# Prop Drag :folder vs Max



## JDAM (Mar 31, 2003)

I repowered my Ranger 33 with a 20 HP Diesel, and am now selecting a prop. The choice is between a Martec 2 blade folder, or a 2 blade feathering Max Prop. I understand the Max prop is excellent in reverse, but has more drag under sail. We do club race. Extra power in reverse is a good thing, but I wonder if the drag differential between the two props is significant, and might tend to hurt light air performance.

Any input would be appreciated.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

did you look into an autoprop?


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

What is the cost differential? We''ve got a martec 2-bladed folder that works fine for us. Of course we don''t motor more than we have to -- we have a sailboat.


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## JDAM (Mar 31, 2003)

The feathering Max prop is about twice the price, however reverse is reportedly quite a bit improved over the folding Martec. 

We back out of a slip often enough so that reverse is a consideration, but not at the price of significant increased drag.


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## Silmaril (Feb 22, 2003)

If you are concerned about drag under sail, the Martek 2-bladed folding prop is the best, bar none. They are worth maybe 1/10 kt over the feathering props. If all you are concerned about is getting in and out of your slip, go with the Martek.

If you are planning on cruising and using your engine for making time when necessary, go with the feathering props. They are way more efficient under power than the folding props. They act most like a fixed prop. A great help in making your fuel last longer while motoring.

I use the Martek. They are inexpensiive, and can be rebuilt. Mine has been rebuilt twice, over about 15 years. Ran about $300 each time, including labor to pull and install.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The Max-prop has a touch more drag than the Martec but the difference is small, especially as compared to a fixed prop. I don''t agree the Max-prop is far more efficient in normal motoring. Max-prop blades are flat, with no twist or cup. Both tests I have seen and discussions with people who have them confirm the Max-prop is not all that efficient in forward. People who find them so are usually responding to the ability to adjust the pitch. A properly pitched Max-prop will be better than another type that might be more efficient but is not pitched right.

The Martec is not the greatest in reverse but it can do the job. How much power do you need to back out of a slip? They aren''t that bad in forward. Years ago I raced against a friend with a sistership. We both had Yanmar 2QM15''s swinging 14x14 props. I had a Martec, he had a 2 blade fixed. We were way faster under sail, but what got him was one day motoring alongside to a race start we tried setting throttles to the same rpm. At each throttle setting we would slowly walk away, including flat out. He bought a Martec after that. We learned a two-bladed fixed prop has its own compromises. Blade area is reduced on some models to lessen drag.

I''d only get a Max-prop if power in reverse was the highest priority, they are unmatched for that.


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## JDAM (Mar 31, 2003)

Thanks for all the input. 

Sounds like the drag differential between the Max Prop and Martec 2 blade folder may not be significant. The blades on the Max prop seem to have quite a bit more surface area than the Martec, but the boats rated the same by phrf with either prop.


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## wwilson (Jul 7, 2000)

Silmaril,

Can you share where the 0.1-kt differential came from? I''m familiar with a now pretty old evaluation done by MIT that concluded there was no meaningful difference in drag between a broad set of props that included both folders and featherers. The 0.1-kt figure you offer is the first time I''ve seen a difference quantified. Is that from test, modeling or anecdotal?

Wayne


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## JDAM (Mar 31, 2003)

Wayne

Can you share any more information about that report?

If the feathering prop was equal in drag to the folder Iwould opt for the additional reverse power and go with the Max prop.


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## wwilson (Jul 7, 2000)

JDAM (a munition?)

Five years ago I went through the same attempt at research you are now about. After a reasonably exhaustive effort, I was able to find only one authoritative document despite any number of competing sales claims by manufacturers or owners justifying their purchases. 

MIT and Practical Sailor magazine teamed and did an analysis of fixed, folding and feathering propellers. You can search the PS web for the article. The testing was done >10 years ago so the paper will not be on line, but you can have PS send you a paper copy. The "drag" results were virtually the same for the folding and feathering propellers that they tested. If you are really concerned - buy the paper and read it. It is by no means the final word on this topic, but more reliable than anecdotal reports.

Wayne


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## Silmaril (Feb 22, 2003)

While not employing sophisticated test gear, back in the early eighties, I was working with the owners of a Peterson 34 to eek out every last 1/10th of a knot. Over a weekend, we tried 3 different props. with her 2 cyl. Yanmar diesel. We went with the then new Gori, a Martek, and a 2 blade "Sailor" for sails. We logged as much info as we could. Swapping the wheels twice each. Pain in the arse, actually. When all was said and done, we settled on the Martek. It looked to be marginally faster under sail. Could have been atributed to diferent wind and wave conditions between the time it took to change the wheel and get back sailing. Stricktly seat of the pants, back to back stuff.

That all being said, "Your results may vary" The hull shape/form and factors such as where the prop is positioned and how much of it is "exposed" to undisturbed flow etc. comes into effect. The effects of a different prop would be more noticable on a highly refined racing hull design, then a more cruising oriented boat. 

But when you are worrying about that extra little bit of speed under sail, it''s rarely the prop that will make a difference. Proper sailing skills, and a clean bottom go far more towards overall speed than the prop will ever make.

Caveats: The Martek may be slower under sail in light wind if you fail to line up and then lock your shaft so that the blade hinge is vertical. If you don''t, gravity will take over and one of the blades will fall open. Noticable? Maybe in a lab, but winning takes covering every little detail. The feathering props have some additional drag if the prop shaft is not completely horizontal. Many boats have the shaft angled down. The feathering props are designed so that on a completely horizontal shaft, the flow over them is minimized. But as the shaft angle increases, the "ideal" flow over them is changed to a more angled flow. Causing a bit more turbulence. Measuable in the lab, sure. Can you feel it on the water? Probably not.

Basically, go with a properly fitted wheel, of whatever design you prefer. Keep your bottom clean, hit the starts on time, always choose the right sail, always go the the correct side of the windward leg, never blow a gybe, and whaterver prop you use wont really matter.


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## JDAM (Mar 31, 2003)

Silmaril

Thanks again for the input. While the boat is quite old, 32 yrs to be exact, the bottom is polished VC offshore, the inventory is primarily Doyle/ North Kevlar, and the rudder, an eliptical Gary Mull re-design. The last outing in the fall produced a win over a Quest 30 rating 90 and J29 in about 15 true, first prize being 30 % off the yard bill. I know about the importance of the details you noted, and after going to all the trouble I dont want to add a prop that has significantly more drag.

The knowledge here about this is more than my own.


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## Silmaril (Feb 22, 2003)

Well, if you have gone that far in race prep all ready, by all means, go with the Martek.

You can also do a little trick we used in the past as well. Once at the starting area and you are done with your motor, have a crew jump over with a light rubber band, something that fits snugly around the folded blades. Not too big a rubber band, you want it to come off/break-free when you put it in gear after the race. Not too small either, you want something that will stay on during a blast reach as well. This will keep the blades folded, and keep them from flapping in the chop that sometimes accompanies light or no breeze.

Every little bit helps.


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