# Tiller vs. Wheel



## Paisan (Oct 19, 2004)

I learned to sail by racing, and am very biased to a tiller - I like the feel and response with a tiller. I''ve sailed with a wheel as well, but only enough to know there''s a difference - not enough to develop any appreciation for steering with a wheel.

I''m wondering what the trade-off''s are and if I could learn to appreciate the wheel or if I''d regret leaving a tiller, as I''m considering buying up to a bigger boat (30-37'') and many are equipped with wheels.

Any comments on the subject? Thanks.


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Paisan, your theoretical 30 footer might weigh 4-5 tons while your theoretical 37 footer might weigh 9-10 tons. In addition, you could be sailing with a semi-balanced blade rudder, a partial skeg rudder (semi-balanced or not) or a barn door rudder with a full skeg. I don''t see how a general opinion about tiller or wheel (the latter offering greater mechanical advantage along with a host of other attributes and compromises) will help you when you begin narrowing down your search.

Better to approach it the other way around: first, which boat...and then, is there even a choice? (Usually there isn''t).

Jack


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Took me a couple days to get used to a wheel, at first everything seems a little backward somehow, really like it now.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

I also learned to sail and race with a tiller, and have always felt that I got good feedback through the tiller, but if a tiller was the only way you could race a boat efficiently, you''d see tillers on the big racing boats instead of those huge twin wheels.

Using a wheel is very intuitive. The first time I ever used a wheel, I felt comfortable with it right away, and felt nearly as efficient as with a tiller. Also, I believe the wheel makes it easier to maneuver around the docks and to use spring lines, especially if you’re short handed. For example, when docking, you can secure a spring line, lock the wheel and use the engine to hold the boat in position while you attach the other lines. You can do the same with a tiller if it is set up for it, but it’s more awkward. What I’m trying to say is that, when you’re docking a smaller boat, you can just muscle it into position. When you’re docking a big, heavy boat, you need to use the motor to move it into position, and the wheel facilitates that.


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## Silmaril (Feb 22, 2003)

Tiler vs wheel is a tough one...best answer is "It depends". 

As Whoosh pointed out, the design has a lot to do with it. A poorly "balanced" design can hide that a little better with a wheel than a tiller. Cost is also an aspect to concider. You will find that as the boat gets bigger, the ones with a tiller are less expensive. I think many people are afraid of larger boats with tillers. Less of a market for them. 

You also have the fact that as the size and displacement of the boat increases, so do the potential loads, necessitating a longer lever (tiller) and you have something that is taking up a good deal of "swing space" in the cockpit. When motoring, propwash can put a great deal of steady torque on the tiller, tiring the skipper if an extended period of motoring is required to get somewhere.

I have sailed on boats as large as 42'' with a tiller, and as I said, a well balanced design is the key there. But in a blow, we would go 1/2 hour stints at the stick to prevent fatigue.

My 37'' sloop has a tiller, is an especially well balanced design, and a joy to sail. I do go out on the race course from time to time, and I think the tiller gives me an edge driving to weather. I also get a kick out of watching some "experienced" sailors eyes go wide when they take the "stick" for the first time on a large boat.

But I damaged my left rotator cuff when I "had to" get somehwere on a cruise, with no wind, and my tiller pilot went on the blink. The steady heavy "helm" from the prop wash on the rudder did me in. (I now have a back-up tiller pilot just in case)

At the dock, or at anchor, I flip the tiller up and out of the way and get a nice uncluttered cockpit. With a wheel, Edson makes a quick release knob that does the same thing.

You also have less to worry about with a tiller, no cables or linkages or anything else to maintain. Less complexity means less to have "Murphy" meddle with. Also less weight in the stern. But wieght can be addresed with the newer composite systems that Edson has on the market.


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## geohan (Mar 8, 2000)

The steady torque on the tiller during long motoring sessions can be eased with as many bungie cords as it takes to eliminate (most of) the load.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

My opinion...I''ve never sailed a wheel that had the feedback a tiller does...no matter what the system. Tillers give more cockpit space and are simplier to maintain. Overall I feel wheels are good for motoring and tillers for sailing. I think balanced rudder designs are difficult to incorporate into hull designs so the mechanical advantages of wheels are the reason we see so many. I think wheels are given more status by the yacht club crowd too.

My biggest wheel boat was 42''x 18k lbs while the biggest tiller boat was 42''x 24k lbs. I once sailed on a 52'' schooner with outboard rudder and 9'' tiller. The crew had to clear the deck (no footwell) every time we tacked. The boat owner always complained about the tiller and he had shortened it at 9''!

Tiller are my first choice but wheels don''t keep me from buying. Fins and skegs do that.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have heard alot of talk around about "big boat small boat which is best for learning" In my mind it should be tiller wheel, and the tiller is by far more important for learning than boat size. With a tiller you feel what the boat is doing. Much of that is lost with a wheel. I have sailed my "big boat" 29 foot Lancer tiller steered, and my friends 23 foot Hunteralso tiller steered. Yes the smaller boat gets kicked around abit more bit still it''s that tiller that I feel the boat and there isn''t that much differnt in the way those tillers feel in my hand.


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## DelmarRey (Aug 25, 2001)

I have a 40''IOR design with a tiller. The advantages I have are:

(1) I can turn her on a dime when in tight spots, like in an unfamilier marina. 

(2) Most of the time I don''t need the auto pilot. I''ve set up adjustable bungee''s so when she''s on a reach or closehauled I adjust''m up until she sails herself.

(3) I can lift up the tiller when in port or on the hook and have more space in the cockpit.

(4) Less worries about maintenance.

(5) Auto pilot takes less energy.

(6) I can feel the weather helm better and make adjustments. Which makes it sail more efficently.

Disadvantages:
(1)When backing you can get pinned between the tiller and bulwark. (Don''t ask!)

(2) The Second Mate gets confused when under stress. (Don''t ask!)

(3) When at anchor in rough weather you have to make sure to secure the tiller or it''ll bang back and forth.

(4) Not just anybody can steer the boat.(high points on this one)

One disadvantage to the wheel for me is you can only turn as sharp as the wheel locks allow.
And you have to usually have to go up and around to get in the cockswains seat.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

Missing for me in this discussion are two elements:

How much racing vs how much cruising the boat is going to do

and

How skilled and dedicated to "going to the edge" are your crew.

I have sailed with both tiller and wheel. I would never want a tiller on a boat that I was going to take on a long cruise (defined by me as 12+ hours or longer without a stop.) I would also prefer a wheel when I have unskilled guests aboard. They adapt to it better. For racing, that is another story. Yes, the feel of the tiller tells you a lot more. 

A quick check of the 300 sailboats in my local marina indicate that the race boats (around the bouy type, not long distance type) have tillers. Everyone else has wheels. I suggest that is because wheels are much more comfortable for casual crusing. And most people do far more casual crusing than racing. This also suggests that tiller boats that are not pure racers would have a lower resale value than a wheel boat of the same make (e.g. our Catalina 42 MK II.) 

Yes it is true that a wheel can obscure sail trim, but if you have some way of knowing amount of weather or lee helm you can trim quire successfully with a wheel. Our autopilot has a helm angle indicator that works even when the autopilot is disconnected. We have used it to learn trim. (We are still doing a lot of learning!) But even a knot tied around the wheel at 0 degrees rudder works quite well.

In summary, I suggest that going fast is much more a function of knowing your sail trim, your polars, and your crew than choosing between a tiller and a wheel. No matter what you can feel in the tiller its all about the trimmers, not the steering (at least not until you reach a level of racing far above mine.)

My 2 cents. Worth what you paid for it!


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

"I would never want a tiller on a boat that I was going to take on a long cruise..."

This observation caught me eye because I''ve just about reached the opposite conclusion. Of course, this is within the context of cruising a 10-11M, 6-8 ton boat vs. one of the larger/heavier boats that seems to be preferred these days. Why would I want to move to a tiller? For long-distance cruising, crew are rarely steering the boat, instead relying on one or more forms of self-steering...so in that regard, the type of steering is incidental. Why the preference for a tiller? First, it''s a far simplier, more bullet-proof system if properly built, something that goes a long way in blue water. Also, it requires little maintenance. Blue water boats demand lots of checks, adjustments & wear-related replacement; the more I can cut down on this, the better. (I almost never checked by Edson steering system. Thinking of going offshore got me very serious about that system and, as it turned out, with good reason on multiple occasions). Third, despite spending this last season in Scandinavia, most of our cruising is done in temperate climates where a cockpit is often the ''living room'' and sometimes the dining room. Folding up the tiller improves the functionality of a cruising cockpit immeasurably. Fourth, I''m sold on a wind vane being the best single self-steering system offshore; it''s relatively simple to repair, becomes stronger when you need it to, as conditions deteriorate, and it''s independent of the electrical system. And wind vane systems have the least control line lossss and simplest arrangements when working with a tiller. And fifth, one can easily add inexpensive accessories to reduce both the loading and the tending of a tiller, making it user friendly.

I realize not everyone sees this preference the same, and Zepher''s quite right to talk about an absence of tillers among cruising boats in American marinas, and a lessened resale value when a cruising boat is equipped that way. We Americans just want a wheel, period. On just about any size boat, and despite the ergonomics of the cockpit suggesting it''s a lousy choice.

But this isn''t at all a common view and one only has to cruise in Europe to appreciate how highly regarded tiller steering is, and how refined tiller-type steering has become. And these folks in some cases sail many, many miles at a time because their seasons are short and their cruising goals are usually quite ambitious for their 2-3-4 week summer holiday period. This doesn''t make their preference for a tiller ''right'' and our wheel fetish wrong, but it does illustrate that there''s more to a good helm than a big wheel.

Jack


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## Paisan (Oct 19, 2004)

Incredible feedback. Thanks folks... Please do not let this response take this full circle and kill the conversation, but I have to acknowledge my thanks and make a few comments:

To Silmaril and Woosh - I heard you both say in your posts (hope I interpreted correctly) that 2 pro''s for the tiller are and an advantage steering to weather, and the reduced "Murphy Factor." Those are at the top of my list too.

To DelmarRey - great input, thank you. We think alike, you wouldn''t be an engineer too, would you??

Billpjr - I agree with you! In fact, I think the single biggest reason wheels are so popular is the "yachtie factor." I am an engineer working in the marine industry, and while I''m not a yacht designer, I can''t believe "design limitations" are the reason we don''t see more tillers on larger boats. Over a certain size, the loads have to get ridiculous and it becomes a "design preference", or a "favorable trade-off" of course, but I can''t believe there are limitations in designing-in balance per se.

SVZephyr44 - Thank you, appreciate your reminder about quick, responsive turning in tight quarters... I remember trying to turn a tight corner in a marina in wheel-steered 36''. I thought it would spin forever - long after... I... hit... that... CATAMARAN!!!

In summary - If its the "decision point" on the next vessel, I''ll be more confident in compromising to a wheel, but the input here encourages me to keep tiller-steering in the "pro" column.

Not sure if everyone reading this will agree with my conclusion, but that''s what I get out of it.

Sincerest thanks for all the feedback!


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## DelmarRey (Aug 25, 2001)

Paisan,

No I''m not an engineer, but the next best thing. A Mechin-ic (Maintenance Machinist/Toolmaker)35 years worth.

As for the tiller, the thing I like to do that catches the eye, is when I''m looking for a spot to drop the hook. I find just the right spot then I pop it in neutral, crank the ole tiller to 80 degrees and the boat spins around on it''s fin keel about two - three rotations and comes to a dead stop right where I want it.

The nice thing about a wheel is everything can be mounted right there. ie. Compass, motor controls, GPS, wind/water instruments and radio mic all within reach. Much like a powerboat. With the tiller everything is scattered all around the edges of the aft cockpit..........._/)


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Del & the group:

"The nice thing about a wheel is everything can be mounted right there. ie. Compass, motor controls, etc.... With the tiller everything is scattered all around the edges of the aft cockpit"

We''ve had the good fortune to see a LOT of N European sailboats now. In the 8-12M range, I find it interesting (and instructive) how three basic design features have become default standards, among many different types of manufacturers. They each are very fucntional:

1. The ''standard'' Euro layout: quarter cabin opposite aft head (which can be more easily used underway), forward facing chart table opposite ''L'' galley, and opposing settees with center table, then V-berth forward.
2. Fractional sloop rigs
3. Tiller-steering in the cockpits with instrument clusters having a home in their own pod, on the centerline and above the companionway. The only exception to this might be an autopilot control unit, since reaching for a button on it makes such a location somewhat awkward. Otherwise, large digital displays make this location quite functional. It eliminates the obstruction they can be when on a pedestal, and the displays are viewable from anywhere in the cockpit (even when cowering behind the dodger!) rather than being viewed only when at the aft end of the cockpit.

Jack


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have to strongly agree with Jack on this that a tiller is very preferable on a resonably modern boat that is less than 12 meters and that it is only US prejudice for wheels that make them so common over here. With a tiller it is easy to place the controls where they fall easily to hand while on the tiller and also placing instuments on the bulkhead or on a pod over the companionway, allows you to see both the jib slot and your instruments. Placing instruments on the wheel pod makes them only visible to the helmsman when motoring. 

A tiller also has the advantage of allowing you to move around the cockpit using the tiller extension so that you can make adjustments and still keep a hand on the helm. 

Jeff


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Jeff & the Group:

"Placing instruments on the wheel pod makes them only visible to the helmsman when motoring."

Errr...that last word...could that have something to do with wheels on American boats, do we think?

Jack


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Jack: 

Have you found that we in the States tend to use our motors more than they do in Europe? 

I know that Europeans tend to have longer holiday''s than we tend to have and so might feel less of a time crunch than we tend to. On the other hand I understand that Eurpoeans generally make longer hops and overnight passages which seems to be less common in the States. The Europeans also seem to tend more towards higher performance cruisers more than we do.I think they also have more consistent winds then we tend to have at least on the US Atlantic Coast. They also have higher fuel costs. All of that would suggest less engine hours per hour underway. Have you observed that to really be the case?

Regards,
Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have wondered if the American preference for certain features such as wheels isn''t related to how you come into sailing. Could it be that a higher percentage of cruising sailboat owners in Europe learned in a dinghy? Looking around our harbor, most people have jumped right into big boats. For someone like that a wheel is vastly preferable. That could explain a lot.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I am not sure whether it is a matter of a wheel being ''vastly preferable to people who start sailing on big boats'' or that people who start sailing on big boats simply have not experienced how vastly preferable a tiller can be. 

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jeff, we are saying the same thing. People who have no experience with tillers don''t undertand how nice they are, and therefore they prefer wheels. My question was whether a higher percentage of American sailors have not used a tiller compared to Europeans.

Getting back to the original question, I agree with the advantages listed for tillers. They are sweet, especially upwind. I have raced single handed without an autopilot, using a tiller with a line strung around the deck. Jibed the chute steering from the foredeck by pulling the line. Wheels have their points though; prefer a wheel driving downwind in big seas, or motoring with a rudder that kicks sideways from the prop wash.

Like almost everything with boats, pro''s and con''s, take your choice.....


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## coreywoodworking (Feb 5, 2007)

*Dumping Wheel for Tiller - Am I nuts?*

I have a Caliber 28. A tight t-shaped cockpit with a bridgedeck, wheel and pedestal. I sail alone 90% of the time, but feel out of control behind the wheel. I can sit on the coaming, wheel in hand, between tacks, but it's the tacks and jibes that worry me. I can reach the genoa winches, have to bound up on the seats to go forward or return aft, and still feel out of touch with cabin-mounted halyards/reef lines/mainsheet.

Grew up on Highlanders / 420s / Flying Scots / catboats, here in Boston. Would prefer to trim mainsheet at a traveler just aft of bridgedeck. Would prefer to jibe the mainsail facing the traveler, with the tiller between my legs. I think I'd feel more in control than I do now and, again, I usually sail solo.

Refitting this winter, finally sailing south in the spring or summer. Have all the dimensions, have worked out the drawings, but still questioning my wisdom (about cockpit changes!).

The great replies in this tiller-vs-wheel thread have helped me to consider many additional POVs. For instance, I hadn't considered your observations on motoring -- and my rudder isn't balanced. One answer: I'd carry two tillerpilots, bungees and would reallty like a windvane.

Still, I'd appreciate anything you have to say...


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## SoftJazz (Aug 31, 2009)

I'm glad to see this post because next season I'll be on a tiller boat & it looks like I'll have to learn to drive it. I'm a bit nervous because I have very little tiller experience, but I'm always willing to learn something new. 

Thanks for the post & the information/feedback.


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## Sublime (Sep 11, 2010)

The mechanical advantage you get with the wheel can be a pro or a con. I'm comfortable with either.

I think the most significant advantage a tiller has is the cockpit space. I've banged my elbow into the wheel while working on something and cursed that thing to death. Or a knee. I think I need to look into that quick disconnect thing.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

It really depends on the displacement, not the LOA, of the boat you're talking about. TP 52's have tillers. Old 40' One tonners have tillers. If you like lighter boats, particularly those with high aspect spade rudders, you're more than likely going to enjoy the responsiveness of a tiller, and the better it will work with the boat. The greater the displacement, the more sense a wheel makes. Why do most boats in the marina have wheels? Many owners don't come from boat owning families or dingy racing backgrounds. A wheel is easy. It's like your car. For many who come to sailing later in life, a tiller will always feel a little odd unless you're really willing to work at your sailing skills. Personally, I like the mechanical simplicity and feel of a tiller. That said, if I had a 43-44' boat that weighed 25,000k lbs or so and was doing a lot of auto pilot cruising/passage making, a wheel would be fine.

Instrument pods on a wheel? Hate'em. No one can see them except the driver. And what do you do when the self-steering or AP is one? It stinks having to run back in the rain, spray, cold, etc... to catch a glimpse of the holy pod. Drives me nuts... that's just me. You're mileage may vary.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Tiller.


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## DubeJ (Sep 14, 2010)

till till death!


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Better feel for what the boat wants/needs with a tiller. I think it comes down to balance rather than displacement though. A wheel will give you better mechanical advantage and less feel. With a tiller you know when you are over canvassed or trimmed incorrectly - the weather helm is a lot more obvious. With the wheel you are more isolated and less in tune with the boat.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

I like tillers and they have many advantages, but one of the disadvantages I found is that on really bad weather you can not "hold" on to a tiller. That is specially a problem in modern boats that have large transoms. When the boat is bouncing around in waves, up and down with some lateral jerks, I find some support on the wheel (and its pedestal), that I can not find in a tiller boat.

Racing boats have solved this with some metal supports for the feet that unfortunately you don't have on cruising boats. 

Regards

Paulo


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

PCP said:


> Racing boats have solved this with some metal supports for the feet that unfortunately you don't have on cruising boats.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


... but you could easily enough. It's just a trip to a fabricator, some holes drilled, bits bolted, bedded, and there you go!


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## BenMP (Oct 19, 2010)

One other consideration is physical size. My wife is on the slight side and really likes the mechanical advantage of a wheel. She has no problem using a tiller but prefers the wheel.


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## IslanderGuy (Apr 26, 2008)

My take on the "Why do so many American boats have wheels" is simply...

1. Most people who by brand new boats in America are not really sailors, just people with money looking for something new to do. (Not all, but most, as evidenced by all the new boats that never get sailed) 

2. To a non-sailor, tillers are old-school and low tech. Seeing a tiller makes some people wonder if they are still using natural fiber sails and tar sealed wood hulls as well. Wheels are new and high tech and fancy. Cars have wheels, power boats have wheels, why would a sail boat be stuck in the old days of a tiller?

3. If the people with the money are turned off by the sight of a tiller, then no tillers will be installed, regardless of all the finer points either way. Most large manufacturers will go with what sells first, without regard for which would be better for this particular hull, shape, size, weight, design of boat. Only your more specialized manufacturers who tailor to the real sailors with lower volume boats will take that into account.

Not saying wheels are always bad, and tillers are always good, I think the points of what makes sense and when have already been covered by far more knowledgeable people then me. But for me, I am happy with the tiller I have, mostly because it is on the boat that I have.


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## sailjunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

mitiempo said:


> With a tiller you know when you are over canvassed or trimmed incorrectly - the weather helm is a lot more obvious.


Sorry Brian, but I disagree. We just went from tiller steering on Catalina 27's to wheel steering on a Mirage 29. Weather helm and trim are very discernible.

The BIG advantage of tiller steering is that there are fewer moving parts to break.

I tend to like tiller steering on smaller boats; wheel steering on bigger (+ 30 ft?) boats. As for room in the cockpit, my experience suggests that it is six of one; one half dozen of another. They both take up room--just in different ways.


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## ffiill (Jul 15, 2010)

On my old 28 foot Bermudan sloop it was a tiller.On my 33 foot motor sailer its a wheel.Hydraulic pumpactuated by wheel operates a hydraulic ram through non return valve.
You can steer with your index finger and once balanced take your hands off the wheel and do something else like navigate.Very useful when like me you are single handed.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

IslanderGuy - I disagree with the first 2 points.

I think that wheels are easier to use for many novices. Just like a car. I also think that a wheel takes less space while underway. Wheels certainly are more costly to manufacture and can breakdown (at the most inopportune times). With that said, I'm equally at home with either. As other said, there are pros and cons.


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## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

IslanderGuy said:


> My take on the "Why do so many American boats have wheels" is simply...
> 
> 1. Most people who by brand new boats in America are not really sailors, just people with money looking for something new to do. (Not all, but most, as evidenced by all the new boats that never get sailed)
> 
> ...


LMAO!!!   

I am so surprised that you would come out "for" the tiller!

In dinghy's where a wheel cannot fit, they are the only choice. Where the option exists, the wheel is always preferred. The barrier is cost.

I have no fond memories of the chaos created by tacking, with a tiller, with guests in the cockpit. If you wish to entertain friends on your boat, the tiller olympics is not really the way to go.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

puddinlegs said:


> ... but you could easily enough. It's just a trip to a fabricator, some holes drilled, bits bolted, bedded, and there you go!


That's not so easy and there are disadvantages. If it was as plain as that, all modern tiller boats would come with that stuff as standard

You would have to have those metal parts mounted on each side of the boat, and it would take a lot of space to the cockpit, interfering with the seating space (those parts are for having a support while steering from the upper part, near the rail), and those metal pieces would probably also interfere with opening parts of the boat (I don't know how you call it) I mean the place under the seats where you have the storage on the cockpit.

Yes you can have ones, but they have a cost and not only in price. There are tiller boats (modern ones, with large transom) that doesn't even offer them as an option, none that I know off offer them as standard and some, like the new First 30 offer them as an option (nice ones) .

Regards

Paulo


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