# Lazy Jacks...yay or nay?



## corny (Jun 17, 2009)

I read an article on Lazy Jacks in the latest Good Old Boat. Seems like a good idea to me...any time my wife or someone else doesn't have to go forward (on Lake Superior, where you have about 10 minutes at best even in summer before hypothermia does you in) seems like a good idea to me.

Our jib is hanked, we've already rigged a downhaul for it. Theoretically, lazy jacks seem to be a good way to get the main down in a fairly orderly and reasonable way so that it's contained above the boom.

Those of you who have (or have had) these, what do you think?


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hello,

My boat has lazy jacks and I like them very much. My next boat will definitely have some way of controlling the main when I lower it.

My previous boat was 28' in length and had a smallish main. I didn't have Lazy Jacks on that one and it wasn't too bad to flake the main without. I would not want to have to lower the main without the lazy jacks on my current 35' boat.

Barry


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## gstraub (Sep 25, 2002)

I've sailed with and without lazy jacks. I like them a lot. It just keeps sailcloth and lines from being everywhere on deck when dropping the main.

Gerhard


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Putting the cover on the main with lazy jacks is a bit more of a pain


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

corny...

We have Lazy Jacks on our 12.5ft long boom. There are two lines on each side; three would be much better and four would be ideal.

The Lazy Jacks are great when lowering the main, especially if you're "in a hurry".

They're a bit of a pain when raising the main; you have to be headed into the wind to make sure the battens don't foul the lines.

And, as Jim mentioned, it takes a bit more work to put the sail cover on.

Paul


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## davewild (Mar 31, 2009)

I have been a racing sailor for many years before "seeing the light" and buying a cruising boat a little while ago. I have never used Lazy Jacks but I imagine that if set up well they would be very helpful. Is there any body out there who has used a "Dutchman" system. It seems like a good idea but I would love to hear from somebody with experience. I think that if it works it would flake the main as it lowers, but does it work? I've seen a video put out by a manufacturer which looks ok, but it is on a model about 8 feet high on land with no wind. What about in the real world?(cold, tired, boat bouncing around, wind from wrong angle,inexperienced crew, as equipment gets older,etc)


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## LittleWingCA (Jul 17, 2008)

I have Lazy Jacks on my boat and use them only when dropping the main. They are helpful if installed correctly. Mine can be raised and lowered and the installation is such that the starboard one always hangs up on the winches mounted on the mast, so someone has to go forward to raise them. This can be fixed if the tops are not mounted on the mast, but on one of the lower struts, typically where deck lights are mounted. This creates a "V" shape which makes funnelling the main onto the boom easier. After I get back to the dock, I can lower the Lazy Jacks so putting on the sail cover is not an issue.


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## montenido (May 14, 2008)

YES!!!!!!
I installed lazy jacks from a company called EZ Jax and they are one of the best things I have spent money on. I solo a lot and these make it so easy. Also, they retract when not in use and so they fit under your sail cover and stay out of sight.

BTW I have no commercial interest in that company, I just love the product.

Do it.

Cheers, Bill


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## capt.stu (Oct 5, 2004)

I have Dutchman system on my Catalina 30 tall rig. While not perfect, it does let you drop sail fast if you need to, and controls the sail on the boom.


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## sigmasailor (Jun 18, 2009)

Mixed feelings. They can be a pain when raising the main and can be handy when sailing shorthanded.

On our Sigma 33 with a loose luff (meaning the sail does not stay attached to the mast when lowering) you couldn't do without them when sailing singlehanded.

I made my own system with some lines and simple clamps so I could pull the lines along mast and boom so they didn't interfere with the main while hoisting it. I simply put them in place just before lowering the main (short trip to the mast required) and stowed them again after I flaked the sail to keep it on the boom for storing under its cover.

I hate the systems you find on most charter boats; no matter what you try the battens always get in the lines of the lazy jacks.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have removed them from two boats as they are an absolute pain in the neck if you care to take care of your sails or if you sail shorthanded. 

On the first point, arguably the single fastest way to kill a sail is to bunch it up every time you drop it. On my boats I have always carefully flaked the sails on the boom, laying the fabric out neatly to avoid crimping. It is nearly imposible to flake the sail neatly with lazy jacks in place so I ended up removing them when it came time to flake the sail. 

But the bigger problem was dealing with raising and lowering the sail with lazy jacks in place when you are short-handed. If I raised the sail with the lazy jacks in place, the battens almost always got hung up on the lazy jacks. 

Of course I could and did move the lazy jacks to the mast before I raised the mainsail, but then I was stuck trying to attach the 6 lines of the lazy jacks to the boom while the sail was up which is actually far more onerous than flaking the sail with the sail on the deck. (especially when one of the lines got away from me and I had to go up in a bosin's chair to retrieve it. 

And frankly the Lazy jacks had to be removed when I was sailing anyway as they distorted the sail shape no matter how much I eased them.

I also found it easier to move the lazy jacks to the mast rather than have a custom mainsail cover, but of course that meant the jacks tended to slat if not tied off. 

If you really feel a compulsion to complicate your life in order to make it incrementally easier, then I would suggest that you consider a Dutchman system which at least does not have to be removed to raise and flake the sail and which actually works pretty well to preserve the sail. 

Jeff


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## nickmerc (Nov 2, 2008)

I have sailed on a few boats with lazy jacks. Two of them are 70ft + schooners. HUGE help there. So, I also put them on my Pearson 30. Also a vast improvement over none. I made my own and installed them for under $100 (including all of the mounting hardware). It took about 4 hours for everything. They are a very simple, retractable system. If you want more info on how to make them, PM me.
________
Glass Pipes


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## doubleeboy (Jul 21, 2008)

We retract our lazy jacks after the sail is down and tied up. They stay that way until shortly before sail comes down on next sailing. No problem putting the sail up. When we are done sailing for the day, we let go of jacks from their retracted position on mast, we go to a port tack briefly to set up jacks nice and tight on starboard side, then do a brief starboard tack to tighten up port side. Dropping the sail including time to adjust lazy jacks takes about 2 minutes. I could spend all day and not get the sail to flake as well as it does in the jacks. No problem putting mainsail cover on with the lazy jacks retracted. Took me a while to figure this out, but sure works well for us. Why people cut slots in their sailcovers is beyond me, just retract the lazyjacks.

michael


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Too me Lazy jacks are just half of the set up. The other half is a stack pack sail cover. With the lazy jacks the sail drops in the sail cover and you just zip it up. Could not be easer!

Doyle Sailmakers: StackPack


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## CLucas (Feb 10, 2007)

I have a Dutchman on our P30 -- on a positive note, it works very well and additionally makes reefing easier. The Dutchman is integrated into the topping lift and the monofiliment lines run through small holes in the main -- the system is always there and ready to go, requiring only that you take in the topping lift before dropping the main or reefing. For the record, I have full battens so I never have an issue of battens getting fouled, etc. as some users will report with other systems.

The Dutchman was installed by the PO of our boat. While I like the convenience, I'm not certain what I'm going to do with my next mainsail (hopefully next spring) as the Dutchman requires some modification to the sail to install the lines. As small as they are, I'm not wild about the idea of putting holes -- no matter how small -- into a sail (seems counterintuitive...). Most people claim there is no effect on performance. Even after the sail is flaked, you should be careful to watch for any abrasions where the monofiliment contacts the sail -- I have several worn areas on my main from points of contact. More info on the Dutchman system is here.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

My preference would be the Stac-Pack system, from Doyle. However I don't believe that it can be retrofitted to an existing NON-Doyle sail.

Next would be Lazy Jacks (actually EZ-Jax®).

I have sailed with the Dtuchman system, and admire the clean neat flaking. However, the monofilament line adds additional windage, and the system looks like a maintenance PITA.


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## bloodhunter (May 5, 2009)

Find that unless the boat is dead into the wind the upper battens get hung up on the lazy jacks. Ideally the system would be designed so it would be easy to pull them back against the mast when the main goes up and then deploy them for taking the main down The system on my boat is not well designed. However, I have to say that the big main on my boat would be much harder to control when taking it down without the lazy jacks.
I'm thinking of putting in a dutchman system when I replace the main . Boat across the dock from me has it and it seems to work very well.


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## Diva27 (Nov 2, 2007)

I installed lazyjacks on my C&C 27 this year, basically copying the Harken system and swaging up my own guide wires. (Note to Harken: I did buy some Harken ball-bearing blocks...) It's not a complete hands-free system, but it's better than what I had. I now get the mainsail cover off before leaving harbor, which means I can hoist without fussing around on deck to remove sail ties You do have to point head to wind (a good idea anyway) but I also have shock cord coming off the spreaders that keeps the jacks apart and allows a pretty clean hoist. When dousing, I still find I have to go on deck and tidy up the flaking, but my spouse/crew doesn't have to try to then attach sail ties while we might be rolling a bit in wake or chop. So a good project worth tackling.
I sailed on a Tartan 31 on the Hudson (Bob Millstein's Pentimento) in May. He had the Doyle zip system and I must say it was pretty slick. I've since seen other sailmakers offer similar setups (Evstrom Sobstad and I think North as well). One of my dock neighbors sewed up their own version.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

have sailed with and without them---i donot race--i will not race---try lowering sail in stormy or pre-stormy conditions without them--ye cannot see thru the mainsail-AND the main will catch air and become uncooperative--btdt--the lazy jacks are THE way to go--i donot have them on my formosa as yet-her boom is almost 20 ft in length--lol--they WILL be installed prior to my setting out cruising---my sail cover is set up for lazy jacks---so i donot HAVE to have the lovely stack pak system--i just want lazy jacks--a good safety measure in heavy weather----go figger!!!!!


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

From a raceboat POV i cant see the jacks as much worse than hoisting the main through the running backs ?

And if you find it a PITA go back to a bolt rope mainsail and have that floping around on deck by yourself


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## GreatWhite (Jan 30, 2007)

Lazy Jacks and a stack pack type of sail cover are IMO great for lowering a sail fast and easy, esp when single handing. As far a raising the sail the batons can get hung up ( it helps to loosen the lazy jacks before raising)… but on our boat this requires going forward anyways (where the halyard is), which defeats the objective of staying out of the weather,, unless this can all be led aft.

Regarding Jeff’s comment about the flaking of the sail properly I think the Stack Pack helps in this regard, our sail seems to flake itself quite nicely inside its open “clam”. Ours is a custom made cover and not a “Stack Pack” or other proprietary system. Chafing inside of a sail cover can wear a sail too so a good fit and not folding the same way every time keep the wear from occuring in one spot.


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

I have the Doyle stac-pack system with lazyjacks on my current boat, had a Dutchman on my previous boat and nothing on the boat before that. None of the systems are perfect, but both the Dutchman and the lazy jacks/Stac-pack were big improvements over nothing. I enjoy shorthand or singlehand sailing, and I always found the single biggest PITA was dropping the main, especially in a strong breeze. Neither the Dutchman nor the Stac-pack make it as easy as it looks on the advertisements, but both work fairly well. The Dutchman works much better on a crisp new sail than an older sail. With both systems I found that the sail does not always just drop down as advertised. With my Dutchman I rigged a downhaul line to a turning block at the mast base, which helped immeasurably when I was single handing (no autopilot, so I did not like to go forward in a breeze). With the Stac-Pack and lazy jacks I set the autopilot and usually do go to the mast base to help it fall smoothly and keep things folding in an orderly manner. I have seen the disadvantages mentioned by others, but don't regard them as overwhelming. I also note that the Stac-Pack does provide some extra windage when the sail is furled, though that is also not the end of the world.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

i am considering the idea of losing the battens--i learned on gaff rig--didnt have them---and i donot race--so i donot mind not having perfect sail shape----makes a lot of singlehanding with a nearly 20 ft boom easier lol...


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## RealityCheck (Jun 2, 2007)

I think for most of us it is a Love Hate relationship. 

I love them when dropping sails short or single handed particularly when higher winds are about which is often in the West Indies.

I hate them when short / single handed raising the sails.

I hate them when at anchorage and attempt to set up sun awnings to cool the cabin.

I hate them when the wind get up at anchorage and they start of vibrate and make noise.

I hate them when I'm getting the boat ready to go on the hard at the end of the season.

I hate them when I'm getting the boat ready to go back in the water at the start of the season.

I hate them when I'm at the mask working on lines/ halyards. They always seem to overlap what I need to get at.

I hate the cost and limited benefits.

After due thought I guess I hate them.... 

But... I'm not going to take them down....... yet/ maybe... It is a love hate thing.


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## docbob5707 (May 1, 2003)

I just completed my set of lazy jacks with my own design the lines stow forward along the boom to the mast and then clip into place. A tug on the lines deploys them from the cockpit so they are only up when I drop the sails. I also have the tides Marine track system for my main. The combinaton of the two makes depoying and furling my fully battened main very easy (compared to before) from the cockpit. Luv it so far.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I will put in my 2 cents: Dutchman is the best.

I have used them all. The Dutchman takes a little adjusting to make it right, but after that, it is a clean sail and easy to put the cover back on. Lazy jacks is my second prefernce.

Of course, since this is the internet and money is never an object, I would buy a inboom furler instead. If I was coastal and not a racer, an inmast (Which I have now). I actually prefer the dutchman to the inmast, believe it or not - but that is another conversation, isn't it?

- CD


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

eherlihy said:


> I have sailed with the Dtuchman system, and admire the clean neat flaking. However, the monofilament line adds additional windage,


Lets not forget the added weight aloft, in addition to extra windage.:laugher


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I usually agree with most of what Jeff H says, but in this case I must say that the laztjacks I made using heavy shock cord have made life easy for us. We retract them to the mast after we get to the dock and flake our sail (with no crimps like Jeff said so as not to ruin it) and have no problem therefore with our sail cover. 

We have never lost them up the mast. They have 2 major triangles and the hook on the boom we place the cord under when setting them in place never lets them loose (we loop it around it).

The are against the mast when raising the main and are a non issue. It sure is easier and safer to just drop the main and neaten things up when we get back to the dock

Dave


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## genieskip (Jan 1, 2008)

I had a Dutchman set up on my Ericson 32 and ended up taking it off. Just didn't like it and it didn't seem to do a very good job of gathering the sail. My current boat, a J40 came with lazyjacks and while I liked them I found putting the sailcover on a bit of a hassle. Earlier this season I sewed up a homemade version of the stack pack and redesigned the lazyjacks (from three to four legs) and now like it very much. I do have to take them forward to raise the sail to keep the battens from fouling, but that's not that hard. Dropping the sail is now a dream. Loosen the halyard and then zip it up. Presto, all done. I prefer the added work to come when raising, when usually fresh and in calmer conditions rather than when dousing, which can come at a difficult time or when tired.


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## jbondy (Mar 28, 2001)

With a StackPack-type sail cover, how are the sailcover "flaps" positioned when sailing? Are they pulled up by the lazyjacks? Or do they flop down around and below the boom? We have lazyjacks that we pull forward around the reefing hooks at the gooseneck before we put on the current sailcover and to keep out of the way when raising the sail. I like the idea of sewing up a homemade version of the stack pack, but am trying to picture how it looks when under sail.

TIA


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## genieskip (Jan 1, 2008)

I keep it pulled up by the lazyjacks. It just sits there, covering the bottom foot + or so of the foot of the main. Not much drive in that part of the sail when going to windward so it doesn't bother me. When running it doesn't make any difference. You lose a bit of the aesthetics of the sail but I'm getting used to it.


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## Diva27 (Nov 2, 2007)

GreatWhite said:


> Lazy Jacks and a stack pack type of sail cover are IMO great for lowering a sail fast and easy, esp when single handing. As far a raising the sail the batons can get hung up ( it helps to loosen the lazy jacks before raising)&#8230; but on our boat this requires going forward anyways (where the halyard is), which defeats the objective of staying out of the weather,, unless this can all be led aft.


 As I mentioned, I installed 2 lengths of shock cord which holds the jacks outboard. They're just tied off to the pennant halyard blocks on my spreaders and have worked just fine in keeping the gap wide enough for hoists. I have to be really out of line from head to wind for a batten to snag when hoisting.


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## GreatWhite (Jan 30, 2007)

Good idea Diva!


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## EO32 (Jan 7, 2008)

I built my own out of small braided line and shock cord.










When the sail is down, the two loops act as sail ties. I've been real happy with this arrangement.


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## EO32 (Jan 7, 2008)

To bad external image links break on this site


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

From what I can see, only two replies were negative, so I'll add one. 

I hate them. The boat had lazy jacks when I bought it and I removed them. They were such a pain, having to go to the mast to move them forward to raise the sail, and then back for lowering, then forward again to put on the sailcover. I mean, it was MORE work than simply lowering and flaking the sail!

Also, if I can eliminate an unnecessary line, then I do it. It's less to get hung up on battens, and other stuff. NOT nearly worth it in my opinion. There are other systems, but the cost/benefit doesn't come close to lowering/flaking, IMHO.


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## ughmo2000 (Feb 12, 2003)

"They're a bit of a pain when raising the main"

I always lower the jack lines on the downwind side when raising the main. Solves the problem of battens getting caught.


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## heinzir (Jul 25, 2000)

*And Now for something Completely Different*

North Sails at one time marketed a system called Lazymate that did away with the drawbacks of lazy jacks and the expense of the Dutchman. It consisted of lines from the leech of the sail to the topping lift. They are attached to rings that ride up the topping lift when the sail is raised. The lines are loose when the sail is up. They tighten and pull the leech aft when the sail is lowered, causing the main to flake itself neatly on the boom.



I emulated this system, using the two reef cringles and two additional grommets in the leech. I use shock cords stretched tight when the sail is down. They go slack as the sail is raised because of the different angles between the sail leech and the topping lift. I have been using this for many years and love it. It is not as effective on the forward third of the sail as it is for the back two-thirds because the lines have to be too long. But it does very effectively keep the sail out of the cockpit.

Try this experiment; it will cost you practically nothing. With your mainsail flaked on the boom, tie a light line or shock cord to the lower reef cringle. Stretch the line or shock cord tight and tie the other end in a loop around the topping lift. The line should be quite tight but free to slide up. Do the same with the second reef cringle, and the third if you have one. Now raise the main and go for a sail. When you drop the main, the aft part will flake itself neatly on the boom. You might have to experiment with line lengths and tension but I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the results.

If the experiment works well for you, you can add a couple of grommets higher up on the leech to extend your control of the sail. You can also replace the loops around the topping lift with rings or shackles.

Try it; you'll like it.


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## mccary (Feb 24, 2002)

I single hand often and have them on my Catalina 27. They are a blessing to save me from going to the cabin top to tie up the main when lowered. They only problem I have is when lowering the sail stops coming down near the spreader. I attached a small nylon line to the head of the sail and it hangs down to the cabin. When lowering I release the halyard and then tug on the line and it comes down all the way. I then flak the sail when back at the slip when the dangers are minimal. The Lazy Jacks allow me to have the sail ready to hoist when I leave the slip and keep it out of my way after lowering.


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## wookie (Mar 16, 2008)

The Hardin I have bought has the Dutchman system although i have not had the sails up yet as the mast are down being overhauled the Surveyor said it worked well, the rigger who is doing the work on the masts, said he had it on his old boat worked well but didnt like the thought of holes in the main sail


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

*My vote is*

Nay for Lazy Jack
Yay for EZ Jax

I guess I was feeling lazy (or lack of time? and pardont the pun) and bought my EZ Jax, and have been pleased with them. Storing them so you don't have the batten problem is a real plus IMO and you don't have to do any mods to your sail cover. I think they're less $ than Lazy Jacks too?

If I could have spent more $$$ I would have opted for a Stack/Mack Pack type set up. But I still don't like the way it looks when the sail is bent.

FWIW, I sailed on my Aunt & Uncle's Bristol 35.5 for several years, they had the Dutchman, they hated it, I didn't care much...I was just enjoying the rides. When it was time to replace the deteriorated lines they replaced with Lazy Jacks.

I also try to flake the sail differently each time so not to cause to much damage to the sail, but the convenience is simply worth it IMO.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

jbondy said:


> With a StackPack-type sail cover, how are the sailcover "flaps" positioned when sailing? Are they pulled up by the lazyjacks? Or do they flop down around and below the boom? ... I like the idea of sewing up a homemade version of the stack pack, but am trying to picture how it looks when under sail.


The Stack-Pac has the sail cover split itnto two peices that are joined by a zipper when you cover the sail. One peice has a cover for the zipper that is held in place with velcro. The two peices of the sail cover also have two small, lengths of sail cloth, cut to a specific shape for the sail, that attach to the inside of the cover near where the zipper is attached. The other side of these small peices of sailcloth are sewn to the sail. When the sail is lowered, these two peices of sail cloth wrap around the sail, and are what the sail is actually stored in. When you raise the sail, these two peices of sailcloth are pulled taught, and pull the sailcover taught alongside the sail.

When I first saw the system, it reminded me of those honeycomb shades that are used on windows.

I hope that this helps.... It may be easier to look at the description on Doyle's website.

- Ed


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Here is the PDF manual for the StackPack Installation

Interesting... StackPack is supported on non-Doyle sails too!


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Actually - concept is great and if just cruising - works. Otherwise, a pain to manage - had them on my Cat 27, fine for cruising but they are not pain free. Easier to flake the sails as they come down if you have something more than dacron.


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

Corny,

Lots of answers here. Mostly positive I see. Here is me.

I went for the Mack Pack. It is another brand. I chose it because.
I did not want my sail altered or added to.
No batten fouling - The lazy jacks are able to be loosened so when raising the sail just pick a tack, free the line opposite, pull to loosen, raise the main and re-cleat the jack line to the boom.
Strong components.
The zipper closure is sweet.

Really cool.

I throw the halyard forward so it will not jam. When I let go there is a whosh and a clatter as the slides come down oh-so-fast.

Freakin' amazing. Worth every penny - but then I thought I could afford it.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Had lazy jacks on my Alberg, had a dutchman system on the Cal, and now have the Doyle Stackpack. LOVE IT!
Release the halyard and into the cover she goes, pull the zip, and done.
All from the cockpit.

ps: I have a full battened main with a tides sail track and ball bearing batt cars.


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## M275sailer (Aug 29, 2008)

Good idea hienz, I am going to try to rig something useing the topping lift. There is always something to be said for a K.I.S.S. system.


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## JohnChristopherBalch (Jan 7, 2012)

Did you make or keep a diagram of your system? I know your post is 3 years old, but hey, I'll take a shot.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

added weight aloft????? bunk. is so little weight to rope in the making of lazy jax-- that excuse is for the lazy ones who dont see the use for them. 
when sailing a heavy cruising boat, there is no reason to worry about the alleged weight of a couplafew lines and 2 rings for the home made jax-- and the prefab ones are so light as to be ridiculous on my formosa. 
the safety factor of having and using lazy jax is an advantage that far outweighs any alleged weight problem. could be a problem for a 22 ft or under 30 ft boat--- but the safety feature/factor when cruising a heavy cruiser far outweighs any alleged weight aloft problem that might occur. the rope and rings weigh, what-- under a kilogram???? roflmao...weight problem... how about dousing a main sail on a 20 ft boom... in wind.... visibility is impaired sans lazy jax. 
as for the canvas "problem"--- there are ways to make canvas covers conform to the addition of lazy jax, but if one is too cheap to spend a few extra dollars in the creation of a new sail cover, then i can not say anything about the problems one may incur upon ones own self. ditto with shade tarpage-- make them around the lazy jax. ANY canvas man worth anything knows hopw to make covers to accommodate them.


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