# Storing propane tanks below deck



## Rockstar2011 (May 12, 2011)

I just got a new portable bbq for my O'Day 25. There is really no where to mount it permanently on the deck, so I will have to store it either in the cabin storage or in the storage locker at the stern. This is the bbq I got here: MAGMA PRODUCTS Magma Cabo Gas Grill at West Marine

Just wondering if it is okay to store the bbq in the cabin storage with the propane tank attached? Of course, I would make sure the propane is turned off completely before storing. Is it okay to do this?


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## SailKing1 (Feb 20, 2002)

Not a good idea. Propane can leak and settle in the bilge. Can ignite and cause fire. I kept mine in a PVC attached to the railing on deck.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

WRONG, very wrong, it should be able to drift away, or be in a vented locker to the outside of the boat. A solution won't be hard to find.......*i2f*


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

OK to remove the LPG cylinder and store the grill below, but the cylinder needs to be outside or in a cockpit locker that is vented overboard.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

MAGMA Propane Storage Locker/Tote Bag at West Marine


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## Rockstar2011 (May 12, 2011)

^I don't have a rail on the outside of the boat like that, so would have to improvise somehow. Otherwise, that would be perfect. I didn't know that the cylinder could be removed after it was attached. I figured it wasn't a good idea to keep below deck, but thought I would check. Glad I did.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Yes, it is not the grill that is dangerous but the gas canisters are if not properly stored. 
Propane is heavier then air and will accumulate in the bilge. LPG is somewhat lighter then air and is therefore somewhat less dangerous.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

CalebD said:


> Yes, it is not the grill that is dangerous but the gas canisters are if not properly stored.
> Propane is heavier then air and will accumulate in the bilge. LPG is somewhat lighter then air and is therefore somewhat less dangerous.


LPG (liquified petroleum gas) is primarily propane, often mixed with butane, and is therefore *heavier* than air. LNG (liquified natural gas) and CNG (compressed natural gas) are primarily methane, and therefore lighter than air.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Kaboom.....there were other recent threads of this topic? Search them as they are very informative . The little bombs valves leak when used in a great majority of them. Buy a mesh bag and attach to stern rail or somewhere outside that's vented.

Dave


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

When you discharge any compressed gas, it's temperature will decline. I've seen cylinders form ice on the outside. I highly suspect that those that have experienced leaks have frozen the plunger. Be sure to shut down and give it plenty of time to warm back up before removing the bottle. They also make reusable brass caps for these bottles.

I fully subscribe to keeping them above deck for reasons given above. However, while safety rules may be diligently followed by everyone (im more of a cynic than that) I've not been able to find a report of a boat fire started by a leaking BBQ cylinder.


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## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

Rocky,

Very bad idea. We use an old Coleman stove and regularly cook in the cabin. But when the cooking is done, the canister is unscrewed and ushered outside. I have had a couple freeze open and leak like crazy. If this happens, you can screw the valve back on and store it like that or toss the ailing tank into the dinghy and give it a shove.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Rockstar,
I suggest you read the previous thread "propane canister from hell" before you even think about storing any propane bottles in your cabin or an unvented space on your boat. Pay special attention to the number of sailors who have commented on their leaking 1 lb bombs. First hand experience here also. While you are hard pressed to find an incident with one of these bombs as a specific cause of an explosion, common sense says you wouldnt want some thing which a large amount of incidents leaks gas stored inside your boat

I think we all can agree it is safer, cap or not that storing these canisters outside the cabin in a vented to the outside area is the safest procedure here. All in all it's always safety first.

Dave


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

The problem is that sometimes these cannisters leak and propane is 1.53 times heavier than air and so will accumulate in the lowest point in the boat. It is highly explosive in the right concentration so it must be properly handled and stored. We keep our containers in a back pack on deck so any gas can freely enter the atmosphere and not the boat.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Propane tanks that aren't in a dedicated locker with a dedicated drain, or properly stored above will negate your boat insurance either after the fact or before if you're getting an insurance survey.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

puddinlegs said:


> Propane tanks that aren't in a dedicated locker with a dedicated drain, or properly stored above will negate your boat insurance either after the fact or before if you're getting an insurance survey.


Did you find a clause in your policy that says so?


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Did you find a clause in your policy that says so?


When we bought our boat, the propane system wasn't in very good shape, but during the survey we found that the propane drain hose was 't''d to a hose from the manual bilge pump... yikes! This meant propane could have drained straight into the bilge! I took the 't' out, and ran the bilge hose separately. It had to be done within a certain period of time for the insurer. I can't recall, but I think it was within a couple of weeks. I went ahead and rebuilt the rest of propane system at the same time. Cost about 200-250 in parts, a few hours of labor, and it was done. Inspected again, the insurer was happy, end of story.


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## SVPrairieRose (Oct 10, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> When you discharge any compressed gas, it's temperature will decline. I've seen cylinders form ice on the outside. I highly suspect that those that have experienced leaks have frozen the plunger. Be sure to shut down and give it plenty of time to warm back up before removing the bottle. They also make reusable brass caps for these bottles.
> 
> I fully subscribe to keeping them above deck for reasons given above. However, while safety rules may be diligently followed by everyone (im more of a cynic than that) I've not been able to find a report of a boat fire started by a leaking BBQ cylinder.


Chebucto, in nanaimo bc. Unloaded 14 children and five minutes later the cabin top was ten feet in the air and the boat was holed.


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## Rockstar2011 (May 12, 2011)

DonScribner said:


> Rocky,
> 
> Very bad idea. We use an old Coleman stove and regularly cook in the cabin. But when the cooking is done, the canister is unscrewed and ushered outside. I have had a couple freeze open and leak like crazy. If this happens, you can screw the valve back on and store it like that or toss the ailing tank into the dinghy and give it a shove.


lol @ 'Rocky'

I pretty much figured this was the case. I don't have a stern rail, so I am hanging it off the cord rail (not sure what you call it) running along the side in a plastic grocerybag. It is not pretty, but will do until I get one of those nice bags from West Marine as posted earlier.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVPrairieRose said:


> Chebucto, in nanaimo bc. Unloaded 14 children and five minutes later the cabin top was ten feet in the air and the boat was holed.


From a 1 lb BBQ tank? Is there a news link to read? I've been searching for a story like this for some time.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

puddinlegs said:


> Propane tanks that aren't in a dedicated locker with a dedicated drain, or properly stored above _will negate your boat insurance either after the fact_ or before if you're getting an insurance survey.


I am certain that a survey finding of improper installation would require remediation by the insurance company. I was asking whether you found a clause that says an improperly stored cylinder would negate your insurance coverage after the fact. I'm curious how they would word that and if it is so specific to propane. If a catch all "ABYC standards" is used, I will venture to say that 90% of all boat have no enforceable coverage then.


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## SailKing1 (Feb 20, 2002)

Rock, A piece of PVC either 4" or 5" can't remember for sure, with a cap on the bottom with holes drilled in it and a threaded connector on top with a screw cap will last for ever. The cost is less than $15. It can be made to hold 1, 2, or 3 cans. I made mine to hold 2. Attached to the rail with zip ties. I have also seen these attached to the base of the mast on smaller boats without stanchions.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVPrairieRose said:


> Chebucto, in nanaimo bc. Unloaded 14 children and five minutes later the cabin top was ten feet in the air and the boat was holed.


I found a link. It had to be propane, although, they only speculate. I also doubt it was a 1 lb tank.

Sailboat explodes, sinks off Nanaimo


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

I have a 1 lb tank with a leaking valve right now. I would never take one inside the boat.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> ... It had to be propane, although, they only speculate. I also doubt it was a 1 lb tank...


Propane has an energy density of about 50 MJ/kg (megajoules per kilogram), TNT has an energy density of about 5 MJ/kg (see here). In other words, one pound of propane has about the same energy as _*ten pounds of TNT.*_ Granted, relative to TNT, it is far more difficult to get propane to explode such that all of the material is consumed in one reaction. However, if even just 10% of a one-pound bottle of propane exploded that essentially be equivalent to setting off a pound of TNT.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SlowButSteady said:


> Propane has an energy density of about 50 MJ/kg (megajoules per kilogram), TNT has an energy density of about 5 MJ/kg (see here). In other words, one pound of propane has about the same energy as _*ten pounds of TNT.*_ Granted, relative to TNT, it is far more difficult to get propane to explode such that all of the material is consumed in one reaction. However, if even just 10% of a one-pound bottle of propane exploded that essentially be equivalent to setting off a pound of TNT.


That's interesting. Being far more difficult to get the exact fuel/air mixture to explode is exactly the point, however. If a spider makes a home in the gass grill, it can be impossible to ignite when you are intentionally introducing a spark.

It is still dangerous stuff. I'm only reacting to those statements that suggest any presence of any amount of propane is a given for an explosion. If that were the case, boats would be blowing up all the time. Just watch the number of disposable propane cylinders that fly off the shelves at West Marine.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> ...I'm only reacting to those statements that suggest any presence of any amount of propane is a given for an explosion. If that were the case, boats would be blowing up all the time. Just watch the number of disposable propane cylinders that fly off the shelves at West Marine.


I don't think that anyone has suggested that "any presence of any amount of propane is a given for an explosion." However, given both the energy density and the flash point of propane it's pretty obvious that even small canister of propane has _the potential_ for causing a devastating explosion. Such potential may not be realized very often, but it is realized.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SlowButSteady said:


> ......even small canister of propane has _the potential_ for causing a devastating explosion. Such potential may not be realized very often, but it is realized.


I would agree with that. So far, I'm aware of one circumstance on a boat.

I'm only saying that this danger can be and obviously is managed quite well with all forms of containers aboard.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I would agree with that. So far, I'm aware of one circumstance on a boat.


I hear of a propane explosion on a boat once every year of two in Southern California. Who knows how many there are that are just too small to make the papers/news.



Minnewaska said:


> I'm only saying that this danger can be and obviously is managed quite well with all forms of containers aboard.


Well, one can keep a potentially explosive gas on board and rely of some electronic gizmos (and luck) to keep the explosion from happening, or one can use a safer fuel (like kerosene or alcohol). If one is going to use small bottles of propane for a BBQ, religiously keeping them out of the cabin is reasonable compromise.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Somewhere in another thread perhaps in another forum, someone pointed out a source for screw caps for propane bottles. Plain brass cap with a ruber gasket in it, screws onto the propane cylinder just like a soda bottle cap, and ensures that the cylinder will remain sealed even if the internal valve leaks.

the internal valves aren't really valves, they're just rubber balls that sometimes don't seal well. And if you leave it attached to the stove, even if that valve is shut, it can get knocked loose, etc.

So, better to unscrew the propane bottle, and cap it. RV or camping stores probbaly sell the caps if you can't find them online.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> Somewhere in another thread perhaps in another forum, someone pointed out a source for screw caps for propane bottles. Plain brass cap with a ruber gasket in it, screws onto the propane cylinder just like a soda bottle cap, and ensures that the cylinder will remain sealed even if the internal valve leaks.
> 
> the internal valves aren't really valves, they're just rubber balls that sometimes don't seal well. And if you leave it attached to the stove, even if that valve is shut, it can get knocked loose, etc.
> 
> So, better to unscrew the propane bottle, and cap it. RV or camping stores probbaly sell the caps if you can't find them online.


That sounds like a neat item to have. I'll keep an eye out when I visit stores that sell camping stuff and may try the RV places if that doesn't work.

As far as storage, my main propane tank is in a proper vented locker, but sadly there is no extra room to store a bottle for the grill. I bought some PVC tube intending to mount to the stern rail, but I have so much stuff there already I couldn't find a place to put it that I was happy with. So lacking a better option, I used to just leave them tucked under the dodger but got some rust stains on the cabin top that took some effort to clean up. Finally as I looked around in frustration it occured to me that my anchor locker is a reasonably safe place to store these bottles. Its got a drain at the bottom and doesn't lead to the bilge and its no big deal if it stains the gelcoat in the anchor locker.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> Somewhere in another thread perhaps in another forum, someone pointed out a source for screw caps for propane bottles. Plain brass cap with a ruber gasket in it, screws onto the propane cylinder just like a soda bottle cap, and ensures that the cylinder will remain sealed even if the internal valve leaks.....


That was me in this forum. It's to my point that this danger can be managed well. Some still argue that this isn't good enough, which is why I think the fear is overstated. I currently have these caps on the cylinder, which are stored in my propane locker. The later is an improvement in my process, where they used to be stored in a sealed locker in the cockpit (no vent, no access to bilge).

Amazon.com: Mac Coupler Propane Bottle Cap MacCaps: Sports & Outdoors


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SlowButSteady said:


> I hear of a propane explosion on a boat once every year of two in Southern California. Who knows how many there are that are just too small to make the papers/news.


I'm not trying to be argumentative, but how did you hear of them then? I have heard of propane bottles exploding, but after the boat was already on fire. If it was hearsay, the story can be distorted.

Let's all practice good safe procedures. I only find it interesting how little evidence of explosion there is with the tens of thousands of these cylinders in use, and yet, there are those that suggest they never be used at all.



> .......If one is going to use small bottles of propane for a BBQ, religiously keeping them out of the cabin is reasonable compromise.


Absolutely.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minne...wasnt me this time. I am not agaionst there use at all...Get a cap for it and store it in a vented place, something we all can agree upon.

Midlife....I was able to get an attachment to our propane system with a T which has a hose and a step down to low pressure connection for putting into the venturi tube of the Magma grill so I no longer even need to carry the little 1 lb lbs or worry about their rust. We have two prropane lockers with 10lb bottles in the rear of our cockpit. One has the grill attachement with hose...the other is for the stove, but you can do the same system if you only have one tank and locker also.

Dave


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

chef2sail said:


> Minne...wasnt me this time. I am not agaionst there use at all...Get a cap for it and store it in a vented place, something we all can agree upon.
> 
> Midlife....I was able to get an attachment to our propane system with a T which has a hose and a step down to low pressure connection for putting into the venturi tube of the Magma grill so I no longer even need to carry the little 1 lb lbs or worry about their rust. We have two prropane lockers with 10lb bottles in the rear of our cockpit. One has the grill attachement with hose...the other is for the stove, but you can do the same system if you only have one tank and locker also.
> 
> Dave


Yeah, that sounds like it could work on my boat, but I think my chances of blowing myself to kingdom come would be greatly increased by my messing with the plumbing of my main propane system.

I'd rather take my chances with the 1lb bottles especially since I finally found a simple, out of sight and relatively safe place to store them.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> Minne...wasnt me this time. I am not agaionst there use at all...Get a cap for it and store it in a vented place, something we all can agree upon......


Yup. I noted that. Thanks.

You and I will now live forever...... or at least not die from propane.


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