# Advice for a young land lubber sailboat shopping



## jimh1991 (May 19, 2015)

Hello! 

I am sorry if there is a thread similar to this one, I couldn't find it even with google. A good link, if available would be incredible.

I am new to sailing and looking for my first boat. I'm in my early 20s and my fiance and I are tired of traveling around on land. We are ready to strike out and explore the sea. I grew up motor boating always lusting over the beauty and grace of the sailboats, and have weathered a few bad storms on the great lakes. I am looking for a live aboard that may not be pretty or perfect but strong and ready for the water. Cosmetics is the easiest and cheapest to fix in my opinion. I want a boat that is small enough to be able to singe hand, yet sturdy enough to handle what the big blue will throw at her. I am currently in the Puget sound area, which I consider to be perfect to learn the ropes. I have ambitions to sail up to Canada, onto Alaska, and down the west coast, hang out in south america for a bit, head through the panama canal, back up the east coast, and eventually with no specific time line end up in Nova Scotia. I have dreamed of this trip since I was 7. I am an average (well as far as average a crazy nonstop traveler can be) hard working guy. I am hoping to find a stout older boat for around $5000 or less that is Ocean ready. I almost bought a bayliner, but thought twice after remembering that even in the motor boat world, what a POS! I come humbly hoping to learn what are some sturdy affordable models to keep my eye out for. I obviously plan on getting some sailing lessons and volunteering to crew some races after I get a bit of experience to sharpen my wits and be aware of whats necessary to survive Poseidon's wrath.
Thanks in advance.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Read atomvoyages.com - carefully, especially the parts about refit and equipment. You can buy a Pearson Triton for $5k (or less) but that doesn't mean you should take it offshore without forethought. Also check out cruisinglealea.com, they are members here.

For contrast, I have a friend who spent a lot of time re-coring wet deck, building storm shutters and re-doing the interior of a Triton, only to lose his rig when a swage failed coming down the CA coast.


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## appick (Jan 20, 2014)

There are plenty of boats around that can be bought for your price and under. The trick is going to be finding the ones worth buying. Things like a soggy deck aren't really that bad of a repair job but scare a lot of people away. If you are looking in this price range you will not find something "ocean ready". You might find something that with some cleaning and work can run and sail the bays and coast, but there is a huge difference between that and passage making ready.

Don't get me wrong I want to encourage you to do this but it will be difficult. There will be loads more work than you originally thought when you bought the boat. You will need to learn to be your own mechanic, fiberglass repair guy, seamstress, splicer, painter, rigger ect. All can be done, but it takes practice to get good. 

Anything in your price range you are going to want to go over every cm of the rig. Even then you may just want to replace it before you go. The plus side is that the prestrectched dyneema being used for rigging now days is very DIY friendly and easy to repair. 

Get some good books about boat maintenance, diesel repair, fiberglass work, knots and splicing, and start messing around with boats. I'd look for older 1960-1970's boats. Many sit forgotten or unused for years. With a little work they make great coastal cruising boats. 

Just remember BE CAREFUL! You're putting your life in your and your fiance's own hands, so take it seriously. Having a boat in good condition with the engine and rig in good working order is a big part of being safe.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I would spend $5k on the safety and life support equipment alone, to make a trip like that. Some of which, would be fitting out a boat that sold that inexpensively.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

jimh1991 said:


> I am sorry if there is a thread similar to this one, I couldn't find it even with google. 100s of similar threads here
> 
> I am hoping to find a stout older boat for around $5000 or less that is Ocean ready. Snap out of it
> 
> Good luck!


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> I would spend $5k on the safety and life support equipment alone, to make a trip like that. Some of which, would be fitting out a boat that sold that inexpensively.


I bet you spent more than $5k


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

As you can already see, you will get innumerable "Ata boy" and "you're :;$& crazy and even stupider" comments on this one here. There are guys (and gals) here that'll sail with not much more than duct tape for shrouds and others that think a Hinkley Burmuda 40 is a small poorly fitted boat for this sort of thing.
IMO, your biggest issue is going to be price and condition. Anyone who has maintained a decent ocean ready boat is going to want 6-10k regardless of cosmetics most places. And most the are under that need a repower, or new sails and rigging which is why they are selling them that cheap.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> I bet you spent more than $5k


Could be. Epirb, liferaft, stocked ditch bag, emergency gear, MOM, had to be 5k alone.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

You are not likely to find anything ready to go offshore for $5k. However you might find something that needs some work and will be OK for some cruising in the Puget Sound area and that you can fix up as time and money permit. It will also allow you to acquire some experience and maybe rethink what kind of boat you want for your extended trip.


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## jimh1991 (May 19, 2015)

I guess I should clarify. Looking for models that can be had to saftely sail around the sound, and maybe victoria bc, that will be able to be outfitted for ocean going. If I was crazy I'd be ok with wasting my life as a wage slave to support the corporate jerks who rule america. No thanks, I'll travel instead. I want to get a boat I can grow into with my abilities, not be looking for a new boat in a year or so. I can rebuild any engine as I've been rubber tramping for a few years, grew up a farm boy. I think outboards are better than inboards for salt from my motor boat days. A lot of people spend entirely too much money just because they can. I know a guy who spent over $10k to ride his bike across the country, I did it for less than $700. If you have more sense than money a lot can be accomplished, if you don't you will be paying guys like me to fix your ****.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Your seas and cruising grounds dictate a pretty stout boat. How minimalist a life would you want to lead? For 2 people (and JUST) two people, I think a Mariah 31 is a great boat that can handle most anything big blue will throw at you. Finding one at a low price is tough...and also remember, you'll need to upgrade near everything on it! Some advice would be to upgrade the electronics *LAST*.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

you should note the boat budget will be about 1/2 of what you have set aside and 1/2 for refit repair ... of course this also can vary ... i have done great scrounging old parts at boat yards and alot of DIY and used market
this being said some areas it is not worth buying used or scrounging like standing and running rig
Bill
SV Rangatira


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## jimh1991 (May 19, 2015)

Thanks for all the great advice! Minimal is key, because having a bunch of stuff clutters the mind and soul. I love and embrace a minimal life style. The more simple the better! I guess the big money guys will consider my type of sailor scurge or sea blight, but that's a ok with me


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

Atomvoyages is a great resource for "small boats that can take you anywhere". But for 5k it will have to be small. You might find an Albin Vega 27, Contessa 26, Rawson 30, Cascade 29, Pearson Triton etc. for around what you are have, but as others have said, they will most likely need work. I totally agree with the suggestion that you put the ocean passage part of your plan on the back burner for now, find a boat that you can sail around the Sound, and have fun. There are plenty of places to explore right in your backyard.


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## jimh1991 (May 19, 2015)

My bud has a cal 34 that is floating that I'm sure will need everything aside from a mast he will do for less than a grand for me. Any input on those? If I get a fixer upper how much can I realisticly expect to spend on getting her back to useable? I guess she sails, but lets assume she needs a full over haul.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

Cal 34s have crossed oceans, they weren't made to, but they can. I'll throw some numbers out off the top of my head....if you do things on the cheap....New Sails $3000 (jib and main). New standing rigging $1500. New thru hulls and sea cocks $1000. Cheap VHF radio with GPS and AIS $350, new sheets and halyards $500. ...where we at now? about 6.5k? Add in a bunch of elbow grease too. But I didnt mention Life raft, EPIRB, etc. ...and these are just ballpark figures. Im sure others will correct me.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

jimh1991 said:


> My bud has a cal 34 that is floating that I'm sure will need everything aside from a mast he will do for less than a grand for me. Any input on those? If I get a fixer upper how much can I realisticly expect to spend on getting her back to useable? I guess she sails, but lets assume she needs a full over haul.


some cals are good others not so depending on the year
spend a few buck for a survey if you can or get a friend who really knows the boat to look with you
Salts here in victoria always have some good old boats up for sale 
and they make sure they are at least seaworthy prior to sale


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## jimh1991 (May 19, 2015)

Its 1974, and I assume a pos. Salts? Do you have a web Link? Trying to figure if I would be better off with a more together boat. It is anchored off shore so to even look at it I will have to pay a tug to get me out there, and if I buy it tow it back to the marina. Im also looking at some catalina 27's. the problem is I heard a rumor that Seattle and Everett may impose a 32ft min for live aboards. That would be awful because I'm sure it would take atleast a year to be compitent enough to head twords south America.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

jimh1991 said:


> Its 1974, and I assume a pos. Salts? Do you have a web Link? Trying to figure if I would be better off with a more together boat. It is anchored off shore so to even look at it I will have to pay a tug to get me out there, and if I buy it tow it back to the marina. Im also looking at some catalina 27's. the problem is I heard a rumor that Seattle and Everett may impose a 32ft min for live aboards. That would be awful because I'm sure it would take atleast a year to be compitent enough to head twords south America.


SALTS Sail and Life Training Society - Buy a Boat


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

A good old PNW built sturdy boat that could be a good liveaboard is a Rawson polithouse. will likely cost more than 5K.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

small boat but well appointed and fully equiped halman 20 for sale in Sidney BC 1981 Halman 20 Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
with some haggleing it might be had for $5000


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## jimh1991 (May 19, 2015)

Thanks for all the input! I have been looking at columbia 26ft MKII, they seem to have a good reputation for cheaper ocean going craft. There are a lot of them around me too. Do any of you have experience with these boats?


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

jimh1991 said:


> Thanks for all the input! I have been looking at columbia 26ft MKII, they seem to have a good reputation for cheaper ocean going craft. There are a lot of them around me too. Do any of you have experience with these boats?


i had one .. they are built like tanks
not the best for big water though
and prone to wet deck cores
also a lot of freeboard and wind drag


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## jimh1991 (May 19, 2015)

I might go put money down on one, will I be able to rig it out to be safe sailing no too far off of the coast down from alaska to panama? I will be harbor hopping and sailing for about 3 to 5 days straight at the most. Get to panama, then back up around into the gulf of mexico, check out the florida keys, shoot over to tha Bahamas for a bit, cross back to Florida, than harbor hop my way up to canada on the east coast.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

there is a bit of big wild water between vancouver island and the queen charlottes
also the pacific coast of washington and oregon is very exposed farther south don't know


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Some dude from Russia sailed practically around the world in a 'POS' San Juan he picked up approx. $500 so I bet you can also. :laugher

I wished people stop calling other people's boat 'POS' as when you go to sell yours maybe that's the name your boat will be called! 

Wish you a lot of luck dreaming of sailing on a 'POS' budget... :laugher


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

jimh1991 said:


> My bud has a cal 34 that is floating that I'm sure will need everything aside from a mast he will do for less than a grand for me. Any input on those? If I get a fixer upper how much can I realisticly expect to spend on getting her back to useable? I guess she sails, but lets assume she needs a full over haul.


Tenoch's numbers are about right for new sails and rigging. Could maybe save a little on the sails by doing your own with sailrite kits.

Plus side would be, at ~$7.5k only a little over your budget but you would come out with a boat in very nice shape, and a heck of a lot more boat than a Columbia 26-II or a Triton. To add to Tenoch's repair/replace list: a) does the inboard run - it's probably an Atomic 4, they are usually resurrectable and parts are cheap; no you can't use a boat that size with an OB b) keel bolt condition c) rudder/rudder post

Ronnie Simpson took a Cal 2-27 to New Zealand and swears by it (and yes he lost his rig in Hawaii due to a new part failure!). Lapworth new what he was doing.

My advice: post detailed photos of any boat you consider, and follow up with any suggestions for further inpsection. There is a lot of experience on this forum. Start here: Boat Inspection Trip Tips - SailNet Community


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

guitarguy56 said:


> I wished people stop calling other people's boat 'POS' as when you go to sell


POS would make a great boat name, wish it had occurred to me.

Never mind as a quick search says there 518 boats named that already.


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## Mr. Bubs (Aug 21, 2013)




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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Are you involving your GF in the boat shopping process?


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## Mr. Bubs (Aug 21, 2013)

guitarguy56 said:


> Some dude from Russia s̶a̶i̶l̶e̶d̶ practically around the world in a 'POS' San Juan he picked up approx. $500 so I bet you can also. :laugher


You mean drifted. And he only made it to Samoa.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Mr. Bubs said:


> You mean drifted. And he only made it to Samoa.


Further than some of us have made it so far.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

guitarguy56 said:


> Some dude from Russia sailed practically around the world in a 'POS' San Juan he picked up approx. $500 so I bet you can also. :laugher


The point is not that some people who drop $500 on a craigslist special make it a long way safely - rather, that a significant proportion of people who do so, do _not_ make it safely.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

zedboy said:


> The point is not that some people who drop $500 on a craigslist special make it a long way safely - rather, that a significant proportion of people who do so, do _not_ make it safely.


It was a 'pun' and not to insinuate anyone who buys such a craft can and ever does make any voyage...


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## jimh1991 (May 19, 2015)

I have been combining through this amazing site and have found a wealth of information. I am taking a vacation day tomorrow to go look at some boats and marinas. Yes the lady is involved, the boat she picked was on land and had a rotten transom, so I will be the main decision maker in the process. She doesn't care, long as it is atleast a little more comfortable than a cab over camper. We traveled with one of those for a while until I got a 28ft rig, which is ironicly larger than any apartment we have lived in over in NY. I just don't want a wood boat or a total rebuild. My old navy sailor friend claims any boat can survive if it is rigged and sailed properly, and has suggested I start getting into dinghy racing. Thanks for all the insight. If it makes any difference she is Russian, and I am a first gen american farm boy from a crazy slavic family. Our skin is slighlty thicker than most.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> I would spend $5k on the safety and life support equipment alone, to make a trip like that. Some of which, would be fitting out a boat that sold that inexpensively.


I have been cruising , mostly full time, for over 40 years, and have never spent anywhere near that kind of money on safety or life support equipment ( except food) . Don't let this kind of negative, false advice discourage you. With resourcefulness it can, and has very often been done, on a shoe string budget.
If you are cruising colder latitudes, good insulation and a good, controlable airtight wood stove can turn your boat from a miserable place to be, to the most comfortable accommodation you will ever find. Don't underestimate the importance of these priorities.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

white74 said:


> small boat but well appointed and fully equiped halman 20 for sale in Sidney BC 1981 Halman 20 Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
> with some haggleing it might be had for $5000


I have several friends in BC with good boats for sale for that price.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> I have been cruising , mostly full time, for over 40 years, and have never spent anywhere near that kind of money on safety or life support equipment


How much did your life raft and epirb cost?



> Don't let this kind of negative, false advice discourage you.


Be sure you get a good idea where Brent is coming from in general, before you accept his advice as well.

You get what you pay for here.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

This kind of discussion happens often enough that I probably should have been able to respond sooner. People have been asking me for recommendation for a $5,000 distance pocket cruiser for decades now. I have usually concluded that for most folks, a $5,000 pocket distance cruiser does not exist, and if it once did, with time it is getting rarer and rarer. But it is the difficulty of finding such a rare gem that has captured my imagination. 

When you think about it, $5,000 is a tiny price for a boat that is essentially sound, or close enough to being sound that it can be fixed up to be sound for an investment in parts and materials that is perhaps twice its initial value. In my mind that would by necessity include a re-buildable engine, a serviceable mast, boom, and deck hardware, a marginally functional interior…in other words, a boat which is intact enough to be worth rebuilding. 

Complicating things further is that very few $5,000 boats are of a design that is reasonably well suited for long distance cruising. Boats of the same age and size, which were purposefully designed with the intention of being used for distance cruising pretty much demand prices that are minimally two or three or four times that price, even in very rough condition. 

These kinds of discussions usually focus on Vigor’s recommended list of small cruisers, or on 1960’s era racer-cruisers like the Triton, Bristol 27, Vega, or Ariel. While many folk put a near religious quantity of faith in these boats, in my experience, that faith should be tempered with a great deal of skepticism. Many of these boats were really mediocre cruisers when new, and after 40 to 60 years of use, more often than not their fiberglass hulls are badly fatigued, their decks soggy to the point of greatly reduced strength, their hull deck joints, rudders, keel connections are becoming past the point of reliability, their electrical and plumbing systems are shot, and cumulatively, even if they are a marginally suitable design, these boats are generally past the point of being useful for offshore passage making. And as these boats continue to age their hulls are getting weaker and more of their systems and components are getting past the point of being salvageable so of the few that were suitable a few decades back, the remaining number continues to dwindle. 

But while I say that this is the case with most of $5,000 boats, (if I have not lost you yet) I do not mean to imply that it is true of all inexpensive boats. And that is the intriguing element to me. 

As I approach things in life, I spent time thinking about critical criteria to be used to narrow the field of options to a range of reasonable choices. While other may argue with these, from my perspective I would think that these are some reasonable minimums even if they eliminate some old favorites: 
	Minimum displacement(for one and possibly two): 7,000 lbs (Any less than this, it is difficult to carry enough gear, supplies, and consumables to be able to make long passages. My ideal minimum displacement for two is closer to 10,000) 
	Minimum water line length: 21 feet (Any less and its nearly impossible to have enough displacement and still sail decently across a broad range of conditions. My ideal minimum, waterline length for two people is closer to 30 feet.) 
	Minimum ratio of waterline length to length overall: Waterline roughly 80% or more of the length on deck. (Longer overhangs tend to hurt motion comfort and pound in a seaway) 
	Minimum sail area (standing sail plan with 100% foretriangle): L/D (Length/displacement ratio): something over 15.5 (less standing sail area requires very large, inefficient overlapping sails for light air which means carrying a larger sail inventory and makes for a harder boat to handle.) 
	Ballast to displacement ratio: over 32%with more better than less (my ideal ratio is closer to 40%. Any more than that begins to lessen carrying capacity, and less makes for a boat that is low on stability). 

Other inherent features that I would consider critical. 
	Sloop rig: In the boat sizes and the price range being considered, a sloop rig is likely to offer the best mix of ease of handling, ease of maintenance, and sailing ability. It potentially gives up a little in terms of quick conversion to a storm rig.
	Inward flange deck joint: Bolted, inward facing flange hull to deck joints offer the easiest way of achieving a maximum strength, minimal fatigue, minimal exposure to external damage, hull to deck joint. 
	Inboard engine: Outboards tend to be less reliable, rely more often on expensive proprietary parts are more prone to damage in heavy conditions, and are useless in heavier conditions or a short chop since they are in and plucked out of the water as the boat pitches. Outboards in wells are the worst of all worlds. Inboards tend to be agricultural and industrial in nature and so simpler and less expensive to maintain. 
	Space for adequate tankage: I don’t believe that a boat needs large permanent fuel and water tanks. Frankly, both liquids go bad over time so too much tankage is wasteful, but there needs to be adequate volume and weight carrying capacity for adequate fuel and water tanks to make the longest passage that you anticipate (maybe 60-70 days on a small boat) with extra reserves. 
	Centerboard: This one is probably controversial but its one that I feel strongly about. There are many reasons that shoal draft is especially critical for a small cruising boat, even if the initial sailing venue is pretty deep. Besides for the obvious navigational advantages, the ability to anchor in shallower water potentially allows the small boat to find a sheltered corner of a harbor to anchor, and to use a smaller less effective type of dinghy. It allows smaller boats to take short-cuts that a deeper boat can’t take reducing passage time. 
But the biggest advantage to a centerboard is the ability to balance the rig and reduce the loads on the helm, allowing the windvane to work more efficiently and taking a smaller toll on the crew members. With the board down, leeway is minimized and windward ability enhanced. Those abilities greatly increase the likelihood of beating off a lee shore, or safely heaving-to. 
	Adequate sail lockers: Cruising requires a lot of stuff. Spare anchors, lines, fenders, maybe an inflatable dinghy, sails, extra tankage, harbor awnings, and a whole bunch of small items which cumulatively take a lot of volume. 
	Adequate ventilation potential: Few older boats were built with enough ventilation to be comfortable in hot climates. The design of the boat needs to such that adequate operable water tight ports and hatches can be installed. 
	One good sea berth even if it is a convertible: This is another one of those “you can’t please everyone” items, but for me, a safe, sturdy, comfortable seaberth for half the crew is essential. Sleep is hard enough to get during a passage. 

Things that I would like to have:
	External bolt-on ballast: This one is also likely to be controversial, but to me, the trade off is between having a bolt-on keel that is quantum times more likely to survive a hard hit with a hard object, vs. the extra maintenance of having to replace keel bolts every 20-30 years. 
	Outboard rudder: This is a nice to have but pretty unlikely to find. The nice things about an outboard rudder is the reliability, ease of inspection, maintenance and replacement, the ability to use a simple (possibly home made) vane actuated steering system employing a trailing edge mounted, counter balanced trim tab. That also permits the use of a very light duty autopilot that uses the trim tab to turn the rudder and so uses less electricity. 
	Deep bilge sump. 

Deal killers:
	Outward flange or shoebox hull to deck joint: These are much more difficult to build strongly enough since there is inherently less faying (gluing/sealant) surfaces. They are much more prone to movement and so leaks and fatigue. On older boats, where decades fatigue has done its damage, these are much more likely to be a point of failure in survival conditions. They are also much more prone to hidden damage over years of docking. 
	D/L over 350: Once a boat gets to a D/L over 350 it is hard to carry enough sail area to keep a boat like that going in light to moderate conditions, which is much of what coastal portions of passage making often includes. It can be done but on a small boat this means a lot of trade offs, it implies carrying much larger sails, which implies more frequent sail changes or a trade off of much slower passage times which requires carrying more supplies and stuff, which creates a vicious cycle of more consumable weight leading to slower passages, so more consumable weight added, and then even slower passages. The other downside is in heavy air. Heavy displacement for its length hulls tend to harder to move through the water than a more moderate displacement boat. In order to carry enough sail in heavy weather, the boat needs a lot of stability, and since small cruising boats should ideally have very shallow draft, and so to get that kind of stability requires a mix of a whole lot of form stability and/or a whole lot of ballast, neither of which very good for a long distance cruiser. The form stability is a negative in terms of motion comfort, and ultimate stability. The large amount of ballast limits carrying capacity since its using weight capacity that could better be used to carry consumables or allow better performance. 

Minimum Equipage that I would recommend: 
	Windvane steering system
	Mainsail with two or three rows of slab reefing, 140% genoa, 120% genoa, working jib, storm jib, and downwind sail(s). 
	Jacklines, inflatable PFD/harness
	Man overboard pole (if there are multiple people) 
	LED nav and maybe interior lighting
	GPS Chart Plotter with AIS with internal charts (and paper charts) for all areas that you are likely to go, 
	SSB
	VHF with DSC.
	Solar charging with enough capacity to keep battery bank charged to permit operation of lights (nav, and interior), GPS Chart Plotter with AIS, SSB, and VHF with DSC. 
	Adequate water tank capacity for 1.5 times the longest passage that you intend to make. (Can be temporary tanks such as a bladder) 
	Adequate fuel to be able to motor minimally between 150-300 miles. 
	A gimbaled stove. 
	Light and heavy air sails and particularly the ability to quickly rig storm sails
	A dinghy that can be easily and securely stored for long passage without impeding the ability to move around the boat, or take up too much valuable storage areas. 
	Really top quality clothing that is capable of keeping you dry and warm. 

Personal preferences (As if the above are not personal preferences ). 
I personally would not want to waste space on refrigeration and maybe not even an ice box. That is easier for me to say as vegetarian. But as a practical reality refrigeration increases the boats need for power sources, is high cost and high maintenance, and occupies space better used for compact storage. 

I personally would prefer tiller steering for its simplicity, low cost, ease of repair and replacement, the ability to steer from anywhere in the cockpit with a tiller extension, the easier windvane steering installation, the ability to steer with my knees freeing my hands to do other things, and the ability to fold it out of the way at anchor. 

I personally would prefer a small diesel to a gas engine not because of the fears of gas engines so prevalent in the court of public opinion these days, but because gasoline is less stable is so is more likely to become unusable over a long passage or otherwise being carried for a long period. That said, my 1939 Stadel cutter had a 2 cyl. gas Universal Blue Jacket (half of an Atomic 4) that was a super little engine and extremely easy to work on. 

I personally with a slightly bigger budget I would think of building a boat, ala Anne Hill and her “Voyaging on a small budget”. It would probably be glass over plywood for a mix of low cost, lighter weight to strength, and ease and speed of construction. (If I was a decent welder I would probably use aluminum, but I am not much of a welder) Unfortunately, you can’t build a small distance cruiser this cheaply. 



If I had to pick a few good boats which fit this description, the 1960’s era, Halsey Herreshoff designed Bristol 29 CB would probably be at the top of my list. Second would be the S&S designed Tartan 27. I might also include boats like the Pearson Wanderer, Columbia 31, Soverel 28, 1960’s era Morgan Tiger Cub 28 (CB) and Morgan 30-1(CB). 

There are boats which do not match the above that I would consider (if you could find one in that price range which probably would be unlikely) like an H-28, Mull Chico, Seawind I, Ericson Independence, Farr Noelex 30, Shannon 28, Paceship Northwind (would need a lot of modifications), Cheoy Lee- Luders Offshore 28.

Anyway these are my initial thoughts on minimal cost distance cruising boats. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> How much did your life raft and epirb cost?
> 
> Never had a life raft. I prefer a steel hull which is far better and safer than a plastic boat with a life raft. In the fastnet race of 79 ,the presence of life rafts aboard cost many lives, from boats which were later found empty and still floating ,while the life rafts people has taken to had cost many lives..
> 
> ...


Never had a life raft.My steel hull is far safer than a plastic boat with a life raft and epirb. Once bought an epirb for around $200. Spots are around $169. 
Where I am coming from is 40 years of full time living aboard, mostly in a cold damp climate, and mostly full time cruising, 9 single handed Pacific crossings, 9 trips to Haida Gwai and back, and designing and building over 3 dozen boats, most of which have done a lot of completely trouble free sea voyages, and semi retiring to cruise and live aboard since my mid 20s.
Despite decades of living aboard very comfortably in BC, I have had critics who live in Florida and the Bahamas, tell me I have it all wrong when it comes to comfort aboard in a cold climate.
There is nothing I enjoy more that finding a simple, practical and effective solution to someones seemingly expensive and complex problems. And I do it for free!
Is anyone dense enough to expect better and more hands on practical solutions from a $150 an hour, self promoted 'Expert" who has never lived aboard, never cruised long term, never got his hands dirty building a boat, never come up with a single innovation solution to help resolve the two biggest hurdles facing a beginning boater , time and money, in his entire land dwelling life, but makes a hobby out if throwing expensive disinformation, to discourage those who don't have a lot of money, from considering the cruising life? 
"You only get what you pay for " is the marine version of the used car salesman's line, which has coned a lot of would be cruisers out of their cruising funds.
A lot of abysmally bad cars and equally bad and expensive advice have been sold with that self serving line. Buy it, and you rule out your chances of getting away quickly and affordably.

So how are your Briex shares doing? Or your Bernie Made off investments? If you paid a lot for them, then they automatically have to be good, don't they?


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Jeff_H said:


> This kind of discussion happens often enough that I probably should have been able to respond sooner. People have been asking me for recommendation for a $5,000 distance pocket cruiser for decades now. I have usually concluded that for most folks, a $5,000 pocket distance cruiser does not exist, and if it once did, with time it is getting rarer and rarer. But it is the difficulty of finding such a rare gem that has captured my imagination.
> 
> When you think about it, $5,000 is a tiny price for a boat that is essentially sound, or close enough to being sound that it can be fixed up to be sound for an investment in parts and materials that is perhaps twice its initial value. In my mind that would by necessity include a re-buildable engine, a serviceable mast, boom, and deck hardware, a marginally functional interior&#8230;in other words, a boat which is intact enough to be worth rebuilding.
> 
> ...


Excellent points , well made!
However one should bear in mind that the question was asked by someone contemplating cruising the NW, my lifelong stomping ground. One should bear in mind that it includes a lot of protected waters, where one can enjoy years of minimalist cruising , while adding gradually to the boat, so it doesn't have to be Cape Horn ready from the outset. The more time you has to acquire what you need, the better your odds of finding a deal on things, and the cheaper it will be.

Some of the best hull deck joints I have seen on plastic boats are on the Rawson 30 and the Fraser 41. It involves the hull simply continued up to become the bulwark and the edge of the deck also turned up, and the two sandwiched together, to become the bulwark.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> Never had a life raft......


I certainly don't care if you don't have one, or if the OP doesn't have one, but the vast majority would have one for the OP's intended cruising plans and they are expensive. Therefore, the point that I made.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> ...However one should bear in mind that the question was asked by someone contemplating cruising the NW.....


Check again. The plan starts in the PNW, then cruising to Alaska, then to South America, through the canal and up the east coast to Nova Scotia.

Big difference.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Ok, so minne clearly has it in for Brent for some reason. Whatever. I second Jeff's comments, as I love the flexibility if the centerboard. I wouldn't chuck some of the old full keel stuff out though. The Tritons and some of the alberg designs will get you there as well, just not into thinish water and if you've got time and energy even soaked decks can be recored with elbow grease. See the good old boat series on refitting an alberg 35. Again- I think your budget is light to go now, but if you buy cheap, kick around home for a few years doing a steady refit, I think it can be done.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

No thing for Brent. I'm responding to his post that described expensive safety gear as "negative, false advice". I acknowledged that there are different views on this, but before the OP took his advice, they should understand his perspective on these things in general. I have been around long enough to have a sense of it already. As subsequently noted, he's never had a life raft, even on reportedly 9 Pacific single handed crossings. All I'm suggesting is that perspective be kept in mind, when taking the advice that one can go cheap. 

I'm perfectly fine with all the above doing whatever they like.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> No thing for Brent. I'm responding to his post that described expensive safety gear as "negative, false advice". I acknowledged that there are different views on this, but before the OP took his advice, they should understand his perspective on these things in general. I have been around long enough to have a sense of it already. As subsequently noted, he's never had a life raft, even on reportedly 9 Pacific single handed crossings. All I'm suggesting is that perspective be kept in mind, when taking the advice that one can go cheap.
> 
> I'm perfectly fine with all the above doing whatever they like.


Got it, but as a bystander, it certainly comes through that you think he's FOS and it seems to engender a bit of anger that I haven't seen in many of your other posts. Generally I've found your tone quite reasonable. This seems to be a departure. 
That being said, safety gear is one of those things that is fairly individual. I've done a ton of kayaking and have seen people expedition laden for day paddles and others that were woefully unprepared in my estimation for expeditions, but they went and came back over and over again. I think there is a baseline of good sense, but I don't think there is a set standard that everyone agrees on.


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## jimh1991 (May 19, 2015)

Thanks all for the great advice.I bought a boat. She's in pretty good shape the sails are nice, had new rigging done a few years ago and hadn't been used much since. It needs little things like the 12v gone through (easy peasy lemon squeeze) the teak refinished. Silly easy stuff. Its a Columbia 26 mkII. Idk if it will be used for the grand adventure, but big enough to live nicely in the sound. I will probably get a job in a boat yard and really get to know sailboats and sailing. Most likely fix her up and learn, then sell her for a profit and get a bigger boat. Idk yet, but this should be an epic summer in the sound


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

jimh1991 said:


> Thanks all for the great advice.I bought a boat.


Right on, welcome to the asylum. Have fun now with the boat that meets your needs, and if you end up selling it in a while and choosing something else for the next stage, it won't be too hard - lots more people buying small boats at the cheap end of the market.

I believe there is a pithy old folk saying in French (from the Ontario Francophone branch of our family) which is appropriate for such a momentous occasion: *"Pix or it didn't happen!" *


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## jimh1991 (May 19, 2015)

Haha I dont have a digital camera that works  last one I had got lost over a water fall leaning to far over the edge of a face during a backpacking excursion. I have taken some on film, but who knows how long it will take me to get that sucker developed. My family sends me one about once a year, I just have knack for destroying them, and I lost my dslr battery for now.....


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Congratulations on your new boat! Have fun, sail safe but...don't count on that profit thing.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

DRFerron said:


> ..don't count on that profit thing.


Good luck and have fun. And if you somehow do end up turning a profit, I want to know about it. You'd be the first one I've ever heard of that wasn't a builder or broker!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Congratulations on buying your first boat. First boats are always a major leap of faith. The Columbia 26 MK II should be a very good first boat and should make a reasonably good choice for a 26 foot live-aboard. They have a lot of room for a 26 footer of that era, their interior layout is well suited to living aboard if you are very disciplined about what you bring aboard (except for their very small galley and its almost uninsulated ice box). Buying ice for the ice box will get very expense over time and there isn't enough electrical capacity to install a 12 volt refrigeration system. Columbia 26 Mk II's sail reasonably well. Bill Tripp was one of the top designers in the world when he penned the Columbia 26 Mk II. This should be a great platform to develop sailing skills, and learn to repair, upgrade and maintain a boat. 

On the other hand, the Columbia 26 MkII would be a very poor choice for your long term , long distance cruising goals. Columbias of this era were intended as value oriented racer-cruisers. (think Hunter or Catalina of their day) 

They were poorly constructed and not all that well conceived for offshore sailing. While Columbias had pretty heavy glass work, the quality of their glass work was not very good even by the standards of the day and was quite light even by the standards of today. They tended to use a resin rich layups, large amounts of non-directional reinforcing, large percentages of accelerators, and what we now understand to be poor fabric handling techniques. This combination results in a more brittle and fatigue prone laminate. Columbia was a late adopter of internal framing and so these boats flex a lot which greatly increases the likelihood of fatigue, which in turn makes the laminate weaker and more brittle over time and a lot of time has passed. 

The 26 MkII hull to deck joint is an outward flange type joint with minimal surface area. This was a cheap way to build a boat, but not a great way to build a boat, especially for offshore use. This type of joint concentrates loads at the joint and potentially increases the likelihood of a joint failure, which in heavy going would be a real possibility given the poor laminate and associated fatigue issues. The joint could be reinforced from inside but its a very big job, the materials are expensive, and because of other design features of this boat, this is probably not a design for which that effort is warranted. 

From a deferred maintenance standpoint, there are several areas to pay close attention to. This was a very early design with a post hung rudder and the rudder post size and connections were lighter than might be done today, and which were never intended for the high rudder loads that a boat offshore in a storm may encounter. Columbias of this era often have problems with rudder post failures that occurs below the point that the post enters the rudder blade. 

These boats had iron keels with galvanized steel keel bolts. If they have not been replaced already, they are well past their "use by date" and should at least be inspected by dropping the keel and taking a look before you attempt and longer passages. 

These boats used an outboard in a well. That is a very poor set-up for long distance cruising. The engines really take a lot more abuse since the engine lives in the down position, and it represents a place for water to flood the cockpit in a following sea even if the boat does not get pooped (flooded from astern) , and these boats have a very low companionway opening which would allow down-flooding into the cabin in the cockpit fills more than a couple inches. 

For that reason, many of these boats have had the outboard moved to a transom bracket and the outboard well glassed shut, but that is a worse sent up since you cannot reliably motor in heavy conditions or a chop with a transom hung outboard. 

Lastly, you will need to be disciplined about how much money that you put into this boat. Columbia 26 MkII's typically sell for less than $3,000 in really good condition. I don't know what you paid for this boat, but it is pretty easy to go through $3,000 in materials and yard bills doing a fix up project on a boat this size. If you take a job in a boatyard, try to negotiate an employee discount on materials bought through the yard. that could help some since marine mark-ups are pretty high on some items. (Not so much on others). 

I would suggest that you look at this boat as a chance to live cheaply and save money while you are working since it is pretty unlikely that you will make a profit on selling this boat. 

I hope this does not sound too negative. I actually think that this is a good first boat and it should serve you well if you keep your expectations to a reasonable level. 

Good luck,
Jeff


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## jimh1991 (May 19, 2015)

Thanks for all the advice! I doubt I will take this boat off shore, but use it to learn. This is not my first boat, its my fourth. It is my first sailboat though so I am sure there is a learning curve. I dont know, maybe my old man and I have had good luck, but we have turned a profit on every boat we, have had except for his baby which he bought brand new in 1989 and refuses to sell. Also this boat had an atomic 4 in it. The engine is gone, but the shaft and prop along with wiring gouges sect are still there. I might repower her with a little husquvarna diesel if I can find one dirt cheap that has a blown headgasket and needs new rings. Maybe I will just replace the zinc and leave it to the next guy. Im more concerned about hitting the water.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> No thing for Brent. I'm responding to his post that described expensive safety gear as "negative, false advice". I acknowledged that there are different views on this, but before the OP took his advice, they should understand his perspective on these things in general. I have been around long enough to have a sense of it already. As subsequently noted, he's never had a life raft, even on reportedly 9 Pacific single handed crossings. All I'm suggesting is that perspective be kept in mind, when taking the advice that one can go cheap.
> 
> I'm perfectly fine with all the above doing whatever they like.


In 9 Pacific crossings, very few of the boats I encountered had a life raft, or HF radio, certainly not the low budget ones. 
The question seemed to be, getting off the treadmill and cruising while still young, something I did at age 23. What my critics are implying is that advice from someone who has accomplished that is bad advice, compared to advice from those who have never accomplished what they are aspiring to do! 
Young friends keep telling me "Brent you are actually doing it ,have been for decades, and your critics are not, and never have!" 
It is possible, by lining a plastic boat with sheet foam, to make it unsinkable.
Tape an inch of foam to a piece of 1/8th inch steel plate and throw it overboard. It will float. Fibreglass should be much easier, with enough thickness overkill to allow for engine and ballast. I once read in a British magazine about a plastic, foam cored 48 footer which was holed in the English channel, which despite being full of water , wouldn't sink.
An aluminium boatbuilder I know had the same experience with an aluminium sailboat .


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> Check again. The plan starts in the PNW, then cruising to Alaska, then to South America, through the canal and up the east coast to Nova Scotia.
> 
> Big difference.


First get off the treadmill and get some experience. Cruising to Alaska and back is a lot of opportunity to upgrade, and even change boats, if necessary.

The longest journey starts with a single step. Make that first step too complicated and expensive, and the journey will never happen.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I believe there is a pithy old folk saying in French (from the Ontario Francophone branch of our family) which is appropriate for such a momentous occasion: *"Pix or it didn't happen!" *[/QUOTE]

The age of dinosaurs, French revolution, the expansion of the Roman empire, Columbus and Drakes voyages, etc etc, didn't happen, because there are no photos?


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

jimh1991 said:


> Haha I dont have a digital camera that works  last one I had got lost over a water fall leaning to far over the edge of a face during a backpacking excursion. I have taken some on film, but who knows how long it will take me to get that sucker developed. My family sends me one about once a year, I just have knack for destroying them, and I lost my dslr battery for now.....


I checked out the Go-Pro cameras at London drugs . $400
A friend got me one online direct from China. $75. It has a good, waterproof housing I'd take diving with me.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

If the transom rake is good, it is easy to install an outboard rudder on any boat, and make it super tough. If I remember right, a Columbia has a good transom rake for that option.


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