# Autopilot - wheel pilot vs below deck



## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hello,

I will be installing an Autopilot on my new to me C&C 110. It seems like Raymarine is the only one who makes a wheel pilot these days. The price is $1400 or so and I can probably install it myself. But, will it work well enough or do I need a below deck pilot? The 110 weighs around 11,000lbs.

My O'day 35 came with an Autohelm 3000 that works fine. It steers great when under power, when the wind is moderate, and the sails are balanced. It does not steer well when the wind is over 20 kts, or downwind with waves. Still, I have used it for 7 years and I was happy with it.

So, will I be happy with the Raymarine Evolution Autopilot EV-100 Wheel Drive or should I spend over $3000 for the Raymarine Evolution Autopilot EV-200 Linear Pack? I doubt I could install that myself since I don't do fabrication well.


Thanks,
Barry


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## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

I installed a raymarine wheel pilot on a Pearson 33-2 last year. It is (obviously) a shorter boat, but very similar displacement (11,000lbs). I have been very pleased with the performance. I have certainly used it under sail in greater than 20knt winds with confused seas without problem. The gyroscope seems to handle the challenges of downwind with waves pretty well. I can't speak to the longevity (having had it only a single season) but it has met or exceeded my expectations so far. Below deck would certainly be quieter, but it isn't bad.


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## mitchbrown (Jan 21, 2009)

Barry

check out the CPT wheel pilot. It's a well built simple unit. uses a simple optical compass for direction and just works.

CPT Autopilot Inc.


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## Gladrags1 (Apr 9, 2003)

When selecting an autopilot, it's important to consider the boats fully loaded displacement which is often 20% over the number when empty. The Evolution series look very good and well thought out. I am concerned about the pilots ability to manage due to the displacement of your boat. I tried to quickly find a rating for displacement capabilities but wasn't able to locate one. 

I consider a pilot to be safety equipment. Consider this: you get caught in a squall but you cannot furl your jib as there is a jam up at the bow. You need the help of your partner so you engage the pilot and both go forward to manage the sail and get back under control. That pilot needs to be able to competently manage the boat in those conditions to keep you safe. 

Tod


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

> So, will I be happy with the Raymarine Evolution Autopilot EV-100 Wheel Drive or should I spend over $3000 for the Raymarine Evolution Autopilot EV-200 Linear Pack? I doubt I could install that myself since I don't do fabrication well.


I hear great things about the new evolution. I have the old linear drive, which gave up the ghost last fall at the worst possible time. I'm sending it in for a rebuild here shortly. I'm actually considering upgrading to the evo.

I think that if you have the room below that you should put it out of sight. Looking at mine i don't think it would be that hard to install.

The wheel pilot has a max load of 16,500 lbs. So you would be at the upper end of the capability of the unit once you are fully outfitted. I also think the linear drive is better protected from the weather down below.

In addition; if you plan on sailing in any heavy weather (20Kts and up) i don't think the wheel pilot will handle it in your boat. I could be wrong though.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I like the CPT ones! thanks for that

need to save up!


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

Besides being more robust, a below-decks autopilot has the capability of steering the boat should a steering cable break. My boat is too small (C&30) to justify the expense in this economy, but if I had a bigger boat I'd go with a below-decks unit.
Having previously had an exposed-belt wheelpilot (Navico) just going to a Raymarine S1 was a huge improvement.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

my boat came with a massive chain driven(to quadrant) below decks autopilot, it looks like the cpt except mounted below on a wood base, it has a gyroscope or compass sensor on the port side...too bad It doesnt work cause its perfectly installed...

I wonder what one would do to try and fix a non working older type of autopilot...? where to start?

Ill post some pics hopefully somebody will be able to identify it


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

To the best of my knowledge, drive units are just motors that run forward and reverse. Their instructions come from the controllers. Why not test your drive unit and if it's functional, just buy the computer and controllers? If the drive fails someday, you can replace that with a new drive and keep the computer/controllers.
The drive unit is the hardest part to install. If it works, I'd keep it.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yup its a blcak box with gear, moves forward and reverse...with a chain simple to fix that I think...its the control box that has been exposed to sun and basically looks like crap, not even a name on it...

the gyroscope has always been indoors so its in fine fine shape

guess I could start with the motor box first and see if the motor works if it does then Im game to look for a new control box

cause its mounted and all the fuss workd has been done...now the technical brain stuff has to be applied! jajaja

thanks

pd. IO crewed on a big steel boat that had a very big linear drive autohelm pilot it sucked JUICE like nothing else

partly because the owner being very conservative used an autopilot for twice the displacement of his boat...which is very smart to do...but it cost him at the time in spain around 8k...for an autopilot that was his BACKUP to the aries

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## magicmoments (Jan 15, 2009)

Christian
You could check out the new Garmin autohelm. They will power many old drive units according to the wiring instructions that came with mine. They just need a optional hook up cable
Good Luck


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

oooooooooooh interesting!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Wheel pilots are simple, by comparison, to install and repair. However, many below deck APs will connect to the rudder beyond the helm wheel linkage. This give you redundant steering, should your helm linkage break, without having to bring out the old emergency tiller.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I'm kind of going through this same exercise right now. My old Raymarine ST4000 is starting to give up the ghost. It was always undersized for my boat, but it worked fine for a lot of years.

I'd like to have one that hooked directly to the rudder post, but I also always like that I could see when the ST4000 was having problems, and could accordingly balance the sail plan.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I had an autohelm on my last boat, a wheel pilot, and x2 on stuff like belt tension, friction...constantly adjustig etc

having said that I think one like the cpt which is straight down and can be tensioned with a clip would work better as it would be standalone

one thing I hated about this last autohelm wheel pilot was the fact that you had to climb over the moving belt or simpy not use the stbd side cockpit sole and have it clear all the time

yes it was very easy to un clip but during use I didnt like it...

plus if you have flexy lazarette glass you add to the whole stretchy constantly adjusting nature of the thin belt

anywhoo

if I can save up the CPT is looking mighty fine at $1800


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

Group9 said:


> I'm kind of going through this same exercise right now. My old Raymarine ST4000 is starting to give up the ghost. It was always undersized for my boat, but it worked fine for a lot of years.
> 
> I'd like to have one that hooked directly to the rudder post, but I also always like that I could see when the ST4000 was having problems, and could accordingly balance the sail plan.


If you put a belowdeck unit on with a rudder position indicator, you can see whether your sailplan is balanced and adjust accordingly.


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## Bradhamlet (Nov 8, 2002)

We have similar boats (yes yours is way nicer) 11,000 dis. LOA about 36+ft. fin keel spaded rudder. I installed the Raymarine WP P-70/fluxgate compass and am very happy with it's performance. It was an upgrade from the Simrad which lasted almost 10 years. I mostly daysail/weekend and coastal cruise. With balanced sails I have had use in 25-30kts with 8-12 ft swells and it handled it well. Quiet and so far very reliable. It was about $1400. which was not cheep for me, however single handing without the AP was a real tiring even on daysails. I am glad to have it, and I think I bought it from this sight too. 

Brad 
Lancer 36


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

BarryL said:


> Hello,
> 
> I will be installing an Autopilot on my new to me C&C 110. It seems like Raymarine is the only one who makes a wheel pilot these days. The price is $1400 or so and I can probably install it myself. But, will it work well enough or do I need a below deck pilot? The 110 weighs around 11,000lbs.
> 
> ...


I'd guess you would be happy, just because of your past experience. We have over 10 years on an ST4000 with a 15,000 disp boat, and when it does give up, I'll get another WP.

We're coastal sailors and have found the WP up to what we need. There are times it won't work and maybe a below decks would, but it's not worth the cost or installation time for what we do.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

We had a Raymarine wheel pilot on our previous boat (34' steel sloop). We were right on the edge of the weight limit but at no time did we experience any problems. My only complaint is that wheel pilots and/or tiller pilots tend to be a bit noisy. the key to keeping them running happily is to keep the boat well balanced. If you have bucket loads of weather helm then your wheel pilot is bound to get a tad testy. 

Current boat has below decks and one could not complain at all. We did have a squeaky drive unit but that has been fixed and the thing is very quiet indeed. 

So .... by choice I'd go below deck but on a smaller boat and keeping in mind the unit costs and installation expense of below deck then I'd be content with WP.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

allright guys found out I have a cetec BENMAR AP...below deck

pics to come

they are made or sold in santa ana, ca

Ill start a new thread for those interested

its a lot bigger than I thought


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## gbennett (Nov 9, 2001)

Barry,

As other have said there are many advantages to a below deck autopilot vs. a wheel pilot but the final installation will be 2-3 times the price. Mounting the drive, rudder position sensor, tiller arm, resetting rudder stops, and wiring will take time, dollars, and energy. But in my case, worth the time, $'s and effort... You can see what was involved in installing a below deck unit on our Pearson 36 cutter at www.sailingseadragon.com[url] go to...I have made to Sea Dragon.
Good Luck,
Garner


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

BarryL said:


> Hello,
> 
> I will be installing an Autopilot on my new to me C&C 110. It seems like Raymarine is the only one who makes a wheel pilot these days. The price is $1400 or so and I can probably install it myself. But, will it work well enough or do I need a below deck pilot? The 110 weighs around 11,000lbs.
> 
> ...


Time for an update Barry!

Did you pull the trigger on the Raymarine EV-100, or go with something else?

I am looking to add an autopilot to my O'day 35, to help me make the trek to Florida this fall. Right now I don't care about integrating with any other devices, I just want a reliable unit. I know about the CPT a/p, but it seems that the Raymarine can be had for just about a boat buck, therefore cheaper than the CPT. I also like that it doesn't require that big box at the helm. Initially, I would plan to install it using the wheel connector for ease of installation. I like that this unit's controller could be used either with the wheel adpter, or a below deck drive unit.


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## adki110 (Feb 27, 2011)

I jumped through all kinds of hoops trying to get a CPT autopilot to work for about eighteen months. First it was there had to be some magnetic interference, then some of the hardware had to be improper, then it had to be my steering. I kept telling them that the autopilot was trying to correct but the speed of correction was too slow. I asked if they could speed up the drive motor or supply a different size pulley to change to drive ratio, no and no. The autopilot would work for a short time ( 5 min) then start to swing side to side over 50 to 60 degrees in flat conditions, in a any sea at all it was dangerous. Why eighteen months, I would sail somewhere and stay awhile and repeat.
Finally sent it back for testing I was told nothing was wrong, BUT THEY DID HAVE A DIFFERENT SIZE PULLEY , the case was all scuffed ( I wish I had taken pictures when I shipped it)and the wires were corroded (connections were inside with shrink sleeve connectors) . At that point I was so tired of it when they offered approximately half price refund I took it.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

My O'day 35 is listed at ~12K lbs, 12K lbs x 1.2 (to account for "stuff") is 14.4K lbs. The EV-100 is rated at 16.5K lbs, so that would work. All my other research tells me that the Raymarine EV-100 wheel unit is robust, easy to install, N2K compatable, and the wheel unit can swapped for a below deck unit. This seems to fit my needs.









Raymarine EV100 Wheel Pilot The GPS Store


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

adki110 said:


> I jumped through all kinds of hoops trying to get a CPT autopilot to work for about eighteen months. First it was there had to be some magnetic interference, then some of the hardware had to be improper, then it had to be my steering. I kept telling them that the autopilot was trying to correct but the speed of correction was too slow. I asked if they could speed up the drive motor or supply a different size pulley to change to drive ratio, no and no. The autopilot would work for a short time ( 5 min) then start to swing side to side over 50 to 60 degrees in flat conditions, in a any sea at all it was dangerous. Why eighteen months, I would sail somewhere and stay awhile and repeat.
> Finally sent it back for testing I was told nothing was wrong, BUT THEY DID HAVE A DIFFERENT SIZE PULLEY , the case was all scuffed ( I wish I had taken pictures when I shipped it)and the wires were corroded (connections were inside with shrink sleeve connectors) . At that point I was so tired of it when they offered approximately half price refund I took it.


Interesting. I read a LOT of boating forums, and this is the very first complaint I have EVER heard about CPT. I've met the owners and they're great guys. Too bad you had a bad experience.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

All was well UNTIL I noticed that in order to update the firmware to the latest revision, it seems that you MUST have a Raymarine MFD, and I do not...


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

eherlihy said:


> My O'day 35 is listed at ~12K lbs, 12K lbs x 1.2 (to account for "stuff") is 14.4K lbs. The EV-100 is rated at 16.5K lbs, so that would work. All my other research tells me that the Raymarine EV-100 wheel unit is robust, easy to install, N2K compatable, *and the wheel unit can swapped for a below deck unit.* This seems to fit my needs.


Sure you can swap the wheel drive for a linear drive (about $1650.00) but you'll also need an ACU-200 (about $800.00) as well because they don't provide clutch terminals on the ACU-100.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Boat 3 was a fairly heavy Bayfield 36 with a wheel pilot (I think Raymarine, this was quite a while back). Never gave us trouble. Admittedly this boat was easy to balance with a full keel.

Boats 4 and 5 have been below deck units, which admittedly are better for all the reasons many have listed; however, if I was trying to stay to a budget, and was coastal sailing with occasional offshore passages, and had an 11K # displacement boat, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a wheel pilot.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

Sorry, I should have updated this.

I did go with the EV100 wheel pilot. I am happy with it. I'm sure that I would have been happier with a below deck pilot, but the price, including installation would have been around $5K. I paid $1100 for the EV unit, and another $300 for installation and another $100 for misc stuff so it was around $1500 total.

i have all of my instruments connected with a NMEA 2000 bus. This includes the EV100 pilot, Garmin 740S plotter, Ray ST60 wind and speed, and Simrad VHF / AIS receiver. This allows the pilot to steer to a heading, wind angle, or waypoint. Since I do most of my sailing single or short handed, this is very valuable to me. I also think that proving the pilot with speed and wind allows it to do a better job. I also like being able to display that information on the AP display.

Overall I am happy with the performance. In light to moderate wind the pilot steers better than I do. In windy conditions, the pilot steers well upwind (as long as the sails are properly trimmed, under trimmed is better than over trimmed). Downwind, in a blow, with a sea running, the pilot doesn't do very well. I admit that I don't steer very well in those conditions either. I have had a few times when the drive motor will stop and sound an alarm if there is too much pressure on the helm. Easing the sheets and starting the pilot usually solve that problem.

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions. 

Barry


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Barry,

Do you have any other Raymarine electronics on your boat? Specifically; do you have a Raymarine MFD? 

The reason I ask is that Raymarine has released firmware updates to the sensor core and control head. My understanding is that these can only be made through a Raymarine MFD, or by shipping the components back to Raymarine. I suppose the other option is to forego the updates.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hello,

I have a Garmin MFD (740S). So I have no easy way of upgrading the AP firmware. I wasn't aware there was an upgrade. I guess I will check the Ray web site and if the upgrade is significant I will send the the components back for update. I had to do a similar thing with my Simrad VHF. Over the winter I send it back and they upgraded it. The older FW had a bug where the radio would occasionally switch to the weather channel for no reason. Since the upgrade that has not happened.

Barry


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

I'm surprised you had problems with the CPT because my experiences were the opposite. I bought it as backup for our larger electric/hydraulic below decks but it was so quiet,sipped power and steered our 42 foot boat in all conditions including under spinaker we used it almost exclusively for our Atlantic crossing. They are very robust and have lots of torque. You can't compare a CPT to a RM wheel pilot. The RM wheel pilot is fine for coastal cruising in light to moderate winds/seas but it's not a very powerful unit. These units have been built for years and many sailors have been happy with them. If you look at the main drive motor you will see it is about the same size as D sized flashlight battery.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I am considering the CPT... but I am having a hard time with the appearance of a 1960s HeathKit;









The other issue is that it is $700 _more _than a Raymarine Wheel Pilot


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

robert sailor said:


> I'm surprised you had problems with the CPT because my experiences were the opposite. I bought it as backup for our larger electric/hydraulic below decks but it was so quiet,sipped power and steered our 42 foot boat in all conditions including under spinaker we used it almost exclusively for our Atlantic crossing. They are very robust and have lots of torque. You can't compare a CPT to a RM wheel pilot. The RM wheel pilot is fine for coastal cruising in light to moderate winds/seas but it's not a very powerful unit. These units have been built for years and many sailors have been happy with them. If you look at the main drive motor you will see it is about the same size as D sized flashlight battery.


My sentiments exactly. Have used a CPT for 15 years as the AP, have a monitor windvane, some time get too lazy for the monitor and the CPT does fine. The motor in the CPT is a Bosch windshield wiper motor. Sent it back to the new owners of CPT several years ago. Much better service then when Monitor owned it. Seems they had little experience in basic electronics, and this is very, very basic gear. No NEMA, no bluetooth, no wifi, absolutely dumb as a rock...Ok the owner has to turn a dial....


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Yes the CPT does not win a beauty contest, the RM is a much more attractive unit, no debate on that point. But as I mentioned in my last post compare the power, because your into looks, look at the size of the drive motor. The RM is almost exactly the size of a standard flashlight battery. That's the reason it simply can't compete with the CPT. The older CPT's had a wet compass which was very basic but the new ones have updated solid state electronic guts that can easily steer a 50 foot cruising boat in gale conditions offshore. As I said we used this pilot to steer a 42 foot cruising boat across the Atlantic Ocean. Is it pretty, nope, no way but if your into serious sailing and the **** is hitting the fan and your pretty pilot doesn't work anymore, pretty won't count for much. Having said that if your looking for a light duty wheel pilot for weekend coastal cruising then the RM might be a good choice. By the way the CPT is a very simple install taking about half hour as the unit is mounted using rubber backed C clamps. Ours is back in storage as we use our large below decks for coastal cruising but that ugly big sucker is always available should we need it.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

The season is over, for me anyway, but I hate loose ends. so here is what I did;

I finally upgraded from my c. 2006 Garmin GPSmap 478 chartplotter, to a 2016 Raymarine eS78 - with the touch screen AND (for luddites like me) buttons. My next upgrade will be a new VHF, and to REMOVE all NMEA 0183 from my boat.
Before:








(This picture is from when I bought the boat in 2010, the only picture that I could find of the "old" helm. The Garmin mounted to that piece of weathered teak. Other than the compass, none of the instruments pictured actually worked.)

After:








The tapemeasure is there to verify that I have enough room away from the magnetic compass, and to measure for the canvas binnacle cover.

I had to delve into NMEA 0183 in order to connect this to my VHF with DSC.

Your discerning eye may have also noted the wheelpilot that I mounted as well. This can be controlled directly from the chart plotter, or from its own control head, and is connected to the chartplotter via NMEA 2000;









Here is the heading sensor, and controller for the autopilot, mounted deep in the rear quarterberth;









Because I was there, and because I received a $300 rebate that I had to use this year on the above purchase, I splurged on a Vesper Marine XB-8000 AIS Transponder;








and dedicated AIS VHF antenna;









In truth, the AIS transponder is what drove the entire purchase, as I wanted an AIS system to prepare the boat for the cruise from Narragansett Bay to Ft Myers. Here is a picture of the eS78 showing several AIS targets (including Jasmine which was being serviced ashore) around the marina;


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

The problem with the Raymarine wheel pilot is it is just under powered. Doesn't have anything to do with displacement but force required to turn the wheel. If your boat has a heavy helm, the Raymarine pilot simply won't work when conditions get challenging or just normal, for your boat's weather helm. The X5 Raymarine autopilot on our Pearson 35 was fine for powering which was what I wanted it for but virtually useless under sail. The wheel drive wasn't robust enough to steer the boat and would stall out at anything over about 3 knots boat speed while sailing. If your boat has a light helm, it might work fine even in rough conditions. The wheel pilot did do yeoman's work under power when an equipment failure forced me to turn back for repairs from 200 miles offshore.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

I have a Raymarine wheel pilot. The sound of it is enough to drive you mad. But it functions very well. 

Kakakakakk - kakakakkakkak - kakak- kakkkkkaaak - kakakak....


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