# Cruiser/Racer....Is it possible to be both?



## SailChick20 (Jul 15, 2008)

I admit, the SA thread spurred me to ask...but this is something I've struggled with too.

While the racing bug has bitten me...I like to cruise just as much.
It seems like the majority of sailors have chosen to mostly go one way...and scoff at the other. 

I rarely see my diehard racing friends out with pals enjoying the breeze on a random day...and they've referred to boats like mine (with sleepable berths, enclosed heads & comfy cabin feel) as "furniture."

Dare I ask...Is it possible to love both?


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## NOLAsailing (Sep 10, 2006)

Hell yeah... in fact, I raced all weekend and just got back in from an evening booze cruise. Racing makes you a better all round sailor, plus it's a lot of fun in its own right. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy a lazy sail.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Hell yeah! Why not? To me it seems it inevitably comes down to whether you really want to be "competitive" in either/both. But with some compromise/balance - what's stopping you? Race your "cruiser". Cruise your "racer". It's all good!


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Sure it is.

Most of us are cruisers until another boat heaves over the horizon and we then become racers! (g)

There is a point to be made there, though. I'm always suspicious of someone who says they're just a cruiser with no real interest in getting the most speed out of their boat. Do they mean it or are they just lazy?

Those whom are just racers burn out. I suspect as most do on racing alone, in any sport. For them it's not the specific mode of racing, it's the racing alone.

I think most of us are like you and much of our angst regarding choosing a boat reflects the balancing of those two often separate goals of speed over comfort. The boat manufacturers sure know about it; it's impossible to find any boat in the world that is not a racer/cruiser. Just look at their adverts!


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

SailChick20 said:


> ....
> Dare I ask...Is it possible to love both?


I find it quite easy to love both...the real dilemma is that it's very difficult to enjoy both while owning one boat.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Both you Bendy toy and my Jeanneau from the same mid 80's era, are classic racer/cruisers. Nice interiors, decent speed. Can shame a few on the course if you have the right crew etc. Nothing wrong with the ability to do both!

Where I am at, it is nice to sail across puget sound, about 6'ish miles from Edmonds to Kingston, have dinner, sail home. Then again, local club has little bouy races that can be fun. About every weekend of the yr, there is a race somewhere on Puget sound with in 3-6 hrs if you really want to do that along with it. 

The San Juans up into the Canadian equals, some of the best cruising grounds around, once you figure out the tides and currents..........

Yes possible to do both. Fortunetly some newer designs are coming out with the ability to do both. Not just being a sled, ie a melges, or a cruiser, seems like the rest!

Marty


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

I race my cruiser 4-5 times a year and I crew on my friends boat for the races every other weekend. The only downside is that my wife can't figure out why I'm constantly trimming and adjusting for the "lake swirl" winds. She sees no point in getting that last .1 knot while heading down the lake with the kids. Once you love the racing, you can't help it.


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## SailChick20 (Jul 15, 2008)

US27inKS said:


> I race my cruiser 4-5 times a year and I crew on my friends boat for the races every other weekend. The only downside is that my wife can't figure out why I'm constantly trimming and adjusting for the "lake swirl" winds. She sees no point in getting that last .1 knot while heading down the lake with the kids. Once you love the racing, you can't help it.


I catch regular flack for this too.


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## Wayne25 (Jul 26, 2006)

I think Alex is a perfect example of doing both at a high level.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Alex is a high profile person on here doing both. But reality is, many others on here do something similar or equal in their boats, at the level they are able to do. 

The ability to do both is definitely there! 

Marty


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

It shouldn't be too hard to reconcile this philosophically. All boats and ships, regardless of their purpose, used to be racers. All of them were designed for a purpose and then designed to spend the minimum time at sea accomplishing it in the most productive way. No one designed something to be lived upon just for the living upon of it! (g)

This explains everything from the Australian wool clippers to the Down East fishing schooners, to the _America_, the SS _United States_, and today's high speed ferries.

We're a little confused today. We've passenger ships that go on cruises that amount to nothing more than heading out over the horizon and doing circles in the water. Likewise we have boats that are designed to sail as a secondary function. We're rightfully bored with both.

Back to the advert. game. You notice how no one advertises a "slow cruiser"? (g)


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

What two boats sailing within sight of each other are not racing? 

In my opinion, I guess it depends on how competitive you are if you will be happy with the compromise. I am very competitive and like to go fast, but as long as there are other boats in a class that I could sail against head-to-head, I can be satisfied. I would get bored pretty quickly if I was only able to compete on corrected time.
Speed is relative and you don't have to be on a sport boat to feel the adrenaline rush from a close contest.


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

I am a cruiser and have never been in a race. But faster is always better than slower except near a dock or when trying to cook dinner.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Yes, you can be a cruiser and a racer. However there are some pit falls one needs to be aware of, like a BBQ on the stern rail. The racers will not take you serious. With out the BBQ the cruisers won't take you serious. Yes It can be confusing, like raising the yellow protest flag to a passing powerboat who forces you alter your course and then you realize your not racing.

Another one to watch out for is the urge to yell starboard tack to any sailboat with in 100 yards of you.

If you can keep these things in check you will be OK.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

bubb2 said:


> Another one to watch out for is the urge to yell starboard tack to any sailboat with in 100 yards of you.


I like to do this at the bar after a race.  You'd be surprised at how well it works.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

"Two ships pass in the night, no one notices. Two ships pass in the day, it's a race."

Absolutly, you can do both. It really is a matter of degrees. Yes some boats are set-up to for one option or the other, but most of us have boats that were specificlly designed to ride the fence between the two modes of sailing. 

Sometimes you have to make minor modifications to your cruising boat to race. There is a guy in our harbor that keeps his boat on a mooring. He occationally likes to join in the Saturday morning races. I regularly see him row out to his mooring and then off load 200 ft. of chain rode into his dingy before the start. Me, I keep a cardboard mock-up of a BBQ on the stern rail so I look like a cruiser, but without the weigt.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

SailChick20 said:


> While the racing bug has bitten me...I like to cruise just as much.
> ...
> Dare I ask...Is it possible to love both?


I don't see why not--The Admiral and I do. In fact: It was a requirement on the part of The-Admiral-To-Be that whatever boat we bought be a performance boat. She didn't want to be sailing a "tub." We ended-up with a Pearson P30, described by Jack Horner as "...an attempt to meld the attributes of racing boats with those of family cruisers--sort of like rigging a mini-van to race at Indy." And, by all accounts, they succeeded. *However*: Such a boat is not going to be as fast as a pure race boat, nor as comfortable as a cruiser. Such is the way of compromises. Likewise: We'll probably never (attempt to) live on her for months at a time (we're still working up to a whole weekend), nor will we likely race the Mackinac with her. (Tho that latter is certainly easily w/in her capibilities.)

So, yes: You can love both, and you can have a boat that will do both "adequately," IMO. We have people in our club that do only one or the other, and others that do both.

Jim


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

The perfect boat to do cruising and racing is of course the catamaran.

I'm perhaps somewhat biased on that, but which of you can top 10 knts in 15 kts of wind sailing single handed while your Admiral sleeps on a queen sized bed in a air conditioned boat; taking time from the helm to go in and get ice cubes you just made in your propane powered Refridge to refresh the Rum and Zero that you left just sitting around on the helm station?

Oh, and do it pointing 40 degrees off the wind.

Non-believers are welcome to come sailing with me, I've already posted the photo-evidence


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Chuckles- The obvious problem there is you can only race if there is another cat to race against. PHRF doesn't handle multi-hulls well if at all and I think I'm safe in saying the sailchick- isn't likely to find anyother multi's to race against.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

PHRF SMURF

PHRF is a guideline, subject to modification and interpretation  

I only 'race' locally if the winds are less than 12 kts, I can't plane in that low a breeze so I'm limited to hull speed. Makes it fair, mostly. I'll admit as commodore of my yacht club I can stretch the rules somewhat. 

On the other hand, I 'race' every boat I'm on a similar course to, and often change course just to have a little fun. I win some, I lose some as I'm an indifferent racer.

For my local club, we use 174 as my PHRF, no screecher allowed. We (Race chair and I) arrived at that by sailing along side a boat rated at 177 in 10 knts of air, completing a triangle and hanging within 10 feet of relative starting positions. The other boat was a Islander 37, 150 genoa, both boats with clean bottoms. I am not eligible for trophies and such, and generally start at the 5 minute warning to stay clear of them that are eligible.
I cross the line at finish, hit my stopwatch and if the gun for the winner goes off more than 5 minutes later I figure I won line honors. It's the best I can do.

Keep in mind that I'm single handing a condo-cat against race crewed boats and only doing it for fun (and a little nose rubbing in the waves).

There are 118 KNOWN Gemini's on the Lakes for a starter. Multi's will eventually rule.

There are 4 Gemini's on my local river, two in my yacht club.

Google 'multihull racing chicago' then check out the FLEETS that are there.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

There are actually quite a few multi's that race on puget sound. DragonFly is a speed demon, a cat with a -160 or some such rating! Not a real good crusier tho. Most multi's are tri's. I guess some folks only need the training wheels, and NOT the main hull!:laugher:laugher

Marty


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Chuckles, when I'm up in you're neck of the woods, I'd like to sail a W/L course against you. I also rate a 174, and think it would be fun to see how it works out. Maybe a mis-"Match race" if you will.


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

You can love both but I fear a crusier boat will never be competive with the same boat set up for racing.

That does not mean that you cannot have fun racing just don't expect to win the over all or your class.

Unless you are willing to remove all cushions, wate in the head, fresh water, food stuffs, pots and pans, bedding, fuel (just enuff to get to the race and back) and anything that does not have a use for sailing.

You might want to look at thinner stronger halards and the anchor if not required needs to be removed or downsized to the min.

The bottom must be clean and smooth.

Food and water can be carried in an ice chest.

Be very leary of letting the racer out! You might just find yourself taking things things off your boat--you really didn't need them anyway.

There is a camaradie among racers that most will never understand untill they become racers.



SailChick20 said:


> ."
> 
> Dare I ask...Is it possible to love both?


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

Kind of like racing a Corvette against a pickup truck.



chucklesR said:


> PHRF SMURF
> 
> PHRF is a guideline, subject to modification and interpretation
> 
> ...


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

timebandit said:


> Kind of like racing a Corvette against a pickup truck.


I'd bet some pickups might give a vette a run for its money in some races. IE straight ahead such as a 1/4 mile. Not sure they would do well in a slalom or equal......but some pickumups are pretty quick, and have decent HP-lb ratio's.

But in the end, multi's vs mono's will not generally speaking do very well head to head! just like pickumups and vettes........Now to remember what a vette is,,,,or a car for that matter! says the person that has only owned one car, 69 conv bug, and too many trucks to count!

Marty


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

When my brother was living in LA... he had a friend that had a pickup truck that could smoke most Corvettes. It had a 500 cu. in. block V8 that was bored and blueprinted... couldn't corner for jack, but in a straight line... it was a bat outta hades...


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Some of you guys need to research how fast a new corvette really is. But that discussion is for another thread...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

ZZ-

I know how fast the new Corvette is.. the truck I'm talking about was from back in the late 1980s... when the Corvettes were a bit more reasonable. 


zz4gta said:


> Some of you guys need to research how fast a new corvette really is. But that discussion is for another thread...


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Ford lightening? 

Just b/c the vette was slow, doesn't make the truck fast.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Was an old Chevy truck IIRC... BTW, the Corvettes from the late 1980s didn't have any where near the performance or power that the latest ones do... Then again, cars like the Corvette are likely a good part of the reason GM should be going belly up IMHO... No real need for a car that can do 160+ MPH on streets that are limited to 70 MPH by law.  Stupid and wasteful.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Along with some of the motors in trucks are rather high HP etc too. I do not need 360 HP of turbo diesel in my pickumup either! Heck, I have half the torque and HP of my pickumup in my 6 ton dumptruck! and It is good for twice the gross wt that my pickumup is! 

Any way. back to sailing......the pickumup can pull a trailerable boat at 7mph up and over just about any hill around too! Not that I can go any faster tha 60 for 100 mile around my house! even on interstates, so why worry about going 70! and the extra 50 hp or so needed to do so!

marty


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

New 'vettes are limited just below 200 mph and still get almost 20 mph if driven nice.

Most new trucks are limited to around 90 mph.

Now these are just your run of the mill, plunk you money down, and pick your color ones.

Dog---I hear they are limiting all sail boats to 7 kts. for safety.


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Was an old Chevy truck IIRC... BTW, the Corvettes from the late 1980s didn't have any where near the performance or power that the latest ones do... Then again, cars like the Corvette are likely a good part of the reason GM should be going belly up IMHO... No real need for a car that can do 160+ MPH on streets that are limited to 70 MPH by law.  Stupid and wasteful.


Your talking about a company deserving to go bankrupt for making a product that is stupid and wasteful,....on a sailing forum


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I race on other people's boats, but on my old boat (a classic '70s racer-cruiser), and my new boat (a bulbous full-keeler of less-sprightly response), I cruise as if I am racing. 

In other words, I don't see any dichotomy between racing and cruising as between sailing effectively to the limits of the given design and sailing less than effectively. I have tacked sleek fin-keelers more rapidly in my full keeler, much to the horror of sporty racing types, because I know how to run my boat and because I have a great big rudder and oodles of foresail to use bring her head around. Will I win races? Hardly. Will I get the most out of the boat and belay the impression that she's a fat barge loose in stays? I certainly hope so. Any time I hear the crew on an obvious cruiser shout "Ready about?", I know I am in familiar company.

Nonsuch 30s, 33s and 36s (heavily built cat-rigged cruisers, for those unfamiliar with them) are regularly raced around here and frequently win or otherwise rank highly after the PHRF ratings are applied. Go below, and they look like nautically themed rec rooms, however. But their owners know how to squeeze potential into kinetic in their boats, and thus win races.


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## SailChick20 (Jul 15, 2008)

Corvette/truck debaters...scram, you hijackers! lol
 

I guess what I'm getting at...
My boat is fairly fast, based only on how many others I pass while cruising...and what the knotmeter reads. I race on others' boats, and now have a curious interest to try it on my own this summer...nothing major, just a beer can here or there.

Will taking my Bene First 305 (folding prop & all) out equate to someone entering a NASCAR race in a 80's era Pontiac? I cringe when I hear the words "Bendytoy" and "Beneslow" thrown around by racers...and wonder if I'll end up feeling like an idiot out there. (sailing skills aside)


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Chick I just looked up your PHRF rating, the us average is 165. That is a quick boat for a 30 footer. Enjoy the racing and remember who is making fun of your bendy. Those are guys you want to wave to enthusiastically when you pass them.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

SailChick20 said:


> Will taking my Bene First 305 (folding prop & all) out equate to someone entering a NASCAR race in a 80's era Pontiac?


For club racing: Not at all. I did a quick search, and found PHRF ratings for your boat between 155 and 168. Our boat's PHRF rating is usually 180. So you'd have to give us anywhere from 12 to 25 seconds/nm.

What you will need to do is get her in "racing trim" (as previously noted by timebandit and others); learn the racing rules (there are additional "rules of the road"), incl. the flags (there are many of them), and practice, practice, practice. Tacks, gybes and going around the cans is all about timing, and how well you and your crew executes means the difference between winning and losing. Speaking of crew: You're going to want crew. And your BF's thing about "minor tweaks" for speed being unimportant: You're going to have to either change his attitude, have him off the boat, or relegate him to "rail meat" during races. (And even as rail meat: When they're supposed to get to the other side, that means now, not "as you please.") There is no such thing as an "unimportant" tweak during a race. Every 10th of a knot matters. Unless you don't care about winning. In which case: What's the point?

Jim


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The difference between my 85 Jeanneau Arcadia and your mid 80's Bendytoy first 305 and the rating is "nothing" well, my base rating local rating is 188 due to regional issues. But on the east cost it is a 169! Folks are suprised how fast my boat is for a Jeanneau! The beny first series boats are ment to race, perform etc, vs the oceanus versions ie "bendyslows"

Your boat is slower than around 1/4 or less of 30'rs, and faster than 3/4 of them! A J 30 is one of the fastest boats of our size at ~140, and Hunters in the 220 range, or full keel old shoes in the mid 200 range! We have fast boats for there size.

Here is a pic of my boat doing 7'ish knots last Oct taken by another sailnetter on here, notice the similarity's of the boats. Yours IIRC a Farr desing, mine a Tony Castro - ie designer of the Laser SB3. Get out and enjo your boat, be it racing, or cruising, all of it is good!










Marty


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Keep in mind there are many levels of racing. If you are talking low-level club racing, there is no reason why a well-prepared production boat from the 1970s or 1980s with a decent bottom and sails can't be competitive. I did it for many years. However, to compete at higher levels, it becomes more difficult (and expensive). Most cruisers don't want to remove all their cruising gear before every race and pay for 2 sets of sails - race and cruise.


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

timebandit said:


> Food and water can be carried in an ice chest.


Just don't buy the ice chest at WALMART!!!


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

AE28 said:


> Just don't buy the ice chest at WALMART!!!


Your back, I thought you didn't want to be here. Not to worry you were not missed.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/off-topic/49312-please-delete-my-membership-site.html


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Alex isn't here right now...but I'm sure he would want to share! 
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/off-topic/49312-please-delete-my-membership-site.html#post409351


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

bubb2 said:


> Chick I just looked up your PHRF rating, the us average is 165. That is a quick boat for a 30 footer. Enjoy the racing and remember who is making fun of your bendy. Those are guys you want to wave to enthusiastically when you pass them.


I have some bonehead questions. What's an average PHRF rating?

Is there a direct comparison between a small boat and a large boat with the same rating?

I did some googling to see if I could find another Fraser 41 already rated and I found one up in Canada rated at 175. What does that tell me?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Ray,

If you go here you get the US Sailing Hi/lo/ave rating for boats. Unfortunately, I can not find a fraser 41 on this list, so probably not too many race them. But with you 175, lets assume, vs the ave for Kristens boat at 165, she has a faster boat than you do by about 10 secs a mile. Being as she is 11' shorter than you, your boat would be on the slow side. Most if not many 40' boats are in the 60-100 rating range. Meaning it takes you about 1-2 min per mile you go longer than other 40' boats. So to use Alex's terminology, your boat might be considered an old shoe! His boat as an example, is around 20-40 IIRC!

Hope this helps to a degree when it comes to PHRF. Some PHRF clubs will also use a "time on time" factor vs time on distance. "IRC is a time on time" the bigger the number in this instance the faster you are. Base rating is 1.000. If you have a .8750 like my boats approx rating, My time gets multiplied by .8750. Where as a faster boat would have say a 1.2500, there time gets multiplied accordingly, but there handicap finish time will be longer than actual time, where as my handicap time will be smaller than actual time.

Here are the ratings for a B305 like kristens. With the first number being the fastest in the nation, next lowest, and the 3rd is ave for nation. Some area's like the east coast seem to have faster times, here in the NW, we seem to rate boats a bit slower, probably due more to the fact we have mostly up then down wind legs, very few shots at a reach leg. The SD means a shoal draft, the SD TM means a shoal/tall mast set up vs the first one is deep keel ave ht mast. 
BENETEAU 305 156 182 165
BENETEAU 305 SD 159 168 162
BENETEAU 305 SD TM 174 174 174

Marty


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## SailChick20 (Jul 15, 2008)

SEMIJim said:


> For club racing: Not at all. I did a quick search, and found PHRF ratings for your boat between 155 and 168. Our boat's PHRF rating is usually 180. So you'd have to give us anywhere from 12 to 25 seconds/nm.
> 
> What you will need to do is get her in "racing trim" (as previously noted by timebandit and others); learn the racing rules (there are additional "rules of the road"), incl. the flags (there are many of them), and practice, practice, practice. Tacks, gybes and going around the cans is all about timing, and how well you and your crew executes means the difference between winning and losing. Speaking of crew: You're going to want crew. And your BF's thing about "minor tweaks" for speed being unimportant: You're going to have to either change his attitude, have him off the boat, or relegate him to "rail meat" during races. (And even as rail meat: When they're supposed to get to the other side, that means now, not "as you please.") There is no such thing as an "unimportant" tweak during a race. Every 10th of a knot matters. Unless you don't care about winning. In which case: What's the point?
> 
> Jim


Good points, Jim. I'm reading "Getting Started in Sailboat Racing," by Rich Stearns (who I coincidentally raced with my 1st time out on someone else's boat, that boat ended up winning their section in the Mac...8th overall). Not sure how I'll ever be able to keep track of all the flags.

The thing that makes me most nervous is the start...and the quick tacks/gybes before the start..only a couple feet away from other boats.

I can round up a decent crew, all willing to do what I say (and NOW!)...they're used to me shouting directions while cruising...lol.
If my BF whines, he's fired...although I think he'd be fine...he tolerates my urgency to make a fast change when sailing.

My sails are in for cleaning/inspection...and I'm having a US Sailing # put on them...so, if/when I decide to give it a go...at least they're ready. I have a new mainsail, (2 mylar headsails & spinnaker that I keep at home)...but would probably just stick to the JAM class.


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## SailChick20 (Jul 15, 2008)

blt2ski said:


> Ray,
> BENETEAU 305 156 182 165
> BENETEAU 305 SD 159 168 162
> BENETEAU 305 SD TM 174 174 174
> ...


Marty,

Is the PHRF affected by speed-related alterations, like say...my folding prop, VC-17 bottom paint, etc?

-Kristen


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Folding prop, yes, bottom paint, seriously doubt it.


SailChick20 said:


> Marty,
> 
> Is the PHRF affected by speed-related alterations, like say...my folding prop, VC-17 bottom paint, etc?
> 
> -Kristen


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The base rating you get "ASSUMES" you have a max jib on your rig, a max roach main, and a max sq spin, and a folding prop. You would then get credits "IF" you are not std.

example, if you biggest jib was a 140, you would get a 3 sec credit. so the 165 would be a 168. If your jib is smaller than about 130, you would get a 6 sec credit. This is assuming you max jib can be a 150-155 depending upon where you sail.

Mains and spins are also credited, or if you go bigger, you get a deduct. Like my genoa is a 158 or there abouts, so I am penalized 3 secs a mile, or I would have a 162 using your ave number.

Having carbons vs dacs for material, there is no difference. But a carbon sailed rig will usually sail faster than a rig with dac sails. Altho fresh out of the bag from the sail maker, both are quick vs older sails!

having VC17 paint vs an ablative paint, will net you some time that is not counted, again, the base rating assumes you are fresh paint, faired keel, rudder and hull.........A folding prop will net you more than the 6 sec a mile you get credited for vs a fixed prop too.

Hope this helps some!

Marty

ps, a twuck will out do a vette!<rollyeyes></rollyeyes>


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

bubb2 said:


> Your back, I thought you didn't want to be here. Not to worry you were not missed.
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/off-topic/49312-please-delete-my-membership-site.html


If you didn't miss me, why "your (sic) back"?

If you took the time and had the ability to understand the first sentence of the post you quoted, you'd see that I asked to have my membership in this site deleted. Obviously, that hasn't happened.


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

camaraderie said:


> Alex isn't here right now...but I'm sure he would want to share!
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/off-topic/49312-please-delete-my-membership-site.html#post409351


Who's "Alex"?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

AE28—

If membership in this forum is so odious...why do you bother participating... an intelligent person would just leave if it bothered them so much. Oh, never mind.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

erps said:


> I have some bonehead questions. What's an average PHRF rating?


I don't know if there is an "average" PHRF rating. FWIW: When the JAM class for our races got too big, they divided it, coincidentally, at our rating: 180. But if our races had contained more faster or more slower boats, that would've moved, I imagine.



erps said:


> Is there a direct comparison between a small boat and a large boat with the same rating?


I don't understand the question. The rating is the rating--it doesn't matter the size of the boat. With two boats with the same PHRF rating: The one that crosses the finish line first wins. There's no adjustment difference between the two.



erps said:


> I did some googling to see if I could find another Fraser 41 already rated and I found one up in Canada rated at 175. What does that tell me?


It tells you that somebody, somewhere gave that boat a PHRF rating of 175 . It tells you that you'd have to give us 5 sec/nm, and SailChick would have to give you 10 sec/nm (assuming 180 in our case, 165 in hers).

Jim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

SailChick20 said:


> The thing that makes me most nervous is the start...and the quick tacks/gybes before the start..only a couple feet away from other boats.


Yeah... the start... That's the scariest part and the part with which new racers have the most trouble. All that jockeying for position, boats tacking and gybing back-and-forth, more-or-less parallel to the start line, all of them looking to be in _just the right spot_ so they can turn into the line at _just the right time_  We got it right on, on our 2nd race. We also had boats so close to us on port and starboard you could almost reach our and touch them! I have been on boats at the start that had mere inches separating them from nearby boats. (And with captains yelling at one another about what the other was doing .)

But it's unavoidable. If you're going to race, and you're going to win, you gotta get in there and mix it up with the furball (as I call it). Just be on your toes and *watch out for the other guy*. Try to always leave yourself an out. Leave yourself w/o an out, and somebody else screws up, well... Practice panic tacks and gybes, until your crew can handle them without panicing.

If it's any comfort, it seems more collisions occur going around the marks than at the start. There: Something else for you to worry about .

Btw: A very experienced sailor at our club told me, one time after we'd had a *terrible[b/] start due to over-worry about starting too soon: "If you don't occasionally start early, you're always starting too late" .

Jim*


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> A folding prop will net you more than the 6 sec a mile you get credited for vs a fixed prop too.


They credited us with 12 s/nm and it *still* didn't make up for the performance hit we took. Of course: If the races had all been in moderate-to-heavy air, it probably would have.

Re: Bottom paint. I don't think they care about bottom paint. Speaking of that: In spring: Get your hull smooth. Apply paint. After it dries: Notice it has sharp little points sticking up all over? Go over to HD or Lowe's and pick up these big razor-blade scrapers. Then gently scrape your bottom. You're dragging the blades away from the edge! *Gently*. You need just enough pressure to knock off those sharp bits. Watch the curve of the hull and the corners of the blades carefully or you'll gouge your bottom. Then, after that's done, take crumpled-up newspaper and vigourously rub the entire bottom down. Don't forget the rudder.

You'll end-up with a bottom smooth as a new-born baby's backside .

Jim


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## Mikelivingstone (Apr 16, 2008)

I raced my First 305 for a couple of seasons, It was very good fun, we did quite well and eventually won the championship in the final year. 
Like Jim says, starts are very important, however I chose to be a bit conservative in the first couple of races. I think that being consistent throughout the series, and attentive to tweaking and noticing wind shifts is more important.

Mike


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> So to use Alex's terminology, your boat might be considered an* old shoe*! His boat as an example, is around 20-40 IIRC!


So....more racing stripes then?


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Chick, I agree the start is very important. Over the years you see many different ideas of what is a good start. You have your line huggers and line blockers.

I have found a method that works for me and I would like to share it with you. 15 min's before the race starts I am making 1 min runs up to the line so I know exactly where I need to be when the 1 min gun sounds. At the sound of the gun we turn the boat and trim sheets and make our run to the line. The Idea here is to be a full speed crossing the start line when the start gun fires. Once we come around and head for the start line after the 1 min gun there is no turning back or letting up. You are driving the boat to the start and you are going to find a whole between other the boats and that is where you pass through at the start.

My secret weapon. Bruce. At the one min gun I tell the most junior menber of the crew to hit the on button on the I-Pod witch is connected to the boats stereo. Loud and strong form the cockpit speakers comes Bruce. It gets the crew cranked up and lets the other boats know were are coming. I have it timed and edited to know that when Bruce starts to sing it is one min from the start of the song. The committee boat enjoys it also.

[URL="http://



[/URL]


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

Sail Chick

"Risk more than others think is safe. Care more than others think is wise. Dream more than others think is practical. Expect more than others think is possible. "
~ Cadet Maxim 

Kinna sez it all.

The bigest defference between racers and wanna be racers is seat time. You cannot expect to be tops if you don't pratice.

The reason racers are always tweeking things is just pratice and and learning.

Racing is about finding the edge and you won't find it untill you go over it. Trim the sails in and go faster and in some more untill you go slower then go back---lesson learned.

Watch what others are doing and try it in pratice to see if it will work for you.-- Faster boat has 5 crew up foward to set spin and you don't need that many--maybe the extra weight helps them round the mark better?? 

Who knows?

Ask for advice, from faster sailors. Try it and see if you can make it work for you. Please don't tell someone that has taken the time to help you that their advice could not work. When I take my time to explain something to a nubee and I get that response I think "that is why you will always be behind me".

Note: I DON'T RACE BOATS because I am to competive and would prolly end up spending to much money, sailing is my escape.

Being you senior by a few decades and 2 days I know what you are about and I caution you about going down the path you are headed. I also know you will not be swayed. 

Get in there and have some fun.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Yes Ray,

More racing stripes should help tremendously! Figure a gain of about 20secs per stripe, so 7-8 stripes should make you as fast as Alex! Kewl eh!

marty


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Jim,

Nice to know in you region they credit more than the NW! Still as pointed out, not sure the credit for a fixed prop is worth it! It has been shown many times over an over that a folding or equal is faster than the credit you get. Most folks seem to report .5-1 knot of speed in lighter winds. My PO did when he went from a fixed to a max prop. 

Marty


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Kristen,
Have you got a crew list started for next year?
Maybe we can do some JAM (Jib and Main) races on Wednesday nights. 
(I would think this would be a good starting point for you)
Im sure you would love it. Have you talked to Mark about it?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

JAM = jib and main.....nice to know what that means! Here in the NW it is FS or NFS, ie flying sails, or NON flying sails divisions. SO NFS here is equal to JAM there in GL's! Learn something here everyday if one looks! At least the jam is not what one puts on sandwiches!

marty


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

SailChick20 said:


> The thing that makes me most nervous is the start...and the quick tacks/gybes before the start..only a couple feet away from other boats.


You'll get used to this, and you'll learn which boats you can trust not to hit you and which ones to avoid.

The thing that makes me nervous is when you're going to cross paths with someone and are on starboard tack, and the other boat has a big deck sweeper genoa flying. If you see feet under the edge of the sail and no one is playing peek-a-boo, you've got trouble.

When I go racing I live by the rule of "no paint exchange, no protest flag". It keeps everyone friendly at a friendly race. Real racers won't be so kind.


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## SailChick20 (Jul 15, 2008)

sailortjk1 said:


> Kristen,
> Have you got a crew list started for next year?
> Maybe we can do some JAM (Jib and Main) races on Wednesday nights.
> (I would think this would be a good starting point for you)
> Im sure you would love it. Have you talked to Mark about it?


Hey Tim,

I've mentioned it to Mark a bit...and I'm sure I'll end up racing with him 75% of the time still. I'd like to get some more experience on other boats too.

Been thinking about joining MORF...maybe catch a race here or there, when Mark isn't racing....and when I can round up enough (& qualified) crew. I have a handful of people that claim interest, but you know how quickly that can change when you need em' to come through on a certain day.

Seems like there are very few in the JAM section on Wednesday nights...so maybe you're right...a good place to start. See you there sometime?!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

AE28 said:


> Sanctimonious blather


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

bubb2 said:


> I have found a method that works for me and I would like to share it with you. 15 min's before the race starts I am making 1 min runs up to the line so I know exactly where I need to be when the 1 min gun sounds. At the sound of the gun we turn the boat and trim sheets and make our run to the line. The Idea here is to be a full speed crossing the start line when the start gun fires. Once we come around and head for the start line after the 1 min gun there is no turning back or letting up. You are driving the boat to the start and you are going to find a whole between other the boats and that is where you pass through at the start.


This method is pretty much key to a great start. "Running the line", we used to figure if there was a favoured pin (you could look it up) and count in seconds the time it took to transit the line. We knew how long it took to tack about within 2 seconds or so, barring mishaps. So we would wait for the 1 minute gun and make our turn X/2 - tack time and most of the time we would tack over the line right at the committee boat or the far pin.

Of course we would always choose to be on starboard at this point, and to be doing hull speed if possible. There are few greater pleasure in racing than to see a horde of guys in your fleet on port in front of you luffing and slewing and shouting as you flash by 'em at arms' length to haul ass over the start line.

That and a boat that's owed a bit of time are excellent keys to victory.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Valiente, We are talking the same language!! A good start makes for a great race! The music is just to distract the other boats.


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