# Wood vs. Fiberglass



## AndrewMac (Sep 11, 2009)

My question is: assuming two boats with identical designs, what are the different performance characteristics of wood versus fiberglass?

By way of background, I am looking to upgrade from an ensign to a 28ft-30ft daysailer/weekender. I had only been considering fiberglass, but have come across a wooden boat that I am very interested in. The boat would be sailed primarily along the Maine Coast, from Penobscot Bay to Frenchman's Bay where the sea conditions rarely exceed 2'-4' and the winds are generally light to moderate southwesterlies in the summer. I am painfully aware of the maintenance issues presented by wood, so I'm really asking here about the performance issues as I have primarily sailed/owned fiberglass.

Appreciate any input..

Thanks,
Andrew


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

wood will flex and groan, essentually "talking" to the helmsperson and instilling feelings of terror or charm depending on their disposition. Before there was glass.. there was only wood. Being in Maine you would belong to long standing maritime tradition. I'd say that wooden boats have sharper lines then fiberglass, since FG gets its strenth in it's curves. It would be interesting to see the performance results of 2 boats with the same design in wood and glass.


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## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

Wooden boats are many things nowadays.. Are you talking of a traditional wooden constructions or cold-molded?
Cold molded constructions may be lighter and faster than a comparable GRP boat (and relatively easy to maintain).


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Locally there is a fleet of 25' T-Birds, then again, the fleet and design started south of me in the Tacoma area. Original design was plywood over frame, later some to many, I do not know the quantity, were made from glass. This class, along with lightning and el toro have done a pretty good job of making sure the glass versions wiegh etc the same as wood. Generally speaking, a glass could weigh a bit less of the same design, potentially being faster with the same sail area.

With this in mind, reality is, if the class is done correct, there should not be any different tween the boats when racing one design. That is the goal of a boat that meets one design. 

If the 1d rules are thrown out, then it is possible for glass to be faster, on the other hand, some wood boats built of the West or gougen brothers epoxy impregnated cedar, or a stich and glue plywood, are all pretty light boats, and may of the same design, be lighter than a glass boat! How the boats are built will really be the ultimate deciding factor.

Marty


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

I do some sailing in a Norwegian one design class where wood and fibreglass boats compete on the same terms. The results indicates that material used have little impact on the results. 
The majority of the boats is fibreglass but still some wooden boats get first now and then.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Assuming identical hull shapes, the fiberglass boat will be lighter, and therefore probably faster. Fiberglass designs do not require the extensive internal framing of traditional plank on frame wood boats, and even a newer cold-molded wood boat will not be as light as the identically shaped fiberglass hull. This is not to say that fiberglass is "superior", just that it is lighter. 

The scenario you posit (identical boats made of different materials) is probably not very helpful in helping you make a decision as to whether this is the boat for you. If its a one-design, then the class rules will ensure that the boats are as identical as possible. If its not a one-design, then the material used to construct the hull will have no more or different bearing on "sailing ability" than any other factor. 

If you are really considering buying a wood boat, then I salute you; you are keeping alive a grand tradition of beautiful boats and traditional craftsmanship. Whenever I see one, I am thankful there are those out there with more time, money and/or ability than I to maintain these beauties.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

As size increases structure increases. I respectively disagree that wood will always be heavier. The bracing and engineered curves needed to keep a glass boat of size within it's design specs requires stringers, keel supports, floors, etc. all need nearly the same types of structure. Ever notice what is in those fiberglass stringers that make that glass boat so strong? wood! what's in the decks? wood! (or foam) Some are tubes of paper to give the glass form while curing. 
Glass without something to make it a composite is weak and flexible. 
Exceptions are coldmolded, strip built, wood boats that most often are smaller designs, of which are designed like glass boats and use the curves to give it it's strength, I think I read somewhere that over about 50ft glass is not the best choice of materials. Didn't a ocean racing yacht break in half recently? I think it was carbon fiber. 

On the small side of things. my 15ft one design wooden canoe (traditional wood ribs and planking with canvas skin) is lighter or close to equal in weight then a glass canoe of the same size. unless that canoe is "high tech" and designed to be ultra light. 

All of the arguements aside, Those that love wooden boats are not easily swayed.


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## AndrewMac (Sep 11, 2009)

This is a 1929 Alden designed 28' knockabout sloop. The current owner replaced the original plank 15 years ago with a coldmolded hull. SA/D of about 25, with almost all the sail in the main. Fractional rig with self tending jib. It doesn't really fulfill the weekender part of the criterea so well, but I have an interest in a 40' cruiser, so i'm comfortable with the trade off. Being in Maine, I have spent a lot of time admiring the old wooden boats and am having a tough time resisting this one...appreciate all of the input.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Now you need to look at it from a maintenance standpoint. From having built two plywood boats etc, wood is harder.....altho I am not sure I want to say harder, other than maybe more time consuming to a point. There a places a wood is easier glass, and the other way around. 

Bright work is way more time. but when done right, you're happy, and the comments pour in...........

marty


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

When the Tbird fleet went to FG, they took great pains to ensure that there were no weight differences between the wood and glass boats. Old boats continued to do well in competition for a long time. They also went through a few different deck designs, with no noticeable advantage to either.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Well andrew the cold molded hull is a composite just like FG boats. the veneers are cross grain to each other as they are laid up to build the required thickness. do you have pictures or a web link to the boat? I'd love to see it.


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## AndrewMac (Sep 11, 2009)

Marty - would love to hear the ways in which you feel the wood is easier than the fiberglass from a maintenance perspective. The maintenance is the thing that is really holding me back. I assume (but could easily be wrong) that the coldmolded hull means you are not dealing with recaulking between the planks every year, which I recall used to be done on an old lobster boat my family had when I was a kid.


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## AndrewMac (Sep 11, 2009)

Here's a link that gives a picture and the specs of the design.

TRIANGLE (ALDEN) Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com (units English)


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## xsboats (Oct 2, 2007)

I used to own and cruise on an Alden Malabar Sr., which was designed by Carl Alberg while he worked for J.G.Alden and Assoc. At 33 ft and roughly10,500 lbs., she gave similar sized and designed vessels [including Alberg 30 & 35's] a run for their money when raced . I also owned and restored an Alden Triangle but sold her without ever having a chance to sail her. You've plenty of qualified people up there to help you assess her condition prior to buying her.Good luck , I hope you get her ;they're nice boats. As for the weight question,the Triangle is roughly 2/3 that of the Pearson Triton. Though not identical, they are close in design and both are 28 footers.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I spent a lot of time researching this topic some years ago. I think that there are some big misunderstandings expressed in the discussion. My research looked at boats that were originally constructed in plank on frame wooden construction and which were converted to glass. I looked at a number of early boats like the Lightning class, Folkboat, H-28, and Rhodes Bounty.

In a general sense, the hulls on the wooden plank on frame boats were lighter and stiffer than the glass boats. In other words, the wooden boats flexed a lot less than the glass boats. In the case of the keel boats, this lighter weight meant that the wooden boats generally had more ballast and so had greater stability and in some cases carried more sail area than the glass boats (H-28 being a good example of that).

The reason that early fiberglass boat hulls were so heavy was that it was very hard to replicate the stiffness of wood without going to very thick fiberglass and since Fiberglass was so dense it quickly outweighed its wooden sisters.

This situation changed when designers began adding internal framing and then coring to fiberglass boats (late 1970's and early 1980's) . A properly framed glass boat can have a lighter, stronger hull than a plank on frame wooden boat.

Cold molding is another animal all together from plank on frame. Its weight is very dependent on the species of wood used, and the care in lay-up but in a general sense a cold-molded hull is lighter than a plank-on-frame wood hull but a bit heavier than a framed glass boat of similar strength and stiffness.

Generally speaking a carefully constructed cold molded wood boat will be *less* maintanence than a fiberglass hull and will be a lot more durable. I base this on an industry study comparing the life cost of various boat building materials that was done some years back.

Jeff


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## AndrewMac (Sep 11, 2009)

Jeff - thanks for you comments. As I understand it, the hull is "western red cedar laminars with GRP epoxy sheathing" and the work was done by Gordon Swift of Swift Custom Boats (means nothing to me). 

If anyone here knows a good surveyor in or near Annapolis, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks again for everyone's input and feedback.
Andrew


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

AndrewMac said:


> Here's a link that gives a picture and the specs of the design.
> 
> TRIANGLE (ALDEN) Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com (units English)


{Sigh}. Wow.

I have read how many of the old plank-on-frame boats have been given new life and added marketability by sheathing the outside of the hull with either fiberglass or a cold-molded veneer. My understanding is that this will eliminate the need to recaulk the seams; however, the original internal framing system still remains in the boat, and is still integral to its structure. I'm no engineer, but it would seem to me that while you "gain" by elminating one of the biggest wooden boat maintenance issues, you "lose" because now you have the additional weight of the external shell too. But with a boat that beautiful, I'd be willing to "lose" quite a bit. Anyway, you don't buy a boat like that to win races, you buy a boat like that because she makes your heart race.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

mstern, actually the old planking can/could/should be removed and the cold molding becomes the new hull. glass sheathing is good but many boats still rot because the timbers will get water logged by trapped moisture and bilge waters.


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## xsboats (Oct 2, 2007)

That's a new one to me. I've never removed the old planking prior to cold-molding nor have I ever heard of anyone else doing so. Standard practice is to take a saw or router to open the seams to a uniform width and the glue wooden splines into the seams. These are then faired to the hull .To address the added weight issue, many plank on frame boats that have been cold molded do not gain weight because they lose the weight of the water that is no longer saturating their planking. The hull is thoroughly dried out prior to sheathing and the inside of the hull is sealed in a proper job. Progress on one such job can be followed at Welcome to the Colonial Seaport Foundation, Hampton, Virginia as they convert an old 47' Rosborough Privateer gaff topsail ketch into an 1800's style Colonial Sloop. The work is being led by John Collamore III , who has performed this process on many old classics which would have been dead otherwise.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

XS, of course everything I say is gospel! I wonder why I used the words "can, could, should" ? Because it would be up to the restorer to make that determination.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

mstern said:


> Assuming identical hull shapes, the fiberglass boat will be lighter, and therefore probably faster. Fiberglass designs do not require the extensive internal framing of traditional plank on frame wood boats, and even a newer cold-molded wood boat will not be as light as the identically shaped fiberglass hull. This is not to say that fiberglass is "superior", just that it is lighter.


This is a bad generalization to make. A cold-molded wood boat would probably be lighter than a fiberglass boat of the same design. Cold-molded wood boats, depending on the construction, may in fact, be lighter and stiffer than a fiberglass boat. To see this, just look at some of the cold-molded dinghies and kayaks out there...



> The scenario you posit (identical boats made of different materials) is probably not very helpful in helping you make a decision as to whether this is the boat for you. If its a one-design, then the class rules will ensure that the boats are as identical as possible. If its not a one-design, then the material used to construct the hull will have no more or different bearing on "sailing ability" than any other factor.
> 
> If you are really considering buying a wood boat, then I salute you; you are keeping alive a grand tradition of beautiful boats and traditional craftsmanship. Whenever I see one, I am thankful there are those out there with more time, money and/or ability than I to maintain these beauties.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

AndrewMac, 

The above posts have somewhat contradictory information. It may be that the seller is giving you mixed messages but the answer on whether this is the right boat for you greatly depends on finding out exactly what the situation is with this particular boat. 

The advertisment on Yachtworld seems to suggest that this boat had a completely new hull cold molded roughly 10 years ago. That would produce a very durable low maintenance boat. The use of western red cedar was the preferred species for cold molding since it is strong, light and rot-resistant for its weight. It takes glue well and its cell structure was easily sealed by epoxy. 

The discussions above seem to suggest that the boat simply had a cold-molded veneer put over the original hull. That is a very bad idea on a lightly planked and framed boat like this one, which rarely lasts over time and which would likely screw up the sailing ability of a light small boat like this one. 

There was a Triangle for sale on the Chesapeake roughly 15 years ago that needed reframing, refastening and replanking. I assume that this is that boat. Lightly built boats that needed that kind of attention were very hard to save. The reality is that the only good way to save them would be to essentially replace the hull, which from the ad it sounds like someone did in this case with a cold molded hull. But there were folks out there adding cold molded laminate over the planking and then glassing which is at best a half-hearted solution which is likely to produce mediocre results over time. 

The seller should be able to tell you exactly how the boat was rebuilt, in terms of whether the hull planking and framing were replaced, or simply laminated over and with how many veneers. Without that information I would not consider this boat even at its very inexpensive pricing. 

Jeff


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## AndrewMac (Sep 11, 2009)

Jeff:

Thank you again for your well considered input. I have received similar feedback from a good friend who comes out of the Brooklin Boat Yard and clearly need to make sure that I have the appropriate homework done on the boat. As i am sure you can guess, much of my interest is driven by the aesthetics of the boat which are appealing to me, but I also don't want to be seduced by that alone - the idea is to have more fun sailing! With that said, do you or anyone else have a sense of how a boat of this design will perform? I am usually in 5-15 knots of wind during the summer months in Maine with seas rarely beyond 2/3 ft (frequently smaller). The main is proportionately much larger than what I am used to and I wonder whether that and the narrow beam will result in a large amount of weather helm (this question may reveal some holes in my knowledge, but that is afterall why I'm on sailnet - to learn from those who know more...)

Thanks to anyone who can give some feedback!

Regards,
Andrew


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

deniseO30 said:


> As size increases structure increases. I respectively disagree that wood will always be heavier. The bracing and engineered curves needed to keep a glass boat of size within it's design specs requires stringers, keel supports, floors, etc. all need nearly the same types of structure. Ever notice what is in those fiberglass stringers that make that glass boat so strong? wood! what's in the decks? wood! (or foam) Some are tubes of paper to give the glass form while curing.
> Glass without something to make it a composite is weak and flexible.
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

TQA, 

I think we are looking at a number of different questions. Will a modern composite, Carbon Fiber boat be lighter than a wooden one? Yeah, by quite a bit. Will a 60's or 70's era fiber glass boat be lighter? Quite often, no. 

This debate on weight though of course belays the real question of which this is just one small component... How will she sail, and will Andrew be able to maintain her without bankrupting himself? I'll leave these questions to those more experienced than I to answer. 

-- James


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## AndrewMac (Sep 11, 2009)

Well - the survey will be done on Tuesday, so hopefully I'll know a good deal more at that point regarding the bankruptcy question . Conversation with the owner and surveyor was pretty positive. Surveyor is also going to talk to the guys in New Hampshire who did the coldmolding work and apparently there is an extensive photo log documenting methods and materials used during the restoration. That leaves the sailing question - owner, of course, says she sails like a dream. One point that was interesting is that they shortened the boom in order to accomodate a permanent backstay, which i assume reduces the sail area and the SA/D which was a touch under 25 on the original. Also, there's no clubfoot on the jib which was part of the original design...


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

lol tqa I don't disagree! We where however, (at least I was) referencing to traditional building methods. I guess we could build a carbon fiber replica of of Andrew's boat! 

I think beneteau is using a honeycomb for the bottom stucture of its boats. Light and super strong! "

Oh, in older boats I guess the balsa in the decks (yeah, that's a composite too) was a feeble attempt to save weight. (never minding that poly resin doesn't bond with wood very well) And paper tube to give a hollow stringer it's shape would save lots of weight too... as the paper mildews away... and hollow alum spars instead of spruce,, oh don't forget in between were hollow spruce spars! Then along came carbon fiber..... 

tries to picture herself at the local sailnet gathering surrounded by experts, pointing, yelling, screaming? "YOUR WRONG"!! when did I say I was right?    :hammer  

But then, who wants 1/4 inch of vac. formed fiberglass between you and cold deep water? Or does your "older boat" with an inch or more of hand laid up fg, huge stringers, carlins, etc. impart a more secure feeling?


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## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

I've only bought 2 boats in my life, and both were purchased for less than an hour of a surveyors time, so I'm not really familiar with the real boat buying process. Am I to understand that all of this, surveys and the like, is being done before the owner has taken you out for a test sail? Is this normal in the big boat buying world? 

Thanks. 

-- James


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## AndrewMac (Sep 11, 2009)

The boat is on the hard, so no test sail available. The previous boats we've bought have all been through our local yard in maine where we have a 35 year relationship and lots of trust. This is all new to me as well. But with something like this, seems like the only way to go is with a thorough survey - would rather spend a couple hundred $$ now than find out there is a $10,000 repair in my immediate future...


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## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

ah, thanks for the clarification. I was certainly not advocating going without a survey, I just didn't realize the boat wasn't available for in water testing at the time. The performance questions make a lot more sense to me now.  

Thanks. 

-- James


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Andrew got a pic of the actual boat?


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## AndrewMac (Sep 11, 2009)

Here's the link with the best pics.

Boater's Resources: Boating, marinas, accessories, equipment, and supplies at discounts you'll love!

This link is to a different boat of the same design - shows it under sail.

View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com


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## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

my god, she's beautiful.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

James hit the nail on the head when he questioned the idea of doing a survey before a sail trial. Sail trials serve two purposes. First of all they provide information for your subjective review of the boat by which I mean, it helps you decide whether you personally like the way this boat sails. It also provides objective information on whether the gear and hardware works properly, the sails set properly, and the deck layout works efficiently. 

It is only when you a sure that you want to buy the boat that you do the survey.

With regards to how boats like these sail. I have not sailed a Triangle but have sailed other designs this era. Typically they are a real mixed bag. They tend to be tender, wet and not all that had to sink. Most boats of this era lacked sef-bailing cockpits and were tender enough that they required vigilence, skill and care to sail safely.

Boats like these were notorious for developing wicked weather helm in a breeze. it is not so much a matter of the large mainsail as it is a function of the large keel angles these boats were sailed at and the moment between center of drag and the center of effort.

If truly ortiginal the rigs on boats like these were fagile, thier hardware high friction, low mechanical advantage and a bit fragile as well.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I agree with Jeff that if the hull is a completely new (when redone 15 yrs ago) cold molded structure it can be an awesome boat. If on the other hand it was cold molded over the original run. Comparing conventional fibreglass to a modern cold molded/epoxy boat the wood boat should be lighter and stiffer than the glass boat. If you use exotics like carbon fibre extensively at great cost and core the glass boat with foam or honeycomb it can be lighter again, but not for anywhere near the cost of the cold molded boat. Maintenance to a properly built cold molded boat should be similar to a glass boat but problems like blistering and osmosis won't exist. As far as brightwork, just because the boat is wood doesn't mean you need varnished wood everywhere outside in the elements. One of the best examples of modern wood boats is Vortex, built in the 1990 by Brooklin Boat Yard. She is a Knud Reimers design known in fibreglass as the Swede 52. When building her Steve at Brooklin Boat Yard discussed weight with Knud Reimers who was disappointed that the originals in glass were heavier than the designed weight. The hull of Vortex weighed less and she had more ballast I believe. Sailed very well and raced very credibly.
Were I in a position to build a custom boat I would choose cold molded construction first, aluminun second and fibreglass a distant third. Fibreglass is an awesome material for series production but that involves compromises. In the class racing scenario as Faster said the glass boats are built to the same weight as their wood sisters so the racing is fair so this really doesn't count when comparing materials.
Brian


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## AndrewMac (Sep 11, 2009)

Jeff - I was afraid you'd say something like that...but I suppose it's why I asked the question, so thank you. 

Looking on the bright side, I suppose there's nothing like the threat of sinking to help you focus on improving your skills. The owner did say that he rebuilt the cockpit 3 years ago and made it self bailing...


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

I grew up on wood boats large and small. When fiberglass came along it was a gift from heaven. I recall a several day race in a 44 ft. wood yawl where the pounding opened up some seams and we bailed our way accross the finish line up to our ankles in water. It also seemed that there was always a deck leak right above your bunk.
I think you'll not see any difference in speed and performance that isn't driven by the design not the material. In class boat racing e.g. Lightnigs, Folkboats etc. the class takes measures to keep performance even. High tech racing machines using wood saturated epoxy construction were turnining our some very light wood hulls. More recently kevlar and other composite construction have super ceede this technology.
Maintenance is the issue. For a planked wood boat the saying was If you have to ask how much you can't afford it. Cold molded and some plywood have knocked that work down a lot. A planked or clinker boat however has to be a labor of love if the boat's other than a dinghy. 
If you go wood get a surveyor who specialied in wood and has solid credentials.... ask around at the boat yards and insurers.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

sailingdog said:


> This is a bad generalization to make. A cold-molded wood boat would probably be lighter than a fiberglass boat of the same design. Cold-molded wood boats, depending on the construction, may in fact, be lighter and stiffer than a fiberglass boat. To see this, just look at some of the cold-molded dinghies and kayaks out there...


We may have moved passed this issue in this thread already (I've been away for a couple of days), but I wanted to respond. Enough posters here disagreed with my statement that all other things being equal, a fiberglass boat would be lighter than a wood boat. I still stand by that if we are talking about a plank on frame design. However, I think I was wrong about the cold molded versions.

My original basis for making the statement was my recollection of some material in Dave Garr's book "The Nature of Boats". I recalled a discussion of various building materials where Dave opined that pound for pound, wood was the best building material (assuming a cold molded construction). However, I thought I remembered that he described that on a strict weight unit measurement, fiberglass was lighter (although less stiff) than wood. Hence, my conclusion that a fiberglass hull would be lighter than a cold molded wood hull. This of conclusion ignores the weight of other necessary structures in the hull (stringers in fiberglass, bulkheads in the cold-molded boat), but I thought still a valid, broad generalization.

In reading some of the comments, I decided to go back and check the book to see if I remembered it correctly. I did, but only sort of. The table I remembered seeing that showed douglas fir as heavier than e-glass on a lg/cu.ft. basis didn't say that; it actually showed douglas fir as having greater tensile strength on a lb/cu.ft basis. Another table shows clearly a simple weight comparison: fir is 32 lbs/cu.ft, and e-glass is 95 lbs./cu.ft. So if we are going to accept a simplistic generalization about the relative weights of fiberglass vs. coldmolded boats, it is clear that those who said cold molded is lighter, the facts seem to bear that out.


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## marujosortudo (Oct 21, 2009)

AndrewMac said:


> Jeff - thanks for you comments. As I understand it, the hull is "western red cedar laminars with GRP epoxy sheathing" and the work was done by Gordon Swift of Swift Custom Boats (means nothing to me).
> 
> If anyone here knows a good surveyor in or near Annapolis, it would be much appreciated.
> 
> ...


Work done by Gordon Swift is quite highly regarded in the wooden boat world, so I'm guessing the survey will reveal the work was done sensibly and to a high standard. If you haven't already been through the survey, I might recommend looking for a surveyor who specializes in wooden boats. Alas, many surveyor's lack experience in this area.

-Colin


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## AndrewMac (Sep 11, 2009)

I found a great surveyor who was very knowledgable about wood. While he was not familiar with Grodon Swift, he came back and said that the boat was very sound and the work done to a high standard. The guy who runs our boatyard in maine was familiar with Swift and said he would expect nothing but exceptional work from him. Think we made a deal on the boat last night - I can't believe it's only October and I have to wait this long to get her in the water!


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## marujosortudo (Oct 21, 2009)

Congratulations! Summer sailing in Maine is a dream. It is funny buying a boat without a sea trial, but these are the chances you take sometimes. I hope everything works out wonderfully.


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## AndrewMac (Sep 11, 2009)

I know - it's a little odd. One thing that helped is that the Bob Vaughn, who owns the boatyard we've been with for 30 years, has considerable experience sailing an Alden Triangle and speaking with him left me feeling that it would work well for me. I won't know for sure until I'm actually on her, which leaves the next 5-6 months to imagine what it will be like. 

Going to be a long winter...!


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

Well I figure i'd weigh in. Ours is semi-composite (one of Bob Derecktor's innovations) typical framing and longitudinal planking but with *interior* cold molding between the frames. She's very stiff (no groaning creaking etc, and we've had her out in F9 and pretty big seas) not particularly light nor particularly heavy but a lot of SA and she really goes. She's held up well with typical maintenance. Since she's tight seamed and glued, she doesn't leak.

I think you'll really like your Alden- it's a very different ride from a "modern' boat.


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## AndrewMac (Sep 11, 2009)

Hi all - thought I would write a quick note to update my story a little. I went far down the road on the coldmolded Triangle, but kept having problems with the seller. First of all, when the surveyor went out, he said the boat was in good condition but there was some rot in the bridge deck and also around the mast step. The seller's response was - "that's very impressive, I knew where the problems were but I didn't think he would catch it", which struck me as a bit of an odd to thing to say. I then told him I was prepared to proceed, but asked that he not do the repairs as I wanted to have them done myself (not particularly trusting him at this point). He agreed and then called me five days later to say he had gone ahead with the repairs and was raising the price. He didn't raise it by much, but I have to say, I was definitely getting irritated and not trusting him at this point. Final straw came when he said reneged on the delivery arrangements that he initially agreed to undertake. Ugh! Anyway, as luck would have it, there was another Triangle for sale much closer to home and I was totally hooked - had spent too much time imagining myself on it over the summer. The boat was totally rebuilt by IYRS in 2001 and in great shape, so I simply walked away from the first boat and had a deal done on the second boat in five days. Anyway, attached below is the picture of my new boat - closing next week! Thanks to all who helped answer my questions here. Can't wait till spring....


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

VERY pretty boat! Congratulations.. obviously the roadblocks put up by the first seller were, in the end, fortuitous!!


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

I hope everything works out for you. I would've walked too. Her pic on the mooring was pretty, but undersail.......*OMG*!........*i2f*


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## marujosortudo (Oct 21, 2009)

She's gorgeous! Now, you have the whole winter to get her 100% ship-shape for the spring....just like me . Actually, I think it's the perfect time to buy a boat if you can deal with delayed gratification. You can address all the surveyor's recommendations and do any upgrades or cosmetic work you want, so she'll be totally ready when spring rolls around.


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

Faster said:


> VERY pretty boat! Congratulations.. obviously the roadblocks put up by the first seller were, in the end, fortuitous!!


Couldn't agree more. Is this one cold molded or plank-on-frame?


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Holy smokes, that's a gorgeous boat.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Sweet!


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Nice boats, folks!


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## AndrewMac (Sep 11, 2009)

She's plank on frame. The coldmolded boat was a sheath over the old plank on frame construction. A number of people on the thread warned against this method (with good reason as I understand there are a lot of poorly conceived/executed examples of this). Partly as a result of the warnings I got here, I spent a LOT of time researching the means and methods used on the "coldmolded" version and got very comfortable with the quality and durability of the workmanship on the hull. Unfortunately, the owner had used inferior plywood for the decks and cockpit when he did the rebuild in 1991 and that is where the rot was setting in. 

The one other boat that I ended up considering very seriously was the Burgess designed Atlantic. Basically, I couldn't escape my love of the classic old lines/overhangs and was prepared to sacrifice some performance and comfort as a result. What I found interesting was that, of that generation of designers, it seemed that Burgess, more than most, managed to combine the aesthetic of the day with more modern performance characteristics. I ultimately concluded though, that the Atlantic made sense if I was going to race her a lot, but that the Triangle was going to be a more comfortable daysailer that I could also enter into some of the classic boats races around me in Maine....


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## SecondWindNC (Dec 29, 2008)

Wow, gorgeous! Congrats.


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## Rogertheengineer (Mar 22, 2004)

*Wood v GRP*

In England one of the great dinghy designers was Ian Proctor. One of his enduring designs is a 16'boat - The Wayfarer- designed some 50yrs ago. It is mainly sailed in Canada, UK, Denmark and Holland plus a few other countries. It is a One Class Design.

Originally it was designed to be built in Wood with plywood on a frame resulting in a shape with chines. With difficulties of renewable wood and costs it was soon produced in GRP but had to be the same weight to comply with the one design class.

The wood ones always out performed the GRP ones. To improve the performance of the GRP boats they made them a sandwich GRP construction. All the boats had similar hull shapes.

In the end the best helms soon learnt to search for the best condition/latest wooden boat they could find. As they stopped building the wooden boats in 1988 this was considered bad for the class. In 2007 it was decided to make a new GRP boat to be as fast (or faster) than the best wooden boat. To achieve this they had to alter the hull shape slightly.

We did the 2009 Nationals and other competitions and generally found a number of helms in the latest GRP boat were getting results that were better than we expected.

Conclusion - in one design with shape and weight limits a wooden boat performs better than a GRP one. I believe this is because wood is inherently stiffer and faster for any given weight than GRP. Obviously Kevlar or Carbon Fibre would influence this (not allowed in a Wayfarer).

For the 2010 season we have now sold our beloved wooden Wayfarer and ordered one of the newer shaped GRP sandwich construction Wayfarer.

One disadvantage of GRP is that with age they do get heavier as they absorb an amount of moisture while a wooden boat with regular investment (painting/varnish) and drying out during the winter can be keep as new.


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## Matti Miettunen (Jul 13, 2011)

*Alden Triangle*









[IMG][/QUOTE]

Hi!

Do you still have this boat?

We bought one from Marblehead around 1999 and brought her to Finland.

She is one of the series built by Graves 1927.

We had her totally restaured by S & S Yachts, Kotka, Finland. We named her "Electra", we are not 100 % sure if this was the original name in 1927.

We made small modifications inside to put in a Yanmar diesel (9.9 hp) but otherwise kept all the original riggings etc. The deck is now made of Oregon Pine.

A beautifull boat and a pleasure to sail her here in the Finnish Archipelago.

This link is to a picture when we tested her in Kotka (without sails) in freezing temperature.

[URL=http://www.redskycraft.com/projektit2.html]Red Sky Craft[/URL]

Best regards

Matti Miettunen


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