# MOB Procedure with an inexperienced 2nd mate



## tschmidty (Sep 25, 2008)

So I have been thinking about MOB procedures on an upcoming trip with my SO. This will be the pamlico sound where the depths are pretty shallow < 50 ft almost certainly and a small 23 foot boat with outboard off the back (hard enough to get too and start for me) I am trying to think of the best way to instruct her on MOB procedures if I go overboard. I feel i need to keep it simple enough she can remember. This will not be at night and won't be particularly rough conditions. I know I will hear arguments against but essentially we are talking about single handing. So I see two scenarios.

1. I fall off, will have inflatable life jacket and/or good physical fitness but she needs to stop the boat for me to get back on. What is the easiest way? I am thinking secondary anchor in the cockpit, bitter end already tied up front. toss it overboard (avoiding life lines, pulpits, etc.) and sheet sails in tight (remember shallow depths, 150' of line). With where we will be I have good faith the anchor will catch and hold. Ideally she will drop sails (just ran lines to cockpit and rigged topping lift so no sail on head) at that point. So hopefully boat stops and heads into wind.

2. Secondary and probably in combination to this I have a cheat sheet next to the VHF for a distress call. I think it would be best to tell her to make this call unless I am right next to the boat and imminently boarding. I can always cancel if I get back soon enough.

Of course it'd be great if she could just round up,come about and pop into a heave to position 5 feet downwind of me but being realistic what else should i be instructing a novice to do in this sort of situation? I could conceivably provide a longer checklist for a longer duration situation but trying to not complicate things too much (and yes I know how that sounds). The point is to keep her (the SO or the boat, hmm...) out of danger at that point more so than myself. 

So...thoughts?


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## Skyeterrier (Feb 11, 2016)

Honestly my gut feeling is it would be easier to teach her how to heave-to than to anchor. How to tack and heave-to should be fairly easy to teach a novice unless they have zero interest in driving the boat or learning any sailing.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

If I fall overboard I doubt any of my crew would be able to handle the boat well enough to get me. I have instructed them to just release the main and genoa sheets and just let the sails flog. The boat should stop and I hope I can swim back to the boat. 

I almost always wear an inflatable and have a hand held VHF too. If I can't swim back to the boat I pop the inflatable and call for help.

At least that's the way I imagine it will go.

Barry


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

"Heave to" does not stop boat, she travels at least with a speed of two knots. Dropping sails and anchoring is a much better alternative. But the best method is not to go overboard. Teach yourself to stay off the dink.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

One way or the other, you're going to have to do some teaching and practicing. No other way. The absolute first thing you must train is for your SO to throw you some flotation and something that would easier to relocate than your head. A MOM on the rail is a very good idea, when double handing. No way to stop the boat and keep an eye on the MOB at the same time. If you have a chartplotter, they often have a MOB button to press that marks that location. However, they would need some ability to know how to navigate back to it.

For a non-sailing novice, using the engine is probably going to be a must. Teach them to turn the boat directly into the wind. They won't inherently know where that is, like you do, but its the easiest to learn, since the windex on the mast head always points there. Then start the engine to keep it there. Teach them to quickly drop sails and come back for you.

Believe it or not, the big trick is to get you back aboard, when they reach you, if you're unconscious or too cold to move your limbs. Have a plan.

Trying to teach a novice the figure 8, quick stop, etc, is futile, IMO.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Practice with a float cushion, just throw it overboard and yell, see how the crew reacts. Remind them it might be a real person next time.
Every Boat should have a boarding ladder if you don't, get one. You're smart to wear a PFD, I always reason the person that knows the operation of the Boat the best should be the one wearing. Everyone is better.
You're thinking, that's good, everyone should have a plan.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Two methods that involve heaving-to. They can be done by one person. The downwind method is a bit harder to do.



















Practice, practice, practice.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Trying to teach a novice the figure 8, quick stop, etc, is futile, IMO.


That is exactly what instructors do. We teach novices to do 4 different MOB's; upwind and downwind under sail, Anderson and Williamson turns under power.


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## rnixon (May 7, 2013)

jackdale said:


> That is exactly what instructors do. We teach novices to do 4 different MOB's; upwind and downwind under sail, Anderson and Williamson turns under power.


Instructors are used to teaching, are clam and collected at (almost) all times. It's not easy. Then there's the issue of panic - it's hard to know quite how someone will react when it's real.

Heaving-to is probably not too much to do, even in a panic, but you need to be conscious to swim back. I second the throwing of floatation / anything to litter the sea around you. Otherwise, I'd probably concentrate on basic sailing skills, to get your crew comfortable with single-handiing, before trying real MOB procedures.

If I'm the only one on the boat that has a chance of saving a MOB, and there's little chance of another boat being there, then I'd wear a harness. I always wear a PFD with a strobe and whistle and have a handheld VHF.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Don't fool yourself into thinking you'll just swim back to the boat. It WILL drift faster than you can swim unless it's a dead calm.
I'm in good shape and a very good swimmer, thought we'd try it once on a fairly calm warm day I jumped off the back of the boat, everybody knew what was going to happen, by the time they got things sorted to begin recovery the boat was damn far away and drifting much faster than I could ever swim.
This was in a controlled situation with people who could handle a boat and knew somebody was about to go overboard on a nice sunny afternoon.
Something I'd suggest everybody try at least once, would put a lot of foolish ideas to rest.
The people on board were equally surprised at how many times they lost sight of me between the waves at a fairly short distance.
Think this is the second time I've told this story on here.....


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## tschmidty (Sep 25, 2008)

I will definitely add the part about throwing things at me! Except she might get confused and throw the anchor at me... I have a life ring and throw rope on the railing.

My PFD have a harness and when I am solo i always clip in getting out of the cockpit or when leaning to do anything with the outboard. It also has a whistle and light. I can't say i always have my handheld VHF clipped on but will start trying to remember that as well.

And I definitely get the drift part which is why the anchor as opposed to the heave to.

Bu I am trying to make sure to keep it simple enough that in a panic situation she can get it. I'd also have a couple cheat sheets she can look at. AFTER she throws things at me!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Stopping the boat is all well and good. What's going to hold you in position, or get you back to the boat?
In a strong enough wind or current, you're going to be blown downrange of your boat.

I agree that a MOM-8 or 9 or SOS Danbouy is the right gear to have onboard. The MOM-8 or 9 requires re-certification by professionals. The Danbouy does not, and can be self-maintained.

This gives you and your "crew" some options:

1. If the weather is very flat, calm and warm with no current, she can stop the boat and you can swim back.
2. If there is current or wind, you can hang onto the Danbouy for quite sometime and possibly call for help yourself with a properly protected cell phone or waterproof handheld VHF.
3. Your crew could possibly maneuver the boat back to you, and recover you because they can see the Danbouy.

I'm of mixed opinion on the use of a Lifesling. On one hand, your crew could deploy it and circle you until you grab it, and they can recover you.
On the other hand, if they are inexperienced and end up fouling the prop with the Lifesling line, it's just going to cause more problems. The line is polypropylene so it floats, but you can still run it over and tangle it around the keel, rudder or prop.

All of this lengthy discussion brings me back to my Rules #1, #2 and #3:
Stay on the boat.
STAY on the BOAT.
STAY ON THE [email protected] BOAT!

I wear an auto-inflating PFD with harness, double-tether and crotch strap when singlehanding.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

tschmidty said:


> I will definitely add the part about throwing things at me! Except she might get confused and throw the anchor at me... I have a life ring and throw rope on the railing.


Use a MOB pole or a MOM.

The life ring and throw line should be used after the vessel has returned to you and is stopped. A bunch of line in the water is an invitation to a fouled prop.


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## rnixon (May 7, 2013)

jackdale said:


> A bunch of line in the water is an invitation to a fouled prop.


Good point. I would also be a little concerned about a novice motoring around someone in the water. They may well need to use the engine to get back, but the propeller needs to be stopped once the 'victim' is close.

Roger


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

good grief. 
if you hold so little trust in your so, who, btw, would be your first , not second mate, then why do you consider sailing with her. 
do you know how to place a sailing boat into irons. 
that is best and easiest simplest situation to achieve, as well as to correct. currents will affect both participants in this drill, btw. . 
even folks without ability to understand conceptual thought can do this. you MUST keep eyes on the target. many forget this and lose track of location of target, generally in seas. . oops.
panic is not a most appropriate response or reaction to any situation in life. does she actually panic?? 
does she work for her living? if so, what does she do to earn her keep? 
perhaps her career choice will show how much basic ability she has of retaining information/.

i totally do not understand the mentation of males who actually believe they know women are weak and stupid and or simple. we are much stronger and a helluva lot more intelligent than you are capable of believing. 
btw-- did you measure your tether lengths and see that they do NOT reach over the side of your rail??? 
are your jacklines located centrally on your boat, or do they run along the toe rail. 
perhaps you should first assess your prevention measures, which are the most important parts of your mob system, and have dry run practice sessions before flinging yourself overboard to scare the living crap out of your lifes love so that her natural reaction would be panic. 
be real. 
before tossing self, toss nauseatingly many cushions. see if mebbe she isnt a lot smarter than are you for considering her simple.

number one thing to do when overboard occurs is SHUT DOWN ENGINE . geez what a buncha.......i correct my previous remark to include the observation that the so in question may just well be a lot more intelligent than i witness in you guys´ responses.


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

I agree with working on quickly starting the engine then stopping it when you're securely alongside. That gives your mate the best control practice that. Letting the sails loose presents the issue of keeping the main sheet from wrapping around the prop. I've found that a throw bag of reasonable weight is a great way to solve the problem of not being able to maneuver close enough. You can make or but these. A big problem even on small boats is getting you back on board. Need a device to help with that. Alternatively the mate could tie you off to a cleat and to you back to shore... just kidding.


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## rnixon (May 7, 2013)

zeehag said:


> i totally do not understand the mentation of males who actually believe they know women are weak and stupid and or simple. we are much stronger and a helluva lot more intelligent than you are capable of believing.


I do not believe that sex or intelligence is behind any of these comments - inexperience is. Anyone is capable of panicing in a life and death situation.


zeehag said:


> number one thing to do when overboard occurs is SHUT DOWN ENGINE


No. The number one thing is not to lose sight of the victim. Starting the engine is recommended by sailing schools.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

The only safe way to stop the prop from carving up the MOB while your SO is trying pick you up is to keep her distance. And it's easier picking up a person than a body.

One would assume that your SO can at least start the engine and drive the boat - it's way easier than driving a car and she/he can probably do that. It is very unlikely that the boat will be upwind of the MOB so motoring back into the wind even with sails up should be achievable, if not your engine needs looking at. Then what you need is a Life Sling which enables you to make contact with MOB without actually killing him. These devices are made in the USA so should be readily available - I live in NZ and I have one.

And I agree with two things said earlier in the thread - 1) rather than teaching your SO to recover you, teach yourself to stay on the boat and 2) don't kid yourself that you can swim to the boat you fell off of. By the time your SO gets the boat effectively anchored it will be too far away. And then all her other options are eliminated. And so are yours.

FYI I just spent a small fortune (for me) on mandatory MOB recovery equipment, I'm predicting all of it will still be unused when I eventually sell my boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jackdale said:


> That is exactly what instructors do. We teach novices to do 4 different MOB's; upwind and downwind under sail, Anderson and Williamson turns under power.


I'm missing something. How do you teach someone, who does not know how to sail, to sail back to a MOB? By definition, your students are trying to learn to sail, no?

A suggestion that the OP's SO learn to sail, sounds like a smashing idea. But I thought the premise was they didn't and the OP wanted to know what the next best idea was.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

If it's not heavy air and the boat is on the wind, and you have a life sling on the stern, teach crew to drop the sling in, then do the quick-stop, just circle up into the wind and make a slow (jibing) circle around you, leaving jib backed, so sheets don't need to be tended, just the tiller. Even if crew can't quite steer to you, you can grab the sling and pull yourself in. 

That way you're not risking propellor cuts, and with quick-stop, the boat stays near you.


Second idea: never fall overboard while going downwind, okay? too hard for your crew to do the quick-stop ;-)


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Quick stop and heave to aren't complex, should be second nature, we used to do while trolling at 6+ kts. I'd holler "Fish ON !" and go for the rod to get dinner on board while she grabbed the wheel and stopped the boat. If you can get an uncooperative Dorado on board it'll hone your skills towards retrieving a willing swimmer. And I'd be the last person to denigrate someone's sailing abilities based on gender, my father-in-law taught me to sail and I wasn't his first student.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

I've thought about this a lot since i only have a small 19 foot sail boat.

I was thinking of rigging a winch to the mast to crank someone aboard. But I decided what I need is a very small one man CO2 inflatable dinghy. The MOB(or POB actually), climbs easily into the inflatable. And they use that to climb up the ladder into my boat. And if they can't get into my boat, then they are out of the water(not an losing heat at 25 times air), AND i TOW THE DINGHY to land. 

OUT in the ocean: different world altogether.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Zarathu said:


> ....I was thinking of rigging a winch to the mast to crank someone aboard.....


If your plan includes block and tackle off the boom, that's a great idea. Just cranking them up over the gunnel would not work well and would more than likely further injure the victim.



> But I decided what I need is a very small one man CO2 inflatable dinghy. The MOB(or POB actually), climbs easily into the inflatable. And they use that to climb up the ladder into my boat. And if they can't get into my boat, then they are out of the water(not an losing heat at 25 times air), AND i TOW THE DINGHY to land.


This all assumes the victim is fully capable of rescuing themselves. Many will be injured in the event that put them overboard in the first place. Further, water temperature is a major factor here. This time of year, in New England's mid 50s water temps, a MOB would have no muscle dexterity to board a life raft or dinghy, by the time you got to them.

Nevertheless, I think this (MOM-9) is what you are looking for. I use the MOM-8, which has an inflatable horseshoe collar, rather than a single person raft.

Switlik MOM 9 Man Overboard Module


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## seabeau (Oct 5, 2014)

tschmidty said:


> So I have been thinking about MOB procedures on an upcoming trip with my SO. This will be the pamlico sound where the depths are pretty shallow < 50 ft almost certainly and a small 23 foot boat with outboard off the back (hard enough to get too and start for me) I am trying to think of the best way to instruct her on MOB procedures if I go overboard. I feel i need to keep it simple enough she can remember. This will not be at night and won't be particularly rough conditions. I know I will hear arguments against but essentially we are talking about single handing. So I see two scenarios.
> 
> 1. I fall off, will have inflatable life jacket and/or good physical fitness but she needs to stop the boat for me to get back on. What is the easiest way? I am thinking secondary anchor in the cockpit, bitter end already tied up front. toss it overboard (avoiding life lines, pulpits, etc.) and sheet sails in tight (remember shallow depths, 150' of line). With where we will be I have good faith the anchor will catch and hold. Ideally she will drop sails (just ran lines to cockpit and rigged topping lift so no sail on head) at that point. So hopefully boat stops and heads into wind.
> 
> ...


 I agree on scenario for beginner to stop or slow boat, throw anchor, drop sails.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> If your plan includes block and tackle off the boom, that's a great idea. Just cranking them up over the gunnel would not work well and would more than likely further injure the victim.
> 
> This all assumes the victim is fully capable of rescuing themselves. Many will be injured in the event that put them overboard in the first place. Further, water temperature is a major factor here. This time of year, in New England's mid 50s water temps, a MOB would have no muscle dexterity to board a life raft or dinghy, by the time you got to them.
> 
> ...


You can't use the boom on a west wight potter 19. It won't support the weight. If you want to get them aboard, you will have to get some kind of horseshoe, life sling over them, and winch them up the side of the hull, using the support of the mast.

Its a problem. Lots of people die because the other person on the boat can't get them *back into the boat*.Injured or not, you have to get them out of the water, even if the best you can do is winch them into a one man inflatable raft, and then tow the raft to land.

If they are unconscious, and you are the only other person on the sailboat, you are in deep doo doo no matter what in Northern New England.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Zarathu said:


> You can't use the boom on a west wight potter 19. It won't support the weight.


I'm not familiar with your boat. Is the boom supported by a topping lift? If so, I bet it would take much greater loads than the weight of a person and you could hang tackle right below it.



> If they are unconscious, and you are the only other person on the sailboat, you are in deep doo doo no matter what in Northern New England.


Absolutely.


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## tschmidty (Sep 25, 2008)

zeehag said:


> good grief.
> if you hold so little trust in your so, who, btw, would be your first , not second mate, then why do you consider sailing with her.


Because I want to share something I love with someone I love?



> do you know how to place a sailing boat into irons.
> that is best and easiest simplest situation to achieve, as well as to correct. currents will affect both participants in this drill, btw. .
> even folks without ability to understand conceptual thought can do this. you MUST keep eyes on the target. many forget this and lose track of location of target, generally in seas. . oops.


Putting it irons is essentially what I am talking about. Drop anchor, sheet sails in tight. In all of that I am assuming she would lose track of me.



> panic is not a most appropriate response or reaction to any situation in life. does she actually panic??
> does she work for her living? if so, what does she do to earn her keep?
> perhaps her career choice will show how much basic ability she has of retaining information/.
> 
> i totally do not understand the mentation of males who actually believe they know women are weak and stupid and or simple. we are much stronger and a helluva lot more intelligent than you are capable of believing.


Not sure what about my post implies that I think she is weak or stupid. She is an accomplished mountain bike racer and we have won many racers together as a duo. I am also very aware that when placed in situations where she is not comfortable or experienced she can become indecisive which is perfectly normal!



> btw-- did you measure your tether lengths and see that they do NOT reach over the side of your rail???
> are your jacklines located centrally on your boat, or do they run along the toe rail.
> perhaps you should first assess your prevention measures, which are the most important parts of your mob system, and have dry run practice sessions before flinging yourself overboard to scare the living crap out of your lifes love so that her natural reaction would be panic.
> be real.
> before tossing self, toss nauseatingly many cushions. see if mebbe she isn't a lot smarter than are you for considering her simple.


I have a 6 foot tether that i clip onto the front end of the cockpit and then onto an eye on the mast which allows me to reach the forestay. And I am not flinging myself overboard.



> number one thing to do when overboard occurs is SHUT DOWN ENGINE . geez what a buncha.......i correct my previous remark to include the observation that the so in question may just well be a lot more intelligent than i witness in you guys´ responses.


You still seem to think I am saying she is dumb, but I am talking about inexperience.

To other posters:

The MOB devices look very useful and something I will add to the list of things to get.

I definitely get the 'stay on the boat' idea. I have a swim ladder that can be reached from the water to reboard.

Sailing and motoring are all things we work on when we are out but I think having a basic procedure she can fall back on would be a good thing and thank to the other posters providing useful info.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I agree that getting an injured/unconscious person back aboard is a real concern. 
I too, have my vang configured to be removed and used as a recovery block and tackle.

In addition, SOS recently came out with this product, which I really like:
SOS Marine Recovery Ladder? - Man Overboard Retrieval

Zeehag:

You've been here a long time, and hold the respect or friendship of several people here but in this instance you are are completely out of line.
NO ONE in this thread has suggested that the OP's sailing partner was weak, or stupid or even made any consideration of her gender. This conversation has been limited to a discussion of equipment, her experience level and her desire (or possible lack of desire) to learn the necessary boat maneuvers to recover a lost person and the importance of keeping the OP onboard in the first place. The conversation has been quite neutral (without commenting on the quality or correctness of the advice given).

Don't project your misandry and insecurities onto those participating in this conversation. Frankly, I question the quality of advice being given by anyone (regardless of gender) who's been stuck in what appears to be a "perpetual refit" of a leaky teaky in Mexico. Maybe you have a lot of offshore miles and experience to share, but all I know is that the frequency of your posts and forum logins seem to indicate that you don't go anywhere, and that your advice no more or less valid than anything else being offered here.

The OP and other participants didn't deserve your snark and scorn but I figure that since we've already "done the time" that I may as well "do the crime" and air my thoughts.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Your inflatable tender can play a role in the recovery of an unconscious MOB. After securing the MOB to the vessel, move the tender along side and haul the MOB into the tender. You may be to partially deflate one side to make the procedure a little easier. Once they are out of the water you can can then explore options getting them on board.

In the cold water in which we sail you need to be careful when extricating some from the water. It does need to be done quickly. However, cold blood from the extremities can lead to a cardiac arrest. This is one downside to the use of a sling.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Zarathu said:


> You can't use the boom on a west wight potter 19. It won't support the weight. If you want to get them aboard, you will have to get some kind of horseshoe, life sling over them, and winch them up the side of the hull, using the support of the mast.





Minnewaska said:


> I'm not familiar with your boat. Is the boom supported by a topping lift? If so, I bet it would take much greater loads than the weight of a person and you could hang tackle right below it.


I have tested a variety of methods on my Catalina 22.

The Lifesling really works well. The circling maneuver eliminates all the need for a precise crew overboard figure-eight or whatever. Just toss the sling and circle. The line floats so you *probably* won't catch it in your prop if you're motoring. Probably.

The topping lift and boom on my 22' is plenty strong enough to haul a person aboard. We tried using the vang tackle to hoist a person over the side and that was kind of a pain due to the position of the vang and my lifelines. You could get a person up, but not over. It wouldn't work well on my boat with an unresponsive or injured person. We were doing the tests on flat water so the boom held still, but if you were in rough water and the boom was bouncing around I imagine the vang method would be even worse.

We also tried securing the boom to the split backstays using the pigtail that was in place from before I installed a topping lift. Then we used the mainsheet tackle to hoist a person up over the transom. This was a bit rough on the victim (me) since it kind of dragged me over the lip of the transom, but it got me on board. Again, we did this test on flat water. If it was rough the back of the boat may be bouncing a bit and it might not be a safe place to be.

It is important to note that with both the vang and mainsheet tackle a person of average strength (my wife) was easily able to lift a person of average weight (me).

We also tried using a spare halyard and a winch to lift the victim over the side of the boat. This has the benefits of lifting the person from the middle of the boat, which in rough weather is probably safer than the stern, and you have the height so you can get the person fully up and in the boat. There are three downsides to this method on a boat my size: 1) That's a lot of weight off the top of the mast, if you were in rough weather and got bounced over I can picture a person being enough weight to hold the boat over. 2) My winches aren't really designed to lift that much weight and they're not self-tailing, so it took some physical strength and manual dexterity to crank that hard. 3) We had to find the winch handle! It's a small boat, we don't normally use it!

We didn't really settle on a best method. Stay on the boat, I guess.

Also the Lifesling makes an great floaty toy. A hundred-and-sixty dollar floaty toy, but a great floaty toy.


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## Solar54 (May 9, 2015)

Simple two step process.

1. Always wear a harness.

2. Have SO learn sailing, motoring, and the multitude of MOB techniques in case someday you forget step # 1.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

Minnesail said:


> We also tried using a spare halyard and a winch to lift the victim over the side of the boat. This has the benefits of lifting the person from the middle of the boat, which in rough weather is probably safer than the stern, and you have the height so you can get the person fully up and in the boat. There are three downsides to this method on a boat my size: 1) That's a lot of weight off the top of the mast, if you were in rough weather and got bounced over I can picture a person being enough weight to hold the boat over. 2) My winches aren't really designed to lift that much weight and they're not self-tailing, so it took some physical strength and manual dexterity to crank that hard. 3) We had to find the winch handle! It's a small boat, we don't normally use it!
> .


I can make my own version of the life sling for about $40. I plan to do this.

My intent is to use a special 2500 lb lifting come-along winch, attached to a piece of steel attached to the hole in the mast that hods the baby stays. This is only about 5 feet from the step and so plenty strong at that point. Having the winch permanently attached there while sailing means that once the victim is along side, the can be winched up the side of the boat, or even if not all the way in, gotten enough out of the water that they can get into a tiny MOB raft along side of the boat. Since I have had two people standing on the side of the boat at that spot and it hasn't "gone over", I can't imagine having one would do it. Of course if they were out on the end of the boom, that kind of leverage could surely do it.

The winch can also do double duty as a back up for lifting up the 370lb steel dagger board if the regular mechanism were to fail. and many other things that could use a winch.

There is no room on the transom since there are two motors and a rudder back there.

Of course all of this has to be tried in the water, and to do that, I need to find someone with a wet-suit, who is young(like 45 years younger than me) to try it all out.

In the mean time, I am looking at ways to clip people in, and with roller furling jib and slugs in the mainsail slot, I see no reason to go forward or up on deck while sailing.


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## wrwakefield (Nov 18, 2015)

Rescue is very important, but I would advocate that the practice of focusing on efforts, methods, techniques, and attention to staying on board in all circumstances is even more so. 

Train yourself to think of the edge of the deck as a 500 foot cliff and your habits will change... and your initial efforts will be spent in a more productive, proactive manner yielding immediate results for your described situation.

This is immediately within your reach and would provide more time for your crew to learn, gain experience, and practice the skills necessary for POB recovery. 

I'm confident you could accomplish some failsafe protocols for stay aboard in time to enjoy this sailing season, and greatly lessen the stress the less experienced may feel.

In hopes this is helpful.

Cheers!

Bill


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

wrwakefield said:


> Rescue is very important, but I would advocate that the practice of focusing on efforts, methods, techniques, and attention to staying on board in all circumstances is even more so.
> 
> Train yourself to think of the edge of the deck as a 500 foot cliff and your habits will change...
> 
> Bill


Yeah had 3 weeks of the CGAux course reminding me that the warmest the water temps get is about 55, and that if I fall in the water I have a really good chance of dying. And since the people I sail with are all OLD, no matter how good my MOB skills might be, they will suffer serious hypothermia with even 10 minutes in the water. Had an emergency medicine physician who spent 20 years in Alaska doing most of the telling.

Harnesses are de rigor for US, I'm afraid.

My boat is only 19 feet long. I don't really have much of a "deck", unless you consider the 6 inches below the cabin a "deck"!


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Everyone approaches this serious topic in their own way. I appriciate the good ideas that posters have shared here. In my boat, if I'm sailing with no other experienced sailors, I use my tether. I figure that other people can slow the boat and haul me in. In rough water, the chances are really bad no matter what. In calm water, being tethered is probably better odds than being left behind. I might die in the process because of being pulled by my tether, but my odds are better than watching the boat sail away. That's my take on it. Obviously the point is to not go overboard. "One hand for the ship, one hand for yourself," is a saying that my Dad drilled into me, and I've passed it on to my wife, kids, and grandkids. Falling overboard is deadly.

I do believe that in MOB situations, stopping the boat as quickly as possible is crucial - along with keeping a watch on the person in the water. MOB drills make a lot of sense.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

Scotty C-M said:


> , being tethered is probably better odds than being left behind. I might die in the process because of being pulled by my tether, but my odds are better than watching the boat sail away.


I have a friend who was unexpectedly knocked down. And in the process the rudder became disconnected from the boat. Despite the fact that his friend was an experienced sailor, the boat simply righted itself and sailed away without him. If he'd been tethered to the the boat the friend would have hauled him in. Even though he was only about 75 yards from shore at the time, he had to swim for shore in 55 degree water. He barely made it alive.

Now he has tethers to the boat even in calm weather, with connections all over the boat.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

On our Thursday night Regatta I see more and more people wearing inflatables, I require some (minors mostly) to wear when outside the cockpit. People will follow a lead if its presented to them, take that for what its worth. 

I've always heard the worst place to be is overboard on a downwind leg and the last Boat in an ocean race, add some weather and Nobody can get back to you, within a reasonable time anyway. Maybe an urban legend but I've also heard if a solo sailor is found after having fallen off more times than not his fly is open. Use the head onboard.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

"In the mean time, I am looking at ways to clip people in, and with roller furling jib and slugs in the mainsail slot, I see no reason to go forward or up on deck while sailing. "

Many reasons you will end up on deck while sailing, halyard jams, furling line jams, jib sheet gets caught during a tack, putting in/out fenders.....


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## eko_eko (Sep 7, 2012)

My father and his GF at the time taught us to do MOB pickup when we were kids. We'd drill it all the time, using milk jugs as the "victims." It's not that hard to learn, and you can even use it to recover your hat when it blows off.

I'm always tethered unless I'm below. It's rare that I'd sail with someone who can lift me out of the water. Stay on the boat.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

Ajax_MD said:


> I agree that getting an injured/unconscious person back aboard is a real concern.
> I too, have my vang configured to be removed and used as a recovery block and tackle.
> 
> In addition, SOS recently came out with this product, which I really like:
> ...


the op did in the ops original posting. didnt you read it?? so little trust in his alleged partner, even to the point of insulting her intelligence.

you have learned a fine art of combining bullying with uneducated drivel. perhaps you should learn to read. 
as for cruising--cruising is defined as repair of boat in exotic locales. the mexican riviera, pacific coast , is a desired locale for cruisers, in case you havent checked it out. 
your info is much lacking in expertise and education. \perhaps you need to leave your desk and actually sail. you may learn something. maybe.

in irons is not anchored. it is drifting with current without intentional forward motion. no anchor. just adrift in a situation in which one requires a short stop in a body of water. very easy to accomplish and very easy to regain momentum while engaged. it is used to pick a fishie out of water, it is used for picking a body out of water, and for swimming while becalmed and other unintended or intended reasons.

as for insecurities--the only misanthrope verbalizing insecurities is ajax, who cannot leave his desk long enough to learn what cruising is all about. only thing i see is a desire to further bully those of us out here doing stuff he cannot do for whatever insecurity he possesses. how long you been trying to learn to sail??? 
as for not going anywhere--i gather you see no pictures of locales as signs of travel. perhaps your screensaver is adrift... 
btw--what is your definition of cruising?? you surely have no experience at it.

IFF the op wishes to remain on his boat, he WILL place centerline jacklines and use tethers appropriately measured so as to keep him body on the boat and not be dragged. but. then everyone knows that already. and he WILL use them every time he wishes to pee overboard.
i KNOW you have not read the posts of this thread as you state that NO ONE mentioned this before, which proves you donot read the postings in the thread. have a great misanthropic day.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

If you replaced she with he and her with him in the OP, would it read like he was insulting the intelligence of a male buddy?


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> If you replaced she with he and her with him in the OP, would it read like he was insulting the intelligence of a male buddy?


yes it does. demeans and insults intelligence. PANIC, inability to understand concepts?? 
yes it does. 
that is why i answered in the manner in which i responded. 
AFTER having read the contents multiple times.

and had ajax read my comment in full, he´d-a seen that i defended the poor bashed so in stating she would prolly show HIM how... helps to read postings in full, instead of immediately bashing upon seeing the name of poster.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Wife said she wanted to learn to sail from pros on our boat. Hired husband wife team. They taugh her figure eight. It was a JOKE. In 10-15 with 2-4ft. running and bright orange or yellow objects after multiple attempts they, not her, were totally unable to recover floating objects goosed overboard. This occurred with three people on deck knowing when the object was thrown, on what side in clear conditions.
Rule one- no mobs
Rule two- throw anything that floats over the side. If it's mob module then that goes first.
Rule three- hit mob button then mob float module
Rule four - stop boat- irons or neutral if under power.
Rule five - get downwind down current any way you can. Drop sails and power or sail there. Engine is better. If not heavy air leave sails up just throw sheets. Then approach mob carefully.
Rule six - go to mob stern first from down wind/current when you get there. When close go to neutral and stay in neutral. Then throw life sling or similar device. Recover mob over sugar scoop, outboard engine hoist, dinghy davits, or block and tackle from boom. What ever works but practice it to make sure it works. 
Rule seven -don't crush or drown mob drifting over them from windward. Think about tons of smooth boat with no hand holds rising and falling on your cold, weak and wet mob. Even if alert just scary in a moderate sea.

Realize everyone should be taught to immediately go into irons if tethered person goes over. Even buff, fit kids drown being towed with tether on. Teach every one to put tether on harness correctly and practice the quick release. 

Think what's being taught is just dead wrong. Reality is in mob circumstance biggest problems are finding the d- mn person and getting them onboard. Father away you get from them harder both are. Even with personal AIS and such these two are the killers. All the taught sailing maneuvers put more distance between boat and mob. All take more time with greater likihood of hypothermia and likihood of losing sight of mob. Bogus except in clear days and flat seas.

We have practiced mob at night with a sea running using junk fenders. Quite an eye openner. Only successful attempt was with engine as described above.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

keep em on boat and not have to do mob in reality.

centerline jacklines, not along the toe rails. donot be dragged 
donot fall overboard in reality.
avoidance is better prep than is retrieval. 
retrieval is good for your sailing hat in a calm and peaceful bay.


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## tschmidty (Sep 25, 2008)

zeehag said:


> yes it does. demeans and insults intelligence. PANIC, inability to understand concepts??
> yes it does.
> that is why i answered in the manner in which i responded.
> AFTER having read the contents multiple times.
> ...


I'll just say one more time that in no way did i insult her intelligence or bash her in any way and I don't recall anyone else doing so either.

I will once again thank the posters with useful suggestions and unsubscribe from this thread to avoid reading the off topic and unhelpful replies.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

TS hope you are reading this. Stick around. You asked a good question. This pc stuff gets in the way. There are realities. My wife is 100 lbs 4' 10". It's not sexist to confront we need to do things differently. She gets it done. That's all that matters. I can pick her up. She cannot pick me up. She knows how to use the dinghy engine hoist. So what. My 7 y.o. Grandson was taught to stop the boat, hit the mob button, use the VHF and horn to get help. So what. Is that ageist. I don't understand why this went off topic. Seems on topic now.


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## sandy stone (Jan 14, 2014)

wrwakefield had the right idea. In reality, a reasonably skilled crew will have a tough time getting back to a MOB and getting them aboard before it's too late. Bad weather or cold water makes it that much worse. An unskilled single person in an extremely stressful situation is going to have a very tough time, MOB module, Lifesling, or whatever. If you want to stay alive, concentrate on staying on the boat, whatever it takes. Just as if you were singlehanding.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

zeehag said:


> the op did in the ops original posting. didnt you read it?? so little trust in his alleged partner, even to the point of insulting her intelligence.
> 
> you have learned a fine art of combining bullying with uneducated drivel. perhaps you should learn to read.


(followed by wishes for a misanthropic day etc.)

Honestly, I am lost here.

Below is the full and unedited text of the original post. Where do you see any insult of female intelligence in the text? The poster expresses (in the title) that his SO is inexperienced and that he is looking for a simple solution that she can remember even under extreme stress.

Am I missing some subtlety here?

*
MOB Procedure with an inexperienced 2nd mate*
So I have been thinking about MOB procedures on an upcoming trip with my SO. This will be the pamlico sound where the depths are pretty shallow < 50 ft almost certainly and a small 23 foot boat with outboard off the back (hard enough to get too and start for me) I am trying to think of the best way to instruct her on MOB procedures if I go overboard. I feel i need to keep it simple enough she can remember. This will not be at night and won't be particularly rough conditions. I know I will hear arguments against but essentially we are talking about single handing. So I see two scenarios.

1. I fall off, will have inflatable life jacket and/or good physical fitness but she needs to stop the boat for me to get back on. What is the easiest way? I am thinking secondary anchor in the cockpit, bitter end already tied up front. toss it overboard (avoiding life lines, pulpits, etc.) and sheet sails in tight (remember shallow depths, 150' of line). With where we will be I have good faith the anchor will catch and hold. Ideally she will drop sails (just ran lines to cockpit and rigged topping lift so no sail on head) at that point. So hopefully boat stops and heads into wind.

2. Secondary and probably in combination to this I have a cheat sheet next to the VHF for a distress call. I think it would be best to tell her to make this call unless I am right next to the boat and imminently boarding. I can always cancel if I get back soon enough.

Of course it'd be great if she could just round up,come about and pop into a heave to position 5 feet downwind of me but being realistic what else should i be instructing a novice to do in this sort of situation? I could conceivably provide a longer checklist for a longer duration situation but trying to not complicate things too much (and yes I know how that sounds). The point is to keep her (the SO or the boat, hmm...) out of danger at that point more so than myself.

So...thoughts?


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

In response to the OP:

Yes, keep it simple. True for all of us, both men and women.

1. Emergency anchor can be kept on the stern/stern rail. Don't keep it in the cockpit, it will get in the way.
2. Yes, a placard on the radio makes sense. I've thought that I should do the same. I'll get to it.

To repeat myself (and others): Keep on the boat. Your lives depend on it.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

regarding safety harnesses:

http://www.sailingbreezes.com/sailing_breezes_current/articles/May07/harness.htm


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Wife read this thread. She pointed out my prior post is misleading. She pointed out after she throws floatable, hits mob button throws mob module, she will take a breath for a second. Then decide do the circle, flog drift down, do engine. She appropiately says it depends on circumstance. If she is alone on the boat or is there other crew, sea and wind, point of sail. She is smart. Understands the principle. Don't lose contact with mob. Get them as quickly as possible on the boat. She is fully aware of danger of prop and the boat striking the mob.
We have both dived the boat to do the bottom and get rid of waterline grass. There is no chance either of us could self board over the side. Will require winch work. We have run through using halyard amidship and recovery over the stern. Every design is different but think for most modern cruisers recovery over the stern is less fraught with difficulty. 
Of interest is Sail June 2016 pp.22 article. Good read on a variation of OPs concern.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

YES watch out for props! Back of my left calf is a good example of what can happen when propeller meets flesh!


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm missing something. How do you teach someone, who does not know how to sail, to sail back to a MOB? By definition, your students are trying to learn to sail, no?
> 
> A suggestion that the OP's SO learn to sail, sounds like a smashing idea. But I thought the premise was they didn't and the OP wanted to know what the next best idea was.


Err yes. In order to sail back one has to know how. In order to motor back one has to know how. In order to respond one has to know how.

Usually day two on a basic sailing course.
Shortly after learning interesting names for bits of a boat, how to hoist sails, points of sail, how to tack, gybe and drop and stow sails on day one.
Day two how to heave to, reef, practice putting all together MOB.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Z-

I stand by my comments. You can deride me for my desk jockey time all you like, the only difference between us is that you're in Mexico and I'm where I am. Neither of us go very far, and your "rant" was not advice. It was a PC, feminist screed directed at the OP for what I consider a pretty neutral post.

I definitely don't care if I meet your very narrow definition of "cruising." Coming from someone who's been broken down and stuck in Mexico since I've come to this forum years ago, your definition doesn't carry a lot of weight with me.

I did spend the weekend launching my new-to-me, Tartan 33 that is quite dry, and ready to sail, so hopefully I'll be away from the keyboard soon, and for a considerable time.


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

How to respond to an MOB, or how to start an argument.
I can't say I have ever taught my wife how to recover a MOB, she is quite simply not interested in learning how to sail. At least not from me. She enjoys sailing, so long as I refrain from teaching. 
The funny thing is. She is actually quite good at it. She knows how to sail. She knows how to sail back and recover her hat. She will go back for her hat, the dog , one of the kids. Me I'm not so sure.

Best thing to do is not worry to much and don't over think it. Or over state it.
Make sure falling off is strictly against policy. 
Go over the basics of not falling off. One hand for boat one for self, beware of booms, particularly loose booms, avoid going past a loose boom. Walk on the high side. Keep your weight low, and don't pee overboard under way.
Wear a life jacket if you like. I would suggest a harness any time you leave the cockpit if MOB is a concern. Don't fall over board.

After ensuring precautions taken to not fall off .

Show her where the radio is ch 16 and how to call for help. She knows boats name description, If you have a GPS show her how to read and give position. otherwise make sure you keep her up to date with where you are and where you are going. (a small hand held in cockpit?)

I hear Mayday followed by person in water. I respond as will anyone in area. You recover without assistance all well and good. We can stand down and go about our day. If not the sooner help arrives the better.

As for the rest. What's the best method? The one you practice. If you don't practice don't expect it to work.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

jackdale said:


> Two methods that involve heaving-to. They can be done by one person. The downwind method is a bit harder to do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dropping you instructor hat for a moment, do you really think showing this to a non sailor would help? I have a feeling it would make things worse.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Ninefingers said:


> Dropping you instructor hat for a moment, do you really think showing this to a non sailor would help? I have a feeling it would make things worse.


I'm still a pretty novice sailor, I've been through ASA 101, but there isn't enough practice in ASA 101 to get anyone really anything more but familiar with the idea of MOB. Throw flotation device, don't lose sight, but if you are letting out the sails and dropping them, that's not feasible.

MOB is a situation that terrifies me also because of the panic involved. We sail in pretty cold waters. There may not be a lot of time to get back to my husband and if he can't get himself in, what would I do? He is 6ft7in and 230 lbs. dry. I'm strong but not that strong. These diagrams made my eyes glaze over, I'm sorry. A novice would be overwhelmed by that.

I agree the best idea is to let out the main and jib, drop sails, or just start the engine if you have one, and go back. This, I think, is doable for any one. Everyone can learn to start an engine. Then try to get MOB in - hopefully conscious and able to move.

I like the idea of the only knowledgeable sailor wearing a harness. But I have a vivid imagination of disastrous scenarios, so I'm for the safest thing always.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

zeehag said:


> yes it does. demeans and insults intelligence. PANIC, inability to understand concepts??
> yes it does.
> that is why i answered in the manner in which i responded.
> AFTER having read the contents multiple times.
> ...


I might panic. I think a lot of men would panic. It's life and death and the vast majority of people with no sailing experience, when the sailor goes overboard, would panic.

I don't care what sex you are.


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

When it comes to an emergency, despite the images Hollywood likes to portray.
People rarely panic. Almost all will go into a bit of a shock. Most behaviour is instinctive rather than thought out or planned.
A small percentage will run or fight. the vast majority will do little or nothing. waiting for someone to tell them what to do. Most will not think clearly. 
When an emergency happens, figuring out how to do something is just not likely to work well.

The military. emergency responders, people who work in hazardous jobs. Practice emergency response. To make it instinctive. A trained response becomes an instinctive response. 

Pick a method you like practice a few times. it will help. if ever needed. Then think about and take precautions to prevent ever needing to respond.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Ninefingers said:


> Dropping you instructor hat for a moment, do you really think showing this to a non sailor would help? I have a feeling it would make things worse.


Would showing the diagram help? Not much.

Demonstrating on a boat and then practicing does help. After 25 years of doing so with at least 1000 MOB drills, I would say yes.

BTW - I have found a couple of boats on which this does not work well. Any boat with a self-tacking jib and a Leopard 44 (it did work well on a Lagoon 380).


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Nancyleeny said:


> I agree the best idea is to let out the main and jib, drop sails, or just start the engine if you have one, and go back. This, I think, is doable for any one. Everyone can learn to start an engine. Then try to get MOB in - hopefully conscious and able to move.
> 
> .


In doing so, you will lose sight of the MOB, especially if single-handing.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Jack you're spot on. That's the bear in the bedroom. Losing sight of mob. In doing the circle under sail or power wife always looked forward, at least briefly, seemed instinctual. Couldn't break the reflex. Bending down to put on the engine took a few seconds and she lost sight of mob. Even throwing anything over took a few seconds. Surprisingly even deploying the mob unit was a several second distraction. Enough the target was lost. At 7-8kts. a few seconds is quite a bit of distance 
So big fan of the inflatable pole devices with or without raft. Hope is mob will be able to swim to that. Once did a sharp turn in the dinghy to miss what turned out to be a child's water toy that got away. Was on plane so went over. Surprised how hard it was to find my floating hat or even the dinghy. Once sorted out took 1/2h to find the hat. That was in middle of the day with no current in north sound going Saba to leverick. So think the pole is a good target for the mob as well.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

outbound said:


> So big fan of the inflatable pole devices with or without raft. Hope is mob will be able to swim to that. Once did a sharp turn in the dinghy to miss what turned out to be a child's water toy that got away. Was on plane so went over. Surprised how hard it was to find my floating hat or even the dinghy. Once sorted out took 1/2h to find the hat. That was in middle of the day with no current in north sound going Saba to leverick. So think the pole is a good target for the mob as well.


We do our training with MOB/COB pole. That helps ingrain the need to get a datum point near the person in the water. At night I attach a strobe light to the pole.

All of my crew / students are required to be tethered in rough weather, night, offshore. They are required to use strobe lights.

I have not yet had a chance to test out a personal AIS, but they seem promising.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

jackdale said:


> In doing so, you will lose sight of the MOB, especially if single-handing.


I know! So how do you let the sails out, maybe get them down, start the engine, all while watching the MOB?????


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

In an ideal situation.
You have lots of crew. One person can be tasked with just pointing at the casualty in the water. An other person can handle the radio& communication. While the rest of the crew handle the boat and get ready for the recovery. While the skipper coordinates every thing. So minimum crew about 4.
A sailing course tends to have many hands. and eyes.

Well forget about all that you are on your own now because your buddy just fell off. Unfortunately your buddy was the experienced sailor.

If you are the only person left on board you are going to have to take your eye off the casualty to do a multitude of things. 
If you drop a marker right away. you have a reference to spot the casualty again.
If you have a MOB button on GPS or Plotter. Pressing this will give a reference.
If you are on your own Calling for help right away. Could make the difference between life and death.

If you know how to heave to. Doing so you will stay in vicinity. while sorting things out.

Now you can start to respond. Back to top of the list can you see the casualty.
Deploy a marker. 
Press MOB button.
Call for help. 
I'd start engine, not everyone would. drop swim ladder. get life sling ready.
Sails, depends on boat. and your plan. 
Furl fore sail sheet main in hard. engine on and motor back to casualty will work on most boats.

Getting back close to casualty stop engine, let casualty come to you. ideal if casualty is not hypothermic or unconscious.
You will be very lucky if casualty can get back and climb a swim ladder. 

If not tow life sling around casualty head into wind, out of gear or better yet shut down. 

Inflatable Dingy might help. I have a life raft. I would use it. if it helps me save someone. It was cheep. 

I've used parbuckle with a rib to get a casualty out of water. 
Improvised parbuckle three lines, shoulders, hips & legs.
Better premade with netting between lines.
A couple of marina warps round a inflatable dingy grab line? Will make an effective parbuckle. 

Lots of different. ways to do it. If inexperienced and alone. which one first.

Call for help.
Then
Call for Help.
Then 
Call for Help.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Nancyleeny said:


> I know! So how do you let the sails out, maybe get them down, start the engine, all while watching the MOB?????


In an upwind MOB I do not touch the sails, start the engine or take my eyes off the MOB. They are always in sight.

Downwind I will lose sight when I come about.

In both cases an MOB pole would have been deployed and the MOB button on the chartplotter would have been employed.


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## newt (Mar 15, 2008)

This has been a expansive thread, and Jack showed his instructor side well. One more thing I might add. I am usually against dragging a dingy- it just seems to slow down the process. * But*... what if you trailed a dink on a long painter? If you went overboard you would have a pretty good chance of grabbing the dink. Esp if you are only going 2-3 knots, which seems like to me the average speed of those sailing with a dink behind them. 
Just a thought. Probably will be flamed by more knowledgeable types here.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

newt said:


> This has been a expansive thread, and Jack showed his instructor side well. One more thing I might add. I am usually against dragging a dingy- it just seems to slow down the process. * But*... what if you trailed a dink on a long painter? If you went overboard you would have a pretty good chance of grabbing the dink. Esp if you are only going 2-3 knots, which seems like to me the average speed of those sailing with a dink behind them.
> Just a thought. Probably will be flamed by more knowledgeable types here.


Until somebody gets hit by the dink doing 3 knots and now you have an unconscious MOB....
That's also hoping somebody can get oriented and over the initial shock of going overboard AND have enough time to try to swim to grab something. Pretty hard unless the dink is a couple hundred yards back.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

newt said:


> what if you trailed a dink on a long painter?


I have a friend (another instructor) who sails a heavy wooden ketch. He keeps a very sharp knife in the cockpit with instructions to cut the painter if he falls overboard. He can then self-rescue himself.


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## newt (Mar 15, 2008)

Tanski said:


> Until somebody gets hit by the dink doing 3 knots and now you have an unconscious MOB....
> That's also hoping somebody can get oriented and over the initial shock of going overboard AND have enough time to try to swim to grab something. Pretty hard unless the dink is a couple hundred yards back.


I was actually thinking of my soft inflatable dink. They make the best sea anchors . I have also seen it done with a bumper. Just saying:
He's going out with his wife to sail, not to passage make.
They are going to go in good conditions (I hope) not too much swell or wind. (at least I wouldn't with my wife when she was new)
In this situation, trailing a float-able object may not be such a bad idea.
BTW, I do have experience in this. When the winds would die down, my kids would swing off the halyards into the ocean, swim to the line behind the boat and then up the ladder and do it again. We did not do it past 2 knots however. But even I did it- and will do it again. Perfect if you can teach you SO to heave to quickly.
Bottom line- 50 percent mortality if you fall in on watch. So tie in!


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## newt (Mar 15, 2008)

jackdale said:


> I have a friend (another instructor) who sails a heavy wooden ketch. He keeps a very sharp knife in the cockpit with instructions to cut the painter if he falls overboard. He can then self-rescue himself.


That's a good idea Jack. Had not thought of that angle. Would it work with just a big bumper and a slipknot? (less resistance to the sail)


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Great discussion. Every idea has merit, because every situation will be different. Different wind, waves, visibility, people, boat, etc. The most we can do is prepare the boat, practice, and pray.

Most of my sailing is in cold water (Santa Cruz, CA) so that colors my thinking. Going into the water is in itself deadly serious. I know from personal experience how hard it is to get onto a dink or onto the boat from cold water. At 67 years old, I don't have the strength that I once had, so I've got a block and tackle on the outboard lift rigged and ready to go in case I have to pull someone out. I have a lifesling and floatation rigged at all times. I bought a boat with a swim step specifically for this reason. Yesterday my wife and I went sailing in about 11-13 knots of wind. She fell asleep (such a mellow day), so I hooked on my tether. I teather when I'm short handed (or alone) when the conditions are turbulent, and at night. I require all hands to tether during storm conditions and at night. When sailing with my wife, I'm usually tethered. I don't trust the thing, but it's my plan so that she can stop the boat if I am hanging over the side. If I leave the cockpit I act like my life depends on it. It does. I have a two lead tether so that I can walk (hooked in) along my jack lines, which are along the side decks. A center jack line just isn't practical on my boat. I walk along the windward side unless there is a problem on the leeward. If I walk leeward side, I'm super cautious, even in light (or especially?) wind. When I get to where I'm working on the deck (again hopefully the weather side) I use the second line of my teather to attach to a point where if I take a spill, I'll stay on the boat. I've used that system since I was a kid racing CCA in San Francisco in the 60's. I'm so used to it that it seems natural. I read the link about tethers (from Zrarthu) http://www.sailingbreezes.com/sailin...07/harness.htm and agree that they are killers if you are dragged, but we all have to make our decisions as to what gives us the best chance. In gentle conditions, yes, we can circle around, or swim to a dingy etc. In rough conditions, short handed, not so easily. That's why I choose to stay attached to the boat. Circumstances are different on a fully crewed boat, but then again the chances are that the crew can grab you before you drown or get knocked against the boat! Tough decisions, but I still think my chances are better if attached to the boat.

I've been lucky. In over 60 years of sailing I've only had man overboards in small boats in gentle winds when getting to the person was really easy. In my practices during heavier conditions, the one thing that I've noticed is how easy it is to loose sight of something in the water, and how it takes a while to get back. That is why my perfered method is to throw the MOB Pole and floatation, and stop the boat immediately &#8230; first thing (dump the sails or heave to).

Thanks for the interesting discussion. Prepare, practice, pray.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

Whatever you MOB procedure you decide on, you must practice, practice, practice. Make it your practice to practice every time you go sailing.

Start by tossing milk jugs or other disposable floaters, then retrieving them. Then toss costlier items, like boat cushions. Practice different procedures so that you can be the judge of what works best for you. Practice until you don't have to think much and things just happen automatically. That will lessen the panic mode when you are in an emergency situation. Finally, have people jump overboard and retrieve them.

Here are a few things that I have learned:

- USCG-approved cushions are better than the long, thin bench cushions. Always have a few within reach.

- I have a bright orange cushion that stays in one spot always and I don't allow anybody to sit on in or lean against it. 

- The COB will be more visible if he/she holds a brightly-colored cushion up vertically and facing the boat.

- On my boat it is generally faster to sail to the COB than it is to deploy the motor, start the motor, etc.

- Practicing in calm conditions makes it seem easy. I've lost a few cushions by practicing with them in rough conditions. That's when I decided to use tethers when sailing in rough conditions, but more importantly, try to avoid sailing in rough conditions. I don't have anything to prove. If I'm smiling at the end of the day, I've won.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Know I'm going to catch a lot of static for this but here it goes. On this thread there's general agreement the first rule for MOB is "stay on the boat". Given that realize some boats are designed for it to be more likely you will stay on the boat and some are not.

To take it to extremes you can have Vestas running along at 65 knots with nets to run across no possibility of Jack lines, nothing on the perimeter of the boat or the deep small cockpit the BWB with a house to hid behind chugging along at 6.5knots while you're tied in behind your safety lines. You can have the twin wheels and open stern with unprotected helms and a football field as cockpit sole or single wheel with an actual seat behind you. You can have lines run below deck so no need for granny bars or granny bars with an actual seat to curl in to or grab or clip. You can have no spray hood or a hard dodger. The list goes on and on.

If you have enough money you can buy a street car that would not be shamed in F1. But if you're inattentive for a moment in your daily commute you have no buffer as you are zooming along. If you're smart there's a point you realize your reflexes are not that sharp, you attention cannot be 100% 100% of the time, you endurance flags so even if you have one its a track car not your daily driver. 

But with boats as design and technology advances a similar choice is available. Just like cars marketing pressures cause the LOOK of go fast features to be incorporated in some designs decreasing safety in conditions of boarding seas, increasing human fatigue and inattention, not allowing safe moving around the decks or even the cockpit whilst holding on to a support and being continuously tied in. The fast LOOK of a wedged house rising up no higher than your ankles seems sleek. Where are the reachable handholds? 

I've mentioned this in other threads. The faster the boat, the more open the boat, the fewer handholds, the less protection from structure- the greater likelihood you will washed over or fall then go over. I was accused of lauding my own boat, of being a fuddyduddy, dealing in unlikely scenarios. In short not being with the program. Also I have nothing like the experience of many posting here but I have been mashed into the granny bars, steering wheel, across the cockpit, into the stern most seat, down on to the bridge deck by boarding seas. I ve momentarily lost my focus and nearly lost my balance more times than I can count only to be saved by grabbing on to something. I have much great endurance and attention when totally or at least partial out of the wind and spray.

In MOB or SOS discussions the basic features of a safe boat are not mentioned enough IMHO.

So ok rip me apart . I'll take my lumps.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I have no lumps to offer outbound. Well spoken.

I have not read every post in this thread so I will risk repeating what may have been said already.

You cannot manage your own rescue. You have to depend on those aboard.

Those of you who know me will not be surprised that I start with a story.

Last week I accidentally went swimming. We were at the dock. Winds light and variable and not a factor. It is June in Annapolis. The circumstances may be entertaining. We/I rigged a large fender horizontally so I could climb down and repair a fitting on the hull while sitting on the fender. I could get down but could not climb up alone. As planned our biggest strongest crew reached down to haul me up. We lost our grip on one another and I went swimming. Surprised, wet, quickly cold my focus was on staying afloat. In my case there was no panic. It took a while for the people on board to get sorted out and they tried a couple of things to get me up six or seven feet to the deck. We finally gave up and I swam around to the dock (only four feet up but no ladders) and heaved me up.

While the guys were working on ways to recover me I had some time to think. *sigh* I am convinced that trying to manage rescue operations from the water is not a good idea. In the context of this thread, the key is to stay on the boat. Your crew MUST be prepared to recover you without your guidance and possibly without your assistance at all.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Outboard is correct: design for safety. Common sense.
Auspicious is correct: getting out of the water is (can be) a huge deal.

May I add: Even good planning goes awry. Plan for safety, but know that sometimes you just have to do the best you can.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

I have followed this topic on many forums, and I have come to the following conclusions:

1. Almost all of the descriptions for what do to apply only to BIG Boats, where you can winch the POB on board using the BOOM. A small boat of 15-26 feet often doesn't have a boom that is strong enough to bring a 200+lb wet person on-board. I have a 19 foot boat. The boom cannot do this without capsizing the boat.

2. Most of the scenarios take place in waters that are above 60 degrees, where the person can stay in the water for at least 45 minutes before they become incapacitated. The water where I sail gets to about 53 degrees at the warmest time in summer. it is not unusual to hear of people who drowned from hypothermia attached to the side of the boat, where the other person on the boat simply could not get them out of the water.

3. LIFE-SLING, the most advertised technique is easy to connect to the overboard person, but nearly impossible to get the person on board in *a small pocket cruiser*, when there is only one other person to do it, and there is no winch.

4. If you are off shore or not close to shore, within a mile or two, then you need to be in a big enough boat that you can winch the POB back onto the boat.

So.....

For a small pocket cruiser like mine, never more than 3 miles from shore, I have come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is to trail a tiny one person hikers dinghy on a polypropylene rope with knots in it for easy grabbing. Passengers or crew know that it is back there skimming along on the surface. When you swing around as in the life sling approach, they grab on and get on it as much as possible. Then, I would simply motor as fast as possible to shore, and get them out of the water.

I do have a come along winch attached permanently to the mast about 5 feet up, which might(repeat might) be able to pull the person on board. If they are not incapacitated, they could climb up the ladder from the dinghy on the port side of the boat.

The key is to get them reconnected to the boat and as much out of the water as possible. Water drains heat from a body at 25 times the rate of air. Just getting their torso on to the raft would help a lot.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Zarathu makes a good point. I've thought that it is interesting to see the gear used for big wave surfing. Jet skis are used to pick up surfers. Behind the ski is a sled - a long (about 6') floating foam sheet with handles. The surfer climbs, or is helped, onto the sheet of foam then taken to safety. I've thought that on a smaller boat, a large boogie board could be trailed directly attached to the stern. If someone goes into the water, they could climb onto the foam. Then it gives the boat time to organize how to get them back abroad. I've imagined how such a "recovery board" could be stowed. I don't know if this is practical, but the idea is intriguing. 

When I was fishing on a purse seiner, I could land a huge tuna (hundreds of pounds) onto the ship. How? Timeing. The roll of the boat, combined with the wave action and a good hard pull, could "pop" the fish into the ship. I know that in small boats, grabbing the person and timeing the pull/jump, and the person slides back into the boat. I've done it. It doesn't always work, but it does sometimes.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

Scotty C-M said:


> I know that in small boats, grabbing the person and timing the pull/jump, and the person slides back into the boat. I've done it. It doesn't always work, but it does sometimes.


Sound like a great idea...if you have a low freeboard. and of course there is potential of internal injuries from slamming them on the the boat.

Unfortunately, I do not. However, the permanently attached winch, while maybe not good enough to get the person on-board, could certainly get them on to the board you mentioned or the small one person dinghy which I mentioned.

If you can get them out of the water and onto something that floats, even if its not the boat, their survival potential is increased dramatically to the point that the are probably home free. It would store in the cabin, and could hang on the starboard or port side when motoring.

This boogie board is 41 inches long and only costs $50:

https://www.amazon.com/Cloudnine-Bo...466184852&sr=1-13&keywords=boogie+board+beach


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## ed211 (Mar 1, 2016)

you guys are over complicating the situation. Just harness up while sailing and on deck. anchor/moor/dock for the night remove harness Bam.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Z- if that's your concern get an exposure suit. Not a gumby but the type the oil crews wear. Hands and feet are not enclosed but there are pull straps so little no water flow in and out when cinched. Closed cell liner so warm as toast. Used the Imhoff version and used it spring and fall as well as my foulies. No longer available but mustang makes something similar. Not dragging anything so no worries about prop or impact on boat speed. Tried dinghy suits and diving suits but very uncomfortable after a short while. Just a thought.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

ed211 said:


> you guys are over complicating the situation. Just harness up while sailing and on deck. anchor/moor/dock for the night remove harness Bam.


Certainly if you are in difficult wind wave situations you will want to do that.

Unfortunately most POB situations, which do not include racing, happen in places and times where you would never put on harnesses, and when the people you sail with would refuse to do so. I suggested to some of my potential passengers that I was going to put a seat belt on the bench and they told me I was crazy and that they would refuse to wear it.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

outbound said:


> Z- if that's your concern get an exposure suit. Not a gumby but the type the oil crews wear. Hands and feet are not enclosed but there are pull straps so little no water flow in and out when cinched. Closed cell liner so warm as toast. Used the Imhoff version and used it spring and fall as well as my foulies. No longer available but mustang makes something similar. Not dragging anything so no worries about prop or impact on boat speed. Tried dinghy suits and diving suits but very uncomfortable after a short while. Just a thought.


What you are talking about is called a drysuit.

First of all these suits cost A FORTUNE($800 to $1000 each). Secondly, they are useless for sailing unless conditions are horrible because they are very hot to wear. Third, you cannot put all your passengers in a dry suit.

However, its a situation where you were not prepared to have someone fall overboard. If you are sailing in rough weather, then a dry suit would be great if you have the money, and harnesses would be great too. But again, most people fall out when you least expect it to happen, and often when the wind/waves are no big deal.

Its these times that you have to be prepared for. Just like most auto accidents are close to home when you are not pay attention and least expect it. On trips you are in high alert.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

If I recall it was called an exposure suit not a dry suit. Left on with out being cinched and front zip down to the waist had no trouble wearing it in New England waters with temps in 50s to low 70s for days on end. One I used to have had side zips and zips to get at pockets as well. Dry suits I think are a different creature. Think the mustang one lists for ~$500 but probably could be bought cheaper with some careful shopping. One I had I bought in New Bedford out of a shop servicing the commercial crowd on sale for half that. Had an indelible ink line across the front but no impact on function so who cares if Buffy and Chas didn't like it. 
Agree you're not going to buy one for every one but think one of the joys of small boats is if you just have an hour or two it's so nice and easy to just go out by yourself. I acutely miss that but no longer in a position I can own multiple boats. Also miss the early and late season sailing where it's not bumper cars, PWCs and center consoles doing hole shots. Middle of summer around Mass Bay is lousy super light air. So you're right no chance you'd wear more than shorts and a T. Was just trying to be helpful. You are lucky -go sailing-don't stress.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Quick google first watch $365.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

outbound said:


> If I recall it was called an exposure suit not a dry suit.


https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/products/antiexposure-suit-uscg-44488.html

Maybe this is what you mean.... Pretty cheap at $318. But won't help much if you fall overboard, and water will fill the suit and make it doubly difficult to get you back into the boat.

For $619 you can have a drysuit which is 100% waterproof, and can keep you warm while you are in the water.

https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/products/gill-pro-drysuit-front-zip-ash-graphite-44737.html

I a doctor friend who who fell out of his dory when it went over in Alaska. He and his wife swam around it in their neoprene gloves and booties too for almost an hour before they got it righted. The got cold but no hypothermia.

But again not a regular feature. Probably if my wife and I want to sail here in Bar harbor in the late fall, we should both get Dry suits. With them we could actually swim to shore, no problem.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

tschmidty said:


> ....
> Of course it'd be great if she could just round up,come about and pop into a heave to position 5 feet downwind of me but being realistic what else should i be instructing a novice to do in this sort of situation? I could conceivably provide a longer checklist for a longer duration situation but trying to not complicate things too much (and yes I know how that sounds). The point is to keep her (the SO or the boat, hmm...) out of danger at that point more so than myself.
> 
> So...thoughts?


FWIW, I put together a video that presents my answer to the OP's question:


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I'm a fan of the Quick Stop method. See 



 . With an inexperienced crew left on board you don't even have to furl the jib. The Quick Stop has fewer failure modes since there are fewer steps and is very forgiving.

Regardless recovery under sail has been shown in a number of studies (both testing and looking at actual events) than dropping sail and motoring.

Incidentally for MOB practice a fender tied to a bucket is more representative of a person in the water than a cushion - the cushion is more affected by wind than a person is.

Having a plan is better than no plan at all so I don't disagree with Reach-Reach. I think Quick Stop is better especially in winds above 12 kts.

Discuss.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

SVAuspicious said:


> I'm a fan of the Quick Stop method. See Man Overboard under sail - the Quick Stop method - YouTube . With an inexperienced crew left on board you don't even have to furl the jib. The Quick Stop has fewer failure modes since there are fewer steps and is very forgiving.....
> Having a plan is better than no plan at all so I don't disagree with Reach-Reach. I think Quick Stop is better especially in winds above 12 kts.
> 
> Discuss.


Dave
The reason I do not recommend the quick stop procedure for an inexperienced crew is that it requires a jibe. Take an inexperienced crew, add the stress of an emergency situation, and a jibe is something better to avoid as it is likely to be a flying jibe - add a strong wind to the flying jibe and the recovery runs a chance of producing a situation more grave the the original MOB.

With either procedure, reach-reach or quick stop, you will need to furl the jib if there is wind strength, otherwise the luffing jib will pull the boat away from the MOB.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

sailingfool said:


> The reason I do not recommend the quick stop procedure for an inexperienced crew is that it requires a jibe.


I share your concern. Offshore I always have a preventer rigged, even upwind. Inshore I rig a preventer below a close reach. Too much scar tissue. *grin* The Quick Stop works great in that scenario.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

The Quickstop method I learned about at a Storm Trysail Safety at Sea Seminar involved an immediate tack. No jibe. We did our first practice drill with the spinnaker up in 15 knots of wind. We were back at the "victim" in 45 seconds. Our results improved in subsequent tries. Our main problem was slowing down enough not to be ripping the arms off any victim whose hand would have been grabbed when we got back to him.

We also favor having the victim to leeward, so that a tackle can be rigged to the boom or running backstay to help lift him or her aboard without wind and wave making him swing into (smash into) the boat. Grabbing a cushion with a boathook is not like hefting 100kg over the lifelines. We also think using a triangular tarp as a parbuckle to get the victim aboard quickly is a good idea: fasten one corner on the rail forward, one on the rail aft, and attach the tackle to the third corner, outboard, with the victim in the "pouch" between the tackle and the boat. Pull on the tackle and the victims rolls up & in. He won't have to be conscious, clipped to anything, or wearing a harness for this to work. Having him to leeward means less distance to lift, as well. Our lifelines have lashings on the ends which we can cut so we can loosen the lifelines when needed to get someone aboard without having to go over them. 

For more realistic practice our club has also held races during which each boat was required, on a signal from the RC, to toss a watermelon overboard and retrieve it before continuing to race. A watermelon is about the size of a human head, and, like an unconscious victim, can be quite difficult to get hold of and hoist.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

paulk said:


> The Quickstop method I learned about at a Storm Trysail Safety at Sea Seminar involved an immediate tack. No jibe. We did our first practice drill with the spinnaker up in 15 knots of wind. We were back at the "victim" in 45 seconds. ..


 I think the Storm Trysail MOB procedures are good for boats with knowledgeable crews who can make the appropriate decisions and actions to execute them. Note that Storm Trysail has two differing maneuvers: one if close-hauled, one if reaching. The close-hauled maneuver requires sailing an expert figure eight course to avoid the need for the jibe. I still recommend the reach away reach back as the basic MOB because no decision is needed and the maneuver is simple to execute.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

I have already posted to this thread.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/3504394-post7.html

Comments for recent posters?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jackdale said:


> I have already posted to this thread.
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/3504394-post7.html
> 
> Comments for recent posters?


I don't know, Jack, that seems complicated and a lot of sail trimming if you're the only crew left aboard. Remembering two different procedures also seems unnecessary for what will be a tense situation. I do see the advantage of being hove-to during recovery.

I've been a quick stop guy. It's probably so ingrained that I would turn into the wind, without thinking, then take a second or two to compose the rest of the procedure.

I find this Reach to Reach method to be compelling. I've been working the various scenarios through in my mind, ie various beginning points of sail and wind strengths. Getting the jib furled and tacking the boat at the same time is the only piece I question. With moderate seas, I would think waves could prevent the tack, if no one was at the helm.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

jackdale said:


> I have already posted to this thread.
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/3504394-post7.html
> 
> Comments for recent posters?


My concern with these procedures is, like the Storm Trysail, that they require the crew in a moment of stress to make a crucial decision, and then perform some expert sailing maneuvers. I certainly am comfortable considering them like the Storm Trysail's for adoption by the experienced, consistent racing crew.

I guess the question would be, what is the benefit of either more complex process when you a have a simpler, perhaps arguably quicker, alternative?


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Minnewaska said:


> ... Getting the jib furled and tacking the boat at the same time is the only piece I question. With moderate seas, I would think waves could prevent the tack, if no one was at the helm.


Perhaps the jib furling piece seems easy to me because our furler line is located adjacent to the wheel, but the truth is the furling and tacking need not be simultaneous. You have two boat lengths reaching away to partially furl the jib, then pause while tacking, then two boat lengths returning to finish the furl if necessary....


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

paulk said:


> We also favor having the victim to leeward, so that a tackle can be rigged to the boom or running backstay to help lift him or her aboard without wind and wave making him swing into (smash into) the boat. Grabbing a cushion with a boathook is not like hefting 100kg over the lifelines. We also think using a triangular tarp as a parbuckle to get the victim aboard quickly is a good idea: fasten one corner on the rail forward, one on the rail aft, and attach the tackle to the third corner, outboard, with the victim in the "pouch" between the tackle and the boat.


I have never had to recover a COB in real life. I'd like to keep it that way. I do practice regularly, in part for myself and in part because I take people out for boathandling training.

I have read everything I can find over many years about COB recovery. Some have been academic, some empirical, and some anecdotal. The single-event anecdotes are of least use.

Here are some links:

Crew Overboard Maneuvers : BoatUS Foundation

http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/DARoot/Offshore/SAS Studies/MOB_Study_1986.pdf

Improving the odds of recovery - Ocean Navigator - March/April 2013

There is also, floating around on the Internet somewhere, and in-depth analysis of four hundred real world crew overboard events. The report with final conclusions was about six hundred pages if I recall correctly. It's been a while since I have been able to track that one down - if anyone finds it _PLEASE_ let me know.

Here are my conclusions based on the available literature, substantiated by my own experience and practice.

The fewer the number of steps the better.

The fewer adjustments necessary the better.

The closer you stay to the COB the higher the chance of successful recovery.

Sailboats under sail should recovery the COB under sail.

People who cannot swim should always wear PFDs aboard.

Practice.

Keep the COB to windward.

For recovery there is nothing better than five 20-year-old USNA Midshipmen on board. Everything else is a compromise.

Discussion:

More complex arrangements mean more steps to remember, more opportunities for failure, and more time which means greater opportunities for failure. The literature pretty clearly shows that the Quick Stop was fastest and had fewest failures. While you _can_ roll up the jib you do not have to. Remember - in a COB recovery we are not trying to go fast (boat speed) we are trying to go quickly (clock time). A backwinded jib slows the boat and is a good thing. In practice I have done a Quick Stop with the spinnaker up in full control of the boat.

In the big four hundred event analysis it is clear that losing sight of the COB almost always means the COB is dead. If your scenario of choice is two people, one on the boat and one in the water, you HAVE to stay close.

Also in the big analysis is time after time of sailboats trying to use engine power and wrapping a line around the propeller. COB would drown just out of reach because the boat was beyond control.

Practice. Practice. Practice. When I lived in the UK it was common to see people practicing COB routines. Unfortunately it is rare in my stomping grounds in the US. Practice.

The literature is also pretty clear that attractive as a leeward recovery might seem (and in light air it is fine) there are many incidences of the boat (more windage than the COB) being swept over the COB. Injury and drowning results. At least a halyard and preferably a lifting tackle like that from Lifesling make the additional height less of a factor.

The literature provides a number of recovery methods to consider. The aforementioned Middies are fastest although you should be warned they eat a lot. Halyards and tackle do well. You can use a sheet as an elevator but that requires a COB who is conscious and in good shape. A jib or spinnaker in the water can be used as a lift, including for unconscious COBs. All make winches and other mechanical advantage available. A tarp is possible but it is one more thing to find and rig properly.

One other thought that is my own and not in the literature is to pack cockpit lockers and lazerettes so the most important safety equipment is always on top. In my case that means all the safety gear comes out to reach the dock lines and shore power cord I use more often. That's okay with me.


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## Pendragon35 (Jun 26, 2014)

I'v watched the Quick Stop method a couple of times and honestly I can't imagine my wife being able to manage all this. She's an inexperienced sailor and all the gybing and so on would be beyond her skill level (Alberg 35, she's been sailing day sails a couple years).

Our current plan is let go and start the engine, let out Lifesling, circle. I'm not sure this is the BEST plan but it's one we feel she could handle.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Pendragon35 said:


> Our current plan is let go and start the engine, let out Lifesling, circle. I'm not sure this is the BEST plan but it's one we feel she could handle.


In the excitement and concern of you being in the water can you wife be absolutely sure there are no sheets or other lines in the water? History indicates not.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> My concern with these procedures is, like the Storm Trysail, that they require the crew in a moment of stress to make a crucial decision, and then perform some expert sailing maneuvers. I certainly am comfortable considering them like the Storm Trysail's for adoption by the experienced, consistent racing crew.
> 
> I guess the question would be, what is the benefit of either more complex process when you a have a simpler, perhaps arguably quicker, alternative?


How can it be simpler than not touching the sails (on the upwind method)? There are no decisions to be made - heave to - sail to -heave to.

Downwind involves coming about once and heaving to.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

jackdale said:


> How can it be simpler than not touching the sails (on the upwind method)? There are no decisions to be made - heave to - sail to -heave to.
> 
> Downwind involves coming about once and heaving to.


This approach provides two maneuvers, one for the closehauled point of sail, one for reaching.

So at the point of husband-in-the-water panic, the crew(wife) needs to decide which maneuver is required for a successful recovery. If she chooses the wrong one, the recovery will be botched - the procedures are not alternative or interchangeable.

That is the required decision.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> This approach provides two maneuvers, one for the closehauled point of sail, one for reaching.
> 
> So at the point of husband-in-the-water panic, the crew(wife) needs to decide which maneuver is required for a successful recovery. If she chooses the wrong one, the recovery will be botched - the procedures are not alternative or interchangeable.
> 
> That is the required decision.


All you have do is remember your point of sail.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

jackdale said:


> All you have do is remember your point of sail.


Right, a no brainer to me and you, and many of SN readers, but the title of this thread references the "inexperienced second mate..." and that is the rub.

I am not suggesting that an experienced crew should not use either version of these quick stop procedures, and I plan to also video them this summer.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> Right, a no brainer to me and you, and many of SN readers, but the title of this thread references the "inexperienced second mate..." and that is the rub.


Some possible solutions:

always sail with a third experienced crew member

teach the second mate how to do an MOB or hire an instructor to do so. And practice, practice, practice

always wear a pfd and a tether attached to a strong point or a jackline

get a more experienced second mate

sit under a tree


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

SVAuspicious said:


> I have never had to recover a COB in real life. I'd like to keep it that way. I do practice regularly, in part for myself and in part because I take people out for boathandling training.
> 
> I have read everything I can find over many years about COB recovery. Some have been academic, some empirical, and some anecdotal. The single-event anecdotes are of least use.
> 
> ...


Possibly the best common dog I've seen on the subject.

Only a slight variance of opinion regarding the engine, I am not a fan of absolutes. completely agree the likelihood of a rope in the prop is high. A lot depends on the situation.

One of the reasons I like the heave to approach. There is no flogging sails or lines. Taking a little bit of time to check situation and allow preparation to approach the MOB. An engine on "stand By" may make the difference between a missed approach and a successful one.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Uricanejack said:


> Possibly the best common dog I've seen on the subject.


Thanks. I think. What's a "common dog?" *grin*



Uricanejack said:


> Only a slight variance of opinion regarding the engine, I am not a fan of absolutes. completely agree the likelihood of a rope in the prop is high. A lot depends on the situation.
> 
> One of the reasons I like the heave to approach. There is no flogging sails or lines. Taking a little bit of time to check situation and allow preparation to approach the MOB. An engine on "stand By" may make the difference between a missed approach and a successful one.


I hear you. The literature, including the analysis of so very many events, shows line wraps over and over again. I'd like to think I'm smarter and more careful than that and you probably do also.

In real life I would probably start the engine and run it in neutral; I wouldn't be able to help myself. I'm a real fussbudget about coiling lines - that reduces the risk of a line over the side. Still the more working lines the greater the chance of a line over the side and a prop wrap. I suspect that is a reason that in actual COB events dropping the sails is correlated with prop wraps - you have to use the engine and suddenly lots of lines are slack.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

While we practice the quick stop, I am acutely aware that my wife is going to struggle, if I'm the one in the drink. I'm certain she turn up into the wind, then I'm sure she's start the engine and drop the sails, even though she's practiced sailing back. I just know her.

Therefore, I installed a MOB module, which I know she'll deploy. This way, she'll be able to find me, after she drifts too far away. 

It's just the best I can do, I'm afraid, other than do everything possible to stay aboard.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

This past fall my sailing partner and I took turns jumping off underway and picking each other up on my beach cat, I don't endorse this or recommend this, but there were some interesting lessons learned.

What I found, that using a variation of the reach to reach method, and not backing the jib, I could continue to actively sail the boat and bring the boat right to the PIW, by backing the jib, you are surrendering control of the boat. I'm not sure this would work as well for a novice.

I don't see any way a novice could manage either method without some practice, so that would be my recommendation, throw a fender over the side and have her pick it up under sail a few times and let her decide which method she likes best.

I worry about my wife's ability to pick me up too, so I always wear a hand held VHF on my PFD, the theory being I could talk her through it and if she got too far away from me I could help her find me again.


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## Davil (Oct 9, 2017)

this thread was headlined as 

*MOB Procedure with an inexperienced 2nd mate
Hypothermia

May include single/solo sailing.*

Found this table, basically confirms the only surviving MOB 100% successful is not to go overboard.
And that is: ALWAYS been tethered.
Been tethered always finds those that practice it 100%,those that practice them "depending on the circumstances." and those that do not practice it at all.
My intention to provide this chart is to help those that are on the fence to reconsider their decision, depending on the area they are sailing/water temperature, otherwise, not interested to argue the point on the use of the tether, has been argued to no end. 

*Hypothermia Chart*
​
IF THE WATER TEMPERATURE (F) IS:EXHAUSTION OR UNCONSCIOUSNESSEXPECTED TIME OF SURVIVAL IS:32.5Under 15 MinutesUnder 15 - 45 Minutes32.5 - 40.015 - 30 Minutes30 - 90 Minutes40.0 - 50.030 - 60 Minutes1 - 3 Hours50.0 - 60.01 -2 Hours1 - 6 Hours60.0 - 70.02 - 7 Hours2 - 40 Hours70.0 - 80.03 - 12 Hours3 Hours - IndefinitelyOVER 80.0IndefinitelyIndefinitely

I sail solo.always tethered.


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