# Westerly



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hello,

I have an option to buy either a

Westerly Centaur (1970) 26 foot, stock, with a Volvo 16 HP for $13,000

OR

Westerly Centaur (1971), 26 foot,
NEW Volvo 20 HP with some custom work in the cabin and cockpit for $25,000.

I am having a hard time deciding which would be the better buy.

I would like to not spend too much money now but am worried that the engine
could end up costing me $12,000 (CAD) in the end anyhow.

any input would be great!


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## ndsailor (May 17, 2001)

You have more to check than only the engine. Sails, rigging, moisture content in the hull,... In my opinion, you can save money by purchasing the 1970 after having the engine checked by a professional if all other things seem equal. Even if you have to repower, at least you will know you have a new engine. I can''t imagine spending $25000 on "any" Centaur...and I like Centaurs. You must be in the UK or Canada...Eh?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Yes, I am from Canada, how did you guess? LOL 

$25,000 CAD converts to approx $15,000 USD. From what I have seen for sale this doesn''t seem too high?

I guess my main question is both being fairly equal boats except for the custom work done on the 1971 model, which is better, saving the money now or heading into problems later with an older engine, and having to pay for it then? I know there are many boats of all models out there and very few have new engines... 

One thing I would look forward to with the less expensive boat is the chance to customize it myself, where as the other one has a lot done already (in someone elses taste). 

I saw some of your pictures, ndsailor, and I love what you have done with your boat! 

Regards,
Kelly


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## ndsailor (May 17, 2001)

The tip off was the price of the Westerly., much higher dollar figure in the UK or Canada. You can see larger pictures of "Levara" at vintagesail.com . We purchased her because of the new rigging, engine and sails., then were able to fit out the interior and exterior to our taste, as you mentioned, and it was well worth the effort.....Rick


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Yes, $15,000 USD seems way to high even for one in extremely nice condition. We are talking about a 31 year old 26 footer with mediocre sailing ability. I would expect a boat like that to be well under $10K USD. In that price range a boat with a new inboard engine means that the owner has more in the boat than its worth in any kind of fair and balanced marketplace. 

I am not sure that buying a beat up sistership makes any more sense though. You can expect to find some ''issues'' with any boat this age. Unless very well maintained and updated by a previous owner, you might expect to need to address some combination of the following items, and in the worst case these can easily exceed several times over the value of the boat fixed up. 

·	Sails, chainplates, mast step and associated suporting structure, standing and running rigging that are beyond their useful lifespan, 
·	an engine that is in need of rebuild or replacement, 
·	worn out or out of date deck, galley, and head hardware, 
·	worn out upholstery, 
·	electronics that are non operational, or in need of updating, 
·	electrical and plumbing systems that need repairs, upgrades to modern standards or replacement.
·	Blister, fatigue, rudder, hull deck joint or deck coring problems
·	Keel bolt replacement (bolt on keel) or delamination of the hull from the ballast for a glassed in keel. 
·	And perhaps a whole range of aesthetic issues. 

Jeff


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## ndsailor (May 17, 2001)

Jeff, I really appreciate all the good advice you give to us, but sometimes people buy boats without regard to re-sale value. If someone wants a vintage style boat, for whatever reason, they are just not around anymore in like new condition. You do indeed end up spending more on upgrades than the boat is worth... the payoff, however, is in getting the exact boat you want in top notch condition.....regards....Rick


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jeff,
God blessya'', but what would you say if it were a 31 year old Farr design???????

Dennis L.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Akacake,
Figure this, a brand new Yanmar 20 horse would cost 7k or so.(USD). a brand new Vetus 20 horse would run about 4k USD. Seems to me, the more expensive boat isn''t worth it just because of the new power and some "custom" interior work that was probably all labor anyway.

Dennis L.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thank you all for all your input, we appreciate it. We havn''t made a firm decision as to which boat, even IF we are going to buy the Westerly or not. We are first time sailboat buyers and will be first time sailors. We are currently enrolled in the Canadian Power and Sail squadron course ( starting soon) and will no doubt need lots of lessons when we actually acquire our sailboat! 
We are interested in the Westerly as we have small children and would like something more stable than fast. 
I hope we can make a decision in the next few months as to what we are going to buy....but the looking is a lot of fun too!!

Akacake


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I am not sure Bruce Farr was designing production boats 31 years ago, but even so, a 26 foot mid-70''s era Farr would be worth something well under $10,000. My 15 year old 28 foot Farr was only worth somewhere around $18K in extremely good condition. 

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi Jeff
I wasn''t suprised to find your post at a topic on a " 26 year old boat with mediocre sailing ability " and "a boat like that " and pretty much the rest of it. 
I''m curious as to why you feel you have to jump in and trash someones pride ond joy like that.No... I know why. It''s your bias again. The one that leaves people with the impression that if it''s not a racing sled it''s junk. 
Somtimes Jeff you should just keep it to yourself.
My friend Adam says:
" A good boat floats and a bad boat sinks "

Dennis L.


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## ddebruin (Nov 13, 2001)

Actually, I have appreciated Jeff''s unbiased opinion. It does not seem to me that he trashes anyone''s dream but talks about the realities of what is. I want to buy the best boat for me. Not based on some mindless process but one that is based on knowledge that each sailing purchase decision for most of us is a compromise, since we can''t afford to put the 500k down on our real dream. I would rather someone had the knowledge and willingness to let me know the good, bad and otherwise so I can make a wise compromise. Also, I think that Jeff is clear on his biases. He has never tried to hide the fact that he likes certain types of boats better than others. 

So, Jeff, I for one want you to keep being honest then let us make the choices based what you share and of course what others say too.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

dandebruin, 
First sentance:
no comment
second sentance:
I happen to like westerlys, and alot of other " slow and old boats". I''m sorry, but I feel offended. Thats the reality of what is.
third and forth sentance:
I agree ,but ,do you base your dream boat on how large or how expensive it is?
Fifth sentance"
I don''t disagree, however, it''s not what is said, it''s how and when it''s said. And if it''s even said at all!
sixth and seventh:
I never said he wasn''t.
I never said he did, but sometimes his post''s are so strong, they''ll knock me over. That isn''t what my comments were about.
last:
I think thats sweet , you sticking up for him and everything, but you jumping in here like you''ve done makes me think that you don''t think Jeff can stick up for himself. Besides, you''ve missed the point.

Dennis L.


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## ndsailor (May 17, 2001)

Come on Dennis, have a little thicker skin. I used to be upset by Jeff''s comments on vintage sailboats but came to the conclusion that we are just looking at two different sides of the same coin. There have been a lot of posts by Jeff that I really learned from....Finally, to quote Don Casey, "Never let anyone talk you out of buying a sailboat you like simply because it is slow." To that I would add, "Never let anyone talk you out of buying a sailboat simply because they think its a bad investment. If that were the case, there wouldn''t be anyone sailing at all....and there wouldn''t be any vintage boats on the water...All of us out there on our sailboats have alot in common, but we also all see something different in our boats and in ourselves as to what we like and dislike about sailing and the boats we sail in. I, for one, am fascinated by the many different types of sailboats, I could look at sailboats, inside and out , for days on end and never tire of it, even the ugly ones arouse my curiosity though I could never own an ugly boat, no matter how fast it sailed. I love Centaurs and plan on having my 32 year old boat for many more years to come., I know I''ll never be able to sell it for the money I have invested in it, but thats not going to stop me from upgrading its equipment......Rick


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Dennis 

I have no intention of getting into another debate with you about my philosophy of posting on this Forum. When I comment on boats I try to look at them relative to the period in which they were built and on an objective scale relative to more modern and more traditional designs. 

You have chosen to take my comments "a 26 year old boat with mediocre sailing ability " and "a boat like that " out of the context that they were used. We were talking about the relative price of a boat of that age and size. When I said "mediocre" sailing ability there is no pejorative sense intended. My point is that the Centaur had neither exceptionally good nor exceptionally poor sailing ability. I used the term "a boat like that " to mean a "31 year old 26 footer" had neither exceptionally good nor exceptionally poor sailing ability relative to a fair price for a boat with those characteristics. 

There was nothing in my comments suggested that Kelly should buy a ''sled''. There was in my comments that should be construed that I thought the either of the two boats, and especially the better-maintained boa, was ''junk''. I am not even sure you can even say I "jumped in and trashed someone''s pride and joy". Kelly''s original post asked about relative pricing and ended with, "any input would be great!" I tried to give meaningful input about relative pricing by first restating how this boat would be viewed in the marketplace and then talking about the kind of price you would expect to see on a boat of that age and description. It seems to me that the only "bias showing again" is yours. You are welcome to your opinion, but if you are not going to read posts in the context that they are given, then perhaps Dennis, "Sometimes you should just keep it to yourself." 

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks to everyone with your replies and your honesty. I like the Westerly because it is seemingly well built and yes more than likely slow. We have small kids and probably won''t want to be racing for awhile  We would prefer the larger room the Westerly has to offer, and forfeit some of the performance. One other boat we are interested in is the Bayfield 25. 
Since we are so new at this, are there other boats that fall into this catergory? ...roomy...ample headroom ( over 5''9" )...stable....27 feet and under.

Once again I appreciate everyone''s opinion and input! 
Thanks, 
Kelly


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Rick,
I hear ya''
Jeff,
I just re- read the post ...again, just to make sure. It was an attack. You wrote it that way and thats the way I perceived it. The way it was written.
Sometimes I do keep it to myself because I don''t want to offend other people needlessly. 
The only bias I might have is against smaller to medium size light displacement performance boats but you won''t see me doing what you do sometimes. Other than that, I have no idea what bias you are talking about.
And Jeff, if you didn''t want to get into another debate with me, why did you follow that sentance with eighteen lines of post?

Dennis L.


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## ndsailor (May 17, 2001)

Hi Kelly, Another boat that would meet your needs would be a Compac 27, quite a bit more expensive though. Bristol made a nice 27 and 30 footer too. Jeff H might be able to help with more recent designs. For your young family, you might want to consider something with a scoop stern for ease of boarding while swimming. I attached a small swim platform with a fold up 2 step ladder to the stern of my Centaur and it makes all the difference when swimming or boarding the dinghy......Rick


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

There are quite a few nice, traditional with good headroom 25 to 27 footers that should be available under $10K-12K and which should meet your goals. My favorite in this category would be the Tartan 27 which is a keel centerboarder. The short list might include: Longer keel boats with attached rudders like the Albin Vegas (27 feet), Bristol 27, Chris Craft Capri (26 feet), Pacific Dolphin (24), Pearson Ariel (26), Rhodes Ranger (26 feet, and not to be mistaken for a Ranger 26)

Or older fin keel boats like C&C 25, Cal 2-27, Chis Craft Pawnee (26 feet, I have never been below on the Pawnee so I am not sure about headroom), Contest 25 (which was the first boat that my family owned when I was 12 or so and my brother was 8 1/2), Ericson 27, 

And more modern designs like the: C&C 24 & 26, Pearson 26, Paceship 26 (this is a real nice boat that was also sold as an AMF PS26), Northstar 26 (also called a Northstar Islander), Ranger 26, Tartan 26 (if you can find one with the cruising interior meaning with a Vee berth forward)

All of these are well rounded boats for their era. They offer a wide range of accomodations and speed but all offer good sailing characteristics and should be suitable for a first boat for a family of 4. 

One minor point, I in no way meant to put down the Centaur. These are good boats for their era. My points were really directed at the issue of price relative to other boats from that era. There was a fin keel and bilge keel version of this boat. If you have a choice I would suggest that the fin keel version would have better performance and more stability. Back in the late 1960''s I taught sailing at a sailing school that used a 25 foot Westerly what I believe was probably the predecessor to the Centaur. We had both fin and bilge keel versions and the bilge keelers were inferior on all counts; motion comfort, leeway and pointing ability, and speed. 

Good hunting,
Jeff


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## ddebruin (Nov 13, 2001)

In response. I actually like the older slower boats with full keel. I grew up with them and like how they feel. I also appreciate Jeff''s comments. He does not need me to defend him, I like the process of the discussions.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

ndsailor, thanks I will check out those boats.
Jeff, thanks I will also look into the boats you mention. 

Since we are on the West Coast of Canada, some of those boats may be hard to find. You didn''t mention the Bayfield 25, they seem to be fairly common in our neck of the woods. Are you familiar with them at all?

p.s. I respect everyone''s opinions so please continue to give the great advice!

Akacake


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I know that these are a cult boat with a strong following but I am not a fan of the Bayfield 25. They have a reputation for being a bit under ballasted and certainly under canvassed. While I have next to no real first hand experience with these boats, I read a ''classic plastic'' review on these boat that was quite harsh of the boats sailing abilities. This is not about speed. When I talk about a boat that sails well, I mean that it handles a wide range of conditions well, that it points reasonably well, that it has good stability and can stand to its rig, that it is not plagued by gobs of weather helm, that it is good in stays and so on. From this article I concluded that the Bayfield is Okay in winds between 10-18 knots or so but does not do so well on either side of that narrow wind range. 

I normally do not touch on aesthetics because aesthetics are so subjective, but I personally do not like ''character boat'' style aesthetics and hull forms. To explain what I mean by this, although this forum has me pegged as only a go fast kind of guy, the reality is that I am also into genuine traditional working water craft. I am probably one of the few people on this BB who actually routinely sail gaff riggers and genuine historic boats. I really do enjoy the aesthetics of sailing traditional watercraft, which is a very different experience than sailing on modern boats. 

Traditional boats evolved from hard use and real life testing and resulted in hull forms and rigs that really are time tested for their purpose. It should be noted that often these designs reflect the severe limitations fo the materials available in a given area, large crew requirements, and the need to perform a very specific task in a very specific geography. 

In the 1970''s ''Character'' boats started becoming very popular. Character boats are intended to look like a traditional water craft by adding various trappings that somewhat reflect an earlier period without being true to the design principles of that earlier period. 

Maybe this is just me but I think if someone is going to build a traditional design, it should be true to the integrity and lessons learned by the real craft that they are replicating. To randomly insert traditional boat details into an otherwise fabricated from whole cloth hull design, really does nothing aesthetically (and perhaps sailing ability wise) for me. I emphasize that this is a subjective issue, but that is part of the reason that I am not a fan of the Bayfields 25''s.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi Jeff,
Refering to the Bayfield 25 or other boats with similar characteristics, you said it will be ok in winds 10 to18 Kts. Do you mean reefing won''t help much after 18 Kts? Could you mean that you have to reef so much that the speed of the boat will be effected dispraportionatly, or what?

Dennis L.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi Kelly,
One boat that comes to mind is a Pearson Renegade 27''
They have a fin keel and a balanced blade rudder underbody with a draft of about 4''6" a ballast of 6,750, beam of 8'' 6" and a capsize screen ratio of 1.82. The prices genaraly run from 7,000 to $15,000. Sloop rig. Production years ran from ''67 to ''69. She came with an inboard gas engine but alot have been converted to diesel.
They may be kind of hard to find around your neck of the sea but it would shurely be worth a look.

Dennis L.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I response to your question "Do you mean reefing won''t help much after 18 Kts?", reefing becomes a kind of deminishing return. Heavy, high volume hulls without careful modeling have a tremendous amount of drag that results from their sheer amount of wetter surface and underwater volume. They also tend to have inefficient foils that tend to create a disproportionate amount of turbulance in relation to the lift generated as well. In moderate conditions, that combination simply means slower speeds and poorer pointing ability but if you are not concerned with speed that isn''t really a problem. 

As the wind pipes up, it really takes a lot more stability to generate the needed drive. As the wind speed increases, a larger portion of the heeling is taking place because of the wind against the hull, rigging and tophamper. This is using up stability that could be used to stand up to the sail area that is needed to generate drive. At some point you end up needing to reef below the point that you are generating the necessary drive to make it to windward.

On an easily driven hull, this generally is not much of a problem. You reef a bit and you keep going. The force of a gust on a boat is absorbed in two ways; the boat heels a bit more and the boat accellerates using some of the energy being imparted. With an easily driven hull (whether light or heavy) a larger portion of the side load of the wind goes into forward motion and less into heeling. 

When you compare that to a not very easily driven hull, you really can''t reef down as far as a more easily driven hull and still maintain good steerage and control, as well as be reliable in stays. That means you need to have substantially greater stability to carry proportionately more sail area, and to overcome the fact that you can''t burn off some heeling forces through acceleration. That kind of stability generally is not present on these character boats which often had less than a third of their weight in low density ballast carried quite high compared to a deeper keeled or more modern design.

If you look at even burdensome traditional water craft they were carefully modeled to minimize drag and be comparatively easily driven hulls. They carried very large sail plans carried low to minimize heeling. 

When you look at some of the character boats, this fine art of hull modeling is ignored in an effort to stuff in more accomodations and in doing so the real virtues of a traditional vessel is lost and only the traditional look remains. 

Respectfully,
Jeff

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi Jeff,
Yes, thats what I meant. Now I''m going to print the post so I can have it. I haven''t quite found an answer to that question with that much intirety.Thanks... and... I DO very much enjoy your posts. Believe it or not!
With respect,

Dennis


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I own a ''67 Westerly 25 (outboard), and have sailed on a Centaur (inboard). Both are bilge keel boats. I like ''em. Yes, they are slow, but very strong, shoal draft, forgiving, and generally affordable. I have always felt safe on them. 

When on a boat I am not in a hurry; I just want to get there safely. If you want fast, get a power driven vessel.

I like a tiller, ''cuz it''s easy to rig the auto-pilot when going to windward in light air. I motor frequently to windward in light air---the tiller is great for that.

The small Westerly''s are heavy displacement boats, but that translates into a gentler ride when the wind blows. They may not be excellent to windward, but they aren''t that bad either if you''ve got more than light air.(My first boat, a 1973 Aquarius 23'',was abysmal to windward)

Hey, I don''t care what anyone says. The Centaur had a production run of 2500 or so (a hugely successful production run). Find It was a strong, expensive, well-made boat, but couldn''t compete in the long run with cheaper (and more cheaply made) production boats.

If you find a Centaur in satisfactory condition (hire a surveyor, it''ll be worth it for your peace-of-mind) at a satisfactory price to you, pick it up and enjoy it with your young kids. It''ll take care of you.

I suspect like me, you''ll discover over time there is no ideal boat. Like the comment about cars. What''s the best car? Whatever car you''ve got that''s paid for.

I owned an 1973 Aquarius 23'' as my first boat, then the 1967 Westerly 25''. Loved them both for what they were.

Now I''ve teamed up with two others on a 1988 cutter-rigged Pacific Seacraft Dana 24 (another small heavy displacement boat with a tiller. 

However, I''ll always look back on the tremendous times my family (wife and two sons)had on the Westerly. It''s been a great boat.

As a last comment, for my money, I would gladly pay a premium for a newer or rebuilt engine, especially on an older boat. Knowing I will be motoring more frequently in a heavy displacement boat, I want a good, reliable engine.


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## colehankins (Feb 1, 2002)

If you havnt allready bought the 26 I know of a couple of wetsnails for sale in the philadelphia area I am friends with the owners. I could hook ya''ll up
cole


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

Hi, If you are looking for good solid boats in that price range ($8-$14k) then you might want to take a look at a Watkins 27.. They are solid little boats that have an amazing amount of room for a 27 footer. The usually come with wheel steering and diesel engines (I would look for one with the venerable Yanmar 2QM15). They are sometimes referred to as a "poor mans " Island Packet as they are similar looking in a lot of ways. They are a sort of "modified" shoal keel and only draw 3''8". I''m not sure how many there are up in Canada as they were produced in Florida and are ideal for the thin waters on the East Coast where you find most of them. Since they are a shoal keel they don''t point as high as some other boats, but just fall off the wind just a bit and she can make a good turn of speed.

So, no, I wouldn''t be racing her too much, but if I had my family on board when the winds and the seas were picking up, I would still feel very comfortable and she "keeps on her feet" pretty well. Another thing about this boat is that quite a few things like spars and rigging are "oversized" relative to other boats her size, which adds a margin of safety.

I have a few pictures that I had posted when I was selling her (its already been sold) one also shows me on my way through the "Gut" on the way to "Block Island"

http://home.att.net/~tom.senator/Sailing.jpg

http://home.att.net/~tom.senator/index.html

And here is a Site dedicated to Watkins that has lots of links and pictures

http://watkins.realshell.com/

Just another boat to look into


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks to all!

This has been a very informative thread for me! I have learned lots and have now looked into many boats I had never heard of!

I will be in touch I am sure with more questions on the boats I am also looking at now 

Kelly


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## DilliGaf (Aug 13, 2010)

I currently have a westerly centaur which some of you think is worthless. However yes it is Not the most speedy sailboat in this size it is one of the safest and easiest for a newbie to handle and learn the ropes on. It is a very forgiving boat for the novice in my mind. I when first getting had never previously owned a sailboat. We have had it now for some 5 years and the biggest knock I have with it is that I have to trailer it which entails an hour to rig every time plus another to take down for transport.































































































































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## DilliGaf (Aug 13, 2010)

I currently have a westerly centaur which some of you think is worthless. However yes it is Not the most speedy sailboat in this size it is one of the safest and easiest for a newbie to handle and learn the ropes on. It is a very forgiving boat for the novice in my mind. I when first getting had never previously owned a sailboat. We have had it now for some 5 years and the biggest knock I have with it is that I have to trailer it which entails an hour to rig every time plus another to take down for transport.



































































































































































































































































































































































































































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## DilliGaf (Aug 13, 2010)

I currently have a westerly centaur which some of you think is worthless. However yes it is Not the most speedy sailboat in this size it is one of the safest and easiest for a newbie to handle and learn the ropes on. It is a very forgiving boat for the novice in my mind. I when first getting had never previously owned a sailboat. We have had it now for some 5 years and the biggest knock I have with it is that I have to trailer it which entails an hour to rig every time plus another to take down for transport.



































































































































































































































































































































































































































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## DilliGaf (Aug 13, 2010)

I currently have a westerly centaur which some of you think is worthless. However yes it is Not the most speedy sailboat in this size it is one of the safest and easiest for a newbie to handle and learn the ropes on. It is a very forgiving boat for the novice in my mind. I when first getting had never previously owned a sailboat. We have had it now for some 5 years and the biggest knock I have with it is that I have to trailer it which entails an hour to rig every time plus another to take down for transport. If I were to start again in the same field of experience the only thing I might do different is to check it out more thoroughly so as I know more of what needs major attentions as far as repairs. I got stung with having to redo the complete stern tube/prop shaft assy. My advise is know what the needs are and go for it as anything any where comparable to this will cost you 60,000 plus canadian. You can do a lot of refurbishing for that difference and get it like you stated your way. Happy sailing. And oh yeah that is the name on my boat Dilli-Gaf


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Any reason you had to post that THREE TIMES??


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

And how the hell did you create all that white space?uke


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

lots of spaces or line breaks.


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## DilliGaf (Aug 13, 2010)

Have no idea what happened unless a button on keyboard stuck!


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## seagamin (Jul 15, 2007)

Values are what they are.
I bought a traller and in Ontario Canada, hauled it to Baltimore MD. where a 1971 Centaur was loaded and hauled back to British Columbia Canada.
Every thing was stipped to bare fiber glass inside and out. Engine (26 HP Volvo MD 3002) was removed and rebuilt by Volvo. All new interior, windows, portlights, rigging, Etc. the list is so extensice that only your emagination can think of it. Total rebuild of components was $45,000 Cdn. after the hull was in my yard. The Sea Gamin is NOT for sale.

She is now as new (2009)

It was cheaper than anything I found, When you are looking for a vessel, someones emotional value is worthless, buy the hull you want and invest in the rebuild.

Just make sure the hull you buy is the one you want.

Tom Cook

SV Sea Gamin


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