weigh more than an equally tall well designed mast today, and the farther back you look, the more they will weigh, untill you're looking at a tree trunk topside as your only viable option. They still sailed. They still circumnavigated. You can also help the weight issue by having sails made from newer materials which hold their shape more, are lighter and stronger; of course they are more expensive.

The second point of jamming needs to be looked at in the context of the technology's relative age. I do believe that the earlier systems jammed much more than the ones available now. How many times did Edisons buld explode on him, till it worked? As the technology progresses, just as with any other, it gets better and better. Our system is less than two years old and is simple to use, easy to dissasemble, and has never jammed. I can reef or douse faster than most other boats I've seen, and that combined with that I can douse regarless of wind direction, gives me an advantage in an unexpected blow. And contrary to most posts, if it were to jam I'd be releasing the cleaton my Halyard and dousing "the old fashioned way". It wouldn't be pretty, or neat, but the sail can come down.

I do not personally know of any cruisers who have gone round with in mast furling, but I also don't know of any that have tried and lost their boat because of it.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I think you'll find that most people who do extentsive cruising try to keep things as simple as possible. The fewer things you have that can break, the fewer spare parts you need to carry.

Personally, if money was not an issue, I'd have in-boom furling, but since money is an issue, I don't.


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## Allen Lofland (Jun 27, 2006)

*Another thought *

We sail an Endeavour 42 Cutter Rig. With a stack pack system by Banks Sails.
The sytem works pretty well and after some adjustment that the Sail Maker failed to do we have her working well.
Point: 
With this sytem, if one heads into the wind and releases the main halyard, the sail is down and in the bag in no less than 10 seconds. Yes I said 10 seconds. It drops like a ton of rocks into the bag and now you can dock, drop anchor or better yet, start the engine and retrieve a MOB.
I like this as now I know my wife can come back and get me after I trip and fall overboard with out waiting for the electric boom or mast furling to work. Just one more point to think about.
I also like the ease that the sail goese UP. While into the wind, I can raise the sail 90% with out a winch, this on a 42 footer with a 61 1/2 foot mast is great. 
Well designed sail slide system with a good stack pack and a little practice and it works well.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One thing about in-mast furling, aside from the weight and jamming considerations. What happens if the thing breaks down. If the sail is reefed, you can't take the sail down. There is far less that can go wrong with a traditional slab-reefing system. 

If the halyard on my conventially rigged, lazy jack/slab reefed mainsail breaks or jams, I can always change over to a spare halyard—of course the halyard could break or jam on a in-mast furling system as well, giving you more possible things that could go wrong. 

On my boat, I can put a reef in about a minute... Once I have the all the lines run back to the cockpit, I won't even have to leave the cockpit to do that. Running the lines back to the cockpit is one of my current projects.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Its interesting. You guys are all thinking convenience over performance. May I suggest Trawlers all the way around?


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## TejasSailer (Mar 21, 2004)

Chuck5499,

You asked for specifics about my dislike for in-mast reefing. I suppose that since there are different systems, I need to mention that the floatilla boat was a Beneteau 361.

Not a complaint, but just out of our experience if you end up getting in-mast furling, there did seem to be a bit a trick in furling and unfurling to avoid jamming. With a traditional mast you would head into the wind. With this in-mast system, heading into the wind was likely to result in a jam, either then or later. Heading a bit off the wind kept a little pressure on the sail and it rolled in and out with fewer wrinkles (as I read this back to my wife, she commented "But not wrinkle free.")

An already mentioned objection is performance. The boat did not point very high or sail very fast. Performance might not be an important consideration for you. It is for me.

Apparently the main reason mentioned in favor of in-mast reefing is safety. However, even after learning the trick mentioned above, the sail frequently jammed, mostly un-furling. The best way to clear the jam was to go on deck, grab the leech near the clew and work the jam out. So much for safety of managing reefing from the cockpit. Clearing a jam aside, actually it was actually easier to un-furl this way than the way the system was designed.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Surfesq said:


> Its interesting. You guys are all thinking convenience over performance. May I suggest Trawlers all the way around?


I don't believe anyone is talking about racing here, or finding that elusive half knot of speed. Perhaps I should suggest a Formula or Scarab for you? Not everyone finds their enjoyment in the constant tweaking of sails. Some just enjoy being out, seeing what's going on, and taking it easy. And though you find that abhorrent, there's nothing wrong with it.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

PB...you are missing the point. I am not suggesting racing. But I know there is more than just marbles rolling in that head of yours....Even assuming your are out on the lake just "seeing what is going on" are you saying you won't adjust the sails if there is a bit of luff making a racket up there? Come on now....tell the truth. I have a hard time believing that you would just sit there and look at it rather than get up and fix it.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

It wasn't that you made the comment about convienence verus performance, it's that you had to throw in the gratitious remark about trawlers. It was unecessary, plain and simple.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

PB? For God's sake quit being such a nag and pointing up things that "bother" you.
There was nothing wrong with the comment. Its an observation that was quite on point. Its the "RVifcation" of sailing. Make everything easy to use...At the end of the day you give up a lot of performance for ease of use. 
I stand for maintaining the purity of the sport. Its only my opinion...you don't have to like accept it or feel threatened by it.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

Tejas -- thanks for the thoughts -- i have a Jeanneau 2001 DS40 that has inmast furling and personally i like it. Did i jam it a couple of times early on and once recently when a newbie took the sail down - but as any old dog i learned - it is the same for performance - will i outrace a boat with a full battened main - nope -- nor do i care for the extra bit to win a race. if i wanted a race boat i would have purchased one. 
i specifically wanted inmast furling as both easy of sailing as i am not getting any younger and for safety as a singlehanded sailor the less i leave the cockpit the better. 
Surfsq -- as you are into purity of the sport i assume that you are still sailing a wooden boat using a sextent and rudder and cloth sails. i applaud you -- by the way does purity of the sport go to the volvo race boats with a canterlever keel? 
chuck and soulmates


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## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

We each like the system we have been using and are comftable with. They all have their good points, and they all have their bad points; wether they are real or percieved.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Main sail handling systems.*

Guys, It been a few days since I last checked in. Boy this thread has gotten out of hand. Some poor guy has asked for info on main handling systems. not an aurgument about who or what is right for who and when.

As a sailmaker this is how I see it.

Conventional mast and sail-good performance, harder to reef, raise and douse. However, fewer "systems" can go wrong.

Boom furling-great as a furling system, great sail performance because you can have full length battens and roach. However, you compramise durability due to the fact that you are limited to what cloth you use to allow the sail to fit into the boom. Also, your shape needs to be flatter and less powerfull to not have the sail get baggy for the system. Remember, in boom furling is still a mechanical furling system that can fail just like any other mechanical system.

In-mast furling- very easy to use, modern systems fail/jam a lot less than older systems. You still have sail constraints. cloth weight is restricted in order to allow the sail to fit into the mast tube. So going with a more expensive, stronger cloth has huge advantages. Traditional in mast furling sails loose a lot of sail area due to not having battens. Modern sailmakers are putting vertical battens in the sails now, allowing for roach and good leech profiles. this actually allows for better pointing as its the main leech that points the boat.

Stackpak/Lazy Jacks-one and the same. the only difference is the stack pack has an intregral main cover. these are good only if the sail has full battens to control the sail when it is lowered. however, you still should feel the need to staighten up the folds after its down. One other disadvantage is windage aloft, which can be significant.

Dutchman-here is a system that has not come up on this thread. I love this thing. less windage aloft and you have complete control of the sail when you let the halyard go. which is all you need to do, release the halyard and down it comes, well folded.

Now with lazy jacks/stackpak and Dutchman these are for conventional mains with standard luff slides and reefing systems.

I hope this helps the guy who started the thread.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I do have an in mast Roller Furling main, (I know, you guys are going to give me crap about it, thats ok) 

We love it, never thought I would. Sailed with a conventional main with hanked on jibs for over twenty years.

One thing I have noticed and is also a great feature, with the conventional main and bolt rope on the foot, I very rarely paid any attention to my outhaul, now I am constantly changing the outhaul and trying to either flatten or give more sail shape.


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## Sonofasonofasailor (Feb 22, 2006)

I saw this system (see photo) at the marina the other day on a giant $1M+ beauty. It's obvious in what it does (sail flakes into the boom, boom is shaped like a trough). Any thoughts on this system? Any idea what the system is commonly referred to? Thanks.


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## jr438234606 (Apr 25, 2006)

What about an externally mounted roller furling main as opposed to in-mast or in-boom? Though not very common where I sail, I have seen an installation or two. The main sail rolls up _behind_ the mast but never _inside _the mast or boom. Seems like this would offer all of the advantages and none of the drawbacks.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

jr438234606 said:


> What about an externally mounted roller furling main as opposed to in-mast or in-boom? Though not very common where I sail, I have seen an installation or two. The main sail rolls up _behind_ the mast but never _inside _the mast or boom. Seems like this would offer all of the advantages and none of the drawbacks.


Not true. If the system jams, you may still have a main sail that you can not drop or furl. The real problem, that is completely unavoidable with any mast-based reefing system is that it puts a lot more weight aloft. * Each pound of weight aloft counteracts a greater amount in the keel, reducing the boat's overall stability and ability to recover from a knock down. *


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Jaime- 

I saw one boat that has that in-boom flaking as a default option. I am trying to find the article I was reading when I saw it...it was a boat review...for one of the pricier boats... Very cool system, but from what I remember it made reefing a bit of a pain.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

The Photo is an in boom the boom will be carbon fiber. All this talk about weight up top, most yachts have roller furling head sails, I wonder if these same arguments were used when this head sail arrangement was first introduced.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Specified In-Boom Furling for New Boat*

Having spent several weeks researching main sail systems, I have finally decided to specify in-boom furling for my new boat. By the time the boat is commissioned, I will be 63, and while still very fit and spry, I want something easy to handle with minimum compromise of performance. One of the major factors in my decision was the difference in mainsail area:

standard full roach - 777 sq ft
in-mast - 569 sq ft
in-mast with vertical battens - 621 sq ft
in-boom 756 sq ft.

Additionally, as has been mentioned up-thread, weight aloft is not significantly affected by the in-boom system.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Sonofasailor....
Saw this system at last years shows on the new Tartans.
Looks like a great idea, traditional main and ease of flaking.

By the way, we got caught in a squall line last weekend. I had the genny rolled up in plenty of time, but got caught with the main still up. 

Our in mast system did not fail us. I was able to roll her up in gusts of up to 40 knots. No problems, she performed flawlessly. The Main was secure in a matter of seconds and we safley rode out the storm.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

SimonV said:


> The Photo is an in boom the boom will be carbon fiber. All this talk about weight up top, most yachts have roller furling head sails, I wonder if these same arguments were used when this head sail arrangement was first introduced.


The amount of weight added aloft on a roller furling headsail is far lower than that of a in-mast or behind-the-mast roller furling mainsail setup. The total mass of the halyard swivel and the foil is relatively small. The masthead roller mount and the roller for the mainsail are considerably heavier. Also, the mainsail is not lowered, so most of its mass is still much higher than it would be if the main was boom furled.


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## SailinJay (Dec 6, 2002)

Here's a second vote for the Dutchman flaking system. I have it on my fully-battened main. It's a very simple system and makes it very easy to lower the sail when you need to do it fast and it drops right down on the boom in neat folds.

When I bought a new boat in 2002, I considered the in-mast furler system but opted for the standard main for performance reasons. I also considered a boom furler, which was an option for my boat, but the cost was way too much for what I considered, at the time, to be relatively new technology. I have since talked to a few owners of boats with boom furlers and they liked it.


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