# Farr 1104 as a Cruising liveaboard?



## Seabreasy73 (Oct 18, 2018)

Since there is not much info our there on these great racer/cruisers, I would like to know if anyone has one and uses is as a long range cruiser or lievaboard.

How well these boats behave off shore and how well these boats take heavier weather? Looking at the specs of this boat on sailboatdata.com, they are very bad for seacomfort. However, what I heard is the opposite, that these cruise and sail comfortably. Has anyone experience with these old IOR 1 tonner boats?


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

If you read the promotional pieces from Farr Yacht Design,FYD | Farr 1104 (Design 51) 
of course they sail beautifully. The promo brings up the big race wins they had in 1975 and 1976, sailing with six crew on the rail trying to hold it flat. The writing says they did away with running backstays, but the photos show them. Hmm. The mainsail is not as tiny as is typical on later IOR boats, and the jib not so huge, so maybe some other bad IOR traits are missing too. IOR and wet is one such trait. This is because the rule favored boats that were narrow forward. This one looks pretty narrow. Pounding in head seas is another. Many IOR boats have flat sections forward of the keel which pound when they get hit by waves, because designers were trying to fool the rule. IOR boats tend also to be beamy, because they need crew weight out on the rail to keep them flat. The beamy midsections tend to make them "squirrely" downwind, as the immersed hull shape gets weird. A "bustle" just in front of the rudder (again trying to fool the rule) seems to do things to rudder cavitation. Inattentive helmsmen end up broaching. This design does not seem to have tumblehome, which also helped to make immersed section shapes untenable, so perhaps some of the other features are also missing. There don't seem to be many pictures of these boats out of the water. Imagining living aboard is difficult. The plan shows minimal storage space, tankage, or furniture. Cooking under way with the galley up by the mast would be like riding a roller coaster, pounding upwind or worrying about a downwind broach sending cook and kettle flying. The mast might prevent the cook from avoiding hot spills. Anchored might be more pleasant, but the huge cockpit would be a liability for any waves coming aboard. People have taken old IOR boats and cruised with them, but they should be aware of the possible issues so they can work to avoid having them become problems.


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## Seabreasy73 (Oct 18, 2018)

Thanks, but I know all this. The particular boat I was looking at is the first iteration of the 1 tonner design (that is 1975). If you look at the pdf on the website, it states that the boat should be sailed flat (less than 20 degrees to achve maximum hull speed). Obviously, you can sail these boats short handed, I know peple who race these single handed. If you do not sail these boats competetively, just like with any other boats, you do not need 6 man crew. And I certainly do not plan to race, cruisng at 5-7 knots is plenty for me. Also, I will get sails made fit for cruising rather than racing.
Heard of people circumnavigating with these yachts, but not to many stories made it to the internet.
Farr designed Beneteau's first not much later and if you look at the hull shape of these boats or any newer boats, there is not much of a difference visually. At least not with the Farr design.
But I do not want to speculate, I'd rather hear from people who actually know the boat, but not too many of them seem to be on this forum. Would be great to hear some actual pros and cons.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

These boats are still pretty widely cruised and raced in New Zealand and Australia and seem to have a strong following. I researched the 1104 when I was researching my boat. I have never sailed one but was on a couple. The 1104's are a very respected design from that era and are not all that typical of the IOR boats of that era (more on that later).

The 1104's vary pretty widely in build method and quality of construction, varying from cold molded boats, to kit built boats, to factory finished models. The factory finished boats were very nicely finished and had an amazingly workable interior for a racer-cruiser. The kit boats and wooden versions vary very widely in layout, detailing and quality of construction.

These boats were not the garden variety IOR Racer boats of the day. Farr was really pushing the IOR envelope in a different direction than seemed to be happening elsewhere at that time. These boats were designed basically ignoring IOR rule beating on the theory that a fast boat can beat the penalties simply by being a fast boat. (For example the prototype of my Farr 11.6 beat the IOR 50 footers in the Sydney Hobart boat for boat and corrected to a win in class) So for example one big way that the 1104's were different from IOR boats of the era is that they have a lot of stability for an IOR boat and not a lot of drag. They do not not have the 'three plane" hull form of the IOR and instead have a fair amount of form stability and elliptical cross sections. They do not have the bustle but do have a skeg that helps with tracking (a little) and downwind directional stability. The elliptical hull form and fine entry also gave them a surprisingly comfortable motion for a boat of their 8,500 lb displacement. 
Farr 1104 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

The 1104's have a fractional rig, making them easier to short-hand and a very large SA/D of around 24.3 as compared to the normal IOR 17-18 range. That allows them to get by with non-overlapping headsails for cruising. With a high ballast ratio carried on a deep keel, and moderate form stability, they had the stability to carry that much sail area. Since they do not have the emblematic IOR bustle, or the excessively large mast head spinnakers, so they don't wipe out as easily as most IOR boats and are much more manageable downwind under spinnaker. There are several rigs for the 1104's. The earliest full racing version boats had spaghetti masts and needed running backstays. Those were quickly over-penalized and so the later production racer cruiser versions have a much stiffer spar and do not require runners.

Some of the race versions have the galley at the main bulkhead over the center of buoyancy, and keel where motion is the least. Others have it aft by the companionway. Most have an enclosed head and pretty good storage.

As far as the living aboard and sailing them short handed, these are very forgiving boats for an IOR era boat nut not as forgiving as Farr's cruising boats of this and the following era. (i.e. Farr 11.6 and Farr 1020) but they are not far off of that. I went through some this same thought process when I bought my Farr 11.6. Previously the boat had been raced with a crew of 8 and I was told that it took 8 people to sail one. I race mine single- and double handed and still beat fully crewed race boats pretty easily. I have spoken with people who single and double handed the 11.6's all over the Atlantic with some very heavy weather passages from Capetown to Scotland and Capetown to the Caribbean.

So here's the deal on that, typically these boats were sailed with something like 1,800 to 2,000 lbs of crew and their gear and consumables. If you are carrying supplies down low in the boat, and are not racing, you can still carry roughly that much weight and not hurt safety and minimally impact sailing ability. The key is to develop a sail inventory for that purpose. In my case that meant high modulus sails, that are over reinforced to minimize stretch. They are cut a little full (essentially the leading edge of a genoa) with a lot of headstay sag in lighter air, and are flattened out by lots of backstay and minimal head stay sag in a breeze. This makes a sail that has a very wide wind range with good performance down to almost no wind and that can be carried into 20-25 knots apparent.

The big limitation to these boats as a live aboard is that they are only an 8,500 lb boat. Most boats will tolerate roughly 20-25% of their displacement in carrying capacity for water, fuel, food, spares and so on. While these elliptical hull forms are more tolerant than a heavy displacement round bottom boat (as a percentage of its disp), none the less you will be limited in how much 'stuff' you can put aboard before noticing it. I would think of the carrying capacity as being equal to something like Beneteau 31 or Catalina 34, but with a little more space, a lot more seaworthiness and 60 to 80 second a mile greater speed.

Jeff


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## Seabreasy73 (Oct 18, 2018)

Thanks Jeff. I think the 11.6 is pretty much same inside as the 1104, since there is that big transom/overhang on the 11.6's (at least the ones I've seen). Probably what counts, as you've pointed it out, what might really count is who built the boat. Production boats would probably better for certain. As for carrying capacity, if the boat can carry 8 people wth supplies for a week's cruise, for two people permanently on board probably should suffice.
I wonder if you have any issues, problem areas to look out for. As far as I heard these boats were well engineered and despite going on 40 years old, should have a few decades still left in them.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Seabreasy73 said:


> Thanks Jeff. I think the 11.6 is pretty much same inside as the 1104, since there is that big transom/overhang on the 11.6's (at least the ones I've seen). Probably what counts, as you've pointed it out, what might really count is who built the boat. Production boats would probably better for certain. As for carrying capacity, if the boat can carry 8 people wth supplies for a week's cruise, for two people permanently on board probably should suffice.
> I wonder if you have any issues, problem areas to look out for. As far as I heard these boats were well engineered and despite going on 40 years old, should have a few decades still left in them.


Just to clarify this a little, an 11.6 was actually designed as a cruising boat and not as a racer. They turned out to be very successful race boats. The 11.6 is a 1500 lb heavier boat with quite a bit more water plane and so more carrying capacity, and more stability, but at the price of a little less performance. The 1104 was a designed as a race boat first and a cruiser second. They have a similar interior layout but everything is slightly miniaturized on the 1104, with the port double quarter berth on the 1104 really taking a hit in width, and engine access really diminished on the starboard side.

While the 11.6 does have 9 berths, no one in their right mind would cruise with 8 or 9 people for any length of time. The deal with all those berths were to house three crew members sleeping aft on the windward side in a distance race (hot bunking) or 9 crew members sleeping aboard before or after a day race. When they raced the 11.6 as a one design class in the Capetown to Rio race, they were generally raced with a total of 6 crew members and 3 on deck at any time.

For cruising, you could cruise an 11.6 for a week with 6 good friends (3 couples or two couples and a couple of kids), but that would be tough to do since you would be tearing down the double bunk at the dinette every morning and making it up every night. Sleeping in the pilot berths in port is torturous for an adult.

The 1104 has nowhere near that capacity. They were raced with 6 and I would think that it would be hard to cruise with more than 4. I would think that a couple could cruise one for long periods and might certainly be able to live aboard, although that would be compartively spartan living.

(That said, when I was 23, I lived for a while aboard my 25 foot wooden Folkboat with no interior at all beyond a duck boards for a cabin sole, a bucket for a head, a one burner alcohol stove that I when I used it I placed in on top of the duck board cockpit sole, a 2 gallon water jug and a big salad bowl for a sink. It was basically camping on a floating campsite)

Jeff


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## Seabreasy73 (Oct 18, 2018)

Fair enough. Yes, the 1104 was supposed to be a racer first and a cruiser second. And indeed, these boats were also supposed to be 3800 Kg (just under 8400 Lb), but the ones I have looked tipped the scale at 9435 lbs. Not much, but a 1000 pounds is a 1000 pounds. There is nothing extra on these boats and when I have asked the surveyor, he made the remark that "perhaps it is 3800 Kg without the engine and the basic fitout. Don't know if it is true or not, but certainly there was no other gear on the boat weighing 1000 lb. Anyhow, carried away. So, I suppose there is no real bad reason (obviously what was stated) that these boat should not suffice as coastal cruisers? Would you buy your Farr again?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Seabreasy73 said:


> Fair enough. Yes, the 1104 was supposed to be a racer first and a cruiser second. And indeed, these boats were also supposed to be 3800 Kg (just under 8400 Lb), but the ones I have looked tipped the scale at 9435 lbs. Not much, but a 1000 pounds is a 1000 pounds. There is nothing extra on these boats and when I have asked the surveyor, he made the remark that "perhaps it is 3800 Kg without the engine and the basic fitout. Don't know if it is true or not, but certainly there was no other gear on the boat weighing 1000 lb. Anyhow, carried away. So, I suppose there is no real bad reason (obviously what was stated) that these boat should not suffice as coastal cruisers? Would you buy your Farr again?


The published displacement on these boats are measured per the IOR rule. Under the IOR rule, the boat was measured dead empty....no sails, tools, loose gear, tanks empty and so on.

By way of comparison, my boat has been weighed in normal loading with sails, cruising gear, ground tackle, partially full tanks and so on at a little over 12,000 lbs. But I have had to empty the boat out to haul in a yard with a crane that can only handle 11,000 lbs and have emptied the boat out and ended up well below the 11000 lb weight. But I doubt that she is down to her published design weight of 10,600 lbs.

In talking with the folks at Farr, the.fiberglass New Zealand version of the 11.6 was right at the design weight. The Australian version, which used the same moods was slightly heavier. The South African version (which my boat is a S.A. version) are thought to be even heavier. The cold molded versions vary from pretty close to design weight up to reported 4-500 lbs over weight.

The 1104 began as a version with an extended cockpit and shorter house. Those boats had a comparitively minimal interior. The production boats had a bigger house ,a much more complete interior, and a heavier mast and so probably would be heavier boats than the IOR design weight.

The net result, like any boat, the carrying capacity is reduced to the extent that the IOR level of bare boats exceed thier design weight.

I would absolutely buy another 11.6 in a heartbeat. I consider this to be the perfect boat for the way that I use a boat. I have been extremely impressed with her motion comfort, seaworthiness, forgiveness, ease of handling, and overall performance.

But realistically, there are faster 38 foot boats out there, the interior is slightly Spartan. My boat does not have a water heater or refrigeration, or a separate starting battery, or an oversized alternator. She doesn't have a dodger or Bimini. I wish she had operable portlights over the gallery and nav. Station. I like that she has a Yanmar 3gm30 which is a lighter engine than the original 3cyl Buhk with cheaper parts. I like the 80 gallon water tankage, but don't like that there is only 12-14 gallon fuel tank. (which is large enough for one whole season of sailing for me and has enough fuel for a sistership to sail from South Africa to the Caribbean).

The stock 11.6 IOR style deck plan would have been a real pain to sail short hand. So, I have rearranged the deck plan for single handed racing and cruising. I might want to have running backstays to use in extremely heavier air and maybe a masthead assym with a movable pole for extremely light air.

The other thing that I would say is that these are pretty technical boats to sail. These boats minimally can be thought of as rewarding skillful sailors and perhaps even require a reasonable level of skill to sail since they have a lot of sail area and a huge mainsail. But having sailed my boat in next to no wind, lots of time sailing in 20 knot winds, up to 40 knots plus and have been very impressed at both ends of the wind range.

The 1104 would be less forgiving than the 11.6 and is slower boat, but should be a good costal cruiser for a couple. Depending on how the specific 1104 is equipped this should be a pretty easy boat to handle if you are a skilled sailor.

Jeff


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## Mike Dillon (Jan 17, 2021)

Seabreasy73 said:


> Since there is not much info our there on these great racer/cruisers, I would like to know if anyone has one and uses is as a long range cruiser or lievaboard.
> 
> How well these boats behave off shore and how well these boats take heavier weather? Looking at the specs of this boat on sailboatdata.com, they are very bad for seacomfort. However, what I heard is the opposite, that these cruise and sail comfortably. Has anyone experience with these old IOR 1 tonner boats?


I have owned, occasionally lived aboard, cruised and sometimes raced a 1977 Farr 1104 "Faraway" (ex Honky Cat" built in Auckland) that I bought in 1979. As and ex sailboat salesman (CAL, Baltic others) I have found the 1104 to be an extraordinary design. Reaching in medium to heavy air is its forte. I can only judge seaworthiness by what I have done and first hand descriptions of sailors I have met. In the Gulfstream I have sailed her in what amounted to an 8' chop. Very closely spaced and steep! She was a champ but the was wind to keep her moving. That fine entry cuts through that stuff effortlessly. No place to be in a power boat! A lady acquaintance who crewed on a new AMEL 50 with my wife and I in Transatlantic passage in April last year lived through a cyclone between Tasman and Auckland on a Farr 1104. Not sure she has any fond memories but she an all crew survived. A friend who joined Paul Whitings' boat sadly did not. Boat and crew were tragically lost in this storm. Hard and inappropriate to claim much of anything specific except that the boat made it.
A captain I was working with in Tahiti sailed a similar boat (Farr 38) out of Cape Town. He recalled being out when winds got up to about 60 knots. He said they sailed home on the storm jib only with no problem.
After 40 years of sailing her I think I have more of a feel for the design than most. No boat is perfect but the 1104 was a trend setter for many modern designs. Very wide stern, fine entry and 3/4 rig was a dinghy thing. Farr said she sailed with most IOR Two Tonners of the time. I have found it a design I never get bored with. Accommodations are simple, cockpit is enormous, handling great with large main and fore triangle more like that of most 30' masthead boats. As with a multihull, you don't want to laod her down too much. There are reasonably minor build issues and I have peeled, dried and vinyl ester / epoxy bottomed her for blisters a decade ago. Rig needs a jumper strut in my opinion and I always have spectra runners fitted and ready although rarely need them except for pointing higher. Capsize numbers categorize the 1104 as a Coastal Cruiser but real world experience indicates she is much more. 
My boat did the 77 Auckland to Suva race (1140 miles) before I owned her. They saw about 50 to 60 knots of wind. She finished around 30th. in the fleet.
Mike Dillon


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Seabreasy73 said:


> Since there is not much info our there on these great racer/cruisers, I would like to know if anyone has one and uses is as a long range cruiser or lievaboard.


I guess it depends on what you mean by "cruising" but I don't think I'd consider any older boat with a balsa cored bottom for my kind of cruising.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

As designed, the 1104's don't have balsa cored hulls at all. They had an uncored hull stiffened by complex series of transverse frames and longitudinal stringers. Some do not even have cored decks.

Jeff


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> As designed, the 1104's don't have balsa cored hulls at all. They had an uncored hull stiffened by complex series of transverse frames and longitudinal stringers. Some do not even have cored decks.
> 
> Jeff


My mistake.


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## Mike Dillon (Jan 17, 2021)

boatpoker said:


> My mistake.


The 1104s are solid laminate hulls as others have described in detail. Decks are balsa on production models. Mine is early Kiwi by Glass Yachts in Auckland. Osmosis is probably more of a concern as opening, drying and epoxying balsa is commonly done. My 1104 required a full peel to dry out. Did the vinyl ester resin followed by epoxy and E glass laminates for what was peeled, Two laminates peeled approximately and three replaced (allows for sanding and a little more strength). There other major to dos for a 40 year old boat anyone aspires to buy but the end product is a fast seaworthy machine easily handled alone or by a couple. Being in the winch business I've oversized the sheet winches. These boats are well respected and relatively inexpensive Downunder. Rare to see one available in any condition Stateside. Mike Dillon


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Mike Dillon said:


> The 1104s are solid laminate hulls as others have described in detail. Decks are balsa on production models. Mine is early Kiwi by Glass Yachts in Auckland. Osmosis is probably more of a concern as opening, drying and epoxying balsa is commonly done. My 1104 required a full peel to dry out. Did the vinyl ester resin followed by epoxy and E glass laminates for what was peeled, Two laminates peeled approximately and three replaced (allows for sanding and a little more strength). There other major to dos for a 40 year old boat anyone aspires to buy but the end product is a fast seaworthy machine easily handled alone or by a couple. Being in the winch business I've oversized the sheet winches. These boats are well respected and relatively inexpensive Downunder. Rare to see one available in any condition Stateside. Mike Dillon


You are correct about not many in the US. I only know of two 1104's presently in the US (east coast) and both are cold-molded wood rather than production glass boats. There was a glass production 1104 on the Chesapeake that I looked at, but it went to the Canadian side of the Great Lakes probably 25 or more years ago. There were (are) a number of Farr's early custom one-tonners in the US (Jenny and Mr. Jumpa I believe are still here)

The 1970's was the worst period for blisters world wide and so the blister problem you describe would be typical of almost any boat from that period, rather than being unique to the 1104's.

Jeff


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## Mike Dillon (Jan 17, 2021)

Jeff_H said:


> You are correct about not many in the US. I only know of two 1104's presently in the US (east coast) and both are cold-molded wood rather than production glass boats. There was a glass production 1104 on the Chesapeake that I looked at, but it went to the Canadian side of the Great Lakes probably 25 or more years ago. There were (are) a number of Farr's early custom one-tonners in the US (Jenny and Mr. Jumpa I believe are still here)
> 
> The 1970's was the worst period for blisters world wide and so the blister problem you describe would be typical of almost any boat from that period, rather than being unique to the 1104's.
> 
> Jeff


Agreed. The green 1104 in San Diego was probably Huckleberry Frog, a glass production model. Saw her sailing when I was living in SoCal. Was going very cheap but needed a lot. Could have been a good starting point for someone with a moderate budget. There is a stripped 38/11.6 in St. Maarten for 20 odd thousand. Monique. an early Farr 42 from late 70s was for sale for a long time in the Bay Area also. 30k or so. The 1220 is a great later evolution of these yachts but also rare here. Fine one on Yachtworld for 150k. The bargains are in Aussie or Auckland.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I'm not entering the discussion on the technical aspects of these boats as the above members know far more about them than I do.
But I would like to chime in on long distance cruising / round the world / long term living aboard etc

In my time floating in the cruising community I have met a number of people on old racing boats now used as cruisers.
The basic trade-off is a fast boat Vs comfort.
An example was a couple who had a Santa Cruz 50 with a completely bare interior. She had to shower in the cockpit which she didn't like in marinas. Nor would I. They had a galley-ette, toilet-ette and 50 feet of interior formica. I have a kitchen, two bathrooms, cabins and a large lounge room. On a passage I could start today and they could start next week and still beat me.
I met them in Tonga and kept bumping into them through Indonesia and Thailand.

I next saw them in the Caribbean on their next boat... a cruising catamaran with a kitchen, multiple bathrooms with showers and hot water, huge lounge and more bedrooms than you could shake a stick at.

Comfort Ratio is _not_ *MCR = DISP / (.65*BEAM4/3(.7*LWL+.3*LOA))* 
Comfort is being warm and dry while you shake your Martini (with ice-cubes) entertaining friends who are not agog of your using a bucket as a toilet.



Mark


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## Mike Dillon (Jan 17, 2021)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I'm not entering the discussion on the technical aspects of these boats as the above members know far more about them than I do.
> But I would like to chime in on long distance cruising / round the world / long term living aboard etc
> 
> In my time floating in the cruising community I have met a number of people on old racing boats now used as cruisers.
> ...


Didn't buy my 1104 for comfort. Bought it for speed and seaworthiness. Have never been disappointed. Some comfort additions came as I aged. Full length boat cover replaces air conditioning in Florida. Never breaks down, removes for the occasional race and can be easily and quickly removed and repaired. Harken roller furler is great. Used hank on for decades. Really only need two headsails in Florida/Bahamas on this fractional rig - 100% and 135%. Other sources of speed asymmetrical etc. Came back from Bimini (to Fort Lauderdale, 48nm) in a little over 6 hours with full main, 135 genoa and on autopilot! Average something like 7.5 kts. Broad reach, Wind was in low teens pretty steadily. Had to drop a reef in to head up the last few miles to FLL. Could have done this faster on a close reach but not on the pilot. So I guess I do seek some comfort. Course I am not trying to go around the world. Mike Dillon


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## Mike Wallis (Oct 31, 2021)

My 1104 is a 1976 NZ production model. Comfortable interior for a 45 yr old boat. During it life its raced all over the pacific. Now its retired from racing and just cruising.
Previous owner had a major bottom job done as the blisters were bad. 
still use hank on head sails and seldom use anything bigger than the #3

my biggest complaint is the head door is so small, but that probably means im too big.

she handles big seas well.


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