# Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.



## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Hello there,
I have recently made a decision to leave the cities and the continent behind and start living onboard and single hand circumnavigate the globe in a never-ending voyage. I have some sailing and open sea experience, because I am former navy officer, but not good for my personal standards and especially not enough for such project. So it is my intention to set sail in about 4 years, which will give me time to do whatever necessary, including building my own sailboat. I have been Reading various forums about several different topics, ranging from boat size to project designers, and the pros and cons of buying (a commercial or a used one) or building.
Well, opinions vary as everything in life! Therefore, since I have time, I decided to build my own. It will also allow me to get well-familiarized will the details and places of everything that will form my home to be for the coming years.
Now I need to select the project. Again, there are so many variations and I weighting them all to form my own opinion. As of now, I decided for a mono steel hull, ranging from 28-45 foots, with movable keel, center cockpit and preferable a pilothouse. Lifting keels seems to be a nice to have in some occasions to preserve the boat, but I am not sure yet what could be the cons. To be decided…..
So far, I came across two lists of designers/naval architects and checked the pages of a few. Not all of them sell plans and a significant smaller number sell pre-cut kits. As of now, I have selected 3 names: Bruce Roberts, Van de Stadt and Roberto Barros. For each of them I found good and not so good reviews.
I don’t want to mess things around here, and I know that I am running the risk of start a very long thread on something that has been debated for years, but could you please help me selecting a good project designer/naval architect and a project model?
Best,
Guilherme


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have you entertained aluminum? The boreal 46 has gotten great write ups and was designed to do exactly what you want to do. H.S. Friend of my wife just got one and is pleased. If you're loaded look at K + M. as well. Dystra,N.A. would be a good designer.
If you're committed to steel speak with Van Meer.
My 2cents


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Well, I am not loaded, but is hard to put a price tag to your dream and selected way of life....LOL

Aluminum seems to be tricky to find labour and parts in some remote places of the world, it is not as durable as steel.

I never heard of those designers you mentioned, could you provide more info about them, their websites and etc?

Yes, I am commited to steel.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

There is Brent Swain of BC Canada who contributes to this forum.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Not much sense in talking about a boat between 28 to 45ft. That is a huge difference. If you have the money for the bigger boat go to a boat between 43 and 45ft, so money is the determinant factor. One a good boat with a good finish, an one off designed expressly by a Na, the difference in price between an Aluminium boat and steel one should not be more than 10% and I am quite sure that almost any NA will recommend aluminium to you.

A good quality custom boat of that size should cost between USD 500 000 and USD 800 000.

If this is inside your budget we can talk about it, if not you can try one of the voyage boats that exist on the market, like the Boreal that Outbound mentioned or the Allures or the OVNI. That should bring the price to a bit less that the lower number but not much, if we are talking about a boat ready to voyage.

If we are talking about a lot less, like 1/3 of that then probably an option would be going to an heavy steel 36ft, the kind Brent Swain design and build. not very pretty or fast but able to do the job.

So, as you sea, budget for a boat is a fundamental piece of information.


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Thanks. My comments:
1.	Size: It is my intention to have the bigger boat possible that I can single hand it. After all, it will be my home and some comfort is never too much. I have indicated from 28 to 45 ft, because I am sure yet of what would be the proper size. Opinions differ, some say that a boat bigger than 40 might be trick to maneuver under bad weather, others that with proper equipment and a good project a 60+ boat can be single handed under the same situation.

2.	Steel versus Aluminum: I believe there are pros and cons for each one. So far, steel seem to be better in terms of durability (with epoxy and other treatments it can last forever), maintenance (it is possible to find steel worker in every corner of the world, and if not, fixing is not a big deal) and security. In addition, nowadays it is possible to find steel alloys that are more resistant and lighter than traditional steel, so a thinner steel could be used to reduce the overall weight.

3.	Price: Around USD 500k sounds to be a nice round number, however I will work hard to accomplish my goal with less. However, I need to point out that import taxes in Brazil can easily double it, and importing a second hand boat is not possible to my country.

Best,


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

With that high of an import duty, don't import it to Brazil. Just create an overseas holding company as the owner. 

Frankly I think you are going about this all wrong. You need to sit down and figure out what you want to do, where you want to go, and how many people you want with you, then look to see if there are used boats that meet your needs. A good used boat can be had for a fraction of the price of a new built.

Once you have a few years sailing, then go to a NA and have a custom boat designed if you choose. But frankly at this point I don't think you have a clear enough idea of what you need to really begin this process. 

As for steel vs aluminium. It has been beat to death on this forum and others. But there is a reason that there are vanishingly few production steel sailboats being built.


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Sometimes this is the way to go, but creating an offshore company is not a solution. It might even increase the problem and make it more expensive if the tax authorities decide that you are doing this to avoid taxes. Thanks for you remarks. I will consider them with good care. Best,


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

If you are not going to sail in Brazil what is the problem? I meet two years ago on the med a Brazilian family sailing and living on a Amel. They were living in France for the winter. I think you can also have double nationality (Portuguese/Brazilian) and can have fixed residence in Portugal (in the boat). Flying a Portuguese banner you can buy a new boat in Portugal with a tax of 23% or can buy a used boat on all EC without any tax (if the boat has already the tax payed, that is what is more normal).

As you are going to be travelling that should not be a problem, except maybe bringing the boat to Brazil on a permanent bases. But a production aluminium sailboat keep a high resale value and you can always sell it when you decide to return definitively to Brazil.


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Unfortunately I don't have a double citzenship nor I can apply to one. Otherwise it could be a good idea to reduce taxes.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

4 years to build a boat to sail the hi seas... with all due respect... Not going to happen. UNLESS you pay a yard to build it. OR have really really close friends that are jacks of all trades.

You will want to consider Home - Origamiboats: The Art of Frameless Steel Boatbuilding 









Also, consider strongly the wisdom in buying a proven blue water boat to refit/restore/refurb. It just makes a whole lot of sense. Steel boats can be picked up for a pocket of change and a bucket of rust olem  Hell, they may even pay you take them!

Just to build a boat, to build a boat usually that.winds up unfinished.. Is all time that you could be using to learn how to sail. there are thousands of boats out there "project, just needs.... and will be ready with....."


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Hi, this is exactly what I want to do: select the designer/project and hire professionals to build it for me, but I will be involved in the process. I know how to sail, and the time not used building the boat will be used to increase my sailing skills (the ones that really matter!), as you pointed out. Best.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

You have a good project by a Brazilian NA, Barros, the Kiribati. The boat is not properly beautiful but it seems effective to me. I had a look at the boat file and the stability curve and everything looks well, even if I would prefer a faster boat, what probably is not your case since you are thinking in steel.

a.b.b. - amateur boat building - Kiribati 36






Kiribati is for sure inside your budget. I would prefer this one, a 43ft by Dick Zaal. I don't think it will be inside the 500 000 usd (at least made in Holland), but you can make an inquire:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1254850-post5621.html

Boths boats are in aluminium but any of those designers can provide you with a similar design in steel, even if I think it is a mistake.


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

I know Roberto Barros (Cabinho)'s projects. He is a great NA very well known in Brazil, perhaps the most successful around here. He would be my in my shortlist, but first I need to have a list with other NA’s….LOL. Around 10 years ago I sailed one of his projects, Delta 26. A great sailboat, easy to handle. 
Thanks for pointing me to Dick Zaal. His projects look really great! 
In respect to budge, what should I expect? Perhaps an interesting reduction would come from having the parts cut in a country such as Germany and have the boat mounted in Brazil. If this could be possible, my concern would be the quality of welds and how to create a good quality control. Badly made welds ca increase the weight and make the hull more fragile.
It seems to me that you are not a fan of steel hulls. Will I trouble you if I ask you why?
Best,


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

grafare said:


> .....
> It seems to me that you are not a fan of steel hulls. Will I trouble you if I ask you why?
> Best,


Grafare, Welcome to Sailnet!

The 'steel or not' debate is a well documented one with obvious and passionate views on either side.

I'm sure Paulo will come back, but he may be asleep by now... In my view a steel boat is really only specified if one intends to do polar sailing or extreme venues like that (or you plan to play 'demolition boat' with every coral reef you come across!)

Modern techniques and generally far better designs can be rendered in typically fiberglass, or possibly even better, cold molded wood/epoxy. Go back through Paulo (PCP's) "Interesting Sailboats" thread for some ideas on what's happening mostly in Europe of late.

The 'economy' of steel is often overrated as what ever hull material you choose will end up being a low 10-15% of the overall finished cost of the boat fully finished and equipped. In that respect the 'cost' of the build (of the hull) is not a major consideration overall.

There's no denying the inherent strength of steel, but if it really was the best choice one must ask why, as Stumble pointed out, there are SOOO few steel boat builders left. A well engineered hull of any other material can be nearly or perhaps equally strong, (and certainly more than 'strong enough' for typical cruising and safe boat handling) and ultimately will be lighter, faster, and probably better shaped.

Had I the ability to specify a new custom build, my first choice would be a cold molded hull, with perhaps a molded f/g deck, though the tooling costs there might be excessive... and, most probably, from the drawing board of Bob Perry...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Dick Zall is known (among other things) by his aluminium and steel boats. He is Dutch and Holland has a great tradition of building aluminium and steel boats. I am sure he could have all pieces cut for you.

There are basically two types of projects from a NA, a one off, where you say what you want to an NA and he just does a project to you (expensive) and a project already made that the NA sells to several clients. That is the case with the one I posted. I had once changed some emails with Zall. He speaks English and is a nice guy. If you are interested send him an email and ask about prices.

You have also on this Forum Bob Perry (NA) that is a nice guy and has also experience in designing Aluminium and steel boats. You can also talk with him. you can find him on the thread about steel boats.

Another option are the stock plans from Van De Stadt:

http://www.stadtdesign.com/designs/stock_plans_sail/tonga_56/1


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Faster: I agree with you on your comment about the pseudo economy of a steel hull. My main concerns are related to safety, maintenance and repair. I am not sure about the other material, but with almost 100% certainty one can find a worker/welder who knows how to handle steel in any part of the world.
So far, I found no data about the speed reduction due to weight increasing on steel boats when compared to aluminum and other materials, considering the same project. Do you have any information regarding this? 
Best,


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Paulo: Thanks again.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

grafare said:


> Faster: I agree with you on your comment about the pseudo economy of a steel hull. My main concerns are related to safety, maintenance and repair. I am not sure about the other material, but with almost 100% certainty one can find a worker/welder who knows how to handle steel in any part of the world.
> So far, I found no data about the speed reduction due to weight increasing on steel boats when compared to aluminum and other materials, considering the same project. Do you have any information regarding this?
> Best,


In all sailboats weight matters. The smaller the boat the biggest difference between s steel hull and an aluminium hull. On bigger sailboats (over 60ft) the difference exist but will be smaller. I believe that you will find also everywhere people able to repair an aluminium hull if needed.

One thing you should be concerned about steel is resale value that is very low.

Berckemeyer (NA) that has also some very interesting aluminium boats in his portfolio says it better than me:

*ALUMINIUM YACHTS:

Aluminium nowadays is the most popular building material with custom built long distance cruisers. You can leave it unpainted. Claims about electrolysis problems with Aluminium hulls are mostly exagerated, however, this aspect should be observed and proper protection installed.

The following comparison will show the pros and cons of Aluminium versus

steel:

Weight: Aluminium is lighter than steel for the same strength. Hence the available displacement can be utilized for carrying water, equipment and provisions, rather than a heavy steel structure.

More stable and faster: Due to their lighter weight, Aluminium boats have a lower centre of gravity and are therefore more stable and faster.

Appearance: In order to keep the weight of steel hulls down, plating is thinner than with Aluminium yachts. Therefore, over the years, steel hulls will often acquire a buckled appearance, with reduced resale value.

Labour saving: Light weight means labour saving during the construction of the hull. Also, Aluminium can be cut abt. 3x as fast as steel and it can be cut with normal woodworking equipment. Aluminium welds approc. 2x as fast as steel, even considering the thicker plating to be welded in the case of Aluminium construction.

Safety: Aluminium deforms or stretches beyond its elastic limit more than steel before rupturing. This is of particular importance when hitting floating objects ( it is estimated that approximately 10 00 containers are going overboard annually ).

Safety: Aluminium is non-sparking and non-magnetic.
Price of material: Aluminium is more expensive than steel, however, it does not require a very elaborate paint system for corrosion protection and the resale value of Aluminium yachts is the highest of all boatbuilding materials.

COMBINATION ALUMINIUM / WOOD:

Aluminium hulls with wooden decks (inside: natural wooden deckbeams supporting a white painted plywood deck) combine the warmth of wood with the safety of Aluminium hulls. Furthermore, a lot of time is saved with this building method, since labouriously covering up deckbeams and stringers at the inside of an Aluminium deck can take the same time as building the deck in plywood accoring to the WEST (Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique) system.

STEEL YACHTS: 
Steel is the traditional material for metal boatbuilding. However, in spite of all claims that steel can be 100% corrosion protected, it still needs care and when you see a rusty spot on an exposed surface, you will have uneasy feelings about the hidden parts which will rust away undetected. Moreover, steel adds approx. 20% to the displacement as compared to Aluminium hulls, which could be better utilized by way of supplies. The resale value of steel boats is low

O. Berckemeye*

Berckemeyer Yacht Design

Regards

Paulo


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Paulo,
I read the thread “Steel or not” as mentioned by Faster. Putting the BS aside, it provides interesting information about the pros and cons of steel boats. I must confess that somehow I don´t few very comfortable with aluminum due to damage, electrolysis, repair and maintenance. Perhaps I need to study more about it in order to change my mind. On the other hand, according to a friend of mine, there some new special steel alloys that are lighter and more resistant than ordinary steel used in maritime applications that could reduce some of the cons listed on your last post.
It seems that a 60 ft boat is too big to be single handled, so the difference will be significant on the size I am considering. By the way, the arguments listed on your last post make total sense to me. 
Best,


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

You asked abut the speed reduction by going to steel vs aluminium. Frankly that is very difficult to answer, and would be different from boat to boat but let's look at some quick numbers. 

A typical 40' fiberglass sailboat is going to have a Diesel engine in the 40hp range and a weight of around 15,000lbs. So we have roughly 375lbs/hr. If you assume a steel hull will be 20% heavier for the same size! that means a weight of 18,000, at the same 40hp, that's 450lbs/hp.

Figure this relatively modest increase of 3,000lbs results in a 20% reduction in available power. Since a steel hull also has a higher center of gravity because of the additional weight up high, you have to reduce the amount of sail that the boat can carry, resulting in a decrease in the available power under sail. So steel gets you coming and going, it makes the boat heavier reducing performance, and it reduces available sail area, further reducing performance. 


And frankly the idea that you can't find someone who can weld aluminium... I spend a lot of time in 3rd world countries, and I have never been anywhere where I could haul a boat out of the water that I couldn't also find someone to weld aluminium. The likelihood of trying to re weld a steel hull while it's laid over on a beach is just a myth.


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Thanks for the explanation. I believe I understood it. 

In respect to welding, let´s put this way, in some parts of the 3rd world it is much harder to find a metal worker who knows how to work on aluminium for many reasons, including the cost of necessary equipment.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

grafare said:


> Faster: I agree with you on your comment about the pseudo economy of a steel hull. My main concerns are related to safety, maintenance and repair. *I am not sure about the other material, but with almost 100% certainty one can find a worker/welder who knows how to handle steel in any part of the world.*


Same with fiberglass.

If you go steel, just make sure you go with a designer with integrity. It's always good to be able to trust what you're being told.

I would point you to Bob Perry in heartbeat...regardless of hull material. There are many of his satisfied customers here and on SA that will enthusiastically vouch for him. The dude's good.


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Smackdaddy: I have been reading threads in various forums, and, so far, received many information and very good advice from various persons. One of the very few qualities I have is I listen to people, especially when they know more and have more experience than I do, and follow their advices!
Bob Perry´s accomplishments speak for himself. My main concern is, hire a NA (especially thousands of miles away) seem to be very expensive if one needs to design a new project from zero and build it (forgive me, but I don’t know the actual cost, but my wife is an architect)
It seems to me that a way to reduce the total investment is buying an existing stock project and hire a NA (and I would hire a NA that is not the same who designed the project) to become your consultant or permanent team member of your project. 
However, in the ultimate scheme of things, the money invested to hire a good NA is a small percentage of the overall project cost and can make the difference between success and total failure. So, instead of a cost, I see it as an investment!
One of the tasks I have for the coming days is to find out and breakdown in percentages, like an ABC analysis, to start getting a better sense of the investment in each phase of the project. For instance: project, NA, hull, electronics, rig, interior and so on. After, I will breakdown into material, equipment, labour and etc. Then, once I have understood them, I will adapt it to the selected project. 
Best,


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Still in what regards building a boat in steel or aluminium I believe the only disadvantage would be the less technological build in steel. Not that in aluminium is a lot more dificult but it is more specialized and as you pointed out, even if today electrolysis problems with aluminium are completely sorted out in professional boa building, that can be a problem with a more amateurish construction if they don't know what they are doing.

Since you have to build the boat in Brazil I would stop by now and I would go looking for aluminium professional boat building in Brazil (I am sure that there is shipyards), see if there is any at a convenient distance from where you live and depending on their quality and skill I would then go on regarding the material and type of project:There are several levels of difficulty in what regards stock projects: some are very easy, designed to be built by amateurs, others are better boats but only suited to be built by professionals.

I think that regarding your budget the idea of having a stock plan and then a NA or a Naval engineer to direct the building team makes a lot of sense.

Regarding the NA and the project I would regard as very convenient one that could take care for you of all cutting (computer assisted plasma cutting) of metal parts in a way that you would only have to assemble the boat in Brazil.

For instance this Swedish shipyard designs the boats, cut the parts and send everything to Poland where they assemble the boat. Just give it as example because they have a nice picture i can post but any NA with experience in 3D design with the right tools and used to work in metal can do this:



*"Every single element in the construction of the VK series of aluminum performance sailing yachts is designed down to the last detail. The construction elements are then grouped according to their thickness and type of aluminum alloy. Each group is nested on plate forms that will be used for cutting by CNC laser and/or plasma cutters.

From the above procedure a construction kit is developed that is ready to go to the production. For the assembly of the construction kit, the sequence and the type of welding a special construction manual is made by VK Yacht to be used at the yard.

The metal used in the construction of the VK series aluminum performance sailing yachts are Lloyd's 3.2 approved aluminum alloys:

AL 5083-H32 for the internals (AlMg4.5Mn)
AL 5083-H0 for the plating (AlMg4.5Mn)
AL 6082-T6 for bars (AlMgSi1)

The production yard of the VK series of aluminum performance sailing yachts is in Gdansk, Poland. The yard had a long practicing experience in aluminum marine constructions already before starting collaboration with VK Yacht.

In the yard, prior to the assembly of the construction kit, the elements that need to be curved are formed with specialized roller machines. The final assembly and welding is performed by approved and well experienced technicians.

The total construction is supervised and approved by Classification Authority."*

VK Yacht AB - Construction

Off course even if already cut in this case it is a project to be executed by skilled professionals and that's why I said that first I would look at what you have available as work force and then i would chose the material and the type of process.

Probably the Dutch have the better designers and specialized shipyards in what regards Aluminium Yachts, closed followed by the French, but in what regards simpler projects designed for the amateur boat building (easier to build) and overall less expensive boats, than the France is the place to look.

I can give you some suggestions, but first look at what you have available in what regards boat building.


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Paulo,
Thanks again. 
I can stretch my budget once I am in control of all variables. But, for now, I must have a ballpark figure to direct my search and analysis. One thing I can assure to you: it is going to be my home, but I don´t like to waste money. Everything must have a proper and solid reason and justification.
Since I am living in São Paulo, finding qualified people working with AL won´t be too problematic, but, again, in other places this could represent a challenge. I will check around and beat around the bushes to find good AL workers and plasma cutting firms. How can I enforce a good quality control? 
I still need to come up with a shortlist of designers and projects. Without that, it will be very hard to come up with a budget and strategy to manage this project. So far, I came across: Van de Stadt, Berckemeyr, Olivier van Meer, Marc Lombard, Ted Brewer, Dick Zaal, Tanton, Dudley Dix, Ted Brewer and Roberto Barros (Cabinho).
Best,


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

There are so many NA with standard plans for voyage boats, so many different types of boats that you have first to focus on a type (size) and material and for that you have to establish a budget and see what is the work quality and qualification workers you have available. To have workers specialized in aluminium is not the same as having workers specialized in aluminium yacht building and even in S. Paulo I don't think you would find that much choice. If the qualification is not high the best is a good plan for amateur boat building.

Some French ones (there are much more):

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/5roq7da493yrtqt/Tudulut - pers.pdf

PATAGO 45

GILBERT CAROFF-DUFLOS - ARCHITECTURE NAVALE

architecte naval nantes loire atlantique plan voilier competition croisiere bateau moteur servitude 44


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Paulo,
You are right about finding AL workers in São Paulo, but before I follow another path (i.e. forget about AL or decide to buy either a new or a used boat) it is important to make sure there is no coming back and the decision was conscious and well made. 
I am not concerned with budget *yet*, but I will. So, let me change the focus a little, before discussing about NA and steel versus Al, with one question: what is the bigger size a sailboat can be single handled cruising around the world on open waters in safety and efficiently? 
Thanks for the new referrals.
Best,


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

It depends on the boat and rigging. He his an old man, not a top sailor and is sailing a 63ft sailing boat around the world:

Kiwi Spirit | Dr. Stanley Paris ? Kiwi Spirit, a custom designed 63-foot yacht

STANLEY PARIS: His Geriatric Circumnavigation | Sailfeed

Light modern cruising boats and modern rigging had allowed for much lighter boats, boats that need less sail to go faster than his ancestors. Less sail on a bigger boat means less efforts, better sea motion and more speed.

The problem with bigger boats are draft and more dificult to maneuver in tight places (marinas) but modern lifting Keels, swing keels and centerboarders solved that problem while bow thrusters and rotating saildrives took care of the other.

So I would say that unless you are rich it is more a money problem (all that is expensive) and bigger boats are more expensive too. Answering to your question without money considerations I would chose a modern boat between 45 and 55ft, (a light one to sail well with a small amount of sail) and one with a lifting or swinging keel. That size if the right boat and rig is chose can be handle by a single person and offers increase safety and more space to live aboard as well as more load ability without a too much cost in performance.


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

No, I am not rich (un)fortunately, unless you count my friends as my wealth! So, let´s established the following size limit: 35 to 50. Now, I need to browse around and check what can be accomplished within this limit. I believe it is important to have a wider interval because some NAs might be better in solving spacing problems than others. 
The Kiwi Spirit is a good example of Farr design! Stanley is doing what I want to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Of the designers you mention, Dix , Van de Stadt and Tanton have a lot of steel boat experience, and understand the material very well. Tanton has the most advanced building methods of that group. Bob Perry, one of the best plastic boat designers in the world, has almost none, and very little understanding of the material. He has almost zero experience in building, cruising in or maintaining a steel boat. Being an expert in one material does not automatically make one an expert in all materials. Hands on experience in building, cruising in and maintaining a steel boat makes a huge difference in the amount of unnecessary hassle you have later on. It means understanding what steel will or wont do. An example was a Brewer design, which some friends built in Duncan. Brewer insisted on transverse frames only, no longitudinals , which would make it extremely hard to keep a hull fair. They, experienced builders , after considerable effort, convinced Brewer to go for wider spacing on the frames and logitudinals, which helped a lot, but the boat, a 45 footer, still took several 45 gallon drums of filler to fair. Brewer learned from that mistake, with the help of their advice, and the next boat they built to his design, was a lot fairer. Someone with a lot of steel boat experience would not have had the same learning curve.
Friends with aluminium boats are constantly trying to find effective antifoulings which wont eat their hulls with electrolysis. Aluminium has less corrosion above the waterline ,but is more prone to more severe problems below the waterline, where you cant see it, and it can happen very rapidly. Steel has more corrosion above the waterline, where it is easy to spot and deal with, but almost none below the waterline, as long as you weld your zincs on and keep them up.
Put a piece of bare aluminium out in the sun for an hour in your Brazilian summer sun. Then try to walk on it in bare feet. You will burn the soles of your feet. Now imagine cruising in a bare aluminium boat in the tropics. Blows the myth that an aluminium boat needs no paint. That may be true in higher lattitudes, but not in the tropics. Insulation may help , but it will still be much hotter than a white painted boat .
Rubbing on bare aluminium can turn your clothes black.
A steel weld has 100% strength, aluminium welds far less, and are far easier to screw up. You can build an engine driven welder which will be more than adequate for any steel or stainless welding you have underway , for under $50.
15 days from BC to Hawaii in my 36, is not a whole lot slower than the same boat in aluminium would do.
I just put an aluminium cabin top on a steel Colvin Gazzelle, for a fraction the cost of building the entire boat out of aluminium, replacing the much heavier plywood cabin top it came with.
Bob mentioned a client who spent a fortune on a carbon fibre mast, who later said the improvement was barely noticeable. This is a common experience among those who get suckered into the most expensive ways of doing things on a yacht.
When steel for my 36 was around $6 K the aluminium for one, laying on the ground , untouched was $20K. That is a big dent in ones cruising fund, several years worth of cruising to give up, for minimal gain, if any. Welding aluminium is also far more expensive and requires perfect, flat calm, dry conditions. Steel is far more forgiving.
Too big a boat has killed far more cruising dreams than most other causes .Big boats go from main harbour to main harbour, where they sit for weeks while smaller boats are constantly coming and going, seeing a lot more anchorages and truly seeing the places they visit . Its just that much easier to get underway and go, than it is for a much bigger boat. Stick to under 40 feet.


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Brent, thanks for your comment. Best,


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Check out Alex's video from [email protected]
Lots of good fabricating tips, regardless of what kind of metal boat you build.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Feeling contentious .
Size= speed. Can't argue with LOA. I and my sisterships routinely do 200+ days. That's for a fully loaded cruiser. 
Size= comfort. Both in terms of ease of achieving a favorable comfort motion but as if not more important quality of life. Having the modern accoutrements ( watermaker, splendide,HVAC, TV /stereo, generator, alternative energy system etc.) takes space and it's a joy to have 200g water/200g fuel. Having your own private bunk regardless of who else is on the boat allows sanity. Not worrying about where to put the spares and having a full tool and work shop is a pleasure. Not moving something to get at something keeps tempers from fraying.
Size=safety. Harder to pitch pole/capsize/overwhelm. With more weight in hull/ house/ deck steel has issues compared with aluminum in achieving right arm. For same displacement the aluminum vessel can have greater weight in ballast.
Weight is the enemy of speed. Why put that non productive weight in the hull when you can use it for infill.
What Brent said about aluminum may of had some limited truth 20 or 30 years ago with modern design,chemistry and coating systems it has little merit now. No one is walking on bare aluminum decks. They are leaving hulls bare and maintenance free above the waterline. I would ask Brent to name a single modern aluminum professionally built voyager lost to electrolysis .
Also if you build in aluminum you will recover far more of your outlay when you swallow the anchor.
One thing Brent said that has merit
Size= expense. However for a voyager one must consider when at sea the expenses of the hard edges of the sea don't apply.
Look at what people are currently building and buying to voyage. Aluminum is an overwhelming favorite over steel. These are experienced sailors with multiple boats behind them.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Lastly one should note the hull is 10 to 20% of your total expenditure. Search this forum and see how poorly small steel boats do as regards return on investment. Especially those not of modern design. Unless you are hugely wealthy you will get to do this once.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Keep in mind that except for moorage, ongoing costs escalate non-linearly with size, so the costs of maintaining a 35-40 footer will be substantially less than a 45-50 footer - something to consider once you're done with the build/purchase plan.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

..and that living full time on a 45-50ft boat would be far more comfortable.

Let me get back to steel. For instance here in my town I have a great shipyard that builds professional steel boats. if I was going to make a boat here I would have many advantages in building a steel boat being the biggest of them price and quality of build.

If I was building in Holland that difference would not be that big not even here if they were experience in building in aluminium, but they don't have. So in the end if I chose to build a passagemaker to do what you want and have to build it here it is possible that I would have opted for steel and that's why I say that first you should look what you have locally available in what regards shipyards.

If built in Steel I would try to compensate the weight disadvantage in what regards speed with Length on the water line and I would build a bigger boat, 50ft or so.

Take also in consideration the main disadvantage of building a steel boat regards selling it, and you will sell it one day. It will return you almost no money, much less than what you would get with an aluminium boat. Resale values for steel boats are terribly low. Make a search and you will see what I am talking about.


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

I am sorry people for this late reply, I was off yesterday. Comments and answers are bellow.
Outbound: No, (un)fortunately I am not wealthy.
Faster: Thanks!
PCP: Thanks. 
All the discussions we are having in respect to size and material are really making me think again. I will try to find AL and steel boat builders with experience before I make any decisions in respect to material. 
Best,


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Paulo,
Quick question: I found some references about weight. Apparently, a steel boat with the same size and design would weight 2-3 times more than an AL one. Is this accurate? What about a foam-fiberglass boat?
Best,


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

No that is not true if one considers total displacement. The steel boat will be significantly heavier but weight of stores, infill, fuel/water, rigging etc. is independent of hull weight. Heavier boats require more sail area etc. which further increase weight but this is marginal.Similarly even inside a particular hull material there will be great variation. For instance, an aluminum boat built for high latitude sailing will have greater storage and tankage. It will have thicker plate ( especially forward) and heavier scantlings than a boat built for coastal/near shore racing/cruising.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

grafare said:


> Paulo,
> Quick question: I found some references about weight. Apparently, a steel boat with the same size and design would weight 2-3 times more than an AL one. Is this accurate? What about a foam-fiberglass boat?
> Best,


No, the difference is not so big. If it is the same type of boat would be less than 2 times and that is huge. All that difference in weight can be utilized in ballast creating a stiffer boat and to carry load.

The only other material that I would consider besides steel and aluminium to build that type of boat on a shipyard would be marine plywood and epoxy or strip planking. Wood can be a surprisingly strong material and also easy to work and repairable anywhere. That is one of the type of the materials that are used on French voyage boats, namely the RM. Check out on Videos the RM 1350/1360

RM YACHTS | RM 1360

The designer of that boat, Marc Lombard has several great plans. Some of my favorite voyage boats, in Aluminium and strip planking:

Run 45

Randonneur 1200

Alezan 495

Run 45 DS

Regards

Paulo


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

May also want to keep your eyes open for a used Ovni. That way get to escape the building process and get a well known excellent vessel that would serve your intentions.


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Outbound: I am reviewing some of my initial premises and hull material is among them. Also, I have been reading a lot about aluminum, specially about galvanic corrosion, and a few issues that people tend to link only to aluminum boats, but they are present in steel as well and in some extension in fiberglass. As far as size goes, I am still thinking about what would be the “ideal” size, and I believe it is directly linked to the choice of material: the heavier boat, the harder it will be to single hand it. Therefore, if size matters to comfort, an aluminum boat would preferable. I saw some nice OVNIs built in France!
Faster: I figured that! Size also represents sailing autonomy and comfort, so it is hard to balance ongoing costs with these 2. They are very hard to consider….. 
PCP: Agreed. I have reviewed a few projects designed from some of the NAs you pointed me to and they are really great and well thought out. Great comfort on the 45-50 range, and with weight reduction, it will increase autonomy considerably when compared to steel. I must confess that my initial concerns about aluminum are almost gone away, but on trip repair (especially in some forgotten but beautiful beach surrounded by “natural beauties”) might be a ***** due to equipment and environment! 
Best,


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

G - your last comment is one of the reasons I went with a solid glass hull. Yes it's old school.yes it's heavier then cored or Al. Everything else is divinylcell giving me a light top. My thinking was I'm never doing high latitude but I want a hull which is low maintenance and fixable just about anywhere. Also repairs I can judge if done correctly returning the vessel to original strength. Knowing myself and my bride and our need for water/fuel/spares/tools/pack ratting the hull weight didn't seem to signify. It would be different with the excessive weight of steel.
Gave a lot of thought to various wood epoxy methods and would go with this if I was doing a full one off not a semi custom. Impressed cold molded or strip plank with appropriate skins is a very viable way to go.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

G- don't be intimidated by size. We are in our sixties and not buff. Both my 4'10" wife and myself stand single handed watches. Docking in a slip even with a thruster with a wind is exciting so try to call ahead for line handlers. Sailing the boat is the easy part. I think when the sails get so big you are dependent on power to handle them the boat is too big. Think that line for me was around 50'. For you if you're young and fit even that may not by an obstacle. Remember even before our geared multi speed winches " a man and a boy" handled large schooners. If this is an issue go with a split rig.


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## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

Off topic It was in this thread, Paulo How much does it take to be top notch ? Do you have to finish in the money for a round the world race to be top notch ? This DR. Stanley has been around the world already. He seems to be an athletic person. Long distance events and publicity attract him. He has a real beyond nice boat ! looks top notch to me, He might not be in the top ten but a top man he is. Would Lin and Larry or Fatty Goodlander, Hal Roth, Sir Shackleton make the grade ? How high is this bar.
I have to ask you my friend because it is rare for me to find you off the mark but we are human. We are all top notch we only need others to see it.
Good day, Lou


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Lou452 said:


> Off topic It was in this thread, Paulo How much does it take to be top notch ? Do you have to finish in the money for a round the world race to be top notch ? This DR. Stanley has been around the world already. He seems to be an athletic person. Long distance events and publicity attract him. He has a real beyond nice boat ! looks top notch to me, He might not be in the top ten but a top man he is. Would Lin and Larry or Fatty Goodlander, Hal Roth, Sir Shackleton make the grade ? How high is this bar.
> I have to ask you my friend because it is rare for me to find you off the mark but we are human. We are all top notch we only need others to see it.
> Good day, Lou


Lou, I don't understand your question. Regarding Dr Stanley he was not only cruising or making a non stop circumnavigation but trying to beat a record. That does not make much sense to me at the age of 76 but it was what he was doing and the boat he choose had to do with that.

For what I understand Grafare is not looking for a top boat (and a top boat varies with what we want to accomplish with it) but just a good cruising bluewater boat, a solid one that can take a considerable load (since it will be his home) and one that sails well. The option to build the boat has to do with huge taxes that are applied in Brazil regarding pleasure boats, used (if imported) or new. Building a boat he will not have to pay those taxes that in some cases can reach 100%.

Regards

paulo


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## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

I think it is a typo ? I make them all the time. Your post # 29 would seem to indicate Dr. Stanly is average or just a sailor that happens to be on a boat ? the use of the word not. " Not a top sailor " I read most of what you post because it is so good. 
Good day, Lou


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Outbound: I have changed my mind a bit, now 45-55 seems to be the way to go, but, for sure, it will depend upon the project. Also, I want to have the equipment and gadgets to facilitate my job, but with the necessary contingencies. So, for example, a winch must be able to operate on electric power and man power! As for where to go and use, my son wants to be a biologist, so it would be nice to take him to extreme latitudes for short periods.


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Paulo: I am currently exploring a possible way to build the boat offshore and bring it to Brazil without paying all the taxes. No conclusions yet, but it seems doable and not too risky. If this solution turns out to be a possibility, building it in Europe might be the way to go.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Lou452 said:


> I think it is a typo ? I make them all the time. Your post # 29 would seem to indicate Dr. Stanly is average or just a sailor that happens to be on a boat ? the use of the word not. " Not a top sailor " I read most of what you post because it is so good.
> Good day, Lou


There are not top sailors with 76 years of age not even if he would have been once one. After 50 everybody starts to lose abilities and capacities that loss increases substantially after 60 and even more after 70.

Not a problem continuing sailing after 60, or 70 or even 80 but taking into account our own limitations that come naturally with age. Dr Santley was not cruising at a leisure pace but doing a non stop navigation with a very powerful boat trying to beat a record. Beating records is a form of racing and I don't think it makes any sense racing with well over 70 years, neither sailing solo a very powerful boat.

Grafare, sorry this detour about the subject of this thread.

Regards

Paulo


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

No problem, my friend. BTW, I have a blog where I put all the info gathered around. You can access it on: Aventura de Magalhães


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## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

I hope the off topic can be overlooked. Sorry about that. 
PCP should be of great help. He seems to be able to pick some of the best boats to match up with the folks that wish to use them.
He shares a language and some things can not be translated. Brazil is a great place. 
For me If I was going to have a metal boat I would want to look at the aluminum. Its wide spread use is on the rise. Pop cans all over the place. Welding and the ability to weld it is advancing. Many welding machines are now coming with this option. Technology will only move forward at an ever increasing pace. They know a lot more about anodes now then they did even ten years ago. I say this as a welder with a fair amount of time in the trade. Steel has some very good things going for it. Steel is still a good choice. Aluminum would seem to have a lot of what you seem to be looking for. Wood and fiberglass is good but far from what you want.
Good day, Lou


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

grafare said:


> No problem, my friend. BTW, I have a blog where I put all the info gathered around. You can access it on: Aventura de Magalhães


Ok, I had a look at your site and it seems you are for real

So a last suggestion: Some years back I was seriously thinking in a boat for doing pretty much what you are doing and the boat I liked more was this one by Dick Zall:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/966815-post3307.html

It joins a fantastic seaworthiness, a decent speed and the ability to go anywhere or to seek shelter near the coast, on anchor, due to the lifting keel.

This boat is built in Holland by a small shipyard and is very expensive but I found out that Dick Zall has a study for a similar boat on is portfolio of standard designs, this one:

http://www.dickzaalyachtdesign.nl/yachts/moreinfo/?id=1432

I like the boat but I did not wanted a boat with a racing outlook. I wanted a boat with a pilot house that would serve not only for steering the boat (Joy stick) but also to have a sea berth that allows an easy surveillance of everything at the middle of the night, just by seating and looking around.

I modified that design in what regards the interior also making it a bit longer (88cms) as a way to fit everything and to have the space to carry a small dinghy on a garage. I contacted Dick Zall and asked him if he could change his plans accordingly with my drawings. He said yes, for a small amount regarding the cost of the original plans.

This was what I have draw:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1234330-post2870.html

Live changed and I did not went ahead with this project.
If eventually this is of any use to you I can give you the plans as they are, providing you give me a ride on your boat when you pass by Portugal or the Med, just to look how it looks and sails.

That Zall design is still a modern one, a light boat with a big B/D ratio, a huge stability and lots of sail. If you don't want all that sail you can always have a smaller rig and keep the stability. I was planning in doing that since for questions related with simplicity and interior I was not planning in using the water ballast tanks that are previewed on the design.

I don't know the cost of doing a boat like this in Brazil but surely it would be a lot less than the cost of an Atlantic 43.

Regards

Paulo


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

grafare said:


> Size: It is my intention to have the bigger boat possible that I can single hand it.


Not really a problem with care, thought, and good judgment. I single hand boats to 50 feet regularly and sometimes to 60 feet.



grafare said:


> I still need to come up with a shortlist of designers and projects. Without that, it will be very hard to come up with a budget and strategy to manage this project. So far, I came across: Van de Stadt, Berckemeyr, Olivier van Meer, Marc Lombard, Ted Brewer, Dick Zaal, Tanton, Dudley Dix, Ted Brewer and Roberto Barros (Cabinho).


At the risk of adding to your list I suggest you add German Frers, who have an office in Argentina, and Farr Yacht Design. In the case of the latter talk to Jim Schmicker and tell him Dave Skolnick referred you.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Jim, any good NA with experience in aluminium or steel boats will be able to custom design a boat that will fit his needs. The problem here is that a custom design can costs 10 times more than a stock project that is an existent project that is available and sold to several clients as it is. To my knowledge neither German and Frers neither Farr Yacht Design has stock plans.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Grafare, if I may add to the advice being given ... why not use Thierry Stump as your designer (he did Amyr Klink's Paratii 2) and use Amyr's yard outside São Paulo. They are both probably the best in the country for aluminium work. Personally, I'd buy something used in the US and go sailing. Any boat boat building project in Brazil is going to cost a fortune, as you probably know by now.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Think the small 54' bougainvillea would fit his bill with Dr some mods. He may also want to speak with Ed Joy


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Links:

.. Equipe Thierry Stump ..

Amyr's estaleiro is in Itapevi-SP, but I can't find the link to it right now.

Boa sorte!


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

copacabana said:


> Links:
> 
> .. Equipe Thierry Stump ..
> 
> ...


Yes it makes sense to use a good and experienced aluminum shipyard, or at least a crew that works for them but I guess they will be happy to build any good design from a any other NA. I saw what they have done and It seems well done but not really any design I really like.

Why do you say that the building in Brazil would be very expensive? I thought that it should be a lot less expensive than in Europe.

Regards

Paulo


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

PCP: Back a bit&#8230;.I am not a "top sailor", perhaps one day in not too distant future, but I am 43 years old "yet", so, unless **** hits the fan, there is plenty of time to be an "ok" sailor. Hummmm, I am for real but some say this music was written inspired on me: 



 ..... just kidding.
The Atlantic project is fantastic, but I prefer the 51 instead of the 43. On the same line, I like the Stadtship 56 Stadtship 56 Oester / K&M Yachtbuilders , designed by Van de Stadt and built by K&M. However, I don't know if it has the same stability and seaworthiness. I am also into the pilothouse and hard dodger.
I like your design. So far, my list of requirements have the following items (some are also in your list/design):
A strong, fast, comfortable, functional and easily handled boat perfectly suited for both high latitude and tropical sailing. Ideal size, 45-55 ft. She must have 3 berths, to accommodate 6 (4 guests) people. A protected (center) cockpit and hard dodger fixed in plate structure. Unpainted aluminum hull above the waterline, centerboard (or variable bulb), shallow draft, fractional sloop (or cutter) rigged. A deck saloon with good all-round visibility. Good access to engine room. Well-designed stern with dinghy davits and a platform or scoop with a folding or retractable ladder. A larger-than-standard self-draining gas locker with space for additional tanks Retractable bowsprit, quick and easy access to the chain locker with a vertical drop to avoid the chain getting snagged, and a powerful and reliable windlass. A well-planned reefing system with lines led back to the cockpit, ideally to an electric winch. Well designed spaces for electric storage and generation by solar panels and wind. Bigger diesel (close to 1.500 km range) and water tanks. Lightning protection. Mosquito screen. Well insulated with thermo-acoustic protection. Good sailing capabilities in light and upwind. Dedicated workshop/garage. Light interior and decks (no wooden furniture/finishing), with minimum moving parts. Tempered glass windows. Watertight aluminum doors. Power generator. Diesel heater.
You are mostly welcomed to sail with me. Perhaps I will learn a bit from you.
Let's postpone the discussion about where to build it. 
In respect to the cost of a NA, could you please give me ballpark figures?
The cost of building and equipping it in Brazil will be gigantic. Brazilian tax system is very complex and sucks. You end up being double taxed on many items. Work force, due to inflation, is currently very expensive. Equipment is imported, so you have to pay 100% taxes (at least) and the markup/service charged by vendor/importer. 
SVAuspicious: Thanks for the feedback. I would like to have a 45-55 boat, but I am just a little concerned about single hand it. German is already on my other list (a very long one), but not Jim. I will add him now, but according to Google, Jim works for Farr (and Farr is on my list).
Copacabana: Thanks. I like Thierry, but he seems to be very busy and charges a lot more than a foreign builder, and we still have many taxes on the top of it to make him less competitive. But I will definitely talk to him when the time comes. Regarding buying used, not an option at this point, for many reasons. By the way, I grew up in Copacabana, between Xavier and Bolivar.
Outbound: Kanter is on my list, thanks.

Best,


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

PCP: This Van de Stadt design looks very similar to the Atlantic 51 (or perhaps I am mixing apples and oranges!): Van de Stadt Design - Tonga 56


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

PCP said:


> Yes it makes sense to use a good and experienced aluminum shipyard, or at least a crew that works for them but I guess they will be happy to build any good design from a any other NA. I saw what they have done and It seems well done but not really any design I really like.
> 
> Why do you say that the building in Brazil would be very expensive? I thought that it should be a lot less expensive than in Europe.
> 
> ...


Paulo, I believe you could build the hull cheaper in Brazil than Europe, but everything else like winches, hatches, pumps, ports, masts etc. would cost much more here because of the high taxes and small market. Argentina would be a good choice for building the boat as they have prices for parts almost on a par with the US.


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Copacabana: I am really not sure about the hull itself. Materials, power, workers and space rent are very expensive these days in Brazil. Argentina and Uruguay could be good possibilities, but currently there are substancial risks in Argentina.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

grafare said:


> PCP: ....
> The Atlantic project is fantastic, but I prefer the 51 instead of the 43 . On the same line, I like the Stadtship 56 Stadtship 56 Oester / K&M Yachtbuilders , designed by Van de Stadt and built by K&M. However, I don't know if it has the same stability and seaworthiness. I am also into the pilothouse and hard dodger.
> I like your design. So far, my list of requirements have the following items (some are also in your list/design):
> A strong, fast, comfortable, functional and easily handled boat perfectly suited for both high latitude and tropical sailing. Ideal size, 45-55 ft. She must have 3 berths, to accommodate 6 (4 guests) people. A protected (center) cockpit and hard dodger fixed in plate structure. Unpainted aluminum hull above the waterline, centerboard (or variable bulb), shallow draft, fractional sloop (or cutter) rigged. A deck saloon with good all-round visibility. Good access to engine room. Well-designed stern with dinghy davits and a platform or scoop with a folding or retractable ladder. A larger-than-standard self-draining gas locker with space for additional tanks Retractable bowsprit, quick and easy access to the chain locker with a vertical drop to avoid the chain getting snagged, and a powerful and reliable windlass. A well-planned reefing system with lines led back to the cockpit, ideally to an electric winch. Well designed spaces for electric storage and generation by solar panels and wind. Bigger diesel (close to 1.500 km range) and water tanks. Lightning protection. Mosquito screen. Well insulated with thermo-acoustic protection. Good sailing capabilities in light and upwind. Dedicated workshop/garage. Light interior and decks (no wooden furniture/finishing), with minimum moving parts. Tempered glass windows. Watertight aluminum doors. Power generator. Diesel heater.
> ...


The cost of the NA will be the last of your concerns if you are looking at boats like the Stadtship 56 or the Atlantic 51. Those boats will cost over a million and you were talking about 500 000 USD. Besides the VDS 56 is not a stock plan.

Regarding the stock plan you have refereed from Vand de Stadt it is one of the more modern among the ones that they propose (they tend to be all old designs) but the only similitude with the Atlantic is having a lifting keel. The hulls are very different.

Regarding the boat that once I intended to build, more than 10 years ago the estimated price would be around 400 000 euros, including the price of plans. I believe that today it will cost more than the 500 000 USD you have talked about.

More than 10 years ago the price of an Atlantic 43 was about 520 000 euros without VAT. Now it would cost certainly substantially more.

Regarding the price of plans if you are interested you have just to send an email to the NAs with stock planes that interest you, like Vand de Stadt or Dick Zall and ask. Regarding the prices of the plans for the boat that I intended to build, it was more than 10 years ago and I don't remember exactly the prices but I remember that changing the stock plan for what I had designed was not a significant difference, I believe it was something like 2000 euros.

But I have said plans, specially if stock ones are just a small percentage (maybe 5%) of the real cost of the boat. You should focus first on the budget you really have available because unless you can spend 3 times more than the figures you have talked about, considering sophisticated aluminium boats over 50fts or one offs makes no sense. That's all a question of money. If you have enough do just like SVauspicious suggested: Contact a good NA with experience in Aluminium boats and tell him what you want and I am sure he will be able to do it, for about 15% to 20% of the cost of the boat.

Regards

Paulo


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## grafare (Jan 3, 2014)

Paulo,
I will definitely think about your comments. I am not concerned right now, because, as said before, I can stretch my budget if necessary and the overall result is worth of it. Let us put the discussion about where to build it and the budget for that aside for a while. 
Best,
Guilherme


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