# Island Packet 35



## SouthernBreeze17 (Dec 30, 2010)

I am considering purchasing a IP 35, and have one question: Just how Slow is an IP 35?

I hear and read alot about how slow the IPs are in light wind. My wife just said: ALL sailboats are slow, so what?

The IP 35 seems to have the accomodations we are looking for in a cruising boat, and from what I read it performs quite well in 15 to 25+ knots of wind.

Other than the occaisional thunderstorm in the summer, we don't have sustained winds at that level on the west coast of FL very often. So I am concerned that at 5-10 knots of winds, we could be purchasing a slow power boat (might as well buy a trawler! and not have to worry about shoals or bridge clearance).

So for any of you with experience sailing an IP 35, what kind of boat speed could we expect with 10 knots of wind close hauled, or beam reach, or broad reaching? We're not interested in racing and really don't care when we get to our cruising destination, but we would like to be able to make the boat move in 5 to 10 knots of wind.

I'd like to be able to buy a boat that should be able to get at least 3 knots on most points of sail in a light (5-10 knot) wind condition.

Thanks
SouthernBreeze


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## DulceSuerna (May 19, 2010)

I am not an IP owner but am gonna chime in my 2 cents so please take it with a grain of salt and dont bash me. Our boat is a Bombay clipper 31 I have been told predecessor to the Ip31 but she is a heavy stout beamy boat. It performs Great in 15-25. We were out last week for a few days in 9-14 mph winds and averaged about 5 knots, occasionaly up to 6.5 . Having said that I think an Ip 35 would perform similar if not a bit faster and closer pointing. Personally I would rather have a boat hat can handle heavier wind easier then one of those super light (but faster in light wind but have to really reef heavy etc in anything in the mid to high teens) type of boats. We thought of a trawler, but for the extra few knots per hour, and not being able to SAIL  we went a different route. We too are on the west coast of Fl and sail winter and summer. Summer sailing seems to have ok to decent breezes many months, and we enjoy the trip wherever we are going. Most sailors I know of power sail often as winds never seem to come from wherew you want them. Having said that we recently motored 24 miles and burned barely 2 gallons of diesel. I think you can easily get your 3 knots on most points in 5-10.


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

Sorry for the brief hijack!!!

I always try to put a shout out to another Bombay Clipper owner. A fine choice in vessels you've made DulceSuerna!!!


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I think the issue is how close hauled to the wind a boat can make effective headway compared to another which seems to be the IP weak point.

If you need to sail someplace upwind and your tacking 15 degrees lower its takes a LOT longer.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

pretty nice accommodations though!

ISLAND PACKET 35 Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com


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## SouthernBreeze17 (Dec 30, 2010)

Tommays,

r.e.

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If you need to sail someplace upwind and your tacking 15 degrees lower its takes a LOT longer.
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An exxcellent point. I have encountered that problem in the past as we were learning to sail the last 7 years on a Hunter 36. Even though, the AWI might show that we were bearing only 40-45 degrees off the wind, 10-15 degrees of leeway meant that our COG was 50-60 degrees off the wind. In time, we have learned to sail the Hunter closer to 30 degrees off the wind as measured by the AWI, but still in certain wind and tide conditions, the COG was well beyond that. One aspect that the broker mentioned about the IP boats is that even though they may not point as high (as measured by the AWI), they have less leeway due to the full keel. This could result in a much smaller difference in actual COG headway toward your destination. He went on to assert that is why the IPs do better in long distance races than the short "daysail" type of course generally set up by your local yacht club.

If the IP "points" 10-15 degrees worse than a typical wing keel boat (and that is a big IF as I don't have any experience with an IP), and has 5-10 degrees less leeway, then the COG difference may be minimal.

Again, it's just a matter of preference of what do you want to do with your boat. If you want to sail a triangular course for an hour or so, that requires one style of boat (and a specific level of effort on the part of the crew). If you want to take off and sail 200 miles or more across open water, that requires another. Then to create a comforatable living quarters for a month or two requires still further differences.

Different strokes for different folks.

Southern Breeze


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The real question would be "How important is sailing to you?" because if sailing is important then an IP is probably the wrong way to go. Living with their poor sailing ability is not so much about speed, but about how much of the time you are willing to motor, or motor sail in proportion tp just plain voyage under sail. Based on my experience sailing on them and around them, below 10 knots they are basically a motorboat with a mast. While you may be able to sail at windspeeds below 10 knots, the boat speed is so slow that you probably wouldn't sail if you had to get somewhere in a reasonable period of time. 

And once the wind blows enough that they can be sailed, my experience with these boats is that have an absolutely terrible VMG because they not only point poorly (mostly because of their rig geometry more than their keel), and have a comparatively slow speed through the water, but also make a huge amount of leeway, at least as compared to boats with more efficient keel configurations. 

But even reaching in a stiff breeze, thier high drag and inefficient sail plans means they are very slow as compared to similar displacement boats with similar LOA's. 

The big surprise is how poorly they sail in heavy going. When you have that much drag, and that inefficient a sail plan, and low density ballast in a shoal draft encapsulated keel, it is hard to carry sufficient sail area to sail well. We ended up reefing early to balance the helm and of course that killed both speed and motion comfort. While thier motion is slow and therefore comfortable for some, to me they rolled and pitched through very wide angles, at least as compared to the boats that I am used to sailing. 

To me, Island Packets make great live aboards if sailing is a low priority. There are people for whom sailing ability is not important. They are comfortable with motoring or motorsailing when they need to get somewhere. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Speaking for myself, their sailing performance would be totally unacceptable to me under any circumstance, and I know that I sometimes take a friends don't let friends buy Island Packets attitude at times, but in reality, there is no one universally correct answer on any of these questions. I would suggest that you charter one and sail the daylights out of it because in reality the only person who can answer this question is you. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## SouthernBreeze17 (Dec 30, 2010)

Jeff,

Thanks for your opinion. I actually appreciate the negative comments, that's how I can evaluate my decision. I have a couple of questions:


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While you may be able to sail at windspeeds below 10 knots, the boat speed is so slow that you probably wouldn't sail if you had to get somewhere in a reasonable period of time
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What do you call "slow"? That was my original question, what speed can be expected below 10 knots? What's acceptable to me, may very well be different than what's acceptable to you.


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compared to boats with more efficient keel configurations
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I agree, I am not particularly enamored with the "low density" keel. I have heard that some IPs simply had pieces of scrap iron dumped in the keel and encapulated. What boats do you consider to be more efficient? If that is a 8 to 9 foot fin keel, then it is simply not reasonable along the west coast of FL and the Bahamas (my intended cruising area). I am in the purchasing decision mode, so I'm open to suggestions. How would you compare it to a Caliber 35?


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I would suggest that you charter one and sail the daylights out of it
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In what universe can I charter something that doesn't say Benehuntalina or Juno on the side?

Thanks 
Southern Breeze


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

If you want to charter an Island Packet you can try Gratitude Yacht Center which is located here on the Chesapeake. Sailboat Charters Rock Hall Maryland | Bareboat Sailboat Charters Chesapeake Bay | Gratitude Yachting Center Rock Hall MD

Smaller independent charter companies will often have IP as well as a broad spectrum of other boats in their fleets, I don't have time to respond to your other questions.

Jeff

Jeff


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

*There's a customer for Every Boat*

Jeff has said it well. 
I would only add that, like all boats power and sail, you have to consider _first_ the 'design brief' for a given design, or in this case an entire line of boats.
*IP* wanted a fairly high-end quality shoal-draft hull with a _lot of interior room_ for living. From that came a long keel with a protected area for prop and rudder in case of groundings, given the shoal cruising areas intended.

Basically it is a trawler hull form with a sail plan above. The fact that it sails poorly is just the reality of that whole design package.

If you sail in deeper waters where you can enjoy the benefits of an efficient keel form and want a hull form intended first for _sailing_... then you ought to consider another brand of boat.

They are nice enough boats, but you just have to _know your real needs_.


LB


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

You can also charter an IP from here:
Island Yachts U.S. Virgin Islands - Charter Vacations

No affiliation, but we'll be giving them a try to escape New England weather.

We've owned 5 boats over the last 20+ years from full keel's to whale bottom center boarders. As others have stated, our advice would be to think about how you like to use your boat, then pick a design that matches the application.
We've also found that the ideal boat for us changed over time, depending on where we wanted to cruise, where we wanted to moor, how many people we wanted to cruise with, etc. Whatever you do, it's unlikely to be your last boat.
We've had 5 LAST boats so far


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## dave6330 (Aug 16, 2006)

I fully realize that this is an OLD thread. 

However, I'd be very interested in hearing from some current (and former) owners of Island Packet 35's. 

Do YOU concur with Jeff's evaluation that the IP 35 is mainly suited for boaters not interested in sailing and that, in fact, they sail poorly in heavy going. Are they REALLY so slow that, in your experience, you had to motorsail in order to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time?


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## ronmckie (May 28, 2013)

I have an Island Packet 35 (1989) for over 26 years and have 1700 hours on the engine (original engine). I USE my boat and while I do have to occasionally motor sail I spend most of my time sailing. I live on the Chesapeake and the wind are typically on the 5-15 kt. range. This has been an excellent boat in all waters (Florida, Bahamas, Bermuda, Chesapeake). The best improvement for speed has been the installation of a feathering prop; it improved my light air performance significantly. She doesn't point as high as I would like (full keel) but she gets me there; safely!


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Nobody has mentioned looks. Too boxy for my tastes. And I, too, would need a boat that pointed higher and was generally faster.


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## Eder (Sep 21, 2009)

I like my IP ...12 knots it's fine but when all other boats are heading for cover in 25 knots I'm still wondering if I should put the first reef in...there's nothing like it...


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

SouthernBreeze17 said:


> Tommays,
> 
> .
> 
> ...


Well that is the biggest problem, they not only point poorly but also make more leeway due to the shoal keel, so it is a double whammy.

I like the look of the boats, and they have a lot of well laid out space below. But that layout also provides some serious issues. The cabinetry makes it very hard to inspect things like chain plates, and on top of that the chain plates are embedded in the hull, so even if you can get to them you can't inspect them without cutting them out. Embedding them is really more of a cost cutting measure than anything else. I am not fond of other build techniques that are not really appropriate in a boat of the price.

But they would be one of the first boats to accept an invitation for a drink on, nice comfortable interior for sure. If you really need shoal draft, it is an option, but for me there is just too much compromise on performance and I am not a racer by any stretch of the term.


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## rlopatterson (Jul 6, 2015)

Jeff_H said:


> The real question would be "How important is sailing to you?" because if sailing is important then an IP is probably the wrong way to go.


I have lurked here for some time and have to disagree with Jeff_H and how he chimes in as a know it all on things he has no expertise at all. If Island Packets were terrible boats, why can't you find a current or past owner with anything negative to say about them other than a few small compromises that are in any boat?

I have SAILED on an IP38 for 567 miles across the Gulf running the engine only to charge the batteries. Sailing is what the boat did and it did it well regardless of what some know it all moderator with no first-hand experience says. The boat sailed awesome and in her element and more comfortable than any boat I have sailed in the GOM. I am retired CG after 27 years.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

rlopatterson said:


> I have lurked here for some time and have to disagree with Jeff_H and how he chimes in as a know it all on things he has no expertise at all. If Island Packets were terrible boats, why can't you find a current or past owner with anything negative to say about them other than a few small compromises that are in any boat?
> 
> I have SAILED on an IP38 for 567 miles across the Gulf running the engine only to charge the batteries. Sailing is what the boat did and it did it well regardless of what some know it all moderator with no first-hand experience says. The boat sailed awesome and in her element and more comfortable than any boat I have sailed in the GOM. I am retired CG after 27 years.


Dear sir, Your satisfaction with the design shows that the IP is the Right boat for Your needs. Your snipping at Jeff is unwarranted. 
I have been reading his posts for quite a few years and I feel that his comments on boats and designs echoes much of what I have learned while doing deliveries over the last 3 decades. 
That said, I do not agree with every single thing he writes, and likely would not disagree with all of your writings either, maybe... (all One of your writings!).

IP's are not "terrible" but they are handicapped in their sailing abilities given their original design brief -- shoal water capability was the driving requirement. The fact that they are able to sail at all above a beam reach shows that they have done all that they can within the constraints of a long straight shoal keel.

As to the opinions of their owners, like all owners who knew what they wanted and paid a lot for it, they are not going to complain! 

So sail on and enjoy your boat.

In parting, I will never forget the IP salesman's comment when I and several other sailors were looking around inside one of their 35 footers at the Seattle winter boat show. When I asked him where I would get my rest on the off watch offshore, given that there were no sea berths in the cabin, just some comfy chairs.... he said that I would sleep on the cabin sole. Oh MY.
So I pointed out that for a quarter million dollars I really wanted a secure berth to sleep in, he said (without a bit of irony) that I was just Not the Right Customer for that boat!
After about 15 years, we all still chuckle at that exchange.
:laugh

Regards,
Loren


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

rlopatterson said:


> I have lurked here for some time and have to disagree with Jeff_H and how he chimes in as a know it all on things he has no expertise at all. If Island Packets were terrible boats, why can't you find a current or past owner with anything negative to say about them other than a few small compromises that are in any boat?


I think that your assumptions are based on a very false understanding of what my comments are based on. I do not consider myself an expert and so would not apply the term 'expertise' to my comments, but my comments are based on my experience with the boats that I am commenting on. In this case, my comments are based on the fact that this is a boat that I have sailed in a range of conditions, and observed in a broader range of conditions. I wrote up my sailing experiences with these boats in detail when they happened and you should be able to find those comments.

But for background, for much of my adult life, I have been invited to sail on boats to help their owners get more out of them. This has given me a chance to experience a lot of different boats first hand, and to develop a relative sense of how they behave relative to the other boats that I have sailed on. I like sailing on boats which are very different than the boats I normally sail. While I have owned boats that range from wooden 1939 full keeled cutters, to comparatively high performance cruisers, I have no dog in this hunt when it comes to commenting on particular makes and models. If I don't have direct experience, my comments will generally note that.

In the case of the Island Packets, I have been invited aboard by Island Packet owners who were very dissatisfied with aspects of their boat's sailing abilities, and were looking to learn to sail them better. They loved the interior volume, and comfortable cockpits, they liked the boat's slower roll rates, and they were mostly pleased with the build quality, but they were sorely disappointed with how the boat sailed.

When I do one of these efforts to coach an owner on how to sail their boat's better, it tends to be somewhat experimental in nature. Anyone who has been through this with me knows that I come aboard with a pocketful of 3x5 cards and make notes on boatspeed through the water, apparent wind angles and speed, true wind angle and speed if available. GPS courses vs. compass courses and so on.

If the boat does not have luff and leech teletales I drop the sails and put them on. I mark the center spoke of the wheel, jib lead positions, and tape an inclinometer to the bulkhead, and then go to work.

I start by getting to a baseline set of adjustments that match textbook settings (telltales flying) and then begin experimenting from there with pointing angles vs speed and leeway. I observe note things like the rudder angle, aeration of the wake, heel angle and so on. I go through multiple rounds of that making notes until I have a sense of the boat's behavior, and then start making sail adjustments and repeat the process until I have a sense of what it takes to optimize the boat for that windspeed and point of sail. I also try to bench mark performance with boats around me.

In the case of the Island Packets I was on, there were a number of complaints about their sailing ability that we were trying to explore. These included poor pointing ability, lots of leeway and weather helm in a breezes over 15 or so knots, and poor light air sailing ability (which they defined as being under 10 knots, a windspeed that I would have called moderate breezes).

We worked on the pointing ability in mid-range windspeeds and concluded that the owners often were trying to pinch and that the boat got a better VMG powered up and not trying to point as high. Even when optimized, the IP's VMG was not very good as compared to similar sized and coastal cruisers, and I doubt that the benchmark boats were as carefully optimized as trimming as aggressively as we were.

Dealing with weather helm in a breeze was a bit more difficult. The weather helm seemed to largely heel angle generated, and that the rudder angle required to keep the boat tracking was slowing the boat down. We experimented with 'fisherman's reefs' (lots of twist), blading out the sails, and ultimately with reducing sail area.

Twisting both sails flattened the boat's heel angle some and helped with weather helm, but at a noticeably reduced speed through the water. Blading out the sails, also reduced weather helm some, and reduced heel less, but still hurt speed. In the end, over 15 knots the best performance and helm balance came from a small reduction in sail, and moderately, but not radical flattening of the sails. That is a pretty low windspeed to have to shorten sail for a boat that is billed as an offshore cruiser. And even at the most optimized, the speed was still slow compared to other boats around us, and frankly was not all that much fun to sail, even though we had picked up close to a knot from where we had started out.

My other observation was that the boat was surprisingly rolly reaching in a short chop, and seemed to collide with waves more violently than I would have expected when beating in those conditions.

The light air issues were two fold. First of all, it was very hard to get the boat to reliably tack through irons in wind speeds below 10 knots. (The owners said, they almost never sail in winds below 10 knots on that boat, but might if we could make the boat sail better.) The owners said that they tended to start their engine to push the bow through and then cut it again. Even so it was hard to keep the boat from swinging past the new pointing angle, which made for a harder time cranking in the sails, (the winches seemed a little low on mechanical advantage for the loads, at least as compared to what I am used to). We ended up improving the tack by tacking slower than they had been trying to, rolling in the genoa until the clew was a foot or so aft of the jibstay, holding onto the new windward sheet to start the bow to swing through then releasing the furler line and windward sheet once the bow was a few degrees on the new tack and pulling in the sail aggressively. The helmsperson also reversed the helm sooner than they had been to keep fro overshooting, which was a delicate balance. Collectively that helped a lot, but was a lot of work, and frankly was too finicky for the owners.

The bigger light air issue was simply keeping the boat moving at a reasonable speed in winds down around 5 knots. We were not able to do much for light air performance, which based on my observations was dismal by any objective standard. In those conditions, we got our clocks cleaned by a Tayana 37, which I don't think of a sterling light air performer. Proper halyard, and outhaul tensions, along with proper sheet lead, traveler, vang, and sheet adjustments helped a little, but not enough to satisfy those owners, or meet my standards for what I would consider a reasonable sailing performance in lighter stuff.

I understand that you and many IP owners may find these characteristics satisfactory, and are very happy with your boats. That said, not all IP owners would agree with you about their boat's sailing abilities. At least based on my observations, I stand by my observations of IP's sailing ability relative to other boats of similar sizes and purposes. While these boats can be made to sail better than they are often sailed, I stand by my statement that if you are buying boat because you enjoy sailing, then the IP is probably not a great choice.

I hope that adding the basis of my comments, helps you and others reading this discussion understand where I am coming from, filter out any bias on my or other's part, and perhaps explain where you differ based on your own experiences.

Jeff


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## rostyvyg (Jun 4, 2017)

Jeff_H said:


> If I don't have direct experience, my comments will generally note that.
> 
> In the case of the Island Packets, I have been invited aboard by Island Packet owners who were very dissatisfied with aspects of their boat's sailing abilities, and were looking to learn to sail them better.
> 
> Jeff


Jeff, would you mind listing exact Island Packet models you sailed? I am trying to understand IP performance related to older (2 digit) models vs newer (3 digit) and smaller models (under 40 feet) vs larger boats (over 40 feet). Your response will be greatly appreciated.


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