# severe deck crazing repair cost



## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

Hi all,

I'm buying a boat in need of a number of repairs. One of the projects I will be doing is refinishing the severely crazed deck gelcoat. I'm trying to wrap my head around the cost of this project. The crazing appears non-structural (cracks don't emanate from the genny tracks, etc.) and involves only the (formerly) glossy portions of the deck and cockpit, not the non-skid. There are a few deep cracks, which will need to be "Veed" out and filled with epoxy. For the rest, I'm hoping to sand, apply 2 coats of epoxy, then pay the yard to paint it with LPU. By doing much of the prep myself (including removal of deck hardware), I'm hoping to significantly decrease the cost of the job. 

Is this pie in the sky, or is my logic sound? 

Thanks for the help.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

IMHO forget trying to repair it.

I have a similar situation on a much older boat and the problem almost certainly is the result of a fault in the original lay up. Any attempt to repair it by veeing out the cracks may fix things for a short while but the cracks will return and you may make things worse by introducing new stress raisers.

This was the advice from my surveyor and glass work pro.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

adding more thickness to the already to thick gelcoat will make them comeback even faster. but not as fast as it will empty your bank account. if you have already bought the boat then sail it for while before you decide to try to repair.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Cleaning out and filling, even if you drill small holes at the ends to stop the crack from spreading, still leaves you needing a complete deck repaint to hide the cracks. And that means removing and later replacing and rebidding all the deck hardware, a long job needing a helper above/below deck as well. An expensive job for a shop because of the labor involved.

If you are contemplating that, better to "paint" over with a rubbery non-skid coating, which at least stands a chance of not showing the new cracks as they continue to form. Or, one of those "Chia Deck" kits that they sell on late night tv.(G)


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

I like the chia deck! It'll be like a "green roof" on the boat!

Seriously, this isn't fixable? I thought sanding, a few coats of epoxy, and painting would fix the problem. It sounds like this will continue to worsen as time passes regardless of intervention?

Thanks


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Anything is fixable. But if the gelcoat is brittle, or stiffer than the underlying frp, any flexing or impact loads can cause more cracking. If you had a professional shop doing all the work, I would still doubt they would guarantee no more cracks to develop. (If I'm wrong about that, get the guarantee in writing & give them the job.(G)

The problem is not about fixing the cracks, but in the significant cost of repainting the deck (with uninstalling & reinstalling everything on it) and then putting *that* to waste if it keeps cracking.

If you wanted to gamble, maybe grind out and refinish the cracks, and then wait a year to see if the deck is stable or if new cracks continue to form. And hold off on the painting until you know that. If they continue to form...rubbery antiskid over them, or one of the "fake teak" products that will also prevent any cracks from telegraphing through.


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## captjcook (Sep 27, 2008)

The real fix is to grind off all gelcoat and lay on a new layer of fiberglass, fair then Lpu. It's a good bit of work but the only true cure...chasing recurring stress cracks is never ending.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Patching the cracks without correcting the cause will not change anything. As someone already said, the cause was with the original layup, most likely too much gelcoat or improperly catalysed gelcoat.
Only sure (mostly) fix is to remove it and start again..... not financially practical.
Call it "character" and go sailing.


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## daledog (Oct 16, 2009)

You could also sand off the gelcoat (through the cracks to glass...you could paint over non-cracked properly prepped gelcoat.) This provided the cracks were age/ not stress related. They could have been the result of some quirk in the original construction. Hard to know. So you could use an AwlGrip or Awlcraft paint (which I've heard one is more repairable than the other down the road...anyone ever used either and care to enlighten me on that?)...It does a beautiful job. I have the same thing on my Tartan 37 I'll eventually address. I'll probably use (I think it's Awlcraft) the one more repairable...


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## captjcook (Sep 27, 2008)

Awlcraft 2000 is spray only, won't work well for griptex/non-skid areas. The underlying problem must be addressed. As a guess the gel was overcatylized making it brittle...a systematic failure. It will continue to stress crack in new places as well. If the layup is the culprit a new layer of glass will strengthen. No quick fix...go sailing and have fun...it does not have to look like a Ferrari paint job...it's a boat to be used and enjoy!
In other words I agree with boatpoker on this...


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

Here's a pic of what I'm talking about. These are not stress-point cracks, but rather diffuse "egg-shelling" or "alligatoring". 

Boat Poker: Does this change your opinion, or is your prognosis the same?

Thank you for your help!


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

StephenMaturin said:


> Here's a pic of what I'm talking about. These are not stress-point cracks, but rather diffuse "egg-shelling" or "alligatoring".
> 
> Boat Poker: Does this change your opinion, or is your prognosis the same?
> 
> Thank you for your help!


Stephen... Those are spider cracks and not unusual to see that in almost new boats as well... I had these spider cracks also and what I did was to get spider crack filling primer paint and apply two coats one after another with lite sanding in between then paint with a two part poly or one part poly deck paint... You'll like the look and it'll make your deck much nicer to look at... follow up with a nice wax buff job. Any areas needing the required anti-slip paint can be done after the poly paint. Any 'real cracks' that are deep I would 'v-groove' it with a dremel tool and fill in with gel coat/epoxy and sand smooth prior to primer coat.

PrimeKote is the product I used... then I used Petit Top Deck paints.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

StephenMaturin said:


> Here's a pic of what I'm talking about. These are not stress-point cracks, but rather diffuse "egg-shelling" or "alligatoring".
> 
> Boat Poker: Does this change your opinion, or is your prognosis the same?
> 
> Thank you for your help!


Sorry to say ..... No. If you do repair this properly it is money out the window. You'll get back 5-10 cents on the dollar upon resale.


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

Well, dang. The truth hurts. Thanks for the help.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

One of the main reasons I bought my Boat was the condition of the Gelcoat, only minor stress cracks around a couple of lifeline stanchions easily repairable after adding some support so it wont happen again. With so many used boats out there unless you don't mind how it looks and after reducing the purchase price by the cost of a professional repair then consider it. I have seen MUCH worse that will never get fixed.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Maturin, was this boat on the Sail California's docks about 3-4 years ago? If so, The Sabre people said that the problem was cosmetic and the result of a too thick gelcote layer being applied during the layup process. I was most concerned about the cracks radiating from T-track holes and sharp curves. My surveyor said that it would cost in the neighborhood of $20k for Svendsen's to dremel out the cracks and re-gelcote. Needless to say, the seller wouldn't give me any relief on the price.


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

GeorgeB,

No, I don't think its the same boat, but I do think its the same problem. No cracks at the tracks, just more of the stuff in the picture. What surveyor did you use?


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Your pic shows severe 'alligatoring' of the gelcoat. 
If you want to 'fix' it permanently or even paint over it, the gelcoat will have to be completely removed.

The cause is usually severe oxidation plus poor adhesion of the gelcoat to the below matting layer. Probably caused by spraying the gelcoat too thickly into the mold and then letting it cure (overnight or longer) before applying the 'next' cosmetic matting layers .... an old obsolete method of gelcoat + FRG matting, etc. application. 

Run away.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Nonsense... all nonsense...

Stephen... BoatUS has some good suggestions and why not... they insure boats!

Gelcoat Crazing by Don Casey - BoatTECH - BoatUS

Exactly as I mentioned in my last reply.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

guitarguy56 said:


> Nonsense... all nonsense...
> 
> Stephen... BoatUS has some good suggestions and why not... they insure boats!
> 
> ...


and did he mention how that would double the cost of the boat and add no real resale value. and those cracks are not from flexing and are caused just as RichH said.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

overbored said:


> and did he mention how that would double the cost of the boat and add no real resale value. and those cracks are not from flexing and are caused just as RichH said.


Don't know... ask the OP as I'm not sure he's selling the boat yet... he's only asking how to repair the crazing?


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

RichH said:


> Your pic shows severe 'alligatoring' of the gelcoat.
> If you want to 'fix' it permanently or even paint over it, the gelcoat will have to be completely removed.
> 
> The cause is usually severe oxidation plus poor adhesion of the gelcoat to the below matting layer. Probably caused by spraying the gelcoat too thickly into the mold and then letting it cure (overnight or longer) before applying the 'next' cosmetic matting layers .... an old obsolete method of gelcoat + FRG matting, etc. application.
> ...


So, it seems that there is some significantly disparate information out there. Don Casey makes this sound repairable. RichH and Boatpoker make it sound like the boat is totaled. Whats the deal? Can someone please explain why it is not feasible to sand the gelcoat, paint with epoxy primer, then paint as Casey suggests? (see original post) I understand that if this were structural, the cracks would reoccur without reinforcement. If it is due to crappy original gelcoating + oxidation, why would it reoccur?

Thanks.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

it can be done but like RichH said you will have to remove the gelcoat completely and fair with epoxy filler and high build epoxy primer and then paint or remove the gelcoat and spray new gelcoat, either will cost a boat load of money. You could sand and primer and paint but most likely the cracks will come back in time. that will only cost slightly less then a boat load of money. if you are really interested in the cost of this repair on the boat have a yard look at it and get an estimate. the yard will be glade to get the work as they can use your boat to teach the new guys, because a job that big will keep them busy for a couple of weeks sanding and prepping and then the painter will get to do more practice painting. oh and then there is the spray booth fee and the has-mat fees.


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

Allright, allright, uncle.

I am assuming y'all have some experience with this and aren't just repeating dock lore. Thank you for the advice (and time and money saved). I owe you all a beer. A beer we will drink at a bar rather than floating on my new boat.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

StephenMaturin said:


> So, it seems that there is some significantly disparate information out there. Don Casey makes this sound repairable. RichH and Boatpoker make it sound like the boat is totaled. Whats the deal? Can someone please explain why it is not feasible to sand the gelcoat, paint with epoxy primer, then paint as Casey suggests? (see original post) I understand that if this were structural, the cracks would reoccur without reinforcement. If it is due to crappy original gelcoating + oxidation, why would it reoccur?
> 
> Thanks.


It is possible, if you sand off the gelcoat. but the cost is extreme and virtually no value added to the boat. No payback other than personal satisfaction. If you enjoy doing the work or like writing big cheques, go for it.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/43027-post2.html

This will be my last post regarding this subject... Good luck.


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## AdrenalineJunkie (Sep 23, 2012)

The cause of diffuse spider cracks in older gelcoat (very common in boats more than fifteen years old, even quality boats like Boston Whalers and especially if lots of UV exposure or temperature variation is involved) is spraying the gelcoat on too thick in the mold at production. It is generally applied in three 10 mil layers, and a good bit of this is sanded off to produce a glossy finish. Gelcoat contracts and expands at a different rate than the underlying fiberglass lamination and when it is too thick it eventually cracks due to these cycles. Unfortunately, in a production facility there is about one supervisor per 30 hungover low paid employees therefore precise technique is sometimes lacking or someone just thinks "more is better." 

It is common for yards to charge in the range of $400 per foot or more to redo gelcoat because it is labor intensive, which is why it may prove cost prohibitive to have someone else do it. The materials are not overly expensive, check out how cheap a five gallon container of white gelcoat can be obtained at US Composite (about $250 with shipping.) 

The cracks usually run all the way down to the laminate. When not sanded out completely, they will "print through" paint or gelcoat and may even recur, but still look a heck of a lot better. If you have access to a 5 HP or higher compressor it isn't that bad a job to remove the impaired gelcoat with an "air hog." Dynabrade makes great dual action (DA) sanders with a lifetime guarantee for about $150 that don't put gouges and swirls in the hull. A 3/8" orbit model can sand very aggressively and the tool won't die of dust ingestion on the first day. Use aggressive grit, such as 60 but start with 80 or 120 to get the feel of the process and not cause a lot of damage during the learning curve. The gelcoat is probably already pretty thin on an older hull as you lose another 2 or 3 mil each time you compound the gelcoat to remove oxidation. 

Now that you are becoming comfortable with gelcoat after spending days and days sanding it and removing deck hardware, why not re-gelcoat? Five gallons is a LOT of gelcoat and far cheaper than the best paint, more durable and actually easier to work with if you can read instructions and are comfortable with being an autodidact. Just a lot more elbow grease during the finishing process (maybe four times as much.) Spraying gelcoat is tough, you will clog up a few guns until you figure it out. Rolling it on is also acceptable but leads to a lot of orange peel and even more sanding. Use cheap spray guns ($18 at Harbor Freight) with at least a 2.0 mm tip. Mix only 500 cc or less so you can get it sprayed before it hardens, using disposable cups on the gun. Read lots about gelcoat and watch a few videos such as Boatworks Today produces. 

If you can save your nonskid areas, leave them alone. Painting or spraying gel over them makes them skid instead of nonskid without adding abrasives in the final coat.

This is intimidating for most people to ponder as a DIY project. Compressor, air hog, protective gear such as a full face-mask $200 respirator, $250 of gelcoat, $30 of PVA, polyester glazes, a $200 buffer and $30 per bottle 3M products to finish the gelcoat to a shine... you get the idea. Not as easy or inexpensive as selling the boat you don't like to someone that likes it the way it is and buying one in the condition you desire. 

Sorry for the rambling, it is tough to condense a complex process into a brief overview without proper caffeination.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

StephenMaturin said:


> So, it seems that there is some significantly disparate information out there. Don Casey makes this sound repairable. RichH and Boatpoker make it sound like the boat is totaled. Whats the deal? Can someone please explain why it is not feasible to sand the gelcoat, paint with epoxy primer, then paint as Casey suggests? (see original post) I understand that if this were structural, the cracks would reoccur without reinforcement. If it is due to crappy original gelcoating + oxidation, why would it reoccur?
> 
> Thanks.


Repetitive and continual thermal cycling of the gel surface is what has led to the alligatoring/cracking condition of the 'too thick' gel.

Unless you remove the bulk of the thickness of the gel and then restore with either new gel or paint (paint over an epoxide) those 'cracks and 'shrinkage' of the alligatoring will continue to expand. In severe cases, those teeny 'brittle little cracked islands' will entirely loosen and fall off when the adhesion to the matting layer is totally lost. The smaller the 'alligator islands' the greater probability of total loss of adhesion - historically Taiwanese built boats of the '70s have the greatest long term problem with 'alligatoring' and gelcoat 'pop-out'.

This was a quite common general occurrence of FRG boats in the early days of gel coated fiberglass and virtually disappeared when the lay-up crews: .... drained the air compressor each day, the compressors became 'oil free', they used 'comb-depth gages' to ensure that the gel wasn't applied 'too thick', manufacturers began to perform the lay-up construction in a CONTINUOUS process (in refrigerated molds) so that there would be no discontinuities in the laminate structure due to 'curing' between the gel and the matting, between the matting and the roving portions. 
Some of the 'prime' boat builders are using air compressors with 'air dryers' to produce at least 32° dew point compressed air for gel and matting layer application or even paint application to ensure that interfaces between the laminate/gel surface are essentially water/humidity-free and which the entire structure cures continuously and homogeneously.

Alligatoring of the gel coat was a very common problem during the 1960s and 1970s, especially for Taiwanese and other 'start up' boatyards that did not have fully developed laminating expertise (also a good reason for 'blisters' below the waterline). The problem of alligatoring would appear about 15-20 years _after_ the boat was built.

You don't have to _entirely_ remove the cracked gelcoat to affect a 'stable' repair by then overcoating with epoxy or epoxy primer and then re-gelcoating or painting. Just 'grind' down until you are sure that _most_ the old gel is very well thinned/removed, then coat with Cabo-sil or fumed silica filled (thixotropic) epoxy, wet-sand to flat perfection, then ... your choice of either paint or new gel. I prefer to spray new gel for 'best' service life and longevity.

Gelcoat removal and restoration is a horrendous (DIY) or insanely expensive job. If you don't remove 'most' of the thickness of the cracked alligatored gel ..... you'll be repeating the agony and expense a few years after the remaining gel continues to alligator and crack, especially if the boat is kept in 'warmer' climates.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Rich... good article but how does this pertain to this 1999 Pearson? I'm sure Pearson would have resolved these issues a long time ago... or maybe they haven't and all these Pearson boats are suspect for this poor gel coat application? I really don't believe this but I'm no expert here. It is up to the OP to determine if this particular Pearson is worth the investment of his time or the resources to completely remove the gel coat (not really required) or simply sand, primer, paint the deck and get 'use' out of this vessel.

Glad I own a lowly production Hunter sailboat that doesn't have these gel coat issues.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

StephenMaturin said:


> Allright, allright, uncle.
> 
> I am assuming y'all have some experience with this and aren't just repeating dock lore. Thank you for the advice (and time and money saved). I owe you all a beer. A beer we will drink at a bar rather than floating on my new boat.


We're not trying to talk you out of buying a Boat, just advise on this particular issue. Like I've said before there are a LOT of used Boats out there this might be the one for you but we are not cheerleaders we are guys that have seen and done all the things we talk about and know the added variables associated with repairs simple and complex.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

guitarguy56 said:


> Rich... good article but how does this pertain to this *1999 Pearson*? I'm sure Pearson would have resolved these issues a long time ago... or maybe they haven't and all these Pearson boats are suspect for this poor gel coat application? I really don't believe this but I'm no expert here. It is up to the OP to determine if this particular Pearson is worth the investment of his time or the resources to completely remove the gel coat (not really required) or simply sand, primer, paint the deck and get 'use' out of this vessel.


The Pearsons were indeed 'masters' of FRG construction. The gelcoat on most Pearsons was quite thin. 
Nevertheless, if gelcoat (porosity) isn't constantly 'sealed' with wax, the wax 'stripped' off occasionally, the boat is kept in high UV areas (FL, Gulf Coast, etc.) .... such alligatoring and lifting is the probable endpoint of most _un-cared for_ gelcoat, .... and most LPU and '2 part' catalyzed paints too.

The secret for longevity of gelcoat seems to be regular waxing and polishing to remove the surface oxidation, and occasional flat sanding and power buffing .... but not so aggressively so as to 'hog down' into that 20-30 mill gelcoat thickness. Oxidation of such coatings is most probably an exponential process, unless the oxidation is retarded or removed when its still minor. 
To me, 'alligatoring' is a severe example of an oxidation process - with both gelcoat and with 'paint'.

FWIW - I had a 1970s Pearson, the gel regularly 'maintained', and the boat still looked _show-room new_ when I sold it 25 years later.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Primekote and a couple of cans of Petit or your favorite deck paints are really inexpensive (under $80) and lots of time sanding on ones part to obtain something of a decent deck without all the crazing. It may not last the lifetime of the boat but if it lasts 3-5 years definitely worth the effort. Whether it adds 'value' to the boat probably not... it will be up to the surveyor to see the crazing beneath the deck paint if it doesn't show up, of course a good surveyor will spot this defect in the gel coat?


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## nhsail (Aug 7, 2000)

An old enough (> 30 yrs) boat exposed to enough thermal cycling & UV will have gelcoat crazing. Its ugly, but only problematic in that you can get water into your cabin/deck through the cracks. Keeping the gelcoat waxed, buffed, at stable temperature in the dark may slow the craing, but is not too practical for a boat that is used in the sun. 

Best solution is to remove the gelcoat, (peel it, don't grind) and then build a new surface with thin layup and fairing compound, multiple 545 primers and then Awlgrip it. 

It's a major job, so for most production boats, just not worth the investment. 
You should probably do your topsides as well, and by now you should have already done the bottom and barrier coated it. 

Last quotes I had were ~$800/ft back in 2006 ($32k for 40' boat) with an over the winter haulout at the factory yard in Maine, and about half of that in Baddeck, NS, again with an over the winter haul and a 4 day delivery to get there. 

We will probably take this on in a few years depending on the costs, and may find a yard that is less busy/inland to do the work, rather than paying for a "mast up" haul out, as you would want to remove all deck hardware anyway, and do this inside to reduce the grit in the finish.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

I guessed I missed something here. Well, flamesuit on.

- Pearsons normally have pretty good gelcoat - and thick. Well, my 1980 Pearson does, and most others I have seen at that vintage have both quality and thickness. As RichH said, with a little love they will still look great after 30 years+.

- As for the crazing, a lot depends on what you want to do. And how long you want it to last. I did a job a few years back on a Santana 22, loads of crazing, in some places actual cracks down to the 'glass. But the gelcoat was well adhered. So I gave it a rough sanding, a thorough cleaning, filled holes, and put on 2 coats of Primekote (light sanding between) and 2-3 coats of Perfection. It's been a few years, and it still looks fabulous (apart from some slightly imperfect painting in parts!!)

- I love nonskid. Buy nonskid paint - I have had good results with Interdeck on a number of boats - fills cracks, does not have to be that level as you don't need a gloss finish. So slop it on and replace as necessary.

Now if you have a heritage boat you want to keep for 20+ years - or if you have unlimited funds and demand perfection - this approach may not be for you. But if you want to go sailing and not spend a fortune, it'll probably look great for 5-10 years.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

paul323 said:


> - As for the crazing, a lot depends on what you want to do. And how long you want it to last. I did a job a few years back on a Santana 22, loads of crazing, in some places actual cracks down to the 'glass. But the gelcoat was well adhered. So I gave it a rough sanding, a thorough cleaning, filled holes, and put on 2 coats of Primekote (light sanding between) and 2-3 coats of Perfection. It's been a few years, and it still looks fabulous (apart from some slightly imperfect painting in parts!!)
> 
> ...if you want to go sailing and not spend a fortune, it'll probably look great for 5-10 years.


Exactly what I was referring to...


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## oldragbaggers (Dec 6, 2005)

paul323 said:


> - As for the crazing, a lot depends on what you want to do. And how long you want it to last. I did a job a few years back on a Santana 22, loads of crazing, in some places actual cracks down to the 'glass. But the gelcoat was well adhered. So I gave it a rough sanding, a thorough cleaning, filled holes, and put on 2 coats of Primekote (light sanding between) and 2-3 coats of Perfection. It's been a few years, and it still looks fabulous (apart from some slightly imperfect painting in parts!!)
> 
> Now if you have a heritage boat you want to keep for 20+ years - or if you have unlimited funds and demand perfection - this approach may not be for you. But if you want to go sailing and not spend a fortune, it'll probably look great for 5-10 years.


This.......


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