# Never Buy a New Hanse



## Frankschicketanz (Apr 3, 2012)

Save yourself any aggravation by not buying a new Hanse. We bought a Hanse 400 last year and had it delivered from Germany to Portugal. After being in the marina for 11 months, we had it taken out of the water to have the bottom cleaned before our cruise into the Mediterranean. A 12-inch crack was discovered on the rudder--a clear case of warranty, right? Not from Hanse's point of view. They refused to pay for the 1000-euro repair, along with approximately another 1000 euroes' worth of repairs on the voyage which should have been covered by the warranty. This is a company that values the bottom line over customer satisfaction, an attitude that permeates the company all the way to the CEO, whom I emailed.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

You had use of the boat for almost a year and then upon discovering the boat was damaged, want the manufacturer to pay for the repair?

I don't see where Hanse has any responsibility at all.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I wonder what Hanse's take is. I suspect they said it's not covered because you hit something. I also suspect you did hit something. 

"A 12-inch crack was discovered on the rudder--a clear case of warranty, right?" No, not clear at all.

Anyway this thread is worthless with only one point of view.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I gotta agree with MarkSF. If I were Hanse I would ask you to provide some proof that the damage was not caused by impact, mis-use, or abuse. Otherwise, go fish.

Also posting a gripe about a manufacturer, with only one other post in SailNet (your post count is 2), causes me to be on guard.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Ditto the above. 

Next time you run aground check for cracks and never believe a delivery skipper when he says he didn't hit anything.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Hire a surveyor to determine cause of crack. You present no credible evidence here to blame Hanse. Without any history here your viewpoint is rather weak.


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

I for one, would like to know how the manufacturer determined it wasn't a warranty issue, did you send them pictures or did they send a representative out..??

I guess I'm not with the consensus and feel like if you spend a small fortune (just assuming a new 40' is a small fortune) they should have maybe paid for half just to insure some good press if nothing else....


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

It is o course that with the one-side story, it is better to get some "evidence". OP is frustrated and disappointed, want to do some flaming. This is not a good place for such, in particular without photos.
Alas, OP cannot publish such either - has too few contributions. More frustration. 

But before we go to far in this, we should remember that Hanse has had rudder issues before. As many others have had. 

If there is a typical crack in the rudder, and no other signs of impact, then - photo and put on some of the many servers available. Publish the link in this thread. First then is it possible to assess. 

Hanse must have had some reason for not paying. What? 
Any reasoning?

If Hanse refuses, then it is an insuranse issue - sudden impact, decided by Hanse. 

Most Hanses are nice boats. Wouldn't hesitate myself. Do not loose any sleep over an issue like this. 

/J


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

What would bother me is the manufacturer's quick dismissal of the claim.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

bobperry said:


> What would bother me is the manufacturer's quick dismissal of the claim.


Assuming that was the case. We only have one unhappy boat owner's version of the story.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I never cease to be amazed at how these kinds of discussions tend to run. The last time I looked, Hanse had a pretty extensive warranty. When someone says that a rudder is split, I would need more information before drawing any conclusions. 

After all, rudders split for all kinds of reasons, but when the split on a less than 1 year old boat, in the absense of clear evidence of a collision with an object then a manufacturing defect would certainly be one very strong possibility. If that is the case then I certainly see the OP's point.

But from the initial post, it seems to me there is inadequate information for any of us to reach a firm conclusion. Pictures or a descrition of the investigation method would go a long way towards making or refuting the case that the OP seems to be presenting. 

Jeff


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Frankschicketanz said:


> Save yourself any aggravation by not buying a new Hanse. We bought a Hanse 400 last year and had it delivered from Germany to Portugal. After being in the marina for 11 months, we had it taken out of the water to have the bottom cleaned before our cruise into the Mediterranean. A 12-inch crack was discovered on the rudder--a clear case of warranty, right? Not from Hanse's point of view. They refused to pay for the 1000-euro repair, along with approximately another 1000 euroes' worth of repairs on the voyage which should have been covered by the warranty. This is a company that values the bottom line over customer satisfaction, an attitude that permeates the company all the way to the CEO, whom I emailed.


Some clarifications are needed here:

The boat was delivered by truck by Hanse himself through a dealer or you paid someone to sail the boat to Portugal?

The boat was in the marina 11 months without sailing?

Normally it is the dealer that takes charge of that type of claims (even if the factory is involved). Where do you have bought the boat and what was the attitude of the dealer towards that?

Finally did you buy the boat at discount price? The Hanse 400 is not in production and it has been substituted by the 415 two years ago.

Regards

Paulo


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## Frankschicketanz (Apr 3, 2012)

We did send pictures of the cracked rudder to Hanse and would do it here too, but the server won't let us, or we don't know how.
We did not crack the rudder because we didn't even sail it before the damage was detected. It just sat in the marina for 11 months.
The problem with the delivery was that it was done by the German dealer Südost Yachting, which has since gone out of business. That of course complicates matters. The fact is that SOY represented Hanse and since I cannot collect from a bankrupt company, Hanse should pay, at least they should if customer satisfaction mattered to them. 
I am not flaming, just warning potential buyers. I wish someone had warned me. There have been so many complaints about Hanse in the Iberian peninsula, that boat yards will not bill them, even in obvious warranty matters and their representative in Portimao has quit on them. 
I am not saying their boats are inherently bad, just that they need an administrative shake-up and puts people in charge who treat customers as well after the sale as they do before it. Perhaps it is indicative of their organization that their customer sales representative is just called "after sales" representative.
I appreciate the feedback.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Pretty disingenuous to come on the forum, bad-mouth Hanse up and down and then admit that the damage could have been caused by a delivery skipper.


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

Who doesn't sail their brand new boat for 11 months and then pulls it out of the water to get the bottom cleaned...? Sorry, sounds fishy.


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

Fstbttms said:


> Pretty disingenuous to come on the forum, bad-mouth Hanse up and down and then admit that the damage could have been caused by a delivery skipper.


There are some weak points in the OP story. We need to see pics. And so on.

BUT it is nowhere stated that any delivery skipper has been involved. Easiest and fastest way to transport Hanse or SüdOst Whatever (SüdOst Germany combined with sailing? OK, I admit, this is also an assumption) is by truck.

Paulo asked some very good questions. There is something in that area that doesn't smell well. It is clear warranty has gone, boat is simply too old. Boat was ~1 year old (at least) at the date of delivery.

Hanse cannot be blamed for SüdOst Yachting actions.

Dear OP, may I propose you either present your case in full, or forget about it all? Actually, I would recommend the latter, as:
1) Sailnet is not very powerful against boat manufacturers. 
2) Presenting your case in full will be time & energy consuming for you. Not fun at all.
3) badmouthing / flaming /xx Hanse also backlash at yourself, and also the value of your boat.
4) €1000 is not insignificant money, but still just a part of the annual boat budget for a rather new 40 ft. If finally you have to pay for it yourself, OK, do so and go on with your sailing life. Your boat is a nice boat. enjoy it instead of focus on one issue.

/J


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Jaramaz said:


> BUT it is nowhere stated that any delivery skipper has been involved. Easiest and fastest way to transport Hanse or SüdOst Whatever (SüdOst Germany combined with sailing? OK, I admit, this is also an assumption) is by truck.


You are correct. I assumed that the boat was delivered by sea, not land. If I was wrong in this assumption, I apologize to the OP.


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## turban10 (Jan 4, 2010)

Frankschicketanz, 

Did Hanse give you any reason for declining your warranty claim? Please give us some additional information on this rudder issue. 
Since there are two sides to any story, it is difficult for people to get up in arms against the manufacturer without the facts.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Have you posted your story and problems on the Hanse forum?

400 - myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum - Page 1

Lot's of owners there. It would be interesting to new what is their view on this.


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## Frankschicketanz (Apr 3, 2012)

The ceo of Hanse, Dr. Gerhardt wrote me and told me that my boat left the yard "tadellos", meaning flawless and anything that happened after it left the yard does not concern him. When I made him aware that Toyota, General Motors and Ford among others had to have cars recalled because some problems first become apparent after delivery and use, he said to leave him alone - discussion over. I just wonder how a company like Hanse in such a competitive market can treat its customers with such distain and distrust. If the ceo of a company claims its product is flawless it seems to make a mockery of the concept of a warranty!
I must say, I do not understand some of the comments here. If I really ran the boat aground and damaged the rudder, why would I "rant" against Hanse? And if it was the bankrupt German dealer who damaged the rudder during delivery, am I wrong to assume that Hanse should bear responsibility, since I cannot collect from a company that no longer exists?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Frankschicketanz said:


> The ceo of Hanse, Dr. Gerhardt wrote me and told me that my boat left the yard "tadellos", meaning flawless and anything that happened after it left the yard does not concern him. When I made him aware that Toyota, General Motors and Ford among others had to have cars recalled because some problems first become apparent after delivery and use, he said to leave him alone - discussion over. I just wonder how a company like Hanse in such a competitive market can treat its customers with such distain and distrust. If the ceo of a company claims its product is flawless it seems to make a mockery of the concept of a warranty!
> I must say, I do not understand some of the comments here. If I really ran the boat aground and damaged the rudder, why would I "rant" against Hanse? And if it was the bankrupt German dealer who damaged the rudder during delivery, am I wrong to assume that Hanse should bear responsibility, since I cannot collect from a company that no longer exists?


Dearest Frankenschnitzel,

It's pretty simple. Hanse has a pretty good reputation - and has for a long time. You're a new poster slamming them, "quoting" the CEO as saying stuff that kind of stretches credulity.

I'm not saying you're making this stuff up - but until real evidence is produced, you're just another anonymous dude posting rants on the interwebs. Blah, blah, blah....


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Frankschicketanz said:


> And if it was the bankrupt German dealer who damaged the rudder during delivery, am I wrong to assume that Hanse should bear responsibility, since I cannot collect from a company that no longer exists?


Yes, the factory is not responsible for the acts of the dealer, trucker, or skipper. You must show the rudder was defective when it left the factory. Without an expert's opinion to the effect you have no valid claim.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

I will say it again. Get a surveyor.

If the crack appeared as a result of faulty workmanship or defect then Hanse should be expected to cover the repair. If it is from physical damage then that party that did the damage is responsible regardless of current financial state. Why did you not inspect the boat upon delivery? Sorry but I think you will be eating this one unless you can prove it was workmanship or defect.

This thread should be titled *Never accept a new boat without inspection*


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Frankschicketanz said:


> ....And if it was the bankrupt German dealer who damaged the rudder during delivery, am I wrong to assume that Hanse should bear responsibility, since I cannot collect from a company that no longer exists?





jsaronson said:


> Yes, the factory is not responsible for the acts of the dealer, trucker, or skipper. You must show the rudder was defective when it left the factory. Without an expert's opinion to the effect you have no valid claim.


Jsaronson is right. I have asked once and you did not replay: Where was the boat delivered? and it was delivered by truck or sailed to the delivery local?

Regards

Paulo


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

I am afraid there are more questions:

group a: questions asked here. As those around the age of the boat, and so on.

group b: OP, calling himself " Frankschicketanz" inform us that the boat has been in the harbour of Lagos, Portugal for 11 months. 
Now, with internet it is far too easy to get information. It appears that a certain Mr Frank Schicketanz, residing in Lagos, has been sailing a new 40 ft german made boat in the Med, maybe from Lagos, and explicitly from Croatia to Lagos (4000 nm, no less). 
The questions arising from this are obvious.

/J


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Jaramaz said:


> I am afraid there are more questions:
> 
> group a: questions asked here. As those around the age of the boat, and so on.
> 
> ...


Hum, that is impressing. I have made a little search also. Take a look:

POR_2136 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

It seems a brand new Hanse 40. The one that took the photo was Helen Schicketanz and on her blog we can read:

*June 28, 2013
We left Lagos on Monday, a day later than we had planned. 
*
Ex-Pat Online: June 2013

*"July 30, 2013...None of us could believe how quickly we ran aground. The area was very badly marked; in fact, there was nothing to indicate shallow water that we could see. Frank was checking the depth and I looked out and commented that it was getting shallow and BAM! We were stuck. The waves that were hitting us did not help us get out either. We had to call the marina we had just left and they sent help. I think probably most sailors have a running aground story; now that we have ours does that mean we are off the hook?

... The woman in the marina near where we ran aground made all kinds of phone calls for us--to boatyards, to the bank when we needed to get cash and the one ATM in town was still out of order (after having been out of order the night before as well) and lent Frank the marina's scooter to get out to the money machine which was quite far away. ....
....
The same people ran the marina who ran the boatyard in Carloforte where they checked the keel. ..."
*
Ex-Pat Online: July 2013

*September 8, 2013
Unfortunately, along the way we picked up a fishing net and were dragging it behind us. We tried with the boathook to dislodge it but it was too deep and we couldn't move it. We thought that maybe it was wrapped around the keel. Since we were sailing without the motor we figured we would deal with it once we stopped to anchor. ....*

Ex-Pat Online: Frank Under the Boat

*10 October, 2013
We arrived back in Lagos on September 22 and Max started school again on the 24th. He only missed three days, thanks to Frank's incredible planning and navigation!*

Ex-Pat Online: October 2013

Frank, are you this FranK? Is Helen Schicketanz your daughter? She has nice pictures on Flick, she is a good photographer.

Regards

Paulo


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Nice blog, great pictures, but ....... quite the comedy of errors and misfortune...

Curiouser and curioser....???


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)




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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Ouch. I hate when a dude slams his own Frankenschnitzel in the door.



> Isabelle and I recovered pretty quickly, Max was sort of miserable, but the biggest irony was that I have NEVER seen anyone as miserable as Frank was--and he had never gotten seasick before!


Was it seasickness or buyer's remorse?

PS - I think I found the source of the cracked rudder:



> Saturday morning we got out of there as early as possible after hitting the grocery store (a very nice one, at least).


But as we all know, if you claim you haven't ever hit a grocery store, you either don't sail or you're a liar. Damn chartplotters.


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## Frankschicketanz (Apr 3, 2012)

Hi, everyone--This is Helen, Frank's wife, hijacking this post to mention a couple of things. I have tried several times to upload pictures here (which we did send to Hanse), but for some reason I keep getting a message that there is a server error. I hate to ask you to go somewhere else, but if you go to flickr and look in my photo stream (under Helen Schicketanz) you will see pictures of the cracked rudder. You will notice that the crack comes down from the TOP of the rudder. We discovered the cracked rudder when it was out of the water for anti-fouling last June; the running aground mentioned in the blog was at the end of July and did no damage to the rudder.

Second, it is not entirely accurate to say that the boat was not sailed for eleven months. We did sail it for a week in April. Before that--and yes, I grant you that there are a lot of things we should have known/researched/questioned--we could not leave the dock because we were trying to get it registered and insured in our names (SOY made both of these things very difficult, taking twice as long as necessary to get us the paperwork we needed). When we did sail it, we had very calm seas and did not notice anything with the rudder; we certainly did not hit anything. 

We did not inspect the rudder when we purchased it, as it was a new boat. Consequently, it did not occur to us that it would be necessary to inspect it. SOY delivered the boat and put it in the water, where it was when we arrived to claim it. Perhaps we were too trusting.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

When we hauled for a near miss hurricane a few years ago, we were shocked to see impact damage to the leading edge of our rudder. Clearly, we hit something and didn't know it. A couple of years later, we haul for the season and notice a ding on a prop blade. 

Both repairable, thankfully. It happens. Neither were the manufacturers fault. Neither noticeable when they occurred. 

If you dragged netting, you could have stressed the rudder post.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Frankschicketanz said:


> Hi, everyone--This is Helen, Frank's wife, hijacking this post to mention a couple of things. I have tried several times to upload pictures here (which we did send to Hanse), but for some reason I keep getting a message that there is a server error. I hate to ask you to go somewhere else, but if you go to flickr and look in my photo stream (under Helen Schicketanz) you will see pictures of the cracked rudder. You will notice that the crack comes down from the TOP of the rudder. We discovered the cracked rudder when it was out of the water for anti-fouling last June; the running aground mentioned in the blog was at the end of July and did no damage to the rudder.
> 
> Second, it is not entirely accurate to say that the boat was not sailed for eleven months. We did sail it for a week in April. Before that--and yes, I grant you that there are a lot of things we should have known/researched/questioned--we could not leave the dock because we were trying to get it registered and insured in our names (SOY made both of these things very difficult, taking twice as long as necessary to get us the paperwork we needed). When we did sail it, we had very calm seas and did not notice anything with the rudder; we certainly did not hit anything.
> 
> We did not inspect the rudder when we purchased it, as it was a new boat. Consequently, it did not occur to us that it would be necessary to inspect it. SOY delivered the boat and put it in the water, where it was when we arrived to claim it. Perhaps we were too trusting.


I see the OP's point of view.

If all of this is to be taken at face value, then maybe a bit more love from Hanse might be expected.

What was the cost of the repairs??? $1000 Euro?? And what how much would these guys have paid for this boat?? More than 150 000 Euro???

Ok, let's say the delivery guys did do it. Or let's just say the OP did have an accidental oopsy. Actually let's just pretend it is definitely the OP's fault. It is a 150K Euro boat, I would think Hanse would at least be a bit more sympathetic.

I reckon plenty of manufacturers would just say sorry no problem, let us help you out, here have a free t-shirt and please buy your next boat from us 

Either way the OP has a right to express his opinion.

I really love the self righteous choir of posters who only pop up in these threads to act all suspicious and indignant.

:hothead:hothead:hothead:hothead "this guy is using our forum to bad mouth Hanse, he hasn't been here for 5 years discussing anchors like us....how dare he express his opinion":hothead:hothead:hothead:hothead

It's the internet guys....chill.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chall03 said:


> ......Actually let's just pretend it is definitely the OP's fault. It is a 150K Euro boat, I would think Hanse would at least be a bit more sympathetic.
> 
> I reckon plenty of manufacturers would just say sorry no problem, let us help you out, here have a free t-shirt and please buy your next boat from us .......


We have no information on how sympathetic they were. It's not even clear if the boat was even in warranty any longer. Was it?

I'm sure they would have sent a free t-shirt, if that was going to solve the problem. A new rudder? Not in our lifetime, nor is one deserved, unless it is covered under the warranty and the owner complies with its requirements. It's a simple contract.

As I think about it, $1,350 US is not a lot to fix/replace a rudder that is described as split down from the top. I presume there would be water penetration and the interior web would be suspect. I tried to look for the pic on Flickr, as the OP suggested, but couldn't find it. I just don't think we all fully understand what is going on here.


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## Frankschicketanz (Apr 3, 2012)

The boat is under warranty and from the first Hanse was defensive, never sympathetic. Whereas the "after sales representative", after we sent him the pictures of the cracked rudder, wanted to see pictures of the bottom of the rudder, the CEO didn't need any evidence to accuse us of lying. If someone is this distrustful by nature, should they be heading a firm? Or is this attitude by management a remnant of the days when Greifswald was in Communist East Germany, where customer satisfaction was hardly a concern? 
I agree with Chall03 about some of these posts. I thought this was a serious site where we could share experiences, give opinions and advice. Yet with some of the name-calling, making fun of my name and accusations, I feel like I'm in elementary school.
I never wanted sympathy, either from Hanse or fellow sailors. We just wanted what we felt was due us. 
To those who want to play judge and jury, I have nothing to add; to all others I would just like to say beware when dealing with Hanse here in Europe. My experience with them is not unique, a Brit on our pontoon met with similar intransigence when dealing with Hanse. 
I am not bad-mouthing Hanse, after all, I own one and do not want it to be seen as a bad boat.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Sorry, Frank, but how is posting a thread titled 'Never buy a Hanse' NOT badmouthing them, or denigrating the boat?

Had you taken a slightly different tack, included detail on the response of the Hanse rep, included other anecdotal evidence like you're bringing up now, the response may have been less skeptical.

It is sad indeed if, as a buyer of an expensive boat, you cannot get any sort of satisfaction on warranty issues, and I sympathize.. I'd certainly expect better PR regardless of the circumstances.. but 'Never buy a Hanse' sends a pretty clear message...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Frankschicketanz said:


> If someone is this distrustful by nature, should they be heading a firm? Or is this attitude by management a remnant of the days when Greifswald was in Communist East Germany, where customer satisfaction was hardly a concern?


Wow. You're really not very good at this, are you Frank?

BTW - here's the crack:


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Dear Helen and Frank, this is primarily an American message board and to the best of my recollection you may be the first to write on depth on purchasing a new boat in Europe. There are major differences between automobile dealers and boat brokers. In the USA (at least for the Catalina Company) the broker you bought the boat from is responsible for commissioning and warranty repair. They reserve a portion of your purchase price to do this work. Hanse (or in my case, Catalina) will assist the broker technically and will actually “bill” the broker directly if the factory has to supply a replacement part. That is probably why the CEO of Hanse declines responsibility as the boat passed out of his ownership when delivered to the broker. Selection of the right broker is almost as important as the boat “brand”. Your only real course of action is to sue the broker in bankruptcy court for your repairs. Your chances of prevailing against Hanse in court is a lot smaller and you will need to employ the services of a good German Lawyer who can navigate the complex German commercial code. Sadly, you may just have learned an expensive lesson. I apologize for the juvenile comments made by some of the posters. Some do not know when it is time for being serious and when to be frivolous.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

smackdaddy said:


> Wow. You're really not very good at this, are you Frank?
> 
> BTW - here's the crack:


Well... that's not good... and needs to be addressed. Is that hull scraping too? If so that's a pretty good indication that the rudder was seriously stressed at some point. The question then is when and by whom?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Frankschicketanz said:


> I thought this was a serious site where we could share experiences, give opinions and advice. Yet with some of the name-calling, making fun of my name and accusations, I feel like I'm in elementary school.
> I never wanted sympathy, either from Hanse or fellow sailors. We just wanted what we felt was due us.


Well, speaking for myself, it IS kind of like elementary school around here. That's why I love it.

BUT - it can also be a "serious site". That's why I (and I think many others) don't simply take slams on generally reputable companies at face value - especially when posted by someone brand new. There's a whole lot of that that goes on and 90% of the time, there's WAY more to the story than is originally posted (just like in your case).

As Faster has said, you set the tone with the title of this thread. You might not have wanted "sympathy", but you definitely wanted to inflict some public damage on Hanse.

I do apologize for messing with your name. I didn't know it was _actually_ your name. But I don't apologize for my skepticism...skepticism that still remains until I hear the other side of the story if Hanse cares to give it.

All that said, you guys do produce some incredible photography of beautiful places. Well done.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

That's a nasty split. How was it repaired? One has to assume salt water invaded the post and webbing.

How does your warranty read? Is the manufacturer obligated or the dealer?

I would be ticked too, but this is a practical contractual matter.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Faster said:


> Well... that's not good... and needs to be addressed. Is that hull scraping too? If so that's a pretty good indication that the rudder was seriously stressed at some point. The question then is when and by whom?


Yup, even to my untrained eye it looks like damage from an impact. And looks like the rudder was moving at the time, or pressure was on it for a long time as the boat leaned against it, as if it had been grounded, and the boat bounced around for a while, not long but more than just a soft grounding. Does the harbor have a strong tidal surge? Perhaps it was bouncing on the bottom in the sip at low tide? I would still expect the dealer to take care of you and at least give partial credit, especially if it did take 11 months to register the boat. But as said the structure of the warranty seems to leave it in the hands of the dealer, not the manufacturer. I do also agree that if the dealer is out of business, then perhaps the manufacturer would step up. But the picture does not look favorable to you.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I do this for a living and that appears to be a **** job from the factory. There is no evidence indicating anything other than a crappy build, yet another reason not to purchase a cheap **** production boat. That being said it is an easy and cheap repair. Fix it for get it and sail on my friend.


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

Oh, come on. Mr Frankschicketanz or whatever his name is, is fooling us. 

We have asked for some facts. Age, who dilivered where, and so on. But no facts so far. 

But what we have seen is that the statement on "11 months in harbour" is not correct. No, it has been sailing, maybe in the Med. Maybe the boat was actually picked up in the Med , from the agent, the famous "SüdOst Yachting" (for our americans friends, SüdOst Germany is quite close to the Med around Italy). 


As the model actually is old, at least 2 years, you have bought an old model. From a agent who has gone burst. Maybe delivery was somewhere in the NorthEast Med, from which you now have sailed home to Lagos in Portugal after some adventures. 
(bit far from the 11 month in harbour).

Warranty ... very doubtful there is anting left. Then you have been sailing with some accidents. Happens to everyone. 

But why, och why, do you expect the manufacturer to fix this? Even if there is a fabrication fault, the boat is most likely beyond warranty, in particular after some groundings. 

You have most likely got a very good deal when you bought an old model, still a considerable sum. Then you have an annual cost, guess this is in the range €5,000 - €10,000. The cost for this repair is just a fraction of your annual cost, why do you insist so much?

My conslusion is you are trying to fool Hansa, and when that doesn't work, you are trying to fool us, and go on with some rather extensive flaming. 

Doesn't work pal. Not at all. 

I reiterate my recommendation: get the rudder fixed, and sail on. Have a whiskey in your cockpit and enjoy life. Forget about these matters with the rudder. 

You seem to have a lovely family, and a very nice boat. Enjoy!

/J


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

All cheaply built production boats have issues, that is a given. What bothers me is the crappy CS from the factory, they did a poor job and wont stand behind their product, this is reason enough never to purchase from them. It is clearly a manufacture defect but again an easy fix and I agree have a glass of scotch move on.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Frankschicketanz, the guys on this site can be a bit childish sometimes, 'tis true. However, too many of have been caught by people posting bad information - sometimes companies promoting themselves or badmouthing the competition; others who enjoy stirring up acrimonious debate.

However, there are many very knowledgeable - and possibly opinionated - folks; in every thread there will be some unhelpful posts, and some valuable ones.

In your case, there are some open questions, age of boat when purchased, usage of boat (in marina or sailed), possible owner damage to boat - possible broker damage to boat, etc. A crack like that should be carefully examined by a surveyor. In many ways a manufacturing defect is the best outcome - there is a risk of core penetration, but little risk of damage to the internal structure. Spade rudders are particularly vulnerable to grounding/external deflection. This can unbalance a rudder, perhaps damaging the internal structure. However, it is likely that any damage like this would also be reflected in stress marks on the hull.

So get an expert to evaluate it - and then, if you are still convinced it is a manufacturing defect, perhaps Hanse will help. But if it is indeed an older model from an insolvent broker, perhaps not.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

barefootnavigator said:


> I do this for a living and that appears to be a **** job from the factory. There is no evidence indicating anything other than a crappy build, yet another reason not to purchase a cheap **** production boat. That being said it is an easy and cheap repair. Fix it for get it and sail on my friend.


Hmm, you can tell that from one photo, huh? What exactly do you do for a living? Are you a boat builder or a surveyor?

To me it also looks like it could have been water intrusion that froze and split the rudder, or a grounding, or manufacturing defect, etc. It appears that the rudder may be rubbing the hull. The OP should confirm or deny this.

Only a close, in person inspection by a qualified marine surveyor can determine what caused this.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We don't know the factory's point of view.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Wow. You're really not very good at this, are you Frank?
> 
> BTW - here's the crack:


It would be a reasonable request to want a picture that includes the bottom of the rudder.


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## Frankschicketanz (Apr 3, 2012)

The boat is a 2011 model, not launched until 2012 as it was a demo model. Perhaps we should have followed the common sense of never buying a demo model of anything, but as Frank (this is Helen again) said--I think here, but maybe not--one reason that we bought the boat in the first place is that Hanse is a well-respected company who do build a good product. It was delivered by truck--brought from the Chiemsee to the south of France--and launched there. There are no pictures of the bottom of the rudder because quite honestly it didn't occur to me; I wanted the crack to be recorded as clearly as possible. We have not had any sort of tidal surge or any of the conditions people have mentioned. Frank says to also mention that he agrees with you who have pointed out the inflammatory nature of the title of the post, but he posted not long after he had gotten the reply from the CEO. As an English teacher, I probably should have vetted the title but didn't.

On another issue, how did you manage to get that picture up? I tried several times to upload it and kept getting a server error.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Frankschicketanz said:


> On another issue, how did you manage to get that picture up? I tried several times to upload it and kept getting a server error.


Posting a picture here works well with sites like Photobucket and Flickr.. you just need to choose the linking option that embeds the pic rather than one that simply provides yet another link. In Photobucket it's the IMG CODE option.

So simply copy the appropriate link code, and paste it into your post. You may need 10 posts before that works for you. DO NOT try the site-based photo upload.


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

Frankschicketanz said:


> On another issue, how did you manage to get that picture up? I tried several times to upload it and kept getting a server error.


Glad this is heading in a more positive direction! Welcome to sailnet!

On your photo question...

1. Bring up your image in flicker
2. Right click on the image (or on a Mac Control Click) and select a size. Here I did the large. Then right click again and copy the image location.
3. Then put the image inside these








So, for example. The cool pelican would be...









Unfortunately you cannot directly link the light board link that you get in the share options on flicker. Maybe there is a way but I don't know it.

And I agree, you guys take fantastic pics. Come to sailnet and tell us of your adventures!


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

Faster said:


> Posting a picture here works well with sites like Photobucket and Flickr.. you just need to choose the linking option that embeds the pic rather than one that simply provides yet another link. In Photobucket it's the IMG CODE option.
> 
> So simply copy the appropriate link code, and paste it into your post. You may need 10 posts before that works for you. DO NOT try the site-based photo upload.


Faster,

Flicker does not allow this as photobucket does. If you just try to use the default link it fails. Flicker wants you to include a link back to the file on flicker or it is technically against the user agreement. I looked but couldn't find an IMG type link anywhere on flicker. If you know where it is let us know.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

AlaskaMC said:


> Faster,
> 
> Flicker does not allow this as photobucket does. If you just try to use the default link it fails. Flicker wants you to include a link back to the file on flicker or it is technically against the user agreement. I looked but couldn't find an IMG type link anywhere on flicker. If you know where it is let us know.


OK.. I use PB and just assumed Flickr worked similarly as we've seen Flickr images here. Thanks. Your workaround seems straightforward.


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

Faster said:


> OK.. I use PB and just assumed Flickr worked similarly as we've seen Flickr images here. Thanks. Your workaround seems straightforward.


I use PB too and was surprised that I couldn't find the link. There was a FAQ that answered the question for me though as they don't want images linked that way for some reason. Odd. Love workarounds though.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Frankschicketanz said:


> The boat is a 2011 model, not launched until 2012 as it was a demo model. Perhaps we should have followed the common sense of never buying a demo model of anything, but as Frank (this is Helen again) said--I think here, but maybe not--one reason that we bought the boat in the first place is that Hanse is a well-respected company who do build a good product. It was delivered by truck--brought from the Chiemsee to the south of France--and launched there. There are no pictures of the bottom of the rudder because quite honestly it didn't occur to me; I wanted the crack to be recorded as clearly as possible. We have not had any sort of tidal surge or any of the conditions people have mentioned. Frank says to also mention that he agrees with you who have pointed out the inflammatory nature of the title of the post, but he posted not long after he had gotten the reply from the CEO. As an English teacher, I probably should have vetted the title but didn't.
> 
> On another issue, how did you manage to get that picture up? I tried several times to upload it and kept getting a server error.


First of all welcome to sailnet. I hope you stay. I like your photos. As some had said photobucket works better for posting on another forums and it is free too. If you want to share your voyage photos with us, you can post them here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...ted/81388-pictures-those-perfect-moments.html

As many had already said we had bad experiences with people that are not members and uses the site to as a way to pressure companies trough bad publicity regarding claims that cab be (or not) justified.

Things went wrong from the beginning with the title of the thread and with some no factual information even if not intended.

From what I can understand you did not checked the boat on delivery, I mean the underwater part, namely the ruder and don't know if that crack had to do with the boat transport by road. I assume that you or your father looked at the boat before buying it and that crack was not there.

It seems to me that the CEO of Hanse knows perfectly that type of crack cannot happen on a new boat without some hardship. It look like a pressure crack and that's why he asked to see a photo of the bottom of the rudder and almost for sure it is not a fabrication defect.

Probably it happened with the charging or discharging from the boat to the truck and then Hanse has nothing to do with it. I am not saying that he was nice and that he could not have done better, just that he was not obliged to do better: The warranty regards defects not what happens to the boat after this one is delivered to the dealer. If the dealer messed up it is to the dealer to get it right. I know that the dealer bankrupted, yes they could have been nice on Hanse and took over the dealer's responsibility....but they were not obliged to do that. They probably had sold that boat to the dealer at more than a year.

I have a question: You have repaired the rudder before going on that tour on the med? How much was the cost of the repair?

And another question: How much was the discount on that boat over the price since it was obviously a demonstration boat that served for nothing since that model was not anymore in production when it was sold?

That transaction looks like to be a particular one. Hanse had probably sold that boat to the dealer more than a year ago.

The more important is that you have a new nice boat and are having fun with it. Who knows maybe we meet at sea. I live in Portugal but most of all I sail on the med. Next year I will sail on Italy and Greece.

Regards

Paulo


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

*Re: Never Buy a New Boat?*

Should we try to get some order in this?

*The "misunderstandings"*
We were presented with one story with gaps. Wide gaps. When pointed out, answers were not really satisfactory. After some digging more facts were reveiled. 
Here I propose you, Frank and Helen, to give the complete story. If you want of course, not necessary at all. But would stop all speculations.
It simplifies. 
*
Bying a new boat*
A new boat is hardly ever perfect. I have never seen any new boat to be perfect. That includes boats from HR, Vindo, Nautor ... Always issues. Very irritating as the new owner has invested and then wants everything to be .. just perfect. However, a boat is not a car. Not at all. That's why we love the boats.

I see that you, Frank and Helen, have more than one complaints on your Hanse. Relax, fix the small ones yourself, and if there are any real biggies - do complain, but see to that all facts are in order.

Some few years there was an interesting case here in Sweden. A guy going into retirement wanted to upgrade from his old HR31 to a brand new HR 37. He had issues ... expected everything to be of the same quality as it was with his 40 year old Monsun (HR31). But the real surprise for him came when he installed some instruments, drilled holes in the hull and found that inner and outer skins were not attached to eachother. In my mind this is a typical fabrication fault. HR denied everything, it went to court, and all these things. Finally was settled, but the buyer did have a rough ride. Do not want anyone to go that route.
Maybe moral is, consider before you pick a fight with a large company.

*The rudder damage*
From the pics it is difficult to see exactly how the damage occured. There must have been some extrenal pressure, note that the crack is in the front. 
At the same time, many manufacturers have had issues with their rudders. It could be a combination, or just external pressure.

*Repairing the rudder*
As usual, a repair depends on the damage. It is impossible to see in the pics how far the damage stretches. 
A repair could be a surface / cosmetic thing, seeing to that the crack is closed, and kept together by strengthening the front part of the rudder. 
Alternatively, the crack is investigated on its depth and nature. A repair could be to first widen/open the crack, investigation so the rudder has not been weakened by what has happened (this, I think, is what Paulo is hinting).
For €1000 you probably get the first kind. Consider what you want before going ahead. Had a surveyer looking at it.

I have done some repairs on my rudder and bearings myself. Worst part was digging the hole for dropping the rudder. I would gladly pay €1000 for just the digging ....

/J


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## Frankschicketanz (Apr 3, 2012)

Thank you, everyone, for all your opinions and comments. We still believe that Hanse should take some responsibility but it is looking like that will not happen. We've learned a lot from this, if nothing else!


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Frankschicketanz said:


> Thank you, everyone, for all your opinions and comments. We still believe that Hanse should take some responsibility but it is looking like that will not happen. We've learned a lot from this, if nothing else!


Frank, I agree with you, but I will will also let you on a little secret.

There are two sides to boat ownership, one is the happy fun sailing one, the other is the things going wrong, stuff breaking, arguing with people and spending lots of money on things you didn't intend to spend money on, sometimes at times when you are sure it shouldn't be your money getting spent.

If it truly was a 1000 Euro to fix, then pay it and move on. That is a cheap bill for a sparkly boat like yours, trust me.

_If you haven't go a expensive bad luck boat story- you don't sail_


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Frankschicketanz said:


> Thank you, everyone, for all your opinions and comments. We still believe that Hanse should take some responsibility but it is looking like that will not happen. We've learned a lot from this, if nothing else!


I don't know if Hanse should have taken more responsibility but certainly even if they were not obliged too they would be much better on the picture if they had made a small and relatively inexpensive effort to take care of the business. Probably that was what would have happened if the boat was not bought not to a dealer that went out of business and probably one that had already a bad relation with Hanse. Bad luck in all of this to both of you.

Frank and Helen, most of all I hope you have find sailnet. Around here we are mostly cruisers and the site that was originally mainly an American site is increasingly a more international one with many Canadians, many Europeans, Australians, Brazilians and sailors from all over the world.

This was not a good start, I mean it was a not agreeable subject, mainly to you and even so as your last post show your attitude remained positive regarding the forum.

I think I will voice the general opinion: We want both of you among us.

Stay and please Helen, post some voyage pictures on that thread I have suggested. You are a great photographer but if you go to that thread you will also find many great photos and many beautiful places all around the world. There is also another thread about sunset and sunrise images with great photos.

Regards

Paulo


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

smackdaddy said:


>


Looking at the crack, I must say that the location and straight vertical orientation does strongly suggest a manufacturing defect. Many modern rudders are made in a two parts and glued together on the centerline. This looks like a failure of the glue line. If the glue line held, the tear would have wandered off at an angle following the stress line. If this had been an impact damage, you would also have expected some horizontal sheering. A responsible manufacturer would have suggested that the rudder be removed and examined by a qualified surveyor or someone with experience with forensic analysis of composite structures. They would have offered to pay for that investigation if the damage was found to be a manufacturing defect.

If Hanse had seen that picture and done anything less than that, I would have to agree with the original poster that Hanse is a company to be avoided. This clearly should be investigated as a warranty item, unless there was a provision in the warranty, such a excluding rudder damage or use as a charter boat or demonstrator that somehow applied I this case.

By the way, if this is a glue line failure, and it has been like that for months, this is not an easy repair. The rudder should be opened up completely and dried out. The glue joint should be cleaned and re glued with epoxy and then the leading and trailing edge of the connecting surfaced ground down and glassed over with epoxy and cloth. It's a very big job, and not easy to ever get right. I had it done on my 30 year old boat.

Frankly on a new boat employing modern rudder building techniques, it may make sense to replace the rudder all together since these glued rudders are more difficult to repair back to its original intended strength and shape.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Jeff_H said:


> Looking at the crack, I must say that the location and straight vertical orientation does strongly suggest a manufacturing defect. Many modern rudders are made in a two parts and glued together on the centerline. This looks like a failure of the glue line....
> Respectfully,
> Jeff


Hi Jeff, it does not seam to me that the Hanse rudders are made of two pieces glued together but from a single molded piece:

*"Polyester glue is added on all contact places then the rudder stock is carefully glued to the blade.The form is then filled with PU foam which expands dramatically and fills up any free space in the blade. After a few hours rest, the mould is opened and the blade edges are finished by hand."*

You can see photos of an open mold here:

Which Yacht Steering System is on Your Boat? |

Do you have noticed that the ruder is scrapping on the hull when it rotates and that there is not any clearance between the hull and the rudder?








[/QUOTE]

There is normal to have a clearance between rudder and hull. Here a rudder from another Hanse:



The fact that there is not one and the rudder is scrapping on the hull suggests that all system was violently pushed up and that could have resulted in a pressure crack.

My guess is that happened when the boat was put on the truck, or taken away from it unless that had happened when the boat was grounded in Sardinia.

The rudder could have hit a rock or if it is a swallow draft version, with the rudder almost at the same level of the keel the waves that existed when the boat grounded could have moved the boat in a way that the rudder could have touched the ground violently even if that was not noticed aboard. One thing is the keel touching the ground and other is the rudder, the consequences are far different.

regards

Paulo


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

It's possible that what appears to be a 'rub mark' is simply a missed spot when pressure washing.... but the rudder clearance does look tight in the 'crack' pic.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I think that Hanse rudder is rubbing. It looks like the scratch marks are in a circular pattern. I would think that if the rudder had been "punched up" at some point there may be some signs of fracured glass inside the boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

At the least, that photo begs for more information before knowing what caused it.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Here's a close-up of those scrapes:










Definitely looks like it took a hard hit at some point.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Impact resulting in bent shaft, seems clear. As Bob Perry said, it should not be rubbing; Paulo's photos also show that there should be clearance. The impact could have happened in a number of places - transport, grounding etc. Regardless, it should be professionally surveyed. Without meaning to be alarmist, in an extreme case the rudder could break off.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

No doubt that is is touching and the boat has been bounced pretty hard on its rudder. 

But the whole story needs to be told. 

When was the boat delivered?

Was it inspected upon delivery? Since it arrived overland a full inspection before launch should have been done before it was signed off from the delivery company. Who received the boat from the delivery company?

What were the circumstances of the cruise and the time the boat grounded? This is something the owner has not posted about.

Has it been repaired? At what cost? And was there any interior damage? Since the rudder is closer to the hull than designed I would expect some as Jeff has said.

Has a surveyor looked at the rudder? That should have been step one after it was noticed.

And I agree the thread title set the wrong note to start with.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

It has a reverse bend in the post....


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

deniseO30 said:


> It has a reverse bend in the post....


Looks like it. The repair includes dropping it, repairing any damage to bearings and support inside the hull, and probably a new rudder if the shaft cannot be straightened. Better off with a new one anyway as it would have to be opened to repair it - the labor could easily eat up the cost of a new one I guess. Then there is the strength of a straightened shaft to worry about......


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

someone split the front by pulling the rudder with a huge amount of force trying to bend the post back! (it didn't work, and the damage was found)


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

deniseO30 said:


> someone split the front by pulling the rudder with a huge amount of force trying to bend the post back! (it didn't work, and the damage was found)


Sure of that are you?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I could see how something like that could happen during a Med mooring attempt (hitting something) - or just running aground in reverse. Could've been anything.

If it did happen on the trailer, I would think that's something that would immediately affect steering (as the wheel tightens with the shaft bend and/or the scraping) - and should, therefore, have shown up in a survey or the test sail. I just can't see how the wheel would have felt right with this thing like this.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

mitiempo said:


> Sure of that are you?


Nah.. just throwing it out there... the impact in reverse could have bent the post and spilt the front I guess.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

deniseO30 said:


> Nah.. just throwing it out there... the impact in reverse could have bent the post and spilt the front I guess.


Could have I guess, but there would be damage to the aft and/or bottom of the rudder where it hit. Pictures of the entire rudder would help. As well as the rest of the facts.


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

Well, there we are: Speculations, speculations. 

Based on one photo, showing just some parts of the rudder, some experts here are ready to put the blame on Hanse. Oh, yes. 

Looking further, following Paulos thread indicates that the rudder is likely to be a Jefa design & construction. One of the best in the market (even if they are danes). Many have replaced their bearings with Jefa system, many has got their replacement rudders from Jefa. Complaints on Jefa are rare, very rare. Anyone who has an interest in this area should have look in the Jefa homepage (don't worry, it is not in danish).

Hanse makes good boats. Usually considered to be one or two notches above Bav (which by the way not are bad at all). All these large boat manufacturers are industries now. Using industrial design and methods in their construction. That is the only way to produce a 40 ft brand new boat with high quality equipment (Lewmar, Harken, ... and here also Jefa) to an affordable prise - guess that final price tag on this boat was somewhere in the area of €150' - €200'. (Paulo has of course the info on this).
This industrial process results in an even and rather high quality, provided design is not at fault. Boat manufacturers have learned their lessons now, most often consulting good designers and adapters. If there are any mistakes in the process, this will be picked up. As we saw in the case of the infamous Bav keels on the Match series.


Seems there is an agreement in all the comments so far: rudder must be dropped and cerefully inspected. Most likely inside of the boat as well. If there is a Jefa system, then this may not be so serious. 
Do make an inspection inside and outside around the keel as well - if there is any damage it is better to identify at an early stage. 
Funny thing is, as the grounding was an accident, then the insuranse will cover this (inspection, repairs both keel and rudder). The grounding is even already documented .... 

/J


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

If the rudder post is bent forward, the blade is split open and water penetrated the shaft or webbing, which is what that picture suggests, it would cost a lot more than $1,000 Euro to repair. 

The story just doesn't add up. I can't say for sure what is missing, but it's clearly not all in evidence. 

At the least, I can understand Hanse seeing that pic and wanting to know more, before they pay for what may be a grounding or some other non-manufacturing defect.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

PCP said:


> Hi Jeff, it does not seam to me that the Hanse rudders are made of two pieces glued together but from a single molded piece:
> 
> *"Polyester glue is added on all contact places then the rudder stock is carefully glued to the blade.The form is then filled with PU foam which expands dramatically and fills up any free space in the blade. After a few hours rest, the mould is opened and the blade edges are finished by hand."*
> 
> ...


Paulo,

Looking at this video clip 




you can see that the rudder is molded in two halves as I suggested. In the video the molded halves seem to have very small faying surfaces (the area where the glue is applied) and the polyester used makes a very poor adhesive for secondary bonds and is subject to cure issues if not done perfectly. Foaming a rudder in the manner described on the site you referenced, places a lot of internal pressure on the joint as well.

By the same token, the blown-up image (thanks SmackD) seems to show the rudder hitting on one side and not the other. That would seem to suggest a misalignment between the rudder post and the rudder blade, the cause of which we can speculate upon, but I respectfully suggest cannot be determined from simple photos

It is entirely possible that this missalignement occurred due to a grounding or other impact as many have suggested. But it is also possible that this is a misalignment which occured in the manufacturing process. The only way to make that determination is to have a careful a qualified professional do a careful examination.

That is how I see this.

Jeff


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> .........It is entirely possible that this missalignement occurred due to a grounding or other impact as many have suggested. But it is also possible that this is a misalignment which occured in the manufacturing process. The only way to make that determination is to have a careful a qualified professional do a careful examination.....


This is right on. However, if one were trying to convict Hanse, the lack of photographic evidence of the bottom of the rudder and a pretty low repair estimate for the apparent damage would be unconvincing. Of course, the documented hard grounding is damning too.

The stated purpose of this thread in its title is to convict Hanse. I say there is nothing to prove their guilt, not that more evidence couldn't be forthcoming.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I doubt any factory, Hanse or a lesser one, would build a rudder that ended up in that condition without a large hit.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Jeff_H said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Looking at this video clip
> 
> ...







Jeff,

Nice video. (edited) Looking better at the building process I agree with you they are glued but depending on the quality of building and glue that is not necessarily worse and this is a high quality building. Regarding the quality of a Jeffa rudder, as it has refereed by Jaramaz, it is one of the best in the boat industry.

Looking at the bigger photo:










I agree with what many had said already: The rudder post seems bent and was pushed against the hull, meaning a very strong impact from below and behind. It is possible that the strong pressure of the frontal part of the rudder (where is the crack) against the hull was responsible for the crack. The bent rudder post seems to me worse in what regards repair and as someone said probably the best would be to put another one.

It don't seem credible to me that the boat have leaved Hanse factory with a bent rudder post. The boats are inspected and subjected to a series of checks ups and tests before being delivered to the dealer. That rudder rubbing against the hull would be easily detected, not to mention the bent rudder.

I can only see two possibilities:

The rudder was damaged by the dealer when he took the boat from the truck to the water on during the transport. The boat was transported to Med France by truck and was then sailed to Portugal when was delivered and the underwater part of the boat was not inspected.

The rudder was damaged on that grounding (with waves) or mooring backwards to a wall med style and touching the ground while the boat was moving backwards.

In any of the cases Hanse has no responsibility.

Regards

Paulo


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

One other thing, this boat was used as a demo for a year or more. Was this in the water, or up on a cradle? Who knows what might have happened on some test sail? Could have been the dealer's owner's personally used boat for all we know.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Test post.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Faster said:


> Test post.


Should we ignore this?


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Should we ignore this?


Never ignore a moderator, especially not a faster one.

/J


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

smackdaddy said:


> Should we ignore this?


This thread was blocked I don't know why. I could not see that miatapaul post even if it was there for more than a day. Now I can. I guess Faster managed to put it in order

Regards

Paulo


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Soo... it seems we need at least 3 posts on the 'next page' to actually be allowed to go to it. This happens randomly of late, no idea why. When I posted that (by all means ignore ) I could see it in the new posts listing but still couldn't get to it.

No luck yet getting admin to acknowledge/respond...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Should we ignore this?


at your peril ,,,,, he is not a man to be trifled with.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Hey! Just a minute. You ban Faster after I have been trying for three months to get banned? There is no sense of fair play here.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

bobperry said:


> Hey! Just a minute. You ban Faster after I have been trying for three months to get banned? There is no sense of fair play here.


The Faster fellow is simply an annoying oik and is deserving of banishment. If only to slow down the impudent pup's post count.

As for you Perry ... be on your guard or you'll be sent to the room where only your and Brent will reside. Just the two of you.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

tdw said:


> The Faster fellow is simply an annoying oik and is deserving of banishment. If only to slow down the impudent pup's post count.
> 
> As for you Perry ... be on your guard or you'll be sent to the room where only your and Brent will reside. Just the two of you.


That's a special kind of hell right there.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I don't think my saying "TDW will buy you all a round if you don't come to blows" will work here...

By the way, Andrew, you owe a few rounds to more than a few people. That will teach you to be offline for an entire weekend.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

bobperry said:


> Hey! Just a minute. You ban Faster after I have been trying for three months to get banned? There is no sense of fair play here.


Worse still... the ban didn't seem to take....


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

DRFerron said:


> I don't think my saying "TDW will buy you all a round if you don't come to blows" will work here...
> 
> By the way, Andrew, you owe a few rounds to more than a few people. That will teach you to be offline for an entire weekend.


Being the lush that I am ... always happy to shout.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

PCP said:


> This thread was blocked I don't know why. I could not see that miatapaul post even if it was there for more than a day. Now I can. I guess Faster managed to put it in order
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Well that is funny my wife will sit next to me and not hear my posts either, unless they have to do with her new kitchen or shoes.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

PCP said:


> This thread was blocked I don't know why. I could not see that miatapaul post even if it was there for more than a day. Now I can. I guess Faster managed to put it in order
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hey ... just who do you think is the brains of this organisation ?

sheesh.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I guess the op has given up.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

So I was not the only one not to see MP's post for a day or so......hmmmmmm......

Fuzzy is not in charge! oh dear oh me oh my! then who is?!?!?! surely not barbie dude! with the fat fugly dog! oh dear oh me oh my.............


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> Hey ... just who do you think is the brains of this organisation ?
> 
> sheesh.


Hummm I see, so you are responsible for all this mess about post disappearing and appearing again

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

PCP said:


> Hummm I see, so you are responsible for all this mess about post disappearing and appearing again
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


... let me rephrase that ....

I'm responsible for all that is good and proper, all that is deserving of plaudits a'plenty. St Wombat of Astraya.

Everything else is down to our resident Goriller .... or the Canadian, or the Dragon Lady or the wordy fella from New England.

I am simply perfect.

and possiibly mildy delusional .... mildy ? hmmm.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I'd have to ban myself if I typed what I just thought.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

DRFerron said:


> I'd have to ban myself if I typed what I just thought.


Admitting I am perfection personified is hardly grounds for banishment.

bwahaha.

I think I may need to get a grip. I seem to be channelling Brian.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

tdw said:


> ...
> 
> I think I may need to get a grip. I seem to be channelling Brian.


god knows we don't need two of you around here.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

DRFerron said:


> god knows we don't need two of you around here.


too troo. Even I can see that.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Would the two best looking moderators.......ooops,.......MURDERators please quit arguing! It hurts you reputation..........especially the uglier of the two! mr wombat!!!!! now if we was disCUSSing the Wombet......vs drf, now it could get REALLY interesting.......may have to do an SA question, but alas, that would not work toooooooooooooooo well around here! 

So with that in mind, I am going to go hide in an octopus garden under the sea! it might be a tad safer than in here!

Marty


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

tdw said:


> ... let me rephrase that ....
> 
> I am simply perfect.


Or, to rephrase yet again.... perfectly simple....


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

And who is that wordy moderator from New England? I'd like to meet him if I ever go to New England from my home in the Mid-Atlantic states.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

blt2ski said:


> Would the two best looking moderators.......ooops,.......MURDERators please quit arguing! It hurts you reputation..........especially the uglier of the two! mr wombat!!!!! now if we was disCUSSing the Wombet......vs drf, now it could get REALLY interesting.......may have to do an SA question, but alas, that would not work toooooooooooooooo well around here!
> 
> So with that in mind, I am going to go hide in an octopus garden under the sea! it might be a tad safer than in here!
> 
> Marty


Funny, I am listening to Abbey Road right now.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> And who is that wordy moderator from New England? I'd like to meet him if I ever go to New England from my home in the Mid-Atlantic states.


Oh crud ..... maybe Australians know more about geography than most Americans but even so you cannot completely expunge the dim witted.

My apologies Oh Wordy Moderator from the Mid Atlantic States.

Funnily enough I've long been under the impression that America stopped where the Atlantic began. 

Hey Marty .... even in the den of iniquity that is SA that is not a conversation you'd be advised to have.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

tdw said:


> ...........
> 
> Funnily enough I've long been under the impression that America stopped where the Atlantic began.
> 
> Hey Marty .... even in the den of iniquity that is SA that is not a conversation you'd be advised to have.


Td you would have to come to the left coast to find the true America......well maybe..........

Yes, the SA grounds would also get me in trouble with my way to solve the issue!LOLOLOL

Time to head to sisters house..........

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

blt2ski said:


> Td you would have to come to the left coast to find the true America......well maybe..........
> 
> ...
> Marty


Humm, left coast when you are turned to Canada, or left coast when you are turned to Mexico?

Or left coast is where the Democrats are? and the right one where the Republicans live?

Regards

Paulo


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Left coast when you are looking at a globe - North is up.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

SloopJonB said:


> Left coast when you are looking at a globe - North is up.


paulo,

This way! Not sure what to say about them right coast folks, especially the political types, be them D's, R's I's or whatever. all need a new brain, and the ability to think for the country, not a D vs R vs _______! we are ALL in this together!

marty


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

Do they make special upside-down-mounted globes for our Ozzie, Kiwi, S. African, and Patagonian friends? That would explain some folks having trouble finding what's left or right about the USA. 

My spouse is a community college instructor who teaches lower-level English composition and rhetoric, including practical writing. One of her favorite lessons is the letter of complaint. It seems that much of what she teaches might be useful as a checklist for posters who want to complain on this forum about an apparent product defect or issue with a manufacturer's customer service. 

Document, document, document. Anticipate your reader's questions, doubts, and needs. And remember, oral promises aren't worth the paper on which they're printed!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> Left coast when you are looking at a globe - North is up.


Don't be so bloody polarist. We of the southern latitudes have been repressed for too long. Come the magnetic realignment our time will come. Antipodes awake, the revolution is nigh.


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