# Can anyone give me a valid reason to carry a firearm?



## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

I will say from the beginning I am a Brit although I have spent a long time using firearms.
This is not a pro or anti gun question but a valid question.
When cruising around the world 90% of countries and places you may visit along the way may be perfectly safe and may also require you to hand your firearm in.
Are there any circumstances where cruisers carrying or using a firearm has made a real difference in protecting them. 
On the other hand are they more trouble than they are worth and can they lead to your demise?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We're not allowed to discuss guns here, for any reason. You'll see.

I do think you ask a perfectly legitimate question. I'm not aware of anyone successfully defending themselves aboard with a firearm, but how would I? Where would such information be available, other than rumor?

They are only viable in the hands of someone properly trained. You need to be very knowledgeable of whether it will just escalate the problem or whether you've cornered the dog. The old adage works. You should only bring a gun out when you're ready to fire. That's going to be awfully rare. Admittedly, if I found myself in that rare situation, I would wish I had one.

Ironically, I was just telling my wife at dinner last night that it was futile to bring a gun along when distance cruising. She was insisting that we do anyway and keep it in the safe aboard. Her logic is that I am fully trained (even won some awards) and she would feel safer if I had access. I tried to explain that it was a criminal offense in too many places, or you would be required to surrender it anyway, and thought she would shrug it off. Nope. She said there has to be a place to hide one. I said a dog would sniff it out and she didn't budge. She's generally pretty liberal too. I was laughing that I was the one telling her we weren't going to have one outside the US/Bahamas.


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

Hasn't this dog been beat enough? Accept the country's laws or stay out of their country.
How simple and clear does it have to be before people understand?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MikeGuyver said:


> Hasn't this dog been beat enough? Accept the country's laws or stay out of their country.
> How simple and clear does it have to be before people understand?


Exactly... Or, another approach, might be to avoid sailing to destinations where you might feel at too great a risk without a firearm, to begin with...

Perhaps we should start a pool, on how long this thread lasts? I say it's gone before sundown today, EDT...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> .......Perhaps we should start a pool, on how long this thread lasts? I say it's gone before sundown today, EDT...


I'm in. I say it won't make sundown.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MikeGuyver said:


> Hasn't this dog been beat enough? Accept the country's laws or stay out of their country.
> How simple and clear does it have to be before people understand?


That's like asking every single first grade student why they don't already know everything that was taught to everyone before them.

However, I suspect your reaction is the reason these valid discussions get banned.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)




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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

Bears.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

Guns don't kill threads, people _talking_ about guns kills threads.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Put some popcorn on Gary, I'll grab some beers.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

It may help to think of the gun as a tool for a specific purpose instead of a GUN! with all that surrounds that particular noun. 

It is a tool, and it has fitness for one purpose only. I think of it much like a fire extinguisher. It's okay for what it's designed to do, but useless for anything else. Much like the fire extinguisher you can have arguments about how long it takes the police/fire dept to arrive, but in either self defense, or fire, the cavalry are better suited to the job than the person with the extinguisher/gun. Also, in both cases there is an argument to be made that in some situations it will take too long for the cavalry to arrive before damage is done.

I carry several high quality extinguishers aboard, because I feel the risk of fire vs the PITA of carrying extinguishers and the consideration of how long it takes for the cavalry to arrive. There's really very little downside to carrying an extinguisher, so I do. 

I don't carry a fire extinguisher on my person in the city all the time because the equation doesn't work out in my reckoning. 

Guns come with more PITA than extinguishers do. Outside the USA, much much MUCH more PITA. For me that outweighs the usefulness of having them aboard for the low risk areas I cruise. I may reconsider the equation if I were in bear or pirate infested waters.

There was a time where I did carry a gun (with permit) on my person all the time in the city, but now I tend to just avoid any area where I feel I would "need" it and for the low crime areas it's a little too much like carrying an extinguisher around for me to feel it is useful. 

MedSailor.


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## donjuanluis (Jun 24, 2013)

IMHO, no reason at all. I think being in a legal position won't match the fire or gun power of real criminals. Too much hassle with regulations on most of the places around the world. The only reason I could have one for in my boat is to make noise, or call the atenttion, but a good set of noisy fire crackers would do the same. There is an intersting story on the book Across Islands and Oceans of James Baldwin (page 54), also The book Seize the day by Shirley Billing and many others...


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

MedSailor said:


> I carry several high quality extinguishers aboard...


Me too.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> It may help to think of the gun as a tool for a specific purpose instead of a GUN! with all that surrounds that particular noun.
> 
> It is a tool, and it has fitness for one purpose only. I think of it much like a fire extinguisher. It's okay for what it's designed to do, but useless for anything else. Much like the fire extinguisher you can have arguments about how long it takes the police/fire dept to arrive, but in either self defense, or fire, the cavalry are better suited to the job than the person with the extinguisher/gun. Also, in both cases there is an argument to be made that in some situations it will take too long for the cavalry to arrive before damage is done.
> 
> ...


Damn, if folks keep replying in such a sober, levelheaded fashion, this thread might actually last beyond sunset...



The OP's question about "validity" is a highly subjective and personal one, of course... If anyone truly feels they need to have a gun while cruising, well, that certainly seems "valid" enough, to me... I may not share that view given the sort of cruising I prefer to do, or the experiences I've had in certain areas, but to dismiss someone else's preference as "invalid" seems a bit presumptuous, to me...


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Distress signal?
...


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Damn, if folks keep replying in such a sober, levelheaded fashion, this thread might actually last beyond sunset...


Are you accusing me of being sober??!! I AM a sailor you know! :laugher

MedSailor


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I can think of three situations where a gun might be a useful tool. One is if you are travelling in polar bear territory, such as the Northwest Passage. The other is where you are travelling in remote areas and plan to hunt game. The final one, and the one I suspect most people are really thinking about, is for self-defence against nasty people. 

In all three cases you are consciously choosing to put yourself into a situation where a gun might be useful. While I can see a few rare cruisers putting themselves in the first two situations, it's hard to understand why anyone would choose the third scenario. These days it is fairly easy to know where the danger zones are for cruisers. They are few, so the answer is simple: don't go there.

Of course, there is the risk of crime and even violence everywhere in the world. But a gun is unlikely to be of much use in the vast majority of those situations. If the gun isn't at your side ready to be used, and if you aren't trained to use it effectively, and if you haven't already been taken by surprise by the assault, it's unlikely to be of much help. 

Balanced against this is the very real fact that most countries make it pretty difficult for foreigners to carry guns. And getting caught with one likely means all sorts of legal troubles. On balance, it just seems illogical to carry a gun. There are far better ways to mitigate the risk.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

From my perspective in Europe where we cruise at the moment firearms have to be handed in at the first port of call in every country I can think of. In 5 years cruising around Europe never once have I felt the need for one.
We will soon be spreading our wings a little further and crossing to the Caribbean and beyond.
I often read forums in which (mostly Americans it has to be said) feel the need to carry firearms. I don't know why and that is why I am trying to get more information.
I have never heard of or read anyone preventing a life threatening situation by using a gun. There are recorded situations of a gun escalating the situation an making it far worse than it is.
The difficulty I see is being able to decide that a situation is wrong and still having the time to gen a firearm (presumably from a locked safe). If you did not have time to react and were boarded you may well be forced to open the safe and hand the firearm over.
This then may be used on other cruisers in future.
It is really a difficult decision. 
I am looking for any advantages but all I see at the moment are the disadvantages.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

I don't see the advantage in the Carribean. Even assuming you know how and are willing to use a gun, the reality is that in most places where you might need one you should just avoid. And in the event of boarders... Well they come armed with much bigger guns, a lot more of them, and a lot of people. Unless you are carrying a fire team of Marines with you all armed to the teath anyone who mightbe trouble is going to be better armed anyway. 

Best avoid those situations.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

white74 said:


> Its all here


I saw that... very, very funny but there is a lot of truth in it as well.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Good Lord, this thread is still here?


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I carry an EPIRB on my boat, I have never had to use it.
I carry several fire extinguishers on my boat, I have never had to use them.
I carry an first aid trauma kit on my boat, I have never had to use it.
I carry a lifesling throwable preserver on my boat, I have never had to use it.
I carry safety harnesses, I have never had to use them (worn them, but never fallen overboard).
I carry life vests on my boat, I have never had to use them.
I carry an emergency tiller on my boat, I have never had to use it.
I carry a firearm on my boat, I have never had to use it (at least not on the boat).

Can anybody give me a valid reason to carry any of that stuff on my boat other than "in case I need it."?

I can't believe it! In before the lock!  :clobber


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## Caribbeachbum (Feb 23, 2014)

I'm a US military veteran with multiple expert marksman awards, and an owner of multiple guns. I state these facts to avoid an accusation of being a knee-jerk anti-gun liberal.

In direct answer to your question, I can think of no valid reason to carry a firearm aboard. Those reasons others will assert to be valid are made moot by the laws and cultures of almost every country you will ever visit; and further by the near certainty that you will be unable to successfully use a firearm in any scenario that others argue will make it valid to have. If you go to jail, get murdered as an act of revenge, or spend more in legal costs than would have been stolen, you have not used the firearm successfully.

In the unlikely event that you stumble across a valid reason, the arguments against doing so are so compelling that you're much better off avoiding the scenario that makes the reason valid, rather than packing heat.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Group9 said:


> I carry an EPIRB on my boat, I have never had to use it.
> I carry several fire extinguishers on my boat, I have never had to use them.
> I carry an first aid trauma kit on my boat, I have never had to use it.
> I carry a lifesling throwable preserver on my boat, I have never had to use it.
> ...


One minor distinction...

I might decline to carry a lot of that stuff aboard, if the possession of them were likewise prohibited, or had to be surrendered to the authorities/impounded for the duration of my stay, in the country I wanted to visit... Or, I might just consider going elsewhere, if having an EPIRB or a fire extinguisher aboard my boat was going to prove to be such a hassle, or might subject me to serious trouble if I was found to be in possession of such 'forbidden' gear according to the laws of the host country...

And, if carrying such basic safety gear aboard my boat proved to be such a monumental inconvenience outside of the USA and Bahamas, well... I could still be pretty content spending the rest of my days cruising with all the stuff I felt I needed to remain 'safe', and never venturing beyond those waters... And, if one is still determined to sail around the world, no one is gonna stop you from bringing a gun along, as long as you make the trip a non-stopper, or select your ports of call accordingly...

That has to be one of the more amusing ironies of many American's attitudes about this issue, in that there is no other single country on Earth that offers the breadth and variety of cruising grounds that can be found within the territorial waters of the US, and its 'partner' the Bahamas... If one has to be 'confined' to exploring the waters of one country due to the inconvenience of traveling elsewhere with firearms, sure seems the good ol' USA - and particularly the East coast - is far and away the best place to be 'stuck'...


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

This note clearly says "gub." Why would you want to carry a gub? I'll have to get this initialed by one of our vice presidents.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Ok, the sun must be down by now ?

Nonetheless ... we are leaving the thread intact and in place. 

Why ? Well it's something of a test. 

Discuss guns on board with no political agenda and lets see how it pans but once the train has left the rails ... well I don't need to remnd anyone surely ? 

ps - while I personally agree with much of the sentiment expressed in that video clip reality is it is not appropriate for an On Topic thread so it is out of here. 

Soooooo ..... do carry on but the left wing bleeding heart foreigner is on the prowl.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Nostrodamus said:


> Can anyone give me a valid reason to carry a firearm?


Wombat hunting? :laugher

Just kidding! We love you fuzzy! 

MedSailor


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> One minor distinction...
> 
> I might decline to carry a lot of that stuff aboard, if the possession of them were likewise prohibited, or had to be surrendered to the authorities/impounded for the duration of my stay, in the country I wanted to visit... Or, I might just consider going elsewhere, if having an EPIRB or a fire extinguisher aboard my boat was going to prove to be such a hassle, or might subject me to serious trouble if I was found to be in possession of such 'forbidden' gear according to the laws of the host country...
> 
> ...


Well, when you are talking about carrying a gun into a country that prohibits guns, that's a different story and I wouldn't do it. I'm not going to break any laws of a foreign country because as bad as I don't want to be locked up n the US, I really don't want to be locked up in a foreign country. But, I'm always amazed at how many people bring dope into countries where it's illegal.

The funny thing about these discussions, to me, anyway,is that if one cruiser want to carry a firearm on his boat, and one doesn't, how does that decision by either one affect the other one? And, since it doesn't, what is the purpose of these threads? I have a pretty strong suspicion that 99.999 per cent of cruisers have already made their minds up on this issue and don't plan to be changing their minds based on one person (or several people) on either side saying they think it is a bad decision.

I've got some pretty strong reasons for my opinions that I don't care to go into and I doubt anyone here would want to hear if I did. But, it's not like I flipped a quarter to make my own personal decision on this issue. I made them for reasons, that based on my life experience, and skill sets, makes sense to me. I don't expect my decision matrix to be as valid for everyone, as I feel it is for me.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Ultimately one should look at the FBI and CIA.gov violent, etc. crime statistics (usually downplayed for economic reasons) for the US cities and foreign countries you plan on traveling, etc. 
Its sometimes a hassle, usually requires bonding, permits and strong lockers/safes, and extra insurance for 'just in case', etc. 
Only YOU can make the personal decision based on your own needs, perceptions and firearms ability/expertise .... plus applicable local laws/statutes. 

Youd be surprised how many foreign countries, etc. do allow firearms ... on board, etc.


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## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

Minnesail said:


> This note clearly says "gub." Why would you want to carry a gub? I'll have to get this initialed by one of our vice presidents.


Great quote.. "Take the Money and Run" -- Woody Allen as Virgil Starkwell. LOVED the scene where he played cello in the marching band...

Thanks for the chuckle..

Barry


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## PitApe (Feb 28, 2015)

Group9 said:


> I carry an EPIRB on my boat, I have never had to use it.
> I carry several fire extinguishers on my boat, I have never had to use them.
> I carry an first aid trauma kit on my boat, I have never had to use it.
> I carry a lifesling throwable preserver on my boat, I have never had to use it.
> ...


Which item on your list is by far the most likely to cause you to regret ever having brought it on board?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I appreciate the reasoned responses to the all-too-often unreasonable discussion. Thanks for keeping it going.

To me, carrying a gun would be like carrying the proper glassware for each type of wine:









Or perhaps even better, carrying a hotdog toaster:









(Mostly) Useless...


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

Well, it was fun while it lasted.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

When I circumnavigated in the 70's, I had a double barrel 12 gauge and a 30.30 Marlin with a scope on a rack in the salon. Nobody cared. We even went hunting in Arnhem Land, New Guinea and French Polynesia.
Now I don't think having a weapon is prudent.
The reality is that if you were to keep one on board against the local regulations, and used it for self defense, you'd most likely go to jail in some third world country for the rest of your life, especially if you injured or killed a citizen.


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## captflood (Jan 1, 2011)

GREETINGS EARTHLINGS ; I have TWO big Guns on the boat as a minimum the biggest one on my right arm and an other one on my left arm no other weapons are carried on MY boats Customs and Excies Boarder control will have a field day paper generating and listing the boat for the rummy search squad every time you came home. AS ALWAYS GO SAFE


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## Jim_W (Jul 27, 2014)

MikeOReilly said:


> I appreciate the reasoned responses to the all-too-often unreasonable discussion. Thanks for keeping it going.
> 
> To me, carrying a gun would be like carrying the proper glassware for each type of wine:
> 
> ...


I want one do they come in 12 volt for the boat?


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Jim_W said:


> I want one do they come in 12 volt for the boat?


Sure,you can find 12v stemware at almost any WestMarine.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Why oh why I have to ask ? When, as would seem inevitable, this thread is flushed to the sewer there will be howls of outrage yet it is , in all probability, those same howlers who'll seemingly set out to deliberately derail. 

Stupid stupid stupid. 

We, as in the Mods, have said before that as far as we are concerned Gun threads might as well be dumped into PRWG from the get go simply because we know what will happen and cannot be arsed having to do the amount of moderation that I am already doing right here. 

Such it is. All up to you people but I for one hold up little hope of the thread surviving.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

ONE GUN that many carry, it turns out is needing to be registered in more than one country, state here in the US, is a "FLARE GUN" Yes these plastic items one uses to set off aerial flares needs a permit, to be declared etc in many many area's. There was a thread in the jeanneau owners site a bit ago about these "guns" that many of us carry mind you, that need to be declared etc. 

Turns out with a new law here in washington state where I am, I am now a law non abiding citizen with two of these plastic "flare guns" that are not registered as of yet! All of the local marine chandlers had to send their flare kits back to manufactures etc, as they did not want to deal with the laws in selling to folks locally. Or at least most that I know of have done so.......

Take this for what it is worth.....

I too luv to shoot at our furry murderator mascot, mr womby....... then again, he is sort of a luvable furry thing at that.

With this, I will not wade into this any more than I have.

Marty


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Nostrodamus said:


> .....I have never heard of or read anyone preventing a life threatening situation by using a gun. There are recorded situations of a gun escalating the situation an making it far worse than it is.
> .....


Aboard a boat? I would love to see a reference.

There are many documented incidents in both directions on land.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

You might carry one to put the leaky Perkins out of it's misery.


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## Bruce3966 (Feb 8, 2015)

Interesting..my gun thread I posted 2 weeks ago went away to a thread accessed by password only within a 4 hour period. This before I knew we weren't supposed to use the 3 letter word here.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Bruce3966 said:


> Interesting..my gun thread I posted 2 weeks ago went away to a thread accessed by password only within a 4 hour period. This before I knew we weren't supposed to use the 3 letter word here.


Yep, and around the same time another one was also moved to PRWG. This time because of the oh so shock horror responses to the move(s) I/We decided to let this one run and see how it panned out. Already three posts have been deleted and one edited, warnings have been issued and I for one would not put money on the thing surviving. Consider this as something of a social experiment.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

To answer the question in the subject line: to kill someone or some animal.
Simple as that.
John


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## Bruce3966 (Feb 8, 2015)

tdw said:


> Yep, and around the same time another one was also moved to PRWG. This time because of the oh so shock horror responses to the move(s) I/We decided to let this one run and see how it panned out. Already three posts have been deleted and one edited, warnings have been issued and I for one would not put money on the thing surviving. Consider this as something of a social experiment.


I understand and have no issues with it. Every site has it's own rules. I'll just keep my gun talks with my huntin' buddies.

Can we talk about using flare guns or maybe a roman candle as protection?


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

Simple answer no i can't give you any reason to have a gun onboard.
If you were a phalically challenged power boater than maybe they have a reason.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> > Originally Posted by Nostrodamus View Post
> >
> > .....I have never heard of or read anyone preventing a life threatening situation by using a gun. There are recorded situations of a gun escalating the situation an making it far worse than it is.
> 
> ...


Here's one, the pretty well known account of the attack on the yachts MAHDI and GANDALF off Yemen years ago..

Attacked by Pirates | Cruising World

I would not be surprised if many instances have gone unreported, for obvious reasons... I've met 3 different cruisers over the years, in Jamaica, Belize, and the Bahamas, who told stories of having warded off some bad guys with the use of a firearm... All of them sounded credible, to me...

I've also heard a couple of others, but dismissed them as sounding somewhat 'embellished', to say the least...


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

I would be curious to read any accounts of someone successfully cruising with a weapon aboard. It seems that these threads always are filled with those who caution against cruising with a gun, and those who swear they never leave home without one (but have never left 'Murica). I just wonder if anyone has say puddle jumped (recently) with one, checking it in and out of most countries, or hiding it from officials in other countries. Any real world experiences out there?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

The solution is totally simple. Bring a 3D printer with you.

When you check in to a new country you do not have a gun.

After clearing in print yourself up a gun.

When you leave the country throw it overboard or sell it.

You then have a gun but never have to check in or out with it.

PS:

I'm kidding of course, but it is fun to imagine.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

blt2ski said:


> ONE GUN that many carry, it turns out is needing to be registered in more than one country, state here in the US, is a "FLARE GUN" Yes these plastic items one uses to set off aerial flares needs a permit, to be declared etc in many many area's. There was a thread in the jeanneau owners site a bit ago about these "guns" that many of us carry mind you, that need to be declared etc.
> 
> Turns out with a new law here in washington state where I am, I am now a law non abiding citizen with two of these plastic "flare guns" that are not registered as of yet! All of the local marine chandlers had to send their flare kits back to manufactures etc, as they did not want to deal with the laws in selling to folks locally. Or at least most that I know of have done so.......
> 
> ...


Got an RCW for this? Don't buy it, haven't heard of it. If it was a law, the Coast Gaurd inspections just went to Davy Jones Locker. No one would be Coast Guard compliant without gun registry on board.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Just did a search. Our flare guns are PYROTECHNIC launching devices... Not firearms. There are separate ATF laws that govern flares etc.. 

No intent here to hijack or get into it with anyone. This loopy state passed a GUN law last year that is so convoluted and confusing, it can't be enforced. The law is so loopy that you can read it to say whatever you want a gun law to be.

Think I even saw flare guns at my local marine store last week.


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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

blt2ski said:


> ONE GUN that many carry, it turns out is needing to be registered in more than one country, state here in the US, is a "FLARE GUN" Yes these plastic items one uses to set off aerial flares needs a permit, to be declared etc in many many area's. There was a thread in the jeanneau owners site a bit ago about these "guns" that many of us carry mind you, that need to be declared etc.
> 
> Turns out with a new law here in washington state where I am, I am now a law non abiding citizen with two of these plastic "flare guns" that are not registered as of yet! All of the local marine chandlers had to send their flare kits back to manufactures etc, as they did not want to deal with the laws in selling to folks locally. Or at least most that I know of have done so.......
> 
> ...


Presumably you mean I-594, the initiative to close the "gun show" loophole. It deals with background checks on sale/transfer of guns, but did NOT change the definition of a firearm. See RCW 9.41.010. If flareguns were "firearms" before the law was enacted, they are now; if they weren't before, they are not now. It also did not add any registration requirements to possession of guns OR flareguns.

I suppose that if the state decided to treat flareguns as "firearms" (the statutory definition of a "firework" also fits them pretty well), the new law could be interpreted to require a background check on transfer of a flaregun (I can't see any court reading it this way, despite the "sky is falling" rhetoric on certain web postings), but it does NOT make you register possession of one. There are those who claim that I-594 is somehow a stealthy effort to establish a gun registry here in Washington. It is not.

The law also makes an exemption for a transfer that is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury. I'm pretty sure that even if a flaregun WERE held to be a firearm, you would be OK to give someone one to use in an emergency.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

I remember when I was ten or eleven years old. I'm sixty now. I used to enjoy building car models from plastic kits. As I assembled them, I would often modify them to make them appear more authentic by adding things like thread to mimic spark plug wires. As I assembled the individual components, I would paint them prior to final assembly. Despite my reasonable efforts, I recall that I was never entirely satisfied with the completed models. Nonetheless, I displayed them in my room. 

I also recall building plastic models of the iconic monsters like Dracula, the Wolfman, and the Mummy. The process for building them was the same as for the cars, but with the notable exception of the spark plug wires. I was similarly dissatisfied with the completed projects, but still felt compelled to display them. 

Perhaps if I had made a greater effort. I always seemed to lack the patience, particularly for the painting process. If you're interested, there is much more I could tell you.


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

So, this is what fresh air smells like! I crawled out of the sewer to post in this thread and, perhaps, give some of you something to think about.

First, one of the first gun threads I was ever involved with here went spiraling downward pretty quickly, with myself advocating for the use of lethal force in the face of an opposite lethal force.

Curiously, I received several PM's from regular members who admitted to sailing in non-US waters with firearms onboard, mostly in, and around, the Caribbean. They didn't feel the need to broadcast it, however.

So, it does occur at some rate, despite what many here profess.

Lastly, while I don't plan on leaving US waters any time soon, when I do, I will definitely have something onboard that will "reach out and touch someone". In order to remain legal (mostly), my "tool" of choice will be the attached pic. Enough to piss off the die hard anti's, and just non-lethal enough to get me laughed off of AR15.com.

Back to the sewer I go...

EDIT: The attached picture is, indeed, a USCG approved flare gun. And ATI makes a non-scary black rifle version as well.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Here's one, the pretty well known account of the attack on the yachts MAHDI and GANDALF off Yemen years ago..
> 
> Attacked by Pirates | Cruising World
> 
> ...


Thanks Jon. Amazing story, that I don't recall at the time. Maybe I was less interested in the topic, but I vividly recall the pirate escalation. I'm surprised no one has commented on it, nor posted a documented reference to the contrary.

Can you believe we lost the bet at sundown!


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Tenoch said:


> I would be curious to read any accounts of someone successfully cruising with a weapon aboard. It seems that these threads always are filled with those who caution against cruising with a gun, and those who swear they never leave home without one (but have never left 'Murica). I just wonder if anyone has say puddle jumped (recently) with one, checking it in and out of most countries, or hiding it from officials in other countries. Any real world experiences out there?


See the thing is, those who do, are not not going to be talking about it....yes, out here many do, but they are not openly carrying, and it seldom comes up in discussion...so, if somebody boards my boat in the wee hours, they might just find out.....More folks carry then you think, declared and undeclared, it might just happen to be part of being a bit farther from Murica...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Tenoch said:


> I would be curious to read any accounts of someone successfully cruising with a weapon aboard. It seems that these threads always are filled with those who caution against cruising with a gun, and those who swear they never leave home without one (but have never left 'Murica). I just wonder if anyone has say puddle jumped (recently) with one, checking it in and out of most countries, or hiding it from officials in other countries. Any real world experiences out there?


As others have said, it's quite likely there are a number of people out there cruising with firearms secreted aboard, who are perhaps not declaring them at every turn country they check into (especially those requiring that the gun(s) be turned into authorities for the duration of their stay)... Certainly no surprise that few would choose to broadcast that fact...

Observing these discussions on various sailing forums going on 20 years now, I figure there's roughly 4 groups most (American) cruisers fall into...

1) Those who choose to sail without being armed at all...

2) Those who start out cruising with weapons aboard, but over time reach the conclusion that having them aboard is simply not worth the hassle/inconvenience of dealing with them according to the laws of the various countries they visit... Fatty Goodlander is one prominent cruiser who falls into that category, he finally tossed his gun overboard during the course of his second navigation, if memory serves...

3) Those already mentioned, who carry guns, but don't necessarily declare them everywhere they visit... Just a hunch, but I'm guessing the percentage of folks doing this is not insignificant... However, given enough time out there, I would also suspect a number of people doing this eventually arrive at the same point Fatty did, and merge into Category 2...

4) Somewhat of a subset, perhaps, is the category of a vocal minority who broadcast vociferously (and incessantly ) that they would never go anywhere without firearms, and would not even consider cruising to a country like Canada, for instance... I would bet virtually all who fall into this category never venture outside of the USA, or beyond the Bahamas...

)


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

For the others here in Wa St, I agree with your comments re I594 from a personal standpoint. 

I know WM has quit selling the flare gun kits etc as I am referring to, as they have been told via state people, that a background check is required when selling them. Other stores may not see the law the same, choose to sell them any way. 

The USCG in the info I have seen, mention that some countries etc may find that a flare gun needs to be registered as a fire arm. Per the thread in another forum, many folks from Europe did mention some of those countries consider a flare gun to be are arm. Some only want it proclaimed, others do not care an iota. Canada as I have been told, faster can hopefully correct me, or some one else from BC, want this proclaimed as you come across in customs. 

At the end of this. I will stick to what I have typed. With the hopes I am proved wrong! At such at time I will retract what I have typed. A discussion on where and if flare guns are considered fire arms "SHOULD" be part of a discussion on here with folks not going off the deep end, as it will effect those of us that travel outside of countries etc where a flare gun, flare launching device etc is legal, this could put you in jail, fined etc. 

Marty


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

The big azz flare gun has never been an issue, getting the replacement shells, well, we could start another thread on that issue....


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

As a simple, direct answer to the original question, I would say that if you do not already have something that you would consider a "valid reason" all on your own, then no one else is going to be able to give you one. This is the sort of decision that each person has to come to all by themselves.

(Despite all the attempts by so many people to try to tell every one else what they should think, believe, and do concerning this subject.)


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Aboard a boat? I would love to see a reference.


Google Sir Peter Blake.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Observing these discussions on various sailing forums going on 20 years now, I figure there's roughly 4 groups most (American) cruisers fall into...
> 
> 1) Those who choose to sail without being armed at all...
> 
> ...


This will brand me as the geek that I am, but these kinds of discussions make me think of that scene in Star Wars when Luke Skywalker is being trained by Yoda. Skywalker is challenged to go into the Dark Side cave, and is advised to leave his weapons behind:

(paraphrase)
_Skywalker_: "What will I find in there?"
_Yoda_: "Only what you take with you."

Skywalker takes his weapons, uses violence to face his fears, and fails to grow or to learn. He fails the trial b/c he lets fear control him.

This is an over-simplification, but I think people answer the guns question based on how they (we) view the world. If the world is a dangerous place that's out to get you, then having weapons make perfect sense. If the world is benign or agnostic towards your existence, then weapons make sense some of the time. If the world is a jolly place where nothing ever goes wrong, then weapons never make sense.

I fall in to the middle category. Guns are useful tools for some specific circumstances. I think that most of the time there are better ways to mitigate these circumstances, especially given the legal challenges guns present.


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## jhastie (Oct 29, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> We're not allowed to discuss guns here, for any reason. You'll see.
> 
> I do think you ask a perfectly legitimate question. I'm not aware of anyone successfully defending themselves aboard with a firearm, but how would I? Where would such information be available, other than rumor?
> 
> ...


My uncle had a 43' Bertram cabin cruiser. On his way to the Bahamas, he encountered one of those overloaded Haitian immigrant boats with so many people he thought it was going to sink. They were out of water and drifting and he had a lever action 30-30 while my aunt passed them all of their spare drinking water. He was concerned they might overwhelm his boat.

I might point out that the Caribbean was a very dangerous place in the 1970's, and to some extent still is...


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Being an old codger and having been shot at on a couple occasions, the only reason to pack a gun is to kill the bad guy before he kills you. It ain't rocket science. Now, I was trained in the use of firearms by both the US Navy and Maryland State Police. If you are contemplating keeping a firearm on your boat, I would strongly urge you to get professional training in the use of that particular firearm. 

Fuzzy, ain't it time to kill this thread yet?

Gary


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## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

travlineasy said:


> Fuzzy, ain't it time to kill this thread yet?
> 
> Gary


Actually, so far, this has been the most polite, measured discussion of the issues involved that I've seen, devoid of personal attacks, suggestions that folks who disagree with a given opinion are of lesser intelligence, etc. I haven't participated, nor will I due to a very unpleasant past experience on a similar topic. I will say that there's been very LITTLE to disagree with on both sides of the issue in this thread. To sum it up, as I've read,

1. Obey and respect the laws of the lands you visit, or be prepared to and EXPECT to suffer the consequences of those governing authorities should you be found to be in violation of those laws.

2. If one chooses to carry a firearm, training, and LOTS of it, and CONSTANT training, is not just an option; it's a REQUIREMENT for anyone even considering having a firearm. The training comes BEFORE the decision, too. You can't make an informed decision to carry unless you've been trained to do so.

3. Without training, having a firearm onboard will almost always make a bad situation worse. It is possible, even with training, that this may occur.

4. No one is going to convince someone who doesn't want a firearm or who doesn't approve of firearms to get one. Why would anyone even try to change a person's mind on that topic? If someone does not want a firearm or believes that their safety would be compromised by owning one, why in the WORLD would any one want to try and convince them otherwise?

5. This one's a little stickier, but it's sort of the corollary to point #4. It's equally futile, in most cases, to convince someone who wishes to have a firearm aboard (and I'm going stipulate that the aforementioned training and legal issues are all covered) that they are wrong to do so.

Yes, it boils down to a personal position, and it's not one that anyone can tell you what the right choice for you is.. I think Mike O'Reilly stated that pretty beautifully in an earlier post.

The topic really boils down to whether or not someone is willing to have a firearm aboard when traveling to locations where that firearm would be illegal. All tough-guy posturing aside, the likelihood of having trouble with the authorities is probably MUCH greater than the likelihood of needing the firearm for personal safety. If it isn't, you're in the wrong spot of the globe in the first place.

We make our own choices, and live with the consequences. I have no wish to tell anyone how they should live, and I do not wish to be told how to live in return. I have no wish to harm ANYONE, and would most likely permit someone to injure me fairly severely rather than end their life, provided I was pretty certain I'd survive. I can't say as I'd feel that benevolent if my wife or child was being attacked, nor if any other innocent person was in imminent danger.

A valid reason to carry? To continue the Star Wars geekiness... "Determine validity in your heart for yourself you must...."

Here are some invalid reasons to carry..

1. You think it sounds like fun.
2. The movies make it look real easy.
3. Somebody told you to.
4. You think firearms are a substitute for awareness, planning, and caution when choosing destinations.
5. Everyone else is doing it.
6. Having a firearm would be easier than taking a bunch of other precautions on board, like sufficient lighting at night, keeping watches, stowing any visible valuables, etc.

This could be a very a long list, so I'll stop there.

As in most martial arts training, when training in firearms you learn what's of secondary importance first; you learn how to use the firearm. THEN, if you are truly responsible and caring, you learn what's of primary importance; you learn how to AVOID using it unless absolutely necessary, and you do not use it until that point.

A firearm is the last, last, LAST resort. If a situation deteriorates so far that a firearm is the only thing that will save an innocent life, then having that last resort would be welcome to me. On the other hand, the amount of time and expense one needs to invest in having that last resort, including training, purchasing, licensing, maintaining, documenting, registering, and researching various laws from country to country if one is traveling would seem to be inordinate when weighed against the extreme likelihood that one would never need the firearm in the first place. I agree with the rebuttal to the aforementioned comparisons to other safety gear in previous posts; fire extinguishers, flares, life jackets, tethers, etc., are all "just in case" items, too, but chances of them being necessary are MUCH greater than the need for a firearm, they'll rarely escalate a situation, and they won't get you in a heap o' trouble with foreign governments. Comparisons between safety gear and firearms are difficult to defend.

I just reread something I typed at the beginning of this post.. "I haven't participated nor will I".. oh well.. guess I participated. DARN this diarrhea of the fingers.

Anyway, I have been very glad to see this thread survive. It's been heartening to see folks discuss this with mutual respect, or at least politely. It was rough seeing folks I've grown to really respect, admire, and enjoy here on SailNet be so nasty to each other and me over disagreements on this subject in one of the first threads that, if I recall correctly, was the catalyst behind the creation of PWRG. Fortunately, we're all still here and still learning from each other. I truly appreciate this forum and the good learned folks here.

Best to all,

Barry


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

travlineasy said:


> Being an old codger and having been shot at on a couple occasions, the only reason to pack a gun is to kill the bad guy before he kills you. It ain't rocket science. Now, I was trained in the use of firearms by both the US Navy and Maryland State Police. If you are contemplating keeping a firearm on your boat, I would strongly urge you to get professional training in the use of that particular firearm.


Good post.

I'll offer that if you do 'carry' or keep one onboard - 
.... do consider a concealed carry permit - CCW (which allows reciprocity for many states, depending on the state where issued) as such allows a legal firearm to be fully *loaded* during 'transportation', etc. 
Without a valid CCW most states prohibit transporting (any conveyance - car, truck, bicycle, tricycle, riding lawn mower, horse, boat, roller skates, etc.) a *loaded* firearm - an 'illegal act', some places as a felony, etc.

Plus, do consider to obtain the relatively cheap 'CCW' insurance that provides additional financial support when successfully defending oneself during the 'aftermath' .... in an increasingly opportunistically-litigious society.

Additionally, having a valid state issued CCW permit will also more clearly delineate where in the US that 'any' firearm is not permitted - courthouses, K-12 school property, some state parks, etc. etc. etc. and other state-by-state specific prohibited venues. Without such prior state-specific knowledge, one can easily and innocently enter into illegality and criminal/felony charges -- even for out-of-state LEOs and retired LEOs, etc. 
Such info is not usually included in standard 'gun safety courses' ... so be aware.

For those residents of states that essentially prohibit citizens from using/applying rigorous self defense, consider non-resident CCW permits in those states you intend to travel; but, be aware that reciprocity to other states (other than the issuing state) will be vastly diminished with non-resident CCW permits when traveling in those 'other' states.

Instructions and advice, etc. can be obtained on the various "concealed carry" websites, etc. 
Start here, but double check all info as such statutes change often: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com 
and Concealed Carry Permit Reciprocity Maps - USA Carry -- where 'may issue' states dont functionally issue to 'anyone', including off-duty LEOs.

Lastly, if you intend to carry or transport, I would 'strongly' advise after gaining optimum expertise and efficiency and confidence, etc. - then taking an exhaustive 'tactical' firearms course, even if you are or were 'military'.

Hope this helps, stay safe.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

I was under the impression this thread was about "Cruising" with a firearm. This talk of "Concealed Carry laws" etc. must sound incredibly strange to sailnet's non-USA posters. 

I'm sure I am naive, but my hope is to cruise to destinations where not only is a firearm not needed, but is also non-existant in my immediate surroundings. Talk of everyone 'carrying' scares me much more than lonely tropical anchorages. 

There have been plenty of threads discussing alternative methods of self-protection: Lights, wasp spray, spear guns, flare guns, electric life-lines, alarms, etc. I personally am contemplating any and all alternatives to carrying a firearm on board.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Nos-
There can be valid reasons, the question being exactly what kind of artifact (big word meaning "something made by men") you plan to carry, who or what you and your obligations are, where you are going and what you plan to do with it.
If you have valid reasons to carry it they could be as simple as being reassured to have a shark rifle (courtesy of Hollywood and the 1950's ? ) so you can swim blissfully off the Australian Coast.
Or perhaps, you'd carry a shotgun, intending to add fresh duck to your larder. And "Them rails make tasty eatin'."
Maybe you plan to follow the steps of Spanish and British explorers, who left pigs on many islands to establish a food store. A heavy caliber rifle would help with those. Anything that weighs over 500# is unlikely to become a willing or easy dinner without some convincing.

The problem is that whatever your valid reason for wanting to carry whichever kind (including dueling pistols, in case of offense by traditional German nobility) is going to become terribly complicated and conflicted by the many rules in many jurisdictions in the world. 

While you are locked in the ice wintering over in Canada, the polar bears may be a valid concern. But as many government officials would tell you, the bears are entitled to eat too. You don't need a bear gun, you need to move to Mexico.

So, valid reasons? Valid is too often a subjective decision, made by folks who don't and won't share your points of view.

As to polls and actual uses? Here in the US, some prominent folks did some prominent research about that, oft debated. Apparently US gun owners "often" brandished or simply showed a gun, and someone that appeared to be attacking them ran away, with no shots being fired. The gun owners often did not report the incident, out of fear of being charged with brandishing a weapon or other issues. And our federal statistics (FBI/DOJ Uniform Crime Statistics) do not provide any means to record incidents where "showing but not using a gun caused an incident not to happen", so to speak. So, trying to gather facts and statements on these things? Also, not so simple.

Simple, only if you simply don't go there.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

One night at always struck me is that these threads typically wind up talking about pistols. While any tactical analysis of the best gun for carrying aboard a vessel would dictate a small caliber rifle. Since there is no need to worry about concealment, and ideal engagement range would be pretty far away an AR-15 or its progeny would be a much better choice. In addition rifles are much easier to clear in and out of gun restrictive countries than pistols. 

For what it's worth, we carried a Mini-14 for years in the Carribean. When the boat came back to the U.S. we found it rusting away in the bottom of a bilge compartment wher it had remained untouched for the best part of a decade.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Tenoch - Ive opened an area for gross misperception, sorry ....

The essence of my post and opinion is that with a CCW permit and reciprocity one will have less chance of running afoul of the various and over-lapping laws, even if one *is not* physically carrying the weapon on his/her person but is simply 'transporting' (and that transportation may be the transportation of disassembled parts and pieces).

To summarize the apparent missing intent of my post, without a CCW permit, it is generally illegal to 'transport' any firearm (even disassembled) with its ammunition in any close/convenient proximity / unlocked or unsecured .... the CCW permit allows this.

Specifically IMO, a CCW permit greatly lessens the possibility and potentials of innocently being afoul of the various laws simply due to the extended legal privileges that come with the CCW. 
When boarded/stopped, etc. by state, local or USCG LEOs, etc., the immediate presentation of the CCW, along with other ID, changes entirely what would/could be an escalated situation if one did not have a CCW permit and has a firearm (in ANY state of readiness) onboard.

Simple speak - Cops readily appreciate that from the very onset of any encounter with the possibility that a 'gun' is in close proximity ... the immediate presentation of the CCW permit almost instantly and automatically shows a vivid indicator of your prudent 'compliance' with gun statutes, etc. .... and *their* safety. 
But, this situation exists only in those states where CCW permits are 'actually' issued, etc., not so in those few states that prohibit rigorous self-defense & where CCW is 99.999% never issued.

All this is just my opinion and experience; depends on which state is your 'home' CCW state and your reciprocity privileges in other states .... your milage may vary. 
With CCW, I can legally have onboard a loaded and 'ready to go' Very Pistol, .... with the exception of where my CCW is not recognized (and I usually no longer travel to those places, if at all possible).

I hope this clears up the misperceptions ... based on my experiences as an avid 'recreational shooter'.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

*Crow for Lunch then ?*

VallelyJ is upset with me. To be honest he has good reason. Not that his post was appropriate, it wasn't, nor does it excuse his wee rant at my expense, but I did infer that he was part of the pro gun chorus line and that was unfair, indeed inaccurate. It came about because I misread his post and twisted the ultimate meaning through 180 degrees. For that I humbly apologise.


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## VallelyJ (Nov 21, 2008)

> VallelyJ is upset with me. To be honest he has good reason. Not that his post was appropriate, it wasn't, nor does it excuse his wee rant at my expense, but I did infer that he was part of the pro gun chorus line and that was unfair, indeed inaccurate. It came about because I misread his post and twisted the ultimate meaning through 180 degrees. For that I humbly apologise.


Andrew, thank you for your apology. I frankly hadn't expected it.
To be clear, I don't contest your right to judge the appropriateness of my or others' posts, and I can tolerate being confused with gun freaks. I've been on both sides of the issue over time.
I was angry at your other, more personal comments, which I'm sure were simply made in a moment of understandable frustration. I apologize for responding in kind.
John V.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"pro gun chorus line "
I must thank you for drawing [sic] the best cartoon of the day.

I'm seeing that magnificent stage in Radio City Music Hall, lined with fifty, count 'em fifty, neatly dressed sunburnt hardened cowboys all wearing big ivory handled Colts with bands of 30-30 hanging around their chests, kicking WAY up high in perfect uniform symmetry as they wheel around.

I think the great pipe organ is playing Copeland's Hoedown? It is!

Ah yes, the pro gun chorus line. 
How DO they get them all such a uniform height?!

And check out them snakeskin boots and the silverwork on those spurs!

ROFL, thank you thank you!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Anywho, we digress. 

The topic was "World Cruising and Guns" I believe. Two sunsets have now passed and it still lives. Wow.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

danvon said:


> Presumably you mean I-594, the initiative to close the "gun show" loophole. It deals with background checks on sale/transfer of guns...


What many refer to as the "gun show loophole" actually is not specific to gun shows. ALL dealers who sell guns to the public are required to have a Federal Firearms License and to perform a background check wherever they sell including at gun shows. You buy a gun from an FFL dealer at a gun show and your background will be checked just like it is in their stores.

Now, under Federal law, private individuals are allowed to sell guns to other private individuals without performing the background check. Some of those sales take place at gun shows. Others take place in other ways, word of mouth, etc. Point is that the loophole applies to all these private sales not just private sales at gun shows.

It is therefore, more accurately, a private gun sale loophole.

FWIW, I am in no way offering an opinion here on whether or not background checks should or should not be expanded to include these private sales.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Here is a classic example of where these threads self destruct. In PRWG, there would be nothing wrong with SailPower's post but it has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with Sailing.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> Google Sir Peter Blake.


Is it clear that circumstance was escalated and no one was otherwise getting hurt? Assuming it was, the score is 1 to 1, so far. No clear documented answer one way or the other, as was the premise I have not seen sufficient evidence to believe.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

tdw said:


> Here is a classic example of where these threads self destruct. In PRWG, there would be nothing wrong with SailPower's post but it has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with Sailing.


I totally agree, SailPower. Cut it out, or the cruising discussion is toast.


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

Stumble said:


> For what it's worth, we carried a Mini-14 for years in the Carribean. When the boat came back to the U.S. we found it rusting away in the bottom of a bilge compartment wher it had remained untouched for the best part of a decade.


Was it too far gone?


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

tdw said:


> Two sunsets have now passed and it still lives. Wow.


.... and the only disruptive political/ideological modulation is by 'a moderator', including a back-handed apology. 
Proves that Fire boats do catch on fire and sink, too.

Good discussion. 
(Figuratively speaking) now someone please euthanize the 'moderator'. :-|


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

tdw said:


> Here is a classic example of where these threads self destruct. In PRWG, there would be nothing wrong with SailPower's post but it has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with Sailing.


Seriously??

I said nothing that wasn't factual or even in dispute and I said it politely in response to the previous comment as information only.

I also made it clear that I wasn't posting in order to take sides.

Are you really offering my comment as similar to what takes place in PRWG? Really!?

I admit that I don't read that particular forum but I have seen similar on other sites and, well, you have got to be kidding.

Your definition of sailing related is pretty elastic based on comments on other topics in other threads.

Whatever. No worries, I have nothing further to add to this topic except to say that, as others have stated, I think it is a good idea to obey the laws of any host country.


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

tdw said:


> Here is a classic example of where these threads self destruct. In PRWG, there would be nothing wrong with SailPower's post but it has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with Sailing.


I found the post relevant to me in the U.S. Did it specifically address sailing? Maybe not. But, it did expose me to relevant laws that may, or may not, be relevant to sailing in U.S. waters.

Why are you so ripe to kill a thread that you personally, and politically, disagree with, but has not crossed the clearly delineated line which would send this thread to the basement ?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Oh FFs ..... I have sat through this entire thread trying to keep it on track, trying to avoid it being hurled into the pit. 

I don't like guns. That has been made very clear but "so ripe to kill a thread that you (I) personally, and politically, disagree with" ?? I don't think so. Yes I have deleted a few posts and yes I have issued warnings when I felt it was heading off track but jaysus christ, if I had really wanted to can the effing thing don't you think that I would have already done so ? 

That said ... black and white ...... any post that does not have something to do with sailing will be deleted. The thread is not NOT about the legalities of buying guns in the US , it is about the ins and outs of carrying guns when cruising. 

You want to discuss the other ? Open yourself a new thread in PRWG.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Fuzzy, 

I, for one, appreciate your unpaid moderation. When I am next in Australia you will drink for free when we get together.

MedSailor


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Nostrodamus said:


> I will say from the beginning I am a Brit although I have spent a long time using firearms.
> This is not a pro or anti gun question but a valid question.
> When cruising around the world 90% of countries and places you may visit along the way may be perfectly safe and may also require you to hand your firearm in.
> Are there any circumstances where cruisers carrying or using a firearm has made a real difference in protecting them.
> On the other hand are they more trouble than they are worth and can they lead to your demise?


The only way to answer this is with data. Is there any on cruisers and the use of firearms in self defense? I have no idea if there is, but would be interested if there were.

From a real world perspective, many (most?) countries won't allow you to have firearms, checked in or not (at least according to what many have said over the years here anyway), so it's maybe a moot discussion for the most part.

Stats and data are only a broad brush picture anyway (if even available), my thoughts are that if you are in waters where you can legally posses a firearm and wish to do so, then you should. If you don't want to, you shouldn't. Stats, data and discussion doesn't matter when that "one time" it may have saved your life is lost because you didn't have it (my opinion on a valid reason to carry while cruising).

My 2c anyway, and kudos to TDW for changing his mind and giving a gun thread in general a fair go. I'm impressed Andrew.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

ericb760 said:


> Was it too far gone?


It took a few hours with a polishing wheel and polishing compound but I finally got all the rust off. Luckily the gun is stainless with a chromed chamber and inner barrel so I didn't have too much to do.


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## AKscooter (Jan 18, 2009)

Carried them many times to "pop" a big 'but (halibut) in the head. In Alaska the fish can get to large to safely bring aboard without a hole in their head. Actually most boaters/fisherman I know carry guns. Halibuts, and bears oh my....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Until about a decade ago, Alaska state law required all small aircraft to have a survival kit aboard, which mandated a firearm. The theory being, should you go down in the AK wilderness, your ability to take care of yourself for a short period would lessen the likelihood of rescue teams taking too high a risk coming for you. 

Ultimately, the firearm requirement was removed, because it was causing trouble with aircraft that had to transit Canadian airspace. However, I never heard how often one was ever used in a survival scenario. I suspect it was no more frequent than a cruiser. I also suspect most bush pilots still have one along, despite their infrequent usefulness. I would.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

For self defense on board my problem is finding a likely scenario where having an illegal gun in a foreign country could be used with a good outcome.

Lets say you are cruising off the coast of Guatemala and a fast boat comes near you.

It is unlikely they will announce their intention. You don't know if they are police. Often the police use unmarked boats. Maybe fishermen that want to sell something. Maybe someone with a medical problem looking for help. Or maybe like one cruiser found out the natives believed that bad spirits had a hard time with sharp turns so they would head towards a sailboat at high speed then turn off at the last minutes to loose the spirits.

In any event if you have a rifle and can shoot well enough and show it when you have space to maneuver just to scare them off you may just buy yourself a visit from the local police.

If you wait until the boat was along side you now have multiple targets and possible return fire and still may not really know the intentions of the visitors.

You can run other scenario's mentally and in most cases I can think of having this particular tool aboard increases the chance of making a tragic mistake.

The solution would be for there to be an international recognized special flair. If you fired that flair and a boat approached anyway you would be in your rights to shoot said boat out of the water. This is obviously not going to happen and if it did would cause other issues.

If you don't travel in known bad areas the opportunity to misuse a firearm is probably way higher than to use it to good effect.

Unless of course you can come up with a scenario that is both likely enough to overshadow the legal and moral dangers and is likely to be successful.


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## AKscooter (Jan 18, 2009)

Not to belabor a point but anybody who is an Alaskan is going to have a gun when they fly or boat........everytime. Having my certificates in most modes of transportation and living there for almost 30 gives me pretty good truck for my statement. If I go to US via Canada by private plane...long guns are ok however pistols and such need to be shipped from FFL to FFL. And yes, a large bore pistol will stop a brownie.....


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## Kyhillbilly (Jun 14, 2011)

One thing I have read and read on sailing forums is to be prepared. The more experience, the better your equipment, the better chance you have of surviving what ever comes your way. The criminals that seeks to harm others for their own personal gain do not care about the law. Odds of a police officer being close by to help you out are slim. Bottom line be prepared for whatever comes your way. Just my opinion.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

davidpm said:


> For self defense on board my problem is finding a likely scenario where having an illegal gun in a foreign country could be used with a good outcome.
> 
> Lets say you are cruising off the coast of Guatemala and a fast boat comes near you.
> 
> ...


I don't mean to offend, but this is a pretty good example of why one shouldn't try to figure self defense out for themselves. David is right, the suggestion that you start firing at an approaching vessel is not good self defense.

I won't go into any great length here, but you're trying to sort out those that have no intention of doing harm, from those that do. You make your presence known and then hunker down. If they take your stuff and leave, you made it. If they want you, which would be rare, but happens, you now better be able to fight back. Not before. And you just do it, you never threaten.


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## rgp (Jul 20, 2005)




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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

AKscooter said:


> Not to belabor a point but anybody who is an Alaskan is going to have a gun when they fly or boat........everytime. Having my certificates in most modes of transportation and living there for almost 30 gives me pretty good truck for my statement. If I go to US via Canada by private plane...long guns are ok however pistols and such need to be shipped from FFL to FFL. And yes, a large bore pistol will stop a brownie.....


We have been cruising in SE Alaska for the past three years.

Early in the thread I posted a clip from a video we shot while sitting in the cockpit of our boat at Port Armstrong on the East side of Baranof Island. See the bears. Hear the gun shots.

Depending on the time of year, you do not go ashore without bear protection except in the larger towns and cities. Alaskan Coastal Brown Bears are bigger than Grizzlies, the top of the food chain and they know it. They walk down the boardwalks of small towns like Port Alexander or Kake when ever they feel like it. In Port Armstrong, everyone we saw was carrying a long gun. Every local boat we have been aboard had either a .45-70 rifle or a 12 ga shotgun for bear protection. Some places there are wolves (Here on Mitcof island for example) which, when in close proximity to humans, can be dangerous.

People? No one worries too much about other people bothering them. Everyone has a big bore gun. They leave each other alone.

That is Alaska. In the rest of the world wildlife is not much of a problem but having a gun aboard is a major PITA, or so I have heard.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Kyhillbilly said:


> One thing I have read and read on sailing forums is to be prepared. The more experience, the better your equipment, the better chance you have of surviving what ever comes your way. The criminals that seeks to harm others for their own personal gain do not care about the law. Odds of a police officer being close by to help you out are slim. Bottom line be prepared for whatever comes your way. Just my opinion.


Good advice, certainly...

On the other hand, however, I've always thought this epigram (not sure who it was originally attributed to) best defines the essence of Good Seamanship:

_*The mark of Superior Seamanship is the practice of using superior judgment to avoid the necessity of having to apply superior skills...*_


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

JonEisberg, can you elaborate on the stories you heard where people successfully defended themselves in the Caribbean with a firearm? In my limited experience, I haven’t heard of anything like that here on the west coast of Mexico. One incident that come to mind was when several perpetrators went into the cabin while the boat was anchored and I believed stabbed the skipper. Thinking about this (and having recently watched a program on ABC about a grizzly attack). I was wondering if bear spray might be an alternative to a firearm in the close confines of a cabin?


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

A valid reason in one word: Kraken.
And now for the real question:
What do I need to carry to protect myself from Kraken?
Somehow I don't think even my .375 H&H with a 300 grain soft point bullet will be enough.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

GeorgeB said:


> JonEisberg, can you elaborate on the stories you heard where people successfully defended themselves in the Caribbean with a firearm? In my limited experience, I haven't heard of anything like that here on the west coast of Mexico. One incident that come to mind was when several perpetrators went into the cabin while the boat was anchored and I believed stabbed the skipper. Thinking about this (and having recently watched a program on ABC about a grizzly attack). I was wondering if bear spray might be an alternative to a firearm in the close confines of a cabin?


I think you hit the nail on the head there George. If the stabbing incident happened in Mexico, can you imagine if the skipper pulled out a gun and shot the attacker before he got stabbed? Wait, what? You shot a Mexican national with a gun that is illegal to have in Mexico because you "thought" you were about to get stabbed? Bear spray may be a good alternative, otherwise its probably best to just take the stabbing, go to the hospital, and avoid 20 years in a Mexican jail.


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## gilgsn (Mar 18, 2015)

Hello,

Does anyone have a sword onboard?

Gil.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

gilgsn, I think you want a cutlass - More nautical and a shorter blade so you can swing it in confined spaces. A harpoon might be handy if one desires a longer range weapon.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Milspec gas mask and nerve gas. I will hunker in my cabin and dare the pricks to come get me.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

I'm impressed. I keep waiting for this to go off the rails. I'm in the "can't come up with a valid reason for a firearm" camp, but I'm also the sort that doesn't carry much that anyone would want to steal. And I never leave Maine, so I'm pretty safe here.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Isn't the main reason for having gun on the boat because if you get drunk and go to the beach and shoot up a bunch coconuts (or whatever else is equal wherever you are), it's a lot of fun?


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Tenoch said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head there George. If the stabbing incident happened in Mexico, can you imagine if the skipper pulled out a gun and shot the attacker before he got stabbed? Wait, what? You shot a Mexican national with a gun that is illegal to have in Mexico because you "thought" you were about to get stabbed? Bear spray may be a good alternative, otherwise its probably best to just take the stabbing, go to the hospital, and avoid 20 years in a Mexican jail.


So you've done all the above and your going to trot off to the Federales and report the incident like a good little merican? Hell no, your getting out of dodge and mums the word.


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## gilgsn (Mar 18, 2015)

> gilgsn, I think you want a cutlass


Yes  Cold Steel makes a pretty good one...
Better than nothing and probably legal in most places.

Gil.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

GeorgeB said:


> JonEisberg, can you elaborate on the stories you heard where people successfully defended themselves in the Caribbean with a firearm? In my limited experience, I haven't heard of anything like that here on the west coast of Mexico.


Actually, none of the incidents spoken of involved any sort of 'firefight', and only one involved the actual firing of a gun... And that one was simply a warning shot fired in the air to alert a boat that had been stalking the guy in a suspicious and threatening manner that he was armed, and it had the desired effect as they quickly departed the scene...

The other two involved being boarded late at night, one by a pair of swimmers, their chore made easier courtesy of a sugar scoop transom  In each instance, those coming aboard were obviously hoping to do so undetected, and as soon as they were aware that someone was awake and armed, they also departed in a hurry... In all cases, it was not determined whether the 'bad guys' were armed with guns (the swimmers obviously weren't), but it was apparent from what I heard in each instance, that the ability to brandish or display a firearm lent each cruiser a degree of confidence to deal with the perceived threat in a very aggressive manner. Certainly could have been possible, however, that in either of the 2 actual boardings, they might have been scared off as soon as they realized they had lost any element of surprise, and that the person aboard had a gun...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Tenoch said:


> I would be curious to read any accounts of someone successfully cruising with a weapon aboard. It seems that these threads always are filled with those who caution against cruising with a gun, and those who swear they never leave home without one (but have never left 'Murica). I just wonder if anyone has say puddle jumped (recently) with one, checking it in and out of most countries, or hiding it from officials in other countries. Any real world experiences out there?


There's a guy who just started a thread over on Cruiser's Forum, who is planning a circumnavigation with firearms aboard... He's just related his experience with checking into the Bahamas, and is promising to post his experience with each successive country they check into, as their cruise progresses... Yeah, well, we'll see how long that lasts... 

2015 bahamas gun check-in update - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Might want to take his info with a grain of salt, however... He claims to have been welcomed with open arms by Bahamian customs with an arsenal comprised of "a shotgun, a semi automatic magazine fed rifle, and a handgun." However, there is no mention of the 'Special Permit' one is apparently required to obtain to import or possess a handgun in the Bahamas, or the license required for a semi-automatic rifle... So, perhaps it's anyone's guess how informative, or reality-based, his information will prove to be...

If nothing else, however, the thread promises to have some entertainment value... Only a dozen posts into it, some guy with the handle "SniperSailor" posted the following 



> What scares me is that if they board at night then you are trapped in the boat with no way out. For those who are aware, fiberglass does not stop high powered rifle bullets. *I thought a pair of Claymores strapped to the mast, one pointed fore, one aft, and able to be triggered from with in, would pretty well clear the deck and give you a chance to come out firing.* It may trash the deck but you can replace that. You could have them covered nicely in fiberglass to avoid suspicion.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Jon, I love the way politicians write regulations, especially this one:

4. (1) Subject to the provisions of sections 6, 43 and 44 of this Act, no person
shall introduce into The Bahamas or possess any revolver unless he shall have obtained a special licence in the prescribed form from the Licensing Authority authorising him to introduce or possess the same.

The above means that my .357 Magnum derringer would be perfectly legal there - it's not a revolver. 

Gary


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

JonEisberg;
If nothing else said:


> I sent the wife over to see if they wanted a glass of wine on our boat tonight.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Wrt the original question, nccouple...in a separate post...discusses the difficulty he is having getting the nut-stains out of his foresail...caused by squirrels storing nuts in the folds of the sail over winter. A good use for a firearm would be eliminating the nut-carriers who caused those stains.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

fryewe said:


> Wrt the original question, nccouple...in a separate post...discusses the difficulty he is having getting the nut-stains out of his foresail...caused by squirrels storing nuts in the folds of the sail over winter. A good use for a firearm would be eliminating the nut-carriers who caused those stains.


Perhaps... But on the other hand, he simply could have avoided the issue entirely by removing his sail for the winter, and storing it properly...

Leaving a furling headsail on for the duration of a North Carolina winter, well... that's sort of the sail care & maintenance equivalent of cruising the Gulf of Aden, the chances of a bad outcome are pretty high, and not all that hard to imagine...


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

I look at firearms onboard as something akin to having a parachute: 
If you dont have a parachute but absolutely do NEED a parachute, you will not need the damn parachute a second time if you dont have one the first time its absolutely needed.

Something is wrong with that "Bahamas gun check-in update" (link). The last time I entered the Bahamas (2014) with a firearm, I was advised that they permit only 100 rounds of ammunition per firearm .... but NO ONE ever counted the ammunition.


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## Johnniegee (Oct 13, 2014)

Nearly everyone respects a bee because they have a stinger shouldn't you.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

As the original poster I have read through every reply and on the whole I thank you for giving some reasoned and sensible replies which does not often happen in a discussion about firearms.
Although I used them for many years I am a Brit and I will admit a bias against them.
I have tried to be objective in thinking about the various comments but ... I still have not found a valid reason for carrying a firearm whilst cruising. I would rather stay away from danger areas than carry one.
Thank you for all your contributions.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Gary- 
Bear in mind that when revolvers were invented, in the context of the typical military handgun still being a musket, flintlock, etc? The revolver with an astounding five or six sots without reloading, and speed loading after that, _was an assault weapon._
So, little wonder that a traditional nation might still have a law banning "assault weapons" while allowing the older, safer, slower types like yours.
I suppose the relevance of this to sailing, is that in both cases the situation revolves (no pun intended) around the massive inertia required, and usually not to be found, with bureaucrats and regulations having been written, obsoleted, and still allowed to ferment on the books.

As to first hand data, statistics, or similar about or from cruisers who have actually defended themselves with a gun? Regardless of whether that is using one, showing one, brandishing one, legally or illegally, the bottom line is that even totally law-abiding gun owners are quite reluctant to raise these matters.

You say "Officer, there were bad men but I pointed my gun at them and they ran away." and the first thing the officer has to do is ask you if it is legal, produce your paperwork, possibly confiscate the gun as evidence until he can ascertain it wasn't actually fired...oh, and make sure that no one charges you with "brandishing" while debating your story....

No, the advice from lawyers and LEOs alike is to just move on. Don't show or mention the gun, and if you had to use it? Dispose of the body quickly and quietly, along with any other evidence.

Sorry, but as a practical matter even if someone is 100% law abiding, they probably don't want it known that they HAVE a gun, much less that they've used it. Not always--just very often. Enough to make the statistics trash. (And there is no uniform reporting, or record keeping, of "I used a gun without shooting someone."

Kinda like when sailors don't bother logging that they _didn't _run into a protected species, or didn't hit a submarine. And if they did, well, who's really going to brag about it?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Frankly I don't think the previous post is even vaguely on topic and I am thinking that the thread has run its course. 

Nostro .... do you agree ? Would you like it wound up ?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

travlineasy said:


> Jon, I love the way politicians write regulations, especially this one:
> 
> 4. (1) Subject to the provisions of sections 6, 43 and 44 of this Act, no person
> shall introduce into The Bahamas or possess any revolver unless he shall have obtained a special licence in the prescribed form from the Licensing Authority authorising him to introduce or possess the same.
> ...


Not so fast, Gary 

If you poke around a bit in those Bahamian cites, you'll also see references to "pistols" as being restricted, as well... It's quite apparent their somewhat archaic language refers to all manner of handguns...


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

tdw said:


> Frankly I don't think the previous post is even vaguely on topic and I am thinking that the thread has run its course.
> 
> Nostro .... do you agree ? Would you like it wound up ?


I think it is always good to listen to the advice of others as long as you are willing to make your own decisions.

I am sure this thread will run its course soon but it has for once been refreshing to see others considering the various points seriously. (well most of the time).


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

OK, We'll let it continue to run. I'm OK with that *BUT* he said in bold red letters if we get any advance of HellorSailor's post then it will be in a pretty precarious situation.

I am not deleting HS's post. Maybe I should but lets leave it up as an example of how a thread on this subject can run amok.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Nostrodamus said:


> .....the country I would be most worried about going to is America with talk of claymores on the mast and disposing of bodies and moving on.


Troll, if there ever was one. If that's the doom you want for your thread, you have it coming. Why TDW didn't call you on this, surprises me. Sort of.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

Nostrodamus said:


> At the moment the country I would be most worried about going to is America with talk of claymores on the mast and disposing of bodies and moving on.


It's fascinating to me to look at us crazy yanks from the viewpoint of the rest of the world. Right or wrong, we are quite a bunch.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Troll, if there ever was one. If that's the doom you want for your thread, you have it coming. Why TDW didn't call you on this, surprises me. Sort of.


hmmm ... valid point ? Maybe you are correct Minne. Again it is why for so long we have the policy of simply dumping anything the even had the slightest whiff of guns about it into the sewer. I

Also .... my comments re HelloSailors posts were not direct criticism, merely an attempt at warning of upcoming pbstacles.


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## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

Nostrodamus said:


> At the moment the country I would be most worried about going to is America with talk of claymores on the mast and disposing of bodies and moving on.


In fairness to the United States, Nostro, I'm pretty sure one could find a person in pretty much any country who makes statements that many of their countrymen find disturbing. We don't have a monopoly on disagreement and outrageous statements.



Tenoch said:


> It's fascinating to me to look at us crazy yanks from the viewpoint of the rest of the world. Right or wrong, we are quite a bunch.


Who makes up the body of people you refer to, Tenoch, as "us crazy yanks?" The US is as divided a country now as I've ever seen it. We can't be right or wrong, at least as a populace, because we don't even agree. Our government is dysfunctional, our elected representatives aren't representing us; it's a mess. On the other hand, as I said above, one could say the same thing about many, many other countries, too. One of the nice things about the US is that, if you don't like it, you can leave. I'm not suggesting you should, nor am I stating that I haven't thought about leaving myself; I have. However, it's a nice freedom to have that some others don't.

Suggestions of disposing bodies and claymore mines on the mast are, OF COURSE, quite atypical of citizens of any civilized country that I've ever experienced. I'd hardly discount a country because someone typed that on a forum on the internet. Heck... if you did that, one could never take a step out in public anywhere on earth.

In any case, I'm with Andrew on this one regarding closing the thread; we're not covering new ground on the topic. The last few posts have nothing to do with sailing, and my post here doesn't either. I just couldn't let those two statements go unanswered. The US ain't perfect, but the idea is good; a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Wish it were so. I don't know of any perfect countries, but I've enjoyed the other three with which I am familiar very much and I respect them, too. I've lived in the US for 54 years, and have yet to experience a Claymore or a hidden body. Generally, life is pretty good, and we (meaning, the people I know) try to do the best we can to do what's right. Anyone who tells you they have all the answers simply hasn't done enough research to know what the questions are. The world is a VERY complicated place.

Best wishes to my SailNet friends, regardless of your geographical location, political viewpoints, and stance on the firearms issues. We are not all alike. That's good.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

OK, for now it's closed. Will reconsider tomorrow.


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