# Updated Offshore Cruising Boat List - January 2008



## sab30

I have the updated boat list from Mahina Expeditions. The last list was dated2002 posted on the website and this is the new revised (January 2008) list. I will see if I can upload here as it is not yet available on the site.

I get an invalid file..can someone direct me how to update. It is a simple doc file.

Thanks


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## camaraderie

The Mahina list is below in post #6. I will attempt to add other widely agreed on bluewater boats to my post #8 below using experienced cruisers opinions who have owned the boats, and fellow mods to cull out boats with serious bluewater FULL TIME cruising deficiencies. If you disagree with a boat listed...make your case on the thread! If you believe a specific boat should be included AND you have *personally* cruised it extensively in blue water make your case as well. I am not attempting to dictate which boats are blue water...only to list MY opinions about some boats that are not listed. You are free to list your own opinions on this thread as well. 
*Please DO NOT use this thread to ask questions about WHETHER a boat you are considering buying is a blue water boat. Start a new thread. *


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## labatt

Their online list from April of 2007 doesn't have the Passport 40. Last time I checked, the Passport 40 was supposed to be a fair to middlin' (or excellent) Bluewater transoceanic boat... but to each their own.


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## camaraderie

Yep...I think he has a thing against Taiwan built boats as none of the Tayanas are there either. Must be a grudge or something as I know of no one else that would not include Tayanas and Passports as bluewater vessels. 
Still...a good list to direct newbies to.


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## bestfriend

labatt said:


> Their online list from April of 2007 doesn't have the Passport 40. Last time I checked, the Passport 40 was supposed to be a fair to middlin' (or excellent) Bluewater transoceanic boat... but to each their own.


Passport 40's are crap. Their value should be downgraded to something I can afford!

I looked at 2 the other day with different layouts, I liked your layout better.


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## sab30

Your right neither boat still makes the list. Im trying the cut and paste..sorry if it doesnt work.

Boats to Consider for Offshore Cruising

Updated January 2008

Through our Weekend Offshore Cruising Seminars and personal consultation I have helped thousands of sailors locate the best ocean cruising boats for their planned voyages and budget. If you need knowledgeable, experienced (257,000+ ocean miles) and unbiased advise from someone who has no financial interest in the boat you select perhaps I can help. Details on www.mahina.com/consult.html or by contacting John Neal at Mahina Expeditions, [email protected], tel 360.378.6131.

*Monohulls*
* Able* 32, 42, 48 ** USA* Superb quality, expensive. Chuck Paine designs.
* Alajuela* 33 ** USA* Good value, well built
* Alberg *35 ** USA* Early f /g boats. Well proven, not expensive.Narrow, short waterlines, graceful overhangs.
* Alden *38, 43, 44, 46, 48, 54, 58 *USA * Classy, well built, beautiful & expensive.
* Allied* 30, 32, 33, 35, 36, 39, 42 ** USA* Good value. Functional, practical.
* Amel* 36 53 www.amel.fr *FRA* Strong, well designed. Excellent passagemaker, great value. Low maintenance.
* Amazon* 29, 37, 44 ** CAN* Steel boats, attractive modern designs.
* Amphitrite* 43 ** FRA* Waquiez built, strong & roomy with good storage.Odd deck design, but great boat and good 
value.
* Annie* 28 ** USA* Every boat built by Morris is a work of art!
* Bayfield* 29, 30 32, 40 ** CAN* Good value. A bit "plasticy" interiors but ok.
* Bluewater* 60 ** USA* Modern, top quality Chuck Paine design.
* Bowman* 36 58 ** ENG* Strong boats. Excellent passagemakers.
* Brewer* 42 ** CAN * Improved version of Whitby 42.
* Bristol* 27 45 ** USA * Good boats. Later models were better quality.
* Bristol Channel Cutter* 28 *USA* Well built, not my personal choice. Good company.
* Cabot* 36 ** CAN* Ted Brewer design
* Cal *2 30, 34, 36, 39, 40, 2 46, 3 46, 48 ** USA * Bill Lapworth designs. Many 2-46's have circumnavigated. 
Comfortable, reasonably priced but look very carefully at bulkhead attachment.
* Caliber* 28, 33, 35, 38, 40 www.caliberyacht.com *USA *Fairly well built. Michael McCreary designs.
The 47 is not an attractive boat.
* Cambria* 40, 44, 46 ** USA* Fast, well built, gorgeous and expensive.
* Camper Nicholson *31, 32, 35, 38, 39, 40, 43, 47, 56, 58, 70 ** ENG* Out of business except for shipbuilding. 
Watch for serious blister problems on all models.
* Cabo Rico* 34, 36, 38, 40, 42, 45, 47, www.caborico.com *CRI* Crelock and Paine designs. Expensive, semi custom.
* Cape Dory* all models ** USA* All models are well designed & built.
* Cape George Cutters* 31, 36, 38 *USA* Some owner completed. Strong & fast. Sometimes great value.
* Cascade* 36, 42 *USA* 1965-67 design still being built. Narrow. Many owner-finished.
* Centurion by Wauquiez* (not Beneteau) 36-59 *FRA* Centurion's built before Wauquiez sold to Beneteau are solid, 
but w/limited tankage. Later Beneteau-built models are not appropriate or impressive
except for dockside living.
* Cherubini* 44, 48, 62 ** USA* Semi custom boats. Beautiful, great sailing& expensive 
* Contessa* 26 & 32 ** CAN, ENG* Tania Aebi & B.J. Caldwell both circumnavigated in 26's.
* Contest* 31, 35, 36, 38, 40, 41, 42, 44, 46, 48, 55, 60 www.contestyacts.com *HOL* More common in Europe. 
Well built, new boats are very attractive.
* Countess* 44 by Pearson ** USA* Ancient John Alden design. 
* Corbin* 39 ** CAN* Roomy and strong, but watch for hull blisters.
* Crealock* 31, PH 32, 34, 37, 40, 44 by Pacific Seacraft ** USA* Good value and well built. Graceful overhangs, 
canoe sterns, short waterlines means these boats may hobbyhorse upwind.
* CSY* 37, 44 ** USA* Sturdy, roomy & reasonably priced but old.
* Dana* 24 by Pacific Seacraft *USA* An solid and expensive (for the size) slow pocket ocean cruiser.
* Deerfoot Yachts* ** Var* Fast & innovative, aluminum & fiberglass hulls.
* Dickerson* 36, 37, 40, 41, 50 ** USA* Nicely proportioned & well built boats. Earlier 36's are very reasonably priced.
* Durbeck* 46 ** USA* Big and roomy, long overhangs, short waterline.
* Endurance* 35, 38, 40 ** Var* Peter Ibold design, some owner completed. Built by various yards in ENG, 
USA & Canada.
* Esprit* 37 by Nordic ** USA* Perry design. Comfortable, well proven, good value.
* F & C* 44 ** ARG* Modem Frers designed cruising ketch.
* Farr* Pilot House 50, 56, 60, 63 www.farr-pilothouseyachts.com *SWE* Sexy, powerful, fast and glamorous. 
Excellent quality.First boats were built by Najad.
* Fast Passage* 39 *USA* Some built in Canada, some by Tollycraft. WA. Excellent boat.
* Fisher* 30 46 *ENG* Sturdy and slow motorsailers. Great for high latitude cruising.
* Flicka* 20 *USA* Solidly built Mini ocean cruiser, but slow, slow, slow.
* Francis* 26 ** USA* Beautiful design from Morris, an excellent yard.
* Fraser* 41, 46, 50 ** CAN* Good modem cruisers.
* Freya* 39 ** USA* Good value. Many owner-completed, so quality varies. FAST, full-keel design capable of 200 mpd!
* Garcia* 46-50+ *FRA* Gorgeous, fast, semi custom, high quality aluminum.
* Gladiateur* 33 ** FRA* Very sturdy, short on tankage, Waquiez built.
* Goderich* 35, 37,41 ** CAN* Attractive Brewer steel boats. Short production run.
* Gozzard* 31, 36, 44 *CAN* Good design & construction. Totally committed quality company.
* Hallberg-Rassy*, 31,312,33,35,352,36,38,382,39,41,42,42F,43,45,46,49,53,62www.hallberg-rassy.com *SWE* 
Well built, comfortable, with good tankage & storage. Newer Frers designs have better 
sailing performance than earlier Enderlien boats. Excellent resale value. Excellent 
systems integration and detail.
* Halmatic* 30 ** ENG* Similar to Nicholson 31. Watch for blisters.
* Hinkley* 30-64 *USA* Attractive, highest quality, and expensive. Hold theirvalue well. Modest tankage & storage.
* Hood* 38 ** FRA* Waquiez built, Hood design. Strong, fast, & attractive. Short on tankage. 
Centerboard rattles downwind. Solid choice.
* Hylas* 46,49, 54, 54 Raised Saloon *TAI* Frers & S & S designs. Good sailing qualities, tankage & storage. High 
quality on later Jachney-era models.
* Island Packet* 32, 35, 350, 37,38, 40, 420, 44, 45 www.ipy.com *USA* Roomy & comfortable with good tankage 
& storage but some odd features. Continually improving. Good value, exc. company.
*J-Boats*/32, J/42; J/44, J/46, J/160 www.jboats.com *USA* Fast, light. Excellent sailing performance. Minimal 
tankage and storage. Fast downwind, pound heavily upwind. Ck keels!
* Jason* 35 from Miller Marine ** USA* Some owner completed. Several have cruised extensively.
* Jongert* 50, 55, 60, 67, 73 *HOL* Heavy, expensive, extremely well built steel and aluminum yachts. Not going 
to win any races, though!
* Justine* 36 ** USA* Gorgeous Paine design, Morris built cruiser. 
* Kaiulani* 34, 38 ** USA* Lovely steel Brewer & Yohe designs. Very limited production.
* Kanter* 42, 45, 60, 65 www.kanteryachts.com *CAN* Steel & aluminum boats, semi custom. Highest Quality. 
Chuck Paine & Ted Brewer designs.
* LM* 27, 28, 290, 30, 315, 32, 380 *DEN* Some have inside steering. Well built and impressive.
* Linda* 28 ** USA* Gorgeous design, Morris quality.
* Leigh* 30 ** USA* Very well built, attractive Morris.
* Little Harbor* 42-90 *TAI & USA* Ted Hood designed, heavy displacement. Semi custom. Expensive and solid as 
a rock.
* Luders* 33, DOVE ** USA* Older, well built by Allied.
* Malo* 36, 38, 39, 45 www.maloyachts.se *SWE* Quality offshore boats with good sailing performance. 
Attractive, reasonably priced. Strong company, good service.
* Mariah* 31 ** USA* At least one circumnavigation. Pacific Seacraft built.
* Mason* 33, 43, 44, 53, 54, 63 ** TAI *Some of the very best Taiwan built boats.
* Mercator* 30 ** USA* Inexpensive, obscure. One has circumnavigated
* Moody* 38, 42 , 47, 54, 64 www.moody.co.uk ** ENG* Good designs but some quality-control issues.
* Morgan* 382, 383 ** USA* Excellent Ted Brewer design for around $60K.
* Morris* 26, 28, 30, 32, 34,36, 42, 44, 45, 454, 46, 48.6, 52 www.morrisyachts.com *USA* Chuck Paine design. 
Superb quality, highest quality US yard building cruising boats. Expensive. Semi-custom.
* Mystic* 57, 60 ** ENG* Dubois design, Bowman built, beautiful.
* Najad* 330, 361, 370, 390, 420, 490, 520 www.najad.com *SWE *Quality, attractive boats. Excellent sailing
performance. Good tankage, storage and high level of craftsmanship.
* Nauti Cat Motorsailers* 35,40,43, 53, www.nauticat.com *FIN* Later S & S designed models are much better
performers than earlier tubby models.
* Niagara* 31, 35, 42 ** CAN* Well built & roomy. Superb value.
* Nordic* 34,40,44,45 ** USA* Attractive boats, some solvable problems with mast step deflection on the 40 & 45.
* Norseman* 400,447 ** TAI* Strong, fast, and attractive. Have held their value well.
* North Wind* 43,50, 58 [email protected] *SPA* S&S designs, quality construction, good company.
* Ocean* 60, 71 ** ENG* Powerful boats, many have had blister problems
* Ocean Cruising* 42 ** USA* Only a few built by Hank Hinkley. Classy.
* Orion* 27 ** USA* Offshore capable. Pacific Seacraft built.
* Oyster* 42, 45, 485,49,53, 55, 56 61, 62, 63, 66, 70, 82, 100 www.oystermarine.com *ENG NZL* Some have 
inside steering. Attractive, expensive and first class! Weak resale value and larger
models make this an excellent, though expensive choice.
* Pacific Seacraft* 34, 37, 40, 44 ** USA* Well built boats, good resale. Graceful overhangs.
* Pearson* 35, 365, 422, 424, 520 ** USA* Fairly well built, not flashy but reasonably priced.
* Passport* 41, 415, 435, 44, 456, 470, 50 www.wagnerstevens.com *TAI* Modem Perry cruising design. Good
storage/tankage.
* Pretorien* 35 ** FRA* Strong, fast & attractive. Built by Waquiez. Best value for a boat under $85,000. 
Modest tankage.
* Rhodes Bounty* II ** USA* Ancient Pearson fiberglass design, classic but very old, so will need tons of upgrading. 
Is it worth it?
* Regina of Vindo*, 38, 43, 49 www.reginayachts.se *SWE* Attractive, well built, quality deck saloon. In a class of 
their own for quality and design.
* Rival* 36 41 ** ENG* Strong, good-looking and sailing boats.
* Rustler* 36, 42 *ENG* Totally impressive, quality boat and company.
* Sabre *34, 362,38, 402, 42, 402, 425, 452, www.sabreyachts.com *USA* Built in Maine, great quality, but limited
tankage and storage.
* Sadler *34 ** ENG* Unsinkable, fast, great performance. Good choice.
* Saga* 35, 43, 48 www.sagayachts.com ** CAN* Modern Perry design. Fast innovate and narrow. The 43 is a 
very tried and proven design.
* Santa Cruz* 52 *USA* Strong, fast and fun!
* Saturna* 33 ** CAN* Attractive, Bill Garden designed pilothouse cutter.
* Scanmar* 35 ** SWE* Limited production but good design.
* Sceptre* 41, 43 *CAN* Modem pilothouse with good performance.
* Seawind* 30, Seawind II 32' ** USA* Excellent boats. Good value. First. Built by Allied Yachts
* Seguin* 44, 51 *USA* S & S design. Excellent boats. Semi Custom.
* Shannon* 32, 36, 39, 43,43 II, 47, 53. www.shannonyachts.com *USA* Good reliable boats. Hold their value well.
* Skye* 51 ** TAI *Similar in appearance to Swans. Deck problems.
* Southern Cross *28, 31, 35, 39 ** USA* Good boats. Attractive designs. Fairly well built.
* Spencer* 35, 42, 44, 54 ** CAN* Older, solid boats, built in Vancouver, B.C.
* Stellar* 52 *TAI *Total quality S&S design, well built, great detail work.
* Sundeer* 56, 64 ** USA* Excellent & expensive. Innovative design & incredible performance. Good systems layout.
Built by TPI.
* Swan* *FIN* Newest designs aren't well suited for ocean cruising.
* Shearwater *39, 45 *RSA* Strong, traditional and attractive.
Sweden Yachts www.swedenyachts.se *SWE *Expensive & well built. Racer cruiser designs, short on tankage 
and storage.
* Tartan* 3500, 37, 3700, 41, 4100, 4600, www.tartanyachts.com ** USA* Well proven several 37's have
circumnavigated. Some designs have centerboards.
* Taswell* 43, 49, 56, 58, 60, 72 www.yachtworld.com/taswell *TAI* Quality, attractive, good sailing performance.
Excellent tankage, storage and design.
* Tashiba* 31, 36, 40 ** TAI* Perry designs. From the best yard in Taiwan.
* Topper Hermanson* 40+ ** USA* Semi custom steel or aluminum Van de Stadt designs.
* Trintella HOL* Roomy and well built. Newer designs are aluminum and exp.
* Triton* 29 by Pearson ** USA* Good value, sturdy. Earliest F/g production boat.
* Valiant* 32, 37, 39, 40, 42, 47, 50 www.sailnet.com/valiant *USA* Major blister problems on Valiant 40 hull numbers
116 250. No problems with any of the excellent Texas built boats. Proven designs, strong
company.
* Vancouver* 27 ** CAN* Also built in Taiwan & England.
* Vangard 32* ** USA* Good value. Phil Rhodes design, built by Pearson
* Vega* 27, by Albin Marine ** SWE* At least six have circumnavigated. Inexpensive, fast.
* Victoria* 30, 34* ENG* Chuck Paine design, Morris built.
* Vindo* 29, 34, 38, 39 *SWE* Attractive, well built, but high maintenance.
* Vineyard Vixen* 30, 34 ** USA* Attractive design.
* Westerly* 26 36 *ENG* Not flashy, but fairly well built boats.
* Westsail *28, 32, 39, 42, 43 ** USA* Sturdy boats. 39's are rare & attractive. Perry design.
* Whitby* 42, 44 *CAN* Brewer designs that sell for $85 120k. Good value. Roomy and fairly well built.
* Windship* *USA* Expensive custom boats.
* Yankee* 26, 30 ** USA* S & S designed. Inexpensive and capable. Great value.

* Catamarans*
* Atlantic* 42, 55 www.chriswhitedesigns.com *RSA* Chris White design, quality construction.
* Catana* 401, 431, 471, 521 *FRA* Good design, but customer service lacks on delivery
* Dean* 441 *RSA* Modern, solid, and fast.
* Foutntaine Pajot* 38, 43, 44,46, 56, 60, 75 www.fountaine-pajot.com *FRA *Attractive designs, good quality.
* Kronos *45 *FRA *Wauquiez-Beneteau built.
* Lagoon* 38, 41, 47, 57, 67 *FRA* Benetau built, good charter boat, O.K cruising boat.
* Leopard* 38,42,47, 62 *RSA* Good design, Possibly best built production cat.
* Manta *42 www.mantausa.com *USA* Well designed and built. Great cruising boat.
* Outremer* 40-64 *FRA* Fast and strong.
* PDQ* 32, 36, 42 *CAN* Long successful production run.
* Prout* 38, 45 *** *ENG* Reasonably priced, well proven, long production run.
* Seawind* 33 *AUS* Quality boat.
* Soubise* 46 *FRA* Excellent, super fast and high quality, semi-custom.
* Voyage* 380, 440, 500, 580 *RSA* Lightweight, good value

*KEY:
** Out of business
ARG Argentina
AUS Australia
CAN Canada
CRI Costa Rica
DEN Denmark
ENG England
FIN Finland
FRA France
GER Germany
HOL Holland
NZL New Zealand
RSA South Africa
SCT Scotland
SWE Sweden
SPA Spain
TAI Taiwan
Var Various


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## christyleigh

Hey !!! Who you callin Tubby....


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## camaraderie

Since this is a commonly asked question from newbies...I am going to make this thread a sticky that we can point others to. Thanks Sab30! I don't think that this list is definitive or comprehensive...so others may feel free to post other models left off the main list as bluewater boats to consider.

*EDIT UPDATE 8/08*
Here are "missed the list" boats that experienced cruisers have recommended as Bluewater Cruisers on this thread without objection:
*Passport 40
Tayana 37, 42, 47, 48, 52, 55
CS36T
Tartan42
Aries 32 
Fuji 32
Peterson 44
Shannon 38
Cal 39
Gulfstar 50
Downeast32
RobinHood 36, 40 
Caliber47
Rafiki 37*
Just trying to keep everything succinct for new boat shoppers! Note that the boats on this list may have been overlooked by Mahina OR for some reason disliked. (Example: Caliber47 seems to have been eliminated solely due to aesthetic preference. Other boats have known issues which if repaired end up being very seaworthy vessels. ) Nevertheless...worth consideration.


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## sab30

Good disclaimer..I agree only one man s opinion. I do use it as a cross referance once in awhile against perhaps a boat I never considered. Just thought its another tool in the search and at the list generates good discussion....cheers.


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## Jim H

Just a question: should permission have been asked before reposting the list in full here?


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## sab30

I spoke to John Neal via email who provide the updated list and he gave me permission to link or copy it as long as I stated the origin.

Good question..we think alike. Last thing I need is a lawsuit for copyright infringement.


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## Sapperwhite

> Orion 27 * USA Offshore capable. Pacific Seacraft built.


you got that right baby


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## labatt

I'm boycotting the list until they add the Passport 40 (they have many other Passport's!!!) and at least one Tayana.


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## camaraderie

All...I e-mailed John and confirmed that he is OK with the posting of his list here. Thank you John! 
Also...for those thinking about a bluewater boat, he has several very well written generic posts about what to look for and how to decide on what is right for you. He also runs a reasonably priced personal consulting service for individuals who need ideas and specific advice and certainly has the credentials to offer such advice. Read more here:
http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html

I of course, do not agree with his decision to leave off the Tayanas from his list though he is entitled to his opinion. My guess is that it has to do with personal or friends experience. Tayanas (and others on his list) built in the 80's have lots of reported deck and tank problems, so perhaps this enters his thinking. BUT...otherwise they are very fine, seaworthy boats built to stand up to the oceans of the world. At this point, many if not most of the boats with such issues have been repaired and the problems are non-existant and others may be priced to account for the work still to be done. Obviously...a good surveyor can tell the tale...but the Tayanas are priced well below comparatively robust vessels from the same period and with most designed by Perry, are fine sailing boats. Many T37's have sailed the worlds oceans in safety and comfort and it is difficult for me to think of many other mid-80's boats of this size that provide such good value on the used boat market.


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## sab30

What you didnt trust me Cam..I could never lie to a moderator????


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## camaraderie

No Sab...just wanted to have something for the files as it was not within copyright guidelines as it stood. Also wanted John to have look at it and make sure he was happy with how we treated it and the links. I always trust Canucks...ever since one of my canuck frat brothers "borrowed" my stereo. His comment..."If I had known it was yours I wouldn't have taken it eh?" ...and I believed him too!! ...no better friends...no worse enemies!!


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## gentryd

*Bruce Roberts Designs*

What about Bruce Roberts design steel hulls, or fiberglass rof that matter? granted they're primarily non production homemade type boats but assuming constructed correctly does anyone have any input on their sailing performance and blue water capabilities? I'm seriously considering building one out of aluminum over the next 4-5yrs, get kiddos through college, and the go cruising in semi retirement.


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## pigslo

Good Old Boat magazine had a 3 part article on this subject in the last 3 issues.
pigslo


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## camaraderie

gentryd..try thi thread!
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23475&highlight=bruce+roberts


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## bestfriend

Why the Tartan 41 and not the 42?


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## brak

Hey, my boat is on the list


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## gentryd

*Reality Check*

Thanks Camaraderie, that thread put a reality check on me. Why spend the blood,sweat and tears...and money to build a nice aluminum that some pirate or 3rd world government might like better once I start cruising the southern seas? Probably better off finding a decent salvage hull from this list and spending the next few years re-building it. Got my eye on a SC 31, just don't know if it would be big enough for me and the misses for an extended period, probably better stick w/ something in 38'-42' range. Have many hours of cruising Texas coast and bays in my Hunter 27 before I'm ready to strike out across blue water anyway. Thanks again


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## Plumper

Does anyone know what the qualities are that a boat has to have to make the list or the qualities it has to have (or nor have) to be rejected?

Gaz


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## camaraderie

Plumper...they have to be safe and built to stand up to the rigors of LONG TERM blue water cruising in the author's opinion and not be subject to significant and expensive known repair issues as they age. Remember this is ONE very experienced and respected authors' list. It does not include my boat so he is an idiot!


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## bestfriend

camaraderie said:


> Plumper...they have to be safe and built to stand up to the rigors of LONG TERM blue water cruising in the author's opinion and not be subject to significant and expensive known repair issues as they age. Remember this is ONE very experienced and respected authors' list. It does not include my boat so he is an idiot!


My thoughts exactly! No CS! What if your RV isn't on the list?


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## Plumper

Funny, mine is on the list but I have reservations about it because of the amount of glass in the pilothouse. Respected or not, I guess we all have our own points of view.


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## CBinRI

No mention of Swans except to say recent models aren't well suited. I would submit that slightly older models are fast but also built to cross oceans.


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## sailingdog

Obviously an incomplete list, since it doesn't have a lot of multihulls that have been used for LD cruising. If the PDQs are on the list, there's no reason the Maine Cats, Geminis and several others in that size range shouldn't be on the list. There are a fair number of trimarans that also would qualify. Several of the Farrier designs, the larger Corsairs, the larger Quorning Dragonflies should also be on the list.


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## orient

Why no Jeanneau's?


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## camaraderie

Because they are French!  W/ M. Sarkozy now in charge, perhaps next years ratings will include one.

Seriously though...there are no Hunters, Bene's, Catalinas, Bavarias etc. on the list either so it is safe to assume that the author feels that production boats that are built and designed PRIMARILY as coastal cruisers, are not suitable for extended ocean voyaging and the wear and tear that entails over time. Remember...his list is not "can this boat cross and ocean".


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## xort

*"Oyster* 42, 45, 485,49,53, 55, 56 61, 62, 63, 66, 70, 82, 100 www.oystermarine.com *ENG NZL* Some have 
inside steering. Attractive, expensive and first class! Weak resale value and larger
models make this an excellent, though expensive choice."

Not sure I understand the idea that they are expensive but have weak resale value. Can I assume they mean expensive "if bought new"?
And why would a highly rated boat like this have weak resale value?


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## Valiente

Because people don't sell them until they've been beaten all to xxx?

That a _type _of endorsement.


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## Maine Sail

*I'm a bit..*

I'm a bit surprised to see many of the Ray Wall designed Camper Nicholson's but none of the Ray Wall designed Canadian Sailcraft boats. My 36T has well over 30k ocean miles and shows little to zero signs of fatigue or wear!

I'll have to agree that it's a somewhat of an incomplete list..


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## bobmcd

Certainly a useful list for anyone in the market for a cruising boat (such as I). I could question a few on the list (J's for cruising?) and know of a couple (Aries 32 and Fuji 32) that are not on. Apparently there never were many of these outside of Asia. Any comments on either the Aries (long keel & canoe stern) or the Fuji (cutaway forefoot long keel)?


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## sailingdog

I believe that they made up to a 35 or 37' boat in the Southern Cross line. If you like the SC31, you might want to keep an eye out for her larger sisters.


gentryd said:


> Thanks Camaraderie, that thread put a reality check on me. Why spend the blood,sweat and tears...and money to build a nice aluminum that some pirate or 3rd world government might like better once I start cruising the southern seas? Probably better off finding a decent salvage hull from this list and spending the next few years re-building it. Got my eye on a SC 31, just don't know if it would be big enough for me and the misses for an extended period, probably better stick w/ something in 38'-42' range. Have many hours of cruising Texas coast and bays in my Hunter 27 before I'm ready to strike out across blue water anyway. Thanks again


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## TSOJOURNER

Anyone have any experience with a Cal 39? The second generation from 78-82 or so..looking to liveaboard and circumnavigate with a fast, sturdy boat.


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## TSOJOURNER

Columbia Challenger -older plastic boat, classic turtle-back deck, dirt cheap to repair -what like a hundred bucks for standing rigging, cramped, minimal storage. If it ends up on the marbles, so what 'the wind is free.'


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## ssmith8523

*Cal 39*

Google it - I know I have seen articles on it in the last year or so, maybe in Bluewater sailing mag? Anyway, regarded as a very good value for your purpose, especially the model with the private aft stateroom.

Cal 34 1978
sv Breakaway


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## Lion35

dang! skipped the Shannon 38? and what about the Peterson 44? I guess I'm not looking at blue water boats.


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## sailingdog

224-

Welcome to sailnet... but you're basically posting off topic, and really should start your own thread about the Bendytoy... also read this *post* to get the most out of your time on sailnet.

You'll get much better results and not clog this thread up with off-topic material if you start your own thread.

To start a new thread, go to the forum which it belongs in, in this case "Buying a Boat" and then click on the "Forum Tools" drop down menu in the forum title bar and select "New Post".


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## 224

Dear Mr. S. Dog,
Thank you for your guidance, I assure you that will never happen again.
I remain,
224


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## BlandingFarm

*List Stinks*

This list stinks. Four manufacturers that have boats in the A catagory CE certification are Catalina Yachts, Beneteau Yachts, Hunter Yachts and Jeanneau Yachts. All build well and have more miles sailing around the world than any boat listed


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## sailingdog

BlandingFarm-

Catalina, Beneteau, Hunter and Jeanneau may have Category A EU RCD certifications, but that doesn't necessarily indicate that their boats are suitable for extended bluewater voyaging. Many of their boats which are EU RCD A certified are not suitable due to a serious lack of proper handholds, unseakindly motion, lack of tankage and stowage, etc.

From reading some of Blanding's other posts, he's whining about it because he owns a Catalina 42 that was left off the list.


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## camaraderie

Blanding... while there are a few models that might be considered Ocean Capable... the brands are not built for extended ocean cruising by their mfrs. and most have significant shortcomings. Our other moderator CD owns a Cat400 and is tech editor for the magazine and agrees with this. The Mahina guy has a few hundred thousand miles of blue water under his belt so any boat on his list is blue water capable for extended cruising. I don't agree with his leaving off my boat either...but I respect his overall knowledge and there is a reason entire brands have been left off his list and every other list of blue water boats. Exactly what are YOUR credentials that you can challenge his judgment on 3 major brands? 
BTW...having owned two...I am no Catalina basher. They are great values for the $$ for what most sailors do with their boats. But I'd take my 20 year old Tayana to sea over any brand new Cat any day of the week. On the Chesapeake...I'd take the new Cat.


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## rtbates

At least he knows that Cape Dories belong on that list!!


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## BlandingFarm

Sailingdog,

Sorry, I don't own a Catalina 42. I have been involved in manufacturing of Catalina, Beneteau, Jeanneau & Hunter and I know as a fact that if you need to add stowage, tank etc, it can be done.

If you called the owner of Catalina, he will say that his Catalina 42 can sail around the world but he will worry about the person at the wheel more than the boat.

Quit you whinning. you just upset that you paid too much money for a boat that has the same building techniques as Catalina etc.


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## GreenEgg

Hi Folks.

This is a great forum!


I noticed the the Northern 29' was not on this list.

Any comments on the Northern?


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## camaraderie

Welcome GreenEgg! I don't know enough about them to make a judgement but they look like solid boats. Would expect that storage and tankage for distance cruising would be an issue with the pinched ends and narrow beam but hat's what makes her look pretty too!


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## GreenEgg

Thanks Camaraderie!


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## captainchetco

Another boat which makes an excellent cruiser with a turn of speed (Same genre as a Valiant, only older & cheaper) is a Gulfstar. Generally a performance cruiser underbody (cruising fin design) but built heavy. Excellent upwind performance, a bit squirrley going down. 

They also made a shoal draft long keel. One of that design, a 50' (s/v "Talion") just won the March Banderas Bay Regatta, passing many of the boats in faster classes, including multi hulls.

They are very solid, with more teak than some like, occasional blister problems, conservative rig and sail area. But surprisingly fast! A very good cruiser which will handle heavy weather (bow to the sea) is comfortable, dryer than most and will allow you to outsail the average storm.


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## moanasailing

How about the Downeast line of boats? I have sailed my 32 across the Pacific twice and it how proved to be a worthy seagoing vessel.


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## Cruisingdad

camaraderie said:


> Blanding... while there are a few models that might be considered Ocean Capable... the brands are not built for extended ocean cruising by their mfrs. and most have significant shortcomings. Our other moderator CD owns a Cat400 and is tech editor for the magazine and agrees with this. The Mahina guy has a few hundred thousand miles of blue water under his belt so any boat on his list is blue water capable for extended cruising. I don't agree with his leaving off my boat either...but I respect his overall knowledge and there is a reason entire brands have been left off his list and every other list of blue water boats. Exactly what are YOUR credentials that you can challenge his judgment on 3 major brands?
> BTW...having owned two...I am no Catalina basher. They are great values for the $$ for what most sailors do with their boats. But I'd take my 20 year old Tayana to sea over any brand new Cat any day of the week. On the Chesapeake...I'd take the new Cat.


Boy, how did I miss this post??? Oh well.

- CD


----------



## jheldatksuedu

*Hughes 38*

I think the Hughes 38 should be on the list, I have to admit I'm a little biased since I've got one. But I was planning to start my circumnavigation in it, till I found the great deal on my custom built 45 steel ketch. It's certainly a blue water boat in my opinion, they have circumnavigated, many are crossing oceans all the time.


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## camaraderie

There is a rather lengthy thread with widely varying opinions on the various incarnations of the Hughes 38 here:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/buying-boat/21297-evaluating-hughes-northstar-38-a.html

Given the divergence of opinion it is not surprising that it is not on the list of suitable offshore cruisers...which is not to say it cannot cross oceans.


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## Livia

Everyone has their own needs of course, but we used John's consulting service and it was very useful for us--like having a private bluewater boat expert tutor us during the looking and buying process*.



camaraderie said:


> Also...for those thinking about a bluewater boat, he has several very well written generic posts about what to look for and how to decide on what is right for you. He also runs a reasonably priced personal consulting service for individuals who need ideas and specific advice and certainly has the credentials to offer such advice. Read more here:
> Mahina Expedition - Offshore Cruising Instruction


Of course I think the list is fantastic because our boat is on it  --of course it is no surprise that we were steered toward a boat on this list given that we worked with its author!

*Although he seems like a nice guy I am neither friends with him directly nor do I benefit financially in any way.


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## 1SailorBH

*Wauquiez Amphitrite*

We are considering buying a Wauquiez Amphitrite. We would appreciate any information on this boat that anyone could send us.

Bruce & Mary


----------



## cberkholtz

*grampian classic*

I've been eying a beat up old Grampian classic 31, which from my inexperienced eyes looks like a superb offshore cruiser for its size. Was it neglected from the list for a reason, or is it there under another name or just forgotten?


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## camaraderie

A 14 gallon fuel tank is usually a giveaway that a boat is not designed for distance cruising! Pretty boat though.


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## funsailthekeys

*257,000 nm*

If you did not stop moving @ approximately 5 knots it would take 5.87 years to get that much mileage. Were you on the Spray?


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## TSOJOURNER

I would like to add following Australian boats to the list, all pre 1984:

*Swanson 28* We lost one 1/2 way through a circumnavigation when Katrina hit your shores.

*Swanson 38* the pick of the bunch, huge interior volume.

*Swanson 42* a little too fat and heavy.

All canoe sterns, full keel with cut away forefoot. To give you an idea, my 28comes in at 5 tonnes [as per last time on the travel lift, all cruising gear (slabs of beer) inside], has 600 litres water and 200 litres fuel capacity running a Bukh 20, with heaps of storage with a good turn of speed. A very comfortable and dry little cruiser.

Cheers.


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## TSOJOURNER

well i was searching for the same information in this thread, thanks for sharing.


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## northbay

I' curious, why no mention of Gulfstar... even by John Neal?
I realize that other boats might be better but not to even
get a by-your-leave... please.

Bob s/v Journey


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## camaraderie

Northbay...I would agree that the G50 is a bluewater boat as we have friends who have made a number of bluewater passages in one. I think they are pretty well built in terms of robustness but have had problems with leaks, deck core and tanks so that is probaly why Neal left them off the list. Nevertheless..if those things have been taken care of I would not hesitate to voyage in one and the SPACE is terriffic for living aboard. I would not say the same of several smaller Gstars I've been on.


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## Newport41

I noticed the Morgan 382/383 made the list. I've also seen lots of them out and about around the world so I guess they deserve the designation as a bluewater boat. Are they not bonded at the hull/deck joint? As I remember that's why i stayed away from them, that and I'm a speed freak (not the drug addict kind)


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## camaraderie

Newport...I don't think that is right though it is a cored hull and had some internal bulkhead and chainplate tabbing issues. Generally considered a good strong boat if kept well.


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## emagin

Rafiki 37 has a pretty good reputation for being solidly built
Has some iron tank issues and the usual teak deck stuff but good overall.
Was mentioned in this Through the Cracks article 2004
/forums/buying-boat-articles/19539-through-cracks.html


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## camaraderie

emagnin...thanks for the link. I think it was probably left off due to the mentioned issues with decks an black iron tanks but assuming those have been dealt with, the boat deserves to be on the list if Kretchmer likes her! Adding to my post #6 secondry list!


----------



## emagin

The decks seems like a medium sized issue - common problem in 70s boats so not sure it's a deal killer.

The iron fuel tanks is different - getting the iron tanks out of a Rafiki is almost impossible, they have to be cut up and things taken out to make room to get to them. So they are a major issue IF they go bad and rust on you. Depends on the grade of material, but it is a known issue that has to be addressed by some owners.

Still a great boat!


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## TSOJOURNER

Wow!Is the entire C & C range unsuitable?And he put Saga on the list?I have personaly worked on a Saga 43 and I think it is a mistake to go to sea in one of those.They are made for light winds and sheltered waters.


----------



## tjvanginkel

*also wondering*

I too am wondering why C&C's don't make the list? I know of two that have done the vic maui race, an older 34 and a 37. I also have met a couple that cruised their C&C from the Pacific Northwest to New Zealand and back. 
Anyone?


----------



## Stillraining

Its just a list

Friends of mine just spent 2 years at sea aboard their Jeanneau

Like Cam said he has his own criteria....maybe some 1000 straight days at sea criteria or the like..he'll have to add Reeds boat pretty soon...


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## camaraderie

I'll have to disagree about the Saga's. The 43 is a little tender but these boats are built well, have good motion, are fast and designed for cruising long distances. Perry knew what he was doing on those and quite a few others agree.
SAGA 43 Boat Reviews
Used Boat Review


----------



## northbay

Camaraderie,

would you elaborate on the "tank" and "deck core"
issues on the Gulfstar 50?

Bob


----------



## eMKay

tjvanginkel said:


> I too am wondering why C&C's don't make the list? I know of two that have done the vic maui race, an older 34 and a 37. I also have met a couple that cruised their C&C from the Pacific Northwest to New Zealand and back.
> Anyone?


Probably because they are not designed as offshore boats, which is what this list is for.


----------



## blt2ski

This is a list, nothing more, nothing less! I am sure the person that put the list together had some sort of criteria that made all the boats on the list have. As such, the boats NOT on the list did not meet said criteria. 

As mentioned, the Rairds out of Anacortes Wa, spent 2 yrs from here in the NW to Austrailia and back aboard a Jeanneau 49iP. Some other boats as i recall thru the yrs that went around, include Catalina 27 or two. Robin Lee Graham got 3/4 of the way around with a Luder 24, a basic 1/4 ton style boat. Somoa'n folks were traveling around the south seas in proa canoes, NW indians in Cedar dug out canoes catching whales upwards of 100 miles off the coast of Wa..............I am sure we can find other examples of boats that went offshore etc and survived for many reasons.

This list is no better than the "Best boats in the world" vol 1 and 2 by Frec Mate. He admits, it is his list, what "HE" thought made those boats be BEST! I am sure some on here would not put Beneteaus as were listed in Vol 1, but he liked how they as a production builder were doing things, and listed accordingly. Was it wrong to put on the list? Don't ask me! But in reality he should have listed some of the production builders there were on the cutting edge of that type of boat building along with the one off to semit custom builders etc. 

Take this list, see what is in common, and if another boat that is not listed, is similar, has most of the attributes of the ones listed, fix, add or otherwise the missing link, and enjoy you choice of boat. 

Marty


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## camaraderie

Northbay:
Boat Model - Gulfstar Sailboats
Boat Model - Gulfstar Sailboats
Have lots of detail on problems incurred with these boats.
My friend had to replace his water tank which was a big job.

Marty...I actually disagree with you on this one a bit. While John Neal's reasons for not including a particular boat remain obscure...his criteria for selection are well spelled out on his website in terms of the things he finds important. He has 250k sea miles under his belt. 125 sail training blue water trips and is an acknowledged expert in the field. As such, his opinions count for a lot and I would reiterate...this list is NOT about whether a particular boat CAN make a trip across an ocean. It is about whether the boat is DESIGNED and BUILT to make MANY such trips while being as SAFE and COMFORTABLE vessel well suited to LIVING ABOARD. 
It is hard to argue that any boats on his list do not meet this criterea. Thus it is a VERY good list to work from even though it is not comprehensive. It is not just some guys list and to my mind the weight of his CRUISING experience and knowledge of many boats makes it the best of any such lists I have found. 
I do agree with you last statment though...since mine was left off his list!


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## blt2ski

Cam,

I was not sure "IF" the criteria was spelled out or not, as to how Johns list came to be. As such, then it would be easy to see "how" he got this list together. And why it should be looked at as such. Also why, your boat may not have made the list, ie one item was to small, lets say water capacity, gain, I have NOT looked at his list. So your boat has too little water, add a tank in an appropriate place etc. 

Obviously there are other boats that can make the trip, ie a Volvo 70, altho not what a cruiser would take generally speaking, but certainly capable of taking one around the world.

So in the end thos, one needs to look at the reason John choose what he did, see if those reasons/criteria meet "your" needs and choose accordingly. Probably hence, why I personally look at it as a basic list of boats that will work. Look at them for who what why and how they work, then choose a boat for you needs, follow what you think/want to follow etc.

marty


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## sailortjk1

I have a question, maybe it belongs in another thread, what ever happened to Areodyne? Seems like about 5, 6, 8 years ago, they were the hottest thing going, now you hardly hear anything about them.
Any reason?
Did a quick search here and came up with 3 threads with nothing note worthy about them. Googled and found their page, but again, I used to hear the name all the time, not so much anymore.


----------



## RandyonR3

I was sort of put out when I first saw the list and my boat was'nt there but I'll have to admit, I've spent may hours and big bucks to get this 
FIRST 42 ready for ocean cruising. 
Being the boat was designed for Ocean Racing and not Cruising I can see how it was left off the list. 
What make me wonder is why he added the "J" to the mix. must be a personal thing as I dont think I'd take one cruising, but then again, I also know those that think I'm crazy for turning a Thoroughbred into a cruiser.


----------



## sailingfool

tjvanginkel said:


> I too am wondering why C&C's don't make the list? I know of two that have done the vic maui race, an older 34 and a 37. I also have met a couple that cruised their C&C from the Pacific Northwest to New Zealand and back.
> Anyone?


As a former owner of a C&C30 Mark I and a big fan of C&C's in general, I would agree they are best considered fast coastal cruisers. Back in my last boat hunt I looked at a C&C 35 mark II which was set up for offshore use and had just returned from Europe...and that model is one I would consider for offshore use. But I also looked at the 34 and 36 and 37 and considered them of marginal construction and design for even coastal use. With a builder like C&C who made a wide range of boats over 20 something years, you have wide variances in the concepts and quality of specific models. In my opinion, they made their best boats in the early to mid '70s, folllowed by mostly average to mediocre models.


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## TSOJOURNER

I can believe in the safety of the boats on this list, but comfort? The Contessa 26 is on the list. "Bika," a Contessa 26, is currently in our harbor on the Mississippi. (Google BIKA and read their web site.) The owners have flown back to Norway to earn some boat bucks so they can continue. They have lived on this boat since May 2005, and I don't understand how! Two people in a sailbaot that measures 25 feet six inches by 7 feet six inches is not my idea of comfort! I'd much rather live on an Island Packet 465CC. But maybe that's because it's the only sailboat I've ever been on with over 7 foot headroom! It's too new to have made that list.


----------



## thesnort

I'd be curious to hear of others' opinions regarding what they consider bluewater multihulls. Maybe a new thread would be better for that question, but since we're talking bluewater here...


----------



## emagin

After reading many opinions about boats here, I decided I had to approach this whole thing a touch more analytically and created a Cruising Boat Stats spreadsheet.

With respect for everyone's opinions, when it comes to offshore cruising there are some stats that can really help you understand the boat's performance characteristics.
I expanded on the data on another thread at Sailnet, and listed all the boats' basic parameters, then threw several calculations at them.
I have not checked to see if all of Mahina's boats are on here, that will take some time. But there are a lot in there!

By using Ted Brewer's and these sources I dropped in the most relevant/available formulas.
Design Basics
Sailboat Design and Stability
Ted Brewer Yacht Design

The only thing missing in the data is the ballast, which you should add for your favorite boat.

Cruising Boat Spreadsheet
This sheet can be edited by anyone.
Try not to blow away the formulas.
Insert a new row
Autofill the row based on row above (this brings down the formulas)

If this is inappropriate I can remove. 
Let me know what you think!

Mark


----------



## Squamish

Has anyone considered Contessa 32 or Sadler 32. Contessas are numerous in the UK, Sadlers as well. Quite a few Contessas in NA and only a few Sadlers.


----------



## emagin

Here are some sites referencing contessas.

Bigoceans | Tiny Boat · Blog Archive
Home » Bigoceans | Tiny Boat

James Baldwin's Pocket Bluewater Cruising Boat List - SailNet Community
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising/48099-james-baldwins-pocket-bluewater-cruising-boat-list.html

Please recomend a blue water cruiser for around 10K - SailNet Community
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising/45113-please-recomend-blue-water-cruiser-around-10k.html

Contessa 26 twice around the world engine less - SailNet Community
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising/42183-contessa-26-twice-around-world-engine-less.html


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## sailingdog

Squamish said:


> Has anyone considered Contessa 32 or Sadler 32. Contessas are numerous in the UK, Sadlers as well. Quite a few Contessas in NA and only a few Sadlers.


Contessas are fairly well regarded as bluewater capable pocket cruisers... The reason Sadlers are probably a bit rare here is that they generally didn't come over from England, since people could buy the Contessas made up in Canada for less money and have the boat come a much shorter distance.

BTW, Contessa 32s are still in limited production in England AFAIK.


----------



## BrandyIsland

I have sailed my Moody 34 accross the atlantic, to the Virgin Islands and back and three trips down to Great Exuma.. I am very comfortable with her in blue water


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## Jim H

I think the Westerly line could use an update:

*Westerly* 26 36 ENG Not flashy, but fairly well built boats.

In particular, the

Sealord 39
Oceanlord 41
Ocean 43
Oceanmaster 48
Ocean 49

Should likely be there. For details:

Westerly Owners Association


----------



## emagin

Did anyone look at the spreadsheet I put up?
Is it useful to help find a cruising boat based on the Mahina, Ted Brewer and Johns Boat Stuff lists?

The one piece of data I haven't been able to figure out yet is Roll Acceleration, which requires Roll Angle. Where does one get that data on boats?

*(7) ROLL ACCELERATION = (6.28/T)^2*RADIUS*(ROLL ANGLE*3.14/180)/32.2* Units of G's, where "*T"* is the *ROLL PERIOD.* From Marchaj's book, SEAWORTHINESS, THE FORGOTTEN FACTOR, chapter 4, "Boat Motions in a Seaway". The author presents a graph of roll acceleration Vs four physiological states; Imperceptible, Tolerable, Threshold of Malaise, and Intolerable. Malaise starts at .1 G, Intolerable begins at .18 G. Spending much time under these levels of acceleration reduces physical effectiveness and decision making ability through sleep deprivation. The radius term assumes an off center berth located 1.5 feet inboard from the maximum beam. The roll angle is 10 degrees. G levels above .06 are considered undesirable for offshore cruising conditions. Several light weight, large beam designs have G levels above .4, definitely "intolerable" for any length of time. The ROLL PERIOD is calculated from the equation: *T = 6.28*( I /(82.43*LWL*(.82*beam)^3))^.5 *, and has dimensions of seconds. The roll period is based on the moment of inertia, I, waterline length, and beam. The term (.82*beam) has been substituted for the waterline beam due to lack of data. The general rule of thumb is that boats with periods less than 4 seconds are stiff and periods greater than 8 seconds are tender. The MOMENT OF INERTIA is calculated from the equation: *I = (disp^1.744 )/35.5* , and has dimensions of lb.ft.^2. An empirical term used by SNAME for analysis of the 1987 Fastnet race. The moment of inertia is very sensitive to the distance items are from the center of gravity. A heavy rig can greatly increase I, with little impact on displacement.
Low Cost Cruising Boats


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## copacabana

Mark, I for one have spent hours going over your spreadsheet. It's a great help for comparing boats. Thanks so much for sharing it with us.

Mark


----------



## emagin

Hey thanks Copa! Great to hear!
Remember, it ain't *mine* but it's ours. 
I just put in the formulas and update the #s based on my own search for the perfect cruising boat!

And of course, always double check the #s on your favorite boat, as anyone can edit this sheet.

Take care!


----------



## YachtMate

Hi Guys

- I may be slightly baised here, but i think that the Skye51 deserves a bit more of a write up than similiar 'apperance to swans', as i personally think its a fantastic blue water cruising boat, with a thoughtfull layout both above and below decks, good tankage, storage and sea berths - whats more its strongly built, and for its class fast.

I spent a fair amount of time choosing a blue water cruiser, so much that i took a skye51 on a test sail across the pacific, and i was impressed.

I have some experince sailing the skye51 'blue water' and its dealt admirably with everything thrown its way.

Dan

btw does anyone have more information on the deck problems?


----------



## cruisingmom

*Blue Water Boat List - Endeavour*

Hello

We are looking at the Endeavour 40 as a possible next boat for our family cruising (We presently have a Pearson 365 Ketch). In reviewing your list we noticed the absence of the Endeavours (but the inclusion of our existing P365). Is there any particular reason that the Endeavour is not recommended for Blue water cruising?
Thanks for the help


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## camaraderie

Because it is not built for it. It is built for coastal cruising/caribe not the long term pounding of a blue water existence. Nothing wrong with them...most boats are built for just that.


----------



## danielgoldberg

*Not sure why I decided to read this now*

But I have to say, some of the boats on the list are pretty, shall we say, surprising.

J32? Pearson 365, 422 and 424?

There are others that raised an eyebrow, but I know the above three boats fairly well, and though they are perfectly fine boats I wouldn't call them "blue water" by any stretch. And Fountaine Pajot? Again, there's nothing wrong with them, but they are known as the Hunters of the multihull world (no disrespect to Hunters, at all, but if you are going to reject all production boats, how do you include FP?).

I guess it depends on how you define blue water. If it means it can make it from Montauk to Norfolk, maybe a Bermuda trip or something like that, then there are many qualified boats that he left off the list. But if he meant to include only go anywhere, trans-oceanic boats, there are a number on that list that just make no sense to me. Even he says that several of the boats are very light on tankage, just as an example. Not sure what he was trying to accomplish, or what criteria he used. I know from the thread that the idea is whether a boat will hold up to long distance, long term cruising, but there are many boats on that list that, in my view, would be entirely unsuitable. I mean, J44? Great racing, short term cruising boat, but very limited tankage, known problems with wet cores (and that's a cored hull), difficult to sail shorthanded because she's not very forgiving, exposed rudder (that's an objection to many people), etc.

Just my belated 2 cents.


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## thesnort

Why no ETAP, if they're unsinkable? 
Frankly speaking, I'll take an unsinkable boat any day.


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## TSOJOURNER

The Fuji 32,35 and 45s are better blue water go anywhere boats than 90% of what is on the list.
Very nice sailing in light wind or heavy weather.
Right up there with Cabo Rico and Gozzards/Bayfields at least. They will take more than most crews will.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

By the way the Fuji 32 I had has been from Calif. to Hawaii back to Calif back to Hawaii to gaum to Japan and back to Hawaii Not all in perfect sailing conditions. I'd say it has seen some Blue Water.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Personally I would not go out of sight of land in a boat with a Bolt on keel. Any Blue Water boat should have encapsulated keel. If you happen to run aground on sand you don't lose the keel.

I have sailed a Hunter 42 passage. Nice live aboard and fine day sailor. But NO hand holds, No Sea berths. Can't stay out very long without sleep.


----------



## camaraderie

FS...The Fuji 32 was added to the list in post#8 along with a bunch of other overlooked boats. 

Snort...ETAP's may not sink but neither does my old Snark. Didn't realize the Snark was a bluewater boat.  (Note...not criticizing ETAP...just that un-sinkability is not the test of blue water cruising suitability and construction) Maybe the 46 will make Mahina's next list.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

The Amel's are good boats to. I sailed an Amel 52 from Mexico to Hawaii last spring and would take that boat anywhere. If it had a wind vane on it. The one I sailed didn't have and like normal the Auto pilot died 1,000 miles into a 3,000 kt passage so there was a lot of hand steering for 3 of us of which I ended up doing 2/3 of. I'm not going on a long passage without a wind vane again.


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## camaraderie

FS...actually your post made me look at the original Mahina list only to find that it is not the Amel 36 and 53 that is listed but *ALL Amels 36 through 56 feet*
Checking other brands for a similar error....I find
*BRISTOL 27 through 45
GARCIA 46 through 50+
Hinckley 30 through 64
Little Harbor 42 through 90*

Thanks


----------



## thesnort

Hey cam,
Have they ever built a 46-foot Snark? I want one! 
Actually, I think the ETAPs have much to recommend them and I know they're Lloyd's certified, for whatever that's worth. 
On another note....Funny, I could have sworn that the Mahina list originally included the Gemini catamaran.


----------



## camaraderie

TheSnort on a Snark in a snit! 
Actually you are right about the Gemini 105...it was on his original list in 2002 but has been removed from the 2008 list quoted in this thread. Everyone knows they are not seaworthy beyond the confines of the Chesapeake Bay!


----------



## camaraderie

Update...ETAP just placed in bankruptcy. Boats float...company sinks!


----------



## thesnort

"Etap Est Pâté?"
Headline from Belgian Boating World.
Now I know we're all truly screwed. 
I thought that Etap was going to set the trend for "multi" hull contruction (they sandwich one hull inside the other) and that boatbuilders would do three hulls, four, etc...just like multiple razor blades.
Just another sad day for sailing enthusiasts.


----------



## Gaudior

Our Passport 51.5 left Ft Lauderdale for Green Bay last April w/ headwinds against the current. Tough but solid, always kept pushing on to NY.


----------



## camaraderie

Gaudior..welcome. No doubt your 51.5 is a top of the line bluewater boat. Probably is just too new to have made the list with all the other passports.


----------



## sailingdog

Cam-

In the interim, between 2002 and 2008, ChucklesR bought a Gemini... coincidence? I think not. 


camaraderie said:


> TheSnort on a Snark in a snit!
> Actually you are right about the Gemini 105...it was on his original list in 2002 but has been removed from the 2008 list quoted in this thread. Everyone knows they are not seaworthy beyond the confines of the Chesapeake Bay!


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## OsmundL

I have followed these forums for a while, and I cannot help sensing that some members have a reluctance to recognize aluminium boats. It is incomprehensible that for example the Ovni range from Alubat did not appear on the list. I have an Ovni 395 and can vouch for it, sailing from Biscay to north of the Polar Circle, among other trips. The Allures 40 and 44 are supposed to be equally good. My point is this: Ovnis have been produced in numbers of more that 600 (may be out of date) for 30 years, and they go exclusively to blue water sailors. They don't go to "the French", as one member hinted, but to sailors from Scandinavia to Australia. Not that French sailors are to be scoffed at, they are after all without peers among single-handed sailors, and it was the current champion of Vendee Globe who endorsed the Allures. Forgive me for being polemic here, but let us for once go past the somewhat American prejudice that a blue water sailor should be large, heavy, clunky and most important be equipped with a large fridge. When sailing long distances to remote harbors, a boat's agility and general ease - for example with a lifting centerboard - is a major asset.
There - I can sleep better now.


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## OsmundL

While I'm in the grumpy mode: on closer inspection, the list seems to be more a list of second-hand boats, rather than current efficient designs? The high count of USA-builds on the list is only apparent; judging by your "*" a full 43 of the US builds are out of business. I too have had a nostalgic hankering for old beautiful boats, especially the long-keeled variety, but they are after all beginning to get a little long in the tooth. Buying second-hand, you should count any electronics older that 5 years as obsolete and due for complete replacement. Already there you have an expense.


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## camaraderie

Thanks for bringing those up Osmund...went to the website and they look like well built and very interesting boats. Yes...the list is from Mahina.com and does focus ONLY on fiberglass boats and has an American market bias since that is the market he sells and writes for. Not many Ovni's over here...but that doesn't mean they are not suitable...just not known here. Many older boats are featured because most people buy used and it is hard to find SMALLER boats today that are suitable for blue water cruising.


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## PorFin

thesnort said:


> Why no ETAP, if they're unsinkable?
> Frankly speaking, I'll take an unsinkable boat any day.


Why did _Titanic_ immediately flash into my feeble brain? 

Copa -- great effort and contribution! For sheets and giggles, I entered some of the data for our boat (Vagabond 39 cutter.)

PF


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## Coghead

*What about Hinterhoeller?*

Certainly the Hinterhoeller Eagle 35 is a bluewater worthy boat. Where is it?


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## WattsIsland

My 1970 Cheoy Lee 36 did well for two Atlantic crossings can’t we include them as well? 

John


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## SVVita

Wouldn't it be great if someone took all the resources from the internet, historical references, publications, and those from readers, and compiled a list of all the boats that have proven that they can handle bluewater travel, and the circumstances surrounding their success. Then made a nice little website to showcase it all. There are a few books out there that give some examples of boats that work, but they are by no means exhaustive, including experts lists. Maybe we need someone that doesn't really have an opinion of specific types of boats to make the list. The problem then becomes convincing everyone that the list has merit. Interesting conundrum. I guess all that anyone can do is try an research the models available to each of us and make an individual decision based on our own personal feelings combined with the experience of others. With every expert that recommends a boat, your likely to be able to find one that denounces it, for what every reason, and personal opinion runs the gamut. 

Now, what do you think, a sunfish to Hawaii??? Maybe I'll ship it and take a plane.


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## WattsIsland

I think that is a great idea. I’m a new-guy to this site but I have been knocking around sailboats for about 40+ years. If someone had the time and effort, a good list could be compiled consisting of --- verified --- successful passages in any given type of boat. This would help diminish the opinion and concentrate on the facts. It would be great reading and cut down on the huge amount of research we all do when a new boat pops into the arena that most do not know. The reader could make their own decision. I have been told the Allied Seawind 30 has made 9 verified circumnavigations and only a handful of old salts know the boat (it did make the list though.

Hay the Sunfish passage would be better than the sailboard passages, which beats Ishmael floating on a coffin.

JC


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## maru657

The Dreadnought 32 certainly seems to deserve consideration. A boat with a proven record of circumnaigations, based on the Norwegian lifeboat design. Here's a website describing some of the voyages. Voyages of Dreadnought 32 sailboats


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## Sanduskysailor

I just looked at the list for the first time. Undoubtedly there are some good boats for offshore work on there. Then again there are some laughable ones. Tartan 3500, uh the same boat that auto tacks in 15 knots apparent with a genoa? (I've sailed on one more than once to confirm this)No thanks. The author lists the S&S designed Yankee 30 which is the same boat as the more popular Tartan 30 which is not listed. My close friend has a Niagra 35. No way would he want to do anything in it other cruise to the Caribbean every winter. The Niagara 31 listed is a Frers design that is more suited for club racing than cruising. Pearson 422, 424. Uh, ok if you never have to sail to weather. Didn't some of the Island Packets listed have trouble with following seas? I remember reading something about it years ago.

For those talking about successful offshore passages as a criteria I submit that it is a very broad term. To some offshore passages might mean offwind tradewinds passagemaking the South Pacific. To others it might be crossing the Gulfstream and venturing into the North Atlantic. If you are considering purchasing a boat for that around the world cruise do your homework and have a good weather router and carefully consider the conditions that you will encounter.

Check this recent article out from Sailing Anarchy- scotw

"Battered Woman

We only know her as “lasergirl,” but the balls it takes to post this pic of the monster bruise she suffered during the Heineken Regatta make her our Sailor Chick of the Week. Her pole dancing ability doesn't hurt, either. Here's lasergirls report after the 35' Beneteau she was driving capsized and sank on their approach to Oyster Pond:

The boat that sank outside of Oyster Pond was Anita- a Beneteau Oceanis 343. She capsized after being struck by a 15 ft. breaking wave, in the channel entrance to Oyster Pond. I was driving the boat at the time of the accident. It was the scariest experience of my life. Luckily, all the crew are safe. My only regret is that I did not follow my instinct, which was to not attempt that approach and make the Moorings come out and skipper their boat in themselves. I saw that the boat in front of me made it, and the Moorings told me to come on in, so I figured it wasn't as bad as it looked. Boy I was wrong.

On the bright side, everyone that we met after the accident (Moorings employees, sailors, airport personnel, flight attendants etc.) were unbelievably kind and helpful. I have never felt so helpless in all my life, and it was amazing that people really stepped up to help. Thank you to all of you out there. Your kind supportive words are greatly appreciated.

I look forward to sailing in the Caribbean again. However, I will certainly be steering clear of Oyster Pond. For right now I will stick to my Laser, much easier to recover ;-)


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## shawnkillam

It would be very useful to have a "black list" ie those boats that would be poor choices for offshore and why. The why would be particularly useful.

thx sk


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## camaraderie

Shawn...that list would be thousands of boats. No one has the time or inclination to do that though reviews and evaluations of individual boats are easily found on google.

ALL...once again I would refer to the rules of this thread:
*If you believe a specific boat should be included AND you have personally cruised it extensively in blue water make your case as well.*
 
This is about boats well suited for continuous cruising and living aboard in blue water compared to other boats in their size range. *This is not about which boats have successfully made a blue water voyage.

*


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## shawnkillam

Camaraderie,
I would have to respectfully disagree with regards to the information being easily found on Google. I have devoted the vast majority of my free time for the last year and a substantial amount of time prior to that researching and trying to find information on this topic. Finding information about what people like about their boats is easy. The reverse, (at least for me) has been very difficult. As a friend of mine says no man ever married an ugly woman, had a dumb dog, or bought a bad boat.
The lack of negative information with regards specific boats may also be a function of forum rules and fear of litigation. If you read through the postings in most cases, even when people have been severely wronged by charter companies, yacht brokers, repair outfits etc they very rarely come out and name the offending party.
As to the thousands of boats list, yes that is probably to a certain extent true but I think that it could be limited with a little common sense although I do conceed that common sense is not that common. Hobie cats could probably be eliminated as potential blue water cruisers but I am sure there is someone out there who is on there way to Hawaii on a H16 who would object.
As I mentioned the most important thing to me would be the "why" which is also from my point of view the most important thing concerning those boats included in the list of blue water choices. I have a friend who would not raft to a Hunter for fear that it would sink while he was going to the dock. Why he cannot explain. While the Hunter owners I know think they are the bee's knees.
It may be that as an experienced Blue water cruiser these things may be self evident to you, but to those of us flailing about under piles of glossy manufactures adverts a bit of "why this is bad" or "why this is good" from the experienced members of the forum would be most helpful.

thank you sk


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## TSOJOURNER

*Bluewater boats*

I'm looking at purchasing a fantasia 35 and was told they were built specifically for blue water. we want to sail the world and not have to upgrade later. Can you recommend this boat for blue water passage making?



camaraderie said:


> Since this is a commonly asked question from newbies...I am going to make this thread a sticky that we can point others to. Thanks Sab30! I don't think that this list is definitive or comprehensive...so others may feel free to post other models left off the main list as bluewater boats to consider.
> 
> *EDIT UPDATE 8/08*
> Here are "missed the list" boats that experienced cruisers have recommended as Bluewater Cruisers on this thread without objection:
> *Passport 40
> Tayana 37, 42, 47, 48, 52, 55
> CS36T
> Tartan42
> Aries 32
> Fuji 32
> Peterson 44
> Shannon 38
> Cal 39
> Gulfstar 50
> Downeast32
> RobinHood 36, 40
> Caliber47
> Rafiki 37*
> Just trying to keep everything succinct for new boat shoppers! Note that the boats on this list may have been overlooked by Mahina OR for some reason disliked. (Example: Caliber47 seems to have been eliminated solely due to aesthetic preference. Other boats have known issues which if repaired end up being very seaworthy vessels. ) Nevertheless...worth consideration.


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## TSOJOURNER

And what is your opinion of a Fantasia 35? We want a blue water cruiser to live on and explore the world. We know we will get bad weather along the way and have to cross many vast oceans. Please let me know your opinion of this boat. I"m told it was made for this. It's just my husband and I.


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## camaraderie

Please read the rules of this forum and post your question elsewhere. Thanks.


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## funsailthekeys

*Hirsch gulfstar 45*

I am glad that Gulfstar made the list. Some of the Gulfstar models are less than desirable to me. The one I did buy ( my 3rd and last sailboat) is a Hirsch Gulfstar 45. The points I like the best are the the extra ballast compared to the Tartan 44, The huge chain plates like the Morgan 60, the shorter robust mast like the Morgan 41, all the tankage, (150 gal of water and 97 gal of fuel) no teak on the out side of the boat ( all stainless or aluminium), points well but a little loose down wind, looks cool and still sells for about what it did new so a great buy, ( mine cost $119,00.00 new with dual A/C and electronics in 1985). To buy one now in good shape will run from $89,000-$125,000. After 24 years no soft spots and really minor gelcoat cracking. There are pictures of it on my cruising pictures here. Lastly I wanted to say that it is fast, ( won a few races when it newer like the Amigos Race in 1986 to Mexico ) and very comfortable at sea. Too bad they only made a few. My friend looked for a year to buy a boat and he and his wife just could not decide on one.One week after seeing my boat they tracked one down and bought it. It's been about 9 months now and they are still on their honeymoon with their boat. I've had mine 5 years now and still love it. Sorry to be so long winded.


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## SeanRW

*Phew !! Marathon session*

First off, hello everyone, I'm brand spankin' new to this group just wanted to introduce myself properly before I rant 

Wow, I've just spent 3 hours reading the posts on this thread and then playing with the spreadsheet that emagin put up for us to review (thanks btw). A few thoughts pop immediately to mind. The author of the original, hotly debated list is like like a few of us, HUMAN. He's got his biases and his own opinions and while I respect his experience and knowledge base, I also was taught since childhood that opinions are like (insert gender neutral body part here). Everyone's got one.

I think that Neal's list is more of an introduction to what's out there that he's either had first hand experience with, or more likely, has spoken to those who do and whose opinions he respects. For me, in the middle of my own search for something to take me 'cross oceans AND to gunkhole in, I found his list a great starting point in my deliberations. Not the definitive list from which to choose. Afterall, as mentioned earlier, people crossed the pacific in rafts and some Kiwi or Frenchman is probably kitting out a Hobi or bathtub with a broom handle & sheets to give it a go.

For me as a basic neophyte to Blue Water voyaging, this list got me looking at some of the mfr's of the various boats, looking at any apparent common threads and then using those as a base line. His list has shown me the breadth of boats out there that could fit my needs, but in the end, I'll choose the one that gives me that tingle, regardless of lists or stats. Don't get me wrong, the stats & lists mean a helluva lot but they're the pointer, not the final determinant factor. Someone here posted that "No man has ever married an ugly wife, had a dumb dog or bought a bad boat" and truer words haven't been spoken.

We each love our boats, flaws included. That's what gives 'em personality and like a spouse, those imperfections become things that are endearing & irritating at the same time. My first boat was a Bombardier dinghy, granted, I was only 12 or 13 at the time but she was mine and by god, there simply wasn't a better boat on the water !


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## emagin

I am updating the spreadsheet to include marks notifying if the boat is recommended by: Mahina Expeditions List, Kretschmer's "Used Boat Notebook" and John Holtrop's affordable cruising boats list (also in Cruising World 1998).

Am trying to combine the hard numbers with analysis (calculations) and overview, so that you can compare a bunch of boats.

Seems to me this is useful because:
Most of the calculators are accurate but myopic, no big picture
Forum threads like this are great but scattered and time-sequential (not sortable)
General lists (Mahina) have little data

8-2009 update sheet more

The best thing would be this thread and accurate data on the list of all boats.

I am adding this thread as a source for the spreadsheet (Definitions Tab at bottom)


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## SeanRW

emagin,

I like the spreadsheet and have already made a few additions. they're indicated with the * in column A. Nothing exciting except some updated figures for the "dream boats" if I won the lottery or something like that. Actually, I used those boats as a "highend" benchmark to which I could compare more reasonable boats out there. 

Nothing like discovering that a well designed new/used boat at a reasonable cost can actually have better stats than the $1,000,000 ones out there


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## SVAuspicious

camaraderie said:


> *If you believe a specific boat should be included AND you have personally cruised it extensively in blue water make your case as well.*


Based on the above I suggest the Hallberg-Rassy 40 be added to the list of HRs. My experience with them doesn't meet the standard above, but the HR-48 should be there also.

I'm not sure how "new" the "newer [Swan] designs" John refers to are, but in my experience on deliveries the older Swans are good to great ocean racers and the newer ones are good to very good ocean cruisers. John has much more bluewater experience than I do so I defer to his judgment but I don't understand the distinction he makes.

sail fast and eat well, dave
S/V Auspicious


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## emagin

What is very valuable about the Mahina list is that Neal has looked at and/or heard about specific boat issues in order to decide what's on the list.

For example: At the recent boat show in Oakland, CA I got a chance to chat him up about why the Endeavour and S2 boats are specifically nixed in his list. He explained (I'm paraphrasing here) that due to poor workmanship...and... "they are lake boats" ... they were not really seaworthy enough to consider for bluewater passagemaking.

Mind you, this was a 1 minute exchange at a booth but it was interesting.

The other thing I learned based on his consulting people to find boats is that the North East USA and CA is a softer market (at the time) than the rest of US.


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## MattRHay

*Alberg*

Any size Whitby Alberg should be on the list.


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## malonepa

Gentlemen,
I would like to recommend the Bowman 46 as an excellent blue water cruiser. I had the pleasure on an Atlantic crossing from the Canary Islands to Guadelope Fr. WI in this boat with a crossing time of 18.5 day trip. This Bowman was equipped as a yawl, not the best for a trade wind crossing, but with twin jibs and main, she maintained impressive boat speed.

Malone Williams
Richmond, Va.


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## camaraderie

All the Bowmans from 36-58 feet are included in the Mahina list. The dash is missing in the post here! Your 46 is definitely included Malonepa and welcome aboard.


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## TSOJOURNER

*Looking for affordable Bluewater Pocket Cruiser*

Hey Y'all, 
I am looking for an affordable bluewater pocket cruiser. My background is racing lasers in my youth, then sailing on pearson & catalina coastal cruisers.
Like the Flicka but I'd rather put the $ towards the cruising kitty. Going solo. Have done some shorter coastal trips to Tortugas & Bahamas. 
Several folks have mentioned to me some of th English built boats, like the Corribee and others. Any input? Heard some Corribees have gone trans-atlantic. Anyone know about the seaworthiness of the Newbridge boats?
Any input welcome.
Thanks


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## Marcvet

*Off Shore Boats*

Anther boat that meets the "I don't list Taiwan made boats" but are excellent, I own one and would trust it through anything are the Lord Nelson 35 & 41.
Marcvet
s/v Gantman
LN 35


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## TSOJOURNER

Sorry if this question has been posed or is stupid but... In my search for a boat to make the trip from Chicago to San Diego I have become interested in the Cheoy Lee's... is there an overwhelming reason why they did not make the list? They seem to be reasonably priced and I like the look of them...


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## MikeinLA

I was just checking out this old thread and I am kind of stunned that no Hans Christian models are listed. I always thought that crossing oceans was pretty much ALL they did. Am I missing something?

Mike


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## Gaudior

Mike, 
I did not put the list together. I do agree w/ you about the Hans Christian models. 
Additionally I would add the Discovery Yachts from Southhampton and my Passport 51.5 cc.
Gaudior


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## InspGadgt

I've been looking over this list and what is available for sale on Yacht World for several weeks now as I lurk in the forum and learn...Very very few of the actual boat models listed are for sale it seems. I have seen several from the same ship yard but different designer...Especially being in Hawaii when it comes time for me to make my purchase my options may end up being quite limited. Taking this list into account as a starting point should I be looking at the ship yard listed first then designer or the other way around?


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## NICHOLSON58

ref post #6
You sure are correct on the Camper & Nicholson. We bought our 58 after my cousin sailed his 58 twice around and loved it as a blue-water cruiser. He ran into several others on his way and a fleet of three crossed the S Pacific together. They made 12 to 16 in the trades on the crossing. 
We discovered the "blister problem" in the first restoration season and put a new bottom on in year two. I hand ground several hundred thousand small gel coat pops and dug out 8 big blisters of dinner plate size. I should have just peeled it or had the sand blaster wipe it clean. Its a really nice boat with fantastic interior details. You have to appreciate the classic lines. Ours rode out GRACE years ago at sea. I have a copy of the article written in a sailing publication. The boat was RASCAL at the time and we have 'before and after photos' from the time. Easy to see the improvements made following that ride.


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## dantaden

Can't resist throwing my oar into this discussion - getting your view point to add my new boat to your list. Our first year with the boat, I'll represent other Celestial 48 owners with far more "Blue Water" experience with the boat than I do. After a long look around, viewing many other blue water boats, consulting the Neale's list and recommendations, I bought the boat based on owner experience and my requirements for long term living and traveling.

The Celestial 48 (1986) - A relatively unknown cruiser to many, billed as a blue water cruiser, built in China, operated and designed by Americans. Many of the and its owners still crusing today with 1,000's of passage making miles. Ours is the Cutter config.

Follow the links for more info if your interested.
REBA Intro
Vessels: Sail Reviews: Celestial 48 Ketch | MadMariner.com


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## remetau

Was there a final list created?

I didn't see Hans Christian in the list.


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## emagin

The final list is here:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/251474-post6.html

No, HC are not on it, not sure why/not
I have the 33 and 38 listed here


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## slowpoke

*micmac*

i did not see26 micmac, its more seaworthy than the cape dory25 etc.


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## emagin

Mahina have updated their list, it now shows Last Update Jan 2010.
Unfortunately they got wise and made it an IMAGE, so good luck keeping track of what was updated.


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## darknetone

No problem, simply OCR the image.


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## furrutia

*offshore yachts*

I would like to know about the souherlys and spirits.


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## daviddupzyk

would like some info on the nordic 44. anyone out there that can help. thanks david


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## cajunito

Would you consider a Formosa 41 as a bluewater cruiser?


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## xxuxx

*YES*


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## Jeff_H

*NO way is a Formosa 41 a decent offshore vessel!!!!!!!!!!!* 
It is a relic of a bygone error!(and yes, I meant 'error') See its not hard to use large bold letters instead of a detailed argument.

Seriously, without getting into their legendary poor quality building practices, boats like these were intended to be slightly updated versions of late 19th and early 20th century cruising boats. In converting the concept from wood to glass, these boats became even heavier than the boats that they were derived from. This triggered a whole range of compromises. To begin with, since most of the extra weight was in the hulls and interior appointments, it meant that there was a reduction in ballasting from what would have been the norm historically. This meant that they could not stand up to as large a sail plan as their historic precidents would have carried and so had very small sail plans for a boat of this displacement. The decision to go to bermuda rigs aggrevated this reduced ballast related reduction in sail area. The net result were boats that could not turn in decent average passage times. To me an important factor in picking an offshore cruising boat is that it capable of reasonable passage times, if not there is a tendancy to motor more and sail less, which for me is not exactly ideal voyaging under sail. 

But these are very high drag boats with lots of wetted surface and lots of windage. They need a large amount of sail area to sail even in heavy conditions but because they are relatively tender compared to their drag, it is very hard to carry enough sail to make to weather in a blow. While some might argue this is acceptable on an offshore boat, I would suggest that even offshore boats encounter lee shores and from my point of view the inability to make to weather in a blow is very much a desirable quality for a boat going offshore. While I would agree that offshore boats do not have to offer a race boat's ability to sail well in all conditions, the compromises that these boats represent would eliminate them from any list of offshore capable boats that I personally would compile. 

So while I would suggest that a Formosa 41 that someone had lovingly and knowledgably restored and upgraded might make a nice live aboard, I would suggest that if your primary goal for this boat is to go offshore,you consider one of the more up-to-date offshore designs such as a Valiant 40 or Kelly-Peterson 44's. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## sailingdog

LOL, jeff, tell us how you really feel about the boat. I think this is the first time Jeff's ever used the big fonts...


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## xxuxx

*Jeff.....whaaaaaaaaaa??????*

Don't you know you are dissing Captain Ron's little sister boat. He sailed a Formosa doncha know!!! Captain Ron did doncha know?? The FORMOSA may be of old design but it rocks. Jeeze Jeff....you need to take a pill. Just imagine, around the world in a Formosa....just like Captain Ron! Argh!!!


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## turtlevoyager

*turtleyoyager*

i see nothing on the beneteau idylle 44 german frers,do you all not like these ? I love em ,have sailed many boats ,raised in the caribbean I think these boats are awesome and very well laid out,sturdy and just an all around great boat,there not on your list why not ?


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## SaltyMonkey

Curmudgeon - I will sick zee on you - watch out =)


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## Johnno

moanasailing said:


> How about the Downeast line of boats? I have sailed my 32 across the Pacific twice and it how proved to be a worthy seagoing vessel.


I heard your boat was for sale. Where is she?

cheers
Johnno


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## surf1glide

Also (?):
H-28, Nor'Sea 27, Halcyon 27


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## PCP

furrutia said:


> I would like to know about the souherlys and spirits.


Paul and Sherril, that couple that lives aboard for ages, making movies for cable tv and always moving around, crossing oceans, sold their heavy boat, and two years ago bought a new Southerly 42. I was curious about what they thought of their new boat and then saw it for sale. I thought that after all it was possible that the Southerlies didn't deserve all the good things that I have heard about them.

Then I saw that they had bought a new boat...a Southerly 49

Southerly

Regards

Paulo


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## prroots

I'm into details. I see that a Sabre 34 is on the list. Could one extend that to a Sabre 32 which is designed by the same team and built by the same manufacturer? Also there is a Sabre 34 Mk1 and Mk2. Does the list refer to one or both? The hull designs are substantially different.

By the way, I'm looking for an offshore, performance, shoal draft sailboat. Of course, getting those attributes in a single boat is certainly a tradeoff. I've kind of narrowed it down to the two boats referenced above. It will be moored in Puerto Rico with occasional 1 week trips to the Virgin Islands as well as a passage or two to and from the mainland US. My budget is <$50K. Comments anyone? Thanks
Pete


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## gorwits

How about the Westwind 38, great offshore boat and well built.


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## SkywalkerII

I think an argument can be made for a Tartan 27 in light of the other small boats included - Triton, Dana, Albin Vega, etc. Several have crossed oceans, they are faster than many, solidly built, ...


----------



## richeperkin

The Mahina list has CS 36, but looking around on this forum there's a couple times people have only mentioned the Traditional. Are the differences between the Traditional and the Merlin that great that they would make the Merlin unsuitable for ocean crossing?


----------



## bjung

The list got updated, but looking at it quickly, very little changed. Southerly and Vancouver, both built by Northshore marine were finally included. 
To my surprise, Sabre went from "great" to "modest" quality, I wonder what caused that shift in opinion!? The Tartan issues however, remain ignored, hmm...
Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising


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## xxuxx

*Kudos for Passage 450 by Hunter*

One of the best values for the money are the Hunter Passage 450 made from 1999-2002. These are 28000 lb displacement vessels strung with Kevlar and are very seaworthy for a 45 foot vessel. The ride is incredible and very reassuring in heavy seas.


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## dantaden

It is interesting - where some boats on the list, I wouldn't have considered when looking for our current boat.

With 2 years experience with our 1986 Celestial 48', I think it's a worthy candidate for the blue water list based on comfort, strength, quality construction, sailing characteristic & performance, safety and security.

Read the reviews Vessels: Sail Reviews: Celestial 48 Ketch | MadMariner.com


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## gigglingdolphins

Our boat still is not listed, but I would take her anywhere...
and feel Very safe...


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## Poslelunofo

Hi everyone, interesting article


----------



## grumpyjack

*Mr. Grumpy*

Can someone please tell me where I can get a short list od suitable bluewater boats with pilot house (wife insists) that still sail well and be suitable for our hot climate here in the pacific , Fiji


----------



## Capt.Redbird

*Dear Mr. Grumpy*

Check out the New TARTAN 4700 or the 4400. There is a nice 4400 in Los Angeles area. Blue Pacific Boating is the new TARTAN/C&C Dealership there.
Cheers!


----------



## lauri

If the Fuji 32 is included, the the Fuji 35 and Fuji 45 should also be on the list. Granted there are not many 45's available, but that didn't seem to be a criteria. We are cruising one, and know at least 3 other Fuji 45's bluewater cruising.


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## EricktheRed

Mr Grumpy 
the Hudson Force 50 would be a good choice


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## randyrhines

I acquired our 1973 Allied Princess 36' ketch last May , and have sailed her Lake Huron in 10' seas , she handled easy motion good control , beautiful boat everything we read about her totally accurate, little tender at first then hardens right up, good manners , solid built lil ship, love it!


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## Sailor 1842

The following boats should be added which are all variations on the Whitby 42 designed by Ted Brewer:

Brewer 12.8 - Redesign of Whitby 42 by Ted Brewer and built by Fort Myers Yacht & Shipbuilding. Changes included Cutter rig instead of ketch rig, combination keel centerboard instead of full keel, slightly different dimensions. These boats were commissioned by a group from the Knickerbocker Yacht Club, LI for the express purpose of sailing in the Bahamas.

Whitby 55 - This was an extended version of the Whitby 42 built by Whitby Boatworks, ON, CAN. There were only a small number built.

Brewer 42 - This boat is listed as CAN in your list. This is incorrect, it was built in the US by Ft. Meyers but is the same design as the Whitby 42 built by Whitby Boatworks.

Brewer 44 - This is another redesign of the Whitby 42 by Ted Brewer and built by Ft. Meyers, not Whitby Boatworks. 2' were added to the LOA which incorporated a sugar scoop transom, a fin keel with skeg-hung rudder, and some boats were rigged as Cutters while others as ketches. The additional 2' allowed for a larger owner's aft stateroom.


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## JimAndTricia

What, no Kelly-Peterson 46? Does that mean I have to go out and sell mine now?


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## chall03

This list has again been updated on the Mahina Site.( Jan 2013).

Jimandtricia- Not sure what he has against your boat, the KP44 is also not on the list but has been acknowledged in this thread( and personally endorsed by our own Jeff H as being a good choice for cruising).

I know of of two KP-46's doing some pretty successful bluewater cruising.


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## PEISailor

An updated list, as of January 2013, of Mahina.com's "Boats to Consider for Offshore Cruising" can be found on the site about 2/3 the way down their page titled "Selecting a Boat for Offshore Cruising".


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## Regors

The PDQ = Antares Catamarans , www dot liveantares dot com


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## chall03

BUMP. 

The list has again been updated on the Mahina site. January 2014.


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## xxuxx

JimAndTricia said:


> What, no Kelly-Peterson 46? Does that mean I have to go out and sell mine now?


NO! Don'y sell it.....Burn it!!:hothead


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## xxuxx

IMHO and after 200,000 delivery miles, any production vessel can do trans-oceanic crossings without hull failure. Having said that, any production vessel can fail!! In most instances this failure is with the standing rigging or the rudder/rudder post. 
I delivered an Oyster 5 years ago, beautiful, expensive vessel. Encountered gale force winds and had standing rig failure.

This list really doesn't mean a hill of beans. Buy a vessel, inspect and repair it, outfit it to offshore specifications, like the Caribe 1500 standard and enjoy the sea. Go adventure sailing, my friends!! "And bring Dos Equis"


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## SHAO

Can't understand how a Yamaha 33' could be on this list, but not certain vintage Jeanneau models, like the Gin Fizz 37' and Sunrise 34/35'. All these boats would need some outfitting/beefing up; having just looked at a Yamaha 33 (though it's been sailed at length offshore) it's pretty marginal. Much prefer these Jeanneau's to it (for solo/short-handed sailing). Laura Dekker circumnavigated her Gin Fizz at age 15 and Alain Maignan circumnavigated his 1980s Sunrise with minimal upgrade budget (2006-07) and is preparing to circumnavigate the 'wrong way round,' next year, in the same boat. Here's an article in French on Alain, translated to English: 

Alain Maignan, a world tour like no other
Thursday, October 11, 2012
bit.ly/1qlUL74


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## NICHOLSON58

I searched the thread for Heritage One-Ton (Morgan designed 37'-9"). I feel this is a good candidate for the list. Older IOR design. I spent many years racing this one & in some pretty bad weather. We pushed it hard. It proved to be quite durable.


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## longjonsilver

camaraderie said:


> There is a rather lengthy thread with widely varying opinions on the various incarnations of the Hughes 38 here:
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/buying-boat/21297-evaluating-hughes-northstar-38-a.html
> 
> Given the divergence of opinion it is not surprising that it is not on the list of suitable offshore cruisers...which is not to say it cannot cross oceans.


its great to have diverse opinions, but when some of those opinions are based on error, then the diversity of opinions is worthless. To wit: there is only one Hughes 38 design (S&S design #1903) with several variations in interior layout, cockpit and deck design. The hull, ballast, tankage, rig (except for traveller) and engine are all the same. The Hughes 38-1, Hughes 38-2, Hughes Northstar 38, and Hughes 38-3. All are design S&S #1903.

Sailboats built by Hughes Boat Works by year on Sailboatdata.com

The differences in the draft and displacement can be explained by the transition from racing to cruising. The boat was designed as a CCA racer, but transitioned to a cruising design, with the inevitable increase in weight.

jon


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## Christian Williams

Ericson yachts have made many long distance passages, and round-the-world, too.

Here is a rambling thread listing many of them:

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...ter-Capabilities&p=40076&viewfull=1#post40076

Ericson Blue Water Capabilities


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## hannah2

That list is old. Just google Mahina's web page and you will get an up dated list. It even has our new boat the Boreal 44 on the page and the company is only 5 years old. 

Cheers


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## robert sailor

These lists are fun to talk about but do they really mean anything of importance ?? Probably marginal at best. The author of the lists is an experienced sailor, no doubt about that. Offshore sailing training and helping some of his students choose boats are his main source of income. Just how much personal unbiased knowledge does one sailor have?? Why did the so called list never include a modern entry level production built boat?? Even if you feel that someone like Beneteau doesn't build a good enough boat for offshore today they sure did in their First Series back in the 80's but these models never made the list. Until Catamarans became really popular they were never on the list but I see recently that they are now on the list even though their mono hull sisters are not. Personally I see lots of bias on this list plus I don't care how much you know about boats you can not have an intimate knowledge of hundreds of different designs and boat types. There are all sorts of lists out on the internet about offshore boat choices, this one is no different than any of the others, simply one person's opinion and like all opinions they are neither right or wrong. Like everyone else I am opinionated as well and no I do not own a new entry level production boat.


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## Christian Williams

Yes, I think the lists are best for arguing--and if seeing if your own boat is on it.... 

Most people never go anywhere on their expensive, new superstrong deepwater yachts with bronze ports and shiny Monitors. Most offshore passagemaking is racing, Bermuda or TansPac, where the emphasis is less on "bluewater strength" than on speed and gear. They go by planing at 15 or 20 knots while the "offshore" double-ender wallows safely at 6.

"The right boat" for offshore is always a good discussion, but the practical fact is obvious to anybody who has actually done it:

You go in the boat you have.


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## Brent Swain

They mention the Amazon, a very poorly built and painted, grossly over priced stock steel boat. The insides had only one coat of primer under the foam; grossly inadequate. They were welded on the outside only, and most of that weld ground off, leaving the thickness of a beer can holding the seams together.
On the origamiboats site , Opus Paul said he saw one drag anchor, and the transom broke away form the hull when it gently hit a mooring buoy.


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## chall03

robert sailor said:


> There are all sorts of lists out on the internet about offshore boat choices, this one is no different than any of the others, simply one person's opinion and like all opinions they are neither right or wrong. Like everyone else I am opinionated as well and no I do not own a new entry level production boat.


John Neal is probably more qualified than most to have an opinion, and it is one worth taking into consideration but you are correct it a just list of boats to consider written by one sailor. No more no less.

It has in years gone by been somewhat finatically held up as the definitive work on offshore boats - I believe John himself would be uncomfortable with such burden.

On his site is it simple titled 'boats to consider for offshore sailing' and is included at the end of a longer and perhaps more useful section on what he considers desirable attributes in an offshore boat.

It is simply John Neal's list of boats to consider - No more no less.


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## outbound

Yah Chall ... But my boat is finally on the list as is Steve's. 

Wonder if all the boat's owners have to be OCC members to make the list.:laugher:laugher


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## robert sailor

John has done a huge amount of sail training and if you ever really want to learn something well then teach it. He has a strong bias towards HR's and while he is quick to point out the past failures in other builders you never hear or see anything negative about HR's coming from him. This is exactly what you would expect by someone who has been a spokesman for a brand. We are all sheep to some extent and seem to think that anyone who shares our opinion must be smart, lol. I actually share many of his opinions about good boat construction but I also know that the oceans are being crossed by many many production boats that are not on his list. I also see a bit of a hypocritical approach when he puts French Cats on his list but leaves off mono's. My feeling is that they are on his list to attract buyers for his personal recommendation part of his business. Now let me be clear, if I was running a similar business I might do the same thing. There a fewer and fewer new production boats built with reinforced hulls and glassed in bulkheads, the kind both he and I like so it makes sense to update the list if you wish to stay in business. I know of many excellent offshore cruising boats that are not on his list so my feelings are to use a list like this as a very loose guide, do your own due diligence, its half the fun.


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## robert sailor

Another thought just crossed my mind..why would you waste your time getting information on well built offshore boats from someone's "list " when you have folks on this board like Robert Perry and Jeff H who combined have probably forgotten more on the subject than those sailors posting their lists. Most sites don't have the depth in design and build experience that is available here. We are all very fortunate to have individuals with such a deep knowledge base who are available for opinions.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> On the origamiboats site , Opus Paul said he saw one drag anchor, and the transom broke away form the hull when it gently hit a mooring buoy.


I like to occasionally take it on myself to translate BS' BS every once in a while so that we keep things as factual as possible on SN.

Read BS' BS above a couple of times. Now read the actual quotes from his origami site:


> Brent: They used all 1/8th inch plate, which is none too forgiving when corrosion problems begin.It also is much harder to keep fair, and thus they have a lot of filler on them.





> opuspaul: That confirms what I thought. I remember years ago a couple who had one in BC. They dragged anchor and bounced their stern against a mooring bouy. I was surprised that it ripped a hole in the weld along the edge of the transom. I can't see that happening on one of your boats.


The "the transom broke away form [sic] the hull when it gently hit a mooring buoy"? I'll have what Brent is smoking.

Why does anyone trust anything this guy says?


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## chall03

robert sailor said:


> Another thought just crossed my mind..why would you waste your time getting information on well built offshore boats from someone's "list " when you have folks on this board like Robert Perry and Jeff H who combined have probably forgotten more on the subject than those sailors posting their lists. Most sites don't have the depth in design and build experience that is available here. We are all very fortunate to have individuals with such a deep knowledge base who are available for opinions.


We are very fortunate indeed.

Add to this Paulo's enthusiasm when he contributes, the wisdom of the likes of Jon Eisenberg and SV Auspicious, a couple of circumnavigators, a bunch of experienced cruisers like yourself Robert and a stirrer or two to mix things up and you have why I love Sailnet.


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## robert sailor

chall03 said:


> We are very fortunate indeed.
> 
> Add to this Paulo's enthusiasm when he contributes, the wisdom of the likes of Jon Eisenberg and SV Auspicious, a couple of circumnavigators, a bunch of experienced cruisers like yourself Robert and a stirrer or two to mix things up and you have why I love Sailnet.


Couldn't agree more, lots of sailing knowledge on this site!


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## outbound

Sure be curious about Steve's opinion on metal v. glass. He has cruised extensively in glass ( mason 44) and now in metal ( Boreal 44). 
Have friend who has done tens of thousands of miles in solid glass (V42 & Outbound 46), cored glass and now CF/foam. With the CF boat some troubles with metal deck fittings (issue of SS already mentioned). Current boat has no chainplates, eyes or other things. All that stuff is CF and part of original lay up. Connections to stays dyneema cord. But stantions, davit fittings and the like are not apparently well isolated. Boat has done two circumnavigations and looks new except at those spots. He likes V42 Outbound. He thinks with such boats carrying the loads they do and with polars they have going to CF for rudder posts or rigs or even hulls would produce such modest increase in performance as to not justify expense. I note his CF cat can exceed theoretical hull speed with ease. He can do the New England to BVI passage in in half the time I can. He is sailing when I have the engine on ( goes on if sog is 5 or below). 
Wonder what's technique for isolation?


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## chall03

outbound said:


> Sure be curious about Steve's opinion on metal v. glass. He has cruised extensively in glass ( mason 44) and now in metal ( Boreal 44).


+1

I also have Boreal Envy. They are seriously nice boats.


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## robert sailor

One real advantage to aluminum is that you can create a one off of custom design/build at reasonable costs compared to glass. There are other advantages as well but if I was shopping for a custom one off I would go with aluminum


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## hannah2

Chall03, Nice to have you on board. There are enough Boreals out there now that I don't know everyone. PM me sometime, I'd love to hear more of your boat.

First, on the list that John made. He does update it when he gets info on a boat he thinks should be on the list. He had a client that was interested in a Boreal and contacted my wife Tracy about how we liked our Boreal. We also met with John and Amada for a brief visit down in Panama and talked some more about the Boreal and that was a great visit. 

Outbound, The mystery of owning an aluminum boat is now gone as we have had ours for a couple of years now. All the worry about corrosion have past. We have left the boat on the hard in Panama as a precaution to a bad marina. Not that the marina we are at has a bad problem but just in case a boat with bad power moved in beside us. There are plenty of aluminum boats still being left at a slip unattended for the summer season. Most of these aluminum boats are from Europe and the Europeans are more confident that their boat will not corrode if left at a slip. In Europe most marinas have lousy power and they never seem to have a problem. So I guess what I'm saying is this type of boat is a lot tougher than what a lot of people say about them here in N. America. If anyone has ever been commercial fishing in Alaska on an aluminum boat you will know that they have a habit of throwing old steel blocks in the bilge and they stay there for 20 years or so, still no problem.

As for the Boreal itself. What Chall03 says, "a seriously nice boat". The design is amazing as she does passages across oceans in an amazing sea kindly way. Withe lee dagger board down there is no wobble of the ass end that you get on many cutter rigs on a long broad reach. The aluminum is quiet beyond belief with its 3 inches of insulation. And she goes to weather very nicely for a centerboard boat. Also she heaves to better than any boat I have sailed on in the last 40 years. 

Cheers
Steve and Tracy


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## miatapaul

hannah2 said:


> Chall03, Nice to have you on board. There are enough Boreals out there now that I don't know everyone. PM me sometime, I'd love to hear more of your boat.
> 
> First, on the list that John made. He does update it when he gets info on a boat he thinks should be on the list. He had a client that was interested in a Boreal and contacted my wife Tracy about how we liked our Boreal. We also met with John and Amada for a brief visit down in Panama and talked some more about the Boreal and that was a great visit.
> 
> Outbound, The mystery of owning an aluminum boat is now gone as we have had ours for a couple of years now. All the worry about corrosion have past. We have left the boat on the hard in Panama as a precaution to a bad marina. Not that the marina we are at has a bad problem but just in case a boat with bad power moved in beside us. There are plenty of aluminum boats still being left at a slip unattended for the summer season. Most of these aluminum boats are from Europe and the Europeans are more confident that their boat will not corrode if left at a slip. In Europe most marinas have lousy power and they never seem to have a problem. So I guess what I'm saying is this type of boat is a lot tougher than what a lot of people say about them here in N. America. If anyone has ever been commercial fishing in Alaska on an aluminum boat you will know that they have a habit of throwing old steel blocks in the bilge and they stay there for 20 years or so, still no problem.
> 
> As for the Boreal itself. What Chall03 says, "a seriously nice boat". The design is amazing as she does passages across oceans in an amazing sea kindly way. Withe lee dagger board down there is no wobble of the ass end that you get on many cutter rigs on a long broad reach. The aluminum is quiet beyond belief with its 3 inches of insulation. And she goes to weather very nicely for a centerboard boat. Also she heaves to better than any boat I have sailed on in the last 40 years.
> 
> Cheers
> Steve and Tracy


I think Chall03 was saying he has Boreal envy, not a Boreal named Envy! They are beautiful boats though. If i were on a much bigger budget they would be on the top of the list.


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## hannah2

Thanks Miatapaul for the correction, I sometimes see things I really didn't see.


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## outbound

Steve-
I'm delighted you posted. As you know you and Tracy are a inspiration to Cheryl. When we talk about our plans and she gets apprehensive having her know about your extensive voyaging gives her a shot of courage. As you know from ski team fortunately she already has great courage but that extra jolt is quite helpful.
My final list was Boreal and Outbound. Cheryl was put off by what she thought was the complexity of the boat. She didn't want to deal with daggerboards, center boards and the like. Even now she doesn't like dealing with running backs ( only used on passage), vangs, hydraulic back stay and it remains my job to trim those.
Still, I often wonder about the Boreal once they agreed to put in a more American style galley and spec to U.S. standards it was truly a 50/50 choice for me.
You point out a key attribute for a good cruising boat. Just went to the SDR seminars yesterday. Lecturers on sail plan had pointed out on passage and circumnavigating 63% of the time is spent with wind 90-160 degrees apparent with winds 10-25k true. 
Your boat with its leeboard down and my boat given its fine entry and exit track with no squirrelnest. Beyond favorable gyradius ( you have your chain next to the mast- I have all tanks below sole near center of gravity) I think hull design that minimizes cork screwing is as important as the absence of slamming and pounding up wind.
Leaving for a week with Cheryl. She has lost the drama queen persona coming into new anchorages so should be great fun now school has started and the world will be our own.


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## Prinsloo007

Thanks for updates. Interesting also that no Hans Christian's are listed. The 33's in particular are known for there blue-water prowess. I have a HC38T and after many miles I trust her with my life! Comfortable too, and built like a tank. Performance is moderate, but she will always arrive!


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## miatapaul

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for updates. Interesting also that no Hans Christian's are listed. The 33's in particular are known for there blue-water prowess. I have a HC38T and after many miles I trust her with my life! Comfortable too, and built like a tank. Performance is moderate, but she will always arrive!


Any list is going to leave some off, no matter how complete. Seems that no matter what the chances it will be left off goes way up if you happen to own that boat! Hans Christians are pretty pretty boats, and very capable! I would not hesitate taking one around the world if I knew her to be well found.


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## cshrimpt

You have Pacific Seacraft marked as out of business. They are still building boats using W.I.B. Crealock's designs, albeit under new management.

-C


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## captainroy

Ray, my name is Roy. .Roy, I Built Full Sail In British Columbia Canada a few years ago my phone number is 604 846 5781 would like to have a word with you if you don't mind, thanks, Roy Robinson .


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## Chrisfromnc40

I guess I need to stop looking at Jeanneau. I thought them a strong boat. What did I miss?

~Chris


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## miatapaul

Chrisfromnc40 said:


> I guess I need to stop looking at Jeanneau. I thought them a strong boat. What did I miss?
> 
> ~Chris


Jeanneau is a well made production boat, similar to any production boat like Beneteau, Catalina, Hunter etc. Designed for coastal sailing. Fine for offshore work, but this list is more for long term offshore distance cruising. For that the sea motion of a designed for offshore boat is better. If you want to do a crossing or two you will be fine, but if you plan on long term sailing where weather windows are not as reliable you will be better served with something built for it.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## Washaki

Category A EU RCD certifications, but that doesn't necessarily indicate that their boats are suitable for extended bluewater voyaging. Many of their boats which are EU RCD A certified are not suitable due to a serious lack of proper handholds, unseakindly motion, lack of tankage and stowage, etc.


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## aa3jy

Good morning Washaki..where in South Dakota you hail from? Really enjoyed being in an around the Black Hills made my assignment at Ellsworth AFB much more bearable.. 

Regards,

Clay AA3JY
S/V Tango

CR 34 (rated Cat. A)


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## outbound

One of the most unforgettable rides. All the animals, the contrast between badlands and black hills, how quickly the weather varied, needles, Custer, etc.
I like to ride as sun comes up or goes down. That’s the only downer. Truly a no-no in your neck of the woods.
Where do you sail?

Problem with all lists are they are subjective and in one facet or another flawed. The EU speaks to boats as they come “out the door”. ABYC, Lloyd’s, norske veritas, German Lloyd, whatever have requirements or lack requirements that a sub specialist in that facet can cogently argue. Furthermore even in a particular production run there’s a fairly wide variance between the execution of individual boats. Then there’s wear and tear and adequacy of maintenance.
In science and medicine you are taught to not accept or reject a given null hypothesis as “more likely than not” and therefore fact until multiple rigorous studies have demonstrated it. Think it’s the same with a boat you are going to bet your life on. Sure it gives comfort when your boat carries these certificates and appears on these lists. It gives greater comfort if she not only does but also passes survey and you have acquired some level of knowledge as to what makes a good bwb and your boat meets your standards.


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## capta

Do any of these lists actually consider the livability of these boats, underway or at sea? To me, that is one of the most important considerations when I am seeking a boat that will be my home on the water.


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## Lazerbrains

outbound said:


> One of the most unforgettable rides. All the animals, the contrast between badlands and black hills, how quickly the weather varied, needles, Custer, etc.
> I like to ride as sun comes up or goes down. That's the only downer. Truly a no-no in your neck of the woods.
> Where do you sail?


I grew up in the Black Hills - beautiful place to live. Unfortunately, no place to really sail other than maybe a sailing dinghy or HobieCat. For the mountain lakes, waterskiing is the way to spend time on the water.

And you are right, the riding is some of the best in the country - half the reason the Sturgis rally is so big.


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## outbound

Ya . You only need so many T shirts. Went down Main Street. Didn’t even get off the bike. Next time Yellowstone. 
If you come out to the east the dragon tail and Cabot’s will catch your attention.


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## aa3jy

Lazerbrains said:


> I grew up in the Black Hills - beautiful place to live.
> 
> And you are right, the riding is some of the best in the country - half the reason the Sturgis rally is so big.


Can't beat a full moon night ride through the Bad Lands..visit the spirits at Wounded Knee memorial..or climb Bear Butte and watch the sun rise..

Pactola Reservoir is probably the closest and largest body of water for sailing closest to Rapid City in the ' Hills.


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## ImGary01

outbound said:


> Ya . You only need so many T shirts. Went down Main Street. Didn't even get off the bike. Next time Yellowstone.
> If you come out to the east the dragon tail and Cabot's will catch your attention.


I'm from Richmond and have ridden my HD FLHSTC on the Tail of the Dragon, Devil's Backbone many times.


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## outbound

Too much fun leaving sparks on the turns. Should be illegal.


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## amandacian

Their online list from April of 2007 doesn't have the Passport 40. Last time I checked, the Passport 40 was supposed to be a fair to middlin' (or excellent) Bluewater transoceanic boat... but to each their own.


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