# Alcohol and skippering: do you or don't you?



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I made a facetious retort in another thread about drinking and boating, but it made me curious about other skipper's habits.

I enjoy a malty or rum-based beverage as much as the next person, but I made a resolution to restrict my imbibing to the dock or the anchor (when I wasn't on watch, that is). I'm not ultra-strict about it, but if I have a can of beer when underway it must be a stinking hot day. I don't drive, but basically I treat the boat as if I was driving, and therefore don't drink alcohol when in motion. 

I started this before the water cops started giving people breathalyzers on the water. It was a personal, not a regulatory or "spoilsport" decision. As for crew, I expect one other person to stay cold sober. If there are guests, I don't care if they get completely faced, but I reserve the right to clip them in, restrict them to a bucket, or keel haul 'em if they get boisterous.

What are the views of those here? Abstainer, moderate drinker or "hell, the thing only goes five knots..." (I've seen the entire spectrum, including the delightful sight of wasted rail meat hurling down the topsides at the start line...)


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

*is it five o'clock yet?*

I sail absolutely sober and try to remedy that as quickly as possible when we reach the anchorage or dock.


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## pmoyer (Oct 3, 2006)

I don't while under sail or if it's likely that I'll be under sail in less than eight hours. Same with driving. Sorry to be a bore....

Cheers!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

There's a big difference between "drinks" and "drunk" I've crewed on a couple long distance races, and the most enjoyable was one where the skipper held a happy hour everyday a couple hours before sunset at crew change. Basically it was a progress and strategy meeting, but drinks were served. I don't remember the oncoming crew to drink anything more than a soda, I know I never did.

I will agree with Valiente, drinking is best done tied to a dock or at anchor.


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## donrr1 (Oct 25, 2002)

Well I'll get really boring, we don't consider alchohol important enough to be on our list of stores. We don't drink alot of alchohol at any time. For myself, it only takes me three or four pints of beer to feel like crap much of the next day. I don't find it worth that. 

There are other substances that I would wonder about as well as alchohol. Maybe another thread?  

Don


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

The 8-hour rule is a good one; the ONLY time I was ever seasick, sunny, warm day, 15-knot steady winds, even seas in long swells - no excuse except my hangover from the night before ...


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

At anchor, in some cove, perhaps a wee dram, a bourbon and chlorox, but usually not ... no party boy here ...


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## Newport41 (Jun 30, 2006)

I'll have a drink or two on the water but never past the point where I would feel safe to drive, so it really is just a drink, maybe two depending on who's mixing them. At anchor, I'll drink a bit more but not to the point where I couldn't help myself or someone else out of the water. Someone has to be able to reset the anchor or steer the dinghy right?


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## capngregg (Feb 8, 2007)

I must be a real bore too but I have lots of fun. No alcohol for me at all. I don't mind the guests getting wasted but nothing for the crew while we're underway. The inland lake where I do the majority of my sailing is dangerous enough without one more impaired skipper.


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## Guesser (Mar 24, 2007)

I was going through the Locks in Seattle a couple of weeks ago and this 45'+ powerboat had a crew of drunken idiots; it was pretty lame, and dangerous. The skipper looked sober, but I had my doubts. I've noticed that most sailer's are generally smart about it, whereas a lot of power boaters tend to associate boating with mandatory drinking. Pretty dumb. 

fyi - I don't drink (anymore).


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I'll have a beer between races if crewing but none if driving. Having drank like a fish in my younger days, the novelty of it wore off looong ago.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Wow. I thought I'd be seen as Capt. Buzzkill, but you guys all seem like responsible skippers! Ditto on the sailing hangover...that's the royal road to chundering, and the only time I've left a slick is after too many DnSs the night before on an "away" trip.

I will admit that the obviously drunk drivers seem to be in powerboats or PWCs, but I've seen some sail regattas or one-class meets where the "phffft" of beer cans opening is louder than the wind in the rigging...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'm glad to see that I'm in such good company. We never drink while underway and the bar doesn't open until we are certain that the anchor is holding and everything is properly stowed.

Now, I must admit that I have operated my dinghy a few times after a few drinks ashore, but that falls in the "powerboat" catagory....doesn't it. 

Roger


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## Jotun (May 4, 2006)

I'll swim against the tide here. I will, on occasion, have a beer or two while underway.... I see no problem with it.


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

Hmm.
Sailing in Adriatic is much more wet for most "sailors". 
The usual site in marinas every Saturday (charter change) is to see huge loads of cases of beer getting into the boats, wine is often loaded in plastic cans (10 or 20littre), full cases of hard liquor... for a week. 
The worst case I heard was a guy filling both water tanks with wine (one for red and one for white wine). That skipper could never rent a boat again - I heart the charter company had to replace the tanks as they could not get rid of the smell.
I know people (I crewed with hem) where a six pack of beer is gone before noon (per person - not in total), I know people where every action (tack, reef, turn, sail trim...) is celebrated by "maneuvering oil" (brandy) and the list goes on and on. 
I also drink, but I am almost seen a s a black ship restricting to one beer in a hot day and a few drinks after diner (nothing in any remote chance of bad weather).
The sailing you normally see in Adria is coastal day sail. A safe mooring on a mooring ball or tied to a dock (med moor) is a norm for every evening.
If I am on anchor lots of people think I am crazy - because most do not know how to use the anchor anyway.
I have seen boats where the crew were to drunk to tie the dock line.
I heard "cruise reports" where no one knew which ports they visited in a week as everybody was stoned all week....


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

stoutwench said:


> Now, I must admit that I have operated my dinghy a few times after a few drinks ashore, but that falls in the "powerboat" catagory....doesn't it.


that's the ticket, anything to throw the blame on the stinkpotters

We also follow the 'no booze until on the hook' rule, and even 'strongly suggest' that guests do likewise. (and no, that doesn't mean we drink our breakfast, though it might be within the letter of the rule)

...Though on further reflection, we're not very experienced, so perhaps this may explain our caution and we may relax this in the future, but don't see why, drinking isn't required for enjoyment, (run-on sentence alert! )


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## kennya (Jul 10, 2006)

Count me in on being a real bore also, a beer or two in port or anchor, maybe some wine with the evening meal. Underway is strictly water or on occasion soft drinks.


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

*Own Drum.*

It would seem any post to the contrary would elicit many stinky responses however, where angels fear to tread, there go I.
There have been crossings on L.Ont. in 8/10's where I have had to heave-to in order to pour a drink. Another time I had to run 14 miles with 2 reefs in order to have a pleasant drink and a rolled(tobacco!!!) cigarette. As a SH, without a prepacked lunch and a cooler in the cockpit, there is no alternative. This is a game that I play to enjoy, not to scourge myself into some sort of holier-than-thou political correctness. A long time ago I made the choice between a pirate and a preacher. As for beer, one per hour when on the helm; I have been boarded and passed by USCG many times under these conditions, and the subject was never raised.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

*USCG views as seen by a professional Capt.*

Ref: 8th CG Dist. Special Notice to Mariners 00-07 pg 56

You yachtsmen/women have the break here. 
The USCG comes aboard a private vessel and you have a .1% blood alcohol level, then you are considered drunk and that ticket is written. Possibility a $5000 fine and maybe jail time.

On the commercial vessels when the USCG comes aboard it is .04% and you are removed from the boat. A Very Probable lost of license, $5000 fine and jail time.

So the good thing is that I don't drink but for an O'Doul's every now and then. But many of my acquaintences are putting their livelyhood on the line when they have a few before coming to work.

So as a Maritime Instructor; I carefully point out this fact to my students.
Maybe some of them will listen and become careful in their drinking.

Hopefully anyway.

Just remember, USCG don't need a reason to board you, but seeing a open container in your hand is begging for it on your part. They don't need a search warrent to search your vessel and all items on board. So Please be careful


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

tigerregis & jotun

Not to worry, no 'stink' from me. I believe the OP asked for a poll and i'm glad to see some difference of opinion. I like that you had a limit, good to see what works for others in case my position feels like evolving. Thank you


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

tigerregis said:


> As a SH, without a prepacked lunch and a cooler in the cockpit, there is no alternative. This is a game that I play to enjoy, not to scourge myself into some sort of holier-than-thou political correctness.


I didn't mean to imply that this was the distinction. God knows sailing has cut badly into my boozing...but I just made a decision that if I ever screwed up badly, the news reports would never have cause to say "alcohol is suspected as a factor".

If we're on the dock and I've been in the sun, a couple of pints of rum will put me right out...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I have tried it a couple times, but never inhaled. 

I can't believe all the BSers on this thread. 

We like to drink when in port or at anchor for the night - usually wine, or Dark & Stormies . . . and lots of it. But rarely do I drink more than a beer or two while piloting _under fair skies _. . . even with my high threshold for incoherency while under the influence.


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

Valiente, did not mean you or anyone else. You asked a fair question and after all the Carrie Nation replies, just thought an honest answer was in order. How anyone enjoys themselves is up to them, until the constabulary is required to restore law and order. Remember, I said pirate not ...


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I have had a beer while sailing on a hot day, but never more than one. I must admit that my reluctance to drink more is motivated as much from fear of seasickness as my sense of responsibility. Also, I simply can't drink the way I used to; my body is taking its revenge on me for my misspent youth.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

mstern said:


> Also, I simply can't drink the way I used to; my body is taking its revenge on me for my misspent youth.


Take Revenge?? You are putting it lightly. Two Stents, Missing discs in the neck, and all that other stuff, such as 5 broken bones at one time or another and then some.  But still in good shape & health but for the minor details.

But it sure was fun.... Misspent? Nah! Hard living? Yeah! 49 years of working the seas for a living. 21 years Navy the rest Commercial time. Complaints?? Well? Can't get hired as a motorcycle Cop. Imagine being able to ride down the Highway above a hundred MPH and not get a ticket... And I had the speeding tickets when I rode bikes.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

While I drink very regularly on land, I tend not to much while sailing. On occation I will have a beer while underway, and "several" after we park. I have crewed on boats where each member of a crew of 6 was required to bring a "case of anything" as their ticket on board for a 2 day race.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

T34C said:


> While I drink very regularly on land, I tend not to much while sailing. On occation I will have a beer while underway, and "several" after we park. I have crewed on boats where each member of a crew of 6 was required to bring a "case of anything" as their ticket on board for a 2 day race.


The Hot Buttered Rum race in San Diego, was a blast... the HBR came after the race... But we had to sail back to the other end of the bay after the awards dinner. Well we didn't get lost. Just took awhile. Would you believe 'light airs'?


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## soul searcher (Jun 28, 2006)

In Florida it Is the same as being in a car. If the state water nazi's pull you over and think you are over .08 your going to jail getting a 1,000.00 dollar fine 100 hours of comunity service, and dui school, and possibly further treatment. unless your famous or have a really good lawyer
Not worth the risk to me. thats too many boat bucks.
when they started this they were arresting people at astronomical rate. Just to make sure the word got out. I heard of one guy in a kayac and another in a little dink with a five horse. so apparently they were pretty serios about it.
In one day at the local pirate fest they arrested 25 people in one day.
check your state rules.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

I will have a beer or two while underway. Where I sail the water is never crowded and I don't feel like I am risking my or anyone else's safety by having a beer or two.

One of my great pleasures is a hot sunny day, sitting on the high side in the shade and drinking a cold beer while the boat sails along.

Barry


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

*Say what*



tigerregis said:


> You asked a fair question and after all the Carrie Nation replies, just thought an honest answer was in order. How anyone enjoys themselves is up to them, until the constabulary is required to restore law and order. Remember, I said pirate not ...


So you're saying the posts prior to yours were all made by lying alcoholics? Of did i miss something?

Edit: i was glad to see other viewpoints, but calling me a liar? eff you!


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Water
Ice cold
So cold it's almost chunky
With a peach slice
Or a fresh strawberry or two
Boy do we know how to have fun!



Cardiologist approved ...


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## resdog (Mar 29, 2006)

As an inland small lake sailor, I'll admit I drink when we are sailing. I think it would be much different on a large body of water where it's imperative to keep your wits about you. I try not to get absolutely hammered as stupid things tend to happen - mostly running aground and being stuck in the mud.

I keep drinking to a minimum when on our powerboat for the day. You can hurt yourself or someone else very quickly at speed. The water patrol on our lake plays hell with powerboaters, they leave sailors alone.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

I think for recreational boating, they use the state rule, which tends to be around .08 for most states.

For commercial skippers, it's .04. For most people, it takes two drinks in succession, on an empty stomach, to exceed .04. So my limit is one drink every 4 hours, usually it's zero.


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## kennya (Jul 10, 2006)

*BSers*



TrueBlue said:


> I have tried it a couple times, but never inhaled.
> 
> I can't believe all the BSers on this thread.
> 
> I am Diabetic so, a beer or two in port or anchor, small glass of wine with the evening meal, Can put me over the edge. Therefore I prefer to enjoy what little I can at ease I, after the sailing is done. TB your cursing in the upper us  I can see where you might need a little extra to keep worm. Where I am at it's HOT and Humid Ice cold water does the trick. If i ever get up your way I be mor than happy to man the helm while you partake.


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## sharkbait (Jun 3, 2003)

1


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## donrr1 (Oct 25, 2002)

So.... Eh..... what's tina? So I can warn my kids.....


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## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

Having spent a 30+ year carreer in the beverage alcohol industry the stuff has long since lost it's alure. I always keep in mind, every penny spent on alcohol is a penny not spent on my boat. There are better things to spend my money on than alcohol not to mention the after effects of it. Alcohol is a waste of time & money but I managed to make a good living off those who indulge in the waste.


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

Rev'd Mike, was not referring to you or anyone else. I too have my religious BG and was Confirmed by His Grace The Bishop of Niagara. That I choose my lifestyle, automatically assures you of yours. You must admit, that when Jimmy Buffet gave up sailing for flying, that it indicates CaptKermie has a point. As well, proves my opening point, here comes the PC police.


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## Jotun (May 4, 2006)

OK. I'll admit it. When crewing on other boats I'll have more than one or two. But then I don't really end up crewing!  It's more kicking back in the sun and enjoying the ride. And usually, the skipper doesn't mind! And then there was that one night, we made a quick crossing of the bay to Annapolis. Dark, cold, pouring rain. There was a bottle of Pusser's on board. It was gone when we pulled up to the town dock.... Please don't hate me.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Well I drink wine at sea, and beer at the port.

I am from a Country with no alchool laws (except drink and drive, the lower limit in Europe), ans I drink wine since I am a kid.

Its part of my culture, and as such we learn how to use it with moderation.

Have sailed all my life with wine, and never got drunk at sea (while moving).

I enjoy in the Summer, going out about a mile, drop sails and have my sweet Giulietta prepare me some Margaritas, some wine or some Caipirinha.

I drink but do not drink past the point where my drinking can't prevent me from bringing the boat home.

Like all things in life...moderatiion is the word.

exageration and castation is not.


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## goose327 (Jun 11, 2001)

In my miss-spent youth I used to run my stinkpots on my breath,,,LOL.
I gave up alcohol years ago, now it's water and NON ALCOHOL St. Pauli or Buckler.
I will anchor up with Don though,,,,,


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## plumley1 (Apr 26, 2005)

A glass of wine at the end of a good day of sailing is my kind of drink.


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## jackytdunaway (Sep 11, 2006)

I'm with G. Moderation and all things can be enjoyed with out harm to yourself or others.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I'll drink and sail. I don't get blind drunk and sail but I'll sure as hell have a beer or a glass of wine when out and about. It's been some time since I last got falling down drunk so that's not really an issue. Drinking does not necessarily mean getting pissed as a parrot. 

OTOH, if doing a night passage, alcohol consumption is kept well and truely under control if only cos it makes me sleepy if I'm drinking late at night.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Im 22 and dont drink at all. I normally dont let my crew drink either. If they bring something, they cant touch it untill we are anchored or at the dock.


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## Jotun (May 4, 2006)

The bottom line is it's all about knowing when and where you can let your guard down. I am a drinker but do not condone being tipsy behind the wheel of a boat in a crowded waterway or behind the wheel of a car on a roadway.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

If the Heineken is cold enough, I drink it. If not, I will get some ice and make it cold. No ice, no cold beer, I can wait for either or both. 

I have never been sea or air sick, even when sailing with a hangover but have never flown under the influence. I am pretty confident that I could fly just fine with a couple of beers on board but it is just against the rules and to be honest, there are times when you get pretty busy flying and need both, both feet and all the attention you can focus. 

The same can be said for sailing in variable winds, difficult seas or busy areas, better to keep the mind focused on the task at hand and skills sharp. On a long reach with fair winds and following seas... bring me a cold one!
Bob in Rockport, MA


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Jotun said:


> Dark, cold, pouring rain. There was a bottle of Pusser's on board. It was gone when we pulled up to the town dock.... Please don't hate me.


Great Neptune's ballsack, man, that's not social drinking! Them there's emergency rations!


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## Jotun (May 4, 2006)

That fateful night....


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

none for me once the boat leaves the dock
pigslo


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

*gotcha beat there *

inventory as of today.
9 stents, 5 MI's, and one that should have been called one.
Guidant pacemaker/ICD, with get this, I'm wired(actually wireless) automatic upload of cardiac activity every 24hours & within one minute of "significant cardiac event" hehehe, the cardiologist says I'll know when that happens when I fall over and start to piss myself from getting shocked.

No booze-ola for me, I never aquired the taste for it.
I don't mind if others do, I actually enjoy the conversations with well-oiled folks. I just wish I had a tape recorder



Boasun said:


> Take Revenge?? You are putting it lightly. Two Stents, Missing discs in the neck, and all that other stuff, such as 5 broken bones at one time or another and then some.  But still in good shape & health but for the minor details.
> 
> But it sure was fun.... Misspent? Nah! Hard living? Yeah! 49 years of working the seas for a living. 21 years Navy the rest Commercial time. Complaints?? Well? Can't get hired as a motorcycle Cop. Imagine being able to ride down the Highway above a hundred MPH and not get a ticket... And I had the speeding tickets when I rode bikes.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'll drink in moderation while sailing. It usually averages to less than one per hour. I don't get drunk while sailing, and didn't even in my heavy drinking days.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A few things I'd point out. 

1) A majority of serious boating accidents and fatalities involve alcohol. 

2) Alcohol severely degrades your nightvision and your reaction time, even if it isn't enough to make you drunk. 

3) Alcohol also affects your judgement, and leaves you more susceptible to hypothermia and dehydration. 

4) Most states are cracking down on boating under the influence, and many have passed laws specifically regarding it.


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## CosmosMariner (Dec 21, 2006)

US Navy study showed 1 hour exposure to sun caused degradation in all skills equivalent to 1 oz alcohol. Combination of the two gets you drunk faster than you think.

We sail double handed so Captain and Admiral stay dry on watch. With a larger crew I'd ok the off watch to drink moderately but all have to be able to turn to at a moments notice. Aboard Wu-Hsin at anchor or dock Happy Hour is strictly observed daily but moderately. I don't remember alot of the '60s but intend to remember the 2000s!


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## dmurray (Aug 8, 2002)

Did this thread start as something like skippering and alcohol?

As a skipper (and instructor) I feel profound responsibilty for thsoe aboard. However, judgement is the key to any indulgence.

I spent two years of my life, before completing my post secondary education, in the merchant marine (35 years ago). I saw situations arising from a lack of judgement relating to alcohol and other inbfluenceswhich changed my view of the world. I'm surprised we never lost anyone.

What I learned was that I can't control those around me but I can use my own judgement to manage the risk they impose on me or others under my charge.

First, I don't make alcohol available to my crew while underway except on a passage and then only in moderate, rationed measure. A daily ration at sundown will not impair judgment or reaction particularly if my faculties are about me and I am on deck. It can in fact improve morale which is, in my view, an important priority when out of sight of land.

Secondly, my crew, as with all humans needs opportunities to indulge in some way. When docked or to a more limited degree, at anchor, they can indulge to the extent that (1) they accept responsibility for the consequences of their actions, (2) I can mitigate my liability (I am a member of the legal community). This implies obvious limits on what I will tollerate.

At all times, I maintain sobriety to the extent necessary to keep things under control.

When I crew for someone else, that's a different story. I feel only the need to be accountable for my own actions, including those that might impact on others...but that falls far short of saving others from their own lack of judgement. I would intervene to prevent a tragedy but it up to the skipper to proactively manage the situation and impose his/her style.

Clearly the risk at sea or even at anchor exceeds that of being ashore unless you are behind the wheel or at work at the conrols of heavy machinery.

My rant.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Sailboats seem to draw less attention than smokers, I have and will on occasion. trimmed the sails, set the auto pilot, turn on a nice sailing tune and made myself a cool one while the power boaters scream by blazing their tunes, creating a wake, flashing boobs and beer or other. 
i always will GROG because cuz I AM A PIRATE! made to bend the rules but never to keep safety out of mind. USCG can Kiss it while i'm in the middle of the pacific. I do not conform to what most people call normal society and never will... thats not freedom. freedom is doing whatever you want within reason, not doing what so called "normal society" believes is right. 

edit: sorry if i made anyone uncomfortable, but truth is truth


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Is it me or is a matter of getting un-young, in the older days I could party Thursday night get 4 hrs sleep and go to work, end of shift Friday down the pub with the boys then party on all night sleep in all day Saturday get a couple of hours sleep then on to a BBQ and get pissed again.

Today, if I have a big night the hangover the next day is unbearable with my head feeling like it’s going to explode (I now drink quality not quantity give me a good Irish whiskey any day


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

plumley1 said:


> A glass of wine at the end of a good day of sailing is my kind of drink.


I'll raise my mug of grog to that mate! 

*Any Alcoholic beverage while boating can make for a bitter cocktail. *


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think there's a time and place for everything. Busy Saturday afternoon on Lake Ontario, there's almost as much (boat) traffic as a four-lane highway, no drinking allowed ... lifejackets are encouraged. Sunny afternoon off the coast of Nova Scotia on the way to Shelbourne, nothing to see except the sea and the sky ... well a beer or two is almost obligatory ... back at the slip -well - guilty, but in a reasonably quiet and considerate way. Like to see everyone enjoying themselves but get really irritated when the Doral crowd insist on sharing their 70's Deep Purple.

Must admit that one of the reasons we chose our marina was the docks are solid - not floating, hence not as likely to send us into the drink if (when??) we were to imbibe unduly.


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## CosmosMariner (Dec 21, 2006)

> Today, if I have a big night the hangover the next day is unbearable with my head feeling like it's going to explode (I now drink quality not quantity give me a good Irish whiskey any day


I've never had a hangover but toxins must collect in muscle tissue because movement the morning after has occasionally been challanging and not without its own exquisite brand of pain.  For me it has been a long strange trip from San Miguel and Mateus to Oban, yes less is more (expensive).


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

Every vice has its price. Some pay upfront and some pay tomorrow. It's your choice. Those that have had to quit in order to live are the real source of knowledge. At least, they played and lost rather than stayed home with a bunch of dries. Generally, I find their remembrances rather uplifting in a way. Looking both ways crossing a street doesn't guarantee a long life, but it does give you better odds.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

tigerregis said:


> Every vice has its price. Some pay upfront and some pay tomorrow. It's your choice. *Those that have had to quit in order to live are the real source of knowledge.* At least, they played and lost rather than stayed home with a bunch of dries. Generally, I find their remembrances rather uplifting in a way. Looking both ways crossing a street doesn't guarantee a long life, but it does give you better odds.


Unfortunately, some of those that quit, did so only after killing a few innocent people... and in many cases did not receive anything close to a fitting punishment for the crime.


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

That Sir is a non sequitur.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Tiger-

How is that a non sequitur? Drunk drivers and boaters have often stopped doing such only after they have had an accident resulting in fatalities...some don't even stop then. Statistically, most drunk drivers arrested for the DUI are on their 21st drunken drive... the stats for boating are probably just as bad.

Alcohol and moving vehicles are generally a really bad idea.


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

Statistically, trying to have an adult discussion regarding adult pleasures is valid +or- 3.9%, 19 times out of 20. The rest of the time is attempting to convince children to say their prayers. You are correct about moving vehicles, but that is begging the question.


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## CosmosMariner (Dec 21, 2006)

I definately have to agree with SD on this one...stats in BOAT/US insurance mag 'Seaworthy' taken from Coast Guard and other marine sources still report a majority of boating deaths each year are alcohol related. And, most of those are power boats too. On sailboats alcohol is involved in falling overboard and falling into hard objects or being hit by someone traveling too fast who was under the influence.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

But there is a big difference between drinking and driving, and driving drunk.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Charlie—

When it comes to boating, the levels of alcohol that can affect the safety of operating a vessel are far lower than those that affect driving. Night vision is severely reduced by even traces of alcohol, as is peripheral vision. Reaction time is also affected, as it is in drunk driving cases. So is judgement. 

Also, most drinkers overestimate their ability to hold alcohol, and underestimate how severely impaired they are after drinking. I know this from first-hand experimentation that was done at several local bars during the development process of a drunk-driving prevention ignition interlock about ten years ago. Most of the people we tested were surprised at how quickly their hand-eye coordination degraded and by how much, compared to what they thought they were capable of handling.


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

It takes a gadfly to wake the werebeagle. After that "name" thread, I always have to chuckle at your handle.


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## bwalker42 (Jul 11, 2003)

Personally, I don't like to get drunk...


Here have some Rum


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

While I no longer choose to drink, I am unable to muster any enthusiasm at all for condemning those who do so. As der beagle alluded, there is quite a difference between drinking and drunk. I care little for the arguments of teetotalers who couch their desire for prohibition in the use of statistics.

Life is not a zero sum game. Statistics that show 50% of boating or driving accidents involved alcohol merely beg the question, what was the other 50%'s excuse? Driving and boating are not inherently safe practises, but then what is? The vast majority of men over 70 have prostate cancer, yet few die of it. Twisted out of context, that statistic, can be made to imply we have a crisis in prostate health, ignoring the fact that all men get it if they live long enough.

Limiting the discussion to limited access highways, a fetus has a greater chance of being killed while in the womb than either of it's parents do on the interstate. If one wishes to save lives, one might start there.

For the numbers of vehicles, and miles travelled, driving and boating are actually fairly safe practises. Probably safer than being a teenager, we've got 50 thousand of them commiting suicide each year. Responsible drinking is a minor threat, to the drinker and society, which, if you consider the number of people who do it should be obvious. Drunkeness is a moral, and for some, a physiological problem. It should not be encouraged or condoned.

In the typical media hysteria during the aftermath of the Exxon Valdez grounding it was somehow overlooked that the perfectly sober Third Mate, who had the conn and ran the ship aground, was an incompetent navigator. That, of course, does not relieve the Master of responsibility. I would venture to say that driving and boating competence are far greater factors in marine safety than alcohol consumption.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

CosmosMariner said:


> I've never had a hangover but toxins must collect in muscle tissue because movement the morning after has occasionally been challanging and not without its own exquisite brand of pain.  For me it has been a long strange trip from San Miguel and Mateus to Oban, yes less is more (expensive).


Nor I , it just seems that whenever I drink too much I seem to pick up a bit of a virus the next day. Symptoms include muscle pain, headaches, occasional nausea and dehydration. Totally coincidental of course, nothing to do with the alcohol.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Maybe it's a cultural thing but it seems that a lot of you lot equate drinking with automatic inebriation. For mine I find no problem in having a few drinks without getting falling down drunk. Sure there are times when I might have the odd one or two too many but not often these days. I drink cos I like it, I don't get drunk cos I don't like it.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> While I no longer choose to drink, I am unable to muster any enthusiasm at all for condemning those who do so. As der beagle alluded, there is quite a difference between drinking and drunk.


I agree completely that there is a significant difference between drinking and being drunk... there is also a significant difference between drinking responsibly and not doing so. Never said otherwise. As I generally choose not to drink, I don't mind playing "designated driver" for the friends of mine that do choose to imbibe. However, there are some who don't seem to see the problem that is caused by those who do not refrain from driving while intoxicated.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

tdw said:


> I drink cos I like it, I don't get drunk cos I don't like it.


hear here!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

tdw said:


> Maybe it's a cultural thing but it seems that a lot of you lot equate drinking with automatic inebriation. For mine I find no problem in having a few drinks without getting falling down drunk. Sure there are times when I might have the odd one or two too many but not often these days. I drink cos I like it, I don't get drunk cos I don't like it.


BTW, TDW- You don't have to be drunk to be badly impaired with respect to either driving a car or operating a boat.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> BTW, TDW- You don't have to be drunk to be badly impaired with respect to either driving a car or operating a boat.


SD,
I take your point but that's what I mean by not getting drunk. Once you have reached a point at which you should not be driving or skippering then you are drunk. Technically maybe not but in reality you are.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

tdw,
You have struck the point on the head. In the manner in which political causes are fought in these United States over simplification is the rule. Have a beer, have an accident, it's an alcohol related accident. Never mind the fact that a centipede couldn't have stayed upright on such an icy road. Did you know that if a drunk pedestrian is struck and killed by a vehicle it is tabulated with the DUI vehicle fatalities. The morality police in the US, mostly non-church goers, strongly believe that any alcohol is incapacitation. Moderation is foreign to them, and not just in consumption.


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## bwalker42 (Jul 11, 2003)

sailaway21 said:


> tdw,
> You have struck the point on the head. In the manner in which political causes are fought in these United States over simplification is the rule. Have a beer, have an accident, it's an alcohol related accident. Never mind the fact that a centipede couldn't have stayed upright on such an icy road. Did you know that if a drunk pedestrian is struck and killed by a vehicle it is tabulated with the DUI vehicle fatalities. The morality police in the US, mostly non-church goers, strongly believe that any alcohol is incapacitation. Moderation is foreign to them, and not just in consumption.


Sea Angel begins to pour smaller portions of Rum. Sorry guys..


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Angel

Some of us can handle our rum, so keep them coming.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Sea Angel,
I would believe that that would run counter to your notions of personal responsibility. The only reason I can see for you to start short-shoting your guests is the impending arrival of a thirsty wombat.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> Sea Angel,
> I would believe that that would run counter to your notions of personal responsibility. The only reason I can see for you to start short-shoting your guests is the impending arrival of a thirsty wombat.


Steady On !! I know my limits and know exactly when it's time to quit.










(thanks to whoever it was first posted this pic)


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## Driver (Mar 19, 2007)

*Cheers*

The only time I ever cracked open a cold one away from the dock was whilst we were waiting for SeaTow to arrive.

Overheard on our dock last summer:

Wellcraft owner: "Are you going out today?"
SeaRay owner: "Nah, I only have one beer left."

Are these guys using it for fuel or what? You can't leave the dock without beer?


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## anttay (Nov 5, 2005)

Excuse me if what I say has already been said. 

You should not place yourself, your crew or others in any danger. A couple of beers in calm conditions, in situations where you are not at close quarters, and/or at anchor seems OK - but you must be capable of safely leaving an anchorage at night in an emergency. Keep the crew sober enough that you do not have an MOB situation. The responsibility, as skipper, is yours.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think above all that as the skipper of a boat you are responsible for your crew. While I refuse to drink or even smoke dope on my boat while there are people on board, I do let my crew or guests have some if they desire. Never have I had any guest or crew "[email protected] faced" while sailing, though they may have been a little happy.

I am even weary of drinking at anchor with guests, unless you are absolutely sure with weather incoming that night. I may have one or even two to kill the worms, but that's it. I am unsure of the rules regarding anchoring and drinking because technically you are still free floating and in control of your vessel.

I say this because after one occasion of getting blasted and stoned while at anchor with good company (in my younger days of course), we had tugboats moving logs around us between 10pm and 3 in the morning! Had I known they would come in, I would not have anchored in that little bay. Furthermore, had I been required to move my boat, I most certainly would have made a balls up of it. Also, if you are at anchor and a storm comes in, even on a calm night, I have been glad to be in good sound mind to make sure other boats were not going to bang mine and that my anchor was well laid etc etc. You never know, you may have to take emergency measures or help someone even while you are at anchor.

Nuff said, when other people come on my boat I am especially more sober and unwilling to drink. Their life is in my hands.


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## locrian13 (Feb 5, 2002)

*from the Department of Redundancy Department*

I don't drink while I'm sailing.

1. I don't weigh all that much, so it doesn't take much.

2. Many times it's just me and my husband on the boat. We can't afford to have half of our crew impaired.

3. Drunky drunky + waves = sicky sicky (no fun)

4. I'm at the helm a lot. Drunky drunky + helm = course? what course?

5. I'm a funny drunk. Sometimes you have to just shut up and sail.

My husband will have a couple of beers if it's nice out, but never more than he would have if we were out and he were driving.


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

Valiente. You started it; isn't it time for last call?


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## Artwerke (Nov 25, 2005)

I may have a beer,possibly 2 if it's a long day, hard to beleve or even remember 30 yrs ago when I could polish off a case ,when at the beach for a day. Art.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Artwerke said:


> I may have a beer,possibly 2 if it's a long day, hard to beleve or even remember 30 yrs ago when I could polish off a case ,when at the beach for a day. Art.


Even if I didn't before, this thread could drive me to drink.

Ding Ding. Here's your bell Valiente.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think the horse is officially dead.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

The one series of items you don't want on board are drugs. USCG suspects that the stuff is on board they will do a sniffer search and if that is positive, it is bye bye boat. Your boat will be confiscated. It doesn't matter if it is only a MJ seed or a speckle of coke. Bye bye boat. I doesn't matter if one of your guests brought the stuff on board. Bye bye boat. And then the court costs. and if you do get your boat back, there are the moorage and security fees. Security fees are about $35 per hour while it is in custody.

So word of warning (as if it necessary after reading the above) Don't have drugs on board in US waters.


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## sharkbait (Jun 3, 2003)

1


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

RickBowman said:


> I'll raise my mug of grog to that mate!
> 
> *Any Alcoholic beverage while boating can make for a bitter cocktail. *


Mythbusters tried to duplicate the results of this photo crashing a hull into a pole are higher and higher speeds. In every case the bow of the boat deflected off the pole and they could not duplicate the damage in this picture. Their analysis was the photo was a fake.

As for drinking and skippering, I will take on a beer or three while under sail in fair weather. I'm a big boy and know my limitations and trust myself to stay within them. I can say I've never had a buzz while sailing, but like someone else posted, a cold beer on a hot day while the boat moves along undersail is one of lifes great pleasures.


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

While underway... maybe one drink.


While on the hook... maybe a couple. Especially with dinner.

As was said before: "moderation"

As the skipper though, i am very aware of my responsibilities. The last thing i want to happen is having some emergency and not being able to handle it. We practice MOB recovery every other trip on the water... one day it will be real and not just the empty life jacket we toss over.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Those Mythbuster are two complete idiots with absolutely no Engineering background, and to make things even worse, the idiots making the boat split were the "apprentices" and the bimbo with the large breats, not the "masters of ingenuity"....

I saw that episode and still believe its a great show for the kids and for people with common belief in TV and weak engineering backgrounds.

The conditions at which they tried to simulate the bow opening were idiotic to say the least.

They threw a boat, on a boat trailer, at a pole, from far away, and in all of the sequences they never got the pole in the midle of the bow, but a few feet to the side. If you hit it spot on, it will split....the trailer can't duplicate the resistance caused by water, and the position it stands on the trailer is not thatone of a speeding boat in the water....there is more....

Then in the end, frustrated at their own stupidity, the "apprentices" just dropped the boat from a crane...which in my opinion is just stupid.

That show is just a show, and of all people in the World, those "sharp knifes" are for sure the last resource I would use to confirm a theory...a fun show, and her boobs are nice....

I hate that idiotic moron with the carrot hair...the little midget with the funny moustache and the French Berret is OK.....should wash his shirt though.....

She has nice boobs...


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

I LOVE getting really really drunk while my 6 year old and 8 year old sail the boat on the open ocean. I go below, especially if the seas get a little scary, and get potted (don't like being on deck and looking at all those huge waves -- yikes!). Meanwhile the little ones get some experience sailing in heavy weather. It's a win-win situation for everyone. I get to have long conversations with my dead mother, while the kids learn how to control their fear.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> They threw a boat, on a boat trailer, at a pole, from far away, and in all of the sequences they never got the pole in the midle of the bow, but a few feet to the side. If you hit it spot on, it will split....the trailer can't duplicate the resistance caused by water, and the position it stands on the trailer is not thatone of a speeding boat in the water....there is more....
> ..


The boat in the photo didn't center punch the pole. It is split down the side.

Whatever the size of the apprentices boobs, the boat was run into a pole at 60 MPH, striking right where the pole is embedded in photo and the boat bounced off. It doesn't take an engineering degree to figure out a curved shape like the bow of a motor boat is highly likely to deflect of a blow like striking a pole. That is why the armor on tanks is sloped -- to deflect the energy of an object striking it. Whatever thier background or qualifications they duplicated the apparent circumstances of the photo and got a different result. But you go right ahead believing everything you see on the internet.


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## LaPlaya (Jun 12, 2007)

Not adverse to a couple of cool ones while underway when the conditions are right. When the hook is set the couple from earlier call out for some company.
AL


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

midlifesailor said:


> But you go right ahead believing everything you see on the internet.


Maybe take a look at this quote from the September 18, 2000 Baltimore Sun

And these photos from the _The Mariner_, September 22, 2000, p.11

I side with Giu on pretty much everything he says. He is so handsome a man a owns the world's 'Phattest' boat, how could he be wrong?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

midlifesailor said:


> But you go right ahead believing everything you see on the internet.


Midlife...I was not saying the photo was true or not (which the previous post proved it was), I was simply stating that of all people to break a Myth, the idiots in that show, are in the end of my list...and that their failure at the (I must insist), obvious, was a disaster, because they for one did not have the same boat, the boat was on a trailer and....oh well...


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## STARWINDY (Apr 20, 2007)

Yes. but she did have nice boobs.


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## scolil (Mar 9, 2007)

I must side with Giu on this one. Regardless of what the internet says, physics says that the forces and motion on a boat are different when it is on the water from when it is on the trailer. 

Going back to the subject of this thread, over the weekend I was sailing on a small lake in a very small boat (hobie 14). There was a ski boat on the same lake and it was fascinating to see how many times they were stopped at the shore next to the latrines. I have never been one for alcohol, but I found this scenario amusing.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

15 minutes before we drop the hook the swoosh of that beer opening sure sounds good!...okay 30 mins


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

When I was crewing some 25-odd years ago, we tended to have beers open while under way (tho not while racing). But we weren't slamming them down. Out of a crew of four (usually), most of a 12-pack would remain after a few hours sailing. And we had "boat pretzels" we were munching at the same time. We were out there to sail, not to get drunk and run into things. I would be surprised if anybody ever even caught a slight buzz. I know I never did.

I think that when we get our boat, there'll be beer on board. I think it'll be light beer. (Which I don't regard as really being beer.) I think that if conditions warrant it: Yeah, I'll pop one open while under way. But the kind of conditions that would warrant it would be relatively light air, relatively calm seas, not much in the way of other traffic in my vicinity, and daylight.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Midlife...I was not saying the photo was true or not (which the previous post proved it was), I was simply stating that of all people to break a Myth, the idiots in that show, are in the end of my list...and that their failure at the (I must insist), obvious, was a disaster, because they for one did not have the same boat, the boat was on a trailer and....oh well...


OK, so I'm a AFOC and I'm now on the way to the store to buy a Tilly hat so I can eat it.

They must have turned hard into the marker. It's the only way I can see hitting the pole at an angle that would not deflect the boat away from the pole.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

We have one good friend who does a fair amount of beer drinking when on board. Although I have never seen him do something bad or dangerous because of it, we are mindful that it is happening. Mostly we do not drink at all when underway. On an occassion I have seen Skip pop one open when he hands the helm over to me. I am such a light weight now, one beer would make me drunk so I prefer not to bother, expecially when underway.
One day, we were taking MISTRESS over to the river and we had very light air. The large Queen Fisherman was pulled out and made ready to set. It was up to the friend to guide the Queen through for a tack. I at the helm was given instructions to tack, so I did. The Captain did not see that our friend was being wrapped up in the Queen like a mummy. Later, we laughed at the vision of our friend being completely mummafied by the Queen with just a hand sticking out holding a beer. (He did not have a beer in his hand at the time, we just had fun with him about what had happened).
We always return to port with the same amount of sailors, but if you drink you may be incased by the Queen when you arrive. 
Kathleen
aboard
Schooner MISTRESS


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## kptmorgan04 (Apr 10, 2007)

so I read through the first few pages and was a little surprised by lack of beverage drinking. Maybe its that I am younger than most on here. I keep it between 1-3 beers per day while underway, while at anchor keep it to 1-2, but while at the dock or a mooring unless it is a very early sail the next day, I will enjoy myself on the boat. After docking or ending a passage I always have a little celebration beer


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

kptmorgan-

Given that a majority of fatalities are from MOB incidents, and a majority of those are alcohol related... it really isn't that great an idea to be drinking and boating... especially if you are underway. It also takes very little alcohol, certainly not enough to get most people drunk, to seriously adversely affect your reaction time and night vision. If you've been drinking at all, and are boating at night, you're probably going to endup a statistic at some point.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

It was interesting to read the responses to this topic. For some reason I thought more people would say that they drink. I guess the reason I thought that is because I hardly ever have dinner with other people that they aren't opening a bottle of wine or something to drink with it. I have never had a drink of alcohol so I don't know anything about it, it just wasn't something I was interested in. But most people I know drink alcohol and I had assumed they would probably do that while boating too.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*News Flash Caribbean*

I'm based in the Virgin Islands, (British) and have sailed the EC with people from all over the world. They don't seem to be representin' on this thread. I believe that if you took a cross section of the people who sail here, the overall tone of this thread would be the exact opposite of what it is.

In my experience, pretty much every man jack on the boat drinks at least a beer or three in the course of an afternoon.

In a fun race, I wouldn't get crew without a well stocked cooler.

Then again, if your'e in a serious race, or doing delivery, where you could do damage to another persons vessel, there isn't a drop on board. Kinda all or nothing.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I do think that there's a lot of extremest view posted here. When someone states that they might have a beer or three in the course of a day, they get a reply reminding them that you don't have to be legally drunk to be have impaired reaction time and night vision, disregarding the fact that even one beer an hour, which is more than most posting positive about drinking, would result in no noticeable impairment in most adults.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

How the hell are we supposed to drink "responsibly" when just a few make you anything but? This is all such a crock of crap. Booze destroys more lives than any known disease yearly. Proabition was on the right track...a major catch 22 syndrom...


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## Jotun (May 4, 2006)

Each to his own....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

...buzz off you hoser....God forgive them, for they know not what they do...


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## HIPAR (Sep 8, 2006)

Arrr ... That we're now all in lockstep, it's time to Splice the Mainbrace.

--- CaptChas


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

...hoist the main'sl maties...heave yee guts out....arrrrgh


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

As captain of my boat I remain stone sober. I guess i"m boring. But the habit of not drinking while driving or boating comes from my early days spent as an emt,saw a lot of bad stuff. It is ok for crew and guest to have a few.

Dennis


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

USCGRET1990 said:


> How the hell are we supposed to drink "responsibly" when just a few make you anything but?


That would depend on the time frame for that few. Done in a 30 minute, or even hour, I'd agree. Done in a four hour sail is a whole different matter.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

While I no longer choose to drink I do not find it necessary to impose that stricture on others. I see nothing wrong with drinking and I see nothing wrong with drinking and driving or drinking and boating. How can I say that? Well, I have all of the evidence on my side, is how.

A majority, perhaps even the vast majority, of adults have drank acohol and then driven an automobile. Considering that the place they probably had the alcohol was a restaurant or bar, the decision to drive was made before they had the drink. If the same individual decided to go ashore, have dinner and drinks, and return to his boat only to find the wind was up, should he stay on shore, because he has been drinking, or go tend to his anchor?

The fact that most people have engaged in drinking and driving, or boating, safely will always trump whatever nonsense is bandied about dealing with the dangers therein. The simple fact is that most people drink, and boat, responsibly, whether alcohol is involved or not, and baloney about just one drink impairing them is counterintuitive to their very own experience. The argument holds no more water than grandma's warning that you'll go blind if you keep pulling on that thing. The same is true of such things as speed limits. The vast majority of people speed on occasion, trusting their own judgement over the sign posted on the side of the road. Unrealisticly low speed limits give people cause to question all speed limit's validity. Perhaps resulting in the undesirable occurences of people speeding through construction zones. When the law is an ass people laugh and ignore it as much as possible.

Americans often seem to see things in a strictly black and white manner, which they rarely are. We also have an affliction that presents itself as, "there outta be a law". Demonstrably, we have enough laws, most of which are not enforced or needed. Much better to have societal condemnation of a behavior than pass a law which is overly restrictive. Rather than passing laws, perhaps we should focus more on teaching our progeny how to drink responsibly. Many other nations have no alcohol laws and yet have little problem with alcohol and driving or boating. As with all things, moderation is the key.

The self-righteous, many of them left-wingers, wish to use the law to eliminate their personal buga-boos, ignoring the infringement on the rights of the majority of Americans. They trot out a bunch of statistics, meaningless in and of themselves without proper analysis, and use those to bolster their arguments. They always end up with, "if we can save one life" as their punch line. Well, the nature of life is such that we cannot save just one life, even with the full might of the government behind us. The idiocy of their statistical analysis is such that, in America today, you are safer on an interstate highway than you are in the womb. You could look it up. We have 30,000 teenagers committing suicide each year and we cannot save just one of their lives. It's unfortunate, but that's life. But what we do not do is, extrapolate one person's tragedy into a stricture on society as a whole. That is fanaticism.

Alcohol, taken in moderation, has long been acknowledged as having a salutory effect on man. The fact that there are dangers involved in it's use, specifically over-consumption, does not make it an undesirable substance to consume. Attempts to make life inherently safe are doomed to failure and justifiably ridiculed.

Drink or don't drink. If you do drink, do so in moderation for your own sake, at least. If you choose not to drink, I congratulate you on your decision and hope you do not think that that decision should be required of your fellow citizen. Try to remember that we are Americans and that the majority of our rights are vested in we the people and not some nanny state. I think that's wriiten down somewhere.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> While I no longer choose to drink I do not find it necessary to impose that stricture on others. I see nothing wrong with drinking and I see nothing wrong with drinking and driving or drinking and boating. How can I say that? Well, I have all of the evidence on my side, is how.
> 
> A majority, perhaps even the vast majority, of adults have drank acohol and then driven an automobile. Considering that the place they probably had the alcohol was a restaurant or bar, the decision to drive was made before they had the drink. If the same individual decided to go ashore, have dinner and drinks, and return to his boat only to find the wind was up, should he stay on shore, because he has been drinking, or go tend to his anchor?
> 
> The fact that most people have engaged in drinking and driving, or boating, safely will always trump whatever nonsense is bandied about dealing with the dangers therein. The simple fact is that most people drink, and boat, responsibly, whether alcohol is involved or not, and baloney about just one drink impairing them is counterintuitive to their very own experience. The argument holds no more water than grandma's warning that you'll go blind if you keep pulling on that thing. The same is true of such things as speed limits. The vast majority of people speed on occasion, trusting their own judgement over the sign posted on the side of the road. Unrealisticly low speed limits give people cause to question all speed limit's validity. Perhaps resulting in the undesirable occurences of people speeding through construction zones. When the law is an ass people laugh and ignore it as much as possible.


Only one little problem with your outlook on this.... *those same drunk people kill other people, who did not agree to share the road or waterways with the drunken idiot. *Often, the drunk is not seriously injured in such an accident. Your ignorance is abysmal and it is either ignorance or sheer stupidity speaking and I prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt. As the surviving victim of a drunken driver, and having lost a sibling to that same drunken driver, I am speaking from a point of view you don't seem to be able to understand. *This happened almost 20 years ago, and the drunk got 90 days suspended as his sentence for killing someone-he might have thought twice about it if the law had had any teeth to it back then. *

Your right to drive drunk ends where other people are using the same road or waterways as you are-just as your right to swing a fist ends at a person's face.

Yes, I agree that we need to deal with drunken driving and alcoholism as a society, but until such time as that works effectively, draconian drunk driving laws, especially those mandating the use of ignition interlocks are probably the only real effective solution.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

SD

I am sorry for your loss, and I have some perspective for your reactions to these posts, but you are still substituting drunk in your replies when someone else mentions having a drink in their post. I don't think anyone here ever stated that is is OK to boat or drive drunk, but that having a drink while underway is an entirely different thing, as is having a drink at a restaurant or bar then driving home. That is not operating drunk.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I am aware of the difference between being drunk and having a drink... *but many people, especially ones who have been drinking, can have a very difficult time determining the point at which that line is crossed. 
* 
Making people responsible for their actions, including their choice to drink and operate a vehicle, be it a car or boat, while impaired is the issue.

Also, I see a very large difference between sitting down at a restaurant, having a beer or a glass of wine with dinner and then getting in the car to go home and drinking on a boat... which is a vehicle... a more apt analogy would be sitting in a car on the side of the road and drinking a six-pack while sitting behind the wheel.

The effect of the alcohol in the first situation is probably not going to affect most people, due to the food helping block absorption of alcohol and the time that passes and allows the body to metabolize it.

In the second situation, the amount of time that often passes is negligible, and in fact, I can't tell you how many times I've seen boaters drinking a beer while "driving" a boat going 20 knots through a no-wake zone. Generally, there is also little food to help block the absorption of alcohol... those two factors combine to make it much worse than what you are describing.

I have no problem with people drinking responsibly, and understanding their limits and not operating a vehicle when those limits have been passed. I often go "bar-hopping" with friends, and am often asked to be designated driver if the need should arise. *I do have a problem with people advocating a situation that is highly likely to lead to a person operating a vehicle when it is likely that they have passed the point where they are no longer capable of operating the vessel safely-endangering themselves and others nearby.
* 
I am also against the idea that we don't need laws to prevent drunk driving. While other countries don't have the problems with it that we do, it is because those countries treat drinking very differently than does the US. In most countries, teenagers can drink legally, but it is very difficult for them to get their driver's license or get access to a motor vehicle. In the US, a person can start legally driving at age 15 in some states. In most states, they can get their driver's license before age 17. Yet, they aren't legally allowed to drink until they are 21.

IMHO, this sets them up for a serious problem. Having only a little driving experience by the time they can legally drink, and no experience with alcohol, they don't realize how much the alcohol impairs them. It would make far more sense to make the drinking age 16, and the driving age 21... then they would be far more likely to understand how alcohol affects their coordination and judgement, and as "new" drivers, they'd be even more cautious about driving with any impairment. This is probably why drunk driving is far more common in this country, as well as alcoholism, than it is in many other countries.

As for alcoholism, many young adults get their first serious exposure to alcohol when they are in college. This is away from "adult" supervision of their parents, and having been denied it, they often will binge drink. Binge drinking leads to alcoholism more than non-binge drinking IIRC. Again, if they reversed the driving and drinking age limits, this would allow parents to have a bit more control over the attitudes and experiences towards alcohol, which would probably be a bit more responsible than a group of frat boys are ever likely to be.... and would probably result in a lower percentage of alcoholics.


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## CalypsoP35 (Jul 24, 2006)

*Drink, drank, drunk???*

Saturday I left my mooring at noon for a 4 hour sail to Martha's Vineyard with my 12 and 14 year old daughters both of whom can sail my boat. It was a glorious day, bright sunshine with a few clouds, 10 to 15 kt winds which would stay just forward of beam for the entire trip as forecasted. We powered out of our bay which takes about 1/2 hr until we raise our sails. A little after the sails went up and the engine was turned off we broke open the sandwiches. I had a beer with my sandwich which probably took me a full hour to consume. Yes, the last few sips were warm, but a decent beer can still taste good without being cold. (There are people who do not drink that cannot comprehend this concept.)

I thoroughly enjoyed that beer, the freedom of being out on the water with my daughters enjoying a wonderful sail. Some people would have seen me drinking beer for an hour and presumed I was getting drunk. Some people would say I was irresponsible for drinking while boating. Some people would even say I was irresponsible for drinking in front of my daughters. Typically, these are people that either can't drink themselves without getting drunk, or just don't enjoy the drinking of an alcholic beverage, so they assume the only reason people drink is to get drunk.

On days I have more experienced crew, or no crew at all, I might have two or three beers (along with some water) during the course of a 4 to 5 five hour sail, with the last beer usually being at the mooring after my return while I'm watching the sunset.

Some people would like to take this simple pleasure away from me. It's like when you were kids and one person did something bad in class and the whole class was punished. I'm sick and tired of having all responsible individuals pay for the sins of a few. If you are drunk you should not be operating a moving vehicle and there should be laws to this effect. However, having an open alcoholic beverage in your boat does not make you a drunk boater.

One of the great pleasures of sailing is that when you are on your boat you have a sense of freedom. As the captain you have the responsibility for your vessel and the people on board, but you also have the freedom to assess your situation and make your own decisions. Obviously you are still subject to the laws of the jurisdiction you are in, and we do need some laws, but IMHO we already have too many laws that limit our freedom.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'm with Calypso. Well... partially. I'm not in complete agreement that we have too many "freedom-limiting" laws; I believe we need to define reasonable limits on those freedoms by way of laws so as to protect the ability of everyone else to enjoy their freedoms, too. But this is a drinking and boating thread, not a polemic on jurisprudence, so...

I enjoy having a glass or two on an afternoon sail. What people might infer from my holding both a glass and the tiller (not in the same hand) is of negligible concern to me. I am sailing to enjoy myself.


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## CalypsoP35 (Jul 24, 2006)

Hyperion said:


> I'm with Calypso. Well... partially. I'm not in complete agreement that we have too many "freedom-limiting" laws.


I bet if you really thought about it, you could find at least one law that you feel impinges on your ability to do something you think you should be allowed to do.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

At the risk of officially making this a thread on jurisprudence, I can quickly think of several laws which limit my ability to do things I believe I should be allowed to do. You're right. But I also recognize the necessity of balancing those things which I should be allowed to do (I believe our speed limits, to use a facile example, are heinously outdated) with the implications of extending the same right to everyone.

You and I responsibly enjoy some drinks while sailing. But I recognize the need to prohibit this activity because certainly not everyone would responsibly enjoy the freedom, and that would inevitably impinge upon the freedoms of the boat they crashed into.

And while I knowingly break this law, if I were caught I would have to accept that my punishment would be just. Like Socrates drinking hemlock.


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## CalypsoP35 (Jul 24, 2006)

H,

Your missing and making my point at the same time. I agree there are a laws which every civilized society must have in place to protect people from each other. Including drunk driving and boating laws (emphasis on drunk). My only complaint is that IMHO government sometimes goes too far. Two of my pet peeves are having to register my dinghy when I put a 2 HP motor on it, and making it illegal to drive while using a cellphone. Next thing you know it will be illegal for the driver to talk to the person sitting next to them because that will distract them from driving. The only point I was trying to make is that I would bet that just about everyone can think of one law they disagree with.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Dog's point is heart-felt. That does not make it a basis for setting policy. We end up hunting flies with a shotgun. As in driving, it is difficult to judge from afar whether the operator is drunk or just a lousy operator. Not sure of the solution for either, but I'm pretty sure that it is not with law enforcement. We've tried the punitive route, to little effect. The problems persist. As stated, societal approbation is the only long term route to changing culture. Ironically, I suspect that, in most areas of life, the Dog would be against me imposing my beliefs and morality upon him. And yet, that is just what I propose as the solution to excessive drinking, as well as a method of compelling responsible boating. Think of it as peer pressure with consequences!

The law is an ass. No one goes out much on New Year's Eve anymore, unless within the big city. Why? Fear of an initial DUI charge. Guess what? Law enforcement, in my area, has no more patrol units or heightened sensitivity towards DUI than any other night of the year. No double-manning of the cars, no extra cars, no check-points. why? Because New Year's eve is not a problem, actually never was a problem, and law enforcement sees no need for a bunch of cops sitting around with nothing to do. Memorial Day and 4th of July are very much different. Well. I remember all of the scare ads about New Years. I remember all the check-points, etc... Now New Years eve is gone. a tradition of joy with family, friends, and loved ones in general is basically wiped out-for what? We're a great people for causes, often enlisting in them without considering the long term repercussions of our actions. Doubt my words? Check with your local restauranteer. On NYE their closed up and gone by 12:30, if not sooner. It used to be one of their biggest nights, along with Valentine's Day. But somebody got a hair cross-ways about all that drunkeness and said, "there oughta be a law" or some such foolishness, and another of your liberties was chiseled away. For a problem that wasn't that big of a problem.

Now, there is a perception that drinking is a problem in the boating community. Prove it. Don't bother with accident statistics. Those are the "planes that didn't land safely". We have little cognizence of the number of planes that flew and landed without incident, nor do we have even the foggiest notion of the number of boats operated safely, with or without alcohol. We 'perceive" a problem. Perceptions lead us to believe David Copperfield is actually sawing that woman in the box in two. Perceptions are not always reality. And what skews perceptions? Well, for one thing, when we start out having a discussion on drinking and boating-do you or don't you-and it turns in to a discussion of the evils of demon alcohol and the "problem". If you say it often enough, you'll convince a lot of people there is a problem. Me, I don't know. Given that we don't have the slightest clue as to how many boats are being operated at any given moment, with or without alcohol, i am inclined to be highly skeptical. I will not cede there is a problem until i see much more evidence of a non-anecdotal nature.

The whole thing smacks of a morality play by the PC socially righteous. Count me out.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Sway,
Your points are all valid but all that has happened in the land of OZ since the booze laws were introduced is that we catch more taxis, buses and trains. I also find that we tend to stay in our own small home areas than travel across the city. 

In general I do find it interesting that their does appear to be less binge drinking in places that have what I would consider an adult attitude to alcohol. The dreaded Europe is a case in point. In places like Portugal, Spain, Italy etc where drinking is just a normal part of life (particularly wine with meals) I see less public displays of drunkedness than I do in , say, Australia and the US. Of interest here I notice how young people, ofen young women, seem to consider it all well and good to spend an evening drinking shots until they either end up face down in the gutter or legs up in the back seat of some plonkers motor. Not a good look.


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## canadianseamonkey (Sep 4, 2006)

There's nothing like sailing and having a Corona in one hand. I would sense this is being responsible. What I question is this: once anchored for the night, the crew and captain get drunk and pass out. Isn't this more of a threat to the crew's safety and the other boats anchored around you? If a storm picks up or the winds change there is no way the crew would hear it and be able to re-anchor if the need arises. Legally, nobody on board can start the engine or face a DUI charge. The law has room for improvement in many cases as does the act of being responsible.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

canadianseamonkey said:


> There's nothing like sailing and having a Corona in one hand. I would sense this is being responsible. What I question is this: once anchored for the night, the crew and captain get drunk and pass out. Isn't this more of a threat to the crew's safety and the other boats anchored around you? If a storm picks up or the winds change there is no way the crew would hear it and be able to re-anchor if the need arises. Legally, nobody on board can start the engine or face a DUI charge. The law has room for improvement in many cases as does the act of being responsible.


This is a threat to the crew's safety, but also to those of the other boats around you. If the boat were to drag, and couldn't reset the anchor due to the crew and captain being in drunken stupor...the captain could be liable for any damage caused by his boat dragging.


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## canadianseamonkey (Sep 4, 2006)

I agree with you 100%, but how can the captain be charged? There is no law about being drunk on a boat when anchored. He can't start the engine, because then he would be charged for operating a vehicle under the influence. I've seen boat anchored with their cockpit floors filled with empty glasses and beer bottles and I could only shake my head and wonder what these people would do if a crisis arose. 

So to go back to the original question of this thread, is it so bad to have a drink while under sail? who is being more responsible? and doesn't this law have a huge void? Something to think about next time you're anchored next to a drunken idiot.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Though I've never had the chance yet, I think there is nothing wrong with a pint with yer lunch as long as that's the rule. I don't like being dull of wit with I'm responsible for something like a boat or car. So when it comes to moving while drinking, I would stick to the one with lunch or none at all.

I don't like to drink to excess either so afterward, though I don't mind a couple of snorts of whiskey and a pint or two I would always want to remain sharp enough to handle a situation should one arise at anytime on board.

I've always thought that part of the problem is that no one really teaches their kids how to drink responsibly. They get to legal age then then go wild until they find their limit or become an alcoholic or quit altogether. Doesn't seem the right way to do things to me.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

canadianseamonkey said:


> I agree with you 100%, but how can the captain be charged? There is no law about being drunk on a boat when anchored. He can't start the engine, because then he would be charged for operating a vehicle under the influence. I've seen boat anchored with their cockpit floors filled with empty glasses and beer bottles and I could only shake my head and wonder what these people would do if a crisis arose.


IIRC, the captain can be charged for gross negligence. AFAIK, regardless of whether his vessel is anchored or underway, he is responsible for it. If it starts to drag, he is responsible for making it fast to the bottom again-ie resetting the anchor-or getting it underway and under control before it does any damage to nearby property.



> So to go back to the original question of this thread, is it so bad to have a drink while under sail? who is being more responsible? and doesn't this law have a huge void? Something to think about next time you're anchored next to a drunken idiot.


Personally, I have no issue with a person having a drink while underway-provided they are doing so responsibly. One beer on most of the boaters I see, who are in the near 200 lbs. size range, isn't going to affect them enough to be a danger. I do object to the boaters that have six or seven beers with dinner, and then decide that they're still okay to operate the boat-even though they are fairly clearly affected.

As several others have pointed out, there is a significant difference between drinking responsibly and being drunk.


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