# Sorry, you are about to get slammed. First question: bowsprit



## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

So....I'm not going to say I bought a boat, since I believe I will have the transaction completed tomorrow, and be unloading my gear tomorrow evening. But I am going to have so many questions in the coming weeks, you are going to get sick of me, if you already aren't, and I'm sorry.

I actually like asking people online better than in person. Pros can be stingy with handing out info, and owners can be all over the place on what they say.

After looking at this boat, the main problem I saw was the bowsprit has rot at the end. I tapped all over the boat, and this wooden sprit, see photos attached, at the end had some rot. 

I'm no rot expert, so I can't tell how far into it it goes, but it's a critical piece because it supports the forestay, with a small dolphin kicker below.

By tapping and feeling, it is only the end. If you look at the picture, at the chainplate, from the last screw forward is soft.

Never having had a bowsprit, but also wanting to add an anchor roller. How soon should these be replaced? Can I sail with it like this in the meantime? Is it a costly thing? I wouldn't think it would be too expensive, mostly I just have a piece of wood cut, loosen and remove the forestay and put the new wood on. Yes? I could glass over the wood maybe.

Thoughts?


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## CharlzO (Nov 12, 2013)

It looks like to me, from that picture, that it's basically a 2x12 or so, just painted and stuck on there. I would look into replacing the entire piece, and make sure to seal it properly before mounting the rest. To be honest, if it's showing ANY softness, I would replace it before sailing it, since that stay is relying on it. There's no telling how weak the rest of it is, even if it doesn't show any outwards signs just yet.


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## Gladrags1 (Apr 9, 2003)

Since it appears that the rot is outward from the forestay it is not a dire circumstance. The pressures in a sprit are inward, compression. You need to be certain that the rot does NOT continue under the forestay plate or aft of it. That would require immediate remediation. I must say that it is extremely likely that the rot started in the bolt holes for that forestay fitting. 

The bowsprit looks homemade and an add on. To me it would seem to be an easy fix to support the mast with the jib halyard attached to a bow cleat, remove the forestay and replace the sprit with teak which is resistant to rot. Design it better to be more uniform and hold an anchor roller. Then reattach everything, caulking it properly as you go. I would do it now for piece of mind. 

Tod
Bayfield 36


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Westsailforever (Jul 9, 2014)

That sprit has to go . Here is what it should look like. .CAPE DORY 28 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
Should be a easy fix.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Thanks. I think it is the original sprit. And when it rotted the cut off those two sections so it has a ladder look. My guess. 

How much do you think a new sprit costs?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I agree. That abomination has got to go. No matter the cost, do it right, in teak and make it utilitarian, but tasteful. Add the anchor roller and think forward to possibly one day having an asymmetrical or drifter.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Definitely. Has to go. There is a place called Spaulding boat works in San Francisco which is a school and working wooden boat repair center. I'll give them a call tomorrow. I know it's seems like a DIY project and maybe it can be I don't have a saw. 

I might be able to measure and get the plank and rebed it myself. I'm furiously trying to research this. It looks like there are a lot of people that have redone the CD sprit. It was originally white oak. 

I don't know how the chainplates are attached. I'll post pictures tomorrow of top and bottom. I'm missing something. 

The forestay is on the top of the plank and has six screws through a metal piece. . The bobstay had another metal piece with no screws. I don't know what's holding it on. Hope?

I would think it would be through bolted. The top plate with six bolts through the word and out through the bottom plate. But it doesn't look like that. I must be missing something. 

Are the screws screwed in to the bottom plate but don't go all the way through perhaps for aesthetics? I know CD knows how to build boats. I'm just not seeing what is holding it together. 

Like I said. I'll post more tomorrow. From what you see it doesn't look safe to sail now? I really want to sail right away. Of course after my last forestay/mast incident I will not sail if it isn't safe. Once I have the boat and am moved on I will poke at it more. 

Can I take a needle or awl and poke at it to see where the rot is? The tap test tells it's only at the front. But that's not exactly scientific. 

I am excited and nervous all together. I don't know how I will sleep!


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## southbound (Jun 9, 2013)

I was looking at a Downeaster 38 once with bowsprit issues and was told then that they are very expensive to replace. Yours looks quite a bit simpler. As was said earlier, looks like a 2X12 in some good quality hardwood should do the job. I wouldn't even even think about sailing it like that though. It's very likely that incipient rot extends further than you can see.


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

Use a drilling tool or a knife to clean inside the rotten area. If it is not too deep you can clean most of it. Brush some epoxy inside and fill with wood saw dust mixed epoxy. The rot size will not increase any more. This repair will stop the rot but if the rot is deep enough, epoxy will not add extra strength.


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## harmonic (Sep 10, 2013)

You could get a spike of some kind and start digging out the rot at least then you will know how far it goes.I would do this before sailing it looks like a very easy fix so dont stress over it.Just dont drop anything in the water and support your mast before you start.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Ok. That's a good idea. I can start
Picking at it and see how deep it goes. I might get lucky and it's mostly been cut away and I car seal it with epoxy for now. Spend the money on an autopilot. But we'll see. 

I'm no rot expert. So I really can't say if this is bad or minor. I'm definitely thinking low that's why they cut it away in the stair step shape. And it's probably seeps in further since they did that. Why else make a bow sprit this shape?

So yeah. Not having encountered rot before I just did what everyone tells you to do. Tap tap everything. It was pretty obvious when I encountered it. You could totally tell. Tap tap, thud thud.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Just stick a figurehead over it and the naked nymph will attract your attention, not the rot.


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## Gladrags1 (Apr 9, 2003)

> The forestay is on the top of the plank and has six screws through a metal piece. . The bobstay had another metal piece with no screws. I don't know what's holding it on. Hope?
> 
> I would think it would be through bolted. The top plate with six bolts through the word and out through the bottom plate. But it doesn't look like that. I must be missing something.
> 
> Are the screws screwed in to the bottom plate but don't go all the way through perhaps for aesthetics? I know CD knows how to build boats. I'm just not seeing what is holding it together!


I'm thinking the fitting might be 1 piece that goes through a slot in the wood and the bob stay connects to that. The screws don't need to be bolts in that case as the bob stay exerts equal downward pressure. The wood screws simply keep it in place.

I think I would bite the bullet and replace the board, not do a temporary fix that you will always worry about. It seems like a very easy fix. The onboard end is bolted on, isn't it? Can you get to the nuts? Since you don't have wood working equipment, maybe a friend does? Draw something up full size and have someone cut it for you? Maybe a high school shop class? Make it out of either teak or white oak, either is good.

Tod

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Every job I ever did half assed, bit me in the other half. This owner had a good plan, pass it off to the next guy. 

That sprit is a do over, you have no way to know what structural integrity remains. He cut it away once before. Plus it looks butt ugly.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

NOB is thing made from construction lumber? (hemlock,fir,spruce) To make it out of teak would be VERY expensive! White oak is a good choice (never red oak) I
Fiberglass and resin on it would not last because of expansion/contraction of the wood.


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

Ask on the Cape Dory board, someone there may have drawings or recommendations. I know this one isn't the first to need a new bowsprit.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

A couple quick thoughts here; You have gotten some good advice and some pretty poor advice. The good advice included attaching and tensioning your Jib halyard to a strongly attached cleat before poking into the wood and replace the bowsprit before you go sailing. 

It is very difficult to properly access a situation like this from photos and without being there to see and touch the sprit. And even if we were trying to sort this out, none of us can begin to tell how good or bad the bowsprit is from your photos since the photos don't show the areas that would be of greatest concern such as the area aft of the forestay above and below the sprit, or the area where the sprit is bolted to the deck. What the photos of the existing repair does tell us is that it is unlikely that the prior owner has been doing careful maintenance.

I would say that it makes no sense to mess with a patch job on that bowsprit. It is throwing good epoxy after bad wood. 

Assuming that there aren't more serious problems, replacing a bowsprit like that is comparatively easy. If you don't have the skills to perform that level of work by yourself, and are concerned about even trying to do it yourself, you may not be ready to own a older cruising boat.

You should be able buy a slab of white oak pretty cheaply. You should have a tool kit on board with most of the tools that it would take to build a bowsprit and install a bowsprit. (wrench set, screwdrivers, caulking gun, file, paint brushes, a hacksaw with wood and metal blades, and a hand drill and bits) You can by an inexpensive cross cut handsaw for something in the range of $15.00. I would not bother with teak as a piece this large it is very expensive. I would cut and shape the new sprit using the old sprit as a pattern for locating the bolt holes and getting the butt shape. 

I would shape it and cut all slots and bolt holes. I would then prime it with two coats of un-thickened epoxy paying close attention to the end grain, especially in the holes and give it a minimum of 3 coats of varnish or paint. (I prefer varnish so you can monitor the condition of the wood, but varnish requires more frequent recoating.) 

While you have the sprit off you should check the deck for delamination in the area where the spit is bolted to the deck as there is likely to be core rot in this area. If so, the core rot should be repaired before the sprit is installer, and at the very least the bolt holes should be 'potted', the fittings rebed. 

Doing a repair like this will help to develop or practice a broad range of skills, skills which you should have to own a boat. 

Jeff


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> ......What the photos of the existing repair does tell us is that it is unlikely that the prior owner has been doing careful maintenance......


+1

Proof that a prior owner is willing to cobble up a obvious repair is not a very good sign. There is a very good chance of others, less obvious.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Good advice Jeff except white oak and epoxy do not marry well  It's ok to great on joints, but to coat WO.. it will peal at some point.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

deniseO30 said:


> Good advice Jeff except white oak and epoxy do not marry well  It's ok to great on joints, but to coat WO.. it will peal at some point.


Denise,

I had good results using 2 thin coats epoxy as a primer/sealer on white oak when I built a replacement tiller for my Laser 28. I used the tiller on that boat for 10 years afterward and the finish held up well. I did re-varnish the tiller every couple years.

I would not expect epoxy to adhere to red oak, and prefer prenolic-resorcinol glue as an adhesive with either oak. I would never use red oak on a boat due to its greater tendency to check and rot.

Jeff


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

As Jeff says " FIX IT NOW "

The down side of the risk is too high, another mast going down possibly injuring someone.

Support the mast and get it off. Use it as a pattern and make a new one. If you are not handy any woodshop should be able to cut a piece of lumber to shape in an hour.

This sort of mod [ adding a bowsprit ] is often done to reduce weather helm.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> Doing a repair like this will help to develop or practice a broad range of skills, skills which you should have to own a boat.
> 
> Jeff


Amen to this. You should take this as your mantra. You have already experienced results from professional repairs shoddily done. Working with the school could be a source of good mentoring, but do the work yourself. And have fun doing it.
John


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

deniseO30 said:


> .....white oak and epoxy do not marry well......


Not even CPE?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Not even CPE?


Doesn't need it. WO has been used for centuries in boats even for wooden dams on rivers.

Left to weather it turns silver grey too.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

to seal the grain yes, but to coat white oak would be unnecessary imho. smaller parts like a tiller would be less likely to expand/contract under the coating.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

But the OEM sprit was reportedly WO and it rotted out. Most likely through the end grain and/or the holes, I'm sure.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

It's a chunk of wood, eh? rip it off and cut another. Douglas fir woukd last 20 years if treated with zinc or copper napthalate before installation (to soak the bolt holes) Oil base paint.Plan the bow roller now, BTW ,nice looking turnbuckle.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

There was a boat in our marina that had a bowsprit like the one you show, a Pearson of the Alberg vintage I believe. Anyway, he had fittings on the sprit to hold two anchors, a spade that hung under the sprit in the aft position and a danforth that was above the sprit in the forward position. Maybe the one you show was similar.
John


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

North,
Been out the last week or so, so apologies for coming in so late into the conversation. You bought a Cape Dory 28? Are you in the San Francisco area and do you have a car? I don’t recognize the palm trees in the background – are you at Lock Lomond? For alternative boatyards, you can also call KKMI in Richmond or Svendsen’s in Alameda. Both have excellent woodworking shops and do a lot of work for the Master Mariner Boats. Because all of the different vector forces on a sprit, I’d be inclined to have the pros do it (at least have them make the new sprit and you do the deinstall/install). If you are going to do all the work yourself, then McBeath’s in Berkeley is a good place to go for quality hardwoods.


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

It has been a while since I have posted here but I noticed the subject and I have done this exact repair (Cape Dory 30) so thought that I would throw my thoughts into the mix. The Cape Dory owners site is worth a look too as it has some excellent information and I am pretty sure that I have seen more than 1 how to that included pictures on this very subject.

Most of these boats had a white oak bowsprit originally although some had teak. The dimensions were the same for both despite teak being the weaker material (at least when new). I decided to use white oak for the replacement as I could get a good piece locally. Like you, the problem was that there was rot at the end of the bowsprit. I decided to replace the entire bowsprit before really digging as I also didn't like the stock anchor roller setup either. When I finally did start digging, I found that the rot did not go far and I could have easily cut to 2" beyond the end of the rot and just had a shorter bowsprit.

To start with, I ran one halyard forward to a foredeck cleat and another around the bow under the bobstay fitting under the hull which were then both tensioned. Then I disconnected the forestay and bobstay. I would strongly recommend spraying the nuts on the underside of the foredeck with pb blaster or equivalent once a day for a week before trying to remove them. Once the bolts are removed, the bowsprit is only held on by bedding compound. This proved to be pretty strong stuff so you need to use some patience and make sure not to tear up any gelcoat. In the very bow, there is a kind of mash of resin which can get damaged during the bowsprit removal (mine was fine) so make sure to check it. Once off, the hard part was removing the forstay fitting from the old bowprit. The fitting is made by spartan so you could just buy a new one but with some work, you should be able to reuse the old. The fitting is in 2 pieces, a bottom plate which is tapped for the 6 bolts and has a slot for the bobstay tang and the rest of the fitting which consists of a top plate drilled for 6 bolts with integral tangs on either side for the forstay and bobstay attachments. Getting these bolts out was a real bear. I started with my bit brace and got one or so out. Then my impact driver got another one or two but the others were really stuck. I ended up cutting apart the old bowsprit and then chiseling the wood out from between the two plates. At that point, I used vice grips and heat and then came out although I was expecting to break them and have to drill and tap again.

The bowsprit is really quite simple and you should be able to get the local lumber yard to plane and cut it to size for you. Make sure to round out all of the sharp corners so that your paint/varnish sticks well. You should fit it to the deck as there is some crown which can be done with a plane or a sander and 36 grit paper. Make sure to install the forstay fitting in the same place or your mast rake will be off. To do the mounting holes, I clamped the bowsprit to the foredeck and marked the holes from inside the anchor locker then drilled them from the bottom up. I would strongly suggest that you install a new anchor roller. You can buy a stainless one and bolt it to the top of your new bowsprit or if you want a really nice looking one, buy the spartan bronze one which does take some more work to install. Of course, you should always use good practices like proper bedding, etc. 

This really isn't that hard provided that you take your time. I started on a saturday and reinstalled the varnished bowsprit the next saturday with probably 20 hours invested including varnishing. The only tools you will need are a bit brace with a flat bit, the correct size wrench/socket, a sander, a drill, bits, plug cutter, countersink and a jigsaw (to cut the hole for the bobstay tang). It would be a lot easier to make the plugs and drill the bowsprit if you have a drill press but a steady hand could do without.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> North,
> Been out the last week or so, so apologies for coming in so late into the conversation. You bought a Cape Dory 28? Are you in the San Francisco area and do you have a car? I don't recognize the palm trees in the background - are you at Lock Lomond? For alternative boatyards, you can also call KKMI in Richmond or Svendsen's in Alameda. Both have excellent woodworking shops and do a lot of work for the Master Mariner Boats. Because all of the different vector forces on a sprit, I'd be inclined to have the pros do it (at least have them make the new sprit and you do the deinstall/install). If you are going to do all the work yourself, then McBeath's in Berkeley is a good place to go for quality hardwoods.


Thanks for the other two options. Spaulding said they have a nice selection of wood, if I bring my piece in, they will find an appropriate piece, where the grain is right and it is structurally sound. He doesn't know whether he has the right piece in teak, the wood guy is out.

He said prices are $25+per some kind of foot. How does that translate to reality? I'm guessing this plank is less than 3 feet by less than one foot.

The boat is in Redwood City/Palo Alto


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Awesome, thanks!

Explain this

_The fitting is in 2 pieces, a bottom plate which is tapped for the 6 bolts and has a slot for the bobstay tang and the rest of the fitting which consists of a top plate drilled for 6 bolts with integral tangs on either side for the forstay and bobstay attachments._

What is holding it in? Integral tangs? I don't understand how a piece of wood, even a new, unwritten one, could support a chainplate, without them being through bolted together.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

North,
Redwood City? Are you in the City Marina (where Sequoia YC is located) or over at the new Westport marina? I understand that there is a McBeath’s in San Jose now. You can also go to Southern Lumber (also in San Jose). I’m not a wood working kind of guy so I can’t help you much. One thing that you will want to do is put some sort of anchor roller out on the bowsprit. If you plan on doing a lot of anchoring, you will want the rode to be out on the end as to not wrap/get caught on the bob stay or hull proper as the boat shifts during tidal/current changes. If you are going to make the sprit yourself (using the old one as a pattern) then there is a DIY woodworking shop in Sunnyvale called the Sawdust Factory. They have every power tool imaginable there.


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

northoceanbeach said:


> Awesome, thanks!
> 
> Explain this
> 
> ...


You can think of it as 2 flat plates, one on either side of the bowsprit, that are bolted together with 6 bolts. The plate on the top has screw clearance holes that have been countersunk so that the screw heads sit flush and the plate on the bottom is tapped so that you don't need nuts. The top plate is also what the forestay and bobstay attach to. To do this, the casting actually includes pieces on the top and bottom of this top plate that are perpendicular to the pate so that if you looked at it end on, it would look like a T. You can easily see this perpendicular piece on top as it is out in the air with your forestay attached to it. The one on the bottom sticks all of the way through the bowsprit (there is a cutout that you will see once you get things removed) and through the bottom plate (this also has a cutout that you can see if you look real close, the plate and the tang are actually not the same piece). The bottom plate is only there as something to provide a reaction force to keep the top plate tight to the bowsprit.

The part can be found here Stemhead Fittings | Robinhood Marine Center . It is called a "stemhead for bowsprit" by spartan.

I hope that this helps.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Where in Redwood City (which marina)? Many folks at SYC (including me) have small woodshops and could cut out the 'sprit. The current Port Captain owns some kind of machining business; he is a busy guy though. Many SYC folks with lots of practical experience.

Southern Lumber is a good option, but can be kinda expensive; but they do have the quality lumber.

You got some great advice from experienced folk here - Jeff and klem nailed it. The only thing I'd add is a +1 for varnish. it is a pain to maintain (you could use cetol), but you can see problems; paint just covers them up. With wood I want to see an issue before it bites me. Incidentally, yhis is why folks with wooden spreaders generally put paint on the top but varnish underneath - so they can see what is going on.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

northoceanbeach said:


> He said prices are $25+per some kind of foot. How does that translate to reality? I'm guessing this plank is less than 3 feet by less than one foot.


Almost certainly a board foot. See Board foot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Awesome. THanks. I understand it better now. 

I'm at the municipal marina. Anyone that wants to help is more than welcome anytime!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I would think that S/V Auspicious is exactly right, and from your description you are probably buying somewhere around 4 1/4 to 6 board feet depending on whether its 5/4 stock (actually 1 inch thick) or 6/4 stock (1 1/4" thick) or "2 by_" (which is 1 1/2" thick).


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Another, perhaps more expensive, alternative is have a stainless steel one made. You can have your anchor rollers and other details done to your own needs and not have to worry about rot in the future.


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

GeorgeB said:


> ... Because all of the different vector forces on a sprit, I'd be inclined ...


Out of curiosity, are there any other forces than "vector forces"? 
Would that be scalar forces?

There is nothing particularly complex with that sprit. Easy to fix. Might be a problem in the deck - good possibility to check now.

Jeff is of course spot on, if one cannot change the sprit, then one should not own an old boat having one. This will not be the only case where key part needs to be changed / repaired.

/J


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

TQA said:


> As Jeff says " FIX IT NOW "
> 
> The down side of the risk is too high, *another* mast going down possibly injuring someone.


TQA brings up a good point. Perhaps as an offering to the gods on mount Olympus you should fix this puppy asap. Since you've already had bad mast luck you don't need to tempt fate again eh?

Consider it good karma, or your first big installment into the black box.

MedSailor


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I will. It's unanimous. I won't sail until it's fixed. 

I just did my dive. The bottom looks new. I felt along the bottom of the keel. I looked at the thru hull. I shook the rudder. No damage. Great paint. 

The prop is like he said. It's a weird four bladed prop with feathering blades. All that looks great. The water wasn't too cold. 3/2 wetsuit.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Think it's a Gori? $$$ wood in board ft is hard to figure. If it is 11" wide.. I'say 1.5 thick it's close a $200 piece of teak. (or more!) 








Teakflex makes this.. woo.. I love it!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Jaramaz said:


> Out of curiosity, are there any other forces than "vector forces"?
> Would that be scalar forces?
> 
> /J


A bowsprit experiences forces in almost every direction except a force pulling it forward:
The forestay pulls the forward end of the bowsprit upward and to either side with a large amount of force that tries tear it off the deck and to rotate the sprit to leeward.

The bobstay and anchor rode pulls the forward end of the bowsprit downward, using the leverage of the sprit and the fulcrum of the stem to pry the bolts out of the deck.

The vectorial forces of the forestay and bobstay try to thrust the bowsprit aft with a lot of force trying to sheer the bolts or tear slots in the deck.

The side force of the forestay tries to rotate the sprit to leeward trying to split the bowsprit at each bolt passing through it.

The actual magnitudes of the forces felt by the hardware and fastenings are increased by the catenary of the forestay, leverage on the sprit end and so on, relative to the forces that would be measured on the sail itself.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Wood measured by board foot thats a piece 12 inches by 12 inches and an inch thick.Or some combination for same volume .Quality fir is about 1.25 a bf here and stronger (shock test) than oak. Probably more there, and cutting tropical rain forest not cool anyway. Gluing 2x3 finished fir to size (3" thick),drilling,treating with napthalate and varnish or paint is a 70 dollar project including the glue .most time waiting for glue to harden. This is but one part of a boat. If I were making an end fitting. I'd run thru bolts with nuts under and heavy bottom plate extends to welded ears to hold bow roller each side Two ears up/one down to take bobstay .Sprit extends beyond enough to take a pulpit one day. Too strong never broke, your move.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Are these joke prices? Perhaps in Lira?

http://www.getaprop.com/content-tags/tag_id-54/variprop.html


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

northoceanbeach said:


> Are these joke prices? Perhaps in Lira?
> 
> Getaprop Variprop


Dude! Sell the prop, buy a maxprop or whatever flavor you like and pocket the extra couple thousand!

Wow.... 

MedSailor


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

More than you ever wanted to know about folding props, including yours.

http://www.flexofold.com/upload_dir/docs/Test_YachtingMonthly_low.pdf

MedSailor


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

4 blade feathering props are quite expensive from anyone. I think the 4-blade MaxProp actually costs more. I don't know how large the market is for 4 blade 1" shaft props, used value might be quite a bit lower.

Welcome to the land of inboard engines!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Capt Len said:


> Quality fir is ......... stronger (shock test) than oak.


As much as I am a big fan of Douglas Fir, fir not stronger than the white oak being recommended. (and yes there is not a typo on the Fb or compression)
Fb Oak 15200 psi Fir heartwood 1550 psi
E Oak 1,780,000 Fir heartwood 1,400,000
Compression Perp to grain
Oak 1070 psi Fir 385.

So while a decent piece of fir would make a reasonable bowsprit, it would need to be considerably larger in section than the oak (roughly 3.25 times thicker).

Respectfully
Jeff


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## Westsailforever (Jul 9, 2014)

Scott, you could use Douglas Fir,a nice clean piece (no sap pockets or knots) and seal it up with what ever and maintain it, it would be inexpensive . Because you have no whisker stays, keep it stock length like the pic I sent you, and loose those weird steps . Before we touch off a big debate here about Doug Fir vrs. what ever, lets remember two things, first Scott is on a budget 2nd. my sprit (Doug Fir) is over 30yrs. old and is in fine shape, thank you.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> I just did my dive. The bottom looks new. I felt along the bottom of the keel. I looked at the thru hull. I shook the rudder. No damage. Great paint.


I'm amazed you can see anything with the red tide we have had the last week....


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I know! I've seen these at boat shows and those expensive yacht outfitters but I never saw the price. I have a lot to learn. I thought a prop would cost $150-200. Maybe $400 for a specialty. 

I did the paperwork and asked the seller about the bowsprit. He said he meant to tell me but he thinks the previous owner hit something and cracked the front of the sprit and it's teak and that allowed water to get in. He said he had someone come look at it and they cut those sections away and the soft spot I noticed is putty they put over the part they cut away. 

After I unload and get settled I will take a really good look. It will probably have to be replaced.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

The 2-3 blade feathering prop that would typically be used on a boat of this size is around $1500-$2500. Two bladed folding props are quite a bit less. I'm not sure why the PO of this boat put on a 4-blade prop on a 28' boat, perhaps he got it for a very good deal. Regardless you'll be happy to have the feathering prop, the reduced drag is very noticeable compared to a fixed prop.

A good 3-blade fixed prop (Campbell Sailor) is about $500. Cheap used 2-blade props might be $50-$150.

I would think twice about downgrading the bowsprit heavily in strength. If you change materials you'll want to adapt the new materials to match the intended loads.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

He put the prop on at the recommendation of the Engine place in Sausalito. I talked to them about this boat as well. They said he was very flexible with what they advised would be best for this boat.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Good advice above. By all means give Spalding a call, or ask around the marina where the boat is for the name of a boatwright who works in wood. Even if you end up paying for the advice, you might do well to have someone with experience give you some help. You do want to sort this out. 

The forestay and the bob-stay will be held together by more than screws. Congratulatins and good luck with the new boat. Fair winds and following seas.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Thanks. Of all the threads I have posted since 2008, this has probably been the most helpful. 

The marina I'm at so far is a ghost town. Maybe I'm just used to up north where everyone is cruising, like anacortes and friday harbor. They are full of people day and night. I'm the only person here right now as far as I can tell. It's weird. Even when I got here earlier today there were only a couple people. 

What I need to do is start tomorrow and assess the condition. I read a blog of a CD owner who replaced his and he said if you can avoid it don't do it. 

I need to see where it is and how bad it is. First step. I won't be lazy and sail with something that needs to be replaced though.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Congrats on find a boat, NOB - looks like you found a beauty!!

When you say you won't sail with it in that condition, I assume you did take her for a trial sail though, yes?

As others have pointed out, it is difficult to see the extent of the damage from photos, but the important part of the 'sprit aft of the forestay appears ok to me and although, yes it certainly needs replacing, I wouldn't be too concerned about going out for an hour or so on a nice day in light winds and seas with it in that condition. ie. it doesn't look, to me, as if it's going to fail tomorrow - and it's also important you enjoy the boat.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Classic30 said:


> Congrats on find a boat, NOB - looks like you found a beauty!!
> 
> When you say you won't sail with it in that condition, I assume you did take her for a trial sail though, yes?
> 
> As others have pointed out, it is difficult to see the extent of the damage from photos, but the important part of the 'sprit aft of the forestay appears ok to me and although, yes it certainly needs replacing, *I wouldn't be too concerned about going out for an hour or so on a nice day in light winds *and seas with it in that condition. ie. it doesn't look, to me, as if it's going to fail tomorrow - and it's also important you enjoy the boat.


Except he is in San Francisco Bay right now. They reliably get a small craft advisory 20-30knots every afternoon. An early morning sail may be placid, but you can count on wind in the afternoon, lots of it!

MedSailor


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Classic30 said:


> Congrats on find a boat, NOB - looks like you found a beauty!!
> 
> When you say you won't sail with it in that condition, I assume you did take her for a trial sail though, yes?
> 
> As others have pointed out, it is difficult to see the extent of the damage from photos, but the important part of the 'sprit aft of the forestay appears ok to me and although, yes it certainly needs replacing, *I wouldn't be too concerned about going out for an hour or so on a nice day in light winds and seas with it in that condition*. ie. it doesn't look, to me, as if it's going to fail tomorrow - and it's also important you enjoy the boat.


So you are recommending a sail with known weakness where the result of a failure is likely to be the mast coming down.

Never mind the light airs all you need is a big powerboat waking you to seriously stress that bowsprit. Plenty big powerboats in SF bay.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

TQA said:


> So you are recommending a sail with known weakness where the result of a failure is likely to be the mast coming down.
> 
> Never mind the light airs all you need is a big powerboat waking you to seriously stress that bowsprit. Plenty big powerboats in SF bay.


Classic30 is a wooden boat owner. I am a recovering wooden boat owner myself, so I know the type. Symptoms of the disorder include:

1: Unusually high confidence in wood as a structural material on boats.
2: Willingness to assume that "she'll be right" when said wood is dodgy. 
3: Ringing in the ears caused by listening to termites munching on your hull all night.



MedSailor


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> Except he is in San Francisco Bay right now. They reliably get a small craft advisory 20-30knots every afternoon. An early morning sail may be placid, but you can count on wind in the afternoon, lots of it!
> 
> MedSailor


Beginning to calm down now; last week we were only in the high teens. Bound to be a few windy days, but it looks like we're settling in for the calmer ~10knots over winter. ZZzzzz....

'Course, it'll be abit higher in the slot.

Nice time of year for boat projects - I have a ton (what a surprise)


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

That munching sound is actually 'polyester lemnoria' dining on all the fiberglass hulls in your marina. Having a warrented confidence in wood comes from having some experience with the product. Mother nature has made good stuff.If your bias comes only from a grade 12 Materials Technology text book you might overlook things like yield before break characteristics .If compression was the be all, masts and fishing rods would be made of oak. Personally and for many reasons not including cost, if I needed a slab bow sprit I'd take my power saw and go cut one out of a butt of a fir log .Around here that's easy and a butt because thats where Ma Nature grows it tough as helll. Oak trees fail in a wind and cause all kinds of internal commpression fractures , fir=unstayed mast. Engineering design will require larger bearing surfaces and bigger washers and a bit more bulk but so? Hiring some one to design and build something may be the safest approach if (this situation) warranted. Then you can blame the moron you hired and start another thread.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Not to slam wood, but I'm a fiberglass man. If wood is so good, why are we talking about a rotten(potentially) wood bowsprit? Why isn't this thread about fiberglass rot? And wait a minute....why do oak trees fall in a wind?


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

northoceanbeach said:


> Not to slam wood, but I'm a fiberglass man. If wood is so good, why are we talking about a rotten(potentially) wood bowsprit? Why isn't this thread about fiberglass rot? And wait a minute....why do oak trees fall in a wind?


Wood/fiberglass meh. We all know from a recently locked thread that steel is the best material for boats right. 

It wouldn't hurt to ask a marine fabrication shop what it would cost to knock up a stainless steel bowsprit with an anchor roller. I suspect you'd be looking at $1,000 +/- several hundred dollars. It'll be more than wood, but if you total up the costs of buying a roller, buying the oak and paying the wooden boat place to fabricate the wooden one it might not be that much more to get a SS one made.

Doing a google image search of "stainless steel bowsprit" reveals many simple designs and even some CAD type drawings that save a lot of time for the SS shop.


























MedSailor


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Ok, so how do I go about seeing if this is rot of if I just identified it as the marine epoxy "putty" repair. It could be nothing, or it could be something. Without damaging something that might be good, how can I check? I was thinking some kind of poking device.

Those are cool, I will consider it, but I will probably try to keep this as original to the Alberg design as possible. Probably just replicate what the boat came with from the factory.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

north put me in the custom stainless sprit crowd...it will actually be easier to maintain and install as you wont be working with wood and epoxies and varnish and all that jazz...just some bolds and bedding compound or butyl tape.

those pics med posted are dime a dozen(plentiful) and you can find ideas for them on many boats old and new

if you want to go real spiffy sketch one out with rollers on each side for 2 different(like the diagram shows) anchors, for use depending on where you anchor, as well as redundancy.

Go to a stainless machine shop, prefferably one that does custom work for the auto industry as it will save you some much needed cruising kitty money.

also you can have one made with an inner forestay mount so you can run with 2 headsails in the trades. like the link I sent you shows.

peace


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Capt Len said:


> If your bias comes only from a grade 12 Materials Technology text book you might overlook things like yield before break characteristics .If compression was the be all, masts and fishing rods would be made of oak.


Based on my bias from my masters degree in architectural structures, the Fb of wood that I quoted is the allowable bending stress of these materials (fir and oak) and with a few safety factors thrown in, and Fb is an accurate predictor of failure in bending. The Fb of the oak being 10 times higher than the fir, oak with an equal shaped section will be 10 times stronger than the fir in bending. The compression number that I quoted is relevant because of bowsprits have very large compressive forces as well as bending, and the compression perpendicular to grain is important since this bowsprit is simply bolted to the deck rather than having a thrust fitting, or king post.

Fir and spruce are used for spars because they are high strength relative to their weight, creating comparatively light and stiff spars. For what its worth, I do agree that fir makes a good material for some bowsprits. Below is a picture of Indian, the 1939 Stadel Cutter that I used to own. Her bowsprit was fir, but it was 8" wide and 6" thick (at the base) and was supported by an Oak king post that took the thrust from the butt of the sprit. She also had spring stays (shrouds) on either side so the sprit was less prone to splitting.



Jeff


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> ..... Below is a picture of Indian, the 1939 Stadel Cutter that I used to own. Her bowsprit was fir, but it was 8" wide and 6" thick (at the base) and was supported by an Oak king post that took the thrust from the butt of the sprit. She also had spring stays (shrouds) on either side so the sprit was less prone to splitting.
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff


Love that photo.. That is one gorgeous boat. You were very, very fortunate to have had a boat like that in your life, Jeff.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

MedSailor said:


> Classic30 is a wooden boat owner. I am a recovering wooden boat owner myself, so I know the type. Symptoms of the disorder include:
> 
> 1: Unusually high confidence in wood as a structural material on boats.
> 2: Willingness to assume that "she'll be right" when said wood is dodgy.
> ...


Righto..righto.. settle down there. That's waaay too close to the truth.  

Ok, so I've never sailed on SF bay but from what I've seen there is sure to be sheltered parts inside around Sausalito and further north and I guess it's a matter of being sensible about it. If you were genuinely concerned, you could always rig a spare halyard around the base of the bowsprit to support the mast in case anything did happen - but you missed the main point of my post:



Classic30 said:


> ie. it doesn't look, to me, as if it's going to fail tomorrow - and it's also important you enjoy the boat.


Speaking from personal experience, it's far too easy for a new-boat-owner to get so petrified by the seemingly endless list of 'urgent things to fix' that they never leave the dock.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

northoceanbeach said:


> I know it's seems like a DIY project and maybe it can be I don't have a saw.


Well that's that then.

Seriously though, making the judgement between the time, expense and danger to fingers of DIY work on a boat and cost and risk of having a "professional" mess it up is one of the great mysterious of boat ownership.

Good luck!!


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## thereefgeek (Aug 18, 2006)

Ouch!!
And I thought my sprit was in bad shape...


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

That's one beautiful sprit, Med. I assume that the rows of small holes are to hold the stainless steel deck planks?


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Capt Len said:


> That's one beautiful sprit, Med. I assume that the rows of small holes are to hold the stainless steel deck planks?


They are perforations. Anyone who has ever used toilet paper knows that a perforated line is the strongest part of any structure.

Medsailor


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Classic30 said:


> Speaking from personal experience, it's far too easy for a new-boat-owner to get so petrified by the seemingly endless list of 'urgent things to fix' that they never leave the dock.


Ain't that the truth! And Sailnet has the monopoly on telling you "yur gunna' die!" if everything isn't fixed. It's up to the owner to decide what their level of risk tolerance is and assess the opinions VS their own level of knowledge on the subject and act accordingly.

If it was a wooden boat that was only sinking a little, I'd say get a bigger bilge pump and sail on. I still vote for being superstitious on this one lest the gods smite him and make another mast come down. 

MedSailor


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Classic30 said:


> Love that photo.. That is one gorgeous boat. You were very, very fortunate to have had a boat like that in your life, Jeff.


Thank you for the kind words. I have been very fortunate to have owned several really beautiful boats, Indian being the prettiest, with my old lapstrake Folkboat a close second. I have also owned a couple pretty boats from a more modern sensibilty, but they were not in that league. As much as I truly enjoy my present boat, but she certainly lacks the grace of those old girls.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

An A-frame bowsprit makes a lot of sense. A good place to put a platform on, and no whisker stays. A single almost 180 degree bend in a piece of sch 40 stainles pipe, a couple of plates at the hull angle , a tang for the bobstay , and the roller frame welded on. They dont get much simpler.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

davidpm said:


> Well that's that then.
> 
> Seriously though, making the judgement between the time, expense and danger to fingers of DIY work on a boat and cost and risk of having a "professional" mess it up is one of the great mysterious of boat ownership.
> 
> Good luck!!


I ponder that with every project. My girlfriend snaps me back into reality.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Well, I had a rigger come about and spend about three hours going over the boat with me. I feel a lot better now. I was pretty tense and overwhelmed. It was a lot of new things at once, but now I have confirmation on the good and direction on what needs to be done. 

He has also singlehanded to New Zealand and from New York to the Mediterranean. So he had some good insight into what I need to make this boat offshore and singlehanded capable.

He said I need a new bowsprit. I knew I did. I was just hoping. But he showed me how to do it and it really doesn't seem that hard or expensive. It is in fact white oak and I'm probably going to get white oak. I guess it depends on what wood the lumber yard has that's a good fit. I want teak, but he recommended staying with oak if they had a good piece. 

I will add a bow roller and I think I will feel better knowing it has been replaced. I will paint it Bristol Beige to match the non skid and toe rails. Depending on what type of wood I get for sure I may use a penetrating epoxy pre paint. 

Sound like a good plan?


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

northoceanbeach said:


> Well, I had a rigger come about and spend about three hours going over the boat with me. I feel a lot better now. I was pretty tense and overwhelmed. It was a lot of new things at once, but now I have confirmation on the good and direction on what needs to be done.
> 
> He has also singlehanded to New Zealand and from New York to the Mediterranean. So he had some good insight into what I need to make this boat offshore and singlehanded capable.
> 
> ...


Good plan.

If I were you I would take the existing bowsprit off and take it with you to the woodyard, once you have a suitable piece of timber ask them to direct you to a jobbing wood shop. Get them to do it. It won't take long with a bandsaw planer pillar drill etc.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Good plan. Also, ask for a good place to buy hardwood. A regular lumber yard probably doesn't carry this. The price of the piece might shock you, but get the correct lumber. Sometimes if you are friendly, the lumber yard can steer you to a piece at a bargain price.

If I remember correctly, you are now in the SF Bay Area? If so, talk to the folks at Blue Pelican in Alameda, Grand Marine Basin. In addition to being a source of used gear at great prices, the owner is a nice guy and may be able to steer you towards a cheaper supply of white oak.


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