# Solent Stay?



## dillybar (Nov 10, 2009)

Problem: Beneteau 461 quickly gets over powered going to wind with 140% roller furling Genoa. Rolling (reefing) the Genoa not a good option.

Solution: (a) Install Solent stay and use hank on Jib for Breezy conditions.
(b) Buy a wire or spectra luff Jib.

Pros and cons? Better options?

Thanks guys


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

A solent stay is a good option as installed correctly it will not need runners. Usually it is attached to the deck about a foot or so aft of the forestay and parallels the forestay, attaching to the mast not far down from the top. It of course should be made removable and stowed at the mast of main shrouds when not in use. The foredeck will have to be reinforced at the point of attachment. Here's a link to the fitting of a solent stay. Solent Stay


----------



## wwilson (Jul 7, 2000)

Why not buy a 100% jib?


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

A solent stay with a smaller than present hank on jib would eliminate having to take the sail off the furler when it blows up, making for easier shortening of sail. I'm assuming offshore sailing, daysailing the smaller jib (110 possibly) might be a better choice.


----------



## wwilson (Jul 7, 2000)

I sail offshore every season. I own, and virtually never use a staysail. Slamming around offshore on the bow changing either sail is detestable. A 100% jib will certainly help with, if not cure the overpowered attitude of the boat and can be furled (a bit) and still retain shape. It would almost certainly get more use than a solent or stay sail, and requires no holes drilled through a perfectly good boat.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

The advantage of the solent stay is it allows you to fly a smaller jib down to storm jib size and there is not much reason to visit the bow. When offshore and it starts to blow set the solent and hank on the smaller or storm jib in stops, sheets attached. As the wind increases roll the outer jib in fully and raise the smaller jib on the solent from the cockpit. 

How do you set a storm jib on a boat with a furler and no solent or staysail stay without going forward?


----------



## EpicAdventure (May 18, 2006)

Why do you not like rolling in the jib some? Sure it doesn't yield great sail shape but it is easy to do (and it sounds like you are not racing and are after something easy to do).


----------



## wwilson (Jul 7, 2000)

mitiempo said:


> How do you set a storm jib on a boat with a furler and no solent or staysail stay without going forward?


How did you get offshore in storm conditions when the man asked about too much heel using a 140% genoa?


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

It depends on the type of sailing. For inshore sailing a smaller furling jib or a badly setting 140 furled too far may be a solution but I would think it foolish to venture offshore with the possibility of heavy weather and only a single furler forward of the mast. And not just offshore. In my area (Victoria) at Easter we had 55 knots in the the Georgia Strait area and it decimated the Southern Straits Race fleet, cancelling the race well after the start. Anyone out sailing that weekend in "protected water" had to really be ready for anything.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

wwilson
I wouldn't go offshore in a boat with only a furler with a 140 on it.


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

dillybar said:


> Problem: Beneteau 461 quickly gets over powered going to wind with 140% roller furling Genoa. Rolling (reefing) the Genoa not a good option.
> 
> Solution: (a) Install Solent stay and use hank on Jib for Breezy conditions.
> (b) Buy a wire or spectra luff Jib.
> ...


You CANNOT 'just add' a solent steay without appropriate 'reaction' stay, such as an additional backstay or running backstay (or horrors, intermediate stays)

If you dont have a 'reactor' for the solent, the backstay will react with both forestays; hence, each will be at ~1/2 the tension of the backstay. The result will be a god-awful shape of EITHER the genoa or whats on the solent.
If you dont elect to add an additional 'reactor' when adding a solent you will have the problem of 'differential' (changeable) loads in the head wire dpending on 'how much Sail Area is exposed .... and then the stay that is not supporting a 'flying' sail will receive 'most' of the tension and the stay flying the unfurled sail will UNLOAD .... the unloaded stay (with sail flying) will cause a extremely 'powered up' sail, sagged off to leeward (BAD pointing configuration, the draft will become 'aft' .... the boat will NOT point, will hell aggressively when going to weather, and the boat will be SLOW.

Your signs and symptoms kind of suggest that your present rigging is too damn loose (creating a slack forestay). So, suggest you contact a rigger who also races to assure that the rig tension is CORRECT for your sailing venue ..... THEN contact a sailmaker to possible correct the luff shape ... and possibly add a foam luff, etc. so that you can REEF the foresail. Note: most properly designed and cut foresails can be 'reefed' by 30+% and still have a modicum of proper sail shape. 140% X 70% = 98%
Question: What happens when you reef the MAIN down to the first reef, down to the second reef?
If you're reefing he the jib instead of the MAINSAIL, maybe you might consider reefing the mainsail first.

Otherwise if you have a double tracked furling foil .... buy another but smaller jib/genoa and learn how to 'peel' a foresail (changing jib using one foil and while sailing).


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

The advantage of a Solent stay is that it does not require running backs if properly installed. It is not a staysail stay.
Boat Modifications

And from Brion Toss on Spartalk (the boat being discussed is a Catalina 42)


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The only real issue with a solent stay is that you will probably want to detach it when not in use, so that the genny doesn't chafe against it when you tack. 

Most solent stays I've seen setup used a hyfield lever to quickly attach and tension the solent stay, yet allow it to be detached and moved out of the way when not in use.


----------



## dillybar (Nov 10, 2009)

Thanks for the replies Guys. Just to clarify the main is a hollow leached furler so the Genoa is the power sail. I suppose I could just set a 100% jib on the furler and live with the loss of drive in moderate conditions but I'm looking for a better solution if possible. There are no plans to go off shore but the west coast of Vancouver Island and Juan de Fuca are in the works in June/July. As far as the Genoa working when rolled, I'm going out with the sail maker next week to verify if the sail and rig are working as designed. But in my experience after a few rolls the just don't go to wind very well at at all. We'll see what he says when were out there. 
If I had a full roached conventional main a 100 or 110 Jib would be an easy decision.
A guy on another site was talking about a Spectra luffed jib tensioned with the gennaker halyard as an alternative to a Solent stay. If workable it would seem to be the simplest to implement. You don't need rigging work done and it all goes in the sail bag when not in use. Could you tension the luff enough with a halyard winch? Any one have experience with this system? Might need a snuffer to get it under control in a blow.


----------



## wwilson (Jul 7, 2000)

mitiempo said:


> wwilson
> I wouldn't go offshore in a boat with only a furler with a 140 on it.


Huh? Who was going?


----------



## jjablonowski (Aug 13, 2007)

Question, dillybar: Would the genoa be more usable in a blow if it had beefed-up luff foam to take out some of the baggyness when it's reefed/partially furled?

Or, you might want to check out the latest (May 2010) issue of Sail Magazine and an article, "Riders on the Storm," that looks at two roller-furling-friendly storm jibs. The ATM Gale Sail and the Banner Bay Storm Bag.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One major advantage of a storm sail on a solent stay is that the center of effort shifts aft and down... making the boat far more stable and steady.



jjablonowski said:


> Question, dillybar: Would the genoa be more usable in a blow if it had beefed-up luff foam to take out some of the baggyness when it's reefed/partially furled?
> 
> Or, you might want to check out the latest (May 2010) issue of Sail Magazine and an article, "Riders on the Storm," that looks at two roller-furling-friendly storm jibs. The ATM Gale Sail and the Banner Bay Storm Bag.


----------



## dillybar (Nov 10, 2009)

jjablonowski said:


> Question, dillybar: Would the genoa be more usable in a blow if it had beefed-up luff foam to take out some of the baggyness when it's reefed/partially furled?
> 
> Or, you might want to check out the latest (May 2010) issue of Sail Magazine and an article, "Riders on the Storm," that looks at two roller-furling-friendly storm jibs. The ATM Gale Sail and the Banner Bay Storm Bag.


I will try and find that article. Anyone have experience with either? And ya, the further you roll the genoa regardless of shape the further the Center of effort goes up so I find the drive / heel ratio goes the wrong way quickly the more you reef.
Again, I will report back after I've had the sail maker on board later this week and if he can trim that sail to beat in 20 knts with the rail dry I will re think this whole thread


----------



## wwilson (Jul 7, 2000)

dillybar said:


> If I had a full roached conventional main a 100 or 110 Jib would be an easy decision.


d,

Are you certain that your furling main has left you so short that the 140% should be your "standard" headsail? You know your boat better than I, but I sail a boat with a full batten, full roach main and have had a chance to sail her with two of her sister-ships that carried furling mains.

All three of us agreed that 1) the full batten main allowed a bit higher pointing angle and 2) the difference in speed was not significant enough that it couldn't be accounted for in any number of other ways: e.g. condition of bottoms, sail trim, helmsmanship, etc.

The full batten, full roach main is a more powerful sail, but you may be selling your furling main too short. A change to a smaller headsail may be just what the Bene needs. Certainly it is a less invasive solution than a solent stay - which will end up a PITA in short order, unless you are crossing oceans!


----------



## dillybar (Nov 10, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the input. This site is great for getting varying opinions before making decisions on this kind of stuff.
A good friend of mine who has sailed and raced around here for almost 40 years suggested that I might want to consider a smaller fore sail when I replaced the original stuff. But as a long time motor bike racer the very thought of giving up power did not compute. Can't ever remember when I had too much power on a bike. Boats aren't bikes...maybe should have listened to Sven.


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

mitiempo said:


> The advantage of a Solent stay is that it does not require running backs if properly installed. It is not a staysail stay.
> Boat Modifications
> 
> And from Brion Toss on Spartalk (the boat being discussed is a Catalina 42)


Sorry but that is a GREAT misconception and a dangerous recommendation. If you calculate all the reaction loads (trigonometric solution to get all the X,Y loads), to maintain the SAME forestay load and adding a 'solent' you HAVE to apply an additional backstay, intermediates OR runners - aint NO other way to do this unless you dont have any idea nor care about good headsail shape.


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

A guy on another site was talking about a Spectra luffed jib tensioned with the gennaker halyard as an alternative to a Solent stay. If workable it would seem to be the simplest to implement. You don't need rigging work done and it all goes in the sail bag when not in use. Could you tension the luff enough with a halyard winch? Any one have experience with this system? Might need a snuffer to get it under control in a blow.[/QUOTE]

That is probably the BEST response to your scheme! 
You can additionally tension such with a cunningham ... and that will provide 'adjustabiliity' as to where you want the position of 'maximum draft' to occur. The spectra boltrope only attached to the head, the luff in a sleeve, and the bottom panels tensioned/shaped by the cunningham.


----------



## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

Solent stays are for masthead rigs only, as far as I know. The attachment point has to be close to masthead. I think within 12-18 inches. That is why no additional stays are needed. Also the solent stay does not have to be parralel to the forestay as some believe. I think they are a simple solution for a storm jib .


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

RXBOT said:


> That is why no additional stays are needed..


If you add any additional stay to the 'fore' the tension on each will be ONE HALF that of the backstay. With one half 'normal' tension (~15%), each will be at 7.5% and then the luff curve (luff hollow) that the sailmaker cut into the leading edge of each sail will no long 'match' the expected SAG as the sailmaker expected ... each sail (each operating on a stay that is at ONE HALF - or less - of its expected tension) will create a very DRAFT AFT, SAGGING OFF TO LEEWARD luff .... a very 'powered up' sail that will NOT be able to POINT. That why solent rigs (added solent stay without a 'reactor') are ONLY good for beam to downwind sailing !!!!

For each of the 2 forward stays (headstay + solent stay) to be at ~15%, you will need to increase the combined backstay(S) tension to 30% (going above 30% greatly reduces the fatigue life of most rigging components).

So, if one adds a solent stay and 'no other' reactor stay, one must get the jib/genoa luff (hollow) RECUT to match the reduced (~1/2) tension in their carrying stays.


----------



## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

you only rig the solent stay when you use storm jib, if it is not rigged when 100% jib or genoa is being used how is it going to affect anything?


----------



## tager (Nov 21, 2008)

RichH is right, it would give you a terrible headsail shape if you didn't really tighten the backstay down hard, or loosen the forestay. It doesn't seem completely unreasonable to simply loosen your forestay turnbuckle when flying on the solent stay. However, a solent stay is the wrong solution for the OP. There are situations where a solent stay is a viable solution, but they would probably require cutting a custom sail.

At that point a wire-luff storm jib starts seeming mighty realistic.


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

RXBOT said:


> you only rig the solent stay when you use storm jib, if it is not rigged when 100% jib or genoa is being used how is it going to affect anything?


How it will affect EVERYTHING:
Unless you almost totally UNLOAD the static stress on the OEM forestay, the solent will SHARE the backstay load .... and the storm sail is going to have its luff "mightly sagged off to leeward". The sail stress loads from the storm jib will cause the (unloaded) forestay to 'load up' all the while and correspondingly the solent stay UNLOADING its tension. When the solent stay unloads, the sailshape becomes 'sagged to leeward', draft aft .... and that is DANGEROUS if/when you NEED to fly a STORM jib.


----------



## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

Why then does Selden who makes masts and who I suppose employs people who know about this stuff state that if the attachment point for the stay is between 3 and 6 percent of the foretriangle height below forestay attachment point running backs are not required? Maybe we need someone like Brion Toss to come on and clear this up. I certainly cannot say anything definite about the issue.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Brion Toss has said on his forums:



> *One other option I'd consider would be a Solent stay, which doesn't need runners at all*, and which also allows for a hank-on drifter. So you can bracket both sides of the Genoa's range on the Solent.
> Fair leads,
> Brion Toss


This combined with the information from Selden Spars, which states:



> "(if) the cutter stay is located 3 - 6% of the height of the foretriangle below the existing forestay ... (then) ... running back-stays are not required"


Based on these two statements, I'd say that if the solent stay is attached to the mast within 3-6% of the foretriangle height, then running backs are not needed.

I'd point out that Brion Toss also says:



> Hello,
> There is no reason not to install a Solent on your rig, so long as wire size and tune are done correctly. The only faint alarm here is that fractional rigs are harder to tune well than masthead ones, and adding a Solent could compound a bad tune. The aft-swept caps will indeed provide the majority of the aft staying, but the backstay also has a significant effect, which will vary according to mast stiffness and how close to the top the stays come.
> Therefore be sure to run your numbers on scantlings, and be very sure of your tune. As with a masthead rig, the relative tune of the two stays is crucial.
> Fair leads,
> Brion Toss


regarding the installation of a solent stay on a FRACTIONAL rig.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

If anyone read the item I posted earlier in this thread it was from Spartalk, which is Brion Toss's forum. It was to a post by Brion Toss specifically suggesting a solent stay as they do not need runners. He is one of the most experienced riggers in the US. I'll take his word for this. Here it is again.


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Ummmmm 
With all due respect to Brian Toss, his description (above) is for structural integrity of the mast, but is that its the resultant (variable) SAIL SHAPE thats THE most important consideration, regardless if the mast stay 'up' or not. 
From the above quote, I'll betcha the farm that Brian Toss never sailed on a Solent rigged boat, at least not in winds over 25 knots. If he did then he never once looked at the constant varying in the SHAPE of the foresails with the 'interplay' of fore shroud tensions!!!!!! Only a sailmaker would instantly notice such.


----------



## EO32 (Jan 7, 2008)

Rich,

You make an interesting point. I have a cutter with dedicated running back stays for the forestay.

It seems that if the solent stay was a tad bit shorter, It could carry 100% of the fore load, thus keeping it balanced. That is sailing only with the solent stay sail.

When released, the jib stay would return to 100% of the load.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

That is how I understand it too. The lever that attaches the solent (Hyfield type) can be adjusted for the proper tension to just take the load off the outer stay.


----------



## dillybar (Nov 10, 2009)

The tension issue never crossed my mind. I suppose if the the original stays are designed to have a certain tension or stretch value then you could not just add one more stay on one side and not over tension/stretch the other. I suppose it all becomes moot if the back stay will safely stretch enough to allow the solent stay to fully tension? Eg. if the stays normally run 2% stretch and you then tension a solent to the point where the fore stay is unloaded completely the back stay would now be at roughly 4%.
In practice I think you would find that the actual number would be closer to 3% as the fore stay might retain 1% plus the solent at 2% to balance out 3% at the back. DISCLAIMER - I PULLED THESE NUMBERS OUT OF MY A*S AND NO CALCULATOR WAS USED IN THE MAKING OF THIS THEORY!


----------



## Plumbean (Dec 17, 2009)

dillybar said:


> DISCLAIMER - I PULLED THESE NUMBERS OUT OF MY A*S AND NO CALCULATOR WAS USED IN THE MAKING OF THIS THEORY!


Glad you don't have one of those up there!


----------

