# Boarding and rafting to stranger's boats.



## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

Had my boat tied up to a public dock over the weekend. Tied on Starboard, open water (with a lot of surge) on Port. We left the boat unattended for a while (no time limits, etc.). When we returned to the boat, from a distance, I thought I saw a guy jump on my boat, cross the cockpit to Port, then jump back to the dock on Starboard. As he walked toward me on the dock, I stopped him and said "Did I just see you on that boat (pointing to my boat)?" He said: "Yeah, (he pointed to another boat docking in a spot that just opened) we were going to raft up, but it didn't work out". I said "What the hell do you think you are doing jumping on someone else's boat?" He replied "Happens all the time." I said: "I strongly suggest you don't do it on THAT boat again!"
I have been involved in regattas, where, out of necessity, everyone is rafted up at the yacht club, and people come and go freely in the spirit of the event and YC environment. However, this was a public dock in the middle of a major metropolis (not even a marina). Had I been closer to the boat when I found him on it, he would have had a very unpleasant experience. It didn't even dawn on me until later that apparently, they were considering rafting up to my boat in major surge, without my permission. Had I found another boat rafted up to mine when I returned, well....I don't even want to think about it (I wouldn't let a friend raft up in that surge)!
How would you react in this situation? Am I overreacting, or did these guys have some brass?


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## acarter92 (Jan 17, 2012)

Well, from my experience with power boats you never raft or board without permission. I suppose some situations would be understandable, I don't think I would have let it ruin my day, but I don't think you were out of line...

Austin


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

This is something that I have always been uncertain of - rafting etiquette seems to vary immensely depending on county and region. I'm interested in people's opinions.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

I don't think your overreacting one bit.
I would never consider rafting w/o permission and someone present. I would have an issue if someone did it to me and I wasn't there.
Someone boarding w/o my permission would be delt w/ as an intruder.
Jim


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## b40Ibis (Apr 27, 2011)

From your post I suppose they were dropping someone off? Seems harmless but what if they banged up the side of your boat in the process?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Rafting is totally permitted/expected/at times required on most of our public docks. It's certainly considered courteous to ask permission if the owner's aboard, but in reality many of our public floats flat-out state rafting is to be expected.

We always fender outboard in expectation of possibly being rafted to while off on a shopping run.
No moorage fee discount for being three boats out either....

Here's the rafting we grew up with on BC's central coast!


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## sailak (Apr 15, 2007)

In our harbor you will be rafted too if on a transient float.


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## Bilgewater (Jul 17, 2008)

Faster has it right...at least out here. We just raft up and walk across the other boat. It's actually quite necessary in many cases and pretty much common. If someone is on board I will ask, otherwise I just put out some fenders, raft up securing to his cleats and run extra lines to the float. But around here, everyone usually has fenders out on both sides for others to raft up. If it's a pleasure vessel we usually walk across the bow but if it's a commercial vessel it usually doesn't matter too much.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I don't think it is a big deal at all. It was a public dock, if you were not comfortable with someone rafting up you could have found a spot to anchor and dingy in to the dock. Most public docks can get quite busy. It is a good plan to put out fenders (perhaps even with a board across them to give you better protection). My thought is what do you do to the rafted boat when you want to leave? You obviously can't just let the lines go. I imagine they are supposed to have a radio with them if everyone leaves the boat. Just another reason to avoid the situation. It is considered best practice if crossing the boat to do it on the Bow, as it invades the privacy the least. I read that somewhere, but I don't remember where. 

Now if they went down below while crossing your boat then I would have an issue.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

I don't mind at all if they know what they doing and no damage to my boat. In a pubic area, it is meant to share. If you fence off the first one, the second one may be even worse. Be nice and be kind will go long way. 

Once I was taking a live-on -board 5 day sailing course. We dropped the anchor. Our instructor was on the deck fenced of anyone attempt to drop anchor within the 200 meters of our boat. He was a big guy standing on the edge of the boat starring with his war face to anyone motoring close to our boat. I said to myself, I wound never do that to another human being whatever they are on. Hassling while sailing is not what I want to do. Let's share, so everyone will have fun and be happy.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

L124, was this at San Francisco’s Ferry building dock? If I understand the scenario correctly, the other boat was going to raft up on your boat, but opted instead to tie up to the dock itself when a space opened up and his crew who was on your boat to help in the rafting process was in the act of getting off your boat? Is there a sign on the dock prohibiting rafting? If not, there isn’t much you can do. A public dock implies an easement. Way back when Sam’s in Tiburon had only one “public” dock, we tied up the o’l 22. Ate brunch, then ran over to Safeway to buy some snacks. When we got back we found that a 40’ powerboat was rafted outboard of us and the sailboat ahead. We did not appreciate being used as a rafting cushion but couldn’t find the owner at Sam’s (so much for the “patrons only signage”.) We passed his mooring line around us and cleated him off the dock the best we could as we broke out of the nest. We rarely tie up on public docks anymore. Moreover, when we do, we tie a fender on the water side of our boat just in case. “A” dock at South Beach is a long walk to the Ferry Building, but I believe it is free parking too. Rafting etiquette dictates that crew crossing from an outboard boat pass in front of the mast and not cut through the cockpit.


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## Bilgewater (Jul 17, 2008)

miatapaul said:


> My thought is what do you do to the rafted boat when you want to leave? You obviously can't just let the lines go. I imagine they are supposed to have a radio with them if everyone leaves the boat.


We just swing the vessels together so your vessel becomes the outside vessel. Or sometimes we will run a long line from the bow or stern of the outside vessel and back and around to someone standing on the float. Then we will sneak out and raft ahead. Then properly re-secure the other boat and head off. Quite often there are people around the help and pretty much everyone would know how to do this. You let the currents and wind work in your favour when doing this.

Edit: By the way, most people that use govt docks in this manner have phone numbers displayed so we would call that number and ask if they can help us get out. Otherwise the Wharfinger would be available during regular hours.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Bilgewater said:


> We just swing the vessels together so your vessel becomes the outside vessel. Or sometimes we will run a long line from the bow or stern of the outside vessel and back and around to someone standing on the float. Then we will sneak out and raft ahead. Then properly re-secure the other boat and head off. Quite often there are people around the help and pretty much everyone would know how to do this. You let the currents and wind work in your favour when doing this.
> 
> Edit: By the way, most people that use govt docks in this manner have phone numbers displayed so we would call that number and ask if they can help us get out. Otherwise the Wharfinger would be available during regular hours.


Thanks, I had to look up Warfinger, must be a west coast thing!


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

Rafting is to be expected power or sail. If there was a major surge then I would expect other to use some sense but its nothing to get yourself into a lather over. As someone else said if you dont want anyone to raft to you then dont use the public dock.


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## IslanderGuy (Apr 26, 2008)

Thanks for asking this question, as it's something I wondered about. Rafting seems fairly rare in Washington State, where I sail most, except on very busy weekends, then you are usually warned when you dock. At least that's been my experience.

This spring we sailed up the west coast of Vancouver Island. When we got in to Tofino, cold, wet and tired, the harbor master said "You can raft up to that really nice, fancy wooden sailboat with no one on board" (*Paraphrased to add color*) but didn't offer to help. Without experience rafting, or knowing the educate, or the local customs, we where happy to find another small spot on the end of a dock we could tie up to.

Now that I have a *little* more experience, and know that it's customary in BC thanks to this thread, I won't freak out about it so much next time.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

As far as rafting etiquette, what if a large boat wishes to raft against your more humble boat. Is there risk of crushing your bulkheads in a surge or strong broadside wind? The pic by faster with all the fishing boats rafted, seems the boats nearest to the dock will get severly compressed under the wrong conditions. Seems some major damage could be done under the wrond conditions. I never raft so have no experience.


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## Bob142 (May 27, 2012)

In case of needing to raft a larger boat when a smaller one is tied to the dock you just reverse the proceedure that Bilgewater described and put yours on the dock and the smaller one outside...Never a great need to get twisted over...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

casey1999 said:


> As far as rafting etiquette, what if a large boat wishes to raft against your more humble boat. Is there risk of crushing your bulkheads in a surge or strong broadside wind? The pic by faster with all the fishing boats rafted, seems the boats nearest to the dock will get severly compressed under the wrong conditions. Seems some major damage could be done under the wrond conditions. I never raft so have no experience.


It's true that the inside boat (esp in the situation of that fishing fleet raftup.. more on that in a bit) is heavily stressed. If a strong breeze had come up there that whole raft would have bent downwind, quite likely causing some issues for the inside boat and her lines.

It's not unusual to be rafted three deep at popular public docks (those with access to shopping, booze, showers etc) and you do need to be cognizant of the 'appropriateness' of rafting to any particular boat. Powerboats with extreme flair in the topsides are especially difficult for a sailboat to fender up against - the deck edge often seems to align with the tops of our stanchions. So we try to raft like-to-like (LOA and hull shape) Often, too, we end up rafting to non transient vessels typically neglected, or a mess on deck and crossing them is sometimes tricky business.

btw that pic is from the 50s, obviously.. the town is Ocean Falls BC.. a now largely abandoned paper mill company town. At its heyday over 1000 employees worked in the mill and up to 4-5000 residents lived there in a combination of company housing and private homes a mile or so away. At the end of a typical coastal fiord, it had (has) no road access - air or boat only. The more rugged cruiser set are making this a destination these days.. about 50-60 full timers still live there. The mill there operated from 1905 to 1981. In those days the fishermen fished 5 days/week... that's probably part of the reason that today they're lucky to fish 5 days/year.....


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## RocketScience (Sep 8, 2008)

People traipsing across your boat, people untying your boat, swinging your boat, retying your boat. Been there, done that. Ain't worth the liability, damage to your boat, fist fights, attitude, and dock-locked when you wanna leave in extreme rafting cases.

Nah, I drop the hook. It's a little more hassle, but but I forgo all of the above.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

RocketScience said:


> People traipsing across your boat, people untying your boat, swinging your boat, retying your boat. Been there, done that. Ain't worth the liability, damage to your boat, fist fights, attitude, and dock-locked when you wanna leave in extreme rafting cases.
> 
> Nah, I drop the hook. It's a little more hassle, but but I forgo all of the above.


... as you should if that's how you feel.. but we have areas with access to supplies but no nearby anchoring available (depth, space, etc) If it's the only provisioning spot one's options become limited.

Another tactic might be to leave one person aboard, send the rest in by dinghy and wait/drift around to retrieve them afterwards.. we've done that too.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I would never raft up to a strangers boat without their consent! Having said that, if they had fenders out, I could consider that an invitation to raft!

Most of the rafting I have done is at yacht club outstations where there is always people to help out, and it is understood that it could happen while you are away from the boat. I am not sure I would be crazy about someone doing it at a public dock in my absence! I would certainly be unimpressed if they moved my boat to the outside of the raft!

And then there is the kind of raft we were in this summer! This one was rather challenging when the party was on the far end from our boat!


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## Bilgewater (Jul 17, 2008)

Faster said:


> btw that pic is from the 50s, obviously.. the town is Ocean Falls BC.. a now largely abandoned paper mill company town. At its heyday over 1000 employees worked in the mill and up to 4-5000 residents lived there in a combination of company housing and private homes a mile or so away. At the end of a typical coastal fiord, it had (has) no road access - air or boat only. The more rugged cruiser set are making this a destination these days.. about 50-60 full timers still live there. The mill there operated from 1905 to 1981. In those days the fishermen fished 5 days/week... that's probably part of the reason that today they're lucky to fish 5 days/year.....


Ha, I was curious about that photo. Ocean Falls was quite the place at one time. Did you work in that paper mill?


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## RocketScience (Sep 8, 2008)

Faster said:


> ... as you should if that's how you feel.. *but we have areas with access to supplies but no nearby anchoring available (depth, space, etc) If it's the only provisioning spot one's options become limited.*
> 
> Another tactic might be to leave one person aboard, send the rest in by dinghy and wait/drift around to retrieve them afterwards.. we've done that too.


Our cruising grounds are similar if not the same (Refuge Cove comes to mind  ), so I hear you. But I'd rather just dinghy 15 min. from a temporary half decent anchorage than deal with it. That's just me...


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

b40Ibis said:


> From your post I suppose they were dropping someone off? Seems harmless but what if they banged up the side of your boat in the process?


I think they were picking up my "guest". 
The surge was intense and as I indicated, I wouldn't consider rafting any boat in it. I'm not very experienced with rafting, and maybe I'm being a weenie, but this thread will give you some sense of the conditions (what can I say....it was an eventful weekend!)http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seamanship/92913-boat-bondage.html

In addition, In my OP, I indicated for simplicity, there was open water to Port, (before being enlightened by this thread). In fact, another dock exists to Port, where large (200-300') Ferries/Charter boats live. Rafting two, certainly three boats to the public dock would be an issue for them.

In any case, this thread had certainly been an eye opener for me. Thanks for all your input (as always)!


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

rockDAWG said:


> I don't mind at all if they know what they doing and no damage to my boat. In a pubic area, it is meant to share. If you fence off the first one, the second one may be even worse. Be nice and be kind will go long way.


With all due respect and in complete sincerity...those are some BIG "ifs", given the lack of competence and common sense I see in my marina on a regular basis. 
I had no idea docking at a public dock made my boat public property, or an easement, any more than parking my car in a public parking lot. 
If the dock was full when I arrived, I would ask an attended boat if I could raft, wait for a space or go elsewhere. I would never even consider boarding an unattended vessel or rafting up to same (the regatta environment I described in the OP notwithstanding) . I am "nice and kind" afforded proper respect. Short of that, I'm a bit like running into a chainsaw. 
Anyway....I've been informed and warned, thanks for that!


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## SkywalkerII (Feb 20, 2008)

For what it's worth, I've never seen this done in the Long Island Sound area. I've circled around, waiting for dock space.

Rafting only occurs among friends or social gatherings on moorings.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I wont' say I've never seen rafting around here. I have. However, I can't believe it would be done without permission. There are some marinas that will raft you, but tell you so. I would be upset to find anyone on my boat without permission.

While different, climbing through other dinghies to get to the dock is extremely common.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

My understanding is that this is somewhat culturally driven. The "don't touch mine!" attitude is very American and an expression of our greater "personal space", and that rafting is more commonly accepted in Europe, Aus and NZ.

Hopefully if I'm wrong, someone from those areas will speak up and correct me.

For my part, I would not object to being rafted to by strangers at a public dock, so long as it was done correctly and with common sense. If damage were done, there'd be hell to pay for sure.

I like the tip about posting a mobile phone number in the window, so that potential rafters can contact me. I'll put that to use.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Public docks are free, you don't own what you don't pay for. 
Maybe it's just me, but I never turn down a request to raft off me.

If I am at a public dock I expect to rafted off, especially if there are no other spots empty.

ICW has spots where rafting up is a must. Hard to anchor in a canal and there is only so much seawall to tie to - you expect late comers to idle back and forth overnight?

If the surge is such that you are bouncing around to the point of concern, why didn't you anchor off and dinghy in? 
The answer is likely the same as the guy that wanted to raft off you.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

I wouldn't do it without permission.

I also wouldn't go ballistic on someone for rafting up to me, especially if there's no harm done. The tone of your post makes me want to say, whoah, calm down, easy there. A little patience, understanding and friendliness can go a long way.

In that situation, I'd more than likely invite the guy to go ahead and raft up and join me for a beer.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

SkywalkerII said:


> For what it's worth, I've never seen this done in the Long Island Sound area. I've circled around, waiting for dock space.
> 
> Rafting only occurs among friends or social gatherings on moorings.


This is how it's done in the NE. Raft to a Hinckley, Morris, Lyman-Morse etc.. scratch it, and you likely just bought a 20k+ paint job!!!!

I find the behavior, without owner permission, rude but I agree it depends upon where you are and the local customs. I would not suggest trying it up here unless you know the other owner and have agreed upon it ahead of time. We simply circle and wait or anchor elsewhere and dinghy ashore. We generally avoid public docks anyway as the commercial guys often use them and, well, they are working we are playing. No skin of our back to anchor and take the dink in and let the guys work... When I used to move boats up and down the East coast / ICW for winter/summer deliveries it was not uncommon for us to stay on the boat and send another to shore when there was no good place to anchor and the town dock was a "rafter". Course we were often in 50+ foot behemoth's that would crush a small boat....

I think the bottom line is that if it was "customary" where the OP was then he/she would likely know about it and not be as upset. If it is not "customary" behavior then I think it is just rude when done without permission.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

Yea ive always wondered about raffting up seem cool to raft up with other boats. The problem with me is i don't know other people with boat and when i come into a anchorage and there rafting up i usally just pick up a mooring or fall back away from them and anchor off. around here u never see boats rafting up at a dock. Also theres uslally more room for a boat in from or in back. But there isn't any public docks so don't have to worry about transiting them.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Minnewaska said:


> I wont' say I've never seen rafting around here. I have. However, I can't believe it would be done without permission. There are some marinas that will raft you, but tell you so. I would be upset to find anyone on my boat without permission.
> 
> While different, climbing through other dinghies to get to the dock is extremely common.


It does happen in my area of LIS.

The Wed. night racers approach you at 5 knots with one ugly fender dangling then unload their coolers and crew over your boat. At first is sorta bugged me, but now I just smile and lend them a hand.

Maybe it's just the uptight New Englander in us that makes us prone to freaking out over someone else touching our stuff


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## Bilgewater (Jul 17, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> This is how it's done in the NE. Raft to a Hinckley, Morris, Lyman-Morse etc.. scratch it, and you likely just bought a 20k+ paint job!!!!
> 
> *I find the behavior, without owner permission, rude but I agree it depends upon where you are and the local customs.*


It's all about local customs as you indicate. To be clear (I'm only talking about these waters) Those that are secured to a public wharf are generally aware that they will be rafted to prior to even entering the breakwater. It's quite apparent how things are done the moment they see the first boats. Most will have fenders on the outside which pretty much indicates an invitation. I don't just pick any boat to raft to. I definitely wouldn't pick a shiny yacht of any kind. I have seen boats (usually sailboats) that will secure a dinghy to the outside of the vessel to prevent rafters. This tactic is generally frowned upon and considered unfriendly, but you see transients doing it occasionally.

This is usually how it works unless your a local...You would radio the Wharfinger and they will give you a couple of rafting options based on your vessel. Once you get in there and see your spot might have some issues, you would ask for another option. If your coming in at night or you can't get them on the radio, you would try to find the transient float or just go in and find a rough looking vessel or a fishboat that will likely not be leaving anytime soon. Then you walk the dock until you find a local and ask them if you're OK where you are.

It's not considered rude around here and it's actually quite a good way of doing things. You meet new people this way and most people particularly locals don't mind and it's simply the way it's always been done.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

My question about rafting is that since sailing and or docking aren't an emergency situation, and you choose at (and by) your own leisure to be out there, why is it so imperative that you be able to dock right this instant regardless of others property and parking privilege? 

When we park a car in public, do we expect that if there is no parking spot available, we have the right to block the car in who actually got there first for parking, and walk across their hood?

I can't see how your desire to park your boat takes priority over someone else's property? What am I not seeing here, except that you really want to park your boat right this instant and other peoples property and parking don't matter at all?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Driving and boating are different cultures. Double park and you're blocking a lane or a road... As boaters we have less restrictions on where we can go... Not sure the analogy holds up.

It's becoming quite clear that this practice has regional boundaries.

And it can cause problems.. Inconsiderate or ignorant rafters can cause grief and do damage. But even if you anchored off that same offender might Tbone you as they're leaving..


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

chrisncate said:


> My question about rafting is that since sailing and or docking aren't an emergency situation, and you choose at (and by) your own leisure to be out there, why is it so imperative that you be able to dock right this instant regardless of others property and parking privilege?
> 
> When we park a car in public, do we expect that if there is no parking spot available, we have the right to block the car in who actually got there first for parking, and walk across their hood?
> 
> I can't see how your desire to park your boat takes priority over someone else's property? What am I not seeing here, except that you really want to park your boat right this instant and other peoples property and parking don't matter at all?


I think the attitude in these locales is "There are limited public accomodations, and this is how we share them to accomdate as many people as possible".

Add to this, that the space is _public_. If it were _paid_, then I'd understand a disagreement.

Like I said, it's sort of a cultural thing. You disagree with it, because it's not generally accepted behavior here on the Chesapeake, except in social situations.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Chris,

In many locations there isn't a choice. One marine near me has about 100' of sea wall, and that's it. If you get there after its all gone you can either raft, or keep sailing to the next marine about 20 miles away. I promise you if you show up there on any weekend people will raft up against you, and will do so without asking. And tying up a dinghy to the outside will just result in the harbor master kicking your boat out of the marine. 

As with most things there is an etiquette to rafting which should be followed, but other than that I can't see the problem.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

BubbleheadMd said:


> ......
> Add to this, that the space is _public_. If it were _paid_, then I'd understand a disagreement.


In our area public docks are NOT all free - in fact few are.. most charge moorage and day fees after a few hours grace time. AND as a rafter you pay the same rate that the guy tied to the dock pays. In some cases/places you'll be tied stern-to, and closely rafted and will be charged based on LOA, not the 'dock' you used.

.. but that's just the way it is....


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

I still have yet to see an argument made that speaks to the fact that regardless of what you may desire at the moment (immediate parking for your pleasure boat), you are out there sailing by choice - and your _desire_ to dock isn't an emergency or necessarily a situation that should give you easement rights over another private property.

While the dock may be public, the vessel you are commandeering and boarding in order to access that dock is not. It just strikes me as a very entitled attitude to have, again in light of the fact that you make the choice to potentially sail up to a dock that may not have the room to accommodate you.

I don't see a justification (unless in an emergency) as to why you are entitled to park your boat at the risk and expense of another boater who got there first.

?


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## Bilgewater (Jul 17, 2008)

My brother used to live on Staten Island. Mike and I had spent the afternoon having a good time in Manhattan after which we boarded the ferry to Staten Island. After departing the ferry at the other end I see everyone making for a long line of cabbies so I step into an empty one with Mile one step behind. Mike tells the cabby where we're going and next thing I know the cab is quickly filling with odd characters. I was soon instructing them that this was our cab but was quickly interrupted by Mike with "This is how it works here". Apparently we fill the cab and share the cost. Well I made this out to be quite an odd custom particularly in a very large city like New York. But it was practical, friendly and it worked quite well. I now wish it was customary elsewhere. I think we're all a bit too quick to guard our privacy and at the same time we're missing out on new experiences and interacting with strangers. This was back in the early 80s so it could be different now but that would be a shame.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I like the tip about posting a mobile phone number in the window, so that potential rafters can contact me. I'll put that to use.


I put my cell number on the washboards at hatchway, that way if anyone needs to contact me they can.

I often see boats at the harbor that need attention (broken dock lines, slowly filling with water, ect.), it would be nice to be able to easily reach these people and ask if it is ok to "fix' their boat. I will fix it anyway, but I always like to ask permission to do anything to others property.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> My question about rafting is that since sailing and or docking aren't an emergency situation, and you choose at (and by) your own leisure to be out there, why is it so imperative that you be able to dock right this instant regardless of others property and parking privilege?
> 
> When we park a car in public, do we expect that if there is no parking spot available, we have the right to block the car in who actually got there first for parking, and walk across their hood?
> 
> I can't see how your desire to park your boat takes priority over someone else's property? What am I not seeing here, except that you really want to park your boat right this instant and other peoples property and parking don't matter at all?


You make a good point.

Another thought, let's say you needed to raft up to get to the dock, but there was a super yacht at your raft up spot that had a gleeming topside gel coat of midnight blue (not a scratch on it). Would you raft to this yacht?

Now suppose instead of the super yacht, there was my humble boat with faded topside paint that shows obivious signs of dock run ins. Would you hesitate to raft to my boat?


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

chrisncate said:


> My question about rafting is that since sailing and or docking aren't an emergency situation, and you choose at (and by) your own leisure to be out there, why is it so imperative that you be able to dock right this instant regardless of others property and parking privilege?
> 
> When we park a car in public, do we expect that if there is no parking spot available, we have the right to block the car in who actually got there first for parking, and walk across their hood?
> 
> I can't see how your desire to park your boat takes priority over someone else's property? What am I not seeing here, except that you really want to park your boat right this instant and other peoples property and parking don't matter at all?


I don't think your example of mall parking is the same as boat rafting. But in a private gathering, double park and blocking the driveway is common in order to accommodate more guests. In either case, I would never walk on the hood of other people's car.

In my previous post, I said I would not mind others rafting next to me. However, I would never raft to other people's boat, just in case someone like you. I certainly don't want to ruin your days.

Some are anal about their procession, some are not. I have never emotionally attached to anything I own. Every time I get a brand new car, I always offer the key to my employees to take a spin during the lunch hour.

It is only money, we can always make some more.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

casey1999 said:


> ...Another thought, let's say you needed to raft up to get to the dock, but there was a super yacht at your raft up spot that had a gleeming topside gel coat of midnight blue (not a scratch on it). Would you raft to this yacht?


No I wouldn't.. it's not an appropriate vessel and in any event you probably couldn't safely climb over the bulwarks to cross over anyhow...



casey1999 said:


> ...Now suppose instead of the super yacht, there was my humble boat with faded topside paint that shows obivious signs of dock run ins. Would you hesitate to raft to my boat?


Definitely not! You'd be the perfect candidate. It's also unlikely that you'd get upset about it.. (unlike the blue-blazered owner of example # 1!!)


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Faster said:


> No I wouldn't.. it's not an appropriate vessel and in any event you probably couldn't safely climb over the bulwarks to cross over anyhow...
> 
> Definitely not! You'd be the perfect candidate. It's also unlikely that you'd get upset about it.. (unlike the blue-blazered owner of example # 1!!)


You are right, I would not get upset. Just the other day at my work parking lot someone did a hit and run on my 91 mits pickup. Now this pickup is covered with rust holes and dents, and now has an additional blue paint scrape and dent on the rear quarter panel, lucky they did not break the tail light or I would have somthing to fix. I would have however appreciated a note just saying "sorry about the scrape". Have people run into me all the time and I just say "no problem", but just saying "sorry" would be nice.

When your rides don't "look" good you get no respect....


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

rockDAWG said:


> It is only money, we can always make some more.


Try telling that to the mother of a starving baby in some third world country.

Maybe somthing like "it is only money, I can always make some more" would be truer.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

It should be pointed out to folks who are new to rafting that hanging bouys is not the only concern to mitigate damage. Another, and I think a far larger concern, is mast swing. Boats need to be staggered otherwise the boat on the outside hit by a large wake will roll first and the mast can swing and hook the shroud/mast of the inside boat.

That said, I think rafting up is an age old custom of the sea and if it is the last option available to me it is one I will take with the usual qualifications of it being public (i.e. free) and would not cause damage to the other boat.

I have rafted up to strangers in a number of countries and while the raftees would prefer it not be done they were resigned to the fact it was the only option. The last guy I rafted to actually only moaned about having to work the lines for the tide while I got a free ride up and down next to his boat. 


Originally Posted by rockDAWG 

'It is only money, we can always make some more.' 

Originally Posted by casey1999

'Try telling that to the mother of a starving baby in some third world country.'

I will give it a shot when I raft up next to her yacht


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

ScottUK said:


> It should be pointed out to folks who are new to rafting that hanging bouys is not the only concern to mitigate damage. Another, and I think a far larger concern, is mast swing. Boats need to be staggered otherwise the boat on the outside hit by a large wake will roll first and the mast can swing and hook the shroud/mast of the inside boat.
> 
> That said, I think rafting up is an age old custom of the sea and if it is the last option available to me it is one I will take with the usual qualifications of it being public (i.e. free) and would not cause damage to the other boat.
> 
> ...


With your attitude, raft next to me I'll cut ye lines. Good thing ye on the other side of the world..


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Problem I see with rafting is that things are a lot different than say 30 to 100 years ago. Today everything has become litigious and no one takes responsibility for there own actions and damage it may cause.

You say you will only raft if it is safe and will not cause damage. Who is to be the sole judge of the damge, the one doing the rafting or the one being rafted to. Do you have adequate insurance to cover the damage and hardship you may cause or do you have very deep pockets? What if a power boat wake causes your masts to hang up and you do $50K worth of damage- are you prepared for that event. Accidents happen even when taking upmost care. 

I would never raft without permission.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

On BC public docks , rafting is mandatory, and always has been. You have no right to stop anyone from rafting to you. If you dont want to be rafted up to, stay out of public docks and stay in private marinas.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Casey1999, I think your last post was referring to my post so in response I'll just say in my experience I have never seen firsthand a rafted boat damage another. This might be due to the extreme caution taken when rafting but I don't know for sure. What I have seen firsthand is boats dragging through anchorages, damage from one boat to another in side by side slips and boats falling over on the hard hitting the boat next to it. Granted rafting might not be practised as extensively as the other modes and so my experience might be biased but I do not think it puts other boats in undue peril if using a common sense approach. 

Without empirical data I could not give an informed opinion on societal responsibility today as opposed to 70-100 years ago. 

As far as litigiousness is concerned law in the States is refined by the courts hence the active jurisprudence.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

ScottUK said:


> Casey1999, I think your last post was referring to my post so in response I'll just say in my experience I have never seen firsthand a rafted boat damage another. This might be due to the extreme caution taken when rafting but I don't know for sure. What I have seen firsthand is boats dragging through anchorages, damage from one boat to another in side by side slips and boats falling over on the hard hitting the boat next to it. Granted rafting might not be practised as extensively as the other modes and so my experience might be biased but I do not think it puts other boats in undue peril if using a common sense approach.
> 
> Without empirical data I could not give an informed opinion on societal responsibility today as opposed to 70-100 years ago.
> 
> As far as litigiousness is concerned law in the States is refined by the courts hence the active jurisprudence.


My comment was based on this quote by you. I really don't care why, when and how you raft, as long as it is not next to me!

Originally Posted by rockDAWG

'It is only money, we can always make some more.'

Originally Posted by casey1999

'Try telling that to the mother of a starving baby in some third world country.'

Originally Posted by ScottUK:
"I will give it a shot when I raft up next to her yacht"


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Don't know why you would take it personally. I just didn't understand why it was part of the narrative so I made a joke.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

ScottUK said:


> Don't know why you would take it personally. I just didn't understand why it was part of the narrative so I made a joke.


Seems your side of the pond has all the same arguments about rafting:
Mooring buoy and rafting up etiquette - Yachting and Boating World Forums

Aw, that was a joke, sorry I misunderstood.

This is thread #41 from above link- so damage does happen:

"We were once in a raft of 14 boats in Dunmore East in very windy conditions. The wind was blowing from almost directly ahead. We were about 7 out and had shore lines but not too many others did. After about a day the inside boat, probably about a 34 footer, moved outside because he was suffering major crushing damage.

I still have a composite photograph of the raft ahead of us. It was also 13 or 14 deep, but the outside boat was an enormous Austrian-flagged aluminium catamaran. It was probably twice the length of some of the inner boats."


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## crstophr (Feb 15, 2012)

I'm not at all in this situation but this discussion brings a question to mind... what do you do when you want to leave and someone is rafted up to you? If I'm the boat on the dock no a side tie and someone rafts up to me fine... but now what do I do when it's time for me to leave? If you're single handing how do you get your own boat free without setting the other boat adrift?

My biggest concerns would be people rafting up to a bow or stern pulpit or otherwise


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

There is a whole thread somewhere on keeping "Zombies" off your boat...

Perhaps some of the same techniques would apply here...?


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Casey1999 after a cursory review it would appear the most people are ok with the rafting and point out and ostracise the ones who aren't. The damaged boat you point out was at the end of 14 boats with a large cat on the outside and it was blowing ****e so I think this case would have to be an exception. Never have rafted on a mooring ball though I think they had been directed there by the marina or harbour master.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

crstophr said:


> I'm not at all in this situation but this discussion brings a question to mind... what do you do when you want to leave and someone is rafted up to you? If I'm the boat on the dock no a side tie and someone rafts up to me fine... but now what do I do when it's time for me to leave? If you're single handing how do you get your own boat free without setting the other boat adrift? My biggest concerns would be people rafting up to a bow or stern pulpit or otherwise


Covered earlier in the thread.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

The only place on the Chesapeake--not including regattas and the like--is in the Dismal Swamp Canal. The reason in the canal? Dockage is very limited, folks may have to stop overnight because of the opening schedule, and anchoring-out is not a legal or practical answer. Either accept rafting or don't take the canal.

My experiences were very polite; refusing would have been rude.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

chrisncate said:


> I still have yet to see an argument made that speaks to the fact that regardless of what you may desire at the moment (immediate parking for your pleasure boat), you are out there sailing by choice - and your _desire_ to dock isn't an emergency or necessarily a situation that should give you easement rights over another private property.
> While the dock may be public, the vessel you are commandeering and boarding in order to access that dock is not. It just strikes me as a very entitled attitude to have, again in light of the fact that you make the choice to potentially sail up to a dock that may not have the room to accommodate you.I don't see a justification (unless in an emergency) as to why you are entitled to park your boat at the risk and expense of another boater who got there first.?


I completely agree. Car parking is tight in SF (an understatement!). Let's just leave our keys in the ignition, pack the lot as tight as we can, and let whoever needs to leave, sort it out. Why not? You know darn well "why not"! 
What happens if my "guest" (who I didn't know was on my boat) trips on a line, does a face plant into my cockpit and breaks his neck (could be drunk or just clumsy)? Does my insurance cover it, or was he trespassing? Was he preparing to raft a boat, or going shopping in my salon?
What if the rafting boat doesn't use fenders ("we're just dropping someone off") gouges the side of my boat in the surge, and leaves, without me even knowing they were there. Who do I look to for compensation?
Yet, I'm supposed to trust a person who I've never met, to board and handle my boat without my knowledge? 
I certainly don't have a "Hinkely". However, I work hard to maintain the old boat I have. I find the concept that what would be considered trespassing on land, is acceptable at sea, nothing short of bizarre (regatta, and marina situations, not withstanding).
If I'm aboard, I'd do everything possible to accomidate them.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> On BC public docks , rafting is mandatory, and always has been. You have no right to stop anyone from rafting to you. If you dont want to be rafted up to, stay out of public docks and stay in private marinas.


Wouldn't that only really logically apply where it is the custom to do so, and boaters who dock have fair warning so they can choose not to be rafted without forewarning?

Or do you believe that that ought to just apply anywhere, regardless of local custom?


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

There are three kinds of people in the world, those that can count and those that can't.

That said, this thread nets out to two groups: rafting is OK, and its my boat and you can't raft to it. I would suggest that local custom is mostly a result of necessity. In areas with lots of boats and not much dockage rafting becomes a custom. In the (paid) marina in Horta, Faisal, Azores every (paid) boat in the marina is rafted usually 3 deep. Getting the inside boat out of the nest with a three raft in front and behind is quite a trick. That is why everyone on the dock helps out. For those who say "they should anchor out" the anchorage is far to small to accommodate the boats that are rafted. When it gets a little dicey the inside boat gets pressed up against a concrete seawall. Not fun but it is the way it is. Usually the outside boats will contribute fenders for the inside boat but not always.

In Europe "med mooring" is common. One backs (or goes bow in) to a wall or pontoon with the other end of the boat (normally the bow) being held by an anchor. You are side by side with two other boats with no place to put lines and no dock. Although not the same as rafting many of the same concerns hold - what if he swings into me, what if our masts hit each other, etc. Med mooring has been a fact of life in Europe forever, most boats carry far more and bigger fenders than you would see in the US.

IMHO rafting at public docks is usually controlled by the dockmaster. In Jacksonville FL it is mandatory. In Savannah, GA it is prohibited (I believe to protect the docks which are not that strong and sit in a strong current.) Like others have noted I have a tag with my phone number on the boat so that people can call me. But not only have I come back from a provisioning trip to find someone rafted to my boat, I have come back to find my boat in a different place on the dock! I have been on board inside and heard footsteps on my boat only to discover that people from the next boat already docked are climbing on to make sure that someone rafting to me has a safe and damage free landing believing my boat to be unattended.

Custom can also override common sense. It has been noted that the custom is to cross the bow. On _Reboot_ usually the bow has a dinghy, fuel tanks, etc. making crossing difficult. So I invite the people who are rafted to me to cross the cockpit. Do they? No, of course not. That would be rude. So they climb over all my ****e on the bow!

Many have pointed out that they would raft with friends but not with strangers. I have solved this problem both as the rafter and the raftee. After we get the lines over, with particular emphasis on the spring lines to protect the spreaders and masts I say "do you want a beer?" Voila - now we are friends!

My two cents.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

By the looks of all the dock rash on most boats, I can't believe you aren't at risk when a stranger rafts up next to you.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

i have rafted and been rafted to--i do not like the cracks in the teak rail (now needing replacement, but there is no wood for this--is TEAK, 1X6Xalmost 10 feet)as a result nor do i enjoy the knitting of rigging with sailing boats lighter than mine when rafted in a surge/swell situation. rough water--i will not raft, thankyou--i have enough damage from those small boats who stated that "woudn't happen" to me, before cracking my teak rails.
i try to keep my anchoring away from others, and i will visit if and when i feel the need or urge to meet. having strangers near my boat disturbs my guard cat.

no, i am not mean, i am knowledgeable. btdt with rafting in a rough water situation. will not do that again. i even did it 2 times, to make sure it didnt work. so i have an open mind--just not to rafting against my boat or with it.

by the way--NO ONE has the RIGHT or PRIVILEGE to walk onto someone else's boat UNINVITED and without requesting permission to board the ship. (not learned from a yottie--but from an old salt merchant mariner/sailor)


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

ScottUK said:


> Casey1999 after a cursory review it would appear the most people are ok with the rafting and point out and ostracise the ones who aren't. The damaged boat you point out was at the end of 14 boats with a large cat on the outside and it was blowing ****e so I think this case would have to be an exception. Never have rafted on a mooring ball though I think they had been directed there by the marina or harbour master.


Yes, I read most of the thread also, that is why I posted.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

anyone ostracising anyone else is no sailor of boats. 
everyone has a different experience with everything-- because someone doesnt want to raft due to whatever reason, is a worthy opinion and not to be badmouthed--of course, if one is not a sailor, is very easy to point out what is , in their mind, bad and good ideas--lol but i think that is called trolling.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Zeehag, not sure if you read through the link in post #55 given your comment on ostracising. I'm also not sure if one old salt merchant mariner/sailor should be the final arbitrator on what is customary.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Why would anybody have the expectation of exclusive use for an unattended public dock or landing? Other boaters have the same right to the dock as you do given that there are no restrictions as to number of boats allowed to dock at any one time. If you do not want risk someone rafting to you on a public dock – do not leave your boat unattended and be willing to leave when the next boater wishes to land or dock. It is pretty simple. If you want exclusive use, you should be willing to pay for it by going to a guest dock where they charge you for the privilege. 

Once, someone who was attempting to Med-moor alongside my (unattended) boat gouged my gel-cote. He was very diligent in contacting me and prompt in paying for my repairs. The sad fact of San Francisco Bay is there is somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 boats and only a few public (and free) docks. We also have few places to even anchor. The classic case in point is Sam’s in Tiburon. As to the Ferry building dock, what are time restrictions for tying up? Isn’t the primary intension of the dock for dropping off and picking up crew and not for “all day use”?


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

ScottUK said:


> Zeehag, not sure if you read through the link in post #55 given your comment on ostracising. I'm also not sure if one old salt merchant mariner/sailor should be the final arbitrator on what is customary.


customary is to await invitation to board someone else's boat or to have been invited--otherwise do not board.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> customary is to await invitation to board someone else's boat or to have been invited--otherwise do not board.


Where rafting is customary I would say permission is implied.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

then best be rafting only folks known to the boat owner or prior permission given, as is custom in some places wherein rafting is popular.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Don't recall me or anyone else ever asking for permission when rafted to cross to get to the pier. Just my experience.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

GeorgeB said:


> Why would anybody have the expectation of exclusive use for an unattended public dock or landing? Other boaters have the same right to the dock as you do given that there are no restrictions as to number of boats allowed to dock at any one time. If you do not want risk someone rafting to you on a public dock - do not leave your boat unattended and be willing to leave when the next boater wishes to land or dock. It is pretty simple. If you want exclusive use, you should be willing to pay for it by going to a guest dock where they charge you for the privilege. Once, someone who was attempting to Med-moor alongside my (unattended) boat gouged my gel-cote. He was very diligent in contacting me and prompt in paying for my repairs. The sad fact of San Francisco Bay is there is somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 boats and only a few public (and free) docks. We also have few places to even anchor. The classic case in point is Sam's in Tiburon. As to the Ferry building dock, what are time restrictions for tying up? Isn't the primary intension of the dock for dropping off and picking up crew and not for "all day use"?


As I recall the only posted restrictions at Pier 1.5 (the dock you refer to) are that it is open 6am to 10 pm, and no overnight docking is allowed. It's seems intended to allow boat crews access to the restaurants and shops on the Embarcadero as well as for pick up and drop off. It also has as a specific area for Water Taxis. During the super busy weekend I refer to in the OP, I used it Sat. (to go to a restaurant) and Sun. (for pick up and drop off) and never saw one water taxi. I have used it since it has been open, and space is rarely an issue. I have NEVER seen any boats rafted there (or any other public dock for that matter). I don't "expect exclusive rights" but think it is first come, first served. Nor was I aware that by docking there, I was granting implied rights, or an easement on my boat. I'm still not convinced that is the case (in the Bay Area anyway). The public dock between the Mariposa and Bayview YC's has a sign that states that any boats left unattended will be towed. At the public dock at Jack London, I think there is a posted 3 hour limit (never enforced, they are just happy to have you there!). I think Sam's is looser, as anyone docking there is likely to be on the deck overlooking the dock (or at least is Sam's). 
One time, I couldn't get the boat into Sam's to drop someone off due to low water, so I dropped him off at the gated ferry dock and left. Turns out, the gate won't let anyone in or OUT without a key. He stood there for 40 minutes until the next Ferry came!
BTW - I did have a solar spot light I was charging "leave" the cockpit at 1.5. The same spotlight has spent years in my cockpit at various marinas. So...there clearly is a difference in environments (not that things don't disappear from marinas).


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

I would think local laws, regs, customs would be the rule one should adhere to. But in any case, I do not think one should assume they can raft without permission unless it is a local law, regulation or custom to do so. If you are not sure if it proper to raft, then don't do it.

True you do not "own" a public dock, but you should have exclusive use of the space you occupy while you are there. And no one should have permission to touch your boat or tie to you unless you have given them permission to do so, or if is the local law, reg or custom (when in Rome, do as the Roman's do).

I look at it like a free on street public parking space. You have exclusive use of that space within the local laws, regs and customs. No one has the right to move your vehicle, to touch your vehicle, or to double park and block you in.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

L124C, thanks for the info. I remember reading about the Ferry Building Pier in Latitude but couldn’t recall the details. From what I’ve seen sailing by, it gets a lot of surge from both the Bay and the ferries. Not my cup of tea. I just figured that it being managed by the City, it would have the same restrictions as Dock A at South Beach and the fuel dock at Gas House Cove. I did some internet sleuthing and found this gem on the OCSC website:

“Pier 1½, open from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. every day, only has a few rules – no rafting, no boats over 40 feet, and stays are limited to three hours are the biggies”

It seems to me that the City needs to do a better job at signage. You are absolutely right, no rafting, but unfortunately, you will have to be on your boat in order to enforce it. Now here is an ethical dilemma, upon returning to your boat and finding an unattended rafted boat, what do you do? Cut him loose? Wait and confront him? How do you know that he knew that he parked illegally? Perhaps he didn’t know? I have talked to boaters who like yourself, have suffered damage at that dock. They all said that docking there was a mistake and wouldn’t do it again. You are always at risk for theft if you leave your boat unattended at an unlocked public dock. We use Dock A for dropping off and picking up crew and when we have to leave the boat for any time at all we button her down tight.

The ramp at Bayview - what brings you down there? Did drop your boat off there to see a Giants game? Before they installed the second dock at Sam's there was rafting there. At Petaluma, if you are not Med-Moor'd you will be rafted on - especially on a three day weekend. I have seen rafts at Jack London (Scott's Seafood Dock), I don't know if they were all part of a group.


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

Parking a car is a very poor analogy Casey. There are always more parking spots or parkades within a few blocks, there rarely are more marinas or other docks to tie up at in the vicinity, at least here in BC. On top of that being rafted to does not effect your ability to leave unlike double parking. Here most of us expect people to raft. Some have used the term easement but that only applies to real estate. You'd have more luck using the trespass laws but in many cases that requires you to post a sign as we do at the dock in front of the house.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

delite said:


> Parking a car is a very poor analogy Casey. There are always more parking spots or parkades within a few blocks, there rarely are more marinas or other docks to tie up at in the vicinity, at least here in BC. On top of that being rafted to does not effect your ability to leave unlike double parking. Here most of us expect people to raft. Some have used the term easement but that only applies to real estate. You'd have more luck using the trespass laws but in many cases that requires you to post a sign as we do at the dock in front of the house.


Where I live there is not more parking spots within a few blocks. Ever driven to a big sporting event and tried to find parking? If someone rafts to your boat, and you are single handing and no one around, it could very well effect your ability to leave- the same as if someone double parks you in (or blocks your driveway). Like I say, the local laws, regs and customs prevail, but parking analogy is good for me.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

you pay good money to be rafted at block island whether you want to or not


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## RocketScience (Sep 8, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> I would think local *laws, regs*, customs would be the rule one should adhere to...


I agree, with the exception of your "customs" wording. Try using the "It's the local custom" argument in the court of law when attempting to argue your position.

I keep hearing a lot of talk here about *the right* to raft given a *public* dock. Are you sure? I've searched high and low with regards to my own State's policy on this and haven't found squat. I'd be curious to see (link) other State's regs on this if they so exist.


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

Casey we'll have to disagree on your analogy. In any event it is common in BC and I wouldnt think twice about rafting to an appropriate vessel here at a public dock unless weather conditions or something else made it unsafe.

Rocket Science did you happen to find any where that said you cant? Unless specifically prohibited most actions are legal.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

RocketScience said:


> I agree, with the exception of your "customs" wording. Try using the "It's the local custom" argument in the court of law when attempting to argue your position.
> 
> I keep hearing a lot of talk here about *the right* to raft given a *public* dock. Are you sure? I've searched high and low with regards to my own State's policy on this and haven't found squat. I'd be curious to see (link) other State's regs on this if they so exist.


I would think if the local law/regulation does not specifically state if rafting is allowed or not, then the rafting issue would become a civil matter between the two boats rafted together. Therefore any damage done would be the responsibility of the boat initiating the raft. I would guess local governments may not want rafting to their dock due to additional stresses it may impose (as previous poster stated).

Kind of like parallel parking (although previous poster did not like my car analysis, I will use it again), say parking is tight and a car parallel parks and is hitting you bumper (but no damage done). This person leaves their car with their bumper touching yours (but again no damage done). You still have room to back up and get out of your parking spot. No policeman will ticket the car hitting your bumper as they are not breaking the law and no damage has been done.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

delite said:


> Parking a car is a very poor analogy Casey. There are always more parking spots or parkades within a few blocks, there rarely are more marinas or other docks to tie up at in the vicinity, at least here in BC. .


Never been to San Francisco have you? 
What's a "parkade" anyway? Sounds fancy...I'd pay extra just to park there. Do they even allow trucks? All we have is "lots"!


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

tommays said:


> you pay good money to be rafted at block island whether you want to or not


I assume that it's obvious when you arrive, posted or they tell you when you pay? 
I have no problem rafting, as long as I know to expect it, and can put out proper fenders to accommodate it. If it was super surgy (as it is at the dock in the OP), I'd go elsewhere or on the hook. Another member stated that in fact, it is forbidden at that dock, so apparently the Port Authority agrees that it's not a proper location for rafting.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

L124C said:


> ....What's a "parkade" anyway? Sounds fancy...I'd pay extra just to park there. Do they even allow trucks? All we have is "lots"!


A parkade is a multi-story parking garage to us Canajuns... and sometimes we DO pay 'extra' (too much, anyway, esp downtown Vancouver)



L124C said:


> I assume that it's obvious when you arrive, posted or they tell you when you pay?
> I have no problem rafting, as long as I know to expect it, and can put out proper fenders to accommodate it. If it was super surgy (as it is at the dock in the OP), I'd go elsewhere or on the hook. Another member stated that in fact, it is forbidden at that dock, so apparently the Port Authority agrees that it's not a proper location for rafting.


Yes, we also have areas where the docks are 'no rafting allowed'.. rarely for surge but in some cases the docks are not deemed up to the extra load. This is simply common sense and rafting in surge does seem like asking for trouble (increased complications with rig alignments, strain on lines etc.)


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

Any of you good people can raft up to me any time. Be prepared to wipe some chalky white off your rub rail when you depart.


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## Hyrdflyr (Apr 28, 2012)

In Alaska in the summer transient parking is a crapshoot. Seward is the worst. The only positive thing is that most motor vessels hate to tie to a sail boat because the shape, lifelines, etc are just not conducive to rafting up. I have come to expect a lot of "rash" from the summer traffic in Alaska. Sail boat owners appear to be a lot more considerate than the power boaters I run across. Two years ago, in another harbor, I had an idiot in a 20 foot aluminum skiff tie up below my fenders outboard without adjusting mine or putting out any of his own (there wasn't any on his boat) and his gunn'l galled the gelcoat off a patch about two feet long. I gave serious consideration to sinking the offender but moved him and went to the harbormaster to get the name and address of the offender. When I pointed out the insurance requirement for vessels in the harbor and then questioned the quality of observation of their patrol staff, I was politely informed that they only took notice of new boats to make sure that they billed all of the traffic in the harbor and didn't give a rats hind end if they noticed a boat being damaged ( unless in danger of sinking). Oh and they have a 7 year waiting list for slips. If you can get a slip, then you pay for it year around and if you haul out then they charge someone else for the use of your slip while you're gone.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

L124C said:


> Had my boat tied up to a public dock over the weekend. Tied on Starboard, open water (with a lot of surge) on Port. We left the boat unattended for a while (no time limits, etc.). When we returned to the boat, from a distance, I thought I saw a guy jump on my boat, cross the cockpit to Port, then jump back to the dock on Starboard. As he walked toward me on the dock, I stopped him and said "Did I just see you on that boat (pointing to my boat)?" He said: "Yeah, (he pointed to another boat docking in a spot that just opened) we were going to raft up, but it didn't work out". I said "What the hell do you think you are doing jumping on someone else's boat?" He replied "Happens all the time." I said: "I strongly suggest you don't do it on THAT boat again!"


I just read this whole thread and the first thing I noticed was the OP had not been rafted up too, only the crew man had been dropped off and was using the OPs boat as access to the public wharf. As the OP was blocking access to the public wharf, I can see no harm. Had he been on his boat I would assume the trespasser would have asked permission. Lay a blanket in front of a public thoroughfare, expect people to step on it.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Why do many on the pro rafting side automatically assume people who don't necessarily want to be rafted to and boarded are bad/wrong/jerks/bad people, whatever.. ?

Also, how and where do the pro rafters draw the line? At five boats? ten? A hundred? Who are you to say to that last guy who wants to add his boat in top of the pile... no, your boat is one too many? 

It seems to me that in a pro rafting world, where the general attitude is "I need my access to the public dock regardless of all others" you give up your right to tell anyone at anytime "no, you may not add to the pile".

?


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

It reminds me of the old dinghy dock in key West, There was room for maybe 5 dinghy's at the sea wall and the other 40 would tie to the last one out and crawl across the other's, If you arived early in the morning, you would be blocked in by 40 boats and have to untie and re-tie your way out. It was communal. I kind of miss those day's, As for public free docking, you get what you pay for.


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

I'll bet that in the rules and regulations of the public dock it says that you have to accept people rafting up to you.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm guessing many of our international posters here are somewhat amused by the attitudes expressed by some of the American sailors, here...

I think one finds that once one really starts going places, cruisers generally work together, and manage to sort this stuff out...

Like at the Southernmost Yacht Club in the World, for example...


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

sww914 said:


> I'll bet that in the rules and regulations of the public dock it says that you have to accept people rafting up to you.


Well.....You'd lose that bet. As was pointed out by another member, the dock forbids rafting. Here is an quote from our local sailing rag as to why: 
"Grant points out that the surge from ferries and commercial traffic is clearly the common-sense reasoning behind the dock's 'no rafting' rule, and suggests doubling up on docklines and adding spring lines, no matter how long you plan to stay. The 180-ft dock, open from 10 a.m.-10 p.m., has a three-hour limit and can accommodate boats up to 40 feet."
(Red highlight added by me)


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

SimonV said:


> I just read this whole thread and the first thing I noticed was the OP had not been rafted up too, only the crew man had been dropped off and was using the OPs boat as access to the public wharf. As the OP was blocking access to the public wharf, I can see no harm. Had he been on his boat I would assume the trespasser would have asked permission. Lay a blanket in front of a public thoroughfare, expect people to step on it.


Might want to read the OP again. You misunderstood the situation/facts and I don't know how to make them any clearer. In any case, your hypothetical "intruder" would have come from a boat that would have needed to raft to my boat (no matter how briefly) to make the transition. In that surge, anything less (i.e., a drive by jump off) would have been very dicey for the boats and especially the "trespasser". 
As to your last point... I get it. "Put anything between me and where I want to go and I'll use it to get there - Regardless of rules, regulations, courtesy or common sense. I understand, I've been warned! That alone makes this thread worthwhile.


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

chrisncate said:


> Why do many on the pro rafting side automatically assume people who don't necessarily want to be rafted to and boarded are bad/wrong/jerks/bad people, whatever.. ?
> 
> Also, how and where do the pro rafters draw the line? At five boats? ten? A hundred? Who are you to say to that last guy who wants to add his boat in top of the pile... no, your boat is one too many?
> 
> ...


I dont think anyone is assuming the anti-rafters are jerks. There definitely are times when it is inappropriate and can cause damage to boats and the dock. Where to draw the line is a tough call and hopefully common sense will prevail. We have been rafted and when I thought the pile got to big or wind picked up I moved my boat. Not always convenient but such is life.

We all need to share limited resources such as dock space and play nice with others. If you dont want to be rafted to no matter what the conditions and what is allowed, then using a public dock probably isnt a good choice whether paying a fee or not.

In the case of the OP the surge made it inappropriate and the dock appears to have a no rafting policy for good reason. The person attempting to raft should not have even considered it.

As a child I was taught to share. Whats the objection to sharing under appropriate circumstances?


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

L124C said:


> Well.....You'd lose that bet. As was pointed out by another member, the dock forbids rafting. Here is an quote from our local sailing rag as to why:
> "Grant points out that the surge from ferries and commercial traffic is clearly the common-sense reasoning behind the dock's 'no rafting' rule, and suggests doubling up on docklines and adding spring lines, no matter how long you plan to stay. The 180-ft dock, open from 10 a.m.-10 p.m., has a three-hour limit and can accommodate boats up to 40 feet."
> (Red highlight added by me)


So this discussion is all a moot point then. The rules of the dock forbid rafting. The other guy should have known that, and by saying he does it all the time, he is either grossly blind, or a scofflaw.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

Ninefingers said:


> So this discussion is all a moot point then. The rules of the dock forbid rafting. The other guy should have known that, and by saying he does it all the time, he is either grossly blind, or a scofflaw.


Not moot at all. I didn't know rafting was forbidden at the subject dock when I posted the OP. In addition, the thread has pointed out that what I considered taboo (rafting/boarding without consent), is customary in some areas and is considered OK by many, regardless of regulations/conditions. I'll plan accordingly in the future. As usual, I have benefited from the thread.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> I'm guessing many of our international posters here are somewhat amused by the attitudes expressed by some of the American sailors, here...
> I think one finds that once one really starts going places, cruisers generally work together, and manage to sort this stuff out...
> Like at the Southernmost Yacht Club in the World, for example...


I think the distinction might be "cruisers" (don't think we need to bring nationality into it). IMO, cruisers are generally experienced (i.e., mindful of surge), are respectful of other boats, as the vessel is both their home and mode of transportation. At the dock in the OP, you are more likely to find testosterone laden racers and boat owners who may take their boats out a couple of times a year (the link I provided in a previous post being an example of the latter). Either one of which, may have had "one too many".


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## Hyrdflyr (Apr 28, 2012)

[ As for public free docking, you get what you pay for.[/QUOTE]

I wish!

In Alaska, there is little opporttunity to moor a boat somewhere, extremes of weather and horrendous tides pretty much force all to use the public harbors, and most have multi year waiting lists. It's been my experience that the boats forced into "transient moorage" (vs slips), pay as much and frequently much more than a slipholder. By and large cities get a harbor built by the state and federal money and use the harbor revenue to subsidize the city budget, thereby lowering the tax rate for land owning residents. This frequently creates a system where fees are maximized and services lessened, simply to maximize profits for the harbor, which then flows to the city budget.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

delite said:


> I dont think anyone is assuming the anti-rafters are jerks. There definitely are times when it is inappropriate and can cause damage to boats and the dock. Where to draw the line is a tough call and hopefully common sense will prevail. We have been rafted and when I thought the pile got to big or wind picked up I moved my boat. Not always convenient but such is life.


There is no denying some of the haughty comments made by some of our experienced "world" cruiser friends here regarding this topic. Some of the discussions by those folks in response to those questioning rafting and boarding others vessels unannounced have a disdainful tone that seems to imply that we "just don't want to be neighborly" or be "good cruisers", or be "generous" or whatever. This is not the case at all.

Regarding where to draw the line, I have to say it again - who is anyone to decide what's appropriate, if you believe in a come one/come all dock situation?



> We all need to share limited resources such as dock space and play nice with others. If you dont want to be rafted to no matter what the conditions and what is allowed, then using a public dock probably isnt a good choice whether paying a fee or not.


Wait a minute, in a pleasure boating scenario - why do we all need to share limited resources of dock space exactly? This "rule" doesn't apply to any other recreational pastime I am aware of. If I show up to play tennis and the courts are full - I wait or leave. Ditto with just about everything else out there. Why do people think boating is different? Just because they see some workboats or other maritime occupations doing it?

What about those who got there first, often with careful forethought and timing so they could score good parking? Is there no argument to made that "those who snooze, lose", or better yet - "The early bird gets the worm"? This is like the notion that all kids get a trophy just for showing up, regardless of those who earned it. If you get the good parking first, didn't you earn it?

Public docks in some places _may_ have a local custom of rafting, which is of course fine (it's the local custom after all), but that's certainly not the case everywhere - and _definitely_ not here on the Chesapeake Bay. Many here seem to be making a blanket argument that any and every public dock should follow this line of thinking.

Whether the pro unannounced rafter/boarder contingent here wants to admit it or not, there is a more that fair argument to be made that, as a pleasure boater who is out there by your own choice, you sometimes may not be entitled to dockage just because you _want_ it right then and there. Again, what about those who made the effort to get in early and get the dock space?



> As a child I was taught to share. Whats the objection to sharing under appropriate circumstances?


This is the crux of the argument made by the rafter/boarder set that I find so over the top arrogant, as if that since I don't want to walk up to my (ex) boat to find someone rafted to it and in my cockpit or on my cabin top, that I must "object to sharing" somehow.

No one should be expected to be forced to "share" their personal property in any way shape or form. The onus is not on the person whos property is being violated without permission to defend or justify why it _shouldn't_ be, it's on the person who has decided to invade another persons personal property and space in the name of recreational boating to explain why it should be.

Personal property rights and usage control should not end at the waters edge just because (generally speaking) sailors are a generous and giving people. Those who would expect that of others are simply taking advantage of the good and generous cruiser nature via their own perceived self entitlement.

I freely admit that I do not have the Jon Eisberg level of experience of international travel, adventure and intrigue - but I _have_ experienced enough of the competence level of many of my fellow Chesapeake sailors to know I don't want the majority of them within a hundred yards of my (ex) boat, let alone trust them enough to care to maintain my brightside and brightwork like I do. Way too many incompetents, drunks and dicks to not care if they raft and board my boat without asking me (or me around to oversee things). Maybe boaters are more trustworthy and competent in other locations, but around here they very often just aren't.

Maybe some of the sailors here have forgotten that this pastime is just that - a recreational pastime, and that unless you are on a workboat or some other occupation of maritime importance, you aren't entitled to squat (especially at the risk and potential cost to others).


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

Interesting thread. And I was rafted upon yesterday after the ConnieCup race. But it was my dockmate and then someone rafted to him. No big deal in the mild conditions. I have been on a boat that TRIED to raft to another after a race but there was just too much wave action from the watermen running back in. 

I don't believe anyone has mentioned a courtesy I was taught years ago. Namely that when you are rafted up and are outside, you go across the inside boat's foredeck when crossing to/from. Never go through their cockpit.
Made sense to me; hopefully to others.


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

BubbleheadMd said:


> My understanding is that this is somewhat culturally driven. The "don't touch mine!" attitude is very American and an expression of our greater "personal space", and that rafting is more commonly accepted in Europe, Aus and NZ.
> 
> Hopefully if I'm wrong, someone from those areas will speak up and correct me.


Not at all. There's an area around here where the people will call the police if you cut across their lawn.

In France, land is something to be shared. I don't recall ever seeing a no trespassing sign. If you don't want people to come in your yard, you build a fence around it. That's why pretty much everyone has a fence around the FRONT with a gate on their driveway in addition to the back. If the gate is open or unlocked, it's okay for people to come in, possibly even a group of gypsies. If you climb over someone's fence to get in that may be considered criminal activity, but I'm not sure. I think part of it as just unchanged culture from the days of castles.

In France our landlord came in our house to plan repairs without telling us until he was in our or his hallway. Apparently that's perfectly acceptable there, and in fact, I really didn't mind.

American camping is supposed to have everyone as separated as possible in their own private wooded lots. French camping consists of rows of tents 15 feet apart with no separation at all. Then you place your order the night before for what kind of bread you want delivered in the morning.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

chrisncate said:


> I freely admit that I do not have the Jon Eisberg level of experience of international travel, adventure and intrigue - but I _have_ experienced enough of the competence level of many of my fellow Chesapeake sailors to know I don't want the majority of them within a hundred yards of my (ex) boat, let alone trust them enough to care to maintain my brightside and brightwork like I do. Way too many incompetents, drunks and dicks to not care if they raft and board my boat without asking me (or me around to oversee things). Maybe boaters are more trustworthy and competent in other locations, but around here they very often just aren't..


Well said. There are 3 boats (more accurately, their "skippers") within 50 feet of my berth, I wouldn't want anywhere near my boat. Prior to owning a boat, I would have never believed the amount of incompetence/lack of judgment I see around the marina and on the water. Of course, not requiring any type of training/certification before you are a "Skipper" of a multi ton pleasure vessel doesn't help, but thats another subject. 
Point being, I'm quite willing to let someone raft to my boat in the proper conditions. However, I want to be there when someone I don't know is doing it to provide proper fenders/lines, assist, or at the very least, witness the carnage if they screw up!


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

steel said:


> In France, land is something to be shared. I don't recall ever seeing a no trespassing sign. If you don't want people to come in your yard, you build a fence around it. That's why pretty much everyone has a fence around the FRONT with a gate on their driveway in addition to the back. If the gate is open or unlocked, it's okay for people to come in, possibly even a group of gypsies. If you climb over someone's fence to get in that may be considered criminal activity, but I'm not sure. I think part of it as just unchanged culture from the days of castles.


Brings me back to a question I asked in post #61 (don't think anyone addressed it). So, if the person "sharing" your land is injured as a result, are you responsible as a property owner? If they damage your property while "sharing" it, are they responsible? How does that work in France?



steel said:


> In France our landlord came in our house to plan repairs without telling us until he was in our or his hallway. Apparently that's perfectly acceptable there, and in fact, I really didn't! mind.


Wow!...You ARE liberal! Without even knocking or ringing the bell? What if you and a loved one were spontaneously being intimate on the stairs in the hallway (uncomfortable, I know, but just go with me on this!)? Would you simply ask said landlord to join in? 
I am a Landlord. And I always give 24 hours notice before visiting a property. I would NEVER-EVER enter the property without making sure the tenants knew I was there, or were not there themselves. This happens to be in our agreement (maybe they don't have those in France), but I think anything less is inconsiderate. Off topic, however, it does demonstrate the fundamental difference between what you and I (and apparently the French) think is appropriate behavior. Hence, the variety of opinions in this thread!


steel said:


> American camping is supposed to have everyone as separated as possible in their own private wooded lots. French camping consists of rows of tents 15 feet apart with no separation at all. Then you place your order the night before for what kind of bread you want delivered in the morning.


As a Backpacker, that sounds like moving the "Burbs" to the wilderness. Why bother? I'd just stay home.


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## TBone422 (Nov 7, 2006)

Hmm. So if someone rafts up without permission and I decide to leave, is it allright if I heave his lines without his permission?


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

In BC, you can raft up to a fisherman, and find your self tied to the dock the next morning. Most can pull their boat out from inside yours, tie you back up, and leave , without waking you up.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

sww914 said:


> I'll bet that in the rules and regulations of the public dock it says that you have to accept people rafting up to you.


Yes, definitely!On all government docks.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Capt.aaron said:


> It reminds me of the old dinghy dock in key West, There was room for maybe 5 dinghy's at the sea wall and the other 40 would tie to the last one out and crawl across the other's, If you arived early in the morning, you would be blocked in by 40 boats and have to untie and re-tie your way out. It was communal. I kind of miss those day's, As for public free docking, you get what you pay for.


Courtesy requires one to use a single long painter on ones dinghy, so as many as possible can tie to the same dock. Hiscock made this point in a letter to Sail Magazine once.Solidly tieing bow and stern of a dinghy to a dock is rude, and inconsiderate, and I have often untried such dinghies ,and left them tied by a single , long bow line, so others can use the dock.


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## RocketScience (Sep 8, 2008)

sww914 said:


> I'll bet that in the rules and regulations of the public dock it says that you have to accept people rafting up to you.
> 
> 
> Brent Swain said:
> ...


Could you please provide a link or citation on this. I'd be curious as to the 'language' of this regulation.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

RocketScience said:


> Could you please provide a link or citation on this. I'd be curious as to the 'language' of this regulation.


It may consist of little more than a posted sign that says "Rafting permitted" or even "Rafting required". Most local/public docks in BC, anyhow, have been turned over to local harbour authorities whom I doubt are going to get into a bunch of written regulations.

As a contrast, the transient dock (private yacht club run) at Texada Island specifically bans rafting, but only because of occasional swell and the docks are not on pilings, but fairly widespread cable anchors in 90 feet of water.


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## RocketScience (Sep 8, 2008)

Faster said:


> It may consist of little more than a posted sign that says "Rafting permitted" or even "Rafting required"...


And we have the same here too, but primarily on private docks.



> _...Most local/public docks in BC, anyhow, have been turned over to local harbour authorities whom I doubt are going to get into a bunch of written regulations._


Understandably so, but my concern is with the un-posted, public docks. I've cruised enough along the West coast and North to your neck of the woods to find most public docks lacking any signage at all. With no signage or Governing regs to be had, we're back to the _"it's the local custom"_ argument, which again, holds little water in any court of law if property damage or bodily harm was to be incurred.


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## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

Geoff54 said:


> This is something that I have always been uncertain of - rafting etiquette seems to vary immensely depending on county and region. I'm interested in people's opinions.


I have no experience with rafting up. But last weekend we paddled out to our boat on a mooring and it was gone!!  We paddled anxiously all around and gave up and headed back, only to spot our boat near the shore on a mooring.

When I grew up we never considered messing with anyone's boat not in danger, it just wasn't done for any reason.

Someone actually moved our sailboat to a different mooring. I had her well secured to the mooring line, plus a second heavy line that went around the mast and to the mooring as a slack back up. Whoever moved it just left that line loose, and casually tied up the main line.

I agree that if I'd been there when that happened I would likely have been unpleasant! :hothead


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

skygazer said:


> I have no experience with rafting up. But last weekend we paddled out to our boat on a mooring and it was gone!!  We paddled anxiously all around and gave up and headed back, only to spot our boat near the shore on a mooring.
> 
> When I grew up we never considered messing with anyone's boat not in danger, it just wasn't done for any reason.
> 
> ...


Why don't you want to share? Perhaps someone really _needed_ your mooring ball..


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

L124C said:


> Brings me back to a question I asked in post #61 (don't think anyone addressed it). So, if the person "sharing" your land is injured as a result, are you responsible as a property owner? If they damage your property while "sharing" it, are they responsible? How does that work in France?


No you can't sue over everything there. If you get hurt that's your problem. As far as damaging other people's property I'm not sure if or how the law differs from here.

They have this fun above ground climbing place by Grenoble where they have stuff installed on the trees and all sorts of things to climb through, like a set of barrels hanging in mid air in between two trees maybe 25 feet high. There are steel cables going along all the climbing paths and you hook yourself with your harness up to at least one cable AT ALL TIMES using your two clips. If you fall off and die I'm pretty sure they are not liable. We were 14 year old boys up there using it and it was fun. Our parents decided that we were able to do it safely and that was it.



> Wow!...You ARE liberal! Without even knocking or ringing the bell? What if you and a loved one were spontaneously being intimate on the stairs in the hallway (uncomfortable, I know, but just go with me on this!)? Would you simply ask said landlord to join in?


I think he knocked and then waited a minute or less and then unlocked the door. My mom was like that's something you sure wouldn't do in America.

In these cultures, people rely more on physical means to protect their property and not on expected courtesy and the legal system so much. If you leave your bike outside in public for 5 minutes unlocked it's just expected that it will be stolen.


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## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

chrisncate said:


> Why don't you want to share? Perhaps someone really _needed_ your mooring ball..


LOL, to me sharing implies consent. I was glad to still have my boat.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

L124C said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> > I'm guessing many of our international posters here are somewhat amused by the attitudes expressed by some of the American sailors, here...
> > I think one finds that once one really starts going places, cruisers generally work together, and manage to sort this stuff out...
> 
> ...


I agree completely, but at the risk over over-generalizing/painting with too broad a brush, I do still think that there are meaningful cultural/national differences at play here, that tend to make we Americans somewhat more resistant to the more communal practice of rafting up...

Last fall, I was aboard one of the first boats to arrive in St George's, seeking shelter from another low with the potential to develop into a late-season tropical storm. We scored pole position in front of the White Horse Tavern, but listening to the chatter with Bermuda Harbor Radio, it was obvious we wouldn't have that space to ourselves for very long...










The next morning, when the delightful, kindly lady from Bermuda Yachting Services approached us, I knew she'd be asking if we would mind accepting boats rafting alongside... She was greatly relieved when I made a joke to the effect of "not letting that American ensign deter you from asking", and she countered with her sharp British wit, something to the effect of "Well, with you Yanks, we're never sure, we know how much you value your private space...", or whatever... As usual, everything worked out fine, we rode out a modest blow in close company with about 20 other boats packed in there, turned out to be kind of fun, as is so often the case in such situations...

One other reason I think Americans might be more resistant to rafting, is the comparatively high percentage of those doing their cruising in true "Yacht Style", aboard new boats with flawless, Awlgripped topsides, and often unsuited to rafting, lacking rubrails or suitable attachment points for fenders, and whatnot... At the opposite end of the spectrum, we have those like the French, who favor more rugged, utilitarian boats of bare aluminum, on which any cosmetic damage from rafting will likely go unnoticed...



chrisncate said:


> I freely admit that I do not have the Jon Eisberg level of experience of international travel, adventure and intrigue - but I _have_ experienced enough of the competence level of many of my fellow Chesapeake sailors to know I don't want the majority of them within a hundred yards of my (ex) boat, let alone trust them enough to care to maintain my brightside and brightwork like I do. Way too many incompetents, drunks and dicks to not care if they raft and board my boat without asking me (or me around to oversee things). Maybe boaters are more trustworthy and competent in other locations, but around here they very often just aren't.


No doubt the irony of your post is not lost on some of our international friends... It's no secret that we Americans are often perceived as "know-it-alls", but now the argument is being put forth that we might be granted some sort of exemption from the practice of rafting, largely due to our widespread and fundamental _INCOMPETENCE_ as sailors and boat handlers?

Once again, I'm guessing some of those abroad who might be reading this have gotten another chuckle at our own expense... (grin)


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

skygazer said:


> LOL, to me sharing implies consent. I was glad to still have my boat.


I agree, but this thread has certainly pointed out that many don't share that view. 
BTW, if you have followed this thread, you will know that the comment by "crisncate" you responded to was tongue in cheek (I think it's safe to assume!). Though, similar opinions have been stated here by others. 
Was there any logical reason you could see for them moving your boat? I.e., did your original mooring accommodate a larger vessel?


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> she countered with her sharp British wit, something to the effect of "Well, with you Yanks, we're never sure, we know how much you value your private space...",


She is just mad that we won the Revolution...


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## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

L124C said:


> I agree, but this thread has certainly pointed out that many don't share that view.
> BTW, if you have followed this thread, you will know that the comment by "crisncate" you responded to was tongue in cheek (I think it's safe to assume!). Though, similar opinions have been stated here by others.
> Was there any logical reason you could see for them moving your boat? I.e., did your original mooring accommodate a larger vessel?


Yes, tongue in cheek, that's why I laughed.

No visible reason for the move, lots of empty moorings everywhere, most power boats were gone for the year, only sailboats left. There is a harbor master who could have been notified and who could notify the mooring owner (I rented it) or me. Obviously someone felt they had a reason, just can't figure it. Perhaps some local squabble with the company owning the moorings. My boat was found on another mooring owned by the same company, but no one there knew anything about it. So it had to be someone with knowledge of who owned the moorings.

Could be a bright side, maybe next year I'll ask for the new mooring, it was much closer to the town dock. But my actual mooring was nice, all sailboats around me and 3 or 4 beautiful wooden yawls with wooden spars in perfect shape. Perhaps they didn't like my ugly little modern Hunter nearby? I don't know if the new mooring is normally surrounded by power boats, which swing differently when the wind opposes the tide. I prefer the sailboats, we all swing together.

My mother had a lovely wooden yawl, maybe 40 ft or so, so I like seeing them. I thought they were rather rare, I was delighted to have them as close neighbors. There were quite a few scattered about, and we anchored at one island where we were joined by a friendly couple on one. They did not even own a motor! I watched them sail off their anchor and learned a bit just by watching.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

*Signs, signs....everywhere signs!*

I was in the area, so I took pictures of the signs on the dock in the OP. Turns out, the rules are well spelled out on each piling, including the water taxi section. Though, I took the shots at low tide, and the signs were about four feet over my head (I'm 6 feet tall). Probably would be a good idea to mount the same signs at the ramp were visibility wouldn't be affected by tide. In any case, though I had read them in the past, the "no rafting" provision never registered as I never would consider rafting there. The "no docking during rough weather provision" is rather interesting. I've been at the dock when the weather was nothing short of spectacular, but the surge couldn't get any worse without a Tsunami. A major storm certainly wouldn't chop it up any more!


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> No doubt the irony of your post is not lost on some of our international friends... It's no secret that we Americans are often perceived as "know-it-alls", but now the argument is being put forth that we might be granted some sort of exemption from the practice of rafting, largely due to our widespread and fundamental _INCOMPETENCE_ as sailors and boat handlers?
> 
> Once again, I'm guessing some of those abroad who might be reading this have gotten another chuckle at our own expense... (grin)


Frankly, I could care less what my foreign friends here think about any perceived American arrogance (haughty arrogance is certainly not localized to only the USA). Rafting is not customary as the default on the Chesapeake Bay at public docks (like it or not, I do speak the truth on that), and I stand by my statement 100% about how common it is here to have incompetents behind the tiller/wheel.

Tell me this Jon - is there any difference for the individual in what's involved with legally operating a sailboat in other countries as compared to the USA? In Germany (for example) regarding motor vehicle licensing and operating requirements, you are far better trained and competent there than here. I wonder if there is more regulation and training for those who wish to operate a vessel outside of the USA, and if so - does this perhaps make the whole concept of rafting and boarding unannounced an easier pill to swallow for those who would worry about the safety of their vessel?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

L124C said:


> I was in the area, so I took pictures of the signs


The interesting thing about that is a) rafting clearly is not permitted at that location... and b) who makes the 'too rough' call? Does the dockmaster chase people off at some point? Put out spikes to discourage docking at some point?

A water taxi only zone is another common feature in our area, or at least a 'loading/drop off only zone'... something which would/should have avoided your initial issue, I'd think....


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> One other reason I think Americans might be more resistant to rafting, is the comparatively high percentage of those doing their cruising in true "Yacht Style", aboard new boats with flawless, Awlgripped topsides, and often unsuited to rafting, lacking rubrails or suitable attachment points for fenders, and whatnot... At the opposite end of the spectrum, we have those like the French, who favor more rugged, utilitarian boats of bare aluminum, on which any cosmetic damage from rafting will likely go unnoticed...
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Thanks for the comment. Makes me feel better about my beat up, but strong boat.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

*Mines bigger than yours!*

Here is a prime example of America's willingness to share and the "Ugly American" in one shot. McCovey Cove before last nights opener of the World Series. This was early...many more boats would pack in before the game started (mine certainly not being one of them!)
Apparently, the cat owner wanted there to be no doubt about his nationality, at an American ball park where the game is played almost exclusively by American teams! The flag is about as long as his boat! We've got the biggest flag so...We're #1...We're #1! I'd like to see what would happen if it started blowing 30 knots!
Anyway, I digress. I'm off to open a fender concession at the ball park!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

No one country in perfect. 

As far as Euros putting the United States down because we don't want to raft. Give me a break- would you all rather be speaking German?


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

Faster said:


> The interesting thing about that is a) rafting clearly is not permitted at that location... and b) who makes the 'too rough' call? Does the dockmaster chase people off at some point? Put out spikes to discourage docking at some point? A water taxi only zone is another common feature in our area, or at least a 'loading/drop off only zone'... something which would/should have avoided your initial issue, I'd think....


There is no Dockmaster. Only a security guard you see walking around occasionally (I've never seen him on the dock, and doubt he would know Port from Starboard). The big power yacht I referred to in post 24 was parked overnight in the Water Taxi zone, and was certainly much longer than 40 feet, so it seems enforcement is nil. For the Port Authority, probably the most important line on the sign is the one that releases them from liability!


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