# Long Distance Small Boat Sailing



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

In the Summer of 2009, I'm going to single-hand, in a sailing dinghy, Alaska's Inside Passage from Prince Rupert B.C. to as far North as I can get in three months. I'm taking my dog, who has also canoed with me on a 600 mile "solo" canoe trip in Canada. I have sponsorship of whatever gear I need- except for a boat. 
That's why I'm here- asking sailnet members what boat I should consider for this trip. Here are the conditions. Mostly, the Inside Passage is protected from outside waters. There are a couple of crossings that will be exposed. There are some rocky areas. 
Beach landings will be required; sail plan must be functional for light or heavy winds; trailerability; substantial balast or darn-good (single-hander) self-righting capability; self bailing cockpit; ample storage for aprox 370 lbs gear; able to claw off the wind; must be capable of storing anchoring equipment. Easy, right? 
I've been looking around but haven't found what I'm looking for yet. I'd be interested in any ideas. I just ask that readers please notice what the boat must do before making a recommendation. 
This trip could also use sponsorship. I'll consider any boat capable of making the trip. Thanks, and Sail ON!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

What size sailing dinghy? And what is your definition of a sailing dinghy?? Generally, sailing dinghies don't have ballast... most have a centerboard and use form stability to help reduce capsizing. If you want a ballasted boat, then it isn't a sailing dinghy.

A Laser is a sailing dinghy. A Soling is not, it is a keelboat—granted a small one...but a keelboat.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

OK, what I'm saying is I need a boat to do the stuff I mentioned. Am I reading that you suggest a Laser or a Soling?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

No... I'm saying that in your original post... you're talking about a sailing dinghy...but you're also wanting a boat that is self-righting and/or heavily ballasted... which excludes almost every sailing dinghy I can think of... so I'm asking you to clarify your requirements...

A Catalina 25 or 22 could make that trip... if you have the necessary sailing skills... and could carry that much gear easily... and both are trailerable, although the 22 is far easier to trailer IIRC. There are probably two dozen other small trailerable boats that could do the job, given your very vague requirements..

*Beachability, especially on a rocky beach, is going to be a problem for almost all of the boats... it would also help if you mentioned what your budget is. *


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I looked at the Catalina 22 but Practical Sailor gave it a pretty rough review. I looked at Lasers- no room for equipment storage or a dog there. The Soling I looked at was bigger and had a glassed-in keel. That's not going to work. Any other suggestions?
My budget is...cheap or sponsored. I'd pay to ship a quality boat back to the 48 states, a cheaper boat I'd sell in AK. My budget is under $4000. Taking three months off of work cuts into the boat budget.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

That's why I was asking you to clarify what your requirements are... I take it that it doesn't need to be a sailing dinghy. In that case, you've got a good number of choices. I was using the Laser and the Soling as stereotypes of a sailing dinghy and a keelboat to make my point. Your requirements, as I see it from your original post are:

Capable of making short exposed crossings
Beachable
Sail plan must allow reefing for heavy winds
Trailerabie
Fairly decent capsize recovery ability 
Self-bailing cockpit
Storage and space for 370 lbs. gear, 1 human, 1 medium size canine
Good windward ability
Decent ground tackle 

Now prioritize these...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Just reading over sailing dog's comments, there is a pivotal question here; should the trip be done in a ballasted boat (keelboat) or in a centerboard boat (dinghy). I'd love to hear from anyone who has done some extended coastal cruising in either type. What did you use? What were the pros and cons?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Ak-

Most bigger centerboard boats aren't sailing dinghies... Sailing dingies generally have an unballasted centerboard, but also generally have no cabin, no ground tackle system, and aren't self-righting.

The trip can be done... but my guess is that most of the people who have done it, have done it in smaller keelboats, like the Flicka, Bristol Channel Cutter, and other fairly seaworthy boats, due to the nature of the conditions up there. The water, being fairly cold, presents a major hazard-hypothermia is a killer.

I took a quick look over at boats.com... and it doesn't look good. You're in much the same situation as the guys in this thread.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Following up, the boat must be one of two types.

Beachable *OR* Decent ground tackle (in the latter case the boat must be big enough to accomodate some type of conveyance to the beach)

Fairly decent capsize recovery ability *OR* Self-bailing cockpit

The rest of the requirements are inflexible:

Capable of making short exposed crossings

Sail plan must allow reefing for heavy winds

Trailerable

Storage and space for 370 lbs. gear, 1 human, 1 medium size canine

Good windward ability

So were going into one of two basic categories of boat.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

There are lots of boats that will suit those requirements... but none that will fall within your budget AFAIK. 

Some possibilities could included the West Wight Potter, the Seaward Fox, the MacGregor Venture, Cape Dory Typhoon, several of the catboats, the Flicka. 

I have little doubt that the Cape Dory Typhoon, the West Wight Potter, and the Flicka, could make the journey, but the others I don't know enough about...I also doubt that any of these three would ever fall in your price range, unless they were in very poor condition.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks for the recommendations. These are interesting looking boats, probably very workable.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Any further info on the Macgregor? The 21 and 22 can be bought reasonably. Anyone know of their handling characteristics, trailerability, or other of the above-mentioned qualities?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Of the ones I mentioned, I like the West Wight Potter the best as possible candidates. IIRC, the designer sailed one from the UK to Sweden and beached it near the end of his journey... and then finished the delivery after getting fed and rested..


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## toddrtownsend (Jun 13, 2006)

At one time, I thought I was just crazy enough to try to do the Great Loop in an open boat. I boat the study plans for Alaska, a beautifully designed whitehall pulling/sailing boat. You'd have to build her; there are wood and plywood/fiberglass plans I believe.

I found the site. This boat is beautiful! 

check out:

http://www.dhkurylko-yachtdesign.com/build.htm

TrT


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Webb Chiles once nearly completed a circumnavigation in a Drascombe Lugger, which is a 19' open sailboat... so a Great Loop wouldn't be all that big a deal to do, relatively speaking.


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Check these Typhoons...
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi...r=Cape Dory&view_records=1&sb=date&so=descend


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## jimmyb116 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Cal 20 not bad*

I have done the trip from Victoria BC to the Queen Charlotte Islands several times as a child on a 47' boat and once as an adult on a san juan 24, i'm not sure i would do it on anything smaller, the weather can go from good to #$%^& in 30 min or less. I raced a cal 20 for several years and wouldent count it out.

James


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The Cape Dory Typhoon is a beautiful little boat. The ballast is also reassuring. I'd love further info on them if anyone can help.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

The venture 22 is not nearly as good a boat as the Catalina 22 and you've already commented on the catalina 22. Venture 23 if you could get one cheap would work decently too especially if you get a cutter rig. 
Actually...I think that is about the ONLY decent boat you can get that might fall in your price range. You COULD beach either in sandy areas but would need to anchor in rocky ones. Good luck!

The typhoon is a CLASSIC and one of my favorites but it is small and deep keeled so it doesn't sound like what you need. Someday I will buy one of those and restore it....truly a beautiful little boat.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You could make your trip in a Sandpiper 565, a pretty great microcruiser. They sell for about 4500 in okay shape on a trailer. Other options...Siren, Matilda 20, Compac, Nordica 20. Boats you are looking for are popular on the Great Lakes.

http://www.boatforsale.net/class/default.asp

http://sailquest.com/market/


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

*Try a Shark*

Assuming the beachability issue is related to your canine companion, you will need a decent dinghy to get ashore. Frankly I doubt that you will find many beaches conducive to running the boat ashore in the waters you are contemplating, and tides will complicate that practice and severely limit your time ashore, or your schedule if you get trapped high and dry.

For a trip such as you are contemplating and given your criteria, any of the ballasted shallow draft keelboats mentioned above could fill the bill.

One not mentioned so far, and rare on the west coast but otherwise probably perfect for you would be a 24' Shark. Shoal draft of 3 feet, easily managed fractional rig, decent cockpit and with accomodations that are plenty for your plans. Our first sailboat was one of these, and it was a great introduction for some beginners, with good manners and decent performance for its size.

Built in Ontario, (and some under licence in Vancouver) designed by Hinterhoeller this is an active one-design on the Lakes. It has a decent sized lazarette where you might store a smallish inflatable for your trips ashore. http://sailquest.com/market/models/shark.htm Best of all it may well fit into your budget should you find one (check marinas for apparently abandoned or neglected ones - the value quoted in the link is probably a few years old and on the high side)

Rarer still but with many similar attributes is another Hinterholler design from the same era, the 20' Cygnet. However this boat does not have a self bailing cockpit.

This is an ambitious plan, esp. on your "budget". Good luck to you.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I would recommend that you do some research on the Gulf of Alaska, as that can be some of the worst seas in the world. Once you get out from Chichagof Island, and start going up the coast towards Yakatat and Cordova you'll be in a very exposed position with very little in the way of assistance available. While it's certainly doable, I hope you realize just what you could be in for once you leave the Inside Passage.


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## txmatt (Nov 27, 2006)

If you like the Typhoon, take a look at a Kittiwake 23 or a South Coast 23. They are not the most common boats where you are, but do exist and can be substaintially cheaper. Draft is just shy of three feet and the ballast is substaintial.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The kittywake 23 might be a good design...and it is basically the same boat as the south coast 23... both Carl Alberg designs IIRC... There's a good article on the two in this month's Good Old Boat magazine. Technically, they're the same design, since the Kittiwake mold was taken from a south coast 23 hull IIRC.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

mac 25 seems to fit your needs. not much headroom but stable for the size (reefing of course) and are reasonably priced, trailerable and are good sailing boats. a buddy of mine sailed one from san diego to alaska and back with no problems with a decent weather window. he was dredge mining gold and made a small score.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

The Cal 21 has a swing keel, meets your other requirements, and can be found on the west coast. You can find one reasonable. The Potter would be a good choice also.
I would advise that the passage may not be exactly what you are expecting, depending also on time of year. Very high winds are common and can be "funneled". And strong tidal currents, in excess of 5 knots, can make the wind seem minor.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

well the only thing that comes to mind, and i do cringe a bit to even suggest it is the Catalina 25 swing keel. i know Catalinas are very light, and most certainly not 'over built'.. there are probably much better boats in this vein that i am not aware of??


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

AHH Sailaway21 a Cal 21! yes!!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

We have a fleet of Sharks at our club, and I must say that if you can live without the headroom, they are an excellent starter boat and are decent on the racecourse. They can even be made "cozy" down below: I've seen some ridiculously well-appointed ones. But their best attribute is sheer toughness: they are about the smallest boat I would take out into 30-35 knots and feel good about getting back in one piece. I wouldn't be very dry, mind you, but in one somewhat soggy piece.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I thought we were talking about sailing dinghies?
That Walker Bay with the Inflatable Tubes is almost capsizeable proof and Bleachable. If you have a support boat/crew, you might want to consider it. There should be just enough room for camping equipment and your dog.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sailortjk1-

We are talking about the inside passage to Alaska... this is not really anywhere you'd want to be sailing in an open sailing dinghy IMHO. He doesn't have a support boat or crew AFAIK...at least he hasn't mentioned such. Even in the best of times... the weather is very changeable and the water can be a serious hypothermia risk. Not exactly the conditions for an open boat.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

What is the Man Crazy! When he said dinghy and Alaska, I guess I made the mistake of thinking he would have support crew. Thats the only way to do it in a sailing dinghy, you would have to have support.

He did mention sponsorship, I would think he would have crew.


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## Kernix (Oct 5, 2006)

Save up more money or get a part time job - or - do you know any local bands real well that are just starting to play out? Ask them if they'll play a beef and beef benefit for you, though you'll probably have to split the profilts - actually 1/5 if 4 guys in the band - the only way to take 1/2 is if you do all the planning and logistics- Anyway, beef & beers are fun for peeps who don't see each other a lot plus for meeting new people - cheap food & cheap bear for $20 a head a there's a live band - not a bad saturday, especially if it's in a time of year where the weather is cold and people are looking for something to do. 

If you could gaurantee that you're costs are $10 or less, 200 people would be $4000 gross, $2000 net (if the band plays for free - exposure) or $1000 for you is splitting 50\50 with the band - every other 50 peeps is another $250 for you if you split - get the overhead to under $10 a head and you'll be pushing $2000

Add to that 6-12 months of a part time job and you'll be able to raise another few thousand - with some hard work over the next year you should be able to have $8000 instead of $4000 - just an idea.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sailortjk1-

A big part of the problem is his terminology. He seems to think that all small sailboats are dinghies...they're not. A Flicka is less than 20' long, but no one I know would ever consider it a dinghy...

By sponsorship, I think he means someone to pay for some of the equipment and costs... not anything more.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

There are long boats that are in the 18 to 20 foot range. Open, easy to sail or row. that would be great for this kind of aventure. You could put up a dodger if you want. Carry your sleeping bag, tent and whatnots for beach camping and some of those boats you can stretch out in with a large dodger and be out of the weather. And if needed you can put wood skeds on the bottom of the boat to protect it from those rocky beaches. I've seen those beaches, you may want to do this.
Check out the small boat magazines to find what you want.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Wow, I'm really thankful for the suggestions you have given. To address the speculation, no I have no support crew. My sponsorship includes a drysuit to minimalize exposure or for use in potentially risky sections such as Dixon Entrance. I also have lots of paddling equipment from previous trips. Check out Kokatat.com for their line of quality equipment. I lived and sailed in SE AK for 5 years. 
Originally the concept for this adventure was to do the trip in a small, open, centerboard boat. However, those I've looked at are usually big on cockpit and little on storage. I'll also admit that the luxury of a cabin, the security of a ballasted keel, and some shelter from the wind are enticing. Though a friend of mine has done the trip in a kayak, I prefer sailing. This trip is in no way "crazy". Neither is it, however, one that most would term "fun". My budget is restrictive. I love the "beef and beer" suggestion. That really makes me smile to think of it. I'd call it, "You get drunk. I go sail." Fantastic. 
I have not had time to research most of the boats that have been suggested. As I look through them I'll post more questions, I'm sure. 
BTW, I would really appreciate links to photos and specs of any boat that you recommend. Thanks,
Brian


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

There are trailerables and gullibles.


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## Johnrb (Sep 21, 2002)

I certainly suggest the small keelboat route for comfort and safety but if a centreboard dinghy is a must then the Drascombe was a good suggestion as is the Wayfarer. Here are a couple of links for the Wayfarer including one about Frank Dye who sailed his (without dog) from Scotland to Iceland and to Norway in another trip. Not something I would wish to do.

http://www.uswayfarer.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=39

http://www.allenandunwin.com/shopping/ProductDetails.aspx?ISBN=9780713675689

http://www.uswayfarer.org/


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Southeast, is not the same as the Gulf of Alaska eastern and northen coasts. I've known experienced sailors who couldn't even get out of Resurection Bay in 40+' bluewater boats. I would actually feel safer in a seagoing kayak doing that trip, than a small boat. 

Obviously, you feel some inner need to make this trip, or you wouldn't be contemplating it. My concern is that you may be minimizing the inherent danger of the area you wish to traverse.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I just realized something else that concerns me. You mention you'll be taking your dog, and also that you will be provided a drysuit to limit exposure. What about the dog? What protection will he have from exposure even in a boat with a cabin? Once he gets wet, how will he dry out?

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, just want to make sure you think it out well.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The dog has a nice PFD but no dry suit. For this reason perhaps I should limit my search to boats with cabins. The real danger in life is dying without ever having lived. As far as the kayak, I can't figure out how to get a 60 lb dog into a kayak for three months. Besides, can you say carpal tunnel syndrome?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

If, and it's a bloody big if, I was going to do that trip in a small open boat the Drascombe is the way I'd go, either Lugger or Coaster. They have made some amazing voyages, can be tented for sleeping if embayed for any length of time , easily beached if it turns so nasty that moving about is not feasible. The Coaster even has a small cuddy up front. There is part of me that would like to take one of those things and cruise the coast of NSW, Victoria and Tasmania. Probably never do it unless the Ms Wombat throws me out but it has appeal.

To echo PB's concern the dog worries me also. Anything that falls into water that cold has a pretty short life expectancy. As with the case of a brace of staffords from a previous discussion , dogs don't get to say no. On the other hand a semi camping trip , day sailing only, camping on the beach each night, dog might love it and would be a great companion.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Another question, based on your latest response. You say three months, is that one way, or round trip? Is it pushing on as far as you can go each day, or stopping to explore where you're at? Are you trying to set a distance, or just a trip?


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

The March/April issue of Woodenboat outlines the construction and sailing of an open sailboat with a centerboard from Lopez Island, Washington, to Ketchikan, Alaska. While less than 24' long, it was designed and built with coastal cruising (and beaching) in mind. They rigged a "clotheline" style mooring setup to hold the boat off while the crew camped ashore. With some rowing in light air, it took them about 6 weeks to go the 700 miles. The article refers to a website: htpp//hunterbaywoodworking.com for more information. My brother also took his J/30 on a similar trip from Seattle to Juneau. He says the engine was an absolute necessity for him in the long calms that predominate in that area in the summer.


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

> akoutdoors1 said....
> The real danger in life is dying without ever having lived.


Amen!

I think you will be fine on your journey  Many people make the trip to Alaska on the inside passage every year at this time, so you will be constantly within range of other boats if you bring your VHF.

Good luck!

Sailing it very often, I personally don't like the Catalina 22' 's performance in rougher weather, makes lots of leeway and easily overpowered.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Kacper, thanks for that. Others, My dog didn't complain when we lived and sailed in SE AK for three years. He didn't whine when we canoed for 600 miles in a canoe on the MacKenzie River. He didn't balk when we took dry runs in Juneau last summer in Stephens Passage. The dog has more water miles than a lot of people I know. I'm not asking for moral support, just for boat recommendations. I'm not trying to be nasty; I just don't need approval or logistical help. Speaking of which, what do we think of the Tanzer 22?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The Tanzer 22 is a boat with a good rep, but I don't believe it would be as rugged as a Shark, and possibly would cost more too, but of course that depends on the individual boats you find. It would likely be newer than the Shark, though they were both built into the '80s.

Both would have limited headroom, but passable accomodation for your purpose, and the Tanzer is, I believe, available in swing keel versions if that's a requirement. (Which would also make it more easily trailerable.)

The Sailquest.com site is a great guide for Canadian boats on the used market. Prices may be off a bit but the specs and details are still valid.

But I want to reinforce the concern about expecting to be able to beach such a boat with any regularity and security. The small keelboat route is going to be inherently safer - satisfying your self bailing/self righting requirements and providing shelter for you and your dog.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I've just been looking at Sailquest. They have convenient little snippits for several smaller boats. I think I am settled on a keelboat at this point. I'll use a small inflatable if necessary to reach the beach. The Tanzer was made in a swing keel version in limited numbers. That would be fantastic for the long haul from the midwest to the W coast. I like the active owners group. It has more cabin than the Typhoon, is more stable than a dinghy, drier than an open boat (we are talking about sailing along a temperate rain forest), though I'd like to research the Shark more to see how they compare. Did the Shark have a fixed keel? Which would be the better single-hander?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Where can I find cabin pics of the Shark?


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

*Westerly 22*

Your quest makes me think back to one of my first sailing trips out to sea, about 40 years ago, all the way to the Isle of Shoals (NH) in a Westerly 22. I learned a lot in those two days, and still remember what a study, righteous little boat the Westerly was. Its a bit of a curiousity, then and now, in that it has a twin keel setup, which has two benefits: fairly shallow draft and the ability to stand on the keels in shallow water. In fact, I would think you could sail one up to a rocky beach (small rocks anyway), tie it up, and let the tide go out. Here's one asking a little over your target 
http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&currencyid=100&boat_id=1422802&checked_boats=1422802&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp%3Fmanc%3D313%26uom%3D126%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26duom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26wuom%3D126%26ywbtc%3D26262%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26ps%3D20%26ps%3D20%26man%3Dwesterly%26slim%3Dquick%26so%3D0%26n%3D13%253A2%253A96611%253A96631%253A303&searchtype= but if you look around you might find one cheaper, or make 'em an offer.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Westerlys have always been solid boats, but not too common on this side of the pond.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

If you are looking at Tanzer vs Shark - Shark is a more strongly built boat. Has a distinctive hook-shaped fixed keel, and is much quicker than the Tanzer. A lot of the Sharks have had interior modifications, so the pictures you find may nnot be truly representative. You should be able to get a good one for about 8000 Cdn on a trailer. Lots of them on the Great Lakes...

http://sharkforsale.50megs.com/


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

akoutdoors1 said:


> Kacper, thanks for that. Others, My dog didn't complain when we lived and sailed in SE AK for three years. He didn't whine when we canoed for 600 miles in a canoe on the MacKenzie River. He didn't balk when we took dry runs in Juneau last summer in Stephens Passage. The dog has more water miles than a lot of people I know. I'm not asking for moral support, just for boat recommendations. I'm not trying to be nasty; I just don't need approval or logistical help. Speaking of which, what do we think of the Tanzer 22?


Explanation re the pooch. I was just a bit worried about such cold water and an open boat. However, reading in the thread it's obvious you are not obsessed with an open boat so my concerns disappear. My old mutt never baulked either, she loved the water and being on it. Coastal or inshore stuff they are cool on board.

I have to say that one of my dreams is to do that run and I guess if I finally get there it will be in a keel boat that's sailed from Australia but the thought of doing it in something like a Drascombe gets me quite excited. In fact I think I'd rather do it in that than a similar size keel boat.


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## Wayne25 (Jul 26, 2006)

How about one of these

















20" draft with 300 # centerboard up, 1620# ballast, double lower shrouds, well made. In your price range with trailer.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

AK

Further to Sailormann, Sharks command much higher prices back east than they do here on the West Coast. They are more recognized there.

The one in the link he provided is a really nice one, the interior on ours was somewhat different but about the same space. We had a mini galley on either side, at the bulkhead as shown in the pics.

I think it's safe to say that the Shark (yes, fixed keel) would be the easier and safer singlehander. She's shoal enough that trailer lauching on most ramps would be fine, and narrow beamed (less than 7') so no highway width issues either.

There is a good possibility of finding an inexpensive example here, though of course some work/money will probably be needed to make her ready for your adventure.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I would second the get this months WoodenBoat magizine, in it is a 23' open sail boat that made the trip you are talking about. Also for the life of me, I can not remember the race, but they use open boats in the 15-25' range, they must be sail or rowed. Types used are whitehalls, wherry's IIRC Drascomb lugger style design boats.

Gig Harbor Boats out of Gig Harbor Wa of all places, www.ghboats.com has one of there boats used in the open dinghy race I an thinking of. IIRC it comes out of england or norway/sweden. There is a version of it in the US and BC san juans too.

Caladonia Yawls would be another boat option, assuming again, you are trying to do this in an open deck boat.

If this is not what you are trying to do, as far as boat design. then a Cat 22, my favorite in this size, and older San Juan 21, altho the west wight potter would be my first choice in cabin style sailboats. Clark, the maker of san juans, built a few 21's for charter in Florida, the hull was made 1/2" thick instead of the norma 3/8" for grounding in the keys. If one could figure out what hull #'s these were, chase on down, this would be one of the better boats for your purpose. One comercially built to get grounded!

Good luck.

marty


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Boat race is called a RAID. A website to look at one boat involved
www.whitehallatraidfinland.com

This might give you some ideas on boats that will work in the open or dinghy style if you will.

marty


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

blt2ski-

He doesn't want an open boat... are you not reading this thread???


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Cal 25 would work nicely


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

As mentioned, an open boat will work, natives were doing it in dugout cedar canoes way before us white folks showed up! Also, if this is done in the summer months, this are has a "pacific high" which keeps thing sunny, and wind/waves to a minimum vs winter months.

I would personally not call a shark beachable, with 3' of draft then a centerboard. One would want a boat without some kind of major skeg etc to trully beach a boat around here. Otherwise with 10-12' tide changes, you will be stuck for a period of time.

Marty


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I think the requirments have changed since the original post.
We have moved on the smaller sized boats with keels and a cabin.
Correct?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Actually, the requirements are pretty much the same... the OP's knowledge of boat descriptions is evolving...  

Basically, all he's really looking for a small sailboat with a cabin, that is very seaworthy, and capable of short open water passages in some relatively unfriendly waters, that can sustain a man, a medium size dog and 400 lbs. of gear, and has good ground tackle, so he can anchor and use a dinghy to get to/from shore to make a long exploration of the Inside Passage to Alaska. And it has to be trailerable, and affordable, in good condition, with a projected budget of $4000.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I just read a good article in the March/April 2007 issue of This Old Boat titled "Taking the groud". It described a number of beachable boats unsed in England. Perhaps this might be somthhing to review.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

rheaton-

Not really applicable for this situation... The ground in the area of Alaska is mostly very rocky and very unforgiving to boats, steel ones possibly excepted... You don't want to intentionally go aground there if at all avoidable. England is mostly muddy tidal flats... or estuaries.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

OK, TRhanks for the suggestions. I have a feeling that many would like to do a similar trip. I'm glad to share this dream with so many. 
Here's where I am now; 
I live near the Grand Lake of the Cherokees in Oklahooooooma (OK). This is where I'll sail and learn my new boat's characteristics. I have two years to learn the boat before I (this is an important piece) trailer the boat to the NW (Prob Prince Rupert, maybe Victoria) to begin the trip. I do not have time (or the desire really) to build a boat. That would be a great, holistic almost, way to do the trip but I don't have enough years to do it. 

New Luggers cost 8,000 Euros. Not to mention shipping. Not to mention wet dog and no shelter from the rain. Not to mention no ballast. Those are out. 

"Trailerabliity" excludes many boats over 22 ft. I've been looking at 22s that seem on the upper end of what my GMC Jimmy will handle safely. Most bigger boats don't come with trailers. Many trailers I've seen for 22 footers are sketchy at best.

As far as the Shark, they seem to have a strong following. Problem: I haven't seen one anywhere near my budget. In fact, I can find very few for sale at all. I haven't been able to find any interior pics of them. And at 24 ft... see above. 

Wayne 25, What is that boat? It looks like a Catalina 22 but for the hand rails. Please send me a PM. 

I'll check out the San Juan 21 in the mean time. 

Thanks sailingdog for the synopsis. That's accurate. As far as the English (two keel) boats- they seem to be more rare, expensive, and from what I've read, of dubious performance.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Actually, many of the Westerly brand of boats had twin keels and they have crossed oceans... 
*
I would recommend that you get some time sailing in an ocean. * The conditions you will generally find on an inland lake are not the same as those you will find in the Pacific. Tides, tidal currents, and swell are things you have to deal with on a regular basis when sailing on an ocean, that you won't generally see on a lake. _*It would be a big mistake to think that you can fully prepare yourself by sailing on a lake for a fairly lengthy and possibly dangerous ocean journey.,* _


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I am not seeking info about the area. I repeat, I am NOT seeking info about the Inside Passage. Neither do I need logistical help. 
I'd like more suggestions on boats though. Any leads on the Shark would be appreciated.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

akoutdoors1 said:


> I am not seeking info about the area. I repeat, I am NOT seeking info about the Inside Passage. Neither do I need logistical help.
> I'd like more suggestions on boats though. Any leads on the Shark would be appreciated.


I wasn't giving you info on the Inside Passage, or the area, or providing logistical help. *I was giving you advice about how to go about doing this without risking your life unnecessarily. *

Being improperly prepared, then you'll probably end up costing the taxpayers of the US and Canada a lot of money for an expensive SAR effort.

Again, I will repeat what I said earlier-*




I would recommend that you get some time sailing in an ocean.

Click to expand...

*


> The conditions you will generally find on an inland lake are not the same as those you will find in the Pacific. Tides, tidal currents, and swell are things you have to deal with on a regular basis when sailing on an ocean, that you won't generally see on a lake. _*It would be a big mistake to think that you can fully prepare yourself by sailing on a lake for a fairly lengthy and possibly dangerous ocean journey.*_


If you choose to be an idiot... fine... be one... but please don't trigger an EPIRB and expect the USCG and CCG to risk their lives saving you.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

akoutdoors1 said:


> I am not seeking info about the area. I repeat, I am NOT seeking info about the Inside Passage. Neither do I need logistical help.
> I'd like more suggestions on boats though. Any leads on the Shark would be appreciated.


Sharks were built in Ontario for 30 years or so. Most are still here and still in use. They are priced from "you haul it away" to $8,000 in minty racing condition. Here's two links: http://sailquest.com/market/models/shark.htm
and the Canadian Shark Association site: http://www.shark24.org/intro.htm

Everything Shark is here, plus under "Sharks for sale", I counted a dozen and then lost interest. There are 29 Sharks at my club, some in absolutely mint condition, and four of them are used for adult sail training, or you can join "the Shark club" for $10/year and take any of them out for a ride. Every year two or three of them change hands, so let's say that on Lake Ontario, there's no shortage.

Oh, and they are all daysailers craned into the water from trailers one big guy or two regular guys can push into position. A Jimmy would have no problem.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Valiente, thanks for the link. 
Sailingdog, bugger off. Do you know my experience? That I lived aboard and sailed a 23 footer for years in Juneau and I've sailed everything from a sailing canoe to a 40 ft ketch in the Inside Passage? That I lived in Sitka and sailed outside. No, you don't know. Have you even been there? But you tell me what I'm capable of? I'll say it again for you: I'm NOT looking for approval or recommendations about anything but a model boat. Go read a dictionary. Quit clogging up my post with this ignorance.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Following up on what Valiente said...you make some phone calls - hop in your Jimmy and drive up here to Ontario - look at as many boats as you can. Pick three that you like, make offers, go downtown and crash for a couple of days, then call back the owners and see which one is ready to take your offer. Hook the trailer to your Jimmy and take it home with you...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

akoutdoors1 said:


> Valiente, thanks for the link.
> Sailingdog, bugger off. Do you know my experience? That I lived aboard and sailed a 23 footer for years in Juneau and I've sailed everything from a sailing canoe to a 40 ft ketch in the Inside Passage? That I lived in Sitka and sailed outside. No, you don't know. Have you even been there? But you tell me what I'm capable of? I'll say it again for you: I'm NOT looking for approval or recommendations about anything but a model boat. Go read a dictionary. Quit clogging up my post with this ignorance.


Well, excuse me for worrying about your safety. Go bugger yourself!

You didn't even know the difference between a sailing dinghy and a keelboat. In your original post you didn't sound much like a person with any previous sailing experience.

Saying that you're going to prepare for a sail up the Inside Passage by sailing on an inland lake just sounded rather foolish to me... especially given the lack of any indication of previous sailing experience or knowledge.

*IMHO, copping an attitude like that shows a level of maturity incompatible with doing a trip up the inside passage. Up until my most recent post, I was sincerely trying to help the people on this forum give you the best advice possible, and tried to clarify what your intentions were, far more clearly than you were capable of doing. *

To quote one of your previous posts:



> Thanks sailingdog for the synopsis. That's accurate.


 * 
I'd definitely say that you're an ingrateful ass.
*


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

OK. You win. 

Thanks all, for your input and patience. After I've done some more research, I'll start another post asking for input on some particular models that have been suggested. 
Cheers


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you're looking to trailer it, I'd recommend concentrating on one of the centerboard boats rather than a full-keel design, as they're far more likely to have a trailer. While I've seen some full-keel designs with trailers—they tend to be a bit on the rare side, and they often have problems at many boat ramps and may require a travellift to be put in the water, which isn't generally the case with the CB boats.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One magazine that might be of use to you is Small Craft Advisor. They also have a website:

http://www.smallcraftadvisor.com/

They tend to cover a lot of different types of small boats, from sailing canoes to West Wight Potters.... Their forum, while significantly less sophisticated than Sailnet's may have some good information regarding smaller craft than are usually discussed here. You can access it at:

http://members3.boardhost.com/SCABoard/


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Sailormann said:


> Following up on what Valiente said...you make some phone calls - hop in your Jimmy and drive up here to Ontario - look at as many boats as you can. Pick three that you like, make offers, go downtown and crash for a couple of days, then call back the owners and see which one is ready to take your offer. Hook the trailer to your Jimmy and take it home with you...


What he said. I don't know the Customs and tax deal with buying a Canadian boat, but Sharks are so frequently sold hereabouts that a lot of people don't even bother with surveys...because the boat's flaws are already known and listed on various Shark-tracking websites! (Not that I would ever buy a boat without a survey, but more than most models, the Sharks are "known quantities", despite their advanced age).

But I do know that I've seen people in my club trade or sell them on a handshake and a trailer hitch, so to speak, such is the "clubbiness" of the Shark owning fraternity.

A boat outside your consideration that has also caught on like wildfire at my club is the 2.4 metre class. Like the Martin 16, it's a "go-kart" widely used by disabled sailors, but for some reason (it appears to be too much fun, to judge by the way it flips around in a breeze), my club has more than 20 now, from just two or three five years ago, and mostly owned by able-bodied cruisers as their second "drop it and sail" boat.

http://www.24metre.org.uk/3.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.4_Metre_(keelboat)

Sometimes old classes like Star or 505 fleets get started that way: one guy gets a good one and sails it properly, and then everyone piles on to make a fleet.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

ak,

If you can get ahold of the winter 2006 issue of Boatworks, there is a list of 14 boats availible under 10K. The smaller ones under 25' or so will all work for what you have in mind, some better than tohers, such as the cal 20 and 25, santana 22, Hunter 23 and probably the best cruiser of the bunch, but most expensive a Compac 23. 

There are two J-boats, a 22 and 24, I would rule them out as they are mostly for racing, not real good cruisers oriented boats for what you have in mind. 

The winter 07 issue has 15 boats that can be had for under 20K, a good list too to paruse and see what may or may not work.

Good luck on your search

Marty


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Something that hasn't been mentioned to this point is that you're going to need something that can carry quite a bit of ground tackle. Beaching isn't always practiable, and depths there can be quite deep. With the amount of rock there, you'll probably need a fair amount of chain on any rode you use. Which means a lot of weight in a 22-25 foot boat.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

John-

Didn't you see akoutdoors1's earlier post:



> I am not seeking info about the area. I repeat, I am NOT seeking info about the Inside Passage. Neither do I need logistical help.
> I'd like more suggestions on boats though. Any leads on the Shark would be appreciated.


He just wants advice on boats and funding... but then again he seems to be a bit of a wanker... actually a full-blown wanker...


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I would think that the amount of ground tackle that could be carried is germaine to the boat. Hence, my suggestion to think about ground tackle. A 22 foot boat with a 100' of 1/4" Hi-Test in the bow could be just a tad unbalanced, no? Even a couple 100 feet of 1/2" nylon would be significant in a boat that size. And given the shoreline, once you are north of Juneau, it starts to get rather fijord like. So it's not unlikely to need 300' of rode.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Not disagreeing with you at all John, and fully agree that having to consider the ability to carry ground tackle sufficient for that coast is important when looking at boats. But he's really a bit arrogant about what he knows.. especially since he didn't know the difference between a sailing dinghy, cabin boat, and keelboat...


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Of course, if he was open to suggestion, one might suggest that with a 3 month time frame and a trailerable boat, he could arrange to have the truck and trailer moved to Haines, making it a one way trip, thereby, giving him twice as much time to explore. But, since he doesn't want any suggestion, I won't make it. Or even 2 months to Haines and then a month for exploring some of the magnificent lakes along the Alcan.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I like your suggestion... but getting the truck and trailer to Haines has some serious logistical problems...since there isn't a whole lot of public transportation up there, and his resources sound pretty limited, by the budget he has for the boat, and the fact that he's looking for sponsors.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I know. A good two days by car from Prince Rupert to Haines. Was probably mostly wishful thinking on my part.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Maybe the arrogant, ass-full of crap could leave his boat with friends in Juneau until the following summer. One thing is for sure- he doesn't know the difference between a dinghy and a keelboat. Or, wait, does he? I think I'll re-read the post and see. Seems like he wrote dinghy OR keelboat in that original post. He's doubtless going to go hurt his little self in the big, bad ocean anyway. I'm much smarter than he is. I have made that judgement and I'm always right. That's why I sit behind my computer for hours a day. That is what the REAL salts do! We tell people what they know even though they don't know what they know. 
While I'm thinking out loud I should probably congradulate some arrogant wanker who finished first across the line and best time this weekend in the warm up race at the local lake. He pulled it of without having any maturity and not knowing the difference between a keelboat and a dinghy. Doubtless it was luck. I'm sure he has no skill. Not like me. I'm the boss of sailnet. Look at all my posts where I've given unsolicited advice- that proves it. 
Well I think I'll go post a bunch of unwanted messages on other peoples posts. That's my little territorial pissing I like to do.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Sorry folks, sometimes my dog gets on here and rants. He needs therapy.
My logistics are worked out. If I run into any trouble with them, I'll ask. I really will. Of course, I'll ask about something like how much denatured alchohol to bring and, instead, someone will tell me I'm irresponsible because I should take two stocking caps.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

AK...come on man...you posted on the internet and asked for advice. You got some good and some comments you don't like. What did you expect?


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## Neises (Feb 24, 2007)

Here's an inspirational story for ya, sailing Seattle to Alaska by outrigger canoe.

To Cuba (almost) is a good one too.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'm not suggesting you don't do it, but I sure as hell am curious about WHY you would want to do it....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

That is a legitimate question. Why climb the mountain? Why sail the Inside Passage. Not that there is much comparison in the risk between the two ventures- just making an observation. I'll tell you why and I hope that you understand it. I want to do it for the whales, bears, seals, sunsets, coves, waves, smells, friends, experiences, sounds, calms and storms. I want to do it for the salt air and the loamy earth, for the clinking of the rigging and the heel of the hull, for the smell of the gear after two months out; it stinks but it is OK because there is a satisfaction of knowing that it is an earned stink and there is noone around to tell you it stinks or to make you feel self-conscious for it. I want to do it for the times when a laugh comes from nothing at all... just the thrill of being alive and having made it so far. I want to do it for the long evenings with a single memory- to ruminate and watch the sun, to not speak for a day and a half. I want to do it because the last three months of my life have passed like three minutes and I don't remember most of it, but I remember moments on other trips as though I'm in them now. I want to do it because it horrifies me and I know when I finish that I'll look at myself in the mirror and I'll recognize something there that I didn't see before. 
However, it is better to ask "when will I" instead of "why would you"?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Well, I'll give you this: You'll get a lot closer to nature on a well-found 24 footer than most would on a 40 footer.

You should read Jonathan Raban. You already sound like him (that's a compliment, by the way!)

Amazon.com: Passage to Juneau: A Sea and Its Meanings: Books: Jonathan Raban


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I would reiterate my vote for a Cal 21'. I own one and, from what you have described as your needs I would think it would be perfect. It is not as commonly found as the 20' with a fixed keel, but sails well and draws about 18" with the keel up. probably find one easiest on the west coast or great lakes. I bought mine, in good condition, for just over $2000, with trailer. I believe it would be dog friendly as well. It weighs only 1100 lbs, 400 of which is in the swing keel. With the keel pinned, the boat is self-righting. It has a good solid fiberglas hull. And you would have much better shelter than on the lugger. There's a fair amount of info about on the boat. If you need any sources, PM me. Good luck

I would second the notion of checking out Small Boat Advisor


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

AK:

Don't know if you're still lurking, or still considering that trip, but here is a locally (Vancouver BC) available Shark 24, $1900 CDN needs some interior TLC with a trailer(?) maybe.

24 Foot Sail Boat


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

He's probably gotten lost on the lake in Kansas that he was going to be practicing on...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

sailingdog said:


> He's probably gotten lost on the lake in Kansas that he was going to be practicing on...


Nasty, nasty!!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Faster said:


> Nasty, nasty!!!


I notice you didn't disagree..


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I read this thread and can see why there is so much interest and response. It is a difficult puzzle to figure out.

We have limited funds, need to be able to "beach" the vessel, needs to handle challenging waters, shelter for one sailor and dog and enough room to make provisions for a few months. That is certainly a tall order.

Several boats were already mentioned. I like the Seafarer 24, the Pearson 23, Catalina 22, O'Day mariner 19, and the Cape Dory Typhoon. 

The problem with the Typhoon and Pearson is the 3' draft which becomes difficult to reach shore without getting wet. Therefore, the Catalina with a 2' draft and dagger board makes the most sense. The Catalina also has decent room below for storage and living area for crew and dog. 

If I were to find the right boat for this trip, it wouldn't be the Catalina only because I would have more resources in my budget for buying a better boat.

No matter what boat you buy, at the price you want to pay, it will not be in very good shape. It will take your own work to make her right and unfortunately some money as well. You may need new wire for rigging and some decent sails. The sails you can find pretty cheap used from places like Bacon in Annapolis. The rest of the work has to be your own to make it affordable.

All the boats mentioned were NOT designed for the purpose you are going to put them through (except the Typhoon) but the inside passages will be fine. The open waters are where you will need to determine IDEAL weather conditions without the advantage of weather communication.

You best start your own study of meteorology. You will need to know how to assess what the sky is telling you by wind, clouds, and hopefully some type of barometer on board. (some modern watches come with barometers made by Casio). You must find ways to minimize the risks you are taking so that this journey becomes a memory that you will cherish for the next 50 years. Try your best not to make it your last adventure.

A man named Robert Manry crossed the Atlantic ocean solo in 1965 on a 13' boat. He lived in Cleveland, Ohio and had little sailing experience but he was prepared.

Don


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Drascombe Lugger, Coaster or Longboat?

Drascombe Association - About Drascombes


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## RockoDelray (Apr 9, 2007)

How about one of the new Macgregors? I think they are beachable and have water ballast and a center board and I believe they point ok.

You don't have to put a big outboard on it. It would provide pretty much what you are looking for and even though the rig is very light I have heard they can take alot more than it seems they can. 

Rocko


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

*A really cheap shark*

If you are still considering a Shark, there is one that has been abandoned at Langley, WA that could probably had for next to nothing.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

akoutdoors1 said:


> Sorry folks, sometimes my dog gets on here and rants. He needs therapy.
> My logistics are worked out. If I run into any trouble with them, I'll ask. I really will. Of course, I'll ask about something like how much denatured alchohol to bring and, instead, someone will tell me I'm irresponsible because I should take two stocking caps.


Actually I would recommend buying some high proof everclear instead of denatured alcholol, works just as well and isn't poison. Heck you can drink it. Unforunately it's not available in Washington state, but I think you can get it in BC?


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

Cape Cod Goldeneye will do everything you want except easy beaching. You will have to step off into the water.
Goldeneye


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

check out this little beauty


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## roland50 (Aug 9, 2001)

well from what i've read your gona learn to sail as you go on the trip, good for you, my first boat was a 1971 veture small cabin, 600 lbs swing keel,with a 9.9 merc out board, i watched sail lesons vidioes and went out on the water, 
off coast of florida, and survived happily, i moved up to a 85 mac 25' heavier keel swing also good in 18 inches of water and beaching,enough styrofoan to float it with hull blown out [suposedly if it all still there] , comfy to live in,for 3mo. if your an adventurer as you seem to be, there available with trailers and in your bugetin winter time try ebay, a strong 1/2 ton pick up will pull it, try to sail a few weekend b4 you go out for 3 months solo, good luck


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## karlheinz (May 28, 2000)

worth a look at, Sea Pearl, or a Drascombe would be the best choice I think.


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## Sasha_V (Feb 28, 2004)

The endeavour 24 would do it for you...And be within your budget...But the nearest one to you is hard to find, and the ones that are for sale are here in Australia.

I think you need to seriously consider the notion of beachable vs keelboat. A keelboat will do all the other stuff you want better, and given the nature of the beaches and the isolation up there, I would not be ina hurry to beach my only means of transport, given that a change int he weather could beat the crap out of it in very short order and reduce it to confetti on the beach while I stood helplessy by.

Of course, anchoring your only means of transport and going dinghying into land when you are single handing and there is no source of help should you get flipped int he dinghy or just have ti damaged on rocks or drift away because you got carelkess is also a bit fraught.


Still, all in all, I would advise getting a boat that is competent and uncompromising at sailing (points the highest into the wind being the main consideration for sailing in the area you are describing) and then park it in safe_is) deep_is) water when you want to dinghy over to land.

A notion to play with that a friend recently came up with for his dinghy (after rupturing it 18 different times on the sharp shale of his beach) was to inflate the dinghy with two-part expanding foam. It made the dinghy a bit heavier (about 10kg more) but it now doesn't give a damn about running onto sharp rocks, and since he tows it with the bow up and out of the water tied to the pushpit, the fact it no longer deflates makes no difference at all.

Sasha


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Roland, Karl and Sasha-

Believe the guy has bought a boat, since he posted a thread more recent than this one about his new purchase.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I don't recall, but has anyone mentioned twin keels or bilger type sailboat...seeing beachable keeps coming up. 
Just one note on using one, bring your dingy to the hightide mark when embarking on shore...make sure boat is anchored...Make sure dingy is tied up, preferable to the boat as well.
Or you add poop  dudty to your daily chores. just take a rubber mat, bring out to where your dog normaly goes, rub in some fresh stuff, clean, bring to boat and when he/she needs to go bad enough, he'll be up on that mat...you know the one you have to clean now.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I guess the way that I am reading this, your goal is to camp cruise, essentially pulling up on a beach to sleep at night. It sounds to me like you have an extremely limited budget and you are wrestling with the trade off between being able to beach the boat, and having some additional safety in the form of a ballasted keel. I can't think of any keel boat that is truely capable of being beached and slept on. I can only really think of one boat that would meet the criteria of being a truely beachable cruiser in your price range, and offering sufficient seaworthiness for what you are trying to do, and that would be the old O'day Mariner, which was a centerboard, (some were built with fixed keels used on the Rhodes 19 but that won't work for beaching) overnighter version of the Rhodes 19. You would need to look for one that has buoyancy tanks and a self bailing cockpit, which the earliest ones lacked. (Stuart Marine also built the Mariner as well) Here's an Oday version in Ohio

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...units=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=59089&url=

If you went with the Mariner you would need to rework the sail plan so that ou can easily reef and depower the sails in building conditions. Wilderness cruising like you are proposing takes a lot of sailing skill and careful preparation.

The other obstacle with beach cruising a boat this size is getting it safely up above the tide line and then back down into the water when you were ready to go. I have done a little beach cruising. It can be fun but tricky. You always seem to be wet. Boom tents help expand living space at night and modern waterproof bags help a lot.

Another way to go would be to build your own small cruiser. Phil Bolger and Charlie Wittholz both designed small plywood catboats that would work well for what you wish to do but which probably cost more to build and equip than your budget would permit, even if you used construction grade materials and did the work yourself.

Good luck, Sounds like a great adventure....
Jeff


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Realizing this is a stale thread, but...

IF I were planning this adventure -- and an adventure means uncertain outcomes with consequences for failure -- I might look very closely at a Mongomery. Lyle Hess seriously over-designed his boats. Even the 17 footer carries 600 lbs of ballast; they are beamy, therefore roomy; and the shoal keel/centerboard draws under 2'.

Can be had for your $4000 budget. Slow, but solid as can be.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hello all, SailingDog is right. I did buy a Nordica 20. Termed "the world's smallest cruising boats". I've been transorting, rigging, painting, and sailing her, thus the long absence from the post. The Nordica is really exceeding my expectations so far. There is a site dedicated to these boats. It is worth checking out. I bought one well maintained in excellent condition for under $4000 with trailer in Michigan. 
The boat is full keeled with 1000lbs of ballast. It has a full cabin, small cockpit, canoe stern, rode locker and small outboard. It points well and sails stiff though single handing is a chore until I get lines run aft. 
The boat is less extreme (minimalist) than what I originally considered though it is far less boat than most would use I suppose. I've had it out a lot now and am learning her quirks. She heels to 30 in beam gusts of 30kts but goes over slowly and stands up quickly. Lovely boat. 
Thanks again for all of the recommendations. 
Cheers
Brian


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Try sailnet.com, defender.com, mauriprosailing.com, hamiltonmarine.com to start with. 

Defender has excellent prices on most sailing gear, but sailnet and MPS are both pretty good too. HM is primarily a commercial fishing vendor, but has great prices on safety gear.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Glad to hear you are enjoying the N20 Brian.
I sailed a N16 for years and picked up a 20 early Sept.
I'm bustin a nut to get her ready for next season.

Leo May posted pics of mine in the project area of the dedicated site.
Look for "Cap'n Dan" !!


If you have the time and a digi, send some pics to me at
horizons -at- on -dot- aibn -dot- com


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

i'll repeat what has been said. there's alaska and there's alaska. you've been aboard in alaska, but the inside passage is long, isolated, and the waters up there can be deadly. but you're obviously an adventurer so good luck to you, just make sure you research where you are going.

another option no one has mentioned is a thunderbird. these boats have been made since the 60's and are fantastic boats. more of a racer than cruiser, but they are fast, safe and seaworthy, and at 26 feet have room enough below for all the gear you'll need plus you and dog, and if you get a wooden one they go very inexpensively (i bought mine for 2 grand and paid too much).


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