# Are we elitists?



## FormerAdministrator (Jan 10, 2000)

Our system sends out reminder notices to people who joined Sailnet but have not visited the site for 90 days.

Today I received this response to one of those reminders...

I removed their name to protect their identity.

Perhaps we should have a welcoming committee because we certainly want to make everyone feel welcome here regardless of their level of knowledge, sailing experience, etc.

I DO NOT think this person is being overly sensitive at all and take his observations very seriously.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hello,

I am going to take a chance and reply to this reminder. I'm not sure if this is an automated message.

I have left SailNet primarily because not one person welcomed me to the community when I introduced myself. I tried and tried to welcome others who were new and received a few nice responses. However, I found out that the rest of this particular community are not very welcoming to folks who are new nor are they very friendly. It appeared to me that unless you are a liveaboard circumnavigator, you aren't worth the time and effort. That said, I think there is a lot of good information at your site but I just could not continue going to such an unfriendly place.

Regards ~ xxxxx (xxxxxx)


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## BethHuntsberry (Jan 8, 2013)

I am brand new to SailNet When I introduced myself I had several people immediately respond with a welcome message. I haven't found this to be an unfriendly place at all. Did their introductory post get lost somehow?


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## aeaston (Aug 5, 2011)

I never bothered with an introductory thread myself (I don't think?), though to be honest, I'm more of a listener, and generally speak up if something is of particular interest to me.

Any time I've needed any sort of response, I've recieved it, and very promptly and politely as well. I don't think you're (we're) elitists.


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## Randypa28 (Apr 24, 2008)

Gosh, I've been lurking around since 2008 and primarily come here to get info and see what others are doing with their boats. I've laughed out loud at some posts and not agreed with others but never got an unfriendly feel from the place. Obviously I don't post much so maybe I'm not the correct demographic, but I like SailNet.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Admin, what was the nature of their introduction? What forum did they use and how was it worded? I would be very surprised if they were completely ignored here.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Sounds to me like someone with thin skin. This forum is a lot more friendly than some of the others that I frequent. Not the friendliest of them all, but way, WAAAY far from being what I would call "unfriendly."

The fact is that a lot of people come on here who have a very romantic notion of buying a boat and sailing off into the sunset--everything being easy, cheap, wonderful, and safe. Sometimes those people get annoyed and defensive, and accuse others of trying to "kill their dreams" or "burst their bubble" when they are offered a more realistic look at what it is like, and what is involved. I have to wonder if this person is one of those.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

There are many bloggers here with very strong opinions. On some threads I can almost predict who will blog next and what their response will be. But I am so impressed with the knowledge base, no other site compares. The strong opinions I think are just a side effect of a group who is so impassioned with the topic. It can be a bit intimidating but so is boat ownership, making a crossing, or sometimes just doing a day trip with fresh wind with friends and family aboard. To do those things; it requires some hutzpah and bringing that type of people together on one blog the end result is predictable, IMHO. While I appreciate everyone’s opinions, sometime I just think, “Meh, my way is better”. You need to be able to do that and just move on.


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## CarbonSink62 (Sep 29, 2011)

I joined about 15 months ago and now feel this is my second home. Almost everyone has been very welcoming; more than enough to make up for the few that were 'rough around the edges'.

To be fair, anyone here is going to give you a reality check if you're plans or dreams are way off the mark; we are quite free with our opinions.

I can believe that no one replied to his welcome message (might have been really good weather that day; you can guess where most of us were) but 'unfriendly'? I don't think so.

I haven't seen any 'big boat bias' or snark because the member only has a 15' daysailer. I've seen some snark (I've written some of it  ) but always in good fun.

I'd call this guy thin skinned, but that would be rude.

Ken


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

I am not surprised. Many come here to ask questions and are often treated as though they should already know or how dare you ask.....

Why should some one have to have "thick" skin to be here? 

I try to post where I can help, especially where I have had experience, if I cant I stay away and let others chime in. Others not so much, and to be quite frank are rude and obnoxious in their replies, here's a hint, their post counts are usually quite high...meaning they arent out sailing! 

What I find even more amusing about this post is you(admin) sound surprised. There have been quite a few long timers here that have made it quite vocal that this is not the friendly place it once was and have picked up and gone elsewhere.

Personally I like it here, contribute when and where I can and often use the forum for information which it is full of, good and bad!


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## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

Bahumbug! Go away bildge rat! :laugher

LOL just kidding, welcome to sailnet. I'm a relative newcomer myself.

As to the OP some people need a lesson in internet protocall, not everything is a snub & it can be difficult to discern sarcasm.



BethHuntsberry said:


> I am brand new to SailNet When I introduced myself I had several people immediately respond with a welcome message. I haven't found this to be an unfriendly place at all. Did their introductory post get lost somehow?


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I see several of the "old timers", myself included, welcome noobs to the forum so it's difficult to believe that someone didn't get any welcomes, although I'm sure that somehow it could have slipped through the cracks. What I don't understand is the attitude of "no one welcomed me so I'm leaving all the experience and knowledge that is here and going home". Just jump in and start asking questions, or answering them, and join the community. It's not a requirement to introduce yourself and I'm sure many skip it. This is a good heads up though for all of us to take a few seconds and welcome someone new instead of leaving it to "them".


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## hallucination (Jan 11, 2013)

I very new to the forum, I did enter a "hey I'm new post" Did have a couple of welcomes. All in all I have received some very good help with several issues. There has been some minor netiquette issues but nothing that bordered on elitist.

I have solved my:

Local vetted waypoint/navigation issue: garmin BlueChart with Activecaptain(don't trust for true NAV for CARIB) but awesome for the Chesapeake.

Found out a great way to have people on board that had issues with boarding a dingy (ladder design)

Need to check my engine curve to find my best cruising RPM to match my prop.

and many others.

Me thinks that the larger issue is not noticing there is a "new user" area. I just bought my first "big boat" and have found boatloads of help here.

rbt


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

It's good to see the feedback from relatively new users here.
Welcome, all of you.


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

I'm a new(er) member and haven't found the place unfreindly at all. I stay away from the politics/gun posts, things may get more heated in there - but for the most part I find a ton of info on archived posts and if I ask a question I haven't seen I get responses very quickly and it is always great advice - even if they just put up a link to an older post.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I am one of those jerks who has been hanging around here for some time with a rather surprising post count. 
I actually enjoy commenting to new users who have smaller boats or dinghies as I used to sail on such boats myself. A lot depends though on how an introductory post is phrased. If not enough information is given or the post is vague then how should I respond or should I even respond at all? Sometimes knowing when NOT to post is the better part of valor. To that end I ask the admin or OP of this thread to supply us with this initial post with the names changed or hidden - to protect the innocent.

There is also a thing called a 'bell curve' which describes a lot of things in our human world. Many of us fall under the median of the bell curve and some of us are enigmas and fall under the very thin lines at the edges. Not everyone will get the welcome mat rolled out for them and some people just cannot be satisfied, no matter how hard one tries. Without seeing the initial introductory post and how it is worded can I really comment on whether this 'community' missed out on a warm welcome or if that initial post was full of attitude or vagueness.


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## Atlas (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm new to Sailnet myself, and I had been a bit hesitant to join at first as I don't actually own a boat, and also I'm from India, which never features very high on cruising plans of most boaters. Still, I didn't face any snobbery and was never made to feel out of place.

Did Mr XXXXX expect do be given the keys to the city and a welcome party? I can't believe anyone can be so thin skinned as to be so upset about an ignored thread as to get up and go off in a huff!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Cruiser2B said:


> I try to post where I can help, especially where I have had experience, if I cant I stay away and let others chime in. Others not so much, and to be quite frank are rude and obnoxious in their replies, here's a hint, their post counts are usually quite high...meaning they arent out sailing!
> 
> !


I can't speak for others here, but my post count may be higher, and my post frequency increases at this time of year, precisely because Cruiser2B is exactly right:
I am not out sailing.
But he is not right for the reason he may think.
I'm not sailing because I can't.
Here's a hint- the water is simply too hard to float a boat.


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## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

Surprizes me as I always get on welcomes, as it's a free post! How else will I ever catch up?...Dale


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## KnottyGurl (Feb 8, 2011)

I can say from experience there are some fantastic people here, I met a few personally and the information found here and first hand knowledge is a great resource.
Welcoming new people is always on a new posters thread some where on the first page.
Sure there are a few grumpy ol bazturds, but there every where even in the grocery store complaining they have to put a quarter in the lock to get a cart.
But if i missed ya, then Welcome to sailnet, home of the elitists, where were all just regular folk


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

An interesting question.

I tend to ignore the Introduce Yourself threads. I've posted several welcome notes, but those have generally been in other threads when I've seen that the new poster has recently joined. I could certainly do a better job of greeting folks.

That said, I think that anyone joining a web community and expecting a welcoming committee probably has unrealistic expectations.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I would think that most browse titles of threads that interest them, not all of them. Some read, some reply. Is it elitist to not read every single Intro post? I don't think so. 

Would a new poster assume that everyone read their post and decided not to welcome them? That's narcissistic.

Come to think of it, would you walk into a bar and expect all the customers to welcome you? We don't work here.


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## hallucination (Jan 11, 2013)

+10 on staying away from non sailing issues. My wife always told me...stay away from politics,religion and BJs while having sociable conversations. teflon advice!

Pretty wild seeing +1000 posters, yet 5000+ posters. I would expect that there are many answers here...OBTW....meaning of everything=42. Which is the name of a boat that I did not run into, mine is called "hallucinations".

I have no issue at all with someone saying "RTFM page 5!". I'm happy, I'll look at page 4 and 6 while I'm there.

Look forward to not running into anyone in the chesapeake/BVI/etc. but would enjoy chatting.

rbt


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

BethHuntsberry said:


> I am brand new to SailNet When I introduced myself I had several people immediately respond with a welcome message. I haven't found this to be an unfriendly place at all. Did their introductory post get lost somehow?


Because you first name is Beth, that is why.


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## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

Get a hevier boat... 
:laugher



bljones said:


> I can't speak for others here, but my post count may be higher, and my post frequency increases at this time of year, precisely because Cruiser2B is exactly right:
> I am not out sailing.
> But he is not right for the reason he may think.
> I'm not sailing because I can't.
> Here's a hint- the water is simply too hard to float a boat.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

kivalo said:


> get a hevier boat...
> :laugher


lol.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think the 'introduce yourself' forum is just that, a place to make yourself known to the members, and a well written one can let us know what your circumstance is (old timer/new sailor/wannabe/curious/ etc) what boat you own if you do, just some general info so that when you do ask a question elsewhere, there's somewhere to go to get an idea of where you're coming from as a new member.

If someone answers such a post with a 'who cares?' (note - never happened as far as I know) well THAT would be unfriendly.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

I think the respondent was being overly sensitive. I said it so the administrators don't have to.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm elitist and dislike anything new. If you aren't still in the womb, haven't circumnavigated in a canoe you built yourself, equipped only with granite counters and the guns you manage to conceal about your person, then you aren't worthy of a response.

Or something like that anyway


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

They should have seen this forum before the exorcism, this is the kinder, gentler Sailnet, altho it does hurt my feelings when you elitists ignore me.
Those with the highest post count should be on the new "Welcome Wagon".


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

capttb said:


> They should have seen this forum before the exorcism, this is the kinder, gentler Sailnet, altho it does hurt my feelings when you elitists ignore me.


Excorcism. Heh-heh.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> would you walk into a bar and expect all the customers to welcome you? We don't work here.


Hey Norm!  Cheers!


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

The ocean can chew you up and spit you out in a heartbeaat.............................I can't think of any thing to follow that up with.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Well, I never posted in introduction, and never expected a formal welcome mat either. I'm here out of cruising and maintenance interest mostly, have no political, religious, demo/repub, gun totin, beer brewin interest. So I watch n read mostly, largely keep to myself, jump in when I feel I can contribute from experience, share a little bit o Canadian humor - eh - and hope everyone here is getting the value I am enjoying.

Sorry the OP is offended. Doubt SN or any individual singled him/her out to ignore. Learned a long time ago to grow a thick skin and let all the BS (real or perceived) go.

There is so much value to SN for beginners, armchair dreamers, coasters, world girlding cruisers living their (and some of our) dreams, and I bet that includes those that used to sail, can't anymore but are happy to stay connected to a huge part of their life. SAIL ON!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

^^^^^^^this!!!


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## RunningRabbit (Dec 7, 2012)

I am relatively new to this forum. Overall, I don't think this forum is unfriendly.

A common problem with internet forums and email is the inability of readers to sense lighthearted jest rather than malicious sarcasm since the benefit of tone of voice and body language of the author are absent. Anyone who gets offended is then belittled as thin-skinned. But some posters are simply snarky bullies and their sarcasm is not gentle teasing lost in translation. I think forums, as with most social situations, would benefit from the Thumper Rule: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. But some people are just curmudgeons and have to piss on everyone else's fun. I'd be sad for them, but I'm too busy living my life.

I joined this forum in part because some other forums (which shall remain nameless...but are probably easy to discern) are overwhelmed by snarky armchair sailors who flame most anyone who dares ask a question. Apparently, the very asking is itself evidence one is either an ignorant newbie, failed to research the issue sufficiently, is lazy, or some combination thereof. They are sometimes correct, but often not. I generally just don't bother asking any questions, though I have many. I'll lurk, read my books by Nigel Calder and others, and ask friends in person. (I do HAVE to get to 10 posts here, though, so that I can see links in peoples' signatures, etc...)

In reading a thread I prefer to just read each poster's personal recommendation/opinion/experience and weigh them myself rather than read a back-and-forth about why one poster is wrong or one's own view is superior. (I also tend to just skip over the posts written entirely in pirate; sorry.) A thread here on how to get started with fiberglass included a lot of chatter about the price of epoxy here versus there and who didn't do their math right. No one gets any "points" for being right or showing someone else up (or do they? did I miss that?! I want points!), but it makes threads far lengthier and IMO less useful. In contrast, a thread on 2012 costs for cruising the Caribbean had many differing opinions and experiences without a "you're wrong, I'm right" tiff developing, and gently gave some needed constructive criticism to the OP about the need for more detail in their query.

I fully appreciate the scorn for folks who post "Hey, I want to live aboard and sail around the world. Please tell me what boat to buy and provide a list of needed equipment." The person may be a lazy jerk trying to make folks here do his research for him, or he may just be too green to know he's asked an annoying question. Being a peaceable type, I'd just ignore the post or perhaps be kind enough to provide a couple links to useful books to get started. Others might flame him. I don't know which is right or wrong, but I'd rather be in a forum where folks err to the side of being kind and giving the benefit of the doubt.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

RunningRabbit said:


> A thread here on how to get started with fiberglass included a lot of chatter about the price of epoxy here versus there and who didn't do their math right.


Guilty.
Not because of any desire to score points, but to provide useful information. You're right, though, it sidetracked the thread and added little to the conversation.


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## ShoalFinder (May 18, 2012)

As a new member myself I have always been made to feel welcome. Sailing occurs on many levels, from sport to lifestyle to profession. It only stands to reason that the heaviest of posters on this site tend to be the people who are most serious about sailing. There is some truth in the respondant's letter that the "liveaboard circumnavigators" tend to overshadow the casual sailors, but is this unexpected? They experience sailing on very different level than I do, so I expect their perspective to be different from mine. It is up to each of us to determine what is and is not applicable to our own goals and needs.

I think people forget that it is okay to disagree. It is also very easy to shift between humor and snark, but very difficult for a reader who does not know you to tell the difference. Is there some bit of elitism on here? Yes, there is. That is just a statement of my own opinion from my own perspective. But I came to sailing believing that everyone who sailed was Thurston Howell III. While there are some Thurstons about, the vast majority are much closer to Jimmy Buffett. We also have to realize that while Thurston may be irritating at times, Thurston types bring a perspective and experiences that are often very valuable. In our lives we deal with elitism and snobbery. Most people learn how to listen to what is said while ignoring how it is said, somewhere along the way.

SailNet is a tremendous resource for both information and entertainment for me. Any friction on this site pales in comparison to the sites for other activities I am involved with.


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## Capt. Gary Randall (Jun 1, 2012)

I must say that I have thoroughly enjoyed SailNet.
It is very informative and I've met a lot of great people.
There have been times when I laughed so hard my stomach hurt from the humor in some of these posts as well as chat.
I'm definitely looking forward to meeting some of the people who I've chatted with or read their posts, in the near future. you never know...... Captg


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## probwhite (Nov 15, 2012)

Hmmm, I've been lurking for a month or two but finally started a couple of threads yesterday. I got nothing but good responses and good advice. I'd call that pretty friendly. Come to think of it, I never did introduce myself. Maybe I'll go do that now!


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> It only stands to reason that the heaviest of posters on this site tend to be the people who are most serious about sailing.


Or the most serious about posting anyway.


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## dnf777 (Jun 23, 2007)

I don't think so. All boards have some elitists who know everything and are superior to all other mere earthlings, but overall I've learned to just ignore them and carry on with the rest of us underlings who have a good, productive, camaraderie going on.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

dnf777 said:


> All boards have some elitists who know everything and are superior to all other mere earthlings...


Our most recent example of that attitude got hit with the ban stick


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

"*Ready about!... Hard alee!*!"

Down


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I came over from another sailing forum last year? That forum seemed to have some people at the helm who had exceedingly high opinions of themselves. This forum seems to have a lot of people who are not even very rude and obnoxious on the off-topic threads. There are many very knowledgeable people here who are willing to share knowledge and experience. The site is a gold mine of information for newbies and experienced sailors alike. If someone didn't get a Koombaya feeling and hearty welcome, well maybe they were expecting something that this place is not.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

As with any other Internet forum (of any size), the biggest problem I find is too many people making too many assumptions about other people without knowing the other person's situation. I've never really understood why some people online judge other's not by the value of their information, but on things like post counts, # of likes or "friends", and other irrelevant reasons.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I recall when a very high post member (like 20k ish) used to skewer newbies that asked routine questions without doing their own research and put a self written guide to SN in their signature line. 

The guide was pretty good. The approach was as elitist as they come. I haven't seen anything like it in a long time. I never did hear the story behind why he left, but it was crossed swords of some kind, I'm sure.

The fact that the entire bar doesn't come over and slap your back like you were a long lost friend is silly. You have to walk in and make friends. That's life. Even the funny example of Norm, in the sitcom Cheers, points out that it wasn't his first day in the bar.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Every noobie is welcomed warmly. DRFerron has done a good job of saying hello to all new members. I call B.S. on this complainer.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

rugosa said:


> ... share a little bit o *Canadian humor* -


Definition of oxymoron...


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

I am new and found just the opposite to be true...
It seems that most here are just working stiffs with modest boats that do their own work. That is far from elitist in my opinion and I check in every day.

Don't get me wrong...I love the "where have you sailed" type debates from the senior members that have serious miles under their belt but they have a fun way of abusing each other so those threads are always a good read. 

I don't have enough miles logged to participate in those threads but have enough time on the water and other maintenance experience to add to some conversations. For this year I will take much more than I add to this forum but that may change in the future.

Bill


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

Well....I just took a quick look at the "Introduce Yourself" forum, and quickly scrolled back through October (last 90 days)....and YES....there are quite a few posts with 0 replies.

I was surprised...I kinda figured there might be one or two....there were at least a dozen.

I can see how that might turn someone off....and if they browsed the forums and happened over a few of the more "energetic" threads going on, I can see how this person came away with that opinion.

I'm not saying I agree with it (the opinion).....I post on several forums and have been posting since usenet, so I've been around and have seen some truly tough rooms.....just like any other forum, you learn who the yo-yo's are and to ignore them.

So, in answer to the Admins OP....No, we're not elitists, mean and unwelcoming. Can't please everyone though; sorry he/she got miffed. Oh well.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Welcome earthlings (thats my favorite greeting one of our posters has and I always wanted to say it)

Sailnet is comprised of many different types types of people so it is to be expected that many different personalities may show through the postings. For the most part I have seen nothing but respect for the new poster as well as for each other. 

There are many different levels of experience on here and a treasure trove of information to me mined if the poster is willing to refine their questions and do research. SNers have the real world experience to go along with what you can read on the internet which can be inbvaluable to choosing products or getting started on boat projects. I marvel at the before and after pictures of many of the projects I have seen on here. I have followed expert advise ( I think) of some of the posters who have given time and selflessly
contributed their knowledge like Mainesails videos.

When I joined years ago ( before the exorcism) I looked at the posters with thousands of posts two ways...either they were bored or they had great knowledge and gave back. That hasnt changed as I have become them now. Sometimes I am grumpy, but most times I am giving. Thats real life isnt it? 

I joined back then the get some of that knowledge as well as maybe make some sailing friends in my area which is the Chesapeake. Sailnet has been a great common meeting ground for many of us in the Chesapeake. Because of it I have personally met over 70 boaters I would not have ever known. We have get togethers informally during the year as well as meet on the water sometimes for raft ups. Brcause my wife and I have gotten so much out of this it is our pleasure to host one of the formal get togethers every year in June at our club. It is one way my wife and I feel we can give back, just be getting faces together. It is remarkable to see the faces and laughing as people meet each other for the first time or see old friends. Through the years as I look at the people who come I see no elitists....just a group of sailors from all walks of life with boats of all types and sizes.

We also have met some of the SNers on our trips up north to Long sland sound and New England. They have been nothing but helpful and generous and have given us recomendations on eveything from anchorages to restuarants to offfering to take us for provisions. Where else could that happen.

Where else couldyou experience sailors from the Pacific Northwest, Canada, Great Lakes, North east, Chesapeake and Mid Adlantic, and Florida. The we have our travelers. Like Sequitor ( I want to be like him someday) and Killerney Sailor ( laid up right now. get well soon buddy). Only on the internet can you get this experience.

Your SN experience is controlled by you. It is what you put into it. If you are passive and stand there, the others will look like they are ignoring you as this poster did I think. You have to jump in and engage. When you do, MOST of your experience will be pleasent I assure you. Like life though it wont be 100% so you can expect that. 

Over all Sailnet has been good to me and I hope I have been able to contribute to making it better for others.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

I am new here and have not noticed elitism or unfriendliness. Seems as good as most internet forums and better than some


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Geeze, you can get a really enthusiastic welcome over on Sailing Anarchy....;-)


I think we do okay, but as many have said, we do better with an actual question rather than just, "Hi---please say hi back".


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

When I'm around, I try to check in on the intros, look for the 0 replies posts, and say hello. In fact, I've been labelled a "Walmart Greeter" by certain pompous chuckleheads in the past for doing so. I thought that was pretty funny, of course. Jealousy is always funny.

Anyway, saying hello is a great thing to do if you've got the time to hit those threads. Sometimes I've got the time, sometimes I don't.

BUT - to get bent because someone doesn't post on your intro thread when it's typically one of many on any given day is a little tender. I mean c'mon.

I say harden up, hit the sailing threads, and state your opinion - WHATEVER it may be. SN is a DISCUSSION forum. I don't think anyone should _ever_ feel the need to stay quiet because they think they don't have enough experience or knowledge to post. Just say what you think. You'll probably learn something. I do.

Okay, time to put on my little blue vest and go say hello. I mean - even pompous chuckleheads have learned (the hard way) that new members are the lifeblood of any forum. You should treat them as such, right?

Heh-heh.


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> The fact that the entire bar doesn't come over and slap your back like you were a long lost friend is silly. You have to walk in and make friends. That's life. Even the funny example of Norm, in the sitcom Cheers, points out that it wasn't his first day in the bar.


Indeed. I find this to be a helpful, friendly forum. And I did when I came here 5 years ago with questions about my first (and still only!) boat. But then I don't really need to be formally welcomed, initiated, etc. I was happy to lurk, get a feel for the place, ask questions, and get great answers.

But everyone has their own definition of "friendly". If someone needs the kind of friendly you might get from a small town in the South in order to hang, Sailnet, or for that matter most forums I've seen, might feel a little distant. You can't win them all.


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## Rezz (Oct 12, 2012)

Well, another newbie here. I joined this forum a few months ago and just passed my mandatory 10 posts to see signatures last week. I'm mostly a lurker, and have been visiting this site on and off for a couple years prior to becoming a member.

Compared to other forums, this one is quite tame. There's not a whole lot of craziness, and people are very helpful. From new questions (even the "I want to sail RTW in an iron bathtub and swimsuit - what else do I need?" threads) to technical discussions, for the most part people are met with informative replies. Of course, this may or may not apply to OT threads 

Even the chat room is nice and tame - I've been camped out in there for the past couple days and everyone has been quite pleasant. I've even found a few people in my area who sail. 

I wish I knew more about the poster who didn't get any replies, and if this was their first internet forum they have joined. I've definitely seen some more active forums, but few that are friendlier.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

Of course we are elitists. We are sailors, afterall, and fully aware that we are among the most intelligent and capable people in the world. 

Sailnet members are pretty good about keeping the snark to a minimum, although I have little to compare with. This is the only forum I frequent.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I come here to find answers, pay it forward by giving answers to those questions I can be reasonably sure are correct.
I've got the social graces of a stump and several thousand posts to prove it. 

If I was an elitist, I'd be too elite to answer this post


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Can't forget that the poster in question could be 11 years old, or could be lonely in a assisted living facility and looking for constant companionship. That's one of the downsides to Internet boards. You never really know, at first.

I wonder if there is any logic to eliminating the Intro forum? Encourage new members to jump in with both feet, the water is great!


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Minnewaska said:


> ...
> 
> I wonder if there is any logic to eliminating the Intro forum? Encourage new members to jump in with both feet, the water is great!


I see your point, but based on one person out of how many complaining? Granted, we don't know who just quietly goes away, but I'm not sure that getting rid of that area is the answer.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

If every member of this forum sent you a welcome note it would take you a year to read the thread (about 121000 registered members) and I personally would be astonished if you did. Or perhaps the OP would like to suggest which sector of the membership should be responsible for welcoming new members so we can cut the responses down to around 1000 .

I've been a member here for going on 10 years and have a relatively low post count compared to some, I contribute when I can, shut up when I can't and work quite hard at knowing the difference.

I won't welcome you here because I only really visit two boards and "Introduce Yourself" is not one of them. I'll welcome your advice if you have any to share and you're welcome to mine if it's of value to you.

If that doesn't work for you, have a nice day.


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## Silvio (Nov 10, 2010)

Are we elitist?

Have your people contact my people and see if I can schedule you for a thoughtful response, perhaps during mid morning massage.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

administrator said:


> Our system sends out reminder notices to people who joined Sailnet but have not visited the site for 90 days.
> 
> ...


If the system can send out an automatic reminder notice, can it also send out an automatic welcome notice? It's not the same as having whomever respond in the forum, but it might be something.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> ...I wonder if there is any logic to eliminating the Intro forum? Encourage new members to jump in with both feet, the water is great!


After seeing this thread I went looking for this "Intro Forum" and could not even find it! I still don't know where it is.

Just out of curiosity I counted how many General Interest forums there are, and there are 46! And that's not including the Intro Forum and any other ones that are hidden somewhere. [EDIT: I just realized that I can go up another level and found the Intro Forum, along with another 50 or so other "non-General-Interest" forums, and dozens upon dozens of sub-forums within those. I'm beginning to think that we may have more forums than sailors!]

I think there would be a lot of logic to eliminating several dozen of these forums. I've thought for awhile that this message area is way too fragmented. There have been times that I have posted very relevant questions that I wanted quick answers to in the appropriate sub-forum, and got zero replies. Then I would post the same question in the General Discussion section, and get dozens of replies within a day.

Take a quick look at the number of people viewing the various forums, and you can immediately see that there are maybe 5 forums that are active enough to stand on their own. Post on any of the others, and it's like shouting in an empty auditorium. It could be argued that you now have evidence that you lost this new member (and perhaps others) because he posted into one of these under-utilized forums. As a newbie, he probably didn't know any better.


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## shadowraiths (Nov 2, 2011)

DRFerron said:


> If the system can send out an automatic reminder notice, can it also send out an automatic welcome notice? It's not the same as having whomever respond in the forum, but it might be something.


It does. That is, it did when I joined.

As for the 'elitist' bit? Not sure what that's about. Though, I would venture to guess some people require more acknowledgement of their presence, than others. It's not a thin-skinned thing, imo. Rather, the needs of members just vary.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

This is one of the most open welcoming and balanced sites I have found. Yes there are some very snobby, one sided, ultra right wing sites, where only elitist, right wing, pro consumerism posts are allowed, and offering "out of the box thinking" style solutions to the not so rich can get you banned ( Cruisers forum, anything sailing .com, boat design.net, etc, etc) but this is anything but. There is a wide spectrum of philosophies and ways of thinking here with some brilliant postings. I don't know why I wasted so much time on those other sites, I wouldn't recommend anyone seeking solutions there, being as they are usually dominated by the hecklers veto, by people who don't have much in the way of experience or ideas.
No, you wont find many sites as open as this one.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Sorry Brent, I'm the one that banned you on Anything Sailing; that's not the way it happened.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Well over the years I've been a member of quite a few internet fora on various subjects, and this one has to be one of the friendliest and has one of the greatest degrees of expertise.

However I've also come to learn that on the internet, some people can be ruder than they would be otherwise. It's a well known feature of the internet, and of non-face to face communication in general. Shrug it off and don't worry about it.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Good point on the face-to-face aspect. If everyone responded as if they were face-to-face, a lot of the snarly behavior would cease.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

PBzeer said:


> Good point on the face-to-face aspect. If everyone responded as if they were face-to-face, a lot of the snarly behavior would cease.


Agreed!


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

chucklesR said:


> Sorry Brent, I'm the one that banned you on Anything Sailing; that's not the way it happened.


I challenged someone who suggested that the commercially made product was the only way to go, and ridiculed anyone building their own, far superior gear. I was banned, he wasn't. That's what happened , rendering the site totally useless for anyone seeking more affordable gear or "thinking outside the box" solutions. That individual continues to render that site useless, by overuse of his "Hecklers veto"

Friends have told me they totally agree with me on this point.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Brent Swain said:


> This is one of the most open welcoming and balanced sites I have found. Yes there are some very snobby, one sided, ultra right wing sites, where only elitist, right wing, pro consumerism posts are allowed, and offering "out of the box thinking" style solutions to the not so rich can get you banned ( Cruisers forum, anything sailing .com, boat design.net, etc, etc) but this is anything but. There is a wide spectrum of philosophies and ways of thinking here with some brilliant postings. I don't know why I wasted so much time on those other sites, I wouldn't recommend anyone seeking solutions there, being as they are usually dominated by the hecklers veto, by people who don't have much in the way of experience or ideas.
> No, you wont find many sites as open as this one.


Are you kidding me. I have not found that true at other forums such as Cruiser Forum and Anything Sailing forum at all. If you didnt fit in there instead of blaming other on those forums look in your full length mirror. You experience there may have been a political one.

There is no need to cast aspersions on the other forums as most of them are very informative and promote commradiere and sailing. Each forum has its own bend and personalitity.

One thing I like about SN is the ability to have a piece of the kingdom for the Chesapeake seperately. It enables us and enhances our ability to meet in person. Thats takes the SN experience to another level.

I post more on SN because I have more friends who I have met here and the Chesapeake region is strong here. There is room for us to have our little piece of the empire where we post where we are going for each weekend and share local experiences there. Other forums dont provide that.

A lot of us have met in person in the Destinations... Chesapeake "room" part of the forum and SN setup provides for that experience. It is easier to pass knowledge about marinas and such as well as help each other. It is easier for us to meet for raft ups, dinners, breakfasts, boat shows and rondevous. This allows the SN experience to be not just an Internet one but a personal one too. I see it with the LI sailors sometimes as well as the PN sailors too. It seems like our group here on the Chesapeake is very active and commited in terms of getting together and hanging out and like each others company. In this group ( Chesapeake) we have many personalities ( me included), some old timesers with many posts, some newbeeis. All are embraced. Hell we even have Restaurant spreadsheet where all of us put our opinions for cruising and traveling which is very impressive and extensive. We had a wonderfull photoshoot 4 years ago by one of us and the pictures were spectacular.

This is not meant as a snooty, competition or boasting, merely to explain what has happened in the Chesapeake region of Sailnet to make it a success and extended the Sailnet experience. A lot of the memebers in this region have taken a very active role in SN and in this area in terms of getting people together in meetings, raft ups, Rondevous, etc., legislative action, the restaurant spreadsheet, warnings to marineers etc. That commitment to actually do some of the organizing work has lead to the suceess as well as the amount of people we seem to get to participate. I dont want to mention names here for fear of leaving someone out so I wont. And people keep stepping up here. We also have two SN moderators here, but really most of the leading has been done by the individual members which is important ( No disrespect meant to Jeff and Donna).

So looking at the SNers I see here, I dont see any elitists, far from it.

Dave


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## shadowraiths (Nov 2, 2011)

MarkSF said:


> However I've also come to learn that on the internet, some people can be ruder than they would be otherwise. It's a well known feature of the internet, and of non-face to face communication in general. Shrug it off and don't worry about it.


Aka, The Online Disinhibition Effect.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Anything sailing is a consumerism " Go buy things at west marine " type solutions only, allowed. No innovation type solutions allowed.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

Brent Swain said:


> Anything sailing is a consumerism " Go buy things at west marine " type solutions only, allowed. No innovation type solutions allowed.


I have seen very little of that here for sure


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

I was never welcomed here but it is far from elitist.This is one of my favourite forums. Anything-Sailing is strictly Alex's fan club. He left here because he didn't get the recognition that he required. Too many one sided discussions over there. Now, I'll probably be banned from Anything-Sailing but I really don't care. I basically lost complete interest in that forum when Smack got kicked off. I didn't think that it was fair at the time.


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm thankful to have found this place. I got very few welcomes, but don't care. The information I've gleaned from this site is invaluable. I've learned tons and I've developed an almost fearful respect for the sport. That's a good thing. Just need to gain a little more confidence and experience. Just wish I would have started this endeavor a decade earlier.

Thank you Sailnet.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

My vote....we stick to talking about SN. As seems to be the overall consensus - it's a damn fine forum for sailors of all kinds.


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## blowinstink (Sep 3, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> My vote....we stick to talking about SN. As seems to be the overall consensus - it's a damn fine forum for sailors of all kinds.


You're such a sap.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I posted instructions on anything sailing on how to build sheet blocks for under $2 each, which are far stronger and more reliable than the moist expensive blocks on the market. For trying to help people out in that way ,I was vehemently attacked by those who told me that a block made of much lighter material was automatically much stronger if it had a commercial brand name on it. I was banned, but those attacking me for offering affordable solutions are still there, poisoning the site. Don't go there trying to help make boating more affordable for cruisers. That is not allowed there.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

Brent Swain said:


> I posted instructions on anything sailing on how to build sheet blocks for under $2 each, which are far stronger and more reliable than the moist expensive blocks on the market. For trying to help people out in that way ,I was vehemently attacked by those who told me that a block made of much lighter material was automatically much stronger if it had a commercial brand name on it. I was banned, but those attacking me for offering affordable solutions are still there, poisoning the site. Don't go there trying to help make boating more affordable for cruisers. That is not allowed there.


It is in the past....let it go


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

Ah, the light just clicked on, you folks are all a band of barred posters from other blogs. Kind of pirate like. Suddenly it ALL makes sense now.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

kellysails said:


> Ah, the light just clicked on, you folks are all a band of barred posters from other blogs. Kind of pirate like. Suddenly it ALL makes sense now.


Heh-heh. You have no idea how kind of right you are.

"The Elite". That's us!


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

This image comes to mind

Band of Barred Bloggers


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> ..Yes there are some very snobby, one sided, ultra right wing sites, .....


That's wearing your bias on your sleeve. Generally unwelcomed.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

RunningRabbit said:


> I am relatively new to this forum. Overall, I don't think this forum is unfriendly.
> 
> A common problem with internet forums and email is the inability of readers to sense lighthearted jest rather than malicious sarcasm since the benefit of tone of voice and body language of the author are absent. Anyone who gets offended is then belittled as thin-skinned. But some posters are simply snarky bullies and their sarcasm is not gentle teasing lost in translation. I think forums, as with most social situations, would benefit from the Thumper Rule: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. But some people are just curmudgeons and have to piss on everyone else's fun. I'd be sad for them, but I'm too busy living my life.
> 
> ...


I couldn't have said this any better. I'm new hear and don't post on any forums ever except here. Generally; people in forums are a lot more brave than in person. I'll leave it at that. Not much for words and ain't to quick witted; but i can take your anchor light out at 500 meters.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Silvio said:


> Are we elitist?
> 
> Have your people contact my people and see if I can schedule you for a thoughtful response, perhaps during mid morning massage.


I'm elitist- YOUR people have to call my people. My people don't call nobody.
In fact, I'm so elitist, my people may not even take your people's call.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Brent Swain said:


> Anything sailing is a consumerism " Go buy things at west marine " type solutions only, allowed. No innovation type solutions allowed.


Apparently you missed the boat building threads, the low-buck thread, the boat refit threads... Brent, having interacted with you here on sailnet and on AS I find you are far less combative here.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

kellysails said:


> Ah, the light just clicked on...


Bainbridge Island...isn't that where The Professor lives? He could make the lights go on with coconuts and some water from the lagoon.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

kellysails said:


> Ah, the light just clicked on, you folks are all a band of barred posters from other blogs. Kind of pirate like. Suddenly it ALL makes sense now.


True, and we be meeting at Bremerton on Memorial day weekend, seem to recall it being a pirate party at the ports of Bremerton and Port Orchard that weekend........yep, that is my story, and I is sticking to it...........will not disCUSS other sail forums, for fear of having to mention not being terminated.......in the meantime, need to go fetch Winston who is heckling Fatty for not being cute enough!LOLOLOL as one jabs at the lowly ugly head murderator.......:laugher:laugher

Marty


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

Band of Barred Bloggers


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I just want to thank Faster for editing Benesailor's post to reflect the quotation, I thought I'd had a stroke for a minute, I guess that's why moderators get the big bucks.


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## LessTacksing (Mar 17, 2009)

When I first posted here I believe one of my first greeters was smackdaddy. And I am still here appreciating the groups wisdom and sometimes the lack of wisdom.

David


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

capttb said:


> I just want to thank Faster for editing Benesailor's post to reflect the quotation, I thought I'd had a stroke for a minute, I guess that's why moderators get the big bucks.


I'll PM you my address for that cheque ... and you're welcome!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Another forum I post on require ALL new sr members to send ALL the other current sr members $25, $50 to murderators, and $100 to admin....nothing to supposid "good looking mods with ugly dogs!" So when some announce they are new SR members......well anyway.....kinda almost as bad as the SA welcome.......some are pretty good a Smart Asset answers too.

Marty


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

scratchee said:


> Bainbridge Island...isn't that where The Professor lives? He could make the lights go on with coconuts and some water from the lagoon.


Yes it is, damn, why couldn't it be Ginger or even MaryAnn, it had to be the geek.

And we have a Top Gun instructor, Cmdr Skerrett, yet no Kelly McGillis, go figure


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

... so it appears that everyone is being a bit more diligent in replying to Intro posts... good job, y'all!


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> My vote....we stick to talking about SN. As seems to be the overall consensus - it's a damn fine forum for sailors of all kinds.


Works for me (and I assume you) - because I banned you on AS too, and you and I both know why, and that it wasn't personal at all.

Ditto, by the way for Brent. 
You also know that here, and there, I've applauded you, appreciated your designs etc.

Mod's do what the consensus says, or the owner directs. I promised two years, I gave it. 
Nuff said, like Smacky says, this is SN, not elsewhere.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Cruiser2B said:


> Many come here to ask questions and are often treated as though they should already know or how dare you ask...


I don't read every single post, but I can honestly say that I have never seen this happen.

What I have seen, is that someone asks a very rudimentary question and they get the answer that if they had spent just a few seconds searching, then they could have found the answer for themselves. That's very different from "you should already know." And depending on how it is worded, it is not necessarily a rude answer, either. Basic forum etiquette dictates that you put in at least a bit of effort yourself, before you demand that others expend effort to answer your most simple of questions.

Then, too, I've seen people ask questions that don't really make sense, or are kind of off-the-wall (can my family of six and I comfortably sail around the world in our Macgregor 26?). These questions sometimes get a very blunt answer. That, too, is a completely different thing than "you should already know."

Again, this may not be the very most friendly forum that God or man has ever created, but is far from an unfriendly place.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chucklesR said:


> Works for me (and I assume you) - because I banned you on AS too, and you and I both know why, and that it wasn't personal at all.
> 
> Ditto, by the way for Brent.
> You also know that here, and there, I've applauded you, appreciated your designs etc.
> ...


Chuckles - no worries. I never blamed you. Seriously.

I had a good sense of what was going on at the time - and that there was very, very little truth behind it all. That much I know for certain. Anyway, it's history - and I have no intention of ever slogging through that history here on SN.

Things worked out in the end pretty much as I figured they would. Funny how that happens.

I'm glad you (and others) are back on SN. It's good to have you elitist bastards around. Heh-heh.

BTW - when are you gonna post some BFS in that sweet new Irwin of yours?


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## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

If you have to ask then you probable are. What's wrong with elitist they have nice boats and great yacht clubs. I live near elitapolis, sorry I meant to say Annapolis.


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## Magnolia (Dec 21, 2012)

I don't think that you are an elitist. I figure, that once I've come here and introduced myself, then it is up to me to jump in and get wet. So to speak. jmho


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

aeaston said:


> I never bothered with an introductory thread myself (I don't think?), though to be honest, I'm more of a listener, and generally speak up if something is of particular interest to me.
> 
> Any time I've needed any sort of response, I've recieved it, and very promptly and politely as well. I don't think you're (we're) elitists.


I am new and I jumped right in with a question.. got some very friendly advice so far too. Eventually I will meet everyone


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