# How much does it REALLY cost to own a sailboat?



## TSOJOURNER

*Hi,*

I have my heart set on a 1991 Island Packet 32'. The owner is asking $88k. That's about the only number I'm sure about! I could really use some help understanding all the miscellaneous costs involved.

I've only owned trailable sail and power boats in the past, so I'm really just guessing at the following purchase related and monthly costs:

-ONE TIME COSTS:
$19,620.00	- Down payment (90k, w/9% tax, $98,100) (20% of $k), $19,620
$275.00 - Loan processing fee (Key Bank)
$650.00 - Survey (@ $20 per ft.)
$549.00 - Coast Guard Documentation	(Require???)
-- -- -- -- 
*$21,094.00	Total*

-MONTHLY REOCCURRING COSTS:
$709.00 - Loan (15 yr @ 8.5%, w/20% down)
$277.77 - Repair & Upgrade ($10k yr) ~ (This is my bottom cleaning, haulout, new/upgrade gear fund. I'd like to itemize if I had good numbers)
$242.69 - Slip fee, + 9% Tax (very nice Bellingham, WA marina)
$70.00 - Insurance ~ (Internet quote. Not at all sure what type of coverage I should buy)
-- -- -- -- 
*$1,299.46	Total*

Am I in the ballpark or being naïve? What costs am I forgetting about? If you've been tracking your costs in Excel (or could run a Quicken or Microsoft Money report) that would be incredibly helpful!

Many thanks,

_*Eric*
Seattle_


----------



## sailingdog

You are getting ripped off on the USCG documentation IMHO... Yes, most lenders will require it, as it allows them to put a lien on the vessel more easily and makes their loan a bit more secure. That kind of loan is actually called a Marine Mortgage, since it is a secured loan. 

I doubt your insurance is going to be only $840 a year, but I could be wrong—this is especially true if you want to go bluewater cruising in the boat. Given that you're looking at an IP32, rather than a Benehuntalina...you're probably not looking to stick to the coast. 

Also, your slip fees sound low, since they're less than $3,000 per year. The repair and upgrade numbers are very low... since they're less than $3,500 annually, and this is a 17-year old boat we're talking about. You should figure on closer to $10,000 per year, at least initially....especially if you're planning on outfitting the boat for bluewater cruising.


----------



## chucklesR

I have to totally disregard the monthly re-occurring cost as they are individual in nature depending on your boat and payments, same with slip rental and insurance.
We use Quicken to manage our house hold expenses and categorize nearly every purchase. We only pulled like 700 bucks in cash this past year - everything else is debit card and therefore traceable. What that means is I have a REALLY good idea of exactly what it costs maintain our boat, which is a 2007 Gemini Catamaran so it goes more on toys and less on repair right now. Next year I'm opening a separate account so I'll know even better; all boat stuff will be on the one card, and nothing else.

Bottom line, we sink about 6k a year into the boat, haul outs included (haul out is 500, plus 250 a month for 6 months on the hard). That's everything from diesel to D-rings for canvas work.
That doesn't include 1300 a month in payments, 2500 a year in slip, 860 a year in insurance or food and beverages consumed on board.


----------



## bobmcgov

WARNING! DANGER! These calculations are veering perilously close to "How many dollars am I spending per sailing hour", and that way madness lies. Just keep telling yourself, "It's cheaper than a day at Disneyworld. It's cheaper than dental surgery. It's cheaper than Eliot Spitzer's girlfriend." 

Well, comparable anyhow. At least a sailboat comes with equity!


----------



## Valiente

My boats are paid for (luckily), and so I know my slip fees, club fees, obligatory restaurant minimum, and insurance is about $4,800/year. The insurance for my 41 foot steel cutter is $1,400, but that is for April-October in the water, and November-April on the hard.

Ongoing costs tend to be on a 'project" basis, as I am refitting for long-term voyaging. A new suit of sails will cost about $7,000, as will an engine rebuild (if one is necessary). Assorted fabrications will cost $5-7K, and a complete solar set-up will run $3K, plus a couple of grand for loads of truck batteries.

As you can see, equipping for offshore can mean a lot of money, but they are once in 20 year costs (sails offshore are once in six to eight years if you baby them). I am doing a lot of the work myself, however, and so am saving labour costs.

I don't even count rum!


----------



## sailingdog

Bob-

She ain't your girlfriend if you're paying by the hour and know the rate... 


bobmcgov said:


> WARNING! DANGER! These calculations are veering perilously close to "How many dollars am I spending per sailing hour", and that way madness lies. Just keep telling yourself, "It's cheaper than a day at Disneyworld. It's cheaper than dental surgery. It's cheaper than Eliot Spitzer's girlfriend."
> 
> Well, comparable anyhow. At least a sailboat comes with equity!


----------



## bobmcgov

sailingdog said:


> Bob-
> 
> She ain't your girlfriend if you're paying by the hour and know the rate...


My point exactly: She ain't your boat if you're paying by the hour and know the rate...

Put away the spreadsheet, Chuckles. You won't be able to get the dancing numbers out of your head. Bad for your performance. Just set your jib, lie back and think of England. If you want to anguish over price per hour, charter a cat in the BVI. It's all itemized on the bill.

I like to pretend the boats are totally free, but some dastard has my debit card info and keeps stealing from my bank account. That way my poverty-driven anxiety is directed away from sailing. Clever, huh?


----------



## camaraderie

Sales tax when you buy the boat?
Annual Personal Property tax? 
Fuel?
Allowance for INITIAL upgrades/repairs before "normal" annual maintenance?


----------



## jrd22

I think your numbers sound realistic, although the insurance seems a bit low for the value of the boat. You will only need one haul out per year and bottom paint every two-three years around here. So I think the 10K/year upgrade maintenance is good unless the boat needs a lot of renovation (you might want to figure a bit higher for the first year). A lot will depend on your personality (and budget), if everything has to be "new" then you better up the $ figure substantially. If the boat is in really good condition and most things are OK for you the way they are you won't spend that much other than wear items and "toys".

SD- the moorage rates are about average for this area, I pay $3600yr for a 42' slip (year round, we sail 12 months here) at Blakely Island and about $2500 for a 30' in Anacortes.

Good luck with the new boat if you get it,

John


----------



## sailaway21

"If you have to ask, you cannot afford it." _JP Morgan_, yacht owner


----------



## BarryL

Hello,

You wrote:

> $277.77 - Repair & Upgrade ($10k yr) ~ (This is my
> bottom cleaning, haulout, new/upgrade gear fund. I'd
> like to itemize if I had good numbers)

How did you get that number? 10K / year is $833 per month. 

Regardless, you should assume a new set of sails every 10 years (at $4K per set?) or $400 a year for sails. What about bottom paint? How much for a coat and how long does it last? Batteries don't last forever, what about engine maintenance? What about electronics?

For me, I spend 5-6K a year on my boat. That includes everything. I am cheap because my boat is on a town mooring.

Barry


----------



## WouldaShoulda

9% tax??

WTF??


----------



## Delirious

It just adds up & adds up. Spares, flares and 20% over-run from whatever you initially think any project or purchase will be.

Easier to just take your checkbook and bank account and empy them into the shredder. That saves car fuel to and from the boat. ;-)

Your numbers don't look far off. $10K for maintenance should be plenty. How much you can do yourself is a huge factor. Hereabouts we used VC-17m (freshwater) and that is a self-applied product that can be sprayed or rolled on; so for me bottompainting is a $175 annual cost or less.

Do you have to haul & drop the mast seasonally & re-launch in the next season? Pump outs, fuel fill-ups (we've had years with five gallons of diesel!)

Then there are the unexpecteds. Joker valve for head. Backing down on your own anchor line. Seagull strike on anemometer. Joker valve for head. Winch handle dropped on binnacle compass. Another freakin joker valve! "I thought YOU tied off the dinghy!" Bosun's chair after curious nephew unclips main halyard. "I thought YOU tied off the other end of the anchor rode!" Joker valve - that's it, that Jabsco GOES!" Glow plug. "Weren't both of your boat shoes drying on the deck?" Winch handle goes "bloop". 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that B.O.A.T. = Bring out another thousand.


----------



## Ilenart

I think there are four stages of boat accounting

stage 1 you record everything in detail
stage 2 you record only the big items
stage 3 you start lying to your wife
stage 4 you start lying to yourself!

I've heard that a good approxiation is 10-15% of the capital cost for a 10-15 year boat (excluding borrowing costs but including upgrade / replacement costs). My first year the number was 18% (1st year costs are always higher) and last year it was 14%.

Have fun

Ilenart


----------



## sailingdog

Stage 5-You just stop counting. 


Ilenart said:


> I think there are four stages of boat accounting
> 
> stage 1 you record everything in detail
> stage 2 you record only the big items
> stage 3 you start lying to your wife
> stage 4 you start lying to yourself!
> 
> I've heard that a good approxiation is 10-15% of the capital cost for a 10-15 year boat (excluding borrowing costs but including upgrade / replacement costs). My first year the number was 18% (1st year costs are always higher) and last year it was 14%.
> 
> Have fun
> 
> Ilenart


----------



## rperret

Stage 0.5 - Buy Boat
Stage 5 - Sell Boat.

to original poster - don't forget to add Yacht Club/Boat Club membership if you're joining a club.

Agree that the insurance number seems low for a $80K boat. What is condition of standing and running rigging? condition of motor? need to consider that as well.

Rick



Ilenart said:


> I think there are four stages of boat accounting
> 
> stage 1 you record everything in detail
> stage 2 you record only the big items
> stage 3 you start lying to your wife
> stage 4 you start lying to yourself!
> 
> I've heard that a good approxiation is 10-15% of the capital cost for a 10-15 year boat (excluding borrowing costs but including upgrade / replacement costs). My first year the number was 18% (1st year costs are always higher) and last year it was 14%.
> 
> Have fun
> 
> Ilenart


----------



## denverd0n

Oh, come on! You guys are all making this WAY too hard!

How much does it REALLY cost to own a sailboat?

Everything you've got!


----------



## TSOJOURNER

I want to thank each of you for your responses! And a special thanks to BobMcGov. Your post still makes me laugh! 

SailDog, actually I do only plan on coastal cruising for the next several years. I'm not sure how much that affects insurance, maintenance and outfitting costs. I'd really appreciate line item type cost info for these and other reoccurring service and maintenance costs.

Truth is, I simply don't know what needs to be done, how often, and what it costs. Thanks again for all the great information. SailNet Rocks!

Eric


----------



## Mark1948

You actually plan to pay asking price??? Have you checked book value, looked for issues to negotiate etc?


----------



## Delirious

> actually I do only plan on coastal cruising for the next several years.


Ooooo. The double or triple the cost of a slip as you'll always be paying the higher transient rates. And no matter where you try to anchor - "you can't anchor there".


----------



## bestfriend

Thats a good point. In this market, you should under bid by a lot. You never know who wants to just get rid of it. If he says no and does not come back with a counter, you are way off base. In this market I would bid at least 25% under. "Blue book" value is useless right now. Anyway, its always about what people will take, not what the book says. If he says no, keep looking. You will have a year or two here to find some good deals on some good boats. From just talking to a broker friend, good boats under 50k are still going quick, especially Catalinas (people want the most popular name for easy resell). The best deals are the production boats over 100k that people thought they could afford but realized they can't, and the more limited, lessor known production boats that are fully outfitted and the owner is moving on. 

As for what its going to cost you. Take the number you think, and add 50%. Seriously. Especially in the first year. The other thing to consider is that if you have a house, a boat will make it like you own two houses. Its a lot of continuous work to stay on top of.

Best of luck to you. Even though my response is a bit discouraging, I still love sailing.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Hey Delirious! I loved your post from yesterday. As my wife says, "It's only REALLY funny if there's truth to it!".

Maybe I don't know the lingo. I'm in line for a slip at a public marina (Bellingham, WA) and plan to sail the San Juan and Gulf Islands. So the slip fee should be a set cost.

BarryL, 
My mistake on the $277 a month, that's 1/3. I was hoping to find 2 partners for the boat. Seems the general consensus is that successful partnerships are rare. 

Eric


----------



## Allanbc

Just sell you soul and be done with it!


----------



## Bene505

I noticed on a rate sheet the other day that marinas with service winches (not wenches). How often do windlases need to be serviced? Is this something that I can do myself, or is it too complicated.

Same question for winches.


----------



## zz4gta

Bene505 said:


> I noticed on a rate sheet the other day that marinas with service winches (not wenches). How often do windlases need to be serviced? Is this something that I can do myself, or is it too complicated.
> 
> Same question for winches.


Winches are easy. I did all 4 of mine in a couple evenings after work. Never did a windlass.

On the expense topic? Boating is as expensive as you want it to be. Lets face it, bare bones, you can sail pretty cheap. But most people like heat, hot water, a nice galley, microwave, flat screen TV, autopilot, lazyjacks, GPS, furler, etc. And then ***** and moan about the cost of maintenance. A little hint, its not the maintenance that's expensive. Sure, it costs some dough to keep a boat in good condition, but no one told you to buy the wizbang, stainless steel BBQ with the kegorator tap accessory.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

my boat:

Grampian 26.
cost $3500
Outboard $3000 (Honda 9.9 with power everything)
Setup cost $1000 (lifejackets, safety equipment, rewiring)
New Bacon Sail $750
Winter haul/wash/store/launch $1300
Outboard maintenance $100
Mooring for boat... priceless (thanks Grandma)

So, about $8000 to fully get 'into the boat'
about $2000 per year to use it...

This is a 1971 boat...its exactly what I wanted to learn on, but completely out of scale for what you are talking about... btw, my father got all upity.. he bought himself a new fangled O'Day sailboat..1973..just showing off his big bucks on a new boat


----------



## sailingdog

Well, if you buy the wrong boat—it can cost way, way too much.


----------



## Delirious

Bene505 said:


> I noticed on a rate sheet the other day that marinas with service winches (not wenches). How often do windlases need to be serviced? Is this something that I can do myself, or is it too complicated.
> 
> Same question for winches.


I'm a sweetwater sailor and winches need to be serviced about every 15 years. ;-)

For the "real world" a copir paper box lid with a hole cut to fit snugly over the winch base (to catch the springs, pawls and clips) and a jar of Lanocote and it's not a bad annual process.

The windlass? Electric or mechanical? Maxwells go a few years (I never serviced mine on the C34MkII as I couldn't get to the darned thing). In a salt environment I imagine it's an annual inspection if not active maintenance.


----------



## MtnMike

camaraderie said:


> Sales tax when you buy the boat?
> Annual Personal Property tax?


What can be done to minumize these cost? We are looking at boats in the Florida area and Florida gives you 90 days to leave the state with the boat, therefore avoiding paying sales tax in Florida. As we are leaving Colorado to go sailing, we are essencially stateless as far as residency. Are there any east coast states that are better than others to establish residency in that don't charge sales tax or Personal Property tax?

Mike


----------



## Delirious

New Hampshire.

Though states without sales tax generally have a personal property tax. There is no tax free state of Utopia as yet.

Own up to it. There's a reason you pay sales or peoperty tax. 

Don't be a leech on society.


----------



## TomandKarens34

stage 1 you record everything in detail
stage 2 you record only the big items
stage 3 you start lying to your wife
stage 4 you start lying to yourself!

Oh my word, I loved that ! So well put !
I have a new plan. "Don't look back." Its only restriction is I can't raid my retirement funds and I can't take out any loans, except on the CC, and that has a $1500 limit. Thank heavens I can do my own work. 
I'm figuring about $2400 a year once the repairs are done. Things are cheaper in Maine.


----------



## xort

MtnMike said:


> What can be done to minumize these cost? We are looking at boats in the Florida area and Florida gives you 90 days to leave the state with the boat, therefore avoiding paying sales tax in Florida. As we are leaving Colorado to go sailing, we are essencially stateless as far as residency. Are there any east coast states that are better than others to establish residency in that don't charge sales tax or Personal Property tax?
> 
> Mike


You will be a resident of Colo until you domicile somewhere else.
NH was suggested. They do not tax the sale of boats nor do they tax regular income but they do tax investment income (if you have any left).
There is a lot to consider re domicile if you are going to be a full time cruiser. I think it's been brought up on other threads here, If not start one in the cruising category.


----------



## sailingdog

If you're going to be a full-time cruiser MTnMike, you really do have to consider all the legal ramifications of where you pick to be your legal address, as well as how to deal with things like mail, bills, financial institutions, etc. Eryka has a good thread on it IIRC.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

While I still can't get over that 9% tax thing earlier, it costs us about 3k/yr in storage and maintenance for a 27ft boat in a slip hauled every winter and bottom painted every other year in the Chesapeake Bay.

This expence in a minimum that could reasonably be expected on any boat of this size class and location.

That the boat costs $1,500 or $150,000 doesn't matter!!


----------



## MtnMike

Delirious said:


> New Hampshire.
> 
> Though states without sales tax generally have a personal property tax. There is no tax free state of Utopia as yet.
> 
> Own up to it. There's a reason you pay sales or peoperty tax.
> 
> Don't be a leech on society.


We're certainly not seeking a "tax free state of Utopia". 
I hardly feel that we are "leeches on society" since I've worked for many years, owning my own company. I shudder to think of the self employment taxes, workmens comp. for employees and many other taxes to operate a business that regular employees don't even know about. So if that makes me a leech, I'll be sure not to spend any of my hard earned money in NY.


----------



## Delirious

We're not talking about running your business. We're talking about a sailboat - though owning a large boat is like running a small business. It produces nothing, helps no one but you, though, and is therefore taxable. 

If you're looking for a way to avoid taxes you're weaseling out of something. Those of us who do pay "our fair share" would pay less if folks stopped finding loopholes.


----------



## johnshasteen

Here's a simple rule of thumb: Capture every cost you can imagine, from every source you can. Then, assume that it will cost more than that.
With that said, although the Island Packet is a really nice boat, think about buying an older, well-respected bluewater boat (like Pacific Seacraft, Cape Dory, Bristol) pay a whole lot less, maybe half the price of the Island Packet - put a couple of thousand into it, if needed, and enjoy yourself - rather than being saddled with - and trying to justify to your wife, thekind of costs you've calculated so far.


----------



## hellosailor

USCG Documentation runs roughly $100 if you visit their web site, call them, do it yourself. They're very helpful. HOWEVER the $549 may include title checks and insurance, and the company's own extra labor fees for doing the filings, etc. themselves. They may require this, and if they do, it is just a zinger you can't avoid.

Your insurer may require that the standing rigging be replaced if it is more than 10-15 years old. That's something you may want to do regardless.

And try the folks at IMIS 410-643-8330; fax - 410-643-8331; 1-800-541-4647 for a reality check on your insurance. Decades of top feedback and no complaints, they aren't always the cheapest but they're competitive _professionals_, and they will warn you about coverage omissions and errors you may be making with cheap web policies.


----------



## travler37

*Huraa!!*



MtnMike said:


> We're certainly not seeking a "tax free state of Utopia".
> I hardly feel that we are "leeches on society" since I've worked for many years, owning my own company. I shudder to think of the self employment taxes, workmens comp. for employees and many other taxes to operate a business that regular employees don't even know about. So if that makes me a leech, I'll be sure not to spend any of my hard earned money in NY.


 Hands the man a open labats and salutes him.If he thinks looking for a way to pay less taxes makes you a "leech" he is still working for someone else!Has never had the experence/right to employ someone else legally....And the drain in the bottom line.

Gives you a different look on life when your on the cheak writing end!!!!
Fair Winds
Mark


----------



## Delirious

hellosailor said:


> USCG Documentation runs roughly $100 if you visit their web site, call them, do it yourself. They're very helpful. HOWEVER the $549 may include title checks and insurance, and the company's own extra labor fees for doing the filings, etc. themselves. They may require this, and if they do, it is just a zinger you can't avoid.


$108 if you want to change the name and/or hail port. My broker would have charged $450 to do it through the dealership (and recommended I do it myself - As I do you). I did it once before and found the Coast Guard very easy to do business with. The self-service forms are MUCH easier now; but even in 1995 (last time I did one on my own) they were very helpful with instructions over the phone.


----------



## sailingdog

If the bank's documentation service includes title checks and insurance, it may well be worth the extra money.


----------



## MtnMike

We got an estimate at the Annapolis Boat Show for insurance. We used a 38' Island Packet printed off Yacht World for our estimate. We held nothing back as far as experience, boat condition or cruising grounds. They gave us an estimate of $1185.00/yr. for coverage on $150,000.00 boat in good condition. That's full coverage and uninsured boaters insurance with no towing. I believe IMIS would be considerably more, but they hesitated giving us an estimate without actually owning the boat with current survey. We're still working things out with IMIS.


----------

