# FIRST SAILBOAT PURCHASER. NEED GUIDANCE



## lovebluewater

I'm new to sailing. I just took ASA 101. I only know the basics. I'm am looking to purchase, but I'm more anxious about purchasing than I am to actually sailing! I am gravitating towards a 30ft Catalina. We are not rich people , but could afford a used sailboat. My fear is purchasing a lemon! And to add pressure, my husband, while fully supportive of my dream to sail , he isn't into it. He says it is like watching paint dry. Other sailors are discouraging me from purchasing a boat of this size. They are telling me that for every foot increased in size, the cost of maintaining it increases exponentially.? I've been practical all my life, and a bargain shopper too. A friend told me " there is nothing more expensive than a cheap boat ! " I know to get a survey to help eliminate some doubt. I could use some guidance. Thank you in advance. 😊 I'd probably be sailing in Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana, and the Mississippi Gulf Coast.


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## contrarian

If your husband isn't a sailor the answer to your question is simple. Get a new Husband


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## boatpoker

Teach yourself a little about how to inspect a potential purchase before hiring a surveyor.
Catalina 30 is a good choice


Marine Survey 101, pre-survey inspection


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## scratchee

MAKE SURE you understand what the ongoing costs will be. If you haven't done so, check around for where you would keep a boat, and see what the monthly cost is for a slip. It's probably roughly equivalent to a car payment. Plus maintenance and repairs. So the major expense is not BUYING a boat but KEEPING a boat.

A thirty foot boat is doable, but seems a bit on the big side for a brand new sailor. Something in the 25-27 foot range might make more sense, and would also be less expensive to keep and maintain. If slip fees turn out to be a problem, you could also get a trailer boat, which would usually max out around 25 feet (I think; I have no experience there).

Taking the ASA course is a big step, and a good sign that you will succeed if you decide to. And it shouldn't take more than an outing or two for your husband to see the difference between sailing and watching paint dry.


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## MarkSailor

Much depends on how you want to use your boat. A Catalina 30 might be fine for some purposes, but too much boat or too little boat for others.

Do you plan to sail alone or just with your husband? Or do you want a boat big enough for guests? Do you plan to day-sail only, or are you aiming to cruise overnight, for a weekend, or longer? (I sail Pontchartrain, and there aren't a lot of cruising destinations until you get out of the lake, which would take a while on a 30 footer.) For daysailing as a couple, you could probably use a smaller boat, that would save you money on purchase, upkeep, and storage (in a marina, or possibly on a trailer). And if your husband mainly wants to be a passenger, the smaller boat may be easier to handle when you're essentially sailing solo. But if you want to take longer cruises, or to sail with more friends aboard, the extra size might make sense. A little more information about what you want to do with a boat, would help to give you more practical suggestions.


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## contrarian

If I might get serious for a moment which is something I try not to do I could give you a personal example.
When I bought my first sailboat which was a day sailor my wife didn't appreciate the way that I liked to sail which was pretty aggressive. Her first day on the boat with me was not a pleasant experience for her. Way to much heel and too wet. She never did take to that kind of sailing but what she did enjoy was spending time on the boat while at anchor or on pleasant sails when the wind was in the 5-8 mph range. Our little boat ( a 26 footer ) was too small for me to enjoy overnighting on. 5'2"of headroom down below simply didn't cut it for my 6'2" frame. After the kids had moved on and we sold our house to move into our Love Shack I should have bought a cruising boat but I moved on to what I thought were other priorities at the time. By the time I got around to buying a cruising boat my wife's health had deteriorated to the point that she could no longer participate in the aspect of boat life that she enjoyed. Sometimes in life you just have to take a hard look at what your priorities are because you never know what life is going to throw at you. Tell your husband to indulge you. He will never regret it .


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## skipmac

First, what are your plans for the boat? Do you just want something that you can take out for the day, enjoy being on the water and sailing the boat OR do you want a boat large enough to go somewhere, spend nights, weekend or more one board. Also where will you be sailing? On a lake, in a protected bay, out in the ocean?

Based on the answers to the above that might help you narrow down what boat you want to start with. One comment, if your husband thinks sailing is boring, toss him over the side and leave him. Only kidding. If something more exciting might help try taking him out on a Hobie Cat for a day. That's enough to excite most anyone.


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## lovebluewater

MarkSailor said:


> Much depends on how you want to use your boat. A Catalina 30 might be fine for some purposes, but too much boat or too little boat for others.
> 
> Do you plan to sail alone or just with your husband? Or do you want a boat big enough for guests? Do you plan to day-sail only, or are you aiming to cruise overnight, for a weekend, or longer? (I sail Pontchartrain, and there aren't a lot of cruising destinations until you get out of the lake, which would take a while on a 30 footer.) For daysailing as a couple, you could probably use a smaller boat, that would save you money on purchase, upkeep, and storage (in a marina, or possibly on a trailer). And if your husband mainly wants to be a passenger, the smaller boat may be easier to handle when you're essentially sailing solo. But if you want to take longer cruises, or to sail with more friends aboard, the extra size might make sense. A little more information about what you want to do with a boat, would help to give you more practical suggestions.


Thanks for the input! I am really wanting to sail out of Lake Pontchartrain, and into Mississippi-- Cat Island, Ship Island etc. But only after I get some experience and confidence to do so. So, overnighting is my eventual goals. The Hubby is sweet and will go along with it. I have another 2 friends who are really excited that I want to do this, and want to be part of my "crew" (LOL). One of these 2 is a very experienced sailor who does not have a boat at present, and has agreed to be my mentor. I also have 2 adult daughters -- one of which is excited to join me. This explains why I was thinking this size would be great. I was lucky enough to sail a 31 ft catalina and a 40 ft catalina in my ASA class. I hear what you are saying about a smaller boat size being more manageable. The thought of trailering a boat doesn't appeal to me. Even though marina's cost money, it would be worth it to me to be able to visit the boat in the marina and sail off in good weather with a guest or 2.

I guess my other question is -- it is worth it? I have also heard the 2 best days of a boat owner's life-- the day they buy the boat and the day they sell it. Are all sailing quotes so negative?


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## lovebluewater

skipmac said:


> First, what are your plans for the boat? Do you just want something that you can take out for the day, enjoy being on the water and sailing the boat OR do you want a boat large enough to go somewhere, spend nights, weekend or more one board. Also where will you be sailing? On a lake, in a protected bay, out in the ocean?
> 
> Based on the answers to the above that might help you narrow down what boat you want to start with. One comment, if your husband thinks sailing is boring, toss him over the side and leave him. Only kidding. If something more exciting might help try taking him out on a Hobie Cat for a day. That's enough to excite most anyone.


Thanks for the input! I am really wanting to sail out of Lake Pontchartrain, and into Mississippi-- Cat Island, Ship Island etc. But only after I get some experience and confidence to do so. So, overnighting is my eventual goals. The Hubby is sweet and will go along with it. I have another 2 friends who are really excited that I want to do this, and want to be part of my "crew" (LOL). One of these 2 is a very experienced sailor who does not have a boat at present, and has agreed to be my mentor. I also have 2 adult daughters -- one of which is excited to join me. This explains why I was thinking this size would be great. I was lucky enough to sail a 31 ft catalina and a 40 ft catalina in my ASA class. I hear what you are saying about a smaller boat size being more manageable. The thought of trailering a boat doesn't appeal to me. Even though marina's cost money, it would be worth it to me to be able to visit the boat in the marina and sail off in good weather with a guest or 2.

I guess my other question is -- it is worth it? I have also heard the 2 best days of a boat owner's life-- the day they buy the boat and the day they sell it. Are all sailing quotes so negative?


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## lovebluewater

contrarian said:


> If I might get serious for a moment which is something I try not to do I could give you a personal example.
> When I bought my first sailboat which was a day sailor my wife didn't appreciate the way that I liked to sail which was pretty aggressive. Her first day on the boat with me was not a pleasant experience for her. Way to much heel and too wet. She never did take to that kind of sailing but what she did enjoy was spending time on the boat while at anchor or on pleasant sails when the wind was in the 5-8 mph range. Our little boat ( a 26 footer ) was too small for me to enjoy overnighting on. 5'2"of headroom down below simply didn't cut it for my 6'2" frame. After the kids had moved on and we sold our house to move into our Love Shack I should have bought a cruising boat but I moved on to what I thought were other priorities at the time. By the time I got around to buying a cruising boat my wife's health had deteriorated to the point that she could no longer participate in the aspect of boat life that she enjoyed. Sometimes in life you just have to take a hard look at what your priorities are because you never know what life is going to throw at you. Tell your husband to indulge you. He will never regret it .


I am sorry to hear of your wife's changing health.

I couldn't agree more with not taking precious time for granted.


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## lovebluewater

Let's pretend that my budget is $20K. I see 30ft catalina boats in this price range. Most of these were made in the 1980's. A boat with the approx age of 35 yrs old-- sounds kind of worrisome to me. But, you experience sailors, tell me what you think?


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## lovebluewater

contrarian said:


> If your husband isn't a sailor the answer to your question is simple. Get a new Husband


 LOL!


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## lovebluewater

boatpoker said:


> Teach yourself a little about how to inspect a potential purchase before hiring a surveyor.
> Catalina 30 is a good choice
> 
> 
> Marine Survey 101, pre-survey inspection


Thanks.. looking over this now. It does help


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## scratchee

lovebluewater said:


> Let's pretend that my budget is $20K. I see 30ft catalina boats in this price range. Most of these were made in the 1980's. A boat with the approx age of 35 yrs old-- sounds kind of worrisome to me. But, you experience sailors, tell me what you think?


There's a whole magazine devoted to that type of boat: Good Old Boat. Mine was built in 1978. There are risks and issues, but it's a "known science" and thousands of people enjoy sailing on those classic vessels.


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## paulk

Catalina 30's are good for getting the most boat possible for the least cost.They're a well-known quantity, so if you decide to sell later there will be buyers. Based on your goals of weekending with family and friends it looks like a good match, size and capability-wise. Just be sure you are all good friends: there is not a lot of privacy on a boat - even a bigger boat. Boatpoker's advice is excellent. Read up on what to look for in used boats, so you can pick the one that's in the best condition. There are many books like Surveying Small Craft: Nicolson, Ian: 9780924486586: Amazon.com: Books , which would be worth studying. There are a lot of Catalina 30's, and their conditions can vary a lot. Their prices may not correspond to their condition. Someone may HAVE to sell one that's in really good shape because they bought another boat. Someone else may have one that's OK, but not worth what they're asking. After you've found a "good" one, and have had an offer accepted, get a surveyor to inspect it thoroughly. He or she will find things you missed, and will likely be able to tell you what they might cost to fix. If you think it's worth it, you can then go back to the seller and renegotiate. It takes longer than buying a used car because there's a lot more to a boat than there is to a car. It has to float as well as move under sail and power. It is great to have a supportive spouse, even if he's not as crazy about it as you. Have fun!


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## lovebluewater

paulk said:


> Catalina 30's are good for getting the most boat possible for the least cost.They're a well-known quantity, so if you decide to sell later there will be buyers. Based on your goals of weekending with family and friends it looks like a good match, size and capability-wise. Just be sure you are all good friends: there is not a lot of privacy on a boat - even a bigger boat. Boatpoker's advice is excellent. Read up on what to look for in used boats, so you can pick the one that's in the best condition. There are many books like Surveying Small Craft: Nicolson, Ian: 9780924486586: Amazon.com: Books , which would be worth studying. There are a lot of Catalina 30's, and their conditions can vary a lot. Their prices may not correspond to their condition. Someone may HAVE to sell one that's in really good shape because they bought another boat. Someone else may have one that's OK, but not worth what they're asking. After you've found a "good" one, and have had an offer accepted, get a surveyor to inspect it thoroughly. He or she will find things you missed, and will likely be able to tell you what they might cost to fix. If you think it's worth it, you can then go back to the seller and renegotiate. It takes longer than buying a used car because there's a lot more to a boat than there is to a car. It has to float as well as move under sail and power. It is great to have a supportive spouse, even if he's not as crazy about it as you. Have fun!


Thank you, I'll do that!


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## MarkSailor

lovebluewater said:


> Let's pretend that my budget is $20K. I see 30ft catalina boats in this price range. Most of these were made in the 1980's. A boat with the approx age of 35 yrs old-- sounds kind of worrisome to me. But, you experience sailors, tell me what you think?


If it's been maintained, a 35 year old fiberglass hull is no cause for alarm. I regularly sail on a friend's boat that is 50+ years old. But the hull is the about the only thing on that boat that's original.

It's usually the rig, sails, motor, and any electronics that cause you maintenance issues. A 35 year old motor _might_ still be usable if it's been well maintained. (I have a 25 year old diesel that's still going, but I've spent more on maintenance than I wish.) But it's hard to know the condition of an older motor short of a mechanical survey and an oil analysis. Both of those cost money, but might be well spent. If you go a little smaller and can use an outboard for power, those are a lot easier to update than re-powering a boat with an aging inboard.

A 35 year old boat is unlikely to still have original sails, but if it does you will want to replace them. There are sources of used sails if you want to save, but you need to inspect them carefully. The condition of the rig will depend on where and how it was sailed, but can be determined by inspection on a survey. Aging electronics are OK until they fail, but then won't be worth repairing. However, you probably don't need much in electronics to sail Lake Pontchartrain (there's nothing to hit but the Causeway bridge), and a basic chartplotter will get you to the Gulf Islands. The rest of that stuff is nice to have, but you can live without it if you have too. (I would get at least a good handheld marine radio, to talk to drawbridges and the tugs in the ICW if you get out of the lake.)

So age is not necessarily the biggest issue -- it's how well the boat was maintained, and how much you have left in the budget for updates after you get the boat.

A related thought: There are a lot of Catalina's out there (I have one of over 1,100 Catalina 320s that were sold). Many of them have owners associations that can give you information about issues specific to that model that you might not otherwise know to check. So check out those websites and Facebook groups to get more information about the Catalina 30 or any other model you consider.

As far as whether it's worth it: there is no economic argument for owning a sailboat. But if it literally "floats your boat" then it certainly can be more than worth it.


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## skipmac

lovebluewater said:


> Thanks for the input! I am really wanting to sail out of Lake Pontchartrain, and into Mississippi-- Cat Island, Ship Island etc. But only after I get some experience and confidence to do so. So, overnighting is my eventual goals. The Hubby is sweet and will go along with it. I have another 2 friends who are really excited that I want to do this, and want to be part of my "crew" (LOL). One of these 2 is a very experienced sailor who does not have a boat at present, and has agreed to be my mentor. I also have 2 adult daughters -- one of which is excited to join me. This explains why I was thinking this size would be great. I was lucky enough to sail a 31 ft catalina and a 40 ft catalina in my ASA class. I hear what you are saying about a smaller boat size being more manageable. The thought of trailering a boat doesn't appeal to me. Even though marina's cost money, it would be worth it to me to be able to visit the boat in the marina and sail off in good weather with a guest or 2.
> 
> I guess my other question is -- it is worth it? I have also heard the 2 best days of a boat owner's life-- the day they buy the boat and the day they sell it. Are all sailing quotes so negative?


First, a Catalina 30 would be an excellent boat for your plans. They are very roomy for the size compared to most other 30' boats, they sail well and, in my opinion, is not so large as to be difficult to handle. There are also lots of them on the market and with some careful shopping you should be able to find one for a reasonable price in reasonable condition.

But you should consider the ongoing costs and whether or not it will fit in your budget. First step, check the costs for docks or marinas in LA. Around the lake you might find private docks for rent that are cheaper so don't overlook that option.

Repair and maintenance is a big variable. A lot of people will toss out the rule of thumb of 10% per year of the cost of the boat. My opinion like any general rule of thumb in general it might be generally close to reality. A lot will depend the DIY skills of you and your husband. If you can do basic mechanics, plumbing, electric, etc it will cost you a fraction of what it would cost if you pay for all that.

If you do find a boat of interest this forum and others are GREAT resources to ask for advice and guidance.


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## Ninefingers

I've watched paint dry. It's a long way from that.


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## midwesterner

The people who are advising you against a Catalina 30, are only doing that because you're a woman. They are implying that it's too big for a woman.The Catalina 30 is a wonderful boat for family cruising, in lake water or the Gulf. 

It is true, that everything having to do with a boat is charged based on its size. A 27-foot Catalina will be a little cheaper to operate and maintain than a 30. But the Catalina 30 is an excellent size and a little more comfortable. The big difference would be between a 30 foot and 40 foot boat.

I chartered a Catalina 30 in the Florida Keys once, for a week. It is a nice Sailing Boat, and very comfortable to stay in for a weekend, or a week. There are plenty available for sale. A good survey will prevent you from getting a lemon. 

You can get an idea of the costs by calling several marinas in areas where you would keep a boat. Ask them what they charge for hauling out and launching a boat, power washing the hull, repainting the hull, storage in a slip, and storage on the hard (land). They will quote you prices by the foot. Work out some calculations for different sizes of boats and see what would seem reasonable, without causing you too much price shock.


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## lovebluewater

MarkSailor said:


> If it's been maintained, a 35 year old fiberglass hull is no cause for alarm. I regularly sail on a friend's boat that is 50+ years old. But the hull is the about the only thing on that boat that's original.
> 
> It's usually the rig, sails, motor, and any electronics that cause you maintenance issues. A 35 year old motor _might_ still be usable if it's been well maintained. (I have a 25 year old diesel that's still going, but I've spent more on maintenance than I wish.) But it's hard to know the condition of an older motor short of a mechanical survey and an oil analysis. Both of those cost money, but might be well spent. If you go a little smaller and can use an outboard for power, those are a lot easier to update than re-powering a boat with an aging inboard.
> 
> A 35 year old boat is unlikely to still have original sails, but if it does you will want to replace them. There are sources of used sails if you want to save, but you need to inspect them carefully. The condition of the rig will depend on where and how it was sailed, but can be determined by inspection on a survey. Aging electronics are OK until they fail, but then won't be worth repairing. However, you probably don't need much in electronics to sail Lake Pontchartrain (there's nothing to hit but the Causeway bridge), and a basic chartplotter will get you to the Gulf Islands. The rest of that stuff is nice to have, but you can live without it if you have too. (I would get at least a good handheld marine radio, to talk to drawbridges and the tugs in the ICW if you get out of the lake.)
> 
> So age is not necessarily the biggest issue -- it's how well the boat was maintained, and how much you have left in the budget for updates after you get the boat.
> 
> A related thought: There are a lot of Catalina's out there (I have one of over 1,100 Catalina 320s that were sold). Many of them have owners associations that can give you information about issues specific to that model that you might not otherwise know to check. So check out those websites and Facebook groups to get more information about the Catalina 30 or any other model you consider.
> 
> As far as whether it's worth it: there is no economic argument for owning a sailboat. But if it literally "floats your boat" then it certainly can be more than worth it.


Thank you. This is the direction my thinking has been going. It's nice to hear it's logical.


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## MarkofSeaLife

I call them "hurdles". 
Oh, you can't do that: it's too big, too expensive, too old, too new, you're a woman, you're a man, you can't leave your kids, your husband/wife won't like it, you must be a mechanic/electrician, you must have a Certificate, study, spend money... Etc etc etc. 

You can let a hurdle be a barrier. But there's lots of ways to beat them: run fast and jump over, or just kick the bastard down. 

You can do it. Just start jumping and kicking. 😊

Mark


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## sailingfool

lovebluewater said:


> Let's pretend that my budget is $20K. I see 30ft catalina boats in this price range. Most of these were made in the 1980's. A boat with the approx age of 35 yrs old-- sounds kind of worrisome to me. But, you experience sailors, tell me what you think?


A boat like a Cat 30 is a good first boat. Dont worry so much about age as condition - once a boat is 15 or so years old. most major systems start to become eligible for replacement. So a 1987 model with replaced rigging, sails and an engine rebuild may be more desirable than an all original 1995 model. That said most boats designed after mid '80s or so have nicer features and materials than before 1985 or so. A 1987 Pearson 31-2 is a much nicer, more comfortable boat than a 1981 Pearson 31.

My advice:

look for a late 80s early 90s model with a Yanmar engine
look only at the more expensive examples, boats with an upgrade history where its clear the owners have maintained the boats. Avoid any project boats, "good deal" priced, vessels that dont show pride of ownership
expect to spend $5k or so a year
have a hull survey, separate. engine survey with compression test and oil analysis, and rigging survey
take ASA 103 before becoming captain


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## Lanealoha

Another thing worth mentioning in regards to the Catalina is that Catalinas are still in production, even if your particular model isn't. Catalina has a great website, catalinadirect.com, where you can get everything you'll need to fix, upgrade and maintain your boat. My wife and I, in the last 4 years have gone from a Catalina 14.2 Capri, 19 Laguna Windrose, WWP 19 and now we have a Catalina 36. Part of the reason for the Catalina 36 was that it fit our budget, the availability of support via Catalina and their website(S) and was of the size we felt was reasonable for our immediate goals. Good luck!!

In regards to watching paint dry, it's similar until the wall decides to throw the paint back at you and all over everything else.....


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## emcentar

sailingfool just gave you some really sound advice for your search. My two cents: Do it.

My only concern with the 30 foot boat would be having access to crew since husband isn't interested. But you've got friends and daughters, you'll be fine. Yes, it's a lot of money. So are kids, dogs, vacations, and most things that make life richer and more enjoyable.

You are right to worry about getting a lemon. Boat buying is hard. But your budget is sound for getting an 1980s era 28-30 foot boat in good condition, so you just need to find those boats. sailingfool's advice here is great. Good luck!


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## lovebluewater

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I call them "hurdles".
> Oh, you can't do that: it's too big, too expensive, too old, too new, you're a woman, you're a man, you can't leave your kids, your husband/wife won't like it, you must be a mechanic/electrician, you must have a Certificate, study, spend money... Etc etc etc.
> 
> You can let a hurdle be a barrier. But there's lots of ways to beat them: run fast and jump over, or just kick the bastard down.
> 
> You can do it. Just start jumping and kicking. ?
> 
> Mark





sailingfool said:


> A boat like a Cat 30 is a good first boat. Dont worry so much about age as condition - once a boat is 15 or so years old. most major systems start to become eligible for replacement. So a 1987 model with replaced rigging, sails and an engine rebuild may be more desirable than an all original 1995 model. That said most boats designed after mid '80s or so have nicer features and materials than before 1985 or so. A 1987 Pearson 31-2 is a much nicer, more comfortable boat than a 1981 Pearson 31.
> 
> My advice:
> 
> look for a late 80s early 90s model with a Yanmar engine
> look only at the more expensive examples, boats with an upgrade history where its clear the owners have maintained the boats. Avoid any project boats, "good deal" priced, vessels that dont show pride of ownership
> expect to spend $5k or so a year
> have a hull survey, separate. engine survey with compression test and oil analysis, and rigging survey
> take ASA 103 before becoming captain


Thank you.. actually i was just about to sign up for the ASA 103/104 combo that is available in July for me. All this advice is awesome! It fits into exactly the direction I've been thinking! All this support puts my concerns in perspective.


Lanealoha said:


> Another thing worth mentioning in regards to the Catalina is that Catalinas are still in production, even if your particular model isn't. Catalina has a great website, catalinadirect.com, where you can get everything you'll need to fix, upgrade and maintain your boat. My wife and I, in the last 4 years have gone from a Catalina 14.2 Capri, 19 Laguna Windrose, WWP 19 and now we have a Catalina 36. Part of the reason for the Catalina 36 was that it fit our budget, the availability of support via Catalina and their website(S) and was of the size we felt was reasonable for our immediate goals. Good luck!!
> 
> In regards to watching paint dry, it's similar until the wall decides to throw the paint back at you and all over everything else.....





skipmac said:


> First, a Catalina 30 would be an excellent boat for your plans. They are very roomy for the size compared to most other 30' boats, they sail well and, in my opinion, is not so large as to be difficult to handle. There are also lots of them on the market and with some careful shopping you should be able to find one for a reasonable price in reasonable condition.
> 
> But you should consider the ongoing costs and whether or not it will fit in your budget. First step, check the costs for docks or marinas in LA. Around the lake you might find private docks for rent that are cheaper so don't overlook that option.
> 
> Repair and maintenance is a big variable. A lot of people will toss out the rule of thumb of 10% per year of the cost of the boat. My opinion like any general rule of thumb in general it might be generally close to reality. A lot will depend the DIY skills of you and your husband. If you can do basic mechanics, plumbing, electric, etc it will cost you a fraction of what it would cost if you pay for all that.
> 
> If you do find a boat of interest this forum and others are GREAT resources to ask for advice and guidance.


As for DIY--- The funny thing is, I always joke by saying our last name is french for " we wouldn't dream of hiring anyone!" We have done pretty much all DIY-- For Katrina, we flooded, and after boohooing a little, we saw our neighbors tearing out their walls. So, we asked them-- Hey, how'd ya take out your walls? They showed us, so we did it... Then we asked, Hey how do you put them back?-- they showed us, so we did it.. same with floors, lights, everything. I wanted a poolside pavillion-- no worries-- went to youtube-- done! looks amazing.

The boat will be new territory, but I have no doubt we can figure it out! I was just hoping the boat might provide some adventure and relaxation, and not a tremendous amount of work. This body is getting a bit old. I'm not afraid of work. I've been a working maniac my whole life. 


midwesterner said:


> The people who are advising you against a Catalina 30, are only doing that because you're a woman. They are implying that it's too big for a woman.The Catalina 30 is a wonderful boat for family cruising, in lake water or the Gulf.
> 
> It is true, that everything having to do with a boat is charged based on its size. A 27-foot Catalina will be a little cheaper to operate and maintain than a 30. But the Catalina 30 is an excellent size and a little more comfortable. The big difference would be between a 30 foot and 40 foot boat.
> 
> I chartered a Catalina 30 in the Florida Keys once, for a week. It is a nice Sailing Boat, and very comfortable to stay in for a weekend, or a week. There are plenty available for sale. A good survey will prevent you from getting a lemon.
> 
> You can get an idea of the costs by calling several marinas in areas where you would keep a boat. Ask them what they charge for hauling out and launching a boat, power washing the hull, repainting the hull, storage in a slip, and storage on the hard (land). They will quote you prices by the foot. Work out some calculations for different sizes of boats and see what would seem reasonable, without causing you too much price shock.


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## lovebluewater

midwesterner said:


> The people who are advising you against a Catalina 30, are only doing that because you're a woman. They are implying that it's too big for a woman.The Catalina 30 is a wonderful boat for family cruising, in lake water or the Gulf.
> 
> It is true, that everything having to do with a boat is charged based on its size. A 27-foot Catalina will be a little cheaper to operate and maintain than a 30. But the Catalina 30 is an excellent size and a little more comfortable. The big difference would be between a 30 foot and 40 foot boat.
> 
> I chartered a Catalina 30 in the Florida Keys once, for a week. It is a nice Sailing Boat, and very comfortable to stay in for a weekend, or a week. There are plenty available for sale. A good survey will prevent you from getting a lemon.
> 
> You can get an idea of the costs by calling several marinas in areas where you would keep a boat. Ask them what they charge for hauling out and launching a boat, power washing the hull, repainting the hull, storage in a slip, and storage on the hard (land). They will quote you prices by the foot. Work out some calculations for different sizes of boats and see what would seem reasonable, without causing you too much price shock.


At some point I will be hitting you for info on that chartered Catalina 30 in the Florida Keys. That sounds amazing, and totally goal worthy!


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## capta

While purchasing a boat is a big chunk of change, maintaining and mooring a boat can also be costly. If you (your husband doesn't sound like he wants to help) can not maintain the boat yourself, then those costs may be astronomical. 
Before you put out the money to buy a boat, be sure your budget can support it.


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## sailingfool

FYI the Catalina 30 is something of the generic production 30 sailboat, good construction, good design, good performance. You should not hesitate to look at other, less common, but similar quality boats, for example Sabre, Tartan, Newport as that increases the chance you will find the apple of you eye sooner rather than later.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## capttb

Don't rush in to ownership get some time on lots of OPB's, contact your local chapter of the WSA, the Dana Point branch is still going out racing keelboats every week. Ya never want to depend on non-sailor friends and relatives to crew if you can't solo, if you need someone to crew get some sailor friends.
About Us
Lake Pontchartrain Women's Sailing Association


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## SanderO

A 30' sailboat is doable if you are motivated, prepared to do a much of the maintenance as you can... the boat is in reasonable condition such that it can be sailed and enjoyed as you maintain and upgrade "systems" as need be.

Sail in mild conditions, all points of sail and get to know how the boat handles.. under sail and power. Learn and practice reefing, picking up a mooring and getting in and out of a slip and onto a dock. Do sail with other people and hopefully people with some sailing experience... and the more experience the better. Find help with your maintenance projects which hopefully are not complex and extensive. This work is almost "fun". PRACTICE safety!.. and get the gear for it.

You already know to have a survey and that will give you a heads up on the projects you will be undertaking.

Develop a realistic OWNERship budget including.
dink w/ or without an OB
slip or mooring
dink or launch 
insurance
fuel
tools, spares, parts,
replacement items.. sails, pumps, lighting, lines, cushions, fenders, dock lines, ground tackle
dishes, cutlery
sailing and foul weather gear, harnesses, PFDs \ MOB safety gear
hand held VHF
GPS plotter

Take advantage if YouTubes which offer help with almost anything.

Plan ahead... your trips, your projects.
Learn about weather and watch it and plan your boat stuff for fair weather.

Go for it!


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## Donna_F

We have a Catalina 30. I did the research for a year or so before suggesting that our first larger boat be a Catalina. There were a number of women in our club who singlehanded their C30s so if you're willing to learn and have the mindset, it's absolutely doable.

Realistically for a boat this old, $20K won't get you one that won't need a lot of work to make it safe to sail unless you're really, REALLY lucky, regardless of the make of the boat.

Sailing is one of those activities (at least for me) that provides an almost endless learning experience. Not just boat handling but maintenance, weather, radio, navigation, etc. You get what you put into it.

It sounds like either you shouldn't expect much if any help from your husband and you might have to resign yourself to either sailing solo or finding friends to enjoy it and you and your friends learn together, or he'll see how involved and how much you enjoy it and he'll fall in line.

(or, since I didn't notice that I was replying to page 1 of 2: what they said.)

Best of luck and I hope you stick around the forum to keep us updated of your decision and further adventures.


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## sailingfool

SanderO said:


> ...
> ......
> 
> Take advantage if YouTubes which offer help with almost anything.
> ...
> 
> Go for it!


This YouTub4e channel has a lot of how to sailing material.


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## Don L

lovebluewater said:


> I'm new to sailing. I just took ASA 101. I only know the basics. I'm am looking to purchase, but I'm more anxious about purchasing than I am to actually sailing! I am gravitating towards a 30ft Catalina. We are not rich people , but could afford a used sailboat. My fear is purchasing a lemon! And to add pressure, my husband, while fully supportive of my dream to sail , he isn't into it. He says it is like watching paint dry. Other sailors are discouraging me from purchasing a boat of this size. They are telling me that for every foot increased in size, the cost of maintaining it increases exponentially.? I've been practical all my life, and a bargain shopper too. A friend told me " there is nothing more expensive than a cheap boat ! " I know to get a survey to help eliminate some doubt. I could use some guidance. Thank you in advance. ? I'd probably be sailing in Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana, and the Mississippi Gulf Coast.


I think a Catalina 30' is just fine as a started boat! I never have even been on a boat that small having taken lessons on a 36', then sailing club 33/34' boat for 3 months and getting a 39' boat.

And the costs do NOT increase as much as cry baby boaters like to say. They only say that as an excuse to have an even smaller boat.

So the real question it seems is, do you want a sailboat or husband?


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## Donna_F

Don L said:


> And the costs do NOT increase as much as cry baby boaters like to say. They only say that as an excuse to have an even smaller boat.


Yes. The costs CAN increase as those of us who have experienced it know. Whether or not the cost will make or break your bank account depends on your bank account.


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## danvon

Just a couple of things I'd add to what has been said above (all of which is good advice). When you are buying a used boat, condition trumps everything. 

A boat that has been well-maintained but costs you few thousand more is WAY cheaper than one that has been neglected. Catalina is a great make to look at for the reasons that have been stated - great support and also tons of other owners out there. You might want to look at the 27 as well. For a couple with a few friends on a day sail it is plenty big enough & you can do 4 overnight if you want to. They are a bit simpler and considerably cheaper than the 30s and of course you would save a few $$ on moorage (only a few). 

The other thing is that you might want to look at the outboard models (the 27 came with one, not an option on the 30). An older diesel might or might not wind up needing a bunch of work and that is one thing that is not within most peoples' DIY skills. With the outboard, worst case is you get a new old motor and fix your problems for a few hundred. Having said that, talk to locals about your usual conditions. If you will routinely be in big chop or high winds, the OB is not so good.

For any older boat, the usual problems will be known and there's probably someone here who's dealt with them. Good luck!!


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## lovebluewater

capttb said:


> Don't rush in to ownership get some time on lots of OPB's, contact your local chapter of the WSA, the Dana Point branch is still going out racing keelboats every week. Ya never want to depend on non-sailor friends and relatives to crew if you can't solo, if you need someone to crew get some sailor friends.
> About Us
> Lake Pontchartrain Women's Sailing Association


Thanks!


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## lovebluewater

Don L said:


> I think a Catalina 30' is just fine as a started boat! I never have even been on a boat that small having taken lessons on a 36', then sailing club 33/34' boat for 3 months and getting a 39' boat.
> 
> And the costs do NOT increase as much as cry baby boaters like to say. They only say that as an excuse to have an even smaller boat.
> 
> So the real question it seems is, do you want a sailboat or husband?


Yikes! I hope it doesn't come to that. LOL!


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## rbrasi

lovebluewater said:


> I guess my other question is -- it is worth it? I have also heard the 2 best days of a boat owner's life-- the day they buy the boat and the day they sell it. Are all sailing quotes so negative?


I think this quote is only relative to power boats. In my experience, those two days are pretty well forgotten. When I'm sailing, the LAST thing on my mind is what I'm paying to do this. Yes, it is worth it.


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## SchockT

rbrasi said:


> I think this quote is only relative to power boats. In my experience, those two days are pretty well forgotten. When I'm sailing, the LAST thing on my mind is what I'm paying to do this. Yes, it is worth it.


I agree, I have loved all of my boats, and the only reason I have been happy to sell them is because it is clearing the way for my next boat. Even with our latest huge upgrade, letting go of my old boat was bittersweet. Of course it was also a bit of a relief since for a while we owned both boats and paying for mooreage on both..

I sold my last boat to another club member so I see it all the time. I smile when I see him enjoying it. My smile gets bigger as I step onto my new boat!

Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk


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## boatpoker

lovebluewater said:


> Let's pretend that my budget is $20K. I see 30ft catalina boats in this price range. Most of these were made in the 1980's. A boat with the approx age of 35 yrs old-- sounds kind of worrisome to me. But, you experience sailors, tell me what you think?


You probably don't know that the actual sales data from all boats listed on Yacht World is listed on soldboats.com when sold.

I have saved a list of all 18 Catalina 30's sold on the gulf coast since January 20th 2020. Shown are the date listed, date sold, asking price, sold price and the name of the brokerage. Most are close to your budget.
I can't attach a pdf here but if you email [email protected] I'll respond with that pdf.


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## emcentar

As someone who bought my first sailboat six years ago, I wholeheartedly agree that condition trumps almost all other concerns. That's the best reason to expand your shopping list beyond Catalina 30s to include other boats in the 27-30 ft range. I'm biased, but I agree that late-80s Pearsons (28-2, 31-2) should be on your list. When I was searching I also looked at a few Cape Dory 28s


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## Don L

Donna_F said:


> Yes. The costs CAN increase as those of us who have experienced it know. Whether or not the cost will make or break your bank account depends on your bank account.


yeah, what would I know (roll eyes)

I have a 43 ' boat and cruise full time. I have a friend doing same on a 30' boat. It has cost me 3% more.


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## SV Wind Waker

Really depend on what you want to do. But for sure bigger the boat more expensive it is...For weekend sailing and daysailing you really don't need a 30 ft. We have been sailing on a 21 with 2 kids  . A 25 or 27 will cost you less, easier to learn and reduce your financial risk if you don't like it. Also, make sure you do a survey. Even if you don't need it for your insurance you will have a to do list and an expert view on your boat.


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## boatpoker

Don't listen to the naysayers 
I surveyed a Catalina 47 for a fella in 2004. He had never been on a sailboat before. It took him two weeks to arrange his affairs then he cast off from Pickering in Lake Ontario. 1 1/2yrs later I got an email from him .... I'm in Trinidad having a blast, c'mon down ! John Carnie has been a friend ever since 

You only get one kick at this cat, go for it !


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## scratchee

Regarding boat size for a beginner, sailing a 30-foot boat would not be appreciably more difficult than sailing a 27-foot boat. It's maneuvering in and out of the slip and marina that could present a challenge, especially if sailing alone or with inexperienced crew. Not only do you have less clearance to avoid other boats and obstacles, but you also have more surface area for the wind to act against and push the boat in a direction you don't want to go. These skills can be learned, of course, but for a beginner it's a consideration when selecting a boat.


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## midwesterner

SanderO said:


> Develop a realistic OWNERship budget including:


Ehhhh, I don't know if a budget is such a good idea. It would be a good way to talk yourself out of it. A boat is sort of like that late in life, unexpected, menopausal child some people end up with. If you take too much time thinking about how much the kid will cost, you'll be tempted to drop it off at the back door of some fire station somewhere.

It's better off to just have the kid, or buy the boat, and you'll figure out how to pay for it as you go along.


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## SanderO

midwesterner said:


> Ehhhh, I don't know if a budget is such a good idea. It would be a good way to talk yourself out of it. A boat is sort of like that late in life, unexpected, menopausal child some people end up with. If you take too much time thinking about how much the kid will cost, you'll be tempted to drop it off at the back door of some fire station somewhere.
> 
> It's better off to just have the kid, or by the boat, and you'll figure out how to pay for it as you go along.


Yes and no.... I bought my boat when I was 38... first and only boat... it was new and didn't need repairs... only cleaning and adding gear I wanted like Loran or Sunbrella and stainless dodger. Over the first 5 or 6 years I spent a decent amount on "upgrades" which I thought necessary... like cockpit cushions... and eventually an electric windlass chain, refrigeration, a cabin heater and an SSB radio. All improvements were for living aboard and or going off shore... which I sort of had a goal. Were I not going to live aboard or sail offshore I would have spent less on upgrades.
I did not have a budget or know the cost of these projects but knew they would be costly but less costly if I did the work which had the benefit if making more familiar with the boat.

Most people know boat stuff is spendy.... even if they don't do a formal budget.


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## PhilCarlson

@lovebluewater You are definitely taking a solid approach to this and asking all the right questions. Lots of really good feedback here as usual. I'll toss my two cents in, feel free to leave change:
-Willingness and aptitude for DIY are a huge benefit. It will save you a lot of money, but not usually time. YouTube is your friend.
-A boat in truly ready to sail condition costs more up front than its fixer-upper sister. In the long term, it costs less.
-OPBs are the cheapest of all.
-Engines: Yanmar, Universal, Perkins... lots of them out there, parts are easy. Volvo; good engine, expensive parts. Atomic; good engine but they are all antiques, also I'd stick with diesel.
-Get an objective opinion on the boat, either a survey, or other competent inspection. Your experienced sailor friend may be technically competent but his judgement may be clouded by his wanting you to buy a boat.
-Keep up on the ASA progression and do whatever gets you on the water. The Coast Guard's basic skipper's license requires a minimum of 360 sea days. Use that as a fair indication of how much time it takes to build a solid skillset. Start a simple log (I use excel) to keep track of your days and notable conditions and events.
-Yes. It is ABSOLUTELY worth it.


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## midwesterner

lovebluewater said:


> Let's pretend that my budget is $20K. I see 30ft catalina boats in this price range. Most of these were made in the 1980's. A boat with the approx age of 35 yrs old-- sounds kind of worrisome to me. But, you experience sailors, tell me what you think?


I just bought a 1980 Bristol 35.5 in August and paid for a professional survey. He found that the original welded stainless steel tank was just beginning to rust at the the bottom and leak diesel. The owner replaced it, and the rest of the boat has been judged to be in good shape. There are always some things to fix or update, but I have every confidence in the boat, and hope to prepare it for a coastal passage to the tropics next year.

If you are looking at Catalina 30's (A good boat for your stated plans) search discussions on here, and other discussion boards, like Cruisers Forum, to read the debates about the different models of Catalina 30s. The differences are mostly in the type of keel: (Fin keel 5.25 foot draft and Winged shoal draft keel 3.83 ft draft) In these forums you will read lots of varied opinions of which is best, but it boils down to your style of sailing, where you plan to sail, and personal preference.

There was a Catalina 30 made from 1976 until 1986, A MKII made between 1986-1991 and a MKIII made from 1990 to 2008.The MKII and MKIII were available in a tall rig version, with a slightly taller mast that provides an extra 67 square feet of sail area. That difference provides some different sailing characteristics. The MKIII also came with a redesigned walk through transom, that a lot of people like for easier boarding and unboarding to and from a dingy.

The Catalina 30 that I sailed in the Florida Keys for a week long charter, was a tall rig, and I really liked how she sailed. 
A good review is the one linked below.









The Catalina 30 Used Boat Review


Reviewed in the July 1998 Issue of SpinSheet by Jack Hornor




www.spinsheet.com


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## danvon

midwesterner said:


> I just bought a 1980 Bristol 35.5 in August and paid for a professional survey. He found that the original welded stainless steel tank was just beginning to rust at the the bottom and leak diesel. The owner replaced it, and the rest of the boat has been judged to be in good shape. There are always some things to fix or update, but I have every confidence in the boat, and hope to prepare it for a coastal passage to the tropics next year.
> 
> If you are looking at Catalina 30's (A good boat for your stated plans) search discussions on here, and other discussion boards, like Cruisers Forum, to read the debates about the different models of Catalina 30s. The differences are mostly in the type of keel: (Fin keel 5.25 foot draft and Winged shoal draft keel 3.83 ft draft) In these forums you will read lots of varied opinions of which is best, but it boils down to your style of sailing, where you plan to sail, and personal preference.
> 
> There was a Catalina 30 made from 1976 until 1986, A MKII made between 1986-1991 and a MKIII made from 1990 to 2008.The MKII and MKIII were available in a tall rig version, with a slightly taller mast that provides an extra 67 square feet of sail area. That difference provides some different sailing characteristics. The MKIII also came with a redesigned walk through transom, that a lot of people like for easier boarding and unboarding to and from a dingy.
> 
> The Catalina 30 that I sailed in the Florida Keys for a week long charter, was a tall rig, and I really liked how she sailed.
> A good review is the one linked below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Catalina 30 Used Boat Review
> 
> 
> Reviewed in the July 1998 Issue of SpinSheet by Jack Hornor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.spinsheet.com


The original C30 came in a tall rig too and if you are in a light wind area I'd strongly consider it.


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## markmonteverdi

lovebluewater said:


> Thanks for the input! I am really wanting to sail out of Lake Pontchartrain, and into Mississippi-- Cat Island, Ship Island etc. But only after I get some experience and confidence to do so. So, overnighting is my eventual goals. The Hubby is sweet and will go along with it. I have another 2 friends who are really excited that I want to do this, and want to be part of my "crew" (LOL). One of these 2 is a very experienced sailor who does not have a boat at present, and has agreed to be my mentor. I also have 2 adult daughters -- one of which is excited to join me. This explains why I was thinking this size would be great. I was lucky enough to sail a 31 ft catalina and a 40 ft catalina in my ASA class. I hear what you are saying about a smaller boat size being more manageable. The thought of trailering a boat doesn't appeal to me. Even though marina's cost money, it would be worth it to me to be able to visit the boat in the marina and sail off in good weather with a guest or 2.
> 
> I guess my other question is -- it is worth it? I have also heard the 2 best days of a boat owner's life-- the day they buy the boat and the day they sell it. Are all sailing quotes so negative?


Answer to your question yes it's worth it. A big plus is that you will be going out with some one who has sailing experience. My first boat was a 1980 Catalina 22 ft. Now I own a 1985 Pearson 34ft that I live on. Best move I ever made . Fogot to mention I sailed the Catalina for 4 years. You don't know tomorrow's fate. So take that leap of faith now .


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## markmonteverdi

I think your makin


lovebluewater said:


> I'm new to sailing. I just took ASA 101. I only know the basics. I'm am looking to purchase, but I'm more anxious about purchasing than I am to actually sailing! I am gravitating towards a 30ft Catalina. We are not rich people , but could afford a used sailboat. My fear is purchasing a lemon! And to add pressure, my husband, while fully supportive of my dream to sail , he isn't into it. He says it is like watching paint dry. Other sailors are discouraging me from purchasing a boat of this size. They are telling me that for every foot increased in size, the cost of maintaining it increases exponentially.? I've been practical all my life, and a bargain shopper too. A friend told me " there is nothing more expensive than a cheap boat ! " I know to get a survey to help eliminate some doubt. I could use some guidance. Thank you in advance. 😊 I'd probably be sailing in Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana, and the Mississippi Gulf Coast.


g the right choice . Go ahead with your dream.


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## TakeFive

Assuming you don't want to trade in for a new husband , you might point out to him how deafeningly loud most powerboats are, vs. the ability to have nice conversations and listen to nature on a sailboat. It's definitely not boring because it demands your attention to keep sails trimmed. Maybe you should charter a powerboat once to have a basis of comparison.

How big you should buy depends on what you want to do with it. We started out looking at Catalina 30s, but ultimately decided to drop down to a much newer Catalina 250 for our first boat. Out kids were at an age where they didn't want to sail with us, but we weren't going to leave them for more than a several hours at a time, so we we didn't need the larger size for several years. Smaller size meant simpler systems and less to maintain. Ice box instead of refrigerator, outboard motor instead of inboard diesel, no hot water, single burner stove with no oven. Newer meant less to replace. We still had marine head and electric cold water, but both were upgrades by prior owner. After six years of fun on that boat, we sold it for what we paid for it and went bigger so we could do weekends anchoring out every summer.


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## MoonBeamEstate

Most all wonderful advice. We started with a small boat and only kept it for one season before we wanted to move up. I think a 30 would be fine to start. Draft will be important when you are looking for a place to keep her. For me the larger boat only really gets large, when you dock. My personal opinion is that the 30 will be much more forgiving as you learn than a trailer sailer. As to "we are not wealthy so we want a used boat" I can almost guarantee that the average age of the boats that are sailed on this site are 30 years +. Good luck and have fun, obviously your husband has not sailed if he thinks its like watching paint dry. It's fantastic that you got some more experienced folks to help you along.


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## lovebluewater

emcentar said:


> As someone who bought my first sailboat six years ago, I wholeheartedly agree that condition trumps almost all other concerns. That's the best reason to expand your shopping list beyond Catalina 30s to include other boats in the 27-30 ft range. I'm biased, but I agree that late-80s Pearsons (28-2, 31-2) should be on your list. When I was searching I also looked at a few Cape Dory 28s


anyone have opinions about hunter? I see a lot of them posted for sale also. And i do like the roomy cockpits and interior for the size boat. I don't know how to feel for the hunter with no backstay? But i am also not seeing it listed as a problem either?


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## boatpoker

lovebluewater said:


> anyone have opinions about hunter? I see a lot of them posted for sale also. And i do like the roomy cockpits and interior for the size boat. I don't know how to feel for the hunter with no backstay? But i am also not seeing it listed as a problem either?


Many supposed blue water dock talkers ridicule Hunters when in fact in general terms they are a bit better built than the euro production boats.They are not without issues (no boat is) but if it suits your purpose ... go for it.

What specific model and year is catching your eye ?


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## Minnewaska

I'm not a big fan of the late model Marlow Hunters, but the earlier models can be good value. Some Cherubini designed Hunters (70s/80s?) are sought after, for value, somewhat. One issue, which is not specific to Hunter, is there are so many different models and model/years that are all different, you can't paint the entire brand with the same brush.


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## lovebluewater

boatpoker said:


> Many supposed blue water dock talkers ridicule Hunters when in fact in general terms they are a bit better built than the euro production boats.They are not without issues (no boat is) but if it suits your purpose ... go for it.
> 
> What specific model and year is catching your eye ?


Not any particular year or length.. just around 30 ft. I thought I read that some of the 1980's models had some issues? But, I would think that by now, there isn't a whole lot original to an 80's model boat anyway. It would just depend on how well she was cared for.


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## Minnewaska

lovebluewater said:


> some of the 1980's models


This is also where things get tricky. Some of the model sold in the 80s, were designed in the 70s. Other models were presumably contemporary. I'm no historian.

I can't recall whether our friends owned a 33 or 36 Cherubini Hunter. Other than an awful non-skid replacement (owners fault), I had no complaints sailing with them on her. I wouldn't cross an ocean on it, but they were fully coastal and enjoyed it. Pretty affordable.

There is a storyline to the Cherubini designs that I couldn't run through. He is credited with several boat designs, while he personally only did a couple of them. Staff or son did the others, presumably under his supervision. Something like that. Not sure it matters. @Jeff_H knows the story better and can give you a better sense of why they are or are not desirable.


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## PhilCarlson

Hunters should be fine for costal and inland waters. Approach it as you would any other boat.


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## lovebluewater

How about any other boat brands to consider? Or avoid?


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## PhilCarlson

lovebluewater said:


> How about any other boat brands to consider? Or avoid?


That is getting into personal preference. Have you made a list of desirable/undesirable characteristics? That will help guide your choice.

Are you willing to put up the money for a well found boat, or are you willing to pay more over time in maintenance and sweat equity for a fixer-upper.

Honestly, as you are just getting started, your preferences are going to evolve quickly as you get on the water.

As for boats to avoid, they are the under-maintained dock-queens, no matter the brand.


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## SanderO

lovebluewater said:


> How about any other boat brands to consider? Or avoid?


This question is a bit of a conundrum. JeffH posted a list of suitable offshore yachts. There are many to choose from going back to the 80s.

You can't know what you need without some sort of experience. It's like a motor vehicle. All of them get you from here to there... but there are so many types to choose from... mini, compact, mid size, large sedan, station wagon, hatch back, compact SUV, full size SUV, convertible top, sports car, pick up truck (2 and 4 door), van, caravan.. and even motor cycles.

So... begin with your basic interior accommodation needs... this will include tanks and storage space. Bigger costs more so try to consider the smallest interior which is comfortable for you. And same for the cockpit.

Then you need to look at technical aspects... hull shape, keel form, steering system-rudder, sail plan and rig, anchoring system, running and standing rigging and deck hardware.

But in the end you can't evaluate anything unless you understand what you are looking at. You have some learning to do... and no one can do it for you. Sure an "expert" can lead you to a good boat.... using his *experience *and *knowledge *and his *assumptions *what would work for you. But then it's up to you... and you'll learn by "trial and error".


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## lovebluewater

PhilCarlson said:


> That is getting into personal preference. Have you made a list of desirable/undesirable characteristics? That will help guide your choice.
> 
> Are you willing to put up the money for a well found boat, or are you willing to pay more over time in maintenance and sweat equity for a fixer-upper.
> 
> Honestly, as you are just getting started, your preferences are going to evolve quickly as you get on the water.
> 
> As for boats to avoid, they are the under-maintained dock-queens, no matter the brand.


 Probably somewhere in between. Here also lies the problem.. .. finding that initial sweet spot of cost/value/. .. sooner to purchase or save up for possibly a better boat for later? .. and let's not forget over thinking vs underthinking?


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## SanderO

lovebluewater said:


> Probably somewhere in between. Here also lies the problem.. .. finding that initial sweet spot of cost/value/. .. sooner to purchase or save up for possibly a better boat for later? .. and let's not forget over thinking vs underthinking?


as far as "upgades" and systems go.... make a list of what you feel you need... eg pressure hot water... AP... stall shower... etc... what you don't want... eg tiller, hank on sails etc... anchoring is extremely important... you'll probably want a windlass with chain.

MAKE lists...


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## PhilCarlson

@lovebluewater so I'll discuss a plan that worked well for me. Maybe it will help you shape yours.

Consider treating your first boat as a learning lab. Not the one to sail for years and years, or to entertain lots of people or take more than a long weekend trip. You're going to buy it, learn to sail, maintain, upgrade and repair it. Then sell it after maybe 4 years once you have developed a solid foundation and have a better idea what you like.

I purchased my first boat, a 26' keel boat in 2014, when I had about 12 hours of sailing experience (including about 6 hours of actual instruction), and had read Sailing for Dummies and a couple of other books (absolutely no exaggeration).I took my first ASA course in 2017 with about 280 sea days experience. The takeaway: You can spend money on sailing classes or spend money on a boat and learn to sail. There are some obvious advantages and disadvantages to each method.

When I purchased, I understood basic boat characteristics. I knew I wanted a fin keel, I knew I preferred a skeg. I thought I wanted a wheel but am happy with the tiller I ended up with. I did not understand the finer points (or even the rougher points) of assessing a boat's condition. As a result I purchased unidentified problems I would describe a deal breakers now. However, these problems forced me to make repairs, and learn. The takeaway: The boat will teach you, and she will teach you at her pace, not yours.

Your boat is not a financial investment, it is an expense. My purchase price was $1,500, including the trailer she sat on. I sold the trailer for $800 (roughly the cost of the chartplotter). When I sell in the next year or so, I plan to ask ~$7,500 (I won't get that). I've replaced all of the bulkheads, replaced running rigging, chainplates, floor, made deck repairs, rebedded almost everything, added a mainsheet traveler, run all the lines to the cockpit, added a deck winch, done a complete electrical refit and upgrade, rebuilt the fresh water system, and replaced the cushions, and a zillion other little things. The standing rigging is on this spring's to do list. I paid others to make the cushions and and laser cut the chain plates to my specs. I will NOT make any money on this boat, I will not even come close to breaking even. The takeaway: Your return on investment is in the knowledge, experience, and skills you will accumulate along the way.

Consider a 25-27' keel boat. Small enough to handle short or single hand. Big enough to comfortably take 4-5 guests out for a daysail. Keep systems to a minimum. You don't need hot running water, or refrigeration. You're learning to sail and keep the boat happy. You want an inboard diesel, not because that is what your 25-27' boat requires (an outboard will suffice). You want the inboard because the next larger boat will have one, and you want to understand that system before you upgrade. Remember, it's a learning lab.

The best way to learn sailing is to go sailing. The best way to sail whenever you want is to own the boat.

I hope this is helpful. It's just my experience and there are many more (and more experienced) perspectives here.


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## lovebluewater

I agree with this thinking for sure. I admire the work you did and i can see where.you gained a lot of education.


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## SanderO

PhilCarlson said:


> @lovebluewater so I'll discuss a plan that worked well for me. Maybe it will help you shape yours.
> 
> Consider treating your first boat as a learning lab. Not the one to sail for years and years, or to entertain lots of people or take more than a long weekend trip. You're going to buy it, learn to sail, maintain, upgrade and repair it. Then sell it after maybe 4 years once you have developed a solid foundation and have a better idea what you like.
> 
> I purchased my first boat, a 26' keel boat in 2014, when I had about 12 hours of sailing experience (including about 6 hours of actual instruction), and had read Sailing for Dummies and a couple of other books (absolutely no exaggeration).I took my first ASA course in 2017 with about 280 sea days experience. The takeaway: You can spend money on sailing classes or spend money on a boat and learn to sail. There are some obvious advantages and disadvantages to each method.
> 
> When I purchased, I understood basic boat characteristics. I knew I wanted a fin keel, I knew I preferred a skeg. I thought I wanted a wheel but am happy with the tiller I ended up with. I did not understand the finer points (or even the rougher points) of assessing a boat's condition. As a result I purchased unidentified problems I would describe a deal breakers now. However, these problems forced me to make repairs, and learn. The takeaway: The boat will teach you, and she will teach you at her pace, not yours.
> 
> Your boat is not a financial investment, it is an expense. My purchase price was $1,500, including the trailer she sat on. I sold the trailer for $800 (roughly the cost of the chartplotter). When I sell in the next year or so, I plan to ask ~$7,500 (I won't get that). I've replaced all of the bulkheads, replaced running rigging, chainplates, floor, made deck repairs, rebedded almost everything, added a mainsheet traveler, run all the lines to the cockpit, added a deck winch, done a complete electrical refit and upgrade, rebuilt the fresh water system, and replaced the cushions, and a zillion other little things. The standing rigging is on this spring's to do list. I paid others to make the cushions and and laser cut the chain plates to my specs. I will NOT make any money on this boat, I will not even come close to breaking even. The takeaway: Your return on investment is in the knowledge, experience, and skills you will accumulate along the way.
> 
> Consider a 25-27' keel boat. Small enough to handle short or single hand. Big enough to comfortably take 4-5 guests out for a daysail. Keep systems to a minimum. You don't need hot running water, or refrigeration. You're learning to sail and keep the boat happy. You want an inboard diesel, not because that is what your 25-27' boat requires (an outboard will suffice). You want the inboard because the next larger boat will have one, and you want to understand that system before you upgrade. Remember, it's a learning lab.
> 
> The best way to learn sailing is to go sailing. The best way to sail whenever you want is to own the boat.
> 
> I hope this is helpful. It's just my experience and there are many more (and more experienced) perspectives here.


I like this approach... however...
My "journey" was different.
I started out with little knowledge and minuscule experience. I had a best friend (RIP) who was there to help me every step of the way. My first boat was to be a share with him... but it didn't work out.
I decided to proceed anyway and looked at used boats in the lower to mid 30s, None appealed to me as much as the two Contests I was exposed to.
My budget was driven by the "sharing deal" which required me to put up 50% which as I recall was between $60k and $75k.... admittedly a good budget for a starter boat. The used boats I saw were much less than this. But I could see with each of them a lot of spendy immediate upgrades.
I got a good deal with Contest which was fully equipped and ready to sail.... and new. I still had a survey done... which it passed of course. The surveyor clued me in to the fact that the boat was sound but needed upgrades and equipment for offshore. I like the idea that everything would be new from the get go. I bit the bullet. Financed half the purchase price and so my learning and upgrading began. Jack sailed with me every weekend that first summer.
I sailed the boat whenever I could... from early Spring until late Fall... in any and all weather... even once snowing when I was sailing back to winter storage.
As I learned the boat and how to sail it... I figured out the upgrades I needed and the sequence to do them. I attended sailing class and navigation, piloting and meteorology course as the NY Hayden Planetarium.
I took 5 years to complete the upgrades for "sailing off". This included:
below decks AP - Alpha 3000​Loran C and then one of the first GPS (Trimble NavTrac)​SSB​RADAR​battery monitor - Cruising Equipment w/ smart regulator​Gas sensor & solenoid​refrigeration (engine drive)​cockpit cushions​dodger upgrade to stainless steel bows & Sunbrella​electric windlass & chain​removable inner fore stay​staysail mast track​Dutchman sail flaking system​Pro Furl roller furling​storm sails​replaced alum stanchion bases w/ stainless steel​gale rider​safety gear: jack lines, harnesses, MOB pole, life sling, horseshoe, PFDs, strobes, EPIRB, dye marker etc.​foul weather gear​life raft​dinghy & OB​2 solar panels​Espar diesel forced air heating​Groco Model K head​cockpit shower​various interior joinery projects / galley, head, aft cabin, V berth and salon storage​​I continued upgrades while cruising offshore and after I returned and sailed locally again in LIS and Southern NE... Many of the upgrades were replaced and there were repairs and maintenance of course:
new sails​4 new winches (total 7 on deck)​new windlass​anchors & new chain​engine repairs including added racors, high output alt w/ smart regulator)​Electric (Link20 monitor, 8D AGMs, Optima start batt, new mains wiring, switches, fusing, new alternator, regularor)​LED lighting - cabin & navigation​new 110v system w/ 5 sockets​running rigging​standing rigging & life lines​teak grates for cockpit and shower​teak slat benches for cockpit​dodger canvas​cockpit canvas​interior upholstery​more interior joinery (re built nav station)​electronics (GPS-MFD plotters, radar, VHF, AIS, fluxgate compass)​​And things I can't remember.

I have owned only one boat. It's a quality boat from a builder of excellent reputation and the resale value is good... but one never recovers the cost of upgrades... which were labors of love and necessary IMO.

Lots of money... lots of learning... lots of experiences which were priceless... and money well spent... and I have a beautiful boat to show for it!
​


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## lovebluewater

lovebluewater said:


> I agree with this thinking for sure. I admire the work you did and i can see where.you gained a lot of education.


That amount of work for me isn't exactly what I'm looking


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## lovebluewater

Help!... So a hunter 31 1984 has caught my eye. Enough so that I have spoken to the owner. For what it's worth, the owner seemed honest, and told me the few things that will need attention. It will need a bottom job.The owner is telling me of all the care that she and her husband have given this boat.. I am inclined to believe she is being honest. I am willing to make the 4 hr drive to Florida to check out the boat. I'm researching like crazy anything and everything I can think of. The owner will meet us, and even take us out for a sail ( weather permitting) as a pre-survey. ( Yes, I will get a survey!!) I have so many questions-- I'm writing them all down. One big question I have is --- since I am so new to sailing, I might need to hire someone to sail my boat ( if I purchase it) from Niceville Florida to ultimately Lake Ponchartrain -- or Gulfport.. Any one know how much something like that would cost?


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## lovebluewater

Hunter sloop 1984. any thoughts on the vessel?


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## danvon

lovebluewater said:


> Hunter sloop 1984. any thoughts on the vessel?


If you could post a link to the ad for the boat (is it being publicly advetised yet?) it would help people to give advice.


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## lovebluewater

danvon said:


> If you could post a link to the ad for the boat (is it being publicly advetised yet?) it would help people to give advice.











31’ Hunter Sloop Sailboat


Great sailing vessel with many features! This 1984 Hunter is sleek in the water, bright and airy inside. 31’ 5’3” draft 9,700# displacement 16 HP inboard Yanmar diesel, serviced 2018 -oil change...




www.facebook.com





It's also listed on Yatchworld


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## lovebluewater

Any thoughts? I can take criticism if this is a bad idea? I'm trying to consider all costs-- including transporting/sailing it from Niceville Florida to Slidell La. --- My initial searches look pricey.


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## danvon

lovebluewater said:


> Any thoughts? I can take criticism if this is a bad idea? I'm trying to consider all costs-- including transporting/sailing it from Niceville Florida to Slidell La. --- My initial searches look pricey.


I think you'll find (or maybe have already found) road transport is prohibitive - you also need to factor hauling out and dropping the mast, then putting it back in the water and having the mast re-stepped. No idea what kind of a trip that would be by water.


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## capttb

Isn't that only a couple hundred miles ?


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## lovebluewater

capttb said:


> Isn't that only a couple hundred miles ?


Yes.. I'd have to hire someone..


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## Minnewaska

200 miles is a 2ish day trip straight through, or 3-4ish in daylight. I don't know prices in FL, but a good delivery skipper up here is running near $400 per day, plus provisions and transportation back. The good news is that 200 miles is easily driven, so you either personally drive them back, or rent a car one way for them. 

You should go with them, if you can find a skipper that's good with that. You'll learn your boat inside and out. If you're not experienced enough to be helpful, they'll want to bring a mate. The mate can sometimes be free (other than provisions and transport), but most often about half the cost of the skipper. 

Be sure your insurance covers the boat with someone else piloting it, if you're not aboard.


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## sailingfool

Minnewaska said:


> 200 miles is a 2ish day trip straight through, or 3-4ish in daylight. I don't know prices in FL, but a good delivery skipper up here is running near $400 per day, plus provisions and transportation back. The good news is that 200 miles is easily driven, so you either personally drive them back, or rent a car one way for them.
> 
> You should go with them, if you can find a skipper that's good with that. You'll learn your boat inside and out. If you're not experienced enough to be helpful, they'll want to bring a mate. The mate can sometimes be free (other than provisions and transport), but most often about half the cost of the skipper.
> 
> Be sure your insurance covers the boat with someone else piloting it, if you're not aboard.


As a delivery captain I require that the owner submit me to the insurance company as an authorized vessel operator and I believe this is a common solution to the vessel insurance issue.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## scratchee

Would the current owners consider sailing it back with/for you? You might even make that part of the negotiations for purchase. In addition to relocating the boat, that's a great way to get the "pass down" from the prior owner, on all the quirks and systems, etc.

I did the same with my boat, though it was only a 25 mile trip. But the seller appreciated the chance to take one last sail, and we had a nice trip.


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## contrarian

This is a 3 day trip. You can get it done for $250 a day from Niceville plus expenses plus return flight cost. You could also just motor it yourself through the ICW all the way to Slidell. The mast on a Hunter 31 is less than 50' so you would be able to clear the one 50' bridge along that route which is at Fort Walton at the western side of Choctahatchee bay. The only down side to taking the ditch would be that you would miss some very nice cruising grounds on the outside from Niceville to Pensacola although Santa Rosa Sound is one of the nicer sections of the ICW should you decide to take that route.


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## Minnewaska

sailingfool said:


> As a delivery captain I require that the owner submit me to the insurance company as an authorized vessel operator and I believe this is a common solution to the vessel insurance issue


That is how it's commonly done and there is occasionally a small added fee, for a defined trip, during a defined window. Understand, however, being added as an operator only means the owner's policy will pay the owner's covered losses, while you are operating the vessel. That does not mean it protects the non-owner operator.

For example, say the delivery skipper rams another boat. The owner gets their boat fixed on the insurance company's dime, along with coverage for any liability that is accrued to them, perhaps for damage to the other boat. However, the other damaged vessel can still sue the operator directly, who is not covered. Not to mention, the owner's insurance company has the legal right to pursue the party that caused their loss (ie subrogate the claim). In order for the new operator to have coverage under the policy, they must be added as an additional insured party, not just an authorized operator. Additional insureds are harder to do temporarily and cost more. As an owner, I typically have only added the skipper as an operator and doubt they've fully understood they're not the ones that are covered.


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## Layla

I wonder what you guys end up buying. I've been following your posts and very excited for you. good luck!


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## lovebluewater

Still hunting for a boat.. seen several...gor various reasons the right one hasn't happened yet. I am learning everytime i visit another one for sale... none will be perfect, so with each defect, I research how much will it take to bring up to ehat I want? 


Next question... to replace interior cushions ( latest one had only one owner, and a chain smoker! ) where and how much? And what is a good fabric choice? I know sunbrella is great, but maybe vinyl?


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## rbrasi

No need to use sunbrella on interior cushions. They won't be exposed to UV in there, so pick whatever you like! Make sure it's breathable, though!


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## skipmac

lovebluewater said:


> Still hunting for a boat.. seen several...gor various reasons the right one hasn't happened yet. I am learning everytime i visit another one for sale... none will be perfect, so with each defect, I research how much will it take to bring up to ehat I want?
> 
> Next question... to replace interior cushions ( latest one had only one owner, and a chain smoker! ) where and how much? And what is a good fabric choice? I know sunbrella is great, but maybe vinyl?


Assume the cushions are foam with some kind of fabric cover. Haven't priced it lately but when I purchased my boat new foam was expensive. Mine was in good condition but had a bad smell from PO neglect (long story). I removed the foam from the fabric covers, laid them on my back patio and soaked the with Lemon Joy and a hose. Then walked up and down on them until I felt they had been totally washed. Turned them on edge, rinsed drained, rinsed drain until all the soap was out. Then stood them on end to dry. It took days and days but the foam ended up clean and completely odor free.

Personally would not choose vinyl for new covers. Sweaty and uncomfortable to sit on in shorts. Lots of people like Ultrasuede. Claim it's very stain resistant and cleanable but have a generic version that hasn't done so well. Pick something a little darker like navy blue which won't show stains as much.


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## rbrasi

If you have the time and money, you may want to check out Sailrite. They have everything you need to make your own, including helpful tutorials. I use them for all my canvas needs. If you pay someone else to do it, you might spend twice as much (but get a nicer result!).


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## SchockT

When we bought our last boat the cushions were original from 1979...orange, brown and tan plaid! Cushions that age are a big contributer to the "old boat smell". We decided rather than recycle the old foam we would get all new cushions with modern foam. That also gave us the opportunity to customize the cushions and make them capable of converting into a queen sized bed. It was the single biggest improvement to the interior of the boat. At the time I believe it cost us about cdn$2000 but that was 18 years ago. If you speak to a local upholstery shop you can get a good idea how much to budget. If you have the skills you can also tackle the job yourself as suggested above.

Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk


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## OnABudget

contrarian said:


> If your husband isn't a sailor the answer to your question is simple. Get a new Husband


Lmao ... this is the funniest answer... i would suggest first to go out on a sailboat for the day with your husband so he can see how awesome watching paint dry could actually be.


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## lovebluewater

Update--- I found a boat. 30ft Catalina -- 1986. This is the boat I have been drawn to. It has the roomy cabin. It's big enough for this me, being a novice. The price point is low, and had a lot of quick interest. As fate would have it, I was able to put down a good faith deposit, with the plan of getting a survey, and if all goes well, then purchase. 

The boat needs work. At the low pricepoint, I expected it would. It needs a bottom job. The engine started right up, no smoke- - But the bilge was loaded with oily water and smelling of diesel. I have pulled in all my "experts" most are not overly concerned with the bilge water, but all basicly recommend to get a survey. 

The boat has been inactive for about 5 years-- that is concerning I'll admit. The cushions are toast.. about the only thing they'll be good for is to trace a pattern for making new cushions.

The lines/ sheets are expectedly covered in algae. 

There is leaky hatches, and a stanchion leak is likely responsible for some wood rot.

And, I hate to even say this-- but it looks like the boat could definitely benefit from an electrical overall wiring -- I don't think I should be looking a hanging wires and wirenuts. Again, All part of the survey to help me make decisions. 

I was still feeling pretty good about the deal-- excited actually. I was trying to get a date for the survey. The surveyor that was recommended for me is in high demand right now, and the seller's calendar is pretty full. So, it's been chalenging. 

But, today-- the seller is expressing that he is not pleased with waiting for a survey, and is pressuring me to not get a survey. He even went as far as to say he has had 4 phone calls in the last 2 days inquiring about the boat. It kinda felt like a threat. He even said " what will you learn from the survey that will keep you from buying the boat?" I thought that was a dumb question since I don't exactly know what the survey will reveal. I told him that all advice I've received is to always get a survey. 

Now I find myself with a bad taste about the boat, or at least unsure if I should proceed? 

This boat shopping and purchasing is so much worse than learning to sail. 

I'm not sure what is the best strategy. On one hand, "buy small, go now" is great advice. After all, how will I really learn to sail without a boat? ( And yes I'm going to the yacht club for racing nights and loving it and obtaining some experience.)

On the other hand, maybe wait, get a less troublesome boat that needs less work.? Nothing more expensive than a cheap boat.? 

Yikes! open to anyone's thoughts!


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## danvon

lovebluewater said:


> Update--- I found a boat. 30ft Catalina -- 1986. This is the boat I have been drawn to. It has the roomy cabin. It's big enough for this me, being a novice. The price point is low, and had a lot of quick interest. As fate would have it, I was able to put down a good faith deposit, with the plan of getting a survey, and if all goes well, then purchase.
> 
> The boat needs work. At the low pricepoint, I expected it would. It needs a bottom job. The engine started right up, no smoke- - But the bilge was loaded with oily water and smelling of diesel. I have pulled in all my "experts" most are not overly concerned with the bilge water, but all basicly recommend to get a survey.
> 
> The boat has been inactive for about 5 years-- that is concerning I'll admit. The cushions are toast.. about the only thing they'll be good for is to trace a pattern for making new cushions.
> 
> The lines/ sheets are expectedly covered in algae.
> 
> There is leaky hatches, and a stanchion leak is likely responsible for some wood rot.
> 
> And, I hate to even say this-- but it looks like the boat could definitely benefit from an electrical overall wiring -- I don't think I should be looking a hanging wires and wirenuts. Again, All part of the survey to help me make decisions.
> 
> I was still feeling pretty good about the deal-- excited actually. I was trying to get a date for the survey. The surveyor that was recommended for me is in high demand right now, and the seller's calendar is pretty full. So, it's been chalenging.
> 
> But, today-- the seller is expressing that he is not pleased with waiting for a survey, and is pressuring me to not get a survey. He even went as far as to say he has had 4 phone calls in the last 2 days inquiring about the boat. It kinda felt like a threat. He even said " what will you learn from the survey that will keep you from buying the boat?" I thought that was a dumb question since I don't exactly know what the survey will reveal. I told him that all advice I've received is to always get a survey.
> 
> Now I find myself with a bad taste about the boat, or at least unsure if I should proceed?
> 
> This boat shopping and purchasing is so much worse than learning to sail.
> 
> I'm not sure what is the best strategy. On one hand, "buy small, go now" is great advice. After all, how will I really learn to sail without a boat? ( And yes I'm going to the yacht club for racing nights and loving it and obtaining some experience.)
> 
> On the other hand, maybe wait, get a less troublesome boat that needs less work.? Nothing more expensive than a cheap boat.?
> 
> Yikes! open to anyone's thoughts!


You're right to want to get a survey on any boat, and especially with what you've described. The possibility of wood rot is a concern. Check the decks carefully as the plywood core may have rotted which can be $$ to replace. Also the diesel in the bilge should be investigated (might actually want to have a mechanic look at the motor - most surveyors will not). It might just be a leak in a filter or a previous spill, or ??? If there are wirenuts on board (they have no place whatsoever on a boat IMO), that suggests that a previous owner was willing to cut corners on maintenance. When you haul it to look at the bottom, look for any gap at the top of the keel ("Catalina smile").

Having said all that, if it checks out OK these are great boats. But the seller should not be pressuring you, especially if HIS full calendar is part of the holdup. The purpose of your deposit is to hold the boat long enough to get a survey. And even if you did not find anything to make you cancel the sale, it might help you to negotiate a price reduction to fix anything of real concern, although if he has other offers that is unlikely.

Good luck!


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## Minnewaska

First, congratulations on finding what you believe is the right boat for you. I'm not a fan of project boats, but if as they say, she has good bones and is in poor aesthetic condition, those are fine. Cleaning dock lines, bilges and making new cushions are not deal breakers. Understanding why they are a problem may be a different story, but maybe not. Boats that sit have issues and you want to know which ones.

There are two sides of the survey coin. You definitely want one, especially as a new buyer and especially given the condition of the boat. All sellers (and I've been there) get anxious about their boat being surveyed. You do have an obligation to get it done timely. Inside two weeks of an accepted offer would be customary, IME, and often a deal requires 9 or 10 days. 

In your case, the seller has good reason to worry about the survey spooking you off. There is also no doubt that a survey will pile on things that a new buyer may not best be able to sort out. When I bought my boat, she was 4 years old and had 36 findings in the survey. Some needed to be addressed, about 30 did not (scratches, unknown battery install dates, suggestions for lanacote on fittings, etc). At least not right away and had no impact on the deal.

Did you sign a written contract? No way I would spend money on a survey, unless the seller was contractually obligated to sell. That does not mean they are contractually obligated to repair your survey items, so you most likely will renegotiate the deal, unless you expected the finds. For example, you shouldn't ask for a discount later, because she needs new cushions. You already know that and should factor it into your price. The survey is to find things that were unknown and most certainly will.


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## lovebluewater

danvon said:


> You're right to want to get a survey on any boat, and especially with what you've described. The possibility of wood rot is a concern. Check the decks carefully as the plywood core may have rotted which can be $$ to replace. Also the diesel in the bilge should be investigated (might actually want to have a mechanic look at the motor - most surveyors will not). It might just be a leak in a filter or a previous spill, or ??? If there are wirenuts on board (they have no place whatsoever on a boat IMO), that suggests that a previous owner was willing to cut corners on maintenance. When you haul it to look at the bottom, look for any gap at the top of the keel ("Catalina smile").
> 
> Having said all that, if it checks out OK these are great boats. But the seller should not be pressuring you, especially if HIS full calendar is part of the holdup. The purpose of your deposit is to hold the boat long enough to get a survey. And even if you did not find anything to make you cancel the sale, it might help you to negotiate a price reduction to fix anything of real concern, although if he has other offers that is unlikely.
> 
> Good luck!


Thank you!

I'm just reconsidering the whole thing. I'm pretty down about this. Maybe I should take up pottery.? Yikes! It's stressful enough to take on a purchase that will definitely be a financial drain. But for the seller to put pressure on not getting a survey?, and also want a speedy act of sale date? This is not what I am comfortable with.

There has to be some kind of middle ground. Not a project boat, but not necessarily one that is turnkey-- I don't believe there is such a thing as a turnkey boat anyway.
I'm going to bring in a couple more "experts"-- sailing folks that I have gotten to know a little.


Minnewaska said:


> First, congratulations on finding what you believe is the right boat for you. I'm not a fan of project boats, but if as they say, she has good bones and is in poor aesthetic condition, those are fine. Cleaning dock lines, bilges and making new cushions are not deal breakers. Understanding why they are a problem may be a different story, but maybe not. Boats that sit have issues and you want to know which ones.
> 
> There are two sides of the survey coin. You definitely want one, especially as a new buyer and especially given the condition of the boat. All sellers (and I've been there) get anxious about their boat being surveyed. You do have an obligation to get it done timely. Inside two weeks of an accepted offer would be customary, IME, and often a deal requires 9 or 10 days.
> 
> In your case, the seller has good reason to worry about the survey spooking you off. There is also no doubt that a survey will pile on things that a new buyer may not best be able to sort out. When I bought my boat, she was 4 years old and had 36 findings in the survey. Some needed to be addressed, about 30 did not (scratches, unknown battery install dates, suggestions for lanacote on fittings, etc). At least not right away and had no impact on the deal.
> 
> Did you sign a written contract? No way I would spend money on a survey, unless the seller was contractually obligated to sell. That does not mean they are contractually obligated to repair your survey items, so you most likely will renegotiate the deal, unless you expected the finds. For example, you shouldn't ask for a discount later, because she needs new cushions. You already know that and should factor it into your price. The survey is to find things that were unknown and most certainly will.


Thank you. My hubby is the best, BTW. he is looking at these projects, and there are many.. and sees them as do-able. 
The way I see this boat, it is a barebones boat.. But for the asking price of $8k, I figured if it sails, & has a good engine, steering, and is safe, then everything else is improvements.

Having said that, it will need a lot of work. Essentially every system will need care.

The deck is solid.. according to me, the hubby and about 4 other guys so far. The wood rot actually has us least concerned. We feel pretty good about our ability to repair it.

-- we know the hatches, and portlights are leaky-- repair with new gaskets and butyl .. correct?

My husband was satisfied with the sound , and start up of the diesel engine. A Universal engine. No smoke , and started up on the 3rd crank. The owner replaced a sea cock while we were there. We would be more confident if the bilge weren't filled with oily/diesel water.

Cushion, and cosmetics don't scare me. I could Martha stewart the heck out that boat.

No AC, but there are ways to add a portable AC at some point fairly cheaply.

UGH! the electrical-- looks messy and unsafe. The boat is not in a Marina. It is on a bayou in a back yard. The owner doesn't have it connected to shorepower-- it's connected to some small portable solar panel. I have more questions than answers to the electrical.

Things I also don't know-- plumbing. Head working? The supposedly clear tubing that is connected to the fresh water tanks-- Not clear.. Yikes! I suppose there is a way to clean them? bleach? or replacement? This sounds like a multi-day job.

Oh and no PFD's-- just another expense. And probably not working fire-extinguishers. No smoke alarms, no CO2 detectors... Which this means that it isn't even ready for a sea trial by a surveyor due to coast guard requirements.

My original thinking was that it was a sailable boat. It would get me on the water sooner rather than later? But IDK. I have a house-- houses also always need work. We are really good at DIY on our home. And I guess I have to question the money and time of the boat. If this were a boat that was well maintained, then usual maintenance I'm all in! I would be proud to keep her healthy.

Thoughts?? Sorry for the ramble.


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## Minnewaska

lovebluewater said:


> I'm just reconsidering the whole thing. I'm pretty down about this. Maybe I should take up pottery.? Yikes! It's stressful enough to take on a purchase that will definitely be a financial drain. But for the seller to put pressure on not getting a survey?, and also want a speedy act of sale date? This is not what I am comfortable with.


This is my standard advice for just about anything at an impass. Never give up on a bad day. You're not thinking straight. If on a good day, you don't think you have the passion to make the boat the level of priority it needs, then it's not for you. Boats do not have to be money pits (there are entire threads here on inexpensive repairs/hacks), but they do require attention and you need to be realistic. Safety items like hull condition, standing and running rigging, engine, rudder, lifelines, etc, are not optional. Cushions are.



lovebluewater said:


> The supposedly clear tubing that is connected to the fresh water tanks-- Not clear.. Yikes! I suppose there is a way to clean them? bleach? or replacement?


The fresh water tank can usually be manually scrubbed and then bleached successfully. The tubing is best replaced, because you can't scrub the inside to remove the foreign matter. Bleach can eliminate odor, but the dead material will not go away and can serve as food for the next generation to grow. Don't get too grossed out, the inside of you copper piping at home probably doesn't look all that pristine either (although more likely scale than algae). A little algae is perfectly normal. Keep the water going in the tank clean and run it frequently. Letting water sit is the recipe for growth.



lovebluewater said:


> and no PFD's-- just another expense. And probably not working fire-extinguishers. No smoke alarms, no CO2 detectors.


These are the absolute most common survey findings.


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## SchockT

Don't be afraid to walk away from the deal. You have seen enough signs of neglect to ring alarm bells so follow your instinct. You are correct, most of the things you list are fixable. It is the things you don't know about that are the problem.

Catalina 30s are one of the most common 30 footers out there. There will always be another one if this one falls through.

Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk


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## Minnewaska

SchockT said:


> Don't be afraid to walk away from the deal. You have seen enough signs of neglect to ring alarm bells so follow your instinct. You are correct, most of the things you list are fixable. It is the things you don't know about that are the problem.


I wouldn't argue with that logic. All boats tell a story and that's what a buyer should really want to know. My add is that a complete newbie doesn't have instinct. Perhaps the bones are good and all the visuals are bad. That can be a very good deal. Of course, sitting on the hard for years is likely to have more wrong.

One thing for this new buyer. You have to be willing to write off the cost of the survey as an education. I've done it. I think anyone at this for a while will do it. Too many buyers feel invested in the cost of the survey and then bend to the seller, lest lose that cost. Brokers rely on that pressure, actually.

Walking on this boat doesn't mean walking on the entire sport. It takes effort to find the right boat.


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## JimInPB

lovebluewater said:


> ...But, today-- the seller is expressing that he is not pleased with waiting for a survey, and is pressuring me to not get a survey. He even went as far as to say he has had 4 phone calls in the last 2 days inquiring about the boat. It kinda felt like a threat. He even said " what will you learn from the survey that will keep you from buying the boat?" ...


The short answer to that question is - you may learn that the hull itself is not worth saving, due to de-lamination or other serious structural issues.

A longer answer may include references to standing rigging, chain plates, rudder post, keel attachment, crevice corrosion and other silly little details like that. (those are not really silly little details)

I would offer to let him take the other 4 phone calls, unless you are totally in love with the layout of this particular boat. If you do totally love this boat, then you may wish to offer him a small non-refundable deposit to hold the boat for a specified period of time, to show that you are serious & not just a tire kicker.


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## JimInPB

lovebluewater said:


> anyone have opinions about hunter? I see a lot of them posted for sale also. And i do like the roomy cockpits and interior for the size boat. I don't know how to feel for the hunter with no backstay? But i am also not seeing it listed as a problem either?


I've owned 3 Hunters. They have all served me well. They were all good values for the money when I bought them. I didn't have a hard time selling the two that I sold. The third will be up for sale soon, since I now have a larger boat.

The B&R rig is nice because it lets you have that open transom access to the water behind the boat without wire ropes in inconvenient places. The big downside is that the swept back side stays do not let you ease the main as far as some other rigs do, so your downwind performance without a spinnaker is not as good as it could be. If you want to fly a spinnaker in heavy weather, then adding running back-stays is a good idea. All of my Hunters had the B&R rig. None had issues. I've had the spreaders on my current Hunter in the water during a squall. The boat turned out to be tougher than I expected.

Different Hunters are different, but as a general rule, features are very good, layout is very good, finishes are so-so & build quality is OK. The interior woodwork is usually not cabinet maker grade. Again, different ones are different, so you need to ask about a specific boat to get valid information.


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## JimInPB

lovebluewater said:


> ...Next question... to replace interior cushions ( latest one had only one owner, and a chain smoker! ) where and how much? And what is a good fabric choice? I know sunbrella is great, but maybe vinyl?


Call a local canvass shop. Get a quote. Expect sticker shock.


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## BarryL

Hey,

IMHO, This is the problem:

_The way I see this boat, it is a barebones boat.. But for the asking price of $8k, I figured if it sails, & has a good engine, steering, and is safe, then everything else is improvements. _

You can't expect to buy a decent, 'sail away' 30' boat for $8K. You can probably find a good 25' boat, but the price of boats grows exponentially as the length increases. You can buy a barebones 30' boat for $8K, then put another $8K and hundreds of hours of work into it and have a nice, sail away boat. That's not necessarily a bad thing. You can learn as you go, you'll know everything about the boat. You'll end up with a boat set up the way you want, etc.

Regarding the owner and his pressure, I would just ignore him. I assume / hope that you have a signed contract. The contract should have dates for when the survey must be held, when the owner must accept or reject the boat, and when the closing must be done by. If you (or the seller) miss the dates, then the contract can be cancelled. If you don't have a contract, or it doesn't have those dates, then, again IMHO, you are going about the boat purchase process in the wrong way.

Good luck,
Barry


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## emcentar

Personally, I would walk away. Mostly because I think even if the survey doesn't uncover a deal-breaker detail, I'm nervous about an owner who has had a boat on the hard for five years, hasn't maintained it, and wants an 'as-is' sale at a fire sale price ($8 for an eighties-era Catalina 30 is a pretty low price, and likely reflects he knows it's a project boat). I'm not a fan of project boats anyway - every day you are working on the boat is a day you aren't sailing it, and even well-maintained boats cost us working-stiffs too many sailing days, IMHO.


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## JimInPB

BarryL said:


> Hey,
> 
> IMHO, This is the problem:
> 
> _The way I see this boat, it is a barebones boat.. But for the asking price of $8k, I figured if it sails, & has a good engine, steering, and is safe, then everything else is improvements. _
> 
> You can't expect to buy a decent, 'sail away' 30' boat for $8K. You can probably find a good 25' boat, but the price of boats grows exponentially as the length increases. You can buy a barebones 30' boat for $8K, then put another $8K and hundreds of hours of work into it and have a nice, sail away boat. That's not necessarily a bad thing....


This is consistent with my opinion. My Hunter 26.5 is going up for sale for $8k in sail away condition & I think that is a reasonable firm selling price. A Cat 30 is a lot more boat. If I found one in sail away condition for $8k, I would buy it just to flip it. To me, sail away condition means that if 2-4 friends wanted to join me for a 30 mile trip in an hour from now, I'd say - no problem, please pick up some ice on your way down to the dock.


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## Keyframe42

Your story is similar to mine, with the exception that I have no friends who are sailors, I took about 6 months to buy a boat, looked at a bunch, asked advice here,, tried to use common sense. My boat is a 25fter, but with a roomy well laid out cabin, and very stable, I chose cost, easy maintaince, and value for learning as my focus. I am planning on gunk holing and overnighting this year, but I kept my cost and size of the boat down to learn first for a year, my budget was in the 5k range, so if I sell it at a loss, it is not a huge loss. Plus, I assume starting out I will run it ashore I can't speak about the quality of Catalina 30's but I will say I have seen more than a few 27s many in seemingly good shape, priced very inexpensively. Plus Marina cost in the area go up quick from 27 to 30ft.


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## Keyframe42

midwesterner said:


> The people who are advising you against a Catalina 30, are only doing that because you're a woman. They are implying that it's too big for a woman.The Catalina 30 is a wonderful boat for family cruising, in lake water or the Gulf.
> 
> It is true, that everything having to do with a boat is charged based on its size. A 27-foot Catalina will be a little cheaper to operate and maintain than a 30. But the Catalina 30 is an excellent size and a little more comfortable. The big difference would be between a 30 foot and 40 foot boat.
> 
> I chartered a Catalina 30 in the Florida Keys once, for a week. It is a nice Sailing Boat, and very comfortable to stay in for a weekend, or a week. There are plenty available for sale. A good survey will prevent you from getting a lemon.
> 
> You can get an idea of the costs by calling several marinas in areas where you would keep a boat. Ask them what they charge for hauling out and launching a boat, power washing the hull, repainting the hull, storage in a slip, and storage on the hard (land). They will quote you prices by the foot. Work out some calculations for different sizes of boats and see what would seem reasonable, without causing you too much price shock.


They said the same to me and I am scratching something in my pants more than my wife likes


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## lovebluewater

emcentar said:


> Personally, I would walk away. Mostly because I think even if the survey doesn't uncover a deal-breaker detail, I'm nervous about an owner who has had a boat on the hard for five years, hasn't maintained it, and wants an 'as-is' sale at a fire sale price ($8 for an eighties-era Catalina 30 is a pretty low price, and likely reflects he knows it's a project boat). I'm not a fan of project boats anyway - every day you are working on the boat is a day you aren't sailing it, and even well-maintained boats cost us working-stiffs too many sailing days, IMHO.


I like the advice on stepping back for a second to re-evaluate. Today, I brought out 2 other experts-- One is a sailor who works on boats for a living, lives on boats, and is regarded as knowing as much as a surveyor( Martin) . The other fella, works in the boat yard as a yacht painter, and would be doing the bottom job for me (Carlos). Both of these guys have been a sounding board for all my searches over the last 6 months or so. They are quite busy, and I believe I have good reason to respect their opinions. They both viewed my potential boat. Martin looked pretty closely at all the issues, and even pointed out a couple more . But overall they both agreed it was a good purchase. It will need work-- quite a lot of it is cosmetic, but something like the rotten wood-- caused by leaks that need to be fixed first will reside higher on the priority list.

I hear what you all are saying about " More work, less play".. but what I like about this boat is that it will sail right now-- I'm not going far-- just into our Lake Pontchartrain. I'm still learning.. So, perhaps I'll work a little, play a little.?

And a breakthrough.. the surveyor is able to see the boat on a day that magically aligns up with the seller. So, I think we all get what we want so far-- I get my survey, and the seller gets his earlier date that he wanted. That's a good sign, right?


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## emcentar

I will say a lot of stuff you mention doesn't sound that dire. But as a former first-time boat buyer, I'm so glad I saved an extra year and bought a well-maintained boat, I had a couple of low-maintenance years while I was still learning the systems and figuring out how to do basic maintenance. Personally, I think if I had bought a project boat I probably would have sold it a few years later because it was too much work. But some people love it. I probably would love it if I were retired and had more time to do the work. But with a full-time job, I want to spend my weekends on the water, not in the yard.


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## Minnewaska

JimInPB said:


> Call a local canvass shop. Get a quote. Expect sticker shock.


Call an inland furniture or auto upholstery shop instead.

They don't even need to know they go on a boat.

If one doesn't simply say, please replicate these, then expect more edging, piping, interior foam, fabric, knee rise, etc, decisions than one ever considered possible.


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## Minnewaska

Keyframe42 said:


> Plus, I assume starting out I will run it ashore


Huh? That's not a thing to expect.


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## Minnewaska

BarryL said:


> I assume / hope that you have a signed contract. The contract should have dates for when the survey must be held, when the owner must accept or reject the boat, and when the closing must be done by.


I think I mentioned the same above, but quote this for emphasis. I'm not sure if we've heard whether there is a written contract with survey, acceptance and closing dates, along with requisite seller title warranties, etc.

If I did not have a written contract, I would never spend money on a full survey. I may make an exception for a one hour look over to ask the surveyor if she's worth pursuing. In this high demand time, I'm not sure many surveyors have that kind of time and are more likely to prioritize full inspections.


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## PhilCarlson

It sounds like the boat has great potential: Good pedigree, you're doing your due diligence with knowledgeable professionals... It sounds like you have a reasonable expectation of what you are considering. A quick search will show that model at that price point in from "rough to tired" condition.

Some thoughts and observations:
-Rotted wood: if the rot is on a load bearing structures that will be a big project to replace.
-Will you need a survey to insure the boat?
-Inactive for 5 years... yes, that is bad. Not necessarily a deal breaker, but the worst way to treat a boat.
-Engine-Good sign about the engine starting right up. oily bilge water might not be a problem, it's been sitting for 5 years and who knows. Worst case; you end up rebuilding an engine that is well worth rebuilding, you should at least replace all of the periodic service wigits and doodads (impeller, sensors, thermostat, etc...) 
-Electrical: you will likely be better off replacing vs patching a rats nest, especially if there is previous owner DIY work. The margin between Perfect and Good Enough is much narrower where electrical is concerned. 
--Electrical refit: I mentioned earlier that I recently did a complete electrical refit on my 26'; all DC wiring, new panels, lights, fans, etc... No Shore power (yet). I estimate that I spent ~$1,500 in parts, materials, and tools. The project easily exceeded 150 hours of research and labor. I also had an unfamiliar experience; I reached a point one day where I realized that ALL of my 'big projects' (that overwhelming list) were done. Everything left were small things that didn't interfere with sailing. It was strange, and very nice. 
-However you approach the work that needs done on this boat, you will find things that need to be fixed before you complete your intended project. Boat projects are almost always bigger than they look.
-The running rigging will probably clean up well enough to use. Might be ugly though. 
-What condition are the sails in?

-Bottom job (~$3,000) unless there are blisters or other damage, then a lot more. 
-Cushions (~$1,000 DIY)
-Engine service (~$500)
-Electrical (~$1000)
-Hatch and portlight seals, cosmetics (~$500) 
-Wood rot repair ($??)
-Sail repair/replacement ($??)

There are some reasons to walk away from this boat. There are also some reasons to go with this boat. Some of those reasons are the same, the question is your perspective. On the one hand, you will learn a ton, know the boat intimately, and eventually spend many enjoyable days sailing a very nice boat that you can be proud of. On the other hand, you are going to spend a lot of time and money doing dirty, difficult and expensive jobs instead of sailing. When it's all said and done, you won't have saved any money.


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## lovebluewater

Great wisdom in this blog. Thank you all so much. 

This was a craigslist listing. I believe the seller-- there was a lot of interest in the boat. I think it is fairly priced given the amount of work it will need to make it great, and something I'll be so proud of. What I like about it is that it is sailable now. I'm hoping for work a little, play a little. If money were no object, boom! the boat I would purchase would be turnkey-- if there is such a thing? I will admit that the other way to go would be to wait, save, have a bigger budget.-- but on the other hand, "go small , go now" has its advantages -- life is short, I'm afraid if I wait life will happen, and I'll still be waiting. 

The condition of the sails is decent.(?) The seller said they were taken off due to squirrels had chewed 2 holes in the main, and had been repaired by a sailmaker. When I saw them stored in his garage, the main had a patch sewed in about 4 inch square. Otherwise to my inexperienced eyes they looked fine. Not new, but fine. Any thoughts on this anybody?

I hear what you're saying about the bulkhead--rotten wood being a serious project. But, I'm youtubing the heck out of it, and it doesn't scare me and the hubby( Btw-- hubby is the best! He is interested in all the repairs!) It looks like, first thing is first, repair the leaks that caused the rot. Next, support the above shroud attatchment--I've seen it tied off to keep tension while starting the repairs down below. I figure, just like sewing, I can take a Piece of clear plastic, tape it to the bulkhead straightly, and trace the outline of this shape to provide a pattern. We will try to remove the wood in one piece, and that might work-- the rot isn't that severe(?) and also use this as a template. I am being told that using a product like coosa board is a good idea-- composite, and cuts like wood with a skill saw/jigsaw, but never rots. I can paint it . How am I doing so far?


This rotten wood area is the most ominous project.. And I'm still figuring it out. 

I


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## lovebluewater

As for the cushions, yes I can sew. It would take a month of Sundays to complete, and a heavy duty sewing machine. But, I have another way I was considering doing this.

What if I took some plywood ( Marine grade, or decently painted for water protection?) then cut the shapes , applied the dense foam, and applied the fabric over it, then secured it with a power stapler to the wood? , like you would upholstered chair seat? I've seen some videos on this with power boats. I need to decide on the fabric choices. The durability in me wants a vinyl, where the homie in me wants a more fabric type. I still have to feel this one out. 

Am I barking up the wrong tree? It won't be foldable, but it will be stackable and moveable when needed.


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## lovebluewater

As for the electrical, I know nothing about electrical. But that's what hubby and friends are for right.? One guy made me feel less anxious about this aspect.. he asked-- what electrical do you have/need on the boat? Well, since it is a fairly simple boat, not a lot. No AC, no generator. It's pretty basic. No bells and whistles

Am I being too optimistic? I know everything will take twice as long and cost twice as much, if I'm lucky?


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## lovebluewater

PhilCarlson said:


> It sounds like the boat has great potential: Good pedigree, you're doing your due diligence with knowledgeable professionals... It sounds like you have a reasonable expectation of what you are considering. A quick search will show that model at that price point in from "rough to tired" condition.
> 
> Some thoughts and observations:
> -Rotted wood: if the rot is on a load bearing structures that will be a big project to replace.
> -Will you need a survey to insure the boat?
> -Inactive for 5 years... yes, that is bad. Not necessarily a deal breaker, but the worst way to treat a boat.
> -Engine-Good sign about the engine starting right up. oily bilge water might not be a problem, it's been sitting for 5 years and who knows. Worst case; you end up rebuilding an engine that is well worth rebuilding, you should at least replace all of the periodic service wigits and doodads (impeller, sensors, thermostat, etc...)
> -Electrical: you will likely be better off replacing vs patching a rats nest, especially if there is previous owner DIY work. The margin between Perfect and Good Enough is much narrower where electrical is concerned.
> --Electrical refit: I mentioned earlier that I recently did a complete electrical refit on my 26'; all DC wiring, new panels, lights, fans, etc... No Shore power (yet). I estimate that I spent ~$1,500 in parts, materials, and tools. The project easily exceeded 150 hours of research and labor. I also had an unfamiliar experience; I reached a point one day where I realized that ALL of my 'big projects' (that overwhelming list) were done. Everything left were small things that didn't interfere with sailing. It was strange, and very nice.
> -However you approach the work that needs done on this boat, you will find things that need to be fixed before you complete your intended project. Boat projects are almost always bigger than they look.
> -The running rigging will probably clean up well enough to use. Might be ugly though.
> -What condition are the sails in?
> 
> -Bottom job (~$3,000) unless there are blisters or other damage, then a lot more.
> -Cushions (~$1,000 DIY)
> -Engine service (~$500)
> -Electrical (~$1000)
> -Hatch and portlight seals, cosmetics (~$500)
> -Wood rot repair ($??)
> -Sail repair/replacement ($??)
> 
> There are some reasons to walk away from this boat. There are also some reasons to go with this boat. Some of those reasons are the same, the question is your perspective. On the one hand, you will learn a ton, know the boat intimately, and eventually spend many enjoyable days sailing a very nice boat that you can be proud of. On the other hand, you are going to spend a lot of time and money doing dirty, difficult and expensive jobs instead of sailing. When it's all said and done, you won't have saved any money.


I like your estimates-- They are in line with what I was thinking it would cost too.


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## lovebluewater




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## lovebluewater




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## lovebluewater

This photo will be my favorite before pi


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## lovebluewater

lovebluewater said:


> View attachment 139202
> 
> 
> This photo will be my favorite before pi
> View attachment 139202


This will be my favorite photo as a before pic if/when I purchase this boat. Notice the mushroom growing out of the wood, and just above it, the spot where I poked it a little and went through it. I said " Dude!! I broke your boat!" 😂


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## Minnewaska

lovebluewater said:


> The condition of the sails is decent.(?) The seller said they were taken off due to squirrels had chewed 2 holes in the main, and had been repaired by a sailmaker. When I saw them stored in his garage, the main had a patch sewed in about 4 inch square. Otherwise to my inexperienced eyes they looked fine. Not new, but fine. Any thoughts on this anybody?


Dacron polyester sails don't just age by tearing or staining, they stretch. If properly repaired, by a loft, they may be serviceable. It's not a bad idea for a newbie to have used sails, because you'll likely abuse them a bit, getting used to sailing the boat. Still, I'm going to bet they are a bit more worn than you think. The question is how long were they used. This owner doesn't sound like they would have sprung for new sails anytime in the recent past.



lovebluewater said:


> What if I took some plywood ( Marine grade, or decently painted for water protection?) then cut the shapes , applied the dense foam, and applied the fabric over it, then secured it with a power stapler to the wood?


I had a center console dinghy seat that was made this way. Even stainless steel staples corroded and water got to the wood, through the stitch holes and it rotted. If you were referring to cushions down below, you could likely keep them dry and this would be a more common approach.

By the way, the bulkhead is most likely structural, suggesting she isn't really ready to sail. Sounds like replacing it is within yours and your husband's skill set, but I'd have at it right away. I expect your survey will identify a few other safety issues that you'll need to address before implementing your play a little, work a little approach. Might still be the right deal, if you know what you're getting into. Just be realistic about addressing critical items. If you plan to insure the boat, the insurance company always requires critical items be addressed (sometimes with proof sent to them), before the insurance is actually in affect.


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## PhilCarlson

Bulkhead: if that is under the mast, or under a shroud, it's structural. If it's the bulkhead between the chain locker and V- Berth it likely isn't. If it is where I think it is based on the pic, then it is under the portside forward lower should chainplate, which is likely the leak. If the rot is not extensive, you could use something like Git Rot to repair it, replacing the bulkhead will be a major task. That horizontal light line looks like maybe it sat against a wet cushion for a while and maybe it's just the veneer that's rotted. I don't see the vertical streaks I would expect from a chainplate leak.

Cushions: You could try that plywood and staples thing, but then "Do it right, do it once." Since you posses the dark and mystical powers of sewing, I'd say invest in a Sailrite sewing machine and have at it. Added bonus; you can also learn sail repair, and your boat neighbors will find things to pay you for. Sunbrella topside, and something comfortable (and easy to clean) down below.

Sails: Like Minne said sails stretch with age. UV will kill the stitching though. My main sail was original kit on an 1976 boat. I put over 400 days on it myself. It's baggy at the bottom, it's been patched by the sailmaker six times, lots of little bits of sail tape on it, too. I replaced it this winter and it is now in reserve, tired but serviceable. Don't be afraid of old sails, just learn how to care for them.

Electrical: You NEED five circuits:
-Running Lights
-Cabin Lights and fans
-Radio and instruments
-Masthead
-Steaming light
You probably want:
-Spreader/deck light
-USB charger
-Cockpit lights
-More than one circuit for your Radio, GPS, and instruments.
-Separate circuit for fans and cabin lights
Check out Pacific Yacht Systems on Youtube: 



Your engine may need a wiring upgrade. Check out this thread: Universal Engines Wiring Harness Upgrade


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## SteveKras

On the topic of cheap cushions...I had a friend cut a piece of fabric that was big enough to stretch 6" or so on the bottom side of the foam. He put grommets in the fabric on the underside and weaved bungie cord between the grommets to stretch and hold the fabric. So far he is on 3 seasons with the main settee cushions like this. They still look fine. Not as good as a proper sown cover, but it was cheaper and within his skill set.


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## TakeFive

I don't have time for a long reply, but FWIW my original factory Catalina dinette cushions are plywood bottoms with fabric stapled over the foam. Still good after 20 years. Backrests need to conform to the curvature of the hull, so they need to be upholstered on front and back.

Catalina can make new cushions for all their legacy boats, but it will run you $5000 or more.

Vinyl is fine on the back side, but the front side would be slippery, sweaty (in heat) or cold (in shoulder season). Vinyl also needs very precise sewing to work well. Best to go with high quality upholstery fabric. Get UV resistant material, since boat interiors get a lot of sun.


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## TakeFive

Duplicate deleted


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## lovebluewater

Minnewaska said:


> Dacron polyester sails don't just age by tearing or staining, they stretch. If properly repaired, by a loft, they may be serviceable. It's not a bad idea for a newbie to have used sails, because you'll likely abuse them a bit, getting used to sailing the boat. Still, I'm going to bet they are a bit more worn than you think. The question is how long were they used. This owner doesn't sound like they would have sprung for new sails anytime in the recent past.
> 
> I had a center console dinghy seat that was made this way. Even stainless steel staples corroded and water got to the wood, through the stitch holes and it rotted. If you were referring to cushions down below, you could likely keep them dry and this would be a more common approach.
> 
> By the way, the bulkhead is most likely structural, suggesting she isn't really ready to sail. Sounds like replacing it is within yours and your husband's skill set, but I'd have at it right away. I expect your survey will identify a few other safety issues that you'll need to address before implementing your play a little, work a little approach. Might still be the right deal, if you know what you're getting into. Just be realistic about addressing critical items. If you plan to insure the boat, the insurance company always requires critical items be addressed (sometimes with proof sent to them), before the insurance is actually in affect.


100% agree. The rotten wood is the priority. Fixining the leaks, and replacing the bulkhead(s) . Do you know anything about the composite material I am talking about? Coosa Board? The guys at the boat yard said this is the only product they use when replacing rotten wood. It makes since to me, I would expect it is strong. It is even sold on boatoutfitters.com for transoms . As with most things, it is not a cheap product, but sounds like an upgrade. As for esthetics, I can make that work. I'm resourcing Pinterest with some pretty good ideas.

Here is a short story that kinda sums up our skill sets. We flooded with Hurricane Katrina. After crying about the devistation and feeling totally overwhelmed, me and the hubby just got to work. My neighbors were pulling out the walls of their house-- we asked, " Hey How do you pull them out?" and they showed us, So we did it. Later, we said " Hey, how do you put them back?" They showed us, and we did it.

The parts I'm leaving out, is the electrical, flooring, lighting, designing, shopping and all the trim work-- took about 6-9 months. We were the first in our area to have a celebration party at our house.

Our last name is of French decent-- and it was at that time I realized it must be french for " we wouldn't dream of hiring anyone to do anything. " Gosh we were tired! We worked full time, and had 2 school aged young children. As you can tell, I am still so proud of our hard work, team work, and knowledge we gained during that process. And the house looks great.

As you can see, I have humbled confidence ( Oxymoron , I know!) to take on this boat. But, I have a good attitude-- how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time!


----------



## lovebluewater

TakeFive said:


> I don't have time for a long reply, but FWIW my original factory Catalina dinette cushions are plywood bottoms with fabric stapled over the foam. Still good after 20 years. Backrests need to conform to the curvature of the hull, so they need to be upholstered on front and back.
> 
> Catalina can make new cushions for all their legacy boats, but it will run you $5000 or more.
> 
> Vinyl is fine on the back side, but the front side would be slippery, sweaty (in heat) or cold (in shoulder season). Vinyl also needs very precise sewing to work well. Best to go with high quality upholstery fabric. Get UV resistant material, since boat interiors get a lot of sun.


Thank you!! That is great advice regarding the backside.. I would have figured that out, I'm hoping-- but you have helped me avoid a potential mistake.

And yes, I did call a canvas shop-- to replace the interior cushions here locally, the estimate was $4500-- I'm sure with tax and any add-ons it would be $5k. I haven't measured for a DIY instead, but I think an estimate of $1k would be reasonable? What do you think? ( Catalina 30ft) . Any suggestions as to good fabric types? and maybe good on line shopping? And I like coupons- I'll visit our local fabric stores too, Joann's etc. I'm a quality bargain shopper for sure!


----------



## lovebluewater

Minnewaska said:


> Dacron polyester sails don't just age by tearing or staining, they stretch. If properly repaired, by a loft, they may be serviceable. It's not a bad idea for a newbie to have used sails, because you'll likely abuse them a bit, getting used to sailing the boat. Still, I'm going to bet they are a bit more worn than you think. The question is how long were they used. This owner doesn't sound like they would have sprung for new sails anytime in the recent past.
> 
> I had a center console dinghy seat that was made this way. Even stainless steel staples corroded and water got to the wood, through the stitch holes and it rotted. If you were referring to cushions down below, you could likely keep them dry and this would be a more common approach.
> 
> By the way, the bulkhead is most likely structural, suggesting she isn't really ready to sail. Sounds like replacing it is within yours and your husband's skill set, but I'd have at it right away. I expect your survey will identify a few other safety issues that you'll need to address before implementing your play a little, work a little approach. Might still be the right deal, if you know what you're getting into. Just be realistic about addressing critical items. If you plan to insure the boat, the insurance company always requires critical items be addressed (sometimes with proof sent to them), before the insurance is actually in affect.


Yes, I'm reffering to the interior cushions.

And definitely the bulkhead is the priority!! Thank you!


----------



## lovebluewater

lovebluewater said:


> Yes, I'm reffering to the interior cushions.
> 
> And definitely the bulkhead is the priority!! Thank you!


As for the sails, We will learn plenty about all of this on our survey.. and my sailing mentor will be on that survey too. I don't expect much, just decent sailable sails that can carry me a few years as I learn. I figure that we MUST take care of the critical issues, and then as time goes on, improve the boat year by year -- as with getting new sails later down the road. I got a few on line quotes, just incase it has to be done sooner than later. I'm not sure who to order from? I like quality, but I'm also not needing or wanting top of the line sails. And the truth is I will need plenty of advice when I get to this point. It looks like I can count on this communitiy for great tips! Thank your all!


----------



## danvon

You might want to look for a Catalina 30 owners' forum. People there would know about your specific questions. I can't imagine there is not one (or more) with a good number of members. They could address questions like "is this bulkhead structural?"


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## Dreadpiratkevin

danvon said:


> You might want to look for a Catalina 30 owners' forum. People there would know about your specific questions. I can't imagine there is not one (or more) with a good number of members. They could address questions like "is this bulkhead structural?"


Definitely check this out. One of the advantages of owning a Catalina is no question is ever more than a quick forum search away from an answer.





__





Catalina Owner Forums






forums.sailboatowners.com





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lovebluewater

danvon said:


> You might want to look for a Catalina 30 owners' forum. People there would know about your specific questions. I can't imagine there is not one (or more) with a good number of members. They could address questions like "is this bulkhead structural?"


Excellent idea!


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## capttb

Does it matter what the survey says now that you are shopping for cushions and minimizing the difficulties and time involved in extensive repairs ? Never seen a "sailaway" boat with mushrooms before.


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## mstern

that picture of your bulkhead looked exactly like the bulkhead in my old boat. In my boat, the rot came not from water coursing down the bulkhead itself from a leaking chain plate (and thereby rotting the wood, top to bottom and creating an unsafe anchor for the rigging), but from water pooling on the fiberglass floor of the boat against the bottom of the bulkhead. Due to the fact that the toilet was blocking the view of the pooled water, I didn't even see the nasty stuff until it was way too late. By then, the bottom half inch of the bulkhead was all spongy. Fortunately for me, although structural (it anchored the chainplates), the bulkhead was tabbed only to the side of the hull, not the bottom. That meant the entire bottom of the bulkhead was really cosmetic. My fix was to cut off the rotten bottom edge, and make a big, fat fillet with thickened epoxy. And despite some big efforts, I was never able to fully shut off the mystery source of that leak. It made little difference in the end; my fix waterproofed any place vulnerable to rot, and like you, I didn't pay much for the boat in the first place. 

I will say this about the price of your potential boat: Like yours, my first boat too was in "sailaway" condition. Serviceable engine and sails, no leaks in the hull. But over the course of the first few years of ownership, I spent more than the purchase price just replacing things that had already reached the end of their useful lives. That does not include things that needed fixing. I'm very glad that you seem to have a good handle on the finances here; there ain't no such thing as a cheap boat. But as you seem to have already figured out, it's way worth it.


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## lovebluewater

capttb said:


> Does it matter what the survey says now that you are shopping for cushions and minimizing the difficulties and time involved in extensive repairs ? Never seen a "sailaway" boat with mushrooms before.


The survey definitely matters. Even if this is not meant to be, look at all I've learned from this. The researching alone for these kinds of repairs and all the considerations for price vs time.

As for the mushroom.. i figured that piece of wood which is at the companion way being rotten was the least of my concerns. Given the age of the boat, it isn't structural, it should be easy to remove and replace. It might be the first mushroom growing boat to ever sail.. but I doubt it ?


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## lovebluewater

mstern said:


> that picture of your bulkhead looked exactly like the bulkhead in my old boat. In my boat, the rot came not from water coursing down the bulkhead itself from a leaking chain plate (and thereby rotting the wood, top to bottom and creating an unsafe anchor for the rigging), but from water pooling on the fiberglass floor of the boat against the bottom of the bulkhead. Due to the fact that the toilet was blocking the view of the pooled water, I didn't even see the nasty stuff until it was way too late. By then, the bottom half inch of the bulkhead was all spongy. Fortunately for me, although structural (it anchored the chainplates), the bulkhead was tabbed only to the side of the hull, not the bottom. That meant the entire bottom of the bulkhead was really cosmetic. My fix was to cut off the rotten bottom edge, and make a big, fat fillet with thickened epoxy. And despite some big efforts, I was never able to fully shut off the mystery source of that leak. It made little difference in the end; my fix waterproofed any place vulnerable to rot, and like you, I didn't pay much for the boat in the first place.
> 
> I will say this about the price of your potential boat: Like yours, my first boat too was in "sailaway" condition. Serviceable engine and sails, no leaks in the hull. But over the course of the first few years of ownership, I spent more than the purchase price just replacing things that had already reached the end of their useful lives. That does not include things that needed fixing. I'm very glad that you seem to have a good handle on the finances here; there ain't no such thing as a cheap boat. But as you seem to have already figured out, it's way worth it.


Thanks! I definitely like this post. It is encouraging. I figure it will likely cost another $8k ultimately to get it really great.. and it will take some time to get there. but hey, $16k for a boat that I will know inside and out is still a great deal to me.


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## Minnewaska

lovebluewater said:


> Even if this is not meant to be, look at all I've learned from this.


With that attitude, you will find the right boat. Good luck.


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## lovebluewater

lovebluewater said:


> Thanks! I definitely like this post. It is encouraging. I figure it will likely cost another $8k ultimately to get it really great.. and it will take some time to get there. but hey, $16k for a boat that I will know inside and out is still a great deal to me.





PhilCarlson said:


> Bulkhead: if that is under the mast, or under a shroud, it's structural. If it's the bulkhead between the chain locker and V- Berth it likely isn't. If it is where I think it is based on the pic, then it is under the portside forward lower should chainplate, which is likely the leak. If the rot is not extensive, you could use something like Git Rot to repair it, replacing the bulkhead will be a major task. That horizontal light line looks like maybe it sat against a wet cushion for a while and maybe it's just the veneer that's rotted. I don't see the vertical streaks I would expect from a chainplate leak.
> 
> Cushions: You could try that plywood and staples thing, but then "Do it right, do it once." Since you posses the dark and mystical powers of sewing, I'd say invest in a Sailrite sewing machine and have at it. Added bonus; you can also learn sail repair, and your boat neighbors will find things to pay you for. Sunbrella topside, and something comfortable (and easy to clean) down below.
> 
> Sails: Like Minne said sails stretch with age. UV will kill the stitching though. My main sail was original kit on an 1976 boat. I put over 400 days on it myself. It's baggy at the bottom, it's been patched by the sailmaker six times, lots of little bits of sail tape on it, too. I replaced it this winter and it is now in reserve, tired but serviceable. Don't be afraid of old sails, just learn how to care for them.
> 
> Electrical: You NEED five circuits:
> -Running Lights
> -Cabin Lights and fans
> -Radio and instruments
> -Masthead
> -Steaming light
> You probably want:
> -Spreader/deck light
> -USB charger
> -Cockpit lights
> -More than one circuit for your Radio, GPS, and instruments.
> -Separate circuit for fans and cabin lights
> Check out Pacific Yacht Systems on Youtube:
> 
> 
> 
> Your engine may need a wiring upgrade. Check out this thread: Universal Engines Wiring Harness Upgrade


The location of that ominous rot is a wall that sits on the v-berth port site- It doesn't go down to the floor. The wall sits on the fiberglass v-berth. I would love it to not be structural.

What do you think?


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## PhilCarlson

More pics would help. If there is a chainplate at the top then that bulkhead transfers load from the shroud to the hull. Someone earlier noted a similar problem on the same boat that did not require full replacement.


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## TakeFive

The rot that you saw is a common location for rainwater to pool in boats that are hauled out and stored with bow elevated (which is mostly a powerboat thing, but boatyards often do it for all boats). From your pic, it seems that the boat had a leak somewhere other than the chainplates, which isn't as bad as leaky chainplates.

I am not an expert, but my basic engineering knowledge says that the shrouds pull up on the bulkhead, which spreads this upward force across the cabintop. So it's critical that the upper portion of the bulkhead be fully intact, as well as where the bulkhead is tabbed to the hull. Some isolated rot at the very bottom should not be a structural problem. However, both of my Catalinas have had more modern tie rods for the chainplates instead of structural bulkheads, so I have no direct experience with them.

From what I can tell, $8k seems like a fair price, especially with a working inboard diesel (though be sure to run it long enough to check that it holds operating temperature). Some of the older C30s had less desirable Atomic gas engines. Get a surveyor to validate or refute my comments, and if it passes survey a without major issues take it. Be sure surveyor checks the keel for Catalina smile. You should also require a sea trial as condition of purchase, for which you would cover cost of launch and, if needed, professional captain.


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## lovebluewater

TakeFive said:


> The rot that you saw is a common location for rainwater to pool in boats that are hauled out and stored with bow elevated (which is mostly a powerboat thing, but boatyards often do it for all boats). From your pic, it seems that the boat had a leak somewhere other than the chainplates, which isn't as bad as leaky chainplates.
> 
> I am not an expert, but my basic engineering knowledge says that the shrouds pull up on the bulkhead, which spreads this upward force across the cabintop. So it's critical that the upper portion of the bulkhead be fully intact, as well as where the bulkhead is tabbed to the hull. Some isolated rot at the very bottom should not be a structural problem. However, both of my Catalinas have had more modern tie rods for the chainplates instead of structural bulkheads, so I have no direct experience with them.
> 
> From what I can tell, $8k seems like a fair price, especially with a working inboard diesel (though be sure to run it long enough to check that it holds operating temperature). Some of the older C30s had less desirable Atomic gas engines. Get a surveyor to validate or refute my comments, and if it passes survey a without major issues take it. Be sure surveyor checks the keel for Catalina smile. You should also require a sea trial as condition of purchase, for which you would cover cost of launch and, if needed, professional captain.


If weather cooperates, Tuesday is pre -puchase Survey.. the seller will captain it, and it will be hauled out. If nothing else big found , it's mine. They'll start on the bottom job.

Definitely going to look for the Catalina smile. But I am told that even that is fixable with epoxy?

The prop should be examined, stuffing box?, and shaft? Thru-hulls? Anything else while it's out of the water?


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## PhilCarlson

You should check EVERYTHING while it’s out. And take tons of pictures. You can’t take too many. Close ups and perspective. They will be an invaluable resource later to answer questions you haven’t thought of yet. Same goes for the masthead if the surveyor goes up there.


.


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## TakeFive

A good surveyor knows what to look for. Catalina smile is unique to early Catalinas (when they embedded wood into the keel stub, which would rot over time), so remind him just in case he doesn't know Catalina well.

Has this boat been in the water unused for 5 years? I thought it was on the hard. If it's sat unused in the water for 5 years, prepare for some surprises.

The surveyor will undoubtedly check the shaft anode. You might pick up a zinc anode from a local store, since it will almost certainly need a new one and you'll want to replace it while hauled out. I think the boat probably has a 1" shaft:









Streamlined Collar Zinc Anodes with Hex Head Screws | West Marine


Check out our Streamlined Collar Zinc Anodes with Hex Head Screws and more from West Marine!




www.westmarine.com





Someone else suggested you go to an owners website, but the one he suggested (sailboatowners.com) is a commercial site that may not have as good a reach as the true Catalina Owners International Association. You should go to the true owners website, and also join (i.e., pay your dues) since it's your single best source of owners information: International Catalina 30 Association

It looks like they run a mailserv for Q&A at [email protected] . It's not as good as a message board, but since the boats have been around since before the Internet, they probably organized it around older technology. You should search the website's documents and maybe post a question to verify the shaft diameter for your anode.


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## SanderO

lovebluewater said:


> If weather cooperates, Tuesday is pre -puchase Survey.. the seller will captain it, and it will be hauled out. If nothing else big found , it's mine. They'll start on the bottom job.
> 
> Definitely going to look for the Catalina smile. But I am told that even that is fixable with epoxy?
> 
> The prop should be examined, stuffing box?, and shaft? Thru-hulls? Anything else while it's out of the water?


Surveyor should know... sound the hull and rudder with a nylon mallet for evidence of rotten core.
Make sure the cutlass bearing is OK - no shaft wiggle
Replace the zinc


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## TakeFive

lovebluewater said:


> Definitely going to look for the Catalina smile. But I am told that even that is fixable with epoxy?


Do some research. While epoxy is likely to be one component of the repair, you can't just fair the crack with epoxy or anything else. I recall reading about having to grind the rotten wood out of the keel stub and replace it with something that doesn't decay. It may require dropping the keel off the boat. I haven't studied it, I've just read a few things in user groups over the years. My boat was made after Catalina fixed the "design defect", so I have no reason to research it and never paid full attention to the articles I saw on it. But you do have reason, and you should research it, since if you find a Catalina smile you will need to make a split-second decision whether it's a deal-killer or something that you can take on.

IIRC, Frank Butler or Gerry Douglas said in an interview somewhere that they used wood to build up the keel stub because they didn't expect the boats to last as long as they have. Now that people are trying keep the boats going for 30+ years, this design deficiency is becoming an issue. At some point they stopped putting wood in the keel stub and used something that can't rot. Do some Google research - it's out there, and highly relevant to your purchase.


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## TakeFive

You'll also need to learn how to use epoxy. If you mix up a big pot of the stuff and try to fill a large void, it will overheat and make a toxic mess. You need to do small layers at one time, but then amine blush can prevent adhesion between the layers. There's a lot of learning needed to take on a big project like a Catalina smile. Hopefully one of the previous owners has fixed it already.


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## TakeFive

I had a few minutes to Google fixes for Catalina smile. Some do just deal with it cosmetically and re-fair with various compounds every 1-4 years, depending on how severe. Tightening the keel nuts annually, and to the design specification, is important. In cases where the bilge floor starts to compress under the nuts, you have rotting of the underlying wood and need to dig out the wood and replace with non-rotting material (probably accompanied by removal of the keel). So the answer is "it depends" on how severe the issue is, how frequently it re-appears, and how severe the underlining root cause is.


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## boatpoker

lovebluewater said:


> If weather cooperates, Tuesday is pre -puchase Survey.. the seller will captain it, and it will be hauled out. If nothing else big found , it's mine. They'll start on the bottom job.
> 
> Definitely going to look for the Catalina smile. But I am told that even that is fixable with epoxy?
> 
> The prop should be examined, stuffing box?, and shaft? Thru-hulls? Anything else while it's out of the water?


Arm yourself ...


Marine Survey 101, pre-survey inspection


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## lovebluewater

Well, the survey revealed additional problems. -- Which I expected it would.

There were about 20 large blisters that were apparently repaired, and those repairs were failing.

The rudder had some of it knocked off.

The propeller was toast.

So-- after hauling it out ( $300 for the short haul)

Here was the cost list so far of above...

Labor for bottom job.. $1050
Paint 400
Blister repair 1000
New Catalina Rudder 2500
Rudder install 500
New prop 622
------------
$6072.


Now, I feel these prices are on the high side of what it could cost-- But this is What the surveyor pushed me to believe... this is what it would/or could cost to get back in the water from the boat yard.


The boat yard we used was really a DIY kinda place. So, any work that needed to be done that we weren't planning on taking on was done privately through contractors. And trying to pin down a cost estimate was tough. Therefore, I let the surveyor guide me on costs. The surveyor was not keen on this boat yard . And a sailing buddy also used the boat yard, and the yacht painter; he also warned me to be Careful of the yacht painter I was planning on using. I'm told that the final price tag will be much higher than told because they always "find things" that cost more. 

We didn't raise the sails because the shrouds were loose, and the surveyor said it's not a simple matter of tightening things up. This was something I hadn't considered.

There was a motormount screw loose-- sounded simple to me, and perhaps it was, but it could also be not simple(?) -- something about being loose in the stringer ( Ribs of the boat?) I didn't quite follow that. 

All of this in addition to the other issues ( rotten interior wood - bulkhead, leaky hatches, Cushion replacements Etc) I could see with my own eyes made the purchase seem foolish (?) -- sort of...

We put the boat back in the water, and told the seller never mind... which was an unpleasant experience to say the least. The surveyor explained that this is where dealing with a broker comes in handy. Any one have thoughts on this? This was a craigslist ad.


I am disappointed and discouraged .

As the survey went on I could see the look of stress on my hubby's face. Again, he was being supportive, and wanting this to work for me, but we are a team, and I don't want to put that on him or us.


I'm not sure what the answer is. I really want to do this. But I am so discouraged. 

Should I wait a couple of years? Have a bigger budget? I was thinking this would work out because of the price tag of $8k, and a budget of $20k I could make it work (?) and not inconvenience anyone too much. 

Or do I hold out for something so called "turnkey" ? Or go small , go now? I really wanted a Catalina 30ft . It has the helm I want ( No tiller) , inboard engine, and roomy cabin and cockpit.

It seems like the sweet spot is so elusive . 

I am having my doubts about the decision to bail on buying. But, everyone around me was pretty confident I should pass on this one. The surveyor even used the words " this should be a donation boat." That was hard to hear.


Thoughts anyone?


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## PhilCarlson

Sounds like you could spend $6k repairing an $8k boat and still be stuck with problems. Walking away was the right thing to do. Screw how the seller feels about it, he has multiple offers sight unseen, right? He's just mad because he's stuck with a junk boat and you figured it out before it was too late.

It sounds like you received an invaluable education.This is exactly how it's supposed to work. Now you know stuff you didn't know before and will be better prepared the next time around. Don't be discouraged. Keep looking. You'll find your boat eventually.

Also, I share your disappointment. I was hoping this one worked out for you.


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## Minnewaska

That's why you do a survey. Chalk it up as a good education. 

If it was truly aesthetic stuff you thought you could update yourselves, it may have been a find. Attending the survey is very smart, but they are also focused on finding what's wrong and all boats have something wrong, so you must be emotionally prepared. 

Needing a new rudder and perhaps standing rigging are getting into far more than aesthetic. This boat was not properly maintained. 

If you have a $20k budget, finding something that costs more but is in better shape would make sense.


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## TakeFive

You did the right thing by walking. This guy will have to give away this boat, and he may even have no takers at a $0 price. Now you know why he was trying to bully you into taking the boat without survey.

A couple of comments about survey deductions for your next boat:

Bottom paint is normal maintenance. You really shouldn't deduct from purchase price for that. Also, on boats in this size range, bottom paint should be a DIY item if the yard will allow you to do it. You need to learn to do things like this or you'll be in for huge costs.

Blister repair is not normal maintenance, so you could negotiate a deduction. But this, too, is something that you should learn to do yourself for boats of this size. You might hire out some soda/nutshell blasting to remove old paint, but the repair and painting should be DIY. (If no blisters, you can do light sanding of the old paint.)

5 years neglected in the water is a VERY BAD THING. The anode probably disappeared and the prop corroded to nothing. The shaft may have been in similarly bad shape, especially if it was bronze (as is common on older Catalinas).

I bought (and sold) my prior turnkey boat on Craigslist. There can be some good ones there, but also a lot of junk.

You will not find an $8k boat through a broker. Brokers typically have about a $3000 minimum commission, and they typically charge 10% of selling price. So the bottom end for most brokers is around $30,000 (unless they're selling a trade-in or other special circumstances). Below that, you'll pretty much have to stick with Craigslist and other DIY listing services.

If you're shopping in the off-season, it's best to look at boats that are hauled out for the winter. You'll waste less time because there's nothing hidden underwater.

The fact that he had you put the boat back into the water (instead of storing it on land) may tell you a lot about this guy. He's looking to hide something from the next sucker buyer. I wonder how many others there were before you who pulled out of the deal after wasting money on a surveyor.


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## lovebluewater

TakeFive said:


> You did the right thing by walking. This guy will have to give away this boat, and he may even have no takers at a $0 price. Now you know why he was trying to bully you into taking the boat without survey.
> 
> A couple of comments about survey deductions for your next boat:
> 
> Bottom paint is normal maintenance. You really shouldn't deduct from purchase price for that. Also, on boats in this size range, bottom paint should be a DIY item if the yard will allow you to do it. You need to learn to do things like this or you'll be in for huge costs.
> 
> Blister repair is not normal maintenance, so you could negotiate a deduction. But this, too, is something that you should learn to do yourself for boats of this size. You might hire out some soda/nutshell blasting to remove old paint, but the repair and painting should be DIY. (If no blisters, you can do light sanding of the old paint.)
> 
> 5 years neglected in the water is a VERY BAD THING. The anode probably disappeared and the prop corroded to nothing. The shaft may have been in similarly bad shape, especially if it was bronze (as is common on older Catalinas).
> 
> I bought (and sold) my prior turnkey boat on Craigslist. There can be some good ones there, but also a lot of junk.
> 
> You will not find an $8k boat through a broker. Brokers typically have about a $3000 minimum commission, and they typically charge 10% of selling price. So the bottom end for most brokers is around $30,000 (unless they're selling a trade-in or other special circumstances). Below that, you'll pretty much have to stick with Craigslist and other DIY listing services.
> 
> If you're shopping in the off-season, it's best to look at boats that are hauled out for the winter. You'll waste less time because there's nothing hidden underwater.


Thanks! I can see where going to see a boat out of the water would be great. But here in south Louisiana, it's not likely.

I guess I feel more educated. What stinks is this was a bit of a unique situation. I visited this boat probably 25 times in the last 3 weeks the house had a dock in the backyard and the house was vacant. The boat was unlocked, and the seller said i could see it as much as much as I wanted to.

That was nice ...since I would look at it, then go home and look up things I had questions or concerns about. I'd also hit up friends, acquaintances, you nice bloggers, youtube, Catalina direct, west marine... etc for info and insight.

The surveyor seemed confident that for my budget, i should be able to find a better maintained boat. I'd love to find a boat that was well/decently maintained. But, the surveyor also said inventory is low. The low inventory is likely due to the pandemic. He also believes that this will lead to high volume of inventory in about 2 years.

What do you all think?

Btw, i didn't really want to wait 2 years. But if I do, I still have the yacht club....Wednesday night racing. And this Sunday I leave for my 5 day live aboard ASA 103/104 classes. Which i need to shake this off and get to studying some more.


----------



## lovebluewater

TakeFive said:


> You did the right thing by walking. This guy will have to give away this boat, and he may even have no takers at a $0 price. Now you know why he was trying to bully you into taking the boat without survey.
> 
> A couple of comments about survey deductions for your next boat:
> 
> Bottom paint is normal maintenance. You really shouldn't deduct from purchase price for that. Also, on boats in this size range, bottom paint should be a DIY item if the yard will allow you to do it. You need to learn to do things like this or you'll be in for huge costs.
> 
> Blister repair is not normal maintenance, so you could negotiate a deduction. But this, too, is something that you should learn to do yourself for boats of this size. You might hire out some soda/nutshell blasting to remove old paint, but the repair and painting should be DIY. (If no blisters, you can do light sanding of the old paint.)
> 
> 5 years neglected in the water is a VERY BAD THING. The anode probably disappeared and the prop corroded to nothing. The shaft may have been in similarly bad shape, especially if it was bronze (as is common on older Catalinas).
> 
> I bought (and sold) my prior turnkey boat on Craigslist. There can be some good ones there, but also a lot of junk.
> 
> You will not find an $8k boat through a broker. Brokers typically have about a $3000 minimum commission, and they typically charge 10% of selling price. So the bottom end for most brokers is around $30,000 (unless they're selling a trade-in or other special circumstances). Below that, you'll pretty much have to stick with Craigslist and other DIY listing services.
> 
> If you're shopping in the off-season, it's best to look at boats that are hauled out for the winter. You'll waste less time because there's nothing hidden underwater.


Thanks! I can see where going to see a boat out of the water would be great. But here in south Louisiana, it's not likely.

I guess I feel more educated. What stinks is this was a bit of a unique situation. I visited this boat probably 25 times in the last 3 weeks the house had a dock in the backyard and the house was vacant. The boat was unlocked, and the seller said i could see it as much asmuch


TakeFive said:


> I had a few minutes to Google fixes for Catalina smile. Some do just deal with it cosmetically and re-fair with various compounds every 1-4 years, depending on how severe. Tightening the keel nuts annually, and to the design specification, is important. In cases where the bilge floor starts to compress under the nuts, you have rotting of the underlying wood and need to dig out the wood and replace with non-rotting material (probably accompanied by removal of the keel). So the answer is "it depends" on how severe the issue is, how frequently it re-appears, and how severe the underlining root cause is.


Well.. the short version...the boat failed the survey, and we walked away. But, the catalina smile wasn't present.


----------



## mstern

Well done you. That boat would have been a horror show.


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## emcentar

You were right to hold out for the survey, and you were right to walk away when the surveyor told you what they found. When a surveyor tells you this is a 'donation boat' that means you walk away unless you have a boat yard worth of skills, a lot of time, and the boat is free. I had a bad feeling about this seller, between the five years neglect and trying to get you to buy without a survey, if he's lucky he'll find some unlucky fool who doesn't understand how much it can cost to bring back a poorly maintained boat. Fortunately that won't be you. 

I bought my boat turnkey with the same budget you have now. The key: broaden your list of boats and find a better PO (previous owner), someone who has been maintaining his boat and is moving up. With boats this age, maintenance is everything. While you search and wait, join a sailing club, take a sailing class, anything to get yourself on the water.


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## SchockT

Walking away was definitely the right thing to do. Don't worry about what the seller thinks. This particular guy did not disclose a serious issue with the rudder and tried to pressure you into buying the boat without hauling so you wouldn't discover it until it was too late. He is the worst kind of unethical seller! If it was me I would post an ad on Craigslist exposing his deception!

You definitely have to be careful not to get too attached to a boat before you own it. Going down to look at it 25 times is dangerous because you can start making emotional decisions rather than logical ones. Good for you for resisting that tendency!

I honestly think you should push your budget a bit higher. You don't get much of a 30 footer for 8k in this sellers market. You will need to be patient.

Get out sailing on other people's boats and put the word out in the yacht club that you are in the market. You never know what you will find through word of mouth. If you do buy from a yacht club member they are less likely to try to rip you off because they will have to see you and your friends afterwards.

I sold my last boat to another club member. I was completely up front about deficiencies and issues on the boat, although there weren't many...I maintain my boats! I gave him a fair price, and every time I see him he has a big smile on his face! 

Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk


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## MarkofSeaLife

lovebluewater said:


> There were about 20 large blisters that were apparently repaired, and those repairs were failing.
> 
> So-- after hauling it out ( $300 for the short haul)
> 
> Blister repair 1000
> 
> I am disappointed and discouraged .


Do not be disappointed or discouraged!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is exactly the decision you should congratulate yourself for!
Doing 'due diligence' by paying good money for the survey and the haul out has helped you make the only reasonable decision: to walk away.

20 large blisters costs _FAR_ more than $1000 to repair. I'm no yard person nor surveyor, but, I can assure you that 20 blisters properly repaired will cost a lot more... and whilst the boat is in the yard drying out, as it must do before the repairs, you will definitely find more blisters.

So, congratulate yourself. You've done a good job and make the correct analysis and the correct decision.

Buying a boat (or a house) you need to be happy and accepting... but when inspecting and surveying you must become a rabid werewolf on a full moon.

Mark


----------



## SteveKras

Good luck with your continued boat search. A few years ago a friend of mine sold a pair of Catalina 30s for under 10k each. They were in fair condition. Meaning they were structurally sound, had running engines, workable sails, but needed plumbing and instruments help. That was in a buyers market, but even such, you'll eventually find your boat if you are patient.


----------



## SchockT

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Do not be disappointed or discouraged!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> This is exactly the decision you should congratulate yourself for!
> Doing 'due diligence' by paying good money for the survey and the haul out has helped you make the only reasonable decision: to walk away.
> 
> 20 large blisters costs _FAR_ more than $1000 to repair. I'm no yard person nor surveyor, but, I can assure you that 20 blisters properly repaired will cost a lot more... and whilst the boat is in the yard drying out, as it must do before the repairs, you will definitely find more blisters.
> 
> So, congratulate yourself. You've done a good job and make the correct analysis and the correct decision.
> 
> Buying a boat (or a house) you need to be happy and accepting... but when inspecting and surveying you must become a rabid werewolf on a full moon.
> 
> Mark


The large blisters are an easy diy fix, and if you do it properly they will never come back. It is the hundreds of little blisters that I would be wary of!

I can't imagine paying thousands of dollars to a yard to do repairs and painting on an old boat. At the price range the OP is looking at DIY projects are going to be plentiful, and it just wouldn't be economically viable to pay a yard to do them.

Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk


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## Minnewaska

lovebluewater said:


> The low inventory is likely due to the pandemic. He also believes that this will lead to high volume of inventory in about 2 years.
> 
> What do you all think?


I think that is no different than day trading. It's just a gamble on what one "thinks" might happen. Last March, I "thought" real estate prices would crumble, given the inevitable recession. They soared.

If you want in on the lifestyle, you pay the vig at the door and get in. The water feels great. Don't wait for time, wait for a better boat.


----------



## boatpoker

As a surveyor disgusted by most surveyors it sounds to me like you have found a good one.
Listen to him.


----------



## lovebluewater

emcentar said:


> You were right to hold out for the survey, and you were right to walk away when the surveyor told you what they found. When a surveyor tells you this is a 'donation boat' that means you walk away unless you have a boat yard worth of skills, a lot of time, and the boat is free. I had a bad feeling about this seller, between the five years neglect and trying to get you to buy without a survey, if he's lucky he'll find some unlucky fool who doesn't understand how much it can cost to bring back a poorly maintained boat. Fortunately that won't be you.
> 
> I bought my boat turnkey with the same budget you have now. The key: broaden your list of boats and find a better PO (previous owner), someone who has been maintaining his boat and is moving up. With boats this age, maintenance is everything. While you search and wait, join a sailing club, take a sailing class, anything to get yourself on the water.


Thanks! Doing that now. Wednesday night racing. Making sailing buddies. I would love to find a boat that was loved by her owner . I would carry on with the same care.


----------



## TakeFive

lovebluewater said:


> The surveyor seemed confident that for my budget, i should be able to find a better maintained boat. I'd love to find a boat that was well/decently maintained. But, the surveyor also said inventory is low. The low inventory is likely due to the pandemic. He also believes that this will lead to high volume of inventory in about 2 years.
> 
> What do you all think?
> 
> Btw, i didn't really want to wait 2 years.


Then don't wait. You can't time the market. No matter what the market, the good boats always sell fast if they are priced fairly. Only the dogs (or nice boats that are grossly overpriced) become "inventory". The fact that inventories are low means that people are lowering their standards to take whatever they can. You don't want to be that person. You want to get a boat that never makes it into "inventory".

However, you should keep looking at the current "inventory" to get familiar with the kinds of problems that you want to avoid. Only by seeing the dogs will you know when you've found a good one. This education is critical, because when the right boat comes on the market, you will need to make a quick decision and make what you truly believe to be a fair offer. You will probably lose a few good boats while you calibrate yourself to a fair price. I'd strongly recommend that you either raise your budget or reduce your size to get a boat that's good enough for you to enjoy right away. Don't forget that you'll have to pay storage costs for any boat, even a dog, and paying storage costs for a whole year while you fix up a project boat will get old real fast.

Doing some club sailing and racing will help, not just to hone your skills, but to network into people who can tip you off when a good boat is coming on the market. Good luck!


----------



## lovebluewater

which engines do you all feel is a good engine? I keep getting a positive reaction when I mention Yanmar? But are some of the other ones good too? Or bad? I think what I'm reading is that people tend to favor Yanmar because of its longevity, and parts availability? I'm reading that volvo has the most expensive parts? I haven't done much detailed research on this .


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## PhilCarlson

The best engine is the one that has been run and maintained. The worst engine is the one that has been sitting but "ran great when we parked it."

I like Yanmar because I have one and it behaves well, it's easy to work on. It seems more so than my friend's Universal. I wouldn't shy away from Universal, Westerbeke, or Perkins... I'm sure others will add to the list. Volvo is a solid engine, but parts are expensive. I've read that some Perkins and Volvo engines are the same engines although I'm not up to speed on that relationship.


----------



## emcentar

PhilCarlson said:


> The best engine is the one that has been run and maintained. The worst engine is the one that has been sitting but "ran great when we parked it."


This is not only true of engines, but of everything about a boat in the price range you are in. So don't focus on builder name or engine type because that's just your brain trying to use brands to signal for quality in a very used boat market where the real quality signals require a lot of boat knowledge to distinguish. Instead, keep a list of 'must haves' (e.g. shoal draft, inboard engine, standing height in cabin) and look closely at any well-maintained boat that meets those criteria.

Better yet, tell your sailing buddies and classmates to look out for such a boat for you.


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## lovebluewater

So.... i saw another boat listed on craigslist.. smaller , as advised.. 27 foot catalina. 1983. I responded by asking a LOT of questions. Feel free to critic or just LOL if it's too much. 

Here it is.


Is your boat still available? 

If yes, tell me about your boat. I don't expect a perfect boat for the asking price, and not a perfect boat for its age. I just need to see what else needs to be done to make it better. Why are you selling it? How long have you owned it?

Tell me what is good and bad about your boat.

Deck- soft spots? 

Condition of rigging? Blocks/ tackle/ lines/ sheets/ shrouds

Condition of sails?

Last time it was sailed?

Was is sailed regularly?

I see the Bimini is torn, but is the frame solid?

How is the steering? does it have an emergency tiller?

How is the rudder?

How is the prop?

When was the last bottom job done?

How are the lifelines, and stanchions? deck hardware? leaks?

Do the hatches leak? Portlights leak?

I see you have a chartpoltter, does it work?

Do you have a depth finder? Wind finder? Windex?

Cockpit cushions?

Does the manual bilge pump in the cockpit work? Does the auto bilge pump work?

Do the lines need changing? or just cleaned?

Do the nav lights work?

Does it have a VHF radio? does it work?

How are the batteries? 

How is the electrical inside the boat?

How is the head? does it work?

How are the watertanks? Foot pump?

What type of engine? hours? Does it need work? Is the motor mount solid? ( Don't ask me why I ask!)

How is the galley? Tell me about the Galley please

What is the condition of the interior cushions.?

Is there wood rot in the boat?

How are the bulkheads? How are the chainplates? 

How is the fuel tank? 

How is the holding tank?

Does it have an anchor and rode? if yes, tell me about it please. 

Anything else you know about the boat? Could you send additional photos? 


Thank you

Christine


----------



## TakeFive

lovebluewater said:


> So.... i saw another boat listed on craigslist.. smaller , as advised.. 27 foot catalina. 1983. I responded by asking a LOT of questions. Feel free to critic or just LOL if it's too much.
> 
> Here it is.
> 
> Is your boat still available?
> 
> If yes, tell me about your boat. I don't expect a perfect boat for the asking price, and not a perfect boat for its age. I just need to see what else needs to be done to make it better. Why are you selling it? How long have you owned it?
> 
> Tell me what is good and bad about your boat.
> 
> Deck- soft spots?
> 
> Condition of rigging? Blocks/ tackle/ lines/ sheets/ shrouds
> 
> Condition of sails?
> 
> Last time it was sailed?
> 
> Was is sailed regularly?
> 
> I see the Bimini is torn, but is the frame solid?
> 
> How is the steering? does it have an emergency tiller?
> 
> How is the rudder?
> 
> How is the prop?
> 
> When was the last bottom job done?
> 
> How are the lifelines, and stanchions? deck hardware? leaks?
> 
> Do the hatches leak? Portlights leak?
> 
> I see you have a chartpoltter, does it work?
> 
> Do you have a depth finder? Wind finder? Windex?
> 
> Cockpit cushions?
> 
> Does the manual bilge pump in the cockpit work? Does the auto bilge pump work?
> 
> Do the lines need changing? or just cleaned?
> 
> Do the nav lights work?
> 
> Does it have a VHF radio? does it work?
> 
> How are the batteries?
> 
> How is the electrical inside the boat?
> 
> How is the head? does it work?
> 
> How are the watertanks? Foot pump?
> 
> What type of engine? hours? Does it need work? Is the motor mount solid? ( Don't ask me why I ask!)
> 
> How is the galley? Tell me about the Galley please
> 
> What is the condition of the interior cushions.?
> 
> Is there wood rot in the boat?
> 
> How are the bulkheads? How are the chainplates?
> 
> How is the fuel tank?
> 
> How is the holding tank?
> 
> Does it have an anchor and rode? if yes, tell me about it please.
> 
> Anything else you know about the boat? Could you send additional photos?
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Christine


The answer that you're most likely to get is, "Come see the boat." The second most likely answer that you'll get is, "Grandpa has Alzheimers (or passed away) and we don't know anything about this boat." Bottom line, the person you're asking either doesn't know or will feign ignorance. You're very unlikely to get someone to spend an hour or more writing detailed answers to these questions. I could be wrong, and I hope I am. Remember, most sellers are not nearly as excited about selling their boat as you are about buying it. There are many legitimate reasons why: Sadness over being too old to sail anymore, spouse is making him do it (and the person is listing it hoping it won't actually sell), etc.

It's definitely good to have these questions, but you may need to save it for when you actually see the boat.


----------



## SchockT

lovebluewater said:


> So.... i saw another boat listed on craigslist.. smaller , as advised.. 27 foot catalina. 1983. I responded by asking a LOT of questions. Feel free to critic or just LOL if it's too much.
> 
> Here it is.
> 
> Is your boat still available?
> 
> If yes, tell me about your boat. I don't expect a perfect boat for the asking price, and not a perfect boat for its age. I just need to see what else needs to be done to make it better. Why are you selling it? How long have you owned it?
> 
> Tell me what is good and bad about your boat.
> 
> Deck- soft spots?
> 
> Condition of rigging? Blocks/ tackle/ lines/ sheets/ shrouds
> 
> Condition of sails?
> 
> Last time it was sailed?
> 
> Was is sailed regularly?
> 
> I see the Bimini is torn, but is the frame solid?
> 
> How is the steering? does it have an emergency tiller?
> 
> How is the rudder?
> 
> How is the prop?
> 
> When was the last bottom job done?
> 
> How are the lifelines, and stanchions? deck hardware? leaks?
> 
> Do the hatches leak? Portlights leak?
> 
> I see you have a chartpoltter, does it work?
> 
> Do you have a depth finder? Wind finder? Windex?
> 
> Cockpit cushions?
> 
> Does the manual bilge pump in the cockpit work? Does the auto bilge pump work?
> 
> Do the lines need changing? or just cleaned?
> 
> Do the nav lights work?
> 
> Does it have a VHF radio? does it work?
> 
> How are the batteries?
> 
> How is the electrical inside the boat?
> 
> How is the head? does it work?
> 
> How are the watertanks? Foot pump?
> 
> What type of engine? hours? Does it need work? Is the motor mount solid? ( Don't ask me why I ask!)
> 
> How is the galley? Tell me about the Galley please
> 
> What is the condition of the interior cushions.?
> 
> Is there wood rot in the boat?
> 
> How are the bulkheads? How are the chainplates?
> 
> How is the fuel tank?
> 
> How is the holding tank?
> 
> Does it have an anchor and rode? if yes, tell me about it please.
> 
> Anything else you know about the boat? Could you send additional photos?
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Christine


LOL!

That is pretty intense for an initial enquiry! They are all good questions, but many of them are best left until you actually go see the boat.

It is hard to say how the seller will react to being grilled like that right off the bat. I guess it depends how many other potential buyers are showing interest.

Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk


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## JimsCAL

I agree. Too much for an initial inquiry. I'll be interested to hear how the owner responds.


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## lovebluewater

The seller... was a broker.. he answered about 2/3rd's.. yes, i should do this in person. This will be the things I'll be looking to have answered. Even I have to laugh at the list when in print.


----------



## JimInPB

lovebluewater said:


> which engines do you all feel is a good engine? ...


As for brands - Yanmar, Westerbeke, Beta, Perkins (if you want one that changes it's own oil), Universal. BUT condition means a lot here. It can mean more than the brand name.

Marine Engine brands are a funny thing though. Many marine engine brands (like Westerbeke) are really a company that takes an engine from another manufacturer & "marinizes" it by adding things like a heat exchanger & other little bit's & pieces.

The base motor means a lot. Again using Westerbeke as an example, the block may be a Mitsubishi (like the 21A) it may be a Perkins 4107 (40) or it may be something else. A lot of people look for motors that have a Kubota base block because spare parts from a Kubota tractor dealer tend to be a lot less expensive compared to marina pricing. Unfortunately, the same is not true of the Mitsubishi parts. The 21A I spoke of, shares a base motor with some Toro brand lawn equipment. The parts prices I have gotten from Toro are no better than marina pricing. For anything more specific than a belt or filter, I am usually going back to Westerbeke for parts on that one.

The comment about the Perkins changing it's own oil is a joke. Some Perkins motors (like the 4108) have an older design of rear main seal that almost always leaks after a few hundred hours of running, unless you had a genuine rock star of a mechanic install the best possible seal kit available. The timing cover tends to leak too, if a motor mount is attached to that area. As time goes by, the leaks tend to get worse. Eventually, it gets to the point where you just keep adding oil & you never need to drain it. You just keep changing the diapers under the motor as they get soaked.

Engine leaks are a bigger problem on a boat compared to a car because if the USCG catches you pumping oil overboard with your bilge water, the fines can be huge.


----------



## midwesterner

lovebluewater said:


> I am disappointed and discouraged .
> 
> As the survey went on I could see the look of stress on my hubby's face. Again, he was being supportive, and wanting this to work for me, but we are a team, and I don't want to put that on him or us.
> 
> I'm not sure what the answer is. I really want to do this. But I am so discouraged.


Don't get discouraged. This is the way the search for a boat often goes. There were a lot of Catalina 30s made. Your dreamboat will come along eventually.

I had a similar experience in searching for my boat. I had identified the perfect boat for me to be a Bristol 35.5. At the beginning of the Covid-19 shut down, I identified a boat about an hour south of Boston. The boat looked good, from the photos in the multiple ads. Unable to travel there, I hired a surveyor to survey it for me. I paid $600 for the survey and it did not survey well. It had a lot of updated electronics, and deferred maintenance issues.

The seller's broker had described the boat as needing "lots of TLC" but the survey revealed it to be closer to a project boat. If I lived within an hour of the boat, I would have considered offering half what the seller was asking, and spending my weekends working on it.

That wasn't realistic, and I was sad to have to pass on it. But a couple of months later, there were two other prospects on the Chesapeake Bay, one of them being the one I eventually bought.

Be patient and keep doing exactly as you're doing. You will eventually find your boat it will likely be one that will bring you many years of sailing pleasure. The boat you just passed up, would have brought you many years of work and headaches.


----------



## Minnewaska

Sending a massive list of questions, without an offer, makes one look like a nervous a potentially very time consuming buyer. In this market, there is likely another in line behind you. Appearing like a legit buyer worth spending time on is important. Go see the boat. Ask as many if these as you can, in person. Make an offer p, if acceptable, and ask the rest either before survey or during. Many, if not most , of your questions will get a subjective answer. Only you and your surveyor can assess one with your criteria.


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## PhilCarlson

Ya, that's an overwhelming list. I would tell you to come see the boat. Initial query should give you some background and rule out your deal breakers:
-Is the boat used regularly?
-Any major issues? (the answer will most likely be no, but this arms you for negotiation when you find a major issue.)
-Why are you selling?
-When can I see it?


----------



## JimInPB

lovebluewater said:


> So.... i saw another boat listed on craigslist.. smaller , as advised.. 27 foot catalina. 1983. I responded by asking a LOT of questions. Feel free to critic or just LOL if it's too much.
> 
> Here it is.
> 
> Is your boat still available?
> 
> If yes, tell me about your boat. I don't expect a perfect boat for the asking price, and not a perfect boat for its age. I just need to see what else needs to be done to make it better. Why are you selling it? How long have you owned it?
> 
> Tell me what is good and bad about your boat.
> 
> Deck- soft spots?
> 
> Condition of rigging? Blocks/ tackle/ lines/ sheets/ shrouds
> 
> Condition of sails?
> 
> Last time it was sailed?
> 
> Was is sailed regularly?
> 
> I see the Bimini is torn, but is the frame solid?
> 
> How is the steering? does it have an emergency tiller?
> 
> How is the rudder?
> 
> How is the prop?
> 
> When was the last bottom job done?
> 
> How are the lifelines, and stanchions? deck hardware? leaks?
> 
> Do the hatches leak? Portlights leak?
> 
> I see you have a chartpoltter, does it work?
> 
> Do you have a depth finder? Wind finder? Windex?
> 
> Cockpit cushions?
> 
> Does the manual bilge pump in the cockpit work? Does the auto bilge pump work?
> 
> Do the lines need changing? or just cleaned?
> 
> Do the nav lights work?
> 
> Does it have a VHF radio? does it work?
> 
> How are the batteries?
> 
> How is the electrical inside the boat?
> 
> How is the head? does it work?
> 
> How are the watertanks? Foot pump?
> 
> What type of engine? hours? Does it need work? Is the motor mount solid? ( Don't ask me why I ask!)
> 
> How is the galley? Tell me about the Galley please
> 
> What is the condition of the interior cushions.?
> 
> Is there wood rot in the boat?
> 
> How are the bulkheads? How are the chainplates?
> 
> How is the fuel tank?
> 
> How is the holding tank?
> 
> Does it have an anchor and rode? if yes, tell me about it please.
> 
> Anything else you know about the boat? Could you send additional photos?
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Christine


Those are all great questions, but if you hit the seller with all of those up front, it may give a negative impression of you as a nit-picky pain in the butt tire kicker that is looking for an excuse not to buy. I normally ask if the paperwork is unencumbered & in the seller's name, then ask to see the boat, unless it's a million miles away. Once I see the boat, I take a list like yours & go through it myself. If the boat passes my inspection, then the surveyor gets a call.

On first contact, a few friendly questions may be more appropriate, like -
How long have you had the boat?
Did you use it much?
Is it in common use now?
Why are you selling it?
Is a sea trial available for serious buyers? If so, what would that cost, and how would we go about scheduling it?


----------



## Minnewaska

JimInPB said:


> looking for an excuse not to buy


This is exactly the point. Any boat in reasonably good condition is in demand right now. You don't want the seller to think they're wasting their time.

Ask for a complete specification of the boat, if there is more than the ad contains. That's easy to forward. I often ask for more pictures, if they already exist. However, pics ALWAYS look better than in person. Some do use old pics, but current pics still look better.

The one and only question I ask at initial contact is, why is she for sale? Not sure I've always gotten an honest answer, but I've vetted that out as things progress and then I know how honest they are too.


----------



## emcentar

I'm kind of curious why a broker is selling a 1983 Catalina 27, and listing it on Craigslist. That's a thing? Brokers work on commission and no broker is making any money selling $9000-$15,000 boats which is why you almost never find a boat in this price range at a boatyard.


----------



## contrarian

I believe this is the boat the OP is talking about
Catalina 27 1983 - boats - by owner - marine sale
If a broker has this boat it's probably because they took it in order to sell another boat and whatever they get out of it is profit. Unfortunately it appears the OP is trying to locate a cheap boat and hasn't come to the realization that cheap boats are like unicorns in that they only exist in fairy tales. I was offered a Cheoy Lee Offshore 33 for free if I would just remove it from the yard. I took one look and said thanks but no thanks. Purchasing a "cheap" boat is just the price of admission into the game, after that the real fun begins and the money flows out like water through a sift. Some people have to learn this the hard way. A well kept 28 footer in good condition in the 15-20k range would be a much better bargain than the boat in question..


----------



## SchockT

contrarian said:


> I believe this is the boat the OP is talking about
> Catalina 27 1983 - boats - by owner - marine sale
> If a broker has this boat it's probably because they took it in order to sell another boat and whatever they get out of it is profit.


I find it hard to believe that the seller in that ad is a broker. A broker should know how to SELL a boat using good photos and a good writeup.

1 bad picture and a write up that doesn't even contain complete sentences is not how you sell a boat.

Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk


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## capttb

One bad photo is enough for the prudent mariner to shear off.


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## PhilCarlson

SchockT said:


> I find it hard to believe that the seller in that ad is a broker. A broker should know how to SELL a boat using good photos and a good writeup.
> 
> 1 bad picture and a write up that doesn't even contain complete sentences is not how you sell a boat.


I ran across an advert yesterday 45' sloop I forget the manufacturer. Brief description referred to the owner in the third person so I assume broker. I didn't scroll through the pics because the opening line was; "Hasn't been sailed in three years."


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## lovebluewater

midwesterner said:


> Don't get discouraged. This is the way the search for a boat often goes. There were a lot of Catalina 30s made. Your dreamboat will come along eventually.
> 
> I had a similar experience in searching for my boat. I had identified the perfect boat for me to be a Bristol 35.5. At the beginning of the Covid-19 shut down, I identified a boat about an hour south of Boston. The boat looked good, from the photos in the multiple ads. Unable to travel there, I hired a surveyor to survey it for me. I paid $600 for the survey and it did not survey well. It had a lot of updated electronics, and deferred maintenance issues.
> 
> The seller's broker had described the boat as needing "lots of TLC" but the survey revealed it to be closer to a project boat. If I lived within an hour of the boat, I would have considered offering half what the seller was asking, and spending my weekends working on it.
> 
> That wasn't realistic, and I was sad to have to pass on it. But a couple of months later, there were two other prospects on the Chesapeake Bay, one of them being the one I eventually bought.
> 
> Be patient and keep doing exactly as you're doing. You will eventually find your boat it will likely be one that will bring you many years of sailing pleasure. The boat you just passed up, would have brought you many years of work and headaches.


Thank you. It's a week later, and within a couple of days, the disappointment has faded, and I'm grateful to have not purchased it. And I'm really more educated now. Still so much to learn..but I'm getting there. I was supposed to be on my live aboard ASA 103/104 class this week, but it was canceled due to bad weather predicted. So, off work all week and nowhere to go...bummer! But, surprise! I get to have my very first root canal tomorrow! Yay me! And it's only going to cost $1300-1800. I know this sounds like a Debbie downer kinda story... and that's not me... I'm laughing at the irony of how Id thought this week would go verses how it is really going. It's funny to me. Just a 1st world speedbump... ?

Btw.. the weather has been heavy with rain.. some parts of south Louisiana are flooding.. and last year they were hit twice with a cat 5 hurricane! Pray for these folks! They have reason to be down .


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## Minnewaska

lovebluewater said:


> And I'm really more educated now


That's the right attitude. It will come in handy on your entire journey, right through ownership.



lovebluewater said:


> I get to have my very first root canal tomorrow! Yay me!


You'll do fine. I've had 4 now and they are nothing like their reputation. I do have one recommendation. Go to an endodontist. The specialists are faster, have more modern equipment and higher success rates. More expensive, but the prices your quoted should be in their range.

Modern anesthetics are remarkable. Tell them you don't want to feel it and you won't. Other than a small pinch of the needle or a minor sting along the way (less than a bee), where they just give you more. Its the needle injection sites in your gums that are sore the next day, but not painfully. It just feels a little beat up, but not like actual tooth pain. 24hrs later, it's like it never happened.


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## lovebluewater

Minnewaska said:


> This is exactly the point. Any boat in reasonably good condition is in demand right now. You don't want the seller to think they're wasting their time.
> 
> Ask for a complete specification of the boat, if there is more than the ad contains. That's easy to forward. I often ask for more pictures, if they already exist. However, pics ALWAYS look better than in person. Some do use old pics, but current pics still look better.
> 
> The one and only question I ask at initial contact is, why is she for sale? Not sure I've always gotten an honest answer, but I've vetted that out as things progress and then I know how honest they are too.


This is a thing I've been doing... when I see a boat...i take a ton of photos. Then I mirror them to my big screen tv and look at the photos enlarged... and I have the hubby or others look at them with me. It's been helpful.


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## lovebluewater

contrarian said:


> I believe this is the boat the OP is talking about
> Catalina 27 1983 - boats - by owner - marine sale
> If a broker has this boat it's probably because they took it in order to sell another boat and whatever they get out of it is profit. Unfortunately it appears the OP is trying to locate a cheap boat and hasn't come to the realization that cheap boats are like unicorns in that they only exist in fairy tales. I was offered a Cheoy Lee Offshore 33 for free if I would just remove it from the yard. I took one look and said thanks but no thanks. Purchasing a "cheap" boat is just the price of admission into the game, after that the real fun begins and the money flows out like water through a sift. Some people have to learn this the hard way. A well kept 28 footer in good condition in the 15-20k range would be a much better bargain than the boat in question..


Yep. That's the boat. It had issues for sure.. more rotten wood inside. Batteries dead.. so couldn't see engine run. Not been sailed in "a couple of years" ...which I'm figuring out the not sailed time is always shortened from reality. And a host if other red flags. A Quick look, and I thanked the guy for showing it to me.

I think I'm getting better at this (?)


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## PhilCarlson

lovebluewater said:


> I think I'm getting better at this (?)


Without a doubt!


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## emcentar

My advice as a first-time boat owner is to stay away from _anything_ that hasn't been sailed recently. Ideally, you want to boat that belongs to a current sailor, has been well-maintained, and they are selling because they are moving on to a different boat. 
Those boats are hard to find and you generally won't find them for under $15,000 (unless smaller than what you are looking at). But with your budget of $20,000 you can get one of these boats. You just need to be patient, and ready to jump when she comes along.

As others point out, the real cost of sailing isn't buying the boat, it's keeping her and maintaining her. You'll spend more than your purchase price in five years in slip fees, bottom paint, insurance, and regular maintenance. I just spent $200 on boat soap! And that's with a boat with no real problems. Real problems get real expensive, real fast. So it pays to be patient and wait for the right boat.


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## danvon

No kidding. That is one of the weakest ads I have ever seen. The condition of the bimini is cncerning - cant really tell anything more about the boat from the pix. Cat 27 is a fine first boat IMO.


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## lovebluewater

emcentar said:


> My advice as a first-time boat owner is to stay away from _anything_ that hasn't been sailed recently. Ideally, you want to boat that belongs to a current sailor, has been well-maintained, and they are selling because they are moving on to a different boat.
> Those boats are hard to find and you generally won't find them for under $15,000 (unless smaller than what you are looking at). But with your budget of $20,000 you can get one of these boats. You just need to be patient, and ready to jump when she comes along.
> 
> As others point out, the real cost of sailing isn't buying the boat, it's keeping her and maintaining her. You'll spend more than your purchase price in five years in slip fees, bottom paint, insurance, and regular maintenance. I just spent $200 on boat soap! And that's with a boat with no real problems. Real problems get real expensive, real fast. So it pays to be patient and wait for the right boat.


I will!

Im trying to learn as much as I can on other people's boats. I've got a long way to go, and so much to learn


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## fodao

Just my 2 cents, don't pay attention to people's negativity about owning a boat. If you are really into sailing and want to learn more and you want to have the freedom to do your own cruising, nothing better than getting your own boat! Ten years ago I got my first boat, a Jenneau 32 Attalia 1986, similar budget as yours. Boat had issues, like all of them have, but I had a lot of fun and learned a lot! 
No one buys a boat as an investment, it is a hobby and you have to spend money to enjoy your hobby. If a marina slip is too expensive, get a mooring ball, it is way cheaper! 
Keep searching and soon your will find something that works for you. Just make sure to get a good survey.


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## lovebluewater

fodao said:


> Just my 2 cents, don't pay attention to people's negativity about owning a boat. If you are really into sailing and want to learn more and you want to have the freedom to do your own cruising, nothing better than getting your own boat! Ten years ago I got my first boat, a Jenneau 32 Attalia 1986, similar budget as yours. Boat had issues, like all of them have, but I had a lot of fun and learned a lot!
> No one buys a boat as an investment, it is a hobby and you have to spend money to enjoy your hobby. If a marina slip is too expensive, get a mooring ball, it is way cheaper!
> Keep searching and soon your will find something that works for you. Just make sure to get a good survey.


Thank you! When your non sailing buddies out number the sailing ones by..500:1.. it's good to hear some positivity.

I do enjoy hearing comments like this.

Although, the sailors can be mighty negative too... " 6 days of work to one day of sailing "

Gee, I hope not.!


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## mstern

lovebluewater said:


> Thank you! When your non sailing buddies out number the sailing ones by..500:1.. it's good to hear some positivity.
> 
> I do enjoy hearing comments like this.
> 
> Although, the sailors can be mighty negative too... " 6 days of work to one day of sailing "
> 
> Gee, I hope not.!


Definitely not. Time sailing vs. time maintaining the boat is totally dependent on you. There are of course some things that have to be done. But I've found that a great many of the tasks that are discussed in this and other forums are truly optional. For example: waxing the boat. You can spend anywhere from a few hours to a few days on this task, depending on how important a mirror finish is to you. I wax my boat once in the spring, and I use a one-step (compound and wax in one) product. If I have someone to help me, I can knock off my Catalina 28 in a few hours. But you won't have to scratch too deeply here to find many that will use a three or four step process to "wax" their boat: compound, polish, polish again, then wax. Their boat will look great; much better than mine. But I consider mine to be good enough. If you minimize or eliminate some of the more cosmetic maintenance tasks, you will have much more time for sailing. Priorities, priorities. If the engine works, the sails go up and down, and there are no holes below the waterline, you can sail. The rest is gravy.


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## emcentar

Nah, it's never 6 days work to every sailing day, I probably spend six days doing 'boat work' a year, and most of those are preparing the boat for winter and recommissioning it in the spring. People who spend a lot more than that either have a project boat or really like working on their boats.

No one here is going to tell you boat ownership isn't worth it. We're just cautioning you away from the boats that aren't worth it.


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## lovebluewater

I could use some opinions and thoughts --

If you've been reading this discussion that I started, you'll see that I am barely qualified to call myself a novice sailor. I did take ASA 101, and I'm sailing with the local Yacht club on Wednesday nights. ( My ASA103/104 got cancelled due to weather)

One reason I want to find and purchase a sailboat is I feel I need my own boat to really learn how to sail. I need the trial and error, and to learn by doing. I want to sail in our lake, and gain experience, and go from there. 

1st question-- Do you all agree with this thinking?--owning a sailboat ? 

Next, here is where I start getting bummed out. Purchasing and owning a boat!! The hunt for purchasing has confirmed what everyone has told me about boats. They are expensive in every way. 

2nd question-- how much can I expect to spend on a boat that has only minor/moderate initial problems to tend to ? ( I wish this was as simple as buying a house!-- Certain neighborhoods, age of home, square footage = a formula to expect to pay for a home) 


3rd question-- Where are skilled boatyard employees? where is a good boat yard? And where is an honest crew of people to do the work without overcharging? If I could avoid hiring people to do anything I would! I will do my best to "figure it out". So far, my experience is that these workers see me as a blank check. I was laughed at when I asked questions about a bottom job and blister repairs on the boat I almost bought..-- the yacht painter laughed and said, " OMG you're writing everything down!" He would quote a dollar number per blister for example, but luckily I had the forethought to ask if that included the materials necessary-- and he said it didn't. And I asked then how much are the materials-- And he danced around that answer. It was at that point that I realized this guy was definitely not my friend ( even though I'd been talking to him over the last 6 months about boat projects for the future boat I'd hope to find) . 

I have no problem paying for quality work on an agreed price. But I could see that it was a bait situation, and I'd be stuck at a boat yard at their mercy once in the middle of it--

One part of the approach to purchasing for me was to feel comfortable with the place I'd have to resort to for repairs or improvements. And I haven't even met a mechanic yet. For the maintenance of an engine, I'm dedicated to DIY-- even though I'll need to learn this skill. But for the more in depth problems, I'll need a mechanic. 

I don't mean to whine, but I do get overwhelmed with this process. Sailing is supposed to be fun, right?


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## TakeFive

My advice is to get the smallest boat that you can put up with and the newest boat that you can afford. 11 years ago I spent 6 months shopping for boats in the 25-35 foot range. I bought a 1998 Catalina 250 for $14,000 cash - the very bottom of my size range and new enough to be in true sail-away condition. (Outboard motor lowers the risk because it's so easily replaced if you got a bad one. My motor was great, but you never really know until after you buy.) I made some upgrades to the electronics, and did normal maintenance. After 6 years I bought a larger boat (also in sail-away condition), listed the C250 for $14,000 on Craigslist and sold it in 3 days for asking price. Before listing it I stripped all the new electronics off (replaced them with what came with the boat) and moved them to my next boat.

Remember, you pay the same storage and docking fees for a project boat that you do for a newer boat of a given size. Your ongoing costs for a smaller/newer boat will always be lower, and it will be easier to sell when you want to move to your next boat. Accept that your first boat will not be your last boat. Don't start with a project boat if you want to be sailing. There's plenty of grunt work to do maintaining a turnkey boat, so starting with a project boat can be overwhelming, and you still need to pay storage fees while you do the work. It's not a fun way for most people to start.


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## SanderO

This is acheivable. Any used boat with have "issues". Some fatal or too expensive ones. Others the boat will be usable and the repairs can be done by the owner or by the owner paying contractors of a boat yard.

I see many boats listed on FB market place, Craigslist ranging in OAL from 20s to low 30s. It seems that the owners lost interest, or can't continue owning/maintaining/sailing... but are not necessarily derelict major project boats. Find out when they were last used... recent use is a good sign. Many are very inexpensive. ALL USED BOATS NEED REPAIRS AND MAINTENANCE. It's likely that one on the market the owner has stopped doing that once they decided to sell.... figuring the it will be the new owner's concern. Few sellers get everything in perfect order for a sale. Look for a sail away boat not one that requires repairs and work just to sail it.

PLAN
Make a budget for purchase including survey, necessary repairs, insurance, mooring or dock, and not mission critical, but desirable upgrades. You can sail with old sails that are in good repair but a bit stretched out for example, or tired running rigging. You want sound rigging, steering, hull, basic plumbing and electric/lighting. AP is great and I think mission critical for short and single handing. If there is no AP or it is not working you should consider the cost of getting one ASAP.

Research boats online and list the ones that look like they would work for you. Not too small just for day sails. Moving up is size is expensive and time consuming. A small inexpensive boat that you don't dump a lot of money into is one way to dip your toe in the water. But a boat of the size, config and with a equipment list you ultimately want in decent condition means you can get right into learning and sailing and upgrading. Try to get on the boats that interest you. Being THERE is a huge difference from photos. A broker could be helpful... but these days there are a lot of for sale by owner. But there is peril in that approach because you need to be a VERY knowledgeable buyer which you are not. That means you need help from a surveyor or friend who IS knowledgeable... friends don't cost, surveyors do. I visited boats with a knowledgeable friend who was looking for a used boat who want a second pair of eyes. They were interesting experiences. We traveled many miles and visited several nice boats. Having a sailing buddy or partner is a good idea for many reasons. Cost is halved, work is halved, sailing is easier and safer.. two minds are usually better than one.

You can pick the brains of sailors here. Post the info about a boat you are interested in. Take, study and send the pics for opinions. Pictures are worth a thousand words. Don't forget the details. If it's to be a starter boat, cosmetics are not terribly important. You want sound bones and reliable basic equipment. Building from there is part of learning.


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## Minnewaska

lovebluewater said:


> Do you all agree with this thinking?--owning a sailboat ?


While not absolutely necessary, I believe the joy and experience are improved with my own. I also know how my boat has been treated, it's the way I left it and I learn more by being fully responsible, not just a renter that turns the squawks in to the office.



lovebluewater said:


> how much can I expect to spend on a boat that has only minor/moderate initial problems to tend to ?


That's a "how long is a piece of string" question. You can buy a used dinghy sailor for a thousand or an luxurious ocean cruiser for a million.



lovebluewater said:


> Where are skilled boatyard employees?


This is a complex question. Incompetence abounds in the marine trades. I don't think it pays particularly well, despite what we're charged. There is enormous overhead. For two decades, there was declining enrollment in trade schools, although, it is picking back up now. It created a backlog of skill shortage.

On the other hand, unlike your car, which is identical to the other 100,000 made, your boat is far more unique. It's likely been modified too, so each project is approached with more discovery. The marine environment is brutal. I think it took me decades to finally understand that every project will be more involved than it appears. Something else will break on the way in or out. Something unrelated will be discovered. It makes jobs hard to quote, but it should still be possible for the known work. Personally, I find asking fir a quote puts me at the back of the line. It's painful. If you find a good, reliable, honest, competent tradesman, pay them what they ask.


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## SanderO

Minnewaska said:


> While not absolutely necessary, I believe the joy and experience are improved with my own. I also know how my boat has been treated, it's the way I left it and I learn more by being fully responsible, not just a renter that turns the squawks in to the office.
> 
> That's a "how long is a piece of string" question. You can buy a used dinghy sailor for a thousand or an luxurious ocean cruiser for a million.
> 
> This is a complex question. Incompetence abounds in the marine trades. I don't think it pays particularly well, despite what we're charged. There is enormous overhead. For two decades, there was declining enrollment in trade schools, although, it is picking back up now. It created a backlog of skill shortage.
> 
> On the other hand, unlike your car, which is identical to the other 100,000 made, your boat is far more unique. It's likely been modified too, so each project is approached with more discovery. The marine environment is brutal. I think it took me decades to finally understand that every project will be more involved than it appears. Something else will break on the way in or out. Something unrelated will be discovered. It makes jobs hard to quote, but it should still be possible for the known work. Personally, I find asking fir a quote puts me at the back of the line. It's painful. If you find a good, reliable, honest, competent tradesman, pay them what they ask.


Good summary by Minni.
Some projects you need to contract out. Some of those you can get a price before the work is done. For example a sailmaker can quote you without even seeing the boat if he knows the model. He should measure before making or use and old sail as guide. New rigging can be priced and even bought online.... send the diameter the type of wire, the length and the end hardware specs (and a pic)... You can DIY standing rigging with StaLoks or Norseman hardware. 
Engine work can be a DIY project if you know and have the tools. This is often better left to a good mechanic... expensive and probably won't get a reliable estimate except hrly rate.

Most equipment you can and *SHOULD *install yourself so you are familiar with the boat's systems:
new pumps, wiring, batteries, alternator/regulator, lighting, instruments, auto pilot, new head...
refrigeration can be a DIY or and expensive pro install... depends. Same applies to heating. Most of these systems installations are not rocket science... you need a drill, and some basic tools and parts.
all cosmetic work should be DIY. Blister repair can be DIY but it is a learned skill. Avoid boats with blisters.

Essentially you will become a competent person to service every system on your boat. And this is mission critical if you own a boat and get out sailing off the grid. You need to be mechanically/technically self sufficient as possible. Diesel maintenance is DIY... oil and filter changes, impeller replacement... event pump replacement.

You don't have to be familiar with engines to own and maintain a diesel, You do need to be mechanically adroit and you will need the right tools and parts. Try to avoid going to marine mechanics... you will pay dearly for it.


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## mstern

I think you are spot on: you can learn to sail on someone else's boat, but there's nothing like having your own. Don't let the boat buying process get you down: if you want to sail, it doesn't take much for a boat to be turn-key. Think of this as your first boat, not your forever boat. Instead of looking for a 30 foot boat, start looking at 22-25 foot boats. Your costs will be lower, your maintenance will be waaaaay easier, and they are generally more responsive sailers, which means you will learn faster. All you really need is a boat with a deck that doesn't leak into the cabin (much), serviceable sails, and an engine that works. Everything else is gravy. That's how I approached my first big boy boat. I bought an Oday 23 that had some soft spots on the deck, and inoperative water system, and no electrical system to speak of. The sails were blown out and the outboard was as old as the boat itself. The plan was to keep the boat for a few years and then move up (or out). I wound up keeping the boat for almost twenty years before upgrading a few years ago. I learned how to do everything on that boat, from electrical to fiberglass work. 

You got this.


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## PhilCarlson

lovebluewater said:


> 1st question-- Do you all agree with this thinking?--owning a sailboat ?


Yes, but you don't have to start there. You're sailing and learning. Keep at that. I'd put off 103/104 for a while, you'll benefit more from those courses with more sailing experience. Bide your time, refine your criteria and be ready to purchase when the right one comes along. Be open to changing your criteria as you learn.



lovebluewater said:


> 2nd question-- how much can I expect to spend on a boat that has only minor/moderate initial problems to tend to ? ( I wish this was as simple as buying a house!-- Certain neighborhoods, age of home, square footage = a formula to expect to pay for a home)


No real answer to that... I guess you can expect to spend your budget.



lovebluewater said:


> 3rd question-- Where are skilled boatyard employees? where is a good boat yard? And where is an honest crew of people to do the work without overcharging?


When you find them, let me know. But seriously, they are out there, word of mouth will sort them out.

I just did a mast re-wire and anchor light replacement for friends who had hired a well reputed rigger to do the job. Four visits, screwed it up, lied about what they did and never finished. This was a company with tons of 5 star reviews. I had the job done in 4 hours. So I guess the moral of that is a really good rigger who says they can rewire your mast, may not be up to it.

The only real way to know you're not overpaying is to understand what's involved with the job, and supervise it. I'm sure there are plenty of people around the yacht club who would welcome an extra set of hands, for various projects that you could learn from.

You're getting tons of great advice, and you are asking the right questions. It all seems overwhelming everything does until you build a degree of confidence. It's all just stuff to learn, you can learn stuff, you've been doing it your whole life. Just take it a step at a time.


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## SanderO

Summary - How to do any boat project 

1. Identify the project - What is the problem, what has to be repaired or replaced? Document the project with lots of photos of the existing condition... You may need measurements as well. Keep the measurements on your phone / computer... not on scraps of paper.

2. List the parts and materials you need. Research buying options. You don't have to buy the more expensive "marine" product in most cases. Develop sources for supplies. Purchase all needed supplies. Don't forget solvents, lubricants, screws, washers, etc. Always have extra screws, washers, nuts, connectors...

3. Identify all the tools you need. If you don't have you have to borrow (difficult) or buy. Sandpaper, Scotchbrite, tape, clamps, drill bits and flashlights (batteries) are tools, for example. If you need AC power what will be the source?

4. Visualize the project. List every step and the materials and tools needed for that step. Estimate the time for each step... then multiply it by 2 per better yet 3. Allow time for clean up... along the way and at the end.

5. Schedule the work selecting a day with cooperating weather and light. 

6. Execute the plan. Work clean and be organized.... not doing so can waste a lot of time, Document each step with photos and measurements as they may be useful in the future. Clean up and test if necessary the work. Relax and reward yourself for a job well done.


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## JimsCAL

The biggest savings you can make in owning a boat is to do repairs and maintenance yourself. The hourly rate for work at a marina will curl your hair, plus jobs seem to take 2 or 3 times what you would expect. As a minimum, do the jobs that are simple but take time like waxing the topsides, sanding and painting the bottom, etc. and work your way up to more complicated tasks as your skills develop.


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## lovebluewater

So, I'm finally getting the smaller boat idea through my thick head..LOL! And i found this listing on craigslist and Facebook market place. It is trailerable, & close to my home. I think it is priced a bit high. And it has been covered in his yard since 2014... yikes!









1990 Catalina '25 Sailboat with Shoreline Trailer - READY to SAIL! -...


Clean, ready to launch, Catalina 25. This sailboat has the rare and sought-after wing keel. With custom-made shoreline trailer, and in ready to sail condition. 2 owner vessel only. Seller purchased...



gulfport.craigslist.org





Thoughts?

I love the group effort!


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## Jeff_H

lovebluewater said:


> I feel I need my own boat to really learn how to sail. I need the trial and error, and to learn by doing. I want to sail in our lake, and gain experience, and go from there.
> 
> _1st question-- Do you all agree with this thinking?--owning a sailboat ?_


Mostly.... Starting by getting the first big "Duh!" out of the way, all people learn differently. But for those that I have been around who are just getting started in the sport, the fastest learning curve is a mix of reading to understand the basics, getting out on the water- doing a lot of sailing, and getting coaching or classes along the way to answer questions that pop up or fill in the gaps that you didn't know you have, There are people do solely learn by reading and doing, but it does help to have someone who can provide insights and suggestions along the way.

_


lovebluewater said:



Next, here is where I start getting bummed out. Purchasing and owning a boat!! The hunt for purchasing has confirmed what everyone has told me about boats. They are expensive in every way.

Click to expand...

_The second big "Duh!" .... even free boats aren't exactly free, but there are a lot of relatively inexpensive ways to get into sailing, some include owning your own smallish boat, but others include finding a boat that is almost never used and approaching the owner to see whether they would be interested in shared costs and letting you come along when the owner went out. I did that for years by looking at a grungy boat in a marina and asking in the office about it. The marina was more than willing to contact the owner and see if they were interested in assistance with the boat. In my case I had a lot of experience sailing and working on boats, and so would often kick in keeping the boat cleaned up, and putting in the maintenance labor. Some owners I learned from...some I taught, Getting aboard a race boat is another great (almost free) way to learn.

_


lovebluewater said:



2nd question-- how much can I expect to spend on a boat that has only minor/moderate initial problems to tend to ? ( I wish this was as simple as buying a house!-- Certain neighborhoods, age of home, square footage = a formula to expect to pay for a home)

Click to expand...

_In normal times you should be able to find decent 22 to 27 footers in sailable condition for well under $10K. A friend of mine bought a 17 footer for a few hundred dollars and put the boat and the trailer into shape for not all that much money. Last year he was given a 30 footer. He rebuilt the engine and he and I rebuilt the bulkheads. But now even the junkyard dogs are treated as pedigree,

_


lovebluewater said:



3rd question--  Where are skilled boatyard employees? where is a good boat yard? And where is an honest crew of people to do the work without overcharging? If I could avoid hiring people to do anything I would! I will do my best to "figure it out". So far, my experience is that these workers see me as a blank check. I was laughed at when I asked questions about a bottom job and blister repairs on the boat I almost bought..-- the yacht painter laughed and said, " OMG you're writing everything down!" He would quote a dollar number per blister for example, but luckily I had the forethought to ask if that included the materials necessary-- and he said it didn't. And I asked then how much are the materials-- And he danced around that answer. It was at that point that I realized this guy was definitely not my friend ( even though I'd been talking to him over the last 6 months about boat projects for the future boat I'd hope to find) . 
I have no problem paying for quality work on an agreed price. But I could see that it was a bait situation, and I'd be stuck at a boat yard at their mercy once in the middle of it--

Click to expand...

_Learning to maintain a boat (like learning to sail) is a kind of apprenticeship. You learn part of it by reading, part of it by doing, but it sure helps to have someone who knows what they are doing walk you through it. I do want to talk about boat yard pricing. There is a tendency to expect fixed prices for things in life. The car dealerships give you a 'book quote' based on how long the job should take. But that book price does not take into account when a stud snaps off or there is hidden damage that gets discovered, Boats are like that in spades.

To give you an example, this weekend the rain stopped for a little while and I had an hour or so to kill. My lower shrouds needed more tension, so I figured that I would get that done. I have adjusted the rigging 10-15 times since I own this boat and I knew the drill. I grabbed the 1/2" wrench, the small prybar, a needle nose plier, a can of 3 in1 oil and some Lanocote. I followed the usual routine: 
put a little 3 in1 oil on the threads,
pull all of the cotter pins.
hold the top swage with the 1/2" wrench,
gently move the turnbuckle body quarter turns back and forth with the prybar until it turns smoothly,
Load up the inside threads with Lanacote and back off the threads 10-12 turns counting as I go.
load up the outside threads with Lanacote
Tighten the turnbuckle body the 10-12 turns plus the new 4 turns and put the pins back in.

15-20 minutes into the project, I had one side done. Then I started the other side. The turnbuckle was frozen and would not move at all, So I started with liquid wrench, moved on the PB Blaster, Over a day or so, I worked on it maybe 6-8 times, maybe 10-15 minutes each time, Finally I was able to back it off without undue force. But because it was originally frozen I wanted to see all of the threads that had been inside the turnbuckle. I exposed them and cleaned them with alcohol, got a magnifying glass looking for defects, ran a cotton ball around feeling for defects, lubed it all up and tensioned back up.

So if you asked me how long to tension the rig, I would have said less than an hour including clean-up. If both sides of the rig went the same. I would have been right., But one side alone took way over an hour of labor, spread out over several days, which meant putting tools, solvents and cleaning materials away and breaking them out again. Plus the clean-up was worse due to overspray from the PB Blaster. I am not sure that a boat yard would have done as careful a job, and maybe there would have been a shorter walk to the workshop for supplies, but you get the point., Similarly if you asked the boatyard how long would be required to tension my rig, the yard might have said, "It typically takes an hour. or less". But if you had a boat with a set of uppers, and forward, and aft lowers (I only have aft lowers and a single set of uppers) and all six turnbuckles were frozen, it could easily have required 6-8 hours of labor and a can of PB Blaster.

You mentioned blisters....like most boats from the late 1970's and through the late 1980's, my boat has some gelcoat adhesion issues. Even with a barrier coat, on a typical haul out, she usually shows up with a few small blisters. Its usually no bid deal. I chisel them out, and they are filled with thickened epoxy, sanded faired and life goes on. The second haul out after I bought the boat there was a badly blistered spot on the hull. I started with a chisel, then a grinder, digging into thickened polyester and small patches of bad laminate. Once down to solid laminate, I ended up with a 6" x 8" area maybe 3/16" deep. It turned out to be a thru-hull that someone abandoned and badly sealed up. I tapered the grind, glassed it back with multiple layers of glass and epoxy, ground it roughly fair, and then faired it with thickened epoxy. I had a silly amount of time in that. While I had maybe 2-3 hours and $20 worth of material chiseling, sanding, filling, fairing and reapplying the barrier coating on all of the other blisters. I probably spent at least double that much time and double the materials on just that one patch that simply looked like a few closely spaced small blisters. Which is why Boatyards, even honest boat yards, don't like to give fixed quotes.

_


lovebluewater said:



One part of the approach to purchasing for me was to feel comfortable with the place I'd have to resort to for repairs or improvements. And I haven't even met a mechanic yet. For the maintenance of an engine, I'm dedicated to DIY-- even though I'll need to learn this skill. But for the more in depth problems, I'll need a mechanic.

Click to expand...

_Finding good people is never easy. In major sailing centers, there are a spectrum of the good the bad and the ugly. In less sailing oriented areas, your chouices tend to be slim, and the quality falls somewhere in the range of 'beggars can't be choosers" to "they were a lot better than I had feared". In larger sailing centers, there are places that the locals know to use for various reasons. I have had my boats worked on for 30 years by a local yard that the racers use. The prices are fair and the work was very good. They neither padded the work nor skimped on what needed to be done. Folks around did not think of them as a 'fine yacht yard' even though they could do that kind of work if requested., But they were honest, cared about what they did and the people that came to them year after year. The owner of that yard has retired this year so I find myself trying to decide what to do for my next haul out. I am asking around and scoping it out since I am not the only one who is in this position.



lovebluewater said:


> I don't mean to whine, but I do get overwhelmed with this process. Sailing is supposed to be fun, right?


You are not whining. Complaining about boat yards probably is as old as sailing itself, and as venerable as sea stories about getting caught in some grand storm and fighting your way to safety while beating your arch rival in some passage time.

Jeff


----------



## emcentar

If you want to get the most time on the water sailing, your best bet is a sailing club with club races.

If most of the time you have to sail is vacations, you can charter, or buy a small daysailor or beach cat you can trailer to the beach/lake.

If you want to stretch your coastal cruising skills, like docking, coastal navigation, trip planning, anchoring, provisioning, diesel maintenance, boat systems, and go out for multi-day adventures, you need your own boat


----------



## contrarian

Just my personal thoughts on the Catalina 25. 
While it may be on a trailer you really shouldn't think of it as a "Trailer Sailer". I believe you either need to move down in size and weight if you want a true trailer sailor or move up in size to something in the 27-28' range if you are going to keep the boat in a slip. The first boat I ever went sailing on was a Catalina 25 albeit an older vintage. I didn't realize how slow and un responsive it was until after I had owned my Pearson 26 OD for a while. The Pearson was not that fast of a boat but it would literally sail circles around the Catalina 25. My suggestion would be to bide your time and try to find something along the lines of a Catalina 27 which still isn't quite as fast as the Pearson 26, a Hunter 28 or 28.5 or better still if you can find one a Pearson 28-2. If you want something that's a real blast to sail check out a Choate 27. I haven't seen one in a while but they were able to eat my lunch even on corrected time. I know Jeff H will probably chime in here about his Laser 28 which is indeed rated 18 sec. per mile faster than the Choate but back in the early 2000's the Lasers were twice the price and harder to find. For the money the Choate was a great boat.
My little Pearson by the way had been Stephen Fahrer's from Atlantic Sail Traders and was well known on Sarasota Bay. Let's just say it had a few modifications..... one was a non stock rudder designed some guy named Lars who was a friend of Steve and did some design work for Hunter as well . I was never a good enough sailor to do it justice but it sure was a lot of fun.


----------



## PhilCarlson

lovebluewater said:


> So, I'm finally getting the smaller boat idea through my thick head..LOL! And i found this listing on craigslist and Facebook market place. It is trailerable, & close to my home. I think it is priced a bit high. And it has been covered in his yard since 2014... yikes!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1990 Catalina '25 Sailboat with Shoreline Trailer - READY to SAIL! -...
> 
> 
> Clean, ready to launch, Catalina 25. This sailboat has the rare and sought-after wing keel. With custom-made shoreline trailer, and in ready to sail condition. 2 owner vessel only. Seller purchased...
> 
> 
> 
> gulfport.craigslist.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> I love the group effort!


I agree with @contrarian, It's a bit heavy to be considered a trailer sailor. I also agree with you that it is priced a bit high. It's in good condition for being laid up so long. Consider that the trailer is probably worth a couple $K, and outboard motors in good working order aren't cheap either.

Since it's close to home, I'd go kick the tires and see if they are willing to negotiate.


----------



## lovebluewater

Jeff_H said:


> Mostly.... Starting by getting the first big "Duh!" out of the way, all people learn differently. But for those that I have been around who are just getting started in the sport, the fastest learning curve is a mix of reading to understand the basics, getting out on the water- doing a lot of sailing, and getting coaching or classes along the way to answer questions that pop up or fill in the gaps that you didn't know you have, There are people do solely learn by reading and doing, but it does help to have someone who can provide insights and suggestions along the way.
> 
> The second big "Duh!" .... even free boats aren't exactly free, but there are a lot of relatively inexpensive ways to get into sailing, some include owning your own smallish boat, but others include finding a boat that is almost never used and approaching the owner to see whether they would be interested in shared costs and letting you come along when the owner went out. I did that for years by looking at a grungy boat in a marina and asking in the office about it. The marina was more than willing to contact the owner and see if they were interested in assistance with the boat. In my case I had a lot of experience sailing and working on boats, and so would often kick in keeping the boat cleaned up, and putting in the maintenance labor. Some owners I learned from...some I taught, Getting aboard a race boat is another great (almost free) way to learn.
> 
> In normal times you should be able to find decent 22 to 27 footers in sailable condition for well under $10K. A friend of mine bought a 17 footer for a few hundred dollars and put the boat and the trailer into shape for not all that much money. Last year he was given a 30 footer. He rebuilt the engine and he and I rebuilt the bulkheads. But now even the junkyard dogs are treated as pedigree,
> 
> Learning to maintain a boat (like learning to sail) is a kind of apprenticeship. You learn part of it by reading, part of it by doing, but it sure helps to have someone who knows what they are doing walk you through it. I do want to talk about boat yard pricing. There is a tendency to expect fixed prices for things in life. The car dealerships give you a 'book quote' based on how long the job should take. But that book price does not take into account when a stud snaps off or there is hidden damage that gets discovered, Boats are like that in spades.
> 
> To give you an example, this weekend the rain stopped for a little while and I had an hour or so to kill. My lower shrouds needed more tension so I figured that I would get that done. I have adjusted the rigging 10-15 times since I own this boat and I knew the drill. I grabbed the 1/2" wrench, the small prybar, a needle nose plier, a can of 3 in1 oil and some Lanocote. I followed the usual routine:
> put a little 3in1 oil on the threads,
> pull all of the cotter pins.
> hold the tap swage with the 1/2" wrench,
> gently move the turnbuckle body quarter turns back and forth with the prybar until it turns smoothly,
> Load up the inside threads with Lanacote and back off the threads 10-12 turns counting as I go.
> load up the outside threads with Lanacote
> Tighten the turnbuckle body the 10-12 turns plus the new 4 turns and put the pins back in.
> 
> 15-20 minutes into the project, I had one side done. Then I started the other side. The turnbuckle was frozen and would not move at all, So I started with liquid wrench, moved on the PB Blaster, Over a day or so, I worked in it maybe 6-8 times, maybe 10-15 minutes each time, Finally I was able to back it off without undue force. But because it was originally frozen I wanted to see all of the threads that had been inside the turnbuckle. I exposed them and cleaned them with alcohol, got a magnifying glass looking for defects, ran a cotton ball around feeling for defects, lubed it all up and tensioned back up.
> 
> So if you asked me how long to tension the rig, I would have said less than an hour including clean-up. If both sides went the same. I would have been right., But one side alone took way over an hour of labor, spread out over several days, which meant putting tools, solvents and cleaning materials away and breaking them out again. Plus the clean-up was worse due to overspray from the PB Blaster. I am not sure that a boat yard would have done as careful a job, and maybe there would have been a shorter walk to the workshop for supplies, but you get the point., Simuilarly if you asked the boatyard how long would be required to tension my rig, the yard might have said, "It typically takes an hour. or less". But if you had a boat with a set of uppers, and forward, and aft lowers (I only have aft lowers and a single set of uppers) and all six turnbuckles were frozen, it could easily have required 6-8 hours of labor.
> 
> You mentioned blisters....like most boats from the late 1970's and into the 1980's, my boat has some gelcoat adhesion issues. Even with a barrier coat, on a typical haul out, she usually shows up with a few small blisters. Its usually no bid deal. I chisel them out, and they are filled with thickened epoxy. The second haul out after I bought the boat there was a badly blistered spot on the hull. I started with a chisel, then a grinder, digging into thickened polyester and small patches of bad laminate, and ended up with a 6" x 8" area maybe 3/16" deep. It turned out to be a thru-hull that someone badly sealed up. I tapered the grind, glassed it back with multiple layers of glass and epoxy, ground it roughly fair, and then faired it with thickened epoxy. I had a silly amount of time in that. While I had maybe 2-3 hours and $20 worth of material chiseling, sanding, filling, fairing and barrier coating all of the other blisters. I probably spent at least that much time and double the materials on just that one patch that simply looked like a few closely spaced small blisters. Which is why Boatyards, even honest boat yards don't like to give fixed quotes.
> 
> Finding good people is never easy. In major sailing centers, there are a spectrum of the good the bad and the ugly. In less sailing oriented areas, your chouices tend to be slim, and the quality falls somewhere in the range of 'beggars can't be choosers" to "they were a lot better than I had feared". In larger sailing centers, there are places that the locals know to use for various reasons. I have had my boats worked on for 30 years by a local yard that the racers use. The prices are fair and the work was very good. They neither padded the work nor skimped on what needed to be done. Folks around did not think of them as a 'fine yacht yard' even though they could do that kind of work if requested., But they were honest, cared about what they did and the people that came to them year after year. The owner of that yard has retired this year so I find myself trying to decide what to do for my next haul out. I am asking around and scoping it out since I am not the only one who is in this position.
> 
> You are not whining. Complaining about boat yards probably is as old as sailing itself, and as venerable as sea stories about getting caught in some grand storm and fighting your way to safety while beating your arch rival in some passage time.
> 
> Jeff


----------



## lovebluewater

One of the reasons i originally didn't want a trailer sailboat was because I am confident that it could wind up being a giant paperweight in my driveway. I plan on renting a slip even with the smaller boat. I will use it more with easy acess. Slips for a boat this size would be under $200/mo.. ( ? $172) with electric and water.. this is at a decent marina , easy access to lake pontchartrain, & optional yacht club. The advantage of the trailer is being able to pull it out for hurricanes, do my bottom job in my own yard at home, and repairs at home if I wanted or needed to. I'm a long way away from wanting anything fast ( I think?) . I'm just getting nicely warmed up to the smaller trailer sailboat. 

What else should I consider?

One of my far out there goals is to become skilled and confident enough to charter vacations with the hubby. ...BVI, the Florida Keys, etc... Do you think starting with a boat like this is a path to getting there?


----------



## lovebluewater

What I don't like about this one is that it has been unsailed since 2014! I know a boat living in the water all that time would be horrible. But this one has been out of tje water..which is ?ok?... y'all tell me what you think?

Ideally I would find a boat loved by her owner, and pretty recently sailed.. ... perhaps the owner was loving sailing so much that it was time to move up.... But i haven't seen any like this yet. Every last one was because "they hadn't sailed it enough any more" turns out most haven't been touched in years. That's what I'm finding on my searches anyway. 🙄


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## mstern

lovebluewater said:


> One of the reasons i originally didn't want a trailer sailboat was because I am confident that it could wind up being a giant paperweight in my driveway. I plan on renting a slip even with the smaller boat. I will use it more with easy acess. Slips for a boat this size would be under $200/mo.. ( ? $172) with electric and water.. this is at a decent marina , easy access to lake pontchartrain, & optional yacht club. The advantage of the trailer is being able to pull it out for hurricanes, do my bottom job in my own yard at home, and repairs at home if I wanted or needed to. I'm a long way away from wanting anything fast ( I think?) . I'm just getting nicely warmed up to the smaller trailer sailboat.
> 
> What else should I consider?
> 
> One of my far out there goals is to become skilled and confident enough to charter vacations with the hubby. ...BVI, the Florida Keys, etc... Do you think starting with a boat like this is a path to getting there?


Just because you can trailer a boat doesn't mean you have to. I had a "trailerable" boat for almost twenty years, and it never touched a trailer. I kept her at a dock, and then stored her at the marina off season. For me, the advantages of the trailerable size wasn't that I could actually trailer the boat, but that it was cheap to buy, less expensive to maintain, and easy to single hand. And to answer your specific question about "is this the right path to being able to charter?": absolutely. The skills you need to sail a 25 footer are exactly the same as for a 40 footer. There are differences to be sure: everything is bigger and the loads are greater on a forty footer. But you can be prepared for those things. About the only thing that is really different that you can't truly prepare for on your smaller boat is docking the bigger boat. And I wouldn't worry too much about that for a charter; the company generally undocks and docks the boat for you to avoid just those problems.

One last thing: just because a boat hasn't been sailed in a few years doesn't have to be the kiss of death, especially for a smaller boat. On a small boat, you don't have the myriad of systems that need constant maintenance to avoid failure. The real key is proper stowage. If the boat's been covered and the sails properly stowed away, then things may be just fine. Check to make sure that the electrical system isn't shot, that the engine works and the sails are serviceable. If those things check out, then the lack of use for a small boat isn't really a problem.


----------



## lovebluewater

mstern said:


> Just because you can trailer a boat doesn't mean you have to. I had a "trailerable" boat for almost twenty years, and it never touched a trailer. I kept her at a dock, and then stored her at the marina off season. For me, the advantages of the trailerable size wasn't that I could actually trailer the boat, but that it was cheap to buy, less expensive to maintain, and easy to single hand. And to answer your specific question about "is this the right path to being able to charter?": absolutely. The skills you need to sail a 25 footer are exactly the same as for a 40 footer. There are differences to be sure: everything is bigger and the loads are greater on a forty footer. But you can be prepared for those things. About the only thing that is really different that you can't truly prepare for on your smaller boat is docking the bigger boat. And I wouldn't worry too much about that for a charter; the company generally undocks and docks the boat for you to avoid just those problems.
> 
> One last thing: just because a boat hasn't been sailed in a few years doesn't have to be the kiss of death, especially for a smaller boat. On a small boat, you don't have the myriad of systems that need constant maintenance to avoid failure. The real key is proper stowage. If the boat's been covered and the sails properly stowed away, then things may be just fine. Check to make sure that the electrical system isn't shot, that the engine works and the sails are serviceable. If those things check out, then the lack of use for a small boat isn't really a problem.


Good to hear. He said it has been under a tarp all this time. I am told some engine servicing is to be expected when not used... i think it also depends on if ethanol gas was used on the outboard engine ..?


----------



## PhilCarlson

lovebluewater said:


> One of my far out there goals is to become skilled and confident enough to charter vacations with the hubby. ...BVI, the Florida Keys, etc... Do you think starting with a boat like this is a path to getting there?


Yes, it is.


----------



## Minnewaska

lovebluewater said:


> One of my far out there goals is to become skilled and confident enough to charter vacations with the hubby. ...BVI, the Florida Keys, etc... Do you think starting with a boat like this is a path to getting there?


Owning your own boat is definitely a path to being able to rent a bareboat, if that's what you meant by charter. However, your experience will dictate what you can bareboat. Generally, you wouldn't be permitted to charter anything substantially larger than you are experienced handling. I don't know if I've seen a bareboat smaller than the mid-30s, although, that might work with good experience on a smaller keel boat. The bareboat fleets do seem to be favoring larger vessels (40+). They might be tough, if your experience is on a sub-30. Only way to know is to ask them.


----------



## mstern

lovebluewater said:


> Good to hear. He said it has been under a tarp all this time. I am told some engine servicing is to be expected when not used... i think it also depends on if ethanol gas was used on the outboard engine ..?


Be alert: a tarp over a frame that allows air to circulate while still keeping water off the boat is key. If water can get in anywhere, it can be a problem. There's a sweet spot between the shrink wrap with no ventilation and the loose tarp that lets in quite a bit of rain. Be especially careful about the cockpit. Lots of people think that if they keep water off the cabin top and most of the deck, it's fine. But leaves and other debris will collect in the cockpit, clog the drains, and make a little lake. That can be a big problem. Check the integrity of the deck near any drains in the cockpit. Standing water will often find it's way under the drain fittings, getting into the core and causing rot and delamination. And the air circulation is crucial: if the boat is wrapped up too tight, there will be mold and mildew. Check the corners and deck, especially near the bulkheads. Water/moisture can collect there, making a lovely environment for nasty molds.

And yes, the engine may need some servicing if it hasn't been used for awhile, especially if it wasn't winterized or properly prepared to be put away. If the carb wasn't drained before it was stored, or if the last use didn't include fuel stabilizer in the gas, the carb may need a cleaning. And I think it's a good idea (although not strictly necessary) to change the oil in the lower unit too. Otherwise, a lack of use in a modern outboard engine shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## emcentar

Minnewaska said:


> Owning your own boat is definitely a path to being able to rent a bareboat, if that's what you meant by charter. However, your experience will dictate what you can bareboat. Generally, you wouldn't be permitted to charter anything substantially larger than you are experienced handling. I don't know if I've seen a bareboat smaller than the mid-30s, although, that might work with good experience on a smaller keel boat. The bareboat fleets do seem to be favoring larger vessels (40+). They might be tough, if your experience is on a sub-30. Only way to know is to ask them.


I've been looking into this myself, and Horizon does have (monohull) sailboats as small as 33' for bareboat charter in the BVIs. If you wind up buying at the upper end of your length range you should have comparable experience.









Bareboat Fleet and Rates


Full Bareboat Fleet and Rates of charter yachts in the British Virgin Islands (BVI) with Horizon Yacht Charters - make your booking today




horizonyachtcharters.com


----------



## TakeFive

FWIW, I sailed a 14' Phantom dinghy for 10 years, then bought a 25 footer (Catalina 250, different model but similar size to yours). After I had sailed that for one season, I rented a 36 footer in the Chesapeake for a week, and a year later I rented a 38 footer in BVI. No problems from either charter company - they were happy to have a customer who owned a boat, even a smaller one. I suspect that they rent to much more marginal people than sailboat owners. A 25 footer will get you "in the club" pretty quickly.

In my opinions, a 25 footer is 100% adequate for charter experience. From a safety standpoint, the most important thing to learn is how to reduce sail area, and a smaller boat will force you to learn that right away. Plus, charters tend to be under-canvassed anyway for safety reasons.


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## danvon

That 25 might well be worth a look. I do agree with maybe going up just a bit in size - the Catalina 27 is a vastly better boat than the 25 IMO. A couple of things jump out. It has a wing keel, which is for shoal draft. Is depth an issue where you would be sailing If not you would likely get better performance from a fin keel. If that outboard is a 2-stroke it is probabliy unkillable. Might need a carb rebild but that is NBD and you need to know how to do it anyway. Also, make sure that the seller of any trailer you look at has a title in hand. Many don't and (at least in WA), clearing that so you can title it is was a huge pain in the butt.


----------



## lovebluewater

mstern said:


> Be alert: a tarp over a frame that allows air to circulate while still keeping water off the boat is key. If water can get in anywhere, it can be a problem. There's a sweet spot between the shrink wrap with no ventilation and the loose tarp that lets in quite a bit of rain. Be especially careful about the cockpit. Lots of people think that if they keep water off the cabin top and most of the deck, it's fine. But leaves and other debris will collect in the cockpit, clog the drains, and make a little lake. That can be a big problem. Check the integrity of the deck near any drains in the cockpit. Standing water will often find it's way under the drain fittings, getting into the core and causing rot and delamination. And the air circulation is crucial: if the boat is wrapped up too tight, there will be mold and mildew. Check the corners and deck, especially near the bulkheads. Water/moisture can collect there, making a lovely environment for nasty molds.
> 
> And yes, the engine may need some servicing if it hasn't been used for awhile, especially if it wasn't winterized or properly prepared to be put away. If the carb wasn't drained before it was stored, or if the last use didn't include fuel stabilizer in the gas, the carb may need a cleaning. And I think it's a good idea (although not strictly necessary) to change the oil in the lower unit too. Otherwise, a lack of use in a modern outboard engine shouldn't be a problem.





danvon said:


> That 25 might well be worth a look. I do agree with maybe going up just a bit in size - the Catalina 27 is a vastly better boat than the 25 IMO. A couple of things jump out. It has a wing keel, which is for shoal draft. Is depth an issue where you would be sailing If not you would likely get better performance from a fin keel. If that outboard is a 2-stroke it is probabliy unkillable. Might need a carb rebild but that is NBD and you need to know how to do it anyway. Also, make sure that the seller of any trailer you look at has a title in hand. Many don't and (at least in WA), clearing that so you can title it is was a huge pain in the butt.


I did go see it today... i thought it looked ok. But judging a boat on a trailer had it's own challenges too. I brought the hubby.. took some pictures. And noticed what I could. I didn't inspect it throughly.

No test of the engine, .. the hubby was convinced, as were some other sailors, that having been unused for so long, replacing would be likely..( $2k for 7-8hp) the owner, not so sure... only non ethanol gas used..helpful.

No power connected to see the electrical systems.. although they are quite simple on this small vessel. He said it was previously owned by an electrical engineer.. ..and maybe that was true given the tidy , OCD wires. But it still hasn't been used in a long time..

It was super nice to be able to see the bottom! And to my eyes it looked great. And YAY! The whole rutter was there! ( unlike the boat i had surveyed)

The hubby had righteous concerns about the trailer.. tired, barrings, some rust near the tongue at stress ponts.. tires were sunk in the mud.. but recently inflated by the owner.

The interior felt a bit roomier than I expected. But the side decks were sadly expectedly small. That would make me want something bigger for sure.

I would become a single handed sailor for sure.. such a tiny cockpit.

And yes, grossly overpriced. But we didn't talk money yet.


----------



## lovebluewater

I am all too happy to hear advice.. Sone sailors I've gotten to know at the yacht club I've quickly come to respect and I've been sharing my boat searches with them . 

But, I'm trying to follow what to think.. 

"Never buy a hunter!"
"A Pearson is like a Toyota and a Catalina is like a Chevy" 
"The only boat I would never buy is an Irwin"

And the most recent thing I've heard.. "the atomic engine aka atomic bomb."

It seems to me, much like RVs, there is comprises .. no one RV or boat likely has everything going for it. 

I was surprised to hear the negative remarks about the Catalina brand? Lots of on line support, and plenty of parts available. 

Keep in mind, my price point is low. And for a first boat what really matters anyway? What is most important? 

And.a little philosophy thrown in here too.. I'm trying to be patient...and I am.. but Like most people, I know that life is short! I get a big reminder of that every day I go to work.. im an ICU RN... I'll admit that the pandemic may have messed me up a little too. I'm so lucky to have my health, and the health of my whole family is good also. But I know tjat could and will change one day..perhaps in the blink of an eye. Knowing this frustrates my patience. 

Thoughts please!


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## SanderO

You seem to be doing the search with due diligence. Try to set a time limit on your search, Make a list of the first 2nd and third choices which will change by the time the search period ends. Then commit!


----------



## mstern

Oh fer crying out loud. You want to go sailing, not buy a boat for queen of England. No boat of any brand is perfect. Buy one that has no holes, a working engine and serviceable sails. Go sailing.


----------



## Dreadpiratkevin

mstern said:


> Oh fer crying out loud. You want to go sailing, not buy a boat for queen of England. No boat of any brand is perfect. Buy one that has no holes, a working engine and serviceable sails. Go sailing.


LOL. I'm inclined to agree- not necessarily in regard to the OP but just generally about all the 'first time boat buyer' questions.

Yes, boats are complicated and diligence is warranted but the vast majority of peoples needs just aren't that unique. What you want is pretty much what everyone else wants in a boat, and pretty much what most boat builders seek to provide. And in most cases the differences between boats you might actually buy are marginal and seem more important on paper then on the water. (Build quality being an exception)

Many years ago I did a job for a guy that had a very fancy shiny new RV in his driveway. I asked him how he liked it- he said he didn't know, never spent a night in it. He and his wife spent 20 years saving for the thing, and six months after he retired she died of cancer. My heart broke for the guy. That week I took my sailboat savings and bought the best boat I could afford and took my family sailing. We sailed that boat for 15 years, with a few upgrades. Still miss it sometimes, even though we've moved way up since then, lots of memories of my kids when they were little.

Every year spent shopping for a boat is one less year of your life spent sailing

Sorry for the ramble.

Carry on.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lovebluewater

mstern said:


> Oh fer crying out loud. You want to go sailing, not buy a boat for queen of England. No boat of any brand is perfect. Buy one that has no holes, a working engine and serviceable sails. Go sailing.


I am famous for overthinking. But to be fair, i ask for advice, and some scare the bejeezas out of me! Horror stories galore!


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## lovebluewater

Dreadpiratkevin said:


> LOL. I'm inclined to agree- not necessarily in regard to the OP but just generally about all the 'first time boat buyer' questions.
> 
> Yes, boats are complicated and diligence is warranted but the vast majority of peoples needs just aren't that unique. What you want is pretty much what everyone else wants in a boat, and pretty much what most boat builders seek to provide. And in most cases the differences between boats you might actually buy are marginal and seem more important on paper then on the water. (Build quality being an exception)
> 
> Many years ago I did a job for a guy that had a very fancy shiny new RV in his driveway. I asked him how he liked it- he said he didn't know, never spent a night in it. He and his wife spent 20 years saving for the thing, and six months after he retired she died of cancer. My heart broke for the guy. That week I took my sailboat savings and bought the best boat I could afford and took my family sailing. We sailed that boat for 15 years, with a few upgrades. Still miss it sometimes, even though we've moved way up since then, lots of memories of my kids when they were little.
> 
> Every year spent shopping for a boat is one less year of your life spent sailing
> 
> Sorry for the ramble.
> 
> Carry on.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you! This is exactly what Im talking about!


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## mstern

lovebluewater said:


> I am famous for overthinking. But to be fair, i ask for advice, and some scare the bejeezas out of me! Horror stories galore!


I was more reacting to some of the advice you were getting. It's enough to make a Navy Seal doubt himself. I think you are doing fantastic. Just know that so long as the boat floats, you're going to be fine. And you're not permanently attached to whatever you choose now.


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## danvon

mstern said:


> Just know that so long as the boat floats, you're going to be fine. And you're not permanently attached to whatever you choose now.


This is an excellent point. In fact, you are very likely to decide you want something different/bigger/smaller after you have done a bunch of sailing. As to your Catalina question, nothing at all wrong with them. They were built to a price point so are not luxurious, but they are great family boats & can sail very well.


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## Minnewaska

lovebluewater said:


> No test of the engine, .. the hubby was convinced, as were some other sailors, that having been unused for so long, replacing would be likely


I have no way of assessing, from afar. If stored dry, they are often recoverable. If left to corrode, not so much.



lovebluewater said:


> rutter


Rudder. 



lovebluewater said:


> the atomic engine aka atomic bomb


Those engines have a following. Parts are available and auto engine guys often like them, because they run on gas and it's systems are, therefore, similar. The bomb reference is because gasoline fumes can be dangerous. They need to be well ventilated.



lovebluewater said:


> I was surprised to hear the negative remarks about the Catalina brand? Lots of on line support, and plenty of parts available.
> 
> Keep in mind, my price point is low.


Catalina is very popular, made to a price point, easy to resell and a perfectly suitable boat for your current mission.


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## mstern

Speaking as a Catalina owner myself, I give the brand two big thumbs up. If you are looking for a reasonably priced, well-supported (manufacturer and owner's groups), coastal cruiser, you won't do much better.


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## Jeff_H

As others have noted all boats are a compromise. Catalina, especially the early Catalinas were heavily compromised to keep costs down. In their day, the early Catalinas were not very highly regarded and their build quality looked down upon as being shoddy compared to similar price point boats. Over time, the build quality of Catalinas and pretty much all of the price point boats improved, with the possible exception of Hunter which actually had better build quality than most of its peers when Hunter started out and has had some dubious periods and models. 

At various times I have assisted people who were buying used value oriented boats and so i got to go aboard a bunch of similar size, age, and price point boats from different manufacturers. As a general rule, Catalinas did not stand up as well as the other manufacturers.

But all that said. If you are looking for a first boat for lake sailing, and you found one in good shape, some models and years Catalinas would be good option. The problem is that people tend to over generalize about manufacturers, assuming all of their models are good or bad. I don't think that level of consistency is true for any manufacturer.

Atomic 4s are the same way. People tend to generalize when the reality isn't all that simple. Most who fear and condemn Atomic 4s never owned one or operated a boat that had one.. I have owned two boats with Atomic 4s, operated a bunch more, and owned one with a 1939 Universal Blue Jacket which was 2 cylinder engine that was literally half of an Atomic at 4. I basically like the engine but I am a halfway decent mechanic. 

Atomic 4s are easy to work on and the parts are affordable. Most have been switched to electronic ignitions which makes them more reliable.

But gas engines need more maintenance, and care in use. Gasoline does not remain stable for as long as diesel fuel.

In terms of safety, there are specific safety measures that need to be followed. The blower needs to be run 5 or more minutes before starting the engine, the bilge and engine compartment sniffed for Gasoline fumes before starting the engine. Only explosion resistant electrical devices can be installed in the engine compartment, and arguably in the cabin.

In my sailing career (60 years) I have witnessed or read about a couple dozen sailboat fires and explosions. Not one of those explosions were from a gas engine, and most were diesel engines with propane stoves, where the propane was the source of the explosion.(Oddly, the same is not true in powerboats where gasoline is more frequently the cause).

The issue is that as a new sailor you are more likely to get into a situation where you will need to use the engine but have not anticipated that long enough in advance to do a proper safe start procedure.

Jeff


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## lovebluewater

mstern said:


> Speaking as a Catalina owner myself, I give the brand two big thumbs up. If you are looking for a reasonably priced, well-supported (manufacturer and owner's groups), coastal cruiser, you won't do much better.


Thank you! That is exactly what I was thinking


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## lovebluewater

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This is the latest boat I have viewed..

I'm going smaller. Getting a tiller , and an outboard...which is not my dream boat for sure.. But, I'm not looking for my dream boat anymore .... just a boat, a learning lab to become proficient at sailing. ..

It's on a trailer. The advantages.. lower price , I can see the bottom of the boat and keel.. i can do my own bottom paint in my yard.. no need for a haul out.. and i don't think I will even need a survey. The systems are simple.

Disadvantages.. I would really like to see her in the water. I would really like to sail her before buying, a sea trial. I no nothing about raising a mast.. but the owner said he would teach me.. plus there is always YouTube...

Another disadvantage is ...it is small... 4 passengers total is likely the limit. But...again...it's not my dream boat.

How difficult is it to raise a mast?

How sturdy is the rigging on a boat like this? Can someone explain this part to me? I'm guessing that once the mast is up, the strategic tightening of shrouds, back stay, & forestay takes place? It has a roller furler too.

It has been in the owner's yard since approximately 2014. My hubby says that is problematic to the trailer and the outboard engine.? The trailer needing attention to the tires, etc. It does have a tongue extention, and I think that would be necessary with the fixed keel.. it is a wing keel.

The owner said the companion way threshold has a leak when uncovered ( minor expense) . And a gasket was compromised at the aft cockpit chart light, which he said he repaired.

The wood looked solid everywhere inside..

The batteries are expired.

Cushions are stained and expectedly aged.

There isn't much in terms of electrical systems, but I haven't tested what is there yet.

The location of this boat is great.. only 35 miles away.

$9800 seems too high for this boat. I know there is a way to see how much comparable boats have actually sold for ? Anyone know how to find out this info?

My plan, if I were to get it.. would be to raise the mast, and keep it in the water except for hurricanes, and when needing a bottom job.

Ok group...help a gal out! Am I missing anything to consider? How much is a fair price? Loaded question I know! Ok go!


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## TakeFive

lovebluewater said:


> How difficult is it to raise a mast?
> 
> How sturdy is the rigging on a boat like this? Can someone explain this part to me? I'm guessing that once the mast is up, the strategic tightening of shrouds, back stay, & forestay takes place? It has a roller furler too.


For questions like this, you really should go to the Catalina 25 International Association website. They have hundreds of owners who post how to do these things. Regarding mast raising, there are several ways to do so safely. The key issues are to get mechanical advantage (often by using the boom as a gin pole to raise the needed tackle to an appropriate angle) and keep the mast in column as it goes up (search their message board for A-frame apparatus).





__





Association Forum






www.catalina-capri-25s.org


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## capttb

Don't even waste time looking at a boat that looks like the "before" pictures in an ad for cosmetic dentistry, look for one someone else has already finished. Always better to get the BEST boat for a budget, not the biggest. Here's a couple examples near you less than $6000.
Capri 14.2
O'day 23
And here's an almost pristine WWP been sitting in the original owners garage, could probably sail it a few years and sell without losing money. In California, but a vacation trip to fisherman's wharf to pick up would still be a better deal than something starting to sink into the ground.
WWP15


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## mstern

I'd jump on that Oday 23. 6 grand for a well-maintained 23 with a trailer and newer outboard sounds about right in this market. I had one of those for 19 years, and she served me well. Not a boat I'd pick if racing were in my plans, but a great, forgiving learning platform for sure.


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## Jeff_H

I second that. I have taught two separate people how to sail on O'Day 22s and 23s which they bought as their first boats and which served them well.
Jeff


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## PhilCarlson

lovebluewater said:


> $9800 seems too high for this boat. I know there is a way to see how much comparable boats have actually sold for ? Anyone know how to find out this info?


$9,800 looks like a ready to drive/sail away price. Deduct the costs for:
-New motor (if the owner wants to keep the old one, fine)
-Repack the wheel bearings and replace the tires (including your labor)
-Replace the trailer electrical (those are always wrecked)
-Replace the batteries.
-A boat buck for misc repairs for you've overlooked and minor things that have been disclosed. 
My fuzzy math says your offer is $5k but you'd go up if the owner could resolve some of the above. (demonstrate reliable function of the motor, do the trailer repairs, etc...)

Comparable sales are problematic. It doesn't work like cars because so many sales are un or under reported. Car comps use reported sales and depreciation. Dealerships reliably report sales data. A boat like this you could pay the seller $10k and say you paid $1k when you register it. Depreciation doesn't really work with sailboats because of the configuration, maintenance, upkeep and condition vary so much, even with the same model of any given boat.

Buy a boat already! This is post 237 on your thread! you owe us some sea stories!


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## lovebluewater

capttb said:


> Don't even waste time looking at a boat that looks like the "before" pictures in an ad for cosmetic dentistry, look for one someone else has already finished. Always better to get the BEST boat for a budget, not the biggest. Here's a couple examples near you less than $6000.
> Capri 14.2
> O'day 23
> And here's an almost pristine WWP been sitting in the original owners garage, could probably sail it a few years and sell without losing money. In California, but a vacation trip to fisherman's wharf to pick up would still be a better deal than something starting to sink into the ground.
> WWP15


Thank you! I hadn't seen these. As for California-- can't pull that off at this time. I wish I could!


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## lovebluewater

PhilCarlson said:


> $9,800 looks like a ready to drive/sail away price. Deduct the costs for:
> -New motor (if the owner wants to keep the old one, fine)
> -Repack the wheel bearings and replace the tires (including your labor)
> -Replace the trailer electrical (those are always wrecked)
> -Replace the batteries.
> -A boat buck for misc repairs for you've overlooked and minor things that have been disclosed.
> My fuzzy math says your offer is $5k but you'd go up if the owner could resolve some of the above. (demonstrate reliable function of the motor, do the trailer repairs, etc...)
> 
> Comparable sales are problematic. It doesn't work like cars because so many sales are un or under reported. Car comps use reported sales and depreciation. Dealerships reliably report sales data. A boat like this you could pay the seller $10k and say you paid $1k when you register it. Depreciation doesn't really work with sailboats because of the configuration, maintenance, upkeep and condition vary so much, even with the same model of any given boat.
> 
> Buy a boat already! This is post 237 on your thread! you owe us some sea stories!


I'm right there with you! Too much overthinking not enough sailing! ?


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## SHNOOL

I totally disagree with people recommending a trailerable over the 30ft Catalina.
I was a trailer sailor for roughly 15 years. We could not leave boats in all year long (water turned solid where I lived). We had no travel lifts, no cranes, etc... So all launching was 100% up to us.
A Catalina 25 (if that is what it is, I do not click links to facebook), is a great boat, however it is NOT an "easy" trailerable. Its a maxi-trailerable actually. Its a heavy, hard to launch boat that frankly leaves you with new things to learn like trailering, backing, launching, mast raising... all a challenge beyond sailing.

To me a boat in the water in a marina with hopefully full service access is an "easy" start. I also would say 26-32 foot range if you have ANY kind of crew to help (mostly for departure and arrival at the dock), will be quite sufficient in size for what you are looking to do. 

I have been sailing my whole life, but I don't trivialize the amount of learning involved with new sailors. to me a larger boat is infinitely more forgiving and generally easier to learn on. That being said, smaller boats provide instant feedback on sailing well versus larger boats. This is all generalizations and of course there are exceptions, but for a particular class of boat, ie Catalina 22 versus Catalina 30, the Catalina 22 will be less forgiving, in a blow especially than say the 30 will be. You likely see this having learned on the 30 foot range boat, and sailed on the 40ft range boat. Taken to extreme, a centerboard boat will be the least forgiving (leaving you capsized and wet if you get it completely wrong). I don't dismiss learning "the hard way" but I personally think it is a barrier to getting started in sailing. That frequently puts people off and prevents them from wanting to sail.

I am with others though, in that sometimes you fish or cut bait, probably time to start fishing.


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## lovebluewater

SHNOOL said:


> I totally disagree with people recommending a trailerable over the 30ft Catalina.
> I was a trailer sailor for roughly 15 years. We could not leave boats in all year long (water turned solid where I lived). We had no travel lifts, no cranes, etc... So all launching was 100% up to us.
> A Catalina 25 (if that is what it is, I do not click links to facebook), is a great boat, however it is NOT an "easy" trailerable. Its a maxi-trailerable actually. Its a heavy, hard to launch boat that frankly leaves you with new things to learn like trailering, backing, launching, mast raising... all a challenge beyond sailing.
> 
> To me a boat in the water in a marina with hopefully full service access is an "easy" start. I also would say 26-32 foot range if you have ANY kind of crew to help (mostly for departure and arrival at the dock), will be quite sufficient in size for what you are looking to do.
> 
> I have been sailing my whole life, but I don't trivialize the amount of learning involved with new sailors. to me a larger boat is infinitely more forgiving and generally easier to learn on. That being said, smaller boats provide instant feedback on sailing well versus larger boats. This is all generalizations and of course there are exceptions, but for a particular class of boat, ie Catalina 22 versus Catalina 30, the Catalina 22 will be less forgiving, in a blow especially than say the 30 will be. You likely see this having learned on the 30 foot range boat, and sailed on the 40ft range boat. Taken to extreme, a centerboard boat will be the least forgiving (leaving you capsized and wet if you get it completely wrong). I don't dismiss learning "the hard way" but I personally think it is a barrier to getting started in sailing. That frequently puts people off and prevents them from wanting to sail.
> 
> I am with others though, in that sometimes you fish or cut bait, probably time to start fishing.


I keep coming back to wanting a 30ft boat too. I think i would feel safer, and just sail by taking it slow. But this means I'll need to wait and beef up the budget, or get a boat that has a lot of projects just to get started. Waiting is more logical.. and perhaps with the pandemic boat purchasers may start selling off the boats they bought. Maybe the supply/demand will shift back to a buyers market. And Hurricane season is now started, so....idk, i hate to get a boat just in time to have to worry about it.


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## Jeff_H

SHNOOL said:


> I have been sailing my whole life, but I don't trivialize the amount of learning involved with new sailors. to me a larger boat is infinitely more forgiving and generally easier to learn on. That being said, smaller boats provide instant feedback on sailing well versus larger boats. This is all generalizations and of course there are exceptions, but for a particular class of boat, ie Catalina 22 versus Catalina 30, the Catalina 22 will be less forgiving, in a blow especially than say the 30 will be. You likely see this having learned on the 30 foot range boat, and sailed on the 40ft range boat. Taken to extreme, a centerboard boat will be the least forgiving (leaving you capsized and wet if you get it completely wrong). I don't dismiss learning "the hard way" but I personally think it is a barrier to getting started in sailing. That frequently puts people off and prevents them from wanting to sail.


While I generally concur with SHNOOL, and always respect his opinion, I find myself respectfully disagreeing with some of this. I have taught a very large number of people to sail in my life. There are people who can learn on any size boat, but for most people, the learning curve greatly steepens as a boat becomes bigger and less responsive. For athletic people with supervision, dinghies will teach boat handling and sail trim faster than anything else. But for most adults (especially when learning unsupervised) there is a sweet spot in terms of the ideal size of boat to learn on. Too big and there isn't enough feed back and the forces can be large enough to seriously injure somebody. Too small and the student is constantly concerned about getting into trouble. When you look at the size boat developed for sailing schools by sailing schools, almost universally these boats are in the 22 foot to lighter weight end of the 27 foot range. Once you get over that range, the boat becomes more dangerous in pretty much all conditions, for a minor penalty in heavy air where something like a Catalina 30 might have a very slight safety advantage in terms of seaworthiness, while having a greater likelihood of injuring someone in those same conditions.

I would suggest that the Catalina 25, ( because of being a overweight and of a mediocre design) would probably fall at the upper end of that range as a boat to learn on, but should be seen as one round trip to the driveway and marina per season trailerable at best.

Jeff


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## PhilCarlson

Waiting gets you:
-Bigger budget, bigger/better boat.
-Past the COVID seller's market (probably).
-More experience on other boats as you learn (which will change your purchasing criteria)

Buying now gets you:
-A boat to sail whenever you want.
-A boat to work on whenever it wants.
-Slip fees and insurance bills. 
-Sea stories to share with this august group.


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## SHNOOL

I should have stated the Catalina 25 left in a slip fills the requirement as good or better than the Catalina 30 for reasons Jeff states, but my focus was going smaller, ie: much smaller... the smaller boats will teach you better, but also do so with more punishment. My concern was adding to this trailering, and launching, and raising a mast - those are really "un-fun" tasks that add risk.

I see Jeff's point, and concede to his more experience. I have also witnessed many folk attempt to learn to sail on 17-22 footers and like many newbies think, go out in 15-20 knot winds and get their heads handed to them (accidental jibes top the list). The OP does not seem like that category because she's taking the organized classes route and knows sea states and winds I'd wager, this is not a raw recruit.


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## lovebluewater

Jeff_H said:


> While I generally concur with SHNOOL, and always respect his opinion, I find myself respectfully disagreeing with some of this. I have taught a very large number of people to sail in my life. There are people who can learn on any size boat, but for most people, the learning curve greatly steepens as a boat becomes bigger and less responsive. For athletic people with supervision, dinghies will teach boat handling and sail trim faster than anything else. But for most adults (especially when learning unsupervised) there is a sweet spot in terms of the ideal size of boat to learn on. Too big and there isn't enough feed back and the forces can be large enough to seriously injure somebody. Too small and the student is constantly concerned about getting into trouble. When you look at the size boat developed for sailing schools by sailing schools, almost universally these boats are in the 22 foot to lighter weight end of the 27 foot range. Once you get over that range, the boat becomes more dangerous in pretty much all conditions, for a minor penalty in heavy air where something like a Catalina 30 might have a very slight safety advantage in terms of seaworthiness, while having a greater likelihood of injuring someone in those same conditions.
> 
> I would suggest that the Catalina 25, ( because of being a overweight and of a mediocre design) would probably fall at the upper end of that range as a boat to learn on, but should be seen as one round trip to the driveway and marina per season trailerable at best.
> 
> Jeff


If I go the trailerable route, the trailer would almost never be used... once a year for hurricane avoidance.. mid August to November. At which time i would clean and repaint the bottom. The disadvantage is, IDK how my neighbors would feel about the boat in our side yard? Our neighborhood has an HOA, but it is way laid back.

I also have a buddy who just bought a trailerable 26 ft McGregor. The swing keel. His plan is to put it in the water as I wrote above. And he says I can sail it anytime I want.. and that us a good offer for sure. However, it currently resides in his side yard for about 3 weeks now, and he hasn't touched it since he bought it. We aren't expecting the outboard engine to work ... the couple he bought it from said they bought it 2 years ago, and used it exactly 2 times. It ruined them for sailing... raising the mast etc ...too much work...the lady said she had vertigo and the boat was a mistake. So, my buddy scooped it up for $2500.. has a trailer, decent sails, out board... a few other perks.

IDK anything about a McGregor. What do y'all think?


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## Jeff_H

As a broad generality, McGregors tend to be cheaply built and don't seem to hold their value very well around here. I helped a friend put one back together and thought it tended to be something of a money pit as things were always breaking.

McGregors come in two flavors: Trailerable sailboats and trailerable powerboats with a sailing rig. The trailerable sailboats sail pretty well for what they are. The trailerable powerboats with a sailing rig are not particularly good power boats and are not particularly good sailboats, but their owners seem to like them. The sailboats might work acceptably well for what you want it for. The power-sailors would be a really poor choice.

Jeff


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## emcentar

I did crack up at the 'Pearsons are like Toyotas' comment which I'd never heard before but really does fit my own completely-ordinary-looking-but-reliable-as-anything boat. If you can find a well-maintained P28-II you should definitely snap it up, it really does fit your criteria well.


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## Minnewaska

lovebluewater said:


> perhaps with the pandemic boat purchasers may start selling off the boats they bought.


Many had suggested this would have already begun and it hasn't. I wouldn't bet on it.

I also wanted to weigh in on trailering. My family had trailerable boats, when I was very young. Only one season that I can recall, did my parents decided to launch and retrieve and that's all it took to never do that again. Way too much work to justify the day use. However, being able to bring the boat home for commissioning work was a real advantage..... for them! It meant I got to learn how to bottom paint, from the age of 10!! Turned me off from boating, when I first got out of the house in my 20s. The boat would come to their driveway for a few weeks at the beginning and end of the season, but would be stored at a yard, on her trailer all winter. We ultimately graduated out of that program, but it was very flexible to be able to trailer twice per year.


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## Dreadpiratkevin

Trailer sailing is a very different sport but it has advantages. Our very first boat was an Oday 22. Fixed keel. That thing took at least 2 people to raise the mast (while trying to watch 3 small children at a busy boat ramp) and a very steep ramp to launch and retrieve. Still we had fun with it. But when the kids were little it was too much, so our enthusiasm waned and it got used less and less and we sold it. 

When the kids got bigger we bought a Siren 17. Totally different experience. I could rig and launch it solo in a few minutes, it was easy to tow and a great boat to learn on. We sailed her for 15 years all over the place We spent weeks camping out of it exploring the 1000 Islands in NY. Everything was simple on that boat, something I didn’t appreciate until we moved ‘up’ to more complex boats. I really learned to sail and to love sailing on that boat. 

The big advantage of it was that early in life when our income was unstable and life chaotic all I needed was a parking spot and a tarp to keep my boat and it wasn’t a drain on the budget and unexpected moves just meant a new set of lakes to explore. 

Trailer boats can work if it’s the right boat. Yes many become lawn ornaments for sure, but better a lawn ornament then a regret eating up dock fees and insurance every month. Not everyone who buys a boat finds they love sailing enough to do the work, and no matter how you slice it sailing is a lot of work. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mstern

While I almost always agree with Jeff (especially on matters of naval architecture), I don't share his view on the Catalina 25. Not the best sailer in the bunch for sure, but I found the 25 and the 22 to be very forgiving for beginners, easy to handle -- sail and power -- and comfortable for their size. The pop-top cabin is especially practical if you intend to overnight or cruise at all. Standing headroom is a blessing, which you aren't going to find on a boat that size unless you are less than 5'8". Granted, they were built to a price point, which means that you are going to have to watch out for core intrusion on the decks, leaky portholes, inadequate electrical, etc. But you can find well-cared for boats that will serve you well -- witness that ad for the Oday 23 -- at a good price. And there were about a bazillion of those things made, so there should be a few to look at. I'd add the Oday 25 to your list too. As Shnool and Jeff have pointed out, the "trailerable" part of the equation is secondary.


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## lovebluewater

I'M BACK!!

searching and seaching -- I should be nicknamed Goldilocks.

Here is my latest discovery









Catalina 27 - boats - by owner - marine sale


1988 Catalina 27. Brand new jib. The boat has autopilot and the engine runs good. The boat needs a little work.



gulfport.craigslist.org





I'm not finished looking at it. I viewed it topside yesterday, and had a long conversation with the owner.

He's owned it 3 years.-- he says ..It had a new bottom job done on it just before it was purchased by him. The bad news is it hasn't had ANY bottom attention since then. It is located in Biloxi, Mississippi---SALT WATER! I can see some barnicales near the water line. Yikes! very bad news.

BUT!! the price point is low. and it has a brand new Jib, and a brand new autopilot. The steering is currently broken-- but he has someone to fix it this Saturday.

I'm considering having a VERY trustworthy diver clean and examine the bottom of the boat. If he tells me to run, I run! If he isn't sure-- well, 2 options-- RUN or haul out.

Meanwhile, I'm asking various boatyards about bottom paint/ and repair. 
And , of coarse the answers are vague in terms of cost because they can't quote until they see it out of the water.

Blisters-- that is my question. I know this subject is spoken a lot. " Boats don't sink from osmosis" " Run from a boat with blisters" " Repair and monitor the blisters, but they'll be back-- because it is a secondary bonding repair"

Plus, in the short time I've spoken to boatyard contractors, I already don't trust them. And I am a REALLY trusting person!! Like pathologically trusting!!

So my next question, Like other things that have needed repairing or building in my life, we just did it ourselves. There is a nearby boat yard that will haul out for about $400, give 5 days no charge in the boat yard, and then charge $20/day. My question is, how do you all feel about this young 55year old tackling my own bottom job? It's hot as hades right now, but that's what early mornings are for, and cold water. I know it is labor intensive, and I'll ache for weeks, but I think I can do it. If you think I can, tell me what is the best paint I can buy? I'll turn to youtube for how to do it, but if you can direct me to further resources , let me know.

And Lastly, has anyone done their own bottom? I have 10 days off at the end of July that would be perfect ( perfectly HOT!) to complete this kind of work. Plus the hubby is off too. The reason I am considering doing this on our own is " If you want something done right, then do it yourself" is a philosphy that has turned out always true for us.

Thoughts please!!


----------



## SanderO

lovebluewater said:


> I'M BACK!!
> And Lastly, has anyone done their own bottom? I have 10 days off at the end of July that would be perfect ( perfectly HOT!) to complete this kind of work. Plus the hubby is off too. The reason I am considering doing this on our own is " If you want something done right, then do it yourself" is a philosphy that has turned out always true for us.
> 
> Thoughts please!!


My boat is 36 yrs oid and I am the original owner. I used to prep and paint the bottom each Spring. It's an unpleasant job. (prep... painting is easy)

About 15 years ago I decided to remove 20 years of bottom paint. I hired a company to soda blast the paint off. I had fairing to do on the keel and a few places. Then I painted on a barrier coat. Painting is easy. Then I did the bottom paint... painting is easy.

If you have a lot of "repairs" and fairing... it takes time... and is messy... but not difficult. It's like spackling a boat.

I have the yard prep and paint for the last 5 years if I can't hire someone to do it.


----------



## JimsCAL

I'm a couple of decades older than you and have never paid anyone to sand and paint my boat's bottom. Not fun but not very difficult.

As to that Cat 27, the ad has almost zero info. Big question for me would be the engine. Inboard or outboard? And what is its condition as replacing an engine is expensive.


----------



## PhilCarlson

I think hiring a diver would be money well spent. I'd ask the owner to have the hull cleaned first (his dime), then your diver can get a better look and maybe pictures for you. Then you will have a better idea what you're up against.


----------



## danvon

I agree that you need a lot more information about that boat. Inboard or outboard? if inboard, gas or diesel? A boat where a dead inboard is left in place and an outboard hang on the transom would be a red flag for me. Having said that I kinda like the OB version of those boats for simplicity and the storage space it frees up under the cockpit.

Sounds like this boat has wheel steering? You'll want to make sure that the repairs are done right and there is nothing else wrong with it. Honestly a tiller makes more sense on that boat anyway.

It looks from the one picture like the boat may be a tall rig with the bowsprit. That's great for light air - make sure the bowsprit is sound. They were generally wood.

Any evidence of water intrusion into the bulkheads (common place for water to get in on those boats) or soft spots on the deck? Age of standing rigging? I don't know if the 1988s still had the cast aluminum spreader mounts or not - if so, were they replaced with the newer stainless ones? (those last two items are not deal breakers but would add some $$ and required pulling the mast to address). How are the keel bolts? You'll want to carefully look for any evidence of a Catalina smile. 

You can find out a lot of this without paying for the haulout & survey if you can get into/into the boat.


----------



## Minnewaska

Barnacles themselves wouldn’t phase me. The fact that it wasn’t well maintained may apply to other things too. That’s what I’d focus on.


----------



## contrarian

If you come over to Panama City I can give you some hands on training in how to prep and paint a boat bottom


----------



## mstern

Agree with Minne. Barnacles are not a big deal. They are fairly easy to remove once out of the water. For a Catalina 27, it's probably a day's work for two people with random orbital sanders. But a lot of barnacles indicates a possible lack of maintenance. Here in the northeast, a properly applied multi-season bottom paint will keep most of the barnacles off for three or four seasons. I imagine that a boat kept in warmer waters full time won't last that long, but I'm guessing that a hull covered in barnacles hasn't been attended to for maybe a couple of years. Lack of maintenance on the bottom is likely indicative of a lack of maintenance elsewhere. That means do the TP test on the shrouds, check carefully for leaks into the cabin, and inspect the bilge as much as possible (keel bolts, bilge pump, etc.) If no one has mentioned it yet, I found this book to be super helpful:





__





Amazon.com






www.amazon.com





I love the Catalina 27. I look at it as about the smallest real cruiser out there that is affordable. But keep in mind it was built to a price point, and the boat you are looking at is over 30 years old. If it hasn't been well-maintained, "needs some work" really means "needs a lot of work".

A word about the engine: the ad doesn't specify anything more than the engine runs. That's not much to go on. The boats were originally designed to be powered by an outboard, but during the long production run, they started offering the boat with an inboard. First, the gas-powered A4, then various sizes and models of diesel. If the boat is an '88, then it's likely to have a diesel if it's an inboard model. IMHO, that's a good thing. I'd much rather have a diesel than the A4, but that's a personal preference thing. There are lots of people who have gas engines on their boats, and they prefer it that way. If you follow the safety rules (venting the bilges, running the fans before starting, etc.), they are perfectly safe. And because they are familiar to people who like to work on their cars, many will do their own maintenance. But the A4 has it's downsides: you can get parts, but these engines are all OLD at this point. If this boat has an A4 and it hasn't been rebuilt yet, it needs to be. And while I think that an inboard gas engine is fine for getting in and out of the marina and some light work, they are intrinsically not well-suited for the marine environment. If the distributor or the electrical system gets wet (and, hey -- it's a boat), that's a big problem. And even though gas fires are rare, it is still a bit of pain to take the care necessary to keep them that way. Diesel is much easier: the engines are more robust, more simple, easier to fix, and the fuel won't catch fire if you put a match to it.

My ranking of preference for the engine on a C27: diesel, then outboard, then A4. YMMV. Just one other thing to note: because they were designed to take an outboard, there isn't much room around the inboard. This makes the transmission and stuffing box difficult to service. Certainly not a deal breaker IMHO, but something to keep in mind while evaluating this boat. For example, if the owner has never serviced the stuffing box, then you may be looking at a fairly big job to do so.

Hope I haven't dampened your enthusiasm for the C27. As I said, I think it's a great boat for a novice. I hope this is a good one.


----------



## JimsCAL

Ask the current owner what is meant by "new bottom job" 3 years ago. Could mean stripping the old bottom off, barrier coat, and then bottom paint. Or just a light sand a coat of bottom paint. That the current owner hasn't pulled the boat for bottom work in the 3 years he owned it doesn't bother me or necessarily mean he neglected other maintenance. After all it had a "new bottom" when he bought the boat. You've talked to the current owner so ask what he has fixed in the last 3 years and how much he used the boat.

Not sure the cost of a diver is going to be worth it. May be close to the cost of short haul which will tell you much more.


----------



## SanderO

A few barnacles on a boat that has been in the water for a few years is not unexpected. Barnacles are easy to remove with muriatic acid or barnacle buster.

Well maintained diesels will last decades or 1000's of hrs. Mine Volvo Penta is 36 yrs old and has almost 3700 hrs.


----------



## deniseO30

Well I have nothing to add with all the men splaining it to you. All good and great advice however isn't lake Pontchartrain extremely shallow? (I actually don't know is why I'm asking) forget the husband let him watch paint dry in the house or in the baby's room after he remodels it and becomes a house Dad! Join awomen's sailing group and don't look back! I single handed my boat for almost 10 years it was an Oday 30. Most people would have you believe it's sailing is a mystery but it really isn't the only mystery is learning how mechanical advantage can help you rather than work against you with the various lines, halyards blocks winches, etc. 

Catalina 30s are like Chevys, they're everywhere I've actually been thinking about a Catalina 36 if I return to sailing. All catalinas have the "smile" it can be troubling it can be fixed. 

Welcome aboard!


----------



## contrarian

SanderO said:


> Well maintained diesels will last decades or 1000's of hrs. Mine Volvo Penta is 36 yrs old and has almost 3700 hrs.


Bout to getter broke in there are ya ???


----------



## SanderO

Volvo parts are absurdly expensive.
I've bought my share of them.


----------



## danvon

contrarian said:


> If you come over to Panama City I can give you some hands on training in how to prep and paint a boat bottom


Is this the Tom Sawyer guide to sailboat maintenance?


----------



## lovebluewater

SanderO said:


> A few barnacles on a boat that has been in the water for a few years is not unexpected. Barnacles are easy to remove with muriatic acid or barnacle buster.
> 
> Well maintained diesels will last decades or 1000's of hrs. Mine Volvo Penta is 36 yrs old and has almost 3700 hrs.





contrarian said:


> If you come over to Panama City I can give you some hands on training in how to prep and paint a boat bottom


Hmmmm... tempting!


contrarian said:


> If you come over to Panama City I can give you some hands on training in how to prep and paint a boat bottom


Tempting!! If only that pesky job wasn't in the way!


----------



## lovebluewater

Well, I'm going to pass on the Catalina 27. The steering wasn't working.. and the bilge was filled with oil. I don't mean oily water, OIL! He claimed that there was some leaky gasket that had since been fixed? It ran easily, started right up, and I couldn't see any further oil leaking. I'm not a mechanic, and I started to add up steering repair( which i watched about a dozen videos on steering repairs, which looks like a beast) , engine survey, bottom job.... and the guy changing his story as to when the last time sailed... 1st he said about a month ago...but then it he said anout a year ago... 

You get the picture... I'll pass.


----------



## contrarian

lovebluewater said:


> Tempting!! If only that pesky job wasn't in the way!


That's the thing about jobs..... they're hard to live with but you can't eat without em.


----------



## lovebluewater

Now , next.......









1987 31’ Hunter Sailboat - boats - by owner - marine sale


1987 31’ Hunter Sailboat New Mainsail New Bottom Paint 2 New 24 Volt Batteries New Garmin Chart Plotter/Depth Finder/Transducer New Fuel Gauge New 110 Volt Connector New Jabsco Head New Running...



neworleans.craigslist.org





So, i went to see this one. 1st... yes I know it is priced to high... But I was curious to see what a higher budget would bring..

This one made a outstanding impression!

Solid deck, excellent engine , bottom job 2 months ago...( I talked to the boat yard, they said no blisters, 2 coats primer, 2 coats bottom paint...boat yard guy said he would reccomend cutlass bearing be replaced,.and maybe prop.. on next haulout, but not in awful shape)

These things are the owner said he had mechanic do recently ...

Throttle cable, fuel feeder pump, freshwater through hull, 2 24 amp batteries all new. Drained and replaced the diesel, and all the routine maintenance like oil change, impeller, and one of the belts I think..

Engine ran beautifully!

Interior was beautiful! And a luxury of cold AC.

New main sail.. older genoa. 
New lines.

And you can see the rest in the description.

It did have some dock rash.. but it was so sunny the day I viewed it, it didn't seem terrible to me. After all, Im guaranteed to add to the dock rash too.

The high price tag? Well, owner said he would negotiate. He'd only owned it for a year, and with now his job was returning back to a lot of travel. Plus , being gone during hurricane season with a boat to tend to, wasn't something he was looking forward to.

I bring my sailor buddy to see it on a second viewing. I really respect this guy. He spent a lot of time looking over the boat like a surveyor would.

His opinion was I not get this boat! I was devastated.

He had concerns about the dock rash... in different lighting ( a more cloudy day) you could see a number of repairs. My buddy commented that he'd be never seen paint flake off the hull when rubbing hands across it. And at the waterline, he thought it looked like no gellcoat, and even some Fiberglass exposed?

This is where I need some help. . I was thinking this was a cosmetic problem. For a first boat, cosmetics are not a priority for me.

I know hull paint jobs are crazy expensive! And definitely labor intensive. (And me with that inconvenient job! The nerve!)

So my question is...how serious is this problemod dock rash, lack of gelcoat, small area(s?) Or Fiberglass showing on the hull?

I asked my buddy...so what if the owner were to reduce the price tag quite a bit? Would that make it worth it? The boat has so much going for it? What if by some miracle.he would let it go for $15k?

My buddy said, he wouldn't recommend it. He seemed to think there will be better out there for me. And, this is the best I've seen so far.

I am constantly looking at the ads, and I'm shocked at my buddy's recommendation. Again, I really respect this man's opion. So, I'm struggling here a bit.


----------



## lovebluewater

deniseO30 said:


> Well I have nothing to add with all the men splaining it to you. All good and great advice however isn't lake Pontchartrain extremely shallow? (I actually don't know is why I'm asking) forget the husband let him watch paint dry in the house or in the baby's room after he remodels it and becomes a house Dad! Join awomen's sailing group and don't look back! I single handed my boat for almost 10 years it was an Oday 30. Most people would have you believe it's sailing is a mystery but it really isn't the only mystery is learning how mechanical advantage can help you rather than work against you with the various lines, halyards blocks winches, etc.
> 
> Catalina 30s are like Chevys, they're everywhere I've actually been thinking about a Catalina 36 if I return to sailing. All catalinas have the "smile" it can be troubling it can be fixed.
> 
> Welcome aboard!


 I definitely need to join a women's sailing group.. In the meantime I did do the next best thing .. i joined the women who sail Facebook group. They are inspiring.


----------



## contrarian

Quick look on local Craigslist this popped up. 
1990 Year Hunter Hunter 30 - boats - by owner - marine sale
Might call and try and get a feel for what this one sounds like. You just never know by ads. The absolute best way to buy a boat is from someone that you know from either club racing or at a club where you hang out. A lot of the time these kinds of boats never make it to the open market. Someone just says something like " yeah I heard Bill was going to sell his boat" and word gets around if they have a friend who is in the market for a good boat and they know how well Bill took care of his boat. Maybe you know Bill and one day you get a call from Bill and he offers you his boat for a very reasonable price so that he can purchase that bigger boat that he's always wanted.
Hang in there girl.... It's gonna happen! Don't know how, just know that it will.


----------



## mstern

lovebluewater said:


> Now , next.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1987 31’ Hunter Sailboat - boats - by owner - marine sale
> 
> 
> 1987 31’ Hunter Sailboat New Mainsail New Bottom Paint 2 New 24 Volt Batteries New Garmin Chart Plotter/Depth Finder/Transducer New Fuel Gauge New 110 Volt Connector New Jabsco Head New Running...
> 
> 
> 
> neworleans.craigslist.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, i went to see this one. 1st... yes I know it is priced to high... But I was curious to see what a higher budget would bring..
> 
> This one made a outstanding impression!
> 
> Solid deck, excellent engine , bottom job 2 months ago...( I talked to the boat yard, they said no blisters, 2 coats primer, 2 coats bottom paint...boat yard guy said he would reccomend cutlass bearing be replaced,.and maybe prop.. on next haulout, but not in awful shape)
> 
> These things are the owner said he had mechanic do recently ...
> 
> Throttle cable, fuel feeder pump, freshwater through hull, 2 24 amp batteries all new. Drained and replaced the diesel, and all the routine maintenance like oil change, impeller, and one of the belts I think..
> 
> Engine ran beautifully!
> 
> Interior was beautiful! And a luxury of cold AC.
> 
> New main sail.. older genoa.
> New lines.
> 
> And you can see the rest in the description.
> 
> It did have some dock rash.. but it was so sunny the day I viewed it, it didn't seem terrible to me. After all, Im guaranteed to add to the dock rash too.
> 
> The high price tag? Well, owner said he would negotiate. He'd only owned it for a year, and with now his job was returning back to a lot of travel. Plus , being gone during hurricane season with a boat to tend to, wasn't something he was looking forward to.
> 
> I bring my sailor buddy to see it on a second viewing. I really respect this guy. He spent a lot of time looking over the boat like a surveyor would.
> 
> His opinion was I not get this boat! I was devastated.
> 
> He had concerns about the dock rash... in different lighting ( a more cloudy day) you could see a number of repairs. My buddy commented that he'd be never seen paint flake off the hull when rubbing hands across it. And at the waterline, he thought it looked like no gellcoat, and even some Fiberglass exposed?
> 
> This is where I need some help. . I was thinking this was a cosmetic problem. For a first boat, cosmetics are not a priority for me.
> 
> I know hull paint jobs are crazy expensive! And definitely labor intensive. (And me with that inconvenient job! The nerve!)
> 
> So my question is...how serious is this problemod dock rash, lack of gelcoat, small area(s?) Or Fiberglass showing on the hull?
> 
> I asked my buddy...so what if the owner were to reduce the price tag quite a bit? Would that make it worth it? The boat has so much going for it? What if by some miracle.he would let it go for $15k?
> 
> My buddy said, he wouldn't recommend it. He seemed to think there will be better out there for me. And, this is the best I've seen so far.
> 
> I am constantly looking at the ads, and I'm shocked at my buddy's recommendation. Again, I really respect this man's opion. So, I'm struggling here a bit.


If the paint is flaking off when you rub it with your hand, you can bet it will all come off, sooner rather than later. The paint may not be a purely cosmetic thing; it may be covering some repairs that you will want to know about. And if there truly is exposed fiberglass at or below the waterline, that's something that needs to be addressed. If it's small areas (like the size of your hand or smaller), then once dry, those can be filled, faired and painted. But larger areas? I'd avoid that kind of repair problem.

It is difficult to give you any kind of real opinion on the problems of this boat with just the description. You really need to include pictures. Next time you look at a boat, whether you are interested or not, take pictures. Lots of pictures. Even if you already know you aren't going to make an offer, it's great practice to take as many photos as you can.


----------



## deniseO30

contrarian said:


> Quick look on local Craigslist this popped up.
> 1990 Year Hunter Hunter 30 - boats - by owner - marine sale
> Might call and try and get a feel for what this one sounds like. You just never know by ads. The absolute best way to buy a boat is from someone that you know from either club racing or at a club where you hang out. A lot of the time these kinds of boats never make it to the open market. Someone just says something like " yeah I heard Bill was going to sell his boat" and word gets around if they have a friend who is in the market for a good boat and they know how well Bill took care of his boat. Maybe you know Bill and one day you get a call from Bill and he offers you his boat for a very reasonable price so that he can purchase that bigger boat that he's always wanted.
> Hang in there girl.... It's gonna happen! Don't know how, just know that it will.


It's fiberglass! it can be repaired it would have to be awful bad to be beyond repair which is not likely. if you can find proof like receipts for other work that he's done it would tell you right there that he wouldn't invest lay out expense in a boat that was so badly damaged it's beyond repair, it was probably raced, I don't think the price is all that high for an 87. Tanks are generally not drained because they don't have drains on them. Tanks need to be checked for sludge whenever a boat sits for a long period of time unlike trucks and power boats that use diesel that are always going empty and being refilled. I'm always amazed how cosmetics are almost always the whole reason people are afraid to buy a boat when mechanicals, rigging standing rigging sales hardware galley furnishings are all probably quite good. Your buddy is probably afraid of fiberglass work which is probably why he's telling you not to get it lol. Think it over make a decision if you decide to buy it make an offer hire a surveyor I don't think you regret it if you buy it


----------



## PhilCarlson

Dock rash is generally cosmetic. It won't sink the boat. I would worry about exposed fiberglass below the waterline, but it's all fixable. Maybe make an as-is offer on your budget with an escape clause if the survey finds stuff that wasn't disclosed. It might be the only one he gets.

Or keep looking. Your boat is out there.


----------



## lovebluewater

PhilCarlson said:


> Dock rash is generally cosmetic. It won't sink the boat. I would worry about exposed fiberglass below the waterline, but it's all fixable. Maybe make an as-is offer on your budget with an escape clause if the survey finds stuff that wasn't disclosed. It might be the only one he gets.
> 
> Or keep looking. Your boat is out there.


Thank you! The reason I made the long post about this boat is that I'm trying to understand deal breakers vs expenses. I was so shocked when I was advised not to purchase this one... just when I thought I was getting the hang of sifting out the good from the bad?

Solid deck
Solid engine
Solid bottom
Beautiful interior

But questionable exterior hull? The only thing my buddy said was that it was certainly bad for resale, and at that asking price-'then no way. -- To which I agree.

I just figured that it wouldn't hurt to make an appropriate lower offer.

Then, once I get filled with this doubt... I can't do it.


----------



## PhilCarlson

lovebluewater said:


> Then, once I get filled with this doubt... I can't do it.


You've been at this long enough that you have a solid list of wants, needs, likes, and deal-breakers. I think at this point your instincts are pretty reliable.

You're friend's advice is also pretty solid that there are better boats and deals out there (which also supports making a lowball offer) but if there is a price point on this one that you are comfortable with, and you have an out if the survey turns up a dealbreaker, why not make the offer? It's an old boat there will be problems. What you want to avoid are catastrophic surprises.


----------



## lovebluewater

PhilCarlson said:


> Dock rash is generally cosmetic. It won't sink the boat. I would worry about exposed fiberglass below the waterline, but it's all fixable. Maybe make an as-is offer on your budget with an escape clause if the survey finds stuff that wasn't disclosed. It might be the only one he gets.
> 
> Or keep looking. Your boat is out there.


----------



## Minnewaska

That's one cut rate paint job. If it were the absolute only thing wrong and the price allowed for a new paint job, it would be up to you. Often one cut rate things leads to another. What exactly, other than the paint, did your buddy object to?


----------



## PhilCarlson

In the first pic, the ding in the bow looks like the anchor swung back an hit it. The marks along the side look like she rubbed up against a pole. (Braille docking method?)

Second pic, it looks like stress marks around the upper (and maybe lower, I can't tell for sure) thru hull. Fiberglass can flex, not necessarily a deal breaker but needs a good look.

Overall I'd say that the paint was done by someone who shouldn't be painting boats.

Not seeing anything beyond cosmetic


----------



## deniseO30

I'm guessing there was some kind of solvent in the bilgewater and the anchor locker when they drained or pumped out because the moisture water whatever even oil got behind the really bad paint job. 

Not a reason not to buy it unless you're not able to have her put on the hard and DIY. it's not rocket science to use electric sanders scrapers, and sunlight to dry out the fiberglass. And roll on fairing sand and barrier coat. Been there done that!!


----------



## JimsCAL

That is truly an awful paint job. If it was just done for cosmetic reasons, then they wasted a lot of time and money to make things worse. Of course it could be covering up repairs or other more serious issues. Either way, I would walk.


----------



## mstern

I don't think that's dock rash. That's the paint job failing. This boat is going to look like absolute crap within two years. You've said cosmetics won't affect your decision too much. Picture the entire boat looking like that before you decide. And for my money, painting a boat isn't a DIY project. I think that painting is one of those things best left to professionals with experience and the proper equipment. This boat seems to me to be a case in point. If you don't do it well, it can be a terrible mess. This is really one of the few jobs where hard work and a willingness to grind it out doesn't necessarily mean you can do a good job. Granted, there are DIY'ers who are capable of a great job. If you want to see one of them, check out Sail Life on YouTube. He painted the hull of his 38' sailboat with rollers and brushes, and it came out fantastic. But the amount of effort it took was really impressive. He spent weeks fairing, sanding and otherwise prepping the hull before he even got to painting. And even though Mads is technically a DIY'er, his level of skill probably exceeds what you would find in most boat yards. Long way of saying that unless the owner is willing to come waaaay down in price (in order to finance your repainting the boat), I don't see how this is a good deal for you.


----------



## lovebluewater

Minnewaska said:


> That's one cut rate paint job. If it were the absolute only thing wrong and the price allowed for a new paint job, it would be up to you. Often one cut rate things leads to another. What exactly, other than the paint, did your buddy object to?


That is the only thing...and the price! But i never ever planned on paying that price.

He is on vacation now, and I hate to bother him. But I plan on having more conversation.. just for the knowledge.


JimsCAL said:


> That is truly an awful paint job. If it was just done for cosmetic reasons, then they wasted a lot of time and money to make things worse. Of course it could be covering up repairs or other more serious issues. Either way, I would walk.


 I think that might have been my buddy's concern as well.. a cover up...there were several places that were particularly odd , and likely a patch job. ?


----------



## deniseO30

lovebluewater said:


> That is the only thing...and the price! But i never ever planned on paying that price.
> 
> He is on vacation now, and I hate to bother him. But I plan on having more conversation.. just for the knowledge.
> 
> I think that might have been my buddy's concern as well.. a cover up...there were several places that were particularly odd , and likely a patch job. ?


My guess it's a bad paint job because they got tired of compounding wax on wax off wax on wax off which is very hard work and some people think by painting a boat it will be shiny and new again but they soon find out the error of their thinking and put the boat up for sale! And very few ever get the wax out of the gel coat in preparation of painting!


----------



## lovebluewater

mstern said:


> I don't think that's dock rash. That's the paint job failing. This boat is going to look like absolute crap within two years. You've said cosmetics won't affect your decision too much. Picture the entire boat looking like that before you decide. And for my money, painting a boat isn't a DIY project. I think that painting is one of those things best left to professionals with experience and the proper equipment. This boat seems to me to be a case in point. If you don't do it well, it can be a terrible mess. This is really one of the few jobs where hard work and a willingness to grind it out doesn't necessarily mean you can do a good job. Granted, there are DIY'ers who are capable of a great job. If you want to see one of them, check out Sail Life on YouTube. He painted the hull of his 38' sailboat with rollers and brushes, and it came out fantastic. But the amount of effort it took was really impressive. He spent weeks fairing, sanding and otherwise prepping the hull before he even got to painting. And even though Mads is technically a DIY'er, his level of skill probably exceeds what you would find in most boat yards. Long way of saying that unless the owner is willing to come waaaay down in price (in order to finance your repainting the boat), I don't see how this is a good deal for you.


I am appreciative of this validation. I did ask a boat yard guy for a rough price for that size boat hull to be painted.... OUCH! $6-10k


----------



## deniseO30

lovebluewater said:


> I am appreciative of this validation. I did ask a boat yard guy for a rough price for that size boat hull to be painted.... OUCH! $6-10k


If you can't be a DIYer it WILL be $$$$$! My guess is they didn't even prep the surfaces when they painted the boat.


----------



## Minnewaska

lovebluewater said:


> I did ask a boat yard guy for a rough price for that size boat hull to be painted.... OUCH! $6-10k


That is a good estimate. The low end being a deal and the high end being a high end painting shop. $300/ft +/- is a decent budget. In this case, the old paint needs to be fully removed, which will increase the effort.


----------



## mstern

Minnewaska said:


> That is a good estimate. The low end being a deal and the high end being a high end painting shop. $300/ft +/- is a decent budget. In this case, the old paint needs to be fully removed, which will increase the effort.


My yard has a derelict Catalina 27 prominently displayed in the parking lot as an advert for painting services, right next to the offices. The rear half of the visible side of the boat retains the original gel coat finish, which is chalky, stained and dull. The forward half has been painted with flag blue Awlgrip. This boat has sat there, untouched and unmaintained for at least seven years, and the painted half still looks mirror-shiny, like it was painted last week. This is the quality of product you can get when you use good materials, controlled conditions, top quality equipment and experienced professionals.


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## lovebluewater

Well..I still haven't found a boat. I sort of slacked off on looking for one. BUT... some good news.. I was given a tip by a fellow newby... apparently, approximately a year ago there was an addition to one of the marinas in West End in New Orleans. It's called " comunity sailing NOLA. And It has something I'm looking for. .. for $500 for the year, I have access to their small fleet of boats. Decent hours are available. There are some tiny sailing dinghies that I'm not interested in using...then there are about 6 boats that are 20ft, and one 26ft capri. 

Ive been checked off for the 20ft boat use, and I feel great about using it. I believe I'm ready for using the 26ft, ...so that will be soon..it is unfortunately not ready to sail, but they claim it will be soon.


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## lovebluewater

I am having dreams and hopes of sailingthe Bahamas. Anyone here done that? If yes, tell me everything!

I'm reseaching like crazy....yes I know I still need much sailing experience... but, reseach in never a waste of time IMO.

With the right strategy, it looks quite do-able , even for this newby in a couple of years? 

Advice please!


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## SanderO

lovebluewater said:


> I am having dreams and hopes of sailingthe Bahamas. Anyone here done that? If yes, tell me everything!
> 
> I'm reseaching like crazy....yes I know I still need much sailing experience... but, reseach in never a waste of time IMO.
> 
> With the right strategy, it looks quite do-able , even for this newby in a couple of years?
> 
> Advice please!


Take sailing courses, read as much as you can... practice sailing and navigation in all conditions. Sailing your boat has to be as second nature as driving your car.

This site should have a bibliography...


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## danvon

lovebluewater said:


> Well..I still haven't found a boat. I sort of slacked off on looking for one. BUT... some good news.. I was given a tip by a fellow newby... apparently, approximately a year ago there was an addition to one of the marinas in West End in New Orleans. It's called " comunity sailing NOLA. And It has something I'm looking for. .. for $500 for the year, I have access to their small fleet of boats. Decent hours are available. There are some tiny sailing dinghies that I'm not interested in using...then there are about 6 boats that are 20ft, and one 26ft capri.
> 
> Ive been checked off for the 20ft boat use, and I feel great about using it. I believe I'm ready for using the 26ft, ...so that will be soon..it is unfortunately not ready to sail, but they claim it will be soon.


That's a really good plan. Don't rule out some time in the dinghys as there's no quicker way to get a feel for how to actually work with the wind & see how a boat responds. Also if they are doing a bunch of work on the Capri, you might want to see if you can put in some volunteer time. What you learn doing that would be a big head start in terms of your boat search/knowing what to look for and for working on it after you find it.


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## lovebluewater

danvon said:


> That's a really good plan. Don't rule out some time in the dinghys as there's no quicker way to get a feel for how to actually work with the wind & see how a boat responds. Also if they are doing a bunch of work on the Capri, you might want to see if you can put in some volunteer time. What you learn doing that would be a big head start in terms of your boat search/knowing what to look for and for working on it after you find it.


Thanks-- I just sent an email, requesting to volunteer.


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## PhilCarlson

lovebluewater said:


> Well..I still haven't found a boat. I sort of slacked off on looking for one. BUT... some good news.. I was given a tip by a fellow newby... apparently, approximately a year ago there was an addition to one of the marinas in West End in New Orleans. It's called " comunity sailing NOLA. And It has something I'm looking for. .. for $500 for the year, I have access to their small fleet of boats. Decent hours are available. There are some tiny sailing dinghies that I'm not interested in using...then there are about 6 boats that are 20ft, and one 26ft capri.
> 
> Ive been checked off for the 20ft boat use, and I feel great about using it. I believe I'm ready for using the 26ft, ...so that will be soon..it is unfortunately not ready to sail, but they claim it will be soon.


This is great! It checks almost all of the learning/experience boxes and you can continue your boat search without a sense of urgency clouding your judgement.


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## deniseO30

lovebluewater said:


> Well..I still haven't found a boat. I sort of slacked off on looking for one. BUT... some good news.. I was given a tip by a fellow newby... apparently, approximately a year ago there was an addition to one of the marinas in West End in New Orleans. It's called " comunity sailing NOLA. And It has something I'm looking for. .. for $500 for the year, I have access to their small fleet of boats. Decent hours are available. There are some tiny sailing dinghies that I'm not interested in using...then there are about 6 boats that are 20ft, and one 26ft capri.
> 
> Ive been checked off for the 20ft boat use, and I feel great about using it. I believe I'm ready for using the 26ft, ...so that will be soon..it is unfortunately not ready to sail, but they claim it will be soon.


Knowledge is everything! The more you are around boats the more you will learn, personally I feel the more you trust others the more you will get ripped but that's just my perception from being in business for 50 years. I joined a couple women's sailing groups on social media they're quite active I'm really amazed with the knowledge some of the ladies have! The boat I'm about to buy when in the water yesterday and they're pressuring me to buy it at the price I offered and I probably will but I'm certainly going to make them work for it


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## deniseO30

Hunter 34 going in!







youtube.com


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## PhilCarlson

deniseO30 said:


> ...the more you trust others the more you will get ripped...


Truer words have never been spoken! Learning this cost me almost a year of retirement.

In God we trust, all others pay cash.


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## mstern

lovebluewater said:


> I am having dreams and hopes of sailingthe Bahamas. Anyone here done that? If yes, tell me everything!
> 
> I'm reseaching like crazy....yes I know I still need much sailing experience... but, reseach in never a waste of time IMO.
> 
> With the right strategy, it looks quite do-able , even for this newby in a couple of years?
> 
> Advice please!


Completely doable. Be smart about choosing your weather window to cross the Gulf Stream, and you'll do great. There are so many books and cruising guides that you can be quite prepared for the Bahamas before you set foot on your boat. One other avenue of research: Youtube vlogs. Lots of people have documented their trips to the Bahamas aboard sailboats. You can follow these unusually attractive people as they choose a boat, fix it up, make preparations and then finally set sail to the Bahamas. Watch them make mistakes so you don't have to! One that I enjoy is "Sailing Soulianis". The vlog has been going on for awhile, but you can concentrate on the Bahamas adventure. Looks like a paradise.


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## lovebluewater

deniseO30 said:


> Knowledge is everything! The more you are around boats the more you will learn, personally I feel the more you trust others the more you will get ripped but that's just my perception from being in business for 50 years. I joined a couple women's sailing groups on social media they're quite active I'm really amazed with the knowledge some of the ladies have! The boat I'm about to buy when in the water yesterday and they're pressuring me to buy it at the price I offered and I probably will but I'm certainly going to make them work for it
> 
> View attachment 139986


How exciting! She looks great in this photo! I hope it works out! I have butterflies for you!


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## lovebluewater

mstern said:


> Completely doable. Be smart about choosing your weather window to cross the Gulf Stream, and you'll do great. There are so many books and cruising guides that you can be quite prepared for the Bahamas before you set foot on your boat. One other avenue of research: Youtube vlogs. Lots of people have documented their trips to the Bahamas aboard sailboats. You can follow these unusually attractive people as they choose a boat, fix it up, make preparations and then finally set sail to the Bahamas. Watch them make mistakes so you don't have to! One that I enjoy is "Sailing Soulianis". The vlog has been going on for awhile, but you can concentrate on the Bahamas adventure. Looks like a paradise.


Oh, I am inspired, and some might say addicted ( My hubby and my daughters) to watching all sorts of youtube on all sorts of sailing, repairs, shopping, chartplotting-- etc.

UMA, Atticus, Delos, the Wynns-- some of my favorites.


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## lovebluewater

Does anyone know of a charter company that sails from florida-- Keys or thereabouts-- to go to the Bahamas? A recent idea I was given, was to be a passenger to a qualified Captain, and it's like getting lessons at the same time I would enjoy a much needed vacation. I am open to going from South Florida to the Dry Tortugas too in this manner. (This would likely be more economical.) I see some on line, but a 1st hand recommendation would be great.


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## deniseO30

I put the brakes on buying this Hunter there's too much water coming into the bilge it looks like they're going to have to pull the boat back out again they are not happy not that they care about my happiness but I'm not happy either!


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## JimsCAL

deniseO30 said:


> I put the brakes on buying this Hunter there's too much water coming into the bilge it looks like they're going to have to pull the boat back out again they are not happy not that they care about my happiness but I'm not happy either!


Anyone figure out where the water is coming from? Could be something as simple as the stuffing box.


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## deniseO30

JimsCAL said:


> Anyone figure out where the water is coming from? Could be something as simple as the stuffing box.


Even I'm stumped at thi is not the stuffing box because the engine and stuffing box have to run little bills areas but it's dry it only drips a little bit when the engine's running no this water is coming in too fast for my comfort level about 4 inches and 15 to 20 minutes. Owner thinks it's a through hull, broker finally agreed with me that the boat will probably have to be pulled again. Nobody is happy obviously


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## contrarian

Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to replace all the thru hulls. I'm surprised that no one checked the thru hulls when it went back in the water. Were any changed while the boat was on the hard?


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## deniseO30

contrarian said:


> Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to replace all the thru hulls. I'm surprised that no one checked the thru hulls when it went back in the water. Were any changed while the boat was on the hard?


It's not my boat. The surveyor checked everything but you can't see leaks on a dry boat everything looked good from the outside we had it in the water all day, late in the day is when I discovered bilge filling up. But I think they are finally past the denial stage, it all falls on to the owner. But this is what surveys and see trials are for they don't always come out turn out good.


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## contrarian

deniseO30 said:


> this water is coming in too fast for my comfort level about 4 inches and 15 to 20 minutes.


What I was referring to was checking the thru hulls while the boat is still in the slings of the travel lift when it is being splashed. The rate of ingress that was originally posted ie the 4" in 15 to 20 minutes would be obvious if you were looking at the thru hull. What's confusing is the comment that


deniseO30 said:


> we had it in the water all day, late in the day is when I discovered bilge filling up


These two comments seem to be at odds with each other. 4" in 15 to 20 minutes and a boat being in the water all day equals a sunken boat.
I'm obviously missing something here but either way, a pass on this boat does seem prudent. I'm sure it is rather discouraging to get this far into the deal and have the thing go sour.


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## deniseO30

contrarian said:


> What I was referring to was checking the thru hulls while the boat is still in the slings of the travel lift when it is being splashed. The rate of ingress that was originally posted ie the 4" in 15 to 20 minutes would be obvious if you were looking at the thru hull. What's confusing is the comment that
> 
> These two comments seem to be at odds with each other. 4" in 15 to 20 minutes and a boat being in the water all day equals a sunken boat.
> I'm obviously missing something here but either way, a pass on this boat does seem prudent. I'm sure it is rather discouraging to get this far into the deal and have the thing go sour.


I watched the surveyor check all through hulls before it was even in the slings. There was no water in the boat it's been sitting a year, the boat was dry after a rainstorm so I'm relatively sure it is not rain water, I made the offer on the boat it was dry. I called the broker today told him about ready to cut my losses and run, I'll get most of my money back except for the surveyor, he did his job.

All the rest falls on the shoulders of the owner this is a classic case of why boats become abandoned boats because, it's bad enough somebody has to pay to sell their boat and then to pay to fix the boat and sell the boat is not likely to happen. This boat also has a grid so it can be retaining a huge amounts of water that is slowly working as way back to the pump bilge.

Woulda shoulda coulda til the cows come home isn't going to change the amount of water coming into the boat


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## PhilCarlson

lovebluewater said:


> Oh, I am inspired, and some might say addicted ( My hubby and my daughters) to watching all sorts of youtube on all sorts of sailing, repairs, shopping, chartplotting-- etc.
> 
> UMA, Atticus, Delos, the Wynns-- some of my favorites.


There are worse addictions. Just don't let it replace action. It's never a bad thing to annoy young girls, it builds character.


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## mstern

lovebluewater said:


> Does anyone know of a charter company that sails from florida-- Keys or thereabouts-- to go to the Bahamas? A recent idea I was given, was to be a passenger to a qualified Captain, and it's like getting lessons at the same time I would enjoy a much needed vacation. I am open to going from South Florida to the Dry Tortugas too in this manner. (This would likely be more economical.) I see some on line, but a 1st hand recommendation would be great.


There are basically three ways to book a charter: use one of the established companies (e.g., the Moorings/Sunsail, CYOC, etc.), use a broker to find you an "independent" charter boat, and find an independent on your own.

The option you describe is basically a crewed charter. A crewed charter can be just a captain, a captain and a cook, or even more, depending on the size of the boat and the level of comfort you are willing to pay for. Any of them will let you do as much of the work as you would like. The charter companies tend to have the lowest prices; along with that comes (often) the most "used" vessels and less experienced crews. I am unfamiliar with any distance limits charter boat companies may have on their charters. You'd have to call them directly. I'd be surprised if there weren't a charter boat company based somewhere in the Bahamas itself.

I've only chartered once, but I had a great experience using a broker. I called them up (Ed Hamilton), told them what I was looking for, and they sent me back about ten suggested charter boats. I narrowed them down to three, then discussed the three boats and crews with my Ed Hamilton broker; he had been on all of the boats and knew all of the crews. Made the process so easy. If there's a charter boat company or individual charter boat that will give you Gulf Stream crossing to the Bahamas, the folks at Ed Hamilton will know. And you don't pay anything for their services. Btw, I have no connection to Ed Hamilton, other than being a very satisfied customer.


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## cp5899

Any updates on your sail boat search? I am in the same area and have been thinking about sailing and keeping a boat behind my house on the water for years. I have owned many power boats, but this will by my first sail boat. Getting serious about making it happen and curious how your experience has gone sailing lake P and the surrounding area.


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## Lanealoha

"_A lot of people will toss out the rule of thumb of 10% per year of the cost of the boat"_

I do, its more like 10% per month since I bought my boat. Cant wait for it to only be 10% per year, I might have some money again....


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## TakeFive

Lanealoha said:


> "_A lot of people will toss out the rule of thumb of 10% per year of the cost of the boat"_
> 
> I do, its more like 10% per month since I bought my boat. Cant wait for it to only be 10% per year, I might have some money again....


Obviously it depends on what boat you buy. That "bargain basement" boat may be the most expensive boat you can buy. And slip and storage fees are the same regardless of what kind of condition your boat is in. Liability insurance (required by marinas) will often be higher for a boat that is older and/or dilapidated.


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## PhilCarlson

cp5899 said:


> Any updates on your sail boat search? I am in the same area and have been thinking about sailing and keeping a boat behind my house on the water for years. I have owned many power boats, but this will by my first sail boat. Getting serious about making it happen and curious how your experience has gone sailing lake P and the surrounding area.


She bought a Laguna 33. Hopefully she will post some pics of her pride and joy, and adventures! @lovebluewater


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## cp5899

That is awesome. I would like to read about the finished process and what all went into moving forward on the boat she actually bought.

Thanks for the update.


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## lovebluewater

cp5899 said:


> Any updates on your sail boat search? I am in the same area and have been thinking about sailing and keeping a boat behind my house on the water for years. I have owned many power boats, but this will by my first sail boat. Getting serious about making it happen and curious how your experience has gone sailing lake P and the surrounding area.


Yes... it was a long search, but I purchased my girl at the end of February this year. I Couldn't be happier.! I'm really glad it took a while to find her. I learned so much in the process. 

As for sailing, I learn something new with each sail. I've been taking her out 1-2x/week.but the summer likely reduce that. Although I might try sunrise sailing if there is wind.


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## SHNOOL

Ah man didn't realize she purchased. This thread means nothing without pictures!


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## SanderO

SHNOOL said:


> Ah man didn't realize she purchased. This thread means nothing without pictures!


It seems odd to engage the forum about a search for a boat and then not even mention what the boat she got was...


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## lovebluewater




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## lovebluewater

Thank you all. ! Your advice and encouragement helped so much in making this happen!


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## cp5899

Very nice. Yes the summer winds have been non existent. I am trying to make it to the noyc on Wednesday’s, but the wind has been so low I haven’t bothered making the drive.


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## SanderO

Very nice! Enjoy, Be careful!


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## lovebluewater

PhilCarlson said:


> She bought a Laguna 33. Hopefully she will post some pics of her pride and joy, and adventures! @lovebluewater


I am digging my Lake P.. there is a lot for me to sail around and over to the Mississippi Gulf Coast.. eventually! Loving it! ❤


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## SHNOOL

Oh man what a awesome conclusion to the thread!


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## Smth




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## eherlihy

lovebluewater said:


> Thank you all. ! Your advice and encouragement helped so much in making this happen!


Forgive me for being late to the thread, and if this has been discussed earlier....That looks like an O'day 30! That is a GREAT first boat, and a long way to come with only ASA 101 under your belt! Congratulations!


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