# jordan series drogue



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

does anyone have first hand knowledge of the jordan drogue?
thanks
''eric


----------



## sailandoar (Mar 20, 2006)

*Bump...*

Inquiring minds want to know!

************************************
*From Pardey website:*

Series Drogues: Can They Work Like a Para-anchor?

We have had several folks ask if a Series Drogue could be used in place of a para-anchor. They also ask our opinion of this gear for storm usage. Though many people talk about series drogues we do not recall meeting anyone who has actually used them in storm situations. The series drogue appears to present a problem when it comes time to recover it. A few months ago we interviewed David Armstrong a New Zealand sailor who lay to a para-anchor for three days during a passage from New Zealand to Tahiti on his 40 foot race boat. Part of that report makes interesting reading before you consider adding a series drogue to your list of cruising gear.
David not only cruises on his own boat but voyages with Henk Haazan on his 50 foot steel Artic island exploration vessel Tiama. As the para-anchor recommended for a boat of this size is not only expensive but large and potentially difficult to handle, David generously offered to make up a series drogue which he felt could be used either over the stern or over the bow. The drogue consisted of more than 40 cones on 250 feet of 1-3/8" diameter line. Once at sea David and Henk decided to test this while running in winds of 20 knots. The series drogue did slow the boat down to about two knots and held her almost directly before the wind. But, as we have read before with the series drogues, retrieval was extremely difficult. "Six strong crew took almost 3 hours to retrieve it and we were totally exhausted even though there was only 20 knots of wind. I doubt a series drogue could be retrieved in 30 knots of wind."

Sailing with Lin & Larry Pardey

**************************************
Note: Jordan Series Drogue


----------



## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

I wonder how the six strong folk were trying to recover it? As it was a 20 knot practice, and even if they did not set a trip line, why not stop the boat?


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Maybe I'm being a little dense here, but why couldn't you attach a couple of floats to the thing and just cut it loose when seas permitted? Then you can circle about and pick it up alongside with little way on.

Given the general idea is free and the fact that one can make them with six hours of effort on a sewing machine, is it ridiculous to consider them disposable post-storm? I wouldn't want to dump a para-anchor-type sea anchor (too expensive) but a Jordan series drogue is simply a hundred cloth cones on the sort of line you can easily replace.

Or am I missing something?


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I have a Jordan Series Drogue for my boat. I spoke with Don Jordan regarding it and the specifications for one for my boat. He's a pretty interesting fellow to talk to.

The JSD is not designed to be used as an anchor-it is a drogue, and is designed to be deployed only from the stern of a boat. The drogue described above is a series drogue, but not a Jordan Series Drogue, as a Jordan series drogue would have a lot more cones. The JSD for my boat is one of the smaller ones and has 130 cones on 270' of line. Line would be 5/8" tapering to ½" for the last 75 cones.

I would not consider them "disposable" for several reasons. First, "disposing" of one violates the MARPOL international treaty. Second, chances are likely that you might need it again, and unless you've got a dozen tucked away in the bilge, disposing of it is rather stupid and foolish. Third, I also don't believe you can make one in six hours on a sewing machine. While you maybe able to make the cones in that period of time, you still require much more time to attach the cones to the line or rode.

A trip line isn't recommended for a JSD as it can interfere with the proper operation of it. Retrieving the JSD is an issue since the cones tend to open as you try to retreive it. Attaching a float doesn't really help you any, since either way, you still have to retrieve it-and it is fairly long-almost 300' on my boat if you count the bridle for it. You really just need to winch it in a bit at a time. It really isn't recommended that you recover one until the wind has basically died down quite a bit.

If you are racing, and need to get back up to speed quickly, you could always turn the boat and sail in the direction of the drogue deployment, and lift it aboard as it slackens-however, you'd have to do so quickly, as the weighted end of the JSD will tend to pull it down if the tension on it disappears. That would probably allow you to retreive it a bit more quickly, but it would take some brute force to do so. 

A Jordan Series Drogue is a fairly bulky item... being that it is, in my case, 270' of 5/8" rope with 130 6" cones attached to it, and 15' of chain, and 40' of bridle. I doubt that anyone is generally going to be carrying more than one aboard a vessel.


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I would expect that, from the Pardey's viewpoint, they would want more than a one time sea anchor or drogue. I would also speculate that they would be ready to resume sailing prior to conditions completely abating. Numerous oceanic areas are more remarkable for their brief lulls than they are for the rarity of heavy weather. Bringing 250' of line, even at diameters less than 1-3/8", back on board with the cones would be taxing and I wonder if most boats would have a capstan on board of a size to handle it complete with the cones. I'm not entirely sure you could buoy it and have it still perform it's job. The Pardey's sail without motor and so, manoeuvering about for recovery would be somewhat complicated, if even possible.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Thanks for the clarifications. I didn't mean to imply that it would be a good idea to dump the series drogue, but that it would be less economically prohibitive to do so than a para-anchor style of sea anchor.

I like the idea of the Jordan series drogue due to my fairly heavy aft bollards and the fact I would need a bridle of some scope to clear my wind vane. Given my windage aft, I think if I needed to "slow down" in a following sea, this sort of drogue would provide exactly the sort of non shock loading drag I would want in a bad blow. 

I have enough purchase points (a crane off the stern, various hard points to which I could lash tackle) that getting it aboard would be, if not easy, easier than on some styles of boat, hence my interest.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The bridle for a JSD is recommended that it be 2.5x the width between the attachment points IIRC.


----------



## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

SD - Have you tried using your Jordan drogue? It was on my list until now, but if recovering it single-handed is a problem....


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Idiens-

I have deployed it to test it... but have never had to use it in a heavy weather situation on my boat. Recovering it isn't too bad...just tedious and time-consuming IMHO.


----------



## clayjay (Apr 21, 2007)

Hey Sailaway 21, I noticed the comment worthy of Homer Simpson at the bottom of your post - "America-Saving Europe's Ass Since 1917".
So that's what you call it ? 
Let's see now....a huge nation......rich in natural resources.....very economically secure.....sits on it's ass for years....watching a psychotic dictator murder his way across Europe....all the while sitting on the fence and pontificating about whether or not it's any of it's business (never stopped you in Vietnam, Iraq etc) and then after years of bitter fighting by which time even the lunatic dictator is starting to think he has bitten off more than he can chew.........it bravely comes swaggering to the rescue.
52 million people died in WW2 alone. Imagine how much suffering could have been spared if you had gotten of your lazy fat asses sooner !


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Clayjay-

Your post is way off-topic... if you have a beef with Sailaway21's signature, raise it your own thread in the off-topic forum.

The Europeans often treat the USA as an outsider...so why should we involve ourselves in an internal European conflict, unless is starts to directly affect us??? WWI was a purely European problem initially... wasn't our turf, wasn't our war. Last I checked, there was no psychotic dictator murdering his way across Europe in WWI. That came much later... in WWII...

WWII was a war that had two components to it... an imperialist Japanese emperor who thought he had the divine right to rule most of Asia, which wasn't a problem until they came along and bombed the neutral US at Pearl Harbor. We've never taken kindly to backstabbers. The other problem was a maniac named Hitler, but was primarily a European problem until everyone but the Brits fell on their faces.

BTW, last I checked, the US also went in and helped pull most of Western Europe and Japan out of the toilet financially and helped re-build those countries following WWII without so much as a thank you for the most part.

Finally, when the US did get off its fat lazy ass and go in to try and stop Saddam Hussein, even as misguided as it was to do so, where the hell was the rest of the world outside of the Brits??? *You can't have it both ways... either the US is the policeman of the world and is supposed to step in, or it isn't and shouldn't step in unless it is involved... *

I also, notice you don't say where you are from... I'm an American and damn proud of it, even if I think GWB is a complete idiot...so piss off.


----------



## clayjay (Apr 21, 2007)

Well actually I am a Brit living in Australia. Not that that has anything to do with anything.
Thats the trouble with America you see, you are so insular. If it isn't going on in America then it isn't news. Have you heard the Princess of Wales is dead yet ??
And speaking of that good 'ol boy Saddam......where the hell where you when he was gassing the kurds....oh sorry, that was before there was oil (read MONEY) involved. 
Hitler and the Nazis were always going to be a WORLD problem.

What did that retard that runs your country have to say about climate change - "I won't sign anything that takes jobs away from Americans". Great !
The whole planet suffers..........but at least the ceptics have jobs !

I'm so glad to hear you are DAMN proud to be American SD.....someone's gotta be I guess.

HAVE A NICE DAY !!!!


----------



## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

clayjay said:


> Hey Sailaway 21, I noticed the comment worthy of Homer Simpson at the bottom of your post - "America-Saving Europe's Ass Since 1917".
> So that's what you call it ?
> Let's see now....a huge nation......rich in natural resources.....very economically secure.....sits on it's ass for years....watching a psychotic dictator murder his way across Europe....all the while sitting on the fence and pontificating about whether or not it's any of it's business (never stopped you in Vietnam, Iraq etc) and then after years of bitter fighting by which time even the lunatic dictator is starting to think he has bitten off more than he can chew.........it bravely comes swaggering to the rescue.
> 52 million people died in WW2 alone. Imagine how much suffering could have been spared if you had gotten of your lazy fat asses sooner !


YOU ARE OUT OF ORDER BIG TIME. This is not the forum for venting your spleen, and I for one found the tone of your post to be offencive.

Quote "Well actually I am a Brit living in Australia." Quote. Well that explains it .


----------



## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

SD, and your post was not off-topic? 

Jordan Series drogue is on a shortlist of thinks I would like to install on my boat when I get her out of slavery (my poor beauty have to work as charter boat for another 2 years).
So, I am very interested to hear about the recovery issues.

My boat have a spade rudder and I think sea anchor (from the bow) may make it brake easier in bad storm.
The drogue (from the the stern) is (I hope) easier on my rudder as the boat moves forward and not backward.
Yes I know some would say that with a sea anchor it does not move at all, but if you put the waves and rode slack into the equation - you can expect significant forward/backward movements.

My idea of recovery (I read all I could about JSD about a year ago) is this:
After the wind is not that bad I could us the engine in reverse to stop the boat and try to recover the drogue with the help of a winch.
There are two main dangers I see: 
1) reversing too much and get the drogue in the prop (ouch), 
2) the cones would tangle into the winch and create a mess.
As a last resort I was thinking of using two shorter ropes:
1) attach one rope to the drogue and winch until the drogue is close to the winch on coach roof. 
2) attach the other rope to drogue as far back as reachable and winch it to the other winch,
3) release the first rope . . 
4) repeat the process (perhaps 20 or more times).
But this is all theory. I never saw JSD in real life. And I never tried to recover anything heavy on open ocean after a heavy storm - I guess the waves should be still quite big - so comments are welcome.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I get the general sense that you can use the waves themselves to haul it in gradually, because at some points the cones and line closest to the stern will be slack, at which point you can haul in a few feet and cleat off.

But I can't see this being a fast job.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

It isn't a fast job... it isn't all that complicated either... Tomaz's idea of using two lines works fairly well, as that is what I did... rolling hitch to the drogue and haul it in until the line is too short... then do it with a second line and alternate. The line I used is a bit longer, and I actually run it forward to a block at the base of the mast and then back to the drogue... that way I can haul in a longer section of drogue between rolling hitches.


----------



## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

A tripping line for a JSD would be good, but if deployed with the drogue, it might twist around it and close the cones and no longer work as a tripping line. 
So how about deploying a tripping line when you want to bring the drogue back on board? How? - The same way as with a stuck anchor. A loop of chain on the end of a long rope with a small parachute drogue (or bucket or maybe a fender) attached to the loop. The idea being to let the boat's forward motion carry the bucket and the chain loop back down the JSD until it reaches the end. Ooops! A grappling iron needs to be on the end of the JSD to catch the chain loop. When it does, haul in the tripping line.
Might it work? Or would it simply snare on the cones? Maybe a ring or funnel would be better at reaching the end sooner than a chain loop.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Idiens-

It would probably damage the JSD far more than anything else. The cones are numerous and fairly small, and made of relatively lightweight materials.


----------



## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

Tripping line:
My first idea when I saw the JSD was to install a tripping line *inside *the cones and only attach it firm at the end - near at the chain . This way the cones would collapse and pile on top of each other. so they would not provide the usual resistance. 
But the arrangement would need stronger rings or something at the cone point. 
I am also not sure of it would not tangle during use anyway, so I gave up the idea until I actually see how it all looks and make some tests.


----------



## SallyH (Apr 19, 2007)

Do-It-Yourself Pattern and Instructions for the Series Drogue.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Tomaz-

While I like the idea of a tripping line for it... I don't think it would work, even running it down the cones... as when you tried to pull on the tripping line, it would shorten up, and would probably damage the cones, which are fairly lightweight before it worked to trip the series drogue.


----------



## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Pity, since my boat is centre cockpit/wheelhouse, recovering a JSD on a winch would not be easy. My current (untested in earnest) alternative is my very long line trailed in a loop between port and starboard winches. Luckily she shows surprising little tendency to broach, maybe its the bulb bow.


----------



## kaniksu (Aug 23, 2006)

I have read where the retrieval of a JSD is difficult mainly because retrieval is done by pulling in the drogue against the open cups. Why not attach a fender with 30ft of light line to the end of the chain weight. When the seas calm down you could circle back to the fender and pull the drogue in from the tail end with the cups streamlined. I don't think the fender would hinder the drogue performance even though it would limit the tail of the drogue from sinking more than 30ft.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Kaniksu-

If you knew how the JSD worked, you'd realize that buoying the weight at the end will prevent it from working properly.


----------



## tager (Nov 21, 2008)

Why not make a tripline of some floating line? It seems that this would not interfere with the submerged cones.


----------



## SailorNate (Sep 19, 2009)

Tager, Kaniksu, the weight on the end of the JSD rises and falls as necessary to prevent slack from forming in the line. This greatly dampens shock loads on the attaching hardware by preventing slack from accumulating in the bridal. I am unable to find my reference at the moment but suffice it to say shock loads are huge and are the second most likely mode of failure (chafe being #1) The two (chafe and shock load) often work in tandem. 

I like the idea of a ring with some sort of drogue that pulls it to the end of the JSD to recover it. If you can keep it from snagging and tearing cones, and if it can pull itself down to the weighted end (remember the boat is very slow, its attached to the JSD) this sounds like a winner.

Nate


----------



## casi (May 5, 2005)

Tie a buoy on a long buoy line to the anchor/weight at the end of your Jordan Series Drogue.

The buoy line should be *longer* than your drogue. 3/8" polypropylene line should work for a 40' boat.

The buoy should be a small lobster/fishing type buoy. Make sure that its much too small to lift your drougue's anchor/weight.

Pick up the buoy by throwing a grapple at the end of a line as your sailing past the buoy and then heave to. If conditions are too rough to pick up the buoy, then you should not be sailing until its less rough.

If you do not practice deploying and retrieving your drogue in calm weather then your not safe.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I floated *another more extensive thread about the JSD* that has some great discussion about it. As I say there, I'm not yet convinced. But that's just speaking theoretically - with absolutely no experience whatsoever...which, of course, makes me an expert.


----------



## popmeeye (Jun 22, 2011)

looking to buy one before I seriously cruise in the next couple years. Anyone tried using a boatlength trailing line to bring the JSD to the windlass spinning the boat once the waves and winds have died to say sub 30 knots? Basically use the bow height and wave action to raise more of the chutes out of the water. Also be kind of lazy with an electric windlass?


----------



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Valiente said:


> Maybe I'm being a little dense here.
> 
> Given the general idea is free and the fact that one can make them with six hours of effort on a sewing machine, is it ridiculous to consider them disposable post-storm? I wouldn't want to dump a para-anchor-type sea anchor (too expensive) but a Jordan series drogue is simply a hundred cloth cones on the sort of line you can easily replace.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


With a comment like that you probably should not be on the water. Do you know how many whales each year get caught in marine debris? Do you know how much effort is spent freeing whales each year from marine debris? Do you think the ocean is a dump? I hope you don't throw your plastic trash in the ocean, and if you do, I hope the coast guard is watching. If you go to sea be responsible for your own junk.


----------



## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

Tomaz - I built my own Jordan and can confirm that a tripping line inside the cones wouldn't work. I have 132 of them any twist at all would make that idea untenable, although it would be nice to have an easy retrieve. Float, as mentioned earlier, aren't the way to go since there is supposed to be a heavy weight at the end (an anchor or the like) plus you want the drogue to be below the level of any white water. If the floats are attached with lines then one is back into the entanglement scenario again.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

popmeeye said:


> looking to buy one before I seriously cruise in the next couple years. Anyone tried using a boatlength trailing line to bring the JSD to the windlass spinning the boat once the waves and winds have died to say sub 30 knots? Basically use the bow height and wave action to raise more of the chutes out of the water. Also be kind of lazy with an electric windlass?


This is actually what Hal Roth talks about in his "Handling Storms at Sea" book. He says you just have to be careful that the windlass doesn't chew up the cones.

Here's a link where we were talking about it...

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seamanship/48237-heavy-weather-sailing-45.html


----------



## funjohnson (Aug 20, 2008)

If I understand the idea of the series drogue correctly... It is to always have controlled pressure on the line, and some of the cones will always be in the right area of the wave and not pull out of the face.

Couldn't similar control be made with 5 or 6 larger drogues in series? If you used 10, 15 or even 20 larger drogues, you would be able to use a winch to pull the line back in with no problem, stopping at each cone to pull it across the winch without ripping it.


----------

