# New to Sailing - thinking of a Sense 50



## bert's_oyster (Aug 6, 2011)

Hello everyone,

I am somewhat new to sailing - I have been sailing as a guest and recently as crew but have never owned a boat. I am 60 and am thinking of buying a Sense 50. My wife and I would be the captn and crew so single-handed sailing capability would be important. Some people I have spoken to think I am crazy and others say that there should be no problem with the proper preparation and at least a one week sail and learn cruise with an instructor. I have completed a coastal navigation course and have my power craft operators card. My rationalization is based on an analogy - if my father had taught me to drive a transport truck rather than a car when I was sixteen there would be no fear of a big truck - so most of the cautionary comments have come from sailors that have moved up from a 25 ft boat to a 35 - hence my analogy above. Notwithstanding my view, I would appreciate any opinions and comments.

Thanks
John


----------



## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Absolutley a perfect first boat. Have fun.


----------



## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Welcome to Sailnet.

A 50 foot boat is quite a lot of boat to singlehand. It's also a lot of boat for a novice sailor and a novice sailor to singlehand.

Your big truck analogy is interesting and somewhat scary. 

My gut feeling? I'm struggling with the fact that I don't know you from Adam but from the little information given in your post, I'm reminded of when you pile up your plate with food because it all looks good, then can't eat it all and say that your eyes were larger than your stomach.

I saw the demo at the boat show. The boat is interesting.

It's your money and assuming that you have researched the cost of maintaining and operating a boat of this size, go for it. It kind of sounds like you have your mind made up already. 

You will no doubt get responses both for and against starting out with a boat this size. Good luck with whatever you decide!


----------



## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

bert's_oyster said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am somewhat new to sailing - I have been sailing as a guest and recently as crew but have never owned a boat. I am 60 and am thinking of buying a Sense 50. My wife and I would be the captn and crew so single-handed sailing capability would be important. Some people I have spoken to think I am crazy and others say that there should be no problem with the proper preparation and *at least a one week sail and learn cruise with an instructor*. I have completed a coastal navigation course and have my power craft operators card. My rationalization is based on an analogy - if my father had taught me to drive a transport truck rather than a car when I was sixteen there would be no fear of a big truck - so most of the cautionary comments have come from sailors that have moved up from a 25 ft boat to a 35 - hence my analogy above. Notwithstanding my view, I would appreciate any opinions and comments.
> 
> ...


Following your analogy, I think you're forgetting one thing. If all 16 year olds were taught how to drive in an 18-wheeler, the vast majority would crash it on their first outing. Especially if they were taught for a WHOLE WEEK.

Sailing is not hard to learn, learning what to do when things go wrong takes some time. Learning what to do when things go really wrong on a 50 foot boat will take longer.

I had a Hunter salesman tell me that if he couldn't teach me to singlehand a Hunter 50CC in a day, he'd give me my money back, so maybe I'm the crazy one. Of course, I've been sailing a 36 for 25 years, so that would probably help.

Lastly, if you should happen to fall and break your arm, make sure your wife can handle the boat all by herself.

Mike


----------



## bert's_oyster (Aug 6, 2011)

In my short message I didn't mean to over simplify the complexity of sailing in general and specifically a 50 boat. I realize that ability comes with experience. My intention would be to sail with crew that could take over if required and help with deck duties in the meantime. I have been lining up 'crew' when I have been speaking to friends that sail for the past 6 months - I think I have about 4-5 months of volunteer crew members signed up at this point. In addition, I wouldn't attempt any long distance or night sailing for quite a while. There is nothing wrong with day sailing. This boat (Sense 50) is also a boat that could be lived upon for part of the year and that is part of the plan - likely on the west coast of Canada.


----------



## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

John,

I'm glad that you returned to say that you understand the complexity of sailing.

My experience with novice sailors buying huge first boats has been as a CG Aux instructor and those boat owners thinking that since they have a big boat that they are practically immune to weather conditions, don't need to know how to plot a course on a chart because the chart plotter and GPS will miraculously get them there and won't fail and don't need to learn how to actually operate the boat because the autopilot will do everything. I had one student who had no idea what a wake was and he'd just bought himself a brand new 40 foot boat. He signed up for the class after he stood on the dock and realized that he had no idea what he was doing.

It sounds like you have a good plan for getting experienced crew to help you learn. I would also suggest that if you have any friends who own boats with fewer bells and whistles, that you ask to crew on their boats every now and then so that you get a feel for things like close maneuvering without the bow thrusters, docking, raising and lowering sails without the help of electronic furling systems. The larger the boat the less it is influenced by current and the less you feel how the boat responds. But there will come a time when you decide to visit a location where that may be important.

Also, I heartily agree with Mike's statement that your wife should be able to handle the boat. Accidents happen.


----------



## bert's_oyster (Aug 6, 2011)

*Good Feedback*

Thanks for the feedback. I believe that I forgot to mention that I have completed a coastal navigation course so would be comfortable navigating with paper charts, in fact it can actually be a lot of fun working out routes etc on the paper versions. I have a mapping and cartography background anyway so at least that part of sailing is now foreign to me.

If I was 40 years old I would start with a smaller boat and gradually work my way up in size. I am sort of jumping up the line because of my age. I am cautious and plan everything out in detail with contingencies - it has been part of my career to do this so being reckless is not in my nature. As for my wife, I will make sure she is totally comfortable with being a co-captain. In fact, it is more like she is captain and I am first mate!


----------



## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

bert's_oyster said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am somewhat new to sailing - I have been sailing as a guest and recently as crew but have never owned a boat. I am 60 and am thinking of buying a Sense 50. My wife and I would be the captn and crew so single-handed sailing capability would be important. Some people I have spoken to think I am crazy and others say that there should be no problem with the proper preparation and at least a one week sail and learn cruise with an instructor. I have completed a coastal navigation course and have my power craft operators card. My rationalization is based on an analogy - if my father had taught me to drive a transport truck rather than a car when I was sixteen there would be no fear of a big truck - so most of the cautionary comments have come from sailors that have moved up from a 25 ft boat to a 35 - hence my analogy above. Notwithstanding my view, I would appreciate any opinions and comments.
> 
> ...


John,

With today's boat, the manufacture will appropriately make their bigger boat andeasier to sail, it is their goal to make every successful couple to sail without going to hell of learning the hard way.

Sense 50, Jeaneau 409 and 473 are the good examples. With the furling jib and boom furling main, reversible electric wrench, bow thruster and rotational sail drive, we can learn it in half day and good at it than those take years to develop there skills.

It looks like that you are successful in life not by luck but by your intelligence, I am sure you can learn it faster then others.

Go ahead get your boat and start enjoying it. Take some ASA courses and slowly work up your confidence. Not all humans are created equal. Some are smarter than others.

I jumped into the big boat (37 ft) just about year, I singled handed the 3rd time I sailed. It is not about how big the boat is, it is about how the boat is set up and understand how the boat moves upon from the external force.

Obviously, some people need to spoon fed from 22, 30, 37, 43, 57 and 60 foot. If 60 meets your need, go with the 60. However, just be practical on what you really need and what areas you will sail her.

Take your time to buy the one you need and want. Walk out if they give you the high pressure sale talk. Let them know you are in control and it is not their call. 

Good Luck and have fun.


----------



## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

bert's_oyster said:


> If I was 40 years old I would start with a smaller boat and gradually work my way up in size. I am sort of jumping up the line because of my age. I am cautious and plan everything out in detail with contingencies - it has been part of my career to do this so being reckless is not in my nature. As for my wife, I will make sure she is totally comfortable with being a co-captain. In fact, it is more like she is captain and I am first mate!


hehehe.....I missed this reply when I posted mine. I must be a slow typist, Oh.... wait, I can't write. 
You are not alone, many of us choose sailing later in life. Some are by choice and some are by necessity. Although we are older now, we are not as agile and strong we once were, we make it up with more experience in life, a bit wiser, more connections, and financially stronger backing.

I do envy you, after all these sailing trips with my wife, she still refuses to be a crew on the boat. She claims she is a passenger. She said: Don't fall off, I only know how to call 911. I am glad that I added more life insurance two years ago. 

Consider yourself lucky.


----------



## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

rockDAWG said:


> I am glad that I added more life insurance two years ago.
> 
> Consider yourself lucky.


For her policy or yours? :laugher


----------



## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

T37Chef said:


> For her policy or yours? :laugher


What do you think, Chief? For her of course. . Women out live men for at least 20 years. My Mum outlives my father more than 20 years and counting.

Nature is telling us something about women.


----------



## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

I think you'll find that a lot of Sense 50 owners are 1st timers. The key to any undertaking, as you know, is planning, patience and the ability to be taught. Doesn't matter to me what anyone says; always, I will say it again, ALWAYS buy the biggest boat you can afford and sail her well.

That's a beautiful boat, and if you get it and have troubles getting someone to crew, you can always swing by the West Coast of Florida and I'd be happy to help out for a weekend.....or 50.


----------



## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

One thing to consider. If you plan to keep your 50 footer for very many years, starting at age 60, you need to think about what you'll be able to handle physically at 65, or 70. You are reaching the age, like it or not, that your physically abilities (strength and stamina) are going to decline, sometimes rapidly as you age. Who is going to wash that baby? Are you ever going to take down that big heavy mainsail? A big boat like that is beautiful, but there's lots of work there. Of course, buying a 50 footer to start means you have big bucks, so maybe you'll hire out all those tasks, and going a step further, hire a captain and crew.


----------



## Il Pescatori (Aug 18, 2011)

John,

I'm relatively new to sailing too (ASA 101, 103, and 104 last summer) and purchased a 49' ketch this spring. We hired our instructor to help us bring the vessel home from St. Augustine to the northeast. What an awesome sailing trip (lesson). We open our boat every weekend to sailing classes which has been a great experience for them and for us alike and have spent a considerable amount of time in the Atlantic, navigating the ICW, crossing bays and sounds, talking to bridge and lock tenders, setting our sails towards Portugal, and even docking at the tike bars. 

When shopping for a boat the best advice I got is "don't buy a starter boat but buy the boat you want to sail". I questioned this thinking at first... thinking I should start out in something smaller but after 4 months of ownership I realize that this was really great advice! I'm learning the vessel inside and out and know when it comes time to keep going towards Portugal I'll be ready and Dream will be too!

P.S. Don't be afraid to turn off the GPS and use your charts... you just might need the skills someday. We lost our battery bank the first night out in the Atlantic and sailed with just a chart, a red led flashlight, and a compass... the stars were spectacular. I wouldn't have wanted it any other way!


----------



## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

I suspect without proof that in some ways, a larger boat is easier to handle, assuming you have the right canvas for the conditions. On my 27 footer, moving around on the narrow, sloping, heaving, slipper deck in poor conditions is less than comfortable. Getting around the dodger feels like one of those movie scenes where the hero is chased out on a ledge high up a skyscraper. Having a spacious deck with plenty of handholds is a fantasy of mine.

The things that scare me about jumping right up to a 50 foot boat are the cost (including availability of moorage) and the maintenance.


----------



## bert's_oyster (Aug 6, 2011)

emoney,

Thanks for the comments. I will keep your offer to crew in mind although if my plans come to fruition, I will be sailing out of Vancouver, Canada.


----------



## bert's_oyster (Aug 6, 2011)

Il Pescatori,

Having worked with maps (paper versions) years ago and having taken air photo interpretation at night school for fun (also years ago), paper charting would not be drudgery but 'fun'.


----------



## bert's_oyster (Aug 6, 2011)

Adam

Lot's of room to go around the dodger and rigging on the Sense50. The Bean is almost 16'.


----------



## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I think sailing the boat will be a piece of cake. 
Manouvering and docking in tight quarters with wind and tide will be the biggest learing curve.


----------



## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

It's a cool boat for sure. My only worry would be that it's very new model, and perhaps the kinks won't be worked out of any design issues for a few years. Sometimes designers and engineers get it right on the first try. But more often they don't I would guess. 

Best of luck with your adventure. I am new to sailing this year and have sailed our newish 33 Hunter a couple dozen times this summer. There' something to be said for taking a couple of charters on a 33 and then buying your 50. That way you'll know how good you've got it.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have watched this thread hoping that someone would come in and provide the voice of reason. I guess its high noon and it’s my turn. Over the years I have seen a lot of posts like this where someone comes into sailing and with little or no experience, draws a bead on some particular make or model, and has the hubris to figure if they can write the check they can figure out how to sail the thing; sometimes they do, and sometimes they end up as a statistic. 

In almost any other field of endeavor that requires a very broad range of skills, people are willing to take their time, do an apprenticeship and learn by doing a logical step at a time. And there a few human endeavors which require a broader range of skills than voyaging under sail. 

In 50 years that I have been sailing, I have taught at least 100 people to sail. I have seen some who were naturals; the boat talked from to them from the first touch of the tiller and they learned at a rate that seemed impossible. And I have seen people who no matter how much time was spent with them, and how much time was spent on the water they would never be able to master the skills necessary to safely skipper a boat. 

But most people fall somewhere in between and learn a rate that is reasonable and progressive, but which is anything but instantaneous. Many of these people never do become truly skillful sailors. They learn to leave and return to a dock moderately safely, and sail moderately well in non-challenging conditions. If nothing too drastic happens, they get by. 

That level of skill may be all that they aspire to, and it may be perfectly adequate for how they use their boats. And with a modicum of common sense they buy boats which are of a size and type so that by design they may be forgiven for any sins they commit out there. 

These people enjoy they boats as much as anyone else, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that approach and level of knowledge as long as no one gets hurt. Over time, hopefully, they learn from their mistakes and while there is a lot they may not know about seamanship and boat handling, they get by. 

Historically when someone wanted to learn to sail quickly, they chose an apprenticeship which generally started in comparatively small boats for a whole range of good reasons. And it is not a coincidence that most if not all decent sailing schools teach young adults in dinghies or more mature or less agile novices on boats between 23 and 26 feet in length. 

Having tried to teach people to sail boats of a wide range of sizes, I can say that it is almost impossible to quickly learn to sail well on a big boats. The bigger the boat, the steeper the learning curve. The mechanical advantage and associated friction of managing the huge forces a big boat under sail, masks the more subtle forces that help a novice understand the interaction between a given course change or adjustment and the behavior of the boat. 

And there would be no foul if a person took longer to learn or never learned to sail well, except that when one talks about learning to sail on a big boat, the forces are huge and mistakes can be catastrophic. The forces exerted as boats get bigger rise exponentially. The control line force on a 50 footer approaches 8 times the force of those same lines on a 25 footer. And when it all works, modern hardware and materials make it possible for normal people to handle these enormous forces with some degree of safety. But doing so requires the understanding of the risks implied and precautions that these huge forces require. 

And that somehow works just fine and dandy as long as nothing goes wrong, but as I follow the sailing press and various sailing discussions, I keep hearing stories of people getting badly injured and killed out there. With greater frequency the stories circulate of boats lost and people drowned, a young woman losing all of the fingers on one hand carelessly left next to an electric winch drum, a child crushed between a boat and a dock. And the forums pine for the victims and skewer the skippers and crews and don’t look to ourselves for being honest brokers of information. 

So here it straight, it is not easier to sail a bigger boat than a smaller boat unless you are a skilled sailor to begin with. You may learn enough to get by, but if you are out there long enough, there will come that time when only boat handling and skills learned from a sequence of experiences will get you through. Automation may make the sailing physically easier, but it’s no substitute for knowing what you are doing. People get into this sport thinking they can buy some big boat and somehow just get by; some may have a good experience, but most that I have known leave the sport disappointed. You may chose to gamble with a big, complex mediocre constructed boat, and think that a few trips with a captain will teach you all you need to know, but frankly if that is how you look at it, at this point you really don’t understand the problem. 

This is not meant as a put down. We all had to start somewhere. It is meant as a heads-up and a “what-are-you-thinking?”

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have watched this thread hoping that someone would come in and provide the voice of reason. I guess its high noon and it’s my turn. Over the years I have seen a lot of posts like this where someone comes into sailing and with little or no experience, draws a bead on some particular make or model, and has the hubris to figure if they can write the check they can figure out how to sail the thing; sometimes they do, and sometimes they end up as a statistic. 

In almost any other field of endeavor that requires a very broad range of skills, people are willing to take their time, do an apprenticeship and learn by doing a logical step at a time. And there are few human endeavors which require a broader range of skills than voyaging under sail. 

In 50 years that I have been sailing, I have taught at least 100 people to sail. I have seen some who were naturals; the boat talked from to them from the first touch of the tiller and they learned at a rate that seemed impossible. And I have seen people who no matter how much time was spent with them, and how much time they spent on the water they would never be able to master the skills necessary to safely skipper a boat. 

But most people fall somewhere in between and learn a rate that is reasonable and progressive, but which is anything but instantaneous. Many of these people never do become truly skillful sailors. They learn to leave and return to a dock moderately safely, and sail moderately well in non-challenging conditions. If nothing too drastic happens, they get by. 

That level of skill may be all that they aspire to, and it may be perfectly adequate for how they use their boats. And with a modicum of common sense they buy boats which are of a size and type so that by design they may be forgiven for any sins they commit out there. 

These people enjoy they boats as much as anyone else, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that approach and level of knowledge as long as no one gets hurt. Over time, hopefully, they learn from their mistakes and while there is a lot they may not know about seamanship and boat handling, they get by. 

Historically when someone wanted to learn to sail quickly, they chose an apprenticeship which generally started in comparatively small boats for a whole range of good reasons. And it is not a coincidence that most if not all decent sailing schools teach young adults in dinghies or more mature or less agile novices on boats between 23 and 26 feet in length. 

Having tried to teach people to sail boats of a wide range of sizes, I can say that it is almost impossible to quickly learn to sail well on a big boats. The bigger the boat, the steeper the learning curve. The mechanical advantage and associated friction of managing the huge forces a big boat under sail, masks the more subtle forces that help a novice understand the interaction between a given course change or adjustment and the behavior of the boat. 

And there would be no foul if a person took longer to learn or never learned to sail well, except that when one talks about learning to sail on a big boat, the forces are huge and mistakes can be catastrophic. The forces exerted as boats get bigger rise exponentially. The control line force on a 50 footer approaches 8 times the force of those same lines on a 25 footer. And when it all works, modern hardware and materials make it possible for normal people to handle these enormous forces with some degree of safety. But doing so requires the understanding of the risks implied and precautions that these huge forces require. 

And that somehow works just fine and dandy as long as nothing goes wrong, but as I follow the sailing press and various sailing discussions, I keep hearing stories of people getting badly injured and killed out there. With greater frequency the stories circulate of boats lost and people drowned, a young woman losing all of the fingers on one hand carelessly left next to an electric winch drum, a child crushed between a boat and a dock. And the forums pine for the victims and skewer the skippers and crews and don’t look to ourselves for being honest brokers of information. 

So here it straight, it is not easier to sail a bigger boat than a smaller boat unless you are a skilled sailor to begin with. You may learn enough to get by, but if you are out there long enough, there will come that time when only boat handling and skills learned from a sequence of experiences will get you through. Automation may make the sailing physically easier, but it’s no substitute for knowing what you are doing. People get into this sport thinking they can buy some big boat and somehow just get by; some may have a good experience, but most that I have known leave the sport disappointed. You may chose to gamble with a big, complex mediocre constructed boat, and think that a few trips with a captain will teach you all you need to know, but frankly if that is how you look at it, at this point you really don’t understand the problem. 

This is not meant as a put down. We all had to start somewhere. It is meant as a heads-up and a “what-are-you-thinking?”

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

While in the minority, those with both aptitude and quality instruction can far outpace the average. Military pilots typically have fewer hours than GA pilots and start in more advanced hardware. They are exceptional among pilots, but make the point that not all must start at the bottom. The only question is whether one truly has superior aptitude *and* will commit to the training.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Well said Jeff. Why is it that the well heeled think that they are just gonna get on a boat and it's all going to just work? What ever happened to the practiced art of developing seamanship? Seems like the push button world has fooled a lot of sailors. We see it out here all the time. Retired guy buys the big boat, little experience, sets sail on the cruising dream only to end up in disaster a few months later. The sea soon sorts out these folks. Funny thing but the longer I'm out the less I really know....


----------



## Il Pescatori (Aug 18, 2011)

A persons natural ability has much to do with the learning curve as does their life experiences. I got my school bus drivers license at age 18 so BIGGER was normal for me. 66 passenger with air brakes... Woo woo! I'm sure some parents thought "Oh my god a kid's driving the bus!" Don't worry they all made it to school and back home safely. Now some 30-something years later if it's a machine I can figure out how to operate it in short order.

I'm sure many start their sailing career in a sunfish but for some the opportunity to begin sailing just doesn't come until much later in life. I've been a motor boater all my life but for me sailing only came about last year. First I got my ASA 101 and 103 in a Cal 22 and then did my ASA 104 in a O'Day 30 which we now joking call the "Better Boat". I've now logged over 3000 nm in the last 3 months in my H-49. Some off-shore between Florida and NY, some in the Intra-Coastal, but most of my time is spent off-shore practicing for the day I just keep sailing. BTW I've been flying since 1979 so the idea of using lift is not entirely new to me. 

Every time I leave the dock I navigate a timed bascule bridge, a very narrow train bridge, and two vertical-lift bridges that are in a narrow canal... sometimes with the current at my bow but often with the current at my stern. Although the canal bridges are "on demand" I've been asked to "hold" with the current at my stern which really is not possible. Maturity makes a difference at these times knowing you need to tell the bridge tender you can't hold for long or you'll lose your steering as you lose current across your rudder. 

Now I must say that I have relied heavily on my sailing instructor to shorten my learning curve and invite him to bring his classes aboard at every opportunity knowing that each time we go out together there are new things to learn... whether it's "man overboard" drills or "fish on - heave to!"

So I'm sticking with my advise and recommend that you get the boat you wish to sail and learn to sail it well.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

aeventyr60 said:


> .......We see it out here all the time. Retired guy buys the big boat, little experience, sets sail on the cruising dream only to end up in disaster a few months later.....


I would continue to insist that proper training is mandatory. I've been on the water for well over 30 years, but didn't get formal training until I was an adult. I some ways, I never knew what I didn't know.

However, for all the chest pounding of experienced sailors here, I'm not familiar with as many tales of true disaster as we would lead the newbies to believe. In fact, I think most fair just fine, because they are mature enough to know their limits. It is only the exceptions that get our attention.


----------



## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm not familiar with as many tales of true disaster as we would lead the newbies to believe. In fact, I think most fair just fine, because they are mature enough to know their limits. It is only the exceptions that get our attention.


Probably true, however, I would imagine that there have been a LOT of near misses, Coast Guard calls, cracked docks, damaged boats and terrified owners who did not necessarily jump onto a forum to talk about it. Just sayin'....

Mike


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> So here it straight, it is not easier to sail a bigger boat than a smaller boat unless you are a skilled sailor to begin with. You may learn enough to get by, but if you are out there long enough, there will come that time when only boat handling and skills learned from a sequence of experiences will get you through. Automation may make the sailing physically easier, but it's no substitute for knowing what you are doing. People get into this sport thinking they can buy some big boat and somehow just get by; some may have a good experience, but most that I have known leave the sport disappointed. You may chose to gamble with a big, complex mediocre constructed boat, and think that a few trips with a captain will teach you all you need to know, but frankly if that is how you look at it, at this point you really don't understand the problem.
> 
> This is not meant as a put down. We all had to start somewhere. It is meant as a heads-up and a "what-are-you-thinking?"
> 
> ...


Very nicely said, Jeff - and based on some of what I've read in this thread, your post probably deserves to be posted a THIRD time, and everyone should be required to read each and every one...(grin, bigtime)

Little I can add to yours, I'll just address a couple of other posts&#8230;



emoney said:


> I think you'll find that a lot of Sense 50 owners are 1st timers. The key to any undertaking, as you know, is planning, patience and the ability to be taught. *Doesn't matter to me what anyone says; always, I will say it again, ALWAYS buy the biggest boat you can afford and sail her well.*


Sorry to disagree, but if there is ONE thing I have learned from my 35 years in the yacht delivery business, that's a pretty reliable recipe for a boat being ultimately used far LESS than anticipated, and being put on the brokerage market sooner, rather than later&#8230;

Not to mention, in these times of extreme economic uncertainty, buying the "most you can afford" of _anything_ - much less a toy you've never played with before - well, I don't know&#8230;

Your mileage may vary, of course&#8230;



rockDAWG said:


> With today's boat, the manufacture will appropriately make their bigger boat andeasier to sail, it is their goal to make every successful couple to sail without going to hell of learning the hard way.
> 
> Sense 50, Jeaneau 409 and 473 are the good examples. With the furling jib and boom furling main, reversible electric wrench, bow thruster and rotational sail drive, we can learn it in half day and good at it than those take years to develop there skills.


Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more, I'm afraid that's an extremely naïve assessment&#8230;

Sure, furling headsails and in-boom mains have become quite the convenience, but are by no means bullet or foolproof&#8230; In fact, I believe a lot of the problems that arise with such systems today are the result of inexperience, a lack of basic understanding of the manner in which sails impart their loads upon such systems, and so on&#8230;

The ever-increasing reliance upon electric winches, windlasses, thrusters and so on by sailors with relatively modest experience is one of the scariest trends I see out there today&#8230; Many people have no idea or sense of the appropriateness of loads on this gear, and a lot of broken gear and exposure to potential injury is the result&#8230; when you're grinding a winch yourself, it's much easier to appreciate when something is possibly amiss&#8230; Pushing a button on an electric winch or Leisure-Furl, or your foot on the deck switch of a Lofrans Tigres windlass, well, not so much&#8230;.

Frankly, I'm surprised this sort of grisly accident that occurred in Antigua last winter isn't more commonplace today, as boats keep getting bigger, and their owners less experienced:



> A reportedly experienced Venezuelan cruiser visiting Antiqua in early March and a fellow sailor who came to her aid were seriously injured in a freak accident involving an electric winch. The woman was hoisting her husband up the mast using the electric winch instead of manually because of a recent shoulder surgery. When the electric winch wouldn't shut off, she called for help. Somehow the woman became entangled in the halyard lines and got her left arm trapped in the winch. In an attempt to free her left hand, the woman's right hand also became trapped. The first man to come to her aid could not help and called for further assistance. The second man on the scene, a Swiss sailor, got his fingers entangled in the winch in his efforts to aid the woman.
> 
> The winch eventually stopped on its own, and the woman's husband was lowered to the deck without injury. The woman's left hand was completely severed at the wrist, while her right hand was crushed, resulting in several broken bones. The good Samaritan who also became entangled severed eight of his fingers.
> 
> The two were rushed to Mount St. John's Medical Center, where doctors attempted to reattach the severed hand and fingers. The woman was eventually transferred to a hospital in Miami, while the gentleman spent five days at the local hospital.





rockDAWG said:


> Obviously, some people need to spoon fed from 22, 30, 37, 43, 57 and 60 foot. * If 60 meets your need, go with the 60.* However, just be practical on what you really need and what areas you will sail her.


LMAO! Well, if there's one thing a visit to Sailnet is almost guaranteed to produce, it's a reminder of what a wimp I've become by today's standards&#8230;

Last fall, I had to pass on a delivery of a 62-footer from New England to the BVIs, that's just WAY more boat than I want to be responsible for offshore&#8230;

I can't even fathom owning a 50-footer, 42' or thereabouts is as big as I'd ever want to go&#8230;

But that's just wimpy ol' me, obviously&#8230; (grin)


----------



## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

+100 Jon Eisenberg.
Learn to sail a Sunfish.
Learn to sail a Sunfish when it is blowing 20 knots.
Learn to sail a racing dinghy.
Learn to sail a racing dinghy in 20 knots.
Now try to sail either of these in 30+ knots of wind.
Next try learning to rig, sail and maintain a 30' or so keel boat with an inboard engine.
Learn how to maintain said engine.
Learn why we use winches with handles and how they too can be dangerous when loaded.
Learn how to reef your keel boat in < 30 knots of wind.
Learn how to deal with winds greater then 30 knots of wind in your much more stable keel boat.
Now repeat the above on the open ocean.
Or buy a motor boat instead.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> ....Sorry to disagree, but if there is ONE thing I have learned from my 35 years in the yacht delivery business, that's a pretty reliable recipe for a boat being ultimately used far LESS than anticipated, and being put on the brokerage market sooner, rather than later&#8230;


This is a good point. One does run the risk of overwhelming themselves and not enjoying it. However, quite the opposite can be true also.



> ......Frankly, I'm surprised this sort of grisly accident that occurred in Antigua last winter isn't more commonplace today, as boats keep getting bigger, and their owners less experienced:.....


This is the subtle point that I'm trying to make. I fully agree that experience is valuable. If I had to choose, I would advocate formal training over experience. I know many captains that have 20 years coming up through the ranks, but learned most things by trial and error and do them incorrectly.

Further, we don't hear of the accidents you posted, because, while they can and do happen, I think we have a tendency to exaggerate the odds.



> Last fall, I had to pass on a delivery of a 62-footer from New England to the BVIs, that's just WAY more boat than I want to be responsible for offshore&#8230;
> 
> I can't even fathom owning a 50-footer, 42' or thereabouts is as big as I'd ever want to go&#8230;
> 
> But that's just wimpy ol' me, obviously&#8230; (grin)


Really? Do you mean short handed? I'm assuming you wouldn't have even been asked if you weren't an experienced offshore deliver skipper. As such, I've never met one that couldn't handle a 50 ft boat???? That just seem to be scaring the newbies to me.

I get the overall point. I just prefer to offer sound advice, rather than prohibition. Newbies can and will buy big boats even with scare tactics. I prefer to point them in the right direction when they do.


----------



## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

CalebD said:


> +100 Jon Eisenberg.
> Learn to sail a Sunfish.
> Learn to sail a Sunfish when it is blowing 20 knots.
> Learn to sail a racing dinghy.
> ...


Sounds like the best possible plan. How long should you spend at each of these eleven steps? I'm guessing, more than a year. How old would you need to be when you start this rigorous learning process, in order to be doing the sailing you want when you're in your prime? And what procedure should you follow instead if you miss the deadline?


----------

