# I'm just a poor boy. Is this just fantasy? please advise.



## AKsteve (Jan 11, 2010)

Hello everybody, greetings from Fairbanks, Alaska. My dilemma is this: I am enthralled by the sea, sailing and s.c.u.b.a. specifically, but I live in the interior of Alaska, quite a contradiction I know. Now that my college career is finished my goal is to buy a 30'+ sailboat good for coastal cruising, I don't need or expect anything fancy- just a sound hull, well maintained rigging, and a reliable diesel. For the past four years i've been living in a small cabin in the woods with no running water (anyone ever use an outhouse when it's -40 degrees Fahrenheit?- not fun.) so in some respects living aboard a boat would be an upgrade to my living standards e.g. working head, shower, sink. 
I have a relatively small amount of money saved ($15,000), I know in the boat market this is an insubstantial amount of money. I have been casually shopping for boats online and there seems to be quite a few old boats that meet my basic requirements for under $15,000 dollars.

Here is my question to you, the sailnet community, do I take my money, go walk the docks and buy a 30 year old boat that will undoubtedly need to have work put into it (which wouldn't surprise or discourage me) and start my adventure OR do I continue to work and save in the traditional manner until I can afford a newer/bigger/better boat? Is it reasonable to expect a 30' boat for under $15,000 to be sailable? Any advice, suggestions, or slaps in the face to bring be back to reality would be greatly appreciated! Thanks for reading! -Steve A. in AK


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

You will be able to find a boat that fits your requirements if you're prepared to do a little work (most likely) and prepared to live with all that goes with buying a relatively old boat. Also I'm assuming you're not planning to sail to Australia anytime soon. If you're lucky you'll find one that has not been neglected and has primarily cosmetic issues. The fact that it sounds like you won't be really needing all the "bells and whistles" right off will help.

Whether you can find the boat you want in your Northern area I couldn't say, but certainly walking some docks will tell you that soon enough.

Here's a link to a Yachtworld search for 28-30 footers up to $13K (to leave you some spending money) here in the PNW.

(Sail) Boats For Sale

But you'll need to shop carefully with eyes wide open, be sure to get any boat you like properly surveyed before handing over any serious money.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

You may want to first find out if you like sailing... the dream is often way better then the reality. I'd suggest you get friendly and offer to crew on some boats that are sailed by owners on a regular basis too.


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## AKsteve (Jan 11, 2010)

Denise- I absolutely love sailing! I learned on Lasers and Hobie cats off of Catalina when I was a teen and it's been my dream to own a larger boat ever since. I attended a commercial diving school in Wilmington, Ca and lived on a cal 25, that I purchased cheaply, for about 18 months. Moved to Fairbanks to attend the university here, ready to get out of the arctic!


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## AKsteve (Jan 11, 2010)

Faster- The searches i've done online have resulted in only a handful of sailboats in Alaska. I assumed I would have to travel to a coastal city in the lower 48 to do any serious shopping. I haven't narrowed my search by location, just price. I'm not sure what else I should be looking for in a boat as far as displacement, keel depth, sail area...? to safely cruise the coasts of the Americas.


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## tager (Nov 21, 2008)

It depends which coasts, some are friendlier than others. You will get the most for your money either in Florida, or in the Northeast. The boats are more expensive on the West coast. If you are really serious about leaving it all behind, it would be cheapest to go to Florida. I would recommend looking for something less than 30 feet, or at least extremely simple if it is 30 feet. The cost to maintain a 30 footer is much more than the cost to maintain even a 27 footer. If you have a smaller, more manageable boat, it will be a well equipped pleasure, rather than a sparsely equipped monster. 

It will be slower, and you will have less space. If speed and space are your things, consider motorboats.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

He's just a poor boy, from a poor family...

So do both- look for the right boat, and save.
But spend some money first and go back to school. Buy Don Casey's book "This Old Boat" at a bare minimum, and read at least the first three chapters. Spend some time and read the "boast buying tips" thread here. Do this, and you will have completed boat-buying 101. 

You will be able to save a little more cash, because it will take you a couple of months to find the BEST boat you can for the budget you have. Put quality first,and worry about length second. $15 000 will buy you a decent older 27-30' boat, so keep walking the docks, checking the web, and put up some wanted signs and a wanted ad on craigslist, and spend the next few months looking. I personally like taking the proactive approach by placing "wanted" ads everywhere. Instead of looking at boats that may or may not have been on the market for months and years, wasting your time following up on some broker's overly optimistic description of an unsaleable project, you often get calls from people who have no actively listed their boats yet, which allows you to set the price, often saving you some decent $$$.


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## bloodhunter (May 5, 2009)

AKSteve,
Concur with tager that the east coast is the place where you'll find the best buys. Not only Florida but New England and the Chesapeake also have lots of boats available. 
What you have in hand should be enough to get a boat that meets your requirements with enough left for enhancements and repairs so long as you do most of the work yourself. 
My suggestion to you is after you've done enough looking through the ads for used boats to haver an idea of what you might be interested in, go on line and find any associations for these boats and any blog by people who've purchased/restored/sailed them. Suspect you'll find a lot of that kind of info right here on SailNet. Those should give you a good idea of what you might be getting into and what you might want to avoid before you start looking. 
Finally, I don't think you should wait until you've saved enough for a bigger/newer boat. Go for your dream now cause fact is you'll never have 'enough'.


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## canadianseamonkey (Sep 4, 2006)

Also remember...newer doesn't mean better. The fiberglass on many new boats is paper thin....scares the hell out of me. Plenty of Catalina 30's out there for less than what you want to pay. Just find a boat that you are happy with.

Good luck.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

There are a lot of good boats out there in your price range but I would think that it would be next to impossible to live year round on a small sailboat in Alaska. I can't imagine that you can store a boat in the water in winter in Alaska and so many of the important life supporting systems will not operate. But more to the point, even a log cabin has more insulation value than a fiberglass boat, making whatever heat source that you have go much further in terms of making life liveable. Small boats without cored hulls have almost no insulation value at all, and so are very hard to keep comfortable. 

The one thing that I will say in response to Candianseamonkey's comment is that old certainly does not mean better. In my experience, newer boats are way better built than the boats of yore, and frankly are sturdier (and less paper thin) than many, if not most of the production boats of the 1970's and early 1980's. 

For example, CSM's example of the Catalina 30, there are few modern boats (say 20 or so years old) that were more paper thin and poorly put together than the older Catalina 30's. The oil canning of the hull can be heard with almost every wave, and over time fiberglass is greatly weakened by fatigue that come with that kind of repetative flexure.

In the past 20 or so years, hull structural engineering, construction techniques, and the general build quality of the systems have come a very long way. In this modern period, there has been an increased awareness of the need for developing and adhering to safe construction standards, standard which did not even exist before the mid-1980's. 

There is a misconception that earlier boats were heavier and better built. The studies and my direct experience actually working on these older designs says that this simply is not the case. 

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Spare him his life from this monstrosity!

Hey AK - welcome to SN dude. Anyone that kicks it off with "Bohemian Rhapsody" has got immediate respect.

Bismillah! No, we will not let you go!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Doesn't seem (to me) to make much sense for AK to be buying a $10-15K boat on the East Coast if he'll need to ship it to the West. The costs of trucking will be half again or more of the original price... not much economy there.

There should be acceptable vessels available between the Puget Sound area and Alaska, even Prince Rupert would be a place to have a good look - any further away and it wouldn't be advisable to try to sail the boat "home" to Alaska.

Of course, AK, if you're planning to move to Florida or other points south and east that's a different story!


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## canadianseamonkey (Sep 4, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> The one thing that I will say in response to Candianseamonkey's comment is that old certainly does not mean better. In my experience, newer boats are way better built than the boats of yore, and frankly are sturdier (and less paper thin) than many, if not most of the production boats of the 1970's and early 1980's.
> 
> For example, CSM's example of the Catalina 30, there are few modern boats (say 20 or so years old) that were more paper thin and poorly put together than the older Catalina 30's. The oil canning of the hull can be heard with almost every wave, and over time fiberglass is greatly weakened by fatigue that come with that kind of repetative flexure.
> 
> ...


Jeff, wow! I've never heard anybody say that today's fiberglass is applied thicker than in the '70s. It's quite the opposite actually. The fiberglass back then was layed up in multiple layers as the builders didn't really know the strength of the material at that point. Many of today's sailboats hulls are so thin that, when sitting inside you can see the silouhettes of people on the docks. Also, I'm not a big Catalina fan, but given the OP's budget, it's a good fit and just an example. I'll stick with my good old boat, thanks.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

You see the statement a lot that "Early boat builders did not know how strong fiberglass was and so made it very thick." Horse Feathers! This is just plain bunk. 

During WW II the US federal government had done a lot of research on fiberglass and the information was widely available by the later 1950's and 1960's. As a kid in the 1960's, I had detailed literature on fiberglass that pretty clearly analyzed its properties and which included accepted design approaches including published strength and flexure values. 
Guys like Carl Alberg, who was working for the government designing fiberglass ammo boxes when he was hired by the Pearsons to design the Triton, knew exactly what fiberglass would do. 

They knew that the e-glass of that era was pretty poor quality and was especially prone to flexing and to fatigue. They attempted to design fiberglass boats to be as stiff as wooden boats of the era. This took a lot of thickness since F.G. was very flexible compared to wood. This was especially true on a pound for pound basis. They also knew that if the boats were not as stiff as wood, there would be major fatigue problems. This put early designers in a bind. If they made the glass boats as thick as a wooden planked hull they would be impossibly heavy. If they did not, fatigue would condemn them to a short life. 

They mostly chose to compromise. By that I mean they chose to do boats that were not as stiff as the wooden boats they replaced but were heavier. Early glass interpretations of wooden boats were generally heavier and carried less ballast than their wooden counterparts. They were much stronger in bending but not as stiff. As fatigue took place some of these early glass boats became even more flexible which leads to more fatigue, which can lead to a significant reduction in strength.

A large amount of flexure, as is typical in these older boats, was a real problem over the life of the boat. Fiberglass hates to be flexed. Fiberglass is a highly fatigue prone material and over time it looses strength through flexing cycles. A flexible boat may have plenty of reserve strength when new but over time through flexure fiberglass loses this reserve. 

There are really several things that determine the overall strength of the hull itself. In simple terms it is the strength of the unsupported hull panel itself (by 'panel' I mean the area of the hull or deck between supporting structures), the size of the unsupported panel, the connections to supporting structures and the strength of the supporting structures. These early boats had huge panel sizes compared to those seen as appropriate today and the connections were often lightly done. By the early 80's, most and certainly the better boat builders understood this issue and had systematically added framing systems that reduced the spans of the panels. 

This fatigue issue is not a minor one. In a study performed by the marine insurance industry looking at the high cost of claims made on older boats relative to newer boats and actually doing destructive testing on actual portions of older hulls, it was found that many of these earlier boats have suffered a significant loss of ductility and impact resistance. This problem is especially prevalent in heavier uncored boats constructed even as late as the 1980's before internal structural framing systems became the norm. The study noted that boats built during the early years of boat building tended to use a lot more resin accelerators than are used today. Boat builders would bulk up the matrix with resin rich laminations (approaching 50/50 ratios rather than the idea 30/70), and typically used proportionately high ratios of non-directional fabrics (mat or chopped glass) in order to achieve a desired hull thickness. Resin rich laminates and non-directional materials have been shown to reduce impact resistance and to further increase the tendency towards fatigue. The absence of internal framing means that there is greater flexure in these older boats and that this flexure increases fatigue further.

Over the years, the combination of the methods used to handle fiberglass fabrics within the factories, the improved methods usedto make the fiberglass fibers and turn them to fabric, the formulation of the resins used, and the precision with which resins are mixed, the careful balance of resin to fiber ratios and orientation of the fibers within the hull combined with better stress mapping has improved the strength and durability of the matric enormously. The closer spaced framing and structural attachment means that the physical stength of the modern boats far exceed the strength of the earliest thick skinned boats. 

But more to the point, the 1970's was a period when boat builders had begin looking for ways to lighten boats. With the price of resin rising rapidly, one natural way was to reduce hull thickness. They simply lightened scantlings but had not yet made the leap to proper internal framing. Boats like the Catalina 30, have skins that are no thicker than modern boats of a similar size, but lack the structural advances that make the even medium quality modern boats much stronger than their predecesors. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

AKsteve said:


> I have a relatively small amount of money saved ($15,000), I know in the boat market this is an insubstantial amount of money. I have been casually shopping for boats online and there seems to be quite a few old boats that meet my basic requirements for under $15,000 dollars.


I am looking at the January edition of "Voile et Voiliers", a French mag. On the front page you can see a guy sitting in a miniscule sailboat, half hidden by big waves.

The title is "3 Years, 6 meters, 30 000 miles, an incredible solo circum navigation in a dayboat" (freely translated).

The boat is really incredible. I am sure that the guy paid for it a fraction of the money you have for a boat. It´s an old, old boat and it is a lake boat.

Another mad guy that was lucky, the vast majority of the readers of this thread would think.
Well, personally I would not disagree, but reading deeper I found out that the guy has a PhD in electronics and is a Sail monitor (course and cruising) with more than 10 000 miles experience.

And being lucky for 30 000 miles and three years is an improbability. A hell of a sailor for sure&#8230;and a lucky one also.

By the way, this guy was not trying to prove anything, that boat was the best he could find with the money he had.

Bottom point: If you have the manual skills and recover an old boat, probably, if you don't count the hours you are going to spend working, in the end, when you sell it again, in much better shape, you will not lose money and meanwhile you will have been sailing and living on a boat.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Jeff_H said:


> There are a lot of good boats out there in your price range but I would think that it would be next to impossible to live year round on a small sailboat in Alaska. I can't imagine that you can store a boat in the water in winter in Alaska and so many of the important life supporting systems will not operate. But more to the point, even a log cabin has more insulation value than a fiberglass boat, making whatever heat source that you have go much further in terms of making life liveable. Small boats without cored hulls have almost no insulation value at all, and so are very hard to keep comfortable.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Jeff


I don't know if it is impossible, but certainly it will not be easy. See if some locals do it and talk with them. They will certainly have a lot of knowledge about the local conditions.

I believe that you will need a solid boat with a small interior space and with a good heater.

Something like this:

1984 Vancouver Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Regards

Paulo


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

You should be able to get what you want anywhere. Pick the area you intend to sail in. The West coast is more challenging to move boats out in the open water. At 30 ft you're getting a boat with headroom, and a more comfortable live aboard. At 27 ft you're not with a lot less interior space. you'll find uese Catalina 30's everywhere. It's also the standard for that size with room and a strong class association. In this market you should be able to get a boat that is in good condition and has the upgrades that you want. It's very expensive to do upgrading unless it's just sweat work. Avoid buying gear new. I keep a list of what gear I need and routinely cruise consignment places and swap meets. That's the only way I can afford what I do.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

AK- first things first. Where exactly are you planning to do this coastal cruising while living aboard? It makes a big difference in the type of boat you should be looking for IMHO. If you are planning to live aboard and cruise the BC coast (Alaska to Seattle area) you might want to think about a pilothouse, or at least something you can put a full enclosure over the cockpit and still sail. You'll also need a reliable heat source (or two). If, on the other hand you are planning to return to CA, especially southern CA, you might want to concentrate on a completely different type of boat. Are you interested in racing at all, or are you thinking about offshore? These are all basic questions that you need to answer before looking at specific boats to buy. It's easy to buy a boat right now, hard to sell one so you want to get what will work for you the first time. I think you'll be able to find a decent boat for $12-15K, but do your homework first and figure out what is important to you. Good luck and keep us informed.


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## AKsteve (Jan 11, 2010)

*Thanks*

Thanks for the input everybody! The more I search the more I am finding that most of the boats that meet my requirements are in Florida or California. I am not planning on returning to Alaska, If I find my boat in Florida I will sail Florida to start. what are everyone's thoughts on Catalina 30's? They seem like a comfortable liveaboard and there are many on the market but are they any fun to sail?


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## AKsteve (Jan 11, 2010)

Bljones- thanks for the books, I will absolutely check those out.


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## secondsun (Jan 13, 2010)

There are ample boats out there for much less than you have saved up. And if you can live in a shack then you can live in a small boat. 

I lived on a 25 foot hunter for 4 years in Michigan all the way to St. Thomas. The benefit of living on a small boat is you won't have any rent expense compared to an apartment. Infact there is a 36ft Cal for sale in Holland, Michigan for $7k right now and it's in pretty good condition. But I took the 12k a year I would have spent on rent and put it into the boat and my savings. 

To make this dream a reality you might consider moving from Alaska. Keeping warm in a small boat in northern climates is tough. Besides trying to cruise the Bearing Sea in a small boat might not always be pleasant or safe. But if this is a dream that won't stop then do it now. Get the best boat you can for your money and go cruising. You can get experience by volunteering as crew at your local boat club. Unless ofcourse if they are ice boats.

Gl


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

AKSteve
I think there are a lot of boats available that would do what you want to do. I agree with Jeff to a certain extent but there were both well built boats in the past just like there are now. One thing to look for in the basic construction is bulkheads that were solidly glassed in to the hull and not just bolted to the liner. This gives a much stronger structure with less hull twisting and movement. This also eliminates the early Catalina 30. I'd look at the Yankee 30, Allied, Alberg, CS, Seafarer, Tartan, Bristol, Ericson, Albin and Cape Dory as possibles.


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## ColoGuy (Jan 7, 2010)

I am thinking there may be some really terrific bargains in Haiti right now.

I'm a shrewd investor who hardly ever had money.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have a funny feeling most of the boats in Haiti are hauling chunks of broken concrete now. The Question Steve asked about Cat 30 - Anything is fun to sail!! But if you buy a Catalina there are those on this forum who will give you a lot of static! Personally I have never owned a Catalina or a Hunter, but have spent a lot of time on both. My favorite is O'Day (I owned a 28 for many years) but now have a big heavy slug for comfort. I would probably have kept the O'Day 28 but the inside headroom was only 5-10 and my wife is 6-0 and I am 6-6. When we were in our 20's this was no problem, but 60 year old backs and necks cannot take the strain of constant crouching. To the question of affordability, I sold my 28 for 14K 6 years ago when the market was good, and she was in great shape. In today's market, you should be able to find an equal boat for 10-12. If you can find a satisfactory fresh water boat, you will avoid the spar and rigging corrosion problems inherent in salt water. My boat would have serious problems if it were in salt water. The 37 Endeavour has a keel stepped mast, which other threads on this forum say (rightfully so) will always leak. Salt water in the bilge will attack the aluminum fuel tank and aluminum water tank, both of which are in the bilge. I had a friend who had an Endeavour 42 who had fuel in his water supply and water in his fuel tank because of this.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Keel stepped masts do leak - rainwater through the sheaves at the masthead. If they leak saltwater, presumably through the partners, maintenance has been poor. With a proper mast boot this should not happen.


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## ColoGuy (Jan 7, 2010)

RAGTIMEDON said:


> I have a funny feeling most of the boats in Haiti are hauling chunks of broken concrete now. The Question Steve asked about Cat 30 - Anything is fun to sail!! But if you buy a Catalina there are those on this forum who will give you a lot of static! Personally I have never owned a Catalina or a Hunter, but have spent a lot of time on both. My favorite is O'Day (I owned a 28 for many years) but now have a big heavy slug for comfort. I would probably have kept the O'Day 28 but the inside headroom was only 5-10 and my wife is 6-0 and I am 6-6. When we were in our 20's this was no problem, but 60 year old backs and necks cannot take the strain of constant crouching. To the question of affordability, I sold my 28 for 14K 6 years ago when the market was good, and she was in great shape. In today's market, you should be able to find an equal boat for 10-12. If you can find a satisfactory fresh water boat, you will avoid the spar and rigging corrosion problems inherent in salt water. My boat would have serious problems if it were in salt water. The 37 Endeavour has a keel stepped mast, which other threads on this forum say (rightfully so) will always leak. Salt water in the bilge will attack the aluminum fuel tank and aluminum water tank, both of which are in the bilge. I had a friend who had an Endeavour 42 who had fuel in his water supply and water in his fuel tank because of this.


First....I hope everybody has dug through their pockets to help out our friends in Haiti. I wanted to go down and help but am presently over committed to other very pressing problems.

I am darn close to 6'6" myself. Now in my 50's, comfort has become a large issue. So I would listen closely to any advice that you gave about boats that are kind to giants.

I have a good budget right now, I could spend over 50. I have been a cabinet maker and can do various maintenance on a good, older boat. I am looking for a boat that tends to hold its value for a couple years.

I want to cruise around N and S America for a couple years.


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