# Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

I have a P30 with 5' draft and sometimes that depth can get a bit dicey. Would love to have a Pearson 10M because I like the look and inside layout (head, with toilet and sink vs P30 and P32 layout.
Looking at:
1. P34 with Centerboard? Pros and cons? Can't do the 5'11 full keel. Is this just a P30 on steriods (especially wrt the interior?) (I like the aft head in the 33-2 for room and placement)
2. P33-2 with winged keel or Centerboard.....who's faster? Is hull cored or solid? I thought I read that some were solid, some cored....anyone have details, like year or hull numbers if they switched? Any concerns or problems with cored hulls on Pearsons.
3. C&C (yes, cored) with C/B, shoal, wing. Like the C&C above 30' - 33, 34, 35, 36, 38LF (big boat but no one says it's fast but PHRF is in the mid 130's......Hmmm, better than most I'm looking at). Which C&C's have shallower drafts? I'm going all over the web and it's making my head hurt.
4.Tartan (only Masthead sloops, don't want fractional. 3000 (would like larger), 33 and 34's are nice, 37's are wow!, but......
5.C34 and C36 wings, Centerboarders (I'm looking at so many boats, I think Catalina has centerboarders, maybe it's shoal)
6.Sabres, but price points are high, and, yes, very well built, but kind of old style interior (nicer P30 on steriods)...like the Sabre 34's, but the MkII's with the aft head are Way over my dollar value....but, they have MK1 CB's that are within reach ($).
King for a day would be the Pearson 10M - I just like it, beefy, accessible from wheel (main, traveller, jib/genoa winches......if it only had a different keel!!!!
Want to stay below 40k, would like 30's, would love 20's!
Bottom line: Like the Sparkman and Stephens "look". Sleek, fast looking, nice angles. Not so much on the square boats. But, with the Admiral and a 4 year old, need a good size cockpit, good creature comforts below, want some speed and fun....in other words, where is that PERFECT Boat???!!!laugher.gif
Understand: leaky window gaskets, stanchions that need rebedding, but what are horrible, stay away boats that have major issues, not just maintenance or, hey, they are 20-40 years old....what do we expect!!
Thanks
R


----------



## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

At that size, Catalina does not have centerboard boats.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Thanks, I'm considering the wing keel versions and the 34 and 36 are 5+, but no more than 5'7", so still a big maybe.....I think wings are 3"10 and 4'3 respectively on 34/36...just not sure of performance loss with WK vs Fin.
R


----------



## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Unless you are a naval architect or professional racer, I don't know that there is an appreciable difference in performance between a wing and a fin. We have a fin. I think you should focus more on draft and which draft is better for where you want to boat.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Agree, but to note: Naval Shipbuilding with AEGIS Cruisers and Destroyers....28 years with Navy...not professional racer at all.
Draft is consideration, but I see so many on Chesapeake with fins (including my 5') that I wonder if I should change Marinas versus sacrifice fin and expand my boat horizons in the 31-36 range? It is a matter of Marina Cost (I have an unbelievable low cost, but noted low tide channel limitations). Thinking of relocating to New Bern or Tideweter VA area from Northern Ches in retirement....if the Admiral agrees (so maybe not!). Or, just change marinas and bite the annual cost bullet.......Less gunkholing with larger boat, deeper draft though. Seems strange that the overall move to wing didn't seem to happen.....is it because of insignificance on these size boats?


----------



## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I guess it comes down to personal choice. We have a 5'3" draft and it hasn't limited us. The only two places so far that might have been on my list of places to visit that we can't because of draft aren't causing us to regret the fin. Too many other places to go.

And if you have a dinghy, it kind of doesn't matter.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Donna...very good point about the dinghy (but another expense!!), since I'm on a 30 now, I didn't consider a small boat to get in to places if needed.. Since you're in RH, it's a bit deeper than up here in the North...but I like your logic.
Thanks
Rob


----------



## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*



Robcooper0767 said:


> ... Since you're in RH, it's a bit deeper than up here in the North...Thanks
> Rob


One reason (besides loving Rock Hall) why we aren't up north. 

Dinghy is an added expense, yes, but less expensive than buying a new boat.


----------



## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I've got a C34 and a buddy has a C36, both with wings. The two boats have completely different layouts but the difference in size is small. Beam is only an inch difference and overall length is about 1' difference.
Some people prefer the aft head placement of the 34 where others prefer the forward head placement of the 36.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*



Robcooper0767 said:


> 4.Tartan (only Masthead sloops, don't want fractional.
> 
> . But, with the Admiral and a 4 year old, need a good size cockpit, good creature comforts below, want some speed and fun....
> Thanks
> R


I guess I need to ask, I you are sailing on the Chesapeake with a small crew and a four year old, and you want speed and fun, why are you ruling out fractional rigs?

Jeff


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Just like the Masthead look, purely aesthetics for me. Tartan 33 is fractional and has right keel depth and turn of speed, but I like the Tartan 33R looks better, but, of course, it has a 6+ foot draft.......
Might have to look at a few, even sail them, and maybe I can be a convert...not sure.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

@Chuck, I'm favoring the 36' only because the PHRF is 147 vice 159 for Wing and 12 pts lower for Fin.
But, I do like the Aft head on the 34 better.....
How do you like the performance of the Wing? I'd really like to get your in depth thoughts on that, and your buddies if possible. Any comparisons to fins would help too.
Thanks.
Rob


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*



Robcooper0767 said:


> @Chuck, I'm favoring the 36' only because the PHRF is 147 vice 159 for Wing and 12 pts lower for Fin.
> But, I do like the Aft head on the 34 better.....
> How do you like the performance of the Wing? I'd really like to get your in depth thoughts on that, and your buddies if possible. Any comparisons to fins would help too.
> Thanks.
> Rob


I talked to a lot of C30 owners before we bought our boat. Everybody said the same thing - unless you're racing you won't notice the difference between the fin and the wing.

You also won't notice the difference between a 147 rated boat and a 159 rated boat.

In the real world the performance of two boats rated that close, sailing side by side will have more to do with the condition of the sails, how the boat is loaded and the skills of the captain.

Find a boat with a layout you like, in good condition and go enjoy the bay with your family.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I cannot argue with your sense of what looks right to you, since we all have our own personal aesthetic sense and when it comes to buying a boat, what matters is what looks good to you. But in terms of ease of handling, once you try a fractional rig, you might learn to avert your eyes. 

The only trouble with the wing that I can see is that if you run aground, they are much harder to free. There was a time when this was a frequent topic around here. I spoke to a number of people with wing keel boats who also had owned conventional keels, as well as tow boat operators. While some wing keel operators ademantly denied that there was any problem freeing a wing keeled boat, the vast majority of wing keel owners and all of the tow boat operators that I spoke to said that wing keels are much harder to free when they run aground.

To me, here on the Chesapeake a wing keel is a deal breaker. If shoal draft is needed, and performance is even a remote priority either a shoal keel with a bulb or a shoal keel with a centerboard will generally outperform a wing keel, without the difficulty in freeing the boat in a grounding....

Jeff


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*



Jeff_H said:


> The only trouble with the wing that I can see is that if you run aground, they are much harder to free. There was a time when this was a frequent topic around here. I spoke to a number of people with wing keel boats who also had owned conventional keels, as well as tow boat operators. While some wing keel operators ademantly denied that there was any problem freeing a wing keeled boat, the vast majority of wing keel owners and all of the tow boat operators that I spoke to said that wing keels are much harder to free when they run aground.
> 
> Jeff


Jeff,
I've seen this sentiment on SailNet quite a few times, and almost always from Chesapeake Bay sailors.

Sailing Barnegat Bay, where bumping bottom is just part of sailing, I haven't had trouble getting off on the occasional soft grounding (we have a wing).

Did the folks you spoke with make a distinction between a mud and sand bottom? I would think mud would have a suction effect on your keel.

Jim


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Chesapeake is a mix of mud and sand, but there was no discussion of bottom types.

In talking with the towboat operators, they unanimously concluded that it just took more force to free similar sized boats with wing keels and that various freeing strategies (fishtailing, bow downing, standing the boat up, or heeling it over) did not seem to work as well.

I had a similar response from some of the owners. There seemed to be a sense that their wing keels had been seriously planted and they were unable to free them when they might have been able to get out with a previous boat.


----------



## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*



Robcooper0767 said:


> @Chuck, I'm favoring the 36' only because the PHRF is 147 vice 159 for Wing and 12 pts lower for Fin.
> But, I do like the Aft head on the 34 better.....
> How do you like the performance of the Wing? I'd really like to get your in depth thoughts on that, and your buddies if possible. Any comparisons to fins would help too.
> Thanks.
> Rob


Obviously I don't want to sail a slug, but....things like PHRF ratings, full keels being able to point higher than wings and other "performance" issues really don't concern me at all.


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I find that upwind performance matters a lot to me for cruising. I'd rather be sailing than motoring, and being able to point higher and go faster upwind is often the difference between sailing and motoring.

Based on my month long cruise in lower BC this last July I may be in the minority. We were often in short company of sailboats who actually used their sails, especially when going upwind. However we had fun "racing" the others who do like to sail.


----------



## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Get the 10M*

and blow away everyone of those boats. The thing (10M) is a tank yet goes like a scalded dog. My mooring neighbor has a Catalina 30. He leaves the mooring 5 minutes before we do under motor then starts sailing when he gets about 300 yards away. We leave our mooring under sail and catch him within 10-15 minutes.

Not many boats in it's size range, with it's roominess, and sailing characteristics going to touch it with re: performance. Often you'll have to go up in length/size or much newer design to touch her. For a boat that can be bought for around 15K well equipped, it's a real bargain if you want a fast, comfy, cruiser/racer.

The draft isn't really a factor. In the Chessy, unless your draft is <5 ft, your not really going to be gunk holeing anyway.


----------



## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: Get the 10M*



DrB said:


> ...My mooring neighbor has a Catalina 30. He leaves the mooring 5 minutes before we do under motor then starts sailing when he gets about 300 yards away. We leave our mooring under sail and catch him within 10-15 minutes....


*hmph* Fastest is not always the bestest.


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

*Re: Get the 10M*



DrB said:


> and blow away everyone of those boats. The thing (10M) is a tank yet goes like a scalded dog. My mooring neighbor has a Catalina 30. He leaves the mooring 5 minutes before we do under motor then starts sailing when he gets about 300 yards away. We leave our mooring under sail and catch him within 10-15 minutes.
> 
> Not many boats in it's size range, with it's roominess, and sailing characteristics going to touch it with re: performance. Often you'll have to go up in length/size or much newer design to touch her. For a boat that can be bought for around 15K well equipped, it's a real bargain if you want a fast, comfy, cruiser/racer.
> 
> The draft isn't really a factor. In the Chessy, unless your draft is <5 ft, your not really going to be gunk holeing anyway.


Well it's all about balance and priorities isn't it?

How do you want to use the boat? The Pearson 10M and the Catalina 30 are at opposite ends of the cruiser/racer spectrum and targeted toward very different sailors.

We live aboard every weekend and I can tell you the 10M wouldn't work for us. But then our sailing style is more about relaxed cruising. If you sailed past us I'd wave and smile, spread some more crab dip on a cracker and go back to discussing how bad the Eagles will be this season. You wouldn't hurt my feelings at all 

To the OP, I still say the best way to find a boat is to get your spouse and go boat shopping. Getting on board is the only way to figure out what's right for you.


----------



## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: Get the 10M*



JimMcGee said:


> Well it's all about balance and priorities isn't it?
> 
> How do you want to use the boat? The Pearson 10M and the Catalina 30 are at opposite ends of the cruiser/racer spectrum and targeted toward very different sailors.
> 
> ...


Why wouldn't a 10M work for you aside from maybe the draft (5' 11") too deep for some parts of Barnegat Bay? It has all the creature comforts of a Catalina 30, just larger. It's not a race boat by any means. I can sleep 5+ on real berths, have a two burner stove, full enclosed head with shower, fold down table, lockers, etc. While my 10M doesn't have an oven, some do. I have an decent sized ice box.

And while some folks always say, it isn't always about the speed, to which I mostly agree with, I could argue because I can sail more efficiently (less wind for same speed), I do more sailing than motoring.

The OP said he wanted 10M, but had concerns about it's draft for the Chessy. My point was that unless he gets a boat <5' for a draft to allow him more anchoring areas in the Chessy, a boat that is 5' 3" isn't really any different than one that is say 5' 9" for that purpose. So if he'sgoing to get a boat with a draft over 5', get the one that he already has his eye on.


----------



## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I'm a performance guy. I feel the need for speed. But i also feel the need not to bump my head every time i go down below and have enough creature comforts to spend a week at a time. Figure of what is most important to you. trading seconds per mile for a more comfortable ride is a trade off well made.

Right now i too am looking for a Chessie boat. Cat 30 is on the list as is the Pearson 323. I figure they are fast enough. And, when i get the jonesin' for real speed on a sailboat i'll just take out the Hobie 16 or hitch a ride on my buddy's Hobie Tiger. Not many blow boats gonna touch either of them in the speed department.


----------



## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

*Re: Get the 10M*



DrB said:


> Why wouldn't a 10M work for you aside from maybe the draft (5' 11") too deep for some parts of Barnegat Bay? It has all the creature comforts of a Catalina 30, just larger. It's not a race boat by any means. I can sleep 5+ on real berths, have a two burner stove, full enclosed head with shower, fold down table, lockers, etc. While my 10M doesn't have an oven, some do. I have an decent sized ice box.
> 
> And while some folks always say, it isn't always about the speed, to which I mostly agree with, I could argue because I can sail more efficiently (less wind for same speed), I do more sailing than motoring.
> 
> The OP said he wanted 10M, but had concerns about it's draft for the Chessy. My point was that unless he gets a boat <5' for a draft to allow him more anchoring areas in the Chessy, a boat that is 5' 3" isn't really any different than one that is say 5' 9" for that purpose. So if he'sgoing to get a boat with a draft over 5', get the one that he already has his eye on.


DrB, Just wanted to chime in here. Anything over 5 feet is going to limit you in Barnegat. And 5'11" is really pushing it to unusable in most of the bay. While there are parts of the bay that are over 12 feet deep, more of it is between 6 and 8, with large areas of 5 and 6 feet. Many of the marina's, even sailboat marinas, can't handle more than 5 feet of keel.


----------



## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*



TJC45 said:


> I'm a performance guy. I feel the need for speed. But i also feel the need not to bump my head every time i go down below and have enough creature comforts to spend a week at a time. Figure of what is most important to you. trading seconds per mile for a more comfortable ride is a trade off well made.
> 
> Right now i too am looking for a Chessie boat. Cat 30 is on the list as is the Pearson 323. I figure they are fast enough. And, when i get the jonesin' for real speed on a sailboat i'll just take out the Hobie 16 or hitch a ride on my buddy's Hobie Tiger. Not many blow boats gonna touch either of them in the speed department.


Catalina 30s are known for comfort, not performance nor speed. Definitely not speed. "Fast enough" for a performance and speed lover may leave you disappointed. Unless, of course, you're racing against another C30, in which case you can give yourself the illusion of flying.


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

*Re: Get the 10M*



DrB said:


> Why wouldn't a 10M work for you aside from maybe the draft (5' 11") too deep for some parts of Barnegat Bay? It has all the creature comforts of a Catalina 30, just larger. It's not a race boat by any means. I can sleep 5+ on real berths, have a two burner stove, full enclosed head with shower, fold down table, lockers, etc. While my 10M doesn't have an oven, some do. I have an decent sized ice box.


DrB you asked so please take this as comparing differences not criticizing your boat.

We spent a fair bit of time looking at different boats before deciding the C30 was the best boat for us. We wanted a boat that wasn't a slug but had a comfortable motion. Shallow draft (3'10") for Barnegat Bay and would be comfortable living aboard every weekend and occasionally for a week or more. The boat should also have good resale value if we decided to go to something larger at some point.

Comparing Pearson 10M's on yachtworld to our boat a couple of things jumped out at me. First the 5'11" draft would really limit us on the Barnegat. It's not at all unusual for us to be sailing with only 18" under our keel 4' keel. It's also not unusual for us to bump bottom.

Cockpit. Our cockpit is roomier, with an open transom and stern seats that are a favorite for my wife and guests. On our boat the traveler is on the cabin top and the wheel is at the back of the cockpit. On the 10M both the traveler and the wheel block the companionway. It makes tweaking the main sheet and handling your jib lines a bit easier than ours but would drive me crazy living aboard and squeezing past them (I'm a big dude). Do I lose a couple of seconds when I have to set the autopilot and go forward to adjust the traveler? Yep, but for our style of sailing that's OK.

Ground tackle. Our anchor lives in a bow roller making anchoring easier. All lines are run to the cockpit, so you don't have to go to the mast to raise/lower the sail or to reef.

Belowdeck. We have an "L" shaped settee that I've enlarged. It gives us plenty of room to stretch out and comfortable corners to curl up with a book or watch TV. The interior of the 10M with the parallel bench seats (and sea berths above the settees?) seems much tighter, though you actually have 2" more beam. The usable room in the 10M salon seems more comparable in size to my friend's 28 O'Day. But if those are sea berths they make perfect sense for a race crew.

The galley is also a big difference. Ours is big enough to cook real meals and we have an oven that can cook a warm stew on chilly fall day. The 10M galley seems more suited to re-heating meals for the on deck crew.

Like I said just different priorities.


----------



## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: Get the 10M*



JimMcGee said:


> DrB you asked so please take this as comparing differences not criticizing your boat.
> 
> We spent a fair bit of time looking at different boats before deciding the C30 was the best boat for us. We wanted a boat that wasn't a slug but had a comfortable motion. Shallow draft (3'10") for Barnegat Bay and would be comfortable living aboard every weekend and occasionally for a week or more. The boat should also have good resale value if we decided to go to something larger at some point.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Yes, a draft of 5' 11" would be an issue in Barnegat Bay. The traveler in the cockpit (10M) can get in the way when lounging, but I makes it single handing easy as does the wheel forward near the sail controls. I wish my boat had a true anchor locker. The other thing that my boat does well for me is the headroom in the salon. I am 6' 6" and can fit in the 10M, while I can't in many 30-36' boats.


----------



## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Just get the Tartan 37 and be done with it


----------



## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I "moved up" from a C&C 30 MKI to a C&C 30 MKII. Draft for the wing keel is 4' 10"

Space down below is bigger than most 30 footers, including the Catalina 30.

Aft cabin, walk through transom, aft head with room for a comfortable shower, six opening ports (not including the companionway and forward hatch), big lazarettes, propane locker and 6' 2"+ headroom throughout the cabin.

I think if you compared this boat with most other boats below 34' you would be amazed.

Did I mention it's pretty darn fast and easy to sail?


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Spent much of today with 4 year old daughter as wharf/dock rats. Getting the wife to go boat shopping is like me trying to get her to go look at motorcycles with me.......uh, no.
Looked at C&C 34 MKI, MKII may be out of price range.
C&C 30 and Catalina 30 are probably too small, didn't get a great vibe on C&C 34 MKI, but didn't go inside, not sure if I've looked at the C&C 30 MKII, or the price.
DrB, I love the 10M but concerned over the "classic interior" and the draft... it's not out, but Jim's comment about roomier cockpit, open transom (not a must have), and the "L" shaped settee that gives us plenty of room to stretch out and comfortable corners to curl up with a book or watch TV may be a key for family. The interior of the 10M with the parallel bench seats, or even say an older Sabre 34 with same setup, like my P30, may not be what we end up with.....jury is still out.
Now, I did see a Tartan 37 right across from the C&C 34......wow, muscular, nice looking boat, interested in seeing one inside, any leads for Western Chesapeake (northern) area?
While some say Catalina is the Chevy of boats (don't anyone be insulted, but we've all heard it one way or the other), I'm considering the C34, 36 (Wing versions), and now, the C38 Shoal Draft (Sparkman and Stevens design....love it!) - the C38 has a great PHRF at 123 and the C34 and C36 respectable 140's to high 150's. If I can find a C38 with shoal that I can afford.......Are the 34's and 36's ok for the Bahamas run (not far, but Ocean none the less.. 
The Tartan 37 and Pearson 34, 33-2, 36-2 with CBs, and the Pearson 37 with Wing keel work for me.....have to do interior considerations and still wonder if CB's will clunk at anchor or dock when trying to sleep (these are quality boats, hope it wouldn't be noisy, anyone know?)
Saw Beneteau's, Hunters and other Fractional's, sorry, still not in the running.....like the Mastheads.
What I did figure out, by seeing and with all your comments so far, is that I saw a beautiful Ericson Racer/Cruiser today (probably 34-36 ft) next to the Tartan 37. It was sleek, looked and I was told, was fast, and comfortable below. Problem was it had more winches on the cabin top, and the Tartan looked plain/simple with much less "equipment". Many of you have said, stop worrying about PHRF/speed.....here's the thing: I know that I want a challenging/"faster" boat, not a bobber. But, since I will probably be singlehanding it, as my wife has 99.9% of her eyes on Juliana when we're sailing, and when I do get to "beer can race" someday, I'll need to do most of the work....many winches, adjustments, equipment just isn't in the cards. I'm not a "racer" and don't plan to do it professionally at 54 years of age!
Dollars and Draft: family friendly cockpit and interior, fast enough for my enjoyment......I'm narrowing the field, but seem to keep dreaming about boats that may be out of reach, dollar-wise. But, offers never hurt anyone in a buyers market.
Keep those inputs coming, if you know of some of these that an owner would be gracious enough to let me on board and "feel it", preferably not too far from home, please respond or PM me.
And keep it going, you all are really helping.
Thanks
Rob


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

BTW, maybe found a Tartan 37 in Texas, near Houston if all this pans out. Comments/recommendations on Salt water boats? I know Great Lake and Texas lake boats seem to bring a premium for "fresh water", but, hey, it's a boat, right? (or am I just showing my ignorance of: "dummy, it's an old boat you're looking at, and salt water is not a good mix with old boats!").
Also, the boats I'm starting to mention (the bigger ones) will be erased quickly if I only have $20-25k to put in....


----------



## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Pm me...Im near Baltimore


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Shawn,
Thanks, PM sent.
Rob


----------



## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Consider More than the boat*

There's the boat purchase price and the cost of ownership price. Going up every 3 ft roughly doubles your ownership costs. So a 33 ft boat is 2X more costly to own than a 30ft boat. Storage fees, taxes, bottom paint, sails, moorage/dock fees are more expensive and recurring costs.

So before you go out and buy a 34-37' boat because you can get it a "great price" and you envision needing all the room, gadgets, phrf performance, etc. , figure out what the annual cost of ownership will be. First question when looking for dockage for the night, winter storage, taxes, etc....."How Big is Your Boat?"


----------



## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Rob,

You started out this thread by implying that you want a different boat because the draft of your current boat concerned you in your current location. Later you've moved to getting a different boat so that you can sail to the Bahamas. And increased the boat size. It's kinda like trying to help a moving target.


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*



RobGallagher said:


> I "moved up" from a C&C 30 MKI to a C&C 30 MKII. Draft for the wing keel is 4' 10"
> 
> Space down below is bigger than most 30 footers, including the Catalina 30.
> 
> ...


Rob, never been aboard a C&C 30 MKII. Just looked at one online. Interesting boat.

One thing I should mention with the Catalina 30's is that the MKIII boats (after '95) are different in a lot of significant ways from the earlier boats. It's not just the open transom.


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Something that I always look at on boats is access to the engine, plumbing, electrical and seacocks since I do all my own work.

All boats are a bear to work on, but some are MUCH harder than others. A boat with an inaccessible engine would get crossed off my list no matter what its other virtues.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

@Donna,
This thread has helped me think of many new considerations. Draft is a primary issue, but so is livability and do I want to get that boat that doesn't have to be a "trade-up" later - and as we have more free time (whatever that is!) and can go further, is it capable of transiting to Bahamas, something I'd like to do someday.
@DrB,
That exact thought crossed my mind last night as I "laid me down to sleep" 
Cost - operating, et.al. is an ongoing issue.....I was thinking about slip fees, and the over 35' seems the magic number for a much larger yearly bill, winter storage too........gotta ponder that one! May want to keep below (still like that Tartan 37 though!).
@Jim
C&C's are nice, need to get aboard a few sizes and look. The C30 MKII looks real nice and has nice appointments. I think they are "too new", too much $ from what I've found on yachtworld and sailboatlistings.com to name a few.
Also, "right on" with work/access.......my P30 requires a contortionist to check the darn oil........do-able, but a bit harder at my age (54) and will only get tougher as I "age gracefully"

Back to Donna: I'm laughing a bit at myself.....I have had tangential thoughts pinging around in this thread.......so much to consider when choosing a "new" boat if this comes to pass. Based on my P30 and the likes/dislikes, and how long it took me to narrow that one down, the runoff ended with CAL30 and Pearson30, I now have a better feel on what the wife likes, and for this to be a family hobby, need to consider that so it stays a good thing for the whole family to enjoy, not just me.
Cheers,
Rob


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

@DrB: not to mention sails, equipment, just keep on goin'....yep...seeing the dollars fly out of my wallet with bigger.....

@all:
That's why this discussion, albeit a bit "all over the map" is really helping me try to narrow the field like I did with my P30....went from a whole lot, to 2 choices, but didn't have the access to you folks to help.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Ok, so let's say I stay with 33 or 34 footer. And I do relocate to Tidewater VA (Norfolk area) or New Bern, NC, I'll be doing Coastal Ocean sailing. I lived in California for 8 years and used to sail to Catalina Island and in Pacific Coast from San Diego to Oceanside areas. Will do the same if we are closer to Atlantic. And the Bahamas option will be in play too.
Question: Any 30-33/34 footers that should drop off the consideration, or boats that should be added based on this. Keep in mind that before this happens, (Donna!), I'll still need to keep my eye on draft for the Chesapeake.....BTW, I hear Bahamas have alot of shallow draft areas too......


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I'm trying to post a new photo of the P30. New AWLGRIP, etc. but the limitation on upload is defeating me....any advice there?
Rob


----------



## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

*Re: Consider More than the boat*



DrB said:


> Going up every 3 ft roughly doubles your ownership costs. So a 33 ft boat is 2X more costly to own than a 30ft boat. Storage fees, taxes, bottom paint, sails, moorage/dock fees are more expensive and recurring costs.


I am confused by this statement. Do others agree with it?

Storage fees where I am are by the foot, so going from 30 to 33 feet is a 10% increase. Same with moorage fees. If you have the yard paint the bottom, it is also by the foot. And if you do it yourself, adding 3 feet to a 30 foot boat doesn't double the amount of bottom paint you need. Nor does it double the cost of sails. What am I missing?


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Rob, I would not rule out the Sabre 34 MK1 ( centerboard) with 3'11" draft and a 50' air clearance it will take you just about anywhere you'd want to go on the East Coast. 
It's a very traditional layout but quite comfortable for 3 people.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Re: Consider More than the boat*



DrB said:


> There's the boat purchase price and the cost of ownership price. Going up every 3 ft roughly doubles your ownership costs. So a 33 ft boat is 2X more costly to own than a 30ft boat. Storage fees, taxes, bottom paint, sails, moorage/dock fees are more expensive and recurring costs.
> 
> First question when looking for dockage for the night, winter storage, taxes, etc....."How Big is Your Boat?"


I could not disagree more. While the cost of boat ownership goes up as the boat's displacement increases, and to a lesser extent as a boat gets longer, In my experience the price of boat ownership does not even begin to double when you at 10-15% to the length of a boat. In reality, cost for sails, bottom painting, hardware, and so on are more directly related to displacement. Insurance is solely related to age and market value. Storage and dockage is somewhat dependent on length with marinas ever increasingly including bowsprits and davits in the length, but lengths are typically bracketed with the same price for a given bracket. But dockage is also a portion of owning a boat, maybe 20-30%, so increasing the length by 20% only adds perhaps 6% to owning a boat. It does not double the cost.

If there are significant factors which controls the cost of ownership, it is the condition of the boat when you bought her, the original build quality, original design quality, and your ability to do your own maintenence and keep the boat in solid condition during the period she is yours.

Buying a beat up boat means there will probably be a lot that needs replacement that you and the surveyor cannot see. Buying a boat with mediocre to poor build quality means that it will wear out sooner and could develop potentially major repair costs that a better built boat might avoid. Buying a boat that has been religiously maintained means there is less to replace and upgrade over time. Being able to do your own maintenance, and actually doing it religiously, is a reward unto itself, but also means a familiarity with the details of your boat so that things get repaired and maintained before they fail and lead to bigger problems and expenses.

Jeff


----------



## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Maybe not 2X*



Jeff_H said:


> I could not disagree more. While the cost of boat ownership goes up as the boat's displacement increases, and to a lesser extent as a boat gets longer, In my experience the price of boat ownership does not even begin to double when you at 10-15% to the length of a boat. In reality, cost for sails, bottom painting, hardware, and so on are more directly related to displacement. Insurance is solely related to age and market value. Storage and dockage is somewhat dependent on length with marinas ever increasingly including bowsprits and davits in the length, but lengths are typically bracketed with the same price for a given bracket. But dockage is also a portion of owning a boat, maybe 20-30%, so increasing the length by 20% only adds perhaps 6% to owning a boat. It does not double the cost.
> 
> If there are significant factors which controls the cost of ownership, it is the condition of the boat when you bought her, the original build quality, original design quality, and your ability to do your own maintenence and keep the boat in solid condition during the period she is yours.
> 
> ...


Up where I live, there are price changes over 30 ft. 30 and less, one cost, over 30 another, especially true with dockage and storage. For example it maybe $110 for 30' or less and $120 for boats over 30' for dock space, so your $3300 fee now becomes $3960 for 33" boat, which is more than 10%. Do that for winter storage and shrink wrap, etc. and it adds up.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Re: Maybe not 2X*



DrB said:


> Up where I live, there are price changes over 30 ft. 30 and less, one cost, over 30 another, especially true with dockage and storage. For example it maybe $110 for 30' or less and $120 for boats over 30' for dock space, so your $3300 fee now becomes $3960 for 33" boat, which is more than 10%. Do that for winter storage and shrink wrap, etc. and it adds up.


It sounds like we are pretty much in agreement, since that is pretty close to what I said, since dockage is roughly 20-30% of the cost of boat ownership and the price increase that you are showing is roughly a 20% increase in dock costs, then the operating expense increase is about 6% of the overall total operating expense. Not the end of the world if you increase your operating range and comfort level. And since most of the boats in this discussion are over 30 feet as marinas measure it these days, that 10% incremental for would apply to most of the boats being considered. But also for what its worth, some marinas increase the price per foot for big boats, some decrease it for bigger boats.

Jeff


----------



## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I grew up in the Tidewater area. If you are sailing down there ... there are only a few marinas that can accommodate you ... In Little Creek or Metro Norfolk or Willoughby Spit ... You really won't need a shoal draft there because the inlets that are shallow are blocked by low bridges (such as Lynnhaven or Broad Bay).


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

David,
If we end up in Norfolk, I'll try to use the Amphib Base or Naval Shipyard Marina's on the Naval bases. Do you have any info on limitations for those? We did a house/area looksee about two months ago around the entire Tidewater area, if you do the clock face example, from Toana at 11 o'clock, to north Williamsburg (too crowded), Smithfield and west to south, to Nansemond, southern Chesapeake, to Moyock, NC, to around and below Pungo (very south VA Beach), to Poquoson, up to Gloucester, Hayes, over to Mobjack Bay.....need to be in "rural, suburban" but need good schools for the 4 year old to grow into....but the Peninsula (Williamsburg-south) is out...way too much traffic and people along I-64 corridor for me. Also looking at New Bern/Neuse River/Oriental, NC area.Rob


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

@Tempest:
I'm tracking quite a few of the Sabre 34 MkI's....the MkIIs are out of my price range at $50+ K......

@Jim McGee,
The MKII's are nice but same story, out of my price range I think. R


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

New sails every 10 years -- $3000 = $300/year
Bottom paint every 2 years -- $1200 (including labor and haul out) = $600/year
Engine maint per year -- $100
Running rigging every 10 years -- $1000 = $100/year
Total of these big ticket maint items: $1100/year
Moorage every year -- $4000/year

All highly rounded and in today's prices. I also left out plenty of maint costs, I just wanted to make a point.

For me moorage is the highest cost of boat ownership by far. It's also not linear in Seattle, a 30' slip is $323/mo ($10.76/foot) while a 34' slip is $395/mo ($11.61/foot). Another way to think of it is that those extra 4 feet cost $72/mo or almost $900/year. For that cost I can afford to charter a larger boat for the rare times that I'd want it. Slips here are priced by the slip length, not the boat length.

I don't think it is worth buying into "what if" scenarios for purchasing the boat. Buy the boat that meets your known needs for today and the next few years. If the "what if" scenario comes around and you have time to sail to Europe then you'll just upgrade at that point. The costs of keeping a "what if" boat around and in good shape until then will cost you a lot.

Sail prices are related to sail area, and sail area is related to displacement, so that one really does go up exponentially with length. Running rigging and standing rigging also do. A larger cruising boat will also likely have more systems to maintain, which will also increase the annual costs.


----------



## Dick6969 (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Have you looked at a Pearson 323? 4.5 Draft.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I did and the PHRF is in the mid-170's. I'm trying to stay at the 150's or lower if possible. I think the 323 is more of a cruiser, than cruiser/racer.....total sail area is 477.02, vs about 510 to 550 for the 33-2, 34, 34-2's and they all sit in the 150 arena. I do like the interior layout, if it had the performance too, it would be a keeper for me!


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I've owned a 1985 Cal 33-2 shoal keel for the last 4 years and it would seem to fit your requirements pretty well. Base PHRF rating is 138 and draft is 4'8". Most seem to be priced from high 20s to 40s. I like the interior layout much better than most boats her size and its a great performer in both light and heavy winds. Here's a link with data.

CAL 33 (HUNT) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Have a CAL 35 MKII I found on Sailboatlistings.com - 1984 Cal 35 MK II sailboat for sale in Massachusetts
That I've saved....it's nice too, a Lapworth design. - 5' fin keel
The 33 (Hunt) Shoal (yours) is a very nice boat.....I've got that on the list too, Any issues I should know of with CALs?
I didn't mean to exclude them, for whatever reason they fell off, but shouldn't have. My 30' decision was shortlisted to P30 and CAL30, and I found a P30 I liked/condition I wanted first.

Appreciate the reminder.....what are the things to look for/avoid (other than the "obvious" moisture in deck, etc. Did CAL 33 and 35's have any known, special problems to look out for?
THanks again,
Rob


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Cal's (and lots of other boats) have the chainplates mounted to wooden bulkheads instead of to fiberglass knees. You need to give special attention to those in a survey to make sure that there isn't any rot.

I haven't been on a Pearson 33-2, but I'd guess that the chainplates go to fiberglass knees like in my 28-2. There is no bulkhead in a suitable location. I really like how these boats are rigged.

As an aside it's weird that Pearson rounded up the name of the 32.5' long boat to 33-2, but rounded down the name of the 28.5' boat to 28-2. There is a 4' difference in length, but a 5' difference in naming convention.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

The answer to your needs is a C&C 35 MKIII k/cb. Draft is 4'6" board up and 7 board down. Nice weighted board so it doesn't rattle in its trunk. Great 6'6" interior headroom. C shaped setee makes it a great set up for cruising. We sail the Chessie and also take her offshore to Ne England every year.

Most C&C are not cored hulls so don't let others scared you off. Thickness of hull fiberglass is huge compared to most boats. Topside have end grain balsa core which makes the boat stiff.
Lines lead aft. Gigantic anchor compartment and very large V compared to the other boats you are looking at. Large refrigerated box at 6 cubic , nice safe galley.

This model is a true racer/ cruiser which will keep you at the front of the pack with others on your heels with a PHRF of 127. Set up with drastic inboard jib tracks which allow for very tight pointing angles to windward and when it pipes up you drop the cb and sail inside made others. Good quality workmanship, nice warm teak inside with very little on the outside. Great lines.

We bought ours with a Sabre 36, and a Tartan 37 in close competition. It came down to which was in the best condition.

If you want a truly fast hybrid which is comfortable...can't go wrong with most C&C . Feel free to PM me if you wish to.

Dave


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*



Robcooper0767 said:


> Appreciate the reminder.....what are the things to look for/avoid (other than the "obvious" moisture in deck, etc. Did CAL 33 and 35's have any known, special problems to look out for?
> THanks again,
> Rob


Never been on a Cal 35, but the construction of my 33-2 is impressive. The shrouds are NOT just tied to plywood bulkheads, but stainless rods tie the loads into the structural grid. Hull is solid (no core) and interior finish is a step above most of the popular boats of her day. Engine access is exceptional. No unique issues to watch out for that I'm aware of.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

@Alex W: And why is the 34-2 really a 34.5' boat!! And the "old" P34 is a 33.78'.......one explanation might be the same as the one for my P30, a 29 and change' boat. The P30 has to be "under 30'" to allow it to compete on the race circle when it was first introduced...I think that the P34 might have similar rationale, but maybe the later Pearsons didn't have that race thing that they had to meet.....or something??

@Dave and Jim,
Thanks for info. As I further and further refine, I'm using the input to search in smaller and smaller circles.
Interesting that the Sabre 34MKI is a nice, nicely built boat, but 20 points higher than the MKII. I'm not sure what I'm really getting on a MKI that would justify the traditional layout inside and a higher PHRF number than the nicer, faster MKII that is over 50K and out of my range.

SABRE: Any Sabre owners want to chime in on the MKI....I know there is a very faithful following, and they are built well, but the galley, creature comforts (shower), seem limited on a 34'er.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

@Dave,
What year is your 35 MKIII?


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

@Dave
Check this one out. Since you have one, This has an "unconventional" 5'5" keel. Was that a C&C option keel, or something someone did?
1984 C&C Mark III 35 sailboat for sale in Michigan
Pretty boat!
Thanks


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Here's a CB version in MA. (4'2" draft)
1985 C&C 35 sailboat for sale in Massachusetts

Here's one that has a 5'5" keel (That I noted in earlier page asking if this has an "unconventional" 5'5" keel. a C&C option keel, or something someone did through keel modification?).
1984 C&C Mark III 35 sailboat for sale in Michigan
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/29273

Anyone know either of these boats?....or the answer to the 5'5" keel?
Rob


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Question for all:
Thinking about Keel/CBs and the comments on "marine growth" etc. that can cause problems. As noted, we are very north Chesapeake Bay, but if we relocate to Norfolk or New Bern area, would we face a bigger growth problem? I know that bottoms get a whole lot messier even above Baltimore, at Middle River. MD. I plan to take the boat out of the water each winter like I do here.....but, if Norfolk or New Bern are not in the freeze zones, do I need to take it out each year? Or, do most folks "just do it" to give their boats a break/for inspection and bottom work?
Haven't lived down in those areas, so really don't know.


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I am not of fan of keel/CB boats. Just something else to maintain and have problems with (board jamming, cable breaking, etc). A Pearson 34 in our club almost sank when the fitting for the CB cable broke. I am happy with the performance of my shoal keel Cal 33-2.


----------



## swimnfit (Dec 2, 2008)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Rob,

Not certain if the C34 is still in consideration for you but I certainly would not write it off just yet. Although I'm a West Coaster, many folks I know are sailing in the same waters that you are sailing. The C34 has a fantastic layout, easy to maintain and has a very solid owners site to answer any questions you might have. 
BTW.. Thank You for your service... I am also retired Navy 

Check out the C34IA site. lots of answers to any question you may have regarding the C34.

Wing Keels vs. Fin Keels

Main Message Board


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

S:
Appreciate your comments, thank you for your Service to our Nation!
I'm still considering them. A fellow in the Marina I'm temporarily at with the P30 (he works at the Marina) gave me his keys to his C34 (1988). This boat is probably in the best shape of any sailboat I have ever seen (I'm not exaggerating at all). Large cockpit, large foredeck for the girls to tan (yes, we know they will), and nice belowdecks. What I did notice is the aft head "shortens" the cabin from the ladder forward. The vee berth seems very "close", since there is no midships head to lengthen the visual distance to the vee berth bulkhead. That took some getting used to and I just stayed below to get adjusted to it. It is a VERY family friendly layout, I know the wife would like it. Sailing characteristics are good, nice PHRF rating.
It's still on the list......the "newer ones", like John's 1988 are probably as old as I want to go. Can you tell me when the 1988-like design would have begun? Since C34's are so large in numbers, did that "1988" look start a few years earlier? I noticed that the Catalina Yachts emblem is the "newer" design on his boat, on the port and starboard stern area...
Thanks for the websites!
R


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

BTW:
I know many have asked why I care about PHRF for a "family boat". I probably should have explained that while I do want a competitive racer/cruiser for future beer can racing, I use the PHRF as a good litmus test for the turn of speed I'm looking for. Seems the 150's and below are where I'm feeling most comfortable.
R


----------



## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

JimsCAL:1076127 said:


> I am not of fan of keel/CB boats. Just something else to maintain and have problems with (board jamming, cable breaking, etc).


Often as we see here, opinions are often based on just that, opinion. But how often do we get facts? While I have only owned our boat for 8 years, only once have I had to do any maintenance other than paint our c/b. I pulled the c/b to reglass the eye for the pennet ...that was it. It was a about a 4 hour project give or take. True it is another item to maintain, same can be said for a fridge for example. In the big picture of boat ownership, its pretty insignificant. For the Chesapeake a c/b offers a lot of positives with few drawbacks.

Key is finding manufacturers who built good c/b designs.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I've noticed too that many CB'ers don't even put the board down and use the boat basically with a shoal keel depth.......go figure.


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*



Robcooper0767 said:


> BTW:
> I know many have asked why I care about PHRF for a "family boat". I probably should have explained that while I do want a competitive racer/cruiser for future beer can racing, I use the PHRF as a good litmus test for the turn of speed I'm looking for. Seems the 150's and below are where I'm feeling most comfortable.
> R


Read about the base handicap for PHRF too. It is usually something like 500 seconds. A 170 vs 150 boat is only about 3% slower, not the 13% that you'd guess if you did ((170/150)*100)-100.

I have a boat that is pretty typical speed wise of 30' cruisers with base PHRF in the 170s, setup for cruising (dodger, anchor, fixed prop, etc) we were given a PHRF of 201. When cruising I find that we still pass a lot of boats that should have a base PHRF in the 130s, the difference between the two isn't that great and really comes down to paying attention to sail trim. I've also been passed by boats that have a higher PHRF than mine, but that are being better sailed.

There are a lot of ways that a boat with a base handicap of 170 could outperform a boat with a base handicap of 150. A folding prop, smaller dodger, not dragging a dinghy, and better sails would more than make up that difference.

Even if the true handicaps were 20 seconds apart that is a difference of 5 minutes on a 30 mile day.

I think it's worth paying some attention to PHRF if you want to avoid really slow boats, but I wouldn't worry about the difference of 20 seconds.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*



JimsCAL said:


> I am not of fan of keel/CB boats. Just something else to maintain and have problems with (board jamming, cable breaking, etc). A Pearson 34 in our club almost sank when the fitting for the CB cable broke. I am happy with the performance of my shoal keel Cal 33-2.


That comment is really one for one particular boat in one marinia. There is no reason a keel/ cb boat would have more chance of sinking than any other boat.

Not sure how Pearson made their C/B but ours is on a cable which run through a thru hull with a stainless steel conduit attached to it with the opening above the deck. Irt is never benn hard to maintain, you change the cable as part of regular maintainence every 3 years, Takes 15 minutes. It attaches to the end of a 500 lb weighed cb. The trunk cabinet in the keel; it tucks into is wide enough and the diver says there is no more growth than the rest of the hull.

The performance you gain with a CB is noticeable to windward.

If you keep you boat on the Chessie you will find you need a diver to go down a couple times a year no matter where you keep it. We are mid to north in Rock Creek. Good bottom paint...ours is on its third year, a diver to wipe off the prop and shaft and touch up the hull is all you need. Since you are north, sometimes we go into Still Pond, and Sassafrass, and I snorkel under the boat and wipe her off as there are no nettles there.

Many good manufacturers made k/ cb boats like Bristol, Shannon, Island packet, Tartan Sabre, C&C Morgan etc. I have never heard of any great number sinking because of the centerboards.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I guess the question boils down to (for CB's),....If you take care of them on an annual basis, making it part of your boat work over the winter haul out, inspection, "alignment", cable, line or winch, are they really any more problematic than any other piece of sailboat gear, or part of the boat (ie. oil change, winterizing water lines, engine, taking care of sails........you all know the endless list of things to do.
Are CB's, when taken care of, just another "part"?
@Chef2sail:
I'm open to CBs for the reasons you mention and my question above stands to all CB'ers.
I was on a friends Pearson 34 just the other day and he explained, and it was right there in front of my eyes, on the port side of the cockpit, on the vertical "wall" under the seating area (like where some engine controls are), there was a cleat and no kidding, regular line, probably 7/16's, that came up from a slot and was simply cleated off. I notice some of the other CB boats had winch-like setups in various locations, cockpit, table in cabin, etc.

R


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

@chef2sail:
Noted above link and question about this boat. Do you know the answer about this keel?
"Here's one that has a 5'5" keel (That I noted in earlier page asking if this has an "unconventional" 5'5" keel. a C&C option keel, or something someone did through keel modification?).
1984 C&C Mark III 35 sailboat for sale in Michigan
1984 C&C Mark III 35 sailboat for sale in Michigan

Is that a Wing derivation, or something someone came up with on their own? It looks to clean, like a manufacturer would do, but how can I find out if you don't know? Can you (or I post this somewhere and find out without me reaching out the the owner/seller - until I'm ready to discuss all the specifics since I like this boat.
Thanks


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

You're seeing major differences in centerboard hardware because there are major differences in boats with a centerboard (no ballast) and a swing keel (lots of ballast) or weighted centerboard (somewhere in between).

My understanding is that swing keels are the ones that you really need to keep up with. Having a 1000lb or heavier centerboard swing down with no notice would be a major liability.

A lot of the larger boats with centerboard appear to be built with ballast in a shoal keel, then a centerboard that swings down to improve windward performance. That style of centerboard can be a lot lighter and require a lot less hardware to raise and lower.

I have no personal experience with this, I freak out if I'm sailing in less than 10' of water (almost never happens around Seattle).


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

C&C cb is one of the line led back from the mast to the cabin top winch. We have it through a Garhauer triple rope clutch so its a simple as winching in...throw the clutch. No need to tie off. Can't drop it down though, must be lowered with tension or the boat shudders as its weighted.



Robcooper0767 said:


> I guess the question boils down to (for CB's),....If you take care of them on an annual basis, making it part of your boat work over the winter haul out, inspection, "alignment", cable, line or winch, are they really any more problematic than any other piece of sailboat gear, or part of the boat (ie. oil change, winterizing water lines, engine, taking care of sails........you all know the endless list of things to do.
> Are CB's, when taken care of, just another "part"?
> @Chef2sail:
> I'm open to CBs for the reasons you mention and my question above stands to all CB'ers.
> ...


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

As to C&C hull being cored, most are not, just topside s are and many have reinforced areas of fiberglass thre equipment bedded like winches etc. my hull is not cored.



Robcooper0767 said:


> I guess the question boils down to (for CB's),....If you take care of them on an annual basis, making it part of your boat work over the winter haul out, inspection, "alignment", cable, line or winch, are they really any more problematic than any other piece of sailboat gear, or part of the boat (ie. oil change, winterizing water lines, engine, taking care of sails........you all know the endless list of things to do.
> Are CB's, when taken care of, just another "part"?
> @Chef2sail:
> I'm open to CBs for the reasons you mention and my question above stands to all CB'ers.
> ...


----------



## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

By chance...do you know Julie?


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*



Robcooper0767 said:


> @Dave,
> What year is your 35 MKIII?


1983.....btw the chain plates are very robust the are horizontal SS plates 8x6 under the deck ...bolted to o longitudinal SS plate 2ft x 6 inches straight down to the stringers bolted to another horizontal SS plate through the cabinetry glassed to the stringers. Standard standing rigging is rod which adds to the stiffness of the boat.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

In strong consideration are the Sabre 34 CB and the C&C 35 CB. I see a 37 (1985) in Newburyport, MA on Yachtworld that looks nice...CB boat. The newer 37-2's are probably out of range ($ wise), I like the 36 and 37 medium sized double (primary) windows in the cabin, also the 37 has the smaller ports up front in the vee (remind me of my Pearson) and that's a look I like. Also, like the dinette setup on the 35-3 (the large single window is noted to have leaking issues) and on the 36-1. It's interesting that the 35 and 35 are really 34.5 and 35.5, whereas, the 37 is 37.5, but has opposable settees (the more traditional interior on an early 80's boat). Noticed the one in Newburyport above modified the settee to be a partial wraparond and it looks nice (I've thought about doing this on a few traditional settee boats, like the Pearson 34 and possibily the Sabre MK1 to get that "comfortable corner" seating). The 37-2 (late 80's) is really 39.5 (aka 37/40).......who named these and what logic did they use....ha ha!
Yep, it all comes down to compromises and condition.....none of the C&C's are off the table, believe me.

I've got to note my interest in sailing fast - both up and downwind, that is part of the sailing fun for me. I do still enjoy going upwind much more than downwind.....it gets the blood going, bigger rush. Yes, the relaxing downwind run can be calming, and fast, but I like to work when I sail. I'm always tinkering, trimming, experimenting with the Geometry......doing the math and engineering to tame the elements - why I like to sail and not be a powerboater......(I do like to fish, another thread, another time!).....Now, I've never owned a powerful downwind sailboat, so it may be more fun than I realize, but I'll need to find that out.

The idea of "motorsailing" as my friend who has a very beautiful 30 footer with a large full keel (shoal - an Islander, I think) often does, is a last resort for me. I didn't get into sailing to motor around......I'd rather have a boat that can get the most out of the elements and be that family comfortable boat, hence, the thread.

I hear and have read the Sabre's are fast and can pace the C&C's, they are very well built and have a following that is almost rabid (that's good!). 34MK1's are much slower that 34MKII's, and now we are back to cost, the MKII's are probably above the $ threshold, I am definitely keeping Sabre's on the list, but can anyone shed light on the MKI's performance versus a C&C 35-3?, or the above mentioned 36/37's? Again, just for understanding and thoughts, I know what the PHRF's say for the CB's on C&C 35-3 (or even the 33-2 go go smaller) vs the Sabre 34 CB and it' not numerically close....A while ago the thread noted that 20 seconds is not huge, so don't worry about it. Also, I respect the notations that talk about experience and sail condition often trumps PHRF. Comments on Sabres vs C&C's in speed and comfort?
I know I'm looking at the "right boats" for what I want. You all are bringing up all the considerations I need to process to go out and see the ones that suit me. And, of course, in person can always result in a "nope - off the list".


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Rob, I'm a Sabre 34 MK1 owner, but I'm not rabid about it. In fact, as I've been following this thread, I've wondered if you'd be happy with a Sabre 34 MK1. 
From a space perspective for a family.

It's a pretty traditional layout with two opposing settees. I also happen to like a Dinette arrangement like I had on my Bristol 29 years ago. I've thought about it. But you'd lose a water tank to achieve that. The most comfortable berth on my Sabre is the pullout in the salon.

With the dining table dropped and open, you can't easily access the head forward. 
( most of my dining is done on deck, so it's not a real problem for me)

An aft head would be nice. To drop wet gear, and not have to walk through the salon.
The 362's and the 386 moved the head aft. There's not a full shower in the 34, rather the old sit on the seat...shower head on a hose style.

The Centerboard is not a problem. It's not weighted and I really don't need it until the wind pipes up on a beam reach or above. In 5-10 kn winds you'd probably not even bother with it.

Regarding speed. I don't race my boat, so I can't directly compare speed of a Sabre 34 vs a CC 35. But, I like to go fast and I don't, in practice, see many boats my size running away from me. I put new sails on a few years ago and I'm quite pleased with her performance. I personally see no need for a 150 genoa. I removed the old one and put on a 135. I also went to a loose footed main, which has helped light air performance.

You're more than welcome to come up for a sail...if you want to kick the tires, so to speak. I'm always happy to have company. We could even fly the gennaker.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Tempest,
I chuckled on your comment about not being "rabid"....I was trying to think of a nice way to say that Sabre really does have one of the most loyal followings around, but then I remember the comments from the CAL, C&C, Pearson, etc owners who all love and support their boats (as they should!). 
Yes, you've hit on the concerns of the traditional layout perfectly (don't understand the loss of water tank with Dinette comment since I don't know the Sabre setup....Can you explain that one? Does it apply to other Dinette boats (other manuafacturers) from that time period? 
Dining on the deck is what most do. The table will probably be used in the evenings or on long sails when the Mom and daughter get bored or need some coloring book time and the table gets pulled out (or puzzles, whatever).
I thought the MKII's moved the shower aft, but last night looked at sailboatdata.com and saw I was mistaken, obviously thinking about another manufacturer (one of them moved the head aft in a later 34' configuration I think, but since we've talked about so many boats, don't remember which one it was).
I do know that the MKII is supposed to be "faster" than the MKI, and I do appreciate your information on the MKI.....the idea of "boats my size running away from me" may move the MKI down a bit lower down, but not out as they are wonderfully made and known for outstanding quality, maintain their value....a good thing for a used boat.
I have to give it to Catalina, with the Dinette layout, the aft head (I mentioned the shortened salon that was visually challenging)....they seem to have a pretty darn good package, Pearson 33-2 and 34-2 have this layout too...it's nice but a dinette boat with a forward head is still ok. Funding may drive the very traditional setup, and I just live with it.
I'll keep you on my list of very nice persons who offered me the opportunity to sail on their boats - thank you.

I will not limit my thanks to only offers of sailing, I continually want to thank everyone for their help on this thread.
Rob


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Rob, re: the water tanks on my sabre; they are under each settee. Port and Starboard. So if one were to convert a settee to a dinette, you'd have to pull one of the water tanks and probably some of the cabintry behind. Not worth the effort and loss of water carriage imo.

re: speed. I meant to say that my sabre is no slug. I don't think you would be disappointed in her sailing performance at all. I do tend to shorten sail before some others, but then I think sailing flatter is faster... burying the rail, sailing on her ears may be exhilerating but doesn't get you there faster. That's one reason that I took the 150 genoa off. I can fully deploy the 135 more frequently in our avg. conditions.

I can't really speak to it's performance compared to a CC... maybe next time Chef is passing though NJ/NJ we can race to the statue..from Sandy Hook. ;-)

The build quality is generally excellent, but there are things that I thought Sabre could have done better, that could reveal themselves in older vessels that were not well maintained. In particular, I was surprised at the amount of raw untreated wood..bulkheads etc. My exterior and interior handrails are just screwed into the core and a likely source of any water intrusion. I took them off 3 years ago and dug out old core and re-filled with epoxy. The chainplates penetrate the deck at deck level and if not re-bedded can allow water penetration. On the other hand they did things like install Spartan Seacocks, which imo are almost bulletproof.

While I have not kept up with all the Catalina models, I think they have done a great job responding to the design criteria of the typical modern family cruiser..who desire a little more volume and creature comforts below. I see catalina's everywhere I go on the east coast doing just fine.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Tempest,
Thanks for clarifying....I must be getting old and need additional explanation 
but I've got it now. I really appreciate the added info on wood, handrails, etc...it's just all good to know and note it to look at (to the best of my ability) and for a professional surveyor.
Everyone agrees that these are really great boats and again, thanks for pointing out things I should think about. ie. the table down/access to head.

Funny, never thought of that issue, and as I look at the specs/drawings of boats I'm considering on sailboatdata.com, I realize that MOST of them, with table down, do not have ready access to the midships head. It's not a dealbreaker in anyway, really, but it's funny how you don't realize these things until your underway and it becomes painfully obvious when the table is set for 3 or 4 and someone needs to hit the head.......what a "ha ha" moment! And, why most of us eat in the cockpit anyway...it's usually prettier.
Right now, I'm trying to figure out, should this issue with my P30 be resolved in a timely manner and I start to visit prospective boats, how I do that when so many I see are in New England and Michigan (most of them are!)......


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Rob, So what I do when I have guests aboard is lower the table but not put the other half up and just set out a buffet "family style" and use 1/2 the table as a buffet table.

Then people serve themselves and sit where they want.. in the cockpit or down below. The chart table is often where I eat too. With the dining table only half out, access to the head is still maintained. So it's not the end of the world. Sometimes one or two of those little folding TV tables is handy to have around too. Stored behind the mast or in the wet locker.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I'm with you....I was doing that kind of math in my head when you first brought it up. It's definitely not the end of the world by any means.....the construction and other considerations of all "older" boats is really what I'll be focusing on. I must admit, the Tartan 37 still has my eye...it's just so pretty  - probably priced out of my reach, but we'll see.
So many nice boats, If this happens, I'm sure I'll be happy with any of the ones we've all discussed, and when I go look at them, I'll focus my discussion on the particulars of the one I'm considering and have folks tell me more on the specific manufacturer/model ....
Best way ahead I think.
I'll also take a few of the folks up (you too) on their sailing offers if I can find time, to get firsthand....but, as smart as that would be, it's probably a scheduling nightmare for all...


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Well Rob, I don't know where in Maryland you are, but I've got two weeks off before the semester starts on Sept 3rd. And I'm sailing everyday. ( except today..there was zero wind, so I took the dinghy out for a spin )

After Sept 3 I only work 3 days a week and will sail until November. So come on up. You're welcome to stay on the boat. I live close to the marina.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Tempest,
Thanks very much for the offer. We are heading to Maine and Mass for vacation this Saturday and will be back on 06 Sep. I'll check with the Admiral and see if I can sneak up there....and thanks again for the offer..
Rob


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Your Sabre is a great boat. Certainly can keep up with our C&C BUT I do carry a 150 and have a K/ cb



Tempest said:


> Rob, re: the water tanks on my sabre; they are
> 
> under each settee. Port and Starboard. So if one were to convert a settee to a dinette, you'd have to pull one of the water tanks and probably some of the cabintry behind. Not worth the effort and loss of water carriage imo.
> 
> ...


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

MODIFIED: (THANKS JIM) 
Didn't mean to leave the impression I've necked down to only Pearson's....but looking for some Pearson-related feedback.

I've been away for awhile, vacation and getting back to work has been bustin' my butt..... I'm leaning to staying with Pearson since they are a good quality and price compromise........but still looking and considering many. Still considering Sabre 34 MKI's but price is questionable. Tartan's, love them but, too expensive I think.

. I have my eyes on a couple of Pearson's that may still be too far outside the budget, but that said, input on the following would be a great help.

So, regarding Pearson's.....The 33-2, nice boat. Has a CB on the one I'd be interested in, but note maintenance on CBs, but still like the CB for the draft. Problem: the ones I'm finding are no where local (see cost issues under P-34 next,

P-34 (1983-1986) CB still is my favorite, even if she has a not so great looking rear end.....hey, I like a nice rear on boats and women  The boat overall, it just looks bigger, and has such a great cockpit (huge), seems that it would be comfortable when you have folks onboard. It's the "older deckhouse look, not as sleek, but a roomy deck too.

Problem......P-34 CBs are in Michigan and Texas (what I've found)..requires transport to Maryland and that's probably up around $5k or so added to the price, not to mention on site (airplane ride) inspection and survey. P33-2's are not so far, but still have extra costs.

These boats are in the $30's, and with added costs, might be too high for me to make it.

P31-2 has come into the mix a bit more. It's basically, when you look at it's layout, size and specs, a smaller P-34 (1983-86) with a narrower rear end.

Wing keel is only shallow option, fin is 5'8", so it's more than I probably want (would like it, but the draft issue does play big role).

Finding more 31-2's that might be in more affordable ranges.

What's the consensus on the P31-2? with wing keel. Understand they can have wet deck issues, and to look for hull to keel joint issues. Overall, a good boat (it is a Pearson, so I'm thinking yes)? Seen some say the price with 33-2 and 31-2 are close, so go bigger....couldn't agree more, but if I can get a good 31-2 for less, what's the group think

31-2, 33-2, P-34 (1983-1986) owners and experience with these.....chime in alot please!

Thanks

Rob


----------



## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Rob,
You might ask that as a new question. I think you'd be more likely to get comments from those owners.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Thanks Jim,


----------



## daledog (Oct 16, 2009)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Wing keels? Not for me. If you sail, you eventually go aground. Wing keels aren't fun in mud. As for draft, use your depth finder and charts...it's no problem...you just have to stay more aware. But really, consider you draw either 3'6" or 6', in 7' of water either way you'd better pay attention. I've always sailed fins. Love the way they point and turn. I had a Cal 9.2 that drew 5'7", and it turned like it was on a lazy susan.

About NC, better spend some time there to see if you like the a.heat b. mosquitos c.the...culture (do you have diverse culinary tastes? good luck finding...oh...hummas?). And (I lived in Oriental for 2+years) on the Chesapeake there are endless destinations. On the Pamlico? nothing. Ocracoke is great but mot an easy trip, and once there you can be stuck for days by weather. Other than Ocracoke, really not much. Yeah Oriental is cute, but nothing there. New Bern is cute, but WAAAY up the river. Lotta crab docks tho....

And the Tartan is about ready! I've decided to shave the bottom. Varying opinions on the necessity, but I'm OCD and want her to be a jewel....


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I'm with you on fins, but the boats I like are 5'11" fins and that is too long for Upper Ches. I checked with Tidewater in Havre de Grace, just to see what they thought. They have all under 5'6" and the only 6' draft basically never goes out, or so rarely due to requirement to come and go at a high enough depth.
I'm concerned about that NC issue of "not much to see when sailing". I'm ok with the other issues you note, one reason we are looking there. But, I keep noting to the wife that Tidewater VA is still in the lead for me. We looked at 33 houses there (drive-by's) all around the Norfolk area, from Toano north and in a large (more rural/suburban) circular route, Smithfield, Chesapeake, Moyock (NC), over to Pungo, and up to Gloucester. If I can stay off the Peninsula Traffic and find good schools, that area has Chesapeake, James, York, Atlantic Ocean, and many Bays (Mobjack, etc.) to explore and stay. I lived in North San Diego County, in Carlsbad, CA and sailed out of Camp Pendleton/Oceanside.....same thing as NC, out in the Ocean, around here and there, parallel to the shore, never really seeing anything but the same, basic shoreline.....very boring.
The Sabre 34 MkI has 5'6" fin, but prices can be higher than later Pearson's, and they don't look any different than a Pearson. I also read somewhere they used wood in places that can be prone to rot and you need to watch for that. The MKI's are in the high $20's and 30's, and probably compare to the Pearson 34's (5'11" fin are faster, and the P-34 CBs are no slouch either, in similar design/layout.
Any thoughts on the 1983-1986 P-34 vs the later (newer design P31-2 or P33-2's?)
thanks for the info.

Rob


----------



## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*



Robcooper0767 said:


> I'm with you on fins, but the boats I like are 5'11" fins and that is too long for Upper Ches. I checked with Tidewater in Havre de Grace, just to see what they thought. They have all under 5'6" and the only 6' draft basically never goes out, or so rarely due to requirement to come and go at a high enough depth.


My 5'11" fin visited Havre de Grace this summer without problem. So there are two data points (coming and going) that may or may not have happened at high tide (no idea). Must be OK.


----------



## Dick6969 (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Look at the Pearson 323. Has 4.5 draft, Plenty of room in the **** pit 8', Lots of room inside and very sea friendly.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I saw a Hunter Legend 37.5 and a 35.5 and, boy, were they nice inside....that said, I read alot about how bad Hunter's are (McDonalds of sailboats, flexing decks, etc according to the detractors). Any ground truth? A 1991 Hunter 35.5 Legend is a true 35.5 ft boat and (on the surface) alot of boat, good turn of speed, nicely done interior, for about the same price as a Pearson 33-2 (that is really a 32ft boat).
Problem 7/8ths Fractional versus Masthead (but at least not a full fractional). 
Is it even worth considering.....at all? Are they really worse than Catalina's (according to some) 
I would still love a Tartan 37-2 but I don't happen to have the extra $40,000 laying around.
R

Am looking at a couple of 33-2's and still have an eye on a P34.... I have to say, the Hunter interior makes these boats look bad....so, I'm looking at both aspects....SAILING still wins, believe me, but what you get and the dollars you spend DO matter.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I'll tell you what I've read, and I'm sure you've heard most of this..........When you search for Hunter info, holy man! People just really crap all over them. One thing I read that did puzzle me was a guy who said he was on a Legend, and "what a nice boat", but when he was trying to plot a course on the Chart table with the GPS, he had a very hard time reading the GPS because it was bouncing around from the deck flexing....

I saw a 35.5 Legend in Deltaville, VA,

1991 Hunter 35.5 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

not terribly far away from me at a reasonable price. Not sure why the guy moved the furler outboard of the well where it was designed (heard that the lines that go inside the deck to feed the furler can cause deck moisture issues so maybe that's it?) He also noted it's set up as a cruiser, and not sure what that means....may call on Monday?)

also, same price but farther away (1990 Hunter Legend 35.5 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com) with normal furler in anchor locker)

They are a little higher priced than I want, but everything is negotiable (I never would pay asking price, who would!)

Don't want to call and waste anyone's time, so have to consider.

To compare, here's a P-33-2 I like, just a few k less, but smaller boat....Nice looking, not as roomy inside or with the larger cockpit....but, other than possible deck moisture on stanchion bases (Pearson curse) and potential around toe rail (on the later Pearson designs)., This is a nice boat too.

1986 Pearson 33-2 sailboat for sale in New York

Last, but not least, looking at this one in Michigan, P-34 CB

1986 Pearson 33-2 sailboat for sale in New York

And, this older MKI Sabre 34 C/B

1983 Sabre 34 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

The Sabre and P-34 are very traditional interiors and frankly, exteriors too (kind of dated look, but great boats)

The Hunter and P-33-2 are defintely the newer look.

Comments?


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

A few random thoughts on your last couple of emails:

Furler lines run inside the deck: Sounds like a major hassle to debug and handle when things go wrong. They rarely go wrong when you want them to.

Pearson (85+) dampness: The toe rail will show up as damp with a moisture meter, but there is no wood core there to get damp, the side of the deck and hull are solid fiberglass. The moisture is from dirt getting into the hollow under the teak toe rail, the hollow is there to clear the deck/hull join screws. The mud and dirt that lives under there can at worse rot out the teak rail.

The stanchions on my 1986 Pearson were better bedded (with counterboring) than they are on most boats. They do use rubber gaskets that look like a terrible idea, but there was plenty of bedding compound besides those. I don't know for sure that they were never rebedded on my boat, but there is no evidence of it.

If you are measuring half feet you should call the Pearson 33-2 a 32.5 boat. 3' is still a big difference.

Quoting this one: "They are a little higher priced than I want, but everything is negotiable (I never would pay asking price, who would!)"

I've paid asking price on one boat that was listed for a very fair price, and have sold one boat at asking price because the buyer thought it was a very fair price.


----------



## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I agree with Alex regarding asking/selling prices. If I listed a pristine 2012 Catalina 30 at $4,000, would you try to negotiate?


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

OK, OK!! I give up  Good points both of you, seriously. and Alex, your information on the moisture/toe rail is priceless.....this is the first I've seen/heard it explained that way and that makes my looking a whole lot easier for that boat. I hope I can afford the 33-2, but not sure if I can. The 31-2 (according to threads, did have a bigger moisture problem, as I noted the one I looked at in Havre de Grace, MD has moisture 8-10" in from the toe rail. 
@Alex - Is that still the joint and mud/dirt, or do the 31-2's have a bigger problem?
@Jim - ok....I get it.
The question is: What is a P33-2, a P31-2, P34 and Sabre 34 CB (MkI) really going to sell for if they are all in "good" condition. Prices are all over the map, and in some cases (personal experience here) we price things where we would like them to be, not what they really should be.
Price ranges, that is "purchase prices" for those boats in good condition?
Thanks


----------



## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Rob,
Check NADA and BoatUS. Both should give you average selling prices for boats in average condition. Then you can adjust up or down based in the specifics of the boat in question. For example, If the engine was just rebuilt, that's worth something (maybe $2-4000). By contrast, if the jib and main are rotten or torn beyond repair, I'd knock off $1000-1500.

That strategy at least gives you a rational basis for an offer, rather than just going based on asking price.


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

The toe rail holds mud directly under the rail. That teak toe rail has a 1/4" deep concave cut under it that holds dirt/mud. The plastic cover that wraps around the hull deck joint under the toe rail is about 1.5" to 2" wide and can also hold dirt, but not as much of it. It won't cause high moisture readings 8-10" in from the toe rail, that would be cause for concern. I don't know how accurate these moisture meters are though, how fine of a line do they really find?

I don't see how the Pearson stanchion installation would be more or less likely to cause deck dampness than any other boat in this price range though. As far as I know no manufacturers in this price range were glassing around the core in all deck holes.

I have no specific knowledge of the 31-2, I've just taken apart my 28-2 and inferred from photos online than the 31-2 and 33-2 and most other mid-80s Pearsons were assembled the same way (outward facing flange, lower trim that you remove with phillips screws, larger #14 screws holding teak toe rain, then 5/16" machine screws on roughly 6" centers holding the deck to the hull). If you search my recent posts I made one with photos in it showing how it is assembled.

What's the right price takes research and introspection. Don't just look at the same boat, look at what you'd get for similar prices on similar boats in a similar market. If you have preferences towards one boats layout or other features then consider that in your offer.

As an example of a personal preference: I had a strong preference for the <30' overall length of the Pearson 28-2 because moorage rates at my marina jump by 20% when going from a 30' slip to a 34' slip, and my marina includes bow pulpit and anchor in overall length. The slightly shorter length (29.5 including bow pulpit) of the 28-2 made it $1000/year less in moorage fees compared to 30' boats (C&C 30, Islander 30, CS 30) that I was interested in while the boat had similar PHRF and an interior layout that I preferred. Someone keeping a boat on a mooring ball wouldn't have this concern. As a result I was okay spending a little more on this boat than the others (through it was only slightly more expensive than the C&C 30, and less than the CS 30). I didn't like the lack of a quarterberth in the C&C 30, and my wife didn't like some recent interior upgrades on it, so we would have made a much lower offer on that boat.

How I came up with a price: I felt like that by looking at enough 30' boats and talking to other friends who had recently been in the market that I had a pretty good understanding of what I should offer. I couldn't make many direct purchase comparisons, my boat is not at all common on the west coast, and prices on the east coast appear to have little in common with prices over here. I thought my seller's asking price was pretty good if the boat had an autopilot and a newer plotter. It had neither and a few small things came up in the survey. I bought it for about 10% under his asking price, which covered the survey issues and missing autopilot and most of a new GPS.

Direct comparisons are hard to make anyway, even for the same model. We're talking about boats that are almost 30 years old, and it's unlikely that any 2 of them have been maintained and upgraded exactly the same way. I personally don't find NADA estimates to be very useful, especially on the smaller size boats that I've owned.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Thanks Jim,
I wasn't aware that these were available.
Cheers


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Alex,
Again, you have given me good info, especially since I do have a preference for Pearson's. The one boat in question had the moisture meter "almost pegged" to the right side of the meter for that full 8-10 (and sometimes 12") out from the edge. The broker seemed to be pretty on the level, and said the boat had acknowledged moisture issues, but "you could probably get 10 years out of it before you had to replace the core/face delamination".. I did ask the guy who re-Awlgripped my P-30 and is a certified repair guy, and he said, "don't even think about it"......so that, and the rest of the info, lead me to start asking the more specific questions of "how bad is bad"......or "what is "bad"". That boat was otherwise really well cared for and owned by the same couple (70's/80's) who are retiring from sailing due to age. but the deck issue was the finality on that specific boat.

All, I guess my pricing erspective was influenced by a conversation I had with Bill Shaw, Jr (yes, his son) about 1 1/2 months ago. He is a broker out of Rhode Island and my understanding of his boat offer comment was 30% of asking price is a good starting point (40% if you want), and many boats will sell for that, especially in this economy......I don't want to have Bill get any backlash, but that's what I noted he said......of course, it can also be personal situation dependent too..
So, I'm thinking I can get a nice boat, that's listed in the 30's for in the 20's, but maybe I'm just dreamin' and it's not that way at all. So, that's why I'm asking so many price questions.
Acknowledged: Condition, equipment, all good points.

Question: Never have owned a diesel. Overall, What is considered low, medium, and high hours? A 33-2 in Mystic (sold) had, no kidding 11,320 hours, and they lowered the asking price about $3,500 for a rebuild, but said the engine ran excellent.
I know diesels can keep going "forever", but where does the knee in the curve start for "high", generally speaking.
Also read motor mounts on 33-2 can go bad and need replacement, any gouge on how to know about that?


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

I happened to read the top of this page and noted that you appear to be moving to a better sailing climate. You considered as far away as California. If you are considering that you might as well consider the Pacific NW. We have no skinny water issues, an inland water system that is as large as the Chesapeake with world class cruising destinations, and great year round sailing with pretty mild temps summer and winter. The wildlife is wonderful here too, just outside of Shilshole Marina (in Seattle) I see porpoises, seals, and sea lions on almost every sail, Orca whales a few times a year, and the salmon have been jumping like crazy for the last few months. It's a bit damp in the winter, but warm enough in good foulies. I don't know anyone who pulls their boat here for the winter.

Moisture: It sounds like that boat does have problems. I wouldn't buy a boat that had moisture issues along the whole deck. At the same time I wouldn't say that it is an endemic issue among Pearsons. I've read other stories of moisture issues just under the toe rail being common on Pearsons, and can explain why that happens.

Diesel: I don't know on engine hours. My engine (stock engine in Pearson 28-2) didn't even come with an hour meter, which made me suspect of meters on other boats with the same engine (Yanmar 2GM20F) which did have them since the meters apparently aren't stock. I could add an engine meter today that claimed my boat had 1000 hours, and that would just be a lie. None of the boats that I looked at had engine meters higher than about 3000 hours.

One way that I can think of it is that 10,000 miles per year on a car is about 350 engine hours at average car speeds of just under 30mph. I wouldn't be excited about the engine a car that had done 323,000 miles in a car (about the equivalent of your 11,320 hours). On the other hand such a boat probably has rigging in amazing shape because it sounds like it was almost never sailed (or the overall boat is extremely tired because it was sailed and cruised every single day). I cruised for 7 weeks this summer and used my boat at least once a week the rest of the year and still put under 200 hours on the engine this year (measured by keeping track of fuel consumed).

Replacing engine mounts on a Yanmar isn't that major of a project. The engine mounts themselves are silly expensive ($100+ ea if I remember correctly). You need to support the engine while removing the old and installing the new ones, then realign the shaft. The engine mount is made with two steel plates that are bonded to a rubber elasometer in the middle. That rubber eventually dries out and fails. A friend with a 1987 boat and Yanmar 3GM30F just replaced his. I have a 1986 2GM20F, don't know if mine are original or not, but they are appear to be in good shape.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Alex.
Moved from Carlsbad, CA three years ago after being there, and working in San Diego for 8 years. Sailed out of Oceanside or San Diego Harbor. The Admiral was stationed in Bremerton for 4 years, and (before I knew her), I travelled often to Seattle on Navy business. Lovely area, brother-in-law and family in Portland, OR area.........a bit to wet for us I think 
Thanks for all the info on the Engine, Moisture, etc. I just had the Broker take me on-board the boat so I could see the interior. Similar feel to the P-30 in "elbow room", but definitely a modern layout, I like it.
Still want to focus on 33-2 and P34, but cash may prevent it, so 31-2 is a very comfortable option. It's just the idea of going from 30' to 30' (albeit much more modern) that keeps me holding on that concept.
Keep in touch on your info and the thread.......you have alot of info that I'm finding most helpful.
Cheers


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Went and looked at a Sabre 34 MKI today in Annapolis. Very nice boat, but I don't think it hit the "love it" button after being on a Pearson 34 (83-86) not the 34-2. Nicely made, that's obvious, but felt almost the same size and layout as my P30. P30 beam is 9.5' and the Sabre is 10.5, but the benches looked smaller. This one had a suspicious bow that had a redone painted on non-skid (looked like Interlux) on the entire bow, and the rest of the non-skid was the diamond pattern. The bow felt "soft and squeaked", so think it's moist. Boat has been on the hard for 3 years. I'm sure it would be nice, but since it didn't seem much different from the P30, don't see the reason to change to the Sabre MKI if it doesn't feel much different (and this one had a redone floor/core, bilge was nasty/oily, and the windows obviously leaked (big stains, that were brownish from the obvious re-do of the teak (stained or sanded bare, but not sealed......they said). You'd think you would at least want it to show better if you were selling it.
Contacted the surveyor who did the survey on the Michigan P34 CB 2 years ago. Also called about the Baltimore P34 (5'11" fin) just because it's close by and maybe I can get on it while the Sabre 34 memory is fresh and really compare the "feel".
I'd like to get on board a P33-2 and compare the feel of that one too.
@Mr. F - since you have a 5'11 fin (or 5'9) and I can't go that high, would you still be willing to let me come visit and get a feel? 
Found out the marina I'm at (behind the RR bridge in Perryville, MD) will have a limit, on average, of 50' air from DWL. It was a very low tide yesterday and the bridge had 53-54' of clearance.
Problem: Pearson 34 is 48.75' (add 3' antenna)=51.75'; Sabre is about 50' with antenna, so is P33-2 give or take.
That means I am limited to low tide departures and arrivals - and I absolutely don't want to have to work around that again. Where I was last year, I couldn't sail on low tide with 5' draft. Now, it might be different marina and RR bridge. One reason I like the CBs is the draft, so may have to go back to last years marina (no height issues).
These limiters really mess up my sailing time, since I have to go when I can (driven by a 4 year old and her schedule!) and work.
Still waiting for the Insurance turkeys.


----------



## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

Yes. Definitely. Come on by. I will PM you to coordinate.


----------



## Robcooper0767 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"*

PM'ed and thanks!


----------

