# Is this Forum FAIR OR SLANTED ?...



## Britsailor (Nov 18, 2006)

I surf these pages fairly regularly, the forums have such a mixture of things going on that they sometimes require indepth reading and thought. The moderators seem to do a resonable job of being neutral and let the sailing community say what ever is on their mind. 

I was reading the thread on the BN sailmaster thing, it was heated and interesting. A little more provocative than, where I was in the Keys stories, or how to peel 15 layers of antifouling off your bottom... Actually I raced back in those days, on a few well know yachts but I was fortunate in that I knew the owners and was invited. The 'boat hand' was some one I came to admire, he knew the yacht up side and down side. Not only did he know the yacht but there was not a manouevr he could not organise or train the newbies how to perform with out mistake... he was the ultimate professional.
I guess had I been younger I would have liked to been in his shoes... Alas I am confined to Yacht charters and sailing my little boat on the Solent.

So the thread with Mr Sailmaster was an interesting discussion.. some how it seemed to get bogged down in that all time problem, what people call people..Never understood that... my parents taught me sticks and stones can break your bones but words can never hurt you.... so weather its ****, wog,******,***,kite,muslim,*******.... name one every one knows them...
what the heck...unless you want to hurt some one and say it to there face they are only words.... no value

Now this is the internet, freedom of speech and all that good stuff... sorry as a brit we can say what we want and to whom....i believe it is the same over there ... unless you are still running under dicator bush... we have Herr Blair.. same thing differnt disgusie.....bottom line is that Mr.camardarie was way out of line... 
1. he expressed his personnel interest in the thread and his opinion, what ever happened to being neutral ???
2. he issued threats to mr sailmaster... banning for his response to another reply....what ever happened to just letting things just go and die a natural death ???
3. and after visiting his web page, it became apparent why....sorry any one who dresses in those yachtie clothes is just not taken seriously around here.. for goodness sakes,,, and after surfing his page discover he is an expert on the the 'ditch' and the east coast run ... come on do some real sailing... trans atlantic ? europe ? OHHH Great Britain ?? ( tides will confuse him)..and he runs this forum... experince and dress says heaps...

So the question is this.... 
Who's opinion matters ? 
the one of a moderator who wants all things nice and comfortable... or the one of the clients who log on here and voice there opinions and questions about life, sailing and the state of the oceans...

Me I'm just a britsailor with no money and a little boat, ,,, no 60 ft ketch with all the works and the nice old money that comes from being born in the right place... what is it that americans call it... WASP.....over here its called LORD... but then they dont seem to have all that attitude and EGO!! 


SO AM I BANNED ??


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Freedom of speech? Yes.
But a little common sence and sensitivity to others will go a long way.



Britsailor said:


> SO AM I BANNED ??


I hope so, but probably not.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

free speech and all that, eh? matey?

well for the same reason you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater and then whine about free speech, is the same reason I agree with Cam... That thread needed to be closed.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

perhpas y'all need to do a little reading on the SCOTUS decision about hollerin "fire" in a theater. it has nothing to do with the words...it has to do with whether the speech has the force of action. by raising the fire alarm you compel another to evacuate the theater. your speech has force of action. a threat of violence is the same case. this is not the case with namecalling or racial epitaphs. it may lack in sensitivity but should not be censored under the guise of unprotected speech. the point is moot as obviously, this forum is not public and is privately operated therefore no one has a constitutional right to air their opinions here. but dont repeatedly misinterpret first amendment restrictions to justify silencing someone you disagree with. just admit you dont like what they have to say and wish they would shut up.

mike


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Free Speech?? I think it is more about showing consideration of others. You can have your opinion, and have a right to voice it, but doing so at the expense of others just makes you an ASS.

I agree with tjk- and paul- in backing Cams decisions and taste.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Having not followed that thread after the first couple of posts, I went back and read what was there. While I'm all for free speech, and abhor political correctness, that doesn't mean I'm not mindful of the use of words and how they can be seen by others. Self-cenorship, if you will. It's also called consideration and respect.

While the basic topic was of interest, the use of what many feel is a pejorative term wasn't necessary for the discussion. It merely made the outcome invetiable. That the moderator had to intercede was to be expected.

Your response to the action taken, which to me, falls under forum guidelines, shows the same sense of bigotry, that you impune to the moderator. (And FYI, a WASP is not a class designation, it simply means white, anglo-saxon, protestant)

A lot has been said recently in these forums, that really have nothing to do with sailing. Probably too much, though I'm guilty of being a part of it. And though the subjects were heated, no warnings were found necessary, because they by and large, were done with some sense of decorum. Tact, decorum, civility, what ever you want to call it, should be a part of any discussion, and I for one, have no problem with the moderators action in ending a thread that had none.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Britsailor,

Unlike some groups of people in Europe, America has little tolerance for people who make derogatory slurs toward other people who may differ in their religeous beliefs, nationality, skin color and in some cases, even social class. In our country, this is called bigotry and racism . . . actually one of the reasons our country's founding fathers escaped England's shores centuries ago.

They may be only words to you, but since most British people I know share our sensitivity, I would assume you are one of the uncultured breed of blokes. Perhaps you even belong to an Aryan white supremist group. If so, please refrain from preaching your Nazi rubbish in these forums.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Britsailor said:


> what is it that americans call it... WASP.....over here its called LORD... :[/QUOTE
> 
> Britsailor,
> You're a wanker on both sides of the pond.
> ...


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Brit, conduct yourself as if you were having tea with the Queen ... curb thy tongue knave ...


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## BADG (Dec 24, 2001)

Cam went overboard based on personal opinion. In my opinion.

To pretend that things weren't what they were in the past is ingnorant, to bury your head in the sand and make the claim that it cannot be talked about is just guilt.

Things were different, times change and if we can't talk about it where does it leave us? If we're too afraid or guilty to talk about our past - yes even that which is truly an embarassment - where does that leave our future?

Bottom line though, this is a private forum owned by a person or company which we do not pay to utilize so if the owning party says no to this then no it is. I do not believe that it is Cam's decision to make even though he obviously has the power to lock a thread. I may be wrong though as I do not truly know how it works behind the curtain.


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## freddy4888 (Nov 16, 2006)

This forum is about sailing, boats, and to help people like myself enjoy our wonderful sport to the fullest. Hopefully in doing so it creates an atmosphere in which people from all different countries, race, background, etc can come together and learn from each other. That thread was going to do the complete opposite, so in my opinion, Cam was 100% correct to end it before it got completely out of control!


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

doctom...

ever been to the third or fifth ward?
I'll wager your argument about "force of action" there wouldn't hold a lot of water.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Always follow the money. If no money is involved then ask what the agenda was. I believe the agenda of the original post was to hide behind free speach to stir up and incite, not to add to this SAILING FORUM. The forum moderator has a duty to and right to moderate this sailing forum for it's intended purpose. No one is squashing anyones freedom of speech, if you have a burning desire to discuss such things then start a board of your own or find one whose agenda matches your own.
pigslo


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

pigslo said:


> if you have a burning desire to discuss such things then start a board of your own or find one whose agenda matches your own.
> pigslo


and call it wanker.net


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## Brezzin (Dec 4, 2006)

This was so obviously a troll thread, Why are all of you feeding the troll?

Please stop feeding the troll.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Britsailor said:


> Now this is the internet, freedom of speech and all that good stuff... sorry as a brit we can say what we want and to whom....i believe it is the same over there ... unless you are still running under dicator bush... we have Herr Blair.. same thing differnt disgusie.....bottom line is that Mr.camardarie was way out of line...
> 1. he expressed his personnel interest in the thread and his opinion, what ever happened to being neutral ???
> 2. he issued threats to mr sailmaster... banning for his response to another reply....what ever happened to just letting things just go and die a natural death ???
> 3. and after visiting his web page, it became apparent why....sorry any one who dresses in those yachtie clothes is just not taken seriously around here.. for goodness sakes,,, and after surfing his page discover he is an expert on the the 'ditch' and the east coast run ... come on do some real sailing... trans atlantic ? europe ? OHHH Great Britain ?? ( tides will confuse him)..and he runs this forum... experince and dress says heaps...
> ...


Since I seem to be the primary subject of the post above I will respond.
First...I will say that the referenced thread was closed due to the tenor of the conversation not the content. I stated my own opinion on the subject but the subjuct was NOT why the conversation was closed. Had I wished to simply enforce my own opinion, I could simply have deleted the thread. I left it in place so others of diverse opinions could read it and make up their own minds AND so that people with the SAME mindset as me would not have a WIN over those with different opinions simply by becoming un-civil.

Second...A few months ago I was just one of the gang here and was invited to be the moderator as it was the sense of the administrator of the site that SPAM needed more frequent tending and conversations were getting out of hand and were not in keeping with the purpose of the site and needed occasional intervention. They felt that my judgement was decent for the purpose and I made it clear they could overide any decision I took without offence. So far...I've made a couple of warnings...banned ONE person and stopped ONE thread. Not bad for 6 months or so I think...and a large measure of that is due to the quality of people we have on board here that value the civility even in raging arguments.

Third...I receive NO compensation for my role and am not an employee of SailNet. I have NO obligation to be neutral on any topic. This is a private, commercial site and there is NO RIGHT to free speech for anyone. There is a PRIVILEGE to enjoy the site and post here and learn as well. Of course if the conversation is stifled due to the "rules" then people will go elsewhere and the enterprise will suffer. It it my role to help keep a happy balance which of course means some will be un-happy.

Fourth...as to the personal attacks on my dress, lifestyle and sailing experience. I don't know what picture on my website "Brit" found...but I do admit to presently owning one sport jacket, one tie (black), one pair of dress shoes and one pair of dress socks. All of the above were purchased beore the year 2000. I guess that makes me a "yachtie". My experience is quite limited as I've only done bay and sound sailing for about 30 years and then for the last 6 put on about 20,000 miles in the ICW, offshore along the East Coast of the US, through the Bahamas chain and down through the Carribbean to Grenada while outfitting 2 boats for long term cruising while living board full time with no land based home having sold my house to by my boat. I was able to do this after 30 years of working over 60 hours a week and putting 3 kids through college and retiring at age 52. It is true I have never crossed an ocean and there ARE others here with vastly more experience in that regard. I also have never raced and know little about that subject. Nevertheless I do think my experience is more than 95% of other sailors will have and I take my hat off the the other 5% for their accomplishments.

I appreciate the personal support on this thread and via PM's that others have made regarding my decision to halt the BN thread. My suspicion is that "Brit" is a troll looking to stir the pot up but since this is the first thread I've stopped, I thought it would be helpful to respond so everyone understands my reasons (even if you don't agree with them<g>) and the nature of my role here. Thanks.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

cardiacpaul...your statement is racist. you assume my race and you insinuate that a certain class of people are unlawful.

sorry that i wasted both of our time trying to help you from misunderstanding the protections gauranteed b our bill of rights.

mike


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

One thing I have found about forums like this is that (as frustrating as it may be, sometimes) you have to play by the forum owner's rules. Look at it as if you were a guest at someone else's home. If what you were discussing got too racy or heated for the homeowner's taste, he could ask you to change the subject or even leave his house. Same deal here. Of course we're all for free speech, but this isn't a street corner where you can shout whatever you like, as loud as you like.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Have I mentioned what a nice day it was Sunday... Beautiful yesterday too... Catalina makes a better yacht than Hylas... I am uncertain which anchor to choose, can someone help? SHould I crimp or solder??

Thank you everyone in advance for all of your help as I know nothing about sailing or cruising...

- CD


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Cam, ya don't owe anybody an apology here for locking that thread.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Cam,
Bravo! And I agree with Cobra that you owe no one an apology. Keep up the great work you are doing.
Tom shannon


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## orthomartin (Oct 21, 2006)

*give him a break*

Britsailor is clearly a huge liberal. Give him a break as they live in their own "special world"


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## Britsailor (Nov 18, 2006)

all comments and opinions noted....


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

*The Bastards of the party*

Nice one CD! You slipped it right in there!  
I stayed out of the original post and voicing my opinion. Personally, I thought it would have disappeared much sooner. I live in the Bay area. One of the most diverse and (sometimes) progressive places in the world. So, I tend not to put up with bigotry, racism, slander, whatever you want to call it. I like people to be people. The uneducated usually throw the first stone. Has anyone watched "The Bastards of the Party"? (HBO) There was a comment by the narrator, a former "blood" gang member. To paraphrase, he said that its much harder to kill each other when we call each other "brother" instead of "n_____". 
I am a "***", a "guinee", the word is so old, I can't even spell it! But thats the point, the conflict with my heritage is over, way over, so it doesn't offend me. But Black people in America are still in the midst of their conflict. Its still a hot topic and a volitile word, and the more you use it, the more you feed the fire. You are entitled to your opinion, freedom of speech, slander, but remember, how would you feel if you were on the other end. Respect?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Have I mentioned what a nice day it was Sunday... Beautiful yesterday too... Catalina makes a better yacht than Hylas... I am uncertain which anchor to choose, can someone help? SHould I crimp or solder??
> 
> Thank you everyone in advance for all of your help as I know nothing about sailing or cruising...
> 
> - CD


Someone has been sniffing the paint thinner again...


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

I think CD was very subtley, and I mean *very* subtley making the point that we have plenty to fight about on this board. 
pigslo


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Geez Pigslo.. I can't be sarcastic for just a minute... There are plenty of things to disagree about on a sailing forum... Mono vs. Multi, fin vs full keel... etc..


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Or could it be that maybe we need to stick with issues related to Sailing.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Is it OK for me to hate the French and their wine (and whine) and stating my hate for them here???


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Sorry, SD it is just so out of character for you to be sarcastic. Don't forget aft cockpit/centercockpit, sloop/ketch, blonde/brunnette. But the all time winner to start a fight..... goes to..... may I have the envelope please. "Can I take a -------- offshore?"
pigslo


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Is it OK for me to hate the French...


No, it is most certainly not OK. But to take the bite from that rebuke, take a look at Soldier of Surrender for me 
I've also seen a french company on a survival course - and they actually had a CHEF along.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

I've heard lots of racist things said against Catalinas. Some of you guys might as well be wearing bed sheets. But in the lyrics of the great ***** spirituals, "We shall overcome, we shall overcome..."


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Zan...too funny.....

OK, what about.... hate French with hoses??? is that OK????


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Should I crimp or solder??


It strikes me that "Crimp or Solder" would make a far more memorable boat name than the endless "Why Knots" and "Sea Notes" and "Windborns" and "The Other Womans" you generally see at every yacht club known to man.

No offense to anyone with those boat names, naturally!


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Giulietta, why would you hate a French Ho? Aren't they the best kind?
pigslo


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

pigslo said:


> Giulietta, why would you hate a French Ho? Aren't they the best kind?
> pigslo


Friend Pigs

?????????????????????????? didn't understand..... please explain...

But if its French...I'll hate it....


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

G, French Ho?
Does this help, French Hooker? French Whore?
Sorry, I know its a family site.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Ho is slang for prostitute and therefore Hose would be plural for many prostitutes.
pigslo


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailortjk1 said:


> G, French Ho?
> Does this help, French Hooker? French Whore?
> Sorry, I know its a family site.


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh....stupid me....off course...I allways heard that word and never knew what it was a Ho...OK thanks...

Nahhh....they have hairy legs, and hairy armpits  ....French and German women don't shave as Southwestern women do....    And they don't bathe either....while their man love water hoses......  

By the way...what does PHAT mean???


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Pretty Hot and Tempting.
(I had to ask a co-worker, she's PHAT)


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I love this site...one can get a lot of usefull information here....from sailing to real life...

Thanks both....


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I love it too.
Isn't it amazing, we go from Political Correctness to French Whores in about two hours. Thanks Sailnet.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

*Hijacked Thread*

How about hijacking this thread for something that helps people?

Want to know what I did this weekend?? Installed 4 new 4-D's (AGM, Lifelines), new fuses, Prosine inverter/charger, etc.

This bank is an independent, wired in parallel, main house bank. It is one of two, with the second bank (small bank) installed seperately and completely isolated (including charging system) from the main bank. Either bank can start the main engine or generator, work in conjunction with each other or seperate from each other. Both banks are AGM's. Bank 1 is about 840 AH. Bank 2 around 100 or so. Bank 2 is emergency only, but fully monitored (even though it is isloated).

The Inverter/charger is the Xantrex Prosine 2.0. It installs easy, but requires 4/0, 250 mcm, or 350 mcm cable and cooresponding lugs. I used 4/0 because my run was short and I would not use be using the inverter at its full surge capacity (with a microwave or hair dryer being our biggest load).

The install is not fully complete yet, as I have to do some chafe protection and wrap the lugs so they cannot come off, but here are some basic picks.

Here is Battery 1&2. They fit exactly where the old wet cells come out. I will tell you that the batteries (lifeline AGM versus "Interstate" wets) are about twice as heavy (at least they feel that way). It takes a solid 2 men to move them without throwing out your back.










Here is battery 3&4. They were mounted at the lowest spot on the boat and required a bit of glassing in and bracing. A positive of using AGM versus Wets was the lack of real maintenance on the AGM's. THe location of these makes them difficult to access regularly - though they are accessible. As many of you may know, I despise wet cells and think they are a dinosaur (though Rolls are good). Still I wonder if one day they won't all dissapear as there are too many positives with an agm. So, here is the pic of the batts 3&4:



















The system is fused. I made the fuse very accessible. I used 300 amps.










Here is the control panel and the inverter installed:



















At this point, I would highly reccomend the Xantrex. The system is very "smart" and keeps a good eye on your load. The switch over between inverter and shore power is seamless (we don't even lose the time on the microwave clock). THere are many other cool features about the product if you have the time, money, and inclination to install it.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Nice pictures, better install. But were you wearing boat shoes ......


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Looks impressive, but.........heavy. who cares, right??

Your electrical installation makes me feel depressed....

I have a 70amp for the engine, another 70amp for house, a 25amp for the VHF, and a 55amp for the removable anchor winch....I guess I have battery defficiency sindrome... all (except the 25 amp) can be removed when needed.

I use cheap car batteries, that I replace very 2 years.

Did you install them on the lowest place on the boat? That's good.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

So you saw my number 9 in there, did you??? Yep. Photography was not my strong point. Of course, if it is summer or even anywhere close to summer, I don't wear ANY shoes... so consider yourself lucky as not having to look at my hairy toes!!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Giu,

Yes, very heavy. Low in the boat for stability. Asfar as the weight though, you know me, I don't care!!! As long as my beer stays colder longer!!!! (smile)

Batteries alone, without cabeling, glass, or anything else is close to 500 lbs I would guess. The first battery weighed about 50 pounds, the second about 100. THe third, after blowing my gut, weighed about 300 lbs. The fourth was like lifting a VW with one hand!!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

CD...

here ya go......THE CURE FOR CD'S HAIRY TOE


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Giu,

Thank you for watching out for my personal hygene. But I don't shave my legs and I ain't shaving my toes either!!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

CruisingDad, don't start shaving your toes. You might get carried away and we would have to start calling you, "Brittany"!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Who said anything about shaving your legs...you French you!!!!!   

By the way...I think if I had 500lbs (thats 250kg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) inside my boat it would sink...  


This is actually funny, you can add weight real easy, but just reverse your thing.....just think how much time, thinking, work and $$$$$$ I would have to spend to reduce the weight of my boat by half of that...just 250lbs would make me sooooo happy...

Think on my side of the coin, just for once....(that's a challenge...and I like it...  ), but think what you would have to do to remove the weight....in my case, of course...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Lighten Ship!*

Giu:
Well, first I would get a really big SAW!--but you probably wanted it to remain afloat--oh well!


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

*Thanks "DAD"!*

Leave it to a "Dad" to ruin a perfectly good post!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Well, you can cut the handles off of your toothbrush. That will help. It's a start, right!! On a serious note, I would have to think long and hard... but it is a very difficult transition for me. I am so focused on making the boat self-sufficent long term and off the grid, it is hard fo rme to think about how to make it go fast and lighten it up. I can only imagine you have the same thoughts when you see some Yahoo dropping 500+ pounds of batteries in his boat... and that isn't even all the batts or cabeling or anything!! I will bet you sit there shaking your head and thinking, "MAN THAT IS GOING TO SLOW HIM DOWN!!"

All I can tell you is think the follwing word over and over in your mind:

FORMOSA! 

Have a little Marley playing in the background. The kids are singing along (yes, they really do know the words). A martini or Margarita in your left hand. The sun is setting off the bow. THe sail is flapping but who gives a crap. That is my world, Baby. That is my heaven, and it is hard for me to imagine any other. Now smile, because THAT is what it is all about!!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

GilHuguley said:


> Giu:
> Well, first I would get a really big SAW!--but you probably wanted it to remain afloat--oh well!


Believe me I already cut all that I could cut, without affecting structural integrity!!

Its just almost impossible....its really difficult. And yes, it needs to float to sail.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Pseudonyms are a mixed blessing on the internet, allowing interchange unprejudiced by age, gender, $$, race, politics etc being apparent (well sometimes). They can also allow some licence to show sides of themselves they might otherwise not.
Whatever the subject very often someone with real specialist knowledge will pop up.
I find it pays to make no assumptions - sexy_legs may well be male, or the photo 20 years old. Hmm so with bridge I play bridge and don't look for "dates".
Who would have thought Cam was goodlooking, young and not necessarily super rich?


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

It sounds like a beautiful world, CD. I hope to be there in a few years myself.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

bestfriend said:


> It sounds like a beautiful world, CD. I hope to be there in a few years myself.


Where????? putting 500ls of lead in your boat????


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

G- Better be careful, the fastest way to lighten your boat quickly is for Fred to leave you on the dock!!!


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

NO! The drinks and the sun and the breeze with sails flapping, kids jumping of the boat into the warm water....aahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Well, you can cut the handles off of your toothbrush. That will help. It's a start, right!! On a serious note, I would have to think long and hard... but it is a very difficult transition for me. I am so focused on making the boat self-sufficent long term and off the grid, it is hard fo rme to think about how to make it go fast and lighten it up. I can only imagine you have the same thoughts when you see some Yahoo dropping 500+ pounds of batteries in his boat... and that isn't even all the batts or cabeling or anything!! I will bet you sit there shaking your head and thinking, "MAN THAT IS GOING TO SLOW HIM DOWN!!"
> 
> All I can tell you is think the follwing word over and over in your mind:
> 
> ...


CD, I am sure, the day will arrive, later, much later....when my choices will change...please note I am not criticising you for doing that..I understand your needs, as you know...I was just showing you that my choice (for now) is exactly the opposite, and the fact that my chalenge is 1000 harder than yours!!!! Getting it lighter and stiffer..

One of the reasons it is harder is that I still have to provide (2 months a year) the calm cruising with the family and the margarittas thing...and the boat can be easily modified for that. When we cruised 2 months last year, the water line on my boat went down almost 3 inches with all the stuff we had inside for cruising.

I noted that amps was a little TOO LOW for cruising. So next year, when we do our 2 month cruise in southern Portugal, I will bring 2 more 70amp batteries, so I don't need to start the diesel so often to recharge....but in my case...all solutions have to be "removable".


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

T34C said:


> G- Better be careful, the fastest way to lighten your boat quickly is for Fred to leave you on the dock!!!


Fred is highly "unqualified" (yet) to handle her on his own   ....for your info, I am not heavy...handsome...but not heavy....


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Giu,

Never considered criticizing. You never offend me, you know that. 

I was just trying to say that it is SOOOO hard for me to imagine your world. It has to be difficult. The thought you put into that boat is amazing!! As far as coming around one day to the "Slow" cruising life... hey, whatever makes you happy. That was my point too. You are passionate about racing. That is awesome! I am passionate about cruising. We both get the same place, you just get there before me!!

- CD


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

bestfriend said:


> NO! The drinks and the sun and the breeze with sails flapping, kids jumping of the boat into the warm water....aahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


Somehow we got the impression that I can't flap my sails, drink margarittas and have kids jumping of the boat...I do all that (2 months a year)...I do...I just "mutate" the boat to do it..


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Bestfriend,

Thank ya. This thread may not have started well, but there are enough of us here that we can make it end well!!!

- CD


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Fred is highly "unqualified" (yet) to handle her on his own   ....for your info, I am not heavy...handsome...but not heavy....


Oh boy I heard that your penis size decreases by the same amount that your water line gets higher.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

HAHAAHAHHHAHAHAH!!!!

Funny Giu. Mutate the boat. That one made me laugh.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Giulietta, Fred is handsome, your wife is beautiful, and the boat is ..., but we have seen your photo.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

bestfriend said:


> Oh boy I heard that your penis size decreases by the same amount that your water line gets higher.


OHHHH My!!!! Jaysus, Mary, and Joseph, the Saints and Our Lady Of Fatima!!!!!!!! (All together at least 4 times)........

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.....last time I checked my boat is now so light that the water line is almost 3 inches lower....does that mean I can stop clicking on that email that tells me "CLICK HERE TO MAKE YOUR PENIS LARGER" ????????

I knew that would work......now.....off... with the tables, the Stove, the GPS...I am sure my penis can grow another 1 inch.......


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Hahahahahhhahhahahahahahah! Yes! I must get out to my boat and start chucking things overboard! Its gonna look like a T10 inside, but man I'll be hung. The wife will be happy one way or the other.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

CD - nice install, I hope they keep all these threads for future reference and those of us planning to do the same.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

chris_gee said:


> Giulietta, Fred is handsome, your wife is beautiful, and the boat is ..., but we have seen your photo.


Don't know what you mean......are you sure it was me?? this is me here bellow....a handsome man as you can see......










Man I look like CD's battery 10,300,499.599 Gazzillionn Amps installation....powerfull.....


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hey Giulietta- 

That photo is an improvement over the ones you normally post...  

CD- 

I hate to criticize, but your VHF looked like it wasn't working...why aren't you monitoring Ch. 16... as required by law..


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

Camardarie,
I don’t disagree with your right to do what you did but I am a big believer in free speech and responsibility. If someone doesn’t like a thread they don’t need to join in or they can state there opinion and move on. Their disapproval should not be a reason for killing the thread. A lot of ideas are out there both good and bad and you and I will not agree with all of them but it’s worth knowing they exist. Read everything but believe only what you want and besides, education kills bad ideas not censorship.

A troll is somewhat of a new concept for me. I don’t understand why they do it but so what. Why give them the time of day. Answering a troll uses a lot of bandwidth and doesn’t advance the cause at all. Ignore them and let’s discuss all things boats.
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Oh my Gawd, I started off reading this thread shaking my head, thinking Cam did the right thing, skipped 6 pages and now I'm laughing my a$$ off because it's turned into a how to Wiener size your boat .......LOL

Oh man, gotta love this place


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

poopdeckpappy said:


> how to Wiener size your boat .......LOL


What is Wiener???


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Please, if you are going to use a photo of him, use a mask!


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

G- I'm really sorry. I must have had you confused with someone else. I thought you had less hair than that.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

T34C said:


> G- I'm really sorry. I must have had you confused with someone else. I thought you had less hair than that.


T...maybe the angle threw you off...here's me with my hair....


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

No wonder your boat is sooo heavy when you have a fur cabin sole!!! (Or was that one of those French hose I was hearing about???)


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> OHHHH My!!!! Jaysus, Mary, and Joseph, the Saints and Our Lady Of Fatima!!!!!!!! (All together at least 4 times)........
> 
> THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.....last time I checked my boat is now so light that the water line is almost 3 inches lower....does that mean I can stop clicking on that email that tells me "CLICK HERE TO MAKE YOUR PENIS LARGER" ????????
> 
> I knew that would work......now.....off... with the tables, the Stove, the GPS...I am sure my penis can grow another 1 inch.......


Dear My Bluebottle,

Please be careful. I have accidentally hit on the "click here to make your tits grow". I can guarantee the results but they were not quite what I expected. Nonetheless they are a fine pair. BTW now that you have two inches.......

Your Friend

Confused of Sydney


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

*Serious note*

Hey guys, one of our Fireboat Captains just died of a heart attack. Kevin Devine. He was a great man, and a fellow lover of the sea. Do me a favor.Please, for those of you on your boats, offer up a toast to him and the sea, wish him well on the Ocean afterlife. He will be missed. Thank you, now back to the shinanigans.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

tdw said:


> Dear My Bluebottle,
> 
> Please be careful. I have accidentally hit on the "click here to make your tits grow". I can guarantee the results but they were not quite what I expected. Nonetheless they are a fine pair. BTW now that you have two inches.......
> 
> ...


Hey you UPSIDEDOWN FRUITCAKE......  

I was doing some research here and found that picture you sent me 2 days ago, from that parade you went, after you clicked on that thing....


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Hey, make sure to check out Sailingdog's portrait over on the "dogs life" thread. Its a good likeness.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

The fastest way for G to cut 600 lbs of weight is to not take his 2 aunties sailing!
pigslo


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Britsailor said:


> I surf these pages fairly regularly, the forums have such a mixture of things going on that they sometimes require indepth reading and thought. The moderators seem to do a resonable job of being neutral and let the sailing community say what ever is on their mind.
> 
> I was reading the thread on the BN sailmaster thing, it was heated and interesting. A little more provocative than, where I was in the Keys stories, or how to peel 15 layers of antifouling off your bottom... Actually I raced back in those days, on a few well know yachts but I was fortunate in that I knew the owners and was invited. The 'boat hand' was some one I came to admire, he knew the yacht up side and down side. Not only did he know the yacht but there was not a manouevr he could not organise or train the newbies how to perform with out mistake... he was the ultimate professional.
> I guess had I been younger I would have liked to been in his shoes... Alas I am confined to Yacht charters and sailing my little boat on the Solent.
> ...


Guy, you are really stirring it up and I'm not sure for what purpose. I, for one, think a curbing of racial slurs makes this a much more pleasant place to be.

And by the way, your fondness for elipses reminds me of someone else. Who could it be?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

pigslo said:


> The fastest way for G to cut 600 lbs of weight is to not take his 2 aunties sailing!
> pigslo


And they surely don't qualify as making a boat prettier.. losing them as boat bunnies would definitely improve the performance and looks of any boat.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Hey you UPSIDEDOWN FRUITCAKE......
> 
> I was doing some research here and found that picture you sent me 2 days ago, from that parade you went, after you clicked on that thing....


You have to admit I was born to wear a tutu !! (but I had to grow into the corset.)


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

pigslo said:


> The fastest way for G to cut 600 lbs of weight is to not take his 2 aunties sailing!
> pigslo


Pigs....C'mon that's not fare......they're "built for confort...not for speed"....inside they have a lovely heart....all 8 of them....



















By the way....how you doing with Aunt Jamila??? How was the Honey Moon??? 

We miss her.....


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Oh god, I think I am going to be sick.....


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Oh my God this is getting sick. There should be a discalimer before seeing one of Giu's pictures... kinda like: Look at your own risk, and No one under 75 allowed.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Bestfriend, 

We posted the same thing at the same time!!!! Great minds..


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Try a search on sailnet on "motion seackness" or "sea sickness"  

Some people swear on those wrist bands..I think they don't work...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Oh my God this is getting sick. There should be a discalimer before seeing one of Giu's pictures... kinda like: Look at your own risk, and No one under 75 allowed.


Right...so...first we lost the "right of speech" on a private net page...now we're loosing the "right of posting pretty ladies"?????

I will keep on posting photos of my aunts for Pigslo until Cam bans me....period....and the day he bans me....I will post a full size photo of him dressed up as ...................


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

I need a wristband for my eyes, aaaa, MY EYES, MY EYES!  
CD, did you post something to me, I can't read, MY EYES!


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

I'd recommed duct tape for your wrist, but staples may be needed for your eyes.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Sorry BF, you say something. I just got back from the bathroom. Made a mess all over the place when I saw Giu's pictures.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

bestfriend said:


> I need a wristband for my eyes, aaaa, MY EYES, MY EYES!
> CD, did you post something to me, I can't read, MY EYES!


Look....make up your mind, ok???

Are you sick or blind????? How can I recommend something to you if you keep changing your mind???


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> Fourth...as to the personal attacks on my dress, lifestyle and sailing experience. I don't know what picture on my website "Brit" found...but I do admit to presently owning one sport jacket, one tie (black), one pair of dress shoes and one pair of dress socks. .


Cam,

All jokes aside mate this is getting bloody serious. Enquiring minds need to know....What colour is the jacket ? Colour co-ordination is everything. Refer to Gui's pic of me at the Mardi Gras. Good fashion sense is an acquired talent, one should never let the side down.

As to other items in your wardrobe I notice a distinct lack of polos with turned up collars. Get you act together son. Everybody knows that all true yachtsman wear polos with turned up collars, non conformity is absolutely frowned on and will be exorcised.

I know the above may cut you to the bone and I'm sorry for any personal hurt you are feeling right now but there are some issues too important to let lie.   

Your friend

TD


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

TDW,

Don't forget the matching socks pulled up to your knees. What is the matter with you? How could you miss that important point?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> ...but I do admit to presently owning one sport jacket, one tie (black), one pair of dress shoes and one pair of dress socks. All of the above were purchased beore the year 2000.


Soooooo, Mr. Cam...one can understand from your post above that you have no pants, underwear and shirt......riiiiiiight...one photo of Cam in a Sport jacket, with tie, dress shoes and sock coming up


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Lets have dress code for this forum:


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

No, wait, this one:








Judging by the frown on Cam's face I would say this is after the ring incident.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Like I said earlier: THis thread may have started off bad, but it does not have to end that way!!

WHew... unless Giu posts another picture.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

*EXTRA EXTRA EXTRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CAM'S WARDROBE REVEALED!!!!

EXTRA EXTRA EXTRA!!!!!!!!!!!*​Here's a photo of Cam in his favorite sailing jacket......










and his favorite foul weather clothes......


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Ban him Cam. Ban him!!!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well I have just taken two hours to read this thread... what happen to the Brit? 
This did have a nice ending...or is ended? My gut hurts from laughing. Nice end to a work day. Catch ya latter..
John


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Don't go now! Have I really wasted two hours on this thing? Well, its raining hard here anyway. 
Cam - CD is right, this may be the only chance we get to catch Giu insulting someone, so ban him now while we have the chance! (you know I joke Giu)


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

My personal view is that such discussions should be held over at fight club where bare knuckles seems to be the mode of discussion. Whether Cam was right or wrong, and my opinion on it, is not really germaine; I'm not Cam, and not burdened with his responsibilities.

I have found that lack of civility is the quickest way to kill a thread, valid thread or invalid. Interjecting personal attacks and hurtful sarcasm do nothing to advance the quest for knowledge. Those could perhaps be best left to fight club, as in; "meet me over at fight club" substituting for "you wanna step outside?". More often than should happen, a newbie is insulted and disappears without getting his question really answered. If we all know it all there is little purpose for the forum in the first place.

I would suggest that, if you wish to post "sailaway you're an ass and full of crap" you make a note referring me to such a post on fight club and then proceed with your well reasoned and thoughtful explanation of why what I have posted is lubberly. This will allow me to respond to your unenlightened view of my perfectly reasonable opinion <g> and continue the thread towards enlightenment for all. I can then choose, or not choose, to respond to your personal attack on fight club. Very often there are opinions that are not perfectly expressed and it takes some time in the thread to sort out exactly what was meant. The personal attacks tend to short-circuit the thread before that happens.

This forum does not lend itself well to the thin-skinned. Attempts to impose political correctness, i believe, should be resisted. If offense is given, a quick apology should be the order of the day, but too quick a trigger on the "offense" button merely diverts us all into a meaningless battle. I, for one, refer to another member as a Portagee. If he took offense to that I am sure he would PM me and the practise would stop immediately. What would be uncalled for is some self-righteous no-nothing jumping in to call me a racist all the while knowing nothing of the relationship I have with that fine gentleman. If someone is offended, a PM or a diversion to fight club would seem to be the more reasonable approach.

Much more is revealed about a member's character by the tenor of their posts than by the actual content of said posts. There are members that I would love to spend an evening talking with and others I would not cross the street to greet. Usually the difference has little to do with their sailing opinions, but rather the way in which those opinions are expressed.

Now to the thread in question. I thought the original post, with the term abbreviated, was a reasonable approach and Robert Ganier's subtle suggestion of a different term was an improvement on that as well. As a matter of history the term is out-dated and implies an uncouthness in the user who continues to employ it. Whether or not it implies more than that I cannot say; only God is familiar with the hearts of unknown men. A gentle "Ahem" should be sufficient to remedy the situation. Flying off the handle with the verbal equivalent of shooting the Archduke Francis Ferdinand is not the answer. If the member in question is, in fact, a racist that fact will soon reveal itself and a quiet shunning will do more to eliminate him, or at least refine his behavior than anything else. Mounting the ramparts to refight the Civil War is mere puffery designed to only enhance the member's own personal self-image. I suspect that most of those who went off on the topic did not bother to post a PM to the effect that they were offended, prefering the public forum. Puffery.

If I have offended anyone in the past, I hereby offer my unconditional apology for doing so. On issues, I have strong opinions. On persons, I try to be mindful that I cannot know them as I might if they lived next door. I try to treat them, with greater or lesser success, as if they did live next door. I'd hate to think that their first reaction upon meeting me would be a punch in the snout. Mind you, I do relish the give and take of the site and have to be conscious of not crossing the ethereal line. That being said, this is a sea-going site and a certain amount of salty flavor should be expected (and PC does not live in salt water). It's Cam's job to keep the salinity down to a heavy spray and prevent the shipping of green seas. I think he's steering fine in a confused sea and should not be relieved until we drop the harbor pilot.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Well spoken, Sailaway.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> I, for one, refer to another member as a Portagee. If he took offense to that I am sure he would PM me and the practise would stop immediately. .


Sailaway...you're an ass and full of crap.....meet you in the "fight club" for some ass kicking......


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I WAS hoping he was in bed sound asleep.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Actually, I think what would be better is to have an Off Topic Forum, for non-sailing posts. I think this would benefit those who want to talk off topic, as well as not clutter up the regular forums with off topic subjects. In my time on this board, I've seen it almost go under when religion became a hot topic, and of late, it seems most of the posts are off topic. Granted, I've been a part of it, but I can't help but feel it's getting a bit out of hand.

It's not that I feel there isn't room for off topic subjects, or that people shouldn't bring them up. I just think we need a better venue than the regular sailing forums.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

I get the gist of your post, but sometimes it works out PB. For example over on the "things overboard" thread the topic diverted to where to get 12v coffee makers, useful info. Maybe its just been a slow news days lately. I like that we can switch back and forth, and that I am a rookie and have been welcomed here.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

PB,

I think that albeit the joking...when needed, the sail info and related sail stuff is still here....just ask for a sail relalted question...you'll get your answer (given that some answers here, are true jokes)....don't you??

Now on the other hand the joking makes the site much enjoyable, fun and friendly..I remember in October...where most posts ended up in assault and aggravvation...now only a few do...joking is good....

The problem is knowing when to joke and when not to joke...The case on this thread....started as a serious subject..that diverted, (for everyone's benefit) into a good fun thread....


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

Where is the no-vowel slime remover when you need him?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

tigerregis said:


> Where is the no-vowel slime remover when you need him?


Please please explain....


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

It's not that there is a lack of sailing topics, and I agree, far better to joke and kid than slice and dice. I'd much rather have a more social forum than one that is all academic and dry. It just seems like, to my perspective, that a seperate forum for joking and kidding posts and/or more serious issues, would better serve the community. So, I'm not talking about doing away with them, or even being less friendly, just giving them their own space. Guiletta for Sale was fun, for instance (just to name one), but that was a social post, not a sailing post. That's why I think it would be good to have a seperate forum. I'm not suggesting that anyone has to "toe the line, or walk the plank", just that things have their proper place. And I think it would be good to have a "social" type forum.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

PB, I dunno, ya kinda lose the spontaneity ya think?


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Just to clarify, you are suggesting separate threads, or forums, for serious and not so serious?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

CEB...

Exactly what I was going to say...besidesd I don't think it would work...

when its serious and I kow I can help, I reply seriously, as you know, and as I have done often

However, sometimes...I can't resist...sorry but I can't....get me triggered....and I loose it...I'm a happy fella, I guess....ban me....


On the other hand, have you read some of the "serious" answers we read here??? like the stepped deck masts?? The sail trim, hull shape..etc...some of those are real fun commedy....what can I say????


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Sailaway- Well put. I might offer up that the PM to someone being a jerk may be nice, but if you act the jerk in public then any scorn you receive in public is just.

PB- Point well taken, but we are in a "General Discussion" Forum. Right???

To anyone I may have offended- I'm very sorry it was not intensional, unless you deserved it, in which case "...you're an ass and full of crap.....meet you in the "fight club" for some ass kicking......" (let me know how it works out.)


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

T34C said:


> To anyone I may have offended- I'm very sorry it was not intensional, unless you deserved it, in which case "...you're an ass and full of crap.....meet you in the "fight club" for some ass kicking......" (let me know how it works out.)


My feelings were hurt a while back when you made some derogatory comments about Catalinas. I remember crying myself to sleep one night...


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Sailhog- That one would definatly fall under the Unintensional heading. Terribly sorry my good man. 
Wait a minute... I never made any derogatory comments about Catalinas (that I can remember) jokes maybe, but no derogatory comments.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

No, I think you misunderstand me. Just a seperate forum for posts that aren't really "sailing" posts. Be they serious, like the "Interesting" thread, or funny, like the "Guiletta for Sale" thread.

I don't have any problem with what is being discussed, I just feel that a "Social" or "Off Topic" forum would be a better place for some of them.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

T...your'e an ass and full of crap...where did you get the idea I had no hair???


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Well my tears were real. When my wife saw me crying -- god, this is painful to recall -- she said, "Are you crying, you pathetic piece of shi*?"


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> T...your'e an ass and full of crap...where did you get the idea I had no hair???


G- From the picture(s) that showed your head!!!!!!!!  ...you're an ass and full of crap.....go look in the mirror!!!!


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Awwwww, come here sailhog, lets have a group hug.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

I thought you two were in Fight Club. Have you smashed through the front window out into the street now?


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

sailhog said:


> Well my tears were real. When my wife saw me crying -- god, this is painful to recall -- she said, "Are you crying, you pathetic piece of shi*?"


LOL... No really I'm laughing WITH YOU.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailhog said:


> Well my tears were real. When my wife saw me crying -- god, this is painful to recall -- she said, "Are you crying, you pathetic piece of shi*?"


that was funny...see T???? Catalina owners CAN be funny, too....  

Not all lost their humour!!


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

bestfriend said:


> I thought you two were in Fight Club. Have you smashed through the front window out into the street now?


My mother warned me not to hangout in places like that! Thats why I threw in the "let me know how it works out" clause.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

T34C said:


> G- From the picture(s) that showed your head!!!!!!!!  ...you're an ass and full of crap.....go look in the mirror!!!!


Hey T you're a crap full of ass...too


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> that was funny...see T???? Catalina owners CAN be funny, too....
> 
> Not all lost their humour!!


G- They have to have a sense of humor.... (Oh sh*& did I say that out loud???) Remember Sailaway said you have to PM !!!!


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

bestfriend said:


> Awwwww, come here sailhog, lets have a group hug.


I think it's the only affection I'm going to be seeing for a while. She was really disgusted with me...


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Not that anybody gives a ****, but it just hailed here in SF. and you're all full of crap.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

bestfriend- Thats the oddest cockpit seating I've seen in awhile. You might consider rerouting that wire.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

bestfriend said:


> Not that anybody gives a ****, but it just hailed here in SF. and you're all full of crap.


Yes...it's the global warming....it cools everything  

hey T....where do you see no hair????? no brains...maybe....but no hair?????


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

T34C said:


> bestfriend- Thats the oddest cockpit seating I've seen in awhile. You might consider rerouting that wire.


Bestfriend you lied to us....you said you had a CS, but you have a Chinese red junk!!!!


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Thats not a forehead, thats a fivehead


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Yes, and i am going to sail around the world in it! I'll show Bill King how to do it!


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

G- What the hell are you eating in that picture???? You look like you just swallowed a big mouthful of French wine!!!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I was farting........wich tastes pretty much like French wine...so....maybe you're right....


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Thats his **** eating grin, because hes full of crap!
Goodnight!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

That's it...BF you're and ass full of crap, get into the fight club, so I kick your peachy little ass!!!!!

Ohhh make sure you bring you boat!!!!!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

"_Now this is the internet, freedom of speech and all that good stuff... sorry as a brit we can say what we want and to whom....i believe it is the same over there ... unless you are still running under dicator bush... we have Herr Blair.. same thing differnt disgusie.....bottom line is that Mr.camardarie was way out of line... 
1. he expressed his personnel interest in the thread and his opinion, what ever happened to being neutral ???
2. he issued threats to mr sailmaster... banning for his response to another reply....what ever happened to just letting things just go and die a natural death ???
3. and after visiting his web page, it became apparent why....sorry any one who dresses in those yachtie clothes is just not taken seriously around here.. for goodness sakes,,, and after surfing his page discover he is an expert on the the 'ditch' and the east coast run ... come on do some real sailing... trans atlantic ? europe ? OHHH Great Britain ?? ( tides will confuse him)..and he runs this forum... experince and dress says heaps..._"

This is indeed part of the internet, so are the websites dealing with pederasty, White Supremacy, Militant Theocracy and thousands of other social ills. However, when we sign on to this site, we expect to be able to engage in discourse similar to that we would engage in at our local boat club or marina. And let me guarantee you here and now - diatribes like that little post of yours up there would at a minimum, result in your ostracism and might well be sufficent grounds to request that you find somewhere else to sail from.

It may well be that a certain socio-economic stratum of your British society and your generation have held fast to a vernacular and a narrow set of sartorial norms that bring comfort to the shallow, insecure little egos that cling desperately to the belief that the Empire will rise again AND that good dental hygiene is merely a passing fad.

HOWEVER. This is not the website for the posting of those thoughts. As inconceivable as it may seem, we have a whole continent over here - 400 million people - the vast majority of whom believe in the equality our fellows. We are here on Sailnet to talk about boats, not to deliberately attempt to incite controversy through the use of terms that serve no purpose than to bring discomfort to others.

And as far as Cam's clothing goes - what the F*** business is it of yours what he wears A**HOLE ???

Oh - one other thing - don't want to offend anyone, but you English folk are the only ones left who still use the words "Great" and "Britain" in the same sentence.

Regards from Sailormann


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Would you guys quit being serious and distracting from the frivolity.

Sailormon- That last line was great!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Yeahhh...Sailormann...what is wrong with you????

Why you bringing the thread back onto subject???


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Dos Sagres por favor ????


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well, this was definitely fun reading. I hope there wasn't anything posted on any other threads today, because it took all my time to read these 15 pages, what with all the laughing. I'd almost forget what the thread was about until every couple of pages someone would put in one on topic post.

Now where's my beer.

Charlie


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Giu....I refer back several pages where you presumed to make fun of me with this picture of my sartorial splendor (sartorial...look it up in your well worn portagee-anglais dictionary!! <g>).....









You will note that the person above has rings on his fingers and so cannot possibly be me. Furthermore it is not nice to mess with the great and all powerful OZ....as is evidenced by your new reputation rating!

....and now Fred has a higher rep than you!!! 

.....if only for a day!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

So that was you behind the curtain?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Giu....made ya look!!!


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

*Only complaint with Cam--he zaps the porn too fast!*

Wow. Look what I missed today, and this was right up my alley! And to think that I actually had to work today. Drat!!!!

Having read most of this thread, I won't offer much stuff "on topic" other than to say, if you thought the BN thread was bad, get your parts over to www.sailinganarchy,com. That truly is anarchy at its best (or worst?) And there are separate lists for all kinds of topics -- and don't dare to post something on the wrong list or you'll be called every name in the book. That site also has some of the most knowlegdeable people you're gonna find on sailing, especially racing. For example, if you have a question about yacht design, none other than noted designer Robert Perry hangs out there, along with one of the Johnstone's (sorry -- they all run together for me!) Anyway, an interesting site if you have a tough hide.

As for the BN term, I recall a few years ago when a politician was run out of office for using the word "niggardly." Now that is sad.

Oddly enough, I spent the day in our nation's capital at meetings about keeping the country safe for democracy. Bet you had no idea meetings could do that, huh? Well, I drank lots of coffee and played with my Blackberry.

Who knew that Cam kept a tie onboard? Damn!

And thanks to all of you for putting up with me and my winged keel fetish. What little discrimination I felt a while ago about my keel has melted away, mostly due to my own obstinence about it, and to Giu's ugly pictures he subjects us to. Those pics make my mind go numb.

Cam -- keep up the good work.

Now, I am glad I finished this post before Giu posted more of those pictures. YUCK!!!!!


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

A cut and paste from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggardly

"Niggardly is a word synonymous with stingy and miserly, and a niggard (noun) is a miser. They are both derived from the Old Norse verb nigla, meaning "to fuss about small matters". (The English word "niggle" retains the original Norse meaning.)

The word is not related to the word ******, though someone unfamiliar with the word "niggardly" might take offense due to the phonetic similarity between the words. (The word "******" is from the earlier "neger," which is from French nègre, from Latin niger, meaning black.)"

This is why I am so upset by the knee jerk reaction of ignorant people. Perfectly good words ruined by misuse or ignorance.
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Robert-

Unfortunately, there is little one can do about ignorant people who have no motivation to cure themselves of their ignorance. Blatant stupidity is also fairly incurable...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well I checked out the Sailing Anarchy Site (as SailorMitch suggested) ... looked through a forum - Boatbuying or something... Discussion was primarily focussed on how to belittle the other party when making a deal for a boat. Looked at the classifieds on the off-chance that there would be something of interest - appears to be a racing-oriented site. Not surprised that they spend their time racing. Based on the (admittedly limited) comments I read in the forum, I think they would have difficulty finding crew willing to sign on for an extended curise in their company....and then again, maybe I'm just getting old...  ??


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

SailorMitch said:


> Well, I drank lots of coffee and played with my Blackberry.
> YUCK!!!!!


Is that what you call it? And you do it in public?? 

Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Robert - when did the gods of political correctness ever let facts, or. common sense, get in their way?


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Tartan34C said:


> A cut and paste from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggardly
> 
> "Niggardly is a word synonymous with stingy and miserly, and a niggard (noun) is a miser. They are both derived from the Old Norse verb nigla, meaning "to fuss about small matters". (The English word "niggle" retains the original Norse meaning.)
> 
> ...


I just finished a book called The Human Stain by Philip Roth. In it, the main character is a classics professor who has two students who have never shown up for class. One day in class he reads off their names and asks if they are real people or are they "spooks," meaning ghosts. The missing students happen to be african-american and controversy ensues that stains the professor's otherwise distinguished career. (I highly recommend the book, by the way.)

It called to mind that in Law School, I had a professor who said in class one day, "sometimes you have to call a spade a spade." Although this idiom has nothing to do with the racial slur (to my knowledge), he later found it appropriate to apologize to his class for using it.

Were these just or proportionate reactions to the use of the words? No. The natural reaction is to conclude that political correctness has run amok. But words are powerful and evoke strong reactions and this is further complicated by the fact that many among us do not know derivations and apparently are not interested in learning them when their emotions have been stirred up. Unfortunately, some words that have a specific and useful meaning (like niggardly) are becoming casualties of our very sensitive society. Personally, however, I do not think it is any sacrifice to avoid a hateful work like the "n" word. To me, it is just plain ugly and I understand how people would react strongly to it. That doesn't mean that any word that sounds like it should be banned.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

After my prior post I did some research on calling a spade a spade. I lifted this from a "word of the day" site. I would still caution someone not to use the phrase in a speach -- not because it is wrong but only because of the hassle that could result.



> What is the origin of the expression "call a spade a spade"? Is this a politically correct expression?
> ​Let's get two things straight here: first, the expression *to call a spade a spade* is thousands of years old and etymologically has nothing whatsoever to do with any racial sentiment. The second is that in spite of this, some people *think* it is a racial statement, and therefore it should be treated with some caution.
> *To call a spade a spade*, which means, ironically for this discussion, 'to speak plainly and bluntly; to speak without euphemisms', is first found in Ancient Greece. The exact origin is uncertain; the playwright Menander, in a fragment, said "I call a fig a fig, a spade a spade," but Lucian attributes the phrase to Aristophanes. Later, Plutarch notes that "The Macedonians are a rude and clownish people who call a spade a spade." (It is worth noting that the Greek word translated as "spade" seems actually to mean something like "bowl" or "trough"; the "spade" may be based on a Renaissance mistranslation. In this case the original expression was "to call a bowl a bowl," and thus the "spade" expression is "only" 500, rather than 2,500, years old.)
> 
> ...


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

CBinRI, PBzeer and Sailingdog,
You guys are right and with a few well chosen words you can start a war or just as easily bring the gunfire to an end. When you are dealing with emotions and abstract thoughts, reason, common sense and logic have no effect on most people.
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## trantor12020 (Mar 11, 2006)

Freedom of Speech?
there's saying in my country, "you have freedom of speech, no freedom after speech".


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Fortunately, or unfortunately depending on your perspective the english language derives the meaning of words from common use and understanding that is constantly evolving. (Even if many of its users stopped evolving long ago.) I too love to study the origins of words/phrases and HATE political correctness (derived from Marxism as a way to stay in political favor), however we have to work within the language we have now not the language we wish we still had.

One last thought while on topic. Does anyone else find it ironic that a "Brit", from a country without a constitution and certainly no Bill of Rights, would bring up "Freedom of Speech"?????


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Want to know something funny??

The word in Portuguese (derives from Latin) for an African person of darker colour is *****. The colour of coal (black) is PRETO.

If you call an African here PRETO = BALCK he gets really really really offended...he will insist you call him *****. And often when people here say PRETO, the ususal answer is "I am not coal...."

Over there, it seems that calling ***** is an offense...how did things get twisted??? 

And the origin of the word ***** comes from when the tribes of the river Niger where first met by Portuguese sailors. Then the "gentes do niger", or in English "pople of the Niger". Nothing to do with colour!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The race, in my Country, for an African person is Negroide. I am not racist or such....I am in fact amazed how things got upside-down.

Still...as is known...it makes people unconfiortable there, so that should be a reason not to use these words there...just don't come here and say black.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

How did I know this was all going to relate back to an ancient Portuguese sailor??????


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

That’s interesting Giulietta but how did the river Niger get its name. Was it named for the people along the shore? 
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

T34C said:


> How did I know this was all going to relate back to an ancient Portuguese sailor??????


Because my Dear T34C, while the rest of the World was burning women accusing themk of witchcraft, (as the French did), or fighting each other (as the British/scotish/Irish welsh still do today, or eating the hearts of their enemies (the Germans), the Portuguese, in 1400's and for 200 years, sailed the World..documenting and registering, thus touching the history of many many Nations today...including yours.....yes....including yours.....

We still say have a saying here that says "its better to sail than to fight" meaning you get more from sailing an find other stuff than from going to War.....
By the way...do you know that in Brasil, the word "*****" can and is used as a sign of affection towards an African person????

examples "vem cá negão", "me diz negão", " vem ca neguinha"...


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

CBinRI. Did that quote come wikipedia? I find the reference to "profane oath" an oxymoron,as it has to be "sacred" in order to be besmirched. Also, "By God's Blood" is an oath and whether shortened to "bloody" or not was considered as such.
To all the rest, yes, it is an affront to civility, when ad hominem and assumptive
superiority reign supreme in a "discussion."
No one should be demeaned in contemporary times, except Big Fat Women.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

G- _"We still say have a saying here that says "its better to sail than to fight" meaning you get more from sailing an find other stuff than from going to War....."_

How do you say this in Portuguese????


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Tartan34C said:


> That's interesting Giulietta but how did the river Niger get its name. Was it named for the people along the shore?
> All the best,
> Robert Gainer


This what I lerant in school as we have to study history in school for 10 years...    before going to University.

The now Country Burkina Faso, (ex Upper Volta), was named Alto Volta (Stop Go Around in English), because the first Portuguese sailors sailing South believed that the earth was Square..... so as they moved South and followed the African Coast South, at some point the coast "turns" East...they believed this was a sign of the end of the World, and affraid from dropping, they marked the Volta (turn) river as the go around point. Later, as they continued, they then kept going south and found the locals in what is now Nigeria (land of the Niger - read NEEJER- that had the river there). They were the locals....guess what...Lagos, means lake in Portuguese, and there was a large accumulation of sea lakes in Nigeria....

The tribes there called themselves the tribes of the Niger...*gher n gherem*, "river of rivers".....http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Níger.

The Portuguese NEVER changed the names of the Places they found that already had names, just made names for land with no previous name...that's a known fact....if you go in Brasil...many native lands still have thir names, ajust like in Africa....our ex-colonies all kept thir native names...


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Problem is, we have Wayyyyyyyyyy too many people who want to be victims now days. Words, have in many ways, become not ways to express yourself clearly, but rather to shroud yourself in ambiguity, or disguise what you really mean. I'd give some examples, but I'd surely get someone upset, if I did in fact, call a shovel a shovel. Heck, I'm not even sure what the proper current terminology is for anything.


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## goose327 (Jun 11, 2001)

HEY!!!! Who you callin' a shovel?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Sailormann said:


> Dos Sagres por favor ????


É para já.....queres de garrafa ou pressão?????

Been here????? By the way in Portuguese its "DUAS", not "DOS"....


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

ZZ...I love you man...everytime I see your avatar.....I admire you....you look cool.....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Good one Goose*



goose327 said:


> HEY!!!! Who you callin' a shovel?


I don't care who you are, that's funny. LMFAO


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

T34C said:


> G- _"We still say have a saying here that says "its better to sail than to fight" meaning you get more from sailing an find other stuff than from going to War....."_
> 
> How do you say this in Portuguese????


"Mais vale sair velejar...que sair para guerrear..."


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Thanks G- I like that one a lot.


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## goose327 (Jun 11, 2001)

I hate to break up this fun with something useful, but I use this site quite alot.
http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Carry on.......


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Hey G. Of course you would rather sail than fight, you are better at sailing than fighting. (back handed in jest compliment) Or could it be you sailed to get away from those women you have been posting?
pigslo


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

pigslo said:


> Hey G. Of course you would rather sail than fight, you are better at sailing than fighting. (back handed in jest compliment) Or could it be you sailed to get away from those women you have been posting?
> pigslo


Pigs...my cousin Amelia, said she received a letter from Aunt Jamila saying you treat her very nice....she got jeallous, so asked me to send you a photo of her, with the question: Will you take me too??? Pigs????? I will clean your bottom....


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

goose327 said:


> I hate to break up this fun with something useful, but I use this site quite alot.
> http://babelfish.altavista.com/
> 
> Carry on.......


Cool site, but it translated G's saying into "More valley to leave to sail... that to leave to fight" Now I need another translator to tell me what the hell that means.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

G- Does you family tree actually have more than one branch??? You seem to have an over abundance of ... shall we say ... homely relatives.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

class reunion photos ... betcha ...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

T34C said:


> Cool site, but it translated G's saying into "More valley to leave to sail... that to leave to fight" Now I need another translator to tell me what the hell that means.


I'll help you....

Mais vale sair velejar...que para guerrear....

Mais = more = better = better
Vale = Valley = (but together with "mais" makes "better to")
Sair = go out = depart
Velejar = Sail
que = than
para = to
Guerrear = act of fighting, verb.

So it would translate...." better to sail than to fight"


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

tigerregis said:


> CBinRI. Did that quote come wikipedia? I find the reference to "profane oath" an oxymoron,as it has to be "sacred" in order to be besmirched. Also, "By God's Blood" is an oath and whether shortened to "bloody" or not was considered as such.
> To all the rest, yes, it is an affront to civility, when ad hominem and assumptive
> superiority reign supreme in a "discussion."
> No one should be demeaned in contemporary times, except Big Fat Women.


This is where it came from:

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19970115


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## freddy4888 (Nov 16, 2006)

now I know why G is always inviting people to visit him and go sailing. He needs help with his spinnaker pole to shove those woman overboard:


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

CBinRI. Thanks, I'm off to read it.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

T34C said:


> G- Does you family tree actually have more than one branch??? You seem to have an over abundance of ... shall we say ... homely relatives.


I don't know....we are all related in more than one way....like my cousins...they all married each other....

Here's my mum...do you know her??? she is well known around here...she works at a bar....but she's not a waitress....


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

freddy4888 said:


> now I know why G is always inviting people to visit him and go sailing. He needs help with his spinnaker pole to shove those woman overboard:


No...we invite people beacuse we too have to eat...you know.....


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

No thanks G, we have enough shark repellant already with Aunt Jamila. We put her in the water and it is safe for the kids to swim as every shark within a mile gets lost. Sharks have standards, you know.
pigslo


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

pigslo said:


> No thanks G, we have enough shark repellant already with Aunt Jamila. We put her in the water and it is safe for the kids to swim as every shark within a mile gets lost. Sharks have standards, you know.
> pigslo


Cousin Amelia says, she'll do too, but will also add the sharks she kills with her bare hands and looks  

She says she's a sex machine......


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

CBinRI, Good place to start. Thanks again.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

tigerregis said:


> No one should be demeaned in contemporary times, except Big Fat Women.


What do you mean??????' Yoiu just offended my entire family......


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> What do you mean??????' Yoiu just offended my entire family......


Giulietta-

You must be a brave man, since you just called your wife fat... brave but really stupid...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Giulietta-
> 
> You must be a brave man, since you just called your wife fat... brave but really stupid...


I'm sure she's really worried with that, too!!!!

As you can see she's a pot of lard.......


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

No, she isn't but calling some women fat, regardless of whether it is true or not can be very risky...  Again, I have to question her mental health...being paired up with you... the portugese domestic wines must be far stronger than the stuff they export if that's what helped you catch her...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Again, I have to question her mental health...being paired up with you...


Now you offended her.......

By the way...she is the reason my boat is only 42'......if I had bought a cheaper woman in the market I would have built a larger boat...maybe 90'....  

But as she was skinny...I got a good deal on her....


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## MarkMiner (Oct 10, 2006)

Interesting article in usatoday:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-02-27-nword_x.htm


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## chrondi (Mar 24, 2004)

Although it seems that Giu's distraction tactics worked for a while and pulled quite a few members of the forum away from the hot subject towards the funny side of life, the heavy legacy of our society (i.e. open or dissimulated slavery in the not so distant past and even in our era) is there and ever present as a sensitive topic to haunt mankind. Let us just accept it and try to avoid hurting people or bringing back very sad memories!


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

Right now on NPR, an African-American defending the use of our topical word.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

PC Alert
I'm on the record as finding the term offensive and in less than poor judgement in it's use. But what in the Hell has that got to do with slavery and who amoung us has memories of slavery?

The bottom line is that the predominant users of the offensive word in question are black people. I guess that puts the kabosh on the use of it being an all-the-time racial epithet. But then I forgot that some on the left claim that black's are incapable of being racist, so I may have to rethink the point.

As far as slavery goes, it's been over and done with for 150 years. Jim Crow has been gone for nearly 50 years and ginning up the game to prey on white guilt does not change those facts. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..." That's the be all and end all of America. That's what make's America the shining city on the hill that attracts people from throughout the world to our shores. Countless peoples were treated as less than equal in our past, and that's called history-not legacy. Our legacy is the commitment to those self-evident truths without which the less than equal treatment of peoples would still thrive today. Yeah, there's still sensitivity about it, usually too much sensitivity in my opinion because all that sensitivity get's in the way of what we do day in and day out. And what I prefer to do is to take a man as met; go to work, go sailing, or go have a beer. But what my ancestor may, or may not, have done to his ancestor doesn't enter the conversation any more than would, "so how does it feel to be black?" btw, that's the old Doug Williams question-"How does it feel to be a black quarterback?" I am stunned that people do not see the implicit condescension towards blacks in such thinking. We fought a world war in the last century against the Germans and the Japanese, yet no one ascribes past German or Japanese behavior to Germans or Japanese in this country today. Same should finally be true with slavery. It's done, it's over-with and to say otherwise flies in the face of the facts as they are today in the USA. Knock off the claptrap.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Maybe it is the offence taken and not the insult given that is at issue. On this side of the pond, it seems that reference, in America, to someone's antecedence being from the African states of Niger or Nigeria is a jest between two of similar hue but an insult between those of chromatic difference. Back to the thread title:-
I have noticed a distinct anti-gallic tendency. Perhaps the thread should be renamed "Fair or Francophobic".


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Idiens said:


> Maybe it is the offence taken and not the insult given that is at issue. On this side of the pond, it seems that reference, in America, to someone's antecedence being from the African states of Niger or Nigeria is a jest between two of similar hue but an insult between those of chromatic difference. Back to the thread title:-
> I have noticed a distinct anti-gallic tendency. Perhaps the thread should be renamed "Fair or Francophobic".


I am admitedly Francophobic.....and also waterhosophobic  

I am not racist and I shake an African man's hand.....just like I shake a Frenchman's neck.......


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

As an old professor of mine once said "I'm not prejudiced, I hate everyone equally."


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Hey! He stole that from me!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Never mind. I deleted this post. Let it die.


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## chrondi (Mar 24, 2004)

The phrase "As far as slavery goes, it's been over and done with for 150 years" quoted by sailaway21 is evidence that the First World is pretending not knowing (or even worse: it actually ignores) what is happening to those unlucky living creatures being children of a lesser god.
Dear sailaway21,
have you ever been just curious enough to ask or able to imagine how working conditions are in the faraway world of say an Indian or a Chinese factory? How is the place where the rose you offered to your girlfriend was cut (Latin America) or the sportshoes you wear were sewn (Indonesia)?
Do we define such situations as simply discrimination or pure slavery?


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

chrondi said:


> The phrase "As far as slavery goes, it's been over and done with for 150 years" quoted by sailaway21 is evidence that the First World is pretending not knowing (or even worse: it actually ignores) what is happening to those unlucky living creatures being children of a lesser god.
> Dear sailaway21,
> have you ever been just curious enough to ask or able to imagine how working conditions are in the faraway world of say an Indian or a Chinese factory? How is the place where the rose you offered to your girlfriend was cut (Latin America) or the sportshoes you wear were sewn (Indonesia)?
> Do we define such situations as simply discrimination or pure slavery?


I'm going to refrain from jumping in with both feet as was my first reaction to this. _"...what is happening to those unlucky living creatures being children of a lesser god."_ There is but one God. This post started with the rediculous and just went down hill from there.

CD- I really appreciated your post. I too grew-up in those times, but with a little different circumstance.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Let's lighten up. If you want to write political commentary try another blog. The ocean does not discriminate. Out there it is based on developed skills not race, color, or creed. That's the beauty of sail. Things out there are different than land.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Well, thank you T. I deleted it though. Old wounds, I guess, that feel too awkward to discuss on an open forum - or even with close friends. Only my wife knows much about it. But we have two choices when life does not treat you fair: Let it bring you down or make you stronger. 

I think it is hard for many people on the outside, our poor Brit for example, to understand the racial tensions in this country. I don't think we even understand it. Many stand on the sidelines, some jump into the march, others are thrown in for the stampede. I have been all three, and only time will work it out. There are many people that have MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more of a right to speak of racial inequalities and the pains they have caused then me. My time is small compared to many of them. But I have felt it, all the same, but hold no grudges to any but those that sent me there. But they won't have my children. I will leave this country first, and I love my country. If you don't know what I mean that you cannot comprehend what I have seen. I will just say this and let it be (on some far off chance a politician might actually be in our forum): Our children are not your pawns to settle old debts of racial ineqaulities. 

Mmm. Tough discussion. Occupied most of my morning and a long conversation with Kris. Deep breath. Back to the lighter side of life and sailing. (smile).

- CD


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

LWL,
'course you're correct, the sea'll drown anyone without discrimination and I suspect more than a few have found God or gods out there ... still, don't recollect seein' a lot of poor folks.


CD ... hell man, ya'll had it easy!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

CD...move here...we welcome you...we'll treat you fare...our politicians sons go to the same schools our children go....

Just leave the Catalina there, ok???


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Giu,

Thank you for the invite. I am not sure I have the Photoshop skills to make it through the entry process!! I have, finally, moved over to "The Darkside" for a bit. I am sooooo pissed at you Giu. I laid in bed the other night actually thinking about ways for you to reduce your weight. If you promise not to laugh, I will throw some out... or should this be sent to you in a private message, encrypted, so that none of your competitors will hear?? (smile).

- CD


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Nahhh you can send them here...I'll enjoy them...

By the way..you guys are the Dark side...I am the "light" side (get it?? light as in luminosity as well as weight)....my name is Luke SkiGiu!!!

Throw your ideas...lets see..


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Skigiu ... a snow machine powered by methane and hot air ... snicker ...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

HIS ideas....CEB...not yours.....


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Ah, I see ... Skigiu, a personal water craft powered by methane and hot air.
my apologies ... snicker again!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

CEB....ehehehehehe

Methane...here....is farts...and hot air....there...if I am not mistaken is BS, am I wrong???


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Ok Giu, here goes a few:

1) Buy a handheld watermaker and empty your water tanks. 120 gallons is what... 960 pounds?

2) Carry the absolute least amount of fuel you can. Plan it out.

3) Are your floor boards screwed in? What about pulling them and replacing with starboard? I believe it is lighter. It is also rough and probably would not skid as easy??

THoughts?? Am I off base?


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17388702/?GT1=9145


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I'd like to propose a non-binding resolution on banning non-binding resolutions banning free speech. I'd make it a binding resolution, but then I'd actually have to stand for something, rather than just sounding like I did.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Ok Giu, here goes a few:
> 
> 1) Buy a handheld watermaker and empty your water tanks. 120 gallons is what... 960 pounds?
> 
> ...


1)My water tanks are bellow the water line, under the boat's floor, and can be filled with salt water (if we want to), they also work as balast, as I can transfer all the water from Stbd to port, to front to rear...depending on the tack. Emptying them sometimes is not good.

2) My floor boards are the ceiling of the water tanks. After dully covered with epoxy and the wood we walk on is a venner of very very resistant Panga-panga wood. couldn't be lighter.

3) Fuel management is already done...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Well, Giu, I am trying!!! Let's see, what about putting your boat on a lift, sanding off the boom paint, and just keeping a waxed hull? I sailed on a J where a guy did that. Still, that sounds really expensive.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

my friend does that on his TP52...It gets off the water at the end of each day.

For me its not practical, we all race with painted bottoms. However...I use Jotun Teflon racing paint, which is better for speed than normal paints, but requires more washing...and lasts less. paint every 10 months or so.

When I was young we used to polish the boats with wax and then rub a potatoe on the hull.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Of course, if you had a nice Catalina-Morgan, you wouldn't have to spend all that time and money trying to make it faster. Instead you could be relaxing with a glass of wine and a good cigar, without a care in the world. <G>


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

PB....I still relax with the cigar and the wine, almost everyday (the wine at least)...have a lot of time on my hands and not really care much about much....

This is my hobby....some fish, some collect stamps...I enjoy my boat and like the racing....that's all...but I still enjoy life....


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Ah, you see, that's the difference, my boat is my life, not my hobby <G>.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

PB I know...

the difference between us are many...you retired...I haven't, yet...my kids and wife are my life....the boat is just that...a life long passion and a hobby...


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Chrondi,
Actually, I've been to virtually every deep water port in the world with the exception of the west coast of South America. So, to paraphrase a famous NY Times columnist whose name has slipped my memory, "I've been to the other side and It Doesn't work". To the extent that countries practise capatalism, and usually some form of democracy, freedom and the chance for a better life for their children does exist. And which country in the world best typifies that philosophy? As for low-wage footwear production; in every country that I have been to, noted for it's production, those jobs have been desirous because they paid far more than the jobs, or no jobs, that prevailed prior to the footwear industry setting up. Other, and better, jobs will eventually grow out of those industries. Or should such people be consigned to the poverty they already have, and subsist on basket production to a transitory tourist market? The USA had sweat-shops, and people worked in them so that their children would not have to do so. Economic freedom, liberty, and some form of government that tolerates those are the answer to the needs of people. In all places, at all times, and to all people.
Gotta go.


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## chrondi (Mar 24, 2004)

We should all thank sailaway21 for reminding us that the alternative to slavery is hunger and eventually death.
PS: We sailors should be very pleased that there is no discrimination whatsoever at sea, but we would be much happier if the same applied also on land.


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## RAGNAR (Feb 21, 2007)

chrondi said:


> We should all thank sailaway21 for reminding us that the alternative to slavery is hunger and eventually death.


I took his point was that without freedom, ie, capitalism, all we have is hunger and death.

History pans that assertion out.


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## chrondi (Mar 24, 2004)

I feel obliged to put it bluntly: in many parts of our world you either accept awful working conditions (i.e. low wages, long work hours and no paid leave, precarious employment and even child labour, which is equivalent to a form of slavery) or you let the population die quickly or slowly from starvation. Am I now clearly understood?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Gee, I work long hours in awful working conditions as a well driller, and I certainly could be better paid. My employment is precarious, although the boss hasn't brought that up lately-thankfully so. And I do so to avoid starvation, early death, and the prospect of my daughter having to work more. But then I guess that your argument isn't really with me anyway as I do all of this willingly, and I even get to sail once in awhile. The problem with the places that you are referring to is, generally speaking, their government. I am sure that the various consulates of the governments concerned have web-sites and would be interested in hearing from you. Constructive criticizm and all that, you know...


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

This is a serious response to " all places, all people, all times."
That is a point of view; I don't disagree with it, personally. However, it is presumptuous to assume that all the rest of the world agrees with it. They don't; some want what they are used to and some don't want to even contemplate our discussion over BN.(and PLEASE do not consider this picking at scabs). I am all in favour of Jesuit/Talmudic arguments/discussions, I hope you do to.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Tartan34C,
I'm a little tardy in replying. Interesting that in the very institution where we are to be inculcating the ideals of free speech, generally understood to be political free speech, we are oppressing the same. Oh well, just consider it college prep., as it will only get worse on campus. Interesting that the school feels it has a role to play in protecting people in their sexuality. It used to be that educators found the repression of sexuality, regardless of type, to be conducive to the process of education. It used to a problem if students were beaten up for any cause with the cause or financial inducement being irrelevant to the crime. But when those things happened we had to go see the principle for a tongue lashing, then on to the coach for some strenuous exercise ('til we dropped), sit in the corner in public humiliation, and probably go apologize to the other students parents. And after that we got home where the fireworks really started. Today the school is apparently unable to handle such things for fear of damaging fragile self-images, and the only thing that seems to get thm off their role as thought police is a big fat law-suit. Pity.


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## RAGNAR (Feb 21, 2007)

chrondi said:


> I feel obliged to put it bluntly: in many parts of our world you either accept awful working conditions (i.e. low wages, long work hours and no paid leave, precarious employment and even child labour, which is equivalent to a form of slavery) or you let the population die quickly or slowly from starvation. Am I now clearly understood?


But you're deciding what is an acceptable standard of living for the smaller economies of the world by refernece to the standards of the larger ones. This is beyond fallacious.

What's implied by your statement is that there can't be, or ought not to be, any advantages in reaching a certain truth first, or that there should be no consequences in refusing to live in accordance with that truth.

You're also implying that the only road that can take a given culture from mud huts to Park Ave is unacceptably long, ineffective, unfair, when the fact is that nations starting down that road today will have an easier time of reaching reasonable goals than ever before -- all thanks to the knowledge and output of the economies you're condemning by implication.

Trillions of $ worth of aide have made clear that there's no bypassing the need to rise by your own efforts -- be it either on a person-to-person or nation-to-nation scale.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Hear, hear Ragnar. Hear, hear!


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## donrr1 (Oct 25, 2002)

Ma and Pa raise their boy feeding him grasshoppers and tell him that they are THE best food in the entire world. The boy is now 21 and you ask him what his favorite food is, he says, of course, grasshoppers. You look at him and say, grasshoppers??? You say, I feel sorry for you boy, here is a prime rib of beef, I would like you to have something really good for a change. You leave, the boy either throws the prime rib out or gives it to the dog.

Food for thought?

Don


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## goose327 (Jun 11, 2001)

"Food for thought?"
The grasshoppers, or the beef? I've never thought of grasshoppers as brain food, but they make GREAT trout bait. 
Come on you guys(you know who you are)we can't carry this show alone. The thread already got an answer, it's OK to go O/T now.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

For grasshoppers, first you gotta dip them in chocolate. 

Charlie


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## goose327 (Jun 11, 2001)

The there was that NASTY cocktail going around in the 60s,, the grasshopper. What was it,,, chreme de mint and cream if my memory serves. Terrible stuff.


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## chrondi (Mar 24, 2004)

Let me again direct the discussion back to center stage: it is evident that the haves in the world do not mind about other people's children having nothing else than grasshoppers to eat, but in my view the global community risks a dangerous imbalance when the fat part gets increasingly fatter (in reality and not figuratively: read articles about obesity in rich countries and related diabetes frequency) while the leaner one becomes thinner and thinner. In nautical terms such a situation can cause capsize. I certainly do not believe that the average man on the street can do much to eliminate this disgrace, but at least he should acknowledge the problem.
PS: As far as I know, every child in the world prefers playing than working or starving, every worker needs some rest from time to time!


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

chrondi said:


> I certainly do not believe that the average man on the street can do much to eliminate this disgrace, but at least he should acknowledge the problem.


 So, let me see if I understand you correctly. You don't want to take any meaningful action to solve the problem. You just want to give lip-service to it, and make us all feel guilty about it in the hope that we'll do something about it. I admire your sense of committment.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

goose327 said:


> The there was that NASTY cocktail going around in the 60s,, the grasshopper. What was it,,, chreme de mint and cream if my memory serves. Terrible stuff.


My memory from the past is a bit foggy, Don't remember much from the '70's. (or 60's for that matter) At least Goose has good long term memory. He is way ahead of the game.


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

Chrondi
Life IS cheap (and dirty and difficult and contridictory), we in the US have been brainwashed into thinking otherwise (turn of that damn tv). Our grandparents worked as children, it was a 'normal' part of the growth of any country. Only those whose ancestors 'suffered' (but they didn't call it that) have the ironic right to complain about how awful it is that it still happens in other countries. BTW in farm country in this country, children still work, they are called 'chores', and without that system, you couldn't afford what milk or bread (never mind meat) would cost. I'm not claiming that things can't be better than they are, but idealism without honesty is just fascism in training. 

(PS how much of your 'stuff' is made in China?)


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

ReverendMike said:


> BTW in farm country in this country, children still work, they are called 'chores', and without that system, you couldn't afford what milk or bread (never mind meat) would cost.


This part of your argument is invalid, IMHO. I suspect that very little of the food we eat is produced, even indirectly, by the labor of children. The quaint family farm you seem to recall is largely a thing of the past. Farms are large operations with as much automation and heavy machinery in use as any industry you can name. To posit that children doing their chores in such a scenario in any way affects the cost of a loaf of bread is laughable.


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## goose327 (Jun 11, 2001)

Way off base fstbttms. You obviously don't know much about rural America. Don't take that as an insult, just a headsup. If you'll notice the Reverends home port(Misery,,LOL), I can tell you for certain that kids do play a BIG role. In Idaho, during the spud(that's taters for you Southerners) harvest, alot of schools close for a week or so. Slave labor,, hell no, family farming.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

goose327 said:


> Way off base fstbttms. You obviously don't know much about rural America. Don't take that as an insult, just a headsup. If you'll notice the Reverends home port(Misery,,LOL), I can tell you for certain that kids do play a BIG role. In Idaho, during the spud(that's taters for you Southerners) harvest, alot of schools close for a week or so. Slave labor,, hell no, family farming.


Well, slap me silly and call me Betty! I'll stand corrected then!


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## Shantyman (Aug 19, 2006)

*Free Speech vs Common Civility*

Just because you CAN do something, should you? Let's take all the lofty constitituional issues from the mix and focus on something a little more fundemental. Common courtesy, decency, and polite usage of language is the basis of civilized and effective communication. One of the problems with forums, email lists, and other anonymous means of communications is that there are no real reasons to be polite. In a face-to-face conversation, inflammoatory language is avoided because of discomfort or fear of verbal or even physical retaliation. In the cyber world, we have absolutely no effective way of punishing transsgressors of good taste in a significant manner.

I would ask the gentle reader to allow me to paraphrase a cliche that still packs a punch - "profanity is the lowest form of wit". If you cannot express your point of view on a topic without resorting the the most base usages of language, than I would suggest you reevaluate the merits of your argument. I would hazard to guess that it is lacking.

Good Day to you all.....


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I own a small vineyard and yes, kids do help.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

*we have absolutely no effective way of punishing transsgressors of good taste in a significant manner.

*Gee... I have a nice big button here that does just that. Just don't expect everyone to share your definition of good taste. Here...it is personal attacks that tend to get my attention. 
And lest your cliche be taken as the last word...I submit:
*Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer. 
Mark Twain

or
I don't think a little kid should be punished for somethin' he learned from a parrot ! ~ Dennis the Menace*


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Well, technically cam... we don't have an effective way of punishing transgressors... however, you do...  LOL


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Dats a nice button Cam!
Pluck yer magic twanger Froggy. Andy Devine


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## goose327 (Jun 11, 2001)

Fstbttms said:


> Well, slap me silly and call me Betty! I'll stand corrected then!


Yo, Betty, no offense, I was just making a point.


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

Sorry, but I believe it is, "puns are the lowest form of wit." Naturally, here, I am prepared to find not only the source and its etymology. Carry on.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

What about sarcasm? Isn't that the lowest form? Shakespeare was very fond of puns.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

No, effective sarcasm is an art form. It requires a sense of humor and/or bite, effectively transmitted in a few words.


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

Yes, you are on the money. Personally, I find puns or any wordplay that are spontaneous, a delight to hear. Wiki says "ascribed" to Wilde.


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## Shantyman (Aug 19, 2006)

c'mon people - PARAPHRASE - using something _almost_ the way it was said or written. I am quite familiar with Mr. Wilde and Mr. Twain and the proper quotes.

Once again, I stand by my dismay at the sometimes shocking lack of decency or courtesy that is found in forums and usegroups. It's not like my kids - I teach high school. They swear or use inappropriate language around me and they will immediately apologize for the slip. It's lamentable, but forgiveable. In this medium, there really is no acceptable reason for being crass, rude, or vulgar. One does not 'slip' when typing a post. No, gentles all, it is not a mistake, it is an act of rage. One should always reread a heated post twice before clicking on the post button.

This is just my 2 cents - of course I know that I am free to 'ignore' people or simply stop reading a post. My point is that we really shouldn't HAVE to do these things.

Thanks again!


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

goose327 said:


> Yo, Betty, no offense, I was just making a point.


None taken.


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## RAGNAR (Feb 21, 2007)

chrondi said:


> Let me again direct the discussion back to center stage: it is evident that the haves in the world do not mind about other people's children having nothing else than grasshoppers to eat,




But the point is that the center you seek to focus us on is a construct.

Why?

You have not acknowledged two things:

1)

The only way out for these cultures is to rise on their own.

2)

Many of these cultures do not want to adopt the ideas/methods required to affect change.

Q:

Could you point to a single instance where the guilt-packed, self-sacrifice you're demanding by implication has ever done anything more than produce more poor?

It's only after the UN and other "carrying" organizations got involved that the #s of those starving started to rise exponentially.

Two "furthers":

1)

If only your side of the debate were as adamant about bringing the Machine that makes the West's standard of living possible, ie, Capitalism, to those so-called disadvantage people -- but then, that would mean that the Left gets out of the way in the West as well, and that's a no-no.

(Sidebar: ADM, for all their faults, can feed the world's starving today -- and turn a profit doing it. The obstacle is, and always has been, the politics in the regions where people starve.)

2)

I see no reason why the fact that someone had a child in an economy with a lower income per person than the one I live in obliges me to assure that that child achieves any standard of living -- not to the standard of the culture the child was born in, and certaily not to the standard of more advanced economies.

[/QUOTE] but in my view the global community risks a dangerous imbalance when the fat part gets increasingly fatter (in reality and not figuratively: read articles about obesity in rich countries and related diabetes frequency) while the leaner one becomes thinner and 
thinner.[/QUOTE]

What danger?

What is it that you think should be balanced? Balanced against what?

This zero sum outlook presupposes all sorts of commune/collective premises that are antithetical to the standard of living you want for everyone.

Allow me to suggest that you reconsider the difference between two terms the Left loves to equate:

"Equality" vs. "Equity".



chrondi said:


> In nautical terms such a situation can cause capsize.


What is it that's capsizing?

Q:

Aren't you at risk here of admitting the one thing the Leftists hate to admit, namely, that the West's core ideas are the world's only firewall between starvation and a life packed with options?



chrondi said:


> I certainly do not believe that the average man on the street can do much to eliminate this disgrace, but at least he should acknowledge the problem.


There is a problem.

I just don't agree Re the methods the Left wants to enact to resolve it, or that those affected necesarily want to change what needs to be changed.

I don't accept that a genuine solution to these problems can be accelerated past what unfettered capitalism can achieve --even if it could, I reject the idea that the more afluent have a responsibility to sacrifice in order for this acceleration to take place.

I don't accept that the West can do much about these issues other than provide the knowledge and know-how, and the Internet, and books prior to the WWW, has done that already. The West could eliminate the totalitarian regimes that are suppressing these people, or try ot force them into changing their outlook, but that's not the Left's way, is it?

I certainly don't accept the idea that the fact that there are tragedies the world over means that I have to carry any guilt about my lifestyle and potential, or be willing to sacrifice any part of my life so that people I don't know can live better -- that's Materialsim cutting both ways.

The beauty of this life is that such sacrifice is both unnecessary and counterproductive.



chrondi said:


> PS: As far as I know, every child in the world prefers playing than working or starving, every worker needs some rest from time to time!


This is a pure appeal to guilt.

Further, it's fallacy-packed, as you are, once again, "borrowing" one culture's economic standards and applying them where they cannot be applied.

I don't know you, but if you have much in common with friends of mine who hold your position on this issue, you only seek to "borrow" the West's standard of living and make a universal of it; my friends wouldn't dare presume to impose the culture that makes that standard of living possible on either cultures that don't have it, or, just as common, won't have it.


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## RAGNAR (Feb 21, 2007)

ReverendMike said:


> Life IS cheap (and dirty and difficult and contridictory), we in the US have been brainwashed into thinking otherwise (turn of that damn tv).


I agree that in too many parts of the world, life is cheap. (It was on its way to being so in the USA for a while, but we seme to have come back to our senses -- at least as far as crime is concerned.)

However, the evaluation of life being cheap is just that -- an evaluation.

The more a culture values life, ie the sanctity of the individual, and keeps in mind that Life is dynamic, the more it thirves.



ReverendMike said:


> Our grandparents worked as children, it was a 'normal' part of the growth of any country. Only those whose ancestors 'suffered' (but they didn't call it that) have the ironic right to complain about how awful it is that it still happens in other countries.


I don't see why "normal" is in quotes here. It was normal, and it has been normal throughout history.

When Britain introed Child Labor Laws at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution, the children that worked in those factories, and had a better life than they did as Surfs, took to the streets and countryside, steeling, ganging, and whoring. We must kill off the ressurgnece of the idea that some can know what's best for others so well, that they can impose it upon them.



ReverendMike said:


> BTW in farm country in this country, children still work, they are called 'chores', and without that system, you couldn't afford what milk or bread (never mind meat) would cost. I'm not claiming that things can't be better than they are, but idealism without honesty is just fascism in training.


Let's assume that no child in the USA, or the West, for that matter, has ever had to work.

What would this change Re what can be done about the plight of those starving in the world due to totaliatrians and/or adherence to ideas that reject freedom?

BTW: The more the West thrives economically, the better EVERYONE on Earth lives.

Economies are not zero sum games. The more wealth one person or nation earns, the more we all prosper. This fact is so ingrained in Capitalism that, like so many axiomatic concepts, it's hard to keep it in mind.


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## RAGNAR (Feb 21, 2007)

BTW: If my sermons on this thread are too much, I expect to be told so: either on board, orr in a PM.

I will take no offense.

Ragnar


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## goose327 (Jun 11, 2001)

Not at all RAG, keep it comin'. You should write for a living. Just don't use so many 5 dollar words,,LOL I don't get'em(and people in third world countries can't afford'em).


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Nah, your posts are fine by me Ragnar. You will have a problem with some though as you are dealing with realities rather than utopian ideals. I doubt that anyone that complains that American businesses don't pay as much to foreign labor as in the US realize that if they payed the same, there would be no point in going out of the country, which would mean that there would be no jobs to worry about the pay scale for.


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

Ragnar
'normal' was in quotes in an attempt to sneak the point past a seemingly closed mind (I didn't expect it to work, but thought I would try).

I agree that children working has nothing to do re starvation per se, (As you said, the food exists already, it's the delivery system/governments that cause/allow starvation) but it had everything to do with the overall growth of a country's economy. 

My only problem in your post was with "the sanctity of the individual"???? Please! Each individual life is a heartbeat away from no longer being, period. It could end tomorrow for me, for you, for anyone. That fragility is what makes it truly beautiful, truly sacred. If we love life jealously, we live a shadow.

M

(Sorry if i got offensive at the end)


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## chrondi (Mar 24, 2004)

The reaction from across this board was as if I invited the US economy and the world's richest countries to feed the underperforming to starving part. I was even depicted as the voice of the Left or someone believing that wealth cannot be generated or trying to impose our standards to other cultures. Who spoke about responsibility and guilt for the world's lamentable state? 
My only aim was to point out that there is a real problem and we should not show INDIFFERENCE living in a world where a small fraction of the global population consumes the largest part of the earth's resources,the gap between rich and poor becomes ever wider and indecent (by any contemporary standard) conditions concerning labour prevail in some countries!
In my view that is common sense and does not enter into any specific political agenda.
Just open your eyes my friends, be brave and see the truth!


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Rev - I think you misunderstood Ragnar about the sanctity of the individual. I believe what he was referring to is when you don't harness or otherwise impede people, they will work towards providing themselves with a better life.


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## Britsailor (Nov 18, 2006)

Chrondi, ... Ever heard of the saying ' do'nt preach to the choir '..... I'd give up on these yanks if i was you your just wasting your time..


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## RAGNAR (Feb 21, 2007)

ReverendMike said:


> My only problem in your post was with "the sanctity of the individual"???? Please! Each individual life is a heartbeat away from no longer being, period. It could end tomorrow for me, for you, for anyone. That fragility is what makes it truly beautiful, truly sacred. If we love life jealously, we live a shadow.


You remind me of the point Achilles makes in _Troy_, namely that the "Gods envy us" because of the frailty you IDed.

However, my point is that only by structuring societies in a way that acknowledges the sancitity of the individual in the social context, can we have material productivity, and, far more important, spirtiual fulfillment.

How's that for a run-on?


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Britsailor - perhaps you could supply us with the solution to the problem. Lot's of people blather about the ills of the world, few have any real world solutions to the problems.


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## chrondi (Mar 24, 2004)

Rightly said PBzeer!
Before contemplating any solution, you have to acknowledge the problem. Seemingly, not many people have reached that point yet.


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## goose327 (Jun 11, 2001)

chrondi said:


> Rightly said PBzeer!
> Before contemplating any solution, you have to acknowledge the problem. Seemingly, not many people have reached that point yet.


Or could it be that there is no solution, only the problem, and then only for those with it.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

chrondi - from what I read, your exposition of the problem looks only at the symptoms, and not the underlying causes, which is why it was taken as a Liberal/Left viewpoint. We've spent the past 40+ years trying to cure "poverty" in the US and have failed because it is only the sypmtoms that are being addressed, rather than the causes. It's easy to throw money at a problem, when it isn't your money, and get the kudos that go with "fixing things up". Much harder, and less applause when you work at the root causes to eliminate the problem.


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

Sorry Ragnar, just kind of tired of the 'supremacy of the individual' crap that seems to contol this country lately. It is a fine point, i guess, not fit for mass consumption?
And as for frailty, the closer you come to losing it all, the more you realize how close oblivion is. And how inevitable.

"for the truth is that i already know as much about my fate as i need to know. The day will come when i will die. So the only matter of consequence before me is what i will do with my allotted time. I can remain on shore, paralyzed with fear, or i can raise my sails and dip and soar in the breeze" - Richard Bode, _First you have to row a little boat_

Not trying to compete in the run-on catagory.


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## painkiller (Dec 20, 2006)

You guys really ought to drink more and think less.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

PBzeer said:


> No, effective sarcasm is an art form. It requires a sense of humor and/or bite, effectively transmitted in a few words.


Tiger, Idiens, PB,

Sorry guys you have it all wrong. The saying has been muddled for so many years but the original is in fact "the bun is the lowest form of wheat". (with thanks to Frank Muir and Dennis Norden)

Ref Sarcasm, it may well be the lowest form of wit but at least it is. Wit that is.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

painkiller - it's the thinkin' that leads to drinkin'


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## painkiller (Dec 20, 2006)

Sometimes after reading these forums, I understand why 

A) powerboaters don't like us
B) we can't get bikini babes on our boats


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

painkiller ... if you think Bob's gonna start buyin' 'em stuff to wear, well, yer nuts!


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## chrondi (Mar 24, 2004)

I now see very encouraging signs: I read words like problem, symptoms and roots. To those thinking that there may be major problems without any solution I would reply that the great progress of mankind along centuries of history has proved the opposite. Sure there are solutions (in plural!) but not easy ones. Start convincing people that the world is not sustainable with such imbalances and building a broad consensus against indifference to misery, hatred and war. It may take another generation before we realize that we humans along with the other living species are the crew of the unique ship called Earth. My children or my children's children will live in a better world only if we improve what we inherited from our parents. No, I'm not wasting my time and I'm not a wizard with the solutions ready in hand. But I keep hoping for a better future for EVERYBODY.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

painkiller - that presupposes anyone is worried about powerboaters liking us, and all them bikini babes are too worried about breaking a nail to handle a line.


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## RAGNAR (Feb 21, 2007)

chrondi said:


> The reaction from across this board was as if I invited the US economy and the world's richest countries to feed the underperforming to starving part.


May I ask where this has been implied?



chrondi said:


> I was even depicted as the voice of the Left


Are you saying that your views, as presented here via your objections and the issues you are stressing, aren't Leftist?



chrondi said:


> or someone believing that wealth cannot be generated


No, you've simply asserted that it's generated on the backs of the less fortunate or able. The facts have never allowed for this Leftist mantra.



chrondi said:


> or trying to impose our standards to other cultures.


I for one never said you were trying to impose Western standards on the less developed. I'd be with you if this were what you were after.

(For the record: I'm not sure one could impose freedom -- all one can do is clear the way for it. Further, I don't accept that it's the Wet's responsibility to spill blood and fortune to bring about a better standard of living for anyone -- Westerners inculded.)

(BTW: I just reread what I've posted on this thread. I see no way for you to infer the above.)



chrondi said:


> Who spoke about responsibility and guilt for the world's lamentable state?


You did, though like so many on your side of this debate, you did it through implication. It's the usual hit and run.

What is it about the Left that Lefties find so embarassing?



chrondi said:


> My only aim was to point out that there is a real problem and we should not show INDIFFERENCE


Here's where/how you did and do do it.



chrondi said:


> living in a world where a small fraction of the global population consumes the largest part of the earth's resources,


Here's how you cloud it.

What people who love throwing this one around never acknowledge is that the lesser developed economies have no use for these resources -- indeed, resources are only resources because industry can use them to create the goods that enable all of us to live better.

Further, have you bothered to note that the largest gains in standard of living are being made in the weaker economies, thanks, in part, to the ability of the West to convert worthless matter into life-saving products?



chrondi said:


> the gap between rich and poor becomes ever wider and indecent (by any contemporary standard),


And here's where the Left's true motive surfaces.

If they were truly interested in bettering the lives of the poor, they'd have to acknowledge that the so-called income gap one sees in free nations has nothing to do with the poor man's standard of living. (As I wrote in another post, it's time to make our peace with the difference between "Equity" and "Equality".)

Fact is, that while the income gap has grown in the West, it is the poor who have seen the biggest gain in standard of living in the Wst, both in actual buying power, and by number of people affected.

As for the motive of the Left: their issue is with the fact that some of us are more driven, more visionary, and more able than others -- heck, they even resent the lucky for being lucky.

In other words, the Left's positions are, ultimately, motivated by envy and/or nihilism

Obviously one can hold a nihilisitc concept and not be a nihilist -- one has to extend the benfit of the doubt in such cases. Of course, once the proper proof and argument has been offered, adhering to wrong viewpoint is a bad sign.



chrondi said:


> conditions concerning labour prevail in some countries!),


Again, you're borrowing standards. I've pointed this fallacy out several times in this thread, yet you keep falling back on this point. If this is the foudation of your concerns, there's nothing to be concerned with.

Further, article after article has refuted this particular construct in two ways:

1)

Like it or not, those working for Western companies in less developed regions are doing far better than they did prior to said companies showing up.

2)

It is the West's unions, and their allies in intellectual and government circles, that are making this an issue -- not the people that are bettering their lives in the so-called sweatshops. (They've been joined by the Greens of late, but that's a whole other issue.)

I challenge anyone to point to a single government or charitable program anywhere that has improoved life as well as we see partial capitalism doing in S Korea, Japan, the emerging nations of Europe, or any other culture that had the courage to see the light.



chrondi said:


> In my view that is common sense and does not enter into any specific political agenda.!


Well, the Left does have a way of pretending that its views are common sense, even though the Left is in the minority in the USA, and, far more important, their views contradict easily verified facts.

Further, when you speak of what people "ought" to do or be aware of, you are most certainly talking politics.



chrondi said:


> Just open your eyes my friends, be brave and see the truth!


The truth is that at no point has "helping" achieved anything.

Those who want to thrive only need the freedom to do so. Those who don't want to thrive, or the few that can't for that matter, should have no claim on those who can thrive and have -- not through political force, not through guilt, not in any way.

Establish a world where the above paragraph is acknowledged fully, and worldwide prosperity will increase at the fastest possible rate.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

PBzeer said:


> painkiller - that presupposes anyone is worried about powerboaters liking us, and all them bikini babes are too worried about breaking a nail to handle a line.


They seem to handle my lines pretty well. Sadly in a negative fashion.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

tdw - I didn't mean your "line" of credit. <G>


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## donrr1 (Oct 25, 2002)

I'm gonna need a doober AND a shot of quervo to engage in this philanthropic thread. Alsas, I'm at work and have niether. 

Don


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## donrr1 (Oct 25, 2002)

BTW goose, other than the beard, me and you got alot in common 

Don


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## goose327 (Jun 11, 2001)

donrr1 said:


> BTW goose, other than the beard, me and you got alot in common
> 
> Don


LOL, ah, so you did read the Provisioning thread,,,,,,


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## RAGNAR (Feb 21, 2007)

PBzeer said:


> Britsailor - perhaps you could supply us with the solution to the problem. Lot's of people blather about the ills of the world, few have any real world solutions to the problems.


Who is this addressed to?


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## RAGNAR (Feb 21, 2007)

goose327 said:


> Not at all RAG, keep it comin'. You should write for a living. Just don't use so many 5 dollar words,,LOL I don't get'em(and people in third world countries can't afford'em).


Goose,

You know how it is: scratch a sailor, find one opinionated SOB.

Apppreciative of your support,

Ragnar


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## RAGNAR (Feb 21, 2007)

Britsailor said:


> Chrondi, ... Ever heard of the saying ' do'nt preach to the choir '..... I'd give up on these yanks if i was you your just wasting your time..


With all due respect:

If only...

The horrors of the 20th Century were caused by the idea that since someone thinks there is a problem somewhere, we must form a collective -- and while we have a collective, let's go looking for problems.

Fact is, the opposite has always been true.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Ragnar - I was referring to the propensity of the Liberal/Left to bemoan the inherent inequality of man, rather than to concentrate on providing an equality of opportunity, which is the only real test of equality. All other differences are variables and can not be equalized.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

chrondi said:


> Rightly said PBzeer!
> Before contemplating any solution, you have to acknowledge the problem. Seemingly, not many people have reached that point yet.


 Chrondi, do you really believe that we're all so out of touch with what's going on in the world that we don't know that there's poverty in the world? You haven't enlightened us. We haven't acknowledged anything new. I've known of the existence of poverty in the world ever since my mother told me to eat my dinner because the starving children in China didn't have enough food, and that was over 60 years ago.

If there's one thing we definitely don't need it is one more person telling us what we already know. What we really need is someone with the solution. All the great philosophers, economists, agrarians, sociologists, world leaders and other great minds throughout the entire history of mankind have tried to find a solution to poverty, and they've failed.

You apparently share the fantasy that many have about this country that we're all rich and we could solve all the problems of the world if only we weren't so stingy or stupid. The truth is that we have most of the same problems that you do. We have to keep our employers satisfied so we can pay our house payments, and car payments, and home improvement loans, and send our kids to school, and get their teeth fixed, and support our aging parents, and meet all our other family responsibilities, and, after that's done, most of us contribute to a variety of charitable causes. Throughout my lifetime, our government has sent huge amounts of aid, in the form of both food and money, to other countries, and we have defended them when necessary. Moreover, a substantial amount of money is contributed every year by private citizens in this country to help fight poverty in other countries. We've done our part.

If you can find a solution to the problem of world poverty, you will stand out as one of the greatest humanitarians in the history of the world. But, if your proposed solution starts from the proposition that you really can't do anything more to impact the problem, but we should divert our resources from the needs of our families so that we can solve world hunger, you're probably not going to get that humanitarian award.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Along the lines of walk the walk, if you're going to talk the talk. Oddly enough, the envior-monster Bush is the one with the eco-friendly home, while eco-guru Algore uses as much energy in a month as the average person does in a year for his home. Go figure.


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## RAGNAR (Feb 21, 2007)

chrondi said:


> I now see very encouraging signs: I read words like problem, symptoms and roots.


Problems happen to specific people. It is for them to resolve them, both for their own sense of worth, and for the sake of those who have nothing to do with the problem.



chrondi said:


> To those thinking that there may be major problems without any solution I would reply that the great progress of mankind along centuries of history has proved the opposite.


The great progress you sight has only come when individuals have been allowed to pursue their own interest. You seem to be calling for something else.



chrondi said:


> Sure there are solutions (in plural!) but not easy ones.


You'd have to show the problems and solutions in specific language. You've yet to do that.

Further, you'd have to explain why these problems are everyone's problems.



chrondi said:


> Start convincing people that the world is not sustainable with such imbalances and building a broad consensus against indifference to misery, hatred and war.


Again, what is out of balance?

What is it that you think those who are not indifferent can and ought to enact?

BTW: Where did this Right to Freedom From Misery come from? What of the misery of being weighed down by the problems of others, via guilt or political force?

Further, you're borrowing standards again: By what standard do you declare someone miserable? By what right do you inject yourself in that person's life?



chrondi said:


> It may take another generation before we realize that we humans along with the other living species are the crew of the unique ship called Earth.


But we're not. We are individual entities, and we need to structure our societies and philosophies accordingly.

Whenever the individual aspect has been ignored, darkness has followed.



chrondi said:


> My children or my children's children will live in a better world only if we improve what we inherited from our parents. .


What is that you're worried about?

Further, why are switching topics?



chrondi said:


> No, I'm not wasting my time and I'm not a wizard with the solutions ready in hand. But I keep hoping for a better future for EVERYBODY.


No, but you seem to think there's some sort of disaster coming. What are we talking about?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Chrondi-

One thing I'd like to point out about us Americans... Gordon Sinclair, the Canadian journalist had this to say way back in 1973. However, much of it is still very applicable today...



> This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
> 
> Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
> 
> ...




America may not be perfect, and I would argue that it is far from perfect...however, I would also say that even with the mistakes our country makes, like the less than ideal situation in Iraq... we do try to make things right and help where possible, which is far more than most countries can claim.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

PBzeer said:


> tdw - I didn't mean your "line" of credit. <G>


Not so much a line as a downward spiral !  Even a totally dumb blonde would have more sense than to handle that.


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## RAGNAR (Feb 21, 2007)

PBzeer said:


> Ragnar - I was referring to the propensity of the Liberal/Left to bemoan the inherent inequality of man, rather than to concentrate on providing an equality of opportunity, which is the only real test of equality. All other differences are variables and can not be equalized.


I'm with you, PB


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## donrr1 (Oct 25, 2002)

You've (or should I say Gordan Sinclair) said it all sailingdog, a couple of weeks ago I responded to a poll on a German nes website. The poll was asking readers what, if any possition the EU should take on what is happening in the Middle East. My response was 'anything other than the sideline stance it has at the moment'.

Don


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Don-

One of my favorite quotes is Edmund Burke's:



> _"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."_




Unfortunately, some countries have taken the stance that it isn't their problem, so why should they do anything about it. There are many things that we could let go by the wayside, but morally, ethically, politically or environmentally, we have an obligation to do something about it.

The world is too small and too fragile for us to go about not caring any longer. Pollution, war, terrorism, global warming, and many of the other threats that we now face do not respect national borders to any degree-they often do not distinguish between race, class, nationality. A car bomb really doesn't care who is next to it when it goes off...regardless of the intent of the maker.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Ok Chrondi,
I am in favor of poverty, war, starvation, and ignorance in general. I am not aware of ANY of these conditions existing in the world today. The other guys on here are alot smarter than me though, so just send all the info on the above topics to me direct. I really want to raise my awareness of these issues. Don't blame my parents or my culture. I have lived a very sheltered life. BTW, that fella who said you were Rip Van Winkle and you woke up in an eighth grade civics class was off base. You can't tell these guys anything, so just tell me. I'm starting to feel your pain.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Could someone please give me the cliff notes on this thread. I have come up for air from the pool of S*** the hot water heater granted me, and I do not have time to read the the FIFTEEN PAGES!!! that have been going on!!

Or, should I just go to the bulldog thread?

Gotta go!

(Deep breath. SPLASH.)

- CD

PS Just kidding.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

It's actually 31 pages of some very slanted discourse CD (on my screen anyway) . . . but, who's counting?


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## RAGNAR (Feb 21, 2007)

Cruisingdad said:


> Could someone please give me the cliff notes on this thread. I have come up for air from the pool of S*** the hot water heater granted me, and I do not have time to read the the FIFTEEN PAGES!!! that have been going on!!
> 
> <SNIP>


I hear the movie rights are being negotiated for as we type...


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

In keeping with the title of this thread, am I the only one that's noticed how little we hear about Iraq since the new General took over? It can't be going too bad, or it would be all over the media, so perhaps it's working as planned?


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## painkiller (Dec 20, 2006)

So what's this bulldog thread everybody keeps talking about? I looked but couldn't find it based on the thread titles.


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## painkiller (Dec 20, 2006)

PB,

Current Yahoo headlines say that Al-Qaeda stormed a jail in Mosul and freed 140 of their buddies. Not so good news.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Wasn't on the CNN site a moment ago, but I'm talking more than just one day anyway. The thread you're looking for is in the Cruising forum.


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