# Total Novice Sailor - want to live aboard



## jjarman123 (Jul 3, 2017)

I know. You are shaking your head. I'm looking at retirement in about 12 years if not sooner (ha). Anyway, my plan for about 5 years now was to sell my home to my son and buy a camper and see the country until I die. I always wanted to buy a boat and live in the Caribbean but figured it was just too expensive. I got to doing some research and the costs are really comparable to the camping I wanted to do. 

I don't really know where to start though. I have never sailed but have sailors in the family willing to teach me and I am hard headed enough to learn it all. If it is just going to be me the majority of the time I am looking at about a 32 foot boat. I have a few other minor things I want such as step keel, non-teak (I hear it is hot when you are living in the tropics). Would like to plan to have solar panels and a water maker so I can not be in a marina that much. I live in south Mississippi so I am quite used to the heat and humidity but will want a small a/c I am sure. I want some area to relax in on deck, cockpit, and down below as well. 

Also, what are the requirements if I brought my dog? I have wondered how anyone would even know I had my dog.

Can you point me to some resources to help me decide what I want/need? I know with campers you can spend as much or as little as you want depending on what you want in a camper. Looks like it is the same with sailboats.


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## Robban (Jul 3, 2017)

Good luck!

I learned sailing an optimist when I was a kid, 15 years later with literally no sailing in between, I bought and started to sail a 28ft together with friends who also didn't have much experience.

What worked out fine for me:
*Took some calm days out on open waters and played around to learn how the boat handles, I remembered the theory from being a kid, but that could be gained from youtube as well.
*After a year or so I took a skippers license (called a coastal skipper over here, required for boats over 39ft in Sweden), learned a lot about the buoys and signs

What I learned by mistakes
* Seriously, look at the charts and don't get sloppy
* If anchoring, bring someone who can teach you how to do it proper
* Even a well kept boat can have the craziest wiring


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## jjarman123 (Jul 3, 2017)

Thank you so much. This is the information I am needing. 

Also, I really need to know what kind of "stuff" as far as technology do I need on board? Such as gps, weather monitoring, etc? I am very much a techno person. It is nothing for me to be in bed at night with, no kidding, my iphone, ipad, kindle and laptop all going at the same time.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Your question turns out to be one of the most common questions on this forum, so I would suggest that you do a search on Sailnet since there are years of good discussion and the experiences of others to draw from. There are also some good YouTube videos (such as this one https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4x5ZeAGz8Z_k0TzQO6fYIQ) that show some of the things that people go through who, like you, want to retire on a boat and go voyaging.

As Ajax (a SailNet member) pointed out in a similar discussion, "the way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time." None of us started sailing knowing everything that we needed to know. We all started sailing and continued to learn long the way. I have met people of all sorts of mental and physical capabilities, who have taken up sailing and become proficient sailors. Becoming a well rounded sailor may seem daunting, but taken incrementally its just not that hard.

From what I have seen, the most successful folks have been the ones who have been somewhat systematic about the process. In almost any field of endeavor with any complexity, there needs to be a learning cycle, an apprenticeship during which you learn one skill and then leverage it to build the next. No one would assume that they could buy a jet airliner take a few lessons and be able to fly around the world. I think most rational people would expect to start with a small plane and work their way up. But for some reason, often in these disucssions people assume that they can just go out and buy a big boat, take a couple lessons, read a few books, and then go safely cruising.

While there are people who literally taken a few lessons, read a few books and went out cruising, those that were successful going that route are far more rare than those who have done some kind of sequenced process over a period of time. Learning to sail and learning to cruise involves a lot of knowledge and no matter how much you know, there will always be more to learn. I suggest that you at least take the time to learn the basics then get out and practice. With practice will be come confidence. I have taught literally hundreds of people to sail in my life, and I will also suggest that it is a much harder, slower, expensive, and dangerous a process to learn to sail on a larger boat than it is on a more moderate sized boat.

I find myself saying this a lot lately but here I go again. We all come to sailing with our own specific needs, our own specific goals and our own specific capabilities. The neat thing about sailing is that we all don't have to agree that there is only one right way to go sailing. There is no more truth in expecting that there is one universally right answer about many aspects of sailing than there is in trying to prove that vanilla ice cream is universally better than strawberry ice cream.

One area of sailing for which there is no one universally right answer involves the amount of knowledge one needs to go voyaging. For some, all they need or want to know about sailing is just enough knowledge to safely leave the slip sail where they want nearby and get back safely. There is nothing inherently wrong with that approach. But for others, like myself, there is much more to sailing than simply developing a rudimentary knowledge of sailing basics. If you fall into that camp, it is next to impossible to learn to sail really well on a larger boat. By sailing well, I mean understanding the nuances of boat handling and sail trim in a way that cannot be learned on a larger boat.

While I am in no way suggesting that this makes sense for everyone, for those who really want to learn to sail well, I strongly suggest that they start out by owning a well used 23 to 27 foot, responsive, light-weight, tiller steered, fin keel/spade rudder (ideally fractionally rigged) sloop (or if they are athletically inclined then a dinghy.)

Boats like these provide the kind of feedback that is so necessary to teach a newcomer how to really sail well. Boats like these have small enough loads on lines and the helm that you and your family can all participate and learn together. Being able to learn and participate, the children will be more engaged and less likely to be bored and feel kidnapped. The forces on bigger boats are exponentially larger and so while the boat may seem like a more stable platform, the magnitude of the forces involved means a greater chance that someone will be more seriously injured if something goes wrong,and that the boat will be more seriously damaged in the kinds of occurrences that are more likely to happen when you are first starting out. The slower and easier motion of a larger boat numbs out the broad range of feedback that is so essential to the learning process.

Used small boats generally hold their values quite well so that after a year or even few years or so of learning, you should be able to get most of your money out of the small boat and move on to a bigger boat actually knowing something about which specific desirable characteristics of a boat appeal to you as an experienced sailor rather than the preferences of some stranger on some Internet discussion group. If you buy a boat in decent shape and do not fall into the trap of trying to upgrade or restore it, the cost to own that boat will be extremely low, far lower than the cost of repairing the first big mistake that you make on a bigger boat, and far less expensive than the cost of reselling that bigger boat that you bought by mistake since you don't have enough experience to pick out the right boat to suit you personally.

In any event, I strongly suggest that you take a few sailing lessons. If I were in your shoes, I would sit down and put together a list of all of the things that I would want to know such as: (You may know some of this.) 
•	Boat handling,
•	Boat husbandry, repair and maintenance
•	Diesel maintenance and repair
•	First aid
•	Heavy weather tactics
•	Rules governing entering foreign ports (especially with pets)
•	Survival skills
•	Navigation
•	Provisioning
•	Sail trim
•	Etc&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..

And then learn them one step at a time. With the appropriate mindset the process of incremental learning can be an enjoyable voyage in itself.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## jjarman123 (Jul 3, 2017)

Thank you so much. I needed to read this. I figured I was not the first person to ask this kind of stuff but didn't think about doing a search. Thanks for that. 

I really have no idea how big a boat I need/want until I get more into this and see physically how much boat is a 23 or 27 or 32 foot boat. Also, I am not positive until I get closer to the deadline (retirement) if it will be just me or if my son (he is grown and just starting his own business which actually would be one he could do on an island) or if I can convince my brother and sister-in-law to go in with me. So I am kinda looking at all scenarios but planning on it just being me. 

I'm glad to hear that the smaller boats hold their value better in case that is what I start out with. I am a little of each of the people you described. I am very methodical and take notes on what I read and learn, very organized and a little OCD. When I am reading articles or forums when I see a term I don't know I google it so I know what the heck y'all are saying.

That said I also fall into the court of those that want to know enough to get me out of the marina, over to where I want to anchor (but know how to anchor correctly and safely so I don't float off somewhere in the middle of the night) and then get back to where I want to be when I am ready.

From all I am reading it is basically the same mindset as living in a camper full time. You can spend $4,000 for a pop up camper to pull behind a small SUV or $40,000 fifth wheel to pull by a huge diesel truck or $120,000 for a tricked out RV. It is all in what you want out of it. Also, you can go out camping just knowing the basics to get you there and back or you can know how to do it all, setting up, leveling, satellite hookups, solar panels, true boondocking. It is all in what you want to do.

I think I will start concentrating on looking at smaller boats like you suggested. If it is just me sailing and by that I mean no overnight sailing just sailing to where I want to be and staying a day or 100, what size do you think I would need? I don't need fancy but I do want to be relatively comfortable. I am all about solar panels and I know the technology is only making them smaller and more powerful. When it is monster hot I need my AC even though I was born and raised in the south. We ain't stupid. Other than a comfortable bed and a stove and small fridge that's all I HAVE to have.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Sounds like a great plan. Keep in mind, though, if you wish to get somewhere in a reasonable amount of time, you CANNOT do this in a sailboat - they are slow moving craft, but they are comfortable.

From my point of view, sailing is not rocket science and you can learn to sail on just about anything with sails. I learned on a 27-foot Catalina, and have sailed boats ranging from 13 to 48 feet in length - the basics are the same. However, as Jeff stated, you must be a Jack Of All Trades in order to live this lifestyle on a reasonable budget. If you need help screwing in a light bulb, buy a trawler. Sailboats require constant maintenance - I know this first hand. All the other stuff is common sense and things you would normally do while living on dry land. Your car, however, to go grocery shopping, will now be a dinghy. But once you dinghy to shore, you'll need a bicycle with a big basket in order to bring those groceries and booze back home to the boat. Of course, this will also help keep you in good physical condition, at least until you get really old, like I am. Then you'll be to the point where you will sell the boat, lose a lot of money and move back on dry land - most everyone must do this at one point in their cruising lives. I have recently reached that point, so here's a link to my boat: 1973 Morgan Out Island 33 sailboat for sale in Maryland

Good luck in your endeavor,

Gary


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

jjarman123 said:


> I know. You are shaking your head. I'm looking at retirement in about 12 years if not sooner (ha). Anyway, my plan for about 5 years now was to sell my home to my son and buy a camper and see the country until I die. I always wanted to buy a boat and live in the Caribbean but figured it was just too expensive.
> 
> Also, what are the requirements if I brought my dog? I have wondered how anyone would even know I had my dog.
> 
> Can you point me to some resources to help me decide what I want/need? I know with campers you can spend as much or as little as you want depending on what you want in a camper. Looks like it is the same with sailboats.


I'm considering the same sort of thing. We've grown up in the mid-west and have a lot to learn even about the ocean. My wife is not sure and thinks that my fantasy could be just one of those crazy ideas I've dragged her into over the years. To prepare, I figured that I just needed to get her on a boat and let her see how bad (or good) it was.

A year ago we chartered a Cruise and Learn Charter with Cooper Sailing School and Bare Boat charters. We paid the extra for a live-aboard sailing instructor for the week. It was a week of daily hands-on sailing instruction for me, and our instructor threw in first-mate instruction for my wife as well. My course was the Canadian Yachting Association's (CYA) Bare-Boat Skippers course which covered everything that is covered in ASA101, ASA102, ASA104 and ASA105. My instructor is one of the instructors for their Navigation courses so I got excellent coastal navigation training.

One of the best parts was that my wife and I got to see how it was being on the boat for a week, sleeping on it ever night, and seeing how we deal with cooking, toileting and basic living. It was a great experience for us to actually have a taste of what it is like.

My CYA certification was accepted for a Florida bare boat charter this year and the charter operator was impressed with my knowledge and skills.

There are some great basic sailing and boating instructional videos available for viewing on Amazon Prime. I've learned a lot from them. I watch the one "Rules of The Road: Who has the Right of Way" often to refresh my knowledge of COLREGS.

For your members of the family who may say, "You want to live and travel on a sailboat? Is that safe? How does that work? How do you cook? How do you go to the bathroom? Doesn't it get boring" there are some cool video vlogs of families who sail and live-aboard. I live in the mid-west and we have lots of people here, who's only idea of boating is bass fishing from a John boat. I have to educate friends and family so they can visualize the lifestyle.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sailing+zatara+episode+1

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sailing+la+vagabonde+1


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## jjarman123 (Jul 3, 2017)

Thank you. Fortunately I have a family that will not only support my crazy idea but probably want to join me, lol. My older brother sails and even though his boat is on a big lake right now he has agreed to teach me. If the weather holds we are going Saturday to see how it goes. Maybe we won't kill each other.

I have never sailed a boat but have been on lots of boats in the gulf mostly. I'm pretty handy fixing things and know there is a youtube video for just about anything. I hadn't thought about looking at videos on how to sail. Great idea.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Having a pet of any sort can be a whole lot of hassle, if you are sailing internationally. Some places require a medical certificate no more than a month old, which is expensive, often.
IMO there is no way to have your dog on board without some official eventually seeing or hearing about it. How do you think the authorities would react should they catch you with an illegal pet that could potentially (in their minds at least) infect *their* island's animals with a disease like rabies? If caught, your animal would most certainly be destroyed, you would be subject to arrest, incarceration and would probably lose your boat. If you are going to travel with a pet, do it legally and put up with the expense and hassles.
As for the size of your boat, though it may be an unpopular theory, I honestly believe that if one wants to sail alone, then the size of your boat is only important to your own comfort level. However, if you secretly harbor the hope that one day you may meet a partner to sail with you, then you must rethink the size of your boat to include some of the basic needs of most woman. A few little things like an enclosed head, a nice hot shower (aboard the boat, not some dinghy ride or walk up the dock, to a communal shower), a good mirror and storage for her gazillion shoes, will go a long way to entice a *non sailing* mature woman to give it a whirl.
I highly recommend Royce's Sailing Illustrated as a basic primer. It covers just about everything one needs to know to safely handle a small craft in a fun yet comprehensive format. From anchoring to boat nomenclature and even splicing, it's got most of what you'll need for getting started, yet is still a good reference book for the most experienced of us. No preachy tome here.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> I have wondered how anyone would even know I had my dog.


They'll see you row to shore every morning at zero dark thirty with plastic bags unless it's a Portuguese Water Dog or a tiny dog that uses a "litter box". Ever have your average 90 Lb. Dalmatian, Lab or Golden look you in the eye after 8-9 hours onboard a boat ?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

jjarman123 said:


> I have wondered how anyone would even know I had my dog.


Real case: A woman posted that she hadn't cleared her cat into the Bahamas and now needed to fly back to Fla for while for a family emergency. What should she do, she asked? She was pretty much left with sailing back or killing and quietly disposing of her beloved pet's carcass, then flying out.
What would you do if your dog needed emergency medical attention and it was in a country illegally? Swallowed a fish bone perhaps, etc?


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Some dogs can be trained to go on a piece of Astroturf.

Lots of cruisers out here in the Eastern Caribbean with dogs. Some islands have stringent and expensive requirements. Lots of info here http://www.noonsite.com/ look up the country and then pets.

About 30 ft is the minimum for one man and a dog. Look at a Catalina 30 down below before you buy anything else. They are well laid out roomy for a 30 footer and sail pretty well.

I liveaboard and cruise on a 44 ft cutter [ with a cat ] and that is much boat as I want to handle as I am 69 now.

IMHO the kind of sailing we cruisers do is 99% common sense. Get someone who can sail to take you out a few times and explain things as you go. It is not rocket science. Mind you docking in a tight Florida marina with wind and current moving you sideways will need some pre planning and lots of practice. I have been a liveaboard for 14 years now and that sort of situation still scares the s*** out of me.

2 good books to have and to study are Chapmans Piloting and The care and maintenance of the aging sailboat by Don Casey.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Depending on what country and where you check in, customs officials can and often do come aboard your boat and check for contraband. They might and probably will see your dog. 

In terms of what size boat to buy, historically thinking had been that you needed around 5000 to 12000 lbs displacement per person to carry the gear and supplies needed for distance cruising. Above 12000 lbs per person the boat becomes harder to handle. That said modern hardware and sail configurations allow a greater displacement per person at the price of greater complexity and cost.

In terms of seaworthiness and ease of handling, within reason you want the lightest boat with the longest waterline length that meets your needs. 

Jeff


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

One comment about your need/desire for A/C. Basically you will be limited to use in a marina while plugged in to shore power. The typical sailboat's electrical system is just not designed to power even a small A/C unit. Only other option is to carry a portable generator and annoy your neighbors in the anchorage.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

If you go on You Tube you will find there are lots of methods of decreasing the sound of the portable generators using nothing more than a vented, wooden box and some foam insulation. Pretty big difference in the DB level.

Gary


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## jjarman123 (Jul 3, 2017)

Great advice from everyone. I really appreciate it.

So there is no misunderstanding I was not planning on sneaking my dog onboard. I just wondered what do they normally do when you bring a dog. What procedures do you go through. But I gather it is different everywhere so I would just have to check ahead of time.

Oh, and I am a woman so I know the things I will need and you were right about most of it. A hot shower and a good mirror. As for shoes, flip flops are my shoe of choice most of the time and I have lots of them, lol.

The AC question though. Now I don't know what I am talking about here but can solar panels and batteries handle a small air conditioner? I am thinking it would be a really small one since the cabin is not that big. I know in campers solar power is very popular and will run the AC. Just curious. I have not researched it for boats.
Thanks again.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

The technology for solar operated AC just isn't quite there, that it could be used on a sailboat.

Here is a good article on the limitations that make it unrealistic for land based RVs. These technological limitations are greater on a sailboat because you don't have a large flat roof to put a half acre of solar panels on.

http://www.technomadia.com/2015/02/the-almost-fantasy-of-solar-powered-rv-air-conditioning/


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

jjarman123 said:


> The AC question though. Now I don't know what I am talking about here but can solar panels and batteries handle a small air conditioner? I am thinking it would be a really small one since the cabin is not that big. I know in campers solar power is very popular and will run the AC. Just curious. I have not researched it for boats.
> Thanks again.


The short answer is NO. Without getting too technical, a 5000 BTU unit will require about 500 watts to operate. That's 40 amps at 12 VDC, so will run a typical battery down to 50% charge in about an hour or so. You will thus need seven or eight batteries to get you through the night and enough solar or wind capacity to recharge them all completely before the next night.

See my comment above about needing a generator.


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## Movingrightalong... (Apr 14, 2017)

jjarman123 said:


> If it is just going to be me the majority of the time I am looking at about a 32 foot boat. I have a few other minor things I want such as step keel, non-teak (I hear it is hot when you are living in the tropics). Would like to plan to have solar panels and a water maker so I can not be in a marina that much. I live in south Mississippi so I am quite used to the heat and humidity but will want a small a/c I am sure. I want some area to relax in on deck, cockpit, and down below as well.


I think you are on the right track size wise. I would look at 32-34 footers. If it is just you I would go with a traditional aft cockpit layout so all your below decks living space is in one area instead of being split up. Maybe a Morgan Out Island 33?



> Also, what are the requirements if I brought my dog? I have wondered how anyone would even know I had my dog.


In the United States? Very little. In other countries you need to do a little investigation. Some countries, like the Cayman Islands, are very unfriendly to visiting dogs even impounding and destroying them in some cases.

[quote e] Can you point me to some resources to help me decide what I want/need? I know with campers you can spend as much or as little as you want depending on what you want in a camper. Looks like it is the same with sailboats.[/quote]

John Vigor's book ' Things I Wish I'd Known Before I Started Sailing' and Mark Nichols book 'The Essentials Of Living Aboard A Boat' should point you in the right direction.


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## Movingrightalong... (Apr 14, 2017)

Oh and DC air conditioning isn't an option for a liveaboard. What you will need is a small portable Honda generator that you can use to supply 120V AC to a portable unit through an extension cord if you are going to be anchoring out.

If you are in a marina of course shore power driving a built in AC unit is the way to go.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Sitting in a marina in August in Florida you need A/C.

Sitting out at Calivgny cut in Grenada or most any other breezy Caribbean anchorage I am comfortable with front opening hatches and some small fans [ Caframo ].


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

To the OP ..Many of the old farts up here in BC sail the coast to Alaska in the summer. (easily spend 30 years doing that) and head to Mexico in the camper come fall. I did the Mex thing a couple of yrs but switched to 22 yrs of Thailand winters. (costs less too). Learning to sail the Salish Sea has got to be the easiest and affordable compared to the Caribe or the Med.(done both) And less crowded and more scenic. This is for your eyes only. Last thing we need is a bunch of gnarly old incompetents plugging up the inlets.


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## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

Capt Len said:


> To the OP ..Many of the old farts up here in BC sail the coast to Alaska in the summer. (easily spend 30 years doing that) and head to Mexico in the camper come fall. I did the Mex thing a couple of yrs but switched to 22 yrs of Thailand winters. (costs less too). Learning to sail the Salish Sea has got to be the easiest and affordable compared to the Caribe or the Med.(done both) And less crowded and more scenic. This is for your eyes only. Last thing we need is a bunch of gnarly old incompetents plugging up the inlets.


Color me intrigued...... and I'm not real old... and only slightly gnarly...but yeah, kind of incompetent at this point but getting better. Tell me more?


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

bblument said:


> Capt Len said:
> 
> 
> > To the OP ..Many of the old farts up here in BC sail the coast to Alaska in the summer. (easily spend 30 years doing that) and head to Mexico in the camper come fall. I did the Mex thing a couple of yrs but switched to 22 yrs of Thailand winters. (costs less too). Learning to sail the Salish Sea has got to be the easiest and affordable compared to the Caribe or the Med.(done both) And less crowded and more scenic. This is for your eyes only. Last thing we need is a bunch of gnarly old incompetents plugging up the inlets.
> ...


I sailed in British Columbia in June of 2016 sailing out of Vancouver. It was beautiful. The weather was cool at night warm by day. The people were nice and welcoming. We anchored in a couple of beautiful bays and woke up to the sound of loons and the smell of pine forests.


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

Here's my two cents:

Books:
-Sailing for Dummies. A great primer and reference. There are lots of good ones, but this is my favorite.
-"A Sail of Two Idiots" Well written, entertaining, and succinctly captures lessons learned (including pets). (https://www.amazon.com/Sail-Two-Idiots-Non-Sailor-Caribbean/dp/0071779841)

The Boat, lots to think about here:
-monohull or multi-hull
-Fixed keel, swing keel, centerboard? Different characteristics in various sea states, and different maintenance considerations.
-You may not need much space personally, but your stuff does and you don't want clutter, especially when the sea state is up. 
-How accessible are the engine and widgets? Can you get to everything without doing a gymnastics routine?

Training
-Bareboat chartering course (has been mentioned) gives you the ASA certifications and practical experience. There are several week-long live aboard courses around that would give you fantastic practical experience, networking with people who know stuff, and credentials that your insurance company will be happy to know about. 
-You mentioned you have sailing family members willing to teach. Jump on that sooner than later. Look in to local sailing clubs and see what they offer. Here in Tampa, Thursday night sailing at Davis Islands offers an opportunity for anyone to walk on to a crew for the races. 
-Buy a starter boat. Learn what you like and don't like, what it takes to maintain and upgrade the boat, and a thousand other things you haven't even thought of. You won't sell it for what you put into it, but you will have a better idea what you want and need in your retirement boat.


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## Tuna Driver (Sep 17, 2011)

All good advice, especially about learning to sail safely, pets and A/C. That said, we have a small boat we have restored and raced for ten years. In the meantime, we bought a 35 footer to see if cruising was for us. The intention was to get a fairly cheap boat and learn by doing. It introduced us to the more complicated systems, more difficult boat handling and more expensive upkeep of a boat we could live on and take anywhere. Turned out it didn't suit us. We sold it and took a reasonable loss. Money well spent. So I agree with the folks who say get a starter boat in the 27 foot or so range. It's big enough to spend some time on it and see if you like what happens. It will tell you what you really need in a bigger boat. And if you decide the life is not for you; sell it and it's money not wasted.


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