# Anything-Sailing Forum Down?



## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Or is it just me?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

It's been dead for quite a while now from I understand. It was kind of inevitable.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> It's been dead for quite a while now...


No, I've been there fairly recently.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I don't mean to kick A-S while they're down, but; as one of the early members there, I found that the environment on SailNet was much more positive. I therefore chose not to contribute to the discussions on A-S. I suspect that I am not alone.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Fstbttms said:


> No, I've been there fairly recently.


I just mean it's been dead as an "active" forum for quite a while now.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> I just mean it's been dead as an "active" forum for quite a while now.


That's for sure.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Unfortunately as noted, good idea, but some bad ,hoi,es at beginning, made a number of us leave sooner than later.
Hopefully it will do better.....but
Marry


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> I don't mean to kick A-S while they're down, but; as one of the early members there, I found that the environment on SailNet was much more positive. I therefore chose not to contribute to the discussions on A-S. I suspect that I am not alone.


You're not alone.. it's been years since I last visited.

Poor Chris put a lot of work into that site, keeping it running... he backed the wrong horse, I guess.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Classic30 said:


> Poor Chris put a lot of work into that site, keeping it running... he backed the wrong horse, I guess.


That's the truth. Chris is a great, great guy. I hope he comes back here at some point.


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

I tried that site at it's early stages and wanted to like it but the tone was just not for me. After giving it a break I went back a year later and it was just dead as far as activity. I can only read so much about one guy racing his very nice custom boat. At that point I decided it was a blog and not really a forum.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

I was able to log on to Anything-Sailing.com today. So it is still up and running.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Yes, it is seemingly back up and running. Not a lot of activity though the pics of Alex's much revised Giulietta are pretty interesting.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> Yes, it is seemingly back up and running. Not a lot of activity though the pics of Alex's much revised Giulietta are pretty interesting.


No.. don't tempt me!  

The old _Giulietta_ was interesting and I'm sure the new one is interesting also.. but the past is the past and IMHO that's where A-S (and Alex's insults) belong.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Classic30 said:


> No.. don't tempt me!
> 
> The old _Giulietta_ was interesting and I'm sure the new one is interesting also.. but the past is the past and IMHO that's where A-S (and Alex's insults) belong.


Old and New in inverted commas C. Old boat new arse.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> Old and New in inverted commas C. Old boat new arse.


Hmm.. I, for one, have never been particularly interested in Alex's arse. :wink :grin


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I took a look. It seems like it's seriously whacked from a code perspective. Clicking on New Posts then the Last 24 hours brings up a lot of errors and busted code. Oh well...at least I can order the 2014 Calendar. Heh-heh.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> I took a look. It seems like it's seriously whacked from a code perspective. Clicking on New Posts then the Last 24 hours brings up a lot of errors and busted code. Oh well...at least I can order the 2014 Calendar. Heh-heh.


What, no burgees?? Them waz the days.. 










Havta admit though, they put a very nice mast on them Malo's...


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

So did Alex spend money on the old one? or literally get a new boat?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Classic30 said:


> What, no burgees?? Them waz the days..
> Havta admit though, they put a very nice mast on them Malo's...


Indeed they do. :laugh I'd forgotten that they threw some sponsorship at us for that race. Good times.



blt2ski said:


> So did Alex spend money on the old one? or literally get a new boat?


Old one. I had a look at a recent post the other day and it seems that he sent G back to the yard where she was built and had the stern rebuilt but it doesn't look like a completely new boat. She's been entered in the Rolex MSR and this is the final (?) stage of converting her from cruiser/racer to pure racer.

Yes I know he can be a cantankerous old bugger and has behaved poorly at times but he was always friendly towards me, exceptionally hospitable when I visited Lisbon and that boat was a hell of a lot of fun to sail.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Just for kicks I tried to log in to AS. It appears I'm still banned.

Heh-heh.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

smackdaddy said:


> Just for kicks I tried to log in to AS. It appears I'm still banned.
> 
> Heh-heh.


I recall banning meself after a confrontation with one of the old mods, from there and here.....whiner that he is.......Altho I think I can still log in etc. I got a happy b-day email card last year. may get one in 3 weeks.......

Interesting about boat. Wonder if the mrs is happy about this predicament or option......

Marty


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> I recall banning meself after a confrontation with one of the old mods, from there and here.....whiner that he is.......Altho I think I can still log in etc. I got a happy b-day email card last year. may get one in 3 weeks.......
> 
> Interesting about boat. Wonder if the mrs is happy about this predicament or option......
> 
> Marty


The irony is Marty that presuming we are talking about the same person he ended up getting himself banned from A_S or at least he stormed off. While AS didn't implode to quite the same extent as that other nutters site it did suffer something of a mass reduction in contributing members. Hell, even Dan the SD and Alchemy ran away. Shame that Mark didn't come back here. I always enjoyed his contributions. I believe he's a regular over at CF these days. Our loss, their gain. No idea what happened to SD. I did read a bit of his blog some time back and it was, to say the least somewhat worrying.

Anywho ....

G's new arse ...










I'm sure this is the original boat. Alex's posts do read as if it was a rebuild.










J looks pretty happy to me.










Cheers mate.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Andrew,

We are probably thinking of different folks......Cam/George was the one I were thinking of. Bit of a ******* he were.......

Dan, not sure what to say there. He could be a bit of an asshat, but I do in all honesty believe his heart was in the right place. Tween a spouse cancer death, boat going up in flames..........Do hope he is doing ok.........

Alchemy/Mark......did he not ever take off on a world jaunt in the big metal boat? hopefully he did, and will not die a dreamer.......

Marty


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> Andrew,
> 
> We are probably thinking of different folks......Cam/George was the one I were thinking of. Bit of a ******* he were.......
> 
> ...


Yes it was Cam I was referring to. I'm not sure if he managed to get himself banned from AS but he and Alex did have a major falling out. Other than on matters political we seemed to get on pretty well. I've "spoken" with him a few times over the years but nothing regular. Have no idea what he is up to these days. Same goes for my old sparring partner Sailaway21. He was another ex Sailnutter who went A-Sailing but had a falling out with Alex. They both thought I was a card carrying commie. :laugh

Dan, yep. I'd have to agree with you but he was somewhat obsessive. Had a lot of bad things happen to him I know and I too hope he is OK though the tone (if that's the right word) of his blog when I last looked was odd, to say the least.

I'm not a regular CFer so I'm not sure as to his current circumstances but last time I looked Mark (Alchemy) was getting on with it though he hadn't departed. Maybe Mark (Sealife Mark i.e.) knows a bit more.

I'm not trying to dump on anyone btw. Lots of good people have come and gone since I first signed up, lots of good people still here. It's the loss of the gooduns that is cause for regret.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

I learn't a lot from Alex about sailing. You can say what you want about his online persona but the guy can sail. 

Here on SN wearing his clown hat rather than his Mod hat he was also pretty entertaining back in the day.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

chall03 said:


> I learn't a lot from Alex about sailing. You can say what you want about his online persona but the guy can sail.
> 
> Here on SN wearing his clown hat rather than his Mod hat he was also pretty entertaining back in the day.


Oh yes, an absolute master. I've sailed with a few people who were in the same league but none better. He had an ability to read the boat that quite frankly I can only dream about. In person an absolute gentleman.

He wasn't ever a mod here btw, but yeah, when he wore it over at AS the end result was a bit iffy.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

tdw said:


> He wasn't ever a mod here btw, but yeah, when he wore it over at AS the end result was a bit iffy.


Wasn't suggesting he was - sorry I was a bit unclear.

But yeah SN Alex was a hoot. I would like to imagine a time he may come back here again, unlikely perhaps but he was a good contributor.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> I learn't a lot from Alex about sailing. You can say what you want about his online persona but the guy can sail.
> 
> Here on SN wearing his clown hat rather than his Mod hat he was also pretty entertaining back in the day.


Agreed. He was a much better clown than owner/moderator of a forum. Dude was funny as hell.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

chall03 said:


> Wasn't suggesting he was - sorry I was a bit unclear.
> 
> But yeah SN Alex was a hoot. I would like to imagine a time he may come back here again, unlikely perhaps but he was a good contributor.


Thought as much, no probs, just being clear about it.

Snowballs chance in hell but yes, it would be nice to have him back. Would certainly liven the place up a bit.



smackdaddy said:


> Agreed. He was a much better clown than owner/moderator of a forum. Dude was funny as hell.


That he was Steve, that he was.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Interesting watching many of you taking judgemental positions or pronouncements on others like Giu, Cam , SD etc. in this thread. SO Its ok to speak about others negatively in a SN forum. To what end or how does that enrich the sailing experience speaking detrimental about others who are real sailors. 

Like living in a glass house on top of the hill isn't it. Your perch may be high, but throwing stones in a glass house.... ( we all know he that parabole goes) 

Actually I long for the days some of my old friends you speak of were here on SN to keep some of you in check. Seems like if you have a differing opinion than the enforcers on SN , ridicule is the repercussion of choice. That's why you have lost many older good people 
That As well as selling out to corporate pressures (sponsors) like Tartan and Mantus , has reduced SN credibility and trust.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

chef2sail said:


> Interesting watching many of you taking judgemental positions or pronouncements on others like Giu, Cam , SD etc. in this thread. SO Its ok to speak about others negatively in a SN forum. To what end or how does that enrich the sailing experience speaking detrimental about others who are real sailors.
> 
> Like living in a glass house on top of the hill isn't it. Your perch may be high, but throwing stones in a glass house.... ( we all know he that parabole goes)
> 
> ...


I'm sorry if anything I've said has been taken as dumping on others. It was certainly not intended as such. I thought I'd made it quite clear that there was no animosity from my end. All those I've mentioned (Alex, Cam, SDog, Sway, Alchemy) departed these shores of their own volition, none of them were forced out, all of them would be welcome to return.

The Tartan fiasco was just that. It should never have happened and the decision made to give that discussion the chop was not made by any of the moderators, at least as far as I am aware, it was a decision forced on the board by the former owners. Now I wasn't a moderator at the time but as far as I am aware it was not kowtowing to sponsors as much as being frightened off by the possibility of the legal bills after the Tartan management issued legal threats. While I understand the why I most certainly do not and did not at the time agree with the doing.

Not sure what you mean about Mantus.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

chef2sail said:


> Interesting watching many of you taking judgemental positions or pronouncements on others like Giu, Cam , SD etc. in this thread. SO Its ok to speak about others negatively in a SN forum. To what end or how does that enrich the sailing experience speaking detrimental about others who are real sailors.
> 
> Like living in a glass house on top of the hill isn't it. Your perch may be high, but throwing stones in a glass house.... ( we all know he that parabole goes)
> 
> ...


I have a spare Mantus bottle opener I can send you if you want


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Chef, 
One other thing. I consider this thread to be legitimately Sailing oriented. If I thought that anyone was slandering others, be they active member or not I would be telling folk to pull their heads in. If it became utterly non sailing oriented I'd move it to Off Topic. Right now I think it has been quite civil. Discussing folk be they active or not is not in my opinion breaking the rules nay not even breaking the spirit of the rules. Slandering someone on the other hand is out of order and will not be tolerated. I know it is a fine line, judging when that line has been crossed is one of the myriad joys of modding. So, I do see where you are coming from but thus far my thinking is that all is appropriate.
Cheers.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Actually I long for the days some of my old friends you speak of were here on SN to keep some of you in check. Seems like if you have a differing opinion than the enforcers on SN , ridicule is the repercussion of choice. That's why you have lost many older good people.


Delicious.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

tdw said:


> Chef,
> One other thing. I consider this thread to be legitimately Sailing oriented. If I thought that anyone was slandering others, be they active member or not I would be telling folk to pull their heads in. If it became utterly non sailing oriented I'd move it to Off Topic. Right now I think it has been quite civil. Discussing folk be they active or not is not in my opinion breaking the rules nay not even breaking the spirit of the rules. Slandering someone on the other hand is out of order and will not be tolerated. I know it is a fine line, judging when that line has been crossed is one of the myriad joys of modding. So, I do see where you are coming from but thus far my thinking is that all is appropriate.
> Cheers.


I actually thought there was as much good being said as bad.....

As for discussing AS - I don't think it's about bashing Alex. I think there are many here who had high hopes and are quite sad it didn't become what everyone wanted.

I certainly am, I still have my burgee.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> G's new arse ...


Looks smart, but nothing special. Sterns like that have been de rigeur in the racing fraternity around here for many years now. eg. Here's a pic of 'Living Doll' from 2010:










and there are plenty more yachts like it ("Envy" being another) - and the entire Sydney38 class has a less extreme version of the same thing.

I don't remember seeing that logo before though.. very snappy indeed. 



tdw said:


> J looks pretty happy to me.


She does indeed. although I do wonder if the kids are regular crew now - or if they've run away to do their own things?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Classic30 said:


> Looks smart, but nothing special. Sterns like that have been de rigeur in the racing fraternity around here for many years now. eg. Here's a pic of 'Living Doll' from 2010 and there are plenty more yachts it:
> 
> I don't remember seeing that logo before though.. very snappy indeed.
> 
> She does indeed. although I do wonder if the kids are regular crew now - or if they've run away to do their own things?


True that similar sterns are now quite common but an improvement on the original nonetheless. She is after all part of a relatively small time operation most of which has been funded by Alex and his family. Will be interesting to see how she goes out on the track.

As far as I'm aware the older of the two is part of the crew, I'm not sure if the younger lad would be old enough yet.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

It kind of looks like an older Open 40. But without the chine like _Living Doll_, I wonder how stable it is on a tear?


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> It kind of looks like an older Open 40. But without the chine like _Living Doll_, I wonder how stable it is on a tear?


No idea... but unlike others of this class ISTM she's designed to sail on her side, which, IIRC, always was G's favourite point of sail... being as proud of his bottom as his posterior.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Uh-oh. Looks like it's REALLY down now. Maybe I blew it up when I tried to login.

My bad.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Exactly


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Exactly


Hey, I was just trying to provide some invaluable insight on sailing _anything_.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Fstbttms said:


> Or is it just me?


I guess that he found out that sailing and racing was more fun. Giulietta, his boat, is heading, among storms, to one of the more interesting med races, the big classic Middle Sea race, raced around Malta. Only to get there from Portugal will be a lot of hard work and the race itself is one of the toughest around. Look only at the last edition:




I hope he posts some videos


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Paulo if you can convince him to come back on here and share some of the videos that would be fantastic.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Classic30 said:


> Looks smart, but nothing special. Sterns like that have been de rigeur in the racing fraternity around here for many years now. eg. Here's a pic of 'Living Doll' from 2010:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes there is a lot of modern recent designs with a stern like it but living doll is not one of them:


That type of stern started to be used years ago by Ker and he still uses it. Look at the Ker 40:












It is not the type of transom I would chose for cruising or even for Ocean racing but ideal for regatta racing with a crew.

What makes Giulietta special is its very comfy cruising interior on a top hull. We could compare it with the new Sydney 43 (Ker designed and a very recent design), they have the same type of hull, but the Sydney is miles away in what refers the quality of the interior.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

chall03 said:


> Paulo if you can convince him to come back on here and share some of the videos that would be fantastic.


Fact is that I am not the right person to do that. Probably you know him better, I had just exchanged some personal emails with him and I do not know him personally: While he is involved here on the racing scene I am always cruising out of Portugal so we never meet on the water.

I had participated on his forum for a while, but as many, did not like the tone and went out. I still remember the post in question, that had nothing to do with me, but with a French. Because he (and his friends?) had some pieces of equipment stolen by a French sailor (or several) he has implying that French sailors steal equipment, that while talking to a French. It was too much for me:wink


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

PCP said:


> Yes there is a lot of modern recent designs with a stern like it but living doll is not one of them:
> ....
> 
> It is not the type of transom I would chose for cruising or even for Ocean racing but ideal for regatta racing with a crew.
> ...


I do agree with you Paulo - but perhaps I did not research this as thoroughly as you have. 

From all that Alex has told us over the years about the design and build of 'Giulietta', it is difficult to deny it is ideal for what it is being used for - regatta racing and cruising.

Yachts like the Sydney 43 (and many others like it around here) are designed for pure racing - especially long distance day racing: the interior is intended for sail storage and nothing else. Unlike your part of the world, unfortunately, down here in the Roaring Forties we have very few suitable places to cruise, so people choose to race instead. Perhaps that's why Australians do so well in the Olympics and America's Cup.. and why I most always come last.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Classic30 said:


> .. and why I most always come last.


Ah - but you look good doing it.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Ah - but you look good doing it.


Yep. :grin


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Yep.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Classic30 said:


> Yep. :grin


Let me rephrase...the BOAT looks good. Heh-heh.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

PCP said:


> Fact is that I am not the right person to do that. Probably you know him better, I had just exchanged some personal emails with him and I do not know him personally: While he is involved here on the racing scene I am always cruising out of Portugal so we never meet on the water.
> 
> I had participated on his forum for a while, but as many, did not like the tone and went out. I still remember the post in question, that had nothing to do with me, but with a French. Because he (and his friends?) had some pieces of equipment stolen by a French sailor (or several) he has implying that French sailors steal equipment, that while talking to a French. It was too much for me:wink


I think that is about when I left, and also when the forum pretty much became the Alex's racing blog more than anything. I think it served a purpose but you know what look at this I can say "Tartan hull cracks" and "Ronca's made in China out of crap metal" and I did not get censored, so I think the reason for A-S existing is kind of past. Just for the record I am only a little bit French(about a 1/4), but did attend the University of Nice for a summer but was offended by that whole exchange.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Classic30 said:


> ...
> Yachts like the Sydney 43 (and many others like it around here) are designed for pure racing - especially long distance day racing: the interior is intended for sail storage and nothing else. Unlike your part of the world, unfortunately, down here in the Roaring Forties we have very few suitable places to cruise, so people choose to race instead. Perhaps that's why Australians do so well in the Olympics and America's Cup.. and why I most always come last.


Hum, I would not mind to have a Sydney 43 for cruising. It is a bit spartan but not as much as a Pogo cruiser and lots of Europeans use the Pogo for cruising. Very far from sail storage and nothing else.

I know well the interior since I have been inside the boat and I kind of like it. The only problem with that boat regarding cruising is price, it is very expensive. It is built under licence in EU by Salona. I asked them why it is so expensive and they told me that is so hard to built that they hope not to sell many:laugh





By the way, there will be one racing the Middle sea race.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

miatapaul said:


> ...t censored, so I think the reason for A-S existing is kind of past. Just for the record I am only a little bit French(about a 1/4), but did attend the University of Nice for a summer but was offended by that whole exchange.


Well, for the record i am not French neither I have French family but it would have pissed me as much if what was implied was that Americans, Brazilians, Germans or sailors from any nationality, as a group, steal hardware from boats in marinas. I felt ashamed for the guy to be Portuguese.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Classic may have a purty boat, but him.....well, like ALL of us HIM's, were FUGLY! She's on the other hand.....well what can be said, much better looking........

Back to your regularly scheduled broadcast......

OTher than some boat named Kyrie finished 2nd in class in the NFS division of the Foulweather race a week or so ago......He's purty fugly, daughter and spouse and pretty good looking tho! I'll probably be in trouble for that, but my guard doggy Mr Winston will protect me........

Marty


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> Classic may have a purty boat, but him.....well, like ALL of us HIM's, were FUGLY! She's on the other hand.....well what can be said, much better looking........
> 
> Back to your regularly scheduled broadcast......
> 
> ...


I'm not sure whether to take that as a compliment or not, Marty..

..but congratulations on your front-end placing... of course, pics or it didn't happen! :grin


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Cam,

That were not ME that placed......that was someone else that posted on here that is moored on the same dock as I am......he is purty fugly too, but his wife and daughter.........He might agree with the same three letter word "YEP"

Marty


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> Cam,
> 
> That were not ME that placed......that was someone else that posted on here that is moored on the same dock as I am......he is purty fugly too, but his wife and daughter.........He might agree with the same three letter word "YEP"
> 
> Marty


Oh, him. Riiiight... :laugh :grin

:2 boat:


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Paulo - is there in general cultural tension between the French/Portugese? 

I do remember other previous comments on here that were directed towards the French.....more joking than malicious IIRC. 

I recall because my wife is of French/Polish descent and we are very fond of France.( Mostly a wine and cheese thing.. )


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

chall03 said:


> Paulo - is there in general cultural tension between the French/Portugese?
> 
> I do remember other previous comments on here that were directed towards the French.....more joking than malicious IIRC.
> 
> I recall because my wife is of French/Polish descent and we are very fond of France.( Mostly a wine and cheese thing.. )


Not at all. France has a huge Portuguese community living there. About one in each 10 Portuguese live in France. It is not a closed community and mixed marriages with French are more a norm than the exception. The Luso descendants are even more. The integration is very good. Just to give you an idea on the municipal (county) elections of 2008 in France there was about 7000 Portuguese (or Luso descendants) candidates. From those about half was elected. The number of elected has increased on the last years.

As a norm French like the Portuguese and Portuguese like the French even if when we are talking about France (contrary to Portugal) we are talking about very different realities and cultures, cultures older than France itself. Portugal, probably the oldest country in EU, is one of the few that has a country and a single culture. On our culture Burgundy, when it was not part of France, played an important role and many warriors and noblemen from Burgundy fought with the Portuguese on the reconquest of the land taken by the Muslims (Mouros) centuries earlier and remained here, becoming Portuguese. Our first king was had mixed blood, being the son of Henrique of Burgundy, descendant of Franc kings and Tereza, a descendant from the king of Asturias and Leon and all Iberian lines till the Visigoths.

So in a word, no, there is not in our culture any tension with the French even if along our history we have been enemies (Portugal was one of the few countries Napoleon did not manage to conquer even if several attempts were made) and I would say that we like more the French then our traditional allies the British (oldest alliance in the world still effective), even if we have not any particular dislike regarding the British. It is just that our culture is more near the French one even if the French culture ruled for centuries the British one.

Yes, like the French we love cheese and wine and have some of the best in the world. Portuguese even more than the French are wine drinkers and a substantial part of the population drink wine every day with each meal (me and my wife included).


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Thanks Paulo.



PCP said:


> Yes, like the French we love cheese and wine and have some of the best in the world. Portuguese even more than the French are wine drinkers and a substantial part of the population drink wine every day with each meal (me and my wife included).


Sounds very much like my kind of place


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

chall03 said:


> Sounds very much like my kind of place


Hum, forget to tell you an important part: because so many people drink wine and the exportation is small due to very small different wine regions the prices are low for the quality and you have very good wines at incredible prices. Yesterday I drunk a Douro red wine that I bought in a promotion for a bit more than 2 Euros. This guy rate it 5 stars (Garcez):

https://www.vivino.com/users/mario-jose.a

I think the guy is crazy and that is a 3 stars wine, but where do you buy a good wine, several year's old by about 2 euros? A 3 star wine is not bad for everyday consumption. I reserve the 4 and 5 stars for special occasions, but again, where can you get a 6 year old traditional wine of top quality for 12 euros.

https://www.vivino.com/wineries/her...-de-coelheiros-vinho-regional-alentejano-2009

I love wine from many other countries but in what refers tradition and prices the Portuguese ones are pretty much unbeatable. In France or Italy to have the same quality you pay 3 times more, for wines that are also unique.

Sure, you can get about the same price in wines from Chile, South Africa or Australia, good wines but their wines are similar to many others, made with a single type of grapes. Portuguese wines are made with several types of regional grapes varieties and there is a huge number of varieties that are Portuguese. Each small region has its particular types of grapes and its traditional mix of varieties and that gives unique wines, perfected by hundreds of years, that you cannot find in any other place. For me the thing I love more about wines is their exclusivity and particular taste. I do love, like on the boats, variety.

To all the others, sorry this rambling about wines.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Ramble on about the wine, brother! I'm right there with you. I'll try a Douro this week. I too have a glass of red wine pretty much each night (always _try_ to keep it to one glass though). It's good for the soul.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

smackdaddy said:


> Ramble on about the wine, brother! I'm right there with you. I'll try a Douro this week. I too have a glass of red wine pretty much each night (always _try_ to keep it to one glass though). It's good for the soul.


There are two Douro wines: the Red (and white) and the Porto.
For the Porto you have to try at least once not what you can find cheaply on the stores but the real thing that they call vintage. They do that only on the best years and contrary to the other Portos it has no preservatives, no mixtures and even if it is slightly sweet you cannot keep the bottle for more than 3 days or so without losing qualities. That is a good thing because on that one you would not be able to drink just a glass. It is slightly sweet but it has a so powerful and varied taste that the sweet is not too much, but the right amount. Try it with nuts, strong cheese or smocked ham. The only problem is that here is expensive, I bet that there it will be even more but it will be worth every penny. Older means not necessarily better and for eating with what I was talking about I would prefer a new wine, 2011 or so. Older ones (remember I am talking about vintage) are a waste to be spoiled with anything else, The wine is just enough. All Porto vintage bottles have in big letters vintage on the bottle. Probably you can get one from a recent year for about 70USD.

Port Vintage Chart

If you are going to taste Douro wine, including Port, you would be interested by this blog made mostly by Americans in love with Douro wine and the region (that is a world heritage landscape).

Roy's Top 12 Vintage Ports - For The Love Of Port

"Vintage Port is not only one of the most legendary dessert wines, but it truly represents great value for money. Whether you prefer your VPs young or enjoy drinking them when they are considered "antiques" is up to you. There is no right or wrong answer here. The fun is in learning the difference between the young and primary fruit laden Vintage Ports that so many people enjoy and experiencing what they can become, as they mature. Generally speaking, the older Vintage Ports have their flavors and structural components come to this beautiful point when all seems right with the world. This is called the "peak" drinking window, which serious Port aficionados go to great lengths to enjoy. ..Before you spend your paycheck to achieve such nirvana, first you must learn to know what you like to drink. "

If you manage to buy one of these tell me and and I will fly over the Attlantic just to drink it with you:

http://www.thevintageportsite.com/static/7151_ChristieVintagePortAuction.pdf


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

PCP said:


> Portuguese even more than the French are wine drinkers and a substantial part of the population drink wine every day with each meal (me and my wife included).


Wow! 

I drink alcohol and like wine but having it for breakfast (every day!!) is a bit much for me. But you are right, it looks like the Portuguese are the heaviest drinkers in the world BBC News | HEALTH | Portugal tops world drinking league, quaffing even more than the French (and WAY more than the Russians, although the latter may not be quite honest about their vodka consumption).

The link also says that an astonishing 13% of all people admitted to hospitals in France are alcoholics. I suppose for Portugal it must then even be more.

Cheers! :devil


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

For what it is worth, found a light red "riojo" for around $11 US at a local grocery. Twist top. For the price very good. Not sure if it is a 2, 3 4 or 5 star per Paulo's rating system. But as one says, for a cheaper priced wine it was good. I've been trying to get the twist tops more recently, as it is easier to reseal per say if you only drink half the bottle today, the other half tomorrow......Or if on the boat, and some of the passengers are drinking, then again, resealing is a bit easier than a cork. As also noted, this is probably a basic dinner wine vs a better quality one too.

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> ...
> 
> The link also says that an astonishing 13% of all people admitted to hospitals in France are alcoholics. I suppose for Portugal it must then even be more.
> 
> Cheers! :devil


No you could not be more wrong about that. Drinking wine at meals is part of our culture and in a moderate way is beneficial to health. That has nothing to do with alcoholism.

If I drink moderately at lunch and dinner, let's say about 190cl at each meal, that translate itself by a big alcohol quantity for year but has nothing to do with health problems or alcoholism. In fact if you look at the statistics of death rate related with alcohol you are going to see that Portugal has a low incidence and that will come very far away from France and not only, much better than Canadá, US, UK, Australia, NZ and many other countries.

ALCOHOL DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY

Wine makes part of our culture, alcoholism not, in fact culturally we despise the ones that don't know how to drink and get wasted.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

blt2ski said:


> For what it is worth, found a light red "riojo" for around $11 US at a local grocery. Twist top. For the price very good. Not sure if it is a 2, 3 4 or 5 star per Paulo's rating system. But as one says, for a cheaper priced wine it was good. I've been trying to get the twist tops more recently, as it is easier to reseal per say if you only drink half the bottle today, the other half tomorrow......Or if on the boat, and some of the passengers are drinking, then again, resealing is a bit easier than a cork. As also noted, this is probably a basic dinner wine vs a better quality one too.
> 
> Marty


Rioja, not Riojo:wink That is a Spanish wine. Spain as a whole has not the same wine tradition as Portugal but then Spain is diferent from Portugal for having several different cultures, some even with their own language and in what regards Rioja region, yes they have a strong wine culture and Rioja is a great wine (i know not only the wine but the region that is a very beautiful one). Regarding Spain the other wine region that is at least as good is the Spanish Douro region that they call Ribera del Duero. Very good also...but both more expensive than similar quality Portuguese wines that you can buy for considerable less money.

Top quality Riojas, I mean 4 or five stars wines are very expensive.

On the same site, that has ratings done by wine appreciators, look at how much you have to spend to get a 3 or 4 star Rioja bottle and compare how much you have to spend for a 3 or 4 stars Portuguese Douro or Alentejo wine:

https://www.vivino.com/search?q=Rioja
https://www.vivino.com/search?q=Douro&start=2
https://www.vivino.com/search?q=Alentejo&start=1


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

https://www.vivino.com/wineries/ontanon/wines/rioja-clarete-9999

I seemed to have found it.

Yes I thought I was spelling the rioja part incorrect.....hence the quotes, but ghoped and figured you would figure out what I was saying.

marty


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

PCP said:


> No you could not be more wrong about that. Drinking wine at meals is part of our culture and in a moderate way is beneficial to health. That has nothing to do with alcoholism.
> 
> If I drink moderately at lunch and dinner, let's say about 190cl at each meal, that translate itself by a big alcohol quantity for year but has nothing to do with health problems or alcoholism. In fact if you look at the statistics of death rate related with alcohol you are going to see that Portugal has a low incidence and that will come very far away from France and not only, much better than Canadá, US, UK, Australia, NZ and many other countries.
> 
> ...


Yes, I know there are studies that say _*moderate*_ drinking may have health benefits (though there is considerable disagreement about that). My understanding is that the definition of moderate is a maximum of one standard glass of wine per day for women and 1-2 for men. I believe that there is unanimous agreement in the medical community that anything beyond that is harmful. More than a half liter of wine per day (3 times 190cl) is clearly beyond that limit.

The statistics you linked to are confusing to me. Alcohol consumption patterns seem quite similar in Portugal and France, not only in overall quantity but also in the cultural norms, like near-ubiquitous social acceptance of drinking and, at the same time, disdain of obvious drunkenness. it is therefore strange that the death rates should be so different for these two countries. I did not see on that link how exactly 'Death by alcohol' is defined so it is difficult to see what exactly is measured.

One better defined statistics is DALY (Disability Adjusted Life Years). The cost due to alcohol is pretty high in Portugal, comparable to most European countries as well as the Americas, see http://gamapserver.who.int/mapLibrary/Files/Maps/Global_dalys_2012.png

I agree, though, that the detailed causes are probably different in different cultures. In countries like the US, or UK, the more heterogeneous distribution of alcohol consumption in the population (e.g. tee-totalers mixed with college binge drinkers) probably leads to more acute deaths, e.g. by acute alcohol poisoning. Since the lost DALY are similar, there must be more alcohol related deaths in mediterranean* cultures like Portugal, Spain, Italy, France, etc that are due to diseases caused by habitual drinking, like cirrhosis and cancer of the liver, ischemic heart failure etc. Possibly, in the map that you linked to, only the immediate deaths were counted, which would explain the relatively low rate for Portugal and the higher rates for the US etc (this does still not explain the difference between France and Portugal).

*Yes, I know Portugal is not on the Med but I believe that there are strong similarities between these cultures


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Yes, I know there are studies that say _*moderate*_ drinking may have health benefits (though there is considerable disagreement about that). My understanding is that the definition of moderate is a maximum of one standard glass of wine per day for women and 1-2 for men. I believe that there is unanimous agreement in the medical community that anything beyond that is harmful. More than a half liter of wine per day (3 times 190cl) is clearly beyond that limit.
> 
> The statistics you linked to are confusing to me. Alcohol consumption patterns seem quite similar in Portugal and France, not only in overall quantity but also in the cultural norms, like near-ubiquitous social acceptance of drinking and, at the same time, disdain of obvious drunkenness. it is therefore strange that the death rates should be so different for these two countries. I did not see on that link how exactly 'Death by alcohol' is defined so it is difficult to see what exactly is measured.
> 
> ...


The studies are quite consistent but they don't regard drinking alcohol but wine.

The health problem with Alcoholism particularly on the European North countries, Germany, UK and France, only to talk about European countries has not to so with wine but with young people getting drunk as fast as they can and they don't do that with wine but with alcoholic beverages with a much bigger alcohol content like whiskey, Vodka, Gin and that type of drinks, what they call shoots. That is rare in Portugal giving the strong contempt that culturally we have for drunken people.

The data that I had posted was much more detailed than yours and was made with credible sources: "OUR DATA: We use the most recent data from these primary sources: WHO, World Bank, UNESCO, CIA and individual country databases for global health and causes of death. We use the CDC, NIH and individual state and county databases for verification and supplementation for USA data."
http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/alcohol/by-country/

But even if we use that data you have posted regarding disability by alcohol (that has much bigger intervals and is less detailed) we can see that Portugal is on the same group as the US, Canada and most of Europe while on the data regarding alcohol consumption Portugal is alone with Russia with the biggest world's rate. That can only mean that the way Portuguese drink and the type of alcoholic drink (wine) makes all the difference and while Portugal has one of the biggest alcohol consumption by citizen that is not accompanied by an alcoholism problem or a health problem and that was what I was talking about.



Have a look:
http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

PCP said:


> The studies are quite consistent but they don't regard drinking alcohol but wine.
> 
> No, that's not correct. Alcohol is alcohol, that is simple chemistry. There are some substances in red wine (resveratrol) that likely have health benefits but the concentration is too low to have any substantial effect. Alcohol by itself (and, again, in moderation, a glass per day or less) may have positive effects but it does not matter whether it's provenance is wine, whiskey or any other beverage.
> 
> ...


d


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

TY mast. I like good data.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

I see you are some crusader against wine. Have it your way but you fail to explain why Portugal is one of the biggest alcohol consumer and has health related problems smaller or equal than other countries that has a alcohol consumption 4 or 5 times smaller.

By the way the consequences of alcoholism (excess of alcohol on the blood) are cancer problems and heart problems, liver disease and a shorter live expectancy.

How do you explain that Portugal is among the countries with less coronary diseases, much less than the US (about half) and among the European ones that rate better, curiously all wine drinkers?

How do explain that the Portuguese cancer rate (even with too many tobacco smokers) is not particularly high, almost identical to the one on US and lower then the one on the Netherlands, France, UK, Germany, Belgium and more countries that have a much smaller alcohol consumption?

And about liver problems, one of the major problems of Alcoholism were Portuguese citizens have less problems than the ones from the US, UK, Germany and Austria, among others?

Regarding life expectancy Portugal is ahead of Germany, Finland, Belgium, Denmark and way ahead from the US!

World Life Expectancy

Not bad for one of the biggest alcohol consumers in the world, about 13 liters for each one of us (over 15 years of age).

Off course as I have explained and contrary to what you claim that has to do with the way the alcohol is consumed (wine) and with the relative quantity of alcohol on the blood. World Health Organization know what you ignore and they say:

"Alcohol-related harm is determined by the volume of alcohol consumed, *the pattern of drinking, and, on rare occasions, the quality of alcohol consumed*. "

But fundamentalists can only see their own way and even if contrary to all evidence you continue ignore that in Portugal there is not a particular alcoholism problem or related disease increase or loss of life expectancy, even if we are among the biggest wine drinkers (and therefore alcohol consumers), the facts remain on the different indicators and prove you wrong, as the positive effect of the continued moderate wine consumption, at meals, that studies on the EU relate with the lower incidence on cardiovascular diseases on all wine drinking countries.

For information about the advantages of drinking moderately wine google this: Benefic effects of moderate wine consumption

Think what you want, for me the thread drift is finished.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

PCP said:


> I see you are some crusader against wine.
> 
> I don't see how you get that idea. I said several times that I enjoy an occasional glass of wine (did you read the last paragraph of my previous posting?). How does this make me "some crusader against wine?"
> 
> ...


d


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Or are only people qualified to discuss alcohol consumption that start their days drinking with breakfast, as you proudly proclaim you and your wife do?
> d


I did not wanted to post more but that is just insulting and not true.
I said that me and my wife drink wine at lunch and dinner not at the breakfast and you know that perfectly since you have quoted me on that before.

I will not continue talking with a person that resources to lies and insults.

Have a good day.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

PCP said:


> I did not wanted to post more but that is just insulting and not true.
> I said that me and my wife drink wine at lunch and dinner not at the breakfast and you know that perfectly since you have quoted me on that before.
> 
> I will not continue talking with a person that resources to lies and insults.
> ...


I suggest you should be careful to call others liars.

Please read your Post #60. You said:

"Yes, like the French we love cheese and wine and have some of the best in the world. Portuguese even more than the French are wine drinkers and a substantial part of the population drink wine every day with each meal (me and my wife included)."

I will accept a sincere apology for calling me a liar.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I suggest you should be careful to call others liars.
> 
> Please read your Post #60. You said:
> 
> ...


No, I maintain what I said. You knew that was not true. After this post of yours, commenting me and my wife having wine at every meal (post 60):



MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Wow!
> 
> *I drink alcohol and like wine but having it for breakfast (every day!!) is a bit much for me. ..then even be more*.
> 
> Cheers! :devil


I clearly said, replying to your post, that I drink wine at lunch and dinner. The idea of drinking wine at breakfast is ridiculous and I have never said that.



PCP said:


> *If I drink moderately at lunch and dinner*, let's say about 190cl at each meal, t...


You quoted that statement later on another post of yours so you have to have noticed.

If you want to have this type of arguments go and post on the Political section of the forum.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

You said what you said, that you drink wine with every meal (#60), and you never corrected that. Later, in the part that you just posted, which is from #67, you said that "If I drink moderately at lunch and dinner, let's say about 190cl at each meal, that translate itself by a big alcohol quantity." So, you said how much you drink at lunch and dinner but you left it open how much you drink at breakfast.

And, later (#70) I listed the quantity of wine you drink per day as 3 times 190cl. You quoted this yourself (post #71) so, using your argument, "you have to have noticed."

But this is really getting silly. Look, I believe that you don't drink habitually at breakfast, that would be completely against the cultural and societal norms that you respect.

*But I am not letting it stand here that I am a liar * when it is your statement ("I drink wine with every meal") that is either wrong or misleading.

I agree with you that it is best to end this thread. It is way off topic anyway and I don't see anything good coming of it.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> But this is really getting silly. Look, I believe that you don't drink habitually at breakfast, that would be completely against the cultural and societal norms that you respect.
> 
> *But I am not letting it stand here that I am a liar * when it is your statement ("I drink wine with every meal") that is either wrong or misleading.
> 
> I agree with you that it is best to end this thread. It is way off topic anyway and I don't see anything good coming of it.


Children, children... it seems to me you've both had too much to drink.

Lest we soon incur the Wrath of the Mods, let's get back to the topic of Anything-Sailing shall we?!?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Oh for heavens sake MUS. You could have easily clarified the "with every meal" business yet you chose not to. Reality is few southern Europeans consider Breakfast to be a meal as such and it was pretty obvious that when Paulo said "with every meal" he was talking lunch and evening. Dont make a big deal out of nothing.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

The big point about southern Europeans is that, and I believe this comes from sensible upbringing, in the main they know how to drink. I'm not saying they don't overdo it on occasions, of course some of them do but because they are brought up to accept that food and wine are very happy bedfellows they can enjoy wine with meals and not feel the need to get totally wasted. Unlike, I am sad to say, many of my fellow countrymen and women who seem to make getting utterly trashed, something of a habit. Nonetheless what is so wrong with getting slightly out of your tree every now and then ? I am not talking about falling down drunk, just somewhat tipsy. Nice feeling quite frankly and I care not a damn that some wowser thinks ill of it. 

I won't say that I have wine with every meal simply because I am still working and usually have lunch at my desk but if I'm eating a cooked meal at home or if I am at a restaurant then yep I am going to have a couple of glasses or share a bottle so my average daily intake would be somewhere around 325mm of wine. Sometimes a pre dinner beer or sherry. Sometimes an after dinner whiskey. Now maybe just maybe that means I may cark it earlier than a teatotaller but to be frank, I don't give a damn. Life is for the enjoying and drinking wine with a meal is for me most enjoyable. I am no more going to stop drinking wine with dinner than I am going to drink decaffinated coffee, other than full cream milk or some awful substitute for butter. Otoh, I don't partake of sugary confectionary to any great degree, rarely drinking soft drink (soda pop in the US ?) and while yes it is full cream drink very little milk and eat minimal butter. Also in anything other than Asian cuisine I cook with olive oil and/or butter. 

Which reminds me .... Portuguese Olive Oil. Damn that is good. I've long been a fan of Spanish but the Portuguese I've had was the best. Yay also to Portuguese wines, Portuguese cheese and Portuguese pork products. Unfortunately not a lot of it comes to Australia and with current exchange rates it ends up being quite expensive.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Classic30 said:


> Children, children... it seems to me you've both had too much to drink.
> 
> Lest we soon incur the Wrath of the Mods, let's get back to the topic of Anything-Sailing shall we?!?


Good point C.

I know I have also sinned but please peoples, if you want to have a knock down drag it out brawl re the perils of the demon drink then I'm afraid we'll need a new thread in Off Topic.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> You said what you said, that you drink wine with every meal (#60), and you never corrected that. Later, in the part that you just posted, which is from #67, you said that "If I drink moderately at lunch and dinner, let's say about 190cl at each meal, that translate itself by a big alcohol quantity." So, you said how much you drink at lunch and dinner but you left it open how much you drink at breakfast.
> 
> And, later (#70) I listed the quantity of wine you drink per day as 3 times 190cl. You quoted this yourself (post #71) so, using your argument, "you have to have noticed."
> 
> ...


That is plain crazy. when I said that I drink wine at all the meals I has talking obviously about the main meals lunch and dinner. Those are the two main meals. There are also breakfast, lunch and supper but I (and many) don't even take all of those most of the time.

If not obvious on the first time it would be completely obvious, even for you, when on a subsequent post I explained clearly what were the meals where I drink wine (lunch and dinner) and even stated the max quantity that normally I take on those meals.

I don't know anybody that drink wine with the breakfast, the idea is just as crazy as your talk. Yes you knew that I did not drink wine at the breakfast and stated that I do with an obvious intention to insult me.

when somebody knows that something is not true and states the opposite he is telling a lie.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> ...
> Which reminds me .... Portuguese Olive Oil. Damn that is good. I've long been a fan of Spanish but the Portuguese I've had was the best. Yay also to Portuguese wines, Portuguese cheese and Portuguese pork products. Unfortunately not a lot of it comes to Australia and with current exchange rates it ends up being quite expensive.


Since the drift goes on I guess you deserve a tip: If that olive oil is just prime category than on the breakfast have some cracking bread toasts and just put a bit of olive oil over them instead of butter.

That's what I do, a lot more healthy than butter and a lot tastier...but the olive oil has really to be very good.

An old tradition that has been kind of lost in Portugal but that still remains strong in Andalucia, Spain where I learned to appreciate that.

Regarding olive oil the Portuguese, Spanish, Italians and also the Greeks have excellent olive oil, if you know how to look for the good one. Greek and Italian are a lot more expensive for the same quality. Curiously there are differences in taste and even on the "texture" being the Italian and Greek more "liquid".


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Is anyone else as amused as I am that this thread alone seems to have more activity than the forum it was started about? :laugher

_(See, trying to bring it back on topic  )_


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

tdw said:


> Oh for heavens sake MUS. You could have easily clarified the "with every meal" business yet you chose not to. Reality is few southern Europeans consider Breakfast to be a meal as such and it was pretty obvious that when Paulo said "with every meal" he was talking lunch and evening. Dont make a big deal out of nothing.


I certainly regret that this went off the far end. I have read many postings by Paulo and enjoyed them, both about sailing and about Portuguese culture.

But it is not up to me to interpret what he says, and certainly not to correct him. I went exactly by what he said. Who am I to tell him what he considers a proper meal? In particular since he merrily continued to discuss the issue when we were talking about three (3) doses of 190cl wine a day. That would have been an _excellent_ time for him to clarify what he really meant.

I have learned, the hard way, not to put words in the mouth of someone, in particular of someone who is convinced of the superiority of his or her cultural values.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

tdw said:


> The big point about southern Europeans is that, and I believe this comes from sensible upbringing, in the main they know how to drink. I'm not saying they don't overdo it on occasions, of course some of them do but because they are brought up to accept that food and wine are very happy bedfellows they can enjoy wine with meals and not feel the need to get totally wasted. Unlike, I am sad to say, many of my fellow countrymen and women who seem to make getting utterly trashed, something of a habit. Nonetheless what is so wrong with getting slightly out of your tree every now and then ? I am not talking about falling down drunk, just somewhat tipsy. Nice feeling quite frankly and I care not a damn that some wowser thinks ill of it.
> 
> I won't say that I have wine with every meal simply because I am still working and usually have lunch at my desk but if I'm eating a cooked meal at home or if I am at a restaurant then yep I am going to have a couple of glasses or share a bottle so my average daily intake would be somewhere around 325mm of wine. Sometimes a pre dinner beer or sherry. Sometimes an after dinner whiskey. Now maybe just maybe that means I may cark it earlier than a teatotaller but to be frank, I don't give a damn. Life is for the enjoying and drinking wine with a meal is for me most enjoyable. I am no more going to stop drinking wine with dinner than I am going to drink decaffinated coffee, other than full cream milk or some awful substitute for butter. Otoh, I don't partake of sugary confectionary to any great degree, rarely drinking soft drink (soda pop in the US ?) and while yes it is full cream drink very little milk and eat minimal butter. Also in anything other than Asian cuisine I cook with olive oil and/or butter.
> 
> Which reminds me .... Portuguese Olive Oil. Damn that is good. I've long been a fan of Spanish but the Portuguese I've had was the best. Yay also to Portuguese wines, Portuguese cheese and Portuguese pork products. Unfortunately not a lot of it comes to Australia and with current exchange rates it ends up being quite expensive.


You make two excellent points.

One is about the difference in drinking habits between cultures. The Southern European strong disdain of obvious drunkenness (already expressed by Homer!) leads to much less excess than in some other societies where occasional 'getting out of your tree,' to use your words, is more readily accepted. But that does not mean that habitual drinking, never or rarely to the point of obvious intoxication, is harmless. The statistics make it very clear that the health consequences are grave.

Your second point is that 'life is for enjoying' and that you are willing to accept a (hopefully slightly) shorter life span for the pleasure you find in drinking wine (and eating butter etc). This is fine and dandy (and I happen to be of the same persuasion) but this decision needs to be made consciously and with full information available. Claiming (and presumably telling young impressionable people) that drinking 13l of pure alcohol per year is good for you is the same as the tobacco industry claiming, a few decades ago, that smoking is healthy. Neither of these is. Informed adults are welcome to accept the risks but they should know that the risks are real.

As it happens, just after I wrote the previous posting my wife called me down to dinner and what had she chosen for wine? A Portuguese Vinho Verde (it looks like our $ still allows us to buy it). Very nice!


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> ...
> 
> But it is not up to me to interpret what he says, and certainly not to correct him. I went exactly by what he said. Who am I to tell him what he considers a proper meal? In particular since he merrily continued to discuss the issue when we were talking about *three (3) doses of 190cl wine a day*. That would have been an _excellent_ time for him to clarify what he really meant.
> 
> ..


You seem very confused and confounding. The only one that talked about three doses a day was you. See:


PCP said:


> ...
> If I drink moderately at *lunch and dinner*, let's say a*bout 190cl at each meal*, that translate itself by a big alcohol quantity for year but has nothing to do with health problems or alcoholism. ...


See, 190ml at lunch, 190ml at dinner, that makes two. No reason to be confused and confounding about it.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Anywho, it's all clear now. Paulo doesn't pour Vino on his cornflakes. :laugh


Vinho Verde ..... fabulous wine for drinking with lunch. Very seafood friendly. 

OK, now I don't have the statistics but I believe the WHO reckons that 250ml of wine per day is optimum and recommended. So that is over 91 litres per annum. 

I remember when I was young we had a Polish family living down the road and I'd often eat with them. Always be wine and the older kids kids (early teens) were given a spritzer of white wine and soda water. Taught me to appreciate wine and food. 


Paulo .... even here in Oz a lot of restaurants now give a small bowl of Extra Virgin with bread rather than butter. I really like it but I also like butter, particularly unsalted.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

tdw said:


> OK, now I don't have the statistics but I believe the WHO reckons that 250ml of wine per day is optimum and recommended. So that is over 91 litres per annum.


Nice try buddy! It is not the optimum but the maximum :devil

(and that's for men, typically half of that for women)

Different countries have different recommendations for the maximum intake. Interestingly, Portugal and Italy have the highest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recommended_maximum_intake_of_alcoholic_beverages


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

SO what happened to the TYPES and VARIETIES of wines we WERE talking/typing about?!?!?!?!?

The how much, vs little, who cares......if I drink the equal to a bottle a month, i'm very drunk that month....persay......

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> ..
> Vinho Verde ..... fabulous wine for drinking with lunch. Very seafood friendly.
> ..


Not all vinho verde is the same . If you like it you have to try the two best grape qualities that are so good that normally the bottle says in big letters not vinho verde but the grapes variety, Alvarinho(or Albarinho on Galicia) and Loureiro. 
http://buyingguide.winemag.com/varietals/albarino/alvarinho
http://buyingguide.winemag.com/varietals/portuguese-white/loureiro

Just to give you an idea of the incredible number of grape varieties that are in Portugal (many unique) due to thousands of years making wine, just for the Vinho verde (that is a small region on the north of the country) you have different wines made with these different types of grapes, or with several blended:

Alvarinho, Avesso, Azal, Batoca, Loureiro, Arinto (Pedernã), Trajadura, Pintosa, Cainho de Moreira, Cascal,Tália (Douradinha), Esganinho, Sercial (Esgana-Cão,) Esganoso, Fernão-Pires (Maria-Gomes), Lame, Rabigato, S. Mamede, Semilão.

This just for the white wine. For the red you have about the same quantity of different ones. The red is a very different wine from the white, it is preferred on the region but it is so different of all the other wines that you need to learn to like it.

For old mates like us the best place to try it out it is here:





For the kids, this is the place:





A nice region to visit too, not only the wine and the food but where you can really the density of the past generations that contributed to all the good things you can experience, among magnificent landscapes:


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Well. This thread certainly took a sharp turn away from the original topic but wine, butter and olive oil is infinitely more interesting than the fate of the Anything Sailing forum.

And +1 to Portuguese wine.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

DRFerron said:


> Well. This thread certainly took a sharp turn away from the original topic but wine, butter and olive oil is infinitely more interesting than the fate of the Anything Sailing forum.
> 
> And +1 to Portuguese wine.


Yeah, it figures that the most popular thread I've ever started was hijacked after about a dozen posts into a discussion I couldn't possibly care less about.


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

BentSailor said:


> Is anyone else as amused as I am that this thread alone seems to have more activity than the forum it was started about? :laugher


Yeah, but at least it's a Portuguese guy getting into a protracted argument about the Portuguese joie de vivre, which was the cornerstone of anything-sailing. Ah, memories.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

My wife and I spent two weeks in Portugal for our honeymoon. The original plan had been to spend cross over to Spain for four or five days, but we loved Portugal so much we skipped the side trip.

The guide book made it clear that wine with meals is expected, and that "meals" means lunch and dinner, breakfast is something other. The guide book also said that drinking beer with a meal would be considered weird but since breakfast isn't a meal, beer with breakfast would be OK 

Just to keep this vaguely sailing related: This was before I sailed, so I didn't know anything about anything involved. We watched sailboat struggle against the fierce April weather in the Atlantic off Sagres point, it looked like that little boat was in a washing machine. That evening we saw the same boat peacefully anchored in the bay off the town of Sagres, its owners presumably enjoying some fine wine on shore. It looked lovely. Maybe that's part of what sold me on the romance of sailing.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

Mimosa is a breakfast drink, no?

Hence wine (champagne) with breakfast should be perfectly acceptable ;-)


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> Which reminds me .... Portuguese Olive Oil. Damn that is good. I've long been a fan of Spanish but the Portuguese I've had was the best. Yay also to Portuguese wines, Portuguese cheese and Portuguese pork products. Unfortunately not a lot of it comes to Australia and with current exchange rates it ends up being quite expensive.


I still think Australian olive oil is better than the Portugese one.. it's fresher for starters, not having to come so far by ship.

Cobram Estate

Have you tried it, TD? No?? Shame on you.. 

(Mind you, I drink Australian tea also.. nothing but the best for me.)


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I read an interview with Robert Mondovi (a California wine maker) who said one of his reasons for success was his personal moderation of wine consumption. He said he saw many winemakers who became alcoholics and that he kept his consumption to two bottles a day. (He lived to be 94) So moderation can be different. 

I had a French girlfriend who said his grandfather had a bottle of wine, bread and a bulb of garlic every morning for breakfast.

Oh and it appears that A-S is still down.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Fstbttms said:


> Yeah, it figures that the most popular thread I've ever started was hijacked after about a dozen posts into a discussion I couldn't possibly care less about.


Well you should. :laugh

btw ... if you want the non A-S posts moved to their own thread, just let me know. As OP you may not have proprietorial rights but relocating the hijack is doable and would be polite.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Classic30 said:


> I still think Australian olive oil is better than the Portugese one.. it's fresher for starters, not having to come so far by ship.
> 
> Cobram Estate
> 
> ...


Now don't you come complaining to me about thread hijacking .... :laugh

I've had some very good Oz Olive Oil, indeed an old mate of mine was instrumental in the establishment of the industry in conjunction with Spanish producers. The product gets better all the time and in fact is now top notch however the very best from Portugal and Spain is still top of the heap.

I do keep meaning to find some of that tea you were talking about. I've not been all that happy with my last two packets of Midura.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> Now don't you come complaining to me about thread hijacking .... :laugh
> 
> I've had some very good Oz Olive Oil, indeed an old mate of mine was instrumental in the establishment of the industry in conjunction with Spanish producers. The product gets better all the time and in fact is now top notch however the very best from Portugal and Spain is still top of the heap.


Ah, well. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. :laugh

The stuff they serve in Melbourne restaurants does vary dramatically and I think many now are finding the quality control issues with imported stuff (thats been sitting in the hot sun on a dock somewhere in Singapore for a week or three on it's way here) isn't worth the risk compared to predictably high-quality local produce.



tdw said:


> I do keep meaning to find some of that tea you were talking about. I've not been all that happy with my last two packets of Midura.


Nerada. Comes from up Tully way, in the mountains back of Cairns. Any Coles or Woolies will stock it and it's not even terribly expensive. Leaf or individual bags in a green cardboard box.










Does need to be kept airtight once you remove the wrapping though.. very full-flavoured with a lovely aroma.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Classic30 said:


> I still think Australian olive oil is better than the Portugese one.. it's fresher for starters, not having to come so far by ship.
> 
> Cobram Estate
> 
> ...


It seems a bit odd to me because on the bottles label there is no indication of the acidity. Acidity is the main indicator of olive oil quality and it is mandatory to have it on the label on all olive oil bottles produced on EU. It seems to be a big factory with de luxe presentation and this one seems to be the one with more international prices, but they are kind of odd, all on countries that don't have a mediterranean olive oil culture.

Cobram Estate

From some years now there is a multinational institution that is the benchmark in what regards Olive oil and their contests reunite the best of all olive oil production, including Australia that has participated on the contests, I am talking about the International Olive oil council.

International Olive Council

On the last contest (2015), regarding best quality olive oil, divided in four types, regarding first prizes and nationality of the brands, Spain won one of the types and Portugal the other three.

Regarding 2nd prizes, one for Spain, other for Italy, other for Portugal. Regarding 3rd prizes, one for Portugal other for Spain.

Among the finalists that did not get prizes, two 1st and a third for Portugal, a 2nd for Australia, a 2th and a 3rd for Chile.
You can download the results here:
INTERNATIONAL EXTRA VIRGIN OLIVE OIL COMPETITION 2015 SECOND EDITION - INTERNATIONAL EXTRA VIRGIN OLIVE OIL COMPETITION 2015 SECOND EDITION - International Olive Council

It is obvious that Australia produce good quality olive oil: to be among the finalists, even if not prized, the oil has to be of very good quality. The Australian brand is Boundary Bend that " is Australia's leading producer of premium extra virgin olive oil and owns Australia's two top selling home grown olive oil brands, *Cobram Estate*."

Our Brands | Boundary Bend

I would very much to try Australian Olive oil, to increase my knowledge on tastes and flavors.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

PCP said:


> It seems a bit odd to me because on the bottles label there is no indication of the acidity. Acidity is the main indicator of olive oil quality and it is mandatory to have it on the label on all olive oil bottles produced on EU. It seems to be a big factory with de luxe presentation and this one seems to be the one with more international prices, but they are kind of odd, all on countries that don't have a mediterranean olive oil culture.
> 
> Cobram Estate
> 
> ...


That's interesting, Paulo - very educational. The things you learn off-topic on Sailnet.. :eek :laugh

In your opinion, what acidity should someone be looking for on a top-quality oil?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Learning more from a Portuguese about olive oil, than my wife who claims to know everything about olive oil, because she is of greek decent......hmmmmmmm.......

Well anyway. I am sure there is olive oyl.....oops....olive oil from where ever olives can be grown! BUT just like wines, beer etc, ea area it is grown in, will have a slightly different taste etc, due to climate, soils, water availability, temp etc.......this says the person with a horticulture degree or two! 

marty


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> Learning more from a Portuguese about olive oil, than my wife who claims to know everything about olive oil, because she is of greek decent......hmmmmmmm.......
> 
> Well anyway. I am sure there is olive oyl.....oops....olive oil from where ever olives can be grown! BUT just like wines, beer etc, ea area it is grown in, will have a slightly different taste etc, due to climate, soils, water availability, temp etc.......this says the person with a horticulture degree or two!


Well, Marty.. to assist your edyoucashun, here's a pic I took of a Vegemite tree in fruit out the window of the bus last time we waz out back. They need fairly dry sandy soil with just the right mix of iron oxide, which I why (so the bus-driver says) they don't grow anywhere else in the world:










:wink :devil

PS: Oops!! I think I've just made an off-topic thread even more off-topic..

PPS: I can't believe I got to post that on a sailing forum!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I seem to recall a rock band from down under singing about a Vegemite sandwich or some such thing...........But that were many many many moons and multitudes of a grape substance, since it is made of a fruit, counts towards my fruit count for breakfast lunch and dinner!

Marty


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> I seem to recall a rock band from down under singing about a Vegemite sandwich or some such thing...........But that were many many many moons and multitudes of a grape substance, since it is made of a fruit, counts towards my fruit count for breakfast lunch and dinner!
> 
> Marty


That would be the band "Men at Work" and it was probably back last century celebrating the occasion of us taking the Auld Mug off of those dammed Yankees..

Fruit?? Marty, the real stuff is mostly beer mud.. :laugh


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Classic30 said:


> That's interesting, Paulo - very educational. The things you learn off-topic on Sailnet.. :eek :laugh
> 
> In your opinion, what acidity should someone be looking for on a top-quality oil?


The acidity that is better has to do with the use but it is always lower than 0.8. For putting on the soup (we put olive oil on many recipes at the end without boiling it) you would want a stronger one with more acidity and a stronger taste but the ones that are used on the bread or salads we want them to be the very light and with a very delicate flavor.

The last are the harder to produce (and find at a decent price) and their acidity can go as low (in very rare cases) to 0.1 but 0.5 is already considered very good.

I don't know if the Australians follow the same rules but in Europe a Extra Virgin Olive oil has to have an acidity under 0.8 and a Virgin Olive oil has to have under 2%.

As you can see a huge difference but a much bigger difference exists between Virgin oil and ordinary Olive oil. The Virgin oil is obtained only by mechanical means, pressing the Olives and no other product is allowed. It is truly pure olive juice and that's why it is so difficult to have a very low acidity that is only possible to obtain with high quality olives very ripe. You have an even higher grade that is the biological extra-virgin where no chemicals are used on the tree (to protect olives from insects) or on the soil.

Here for home consumption we only utilize virgin and extra virgin oil but the industry uses mostly refined olive oil that is obtained treating chemically olive oils of inferior quality. It can have a low acidity (chemically obtained) but its quality is always very inferior to Virgin oil, even to one with a much superior acidity.

Here some of the best extra virgin have an acidity as low as 0.1:

Companhia do Azeite - A Loja de Azeites Especiais na Internet

These ones don't go generally to big commercial contests that serve to promote brands internationally to sell abroad (like the one in New York) were almost half of the bottles win a medal of some sort. No point in promoting these abroad since they are produced in very small quantities, most of them by very small producers and we consume them almost all anyway. Some goes to Brazil (prices in Reais) where many citizens descendant from Portuguese never lost the taste for good olive oil.

To put one of those a medal from a New York contest would mean to a Southern European as much as to an American to put a Medal from a Madrid or London Bourbon Whiskey contest. 95% of the olive oil production is from the med and most is consumed here. The average consumption of a Portuguese is 7L a year, but that counts with children so in fact is bigger. Mine is certainly bigger. At my house a 0.75L bottle lasts about 10/15days. That will give me a year consumption between 9 and 13.5 liters, a normal consumption for a middle class ciyizen that has the money to use olive oil instead of other cheaper and lesser quality oils.

As a curiosity and to understand the part it plays in our culture we don't call it "Olive oil", I mean a literal translation, we call it Azeite that mean originally in Arab (az-zayt) olive oil, not any other kind of oil. We don't call Azeite an oil, calling it oil is offensive, oils are all the others, Azeite is Azeite.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

blt2ski said:


> Learning more from a Portuguese about olive oil, than my wife who claims to know everything about olive oil, because she is of greek decent......hmmmmmmm.......
> ...
> marty


Well Marty, my grand mother was a farmer and she produced not only excellent olive oil as well as excellent wine, so I have been raised among olive trees and vineyards. When kid I used to participate on the making of wine, in the "pisa" of the grapes. A festive occasion that has been lost since now all is made using machines.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Classic30 said:


> That would be the band "Men at Work" and it was probably back last century celebrating the occasion of us taking the Auld Mug off of those dammed Yankees..
> 
> Fruit?? Marty, the real stuff is mostly beer mud.. :laugh


My thought later was, I should change the quote to something like....

Some "men at work" told me about a rock song and Vegemite sandwiches..........

Not sure if they are still around, but had some good tunes. I hear some played occasionally.

Marty


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

PCP said:


> Well Marty, my grand mother was a farmer and she produced not only excellent olive oil as well as excellent wine, so I have been raised among olive trees and vineyards. When kid I used to participate on the making of wine, in the "pisa" of the grapes. A festive occasion that has been lost since now all is made using machines.


A good friend of mine has a few acres of grapes north of me. He invites people to pick and does the grape stomping party every fall to celebrate the fall harvest. Probably more done like a northern climate as his roots are swedish IIRC.

Marty


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Classic30 said:


> That would be the band "Men at Work" and it was probably back last century celebrating the occasion of us taking the Auld Mug off of those dammed Yankees.


Hah! Business as Usual was the first CD I bought. I was an early adopter of the new technology, I saved my paper route and odd job money and splurged on one of those new-fangled shiny disk player thingies.

Then I found that the catalog of music available on CD was quite limited, especially in the record stores in North Dakota... So Men at Work it was!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I fear boys and girls that this is heading to Off Topic. Yes, I admit the hijack is closer to my heart than the woes of Anything_Sailing but whoa mama this is drift of continental proportions.

No I am not suggesting we get back On Topic .... that has surely been well and truly covered but unless we are using the most expensive oil imaginable to calm troubled waters ..... aha , but wait .....



See ... back on topic.


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## Presuming Ed (Sep 2, 2011)

Classic30 said:


> That would be the band "Men at Work" and it was probably back last century celebrating the occasion of us taking the Auld Mug off of those dammed Yankees..
> 
> Fruit?? Marty, the real stuff is mostly beer mud.. :laugh


Came out in 1981, so 2 years before the 83 cup. IIRC, it was played (LOUD) on Black Swan, Australia II's tender as they towed out in Newport.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

And on their 1985 album "Two Hearts" they had a song named "Sail to You" — it was a terrible album, but there you are, sailing related.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Wow. You people will hurt yourselves if you stretch any more.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)




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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Paulo .... my guess would be that Australian Olive Oil is going to be a bit like Oz cheese and wine .... once apalling, now very good and getting better all the time. What a lot of our produce lacks is maturity and nothing but time can cure that failing. I have no doubt that the best of Australian wine can hold its head up in any company but generally speaking one can buy an inexpensive imported wine of better quality than a lot of Australian and at a better price. (The current drop in the value of the Oz dollar is rapidly correcting that problem. :crying) 

Cheese .... excellent pasturised milk cheese but unfortunatley there are restrictions on the use of non pasturised milk so we will always fail there until that issue is addressed ... as it should be.

Wine .... oak casks are a rarity. 

Do not even talk to me about Jamon. At least now we can buy decent Jamon and Proscuitto but would you believe that I saw Iberico/Pata Negra for sale in Sydney last weekend at AUD500.00killo. That is getting close to EU250kilo !! :eek


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> No I am not suggesting we get back On Topic .... that has surely been well and truly covered but unless we are using the most expensive oil imaginable to calm troubled waters ..... aha , but wait .....
> 
> 
> 
> See ... back on topic.


Well then.. on the topic of oil on waters:

1. Do you guys prefer to stream a tin behind you when conditions get nasty? ..or do you pump some out of the head every so often??

2. And what sort of oil do you use? Engine oil seems to be the norm, but I hear Extra Virgin Olive Oil works well even if darned expensive.

:wink :laugh


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Analysis of Oz Wine, Olive Oil and Cheese ? ....... nothing.

Cute kitten ...... Likes galore.

You people are truly pathetic.  :laugh


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Classic .... let me think back to the last time I was I in those conditions ...... hmmm ..... you might need to give me some time.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)




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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

My god man, you'll do anything for a "Like"! Have you no shame, sir?


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> Analysis of Oz Wine, Olive Oil and Cheese ? ....... nothing.


Nothing much to say. I used to believe New Zealand wine was better, but I'm not so sure that's still the case. We get some nice cheeses from King Island Dairy (just south of here) but even they don't stack up against the best from Europe (partly, but not completely, for reasons you mentioned).

Have not had much Kiwi cheese (unfortunately), but some of their olive oils (like this one) aren't too bad.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

For me... I'm probably from less cultured stock. My idea of fancy is using an olive oil infused with Lemon Myrtle on my salad with a caramelised balsamic. Getting into the various nuances which oil & which balsamic is *way* out of my league... then again, I'm still feeding four boys (three of them teenagers). "Subtle" is not something they care about when it comes to grub.

I like my tea strong (preferably Irish Breakfast), my coffee stronger (and *not* instant), and my olive oil non-rancid. Give me a few decades and I'm sure I'll refine somewhat more than that. 

That said, King Island cheeses are quite the treat. I'm sure there is better, but for the price they'd be hard to find out my way.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

tdw said:


> See ... back on topic.


Anyone else see the reflection of the Wombat in the picture?

MedSailor


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

MedSailor said:


> Anyone else see the reflection of the Wombat in the picture?
> 
> MedSailor


Hah .... even he missed it. :laugh

Pic btw, is from the Maritime museum in Lisbon, Portugal. Awesome.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

BentSailor said:


> My god man, you'll do anything for a "Like"! Have you no shame, sir?


None at all. Didn't do me much good though did it ? Guess I'll stick to .... no stop right there ..... kittens.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

BentSailor said:


> For me... I'm probably from less cultured stock. My idea of fancy is using an olive oil infused with Lemon Myrtle on my salad with a caramelised balsamic. Getting into the various nuances which oil & which balsamic is *way* out of my league... then again, I'm still feeding four boys (three of them teenagers). "Subtle" is not something they care about when it comes to grub.
> 
> I like my tea strong (preferably Irish Breakfast), my coffee stronger (and *not* instant), and my olive oil non-rancid. Give me a few decades and I'm sure I'll refine somewhat more than that.
> 
> That said, King Island cheeses are quite the treat. I'm sure there is better, but for the price they'd be hard to find out my way.


Probably ? Complete barbarians by the sounds of it. 

Oh well, at least he drinks decent tea and coffee. Given a choice twixt Irish and English breakfast I know which way I'm going. Irish craps all over English I'm afraid.

As for cheese and King Island (are you listening C ?) I'm afraid there most certainly is better. Where KI, and other comparable commercial brands, disappoint me most is with their cheddar. It is in the case of KI much too creamy and lacks bite. Cheddar of course is not hightly regarded by some but still for me a really nice cheddar, crumbly and with a bit of kick is hard to beat. KI cheese seems to have settled for the path of least consumer resistance.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I love this thread.

"Anything-Sailing Forum Down....for some wine and cheese?"


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> I love this thread.
> 
> "Anything-Sailing Forum Down....for some wine and cheese?"


A Brie interlude ?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm down for that.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

tdw said:


> A Brie interlude ?


Please, no more, I Camembert it.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Just fiished a mac and jack amber along with a king salmon dinner! no wonder there were no likes for the puppy dog until I got home......well, there will be another puppy dog on the avatar of some weird bloke from the salish sea! Oh by the way, Farr 30 worlds start near me tomorrow!
STYC fall regatta, and race your house is sunday.........

Back to your regularly scheduled IGNORE thread! Master Denby should be pleased!

marty


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Geeze.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

DRFerron said:


> Geeze.


Gauze pad ......... check
sponge ............. check
scalpel ............. check

operation ignoramous and hi-jack underway!

back to regularly scheduled operation.......

now where is me wine!irateraft:irateraft::chainsaw

Marty


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

time for me to go back to sleep!

oh, should I have done cute puppy alert first?!?!?!


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

So Alex's "new" boat is his original hull with a reconfigured stern?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sailhog said:


> So Alex's "new" boat is his original hull with a reconfigured stern?


Remember Giu's story about the kid that was in the slip next to him who chopped the whole interior out of this boat?

Giu borrowed the chainsaw.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

SD, if I remember correctly, the young man wanted "an open floor plan"... so he cut out the compression post supporting the mast... 

Amazing what you accomplish with a chainsaw and some West Systems!


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> ...
> 
> No I am not suggesting we get back On Topic .... that has surely been well and truly covered but unless we are using the most expensive oil imaginable to calm troubled waters ..... aha , but wait .....
> 
> ...


How to you mean back on topic? That seems to me a Portuguese traditional sailboat:laugh


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

PCP said:


> How to you mean back on topic? That seems to me a Portuguese traditional sailboat:laugh


Aha ... but cutting edge for it's time.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

sailhog said:


> So Alex's "new" boat is his original hull with a reconfigured stern?


OK, so it took eight pages, a dissertation on Portuguese cuisine, one cute kitten and two cute pups but in summary .... yes.

(Nice to see you mate)

This thread is pretty much the personification of irony. ( or at least I think it is .... quick quick check dictionary definition.)


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Super good to see the Super Fuzz... Didn't know you'd sailed aboard Alex's ship... I'm sure that everyone here -- myself included -- would've given their left one to be a no-see-um in the cockpit during that adventure... Two of the most distinctive and original personalities in the world of sailing yakking it up in Portugese-accented English and Australian English... I can hear it now in my mind... Does a recording exist? If so, could I get my hands on it? Perhaps you could post an audio clip on Sailnet? I'll do anything to hear it. Anything. ANYTHING!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

sailhog said:


> Super good to see the Super Fuzz... Didn't know you'd sailed aboard Alex's ship... I'm sure that everyone here -- myself included -- would've given their left one to be a no-see-um in the cockpit during that adventure... Two of the most distinctive and original personalities in the world of sailing yakking it up in Portugese-accented English and Australian English... I can hear it now in my mind... Does a recording exist? If so, could I get my hands on it? Perhaps you could post an audio clip on Sailnet? I'll do anything to hear it. Anything. ANYTHING!


I'm not at all sure I qualify but thanks for that .. I think.

Alas no recording exists of me managing to gybe the G boat all standing and being left with my arse in the water and the boat at a somewhat awkward angle of heel. According to legend Alex did put pen to paper and came up with a sketch. I of course deny such evidence does or ever did exist.


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## mikel1 (Oct 19, 2008)

SD . . I remember that story . . Wow but I think it was a saws all . . . Poor deluded guy . . Mental issues I think . . I think it was a very expensive boat also, rich family who didn't care . . Just plain wow . .


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

sailhog said:


> Super good to see the Super Fuzz... Didn't know you'd sailed aboard Alex's ship... I'm sure that everyone here -- myself included -- would've given their left one to be a no-see-um in the cockpit during that adventure... Two of the most distinctive and original personalities in the world of sailing yakking it up in Portugese-accented English and Australian English... I can hear it now in my mind... Does a recording exist? If so, could I get my hands on it? Perhaps you could post an audio clip on Sailnet? I'll do anything to hear it. Anything. ANYTHING!


YOU..HAVE..GOT..TO..BE..JOKING!!!! You're certainly on your own there, mate. I'd be running from the dock as fast as my left feet would carry me... That's certyfyed noise pollution that is!!

I can say with certainty that a hat survived the Clash of the Titans. This Symbol of Victory is proudly displayed whenever guests arrive aboard the Womboat. 

:2 boat:


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Ha .... found the incriminating evidence ....


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> Ha .... found the incriminating evidence ....


LOL!! :laugh :laugh :grin

Shame on that Evil Genius, picking on a poor Wombat like that.

PS: At least you got a hat for your trouble.. a nice hat too.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Can't tell you how happy I am that you took a camera with you! So awesome! And I love black and white photography! But that is the ****tiest photograph I have ever f--king seen! Who took that sh-tty picture?! It's so bad that it almost looks great! Like it's a drawing or something... My god, you guys look... hideous... Alcohol does that to some people... Jesus, you guys gotta stop drinking... stop drinking... just... stop... or you're going to end up looking like cartoon characters...


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

sailhog said:


> Can't tell you how happy I am that you took a camera with you! So awesome! And I love black and white photography! But that is the ****tiest photograph I have ever f--king seen! Who took that sh-tty picture?! It's so bad that it almost looks great! Like it's a drawing or something... My god, you guys look... hideous... Alcohol does that to some people... Jesus, you guys gotta stop drinking... stop drinking... just... stop... or you're going to end up looking like cartoon characters...


Actually, it does portray a much younger-looking Wombat than the one I saw last.. so IMHO it's rather flattering. :grin


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

sailhog said:


> Can't tell you how happy I am that you took a camera with you! So awesome! And I love black and white photography! But that is the ****tiest photograph I have ever f--king seen! Who took that sh-tty picture?! It's so bad that it almost looks great! Like it's a drawing or something... My god, you guys look... hideous... Alcohol does that to some people... Jesus, you guys gotta stop drinking... stop drinking... just... stop... or you're going to end up looking like cartoon characters...


You ... you .... swine you. Have you ever tried holding a selfy stick at that distance ? Sheesh. A kind sensitive bloke tries to preserve a major historical moment for the benefit of future generations and all he gets from you is abuse.

Sniff.

If you could see the twemble in my wower wip right now.

Sniff.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

sailhog said:


> Can't tell you how happy I am that you took a camera with you! So awesome! And I love black and white photography! But that is the ****tiest photograph I have ever f--king seen! Who took that sh-tty picture?! It's so bad that it almost looks great! Like it's a drawing or something... My god, you guys look... hideous... Alcohol does that to some people... Jesus, you guys gotta stop drinking... stop drinking... just... stop... or you're going to end up looking like cartoon characters...





Classic30 said:


> Actually, it does portray a much younger-looking Wombat than the one I saw last.. so IMHO it's rather flattering. :grin


Alcohol does that to some people .......


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

mikel1 said:


> SD . . I remember that story . . Wow but I think it was a saws all . . . Poor deluded guy . . Mental issues I think . . I think it was a very expensive boat also, rich family who didn't care . . Just plain wow . .


And tomorrow you can follow the deluded guy with mental issues on one of the most competitive Med races among the top of the crop, including some American top boats like Phaedo3 and some famous ones like Dorade. The race starts between 11 and 12 hours, local time (GMT+2).

Rolex Middle Sea Race

Here is the tracker:
Rolex Middle Sea Race

and an impressive list of entries, not only by its number but by the boat quality and performance:

Rolex Middle Sea Race

The Coastal race, an optional small one that is just for harm up had already been done:

They had done 13 place in corrected time (Team Cascais) and also in real time (different boats ahead and behind) beating in real time some bigger boats like a Pogo40, a Swan 51 and an Open60. Only less then 1/3 of the boats on this preparatory race.

The blew up a spinnaker without that they would have done better.

Here you can see the departure of the different classes, being Giulietta leading his group (Cascais on the sails).





and here some videos of the race taken from the boat:




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=911276132241651






__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=911746675527930



and here the guys at what they seem to do best:laugh


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Some news about the race that you can follow here:
Rolex Middle Sea Race
By the way, Mozilla does not work with the tracker, Google Chrome does.






The conditions are nothing like last year and they are typically med, first very light winds (till now) and tomorrow they will have medium headwinds. Stormy winds, also a med specialty, will stay out of this race.

As usual I am more interested on boat performance than on the racers himself even if this with boats adapted to the circumstances they can make the difference. Anyway even if there are certainly some less good sailors on this one the average is really high. Starting from Giulietta, that has a good crew, the results are just average till now.

Really good have been the results of several First (40, 40.7) several XP44 a X41, several Jboats (J122, J133, J111), the Neo 400 (that seems to me again the fastest cruiser racer), the only Sydney GTS 43, the two only Comet 45s, the only Swan 45, the only Marteen 49 the only Grand Soleil 37 and the only Solaris 42. They are doing all a great race regarding their size and type but *the list here is not by order of position*. One thing is certain, they are all way ahead Giulietta.

Badly are doing Dorade, the famous and very well crewed Scarlet Oyster, generally the Class 40 and a RM 12.60, showing that on the this conditions older heavy designs and light very beamy boats (Solo Ocean racing hull type) are not the fastest, quite the contrary.

It is going to be interesting to see what is going to happen later when they will have to go hard against the wind on the ****ty med conditions, meaning short period steep waves. I would not place my bets on the Giulietta that is going to be much more handicapped by that than the Jboats, the First the Comet or the X yachts.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

PCP said:


> And tomorrow you can follow the deluded guy with mental issues on one of the most competitive Med races among the top of the crop, .....


Paulo.. the reference to the deluded guy with mental issues was not about Alex but about one of his marina neighbours who took a chainsaw to the interior of a rather nice production boat (X yacht?? don't quite recall). Seemed to be the disturbed son of a wealthy absentee owner. It was quite a story.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

mikel1 said:


> SD . . I remember that story . . Wow but I think it was a saws all . . . Poor deluded guy . . Mental issues I think . . I think it was a very expensive boat also, rich family who didn't care . . Just plain wow . .


It seems I owe you an excuse and I apologize. I guess I am so influenced by the ambiance on another popular thread where insulting others become usual that I did not understand of what you were talking about and misunderstood what you mean.

Sorry to all for having detracted the good humor and fun that was going on this thread.

Thanks Faster to make it clear.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Thanks for sharing the Giulietta race stuff..

Like Faster said, the chainsaw guy was a mess. Alex really struggled with trying to figure out the best way to help him out. Alex was "the good guy" there, for sure.

Certainly, this is another example of how easy it is to misunderstand one another in this communication medium.

Giving one another the benefit of the doubt certainly helps


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Some more for the ones that are following the race and regarding what interests me most, performance cruising boats, meaning not pure racing boats and among them the boats with 50ft and smaller.

The Fastest among them is a Mylius 15e25, an Italian performance cruiser with a luxurious interior. An expensive boat, but a very nice one:






The second one is a Sydney GTS 43. Well this one is almost a race boat but anyway it has an interior that will suit a spartan cruiser.

Then a XP44, a less expensive boat (size by size) and one with a good cruising interior. There is one circumnavigating right now on the ARC World. I really like this one as a cruising boat. Not for everybody, but it suits for my sailing and cruising style.











Then a Martens 49, a more expensive boat and also more of a racer than of a cruiser with a more spartan interior even if one adequate for cruising.

Then a Swan 45 that is also more of a racing boat then a cruiser even if with a decent interior.

Then the first 40fter affordable boat, a J122. Before you guys start saying that this is only a racing boat let me show you that it is not, particularly on the new version that has a very nice cruising interior.






Sure it is an expensive boat but about the same as a Xyacht from the same size. A very nice performance cruiser.

Then it comes the first really affordable performance cruiser, a First 40.

Other boats that are on this leading group of performance cruisers are the two Comet 45s. The comet 45S has also a good cruising interior that you can see here, even with an incredibly black leather interior. Who would think of put black on a sailboat interior?






Surprisingly not very far that incredible Grand Soleil 37 (way ahead of one of the new Sunfast 3600) that I bet it is a very special one.

My supposition that the Open style type boat would not perform so well on light winds and tight upwind seems to be confirmed since all come behind these boats (and they are pure racing ones).

Giulietta even if far away from all these seems to be going better. The truth is that they are not probably adapted to the very particular med conditions, with very light winds and lots of upwind sailing. On regatta conditions you have always upwind and downwind sailing. Not necessarily here.

Anyway with a 40ft boat they are ahead of the famous Oyster 48 Scarlet Oyster and considerably ahead of the 55ft Dorade, both sailed with great crews.

Also ahead of some class 40 racers and many bigger boats.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Without going back to the hack up a boat thread, Not that my brain is worth anything, I am recalling it being a hanse or halberg rassy... 

As far as the sf3600......not surprised it is potentially doing as bad as it is. The 3600 and 3200 as speced, need WIND! ie over 15 knots, then they start to do something. But if in area;s that normally are in the 5-15 knot range like I sail here in the salish sea, they are not the best boat to own. Yesterdays race I was in, wind never got above 7 knots, with a low of 1.5! Then RC had gall to set a 10 mile course with a 2.5 hr time limit! I should shut up now, still po'd over that first race of three for the day.........

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Well, the Sunfast 3600 race has not been that bad, just comparatively. For instance it is not doing better than a Dufour 34e but then both boats are doing much better than a RM 1260 and about the same as Dorade.

The mass production boat that is doing better is...surprise surprise, a Bavaria 46 that is not far away from Giulietta (all on the same group of the Sunfast; Giulietta is on the head of that group that is still on the North coast of Sicily).

This has been a very particular race where on most of the time doing 5k is great and 3k not bad. Yes I pass lots of time on the med sailing at those speeds...while almost all other boats are motoring. That's mostly why I have the type of boat I have...for sailing.

More interesting stuff, the Neo 400, that last year was the fastest 40ft performance cruiser, on this conditions is slightly slower than the J122 (Artie) that is making a fantastic race (on the head of the second group, on the West coast of Sicily, way ahead of Giulietta).

But the more curious group on this race is the one that is next but far ahead from the last one (near Pantelleria Island). Ahead on that group a fast well known racing boat with a great crew, Cippa Lippa, a Cookson 50, followed by an older and much bigger 24m race boat (Grand Mistral), next Kuka light, a 42ft very fast modern race boat one that excels on heavy wind downwind sailing but that surprisingly does not seem to be much slowed on light winds (beamy boat). Truly a great design.

Then it comes a very fast racing ker40, ahead of a racing Ker43 with a the two first performance production cruisers on its heels, the Sydney 43 (also a Ker design) and the Mylius 50. Has I had said the Sydney 43 is a very spartan cruiser racer but the Mylius is a quite a luxurious boat.

This group is very interesting because it feature a lot of very different boats going very well and at about the same pace. No doubt Ker knows how to design sailboats that go fast independently of the wind and sea conditions. A great NA, a pity that we don't see more production brands asking for his services in what regards designing production boats.

I had already posted a video about the Mylius 50, that seems to me to have one of the most surprisingly good performances on the light wind conditions. This time some videos about Kuka Light, another one that surprised me, not for being fast, but for being so fast on this light conditions. Kuka light was a favorite design and I like it even more now. ;-)











Last year it had to abandon with a problem just at the end of this race but till that moment was making an incredible race. Here are some photos of the boat on last year's race and at the end of the movie some incredible photos particularly when he goes away downwind from a VOR70!!!!






Kuka light on the facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/KukaLight


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Paulo,

Is there a tracking link to this race?

marty


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Is there a tracking link to this race?
> 
> marty


Hi Marty,

Rolex Middle Sea Race

Racing as Team Cascais btw.

cheers


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Am I reading it right that they are about mid-fleet in their divisions?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Thank you fuzzy for the link.

Always interesting to see how things are going.

I also did not see an SF3600 listed int he boat roster.....probably missed it. Bene first series seems like the most popular, followed by various and sundry J-boats. Swans were also pretty popular too.

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

blt2ski said:


> Thank you fuzzy for the link.
> 
> Always interesting to see how things are going.
> 
> ...


But Marty contrary to what you mostly see on US those Swans, at least the ones that are fast and go among the fast boats, are new ones.

All those performance cruisers I was talking about previously have already finished the race. Only the third group, the one that at the time of my post was on the North coast of Sicily (where is Team Cascais and the Sunfast 3600 Here&now) have not finished yet. The Sunfast 3600, "Here & now" seems to have given up (not following the race track). Team Cascais is still at several hours from the finish.

Among the fastest group of smaller cruiser racers (that finished the race hours ago) the best was Artie, a fantastically well sailed J122 that made to the finish side by side with a very fast Sydney 46 and with a Xp44 on their tail, follows a First 45 that made a great last part of the race, a Swan 45, another Xp44, a fantastically well sailed J111 and almost side by side a Dufour 44 performance and a First 40cr. Then come the Solaris 44, a J133, a Neo 400, another j133, a C&C61, a Pogo Class40, a First 44.7, a X41, a Swan 42, an Open70, a Comet 45s, a Swan 65, a Canard 41, a First 40.7, a Comet 45s, and a Xp44.

All the above boats have done a good or very good race. Among the boats that did not finish yet we have for instance an Ocean 71, a racing Class40, a Swan 65.1 and a Open60.

A last remark for a very fast Elan 350 that is racing at the same pace of Giulietta.

Regarding compensated times you can have a look here:

http://www.sail-world.com/2015-Rolex-Middle-Sea-Race---High-drama/139374

The leader on compensated, a TP52 beat the 2nd, an older Coockson 50 by *7s*!!! on compensated time.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Paulo,

My comment regarding the First series, was really just that, there were a lot of them. I was not paying attention to the placing at the time I was looking thru the competitor listing. I was surprised to see the C&C61 listed. Only because I thought there were not too many C&C's in Europe. Much less a model with so few built! I probably glanced over the 3600 in the list without realizing I was seeing it.

As far as Swans go, I see very few of the race versions if you will over here in my area. I know there are a bunch of CS42's on the east coast obviously, but none so far in puget sound. I have seen one 45 for a year or two, then sold. Otherwise, most are older than 10-15 yrs. Probably not as competitive as newer versions. 

From my perspective, it is fun to see the newer boats being raced in other parts of the world. I look locally, there are still a LOT of older IOR boats being raced. We even still have a hobie 33, santa cruz 27? Moore 24 and some J30's still being raced in 1d around here. How old are these boats??!?!?!?!??

Marty


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Just for giggles, 
HERE is last sundays race I did. In class 1, my 85 Jeanneau is the newest boat. Shows the pretty typical style of boats raced here vs over in europe etc. I will admit, this is more of a typical beer can race. A bit more advertised than a weeknight beer can.

There are some other local races that attract some of the over 45' range, ie more in the -100 to 50 phrf and some are starting to do IRC ratings. Mostly the over 50' crowd with ratings below 0. It appears some political BS going on locally IMHO.

north and south is a bigger race with a higher grade from a what it earns to win. The amount of F30's was due to the national championship starting monday and finishing the 17th. So a warmup for that series.

Marty


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

blt2ski said:


> My thought later was, I should change the quote to something like....
> 
> Some "men at work" told me about a rock song and Vegemite sandwiches..........
> 
> ...


Happy Birthday Marty,
Here is Colin Hay the lead singer of Men at Work. He is still touring and plays some nice acoustical music.









At first I thought this would be a boring thread about another forum. But I got to hear debate about alcohol consumption, and educated about wines and olive oils.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> My comment regarding the First series, was really just that, there were a lot of them. I was not paying attention to the placing at the time I was looking thru the competitor listing. I was surprised to see the C&C61 listed. Only because I thought there were not too many C&C's in Europe. Much less a model with so few built! I probably glanced over the 3600 in the list without realizing I was seeing it.
> 
> ...


The difference in what regards cruising boats used by Americans and Europeans extends itself in what regards racing boats and cruiser racers that are used for racing but at least here it is very easy to prove that new models are much better than older ones ;-)

Regarding older Swans and new ones it is not probably it is for sure: Older Swans from previous generations are slower then new ones and that does not happen only in what regards Swans but generally in what regards all performance cruising boats and cruising boats: The last model is always slightly faster than the previous one.

By the way, look on my blog what is really a new state of the art Swan. I bet that it is going to be faster then same sized actual models and probably even faster then some bigger ones:
http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.pt/2015/10/swan-is-back-swan-50-club.html


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

jephotog said:


> Happy Birthday Marty,
> Here is Colin Hay the lead singer of Men at Work. He is still touring and plays some nice acoustical music.
> 
> 
> ...


Its seems a lot of Maggie are terrible girls. Not the same girl, but both "older women".






Hppy birthday Marty:2 boat:


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Thank you for b'day wishes. Had a fun day racing with kids as crew. Even won a beer mug FULL of beer!

I would agree MOST older manufacture have newer faster than older designs. Not sure I.can say.that about Jeanneau......example the.349 locally.Is rated slower than a w/oscott 35. Which is faster than the 36I or 379. The latter two about the same rating as.the so/sf37. My 28' Jeanneau has 50 or sail ft of sail area less than a 349, I weigh dang near half as much. I could probably.give a 349 a run for its money.

That is another day and story.

Back to driving for work.

Marty


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Here's to you Marty. Betcha that mug isn't full anymore.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

blt2ski said:


> Thank you for b'day wishes. Had a fun day racing with kids as crew. Even won a beer mug FULL of beer!
> 
> I would agree MOST older manufacture have newer faster than older designs. Not sure I.can say.that about Jeanneau......example the.349 locally.Is rated slower than a w/oscott 35. Which is faster than the 36I or 379. The latter two about the same rating as.the so/sf37. My 28' Jeanneau has 50 or sail ft of sail area less than a 349, I weigh dang near half as much. I could probably.give a 349 a run for its money.
> 
> ...


Not talking about boats of different brands (or different types of boats) but about boats of the same builder with similar cruising or racing characteristics.

I believe your 28ft boat has a rating well below the one of the Jeanneau 349 and that means it is slower or am I wrong?

By the way I was unfair regarding the Neo 400 that last year had made a hell of a race being the faster 40ft and beating the J122 (first in compensate) by a considerable time.






This year the J122 arrived first, but not for much, and I really was not understanding why because it does not seem to me that the Neo 400 has an inferior performance with light winds. Well the mystery is solved:

The Neo 400 was one of the few boats that raced on the duo category and sailing a boat duo on very light and changing winds is one of the most tiresome situation in what regards sailing, needing the sails to be permanently tuned.

After all the Neo 400 has made a great race arriving with a duo crew among the fastest 40ft cruiser racers (and bigger boats) with a full crew. Chapeau to them.

They were first on real time among the duo crews beating a racing class 40 (a boat more adapted to that type of sailing) by more than an hour. On compensated time the category was won by a First 40.7 that was about 12 hours slower on real time.

Looking again at that list of the fastest performance cruisers and cruiser racers (with some race boats on the middle) we can see how good was the performance of the boat and the duo crew face full crews on a 4 days race:

"Among the fastest group of smaller cruiser racers (that finished the race hours ago) the best was Artie, a fantastically well sailed J122 that made to the finish side by side with a very fast Sydney 46 and with a Xp44 on their tail, follows a First 45 that made a great last part of the race, a Swan 45, another Xp44, a fantastically well sailed J111 and almost side by side a Dufour 44 performance and a First 40cr. Then come the Solaris 44, a J133, a *Neo 400*, another j133, a C&C61, a Pogo Class40, a First 44.7, a X41, a Swan 42, an Open70, a Comet 45s, a Swan 65, a Canard 41, a First 40.7, a Comet 45s, and a Xp44."

The difference in real time between that very well sailed J122, with a full crew (4th overall in IRC) and the Neo 400 duo sailed was of only 2 hours and a half and that in a 4days 15 hours race.

Posted about the Neo 400 on the old thread and on my blog, a very interesting boat ;-)
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/982641-post3445.html
http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.pt/2014/11/neo-400.html


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Very cool video and post Paulo. Thanks.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Paulo,

Yes I am rated slower, but at ~40 secs a mile, not that much difference. When an SF35 is another 40 secs faster than a 349! In some conditions, yes I can do pretty well against faster rated boats, depending upon crew etc. Like last summer at a roundezvous, where I literally had the fastest time around a course, I was NFS, the others used spins. Most were 40-50' in length! I and another person who had never been on my boat, figured we would be water lined if nothing else........

At the end of a day, a faster boat should finish ahead of a slower rated boat. BUT, good sailors can also make a difference. Myself for instance, I like the 349 size etc, same as the 409, but a 409 has a slower rating by about 10 secs of the sf35. Next boat I hope to sail in the 100 phrf to a big faster, vs my current at 189. A 345 is 145. Kind of slow for a 34/35' boat, Where as the sf35 is 105, 115 for a 409. 

I know phrf is time on distance vs MOST rating rules are based Time on Time. still gives you a how much faster/slower boats are of a given size. I still think I could give a 349 a run, even at the end of the day, I am slower. 

Marty


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> At the end of a day, a faster boat should finish ahead of a slower rated boat. BUT, good sailors can also make a difference. Myself for instance, I like the 349 size etc, same as the 409, but a 409 has a slower rating by about 10 secs of the sf35. Next boat I hope to sail in the 100 phrf to a big faster, vs my current at 189. A 345 is 145. Kind of slow for a 34/35' boat, Where as the sf35 is 105, 115 for a 409.
> 
> I know phrf is time on distance vs MOST rating rules are based Time on Time. still gives you a how much faster/slower boats are of a given size. I still think I could give a 349 a run, even at the end of the day, I am slower.


FWIW, every race we sail in over here is performance handicap. That means if you're nice to the handicapper, you win - if you aren't, you lose.

At the end of the day, the big guy is, on average, always going to beat the little guy over the line.. that's just the way the physics goes and you get used to that after a while. For that reason, I find the most fun comes from getting ahead of the guy slightly ahead of you on performance ..and staying there.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Since we are being talking about racing maybe you guys would be interested by this big one, not with cruiser racers but with top racing boats with duo crews. It is a transat and it has started today. They are sailing in light winds but heading to a storm:

Transat Jacques Vabre

Interesting Sailboats: TRANSAT JACQUES VABRE STARTS TOMORROW HEADING FOR A STORM!!!
Interesting Sailboats: DUO AND SOLO TRANSATS: JACQUES VABRE 2015


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Are there the variety of boats as you hinted at in your blog? if so, this will be an interesting race as you describe from many aspects.

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

blt2ski said:


> Are there the variety of boats as you hinted at in your blog? if so, this will be an interesting race as you describe from many aspects.
> 
> Marty


Yes Marty, not hinted, all those boats from the videos are racing...and more. All racing boats are sailed by a duo. There are two classes of Multihulls, one unlimited and the other with 50ft and two classes of racing monohulls, one with 60ft and the other with 40ft. The last ones are what one can call inexpensive offshore fast racing boats: They cannot be made of carbon and cannot have a canting keel. The racing 40ft Pogo (that has the same hull of the cruising Pogo 12.50) is one of them.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Marty take a look at the tracker and you will see a very curious thing (connect the wind on top of the tracker):

Transat Jacques Vabre

It seems they are not all sailing to the same place. While all the multihulls chose to stay away from the storm as much as they could most of the Monohulls go looking for the stormy winds as a way of sailing faster (and among them some on foils).

It is going to be interesting to see how they will surf the storm, but one thing is for sure: big balls on all of those guys that head for a storm to sail faster.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Hopefully they get some serious speed from the wind. As I would see continuing to go south, yes slower in speed, but still potentially getting to the finish quicker......will be interesting to see how this works out.

Marty


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Not sure how current the tracker is, but it appears the BIG multihulls have chosen the better path, at least from those boats perspectives.

How big is the Douro valley? does it go into spain? saw a spanish Douro wine along with purchasing a Portuguese version tonight.....about 930 pm where I am on the left coast of US/North America. 

Marty


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

PCP said:


> It seems a bit odd to me because on the bottles label there is no indication of the acidity. Acidity is the main indicator of olive oil quality and it is mandatory to have it on the label on all olive oil bottles produced on EU. It seems to be a big factory with de luxe presentation and this one seems to be the one with more international prices, but they are kind of odd, all on countries that don't have a mediterranean olive oil culture.


Since we were on the topic (once upon a time), I've been having a look around the usual suppliers down here (the local supermarket.. ) and cannot see any reference to acidity on any of the bottles of olive oil readily available here - even the ones proudly sporting "Product of Spain" etc. etc. on the label... and FWIW I doubt I could find a bottle of Azeite outside of the Victoria Market...and perhaps not even there.

Not sure what's going on. Maybe it's only rubbish that's being imported and then being mixed and re-bottled here?? Scary stuff.. :eek


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Classic30 said:


> Since we were on the topic (once upon a time), I've been having a look around the usual suppliers down here (the local supermarket.. ) and cannot see any reference to acidity on any of the bottles of olive oil readily available here - even the ones proudly sporting "Product of Spain" etc. etc. on the label... and FWIW I doubt I could find a bottle of Azeite outside of the Victoria Market...and perhaps not even there.
> 
> Not sure what's going on. Maybe it's only rubbish that's being imported and then being mixed and re-bottled here?? Scary stuff.. :eek


Not so scary because if it says extra virgin (virgem) it has an acidity under 0.8 and if it says virgin it has an acidity under 2%

If it has a low acidity but it does not say it is Extra virgin don't buy it, it means that is taken out with chemicals and it is a bad azeite.

In Portugal for home we only use extra virgem that here is incredibly cheap. I guess that in Australia a good quality bottle (750cm3) has to cost about 9, 10 Euros. A very good one about 12, 15 euros.

You can see the quality by the price, in most cases it works.

The one I use at breakfast in toasts is a biological extra fine with 0.3 of acidity.

You can always buy directly to the producer and give some (small bottles) as Christmas gifts:

Olive Products - Beira Interior

Explore the site, they send Portuguese delicacies to all world: Small country huge variety. It is mostly used by Portuguese abroad, that are many.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Classic30 said:


> Not sure what's going on. Maybe it's only rubbish that's being imported and then being mixed and re-bottled here?? Scary stuff.. :eek


It probably is... From Forbes:
The Scam Of Olive Oil, And Its Antidote


> A scam, meaning it probably contains less actual olive oil than you'd ever imagine. A scam, meaning it's likely been mixed with colorants and other less expensive oils like sunflower-seed oil. A scam, meaning you really have not been getting what you paid for.


There's a cool store here, Bill's Imported Foods, run by this nice older Greek couple. They import olive oil in 3 liter tins and have quite a variety. I usually get their house brand, $25 for 3 liters, acidity 0.1% to 0.6%.

I doubt I have the palate to distinguish among the really high end olive oils, but even a philistine like me can taste the difference between the good stuff and the mystery supermarket olive oils.

To keep this sailing related: Bill's has poster-size prints of Greek islands decorating the store, many featuring sailboats.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

'To keep this sailing related: Bill's has poster-size prints Greek islands decorating the store, many featuring sailboats.'
Nice touch ,Min . Keeping close to topic is good. Not like some threads that become so asscidic. Nothing wrong with your palet either.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Minnesail said:


> It probably is... From Forbes:
> The Scam Of Olive Oil, And Its Antidote
> ...
> I doubt I have the palate to distinguish among the really high end olive oils, but even a philistine like me can taste the difference between the good stuff and the mystery supermarket olive oils.
> ....


That is true that there is a lot of scams related with olive oil and that unless you are in Portugal or Spain if it is not expensive probably it is not good but that Gal that wrote the article really don't understand anything about Olive oil:

"About that taste? Prepare yourself. Real olive oil - the good stuff - will be powerful and peppery and it will catch in your throat. You may cough, your eyes may water. But these are in fact good indications that what you're tasting - finally! - is authentic. It is also full of the reasons, especially flavor and health, that we were drawn to olive oil in the first place."

That is the worse description I have heard about the taste of olive oil. In fact there are different types of Extra virgin olive oil for different cuisine uses being the more soft the one that you eat on salads or on toasts at the breakfast and that one is really tasty and soft.

She talks about a 2 year validity but a good Olive oil is better on the first year. Sure it is not going to get "spoiled" since it is a natural conversant, but it is not as good.

And yes, I believe you could tell the difference between a very high quality one and a medium high quality one. The main difference is that on very high quality ones you can differentiate clearly between them, not that one or other is better but you can really tell the difference in what regards very subtle flavors.

Here you have a good description between the differences between the different types of Olive oils:

Tipos de Azeite


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Classic30 said:


> l... and FWIW I doubt I could find a bottle of Azeite outside of the Victoria Market...and perhaps not even there.


Translation C. I don't speak Portuguese but from what I can gather .....

Azeite is loosely translated as Oil ... so Azeite Virgem Extra = Extra Virgin Olive Oil though I doubt the Portuguese would be entirely happy given that they don't really consider Olive Oil to be oil as such, or so it seems to me. I guess Olive Juice might be a closer fit?

One of those difficult areas where no matter how hard you try you can never get an entirely satisfactory translation.

Nonetheless, to all those lovely Iberian, Italian, Greek souls who supply us with the good stuff I say a hearty thank you. While there is still enough English and Irish blood flowing through my veins for me to love butter I really cannot conceive of cooking without Olive Oil.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

PCP said:


> That is true that there is a lot of scams related with olive oil and that unless you are in Portugal or Spain if it is not expensive probably it is not good but that Gal that wrote the article really don't understand anything about Olive oil:
> 
> "About that taste? Prepare yourself. Real olive oil - the good stuff - will be powerful and peppery and it will catch in your throat. You may cough, your eyes may water. But these are in fact good indications that what you're tasting - finally! - is authentic. It is also full of the reasons, especially flavor and health, that we were drawn to olive oil in the first place."
> 
> ...


Paulo, to give you an idea of the marketing used over here, here's a couple of examples of what most Australians would think of when you speak of "Olive Oil":

Moro Olive Oil - Products
Products | Carbonell

Whether anything they sell could be classed as true azeite or not is difficult to know, but I suspect they're really all a mix of refined oil and maybe a second pressing or something, because the difference between these and an Australian first-pressed oil is big indeed.

(These examples are not the worst BTW, just the most common..).


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Classic30 said:


> Paulo, to give you an idea of the marketing used over here, here's a couple of examples of what most Australians would think of when you speak of "Olive Oil":
> 
> Moro Olive Oil - Products
> Products | Carbonell
> ...





> The answer lies in the new Australian Standard 5264, adopted in July 2011 after years of consultation involving parties such as the federal Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, and grower groups. For the first time, the standard prescribes precisely what Australia expects in its olive oil. Namely, if the label says extra virgin olive oil, then the contents should be just that: pure, unadulterated olive juice made from fruit pressed within 24 hours of picking.


The above is from an article in The Australian from 2012. It mentiones both Moro and Deoleo as two of the worst offenders when dumping inferior Olive Oil onto the Oz market. Whether they have cleaned up their acts I cannot say though I did have a bottle of Moro Extra Virgin on board (only thing I could find at the time) and it was OK. Certainly not rancid and had a pleasant enough flavour. Yes I've had better but this was a long way from being the worst.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> The above is from an article in The Australian from 2012. It mentiones both Moro and Deoleo as two of the worst offenders when dumping inferior Olive Oil onto the Oz market. Whether they have cleaned up their acts I cannot say though I did have a bottle of Moro Extra Virgin on board (only thing I could find at the time) and it was OK. Certainly not rancid and had a pleasant enough flavour. Yes I've had better but this was a long way from being the worst.


Thanks, A. Oils ain't oils, but I'll admit that a bottle of either Moro or Carbonell is a regular part of the cooking in our household. Yep, had better certainly - but pleasant enough as you say and the price is hard to beat.

..though I'm seriously considering getting a bottle or two of that fine Portugee stuff Paulo linked to. Just to see how it stacks up.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Classic30 said:


> Thanks, A. Oils ain't oils, but I'll admit that a bottle of either Moro or Carbonell is a regular part of the cooking in our household. Yep, had better certainly - but pleasant enough as you say and the price is hard to beat.
> 
> ..though I'm seriously considering getting a bottle or two of that fine Portugee stuff Paulo linked to. Just to see how it stacks up.


There is no way i'd try to convince you otherwise but I'm quite sure the best Oz is pretty close to the best Euro. I know that may sound like heresy to Paulo but I think it is fair comment. Cobrams does seem to be top of the heap but I have had comparable from other producers. Otoh, I must say that when I've had it, a really good Spanish or Portuguese gets my taste buds all a tingle.

Like wines to some extent. Australia indisputably produces some truly outstanding wines but I still understand that in many ways those damned Europeans have it nailed just a wee bit tighter. :laugh

Seriously, we do produce some great wines but our reds tend to be overly heavy and some of our whites are pure excrement ... Sauvignan Blanc I am talking to you .....


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

tdw said:


> Sauvignan Blanc I am talking to you .....


Talking to it is generally a good sign you've had too much of it 

That said, given some of the Aussie Sauvignon Blanc I've tried recently, a glass of that stuff counts as "too much".

_(I may not know olive oils the way you two do, but I do like a good drop of wine  )_


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

[/QUOTE]


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

tdw said:


> we do produce some great wines but our reds tend to be overly heavy


I like a good Australian Shiraz that really gets in there and rips out a tooth or two on its way down.

(I really do like Australian Shiraz, just kidding about the tooth pulling comment.)


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> There is no way i'd try to convince you otherwise but I'm quite sure the best Oz is pretty close to the best Euro. I know that may sound like heresy to Paulo but I think it is fair comment. Cobrams does seem to be top of the heap but I have had comparable from other producers. Otoh, I must say that when I've had it, a really good Spanish or Portuguese gets my taste buds all a tingle.
> ....


I don't doubt that the best Cobram, the ones that they send to international contests is close to the Portuguese best and probably as good as the high quality Portuguese one but I doubt very much that the thing you can buy has anything to do with that stuff.

It happens the same with any big Portuguese company, like Galo or Oliveira da Serra. Sure they have the stuff to win international contests but it is not the stuff they sell in quantity on their commercial bottles.

What Portugal has and I am pretty sure Australia desn't are many small producers, farm producers, whose families make high quality azeite since hundreds of years ago.

Those have small productions and when they go to contests (if they go) they go with what they produce, not some very small batch that has no relation with a huge industrial production, that is the same product they sell commercially.

From those I am quite sure you can buy much better olive oil then the one you will be able to buy on the supermarket from any big industrial producer, being it Portuguese, Spanish or Australian.

Classic 30, look carefully to the many offers on that site I sent to you, look on the provinces of Beira Litoral, Beira Alta, Ribatejo, Douro and Alentejo where the best Azeites are produced and you will find many small farm producers with high quality products that produce not only Azeite but also wine. Maybe they acept to send you a mixed box with Azeite and wine.

Many of those quintas offer also rooms in what is called here rural tourism and some of them even allow the participation of "tourists" on traditional rural activities.

In Portugal, not many years ago on all small "quintas" (small farms) each farmer produced his own wine and his own azeite, like on my grand mother's "quinta". It would not be a proper farmer if he doesn't produce Azeite and wine that are the two more characteristic products of our gastronomic culture, maybe au pair with enchidos, presunto and queijo.
http://www.casaanadia.pt/en/
Quinta da Serrinha
Quinta da Alorna - Vinhos - Quinta da Alorna - Azeite Virgem Extra - Branco - 2011
Quinta da Terrincha - Vinho, Azeite, Queijo, Restaurante, Turismo - Torre de Moncorvo, Douro Vinhateiro, Portugal
apresentacao @ Quinta da Sequeira
Quinta da Romaneira
Bem Vindo à Quinta da Barroca
História | Quinta da Nespereira

There are a huge number of small producers and that's where you can have the good stuff, not from the Industrial big brands.

*By the way talking about sailing*: the Transat has been hard. One trimaran capsized, other broken, several of the new Open60 on foils with broken foils and limping home...and more hard stuff ahead (in 20 hours). Many big balls monohull racers went just right to the storm to sail faster...if they can survive it without breaking the boats Interesting stuff here:

Tanguy de Lamotte, skipper Initiatives Heart (IMOCA):""It is going well. Let's say it's pretty invigorating sailing conditions. You are jumping waves when you are over 20kts....Charlie Dalin, co-skipper of Queguiner - Leukemia Espoir (IMOCA): "To move around the boat on deck you are soaked. There was a lot of wind, between 30 and 40 knots. We are very happy with our position, everything is fine on board. We sleep well since the start of the race even if sometimes a little one gets "airtime" in the bunks...Vincent Riou, PRB skipper IMOCA: " "Like every day, it's war. The boat is making 20kts and we have to be on it all the time.

Great race for the 40class racers that even being "cheap" racers and small are not far away from the Open 60's. I guess ****ty weather is a great equalizer LOL. The %0ft trimarans are doing about the same speed as the Open60's and only the Maxi trimarans went away but at the cost of some causalities:





Jour 2 - Helitreuillage de R. Jourdain et L... _por TransatJacquesVabre_





Jour 2 - Bureau Vallée (IMOCA) - Transat... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

http://tracking.transat-jacques-vabre.com/fr/
http://www.transat-jacques-vabre.com/en


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## SeaDubya (Sep 5, 2015)

I went back and forth about posting this on here (I am sure mods love it when users talk about other forums on their forums). But I always notice that there is this inherent flaw in most forums (not just sailing ones) where the OP is normally trying to get information. They get this information, but it is sometimes lost in the talk, even if there are no hijackings going on. Then days, weeks, months, or even years later someone else stumbles onto the thread and has to sift through untold amounts of data ordered chronologically.

So today I wanted to start a test and hope some of the frequent Sailnet posters would assist me. Activity may be low as I just put it up today, but I want to try a different kind of forum, dedicated to my favorite thing (sailing) to keep it uniform.

Here are some of the differences that you can expect:

Community members can up- and down-vote posts and responses
OP's can mark as post as a solution to their question, which brings that response to the top of the list
Users can sort responses to an OP post by newest, oldest, or most votes, allowing them to easily sift through responses
Little to no moderation from admins, the community democratically keeps abusive and or incorrect behavior in check by down-voting their responses.
Auto-suggests existing posts that may match before a user starts a discussion, hopefully reducing over-duplication of questions

I'm not sure if any other sailing forums use this format, but I figured this post would be a good place to start. My apologies if pointing users to an alternative forum angers the mods, just interested to see if self-moderation really works.

Please leave your thoughts on this post on the forum, thanks!

Also, sorry for hijacking your hijacked thread =)


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

SeaDubya said:


> (I am sure mods love it when users talk about other forums on their forums).
> 
> I'm not sure if any other sailing forums use this format, but I figured this post would be a good place to start. My apologies if pointing users to an alternative forum angers the mods, just interested to see if self-moderation really works.


I know of one other forum where this was tried and it was an unmitigated disaster. Ended up with the forum owner siezing control and banning pretty much all the contributors. That forum was vaguely instrumental in the establishment of A-S.

Oh yes .... and no we don't really care about people mentioning other forums as long as it is not for purely commercial reasons.


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## SeaDubya (Sep 5, 2015)

tdw said:


> I know of one other forum where this was tried and it was an unmitigated disaster.


Does it still exist? Would like to check it out.

I'm not against some moderation. I am mainly shooting for the 'mark as answer' and voting abilities to make more relevant posts appear more prominently. Finding a good balance between those two might help with noob sailors gleaning basic answers to basic questions much faster. Also the system will automatically suggest existing posts when users start typing a discussion topic, hopefully preventing the over-duplication of questions. I think testing these things would be a good idea even if the whole "democracy voting" thing fails.

So hopefully I can get a bunch of people on there to see if we either break it or get it to be effective.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

you can still buy a hat

Anything Sailing Store, The Companion Store to the Anything Sailing Forum


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

SeaDubya said:


> Does it still exist? Would like to check it out.


The forum I believe our fuzzy friend is referring to is no longer in existence.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

SeaDubya said:


> Does it still exist? Would like to check it out.
> 
> I'm not against some moderation. I am mainly shooting for the 'mark as answer' and voting abilities to make more relevant posts appear more prominently. Finding a good balance between those two might help with noob sailors gleaning basic answers to basic questions much faster. Also the system will automatically suggest existing posts when users start typing a discussion topic, hopefully preventing the over-duplication of questions. I think testing these things would be a good idea even if the whole "democracy voting" thing fails.
> 
> So hopefully I can get a bunch of people on there to see if we either break it or get it to be effective.


nah ... dead and buried.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

SeaDubya said:


> ,,, Also the system will automatically suggest existing posts when users start typing a discussion topic, hopefully preventing the over-duplication of questions. ....


That actually would be a good idea but how would you implement that in an automatic way?


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## SeaDubya (Sep 5, 2015)

PCP said:


> That actually would be a good idea but how would you implement that in an automatic way?


It's already implemented. On the screen where you create a discussion (as in any forum) you naturally create the title of the post, normally a question or statement of sorts. When you tab (or click) to another part of the page, a search is ran in the background for the keywords you just typed and then a selection of relevant text matches is inserted just below the title text box. Click on one and it takes you away to that post instead of creating a new one.

Go create an account and try it. There are a few starter posts on there now and if you go create a discussion and name the title 'baking a cake' I doubt anything will show up. But then if you type something with words that are part of the text of the three posts I already created, it should show at least one of them.

It will be interesting to see if it works well enough to help reduce duplicate postings.


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