# Hard bimini



## patrscoe (May 9, 2011)

I saw a sailboat with a hard bimini. Very interesting concept. 
I did some research online and saw someone built one and used starboard as a top surface.
Not saying I'm going to build one but again, I like the concept.

Does anyone have a hard bimini and any opinions about them? Pros and cons.

Patrick


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

My dodger extension/bimini is some kind of vinyl where as the dodger roof is fibreglass.

I am currently looking for a fibreglass sheet supplier down island as I want to replace the vinyl with a hardtop.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

TQA said:


> My dodger extension/bimini is some kind of vinyl where as the dodger roof is fibreglass.
> 
> I am currently looking for a fibreglass sheet supplier down island as I want to replace the vinyl with a hardtop.


You never fold the thing away ?

We have cockpit enclosure of canvas and clears with solar panels over. Theoretically one never needs to fold away the top but I always do when we sail as I like to be able to look up at the main. Even the solar panels block that to some extent and I'm thinking of moving them out the back onto an arch.

While I like the ability to enclose the cockpit there are just so many times when I want clear view up.

Andrew B


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

A hard Bimini is essentially an inexpensive version of a Tee-Top. I thought seriously about custom making a Tee-Top for my Morgan 33 O.I., but it was cost prohibitive. I've had Tee-Tops on five powerboats and they are very sturdy, solid as a rock, have great electronics boxes suspended on the underside of the top and you don't have nearly the number of vertical supports to climb around in order to reach the foredeck. Most have optional side curtains and some have full enclosures available that allow you to sail comfortably in cold weather. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

I had one made from a ss frame and fibreglass sheeting 2.5mm thick. The same stuff they use for refridgerated truck bodies.

I have clears back and sides and a polycarb 'windscreen' - works great. Can keep out of wind/sun/water etc or open it all up for air!


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

tdw said:


> You never fold the thing away ?
> 
> We have cockpit enclosure of canvas and clears with solar panels over. Theoretically one never needs to fold away the top but I always do when we sail as I like to be able to look up at the main. Even the solar panels block that to some extent and I'm thinking of moving them out the back onto an arch.
> 
> ...


Never gets folded away. If it is remade as hard I guess I would have to leave it up even in a hurricane where as I could strip the current one off in 20 minutes.

The dodger front can be unzipped for extra ventilation when hot.

I am tall enough and the current size of the bimini is such that I can look over the top to check sail set. Short crew complain though!


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

patrscoe:900672 said:


> I saw a sailboat with a hard bimini. Very interesting concept.
> I did some research online and saw someone built one and used starboard as a top surface.
> Not saying I'm going to build one but again, I like the concept.
> 
> ...


Our boat came with a soft bimini and soft dodger connected. As the canvas was over 6 years old in SoCal sunshine we looked to replace the material. After a number of quotes in the 6K range and wanting to install solar panels to the top we decided on building a one piece hard top to replace both the dodger and bimini. I built it with a foam core and 24.5oz roving-strand cloth with West epoxy and measures 10'w x 12'. I installed red-white lighting and a Lewmar Ocean hatch over the wheel similar to the existing ones elsewhere on DreamKetchr. It will have removable soft sides with eisenglass and screens. We're getting ready to mount it this month, and are looking forward to the idea that we'll not have to replace the soft top again as well as the add protection from weather.


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

sea_hunter said:


> Our boat came with a soft bimini and soft dodger connected. As the canvas was over 6 years old in SoCal sunshine we looked to replace the material. After a number of quotes in the 6K range and wanting to install solar panels to the top we decided on building a one piece hard top to replace both the dodger and bimini. I built it with a foam core and 24.5oz roving-strand cloth with West epoxy and measures 10'w x 12'. I installed red-white lighting and a Lewmar Ocean hatch over the wheel similar to the existing ones elsewhere on DreamKetchr. It will have removable soft sides with eisenglass and screens. We're getting ready to mount it this month, and are looking forward to the idea that we'll not have to replace the soft top again as well as the add protection from weather.


Pictures?


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

peterchech:901064 said:


> sea_hunter said:
> 
> 
> > Pictures?
> ...


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

For those in the planning stages, check this stuff out.

Solid cellular PVC Sheet | PVC Sheet Manufacturer | AZEK Sheet

PVC sheets, strong, maintenance free. Can bolt solar panels right to it, walk on it, etc.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

Azek will be gone in 2 years without UV protection and when it breaks it shatters, it's PVC.


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## Sic Semper Tyrannis (Feb 19, 2012)

sea_hunter said:


> Azek will be gone in 2 years without UV protection and when it breaks it shatters, it's PVC.


Isn't Azek billed as trim replacement in the construction trades?

Not sure why it would be used there if it was not Uv stabilized.

I have some on my house i used to replace some window sills and aprons.

Sure hope they last longer than 2 years.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

A house is not a boat and vinyl will not last like polyester or resin, but all need to be protected from the sun, stabilized or otherwise. Keep in mind PVC is used as trim, not as a structural component. Look at PVC boating accessories like horns, lights or ribs etc, they all turn to crap after a few years in the sun.


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

Wrong. Azak is uv protected and guaranteed for 25 years.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

The PVC I've seen used on boats didn't last. What does work are the fiberglass panels you can get at Home Cheapo or Lowe's. There still has to be bridgework to support the load just like any top. BTW, It's not just effects of the sun, but high salt, rain, wind and other extremes including mechanical loading are stresses that are not seen in a typical house. If your home's component fail, you rebuild, if it fails while boating it could be catastrophic. 
Having used it or or not isn't the issue. I've seen many a "boater" use all kinds of materials in their boats that ultimately fail. I wouldn't use bed sheets as sails either. Giving me attitude doesn't make you an authority either, yet does indicate your lack of understanding and experience.


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## BluemanSailor (Apr 28, 2009)

sea_hunter said:


> peterchech:901064 said:
> 
> 
> > Coming soon to a theater near you. It will be a progressive view from mockup to form to finishing to paint then on the boat. We're at the paint phase right now.
> ...


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

"AZEK Product will be free from manufacturing defects that cause the Product to rot, corrode, delaminate, or excessively swell from moisture for a period of twenty-five (25) years from the date of the original consumer purchase from an authorized AZEK dealer. "


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## patrscoe (May 9, 2011)

I am sure whatever material is used for the top decking, it can always be replaced when worn or broken, etc... just like canvas. There are several material out there that will last long enough, i.e. cellular pvc, genovations, fiberon, starboard, sea board, etc... Unless you are planning to stand on it, it only needs to be semi-structural as you would want your underside supports to bear the load including the wind.

When I saw the hard top bimini, my thoughts was the only con to this design is that if you needed to remove it due to high winds or incoming hurricane but then I was thinking of a panel system where you could remove the top deck and leave the stainless steel tubing and supports. 
Pros would be a stable and secure bimini, weather tight, hold up to winds, have a panel system for removal and one panel that would be tinted lexan so that you can view your main (just like our current canvas bimini), have it tie into the dodger for extra support and protection.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

2Gringos:901668 said:


> So, you haven't used it.
> 
> Nor do you know anything about it.
> 
> ...


Wow, you sure told me. I've been using architectural PVC for over 20 years. I even own a Heatcon bender for heating PVC as well as other composites in order to make different shapes. Azek explicitly descibes their materials as architectural only, not structural. Adding a hatch or solar panels describes structural, which Azek is NOT. This is clearly stated in Azek's technical data sheet. You still with me or has your mind wandered? PVC's cannot be used as structural building material, they are unable to withstand ANY load. Example, Azek post covers require a 4x4 post to hold it up when used as deck railing; it will structurally fail without this support. You forgot the most important part of the warranty; "if used for it's intended purpose". Now, if you've finished fingering your keyboard, I find I neither have the time nor the inclination to listen to your drivel. I would rather you kiss the water I sail upon and just say thanks and went on your way. Either way I don't give a damn, what you think you're entitled to nor what you think you know.


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

Azak is uv protected and guaranteed for 25 years.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

patrscoe said:


> I saw a sailboat with a hard bimini. Very interesting concept.
> I did some research online and saw someone built one and used starboard as a top surface.
> Not saying I'm going to build one but again, I like the concept.
> 
> ...


I have thought about making one rather than having a fabric one built. We are in the market, as it were.
We have gotten by fine in local waters for the last 15 years with a "narrow" hatch-width dodger. It's wonderful for keeping the rain out of the interior and extending our sailing season. Not much good for off shore sailing, though.
I have done deliveries on three boats with hard frp dodgers, and it's wonderful out in chilly ocean conditions with spray and mist in the air. Makes night watches a heck of a lot more bearable, too.
If you input 'hard dodger' into your search engine, there are a few good links that come up, but not many.
Of the commercial possibilities, I have seen several _Wave Stopper_'s installed. I consider it way overpriced for what you get, but those paying for it must dissagree, or they would not be paying for it. 

Try to overlook the occasional homebrew one in plywood panels that is designed like a box and twice as homely. Practical enough perhaps, but no row-away factor at all...

One guy at our club developed his own, starting with a foam and glass plug built right on the cabin. Then he built a mold. AFAIK two more have been molded out of his mold and it's residing in a local boat boatbuilders facility now. It looks beautiful, but would only fit a Cascade 36...
Talk about a Niche Market!


Keep us posted on what solutions you find or build.
Some URL's -- TARTAROOGA (tm) HARD DODGERS
Canvas Creations, Inc - Home of Wavestopper Hard Dodgers and supplier of do it yourself marine canvas parts for powerboat and sailboat located in Annapolis Maryland on the Chesapeake Bay close to the Baltimore Washington DC metropolitan area. 21401, 
Marine Products; Hard Dodger - ShipShape Products Inc - Boat and Marine Canvas and Upholstery

Refine your search with Google's help... and share your finds with us.

Regards,
L


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

2Gringos said:


> bottom line, YOU have NOT used this material for this application. Other people have used it. There's a thread going on another forum about it, right now.


I wouldn't use it on any boat. Apparently you didn't or can't comprehend this fact with your twerpy mind. Please find attached the Azek technical data. Refer to section *5.0 Conditions of Use*



> This product is an exterior PVC, formulated for outside use. It has a 25 year warranty. People are using it for hard bimini construction. Of COURSE it will support weight if supported by a suitable framework, the same as quarter inch plywood will support your weight with a frame under it. Anyone can see this. It makes you look foolish to snort and stamp around like you've made some kind of point when you haven't.


Yes, it's for outside use, not marine use. I could care less what others are doing. It's wrong. I've used this product for it's intended purpose, period. You could pull a condom over your head but I think it would work better as a rain gear, than a balaclava. It has an intended purpose, employing it otherwise doesn't make it right.



> One of us was trying to be helpful in this thread, pointing out a new material that people are having success using in this application.. One of us is trying to be negative.


Yes, one of us is negative. I'm merely reporting what Azek reports regarding their products made from PVC.










Since when is a boat a building? Perhaps when it made from concrete and PVC.

Here's a better product.
.090 FRP Wall Board 4FTx8FT White-MFTF12IXA480009600 at The Home Depot


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

BluemanSailor said:


> sea_hunter said:
> 
> 
> > CAN"T WAIT, I'm in the planning stages for a hardtop dodger and then a hard bimini. Collecting ideas now and anxious to see how yours turned out.
> ...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

St Anna said:


> I had one made from a ss frame and fibreglass sheeting 2.5mm thick. The same stuff they use for refridgerated truck bodies.
> 
> I have clears back and sides and a polycarb 'windscreen' - works great. Can keep out of wind/sun/water etc or open it all up for air!


StAnna .... the fibreglass sheet .... corrugated or flat ? Do you have a pic ?



TQA said:


> Never gets folded away. If it is remade as hard I guess I would have to leave it up even in a hurricane where as I could strip the current one off in 20 minutes.
> 
> The dodger front can be unzipped for extra ventilation when hot.
> 
> I am tall enough and the current size of the bimini is such that I can look over the top to check sail set. Short crew complain though!


Look over the top ? I presume you mean when standing on the aft deck behind the cockpit ?

I'm in two minds over this.

On the one hand I would like clear vision up though I acknowledge the need for some shade cover when the sun is blazing down. On the other hand moving the panels on top to an arch at the stern which would also necessitate a complete rejig of radar and wind generator mounts is going to be a very expensive proposition indeed.

At anchor we have full enclosure with one weakness .... if we leave the sides and back rolled up we get rain coming in. In hot weather closing up the enclosure is not much fun so we need something else to shield cockpit from rain and it would be nice if that something could be left up when sailing.

StAnna's fibreglass sheet and even ******'s PVC sheet ideas make me wonder whether for us a better option would be to fit a solid sheet under the existing solar panels with roll up curtains that tie out to the lifelines. Would allow air to circulate whilst keeping out the rain. hmmm ... have to give that a good looking at tomorrow.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Sea Hunter ..... that board you suggested is labelled for internal use only and doesn't mention UV stabilised at all whereas the PVS stuff does at least claim its for exterior use.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

tdw:901786 said:


> Sea Hunter ..... that board you suggested is labelled for internal use only and doesn't mention UV stabilised at all whereas the PVS stuff does at least claim its for exterior use.


Que?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

sea_hunter said:


> Que?





sea_hunter said:


> Here's a better product.
> .090 FRP Wall Board 4FTx8FT White-MFTF12IXA480009600 at The Home Depot


Product description says "interior use only".

I'm presuming therefore that its not really UV stable ?

I'm not trying to get involved in the bunfight between you and ****** but I'm wondering why the PVC is no good when it is supposedly UV stable but the other is OK ?

I confess I'd like the PVC to be suitable because it would suit me to use it. Fibreglass sheet is of course my other option. (non load bearing application btw)


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

The fiberglass panels from home depot are used extensively on boat tops here in New England. Most builder don't us the HD brand but get it from a supplier as it comes in 6x10' sheets as opposed to the 4x8. The one on our Trojan F32 is over 20 years old and still looks good and is leak free. Nobody I know building tops has ever used PVC. Of course one can use whatever they want if it makes you happy.


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

tdw said:


> StAnna .... the fibreglass sheet .... corrugated or flat ? Do you have a pic ?
> .












Flat sheets 2.0; 2.2; or 2.5 mm thick. 2.5 m wide and as long as you want!


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

Azak is uv protected and guaranteed for 25 years.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

2Gringos:901927 said:


> As for it not being suitable, well, people are using it to build hard biminis, and they like it. There's a thread about that going on now on another boating forum. These are people with actual experience with it. Not people who suddenly start claiming that they HAVE used it, when previously stating that they had not used it.
> 
> The first objection was that it was not UV stabilized and would shatter in two years. That was shown to be complete Bullchit. It is uv protected and guaranteed 25 years.
> 
> ...


At least one hatch or portlight is required do keep an eye on the rigging; many have 2 or 3. Your ignorance of the requirements is staggering, obviously you're not a sailor nor a boater.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Hi TDW

No standing required! I can see most of the main andl al of the leech where the tell tails are from the seated helm position. I have an arch seat across the back of the cockpit.


From BOMBAY


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

Looks good. I see that your windscreen is at an optimal angle. Can you see the masthead while at the wheel?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

St Anna said:


> Flat sheets 2.0; 2.2; or 2.5 mm thick. 2.5 m wide and as long as you want!


That was how I remembered it from pics you posted some time back. How did you fabricate it ?

(Damn RC is a lovely boat. Simply looks right.)

Cheers

Andrew B

or am I misreading the pic ? Are the curves in the GRP or is it simply flat sheet on top with the curves in canvas ?


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

tdw said:


> That was how I remembered it from pics you posted some time back. How did you fabricate it ?
> 
> (Damn RC is a lovely boat. Simply looks right.)Thanks. I agree
> 
> ...


It is a flat sheet which came on a huge roll, so it is connected to the ss frame by self tappers and then just rolled over the edges so, - slight camber until near the edge where the camber increases. No canvas. I'll get a few photos on Monday if I remember.

The bloke who made the sides/back and poly windscreen has it on his website as one of 'his' jobs - Daves custom trimmers
Polycarb


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

sea_hunter said:


> Made from West System, 10' W X 12' X 1" thick, and yes you can dance on it.
> 
> Picture taken a few months back while still in the jig, before I cut the hole for the hatch.


Very nice. How much does it weigh?


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## LarryandSusanMacDonald (Apr 3, 2005)

I built a hard bimini for our Morgan Out Island a few years ago. I don't want to get into any contentious disputes about materials other than to say I used 1/2 inch thick corrugated fiberglass sheet covered with the Home depot sheeting spoken of above. I attached it to the existing bimini frame. I edged it with the PVC material which is holding up as well as can be expected. The whole thing is sturdy enough to walk on.

I built it for three reasons:
#1. It was difficult to fold up and stow the mainsail which is entirely above the cockpit. Now I can walk on the bimini and it's no problem. 
#2. It gets expensive replacing the canvas on a large bimini every few years, even if you have the luxury of having a wife who has the talent to do the work, which I have.
#3. I forget what the third reason was.

But that's not what I came here to tell you.

What I want to mention is that in the course of building our hard bimini, I built into the corners a water collection system. When we get a hard rain, we plug some plastic hoses into the corners and run them to a jerry jug.

Often, in a hard rain, we can collect about 25 gallons in less than an hour. If it continues to rain, Saltwater Suzi sends me out to empty the jugs into the tank and put them back in place. So we get another 25 gallons and I get a nice fresh water shower. She always has a towel and a rum waiting for me when I'm finished.





































So if you cruise, you may want to consider adding this feature.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I like to be able to fold down my dodger and lay it right on the deck sometimes to get air circulation. Having a permanent structure that blocks the view of the Windex and sails is not something I'd want, but everyone to their own taste. IMO, sailing is about being outside, not constantly under cover.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

A hard dodger and permanent bimini is a good idea. When it's raining you are dry in the cockpit. When it's sunny you are protected from UV and in the cool shade. Come to think of it, I can't think of a single time that I wished I didn't have a hard dodger and permanent bimini. I have an opening hatch on the hard dodger roof and a opening panel in the windscreen for ventilation, but because one is out of the sun, the need for ventilation is less. I have no see-through panel to see the masthead, but it's easy to just look around the edge of the bimini to see the windex. My dodger is made of divinicell and fiberglass and is light and very strong.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

LarryandSusanMacDonald:902444 said:


> I built a hard bimini for our Morgan Out Island a few years ago. I don't want to get into any contentious disputes about materials other than to say I used 1/2 inch thick corrugated fiberglass sheet covered with the Home depot sheeting spoken of above. I attached it to the existing bimini frame. I edged it with the PVC material which is holding up as well as can be expected. The whole thing is sturdy enough to walk on.
> 
> I built it for three reasons:
> #1. It was difficult to fold up and stow the mainsail which is entirely above the cockpit. Now I can walk on the bimini and it's no problem.
> ...


+1 or maybe +2.0, probably a Phi.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

SVAuspicious:902298 said:


> Very nice. How much does it weigh?


LOL, yeah we don't talk about that. More than a box of chocolates but les than a Hyundai or at least a couple or three hundred pounds. It's all realative though; before the top she weighed 46200lbs.


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

There is no requirement to install a hatch anyplace on a boat whatsoever.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Gringos and Sea Hunter.

Cool it. If you want to have a slanging match take it to Anarchy or Off Topic but not here. Simply because you disagree with one another does not mean you get to play verbal fisticuffs.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

tdw:902796 said:


> Gringos and Sea Hunter.
> 
> Cool it. If you want to have a slanging match take it to Anarchy or Off Topic but not here. Simply because you disagree with one another does not mean you get to play verbal fisticuffs.


Excuse me?


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

2Gringos:902762 said:


> As for me not being a a sailor or a boater?
> 
> Tell you what, big mouth, I'll call you on that one, too. Lets put a thousand bucks on it, okay?


I rest my case.


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## LarryandSusanMacDonald (Apr 3, 2005)

My golly, goodness gracious, boys. No wonder folks are leaving sailnet.


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

It is a shame that two probably decent guys in other respects feel like they need to behave like such jackasses to each other on the forum.....


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

St Anna said:


> It is a flat sheet which came on a huge roll, so it is connected to the ss frame by self tappers and then just rolled over the edges so, - slight camber until near the edge where the camber increases. No canvas. I'll get a few photos on Monday if I remember.
> 
> The bloke who made the sides/back and poly windscreen has it on his website as one of 'his' jobs - Daves custom trimmers
> Polycarb


Thanks mate. I get the idea now. I don't need to roll it over like that but the 2.5mm should be flexible enough to allow a slight camber at the edges.

If you look at the following pic you'll see our current setup. We fold the beige canvas away when sailing. Plan is to instal sheet directly under the panels which will completely shade the cockpit and then add canvas wings out to lifelines, backstays and forward under the boom. All of which would only be deployed at anchor. End result would be shade from setting sun and protection from rain without the need to drop the side clears in hot rainy muggy weather. I'm thinking to put a boltrope onto the wings and attach boltrope channel to the sheet.


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

tdw said:


> Thanks mate. I get the idea now. I don't need to roll it over like that but the 2.5mm should be flexible enough to allow a slight camber at the edges.
> Yeah, definately
> If you look at the following pic you'll see our current setup. We fold the beige canvas away when sailing. Plan is to instal sheet directly under the panels which will completely shade the cockpit and then add canvas wings out to lifelines, backstays and forward under the boom. All of which would only be deployed at anchor. End result would be shade from setting sun and protection from rain without the need to drop the side clears in hot rainy muggy weather. I'm thinking to put a boltrope onto the wings and attach boltrope channel to the sheet.
> You can do that in uv preotected vinyl - just slides in and out


Pretty sweet looking beasty and please forgive me if I make a faux par, but is that a HR windscreen type situation occuring????


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

St Anna said:


> Pretty sweet looking beasty and please forgive me if I make a faux par, but is that a HR windscreen type situation occuring????


Close but no cigar ..... Malo. 

Havn't you seen pics of her before ? She's a Malo 39 Classic. Some weird Scandinavian logic going on there as she is actually 42'. Such it is.


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

since I am interested in a hard bimini top myself, I continue to research it and find some other folks are also having good luck with 1/2" Decolite. This has also gotten my attention.
http://www.compositepanelsolutions.com/decolite/


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

bigdogandy said:


> It is a shame that two probably decent guys in other respects feel like they need to behave like such jackasses to each other on the forum.....


and if there is just one more post that continues this stupid spat someone is going on a short vacation.

****** ... that someone disagrees with you does not mean they called you a liar. I've asked you to quit it but you carry on regardless. This is a second warning, you don't get a third.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

Sometimes, it's just hard to... step away from... the keyboard....


(I've had days like that!)


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