# Two speed Mainsheeting



## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

*Two speed main sheeting*

What is your favorite system, the two sheet system or cascading. My application is mid boom cabin top traveler and close hauled I would like to adjust without using the winch and I don't like all the friction of all the turns the sheet makes getting there. I don't mind working it at the traveler. I have looked at going end boom and moving the traveler but there are just too many obstacles to this. 
Boat is CS 30


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

What is your favorite system, the two sheet system or cascading. My application is mid boom cabin top traveler and close hauled I would like to adjust without using the winch and I don't like all the friction of all the turns the sheet makes getting there. I don't mind working it at the traveler. I have looked at going end boom and moving the traveler but there are just too many obstacles to this. 
Boat is CS 30


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

We actually use both systems, one on each of our boats.

On our First 260 we use a two-sheet system, a harken 3:1/6:1. This is on a end-boom attach on a 220 Sqr foot main.

On the First 36.7 we use a cascaded system 6:1/24:1 end boomed on a 400 Sqr foot main. It actually uses mostly the same hardware, just with a 4:1 added to the end of one of the main sheet. This is the way to do it unless you can make a sportboat-style setup work... But that usually has to be designed into the cockpit layout.

Given my choice, I would use the two sheet system, IF the ratios work. 
1) You never run out of sheet. On the cascade you are constantly resetting that to make sure you are not closed all the way down or are all the way open. In either of those cases it's non functional. It's a total pain if you need more trim and you are out of fine-tune room.
2) It's so much easier. Pull one sheet for low gear. Pull them both when you want to take in a ton of line fast. With a tiny bit of care you never run out. Worried about that? Just use a very long sheet!

The downside is that the ratios have to work for your boat/trimmer, and you only have options of one ratio being twice the other. 2:1/4:1, 3:1/6:1, 4:1/8:1. On a cascade system you can pick the first and then pick pretty much any multiple of that first one. On the 367 gear once you start with 6:1 the cascade could have been 12:1, 18:1, 24:1 etc

I don't know how people use single speed systems on boats of any real size. In particular when you are looking for optimal up-wind performance. The last 12 inches are normaly a real ***** in a breeze.

Base Harken:


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I conceptually like the 332 cascade system, but with a cabin top mounted traveler, you do not have enough distance between the boom and the traveler to get much use out of the cascade. Another trouble with that cascade system is that the extra block for the cascade tends to drag across the deck on jibes and catches things more readily than the sheet itself. 

If I was going to rig a the 332 type cascade, and especially on a boat like yours I would actually run the cascade horizontally under the boom and keep it from fouling things have a shallow trampoline fabric cradle run beneath the boom for the length of the cascade that would be hung from the bolt rope slot on the boom. Mounting horizontally gives you a longer throw for the cascade and cleans up the mess.

Jeff


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> I conceptually like the 332 cascade system, but with a cabin top mounted traveler, you do not have enough distance between the boom and the traveler to get much use out of the cascade. Another trouble with that cascade system is that the extra block for the cascade tends to drag across the deck on jibes and catches things more readily than the sheet itself.
> 
> If I was going to rig a the 332 type cascade, and especially on a boat like yours I would actually run the cascade horizontally under the boom and keep it from fouling things have a shallow trampoline fabric cradle run beneath the boom for the length of the cascade that would be hung from the bolt rope slot on the boom. Mounting horizontally gives you a longer throw for the cascade and cleans up the mess.
> 
> Jeff


The 332 is not a cascade system. It is a two-sheet two speed. As long as the two ends are not 'blocked' closed, you can use either ratio.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I can't see the two sheet setup being practical on a cabin mounted traveler forward of the companionway. To be able to easily 'choose' to pull both or one sheet the traveler needs to be in the cockpit.

For forward travelers like that I think the 'German' system running to secondary winches in the cockpit will get the job done with less clutter. However you need to have chafe-free runs from the gooseneck to the turning points on deck, and ideally the turning point should be close to the cabin side to reduce interference with getting forward on deck. The CS30 has a relatively tall house and this may be an issue...


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Faster said:


> I can't see the two sheet setup being practical on a cabin mounted traveler forward of the companionway. To be able to easily 'choose' to pull both or one sheet the traveler needs to be in the cockpit.
> 
> For forward travelers like that I think the 'German' system running to secondary winches in the cockpit will get the job done with less clutter. However you need to have chafe-free runs from the gooseneck to the turning points on deck, and ideally the turning point should be close to the cabin side to reduce interference with getting forward on deck. The CS30 has a relatively tall house and this may be an issue...


IIRC the Canadian Sailcraft 30 uses a mainsheet with a cleat on a fiddle on the lower block. In that regard the Harken 332 would be a drop-in replacement for that, played the exact same way, just with 2 sheets as opposed to one.

It is also possible to buy the just bottom block, and use the existing boom-side setup (maybe adding one block to act as the 'middle') to replicate the distributed mid-boom load.

The CS30 has a very small main for a 30 footer, hell my 24.5 foot long F260 has as much main area. I think a German system would be a total waste of effort and gear. Plus I find them hard to play, in particular on a small boat.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

jackdaw said:


> The 332 is not a cascade system. It is a two-sheet two speed. As long as the two ends are not 'blocked' closed, you can use either ratio.


Right you are! I had mistaken the smaller upper block for a cascade. 
That will teach me to look at a small picture without my glasses on he said *grinning sheepishly*.

I think that Ron (Faaster) has that right about not being able to use either two-speed system as effectively with a cabin top mounted traveler.

Jeff


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> Right you are! I had mistaken the smaller upper block for a cascade.
> That will teach me to look at a small picture without my glasses on he said *grinning sheepishly*.
> 
> I think that Ron (Faaster) has that right about not being able to use either two-speed system as effectively with a cabin top mounted traveler.
> ...


Trust me I get that! Now where are my readers???

Read my last comment and tell me what you think.... Personally I think the 2:1 would be a fine drop-in replacement as long as the ratios work. Ideally you split the existing ratio; a 4:1 becomes a 3:1/6:1. Or a 6:1 becomes a 4:1/8:1. If you are replacing a single with a two-speed and one of the ratios match, you have to realize that you will only be getting help on the other side!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Al.. does your mainsheet cleat at the lower block? or is the sheet led forward to the gooseneck, then aft to a cabintop cleat or winch? Are you using a dodger?

One other option: if you accept the limitations and 'resetting' of a cascade, the fine tune can run along the boom to a boom mounted cleat above the cockpit.. That way you'll have an easy reach to the fine tune when you need it (ie close hauled and the boom is right there). I ran such a setup for a while but the multi-part fine tune ended up twisting and the friction was too much. In the end I added a part to the coarse tune and that's working for us. You'd need a way to prevent the tackle from twisting itself up.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

You could easily add a four or six too one purchase inside the boom with the tail exiting into the cockpit. Or you could create a German system and bring the sheet back to a two speed winch. We use a winch, not a German system, and it works well, ratios are 25/100/400 too 1.


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

*Re: Two speed main sheeting*

Have a 3-1/6-1 system with end boom sheeting. Really nice to be able to haul in large amounts of sheet and still have the power of 6-1 for final tuning. With our 16' boom, the sheet would have been quite long for a single line system. Only negative is stopper knots on the end of the sheets are a must as you can easily get one tail way longer than the other if not paying attention and have the sheet unnerve itself through the blocks. Boat came with a 4-1 block set up but needed more power for final trim on the main. Was going to go with 6-1 single speed system but the length of the sheet made me nervous. The two speed system gave the best of all possible worlds.

It might not be as advantageous or worth the expense on mid boom sheeting with the shorter length of the sheet.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Re: Two speed main sheeting*



roverhi said:


> Have a 3-1/6-1 system with end boom sheeting. Really nice to be able to haul in large amounts of sheet and still have the power of 6-1 for final tuning. With our 16' boom, the sheet would have been quite long for a single line system. ..........Was going to go with 6-1 single speed system but the length of the sheet made me nervous. The two speed system gave the best of all possible worlds.


I don't understand this. I might be missing something but it would seem like the sheet is exactly the same length whether it is a 6:1 or a 3:1/6:1.

Jeff


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

*Re: Two speed main sheeting*



Jeff_H said:


> I don't understand this. I might be missing something but it would seem like the sheet is exactly the same length whether it is a 6:1 or a 3:1/6:1.
> 
> Jeff


Indeed. If anything the two-speed will slightly longer to allow more tail. That helps when the sheets become unbalanced and you are fully run out. You can always re-balance on the fly, but while racing its nice if you don't have to.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

jackdaw said:


> We actually use both systems, one on each of our boats.
> 
> On our First 260 we use a two-sheet system, a harken 3:1/6:1. This is on a end-boom attach on a 220 Sqr foot main.
> 
> ...


Thanks to all for the replies, I will try to address all points.

I'm running 3-1 now then to the winch when needed. Problem is with the sheet running along the boom turning at the gooseneck and through all the organizers and clutch then the winch you cant "feel" any of it. Just too much friction. The 3/6-1 would probably give what I need to hand trim my 210 SF Main the difference being my mid boom to your end boom on the First. I don't think I need to 4/8-1 especially if I decide to move the traveler to the cockpit. Problem there is it would be all but impossible to recess it for safety.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Jeff_H said:


> I conceptually like the 332 cascade system, but with a cabin top mounted traveler, you do not have enough distance between the boom and the traveler to get much use out of the cascade. Another trouble with that cascade system is that the extra block for the cascade tends to drag across the deck on jibes and catches things more readily than the sheet itself.
> 
> If I was going to rig a the 332 type cascade, and especially on a boat like yours I would actually run the cascade horizontally under the boom and keep it from fouling things have a shallow trampoline fabric cradle run beneath the boom for the length of the cascade that would be hung from the bolt rope slot on the boom. Mounting horizontally gives you a longer throw for the cascade and cleans up the mess.
> 
> Jeff


Interesting thought cascading under the boom this will be considered.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Faster said:


> I can't see the two sheet setup being practical on a cabin mounted traveler forward of the companionway. To be able to easily 'choose' to pull both or one sheet the traveler needs to be in the cockpit.
> 
> For forward travelers like that I think the 'German' system running to secondary winches in the cockpit will get the job done with less clutter. However you need to have chafe-free runs from the gooseneck to the turning points on deck, and ideally the turning point should be close to the cabin side to reduce interference with getting forward on deck. The CS30 has a relatively tall house and this may be an issue...


I'm sure that's why it was routed back to the cabin top winch its a bit of a reach. Weighing all options at this point.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Faster said:


> Al.. does your mainsheet cleat at the lower block? or is the sheet led forward to the gooseneck, then aft to a cabintop cleat or winch? Are you using a dodger?
> 
> One other option: if you accept the limitations and 'resetting' of a cascade, the fine tune can run along the boom to a boom mounted cleat above the cockpit.. That way you'll have an easy reach to the fine tune when you need it (ie close hauled and the boom is right there). I ran such a setup for a while but the multi-part fine tune ended up twisting and the friction was too much. In the end I added a part to the coarse tune and that's working for us. You'd need a way to prevent the tackle from twisting itself up.


No, all the way back, and no Dodger I didn't like it because it interfered with the clutches, bad trade off for me.
The cascade is interesting to me especially if it can go under the Boom. Maybe I try the coarse sheeting by just adding a block with a cam cleat to the traveler and bring the cascade line back to the cabin top. That takes most of the friction out in light winds and uses the cascade only for the heavy stuff. Working both ends of the sheet as needed, for leverage or speed.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

yes you have the same amount of line under your feet it is just two pieces. I tried this and found that the end is always shifted to where there is only one sheet that is long and one that is short so when you go to let out the sheet to go down wind you are letting out only one sheet and the other is at the stopper knot. they do pull in faster but as you are pulling it is hard to hold both lines and if you loose one you end up pulling just the one line rather then look for both and distracting when racing. what you need is half of the sheet a different color so you know which half of the sheet you are to use when trimming. also two sheets get caught on twice as many things. it was a PITA I don't have the problem anymore.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

albrazzi said:


> Thanks to all for the replies, I will try to address all points.


You are doing this the right way; by looking at the the pros and cons and then making a plan.

The sheet run will be a key factor in this. But it sounds like you already get that.

A cascade is very attractive (and powerful!) but with more move caveat to add on a cabin-top install. Cascades work best with a fairly large sheet run between the blocks, like you find in a cockpit setup. It gives you a wide range of adjustment with the cascade, and also a range that you can use the gross-tune without blocking out the cascade or running out of fine range. If the distance is too small you spend all your time keeping them adjusted.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Shockwave said:


> You could easily add a four or six too one purchase inside the boom with the tail exiting into the cockpit. Or you could create a German system and bring the sheet back to a two speed winch. We use a winch, not a German system, and it works well, ratios are 25/100/400 too 1.


The Boom is full, 4 pulleys now, 2) reefs, an outhaul with a small purchase, and a forth for the flattener. Actually the one with the purchase may become the flattener and the straight one for the outhaul. All go to a winch location anyway. Would consider using the one with the purchase for the Main cascade but not sure how it would enter the boom. Plus I'm not comfortable with sheeting being inside the Boom. I'm open to Ideas.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

*Re: Two speed main sheeting*



jackdaw said:


> Indeed. If anything the two-speed will slightly longer to allow more tail. That helps when the sheets become unbalanced and you are fully run out. You can always re-balance on the fly, but while racing its nice if you don't have to.


Same length sheet but if you let both out at the same time then it goes out faster because there are two of them. so it's like being half the length. Seems to me anyway.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

albrazzi said:


> No, all the way back, and no Dodger I didn't like it because it interfered with the clutches, bad trade off for me.
> The cascade is interesting to me especially if it can go under the Boom. Maybe I try the coarse sheeting by just adding a block with a cam cleat to the traveler and bring the cascade line back to the cabin top. That takes most of the friction out in light winds and uses the cascade only for the heavy stuff. Working both ends of the sheet as needed, for leverage or speed.


If you do the 'along the boom' cascade you'll want to look at whether running forward or running aft gives you more 'length' to work with along the boom.. also a reminder to get blocks that you can somehow prevent from twisting - when twisted tackle is pulled tight the friction nearly negates the 'power'.

Wheel steering? You might prefer having the fine tail hanging off the end of the boom (always over the cockpit when beating, closer to the wheel/cockpit crew too)

If you've 'tossed' the dodger, I'd look at moving the traveler at least to the bridge deck though it looks a bit tricky with that molded bump there. Still, anythings possible with some forethought but it's a bit of a big step.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Faster said:


> If you do the 'along the boom' cascade you'll want to look at whether running forward or running aft gives you more 'length' to work with along the boom.. also a reminder to get blocks that you can somehow prevent from twisting - when twisted tackle is pulled tight the friction nearly negates the 'power'.
> 
> Wheel steering? You might prefer having the fine tail hanging off the end of the boom (always over the cockpit when beating, closer to the wheel/cockpit crew too)
> 
> If you've 'tossed' the dodger, I'd look at moving the traveler at least to the bridge deck though it looks a bit tricky with that molded bump there. Still, anythings possible with some forethought but it's a bit of a big step.


Anything that lets me do more behind the wheel is good, we're technically shorthanded crew wise most days, and racing has become a three generation tradition. It's typically Me, my son and his 16Yo daughter, she's learning fast but not an experienced trimmer by a long shot. I wouldn't have it any other way. 
I'm looking hard at a fine tune on the boom end, thanks for the suggestion. I'm not sure the difference in traveler position its just in front of the companionway hatch I'm calling that cabin top, is that the same as you reference to bridge deck? My old Columbia had it right in front of the companionway at seat level but without being able to recess it, it would be a shin knocker every time you go for a line or winch on the cabin.

It might not have been a deal breaker but I strongly prefer sheeting in the cockpit now after using both on many different Boats.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

By 'bridge deck' I'm referring to the raised area at the companionway.. ie the front area of the cockpit. Some boat's companionways go nearly down to the cockpit sole, others have a 'dam' you step over before getting on the ladder.. that's the bridge deck. From pics I've seen you have a bridge deck, but it's not at one level (bumps up midships) which complicates the idea of the traveler there. A bridge deck mounted traveler is not generally a shin killer, since you're stepping over the deck anyway, but it can/does interfere with lounging and seating when cruising if not recessed.

The CS Merlin has a recessed groove in that area for the (optional) cockpit sheeting. SNer djodenda's traveler is rather short and bridges the gap between seats immediately ahead of the wheel pedestal - a previous owner's modification, I believe. It can't span the cockpit because of the locker lid (your situation, too, I think)


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Faster said:


> By 'bridge deck' I'm referring to the raised area at the companionway.. ie the front area of the cockpit. Some boat's companionways go nearly down to the cockpit sole, others have a 'dam' you step over before getting on the ladder.. that's the bridge deck. From pics I've seen you have a bridge deck, but it's not at one level (bumps up midships) which complicates the idea of the traveler there. A bridge deck mounted traveler is not generally a shin killer, since you're stepping over the deck anyway, but it can/does interfere with lounging and seating when cruising if not recessed.
> 
> The CS Merlin has a recessed groove in that area for the (optional) cockpit sheeting. SNer djodenda's traveler is rather short and bridges the gap between seats immediately ahead of the wheel pedestal - a previous owner's modification, I believe. It can't span the cockpit because of the locker lid (your situation, too, I think)


Gotcha, my old Columbia had it where you mention, kneeling to work cabin top winches would be a killer if not recessed, like I mentioned earlier. Properly recessed the locker lid wouldn't be a problem but if I put it back towards the wheel like Ericson used to do I would have to split the locker lid, not ideal, or in between like DJ but, plus the main sheet would interfere with the jib winches, just not doable. The cockpit on this boat is small favoring the Interior space. That's why all trade offs considered leaving it where it is would be the best option even if the sheet is a reach someone could station on the cabin steps and work the main down wind if need be. Thanks for all the ideas, that's why I like these forums in a few short hours you get a weeks worth of things to think about.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Hello Al,
We had in boom fine trim on one of our boats, it worked fine sharing the available room with outhaul purchases and reefs. You would have to work out where the parts float so there is no interference.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

HERE is an GOB article on my boat, the first page picture shows where my mainsheet traveler is, as is on the Merlin dejodenda has/could be with out a dodger. is yours in the same place? if so, a 4-1/16-1 macro micro is really nice on my boat with a 195sq ft main. My micro is long enough that I can douse the main in gusty conditions, yet put it it back in. The 4-1 worked, but having the 4-1 micro is really nice. A 6-1 single might be ok in the middle. Issue with a 6-1 macro is you have a lot of line in the cockpit. A 4-1 lets things out quick, yet still comes in quick. Then add the micro for fine tuning.......
I keep thinking your CS30 is similar to my arcadia and the Merlin, which are Tony Castro designs. i may be wrong on your 30 tho.......

Marty


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

blt2ski said:


> HERE is an GOB article on my boat, the first page picture shows where my mainsheet traveler is, as is on the Merlin dejodenda has/could be with out a dodger. is yours in the same place? if so, a 4-1/16-1 macro micro is really nice on my boat with a 195sq ft main. My micro is long enough that I can douse the main in gusty conditions, yet put it it back in. The 4-1 worked, but having the 4-1 micro is really nice. A 6-1 single might be ok in the middle. Issue with a 6-1 macro is you have a lot of line in the cockpit. A 4-1 lets things out quick, yet still comes in quick. Then add the micro for fine tuning.......
> I keep thinking your CS30 is similar to my arcadia and the Merlin, which are Tony Castro designs. i may be wrong on your 30 tho.......
> 
> Marty


I'm up on the Cabin top ahead of the hatch. Your location is my best spot if I relocate. If I do I will probably go with the cascade. For now I'm going to leave it where it is and try some options suggested earlier. What prop are you running I think I need to streamline.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Faster said:


> By 'bridge deck' I'm referring to the raised area at the companionway.. ie the front area of the cockpit. Some boat's companionways go nearly down to the cockpit sole, others have a 'dam' you step over before getting on the ladder.. that's the bridge deck. From pics I've seen you have a bridge deck, but it's not at one level (bumps up midships) which complicates the idea of the traveler there. A bridge deck mounted traveler is not generally a shin killer, since you're stepping over the deck anyway, but it can/does interfere with lounging and seating when cruising if not recessed.
> 
> The CS Merlin has a recessed groove in that area for the (optional) cockpit sheeting. SNer djodenda's traveler is rather short and bridges the gap between seats immediately ahead of the wheel pedestal - a previous owner's modification, I believe. It can't span the cockpit because of the locker lid (your situation, too, I think)


Working through all the suggestions after looking specifically with this in mind the traveler would be close enough to the bulkhead to go knee first on the seat and not bump into the traveler. And it can go all the way across in that area. Sometimes you need to reevaluate with a particular suggestion in mind. I can fab something to allow for the curve, be it SS or Teak. I have the skills for something like that, actually it would be fun. I could make a pad that would jam right in there too, its a good place to sit.
I could route the traveler lines back to the helm more easily than any other configuration.

For now I'm going to do a double ended sheet, I have a spare block with a cam cleat, that will allow me to let it out fast at the traveler and trim back in to a point. The other end will also have a double end sheet through one pulley and I'm going to try first going aft and a cam cleat on each side of the boom. This will double the purchase for fine tuning (if that's not enough I will rethink) it will be 3-1 and doubled to 6-1 where I was 4-1 before using a winch. 
Alternately I can go higher at the traveler 5-1 maybe and still double that, or leave the 3-1 and go with a higher ratio on the cascade I want to keep the fine tune as simple as possible so it has the most travel. I will update as this develops.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Al,

I have a max prop that came with the boat when I bought her. If it ever grenades, I would probably go with a Kiwi. I'll probably end up with a bit worst backing with a Kiwi vs the max prop, but the forward part, ie fuel economy would be improved due to the Kiwi being a LOT lighter prop. Could get for me any how, .1-.2 gph better, ie .8 down to .5 gph. With a 7 gal tank, that is an hour or two of traveling vs pulling out the 5 gal jerry can and refueling mid route. Or stopping at a marina to refill..... Another person I know that had a sister boat, cut his fuel consumption in half going back to a fixed prop. But sailing performance was lost. 
Going with a folder/feathering prop netted the previous owner .5-1 knot of boat speed. Using a 5 vs going up to 5.5 knot, you gain close to a minute a mile gain, rating wise, yeah you lose the 9 sec credit, but add in the 60 sec gain, you are ahead 51 secs over a person with a fixed prop! Something to look at if racing.
Going back to your main sheet. I saw a 36s7 a couple of years back. When they cruised with the dodger up, they had a 6-1 setup that they added to the cabin top like you have. Then when they raced, the took off the dodger, and were able to use the traveler where mine is setup, with a 4/16-1 setup as I have. A dodger gets in the way of a traveler where mine is setup.
A couple of things to think about.

marty


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

blt2ski said:


> Al,
> 
> I have a max prop that came with the boat when I bought her. If it ever grenades, I would probably go with a Kiwi. I'll probably end up with a bit worst backing with a Kiwi vs the max prop, but the forward part, ie fuel economy would be improved due to the Kiwi being a LOT lighter prop. Could get for me any how, .1-.2 gph better, ie .8 down to .5 gph. With a 7 gal tank, that is an hour or two of traveling vs pulling out the 5 gal jerry can and refueling mid route. Or stopping at a marina to refill..... Another person I know that had a sister boat, cut his fuel consumption in half going back to a fixed prop. But sailing performance was lost.
> Going with a folder/feathering prop netted the previous owner .5-1 knot of boat speed. Using a 5 vs going up to 5.5 knot, you gain close to a minute a mile gain, rating wise, yeah you lose the 9 sec credit, but add in the 60 sec gain, you are ahead 51 secs over a person with a fixed prop! Something to look at if racing.
> ...


Thanks for the info. I'm not going to be close in the crowd I'm sailing with using my 3 blade fixed, like dragging a 5 gal bucket behind the Boat, kills tacking too. No PHRF credit is worth the time they give you IMHO. Crazy setup cant operate the line clutches with the Dodger on can you believe that? I haven't used the Dodger since I bought the Boat and moving the traveler is looking more and more likely, I can't get the purchase I want (need) with a double end sheet on the cabin top and the cascade is creative at best so I think I'm just going to move it. I can work with the Blocks I have in stock buy some smaller ones for the cascade with a ratchet block, I really like that feature.
I've priced the Maxprop they are probably the high end on feathers, I read a review a while back and the KIWI is reasonable and preforms well too. Are the folding Racing props problematic? they seem to be the cheapest but I want something that's going to preform and hold up. Fuel consumption just doesn't concern me now but its good to know.

Thanks...AL


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Folding props can sometimes be very weak in reverse, and some 'ungeared' props can occasionally only flip open one blade, which generates a very scary vibration in gear. By 'geared, the two blades are connected with gear teeth so that it's impossible for one blade to open.

The reason an ungeared prop can do that is that at rest or at very slow speed, if the blades 'stop' in horizontal orientation the lower blade can drop open from gravity. When put in gear the upper blade isn't necessarily prompted to open on centrifugal force leading to a very unbalanced situation. Usually a quick burst in reverse will straighten that out. Many racers have marks on their shafts and when racing rotate the shaft to ensure the blades are 'stopped and folded' vertically so that can't happen (a hanging blade is slow in really light air)

The best thing about the Max prop is that the blades fully rotate so that even in reverse the blades are working in their 'designed' rotation direction. Most other prop's blades (which have an foil-like profile like a wing) are literally trying to work backwards reducing their efficiency. 

Re moving your traveler (an idea I like) make sure you have clear access to the underside of your location.. liners can be a bit of an issue, though there are ways around that.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Faster said:


> Folding props can sometimes be very weak in reverse, and some 'ungeared' props can occasionally only flip open one blade, which generates a very scary vibration in gear. By 'geared, the two blades are connected with gear teeth so that it's impossible for one blade to open.
> 
> The reason an ungeared prop can do that is that at rest or at very slow speed, if the blades 'stop' in horizontal orientation the lower blade can drop open from gravity. When put in gear the upper blade isn't necessarily prompted to open on centrifugal force leading to a very unbalanced situation. Usually a quick burst in reverse will straighten that out. Many racers have marks on their shafts and when racing rotate the shaft to ensure the blades are 'stopped and folded' vertically so that can't happen (a hanging blade is slow in really light air)
> 
> ...


Thanks, what I thought on the folders, I would rather spend the money and get the right thing. I pulled and repaired every panel on the Boat in the first year, condensation issues (minor) everywhere so I know how to get to every area and this ones clear. There are some inaccessible areas but hull damage notwithstanding I can service anything I want.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

20 year old Martec props (the so-called floppy-folders) had the half-opening problem. Modern geared folders (like Flexofold) do not and are great... good power for and aft, always open, and low drag while sailing. J/boats and Beni Firsts all come from the factory with Flexofolds.

The credit you get for a fixed prop is a fools bargain. That 3-9 sec bump is the world's BEST CASE for the loss, and than happens while reaching at hull speed in breeze. The actual loss can be over 30/sec mile in lighter conditions.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

jackdaw said:


> 20 year old Martec props (the so-called floppy-folders) had the half-opening problem. Modern geared folders (like Flexofold) do not and are great... good power for and aft, always open, and low drag while sailing. J/boats and Beni Firsts all come from the factory with Flexofolds.
> 
> The credit you get for a fixed prop is a fools bargain. That 3-9 sec bump is the world's BEST CASE for the loss, and than happens while reaching at hull speed in breeze. The actual loss can be over 30/sec mile in lighter conditions.


Amen on the allowance, nowhere near what you would need, they're just not getting any more involved in that discussion than they already are, any serious speed guy wouldn't stand for the losses especially on a lighter displacement Boat like mine. Bigger heavier more momentum driven Boats not so much loss from the fixed prop.

My concern with the geared folders would be fouling open, would I assume regular use to be the determining factor in reliability they just look like a fouling nightmare but if that's not the experience I may consider. I could do either but its more money for sails if the prop cost goes down.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Re props,

The max prop is probably one of the best of the best of any folder/feathering props. In your shoes, going to any of them will help in performance vs with a fixed 3 blade.

"MY" reasons for potentially going to a different one, as noted fuel use. BUT< if you have a 3 banger, say a Yanmar 3gm30 vs my 2 banger 2gm20, the weight of the prop may not effect you as much as my smaller motor. The other, is to go to a 3 blade for better performance in our local Salish Sea currents and chop when fighting a current/opposite wind direction. Hopefully a 3 blade kiwi would not slow as much as my 2 blade max prop. Yes I will lose some reverse bite with a kiwi, BUT again, with a 3 blade, hopefully the additional blade will make the kiwi on par with the 2 blade maxprop in reverse situations. In my case, 2 gains, one about the same of the three performance things mentioned. 
Take this again for what you paid for the advise, see where it leads you. reality is, if you see a max prop as the best all around option, go for it! 

Marty


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Moved my Traveler this week, need to trim the Butyl it was getting dark. Will try it out tonight, I'm going to like it. Ended up with nicer blocks, I had a big set of Lewmars taking up space so they went to work. May move the traveler lines out to the seat back so I can cleat them at the helm and maybe add a new purchase or cascade after trying it out for a few runs


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Looks like it belongs there! Nice job. Hope it works out well.

Marty


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

albrazzi said:


> Moved my Traveler this week, ....


That's the way to go! Looks good.

How are you/did you move your sheet/boom attachment point?


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Faster said:


> That's the way to go! Looks good.
> 
> How are you/did you move your sheet/boom attachment point?


Selden rig, it has a nice track with loops along the underside. There were three single blocks to make the purchase and take it back to the mast for cabin top service, those are idle now. Another in just the right spot for the double block I'm using for the new position, and two more farther back for the reef lines. They look sturdy enough to use just the one. I reasoned they needed three before just to route the sheet and maybe spread the stress because it was the middle of the boom. My common sense calculation is I'm fine.

They float in the track until riveted in so they don't move around but all the strain is on the loop and a heavy SS plate.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

blt2ski said:


> Looks like it belongs there! Nice job. Hope it works out well.
> 
> Marty


Yes it does, before you couldn't trim the Main and see the tells at the same time, it was behind you standing at the winch. Now you can sit, look up and brace off the opposite seat. main trimmer on the high side Jib trimmer low. The CS 30 has room for three people behind the wheel but there not much to do but steer from there.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

albrazzi said:


> Selden rig, it has a nice track with loops along the underside. There were three single blocks to make the purchase and take it back to the mast for cabin top service, those are idle now. Another in just the right spot for the double block I'm using for the new position, and two more farther back for the reef lines. They look sturdy enough to use just the one. I reasoned they needed three before just to route the sheet and maybe spread the stress because it was the middle of the boom. My common sense calculation is I'm fine.
> 
> They float in the track until riveted in so they don't move around but all the strain is on the loop and a heavy SS plate.


Have the same.. makes it real easy, doesn't it?


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Selden does make nice stuff. We tried it out last night and I can easily trim the Main for the first time, it works amazingly well compared to the old location. I never thought until I had one on cabin top how much I wouldn't like it. We do need to play around with the ratios some maybe a cascade but all In all the best rigging change I think I have ever made. And for the price of a few fasteners. I had some scrap IPE laying around for blocks with a couple of nasty splinters to show for it.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

What's the plan for the old location holes?


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Faster said:


> What's the plan for the old location holes?


Probably just patch them, everything bolts to a non cored area so it will be easy to fix. Keeping it simple for now. Reversible too in case it needs to go back.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

You could probably get some new hooks etc from Seldon, then use them as the patch, along with, you are ready to go back if you want to. Or have the option for both if you put a dodger on the cabin top!

marty


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

No holes in the boom, Marty.. we're talking about the traveler mountings


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

oops. 

BUT, one could still patch with a bolt, or some similar way so that if one wants the traveler in both places as I mentioned on page 1 or 2 about a 36s7 I saw that they had the option to do both, depending if a dodger was up cruising, or off when racing.

Marty


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

blt2ski said:


> You could probably get some new hooks etc from Seldon, then use them as the patch, along with, you are ready to go back if you want to. Or have the option for both if you put a dodger on the cabin top!
> 
> marty


Yes the deck needs to be patched or even something mounted there if I find a need. Maybe a hand hold where the hatch opening ends, but having a flat spot up there with no trip hazard for moving around putting the main bag on and such is nice. What I do need to do is pull the bails I'm not using now they rattle badly.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

On our boom the sliders/bales are drilled and tapped for set screws.. I can lock them anywhere and move when/if necessary. 'Extras' can be reserved for other jobs such as a preventer.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

blt2ski said:


> oops.
> 
> BUT, one could still patch with a bolt, or some similar way so that if one wants the traveler in both places as I mentioned on page 1 or 2 about a 36s7 I saw that they had the option to do both, depending if a dodger was up cruising, or off when racing.
> 
> Marty


I had considered leaving it where it was and just adding a new one so I would have both. 
1) New stuff is expensive, Viadana was the most reasonable, Harken most expensive.
2) It is mounted on a channel to bridge the hatch and that was nice when I didn't need to drill holes and brace the whole length just the ends like it was.
3) The permanent solution would be recessing into the bridge deck but that's pretty advanced glass work for just about anyone, especially me. At that point I would budget all the new stuff.
4) I wanted to ease into the project but do it quickly, my frustration level with the previous setup had to go, we knocked 3-4 minutes off our time just this Thursday, that's HUGE. If you're that far behind you might as well stay home. Sure there are other things that need to be sorted but this is a good start.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Faster said:


> On our boom the sliders/bales are drilled and tapped for set screws.. I can lock them anywhere and move when/if necessary. 'Extras' can be reserved for other jobs such as a preventer.


I like the set screw idea now they are screwed and riveted, so moveable but not easily. I will leave some for what you suggested we like a preventer on the DDW courses. Learned the hard way Years and years ago make sure its long enough to let the boom over. What a mess that makes if its too short!!


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Marty; looks like you're the winner here I put a cascade on today and it gives mega leverage, haven't sailed yet but I have a good feeling about it. Thanks again for the suggestions, all of them from everyone.

AL


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

May I suggest one of these too!

Marty


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

blt2ski said:


> May I suggest one of these too!
> 
> Marty


You didn't tell me you were a Harken rep:captain: I saw them they are cool. If I replace the whole thing I would consider it.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

No I am not a Harken rep..... LOL, 

Just saying another option I did that I happen to like what "I" changed on my boats setup vs the factory setup. The line control options I have done on both the main and jib tracks are nice. Amazing what sometimes 1/2" fore or aft, port/starboard does for the trim! Where as the pin types are 2-4" of movement. Along with harder to move at times. 

I went with the tall track vs std height track. I feel it was worth the few dollars difference. I did not need the tall track as the whole track is supported vs crossing an open area. It did seem to allow things to slide, and have better access etc to things. Not that one would think 1/4" in height would do much......

Future spending! that is all. LOL

Marty


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

HERE is a link to the line control genoa car conversion I did. You can also see in one of the pics, the 2' track I did on the cabin top for 110 and smaller jibs. 10-11 degree sheeting angle IIRC.

Another day and dollar change up.

marty


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Yea even without roller cars it would be nice to be able to pull them up (after luffing of course) still time lost but not as much as having to wait to tack to make an adjustment. Or forgetting to match sides when you get it set right. I Wouldn't even need any purchase just a turning block and some bungee cord to pull against. Low buck approach for sure but I need to be careful. Sometimes I don't have as much money as I think I have.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Faster said:


> What's the plan for the old location holes?


Ended up with just some 3M non skid. Keeps the water out does its job and peels right off if I need to.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Nice... gonna remove all those dodger tabs? or not? (just in case you ever get infected with Croozitus?? )


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Faster said:


> Nice... gonna remove all those dodger tabs? or not? (just in case you ever get infected with Croozitus?? )


Every time I look at them I want to snatch them out. What I may do is pull the snaps and leave the screws in rather than filling the holes, you never know when will you might need them. Maybe the NO (next owner) will want them. A little countersink and they will blend in better than now. We have a HUGE Bimini that goes on from time to time when a sun shade is needed.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Is tonight the next race? let us know how things go if so. 

Marty


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

blt2ski said:


> Is tonight the next race? let us know how things go if so.
> 
> Marty


Yes if the rain goes away. We have done one shakedown with the new two speed setup and it works great good leverages and balance. I see the value of short blocks in this set up, the more space you take up with hardware the less you have for the slow purchase. To get a foot you need three on the cascade. You just have to pay attention and keep it out as you work the coarse adjustment in. Right now I'm working out the length on this sheet so there is a stopper in the right spot because it cant be too long either.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

The new system works great. Still dragging that 5 gallon bucket underneath the Boat so we're going to be minutes behind with my handicap. Last night tried an old 110 or so with a stretched leech and it wasn't enough sail for the conditions so were still trying things and Identifying a list of things to sort out. Thanks for all the help on this one.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I started with an end on the micro about 2-3' long or so. Found it to be too short, went with one about 6' or so. This allows us to in windier conditions to use JUST this main sheet to dump and pull the main back in. Longer is in all reality, useless, as you will use the macro sheet to let out more line if going from pointing to reaching/running. The macro is better for adjusting in those conditions too. 

This is my experience, use it to help you get closer to what works for you.

Marty


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

I'm shooting for as long as I can get without the eye on the (Big) sheet, course adjustment getting into the top block with the boom at sailing height, close hauled of course. That's why the fine tune blocks need to be a short as possible which lets the fine tune sheet be longer.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Yeah, you will want to be shorter on the micro going up wind, but you WILL WANT it long enough to get in the way of the boom per say, as then you will have enough to let the whole main sail out if using it going up wind in gusty conditions. Otherwise it will be too short to douse the whole main in a strong gust. 
It is a bit of a learning curve, playing with it etc. 

I think you and I are talking the same thing here, just different wording etc.

Marty


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Yes we are, basically trimming as far as you can with the coarse (with the fine out at a preset point) I'm seeing two stopper knots 6-8" apart one limits and one to grab, so luffing or final upwind trim is done on the fine, and falling off lets the fine out first.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Checking in after a year and still the best thing I have done control wise on the Boat by far. New Main and back-stay adjuster to play with also. A LOT of adjustments to learn but I like adjustments.


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