# Spade rudders vs blue water passage making



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

THERE! FINALLY, A BLUE WATER DISCUSSION THREAD FROM ME

"Rudder Lost at Sea" "--------" comes to mind...

Given the rarity we hear about lost rudders (and keels) it makes me wonder if the older boat designs were just more rugged then newer boats. 

Or? Are owners of older boats just very very lucky?

Can a spade rudder be made stronger then the boat it's mounted in? I say yes, and it's not necessarily a good thing. 

Rudder tube to deck or cockpit vs top bearing and stuffing box below water line? 

Rudder to skeg or keel; the weak point seems to be the bottom where it is held in or on the keel/skeg I've seen allot of looseness in many boats in that area, which seems to be a very neglected piece of hardware below the water line.

Would I be somewhat correct in guessing; rudders with support at the bottom are actually under built and weaker then a spade rudder in the same size range? 

Just wondering what the Jury thinks


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I have seen a lot of boats with seriously messed up spade rudders due to a hard grounding. It would not be my choice for serious cruising in areas we could call 'less-developed'.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I would only go blue water with a spade rudder if I also had a Hyrovane fitted. This gives you a back up rudder as well as the windvane controlled self steering.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

A few years back a buddy of mine lost a spade rudder on a LH54 about half way between Norfolk and Tortola. I had helped deliver the boat to Norfolk from up here, and luckily for me could not continue to Tortola.

They lost steering in the middle of the night. Next day they sent the youngest crew member over the side to find the rudder gone. They made it to within 10 miles of Tortola towing wraps for crude steering. 500 odd miles of zigzagging, with a quartering wind which was lucky. It was written up in one of the sailing mags, cannot remember which one. 

The culprit in this case was crevice corrosion on the stainless rudder shaft at the bearing. Not an easy spot to inspect. Even if it was hung on a bottom hinge too not sure it would have made a difference.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

capecodda said:


> The culprit in this case was crevice corrosion on the stainless rudder shaft at the bearing. Not an easy spot to inspect. Even if it was hung on a bottom hinge too not sure it would have made a difference.


Perhaps not, but the forces exerted on a rudder are really substantial. Having a bottom hinge transfers the load down and splits it between all hinges. There are not many keel hung rudders that suffer from a broken shaft. Frankly, never heard of one.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

A spade rudder by its configuration is a rotating 'cantilever' ... the least strong of all structural 'beam' elements. That said it is easy for such to be built strong enough to sustain a cantilever to equate to the service of any other rudder configuration. The main problem with cantilevered spade rudders is the metal choice of the rudder shafting - stainless steel; so, such is additionally vulnerable to cyclical stress (fatigue) and at the same time macroscopic crevice corrosion in any fatigue cracks that do (will) develop - two modes of failure all at the same time.

Usually, a valid 'blue water' design will have adequate scantlings or design safety factors to insure that the critical stresses of critical components are at a minimum and so that the stainless steel elements will be selected to be well under from whats known as 'the fatigue endurance limit' of the material (usually at less than 30% of Ultimate tensile strength or a safety factor of 3). Many 'blue water' designers use a Safety Factor of 4 or more on such 'critical' components, "just to be sure".

A coastal design will usually calcualte out to a safety factor of around 2; an inshore design at 1.5.

Rx - nothing to be afraid of with a spade rudder on a purpose built blue water design *IF* the designer 'really knew what he or she was doing' with respect to design for fatigue endurance. The problem with spade rudders lost at sea is they are invariably lost on 'coastal' designs that werent designed for such service or were designed around 'cost control' measures. 
So, when buying your new Blue Water boat with the contract condition of FS of 4 or greater for that Spade Rudder shafting .... you WANT a sample 'coupon' of the metal for submission to physical tensile testing including 'mill certifications' and 'chemical/physical analysis certifications' to validate that the metal is what its _supposed to be_ and not some 'crap' ordered from an 'economy' source of materials - gonna cost ya, but its worth it - IMO.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

krisscross said:


> Perhaps not, but the forces exerted on a rudder are really substantial. Having a bottom hinge transfers the load down and splits it between all hinges. There are not many keel hung rudders that suffer from a broken shaft. Frankly, never heard of one.


Yea, I agree with that. Forces are big on a spade, and in fact my current boat has a skeg hung rudder...although given the limited offshore we do, the primary advantage is catching a few less lobstah traps

BTW/any idea how to inspect for crevice corrosion on a shaft hidden in a bearing without dropping the rudder?


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

krisscross said:


> Perhaps not, but the forces exerted on a rudder are really substantial. Having a bottom hinge transfers the load down and splits it between all hinges. There are not many keel hung rudders that suffer from a broken shaft. Frankly, never heard of one.


A pintle hung rudder (shafting) by its 'structural beam configuration' is FOUR times stronger than a cantilevered spade rudder .... size for size, that is ....; and yes indeed, they too sometimes fall off, usually as a result of NO inspection/maintenance of the attachments.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

capecodda said:


> BTW/any idea how to inspect for crevice corrosion on a shaft hidden in a bearing without dropping the rudder?


NOPE, you really have to drop it and inspect it firstly with a pocket microscope, then 'dye penetrant' (magnaflux, etc.) ... then the 'clock' to see if you exceeded approx. one million (estimate) load cycles above the 'endurance limit'. With stainless steel you only get about 1 million load cycles that exceed the 'endurance limit' ... after that value, the metal is usually considered 'tired' (embrittled). This is the same reason that old airplanes are scrapped after a certain number of 'take offs and landings' .... their metal gets 'tired' (weak).


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

RichH...that's interesting. I don't think I've ever met anyone who dropped their rudder and did the inspection you describe. Sounds like a good idea before taking a long offshore trip on a less than new boat.

My recollection isn't perfect, but I think this rudder shaft was around 4" in diameter solid stainless. LH did lots of work in Taiwan, so I wonder about the quality of stainless.

I know Fontaine Yacht design has also done some of these shafts in carbon fiber. In talking with them, it was not only weight but also less bend, which reportedly made the bearing work better.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Dropped it out of my boat about 5 yrs ago. did a new cutless bearing, PSS seal. On my oday the post is held up only by the through bolt on the steering quadrant. Digging a hole in the ground was necessary for it to drop out completely.. thing is heavy too!


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

capecodda said:


> RichH...that's interesting. I don't think I've ever met anyone who dropped their rudder and did the inspection you describe. Sounds like a good idea before taking a long offshore trip on a less than new boat.
> 
> My recollection isn't perfect, but I think this rudder shaft was around 4" in diameter solid stainless. LH did lots of work in Taiwan, so I wonder about the quality of stainless.
> 
> I know Fontaine Yacht design has also done some of these shafts in carbon fiber. In talking with them, it was not only weight but also less bend, which reportedly made the bearing work better.


Solid shafting will not merit anything as essentially all or most of the bending stress is carried in the first few % of depth along the surface of the material. Crevice corrosion AND bending stresses which promote fatigue (cracks) because the endurance limit was exceeded .... once it penetrates into the macrostructure will cut even 'solid' metal like a knife through butter; same as how a puny little girl could rip apart an old fashioned thick phone book. When it comes to 'cantilevers' you want 'good' not 'solid'.

The reason pintle/hinge hung rudders are preferred for 'blue water' is they are less subject to bending stress because of their inherent (hinge) 'support'. Cantilevers are always 'bending'.


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## souljour2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

RichH said:


> Solid shafting will not merit anything as essentially all or most of the bending stress is carried in the first few % of depth along the surface of the material. Crevice corrosion AND bending stresses which promote fatigue (cracks) because the endurance limit was exceeded .... once it penetrates into the macrostructure will cut even 'solid' metal like a knife through butter; same as how a puny little girl could rip apart an old fashioned thick phone book. When it comes to 'cantilevers' you want 'good' not 'solid'.
> 
> The reason pintle/hinge hung rudders are preferred for 'blue water' is they are less subject to bending stress because of their inherent (hinge) 'support'. Cantilevers are always 'bending'.


good thread guys...I have been postponing my rudder repair alot...I guess because I probably need to haul out...I never liked spade rudders and have never owned a boat with one...after reading this discussion and realizing the forces at work I will probably never own one...for the type of sailing I like to do...but if I was a racer or stayed solely in the bay I would certainly not rule them out.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capecodda said:


> Yea, I agree with that. Forces are big on a spade, and in fact my current boat has a skeg hung rudder...although given the limited offshore we do, the primary advantage is catching a few less lobstah traps:





souljour2000 said:


> I never liked spade rudders and have never owned a boat with one...after reading this discussion and realizing the forces at work I will probably never own one...for the type of sailing I like to do...but if I was a racer or stayed solely in the bay I would certainly not rule them out.


Seems to be a commonly held perception, that _"the forces"_ are somehow generally larger on a spade rudder, relative to a traditional attached rudder, or skeg hung...

Among the most critical "forces" one should be considering in terms of rudder design for an offshore boat, are those that are transmitted from the rudder, to the helm, through the various components (quadrants, cables, etc) of the steering system... These are the things that are most likely to be overworked to the point of failure during an extended passage, rather than a complete failure of the rudder itself... And, a balanced spade rudder, being the most 'efficient' in hydrodynamic terms, will result in a far 'lighter' helm, and will as a rule introduce considerably less load into the overall steering system, than more traditional low-aspect 'barn door' style rudder attached/trailing a keel or skeg...

My boat original rudder was skeg hung, and as a result was not balanced, the shaft being very close to the leading edge... About 10 years ago, I rebuilt it with a new, far more substantial shaft. And, with the generous and superb advice of our resident expert Jeff H and others, I eliminated the skeg, and built up the leading edge of the rudder to 15-18% of the chord length forward of the shaft - the generally accepted optimum point to achieve hydrodynamic 'balance' in a rudder...










The result was a MASSIVE improvement over the original, unbalanced design... And I was reminded last winter after running a Cape George cutter south - a boat of equivalent size and displacement to mine - with its attached rudder requiring a huge tiller that swept the entire length of the cockpit, how much heavier the loads can be on such a comparative 'barn door', and how much less efficient they can be... Making a course correction in a heavy quartering sea in such a boat, required FAR more force than what would have been required in my own boat, with a more 'nimble' split underbody configuration with a balanced spade...

Personally, I think that a partial skeg extending perhaps 30% down the length of an otherwise high-aspect, balanced rudder, represents the ultimate overall solution in a bluewater rudder... Rich H is spot on in his earlier comments, it's not rocket science to properly engineer and size the components of a spade rudder, it's just gonna cost you... And, many of the failures of rudders we hear about on passage, were in boats that might not have been designed for such service to begin with, and were 'under-built' in this regard... whenever the "Production vs. Blue Water" debate rears its ugly head, I think rudder engineering is the principal category in which many production boats fall short, and where problems are likely to develop...

Something along these lines - a partial skeg, and a partially-balanced rudder - is what I'm trying to describe...


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Forces on the rudder when it's skeg or keel hung are twisting forces.
Forces on a spade rudder are both twisting and bending so the spade rudder will require a much stronger stock. Of course the greater the span of the spade rudder the greater the bending moment. Increase in chord length increases the twisting moment.

I favor carbon fiber rudders for my new designs. I have never had a failure with one. The build process of the carbon fiber rudder results in a monocoque structure with the blade and the stock being unified into essentially one piece. Given the strength of CF it is easy to apply a very conservative safety factor without getting a huge rudder stock. The modest size of the CF rudder stock, even when conservatively designed, means the designer has more freedom in choosing the foils used. The CF stock also has the advantage of being easily tapered to fit within the chosen foil with max stock size at the hull where the bending moment is greatest. With older, s.s. steel stocks the required stock diameter often drove the foil selection.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Yes ,rudders of any kind are often underbuilt but a rudder well built on a skeg is far stronger than one without a skeg. The advantages in peace of mind of overbuilt rudder fittings on an overbuilt skeg far outweigh any disadvantages of doing so. The weight difference is that of an extyr case of beer or two in the stern. While spade rudder boats do a lot of offshore cruising , I would not feel safe cruising in one ,over a boat with a well built skeg and rudder fittings, especially with all the Fukashima debris floating out there.. A low aspect ratio skeg can eliminate the chance of fouling your rudder as well.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

From everything I have read... a Skeg or keel hung rudder is also less likely to stall. The Skeg and Keel hung rudders wind up more like the flaps on an airplane wing. While the Spade rudder does allow for faster low speed turning.. if you crank her over at speed, you risk a real chance of stalling and no turning at all.

But.. it is a matter of just knowing your boat. I know in my Seasprite 23, I -have- to turn the rudder harder over to tack as compared to the Grampian 23 my parents had


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

"a rudder well built on a skeg is far stronger than one without a skeg"
Another silly statement from Brent Swain.
"Stronger in bending?
"Stonger" in twisting?
" Stronger" in your mind?

Engineering would say both rudders can be equally strong depending on the stock specs and the skin specs.
I know you don't like numbers Brent but sometimes an understanding of them can help.

I have designed more skeg hung rudders than any other designer. I now skegs. In 1973 when I designed the Valiant 40 I gave it a skeg hung rudder. I was attacked from all angles, "How dare you put a skeg hung rudder on a cruising boat". The arguments the skeg hung rudder are almost word for word what I hear now used against the spade rudder. But I was right back then and in no time it was very hard to find an offshore crusing boat without a skeg hung rudder. I know skegs. I know the arguments. Even Halber-Rassy went to skeg hung rudders.

But today I am equally as confident that the spade rudder is best for any boat. I notice that Halberg-Rassy now uses spade rudders in all their new models. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. That does not change my opinion. But I have a lot of spade rudder cruising boats out cruising and I have yet to have had a problem with one rudder.

So if you want to argue with me over rudder designs just keep in mind that for years almost every boat I designed had a skeg hung rudder. I know skegs and I know how they behave. I know their strengths and their weaknesses. I have designed both types.

If you are interested in my approach to rudder design I wrote an article for GOOD OLD BOAT about rudder design. I enlisted the help of several other designers in writing this article so a well rounded approach could be presented.
You can find the article in the July/August 2010 edition.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

A friend had to replace the bearings on his Dash 34 with a spade rudder which had not all that many miles on her, and has never been offshore. It was expensive.
You can make a skeg as strong as you please, without a serious size or weight penalty, then use some greatly oversized gudgeons and pintles, with no real penalty. The weigh difference between going for 1 inch pins and1 1.2 inch pins is negligible, but the safety factor goes up tremendously. With a spade rudder you have more serious limitations.
As Bob points out ,a skeg hung rudder has a twisting load on ,over a much shorter distance ( the chord) than the cantilevered force on a spade rudder ( the length, a much greater leverage). The load on the hull bearing is huge ,and the catilevered load on the shaft at the top of the rudder, compared to the spread out loads on pintles, as it is on the shaft, and thus far more prone to fail on a spade rudder. If you have a pintle on the bottom of a partial skeg, it puts the bending load on the much stronger blade, rather than on the shaft .
Bob. What do you use for sleeves where the carbon fibre wears on the bearing? Bronze? Titanium , more affordable in Seatle and near Boeing Surplus? It seems that crevice corrosion under the sleeve would rule out stainless.
Then there is always the concern of fouling a line between the rudder and the hull, which is common sense which doesnt show up in computer calculations. A good low aspect skeg eliminates this problem, a liability on spade rudders.
On my first boat, a pipe dream designed by Kinny, in my early 20's ,I visualized a skeg hung rudder, 6 ft futher aft from the keel hung rudder specified. Then I thought "I have zero sailing experience, so I better stick to what the highly regarded designer specified. After sailing her accros the Pacific I did exactly that, a huige improvement.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Brent: You are asking me to school you on rudder design? Can't see that happening.
There are good bearings and not so good bearings. Just because the bearing fails does not make the design of the rudder fail. I use,,,,,,,bearings exclusivey with great success. 

Don't shop at Boeing Surplus Brent. That's more your style.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

A friend bought $1200 worth of air tools at Boeing surplus for $125 . Last time I was there, unused drillbits, with the plastic coating still on them, were $1 a pound. What do you call someone who buys the same stuff in a hardware store, at retail prices, in the same town?
" INCREDIBLY DENSE!"


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

JonEisberg said:


> Seems to be a commonly held perception, that _"the forces"_ are somehow generally larger on a spade rudder, relative to a traditional attached rudder, or skeg hung...
> 
> Among the most critical "forces" one should be considering in terms of rudder design for an offshore boat, are those that are transmitted from the rudder, to the helm, through the various components (quadrants, cables, etc) of the steering system... These are the things that are most likely to be overworked to the point of failure during an extended passage, rather than a complete failure of the rudder itself... And, a balanced spade rudder, being the most 'efficient' in hydrodynamic terms, will result in a far 'lighter' helm, and will as a rule introduce considerably less load into the overall steering system, than more traditional low-aspect 'barn door' style rudder attached/trailing a keel or skeg...
> 
> ...


Catalina 27s could use this kind of change, as their rudders are extremely unbalanced, with a huge part of them well behind the shaft. Puting a gudgeon and pintle at the bottom of that partial skeg would greatly increase the strength of it, by taking much of the load off the shaft, and puting it on the skeg, which could be greatly overbuilt, without any penalty for doing so. It would also eliminate the chance of a line getting between the skeg and the rudder.
Tank tests have shown that a vertical or slightly raked foreward rudder is more efficient, and less likely to stall, than one raked aft.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

"Tank tests have shown that a vertical or slightly raked foreward rudder is more efficient, and less likely to stall, than one raked aft. "

Did they really write "foreward"? Better check your references. I think the word is "forward".

Present the data and make it current. CURRENT. Back up your words with reality. I know that is a challenge for you.

Oh Brent, there you go again making things up again.
Open those eyes. Look around. It won't hurt. You are determined to be blind.

You had to build a Pipe Dream before you figured out the rudder was in the wrong place.
I was a kid when I saw that design and I knew it was an antique. Of course the rudder was in the wrong place. Thank goodness I did not have to build the boat to figure that out.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Interesting stuff! Especially for someone with an "old" 1977, Bob Perry designed spade rudder on an amazingly well balanced little boat, the I-28. I have never sailed a boat with a nicer helm. That said, with the boat on the hard I will be dropping the rudder for a cutless bearing replacement. Time to do a shaft inspection, too!! I have already repaired the skin of this boat's rudder. When I got the boat the entire surface of the rudder was spyder cracked. I assumed it had filled with water and frozen. It had been on the hard for several years in New England. The cracks were evenly distributed. I drilled some holes and drained a lot of water. I ground down the cracks, not through the skin, filled them with an epoxy resin and tediously teased into place fg mat, then added a layer of fg mat in epoxy resin over the entire skin. I carefully sanded and faired the entire surface leaving a continuous epoxy/mat layer surface covering.

The stuff that drained out of the rudder the first year was septic. I was going to drill out some large plugs for inspection at that time but decided to see how things looked after a season of coastal sailing. I did inject foam into the holes I had drilled using a long feed tube placing the foam deep in the holes. I used a long 3/8 bit and drilled up from the bottom edge of the rudder as well as some holes up high. I repeated the hole drilling and foam injections for a couple of years and quit after no drainage or apparent "wasted" core showed up. No signs of the original surface cracks have ever appeared. I closed the holes with epoxy paste each time. It has worked so far!

Now I guess it is time for an exploratory dissection since I can take the rudder into my shop and a careful look. Where should I expect to find signs of failure as I inspect the rudder shaft?

Bob, have you ever heard of one of your I-28s loosing a rudder? Any suggestions?

Down


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Down:
Never heard of an I-28 losing it's rudder.
I'm here to help any time I can.

I appreciate your kind words on the balance of your boat. I will go to bed now with that thought in my mind.

Bob P.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

There's a Sun-27 on my dock; another sweet-handling little boat. I think this Perry fellow may know a thing or two about yacht design.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

bobperry said:


> But today I am equally as confident that the spade rudder is best for any boat.


This shows that C&C and Pearson were ahead of their time in adopting the use of spade rudders in mass production coastal cruisers.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

James:
Nathaniel Herrshoff was using spade rudders on some of his his designs.
I think he predates Pearson and C&C.


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## FranklinGray (Nov 1, 2012)

I hate to bring an old thread back to life but would like to add something and also ask something.

My old boat, a Hunter 376 made in 1996 had a very low aspect rudder with a fat 6" composite post that insured it never stalled, however it was very unbalanced causing the boat to be hard to handle going fast and healed 20 degrees. I added 2" inches to the leading edge and everything changed. It was an awesome sailing boat with a perfectly balanced rudder. I could be healed over 20 degrees with 8 degrees of weather helm going 8 knots in the water and I could steer with 1 finger. I could let go of the wheel and it would stay put at 8 degrees of weather helm. The autopilot amp use dropped from 3-4 amps to 1-2 amps. I love spade rudders for having this ability to be balanced and I sailed mine for over 30,000 miles without any problems, including a 4,000 mile leg.

Now I am buying a large 55' Whitby with a long keel and a skeg hung rudder with 3 attachment points. I looked at Autopilots for sale that are recommended for the 54,000 lb boat and they burn about 7.5 amps. I'm like, darn, wish I could balance this rudder. But if I read this right, somebody on this thread took their skeg off and put on a balanced spade rudder. That has me going hmmmmmm. Should I consider such a thing?

On the other hand, I have read that the skeg rudder will track better. Is that true for quartering seas of say steep 10'?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I’ve had skeg hung, stern hung, full keel and high aspect keel. Current boat is spade with high aspect bulb keel. 
There is NO absolute relationship between tracking and any of the factors you mention. Rather there are poor designs and excellent designs in each segment. Of all the designs I’ve had the current boat tracks the best in difficult seas. 
In terms of energy needs for the AP I think there are at least two other factors beyond tracking that should be considered. Speed lost by steering input and energy required to resume course. I’d be most interested in BobP or JeffH input on these and other issues considered by a NA in design. I think you design a whole boat that needs to work together and cannot examine one feature in isolation.


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## ImGary01 (Feb 8, 2018)

I'm really enjoying the discussion here guys. Please keep it up so I can learn from those with the expertise to provide good insight.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

FranklinGray said:


> I hate to bring an old thread back to life but would like to add something and also ask something.
> 
> My old boat, a Hunter 376 made in 1996 had a very low aspect rudder with a fat 6" composite post that insured it never stalled, however it was very unbalanced causing the boat to be hard to handle going fast and healed 20 degrees. I added 2" inches to the leading edge and everything changed. It was an awesome sailing boat with a perfectly balanced rudder. I could be healed over 20 degrees with 8 degrees of weather helm going 8 knots in the water and I could steer with 1 finger. I could let go of the wheel and it would stay put at 8 degrees of weather helm. The autopilot amp use dropped from 3-4 amps to 1-2 amps. I love spade rudders for having this ability to be balanced and I sailed mine for over 30,000 miles without any problems, including a 4,000 mile leg.
> 
> ...


Why are you buying a Whitby 55 that you obviously want to " fix" if you were so in love with a H376?

All because of a matter of 2 or 3 amp draw on the autopilot....

It's like comparing a ballerina to a sumo wrestler


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## FranklinGray (Nov 1, 2012)

Did not say I like my Hunter better than the Whitby, just the balanced rudder. I doubt I will make a change to the rudder on the Whitby after thinking about it more because I think it would move the CLR forword making the boat unbalanced without the skeg.

edit: and it is not a difference of 2 or 3 amps, but 6 amps an hour, totaling 144 more amps a day just for the AP.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

This? http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=7509

Wouldn't it also have a genset and or larger battery Banks? 
I'm seeing a modified fin keel and skeg Rudder I'm not seeing a full Keel or as you call that long keel, was that an option like on the W42?

And this
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5333


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## FranklinGray (Nov 1, 2012)

yes


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

There would need to be a considerable amount of very expensive 'shoring up' of the internal rudder supports inside the boat, too.
We've got a 53' boat and if we want to (read; not being lazy), we can balance the rig rather easily, even with a skeg hung rudder and steer with one finger. Perhaps your problem with the old boat was sail trim, not the rudder?


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## FranklinGray (Nov 1, 2012)

capta said:


> Perhaps your problem with the old boat was sail trim, not the rudder?


Perhaps you have never heard of the term Power Reaching.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

FranklinGray said:


> Perhaps you have never heard of the term Power Reaching.


Actually, I haven't, so I went online and lo and behold every nautical or sailing glossary I found, including Wiki, apparently hadn't either.
If however, you are talking about overdriving a boat on a reach, dragging a big barn door to leeward, once again I might suggest you'd get just as much speed (perhaps more) and put your boat through a whole lot less stress if you could to learn to trim the helm out of the boat.
But of course, you obviously don't think so, therefore I'm just as obviously wasting my time responding to your reply.
If one day you get the opportunity to sail a hundred plus foot gaff schooner on a broad reach in a good breeze you could bring up the term 'power reach', but let me assure you it would just be an understatement!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

C is right. The key to speed is no drag from steering. Any steering input slows the boat regardless of rudder design. Overpowering by not reefing often slows the boat. Flat is fast as you’re not digging a hole in the water with your leeward side.
Go racing or follow your days work and see for your self if C hasn’t given you a good tip.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

It's an older terminology https://www.yachtingworld.com/features/5-tips-mainsail-trimming-64018


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

That power reaching sounds like reefing or dousing the mizzen when exceeding hull speed. Never did I find a situation where the rudder ,All 12 or so square ft of balanced (10%) barn door was needed to keep the course .Helmsman to watch and dodge logs . Gaffers rule!!


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