# Spinaker or Genaker - which do you prefer?



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I've experienced many, many days with very light winds since I purchased my first sailboat more than 8 years ago. I'm having serious thoughts about purchasing either a spinaker, or maybe a genaker, something that will allow to me to sail downwind when there is essentially no wind, speeds of 3 to 5 MPH at most. There are a lot of days like that on the upper Chesapeake.

Now, the biggest problem I seem to see about either is I sail mainly single handed. Just about every video I've seen on either sail recommends a crew of at least two or three for a 33-footer, which is the size of my Morgan Out Island. I do not have auto pilot, and when I go forward to raise or lower the main, I just point the boat into the wind, lock the wheel and do things as quickly as possible. 

Any and all comments will be warmly received by this old man,

Gary


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## oysterman23 (Jul 22, 2011)

Hi Gary, enjoy your posts. Good thread. I have a Morgan 24 and have often thought of setting the symmetrical but am too inexperienced with them to even think of it solo... I have a big drifter I set which helps a lot on calm days but look forward to hearing others take on this

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

First, get an auto pilot!

THEN, get the asym spin/genaker or equal. Many find having a sprit ont he front makes tacking a bit easier vs having these tacked "just" in front of the jib tack area. 

I've run a tack line back to the cockpit, some have run socks lines back, but probably easier to run some type of furling system for the assym spin/genaker. I can gybe my asym by myself, along with doing the main and steering at the same time. BUT, I am a decade or two younger than you, and have a tiller I can steer in between my legs. If I had a wheel, a self steering/auto pilot would be needed. or would help. As you do have to move the boat into the new direction as you gybe.

I typically let the spin out about as far as a I can, gybe the main so I am wing on wing for a bit, then gybe the spin. I prefer doing outside line gybe vs inside. Seems to make not catching the spin on the forstay being as I do not have a sprit/pole to make the tack forward of the jib tack. 

You may find a BIGGER code zero style of a headsail to be easier for you to handle. Then again, that is what you could be calling a gennaker......

Marty


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

travlineasy said:


> I've experienced many, many days with very light winds since I purchased my first sailboat more than 8 years ago. I'm having serious thoughts about purchasing either a spinaker, or maybe a genaker, something that will allow to me to sail downwind when there is essentially no wind, speeds of 3 to 5 MPH at most. There are a lot of days like that on the upper Chesapeake.
> 
> Now, the biggest problem I seem to see about either is I sail mainly single handed. Just about every video I've seen on either sail recommends a crew of at least two or three for a 33-footer, which is the size of my Morgan Out Island. I do not have auto pilot, and when I go forward to raise or lower the main, I just point the boat into the wind, lock the wheel and do things as quickly as possible.
> 
> ...


Gary--As one "old bird" to another, before doing anything else sail wise, I suggest you invest in an Autopilot, particularly if you're sailing alone/single handed. We've had "Otto" since 1987 and, frankly, couldn't get by without him, particularly now (age considered).

Once steering's resolved, consider an asymmetric on a furler. You can hoist the thing and leave it up and then deploy and recover it as needed/desired without leaving the cockpit. It can make a world of difference in light air conditions. They're only good up to about 150º off the wind but, the distance added by sailing 30º off DDW is more than made up for by the added VMG. Just gybe within a +/- 5º cone of your waypoint and you'll be good.

There are other solutions, but the foregoing is the most simple/fool-proof.

FWIW...


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

An asym is just gonna pretty much flop around at 3-5 knots without being very proactive.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

For the best performance, and still fairly easily singlehanded, I would get an assym on a furler. However, if you already have a furler on your headstay, consider getting a big, lightweight genoa (and maybe pole it out with a whisker when the conditions warrant). It will give you almost the performance of an assym, but with a lot less hassle. And get a tiller pilot.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

One word, code zero on a furler.

These new furlers work on a torsion rope that is flexible, eliminating the extrusion. You set everything up at your leisure before you get underway. The sail comes out of the bag like a big snake (similar to a snuffing sock), but you don't need to go forward to pull the sock up. Instead, you casually unroll it. More importantly, when it pipes up, you can roll it back up. These things are not quite spinnakers, they are more like the old reacher-drifter.

The only issue with these things is your rig. I'm not sure what you got Gary but you want to get the furler ahead of the rolled up jib, and be able to tension the torsion rope. This works best if you have a fractional rig since you got a place up top higher than the jib. Some people have removable sprits.

We've got this set up, and we're not young sailors, but we have no intention to quit till they burry us.

BTW/all the previous advice on autopilots I think is right on the money no matter what you do with a downwind sail. Single handing gets a whole lot easier!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Although the quadrant mounted, ram driven auto pilots are superior, you can get by with a less expensive wheel pilot with the kind of sailing that you do. (ICW)


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

capecodda said:


> One word, code zero on a furler.
> 
> These new furlers work on a torsion rope that is flexible, eliminating the extrusion. You set everything up at your leisure before you get underway. The sail comes out of the bag like a big snake (similar to a snuffing sock), but you don't need to go forward to pull the sock up. Instead, you casually unroll it. More importantly, when it pipes up, you can roll it back up. These things are not quite spinnakers, they are more like the old reacher-drifter.
> 
> ...


A code 0 is more of a reaching sail than a downwind one though you can get an asym on a furler. I have one on order.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capecodda said:


> One word, code zero on a furler.


If you have to choose just one, a Code 0 would be my choice, as well...

You can't sail upwind, or at least close reaching, with an asymetrical cruising chute, but you can carry a Code 0 pretty deep downwind, if need be... So, seems to me the more versatile choice, and more bang for the buck...

On the other hand, Code 0 furlers are generally pricier than a sock, and chances are you'll have to have a Code O made new for you, whereas there's a better chance you might find a suitable asymetrical chute at a place like Bacon's, or on eBay...

And Gary, I don't even want to hear about it, if you head south again without an autopilot...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Another vote for some sort of effective self steering, and ideally an asymm on a furler. These furlers can be lowered and stowed if not needed, and would work best on some sort of sprit.

An Asymm with a sock is another viable plan, hopefully the sock rigging doesn't get to be a hassle. 

We have both - and still prefer the symmetrical spinn and pole unless it's truly going to be a one-tack reaching fetch and no gybing is likely to be involved. And while it's what we're used to, we have more reliable gybes with the pole and Symm than with the Asymm. But that's with two people and 'otto' steering. Sailing solo is another thing altogether.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

asym on a sock

best and easiest although those new asyms on furlers that are detacheable when the price comes down sound like the best do it all sail really


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

The prices are totally insane on much of this, and after having one model Wheel Steering auto-pilot I'll not have another. I fried two of them in two weeks. They just don't seem to hold up in rough weather while sailing with a following sea.

The best autohelms I've seen are hydraulic, which means I would have to do a major refit of my steering system. I guess this old man will have to stick with what I have, drink more Margarettas, and go back south using traditional methods, motorsailing ain't all that bad.

Thanks everyone for your input,

Gary


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Hi Gary, I'm with the, "first get an auto," gang. How about a vane? As a solo sailor I would put this as priority #1 PERIOD! I dunno how I would even reef without auto while sailing solo, and my boat loves to track straight. Electric autos can't handle any condition, but for sail changes and deck work, they are invaluable. 

On my recent journey we made great use out of our old drifter. It's basically a large nylon genoa that was re-taped to fit our furler. Meant we had to do head sail changes off the furler, but the sail was easy to manage and worked in almost all angles.

I also carry an assym (genniker) with a sock (ATN). It's easy to deploy and manage. It can't run dead down wind, but I hate doing that anyway.

I'm seriously looking into the new Code-0 systems. They look really interesting to me.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I'm a n00b so take everything I say with a grain of salt, but...

I totally love my 170% nylon drifter! It keeps me sailing when other people say "there's no wind" and guests love it because it's brightly colored and and feels festive. I've tried a couple different ways of rigging it, and I've settled on pulling the sheets back through the spinnaker blocks that are almost on the stern. 

It does take a bit to hank it on and run the sheets, but it's a way fun sail to fly.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Yeah, Mike, the drifter sounds like the way to go, at least from a single handed standpoint. As for the wind van steering system, nah - too expensive to put on a 1973 boat. Now, even at my age, I can get things done pretty quickly, including reefing, and setting or dropping the main. Additionally, I'm going to install a lazy jack system this winter, something I should have done during the summer, but just didn't get around to it. Usually, I can drop the main, flake it on the boom and tie it down in less than 3 minutes, during which time I have the boat slowly motoring into the wind in Havre de Grace Basin, which is pretty tight. I've had a few times, though, when the wind was screaming at 40 or more, and getting that main down, flaked and tied down was a real hassle. So, I guess in those instances, an autohelm would have been nice to have. But, when I used the two I had for just a couple days of sailing with heavy, following seas, the gears fried. Turns out the gears were made of nylon and essentially melted. When I contacted the manufacturer about this, they said take it back to the dealer and get a new one, which I did. When the second one fried, all within a couple days of use, I got a refund - no questions asked.

Apparently, the wheel systems were never designed for use in heavy, following seas. This was obvious when I saw those fried, nylon gears. If I were designing a wheel system, I would have never used nylon gears, and I would have used a much heavier duty servo motor, too. That motor was tiny and got really hot after just an hour of use under less than optimal conditions.

See you next year, Mike.

Gary


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

FWIW Raymarine has gotten rid of the plastic gears in their latest wheel pilots.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

On tiller pilots at least, Simrad has stronger versions than raymarine, assuming by fasters post as to what you had previously is a raymarine.

Marty


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Gary,
You only have a couple of years on me and if you wish to sail well into your eighties then get an auto pilot whatever the cost it takes to get one that will do the job. (remember you have a much heavier 33 than most, maybe all the others) And don't worry about it being a 1973 boat, it's the boat you have and probably the boat that is going to carry you I to your eighties (I think the Morgan 33 is a great "old mans boat"), so who cares how old it is. I've come to the conclusion that my 1976 Pearson will probably be parted out (given I buy any new parts between now and then) when I stop sailing. 
Second phase is to get a used light weight 170 that will go onto your existing furler. Along with a whisker pole. You will know when you leave the marina if it is going to be one of those light air days and can change out the jib before leaving the dock. If you get caught in a rising wind, you can just roll up the jib and sail on main alone.
And all this time, Otto has done many silent jobs for you.
Happy sails; I just love spending other people's money.
John


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Glad to hear they got away from those plastic gears - guess I might have to give them another chance.

Yep, that old Morgan is a real heavy boat. I shift to neutral 250 yards before the marina entrance while motoring at 6 MPH and I still come into the entrance at 2 MPH from the inertia. Sure like all that weight when it get nasty, though. 

Thanks again for the responses everyone,

Gary


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Doesnt the 33OI have hydraulic steering? And you fried two already? Sounds odd to me...


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Be willing to be, that the two fried units were at least one size or so too small. Most manufactures recommend, like anchors, if going off shore or in worst conditions, to up size a size or two. Then again, it could be bad manufacturing too.

marty


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## Explorer (Oct 22, 2014)

Top furling asymetrical spinnaker might suit you as it should be able to be rigged to be brought out and in by a single handed sailor, perhaps depending on winch placement.

Definitely worth a look.

If you don;'t want to gybe it you can furl, gybe and then re-deploy on the new tack.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

travlineasy said:


> The best autohelms I've seen are hydraulic, which means I would have to do a major refit of my steering system.


Underdeck systems are definitely more robust that wheel drives. The electro-mechanical rams are fine.

Even if you already have hydraulic steering there is value to a completely separate autopilot system. That approach means redundancy for everything except a rudder or rudder shaft failure.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

T37Chef said:


> Doesnt the 33OI have hydraulic steering? And you fried two already? Sounds odd to me...


No, the boat has conventional wheel/cable steering. Originally, it was a tiller boat, and the pedistal steering system was an add on.

I guess because the boat is quite wide and heavy, the stress on the wheel pilot was overwhelming. It was constantly in motion and the servo motor was really hot in less than an hour. When I provided this information to the factory, the very first thing the tech guy asked is what make and model boat. When I told him he said the system would be fine in relatively calm conditions, but not in heavy, following seas. He suggested an under the deck system, too.

Gary


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

travlineasy said:


> No, the boat has conventional wheel/cable steering. Originally, it was a tiller boat, and the pedistal steering system was an add on.
> 
> I guess because the boat is quite wide and heavy, the stress on the wheel pilot was overwhelming. It was constantly in motion and the servo motor was really hot in less than an hour. When I provided this information to the factory, the very first thing the tech guy asked is what make and model boat. When I told him he said the system would be fine in relatively calm conditions, but not in heavy, following seas. He suggested an under the deck system, too.
> 
> Gary


Gary, do you still have a workable setup for a shortened or emergency tiller? If so, a tiller pilot might do the trick as a less expensive solution, as their attachment points are usually within 18" of the rudder post... you could pick up a basic Raymarine 2000 or Simrad equivalent for a few hundred bucks, and just limit its use to whatever conditions it will handle, which usually becomes apparent simply by the way it's behaving...

But even an underpowered wheel pilot would still be better than nothing, no? Simply avoid using it in conditions where it might become overwhelmed. Doing the ICW, by far the most use an AP is gonna see is in flat water anyway, its real value is mainly in allowing you to leave the helm momentarily to jump below to make some coffee, and relieving the tedium of having to man the helm continuously through some of those long, boring stretches of the Ditch, and so on... Even the lamest AP should be able to handle that, no?

I've hand-steered plenty of boats singlehanded to FL, back in the day... And while I may be younger than you, I'm still way too old for that sh_t, anymore...

)


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Since you're prepared to steer full time anyway, it seems that if your autopilot can't handle heavy quartering seas, then you'd have to steer then for sure. Our recent RM doesn't handle those conditions either, but I'd rather steer then anyway.

We really appreciate the wheelpilot when we are motoring upwind to raise and lower sails, on those long windless days when we can set otto up and read a book while keeping an eye out for debris and traffic, when it's time to go below for a few minutes and put the kettle on. It also 'steers' through our spinnaker gybes, I handle the pole and my wife punches in 20-30 degree course change and handles the sheets etc. If it's too wild to do that we usually douse rather than gybe.. and again otto looks after the heading as best he/she can during that exercise, as it does during mainsail reefing.

Be realistic about its capabilities and make the best use of it when you can.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I still have the old tiller for emergencies, though it was shortened so it would clear the helm. I actually had to use it once, when headed to a cousin's place in the middle reaches of the Choptank River. A pin worked its way loose and dropped out of the steering shaft just as I was entering the creek. I quickly shifted to neutral, went below, grabbed the tiller, and worked my way into the Oxford Boat Yard, where a great mechanic fixed it very quickly and inexpensively. He even had to make a part, which he said was no longer available, and the after-market part would take two weeks to get there. He made a special locking pin from a drill bit, coated it with something to prevent rusting, then put the helm back together. Sure glad I had that tiller onboard.

I'll have to measure the clearance from the tiller to the seat pedestal to see if I can fit a tiller system in there.

Thanks again everyone,

Gary


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

Gary, so get a decent AP. It doesn't have to be heavy duty and handled ALL conditions. Besides you're not going to fly the chute in those conditions. Or are you?

ANYWAY, it's real easy. Get an Assy in a sock. Hoist the sock. Make sure the up/down haul lines are not tangled. Cleat both lines off at separate locations on the foredeck. 
NOW you are ready to hook up the tackline and sheets. You can either use the ATN Tacker and hook it up around your furled jib or you can use your pole; in that case run the tackline down through a snatch block on the stemhead and back to a bow cleat. Then you clip the guy (with a donut) in the pole and attach it to the shackle on the tackline. This gives you control over the tack so you can cant it to windward and you can release the shackle. 
Next you attach the sheets to the clew. NOW you're ready to hoist the sock. Just make certain you re-tie the up/down hauls once it's up and flying. 

When you're ready to snuff the sucker, blow the tack shackle, the sail will collapse back (made easier if you turn more downwind) and you snuff the chute. Drop the sock at your leisure.

Easy, peasy. 

I do this all the time single handed, even fly the symmy single handed too.

Let me know if you wanna go for a sail sometime and watch.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

CPT auto pilots are supposed to be very reliable. They are very simple, and cannot (at least without serious electronic DIY) be hooked up to a chart plotter, but for a simple auto pilot they are good for boats up to 65 feet, so it should handle your boat! It uses a cogged belt. They are steering wheel mounted so simple quick install. Have not heard anything but good things about it, unless you want something a bit more sophisticated.

CPT Autopilot Inc.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I vote for spinnaker for 2 reasons:

I have a large genoa; a reaching sail is not going to add much and I'm not going to carry it to weather (cats need flat sails to windward, since deep sails just pile on leeway).

Most of my Chesapeake sailing is north/south, which means windward/leeward. A spinnaker goes much deeper, adding an aspect a genoa does not have. Code zeros don't go deep unless it is a VERY fast (planing or performance multi) boat.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

pdqaltair said:


> I vote for spinnaker for 2 reasons:
> 
> I have a large genoa; a reaching sail is not going to add much and I'm not going to carry it to weather (cats need flat sails to windward, since deep sails just pile on leeway).
> 
> Most of my Chesapeake sailing is north/south, which means windward/leeward. A spinnaker goes much deeper, adding an aspect a genoa does not have. Code zeros don't go deep unless it is a VERY fast (planing or performance multi) boat.


I'm with you there, except that the premise is a singlehander, which might lean one towards an Asymm despite the performance losses - and because of the reduced equipment required.

But again, picking your days...


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Gary's next boat which I will be happy to crew on! and handle the spinnaker/s crew/s  That is when, the refit is done per specifications 






SY Felicita West REFIT filmed using Professional Drones & Timelapses from Pigeon Vision on Vimeo.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Faster said:


> I'm with you there, except that the premise is a singlehander, which might lean one towards an Asymm despite the performance losses - and because of the reduced equipment required.
> 
> But again, picking your days...


I singlehand a lot. The key is a good auto pilot. And if the breeze is really up, wing and wing is pretty good with a genoa boomed well out (no pole needed on a cat).

Again, asymmetrical work well on cats because the tack can be moved to windward quite a bit, making it a little like a symmetric regarding going deep. This is not the case for sprit mounted chutes.

So perhaps my thoughts are cruising cat specific. It's what I know. Give the limitations of a mono with no pole, a code zero sounds better, perhaps, or at least a chute that can top-down furl.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

miatapaul said:


> CPT auto pilots are supposed to be very reliable. They are very simple, and cannot (at least without serious electronic DIY) be hooked up to a chart plotter, but for a simple auto pilot they are good for boats up to 65 feet, so it should handle your boat! It uses a cogged belt. They are steering wheel mounted so simple quick install. Have not heard anything but good things about it, unless you want something a bit more sophisticated.
> 
> CPT Autopilot Inc.


I was going to suggest CPT as well. They're a completely different breed. Big burly knobs and sturdy innards. Not many features, but who cares right?

I absolutely LOVE my drifter. Twice have used it in 2-3 knots of true wind during engine failures. One of those times we were able to sail out of the shipping lanes, the other time we were able to sail into anchor rather than drift onto a steep-to shore. Both times we carried the sail above 90deg. I consider my drifter safety equipment!

MedSailor


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

MedSailor said:


> ......
> 
> I absolutely LOVE my drifter. Twice have used it in 2-3 knots of true wind during engine failures. One of those times we were able to sail out of the shipping lanes, the other time we were able to sail into anchor rather than drift onto a steep-to shore. Both times we carried the sail above 90deg. I consider my drifter safety equipment!
> 
> MedSailor


To me a drifter is a different sail than an asym or sym spin. I have both a 130'ish drifter/wind chaser if you will, that works well in winds to 6 or so knots true. After than I use the 155 genoa. BUT, for down wind, one of the spin choices is better. Along with one can design them per say so they can be a bit flatter so they can work on a reach and run, or fuller so they work more in the 150-180 down wind range and not very well above the 135 range.

Reality is, which point of sail do you want, and get the sail to work accordingly......AFTER if you single hand a lot, that you get an AP that works in 80-90+% of the conditions you will find yourself in with these sails up.

marty


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Denise, I'll have to go to Vegas and perform in order to make the $25-million to buy the boat. Unfortunately, that just ain't gonna happen. You can, however, crew my old Morgan 33 O.I. anytime you wish and I'll be happy to have you aboard.

Gary


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I just may do that Gary! I was disappointed the first and only time we deployed the assm that came with my boat. It worked! but seemed rather small for a 30ft boat, was about the same size of my genoa that's about a 140


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Just bring some of those wonderful pastries you brought to the Sailnet Rendezvous and I take you anywhere you wish. Damned they were good. 

Gary


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> I absolutely LOVE my drifter. Twice have used it in 2-3 knots of true wind during engine failures. One of those times we were able to sail out of the shipping lanes, the other time we were able to sail into anchor rather than drift onto a steep-to shore. Both times we carried the sail above 90deg. I consider my drifter safety equipment!


I'd +1 on MedSailor's comments here. It's amazing how little wind it takes to fill this sail and keep us moving. And with it on the furler, we can sail from DDW to a close reach. It's tough to get to a full close haul, but it works well for all other points. The only downside (for us) is that we have to do headsail changes off the furler. We also carry an assym (gennaker) in a sock, but b/c the drifer is so much easier to manage, we usually use it.

On the auto question, our Ray electric tiller pilot (X-5 GP )is significantly undersized for our boat (rates at 16,000# vs our 30,000# boat). We only use it during benign conditions, mostly when motoring or under light winds/seas. But it has worked just fine (so far) under these conditions. I know I don't have to say this, but under sail balance is critical. We can use the TP if seas are gentle and we're well balanced. When things pipe up, we use our vane.

Gary, I can't imagine life without some sort of autopilot, and I always have two on board (me and spouse). I'm worried for you my friend. Get an auto!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Gary, what do you have for a headsail now? I didn't read all the post carefully, so sorry if it's been answered. Poling out a genny will usually get reasonable downwind performance. 

If you're issue is deep reaching, light wind performance, clearly a spinn is the way to go. However, a sym is just silly for a singlehander IMO, especially with no self steering. An light cloth asym that is cut for deep downwind would be the way to go. If your jib/genny is doing fine on shallower reaches, I don't see why one would need a downwind sail that can perform there too. JMO.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Currently, I'm using a 100-percent jib that is quite heavy, on an Alado roller furling system. The current rig sails very well with winds of 7 knots or more and really does well in heavy weather. But when the wind is under 7 I'm lucky to make 2 knots when sailing wing on wing. I see a lot of boats with spinnakers that appear to be sailing much faster and they're in the same size category as myself.

After looking at several videos of boats running spinnakers I am convinced this is not something you can readily do single handed, even with auto-pilot. Therefore, a lightweight drifter seems more practical for my purposes. At least I hope this is the case. 

Gary


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

A gennaker is a good answer. Although it will not work DDW you can rig it as you do with a spinnaker, and that means it will work as a spinnaker although a little bit smaller.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

travlineasy said:


> ...
> After looking at several videos of boats running spinnakers I am convinced this is not something you can readily do single handed, even with auto-pilot. Therefore, a lightweight drifter seems more practical for my purposes. At least I hope this is the case.
> 
> Gary


You could readily do this singlehanded, provided you are careful, think things out beforehand, and take it down if the wind increases substantially.

I sail both asymmetrical and symmetrical spinnakers, and will also run wing and wing in the right conditions. If I were to choose one, it would be the symmetrical.

A spinnaker will add something new and exciting to your sailing, plus allow you to sail instead of motoring in many situations. Here are two in light winds:









and another, this time asymmetrical:


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

travlineasy said:


> Currently, I'm using a 100-percent jib that is quite heavy, on an Alado roller furling system. The current rig sails very well with winds of 7 knots or more and really does well in heavy weather. But when the wind is under 7 I'm lucky to make 2 knots when sailing wing on wing. I see a lot of boats with spinnakers that appear to be sailing much faster and they're in the same size category as myself.
> 
> After looking at several videos of boats running spinnakers I am convinced this is not something you can readily do single handed, even with auto-pilot. Therefore, a lightweight drifter seems more practical for my purposes. At least I hope this is the case.
> 
> Gary


I've run my drifter from the jib halyard, and tacked/gybed with the sheets inside. Basically I used it exactly as a genoa, just without hanks. Nearly zero learning curve that way.

MedSailor


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Jim, looks like fun, but I'm not sure I could do all that's required while single handed sailing, even with Otto.

Gary


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> I've run my drifter from the jib halyard, and tacked/gybed with the sheets inside. Basically I used it exactly as a genoa, just without hanks. Nearly zero learning curve that way.
> 
> MedSailor


Now, that sounds like a practical solution.

Thanks,

Gary


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

jameswilson29 said:


> You could readily do this singlehanded, provided you are careful, think things out beforehand, and take it down if the wind increases substantially.
> 
> I sail both asymmetrical and symmetrical spinnakers, and will also run wing and wing in the right conditions. If I were to choose one, it would be the symmetrical.
> 
> ...


I'm with you as long as I have a crew (or maybe even solo on a quiet and perfect day), I prefer old-school sym. Easier navigation on a deep broad reach or run, since you can sail the rhumb line without blanketing the kite.

I admire your setup for singlehanding the spinny, but you may not get that many converts ;-).

Anyway, I am a fan of spinnakers for cruisers. Once helped a neighbor and his friend (both experienced, but kite virgins) deliver a new-used C&C-34 from Mobile Bay to New Orleans "outside" the islands. This boat looked to have been a club-racer, so had the gear and once we got it set, we broad reached all day at 7 instead of 4 or 5 knots, it won them over. It can turn a boring light air 2-knot downwind drift into an interesting 4-knot sail, and avoid motorsailing and breathing your own exhaust all day.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Just did a search at Bacon Sails. The second sail on this list looks good as it's free standing. I don't recall if you have a headsail furler, but either way it makes this one easier to hoist and douse without the hanks. Also, without hanks, you can ease the halyard(several feet) to make the sail into a fuller shape for running, or tighten the halyard for reaching.


Catalog Number: 56-RONN-105

Luff: 36' 0"

Leach: 33' 4"

Foot: 22' 0"

Head: 0' 0"

Price: $445.00



RADIAL HEAD GENNAKER 1.5 oz RIPSTOP NYLON. COLORS WHITE, GREEN AND RED. 2 1/2" BRONZE PISTON HANKS SET TO GROMMETS WITH VINYL PROTECTORS ON LUFF TAPE. SEVERAL SEWN PATCHES UP TO 3" x 2'. MAY NEED MINOR RESTITCHING - FEW SNAGS... MINOR STAIN/SOIL/YELLOWING. GOOD+. NO BAG. 10 lbs.

---------------------
Catalog Number: 91-SAED-117

Luff: 37' 4"

Leach: 35' 6"

Foot: 24' 4"

Head: 0' 0"

Price: $375.00



REACHER / DRIFTER 1.5oz RIPSTOP NYON BY NORTH. COVERED WIRE LUFF. FREE STANDING. BLUE SEWN ON NUMBERS. SINGLE PACTH NEAR FOOT 6". GOOD+. NET BAG.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I appreciate the info Medsailor, and I'll contact Bacon Sails first thing in the morning.

Gary


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There is interesting anecdote that might have actually been Bacon that said to me. The most popular/useful sails are less frequently available on the used market. I was looking for a light wind asym. Couldn't find one.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> There is interesting anecdote that might have actually been Bacon that said to me. The most popular/useful sails are less frequently available on the used market. I was looking for a light wind asym. Couldn't find one.


I'm sure that's true. I found my drifter to be so valuable that I kept it when I sold my boat. Nylon sails also keep forever, and don't take up as much space as dacron, so it's easy for people to just keep them instead of deciding they should sell them. My last boat had a S-spinnaker that was dated 1978. It was still useable.

MedSailor


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

travlineasy said:


> No, the boat has conventional wheel/cable steering. Originally, it was a tiller boat, and the pedistal steering system was an add on.
> 
> I guess because the boat is quite wide and heavy, the stress on the wheel pilot was overwhelming. It was constantly in motion and the servo motor was really hot in less than an hour. When I provided this information to the factory, the very first thing the tech guy asked is what make and model boat. When I told him he said the system would be fine in relatively calm conditions, but not in heavy, following seas. He suggested an under the deck system, too.
> 
> Gary


Ok, I asked because my friends 33 OI has a hydraulic wheel steering, guess it was an option? or someone added it early on because they have had the boat since 1980.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

Gary do you have the option of running twin genoas ? good for ddw and pole one out


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> There is interesting anecdote that might have actually been Bacon that said to me. The most popular/useful sails are less frequently available on the used market. I was looking for a light wind asym. Couldn't find one.


Hmmm, not sure I agree with that one... If free-flying sails were, indeed, "popular" and considered "useful" - at least among cruising sailors - I would expect to see more of them actually _USING_ them... )

Funny incident from the start of the Caribbean 1500, which may or may not indicate how many asymetricals are more for 'show', and are in fact rarely used...

The Jeanneau 54 CLUB CARP hoisted their chute for the start... When it eventually came time to douse it, it had become "jammed" at the masthead, and the skipper had to go aloft to free it...

)


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

white74 said:


> Gary do you have the option of running twin genoas ? good for ddw and pole one out


Yes, the Alado furler is set up for twin sails. Never really thought about doing that. 

Gary


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, not sure I agree with that one... If free-flying sails were, indeed, "popular" and considered "useful" - at least among cruising sailors - I would expect to see more of them actually _USING_ them... )


I think there is some truth their lack of use and how they may be as desirable for show. Of the entire wind clock, the range one would use a DDW sail is by definition the minority of the time. Still, for those that value a deep down wind sail, I think asyms are very popular (and get everyone all excited at the pretty colors.) 



> Funny incident from the start of the Caribbean 1500, which may or may not indicate how many asymetricals are more for 'show', and are in fact rarely used...
> 
> The Jeanneau 54 CLUB CARP hoisted their chute for the start... When it eventually came time to douse it, it had become "jammed" at the masthead, and the skipper had to go aloft to free it...
> 
> )


That's on my list of life's most undesirable moments. I know CLUB CARP, she's in a bareboat charter fleet up here. I'm surprised she even carries a chute and wonder if it was a loaner.

I think they have 3 Jeanneau 54DS now. NAMASTE usually makes the trek down to Tortola for her winter charter slip. I wonder if it's a customer trip. Seems odd that they would use the 1500 for a delivery trip. Did you get the skippers name? I met Scott T at Slip 14 in Nantucket this past summer. He was nursing a chardonnay, while his passengers were galavanting on the island. Seemed like a pretty good guy.

Of course, if it was a bareboat client (would seem odd for a passage like that), who knows what could go wrong.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> I think there is some truth their lack of use and how they may be as desirable for show. Of the entire wind clock, the range one would use a DDW sail is by definition the minority of the time.


Thanks to the configuration of the Chesapeake Bay and Delmarva coast, there are plenty of opportunities for mid-Atlantic sailors to sail DDW. The Bay runs roughly North-South. The Delmarva coast runs SW-NE. With the Bermuda High and the coriolis effect, the summer winds on the Chesapeake Bay are predominantly S-SE-SW and light. They reverse course in the Winter and strengthen. We can sail in rare West winds only after a low passes through.

Any one in the Bay region who cruises any longer distances will encounter this phenomena. On my cruises, I seem to spend 90% of my time either close-hauled or running. On almost every Delmarva coastal trip, I get to fly my spinnaker, a rare event on the river(s).

As a side note, I believe one of the reasons the Annapolis to St. Michaels route is so popular, (in addition to the short distance = 25 n.m.) is the opportunity to sail S.E. to Bloody Pt. and N.E. up the Eastern Bay, instead of the usual North-South cruising routes.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

white74 said:


> Gary do you have the option of running twin genoas ? good for ddw and pole one out


Not sure how much of an advantage that would be for much of the sailing Gary seems to be doing. There's little performance boost over sailing deep wing and wing using the main, the primary advantage of twin headsails in my view is on longer passages offshore, in larger seas, when you might be running to twins day after day after day on a classic tradewinds passage...

I still think many people - sailmakers included - tend to underestimate the versatility of a Code 0 type sail... I can fly mine anywhere in between an AWA of roughly 60 to 180 degrees, and while it's tough to beat the power of a cruising asymetrical within it's narrower wind range, I'd still say that over the years I've been using a Code O, no other sail in my inventory has so consistently made the difference between choosing to sail, or reverting to motoring...

I keep hearing that a Code 0 cannot be carried deep... Seems to me those who assert that are simply lacking a bit of _Imagination..._

)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> That's on my list of life's most undesirable moments. I know CLUB CARP, she's in a bareboat charter fleet up here. I'm surprised she even carries a chute and wonder if it was a loaner.
> 
> I think they have 3 Jeanneau 54DS now. NAMASTE usually makes the trek down to Tortola for her winter charter slip. I wonder if it's a customer trip. Seems odd that they would use the 1500 for a delivery trip. * Did you get the skippers name? * I met Scott T at Slip 14 in Nantucket this past summer. He was nursing a chardonnay, while his passengers were galavanting on the island. Seemed like a pretty good guy.
> 
> Of course, if it was a bareboat client (would seem odd for a passage like that), who knows what could go wrong.


The only information I've seen on the 1500 site, lists the owner of CLUB CARP as Jeff Carpenter...

Definitely, one of my biggest fears is having to go up the rig offshore... I'm presently replacing my headstay and refurbishing my furling unit, was just up to the masthead 2 days ago to remove it, and even the barely perceptible swaying to the slightest breeze when sitting at the dock is more than enough for me...

)


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

We tend to fly the assy in breezes under 16~ish and rotate it back with the pole when getting deep. Over that we stick to white sails with just the two of us aboard.
I'm with you Jon, keeping my feet on the deck is where I prefer them to be, fortunately the misses handles rig duty at the dock or under way.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Now, to me, that's a scary photo. This old man ain't going up the mast anymore. I'll cut the damned mast down first.

On a more serious note, I did a lot of Youtube searching during the past two days, trying to figure out what to do. I saw several vids of people using asymmetrical rigs single handed and it really didn't seem to be any more difficult than some of the other crazy things we do every day while sailing. So, this coming week, when I get a rare day off from the music biz, I'm headed down to Atown and visit the folks at Bacon Sails. They have a couple asymmetrical rigs there with snuffers and bags at reasonable prices. If it doesn't work out, well, they'll go back, or on to Ebay. Won't be the first time. 

Gary


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## sonosail (Mar 17, 2008)

The most workable solution on a low budget.......
Get a relatively high clewed, nylon 'drifter' with an independent, low stretch rope or wire luff. If necessary, you CAN even buy a used one that is too big and make it fit. Flattish, nylon sails are relatively easy and cheap to cut down to the right size. You won't be able to keep it filled dead down wind, but your vmg to leeward can be greatly improved. Don't make the LPG too big or it will just hang there. Then, if you get adventurous, lash the helm and set a wHisker pole to weather, with the clew as far forward as the strength of the wisker pole will allow.(a judgement call). Again, you don't want the sail to be too big or it will be worthless. 
I do a lot of non-spinnaker, downwind sailing, The LPG of the sail should be at least 10 % LESS than the length of the pole. 
Try the sail before you spend on any of the other stuff. An effective auto-pilot for a boat of this size will be a fair amount of change. You can actually make your own whisker pole if you are handy.
One thing I forgot: If you already have a furler, you will have to figure out how and where to fasten the tack of the drifter. There are too many variables for me to advise you on this. (how your spare halyard is run, where the drum is positioned, etc.) But this is something you will need to pay attention to for any extra, downwind type sail. . 

rb
sailboatdata.com


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

blt2ski said:


> First, get an auto pilot!
> 
> THEN, get the asym spin/genaker or equal. Many find having a sprit ont he front makes tacking a bit easier vs having these tacked "just" in front of the jib tack area.
> 
> ...


DO invest in an autopilot, preferably one with a remote control so that you can control from remote locations on the boat, such as from the bow, the 'head' .... or even overboard. 
For 'light winds' downwind my preference is a more 'flattish' cut asymmetrical, less draft than an 'all purpose' A-spin. With such a configuration you will be able to "tack"-downwind and at sailing angles that vastly increase the apparent wind. 
Such a flatter cut A-symm is quite useful in above a beam reach when the tack-line is pulled tight. 
Additionally, I would suggest the choice of relatively shorter %LP A-spin as such will allow better gybing 'behind' or 'through the foretriangle' for a single-hander ... just like how one "gybes to the inside" for a large genoa, instead of an 'outside' or 'out and around' the front of the boat. 
Instead of a 'big' 170-180% LP Asymm, I would suggest less than 170% LP ... if youre not all that 'confident' or new to spinnakers.

For light winds, Id also suggest forgoing a 'sock' - too damn complicated for a newbie and adds unnecessary complexity and 'stuff' to trip over - IMO. Without a 'sock', for raising ... just get it up 'fast'; for dousing (in rising winds) just _tack_ through the eye-of-wind and heave-to, slacken the tack line and full tension on the sheet - to lay and 'stick' the spin onto the windward side of the main, ... then 'peel' the spin into a bag/turtle (cant have 'sharps' in the rigging).
If you elect to use a 'sock', use much longer sock 'dousing/raising' lines 'double-blocked' to the side rail and led all the way back to the cockpit!!! BTW - you can 'reef' any spinn with a 'sock'.

Wing-n-wing in the 'light and flukies' is a good technique with any spinn when DDW. Use ultra light Spinn sheets.

;-)


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

goo points richh

sometimes the sock made dousing more cuumbersome...it mostly had to do with waves for us that would sway the boat into or off the wind enough for the sock to become hard to pull down

and while we didnt use this asym a lot when we did it was a delight

the thing was we were sailingf such a tank of a boat the asym really didnt improve speed that much

we would get just under a knot if speed increase over white sails

I was always into setting more sail as I love to do fast crossings, however my captain hated the idea of simply taking out the whole sock and rigging it etc(despite the boat being midsize at 37ft he had a big RIB damn smack in the middle of the foredeck, and THATS the reason he hated setting this sail)

I bet you he would if been damn happy with one of the new code 0 furling sails if, just if it was left on all the time

however Im not familiar with those new sails and if indeed the furlers are left on all the time

rich?


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

It seems that many of the 'free flying' furlers are still not 'ready for prime time' or of those that are are prohibitively expensive. There is a separate thread for these furlers but not much activity. ;-)


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

RichH said:


> It seems that many of the 'free flying' furlers are still not 'ready for prime time' or of those that are are prohibitively expensive. There is a separate thread for these furlers but not much activity. ;-)


YEAH! That's MY thread! (crickets)

I was hoping that furlers were as good as the add broceures show them to be, mainly because I dislike the alternative. The snuffer sock. I really think snuffers are over-rated. All those pulleys and lines dangling around the foredeck.... If Gary's afraid of having to go up the mast, I'd say avoid the sock. There's too many things to go wrong and get stuck up there.

Tom


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

There is lots of discussion of gennakers, drifters, code 0, etc. etc. Are there uniform definitions of the various headsails, or are we largely talking about various vendors' trade names. I would love a complete list of the headsail alternatives with a clear description of each. I also am not quite clear on the ideal relationship of the luff of the headsail to the roughly 39 foot P on my boat.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

tweitz said:


> There is lots of discussion of gennakers, drifters, code 0, etc. etc. Are there uniform definitions of the various headsails, or are we largely talking about various vendors' trade names. I would love a complete list of the headsail alternatives with a clear description of each. I also am not quite clear on the ideal relationship of the luff of the headsail to the roughly 39 foot P on my boat.


This link has a good selection of shapes that I think help. They call them A0 and A1 instead of "code 0" or "code 1".

Drifters are intended to be sheeted to the main boom end, but that's not how I use mine. Mine is much more like an A0 or A1 from the link above. I sheet it to the deck at the stern quarter.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> This link has a good selection of shapes that I think help. They call them A0 and A1 instead of "code 0" or "code 1".
> 
> Drifters are intended to be sheeted to the main boom end, but that's not how I use mine. Mine is much more like an A0 or A1 from the link above. I sheet it to the deck at the stern quarter.


The boom end? I don't think I can quite picture that.

After some experimenting with my drifter I have taken to rigging it through the spinnaker blocks on the stern of the boat. I'm happy to hear that this isn't a totally stupid way to do things.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Gennaker, Cruising chutes, Drifters, Flashers.. many are indeed sailmaker's names for the generic Asymmetrical spinnaker that can be flown without the traditional spinnaker pole. There are a variety of possible shapes and cuts depending on the primary anticipated apparent wind angle ranges where you'll expect to use them. Most are probably general purpose for broad to beam reaching scenarios.

Drifters used to be essentially nylon genoas, often at 170 or 180% LP.. as such might be useable close hauled in very light winds, but you needed to be ready to change up in a hurry when the wind came back. Shapes generally went out the window in a hurry. Plenty of older boats are likely to still have a 'genoa/drifter' in their inventory, often well beyond their 'best before' dates  Our former boat had a hank-on 'drifter' like this. We never sheeted to the boom end, though I've seen photos of that type of setup.. we sheeted from blocks near the stern if the track didn't accommodate the angles.

The Code series sails, I believe, fall more into the old-style drifter category than the typical Asymm cruising spinnakers. Not actually sure if Code series sails are meant to fly off the headstay like a flying sail?? or if they are usually in a foil or hanked on.. 

I think with either Symms or Asymms the luff is usually similar to the I measurement, the shape and curve of the sail allows the actual tack(s) to be some distance above deck, though on the Jboat style sprit setup I imagine the luff is something longer than the I.

I'd consult a sailmaker for general dimensions, even if you were thinking of picking up something used.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Faster said:


> Drifters used to be essentially nylon genoas, often at 170 or 180% LP.. as such might be useable close hauled in very light winds, but you needed to be ready to change up in a hurry when the wind came back. Shapes generally went out the window in a hurry. Plenty of older boats are likely to still have a 'genoa/drifter' in their inventory, often well beyond their 'best before' dates


Hah!  That describes my drifter exactly! It's probably a 1974 just like the boat.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

The problem with the old nylon drifters is that the luff is usually a wire. The weight and stiffness of that wire prevents good luff shape downwind ... lessens the ability of the tack to 'rise' like a spinnaker. So, if you have an old nylon drifter, and nothing to do you spare time, consider to replace that wire with a super-light/super-strong modern polymer line such as amsteel, etc. 
The good thing about drifter cuts and shapes are that they usually have a big powerful 'shoulder' up high in the sail, so your halfway there to an A-spinn shape ... all except for that damn luff wire.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

RichH said:


> The problem with the old nylon drifters is that the luff is usually a wire. The weight and stiffness of that wire prevents good luff shape downwind ... lessens the ability of the tack to 'rise' like a spinnaker. So, if you have an old nylon drifter, and nothing to do you spare time, consider to replace that wire with a super-light/super-strong modern polymer line such as amsteel, etc.
> The good thing about drifter cuts and shapes are that they usually have a big powerful 'shoulder' up high in the sail, so your halfway there to an A-spinn shape ... all except for that damn luff wire.


Mine doesn't have a wire, but it does have two hanks.

Instead of hanking it on should I be letting the luff fly free? And remove the hanks to reduce weight?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> YEAH! That's MY thread! (crickets)
> 
> I was hoping that furlers were as good as the add broceures show them to be, mainly because I dislike the alternative. The snuffer sock. I really think snuffers are over-rated. All those pulleys and lines dangling around the foredeck.... If Gary's afraid of having to go up the mast, I'd say avoid the sock. There's too many things to go wrong and get stuck up there.
> 
> Tom


In my experience, snuffers are pretty reliable... One of the keys to avoiding a snafu, is not to allow the control lines to "dangle" once the sock is hoisted, to begin with. Both the downhaul and the uphaul part of the continuous line should be kept taut, and the downhaul ideally led thru a ratchet block fixed to the rail, away clear of the mast... Of course, any time you hoist a spinnaker, there's a potential for some sort of drama or wrap, but I've never had a real problem using a sock, and more than likely it has avoided a worse problem that might have occurred without it... The snuffers from ATN are an extremely reliable piece of gear, when used properly, and with due caution...

Now, I have no firsthand experience with any of the new top-down furlers, but I have been using a continuous line furler on my Code 0 for over a dozen years... In effect, it's a 'Bottom-Up' furler, without a torsion rope the luff of the sail starts rolling up, until finally the rest of the sail follows suit... It works fine, but the sheet must be taken well forward to a snatch block on the rail to exert a strong downward pull on the leech prior to furling... Otherwise, you can wind up with some loose, unfurled sail up top, not good... Whenever I have a new Code 0 made for my boat, I'd like to have a high-torsion rope sewn right into the luff, then it should approximate the workings of a conventional furler... But all things considered, if I had to choose between making the mistake of leaving my spinnaker up too long before having to douse it in difficult conditions with the snuffer, or having to do the same with the smaller and flatter Code 0 on a furler, I'd still rather have to deal with the snuffer, I think it's more manageable when you're overpowered... Only downside is, you have to go forward to douse it, whereas the Code 0 - aside from setting the aforementioned sheet lead forward - can be furled from the cockpit...

Top-down furlers first appeared on the big superyachts, where the size of the snuffers simply became unmanageable... On boats like that, especially when being electrically or hydraulically driven, they're obviously a good way to go... On boats the size most of us typically sail, however, I'm not sure there's any real advantage, and for the time being they're certainly a lot more expensive than an ATN sock...

And, one thing I can do with my snuffer, that can't be done with a furler. One can actually _REEF_ your chute, if need be, in squally conditions, or whenever...

Hopefully, no one with a camera will ever see me doing this, that would be an even more embarrassing photo than one of me on my folding bicycle...

)












christian.hess said:


> I bet you he would if been damn happy with one of the new code 0 furling sails if, just if it was left on all the time
> 
> however Im not familiar with those new sails and if indeed the furlers are left on all the time
> 
> rich?


That's not really an option with a true light air sail, as they it would require a UV cover of Sunbrella or similar to protect it...

Boats such as the newer Tartans, and the new Blue Jacket 40, are using what they're calling "reachers" permanently hoisted on a headstay forward of a self-tacking jib, and while they may have the 'look' of a Code 0 sail, they're really more of a high-clewed, fuller cut genoa, than a true light air sail... At least, that's the way it appears to me...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

how do those people like it? I bet its an easier sail to use than say an asym on a sock on its own halyard

the captain I was reffering too thought THAT was a hassle

just wondering really!

jeje

peace


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

FWIW,

Asyms are fun as hell, but it's when SHTF that you have to worry. Hour glasses, wraps around the forestay, lazy sheets dragged under the boat, etc etc! 

I've seen snuffers jam and you have to be ready to take down the kite the old fashion way.
In a good breeze, the sail can fill as you are raising it and pull the control line right out of your hand! 

You really need an autopilot if you are alone and a situation arises. You may plan to fly the kite in only 5-10 knots, but if weather suddenly moves in, you will be dousing it, not in 5-10 knot weather, but in the 10-15 knot range. And getting the sail down, can sometimes be the hardest part!

ETA: when stuff does go wrong, it sometimes takes muscle to wrestle down a chute. If you are not in good shape, it could be difficult.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

weinie said:


> I've seen snuffers jam and you have to be ready to take down the kite the old fashion way.
> In a good breeze, the sail can fill as you are raising it and pull the control line right out of your hand!


Or, it can lift a lightweight right off the deck, if he or she refuses to let go... 

That's why I think the control line should be led thru a ratchet block clipped to the rail...

I've never seen an issue with a sock, that couldn't be resolved in the worst-case scenario by simply letting the sheet run free, and turning the sail into a fluttering flag to be snuffed, instead of wrestling with a chute that is still filled and drawing...


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Or, it can lift a lightweight right off the deck, if he or she refuses to let go...
> 
> That's why I think the control line should be led thru a ratchet block clipped to the rail...
> 
> I've never seen an issue with a sock, that couldn't be resolved in the worst-case scenario by simply letting the sheet run free, and turning the sail into a fluttering flag to be snuffed, instead of wrestling with a chute that is still filled and drawing...


My snuffer's fiberglass hoop cracked on me this year when the chute decided to fill in about 20 knots when I was trying to bring it down. I was solo and too lazy to head aft to ease the sheet or blow the tack. I pulled too hard on the control line and it broke right through the hoop. Had to douse with the hoop still at the top. The edges were so sharp it put 3 tears in the sail. arghhh!


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

The salesperson at Bacon Sails, fortunately, previously owned a Morgan 33 O.I. and said using an asymm single handed was actually fairly easy, and he would be more than happy to walk me through the process. If I can't figure it out, I'll bribe Jon with some of my Green Coconut Margarettas to go sailing with me and show me how to rig this thing when warm weather returns to the upper Chesapeake. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

travlineasy said:


> The salesperson at Bacon Sails, fortunately, previously owned a Morgan 33 O.I. and said using an asymm single handed was actually fairly easy, and he would be more than happy to walk me through the process. If I can't figure it out, I'll bribe Jon with some of my Green Coconut Margarettas to go sailing with me and show me how to rig this thing when warm weather returns to the upper Chesapeake.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Here's some articles I found helpful:
Inside the Asymmetrical Spinnaker
Rigging the Asymmetrical Spinnaker
Trimming the Asymmetrical Spinnaker


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

thanks for the links - I just bookmarked them and will read them later tonight.

Gary


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

Thanks for the links and discussion as well. As everyone was using terms that turn out to be ill-defined, I was getting confused. I have also been trying to think of what to do for light air, and since I don't race, considering a used sail. Most of the used sail inventories just describe a headsail and its material, without too much clarity as to the kind of cut if its not simply a plain old genoa. Do you all believe that a masthead crane is essential for an assymetric headsail?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

tweitz said:


> ....Do you all believe that a masthead crane is essential for an assymetric headsail?


Any spinnaker halyard should exit ABOVE the forestay, and be free to 'gybe' back and forth without interference.

On Fracs this can be accomplished simply by exiting above the forestay itself.. on Mastheads the only way this will be true is with some kind of extension/crane above the forestay connection. So yes, IMO it is essential.

Flying an Asymm off a jib halyard, the halyard will often be chafing across the forestay, and esp after you've hoisted on, say, the port halyard and then gybed over.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Faster said:


> Any spinnaker halyard should exit ABOVE the forestay, and be free to 'gybe' back and forth without interference.
> 
> On Fracs this can be accomplished simply by exiting above the forestay itself.. on Mastheads the only way this will be true is with some kind of extension/crane above the forestay connection. So yes, IMO it is essential.
> 
> Flying an Asymm off a jib halyard, the halyard will often be chafing across the forestay, and esp after you've hoisted on, say, the port halyard and then gybed over.


Or, you can use a drifter just like a regular genoa and use a standard halyard and gybe/tack the sheets on the inside.

MedSailor


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

MedSailor said:


> Or, you can use a drifter just like a regular genoa and use a standard halyard and gybe/tack the sheets on the inside.
> 
> MedSailor


Yes, as long as it's 'hanked on' or on a foil - not 'flying free' - jib halyard exit slots/sheaves are not designed for side loads like an asymm on a reach...


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

weinie said:


> FWIW,
> 
> Asyms are fun as hell, but it's when SHTF that you have to worry. Hour glasses, wraps around the forestay, lazy sheets dragged under the boat, etc etc!


A digression to the orig. thread.

*Wraps and other O'Crap moments.*

The required piece of equipment to EASILY free wraps, knots of bubbling 'ripstop' on the forestay!!!, etc. is to *apply a preventer* to the full out boom run to the bow ... and then *slow*ly gybing back and forth with the preventer in place, to 'unwind' the damn 'wrap'. The wind caused the wrap, so use a preventer and the reverse wind from a prevented main and slowly gybe back and forth ... and carefully watch for which way the 'wondrous bubbles of colorful nylon' are 'turning' and favor that side of wind which 'unwinds' the wrap. Unwind the 'bottom bubble' first, then the next l etc. 
What ever you do DO NOT attempt to pull on the luff/leech or any spinnaker sheet in an attempt to 'free' a *tightl*y wrapped spinnaker as in doing so only will usually TIGHTEN and maybe JAM the damn 'knot'. 
Go ahead and pull on 'something' if the wrap is clearly 'minor' and not tight, but not on an already TIGHT wrap .... unless you have a sharp knife handy to hold in your teeth as you 'shinny' up the mast, etc.

;-)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

weinie said:


> My snuffer's fiberglass hoop cracked on me this year when the chute decided to fill in about 20 knots when I was trying to bring it down. I was solo and too lazy to head aft to ease the sheet or blow the tack. I pulled too hard on the control line and it broke right through the hoop. Had to douse with the hoop still at the top. The edges were so sharp it put 3 tears in the sail. arghhh!


_OUCH..._

Hmmm, let me guess... your sleeve is not an ATN, right? 

If it was, that took some doing to bust some of Etienne's gear, which was favored by half of the Vendee Globe fleet last time around... He makes great stuff, very robust, and is one of my favorite vendors in the entire marine industy, and a great guy, to boot...

If his snuffer is good enough for the 9,000 square foot chute on METEOR, I figure it will probably stand up to whatever abuse I might hurl at it...


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Actually, it was an ATN.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

weinie said:


> Actually, it was an ATN.


Well, that is surprising... Do you think it actually failed during what would be considered to be 'normal usage', or might it have been previously damaged in some other way? Mine has survived a pretty hard knock or two, I wound up falling/sitting on it in the cockpit once. But those hoops seem pretty strong to me, hard to imagine how one could fail from the forces involved in simply snuffing the sail...

Did you ever return it to ATN for a replacement? Etienne is one of those vendors who stands behind his products, and has a reputation for being very fair about that sort of stuff... Several years ago, one of his production runs of The Tacker in white was found to become discolored over time from exposure to UV, and he gladly offered to replace those with the newer/improved version...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, that is surprising... Do you think it actually failed during what would be considered to be 'normal usage'......


I read that he/she was dousing the spin while it was flying full, with the sheet and tack secure in 20 kts of wind. Singlehanded. Taken on face value, that would not be normal usage.

Truthfully, I find it hard to imagine even attempting such a thing.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

travlineasy said:


> The salesperson at Bacon Sails, fortunately, previously owned a Morgan 33 O.I. and said using an asymm single handed was actually fairly easy, and he would be more than happy to walk me through the process. If I can't figure it out, I'll bribe Jon with some of my Green Coconut Margarettas to go sailing with me and show me how to rig this thing when warm weather returns to the upper Chesapeake.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Good for you, Gary - you're gonna have some fun with that...

There are some good instructional videos out there as well, this one from North Sails is pretty decent... One suggestion I'd make, for your first time or in the beginning, don't bother rigging a lazy sheet, it's unlikely you'll try a flying gybe until you get a bit more experience with it...


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, that is surprising... Do you think it actually failed during what would be considered to be 'normal usage', or might it have been previously damaged in some other way? Mine has survived a pretty hard knock or two, I wound up falling/sitting on it in the cockpit once. But those hoops seem pretty strong to me, hard to imagine how one could fail from the forces involved in simply snuffing the sail...
> 
> Did you ever return it to ATN for a replacement? Etienne is one of those vendors who stands behind his products, and has a reputation for being very fair about that sort of stuff... Several years ago, one of his production runs of The Tacker in white was found to become discolored over time from exposure to UV, and he gladly offered to replace those with the newer/improved version...


I'm not sure why pulling too hard on the control line cracked the hoop. Obviously it shouldn't have. Maybe it got hung up above the thick, reinforced head of the sail and all yanking in the world wouldn't have made a difference. I was going to give it back to my sailmaker but I just traded in the boat a few weeks ago so I didn't bother. Flew the kite a couple of times more w/ out the sock in light breezes.

Already working with the loft on getting a new furling asym for the new boat! Never actually seen one in person, so it should be interesting. Now just debating sailcloth weight and of course color!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

post pics and review man!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

weinie said:


> ...Already working with the loft on getting a new furling asym for the new boat!...


Awesome. But don't leave that sheeted fast when you douse with a furler either, or it will break too.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

weinie said:


> Already working with the loft on getting a new furling asym for the new boat! Never actually seen one in person, so it should be interesting. * Now just debating sailcloth weight and of course color!*


Spinnaker design and color is a very personal choice, of course... But it's easy to get a bit carried away, and my next chute will simply be one solid color... Every time I hoist mine, I'm reminded that "Less is More"...

Oh, and think long and hard before deciding on Hot Pink or Fuschia, no matter how much some cute young thing might favor its inclusion in the color scheme...

No need to ask me how I know this...

)


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Too late.... I already asked my 6 year old daughter what color I should get. Looks like fluorescent pink it is! :laugher


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Spinnaker design and color is a very personal choice, of course... But it's easy to get a bit carried away, and my next chute will simply be one solid color... Every time I hoist mine, I'm reminded that "Less is More"...


Dibs on solid yellow.


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> I read that he/she was dousing the spin while it was flying full, with the sheet and tack secure in 20 kts of wind. Singlehanded. Taken on face value, that would not be normal usage.
> 
> Truthfully, I find it hard to imagine even attempting such a thing.


I think the AP decided to veer upwind a bit while I was forward.


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> post pics and review man!


Gonna have to wait til spring!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

neon pink on a chute is the only place I will accept such color...

for me neon chutes on racers is given

the more fantastic or eye catching the chute is the more racer placebo you get! jajaja

plus it makes it easier for those on shore watching the racers to distinguish you

for cruising its also cool to site someone far away with binoculars and say hey thats so and so! jajaja


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Agreed. The only exception being all black.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

We've found over the years dark color kites tend to last longer and single colors are preferred. Multi colors have slightly different stretch and can result in a "quilted" look to a kite. Regarding assy's we again prefer a single color but at the tack will make one panel a different color (ie all red with a pink panel at the tack) it's simply easier for the bow to be assured they have the tack and not the clew. YMMV


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I'm thinking right red outside, Mr Pirate Winston in colors shown in avatar meself! arrrrrrrrrrrrg!

Current one is red white and blue! boring!

Marty


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks for the vid, Jon. Very helpful.

Gary


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Shockwave said:


> Regarding assy's we again prefer a single color but at the tack will make one panel a different color (ie all red with a pink panel at the tack) it's simply easier for the bow to be assured they have the tack and not the clew. YMMV


I'm all for making the bowman's job easier (30 years on foredeck). I'm a fan of the labels that say "Tack," "Head," and "Clew." *grin*


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Definitely put a 'label' on the corners !!!!

I like to sew/embroider a 'H' or 'T' or 'C' to either the reinforcing corner patches or the nylon web-to-D ring 'strops'. Such wont 'bleed' into the ripstop if the sail gets wetted as does happen when using permanent (?) 'magic markers', etc.

Even with a green luff edge tape, a red leech edge tape and a white foot edge tape ... I can testify that Ive got it all wrong a few times in remembering which damn 'color' goes where, especially 'during battlefield conditions'.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

blt2ski said:


> I'm thinking right red outside, Mr Pirate Winston in colors shown in avatar meself! arrrrrrrrrrrrg!
> 
> Current one is red white and blue! boring!
> 
> Marty


werent they all that way for like 30 years?

my islander came with one like that, but its striped star shaped from the middle outwards

not AS boring jajaj


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