# Are there any boats to completely avoid?



## Mattbastard (Jun 18, 2017)

I'm new to sailing and am in the research phase of yacht ownership. Currently enrolled in ASA 101, then later this fall I'll take 103 and 104. After that I'll be in the market to purchase but for the time being I'm doing a lot of research on what's out there, and what to look out for. Thus far the consensus for my range (24'-35', 70's-80's built) is basically that there isn't an inherently "bad" boat but every one was designed to fit certain parameters of performance (cruising, bluewater, racing, etc...) with amenities ranging from seat cushions to live-aboard capable. I know there's things to look out for like blistering or soft spots, but generally things check out for the most part. Just about everything I'm seeing here on the left coast is around $10K. Be advised, I'm painting with very broad strokes here and I'm aware of it. I must have sifted through 500 boats in the last couple months across Craigslist and Yachtworld. 

Now, every time I see one I like I google it to see what the masses say about it. Most of the time I hear something along the lines of what I mentioned above, but I never hear anyone straight up say "STAY AWAY FROM THAT MODEL!". This got me thinking, does such a boat exist? I'm presuming that time has taken enough course that if a boat was made in my era that such an afflicted vessel would have been subjected to "natural selection" by now and would be in a boat yard as a home for varmints or the bottom of the ocean.

If you're familiar with vehicles from that era, think Yugo.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Most of us want to avoid saying "stay away from that model," mostly because we don't want to offend owners who might also lurk here.

Opinions are just that... everyone has one.

Compare 12 boats from different manufacturers that are the same length, age, condition, and general features.... You'll see a trend that some are "priced" higher than others. Generally speaking it reflects the overall opinons of those boats, based on people voting with their real dollars...

Some examples of huge differences in perceived quality for boats made around the same time...
Island Packet 27
Seaward 26rk
Catalina 270
Beneteau 281
Precision 28
Compac yachts 27
Hunter 27-2
Macgregor 26x
Alerion 26
J92S (probably not fair to pick this boat, as its really 29 feet, but the J80 is also on the small side for comparison at 26 feet, and both are racers)

You'll quickly get a sound picture of relative perceived quality of boat looking through that list and examining prices. You'll also get a pretty good feel for what makes a "premium" build.

Thin of it like this... difference in build qualities between Ford, Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, Honda, Lexus, Acura, Lincoln, and Cadillac. They all make family sedans... some are just um [subjectively] better quality. Also that quality might be very much different in the eye of the beholder.

So I'm not coming on here and telling you not to buy a Chevy for fear of insulting hundreds of owners of Chevy cars here, that frankly might have just as good or better luck with their car than my Lincoln (no I don't own a Lincoln its an example - I'm very much a Chevy owner - 156,000 miles worth).


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

STAY AWAY FROM ANY BOAT THAT IS A PROJECT!

Spend your time and money sailing a boat that someone else has maintained and upgraded properly.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

eherlihy said:


> STAY AWAY FROM ANY BOAT THAT IS A PROJECT!
> 
> Spend your time and money sailing a boat that someone else has maintained and upgraded properly.


^^^This.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

SHNOOL said:


> Most of us want to avoid saying "stay away from that model," mostly because we don't want to offend owners who might also lurk here.


Hunters... all of them ;-)


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## Mark F. Sanderson (Aug 12, 2016)

Albin Vega The Albin Vega 27 Sailboat : (do a google search, I cannot post links now) In the 70's and 80's I sailed a number of them in the Watergate Yachting Center ClearLake Texas. I lived and sailed on an Albin Ballad at the time. I can say for sure that:
1) Very well built
2) Not a lot of room inside compared to more modern designs
3) Sails very well.
4) There is an active owner groups that can help with ownership and etc

I remember that we'd head out when the wind was blowing hard . . . everyone else is reefing their main and we're still sailing full sail. It's light air performance wasn't much to brag about, but as I remember it wasn't terrible. If you want an easy sailing boat that as strong as the proverbial brick #$!*house - this is one to consider. 

Mark


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

bucaneer
chrysler
chriscraft

more problem than they are worth. Even when new, they were marginal sailing vessels, and worse construction.


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## JoCoSailor (Dec 7, 2015)

kd3pc said:


> bucaneer
> chrysler
> chriscraft
> 
> more problem than they are worth. Even when new, they were marginal sailing vessels, and worse construction.


ouch!!!


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Until you understand the extreme differences between boats within your set parameters, 24'-35', I would stay away from all boats...

Take some time looking, spending time around and on many different types of boats, and learning more about how you hope to use a boat.


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## Mattbastard (Jun 18, 2017)

Mark F. Sanderson said:


> Albin Vega The Albin Vega 27 Sailboat : (do a google search, I cannot post links now) In the 70's and 80's I sailed a number of them in the Watergate Yachting Center ClearLake Texas. I lived and sailed on an Albin Ballad at the time. I can say for sure that:
> 1) Very well built
> 2) Not a lot of room inside compared to more modern designs
> 3) Sails very well.
> ...


I've heard this before about the AV27. That that one fella who took a free one around the Americas show's what she's capable of even when neglected. My only beef was he said a lot of water got in. I'm hoping it's because of neglect, not by design.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

kd3pc said:


> bucaneer
> chrysler
> chriscraft
> 
> more problem than they are worth. Even when new, they were marginal sailing vessels, and worse construction.


An S&S designed Chris Craft is a marginal sailor?


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## timangiel (Sep 8, 2006)

RegisteredUser said:


> Until you understand the extreme differences between boats within your set parameters, 24'-35', I would stay away from all boats...
> 
> Take some time looking, spending time around and on many different types of boats, and learning more about how you hope to use a boat.


Best advice on the whole thread

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I have owned Shiva, a Contest 36s for 32 years.... and sailed the boat over 40K miles.... and I am not an expert.... despite know a lot about THIS particular boat. I can recommend it... but haven't much to say about any other boats other than my personal opinion about functionality/architecture.

But who has enough experience to know the lemons out there???? a broker? a rigger? a mechanic? a sail maker? Not me...


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

jorgenl said:


> Hunters... all of them ;-)


Jorgenl, you'll likely tick off Smacky... and the Cherubini designs are quite good, and rugged, very few argue against that.

We can all throw out specific models of boats that had endless issues. But thinking back, how many of them were completely the designers fault?

the Mac 26x is a great boat, if you want a motor-sailor. Lousy sailing characteristics though.

The Hunter and Mac bashing are tired old mantras... I submit that there are horses for courses.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Stay away from any boat model owned by any ******** troll poster on this thread acting like some boat expert.


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## Turnin Turtle (Jun 25, 2016)

Every boat is a project... even if you buy it new.

Constant need for maintenance and repairs.

The one to avoid is the one without a clear title.


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## Mark F. Sanderson (Aug 12, 2016)

Mattbastard said:


> I've heard this before about the AV27. That that one fella who took a free one around the Americas show's what she's capable of even when neglected. My only beef was he said a lot of water got in. I'm hoping it's because of neglect, not by design.


On our Ballad the stuffing box liked to leak ... not a lot; but it would leak. Fixed and the bilges were pretty dry. They are very tough boats, but certainly not with out their faults. The Vega Owners group are supposed to be pretty helpful group of folks.

Mark


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

SHNOOL said:


> Jorgenl, you'll likely tick off Smacky... and the Cherubini designs are quite good, and rugged, very few argue against that.
> 
> .


Yep - but he did not take the bait. ;-)

They (Hunters) are all death traps ;-)


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

Mattbastard: I think your question is valid, but may I recommend a different approach?

Surfing the net is too exhausting and the information you stumble upon is always questionable. Try to limit your reading to people who have at least attempted to make a serious study of the matter and convey the information in a coherent manner. I recommend that you read the book Your First Sailboat, by Daniel Spurr. Mr. Spurr describes various criteria and to which type of sailor they apply. He then describes many sailboats and details how well the boats fit the criteria. Using that approach, one can fairly easily come up with boat features that are must-have, wanna-have, and must-avoid. From there, a list of must-avoid models can be populated. This list will probably look different for each person who makes one.

I don't remember if it was in Spurr's or one of Casey's books, but there was a very strong admonishment that the first-time sailboat owner should avoid boat hulls made of wood, metal, or concrete.


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## Mattbastard (Jun 18, 2017)

RegisteredUser said:


> Until you understand the extreme differences between boats within your set parameters, 24'-35', I would stay away from all boats...
> 
> Take some time looking, spending time around and on many different types of boats, and learning more about how you hope to use a boat.


Thank you for your input, but I'd like to clarify something.

Spinning this around a bit, I've been a motorcyclist for over two decades. I'd consider myself well versed in many things motorcycling, old and new. Having owned 31 different motorcycles and ridden into the 50's, I've got a pretty good understanding of the quirks that tend to come "genetically" within each brand, generally speaking.

Now, spin this back around to sailboats. I'm not planning on buying anything this moment, but once I'm ASA 103/104 certified I'm certainly going to be in the market. Thus far I've narrowed down my list of needs to full head and galley. Everything else I want is offered on boats smaller but don't have a full head or galley. My sailing goals in the near term are coastal cruises with overnight stays to Catalina, and down Baja. After the hook is set I'll reassess the boats capabilities with my desires and consider something more bluewater capable but initially, my list of needs is pretty concise. What I've seen so far is a minimum of 27' (Catalina 27 or 30) and around here range from $3000 to over $15K.

Your comment says "extreme differences..." Other than how the boat is outfitted (from stripped racer to full head and galley), how the hull is designed (racer, cruiser, bluewater capable, etc...), and how it actually feels under sail, what else needs to be considered?

I ask because your comment has me feeling like I'm never going to be on the water due to lack of experience. With motorcycles, $200 gets you a rental on many of the brands out there, and if you want to own they're cheap enough to flip over the course of a year with minimal losses and ease of title transfer and storage. Boats, not so much IMO.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

OK I will give it a go.

Anything with substantial parts of the boat made of wood, this includes glass sheathed plywood.

Any foam cored hull.

Anything with a teak deck.

Anything with a weird engine or an old Volvo. You may need to do some research on this as some weird engines are just rebadged Perkins or Kubotas and spares are available for those.


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## Mattbastard (Jun 18, 2017)

jwing said:


> Mattbastard: I think your question is valid, but may I recommend a different approach?
> 
> Surfing the net is too exhausting and the information you stumble upon is always questionable. Try to limit your reading to people who have at least attempted to make a serious study of the matter and convey the information in a coherent manner. I recommend that you read the book Your First Sailboat, by Daniel Spurr. Mr. Spurr describes various criteria and to which type of sailor they apply. He then describes many sailboats and details how well the boats fit the criteria. Using that approach, one can fairly easily come up with boat features that are must-have, wanna-have, and must-avoid. From there, a list of must-avoid models can be populated. This list will probably look different for each person who makes one.
> 
> I don't remember if it was in Spurr's or one of Casey's books, but there was a very strong admonishment that the first-time sailboat owner should avoid boat hulls made of wood, metal, or concrete.


Thank you very much for this tip.

As I mentioned above, this is nothing like buying motorcycles. But perhaps after two decades of buying sailboats it'll be just as easy. :devil


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

jorgenl said:


> Yep - but he did not take the bait. ;-)
> 
> They (Hunters) are all death traps ;-)


I chartered a Hunter once on Lake Superior. As soon as we got three miles off shore it sank and we all died. True story.


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## superslomo (Jun 16, 2015)

What do you want to DO with it?

I'd say stay smaller at first, risk less money on it, and see whether you like it. If you own a boat, you can sell it and move up later, once you know more.

Buy something that's local, floating, sailing, and motoring (if it's got a motor) with paperwork intact, being presently used by an owner.

When I was shopping for used motorcycles years ago, there were a lot of listings that mentioned "probably needs carb cleaning, worked good when I put it away, needs battery, don't have the title, but that shouldn't be a problem" where you just knew to run the heck away...

A boat that's been off the water, on stands, baking in the sun and steeping in rainwater... don't buy that.

Buy something that someone cared about, and kept sailing, and you'll be able to start out sailing it with only minimal effort.

Replacing things costs a lot more than buying them in working order... a new motor is thousands of dollars, new sails are potentially the same sort of price.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Mattbastard said:


> ......Other than how the boat is outfitted (from stripped racer to full head and galley), how the hull is designed (racer, cruiser, bluewater capable, etc...), and how it actually feels under sail, what else needs to be considered?......


I've put more than my share of miles on motos, too, so....
The analogy is you're interested in a range from 250cc to 1200cc.

It's what they were designed for and how they will be used. It's all well and it's all good...just know what you really want to do with the boat.
A boat that displaces 15k is going to be much different than one that could be trailered.


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## Mattbastard (Jun 18, 2017)

superslomo said:


> What do you want to DO with it?


Since I'm sharing this hobby with my wife the minimum requirements are full head and galley (at least sink and single burner). We can get by with a cooler for a couple days keeping stuff cold, and a small head that's at least enclosed will work in the short term. This puts me at around 27' minimum depending on manufacturer. To be honest the best boat I've found thus far is a Catalina 270 but I'm still searching.

As a first boat we'll be day and coastal cruisers. Catalina, Ensenada, etc... After a few years of this we'll reassess the hobby and go from there. Bluewater potential (Cabo, Hawaii) more than likely means better boat. I'll cross that bridge after I've got much more experience under sail and with sailboats in general.


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## Mattbastard (Jun 18, 2017)

RegisteredUser said:


> I've put more than my share of miles on motos, too, so....
> The analogy is you're interested in a range from 250cc to 1200cc.
> 
> It's what they were designed for and how they will be used. It's all well and it's all good...just know what you really want to do with the boat.
> A boat that displaces 15k is going to be much different than one that could be trailered.


Good analogy, I can understand that.

To expand on my post above, I'm planning on renting a slip. Trailerable is not an option. Storage in SD is damn near as expensive as a slip would be, and my little car couldn't pull a tooth out of a jack-o-lantern.

Besides, I've always been under the impression that trailerable sailboats are made for lakes, not oceans. I'll be on the ocean exclusively.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

Matt - I think you are overthinking this a bit - this most likely will not be your last boat - so don't worry about making the perfect choice - from what you describe a boat in the 27 -30 ft range would work fine - and just about most production boats would fit the bit - ones made in the 70's and 80's
Catalina 27-30
Cal 29
Ericsons
Hunter 30 = the older design
Lots of good choices - I would just look for one that is taken care of and not a " project" Luckily - these boats are almost a dime /dozen, don't overpay -if someones price is too high and they don't come down - just move on to the next one.


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## wymbly1971 (Nov 26, 2015)

A LOT of great advice so far...

Get something that you actually like (looks, features, whatever). You'll be a lot happier about spending your money and time on a boat you cherish over a dog you can't stand being caught with.

You may find that once you are done your training on presumably larger and larger boats that your preferences and what you want to do with it could change. Your tactic is good; not to be too hasty. Once your training is done, you might find that a larger boat is not much different to handle over a smaller one.

FWIW, I think 27-30 is a great size, for the reasons you list


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Mattbastard said:


> ...
> 
> Besides, I've always been under the impression that trailerable sailboats are made for lakes, not oceans. I'll be on the ocean exclusively.


That is incorrect. Some are listed in this thread:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...1798-best-trailerable-blue-water-cruiser.html


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

Mattbastard said:


> Since I'm sharing this hobby with my wife the minimum requirements are full head and galley (at least sink and single burner). We can get by with a cooler for a couple days keeping stuff cold, and a small head that's at least enclosed will work in the short term. This puts me at around 27' minimum depending on manufacturer. To be honest the best boat I've found thus far is a Catalina 270 but I'm still searching.
> 
> As a first boat we'll be day and coastal cruisers. Catalina, Ensenada, etc... After a few years of this we'll reassess the hobby and go from there. Bluewater potential (Cabo, Hawaii) more than likely means better boat. I'll cross that bridge after I've got much more experience under sail and with sailboats in general.


Look in to the Beneteau First series. A 265, 285, 310, and above, will do you nicely.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Matt: given that you intend to buy a '70's-'80's vintage boat, I don't think you have to avoid any makes or models, so long as its been well-maintained. At that age, any inherent flaws have either been addressed (perpetually leaky decks, undersized fittings, etc.), or will be readily apparent. Also, at that age even the best designed and built boat will be showing her age, and if not well-maintained, will suffer from many of the same maladies as one that was built poorly to begin with.

Find a Catalina 27 or 30 with no deck leaks, relatively new rigging, a reliable engine and non-blown out sails. Sail the heck out of her for a couple of years and learn what is really important to you for how you want to sail (more speed?; more stability? more room below? bigger cockpit? swim platform?), then make your move. If you maintain the Catalina, you will probably be able to get what you paid for her.

Enjoy!


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Matt, sounds like you are local here in SoCal.

If you are planning Baja eventually, you are going to want to find a boat with a good inboard - preferrably a diesel.
Much of what you are paying for in a used sailboat is the engine - trust me, you don't want one that you have to replace ($$$$).
I would suggest looking for a good Cal 29 or Ericson 29 - they are abundant around here, are built well, and are good sailors in both light
and heavy winds, and are easy to sail solo. They also don't have keel bolts to worry about. 

Don't buy the cheapest one you see, but good ones can regularly be had for $8000 - $10,000.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

> That is incorrect. Some are listed in this thread:
> 
> best trailerable blue water cruiser


Thank you Donna!

I cringed reading that. Every time someone limits themselves to non-trailerables I always think NorSea 27. Pretty much defines blue water trailerables.


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## Mattbastard (Jun 18, 2017)

Lazerbrains said:


> Matt, sounds like you are local here in SoCal.
> 
> If you are planning Baja eventually, you are going to want to find a boat with a good inboard - preferrably a diesel.
> Much of what you are paying for in a used sailboat is the engine - trust me, you don't want one that you have to replace ($$$$).
> ...


THANK you! See this is what I'm talking about, something like keel bolts. One of the first "afflictions" I've heard about Catalina's is the "smile". Looking online at the fix/repair seems VERY invasive. I've taken on some pretty monumental projects in my life but supporting a 2000lb lead keel is nowhere near my scope of ability. I do really like the Catalina 27/30, but if there's an option where the keel bolt issue is not possible then I'll steer my interests that way.

How do the Cal and Ericson keels work in those cases? I'm assuming there's some heavy metal in the hull somewhere to add ballast.


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## BigDog72 (Jan 18, 2017)

Mattbastard,
My Ericson 27 has an encapsulated keel. From what I understand, the keel cavity is laid up with the original mold, then filled with ballast, then glassed over. There are no keel bolts to be replaced or checked. There are pros and cons to both bolted keels and encapsulated ones, but I prefer the encapsulated. That and the fact that the other boats I looked at with bolted keels had other issues, led me to get this Ericson. She's been a great boat so far!


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

If you wanted to jump off the deep end, skipping a step...will cross oceans....already in great cruising/training/vacation area.

http://sancarlosyachtsales.com/sail-boats-for-sale?item=3051918

When you get into the small 30s size, you can cram 3 friendly couples into a Catalina weekend cruise. Generally, I think women appreciate cabin space more than guys. Unless she's really into it, a 27 might not get her thru a week of camping/cruising...and wishing it lasted longer.

Personally, I think a 27 is great for one person. I can live on a 27.

A sailing club, offering different boats for use, might be something to look into as a start.

The enthusiasm is cool. Pleasing the wife is paramount.


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## JoCoSailor (Dec 7, 2015)

Mattbastard said:


> Thank you for your input, but I'd like to clarify something.
> 
> Now, spin this back around to sailboats. I'm not planning on buying anything this moment, but once I'm ASA 103/104 certified I'm certainly going to be in the market. Thus far I've narrowed down my list of needs to full head and galley. Everything else I want is offered on boats smaller but don't have a full head or galley. My sailing goals in the near term are coastal cruises with overnight stays to Catalina, and down Baja. After the hook is set I'll reassess the boats capabilities with my desires and consider something more bluewater capable but initially, my list of needs is pretty concise. What I've seen so far is a minimum of 27' (Catalina 27 or 30) and around here range from $3000 to over $15K.
> 
> Your comment says "extreme differences..." Other than how the boat is outfitted (from stripped racer to full head and galley), how the hull is designed (racer, cruiser, bluewater capable, etc...), and how it actually feels under sail, what else needs to be considered?


Mattbastard,
I'm a year or so a head of you when comes to sailing. I have ASA 101, to 104. I've bought a small boat I can trailer and race (Great way to learn how to sail BTW). I'm also a couple years way from buying a keel boat to sail on the Chesapeake Bay. So I've been chartering different boats to get a feel as to how they sail.

I've followed several of these "buying a boat" threads and the thing I don't see much talk about. Is what sail control does it have and from where can you control everything. (I'm sure there a term for this) Here's a couple of examples of what I'm talking about from two boats I've chartered.

One was a newer jeanneau 34. Duel helm, auto pilot. In mast furling main, furling jib. All lines, sheets, and halyards led back to cockpit to just two winches. Add self-tacking jib and the darn thing could have sailed itself. As it was crew was just in the way. Also, there was no jib cars, no traveler. Nothing to make sail adjustment but the outhaul and sheets. I hated the thing my wife loved it.

Contrast that to 38' C&C 115. You have to go on deck to raise the main, with the full battens you had to fight the lazy jacks while raising and lowering it (takes a good helmsman). 7 winches, 3 ways to control jib cars and sail shape, tension adjustment on the jib leech, 16:1 traveler on the mail, hydraulic back stay adjuster. You could spent the entire day adjusting sails in to about any shape you'd want. Best sailed with a helmsman and a couple of crew. Of course I loved it and my wife never wants to see it again.

Good luck!


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

Mattbastard said:


> THANK you! See this is what I'm talking about, something like keel bolts...


Keep in mind that every design decision is a compromise and has its benefits and drawbacks. Now consider that a sailboat is an amalgamated set of hundreds of design decisions. If you eliminate all boats that have one small detail that was mentioned in passing on an internet forum, you may eliminate many boats that are the best set of compromises for your desires. That may not be wise, especially if you don't know the benefits of the feature you are eliminating from consideration, or the drawbacks of its alternatives.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Mattbastard said:


> THANK you! See this is what I'm talking about, something like keel bolts. One of the first "afflictions" I've heard about Catalina's is the "smile". Looking online at the fix/repair seems VERY invasive. I've taken on some pretty monumental projects in my life but supporting a 2000lb lead keel is nowhere near my scope of ability. I do really like the Catalina 27/30, but if there's an option where the keel bolt issue is not possible then I'll steer my interests that way.
> 
> How do the Cal and Ericson keels work in those cases? I'm assuming there's some heavy metal in the hull somewhere to add ballast.


BigDod72 got it - it's called "encapsulated ballast" - the keel is molded as part of the hull, and the lead ballast is dropped in and glassed over. You are right, you will never get the "smile" and they are generally robust. As is mentioned above, however, it does not necessarily mean a good keel. Some encapsulated ballast are from concrete and iron, which can expand and burst if water gets in them. However, Cal and Ericson have lead ballast, and are known to have good keels, and general good build. Another good feature about the Cal and Ericson is that they have a glassed-in hull/deck joint, which is a big cause of leaks on many boats that are bolted together. And Jwing's advice is gold, there are many other things to worry about in design than keel. However, again I recommend the Cal 29 or Ericson 29. They are a well known quantity in SoCal as good sailors and generally well built, are easy to find, and have no particularly bad habits. The smaller Cal 2-27 and Ericson 27 are both great boats too, but you may outgrow them quickly if you are looking to cruise Baja or even spend much time at Catalina Island. Anything smaller is more a daysailor.


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## chriskiss (Sep 20, 2001)

Lazerbrains is correct on Cal and Ericson. I owned a Catalina 27. Great/beautiful/efficient boat. Fell into a deal on a Cal 31. Seems like twice the room and great headroom. Relatively unknown since they didn't build many. I would recommend it.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

TQA said:


> OK I will give it a go.
> 
> Anything with substantial parts of the boat made of wood, this includes glass sheathed plywood.
> 
> ...


rubbish


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

chriskiss said:


> Lazerbrains is correct on Cal and Ericson. I owned a Catalina 27. Great/beautiful/efficient boat. Fell into a deal on a Cal 31. Seems like twice the room and great headroom. Relatively unknown since they didn't build many. I would recommend it.


A good buddy of mine has a Cal 31 - don't see too many of them. He is a former racer, and can really make his go!


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## Mark F. Sanderson (Aug 12, 2016)

SHNOOL said:


> Thank you Donna!
> 
> I cringed reading that. Every time someone limits themselves to non-trailerables I always think NorSea 27. Pretty much defines blue water trailerables.
> ...


Cool looking boat - reminds me of the Valiants? I'd love to see one of these up close . . .

Mark


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

TQA said:


> .....
> Any foam cored hull.
> 
> Anything with a weird engine or an old Volvo. You may need to do some research on this as some weird engines are just rebadged Perkins or Kubotas and spares are available for those.


Is a 'new' Volvo OK? If so, where is the break between new and old? Or all Volvos bad?
What 'weird engines' were rebadged as Perk or Kub?

If foam is 'bad', is balsa OK?

Let us know, please.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Boats to avoid? The ugly ones. You will know when you see them.
Boats to buy? Older boats their owners loved and maintained well. You will never lose with a boat like that. Any boat made in the 70's or 80's that looks like she was well taken care of, is a good choice.
A good boat is worth spending money on and pampering.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Given what you want to do with this boat, which is realistic and sensible for a first time owner IMHO, there are practically no boats brands I would avoid. Here's what i would NOT do:

1. Buy a fixer upper. You will severely underestimate the cost and time of repairs. You need to go sailing.

2. Buy a boat that's been sitting on hard for a long time. It may not look like it is, but it is a fixer upper too. Sometimes hours are worse than time.

3. Buy an offshore brick - sh** house of a boat. You're going to go coastal cruising. Performance and livability more important than it's ability to round cape horn while your crew is sleeping in the sea berths with lee cloths.

4. Buy an expensive boat. This will not be your last boat, don't think about it that way. Hit the dock with this one a couple of times, go aground, scratch it, put it away wet...just keep the systems running well.

What to do:

Buy a boat that is currently heavily used and cared for by a meticulous and knowledgeable owner. One that has been kept in sea worthy condition with all systems functional. I'm not talking cosmetics, talking about engines, running rigging, standing rigging, plumbing, seacocks, sails, rudder, hull, deck, engine....etc. Get to know the previous owner. Make sure you like him/her. Have fun with the purchase. Pay a fair price. Have it surveyed before closing, even though many will say at lower prices not worth it, IMHO it's even more worth it to avoid buying something that will cost you more than the purchase price to fix.

Good luck....don't wait. Time is ticking away!


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

Having bought only one boat after a lot of looking and learning, I will only add one thing. You say it's you and your wife and that a galley and head are requirements. I will suggest that you might (or might not) find that features like cockpit size, ease-of-use, berths, storage etc. might end up being more important than not. You like bikes — think of it this way: would you take your wife on a 2-day ride on a chopper with a tiny foam pad perched atop a fender for a passenger seat? And if you did, would she ever go again? Or on the other hand, if your first trip was on an old 80's era Goldwing with armrests, might not both of you be tempted to make more and longer trips?

When we bought, knowing we would eventually buy another boat someday, we bought a comfortable and easy to sail boat so we could learn without too many other distractions. A good nights sleep goes a long way to making the next day easier to cope with 

All that said, I would take all these suggestions (and any others that come up) and immerse yourself in Yachtworld for some months. Two years after buying I am still doing that and still learning.

Oh, and having recently sailing in a MacGregor, I would suggest, for your purposes, that that is one to definitely stay away from. ;-)


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## chriskiss (Sep 20, 2001)

RegisteredUser said:


> Is a 'new' Volvo OK? If so, where is the break between new and old? Or all Volvos bad?
> What 'weird engines' were rebadged as Perk or Kub?
> 
> If foam is 'bad', is balsa OK?
> ...


There a number of boat "candidates" in the 30 foot range from the 70's that came with the saltwater cooled Volvo MD-7. There is one in my Cal 31. I never liked the thought of it, but the boat was such a good deal, I took it anyway. I went though a difficult cooling problem cycle, but now that it is taken care of, I believe it is a good engine. Simple and heavy duty. However, I would never buy a new one or invest in an expensive boat that has one.

I have a Yanmar 3GM30 that I will install when the Volvo dies.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Mattbastard said:


> Besides, I've always been under the impression that trailerable sailboats are made for lakes, not oceans. I'll be on the ocean exclusively.


I think this might depend a little bit on what you mean by ocean. What you are describing sounds a little bit like coastal or even near coastal ocean to me.

For example Catalina island is only 22 miles off shore. Figure 5 hours, leave at 7 arrive by lunch time. Or 2 hours with decent wind on a beach cat...

I would think a trailer sailer like a Catalina 22 or Catalina 25 would be just fine for a trip to Catalina Island.

I was recently talking to a guy who had taken his Sea Pearl 21 to the Bahamas from Florida. No engine, just oars for auxillary power, that's about 4 times the distance.

However, if you're talking about significant ocean passages, say to Hawaii, then fewer and fewer trailer sailers would be appropriate in my opinion.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

As much as possible, I would try to avoid falling in love with one particular boat. When the time comes, you will have a hard time finding one (unless it is the Catalina 27). Try to keep the number of things that are deal-breakers to a minimum. Ideally, there will be a blob of like, and dis-like features that will blend together in final choice. At some point, when you start narrowing the criteria, start a spreadsheet. It will still take a lot of research.


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## NaptownLarry (May 24, 2017)

Avoid any "sailboat" that has an outboard motor bolted to the back. Get something big enough to house a reliable diesel like a small Yanmar. My 80's C&C 30 was a single hander's dream out of the Chesapeake Bay and fast for that era. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

RegisteredUser said:


> Is a 'new' Volvo OK? If so, where is the break between new and old? Or all Volvos bad?
> What 'weird engines' were rebadged as Perk or Kub?
> _Westerbeke and Universal engines may be Perkins. Lots of Beta engines use Kubota base engines. The Volvo MD22L started life as an Austin Montego diesel, was marinised by Perkins and painted blue (sold by them as a Perkins Prima 50hp) or sold to Volvo who painted it green and fitted it with their gearbox instead of a Hurth. But there are engines that are based on VW diesels Mercades diesels etc.
> _
> ...


There is lots of stuff on the WWW about what to avoid. Do your own due diligence.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

TQA said:


> There is lots of stuff on the WWW about what to avoid. Do your own due diligence.


I sort of agree. Probably, the OP thinks he _is_ doing his due diligence by asking questions here. I think, however, more than just asking people if something is good or bad, he should be delving into "why" good or bad and then making his choice based on his own tolerances rather than a majority vote. That will take research beyond this forum.

For example, I get told to stay away from Volvo engines. A sailing friend started out with a Volvo but has had to machine so many new parts that it is barely identifiable as a Volvo anymore. My own marina is a dealer and advised against them when we repowered. Why? We were told that parts seem to be more expensive and harder to find in the U.S. On the other hand some of the boats we're looking at have Volvo engines. From one boat to the other (same manufacturer) within the same-ish years they were made, the few with Volvos are _considerably_ less expensive.

When asked his preference John said he was up to the challenge of keeping a Volvo running but he has a diesel background. Also, we don't intend to sail exclusively in the U.S. A boat with a Volvo is still not in my preferred column of the Next Boat checklist. It's barely making the Maybe column ahead of a sail drive.

So yes, due diligence beyond the forums will probably make anyone happier in the long run.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

Mattbastard: Depending on what you mean by "full head and galley," many, if not most, boats < 36' be eliminated from your consideration. Surfing Yachtworld doesn't give a good feel for how small the accommodations really are. I recommend that you figure out ways to get aboard boats in your targeted size range. Boats for sale are obvious. Or go down to the marinas and ask owners about their boats. It helps if you have some business at the marina other than lurking. Maybe you can find one that has a club that rents sailboats to members. Or just buy a small boat and sail it out of a good marina. Meet people and go sailing on their boats.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

jwing said:


> Mattbastard: Depending on what you mean by "full head and galley," many, if not most, boats < 36' be eliminated from your consideration. Surfing Yachtworld doesn't give a good feel for how small the accommodations really are. I recommend that you figure out ways to get aboard boats in your targeted size range.


Good advice. I chartered a Catalina 28 which which had like 5' 9.5" headroom in the head. I'm 5' 9" so it worked for me, but if you were 5' 10" you'd be hitting your head every time you used the head.


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## Guyfromthenorth (Jul 2, 2015)

NaptownLarry said:


> Avoid any "sailboat" that has an outboard motor bolted to the back. Get something big enough to house a reliable diesel like a small Yanmar. My 80's C&C 30 was a single hander's dream out of the Chesapeake Bay and fast for that era.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


As an owner of a boat with an "outboard motor bolted to the back" I can speak to this.

This wouldn't be a deal breaker for a sub 30ft boat purchase in my eyes. I've owned one for 3 years now and know the pros and cons, to each their own.

CONS
-In steep sharp waves you can run into issues where the motor can drown (engine submerged) if you aren't attentive to the transom mount setting locked in. It's easily adjusted, but eventually you can get to a wave size that will be steep enough that the motor drowns OR when set to a height not to drown the prop will breach the surface. Usually when these conditions come up it's better to sail than motor anyways as the boat is more stable. But it's still a con.
-Depending on where the motor is mounted (boat transom design varies) it may not be the most efficient "push" due to the prop being off center compared to an inboard.
-Small engine on a transom, in the elements may age it faster. I've got a Honda BF100 and had little issue with it, especially considering it's from the 80's, but it's not as "protected" as an inboard.
-Fuel tank is usually stowed in the cockpit somewhere and has a fuel line that comes over the transom to the motor which may get snagged on stuff.

PROS
-EXCELLENT directional thruster for coming back into the slip. This took so much pressure off me over the years docking my boat, I have a ton of control being about to "point" the prop.
-Alot cheaper to replace if you 'kaboom' it. Dime a dozen used, even new are alot cheaper than a new Yanmar.
-Easy to work on, it's all on the transom, can be pulled off in 2mins and brought to the garage for you (or a pro) to diagnose and fix.
-Cheap on fuel.

I love the outboard on my 7.5m boat, that being said I know my next boat will be over 30ft and have an inboard. The single biggest drawback I find with my outboard is the #1 con I listed above. I've been caught in STEEP sharp great lakes waves more than once that threatened to drown the motor or breach the prop (or both sometimes). Every boat is different, but for my setup this threshold is hit with Lake Huron waves (different than ocean swells) that are starting to break and stacked about 6ft from ditch to tip high.

I agree with others to the OP's inquiry. Other than "fixer uppers" there really isn't a "bad" boat out there for the size and money you want to spend. Make sure nothing looks scary, the seller seems honest, get a survey if you want or at least look up videos on how to do your own survey to be informed. I would also add if this is your first boat, you want to sail coastal, and there is a chance for big(ish) waves I would say get something with a headsail furling system. A friend of mine owns a CS22 with a hank on headsail and in anything other than flat seas he and his wife find it "death defying" heading up to the bow to fly or douse the sail. I furl mine in the cockpit without breaking a sweat and can say from experience now that I've been in waves and wind before that would have altered my perspective on life had I been on the bow dropping the genoa. Small boats especially will be "tippy", maybe tender is more the word, in bigger seas and anything you can do as a new sailor to remain in the cockpit will reduce the scare factor.

EDIT: I know some of the Columbia models had deck mounted chain plates for the inner shrouds. This maybe wouldn't be a deal killer for me, but I'd sure want to investigate and know the decks don't have delam or rot in them before sailing off in one.


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## Mattbastard (Jun 18, 2017)

jwing said:


> Mattbastard: Depending on what you mean by "full head and galley," many, if not most, boats < 36' be eliminated from your consideration. Surfing Yachtworld doesn't give a good feel for how small the accommodations really are. I recommend that you figure out ways to get aboard boats in your targeted size range. Boats for sale are obvious. Or go down to the marinas and ask owners about their boats. It helps if you have some business at the marina other than lurking. Maybe you can find one that has a club that rents sailboats to members. Or just buy a small boat and sail it out of a good marina. Meet people and go sailing on their boats.


Basically if there's a sink and a single burner cook-top (stove not mandatory but nice), and an enclosed toilet with sink I'm happy. I suppose I may have overused the term "full" describing the galley, but some of the small boats that come with a sink only won't cut it. Nor will a porta potty under the v-birth. Something to whip-up a warm dinner, and a separate enclosure to crap in, is all I need. Also, I've learned that anywhere we're planning on going in the SoCal area will have some type of shower facility on land so the shower requirement within the boat isn't so important anymore.


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## Van_Isle (Jan 10, 2014)

Outboards will also be challenged in keeping batteries charged properly.


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## Van_Isle (Jan 10, 2014)

I should also mention that Good Old Boat magazine is a great resource for researching used boats ... great reviews.


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## SteelShooter (Aug 30, 2017)

Thought I'd throw my 2 cents in on this. You haven't received any bad advise from anyone here. I might suggest you take a look at the Catalina 30's. Given some of the comforts that you have mentioned like a full head and galley I think you will find the layout of the 30 is hard to beat. There is a reason they were the most popular 30 ever built, which also means there a lot of them out there to pick from. They are the Chevy of the sailboat world so you're not going to win the Americas cup and it's not likely something that your going sail to Hawaii but they very comfortable and sail pretty well. I started with one and loved that boat. The one thing about the Catalina is there isn't a better support network anywhere and you can still easily find any part on the boat available. Take your time and look at everything you can and if you do you wont have to worry about which boat you pick, she will pick you.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Buy your last boat first.
It will save you tens of thousands of dollars.


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## tsell (Dec 9, 2012)

I would avoid this one:


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

tsell said:


> I would avoid this one:
> 
> View attachment 99377


The one on the left?


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## twoshoes (Aug 19, 2010)

tsell said:


> I would avoid this one:
> 
> View attachment 99377


That'll buff out....


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## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

I'm a total rookie here, and my wife and I own a 1972 Pearson 26'. Our head is a Thetford marine discharge (meaning it has pumpout and vent fittings) portapotti and our galley, at least for now, is an onboard hand-pumped freshwater system and a Coleman gas stove. We've spent many enjoyable weekends aboard, and I recently completed a four-day cruise with a friend of mine. The head area, which from the factory was originally enlcosed by a wood door, is wide open on our boat as the previous owner (owners?) decided to remove the door. It's amazing how unimportant "privacy" becomes when one really has to "go." Without gettting too personal, we've been married for over 35 years, and still don't share the bathroom at home when... ahem.. nature calls. On board... who cares. I'd put a LOT less emphasis on an "enclosed head" and a lot more on structural integrity, sail-ability, and general space/layout than the head. 

Everyone poops. I'd stop worrying about that so much. Everyone we meet talks to us about what our next boat should or will be. To be honest, we love our Pearson 26, would be very happy spending a few weeks on it, and feel confident that it would take good care of us in some very strong weather. Right now, we're not looking for anything bigger.. just looking for ways to make her even more comfortable, and the possibilities are endless.

Just my opinion. Enjoy the adventure!

Barry


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

bblument said:


> The head area, which from the factory was originally enlcosed by a wood door, is wide open on our boat as the previous owner (owners?) decided to remove the door. It's amazing how unimportant "privacy" becomes when one really has to "go." I'd put a LOT less emphasis on an "enclosed head" and a lot more on structural integrity, sail-ability, and general space/layout than the head
> Barry


To each his own, for sure. And I agree with your statement about what's really important on a boat. But in my family, the head issue was key when we bought the boat.

My first "big" boat was a Catalina 22. The head is in the v-berth cut-out, basically in the open in the cabin. Some owners put a curtain up for privacy, but we couldn't because we were "time-sharing" the boat. So in order to have privacy while using the head, you had to close up the companionway. My wife hated that. And we later found out that at least two guests who had been aboard for day sails (one male, one female) had opted just to "hold it in" for the whole day rather go through the hassle. That made me think there were others who felt the same way but didn't cop to it.

Fast forward about five years when we bought our first (and still only) boat outright: an Oday 23. While I really liked the keel/centerboard set up and the look and feel of the boat, what sold it to my wife was that the head was behind a real door. It's really important to some people. As I have advised many people over the years, never underestimate the value of this feature to the ladies.

It's a great thing that you and your wife have adjusted/don't care about the lack of a head door on your Pearson 26 (one of my favorite boats too, btw). I think you're probably in the minority of American couples in this regard, but again, what works for you, works for you! Count yourself among the lucky few couples that seem to have similar tastes and goals for cruising.


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## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

All valid points, and we're in complete agreement. I guess, in my own typically unclear fashion, I was just trying to say that some issues may seem very important at first, but not near as important once you really start to use the boat. We don't have guests aboard frequently and if we did for more than a few hours at a time, our lack of easily-obtained privacy in the head would be a much bigger issue for most, I would guess. Sure, everyone else could hang out in the cockpit or on deck and the drawboards could be put in place to give someone privacy while using the head, but we just haven't bothered. We're not particularly adept or experienced sailors yet, and having quick access to extra line and tools for whatever reasons seemed more important than putting the drawboards up for privacy when under sail. That's all.

When we bought the boat, we WERE bugged (especially my wife) that the door was missing, and that was one of the first things I planned on fabricating after rebuilding the mast support posts, crossbeam, and bulkhead. However, we got used to the larger, more spacious look of the cabin w/out that door, the much easier access to the hanging locker, blah blah blah, and the appeal/necessity of a door just sort of faded away into the distance. Priorities changed for us; an enclosed head started out as extremely important, but eventually became a non-thing. If I could enclose the head without losing the easy access to the hanging locker and the more open feel below, I would, even if it only meant that guests would be more comfortable. In my admittedly limited experience, folks who don't boat much and are aboard for a few-hour day trip typically would rather "hold it" than use ANY form of marine sanitation typically found on smallish sailboats anyway, even if the head was enclosed. 

My advice would still be to find a solid boat that appeals to you. You can always adapt the interior as you wish and find some way to secure privacy when necessary. Heck, at the end of this season, I'm going to redo the entire galley area, install a built-in two-burner cooktop, and make better use of the space we do have. Good boat first.. then adapt as you wish.

Didn't meant to depict ourselves as communally-pooping Neanderthals.


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