# Building or buying a 30ft cruiser



## William1989 (Sep 28, 2014)

Hi everyone,

So I am starting a new thread in light of the closing of my last one "Watkins 27 Thoughts and advice". Unfortunately the Watkins I was looking at was scraped and I wasn't able to get her.

On the bright side; I can now pursue a vessel that offers blue water sailing capability. However, limited funding is kind of a hurtle to get over when you are looking into the 30 +/- foot boats. So I wanted to see if anyone had any experience building from the Hartley or Bruce Roberts designs that are available from the respective sources; (hartleyandbrookes.com and Bruceroberts.com). I was specifically looking at Hartley's Akarana / Auckland 34 with bilge keels, or Bruce Roberts 31 and 345. any experienced folks who have built any of these designs in wood/ plywood/ fiberglass/ or any combination I would greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments. 

I would honestly love to find a Blue water capable 30 Ft cruiser that I could live aboard for $1000.00 ish that needed work… but from my searches I don't see that happening. If anyone has information to the contrary, or knows of some vessel that is in need of rescue from salvage which could be restored in the water please share. 


Cheers, 

William


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

If funds are limited, building a boat isn't the answer. Just check out the cost of a single winch for a 34 footer. And check out the cost of the diesel, and everything related to it from the tanks, exhaust, shaft, and prop. Mast and rigging? 

If you have a lot of money, a custom boat, built by someone else or by you, would be an option. Otherwise, not so much.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Why this thing for "Blue water"? 99% of them never leave the coast! Then, if you found such a boat.. I'd guess blue water is not the place for floating salvaged project boats.


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## capt jgwinks (Sep 24, 2013)

Been there, done that, didn't even get the t shirt. You can buy a used boat a hell of a lot cheaper than you can build one. And, the time required is astounding. Half the guys who start a project like that die before they can finish it. Don't do it.


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## William1989 (Sep 28, 2014)

That was kind of my thought. Though where I live materials for the hull will be rather cheap. additionally some components will be gathered ad time goes by, so avoiding one large purchase. The engine wouldn't be that much trouble as a used marine Yanmar shouldn't cost that much. but as for the other gear it will take maybe a few years to put it all together. Honestly the biggest deterrent for building one is getting it to the water, I currently live in Pennsylvania, not close to navigable water on the Delaware either. So maybe I will keep looking and saving until I come across a 30'ish boat alone the way. Any recommendations on what to look for? I want to stick around 27min-34max with a 10'beam minimum. I want it to be something relatively easy to handle but not too small for a decent voyage. maybe I am crazy thinking that exists?

Thanks for the response Siamese!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

A good-bones so-called 'blue water' project boat for $1000 is just not going to happen. If that's your budget it's not even realistic to consider a trans-oceanic cruising. The money drain doesn't stop when you launch the boat.. or even when you finally cast off.

Buy a neglected 20-something foot coastal boat, get sailing, learn how things really work and over time work up to considering something offshore perhaps.. Otherwise you're most likely to end up on the 'Boats lost or in danger' thread at some point.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

My Friend hank has an old 70s something German built 30ft (not sure of the name) It has a modified full keel with skeg rudder.


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## William1989 (Sep 28, 2014)

These responses only confirm my suspicions,

Well in any case thanks for the thoughts and info guys  Guess I will still look around until I find something.


Thanks!

William

P.S.
Denis030, would love to know more about your friends old boat.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I'll ask him. There is also an endeavor 32 at my club. owner still can't sell it last I heard he was asking 6k


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## William1989 (Sep 28, 2014)

ok wow that could be in my range too, and you aren't that too far away if this is correct and you are in Bristol?


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## shananchie (Jan 29, 2014)

If all you can afford is $1,000, let me humbly suggest you need to find a job(s) to build a kitty. 

Bluewater sailing is not a poor person's sport. As someone suggested, your intended purchase price is less than the cost of a winch. Inevitably, you get what you pay for. What you will get for $1,000 is a disaster.

As someone who has rebuilt two boats, I will tell you that a $1,000 fixer-upper is a $25,000 boat if you aren't planning to drown yourself. You don't slap on some Rustoleum Marine paint, buy an old sail or two and head off to Tahiti. 

The purchase price is just the beginning. Rigging, engine repairs, sails, interior cushions, rotten bulkheads, a new head, new exhaust, stuffing box hoses, rudder repairs, running rigging, a dodger and more.

You don't do that stuff with change out of your pocket. That's real money on any size of sailboat.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

yes. I'll talk to Rob and Hank about their boats. I'm away for a week.
I don't expect my boat to sell until spring if at all.

my bad it was 8k Endeavour 32 Sailboat


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

Dear William1989,
I am currently approaching finishing our boat. What I have discovered is Zeno’s Paradox and the people who recommend not fixing or buying a derelict are much much wiser than I. I purchased a Nor'sea 27 with the interior bulkheads, cabinets and lazarettes completed. I looked at her and thought, a few thousand, a few months and we will be sailing. I think I'm approaching 2, maybe 3 years and $10 grand or is it $12? Had I bought a finished boat for a few dollars more we could be sailing instead of worrying about the angle to mount the winch, cringing as one is about to drill a 2 inch hole below the water line, and the list goes on and on. My advice, take the time you would have spent working on the boat and go get a part time job, put that money in the kitty. If one doesn't have the discipline to save for one's boat I doubt one would have the discipline to complete the restoration of a project boat.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Captainmeme said:


> Dear William1989,
> I am currently approaching finishing our boat. What I have discovered is Zeno's Paradox and the people who recommend not fixing or buying a derelict are much much wiser than I. I purchased a Nor'sea 27 with the interior bulkheads, cabinets and lazarettes completed. I looked at her and thought, a few thousand, a few months and we will be sailing. I think I'm approaching 2, maybe 3 years and $10 grand or is it $12? Had I bought a finished boat for a few dollars more we could be sailing instead of worrying about the angle to mount the winch, cringing as one is about to drill a 2 inch hole below the water line, and the list goes on and on. My advice, take the time you would have spent working on the boat and go get a part time job, put that money in the kitty. If one doesn't have the discipline to save for one's boat I doubt one would have the discipline to complete the restoration of a project boat.


I wholeheartedly agree! I've done mostly the mechanical things on my boats she looks great but could be better. Nada lookers yet. thank goodness I don't "have" to sell her


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

if you have $1000 to buy, you cant afford to build, and you're not going anywhere bluewater.

On the other hand, there are any number of perfectly acceptable 26-30' tired coastal cruisers needing work for next to nothing. damn near 1000 islands in the bahamas alone. spend a week anchored off each, and you have cruised for 20 years, without ever needing a bluewater boat.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

William1989 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> So I am starting a new thread in light of the closing of my last one "Watkins 27 Thoughts and advice". Unfortunately the Watkins I was looking at was scraped and I wasn't able to get her.
> 
> ...


As others have said, $1000 for a blue water boat ain't going to happen. The boat you had your heart on, you believed was blue water capable...turns out it wasn't even river capable as it was scrapped before you could buy it. My personal feelings on this....a 30 footer that has the guts and pedigree to cross oceans is going to cost you WAY more money than you think.
I've got a pretty decent 34' Catalina in nice shape that I paid $40k for a few years ago. It was built to be a coastal cruiser, not cross oceans.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

For what it's worth, the best deals I have seen on boats always seems to be in the advertisements at the back of local "give away" sailing magazines such as Latitude 38, Southwinds, et al. I have also seen some very good possibilities in the advertisements in "Good Old Boat", many placed by aging sailors that have bought and refurbished an older, or sometimes, much older, boat but for which there isn't much of a market, e.g. '60's era boats, even though many of their sister-ships have "gone the distance".


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## scubadoo (Apr 5, 2014)

Check out "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" by Don Casey. It may be the best $8 you'll ever spend at this point in your adventure.

It mainly focuses on fiberglass sailboats from '65 to '97. 

Also check out a site called "The Frugal Mariner". Lots of good information on finding used gear in serviceable condition.


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## rmw2007 (Feb 7, 2012)

it takes a very long time to build a 30 footer with no money, have you checked out any of those donate a boat places, it's possible you could find a reasonable project there
Ross


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm afraid we have run off another newbie with dreams of sailing across oceans. A shame since he shouldn't give up his dreams. He just needed a reality check about the true cost of an actual blue water boat. 

Yes, under the right conditions and with a good crew, my Catalina could do it, but it wasn't designed for ocean travel and when the s..t hits the fan out in the middle of the ocean, I want to be in a boat built from the keel up to be a blue water boat.


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## William1989 (Sep 28, 2014)

Ok wow,

Thank you everyone, for posting and giving me your thoughts and concerns. A lot to go over and think about. Actually mulling it over and deciding what to do at this point. 
No worries Chuck53, haven't given up yet  . Though, after reading only half of what everyone has posted I do think looking for a sailboat that is in need of refurbishment, or mostly ready to go is a better option for me than building. 
I honestly don't mind if it takes me a few years to refurbish or build one, gives me something to do. I have looked around a bit and think I will check out the resources which SailNet members have kindly posted to me. I also opened up to coastal cruisers as often mentioned a great way to start and learn.

Thanks again everyone!


Cheers,

William


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

William, my friend Hank would consider selling his boat for 5/6,000, when i get back from my trip i'll take some photos.


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## Dirtyfloats (Apr 21, 2014)

Dont be discouraged by people here.

If you want to build, or refurbish a boat, just go for it.

Most people dont take chances for fear of failure. thats their problem not yours.
you get one shot at this life thing, dont miss it.

P.S. if you wanna build something, check out brent swain, and his origami steel construction. I pulled my hull together in about 4 days of work...


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## William1989 (Sep 28, 2014)

@Denise030,

Thank you, I am certainly considering and would love to see the pictures (no rush, whenever you get a chance). Surprisingly there are a lot of 30ish footers in that price range, Definitely want to see your friends.

@DirtyFloats,

Thank you for your post, nice to see someone who isn't scared to try something new and share their experiences. And thank you for the link!


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

I agree with the folks who posted who posted so far - a do-upper often takes more time and money that a boat in fair shape.

One option which has not been mentioned it to "walk the docks". Sailboats - some wrecks, some in fair condition - are often left unattended for years in slips; sometimes the owner forgets to pay slip fees, then the harbormaster is desperate to get rid of them; other times age/illness prevents the owner from realising their dreams. It sounds great but such owners often overestimate the value of their boats, but if you build a network of local harbormasters you never know. A friend got a Cal 36 for $500; it had sunk and been refloated, so the electrics were shot, but the are slowly doing it up; it is a great boat. 

Miracles do happen, but it takes a lot of persistence and hard work to be in the right place at the right time!

Good luck.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Dirtyfloats said:


> .....
> P.S. if you wanna build something, check out brent swain, and his origami steel construction. I pulled my hull together in about 4 days of work...





William1989 said:


> @DirtyFloats,
> 
> Thank you for your post, nice to see someone who isn't scared to try something new and share their experiences. And thank you for the link!


William.. please keep in mind that the hull of a boat, no matter what form it takes or how much (or how little) time that part takes to put together, it's just pouring the foundation for the house. Maybe 10%, if that, of the overall cost of putting the boat in the water, finished and fully outfitted.

Nobody wants to step on your dream. Boats have been built from the keel up, lots of them, but I'm betting that a goodly percentage of even those who finished the project in style would not do it again.

In the meantime someone who's bought a decent boat up front has been sailing and learning on the water for 3, 4, 10, 20 years.. It's all about the mind set. Others who have built boats sell them soon after and maybe do start another - they probably aren't sailors and it's the projects that get their juices flowing.

The trick is figuring out which of those types of people you truly are.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

Look at how many boats that were bought as kits in the 70s and 80s are still unfinished you can find hulls from that era that are unfinished still. that shows you how much work just fitting out the boat is not even building hull and deck. 

Buy a used boat in decent condition and you will still end up spending at least a year refitting things the way you want for blue water. Also i would increase your budget.

A good blue water boat you can buy cheaply is an allied sea wind, the mk1 can be purchased for between 10 and 20 grand. You will want to buy one that is as close to what you want as you can find because its more economical to pay a discounted rate for gear at the time of purchase than pay full price afterwards.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

A lot will depend on how 'blue water' you think you need. I bet most good vessels can handle more than you can. After testing self, lots of time to move up. Building or major refurbish is more work than most can wrap their heads around but it's the only rush for some.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

William, where do you live? How much sailing experience do you have? Do you really have your heart set on "blue water", or is that just synonymous with safe for you? Is it just you or you and a family? What made you pick the 30+' mark?

We bought our 31' from a bank after she had been repossessed. I looked at her and knew she needed lots of elbow grease, but was in decent shape under all the clutter and dirt. The surveyor agreed with me, guys at the marina who sold her (who had to move her 2 hours to get her to the marina after the repossession) agreed too. Everything looked really good! We prepared to sail her from Deltaville, VA to the NJ coast. Hired a captain for the first leg to get her up to Annapolis so I could take over from there (that was cheaper than anything else I could come up with, believe it or not). The captain motored over 3 days (1 day he was bogged down due to 30+ knot winds on the nose), with everything working perfectly. Less than 5 miles from the point where I was supposed to take over, the damping plate in the engine exploded. It took out our starter, damaged the rear seal on the engine, and caused other damage, too. We had to be towed to a marina for the repair and were out of the water for 4.5 months. The total cost of the repair exceeded what we paid for the boat. Now, granted, I could have done the work myself (maybe) and saved some money (maybe), but still, stuff happens. All the time. Especially on an older but new-to-you boat. And it can be expensive.

I wish I could say that I'm the exception and not the rule, but that's just not the case. Look at MedSailor's thread(s) about his new-to-him boat. And there are others. So, be careful what you step into, it can wind up being a lot more expensive than you might think.

To be clear, I'm not saying not to go buy a boat (nor am I suggesting you shouldn't build one, though that's an even more expensive prospect, IMHO). I'm just saying to think carefully about the "what if's". If something like my experience, or Med's, happens to you, what will you do? If you have a plan, and are OK with the ramifications of that plan, then go for it. But if the fecal matter hitting the fan means you'd be stuck with an albatross and no way to get rid of her, I'd think twice before making the jump. There ARE slightly smaller, less expensive coastal cruisers out there. A 25-27' Catalina can be had for within your price range, for example. She won't be as spacious, nor as seaworthy as the bluewater boat you've discussed, but since most of us lead "normal" lives and are tied close to the coast most of the time, the coastal cruisers may be perfectly fine in the end.

I'm in the Philly area, and we keep our boat on Barnegat Bay in NJ. If you'd like, and if the deal with Denise's friend doesn't work out, I'll keep an eye out for other boats in our marina and other marinas I'll be visiting. It is amazing to me how many boaters still don't use the Internet for advertising their boats.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

BTW, have you seen:
free 23 foot sailboat North American

or

Pearson 30 Sailboat, $7500/obo, $20,000 improvements-receipts provided


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## acem (Aug 19, 2014)

Try a smaller boat first. That is what i am doing. I bought a nice Catalina 22 with a trailer for $1500. Of course we have spent more on it now. If you keep looking around you will find something. 

I will buy a bigger boat later. We are learning to sail and it is alot of fun. 

Thx-Ace


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

my friend Hanks German boat. 








And the Endeavor 32 for 8k









Or... a newly painted freighter!  (was just going by )


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

You know, we haven't heard from the OP in a week.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

doesn't matter to me. others read the threads too.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

deniseO30 said:


> doesn't matter to me. others read the threads too.


I agree that others are reading the thread.

My point...we're trying to help a guy who may not even be following this thread anymore.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

chuck53 said:


> ....my point...we're trying to help a guy who may not even be following this thread anymore.


Hard to believe anyone could have a life away from SN!!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

there are hundreds of posts from OPs just like that chuck. it took me less then a min to post the pics so it's no big deal either way.


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

chuck53 said:


> I agree that others are reading the thread.
> 
> My point...we're trying to help a guy who may not even be following this thread anymore.


It's ours now! Muahahahah!!! *running off with thread, unraveling the sweater*


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I was talking with the guy that owns the E32. he really wants to unload it.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Is that the same one that is on Craigslist Denise?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

yes it is Jim!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Hmmmmm, took my stepdad 30 yrs to build his Bill Garden designed plywood boat. Started at age 60, now is dang near 90, has sailed it maybe 5-10 days over the last 3-4 yrs since it was finished. Last two it has been on a trailer back in his side yard.......

Meanwhile, I bought a boat for 20K. After sails, new interior and a few other odds and ends.....I am into it for 60K or so. Not sure what my step dad is into his boat, besides LOTS of time when he could have been sailing etc........

Then again, for some, it is the smell of the wood, or possibly the smell of the iron that has been welded that makes them live. The sailing/motoring the boat is not the real reason for doing what they are doing.

Up the budget, get a loan........1000 is not going to do it. 

I've built two boats too as a teen, took 2 yrs for a basic 8' pram, another 2-3 yrs for a 12' V bottom boat. The 21' boat CB style trailer sailor took my step dad about 3 yrs also.....

Marty


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## William1989 (Sep 28, 2014)

Hey everyone,

Just want to say thank you to you all for the comments and thoughts on this topic. Special thanks to those of you who posted. I had computer issues and a serious work spell for a while (long while) and finally got them sorted and all. 

Denise,
Thanks for the info and the pics on your friends boat… I am kind of confused on the contact thing for Sail net, tried sending you a message before this all happened to me, but I guess they didn't go through. will try again.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

private message, I'll send you one! I "lost" the a possible sale on my boat.. seems that a $60 vhf antenna needing to be installed after the mast is down and up again was too much....


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## William1989 (Sep 28, 2014)

OK, need to do this for 15 posts. sorry guys and girls. but rules are rules… I guess >>


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I've a few posts behind me Wiliam.. start posting Sir! 

talky talk!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

My club is quite desolate this time of the year


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

William1989 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> So I am starting a new thread in light of the closing of my last one "Watkins 27 Thoughts and advice". Unfortunately the Watkins I was looking at was scraped and I wasn't able to get her.
> 
> ...


patience and keep an eye on craigslist.

also, aboat bluewater capable: there is a thread on here about that, i believe. less exensive boats that are bluewater capable, even if not built with that purpose in mind. surf the web a bit. there are lists of 'coastal cruisers' that have even circumnavigated. you might be surprised what you find out.

Denise, is that the same boat you were telling me about when i was still thinking about that free boat, last year?


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Walk the docks - speak to harbormasters. Boats are often left unused in a marina for years - even decades. Often harbormasters (and owners) are more than happy to unload them at very low prices - but (as has been discussed previously) these are often serious project boats. However, if you are looking for a bluewater-quality and design hull for a thousand of so and are ready to rebuild, this may work.

In addition to the Marinas, near us are long-term storage facilities on the hard. Often up rivers or away from navigable waters, these are sad sights for sailboat lovers - rows of sailboats on the hard, untouched for years - but can be gold for folks like you. The one I visited sells off unclaimed boats a couple of times a year for basically their scrap value.

There is probably the right boat out there for you, but you'll need to look at a lot of cr*p to find the jewel....

Good luck.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

captain jack said:


> patience and keep an eye on craigslist.
> 
> also, aboat bluewater capable: there is a thread on here about that, i believe. less exensive boats that are bluewater capable, even if not built with that purpose in mind. surf the web a bit. there are lists of 'coastal cruisers' that have even circumnavigated. you might be surprised what you find out.
> ...


 SailNet Offshore-Cruising-Boat thread ** Be Aware: highly-opinionated, at-times-rancorous, entertaining, informative time-sink 

Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising

Good Luck and happy hunting!


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> SailNet Offshore-Cruising-Boat thread ** Be Aware: highly-opinionated, at-times-rancorous, entertaining, informative time-sink


that's pretty much the case in any thread where there is the possibility of more than one opinion:laugher


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

ziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing!


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## William1989 (Sep 28, 2014)

Still here and still reading the comments.

All very helpful, though at the moment trying to find a new job soooooo. kind of have sailing plans on the back burner. Thanks to everyone who has been posting and sharing their advice.

Cheers.


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