# Boat Looted in Haiti



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Here's a scary story...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Very scary Cam... Moral of that story... don't sail of the coast of Haiti if you can avoid it.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Haiti is really taking to capitalism!!! Think of it as a grassroots impromptu salvage operation with native tools.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

It was all of that positive French influence on the island. I think we should give them Nukes so that we dont have any more problems from them.

Those poor people are so poor and barely surviving. I am not making ammends, and I would not sail there in todays climate, but did you know Haiti and DR were once considered the most beautiful islands in the gulf?? Now it is a desolate waste of missmanagement, poor government, and some bad luck.

Although, I have heard you can get some really cheap fares right now to Haiti. It is the plane coming back that is expensive!!

- CD

(Sorry, had to throw a little humor on that).


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

An interesting bit of reading with nothing but sad endings, for anyone that is interested. From the very beginning (well, since the landing of Columbus), that poor island has known nothing but war and pain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Haiti


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Although, I have heard you can get some really cheap fares right now to Haiti. It is the plane coming back that is expensive!!
> 
> - CD
> 
> (Sorry, had to throw a little humor on that).


Rumor has it you can get some killer deals on boat parts also!!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

You have to wonder, if you know much about their history, if Haiti/Hispanola is an island that can ever recover and find peace with itself. Its history is nothing but atrocities and murder and blood, and acts of cruelty that are unimaginable.

I feel terribly for those people. I don't think that island has ever know prosperity and peace at the same time. The argument could be made that they have NEVER known peace. And the US is often criticized for its use of slaves... look back at the French and what they did.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

I know that having a weapon presents it own special problems, and we can all "feel sorry for those people" but I still maintain as far as firearms are concerned it is better to have one and not need it as opposed to need it and not have it. I would be prepared to possibly part with my boat but if I felt my life was in danger and/or my family and I could articulate that fact then there would have been some fewer people alive on the earth. From a cops point of view it is better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6. Being poor is no excuse for what they did, not an iota. Yes the US used slaves but Africa did it before we did. I never used slaves, my parents did not and neither did my grandparents so that argument is nul and void. I know this subject has been talked about more then once already.

Jerry


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Being poor ISSSS no excuse. I hope you undersatnd I am not making ammends for them... not one single little bit. But also realize that they are not just poor: They are starving with little to no chance to make any type of a life for themselves or their families in any way that is morraly acceptable in todays civilization. Their only hope is that a "rich" American on his yacht will show up one day and cary them away. And unto that, I have no good comment.

- CD

PS No excuse. No excuse at all.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

At least they lived to tell the tale. Lotta places in this world, some of them ya just best avoid. Poverty no excuse, neither is stupidity.

Dang! Wish I was that smart ALL the time.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

"After Aristide was removed by a military coup in 1991, President Bill Clinton in 1994 sent 20,000 U.S. troops to Haiti to restore to power this former Roman Catholic Priest and advocate for Leftist Liberation Theology who once called Cuban Marxist dictator Fidel Castro his "greatest personal hero."

I seem to remember that Clinton had "solved" all the problems there, guess my memory is going bad.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

I have to wonder if they hoped to be carried away after the yacht broke up or it was looted. There is NO consolation being killed by a poor person either. Dead is dead and there are no second place winners.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

It sure makes a case for being able to defend yourself.....


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

To the owner of the boat, those were moments of desperation and fear (they shouldn't have lived them and the whole thing is wrong)....but they were moments...for the pople in Haiti, its not moments...ITS THEIR LIFE 24/7.....

So, its easy for them in great suffering, to minimize the suffering of someone that, in their minds, is at sea for FUN......

In starvation we don't reason well....have you passed starvation yet????


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Well, if your're breaking up on a reef and going down anyway, why begrudge someone else the opportunity to make a buck. Personally I go packin' but would rather not explain to the judge why I blew someone's head off over something destined for the deep six anyway. Bob will fight for his life only, the rest can be replaced.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

Giulietta, tell me that starvation is a suitable reason to kill someone.

Cockeyedbob, I see your point and I said I would have only used deadly force if I felt me or my families life was in mortal danger and there was no other way out. "Once ashore they were forcibly marched to a house". I was not there so I cannot say for sure but I can see possibly right about there I would have defended us with deadly force.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

jerryrlitton said:


> Giulietta, tell me that starvation is a suitable reason to kill someone.


Of course it is not..but I woke up this morning, had eggs and ham for breakfast, some delicious Mahi-Mahi for lunch and will have a good Conch stew for dinner....my kids are enjoying warm sea water by a Hotel......I woulnd't kill anyone now, no Sir. You're absolutely right there.....

Now....if I had to kill you, so that I wouldn't see my 2 sons die of starvation....yes I would.....and so would you.....believe me don't tell me you wouldn't.....

Besides, they didn't kill anyone, did they? I was just saying, in my post, that in the thieve's minds...the suffering that the sailboat people endured was not wrong...in their minds...not mine...not yours.....

Starvation.....I've seen it, for real.....have you???? I doubt it.....

Please note that I AM NOT saying what they did is right, it is not...I just say, that I understand what they did, from their prespective...

Look, I go to New York city a lot..do I dare going to the Bronx???? NO I DONT. I stay away from it....

And you would start shooting if you were in their shoes, huh??? I doubt that, too.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Well, I suppose if you're a couple of Brits wrecked off a strange shore and a bunch of skinny french speaking swarthy folks boarded and commenced with a salvage operation, you might get a tad upset and your perspective might be a bit tainted. A wee bit of embellishment of the facts me thinks.

We all project ourselves into that scenario and ask what if, but until we are actually there, it's just a crapshoot as to how we'll actually react.

Me? I dunno, and I hope I never find out! Shoot? Perhaps, but only after I ran out of smiles, money, and beers to throw at 'em.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I consider that piracy, plain and simple. It is wrong, plain and simple. But there is a point here that I was trying to make:

It is a people that from their very beginning have known nothing but hate, and torture, pain and enslavement. They wake each day with no hope for tomorrow. Many, many make a living in a way that civilization would shun as immoral and reprehensible. They know nothing but survival for the day with little chance it will be better tomorrow. All day. All week. All month. All year. Year after year after year. No future.

It is a living so far beyond what almost ANY American (or anyone from a cilvilized country) can imagine that it is impossible to relate. Then they are told to guard themselves and watch the laws of man. SHow morality and generosity. They don't see thieving as an evil and a chance to take advantage of another man's misfortune, but as a way to another day of survival for them or possibly their family. And should they have been caught by the authorities, possibly more corrupt and malicious than they are, they would have been imprisoned or killed. That is the life of your Haitian, many Africans, many Palestinians, and countless others outside our borders. And we call them evil and pursue them to account for injustice. 
_
For if you suffer your people to be ill-educated, and their manners to be corrupted from their infancy, and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them, what else is to be concluded from this, but that you first make thieves and then punish them ?'_ Sir Thomas More, *Utopia*.

With very few exceptions, Man is born good. It is his surroundings that mold him. Until we understand that basic truth of humanity, there will always be terrorists & extremists. There will always be hatred. There will always be war.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

We are all 3 square meals away from anarchy.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Yep, what CD said!

Bob's plan is to look sooooo poverty stricken that they'll throw food at him!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> We are all 3 square meals away from anarchy.


Absolutely...that close......not that far.....


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## JimHawkins (Aug 25, 2006)

PBzeer said:


> I seem to remember that Clinton had "solved" all the problems there, guess my memory is going bad.


Oh so it's Clinton's fault. You people in the White House never cease to amaze me. You spend your time making up lies to show nothing's your fault, meanwhile your buddies are raping the world. But guess what... it's not working. Your support numbers are now in the teens, and those people probably all work for your fascist police organizations.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Absolutely...that close......not that far.....


Yep, 7.62mm exactly.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Dang Jim, the warning shot is supposed to go ACROSS the bow, not INTO the quarterdeck! 
I be smilin' and throwin' money and beers and such ...


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

Giulietta said:


> Starvation.....I've seen it, for real.....have you???? I doubt it.....


With all due respect you have NO idea what I have seen so please do not start making assumptions now.

Jerry


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I had a friend spend quite a bit of time in the DR last year.....so close BUT so far away from Haiti. He had a great time a rather large ****** sailing group there . Not that a large ****** sailing contingent is a good thing in itself just shows that it can be a pleasant enjoyable sailing destination. The feeway or I-95 are very dangerous places.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Sorry Jim, I'm not in the White House, nor affliated with anyone there. Nor do I make up lies about anybody. I have no need to, no agenda to push, nor any gain to be made.

I did not say Clinton caused the problems in Haiti, merely pointed out, in the context of nothing seems to change there, that the most visable effort failed.

So before you go off half cocked again, you might want to read what something actually says, instead of reading your own meaning into it and making personal attacks that you have neither the knowledge , nor cause to make.

Regards,


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

No friggin' doubt.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Haiti is no more Clinton's fault then Iraq is all GB's fault. The wounds of those lands preceed the USA. It is like I have said before, it is the environment. 20,000 troops in Haiti is no more going to fix hundreds and hundreds of years of atrocities than 20k-50k more troops in Iraq is going to fix thousands of years of hatred and revenge and blood letting.

Unfoftunately, our troops will get caught in the middle. People will point fingers here and there as republicans, or democrats, ill-conceived, or this, or that... when the basic problem is that the wounds that have been created over countless years in unimagineable fashions cannot be corrected in a matter of months, or years. You want to stop it (not fix it... stop it)? You can put in a despot leader/regime that is soo cruel, it will make the common man hate him more than the neighbor that killed his family. You can trump atrocities with brutality. And in doing so, you have re-set the clock of hatred countless more years and become the evil you tried to destroy.

As long as there is a people with no hope, there will be no peace.

- CD

Cliff notes: Don't sail through Haiti!!!!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Jerry,

Thank you for what you do.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

and Jerry, I don't think Giu meant it badly... he's a good guy (unless you are French)!!!


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Giu? Yeah, local vino, bad ganga, beautiful babes ... just not used to it!


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Giu has a bit of a point though, especially for people who are used to seeing the American "poor". (And no, that isn't meant to belittle them, nor make any other political statement) In a place like Haiti, they would be considered wealthy beyond measure. So it can be hard for a lot of people to truely grasp how desperate some are in this world.


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## JimHawkins (Aug 25, 2006)

Was I only half-cocked? Sorry. Next time I'll be sure to cock completely.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

Your welcome CD, but I did not give all as some did. I have been very fortunate. No, I am not French but I do have a very good friend who is. I was invited to his wedding last year in Bulgaria. I only learned one phrase there in my one week. "Nasdrave" I believe it is spelled.
Whoever said that we are 3 squares away from fighting is very right. No, I do not know what I would do if my family was starving but I would know in doing so I would be wrong and I would be responsible for any following repercussions. 
But again I was not there so I dare not Monday morning quarterback but I am a believer of superior firepower backed with knowledge and proper training.

Jerry


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

I spent a good deal of my life in lesser developed countries of the world, mostly in Asia and Africa. The last 6 years of my government career involved covering all 48 subSaharan countries; I visited and worked in about 30 of them. Shortly after retirement, I went for the first time to Haiti on a 6-week assignment. A year or so later, I returned for another 6 weeks.

Never, but never in my life have I seen urban poverty the equal of that I saw in Haiti. Anyone who has ever visited Cite Soleil (Sun City) in Port-au-Prince has an idea of what I'm saying. Haiti's poverty is unsurpassed by any in our hemisphere, or others.

No, poverty isn't an excuse. Nor is a very long history of corruption, mismanagement, and horrible acts perpetrated by a sucession of strongmen-thugs and would-be leaders. Dad is correct: Haiti's history is deplorable.

Think about it: on the VERY SAME ISLAND, just over the mountains to the East the Dominican Republic is doing very well, having gotten over some of it's dark history, while Haiti remains a dismal reminder of man's injustice to man and how extraordinarily difficult it is to overcome systemic problems....especially without real resources or adequate outside help.

As for the cop mentality, having been in a number of mob situations in developing countries I can tell you that drawing a gun would likely have been suicide. Yeah, you might have blown a few of these poor devils away, but the others would have had you for lunch. Remember the machetes?

The unfortunate crew did the right thing, and nobody got hurt. IMHO.

Bill


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## Waymar83 (Jun 5, 2006)

I really gotta weigh in here,

Have any of you ever set foot in Haiti? Have you read its history?

Here is Haiti 101: 
1) First and only Slave revolt in the world that was SUCCESSFUL.
2) Constitution since 1802, Had democracy with popular representation shortly after the US and France...(remember the US and much of South America still had slavery for decades after that)
3) At independence (in order to be allowed to be an independent country) was required to pay reparations to France equivalent to today of over $50B USD
4) After independence was blockaded by the US (fear of anti-slavery sentiment, competition to US economy). 
5) The recent invasion by the US was the 2nd or third US invasion.
6) Had a flourishing academic and artistic community (pretty much until Aristide)
7) Its university graduates, particularly in Law and Medicine, are regarded as some of the best in their profession in the world. Literature is also world class.Painters, etc..


Points 3,4 will cripple any country for a very long time. It does not leave you much to invest in your people does it. If you are not allowed to participate in free and fair trade, you also have little chance of making your lives better. How can these agricultural producers compete against the subsidies developed countries pay their farmers?

Despite all this you will still find decent people in Haiti. I lived there in 1988-89. Very many nice and genuine people, despite its bad luck. Many trying to better the lives of the communities.

I would not sail today near Haiti either, just as I would not sail along the coast of most poor countries. Poverty forces people to do things. When law and order break down and if the population is not offered hope, they make their own rules, etc..

It would seem to me that what happened off the coast of Haiti, given its history and current state of lawlessness, is nowhere near what happened in New Orleans or during the blackouts in NY a few years back, or the riots in Montreal after the Stanley Cup in 93 or 94 (for those hockey fans). There was no excuse for those.

The botom line is that the world has become a much smaller place,and the rule of law in another country, fair trade, pollution etc, have become everyone's business.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Bueno! Now that you've demonstrated your expertise, where, kind sir, lies the solution?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Waymar,

I have typed several replies to you... but depeted them. I guess my question is:

Are you insinuating that the US is to blame for Haiti's woes?


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

bob,

It is an unfortunate truth that there isn't necessarily a solution for every problem. And, where there is, that solution isn't always simple or palatable for many people.

A good start would be to strive to put things in perspective, be respectful of others, and do everything possible to provide real help, tailoring that help on an in-depth understanding of the key factors which need be modified.

The sorrowful truth is that we know how to do a lot of what's needed, but we seem to lack the political will to do so, perhaps because the choices we've made don't always reflect what we've learned from experience, the actual situation on the ground, or what's really needed to bring about a meaningful change.

I will refrain from going further, since I know there are participants on this net whose political persuasions sometimes prompt them to make knee-jerk comments which reflect either an abysmal ignorance or an intellect deeply clouded by political conviction. 

Bill


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## Waymar83 (Jun 5, 2006)

cockeyedbob,

Good question (not sure if you are being serious. I didn't mean to be condescending. It just happens to be an area I've worked in for over 20 years in many countries. I also have a hard time explaining/convincing my own brothers who have never lived in developing countries). 

Countries can pull themselves out of messes, with help.

Haiti is tough because it has had hot and cold relationships with "developed" countries. One year they get $100Ms with very little oversight, the next year there is an embargo and they get nothing. There is a need for long term consistent involvement.

Right now the gangs run much of the country (e.g.Cité Soleil). The security issue must be take care of. Haiti does not have the institutions to do it. They ahve to be built up.

The politics is near impossible. (This is a country where every politician wanst to be president)

The economy has to grow. For that, the private sector needs to develop and pump growth. Must be rules-based, transparent, have access to markets, etc. 

For that some basic infrastructure: electricity, water, roads, ports.

Integration as opposed to isolation. Pulling these decision makers into regional organisations (this creates peer pressure), has a tremendous impact when there is a critical mass.)

Last one:*TIME. Haiti will not be solved in 1, 3, 5 years. With consisted investment (not necessarily massive) by the rich countries (this means the aid agencies, etc) along with the proper oversight. (As a taxpayer, I don't mind a contribution, but I hate to see it pissed away)

my 2 cents worth.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Thanks Bill, I know what you're saying, but really want an answer from Waymar.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Ah yes, was being very serious. Thanks for the 2 cents, was worth every nickle of it! Was taught, when presenting a problem, suggest a solution.


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## Waymar83 (Jun 5, 2006)

All,

Its not a question of blame, its not an issue of ideology, its part of history. A blame game attempts to point fingers and leads to nowhere. 

I would just propose that as taxpayers and as voters, (and as sailors who get to see much of the world and interact with many cultures) we ask our elected representatives to be consistent and, in Haiti's case, be patient and engaged. 

Come to think of it, not just Haiti, all of the developing countries. When the international community stays engaged, there are successes and countries "grow" and become prosperous. When we ignore these countries, we get all sorts of surprises...


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Well said.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Well thought out waymar. Refreshing to see an approach that doesn't involve the blind tossing of money, without any real concern of what happens.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Well said indeed! Thanks 
I knew there was a pony in there somewhere! 
I be smilin', see?


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## capecodphyllis (Dec 7, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> But also realize that they are not just poor: They are starving with little to no chance to make any type of a life for themselves or their families in any way that is morraly acceptable in todays civilization.


My cousin is a U.S. Army Ranger who was sent to Haiti several times in the 1980s and 90s. He told me that Haitian women would literally beg him for a white baby. They would say "please give me a white baby".

At first I thought he was joking, but then he explained that they have a very strict caste system whereby the lighter your skin color, the higher your status. He said Haiti was "the most racist place he had ever been". One would think that the most racist place would be a "white country". Not true.

Heck, slavery is still thriving in the African Congo, just as it was 250 years ago. Food for thought.


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## capecodphyllis (Dec 7, 2006)

Waymar83 said:



> Come to think of it, not just Haiti, all of the developing countries. When the international community stays engaged, there are successes and countries "grow" and become prosperous. When we ignore these countries, we get all sorts of surprises...


Haiti is not a developing country.


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## rtbates (Jan 30, 2007)

wildcard said:


> It sure makes a case for being able to defend yourself.....


That, and giving Haiti a VERYYY wide berth. Don't anchor in Kingston either, or..... the list goes on and on...


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

PBzeer said:


> "After Aristide was removed by a military coup in 1991, President Bill Clinton in 1994 sent 20,000 U.S. troops to Haiti to restore to power this former Roman Catholic Priest and advocate for Leftist Liberation Theology who once called Cuban Marxist dictator Fidel Castro his "greatest personal hero."
> 
> I seem to remember that Clinton had "solved" all the problems there, guess my memory is going bad.


Sheeeesh, next you'll be saying Clinton was the first to speak of WMD in Iraq. Oh wait, he did say that.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*haiti and dominican republic*

i'm afraid some of you make the mistake of speaking of haiti and the dominican republic in the same sentence. they are very different places. we have spent quite a lot of time in the d.r. and have only had the best of experiences there. we have many friends in luperon as well as other towns and cities. s/v mello moon


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*haiti and dominican republic*

i'm afraid some of you make the mistake of speaking of haiti and the dominican republic in the same sentence. they are very different places. we have spent quite a lot of time in the d.r. and have only had the best of experiences there. we have many friends in luperon as well as other towns and cities. s/v mello moon


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