# Sailing "big boats"



## Total Chaos (Jan 28, 2014)

How many of you out there sail boats over 50' ? Do you wish you were smaller? bigger still? We sail an Irwin 65 that has been set up for world cruising and we absolutely love the space. We don't like the additional costs for EVERYTHING, though. I am getting ready to paint the deck, house and masts and the variation in quotes is dramatic. Some yards treat us like we are a mega yacht and want to charge INSANE rates, at others the price isn't bad at all. (all relative I guess). At this point though I don't know that I could convince the family to move onto anything smaller, and I'd really hate to give up my workbench, but I can't say that I haven't imagined a few less small people on the boat and a 45'ter for the the two of us.  We do love our boat though.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I sail a 42 footer, and if I had the chance to do it without breaking me, I would go back to a smaller boat, 35-37 feet, or so.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

I go through this every year. In the spring, when I'm working on the boat and sanding the bottom and washing the decks and buying things like bottom paint, I always think "Why wasn't I happy with a 28' boat?' Then, in the middle of a 3 day cruise, or when there are 10 people aboard I think "You know, a 42' would be pretty nice. I'm sure I could handle one."

Barry


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Not in the 'over 50' range (not in boat length anyway ), but we had a 40 footer for 12 years and now down to 35.. We 'downsized' 9 years ago now, and the 35 is less expensive, easier to handle, still feels 'small and manageable' but we spend a couple of months aboard every summer in plenty of comfort. 

While every once in a while we get an itch up upgrade/renew, it's never to go bigger, just maybe newer.. and then we can't see the benefit/cost ratio that makes sense and settle back to reality...


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## Bob142 (May 27, 2012)

Agree the cost is the main downside...4 times the 25 Macgregor...but the room and comfort level..no feeling of camping...


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## SailingJackson (Jan 1, 2011)

I used to watch the reviews and walk the boat shows just sort of looking at the big ones with curiosity, not really thinking about them personally.

Now I've reached a point where I could afford a much bigger boat and I've looked at big boats more seriously. Doing so, I've realized how much it would diminish my pleasure. Owning and running a 50' boat has two options. Either you do all the work yourself, in which case it's a tremendous amount of time and effort; OR you hire out much of the work. When you hire it out you don't really get to know the boat. It's not personal. It's not "your" boat anymore. Same thing with having a captain working for you to run the boat.

I used to think I could never have a 50+ boat because the operational costs are 10x to 15x what I currently see. Now that I can almost afford to piss away an obscene amount of money I begin to realize that it's not about the money. It just would not be as much fun. It turns into a management task, coordinating crew, reviewing plans with marina staff, scheduling dock space. You cannot just show up anywhere with a 55' boat and expect to find dock space. I don't want to do planning, I just want to go sailing.

GTJ


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

I used to sail duo an heavy 60ft steel boat and that was a big task for two (I was a lot younger and foolish). I doubt I would have done it now.

The difficulty of sailing a boat between 50 and 60ft has much to do with the weight of the boat. If it is a modern light one then it will need a lot less sail area and everything will be easier. Also it has to do with rigging. A lot was learned on the last 20 years regarding rigging for big boats solo sailed and a modern rigging adapted to it will make things much more easy.

Regarding interior space more modern boats have much more interior space and you can have the space you have in your boat probably in a boat 10ft smaller.

The big problem of managing a big boat has to do with docking maneuvers. Today not only the boats are lighter (and that makes it easy) as they have computerized docking systems that work with a joystick and that give to the boat the same agility of a smaller boat.

The problem with all that is that modern boats are expensive (because they are not old)...but maintaining an old one is expensive too.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

SailingJackson said:


> ....
> I used to think I could never have a 50+ boat because the operational costs are 10x to 15x what I currently see. Now that I can almost afford to piss away an obscene amount of money I begin to realize that it's not about the money. It just would not be as much fun. It turns into a management task, coordinating crew, reviewing plans with marina staff, scheduling dock space. You cannot just show up anywhere with a 55' boat and expect to find dock space. I don't want to do planning, I just want to go sailing.
> 
> GTJ


There are many 55 ft boats that can be easily sailed by a couple even solo. I don't know were you sail but in Europe it is the opposite regarding to find a marina place: you will have more difficulty in finding the space for a 36ft than for a 55ft simply because they are not interested in having spaces for small boats that occupy proportionally more space and are not so profitable. So they have lots of space for big boats and a much smaller number of places for smaller boats. The spaces for small boats are also on the ugliest place in the marina, away from everything.

Of course those big places costs a lot of money but since you can piss a lot of it, than it would no be a problem.

Here on the last years the size of the average cruising boat that you actually see cruising increased a lot. 12 years ago I had a 36ft and that was a small cruising boat. Today I have a 41ft and that continues to be a small cruising boat Most cruising boats are between 42 and 55ft now, at least the newer ones. If you look at the several mass market brads you will see that their flagship is always increasing in size. That increase is proportional to the demand of bigger sailboats.

Regards

Paulo


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

I singlehand a 57' sloop and, for the moment, don't want to go back to a smaller boat. I really enjoy the two main advantages of the bigger boat: (a) longer LWL and commensurate faster passages and (b) the interior volume that allow me to keep all sorts of "stuff".


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

PCP said:


> .... I don't know were you sail but in Europe it is the opposite regarding to find a marina place: you will have more difficulty in finding the space for a 36ft than for a 55ft simply because they are not interested in having spaces for small boats that occupy proportionally more space and are not so profitable. ...
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


May I, humbly, point out that Europe is large, has a corresponding variation what regards "difficulty in finding space".

Best

J


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

We sail 44 ft.

For us the biggest issue is really haul-outs - and it's not about cost which is only marginally more expensive.

When in the South Pacific or any other wide cruising area (perhaps the Caribbean is the same) if you have a problem that requires the boat to come out, there will be nowhere in the islands that a 50 ft boat can be hauled out. Even at 44 ft we're marginal and many places are not equipped for this.

As for sailing 44ft, I have over the years upgraded from 26 to 33 to 36 and now to 44 and I can't say I have any issues managing the bigger size. Whilst I have no intention of going any further up in size (this boat is my last), the prospect doesn't frighten me.

Certainly I would not sacrifice the comfort of our boat for the alleged ease of handling something smaller.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Issue for us was could we sail the boat if everything breaks i.e. power winches, autopilot, pressure water, chartplotters etc. As a couple on the way over the hill 46' was just right. Two private staterooms/heads so no long term visitors unless we want. Can sail the thing regardless of failures, dedicated mechanical/work room. But still enough LWL for excellent hull speed. Think for a couple mid 40s is perfect. Still can sleep 7 without hot bunking but small enough to easily handle. Getting in adout of slips is still a horror show but we're learning.


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## Invictus (Dec 28, 2012)

Based on my unbiased experience (since I don't own a boat) I found the optimal combination of comfort, space, complexity and cost for a couple or a small group being 46'-52'. Assuming that O&M costs are affordable (and I agree that the money-pit becomes exponentially wider and deeper with the LOA) it will be difficult to downsize once one gets used to the comfort. And if one feels lonely on a big boat there is never lack of people willing to join.


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## SailingJackson (Jan 1, 2011)

PCP said:


> There are many 55 ft boats that can be easily sailed by a couple even solo.
> 
> Paulo


I know Dashew and others have been making large boats that can be run by a couple or solo, but those solutions have the problems I mentioned. The complexity of the systems, with thrusters, power winches, generators, zoned air conditioning, and much more, all add up to the fact that the boat is far less "personal". It's not just that the large boats are expensive. They either take a lot of crew (management problems) or they have labor saving systems to allow short crew. The labor saving systems leave the skipper highly subject to electromechanical failures (cannot raise the sail w/o power winch) and are too complex for a single skipper to self-maintain.

GTJ


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

SailingJackson - while everyone is welcome to an opinion, when it comes to singlehanding bigger boats, with offshore passages and equipment failures and complex systems, there are those who say it cannot be done and then there are others who just go out and do it.

My point is that there enough people doing successful big-boat shorthanded sailing to show that it can be done. While it might be imprudent, or perhaps dangerous, or inadvisable to do this, it can be done.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Jaramaz said:


> May I, humbly, point out that Europe is large, has a corresponding variation what regards "difficulty in finding space".
> 
> Best
> 
> J


You are right. I was referring to popular cruising places, particularly the Med.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

SailingJackson said:


> I know Dashew and others have been making large boats that can be run by a couple or solo, but those solutions have the problems I mentioned. The complexity of the systems, with thrusters, power winches, generators, zoned air conditioning, and much more, all add up to the fact that the boat is far less "personal". It's not just that the large boats are expensive. They either take a lot of crew (management problems) or they have labor saving systems to allow short crew. The labor saving systems leave the skipper highly subject to electromechanical failures (cannot raise the sail w/o power winch) and are too complex for a single skipper to self-maintain.
> 
> GTJ


I don't understand your point. You said that you have plenty of money so what is the problem with maintenance? When you do maintenance of systems you don't sail. Pay someone else to do the job and if the boat starts to give too much maintenance get a new one, assuming as you said you don't have money limitations. New models are always better than older ones, nicer and with better performance.

Regards

Paulo


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Zanshin said:


> My point is that there enough people doing successful big-boat shorthanded sailing to show that it can be done. While it might be imprudent, or perhaps dangerous, or inadvisable to do this, it can be done.


Well, I'd amend that slightly - to _sometimes... by some people..._ 

Stanley Paris originally planned to go without any electric winches on KIWI SPIRIT... Then, after she was launched, they figured out he was unable to raise the mainsail without one, so it was added...

One of the major contributors to the failure of his voyage, was the destruction of one of his headstay furlers after wrapping one of his spinnaker halyards at the upper swivel... The evidence would appear to indicate that he probably left his finger on that winch button just a bit too long...


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## Total Chaos (Jan 28, 2014)

First I must say that I really enjoy working on my boat its kind of my zen... I love to sail, but to be fair I enjoy fiddling with my boat almost as much. We do 90% of all our maintenance, even with the more complex systems, none of it is rocket science, though some of the electrical can feel like it at times. The only thing I won't do is the exterior paint work, not because I am incapable, I choose not to. As to the safety of sailing the larger boat- the Ketch rig helps somewhat, the all in boom furling is additional help, and we have significant redundancy in the sail handling systems. There are five electric winches and back up, upon back up. I suppose it all could fail, but I'm thinking that is unlikely. The setup to single hand this boat is not entirely complex, but is not by any stretch of the imagination an inexpensive endeavor to set up. The boat can be sailed from the cockpit only with no need to go forward. The boom furlers allow the sails to be dropped easily in an emergency if there is a jam. I have yet to have a problem with the furlers. Yes we have a thruster, which makes docking relatively easy, but we can and have done it without the thruster. 

Now to the issue of space, I get that a lot of you are sailing couples, we are as well, but my guess is not all of you sail with five additional small sailors aboard. We have five kids on board full time, and two of them teenage boys. I think on a forty foot boat we might have to drag the kids behind in the dingy some days. LOL... Anyway that makes seven people on board full time. Five of us scuba dive, we have an air compressor on board and all our gear. Space is not an insignificant factor for us, and the alternatives have positives and some big negatives for our not so small crew.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

TC - most impressive . Yes you truly need the space. People forget sometimes we all need some quite time ideally behind a closed door or up on the fore peak by yourself. With teens I expect that's even more apparent.
Other issue is at about mid forties wind vane self steering becomes less effective. Boat is moving faster and displacement greater. Then there is even more dependency on having electricity. At mid forties when the lights go off you can still sail the boat.raise,reef and strike. 
People forget cruising isn't day sailing. Usually the main goes up and stays up a good part of the time. Even motoring if there is any wind you power sail when you can. Been debating about hydrovane v. second A.P. Design of stern makes any servo pendulum less appealing. And ease of having emergency rudder sounds nice with simplicity of hydro vane. ? Do you have backup if rudder fails.


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## Total Chaos (Jan 28, 2014)

We have complete redundancy in the steering system, two complete systems in fact, but the rudder- well no... I've thought about it some though, we have a vertical transom so I imagine some sort of track and a drop in rudder, at some point somewhere I've seen something like this. We would have a problem with the swim platform though. Something to think about more though rudder failure is a scary thing to think about. There is always the sea anchor, the rig balances well so there are options if I had the time and depending on the sea state. I have no idea whether I could get her to sail up wind at all with no rudder. Our rudder has been reinforced and updated, but that doesn't mean a heavy grounding couldn't set up such a situation. Love to hear thoughts on this topic.


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

I made my first, and only, open water crossing on a Catalina 30 from San Pedro, Belize to Houston, Texas. I thought that I had hit the big time gaining passage on such a large and provisioned boat, and there were four of us! Honestly, even if I had Bill Gates' money, I can't see owning anything bigger than 40', unless I was a charter for hire.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Prior sisterships have used dropped blade and tiller to allow inclusion in blue water races or hydro vanes with emergency rudder add on. Big selling point of hydro vanes is they can be mounted off center. When coastal take rudder and vane off. Having the hydro vane deployed makes backing down and slow speed maneuvers more difficult from what I understand. Some sisterships have gone with monitors with emergency rudder add on. Don't see how that would work for me due to configuration of existing hard dodger/ davits etc.
May be forced to go the 2 autopilot and auxiliary emergency rudder route.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Our boat is really our summer home and we sail her nearly every weekend for 6 months per year. Having enough room and amenities to be comfortable is important to us. We also have guests nearly every weekend and they're not always family or close enough friends that we would be comfortable camping on top of each other.

Our boat absolutely sails like a dream. Easily handled by 2 and, while I've never taken her off he dock alone, I have effectively sailed her solo with my wife down below many times. Essentially everything is in the cockpit.

Certainly, the larger boats get your attention with every maintenance bill. I fully agree with the comment above that we are always met with a huge smile from maintenance yards. They are absolutely accustom to seeing dollar signs, when they see a bigger boat. Our bills are going to be bigger than a smaller boat, but they can really reach for it, just to see if you'll pay. Let's face it, there are some uber-rich owners that just want it perfect at any moment and do pay for that kind of attention. I manage my own maintenance, doing what I can and contracting out what I can't or don't have time for.

The one thing my wife often complains about is the size of the fenders and dealing with them. We use 12" x 36" fenders. Six of them. You would too, if you've ever had a bad storm destroy a 30k paint job. From time to time, I think about buying inflatable mega-fend fenders just to stop the complaining, but that would be $3,000 in fenders!! 

We sometimes dream of moving up, but certainly don't need to. Who knows, maybe in retirement, if things go really, really well between now and then. But the idea of less expensive, easier, etc, can't escape one's thinking either. If it were just the two of us, no guests, we could certainly be comfortable in something smaller.

Then we rented a 36 foot Bavaria for just the two of us in the BVI last winter. Fenders the size of my wrist!  While there was plenty of room for two people, it drove us nuts. Boat speed, galley storage, having to climb around the helm wheel or having to remove it at each anchorage, and on and on. I absolutely could not wait to get back to the helm of our boat!! It was great therapy.

The reason we know we have the right boat for us, is we are always comparing every other boat we are on to it. We've toured similar sized Oysters, Hylas, etc and, while acknowledging their quality, still prefer many of the features of ours over them.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I think it is very dependent on the boat. I'm very happy with our 53'er and I really don't think we 'd be happier with a smaller boat, nor do we really need a bigger one.
The two main points we find great about the 50'er is space and comfort. This is our home; everything we own is aboard and we have plenty of room to store it all away. We have a guest cabin with head, and a smaller cabin used for storage, which enables us to take advantage of picking up large quantities of items like milk, tp, paper towels, canned goods, etc. when they are cheapest and going for months without having to pay the outrageous prices that some islands charge. For instance, my mate loves milk, but it can be upwards of US$2.00 a quart for UHT milk in a lot of places; in Martinique it's less than a buck a liter. We can buy ten cases at a time, saving hugely.
Every time we cross a channel, we are reminded that the size and weight of our boat provides us with a drier, faster and much more comfortable trip than the smaller boats we see around us. Of course, a hundred footer would do that even better, but we probably wouldn't be sailing a hundred footer with just two of us, and our time alone together is very important to us. With all roller furling, she is the easiest boat I've ever sailed; we sail off and onto our anchor almost every trip. At anchor, we are definitely more comfortable than a smaller boat; it is nice to be able to drop the board and have a 10' draft in a rolly anchorage.
When I was single handing her, she was quite obedient powering into any dock. Again, with the roller furling; sailing was a breeze.
Of course, there is maintenance to do, but does the refer unit on a 42'er require less maintenance than one on a 53'er? Sure, haul outs cost more, as does the paint required, etc. but it's a small trade off for the comfort and space a 50' boat can provide.


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

I sail a 36' boat and with a reverse transom it's really more like a 34' boat. While I have thought of getting something a little larger and heavier for long distance cruising, I'm not ready to cut the docklines yet and not convinced we need a bigger boat. Yet. 
So, 40' might be really great to have but I also know I DON'T want 50' and bigger. I don't want to have to rely on complex systems, electric winches for everything, and above all I don't want to feel like I'm tending to a computerized ship. Big boats just don't seem to have that intimate interface that mid sized boats (and especially dinghys) have. Having sailed on BIG boats, most recently TransAtl. on a 65' Oyster, it didn't feel like sailing. Comfy and lots of toys to play w/ but I felt somewhat removed from the experience of SAILING.

I really like the fact that I can take my boat out by myself in most conditions that one would want to go sailing and not have to scrounge up crew if the Admiral is working. And we went cruising for 9 days this fall and never felt cramped. Maybe if we had to go for a month w/o replenishing I'd feel different but for now it's fine.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

While there are not too many sailboats here in Atlantic City (Some mega power yachts though) I Have noticed that the "sweet spot" for use seems to be between 28 and 40 feet.

Smaller than that, and people only go out on bright sunny days.. larger than that and it is a major undertaking to go out.. so the 28 to 40 footers seem to go out the most.

My personal opinion is that 30 to 35 feet is the perfect compromise between usable space and cheaper running, hauling, and mooring costs.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Sailing the boat is not the problem. Once out there one person should not have issue with anything <50'. Rather it's the hard edges. Nice to have someone catch a line or snag a mooring or see the side you can't at the wheel or watch for coral heads or dead heads. Once it's too big to handle without power, or too big that you need two to stand watch for me it's too big. Short of that bigger is better,more comfy,safer,faster,and more leading to greater independence. Can wait to get water,fuel, food. Can expect a greater"days work" so more choices. Difference in quality of life in our psc34 and the current boat is huge. Both are great boats but simple things like having the room to carry more pots/pans and having to forgo the extreme space discipline a small boat requires makes the bride smile.when she smiles life is good.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I helped crew a 90 footer once, for a week. Once I saw what 90 foot prices were, for everything, I quit dreaming of having one.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I would not want a boat that required crew.


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## MikeJohns (Apr 23, 2008)

I like big boats.
We moved to the larger boat for passage making because it's much more self sufficient for remote areas and more importantly we can accommodate crew. A group of People aboard make the passages much more interesting (providing you are sociable). In heavy weather it's far less tiring if you get a decent sleep between watches. A bigger boat is also more comfortable in a seaway. 
Also when coastal cruising at your destination you always have some who happy to stay onboard when everyone else wants to go ashore. People especially women also appreciate decent showers and private heads in places comfortably usable at sea. So you keep good crew if you want them.

My 65 footer ( Approx 40 ton ) has a simple ketch rig with no furlers, storm sails are the working sails reefed and everything self tacking except the main. Everything is dropped and hoisted and stores on booms or in bags along the rails. 

I had a 57 footer for a while but it was cutter rigged and too hard to handle despite electric furlers and winches. The ketch I have now is very easy to sail in all weathers and has no furlers and simple winches. I've had shredded sails and a large boat knocked down trying to furl them in a sudden front hitting us unexpectedly. 
I find it's easier, quicker and safer to run and release the halyard and drag the sail down and lash it to the rail.

Sometimes We don't even touch the sails for days and the autopilot steers, everyone cooks, eats talks, learns each others languages and plays games music and even paints pictures. Then the passages are actually really fun and memorable. And when you make port the crew can stay aboard.

We have 6 good sea berths another 6 in fairer weather or cruising rather than passage making ( a queen sized double and 4 bunks up fwd) all in 4 separate sleeping cabins. In fair weather during the day people are usually on the aft deck and the deck space is another plus for big boats ! 

I also have a 45 footer performance cruiser I sail single handed. It's fun but it has a pokey head a shower in the cockpit and I get seasick on it in heavy weather. I don't get a twinge of mal-de-mare on the bigger boat even in real survival weather.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MikeJohns said:


> ..
> 
> My 65 footer ( Approx 40 ton ) has a simple ketch rig with no furlers, storm sails are the working sails reefed and everything self tacking except the main. Everything is dropped and hoisted and stores on booms or in bags along the rails.
> ....


You mean not even furlers for the forward sails (Genoa), Code 0, Geenaker?
Do you sail that one alone? I believe this discussion had to do with a big boat that could be sailed alone or with a little help from the wife.



MikeJohns said:


> I also have a 45 footer performance cruiser I sail single handed.


Can you tell of what boat you are talking about? I am sure it is not your case but some talk about what were 20 or 30 years ago performance cruisers as if they could still be considered performance cruisers when in fact their performances and weight are now similar to the one of a contemporary cruiser. What people call a performance cruiser is not always the same. Just to understand better of what you are talking about.

Regards

Paulo


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## MikeJohns (Apr 23, 2008)

PCP said:


> You mean not even furlers for the forward sails (Genoa), Code 0, Geenaker?
> Do you sail that one alone? I believe this discussion had to do with a big boat that could be sailed alone or with a little help from the wife.
> 
> Can you tell of what boat you are talking about? I am sure it is not your case but some talk about what were 20 or 30 years ago performance cruisers as if they could still be considered performance cruisers when in fact their performances and weight are now similar to the one of a contemporary cruiser. What people call a performance cruiser is not always the same. Just to understand better of what you are talking about.
> ...


Paulo

Adams 45 is the design of the 45 foot performance cruiser. It's very easy for me to sail alone.

Yes on the 65 footer ( Length on Deck) I have no furlers for any sail. Furlers are nice and easy but they add weight aloft, a lot of windage and they take time to furl on a big boat. I find it safer and quicker to drop the whole sail. I wouldn't go back to furlers again I had too many problems and even shredded sails and boats knocked down due to delays getting sail in with furlers.

In clement weather there is no problem sailing a big boat alone for shorter legs, but it's nice to have a self tacking autopilot. Alone you are always on watch in any sized boat which is a limitation.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MikeJohns said:


> Paulo
> 
> Adams 45 is the design of the 45 foot performance cruiser. It's very easy for me to sail alone.
> 
> ...


I can find lots of different boats under the designation of Adams 45, none I would call a performance cruiser. Even some steel ones.

It is something like this?:

Adams 45 Yacht for sale in Marmong Point NSW | Adams 45 Yacht

Regards

Paulo


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## MikeJohns (Apr 23, 2008)

Paulo
Yes similar boat but mines 12.5 tons laden. I'd put that in the performance cruiser bracket. It sails at 8 knots pretty easily with the lee rail well out of the water. A bit light for long distance cruising and I get seasick on it !

But lets talk about big boats  My 65 footer I have had 4 years now and had no problem adjusting to the size. I love it. 

Whats the largest you have skippered, how did you get on ?


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## Total Chaos (Jan 28, 2014)

Paulo,
What is the make and model of your 65, curious. I am 65 on the deck as well and I love the deck unless it's time to wash it.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

IMHO, the size of the sails is a factor as much as the size of the boat. Our 50 footer does not have the tall mast, which I believe makes her easier to sail solo. I believe the poster with the ketch is seeing a similar effect with managable sails even though the boat is big.

We don't have any electric winches or in mast furling. Rather, we have a stackpack with lazy jacks. With nice size manual winches, sail handling is easy enough. I don't think I'd want to sail solo without the lazy jacks. And the stack pack means a simple zip-up protects the sail from UV.

We have an electric autopilot. If we were to do long distance cruising we'd want to have spare parts for it.

We have 4 kids, the oldest is now 6'3". The room on our 50 is good to have. I don't have to worry about storage or weight. We've had empty storage spots. (I finally put beer in one of them.) Our tankage lets us go for weeks without refilling our water tanks. We can hold a bigger battery bank and have more solar panels too. So there's no rationing of electricity.

As an electrical engineer, the electrical systems come easily to me. So it was a natural progression to add an inverter for the microwave, stanchion lights, long range wifi and other things. I read-up on refrigeration systems and with some advice from Cleave at SeaFrost, I put in our electrical refrigeration/freezer. Yes, I do much of the work. I thoroughly enjoy it. Maybe because I have a desk job, but it gets me outside and gets me some exercise. 

Haven't done any passages yet, but the bigger boat makes for a different experience in the weather I've seen. What was described as a rough day by someone on a Catalina 37, was a beautiful day sail on our boat. On one trip from Block Island to Montauk, we actually played Parcheesi in the cockpit while motor sailing along with a lowered traveller. None of the little game peices fell over. And with some competitive kids, it was a raucously good time.

All of the above is to say that I like the size of our boat, can (and often do) sail solo, and don't feel any desire to go smaller.

Not sure about a bigger boat, since it would likely mean fewer day sails. Perhaps we all are comfortable with what we have and see bigger as meaning less sailing. It would be nice to have a raised saloon, that raised area midships that bigger boats have. You know, where you can eat breakfast inside and look out over the anchorage, or stand at the helm inside. If we ever got a bigger boat, that would probably be what led me to get it.

When soloing, I think the time it takes to get to the bow is a factor, for when anchoring, docking, or grabbing a mooring. If you are quick on your feet, you'll get "up there" quicker and you'll be more comfortable with a bigger-sized boat.

Good thread.

Regards,
Brad


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Think it's very different depending on the detailed specifics of the boat, the owners and the landside life of the owners. We looked at bigger and smaller boats. Saw that 90% of time the boat would be in effect singled. Either it would be me and the bride so then watch and watch. Or us plus inexperienced crew meaning I would need to be up and need to run the boat myself pushing crew aside if things got unsafe. Also things break, batteries fail, shyte happens. Our physical capabilities are not what they once were. Therefore, limiting factor was size of the main I could raise without power. If the windlass goes it will be painful.
Other problem was knowledge boat would be on slips for its first two years due to landside issues and they charge by the foot.
Split rigs are a joy but not as weatherly, more to maintain with more expense and complexity. Nothing like jib and jigger until you have two sticks to maintain.
Size is wonderful but I've had my scary times with centerboards and hate maintaining them so wanted a fixed keel. Then size means more draft and the first two years are eastern US seaboard/Bahamas so decided no more then 6.5'.
Seems as waterfront gets exponentially more expensive finger piers get closer and closer together. Even some fuel docks have no margin for error. As size goes up the in/out of harbors becomes a white knuckle affair for me. Prior poster mentioned boats not going out. Personally at my level of skill I have no issue singling my boat in any weather but still need a hand ( unskilled newbie is fine) to be a line handler going in and out. When its windy been known to anchor, launch the dinghy, pick up anybody to handle lines and then go in. Think with just a bit of fore thought any body can sail a big boat. I've sailed 86' without issue. Hydraulics are wonderful. But I think it's beyond my skill set to deal with anything >50-55' near the hard edges. If your only swinging on a mooring or at anchor size is a non issue and bigger is better. If you cruise in a deep water area size is no issue. But for most of us either due to finances, physical capabilities, absence of crew being a double handed couple or cruising region 40-50' makes a lot sense.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

30 feet and 9,000lbs (and upwards) is where it's at, for single-handers.

Smaller loads, less expensive to equip and maintain. Less expensive slips in marinas, and can squeeze into tight or semi-shallow anchorages depending on draft. Easier to dock, solo. Easier to DIY maintain.

I've sailed larger boats, and even with all of the lines led aft and set up for singlehanding, I felt that they would be a real handful if the weather ever got up. There is one large boat that I'd take on, solo...but I won't name her.

I'm a fairly solitary creature, so I rarely ever entertain more than 1-3 passengers. I have a head, a galley and music onboard, so I don't feel like I'm camping.

25 feet is too small. 35 feet would be my absolute max, and I probably wouldn't like it as much as 30. There are a slew of solid 30 foot, Good Old Boats out there:

Tartan
Catalina
Pearson
Ericson
Sabre
S2 9.1

I have a friend who's circumnavigated. He says that 30 years ago, people circumnavigated on 30 footers. Now, people will tell you that 30 feet isn't suitable to cross the Chesapeake Bay.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

I can't imagine having a boat that I felt was too big to take out alone for a sail.

I can't count the number of times I've squeezed in a few hours of sailing, alone, when I sneak off from work, or wife and son have another engagement.

The cut-off point for "too big to take out alone" will vary (widely) from person to person and boat to boat, but that would be an absolute deal breaker for me on any boat.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MikeJohns said:


> Paulo
> Yes similar boat but mines 12.5 tons laden. I'd put that in the performance cruiser bracket. It sails at 8 knots pretty easily with the lee rail well out of the water. A bit light for long distance cruising and I get seasick on it !
> 
> But lets talk about big boats  My 65 footer I have had 4 years now and had no problem adjusting to the size. I love it.
> ...


I have already said so. Duo crew on a 60ft steel heavy height also without furlers. It was a handful but mostly because we only sailed that one with lots of wind (over F7). With less we prefer to sail on my 24 ft traditional sailboat. The skipper was Flemish and he got quite a reputation among fisherman. We sailed from a fishing harbor and on the conditions we sailed the boat, on the big waves of the Portuguese west coast, we were far faster than the big fishing boats, even with big engines. That Flemish family was living on our home port (aboard) and we become friends.

The problem was that boat was only fun and fast to sail on those conditions. The boat sailed very poorly with medium to weak winds.

Solo sailing the biggest I sailed was a 43ft boat. Less trouble to sail than my 41ft but less fun. I guess that you would be calling that 43ft a performance cruiser. Well my boat is easy if I reef it. I still go fast but that's not as fun as catching the other boats and be entertained taking care of sailing. Not difficult with some experience.

I don't get seasick and the only time I have been close was on the steel big one while cooking with an incredible bad smell of rotten fish. The sea was not that bad but I was not the only one that start to be seasick while trying to cook on those conditions.

Regards

Paulo


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

What folks who advocate for small boats seem to have difficulty accepting is there is a fundamental difference in attitude in different groups of sailors. Those who are liveaboards with family appreciate all the space they can get. Those who are or intend to cross oceans appreciate the increased safety and days work of a big boat. Depending on where you are in life having the above issues addressed at some point becomes more important than the ease of daysailing. I've taken thousands of daysails and enjoyed each one. Some of the best were by myself but I've never crossed the Atlantic and it's on the bucket list. To be so in touch with your boat through a tiller and be able to time a tack so well you just pull on the sheets not needing a winch handle makes me smile. But being off the shelf for days, beating out a weather window, getting to a new cruising ground never gets old. There's not a "better". But there is a "better" for a given use. Bigger is better for liveaboard (if not static in one spot) and blue water. Think it hard to argue otherwise. In my opinion as big as you can handle without powered assistance is best.


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## Total Chaos (Jan 28, 2014)

Reading the above posts... Day sailing doesn't really apply to us, we weren't looking for a boat that we could go sail a few hours after work. We were looking for a home to sail in the trades for long term. A home on the water that happens to save us money on fuel by sailing. Don't get me wrong we love to sail, but we love to explore even more. I have no issue what so ever turning on my motor and heading into the wind. 

We have 620 gallons of fuel and just under 1000 gallons of water with a large water maker. We can go a very long way under power alone if need be. Storage is massive... we can walk around inside the lazzarette. There are advantage and disadvantages and who knows after kids are gone we may very well down size to a 40ish foot boat, then again maybe not. We like guests and I am not against the idea of even taking paying guests later on down the road. We've had 18 people on board, granted many were small people, but never felt squished. 

I can say this much...our boat really does feel like a home... I have a workbench/ laundry room and garage. In fact this boat is our home, we don't have another.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

caberg said:


> I can't imagine having a boat that I felt was too big to take out alone for a sail.
> 
> I can't count the number of times I've squeezed in a few hours of sailing, alone, when I sneak off from work, or wife and son have another engagement.
> 
> The cut-off point for "too big to take out alone" will vary (widely) from person to person and boat to boat, but that would be an absolute deal breaker for me on any boat.


Yeah, that's pretty much my take on it, as well...

Boats beyond the size that I'm able or comfortable doing much of anything that needs to routinely be done by myself, well... they simply scare me...

Take something as simple as taking the sails off the boat... Whenever I know I won't be sailing my boat for awhile (prepping for a major storm, or at the beginning of the winter), I take the sails off the boat... getting the #1 genoa, or the main, off the boat unassisted on some of the larger boats I've delivered would be _EXTREMELY_ difficult, or at least sufficiently so that I'd be tempted to not bother, and leave them bent on... Poor practice, and for a piss-poor reason...

I've been lucky, I suppose... I've been blessed with the opportunity to sail plenty of nice big boats... Always with fingers crossed that nothing vital breaks, and always more firmly convinced that I would never, _EVER_ want to own anything much beyond 40-42 feet, or 25,000 lbs. displacement... Others' mileage will vary, naturally...

But 52-footers with 80' carbon spars, start to scare me when the breeze starts to pipe up... And, just as importantly, they frighten the girl I sail with, from time to time...


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## Total Chaos (Jan 28, 2014)

Re-reading my post. I think I kind of sound like my way is the better way and that's just not true, It works well for us, we don't have a problem handling our sails, she doesn't scare us most of the time and at achor, or on a mooring, or in a slip, ( which is 85% of the time we are "cruising" this boat makes a good home for us. I think if we weren't sailing in the trades, and were say in the Northern lattitudes we would probably be on a different boat and it might not even have sails... Oh I will say that docking was a white knuckled experience the first year and docking in significant wind requires help every time. If the weather is nice I can do it myself without the bow thruster- if there is any wind, there is no way I could do it without at least one line handler, preferably half a dozen.


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## MikeJohns (Apr 23, 2008)

Bene505 said:


> IMHO, the size of the sails is a factor as much as the size of the boat. Our 50 footer does not have the tall mast, which I believe makes her easier to sail solo. I believe the poster with the ketch is seeing a similar effect with managable sails even though the boat is big.
> 
> We don't have any electric winches or in mast furling. Rather, we have a stackpack with lazy jacks. With nice size manual winches, sail handling is easy enough. I don't think I'd want to sail solo without the lazy jacks. And the stack pack means a simple zip-up protects the sail from UV.
> 
> ...


The Ketch is a much easier rig to an equivalent area cutter rigged sloop. I can drag around and hank on every sail on my 65' ketch that I couldn't on my 57 sloop. But ketches perform better on the wind the closer they get to an equal masted schooner and with some separation between the mainsail clew and the mizzen tack.

I wonder how many people who are scared of the idea of a large boat would change their opinion if they actually experienced the benefits ? I changed my view decades ago just after one 5 day passage on a 70 footer, compared with my 40 footer at the time it was bliss.
Since then I have had 45' then 57' then 45' again and now 65'

A lot of people are scared of boats that they are unable to manhandle, but larger boats you just adopt different techniques. I find there isn't much difference between my the 45 footer or the 65 footer except you can't just push the 65 off a dockside if the wind is pressing you on, then you need to know how to spring the bow out or use a bow thruster if fitted.

I'm just taking my large thruster out as we just don't use it and I'm shedding weight ( both entrained water and the weight of the gear) and gaining a bit of buoyancy by reclaiming the tunnel. So I apparently don't have a problem handling the boat. I see people thrashing the water with bow thrusters and still coming to grief when a little seamanship would have made life so easy !

Handling the boat shore-side just takes a bit more thought and you proceed with care and a bit of planning it's more small ship handling than small boat handling. But if you keep your speed down the engine stops you just as promptly as with a small boat (providing you have a decent prop installation).

At sea in heavy weather the big boat is easier to work sails, the decks are much more stable, drier and moving around is easier as you can keep your feet. Spreading the sail area over two or more masts is very sensible. I was never happy with my 57 foot sloop It was anxiety inducing in heavy weather. I'm Very happy with the ketch rig on a 65 footer and I would never go back to a large sloop rigged boat now. Light air sails are also fun on a ketch.

I really like the mizzen staysail and I've seen equal masted staysail schooners with 3 masts that were quite easy to sail.

Also I think lazyjacks are mandatory offshore. I don't like going offshore without lazyjacks in a boat over 40 feet unless it has a furling main.


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## Total Chaos (Jan 28, 2014)

Docking has always been the "stress factor" for us, or rather slipping... it seems we always have to fit a 17'2" wide boat into an 18' wide slot between two other boats. I am sure we could manage without the thruster, but I wouldn't want to manage that without a couple hands to help catch us every time. When you're moving around 80,000 pounds you really don't want to bump into anyone. I use spring lines when I'm short handed and Im sure in reality I could manage if I really had to. That said we always been offered help at every marine we've been to. People see the boat coming in and are always glad to help, often time the harbor will call us up and as us if we need line handlers or any assistance. Just never had any real problem. Of


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## sailorbill1 (Feb 6, 2014)

Iv owned and sailed yachts from 25-78ft.Mostly single handed, funny thing is a big boat is easer to sail(don't have to reef until 20 odd knots)then ease out the main or roll up the furler.Easer motion,more speed,dryer boat.Once a year id go to the scouts den and take 20 odd and dads out for a days sail on the harbour, next day supply them with sand paper,paint,varnish,pies and coke, hay presto!


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Total Chaos said:


> Reading the above posts... Day sailing doesn't really apply to us, we weren't looking for a boat that we could go sail a few hours after work. We were looking for a home to sail in the trades for long term. A home on the water that happens to save us money on fuel by sailing. Don't get me wrong we love to sail, but we love to explore even more. I have no issue what so ever turning on my motor and heading into the wind.


Well, to clarify, you did not direct the initial post at this limited group of boat owners.



> How many of you out there sail boats over 50' ? Do you wish you were smaller? bigger still?


Although, I am not sure it will change the general answer for most folks. There are many people cruising around the world on "small" boats (under 40 feet). And, on the "small" boat these folks are generally still going to get in and out of anchorages and marinas more quickly and with more ease.

I think the word "scared" of a big boat is a bit misconstrued. It's not so much fear, I would think, as it is being not naive about what can potentially go wrong. More times than not, the $hit hits the fan _not_ when you are in the middle of an ocean riding out a gale, but when your prop fouls on a lee shore, or when anchoring, or when any number of things happen in tight spots.

For anyone who says they can handle a 60-70 foot boat easier than a 30-40 foot boat, I'm just not sure what to say to that. My personal experience solo sailing ranges from dinghys to a 40 footer, and I currently sail a 26' boat with plans to be in a mid-30 foot boat. So, I guess I can't really speak to the 60-70 foot range, but from all the talk above about bow thrusters and extra dock hands.... no thanks!


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

How can you comment on sailing a larger boat when you haven't?



caberg said:


> For anyone who says they can handle a 60-70 foot boat easier than a 30-40 foot boat, I'm just not sure what to say to that. My personal experience solo sailing ranges from dinghys to a 40 footer


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

To people currently sailing a 30' boat a 40' one is big. My first boat was 39' and after 2 years I replaced it with a 43' boat, it seemed HUGE at the time but was easier to sail.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> How can you comment on sailing a larger boat when you haven't?


I really did not.



caberg said:


> For anyone who says they can handle a 60-70 foot boat easier than a 30-40 foot boat, *I'm just not sure what to say to that.* My personal experience solo sailing ranges from dinghys to a 40 footer, and I currently sail a 26' boat with plans to be in a mid-30 foot boat. So, *I guess I can't really speak to the 60-70 foot range*, but from all the talk above about bow thrusters and extra dock hands.... no thanks!


However, not sure I need to solo a 70 footer to know that it's more difficult to get in and out of the dock than on a 30 footer....


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## ctl411 (Feb 15, 2009)

I singlehand my 50 foot ketch and aside from docking not much different from my old 37 foot cutter.
Also too the more expensive split rigs yes more of everything but at smaller sizes which offsets some of the cost.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Most of us on 50'+ boats are probably not day sailors, but liveaboards, and day sailing was not our intent when purchasing our boats.
When I circumnavigated in the 70's, it was generally accepted that 42' was the biggest boat an experienced sailor could reasonably handle alone, in any conditions, should your crew become incapacitated. But we didn't have roller furling, cockpit led halyards, selftailing winches and stack packs, or even GPS, so that was a pretty realistic size.
As technical innovations improved, larger boats became more easily managed by smaller crews, and it became possible to have more comfort, space, speed and safety, to the ridiculous point of Alan Colas's 236' Club Med, which he single handed. I never would have considered a 53' ketch as a single handed cruising boat in the 70's, but this one is actually easier to sail than any other boat I have ever sailed, single handed or with crew. 
One point which I'd like to mention about 50'+ boats as a choice for the modern day cruisers, is your women. Those of you who desire to retire to the cruising life with your one true love, or ever expect to have a sailing partner for your adventures that has not been raised to the sailing life, can be quite certain that very few women can easily make the change from a house to a tiny boat, comfortably. Hot showers, a reasonably usable galley and some creature comforts can go a long way to a successful transition.
I've met very few women over 50 who'd happily bathe on deck with a sun shower, for their whole cruising life. That extra 8' to 10' of boat length can make a huge difference to the livability of a boat for a woman and the length of time she will remain aboard.
A bigger boat is actually easier to handle in most docking situations; things happen slower and you have more time to make decisions. If you can handle a 30 footer under any conditions, you'll be able to handle a much heavier 50 footer without any problems, once you get used to the extra few feet of boat. Don't sell yourself short; if you can handle one boat, you can handle any boat, once you get used to the peculiarities of that boat.


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## Sail444 (Feb 6, 2014)

I have sailed boats from 24 feet (J24) throught 62 feet (Beneteau CNB) since 1978.

In my view, the ideal size of cruising vessel for a couple is between 36 feet to 44 feet, more or less. 

Here is the thing about "big" boats:

1) The difference in size between a 62’ and a 42’ boat is much more than these numbers indicate, as the weight, sail areas and forces required to maneuver go up by the power of two, or even of three. Bigger crew needed, especially if things get gnarly out there.

2) The cost materials/equipment/parts is significantly higher. Usually, ther is more electronics, equipment on-board to service/replace. Berthing cost is higher. Usually on big boats, more electrics such as electric furler, winches mean more battery power needs. Maintenance/service costs per hour should be about same but it takes longer to paint the hull, etc.

3) A big boat owner is susceptible to the "rich mega yacht owner" syndrome, as you mentioned. 

Fair Winds,
Steve Szirom


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Having owned, raced and cruised boats from 12 foot to 60 foot I would not want to go back to a 40 footer for cruising. I like the space, speed and load carrying of a 60 footer. Yes it's more expensive but it is a much easier boat to sail in all weather compared to a 40 footer.

YMMV


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MikeJohns said:


> The Ketch is a much easier rig to an equivalent area cutter rigged sloop. I can drag around and hank on every sail on my 65' ketch that I couldn't on my 57 sloop. But ketches perform better on the wind the closer they get to an equal masted schooner and with some separation between the mainsail clew and the mizzen tack.
> .....


It has that advantage but also the disadvantage of a more complex rig with more lines and with the need to go out of the cockpit to take care of the sails.

A modern tendency that I start to see used on several modern designs is a relatively slow mainsail, with the mast pulled back and three staysails on furlers: A big one, Code 0 or asymmetric spinnaker, a mid sized genoa and a jib.

The jib is almost central regarding the boat length and that means that the boat can be sailed defectively under Jib alone in really high winds and the smallish main with three or four reefs makes its use easy.

Regarding furlers there are many qualities and types but the ones that are designed for extreme conditions have been tried extensively in incredibly bad conditions. their bigger problem is to be expensive and I agree, it is not what you find on the typical cruising boat.

This sail configuration was been developed in solo Open 60's and his now passing to the big cruisers, were easiness is as important as in solo racing even if the sails have less then half the size

Regards

Paulo


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Sail444 said:


> In my view, the ideal size of cruising vessel for a couple is between 36 feet to 44 feet, more or less.


I think cruiser age factors in. I now feel that 46-48' is the perfect size. That is the size when you can get good tankage and a centreline berth so you and your partner aren't crawling over each at night to go pee. After 46-48' you just get more space to fill up or allow to be occupied by guests.


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## MikeJohns (Apr 23, 2008)

capta said:


> ......................... very few women over 50 who'd happily bathe on deck ............. That extra 8' to 10' of boat length can make a huge difference to the livability of a boat for a woman and the length of time she will remain aboard.


 And it's nice for the men too, not only to have the 'significant other' aboard on passages but to have the creature comforts of home for our own use 

Also women are more prone to mal de mare than men are, and a bigger boat has a much easier motion. My wife doesn't get sick in gales any more on our larger boat. I have known many couples give up the distance cruising dream because she finds the motion too miserable to tolerate.

To try and put figures to this, generally for similar styles of boats in the same conditions and looking at roll pitch and yaw accelerations a 60 footer will be 5 times more tolerable than a 40 footer or 1/5 the motion. Even a factor of 2 is significant. That easier motion also makes the deck a much safer place to be in rough weather.

Passages can become not only tolerable but can even be fun rather than just the miserable existence out there between ports of call.



capta said:


> A bigger boat is actually easier to handle in most docking situations; things happen slower and you have more time to make decisions. If you can handle a 30 footer under any conditions, you'll be able to handle a much heavier 50 footer without any problems, once you get used to the extra few feet of boat. Don't sell yourself short; if you can handle one boat, you can handle any boat, once you get used to the peculiarities of that boat.


Agree, boat handling is easier, not harder. When coming alongside a dock or picking up a mooring, the bigger boat stays on station much longer and gives you a lot more time to pick up/make fast the line(s).

If you read the older sailing books late 1800's through to the 1950's people often circumnavigated short handed in very heavy displacement sailboats well over 50 feet without problems. These days we have the huge benefits of all the technology they didn't have. We can use the same seamanship techniques that they necessarily had to use, unfortunately a lot of boaters today are unaware of many of the techniques that make big boat handling easier.

An example mentioned before would be maneuvering using a midships spring line, many smaller boat sailors don't even have anywhere they could attach one and don't understand how it's used, so they miss out on understanding how a much larger craft could be controlled with one line when arriving or departing shoreside.


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## sailorbill1 (Feb 6, 2014)

Just another story! about big boat sailing, My first big boat ay 20yrs old was a 54ft. van degraff steel cutter; no winches, all block and tackle,canvas main, heavy cotton Yankee and canvas staysail(god they where heavy when wet, could clime up the 68ft mast without a boson's chair, I am now skippering a 54ft. new Beneteua, bow thruster,electric winches 'honestly a five year old could sail it's with any vessel day sailing,coastal or off shore it still comes down to the top 3 per cent of the head. If you think you need to reef do it.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

capta said:


> One point which I'd like to mention about 50'+ boats as a choice for the modern day cruisers, is your women. Those of you who desire to retire to the cruising life with your one true love, or ever expect to have a sailing partner for your adventures that has not been raised to the sailing life, can be quite certain that very few women can easily make the change from a house to a tiny boat, comfortably. Hot showers, a reasonably usable galley and some creature comforts can go a long way to a successful transition.


This seems like an outdated generational thing, when women were homemakers, and men were out chopping wood or something.

Among my peers (~early 30s), I don't find there are women who need "hot showers, a reasonably usable galley and some creature comforts" any more than some men do. Some do, some don't.

My 32 year old wife enjoys being on our no-frills 26' boat for weekends or weeks at a time, and she'd never stepped foot on a sailboat prior to this one. And if you suggested that she need a "usable galley" (cuz her place is in the kitchen), you're sure to get a fairly quizzical look.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

caberg said:


> This seems like an outdated generational thing, when women were homemakers, and men were out chopping wood or something.
> 
> Among my peers (~early 30s), I don't find there are women who need "hot showers, a reasonably usable galley and some creature comforts" any more than some men do. Some do, some don't.


I agree there a lot of boat discussions seem sexist. I like the same things my wife does which why we have together 33 years.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I need a useable galley. Wife is nimble -I'm a Klutz. Need a c shaped galley so I can lean against something and don't fall on my sorry butt making my coffee.
In a larger boat I can bend over and get to pots under the stove. I can have a separate freezer and frig. I can have a bigger stove and oven so can cook a meal all at once instead of in stages.
Similarly can have two heads and a separate shower room with a place to hang wet foulies. Have enough water and on demand hot to take a shower anytime. Wife will get by with PTA bath but I love a hot shower.
Can have multiple staterooms with doors that shut off those spaces from the common areas.
Even with two aboard on the PSC34 we were crawling over each other. Got tired of "please move". Got tired of taking this out to get at that. 
Yes I'm a lazy hedonist and proud of it. I'm envious of those who have the skills and resources to have the 55- 65 foot boat. But as said by others mid 40s fits the bill for most couples and us.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MikeJohns said:


> I wonder how many people who are scared of the idea of a large boat would change their opinion if they actually experienced the benefits ? I changed my view decades ago just after one 5 day passage on a 70 footer, compared with my 40 footer at the time it was bliss.


Well, I can only speak for myself, but I actually have experienced many of the supposed 'benefits' of larger boats, and I'll stick with my preference for boats of a more modest size, thank you...

Big boats don't really "scare me", of course, they can be exhilarating to sail when everything is right... But my perspective is informed by my experience of 30+ years delivering other people's yachts, which has included sailing some pretty big, and very expensive toys... These trips are always done single or shorthanded, and always to a schedule. Having things break or fail is inevitable over time, but my primary concern is lessening the damage when such failures might occur, and being able to physically manage them when they do...

Take something like a gooseneck failure, for example... On a boat like mine, cobbling together a workable repair or jury rig would not be a big deal. On most 40-footers, still doable... But on a 60-footer with a Leisure Furl boom perhaps weighing several hundred pounds, probably not so much...It's that sort of prospect that "scares me" when sailing a larger boat. If I were alone, or had only one other crew, the task could easily overwhelm our physical abilities, and could easily result in injury, or a massive amount of damage to the boat before the boom might be stabilized or secured... I think most sailors were asked if they were forced to deal with a dismasting in heavy weather offshore, if they would rather have to deal with or jettison the rig on a 35-footer, as opposed to a 65-footer, I would guess most would choose the first scenario...

Loss of a rudder or steering, of course, could be another likely scenario... Any jury rig, or the use of an emergency tiller, is likely to rely on a completely manual operation by the crew... Again, if you were forced to get a boat home by the use of control lines, or the trimming of drogues, would you rather be dealing with the forces involved on the smaller boat, or the larger?

Bubblehead mentioned earlier that he knows of only one boat considerably larger than his own that he'd be tempted to own. I'm guessing he's referring to Beth & Evans' 47' HAWK. That sort of boat would be my choice in a larger boat, as well - primarily due to its comparative simplicity... That's a huge component of my "fear" about delivering larger yachts, dealing with the incredible complexity of the systems typically found aboard such boats. Increasing size rarely goes hand in hand with 'simplicity' on today's boats. As a delivery captain, I want to have as few 'issues' during a trip as possible. It's always good when you can keep 'The List' of issues reported to the owner to a minimum, and simply be able to clean up the boat, and get started on the next delivery with as little fuss as possible... And, while my own boat is certainly not devoid of her share of creature comforts, I rate one of the things that helps keep my cruising as pleasant and stress-free as possible, is her relative simplicity...

Whenever I deliver larger boats, I'm always struck by how little many are likely to be actually _SAILED_ by their owners. Downwind poles are usually the leading indicator, it's obvious many have remained stowed on the mast for years. Often there is no provision whatsoever for the running of fore and afterguys, or proper preventers for the main, docklines run to less than ideal attachment points sometimes have to be pressed into service. Of course, one of the primary reasons many people don't use downwind poles on larger boats, is their sheer weight, and general unwieldiness. I ran a larger H-R back up from the islands last summer, we were DDW much of the way. The aluminum pole on that boat was an absolute bear to manage by myself, and represented a real danger whenever we had to jibe, or strike or reset the pole. Once you get above a certain size, carbon fiber is an absolute necessity in a pole IMHO, yet it amazes me how rarely I see owners of larger boats spending the extra money to do it right...

One other thing, a purely personal preference that no doubt is shared by few... But I would never want to go offshore, or for an extended cruise, without a windvane... That pretty much limits you to boats under 50', as a general rule...

Finally, ground tackle that I can physically manage in a blow or an emergency, is a HUGE consideration, for me... On my boat, my Big Bertha storm/kelp/kedge anchor is a 36 lb stainless folding Northill... The equivalent anchor on John Harries' 56' MORGAN'S CLOUD is a 150 pound Luke fisherman... I can't even begin to imagine dealing with such an unwieldy beast in a rising gale, or an emergency situation - even my modest Northill can be a real bear to bring back aboard, over the bow pulpit or lifelines once it's gone over the side...

If I had more time, I could go on...and on... But hopefully, you've gotten my general drift, it's largely about one's physical ability to manage some of the forces that sailing aboard larger boats can involve... Others' mileage may vary, as always...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

caberg said:


> This seems like an outdated generational thing, when women were homemakers, and men were out chopping wood or something.
> 
> Among my peers (~early 30s), I don't find there are women who need "hot showers, a reasonably usable galley and some creature comforts" any more than some men do. Some do, some don't.
> 
> My 32 year old wife enjoys being on our no-frills 26' boat for weekends or weeks at a time, and she'd never stepped foot on a sailboat prior to this one. And if you suggested that she need a "usable galley" (cuz her place is in the kitchen), you're sure to get a fairly quizzical look.


You are not liveaboards, nor cruising, so I'm sure your lovely wife can put up with, and even enjoy, your "no-frills 26' boat" for a while. It's not her home.
When you talk of a boat as your "home" then things change radically. Hell, when I was in my "~early 30s" I couldn't have cared less about creature comforts, the galley (sandwiches were just fine, or even a cold can of baked beans) or anything else, including the weather; just put up the gear and go for it on anything that might actually survive the voyage.
I'm talking about taking a woman, professional or housewife, who has lived in a nice home her whole life, and putting her on a boat, hopefully for as long as they physically can, and sail over the horizon. Even a younger woman wants a few simple comforts in her "home".
As for, ""usable galley" (cuz her place is in the kitchen)"; for me it's always been about division of labor. If my gal is maintaining the mechanical equipment, helping with general maintenance and repairs aboard, then I'm in the galley a great deal more than I would be otherwise. No bullsh*t about a "woman's role"; on a boat, we all contribute where we can. If I'm on the helm for 40 hours in a gale, then I damn well expect (and appreciate) a few hot cups of coffee and a few warm meals, prepared in a (useable) galley in which these things can actually be produced in a gale. There are no "admirals" sailing with me!


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

capta said:


> You are not liveaboards, nor cruising, so I'm sure your lovely wife can put up with, and even enjoy, your "no-frills 26' boat" for a while. It's not her home.
> When you talk of a boat as your "home" then things change radically. Hell, when I was in my "~early 30s" I couldn't have cared less about creature comforts, the galley (sandwiches were just fine, or even a cold can of baked beans) or anything else, including the weather; just put up the gear and go for it on anything that might actually survive the voyage.
> I'm talking about taking a woman, professional or housewife, who has lived in a nice home her whole life, and putting her on a boat, hopefully for as long as they physically can, and sail over the horizon. Even a younger woman wants a few simple comforts in her "home".
> As for, ""usable galley" (cuz her place is in the kitchen)"; for me it's always been about division of labor. If my gal is maintaining the mechanical equipment, helping with general maintenance and repairs aboard, then I'm in the galley a great deal more than I would be otherwise. No bullsh*t about a "woman's role"; on a boat, we all contribute where we can. If I'm on the helm for 40 hours in a gale, then I damn well expect (and appreciate) a few hot cups of coffee and a few warm meals, prepared in a (useable) galley in which these things can actually be produced in a gale. There are no "admirals" sailing with me!


I'm not trying to argue, I just don't think your point is really a gender thing as much as an age thing. As in, it's not _women_ who require a larger boat, it's _older_ folks. It does seem that many people's boat size goes up commensurate with age. Whether that's because of finances, or needing those "creature comforts" on a larger boat, I don't know. Maybe a combination of both. Personally, I can't see us ever on anything larger than 35' or so--even if living aboard--but I guess only time will tell.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Jon- real interested in your comment about windvanes. Do you think the emergency rudder scenario and total loss of electricity are that frequent that leaving having an oversized AP with appropriate spares ( ram, rudder indicator etc.) is not sufficient. For a lot of boats either due to speed DDW, displacement, stern configuration or other issues a servo pendulum may be quite difficult to install and function. What's your cut off for a Hydrovane or like product? Have trouble believing anyone's promo literature.
Thought between two battery banks, wind, solar, generator and oversized alternator supply to the AP is as bulletproof as I can make it. Thinking was with two complete systems or one installed with extensive spares odds of hand steering were low. See fewer and fewer vanes on backs of boats as A.P.s have gotten better.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Couple things;

1) The fact that you are delivering these boats indicates they are not being sailed by the owner. Why are you surprised gear is unused, in dis repair, miss used or missing? These are fashion statements that are not actively sailed, understood or maintained. An example of this is can be seen in a recent aborted delivery.......

Yachts that are actively owner sailed don't hire delivery captains. They have workable systems to handle the loads, have time on the boat to understand how their boats behave and have developed a methodology that allows them to efficiently sail the yacht.

2) You think you can physically manage any thing on a boat weighing more then 24,000 lbs.? Can you pull a 800 pound rig out of the water on a 42 footer any more then you can pull a 2,000 pound rig out of the water on a 58 footer? Can you handle 650 sq ft of sail any more then 1,100 sq ft of sail when it's blowing 35?

Sailing a big boat is all about fore thought, strength is a "non factor". You better think things out well ahead because mistakes on a big boat are dangerous and expensive.



JonEisberg said:


> Whenever I deliver larger boats, I'm always struck by how little many are likely to be actually _SAILED_ by their owners. Downwind poles are usually the leading indicator, it's obvious many have remained stowed on the mast for years. Often there is no provision whatsoever for the running of fore and afterguys, or proper preventers for the main, docklines run to less than ideal attachment points sometimes have to be pressed into service. Of course, one of the primary reasons many people don't use downwind poles on larger boats, is their sheer weight, and general unwieldiness. I ran a larger H-R back up from the islands last summer, we were DDW much of the way. The aluminum pole on that boat was an absolute bear to manage by myself, and represented a real danger whenever we had to jibe, or strike or reset the pole. Once you get above a certain size, carbon fiber is an absolute necessity in a pole IMHO, yet it amazes me how rarely I see owners of larger boats spending the extra money to do it right...
> 
> If I had more time, I could go on...and on... But hopefully, you've gotten my general drift, it's largely about one's physical ability to manage some of the forces that sailing aboard larger boats can involve... Others' mileage may vary, as always...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

My impression is some times owner is on board with delivery captain. May be necessary for insurance reasons or owner's desire for experienced, skilled crew. Some of these boats are actively sailed. Don't have sense of how often this occurs but know folks who do the annual migration to eastern Caribe with a captain. Be interesting to know Jon's experience.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

outbound said:


> My impression is some times owner is on board with delivery captain. May be necessary for insurance reasons or owner's desire for experienced, skilled crew. Some of these boats are actively sailed. Don't have sense of how often this occurs but know folks who do the annual migration to eastern Caribe with a captain. Be interesting to know Jon's experience.


When I was a delivery captain, fees would double if the owner wanted to ride along. Few, if any owners can be relied upon to be proficient, knowledgeable or reliable crew and many wish to turn a delivery into a pleasure cruise. Delivery seasons are finite and a week or so of extra time "cruising" can seriously cut into that period. A delivery is not a pleasure cruise, nor is it a sailing lesson for the owner (that can certainly be done at another time); it is the conveyance of a vessel from point A to point B as quickly as possible, with zero damage and with as few expenses as is practical.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks Capta- That's just sad. Seems a shame someone would incur such a large expense as a boat and not spend the time to learn how to use it. Totally out of my league. I guess my comment just shows my ignorance. Don't understand how having owner aboard would increase time to destination when doing let's say Newport or Norfolk to BVI. Where are you going to stop to make it a pleasure cruise?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

outbound said:


> Thanks Capta- That's just sad. Seems a shame someone would incur such a large expense as a boat and not spend the time to learn how to use it. Totally out of my league. I guess my comment just shows my ignorance. Don't understand how having owner aboard would increase time to destination when doing let's say Newport or Norfolk to BVI. Where are you going to stop to make it a pleasure cruise?


See, that's just the point. It may begin as a Nport-Norfolk BVI run, but then they want to stop in Charleston, because they've heard it's a nice place, "Let's spend a couple of days exploring". Then why not Nassau, it's really right on the way, isn't it? What are the T&C like? And on and on.
It may be sad to you, but it's a job for a professional delivery captain, who may have several other jobs lined up after that one.
Lastly, try living with your boss for a week or two (24/7) then get back to me. What happens if he just doesn't feel like taking his watch one evening? What do you do if he gets scared, but everything is just fine, if a tad rough, far from land? And what happens if he decides four days out he knows more than the captain (but doesn't; that's why he hired a captain in the first place) and states it's his boat and things will be done his way? Trust me, all this has happened, and much more. No thanks. Harsh, perhaps, but at sea there are no second chances, or "take backs", or "I'm sorrys" after an owner has made a bad choice, leaving everybody, and his boat, in peril.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

You know at one time I aspired to do your job. You still get to do something you love- sail. Guess why work is a four letter word.
If I ever hired a captain it would be let's go from A to B. We leave around -/-/-- or when nearest window window allows and get us there as quickly as safety allows.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

outbound said:


> You know at one time I aspired to do your job. You still get to do something you love- sail. Guess why work is a four letter word.
> If I ever hired a captain it would be let's go from A to B. We leave around -/-/-- or when nearest window window allows and get us there as quickly as safety allows.


There are good days and bad, good owners and not so good, but all in all, being a delivery captain is just as much a job as any other. You have a responsibility for the lives of those onboard and a vessel worth a considerable sum, operating a vessel which, more often than not, is not exactly in pristine condition, lol. There are no successful prima donna delivery captains. But I did love it, except those times when I was head down in a cockpit locker, repairing the (insert here; engine, transmission, generator, steering system, compass light, running lights, exhaust hose, etc).


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## MikeJohns (Apr 23, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> ........... But my perspective is informed by my experience of 30+ years delivering other people's yachts, which has included sailing some pretty big, and very expensive toys... These trips are always done single or shorthanded, and always to a schedule. Having things break or fail is inevitable over time, but my primary concern is lessening the damage when such failures might occur, and being able to physically manage them when they do...
> 
> Take something like a gooseneck failure, for example... On a boat like mine, cobbling together a workable repair or jury rig would not be a big deal. On most 40-footers, still doable... But on a 60-footer with a Leisure Furl boom perhaps weighing several hundred pounds, probably not so much...It's that sort of prospect that "scares me" when sailing a larger boat. If I were alone, or had only one other crew, the task could easily overwhelm our physical abilities, and could easily result in injury, or ..........


But consider if you were the owner and you had free reign in fitting out and adapting your own boat, then your concerns about gear breakage could really be put to rest.

Any boat can be customized to be as robust and as simple, or as complex as you want. It's really up to the individual owners preferences and what they can afford or achieve themselves and what design they have chosen.

You don't have those advantages as a casual paid skipper, you just have to worry about what the owner bought and what you and the surveyor didn't notice or the designer screwed up.

A large boat is a lot less weight sensitive to robust gear with a high factor of safety. You can easily make equipment like steering components or goose necks bullet proof. You can also add as much equipment redundancy as you want. As I do for critical systems, my bigger boat is actually a significantly safer proposition than my smaller one.

For an example my 65 has two completely separate hydraulic steering systems, one is just a backup and the rudder and steering gear are well over engineered. So too are most parts of the boat, and the additional weight is pretty insignificant in the scheme of things. Anchor handling is no problem and I have redundancy there too but have never needed it as the main windlass is pretty robust.

Windvanes have their pro's and cons and I'm not worried about not having one on the 65 footer. I have a flemming major on my 45 but I still prefer the autopilot.

Autopilots don't need checking regularly the way wind vanes do and in a lot of conditions I've had to disconnect the vane and the autopilot then often copes just fine.
A wind vane very nearly saw me on the beach a couple of decades ago and it was the sound of the surf that woke me, just an un-forecast wind shift and exhaustion and a few hours 70 degrees off course at 6-7 knots. I've never been that happy with a wind vane since then if there's an autopilot that can be used instead.

As for poles, I never pole anything out if it can be helped except in light air sailing. The big heavy alloy poles are too dangerous if the wind pipes up especially at night. Also I never run dead downwind in my boat since it's the worst point of sail and we roll the masts out. I find I get stability from the sails and a better run taking the wind reasonably on the quarter and gybing every watch.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

I have read this thread and find some of the replies farcical. To the point of nearly calling BS. Yes it is possible to solo sail a large sailboat 50+ but you will need all the mechanical advantage that progress has availed to us. One man can not carry a 100% well folded and packed cruising head sail for an average 65 footer, let alone a wet sail newly doused. To be able to get that sail down and stowed in any kind of sea would be a legendary feat of strength. But very doable if the sail is on and left on a fuller.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have 46' solent rig. Main is big but manageable . On Dutchman with just clew/ foot attached. As you drop it take out battens but leave on Dutchman. Use sail ties to keep in sausage shape as slides come off. Take fishing lines of Dutchman off and roll. Put in bag. Quite do- able by average couple. Would believe in split rigged 60 footer same would apply.
Just saying.
Real issue is the genny. Have to wait for windless day to drop and fold on side deck as it comes down. Would think same would apply to a main in a leisure furl set up. Helped sistership with leisure furl. We brought her to the fuel dock and dropped sail on to dock. Made it easier to get to mandril and disconnect. Had two men,two women but with some effort and no wind probably any two could handle it.
Agree with prior posters. If you go >50' a split rig and no in mast furling ( to much loose sail) may be way to go.
Agree unless you are truly buff above >50' sails get heavy but below modern sails are quite light enough for one to carry.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I will confirm, the only way you would get our sails down when double handed in heavy seas is in a very ugly, lash them to the deck sort of method. Zero chance you will get them folded and down below without an army. Singlehanded, you're screwed. I've seriously consider what I would do, if far offshore in a storm and I blew out the genny. I think I would have to drop her, disconnect and abandon her overboard. Major motivation to have only a storm sail flying with those conditions threatening.

We have taken our sails down underway, poorly folded them on limited deck space and put them below, with just the two of us. It was fairly calm conditions and so exhausting and frustrating, I would dread the idea of every doing it again. We did it to prove we could. We also proved we couldn't in harsh conditions, as a result.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Shockwave said:


> Couple things;
> 
> 1) The fact that you are delivering these boats indicates they are not being sailed by the owner. Why are you surprised gear is unused, in dis repair, miss used or missing? These are fashion statements that are not actively sailed, understood or maintained. An example of this is can be seen in a recent aborted delivery.......
> 
> Yachts that are actively owner sailed don't hire delivery captains. They have workable systems to handle the loads, have time on the boat to understand how their boats behave and have developed a methodology that allows them to efficiently sail the yacht.


Well, you would be wrong about that, actually...

The H-R with the ridiculously heavy spinnaker pole I referenced had been sailed by the owner to the Caribbean from Europe in the ARC the previous fall... With a crew of 6 men, who would have been far better able to work the foredeck than a singlehander, or a typical Mom & Pop cruising couple...

Much of my delivery work comes from owners who simply do not have the time to do the trips themselves... Many guys who send their boats south for the winter, would prefer to spend their available time using the boat in Florida or the Caribbean, rather than using up the weeks or month it might take simply getting it down there and back ... The single boat that I have more miles on than any other, was one that was raced in the Fastnet, a couple of Bermuda Races, the Pineapple Cup, and went south every winter... But even the most well-heeled owners sometimes have to work to support their sailing habit, hence the occasional need to hire someone to move the boat from points A to B...



Shockwave said:


> 2) You think you can physically manage any thing on a boat weighing more then 24,000 lbs.? Can you pull a 800 pound rig out of the water on a 42 footer any more then you can pull a 2,000 pound rig out of the water on a 58 footer? Can you handle 650 sq ft of sail any more then 1,100 sq ft of sail when it's blowing 35?


Not necessarily, but I know I at least have a better chance of physically managing some of the loads and forces on smaller boats, as opposed to larger...



Shockwave said:


> Sailing a big boat is all about fore thought, strength is a "non factor".


We'll simply have to agree to disagree on that one, to suggest that strength is a "non-factor" as boats grow in size is certainly not my experience... And, I see so many older cruising couples out there that are so clearly 'over-boated', sometimes struggling with something as elemental as docking their boat in a marina on the ICW, I doubt that perception is mine, alone...



Shockwave said:


> You better think things out well ahead because *mistakes on a big boat are dangerous* and expensive.


Well, that would seem to run counter to your argument that there is no great difference in the forces involved between sailing smaller boats, as opposed to larger, no?

Trust me, as one who has spent the overwhelming percentage of my time on the water alone, I am somewhat familiar with the notion of thinking/planning ahead...

Hence, my preference for avoiding sailing what I deem to be excessively large boats, to begin with...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> I will confirm, the only way you would get our sails down when double handed in heavy seas is in a very ugly, lash them to the deck sort of method. Zero chance you will get them folded and down below without an army. Singlehanded, you're screwed. I've seriously consider what I would do, if far offshore in a storm and I blew out the genny. I think I would have to drop her, disconnect and abandon her overboard. Major motivation to have only a storm sail flying with those conditions threatening.
> 
> We have taken our sails down underway, poorly folded them on limited deck space and put them below, with just the two of us. It was fairly calm conditions and so exhausting and frustrating, I would dread the idea of every doing it again. We did it to prove we could. We also proved we couldn't in harsh conditions, as a result.


I'm a bit confused by your statements. Why would you even think of folding a sail "when double handed in heavy seas"? When we had to pull the Yankee off in a full gale in the stream NPort-Bermuda, we stuffed it (not even bagged) below in the salon (no way I was opening the foredeck hatch in those conditions) and we slept on it (quite comfortably, I might add) until the wind calmed enough to reset it. Of course, we turned down wind to drop and stow it, but really, folding a sail underway has never occurred to me; stuff, stow n go, at the most.
Abandon the genny? Why not just drag it down the deck (again, running off to ease the situation) and stuff it down the companionway into the salon, and bag it down there? I'm just not rich enough to be throwing sails over the side.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

SimonV said:


> Yes it is possible to solo sail a large sailboat 50+ but you will need all the mechanical advantage that progress has availed to us. One man can not carry a 100% well folded and packed cruising head sail for an average 65 footer, let alone a wet sail newly doused.


Well if the requirement becomes no mechanical advantage we are down to things like little Hobie cats with no winches.

I've taken my main off on my 43' boat solo before and even got it kind of folded in in the bag on a nice calm day. But once it was in the bag it was a chore to carry it to the cockpit without dropping it or me over the side.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

capta said:


> I'm a bit confused by your statements. Why would you even think of folding a sail "when double handed in heavy seas"? When we had to pull the Yankee off in a full gale in the stream NPort-Bermuda, we stuffed it (not even bagged) below in the salon (no way I was opening the foredeck hatch in those conditions) and we slept on it (quite comfortably, I might add) until the wind calmed enough to reset it. Of course, we turned down wind to drop and stow it, but really, folding a sail underway has never occurred to me; stuff, stow n go, at the most.
> Abandon the genny? Why not just drag it down the deck (again, running off to ease the situation) and stuff it down the companionway into the salon, and bag it down there? I'm just not rich enough to be throwing sails over the side.


Well, the Genny is huge. Even on the side deck, it will lie almost back to the cockpit and there would be zero room for you. Without some form of folding, you would never jam it down the companionway, let alone any hatch. She's a monster. Much bigger than the main. I know this because we barely got her down when we did fold her on deck and dropped it coming down the companionway. It exploded into a big mess and had to be jammed up the stairs to get it out. A proper flaking is impossible on our deck. Not enough room.

Just to repeat, I reference a blown out genny, when I said I would consider abandoning. Understanding that could take many forms, I was thinking of a trashed sail that was flogging and catching wind incorrectly, so that it had to come down.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MikeJohns said:


> But consider if you were the owner and you had free reign in fitting out and adapting your own boat, then your concerns about gear breakage could really be put to rest.


Uhhh, I don't think so... I've yet to see one of these "bulletproof" sailing yachts of which you speak... 



MikeJohns said:


> A large boat is a lot less weight sensitive to robust gear with a high factor of safety. You can easily make equipment like steering components or goose necks bullet proof. You can also add as much equipment redundancy as you want. As I do for critical systems, my bigger boat is actually a significantly safer proposition than my smaller one.


Well, that may be true of your boat, but most of the overbuilt battleships I've sailed, or seen, are barely capable of getting out of their own way under sail in lighter air, and are often seen 'sailing' on perfect days using this rather curious 'sail configuration'...












MikeJohns said:


> For an example my 65 has two completely separate hydraulic steering systems, one is just a backup and the rudder and steering gear are well over engineered.


Uh-oh, don't get me started on hydraulic steering on _sailboats_... One of my least favorite features on many larger yachts, sailing without feedback through a wheel or tiller IMHO is akin to having to wear _MULTIPLE_ condoms... 



MikeJohns said:


> *Autopilots don't need checking regularly the way wind vanes do* and in a lot of conditions I've had to disconnect the vane and the autopilot then often copes just fine.


Well, I realize windvanes have almost completely fallen out of favor these days, but I don't view having to actually pay attention to changing conditions as necessarily being a bad thing... The 'Set It & Forget It' methodology that seems to be increasingly prevalent among many sailors today can often produce less than optimum performance under sail, not to mention inviting unfortunate navigational consequences...



MikeJohns said:


> A wind vane very nearly saw me on the beach a couple of decades ago and it was the sound of the surf that woke me, just an un-forecast wind shift and exhaustion and a few hours 70 degrees off course at 6-7 knots. I've never been that happy with a wind vane since then if there's an autopilot that can be used instead.


Sorry, but that's simply an example of poor seamanship, and a misuse of one of your pieces of equipment... Sailing to a vane in coastal waters or within range of other dangers, then going to sleep, is begging for trouble, bigtime...

Not to mention, an autopilot is not immune to producing a similar result... Jeanne Socrates' first attempt at a circumnavigation came to a disastrous end less than 100 miles short of crossing her outbound track, when her AP malfunctioned, and put her on a Mexican beach while she was grabbing a bit of sleep:












MikeJohns said:


> As for poles, I never pole anything out if it can be helped except in light air sailing. The big heavy alloy poles are too dangerous if the wind pipes up especially at night. Also I never run dead downwind in my boat since it's the worst point of sail and we roll the masts out. I find I get stability from the sails and a better run taking the wind reasonably on the quarter and gybing every watch.


I hear similar claims from time to time, but I'm still surprised that downwind poles are so rarely used by so many cruising sailors...

Many times, one simply has little other option than to sail DDW, in coastal waters, constricted channels, and so on... In a long, narrow choke point for shipping such as the Old Bahama Channel between Cuba and the Great Bahama Bank, for example... You may be happy gybing back and forth across such busy shipping lanes, but I'll happily sail DDW in prevailing conditions, favoring the Bahamian side, and staying out of their way... Back in December, I spent the better part of a delightful day sailing DDW down the tight channel through the Indian River, while being passed by several boats under power...










Tacking downwind can sometimes be an effective strategy on some modern, lighter displacement flyers that can maximize their speed by reaching off, and compensating for the longer distance sailed... But most full displacement Bulletproof Battleships that you seem to be referring to, by the time you're tacking downwind at high enough sailing angles to get the headsail out from behind the shadow of the main, you're really gonna be struggling to produce sufficient extra speed to make up the difference - particularly when you might be sailing at or near hull speed DDW, to begin with...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

One point you all seem to be missing on "big boats" is that many have work shops and the tools to repair and/or fabricate items onboard. On one larger vessel I operated, if I needed a part, I could just go down into the engine room, crank up the lathe, the welder and the drill press and fabricate it, even at sea. We always carried stock aboard and could create anything from an engine part to that gooseneck someone mentioned above. We could weld a crack in a boom or mast, fabricate a scuba tank holder or even make a bolt by threading rod and using two nuts, right there onboard. That definitely cuts the costs of operating a bigger vessel.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capta said:


> One point you all seem to be missing on "big boats" is that many have work shops and the tools to repair and/or fabricate items onboard. On one larger vessel I operated, if I needed a part, I could just go down into the engine room, crank up the lathe, the welder and the drill press and fabricate it, even at sea. We always carried stock aboard and could create anything from an engine part to that gooseneck someone mentioned above. We could weld a crack in a boom or mast, fabricate a scuba tank holder or even make a bolt by threading rod and using two nuts, right there onboard. That definitely cuts the costs of operating a bigger vessel.


Well, that's a valid point, I suppose...

But as for me, stepping up in size would end well before I'd reached the point where I could have a virtual machine shop on board, in order to save money by fabricating my own bolts... 

I believe I could manage quite nicely by ripping out the berth in the starboard quarter cabin on a Sweden 390, and converting that space into a utility room/workshop and day head/wet locker...










Until then, a Zyliss vise mounted on a work board in the cockpit of my little tub will have to do...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

So Jon -In your view what's the upper cut off for the typical mom and pop cruiser? 40'? 45'? 50?. Or is it by displacement ? Or sail area?


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Sample sign for you delivery guys:

YACHT DELIVERY FEES

Plus all licenses, permits, fees, taxes, equipment, provisioning and fitting-out costs;

per crew member -- $175.00/day;

Delivery Captain, per day:
----- $275.00
----- $400.00 if owner aboard 
----- $550.00 if owner 'helps' 
---- $1000.00 if owner navigates


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## Total Chaos (Jan 28, 2014)

outbound said:


> So Jon -In your view what's the upper cut off for the typical mom and pop cruiser? 40'? 45'? 50?. Or is it by displacement ? Or sail area?


I can't answer for Jon, but I think its fair to say that you know the answer to that question is really not a simple one. By mom and pop, are you referring to two extremely experienced round the world live aboards, or are you talking about a couple that days sails and goes out for an occasional weekend sail with maybe a few weeks once a year out to the Bahamas?

Ours is a slightly different situation as we have two teenage boys as crew, they have been sailing since before they were teenagers and well they can handle most anything on our boat. Our boat is big, yes, but she has the equipment to make her as safe as possible for our family. We enjoy sailing her very much and I feel comfortable that we can handle most any reasonable situation that might arise. Yes the sails are big, the split rig helps, but the sails are a handful on the deck anyone who says otherwise I would seriously question. Our head sails are on Harken roller furlers and they have not given us a single problem in many thousand miles of sailing her. As I mentioned before our main and mizzen are on Leisure furl boom furlers. The boat can be sailed from the cockpit without need to go forward. We have many sail configurations to choose from and we have the right equipment on board to handle the increased forces and weights... sometimes we may be slower as a result which as has been said above can be dangerous without forethought. Early on sailing her we had our spreaders nearly in the drink when we couldn't get sail in fast enough on the head sails when caught in a blow off New Zealand. This was lack of experience purely. We've never had this problem since... we get our sail in early every time now.

The purists won't like this one but... I don't have an issue with the lack of sail in the picture above. We have not a single issue with dropping sail and heading dead into the wind on motor alone. If one can afford to maintain a 65 foot boat the price of fuel isn't going to kill them. Bottom line is there are a huge number of cruising couples on POWER boats out enjoying the same sights we are with single engine trawlers... My gosh I wonder if they completely avoid lee shores just in case their engine dies. Our boat motors wonderfully and in places like Malaysia I thank God she does, because the wind there is unreliable at best.

Some things I'd hate to give up... Dive compressor w/cascade, 10 dive bottles.  Shop compete with welder, a lathe would be nice, but it would occupy a little more space than I'd like. Washing machine (we have kids enough said) Generator and large refrigeration and we love to run the air conditioning from time to time, we have five of them. Our dingy is our family ski boat compete with all the toys she is on a hydraulic lift. Love the hydraulic lift- it makes the best dive platform and we do a lot of diving. I like to cook and I love all the galley storage. I don't have to store food all over the boat because a great deal of it fits in the galley. I like the Ca King in the master, but in a seaway the cloth must be fitted to sleep in it or i'd roll a long ways hahah. Oh and spares we carry a lot of spares. The lazarette is the garage and is around 100 sq ft. complete with shelves for massive storage. (The dive compressor and cascade take up space here in our case) For the girls their privacy is nice they have their own staterooms and can shut the doors. Just makes a good home.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Was not speaking specifically about us. But we are relative newbies. I've done multiple Newport / Marion Bermuda s. A few N.E. Bahamas caribe transports. Wife was live aboard summers on a motorboat growing up but other than non stop N.E. to Annapolis and a Norfolk to N.E. she just done local coastal cruising. She's seen some weather and did well. In two weeks she'll get BVi to Nassau done with I expect two 3-4d passages during that trip. So far other than docking 46' has not been intimidating and definitely if it's a well made and well found boat size equals safety in my view. That's why I was curious to Jon's view. As you mentioned on basis of simple physics that's going to be true. So question is his view of what size is not handable by mom and pop. Think we're nothing special and a fairly typical cruising couple starting out. What I see are similar couples in boats mid 40-mid50 range. Hylas,HR,Outbound, Passport, or older Swans,Bristols,Hinkleys etc. Seems these couples travel. Bigger seem jet set crowd with paid crew. Smaller seems get to an area and stay. Realize this is a gross generalization with many exceptions. Wondering if my impression based on little knowledge is accurate. Also Europeans coming over seem also to mostly be in the same size range. Kids are grown and gone so we don't have your joy of live aboard crew.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Was thinking about above DDW comment
Below 20k no main. Parasailor.
Above 20. No main. Solent one side. Some genny other. CF poles are light.
Above 30. Solent on pole and strap of main on preventer.
Have used all of above. Did not feel stressed.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

outbound said:


> Jon- real interested in your comment about windvanes. Do you think the emergency rudder scenario and total loss of electricity are that frequent that leaving having an oversized AP with appropriate spares ( ram, rudder indicator etc.) is not sufficient. For a lot of boats either due to speed DDW, displacement, stern configuration or other issues a servo pendulum may be quite difficult to install and function. What's your cut off for a Hydrovane or like product? Have trouble believing anyone's promo literature.
> Thought between two battery banks, wind, solar, generator and oversized alternator supply to the AP is as bulletproof as I can make it. Thinking was with two complete systems or one installed with extensive spares odds of hand steering were low. See fewer and fewer vanes on backs of boats as A.P.s have gotten better.


Well, I'm obviously among a rapidly diminishing minority when it comes to vanes. What can I say - I've always loved mine, its elegant use of nothing but wind and water represents what sailing is all about in the first place, for me. I'm guessing many who diss the use of such Old School self-steering technology have probably never actually tried using a vane, and while autopilots have definitely improved greatly in terms of performance and efficiency, I think all the crap many cruisers are now carrying on the back of their boats, and the increasing number of tenders being stowed on davits, and the prevalence of stern arches and cockpit enclosures that can preclude the use of a vane, has more to do with fewer vanes being fitted, than anything else... Of course, I've always thought the primary reason many people today have so little interest in windvanes, is that they cannot be put into _TRACK_ mode, and interfaced with a chartplotter to automatically take you to a distant waypoint 

I don't view my Sailomat as a very likely means of self steering in anything other than pretty benign conditions. It could be pressed into service as such, but it's not really designed for such a purpose, and in open ocean and bigger seas, I'd probably have to rely on other methods...

I've only used a Hydrovane once, and I must say I was underwhelmed, it's performance was not remotely close to that of a true servo-pendulum vane like my Sailomat, or a Monitor... I may have been able to dial it in a bit better over time, but it's a pretty simple device and the principle is basically the same as a Sailomat, so I don't think the fault was necessarily mine. The rudder was simply too small to steer the boat in tradewind conditions, and as we were sailing DDW so much of the time, I wouldn't trust it to avoid an accidental jibe...



outbound said:


> So Jon -In your view what's the upper cut off for the typical mom and pop cruiser? 40'? 45'? 50?. Or is it by displacement ? Or sail area?


I'd say 42.4672834 feet, nothing more... 

Impossible question to answer, of course, I can only speak to the upper limit of what I'm personally comfortable sailing alone. So many variables among boats, of course, something between 38-40 seems ideal for me at the moment. I could imagine going as large as 44' or so, for something like a Boreal, or for a comparatively 'small' 44-footer like an Alden...

Naturally, I have other constraints regarding boat size that many others may not. I only have 50' of waterfront at my home, and am restricted to about 5.5' draft for Barnegat Bay, and a 65' air draft to the north, and only 60' to my preferred access to the ocean to the south... I'd always want a relatively shoal draft for my preferred cruising grounds anyway, and at this stage of my life would never want to own a boat that wasn't ICW capable, and I'm not talking 64.5' either  Few things are more nerve-wracking, to me, than dealing with a bridge clearance of mere inches...

As you suggest, this is very much a combination of length, displacement, and sail area... I've always liked the general principle of Steve Dashew's designs - long, lean and lighter hulls, coupled with a relatively modest rig size. Such a boat 'scaled down' could be very appealing, and I could consider going for something closer to 50' in such a boat, but nobody really seems to be building such boats today... Not to mention, such a boat would be out of my league price-wise, anyway... 

As for doing deliveries, anything much beyond 50' starts to make me nervous, at least for an offshore passage. I'd generally much rather make the passage to Bermuda, or the Caribbean, on something like a Valiant 42, than on something like a Hylas 54...

I've always thought a good 'marker' for determining boat size relative to one's personal strength, is the ability to furl a headsail by hand. I'm of the opinion that I should be able to furl the jib in 'normal' conditions without having to resort to the use of a winch... If I cannot, it means either that the furler itself is undersized, or the furling line leads are not sufficiently fair, or I've waited too long to reef, or I'm simply not strong enough to be sailing that particular boat... Having to take a furling line to a winch - particularly a powered one - can be a very risky practice, as so clearly demonstrated recently by Stanley Paris when he destroyed one of his furlers aboard KIWI SPIRIT...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks Jon . Very sensible answer. Been debating about doing A.P. spares and an emergency rudder set up or get that functionality through a Hydrovane. Look forward you seeing your vessel sailing this summer. 
Guess I'm still ok can pull in my headsails although the first couple of turns take some effort.:laugher


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## 34crealock (Dec 30, 2012)

My spare autopilot is a monitor wind vane. You can't be too careful.


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## MikeJohns (Apr 23, 2008)

SimonV said:


> I have read this thread and find some of the replies farcical. To the point of nearly calling BS. ...........One man can not carry a 100% well folded and packed cruising head sail for an average 65 footer, let alone a wet sail newly doused. To be able to get that sail down and stowed in any kind of sea would be a legendary feat of strength. But very doable if the sail is on and left on a fuller.


Who ever said they could carry such a sail ? I cant even carry many of the sails on my 45 footer. 

I don't have a problem dropping a hanked on sail, I find it's much easier and quicker to claw down a luffing headsail than to try and furl it. Usually the hanked on headsail drops itself with just a man on the halyard winch controlling the drop and timing it with the roll to keep it inboard. That's especially so for the high clewed Yankee, you can drop the yankee well inboard easily and you can also pull the clew in close to the centreline with the lee sheet if you want. The big 100% jib is harder especially in a blow and needs a hand pulling the leech inboard and someone pulling down on the luff while another controls the halyard and another or the autopilot on the helm..... So we tend not to.......it's called keeping it easy  Sailing short handed I just don't use a large jib or Genoa only the Yankee and the staysail together.

We didn't even hank the No 1 on our last passage, I don't push the boat, I'd rather be comfortable, keep the heel down and reduce the motion and loads on gear, and still make good enough passages. and the Staysail and Yankee fill enough of the fore triangle to keep most people happy.

The outer jibs are a Yankee and the large 100% Jib hank on to their own forestays (which are side by side). They stay hanked on when at sea and are just raised and lowered. It's a good system and I'm very happy with that arrangement. There are bulwarks with a stainless steel tube rail atop that the sail slides over the bags can be atached to the bulkwark and the sail dropped into the bag with it's clew tack and head still connected and zipped up or just lashed to the bulwark if it's going back up after a short lived front.

I can drag large sails around the deck and hank them on easily enough on a 65' ketch but that's a benefit of a split rig. My light air nylon sails are easily carried of course.

You can also rig a downhaul on any sail if you find it doesn't slide freely but I only rig that for the main to the 2nd reef luff position.

And sailing with a decent crew is magnificent and you can really play with sails, poles, spinnakers and all. Raising and lowering sails to really work the wind to the max in the daylight But I still drop to high cut 'working' sails overnight.


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## MikeJohns (Apr 23, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Uhhh, I don't think so... I've yet to see one of these "bulletproof" sailing yachts of which you speak...


Whatever parts you 'worry about' breaking such as the Steering gear or the boom-mast attachment can be made stronger than required with very little weight penalty. Without building a battleship.



JonEisberg said:


> Well, that may be true of your boat, but most of the overbuilt battleships I've sailed, or seen, are barely capable of getting out of their own way under sail in lighter air, and are often seen 'sailing' on perfect days using this rather curious 'sail configuration'...


Ha ha...... yes good wind as well, but plenty of 40 footers do that too ! It's the owners prerogative. When I was in the Carribean I saw a lot of people motoring even performance multihulls, cheap fuel ! My boat sailed St M to St John at 9 knots most of the way under one big headsail alone and Passed people motoring! There's some funny sailors around.



JonEisberg said:


> Uh-oh, don't get me started on hydraulic steering on _sailboats_... One of my least favorite features on many larger yachts, sailing without feedback through a wheel or tiller IMHO is akin to having to wear _MULTIPLE_ condoms...


Never the less it works, it's easy to fix and it can be made pretty reliable with a pressurized reservoir and a pressure gauge in view of the helm. Any pressure drop is an early warning. It's a good system. You can also get positive feedback hydraulic helms now.



JonEisberg said:


> Well, I realize windvanes have almost completely fallen out of favor these days, .....
> Sorry, but that's simply an example of poor seamanship, and a misuse of one of your pieces of equipment... Sailing to a vane in coastal waters or within range of other dangers, then going to sleep, is begging for trouble, bigtime...
> 
> Not to mention, an autopilot is not immune to producing a similar result...


Oh I make no claim to it being my finest hour  But I was exhausted and sick and not caring I went below for a little rest...and slept and slept. It's easy to do.

BUT I would have been better off with a functioning autopilot then rather than a functioning wind vane , that's all.
These days you can program an alarm for course deviation on another bit of electronics so it keeps an eye on the Autopilot and sounds an alarm if you are off-course. I really like the navigational gear these days.


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

I can't see where cost is mentioned. I have a 41' boat and the exponential increase in cost from my 29' was a shock. I can't imagine what it would be if I went to a 50 or 60'


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Big boats cost more then small, there is no getting around that. Pick a boat that matches your budget and be happy with what you have.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Mike, some people don't like big boats and don't like how they are sailed, used, docked... Jealousy? I don't know, as my kids say "whatever".


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Shockwave said:


> Mike, some people don't like big boats and don't like how they are sailed, used, docked... Jealousy? I don't know, as my kids say "whatever".


In some cases, perhaps...

For certain, I wish I had the money to be able to afford a "Big Boat"... If I did, I'd spend it on something around 38-40' of high quality, and take off cruising on a $3-5K/month budget...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

outbound said:


> My impression is some times owner is on board with delivery captain. May be necessary for insurance reasons or owner's desire for experienced, skilled crew. Some of these boats are actively sailed. Don't have sense of how often this occurs but know folks who do the annual migration to eastern Caribe with a captain. Be interesting to know Jon's experience.


I've never done an offshore delivery with an owner aboard...

Although I've always tried to avoid such trips, most of my experience with owners aboard has been generally pretty positive... I managed to go years and years without ever having to do a trip with the owner, but nowadays that the Good Times aren't Rolling like they used to, a delivery skipper might on occasion have to make some concessions, if he wants to have steady work. With new owners starting out with bigger and bigger boats all the time, I have most definitely seen a big jump in owners wanting to use a delivery as a learning/training experience... For example, last summer I helped a couple run their new 47-footer the length of Chesapeake Bay... It was their _FIRST BOAT_, and one of the things they needed was a captain to sign off on 24 hours worth of 'training' for their insurance company... In the past couple of years, I've also done deliveries for a handful of other owners along for a portion of the ride, who were jumping into sailing with a first boat in excess of 40 feet, seems to be the way of the world, these days...

I must admit, most of these coastal trips with owners aboard have turned out fine... Actually, my biggest complaint usually turns out to be the weight gain I usually suffer, from being so well fed, or eating so many meals ashore during the course of the trip... Last fall I did a trip with the owner along from Annapolis down to Charleston, he happens to be the owner of a couple of very fancy restaurants in Vail, CO... So, with the exception of the first overnight sailing down the bay, every night for the remainder of the trip was spent at marinas, seeking the best restaurant we could find. As soon as the boat was secured and cleaned up for the night, the first bottle of a very fine wine would be opened, while our dining options were discussed... Incredibly decadent trip, I definitely tacked on more than a few ounces around the middle, probably should have added a Weight Gain Surcharge onto my invoice... 

I could easily manage taking my own boat down South for the winter and back, for less than what was spent on food and drink alone on this trip  But the owner is a wonderful guy, really enjoyed his company, and we were fortunate to have had some fantastic - albeit a bit chilly - sailing along the way...

He's thinking of making the switch to power, as he's tired of motoring most everywhere he goes, so he really enjoyed the sailing we did... And, unlike some owners I've traveled with, he actually remained awake, and on deck, for much of the time...


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Looks like a sweet ride. In boom furling, probably electrics and all the bells and whistles. Day jumps? Not a bad way to go if you want a good nights sleep.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

The ocean is not a forgiving creature. So..... would you rather have the full sized / serious equipment or the thin mast / rigging / lines / etc., which go with the smaller weekend cruisers?

We have a ketch rigged Tai Chiao CT 56 and wouldn't consider going down one single inch.

We have parties with as much as 30 people onboard. We also liveaboard. And yes, we do almost 100% of the maintenance work ourselves. 

This boat weighs over 68,000 lbs., and I LOVE that! When I pull up to a dock she is not easily pushed away by current and or wind; i.e., I have plenty of time to tie her up. 
She is not easily bounced around at the dock when a boat goes by us.

I like to compare the size question to this:

Would you rather be driving a scooter or a full sized vehicle on the interstate highway?

Fair winds....
Doug


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Jon- see we aren't all jerks. Personally what I see are skilled and sometimes very skilled owners taking on captains for reasons often driven by insurance or like factors. Agree there can only be one captain but there can be watch captains as well. I've yet to hire a captain but I could see it happen.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

DougSabbag said:


> ...
> I like to compare the size question to this:
> 
> Would you rather be driving a scooter or a full sized vehicle on the interstate highway?
> ...


I don't think it is a good comparison, as bad as comparing a bus with a Porsche on the interstate highway.

You could compare on the interstate a small family car with a big limo but that is not fair also because the limo is not more difficult to drive or handle, at least on the interstate, while a bigger boat can (or not, depending of size and type of boat).

I believe that for most regarding big boats the main issues and questions are:

*How big can I sail solo or with my wife comfortably?

How will the size of a big boat affect maintenance and marina costs?

How that size will affect the ability to put in and out the boat from marinas and ports alone or just with a bit of help from my wive?

How much that big size will affect availability of marina and port spaces on the cruising grounds I will sail?

How much I will gain in speed regarding a less expensive to maintain and easier to maneuver (at the marina) boat?

How much space and carrying load do I really need for the type of sailing and life-style (use of the boat) I have or want?*

Regards

Paulo


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Paulo ends his post with what I think is the key point.

How big a boat for the sailing we will do.

If I was not looking at living aboard with my wife wanting heat/cooling/ TV/internet/ email/ room for longterm guests. If I was not looking at one to two blue water passages a year. If I was not looking at being self contained as regards water, electric, and stores for an unknown period of time but likely weeks..... I would be pleased as punch with something around 30 feet. Easier on the wallet and easier on me.

For the sailing we will do for the next 10-15y mid forties are right. Other have explained for the sailing they do much bigger is right. All have tempered their decisions by the resources they have and their ability to make their boat as much as possible sail-able by one. It is wonderful as sails, sail handling, A.P.s boat design/construction have advanced that point in size becomes bigger and bigger. Still, that needs to be tempered by thinking about what happens when a system breaks as all eventually will.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Shockwave said:


> Looks like a sweet ride. In boom furling, probably electrics and all the bells and whistles. *Day jumps? Not a bad way to go if you want a good nights sleep.*


Also not a bad way to go if the owner wants to see the one portion of the East coast (Norfolk to Charleston) he had not previously seen by boat, the trip is being done during the shortest days of the year, the guy enjoys few things more than dining in nice restaurants and drinking fine wines, and the captain's fee is based more on a daily basis, as opposed to a flat rate...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

vtsailguy said:


> Tartan 41 romping through 20kn and 6' swell - YouTube


Nice video, but I miss the point

What do you want to state with it?


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

lol, sorry, wrong thread!!!

How do I delete a post?


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JonEisberg said:


> ...
> I've always thought a good 'marker' for determining boat size relative to one's personal strength, is the ability to furl a headsail by hand. I'm of the opinion that I should be able to furl the jib in 'normal' conditions without having to resort to the use of a winch... If I cannot, it means either that the furler itself is undersized, or the furling line leads are not sufficiently fair, or I've waited too long to reef, or I'm simply not strong enough to be sailing that particular boat... Having to take a furling line to a winch - particularly a powered one - can be a very risky practice, as so clearly demonstrated recently by Stanley Paris when he destroyed one of his furlers aboard KIWI SPIRIT...


I don't get that one. I never sailed on any 40ft boat (or bigger) where it was possible to reef an headsail on strong winds downwind without a help from a winch. It has nothing to do with the furler but wind wind power on the sail, the size of the sail and with the impossibility to take the wind out of it (upwind it's easy).

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

vtsailguy said:


> lol, sorry, wrong thread!!!
> 
> How do I delete a post?


Got to edit, click on delete on the right then confirm on the left and click on delete again on the right (bottom of the page).


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

caberg said:


> I think the word "scared" of a big boat is a bit misconstrued. It's not so much fear, I would think, as it is being not naive about what can potentially go wrong.


For me I am scared of the cost and have fear of getting the marina bills.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

vtsailguy said:


> Tartan 41 romping through 20kn and 6' swell - YouTube


Might want to consider rigging the reef through there grommet, around the boom and back up to the grommet. Looks like fun.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

PCP said:


> I don't think it is a good comparison, as bad as comparing a bus with a Porsche on the interstate highway.
> 
> You could compare on the interstate a small family car with a big limo but that is not fair also because the limo is not more difficult to drive or handle, at least on the interstate, while a bigger boat can (or not, depending of size and type of boat).
> 
> ...


Sure there are many factors to consider. And the monetary considerations are with us in almost anything we do in life.... buying a car, a home, a boat, etc.

Of course the main use of the boat is the primary question.

If it will be used as a weekend coastal cruiser, that is quite different from a liveaboard / blue water / long range vessel.

That is what my wife and I do with our boat, thus the maxim: buy as big as you can afford.

If we could afford it, we would have a Perini Navi faster than you can say 'sold'.

But, just to throw a debating point into the mix, I have found that a smaller boat is less forgiving, i.e., they react much quicker to wind changes than a larger vessel. So, if I am below making something to eat, or whatever, and the wind goes from 15 to 30 + knots, our CT 56 handles that even while flying all the sheets.

IF that happened onboard a smaller sloop, it would be a much more urgent situation to handle ASAP, with potential disaster hanging in the balance.

So, there are more positive reasons to have a bigger boat, than a smaller one, once your wallet is a lower priority than the ocean is.


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

Shockwave said:


> Might want to consider rigging the reef through there grommet, around the boom and back up to the grommet. Looks like fun.


Yes, yes, I know


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

PCP said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> > ...
> > I've always thought a good 'marker' for determining boat size relative to one's personal strength, is the ability to furl a headsail by hand. I'm of the opinion that I should be able to furl the jib in 'normal' conditions without having to resort to the use of a winch... If I cannot, it means either that the furler itself is undersized, or the furling line leads are not sufficiently fair, or I've waited too long to reef, or I'm simply not strong enough to be sailing that particular boat... Having to take a furling line to a winch - particularly a powered one - can be a very risky practice, as so clearly demonstrated recently by Stanley Paris when he destroyed one of his furlers aboard KIWI SPIRIT...
> 
> ...


Well, perhaps it's just me...

In any amount of fresh breeze, a always try to bear off when reefing or furling, and maybe try to get the headsail in the shadow of the main, if possible... I generally find heading down, instead of heading up, to be far easier, and kinder to the sail... Again, with with a good furler, fair leads and a ratchet turning block, I should have no trouble on a 40 footer in moderate conditions...

One other "cutoff point" I forgot to mention, for me... I would never, ever want to own a sailboat that required a 50 amp shorepower cord... After as many years as I have running motor yachts and sportfishermen, I am SO done with those freakin' things...


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, perhaps it's just me...
> 
> In any amount of fresh breeze, a always try to bear off when reefing or furling, and maybe try to get the headsail in the shadow of the main, if possible... I generally find heading down, instead of heading up, to be far easier, and kinder to the sail... Again, with with a good furler, fair leads and a ratchet turning block, I should have no trouble on a 40 footer in moderate conditions...
> 
> One other "cutoff point" I forgot to mention, for me... I would never, ever want to own a sailboat that required a 50 amp shorepower cord... After as many years as I have running motor yachts and sportfishermen, I am SO done with those freakin' things...


And we completely LOVE the 50 amps since we live onboard. Imagine trying to heat an all electric boat in Boston during the winter without at least 50 amps!

When we had a 35 amp boat, we had to constantly balance our electric usage... gee, do we want the microwave, or the water heater, or the refrigerators / battery charger, or the washer / dryer, or the space heaters, or ......... get's quite old.

But, some people lament the use of cars instead of horses. And, some pure sailors are embarrassed to have a motor on their vessel. Some even claim a woman onboard is bad luck! Some won't rely on GPS devices. I could list the many lines in the sand which people draw for themselves, but for us, we enjoy the hot water, TVs, microwave, washer & dryer, plenty of heat, refrigerator & freezer, computers, etc., all running concurrently if we choose to. That is the American middle class way of life, and we are pleased to enjoy it.

Choose as you will.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

DougSabbag said:


> And we completely LOVE the 50 amps since we live onboard. Imagine trying to heat an all electric boat in Boston during the winter without at least 50 amps!
> 
> When we had a 35 amp boat, we had to constantly balance our electric usage... gee, do we want the microwave, or the water heater, or the refrigerators / battery charger, or the washer / dryer, or the space heaters, or ......... get's quite old.
> 
> ...


Well, the same thing can be accomplished with 2 30 amp cords, of course. One line dedicated to heat/AC, the other to the rest of the ship's service. That would be my choice, saves one the trouble of wrestling with a 50 amp cord, when a single 30 will do...

Twin 30 amp lines is a much more flexible setup, in my opinion... Plus, one can use both to double the length of one's shore cord if necessary, should one ever venture beyond marinas with power outlets within easy reach, and "the American middle class way of life" ...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Two 30 amp cords here. However, not wisely split between systems by the PO. Practically, they must both be connected. However, some things will work with only one. 

More ridiculous is that the stock boat gets only one 30 amp cord. Everyone commissions either a 50 amp upgrade or a second 30 amp.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

+1 on two 30amp. Trouble I have is can't run AC for long if off shore power without running a genset. Not much of an issue as I hate AC and engine noise. Wife gotten use to idea of running for ~1h just before sleep to get rid of humidity then turn off. Other than that no issues and when on shore power can run everything in the boat without issue.

?Doug- which washer/dryer do you have. We're plumbed for one and had a dedicated space designed into the build. I've been looking at the splendide figuring they're put in RVs and other setting so long term will be serviceable.

sorry for the highjack-hope it will be brief.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

You're not the only one, we make sail shy to the main for dousing kites or rolling the jib. I'll typically hand roll a few feet of the jib (1,100 sq ft) to avoid pulling a Paris. And, if you only use one or two wraps an lightly pull when the winch is spinning you'll know immediately if anything is hung. I would never wrap 6 parts around a winch, stick it in a feeder and stomp the button. Bad things can and will happen. It's not about strength, it's about being smart with the available power.



JonEisberg said:


> Well, perhaps it's just me...
> 
> In any amount of fresh breeze, a always try to bear off when reefing or furling, and maybe try to get the headsail in the shadow of the main, if possible... I generally find heading down, instead of heading up, to be far easier, and kinder to the sail... Again, with with a good furler, fair leads and a ratchet turning block, I should have no trouble on a 40 footer in moderate conditions...
> 
> One other "cutoff point" I forgot to mention, for me... I would never, ever want to own a sailboat that required a 50 amp shorepower cord... After as many years as I have running motor yachts and sportfishermen, I am SO done with those freakin' things...


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, the same thing can be accomplished with 2 30 amp cords, of course. One line dedicated to heat/AC, the other to the rest of the ship's service. That would be my choice, saves one the trouble of wrestling with a 50 amp cord, when a single 30 will do...
> 
> Twin 30 amp lines is a much more flexible setup, in my opinion... Plus, one can use both to double the length of one's shore cord if necessary, should one ever venture beyond marinas with power outlets within easy reach, and "the American middle class way of life" ...


OK, except many pedestals only have (1) 30 amp outlet. Then what do you do?
And I would rather deal with 1 shore power cord than 2. Even if the 1 is somewhat larger. Big deal. I can handle it.

Oh, and I have a 50 foot 220 / 50 amp cord, plus an old one too.... so, I can reach a long way for power, but *only have to do it once*.

Rock on.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

DougSabbag said:


> OK, except many pedestals only have (1) 30 amp outlet. Then what do you do?


Well, if I needed to run both 30 amp lines, I'd just pull out one of these...












DougSabbag said:


> And I would rather deal with 1 shore power cord than 2. Even if the 1 is somewhat larger. Big deal. I can handle it.
> 
> Oh, and I have a 50 foot 220 / 50 amp cord, plus an old one too.... so, I can reach a long way for power, but *only have to do it once*.
> 
> Rock on.


I'm glad you're happy with your preference for a larger boat, all I'm saying is that it is not one shared by everyone...

However, I'll freely admit, it sounds like I'd far happier with your boat, than you would be with a little tub like mine


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## Total Chaos (Jan 28, 2014)

Doug,
We strongly considered a CT56 and a CT65/Scorpio 72 before we bought our I65. Bob has such beautiful designs. 

As for us we are not ready to give any creature comforts up yet, and size is just to important for our crowd as of yet. If it was just the wife and I, I'm sure we could make do with considerably smaller. I seriously doubt I could convince my boss to ever give up this home though. 

Electrical is soooo fun... lol We have a 50amp and two 30amp and both 50htz and 60htz complete systems.


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