# New Sailor



## Layla

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## Ulladh

Welcome Layla
If possible join a sailing club that also offers ASA sailing courses and has loaner boats. Spend your first summer getting to know sailboats before committing to owning one.


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## Siamese

After a _short_ class? What are you...ADHD? Sorry.

Welcome to the site. I started sailing pre-internet, and it was much more difficult to get reliable information. You should find this site to be a great help to you. It's my favorite sail site, and has saved me thousands of dollars, thanks to the great advice.

Good luck to you with your sailing endeavors.


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## Layla

Ulladh said:


> If possible join a sailing club that also offers ASA sailing courses and has loaner boats. Spend your first summer getting to know sailboats before committing to owning one.


...........


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## Layla

Siamese said:


> After a _short_ class? What are you...ADHD? Sorry.
> Welcome to the site. I started sailing pre-internet, and it was much more difficult to get reliable information. You should find this site to be a great help to you. It's my favorite sail site, and has saved me thousands of dollars, thanks to the great advice.


...........


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## Skipper Jer

Might I suggest reading the book ASA Sailing Books (2 books) | eBay Then start looking at sailboats in your area, in your budget. Once you find a boat you like suggest to the owner that they take you out 3 maybe 4 times to get the hang of sailing prior to purchase. I think the ASA 101 coarse is pretty basic and over priced for what you get. Google says ASA 101 is like $900. Holy mackerel king fish that is a lot of money for 24 hours of lessons. Maybe my first question should have been, "Have you ever been sailing?"


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## SanderO

Welcome....
I jumped in as 100% non sailor and began with a Colgate course I took in City Island, NY. We used Solings and there was 5 mornings of classroom and 5 afternoons of sailing. That was in 1985... A few months later with my bestfriend's help... a great sailor... I bought a 36' sailboat I still own. I spent essentially 5 years of intense learning... sailing,systems and so on. So anyone with some intelligence, manual/mechanical skills and dedication can do what I've done... and that includes solo ocean passages and living aboard for 5 years. It helps to have a mentor around in the beginning to sail and physically help you with projects and sailing. You must and will become self sufficient.

Feel free to message me with any question.

Good luck..


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## Jeff_H

Welcome aboard SailNet and welcome to sailing. There are a lot of ways to learn to sail and develop skills. Your plan sounds very reasonable. 
I would suggest that you try to meet people who sail and go out sailing with them. Try to get out on as many different types of boats as you can so you begin to develop a preference for what appeals to you personally.

You may want to hold off buying a first boat until you have sailed on at least a small variety of boats. There is nothing wrong with a Catalina 22 as a first boat. They sail pretty well for what they are. 

But there also a lot of good boats in that general size that offer some mix of being a better learning platform, better sailing ability, easier handling, nicer interior, lower price, and better build quality.

The other thing is that boats this size seem to be available for next to nothing around here. People seem to end up with boats that size abandoned on their driveways and back corners of boat yards. These backyard boats often are pretty complete but need a lot of soap and water. They may be some other model than a Cat 22, but they are often pretty decent boats but that are no less worthy than the Cat 22.

Jeff


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## Layla

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## Layla

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## SanderO

Layla said:


> Wow! You're brave, a great progress in only a few months. I was planing to own a ~20ft keel sailboat for a few years before even considering something over 30ft. A porty potty and an ice box inside, and an outboard outside - as least as possible to maintain. I might ask lots of questions to you in time. Thank you.


I would not have done a thing without my best friend who was a sailor... and originally had convinced me to be a partner on a new boat... the deal fell through and so having gone to sailing school and read a score of books (before the www)... I decided to give it a go IF he would be my mentor... and spend a LOT of time with me. Had he not I would not even have considered it. He did and it was the best decision of my life... no regrets.


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## SanderO

Speaking of books... an absolute must is a paperback called

*Sailing Illustrated*









Sailing Illustrated the Sailors Bible Since '56: Royce, Patrick M.: 9780930030254: Amazon.com: Books


Sailing Illustrated the Sailors Bible Since '56 [Royce, Patrick M.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Sailing Illustrated the Sailors Bible Since '56



www.amazon.com





It has everything you need to know in one handy book.


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## Layla

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## Layla

SanderO said:


> I would not have done a thing without my best friend who was a sailor... and originally had convinced me to be a partner on a new boat... the deal fell through and so having gone to sailing school and read a score of books (before the www)... I decided to give it a go IF he would be my mentor... and spend a LOT of time with me. Had he not I would not even have considered it. He did and it was the best decision of my life... no regrets.


You're very lucky to have such a best friend; I had teary eyes reading your post. Thank you for sharing.


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## Layla

SanderO said:


> Speaking of books... an absolute must is a paperback called
> 
> *Sailing Illustrated*


I've been looking for a used "The Proper Yacht" I'll order the book you recommended with that.


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## SanderO

Layla said:


> I've been looking for a used "The Proper Yacht" by Bieser. I'll order the book you recommended with that. TY.


If you don't love that book.... I will buy it from you and give it to Sal ;-)


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## Jeff_H

My only caution on Beiser is that it is so extremely out of date and that it represents more of a coffee table book point of view than a useful source of information. Frankly books like that are so full of misinformation that they are a little risky for a new sailor.

Jeff


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## SanderO

I have mentioned/written about my "getting into sailing" story many times on this forum... but I will do a formal account in this thread you have started.

I grew up on Long Island. We lived ten minute drive to Hempstead Harbor. I had no friends whose family had boats. I was never on a recreational boat. I did take the Ferry to the Statue of Liberty... to Staten Island and to Fire Island for work... I had designed houses built on Fire Island and they could only be reached by Ferry and walking.
I did take Ferries in Europe... across the English Chanel and to and from Crete. That's the extent of my being on boats.

I went to college in Pittsburgh,,, two rivers and I don't recall ever seeing a boat. Boats were the furthest thing from my mind. I had a roommate, actually 2 who were Turkish...They became my best friends. After college one of them and I moved to New York to "work". I did a fair amount of travel in my 20s and 30s...

In addition to working as an architect in my own small residential practice... one of my clients advised me to learn and do woodworking. It was a good idea. I need a shop space and machinery and knowledge/skills. I set about becoming a woodworker. I loved making things and seeing the fruits of my labor in weeks as opposed to years as with design of houses. I like self learning wood working...,which actually wasn't all that hard to do.

One Spring day in 1984 my friend Alev, or Jack as he was called, asked me to help him work on a boat he had bought the previous year. He knew I was a woodworker and had "tools". He didn't have a car as many who live in Manhattan don't. I did because I grew tired of renting cars to use to visit my projects. It was also nice to be able to get out of the city and visit friends and family.

So I pick him up with my first car... a red BMW 320 and we drove to New Rochelle where his boat Diva, a Contest 31HT was stored for the winter. And so we worked for several weekends doing "Spring Prep"... sanding, replacing things... whatever. It was relaxed and pleasing to be working outside and meeting the other sailors. I liked it.

When the work was done... he asked me if I would like to sail with him when he brings his boat to its summer mooring. Sure why not???????? So the next weekend after his boat was splashed we drove to the boat yard stopping in a deli for food and drinks. An adventure!

I didn't know a thing and would do whatever he explained to me. I did not know sailing jargon either. We motored out of the boat yard slip and he signalled the bridge with a horn.... a few seconds later the bridge raised and we motored out toward LIS. In the Sound I help him set the sails... a hank on Jib and raise the main. The wind filled in and WOW we began sailing... the motor was turned off and we silently sailed at about 4 knots or so...There we were LI to the South...the CT shore to the north and water to the east. It was a 100 mile trip and would take us 2 days. Sailing was magical... I loved the feeling... the wind... the sound of the waves... But the whole thing was mysterious and not intuitive. He taught me a few things and I was told to study the charts. I did. We had to ded reckon... taking bearings on land features or buoys and plot the fix on the chart and write the time. This wasn't too difficult for me... perhaps because I as an architect????

After sailing east all day on a broad reach we docked into Saybrook (I think) and tied along side a restaurant which had a bulkhead. We would eat there and sleep on board. The entire adventure was fantastic... everything about it. 
The next day we sailed to Shelter Island...closed up the boat... inflated the dink... put putted to the shore and left the dink at Jack's Marine... then walked to the Ferry and then took a jitney bus back to NYC. The next day took the train to retrieve my car. WOW what a fun adventure.

Jack invited me to sail several times that summer. I would pick him up and we would drive to Shelter Island... sailed for the weekend around the East End and then drive home. What a life!

The following Spring Jack calls needing a ride to CT. Sure man... let's go. I picked him up and he told me to drive to Norwalk. We were headed for Norwalk Cove Marine. Why? He wanted to look at a Contest 48 which was for sail there. The thing was he couldn't afford the boat... even used or whatever... His plan was that I would become his partner. I would put up cash... he would sell his boat. I was to modify the twin crew berths in the V making it into 2nd owner's cabin. This was only my 2nd boat up close and personal and it blew my mind. WOW just WOW it was gorgeous and huge. He was confident he / we could "do it". 

I went home and bought a dozen books about sailing and sailing magazines. After a week of total immersion I told him YES let's go for it.... I registered in City Island in a Learn to Sail course.... I was dropped into a new universe and I was learning my way about. But I had Jack who knew the ropes.

By mid summer he told me his GF did not want to share a boat and they would keep Diva... I was to be boatless. I decided to look for a small boat... around 30' like Diva and get into sailing. I went to see many boats using a broker... None of them was as nice as the 31HT.... so I decided to ask the Contest dealer if he had a small Contest to sell me. He showed me the 36s. It was new and gorgeous... and scary! I called Jack and asked him to drive up with me to look at the boat. He said I should buy it. He told me to get a surveyor. I did. I closed in August and Jack came with me to sail the boat to Shelter Island where I had arranged for a mooring next to Diva. I name the new boat Shiva...We were Diva and Shiva! Jack sailed with me every weekend until the season ended and with me to sail to New Rochelle to his boat yard for winter storage.

I was already fitting out the boat with new / more equipment. I studied and planned and planned and then slowly did the installation...Over 5 years I added a below decks AP, a loranC, refrigeration, a new dodger...a high output alternator and smart regulator/monitor, new stanchion bases. an electric windlass and chain... an Espar cabin heater... a new head... removable inner fore stay, roller furling, staysail track, storm sails, solar panels, and on and on and on. There was always something to do, to improve, to add. And every time I left the boat it had to be better than when I arrived... even if it was just waxing.

I sailed in everything... storms, snow, nothing was too much. I sailed as far as Maine... and in the Spring of 91 I decided to prepare to sail off shore. I would do my first offshore in the Marion Bermuda race... not because I am a racer... but because I would sail surrounded by 200 boats... attend their safety seminars and so forth... and have a crew. I got a life raft and an SSB, was inspected and off we sailed. We started in the middle of the flee because of our PHRF rating. My crew was Jack, or course, the broker, his girl friend, my upstairs neighbor and a friend from back in LI I knew since I was in 1st grade who happened to be a woodworker with a shop in Brooklyn. 
By the time we reached to west end of Vineyard Sound we were last... and as night came all we saw were white lights.
W+But we started to sail better with a better point of sail. In the winds was freshening all through the night. When we reached the Gulf Stream we were in a full gale. This will be the worst conditions I have sailed in in 35 years. it was hell. Everyone was sea sick. Marty's GF Karen was swept over board. She had her harness on and we hauled her back in..

In the morning the gale had passed and we were out of the Stream and dealing with HUGE rolling waves... 25 to 30 feet high... not breaking. It was amazing... like sailing on rolling hills. We got to Bermuda... no electronic positioning devices... we had to do celestial navigation... and ended exactly were be began... in the middle of the fleet. We did it in 4 day 16 hrs which is pretty respectable.

I spent some time in Bermuda at the BYC and then my crew arrived from the States and we sailed back in fair weather.
I decided to take off for the Caribbean in the Fall. I had about 5 months to get rid of everything... YIKES... Jack drove me to Greenport where I would depart. I gave him the BMW and sailed south... and lived aboard for 5 continuous years...

I still have Shiva...

And that's the story.


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## jvlassak

Layla said:


> Other than that, I have Compac 23, Precision 23, Flicka 20, and such on my short list, but they are all very different boats with very different sail characteristics, I assume.


We used to have Precision 23 - a fun boat to sail, great for day sailing and short cruises in protected waters. Moreover, she's easily trailerable, which means you can take her anywhere...


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## midwesterner

I sailed a Catalina 22 at Keylime sailing school and charters in Key Largo FL. Nice boat. Fun to sail.


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## MoonBeamEstate

Learned to sail by book (before youtube) and trial and error. If you have never been on the water a class may be good. If you know a boater to get you started, that would be better.


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## Minnewaska

Welcome aboard.

Learning can be done in every way described above, by others. Personally, I much prefer to own the boat, so that I can have unscheduled access and I find it just the way I left it. One never knows what the last renter just did. If they smacked the rudder or keel, they may just walk away and not confess. (don't over react to this point, renting is done safely all the time)

The thing to be very careful of, when looking at 22ft boats is their condition. Many things aboard, such as the sails or the standing rigging (holding up the mast) or the outboard, or the deck or keel, could have issues that cost more than the boat is worth. Find someone knowledgeable to help you assess these.

I wouldn't get crazy about condition, you just want safe. Even if you had to pay to drag it to a landfill, when you were done with it (extreme point), it may still be a better deal than renting. Just find one that won't become a burden.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Layla said:


> I've been reading about sailboats a lot lately. Sails, hull designs, keels, ratios, diesels, pumps, repairs, blisters, and the list goes on. Unfortunately, everything is in theory at the moment.


I would dump all that junk and visit the local yacht/sailing club that has races with the type of boat size you are interested in.
On race days (saturdays, often) people are always looking for crew. Newbies are fine. First day out you sit and watch. If they like you they invite you back next week.
Often the clubs have a crew list of people wanting to sail. You don't need to be a racer at heart, but a few weeks racing will teach for more than every course (and most books under the sun).

As for course learning... My new GF is learning knots. I said we only use 3 (THREE) on this boat: Bowline, reef knot and round-turn-'n-2-half-hitches. Then the rigger is on board yesterday doing some stuff up the mast and he uses a Halyard Knot. GF says why didn't I teach her that? I say, I only use it once every 2 years and I look it up on the internet. My brain doesn't have space for irrelevant garbage.


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## Minnewaska

MarkofSeaLife said:


> we only use 3 (THREE) on this boat: Bowline, reef know and round-turn-'n-2-half-hitches.


I try to keep it simple too. My wife's go-to knot, for anything she can make it work on, is the round turn and half hitches. Even when a bollard really wants an easy clove hitch, she'll wrap twice and do the half hitches. Get's the job done.

I could not get by without the trucker's hitch to lash things down and a rolling hitch for the snubber, but those and your list are all I commonly need.


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## Minnewaska

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I only use it once every 2 years and I look it up on the internet.


You or she should get an animated knot app, for your phone. No internet required and you can look it up, undetected, like you were checking email, then spring into action, like you were a master marlinspike.


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## Wade

Layla said:


> Hi there! Thank you for your kind, thoughtful reply.
> I've been reading about sailboats a lot lately. Sails, hull designs, keels, ratios, diesels, pumps, repairs, blisters, and the list goes on. Unfortunately, everything is in theory at the moment. Eventually, I would like to be able to live aboard in a full keel ~35ft, but too early to even plan that; for now, I need to learn how to sail and have some hands on experience. I wanna skip the whole laser theme and start with a small keel sailboat like a Catalina 22.
> I believe it's ASA 101, the class that I want to take in the beginning of the show. After that, I would love to buy an old C22, instead of spending money on a sailing club membership, and 'daysail' the heck out of the boat before my next step.
> Pretty confused here, as you could guess.


Hi Kayla,

I was in your situation a few years ago. My main mistake was buying a boat before I knew what I wanted, but other than that it has been great.

I am largely self taught ( I solo sail a lot) and think that you can do it that way, but you can also learn quicker by being around people. If sailing club dues aren't too much, it could be worth the investment


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## Skipper Jer

Compare the cost of club dues against ASA fees. Kayla, are there any sailing clubs in your area?


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## Lanealoha

Where will you be sailing when you do? Are you learning in a bay or an Ocean? A lake? Mountain lake? Or one of those low land lakes? Just curious, doesn't really matter. I sailed as a kid on Tulls Bay in NC in a sunflower, it was rad. We'd sail for hours flip that thing, right it, flip it right it......then, maybe we'd try not to flip it. As an adult child a few years ago I took it back up (sailing not the Sunflower) on Mountain Lakes at around 7-8000' elevation, that really taught me about sailing....gusty, erratic winds, influence of land forms and differential heating and cooling, mountain lake sailing will teach you a lot very quickly, or you'll quit....We sailed a Catalina Capri 14 for a summer, sold it, sailed a Laguna windrose 19' for a summer, sold it and sailed a WWP 19 for 2 summers, sold it, now on a Catalina 36 exploring the islands of southern California and planning a sail to Panama in the next year or 2. 

Have fun good luck....


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## The Big Cat

I was formerly a member of a club that provided sailing lessons on Ideal 18 sloops. As I recall the program, cost $700 per year and included instruction and unlimited use of a boat when they weren't being used for instruction. It was a tremendous bargain and participants could get quickly integrated into weeknight racing and frequently enjoyed opportunities to day sail or cruise on other boats. It's my experience that there are more boats than there are people to sail them; if you are pleasant and adventurous you'll have ample opportunities to sail on other people's boats. Check the "Club Program'" page at the Shumway Marine website, the manufacturer of the ideal 18; they list more than two dozen clubs with Ideal 18 programs.


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## capta

In your situation my suggestion would be to buy a 15 foot or smaller very cheap dinghy that's pretty beat up, but serviceable. This is not going to be a boat to take your friends out on, but instead you will be crashing into docks, running aground and even tipping her over on occasion. This is the boat to make all your beginner's mistakes on, before you buy a nicer, more expensive boat. And believe me, if you start with the more expensive boat, you are still going to make all the same mistakes, classes or not, but the repair bills will be much more expensive, and if you load the boat up with friends, there is the possibility of someone getting hurt. Sailing isn't rocket science, but it does take a lot of sailing to get it.
This is how almost every professional sailor of note learned to sail, not through some expensive cookie cutter course.
Along with your little beater, I would highly recommend a great little book called Royce's Sailing Illustrated, a fun yet very comprehensive book filled with important information for the novice sailor or experienced professional. No massive preachy tome this, just a well put together book with everything from rigging, docking and even splicing. I've been using it to teach sailing for over 45 years, and still refer to it now and then, myself.
As you gain sailing experience, and spend time with other sailors, either just chatting, or sailing on their boats, you'll gain a much better idea of the bigger boat you will actually want to own.


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## mstern

Hi Layla. Welcome. I think the the C22 would be a great starter boat. They are very forgiving, and because there are so many of them, they are easy to buy and sell. I wouldn't recommend the boat unless what you really want is a daysailer; the C22 is marketed as a trailerable cruiser, but unless you enjoy camping, it's not the boat to be spending the night on. That being said, they work great as a daysailer. I timeshared on one for a season; it was my first keelboat experience as a skipper, and it was a blast. 

Over the years, I've sailed on a bunch of similar boats, as well as some true keelboat-pio daysailers. As far as I am concerned, the main benefit of getting a "cruiser" like a Catalina 22 over a true daysailer is the head. The Oday Day Sailer and the Rhodes 17 are both real day sailers; keelboats with large cockpits and small cuddy cabins. For my money, they are both more fun to sail than the Catalina 22 and similar boats. However, if you have to pee, it's "hold it or go over the side". On the Catalina, there's a porti-pottie in the main cabin. To get any privacy, you have to close up the companionway, but it's there if you need it. When I went to buy my first big boy boat, finding a boat with the head behind the door was a priority (especially for the Admiral). I looked at every kind of boat in that size range (22-25 foot), and I wound up buying an Oday 23 instead of another Catalina 22. The head on the Oday was behind a real wood door. That feature was unique on boats that size.

Anyway, I also second the idea of buying your own boat to learn on. You can hire a captain to come to your boat and give you lessons instead of taking an ASA course. I've been sailing most of my life and have owned one kind of boat or another for the past 25+ years. But when I bought my "new" boat a couple of years ago, I hired a captain to come aboard with me and my wife for a few sails. This boat is more than twice as heavy as my Oday was, and the first boat I've owned with a wheel and an inboard engine; for a few hundred dollars, I got a good tutorial on how to handle my boat under power and some tips on engine maintenance. I highly recommend it. I'm a big fan on sailing on as many different boats as you can; it will help you decide what you like or don't like when you move up (if you do). But there's nothing like learning on your own boat.


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## Layla

Jeff_H said:


> My only caution on Beiser is that it is so extremely out of date...


I was considering that old book as I'm hoping to eventually own an old full keel sailboat - way in the future. I thought that book would be full of info on such boats, but as you mentioned the misinformation concerns of yours, I think I'll pass it for now. thank you.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Layla said:


> I'm hoping to eventually own an old full keel sailboat


Why?

Old books may recommend them. But more modern viewpoints may differ.


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## Layla

SanderO said:


> I have mentioned/written about my "getting into sailing" story many times on this forum... but I will do a formal account in this thread you have started...


Thank you for making time and sharing this amazing story.


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## Layla

jvlassak said:


> We used to have Precision 23 - a fun boat to sail, great for day sailing and short cruises in protected waters.


I've also heard many good things in regards to their quality.


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## jvlassak

Layla said:


> I've also heard many good things in regards to their quality.


The Precisions are well built, but they're not designed for the open ocean. I would have kept her, but maintaining two boats was just too much. Although in retrospect and in comparison with our current boat, maintenance was a piece of cake. I still miss sailing that boat and wish we hadn't sold her.


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## Waltthesalt

The catalina is probably the longest run trailable sailboat. So there are a lot around to choose from, I wasn't aware that there was a fixed keel version. The swing keel has advantages of not requiring in water moorage, a big cost item, and being able to work on it in the backyard and for winter storage. It however doesn't have the stability of a fixed keel boat. So it depends on the waters you're sailing in. For San Francisco Bay I had a Cal 20 ant it was great there, while the Catalina's sometimes had rougher going. In long Island Sound or the Great South Bay it would be a different story.. I think that learning to sail on smaller boats is the best way to get a good feel of how boats handle. If there is an opportunity for racing club boats that is a great way to understand how to make a boat go. Definitely a good idea to sail before you buy whether in a class or a rental. Usually there are boats popular in an area. This can be a good choice ad they may have a class association where you can join a cruise and get info and advice on your boat. You also can find a good selection of boats, possibly boats that other owners know of.
You're on the right track that at some point it's time to put down the books and start sailing


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## Layla

MoonBeamEstate said:


> Learned to sail by book (before youtube) and trial and error...


Would be ideal for me...


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## Layla

Minnewaska said:


> ...Personally, I much prefer to own the boat, so that I can have unscheduled access and...
> ...Find someone knowledgeable to help you assess these...


You and I think alike. I'd love to sail my boat whenever I feel like to. If I can find a cheap simple dock, then it would be great.\


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## Layla

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I would dump all that junk and visit the local yacht/sailing club that has races with the type of boat size you are interested in...


I've thought about that. It's just I don't do good in social situations. I'm too introvert to get involved with that. Still, I'll keep it in mind.


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## Layla

Wade said:


> Hi Kayla....My main mistake was buying a boat before I knew what I wanted, but other than that it has been great.
> 
> I am largely self taught ( I solo sail a lot) and think that you can do it that way, but...


...........


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## Layla

.....


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## contrarian

Layla said:


> I'm too introvert to get involved with that. Still, I'll keep it in mind. TY.


Introverts are just closet extraverts that haven't come out yet. When they do finally come out it's usually time for Sadie to bar the door !


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## Layla

Lanealoha said:


> Where will you be sailing when you do? ..... now on a Catalina 36 exploring the islands of southern California and planning a sail to Panama in the next year or 2.


Ocean...
I liked your progress abs how you learned and had fun doing it. Catalina 36 is a serious sailboat, I believe... thank you.


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## Layla

The Big Cat said:


> Check the "Club Program'" page at the Shumway Marine website, the manufacturer of the ideal 18; they list more than two dozen clubs with Ideal 18 programs.


I'll check it out.


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## Layla

capta said:


> In your situation my suggestion would be to buy a 15 foot or smaller very cheap dinghy that's pretty beat up, but serviceable....
> ....Along with your little beater, I would highly recommend a great little book called Royce's Sailing Illustrated....


..........


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## Layla

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Why?
> 
> Old books may recommend them. But more modern viewpoints may differ.


Good point.


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## Layla

contrarian said:


> Introverts are just closet extraverts that haven't come out yet...


Are they?


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## Interlude

Layla said:


> My C22 will be a beater too, the cheapest sailable one. Something that I can walk away from with minimum financial damage - in case. I know it's a keel boat, but I really want to skio the dinghy phase. Another book added to my reading list, thank you.


Welcome, I also don't know who this Kayla girl is either Layla!

We learned to sail by buying a small boat, a book and having a dream. There are going to be 50 opinions if you ask 50 people and all are well meaning. I think you get it that it is going to have to be your path and not any other's. What worked for us was a simple keel boat that was seaworthy, trailerable, inexpensive, and small enough that where you sat in the cockpit made a difference yet could be a pocket cruiser. The site below has much information and in particular seek out the articles about 'The Best Boat to Learn to Sail" and "Sweet 16". Truly we have never met anyone who had one that didn't become a sailor.





__





North Carolina Sailboats






www.sailboatrichlands.com





A website with a very active owners association that features such boats



https://cpyoa.com/forum/



We still have one in addition to our larger cruising boat. It is what we use to sharpen our keel boat skills. Don't hesitate to reach out with a PM if wish more info and also wish the perspective of my better half for a lady's view. Susan on same said little sloop threatening to leave me stranded on a small island. ?


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## HadziJo

IMHO once you get your initial class completed, join a local club and go race! I didn't notice where you live, but a place like Downtown Sailing (Baltimore, MD) has Thursday night racing using club-owned J22 and Sonar23 (my favorite) keelboats. they have at least 20. and they race a loooong season. Racing will get you to hone your skills quickly and build good instincts so you'll be able to react without having to think long and hard about what to do next. Additionally, you'll get the opportunity to work various jobs in different races. One other advantage is learning the wild and crazy "sea stories" the others will tell - after all you're the newbie that hasn't heard them all yet. 
Club races are good, and charity races are great (sometimes less pressure - but always great party)
My Posiden grant you fair winds and following seas on your journey.


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## Layla

mstern said:


> ...I think the the C22 would be a great starter boat. They are very forgiving, and because there are so many of them, they are easy to buy and sell. I wouldn't recommend the boat unless what you really want is a daysailer....
> ....As far as I am concerned, the main benefit of getting a "cruiser" like a Catalina 22 over a true daysailer is the head. The Oday Day Sailer and the Rhodes 17 are both real day sailers; keelboats with large cockpits and small cuddy cabins. For my money, they are both more fun to sail than the Catalina 22 and similar boats. However, if you have to pee, it's "hold it or go over the side". On the Catalina, there's a porti-pottie in the main cabin. To get any privacy, you have to close up the companionway, but it's there if you need it...
> ....Anyway, I also second the idea of buying your own boat to learn on...


Your post explains most of my reasonings with the C22 choice. I also think that C22 gives the nicest cabin for its size. The porta potty is there and requires no maintenance. Ideal beginner for me. thank you.


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## Layla

Waltthesalt said:


> ...I wasn't aware that there was a fixed keel version. The swing keel has advantages of not requiring in water moorage, a big cost item, and being able to work on it in the backyard and for winter storage. It however doesn't have the stability of a fixed keel boat. So it depends on the waters you're sailing in... You're on the right track that at some point it's time to put down the books and start sailing


............


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## Minnewaska

Layla said:


> You and I think alike. I'd love to sail my boat whenever I feel like to. If I can find a cheap simple dock, then it would be great. it might sound redundant but i might hire a surveyor even shopping for a C22.


Sounds like cost is a concern, so you may want to consider a mooring, if they exist in your waters. You'd need a dinghy, but there are very inexpensive options, especially if you're willing to row. Moorings also have the advantage of being substantially easier for new sailors to manage, than a dock.



Layla said:


> I'm too introvert to get involved with that.


I suspect there is more to this than advertised. I doubt a severe introvert would voluntarily post their picture. Maybe it's not your actual picture, or maybe you're not as introverted as you think.


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## Ina

Hi, welcome, Layla!

From what you say, though, I would try to make your dream more *concrete*, be sure that it is what you really want, and get to benefit from the knowledge of people you can meet in a local marina. They may give you key points on what to think about as a sailor!

Secondly, from what you say, *I wouldn't purchase a boat right now*. A boat requires full commitment, and you'll likely be more fit for using it and tackling issues when you know more about sailing and have got more experience.

It'll also help you with your budget, as you'll have more to spend on it if you wait at least a couple of months before starting to round-up potential candidates for what you want to do!

If I were you, I'd read some recent books on boats conceptions. They will underline challenges with some designs, show you how people managed to fix things up, and build up your knowledge!

You may want to read some stuff, *but be sure it isn't something you can't understand, as it'll prove itself worthless if you take too technical and advanced stuff!*

Go *experiment* sailing. Reading about it is good, but you shouldn't stay to a theorical level and get *practice*. When the Covid-19 situation comes to an end, ask people who go out sailing daily at a nearby marina if you can get to sail with them! *Ask questions, and retranscript the key parts of it!

Learning is a long process, and in sailing, you'll still learn things even 10-15 years from now, when you'll be so much more experienced!*

And if I can be of any help, tell me, I'll be glad to help you out!


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## Jim_W

Where will you be sailing??? I know of a C22 for sale in the Chesapeake.


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## Layla

Interlude said:


> We learned to sail by buying a small boat, a book and having a dream. There are going to be 50 opinions if you ask 50 people and all are well meaning. I think you get it that it is going to have to be your path and not any other's...


This was very helpful. The photo must be your Cal20 and your other half. I'll check out the links and might ask a few questions in the future; thank you.


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## Layla

HadziJo said:


> IMHO once you get your initial class completed, join a local club and go race...


You know many people have been recommending racing. I might consider it, ty.


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## Layla

Jim_W said:


> Where will you be sailing??? I know of a C22 for sale in the Chesapeake.


...........


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## SanderO

Layla said:


> You know many people have been recommending racing. I might consider it, ty.


I don't recommend formal racing. The deal is that for most racing... a skipper requires crew and so it's a non brainer to get on a boat which needs crew for a race. Races are sponsored by yacht clubs.

You could try the approach of going to boat yards in Spring when skippers are getting their boats ready... chat them up... offer to help... tell them you want to learn and get a boat. Skipper might accept your help and offer to take you sailing.
Or... you could go to a marina and walk around... assuming you can get in and try the same thing if you see someone working in their boat... cleaning or waxing... chat them up and see if you can wangle an invite to sail.

Many sailing schools have boats and make them to "graduates". Presumably once you passed the course you can get some more on water experience on these boats.

Try to get up close and personal with as many boats in the size range you think you want. You may find that it's OK or maybe too small. But you should be pretty sure of what you want before closing a deal. Be advised that you will lose money and time going from one boat to the next... but you will accumulate experience.

Unlike most I bought a new too big for me boat and learned on it. I had Necip as a mentor. I had very little on water experience, I had no repairs for years... but I did enormous amount of work on new installations of equipment. As I mentioned previously my ramp to offshore was 5 years... I was in no hurry but if I were I could have compressed it by a year or two.

Do it right... don't take short cuts and avoid detours.


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## Layla

Minnewaska said:


> Sounds like cost is a concern, so you may want to consider a mooring, if they exist in your waters. You'd need a dinghy, but there are very inexpensive options, especially if you're willing to row. Moorings also have the advantage of being substantially easier for new sailors to manage, than a dock.
> ....
> I suspect there is more to this than advertised. I doubt a severe introvert would voluntarily post their picture. Maybe it's not your actual picture, or maybe you're not as introverted as you think.


.........


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## Layla

Ina said:


> ...From what you say, though, I would try to make your dream more *concrete*, be sure that it is what you really want, and get to benefit from the knowledge of people you can meet in a local marina. They may give you key points on what to think about as a sailor...


...........


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## Layla

SanderO said:


> I don't recommend formal racing. The deal is that for most racing... a skipper requires crew and so it's a non brainer to get on a boat which needs crew for a race. Races are sponsored by yacht clubs.
> 
> You could try the approach of going to boat yards in Spring when skippers are getting their boats ready... chat them up... offer to help... tell them you want to learn and get a boat. Skipper might accept your help and offer to take you sailing.
> Or... you could go to a marina and walk around... assuming you can get in and try the same thing if you see someone working in their boat... cleaning or waxing... chat them up and see if you can wangle an invite to sail.
> 
> Many sailing schools have boats and make them to "graduates". Presumably once you passed the course you can get some more on water experience on these boats.
> 
> Try to get up close and personal with as many boats in the size range you think you want. You may find that it's OK or maybe too small. But you should be pretty sure of what you want before closing a deal. Be advised that you will lose money and time going from one boat to the next... but you will accumulate experience.
> 
> Unlike most I bought a new too big for me boat and learned on it. I had Necip as a mentor. I had very little on water experience, I had no repairs for years... but I did enormous amount of work on new installations of equipment. As I mentioned previously my ramp to offshore was 5 years... I was in no hurry but if I were I could have compressed it by a year or two.
> 
> Do it right... don't take short cuts and avoid detours.


.........


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## johnny buddha

HadziJo said:


> IMHO once you get your initial class completed, join a local club and go race! I didn't notice where you live, but a place like Downtown Sailing (Baltimore, MD)


I, too, learned to sail at the DSC.

My wife has been sailing/racing since before she could walk, and whenever we went to Hawaii to visit her folks we would go out for the Friday Night Races. I was designated "mobile rail meat", aka, "weight on the high side", as I had no sailing knowledge whatsoever.

Eventually, we decided to get me up to speed with lessons at the DSC, and a few years later we bought our first boat - a Beneteau First 38 which would fit our family of 5 for cruising weekends and still be fun to race around the buoys on Wednesday nights with our local racing association.

Learning the basics on a small keelboat is directly applicable to a larger keelboat, although I've gotta say that docking a J22 or Sonar was much easier than our 38.

Welcome to the sailing world, Layla!


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## Layla

johnny buddha said:


> Learning the basics on a small keelboat is directly applicable to a larger keelboat, although I've gotta say that docking a J22 or Sonar was much easier than our 38.
> 
> Welcome to the sailing world, Layla!


Your keel boat comment gives me hope; I really hope to become a goos sailor in a ~20ft something keel sailboat.
I don't know if I'm part of the sailing world yet, but thank you for the kind welcome.


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## capta

Layla said:


> You know many people have been recommending racing. I might consider it, ty.


Might I suggest that you learn the language (terminology) before you go out racing with any serious racer. You won't be a lot of help if you don't know what things are called. Learn to sail first, then improve your shills racing. Racing is an art all it's own, and less useful to a cruiser than one might think. Fast is rarely, if ever, comfortable, on a boat.


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## Layla

capta said:


> Might I suggest that you learn the language (terminology) before you go out racing with any serious racer. You won't be a lot of help if you don't know what things are called. Learn to sail first, then improve your shills racing. Racing is an art all it's own, and less useful to a cruiser than one might think. Fast is rarely, if ever, comfortable, on a boat.


I don't think I'll ever race. If I were to, I'd be the weakest link and be a burden than help. I really would like to become a good solo sailor.


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## Interlude

Layla said:


> This was very helpful. The photo must be your Cal20 and your other half. I'll check out the links and might ask a few questions in the future; thank you.


Yup it is my better half but not a Cal20. You are looking at a Compac 16 mk2. Small enough that you can step the mast by yourself, easy to trailer and launch, 18 inch shoal draft keel means you can simply run her up to the beach and step off, if over powered will simply slip sideways, no moving parts below the water line, a 7 foot cockpit, two 8 foot berths below deck, low aspect ratio sail plan so easy to set up a boom tent and sleep in the cockpit if wished, heavy enough to be stable (for her size) yet light enough you can learn how to affect sailing performance by where you sit (just like a dinghy) but a proper keel boat in how she sails, plus she looks good (the boat too!)

Truly we would sell our Pacific Seacraft (designed to cruise the world) someday before we ever part with our Compac16. Too simple, too inexpensive, to easy to rig, trailer, store, sail, and if ever wished sell. There were over 3,000 made and are always some for sale. The Mk 2 version is a definite hold out for if ever looking for one. It addressed the weather helm issue that the Mk 1's had, though a little weather helm is a good thing safety wise.

Layla, I hear you when you talk about what you wish and I have already indicated that your path is yours alone to choose just as our path was for us. Since however you are reaching out on this forum for advice and it appears that not only are you wishing a boat but also learning how to sail, a boat like the Compac 16 will teach you sailing (you can sail a large boat poorly and not even realize it), not break the bank ( all boats cost more than you can possibly imagine) and, allow you to get your hard earned boat bucks back out of her if you decide that sailing is not for you or are ready for that larger boat. (the Compac 16's hold their price well) Also do not underestimate the power of being able to go to weather at 60 mph as you trailer to a new cruising ground. When we first started sailing we would try out a new area every year and find a place to leave her fully rigged ready to back into the water and go. A very inexpensive way to keep a boat whether actively sailing or stored at home either in your garage or under a tarp. It was this method of 'cruising' that led us to discover where we call home port now.

It is easy to want it all right away, but with this thing called sailing, learning how to trick the wind into moving your boat is more important than the number of heads aboard, how many she will sleep, fancy electronics, or frankly anything else. You will know when it become important for those 'other' things. We absolutely love our Pacific Seacraft, and even if we could have afforded one when we first started sailing, it was the wrong boat for a novice sailor. Trust me on this, other than learning how to park a larger vessel, it is easier to sail one. That actually is the problem if you're just starting, as you need a boat that will give you feedback on how you sail her.

Hope you take this with the well intentioned manner in which it was given. Oh...a final pic of our 1987, Compac 16 mk2. She cost us less than recovering the bimini and dodger on our larger boat! Fair winds to ya Layla.


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## Layla

.....


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## Interlude

Layla said:


> Aw, a Compac 16! Of course!
> I have to say Compacs surely look larger than their actual size. I was more heeling to a Compac 23, but now, I see that the 16 should be on my short list too. I wonder if they point well. Were you guys able to fit a portapotty in it?


Hey Layla,
Well perfect timing on this question! Just opened up the ole lap top for some work and saw your reply.

We also have owned a Compac 23d (diesel) as well for a brief period. Great boat but for that time in our lives it was both too large (can't rig it by yourself, difficult to launch and recover and trailer) and also too small (no standing headroom, no enclosed head, and we were ready for more creature comforts and ability to stay aboard for weeks if wished). When something is both too small and too large then you need two things to fix it. Thus why we got another 16 for the reasons I have already given (got a Mk2 this time) and the boat of our dreams the Pacific Seacraft. Both are perfect for us, but then again we aren't just starting to sail. Also as mentioned if we ever sell one it will be the Pacific Seacraft and keep the 16 also for the previous reasons given.

We learned to sail, decades ago with another 16. We were young and I also did/do a bunch of single handed sailing so it was perfect for us as broke but young teachers! We still love sailing our 16 and the Pacific Seacraft for different reasons.

...now as far as the porta potty goes...yes there is a great spot out of the way in the cuddy cabin for one but frankly since it is so easy to get to shore we usually would, just like hiking, dig a slit trench for such. Pee always went overboard, and still does. We still have the porta potty in storage that came with the boat but has never been used, Current head arrangement:

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/fortiflex-flat-back-bucket-2-gal-capacity More sizes available.

Sturdy, flat back for stability, rolled top for comfort, wife approved certification! Plus good for laundry, dishes, boat washing, oyster collecting, general storage, yada yada. Remember pee only, pee is actually sterile. Try all that with a porta potty1

Don't know where you live but if anywhere near us you are welcome to see our 16 up close and personal. Meanwhile there are many out there. If you go back to my original reply to you, there are two links that will help a bunch especially the articles on the 16 from the North Carolina site. He will forget more about sailing small craft than I will ever learn. OBTW my user name on the CPYOA site is "Mas" the name of our 16. Huge amount of support there for all things Compac. Very active group.

....our 23d, great boat it was just the wrong boat for us but maybe for you as a next step after learning to sail as long as you understand the challenges with a 23ft. boat. Compac does it about as well as anyone and are sill in production. Then again you may end up with two boats someday like us! Keep your dream alive by taking manageable steps but keep taking those steps.


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## Jeff_H

I would second what was said above, I have always liked the Compacs and been pleasantly surprised by how well they sail given the 'numbers' and simplicity of the rig and keel design. Unless you are on a small lake, I thought that the 19 seemed like the Goldilocks size as compared to the 16 and the 23. The good and the bad news is that Compacs do seem to demand a premium price. 

Jeff


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## Lanealoha

🎣


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## Layla

Interlude said:


> ...We also have owned a Compac 23d (diesel) as well for a brief period. Great boat but for that time in our lives it was both too large (can't rig it by yourself, difficult to launch and recover and trailer) and also too small (no standing headroom, no enclosed head, and we were ready for more creature comforts and ability to stay aboard for weeks if wished). When something is both too small and too large then you need two things to fix it. Thus why we got another 16 for the reasons I have already given (got a Mk2 this time) and the boat of our dreams the Pacific Seacraft. Both are perfect for us, but then again we aren't just starting to sail. Also as mentioned if we ever sell one it will be the Pacific Seacraft and keep the 16 also for the previous reasons given...


Thank you for sharing this - fun to read. You guys really enjoyed the learning phase.
I've been all over the Compac website since reading your posts. As I want to skip the dinghy phase, maybe 16 ft could be even a better choice for the purpose. You'll eventually have big impact on my sailing endevours.


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## Layla

Jeff_H said:


> I would second what was said above, I have always liked the Compacs and been pleasantly surprised by how well they sail given the 'numbers' and simplicity of the rig and keel design. Unless you are on a small lake, I thought that the 19 seemed like the Goldilocks size as compared to the 16 and the 23. The good and the bad news is that Compacs do seem to demand a premium price...


Do they point well? I also wonder if a Compac 16 would make a good sailboat to learn in on the ocean...
Compac Legacy seems to be priced reasonably even brand new.


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## Jeff_H

Compared to a more modern and efficient design, they do not point all that well. But the ability to point well has minimal bearing on whether the Compac is a decent platform to learn to sail on or whether it is fun to sail. That said, the last Compac 16 that I sailed, we did take her out into the Atlantic out of the Wilmington River in Savannah. The Compac did not have an easy time once we hit the ocean. I don't think that we were in danger, but as is typical of any 16 footer, wave size made the sailing tough and once the wind picked up, it made for a tough trip home.

I normally recommend that any new sailor buy a boat that is responsive enough to provide input into what they are doing wrong or right and which has enough complexity that as a new sailor builds skills and grows in capability, they can experiment with the 'tools' that allow them to trim the sails a little more precisely. Proper sail trim should be as important to a cruiser as a racer since it helps reduce heel, weather helm, and passage times. 

Jeff


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## Interlude

Layla said:


> Do they point well? I also wonder if a Compac 16 would make a good sailboat to learn in on the ocean...
> Compac Legacy seems to be priced reasonably even brand new.


Do they point well?....inna nut shell, no. Then again they don't have to as between their ability to go to weather at 60 mph and cover tons of ground to get somewhere and their shoal draft thus being able to sail lines that deeper draft boats cannot it has never been a concern. If you go aground jump out and push it off.

As far as the ocean question goes, and please don't take this the wrong way, but you are not ready to take any boat into the ocean yet. I have been in 20 knot and gusting higher winds with the 16's rail in the water and both white caps and knuckles but only because I was very used to her performance and was returning from an overnight and misjudged the weather timing. Our Pacific Seacraft will set up and sail with no reef in such conditions but she is a vastly different boat designed for crossing oceans.

The Legacy is a bit of a conundrum as they are reasonalby priced while the 16's regular sell for more than they did new.

Jeff's comment about the 19 is well taken and I have some experience on a friend's 19. They are from a different architect while the 23 and 16 share the same hull (compound curves everywhere!) and thus have sailing characteristics that are a bit different from the 19. The 19 sails more upright with better initial stability but less secondary. They also pound a bit more in the chop of the bay where we sail regularly but are nice boats as well with more room below.

Yup, we had and still have much fun as we never bit off more than we could chew, financially, learning wise, weather wise and relationship wise. The CPYOA folks are lots of fun and the art of small craft sailing is it's own reward with you in close proximity to the elements.

BTW...where are you anticipating sailing? Jeff's comment about a lake bears pondering? The location does influence boat choice to an extent.


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## Layla

Jeff_H said:


> Compared to a more modern and efficient design, they do not point all that well...


Seems like Compac 16 is better for lakes and such...


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## SanderO

*Kimberly Kern DeGrechie
Sailboat Swap Shop*

here's the particulars..
1979 Lancer 36 FR (fractional rig).. Bill Lee hull design, Bruce Farr rig, 27-hp. Yanmar 3GM, runs great, furling jibs (#1 J/105 genoa fits perfect, #3 J/105 blade jib, J/109 main- short on hoist but beautiful shape; cruising dacron jib, spinnaker, pole, all gear, lots of new running rigging.
12v/110v reefer, 110v/engine driven water heat/exchanger, propane stove and oven, etc...
Some cosmetic damage from hurricane reflected in lower price.
Fast when not in "condo" mode. Multi race winner!
We lived aboard prior to partners illness. Located in Wilmington, Nc

Asking $7,900


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## Layla

Interlude said:


> Do they point well?....inna nut shell, no....
> ...As far as the ocean question goes, and please don't take this the wrong way, but you are not ready to take any boat into the ocean yet. I have been in 20 knot and gusting higher winds with the 16's rail in the water and both white caps and knuckles but only because I was very used to her performance and was returning from an overnight and misjudged the weather timing...
> BTW...where are you anticipating sailing? Jeff's comment about a lake bears pondering? The location does influence boat choice to an extent.


Compacs are awesome, but still, a bulb keel Cal20 or a fin keel Catalina 22 would be the top ones on my short list.
Thank you for your long, helpful posts; you've helped me a lot. I really learned from how you guys got into sailing and improved your skills.


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## Jeff_H

SanderO said:


> *Kimberly Kern DeGrechie
> Sailboat Swap Shop*
> 
> here's the particulars..
> 1979 Lancer 36 FR (fractional rig).. Bill Lee hull design, Bruce Farr rig, 27-hp. Yanmar 3GM, runs great, furling jibs (#1 J/105 genoa fits perfect, #3 J/105 blade jib, J/109 main- short on hoist but beautiful shape; cruising dacron jib, spinnaker, pole, all gear, lots of new running rigging.
> 12v/110v reefer, 110v/engine driven water heat/exchanger, propane stove and oven, etc...
> Some cosmetic damage from hurricane reflected in lower price.
> Fast when not in "condo" mode. Multi race winner!
> We lived aboard prior to partners illness. Located in Wilmington, Nc
> 
> Asking $7,900


LOL I think that you are in the wrong thread.


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## SanderO

Jeff_H said:


> LOL I think that you are in the wrong thread.


probably... can you move this to the right thread???


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## Layla

Lanealoha said:


> 🎣


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## Layla

.......


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## Layla

.....


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## MoonBeamEstate

Layla said:


> Isn't it funny that I am worried about pointing capabilities after making a deal about old long keel designs?!
> Well, you, now, have a general idea about what kind of boat I look for and where I'll possibly learn / teach myself sailing, so what sailboat do you suggest? Or what other recommendation might you have? I hope this was not a bad question.


Older full keel boat, they are gentle on those of us that have seen a few years. Don't listen to those folks trying to drag you into the 21 century.


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## JimInPB

I'm in South Florida. Since I recently bought a bigger boat, my Hunter 26.5 will be going up for sale soon. I just need to clean/polish it & get my personal gear moved over to the new boat.

The Hunter has a shallow draft wing keel (3.5'), tiller steering, a porta head, a small galley with running water & an alcohol stove. It has a full set of cushions & sleeps up to 5 adults, It has a fairly new jib. The main is still pretty good. It has an auto-pilot. At 4500 pounds, it's still small enough to put on a trailer & tow with a pick up truck. Standing & running rigs are good. The interior is nice. Overall condition is very good. 3 different kinds of anchors are included.



https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/hunter-265



There is a sailing club in this area that offers instruction on Sonars & J-22's. Custom instruction on your own boat is also available.

If this sounds like what you are looking for, please drop me a note.

Jim


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## Layla

MoonBeamEstate said:


> Older full keel boat, they are gentle on those of us that have seen a few years. Don't listen to those folks trying to drag you into the 21 century.


This comment made my day! 
🍻
I think I should own an old full keel sailboat sometime in the future and see it myself.


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## Interlude

Layla said:


> Seems like Compac 16 is better for lakes and such...


The Compac 16 is a good sailing boat that has checked a ton of boxes for us. We have sailed one for parts of two decades over rivers, lakes, bays, estuaries, and sounds. If my life depended on it, I would cross an ocean. Though it would have to be a life or death situation! Remember...this was our path not necessarily yours...but it is useful to watch where people who are doing what you wish to do have gone. We are content with our path and don't claim to hold any special keys! Well maybe one,... All people die, but few have lived, don't stop dreaming!

Letusno how to help. 😊


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## Layla

JimInPB said:


> I'm in South Florida. Since I recently bought a bigger boat, my Hunter 26.5 will be going up for sale soon. I just need to clean/polish it & get my personal gear moved over to the new boat.
> 
> The Hunter has a shallow draft wing keel (3.5'), tiller steering, a porta head, a small galley with running water & an alcohol stove. It has a full set of cushions & sleeps up to 5 adults, It has a fairly new jib. The main is still pretty good. It has an auto-pilot. At 4500 pounds, it's still small enough to put on a trailer & tow with a pick up truck. Standing & running rigs are good. The interior is nice. Overall condition is very good. 3 different kinds of anchors are included.
> 
> 
> 
> https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/hunter-265
> 
> 
> 
> There is a sailing club in this area that offers instruction on Sonars & J-22's. Custom instruction on your own boat is also available


I think it's an ideal day sailor for the coastal ocean sailing. Starting to think a sailboat about this size should be somehow my first serious boat on the coastal ocean. I'll figure out a way to get there...
Seems like I won't be buying anything this summer. TY.


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## Layla

Interlude said:


> The Compac 16 is a good sailing boat that has checked a ton of boxes for us. We have sailed one for parts of two decades over rivers, lakes, bays, estuaries, and sounds. If my life depended on it, I would cross an ocean. Though it would have to be a life or death situation! Remember...this was our path not necessarily yours...but it is useful to watch where people who are doing what you wish to do have gone. We are content with our path and don't claim to hold any special keys! Well maybe one,... All people die, but few have lived, don't stop dreaming!
> 
> Letusno how to help. 😊


🍻


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## Layla

This is a great community!


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## PhilCarlson

Layla said:


> My worry is also buying the wrong boat, but I'll be buying something that I can sell it for the same price. We'll see...
> A self thought solo sailor is who I would like to become as well. Your post gave me hope.


Welcome Layla.

I'm 7 years down the road from where you are starting. I read Sailing for Dummies, took an informal day course, bought a keelboat and went at it. Was sailing three years before my first ASA course.

As always there is tons of good advice above. It could even be overwhelming. My one addition to all of it is this: My observation based on your interactions on this thread is that you are an intelligent and curious person, and as such you learn about the things that interest you. All of the things you need to know about sailing is just stuff. You can learn stuff (you're probably pretty good at it). Just follow your curiosity and set some specific goals. You'll do just fine.


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## Layla

PhilCarlson said:


> Welcome Layla.
> 
> I'm 7 years down the road from where you are starting. I read Sailing for Dummies, took an informal day course, bought a keelboat and went at it. Was sailing three years before my first ASA course.
> 
> As always there is tons of good advice above. It could even be overwhelming. My one addition to all of it is this: My observation based on your interactions on this thread is that you are an intelligent and curious person, and as such you learn about the things that interest you. All of the things you need to know about sailing is just stuff. You can learn stuff (you're probably pretty good at it). Just follow your curiosity and set some specific goals. You'll do just fine.


Hey there.  You had a brave start, impressive. I might take a similar path. Thank you for your kind words.


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## SanderO

PhilCarlson said:


> Welcome Layla.
> 
> I'm 7 years down the road from where you are starting. I read Sailing for Dummies, took an informal day course, bought a keelboat and went at it. Was sailing three years before my first ASA course.
> 
> As always there is tons of good advice above. It could even be overwhelming. My one addition to all of it is this: My observation based on your interactions on this thread is that you are an intelligent and curious person, and as such you learn about the things that interest you. All of the things you need to know about sailing is just stuff. You can learn stuff (you're probably pretty good at it). Just follow your curiosity and set some specific goals. You'll do just fine.


Phil is, of course, correct.

You will need to get up to speed on a range of topics... and you should do this BEFORE buying a boat. Your research will inform your purchase decision as much as your budget, your location and your "skills" including sailing, navigation/piloting and all things mechanical.
You can proceed on several tracks at the same time.
learn to sail - take a course with classroom and on water instruction... then try to get on boats to "practice" what you have learned. Sailing needs to be as second nature as driving a car
The more you know.... the more there is to know... and more knowledge becomes available to you. You really can't leap frog ahead as you build a knowledge base about anything... and this includes sailing.
As you lift yourself up... knowledge-wise... experience-wise...you will discover boats which make sense for you to buy... and be more capable of making an informed buying choice.
Where you end up... ie what boat you get "in the end" may mean changing to a larger boat... and this is a common path... If you are intending to live aboard or sail offshore and cruise... your boat needs to fit you like glove. And both you and the boat will change into a better fit... with you guiding the way.
Don't start with preconceived notions.... about the boat... There may be several boats which make sense.... but that will be come clear as you ramp up knowledge and experience.


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## PhilCarlson

Layla said:


> Hey there.  You had a brave start, impressive. I might take a similar path. Thank you for your kind words.


Fools who survive are sometimes called brave.  If I could coach my younger, less coachable self, I would encourage a more deliberate approach.


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## Layla

PhilCarlson said:


> Fools who survive are sometimes called brave.


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## Layla

SanderO said:


> You will need to get up to speed on a range of topics... and you should do this BEFORE buying a boat...


Another wise post. I'll keep your words in mind. Thank you.


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## Layla

SanderO said:


> If you don't love that book.... I will buy it from you and give it to Sal ;-)


An insider joke???


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## JoCoSailor

Layla said:


> Hi,
> I've been looking for a beginner keel sailboat for a while. I have no sailing experience and want to start with a ~20 ft boat after hopefully a short class. Well, don't know what else to say for now.
> Nice to be here.


Layla, I see you are in Missouri. Are you planning on sailing a lake near you? if so which one?


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## Layla

......


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## SanderO

Layla said:


> An insider joke???


half a joke... Sal is a great sailor... but if you don't love the book I will buy it from you!


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## Ina

Layla said:


> Your post had many heads up points that I'll keep in mind. Thanks. After having a clearer opinion about how to become a good sailor, I might bother you with novice questions - especially before committing to a boat. You are so kind.


Thanks. I'll be happy to help.


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## Ina

Hi, you'll perhaps want to read this book, it explains simply the basics on boats, especially boats for offshore cruising.



http://www.mahina.com/book.pdf



Although quite short, and not so descriptive, *that could be a free and interesting book to start with*.

_It may lack some subtility, and may look a little incomplete, but again, it's a very basic work, intended for offering a general impression._

It gives you *an idea* of costs of replacing/repairing some parts, even though sometimes it may vary widely (I'm thinking about changing a boat's engine, for example), depending on the amount of space that the design allowed for the engine (if it's pretty small and you'd like to change it for a larger and more powerful engine, it could speed up your costs, while sometimes it'll be cheaper because the builder left some space and allowed an easy access to the engine - and obviously, for sure, if you buy a 25 hp, it won't be the same as a 35 hp or 40 hp from the same year)...

It also gives you an idea of good boats for going offshore, though I disagree with a couple of these, *especially the ones that are sub-28'*, as you'll perhaps be able to make it, but it'll be pretty difficult,* pretty much without an ideal amount of fuel, water, and some features to ensure you're safe... and of course, are confortable*. *Some choices are also pretty expensive, especially if you consider them to be 40-60 years old, having perhaps a need for a couple of repairs...* I'm thinking of the Justine 36, build by Morris Yacht, the Seguin 44, and a couple of others there: decent if refitted and cared for, but truly expensive choices: 100K + for the purchase, and you're not necessarily getting the most recent equipement... Also, any of the 50' + is truly going to cost a chunk of money to buy, but more likely, another chunk to dock, and care for, one that you may not want to pay in the end.

Some are choices that I have a hard time seeing really offshore without any rebuild/refurbishing - like that Yamaha 33... Maybe for some, not for me.

And it also lacks a couple of boats, especially ones not made in USA, but in Europe.

*Anyway, it's just a summary for learning a couple of very basic things.*


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## Layla

Ina said:


> Hi, you'll perhaps want to read this book, it explains simply the basics on boats, especially boats for offshore cruising...


This was very nice of you. Thank you. I've already started to read the book; there goes my evening.


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## Annapolitan

A somewhat belated welcome from another new member. Good luck in your search for the right vessel given all the info, advice and commentary you've been given. I'm in the middle of my own search which can be frustrating at times.

Cheers

Annapolitan


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## Layla

Annapolitan said:


> A somewhat belated welcome from another new member. Good luck in your search for the right vessel given all the info, advice and commentary you've been given. I'm in the middle of my own search which can be frustrating at times.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Annapolitan


🍻


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## Layla

Annapolitan said:


> A somewhat belated welcome from another new member. Good luck in your search for the right vessel given all the info, advice and commentary you've been given. I'm in the middle of my own search which can be frustrating at times.


Please, keep us informed with your progress. I'm very interested in how a new sailor start his journey nowadays. Well, perhaps not a very new sailor in your case as you've crewed on others' sailboats; you must already have an adequate amount of knowledge and experience.


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## midwesterner

Layla said:


> I'm currently in MO, and I'll soon be moving to the East Coast. If I had a lake nearby, I'd be on a Laser now instead of hanging out at forum sites, trust me.  There are lakes around a few hours drive away but... Let's leave it there; Missouri is a strange place!?


Layla, I don't know why you would say such a thing. We have lots of boaters in Missouri and many marine do-it-yourselfers.
(and if anyone questions the veracity of my photo, that's a Missouri license plate on that boat trailer)







.


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## Layla

midwesterner said:


> Layla, I don't know why you would say such a thing. We have lots of boaters in Missouri and many marine do-it-yourselfers.
> (and if anyone questions the veracity of my photo, that's a Missouri license plate on that boat trailer)


I'm hoping it was some sort of utility boat. You've gotta respect the creativity though.


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## Skipper Jer

Для просмотра нужно войти или зарегистрироваться


Смотрите публикации, фото и другие материалы на Facebook.




www.facebook.com




no connection, just thought op might be interested.


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## Layla

Everyone, thank you again.
🍻


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## HadziJo

Layla said:


> Your keel boat comment gives me hope; I really hope to become a goos sailor in a ~20ft something keel sailboat.
> I don't know if I'm part of the sailing world yet, but thank you for the kind welcome.


20 something foot is a nice size. but there are sooooo many options that you may want to attend a bunch of sailboat shows just to see what is out there. Unless you have the money to buy a boat, then sell it if it isn't what you like then repeat until you get the one that fits you best - sort of like dating.

It will be better once you sail one or two before you look because you'll know if you like the traveler behind the helm or at midship, or if you prefer a steel toe rail rather than just a fiberglass bump along the edge. Personally, I and my shins hate the traveler at midship and not all that crazy about having it aft of the helm. I do find having it above the companionway is nice because it allows the tachticition to stand forward out of the way and handle trimming the main while having a great view of other racers. But you may prefer the midship traveler if your boat uses a tiller making it easier to sail solo. An aft traveler is nice for a solo sailor on a boat with a wheel. 
The Bay Bridge (near Annapolis) sailboat show is coming in mid-April. check your local listing for one near you.

GO! Sit in all the boats and imagine you're sailing in your local waters. Can you easily see instruments (wind, depth, compass heading, etc.) and everything around you (aids to navigation, other boats, crab traps, etc.)? Can you access all the usual controls (e.g. main sheet, jib sheets, winch, traveler, etc.)?


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## Layla

HadziJo said:


> ...Unless you have the money to buy a boat, then sell it if it isn't what you like then repeat until you get the one that fits you best - sort of like dating....


Dating is like that?


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## Ina

Layla said:


> Dating is like that?


Mmmh... except you don't need to find someone *to* *buy in* what you dislike, you can dismiss the unlucky fool *very* easily & promptly.

And of course, *the boat comes at your expenses, and a suiting mate shouldn't come at anyone expenses*... (I hope so!) 

That said, Layla, I thought I'd like to add a little on the explanations given by the document I suggested...






POINTS OF SAIL AND SAILING TERMS


Headsails can be attached to the stay by a grooved foil A or clipped on with hanks B... The mainsail can be made smaller reefed when the windspeed increases But the headsails below are changed to match...




helpiks.org





_This one is a little more explanatory as to how to term sails and parts in a boat._






Glossary - Sailing Terms - SchoonerMan


Abeam - At right angles to the centerline of the hulls. Aft - In or near the stern. To the back or behind the boat. Apparent Wind - To those aboard a boat in




www.boatbuilding.xyz





_This ones is a glossary. It also gives you some terms, this time about how to manoeuver the boat.

Don't worry if you don't happen to recall *everything*, it's normal and it will likely take some time to get accustomed to all those words you don't really use in the rest of your life.

If I ever find other simple & concrete data I'll add it._


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## Layla

Ina said:


> Mmmh... except you don't need to find someone *to* *buy in* what you dislike, you can dismiss the unlucky fool *very* easily & promptly....And of course, *the boat comes at your expenses, and a suiting mate shouldn't come at anyone expenses*... (I hope so!)....


So dismissing the unlucky fool promptly shall be very easy?


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## p1l0t

I was saving for a ~35ft while volunteering to crew for a friend at a local yacht club so I could learn the ropes... err lines or halyards or whatever.. When another member heard I was saving for a boat he told me about his little 15ft WWP... I laughed out loud when I first saw the email but after thinking about it I thought hey I can get into the water this year (also happened to be first summer of COVID so I needed a social distance machine), and why not see what is like to own and maintain a boat on a smaller scale before going full tilt on my retirement vessel... and you know what I love this stupid little boat. It's an adventure in a bottle and it's amazingly affordable (for a boat anyway). 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## midwesterner

p1l0t said:


> ..... told me about his little 15ft WWP... I laughed out loud when I first saw the email but..... and you know what I love this stupid little boat. It's an adventure in a bottle and it's amazingly affordable (for a boat anyway).


Yes, it is a venerable sailboat. And it will teach you everything you need to know to move up to just about anything else.


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## Layla

.......


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## Minnewaska

Layla said:


> I've decided to postpone my first sailboat purchase to the summer of 22


Pure blasphemy. 



Layla said:


> I'll be able to rent Sunfish sailboats


Great way to learn the basics of sailing. You'll max out the capability of the single sail sunfish in a weekend. You'll also get wet! They are a ton of fun, but a sloop rigged keel boat is a very different animal. Much better in my view. I mention this, so you don't think getting knocked down and soaking wet has to always be a thing.  If your lake is cold water, you'll want a wet suit too.


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## JoCoSailor

Minnewaska said:


> They are a ton of fun, but a sloop rigged keel boat is a very different animal. Much better in my view. I mention this, so you





Layla said:


> Lately, I've read many 'wanna become a sailor' threads, and I find it quite disappointing when I don't know what eventually happens to the original posters. I always find myself wondering what they ended up doing sailing-wise. Did they buy a new boat? Did they like it? Hated it? Anything.
> 
> Usually, the 'new sailors' disappear after they get their answers. I'd hate to do that myself, so below is what I've decided to do with my sailing plans. I posted a similar paragraph in another thread earlier, sorry if this is a 'second edition' to some.
> 
> I've decided to postpone my first sailboat purchase to the summer of 22 - sometime after the Pandemic and its uncertainties. The good news is I've found out that I'll be able to rent Sunfish sailboats at a lake only a few hours away, and I'm planning to do that as many weekends as possible this summer. If everything goes as projected, my first ~20ft keel sailboat plan will happen on a close by lake in the summer of the year 2022. Long term plans include moving by the ocean hopefully and owning a bigger daysailor for the decades to come...
> 
> I enjoyed reading your posts and learned a lot.
> Thanks again.


I think that is sound plan. I know you are MO and if have not already, check out OYC. They have races on Saturdays (https://www.ozarkyachtclub.com/sailing/ozark-sailing-club) and always welcome crew of all skill levels. I think most of folks in this video are still there.


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## SanderO

@Layla... I don't think postponing your first purchase is a bad idea. And I don't think sailing on club or rental boats in '21 is a bad idea. I do think a learn to sail course on a boat like a Soling is a great idea.

















The *Soling* is an open keelboat that holds the World Sailing "International class" status.[5] The class was used from the 1972 Olympics (Kiel) until the 2000 Olympics (Sydney) as "Open Three Person Keelboat". Besides the Olympic career of the Soling the boat is used for International and local regattas as well as for recreational sailing. The Soling is managed by the International Soling Association under auspician of World Sailing/ISAF/IYRU since 1968.


Droop-hiking technique demonstrated by middleman.


"Soling in the Boston Harbor Island Race 2012​The Soling is a strong boat designed for any wind and sea condition by Jan Herman Linge from Norway in 1964.[6] The boats are one-design originating from an authorized single plug and mould system and made of fiberglas. This together with a strict set of class rules makes competition possible on a "level playing field".[1] Solings last a long time, and boats produced in the early days are still in competition today (more than 50 years after being built)."​
This was the boat that I leaned on at Steve Colgate's Offshore School of Sailing in City Island. It was a 5 day course with 5 mornings in classroom and 5 afternoons of sailing. You learn and DO everything from knots to navigation... And when you complete the course you get access to their fleet of Solings when they are not being used for classes.

Soling would be a great first boat... and a real keel boat. Don't waste ant entire season playing on a Sunfish.


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## Layla

Minnewaska said:


> Pure blasphemy.


🍺, 🍷, 🥃, 🍸, 🍹, 🍻


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## Layla

......


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## Minnewaska

Layla said:


> I'm more worried about the bacterias in the lake water than the temperature.


Is it polluted?


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## Layla

.....


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## Layla

.....


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## p1l0t

I heard that whale  poo is pretty narly..










Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Layla

p1l0t said:


> .....whale  poo.....


🏊‍♀️

🙃


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## Minnewaska

Layla said:


> I don't think so. People do watersports there. Still, lakes are not like seas. They look more infested to me.


Can't speak for your location, but water quality is tested here. No need to use one's imagination, which may not be reliable. Murky water does not necessarily mean contaminated water.


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## Layla

.............


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## Layla

Minnewaska said:


> Can't speak for your location, but water quality is tested here. No need to use one's imagination, which may not be reliable. Murky water does not necessarily mean contaminated water.


good to know.


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## Layla

.....


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## Jeff_H

SanderO said:


> @Layla... I don't think postponing your first purchase is a bad idea. And I don't think sailing on club or rental boats in '21 is a bad idea. I do think a learn to sail course on a boat like a Soling is a great idea.
> 
> View attachment 138789
> View attachment 138790
> 
> 
> The *Soling* is an open keelboat that holds the World Sailing "International class" status.[5] The class was used from the 1972 Olympics (Kiel) until the 2000 Olympics (Sydney) as "Open Three Person Keelboat". Besides the Olympic career of the Soling the boat is used for International and local regattas as well as for recreational sailing. The Soling is managed by the International Soling Association under auspician of World Sailing/ISAF/IYRU since 1968.
> 
> 
> Droop-hiking technique demonstrated by middleman.
> 
> 
> "Soling in the Boston Harbor Island Race 2012​The Soling is a strong boat designed for any wind and sea condition by Jan Herman Linge from Norway in 1964.[6] The boats are one-design originating from an authorized single plug and mould system and made of fiberglas. This together with a strict set of class rules makes competition possible on a "level playing field".[1] Solings last a long time, and boats produced in the early days are still in competition today (more than 50 years after being built)."​
> This was the boat that I leaned on at Steve Colgate's Offshore School of Sailing in City Island. It was a 5 day course with 5 mornings in classroom and 5 afternoons of sailing. You learn and DO everything from knots to navigation... And when you complete the course you get access to their fleet of Solings when they are not being used for classes.
> 
> Soling would be a great first boat... and a real keel boat. Don't waste ant entire season playing on a Sunfish.


I don't think that a Soling would make a good first boat, especially for someone who plans to single-hand. Class legal Solings are powered up Olympic level race boats designed to be raced with a lot of crew weight, by skilled sailors capable of drop hiking. Solings are tender, and not self-rescuing (i.e., can be swamped), complex and not especially forgiving, and a little fragile. Like most dedicated race boats the control lines are decentralized so that the crew members can do their jobs and are not on top of one another.

Sailing a Soling single-hand would take a lot of skill when hit with the sudden, "where did that come from" gusts that are part of lake sailing.

My understanding is that Steve Colgate used detuned versions of the Soling for his school and that they were not successful as a beginner training platform to the extent that Steve Colgate took the unusual step of having a custom boat designed and built for his schools, which is where the Colgate 26 came from.

Jeff


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## SanderO

Jeff_H said:


> I don't think that a Soling would make a good first boat, especially for someone who plans to single-hand. Class legal Solings are powered up Olympic level race boats designed to be raced with a lot of crew weight, by skilled sailors capable of drop hiking. Solings are tender, and not self-rescuing (i.e., can be swamped), complex and not especially forgiving, and a little fragile. Like most dedicated race boats the control lines are decentralized so that the crew members can do their jobs and are not on top of one another.
> 
> Sailing a Soling single-hand would take a lot of skill when hit with the sudden, "where did that come from" gusts that are part of lake sailing.
> 
> My understanding is that Steve Colgate used detuned versions of the Soling for his school and that they were not successful as a beginner training platform to the extent that Steve Colgate took the unusual step of having a custom boat designed and built for his schools, which is where the Colgate 26 came from.
> 
> Jeff


I was unaware of this... thanks for that. My suggestion was for a keel boat with a small cabin for a porta potty... and tiller. I don't know the market out there for small boats... but a sunfish seems a waste of a season,


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## mstern

Gotta love the Sunfish; I wouldn't be surprised if most sailors (including yours truly) first learned to sail on a Sunfish. They're little hot rods. A Sunfish will sail faster than just about any trailerable 22 footer, albeit a much wetter ride. And you will tip. It's part of the fun. 

I do agree with Minne; sailing a Sunny is a different animal than a two sail keel boat. But my love of sailing started with the Sunny; I would be surprised if sailing a Sunny somehow dampens your enthusiasm for a bigger boat.


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## Layla

...........


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## Layla

.....


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## Layla

.........


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## Jeff_H

Layla said:


> I would've done my homework before purchasing any sailboat anyway. Some boats might look like a great match considering the specs, but I've learned to approach them on a case by case basis. There are no Solings on sale around here anyhow.
> I guessed Colgate 26 design was inspired by Soling's design. I knew it!
> Now, I'm very comfortable with how to pick my very first keel in '22 for lake use, but my second one is still blur...
> To be specific, let's say, I don't think so there are that many low maintenance daysailers in production for coastal ocean use. When I look for a basic 27 ft or longer daysailer without shower, galley, wood work and etc..., all I find are racers. Other than a few 30ft something luxury daysailers, nothing is on the market. Does not matter for me at this point, but I wonder the options; I must be missing them and looking at the wrong places...


I want to put my comments in perspective. When I respond to a specific comment, it generally is not directed either at the person who made the comment, the tread that it is in, or even at the person who initiated the thread. These threads are read by a lot of members who may not be actively posting. When I see a post that I believe raises a broader interest question, or does not present clear or accurate information, I will often post to put that comment in perspective. In other words my comments on the Soling or in this post for example, were neither directed specifically at you or SanderO, but at the broader audience who might read this discussion.

With regard to the Colgate 26 being inspired by the Soling, I would put it this way, the Colgate 26 was inspired by the Soling in the same way that having a car accident totalling a car might inspire you to buy a safer car and drive more safely.

From a yacht design standpoint, the Colgate 26 was a 30 year more modern design purposefully designed to be a platform for a sailing school vs. rather than the Soling designed as an Olympic level race boat. The difference in design principles result in quite different boats in terms of hull form, deck plan, stability, sail plan, and so on.

The guiding forces behind each are extremely different as is the design solutions. That makes sense in that the Soling was designed to be sailed by the most skilled racing sailors in the world, and so was a bleeding edge design in it's day, while the Colgate was designed to be sailed by people who are brand new to sailing, and so was designed to be a mix of responsiveness, while remaining forgiving and not scaring the daylights out of a new sailor.

As far as "low maintenance daysailers in production for coastal ocean use.", They almost do not exist. By and large the vast majority of pleasure sailboats that have been produced fall in the category of a performance coastal cruisers. Some are biased more towards racers, others more towards cruisers. Some are biased more towards being value-oriented, while others lean towards the build and design quality end of the scale.

Probably the rarest niche are boats that are purposefully designed to be 'daysailers', that are keel boats which are also low maintenance and ocean capable. A boat fitting that description would be as expensive to build as a similar sized coastal cruiser, but not offer the range of uses that a coastal cruiser would offer. Few people would opt for paying almost the same price for a boat that does so much less.

There have been times when companies have tried to thread the needle between a dedicated daysailer and a full blown coastal cruiser. Those boats were often referred to as 'overnighters'. That term has dropped out of popular use, as have building boats purposefully built for that use.

Some examples of overnighters might include the O'day Mariner, Grampian Classic 22, Rainbow Weekender, and the Pearson 26 weekender.

But most of these are less than ideal for offshore use because there was an assumption that there would be almost no market for an 'overnighter' that had the added expense of making a boat ocean capable.

There was a period from the mid-1970's until around 2000 when almost no weekenders were constructed. Around 2000 there was a slew of wildly expensive daysailers/weekenders that were built, but mostly those were not low maintenance nor necessarily ocean capable.

During that 25 years,(1975 to 2000) the closest thing to a weekender, would be MORC Rule race boats. The MORC Rule (Midget Ocean Racing Conference) generally promoted good all around boats that were seaworthy, had minimum accommodations (a small galley, a couple bunks, a head) and which are also offshore capable. While these were definitely intended as race boats, most were good daysailers, easy to handle, and low maintenance. Minor modifications make these decent single-handers. Some examples over the lifespan of the MORC Rule might include boats like the Sailmaster 22, Tartan 27, Tartan 26, Lindenberg 26, J-24, Capri 25, Laser 28 and so on.

Jeff


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## JoCoSailor

mstern said:


> Gotta love the Sunfish; I wouldn't be surprised if most sailors (including yours truly) first learned to sail on a Sunfish. They're little hot rods. A Sunfish will sail faster than just about any trailerable 22 footer, albeit a much wetter ride. And you will tip. It's part of the fun.
> 
> I do agree with Minne; sailing a Sunny is a different animal than a two sail keel boat. But my love of sailing started with the Sunny; I would be surprised if sailing a Sunny somehow dampens your enthusiasm for a bigger boat.


There is couple in our club in their 70'. They learned a long time that racing in same boat together was not good for their marriage. So, they've each got their own Sunfish. They still race every week (back in day he competed in Sunfish nationals did well, if not won some) . There's 2 or 3 other guys that had bigger, faster boats. Now that have gotten older they are sailing Fish. In our 30 to 40 minutes races I have to beat a fish by 3 to 4 minutes real time to win once the PS handicap is applied. Sunfish... I hate them....Not really We teach beginning sailing on Sunfish to 30 +/- folks every year...I love them then.

I could not agree more about them being the different animal than a two sail keel boat. Gets even worse on larger keel boat with a wheel, winches, electron display, and a Bimini top. When I go from my 2 sail Bucc to one of those. It takes me a couple hours to stop feeling like I'm in a video game.


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## SanderO

Jeff_H said:


> During that 25 years, the closest thing to a weekender, would be MORC Rule race boats.The MORC Rule (Midget Ocean Racing Conference) generally promoted good all around boats that were seaworthy, had minimum accommodations (small galley, a couple bunks, a head) and which are also offshore capable. While these were definitely intended as race boats, most were good daysailers, easy to handle, and low maintenance. Minor modifications make these decent single-handers. Some examples over the lifespan of the MORC Rule might include boats like the Sailmaster 22, Tartan 26, Lindenberg 26, J-24, Capri 25, Laser 28 and so on.
> 
> Jeff


Thanks Jeff this post is invaluable to someone like Layla and others starting out. For sure most people start small... costs less and is a lesser commitment...not to mention expense. Older boats almost always mean you need to immediately start maintenance, repair and refits. Care and maintenance is part of the deal. Some like that, others just want to sail and do as little maintenance as possible... sell the boat and get something larger and repeat. This is logical and sensible.

As I have written before... my entry was completely different and probably unique. As a non sailor I was asked by my best friend... a great sailor to be a financial partner in a 48' boat. I was to do some joinery modifications and share maintenance and Jack would teach me to sail. I had no idea if it was possible to learn on a 48' boat. The partnership never happened but I was inspired to explore sailing and with way way way too little knowledge bought Shiva... a Contest36s... a too big boat for a rank novice. I made Jack sail with me for 6 months solid whenever we could. Amazingly I became comfortable handling the boat... not docking... mooring and anchoring. And the journey began... 5 years of intensive immersive "sailing things", upgrading, fitting out and of course sailing. All the work made me familiar with all the systems and 6 years after purchase I sailed to the Caribbean. I also had to close down life on dirt. Perhaps I could have compressed the time by a few years. There is an enormous amount to learn and experience. And the learning and experience never ends.

Best mistake I have made


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## Jeff_H

I meant to comment on the Sunfish. I would have to guess that there was a period of time when a very large percentage of sailors learned to sail on Sunfish. While certainly wet and capable of being capsized, the Sunfish remains a good platform to learn basic sail trim and boat handling skills very quickly. A summer spent messing about on a Sunfish accompanied by some reading and batting around ideas with experienced sailors like the folks at the rental) can teach more about boat handling than years of sailing a less nimble bigger boat.

Jeff


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## Layla

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## midwesterner

JoCoSailor said:


> Gets even worse on larger keel boat with a wheel, wenches, electron display, and a Bimini top.


I don't think we're supposed to call them that anymore. ;-)


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## JoCoSailor

midwesterner said:


> I don't think we're supposed to call them that anymore. ;-)


I'd like to buy a vowel....can I have an i?


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## mstern

A word about the Colgate 26: If daysailing with friends and maybe doing some racing at some point is your sailing goal, then I think the Colgate 26 is one of the best options out there. The boat is a great sailing platform. Absolutely forgiving of the beginner, but also capable of a fine turn of speed. Fast and stable. There are a number of boats that meet those criteria, but what makes the Colgate different is the cockpit: it is out and out huge. You can easily fit 8 in there comfortably. The "cabin" has sitting headroom, but is tiny. It's really a place for the porta-potti and the electric panel. The design brief clearly emphasized cockpit space over cabin space; not surprising as they were trying to accommodate a number of students and keep them out of each others' way as opposed to trying to fit in as many creature comforts as possible. On the con side, the boats are not cheap.


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## Layla

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## Layla

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## Layla

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## Layla

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## Layla

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## SanderO

Layla said:


> Unless one lives onboard, anything more than a porta potti inside a sailboat is money down the drain - just my opinion.


Not really.... people "week end" and do short cruises which is somewhat like living aboard... and they want a fair amount (varying) of creature comforts. For example people sleep and eat and prepare / cook food.
Live aboard often means more stowage, more creature comforts
Offshore requires gear and safety equipment and storm sails


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## SanderO

@Layla.. you should begin to scout sailing locations.... places with lots of sailing destinations, decent weather and interesting things ashore. Pacific Northwest is a great location... as are the Chessie, Long Island Sound.. all the way to Maine. Sailing in these regions can be very ocean-like... but you are usually reasonably close to a safe harbor. Sailing weather should be a huge factor on where you move to... as well as work and access to interesting shoreside activities. NE coast is rich with things to do ashore. Newport RI is a great home port with fabulous sailing in a 100 mile radius... you can even sail to Block Island.... which is IN the ocean... but 10 ir 15 miles from the coast.

You'll get a lot of opinions on all / any place you are considering.


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## Layla

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## Minnewaska

You may not always be in the daysailing mode. Personally, I'd much rather go somewhere, stay the night and come back the next day. It feels more inclusive of the lifestyle than simply sailing. To each their own.


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## Layla

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## Layla

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## Minnewaska

I did not mean to suggest you were making the wrong choices, only that one's desires and visions change, as they experience certain activities. Keep your options open was perhaps the intent of my message.

As far as maintenance goes, bigger is not the issue, it's more stuff to maintain. Bigger usually has more stuff, so you're directionally correct in your thinking. It's not always the case and I don't think 23 to 27 would triple one's maintenance, if that was meant literally.


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## Layla

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## midwesterner

Layla said:


> I've decided not to buy a keel sailboat until I move to somewhere oceanside. Here is my concern, will they be okay sailboats for coastal sailing on ocean?


Any boat can go out on the ocean, it all depends on the weather. There are people who go out in the ocean in 16 foot fishing skiffs. But they watch the weather and don't go out on bad weather days, and head back quickly if the weather starts to change for the worse.

The keel boats you're talking about eventually buying, could certainly be sailed out in the open ocean. You would want to watch the weather closely, listen to the weather report for small craft advisories, and don't wander too far from port, and watch the sky.

I chartered a Catalina 22 for a long day of sailing down in the Florida Keys, on a day with some pretty stout winds. The boat did well, I felt safe the whole time, and we had a lot of fun.


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## Jeff_H

If you are considering a Capri 22, then you might want to put the J-22 on your list. The J-22 is conceptually similar to the Capri, way better built, used sails are a dime a dozen. The J-22 will sail way better, have better hardware, more stability and be easier to single-hand.

But none of the boats on your list(Colgate 26, Capri 22, Compac 23, or J-22) are what I would think of as boats I would want to single hand 'on the ocean'. They are fine in places like Long Island Sound, Narragansett Bay, Tampa Bay, Biscayne Bay, or the Chesapeake, where there are plenty of places to tuck in and ride out a blow. But they are not the kind of boats to be running inlets on.

It is one thing to sail a beach boat with nothing onboard but you and your lifejacket. You aren't going far enough to get into too much trouble. I even get the "keep-it-as simple-as-you-can" thing. (As a kid I cruised Long Island Sound for the better part of week in a 17 foot half-decked National One Design race boat, sleeping on the floor boards at night under a boom tent. Huck Finn didn't have it any better)









But It is another thing to sail a boat even as large as the 20-23 footers being considered with nothing on board especially if you are planning on going out in the ocean. You do not need to carry even be as much stuff as you carried canoe camping but you also should not be shunning advice to be reasonably prepared. The ongoing discussion is touching on the idea that part of sailing responsibly is visualizing what can go wrong long before it does, and instead of ignoring what might occur until you are in survival mode, or almost worse yet, being afraid of what might happen, you think ahead, and prepare a bit and then shrug it all off when that thing does occur.

In that vein, when I owned daysailers, I always carried a jug of water, some cans of beans and corn, and/or soup to make an impromptu dinner on what was essentially a one burner camp stove. I kept a mummy bag on board to sleep in and carried a small container of coffee, and expresso pot, canned milk and dry cereal so I could have something to eat in the morning. I did this because there are times when I went out sailing just for a few hours and did not made it back into the dock that day. It just just happens that way some times. Just having a few things on board turned what might have been a crummy night into a lovely way to enjoy a small daysailer, (in that case, a Grampian Classic 22 [below]- which by the way, the summer before last a friend bought one of those for $400.00 and the pain in the neck of removing it from the man's driveway.)










I think what folks are trying to suggest is that you seem to be coming to this with a range of firmly held preconceived notions about what you are going to do in sailing. The good news is that rather than being carved in stone your ideas do actually morph over time as you are learning more. But many of those ideas that you paint so definitively, are rendered as foggy outlines with only small elements showing concretely. And while there is no universally right way to enjoy sailing, those with a lot of experience in sailing, are trying to fill in the gaps between the shadowy aspirations and the solid realities that connect those small bits of clearly seen elements. There are a lot of very experienced people here, who are merely trying to provide the data points that help you navigate through this fog and are trying to provide a clearer picture of what you have yet to see for yourself.

On the flip side, in fairness, it is hard to advise another person that you don't know except through random internet posts. And harder still for any of us to meaningfully advise you since some your arguments seem at odds with each other. Take for example, that you shy from the maintenance and cost of a bigger boat (say 26 feet vs 22 feet) yet talk about buying a new Capri 22 or Compac, when there is nothing more expensive and/or time absorbing than buying and commissioning a new boat. Or as a self-labeled introvert, you shy away from sailing with others as a way to learn inexpensively and quickly, yet are comfortable discussing your plans with this virtual sailing club.

Those are my thoughts for today. Time to close shop and go home and make some dinner....

Jeff


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## Layla

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