# I know I'll regret this



## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

But, I'm stuck in Seattle getting ready for an argument tomorrow, so what the heck.

I've had an inquiry from someone wanting to do our rally in a Catalina 30. He put the question to me of whether I think the boat's up to it. Assuming the boat is properly equipped (huge bbq, etc.), thoughts on taking a Catalina 30 from NY to Bermuda in a rally?

I have my own view, which I'll wait to express until the jury is in.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

He was Captain of the Nightingale
Twenty-one days from Clyde in coal
He could smell the flowers of Bermuda in the gale....




(sorry)


----------



## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Plan the right weather window(s) its possible - is it a standard C-30 or a C-320?

It will just take you longer to get there.. IMHO - Sorry about your stay in Rainy Seattle - when you leave it will be nice and clear again!


----------



## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Dan, I would not do it in C30. It's a coastal boat and New York to Bermuda is not a Coastal cruise. Here a link for the list of boats the did 2008 Newport to Bermuda. NO C30 there. In fact I don't think it would meet the rules.
Who's Competing in 2008?


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I agree with Bubb. 
Would also either not be in touch with the fleet or would be holding the fleet up. What's the point? I wouldn't take a Westsail32 on the rally either even though it is much more likely to make a safe passage.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The smallest boat listed at bubb's link is a J109 AFAICT. Cam's point about its ability to keep up is a very valid one.


----------



## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

artbyjody said:


> is it a standard C-30 or a C-320?


.... Just an FYI.... the C-30 and C-320 are quite different boats released more than 10 years apart. The C-30 would rattle around inside a C-320 like a dried bean


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Not sure if any of the question was directed at me, Dan, but if so I have no first hand experience with a C30. However, my thoughts are less about the boat and more the captain. I guess it all comes down to the offshore experience of the captain. If he is a novice and the boat is not tested and not really built for that purpose, than he needs more "luck" than someone else who has the background/boat.

My opinions.

- CD


----------



## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

the C30 doesn't qualify by any other organized rally that I can find, too short, not robust enough. I could see a couple of newbie's wanting to try it, I can also pretty well dictate the news story about the failed rescue attempt.

Sure it's been done by smaller, badly equipped vessels- but not as a part of a rally where there is some liability on the organizer.

I've sailed a C30 on the Ches. Bay and would not think of taking one blue water for much more than a trip to the Bahama's, in a good weather window and even then it would have to pass a serious inspection first. People own economy boats for a reason; and that reason is usually not because they want to upgrade them to blue water capable.


----------



## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Looking at that list, it seems every other boat is a Swan...


----------



## alan_21_us (Feb 13, 2006)

What is the optimal size boat for a sail of this type? Is it the size of the C30 or the quality of the boat that's getting to be the issue. Just for info, would my pearson 33 be capable?


----------



## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

I sail a C30 and would not consider sailing it to Bermuda. With a good weather window you would almost certainly make it, but if something starts to brewing out there, you are in serious dung. I've sailed my on the open Atlantic in six foot seas with 25 kt winds, and it's none too comfortable. Much more and it get's dicey.

The Pearson 33 would be better, but as far as I know it's a coast cruiser and not suitable for such a voyage.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Loaded question*

I owned one, and have also sailed to Bermuda but I did NOT and would not on the C-30. The C-30 is a great boat for it's intended purpose but the course from the NE to Bermuda can get rough, very, very rough.

I sailed it once on a very stoutly built Bud Macintosh designed 50+ foot wooden schooner and we got tossed around like a ping pong ball in a front loader. If it can beat up a 50,000 plus pound vessel imagine what it could do to a C-30.

Can it be done? Yes. Should it be done... well??? This should only be attempted by someone with vast experience and ocean miles this is not a trip for the faint of heart or an "on a whim" sailor who's only ever bay or coastal sailed.

Hell I've delivered a Hunter to Nova Scotia and had it beat up fairly badly in a fall Nor' Westerlies. I will no longer deliver coastal boats to off shore destinations not even teh short jump over to Nova Scotia.. Not because it can't be done, it can, but rather becuause when cabinets and bulkheads don't fit, and are out of whack from rough seas and the resulting hull flex when I arive, the owners tend to blame the captain not the builder.

"What did you do to my boat nothing closes or fits right?" "I kept her on the surface instead of the bottom, you should be happy I was able to reduce sail enough (with only ONE reef point on the main BTW) and get her balanced enough that she did not suffer more structural damage!"

I certainly have the skills and am a HUGE fan of the C-30, for it's intended purpose, but would not do that trip myself in that boat because I know what type of weather can occur between here and there and also how the C-30 handles it.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

No. I raced against Catalina 30s and they can get squirrelly in downwind conditions over 25 knots...they just don't have enough "grip". They also feature a vast companionway hatch that is completely unsuitable for offshore work, and there is no easy way to carry enough fuel and water to do the trip.

Everything that makes the C30 the "archetype" of 1980s coastal/inshore production boats militates against them being an offshore boat.

I wouldn't take a Dodge Caravan in a desert rally, either.

EDIT: Wow...everyone's saying pretty well the same thing. That's unusual!


----------



## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

and politely, as well !


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Here's the 2008 list for Newport to Bermuda. You'll notice that the venerable CS-36 can play with the big dogs!!


Alden 50 CD 
 _AM 3_ Apogee 50 

_ANJANEYA_ Ben First 42 

_ATALANTA_ Little Harbor 54 

_ATTITUDE_ Beneteau 423 

_AVALON_ Baltic 43 

_BANDERA_ CTM S&S/Hinckley 

_BERMUDA OYSTER_ Oyster 435 

_BLUEBIRD_ Migrant 45 

_BONSPIEL_ Nordic 44 

_BREEZING UP_ J 46 

_CETACEA_ Hinckley SW 59 

_CHECKMATE_ Alden 44 

_DAWN TREADER_ Tartan 37 

_DIVA_ Morris 46 

_EIDER DOWN_ Apogee 50 

_FIDELIS_ Crealock 37 

_FREEDOM_ Sabre 452 

_GEM_ Najad 380 

_GRYF II_ US 46 Yawl 

_HELDELEINE_ Pearson 35 

_II BODACIOUS_ Sabre 402 

_ISOLA_ Baltic 52 

_LAURA B_ Island Packet 45 

_MENSAE_ Swan 56 

_MOONRACER_ Little Harbor 60 

_NOSTOS_ Alden 44 

_NOVA_ Swan 56 

_PILGRIM_ CTM Able 58 

_POESKE_ Ben First 42 

_SHEARWATER_ Mason 43 

_SHEARWATER_ Morris 40 

_SHEILA R_ Valiant 42 

_SILHOUETTE_ Cherubini 

_SKY_ Swan 53 

_SPIRIT_ Morgan 38 

_TEMPTRESS_ IMX 45 

_TENHO_ Farr 50 Pilothouse 

_THISTLE_ Hinckley 48 

_TIGER TOO_ CTM 48 

_TUCANA_ Vindo 65 

_TWILIGHT_ Cook 51 

_WHISPER_ Hinckley 48 

_WILD GOOSE II_ Jeanneau 40 

_AMHAS_ Class 40 

_DRAGON_ J 120 

_DRAGON_ Class 40 

_ESMERALDE_ Sabre 386 

_FREEBIRD_ Swan 44 

_KILLUA_ Aphrodite 101 

_LORA ANN_ Express 37 

_MIREILLE_ J 120 

_OCEAN WANDERER1_ Montevideo 43 

_OFFBEAT_ J 109 

_PALADIN_ J 35 

*SECOUDON II **CS 36 *

_THULA_ Baltic 39 

_VALKYRIE_ First 40.7 

_AQUARIUS_ Swan 601CR 

_BELLA MENTE_ RP 69 

_BLUE YANKEE_ RP66 

_CAPTIVITY_ CM60 

_MAGIC_ Santa Cruz 52 

_MONEYPENNY_ RP 65 

_NUMBERS_ IRC 66 

_RAMBLER_ CTM 90 

_ROSEBUD/TEAM DYT_ STP 65 

_SIRENSONG_ J 133 

_SJAMBOK_ RP 45 

_SNOW LION_ Ker 50 

_SWEET LORRAINE_ J 145 C 

_TENACIOUS_ First 36.7 

_GRYPHON SOLO_ Open Class 50 

_PRIVATEER_ Cookson 50 

_SPEEDBOAT_ JuanK 98 

_VO 70_ VO 70 

_ABIGAIL_ CTM 52 

_ABRACADABRA_ J 46 

_ACTAEA_ BDA 40 

_AFFINITY_ J 42 

_AKUBRA_ J 44 

_ALEXIS_ Aerodyne 38 

_AMERICAN GIRL_ X 37 

_AURORA_ Tartan 41 

_AVRA_ J 120 

_BABE_ Swan 46 

_BACCHANAL_ J 133 

_BACCI_ Swan 53 

_BANDANA_ Swan 47 

_BARLEYCORN_ NYYC Swan 42 

_BARRA_ Morris 48 

_BLACK WATCH_ CTM 68 

_BOMBARDINO_ Santa Cruz 52 

_BRAND NEW DAY_ J 65 

_BUENA RACHA_ J 145 

_CABADY_ Taylor 42 

_CADENCE_ Apogee 50 

_CARINA_ CTM 48 

_CARINTHIA_ J 120 

_CATAPULT_ J 122 

_CELERITAS_ NYYC Swan 42 

_CEOL MOR_ J 42 

_CHALLENGE IV_ J 44 

_CHARISMA_ SS 57 

_CHARLIE V_ J 44 

_CHASSEUR_ Swan 44 

_CHIPPEWA_ Swan 68 

_CHRISTOPHER DRAGON_ J 122 

_CILISTA_ J 130 

_CLOVER III_ Swan 56 

_CONSPIRACY_ NYYC Swan 42 

_CRAZY HORSE_ Frers Comp 45 

_CRESCENDO_ Swan 44 Mk11 

_CYBELE_ IMX 45 

_CYGNE_ Swan 46 CB 

_CYGNETTE_ Swan 441 

_DEFIANCE_ Navy 44 MKII 

_DEFIANCE_ J/V 66 

_DELONG SHADOW_ J 44 

_DEVOCEAN_ Swan 45 

_DOGSLED_ Kaufman 

_DOLPHIN_ J 42 

_DONNYBROOK_ Smith/Lee 73 

_EDEN_ Swan 65 

_EMILY_ Nielsen CTM 44 

_FAMILY AFFAIR_ Tartan 41 

_FAT CITY TOO_ Swan 391 

_FINESSE_ J 42 

_FIRST LIGHT_ Baltic 55 WK 

_FLYING GOOSE_ Derecktor Ctm 56 

_FLYING JENNY VI_ J 122 

_FURY_ Baltic 48 DP 

_GALADRIEL_ Swan 46 

_GLORY_ J 44 

_GOLD DIGGER_ J 44 

_GRACIE_ McC&R 69 

_GREY GHOST_ Zaal 38 

_GREY MATTER_ 470E 

_HEXE_ Frers 80 

_HIGH NOON_ Tripp 41C 

_HIRO MARU_ Swan 43 Classic 

_HOKAHEY_ Santa Cruz 52 

_HONAHLEE_ J 44 

_HOUND_ CTM 60 

_JACQUELINE IV_ Hinckley SW 42 

_KODIAK_ Sagamore 

_LINDY_ Peterson 38 

_LIVELY LADY II_ Carter 37 

_MARIAH_ J 42 

_MAXINE_ J 44 

_MISCHIEVOUS_ CTM 65 

_MISTY_ J 40 SD 

_MOJOE_ Serendipity 43 

_MOONDANCE_ Swan 44 

_MORGAN'S GHOST_ Swan 42 

_MUTINY_ Swan 42 

_NASTY MEDICINE_ CTM 40 

_NATALIE J_ N/M 46 C/R 

_NIDA_ LaCoste 42 

_NIGHT TRAIN_ C&C 40 

_NIRVANA_ 80' Maxi 

_PATRIOT_ J 122 

_PEREGRINE_ J 120 

_PLENTY_ Swan 45 

_PRIM_ MO Owens Cutter 

_QUEST_ Cambria 40 CB 

_REINDEER_ Morris 47 

_RESOLUTE_ J 44-WK 

_RESOLUTE_ J 44 

_RICOCHET_ J 120 

_RIMA2_ RP 55 

_RIPPLE_ J 37 

_RUNAWAY_ J 44 

_SCARAMOUCHE_ CTM 54 

_SCHEMATIC_ J 42 

_SCREAMING EAGLE_ J 122 

_SELKIE_ CTM 38 

_SERENGETI_ Tripp 60 

_SHOCKWAVE 5_ R/P 80 

_SINN FEIN_ Cal 40 

_SIREN_ New York 32 

_SLIDE RULE_ First 44.7 

_SOLUTION_ CTM 50 

_STAMPEDE_ J 44 

_SWIFT_ Navy 44 MKI 

_TABASCO_ J 46 

_TANGO_ Aerodyne 43 

_TICKET TO RIDE_ Swan 46 

_TRUE_ J 42 

_UPGRADE_ Farr 395 

_VAMP_ J 44 

_WAZIMO_ Aerodyne 38 

_WESTER TILL_ CTM A&R 48 

_WESTRAY_ Concordia Yawl 

_WHIMSICAL OF WIGHT_ Malo 45 

_WHISPER_ Canning 48 

_WINDBORN_ J 120 

_XENOPHON_ Swan 44 MKII 

_YOYO!_ First 47.7 

_ZARAFFA_ RP 66 

_ZEST_ Hinckley SW 42


----------



## MoonSailer (Jun 1, 2007)

Pearson 323?? I have a Pearson 323 which has pretty good "numbers". A friend was sailing his Catalina 30 off of Panama City Florida and described the conditions as "very rough". We were out about the ame time and had a great time. I mostly assumed that it was the sailer and not the boat.


----------



## genieskip (Jan 1, 2008)

I have done that race 11 times and cruised back a number of times and I strongly believe that a 30' coastal cruiser has no place doing it without such extensive refitting that a boat designed for ocean sailing would be cheaper. As mentioned by another poster, the skipper and crew are still the most important part of the equation. 

As an interesting side note, more than half a century ago there was a hard and fast size limitation for the Bermuda Race of 35'. A very stout little British boat named Cohoe, skippered by legendary Brit sailor Adelard Coles, wanted to enter the 1950 race. He was so prestigious a sailor that the race committee allowed him to screw on 3' of false bow to make the minimum length. Another boat was allowed to add a fake stern to also make the minimum length. Needless to say, there were many jokes in the sailing world about taking Cohoe's bow and Flying Scotchman's stern and making a new boat out of it. Coles went on to race Cohoe (minus fake bow) across to England after the Bermuda Race. His book about the crossing "North Atlantic - Boat Againts boat over 3000 miles" was a classic of its time.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Maine Sail-

I think you're a bit biased when it comes to the CS 36T for some reason...


----------



## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

Too slow, IMHO. If you hold the arrival party until they arrive, you'll piss off everyone who's been there two days already. If you have the party while they're still 100 miles at sea, you'll piss them off. Why piss anyone off? Tell them, "No".


----------



## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Looking at that boat list ... the phrase "Too rich for my blood" springs to mind! A C30 would finish about six days behind the Santa Cruz 52. Of course, you'd also be about as conspicuous as a kazoo at a chamber music recital.

As for boats that could make it? A Valiant, an Albin, a Contessa, a Westsail. I'd trust any boat from those manufacturers to sail about anywhere. Most would be punishing, wet, and struggling to stay close to the Big Boys. I'd sail a Contessa 32 to Bermuda, but I wouldn't do it on anyone else's schedule nor expect anyone to watch or wait for me.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

A J/35 or 109 with eight young guys on it could compete...but even there, it's not a fun prospect.

I think 11 metres/35 feet is about the cut-off for this, excluding the old warhorses of proven bluewater credentials listed above. 

But they would merely arrive, safe and sound, after the band had packed up. At some point, the waterline issue is going to kill you in terms of even pretending to stay in contention.


----------



## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> Here's the 2008 list for Newport to Bermuda. You'll notice that the venerable CS-36 can play with the big dogs!!
> 
> Alden 50 CD


Anyone else notice the Alden 50 - CD...

CD SAILS?:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I've done the trip in a Bayfield 32. It wasen't that bad, maybe a little uncomfortable when we hit the wall. But we double handed and saw some 30-35 knot stuff. And we had it on the nose the entire time. As for speed, a boat that does 8 knots is only 24 hours faster then one that will do 6 knots over 600 miles. The Catalina would see the band.


----------



## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

Thanks everyone.

My thought is to advise the person "no." It's always hard to tell someone "no," but here's my thinking, which is pretty much in line what others have said:

1. Size. A catalina 30 is going to be much slower than the other boats. Both because of waterline, but also because of fuel capacity. If the wind is light (which is very typical during the time of year we go), the C30 won't have the fuel capacity to keep up motoring. Obviously this is a sailing rally, but the reality is that most boats who make this trip want to make the passage as quickly as possible, so when the wind lightens, the iron genny gets rolled out.

2. The boat definitely is a coastal cruiser. Couple this with the speed factor, and it means that the boat MUST be able to handle conditions beyond the reasonable weather forecast. Aside from the usual inaccuracies in weather forecasting, you can't get a good forecast out more than 3 to 4 days, and the smaller boat no doubt will take longer than 4 days. So, that boat is going to need to be able to handle more difficult conditions. The truth is that you rarely encounter those conditions in these June rallies, but obviously that can't be guaranteed.

3. The impression I get is that the skipper is not the most experienced. I don't know that for certain, but by the nature of the question, my sense is that the skipper is looking to get bluewater experience (which is typical for a rally). So, combine the slower speed, coastal nature of the boat, and the skipper's lack of experience, it's not a great combination.

To be candid, even though it would be slower, we would take a Westsail 32 or something comparable because we would have some degree of confidence that the smaller stouter boat would get there OK. But the idea of having a coastal boat lag the fleet would be too stressful. Not from a liability perspective, as we have fairly comprehensive waivers, but when you organize a rally you really do stress over each boat's safe arrival as if it were your own. At least that's how I feel.

Anyway, as hard as it is to turn away a participant, I think we'll exercise the better part of valor. Thanks for the responses all.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Good decision. It's just not enough boat for that voyage. They are very common on Lake Ontario, and yet they can get into trouble here in summer squalls, mostly due to the same set of characteristics that make them quite a successful light-air cruiser-racer.


----------



## mccary (Feb 24, 2002)

*I sail a Catalina 27*

I love my boat, she is easy to single-hand and is perfect for me, but I sail on The Chesapeake Bay just south of Annapolis. I have given some thought to moving up to a Catalina 30 or 309 (current version of a 30).

But, as others have said, these boats are not designed for open water. Sure someone did some modifications and sailed a Catalina 27 around the world, but lets be realistic here. That boat while certainly capable of sailing to Bermuda with "perfect weather" you would be crazy to attempt that. Weather changes, and it changes without warning and changes quickly. Look at the limitations of the boat and work within those limitations and enjoy what you can do. If you must make ocean passages over a few hours long then get a boat designed for that.

I have given some thought to hauling my boat to Florida and sailing to the Bahamas. That trip could be done safely but I see that as the absolute outer limit of safety for a Catalina 27 and I would need to be willing to sit and wait for the right weather window before crossing the Gulf Stream to Bimini and the same goes for the return.

And lastly a sailing rally seems to me that part of the lure is in the safety in the numbers. You are not alone if something happens there will be other boats who could come to assist/rescue you. But if you are the slowest boat in the fleet then your help might just be over the horizon when you need them the most. My vote would be for the captain to find someone in the fleet who has the right boat but needs crew. Then you get the experience of the rally and the safety of the bigger boat.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

mccary said:


> I love my boat, she is easy to single-hand and is perfect for me, but I sail on The Chesapeake Bay just south of Annapolis. I have given some thought to moving up to a Catalina 30 or 309 (current version of a 30).


Not to change the subject, but get a 320 instead. or a Tayana 37.

- CD


----------



## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

Cruisingdad said:


> Not to change the subject, but get a 320 instead. or a Tayana 37.
> 
> - CD


Oh sure, hijack my thread why dontcha. Where's Cam the Moderator when you need him!


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

danielgoldberg said:


> Oh sure, hijack my thread why dontcha. Where's Cam the Moderator when you need him!


AND WHATEVER YOU DO.... DONT GET A BENETEAU 49!!!!!

HEHE!

- Brian


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CD has let the power go to his head and corrupt him... he's pushing his Catalina AGENDA upon us.... Run away!!!


----------



## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

Cruisingdad said:


> AND WHATEVER YOU DO.... DONT GET A BENETEAU 49!!!!!
> 
> HEHE!
> 
> - Brian


Oh sure, now you tell me! Where were you when I was begging for someone to talk some sense into me back in July/August? Picking out spatulas, or maybe some new fangled BBQ sauce I bet.


----------



## ArgleBargle (Jan 8, 2007)

*Stan Rogers*



sailboy21 said:


> He was Captain of the Nightingale
> Twenty-one days from Clyde in coal
> He could smell the flowers of Bermuda in the gale....
> 
> (sorry)


Wow ... a Stan Rogers quote ... first i've seen on this site ... and not even from a canuck. very impressive. How I wish i was in Sherebrooke now.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

"Ah, for just one time I would take the Northwest Passage
To find the hand of Franklin reaching for the Beaufort Sea;
Tracing one warm line through a land so wild and savage
And make a Northwest Passage to the sea."

I think of this song every time I ride my bicycle when it's below freezing, like today. I could _have _a car, but I have a boat instead. That means winter cycling and a chance to test out my foulies on land...


----------

