# Albertan rescued after dismasting / engine failure



## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

> Three Canadians whose sailboat was caught in a violent storm in the Pacific Ocean have arrived safely in Honolulu after a night-time rescue by a American container ship.
> 
> The three, including a nine-year-old boy, were attempting to cross from Puerto Vallerto, Mexico, to Hawaii but were adrift with no power and their sails destroyed.


Canadians sailors rescued from sinking ship in stormy Pacific - The Globe and Mail


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## Crewm8 (Feb 18, 2008)

Read this article this morning. It seemed to me like they just had no clue keeping their sails up in 40+ kt winds!


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Crewm8 said:


> Read this article this morning. It seemed to me like they just had no clue keeping their sails up in 40+ kt winds!


Which article did you read? Link?

The reports is that they are from Calgary - I do not know them.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Newspaper reports about sailboat issues are rarely accurate or complete. From this article it is very hard to know exactly what happened. Not that familiar with the area between Mexico and Hawaii but I would have thought the water warm enough that hypothermia would not have been an issue in that time frame.

Then of course, there is the whole issue of people from Calgary sailing at all - they should be riding horses.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> Then of course, there is the whole issue of people from Calgary sailing at all - they should be riding horses.


The vast majority of my clients / students are from Calgary, even on courses that I had no part in organizing. About 50% of boat slips in BC belong to Albertans. Calgary and Edmonton are common ports of call on transoms. It leads to some interesting comments.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jackdale said:


> Canadians sailors rescued from sinking ship in stormy Pacific - The Globe and Mail


Jack - if you don't mind I'm going to add that to the Ship Rescues thread. Thanks for posting it.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Yet another instance of the Americans saving the Canadians' bacon...


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

The weather here in Hawaii has been severe the last couple days. We have a swell from Alaska area causing 20 foot + seas and on top of that a 18 foot + wind swell. Rouge waves could be close to 40 feet and breaking. On top of that the waves are coming from different directions. 

This type of conditions would strain almost any sailor. Even at the dock your boat is at risk. Been checking mine and others on the dock 2x a day. Yesterday a 40 foot fishing boat broke 1-1/2 dock line and was ready to bang the boat next to it- tied it off again. Also helped friend secure her 40 footer as two 1 inch dock lines had broken. This is all due to high winds and wave surge. I understand on Maui 3 boats have broken moorings and run aground, along with a commercial sailing catamaran whom lost engine going into channel.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> Yet another instance of the Americans saving the Canadians' bacon...


It is appreciated. Of course, Canadian bacon is a delicacy.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> Newspaper reports about sailboat issues are rarely accurate or complete. From this article it is very hard to know exactly what happened. Not that familiar with the area between Mexico and Hawaii but I would have thought the water warm enough that hypothermia would not have been an issue in that time frame.
> 
> Then of course, there is the whole issue of people from Calgary sailing at all - they should be riding horses.


Water temp in that area less than 75 deg F. With wind chill and your head wet you would not last long.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> The weather here in Hawaii has been severe the last couple days. We have a swell from Alaska area causing 20 foot + seas and on top of that a 18 foot + wind swell. Rouge waves could be close to 40 feet and breaking. On top of that the waves are coming from different directions.
> 
> This type of conditions would strain almost any sailor. Even at the dock your boat is at risk. Been checking mine and others on the dock 2x a day. Yesterday a 40 foot fishing boat broke 1-1/2 dock line and was ready to bang the boat next to it- tied it off again. Also helped friend secure her 40 footer as two 1 inch dock lines had broken. This is all due to high winds and wave surge. I understand on Maui 3 boats have broken moorings and run aground, along with a commercial sailing catamaran whom lost engine going into channel.


Thanks Casey

Nasty

Do you have any updates?


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

jackdale said:


> Thanks Casey
> 
> Nasty
> 
> Do you have any updates?


Last couple days a cold front has passed through which gave the unusally high velocity northwest wind direction. Today winds will beome lighter trades (north east) but the large north swell will continue for the next several days, although slightly smaller. Then Monday anther big 20 foot swell coming in from Alaska, but with normal trade winds. Note that a 20 foot open ocean swell generally makes a 40 foot wave face when it breaks on shore. These are the same wave trains that Washington and Oregon get.
More details:
http://mauinews.com/page/content.detail/id/557925/Winds-send-boats-to-shore.html?nav=10


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Wonder what kind of boat it was...


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Brad sounds like quite a Captain (women and children first)- I know of a cruise line looking for a few good men!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

night0wl said:


> Wonder what kind of boat it was...


Don't know but in this link there is a pic of it (not very good) on the right margin.- from what is shown looks like a solid vessel.
Canadian family rescued during voyage to Hawaii - Hawaii News Now - KGMB and KHNL

Video Interview:
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/16831935/s

Hey, they were in the water for 2 hours- and no complaints- real men.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Hard to tell what kind of boat it is, might be an older Swan with the blue stripe and teak deck.

Jack I know a perfectly good reason for having Edmonton or Calgary on the transom - tried to arrange it for my boat too. Also nice to see you rise to the bait.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

I think that these Facebook photos are it. No teak.

Log In | Facebook


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

killarney_sailor said:


> Hard to tell what kind of boat it is, might be an older Swan with the blue stripe and teak deck.


.. or perhaps an early Bavaria, and some of the CT boats had that similar 'swan-ie" look and trim...


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Jack if you look at the photo on the link that Casey posted there is teak on the deck and on the cabin top too. Maybe they got the boat pictures switched along the way.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> Jack if you look at the photo on the link that Casey posted there is teak on the deck and on the cabin top too. Maybe they got the boat pictures switched along the way.


The photo with the teak is from Mitchell James Face book page.

Mitch James | Facebook

The link to the teak deck photo is

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/372142_854055170_1547935994_n.jpg


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Cold water perceptions*



casey1999 said:


> Water temp in that area less than 75 deg F. With wind chill and your head wet you would not last long.


An interesting cross-cultural take on water temps. For someone from Hawaii, water in the low to mid 70s is cold which I can understand. For those of us from the Great Lakes, it is rare that Lake Ontario for example would ever reach 75F. I used to take kids on canoe trips for a week in small lakes north of Toronto in early May and it was hard to keep the kids out of the water (they did not stay long) - but the lakes were frozen only a few weeks earlier and temps might have been around 50F. I did not go in ever, and that may explain why I like sailing in tropical waters.

I checked a hypothermia chart and with water temps between 70 and 80, the time until 'exhaustion or unconsciousness' is given as 3 to 12 hours. This makes sense to me. I would imagine in a situation like this that the stress and physical exertion would take more out of you than the water temps.

Hypothermia Chart


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'm with Killarney, 75 F sounds positively balmy!

From the "Cold water Boot Camp" site: talking about COLD water..



> 1 - 10 - 1
> 1-10-1 is a simple way to remember the first three phases of cold water immersion and the approximate time each phase takes.
> 
> 1 - Cold Shock. An initial deep and sudden Gasp followed by hyperventilation that can be as much as 600-1000% greater than normal breathing. You must keep your airway clear or run the risk of drowning. Cold Shock will pass in about 1 minute. During that time concentrate on avoiding panic and getting control of your breathing. Wearing a lifejacket during this phase is critically important to keep you afloat and breathing.
> ...


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> An interesting cross-cultural take on water temps. For someone from Hawaii, water in the low to mid 70s is cold which I can understand. For those of us from the Great Lakes, it is rare that Lake Ontario for example would ever reach 75F. I used to take kids on canoe trips for a week in small lakes north of Toronto in early May and it was hard to keep the kids out of the water (they did not stay long) - but the lakes were frozen only a few weeks earlier and temps might have been around 50F. I did not go in ever, and that may explain why I like sailing in tropical waters.
> 
> I checked a hypothermia chart and with water temps between 70 and 80, the time until 'exhaustion or unconsciousness' is given as 3 to 12 hours. This makes sense to me. I would imagine in a situation like this that the stress and physical exertion would take more out of you than the water temps.
> 
> Hypothermia Chart


I grew up in PA and MD area and have swum in the Chesapeake bay when the water was 32 degree and air temp at 20 F (Polar Bear Plunge in the early 1990"- ice on the water). The problem with the chart is it seems to assume you head is dry and no wind and maybe you are lightly treading water to stay afloat. You loose a lot of heat through your head and if it is wet (waves breaking on top of you) and 40 knot wind blowing you will loose a lot of heat through your head. And as you mention, stress and physical exertion robs you of even more energy. Children, with there large surface area in respect to body size will loose heat even faster.

I question the lasting indefinitely at 80 Deg F. With a core temp of 98 deg F and water at 80 that is a delta T of 18 Deg. Still a lot of heat transfer and water transfers heat very well. The calories to make this up need to come from somewhere- does the chart assume you are floating while eating a 7 course meal?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

There is a research center in Toronto that has done extensive work on hypothermia. Volunteers (!) hop into ice filled baths in bathing suits with thermometers down their throats and up their butts while they do things like blow air at them. All I can say to those folks, is thank you.

When I got an insurance survey a few years ago the only thing the surveyor recommended was Category 1 (or A, I forget) lifejackets - anyway the really big serious ones. I suspect these things would actually be a big help with hypothermia since they insulate your core pretty well. Also would be a good idea to stick a hat on before jumping in. We bought some of those ones with the two tassels in Peru - could use those and look a bit dorky on rescue.


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## Bilgewater (Jul 17, 2008)

Bradley was interviewed on CBC radio today, great interview to say the least. Apparently the seas were to the point that the ship's bow bulb surfaced and on the decent took out the sailboat. Well worth catching this if your in Canada or northern USA.

Edit: Just realised...I guess this interview is the same one that Casey posted earlier with some lengthy input from the CBC correspondents.


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## CorvetteGuy (Jun 4, 2011)

jameswilson29 said:


> Yet another instance of the Americans saving the Canadians' bacon...


pemeal bacon mmmm,,do a run for my american freinds annualy


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Here is a photo of the boat. Not a Swan.










Centre cockpit.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

So much for that newspaper report. Maybe they just went into their files and chose a random sailboat picture. Waht kind of boat is it?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Nice detective work, Jack... definitely not the pic/boat in the other links.

I watched most of that interview and it's a pretty scary story. They were lucky to survive, very fortunate to have been picked up and the crew on the ship deserves kudos.

This story is an interesting parallel to a recent similar saga, don't you think?

btw do you recognize that 'thing'?.... I don't.....


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## curtcee (Jul 10, 2011)

jackdale said:


> Here is a photo of the boat. Not a Swan.
> 
> Centre cockpit.


That is one ugly boat.

Curtis


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

jackdale said:


> Here is a photo of the boat. Not a Swan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea, this ain't the same boat- I retract my previous statement! But it looks like a happy crew, and I would rather sail with a good crew than a good boat.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Live, Local, Late Breaking.....
Family has joyful reunion after ordeal at sea - Hawaii News - Honolulu Star-Advertiser


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> So much for that newspaper report. Maybe they just went into their files and chose a random sailboat picture. Waht kind of boat is it?


The other photo is from Mitch James' Facebook page.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jackdale said:


> Here is a photo of the boat. *Not a Swan.*


Well, glad that's been determined... I was just waiting for someone to guess it was a Hinckley.... (grin)



Faster said:


> btw do you recognize that 'thing'?.... I don't.....


38 feet, right?

CustomPieceOfCrap 38, perhaps?



curtcee said:


> That is one ugly boat.
> 
> Curtis


Nah, you're just seeing it from an unflattering angle, is all...

Don't have my copy of WORLD CRUISING ROUTES handy at the moment to confirm this, but that thing sure doesn't have the look of anything I'd want to find myself aboard in that particular part of the North Pacific, in the dead of winter...


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Wow, harsh.

- Maybe the photo is right after the purchase and right before the renos.
- Maybe the photo is right after their previous epic ocean voyage and right before cleanup.
- Maybe the photo is of their previous boat.
- Maybe the photo is of the boat that rescued them when their previous boat sank.
- Maybe the boat carried them safely for thousands of miles and was loved by them for many years before finally giving out in really bad conditions.

etc.

Facts before judgements, fellas.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

AdamLein said:


> Wow, harsh.
> 
> - Maybe the photo is right after the purchase and right before the renos.
> - Maybe the photo is right after their previous epic ocean voyage and right before cleanup.
> ...


I would say the two pics are not the same boat. If you bury the rail of the "thing" you would be at a near knock down. But I agree, facts would be nice.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Sounds like a case of inexperience. With the fore stay gone, the logical thing to do was to set up the jib halyard tight to hold the mast, till things calmed down. Sounds like that wold have only taken a few days wait. A good drogue off the stern quarter would have made a huge difference. It shows how the "Rescue " ship can be a far greater hazard that waiting for calmer weather ,and continuing on the last 300 miles under jury rig. I heard they only had 300 miles to go.
Love my steel hull, which would not be cause for the slightest worry in those conditions.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> Sounds like a case of inexperience. With the fore stay gone, the logical thing to do was to set up the jib halyard tight to hold the mast, till things calmed down. Sounds like that wold have only taken a few days wait. A good drogue off the stern quarter would have made a huge difference. It shows how the "Rescue " ship can be a far greater hazard that waiting for calmer weather ,and continuing on the last 300 miles under jury rig. I heard they only had 300 miles to go.
> Love my steel hull, which would not be cause for the slightest worry in those conditions.


There are a lot of reports of what happened, have not read everything and may be some contridictions, but I understand the skipper tried to rig the halyard as you suggest and got a concusion in the process, they also tried to jury rig but the sea/wind was too much in their situation. And now they got some experience.
2 men, boy plucked from Pacific in dramatic rescue


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'm pretty sure at one point it was mentioned that the chainplates pulled out of the deck, causing the mast to fall (while the one guy was up trying to do something about the forestay) 

While not unheard of, that's something one would hope would not happen with a suitable offshore boat. I suspect/hope that poor old girl had seen better days.... Also IIRC they only claimed 4 years sailing experience outside of beach cats..


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## curtcee (Jul 10, 2011)

AdamLein said:


> Wow, harsh.
> 
> - Maybe the photo is right after the purchase and right before the renos.
> - Maybe the photo is right after their previous epic ocean voyage and right before cleanup.
> ...


The fact is, the boat in that picture is one ugly boat.

Curtis


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

curtcee said:


> The fact is, the boat in that picture is one ugly boat.
> 
> Curtis


So the question is:
If you were 300 miles from shore would you rather swim, or ride the "thing".

Kinda like "I'd rather push my Chevy than drive a Ford".


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

AdamLein said:


> Wow, harsh.
> 
> - Maybe the photo is right after the purchase and right before the renos.
> - Maybe the photo is right after their previous epic ocean voyage and right before cleanup.
> ...


Facts? Facts? Why? Judgements are so much more fun! 

My judgement: That boat fell from the the ugly mast and hit every spreader on the way down!

MedSailor


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

AdamLein said:


> Wow, harsh.


Sorry about that&#8230; However, it was intended to be&#8230;

I'd be willing to cut them a bit more slack, had it only been those two adult brothers aboard&#8230; If they want to try to sail something like that to Hawaii in the dead of winter, fine&#8230; Dragging a 9 year old boy along for the ride, however, that's a whole different ballgame&#8230;

Sorry, but to my eye, that boat appears to be not even close to being suited for such a voyage&#8230; Hell, the shoddy, half-assed manner in which the radar cable is passed through the transom alone speaks volumes, I can only imagine what the back of the electrical panel must have looked like on that thing&#8230; Boats like that undoubtedly have given many people great pleasure, and wonderful memories, to be sure&#8230; They definitely have their place in this world, but IMHO it's just not in those like the North Pacific, in January/February - with an innocent child aboard, no less&#8230;

Perhaps it's just me, but I can't help wondering if these folks perhaps might have put a bit too much _Faith_ in their Lord, in ensuring a successful completion of such a passage? (grin)



AdamLein said:


> - Maybe the photo is right after the purchase and right before the renos.
> - Maybe the photo is right after their previous epic ocean voyage and right before cleanup.
> - Maybe the photo is of their previous boat.
> - Maybe the photo is of the boat that rescued them when their previous boat sank.
> ...


Sure, there's plenty we don't know at this point&#8230; However, the caption for the same photo in LATITUDE 38 reads:

"James family - Mitch, mom Megan hugging West, and Brad - pose in front of Liahona shortly before their departure."


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Just saw this very interesting account posted over on Sailing Anarchy, gives a much fuller appreciation of the extreme difficulty of the sort of shiphandling required to perform such a rescue...

Hmmm, looks like yet another case of a boat being "destroyed" by those attempting to effect the rescue... (grin)

Nothing short of miraculous that these people are still alive... Absolutely masterful seamanship by Captain Kelleher and the crew aboard HORIZON RELIANCE



> The Masters, Mates & Pilots
> Wheelhouse Weekly
> Bridging the Information Gap
> With E-News You Can Use
> ...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Nice find, Jon.... this was some amazing handling of such a large, loaded vessel. The windage these container ships present is monumental.

The crew of Liahona is properly grateful, darn lucky to be alive on so many levels that I fear there's no point in running out to the lottery.. they've used up their allotment of luck.

Another thought.. the HR is a bridge-forward ship.. I wonder how much difference it would have made had she been a somewhat more typical aft superstructure vessel.

In any event this rescue really was a triumph.....


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Not sure if this has been linked to previously, this is from a press conference after their arrival in Hawaii... Not necessarily worth watching unless you have 20 minutes to kill, but it does afford a few more details, and a glimpse into the level of experience of these clowns...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/02/09/sea-rescue-hawaii.html

I especially liked this comment, 1:30 in, referring to their preparations for the rescue...



> We had to set up fenders, so we wouldn't hurt their boat...


Hey, at least he didn't call them "bumpers"... (grin)

I grew bored after a couple of minutes, so jumped to the end... The last couple of minutes, they're asked about their prior sailing experience, which was pretty much limited to sailing a Hobie or similar on a lake in Alberta...

if we are to take this guy literally, he had - 2 years prior - precisely ONE previous "experience with this boat", before setting off on this voyage...

An afternoon daysail in the bay outside of Mazatlan...

un-freakin'-believable...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Faster said:


> btw do you recognize that 'thing'?.... I don't.....


Mystery solved, I believe... Appears to be a Yorktown 40...

1982 Yorktown Center Cockpit Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Yup, definitely not a Swan...

It appears that all those ports (look like old plastic Becksons, perhaps?) below the deck open _INBOARD_...

Uh-oh... Although, I suppose it could be argued, that the rub rail is really what essentially delineates the "deck level" on that thing... (grin)


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

A good friend of mine has a Yorktown 35, it's actually a really nice boat, with the best interior layout of a sub 40 footer that I've ever seen. Not the best construction, but seaworthy. She successfully sailed it to Hawaii and back from the PNW. Then again, she is the consummate seawoman and teaches sailing classes. 

Proof again that "it ain't the boat". 

MedSailor


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

JonEisberg said:


> Mystery solved, I believe... Appears to be a Yorktown 40...


Nice bit of detective work, Jon.. thanks.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Another case of rescue off Hawaii...
Coast Guard rescues 2 surfers off Oahu's North Shore - Hawaii News - Honolulu Star-Advertiser


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

90% of rumours, like statistics, are made up on the spot. Expect a lot of this in the coming weeks. Don't believe anything from the rumour mill.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> A good friend of mine has a Yorktown 35, it's actually a really nice boat, with the best interior layout of a sub 40 footer that I've ever seen. *Not the best construction, but seaworthy.* She successfully sailed it to Hawaii and back from the PNW. Then again, she is the consummate seawoman and teaches sailing classes.
> 
> Proof again that "it ain't the boat".
> 
> MedSailor


OK, maybe it's just me, but don't you think the quality of a boat's construction factors into it's overall "seaworthiness", at all?

And, does your friend's voyage in her own boat _PROVE_ that she would have been similarly successful making the same trip aboard LIAHONA, in mid-winter?

I simply don't understand this sort of Either/Or approach to this question... Cannot it be possible, sometimes, for even the most skilled seaman to be overwhelmed by the "un-seaworthiness" of a particular craft? Or, even the best boats being lost due to incompetence? Or, in what seems to me most likely in the majority of examples, some _COMBINATION_ of both elements?

I've seen it here, and elsewhere, repeatedly - this yearning for absolutes, and the tendency to assert that someone (the Bumfuzzles, for instance) have "proven" something that applies to all... How does a _single voyage_, like that of your friend's, _PROVE_ anything regarding the infinite number of possibilities that can conspire to determine the success or failure of every other single venture aboard a small boat, on a big ocean? How do we know, for example, that your friend - by sheer dumb luck - just happened to miss hitting a floating container by a couple of feet in the middle of some black night, 1000 miles out of Hawaii? Had she been 10 feet one way or the other, her boat might have been on the way to the bottom in less than a minute?

What, then, would that have "proven"? Something rather different, more all-encompassing, than "it ain't the boat", perhaps? (grin)


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## shanedennis (Feb 10, 2012)

Watched the CBC video. I love how open all of them are about the experience. I like how they just lay it out there and don't try and hide anything embarrassing.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

shanedennis said:


> Watched the CBC video. I love how open all of them are about the experience. I like how they just lay it out there and don't try and hide anything embarrassing.


I thought that too... but I also think that highlights their inexperience and lack of preparation. Most amazing is the calmness with which the father discusses floating adrift with his young boy, at night, in seriously windy conditions awaiting rescue.. It's almost as if, even then, the seriousness of the situation hadn't hit home.

But... we weren't there, they could have still been in some form of shock from their ordeal. I think the major story here is apparent success of the AMVER concept, and the impressive seamanship and persistence of the crew of the container ship in keeping the two in sight and actually getting close enough to recover them in nasty conditions - conditions that probably made any idea of deploying a lifeboat untenable....


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

There is some thought on CF that the boat might be a Bayliner Buccaneer 325. The ports do not look quite right, but the profile is the same and the length is about right.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jackdale said:


> There is some thought on CF that the boat might be a Bayliner Buccaneer 325...


Hmmm, I really have to wonder sometimes, what some folks see when they look at a boat... (grin)

The vertical transom on the Buccaneer, as opposed to the reverse transom on LIAHONA, is only the first of numerous differences that jump out at me... the pronounced clipper bow shown in one of the pics on their Facebook page:










...seems an identical match to the Yorktown, whereas the Buccaneer has only the faintest hint of a clipper bow curvature... And then, the aft cabins on each boat do not even come _close_ to matching each other. Then, there's the perforated aluminum toerail on the Buccaneer... Need I go on, and on...? (grin)

One of the most distinctive features on LIAHONA is those sharp corners on the cockpit coamings:










Looks like a pretty close match to a Yorktown 40 on craigslist, to my eye... Not to mention, the identical pattern of the waterways between the non-skid sections on deck... I'd say, the odds are pretty good, that LIAHONA was a Yorktown 40 center cockpit...










But, finally - if this is a 32-footer, then they must sure grow them _tiny_ in Alberta, eh? (grin)


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> OK, maybe it's just me, but don't you think the quality of a boat's construction factors into it's overall "seaworthiness", at all?


I think you have read too deeply into my response. YES I do think construction is a factor in seaworthiness. The Yorktown that my friend owned was constructed reasonably strongly, but not well. For example they made a mistake and her cockpit is 8" off centerline indicating that the construction isn't the best but over all it is, imho, strong enough to go to sea. There didn't seem to be any issues in the construction that would cause issues with safety at sea.



JonEisberg said:


> And, does your friend's voyage in her own boat _PROVE_ that she would have been similarly successful making the same trip aboard LIAHONA, in mid-winter?


Ummm..... no. I'm not sure why you inferred that from my post. My friend would not have gone in the middle of winter which is exactly my point about it "not being about the boat". My friend also would have upgraded the gear that needed it before going off, as she did with her yorktown.



JonEisberg said:


> I simply don't understand this sort of Either/Or approach to this question... Cannot it be possible, sometimes, for even the most skilled seaman to be overwhelmed by the "un-seaworthiness" of a particular craft? Or, even the best boats being lost due to incompetence? Or, in what seems to me most likely in the majority of examples, some _COMBINATION_ of both elements?


I suppose a skilled seaman could be overwhelmed by the unseaworthyness of his boat, but this seems like an odd suggestion. I guess Larry Pardey could be overwhelmed by a pacific winter gale if he were sailing an 8' Optimist in poor shape, but he'd never be caught dead at sea in the winter in one would he? In my one-liner inferring that seaworthiness is not about the boat, I am saying that seaworthiness is largely about the person. To take it a step further a competent seaman wouldn't go out in a boat that was grossly mis-matched in ability and condition to the area and time of year.



JonEisberg said:


> I've seen it here, and elsewhere, repeatedly - this yearning for absolutes, and the tendency to assert that someone (the Bumfuzzles, for instance) have "proven" something that applies to all... How does a _single voyage_, like that of your friend's, _PROVE_ anything regarding the infinite number of possibilities that can conspire to determine the success or failure of every other single venture aboard a small boat, on a big ocean? How do we know, for example, that your friend - by sheer dumb luck - just happened to miss hitting a floating container by a couple of feet in the middle of some black night, 1000 miles out of Hawaii? Had she been 10 feet one way or the other, her boat might have been on the way to the bottom in less than a minute?
> 
> What, then, would that have "proven"? Something rather different, more all-encompassing, than "it ain't the boat", perhaps? (grin)


You got me here. Prove was the wrong word. Personally I don't really even believe in absolutes, even experimental physics is currently laughing at the few things we thought were absolutes. I too am skeptical of the word proof, and think it should be reserved for mathematicians. Wrong word. "Evidence" would have been a more appropriate word.

I think that "the boat" would have floated to a shore somewhere just fine if the container ship hadn't smashed them to bits. The point I was trying to make was that the voyage was unsucessful and dangerous because of the choices of the people aboard. Again and again we see people abandon boats that aren't sinking. The boat usually takes more than the crew is willing to. I doubt there is anything fundamentally wrong with the boat (Yorktown 40) as a group of boats. The fact that their particular boat wasn't in a condition such that she would be up to the task of a pacific winter, is entirely the fault of the people, not the boat.

As for my friend hitting a container and sinking, I don't see how that applies. If that happened and the story ended up on SN for review nobody would be trying to blame the boat. A co-worker of mine sunk a steel boat with an engine driven bilge pump after hitting something on the way to Hawaii.

I think we likely agree more than disagree on this issue, as I do think that to be "seaworthy" is a combination of crew and boat. Quality of construction specifically can play a factor at the extreme end of the bell curve, but most boats will take more than their owners. Besides, construction wasn't a contributing cause here. As far as the boat goes, condition and outfitting were, which are both the responsibility of the owner. Yorktowns are ugly but construction wise, they're not at the 3sigma end of the bell curve. I also agree that I shouldn't have used the word "prove". 

MedSailor


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I do think it's a truism that 'most boats can take more than most people' when it comes to weather.. but it comes with a caveat of sound condition, which would preclude rotten bulkheads and escaping chainplates....

I also think that 'seamanship' includes choices made about boats, their condition & maintenance, and passage timing in addition to the boat-handling and navigation skills normally considered to represent 'good seamanship'. 

These people (crew of Liahona) are extremely lucky to be alive; they seem like nice, if somewhat naive, people - but though they obviously (in hindsight) showed poor judgement, the worst of all that was putting a young child at that kind of risk. What a tragedy that would have been had things not gone so well after the passage went down the tubes, so to speak... I can't imagine ending up being a surviving parent and losing a child that way.. what an endless life of self-recrimination that would be.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> I think you have read too deeply into my response...


Yeah, I've gotta confess, you're undoubtedly right about that... (grin)



MedSailor said:


> I think we likely agree more than disagree on this issue, as I do think that to be "seaworthy" is a combination of crew and boat. Quality of construction specifically can play a factor at the extreme end of the bell curve, but most boats will take more than their owners. Besides, construction wasn't a contributing cause here. As far as the boat goes, condition and outfitting were, which are both the responsibility of the owner. Yorktowns are ugly but construction wise, they're not at the 3sigma end of the bell curve. I also agree that I shouldn't have used the word "prove".
> 
> MedSailor


Thanks very much for that very thoughtful, and thorough reply. Hope you don't object to my having clipped most of it, as it turns out I disagree with virtually nothing you've said... (grin)

I'll admit, much of my take on this stuff is informed by my experience in the delivery trade. I don't always get to go sailing on the sort of boats that would be my first preference, after all... There seems to have been so much talk around here and elsewhere, lately, hinting at the notion that "Modern Production Boats" are equally as viable a choice for offshore sailing as anything else... (that's stating the position of some others very roughly, of course)... Now, perhaps my experience has been unique in this regard, but on more than one occasion, I have seen firsthand how even some of the most minor shortcomings of design or construction can create problems that cascade exponentially over time, and can wind up creating _serious_ problems, in the end...

Just my opinion, of course... Perhaps that sort of thing just doesn't happen, to other people... (grin)


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

A lucky man, and one that had some signaling devices- somthing to think about for the off shore sailor:
Diver rescued in dark miles from land - Hawaii News Now - KGMB and KHNL


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> I've seen it here, and elsewhere, repeatedly - this yearning for absolutes, and the tendency to assert that someone (the Bumfuzzles, for instance) have "proven" something that applies to all... How does a _single voyage_, like that of your friend's, _PROVE_ anything regarding the infinite number of possibilities that can conspire to determine the success or failure of every other single venture aboard a small boat, on a big ocean? How do we know, for example, that your friend - by sheer dumb luck - just happened to miss hitting a floating container by a couple of feet in the middle of some black night, 1000 miles out of Hawaii? Had she been 10 feet one way or the other, her boat might have been on the way to the bottom in less than a minute?
> 
> What, then, would that have "proven"? Something rather different, more all-encompassing, than "it ain't the boat", perhaps? (grin)


I'm probably one of those "absolutists". But here's the kicker - I'm not.

See, what I'm arguing by presenting cases like the Bumfuzzles, Ronnie Simpson, and Michael (though he's head-and-shoulders above the other examples in terms of experience and seamanship) is that _there are no absolutes_ when it comes to skippers, boats, and even seaworthiness -_ in the big picture_. Yet, the long-held stance that, for example, _*a Hunter is not a blue water boat*_, or that "inexperienced" sailors *will surely die out there and/or kill SAR personnel who have to rescue them*, etc. is based on pretty "absolute" conclusions. Right?

So, it's funny to see you write the above. It's precisely my point. It's _*never*_ "either/or".

The difference is, your starting point is death and destruction (e.g. - unwittingly missing the container by 3 feet). And, sure there are examples of that - the dudes in this thread being one.

But there are actually many more examples of successful voyages where everyone is happy and having fun and staying safe and getting there and back - even in Yorktowns...even in storms. It's just never absolute. That's provable.

It's the 99% vs. 1% mentality. And the 99%ers drive the 1%ers crazy.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Faster said:


> I thought that too... but I also think that highlights their inexperience and lack of preparation. Most amazing is the calmness with which the father discusses floating adrift with his young boy, at night, in seriously windy conditions awaiting rescue.. It's almost as if, even then, the seriousness of the situation hadn't hit home.
> 
> But... we weren't there, they could have still been in some form of shock from their ordeal. I think the major story here is apparent success of the AMVER concept, and the impressive seamanship and persistence of the crew of the container ship in keeping the two in sight and actually getting close enough to recover them in nasty conditions - conditions that probably made any idea of deploying a lifeboat untenable....


One thing I noticed in the interviews was that the ship's crew apparently threw several pfds w/strobes into the water. The survivors also had pfds with strobes. This seems like a dangerous combination - and a potential mistake. It seems that the dad and kid were actually visible amongst all the noise because he found his flashlight floating - giving the guys on the ship a different signal to see.


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