# Can an Ocean Crossing boat be had for under $10k?



## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

*Can a coastal cruising boat that's blue water upgradeable be had for under $10k?*

edit: *I changed the title to make sure it is understood that I want to do coastal cruising first, for $10,000 or a little more but I want to have a boat that I won't have to sell to go blue water.* I changed my goals a bit. I am willing to spend maybe $10,000 more to get the boat ocean crossing ready after doing coastal cruising. Life rafts are expensive.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

When reading this thread [URL="http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/69039-crossing-pacific-want-go-7.html]Crossing Pacific ... want to come[/URL] I found that they were going to spend $20,000 - $30,000 on a boat which would take 4 people across the Pacific. Several pages in to that thread they were looking at the 35' range. It looked like there were a number of boats which qualified for that price range but some people were skeptical.

*If carrying two people can I get by a $10,000 boat?* If the interior is in poor shape maybe because the boat sunk that'll be okay. I hope she won't need more than $3,000 to get her ocean crossing ready.

I'm still not clear on what it is exactly that makes a boat ready to cross an ocean. I imagine a more sturdy hull is needed, but what kinds of boats have that? I was looking through yachtworld and I saw several boats in the mid 30' range for under $10,000. Is there a reason why boats like these couldn't cross an ocean?


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

In a search here are some boats I found (I'm assuming the listings are honest):

_40 ft 1961 Kettenburg K- 40 --- US$9,995
Wood, don't want that.
38 ft 1989 Amateur Kurland 38 --- US$5,816
Steel - probably about rusted through at that low price._
38' Beneteau IDYLLE --- US$8,000
Needs engine and standing rigging installed, after that's done, great deal?
35 ft 1974 Coronado 35sl --- US$7,995
If I could fix the engine, then good deal?
35 ft 1971 Morgan --- US$9,900
35 ft 1968 Pearson Sloop --- US$9,900
Engine needs new head gasket. Fairly time consuming job. Could be done.
34 ft 1977 Ericson --- US$9,900
34 ft 1986 Topper Hermanson Custom Steel Cutter --- US$6,500
"Needs minor welding" That's easy (for me anyway).

Wouldn't all of the last 6 boats here qualify for a safe ocean crossing (once fixed)?

Here's a link to my seach on yachtworld: (Sail) Boats For Sale


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

steel said:


> Wouldn't all of the last 6 boats here qualify for a safe ocean crossing (once fixed)?


The "once fixed" is the rub. Looking at the ages of these boats, the running rigging likely will need replacing, the standing rigging will need close examination. Anything from the mid 80's may need blister repair (big generalization). The electronics may not be up to standard. The wiring will need attention and will all hose and gas fittings.

A good survey will help pinpoint what needs to be done. A good mechanic should be able check the engine, transmission, etc..

Then you get to add the offshore safety gear.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Sure, you can buy any of the boats mentioned... I'm assuming you have an idea of how much it will actually cost to get one up to snuff? Even if you're doing your own work, there'll be yard fees, materials, etc... it WILL add up quickly and your 10k boat will cost much much more. The boats you list are in all probability very cheap for very good and very expensive reasons.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

An Alberg 30 fits the bill. It will need outfitting, but the boats are fairly cheap and very sound/sea kindly.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

NO. Those boats that you listed are priced that way for a good reason, and offshore capable and ready boats are priced much, much higher for a good reason. With all due respect, just by asking this question it's obvious that you don't have the knowledge or experience to be thinking about buying a boat for a major crossing. That's not to say you couldn't try it, others have shoved off with little or no experience, and most of them are still alive. It really comes down to what value you place on your own, and your crew's, lives.


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## P35juniper (Feb 11, 2010)

look at Pearson Tritons, they can be had on the cheap, have gone offshore, all depends on what you want out of it.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

IF your gonna put decent quality safety equipment on the boat the 10k would not even cover that

Most of the boats your looking at need 20k + in materials and a year of your life if not more










That is a pretty good looking A4 but it is a 40 year old saltwater cooled motor

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/2/1/9/2/3/2192338_16.jpg?1270575142000

Another well kept motor


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## SailingWebGuy (May 5, 2010)

I think it can be done if you're really resourceful. With a lot of digging you can find a "Blue Water" boat that's missing all the blue water gear for cheap. There are boat donation orgs out there that have a lot of good boats for cheap. When I was looking for my boat (through a donation company) I came across a Cherubini Hunter 37 that had gone across a few times. The price tag on it was $5500. It even had a lot of good gear on it already. BUT...the boat probably needed about a years worth of work to get it ready. 

I also saw an Alberg 37(ish) in the same condition. A salvage guy that I know was paid $1000 to take the boat away. He was trying to decide whether to fix the boat or scrap it and sell the lead from the keel. He offered to sell me that boat for $4000.

There is definitely a "dark and dirty" end to the spectrum of the sailing community where I'm from. It includes dock rats, scrappers, and salvage guys. Everyone I've met so far have been really good people. The important part though is that...they're loaded with parts.

When I need something for my boat I make a quick phone call. If my buddies don't have what I'm looking for the response is usually "Give me a day or two...I know a guy that has that but I think he's out sailing today." The parts I get are used but always in good condition.

I do like the point that someone made earlier about the "related costs" because it's something I kinda ignored in the beginning. Storage, registration, insurances all add up really fast. A boat can cost a pretty good chunk of change even if you do nothing with it and just let it sit on the hard.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

As I've said before, you'd be much better off getting a boat in decent shape than trying to buy one cheaply and refurbish it. *When you refurbish an old boat, you end up paying NEW BOAT PRICES for gear, unless you're lucky enough to find everything you need used and at bargain bin prices. * Unless you have the place, skills and tools to do most of the work yourself, refurbishing a boat can get very, very expensive.

For instance, replacing the standing rigging on a boat may cost $1000 easily, and that is if you are capable of actually doing the physical fitting and attachment of the replacement rigging yourself. If you have to hire a rigger to do that, figure on $4000 or so.

Replacing the sheet winches on a boat may cost almost $1000 a piece if you find them at a good price. The bigger the boat, the more the winches are going to cost. For the price of a sheet winch on an acquaintance's 50' boat, I could replace all the winches on mine.

Yes, you could probably get a boat that was in sailable shape for $10000 that could cross bluewaters. However, it would probably be pretty spartan in terms of what gear and equipment it had, and would probably be missing a lot of the things that make life aboard more pleasant.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

One thing that happens to boats sitting for years and years is the boat starts to sink, or wobble around the keel, stressing the cross members or struts. I could be wrong but think this is one thing that really needs scrutiny. Then the inevitable rain water filling the boat up and freezing, is another concern.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A well found boat shouldn't have an issue with the keel from just sitting around. The water filling up the boat and freezing/thawing is an issue though.


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

> With all due respect, just by asking this question it's obvious that you don't have the knowledge or experience to be thinking about buying a boat for a major crossing. That's not to say you couldn't try it, others have shoved off with little or no experience, and most of them are still alive. It really comes down to what value you place on your own, and your crew's, lives.


I want to do coastal cruising. I hope the boats I listed here would safely handle that with some money put in to fixing them up. But, if I later on when I have more experience if I want to go further out or cross an ocean I want to make sure that don't have a boat that is unsuitable and I would have to sell it and get a proper one.

But, considering what sailingdog said:


> When you refurbish an old boat, you end up paying NEW BOAT PRICES for gear, unless you're lucky enough to find everything you need used and at bargain bin prices.


Maybe it would be better to buy a cheap boat for coastal crusing and then get a $20,000 blue water boat which would be the cheapest way to get everything needed.



> For instance, replacing the standing rigging on a boat may cost $1000 easily, and that is if you are capable of actually doing the physical fitting and attachment of the replacement rigging yourself.


$1000 isn't that bad. And I'll make sure the winches work.



> Yes, you could probably get a boat that was in sailable shape for $10000 [...] would probably be missing a lot of the things that make life aboard more pleasant.


As long as the head works, and there is room for an air matress and a sleeping bag.  I should have plenty of time to fix stuff that doesn't require hauling the boat. If the electrical system needs a lot of work, that's fine. I'll hook up the nav lights, bilge pump and radio with some zip cord and then work on fixing the other stuff. Electrical and plumbing issues shouldn't be a problem for me. Stuff like replacing the prop and rudder seals and bearings is going to be expensive though. I would like to have everything which requires hauling the boat to fix in good working order and have the boat in the water for under $12,000.

*I'm just looking to buy a cheap boat for some sailing near shore, but at the same time planning ahead so I won't have to sell it later if I want to venture out.*

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

steel said:


> *I'm just looking to buy a cheap boat for some sailing near shore, but at the same time planning ahead so I won't have to sell it later if I want to venture out.*


The usual advice is: get the smallest boat that fits your needs now, and don't worry about having to resell when you're ready for something else. If you take good care of it and sell it clean and polished, you won't lose anything and might even make a buck if you bought it looking dirty (even if everything important was sound).

And the best way to figure out what you like and what your priorities are is to get out there and sail.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Again-*you don't want a cheap boat-you shouldn't focus on PRICE, but on VALUE. * You want a good boat at a good price.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Yes, it can be done with a $10k boat and there are plenty of people who've done it on even less of a boat. The questions become how much risk are you willing to take and how much comfort/convenience are you willing to go without? Don't forget that the competence of the captain and crew is at least as important as the vessel.

The following are a few proven boats that can sometimes be had for $10k or less:

Pearson Triton
Pearson Ariel (Here's a nice one near me for $3,500)
Bristol 24
Columbia 29
Albin Vega
Alberg 29/30
Contessa 26



steel said:


> I'm still not clear on what it is exactly that makes a boat ready to cross an ocean. I imagine a more sturdy hull is needed, but what kinds of boats have that?


Hull strength is just a very small part of the equation. Hull shape/design, deck hardware, cabin layout, tankage, rig design, rigging condition, cockpit design, rudder/keel configuration, displacement, storage, etc. are all also very important. Keep in mind there is no "perfect" bluewater boat...they're all trade-offs!


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## W3ODF (Sep 18, 2010)

I'm no expert on the subject but I have always found that its easier, in the long run, to buy from a distressed owner (needs money, wants to avoid headaches, needs to dump an item, etc.) is better than buying distressed property (needs lots and lots of repairs). I have experienced this both the easy way (following this principle) and the hard way.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

You could probably build your own tinkerbelle for less than that. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinkerbelle

Otherwise I imagine it would take a few years to find and outfit a boat for the money you are looking for. Do you intend to take a liferaft, start by pricing out one and see how much money is left over for a boat, sails rigging.


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

steel said:


> When reading this thread [URL="http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/69039-crossing-pacific-want-go-7.html]Crossing Pacific ... want to come[/URL] I found that they were going to spend $20,000 - $30,000 on a boat which would take 4 people across the Pacific. Several pages in to that thread they were looking at the 35' range. It looked like there were a number of boats which qualified for that price range but some people were skeptical.
> 
> *If carrying two people can I get by a $10,000 boat?* If the interior is in poor shape maybe because the boat sunk that'll be okay. I hope she won't need more than $3,000 to get her ocean crossing ready.
> 
> I'm still not clear on what it is exactly that makes a boat ready to cross an ocean. I imagine a more sturdy hull is needed, but what kinds of boats have that? I was looking through yachtworld and I saw several boats in the mid 30' range for under $10,000. Is there a reason why boats like these couldn't cross an ocean?


I am the last person on earth that would step on someone's dream but I can't keep quiet any longer. This "How cheaply can I disappear off the face of the earth" trend needs to stop before the notion takes hold that it's possible to cross an ocean on an abandoned auction boat.

You are not going to find a blue water boat, fully equipped for a voyage, and sound enough to just sign the papers, throw your gear on and cross an ocean for anywhere even close to 20-30k. Much less 10k.

For the sake of argument lets consider that a plastic classic but solid coastal cruiser costs 30k, then you will spend 30k to have a solid coastal cruiser regardless of the purchase price and if bought in really poor condition it could cost well above 30k. Remember, once you own the boat it becomes a white elephant that you can't just walk away from.


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## LauderBoy (Mar 15, 2010)

steel said:


> I was looking through yachtworld and I saw several boats in the mid 30' range for under $10,000. Is there a reason why boats like these couldn't cross an ocean?


Forget mid 30ft boats for 10k. Anything with that price tag will require significant work to make suitable for leaving the dock without sinking, let alone going out into the ocean.

Start here: Atom Voyages | Voyages Aboard the Sailboat Atom -* Good Old Boats List - choosing a* small voyaging sailboat

One thing that surprised me is you don't have to have a large boat to go places. Here's a guy that video documented a trip from Europe to Australia in his Contessa 26: films | Bigoceans.com


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## trisstan87 (Aug 15, 2010)

SJ34 said:


> I am the last person on earth that would step on someone's dream but I can't keep quiet any longer. This "How cheaply can I disappear off the face of the earth" trend needs to stop before the notion takes hold that it's possible to cross an ocean on an abandoned auction boat.
> 
> You are not going to find a blue water boat, fully equipped for a voyage, and sound enough to just sign the papers, throw your gear on and cross an ocean for anywhere even close to 20-30k. Much less 10k.
> 
> For the sake of argument lets consider that a plastic classic but solid coastal cruiser costs 30k, then you will spend 30k to have a solid coastal cruiser regardless of the purchase price and if bought in really poor condition it could cost well above 30k. Remember, once you own the boat it becomes a white elephant that you can't just walk away from.


I think what you say is completely innaccurate. There is a 33' Morgan Outisland in the Marina by my house that is a 1977 for $17,000 or best offer. THAT is an official blue water but there are so many other options to be had for 10K-15K and even cheaper if you look at boats around 25' instead of 30'. You can ABSOLUTELY find a well priced, good-value blue water vessel and fit it out completely for a voyage for under $30,000. If you cant then I suggest you stop buying everything from WCM and start looking for deals. 
So I am sorry, but your agrument is dead wrong. I could provide my own argument but for time sake id rather point you and anyone else to a well known example from "The Cruisers Handbook" when the author goes over the total costs for buying, outfitting, and maintaining the cheaper of the three boats in the book. 
Now add to the fact that this is a GREAT time to buy a sailboat AND the winter months are almost here and I say again, MAJOR deals are out there, you only have to look.


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

Tristan, before I rebut your rebuttal let me tell you a little about myself.

I have been buying boats (some abandoned and neglected) and restoring them since you were still in diapers. I didn't just throw out my previous statement from thin air or from a desire to see my opinion posted on the world wide interweb (see my join date and post count). I am speaking from tons of very hard earned experience on this particular subject. 

For the record, I have never paid asking price for a boat, car, house or much of anything where the purchase price could be negotiated, not because I'm a tightwad but I'm very particular and I won't pay for something I will have to redo later. I would rather buy a project that needs a bottom job for example because I will likely be fairing the hull anyway. So I'm not arguing that cheap boats can't be found. I'm arguing that when you're crossing an ocean the primary concern shouldn't be cheap. 

As for your example, what is the condition of that 17k (not under 10k) Morgan OI? Is the mast and standing rigging sound? Is the engine to be trusted thousands of miles from anywhere? Tanks clean and corrosion free? Electronics in good shape? How are the hull and decks? Sails up for the challenge of a crossing? These are the major things that most people will notice right away but there are still way too many small, seemingly insignificant things that can be life threatening on an ocean.

Zac Sunderland, the 17yr old circumnavigator, started with a sound Islander 36 that was donated to him for the cause. They spent upwards of 50k preparing the boat at the yard his dad managed so I'm sure they got a better than average deal on the labor and parts and he still had problems that nearly ended his attempt. 

Like hot women and exotic cars, it's never just the initial purchase price.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I have to agree with SJ34... it isn't just about buying the boat. Outfitting it for a bluewater passage can be pretty pricey, even for a boat that is in "perfect" shape. Even most "bluewater boats" like a brand-new Hallberg Rassys aren't going to be ready to circumnavigate or even cross an ocean without a bit of work, unless you've paid the dealer to do all the stuff that needs to be done for you. And if that is the case, doing this on a budget isn't going to be an issue for you. 

A lot of the recommended safety gear—PFDs, Throwing lines, EPIRBs, Harnesses, Tethers, Jacklines, Flares, Life rafts, survival suits, Air Horns, Bells, Signalling Mirrors, etc., are not included when you buy a boat. 

Then there is the stuff that makes a bluewater passage more comfortable—a windvane or autopilot, radar, AIS, SSB, etc., and very little of this is included on a brand new boat. 

That said, if you are very, very lucky, you might be able to buy a boat that has a windvane, autopilot, EPIRB, etc., from a recent bluewater crossing. However, I'd expect that you'll probably have to replace the battery on the EPIRB $$, refurbish the windvane $$, inspect and repack the liferaft $$$, etc., 

A lot of that gear isn't necessary, but having a seaworthy and well-found boat IS. And there generally isn't any good way to do it cheaply.


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

Yes you can do it but it takes some looking. My buddy singlehanded across the Atlantic a couple of times in his Hughes 35. Unfortunately the boat was lost when it fell off an elevated highway while he was towing it. As it was not insured he was a bit strapped to get another boat. I found a Roberts 35 in Antigua. He got it for under $10,000 and sailed it back to Toronto. The only improvement was that he took his ST winches off the wrecked Hughes and put them on the Roberts. He subsequently singlehanded the Roberts across the Atlantic twice.


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

I bought my 34-foot boat for less than $10,000 a few years ago. I just had it surveyed for insurance purposes - the surveyor valued it at over $40,000. Of course, I have invested at least $30,000 (if not more) in repairs and upgrades, not counting my own time. I have done a lot of offshore sailing with it, although no ocean crossings....yet (planning a trip to Bermuda and back next year).


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## zboss (Mar 26, 2006)

OK - I don't really know what I am talking about but... since I too am looking for a decent boat at a decent price but... I will open my trap anyhow. 

Is it possible to approach the dream in stages? Buy a decent boat and spend some time (a year, two years - whatever) cruising the coasts and only equipping for what you need? You would have enough time to shake down the boat and prepare it for the extended cruise and at the same time get your sail on.

Just sayin'


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## LauderBoy (Mar 15, 2010)

Yeah, you can do it in stages. One issue though is that a good long range offshore cruiser will be built in a way that may make it not a good coastal boat. Design choices that make it better for the middle of the Atlantic, but not as good as other boats for sitting anchored in a protected shallow water bay while you drink rum in the cockpit under the stars.

You really need to research the hell out of the subject. There are books on what makes for a good offshore cruiser and you also really need to assess what you want to do. If you KNOW you want to go to Bora Bora, well, do it. Get a boat with a reputation for going to places like that and fit it out, however long it takes you and the boat to be ready for that. But if you think while "one day" you want to do that, but know up front you want to just sail the coast and cut your teeth on it, maybe a coastal cruiser will make you happier now for less $$. Your 1st boat doesn't have to be your last one.


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## BostonSailor (Sep 14, 2010)

John Vigor wrote a book in 1999 called "twenty small sailboats to take you anywhere". The book covers boats that are built to cross, yet generally affordable - like an alberg that was mentioned. It's a fun read and helps you understand what to look for in a sturdy boat.


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

> I am the last person on earth that would step on someone's dream but I can't keep quiet any longer. This "How cheaply can I disappear off the face of the earth" trend needs to stop before the notion takes hold that it's possible to cross an ocean on an abandoned auction boat.


I think this trend is great. In America we tend to not put much thought in to price. I'm all about doing things cheaply. _The trend just needs to be, how can we do it with the least amount of money, with reasonable safety._

I think what you said about not ever being able to find an Ocean crossing boat for under $30,000 is simply not true. There are sellers who need to unload their boats in this market. _I'm not the type who will buy a $3000 battery for my EPIRB._ Does the NASA effect apply to sail boats? That's where a $10 screw driver costs $10,000 because it is for space.



> Like hot women and exotic cars, it's never just the initial purchase price.


I would be more happy with a woman who wasn't in the "hot woman" category! That fixes a lot of problems. Can the same be applied to boats?



> I think what you say is completely innaccurate. There is a 33' Morgan Outisland in the Marina by my house that is a 1977 for $17,000 or best offer. THAT is an official blue water but there are so many other options to be had for 10K-15K and even cheaper if you look at boats around 25' instead of 30'. You can ABSOLUTELY find a well priced, good-value blue water vessel and fit it out completely for a voyage for under $30,000. If you cant then I suggest you stop buying everything from WCM and start looking for deals.
> So I am sorry, but your agrument is dead wrong. I could provide my own argument but for time sake id rather point you and anyone else to a well known example from "The Cruisers Handbook" when the author goes over the total costs for buying, outfitting, and maintaining the cheaper of the three boats in the book.
> Now add to the fact that this is a GREAT time to buy a sailboat AND the winter months are almost here and I say again, MAJOR deals are out there, you only have to look.


*Thanks Tristian87 that sounds perfectly reasonable.* Have you found your live a boat boat yet?

*Just a quick thought: If I got a metal hulled sail boat with small securely sealed windows, no plastic through hull instruments which could break off and flood the boat, high quality and inspected through hulls, and 2000 Watt hours of emergency batteries and emergency bilge pump along with the engine, would that be safer than having a fiberglass boat and a life raft?*



Vasco said:


> Yes you can do it but it takes some looking. My buddy singlehanded across the Atlantic a couple of times in his Hughes 35. Unfortunately the boat was lost when it fell off an elevated highway while he was towing it. As it was not insured he was a bit strapped to get another boat. I found a Roberts 35 in Antigua. He got it for under $10,000 and sailed it back to Toronto. The only improvement was that he took his ST winches off the wrecked Hughes and put them on the Roberts. He subsequently singlehanded the Roberts across the Atlantic twice.


Now that's what I'm talking about!



> Is it possible to approach the dream in stages? Buy a decent boat and spend some time (a year, two years - whatever) cruising the coasts and only equipping for what you need? You would have enough time to shake down the boat and prepare it for the extended cruise and at the same time get your sail on.


Hey that's what I want to do. But, if I can plan ahead now and get something which can cross an ocean later after some fixing up and avoid having to sell it I want to make sure I know that now.

Here are some things I have thought of that would be needed to upgrade to blue water. Of course there are probably many more things:

Assorted tools for repairs
Sufficient water storage
Water maker
Fishing equipment
More Charts
Backup compass
Drogue
Backup running rigging lines
Weather gear
Harness
Electronics:
Solar panels
GPS / Loran C
SSB radio and antenna
Autopilot
EPIRB
Emergency
First aid kit
Backup battery and bilge pump
Life raft
EPIRB
Good life jackets
Small survival kits to abandon ship with, with food and lights etc.
Extra flares
Seasickness stuff

That stuff may cost a fair amount. How much is a life raft?


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## svs3 (Jun 23, 2006)

I and many others have asked the same question here and other places. It is a question I have pondered and researched for a while now. The bottom line answer I believe is: Yes such boats do exist. But there are several caveats to that answer.

The first is, how much time are you willing to sacrifice? As others have pointed out any boat in your price range will require a lot work by you to be brought up to the condition necessary to safely under take a series of ocean crossings. You are essentially trying to trade time for money. The less you want or have to spend more time and ingenuity it will require on your part. Is your time better spent fixing an old boat for the next year or two or three or working hard and saving money during that time so that you have more money available when you do decide to buy? Will you have enough money after all this to actually set sail or will you have to continue to work and save for the next one to three or five years to have the money to under take this adventure?

The second is, do you have the skills, tools and space to undertake such a project? If you don't acquiring them them can be very costly. Think thousands and thousands of dollars over the life of this project. This is in addition to price of the actual materials and equipment for the boat. How are your woodworking, sewing, fiberglass repair, and welding skills? Good enough to potentially bet your life on? Are you willing to add more time and therefore money to your project when a repair, renovation or modification doesn't work out like you'd hoped and you have to rip it out and start over?

Third, are you serious and dedicated enough to sustain the dream for the next two to five years and endure the setbacks and frustrations you are sure to encounter? 

Finally, and don't take this the wrong way, but, in my opinion, you should seriously ask yourself if you have the experience to make a sound decision about these boats if you even have to ask the question.

I don't want to discourage you for this is just go into it a realistic idea of want it will take. There is a lot more involved than just buying a boat and setting sail the next day.


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## cgaskell (Feb 2, 2009)

the smaller boats are phenomenally cheaper with regard to equipping them for bluewater, not to mention simpler - so long as you don't try to pack it with electronics! if you are handy and good at networking, you can probably get a bunch a bluewater gear like windvanes and drogues for very little. but as svs3 says you need a lot of spare time and proficiency in various areas to be able to ready your > 10k boat. As someone rightly said, it has been done and for much less too. anybody can get lucky, they just have to expose themselves to situations and have a positive attitude. go for it!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

While I agree it is a good book, I would HIGHLY DISAGREE all of the boats were built to cross bluewater. *Some of the boats in that book are lightly built coastal cruisers that require HEAVY MODIFICATIONS to be made seaworthy enough to cross oceans safely. *

A better book to look at is *John Vigor's The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat*, which describes the characteristics that you might consider looking for in a bluewater passagemaking boat. However, his book is clearly aimed at monohulls and much of it is not applicable to multihulls. 



BostonSailor said:


> John Vigor wrote a book in 1999 called "twenty small sailboats to take you anywhere". The book covers boats that are built to cross, yet generally affordable - like an alberg that was mentioned. It's a fun read and helps you understand what to look for in a sturdy boat.


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

I think some people might not understand something about this. I'm *not* looking for a boat which has a good comfortable interior! As long as it is as good as camping in a tent I'll be fine. Does the boat have no beds or benches? I'll get two camping cots and secure them to the floor on each side. No table? I'll make one out of plywood and some hinges! *I'm thinking that a lot of people would not want a boat in such a condition, making it really cheap for me to buy!* If the electrical system needs fixing up that's easy for me.



svs3 said:


> You are essentially trying to trade time for money.


And comfort for money. Most people wouldn't want a boat that I would find acceptable if it looked ugly inside and wasn't comfortable. At least I hope.



> The second is, do you have the skills, tools and space to undertake such a project? If you don't acquiring them them can be very costly. Think thousands and thousands of dollars over the life of this project. This is in addition to price of the actual materials and equipment for the boat. How are your woodworking, sewing, fiberglass repair, and welding skills? Good enough to potentially bet your life on? Are you willing to add more time and therefore money to your project when a repair, renovation or modification doesn't work out like you'd hoped and you have to rip it out and start over?


Welding yes. Fiberglass not at all. Sewing -- what the sails? Not really. Wood working? What for, the interior? Yeah! Plywood and 2x4s is my way. Don't even have to worry about sanding or painting or anything like that!



> I don't want to discourage you for this is just go into it a realistic idea of want it will take. There is a lot more involved than just buying a boat and setting sail the next day.


Why is it assumed that I must live in some kind luxury? I would spend 5 years doing what, fixing up some rare wood interior?

Let's take that one steel boat that needs welding for instance. Hiring a welder to come out costs a forture. Field welders make over $50 an hour. That's probably partially why it's so cheap. I'll weld it myself. Then the hull needs to be prepared for painting and repainted. I admit I really have no idea how much that would cost to have done. Assuming it would cost $8000 to have done, $14500 would have the boat ready to stay in the water for several years. The engine in that boat is fairly new. At this point I should have a nice coastal cruiser. Then I can buy the other stuff later.


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

God takes care of fools, children and new cruisers but some times he is asleep.

jrd22 has it right, What value do you place on the lives of your crew!!!

Buy a simple boat, learn to be fully competent and then if all goes well buy a bluewater boat.

Safety equipment is very expensive. I have more than $10,000 in liferaft, radios, epirbs, MOB equipment and lifejackets for my off-shore crew of 4-6.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Steel, I’m assuming that you are looking more for validation than advice, so I’m telling you to “go for it”. You have made me realize that I haven’t learned all that much over the thirty plus years of sailing boats on the ocean. And, that a clever neophyte like yourself knows all the tricks in procuring affordable gear and outfitting for cruising that have somehow eluded the rest of us. I hope that you can impart this wisdom to us before you too, become experienced and somehow lose these valuable insights. Keep up your posting as I’m sure it will be entertaining. Far too often the “Tyros” stop posting after they get in over their heads and for once I’d like to read the “postscript”.


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## SailingWebGuy (May 5, 2010)

Hey Steel!

Where are you located? If you're anywhere near MD I'll hook you up with a company that has a lot of boats that match what you're looking for.


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## johnnyandjebus (Sep 15, 2009)

steel said:


> I think some people might not understand something about this. I'm *not* looking for a boat which has a good comfortable interior! As long as it is as good as camping in a tent I'll be fine. Does the boat have no beds or benches? I'll get two camping cots and secure them to the floor on each side. No table? I'll make one out of plywood and some hinges! *I'm thinking that a lot of people would not want a boat in such a condition, making it really cheap for me to buy!* If the electrical system needs fixing up that's easy for me.
> .
> .


Steel

First off I have never crossed an ocean on any boat so what do I know, not that it will stop me from throwing in my own 2 cents.

I speculate that your $ numbers may be off a bit, but not by much, taking your statement above into the equation. I sail a Contessa 26, a boat that has crossed many oceans many times. If you are patient you can find one for < 6000$.

See links below for more on the boat.

A site dedicated to the boat
The Contessa Corner - A site for Contessa owners, sailors and dreamers.

A site created by Jeff Naffe, he sailed a co26 partly around the world. He has recently updated the site to make it more generic but he has plenty of info, including video logs of his journey.
Bigoceans.com | Blog & Sailing forums for offshore sailors

A Norwegian couple currently sailing a co26 around the world.
Home - Bika

I do agree with SD's suggestion, John Vigor's book is a must read for a guy with your intentions.

John


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## HDChopper (Oct 17, 2010)

Steel . IMO go for it 5-10K isnt all that much to find out & maybe even win ...

No really I am of the same type of thinking as yourself , if the boat falls within my skillset's then I would give it a go ...( I have built & flown exp airplanes to say the least )..

Which one are you going for the 41 foot steel cutter or the Steel Topper Hermanson 34 footer ? I see the 41 footer is pending 
I have been looking hard at the Topper & even been in e-mail contact with the broker....

Whatever you do have fun at it because life is to short .

wish you well ...

OK Yall you can hammer on me also lol


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## wayne56 (Mar 28, 2009)

Sure, lots of people have done crossings in simple-well founded boats in the 30' to 35' range without a lot of redundant electronics. I sailed across the Atlantic last year with a (very experienced) 65 year old guy on his 3rd crossing whose first big ocean adventure 10 or 15 years prior was a 5 to 6 week crossing in a 30 footer with limited fuel, no SSB radio or sat phone, and no weather updates.

But...there is also the story of the SV Silver out of Toronto about 6 years ago. An inexperiened sailor bought his dream "fixer upper" and a year later set out for northern Europe with his nephew. The kid survived but the uncle died when the old engine gave out in a gale, the pumps quickly drained the batteries, and the 'slightly' leaky boat flooded rapidly and slipped beneath the waves off Iceland at night.

A personal example of Murphy's law - we did what we thought was a thorough inspection of an Island Packet 40 before leaving USVI heading to Bermuda. Great boat with a solid seagoing reputation; but it started to take on some water 500m from anywhere. After a couple of hours of checking through hulls and then digging through bilges and lockers, it turned out the fibreglass cockpit drain tubes were rotten and disintegrating near the water line...potentially two 2" diameter holes in the boat. If the problem had arisen during a serious storm, we may not have been able to quickly find the source or fix it.

For those who love it, sailing is a lifelong adventure building skills, knowledge and confidence to handle an almost infinite variety of challenges. And you don't have to go far from shore to build up the resume...


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## HDChopper (Oct 17, 2010)

Not to thread jump but ........
Just put in for a loan for the 38' Beneteau IDYLLE . take the winter to finnish her out and back to work for her . hopefully there will be enough left of her after her next years of service for me to enjoy her
 needless to say I will be learning all the way/time too  ( She could make money still the Topper couldn't much IMHO..)

Steel I still say go for it !

I am doing all I can to get out there with all you good folks ASAP


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

You can have a high dollar boat with every conceivable safety item aboard, and still lose her. You can have an inexpensive boat, and manage to sailaway to faraway places. A lot depends on who is in charge of the vessel. Read Webb Chiles to see what can be accomplished.

2 years ago I sold a 1972 30ft. Columbia for $10k. She had new sails, rigging, furler, canvas, cushions. Not so new, but in good conditions was radar, gps, solar, 2 autopilots, windlass, 3 anchors, dodger with cockpit awning, propane stove 10 yrs old, and the list goes on.

If the buyer hadn't been so difficul he would have found tools, parts, cookware, dishes, and the rest of the stuff to live aboard. This doesn't mean it's an everyday deal, but deal do exist. They especially exist in this economy. Some may say a Columbia is not bluewater. You will find coastal cruisers all over the world, and they arrived on their own bottoms. It's not impossible to find what you seek, but you have to turnover every stone, and look. BEST WISHES in finding a solid vessel to serve you well........*i2f*


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

HDChopper said:


> I have been looking hard at the Topper & even been in e-mail contact with the broker....


Humm they didn't reply to my email.

Thanks to those of you who said encouraging things.

Think about the old days of large wooden ships, with no communications or modern navigation. We're kind of spoiled today!


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## P35juniper (Feb 11, 2010)

it all comes down to what you are willing to risk, if you are willing to bet your life, you can cross an ocean in a canoe, if you risking your life puts mine or someone elses at risk, say S&R personel, is is still worth it, if you doing so makes it more troublesome for me to go about my thing, say laws that say I have to do this and this, like I am required to have a life jacket in my boat at all time now because to many people didn't think it was nessesary, or have flares or any other thing like that,
If you do it remember the difference of being cheap and being inexpensive, cheap is cutting corners, inxpensive is finding out how to remove the corner in the first place, you do not need I $10000 life raft if you don't care if you drown or you know how to keep your boat afloat, you do not need modern electronic if you don't care if you get lost or you know how to navigate with out it or you don't care if you get lost, you don't need alot of things, 
Knowledge is more inportant then stuff, stuff does not replace knowledge, knowlege can replace stuff,
OK theres my rant. 
I see no big flaws to your plan if you can pull it off
I hope you can pull it off,
If you can weld but have no idea about FG, look at the steel boats, if you don't care about an interior, gut it, less weight, less stuff, less stuff to break the better, just know what you are doing, I don't want anyone to rescue you,


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## sailjunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

Very interesting thread. I'm not sure if there is a hard and fast answer for the OP's original question. I have heard stories about people sailing a heavily-reinforced Catalina 27 around the world; or a Contessa 26. On the other hand, they were designed for coastal cruising and required extensive upgrades before they could go.

Forgive me for asking, but if budget is a major concern, will the boat be as safe as it should be? I realize that not all blue-water cruisers have unlimited resources, but shouldn't the boat be as safe as possible?


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## kulokoo (Feb 19, 2010)

I've seen few small boats like a Triton and a Folkboat for sale locally for $5-10K, but I've not gone and inspected them. I am betting for the balance of the $10K you could get one ready to go, though depending on the boat's condition you might have to do a lot of the work yourself and surely you have to forgo the latest in electronic gear. 

People do cross oceans in those boats. And people circumnavigated well before all the latest gear was invented. But do those boats fit you and your conception of your journeys?


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## dupek (Aug 6, 2010)

I just spend consider amount of time reading the post advices. If someone is asking for specific length (30 or more), why would you try to point that men to 26 feet boat. I can not image my self in 26 living on board. Maybe for some of you ,trow away few thousand of dollars is nothing, but for most people is unimaginable. Most replay I see is "buy small, learn to sail and then buy bigger boat". Wasted time and money. I have dream too and still looking for cheap 30 or more that will grown with me. The most important aspect of boat is hull. If the hull is strong enough to make the trip across Atlantic, then rest of it is just a upgrade. Fancy rigging and equipment will not help if the hull will buckle up.
The ideal would be a steel boat. Its hull my be rusty, but can be fixed. Patching glass in old boats my not be a good idea. I would start with cheap basic and upgrade slowly. I do not have money to trow away. I would do most of the work by my self and in process, I would learn about the boat. Passage across ocean take some time and I would need some place to store food and water. 
I understand that some of you my see my post offensive. It is not my intention to offend any one, but remind that if some one is asking for blue water boat, that person need advice on strength of a boat. 
I do not care if my future boat is dirty( it can be clean) or need some equipment. As long as hull is strong enough to get me across, I will be happy.


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## johnnyandjebus (Sep 15, 2009)

dupek said:


> I just spend consider amount of time reading the post advices. If someone is asking for specific length (30 or more), why would you try to point that men to 26 feet boat.
> .
> .


Simply because he mentioned he had seen several 30 boats cheap, not that he required the length. I understood $ restraints were more important than the length of the boat. But I may have read wrong


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## kulokoo (Feb 19, 2010)

Dupek mate,

I hope the OP wasn't offended by my suggestion of 26 and 28 foot boats, but those particular boats do cross oceans and have a good reputation for doing so, and I believe they can be found for significantly less than a comparably seaworthy 35 foot boat.

A Morgan 382 or the like might be the boat one wants for live aboard and crossing oceans with relative comfort, but that's a lot more boat and generally a whole lot more money.

At any rate my mention of Folkboats and Tritons was not flippant at all, the same questions of seaworthiness, living space, and limited funds are very much on my mind.


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## LauderBoy (Mar 15, 2010)

dupek said:


> I understand that some of you my see my post offensive. It is not my intention to offend any one, but remind that if some one is asking for blue water boat, that person need advice on strength of a boat.


Which is why we were suggesting smaller boats. With a 10k budget a mid 30 ft bluewater boat would be a mess. But it's reasonable to get a smaller boat that can take you around the world with a little work with that cash.


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## okawbow (Feb 15, 2007)

*$10,000 boat*

I have been preparing a 1967 Cheoy Lee Offshore 31 for over a year now, for an offshore trip. So far I have upgraded the rigging, rudder, and hull strength items like bulkheads, chainplates, and hatches. I've done all the work myself, and have less than $10,000 in a boat that is in the water now, and could cross the ocean anytime. No, I don't have modern electronics. I have an old Magellan 5000 DLX, GPS that could take me anywhere. I have 2 other old GPS and a sextant for back up. I have a good VHF radio, plus a handheld.

I could spend thousands on a liferaft, but probably won't. I'll focus on having the items and skills to fight fire, leaks, and other disasters at sea. Some people have warned me that I'm not spending as much money to prepare as they think I should. Those same people won't leave the dock when the wind is over 10 knots, or won't sail alone. I feel sorry for them.


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

O M G.


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## dupek (Aug 6, 2010)

I would not want to face pi%% off Poseidon in 26 foot glass boat. I could have better chance in 30 or more steel boat. Ever wander of why people buy SUV?
They feel safer in larger vehicle. Some of them ( most) do not take time to learn how to drive larger vehicle and flip or crash. Some with boats. Have to learn, but will feel safer in rough weather. Yes, there are few who took a chance in small boat and make it, but I am not that brave. There is very few steel boats left and I just do not trust a glass. Steel boat require more attention that glass, but so SUV, compare to Corrola.


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## okawbow (Feb 15, 2007)

*proves my point*



Flybyknight said:


> O M G.


Like I said, don't pay much attention to the naysayers, who don't know you, or your abilities. Most sailors will never venture out of sight of land. Some will circle the earth in an old run down boat. It's not the boat, or equipment or the money. Only you know if you have what it takes to make the whole thing work. if you have doubts; get the experience, and learn the things needed to be safe and successful.

People have crossed oceans in all kinds of boats, at all levels of experience. Heck, some have even crossed the atlantic in Cape Dory 25's.


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## zboss (Mar 26, 2006)

Actually, I think a woman just rowed across the Atlantic in a 19 foot boat.


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## svs3 (Jun 23, 2006)

I think most replies were positive about whether or not an ocean going boat could be had for what the OP wanted to pay as long as he or she knew what they were getting into. Boat yards and marinas are littered with fixer-uppers that the owners got in over their heads on.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

okawbow said:


> I have been preparing a 1967 Cheoy Lee Offshore 31 for over a year now.


Okabow,
Sounds like you've got a goal and are making it happen for the right price. I've got a lot of respect for that. My question is how much sailing, boat ownership and maintenance experience did you have before that?

The OP has said it be okay if the boat had been sunk previously, cause he could rip out the interior and put in an inflatable bed, zip tie the electrical system back together, make sure the winches work before buying and a few other things that makes me think he has never worked on a boat before, let alone sailed much.

I agree an ocean crossing boat could be put together for 10k or so. I think it takes a rare individual, with skills and tenacity to make it happen. I think it even rarer for a nooby with no knowledge of the process of sailboats to accomplish this.


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## okawbow (Feb 15, 2007)

I think you are right about the individual. But, experience is not a good indicator of a persons potential. I know some sailors who have 30 years "experience", but are still afraid to sail an overnight passage. 

There is no better way to gain experience than setting off alone on short trips, leading to longer passages. I had owned boats and sailed for many years before doing a 1000 mile solo cruise, including overnight offshore passages. I found I learned far more in 1 month, than I thought I knew in 20 years. 

By the time someone gets a "project" ready for sea; they usually will be immersed in reading, videos, and conversation about sailing. They will also know more about their boat than the well to do sailor that bought the new model with all the bells and whistles. let em do their thing, and learn , fail, give up, or succeed. Lifes too short to dream, and not DO.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

There seem to be two classes of people. And they may agree on a lot, but their disagreements are going make a big difference when spec'ing out an offshore boat.

No one here thinks you have to spend a fortune on a hull or totally buys what the manufacturers will tell you about improved hull construction in newer boats. How fast it will sail aside, the consensus seems to be that a thickly laid-up classic from the 60's is as good a call as you can make if it's got a proven track record. So the old Alberg designs etc. will come out at the top of the list, and they're not that expensive (I see Alberg 30's for under $10k). Heck, Pascoe will tell you to go for the old solid-hulls in a second over the new stuff.

Similarly, no one's leaving home without GPS, and probably a handheld for backup. Or without a VHF. Neither of those are going to run you more than a few hundred. Pick up an EPIRB too while you're at it, and sail with a harness if you're single handing.

It's where you go next that things diverge.

One group is just less risk averse. They probably skew younger. And they think if the rigging seems solid, it probably is. If the old A4 seems to work ok, it's fine. And if people have been crossing the lake in boats like this for 40 years - without the GPS or the VHF necessarily - they'll be ok too. And they probably will.

The other group is a lot more conservative. Probably older, with a family. And they wouldn't lose site of land without a very careful standing rigging inspection, new running rigging (and backups for all of it), good sails and backups, radar, a better radar reflector than the basic tinfoil. They're going to demand more fuel and water tankage, at least a careful engine overhaul if not a modern, efficient diesel. A life raft. Lots of tools and extra parts for the auxiliary. A proper oven maybe  

In truth? The vast majority of people who set out with the appropriate experience and weather info will make it. And a few of even the best equipped won't. The risks are small enough that it gets hard to evaluate what really pays off. Heck, driving on I-95 is probably way more dangerous. So it boils down to how you look at life and what kind of person you are.

(I am completely aware that I am not leaving port on anything that doesn't guarantee a hot shower every night, so I guess there's a third group  ... not even sure what it would take to get my wife on board, though she knows I want to do it)


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## dupek (Aug 6, 2010)

40 years ago, I sail Omega class sailboat. I had to be under supervision as I fail the navigation navigation course. Since then, I stay on ground. I will be back on the water and this time, I will not fail navigation course. GPS it is good tool, but should be consider "assisting tool". I do have a calculator, but I do most of my calculation "in my head" or on paper. I do enjoy "electronic era", but when they fail ( and they will), I want to be able to look up and know where I am. Having radio is great, but I would have few extra flares.


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## Livinondreams (Feb 26, 2008)

Where there is a will there is a way, but it isn't that easy. If you look hard enough you can find some deals. But be careful not to get to much of a project because even when doing most of the work yourself the costs will add up. Just while the boat is sitting, you will still be spending money on it for yard storage. Sometimes it is better to spend a little more to get a little less of a project. A while back I bought a contessa 26 project boat. As time went on I realized that by the time I would be done, I could have just saved the money and bought a whole lot less of a project. So I decided to start again, I now have a westsail 28 that still needs some work, but not near the amount the contessa did. And I also got standing headroom . And with the internet these days it is easy to find many second hand parts to outfit the boat. I picked up a handheld gps the other day for 20 bucks. So if you take your time and look around you can definitly put a boat together on a budget. Good luck and go for it!


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## Justapersona (Oct 25, 2010)

I don't recall where I read a similar thread (sorry, no link) but the gist was,

"It can be a great opportunity to buy a fixer-up boat, because after you've added the new engine, sails, standing & running rigging, etc, you've essentially got a new boat at a used boat price."
However, the context was more of a $180,000 Beneteau 46 ready to go VS. a $90k boat and putting another $90k into it.

...Which made me queasy. And, for this thread, I think illustrates that the principal might be right, but price range at 10k may not make sense. Even for a would-be $30k blue water boat, thinking a few thousand will fix up a $8,000 fixer-up seems unlikely.

STEEL - That said, I wouldn't let it dissuade you from getting into ANY boat you can, and staying close to land as you continue doing your homework.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

It's doable and for many folks the preferred way. I'm a perfect example, granted my boat is just a day sailor. I bought it for the right price and have spent the last 10 months fixing it the way I want. All my parts have been used and very cheap compared to what I could've spent. I prefer to do things myself as much as possible, that way I know it's done correctly. I want to know my boat inside and out - that way when the **** hits the fan I know who to blame and what to do ASAP. When I purchase my next boat I will do the same again, no doubt!


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

From what i see one of the big things seems to be some are more willing to forgo things like a liferaft and other saftey gear as sissy stuff 

While the race boats i sail on dont really have much down below they sure as hell have secure beaths with lee cloths to keep from getting throw about


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## trisstan87 (Aug 15, 2010)

svs3. first off let me apologize for how I worded my remarks. To say you were dead-wrong was an insult to your inteligence and level of experience. Neither of these was my goal. 
However, I stand by my remarks of buying and outfitting a boat capable and WORTHY of voyaging. It is a fact that it can be done. But see, this topic is so easy to fall into slippery slopes and tangents about what you really do/dont need and what equitment is must have and what is wants. What the individuals goals are and what types of trips are planned. Also number of people sailing, age, location, the question of are you capable of doing work yourself or will you have to pay to have it done?... A plethora of side-subjects go in to this conversation. 
For someone like me, a minimalist, I would have no problems outfitting a boat for voyage for under 30K. Yet, I am comfortable without a lot of modern day gadgets and gizmos that make life easier, more comfortable, and sometimes safer, but that is a whole other can of worms.
I take offense when people attempt to shut down others ideas because they are not in tune with there own thoughts or beliefs. You say people should stop posting about falling off the planet and I say shame on you. For some of us, living in suburban America and working your whole life to pay taxes and eat crap from superiors, politicans, and a WHOLE OTHER CAN OF WORMS, is simply unfathomable. I myself do not understand how so many ppl do it, but then I see the numbers of Americans who are addicted to various substences and I realize how THEY are doing it. Or the people who spend their free-time following other peoples lives on twitter or facebook. What about the people who buy everything new and shiny to keep their sense engaged for another week? The unifying factor is that all of these things and everything else not mentioned numbs us to our dejected existence. We have no connection to anyone or anything anymore. We work to make money for people we never see. We eat things pre-packaged and made and never have to do anything more than hit a button on the microwave. We can see Mt. everest and the GBR on Discovery channel so why go there? Well I for one say that is not living. 
For those people like me, falling off is what keeps us motivated. Its what keeps us going.


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## trisstan87 (Aug 15, 2010)

Note: The Morgan Outislander is slipped in the Julington Creek Marina where I frequently visit. I have not been ON the vessel but I have walked all the way around it and feel like I have a good idea of the above-waterline, minus the interior. While their was some minor cosmetic and cleaning that needed to be done, I saw no signs of anything that would point to a big problem. Now for all I know the interior could be rotted to the core and below the waterline could be nothing but blisters, but I do not think that is the case. It is a nice looking boat.


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## kulokoo (Feb 19, 2010)

Interesting topic. There is the matter of safety and conservatism, people have different tolerances for risk. And then there is the matter of comfort vs freedom.

It seems there are small, easily acquired sailboats that can cross oceans if one's appetite for the freedom of the voyage is greater than one's need for comfort.

That said I have never done it. Yet anyway...


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## svs3 (Jun 23, 2006)

@ trisstan87 FWIW ... I think you confused my posts with those by SJ34. I am definitely of the school of thought that what the OP asked can be done provided that one has a realistic idea of what they are getting into.


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## fahnke (Jul 6, 2006)

jrd22 said:


> NO. Those boats that you listed are priced that way for a good reason, and offshore capable and ready boats are priced much, much higher for a good reason. With all due respect, just by asking this question it's obvious that you don't have the knowledge or experience to be thinking about buying a boat for a major crossing. That's not to say you couldn't try it, others have shoved off with little or no experience, and most of them are still alive. It really comes down to what value you place on your own, and your crew's, lives.


jrd22 is correct - and I agree, that with all due respect, the fact you ask that question speaks volumes about your lack of knowledge and naivete. You say "life rafts are expensive" - yes, they are and that shouldn't be a surprise to you if you are considering offshore sailing. Buying a life raft isn't an option if you are going to make an ocean passage. You "don't want to spend more than $3,000 getting her ocean ready"? Well, an offshore life raft - one capable of sustaining your life if you have to abandon ship, will cost you twice that. Welcome to reality.

One shouldn't look at ocean crossing as something to do on the cheap. It might seem romantic to cross the ocean blue on nothing but a dime, but you won't make it to the other side. In these posting boards I constantly see people dreaming to ditch their land-life and buy a sailboat to liveaboard, yet they don't know port from starboard. Others try to plan serious and quite dangerous passages in vessels that are barely fit for lake sailing. There are plenty of dreamers in here who need to taste a bit of reality before they lose their savings in a money-pit of a boat or lose their lives due to poor planning.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

It does seem a bit like an impossible dream. First, you have to have a fundamentally sound and ocean-capable boat. There are plenty of those out there, but the ones that are going for $10k are going to need a LOT of work.

On the other hand, there are $10k boats out there that are not going to need all that much work, but they aren't what most people would consider "ocean-capable." 

On the OTHER, other hand, people have crossed oceans in small open boats, so who's to say what is "ocean-capable."

That's where your own tolerances come in. A boat that you can buy for $10k, and make ready for no more than another $10k, might well take you across an ocean, but it is not going to do it very comfortably, there is going to be some risk, and you are going to have to be VERY picky about your weather windows. You are absolutely NOT going to be able to just go anywhere you want, anytime you want. You can count on being stuck here, or there, for months at a time as you wait for the right season to make your carefully-calculated dash across the deep blue.

It's possible. But it is going to require a HUGE degree of compromise on your part. If you want a boat that can take you anywhere, in what most people would consider "reasonable" comfort and safety, then you are going to have to spend more.


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

fahnke said:


> Buying a life raft isn't an option if you are going to make an ocean passage.


Of course it is an option -- not everyone feels they need a life raft to make an ocean passage, just for example Evans Starzinger and Beth Leonard: http://www.bethandevans.com/seamanship.htm#30.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

catamount said:


> Of course it is an option -- not everyone feels they need a life raft to make an ocean passage, just for example Evans Starzinger and Beth Leonard: Seamanship.


You can rationalize anything with its safe because we will work really hard if the boat starts taking on water  and we don't have a raft


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

The point remains that what the minimum requirements needed for making an ocean passage are is a personal decision, and that competent and experienced sailors can and do make very different choices.


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## BenMP (Oct 19, 2010)

Whether or not you can get a boat in the specified price range is going to depend more on the skills and dedication of the individual looking and the amount of time that they have to spend. You could most likely get a ocean-capable boat for half that price IF you can take years AND have a huge amount of time to look for it and then do all the work repair and outfitting yourself (not to mention finding a place to keep it for free while you work). 
It is like the old saying:
"you want it good, fast, and cheap? Pick two."


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## kulokoo (Feb 19, 2010)

*Big ocean*



denverd0n said:


> ...there is going to be some risk, and you are going to have to be VERY picky about your weather windows. You are absolutely NOT going to be able to just go anywhere you want, anytime you want.


I think this is true, but isn't it always true to a degree? Good boats and even great sailors on good boats are sometimes taken by the sea; or at least overwhelmed, shipwrecked, left adrift, or rescued.

It is a big ocean, and I think we pass safely only by it's grace, and our wits


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

denverd0n said:


> you are going to have to be VERY picky about your weather windows.


I don't think this applies to ocean crossings. You might be able to predict a weather window for a coastal jaunt or a crossing to somewhere in the Caribbean. I would not trust a weather window past 4 days. The only weather window you can trust crossing oceans is "bad" ones or rather "good" ones when trying to set records. The record setting Atlantic crossings are timed to be on the leading edge of big storms so there is huge winds without huge seas. To make the crossing in 4 days at the edge of a storm, though you will need to spend a bit more than $10,000.:laugher


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## CaptFoolhardy (Sep 5, 2009)

I hope the OP is still "listening".

There is one bit of advice that I would give that nobody has pointed out yet. I would caution against being so cavalier about sacrificing comfort for affordability. In particular you mention ripping out a deteriorated interior and replacing it with a camping cot and an air mattress. I'm sure that would be fine for daysailing or coastal cruising where you will be anchored or docked most nights. Offshore the most important safety priority is to have a happy, well rested crew. Fatigue breeds mistakes and mistakes breed disaster (or at least major inconvenience ;-). You may think "An Atlantic crossing might take three or four weeks and I can handle sleeping on a cot for that long", but when the tubular frame of the cot has collapsed because it wasn't designed for the constant rocking motion of a boat at sea and your air mattress is flat because when the frame collapsed it punctured the mattress and your sleeping bag is awash in the water that the forty year old bilge pump cannot keep up with because your refit budget went to other things and it's still 1300 miles to Horta you may have to rethink your position. And that's not a good time to do so. Now is.

You have been offered a great deal of good advice from many experienced people with many more sea miles than I have (disclaimer: I don't have a lot of experience offshore, I'm just repeating things I have heard real experts say). I pray that you take it.

Best,
Bob


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## HDChopper (Oct 17, 2010)

I am nube . and listing HARD ,,,thank you all !!!!!


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## svs3 (Jun 23, 2006)

CaptFoolhardy read my mind. One thing to bear in mind is that often times it is series of small mistakes that compound on each other leading to a catastrophic failure. Fatigue is one of the leading causes of both small and large mistakes. One should not underestimate the need to be able to be relatively well rested, dry, and well fed when conditions become bad.


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## edgesoftheearth (Oct 26, 2010)

Read 'Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere' by John Vigor. It will help you understand which boats are best and why.

Amazon.com: Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere (9780939837328): John Vigor: Books


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

As has been mentioned, it seems to boil down to one element--how much risk are you willing to take with your safety? Do you want to have the equipment needed to survive and allow someone to find you if it goes bad? if your not worried about that so much you probably wont buy a boat that can cross an ocean but _will give you a chance of crossing the ocean._

there are 148,300,000 sq/km of land on earth... 30% of total, so opposed to 361,800,000 sq/km of h20. that is a lot of flippin water, and I do not like the prospect of being somewhere in that expanse w/o sufficent means to survive/communicate.

I bought my boat for significantly less than 10k. fell into a pretty good situation. at a year into refit, ive spent thousands on running/comforts/a4 rebuild/elec/various other projects (w/o any hired help...except some beer) and havent even done the bottom yet. at this stage in the project i would not attempt a crossing--oh on a side note one thing to consider is _a boat that could cross 30 years ago when bristol very well may not be up to the task now_. Also I was allowed access to salvaged hurricane boats so many of the parts i have used were taken gratis from late model catalinas/hunter etc--had i not had access to these i would have spent thousands more--and the parts i didnt use and sold helped offset the cost.

for me-just me-i wouldnt leave w/o ssb/ais/eprib/liferaft/radar/solar/autopilot/h20 maker etc etc etc... pick any four of those items and you just spent a few g'siels....

sure people have been crossing the oceans for eons, and it seems a reasonable guess that more make it now than did due to technology--which i am willing to embrace and pay for. You can probably find a capable cruiser that can be upgraded w/time and cash and cash in that range, but not turn key ready. again it just depends on how much risk you are willing to take with your life, but for me, there is no way i can see getting a boat thats already outfitted amply enough for that price.


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

*Americans and risk:*
Well in general Americans tend to be quite fearful of sudden like accidents like people not going to the water park because a water slide collapsed somewhere recently and other silly stuff like this. When the next scare comes along everybody forgets about the water slides. To write a popular book about sailing you have to have some experience where you almost died it seems.

To put things in perspective, if China dumped their 1.5 Trillion dollar reserves and caused a dollar collapse, or if 3 small nuclear fission bombs were detonated up high to create an EMP which would take out the entire US electrical system, a large percentage of the US population would be dead within a year. These things can happen at any time. In fact, there have been several close calls which would have ended life in America as we know it which of course weren't and will never be reported by the media.

Somebody said there are people who have been sailing for 30 years who won't leave the dock if the wind is over 10 kts.

*Safety equipment thoughts:*
I was reading _Overboard_ at the book store where two boats get hit by rogue waves in rough 30 ft seas. On the first boat they did some really bad things. First of all they ignored the warning about the storm and headed in to it. Then when they got hit by the wave and their big front window broke out, two people got scared and quickly tried to abandon ship in to the life raft. They didn't make it in to the life raft and one of them died. In doing so they threw away the companion way door for the other 3 who decided to stay on the boat. The 3 remaining people on the boat didn't know how to work the bilge pumps or the engine (I think they flooded and killed it by opening the engine compartment door when the boat went up a big wave). Despite the missing door and the broken window and having no working pumps, they stayed floating for quite a while and were rescued. The second boat didn't make any bad decisions but their companion way door broke during the big wave and capsized and they started taking on water. _I was just thinking that except for the EPIRB and life jackets their safety equipment really didn't do much good for the first boat. The battery went dead and it took them like hours to figure out how to rewire the radio to a backup battery. And for the second boat it just wasn't strong enough for a capsize. And something happened with their life raft but I forget what. So, it seems to me that getting the boat in good shape and knowing what you're doing is more important than having a bunch of expensive safety equipment. Not that its bad to have, but I would rather put $3000 in to making sure the boat doesn't sink than buying a life raft, if I couldn't afford to do both._ Apparently this is fairly common: Yacht "Fleur" Rescued 3 Weeks After Crew Abandon Ship - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Anyway I'm not trying to do anything especially dangerous but I want to put things in perspective. Is driving for 10 hours in a car more dangerous than 4 weeks at sea in a well inspected boat without a life raft?

*Replies:*



> Hey Steel!
> 
> Where are you located? If you're anywhere near MD I'll hook you up with a company that has a lot of boats that match what you're looking for.


Hey thanks. Are those boats listed online anywhere?

You know what I'm looking for -- a boat that is cheap because it lacks comforts that many people don't want to do without, but still has a sound hull and rigging or can have those things fixed for cheap.

@johnnyandjebus
Thanks but 26' is just too small and can't hold enough supplies. But yeah for an ocean crossing at absolute minimum cost I can see where that would be a good thing to look in to. I'm trying to escape from North Korea, reach my destination in a month and then not need the boat anymore.



> But...there is also the story of the SV Silver out of Toronto about 6 years ago. An inexperiened sailor bought his dream "fixer upper" and a year later set out for northern Europe with his nephew. The kid survived but the uncle died when the old engine gave out in a gale, the pumps quickly drained the batteries, and the 'slightly' leaky boat flooded rapidly and slipped beneath the waves off Iceland at night.
> [...]
> And you don't have to go far from shore to build up the resume...


If I did that with an old unreliable boat I would CERTAINLY bring a life raft. In fact I probably still would even in well inspected boat. $3000 isn't all that much. If I get it used I should be able to sell it again near the same price. I won't be going far from shore for a while until I feel that I have mastered coastal cruising and rough waters.



> Not to thread jump but ........
> Just put in for a loan for the 38' Beneteau IDYLLE . take the winter to finnish her out and back to work for her . hopefully there will be enough left of her after her next years of service for me to enjoy her
> needless to say I will be learning all the way/time too ( She could make money still the Topper couldn't much IMHO..)
> 
> ...


Hey that's great!



> You will find coastal cruisers all over the world, and they arrived on their own bottoms. It's not impossible to find what you seek, but you have to turnover every stone, and look. BEST WISHES in finding a solid vessel to serve you well........i2f


That's right they did arrive on their own bottoms!



> I just spend consider amount of time reading the post advices. If someone is asking for specific length (30 or more), why would you try to point that men to 26 feet boat. I can not image my self in 26 living on board. Maybe for some of you ,trow away few thousand of dollars is nothing, but for most people is unimaginable. Most replay I see is "buy small, learn to sail and then buy bigger boat". Wasted time and money. I have dream too and still looking for cheap 30 or more that will grown with me. The most important aspect of boat is hull. If the hull is strong enough to make the trip across Atlantic, then rest of it is just a upgrade. Fancy rigging and equipment will not help if the hull will buckle up.
> The ideal would be a steel boat. Its hull my be rusty, but can be fixed. Patching glass in old boats my not be a good idea. I would start with cheap basic and upgrade slowly. I do not have money to trow away. I would do most of the work by my self and in process, I would learn about the boat. Passage across ocean take some time and I would need some place to store food and water.
> I understand that some of you my see my post offensive. It is not my intention to offend any one, but remind that if some one is asking for blue water boat, that person need advice on strength of a boat.
> I do not care if my future boat is dirty( it can be clean) or need some equipment. As long as hull is strong enough to get me across, I will be happy.


Yeah that's what I'm thinking. I like what you said about starting small just wastes money. Two or Three of us really couldn't live in a 26 foot. I need to have a good sized galley! Not some mini counter and mini sink that is only 10 inches! The problem with steel boats is that the interior needs to be gutted in order to patch and repaint the interior. Welding the outside burns off the paint on the inside .... After 20 years or so usually the inside will be having some problems from the salt water and everything is in the way preventing you from repainting!



> I have been preparing a 1967 Cheoy Lee Offshore 31 for over a year now, for an offshore trip. So far I have upgraded the rigging, rudder, and hull strength items like bulkheads, chainplates, and hatches. I've done all the work myself, and have less than $10,000 in a boat that is in the water now, and could cross the ocean anytime. No, I don't have modern electronics. I have an old Magellan 5000 DLX, GPS that could take me anywhere. I have 2 other old GPS and a sextant for back up. I have a good VHF radio, plus a handheld.
> 
> I could spend thousands on a liferaft, but probably won't. I'll focus on having the items and skills to fight fire, leaks, and other disasters at sea. Some people have warned me that I'm not spending as much money to prepare as they think I should. Those same people won't leave the dock when the wind is over 10 knots, or won't sail alone. I feel sorry for them.


There we go! *This is the problem: some people won't leave the dock if the wind is over 10 knots but they still give advice to others!*



> Most sailors will never venture out of sight of land.


Yeah sad.



> Boat yards and marinas are littered with fixer-uppers that the owners got in over their heads on.


I tend to get in over my head too on projects. I have to be careful.



> I take offense when people attempt to shut down others ideas because they are not in tune with there own thoughts or beliefs. You say people should stop posting about falling off the planet and I say shame on you. For some of us, living in suburban America and working your whole life to pay taxes and eat crap from superiors, politicans, and a WHOLE OTHER CAN OF WORMS, is simply unfathomable. I myself do not understand how so many ppl do it, but then I see the numbers of Americans who are addicted to various substences and I realize how THEY are doing it. Or the people who spend their free-time following other peoples lives on twitter or facebook. What about the people who buy everything new and shiny to keep their sense engaged for another week? The unifying factor is that all of these things and everything else not mentioned numbs us to our dejected existence. We have no connection to anyone or anything anymore. We work to make money for people we never see. We eat things pre-packaged and made and never have to do anything more than hit a button on the microwave. We can see Mt. everest and the GBR on Discovery channel so why go there? Well I for one say that is not living.
> For those people like me, falling off is what keeps us motivated. Its what keeps us going.


Wow you said that so well. Well I feel that way too, only worse. *The United States is like a prison without walls.* Most of it is an economic prison. When the subject of leaving the country comes up it's always something about money. My job, my student loans, my mortgage etc. Take somebody young like us. If they travel somewhere far away to an economy that's not isolated and artificially inflated, at first they will not be happy being away from all their entertainment and stuff. But then if their personality is right they will hopefully see that the things they left behind were really just enslavement.

There are more serious things involving secret warfare and government corruption in the US which you didn't touch upon, but I have taken those things in to account in my decision to get away from the US and enjoy freedom on a boat. The Cold War isn't over. The media reporting it is. We should be several times more worried and prepared than we were in 1970.

And thanks to everyone else who replied!

I have to be persistent because there are a lot of dream killers on the Internet who hide behind anonymity so there is no way to know who is telling the truth or not. 30 years experience could be used to tell a better lie.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I go out in liferaft required races all the time in conditions that make you glad its there










On of the bigger issues is these bad boys are running all over the place on the east coast and they are not looking out










I also have a pretty good idea what your going to find in the lower price range boats


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

trisstan87 said:


> Note: The Morgan Outislander is slipped in the Julington Creek Marina where I frequently visit. I have not been ON the vessel but I have walked all the way around it and feel like I have a good idea of the above-waterline, minus the interior. While their was some minor cosmetic and cleaning that needed to be done, I saw no signs of anything that would point to a big problem. Now for all I know the interior could be rotted to the core and below the waterline could be nothing but blisters, but I do not think that is the case. It is a nice looking boat.


First off, this isn't a personal attack. It's only to point out that you yourself have very little sailing experience and are at the beginning of your own search for a boat. I applaud your enthusiasm, but for anyone to pronounce that with a visual inspection from the dock that they 'saw no signs of of anything pointing to a bigger problem' tells us only that the observer doesn't have enough experience to even know what they don't know. I'd ask, " There's a Morgan OI 33 near me that looks like it might be a nice ocean boat. Any thoughts? They look like they might fit the bill, but I'd like to know pros and cons."

To the OP, good luck on your search. While you're looking and eventually prepping, take some time to sail on other peoples' boats. Folks are looking for race crew/ delivery crew all the time. I can't emphasize enough the value of 1:1 experience while you read and look at/for boats. It will lead you to a much more realistic view of what you think might be necessary for your voyage plans, including what constitutes a good sea berth. I'm also betting you'll probably see that 2x4's for boat building and repairs generally aren't a good idea. Given time and patience, you should be able to find a suitable boat and cross your ocean. We all need some luck, but preparation is something well within our purview.

_(sailing from N. Korea, I'd head to the beaches of the middle of Ishikawa prefecture in Japan.. do it in summer. Weather's nice, water's warm, and the girls are pretty. Shouldn't take long at all.  )
_


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## CaptFoolhardy (Sep 5, 2009)

Steel said:


steel said:


> *Americans and risk:*
> Well in general Americans tend to be quite fearful of sudden like accidents like people not going to the water park because a water slide collapsed
> ...snippage...
> I have to be persistent because there are a lot of dream killers on the Internet who hide behind anonymity so there is no way to know who is telling the truth or not. 30 years experience could be used to tell a better lie.


You need to understand that no one here is trying to kill your dream. We all share your dream and we are trying to help you realize it. It's just that many people who have already been there and done that see some aspects of your dream as being unrealistic. We are trying to help you recognize those aspects and adjust your expectations so that one day soon you CAN toss off your dock lines and set sail to wherever you want to go. Capisce?


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## ArcherBowman (Jul 1, 2009)

svs3 said:


> The first is, how much time are you willing to sacrifice? As others have pointed out any boat in your price range will require a lot work by you to be brought up to the condition necessary to safely under take a series of ocean crossings. You are essentially trying to trade time for money. The less you want or have to spend more time and ingenuity it will require on your part. Is your time better spent fixing an old boat for the next year or two or three or working hard and saving money during that time so that you have more money available when you do decide to buy? Will you have enough money after all this to actually set sail or will you have to continue to work and save for the next one to three or five years to have the money to under take this adventure?


This, I think, is the first, and most important question to answer. When I was looking for my weekender, I set a budget of $5000.00, but by the time I had compiled my feature list, I was looking for a $10,000.00 boat. So I had to go back and re-consider my budget. I found quite a few boats around the $5000.00 mark, and could have saved the cash. But to bring them up to where I wanted them, would have taken a year or more of my time.

And I have space and tools already.

I decided that, while I like working with my hands, I wanted to go sailing, not work on a sailboat.

So I spent $11K on the boat I wanted, rather than rescue a boat nobody wanted.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Steel, what have you found yet? Anything worthy of a peek for the rest of us?


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

LandLocked66c said:


> Steel, what have you found yet? Anything worthy of a peek for the rest of us?


I haven't physically looked at any boats for sale which are in my price range yet.

It's a long trip from Illinois to the South East, and I don't think the Great Lakes is a good place to look for what I need, especially since it would take such a long time to travel through the rivers out to the ocean if I did find something there.

At sailing school in Michigan we were on an O'Day 28. Those look like they're going for around $15,000 on yachtworld.com. But those look like they are real nicely fixed up inside. I could live with less, if I was looking for 28' weekender.

I have to find something that's cheap for a reason which I can either fix myself or live with! Two of those boats I listed in the beginning of this thread are cheap, and they have blown or broken engines. That seems like a honest reason for selling them at such low prices. If I had engine fixing skills, it might just work out for me! The 34' Steel Topper needs "minor welding" and "her rudder is currently being rebuilt". Well there could be potential deal for me there!



> You need to understand that no one here is trying to kill your dream.


"nobody"? How can you speak for everyone at once like that? Do you know all of these people personally? You could be right, you could not be, but there's no way we can find out for sure.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

steel said:


> "nobody"? How can you speak for everyone at once like that? Do you know all of these people personally? You could be right, you could not be, but there's no way we can find out for sure.


Well, I have to say I agree with the others. Haven't seen anyone saying don't do it, just questioning the realities of your budget. None of us are your parents. Do what you want and how you want. You'll run into the realities of outfitting/upgrading/repairing a boat soon enough. Many of your notions will undoubtably change. Nothing more, nothing less. It happens to all first time boat owners without exception. In the end, it's your show.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

steel said:


> I haven't physically looked at any boats for sale which are in my price range yet.
> 
> It's a long trip from Illinois to the South East, and I don't think the Great Lakes is a good place to look for what I need, especially since it would take such a long time to travel through the rivers out to the ocean if I did find something there.


The Great Lakes is an awesome place at the moment to search for your boat! The entire mid-west is hurting financially. I should know, I live in Ohio. Detroit and Cleveland are prime picking grounds. I'd say the only other place with as much to shop would be Florida. Go for it man, have you searched for any Morgans? They are pretty stout crafts as well! Oh, someone did mention an Out Island, that's right... Good luck either way!


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## svs3 (Jun 23, 2006)

Steel,
On your budget you should look for something close, real close, to home. Buying a boat in FL. when you live in the upper Midwest will kill your budget. Plus freshwater boats age much more slowly than salt water boats.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

steel said:


> It's a long trip from Illinois to the South East, and I don't think the Great Lakes is a good place to look for what I need, especially since it would take such a long time to travel through the rivers out to the ocean if I did find something there.


I think the journey from Chicago to the Ocean via sailboat may be shorter than the journey from a limited budget to a cruising sailboat.


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## CaptFoolhardy (Sep 5, 2009)

steel said:


> "nobody"? How can you speak for everyone at once like that? Do you know all of these people personally?


I sure do! 

No of course I don't, but I've read the entire thread, some posts several times, and I haven't seen anyone trying to quash your dream, just reality check it a bit. Also, I've been hanging around Sailnet for many years (don't let my join date fool you, that's just this particular login) and I know that's not how we do business here. I stand by what I wrote.


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

LandLocked66c said:


> The Great Lakes is an awesome place at the moment to search for your boat! The entire mid-west is hurting financially. I should know, I live in Ohio. Detroit and Cleveland are prime picking grounds. I'd say the only other place with as much to shop would be Florida. Go for it man, have you searched for any Morgans? They are pretty stout crafts as well! Oh, someone did mention an Out Island, that's right... Good luck either way!


Yeah I've seen a lot in Florida. In fact it seems that just about every listing that interested me was in Florida.

@jephotog
Yeah that's a good way too look at it - the trip from the Great Lakes to the ocean may be a lot shorter than the other choices. If I did find a deal in the Great Lakes area I would get it. I was just thinking that Florida would be a better place to start.

When I was looking up slip prices Louisiana seemed to be really cheap with the oil spill and Hurricane Katrina. It was $3 - $5 /ft/month instead of $10 a foot. I want to work my way to Louisiana either way. That way'll it'll be a straight trip down by car train or bus and I'll be right by the ocean!

I'm assuming that going down the Mississippi would require finding a slip each night or could I anchor most of the time? Then it would be like a month doing 10 hour days wouldn't it. Would I have to take the mast down too and motor the whole time?


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

steel said:


> the trip from the Great Lakes to the ocean may be a lot shorter than the other choices.


Steel the long trip ahead of you I was referring to was the one getting a ocean or coastal worthy boat for minimal money.

I do think the journey on a small budget is doable but not easy. I don't get the impression you know much about sailing or fixing boats. So when you hear stories of people buy boats for cheap and taking off keep in mind these may be very experienced sailors. Check out this:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...related/69160-click-watch-discuss-repeat.html to see people doing it on a shoestring. As much as they act poor and on such a limited budget they probably spent over 10k on this boat. The Yanmar motor itself was probably a good chunk of that cost. Note that even with 4 of them working every day all day it took months to complete the rebuild.

Here is another guy rebuilding what will be a beautiful boat when done:Pearson Triton #680: Home. Note that it has been 5 years in the process and I get the impression he has gotten poorer and poorer while building this over the years as a result of the boat, but has stuck with it.

Living it Louisiana is no magic bullet for costs either. Unless you are a waiter or have a professional job the pay is also lower. I lived there 5 years and looked at an Albin Vega for such an adventure when I got there. I think the boat did not look so hot and at $7k I felt it would cost twice that to make it something I felt worthy of casting off in.

While things are cheap in Louisiana, they are not in Florida. (BTW Florida is hurting probably as bad or worse than the midwest, at least as far as the housing bubble is concerned) Have you figured out where you are going to stay while working on the boat? What if the boat takes 2 years or more to get ready and another one thousand dollars or ten thousand dollars? You will also want some money in a cruising kitty before leaving. These are things to factor in besides where a boat is located.

This is what i refer to in the longer of the two journeys ahead of you.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

I know I am late to this thread and have a well known bias but let me interject that an Albin Vega 27 is quite acceptable for two people and I have seen decent examples go for anywhere from free to $20K in the past 12 months. Two, in particular, come to mind: Both sold in the Pacific Northwest for US$12K and either could have been taken around the world with no more than groceries needed.

But then you have to get over the "Forty foot ketch" prejudice.


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## sailing320 (Jul 5, 2007)

Wow! Maybe I am more conservative then most but I would be hesitant to go offshore in any boat that was not in perfect condition. Everything would have to be working and i would have to have plenty of spare parts. I think it would be hard to have fun having things break all the time and not having the money to fix them. When I leave Florida and go to the bahamas I hire a captain before I go to check my boat and safety gear to confirm everything is perfect. Maybe if I was better at fixing everything that broke, I would feel differently.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

steel said:


> Maybe it would be better to buy a cheap boat for coastal crusing and then get a $20,000 blue water boat which would be the cheapest way to get everything needed.


If you went into it with this thought your first boat should be an easy buy and a easy sell. It just has to float and be cheap.

It you expect to learn quite a bit during your coastal sailing years imagine how much more you will bring to the table for your second purchase.

If you already are an experienced sailor and know exactly what you want you may calculate differently.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Steel

Some random thoughts...

It can be done. But it requires knowledge and skills, which both can be learned.

Bargains with a blown engine are rarely in good shape in every other way.

Your interior comfort is important - but would be the least of your problem when bringing a bargain boat up to offshore standards.

You do not need a liferaft.

You do not need Loran C either - it's been turned off.

You should know your boat intimately - where everything is and what to do when (not if) it breaks.

You will find it easier to work on a boat where you live and know the area than in a place you are not familiar with.

If a boat has sunk it will take more than $3000 to make it sea ready. Not only do you have to fix what was water damaged - engine and all electrical - but if it wasn't neglected to start with it probably wouldn't have sunk.

Very few boats are designed and built to cross oceans when new. And the ones that are don't come cheap. Any used boat in perfect shape at a reasonable price (say under 50k) will need modifications for safety and reliability offshore. Any boat in your price range will need much more.

On a steel boat the through hulls are best made of Marelon rather than any metal to eliminate corrosion problems. Corrosion can be a big issue on a metal boat.

Fiberglass is a good material for an offshore boat. Doesn't bounce off rocks as well as some materials but you don't want to do that anyway.

You don't need a watermaker. A good one runs over 5k so it doesn't fit the budget anyway.

SSB radio is optional.

Everything from engine to sails to anchors to bottom paint to haulout and moorage costs more for a 35' boat than for a 30' boat - a lot more. If you lower your requirement in size you can increase the quality for a given budget and have smaller ongoing costs as well.

Seaworthiness has nothing to do with size - comfort being the biggest difference. Always take a capable under 30' boat over a marginal 35' boat.

There are many not on this forum but out cruising in Nor'Sea 27s, Bristol Channel Cutters, PSC Orions, Tritons, and other sub 30' boats affordably and comfortably. No boat of a reasonable size is totally comfortable at sea.

It was posted earlier but you might find this link interesting and informative - from someone who has circumnavigated twice. Atom Voyages | Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Good luck.


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## Dirtboy (Jul 13, 2009)

I you are willing to look at much smaller boats there are a few that will do the job. I owned a Westerly Padgent 23 for 15 years:

Westerly Pageant yacht designed by Laurent Giles. Information and advice on sailing and cruising

These are stout, little boats, with amazing headroom and storage. In fact, I think it had more storage than my current 28' Morgan. The Padgent is almost ocean ready from the factory. I'd increase drainage in the large, comfortable cockpit and beef up the rigging, that's about it. This is not a racer, performance is pretty good on a reach or downwind but twin-keelers aren't usually real good to weather and she won't point with a monokeeler. The two "fin keels" do allow for easy handling and quick respond to rudder input, she was always easy to tack. Westerly did make larger versions of this same concept and are available at reasonable prices as they don't appeal to the race crowd. If you find any Westerly for sale near you, check it out, good quality boat for the price.

DB


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

CaptFoolhardy said:


> There is one bit of advice that I would give that nobody has pointed out yet. I would caution against being so cavalier about sacrificing comfort for affordability. In particular you mention ripping out a deteriorated interior and replacing it with a camping cot and an air mattress.


+1 -- Proper sea berths really are important.


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## Piratesoul (Jun 22, 2008)

Get a copy of Casey's, Good Old Boat, book.


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## Piratesoul (Jun 22, 2008)

I think in all this discussion of crossing oceans, we've lost sight of the forest because of the trees. You originally stated you want to do a lot of coastal cruising first! Well me hearty, that is a lot more dangerous than blue water cruising. Enjoy your cruising TODAY while strengthening your vessel for that dream.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

*It's the Economey*

The economy requires new logic for buying a boat. In better times, many folks bought a boat needing fixing and spent a lot of money getting her near perfect as can be. Now they may have job problems or for some other reason have to sell their pride and joy. Maybe they cannot even pay the storage fees. The one place to sell a boat no matter what is Ebay. If you have a decent boat with no minimum bid, the boat will sell, but probably at ten cents on the dollar for what was originally paid. Go take a look and follow likely boats and see what they sell for and see if I am right or not. Whatever you do, inspect the boat before bidding and try your best to keep your emotions out of it. Several here have suggested the Great Lakes area. Generally the boats are in better shape because of the fresh water environment and there are some boats here that are recommended as ocean cruisers. I have bought and fixed up in the past, but I would never do that now because there are some really cheap boats in great shape and it would cost me much more to fix a boat with problems even if my time spend has no value to me, just doing it for the fun of it. If you did buy a boat here, you could move her to the ocean by way of the Erie Canal. Spend half your money on the boat and the rest on provisioning?


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## HDChopper (Oct 17, 2010)

Steel see these vids: 
PESTILENCE: Low Budget Guerrilla Cruise
Brian Shumate - Hold Fast

Very intertaining VERY low budget but gets your point across well , just look at the boat thay buy for 1000 bucks LOL ! and do it !!!couldnt really tell if thay crossed "the ocean" but just what thay accomplished was nuthing less than miracle....

Forgive me if this was posted here before because I cant remember where I first saw it in all my research...


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

HDChopper said:


> Steel . IMO go for it 5-10K isnt all that much to find out & maybe even win ...
> 
> No really I am of the same type of thinking as yourself , if the boat falls within my skillset's then I would give it a go ...( I have built & flown exp airplanes to say the least )..
> 
> ...


I looked at the Topper. It's really a sad story that brought the price down to $6500. She was taken out of the water in 2006 with bilges full and barnacles and just left there with no rinse off or anything. The outside of the hull was perfect he said. Now about 5 years later a 2 year old survey found about 20 thin spots in need of repair. There have to be at least 10 places that are rusted through from the outside. There is a 10 square inch area of exposed concrete (which is the ballast). The salt water just got under some spots in the paint and barnacles and went to work. The rudder is $1000 and sold separately. A local welder will repair all the spots on the hull for $2000.

So that's $9500. And it would still need a complete paint job and sand blasting wouldn't it? And of course the paint on the inside of the hull in the places that were repaired would be missing. The interior would need to be torn out in a bunch of places to be repainted. Steel boats usually rust out from the inside. This one rusted out from the outside, in addition to whatever happened on the inside. I wonder what would happen if you just welded a bunch of patches on the outside, but a couple of big zinc anodes on and just left it that way with the original paint and just sailed her until she rusted out and then sold the engine?

The Yanmar Diesel with 750 hours is worth just about as much as the boat.

There was a really nice Grampian 34' for sale at the same yard. She needs a paint job (with optional sanding), cleaning and waxing. For some reason the engine in that boat is completely rusty on the outside. I wouldn't be surprised if you had to use a smaller wrench on some of the bolts by the fuel injectors because of the rust, but I'm probably exaggerating. They say the engine turns over by hand, so it's not rusted frozen inside. If you don't care about how things look this is a great boat.

*I have pictures of both boats if anyone is interested*


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## HDChopper (Oct 17, 2010)

Thank you Steel ! ... yes I was in contact but after talking about the rudder with em , a few times he said it would be included with the price asked , and then the next min it wasn't included ? so I figgured to iffy of a situtation for me , yes I am allways thinking just patch up and use as long as possible and sell the eng & equipment left over to recoop for another try ..

Got my Eye ( only have one lol) on another steel boat this one looks serviceable for another 10 years good eng too ! ... but thay just painted the bottom & hull BLACK and Dark Blue (we all know what that means) But the price asked and the equip onboard with a nice eng looks like a good deal to me...
I will be in contact with them this week hopefully.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

steel said:


> *Americans and risk:*
> *Replies:*
> 
> @johnnyandjebus
> Thanks but 26' is just too small and can't hold enough supplies. But yeah for an ocean crossing at absolute minimum cost I can see where that would be a good thing to look in to. *I'm trying to escape from North Korea, reach my destination in a month and then not need the boat anymore.*


I thought you were on the Great Lakes? If you are looking at boats in the US why do you need to escape from N. Korea by boat?


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

Oops I meant I'm not one of those trying to escape North Korea.

And with a steel boat that has RUSTED THROUGH, any water that gets on the inside will get in between the patch and the hull won't it?

The inside of that boat is lined with wood. Will welding risk setting it on fire? And torching through the hull would cut through the wood interior lining too so the interior has to be torn out.

If I wanted to completely gut the interior then this boat could be fixed up pretty well once both sides are accessible.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

steel said:


> *I have pictures of both boats if anyone is interested*


Not that I am looking for a rusted out hulled sailboat, but I would be interested in seeing the photos of the boats you are looking at.


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## coreywoodworking (Feb 5, 2007)

*Don't listen to the naysayers*

First, read John Vigor's Twenty Small Boats to Take You Anywhere. He's a respected, rational writer that identified small boats with proper hulls for ocean sailing. What others have said about equipment is right on, so shop the used equipment chandleries. There are several in Newport RI (Newport Nautical is great) Bacon's in Annapolis, I'm sure a zillion in Ft. Lauderdale. and all up and down the coast.

I'm leaving next year in a Caliber 28. Not the best hull shape for ocean-sailing but I'm retabbling all the bulkheads and addressing each ocean-sailing weakness. Large enough to carry my stuff, small enough to sail myself, and remember that cost will be more a factor of displacement than LOA.

Instead of an expensive liferaft, I built my nesting dinghy; it fits on deck, floats fully swamped, even apart, and has emergency sail and paddles. The greatest weakness of rafts is that they can't be directed. You can be a mile from an island and float right by. Read Steve Callahan's Adrift, his account of 70 days in a raft.

Keeping it simple keeps it cheap. Capt. Fatty Goodlander doesn't have ST winches. Beth Leonard's 47' Topper Hermanson doesn't have elec. water pressure, including her shower. Dave and Jaja Martin refused refrigeration, and only used oars for their dinghy. keeping costs down. KISS!


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## coreywoodworking (Feb 5, 2007)

*Boats to Look At*

Look at Albergs, Bristols, Pearsons, Contessas, CE Ryders, Shannons, Cape Dories, Southern Cross, et al -- there's an author, James Baldwin, who has written extensively about upgrading his Pearson Triton for oceans -- he sailed from the West Coast to Thailand.

Look for a 1960-70s wineglass hull with a full or modified full keel and at least 40% ballast. They track and heave-to best. In early FBG boats, they used too much FBG because they thought they had to be thick as wood boats to sell, so hulls in good shape are bulletproof. I grounded my Bristol twice, without any damage.


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## sailguy40 (Feb 6, 2010)

Piratesoul said:


> I think in all this discussion of crossing oceans, we've lost sight of the forest because of the trees. You originally stated you want to do a lot of coastal cruising first! Well me hearty, that is a lot more dangerous than blue water cruising. Enjoy your cruising TODAY while strengthening your vessel for that dream.


I seen more then one person state this and I was not understanding. What are some things that make it a lot more dangerous?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Land


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

sailguy40 said:


> I seen more then one person state this and I was not understanding. What are some things that make it a lot more dangerous?


It is really hard to find things to hit in the middle of the ocean... that's one reason your navigation skills don't have to be quite as precise...if you're 500 miles from land, not knowing where you are to the last foot doesn't matter much. When you're 100' from a 2' deep rock or sandbar, being more than five or six feet off matters a lot more.


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## jorapazu (Feb 12, 2006)

sailguy40 said:


> I seen more then one person state this and I was not understanding. What are some things that make it a lot more dangerous?


as for an airplane stay away from land, is the worst enemy.


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## HDChopper (Oct 17, 2010)

You got that right ! altitude is your friend .... everything I get into seems to be saying stay away from land ?? 
Airplanes , Boats , keeping the bike on the wheels .......


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