# Sail -vs- Motor Cruising?



## TSOJOURNER

I am new to the site and have been a motor boater all my life. I am in the process of learning to sail and planning my retairment in a couple (2) years. I want to be able to follow the seasons and cruise/liveaboard for a good number of years. I have assumed it will be more economical to do this in a sail boat as compared to a trawler, or other motor cruiser. In your (the group) openion, is this a true?

-------------------------------------------------------------
_"If you don't read the newspaper
you are uninformed, if you do read 
the newspaper you are misinformed."_
*Mark Twain*


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## SanderO

The cost of Fuel? I cruise all spring , summer and fall on a 36' sailboat and use less than 100 gallons of diesel.

jef
sv shiva


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## TSOJOURNER

With the cost of fuel anymore, how could that not be even more true than ever?


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## MysticSkipper

I want to sail into the sunset and hopefully I will, but I have seen some pretty compelling arguments made for motors and motor sailers. Older trawlers can be had for far less $$ than sailboats. That savngs is enough to buy a lot of fuel and some of them use a lot less than I thought. Trawlers often have better passenger accomodations. Again, I am choosing sailing; but it isn't the slam dunk I thought. Here is a very long discussion about it:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11479


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## TSOJOURNER

Here's one of the best stories I can come up with on short notice. A while back our very nice yet Sea Ray owning dock neighbors told us they wanted to meet us in Catalina on a Friday afternoon. So I kind laid things out for them, told 'em we'd be leaving at 1000 for the 5 hour sail over there and if they left at 1400, it would probably be a tie. So we fire up the big Perky that we have, motored for 15 minutes out of MDR and sailed a reach the rest of the way at 7 knots plus. Absolutely perfect day. We got a mooring just before 1500 and fired up the stereo, cock tails and hor's doeovres. Our freinds didn't show up 'til almost 1800, after pumping 300 bucks in gas into there tank, then dealing with not only a clog filter, but eventually an electric fuel pump, somehow delivered by Boat U.S.. Big money...

Anyways, after spending a few days together, we fire up our motor for maybe ten minutes, drop the can and have another sail back just like the one out. They didn't get back in 'til 9 p.m. that night, 'cuz they had to top off their tanks once again in Avalon(another 2 hundred something) plus they had to change filters twice on the way back.........

The moral, and point here, is that we spent less than $4.50 on fuel and didn't have to listen nor smell exhaust for too long, and enjoyed 10 wonderful hours in complete silence, while our friends went through over 4 bills on fuel alone, not to mention the pump and filters. And the time spent upside down in the engine room upside down and rolling like a tin can for a few hours.

That right there should answer all of your questions. Good luck,

Rick


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## sailingdog

It depends... if you are a lousy sailor... might not be the case.


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## Valiente

I'm doing all I can to turn my motor sailer into a sailer motor by avoiding all instances of having to charge my batteries via the alternator. 

I *like* having the engine, and it certainly drives the boat well, but I don't like the noise (I've been told for a 50 hp diesel it's actually quiet), I don't like the smoke (almost clear, but it's unmistakably diesel) and I don't like the cost, even if I only use 40 gallons a season.

It's a sailboat, dammit. If I wanted to motor, I'd drive or fly.


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## jrd22

PDory, welcome to the "other side". 

I don't have a trawler, but I have a 28' commercial crabber (think big-11000lb-runabout) with a 200 hp diesel and sterndrive that we use to commute back and forth from an island and a 34' pilothouse sailboat, so I have some basis for comparison in order to answer your question. 

The things that I feel are about the same cost are: electronics (you can spend as much as you want with either), haulouts for bottom paint, zincs, etc.(about once a year- I haul out more often because of sterndrive services), general maintenance (buffing, waxing, galley repairs, head, etc), moorage(if the same length),insurance(?).

Sailboats are gear intensive and so a lot of sailors (mostly racers) have to have all the latest and greatest gear available which all costs a fortune. Even if you are not a gearhead, we all manage to find a few things each year that we can't sail without. There is a lot more equipment on a sailboat to wear out, from lines to winches, standing and running rigging, and let's not forget sails. This all adds up over the years. Of course, a lot depends on the size, age and type of sailboat you have. I would be hard pressed to put a dollar figure per year on this for my 34' pilothouse, and my costs wouldn't be representative because it has been a total restoration. 

The obvious big expense of the power boat is fuel, you don't move without it, so every hour you can multiply the GPH by the current cost of diesel. In my case it is 7GPH for power, 3/4 GPH for sail when I am motoring which is for sake of argument let's say 50% of the time. We can all do the math(power-ouch!). The big difference I think most people don't think about is that because of the cost of fuel, most powerboaters only run the boat when necessary and in a straight line toward the destination. In other words, they don't run it anymore than absolutely necessary. I am talking about liveaboards and full time cruisers, not the two week vacation. So I think the powerboater, especially someone that is retired on a fixed income will be inclined to not run the boat nearly as much as a sailboat which can be taken out at most times for practically nothing. So not only is the sailboat cheaper from a purely financial aspect, but also more rewarding in all respects because you tend to use it more often, which after all, is the whole point of spending the rest of your life(or as much as possible) on a boat. 

In my case, I know I spend a lot more per year overall on the powerboat, primarily because of fuel, but also engine maintenance. The other cost that will end up biting me is the cost of engine replacement which I figure is somewhere between 8-10 dollars per hour (which is probably twice what a trawler would be). That is a cost the broker will never mention and most owners choose to ignore, but it's a fact that you will put a lot more hours on a powerboats engine than a sailboats, and the cost difference is huge between a 30-50HP engine and one of several hundred HP. 

IMHO the answer to your question is yes, it will be considerably less expensive to liveaboard and cruise on a sailboat than a trawler. Sorry for the long winded answer, it was a good mental exercise for me to go through all of it for myself as well.


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## TSOJOURNER

Thank you all for the response to my question. I will continue to live and learn sailing, and proceed to start the quest for the perfect boat (with in my budget) like a 32 footer for under $ 30,000 . There should be a few out there to pick from , don't you think?

---------------------------------------------------
_Suppose you were an idiot.
And suppose you were a member of Congress....
But then I repeat myself._
*Mark Twain*


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## Cruisingdad

*The Dissenting opinion*

Ohhh boy, how I love a good discussion and debate. Now comes somewhat of the dissenting opinion:

Cost for cost, it is PROBABLY less expensive on a sailboat. Probably. But I am a fan of trawlers... true, full displacement trawlers. THere are not many of those, incidentally. Four names come to mind: Nordhavn, Kadey-Krogen, Selene (by Marlow Marine), and the Cape Horn (which could classify as a small ship).

I love those boats.

Yes, they burn more diesel than the comparably sized sailboat... but not vastly more. They are full displacement hulls, like a sailboat, thus are VERY efficient - but still limited to hull speed.

The living accomodations between the two are vastly differnt. Sorry guys. You cannot compare a Nordhavn 46 to any 40-50 foot sailboat... I might even throw a Cat into that mix. Very large, very comfortable, and VERY safe. THe Nordhavn and Cape Horn especially are two boats that could be argued to be safer than most sailboats. The N46, for example, has a 1100 gallon fuel tank. Sounds like a lot, right? Well, at cruising speed, that puts its range somewhere around 5000-7000 nm. They are made to cross the Pacific and Atlantic, and have done so countless times.

How many nm you guys get off a tank of gas? We all like to argue how we sail and do not need fuel, but that is not really true. Whether for a watermaker, air conditioning, battery charging, or just to make forward progress in the duldrums, you will often need diesel.

I will also give you some of ole CD's experiences. As a weekender, we always enjoyed going out for a sail. THe boat close hauled, the wind flying through our hair, a little Marley on the radio.

As a liveabord... we HATED going to weather. Crap falling all below, slinging across, oops forgot about the lantern, or our typical, "CRAP! HONEY, WOULD YOU PLEASE SECURE THAT DOOR BEFORE I GO CRAZY!!!" We spent countless hours travelling down the ICW and you almost never sail there - which means mototring. We typically found a nice place to drop the hook and that is where we stayed for long periods of time - preferring to explore in the dink.

I will not say that is how EVERYONE cruises... but that was us. In some respects, being a liveaboard takes much of the fun out of sailing, for reasons stated above. It is the cruising that was fun and the poor little dink got a workout.

Thus, as a *liveaboard * versus a weekender or vacationer, the argument could be made that there is not that much of a difference. We had no problem going through the diesel... I will tell you that! Still, there is a big difference b/t filling up a 1100 gallon tank and a 40 gallon tank. We just fill up more often.

But those are just my experiences. I will also say that you will be much more comfortable in a trawler. you will spend 99% of your time anchored, 1% going. Plan accordingly.

One other note worth mentioning: With just a few exceptions, the cost of a trawler versus a sailboat is vastly different. The new Nords, for example, are well over a million. That would sure buy a nice sailboat. If I am not mistaken the oldest Nordhavn 46 has not sold for less the around 350-400k or so - and that is for a 1989 model that has been WELL used. You need a deep pocket for a REAL trawler.

- CD

PS I do not own a trawler, I own a sailboat. I just am not opposed to a trawler and think they make sense for the right person.


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## xort

There is no apples to apples comparison available. I've been looking for several years.

Trawlers can be broken down into two groups; semi displacement hulls and full displacement hulls. The semi hull is grand banks or marine trader and the full hulls are the krogens & nordhavns. The full disp hull will get double the economy of the semi BUT you'll have a much more lively roll in beam seas. The full can be taken offshore more readily. The semi is more stable in coastal waters and hence generally more comfortable. So, in a 36' to 42' trawler you are looking at 2mpg for the semi & 4mpg for the full. A 42' to 46' sailboat will get around 6mpg motoring and with the ballast, won't roll nearly as much as a full disp trawler. Smaller sailboats (mid 30's) can do much better, up to 12mpg.
Now to sails...if you reef early or just motor upwind and in strong winds, your sails will last a long time. If you work your sails hard they won't. How hard is hard? That's the toughest part to analyze and I haven't found any good measure of "mpg" for a set of sails & rigging. Anybody have some numbers for miles sailed in a coastal cruiser and an offshore cruiser?


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## Cruisingdad

Xort,

Typo: The full displacements get better fuel mileage. The semis get worse. THe semi is faster, and more stable to a point, depending on whether soft chimed, etc. Also, most people put stabilizers (passive or active) on their full displacement to stop the roll - or reduce it.

THis is a beautiful boat:










Here is another Nord rigged with sails... (kinda funky looking)...


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## Cruisingdad

BTW, XOrt, here is another very kool boat to add to your semi-disp... I actually put an offer down on one of these... Nice boats, a little unknown...

http://www.albinboat.com/

Albin 43 (sundeck). The sundeck adds a huge amount of space to these puppies.

Take a look and let me know what you think!!

- CD


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## TSOJOURNER

I think that you need to like the actual sailing to enjoy a sailboat. It is definitely cheaper to buy and run a sailboat, but there is a lot more work involved in sailing than in powering.

Me - I could care less where I end up as long as there is somewhere to buy food and beer - it's the getting there that makes me do it.

If you are looking for a comfortable retirement home, get a big powerboat and mosey along somewhere new every six months or so. If you are looking a communion with the wind, the waves and your inner self, get a sailboat.


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## wind_magic

Depends what kind of sailor you are too. When I first started sailing I could never figure out how other sailboats could go so much faster than I was going with the same basic sail configuration. Then one day I was out on the bay and was sitting quietly just enjoying the wind and I started listening to all the sailboats going by, and that's when I figured it out. There are a huge number of "sailors" out there who run their engine all the damn time, or at least whenever the wind isn't strong enough to get them to their destination at hull speed. I think some "sailors" just raise sails for show, and I'm sure motoring your sailboat around uses a lot of fuel.


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## PBzeer

For me, as a cruising liveaboard, I find I do much more motoring than I had anticipated. Particularly, since everywhere I seem to go, it's dead into the wind. There is though, running the motor for battery charging (motor-sailing if the wind cooperates), having to reach an anchorage or marina, or having to navigate a narrow channel. Running the ICW will definitely result in a lot of motor hours, there's just no way around it.

That said, there's still those great days when you can raise the sails and get where you want to go, that make up for the motoring. Not to mention, if something does go wrong with the engine, you still have sails.

If all I was going to do was go up and down the ICW .... and could afford the fuel, I'd have a trawler. As CD points out, much more space, and the knot or two in speed, does make a difference. As it is though, I just try to stay offshore as much as possible, where the chances for sailing are much better.


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## sailingdog

It really depends a lot on how and where you sail. The Chesapeake has light and fluky winds a lot of the time... Buzzards Bay does not... If you're tranisiting the ICW a lot, then motoring will be a common thing for you, but if you're on the open seas, sailing the trade wind routes... properly planned, you can minimize motoring. How else could the Pardeys and others without an engine have so many miles pass under their keels. 


PBz-

That's because you have offended the weather gods... or haven't consulted the pilot charts closely enough.


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## xort

CC
I don't see a typo? What you said is what I said.
The Albin is another good example of semi disp, I only chose 2 for brevity.
The stabilizers will cost you at least a half know of speed and a fair amount of fuel consumption.

John
Your Ontario 32 must get at least 10 to 15 mpg. Significantly better than even a smaller trawler.

I gave up on trawlers when fuel went to $2.50. I'll be buying a bigger LOA to get similar space and pay for that when I haul, dock, paint. The biggest negative is that I'll have a draft of 5'6" and for the ICW, Cheasapeake & Bahamas that's limiting vs. a 3' 6" draft. The next biggest limit is the mast which will have a hard time going up the Erie canal with 17' air draft! So I'll have more expenses of unstepping & restepping.

I know a guy that took an old Morgan and cut the mast down to only use it as a derrick & cut 2' off the keel and built a very economical 'trawler'. I'm not up for that. I wonder when one of the sailboat manufacturers will try something like that? When fuel gets to $5/gallon & a lot of old sailors don't want to mess with sails & rigging anymore...


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## SimonV

Quote "I actually put an offer down on one of these" Quote

CD
Whats the go, have you stopped taking your meds again, a motor boat, a very big motor boat, are you mad or did you win the lottery (again).


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## Giulietta

OHHHH My!!!! Jaysus, Mary, and Joseph, the Saints and Our Lady Of Fatima!!!!!!!! (All together at least 4 times)........

*SOMEONE PLEASE CALL AN EXORCIST.......QUICK......BEFORE CD'S HEAD STARTS SPINNING AROUND AND HE VOMITS GREEN STUFF ALL OVER HIS BED ROOM.....CD DROP THE CRUXIFIX NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

CD its going to be alright, Father Jones is on his way......


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## timangiel

Sailormann said:


> I think that you need to like the actual sailing to enjoy a sailboat. It is definitely cheaper to buy and run a sailboat, but there is a lot more work involved in sailing than in powering.


Think about this one honestly. I've seen people switch from sail to power as they got older because of this. Also power boats usually have shallower drafts and with no mast overhead clearance is not a problem allowing you to go places you may not be able to go in a sailboat.

Whatever you ultimately decide to do I wish you the best of luck, fair seas, and good health.


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## TSOJOURNER

IMO, if you're not a sailor and lust after the passage itself and not only the destination you wouldn't get along too well with a sailboat. There is a certain magic about sailing, and for me if that wasn't there I would never consider a sailboat. For the most part they are slow, cumbersome, and again IMO I think sailors down here (Florida) motor for too often especially when there is beneficial breeze. Inasmuch, I would suggest sticking with the power squadron and try to make it happen financially.


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## TSOJOURNER

My brother is a professional captain and does motor yacht deliveries and the occasional vacation skipper job (also motor yachts). He loves his job, but when he talks about it the things he likes most are walkthroughs on new boats and being at the destination on the vacation jobs, not driving the boat. He really likes the vacation jobs; those are typically a situation where the boat owner pretty much knows what he is doing, but wants a pro along to do the bigger crossings and then puts my brother and his wife in a shore hotel for a few days while the family plays and goes gunkholing in each port. But the boat driving is like long haul truck driving. OTOH, I have never been on the same tack for hours on end (yet); I imagine that gets kind of old also.


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## tomaz_423

There is a nice comparison from the Dashews - the folks who sailed a lot and changed now to power. 
It does not apply directly to most of us (not many of us have boats in 70 to 80 foot range), but the discussion may still be a valid one if we scale down.
They claim power costs less (including fuel, oil, filters and overhauls...) than sails (but they had good sails).
http://www.setsail.com/dashew/Operating_Costs.html


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## ebs001

Tomaz, the Dashews go to great lengths in that artical to explain how much fuel cost them, but only say "Bottom line, this is still significantly less costly than what we lived with under sail." with no explaination for that claim. It sounds to me that they are trying to convince themselves. They sure did nothing to make me believe their claim.


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## sailingdog

Looks like CD finally showed a photo of his real boat..


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## Freesail99

sailingdog said:


> Looks like CD finally showed a photo of his real boat..


Where is the Bbg Grill ?


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## tdw

tomaz_423 said:


> There is a nice comparison from the Dashews - the folks who sailed a lot and changed now to power.
> It does not apply directly to most of us (not many of us have boats in 70 to 80 foot range), but the discussion may still be a valid one if we scale down.
> They claim power costs less (including fuel, oil, filters and overhauls...) than sails (but they had good sails).
> http://www.setsail.com/dashew/Operating_Costs.html


One point about the Dashew's Wind Horse is that she was specifically designed to be fuel efficient with an easily driven hull and a relatively low cruising speed.


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## sailingdog

Freesail99 said:


> Where is the Bbg Grill ?


They're hidden behind the pilothouse.... he was hoping that we wouldn't figure it out if we couldn't see the six bbq grills in the photo.


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## tdw

Cruisingdad said:


> BTW, XOrt, here is another very kool boat to add to your semi-disp... I actually put an offer down on one of these... Nice boats, a little unknown...
> 
> http://www.albinboat.com/
> 
> Albin 43 (sundeck). The sundeck adds a huge amount of space to these puppies.
> 
> Take a look and let me know what you think!!
> 
> - CD


CD,
You've got poor old Alex foaming at the mouth and threatening excommunication at best, burning at the stake being his preferred option.

Me, I can see where you are coming from. I can see a time when I'd go stink boat but it would be used more as a house boat than anything else. To actually travel long distances in one is another thing altogether. Not for me that's for sure. Probably go motor sailor before that but the ability to get under low bridges and up shallow(ish) creeks has appeal.


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## xort

The sundeck has a big drawback, the very tall ladder from the swimstep. I can't imagine hauling a load of groceries up that climb. The sundeck is a dockqueen to me.

The Dashew unsailboat maximized LWL with a 70' custom hull. There isn't anything like that readily available under 50'. that's why I mentioned the sailboat that was converted to a trawler. They maximized LWL and hydrodynamics of a sailboat hull but built a pilothouse to gain some of the comforts of a trawler and cut off the keel & mast.


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## Cruisingdad

tdw said:


> CD,
> You've got poor old Alex foaming at the mouth and threatening excommunication at best, burning at the stake being his preferred option.
> 
> Me, I can see where you are coming from. I can see a time when I'd go stink boat but it would be used more as a house boat than anything else. To actually travel long distances in one is another thing altogether. Not for me that's for sure. Probably go motor sailor before that but the ability to get under low bridges and up shallow(ish) creeks has appeal.


THat was many years back... before we got our 400, after the 380. They are good boats (the ALbins) but will put your stomach to the test in a storm offshore - or so I have heard.

Funny the reactions here, but not suprising. I enjoy CRUISING... and enjoy sailing. I often find that large boats are not as much fun to sail because you lose a lot of the feel of the water. One of my favorites is a Hobie Cat, of all things!! But kinda hard to cruise on a Hobie Cat, huh?

The full disp boats I listed above are very, very well made boats. The C Horn, for example, has submarine-doors (water-tight) Nords are regarded as one of the best cruising trawlers in the world. THey are very comfortable and extremely safe. But they ain't cheap.

Don't worry - I have not put down my deposit on my Nordhavn... yet (smile).
I am still trying to work True Blue's Credit card number out from him. He does not seem to trust me, for some reason. HAHA.

- CD


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## Cruisingdad

xort said:


> The sundeck has a big drawback, the very tall ladder from the swimstep. I can't imagine hauling a load of groceries up that climb. The sundeck is a dockqueen to me.
> 
> The Dashew unsailboat maximized LWL with a 70' custom hull. There isn't anything like that readily available under 50'. that's why I mentioned the sailboat that was converted to a trawler. They maximized LWL and hydrodynamics of a sailboat hull but built a pilothouse to gain some of the comforts of a trawler and cut off the keel & mast.


Yes, proabably any sundeck is a coastal boat. Pretty high COG. The guys I have talked to have enjoyed them... but not in a beam or following sea of any size. Better watch that weather pretty close.

- CD


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## bestfriend

I learned to sail on a Hobie. Nothing like flying the hull out in the ocean to get the adrenaline going.


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## Cruisingdad

bestfriend said:


> I learned to sail on a Hobie. Nothing like flying the hull out in the ocean to get the adrenaline going.


I quite agree. Probably means I would love Giu's tub too. Just needs a BBQ.

- CD


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## bestfriend

...and an icemaker.


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## tdw

Cruisingdad said:


> THat was many years back... before we got our 400, after the 380. They are good boats (the ALbins) but will put your stomach to the test in a storm offshore - or so I have heard.
> 
> Funny the reactions here, but not suprising. I enjoy CRUISING... and enjoy sailing. I often find that large boats are not as much fun to sail because you lose a lot of the feel of the water. One of my favorites is a Hobie Cat, of all things!! But kinda hard to cruise on a Hobie Cat, huh?
> 
> - CD


You hit the nail right on the head. While we are playing at being cruisers (weekend warriors and all that) we can exist in a smallish (34') vessel that is still fun to sail. If we go full liveaboard, the boat is going to get bigger and the time required to pack up our home to go sailng will make day sailing relatively impractical. That's fine if we are crossing oceans or at least making longish coastal passages.

Burrrttttt......when the day comes that we spend most of our time anchored in quiet little bays close to home or rarely do overnight passages then a stinker does start to make sense if only for the internal volume. With said stinker we can then strap a couple of windsurfers, or a laser , or a hobie type cat to the deck and have a fun sailing boat for mucking about in.

Reality is that for fun you'd have something like a Giulietta but for home that's not really practical. Trawler type stinker, 10 - 15 knots max speed etc etc. I could live with that but not just yet.


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## Giulietta

*CD JOINS THE CAST OF

DEADLIEST CATCH

SPOT CD CLICK HERE, CAN'T FIND HIM??? LOOK BELLOW....*

​







*CD THAT IS PROBABLY, WITHOUT A DOUBT, THE FREKIEST UGLIEST OUT OF WACK TOTALY OUT OF PROPORTION DUMBEST STUPIDEST FLOATING TURD WITH A SAIL ON....THAT THING MUST SAIL LIKE A TANKER WITH SAILS...REALLY, WHO THE HELL ARE THESE GUYS TRYING TO FOOL???? RETIRED RICH AMERICANS???? THAT THING IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS, GET THAT FREAK THING OUT OF HERE...MODERAAAAAAAAAAATOR???? WHERE ARE YOU??????????????

GEE MY EYES HURT....LOOK AT THOSE THINGIES HANGING FROM THE SIDE....

HORROR, ITS THE BOAT FROM "THE PERFECT STORM"....HELP!!! JEFF H WHAT ARE YOU DOING???? DELETE THIS...PLEASE....

THAT BOAT LOOKS STUPID...PROBABLY ITS STUPID....GET THE MAST OUT, ITS A POWER BOAT...SACRILEGE....YOU BUY THAT I WILL NEVER TALK TO YOU AGAIN...

PLEASE, JUST LOOK AT THAT...ITS A POWER BOAT TRANSVESTITE!!!!*

PLEASE TELL ME YOU WERE JOKING!!! PLEASE


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## bestfriend

Oh man thats priceless Giu. How many bbqs would you have to sell to buy that?


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## TSOJOURNER

Actually, that Nordhavn looks pretty cool. He's probably getting a knot or 1 1/2 out of the sails, but importantly, the stabilizers are in, not out, so he's also using the sail as VDS's (that's vertical dacron stabilizers) If using sail, even with only a slight bit of economy, on a long voyage, his range is increased dramatically. But for a million and a half, or more? a bit out of my range.


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## Valiente

Great Neptune, that thing makes my barge look like an America's Cup entry.

It reminds me of the battleships of the 1860s, when they'd gone to steel, steam and turrets, but had more or less a full sailing rig "just in case".


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## Cruisingdad

HAHAHA,

Oh, Alex, I have not bought one of these! You are sooo funny. Still, with the exception of the sailing Nord which looks a bit funky, they are awesome boats. Nordhavn just came out with another motorsailor, but I have never been on one or seen it in person - just pictures.

Remember, dear sailors, that Nordhavn, aka Pacific Asian Enterprises, got their start from:

MASON'S! YES, THEY ARE THE ONES THAT BUILT THE MASONS - Which I regard as one of my alltime favorite sailboats. If I am not mistaken, ole Jimmy Buffett bought one of these too!

www.nordhavn.com

They are for the right person... and I think they are cool, but probably not for me right now.

- CD

PS Mr Giu, are you not at the boat? I have not heard about the last package I sent you. It was a very large package filled with pictures of a Nordhavn 47, all the trimmings, lots of room for comfortable cruising, kids, toys, a washer/dryer, king sized bed, maybe even a bathtub. Hmm, I sure hope Mrs. Giu doesn't open it first. They do ship Nord's to Portugal. (HEHEHEHEHEHE..... I bet Giu cuts his business trip short, because in the back of his mind, he is wondering if I am serious, or kidding).

A long discussion awaits you back home, my friend.


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## morganmike

This argument gets twisted so many ways depending on the prejuidiced opinions of whoever is holding forth. It's always funny when people start linking to the Dashews and the Nordhaven home page (which, it seems, is inevitable ... just check the historic threads if you don't believe me.)

In reality, where I presume most of us are forced to live, the discussion doesn't really include 150K+ boats, since 85% of the people I know with boats don't have those kinds of means. Most people own some sort of mid-range production boat in the 25 to 40 foot range, be they either power or sail. Walk down your average dock looking at average boats - and don't tell me these aren't included in the discussion. Talk about what we have, not what we'd like to have in some v-berth wet dream. We live and cruise on what we can. For most average guys bebopping around the sound in the summers for weeks or a month, it's some kind of mid-size cabin cruiser (Sea Ray/Chris Craft/Egg Harbor etc.) or some kind of mid-size sailboat (Catalina/O'Day/Pearson etc.). Average boats. And yes, I know there are many of these power boats worth around 150K or more on paper, but many of the guys I know with nice, big, expensive boats came by them cheap - as they were available for a song from owners who were sick of $1000 gas-ups. And now the new owners are having the same problems.

If you consider the discussion under that criteria, sailing obviously wins cost wise, hands down. Yes, sailing has a lot of gear, but on the average mid-size boat, that gear is neither heinously expensive, nor hard to maintain. A suite of sails is comparable to the cost of an engine, and the service life is similar. Foot for foot up to about 32 feet, a sailboat is roomier than a power boat. Above 32 feet or so, the balance tips in the other direction as a large interior cabin becomes possible on the power boat. The power boat has speed but the sailboat brings the costs of long distance travel within reach of the average guy. Looking at the guys around me, I see lots of tiny outboard driven powerboats out fishing, lots of cabin cruisers going nowhere fast due to ever rising fuel costs, and planty of sailboats being used as both daysailors and liveaboards. Very few people chose to live aboard a power boat in the "average" size range, unless they've got lots of money. That, to me, says it all. Another bit of empirical evidence that speaks to the inexpensiveness of sail is that I've seem several guys on the river give up their sport-fishermen to fish from sailboats.


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