# How long will my fiberglass hull last?



## Edo Kazumichi (Apr 7, 2006)

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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I wrote this for a different venue but it may address some of your questions. Westsails are a classic case of a very heavily laid up hull, but one that was laid up using techniques that are now known to shorten the life of the fiberglass and are also boats that have minimal intgernal framing. Since these boat vary widely in fit out its hard to say specifically how your boat will last especically since I have been on Westsails that did not flex at all, and another that seemed to wrack in heavy going. (Here is the article that I wrote on the lifespan of a fiberglass boat)

Jeff


"I would not think that a well- constructed fiberglass has a life span per se. Neither concrete nor fiberglass inherently breaks down or loses strength simply on their own without other factors coming into play. They require other causes. In the case of fiberglass loss of strength can result from one or more of the following, 

-The surface resins will UV degrade. 
-Prolonged saturation with water will affect the byproducts formed in the hardening process turning some into acids. These acids can break down the bond between the glass reinforcing and the resin.
-Fiberglass is prone to fatigue in areas repetitively loaded and unloaded at the point where it is repetitively deflected. High load concentration areas such as at bulkheads, hull/deck joints and keel joints are particularly prone.
-Salts suspended in water will move through some of the larger capillaries within the matrix. Salts have larger molecules than water. At some point these salts cannot move further and are deposited as the water keeps moving toward an area with lower moisture content. Once dried these salt turn into a crystalline form and exert great pressure on the adjacent matrix.
-Poor construction techniques with poorly handled cloth, poorly mixed or over accelerated resins, and poor resin to fiber ratios were very typical in early fiberglass boats. These weaker areas can be actually subjected to higher stresses that result from much heavier boats. It's not all that unusual to see small spider cracking and/or small fractures in early glass boats.
-Of course beyond the simple fiberglass degradation there is core deterioration, and the deterioration of such things as the plywood bulkheads and flats that form a part of the boat's structure.
<O</O
Earlier boats had heavier hulls for a lot of reasons beyond the myth that designers did not know how strong fiberglass was. Designers knew exactly how strong the fiberglass of that era actually was. The U.S. government had spent a fortune developing fiberglass information during WWII and by the early 1950's designers had easy access to the design characteristics of fiberglass. (Alberg, for example, was working for the US Government designing F.G. composite items when he designed the Triton and Alberg 35) The reason that the hulls on the early boats were as thick as they were had more to do with the early approach to the design of fiberglass boats and the limitations of the materials and handling methods used in early fiberglass boats. Early designers and builders had hoped to use fiberglass as a monocoque structure using an absolute minimal amount (if any) framing which they felt occupied otherwise usable interior space. 
<O</O
On its own, fiberglass laminate does not develop much stiffness (by which I mean resistance to flexure) and it is very dense. If you try to create the kind of stiffness in fiberglass that designers had experienced in wooden boats, it takes a whole lot of thickness which in turn means a whole lot of weight. Early fiberglass boat designers tried to simply use the skin of the boat for stiffness with wide spread supports from bulkheads and bunk flats. This lead to incredibly heavy boats and boats that were still comparably flexible compared to earlier wooden boats or more modern designs. (In early designs that were built in both wood and fiberglass, the wooden boats typically weighed the same as the fiberglass boats but were stiffer, stronger, and had higher ballast ratios) 
<O</O
The large amount of flexure in these old boats was a real problem over the life of the boat. Fiberglass hates to be flexed. Fiberglass is a highly fatigue prone material and over time it looses strength through flexing cycles. A flexible boat may have plenty of reserve strength when new but over time through flexure fiberglass loses this reserve. There are really several things that determine the overall strength of the hull itself. In simple terms it is the strength of the unsupported hull panel itself (by 'panel' I mean the area of the hull or deck between supporting structures), the size of the unsupported panel, the connections to supporting structures and the strength of the supporting structures. These early boats had huge panel sizes compared to those seen as appropriate today and the connections were often lightly done.
<O</O
This fatigue issue is not a minor one. In a study performed by the marine insurance industry looking at the high cost of claims made on older boats relative to newer boats and actually doing destructive testing on actual portions of older hulls, it was found that many of these earlier boats have suffered a significant loss of ductility and impact resistance. This problem is especially prevalent in heavier uncored boats constructed even as late as the 1980's before internal structural framing systems became the norm. The study noted that boats built during the early years of boat building tended to use a lot more resin accelerators than are used today. Boat builders would bulk up the matrix with resin rich laminations (approaching 50/50 ratios rather than the idea 30/70), and typically used proportionately high ratios of non-directional fabrics (mat or chopped glass) in order to achieve a desired hull thickness. Resin rich laminates and non-directional materials have been shown to reduce impact resistance and to further increase the tendency towards fatigue. The absence of internal framing means that there is greater flexure in these older boats and that this flexure increases fatigue further. Apparently, there are an increasing number of marine insurance underwriters refusing to insure older boats because of these issues.
<O</O
I have been looking at a lot of older fiberglass boats in the past few years. One thing that has struck me is the sheer amount of noticeable flexure cracking in areas of high stress, such as bulkheads, chainplate attachment points, hull to deck joints, cabin to deck lines, engine beds and rudder posts, and other high load hardware positions. 
<O</O
There are probably other forms of hull degradation that I have not mentioned but I think that the real end of the life of a boat is going to be economic. In other words the cost to maintain and repair an old boat will get to be far beyond what it is worth in the marketplace. I would guess this was the end of more wooden boats than rot. I can give you a bit of an example from land structures. When I was doing my thesis in college, I came across a government statistic, which if I remember it correctly suggested that in the years between 1948 and 1973 more houses had been built in America than in all of history before that time. In another study these houses were estimated to have a useful life span of 35 years or so. As an architect today I see a lot of thirty five year old houses that need new bathrooms, kitchens, heating systems, modern insulation, floor finishes, etc. But beyond the physical problems of these houses, tastes have changes so that today these houses in perfect shape still has proportionately small market value. With such a small market value it often does not make sense from a resale point of view to rebuild and these houses are therefore often sold for little more than land value. At some level, this drives me crazy, since we are tearing down perfectly solid structures that 35 years ago was perfectly adequate for the people who built it, but today does not meet the "modern" standards.
<O</O
The same thing happens in boats. You may find a boat that has a perfectly sound hull. Perhaps it needs sails, standing and running rigging, a bit of galley updating, some minor electronics, a bit of rewiring, new plumbing, upholstery, a little deck core work, an engine rebuild, or for the big spender, replacement. Pretty soon you can buy a much newer boat with all relatively new gear for less than you'd have in the old girl. Its not hard for an old boat to suddenly be worth more as salvage than as a boat. A couple years ago a couple friends of mine were given a Rainbow in reasonable shape. She just needed sails and they wanted a newer auxiliary, but even buying everything used the boat was worth a lot less than the cost of the "new" parts. When they couldn't afford the slip fees, the Rainbow was disposed of. She now graces a landfill and the cast iron keel was sold for scrap for more than they could sell the whole boat for. 
<O</O
Then there is the issue of maintainable vs. durable/low maintenance design concepts. Wooden boats for example represent the difference between a maintainable construction method versus a low maintenance/ durable method. A wooden boat can be rebuilt for a nearly infinite period of time until it becomes a sailing equivalent of 'George Washington's axe' (as in "that's George Washington's axe. It's had a few new handles and a few new heads but that is still George Washington's axe".) The main structure of a fiberglass hull is reasonably durable and low maintenance but once it has begun to lose strength, there is nothing that you can do. 
<O</O
The best deals on older used boats are the ones that someone has lovingly restored, upgraded, and maintained. Over the years they have poured lots of money and lavished lots of time into maintaining the boat in reasonably up to date condition. No matter how much they have spent the boat will never be worth anything near what they have in it because there is a real ceiling to how much an older boat will ever be worth and they will often have several times that ceiling invested.
<O</O
And finally if you buy an old fiberglass boat, paint the bilges white. It does nothing for the boat, but if you ever have to sell the boat, then someone may look in your bilge and say "Lets buy her because any owner who would love a boat so much that he went through the trouble to paint the bilge white must have enjoyed this boat and taken great care of her no matter what her age."
<O</O


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## Edo Kazumichi (Apr 7, 2006)

Jeff_H,

Excellent stuff.

I understand that boats typically meet their end at the bottom line of a cost/benefit analysis. But my question has to do with safety, i.e., the structural integrity of the hull itself. Assuming that someone has the money and willingness to just keep re-fitting her, how long will it be before a hull fails catastrophically through some combination of fatigue and chemical deterioration? Of course this is a "it depends" question but surely you'd have a guestimation for an average boat of my vintage.

Have you ever heard of this kind of failure? Or does the bottom line always intervene before this can happen?

Cheers!


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Edo, 

I think it is less a a question of age than it is wear and tear. If one boat has been lightly used seasonally and another has made multiple circumnavigations around the southern capes, they will have different amounts of remaining lifespan.

But there are loads of fibreglass boats much older than your Westsail still going strong.


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## blackbart500 (Sep 18, 2009)

*old boat*

i am 75 years old, i just sold a 40 year old east porter power boat 24 foot, still in my opinion a lot of good years left.i bought a pearson 26 ,35 years old because they are built tough and some are older rhan that, in my case it will last long enough .


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## GBurton (Jun 26, 2007)

JohnRPollard said:


> Edo,
> 
> I think it is less a a question of age than it is wear and tear. If one boat has been lightly used seasonally and another has made multiple circumnavigations around the southern capes, they will have different amounts of remaining lifespan.
> 
> But there are loads of fibreglass boats much older than your Westsail still going strong.


Good point. Also, as the Westsails are very stiff boats comparatively speaking (in construction terms) compared to some of the other boats mentioned here, chances are they will still be around for many, many years.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'm not sure where the other poster was going with the pseudo-babble...In particular he lost me when mentioning an unreferenced article about homes being built post war that had life spans of 35 years. I guess when I look around I don't see these tracts falling down...some 50 years later.

For an example of response that cites studies, including those of the USN, boatbuilders, and others with skin in the game, please read:

http://www.ericgreeneassociates.com/images/Boat_Longevity.pdf

With respect to your question, the easiest answer comes from something which is also the simplest to grasp:

How many 30 year old fiberglass boats are being retired because of problems with their hulls? That's right, none at all. Rigging, electrical, plumbing, wood treatments, layout, etc. determines that the old clunker is ready to be cut up and thrown in a dumpster.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

JProcter said:


> I'm not sure where the other poster was going with the pseudo-babble...


Ahhhh, some may read it once and know where he was going. others never will


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

poopdeckpappy said:


> Ahhhh, some may read it once and know where he was going. others never will


Whatever you think, oh wise one. Alas, I do know where he was going, and it certainly wasn't anywhere near answering the guy's question.

I guess studies by the US Navy which are precisely on point to the original poster's question have a bit...I don't know...let's call it gravitas than some person on the internet reposting his own post that tells us that resins degrade with UV and that some uncited study says that boats get fatigued the older they are.

The guy asked an easy question. His fiberglass hull will outlive him so long as the rest of the boat stays up to shape. My cite proves it. Learn to deal with it.


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## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

I really doubt anybody on this list, or their children will live long enough to see a westsail 32 hull fail from old age!

A walk down any dock in a cheaper marina will show tons of cheap 60s and early 70s MacGregors, etc still floating with sound hulls. The W32 hull must be 2-3 times as thick, and made from higher quality materials as well?

I'm not that familiar with the W32, but I always think of it as the quintessential indestructible boat. A boat that will still be seaworthy after nearly everything else made in the 20th century is long gone. It's up there with the Volvo 240, and the Star of India.


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## cutterorient (Feb 22, 2009)

I thought the intial response was informative, well written, and made a great effort at answering a question to which there is no definitive answer.

That said I own a boat (well) built in 1983. She's got tons of life left in her and is well cared for by me and that'll do it for me for decades more I'm sure. I don't understand the undertones of anger for a guy expressing his thoughts. Seems out of place here


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

JProcter said:


> Whatever you think, oh wise one.


I think you could have posted your link and opinion without being a smartass towards Jeff and his post;

I think if you read the conclusion of your linked article it pretty much mirrors Jeff comments, though Jeff went a little further in depth.

I think the lifespan of FG hulls depends on many factors as mentioned in Jeffs post; I know of several SV that are sound at 30,40,45 yrs old, I know of several newer SV that has had some serious structural failures, one was a hot topic here on SN.


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## Edo Kazumichi (Apr 7, 2006)

Good stuff, folks.

The expression "modern design" begs a lot of question. For one, just because the technical know-how exists doesn't mean that it was employed in the construction of any particular boat. Technical know-how can more profitably be employed to build the cheapest, most fashionable, and most marketable boat than the strongest, safest, and fastest one. 

Anyway, my point was that I'm sitting on a 36 year-old boat that could use several thousand worth of TLC. I'm not concerned about resale value. I just want to make sure that I'm not pouring money into a hull that is going to crack in two (as I saw happen once to a "modern design" boat) at some point in the next couple decades.

Further thoughts?


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## cutterorient (Feb 22, 2009)

I think as long as there is nothing super major, as in a large % of the hull in an advanced state of delamination, you just keep fixing it and of course sailing it. I also think its important to think of resale as the original responder said, not necessarily because you want to sell it, but more in replacement cost terms. Does it make sense to spend $15 on a boat when its equivalent can be bought for $10?


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Here is the deal on insurance on and old boat in MY case which i am fixing 

After a survey it will get a value it can be insured at

In MY case i can increase THIS value by the cost of new PARTS i install like 7000 dollars to cover a diesel 

The labor to install does NOT have VALUE

Painting the hull all pretty will NOT increase the value unless a second survey finds a significant change in market value 


I am not and insurance expert BUT i do pay one


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

Much as I hate fiberglass (much prefer metal) I suspect there is no pratical life span as such if it is properly maintained. One of the great things about fiberglass is that it is almost perpetually fixable. Take a boat with a really bad case of blisters. You could in fact plane off virtually the entire hull below the waterline and essentially use what is left as the mold to layup a whole new hull on top of it. By using newer, stronger, and more water resistant materials it could easily be far stroger than it was was when new.

My Etap 26 is a pretty good case in point. Due to TCDA (Terminal Case of Dumb Ass) on the part of the original designer the hull has deformed one full inch in the area around the keel trunk. That took 25 years though, and the bottom of the hull is no longer as flat, which actually makes the shape better at taking the load. I took out almost nothing, and added a massive amount of epoxy fiberglass reinforcing on the inside of hull. So I have no doubt that the hull is now stronger than it was new.

By the way this is my second hull rebuild, I did a Hunter 27 to far better than factory strength about 25 years ago. I also stregthened the rudder support, and the propellor strut area, with very little effort.

Gary H. Lucas


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## Pub911 (Oct 25, 2007)

1972 Hughes NorthStar 38 (same hull as {in}famous Cap'n Fatty of CW fame's _Wildcard) and she's solid as a rock and going strong. Perhaps imperical data will satiate._

Please join the contributions to support the claim: [...longer than anyone posting or reading here] will last.


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

casioqv said:


> I really doubt anybody on this list, or their children will live long enough to see a westsail 32 hull fail from old age!


On first 100 or so hulls of Westsail deck was connected to hull via wooden board.
How many years those hulls will last without extensive and expensive intervention?


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

cutterorient said:


> Does it make sense to spend $15 on a boat when its equivalent can be bought for $10?


Thats where pride of ownership kicks in, I bought a 26 footer and sunk a boat load of money and labor hrs into it, the new sails alone were worth more than the purchase value of the boat, but the boat was sound, had beautiful lines and was a fast & fun boat to sail.

I had some people tell me it should have been removed from the marine and crushed, when it was done, I had people asking if I would sell her, I did eventually and it only took one day, put a sign on her on a sunday afternoon, had her sold monday night.

I saw her not to long ago and she's still in the water, looks like they race her and she still looks great for 40yrs old


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## Kiskadee (Nov 19, 2008)

*Cored hull FRP*

Yes, fibreglass hulls should outlive most owners but a wooden cored hull may not. Osmosis or cracks in solid fibreglass are repairable. If a wooden core gets wet the boat may be beyond economical repair. To many people it isn't an issue, but I'd never buy a boat with a cored hull.
Years ago an experienced surveyor told me that if the hull is sound, then most anything else can be fixed. If the hull is soft, then it doesn't matter how beautiful the interior looks, the boat's not worth the money. He also refused to finish a survey in the winter as every wet hull is solid when frozen.
If your boat has a cored hull then make sure you have a current survey proving it to be dry and sound. Some insurance companies have use cored hulls as an excuse not to payout after a boat is destroyed. Once holed and on the bottom the core will become wet. After being raised for salvage the insurance company claims that the hull failed as it already was wet and therefore soft. Unless you can prove that the hull was dry and sound they may not pay anything. 
Cheers, Dana


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## Lost (Apr 12, 2010)

*1974 Morgan 33 with moist to wet bow readings*

I have been reading everyones posts quite avidly after i just found out the above about my boat i am working on. Sadly, it is my first boat, i paid too much and i am learning alot of hard lessons. I am still having fun, but this latest one has me a bit depressed.
I hope Jeff is still posting as his answers seemed to be very informative. My question bascially relates to the orginal poster who asked how long his boat will last, or is the thing going to break up mid ocean?

In the bow, above the waterline i have moist to wet readings. My brand new paint job with has been properly done with high-build and 545 primer and 2 coats of awlgrip is blistering only in the bow, which prompted the moisture meter.

Anyway, the painter says i have three options. 
#1. Drill 3/4" holes all over the bow and leave it for 6 months to dry out, fill with West System 107 (i think) and patch/paint. 
#2. Plane down the gel coat and take as much of the delaminating fiberglass wove out as necessary to get it all out and rebuild the bow (this sounds like it is out of budget - it is only a Morgan, not a Swan)
#3. Leave it as is, painter says, once i get it back in the water the blisters will subside. reason being is that in the dry heat on the hard is drying it out.

I am concerned about my safety then, as a second priority the cost of repairations balanced with the actual cost of the boat.
I won't get into how much i have in the boat already, lets just say by the time i am done, and i cannot turn around now, it will cost double the initial price. The cost of education is expensive, and i am learning quickly.
So my question for the group is, what is the best thing to do now?
Do i have a serious problem that needs to be repaired?
Which repair is the best considering the current situation?
Or will i be ok out there on the water and for how much longer if i ignore this issue? Is there any other repair that can be done?
One guy mentions putting a giant Dehu inside and drying out the interior. Will it suck out all the humidity from the inside?
Your help is very much appreciated.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Lost-

You'd really be better off posting this as its own thread. Please read the *POST* in my signature to find out how to do that and a lot of other good stuff to help you get the most out of sailnet.


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## maureeno123 (Sep 17, 2007)

*72 pearson little spider cracks in hull*

We bought a 1972 Pearson, love her and never want to sell her. We are retired and everything about her, we love, and are willing to put money, time, care into her for us and our children and grandchildren. With that in mind, we need some direction.

When we had her soda-blasted in 2008, the gentleman found extensive blisters, brought in an honest surveyor and the decision was made that the water was not that much. She is a center cockpit 390, 39 long, 13ft beam. Beautiful lines.

We had her hand sanded to remove the blisters and I presume by such removed much of the hard coat. I don't know that much, and knew much less at the time.

She was "refared", and painted with a gray, two-part paint, which he referred to as her hard coat. Several coats, I believe. He is reputable, and used all name brand products. We have pictures of the work as it was done.

The deck was soft in several spots, and he opened those up, replaced the balsa? wood, and again, I have pictures of the products and the work.

The hull was painted with an ablative paint, several coats, and everything seemed hunky dory. We then replaced the sole with teak and maple, and continued to upgrade her to our retirement standards, for grandchildren and ourselves. She is beautiful

This spring, we are on Long Island Sound, CT side, we noticed small spider cracks in several spots in the hull (they are darker green and easy to see). We have pictures. A fiberglass "expert" at the marina put a meter on her and found readings of 12 where the cracks were, (not through cracks, remember, spidery), and did percussion tests. Above waterline, the number was 0, at other spots below waterline, the number varied from the 12 at the cracks (there are four spots - all four where heavy ribs are - we can see it internally), and the percussions tests made the sounds of empty everywhere but where the cracks show.

In her previous life, she has circumnavigated the globe several times, and settled into happiness down in the Caribbean.

We are desperate for good knowledge, and really not looking for a beating - we love the boat (her name is Will You Go), which tells a lot, and have no intention of abandonment, but only want to proceed to have her live "forever." Although we are not experienced sailors, we have been around boats all our lives, and all eight children own some form of boat - power, freshwater, and racing.

Thank you for your help. I remain deeply indebted.

Maureen


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## Finallybuyingaboat (Aug 28, 2007)

My Shark 24 is 47 years old this year, built in 1963. She shows no sign of fiberglass degradation. Heck, my 5 year old son could still have this thing when he grows up. So, in response to your question,the old hulls may last forever!


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## maureeno123 (Sep 17, 2007)

*spider cracks in the hull*

Thank you for the encouragement. We bought a moisture meeting, GRP-33 and found the numbers to be between 8 - 15. We did not peg the meter at any point. We walked around our marina, where there are many, many boats on the hard, and measured all their hulls. We found many of them pegged the meter, a few of them were better than we were, but for the most part, we were kind of in the middle of the numbers. BUT, in capital letters, what about the spider cracks. Where do they come from. We are thinking in the fall, take off the ablative coats of paint, look at the hard coat, and go from there. The spider cracks are matching, port and starboard sides, and at the ribs. Thank you. Please, any info will rest my mind.


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## dsholler (May 30, 2001)

Maureeno.. 
I am no expert, but you say you can see this cracking from both the inside (near the ribs) and the outside? My first guess would go all the way back to the beginning of this thread, and guess that something is causing the hull to flex there. Hulls do flex, and I have seen boats that have developed stress crazing in the gelcoat from (for example) having the backstay overtightened. 

you mentioned all the stuff you did to the exterior to repair the blisters, did you do anything to the interior that might have changed the way the hull would flex? (move a bulkhead, for example? )


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## maureeno123 (Sep 17, 2007)

Thank yo for your reply. The good part of loving an old boat, and not wanting to lose it, is that you have to learn so much. To that end, I have been very serious about trying to understand.

We do not have matching spider cracks in the inside. We can climb into, open up drawers, etc, and check the inside.

The spider cracks seem to be just that, spider, where I cannot get a fingernail in them. 

They are mathching on both sides of the boat and seem to match stringer (is that the word for the ribs?) locations.

They seem to be where the re-faring (or whatever you call when you hand-sand, and re-fare) ws the heaviest.

The boat was not taken out of the water, with the exception of short-hauls, for the past twenty years or so, we soda-blasted, refared, repainted with the hard coat, repainted the hull, the hull having, I believe five coats of different color ablative paint. When it is hauled, it sits for a bit on its keel whilst they power clean the hull, required in Long island Sound now.

Thank you and kind regards,

Maureen


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## maureeno123 (Sep 17, 2007)

The mast was unstepped (? terminology) twice, to have the boat worked on, inside). We can check the backstay setting. Thank you for that thought. We were the ones that set it, and there is so much to think of and to do, might we have not done that one carefully enough. Again, thank you.

Maureen

ps - I will let you know the setting when I get down to the boat, and check it.


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