# Hold your course?



## GreatWhite

I was racing this weekend and having a great time at our father's day regatta...
An incident did occur that brought up a question...

I was on a starboard tack, the other boat (a friend) was on a port tack. It was clear from our perspective that the port side boat wasn't going to clear us with especially with the wind shifts that were occuring. We yelled starboard, he yelled back 'hold your course'...which I assumed meant make my best heading. The wind shilfted so I headed up higher, and I think he was still trying to out run us instead of ducking?!? Eventually he did duck but as he narrowly passed us he yelled at me 'I said hold your f&*$)ing course'.

Later he said he yelled because he was scared and appologized ... my question is should I have followed the lift as I was on a starboard tack....obviously we need to avoid an accident but when he yelled hold your course my choice as I saw it was duck (and possibly wipe out or head up and crash anyways or clear him on his bow.)


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## jarcher

You were wrong:



> RRS 16.2 "Changing Course: In addition, when after the starting signal, boats are about to cross or are crossing each other on opposite tacks, and the port-tack boat is keeping clear of the starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear."


http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing-articles/20795-new-racing-rules.html


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## jarcher

GreatWhite said:


> ....obviously we need to avoid an accident but when he yelled hold your course my choice as I saw it was duck (and possibly wipe out or head up and crash anyways or clear him on his bow.)


If he is planning to avoid you, and you make a sudden last second panicked move as he approaches, like heading down, then you can cause a collision. If he is about to cross your bow and you think you are going to ram him, then pinch up or even tack as necessary, but don't head down. Then file a protest.

If he is crossing your bow already and he is just about there and you have to duck a little, that's easier then tacking, but I think you were describing a situation where you each still had a few boat lengths to go.

Remember, he can't plot a course to avoid striking you if your course in not predictable.


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## GreatWhite

_RRS 16.2 "Changing Course: In addition, when after the starting signal, boats are about to cross or are crossing each other on opposite tacks, and the port-tack boat is keeping clear of the starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear."_

From the description it sounds like the port boat is trying keep clear by ducking but the rule is saying it is illegal for the Starboard boat to bear off, making it hard for port boat to stay clear. In the case I decribed I headed up slightly which would increase the space IF the boat was trying to duck... the problem was I think the other boat was tring to cross our bow instead of ducking...


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## GreatWhite

_If he is about to cross your bow and you think you are going to ram him, then pinch up or even tack as necessary, but don't head down. Then file a protest. 
_

This is exactly what I did (but he asked me to hold my course)...


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## NolaSafari

I would think he wanted you to maintain the course you were on and he would maneuver to avoid you so you don't look like 2 people who meet in a narrow hallway and are dancing around trying to get out of each others way. I could be wrong but that is how I understand the statement. I don't know if you were correct or not it is just what it would mean to me.


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## jarcher

Well he admitted he was scared. If you had to head up to avoid hitting him then that was of course the proper thing to do, although I am having trouble visualizing how heading up as he crosses your bow avoids him. If you headed up to chase a lift then you were in the wrong.

It's up to him how he is going to stay clear. He can duck your stern or if he thinks he can cross your bow without you altering course, then he is free to do that. As long as you are not *forced* to alter your course he is okay. 

I did a little more reading, and it seems that this rule change was designed to prevent exactly what you did. You didn't do it to mess with him, you were just taking advantage of a shift, but the effect was the same from his perspective.


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## US27inKS

If he was able to cross in front of you, then you weren't technically on a collision course. It was just a close crossing. If you changed course, you caused it to become a collision course. I'm not savvy enough about the rules to give you chapter and verse, but I'll bet it's in there. If I were crossing in front of someone, and they changed course to intercept me, I might yell too.


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## jarcher

Wait, was this with you traveling upwind or downwind? I assumed that because you said you were lifted you were both beating...


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## GreatWhite

We were beating (heading up).


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## GreatWhite

Thanks for the input. The name of the game is avoiding an accident.


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## SEMIJim

GreatWhite said:


> We yelled starboard, he yelled back 'hold your course'...which I assumed meant make my best heading.


I would've thought "hold your course" meant "hold your course."



GreatWhite said:


> _RRS 16.2 "Changing Course: In addition, when after the starting signal, boats are about to cross or are crossing each other on opposite tacks, and the port-tack boat is keeping clear of the starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear."_
> 
> From the description it sounds like the port boat is trying keep clear by ducking ...


From what do you infer that?



GreatWhite said:


> ,,,but the rule is saying it is illegal for the Starboard boat to bear off, making it hard for port boat to stay clear. In the case I decribed I headed up slightly which would increase the space IF the boat was trying to duck... the problem was I think the other boat was tring to cross our bow instead of ducking...


I don't see anything in the wording of that rule about heading up or bearing off. I see: "shall not change course."

Diagrams would be good, but given what you've described and the wording of 16.2, it sounds like you were in the wrong.

Jim


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## zz4gta

So you got lifted and he got knocked? Honestly, he probably wasn't going to cross you in the first place if he was letting a wind shift decide his fait. When crossing a starboard boat he needs to make damn sure he can cross, no matter what. If you guys hit, he looses the protest. No question about it. 

And Course, refers to "proper course" which is the most direct route to the next mark. Now, if he tried to dip you, and you drove down on him to push him farther down, then you basically altered course to F*CK him, that won't fly and is why rule 16.2 or whatever was written. What he did was drive himself into a hole.


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## SEMIJim

zz4gta said:


> Now, if he tried to dip you, and you drove down on him to push him farther down, then you basically altered course to F*CK him, that won't fly and is why rule 16.2 or whatever was written. What he did was drive himself into a hole.


I suspect the mark was to starboard of GW's boat and he was lifted by a veering wind, so he took advantage of it. I suspect his competitor _was_ planning to cross in front of him and thought he had room to do it until GW's boat pointed up higher. Now that _would_ have been a proper course for GW's boat to sail, but 16.2 doesn't say "proper course" (as the rules do elsewhere, when they specifically write "proper course"), but say "shall not change course." I'm no RRS guru, but it still looks to me like GW was wrong.

Jim


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## zz4gta

So if that's the case port was going to cross close hauled, then he got knocked, did he not have to bare off to keep moving, changing his course as well? Or did he plan to 'shoot' a starboard tack boat at full speed? 

I understand the rule was written very deliberately, but GW is on starboard, no committee judge is going to find fault in him getting lifted.


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## SEMIJim

zz4gta said:


> So if that's the case port was going to cross close hauled, then he got knocked, did he not have to bare off to keep moving, changing his course as well? Or did he plan to 'shoot' a starboard tack boat at full speed?


Don't know. Wasn't there. That's why I earlier wrote that a diagram would be a good thing. If "boat B" would've otherwise crossed far enough in front of "boat A," he might've had plenty of room to make it even after being knocked. (Keeping in mind that "plenty" is a highly-variable amount .) Assuming he was close-hauled at the time: Yes, he would've had to have altered course.



zz4gta said:


> I understand the rule was written very deliberately, but GW is on starboard, no committee judge is going to find fault in him getting lifted.


Don't know.

Jim


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## AdamLein

The rule talks about the give-way (port) boat being in the process of giving way. The OP did not describe the give-way boat as giving way, and so the stand-on (starboard) vessel was not prevented from altering course.

If the port vessel had been ducking behind the starboard vessel, and the starboard vessel altered course upwind at the same time (what I'm pretty sure the OP is describing), then that alteration would not force the port vessel to continue to keep clear (remember they were on a beat).

There's no way the OP was in the wrong. The port vessel was probably wrong in thinking that she didn't have to give way in the first place; even if she was right, then a collision situation would not apply until after the starboard vessel headed up, at which point the port vessel definitely had to give way.

To summarize: the rule quoted only forbids the stand-on vessel from "hunting" when the give-way vessel is giving way, not when the give-way vessel has asserted that there is no collision situation and refused to give way. The rule doesn't apply.


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## jarcher

SEMIJim said:


> Now that _would_ have been a proper course for GW's boat to sail, but 16.2 doesn't say "proper course" (as the rules do elsewhere, when they specifically write "proper course"), but say "shall not change course." I'm no RRS guru, but it still looks to me like GW was wrong.
> 
> Jim


I agree with this analysis. I don't think "proper course" is relevant here.


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## therapy23

I am glad I don't race.

Sounds too stressful for "nothing" to me.


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## GreatWhite

- a rough sketch!

btw the green boat (us) are on a starboard tack heading close hauled.


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## US27inKS

therapy23 said:


> I am glad I don't race.
> 
> Sounds too stressful for "nothing" to me.


Get a grip man, bragging rights are definitely not "nothing".


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## SEMIJim

jarcher said:


> You were wrong:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RRS 16.2 "Changing Course: In addition, when after the starting signal, boats are about to cross or are crossing each other on opposite tacks, and the port-tack boat is keeping clear of the starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear."
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing-articles/20795-new-racing-rules.html
Click to expand...

Nope. Looks like he, and those who agreed with him, was right, and _we_, and the other boat, were wrong. The rule has apparently been changed since that 2001 article you quoted. From my copy of _Paul Elvstrom Explains The Racing Rules Of Sailing: 2009-2012 Rules_:


> *16 Changing Course*
> ...
> *16.2* In addition, when after the starting signal a port-tack boat is keeping clear by sailing *to pass astern* of a starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear.


(Ed: Emphasis added.)

Based on how 16.2 now reads, it would appear GreatWhite's competitor was clearly in the wrong. GreatWhite was under no obligation to not point up if he so-desired and his competitor had no right to demand that he not do so.

Jim


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## jarcher

I *LOVE* that sketch! 

I don't think it matters whether you were lifted or not, looks like he was going get to know you real well.

You're not allowed to alter your course in such a way that interferes with his effort to avoid you. That's not the same as not being allowed to alter your course at all. If its true that he was going to hit you regardless of that little shift (what could it have been, 3 degrees?) Then I guess your course change makes no difference. 

I was picturing a situation in which, as he was already crossing your bow, you turned up toward him. That would be clearly wrong. But as you present the diagram, it seems to make no difference.


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## jarcher

Ha, looks like SEMIJim and I were posting at the same time... I just saw his post now.


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## GreatWhite

I sent my friend the link for this thread...maybe he will chime in and give his side of the story.

Let the games begin!


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## killarneyonthelake

*hold your course*

From the port taking boat, it was apparent that we would pass in front after Great White called "starboard". In order to ensure that he would not make a conflicting course change and to assure him that I was aware of his right of way and would stay clear I called for him to hold his course. As indicated, Great White then got a wind shift and came up into my intended course and I'm still not sure how collision as avoided. 
I was wrong in assuming that he would hold his course and as I read the rules he was under no obligation to do so. 
I was surprised that he would maneuver to ram my boat as I had no indication that he was about to get a wind shift that would allow such a course change.
My question to him was "why did you change your *%#@! course?" After a beer and some discussions I now understand why he did it and realize that I did not have the right to ask and expect him to hold that course with the revised rule. I will drink his beer but never again cross his bow.


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## US27inKS

Apparently I was unaware of the finer points of the rules. I would have sworn that GW was wrong on this. I was aware that the give way boat requesting that the stand on boat "hold your course" is just a request, and nothing more. To me, it merely means that the give way boat is aware of of you and will avoid hitting you. I did think that GW changing course to create a collision course was somehow illegal.


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## GreatWhite

Is Killarny right to drink my beer in future? Yes
Was I right to almost cause an accident? No
What I would do different...hold course (and probably need to duck under once the port boat was in front of my bow and when got knocked) and THEN call a protest

I had the mentality that I was starboard and I didn't have to worry, port would avoid me...not necessarily the right thing to do


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## WheresTheBrakes

ZZ and GW are definately right .. hahaha 
The port boat can shout "wear a dress !" or "visit Atlanta" he can do whatever the heck he wants, except hit you.. 

If you're on Starboard, YOU have the right of way, and he HAS to get out of your way, or be at fault... if you were breaking 16.2 you would know well and good what you were doing and wouldn't have posted here.. he HAS to duck you, his miscalculation of speed has nothing to do with your right of way.. 

To put it even simpler, if you run across a 6 lane highway, with what you think is plenty of room, and an 18wheeler bears down in lane 5, who should stop and let who pass ?? 

It happens every Wednesday !  We might not be #1, but we know the rules and have a great time..

FWIW - i've even yelled "port!" from the bow and pointed downwind to try to get someone to move


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## jarcher

killarneyonthelake said:


> From the port taking boat, it was apparent that we would pass in front after Great White called "starboard".
> 
> .
> .
> .
> 
> As indicated, Great White then got a wind shift and came up into my intended course and I'm still not sure how collision as avoided.


Based upon this additional information, I don't see why you were wrong. Here is what the RSS says:



> RRS 16.2 "Changing Course: In addition, when after the starting signal, *boats are about to cross or are crossing each other on opposite tacks,* and the port-tack boat is keeping clear of the starboard-tack boat, *the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear.*"


_emphasis added_

So the facts that are agreed to are:

1) Two boats crossing on opposite tacks
2) Port tack boat keeping clear of starboard tack boat

So 16.2 applies. These boats were clearly crossing, so the next rule about crossing astern does not apply. That rule says "Additionally..." so it is not mutually exclusive to 16.2. If it was it would render 16.2 meaningless, and such a result can not be allowed. Every rule is presumed to have some force.

RSS 16.2 says "the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear." It *does not* say "the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear _unless the starboard tack boat gets lifted_".

If GW altered his course in such a way that the port tack boat crossing him had to alter course to avoid a collision then GW is wrong. If GW's course change made no difference in the ability of the port tack boat to keep clear then GW is right.

The port tack skipper posted above that GW's course change _did_ impact his ability to avoid a collision. Setting aside any ambiguity in the actual facts and assuming that this skipper is correct, then GW is wrong.

This seems clear.

Further, if (hypothetically) this wind shift forced the port tack skipper into a collision course (because he choose to approach so close or for any other reason) and as a result of that GW had to alter course, GW is right and should file a protest. The port tack boat must keep clear, regardless of a wind shift. When you live on the bleeding edge, you sometimes get cut. Them is the breaks. But, the facts stated here don't seem to support this analysis. GW posted he head up to take advantage of a lift, not to avoid a collision.


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## WheresTheBrakes

Port should have ducked.. If he caused Starboard to slow down then Port would have the right of way.. Port HAS to slow down, and is at a disadvantage to starboard.. collision or no collision, Starboard has the right of way.. if you can't make it across their bow in time, that is not Starboard's fault..

The nuances of the rules are for race committee to decide... just my 2¢


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## jarcher

*OOPS, NEVER MIND*

My bad, I see that the old 16.2 was completely replaced by the new 16.2. I thought that the "additionally" part was added. I just reviewed the new rules and see what happened. Sorry!

At least now I learned something...


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## AdamLein

jarcher said:


> So the facts that are agreed to are:
> 
> ...
> 2) Port tack boat keeping clear of starboard tack boat


I don't agree that this is a fact. I'm pretty sure that, as the story went, the starboard tack boat asked the port tack boat to keep clear, and the port tack said, "No, I am not going to keep clear. Do I need to state it in any more explicit terms so that the guys on SailNet will understand that I am not going to accept my role as the burdened vessel here?"

I think GW has mentioned this a couple of times and the sketch shows a complete lack of the port-tack boat altering course prior to cursing.


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## bheintz

According to Dave Perry's Understanding Racing Rules of Sailing through 2012 (pp. 112-119) the Starboard Tack boat should not make any last minute course changes that the Port Tack boat cannot avoid in a seamanlike manner.

A similar diagram on page 117 has the caption:



> _P was safely crossing S. Suddenly the wind shifted to the right giving S a "lift" and P a "header." In following the "lift" S changed course so close to P that P was unable to keep clear. Therefore S broke rules 16.1 and 14 (by failing to avoid contact.) _


Dave Perry is a Senior Certified Judge and Chairman of the US Sailing Appeals Committee.


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## sailingdog

Except in this case, I don't know if the port boat was safely crossing the starboard boat. It certainly doesn't look it by the diagram or sound it by the description.



bheintz said:


> According to Dave Perry's Understanding Racing Rules of Sailing through 2012 (pp. 112-119) the Starboard Tack boat should not make any last minute course changes that the Port Tack boat cannot avoid in a seamanlike manner.
> 
> A similar diagram on page 117 has the caption:
> 
> Dave Perry is a Senior Certified Judge and Chairman of the US Sailing Appeals Committee.


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## US27inKS

It appears that this all boils down to whether the port boat would have been able to safely cross in front of GW had GW not altered course. The port boat clearly felt that he could have crossed, and GW didn't. If the port boat couldn't cross safely, GW is free to follow the lift as he would not have changed the port boat's circumstances. If the port boat can cross safely, (if I understand 16.2 correctly) GW is obligated to hold his course and allow him to pass.

If I were GW, I would have held my course. If I had to duck the port boat at the last second, then I would protest him.


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## zz4gta

US27inKS said:


> If I were GW, I would have held my course. If I had to duck the port boat at the last second, then I would protest him.


Same here. Port should not have put themselves in a place where starboard has the option to protest. This is an easy way to get flicked. All Starboard would've had to do is make it LOOK like he had to steer around the stern of Port, then throw the flag. Done.

Personally, I think Port thought they could make it. I think the entire crew was watching starboard, and not the tell tails, so they missed the shift and began to slow down. Thus no longer being able to cross starboard, not to mention, starboard saw the shift and headed up for it. Port should've been knocked, and ducked. That's all there is to it. Ducking is way faster than hitting a boat, or steering wildly around a stand-on vessel. 
Port wasn't paying attention to shifts and over estimated his speed. I honestly don't think Port would've made it anyway.


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## svHyLyte

Guys--

Both yachts were hard on the wind with Port (“P”) feeling he would pass clear ahead if Starboard (“S”) held his course. Had the wind not shifted that might have been the case.

S was then “lifted” in which case P was headed (by how much we do not know). Without a course change, the lift might have increased S’s speed somewhat while the header would surely have slowed P, potentially placing P in S’s track. However, by S heading up to follow the lift—i.e. failing to hold his course—he virtually ensured a collision unless P crash tacked, or ducked his stern, which he evidently managed to do. 
<O
Based on the current Racing Rules, S is clearly at fault and should have been assessed a penalty as he was not maneuvering to avoid a collision, In fact, his action increased the likelihood of a collision (unless P took avoiding action.) If S was truly fearful of a collision, he could have headed down to duck P’s stern and then protested P.
<O
Two things are evident.

Firstly, mixing relatively novice racers with more experienced racers that expect everyone to faithfully follow the rules ensures hazards when the novices don’t act as expected (the hail “Hold your course” means exactly that, not maneuver to advantage).

Secondly, it is senseless to place two yachts and who knows how many crew in harms way for the sake of advantage in a yacht race.

FWIW...


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## sailingfool

GreatWhite said:


> .... It was clear from our perspective that the port side boat wasn't going to clear us ....


It seems clear to me that GW should have proactively responded to this stated perspective under the fundamental rule of avoiding contact. The only response to avoid probable contact would have been to tack. GW could have then protested although it sounds like a rather neighborly race. While tacking may have been emotionally or tactically hurtful, not tacking makes GW part owner of the resulting risk-filled situation.

GW should not have headed up on the lift...that action violated the changing course restriction and had a collision occured, GW would at least have shared the fault. Furthermore, if GW had had his thinking cap on, he would have realized that his lift was KOL's header and KOL's chance to pass clear ahead (which GW already doubted) had vanished. With that information, GW again should have tacked.

Sounds like it worked out OK...but if there had been a collison, and if GW shared the statements made in this thread with a protest committee, I would have expected both boats to have been penalized...the interesting question is what the insurance company would have said to GW about his deductible.


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## CBinRI

I am not an expert on the rules but as the starboard boat with right of way you should not pinch up, particularly if he has asked that you hold your course. He was probably considering whether he could cross your bow (which might require neither of you to change course) but if you make a last minute change in your course (even with the best of intentions) it could result in a slightly more dangerous situation. But the bottom line is avoid a collision at any cost. In a few weeks you likely won't remember where you finished but likely will remember clearly any property damage or (God forbid) personal injury.


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## SEMIJim

svHyLyte said:


> Based on the current Racing Rules, S is clearly at fault and should have been assessed a penalty as he was not maneuvering to avoid a collision, ...


Cite the rule, please?



svHyLyte said:


> Two things are evident.
> 
> ... (the hail "Hold your course" means exactly that, not maneuver to advantage).


No question. But on what basis did "P" have the right to make that demand?



svHyLyte said:


> Secondly, it is senseless to place two yachts and who knows how many crew in harms way for the sake of advantage in a yacht race.


Agreed.

Jim


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## sailingfool

US27inKS said:


> ....
> If I were GW, I would have held my course. If I had to duck the port boat at the last second, then I would protest him.


 Any thought of ducking a port tack boat is nuts...if the port tack boat decides simultaneously to duck you...the situation is set up where collision is almost inevitable...as both boats hunt the other. Think Andrea Doria. The only safe out starboard has in a failing crossing situation is to tack...


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## paulk

"Hold your course." is a nice request, but has been obsolete, like "mast abeam" for more than two sets of rule changes (they get tweaked every four years). There was much discussion of "hunting" being made possible when the rules were changed. It is now permitted. The key word in the rules is immediately. S has to allow P time to react to any course change they make. Since the two boats didn't touch, P obviously had time to react, and there was no foul, except perhaps for the foul language brought on by the surprise that "hold your course" means nothing.


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## jarcher

I'm having trouble reconciling in my head RSS 16.1 and RSS 16.2:

Guide to the RRS



> 16.1 A right-of-way boat changing course shall give other boats room to keep clear.
> 
> 16.2 After the start, a starboard tack boat shall hold her course while a boat on port tack crosses her stern. [In the older rules, starboard was required to hold her course while port crossed either ahead or astern. No longer; she may hunt the port boat if it looks like it is trying to cross ahead.]


In this case, GW was the "right of way boat changing course." But at the same time, GW (deliberately or not) was hunting the port tack boat. You can't hunt a port tack boat without changing course, so I don't see how these are easily reconciled or distinguished.

I just ordered several books, hopefully they will elaborate. I suppose one could infer from 16.2 being qualified to after the start only that 16.1 only applies before the start, but I think that would be wrong.


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## GreatWhite

Just to be clear I did not head up so much I was luffing, it was more following my tells on the sail and keeping maximum speed. 
What defines hunting?


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## SEMIJim

GreatWhite said:


> What defines hunting?


Since they can't read your mind, I would guess it would be behaviour. IOW: What you did . But it's allowed by 16.2 now, in your scenario. Now if he'd been trying to duck under you, and you fell off to interfere with that--basically making him duck lower, _then_ you'd be violating 16.2. As it is: Maybe what you did might be called un-sporting, but it was w/in the rules, looks like.

When he called-out "hold your course," you should've simply re-stated "starboard," IMO.

Jim


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## PalmettoSailor

SEMIJim said:


> Since they can't read your mind, I would guess it would be behaviour. IOW: What you did . But it's allowed by 16.2 now, in your scenario. Now if he'd been trying to duck under you, and you fell off to interfere with that--basically making him duck lower, _then_ you'd be violating 16.2. As it is: Maybe what you did might be called un-sporting, but it was w/in the rules, looks like.
> 
> When he called-out "hold your course," you should've simply re-stated "starboard," IMO.
> 
> Jim


This has been an enlightning discussion but I think at the time I would have followed the shift as did the OP, especially if I wasn't fetching the mark to start with, and I wouldn't consider it unsporting. I was on starboard tack close hauled and maintained that when the wind shifted. Unless you were already crossing my bow, you weren't going to make it anyway.

After reading the rules cited here and looking at the admittedly rough diagram, I think I agree with Jim's statement above. I think the port tack boat had little more than a pocket full of hope that he could cleanly cross the starboard boats bow cleanly as they appeared more or less overlapped. I think I would have stayed close hauled, called out "starboard, you better not hit me you SOB", etc etc. While doing that, I'd have my crew hairtrigger ready to crash tack if the port boat didn't make a move to duck me. If I had to tack (or duck) to avoid a port tack boat, I'd protest and let the rulebook lawyers work it out but I wouldn't wait until a crash was imminent.


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## jephotog

*How would altering course actually affect the possible outcome*

This is outside of the rule question, more of a theoretical one.

If the two boats are close hauled and moving as fast as they can, how would a course alteration affect the potential conflict? It seems that from more than a few boat lengths distance any alteration from the Stbd boat would benefit the Pt boat. If the STBD boat was to pinch he would loose speed making it more likely the Pt boat could pass in front. Same goes for falling off, while the boat may speed up while falling off the VMG towards the mark making it easier for the give-way boat to pass in front.

Any sudden change of course within a few boat lengths would make it harder for the give-way boat to predict how to get by the Stbd boat.


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## Sanduskysailor

*P/S confusion*

This is easily one of most misunderstood right of way rules. If P is keeping clear of S as he is about to cross then S can not alter course without giving P the time and opportunity to keep clear in a seamanlike manner. That's the theory, the reality is that you better have good independent witnesses if you are P because more often than not the PC will side with S on this one.

The unstated practice of PCs is that if you are the burdened boat you better have good independent witnesses to make your point. A lot of times you can be right on the course but don't have sufficient corroborating witnesses to prove it.


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## GreatWhite

JEPHOTOG I think you have a point, the PB was getting knocked and slowing down. The fact he made it behind the SB boat (our boat) proves this. If I (SB) followed the PBs request and held course I think I would have ended up farther aft on the port boat hull at one boat length and likely been tempted to be the one ducking.... What if we both ducked at the same time! It might have been safer to do what I did ??? (hard to say). I should have called Starboard again to make my intentions clear (although I had no obligation to do so.) 

I noticed in the rules that boats are not allowed to make false calls of starboard! This kind of behaviour exists in our club. I can see now more than ever why fake calling is dangerous, as I to a degree didn't believe the port boat when he said hold course. I though he was trying to fake me... I really am starting to see this behaviour as totally unacceptable.


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## killarneyonthelake

I certainly felt hunted after GWs sudden course change but as I was on course for the finish line I suppose I am biased.
My question is now -- If "Hold your course" is not a valid hail (as PAULIK states) how does one, or do you, acknowledge a boat that yells "Starboard?" 
Seems to me it that it acknowledged his concern and confirmed that I (PB) would take avoiding action based on him holding that course.


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## PalmettoSailor

killarneyonthelake said:


> I certainly felt hunted after GWs sudden course change but as I was on course for the finish line I suppose I am biased.
> My question is now -- If "Hold your course" is not a valid hail (as PAULIK states) how does one, or do you, acknowledge a boat that yells "Starboard?"
> Seems to me it that it acknowledged his concern and confirmed that I (PB) would take avoiding action based on him holding that course.


Now I'm confused. I thought this happened at the windward mark.


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## paulk

You could wave? Nod? Say "Aye aye"? Swear? Acknowledging the ROW boat one way or another (even with "hold your course") is polite and certainly seamanlike. How you do it is up to you, so long as you keep out of Starboard's way.


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## WheresTheBrakes

I agree paulK, the port boat can do whatever it wants, the SB boat isn't trying to avoid a collision, the port boat is...


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## SEMIJim

I can understand KOTL's point: He ack'd the SB, called out "hold your course," _thought_ they had an agreement--and proceeded on that basis, only to have the SB come up on him--at which point I'm guessing he had to (nearly?) crash tack.

I'm guessing this'd be one for a rules committee  (I wouldn't want to be on it. I keep changing my opinion back-and-forth .)

Jim


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## PalmettoSailor

SEMIJim said:


> I can understand KOTL's point: He ack'd the SB, called out "hold your course," _thought_ they had an agreement--and proceeded on that basis, only to have the SB come up on him--at which point I'm guessing he had to (nearly?) crash tack.
> 
> I'm guessing this'd be one for a rules committee  (I wouldn't want to be on it. I keep changing my opinion back-and-forth .)
> 
> Jim


Proceeded to do what? Attempt to cross in front? From the diagram (which may be biased but hasn't been disputed) there is no way P was crossing cleanly in front of S.

If P had manuvered to duck S (which would simply require falling off, not a crash tack), after hailing "hold your course" there would have been no issue, even when S altered course to remain close hauled. In fact the course change would have been beneficial to P since they would not have had to duck quite as far. If the diagram is accurate, the issue here is P tried to cross S when they couldn't do it cleanly. The hail was really a bluff which really ment "I'm crossing in front of you, you fall off and duck me". I just don't see from the diagram how P had any chance to pass ahead of S unless they were moving a helluva lot faster than the S boat.


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## SEMIJim

midlifesailor said:


> Proceeded to do what? Attempt to cross in front? From the diagram (which may be biased but hasn't been disputed) there is no way P was crossing cleanly in front of S.


That drawing was from the SB's perspective. I bet if the PB supplied a similar drawing, we'd see something different .

Doesn't change the fact that the SB would seem to have agreed with the "hold your course" response, then changed its mind as a result of conditions. Note that SB didn't _have_ to head up like that, tho it was clearly advantageous for it to do so, for hitting the mark.

Jim


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## Sanduskysailor

Technically, port might be right here. When S heads up and changes course he has to allow port the time and opportunity to keep clear in a seamanlike manner. Unfortunately, the practical reality is that this all changes in the protest room. Unless port has an excellent witness from another boat, he will lose this protest almost every time. It is very difficult for PCs to ascertain whether S headed up or P fell off due to a windshift. The PC will generally rule in favor of the right of way boat. Bottom line if its that close and you are going the right way- duck, if you are going the wrong way then tack early and lee bow.


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## US27inKS

I was browsing through a friend's book with the rules, and multiple applications for the rules with drawings. I wish I could remember the name of the book. Under 16.2 there was an explanation and drawing of this exact situation. In this case, S is wrong and could be protested by P. In this case we also have the unusual circumstance of the S boat skipper admitting coming up with the lift. In most cases I believe the skipper of the S boat would claim no course change, putting the liability back on the P boat. Without a witness, P may be hard pressed to prove his case.


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## paulk

US Sailing Appeal #27 for 2009-2012 addresses this issue. (It is available on the USSaiing website) It states in its entirety:
"A hail to hold course is not binding on a right-of-way boat." 

Many old rules have changed. Be sure your rulebook is current.


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## sailingdog

And this is why I don't race my boat....


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## PalmettoSailor

Sanduskysailor said:


> Technically, port might be right here. When S heads up and changes course he has to allow port the time and opportunity to keep clear in a seamanlike manner. Unfortunately, the practical reality is that this all changes in the protest room. Unless port has an excellent witness from another boat, he will lose this protest almost every time. It is very difficult for PCs to ascertain whether S headed up or P fell off due to a windshift. The PC will generally rule in favor of the right of way boat. Bottom line if its that close and you are going the right way- duck, if you are going the wrong way then tack early and lee bow.


Without being there its really hard to make a call other that what's shown in the potentially biased diagram, but from what that shows, I don't see how heading up would prevent the P boat from falling off to avoid S in a "seamanlike" manner.


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## therapy23

sailingdog said:


> And this is why I don't race my boat....


Yea.

How about a triangle course with each boat (similar of course) starting 1-5min apart, depending in length of course of course.

Everybody gets a perfect line crossing at the best spot hehe!

This would eliminate all that protest and ordering others around stuff wouldn't it?


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## zz4gta

therapy23 said:


> Yea.
> 
> How about a triangle course with each boat (similar of course) starting 1-5min apart, depending in length of course of course.
> 
> Everybody gets a perfect line crossing at the best spot hehe!
> 
> This would eliminate all that protest and ordering others around stuff wouldn't it?


And proceed to make sailboat racing even more boring and less technical.


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## stpabr

Cool site...may help..just have to register with your E-Mail.
Sailing Rules - Rules Quiz - Racing Rules Of Sailing

this situation does not include the "Hold your Course" call....

Situation 
Two J/24s are on a beat to windward and are approaching each other on opposite tacks. The true wind velocity is 12-15 knots.

The Answer

Facts Found:
Situation 1 Green (on starboard) and Red (on Port) were approaching each other in a crossing situation with Green slightly ahead. When the boats were approximately 3 boatlengths apart, Green hailed "Starboard". There was no apparent reaction on Red. At one boatlength, faced with an apparent collision, Green luffed sharply to tack. At the same time, Red bore away sharply in an attempt to pass astern of Green. Seeing Red's course alteration, Green reversed her helm to bear off and swing her stern away from Red. There was no contact and Red passed about 2 feet astern of Green. Green protested Red under Rule 10. Red protested Green under Rule 16. Situation 2 Green (on starboard) and Red (on Port) were approaching each other in a crossing situation. When the boats were approximately three boatlengths apart, Green hailed "Starboard". At one and a half boatlengths, Red started to bear off to pass astern of Green but Green started to bear off at the same time. Seeing this, Red continued to bear off but so did Green. As Green passed to windward of Red, her sails blanketed Red's sails resulting in contact between the rigs and serious damage to Red's mast. Green protested Red under Rule 10. Red protested Green under Rule 16.

Conclusions and Rules that apply:
Situation 1 Rule 10 requires Red to keep clear of Green. If Red keeps clear, Green should be able to "sail her course with no need to take avoiding action...." Rule 14 requires both boats to avoid contact if reasonably possible. Further, Rule 14(a) states that Green (the right-of-way boat) "need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat (Red) is not keeping clear...." Given the conditions and the speed of the boats, once the distance had closed to one boatlength, it was reasonable for Green to assume that she was going to be hit if she didn't do something and that Rule 14 required her to act. The only reasonable way to avoid contact was to tack, and Green began to do so. When Red finally bore off, Green again changed course to comply with Rule 14, this time swinging her stern up to avoid contact. The fact that there was no contact resulted from the action of both boats, not Red alone. Since Green was not able to sail her course, Red failed to keep clear and is disqualified under Rule 10. As to the Red's protest of Green under Rule 16, if Green did break Rule 16 she was compelled to so by Red's breaking Rule 10 and is exonerated under Rule 64.1(c). Red's protest is disallowed. Situation 2 Rule 10 requires Red to keep clear of Green and Rule 16.1 requires Green to give Red room to keep clear when she changes course. Red would have kept clear of Green if Green had not borne off and then continued to bear off further. By doing this, Green did not give Red room to keep clear and therefore broke Rule 16.1. In addition, since her maneuver brought about a collision with damage, Green also broke Rule 14 and is disqualified under both rules. Despite her efforts, Red failed to keep clear of Green and therefore broke Rule 10 however, she is exonerated under Rule 64.1 (c) and Green's protest is disallowed.


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