# My Peak Sails Experience



## hriehl1

I've read several posts here and elsewhere about Peak Sails (Peak Sails North America - Peak Sails North America). I thought it may be instructive to describe my first-hand experiences in factual, objective terms while leaving conclusions and opinion to the reader.

I wanted a mainsail and 110% hank-on jib for my Hinterhoeller HR28. No off-the-shelf sails (Catalina, Hunter, etc.) were close enough for me. I am a very casual cruiser, using the boat maybe 15-20 days per year so price was my primary purchase criteria. I had no reservation taking my own sail measurements (all the firms use the same basic form) and ordering over the internet with a credit card. I did not want/need the service (and price) a full service loft would provide.

I obtained quotes from several discount-overseas operations, trying to compare apples to apples by choosing each loft's Dacron cross-cut mid-grade ("Offshore", "Bluewater") or optioned-up sails rather than their base, OEM-grade sails. The following where my delivered quotes for the mainsail and 110% hank-on jib:
FarEastSails.com $1,950
Rolly Tasker (direct) $870, mainsail only
Rolly Tasker (through National Sail Supply) $2,185
Precision Sails $2,017
Peak Sails $1,444 (promo: 15% off "Bluewater sail" pricing when buying 2 sails).

I chose Peak Sails' Bluewater sails from the quotes shown, less 15% promotional discount for buying 2 sails, plus $40 shipping to my home for $1,444 total billed in 4 monthly installments. After a few email and phone exchanges with Peak's rep (Chris Stevens), we had details settled and the first credit card installment secured the order on July 15. I was told to expect the sails in mid-August, around 30 days later.

By August 22, I still had received no sails, nor any communication. I emailed asking for a status update and received no reply. Over the next few days I tried their Tysons Corner VA phone perhaps 6 times and always received a recording asking me to leave a message, which I declined to do&#8230; by then I wanted our dealings in writing in case I had to lodge a credit card dispute.

On August 28 I wrote another email indicating my intention to lodge a credit card dispute if I did not hear from them in timely fashion. The monthly installments were posted on the 16th of each month, so I knew I had 2+ weeks until installment #3 was to be charged and I would not let it go that long.

That same day, August 28, I did hear back from Peak rep Deanna Freng who indicated the sails were scheduled to be shipped from the Far East in the next day or two for receipt in Colorado the first week of September, then re-sent to customers. I would receive a Fedex Tracking number for that shipment.

On September 12 I received the Fedex tracking number for the shipment from Dongguan China (China Sail Factory??) to Colorado. On September 17 I received the Fedex tracking number for my sails from Colorado to my east coast home. On September 23, I received both sails.

Below are some photos of the sail to illustrate (as best as can be shown in photos) the material and workmanship. Time will tell whether these sails hold up or not, but they are (finally) here.


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## hriehl1

3 more photos


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## zz4gta

Maybe I'm not clear, but did Peak Sails inspect the sails before forwarding them to you? Seems like they went to Colorado (not a lot of sailing there) to your door. 

I know you don't want to voice your opinion (you can PM me if you'd like) but would you buy from PS again?


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## jimgo

Actually, I'd like to hear that answer, too. To my highly untrained eye, the pictures/sails look decent. What's your perception? I can appreciate that it took them what seems like a fairly long time to get to you, and that you may not be happy with that aspect of the transaction.  My guess is that they batched the sails to help save shipping costs, which is what lead to the delay. Other than the time and cruddy communications skills, what is your impression?


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## hriehl1

I suspect, but do not know for sure that the shipment to Colorado was a larger container containing my sails and those for many other customers, from the Chinese loft. In Colorado they were re-packed and shipped to the various customers.

I emailed them today voicing my (so far) satisfaction with the product but disappointment with their customer service practices, and I requested (per their website pledge) that my final installment be lowered by 5% of the total charge since delivery took more than 30 days. They immediately replied that they would reduce my final installment by $70. So I got custom cut up-optioned sails for a 28 footer for under $1400, delivered.

Would I buy from them again? Yes... they provide for 4 equal credit card payment installments which to me gives me leverage to lodge a dispute procedure if things go south. Granted, that's a hassle if it has to happen, but then again, these sails were hundreds less than their internet-order competitors. Some are not comfortable with risk, but I am. 

I believe the sails came from China Sail Factory, who also contract manufacture for some big-time lofts. My guess is Peak gets cut-rate prices from the factory in exchange for not getting firm production schedules... Peak's orders get fit-in when the factory has a production gap. This is common for job-lot manufacturers (but the end-customer should know the delivery timetable is uncertain.) 

So in all, I am reasonably satisfied, but fall short of an unqualified endorsement. They'll work for me as I am a casual cruiser who would not appreciate a fully custom-cut sail anyway ... hell, I just try to miss the buoys.


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## jimgo

Thanks!


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## Unkle Toad

thank you for sharing your experience, these are the kinds of things I think the internet should have more of.. enjoy your sails and keep the wet side down.


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## Ajax_MD

The fact that you actually have sails in your posession puts you ahead of many Peak Sails customers who have posted here.

Yep, your photos show sail cloth and sail bags, so congratulations are in order. There's no telling if the cut and fit are correct though. Fingers crossed for you.

I'll not be ordering from Peak. You're the exception, not the rule, I'm afraid.
I expect to be visiting my local Quantum rep this winter for a new, 155%.


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## hriehl1

While there have been many posts citing all sorts of rumors and allegations, I don't recall reading any first-hand accounts of people who ordered from Peak and did not receive product.

While I do not know for certain that Peak subs their sails out to China Sail Factory, the Dongguan China origin suggests it is CSF. Google them for some interesting info... one may not approve of outsourcing to the Far East, but it is a fact of economic life.


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## Alex W

Have you flown them yet? It seems hard to evaluate them without seeing the sail shape.


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## zz4gta

Almost all lofts outsource their labor to asian manufacturing. A US based loft can't compete with $2/hr wages. We have standards. 

Q, North, US, Evo, and many others also have QA/QC standards. Which is why they get drop shipped to a central location in the US to be inspected. If there is an issue, they get sent back, or they're fixed by the loft state-side before making it to the customer.


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## hriehl1

I sailed with the new sails today and they fit and functioned just fine.

Will they last as long as comparably-featured sails from a full-service loft? I don't know, but I for one do believe that sailmaking long ago passed from being mystical art to now being simple science. And the big Far East lofts have the efficiency in modern manufacturing methods and low-cost labor to create competitive product.


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## AnnaDor32

I ordered from Chris Stevens at Peak Sails NA this week(30Sep2013). I requested a quote update for the Tri-radial mainsail to fit our Ericson. The previos quote date had expired. It was the same, but with a 10% discount.
Chris responded via e-mail, then on monday I called and left messages. He returned my call within minutes of my second message. He asked many questions. The conversation was a challenge due to my screaming CNC machine making it hard for him to hear me.
I sent pictures and measurements, and recieved a call from a lady in Colorado, saying that he had recieved them.
So, after two days, they have all that's needed to make the sail.
I'm hoping to have in time for our Veterans Day sail.


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## olson34

One quibble about a pricing and labor comment... Our local NW _UKSails_ loft announced last year that they have expanded their loft (located in BC) quite a bit and are nowadays building many sails in-house. Evidently there is a measurable cost saving over shipping costs from overseas.

Just one more data point......

Loren


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## wdfunk

Ordered tri radial blade and 130% jib for my Hobie33 on 9.20.. Chris Stevens was great..cut a great deal $1500 for two sails in warp drive Dacron ..5 months to pay.. I'll loop back when they hoist .. Recently had a Dacron main made by Precision...more expensive than Peak $1200 for crosscut... But asked lots of good questions.. Main fits well and held up well first season on sf bay.. Happy to get good quality Dacron for an internet price..sails finally going the way of all consumer goods.. This stuff ain't rocket surgery..


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## USCANAM

Sails for my Catalina were ordered and paid for about a week ago. Had many cordial conversations with Chris. Am hoping that I don't experience the problems that have been posted here.
Time (about 3 weeks) will tell.

USCANAM
Catalina 380


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## windnrock

My experience with Peak Sails was nothing short of horrifying. I certainly am to blame for going to them in the first place. 
No answer on the first call but I left a message and was called back by Chris Stevens in VA. He took my order and my money. I had to get back to him with colors, which was more difficult and took several days. Two weeks later I had still not received an invoice for $2334 worth of goods. After much effort I was put on the phone with Art Kelly who immediately dove into me about how unreasonable I was and who proceeded to tell me that I was, and I quote, "a s--t head", "an a--hole", a "f--king looser" and other niceties. I was shocked. I ran a construction business for 20 years and NEVER heard anyone go into a customer like this EVER, ANYWHERE! He claimed to have 400 employees, (that is totally false, they may have 4 or 5) he claimed huge amounts of business and this is why I couldn't get a receipt for so long. He thought it was unreasonable of me to want information or a receipt and rather than listen to the customer, went off on his tirade. He needs real help; this was truly antisocial behavior. I couldn't even get very angry at him, only pity, it was so bizarre. I now understand why this is at least his second failing business venture. 
Read the BBB listings for both Kelly-Hanson and Peak. Read the blogs in this, and other sites. You will see a history of customer complaints. Remember, these are only a percentage of all that they might have received. It is truly surprising because what they do is intrinsically easy. They take orders, have a loft in Hong Kong produce the sails(Wilfer Sails) send them to a garage in Colorado where they are repacked and send them on. I personally don't have a problem with that. What they add, unfortunately, is shoddy business practices, no coordination or tracking, no infrastructure, a huge lack of communication and is virtually no customer service. Couple that with an owner who has no desire to be professional or accept advice from anyone and you have a disaster. Art Kelly could have a great business, given his attitude and personality, that won’t happen. They are likely in the position of robbing Peter to pay Paul and this is why so many people can not get their product. Wilfer Sails won't ship without up front payment, they are NOT affiliated with Peak Sails. You are risking being the last customer Peak Sails has and losing your money or not having a service oriented company to sort out your defective sail. 
Will a sail from almost any other loft cost more? It certainly will. Will it be worth it? It certainly will. You will receive prompt service, valuable assistance and help, a better product with guarantees that are backed up and professional behavior from their staff or owner. 
If you see the name “Peak Sails” change course. 
You can also order from Wilfer Sails Direct and save much more, beware the quality though.


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## USCANAM

USCANAM said:


> Sails for my Catalina were ordered and paid for about a week ago. Had many cordial conversations with Chris. Am hoping that I don't experience the problems that have been posted here.
> Time (about 3 weeks) will tell.
> 
> USCANAM
> Catalina 380


Happy to report that our sail order arrived today. Sails were shipped at the same time in two boxes, one 45 pounds, and one 60 pounds. The lighter box arrived 3 days ago, the heavier one today.
Will not have a chance to bend the sails this season, but we spread them out on our front lawn. 
They are radial cut and look beautiful. Stitching looks good, and construction looks neat. Some nice things were Velcro pockets for the tension line cleats on the genoa.
One small item were missing grommets for the main where the reefing lines have to be tied around the boom. Peak is issuing me a check that will more than cover installing them.
Overall, I'm very pleased with the quality and price of our new sails. As to how they fit and sail, I'll find that out in the Spring.
I did discuss some of the negative comments posted on this forum with Chris, and he replied some of that was due to previous ownership, and he's trying to rectify past problems.
So, what we got were a new set of radial cut sails at just about the same price for a standard cut set, and so far the service and follow-up have been outstanding.
Can't wait for April now!!


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## Maine Sail

windnrock said:


> My experience with Peak Sails was nothing short of horrifying. I certainly am to blame for going to them in the first place.
> No answer on the first call but I left a message and was called back by Chris Stevens in VA. He took my order and my money. I had to get back to him with colors, which was more difficult and took several days. Two weeks later I had still not received an invoice for $2334 worth of goods. *After much effort I was put on the phone with Art Kelly who immediately dove into me about how unreasonable I was and who proceeded to tell me that I was, and I quote, "a s--t head", "an a--hole", a "f--king looser" and other niceties.* I was shocked. I ran a construction business for 20 years and NEVER heard anyone go into a customer like this EVER, ANYWHERE! He claimed to have 400 employees, (that is totally false, they may have 4 or 5) he claimed huge amounts of business and this is why I couldn't get a receipt for so long. He thought it was unreasonable of me to want information or a receipt and rather than listen to the customer, went off on his tirade. He needs real help; this was truly antisocial behavior. I couldn't even get very angry at him, only pity, it was so bizarre. I now understand why this is at least his second failing business venture.
> *Read the BBB listings for both Kelly-Hanson and Peak. Read the blogs in this, and other sites. You will see a history of customer complaints.* Remember, these are only a percentage of all that they might have received. It is truly surprising because what they do is intrinsically easy. They take orders, have a loft in Hong Kong produce the sails(Wilfer Sails) send them to a garage in Colorado where they are repacked and send them on. I personally don't have a problem with that. What they add, unfortunately, is shoddy business practices, no coordination or tracking, no infrastructure, a huge lack of communication and is virtually no customer service. Couple that with an owner who has no desire to be professional or accept advice from anyone and you have a disaster. Art Kelly could have a great business, given his attitude and personality, that won't happen. They are likely in the position of robbing Peter to pay Paul and this is why so many people can not get their product. Wilfer Sails won't ship without up front payment, they are NOT affiliated with Peak Sails. You are risking being the last customer Peak Sails has and losing your money or not having a service oriented company to sort out your defective sail.
> Will a sail from almost any other loft cost more? It certainly will. Will it be worth it? It certainly will. You will receive prompt service, valuable assistance and help, a better product with guarantees that are backed up and professional behavior from their staff or owner.
> If you see the name "Peak Sails" change course.
> You can also order from Wilfer Sails Direct and save much more, beware the quality though.


It had been rumored that Mr. Kelly was involved with Peak Sails.


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## windnrock

Rather than go through Peak Sails you can order direct with Wilfer Sails. They are the Chinese loft that Peak sails buys from. They then mark them up. On a spinnaker that cost 2400 from Peak it was 1800 from Wilfer. Because of other issues Wilfer has, I ended up going with Kappa Sails for considerably more but with the knowledge that the sails are built here (Ohio) and the commitment for quality and service is there. Peak Sails is far from a legitimate sail maker. They are brokers, nothing more. They are, as the BBB listing shows (F), poor businessmen. Art Kelly's previous business attempt, Kelly-Hanson, had a BBB listing of an "F" as well. My conversation with Art showed how unprofessional and un-businesslike a person can be. I can see no benefit from doing business with these people. Your sails are your primary engine, don't short yourself or your boat.


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## wdfunk

Reporting back on my order w Peak Sails..Received both a 130% and 95% headsail (tri-radial, Warp Drive Dacron) from Peak in less than 30 days since order..overall v happy with the sails. 130% was cut pretty much perfectly (#5 tape), flies beautifully and looks to be made to industry standard. Blade was ordered with 3 battens (almost always in high winds in SF Bay), cut was near perfect for my Hobie 33. Small issue with this was an undersized clue grommet but Chris got back to me v quickly w an offer to cover the replacement at a local loft; he was v responsive throughout the process. For the price, I'm very impressed.

Suspect that a lot of commentary for Peak was from previous mgt., I would definitely recommend them based on these first two sails (assuming you're like me, looking for decent quality Dacron sails, not ubertech race sails).


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## tworeefs

My experience with Peak Sails and Chris Stevens has been nothing but enjoyable.

I ordered their Bluewater Cruise mainsail and genoa as well as a custom shaped asymmetrical for my Island Packet 27 and was more than thrilled with the quality of the sails.

I wanted a reaching assymetrical and Chris had a design drawing over in minutes after my call. It wasn't a design or sail that came off the shelf.

My guess is that 90% of more of the sails sold in the U.S. are made offshore. Other than the small handful of independents, everyone else is doing it. The problem is we all want U.S. made sails but very few can afford the premium.

Personally, I could care less where the sails are made. I am happy with my purchase and would not hesitate to use them again.


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## windnrock

The "New" management is the same as the old. I had numerous unanswered calls and emails to Chris. This is AFTER they took my money. I finally got a reply, not from Chris, not from Art, but Deanna, the lady that receives the sails in Colorado who is the only bright spot in the company. Glad you had good luck but the tirade and cussing I got when finally I spoke with Art Kelly(he screens his calls) it was nothing short of psychotic and childlike. All I wanted were some answers that Chris would not get back to me on. After the "conversation" I canceled the order on my card despite being told I would be refunded. Art is a piece of work. Like I said, both Peak Sails and his previous attempt have "f" ratings with the BBB. The design aspect is suspect as far as it being done by them. Wilfer Sails is a design build loft. I work with Kappa Sails because I trust them with my business. The people ALWAYS answer the phone, they always get back. Heck they even made a sail bag out of different material because Brian(the owner) remembered my wife doesn't like red. Kappa Sails is a stand up outfit with thoughtful and diligent people. I received a call from the loft in Ohio because I had a question about the design, Brian had them call me and they did. He then checked back to be sure I was satisfied! I wouldn't buy a cheap furnace from people I didn't trust for a dirt home, why would I buy sails for my boat from dubious characters? Everyone is free to make their own decisions, good or bad.


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## wdfunk

Like I said, my sails from Peak have now been repeatedly flogged on SF Bay..beautiful cut and v well built for the price. Think customer numbers and reports will eventually show the quality of any builder. Like I said, great customer experience w Peak Sails and Chris. Contact me if you want more detail.


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## weinie

Sounds a bit fishy that all 4 of wdfunks posts are in praise of Peak sails. Just sayin'.


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## wdfunk

Oooyyvahh..like I said, time will tell how happy customers are with ANY maker...I have not interest in Peak or any other loft,, have used Precsions and a 3 local (SF) makers..suspect though that there's a lot of folks that troll this space to pull down anyone else, then recommend some loft no one has ever hear of..just sayin...if I could get the upload to work on this site, I'd post pics...effin Windows 8


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## windnrock

I do find it interesting that Chris Stevens blames previous management. All my problems were with him and Art Kelly the "New" owners. All the BBB complaints are in the Art and Chris time frame. All the BBB complaints with Art's prior business (Kelly-Hanson)were his as well. If you wish to go that route consider simply ordering from Wilfer Sails directly. They do all the design and fabrication anyway. You at least save an additional 15 to 20%. To the best of my knowledge, the sails are not quality checked when they arrive here; only repacked and sent out of Colorado. Chris is in Tyson's Corner, VA and Art is in Washington state I believe. They are brokers.
I am glad those of you who had success are happy. Many are not.


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## olson34

weinie said:


> Sounds a bit fishy that all 4 of wdfunks posts are in praise of Peak sails. Just sayin'.


And, if you click on his screen name and look for _any_ personal info like type of boat, location, etc, there is nothing. 
Like a ghost.

LB


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## wdfunk

Walter Funk
Hobie 33
Alameda ca

Get a life or a boat


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## arf145

tworeefs said:


> My experience with Peak Sails and Chris Stevens has been nothing but enjoyable.


tworeefs, welcome! So how did you come to be moved to join Sailnet and for your first post, praise Peak? This type of coincidence seems to happen with establishments with checkered records.


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## tworeefs

I have been visiting this site for years. It is a great place for information.

However, I do not really have the desire to discuss companies and its employees on a public forum. It just seems wrong.

I simply piped in because I had a decent experience with the company.

As usual, anyone that feels differently and does not spend every waking moment on these forums will be labeled a troll just because they do not.

A question. When Chrysler essentially went bankrupt and Fiat purchased their assets, does that make Fiat a "bad" company as well?

It is interesting that the only folks that seem to be ripping on the company are ones that haven't spent a nickle with them.

As far as windnrock is concerned. Obviously, his experience was not the greatest. However, there seems to be a trend developing here. Anytime a positive review is posted, he feels the need to respond to them. And each one is more vociferous then the last. There is probably more to this situation. There usually is.

Guys, do not kill the messengers or private employees of a company who are simply doing their jobs.

You have a few folks with good things to report. Take it for what its worth.


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## weinie

Just suspicious that the only ones defending PS are people who seem to have just become SN members and have close to zero posts.


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## hriehl1

I am the original poster... have many posts on Sailnet... and while I fall short of an unqualified endorsement of Peak, on the whole I'm reasonably satisfied... the product is fully satisfactory, their customer service was less so.


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## wdfunk

Peak Sails 130% jib sailing on my Hobie 33; SF Bay, 15 kts


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## tequilajimhart

I joined this forum simply for the purpose of posting on Peak Sails. I did this because I did an internet search to see what/if anything has changed since I ordered 2 sails last year. I think with one exception (the guy who actually got his sails inside of 30 days) everything is about the same. Poor customer service and response time, also the sails are about a month late getting to the customer. Last year I made 2 different orders, both late but both good sails.
Both orders were for my Santana 22 which is on GSL here in Utah. I also have a Ranger 33 in Mexico. I'm trying to place another order today for a main and a 120 for the Santana. I emailed yesterday and had a response to the email this morning. I called on phone and emailed both today, but no response at all. I might add that I'm ordering a month earlier than the real action starts and I need the sails. Jim


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## windnrock

They purchase their sails from Wilfer Sails in China. You can order direct by going to wilfersail.com. You would be on your own but with my experience with Peak Sails that couldn't be any worse. It is actually cheaper to go direct.


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## Clarks Hill Windbag

Gambling time: I bought a basket case Hunter 23 that needs jib and main. Peak is $1190 base - would like 2nd reef so upcharge for that, and Precision is $1450 with 2 reef main. Any advice?

The difference will pay for most of the halyards and running rigging that also has to be replaced.


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## tworeefs

Read through the posts.

There was really nothing that stopped me from purchasing my sails with Peak and did not feel it was a gamble. Ask to talk to Chris Stevens.

The most recent critical post is actually pretty funny. The guy buys to sails from them. Then he goes back to buy two more. His gripe is that his call was not returned immediately?

I bought mine on their SailPay program. Had the sails about the time my second was due which was about 30 days post order.

Of course, you can always order through North. It took 5 months to get the sails and I paid over twice the price.


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## tequilajimhart

My gripe was not that he did not immediately call back, it was that I still hadn't heard from him 4 days later. Then I got involved with some one on a chat that didn't know anything about anything. I'm retired USN MCPO. Been retired for 42 years now but I have still been unable to learn to put up with civilian BS. I expressed that to her to pass on to Chris and ordered my sails from Precision. I got better service and help than I've ever got from any other sailmaker. I've owned 7 different sailboats and bought sails for all of them. My best experiences so far (I still haven't received from Precision) have been Precision and Minny's. Good luck with Peak! One thing they have going for them (probably the only thing) is price. I can't find anything wrong with the 2 sails I bought from them but it did take 2 months to get them, or there about, when they told me 30 days or less.


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## chef2sail

BubbleheadMd said:


> The fact that you actually have sails in your posession puts you ahead of many Peak Sails customers who have posted here.
> 
> Yep, your photos show sail cloth and sail bags, so congratulations are in order. There's no telling if the cut and fit are correct though. Fingers crossed for you.
> 
> I'll not be ordering from Peak. You're the exception, not the rule, I'm afraid.
> I expect to be visiting my local Quantum rep this winter for a new, 155%.


Good move..They have great customer service. I have two new quantum sails and they are top notch made.


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## tworeefs

Interesting.

I do not see a single post that shows where a consumer did not receive a sail.

Aside from the fact this entire thread is a breach of SailNet's Terms of Service and every members personal agreement to abide by it, it is just sad that folks will stoop this low to simply prove what?

From what I have read, most of the folks making noise here haven't even dealt with the company. Instead of slinging mud, perhaps it would be a good idea to pick up the phone and get real facts if you truly have some concern. But like most forums and it's participants, there isn't the fortitude to do so. Or perhaps, it would end the fun at someone else's expense.

We have enough problems with companies folding and the resulting loss of jobs. This kind of thread does not help and it is certainly not corinthian spirit in any sense of the term.


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## miatapaul

tworeefs said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I do not see a single post that shows where a consumer did not receive a sail.
> 
> Aside from the fact this entire thread is a breach of SailNet's Terms of Service and every members personal agreement to abide by it, it is just sad that folks will stoop this low to simply prove what?
> 
> From what I have read, most of the folks making noise here haven't even dealt with the company. Instead of slinging mud, perhaps it would be a good idea to pick up the phone and get real facts if you truly have some concern. But like most forums and it's participants, there isn't the fortitude to do so. Or perhaps, it would end the fun at someone else's expense.
> 
> We have enough problems with companies folding and the resulting loss of jobs. This kind of thread does not help and it is certainly not corinthian spirit in any sense of the term.


Well there aren't any or at least not many that describe a good experience either.


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## tequilajimhart

Well, I guess the fact that this time I ordered from precision pretty much sez it all for me.


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## hriehl1

We are a full season later and our satisfaction with the product is still high. We had a nice sail yesterday and looked at a couple dozen other boats out in the sound. Our sails were as well-set as anyone's, actually better than most.. This does not speak to construction quality as I am not experienced enough to provide informed opinion. But as one who hopes to sail 20 days this season, I am happy.


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## Tenorsax

Don't buy from Peak Sails! I received a new sail from Peak Sails that is too big and doesn't fit on my sailboat. When I contacted them, they falsely accused me of giving them the wrong measurements and then ignored my emails and didn't answer their phone.


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## cortezsailor

Well like most everyone else their service sucks and generally bad attitudes prevail.
I ordered sail, didn't get what I ordered, he told me it was my fault, refused to do anything. Having said that , the sail quality was mediocre. When I sent the sail in to have luff added they had to resow a lot of the threading, shabby job all around. Not worth dealing with there are way to many good guys out there to bother with trying to save a few bucks.
More companies should adopt a payment plan. iSland Planet Sails offers that service on some of their purchases. My next sail will be ordere through them.


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## George Hackett

Hear is what I tell my Customers. "As a sail buyer you would do well to look into who makes your sails and what your sails are made of. More than a few big name Sailmakers are buying their sails from low price, high production lofts with no brand affiliation whatsoever. The Sailmakers I am referring to buy these cheap sails and slap their label on them. Other Sailmakers use the cheapest cloth, material, and labor available. Even the top cloth suppliers have a range of real cheap fabric to compete with in the world market. These are fabrics we would never use. As a result, you the consumer, end up with a cheap imitation of what you think you purchased."


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## UnionPacific

Thou I do not know much about sails my local loft quoted me a price on a sail.
They stressed that they use American thread, and American material, and to never use Chinese cloth or thread as they do not hold up. I was a bit skeptical so I asked more questions and they showed me a brand new china sail they were repairing. The people had saved $500, and had 3 repairs done already to the sail.

When I buy my heavy duty sail it will be from the local loft, where they know my name, have visited my boat, and when they deliver the sail they will go sailing with me to make sure they look and function 100% before I pay the final price.

Of course we do not all have a good local shop.


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## djodenda

George Hackett said:


> Hear is what I tell my Customers. "As a sail buyer you would do well to look into who makes your sails and what your sails are made of. More than a few big name Sailmakers are buying their sails from low price, high production lofts with no brand affiliation whatsoever. The Sailmakers I am referring to buy these cheap sails and slap their label on them. Other Sailmakers use the cheapest cloth, material, and labor available. Even the top cloth suppliers have a range of real cheap fabric to compete with in the world market. These are fabrics we would never use. As a result, you the consumer, end up with a cheap imitation of what you think you purchased."


Hi, George.. welcome to Sailnet.. 
By your post, I am assuming you are in some way affiliated with a sailmaker.
And that's fine, but forum rules require you to identify yourself as such in your signature, for transparency.

Thanks!


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## George Hackett

djodenda said:


> Hi, George.. welcome to Sailnet..
> By your post, I am assuming you are in some way affiliated with a sailmaker.
> And that's fine, but forum rules require you to identify yourself as such in your signature, for transparency.
> 
> Thanks!


yes, my appologies. i represent UK Sails here in the Philippines through UK Sails HK. i am still updating my profile and will include the companies our family company represents.


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## mmhewes

Greetings, 

My experience with Peak Sails was great. We ordered an asymmetrical spinnaker for our Catalina 42 for a transit to Hawaii coming up soon, and they delivered as promised. We shopped around; they came in competitively. We purchased the ATN sock through them and that came through both in price and shipping expediency. We communicated with Chris from Florida on several occasions to ensure that we would receive it in time, and he was good at responding. We inspected the sail and it looks good. It was built in China, and shipped direct to us from Chins, we knew all that in advance. As far as the quality of the fabric of the sail, unfortunately I do not have enough experience to know exactly what is in my sail. I know that it is rip-stop nylon, which I have some experience with. They offer a three year warranty on the build. So perhaps I will tell you in the future how it held up. 

Margie
Blessed Life Catalina 42 mkII


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## Cottonsail

My experience with Peak sails was not positive. I sent an email about all the complaint on the net. I was asking for an explaination. This is what I received back.

"Dear Mr. Cotton,
Actually, there are no complaints about our company anywhere on the internet including the Better Business Bureau.
Instead of wasting our time with this nonsense, perhaps you should waste yours and you will find that the Peak Sails that you refer to went out of business in late 2012. We purchased their assets after they closed.

Chris Stevens"

There are many complaints after late 2012. I will not "waste time" with this company. The order will be place with another company tomorrow.

Michael Cotton


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## hriehl1

That barely qualifies as an experience with Peak Sails. Yours was kind of a "When did you stop beating your wife" exchange. I too would have chased you away. What could they have said to you that would have earned your confidence?

I am the original poster and continue to begin another year satisfied with the product while a bit disappointed with the customer service aspects. But when one shops knowingly at the lower tier, something has to be compromised. I am still satisfied with my purchase.

Those who expect a Cadillac experience while paying Kia prices are simply being unrealistic.


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## TakeFive

I have no experience with Peak Sails. But I have a lot of experience with customer satisfaction, having worked in product development for almost 30 years. I can tell you, quite emphatically, that anyone who addresses any customer question with, "Instead of wasting our time with this nonsense..." is making a huge mistake. You might make that comment within your company to a coworker, but never in a direct written response to a customer. I don't know many businesses who have so many customers that they can afford to offend one (plus the thousands of others who may read the pasted quote) with such an arrogant comment.

Assuming that the quote is truly an exact copied/pasted quote, it was a very foolish response to a customer's inquiry.


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## jblumhorst

Hi all,

There is a thread on Sailboatowners.com about some Tri-Radial sails for a Catalina 22 from Peak. They were supposed to be made of Challenge Warp Drive, which is a very expensive dacron, but they were made of totally different sailcloth.

Here's the thread on the Catalina 22 forum on Sailboatowners.com

A look at Peak Sails for the C-22 (Pics) - SailboatOwners.com

and here's a link to the close up pictures of the the sailcloth. You have to enlarge one of them to read the comments on the pic.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B...2J1aGxtX1VDMUFzZkl4cWhxbjREbk1zUVU&authuser=0

The pictures of real vs fake Warp Drive speak for themselves.

Full Disclosure:
I am a sailmaker. I own Hyde Sails Direct. I sell Challenge Cloth.
Judy Blumhorst


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## jblumhorst

hriehl1 said:


> I believe the sails came from China Sail Factory, who also contract manufacture for some big-time lofts. My guess is Peak gets cut-rate prices from the factory in exchange for not getting firm production schedules... Peak's orders get fit-in when the factory has a production gap. This is common for job-lot manufacturers (but the end-customer should know the delivery timetable is uncertain.)
> .


[Full disclosure: I am an online sailmaker. I operate an independent business, Hyde Sails Direct We have a strategic alliance with Hyde Sails International. Hyde Sail LLC owns and operates one of the largest production lofts in the world. Hyde builds more than 50,000 sails per year, for their own name-brand, for small "private label" brands and for some large, well-known name-brands]

That's a guess, with no basis in actual fact.

China Sail Factory doesn't offer anybody "cut-rate prices from the factory in exchange for not getting firm production schedules" They publish their prices via their online ordering system. They don't give anybody special treatment. Production slots are booked via their online ordering system. All the communication is highly automated online, and everybody has to use the same online interface to place orders. No special breaks for anybody, with the possible exception of some high-volume-based resellers who are subject to annual production contracts.

As an insider in the global sailmaking industry, I have first hand knowledge of how China Sail Factory operates.


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## hriehl1

I cannot challenge what you offer as facts. But I can question whether 90% of those buying sails have a clue about what you're portraying as critical design elements or care. Can it be that you espouse refinement that only 10% of buyers can afford and appreciate?

It reminds me of the high tech industry I have been in since the early 70s... What we could pitch as smoke and mirrors in 1975 for big bucks became routine commodity in 1985. I find it hard to believe sail design is the black art you imply... Actually I think it is simple science easily boiled down into computer-aided design that results in products more than good enough for 90% of us.

I understand you serve a demanding clientele with state of the art product. But most of us just need a Chevy, not a Tesla.

I also was clear that I was speculating on the job-lot arrangement with the producer. I have no first hand knowledge of the sailmaking industry. But I have significant experience with high tech component manufacturers and if a customer is flexible with scheduling and delivery, the producer can be flexible with price.


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## hriehl1

This is an interesting and informative exchange, thank you.

You indicate that your talented designers can knock out a cruising sail design in 30 minutes. I assume using a CAD system with sail design software., probably that starts with a "base design" based on rig dimensions and the designer tweaks from there.

What sorts of design tweaks are they specifying in those 30 minutes and what sorts of things must they know about the cruising customer to make the right tweaks to that cruising sail? What distinguishes the sail you build for John from the one you build for Mary when both sail Catalina 30 standard rigs?

What performance benefits does the casual cruising customer receive with those design tweaks?

My point is not to challenge whether refined design can result in better performance, it is to observe that there are a goodly number of us who don't know or care about the last two-tenths of a knot. We don't rake our masts, we don't adjust leech lines or Cunningham's. We set our sails, tug on the sheets now and then, and enjoy the ride.

I defer to your far greater knowledge, but I still contend that off the shelf computer designed sails built in modern production facilities can yield a satisfactory product for many of us at lowest available cost.

I know this opinion challenges your livelihood, but software and the internet have brought producer and consumer together and eliminated many middlemen whose value didn't justify the added cost, like realtors, travel agents, stock brokers and others. While the local sailmaker representative can continue to serve the high end clientele, the writing is on the wall that your cruising customer base will erode as we migrate to direct internet sellers who can provide decent, but not excellent product at very good prices.


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## albrazzi

FWIW I just had a positive experience with Quantum and it was on a foreign made Sail but with a solid local design company. Very good price also. Kind of the best of everything. Guys like North are crazy expensive no matter the spec but the kind of Quality and performance the Racer needs serious or not so serious. With the reviews available for Peak I didn't even try them but don't take that as a bad review just neutral. The only thing I might do different is the white UV strip on my roller tried it for a few reasons but it gets dirty quickly, at least I will have the incentive to clean it regularly so no biggie.


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## jblumhorst

*Buying Cruising Sails Online -- Direct from the Loft.*



hriehl1 said:


> This is an interesting and informative exchange, thank you.
> 
> You indicate that your talented designers can knock out a cruising sail design in 30 minutes. I assume using a CAD system with sail design software., probably that starts with a "base design" based on rig dimensions and the designer tweaks from there.
> 
> What sorts of design tweaks are they specifying in those 30 minutes and what sorts of things must they know about the cruising customer to make the right tweaks to that cruising sail? What distinguishes the sail you build for John from the one you build for Mary when both sail Catalina 30 standard rigs?
> 
> What performance benefits does the casual cruising customer receive with those design tweaks?
> 
> My point is not to challenge whether refined design can result in better performance, it is to observe that there are a goodly number of us who don't know or care about the last two-tenths of a knot. We don't rake our masts, we don't adjust leech lines or Cunningham's. We set our sails, tug on the sheets now and then, and enjoy the ride.
> 
> I defer to your far greater knowledge, but I still contend that off the shelf computer designed sails built in modern production facilities can yield a satisfactory product for many of us at lowest available cost.
> 
> I know this opinion challenges your livelihood, but software and the internet have brought producer and consumer together and eliminated many middlemen whose value didn't justify the added cost, like realtors, travel agents, stock brokers and others. While the local sailmaker representative can continue to serve the high end clientele,* the writing is on the wall that your cruising customer base will erode as we migrate to direct internet sellers who can provide decent, but not excellent product at very good prices*.


I *AM* a direct internet seller who provides excellent product at VERY good and very competitive prices. 

I run Hyde Sails Direct, the official online website for US distribution for Hyde Sails, one of the largest sail lofts in the world. Hyde builds more than 40,000 sails per year and have been in business for over 50 years. Hyde's state-of the-art loft has more than 240 full time, long term employees (with a full benefit package) in the Philippines, and a very low cost structure due to the economies of scale. They Hyde name has been synonymous with quality for 50 years.

You can't get any more " Direct" than HydeSailsDirect.com ... and every design is custom fitted to the measurementss and requirements of the boat owner.

PS. We are one of the production loft for several other well known US brands. We build sails to their specification and designs. They chose us to build their sails because we turn out consistently, reliably high quality sails.

Judy Blumhorst
www.hydesailsdirect.com


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## jblumhorst

Cottonsail said:


> My experience with Peak sails was not positive. I sent an email about all the complaint on the net. I was asking for an explaination. This is what I received back.
> 
> "Dear Mr. Cotton,
> Actually, there are no complaints about our company anywhere on the internet including the Better Business Bureau.
> Instead of wasting our time with this nonsense, perhaps you should waste yours and you will find that the Peak Sails that you refer to went out of business in late 2012. We purchased their assets after they closed.
> 
> Chris Stevens"
> 
> There are many complaints after late 2012. I will not "waste time" with this company. The order will be place with another company tomorrow.
> 
> Michael Cotton





windnrock said:


> My experience with Peak Sails was nothing short of horrifying. I certainly am to blame for going to them in the first place.
> 
> No answer on the first call but I left a message and was called back by Chris Stevens in VA. He took my order and my money. I had to get back to him with colors, which was more difficult and took several days. Two weeks later I had still not received an invoice for $2334 worth of goods.
> 
> After much effort I was put on the phone with Art Kelly who immediately dove into me about how unreasonable I was and who proceeded to tell me that I was, and I quote, "a s--t head", "an a--hole", a "f--king looser" and other niceties. I was shocked. I ran a construction business for 20 years and NEVER heard anyone go into a customer like this EVER, ANYWHERE! He claimed to have 400 employees, (that is totally false, they may have 4 or 5) he claimed huge amounts of business and this is why I couldn't get a receipt for so long. He thought it was unreasonable of me to want information or a receipt and rather than listen to the customer, went off on his tirade. He needs real help; this was truly antisocial behavior. I couldn't even get very angry at him, only pity, it was so bizarre. I now understand why this is at least his second failing business venture.
> 
> Read the BBB listings for both Kelly-Hanson and Peak. Read the blogs in this, and other sites. You will see a history of customer complaints. Remember, these are only a percentage of all that they might have received. It is truly surprising because what they do is intrinsically easy.
> 
> They take orders, have a loft in Hong Kong produce the sails(Wilfer Sails) send them to *a garage in Colorado where they are repacked and send them on.* I personally don't have a problem with that. What they add, unfortunately, is shoddy business practices, no coordination or tracking, no infrastructure, a huge lack of communication and is virtually no customer service. Couple that with an owner who has no desire to be professional or accept advice from anyone and you have a disaster. Art Kelly could have a great business, given his attitude and personality, that won't happen.
> 
> They are likely in the position of robbing Peter to pay Paul and this is why so many people can not get their product. Wilfer Sails won't ship without up front payment, they are NOT affiliated with Peak Sails. You are risking being the last customer Peak Sails has and losing your money or not having a service oriented company to sort out your defective sail.
> 
> Will a sail from almost any other loft cost more? It certainly will. Will it be worth it? It certainly will. You will receive prompt service, valuable assistance and help, a better product with guarantees that are backed up and professional behavior from their staff or owner.
> If you see the name "Peak Sails" change course.


Peak's prices for name brand sailcloth are significantly lower than every reputable loft's. Ask yourself, how can the seller offer such a low price? The answer inevitably leads to more questions than answers. Name brand products sold at far lower prices than the market should be carefully verified.

As for the story on the website that Peak is under new management, that's hogwash. Peak's "new" management is the same as the "old" management -- same owner, same location, with no business permits registered in Washington, Virginia, Colorado, Nevada or any other state that I've searched. I can find no public ownership records that indicate the business is registered and in good standing anywhere in the USA.

Peak Sails is presently shipping their sails from 39540 COUNTY ROAD 13, Elizabeth, CO. When I bought a sail from Peak, FedEx picked up the sail at the address listed below, which is the same location that Windnrock reported. (I own and operate HydeSailsDirect.com. I have been buying sails from my online competitors for years through intermediaries, so I can see exactly what they are selling. In my 50 years of sailing, I have bought sails from at least 10 different brick and mortar lofts too))

The pickup location given by FedEx was 
> Company: Peak Sails North America
> Address: 39540 COUNTY ROAD 13
> City: ELIZABETH
> State: Colorado
> ZIP code: 801078903
> Country/Location: United States
> Phone no.: 7205487197
> Pickup Type FedEx Ground

Here's the assessor's data and the link to the real estate assessor's record on this property. Guess who lives there?

Login

Account: R115245 Ownership Information

Owner Name
KELLY ARTHUR W 
Address2
39540 CO RD 013 
City
ELIZABETH State
CO Zip
80107-8903


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## RMACjazz

There must be good online sail lofts out there. Has anyone had a good experience with some of the discount lofts?


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## Jeff_H

Almost by definition an online sail loft will not be as good as high quality loft with a local branch except when making one-design sails for a popular class. When I have had sails made, the sailmaker has sailed on my boat and taken images while sailing showing headstay and mast bend so that digitized measurements can be made, and taken way more physical measurements than the typical online sail order form. That is what is required to get a proper flying shape for a new sail and to a lesser extent to get proper stress mapping to produce a durable sail. 

Jeff


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## JimsCAL

It is certainly possible to get a good sail from on online loft. I have bought sails this way three times in the last ten or so years from three different vendors and been happy each time. Lofts were North Sails Direct, JSI (Doyle Southeast), and National Sail Supply (Rolly Tasker). Big thing is being able to do your own measurements. A good friend has bought two sails from FX Sails and they also seem like good sails.


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## jblumhorst

Full Disclosure: I own and operate an "online-loft". Our business is called HydeSailsDirect.com.

One of the biggest saving via an online loft is not paying a trained agent for coming out to your boat to measure it, and maybe go sailing with you. Having somebody come out to your boat costs more. How much extra are most folks willing to pay to have the sail maker to spend a day on your boat?

It's $80-$100/hour to have a master sail maker spend 8-12 hours measuring, test sailing before design, delivering and test sailing after delivery, not counting travelling time. While there is certainly value to having your sail maker come out to measure and test-drive your boat, that's not the only alternative.

The Measure-it-Yourself approach is a great alternative -- when you are working with a reputable, experienced online sail maker. If you can follow instructions, read a measuring tape, and take digital pictures per the instructions, you can measure your own boat.

At Hyde Sails Direct, we teach our customers to take all the same measurements that a trained sailmaker's assistance would get for us. We train our customers how to take specific digital pictures for visual analysis. It's a complete set of measurements.

Mast bend is easy to measure at the dock. Owners can do it by following easy to understand instructions. You don't need to be a sail designer to do it. We check it anyway, via analysis of the digital pictures.

Hyde's designers can estimate the forestay sag based on rig paramenters (dimensions of mast extrusion, number of spreaders, fractional vs masthead rig, etc) and a historical data base. It's accurate for all but the most extreme/bizarre rigs. We don't need to measure each and every boat's forestay sag to know how it's going to work for an "average" and properly tuned rig. Big companies have the data based on decades of experience and you can buy it from the sailmaking software vendors.

(The key to success lies in knowing which data to use for a given style of rig. That takes an extensive knowledge of rigs. An experienced sail designer knows how to do that with an high degree of accuracy.)

After Hyde Sails Direct has all the measurements from the customer, we draw them up using SailPack software and confirm that the rig dimensions are reasonable. Then we send the file to the Hyde design team in the UK and to the production loft in Cebu, Philippines. From that moment until the sail is ready to ship, there is no difference between a sail purchased from HydeSailsDirect.com online or one of our 60 brick and mortar lofts world wide. For our online customers, we ship the sail from the production loft directly to the customer. For customers of a local loft, the sail is delivered to the local sailmaker, who arranges to have it delivered to the customer's boat.

HydeSailsDirect.com specifically designs our sails to match the customers sailing conditions such as prevailing wind strength and their boat characteristics. When we deliver our sails to the customer, we also send comprehensive instruction on how to tune the rig to a baseline tune for that style rig and the local conditions.

PS. 
Aero-elastic strain analysis is overkill, IMO, for traditional crosscut or tri-radial panelled cruising sails, as is Flow analysis. It's not necessary to perform an aero-elastic analysis to build a durable panelled cross cut or tri-radial cruising sail. Decades of design experience and production standards are perfectly adequate. Hyde has builts thousands of cruising sails that have 25,000+ nautical miles on them and none of them required a aero-elastic analysis to be durable enough to last that long.

None of our online cruising customers would be willing to pay an extra $1000 or more for doing an aero-elastic analysis and Flow analysis.

Hyde's designers have decades of experience designing durable cruising sails, as well as Gran Prix race sails and membrane sails. They have advanced software for aero-elastic analysis and flow analysis. Hyde builds 40,000-50,000 sails per year, but only a tiny peprcentage of them need aero-elastic analysis.

PPS. Hyde Sails doesn't sell Gran Prix or membrane race sails via our _online loft_. We feel that it's too hard to do a good job via long distance


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## Jeff_H

jblumhorst,

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I agree with most of what you wrote, and learned something. For example, I did not realize that online sail makers had their boat owners provide images of the their sails and rigs. That would go a long way to closing the gap between the better stick and brick lofts and the online sources. 

I would also say that I completely agree that most cruisers, especially those ordering panel cut dacron sails, would never notice the difference between the kind of custom design that I am thinking of, vs. the type of online ordering that I was thinking of. 

I guess some of my concerns result from my perceptions of the differences between online lofts and the better brick and stick lofts. I would love to hear your comments since these perceptions are largely based on comments made by representatives of those brick and stick lofts. 

For example, the loft that I deal with most claims that they order the fabric for each project by the project, and that every piece of cloth is optically scanned for uniformity of weave and thread size, and that samples are routinely tested for stretch and stain characteristics. They claim that they reject a fairly large percentage of the fabric that they test, and that those rejected fabrics are used by (theirs and other) online lofts to help reduce cost. 

I agree with you about flow analyis and aero-elastic strain analysis being overkill for traditional crosscut or tri-radial panelled cruising sails. On the other hand, I certainly saw the benefits in my case with an Aramid non-membrane sail. The sail maker had put pieces of tape on my old sails in a number of locations with precise dimension marks that allowed them to calibrate the digital images and had taken pictures at several locations, and had measured the static and the loaded shroud tensions at the time that the pictures where taken. 

The calibrated pictures in light air vs. the those taken in heavier air showed that the luff curve was closer to a simple catenary in light air, but showed a tighter radius in the lower third of the luff in heavier air. The aero-elastic images showed that the optimized cut of the luff curve would be different between if cut to optimize light air shape and if cut to optimize heavy air shape. 

Since as a single-handed racer and performance oriented cruiser with a comparatively rare, fractionally rigged 38 footer, who was looking for as broad a wind speed range as possible for each sail size, I was looking at a customized design. In each case, I elected to optimize the sail design for the heavier end of the wind range since the performance difference was smaller in light air than in heavier air. Once that decision was made, given the heavy air optimization, the panels were checked a several orientations and were rotated a few degrees, which the analysis showed would minimize stretch and increase the useful life of the sail. It was impressive to see the data and be able to make what I considered to be an optimized decision. 

Now then, I understand your point about cost. There was sailmaker's time in the making the measurements, and time in producing the customized analysis. This now comes to my own disclosure. In the past, I often rode shotgun when someone was working on a new sail inventory, helping them pick a loft and the specifics for a sail or entire suit if sails, that they were ordering. As a result I have been in and out of the lofts more frequently than most folks, and certainly was involved in more sail buying decisions than my own boat would require. I somewhat suspect that I may have gotten more serious treatment and perhaps better pricing than the average sail purchaser. I don't know that to be true, but it certainly has been suggested by some of the people who I have brought in to the lofts. 

When I buy a sail, I also always ask the loft whether there is a time of year to order the sail, and/or have it produced that would earn a discount, and take advantage of that as well. (My sense is that the discounts are not as big as they used to be in the days before globalized production.) 

With that disclosed, I just have not seen the kind of cost savings that I would have expected from the online lofts. When I was ordering my mainsail, and also when I ordered most recent jib a year earlier, I also filled out online price quote forms. I can't recall whether Pryde Sails was one those. 

I supplied four online sources the sail dimensions, and the fabric manufacturer and specific fabric that I wanted, as well as the specific details of the sail that I wanted incorporated. 

I was surprised that the online prices generally came in around the price I was quoted from the brick and stick loft, two were cheaper with the largest savings being somewhere around three hundred dollars (less than 10% of the sail cost) and the highest online price exceeding the brick and stick price by a few hundred dollars. At least one online loft declined to provide a price saying they don't work in that type of cloth. The thing that was striking is that the brick and stick price included the sailing time on my boat, data collection, and the analysis process. 

I readily acknowledge that I cannot really argue whether the extra effort was necessary or even beneficial. And I know that some of these exercises have more intellectual value than real value. I also know that had the sailmaker simply used their judgement (rather than look at alternatives with me, or gone through the detailed analysis) I might have ended up with the same or a better sail. Of course any hint of a position on that would be entirely conjecture on my part. 

Lastly, perhaps to put this in perspective, like you, I race a J-70 (OPB) and last spring I attended a J-70 class forum with reps from the local major lofts. 

What was amazing was that amoungst the top sailors in the class, there was a wildly broad range of opinions on how to set up the rigs, trim the jibs, how high to point or foot, target speeds etc. This divergence in turn was reflected in the major lofts producing several generations of J-70 jibs, and now offering multiple jib cut options each optimized for the sailing and trimming style, of each crew type, as well crew skill level since some of these sail cuts require constant halyard and sheet trim beyond the skill of us duffers in the class, who arguably do better with a more forgiving sail cut. If one cut can't satisfy the needs of a one design class like the J-70, then I am not sure that any one size fits all can satisfy most performance sailors. By the same token, the J-70 class is populated by some of the top sailors in the world, and that analogy may have little bearing on us normal folk. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## jblumhorst

Hi Jeff,

What a wonderfully informative post! Thank you for taking the time to write it. You are fortunate to be in one of the top sailing towns in the country, and you fortunate to be able to get such personalized service. Annapolis is home to some of the best sailmakers, finest lofts and best racers in the USA.

As you quickly pointed out, you have very specific ideas about what you wanted in a sail. If you invited me to work with you on a project like you described, I would have to decline. That is not the kind of service Hyde Sails Direct can provide at our price point. I find it surprising that your sailmaker spent a whole day taking pictures and analysing your boat for a sail that cost less than $3000 (if I understood you correctly??) I think you must be very favorite customer at that particular loft. 

Design quality: 
My "online loft," HydeSailsDirect.com doesn't offer any racing sail. We do only cruising sails. But the same designer who designs Hyde's winning race sails (in Europe), supervises the design of our cruising sails. We require the same measurements as any North Sails/Ullman/Quantum/Doyle/UK/NeilPryde representative collects for a custom cruising sail (with the exception of spreader heights and stanchion for pre-application of patches).

Limited cloth selection at competitive prices:
HydeSailsDirect is sort of like what North Sails Direct used to offer, but we offer a bigger selection of cruising sailcloths. We offer the following cloth choices, in approximate ascending order of stretch resistance and price:

Challenge High Mass Dacron for charter boats and long distance cruiser (cross cut)
Challenge High Modulus Dacron in High and Low Aspect styles for coastal sailors (cross cut)
Challenge Marblehead Dacron in High and Low Aspect styles (Cross cut)
Challenge Warp Drive dacron (Tri Radial)
Contender CDX cruising laminate (TriRadial)
Dimension Polyant DCX Cruising Laminate (TriRadial)
Contender Hydbrid dacron with Dyneema (Tri-radial)
Dimension Polyant HydraNet Radial Dacron with dyneema (Tri-radial)

Racing Sails from HydeSailsDirect:
Nope. Our online loft doesn't sell membrane or race sails. I chose to not offer them, because it's my opinion that they require the same kind of personal attention that you described. The owners of the Hyde brick and mortar lofts around the world can and do offer the same service that you describe.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sail cloth:
The Hyde Sails Cebu warehouse has a complete selection of rolls of cruising dacrons from Challenge Sailcloth, a wide selection of cruising dacrons and cruising laminates from Contender, and an small selection of cruising dacrons and cruising laminates from Dimension Polyant. For all of those particular cloths in stock, the cost of materials lower than a smaller brick and mortar loft pays, due to the lower cost of shipping via container load well in advance.

Like the other 5 or 6 big production lofts operating today, Hyde Cebu buys sailcloth by the roll/bolt, not the square yard, directly from the manufacturer. The dynamics of that relationship are very different than the relationship between a small loft and a cloth supplier. For example, Hyde negotiates prices for a whole line of a particular cloth. For example, for the past few years, we have been able to negotiate very favorable prices directly with Challenge on their woven Dacrons and woven spinnaker cloth, and Hyde uses it extensively.

Hyde operates a warehouse near the production loft, to which Challenge and Contender and Dimension Polyant all deliver rolls of cloth by the container load. When the cloth is moved from the warehouse and released to the production loft, Hyde pays for it. In effect, Challenge and all the other cloth manufacturer's stock Hyde's "distribution center" right next to our loft, at their expense.

If you ask me to quote on a cloth that isn't in inventory provided by the manufacturer, Hyde can certainly procure it, but they will have to add $50-$100 to the price to cover the cost of having it flown in to the loft. If it isn't in the distribution center warehouse, by the roll, it's going to cost extra to obtain it quickly, via air freight.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
First vs Second quality sailcloth
A quick word on grade A vs B cloth:

When the cloth arrives in the Hyde loft, every roll is tested on an Instron machine and inspected visually for cosmetic blemishes. If it doesn't meet the tech specs for stretch that are in the contract, or it has cosmetic blemishes , Hyde rejects it. The cloth manufacturer takes back the rejected cloth.

For a great look at the Hyde Production loft, See The Loft | | Hyde Sails Direct

Cloth manufacturers don't destroy rejected cloth. They sell it honestly for 20-60% off full price, advertised as "B" grade cloth. A couple of times a year, the manufacturers email sailmaking lofts a list of overstocks and seconds. The second tier lofts buy the B grade use it for less expensive sails, probably as "no-name" dacron. A few dishonest sailmakers and low end production lofts buy it and don't tell their customers that it's grade B.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quality?

I think it's fair to say that not all brick and mortar lofts are of equal quality.
I think it's also fair to say that not all online lofts produce sails of equal quality. 
The range of quality is from awful to pretty darned good.

Hyde Sails Direct is not representative of most online lofts. Although we are independently owned and operated, we enjoy a close relationship with Hyde Sails LLC (Hyde's management and design team in the UK) and Hyde Sails Cebu, LLC (Hyde's production loft in Cebu PH). We trust them and they trust us. Hyde has been in business for 50 years, and I am honored to be allowed to represent them online. I personally know the owners and top managers in the UK and Philippines, and they are ALL people of integrity and professionalism.

Hyde has a centralized design staff and a huge centralized production loft, like North, Ullman, Quantum and other well known brands. Hyde's production loft is a little smaller than a football field and produces 40-50,000 sails per year for Hyde's own brand and others, and employees 240+ full-time permanent employees (with a full benefit package including health care.)

In my opinion, and I am biased, I think the Hyde-branded sails we sell are among the highest quality available from any loft, brick or mortar. Hyde doesn't cut any corners, and they don't use any "generic" cloth or non-namebrand cloth. Hyde controls the quality from the time the cloth arrives at the loft to the day the finished sail ships. IMO, the finished cruising sails we offer at HydeSailsDirect.com compare very favorably to a cruising sail from any brick and mortar loft (assuming you can measure a boat!)

Respectfully,
Judy

PS. I don't race sailboats. Never have. I use my J/70 as a daysailor. It's a heck of a fun ride! It's a 23 foot boat, with a cockpit the size of a 40 footer, so I can take my friends out for company. If I want a big boat for a week's cruise, I charter it. It's kind of like a BMW. You don't have to be a racer to enjoy driving one.

PPS. My J/70 is available for day charters or regatta charter for the Worlds in San Diego in December. Contact JWorld in San Francisco for details. (800) 910-1101

PPPS: Here's some sail loft trivia: Hyde's production loft is bigger than China Sails Factory's, in terms of square footage. Rolly Tasker's is even bigger, and is probably largest production loft in the world, in terms of square footage.


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## jblumhorst




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## rmontondo

Thought I would add my experience for all you other captains thinking about buying from overseas. I recently bought a FarEastSails mainsail and Peak 155% for my 1977 Hunter 30. Both are radial cut Dacron, and both are beautiful sails. Far East is much better at communicating and I felt like I had a bit more control of the design. That said, you are the designer. Both places are sail stichers - not sail lofts. They put the numbers you provide into the same program the high end lofts use, the program cuts the panels and they are stitched together to your specifications. It was not hard to take the needed measurements but you are pretty much taking all responsibility for the final size and shape. The program will cut thousands of panels without a mistake, and the workers will probably line them up correctly on the floor and stitch them together correctly. You might save $1000 but if you make a mistake you might loose more than that. I would but from either again, but am a 35 year sailboat racer, and a mechanical engineer with a lot of design experience. Last weekend my 189 perf boat went by a 135 perf boat. I'm grinnin'.


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## jblumhorst

rmontondo said:


> Thought I would add my experience for all you other captains thinking about buying from overseas. I recently bought a FarEastSails mainsail and Peak 155% for my 1977 Hunter 30. Both are radial cut Dacron, and both are beautiful sails. Far East is much better at communicating and I felt like I had a bit more control of the design. *That said, you are the designer. *Both places are sail stichers - not sail lofts. They put the numbers you provide into the same program the high end lofts use, the program cuts the panels and they are stitched together to your specifications. It was not hard to take the needed measurements but you are pretty much taking all responsibility for the final size and shape. The program will cut thousands of panels without a mistake, and the workers will probably line them up correctly on the floor and stitch them together correctly. You might save $1000 but if you make a mistake you might loose more than that. I would but from either again, but am a 35 year sailboat racer, and a mechanical engineer with a lot of design experience. Last weekend my 189 perf boat went by a 135 perf boat. I'm grinnin'.


Rig measurements define the geometry of the rig, not a flying foil shape. If software could design foils, we wouldn't need aeronautical engineers to design planes.

I have have professional experience with the software you're talking about. It takes a sail engineer (aka designer) to produce a foil that flies well. The foil (sail) is only as good as the person who designed it and the materials from which is is assembled.

Experienced designer + high quality sailcloth + meticulous craftsmanship = good sail that holds its shape for a long time, is responsive to good trimming technique and forgives errors committed by the sailors.

Respectfully,
Judy B
Sailmaking professional


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## mstern

When I bought new sails a few years ago for my humble boat, I had read many horror stories about using internet lofts. Nevertheless, I priced out a new main and 135 genoa from several of them, as well as from a local loft (recommended by my dockmate). Unsurprisingly, the local loft was about 50% more. I decided to go with the local guy, not because I'm swimming in cash (I wish), or because the local guy would come out to my boat and measure (I had no qualms about doing the measuring myself), but mostly because he was a half hour away. My sails were going to be made at a place I could sneak out to during my lunch hour if need be; my sailmaker was a local phone call away, not in China or Colorado, or someplace else where he could ignore me if the job was taking too long or if there were a problem. His coming out to measure and hoist the sails for the first time were bonuses. In the end, I just couldn't bring myself to risk getting crappy sails that I wouldn't be able to do anything about.


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## Jeff_H

Thank you Judy for the detailed explanation. It should prove helpful to those exploring a decision on a sail purchase.


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## jblumhorst

You're more than welcome, Jeff. And thank you for your contribution. You did a very nice job describing the benefits of working very closely with a sailmaker to develop exactly the sails you wanted. Your posts were a valuable contribution to the depth and breadth of the discussion

Judy.


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## rmontondo

I agree Judy, although I would suspect the software was created by aeronautical engineers, and it calculates the panel sizes needed to create a foil. There measurements needed for items like my roller, and where I wanted the sail to trim. Also mast bend and specifying the amount of roach, where I wanted it etc. I could have told the local sail designer who is at our club once a month to make a me a good club racing sail and not have to worry about it. As for the rig dimensions, they should always be measured. I think my H30 has had 3 mast-head rigs and the new ones are fractional. I measured everything and when I got the design details back I measured again out of fear that if it was wrong I would be pretty much out of luck.


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## jblumhorst

rmontondo said:


> I agree Judy, although *I would suspect the software was created by aeronautical engineers, and it calculates the panel sizes needed to create a foil. *There measurements needed for items like my roller, and where I wanted the sail to trim. Also mast bend and specifying the amount of roach, where I wanted it etc. I could have told the local sail designer who is at our club once a month to make a me a good club racing sail and not have to worry about it. As for the rig dimensions, they should always be measured. I think my H30 has had 3 mast-head rigs and the new ones are fractional.* I measured everything and when I got the design details back I measured again out of fear that if it was wrong I would be pretty much out of luck*.


Actually the software was not written by practicing Aeronautic Engineers.

The software used by Hyde Sails LLC (SailPack) was written by a team of sail design specialists whose leaders consist of a brilliant former America's Cup sail designer, a brilliant and groundbreaking PhD in Fluid Dynamics and Computational Geometry, and a brilliant computer scientist. Each of them has participated in every America's Cup for the last 20 years.

The person who wrote the AeroElastic Finite Element Anaysis module has over 20 years of experience in AC sail development.

The other leading sail design software, Smar Azure, has been developed over the past 10 years by a similar team, chock full of brilliant sail specialists who have PhDs in similar disciplines and similar backgrounds exclusively in sail design. The owner of the company wrote her PhD thesis in sail design.

To go from rig dimensions to cutting panels requires numerous inputs from a real sail designer if you want a sail that matches the boat and the sailor's intended use. A sail designer chooses things that most buyers don't even consider: Amount of twist, draft position (fine for pointing but fussy? or rounded for a wide groove?), leech openess (relatively closed for pointing? relatively open for wider trimming groove, depending on the tenderness of the boat and the stall profile of the rudder), panel alignment, etc..... and much more.

There's a lot more to designing a sail than figuring out the luff, leech, foot and girth dimensions. All you need for that is rig and hardware dimensions, high school geometry and a copy of the handicap rules.

*My company, www.HydeSailsDirect.com, guarantees that the sail will fit when we accept a job, or we fix it or we replace the sail or we give you your money back. If for any reason you are not satisfied, we refund 100% *. (see note 2 below) Our measuring software is draws out the measurements we get from the customer, and can quickly find any significant errors the customer might have made. I can train any clever person with basic high school geometry skills and a very little high school trig to fit a sail to a boat using our software. But I wouldn't let that person design a sail that I sell to my customers!

To reiterate: *I stand by my previous statement that it takes an experienced sail designer produce a decent sail that is easy to trim and fast. That's a far more complicated task than sizing a triangle and roach to fit a triangle defined by a backstay, boom, and mast (with or without bend and rake) *

Hyde Sails' head sail designer, Richard Lovering, is a competitive racer who holds a multitude of UK national and world titles in several classes. He won the 2015 UK Flying 15 National Title and is helming a Quarter Tonner racing in Cowes Week as I write this. The quarter tonner, a 1988 J Faroux design, is the test boat for Hyde's ongoing commitment to developing "excellent racing sails that can deliver the performance needed to win at prices that are sane and sensible" and affordable by the non-professional racer. That expertise trickles down into every cruising sail Hyde builds as well.

Respectfully, 
Judy
Hyde Sails Direct, a strategic partner to Hyde Sails LLC
Independently owned and operated

Note 1: To make it easy on the customer to take the measurements, we provide instructions and a measuring kit for a refundable $50 deposit. The kit includes an engineer's tape, an engineer's folding rule, a caliper, and an assortment of labelled luff slides and luff tapes. These are the same tools used by a professional sail consultant.

Note 2: We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone who can't or won't fill out our measurement form.

Note 3: If a customer isn't comfortable measuring a boat, we recommend that they hire a local rigger to do it. Riggers usually charge for 1-2 hours to do the job including travel time. A good rigger can do the job in less than an hour for a bout under 40 feet, including removing and refitting the existing head sails to do the measurements. Bigger boats take longer because it's more work to handle a large sail.


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## Jeff_H

Judy,

Thank you for the kind words above. I cannot agree with you more about the need for a skilled sail designer at the controls of the design process. There seems to be a belief in the public at large that somehow computer software can somehow design things. It reminds me of a story of an interview with Olin Stephens back in the 1960's after an America's cup win. S&S were pioneers in advancing the science of using towing tanks. The reporter asked Olin whether we would get to the time when towing tanks will make yacht designers obsolete and Olin replied, that would not happen since someone needs to figure out what to put into the towing tank. 

While sophisticated software can help validate and tweak design decisions, at least at this point in time the software can't determine the correct parameters for that shape in terms of correlating sails to the characteristics of the boat and its sailing environment. 

Where people also get confused is that many lofts use the same basic software programs, but each loft has optimized the shapes produced by software based on their own proprietary research. It's a bit like I may use the same word processing program as many a great modern author, but I'll never write like a Hemmingway, or a Joseph Conrad. 

The art of sail design still remains an art. I usually attend SNAME's Chesapeake Sailing Yacht Symposium. The first day is in depth presentations on bleeding edge work. Most of those presentations have to do with refining software, validating current software, refining and validating wind and towing tank data. It is clear that faster, more powerful computer technologies and cumulative research has greatly advanced the ability accurately analyze alternative design decisions. It seems clear that this capability allows a skilled designer to produce a sail that for any given windspeed produces less heel and leeway, and which is more or less forgiving, and which is more durable. But it is also clear, that we are a long way from having the computer make these determinations on its own. 

Jeff


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## jblumhorst

Jeff_H said:


> Judy,
> 
> Thank you for the kind words above. I cannot agree with you more about the need for a skilled sail designer at the controls of the design process. There seems to be a belief in the public at large that somehow computer software can somehow design things. It reminds me of a story of an interview with Olin Stephens back in the 1960's after an America's cup win. S&S were pioneers in advancing the science of using towing tanks. The reporter asked Olin whether we would get to the time when towing tanks will make yacht designers obsolete and Olin replied, that would not happen since someone needs to figure out what to put into the towing tank.
> 
> While sophisticated software can help validate and tweak design decisions, at least at this point in time the software can't determine the correct parameters for that shape in terms of correlating sails to the characteristics of the boat and its sailing environment.
> 
> Where people also get confused is that many lofts use the same basic software programs, but each loft has optimized the shapes produced by software based on their own proprietary research. *It's a bit like I may use the same word processing program as many a great modern author, but I'll never write like a Hemmingway, or a Joseph Conrad. *
> 
> The art of sail design still remains an art. I usually attend SNAME's Chesapeake Sailing Yacht Symposium. The first day is in depth presentations on bleeding edge work. Most of those presentations have to do with refining software, validating current software, refining and validating wind and towing tank data. It is clear that faster, more powerful computer technologies and cumulative research has greatly advanced the ability accurately analyze alternative design decisions. It seems clear that this capability allows a skilled designer to produce a sail that for any given windspeed produces less heel and leeway, and which is more or less forgiving, and which is more durable. But it is also clear, that we are a long way from having the computer make these determinations on its own.
> 
> Jeff


:thewave:

Extremely well said. May I quote you? 
:smile


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## Jeff_H

Please be my guest....

Jeff


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## sailracerguy

Hi All,
I had a buddy get the run around from peak sail arrived 3 months late and was made wrong but they did pay for the North loft to fix it
He never had a chance to really fly it as he lost the boat next season due to Sandy. He has since bought another boat I said to use 
a local loft Sobstad but he is going with peak since they are cheaper I`am very very happy with my Tri Radial head sail from Sobstad


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## gwillecke

I ordered a Hunter 22 Genoa from Peak Sails of North America on February 6, 2017 and it arrived on April 5, 2017. I had heard of some recent complaints about this company, so 15 days after they received my final payment, I questioned the company about my order status and commented that the Florida sailing community would be watching this order process. This was a golden opportunity for the company to assuage any bad publicity and to show real customer service. Instead, the CFO of the company accused me of "extortion" by telling her that the sailing community was watching, and then had their corporate counsel contact me with insults and threats of reprisal. He even requested that I take my future business elsewhere! The fact that a question about the status of an order (that has been fully paid for) is met with a response like this is hard to believe. I guess this is what passes for great customer relations at Peak Sails. Even if the sail is of good quality, no one should have to experience this kind of treatment when ordering a sail. When Peak Sails responds to this review, as they have with past reviews, the corporate counsel will no doubt attempt to debunk this review by spewing some more vitriol. I am certainly heeding the corporate counsel's advice and taking any future business to the competition. If you don't want to subject yourself to this type of treatment, I'd suggest that you follow his advice as well.

Gary Willecke
Charlotte Harbor, FL


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## BillB36

gwillecke said:


> I ordered a Hunter 22 Genoa from Peak Sails of North America on February 6, 2017 and it arrived on April 5, 2017. I had heard of some recent complaints about this company, so 15 days after they received my final payment, I questioned the company about my order status and commented that the Florida sailing community would be watching this order process. This was a golden opportunity for the company to assuage any bad publicity and to show real customer service. Instead, the CFO of the company accused me of "extortion" by telling her that the sailing community was watching, and then had their corporate counsel contact me with insults and threats of reprisal. He even requested that I take my future business elsewhere! The fact that a question about the status of an order (that has been fully paid for) is met with a response like this is hard to believe. I guess this is what passes for great customer relations at Peak Sails. Even if the sail is of good quality, no one should have to experience this kind of treatment when ordering a sail. When Peak Sails responds to this review, as they have with past reviews, the corporate counsel will no doubt attempt to debunk this review by spewing some more vitriol. I am certainly heeding the corporate counsel's advice and taking any future business to the competition. If you don't want to subject yourself to this type of treatment, I'd suggest that you follow his advice as well.
> 
> Gary Willecke
> Charlotte Harbor, FL


Not unusual for Mr. Kelly. What you got dealt is the owner Art Kelly pretending he is an attorney. He does this with frequency and is as crooked as the universe is large. Don't rile me up on Peak Sail and Art Kelly or the other phony business names he hides behind. He is worse than Doctor Diesel.


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## FreeAgent

Based on this thread, I decided not to go with Peak even although price quoted was low. Nevertheless, I imagine many have not had a problem with them. It was the reports of poor communications and attitude that bothered me. 

I decided to go with Fareastsails. From what I can gather, the person I dealt with and the company itself is actually based in Alabama USA. Sails will be made either in Hong Kong, or more likely, in China. They do have an efficient ordering system that seems to be designed to minimize errors or misunderstandings. Communication so far has been timely and pleasant. Sails are in production and will be airshipped direct to me. Hopefully in a timely manner!

On-line sailmakers fall into several groups, it seems:
- Ones that have local agents that you can deal with.
- Ones that are strictly on-line and have no local agents.
- Ones that appear to be located in Hong Kong, or elsewhere, but in fact are based in USA or other locations and are resellers of sails.
- Ones that are actual sails lofts in Hong Kong or elsewhere in Asia
- Sail lofts in USA/CANADA/UK etc that now import their sails to be more competitive.

If you have an agent or a sail loft in your area, that can help, especially if you are not comfortable with making the required measurements or concerned about remedying errors and service. This may cost quite a bit extra.


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## FreeAgent

Received my sail from FarEastSails in a timely manner. 4 1/2 weeks from date of order to when Fedex delivered to my door. Fedex Economy delivery took about 5 days. Came from China, not Hong Kong. Sail fits furler and looks fine. Everything appears to be as specified. No way for buyer to be sure that specified sailcloth was used, but it seems OK. Very good overall buying experience. Like their attention to detail. 

Only thing about FES, that I found a bit disconcerting is that they make out that they are located in Hong Kong or China, when in fact I believe you are dealing with company in Gulf Shores Alabama. No phone number - only email. It would be nice if they were more transparent. Even Peak and other resellers of Asian sails have a person you can call and talk to. Important if something goes wrong.

Haven't been for sail yet, but will soon.

UPDATE: Shake down sail yesterday. About 4 hours upwind and reaching in 10-20 knots. FES sail seems fine. 

I have bought a lot of sails in distant past from Asia as well as from local sailmakers like Hood, Sobstad, Shore, Quantum, North. Sail is a lot better than the 70's, 80s vintage Asian sails and about same as would be expected from any of the well known sail lofts. Spreader patches could have been a bit higher, but that was my fault!


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## Towguy

Actually To be picky,Hong Kong is part of China now not separate,.....good to see a positive review here...


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## FreeAgent

Towguy said:


> Actually To be picky,Hong Kong is part of China now not separate,......


Well, that is _officially_ true! (see below) It's just that FES emails and other documents include many references to Hong Kong and even say Hong Kong below senders name. The address on the shipping documents is actually the address of Wilfer Sails in Dongguan City, China. Fedex flight went direct from Guangzhou to Japan then on to NA. These places are in mainland China, not all that far from, but not in Hong Kong.

I have no problem with this except puzzled why sellers are not more up front.

By the way, from some earlier posts, it seems Peak Sails could be made in same loft as FES!



> The former British colony became a special administrative region of China in 1997, when Britain's 99-year lease of the New Territories, north of Hong Kong island, expired.
> Hong Kong is governed under the principle of "one country, two systems", under which China has agreed to give the region a high degree of autonomy and to preserve its economic and social systems for 50 years from the date of the handover.


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## Towguy

Okay,I see that would make a difference if the maker is based in Hong Kong,,,,are the boatyards ,for build and repair as busy as ever still??...


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## RegisteredUser

FreeAgent said:


> .....
> I have no problem with this except puzzled why sellers are not more up front.......


The only one I've dealt with so far is National Sails and they are more than upfront.
You know that lil bitty thai girl is doing the stitching...


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## FreeAgent

RegisteredUser said:


> The only one I've dealt with so far is National Sails and they are more than upfront.
> You know that lil bitty thai girl is doing the stitching...


I agree - I had several "conversations" with them and was about to order a few years ago, but then our C$ tanked.

This time, with C$ still low, I obtained more quotations and NS were not competitive with some other Asian quotations. If I lived in Florida, I might have gone with them anyway.

I have bought many sails over the years, especially when racing. I was quite impressed with the FES sail that I received. Well put together and exactly to the agreed upon specs. Looks about same as one would expect from well known large sail lofts.The FES 'salemaker' communicated well and somehow the vibes were better than from Peak or Precision. I also had a good feeling about James at Hong Kong Sailmakers (in Hong Kong!) but they didn't have the door to door shipping included that FES had well organized.

With all these imported sails, the problems arise when something goes wrong. Local sailmakers are likely not all that keen on helping out.


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## RegisteredUser

We might see Catalina sails offered on Amazon is the future.
It's $s and volume.
Now it's offshore mfg with intermediaries for sales and marketing.


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## FreeAgent

RegisteredUser said:


> Now it's offshore mfg with intermediaries for sales and marketing.


It seems the intermediaries also arrange for the *sail design*. The Asian sail factories just have panels cut on CAD cutters and then assemble the sail. What we as buyers don't know, is who designs the sail. Presumably there are people out there who perform this service for multiple sail companies. Are they all equal? FES did send me the computer design for approval. Of course only major dimensions could be checked. This being a simple cruising headsail, I imagine design is kind of generic. There is open source sail design software like this: http://www.sailcut.com/. Wouldn't surprise me if some salemakers use this themselves instead of hiring a designer.


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## JimsCAL

With the good online lofts available like National Sail, Hyde Direct, JSI/Island Nautical. I don't understand the need to try to save a few $ by taking a chance with some of these questionable lofts. Yes some might be just fine, but how do you know? Most probably just place an order with somebody like China Sail Factory and then you are on your own. I don't get it.


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## FreeAgent

JimsCAL said:


> With the good online lofts available like National Sail, Hyde Direct, JSI/Island Nautical. I don't understand the need to try to save a few $ by taking a chance with some of these questionable lofts. Yes some might be just fine, but how do you know? Most probably just place an order with somebody like China Sail Factory and then you are on your own. I don't get it.


Problem is - who judges who the "good" on-line "lofts" are? And do they offer competitive pricing? Good for a cruiser is also different from Good for a racer!

They are almost all sail sellers rather than sail lofts. A very few do have local lofts where they may still make some sails or at least do repairs. But if you are not where they are, you are buying on-line and dealing at a distance anyway.


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## Lazerbrains

JimsCAL said:


> With the good online lofts available like National Sail, Hyde Direct, JSI/Island Nautical. I don't understand the need to try to save a few $ by taking a chance with some of these questionable lofts. Yes some might be just fine, but how do you know? Most probably just place an order with somebody like China Sail Factory and then you are on your own. I don't get it.


I recently ordered from Hyde Direct and it was a nightmare - I can't even begin to tell you how much went wrong. They ended up making me another sail, and that one they goofed up also - at this point I will be taking it to a local loft for adjustment.


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## JimsCAL

Lazerbrains said:


> I recently ordered from Hyde Direct and it was a nightmare - I can't even begin to tell you how much went wrong. They ended up making me another sail, and that one they goofed up also - at this point I will be taking it to a local loft for adjustment.


Sorry to hear that. Judy B posts here fairly often about sail topics and is quite knowledgeable. Want to share a little about what went wrong? Might be helpful to others considering a sail from an online loft.

FWIW I have ordered three sails online. Main for previous boat from North Direct, main for current boat from JSI/Island Nautical and genny from National Sail. All sails were fine and needed no rework. JSI/IN is now Doyle Southeast and they make their own sails onsite. Dirk at National Sail is quite knowledgeable and very prompt to answer questions. I would not hesitate to use either again.


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## jblumhorst

Lazerbrains said:


> I recently ordered from Hyde Direct and it was a nightmare - I can't even begin to tell you how much went wrong. They ended up making me another sail, and that one they goofed up also - at this point I will be taking it to a local loft for adjustment.


Laserbrains,

Your replacement sail arrived two or three weeks ago, and you didn't tell us there was anything wrong with it. If you have an issue with your new sail, please contact us directly. We stand behind our product. But in order to do that, you have to make a good faith effort to let us know what's going on, which you have not done to date. We have done our utmost to make you happy and accommodate you and will continue to do so.

If you're unhappy with it, please contact us directly.

Sincerely
Judy B
Owner, Hyde Sails Direct


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## Lazerbrains

JimsCAL said:


> Sorry to hear that. Judy B posts here fairly often about sail topics and is quite knowledgeable. Want to share a little about what went wrong? Might be helpful to others considering a sail from an online loft.


Well, I waited to follow up on this as I wanted to give HydeSailsDirect a "good faith" effort to fix the problems as requested by JudyB. Unfortunately, they told me the fixes to my sail will be at my expense, despite the fact it is missing features that I requested and is misccut.

So, to detail what went wrong with my order: I ordered an offshore-type jib from HydeSailsDirect, and gave them specific dimensions for luff, leech, and foot, based on the jib it was replacing - a very straighforward order. I specified several features, such as fabric, foam luff, tack attachment, etc. When the sail arrived, it was the wrong weight of dacron, had the wrong type of tack attachment, and worst of all was so miscut that I could not even trim the sail properly - it gave very little drive and was impossible to balance - it looked and behaved way worse than my old, tired, stretched out jib it replaced. I contacted JudyB, who insisted it was a very good cut designed by a talented designer. I spent two more days adjusting jib cars, luff tension, leech lines, etc, all to no avail - the sail was horrible and nothing like a new sail should be. To her credit, after a months time, JudyB informed me she discovered that some numbers had accidentally been transposed and that, indeed, the sail had been designed incorrectly and that coupled with the ordering mistake of the wrong weight dacron, she would make another sail. But, she insisted this time on having detailed measurements of the boat, and that they would design a sail from scratch, as opposed to my desired dimensions. I provided the measurements, as well as detailed photos to Judy. The design they came back to me had a much lower foot than I had originally desired, and I was worried about it rubbing the lifelines and catching waves. When I told my concerns to Judy, I was told that her design would only rub the lines when deep downwind and not to worry. Not wanting to end up with another mistake sail, I told her that I would trust her design and what she claimed. When they sent me the final approval email, I again stated that I would trust her and her design, and reminded her to include reefing marks (which I had requested, but were not listed on the design parameters). I waited four weeks and hadn't heard a thing from Hydesails, so I called them and found that someone had forgotten to place the order, so I was assured it was being placed right away. I again waited 3 weeks, and hadn't heard a thing. I spoke to Judy who admitted it still had not been placed and stated "sorry, I really have no excuse as to why this happened." Finally, the replacement sail arrived. I immediately noticed that it didn't have the reefing marks, despite my reminder. Nor did it have the correct tack attachment, once again. Everything else looked ok, so I tried it out. I put the boat on a close hauled course, and sure enough, the sail was cut too low and chafed across the lifeline, fouling the luff shape for about 4 feet up from the tack - this was sheeted in as tight as possible, not sailing downwind, so it rendered a large part of the luff useless. It also catches waves, something I wished to avoid and the old sail did not do. The only upside is that this time the fabric is the right weight, and the draft is acceptable, although I find the cut fairly full and more suited for 8-12kt winds than the 20-25kt speed I requested.

I have contacted JudyB privately, as she requested, and asked if they could recut the foot and add the reefing marks that were supposed to be there. I was told it would all be at my expense as I instructed them to make a "full hoist sail" - I did not, I only told them I would trust their design and asked that it not chafe the lifelines. Needless to say, I am disappointed that JudyB and HydeSailsDirect are not standing behind their product, and disappointed in the inattention to detail that I have experienced with them. I wish I had a great experience with them - no one wants to go through this much grief and still end up with a poor sail after spending that type of money.

Others seem to have had a good experience with them, but mine has been less than stellar to say the least. As JudyB insists I pay for the fixes to my new sail, I will simply have a local loft do it. At this point I do not trust them to get it right, and I cannot see spending more money to them. I will spend it with a local loft as I should have done in the first place, and consider this an expensive lesson. JudyB, you seem like a nice person - I am disappointed in this outcome and feel I have been very patient and understanding throughout this.


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## jblumhorst

There are always two sides to a story and Jake is telling half of the story. 

We sent him the following email, with an offer to either refund his money 100% or pay a greatly reduced price for alteration. 

Jake approved ALL of the dimensions in writing. We sent him an email explicitly saying that the luff would be 36.2' long, compared with the maximum available space on his furler of 36.8' . We sent him a drawing of the sail and a rating certificate. (see the attached US Sailing Rating Certificate) . 

Despite his earlier authorization in writing, he has changed his mind about what he want, and expects us to pay to alter it. 

Judy Blumhorst
Owner, Hyde Sails Direct.

Here's the email I sent Jake

Jake,

That is a normal sail. There's nothing defective about it. It's like thousands of other jibs out there. Normal jibs hit the lifelines. Would you please send a picture showing what you are not happy about. Perhaps we can make a recommendation. 

Actually, you did indeed request a full length luff and normal tack height. According to my contemporaneous notes from March 27 and my call log, you instructed me as follows: 
"jake requests normal designs 112-115% with full hoist luff with normal tack height. per normal design considerations. space 20" grommets. . Judy to send quote bc area is increased." 

Furthermore, we sent you the dimensions in writing and with a drawing for your approval before we sent it to production. 

We stand behind our products, but that does not include unlimited changes to the order. At this point, we would like to offer you two options.

1) Return the sail for a full refund.
2) You tell us exactly what size to cut the sail to and we will do the recut for a fixed cost of $200 with no further liability on our part for alterations. The normal warranty will apply for one year. 

Regards,
Judy


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## Loki9

6" pennant at the tack?

100% refund offer is as good as it gets. What's the issue? Take it, or be happy with the sail.


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## Lazerbrains

I'm not going to get into a he said/she said, but suffice it to say that email "offer" was offered today, after I wrote this account of what happened. The earlier email stated that all alterations were on my dime, and offered no refund.

As I said, my "earlier authorization in writing" was after expressing my concerns to Judy that it would not foul the lifelines, and her assurances that it would not "except when downwind" - unfortunately, it does even when sheeted in tightly, drastically affecting sail shape of the luff. Not to mention that the second sail also came without features I asked and paid for, such as reefing markings, and incorrect tack attachment. Basic inattention to detail that has plagued this entire process. Furthermore, 

I am not a sail maker. I gave her detailed measurements and photos of my boat, and told her what I wanted out of the sail - specifically that it would be cut for higher wind speeds and that it would not foul on the lifelines. I was assured that it would fit my needs. I'm really not sure what else I could do as a customer. 

I had a local loft come look at the sail today, and will be having them adjust and recut the sail. I simply can't afford to waste more time with this. Incidentally, the local loft charges more than she does to do this repair, but I have used them before and trust them to do it correctly. I'm hardly doing this for fun, I just want a jib that works after 6 months of hassle and not sailing.


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## jblumhorst

I've made my statement and that's all I'm going to write on this forum. 

It's totally inappropriate and in violation of the Terms of Service for you to keep pushing your point. 
You are violating the Terms of Use of this Forum. 
See #9: Join this forum and use it to berate a vendor, dealer or manufacturer. If you have a grievance, please go elsewhere. 

Take it offline please.

Judy


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## albrazzi

My last two sails were ordered from a big name Sail Maker but outsourced and the quality and shape are good for my experience level anyway. Just to give an example of how simple things can get pretty goofed up I took a picture of my Logo and sail number sent to the loft (email) and although the logo was OK the sail number had one too many digits in it. When I looked at the email again the picture was upside down so I guess the Shrilankans don't do well with such challenges. I can see maybe getting the numbers transposed but adding a digit? Anyway they made everything right no complaints but dealing with an international transaction many more things can and do go wrong.


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## Lazerbrains

Loki9 said:


> 6" pennant at the tack?


That's the plan, to put a pennant at the tack. As it is full hoist, the foot needs to be cut away a bit to make this happen.

I have Quantum recutting the sail now - hopefully will have it back in a few days and be sailing again.


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## MastUndSchotbruch

jblumhorst said:


> I've made my statement and that's all I'm going to write on this forum.
> 
> It's totally inappropriate and in violation of the Terms of Service for you to keep pushing your point.
> You are violating the Terms of Use of this Forum.
> See #9: Join this forum and use it to berate a vendor, dealer or manufacturer. If you have a grievance, please go elsewhere.
> 
> Take it offline please.
> 
> Judy


I have no dog in this hunt, and as you say, there are often two sides to every story.

However, if it is true what lazer says, that you sent the email you are quoting AFTER he posted his description of the problem, you are at the very least misleading. It is nice and well to offer a 100% reimbursement but it would have been much more convincing if this offer had come BEFORE you learned that he is telling people on Sailnet about his bad experience with your company.

Calling this 'berating a vendor' and 'violating the terms of use of this forum' takes some chuzpah...


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## jblumhorst

On the internet, the customer is always right, and the vendor is always wrong. The best defense we have to protect our good name is to offer a 100% refund to a disgruntled customer We have done that on a few occasions in the past. We're still in business, and we have an A+ reputation on the better Business Bureau, from which you can assume that the vast majority of our customers have been happy with our sails.

I think we have acted honorably in this case. Yes there was a mistake on his first sail, which we offered to replace at no cost to him. But for the second sail, he changed the design brief. For the second sail, he specifically asked for a full hoist jib, not one that has a tack above the pulpit, after a long discussion. He told us he wanted to race in the Transpac with it, so we recommended a full hoist jib with a moderately high clew for reaching. He changed his mind several times about whether to have the sail tack near the deck or above the pulpit. Couldn't make up his mind. Because we were concerned about the lack of clarity from talking on the phone, we took particular care to inform him in writing about how big it would be and how long it would be on the furler before we sent it to production. 

He now denies that he approved the design specs we sent to him and he didn't understand that a full hoist jib hits the pulpit. That's not true. 

Here is the timeline from yesterday's event. All this happened in less than two hours. 

On May 10, 3 months ago, we shipped Jake's sail to him. He had approved the dimensions in writing. 
On June 10 he complained about his sail on this forum without contacting us.
On June 11, I replied on the forum, asking him to contact us directly. 
Between June 11 and yesterday, we heard nothing from him. 

Yesterday, the following emails were sent and received within an hour: 
8:24 am - Jake sent an email with his complaint and asking us to shorten the luff by a couple of feet so the tack would be above the pulpit on a sail that he's had since May. 
9:00 am - We open at 9 am. There were many phone calls from other customers in the first hour. 
9:32 am - We replied at 9:32 offering to recut his sail for half price, since he had approved the luff length.
9:38 am - I was on the phone with customers 
9:49 am - Jake rejected our offer via email at 9:49
10:30 am I started composing a 2nd offer to Jake, this one containing an offer to refund 100% of his purchase price or recut it for $200. (less than half price)
10:46 am - Sailnet sent a notice to non-business email folder that there was a new post in this thread. 
10:48 am - I sent a reply to jake at 10:48 offering to fix the sail for half price or refund his purchase price fully. I started composing the emal at approximately 10:30 and had another person on my staff read and approve it before clicking send.
6:15 pm - Jake posted a negative review on Yelp. Yelp send me a notification at about 10 am on the following morning. 
6:27 pm - I sent an email to Jake recinding my offer to recut the sail for $200 because I want nothing to do with him ever again. I confirmed that my offer to accept the sail for return and 100% refund was still valid. 
7:17 pm - Jake emailed me that he wanted to keep the sail. He stated that he had already hired Quantum to recut it. 

Subsequently Jake posted other negative review since then on several other locations. The notificatons are showing up in my inbox. I'll deal with those reviews as time allows, but for now I've got other customers to take care of.


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## Lazerbrains

jblumhorst said:


> we recommended a full hoist jib


This is absolutely correct. The design change was at JudyB's insistence - she also stated that the only way she would replace the messed up sail they sent the first time was to make it her way, and she wanted several measurements and photos. I told her I trusted her to make it correctly, after giving her proper measurements and photos, and stating my wishes for the sail.



jblumhorst said:


> He changed his mind several times about whether to have the sail tack near the deck or above the pulpit. Couldn't make up his mind. Because we were concerned about the lack of clarity from talking on the phone, we took particular care to inform him in writing about how big it would be and how long it would be on the furler before we sent it to production.


Actually, a more accurate statement would be that I expressed concern that the sail would hit the lifelines if the tack was below the pulpit, to which Judy assured me it would not except on a run - there was no lack of clarity, I was very specific. I am glad to see that she is confirming this as a concern (why else would I worry about the tack being above/below the pulpit as she correctly states). I told her that I would trust her regarding that and that yes, I approved the dimensions.

And I am glad that it is confirmed that I received the offer after I posted here, and after she saw the posting. Her earlier offer was to repair "at your expense".



jblumhorst said:


> Jake omitted one important detail in in his original post. He contacted Quantum to get a quote on recutting the foot, before he asked us to do it at no-charge. I'm sure the quote was pretty high. Why didn't he contact us BEFORE he got an outside quote


That is false. I contacted Quantum yesterday at 11am. They met me at noon at my boat. The quote is more expensive. I will let logic dictate why I chose it anyway.

Finally, there is a big difference between relaying my experiences and "berating a vendor". If you read my entire account, there were myriad problems with this order, starting with a miscut, baggy sail that wasn't even made of the correct fabric I ordered. The problems continued, including forgetting to order the replacement sail *twice*, forgetting again which fabric I ordered, not adding the reefing marks even though I reminded them via email, and more, over a period of 6 months - none of these othert issues are addressed. I do feel I have been patient and understanding.

As JudyB also confirmed, I am not even keeping her on the hook for a refund, and am having it recut at quite an expense locally. I am not sure why she keeps dredging this thread, but frankly, "blame the customer" is never a good look.

If these posts continue, I will post up photos of both sails and let others judge them for themselves.


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## smackdaddy

Judging by what I've seen thus far, and by Judy's very long history here - and her very long history of offering great service to happy customers via Hyde sails, I'm satisfied with her explanation. I think she did what she needed to do and was professional about it. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.


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## FreeAgent

Buying sails directly from an offshore loft requires buyer to be very precise and understand just what they want. Not many offshore lofts sell directly, perhaps for this reason.

Alternative, is to buy through an agent. If the agent is not where buyer is located, the same requirement for precise communication between buyer and agent is required.. Then on top of that, the agent must communicate precisely with the offshore loft. Not all agents are detail oriented and that is when things go wrong.

For those sailors who are not fully conversant with the details required to order a sail, they would be better off to buy from a sailmaker or an agent in their immediate area that they can talk to directly and who may come to the boat and discuss needs in detail.

We acted as local agents for both offshore and domestic sailmakers for 27 years. Sold countless sails. Can only recall twice having to have a new sail modified due to it it not fitting exactly or missing something that was required. Fortunately, this was before forums such as this existed!


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## Jeff_H

The Moderators are reviewing this thread. We are closing this thread as a violation of Rule #5. 

The internet is a poor medium for these types of discussions. Please treat this with an open mind. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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