# Hanse, Bavaria, Beneteau, Tartan, ... ???



## badadim (Jul 2, 2007)

I am looking for new 39-45 foot cruiser for 3 years adventure with my wife and two kids (1 and 4 at the start, so 4 and 7 at the end of the journey). Starting east coast and Caribbean, but like to have an option going cross Atlantic or Pacific later. I plan to sell the boat after that with the idea to downsize for summer and weekend on Great Lakes (C&C 99 is in my dreams since its release; I summer-sail J-24 for 6 years now).

90% single-hand as one of us is with the kids. Will try to avoid 25+ knots. For long runs and ocean crossing will hire an experienced sailor. Will equip the boat with options. Safety and comfort are major factors, and then come resale demand and value. Ready for reasonable on-going cost without compromising safety and comfort for money.

After reading postings on this forum I excluded used, custom and low production boats and came to these four brands: Hanse, Bavaria, Beneteau, Tartan. I plan to test-sale different sizes and look at as many models as I can out of these four.

I understand Tartan does not belong to this group, at least this is an impression I got looking at its price. Does it mean this also outperform on qualities and capabilities? What else is different in between these four: purpose, service, warranty, resale, standard features, options available, maintenance?

I also posted a question in this queue comparing center to aft cockpits and after reading replies I am leaning towards center. This filters my list to Beneteau. Am I right? If yes, is this a right move not to conceder other brands because CC is not available there?

Appreciate your input.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I only have experience with Beneteau and Bavaria. The Bavaria is very nicely appointed, but the Beneteau is a lot more fun to sail. Have sailed Beneteaus a lot in the Pacific NorthWest; they run so well... A good friend of mine sailed a Bavaria from Gibraltar to Ireland and while it was comfortable, it wasn't as much fun to sail. Depends what's important to you. They're both great boats IMHO.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

I think beneteau dropped the smaller center cockpits....Tartan is like Sabre a few steps up both in quality and comfort. My 1983 Sabre 38 is much more boat than the 1999 36CC I used to own, and for a third the money. You may look at an older Tartan/Sabre. Hanse is almost too new to really know. Bavaria is real nice and priced right, but may not have the quality over the years to hold up as well as the others. 


The Hanse, Bavaria, and Beneteau will need considerable add ons to truly be ocean crossers.
All the best.

dave


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Center Cockpit boats built to cross oceans do not include any on your list...though the ones on your list can get you to the Caribe in coastal hops. 
Hylas, Passport, Caliber47, Tayana42/47, KellyPeterson44, Brewer 42/44, Bristol 43/47, Hans Christian Christina are some you might look at. There are also a number of older expensive boats you might look at depending on your budget...Hinckley, Little Harbor, Shannon, HR, Oyster.
EDIT: I should further qualify...Tartan makes an excellent boat but I am not aware of CC's except from the 70's. The current 4400 and 5100 are DEck Salon models and have exposed spade rudders which I am not a fan of for ocean cruising.


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## badadim (Jul 2, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> Center Cockpit boats built to cross oceans do not include any on your list...


What makes a boat built for cross oceans? I mean what exactly is there on your list what is not on mine? Could you list those technological differences for me to understand? Thank you.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

You are going to get a lot of different opinions about what is capable and what is not. I know personally of a Beneteau 370 that crossed the pond, with in mast furling to boot. I would rather do it in a boat twice the weight with a full keel. Your island hopper is not the best for taking across the Atlantic, but then again, your pond crosser will not be very comfortable in the islands. IMHO, if you are going to buy a boat for ocean voyages, get one thats already done it and is outfitted for it, why start from scratch, and why take a 200k Beneteau and spend another 100k to outfit it and get it ready?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

badadim...do a search on bluewater boats here...there are thousands of posts on the subject. The short answer is that they are built to take the constant pounding of the ocean and everything is overbuilt...that is why they cost 2-3 times as much per foot as the production boats you've listed. I've owned a number of production boats and one blue water boat...there is no comparison at sea. You can buy 27' bluewater boats...so it is not a size thing...it is a build quality thing. 
There is NO DOUBT that MANY production boats have crossed oceans. My view is that if adults want to do that understanding the increased risks it is their right. When kids are involved I become a bit more vocal.


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## haffiman37 (Jun 4, 2004)

For 'extencive' oceancrossing and varying conditions the build-up of the boat is essential.
Those You mentioned use in general a 'thin' outer hull and innerliner module.
Unfortunaletly quite some of them end up as 'jelly boats' after some heavy weather when the innerliner starts separating from the hull! And believe that You may avoide 25+ is a dream!
I did my 'trip' in a Jeanneau SO37, and one of the reson a chose that boat was its modern design, but traditional build up. Old type solid hull, full stringers, shrouds attached directly to hull-frames etc. A good 'test' might be to rent a 3-5 year old boat that has been 'out there' and se what it is like after the pounding! I think that might eliminate some of those You have mentioned without me naming them as 'not suitable'.
My 'test report' might give You an idea and some hints.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

To draw an analogy between the boats you list, and automobiles - the type of use that you are planning to put your boat through could be compared to the Paris-Dakar Car Rally. Exciting, tough, rewarding !

While many drivers of automobiles may get very interested in the rally when it is happening, follow it in the news and think to themselves "gee - I'd really like to do that someday", most of them will never do much more than drive to work and maybe drive down to Disneyland with the family once a year.

So the people who enter the rallies, tend to buy tough, well-made cars and then customise them for their intended use. They tend to buy and drive things other than Chevies, Fords, Volkswagens, etc..

The vast majority of drivers though, buy a new car, drive it until they tire of it or it craps out, trade it in and get a new one. They buy the Chevies, Fords, Volkswagens, etc..

Hanse, Bavaria, Beneteau and Tartan are the Fords, Chevies, and Volkswagens of the boating world. You want/need something a little closer to a Landrover, or at least a heavy-duty Subaru...


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

LAND ROVER! I hope you are talking about one of the really old ones that you see in the outback. If you are talking about a new one, his boat will need service by the time he gets out of the marina.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Been a while since I've watched the rally... I guess I'm living in the past... But it's nice here


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## paul77 (Jul 5, 2007)

ahoy badadim,

Sorry for the long winded post, but here goes..

Other than the beneteau, all of those boats are rated ocean class A, which means they are not supposed to fall apart. However as history shows it's usually the crew that gives up before the boat, so you need it to be easy on you as well.

I personally really love the hanse, seriously considering the 400, but mostly for coastal. If you look at the 400 or 430, I think you will find no handholds either above or below decks. So you would need to add things like that.

I didn't see Jeanneau in your list, but if you are considering beneteau it might fit well. Personally, I'm not a Jeanneau fan out of aesthetics and design.

The owner of a local seattle dealer, marine service center, is currently circumnavigating in a Jeanneau 49i. Their blog is here: Ruby Slippers » Rard Family Ocean Adventure

I think that gives you an idea of what is possible with a production cruising boat, I'm sure you could contact MSC direct to see how they outfitted it, or troll through their blog for nuggets. I'd read the wife's posts to try and eliminate any bias the guy might have as a jeanneau dealer 

I know that doesn't help you with center cockpit, I like the concept of center cockpit, but I wouldn't narrow to Beneteau just to get it if I was seriously thinking about crossing oceans. I'd widen the net first.

Check out myhanse.com for hanse information if you haven't already. someone took a Hanse 371 across in the ARC, and I think they won in their class.

I think if you are staying out of the northern lattitudes, center cockpit is less necessary, depends on your cruising goals. Check out the information on mahina.com on cruising boat selection as well.

Best of luck,

paul


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Sailormann said:


> To draw an analogy between the boats you list, and automobiles - the type of use that you are planning to put your boat through could be compared to the Paris-Dakar Car Rally. Exciting, tough, rewarding !
> 
> While many drivers of automobiles may get very interested in the rally when it is happening, follow it in the news and think to themselves "gee - I'd really like to do that someday", most of them will never do much more than drive to work and maybe drive down to Disneyland with the family once a year.
> 
> ...


I would put Tartan in a more blue water capable category than the others, although I know little or nothing about Hanses.


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

If you are dedicated to center cockpits, I would look at Hallberg-Rassy, Sweden and Najad


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## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

HR's and Najad's are in another league than the others, also pricewise. But if you can find a used one in mint condition and with a full inventory you might actually get a better boat for the same price. I just saw a calculation somewhere that you'd have to pay 30-60% EXTRA to go from a "ready-to-sail" boat like the Bavaria/Hanse etc. to a boat equipped for cruising. You'll have a lot to add to any boat you're buying, so the more inventory you can get with it the better. And the cheapest way to get a windvane is to get it with a boat  (I don't have a clue about US prices, so please forgive me if the above does not apply to any of you)


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

Well, Paul77, "Other than the beneteau, all of those boats are rated ocean class A" is simply wrong.

Badadim clearly stated 39 to 45 foot range and a sailboat.
I think all of the Beneteau current cruising models in this range are rated category A. also all of the older models I checked are also rated A.
It does not mean that one can compare them with Hallberg-Rassy, but that is a different price tag.
Did you know there are 41 Beneteaus enrolled to the 2007 ARC?
Some are the bigger models, but quite a few are the Oceanis 393, 411 or 423, which are all in the range discussed.

About center or aft cockpit: For me aft cockpit also have some benefits depending on cruising area.
Swim platform makes dinghy access and swimming so much easier on aft cockpit. Also on a cruising Bene the mainsail traveler is on cabin top so not in the way at all - you can have spray hood (dodger) and bimini installed while sailing and have no problem with sunburns. The aft cockpit is also bigger, so more place for your kids to play. 
If it gets filled by water in bad weather it have a large (more than foot by foot) opening to drain at the end.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just because a boat has an EU RCD classification of "A" or unlimited Ocean... it really doesn't mean that the boat is suitable for making ocean crossings.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Jeeze are we buying Najads now? What a bunch of dreamers!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> I would put Tartan in a more blue water capable category than the others,


I would concur that it's a notch above the others.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Those Bavarias with the keels that fell off a couple of years ago were also rated Ocean Class A.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> Those Bavarias with the keels that fell off a couple of years ago were also rated Ocean Class A.


Yup.. they were... and weren't capable of crossing a mill pond in bad weather.. .


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## paul77 (Jul 5, 2007)

ouch.. should have been a little clearer. I wasn't saying it made the boat suitable, since it may be missing handholds, have poor motion at sea, etc. It does say it meets some standard, I was being maybe a bit too glib about the falling apart part. I don't have enough technical knowledge about boat construction to say whether this standard is sufficient for ocean crossings of the type the OP is looking for.

tomaz -- based on my knowledge for new production beneteaus they are not CE rated. That's from researching beneteaus for purchase, and the say so of the jeanneau/tartan dealer. I googled this and I still think I'm right? 

Not knocking beneteau's, I like them, they manage to take a tonne of abuse in the charter trade in the caribbean and sail just fine. 

One hanse 371 lost a rudder and sank, another had a rudder delaminate, also CE rated. 

Early on when Tartan switched to epoxy construction, I understand the hulls weren't cured at a high enough temperature and so had a tendency to lose their shape. Even the marquee brands can have their problems.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Paul—

If the boats are sold in the EU, they have to have an EU RCD classification on them...


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

Paul, about CE certificates for Beneteau new models: 
On some older documentation you can read something like:
Oceanis 40: CE Certification:A8 / B9 / C10 / D10 in progress
On their web site today it stands: Oceanis 40: CE Certification:A8 / B9 / C10 
So either their WEB is wrong or the process of the certification is finished. When the brochures were sent to print the certifications were still in progress.
Same for Oceanis 43 CE Certification:A10 / B11 / C12), ...and many others.

Does it make them best ocean cruisers ? Of course not.
Will they be comfortable in bad weather? Of course not.
Will some of them loose the rudder? Maybe - but I found lots of "lost rudders and keels" stories - just not one of them being a 39foot or larger Beneteau. With a mass production like they have - this is strange.
Can they cross the ocean? Yes. And 41 of them will do just that this November on ARC, and many have done it in the past.
Beneteau actually is the most participating yard on the Atlantic crossing rally:Most frequently occurring yards are Beneteau, Oyster and Hallberg Rassy
Did people circumnavigate in Beneteaus? Yes.
Did any of you hear of any Beneteau (39 to 45 feet) loosing a keel (other than hard grounding)? Or hull deck delamination ? How many did loose a rudder?
Do I own a Beneteau (which makes me less objective)? Yes.
Do I hate Bavaria for poor quality ? Ohh, Yes. I sailed a lot of them I want no more.
Would I prefer a Hallberg-Rassy ? Sure I would (or Swan), but for same money it would be 35 feet and not 43 feet and 25 - 30 years old and not 5 years old.
There are lots of Beneteaus in charter - and this means 20 or 30 or more weeks of abuse per year. 
I visited a few (after 5 years in charter) - and I was surprised how sound everything still was (structural).
I know that charter does not mean crossing the ocean, but it means that people often do not care to reef on time, they hit stuff, They do not use the anchor snubber (all chain rode), They are often on tight schedule and want to come back to return the boat, so they may go out in bad weather...(even I made 10knots+ in a 32 feet Bavaria in 45 to 50 knots wind as we had to come back several years ago)
Sure some just relax and sunbath, but I have several friends, who can not afford to sail a lot, so when they go - they go in large number on a boat (6 to 8 to a 32 to 40 footer) and they sail like they would never sail again. Bad weather, no problem. Reefing is only for Wimps, Engine RPM - who cares - floor it and go (from cold start). They race each other and hit boats by doing so, hit some rock (why would I look at the chart if you can drink bear....

So, Yes there are better boats on the market. But What is really wrong if someone wants to cross the ocean on a 40 feet Beneteau?


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## badadim (Jul 2, 2007)

Thank you everyone for your replies. It helps a lot!
I also invited Beneteau, Hanse, Bavaria and Tartan officials to speak for their product at this thread.


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## paul77 (Jul 5, 2007)

tomaz - i see now, it's on the french beneteau site, not the US site. I guess this is just something they choose not to advertise to US customers, and shame on my for believing the competing dealer.

There's a fellow circumnavigating in a hunter 49 currently  There are no hunters in the ARC though hunter owners might like saving money, IIRC the ARC entrance fee is not cheap.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> Yup.. they were... and weren't capable of crossing a mill pond in bad weather.. .


some impressions from the mill pond in bad weather  
YouTube - Voyager in cyclone Valentina


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## paul77 (Jul 5, 2007)

sailingdog -- sorry i meant Ocean A rated, as in my first post. Though sounds like Ocean A rated may not mean much, as a new boat consumer it seemed like something to look for.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Nope... Ocean A rating doesn't really say much about the suitability of the boat for making bluewater passages.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

I am deeply saddened that Tartan is even mentioned in the same vicinity as the others


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sure they were... Tartan ranked somewhere down below Bendytoy... 


T37Chef said:


> I am deeply saddened that Tartan is even mentioned in the same vicinity as the others


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## badadim (Jul 2, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> Tartan makes an excellent boat ... The current 4400 and 5100 are DEck Salon models and have exposed spade rudders which I am not a fan of for ocean cruising.


camaraderie,
What is exposed spase rudder and why you are so negative about this? Please explain.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Exposed spade rudders are only held in place and supported by the rudder stock... and are far more vulnerable to impact damage than a skeg hung or keel hung rudder. While some transom hung rudders are almost as vulnerable, they are not as difficult to access if damaged. This is a photo of a spade rudder.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Here is a sample of what a skeg hung rudder looks like:









As you can see, the rudder is supported by both its' internal post and attachments to the built in skeg which is a part of the hull. This skeg also serves as protection from debris and helps catching the rudder on fising lines, crab pots etc. 
While lots of spade rudder boats are out there crossing oceans...I like the extra measure of safety that a skeg hung rudder provides.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cam-

What kind of rudder are you getting on your RV??


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## Pamlicotraveler (Aug 13, 2006)

good illustrations Cam. Common sense seems to show that a spade is just a log away from being knocked off completely. I am sure they are better for racing since the skeg itself creates drag when you turn the rudder and the skeg doesn't turn. But with a spade the rudders are only held on by bearings. Logically it would be much weaker.

I would think if you had a backup steering system, such as a windvane system, the spade would become more of a possibility for a long crossing. At least if you lost it you could still steer the boat.


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)




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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

This is partial skeg (Cam made full skeg)


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)




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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Actually Tomaz...I did not show a partial skeg but your drawing illustrates it well. My own view is that a partial skeg is better than none! All mine were FULL skegs of various designs which extend the full length of the rudder. Probably a language thing. Good work on the art...I think we now have illustrations of everthing that isn't hung off the stern! (G)


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