# Hull numbers



## JLBJR (Sep 16, 2006)

I often see people refering to their boat use a hull number. Like Sabre 28 Hull 400. Is the hull number part of the registration number? If not where would the hull number be listed?

Thanks,

JLBJR


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

the hull # is foun din the HIN (similar to VIN, but for boats). It is etched or imprinted in the hull, usually at the starboard quarter or stern. Currently the hull number for your boat is generally found in the 6th, 7th, and 8th digits of your HIN (there was a different protocol previously, I forget the exact year of the change but I think it was early 80s). 

E.g. With HIN "CYA42273D889" the hull # would be "273".


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The HIN (Hull Identification Number) is the equivalent of the VIN (Vehicle Identification Number) on a car. Since 1972(?) they have been required to be molded into the fiberglass on the upper outer rear transom on glass boats, or permanently affixed on a plate on others.

The "Hull Number" is not necessarily the HIN. It should appear as a part of it, the same way that the engine serial/production number is in a car's VIN. ANd it should appear on the boat's registration and title papers, the same way. But when a boatbuilder says "Hull number twelve" it just means the twelfth boat built in that series.

See http://boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/hin.htm for details.


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## JLBJR (Sep 16, 2006)

Wow, that was fast, thanks for the insight. So if I got this correct, with an identification number of FLZ1604000380 would the hull number be 040, or the 40th Hull for that model and year?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

JLBJR said:


> Wow, that was fast, thanks for the insight. So if I got this correct, with an identification number of FLZ1604000380 would the hull number be 040, or the 40th Hull for that model and year?


I recalled reading somewhere that the prefix FLZ is used in Florida to designate a homemade boat. After a quick search I found David Pasco's website, with the following passage:


> Many states have a provision in their titling law that allows for the reassignment of a hull and registration number. This is called the "homemade boat" provision which provides the opportunity for a great deal of mischief. Let's say, for example, that I acquired a 1976, 29' Seabird hull and completely rebuilt it with new deck, interior and engines, etc. I could apply for a new title under the homemade boat provision and be assigned an entirely new hull number and title. In Florida, the new number assigned would have an FLZ prefix that indicates a homemade boat. The problem here is that stolen boat artists can do the same thing with any stolen boat. Therefore, any boat with an FLZ prefix should be viewed with great caution.


This certainly doesn't prove anything about the history of your boat, but it is interesting to note.


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

Thanks TB; I'm always learning something from this site.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The way I reaed it:
FLZ1604000380
means:
FLZ (manufacturer) 160400 (hull number) 0380 (production date)
Assuming I'm misreading that and it should be:
FLZ (manufacturer) 16(model) 0400 (hull number) 0380 (production date)

that would still mean hull number 400, not 40. And a Sabre with an FLZ number would possibly indicate someone reclaimed a junked hull and "remanufactured" it?

Best to call your local DMV and ask them about the exact HIN you are looking at. In some states the length of HINs changed several year ago, making things more complicated. My friend tried to change his registration to reflect buying out a partner and correcting some errors--and the DMV refused to take the HIN that was on the title and registration, insisting the number had to be padded out one longer and he had to bring in a tracing of the one on the boat.


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## JLBJR (Sep 16, 2006)

Well this is turning out to be quite the mystery, after my reply I realized the problem with FLZ designation as being a Florida Homemade boat. With my interest peaked I went down to the dock to see if I could find the actual number on the boat rather then on the title. I searched the transom as indicated on the website that hellosailor listed, but no luck. I did however find a number glassed into the hull under the starboard settee. The number, in large letters is NO579808 NET5 I am going to send it to Sabre and see if they can help me. I do know that the boat has been in Florida for quite some time, a friend at the yacht club recognized it as owned by an old friend of his who sold it to the guy I bought it from last year. It fits the description of a Sabre 28 MK2 with the full galley option, but it has a Westerbeke 10 TWO diesel which I was told was added in 98. See what a simple question on Sailnet can uncover. The Plot Thickens!!

JLBJR


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

JLBJR,

That number is not the HIN. It is the Federal Documentation number, issued by the Coast Guard.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Here's the USCG Vessel Documentation website. I entered *NO579808 NET5* but there're too many digits.* NO579808* came up empty as well. Once the initial fee is paid, annual renewal is free, but of course if the renewal form is not sent in, I believe the vessel is dropped from the list.

I wonder if the CG shares expired information.


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## JLBJR (Sep 16, 2006)

TrueBlue and JohnRPollard

I went to the CG site too and noticed they are asking for a 7 digit number. As I said earlier, the plot thickens. I did email Sabre and they have been very responsive in the past so I am hopeful that they can help. I'll kep you posted on my progress.

JLBJR


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

The documentation number is usually 6 digits, so in your case what is on your boat should be read as No. 579808. But if you search on the CG site for 579808 there's no match. It could be the documentation lapsed. You can call the documentation office and check -- they are most helpful there.

There also seems to be an extra digit in what you gave as the HIN. But by now you know how maddening the HIN game can be.


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

Not to go off topic, but I need to etch the CG Documentation Number onto my hull?


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## JLBJR (Sep 16, 2006)

This is as bad as trying to find a leak, but as alway the friends on SailNet are filled with knowledge that they are more then willing to share. I took a photo of the number but can't figure out how to attach it. Suggestion?


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Max-on - The documentation number has to be placed somewhere on the interior of your vessel in a manner that it can't be easily removed. On our boat, the documentation number was placed on a shower wall with stick on numbers (or something of the sort), and then epoxied and painted over. As a result, they are the same color as the wall of the shower but stand out by a fraction of an inch. It took me forever to find the number.


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

labatt said:


> Max-on - The documentation number has to be placed somewhere on the interior of your vessel in a manner that it can't be easily removed. On our boat, the documentation number was placed on a shower wall with stick on numbers (or something of the sort), and then epoxied and painted over. As a result, they are the same color as the wall of the shower but stand out by a fraction of an inch. It took me forever to find the number.


Thanks Labatt; I guess I better take care of that! I like that idea, simple, stick-on numbers and epoxy over.


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## JLBJR (Sep 16, 2006)

What is the advantage, if any to being Coast Guard documented?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Jlbjr-

If you travel to foreign ports, state registration isn't generally recognized. Also, USCG documented vessels can fly the US flag and are considered US territory IIRC.

Finally, the USCG documentation number is now up to SEVEN digits... since my boat's number is seven digits... it can't be only six digits anymore.

Also, the USCG documentation number must be marked in a way that will be clearly show if the number is defaced or removed in the for "No #######" with letters at least 3" in height.

The way I did it was to get a copper die of the numbers and then I bolted and epoxied the plate to the interior of the boat.

*Edit:* height is 3" not 4" for USCG Doc. Number


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## JLBJR (Sep 16, 2006)

sailingdog:

Interesting. I will call them tomorrow and see what they have to say about reinstating the existing numbers if they were in fact CG reg numbers. 

It is amazing where a simple question can lead to. While I was crawling into the Lazzerette today looking for the hull number I spoted what looks like a fan mounted in the corner between the starboard locker and the lazzerette that attaches to a metal vent in the aft corner of the boat. I emailed Sabre asking them if they could shed any light on what purpose this might have or have had.

JLBJR


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The hull number is supposed to be marked in two locations, one being the starboard transom, the other is specific to the manufacturer for the model. 

BTW, the USCG Documentation number needs to be clearly visible on some part of the interior of the boat.


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## JLBJR (Sep 16, 2006)

sailing dog

If you read the begining of the thread you will see that johnrpollard and hellosailor pointed that out in an earlier reply to my original question. The hunt for the hull number is what started this goose chase. I am looking forward to a response from sabre.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

JLBJR-

Actually, no one mentioned that the HIN is required to be marked on the vessel in two locations.

There are two different numbers we're discussing here. The HIN is issued by the manufacturer, and has been required since 1972 and is marked in two locations on a boat. One location is the starboard transom, the other is specific to the make/model of the boat, and is usually hidden to some degree to prevent easy modification or removal in case of theft of the boat. 

The second number we've mentioned is the USCG Documentation number. This is a six or seven digit number that must be marked on a clearly visible interior structural portion of the boat in such a way that any alteration or removal of the number would be clearly obvious. The USCG documentation number must be in the form "No #######" in letters no letter than 3" in height. 

If the boat was previously USCG documented...they'll probably re-instate the old number.


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

sailingdog said:


> Also, the USCG documentation number must be marked in a way that will be clearly show if the number is defaced or removed in the for "No #######" with letters at least 3" in height.
> 
> The way I did it was to get a copper die of the numbers and then I bolted and epoxied the plate to the interior of the boat.
> 
> *Edit:* height is 3" not 4" for USCG Doc. Number


Thanks SailingDog. How visible does it have to be; for example, could it be under a settee in a storage area??


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## JLBJR (Sep 16, 2006)

sailingdog:

I love this, an endless stream of knowledge from around the world! The internet really is amazing. I have found old brochures and manuals, tech specs and templates, not to mention answers to dozens of questions. All that and spell check too!!

Thanks!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

AFAIK, it has to be clearly visible from the cabin...so not in a storage area. I don't believe it can be in a storage area or otherwise not visible if a cabinet door or such is closed.

Mine is mounted about 8" off the floor, and only visible if you're inside the boat. I would recommend that the number not be visible from outside the boat for security reasons... but that's just me.



max-on said:


> Thanks SailingDog. How visible does it have to be; for example, could it be under a settee in a storage area??


JBLJR-

Glad to help.  BTW, those are pretty definitely USCG Documentation numbers. The Net 5 probably refers to the net gross displacement of the vessel. It must be a fairly small boat, since it is only five net tons, which is the minimum for USCG documentation IIRC.


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

Thanks SD. I better take care of that before next spring!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Max-on-

Yeah, the USCG gets testy and nasty if they board you and you are a documented vessel but don't have the numbers posted.


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

sailingdog said:


> Max-on-
> 
> Yeah, the USCG gets testy and nasty if they board you and you are a documented vessel but don't have the numbers posted.


That's all I would need; maybe RIDEM would stop by too and it would be a real party. At least I have my poo poo sticker for the head. 

I have a friend in the CG stationed here, I'll call and ask him the specifics; or I could just 'look it up" - but why would I want to do that!


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Documentation numbers must be at least 3" high and must be permanently marked on a *visible part of the interior structure*. The documented boat's name and hailing port must be displayed on the exterior hull in letters not less than 4 inches in height.

"Your vessel's documentation number must be
permanently affixed to an "integral interior structural member" of the
vessel (e.g. main beam, stringer or some rigid hull material)."
http://www.uscg.mil/d7/units/mso-tampa/spv_guide/J_UninspUS.pdf


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

sailingdog said:


> AFAIK, it has to be clearly visible from the cabin...so not in a storage area. I don't believe it can be in a storage area or otherwise not visible if a cabinet door or such is closed.


It is acceptable to display the vessel's USCG Doc # in a storage locker or lazerette, IF it's affixed to the hull and not on a removable component.

Our number is _inside_ the chain locker, stenciled directly to the starboard hull and coated with clear epoxy - it's been there from the original owner and is a typical location for many boats we've inspected.


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## I33 (Mar 5, 2007)

*Source for regs*

Cam's reference is helpful, but not authoritative. If you will note, there is a disclaimer that this information is for the Tampa area only.

Unfortunately, the only source with the weight of the Federal Govt. is the CFRs--the Code of Federal Regulations. They have the force of law and WILL be the source used if you are hapless enough to be hauled into court over some incident.

The CFRs are available, but I will be the first to admit they are a PITA to read and understand. I sure wish there was a simpler way, but I can't think of one.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I33...my reference was indeed for Tampa Bay...but my assumption is that the CG's FEDERAL regulations are the same everywhere and the Tampa specific regs are to deal with state/local regulations regarding state registration and numbers etc....Similar regs are to be found for many different areas of the country.


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

I33 said:


> The CFRs are available, but I will be the first to admit they are a PITA to read and understand. I sure wish there was a simpler way, but I can't think of one.


That's why I did not want to 'look it up', but now that I'm in the office mabe I will.


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

Ok, quick reference from the USCG Documentation site:

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/faq.htm#15

*"HOW DO I MARK MY VESSEL?*

_The official number assigned to documented vessels, preceded of the abbreviation "NO." must be marked in block-type Arabic numerals at least three inches high on some clearly visible interior structural part of the hull. The number must be permanently affixed so that alteration, removal, or replacement would be obvious and cause some scarring or damage to the surrounding hull area._

_The name and hailing port of a recreational vessel must be marked together on some clearly visible exterior part of the hull. The vessel name of a commercial vessel must also be marked on the port and starboard bow and the vessel name and the hailing port must also be marked on the stern. All markings may be made by any means and materials that result in durable markings and must be at least four inches in height, made in clearly legible letters of the Latin alphabet or Arabic or Roman numerals. The "hailing port" must include both a place and a State, Territory, or possession of in the United States. The state may be abbreviated."_


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Thanks Max...that should settle it...but one never knows around here! (g)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

Very interesting...that isn't what I was told by the USCG documentation office people I spoke to, two years ago, when I was prepping my boat for USCG documentation. Also, the local USCG personnel I've spoken to said that it needed to be visible in the cabin...not in a locker...



TrueBlue said:


> It is acceptable to display the vessel's USCG Doc # in a storage locker or lazerette, IF it's affixed to the hull and not on a removable component.
> 
> Our number is _inside_ the chain locker, stenciled directly to the starboard hull and coated with clear epoxy - it's been there from the original owner and is a typical location for many boats we've inspected.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

See...I told ya Max!! (g)


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

SD,
I'm not an expert with USCG Documentation, just repeating what was told to me by my broker, who was the first Nauticat dealer to import the boats for sale in the US back in the early 80's. He said the chain locker location is customary with most of the Nauticats he has seen. The location also has prior approval from the USCG.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

But that would seem to violate the actual wording from the USCG:

_The official number assigned to documented vessels, preceded of the abbreviation "NO." must be marked in block-type Arabic numerals at least three inches high on some *clearly visible interior structural part of the hull*. The number must be permanently affixed so that alteration, removal, or replacement would be obvious and cause some scarring or damage to the surrounding hull area.

_As the interior of a locker isn't generally considered a clearly visible interior structural part of the hull IMHO. It is only clearly visible if the locker is open. And merely painting it there would seem to violate the part that says that "alteration, removal, or replacement would be obvious and cause some scarring or damage to the surrounding hull area", *since it could probably be painted over relatively easily in a manner that would be hard to notice. *_

_The USCG Documentation numbering on my boat is raised numbering on a copper plate that has been bolted and epoxied to the interior of the hull. You'd need a cold chisel to get the plate off and that would effectively destroy the section it is mounted to. To alter or deface the numbers is also very difficult, since they are raised number on a copper plate. _
_


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

Ok, _the quick and dirty informal answer_, I just talked with a firend with the CG here, the "general rule" and the guidance given to the officers is that the number must be 'affixed' to a 'structural' part of the boat: hull, stringer, etc. Also, the "general rule", 'affixed' means something that cannot be removed with a handtool, ie. screwdriver, scraper, etc., and 'structural' generally is not a cabinet, bulkhead, nav station, or other interior furnishings - something the owner could remove from the boat.

What the CG has 'approved' for fiberglass sailboats is the numbers etched directly into the hull/stringer or fiberglass affixed (ie. epoxied) to the hull/stringer with the etching, or numbers etched into a placard of wood or some other material that is fiberglassed to the hull.

The numbers must be in a location that is easily visible upon inspection by the CG, it can be in a locker area, bildge area, etc., and it does not need to be visible when standing in the cabin, so long as the owner can show the CG officer, here it is, and the officer easily can see it.

Vinyl or plastic numbering glued/epoxied to the hull, stringer, etc., generally is not acceptabe as it can be removed with a scraper. A placard screwed to the hull/stringer that can be removed with a screwdriver, scraper, or other hand tool is not acceptable.

*Oh by the way, DISCLAIMER, you are not to rely on this information for any purpose, it is stated for entertainment purposes only, there are no warranties actual or implied, and you should check with you local US Coast Guard Station for documentation compliance information.*


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

By definition, and for the sake of this discussion, wouldn't any boat space located below and separate from the decks or cabin roofs, be considered as a boat's "interior"? 

Also, if the USCG intended the number to be displayed within a cabin, I think they would word it so. Additionally, I don't believe a prerequisite for documentation exists, that precludes boats without cabins, or finished spaces, from Documentation.

Edit - max types faster than me . . . figures, being an attorney. (g)


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

TrueBlue said:


> Edit - max types faster than me . . . figures, being an attorney. (g)


But TB, you are better with drawing and coloring with crayons!!


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I like to color outside the lines though.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> where would the hull number be listed?


You can usually find them on the sails. Logical huh  ??

_....but don't go looking for the sail number on the hull...._


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"You can usually find them on the sails."
On a NEW BOAT where the owner ORDERED THE OPTIONAL SAIL NUMBERS, sure. On an older boat, with replacement sails, or if the owner applied to USSA for other numbers, or just stuck on "vanity" numbers?

The hull number *might* match the sail number, just as easily might not, especially if it isn't a one-design fleet.


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## SailinJay (Dec 6, 2002)

Not to beat this to death, but I placed my documentation number in the bilge area in the main cabin, which is clearly visible for inspection when the bilge hatch is opened, and in the starboard cockpit locker on the hull, which is visible when the locker hatch is opened. I used the stick-on lettering then covered it with two coats of epoxy. 

Having some experience with federal regulations, I don't think the USCG will argue if (1) the documentation number has been affixed, and (2) they can see it without much trouble.


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## JLBJR (Sep 16, 2006)

Found it! I guess I was not leaning over the rail far enough and was expecting the numbers to be larger, it is HWS28306M77F. Now comes the fun of getting the title amended. I can’t imagine why it has the FLZ number, certainly modifications have been made over the years but nothing that would qualify it as a home built vessel. The mystery continues.

JLBJR


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

JLBJR said:


> Found it! ..., it is HWS28306M77F.
> JLBJR


So that makes it hull # 306, '77 model? Built in March, or February?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

JL, just a guess but sometimes when there are title problems, someone gets creative and says "Well, just register it as homebuilt and start a new title" and that might be part of the reason you have an FLZ-series. Best to clear it up--but proceed with some caution, in case you meet some new bureaucrat who says "Oh, well that isn't right and shouldn't have been done and now...." your life gets complicated.


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## JLBJR (Sep 16, 2006)

hellosailor, 

Yes, I am torn between leaving well enough alone and setting the record straight. I will wait to see what Sabre turns up before I make any move.

JLBJR


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## JLBJR (Sep 16, 2006)

Ok, the conclusion:

Here is a breakdown of the serial number; HWS28306M77F
HWS – Sabre Yachts
28 – Model
306 – Hull Number
M77 – Model Year is 1977
F – Month of build is January

Sabre was kind enough to send me the original Master Carpenters Certificate and the revised specification sheet that lists all of the options the original owner requested. All in all a very successful ending to the mystery of the missing hull numbers, that were never really missing at all!!


JLBJR


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Good for you JL, we all knew your boat had a fine pedigree and not just the result of someone's backyard project.


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