# One Design vs PHRF: Arms Race?



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

We have been considering getting a small sleep aboard keelboat in addition to our trailer sailer. It probably won't be for this season because our dance card is already full but I have been reviewing the local one design fleets wondering if that would be a good way to go or if we would be better off with a more generalist PHRF boat.

The boat would not be used for "Cruising", just week ends and week night racing, we prefer our trailer sailer for exploring, for a bunch of reasons, not least of which is our local lake (10 min from work) is land locked between two hydro dams and only 30 miles long.

I have been reviewing our local one design fleets and they include; C&C 27, J24, Kirby 25, Tanzer 22, Shark, Martin 16, Fireball, Albacore, 505 and Laser. So there is no shortage of choice. So if I forget about the dinghies, there are still some pretty affordable keelboat options, namely the Shark and Tanzer 22, either of which can be had for $500-1000 around here.

The question is, even with these little boats, how big of an arms race is it, assuming you dont want to finish last every time? Do the cost of upgrades and sails get goofy? Is it easier just to do PHRF? Not looking for hard facts, just folks general observations/feelings on small one design keelboat racing.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

You actually want to get into the beer can racing crowd? I generally find them miserable, but they can be fun with the right group.

The advantage of one-design is probably the liquidity of the boat. If there are well established local race committees, it's probably easier to sell down the road. The downside is that every time you lose, you'll blame the sails, your vessel weight, bottom cleaning and everything else, but the crew. You'll never feel like the boat is at it's best. 

The trick with PHRF is to identify a vessel that actually outsails it's rating. That's often the case either up or down wind, but there are some known to be sandbagged overall. The problem is, everyone you race against will know it and make you buy the beer for cheating. 

It's a no win choice.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

In club racing generally, as in every sport, victory doesn't necessarily go to the boat with the best sails and equipment. It goes to the person who makes the most of the sails and equipment that he has. On any given day, most of the boats that are racing casually are handicapped by lesser equipment or crew, or an imperfectly prepped bottom. The challenge is to figure out how to beat the competition around the course despite your particular shortcomings. If you can't beat them with superior sails and equipment, then you have to beat them with better strategy and tactics, better sail trim, finding better wind, or smarter boat handling. At the start of every race I ask myself, "How can I beat these guys despite my limitations today?" Sometimes you'll find the answer and sometimes you won't. You can't ordinarily expect to win consistently with lesser equipment in a competitive fleet, but when you outsail those limiting factors, those races will be your most memorable and satisfying, even if you didn't finish first. It's painful to lose when you should have won, and gratifying to beat boats that you shouldn't have. That's a powerful motivation in sports.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I would say it depends on the racing scene in your area. Here on Long Island Sound, one design racing is pretty limited and the fleets are small. With PHRF racing here, there are more options. I raced PHRF at the club level for over 20 years. PHRF has its limitations, especially in trying to handicap boats with widely varying ratings and sizes. If you go that route, look at the boats that do well in your area. You can probably identify several models that are worth considering. And if you go with something like a J24 or C&C27, you can race both one design and PHRF.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

You said you want to be able to sleep aboard. I think the Tanzer 22 is the clear winner in that respect - Sharks are _really_ narrow and the others don't even start. Should find lots of 1-design fleets in ON.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I like the idea of chosing something good for both. My understanding is the local PHRF fleet is split into spinnaker or jib and main and then further into 3 divisions based on rating. Tanzer 22s make up more than half the fleet for jib and main middle division. That is a nice place to be because my wife and I could sail the boat, no need for a 3rd crew. They also conveniently have the biggest local one design fleet. And as Zedboy points out, they are a heck of a lot more comfortable than a Shark. 

The J24/Kirby 25 would also be fun for a bit more speed, I am just not sure I need that much boat/expense. 

This is still very hypothetical at this point as I plan to do at least one more EC, but when I stop doing that, I will need something else to do, and its never too early to start shopping for the next boat


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Also, I can't see the T22 fleets becoming an arms race. That's not why you buy a T22 - there are faster rides if you're planning to drop big $$ on laminate sails etc etc.

(never encountered T22 in one-design setting though, so I'm just guessing - the ones near us all raced PHRF and did quite well)


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

If you want to race, buy a boat from a racer, that is equipped and ready to race. The cost of converting a cruising boat to a racer is way more than making a racing boat comfortable to do some overnight cruising. I don't know how serious the racing is where you live if there is a spinnaker division, you might spend $4000 just to rig your boat and buy a spinnaker. You might spend a few $1000 more for a competitive boat than a boat rigged to cruise but that boat might come with $20,000 worth of sails. I love racing but i love racing OPB (other peoples boats). Staying competitive is expensive.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

^^^Our lake does have spinnaker and non spinnaker keel boat fleets, with 3 divisions each based on rating. It also has the one designs listed and Portsmouth yardstick monohull and multihull, so lots of options. I can put my P16 into the Portsmouth multihull division, but handicap or not it feels like bringing a knife to a gunfight when you are playing with Tornadoes.

So, I was wondering if the small keelboat one design might be an affordable and family friendly option. I can't imagine any one putting $20k worth of sails on a 40 year old T22 or a 50 year old Shark, but even a lot less could be problematic.

The more I think about it, it might be easier to be somewhat competitive in the Jib and Main PHRF. Basically the Divisions there seem to be split >240, 230-240, and <230, so we aren't talking hot rod ocean racers by any stretch of the imagination. Possibly by going with one of the one designs so I have room to improve as I get better/more geared up.

I have done some racing on OPBs, but it doesn't really turn my crank because so much of the fun for me is sitting around trying to figure out how to make my boat better.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Arcb said:


> I have done some racing on OPBs, but it doesn't really turn my crank because so much of the fun for me is sitting around trying to figure out how to make my boat better.


The fun part of racing OPBs boats is you can race in a bracket you could not afford yourself. Being part of crew on a 40+ foot boat that you get to sail it like you stole it is a lot of fun. The owner is responsible to bring an new $5000 sail every other year to keep the boat competitive. In a big boat you have your one job and it is your job to do that to the best of your ability to make the boat go fast.

The nice thing about a more humble fleet you can stay competitive and have fun without breaking the bank. You may not have to spend 10s of thousands to stay competitive but if you are competing against well sailed boats you won't have a chance with 15 year old sails. Look for a well equipped boat with a good suit of sails and hopefully a spinnaker. You can spend the first year or two competing in non-spin, then step up your game when your crew work becomes dialed in.


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

I'm far from an expert on racing Arcb, but I do have a couple of thoughts that are relevant.
When we joined a club many years ago and raced our Albacore, I was amazed at the upgrades some of the 'pros' could make even to a 15' dinghy.
When we arrived in Nanaimo I raced on a boat owned by a fellow I got to know at the marina. It was a 26' San Juan I think, and Carl could sail it well. We raced under PHRF rules and being one of the smallest boats, Carl enjoyed a sizeable handicap. Anyway, we were pretty much always well behind everyone, in the winter especially it wasn't much fun. At the end of the race Carl would often place very well, sometimes second or third, but for me it wasn't much fun...it seems like racing equals, or close to equals, would be much better. 
Another example is a yacht club member who traded his Pearson 30 for an F27 I think it is. So he goes out and rockets around the course, way ahead of everyone...okay I guess.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Arcb said:


> ......so much of the fun for me is sitting around trying to figure out how to make my boat better.


You're so screwed.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

J24 is cutthroat around here. Boats only wet for races. Hours working on the bottom and such. PHRF is true beer can racing. A few hardcore people but in general not as bad as any one design racing.
Personally gave up on buoy racing and preferred point to point ocean racing. Found it more cerebral in some respects and folks tend to be more pleasant when they know their life may depend on you and they are stuck with you for days. Hate yelling at people and hate being yelled at. Still one design racing is the real deal in that as said it’s not about the boat. It is about the sailors.
The fact the America cup racing seems mostly about the engineers has turned me off. But I remain fascinated by anyone nuts enough to race in the southern ocean. So think it’s your choice. What will keep you motivated? What fleets are available? How easy is it to get good crew for that fleet? Have you crewed in the various opportunities near you? That might help inform your choice.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I find PHRF frustrating to race. Because of the way the rule is structured there is an 'every dog has it's day' about it. The rating situation and the different performance levels of the boats is enough that even if I win race by enough distance that I can't even see the second place boat, it does not feel like it was necessarily because of skill but more a matter of the differences in the boats that are out there. If you go the PHRF route, then pick a boat that does well in a broad range of conditions. Of the boats on your list, that would be the Kirby 25 or J-24. I actually owned a Kirby 25 and did quite well racing her in PRHF. I found the cockpit layout much more comfortable than the J-24 although we sailed the Kirby cross sheeted so that the jib could be trimmed from the rail, which takes some getting used to. I also moved the running backstay adjusters to a cam cleat under the traveler so that the mainsail trimmer could get to them. 

As much as I really liked the Kirby and thought the ergonomics, helm feel and build quality was better than the J-24, I would think that a J-24 might be a better choice since there is so much more material out there on how to sail them well and there is so much good used gear out there for fairly inexpensively that a club level J-24 campaign is pretty cheap. While the J-24 used to be the 'we are not joking' arms race king, those days are long past with most of the boats having at best decent prep and decent sails. The move to Kevlar genoas really brought down the cost to race J-24's since they last forever and you don't need a light and a heavy #1. They are not meant as 'cruising boats' but if you are only spending an occasional night on board, They should be fine. (I actually cruised my Kirby for a week or so. It was glorified camp cruising but it did not seem too bad at the time.) J-24's have some notorious issues like the keel sump and areas of delamination. Most that are still being raced have those issues addressed or the delams are small enough to be inconsequential. 

I have also tried to race Tanzer 22's. They are fun to race one-design since no one has 'breakaway' speed, and so it becomes very much a best skills and best prep wins. But Tanzers are really not very competitive as PHRF boats and there was a serious arms race since small improvements made big gains on the race course. That eventually made Tanzers wildly expensive to race around here and eventually killed the class. 

Jeff


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> ........ even if I win race by enough distance that I can't even see the second place boat, it does not feel like it was necessarily because of skill but more a matter of the differences in the boats that are out there.


Exactly. The first person to point this out will be the boat you left behind too.


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## Damon Gannon (Mar 3, 2017)

Find the boat that you like and get it. If it happens to be in a one-design class, great. If not, you can still race under PHRF. I think the one-design fleets have more of an arms race ($ race) than phrf. In a one-design fleet, if one boat gets new racing sails, then everyone is going to need new sails. Whereas you can get an individualized phrf rating for your boat based on the equipment that you actually have.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I was wondering if the Kirby 25 should be on my Radar, they share the local one design class with J24s, which should help to keep the class alive for longer? Not only that, but they might be enough boat that I could enter it in some of the Great Lakes "Offshore Races" like the LO 300 and it should be small enough that I might even be able to handle it in the single hand class. Any way, thats getting a bit ahead of myself.

I notice they are plentiful and several thousand dollars less than J24s around here, I assume because Mirage like Tanzer was a local company. 

To my eye, they are really sexy looking boats too.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

It sounds like a lot depends on the kind of racing you want to do. Both one-design and PHRF can be arms races, depending upon the fleet. When we raced Solings, it was almost pointless to go out if you didn't have a new suit of sails each season. PHRF also pre-supposes a well-prepared boat with good sails. Look at the various fleets to determine how deeply into their pockets the skippers seem willing to go, and perhaps select the one that matches your attitude. 

We stopped by once in St. Catherines ON, and noticed quite a good-sized fleet of Kirby 25's. They would seem suitable for the weekend excursions without breaking the bank, as well as PHRF or OD racing.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

paulk said:


> We stopped by once in St. Catherines ON, and noticed quite a good-sized fleet of Kirby 25's. They would seem suitable for the weekend excursions without breaking the bank, as well as PHRF or OD racing.


I used to be a member at Port Dalhousie Yacht Club (St Catharines)but my work schedule at the time prevented me from getting out on the Kirbys. Saw them out lots though.

Good tip, I will go out on my own boat and watch the different fleets to see which have the most unattainable looking sails.


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## Explorer (Oct 22, 2014)

Our two clubs each use a back calculated yardstick handicapping system for each yacht. The last 4 races count and earlier ones drop out each week. No matter what you do (new sails, strip back and fair the undersides) it will all be fully reflected in your handicap in 4 weeks. A program of continuous improvement over a few months might help you win one series but apart from that the handicapping system spreads the prizes around over the season. The software system used is called TopYacht ( https://topyacht.com.au/web/ ).

If you want to compete on scratch then the arms race can have some impact.

Sailing based on a BCY handicapping system rewards improvement in sailing including getting to know the peculiarities of the wind around geographical features, picking shifts on the beat, keeping the boat in the groove. You are sailing against yourself in trying to get around the course faster than you did last time and so do better on handicap, which of course changes your handicap and makes it tougher beat your handicap next time.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

What is your personality? Are you going to be frustrated if you don't win or are you going to be happy just being on the water? Are you looking to become a better sailor or to win the race? Are you looking for a boat to spend weekends on and also to race, or do you want a boat to race and to also (maybe) spend weekends on? 

Personally, if I wanted a boat for weekend cruising I would want something like the C&C 27. Good sailing boat, and comfortable too. If I wanted a race boat I would get something in the 22-24' range, probably the boat with the biggest fleet. Not so comfortable for a weekend but the racing would be better.

I have raced PHRF and one design. The nice thing about one design is that you know how you are doing during the entire race and you know your finishing position as soon as you cross the line. PHRF can be frustrating because it takes a day before you get the results. You can go to bed thinking you won and find out someone corrected over you. 

Good luck,
Barry


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Explorer, your system sounds intriguing, I think I would enjoy that. I am between yacht clubs right now because I am trailer sailing, but I do know both the local clubs use PHRF-LO for big boats and Portsmouth for dinghies. 

BarryL, no, I don't need to win, I just like to compete. I have been racing on and off since I was a kid, more Kayaks and canoes than sailboats and winning has rarely been in the cards lol. No, I am not looking for a cruising boat, I have a trailer sailer I like for cruising. I am doing some racing right now, but for the last few years I have been focusing all my resources on a single point to point event.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Explorer said:


> Our two clubs each use a back calculated yardstick handicapping system for each yacht. The last 4 races count and earlier ones drop out each week. No matter what you do (new sails, strip back and fair the undersides) it will all be fully reflected in your handicap in 4 weeks. A program of continuous improvement over a few months might help you win one series but apart from that the handicapping system spreads the prizes around over the season. The software system used is called TopYacht ( https://topyacht.com.au/web/ ).
> 
> If you want to compete on scratch then the arms race can have some impact.
> 
> Sailing based on a BCY handicapping system rewards improvement in sailing including getting to know the peculiarities of the wind around geographical features, picking shifts on the beat, keeping the boat in the groove. You are sailing against yourself in trying to get around the course faster than you did last time and so do better on handicap, which of course changes your handicap and makes it tougher beat your handicap next time.


I don't really understand why a rating system like that one would exist. (Then again, I really don't understand why golf handicaps exist.) It seems like this would result in a race to the bottom performance wise. Its one thing to try to correct for differences between boat designs, so that you are scoring based on the skills of the captain and crew. But this system rewards poor sailing skills, poor preparation, blown out sails, and poor boat designs. Talk about a system where the competitors never know how they are doing. It would tend to chase off anyone who actually cared about racing, leaving only the most casually incidental racer. You might as well simply hand out trophies to whoever makes it around the course and be done with it. This just plain seems crazy.

Jeff


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Jeff_H said:


> I don't really understand why a rating system like that one would exist. (Then again, I really don't understand why golf handicaps exist.) It seems like this would result in a race to the bottom performance wise. It's one thing to try to correct for differences between boat designs, so that you are scoring based on the skills of the captain and crew. But this system rewards poor sailing skills, poor preparation, blown out sails, and poor boat designs. Talk about a system where the competitors never know how they are doing. It would tend to chase off anyone who actually cared about racing, leaving only the most casually incidental racer. You might as well simply hand out trophies to whoever makes it around the course and be done with it. This just plain seems crazy.
> 
> Jeff


I agree, makes no sense at all to me. It reminds me of my nephews growing up in Socal, where everyone gets a participation trophy. I would never guess something like that happening in Australia.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Jeff_H said:


> I don't really understand why a rating system like that one would exist. (Then again, I really don't understand why golf handicaps exist.) It seems like this would result in a race to the bottom performance wise. Its one thing to try to correct for differences between boat designs, so that you are scoring based on the skills of the captain and crew. But this system rewards poor sailing skills, poor preparation, blown out sails, and poor boat designs. Talk about a system where the competitors never know how they are doing. It would tend to chase off anyone who actually cared about racing, leaving only the most casually incidental racer. You might as well simply hand out trophies to whoever makes it around the course and be done with it. This just plain seems crazy.
> 
> Jeff


One of my yacht clubs does something similar for their club series. I haven't been racing in it, but by all accounts people seem happy with it.

I don't think it causes a "race to the bottom". What it does is encourage the less serious club members to get out there and race. A number of the boats in the club are more serious racers who compete in the regional racing series, and for them the local club races are more about socializing with fellow members, and practicing their boat handling skills. The rest of the fleet are members that just want to get out and sail, and don't have the resources or inclination to participate in the arms race. Racing fleets throughout our region have been getting smaller and smaller, and this is an effort to slow that trend.

The casual racers do find it intimidating and frustrating to race against the serious guys. In the past the fleet was big enough to break it up into divisions, but these days separating the faster boats from the slower would lead to very small divisions.

The hybrid handicap system gives the slower boats some hope that if they have a really good day they have a chance of winning a race. For the faster boats it gives them a challenge to keep pushing themselves even if they are far ahead of the fleet. There are always rivalries and races within the race to keep things interesting.

The reality is that some of the casual boats ARE improving. They are learning from the veterans. They see how much better the big boys can point, and aspire to that. They ask and learn about boat handling and tactics from the veterans. Some of the more experienced sailors such as myself go out on the boats that are struggling, give them pointers, and help train their crew. The result is that rather than getting frustrated and staying at the dock, some are catching the racing bug, and improving their boats and getting new sails.

So it is all about trying to be friendly and inclusive, which is, after all, the whole point of yacht clubs.

Someone in this thread referred to racers as "horrible people". Perhaps where they are that is true, but it certainly has not been my experience.

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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Useful discovery today. One of the clubs has race capable club boats for both T22 and Shark. It would seem the logical thing to do before buying a keelboat is spend a season racing the club boats.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Arcb said:


> Useful discovery today. One of the clubs has race capable club boats for both T22 and Shark. It would seem the logical thing to do before buying a keelboat is spend a season racing the club boats.


That's perfect! Try before you buy! Or just keep racing club boats and put your money into your cruising boat.

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