# Which keel sailboat for solo sailing?



## lya (10 mo ago)

I asked the same question on SA with no luck.

I have years of solo experience sailing my Sunfish. I think I did everything that could be done - and should've never been done - in that sailboat. Now, I want to upgrade to my first keel sailboat - again for solo sailing.

I've possibly checked out all the suitable sailboats in the market, but not being able try them firsthand, I pretty much wasted my time on the Internet. Checking out specs and looking at photos on websites, I'm going nowhere.

This summer, I might dump a whole bunch of money into a sailing club membership and get access to a J/24 fleet. Before I do that, I thought I should stop by here.

Thanks.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I will start by saying that how well any given design will work for you will largely depend on what you plan to do with the boat. In other words, a person who only wants to daysail single-hand would probably want a boat that is different from someone who only wants to race single-hand, vs. someone who only wants to overnight single-hand vs someone who only wants to do long voyages solo. Or the most unicorn of them all, a boat that can do all of the above. Some of what will be a good choice for you will also be dependent on your budget, where you sail, athleticism, and your own aesthetic tastes.

But the good news is that there are a lot of good boats out there that can be adapted to single-handed sailing, even if there are very few that left the factory set up to be perfect single-handers.

Without having the kind of information that would be suggested by in my second paragraph, I can only generalize about an ideal single-hander, but the members and i can probably suggest more specific models if you provide some details about how you plan to sail, where you plan to use the boat, and a general budget.

But to provide a quick general set of recommendations: (and I am sure that some experienced short-handers will disagree with some or all of these)
Fin keel​Counter balanced spade rudder​Tiller steered if under about 35 feet​Fractional rigged sloop​Displacement to Length (D/L) below 170​Sail Area to Displacement (SA/D) Around 22.​Ballast ratio larger than around 32% (for a deeper draft fin keel and greater for a shoal draft)​Overall displacement below 11,000 to 12,000 lbs​Ideally control lines and reefs run back to the cockpit.​
Beyond that details should be tailored to your sailing needs. I will note that I do a lot of single-handed day-sailing, cruising, and racing and have since the 1960's, so I warn you that some of this reflects my own tastes and how I choose to sail. Your mileage will vary.

Jeff


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## AndyL (Dec 1, 2019)

Check if the sailing club allows single handed sailing with their boats.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

Jeff_H said:


> I will start by saying that how well any given design will work for you will largely depend on what you plan to do with the boat. In other words, a person who only wants to daysail single-hand would probably want a boat that is different from someone who only wants to race single-hand, vs. someone who only wants to overnight single-hand vs someone who only wants to do long voyages solo. Or the most unicorn of them all, a boat that can do all of the above. Some of what will be a good choice for you will also be dependent on your budget, where you sail, athleticism, and your own aesthetic tastes.
> 
> But the good news is that there are a lot of good boats out there that can be adapted to single-handed sailing, even if there are very few that left the factory set up to be perfect single-handers.
> 
> ...


I had over a decade of Sunfish sailing fun in the Mediterranean Sea. That was the sailboat that I could get my hands on with my budget, and I did. I fixed it and sailed the heck out of it. I figured out things by myself. I am away from that heaven these days and got the sailing bug again from my old roommate here, far from the sea. The problem is, that's all I know about sailing.

I don't think I am someone who can do long voyages solo - maybe some years later, but certainly, not now.

I said solo as I started solo. I'll possibly be a solo sailor again. If I can meet folks and hang out with them, then why not? I'd say let's keep it solo for now and discover the options.

I'll be by the ocean starting this summer and found a sailing club there. I thought I could learn the ropes like that and what not, but then I realized I am going to be dumping lots of $$s that I could be using differently.

Well, I've never thought of overnight sailing, so I think I am just a solo day sailor. About racing, if there were a race and I were to own a sailboat, then okay, I guess - but I wouldn't buy a boat around the idea of racing. So, just like how I sailed the Sunfish, a casual day sailor is how I can describe myself. I saw the J/24s sailing around the Statue of Liberty and wondered if I could do the same; this should give an idea about where I'll sail - Newyork Harbor and such. The location may change, but I won't be crossing oceans anytime soon.

I'm 40, in good shape. Budget is no issue. I know Saffier 37 is a day sailer, and a beaten up but still sailing J22 is also a day sailer (orange vs apple here - a 37 would be a lot for me anyhow). I think you can guess which one I'll go with - A clue, I am cheap. Nevertheless, I am open for learning about all.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

AndyL said:


> Check if the sailing club allows single handed sailing with their boats.


Probably, not. If I join the club, I think I'll be part of a team. I wouldn't complain for the learning phase.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

Jeff_H said:


> Fin keel​Counter balanced spade rudder​Tiller steered if under about 35 feet​Fractional rigged sloop​Length to displacement (L/D) below 170​Sail Area to Displacement (L/D)​Ballast ratio larger than around 32% (for a deeper draft fin keel and greater for a shoal draft)​Overall displacement below 11,000 to 12,000 lbs​Ideally control lines and reefs run back to the cockpit.​


Jeff,

This is a great reference. I'll keep it in reach any time I am in the market. Sail Area to Displacement (L/D) is not there though.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

Jeff_H said:


> ...about how you plan to sail, where you plan to use the boat
> Beyond that details should be tailored to your sailing needs.


The next step from my Sunfish, onto the first keel sailboat. A sailboat with ballast. Simple and... Simple.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I have done thousands of miles single handed coastal and offshore.
Of course you want a strong boat boat which if a "good sailer"... see JeffH's post.
I would also recommend:
roller furling head sail
adjustable pole for genny
fractional rig or ketch
anchor sail
removable inner stay for storm jib
jack lines
anchor locker w/ deck access that is isolated from cabin
spare anchor (or two)
200' chain for anchor
electric windlass w/ foot switches and cockpit remote switches for up and down
solid vang
full battened mainsail w/ Dutchman or lazy jacks
minimum 2 plotters
tablet or laptop
radar
fixed and hand held VHF
SSB radio
below decks autopilot
stowable dink 
life raft
dodger and bimini (or cockpit cover when anchored
large batts
alt charging (solar)
wheel steering & emergency tiller
large dry cockpit you can "stretch out" in
galley close to companionway
forward dash mounted instruments
cockpit cushions
lee board(s)
weather clothes for cockpit
extra fuel and water 
water maker
refrigeration (I like engine drive reduces the need for lots of solar and wind
Lots of spares: connectors, line, shackles, clamps, impellers, filters, fuses, bulbs, pumps, engine oil
wire, hose,plywood, misc wood etc.
lots of tools and spare tools,
ditch bag


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## lya (10 mo ago)

SanderO said:


> I have done thousands of miles single handed coastal and offshore.
> Of course you want a strong boat boat which if a "good sailer"... see JeffH's post.
> I would also recommend:
> roller furling head sail
> ...


This is way advanced for my current sailing abilities. Something tells me, one day, in the far future, I will be searching for this comment though. I'm just trying to figure out my next step after my Sunfish. A Sunfish with ballast let's say .


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Lya, If you are in the NYC area, the J-24's that you saw, likely either belonged to the NY sailing school/club if they were red hulls, or the True North Sailing school/club ( Jersey City) if they were white hulled. Rick at True North runs a club model, where you pay an annual fee and have access to the boats. ( J-24's ) I'm not sure how NY runs. True North requires that one of the members on board is approved by them to be a " Captain" but everyone gets a turn at the helm. You can work your way up to Captain status by eventually demonstrating your skill level. His boats were usually available to club members after 2 p.m. ( which are when the better winds are anyway) 

If I didn't already own a boat, I thought it was a good model for a couple of reasons. 1.) I thought the pricing was decent 2.) you get to learn from experienced captains 3.) you get to meet other sailors. and lastly, The cost of keeping and maintaining your own Keelboat in NY Harbor is going to be much much greater than joining a club. I think it would be a good first step for you just getting back into sailing. 

The next suggestion, would be to show up on race nights at a club and see who's looking for crew. Or post a card on a board, that you'd be willing to crew. I'm not sure, what the racing scene is on the Hudson At the moment, Rick could fill you in. You could also grab a ferry over to the Atlantic Highlands where they race every Wednesday night. 

Another thing for you to look into, is obtaining a Boating Safety Certificate in your state of residence. I'm not up to speed on NY rules ( they had been pretty lax in the past) N.J. requires the operator possess a Boating Safety Certificate if you operate a motorized vessel ( which the J-24's on the Hudson are) Boat U.S offers an online course, and then you schedule an exam. I'm pretty sure the certificates are reciprocal. NY/NJ 

Just a few thoughts for you to ponder.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

You would it not be dumping IE wasting money for a Sailing Club or even sailing lessons.

You will get hundreds of answers here 

I'm partial to wheel steering 
years ago I had a hunter 23 swing Keel boat tiller steered. TOO small! Then I graduated within a year up to an ODay30. Finn Keel wheel steering.

I now have a hunter 34
Wheel steering fin Keel. not single-handing it hasn't even crossed my mind, However, I'm starting to realize my age is starting to affect my abilities. 

Think about what you actually want to do, people sleep in canoes so it isn't about sailing overnight, because most people anchor at night except for the really Hardy and those people that want to sail at night. 

Single-handing larger and larger boats is not so much about muscles as it is about logic applied with knowledge and use of mechanical advantage. 
And, you already know how to sail, the principles are the same,


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Sometimes watching instead of doing helps


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Here's another little bit more romantic it isn't all about adrenaline


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Lya. With nothing showing on your profile, we have no idea where you are now or what might be suitable. Are you still in the Med? Spain?... France?... Italy?... Greece?... Turkey?... Israel?... Egypt?... Libya?... Tunisia...? Morocco? It's a big place. What sort of "solo" sailing are you looking to do? Racing? People might point you towards a Finn, though it's not a keelboat. How much do you weigh? Cruising? A Hereshoff Doughdish might be just the thing. But it's not readily available outside of Massachusetts. Or are you planning to go across the Atlantic singlehanded? We need more information in order to be able to be more helpful.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I thought he said he would be sailing around NY harbor in the end of post # 4. but, generally pretty vague on details. So who knows.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I would consider most small keel boats to be a down grade in skill level from a Sunfish. Keels on small sailboats are like training wheels on a bicycle. Why go that direction if you already know how to balance without them.

Unless you expect to be spending several nights on board, the best solution might be a more capable dinghy, beach cat or small trimaran.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I was in the same boat as you (sorry about that): moving from a Sunny to a keel boat. I wanted to be able to single-hand day sail and take my family and friends out for joy rides. I decided to go with a boat that was between 19 and 24 feet; I wanted the biggest cockpit available, and I liked the idea of a centerboard. And for the Admiral: the head would hopefully be behind a door.

The Oday 23 fit the bill very well: big cockpit, centerboard with a stub keel (no running aground for me!), and big bonus: the head was behind a door, not out in the open cabin.

Except for the head/door issue, there are plenty of boats that fit the bill: the Catalina 22 is at the head of the list; plentiful, cheap, good value, active owner's group, supportive manufacturer, forgiving and fun sailer. Another strong contender for me was the Cape Dory Typhoon. Easily the best looking option; also inexpensive. But not nearly as versatile a sailer; she needs some breeze to get up and go. And very tender; not something the Admiral appreciated. The Oday 22 and 222 are also options, as is the J24.

Whatever you choose, one must-have for the solo sailor: roller furling. I did a few years with my Oday with a hank on jib. But when I installed roller furling, I couldn't believe how much of a difference it made in my confidence and comfort. No more trips to the foredeck while by myself.

If you are in NYC, you should definitely avail yourself of the sailing club. Keeping a boat in the city is just outlandishly expensive. If you have a car, you can drive yourself to City Island, Long Island or NJ where it becomes somewhat less expensive. But that kind of travel has it's own issues.


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## TimBordelon (10 mo ago)

I think people pay attention to the power of engine.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

Wow! Thanks everyone. Phew!

All I would like to know is what is logically next after a long, long Sunfish phase, and I've realized maybe there is not a definite answer to that query. You gentlemen are right, I should've given more details if I want a solution to my situation.

Without getting into too many specifics, here is where I am lost. At this point of my life, I don't want that much of a wet experience. I am still seeking a small sailboat, so some water here and there splashing on my face or whatnot will happen, but I, at least, don't want to find my lazy middle-aged butt in water every ten to fifteen minutes. So, I want to learn about small simple keel sailboats that can sail at places like Tampa Bay or Biscayne Bay or around NY Harbor. I'm not looking for galleys, inboard diesels, and such. ---- A small keel day sailer, a step up from Sunfish, and that can handle the waters I listed here. This is what I want to learn without getting into too many details. What I know is what I did with my old Sunfish, what I read online, and what my ex-roommate preached at me.

About where I am... I am faraway from ocean nowadays, but I will be in Jersey City in Summer. I don't know if it will be a permanent gig or if I will be able to have a schedule that can fit the yacht clubs' schedules. After summer, what I know is, I will be somehow by the ocean in the East Coast. I gave vague background info as I, myself, don't know what the future holds for me either.

I don't want to respond to everyone who commented, as it'll only complicate the thread. I would like you to know that I read your comments and even conducted a little research about the suggestions you had made. 

Jeff, I still am waiting for the Sail Area to Displacement (L/D) value. 

Thanks to all.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

tempest said:


> If you are in the NYC area, the J-24's that you saw, likely either belonged to the NY sailing school/club if they were red hulls, or the True North Sailing school/club ( Jersey City) if they were white hulled.


Manhattan sailing club, maybe?


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## lya (10 mo ago)

deniseO30 said:


> Sometimes watching instead of doing helps


 Sorry, but nowhere in the Universe compares to the Mediterranean Sea when it comes to sailing a Sunfish.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

deniseO30 said:


> Here's another little bit more romantic it isn't all about adrenaline


Do you think this might be what I am looking for?


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## lya (10 mo ago)

Arcb said:


> I would consider most small keel boats to be a down grade in skill level from a Sunfish. Keels on small sailboats are like training wheels on a bicycle. Why go that direction if you already know how to balance without them.
> 
> Unless you expect to be spending several nights on board, the best solution might be a more capable dinghy, beach cat or small trimaran.


If I were living by the Mediterranean Sea, I would certainly upgrade to a Hobie 16 despite how wet it would be. I know conflicts with my current plans, but still...


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## lya (10 mo ago)

mstern said:


> If you are in NYC, you should definitely avail yourself of the sailing club. Keeping a boat in the city is just outlandishly expensive. If you have a car, you can drive yourself to City Island, Long Island or NJ where it becomes somewhat less expensive. But that kind of travel has it's own issues.


I've just researched the prices, you're right, the sailing clubs actually lets people save money. Well, I ended up responding to all.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

I summarized the query. If we keep getting lost in the details, I think it will disappoint the people who wants to help.

Here is the question:
A small keel day sailer, a step up from Sunfish, and that can handle the waters like Tampa Bay or Biscayne Bay or around NY Harbor or...


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

small keel boats are not that small . most small boats are built to be easy to launch and rig from a trailer, so they are not keel boats keel boats are not as easy to launch and step the mast. how often will you want to sail. most important question is are you going to trailer launch on a ramp each time you sail or keep it at a dock? where will the boat be stored when not in use. about what size boat are you thinking and what kind of a budget.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

overbored said:


> small keel boats are not that small . most small boats are built to be easy to launch and rig from a trailer, so they are not keel boats keel boats are not as easy to launch and step the mast. how often will you want to sail. most important question is are you going to trailer launch on a ramp each time you sail or keep it at a dock? where will the boat be stored when not in use. about what size boat are you thinking and what kind of a budget.


Now, this was helpful.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I think I'll take it from here and figure out myself.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

here is one of my favorites Precision 185, Well-Done Daysailing Performer there is one on Yacht world for $3500 it has a weighted centerboard so it is easy to trailer launch and still has some ballast weight in the centerboard. very fun boat.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

2005 Precision 185 Daysailer for sale - YachtWorld here is a fixed keel model. harder to launch but could be kept at a dock which is the way i would go. launch every time sucks and you will find you use the boat less.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

overbored said:


> here is one of my favorites Precision 185, Well-Done Daysailing Performer there is one on Yacht world for $3500 it has a weighted centerboard so it is easy to trailer launch and still has some ballast weight in the centerboard. very fun boat.


Thank you. I like it.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

overbored said:


> launch every time sucks and you will find you use the boat less.


Agreed. It was easy with Sunfish, but with a heavy boat, I don't know. If I buy, I will need a cheap dock.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I think you may be getting hung up on the words a day sailer, it's really just a term not necessarily about the overall design of a boat because a daysailer can be used as a cruiser, just as a keel boat can be used for day sailing.

Also keep in mind design parameters as the water gets larger there certain Necessities because an open boat on Open Water equals big trouble but can be a lot of fun although it can be quite wet.

There is also a reason there is a cabin IE cuddy cabin it's not so much about the comfort which is nice to have if you need to duck out of the weather and drop anchor but it also gives the boat more advantage on Open Water making it less likely to sink because, the cabin can keep the water from flooding the boat unless of course you leave it wide open. 

y
You will probably want something and it 20 or 25 ft range for Long Island Sound maybe even the Hudson river which has very strong current which means a motor most of the time.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I went from Sunfish, to Capri 14.2 centerboard, to Capri 22 keelboat, to Capri 25, to S2 7.9, to Wavelength 24, to C&C 32, each one I have sailed solo, and each has positives and negatives to sailing solo. I've raced and cruised each.

I have relied heavily on suggestions from Jeff, and he's not yet steered me wrong. Save for my present choice of the C&C, where he suggested I'd be happier with a tiller steer, and frankly I enjoy the wheel more. Its a difference with little distinction of course, I have molded each boat to work with my style of sailing, and sailing and racing solo. I don't do long passages in my boat. I'm inland, so that doesn't really happen. I would not hesitate to take my present boat for long weekends away from a marina though, and if the opportunity presented itself, I'd take it in bigger water.

Much to the chagrin of my local sailing club, my racing of the boat, even solo has been rather successful too.

Get what you want, and make it work is all I say. You will develop your own criteria for success.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

deniseO30 said:


> I think you may be getting hung up on the words a day sailer,
> ....
> You will probably want something and it 20 or 25 ft range for Long Island Sound...


I think so too.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

SHNOOL said:


> I went from Sunfish, to Capri 14.2 centerboard, to Capri 22 keelboat, to Capri 25, to S2 7.9, to Wavelength 24, to C&C 32, each one I have sailed solo, and each has positives and negatives to sailing solo. I've raced and cruised each.


Following your footpath.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

lya said:


> Jeff, I still am waiting for the Sail Area to Displacement (L/D) value.
> 
> Thanks to all.


I am sorry, I edited my post above to to fill in some blanks and correct some typos.

Here's the info...
But to provide a quick general set of recommendations: (and I am sure that some experienced short-handers will disagree with some or all of these)
Fin keel
Counter balanced spade rudder
Tiller steered if under about 35 feet
Fractional rigged sloop
Displacement to Length (D/L) below 170
Sail Area to Displacement (SA/D) Around 22.
Ballast ratio larger than around 32% (for a deeper draft fin keel and greater for a shoal draft)
Overall displacement below 11,000 to 12,000 lbs
Ideally control lines and reefs run back to the cockpit.

Jeff


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## lya (10 mo ago)

Jeff_H said:


> I am sorry, I edited my post above to correct to fill in some blanks and correct some typos.
> 
> Here's the info...
> But to provide a quick general set of recommendations: (and I am sure that some experienced short-handers will disagree with some or all of these)
> ...


Actually, you updated earlier, but I noticed it after commenting. 
Thank you.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Yes, Manhattan Sailing School. and if you're in Jersey City for the summer, True North is in the Newport area. 

It's starting to sound like you want a trailerable boat. If you're moving around from NYC to Tampa Bay etc. But that's another conversation.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

tempest said:


> Yes, Manhattan Sailing School. and if you're in Jersey City for the summer, True North is in the Newport area.
> 
> It's starting to sound like you want a trailerable boat. If you're moving around from NYC to Tampa Bay etc. But that's another conversation.


Maybe, I should've waited until I knew the future plans. Now, I understand that the keel boat decision is not like the dinghy decision; it all depends on the situation... But this helped. I, at least, learned about Jeff's criteria. For NJ & NY, the sailing clubs make sense now - unless you have money to burn.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

tempest said:


> Yes, Manhattan Sailing School.


Seems like they also have Sunfishes. Good idea to fall into that water there?


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

lya said:


> Seems like they also have Sunfishes. Good idea to fall into that water there?


Not unless you are an Olympic Swimmer. ;-)


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## lya (10 mo ago)

tempest said:


> Not unless you are an Olympic Swimmer. ;-)


I actually swim like a seal. I was more worried about the cleanness of the water.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

NY Harbor is getting so clean that the wooden piers are getting eaten away by borers -- something that never used to happen. The Critters Doing $114 Million in Damage to Brooklyn’s Piers (Published 2019)

Oyster beds are being cultivated and fish are returning too:

Why New York harbor is the cleanest it’s been in 110 years


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## lya (10 mo ago)

paulk said:


> NY Harbor is getting so clean that the wooden piers are getting eaten away by borers -- something that never used to happen. The Critters Doing $114 Million in Damage to Brooklyn’s Piers (Published 2019)
> 
> Oyster beds are being cultivated and fish are returning too:
> 
> Why New York harbor is the cleanest it’s been in 110 years


Awesome.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

Jeff_H said:


> I will start by saying that how well any given design will work for you will largely depend on what you plan to do with the boat. In other words, a person who only wants to daysail single-hand would probably want a boat that is different from someone who only wants to race single-hand, vs. someone who only wants to overnight single-hand vs someone who only wants to do long voyages solo. Or the most unicorn of them all, a boat that can do all of the above. Some of what will be a good choice for you will also be dependent on your budget, where you sail, athleticism, and your own aesthetic tastes.
> 
> But the good news is that there are a lot of good boats out there that can be adapted to single-handed sailing, even if there are very few that left the factory set up to be perfect single-handers.
> 
> ...


Jeff, based on your criteria, could you please share a list of small sailboats for Tampa Bay and the Gulf of Mexico - and also another list, for NY Harbor? Thank you.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

lya said:


> Jeff, based on your criteria, could you please share a list of small sailboats for Tampa Bay and the Gulf of Mexico - and also another list, for NY Harbor? Thank you.


I will start with a general note. Scanning the suggestions above, you have already gotten a lot of really good input. I especially like the suggestion that you consider a boat club that allows you to use their boats, especially in an expensive venue like New York.

Still speaking generally, I understand that beginning the boat selection process can feel overwhelming. There are so many options out there, and it can seem hard to winnow them down to a manageable number on your list. Even for a very knowledgeable sailor, asking "What boat should I buy?" can feel like asking "how long is a piece of string?" Asking "what boat should I buy?" on a webpage like this is more likely to tell you more about the people who answer the question than it perhaps helps you in crystalizing your decision. (I include myself in this comment because, even though I try to put myself in the other person's shoes, I admit that my answers, none the less, often are still influenced by my own personal preferences.)

For better or worse, narrowing your options probably needs to start by asking the questions that begin to define what is most important to you personally.
How important is seaworthiness?
How important is ease of handling?
How important is comfort?
What amenities do you want or need?
How important is it whether this boat is a good platform to learn to sail well?
How important is performance?
Is there some particular aesthetic that appeals to you personally?

In recommending the list of boats below, it is important to understand that these boats are biased towards Tampa Bay and the Gulf of Mexico. I would pick a different group of boats for NY harbor. I haven't sailed there in over 50 years, but New York Harbor was a challenging place to sail, and not particularly an enjoyable one for me. There was a lot of heavy commercial traffic, the winds were spotty, shifty and tricky, and there could be wicked currents, chop, and wakes. Some of that may have changed, but the winds and currents, would not.

There is a sailing expression, "different horses for different courses ". What that means in other words is that certain boats are better for different sailing conditions and others are worse. Some are better for different uses and some are not so good. For example, if you are planning to sail in New York Harbor or Long Island Sound, (by contrast, LIS an extremely nice place to sail) draft is much less of an issue than Tampa Bay, but New York Harbor's tougher conditions are a more significant issue. So, almost all the centerboard boats would be off the list and a different set of options would take their place. Also some boats are easy to find in Florida while others are more readily available in the Mid-Atlantic states. Additionally the boats that I would recommend for NYC would probably be a little longer in length than I would recommend for Tampa Bay.

With regards to Tampa Bay, Tampa Bay is lovely. I sailed out of Sarasota for quite a few years (back in the 1970's and early 1980's) and raced on Tampa Bay on occasion. Tampa Bay tends to have a mix of very light winds (summer and late spring) with decent winds in between. It can get very choppy at times and thunder storms can come up pretty suddenly but are usually visible a distance off. Tampa Bay and its surrounds also has a lot of shallow areas. The rule of thumb down there was that a draft of around 4 feet or so was considered a practical limit. A boat with a swing keel or lift keel will let you go more places. Under no circumstances would I recommend a wing keel.

Here is where bias comes in...If this was my boat, I personally would want a head, an ice chest, a place to lie down, and a place to heat up a light meal. But those are all your call. I would definitely want an outboard motor to get me home when the wind died.

Anyway here is a quick list of small boats that I think would work well on Tampa Bay. I tried to pick boats that might be found down there at affordable prices. I am sure I missed quite a few. They are in alphabetical order to make it easier to look them up on SailBoatdata.com.

Good hunting,
Jeff

Alerion Express 20- Pricy but very well built and sail well.
Balboa 20- Good sailing ability for a swing keel, but build quality was not on the high side.
Bucanneer 220-US22: Bucanneer’s get slammed a lot but these boats sailed well and can be bought cheaply.
Catalina 22-very common and typically affordable. These were mid-level trailerables; neither the best or the worst.
Grampian Classic 22- I owned one these and absolutely loved the boat. It sails well, is easy to handle single hand and was pretty quick. There was room for a porta-potty and had a big cockpit. It had full floatation, but the only negative was that it did not have a self-bailing cockpit. It is also slightly on the deep side for Tampa bay but not deadly so.
Cal 21- These were well built for their day and sail well
Captiva 240- These were built down there. They are a keel-centerboard boat that is pretty well constructed. The fractional rig and higher SA/Disp make them a good boat for down there and for short-handing since you don’t need overlapping jibs.
Farr 727- Northstar 727- These 23 footers sail exceptionally well and are quite seaworthy. They make great single-handers. There were a couple at the Sarasota Sailing Squadron. They are a little deep.
First 210 and Beneteau 211 (Beneteau)- These 21 footers are well built and cleverly detailed. They sail well across a broad range of conditions.
First 235- A bigger version of the 210. The same comments apply.
First Class 7 (Beneteau) These 22 footers are very cool boats all around. They are pretty rare but do come up for sale from time to time. That can be a little harder to handle but are quite fast.
FUN (Formula One in French F’Un) These were exceptionally well built and clever designs They sail very well for their day. A bunch were brought in and/or built in the states, but there doesn’t seem to be many still sailing.
Harbor 20 (Schock)- These are nice little boats but are a little expensive for what they are and probably not common down there.
Holder 20- These Hobie built boats were really fun boats to sail, but took some skill since they had a lot of sail area and not much ballast. It is kind of like sailing a Sunfish since you need to pay attention and generally know what you are doing.
Irwin Min-ton (Irwin 20)- These were built in Clearwater and were pretty nice little boats for the day.
J-22- I raced one of these for almost 20 years and really get a kick out of them. But they are a little deep draft and can be a real handful in a breeze. I would rig a downhaul on the jib so I could douse it if the wind came up, and sail under the mainsail alone. (They do that well) Then again any sub-25 footer will be tough in heavier going.
Laguna 22- Windrose 22: Your average white bread boat but a step up design wise.
Mirage 236: These were built in Gainesville, Florida and was available with either a fixed keel or a drop keel. They sail well and were sturdy, but crudely built.
Mirage 5.5: Same as above these were built in Gainesville, Florida and was available with either a fixed keel or a drop keel. They sail well and were sturdy, but crudely built.
Morgan 22- These are old school keel centerboards that were built in Largo Florida and would be a good choice for Tampa Bay. Not the absolute best single-hander.
Morgan 24, Morgan 25- essentially the same boat. These are even more old school than the Morgan 22 but still really solid boats for their day with no bad habits.
Northstar 22: These were well built Canadian boats. Pretty rare in the states but you do occasionally see them for sale.
Oday 22: These were decent middle of the road, white bread sort of boats. I had use of one in Savannah and taught the owner how to sail on her. There was a fractional rigged and a masthead rigged version. The masthead rig does better in light air but the fractional rig is easier to single-hand.
Pearson 22: Nice old school boats that are more common in New England
Precision 21 and Precision 23: These were built in Palmetto Fl. The build quality seemed good, and the fractional rig was convenient.
Ranger 23: Probably my favorite boat of this size and period, but a little short on sail area so they depend on overlapping jibs which is not as convenient for short-handing.
Rodgers 24: similar to the Captiva 24. Nice little boats if you can find one.
San Juan 21: These used to be common as dirt in that area. These are good all around boats but by now they could be seriously beat to death.
Santana 23D: These were exceptionally good sailers and a lot of fun to sail. They are also good race boats for that era.
Sonar 23: These are lovely daysailer/racers. I really love these boats. But they may be too deep for Tampa Bay and would be rare down there.


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## lya (10 mo ago)

Jeff_H said:


> I will start with a general note. Scanning the suggestions above, you have already gotten a lot of really good input. I especially like the suggestion that you consider a boat club that allows you to use their boats, especially in an expensive venue like New York.
> 
> Still speaking generally, I understand that beginning the boat selection process can feel overwhelming. There are so many options out there, and it can seem hard to winnow them down to a manageable number on your list. Even for a very knowledgeable sailor, asking "What boat should I buy?" can feel like asking "how long is a piece of string?" Asking "what boat should I buy?" on a webpage like this is more likely to tell you more about the people who answer the question than it perhaps helps you in crystalizing your decision. (I include myself in this comment because, even though I try to put myself in the other person's shoes, I admit that my answers, none the less, often are still influenced by my own personal preferences.)
> 
> ...


Jeff,

This is gold. Thank you.

Sailing club in NY Harbor - Sunfish, J/24, and Atlantic or Sheilds (I don't know which one).

For waters like Tampa Bay, Alerion 20. She looks like a gentleman's sailboat. I like that style.

Jeff and the Sailnet community, thank you again. I learned a lot.


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## NYL (10 mo ago)

Jeff_H,
Long time lurker here, and a fan. I am interested in your list for New York Harbor and Long Island Sound (if you have time). Plenty of sailing clubs there with boats like J24 and Catalina 22.


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