# LifeCaulk vs. 3M 4200



## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

I'm re-caulking where my chainplates pass through the deck. Sabre's original user's manual (circa 1984) shows LifeCaulk but I'm wondering if 4200 is a better sealant. Should I stay with Life Caulk?


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

4200 is a mild adhesive as well as a claimed sealant.

Life caulk is a sealant.

Butyl tape is better than both.

Butyl tape sold by Maine Sail is a superior butyl tape.

C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking - Chainplates flix


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

This Sabre suffered from chronic chain plate leaks. The PO of the boat got so frustrated after re-sealing them almost yearly, with everything from 5200 to 3M 101, that he tried SILICONE..... This only made things worse, MUCH WORSE...










This is how bad SILICONE contamination can be...

This is 4200 is and it stuck to NOTHING due to the silicone contamination. The current owner THOUGHT he removed the silicone but had not..









I spent an entire hour, on just one chain plate, removing the silicone contamination via grinding wheels Dremel tools and lots of nasty chemicals. I then re-bedded it with my butyl tape and it has been 100% bone dry since...


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Maine, do you allow the butyl to be exposed on the deck? I'm rebedding my chain plates which also go through the deck in a similar fashion. I'm concerned about the portion of the butyl that will be exposed to UV and dirt/grime.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

I too have tried everything, except silicone. I'm pretty sensitive to my chainplates due to the neglect the PO allowed. I have a new leak at the stbd aft lower shroud that needs tending. 

I use butyl tape for all my other deck hardware, but am curious about sealing the chainplates this way. Do I wrap the tape around the plate and push it firmly into the deck recess, covering with the SS plate?


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Sabreman said:


> I'm re-caulking where my chainplates pass through the deck. Sabre's original user's manual (circa 1984) shows LifeCaulk but I'm wondering if 4200 is a better sealant. Should I stay with Life Caulk?


Whatever the outcome of this discussion will be, THANKS A LOT for posting this image! I have a persistent leak at two lower shroud chainplates but I never thought of adding a sealant groove (I hope the engineer that drew the plan was better with engineering than with spelling; I am pretty confident that he or she meant 'groove' when writing 'grove' 

I have rebedded them thrice, first with RV-style butyl tape, then with the one-and-only Mainsail tape, then (in desperation) with Lifecaulk. Each time somewhat chamfered at the top but still leaking. I will make a fourth effort after cutting the whole thing open again and this time leave a 3/8" groove around the chainplate.

Will wait for the outcome of this discussion to see what to actually put in the groove.


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

asdf38 said:


> Maine, do you allow the butyl to be exposed on the deck? I'm rebedding my chain plates which also go through the deck in a similar fashion. I'm concerned about the portion of the butyl that will be exposed to UV and dirt/grime.


Would also like to know this answer, thanks!!


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

By the way, that diagram is GOLD!


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

asdf38 said:


> Maine, do you allow the butyl to be exposed on the deck? I'm rebedding my chain plates which also go through the deck in a similar fashion. I'm concerned about the portion of the butyl that will be exposed to UV and dirt/grime.


It won't hurt it at all... It might collect some grime over the years but you can wipe it with a rag slightly dampened with mineral spirits and clean it up...


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I have rebedded them thrice, first with RV-style butyl tape, then with the one-and-only Mainsail tape, then (in desperation) with Lifecaulk. Each time somewhat chamfered at the top but still leaking. I will make a fourth effort after cutting the whole thing open again and this time leave a 3/8" groove around the chainplate.
> 
> Will wait for the outcome of this discussion to see what to actually put in the groove.


I would be checking for "tracking leaks". These are leaks that track through the deck or between the deck and liner and come out at an area that is not at all where the water went in.

I had a boat seven weeks ago that had a leak over the nav station. Owner re-bedded everything within a 5' radius of the nav desk. Still had a leak. I happened to notice a slight dampness behind a hanging locker around a screw and the leak was traced to the forward port light. Rebedded that port and the problem went away... Water was tracking all the way from the forward port light to the nav desk before it found a means of egress into the boat. Chainplates are a great area where tracking leaks occur if the deck has not been potted.

If the deck has been potted care must be taken to make sure there is minimal to no movement in the chain plate and that the butyl is in compression, (really packed in) if using butyl....


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Maine Sail said:


> I would be checking for "tracking leaks". These are leaks that track through the deck or between the deck and liner and come out at an area that is not at all where the water went in.
> 
> I had a boat seven weeks ago that had a leak over the nav station. Owner re-bedded everything within a 5' radius of the nav desk. Still had a leak. I happened to notice a slight dampness behind a hanging locker around a screw and the leak was traced to the forward port light. Rebedded that port and the problem went away... Water was tracking all the way from the forward port light to the nav desk before it found a means of egress into the boat. Chainplates are a great area where tracking leaks occur if the deck has not been potted.
> 
> If the deck has been potted care must be taken to make sure there is minimal to no movement in the chain plate and that the butyl is in compression, (really packed in) if using butyl....


Thanks above.

I'm hoping I have a tracking leak right now from the chainplates to a stanchion base that I rebed last year. I'm hoping that rebedding the chainplates eliminates the leak.

Part of the reason I think that's the cause is that the PO sealed this chainplate from the inside, trapping the water inside the deck where it ran to the nearby stanchion hardware.

Never seal from the inside.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Maine Sail said:


> I would be checking for "tracking leaks". These are leaks that track through the deck or between the deck and liner and come out at an area that is not at all where the water went in.


Good point but there is no liner in my boat at this location, right at the toe rail. Just the bare deck...



Maine Sail said:


> If the deck has been potted care must be taken to make sure there is minimal to no movement in the chain plate and that the butyl is in compression, (really packed in) if using butyl....


That is actually why I went to the Lifecaulk, because I thought that the puny screws holding down the cover plate would not really put anything in compression. I rebedded the cleats with the butyl tape, where the through-bolts put down a lot of force, and haven't had any issues there. I thought the slightly adhesive character of Lifecaulk might help in this case but, as I said, it did not really.

So I will definitely add the groove but am still not sure if I should use butyl or Lifecaulk.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Good point but there is no liner in my boat at this location, right at the toe rail. Just the bare deck...


But you do have a deck core (I assume) and water can run inside that. So it's possible.

That said, chainplates are high on the list of things that leak on a boat given the geometry and the amount of flexing they do. So if you have a chainplate leak it probably really is the chainplate. But you never know.

Also, what about those screw holes? A leak in the screw hole could come out the chainplate inside.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

asdf38 said:


> But you do have a deck core (I assume) and water can run inside that. So it's possible.
> 
> That said, chainplates are high on the list of things that leak on a boat given the geometry and the amount of flexing they do. So if you have a chainplate leak it probably really is the chainplate. But you never know.
> 
> Also, what about those screw holes? A leak in the screw hole could come out the chainplate inside.


In principle, it could be the deck. But what are the chances that it leaks JUST around the two chainplates?

The screws do not go through and they are potted in epoxy.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

I think that the answer to my question is:



> that the butyl is in compression, (really packed in)





> By the way, that diagram is GOLD!


I have an entire 1" thick book of diagrams and specs from Sabre. They have the best user's manual that I've ever seen. I scanned them and have them on the iPad for fast reference. I also have the one from our Sabre 28. If anyone wants it, PM me.


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## gedaggett (Oct 21, 2008)

Dow Corning 795 is a great product. I have used it on everything from retrofit polycarbonate windows on Catalina 30 (no fasteners just the adhesive) to sealing the mast, chainplate, deck cleats. It is very versatile and unlike the 3M products doesn't require etching or scuffing on polycarbonate or acrylic materials. Great product. (disclaimer: I have no vested interest in Dow Corning)


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

gedaggett said:


> Dow Corning 795 is a great product. I have used it on everything from retrofit polycarbonate windows on Catalina 30 (no fasteners just the adhesive) to sealing the mast, chainplate, deck cleats. It is very versatile and unlike the 3M products doesn't require etching or scuffing on polycarbonate or acrylic materials. Great product. (disclaimer: I have no vested interest in Dow Corning)


I'm curious what other people say but I think the issue with Dow 795 is that it's silicon based and therefore has the contamination and other issues associated with that. This is what sailingdog said in his well known sealant post:



sailingdog said:


> *Silicone-based sealants aren't really sealants IMHO. * They're really gasket materials, and need to have a minimum thickness and be kept under compression to work properly. Silicone-based sealants should only be used in above-the-waterline applications.
> 
> The only structural silicone sealant that I generally recommend is Dow 795. This is a structural adhesive which is generally recommended for bedding ports. It is not your common silicone caulk. However, beyond the very specific use of bedding acrylic* ports, it should not be used on boats.
> 
> ...


http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/53812-marine-sealants-nutshell.html#post479453

That said, if Dow 795 is as strong as described, I'm not sure why exactly it's not suited for other tasks, assuming you don't care about the contamination issue. And I'm not sure why you would if you planned to use Dow 795 or other silicon going forward.


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