# Bad experiences while sailing



## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

Hello all , just wondering the bad experiences you all have had while sailing. Locally or particularly for those that have sailed around the world. 

Happy Friday!


irateraft:irateraft::2 boat::cut_out_animated_em:boat :


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## SVGonzo (Jan 19, 2018)

I had a macerater impeller reverse on me filling my bilge with out holding tank contents. That was a drag. Haha


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

SVGonzo said:


> I had a macerater impeller reverse on me filling my bilge with out holding tank contents. That was a drag. Haha
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That would be a really "$hitty" experience for sure......

:eek
:captain:


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## SVGonzo (Jan 19, 2018)

I guess it is common if you accidentally run it with the holding tank closed. Learn from my mistake. 


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Reading sailnet while at anchor in paradise...


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

aeventyr60 said:


> Reading sailnet while at anchor in paradise...


Only when you're sober.
I much prefer reading when I'm "3 sheets to the wind".

Try it. :angel


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

sailforlife said:


> Hello all , just wondering the bad experiences you all have had while sailing. Locally or particularly for those that have sailed around the world.
> 
> Happy Friday!
> 
> irateraft:irateraft::2 boat::cut_out_animated_em:boat :


I'm sure you'll get a lot of stories. You've probably asked the question because you're wondering what you're going to be faced with out there.

The key to minimizing (but still never entirely eliminating) unpleasant experiences is to be forward thinking in all aspects.

- Inspect *all* gear and equipment on a regular, rotating basis. Develop a maintenance schedule.
- Supplementing the point above, ensure that all of your personal safety equipment is complete and serviceable.
- Identify and carry critical spares. (filters, impellers, certain pumps, rigging bits, maybe an alternator.)
- Replace wear items at the appropriate intervals, and don't cut corners or cheap out.
- Monitor the weather regularly.
- Reduce sail early.
- When sailing in congested areas, telegraph your intentions by maneuvering early. 
- Call on the VHF early.
- Be conservative, but don't suffer "analysis paralysis." Doing nothing is as dangerous as doing the wrong thing.
- Pay attention to small details. (screws, cotter pins, clevis pins, ring-dings, weepy leaks, etc.)

These are all just examples. The point is- always think ahead, act early, be proactive and you'll rarely be caught with your pants down.

I'm not a circumnavigator but I've sailed offshore, completely solo. These are the philosophies I adhere to.

As a result, I really don't have any really good stories to share with you.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Cheesy bolt sheared on macerator pump causing tank leak to the bilge in Avalon Harbor with the tank full of fluorescent orange dye.


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

2 Rescued in Branford, CT, Boat Fire | New England Boating & Fishing


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Only when you're sober.
> I much prefer reading when I'm "3 sheets to the wind".
> 
> Try it. :angel


Some of us expected this, but are surprised it is only 3.

Btw - I don't think I've ever had a"bad" experience sailing. I've had crappy ****ty experiences where I was happy for it to end and where boat and body parts broke. Those weren't bad experiences, I survived all of them and am still sailing so those were all good in the big picture. I doubt if anyone really learns anything about boating without those crappy ****ty events and they are the only real way to really be ready for the bad experiences.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Only when you're sober.
> I much prefer reading when I'm "3 sheets to the wind".
> 
> Try it. :angel


It's the commenting here after a few G & T's..maybe I just need to smoke a blunt or two.irateraft:


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

SVGonzo said:


> I had a macerater impeller reverse on me filling my bilge with out holding tank contents. That was a drag. Haha
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Issues with Marine Heads pretty much tops the list IMO. Exhibit A:


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

Running out of beer on the third day of a week charter in the Keys. We thought we might make our way to a marina or some populated place. My first mate, an Irish Catholic gal, was threatening mutiny. We stopped in the Bahia Honda State Park. Their state-run camper stores are not allowed to sell alcohol. I walked the parking lot looking to hitch a ride out of the park to the nearest liquor store. A fellow sailor from Alabama, who was there with his 24 foot Catalina trailer sailer, upon hearing my plight, insisted upon unhitching his trailer and driving me on a beer run. He told his wife, "Honey, I'm going to drive this man to get some beer". She completely understood. 

It was a scary time but we made it through it.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

mbianka said:


> Issues with Marine Heads pretty much tops the list IMO. Exhibit A:


Some ****ty business , I might look into a composting toilet..... Less to deal with....

irateraft:


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Cant really think of too many bad experiences while sailing. Been knocked down, capsized, pitch poled, sea sick, cold, tired, but none of those are really bad experiences, theyre kind of the point, thats what makes it an adventure.

Gear failures I guess must be the worst, especially a rigging failue. Something like a halyard braking can be pretty frustrating. Ive had more bad experiences while motoring, anchored, docked but sailing i have been pretty lucky I guess.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

Arcb said:


> Cant really think of too many bad experiences while sailing. Been knocked down, capsized, pitch poled, sea sick, cold, tired, but none of those are really bad experiences, theyre kind of the point, thats what makes it an adventure.
> 
> Gear failures I guess must be the worst, especially a rigging failue. Something like a halyard braking can be pretty frustrating. Ive had more bad experiences while motoring, anchored, docked but sailing i have been pretty lucky I guess.


What was the knocked down like ?

irateraft:


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

sailforlife said:


> What was the knocked down like ?
> 
> irateraft:


I dont know. You can get knocked down when you are pushing your luck a bit. Can happen in a tack when something jams. Can happen with a big gust. Keel boat you need to get the pressure off the sails, either clear a sheet or wait for the gust to subside before the boat starts getting too much water in it.

On a centre boardeder or very lightly ballasted boat, pop the main sheet and try to climb over the windward gunnwale onto to centre board before the boat capsizes.

Like I mentioned, I have never had one that was a bad experience because the boat or crew took care of the problem, before it turned into a serious problem.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Arcb said:


> Cant really think of too many bad experiences while sailing. Been knocked down, capsized, pitch poled, sea sick, cold, tired, but none of those are really bad experiences, theyre kind of the point, thats what makes it an adventure.
> 
> *Gear failures I guess must be the worst, especially a rigging failue.* Something like a halyard braking can be pretty frustrating. Ive had more bad experiences while motoring, anchored, docked but sailing i have been pretty lucky I guess.


A rigging failure and dismasting is my personal boogeyman. Nothing gives me the heebie-jeebies more.

I found hairline cracks in the lower swages on my Pearson 30, so I replaced everything.
The Tartan is much better but the age is still unknown, so I'll replace all of that, and pull the chainplates for inspection.


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## justin forkix (Oct 12, 2017)

jppp: Were you on board for that??? If so, any words of wisdom to share front he experience? That is a personal nightmare of mine ...


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

I forgot that I had swallowed a cherry pit and when it hit the macerator a day or so later it stopped it cold. I was helping to deliver a boat for an owner/friend. Had to dig down deep to try and get it out, then had to pull head apart: performed while seriously hung over (tequila hung over).


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

Arcb said:


> Cant really think of too many bad experiences while sailing. Been knocked down, capsized, pitch poled,.....


when you say "capsized" and "pitch poled" were you completely turtled? Did your boat self right? How long did it take, and how much water came in? Were you below decks with the hatch closed? What kind of boat do you have ?

Thanks, Bill


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Prob a beach cat


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Yes,when I'm talking pitch pole and capsize I'm talking about small boat sailing. Not just beach cats, but definitely 25 feet and under. 

Biggest boat I pitch poled on was a Melges- in that case it was a pitch pole promptly followed by a knock down. Spinnaker went up, bow went down, stern went up, 90 degree rotation, boat laid over on it's side, then came back up. Fun ride but the owner/skipper was none to impressed. I have pitch poled my beach cat as well. That can actually be a fairly wild ride.

Like pretty well all dinghy sailors I have capsized a variety of shapes and sizes. No big deal. It's expected. It can be a pain if they don't have self bailing cockpits and an even bigger pain if they have cuddy cabins. Turtled beach cats are a pain.

Not generally bad experiences though provided you don't get trapped under anything and can get the boat righted before you get too cold.


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## driggers (Aug 23, 2012)

Caught a crab trap line in the prop. Had to dive under boat to cut us loose.

Bought a boat and discovered that almost everything needs fixing


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

We have had our ups and downs, so to speak, but Arcb's comments brought back one incident that I call a bad experience. My wife and I were racing a thunderstorm on our 15 foot Albacore, and we lost. Large waves and high winds enveloped the boat, in short order we were capsized and I was pinned under the mainsail. The waves pushed the sail down while my PFD held me up against the underside...I was beginning to panic as I swallowed water. I always have a knife in my pocket and was just about to cut through the sail when suddenly I popped up beside it. It took a while to sort everything out and get the boat sailing again but the water was warm and the worst of the storm had passed quickly.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

*The Worst of Nights/the Best of Nights*

Got knocked off a foredeck during a sail change at night due to an inattentive helmsman. No tether, no life-jacket. It was a s-l-o-w race so the boats were bunched together and I got picked up by the boat behind ours. They darn near ran over me and were as surprised when I hollered at them as I was when their bow wave washed over me while i was looking toward the fading stern light on our boat. Finished the race on their boat. Haven't done a night head sail change since. 1968....


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

i have never had a BAD experience sailing, but have had many learning experiences and a knockdown of coronado 25 off catalina...heavy weather with lightning in gom, prefrontals and chubascos in pacific. lack of christmas trade winds in caribbean one december, .. line squalls in hudson river sailing an engineless gaff rigged raceabout. exited cabin of a friends boat to be damned near killeded dead by a flying mainsheet traveller block..wooohaaaa....grabbed it and secured it before it came back for a redo, as it barely missed first time..
heard sounds of increasing rpm/speed over ground on my way to mazatlan 2011, which were followed by a loud bang, which was preventer breaking the taff... ok no preventing to taff any more..use hawse..good already done by smart crew, as we managed 8.4 kts sog for over 2 hours... awesome ride!!! wind was only 60+ mph. no i still have not replaced that length of teak, i may not. it has character after a semi adequate repair.
there is nothing involved with sailing that can be bad--there are man induced/involved badnesses, which are preventable, and have little, if anything, to do with sailing. those i know about first hand.


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## patrolman (Jan 23, 2018)

Not mine but someone I used to work with was doing one of the Mexico races, got hit in the chin by a flailing clew, bit off the tip off his tongue and bled out before he could be rescued. RIP Jim.

Sorry if I pulled a Debbie Downer in a thread that was meant to be light hearted.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

*Re: The Worst of Nights/the Best of Nights*



svHyLyte said:


> Got knocked off a foredeck during a sail change at night due to an inattentive helmsman. No tether, no life-jacket. It was a s-l-o-w race so the boats were bunched together and I got picked up by the boat behind ours. They darn near ran over me and were as surprised when I hollered at them as I was when their bow wave washed over me while i was looking toward the fading stern light on our boat. Finished the race on their boat. Haven't done a night head sail change since. 1968....


So what did you say to the inattentive helmsman?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Its hard to say what you mean by bad experiences because as others seemed to imply, if everyone comes back alive and un-maimed its not too bad an experience. But if you sail long enough you will experience some pretty unpleasant experiences. In my life, I certainly have had a few. 

For example, I have been on two boats that lost their rigs. On one of those, the mast went over the side in shallow water and the head of the mast stuck in the bottom. A wave picked the boat up and dropped it on the other end of the stub of the mast, splitting a bottom plank, so that we did not know what to do first; drop an anchor to keep from drifting onto a shoal, retrieve the mast, or bail. 

I have death rolled a Tartan 41 out in the Atlantic. Tartan 41's (like its smaller cousin the Tartan 37's) will death roll without much warning. In this case, we had used the boom vang as a preventer taken to an eye on the rail below the boom. We had gone down with the spinnaker pole deep into the water and the boom pointing near vertically at the sky, leaving the mainsail back-winded, pinned by the vang and holding the boat down hard. The boat was sliding along on her topsides, the decks in the water up to the house and getting rolled by each wave. Water poured through the companionway with each wave. I was the mast man and so was standing at the winch farm behind the mast when this started. 

As we went over. I grabbed the vang just below the boom and now was hanging vertically from the vang, my feet off the deck. And as I hung there trying to figure out how to get back to the deck, all I could hear from the cockpit was "Blow the vang, Blow the Vang, DAMMIT BLOW THE VANG". I was able to swing enough that my foot caught a winch on the deck and with just minimal footing was able to drop onto the deck, put the vang tail on a winch and 'blow the vang'. 

I was on a Pearson Vanguard that hit a rock hard enough to pierce the keel encapsulation envelope, drive the ballast keel upward, pushing the water tank against the cabin sole damaging both. 

I pitched poled small race boats landing in the water just as the boat came over next to me. 

In a squall I tried to beach a small Catamaran on a spit of land in Barnegat Bay but was moving so fast that I actually sailed up on the spit and back into the water on the other side of the spit (but at least there was a little lee there) 

My second wife took a fall from the windward rail and went over the side during a knockdown, she somehow missed the the grab rails and life lines, but managed to snag the stern rail as it went past and three big guys hauled her back aboard. (We still managed to finish second in that race). 

Probably the worst thing I went through was fighting a March storm out in the Atlantic for three three days in a 1908 Herreshoff. There was not a dry piece of clothing or food on that boat. We were pretty hypothermic, and seasick from the cold, and the boat was leaking pretty badly. 

These were the days of cotton thermals and really lousy foul weather gear so we all ended up with really bad salt water sores that left blood stains on whatever they touched and mine did not heel for months. 

We took some pretty dramatic knock downs, bailed pretty much around the clock. Could not get a line of position because of the overcast skies. 

I have told this story before but we ended up trying to get into St. Augustine inlet at twilight, took to bottom, springing a plank, damaged the rudder and snapping off the tiller. The tiller split horizontally, ending up with sharp edges slicing back and forth through the cockpit until we could lasso it with a line and lash a piece of 2 x 4 to it well enough to steer. We beat out to sea to get sea room and figure out where we were before taking another stab at the channel. We made it that time. 

Then there was coming back from my honeymoon. It was a breezy night, and the steering gave out. This was a rack and pinion steering system and the steering push/pull rod snapped and was whipping around poking holes in the bulkhead and threatening the hull. Meanwhile, we were in a shipping channel and there was a ship coming our way. I managed to throw a wire tie on the push/pull arm quickly, then sail out of the channel by balancing the sails. My poor new bride was badly seasick hunkered down on the cockpit sole in case there was an accidental jibe, and thinking "This is my honeymoom?" 

Stuff happens out there. Why do you ask? 

Jeff


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

*Re: The Worst of Nights/the Best of Nights*



sailforlife said:


> So what did you say to the inattentive helmsman?


That is not fit for a family friendly forum. And he was abject. Parenthetically, with everyone's seemingly mesmerized with iphone and instrument screens and apparently unable to watch sails and telltales these daze, I suspect the problem is/will be more widespread.

FWIW...


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

*Re: The Worst of Nights/the Best of Nights*



svHyLyte said:


> That is not fit for a family friendly forum. And he was abject. Parenthetically, with everyone's seemingly mesmerized with iphone and instrument screens and apparently unable to watch sails and telltales these daze, I suspect the problem is/will be more widespread.
> 
> FWIW...


I've had race crew simply drop their jib sheet on the cockpit sole and stop trimming _*in the middle of a race*_ just to browse the web on their smartphone.

...and people wonder why I singlehand.


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

Yes on board. Day after Labor Day about 5 years ago. Left the dock at 7:30 in zero wind, rain and fog. Thought hot coffee would be a good idea. On went the solenoid (saftey switch), on went the lighter, no flame..........huh, no flame............Hey! did you kick the throttle?? No, didn't touch it. Then why is she revving?......Holy SH_T Batman! SHUT OFF SAFETY SOLENOID which stopped the propane. Only because I didnt want to deal with non functioning stove while diagnosing the ever increasing revs of the engine. Yanked on the engine cut off. Nada. Now she's screaming. Last thought before it seized was to remove the stairs for access to the port side of engine and the air intake so I could choke it. Then after the seize came a backfire which ignited all the propane that had been flooding into engine compartment. I was knocked to the v berth and burned the hair on my face. Got up and saw a wall of flames pouring out of the engine compartment. As well as through the access panel in the quarter berth. The explosion lit everything in the engine compartment including the BRAND NEW, JUST INSTALLED PLASTIC FUEL TANK which was full of diesel. That's when I yelled "GET OFF THE BOAT!" to my buddy. This is when the clock started ticking in my head. The fire was massive down below mostly contained to the engine compartment. Above was the cockpit. In the cockpit was a lazarett that held the full propane tank. under the tiller was another lazarette which is where we kept the gas can for the small outboard. Both compartments were purpose built for fuel just sayin'. It's hard to think straight when you know you might only have seconds to live. I went through the forward hatch and threw the anchor out, as we were drifting towards shore. Did I mention the newly installed fuel tank? That's kinda important. We both got in the dinghy without paddles, they were stored down below and were on fire at this point. I grabbed an old genoa sheet and held us off the boat about 60 feet. Phone calls, police, seatow, fire department...... Since the fire was mostly the fuel in engine compartment by now, the fire hose gun thingy could only spray down the companion way into cabin. Took 'bout and hour and a half and three trys to extinguish fire. The first to arrive and take us off the dinghy was I believe the son of the mgr of Bruce and Johnson in Branford CT. Second was the police. We all stood by as they tried to extinguish the fire. 
So I beleive my shutting off the solenoid was the reason I am typing this. Otherwise the propane would have kept flooding the engine compartment and blah blah blah. 
If ever I hear a runaway engine again I will go staright to engine air intake. I will never turn on the propane while engine is running. I will inspect all work by others and make sure they don't drill blind holes in bulkheads severing the propane line that runs through engine compartment. Just Sayin'
jon


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

jppp said:


> ....don't drill blind holes in bulkheads severing the propane line that runs through engine compartment. Just Sayin'
> jon


Not directly related to your post...
I like the habit of closing the propane off at the tank after use.
Only one valve...one step


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

Jppp

An exciting tale that could have turned out much worse. I am truly glad that you are still here. Your experience highlights something that has long puzzled me. We sail a boat with a gas powered engine and have read and heard many criticisms about the danger involved. I respect the viewpoint... but the same sailors seemingly have no qualms about living in a craft with several meters of lines connecting many liters of volatile propane to various appliances. Just saying...


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

jppp said:


> Yes on board. Day after Labor Day about 5 years ago. Left the dock at 7:30 in zero wind, rain and fog. Thought hot coffee would be a good idea. On went the solenoid (saftey switch), on went the lighter, no flame..........huh, no flame............Hey! did you kick the throttle?? No, didn't touch it. Then why is she revving?......Holy SH_T Batman! SHUT OFF SAFETY SOLENOID which stopped the propane. Only because I didnt want to deal with non functioning stove while diagnosing the ever increasing revs of the engine. Yanked on the engine cut off. Nada. Now she's screaming. Last thought before it seized was to remove the stairs for access to the port side of engine and the air intake so I could choke it. Then after the seize came a backfire which ignited all the propane that had been flooding into engine compartment. I was knocked to the v berth and burned the hair on my face. Got up and saw a wall of flames pouring out of the engine compartment. As well as through the access panel in the quarter berth. The explosion lit everything in the engine compartment including the BRAND NEW, JUST INSTALLED PLASTIC FUEL TANK which was full of diesel. That's when I yelled "GET OFF THE BOAT!" to my buddy. This is when the clock started ticking in my head. The fire was massive down below mostly contained to the engine compartment. Above was the cockpit. In the cockpit was a lazarett that held the full propane tank. under the tiller was another lazarette which is where we kept the gas can for the small outboard. Both compartments were purpose built for fuel just sayin'. It's hard to think straight when you know you might only have seconds to live. I went through the forward hatch and threw the anchor out, as we were drifting towards shore. Did I mention the newly installed fuel tank? That's kinda important. We both got in the dinghy without paddles, they were stored down below and were on fire at this point. I grabbed an old genoa sheet and held us off the boat about 60 feet. Phone calls, police, seatow, fire department...... Since the fire was mostly the fuel in engine compartment by now, the fire hose gun thingy could only spray down the companion way into cabin. Took 'bout and hour and a half and three trys to extinguish fire. The first to arrive and take us off the dinghy was I believe the son of the mgr of Bruce and Johnson in Branford CT. Second was the police. We all stood by as they tried to extinguish the fire.
> So I beleive my shutting off the solenoid was the reason I am typing this. Otherwise the propane would have kept flooding the engine compartment and blah blah blah.
> If ever I hear a runaway engine again I will go staright to engine air intake. I will never turn on the propane while engine is running. I will inspect all work by others and make sure they don't drill blind holes in bulkheads severing the propane line that runs through engine compartment. Just Sayin'
> jon


You sir, are the winner. Just lock up this thread right now.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Well told.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

paulinnanaimo said:


> Jppp
> 
> An exciting tale that could have turned out much worse. I am truly glad that you are still here. Your experience highlights something that has long puzzled me. We sail a boat with a gas powered engine and have read and heard many criticisms about the danger involved. I respect the viewpoint... but the same sailors seemingly have no qualms about living in a craft with several meters of lines connecting many liters of volatile propane to various appliances. Just saying...


I have been touting the safety aspects of kerosene vs. propane many times. Another data point...


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

RegisteredUser said:


> Not directly related to your post...
> I like the habit of closing the propane off at the tank after use.
> Only one valve...one step


Correct! Always--- No reason to have the tank valve open unless one is planning on cooking and the effort involved takes only a few minutes, if that. We NEVER, leave the tank valve open unless gas is needed.

FWIW...


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I'm not going back to cooking with flammable liquids.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Jeff, That's nothing!!! Once caught a jelly fish in the intake for the refer. Nobody noticed until the beer got warm. Tell ya ,that was BAD!!


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

jppp said:


> So I beleive my shutting off the solenoid was the reason I am typing this. Otherwise the propane would have kept flooding the engine compartment and blah blah blah.
> If ever I hear a runaway engine again I will go staright to engine air intake. I will never turn on the propane while engine is running. I will inspect all work by others and make sure they don't drill blind holes in bulkheads severing the propane line that runs through engine compartment. Just Sayin'
> jon


You are one lucky sailor. I had a yikes moment inspecting the aging propane stove on my boat one spring: THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: RETHINKING PROPANE ON BOARD
Looked at the refurbishing costs and decided to use a single burner propane canister stove. Has worked great and do not miss the extra burners at all. Plus no worries about aging leaking propane hoses either.


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## Untrained (Aug 10, 2015)

RE: Jeff H 
Good God Man! And you still sail? LOL


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## Skyeterrier (Feb 11, 2016)

Nothing so exciting as GIANT PROPANE FIRE but I was seasick as a dog for a solid day and a half heading West across the Florida panhandle helping my buddy delivery his new sailboat to his marina, after 20 some odd years of never really being sick worse than mild queasiness while sailing. Like, go below to get my foulie jacket because it's pouring rain and I have to, and instantly start retching the moment my head was below deck kind of seasick. Ugh. After a night of sleep in Panama City marina, somehow I felt fine and was able to eat pizza, seafood, the whole magilla and the second leg of our trip was blue skies, pleasant breeze and totally enjoyable.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

ON a very rough trip down the coast the captains woman suggested she could service all three of us all the way to Columbia and back. Seemed like a good idea but for queasy and just batfecal crazy. Got off in San Diego so missed out on an adventure to die for.


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