# What I learned at the Annapolis Boat Show



## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

We just got back from our trip out east. We were at the boat show on Thursday, for VIP day, and Friday, for Take The Wheel. We didn't make the wine and cheese event afterward, choosing instead to look at the boats again.

What I learned:
1. This is a real boat show! Tons better than the Strictly Sail show in Chicago!
2. If you are shopping for a boat, pay the little extra and go on VIP day on Thursday. The Friday crowds seemed about double what they were on Thursday and we got to see practically every boat we wanted to see.
3. When you return to a boat for a second look, don't be surprised if the sales person recognizes you, even with all the people who tour the boats. 
4. Sabre makes a beautiful boat!
5. Painkillers have medicinal value, besides killing pain. :laugher And it seemed the drink of choice for the other sailors in attendance!
6. Sailors are still some of the friendliest, most down to earth people on the planet. 
7. Being there was like curing homesickness. I didn't realize how much I missed the water. I didn't want to leave!
8. The Chesapeake is a very shallow bay! I thought we could just go out and sail once we left the dock, until we ran aground right in the middle of the bay. 
9. If you are planning to buy a boat, do a sea trial first. A sailboat is not a sailboat is not a sailboat. They all have their subtle differences that may mean a lot to you.
10. I am not a cat person.
11. I need to figure out how to spend more time sailing and less time dreaming about it!


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

Glad to see you had a great time and the pain killers help ease the sore pains! For us sailors it is the greatest show on earth.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

I forgot:

12. Dual helms are cool looking but unless you have a big boat or a beamy boat, a single helm seems to work just fine.
13. If you have been looking at magazine ads for your new boat, you will probably be disappointed once you set foot on them at the show.
14. Refrigeration technology has come a long way and has finally gotten to that point where I found myself saying, "Now that's a nice system!" "Now that's a nice setup!"
15. Air conditioning in a sailboat no longer creates shocked responses. 
16. Electronic navigation is wonderful but I wonder how many sailors know paper chart navigation or how to use a sextant? To me, the latter is like having a hand pump in the bilge.

Since going to the show I feel like I'm part of the sailing community again. It's good to be home. Now I just need a place of my own.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Another one:
17. Electric winches, while really awesome, just seem wrong! Are you really sailing when you just have to push a button to trim the sails?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

JulieMor said:


> Another one:
> 17. Electric winches, while really awesome, just seem wrong! Are you really sailing when you just have to push a button to trim the sails?


Yeah that's what I thought too! But recently my Brother in Law installed them on his 1940's vintage 45' yacht, because he is getting older, and so are his buddies. (but not his wife, she is still young as ever )

Considering he has done 36 Sydney-Hobarts, and the America's Cup, I think we can cut him some slack and let him have his electric winches!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JulieMor said:


> Another one:
> 17. Electric winches, while really awesome, just seem wrong! Are you really sailing when you just have to push a button to trim the sails?


No.


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## Marcel D (Apr 15, 2012)

Julie we went to a boat show just last year and came home with a nice new Beneteau 34. We were not planing to buy a new boat but it happened. Quite happy with our purchase as we were on a Beneteau First 285, a little cramped with me and my wife and a 3 and 5 year old on her. This was a great year for cruising we had heat off the dock refrigeration and an anchor windlass. Not to mention all of that extra room, we played board games with the kids, hosted dinner parties and the rest. Buying a new boat is an exiciting time enjoy it.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

JulieMor said:


> Another one:
> 17. Electric winches, while really awesome, just seem wrong! Are you really sailing when you just have to push a button to trim the sails?





SloopJonB said:


> No.


Really.... 

Well...... I remember what I said long ago. What kind of moron needs a TV remote control? And 35 years later, I asked the car salesman why would anyone needs a butt warmer. Now no one in my family wants to drive a car without a butt warmer.

Trust me, if you have sailed on a boat with electric winches, you would not want to do without it. Main halyard electric winch is a must. Hey call me sissy.

I am just sayin'


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Julie,
You need a boat.
If you can afford a brand new boat then good for you!
The boating community is generally of a pretty outgoing sort.


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## groggy (Aug 18, 2011)

JulieMor said:


> Another one:
> 17. Electric winches, while really awesome, just seem wrong! Are you really sailing when you just have to push a button to trim the sails?


proper trim is the goal, regardless of how you move the sail.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

JulieMor said:


> Another one:
> 17. Electric winches, while really awesome, just seem wrong! Are you really sailing when you just have to push a button to trim the sails?


Personally I think if you are using winches you aren't really sailing. What ever happened to using block and tackle to trim sails.

On the other hand we just added an electric halyard winch. It makes day sailing a breeze. Much less work, so I don't mind going sailing for shorter periods of time... Anything that means I get to have more time on the water is a good thing in my world.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I don't get it! Electric halyard winch? Seems like a waste of money to me! Hoisting sail is far easier than grinding in a genoa, and you only have to do it once! The only thing I ever use the halyard winch for is tensioning!

I guess it might be different on a 50 footer, but if you are under 40' and you need a winch to hoist your mainsail, you've got some friction to deal with!


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Marcel D said:


> Julie we went to a boat show just last year and came home with a nice new Beneteau 34. We were not planing to buy a new boat but it happened. Quite happy with our purchase as we were on a Beneteau First 285, a little cramped with me and my wife and a 3 and 5 year old on her. This was a great year for cruising we had heat off the dock refrigeration and an anchor windlass. Not to mention all of that extra room, we played board games with the kids, hosted dinner parties and the rest. Buying a new boat is an exiciting time enjoy it.


Yes boat shows would definitely be more fun if I had a wad of cash to spend on a new boat! As it is, I just get depressed looking at all the beautiful boats that I can't have!


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

SchockT said:


> Yes boat shows would definitely be more fun if I had a wad of cash to spend on a new boat! As it is, I just get depressed looking at all the beautiful boats that I can't have!


I decided the boat show would only depress me since we currently don't have cash to spare for so much as a boathook. 

We stayed home and worked on some projects around the house. I'm now almost done with our spring home maintenance checklist.

What? -- Spring is long gone? Well, I guess home chores tend to get deferred when you have a sailboat. Rather than look at how far behind I am, I choose to just look at it as being ahead of the game for next spring. :laugher


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

When we went out on the Hylas and the crew trimmed the genny by pushing a button, it was really weird to me. All those years I spent cranking winches by hand, all those calories burned, and all you have to do today is push a button? But I instantly knew that I'd never complain if I had that on my boat. 

Back in my racing days, a rather inexperienced crew member wanted to take the helm and then proceeded to tack about every 100 yards. Finally I had to tell him to stop, so exhausted from cranking the winches I could barely catch my breath. I thought about that when I saw the crew first push that button. I think I could get used to that. 

Back home, I'm finding a renewed enthusiasm to fulfill my dream of buying a boat. But I can't get back in the groove here to get my house ready for putting it on the market. My body may be back home but my heart and mind are still on the water.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

JulieMor said:


> I forgot:
> 
> 16. Electronic navigation is wonderful but I wonder how many sailors know paper chart navigation or how to use a sextant? To me, the latter is like having a hand pump in the bilge.


That is a very good observation. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

JulieMor said:


> Back in my racing days, a rather inexperienced crew member wanted to take the helm and then proceeded to tack about every 100 yards. Finally I had to tell him to stop, so exhausted from cranking the winches I could barely catch my breath. I thought about that when I saw the crew first push that button. I think I could get used to that.


Haha, I can relate that.

Once in the middle of the Ocean a few hundred NM from land in the middle of the night under the moon lit sky, the captain called for tack. We ended up tacking every 10 mins. After the fifth time, I asked what we were doing. He said he tried to avoid the passing shower.  It made the matter worse, a few times the jib got caught on the staysail that I had to get out there to fix it. .

May be that is why sailing solo is the best. There is "Nobody to blame except yourself and whatever happens in the boat stays in the boat.... Shhhhh
hahahah


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## boz86 (May 17, 2012)

JulieMor said:


> 2. If you are shopping for a boat, pay the little extra and go on VIP day on Thursday. The Friday crowds seemed about double what they were on Thursday and we got to see practically every boat we wanted to see.


Saturday's crowds were worse than Friday's.

I noticed new boats looked nice, but we like having not having a boat payment. OTOH, it's either money or labor, all about choices


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JulieMor said:


> 16. Electronic navigation is wonderful but I wonder how many sailors know paper chart navigation or how to use a sextant? To me, the latter is like having a hand pump in the bilge.


I don't find using paper charts really any different than a plotter, just far less convenient.

As to sextants, I used to think that way - it would be crazy to go offshore without one - but two things changed my mind. First was the Pardey's writing about their 45 day trip from Japan to Victoria, B.C. They only got two questionable sights through overcast the whole way. The second was a friend who sailed from here to S.F. - they NEVER got a sight. They had to dead reckon the whole trip, including when the owner didn't bother to keep a log on his shifts.

Both of them hit their goals pretty well dead on. My friend said he'd go with a good plotter and backup handhelds and I think he has a point.


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## Serendipitous (Nov 19, 2010)

I concur with number 4!! I also agree that Saturday was more crowded than Friday. And it also had a lot more children.


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## Rezz (Oct 12, 2012)

I thought the crowds were a bit worse than this year. So much so that my other half just got fed up and we went up Main St for most of the afternoon and wandered around the sights. 

Next year - VIP day for me. That way I can hopefully see most of the boats without worry or hassle.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Monday was the best day


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

We seek out the bad-weather days, really keeps the crowds down so you can talk to vendors uninterrupted and explore boats. Bad weather Mondays are the best of all!


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## juliekristine (Aug 17, 2010)

For some reason, I thought it was Thursday to Sunday only?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

MOnday is the best day to go to get deal from all the purveyors. They dont want to have to pack and their stuff back. Some of the best deep discounts I have gotten were on Mondays of the Sailboat show.

Dave


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> Another one:
> 17. Electric winches, while really awesome, just seem wrong! Are you really sailing when you just have to push a button to trim the sails?


I would never go back. For certain, there are plenty of sailors that belong in a wooden square rigger with block and tackle and a tiller. Anything newer is sacrilege.

However, I have personally witnessed how often we will just pull the sails out in wind conditions where my friends won't go through the effort. I can have them fully out and back in again in a couple of minutes, so I sail more.

Of course, if you must, you can still put a winch handle in them.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

chef2sail said:


> MOnday is the best day to go to get deal from all the purveyors. They dont want to have to pack and their stuff back. Some of the best deep discounts I have gotten were on Mondays of the Sailboat show.
> 
> Dave


Agreed..that's how I purchased my wife's anniversary gift..went by the 'Fatty Knees' dingy sales rep. on a Monday afternoon about an hour before closing. Rep didn't want to drag the dingy back so part of the deal was a delivery to my marina as well as all the optional pieces thrown into the deal.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

15 minutes into my first day at the show, I heard the following question posed to a salesman that pretty much says it all about the state of "sailing", today...

_"Does it have a JOYSTICK?"_

The Annapolis show is always fun, but it's pretty depressing what a hollow shell of what it was 10 or 15 years ago it has now become. The variety of boats that were exhibited this year is not even remotely close to what we were seeing a dozen or more years ago, and it seems each year now another builder is conspicuous by its absence. For me this year, it was Morris. Last year, their Leadership 44 I thought was the star of the show, now they're not even back with one of their Faberge Egg Daysailers, which I think speaks volumes about the state of the industry today...

The show really should be re-named the UNITED STATES CHARTER CATAMARAN & PLASTIC PRODUCTION SAILBOAT SHOW... Without the presence of the hordes of charter companies and their flybridge multihulls with booms 25 feet above the water, the entire show could now be squeezed into Ego Alley. Amazing the amount of open water in between the outer docks now, and this year for the first time, in an effort to fill open space outside the perimeter dock, local brokers were invited to show brokerage boats...

This Stairway to Heaven aboard the Isara 50 has to rate as the stupidest thing I saw this year... Wouldn't you just love to try to keep that chintzy Chinese stainless work gleaming and water spot-free, in a salt water environment?










This is what passes for a nav station, apparently, on a 46' boat these days... Hands-down winner of the award for the Navigator's Chair Most Wildly Out of Proportion To the Table, my 13" MacBook wouldn't even fit in this space:










Looks like a trickle-down/crossover from the world of stinkpots, will Bimbo Pads become the next big thing on sailboats?










Finally, this year's Beauty...










...and The Beast (Monohull Division, winner for the 3rd consecutive year)...


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

We go to the show every year. We're happy with our boat and lack of boat payment for now, but it's nice to get ideas for projects and upgrades from the new boats. Maybe in a few years...

As for there being fewer boats than 10 or 15 years ago, well that has everything to do with the economy. The small builders are selling very few boats right now so the show represents a big investment. I imagine it was even worse at the power boat show.

Sunday was a good day. The rain kept the crowds manageable, our foulies kept us dry and a stop by the Hendricks barge warmed us up. I can't believe this thread is three pages in with no mention of Hendricks!

We enjoyed the show, had drinks with friends and picked up a few things we needed. For us it's a relaxing annual getaway that we always look forward to. Now if I can just keep the wife off the Gozzard...


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## ronbo1 (Feb 17, 2007)

Jon has it exactly right...
As far as crowds...Saturday's was relatively light compared to those going back to the last 15 years. 
I was disappointed that Island Packet's new Blue Jacket wasn't available yeti. Though the economy is still sluggish IP may be positioned for the recovery. 

Ronbo


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## SeaQuinn (Jul 31, 2012)

I went Thursday and Friday....it was definitely more crowded on Friday but it was not totally uncrowded even on Thursday. 
I saw some beautiful boats but I also saw some really disappointing boats as well. I won't name names but was speechless when I looked at one that was so non descript inside I thought I was in a cheap trailer. it even had screws missing from the flooring....so it squeeked. The sales person inside....never looked up from their perch at the table, or said a word. Why would a company waste money to take a boat to a boat show and then present such an eyesore?


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

aa3jy said:


> Agreed..that's how I purchased my wife's anniversary gift..went by the 'Fatty Knees' dingy sales rep. on a Monday afternoon about an hour before closing. Rep didn't want to drag the dingy back so part of the deal was a delivery to my marina as well as all the optional pieces thrown into the deal.


Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on which side of the cash register you're on, too many people are learning this trick. If you're going to cut a deal with them for the demo model of something too bulky that they want to bring back with them AND get a good selection, go no later than Friday morning. Make the deal, they put a "sold" sign on it, display it for the rest of the show and you go back and pick it up 4:00 Monday, show the receipt from your purchase atthe gate and you don't have to pay for admission again (and stay for tear-down, yesssss). Got a heckuva deal on our outboard and dinghy that way.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

juliekristine said:


> For some reason, I thought it was Thursday to Sunday only?


Juliekristine, the power boat show is the one that runs Thurs-Sun; the sailboat show takes advantage of the Columbus Day holiday and runs to Monday. Oddly, because Columbus Day is so late next year (Oct 14), there is some talk of having the powerboat show the weekend BEFORE the sailboat show, instead of after as it is usually scheduled.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

For the traditional monohull sailor, the show left a lot to be desired. For those who want lots of space in their new boat, this was probably a great show.

When I saw the Shannon beast, I was excited at first because I thought they would have one of their real sailboats there. That they only chose to bring a cabin cruiser upon which they mounted sails disappointed me. Hinkley had only a small booth. But maybe that spoke to the trends.

When I walked aboard the Beneteau Sense, the first thing that came to mind was a bachelor pad/party boat. Then I thought about standing on that spacious aft deck and getting hit by a gust. I imagined being thrown overboard.

Later, while inside a Beneteau Oceanis, I heard a customer tell the salesman there are no handholds above. The salesman said that would reduce headroom. The customer frowned then the salesman said, "You can add as many handholds as you want." Problem solved.

The comments here about storage space being reduced to provide larger cabin space are right on. But considering how many positive comments I heard at the boat show about all the open space, well, maybe that's what the manufacturers are reacting to.

But in this economy, and its vanishing middle class, the number of people who can actually afford a new boat is a fraction of what it was 10-15 years ago. If the boatbuilders are going to survive, they have to make their boats cheaper or appeal to a different market. It may be one of those trends that forever changes the world of sailing. I hope not.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

wingNwing said:


> Juliekristine, the power boat show is the one that runs Thurs-Sun; the sailboat show takes advantage of the Columbus Day holiday and runs to Monday. Oddly, because Columbus Day is so late next year (Oct 14), there is some talk of having the powerboat show the weekend BEFORE the sailboat show, instead of after as it is usually scheduled.


Wow, that should foul up some people's plans 

Alot of people who stay in the B&B's and the hotels in town book next years room when they're checking out to make sure they get their spot.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

JulieMor said:


> When I walked aboard the Beneteau Sense, the first thing that came to mind was a bachelor pad/party boat. Then I thought about standing on that spacious aft deck and getting hit by a gust. I imagined being thrown overboard.
> 
> Later, while inside a Beneteau Oceanis, I heard a customer tell the salesman there are no handholds above. The salesman said that would reduce headroom. The customer frowned then the salesman said, "You can add as many handholds as you want." Problem solved..


Just once I'd like to see this in a magazine review.



JulieMor said:


> The comments here about storage space being reduced to provide larger cabin space are right on. But considering how many positive comments I heard at the boat show about all the open space, well, maybe that's what the manufacturers are reacting to..


I commented to one salesman that it would be impossible to cook real meals in the galley of their 30 footer. His response "That's why it has a microwave."



JulieMor said:


> But in this economy, and its vanishing middle class, the number of people who can actually afford a new boat is a fraction of what it was 10-15 years ago. If the boatbuilders are going to survive, they have to make their boats cheaper or appeal to a different market. It may be one of those trends that forever changes the world of sailing. I hope not.


There were very few boats 30 feet and under, but that's been true for as long as I can remember at the show. We wanted to check out the new catalina 315 (we have a Catalina 30 now). There were some things we liked about the boat and at $123K it didn't seem outrageous. Then I asked about a boat optioned like the one at the show and was told high $180's.

I'd think that puts the boat out of reach for much of its traditional family market when you factor in payments plus slip fees and maintenance.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

ronbo1 said:


> I was disappointed that Island Packet's new Blue Jacket wasn't available yeti. Though the economy is still sluggish IP may be positioned for the recovery.
> 
> Ronbo


Well, you could have just had a look at the Tartan 4000 instead, the 2 boats are strikingly similar... Aside from the addition of a Hoyt jib boom, and shaft propulsion in lieu of a saildrive, there's very little apparent distinction between the two...

I can't help but wonder whether some folks at Tartan aren't regretting not having negotiated a more ironclad non-competition clause of some sort with Tim Jackett, perhaps? (grin)

What would you guess the odds will be that Blue Jacket sells a SINGLE version of that boat with the 7' 5" keel? I'm gonna guess slim, to none...


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

JulieMor said:


> But in this economy, and its vanishing middle class, the number of people who can actually afford a new boat is a fraction of what it was 10-15 years ago. If the boatbuilders are going to survive, they have to make their boats cheaper or appeal to a different market. It may be one of those trends that forever changes the world of sailing. I hope not.


Good point. Income distribution today is much like it was in 1929. It wasn't until the 1950s that middle class Americans started buying boats for family recreation and sailing didn't hit the big time until the fiberglass revolution produced affordable small cruiser/racers (small by todays standards) when a family of ordinary means could purchase a sailboat, cruise as a family and race with an amatuer crew with dacron sails. Look at the brochures from the 70s and 80s. They all empasize family and racing. 
We are in a different market. I know bunches of people that pay more for their smart phones and data plans than I pay to keep my sailboat. And that's not counting the cable tv packages with all sports all the time, except of course all ads all the time feeding the gizmo/beer/truck fever.
There are a few relatively rare people that eschew that plugged in mentality and take their family sailing. Which is sad as some of the best posts on sailnet talk about fathers and moms and sons and daughters learning to sail and making lifetime memories and life time bonds out on the water. 
Alas, maybe anon...


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

It is not necessarily a matter of affordability - that assumes everyone wants a new boat.

The real question is why would someone pay 10x as much for new, if your goal is to go out on the water and have fun. You would be paying a lot more money for little or no apparent advantage.

If fact, I believe some of the older boats are better built and more seaworthy than some of the newer boats. So, what exactly are they selling?

The fantasy of sailing? It is absurd to believe the vision of sailing that the boat show provides. Does anyone really care about cut flowers and matching placemats and throw pillows?

How about the reality of wet foul weather gear, sailbags in the forepeak, separate food containers because of inadequate storage, etc?


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

jameswilson29 said:


> ...
> 
> The real question is why would someone pay 10x as much for new, if your goal is to go out on the water and have fun. You would be paying a lot more money for little or no apparent advantage.
> 
> ...


I agree. While I can see the allure of buying a new boat, when we decided on the C30, we went to the boat show and sat in the C309, which, at the time, was the latest version of the 30, sorta. We decided that the aesthetic upgrades weren't worth the $100K+ price difference of new vs. used and the structural issues in the older boat that we ended up buying were fixed by the PO.

That said, we're once again looking at new vs. used as I research the Next Boat, since our needs for the next boat will be different.


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## daledog (Oct 16, 2009)

I'm refitting a Tartan 37 on the Bay (unless someone buys first). Very nice, 1981, flag blue. New barrier coat. Great hull (barrier coat done as prevention). Joinery work spectacular. Tons of storage. Original Westerbeke W50. Original electronics I'd replace with a buyers choice...Here's a good boat for you Julie!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Looks like a trickle-down/crossover from the world of stinkpots, will Bimbo Pads become the next big thing on sailboats?


One can only hope.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I think the successful manufacturers are extremely competent about identifying what their customers want - cabins like condos. As long as I have been attending boatshows I've noticed that when people go onboard they head directly below decks. 

I always checked out the deck, rig etc. first and had it pretty much to myself while it was always SRO below.

People seem to want all the comforts of home, even for a weekend on board.

I (and it appears lots, if not most of the people here) want to SAIL and get away from cellphone ring tones, newzak and all the other "comforts" of life. 

On the other hand, if spending extended periods onboard, or living aboard, the new boats DO have an appeal.


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## ehmanta (Sep 12, 2006)

This was my twentieth consecutive Annapolis Sailboat show and I have always looked forward to this event year after year.......Pit beef sandwiches, pain killers and lots and lots of boats to drool over! This year everything seemed a bit different. The inordinate number of catamarans for starters, I have nothing against cats, they're just not for me. There was an apparent lack of high quality monohulls from say 35 feet to 42 ish....Where was Morris, Cabo Rico, Hinckley, Even Shannon didn't show up with a boat that typified their roots or even one that mere mortals could afford. Gozzard may have been the lone semi-custom builder?? Tartan and Sabre fit the bill but all of the Hylas', Oyster's and Passport's were way too large for me
Is Pacific Seacraft producing any new boats? After they moved to North Carolina, I haven't seen anything from them. I love the PS 40......


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## daledog (Oct 16, 2009)

and I forgot to mention...I missed the sailboat show...I was at the powerboat show last weekend. And being from Ohio, I didn't know. I swear. Painkillers got me. I was the one in the rr for an hour talking to ralph....oy....But an invaluable lesson in life....lol....You don't need the strong ones!


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> One can only hope.


I agree. I often go to powerboat shows just to watch the bimbos board the boats with their stiletto heels.

Mike


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

MikeinLA said:


> I agree. I often go to powerboat shows just to watch the bimbos board the boats with their stiletto heels.
> 
> Mike


You guys make it sound like bimbos are a bad thing :laugher

My wife and I have always laughed at the difference in the sailing crowd at Annapolis and the crowd at the Atlantic City Show in the winter which is mostly power boaters.

You can certainly see why silicone sales are up ...


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

MikeinLA said:


> I agree. I often go to powerboat shows just to watch the bimbos board the boats with their stiletto heels.
> 
> Mike


NOT that I'm calling them bimbos, but I, too, marvel at the women who step out of their heels to board boats. As one who trips over my own feet in flats, I can't imagine being on those floating docks in heels. Throw in a couple of painkillers to the mix and I'm awestruck.

And it took me all morning to figure out what a bimbo pad was.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

SloopJonB said:


> I think the successful manufacturers are extremely competent about identifying what their customers want - cabins like condos. As long as I have been attending boatshows I've noticed that when people go onboard they head directly below decks.
> 
> I always checked out the deck, rig etc. first and had it pretty much to myself while it was always SRO below.
> 
> ...


Mike,
I think it's all how you intend to use your boat. We live aboard weekends from the spring through the fall and mostly day sail. So for us it's a second home and a lot of the upgrades I've done are to make the boat more comfortable. I don't think I'd want to spend August at the Jersey shore without air conditioning for example.

When you're living on board things like new bedding, dockside water, AC, a stereo, a TV and a well equipped galley are nice to have.

It makes it feel more like being on vacation than camping; and that's also something your spouse will appreciate.

Jim


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

DRFerron said:


> Throw in a couple of painkillers to the mix and I'm awestruck.


Me too. 



> And it took me all morning to figure out what a bimbo pad was.


It's a guy thing.


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## IslanderGuy (Apr 26, 2008)

On the topic of price, and target audience for new boats, I have to wonder how much of that is directly related to the longevity of used fiberglass boats.

I mean, if you tried to make new, 30 - 35 foot sensible sailing boats targeted to the average middle class, could you make a profit since there are SO MANY 30 - 35 foot sensible sailing boats on the used market, that just aren't going away, but can be purchased for half the price of what you can build a new copy for? Sure, there's a percentage of people who would buy the new one just to have it new and shiny, but I doubt that's enough to support a business building them. So therefore, you HAVE to build something that's not already available in the used market. More space, even if it's not seaworthy, bigger boats, etc.

Perhaps the best thing the boat manufactures could do to boost their sales of smaller, more "standard" boats is start buying up all the used boats and destroying them to get them out of the market.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JimMcGee said:


> that's also something your spouse will appreciate.
> 
> Jim


There's the real market driver I think. As I've said before, I see a LOT more women on the "comfort" boats than the performance ones.

Can you other geezers here remember when the girls were grateful simply for a place to sit on deck without a piece of hardware under them and a comfortable, private head? 

Now, if someone could produce a boat with the thoughtful luxury of a Hunter, the performance of a J and the looks of a Taiwan Leaky Teaky......

I wonder what I could get for my soul at this late date?


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## daledog (Oct 16, 2009)

Hey, the Pedrick 41 is an opulent interior, fast and very luxurious. I have one next to me for sale, very similar to my T37 (they are side by side). Hey, we move boats, could ship either to ya....!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

daledog said:


> Hey, the Pedrick 41 is an opulent interior, fast and very luxurious. I have one next to me for sale, very similar to my T37 (they are side by side). Hey, we move boats, could ship either to ya....!





> I wonder what I could get for my soul at this late date?


What's your offer?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> When I walked aboard the Beneteau Sense, the first thing that came to mind was a bachelor pad/party boat. Then I thought about standing on that spacious aft deck and getting hit by a gust. I imagined being thrown overboard.
> 
> Later, while inside a Beneteau Oceanis, I heard a customer tell the salesman there are no handholds above. The salesman said that would reduce headroom. The customer frowned then the salesman said, "You can add as many handholds as you want." Problem solved.
> 
> The comments here about storage space being reduced to provide larger cabin space are right on. But considering how many positive comments I heard at the boat show about all the open space, well, maybe that's what the manufacturers are reacting to.


Based upon the sorts of interiors we're seeing on today's boats - particularly some of the Euro brands like Hanse - it seems like just a matter of time before IKEA jumps into boatbuilding...



DRFerron said:


> And it took me all morning to figure out what a bimbo pad was.


The prototypical Bimbo Pad is generally more circular in shape...

I didn't bother dragging out the cushions on this bright, sunny day, however...


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## daledog (Oct 16, 2009)

well there is an instructive photo...even sans bimbos all doubt is now erased as to the meaning of bimbo pad....gee...Hunters really are looking more like powerboats too....ohhhh.....


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> the Pedrick 41 is an opulent interior, fast and very luxurious. I have one next to me for sale, very similar to my T37 (they are side by side). Daledog


You are kidding right!!!!!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I think some are missing the points on the new boats and blaming the women for their rise to prominance. They are popular, and they are most popular to the Gen Y and on population. Thats who these boat manufacturers are aiming at. They are the next group with disposable income, not us baby boomers who are nearing our end of employment. Face it the manufacturers are staying up with the times. They know we are going to buy used boats.

Heres a huge genralization ( which I dont necessarily like doing), 35-45 and younger are looking for IKEA like designs. Go into IKEA...sees who shops there. They want easy to clean, they want low maintainenece, the want to get as large a boat as possible for a PRICE POINT.

Instead of railing and making fun at these boats and commenting they dont sail, are dock queens, condos on the water uinderstand that the people who use them enjoy them, like the water, feel they are sailing and are members of our sport ( hobby) also. I wouldnt call them powerboaters, a lot of them have great sailing skills. Without companies building them in mass production the amolunt of people who cpould own sailboats would be limited. If you want a Rolls...buy it. If you want a Toyota...buy it...If you want a Chevy...buy it. They all can be driven on the road. The Rolls driver isnt better than nor are they special, only in the sense there arent many of them. 

I really get tired of the people complaining about the boat shows...tghe manufacturers make what sells....or they go out of business. If you dont want to buy it...dont. Obviously I dont buy it.

Dave


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## daledog (Oct 16, 2009)

Kidding about the Pedrick?


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

In the Feb. 2102 issue of Cruising World there's an article titled "Catalina 385: A Return To Reason". The article begins:

_Incessant market demands for ever-more spacious interiors has led to incremental yet ultimately substantial increases in the average freeboard, beam-to-length ratio, and transom width of modern sailboats. Unchecked, this volume-driven trend will undoubtedly exceed limitations affecting sensible deck layout, sail performance, seakindliness, and aesthetics."_

I might add that safety could also be compromised.

Whatever the case, based on what I saw at the boat show, I'd say we've already arrived at what the author feared.

I realize companies want to make a profit and remain in business. But the idea of allowing the market to exclusively drive boat design can blow up in your face. When people are injured or killed on boats lacking safety features, the builders and designers will be the first on the list of litigants. When cheaply made boats begin falling apart, the manufacturers will get a bad reputation and customers will stop buying their products. When poorly designed boats begin getting terrible reviews, ditto.

The biggest problem I had with most of the boats I saw at the show came when I imagined myself out on the water in heavy weather. I know what that's like. I just wonder how many of those driving this new trend know that also.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Kidding about comparing the T37 to a Pedrick. Apples and Oranges. I also wouldnt call a T37 quick. While better than average quick to me is Farr, J Sabre, C&C etc. T37 is a cruiser first, as would the Choey Lee.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> Incessant market demands for ever-more spacious interiors has led to incremental yet ultimately substantial increases in the average freeboard, beam-to-length ratio, and transom width of modern sailboats. Unchecked, this volume-driven trend will undoubtedly exceed limitations affecting sensible deck layout, sail performance, seakindliness, and aesthetics.-JulieMor"


Depends what the boats are being used for. Doesnt seem to affect powerboats



> I might add that safety could also be compromisedJulieMor


Thats a stretch. Powerboats have high freeboards, volumeous interiors, Specifically how is the safety being comrpomised?



> When people are injured or killed on boats lacking safety features, the builders and designers will be the first on the list of litigants-JulieMor


.

Thats the free market place, risk of doing business, course no one is twisting the arms of the purchaser of the boats to buy them. Let the market place and the buyers determine what boats will sell and be profitable...the builders will build them and them only.

What some in my generation and the purisits cant seem to get, is thats what this generation of boat buyers wants, and they are the ones who now have the expendable income not the baby boomers anymore. Do you really think they would boats that didnt sell, werent profitable, werent what the people who buy new boats want. They have extensive marketing and profit margins which tells them which way to go. When they build substandard quality for their price point, unsafe boats so they have a ton of lawsuits, they will stop building them.



> The biggest problem I had with most of the boats I saw at the show came when I imagined myself out on the water in heavy weather. I know what that's like. I just wonder how many of those driving this new trend know that also-JulieMor.


I totally disagree
Did you look at all the boats? I saw the Morris, the Outbound, the Gozzard, the Hylas, The Sabre, the Tartan, Passport just to name a few. They certainly looked stout enough. I have been on many of them actually out at sea, not just sitting at the dock and they are very stable platforms. If you are refering to the production boats looking like they cant handle heavy weather, what kind of weather are we talking about here. Force 10 winds...doubt they will out in that. Chesapeake chop...they certainly can handle that. Actually most of them are used as Charter boats in the trade winds and they seem to be able to handle that. Look at the Carribean 1500 you see some of these same boats in larger models.

. You think these people are office dwellers, chefs, or electricians designing and building these boats? Not hardly. They know more about what they are doing than you and I. If they dont their comapny will fail, thats the free marketplace. I think they have a better handle on what Gen Y and later want than you or I who are mired in our baby boomer way of thinking.

Remember I like you wont buy one for many of the same reasons you wont, but I dont think they are wrong for turning a part of their buisiness over to sell them.

Heres an example. IP..good build quaility, would survive a storm, rough ride however and not what I would call a performing sailboat to windward. They have seen on the whole that that factor has driven sailors away from their brand and are changing and coming out with a more performance oriented brand. Another example- Bennetau....has three different levels of the the same designed boats. Regular, First, and Oceanus series. Trust me the free market place will define what is built, but what sells.

Dave


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JulieMor said:


> In the Feb. 2102 issue of Cruising World there's an article titled "Catalina 385: A Return To Reason". The article begins:
> 
> _Incessant market demands for ever-more spacious interiors has led to incremental yet ultimately substantial increases in the average freeboard, beam-to-length ratio, and transom width of modern sailboats. Unchecked, this volume-driven trend will undoubtedly exceed limitations affecting sensible deck layout, sail performance, seakindliness, and aesthetics."_
> 
> ...


Regarding beam to lenght ratio that makes no sense. That would make sense if the major influence of modern cruiser design was not the influence of a type of racer, I mean Open classes for solo racers, that are even more beamy than modern cruising boats.

Or do you think that those racers are unsafe or their beamy hulls have as purpose a spacious interior?

The beamy hulls of modern cruisers emulate the best recipe for solo boats, precisely because most of those boats are sailed or solo or by an old sailor with some help from his wife.

The beamy hulls give them a very stable platform, the possibility of sailing with less heel and a better stability in downwind sailing. True, they are less comfortable and less performant upwind but somebody said once that "Gentlemen don't sail upwind" and to my experience most cruisers just motor upwind.

So the trend is very easy to sail boats, boats that heel very little with a special aptitude downwind and with a big engine to go upwind The big interior comes as a bonus.

That does not mean that they are the boats I favor (they are not) but they are like that for the reasons I have stated and not for the ones that are said by that journalist.

Regards

Paulo


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

JulieMor said:


> In the Feb. 2102 issue of Cruising World there's an article titled "Catalina 385: A Return To Reason". The article begins:
> 
> _Incessant market demands for ever-more spacious interiors has led to incremental yet ultimately substantial increases in the average freeboard, beam-to-length ratio, and transom width of modern sailboats. Unchecked, this volume-driven trend will undoubtedly exceed limitations affecting sensible deck layout, sail performance, seakindliness, and aesthetics."_
> 
> I might add that safety could also be compromised.


I am not quite sure if I agree with your reasoning. You seem point a finger to the few remaining boat makers who are just evil. They have no passion to build good boat but just greedy to make money regardless public safety.

Today's sailboats have better hull design which is faster, lighter, and safer. I have no problem of taking any 40 footer production boat go around the world. A blue water boat does not mean it must have a small cockpit and a canoe stern to survive the seas. One of the most conservative boat builders, Hallberg Rassy recently introduces the new 412 with the ass is as wide as the beam. They use a fin keel and spade rudder.










I am not going to argue about which one of better aesthetics because it is fruitless. But I would rather cross the ocean in a big ass stern cockpit with twin wheels. When the storm hits, I will set a few provisions to limit my mobility in the cockpit. It is perfectly safe.

Most people cross the ocean often encounter no wind than too much wind because everyone picks a very conservative weather window before heading out. Motoring in the middle of the ocean with a sea as flat as the mirror next 50 miles sucks. I would rather sit in my big ass cockpit. 

If you have a chance, take a tour of boat factory for Beneteau/Jeanneau or Hallberg Rassy. You will be impressed. The amount of R&D and testing that going on is impressive. Robert Perry is a great boat designer in his time. But Germán Frers is a great designer in our time. I wish people will open their eyes to see what technology can bring to us for our pleasure and enjoyment.

Yes, today's boats have much less wood and more composite material. I don't think it is a bad thing to save a few remaining trees. We are the only a few remaining countries still build stick-built houses using 2x4. No one can afford to build houses outside N America.

Frankly, I like less wood in the boat is better became it is less maintenance and wt.. I like my interior of the boat bright and airy. It is so depressing after a long watch and go down to the cabin that reminds me a smelly dark basement with all wood paneling.

Either you like it or not, today's boat design is going to stay. We are no longer the consumers of the future. This belongs to our children. Today the boat builders must attract to the younger professionals. When I was growing up, I don't hate my parent's music, why would I expect my children will like my Rock and roll music. I love Queen Ann style furniture, But I am not going get upset with Ikea because my children love their stuff.

Open you heart, respect the trend. Modern technology is great for all of us.

YMMV


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

JulieMor said:


> In the Feb. 2102 issue of Cruising World there's an article titled "Catalina 385: A Return To Reason". The article begins:
> 
> _Incessant market demands for ever-more spacious interiors has led to incremental yet ultimately substantial increases in the average freeboard, beam-to-length ratio, and transom width of modern sailboats. Unchecked, this volume-driven trend will undoubtedly exceed limitations affecting sensible deck layout, sail performance, seakindliness, and aesthetics."_
> 
> I might add that safety could also be compromised...


I don't subscribe to CW, so I can't read the full context of your quote. But I know that the 5 series Catalinas are less beamy than their predecessors. With that knowledge, the "Return to Reason" title of the review, and the critical word "unchecked," I believe that your quote is stating what Catalina has stopped doing, not what they are doing going forward.

I think it's a stretch to suggest that those wide beamy boats compromise safety. The comments I have heard from those who have sailed the new 5 series is that they perform a little better, and I suspect that's why Catalina pulled back a bit.

I think all the major production boat builders make boats that are safe for their intended market, which in most cases is coastal cruising in comfort with an eye to value. Bluewater vessels often sacrifice some comfort and economy for the obvious reasons. But that compromise is not necessary for someone who has no intention of going out into the ocean.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

rockDAWG said:


> Robert Perry is a great boat designer in his time. But Germán Frers is a great designer in our time.


Frers is older than the maestro and they are both great designers in our time. 



> Open you heart, respect the trend. Modern technology is great for all of us. YMMV


There is LOTS of modern technology that I love and lots about the design of contemporary boats that I like very much, particularly the thoughtful detailing and ergonomic aspects. Also, I don't think any of the critical comments here are directed at the hyper-expensive boats like Morris, HR, Oyster etc.

The biggest problem I have with the boats built until recently in this century is that, for the most part, they look like running shoes. That seems to be changing finally - witness the dramatic "cat's eye" styling of recent Jeanneaus - gorgeous.

I'm a big believer in "form follows function" but for more than a decade now it's been following way too far behind for my taste.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> In the Feb. 2102 issue of Cruising World there's an article titled "Catalina 385: A Return To Reason". The article begins:
> 
> _Incessant market demands for ever-more spacious interiors has led to incremental yet ultimately substantial increases in the average freeboard, beam-to-length ratio, and transom width of modern sailboats. Unchecked, this volume-driven trend will undoubtedly exceed limitations affecting sensible deck layout, sail performance, seakindliness, and aesthetics."_
> 
> I might add that safety could also be compromised.


We long ago reached the point where most production sailboats are being designed from the inside-out... And I think the proliferation and popularity that boat shows reached 20 years or so ago - where side-by-side comparison shopping made even the smallest differences in interior volume readily apparent - is largely responsible for this phenomenon, IMHO...

We're talking about boats, so of course by definition there is always a tradeoff/compromise to be made... And, to me, the heaviest price paid for accommodation space is some of the appallingly bad deck and cockpit ergonomics that can result... the modern trend towards excessive sculpting and faceting of decks and coachroofs is one of the most dangerous results of designing yachts around parameters like excessive headroom, or centerline queen berths below...

This is one of the best examples of this sort of tradeoff that I'm seeing today. This excessively wide cockpit coaming, which is necessary to create headroom in either a quarter cabin, or a passageway to an aft cabin, makes for a very risky maneuver moving from such a raised cockpit, onto a relatively low deck... That narrow little "step" sculpted is a freakin' joke, and to have to clamber over such a broad, slippery slope, in such an exposed location with minimal handholds, at night in a seaway, adds greatly to the risk of going forward...

Pretty depressing, how far we've come in certain respects, to completely ignoring or dispensing with seamanlike qualities in so many boats today...










Another example of a cockpit designed around a master cabin aft... In this pic, you will see SEVEN different levels of deck and coaming... I delivered this boat for years, have tens of thousands of miles offshore on her, and I still NEVER got completely used to that arrangement, I was still forever tripping or stepping off that stupid little hump at the helm...

Perhaps it's just me, and I'm just a klutz aboard a small boat... But give me a traditional wide, flat deck any day, where this distinction between horizontal and vertical surfaces is a bit more apparent...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

TakeFive said:


> I don't subscribe to CW, so I can't read the full context of your quote. But I know that the 5 series Catalinas are less beamy than their predecessors. With that knowledge, the "Return to Reason" title of the review, and the critical word "unchecked," I believe that your quote is stating what Catalina has stopped doing, not what they are doing going forward.
> 
> I think it's a stretch to suggest that those wide beamy boats compromise safety. The comments I have heard from those who have sailed the new 5 series is that they perform a little better, and I suspect that's why Catalina pulled back a bit.
> 
> I think all the major production boat builders make boats that are safe for their intended market, which in most cases is coastal cruising in comfort with an eye to value. Bluewater vessels often sacrifice some comfort and economy for the obvious reasons. But that compromise is not necessary for someone who has no intention of going out into the ocean.


I agree with the rest but regarding the serie 5 from Catalina, yes the 445 has less 14 cms of beam than the 440 but the 385 has more 12 cms of beam than the 387 the 355 has more 2 cms than the 36MKII and the 315 has also more 2cm than the 309 so I would not say that the new serie 5 are less beamy boats than the previous models. That is true only for the 445. All the other are beamier.

Regards

Paulo


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

The Cruising World article was praising Catalina for returning to reason. 

The safety issues I referred to were primarily regarding wide open spaces with few or no hand holds. I've been on cabin cruisers with that same kind of wide open space. I've been thrown about and I've seen other people thrown about and get hurt. And I know one person who went overboard. That's not my idea of safe boating.


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## Nicklaus (Apr 23, 2012)

chef2sail said:


> I think some are missing the points on the new boats and blaming the women for their rise to prominance. They are popular, and they are most popular to the Gen Y and on population. Thats who these boat manufacturers are aiming at. They are the next group with disposable income, not us baby boomers who are nearing our end of employment. Face it the manufacturers are staying up with the times. They know we are going to buy used boats.
> 
> Heres a huge genralization ( which I dont necessarily like doing), 35-45 and younger are looking for IKEA like designs. Go into IKEA...sees who shops there. They want easy to clean, they want low maintainenece, the want to get as large a boat as possible for a PRICE POINT.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Builders build what sells. Most people use their boat for day sails and over night trips - so why buy a boat capable of rounding Cape Horn if you never go more than 3 hours from your home port.

And, after watching the Volvo Ocean race, I'm not sure those boats are any stouter than the average floating condo - broken mast, delamination, broken rudders, etc....

Personally, I hope people buy those decked out boats so I can buy it from them in 20 years for a fraction the cost.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Nicklaus said:


> Personally, I hope people buy those decked out boats so I can buy it from them in 20 years for a fraction the cost.


That's one thing I won't want to do - they are going to be as nightmarish to work on as contemporary cars. Something as simple as rebedding a cleat requires cutting access holes to get at the back of the fasteners. It appears that the boats are pretty well completely assembled before the deck is put on the hull. Serviceability does not appear to be a factor in their design - at least the ones I've been on.


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## Nicklaus (Apr 23, 2012)

Perhaps you're right SJB but I've yet to find any system "easy" to get at on any boat ...


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## red.sky (Jun 26, 2012)

JulieMor said:


> 11. I need to figure out how to spend more time sailing and less time dreaming about it!


just DO it


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> That's one thing I won't want to do - they are going to be as nightmarish to work on as contemporary cars. Something as simple as rebedding a cleat requires cutting access holes to get at the back of the fasteners. It appears that the boats are pretty well completely assembled before the deck is put on the hull. Serviceability does not appear to be a factor in their design - at least the ones I've been on.


Yup, in many respects, today's boats with liners and all the rest will not make for tomorrow's "Good Old Boats", for sure...

Speaking of cleats, I saw this stern mooring cleat on the Tartan 4000 (the pic is from a review of the boat, lauding the elegance of the craftsmanship)...

Guess somebody didn't get the memo that cleats are supposed to be placed _in sheer_ to the expected loads... Never ceases to amaze, to see something so basic, gotten so wrong, on a boat with a base price of half a million...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Yup, in many respects, today's boats with liners and all the rest will not make for tomorrow's "Good Old Boats", for sure...
> 
> Speaking of cleats, I saw this stern mooring cleat on the Tartan 4000 (the pic is from a review of the boat, lauding the elegance of the craftsmanship)...
> 
> Guess somebody didn't get the memo that cleats are supposed to be placed _in sheer_ to the expected loads... Never ceases to amaze, to see something so basic, gotten so wrong, on a boat with a base price of half a million...


Yeah, but have you ever seen a more gorgeous chock or hawsehole or whatever you call that piece.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> Yeah, but have you ever seen a more gorgeous chock or hawsehole or whatever you call that piece.


Funny, the writer of the review cited their value as a _"conversation starter"_ at the yacht club dock...



> I'm not wild about the teak rub and cap rails. They're pretty but not terribly practical, and I'd rather see an aluminum toe rail with multiple attachment points and lower maintenance. The stainless-steel chocks on the bow are nice to have but are a bit tight and hard to feed a line through, especially in a hurry or under load. But these nods to tradition are what makes a Tartan so noticeable at the yacht club dock, where looks are likely to start conversations sooner than practicality. What the heck-sometimes it's nice to just admire something beautiful.
> 
> Read more: Tartan 4000: Instant Classic - Features, Boat Reviews and Boat Tests - Boats.com


Perhaps the theory is, when that cleat gets ripped out of the coaming, it will jam and be "captured" by the chock? (grin)


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Perhaps the theory is, when that cleat gets ripped out of the coaming, it will jam and be "captured" by the chock? (grin)


That's called "Fail-Safe" engineering isn't it?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Bob Perry...where are you...didnt realize you were so old...someone just spoke aboput you



> Robert Perry is a great boat designer in his time. But Germán Frers is a great designer in our time- ROCKDAWG


This is such an idiotic statement. Look how many different to notch Perry designed sailboats from different companies are still sailing and still considered to notch.



> Yes, today's boats have much less wood and more composite material. I don't think it is a bad thing to save a few -Rockdawg


I am sure the carbon fotprint to build vinalester resins and plastics, as well as the plants to produce them and the air pollution surely outweighs the energy expended
in using some woods.

Personally I like wood in my cabin. I dont subscribe to the " hospital operating room look" of many modern boats. Wood is no harder to clean. I apreciate the craftmanship of people who know how to make wood " talk". I am suprised they still use Teak and Holly on the floors of the newer boats.

For me I like the older traditional boats, but alas the new sailors who have money see it another way and the times they are a changing. There still are choices, so buyy what you like, and sail what you like, what ever gets you out on the water..Whatever floats your boat.

Dave


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Nicklaus said:


> And, after watching the Volvo Ocean race, I'm not sure those boats are any stouter than the average floating condo - broken mast, delamination, broken rudders, etc....
> 
> ..


I don't know the boat you sail but put it at the same stress forces that the Volvo boars are subjected and you will have a boat in small pieces. volvo boats are massively strong and have to be to resist what their are designed to be put up against.

Just an image: Imagine your boat falling at 30K from an height of 5 m not one time but again and again....get the picture?

Regards

Paulo


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Teak isn't disappearing because our kids don't like it. It has become extraordinarily expensive and some countries have banned the import of it from places where it is most prolific, due to their unsustainable harvesting. Things get popular, they get expensive. Things get scarce, they get expensive. Teak is now popular and scarce. (You all know that no gentleman in New England would originally eat a lobster, they were fed only to prisoners!!)

Manufacturers now use inferior or recycled teak to essentially make a teak particle board and then paint a grain on it. I just can't do it. Veneer with a real grain and real board trim, I can do. But step on an old craftsman's solid teak boat and it really does speak to me! It just can't be produced today at anything near a marketable cost.

With regard to teak and holly floors, I'm starting to see bamboo with teak inlay floors. While water resistant, I think bamboo is a horrible material for a boat, especially a floor. Its too soft.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

*Quote:
Originally Posted by ronbo1

I was disappointed that Island Packet's new Blue Jacket wasn't available yeti. Though the economy is still sluggish IP may be positioned for the recovery.

Ronbo
*



JonEisberg said:


> Well, you could have just had a look at the Tartan 4000 instead, the 2 boats are strikingly similar... Aside from the addition of a Hoyt jib boom, and shaft propulsion in lieu of a saildrive, there's very little apparent distinction between the two...
> 
> ....
> 
> What would you guess the odds will be that Blue Jacket sells a SINGLE version of that boat with the 7' 5" keel? I'm gonna guess slim, to none...


Jon, Similar? What do you mean? it seems to me that the only thing in what they are similar is the Length and the draft.

The hulls are completely different, Blue jacket is a lot less beamier, it is even narrow for a modern 40ft. It has less 20cm of beam than the Tartan and that is a lot in a 40ft.

The Blue Jacket is also 1300kg lighter and the is a huge difference in a 40ft sailboat.

The BlueJacket has a substantially superior B/D ratio (0.369 to 0.326).

In fact the boats will have a very distinct behavior in the water, being the Bluejacket a faster and better upwind boat, with a more comfortable sea motion. The Tartan will be more stable downwind and will sail with less heel.

Regards

Paulo


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

PCP said:


> *Quote:
> Originally Posted by ronbo1
> 
> I was disappointed that Island Packet's new Blue Jacket wasn't available yeti. Though the economy is still sluggish IP may be positioned for the recovery.
> ...


Does the IP's new line (still) have the encapsulated chain plates?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> (You all know that no gentleman in New England would originally eat a lobster, they were fed only to prisoners!!)


The worlds steadily been going to hell for a long time.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

*lobster*

Great fact Jon. So I need to get thrown in jail in New England then.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

aa3jy said:


> Does the IP's new line (still) have the encapsulated chain plates?


I don't know. All I know you can find it here:

Blue Jacket Yachts - Performance Cruising Sailboats | BlueJacketYachts.com

But I am sure that it will be a very solid boat: Not only the boat is designed by Tim Jackett (ex-President and Chief Designer at Tartan and C&C)as it was the collaboration of Bob Johnson (CEO and Chief Designer at Island Packet).

Bob Johnson like strong boats so I believe that this one will be well built and strong.

The more unusual feature (for a performance boat) is that kind of boom for the front sail that the Island Packets use for decades.

The interior layout is also pretty innovative (I like it) with angles that will only be visible in the drawing and that in fact will increase the interior space giving a more efficient utilization to all available space.





































Regards

Paulo


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

I missed the boat show this year due to a family issues. Really wanted to see some of the newer boats. 
The Blue Jacket boat was one of them. I wanted to get the inside story of why Bob Johnson paired up with Mr Jacket after he lost his company due to unethical business practices and quality control. While the design looks appealing I wonder how much control Mr Jacket has in this design and manufacturing of this boat. 
I had the chance to tear into a IP 420 last week. I like the design of the boat very much except I am not into all the teak. It cost over 3k to have someone do it every year. No thanks. On the engineering side 2 big things set me back on my heels; chainplates encapsulated into the hull and ALL tanks, fuel, water and waste under the floor with NO access to them. The tanks are all aluminum with no way of inspecting, taking them out for replacement, and in some cases cannot change out the hoses. When asked about it the broker said about 8-10k to change out the chainplates and around the same to rip out the floor to change out any tanks. He even had pictures of it being done. I said "WOW"! Mike over at IP customer service recommends the chainplates be done after 15 years. Furthermore the holding tank is under the master cabin bed! NO Thank You!. What a crappy design. :>(
I wanted to see if the Blue Jacket had any of those two items built into the boat.


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## Nicklaus (Apr 23, 2012)

Melrna said:


> Furthermore the holding tank is under the master cabin bed! NO Thank You!. What a crappy design. :>(


"Crappy" design indeed. My holding tank is under my V-berth as well. Frees up some easily accessible storage space further aft but not an ideal napping spot on a hot August day if you haven't paid it some attention in the last few days.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

From what the rep on the Sabre said, the chainplates on the 456 are encapsulated. He talked about how this feature meant any water leaking in at the chainplates won't seep through to the woodwork, ruining it. I pictured moisture gathering around the encapsulated chainplates and just sitting there, bathing the metal in a permanent bath.

Maybe I misunderstood him.


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## Rezz (Oct 12, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> *snip*
> 
> With regard to teak and holly floors, I'm starting to see bamboo with teak inlay floors. While water resistant, I think bamboo is a horrible material for a boat, especially a floor. Its too soft.


While I agree with all your other points (I deleted them to save room), I have to disagree with this one. Bamboo is actually considered a hardwood in most flooring. Depending on the lay of the grain and methods of flooring, it can be harder than golden teak but not as hard as Brazilian. Still, I'd say it's no slouch when it comes to hardness.

Sorry for the large(ish) image but it shows a good comparison of flooring hardness ratings. Another advantage of Bamboo is, as you mentioned, the water resistance. All the above noted - that doesn't mean I'm a bamboo fan either!

lumberliquidators.com/assets/images/landing_pages_promos/starthere/Janka_Ratings.jpg

*edit* - apparently I don't have enough posts for an image. There's the link up there for those who want to cut and paste.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Melrna said:


> .. ALL tanks, fuel, water and waste under the floor with NO access to them. The tanks are all *aluminum* with no way of inspecting, taking them out for replacement, and in some cases cannot change out the hoses. ... Furthermore the holding tank is under the master cabin bed! NO Thank You!. What a crappy design. :>(
> I wanted to see if the Blue Jacket had any of those two items built into the boat.


Aluminium are you sure? It is not a good material for tanks. Why aluminium in an heavy boat and not stainlesssteel or even plastic?

What do you mean by no access do you mean you cannot inspect or clean them? That is hard to believe. Diesel tanks have to be inspected and cleaned regularly.

Regards

Paulo


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

PCP said:


> *Quote:
> Originally Posted by ronbo1
> 
> I was disappointed that Island Packet's new Blue Jacket wasn't available yeti. Though the economy is still sluggish IP may be positioned for the recovery.
> ...


All very good points, Paolo - you're right, of course, there are significant differences between the two...

What strikes me, however, is the visual similarities to the boats, and how closely they resemble one another to my eye...

The portlights in the deckhouse, for example - virtually identical... 2 smaller forward, 3 slightly larger, one smaller aft... The cockpits, with the twin canted pedestals, and fold-down transom steps, very much alike... The rigs are quite similar, I can't think of any other American builder currently offering that rig, with the Park Avenue boom, German mainsheet setup, etc... Those are all things that were heretofore somewhat proprietary or unique to Tartan (again, at least among American builders), and now "imported" by Jackett to IP...

I agree that this looks like a very sweet boat, I'll be looking forward to seeing it, for sure... I've always loved Jackett's interiors, I think his use of angles really works, and certainly makes them more interesting visually. I don't get the twin aft staterooms on a performance-oriented boat, however, I much prefer the Tartan 4000 layout in that regard. And I'm really perplexed why the drawings show only 2 cockpit primary winches, what are you supposed to do with the mainsheet when you're flying the reacher?

Minor details, I know... What's most interesting about this boat, perhaps, is what it represents about the new direction IP is taking, and whether there really is a market share out there to be captured? In my observation, IP owners in general are not looking for performance, and to those more concerned with such, Island Packet is most definitely not the first "brand" that comes to mind... (grin)


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Tartan was encapsulating the chainplates in FRP on the 27' back in the 1960's. I suppose it seemed like a good idea at the time, the thinking being that: "Moisture will never get in there." The current owners of these old boats know better. Moisture found a way in there and it turns out that stainless steel (no matter what alloy) will crevice corrode and even rust when surrounded by moisture without the presence of air. The SS bolts used to anchor the chainplates could rust badly and any wood used in the knee wall fabrication will turn back into soil. 
I think that this is an inherently short sighted and bad design. How difficult would it be to have the chainplates mounted outside the knee wall with the bolts showing in the cabin?


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JonEisberg said:


> ....
> 
> What strikes me, however, is the visual similarities to the boats, and how closely they resemble one another to my eye...
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I guess the two boats are aesthetically very conservative and are aimed to US clients that are supposed to be more conservative than Europeans or at least is what jackett thinks. well that is changing and I don't know if that is true anymore.

I don't like the old conservative look in any of the boats. It is not easy to manage to have a classic look in a modern boat. You have to know how to mix traditional elements with modern ones. In my opinion they have not succeed. This one looks a bit better than the Tartan that looks really funny with that big transom in classic disguise.

I have posted about the BlueJacket in the interesting boats thread and said the same thing you said about the winches. Sure, they have a kind of self tacking head sail but for the Geenaker or Spinaker they would need another pair of winches. I guess they sell it like that standard and if you want to have a geenaker (that evidently the clients of that type of boat will want) they will sell you two more as an option. That way the boat is apparently less expensive

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

CalebD said:


> ...
> I think that this is an inherently short sighted and bad design. How difficult would it be to have the chainplates mounted outside the knee wall with the bolts showing in the cabin?


You mean, like most builders do?
Well, than would not be a IP anymore They do things differently.

Regards

Paulo


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Resolute_ZS said:


> While I agree with all your other points (I deleted them to save room), I have to disagree with this one. Bamboo is actually considered a hardwood in most flooring. Depending on the lay of the grain and methods of flooring, it can be harder than golden teak but not as hard as Brazilian. Still, I'd say it's no slouch when it comes to hardness.......


Perhaps there are different grades of bamboo. I concluded that because I have bamboo floors in our home and completely regret it. They aren't just scratched, they are actually dented by everything placed upon them. Since my boat takes much more abuse than my home, I don't think they would fair well. The big advantage of bamboo is it regrows extremely fast, so its considered sustainable.


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

PCP said:


> Aluminium are you sure? It is not a good material for tanks. Why aluminium in an heavy boat and not stainlesssteel or even plastic?
> 
> What do you mean by no access do you mean you cannot inspect or clean them? That is hard to believe. Diesel tanks have to be inspected and cleaned regularly.
> 
> ...


It is exactly what I mean. I could not find any access plates, Nada.


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