# Abby Sunderland - Search and Rescue



## swadiver (Jan 17, 2007)

All news radio station in Los Angeles reports:

"Major search and rescue effort underway in Indian Ocean for SoCal teen Abby Sunderland. Storm in the area. Emergency beacon activated."


----------



## n0w0rries (May 17, 2009)

*From my facebook*

Teen sailor Abby Sunderland focus of emergency rescue effort

A rescue effort has been launched in hope of finding Abby Sunderland, 16, who set off her emergency beacon locating devices from the southern Indian Ocean early this morning.

Sunderland, who had been attempting to sail around the world alone, endured multiple knockdowns in 60-knot winds yesterday (Thursday local time) before conditions briefly abated.

However, her parents lost satellite phone contact early this morning and an hour later were notified by the Coast Guard at French-controlled Reunion Islands that both of Sunderland's EPIRB satellite devices had been activated.

One apparently is attached to a survival suit and meant to be used when a person is in the water or a life raft.

Abby's father struggled with emotions and said he didn't know if his daughter was in a life raft or aboard the boat, or whether the boat was upside down.

"Everything seemed to be under control," Laurence Sunderland said. "But then our call dropped and a hour later the Coast Guard called."

Abby is hundreds of miles from land. The rescue effort is being coordinated by the Reunion Islands and Australia. Sunderland had been sailing in 50- to 60-foot seas and it was dark when the EPIRB devices were activated.

The Sunderlands are asking people to pray for their daughter, a high-school junior from Thousand Oaks, Calif.

Abby was for several months one of two 16-year-olds attempting to sail around the world alone. Australia's Jessica Watson completed her journey last month, just days before turning 17.

Abby's brother Zac, who graduated from high school, completed a solo-circumnavigation last summer at 17.

The timing of Abby's trip was criticized by some because it was placing her in the middle of the Indian Ocean when the stormy Southern Hemisphere winter was at hand.

-- Pete Thomas

Editor's note: This item also appears on the GrindTv.com Outdoors blog


----------



## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

Her web site:
http://www.abbysunderland.com/


----------



## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

Damn.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Man this sucks. It's the exact thing we've all been dreading.

God be with her and her family.


----------



## SourcetoSea (May 7, 2010)

Man, this doesn't look good.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Wow, sad - very sad  

I sincerely hope that this turns out OK and that she is found safe. I also hope that no harm comes to anyone involved in her rescue.

I went out on a limb in the Jessica Watson thread by saying that this "youngest sailor" contest should be discouraged. While I admire her ability, I do not respect her actions. Her brother Zac did it at 17, therefore she had to try it at 16. Soon there will be 10 year olds giving it a shot.

The involvement of sponsors, IMHO, makes this exploitation. In skimming the Jessica Watson thread I believe that I neglected to point out the mortal risk that this activity entails. All for the purpose of what; selling shoes at Shoe City? 







- Unbelievable.

Hopefully after she is home, safe and sound, people will stop promoting this nonsense.

Also, (and I did say this in the other thread) I hope that sponsors realize that I will not buy their products because of their sponsorship of these attempts, but despite it.

Here's hoping to an uneventful and successful rescue.


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Hope she's okay and that her rescue is quick and safe.


----------



## sailmdp (Jun 11, 2006)

*God be with her!!*

I have been following her track. Let's pray she is riding this out in a raft, with helicopters approaching her beacon!


----------



## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

This from SMSScott who is on Abby's team and help do repairs during both of her stops:

Between about 3:00 pm PDT and 5:00 pm PDT we had many very short broken calls from iridium phone from inside boat.

Abby had been Knocked Down several times in 60 Kts winds earlier in the day. Last Knock Down stripped radar from gimbaled mount on mast. There was slight amount of water in boat. No other damage was noted running backs were intact. A full damage survey had not been done yet outside.

She felt she was in good shape after these incidents. The main reason for the call was engine would not start. We got engine started and it was working OK. B&G wind instruments atop mast were still in working order she had 35 Kts wind and was sailing. Basically she felt all was OK.

Iridium dropped another call and we expected a quick call back as she had been doing for several hours. 30 minutes to 1 hour passed with no contact.

Then USCG called with first EPIRB deployment this was a manual EPIRB from inside cabin. Short time later Personal EPIRB was also activated. There is also a Class 1 automatic deployment EPIRB in cockpit that has not activated.

Just about the time of EPIRB activation it would have been getting dark.
She does have a life raft and survival suite.
Her last water temperature report June 5 was 54 degrees F and cabin was 60 degree F...since then she has reported a cabin temp of 65 degree F

Search and Rescue has been handed over to the French.

French navy vessel 2 1/2 days away has been diverted to EPIRB position. Fishing vessel 40 hours away has also been diverted to EPIRB location.

Initial EPIRB location was 557 NM NNE of PORT-AUX-FRANCIAS.

That is the extent of what we know.

This is the most full and complete info you will get from anywhere I was on the phone calls with her. If you hear anything else but this it is either not true or it is new info.


----------



## bb74 (Feb 11, 2009)

Stay with the boat - if I recall she was on a class 40 and most don't just sink. I hope everything is ok for her sake. Not the nicest place to be... 2 days away from any rescue is going to be long assuming they find the boat and her beacon... 

Not much else to day other than good luck!


----------



## creedence623 (Mar 8, 2006)

What can you say besides wishing for the best possible outcome. Will be following this one closely.


----------



## swadiver (Jan 17, 2007)

The latest from her Blog.....

"We spoke with Abby early this morning and learned that she had had a very rough day with winds up to 60 knots and seas 20-25 feet. She had been knocked down several times but was handling things well. The wind had subsided to around 35 knots which she and Wild Eyes are quite comfortable with. 

We were helping her troubleshoot her engine that she was trying to start to charge her systems. Satellite phone reception was patchy. She was able to get the water out of the engine and start her up. We were waiting to hear back from her when American Search & Rescue authorities called to report having received a signal from her emergency beacon (EPIRB). We initially thought that the signal was sent automatically from her water-activated EPIRB and that it had been activated during one of her knockdowns. As we pulled the paperwork from her EPIRB registration, we learned that the signal had come from her manually activated EPIRB. 

We were referred to Australian Search & Rescue and while we were on the phone with them another signal came in from her handheld PLB (Personal Locator Beacon). Her water-activated EPIRB has not been activated so we are hopeful that the boat is still upright. 

We are working closely with American, French and Australian Search & Rescue authorities to coordinate several ships in the area to divert to her location. There are several ships in her area, the earliest possible contact is 40 hours. We are actively seeking out some sort of air rescue but this is difficult due to the remoteness of her location. Australian Search & Rescue have arranged to have a Quantas Airbus fly over her location at first light (she is 11 hours later). They will not be able to help her other than to talk via marine radio if they are able to get close enough. Hopefully, they will be able to assess her situation and report back to us.

Abby has all of the equipment on board to survive a crisis situation like this. She has a dry suit, survival suit, life raft, and ditch bag with emergency supplies. If she can keep warm and hang on, help will be there as soon as possible. Wild Eyes is designed for travel in the Southern Ocean and is equipped with 5 air-tight bulkheads to keep her buoyant in the event of major hull damage. It is built to Category 0 standards and is designed to self-right in the event of capsize.

Thank you for all of your kind emails and calls. We appreciate your prayers and support.

We will update as soon as there is some news. 

Laurence, Marianne and Team Abby"


----------



## NCountry (May 25, 2006)

I know there will be a long discussion at some point about whether she should have been allowed to go regardless of the outcome. I'm a father and understand that parents worry about their kids. I worry about them walking across the street. I worry about the small cute one and how she's treated at day care. I worry about the step son when his dad tries to get him to jump a mound of dirt on a 4 wheeler. I worry about the oldest one now that he's in college and not home very much.
BUT to paraphrase an old saying.......
Better to have lived and lost than never to have lived at all.........
God Bless Abby for daring to live!......


----------



## MARC2012 (Mar 17, 2008)

Hope for a quick & safe rescue.marc


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

*Sailors*

know why she's out there. We need more kids like Abby. Our thoughts and hopes are with her.


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

NCountry said:


> I know there will be a long discussion at some point about whether she should have been allowed to go regardless of the outcome.


There has already BEEN a long discussion about whether she should have been allowed to go, a few threads on the young ladies, and I'm sure everyone has thoughts on it, but in typical Sailnet style people seem to be waiting for her to be rescued before dragging it all back out for debate.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

wind_magic said:


> There has already BEEN a long discussion about whether she should have been allowed to go, a few threads on the young ladies, and I'm sure everyone has thoughts on it, but in typical Sailnet style people seem to be waiting for her to be rescued before dragging it all back out for debate.


+1...


----------



## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Prayers on there way from Washington


----------



## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

I hope she is okay! Hopefully the fact that her automatic epirb didn't activate means her boat is still afloat, but possibly suffering some equipment failures.

I'll defend Abby Sunderland here by saying that despite her age she's far better equipped, and more experienced than most solo sailors of any age- including her brother Zac. There's a lot of inherent danger in this regardless of age. 

Joshua Slocum disappeared during a solo sail at age 65, after a lifetime of professional experience, and being the first person ever to complete a successful solo circumnavigation. A solo-circumnavigation is dangerous and risky as hell for anybody.


----------



## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

I truely believe this will turn out OK but it never hurts to throw in some prayers. May God protect Abby till help arrives.


----------



## ROSA (Oct 22, 2009)

Our Prayers are with you Abby!


----------



## SVlagniappe (Jun 22, 2008)

There are very few times that I miss the belief in god that I once possessed. This is one of those times. It would be nice to be able to think that there was something that you could do. To those of you that believe in prayer, pray hard!

I'll just send all of the positive energy I can (whatever that means...)

Steve


----------



## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

Personally, I'm trying to stay positive based on a few points......

1. Her boat reportedly has 5 water tight compartment doors which should help it stay afloat.

2. The automatic EPIRB which should trigger at a depth of 15 feet has not been activated. 

I'm hoping that the manual activations occurred accidentally during some sort of knock down or during a state of panic over conditions which then resolved themselves. Yeah, I'm holding onto threads here but it's all we have.

Gee, I hope this works out alright. 

Mike


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Yann Elies - 2008

Isabelle Autissier - 1999 

Tony Bullimore - 1997

None of them youngsters, all had to be rescued in similar location or at least lattitude. Really I think her age has bugger all to do with it. Like the other three were, she is in the wrong place at the wrong time.


----------



## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

According to reports, the rate of drift of the EPIRB's is about 1 knot. This suggests that either she lost the keel and is inverted or lost the rig, which is acting as a drogue. She's just coming out from under a 980 mb low and is North of a 940 mb one. The boat's well built with both watertight compartments and flotation. That will not stop the effects of free surface water (cold) surging from one end of the boat to the other with Abby caught in the midst. Exposure is her biggest enemy at the moment, even with a survival suit, assuming she could get it on...


----------



## Brian24jersey (May 18, 2010)

I may have missed this but what make and model was her ship

Aside from that I wish her the best, I would bet she activated both epirgs just in case one wasnt working, evidently the boat was still alfoat, hopefully the stormy activity doesnt hinder any rescue, but thoes navy guys will try there hardest afterall they are sailors also


----------



## SeaFever2000 (Sep 10, 2008)

I second MikeinLA's comments. Right now is the time to be positive and all of us need to send our positive vibes out.

She is a brave girl and she will survive this. Let us all pray for her safety.


----------



## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

She's in an Open 40.


----------



## swimnfit (Dec 2, 2008)

I have been following Abby since she set out. and as all would aggree, this is the worst of possibilities. Having spent a career in the Navy (albeit on ships) I have sailed the oceans around trhe world and know first hand the anger that a storm at sea far from shore can fester up. For this moment I offer the Navy Hymn... appropriate for any sailor in peril upon the sea.

Eternal Father, strong to save, 
Whose arm hath bound the restless wave, 
Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep 
Its own appointed limits keep; 
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee, 
For those in peril on the sea! Most Holy Spirit! Who didst brood 
Upon the chaos dark and rude, 
And bid its angry tumult cease, 
And give, for wild confusion, peace; 
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee, 
For those in peril on the sea! 



O Christ! Whose voice the waters heard 
And hushed their raging at Thy word, 
Who walked'st on the foaming deep, 
And calm amidst its rage didst sleep; 
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee, 
For those in peril on the sea! O Trinity of love and power! 
Our brethren shield in danger's hour; 
From rock and tempest, fire and foe, 
Protect them wheresoe'er they go; 
Thus evermore shall rise to Thee 
Glad hymns of praise from land and sea.


----------



## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Beautiful Swim...Thanks for sharing that.


----------



## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Amen, brother. Amen.


----------



## Dulcitea (Jan 15, 2010)

*Navy Hymn*

Thank you for reminding me of the "Navy Hymn." God Bless Abby and her family.The tune and all the versers of the Navy Hymn can be found at netymnal.org

"Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee, For those in peril on the sea!"


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

A positive sign is that there's no mention of her personal epirb and the boat's epirb drifting apart, so hopefully she is still with the boat.

Say what you will it takes a lot of guts to keep going after what she's been through. I just hope she's OK.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Hope.
I don't care what higher power you put your faith in, or what gods you believe in, but please toss out some positive thoughts. This woman has come too far, too hard, too long, to finish too short. Hold on, kid.


----------



## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

Amen brother.


----------



## SailingGeek (Jun 8, 2010)

*The location*

As CharlieCobra said, the latest word is that the boat is drifting backwards at around 1 knot. This indicates that yacht is not in an upright position.

Also it has been reported that the signals from both beacons are indicating the same position, and that she would have been unable to operate both the ship-board EPIRB and her personal PLB had she been away from the vessel. That is good news.

Her last known position was 34°53′09″S 74°31′53″E

Which I mapped here Abby Sunderland drifting EPIRB | BlooSee It is a VERY remote spot!


----------



## mtboat (Oct 14, 2007)

*Abby is found*

We have just heard from the Australian Search and Rescue. The plane arrived on the scene moments ago. Wild Eyes is upright but her rigging is down. The weather conditions are abating. Radio communication was made and Abby reports that she is fine!

We don't know much else right now. The French fishing vessel that was diverted to her location will be there in a little over 24 hours. Where they will take her or how long it will take we don't know.

More updates as news comes in.

Laurence & Marianne


----------



## SailingGeek (Jun 8, 2010)

*She's Fine*

Abby is fine!!! 

Just posted to her blog 3 minues ago. Details:

Abby's Blog: Abby is Fine!


----------



## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

Phew!!


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

That is very good news.


----------



## ChuckA (Dec 28, 2008)

Prayers answered! Lets all use common sense and be safe out there.


----------



## Capttman (Mar 4, 2010)

she has been found safe and well


----------



## Kiltmadoc (Nov 10, 2009)

Given that I have followed this story over the last few months, I am going to assume that Abby will repair the boat and move on. 

That said, for her solo attempt to "count" would she have to back-track from Australia to where she was dis-masted and then forge her way to the USA from there? Or, would she just take off from Australia and finish the journey, just for the heck of it?


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Kiltmadoc said:


> Given that I have followed this story over the last few months, I am going to assume that Abby will repair the boat and move on.
> 
> That said, for her solo attempt to "count" would she have to back-track from Australia to where she was dis-masted and then forge her way to the USA from there? Or, would she just take off from Australia and finish the journey, just for the heck of it?


I think she'll be shopping for a new boat. Wild Eyes is broken, 2000 miles from the nearest land. The rescue boat is going to pick up Abby not the boat.


----------



## Kiltmadoc (Nov 10, 2009)

midlifesailor said:


> I think she'll be shopping for a new boat. Wild Eyes is broken, 2000 miles from the nearest land. The rescue boat is going to pick up Abby not the boat.


Well, aside from THAT little detail....

OK, so assuming EVEN more: let's say they tow the boat and get it fixed; my question still applies. Would she have to back-track or can she keep going?

IMHO, what she has accomplished so far is amazing. I suspect that fewer people have done what she has attempted than have climbed Everest.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I actually got goosebumps on reading this good news!


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

"boat is built for the southern ocean" so.. and the rigging wasn't? Just goes to show..


----------



## SeaFever2000 (Sep 10, 2008)

Denise,

She faced very high seas and was knocked down several times. Thanks god she is safe. The boats will reach her Saturday. Her boat is upright and not taking on water. Abby has a space heater and 2 weeks worth of food.

Boats head to teen sailor drifting in Indian Ocean - Yahoo! News


----------



## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

Thank God she is safe.
So how is this going to play out? 
1. Rescue boat arrives, Abby goes aboard, rescue boat runs over Wild Eyes
which eliminates hazard to navigation? 
2. Rescue boat arrives, Abby talks them into lending a hand to get the mast
jury rigged so she can continue to a port?


----------



## jimjazzdad (Jul 15, 2008)

*Glad she is safe - what would you do?*

Very glad that Abby has been spotted from the air - is safe and awaiting rescue by a French fishing boat. Let's hope all goes well for her rescue.

Got me to thinking: what would I do (as a 50-something) and what would I do as a 16 year old? I think she made absolutely the right decision, switching on her EPIRP, given that her parents would be frantic at the loss of communication. Also, she may not have been prepared or able to effect a jury rig and limp to the next port.

But...as a mature sailor, I reckon you should always try to get out of a mess on your own, even if it increases the risk. One should never set off to sea without a complete emergency plan. To do so only wastes the time and risks the lives of your rescuers. The old adage is that "the boat can always take more than her people". A good boat will almost always get you home, if you are knowledgeable and well prepared. Eric and Susan Hiscock, the ground breaking English cruisers, were loath to have even a VHF onboard, lest they inconvenience or endanger others through their actions.

I'm not sure that others on the forum will agree, but youngsters like Abby would be well served to consider the days before EPIRBS and Satcomm...


----------



## jcalvinmarks (Mar 17, 2010)

Captainmeme said:


> Thank God she is safe.
> So how is this going to play out?
> 1. Rescue boat arrives, Abby goes aboard, rescue boat runs over Wild Eyes
> which eliminates hazard to navigation?
> ...


I've been listening to a Los Angeles radio station online, and the word is that she's packing up her belongings and preparing to abandon. But that's just scuttlebut, so take it for what it's worth.

It's a tough call. Can't really tow it 2,000 miles to the nearest good port, but you hate to just scuttle a boat like that when the hull is (as far as we know) still sound. Sounds like she's also having engine trouble, so I don't know that the jury rig with an undependable engine is any more palatable.


----------



## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

I am glad she is safe. I think what she has accomplished is monumental, at least compared to me. I am still dreaming of trying, she went for it. Think of the experiences and the stories she can tell. Alot of guts. The engine trouble could be a fouled prop due to the rigging in the water.


----------



## Jay2 (Feb 9, 2009)

Obviously they were well prepared safety wise. I am not sure who could pull up a whole mast out of the water by themselves in the middle of the ocean and then repair it. 

She went well prepared for most anything. It's not like she was forced to do this in an inferior boat with a cell phone and a compass. I have a hard time with the 'endangering the rescuers' thoughts in this case. Rescuers live for this kind of thing and voluntarily sign up to be a rescuer. She was in a 40' boat that is seaworthy and with lots of safety preperation. I think their route through a known bad weather area was a risk. I once was in a situation of rescue when I came across a backroad rollover at 2 a.m. and the guy was clinging to life and hammered drunk. That caused me allot of mental stress and worry keeping the guy going until help arrived 45 minutes later. The cause of the crash was due to driver error from intoxication and not because a moose ran in front of him. One cause is self induced and the other is out of your control but both are accidents. I am certainly not heartless enough to not help but I would hope that my efforts would be worthy of the rescued to make better decisions next time.

The thing that makes me wonder now is the global attention that it has gotten and her location and route. If she continues and the pirates catch wind of her route and timing she will be a big prize catch because of her age and her global attention. I hope she keeps going but maybe a little more weather cautious. There is no more rush, it was suppose to be non-stop and is not. She continued for pride and experience after the first equipment problems and I hope she continues from here if the boat is repairable.


----------



## jcalvinmarks (Mar 17, 2010)

Jay2 said:


> The thing that makes me wonder now is the global attention that it has gotten and her location and route. If she continues and the pirates catch wind of her route and timing she will be a big prize catch because of her age and her global attention.


I've heard the pirate concern several times, and I'm having a hard time getting there. She's 3,000 miles from Somalia, just north of Ile Amsterdam, way north of the Kerguelen Islands. She's at least 2,000 miles from where the Chandlers were taken by Somali pirates, in the Seychelles, and I remember the reaction being one of surprise that pirates were going as far afield as that.

It's my completely unprofessional, absurdly amateur, and dangerously uninformed opinion that she is way too far south to have to worry about pirates. Once (if) she rounds Australia and starts heading north towards California, then that might be a different story, maybe a little more in the range of Indonesian pirates. But for now, I think pirates should rank pretty low on the list of worries.


----------



## SSBN506 (Apr 18, 2008)

Glad she is safe that is by far the most important news. But I also hope the boat was insured if you can even get insurance for a trip like that.


----------



## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

I believe Wild eyes is deck stepped...there is no way for her to effect a sailabal Jerry rig by herself...3 25 year old men would have a massive challenge in flat water let alone in the seas she is in...Last time I tried to lasso a cloud for some added leverage it didn't work IIRC..

Towing wild eyes in those conditions would rip her apart as well...its a Grand day for the all important cargo.. 

Wild eyes will either have to fend for itself and be found by some future salver or be scuttled I'm afraid...Some food for thought about a possible portabal self sufficient solar powered AIS/GPS system to be able to track and avoid abandoned boats of this caliber for possible future retrieval, rather then scuttle them.

After all chances of hitting Wild Eyes is no greater then hitting a container...and few seem to think that's a risk worth worrying too much about.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm glad she's safe. God answered a lot of prayers.

I'll hold my tongue until she's back on land - but I hope like hell this puts an end to this youngest around crap.


----------



## SSBN506 (Apr 18, 2008)

I will give thanks to the boat builders for building a boat that can handle a demisting and not sinking and here personally for doing the right thing in what must have been a scary as hell situation. Cant give god all the credit.


----------



## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Yes you can..God created Mans brain...


----------



## SSBN506 (Apr 18, 2008)

Stillraining said:


> Yes you can..God created Mans brain...


Too bad at award shows they wouldn't just give one award to god and call it quits after that. It would save a lot of time.


----------



## ericread (Feb 23, 2009)

There's no doubt she did the right thing when she set off both of the manual EPRIBs which indicated she was in trouble, but still able to manage. The real question in my mind is the advice of her coach and advisors that encouraged her to sail the south atlantic at this time of year. It will be interesting to see if this was originally in her sail plan, or it was a result of pushing off to beat a silly "youngest sailor" record.

OK, I'm one of those "socialists" that argued she was too young to attempt this. I was wrong. She showed by her actions that she was very capable, and knew when to hang it up. Good for her! But the decision to head out from Madagascar at this time of year seems flawed at best, or foolhardy at worst. As a young person, I assumed she asked for and was provided advice by her onshore crew. It's the onshore crew that should be answering some questions.

At any rate, it was very heartwarming to hear she was OK, and I join everyone else in looking forward to her safe return.

Eric


----------



## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

Hmmm. Girl with moderate, conventional boat makes it around fine, girl with racing sled gets flipped and dismasted.

See here about halfway down.

Abby Sunderland vs. Jessica Watson - Sailing Solo at Sixteen | YachtPals.com


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

It's ironic that in the video still of Abby on that page her pointing finger is about 8 inches east of the spot she was dismasted.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

denise-
""boat is built for the southern ocean" so.. and the rigging wasn't? Just goes to show.."
I would venture to say that it is not feasible to build rigging that can withstand a high-speed high-impact contact with the ocean, which can be expected in rough conditions when a solo crew WILL be exhausted and unable to properly helm the boat. 
When you are young and invulnerable you may think you can last forever but some of us realize the ocean is stronger and never needs to sleep. Sooner or later, fatigue sets in and mistakes will be made. Add some darkness and the "need" to carry all speed in order to make that record, and it would be expectable that the boat would either broach, capsize, or pitchpole. At which point the sheer pressure of water against the sails will exceed whatever the rigging can take. Under bare poles, it might survive, but I'd bet her damage was from "water impact" against the sails, not a simple riging failure. (Yes, it IS too soon to speculate.)

I'm not that brave, at least not any more. I know that humans need to sleep and that fatigue is a thief that creeps up silently and then takes everything it pleases. Southern Ocean at the best of times? Solo maximum effort?

I sympathize but am not surprised at all that this happened. There really was no need for it, and now the taxpayers (in Oz and wherever) are going to foot her bill. Hardly fair, is it?


----------



## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

more from the press



> Ian Kiernan, an Australian sailor who has circumnavigated the globe, said it was "foolhardy" to enter the Indian Ocean during winter when weather conditions could deteriorate swiftly and present a mortal danger. Marty Still, an Australian who built the boat used by the teenage sailor Jessica Watson to successfully sail round the world earlier this year, said that Abby's team had chosen the wrong type of craft for the perilous crossing.
> 
> Read more: U.S. girl's failed trip around the world 'was insane'


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd have to agree that an Open 40 was a pretty poor choice for a 16 year-old girl to make a solo circumnavigation in. 

First, the boat isn't very seakindly. Second, the boat's reliance on high-tech electronics makes it far more vulnerable to failure. Third, she didn't have the boat very long prior to leaving for her circumnavigation and her unfamiliarity with the boat probably contributed to a lot of the problems she has experienced on the voyage. 

Jessica's choice of a S&S 34 was a much more sensible design for the voyage, as it is a proven single-handed cruising boat. Also, the fact that it can be steered with a mechanical wind-vane meant that it was far less reliant on electronics. Finally, Jessica was fully involved in refitting EPL and choosing the gear that was included in the refitting of the boat. She also had the boat for a far longer period of time and had much more experience with the boat than Abby did with Wild Eyes.


----------



## AKscooter (Jan 18, 2009)

I really enjoy this talk about the "young" being vulnerable and weak. Excuse me.....I worry more about the old codgers 35+ who lack the speed, stamina, recovery time, along with the eyesight acuity, and night vision acuity. The gal did what was prudent, she was the captain, and she has done more than most ever will. Play "arm chair" captain somewhere else.


----------



## NCountry (May 25, 2006)

hahaha that's great! "Old Codgers" arm chair captains.......... seriously though, and with a great deal of respect to my departed grandfather who at 93 was still full of widsom, wasn't Alexander the Great still a teenager when he almost took over the entire known world? So I stick with my original statement "Better to have lived and lost than never to have lived at all"
Good job Abby, you not only demonstrated sailing prowess but also the maturity to know when to ask for help! It's to bad the world can't follow your example of having the guts to try......


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

sailingdog said:


> I'd have to agree that an Open 40 was a pretty poor choice for a 16 year-old girl to make a solo circumnavigation in.
> 
> First, the boat isn't very seakindly. Second, the boat's reliance on high-tech electronics makes it far more vulnerable to failure. Third, she didn't have the boat very long prior to leaving for her circumnavigation and her unfamiliarity with the boat probably contributed to a lot of the problems she has experienced on the voyage.
> 
> Jessica's choice of a S&S 34 was a much more sensible design for the voyage, as it is a proven single-handed cruising boat. Also, the fact that it can be steered with a mechanical wind-vane meant that it was far less reliant on electronics. Finally, Jessica was fully involved in refitting EPL and choosing the gear that was included in the refitting of the boat. She also had the boat for a far longer period of time and had much more experience with the boat than Abby did with Wild Eyes.


This post is right on the money. And the irony is that Jessica's family probably put a fraction of the cost into it that Abby's family did.


----------



## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

35+? I really am hoping that you were joking...


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

NCountry said:


> hahaha that's great! "Old Codgers" arm chair captains.......... seriously though, and with a great deal of respect to my departed grandfather who at 93 was still full of widsom, wasn't Alexander the Great still a teenager when he almost took over the entire known world?


Actually Alexander was still sitting around arguing philosophy with Aristotle in the palace when he was 16 years old, then he became regent and stayed in the palace while his father went off to fight Byzantium. Alexander was 20 years old when he became king, died at 32.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

The parents say it was her dream. I'm not so sure. If I had to guess, I would guess that it was their dream and she didn't want to disappoint them. If you have followed this circus, it is clear that they never met a camera or a microphone they didn't like. As others have observed, they put her in a big, high-tech boat that had a lot of systems to break down and would be hard for even a 200 pound man to handle by himself. In contrast, the other sixteen year-old girl who just sailed around the world did it a much smaller, more proven and easier to handle boat.

Also, something that no one seems to be talking about is that piracy is a HUGE issue these days for world cruisers, particularly in the Indian Ocean where she ran into trouble. Sailors are routinely attacked, their boats taken and a teenage girl could be a very attractive target and it is not outside the realm of possibility that she could be raped or killed by the hooligan pirates frequenting this part of the world. It would not be the first time. Would you put your teen-age daughter at risk in this way? I hope not.

Sixteen year-olds can be tough, strong, smart, bold and other things that could make them good solo sailors in some ways. But it is scientifically proven that mature judgment does not develop until a kid reaches their twenties. Teenagers in most cases have better coordination and strength than older folks but consistently get into more accidents than older folks for these very reasons. 

I personally see no excuse for putting your kid in harm's way in this manner. Being a parent is a difficult exercise in balancing the encouragement of their dreams and aspirations and, quite simply, against your parentla duty to protect them from harm. My belief is that these parents are first class jerks who, at best, allowed her to pursue something that she isn't experienced enough to pursue without real danger or, at worst, put her at substantial risk to gratify their own desire for attention and fame.


----------



## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

Teen Sailor's Rescue Raises Safety, Expense Issues : NPR


----------



## SeaFever2000 (Sep 10, 2008)

I know a lot of people here have a lot of experience and also a lot of opinions. When things go wrong everybody has an opinion. Can we leave the critique for after she is rescued and is safe?

For goodness sake, can't you guys hold off and be positive for 2 days?!


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

SeaFever2000 said:


> I know a lot of people here have a lot of experience and also a lot of opinions. When things go wrong everybody has an opinion. Can we leave the critique for after she is rescued and is safe?
> 
> For goodness sake, can't you guys hold off and be positive for 2 days?!


I couldn't be happer that it looks good that she is going to come through this in one piece. And I have to admit that I held off on expressing some of these thoughts until it looked like she is safe. But I don't have a problem with people expressing their opinions while people are actually thinking about it, rather than waiting till no one is talking or reading about it.


----------



## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

CB

as the parent of a twenty year old, we disagree about parental duties...

it matters not that she is not the 200lb person, that you think is required to single hand (think SEAL....ever see a 200lb one??), she is a capable sailor who could mange the boat...17 years old or not, she made it a fair way around with no problems, this one not withstanding. I would submit that many 200 lb men would be brought to tears physically and emotionally if forced to do what she has chosen to do...

As a parent it is my job to open my kid's eyes, encourage him to be all that he can be, to stretch his limits, to learn consequences, and to handle failure, pain and disappointment. In short to encourage him to live life to the fullest. If you and yours want to protect or shelter your kid(s), that is fine by me...but don't even think about forcing me to raise my kid like you raise (or want to) yours.

As to Piracy, be real...even the stupidest of pirates is not going to be able to mount an attack in the 40-50's... MY guess is that she would be way more at risk in any large american city or going in and out of the marinas...than what she MAY encounter out on the open ocean.

Where is the scientific proof that her judgement is any worse than an adult in similar situations. My experience is that many teens FAR surpass many adults as regards judgement...in this case you surely underestimate the girl and the family. 

The family nor the parents "are jerks", they just behave differently and have different ideas about how to raise THEIR daughter and spend their hard earned money.

Abby has earned my respect and I certainly would enjoy meeting her and hearing about her adventure.

OBTW, I am very happy that they are heading that way....


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

kd3pc said:


> CB
> 
> as the parent of a twenty year old, we disagree about parental duties...
> 
> ...


I think there are some misunderstandings evident in your post. First, I made no comment regarding your parenting skills (nor did I know you were a parent). I would suggest that it is presumptuous of you to feel that you know enough about me to criticize mine.

As to the piracy issue, are you saying that her whole trip was going to be in the 40s and 50s? That certainly wasn't my understanding. My understanding was that she was going to circumnavigate the world. Of course there are no pirates in the forties and fifties in the dead of winter, because there generally is no one there at all this time of year except, perhaps, for the children of demonstrated publicity seekers.

BTW, I have not been as critical of Jessica's endeavor (although she, too, almost perished in an accident) because her parents didn't send her out in the middle of the winter (so she could beat a meaningless record by a few days) and sent her out in a proven boat much more suitable to her skills.

Your divination of my parenting philosophy may not be as accurate as you think. I will use an example from my own youth. When I was 17 I graduated high school. Me and a few of my dopey buddies wanted to buy motorcycles and go cross-country. My parents said no but allowed us to buy a New York City mail van for $750 and make the trip, which we did. Were my dreams crushed when I was told that I couldn't do it on two wheels? I'm sure I was pretty unhappy about it at the time but with the wisdom of age I realize that they may have been protecting me from my own immaturity and lack of developed judgment. I had a great trip that I will always remember. They protected me and let me have an adventure at the same time. I would respectfully submit that a parent whose primary concern is to allow their sixteen year old to pursue her dream (if it was, indeed, her dream), no matter how dangerous, is not really doing his or her job.

And where did I say that I wanted to force you to raise your kids in any particular way? I must have missed that part of my post.

Oh, and by the way, I got a chuckle about your comment that they chose to spend their hard earned money differently than I. Unfortunately, it's not just their hard earned money but that of Australia's taxpayers too, due to their poor decisionmaking. Possibly in the hundreds of thousands by now.

And just to clarify: I have nothing but respect for Abby and her accomplishments. I am not saying that I would not want to meet her. I am sure she is a strong and intelligent person and will probably benefit from this adventure. As they say, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

> Where is the scientific proof that her judgement is any worse than an adult in similar situations. My experience is that many teens FAR surpass many adults as regards judgement...in this case you surely underestimate the girl and the family.


I didn't think this was a particulary controversial proposition. Of course, it may not be true in all cases, and Abby certainly comes across as a very mature girl, but there is a lot of scholarship that suggests that judgment is one of the last brain functions to develop in teenagers. Here are two articles that discuss this in general terms.

http://www.actforyouth.net/documents/may02factsheetadolbraindev.pdf

http://www.des.emory.edu/mfp/302/302Steinberg.pdf


----------



## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

After reading the comments on her website- the majority of which are negative critiques of her abilities and the parenting abilities of her mom and dad. I couldn't help but throw in a jab from the other side of the fence. If I am not mistaken, she is 17 years old. Now, there is really (subjectively) not a whole lot of difference between a 16 year old and an 18 year old. Yet at 16, you or anyone else can jump in a Mustang and drive from Washington State to Miami Florida averaging 70 mph+ and surrounded by bad drivers, good drivers, drunks and shady people at convenience stores....Danger is both relative and subjective. Not to mention, when I was 17 I joined the Army and was fighting a war 6 months later. Danger in that world was not only possible accidentally, but people were actively trying to kill me.....Is there really a difference between my experience at 17 and hers? You tell me. Were my parents bad parents by allowing me to join the United States Army? 16 years later I don't think so....On to other things...

Was her boat not an Open 40? Which is a Ocean Race boat designed for a crew? In my limited knowledge I believe that boat is designed to go fast- not to protect her crew or heave to effectively. Jessica did it in an S&S 34, from what I am told a boat better suited to weather rough seas and protect her crew. It will be interesting to find out what actually happened out there. Maybe we can all learn something from it. 

One other thing does come to mind though regarding a persons age; though this may be presumptuous because we don't know what happened yet, a 16 year old when faced with a broken mast and no engine turns on the EPIRB. A 40 year old jury rigs....either the sail or the engine. Guess we will have to wait and see. Glad she is OK though.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

alanr77 said:


> After reading the comments on her website- the majority of which are negative critiques of her abilities and the parenting abilities of her mom and dad. I couldn't help but throw in a jab from the other side of the fence. If I am not mistaken, she is 17 years old. Now, there is really (subjectively) not a whole lot of difference between a 16 year old and an 18 year old. Yet at 16, you or anyone else can jump in a Mustang and drive from Washington State to Miami Florida averaging 70 mph+ and surrounded by bad drivers, good drivers, drunks and shady people at convenience stores....Danger is both relative and subjective. Not to mention, when I was 17 I joined the Army and was fighting a war 6 months later. Danger in that world was not only possible accidentally, but people were actively trying to kill me.....Is there really a difference between my experience at 17 and hers? You tell me. Were my parents bad parents by allowing me to join the United States Army? 16 years later I don't think so....On to other things...
> 
> Was her boat not an Open 40? Which is a Ocean Race boat designed for a crew? In my limited knowledge I believe that boat is designed to go fast- not to protect her crew or heave to effectively. Jessica did it in an S&S 34, from what I am told a boat better suited to weather rough seas and protect her crew. It will be interesting to find out what actually happened out there. Maybe we can all learn something from it.
> 
> One other thing does come to mind though regarding a persons age; though this may be presumptuous because we don't know what happened yet, a 16 year old when faced with a broken mast and no engine turns on the EPIRB. A 40 year old jury rigs....either the sail or the engine. Guess we will have to wait and see. Glad she is OK though.


All good points.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

kd3pc said:


> CB
> 
> as the parent of a twenty year old, we disagree about parental duties...
> 
> ...


Just reread my original post. Perhaps "first class jerks" was a little strong. Without knowing them or their motivations maybe I am judging them a bit harshly. From what I've seen, however, I still would question their judgment.


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Peoples....

Yes it is good news she looks to be safe. Fine and dandy.

and it is your choice as to whether you believe <insert your choice of deity> was responsible or if in fact it was nowt but good luck.

But

If you wish to discuss the religious implications, start a new thread in Off Topic.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Lats and Atts summed it up well, I thought:


The tremendous news is that 16-year-old Abby Sunderland of Thousand Oaks, who set off two EPIRBs deep in the Southern Ocean yesterday from her Open 40 _Wild Eyes_, has been located in good health by a Qantas airliner chartered by the Australian government. While her boat, which has five watertight compartments, has been dismasted, Sunderland reported over the VHF that she was in good shape. Hopefully she can stay that way for the next 24 to 36 hours until one of three French fishing boats, whose crews presumably have better things to do than risk their lives rescuing fame-struck teenage girls, can save her. Word is expected at any moment from stage parents Laurence and Marianne Sunderland that the very first proceeds from their daughter's upcoming book and movie deals will be used to generously compensate the crews and owners of the fishing boats who are risking their own lives to save their daughter's.
There is delicious irony in the Australian government - and therefore Aussie taxpayers - coughing up the dough to charter the Qantas plane that found Sunderland. It was less than one month ago that most Aussies, and their blow-in-the-wind political leaders such as Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, went ga-ga over 16-year-old Aussie Jessica Watson's having become the youngest person to have almost sailed around the world non-stop and singlehanded. (Her course was a little too short to meet the criteria, but who wants to split hairs?) One wonders how many times Rudd and his countrymen and women will be willing to charter Qantas jets to find 16-year-olds eager to put it all on the line in search of a spot on the cover of _People_ magazine before the practice becomes old and overly expensive.
The reaction of Abby's parents - who, based on public opinion, seem to be frontrunners for 'Worst Parents of the Year' honors - to the possibility that their young daughter might be dead was illuminating. They seemed to think that if Abby had died, well, all of life is a risk, and she could just as easily have been killed on the 405. Boy, who wouldn't love to get into a poker game with folks who calculate the odds the way they do? And to think they would ante up their daughter's life making such a bet. And make no mistake, none of this "Abby's lifetime dream since she was 13" rubbish would have been possible without the undying commitment and encouragement of her parents.
As we read many of the comments to various media about Sunderland's EPIRBs going off, we were reminded of how ignorant - perhaps understandably so - the general public is about sailing and sailing around the world in particular. Most astounding were the number of commenters who believed that Sunderland had been picked off by Arab pirates! Indeed, some thought she had become a victim of the white slave trade as opposed to the weather. Little did they realize that icebergs were a 1,000 times greater threat to Abby than were pirates. Others speculated on how difficult it was going to be to find Sunderland, given that the area she was in - between Antarctica, South Africa and Australia - is as big as Russia. Not quite clear on the near pinpoint accuracy of EPIRBs and GPS, are we?
What many sailors don't even seem to realize is the amount of risk that Sunderland's parents were willing to expose their daughter to. After all, there are ho-hum circumnavigations, and then there are difficult circumnavigations. Abby's brother Zac's trip around was the former. Shepherded by his parents at great expense, he went around on a route that many people have done on tight budgets and without any assistance. Heck, Berkeley's Serge Testa did it on a homebuilt 12-footer. Such circumnavigations are not to be sneezed at, but they normally aren't that hard. The difference is that most circumnavigators don't make such a big deal of it, such as spending the last night at Emerald Bay on Catalina in order to give the press a chance to congregate for the really big media fest at Marina del Rey the next day.
As we've written before, Abby's circumnavigation was like climbing Mt. Everest compared to Zac's, which was like climbing Mt. Tam. Her attempt was to not only be non-stop, but non-stop via the Southern Ocean. That 16-year-old Jessica Watson was able to accomplish that is a truly remarkable feat, and a credit to both her and the durability and reliability of her S&S 34 _Ella's Pink Lady_. As silly and completely stupid as we think age-based record setting is, there is no denying what Watson accomplished.
In order to get into the non-existent record book - World Speed Sailing Association as well as Guiness and many others won't accept age-based records because of the risks - Abby had to start her circumnavigation at the wrong time or she would be too old. When you sail around the world, even the easy way, you do it by the seasons. That's even more important when going around the hard way. When the great maxi French mulithulls attempt around the world records, their window is always November to about March. Why? Because as Adrienne Cahalan, navigator on _Playstation_'s record circumnavigation said, "You don't sail in the Southern Ocean in the winter." You just don't do it. Not the Volvo, not the Vendée, not The Race, not nobody. If the world's greatest sailors will wait a full year just to stay out of the Southern Ocean in winter - when there are gales 30% of the time as opposed to 5% of the time in summer - you'd think the parents of a 16-year-old minor would make their daughter do the same. But then more than a few parents have been blinded by the lure of the possibility of their child becoming famous.
From the ghetto, Fiddy Cent rapped that he was going to "Get rich or die tryin'." We suppose this is the Thousand-oh-so-close-to-Hollywood-Oaks' version, which might be titled 'Get famous or die tryin'. We're sure glad Abby didn't die. As for becoming famous, she's gotten even more of it than she could have dreamed of. In fact, you have to feel sorry for Watson who, despite being the one who actually accomplished her goal, has now been upstaged by Abby's failure. In the minds of experienced sailors, however, we think Abby Sunderland is going to be famous, not for her sailing, but for having been played for the fool by her irresponsible parents.
Of course, all this is just our opinion. If yours is different, or you think we're just an old grouch, we'd love to hear from you. Email your well-reasoned thoughts to Richard, but please be succinct, as lots of people will want to weigh in on the subject.
_- latitude / rs_​


----------



## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

Let's hope this little fiasco puts and end to such things


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Holy schmidt, lighten up, dockhuggers! Quit playing the green- with -envy -jealousy card. She bought in, played the cards she weas dealt, didn't take home the big prize, but didn't leave the table.

Frankly she has earned the BFS prize for 2010. Y'all can flap your hands and whinge about whether her parents are publicity whores and whether she shoudl have left the dock and whether she should foot the bill for her rescue and yadda- chickenshlitz -yadda-oh-no-an-adolesecent-girl-has-more-balls-than-I-do...
Bottom line is we all wish we did what she is doing. If you don't wish for an Abby style adventure, please sell your sailboat and buy a nice condo in Boca Raton... or a SeaRay.

Living scared ain't living.

Smack, feel free to use that line as a BFS bumper sticker.


----------



## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

bljones said:


> Holy schmidt, lighten up, dockhuggers! Quit playing the green- with -envy -jealousy card. She bought in, played the cards she weas dealt, didn't take home the big prize, but didn't leave the table.
> 
> Frankly she has earned the BFS prize for 2010. Y'all can flap your hands and whinge about whether her parents are publicity @#!*% and whether she shoudl have left the dock and whether she should foot the bill for her rescue and yadda- chickenshlitz -yadda-oh-no-an-adolesecent-girl-has-more-balls-than-I-do...
> Bottom line is we all wish we did what she is doing. If you don't wish for an Abby style adventure, please sell your sailboat and buy a nice condo in Boca Raton... or a SeaRay.
> ...


yada, yada. Look, sailing in the Southern Ocean in the beginning of winter isn't "following your dream", it's just plain dumb. Watson took the right boat and went at the right time- Smart.

Note how the two trips ended differently.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SeaFever2000 said:


> I know a lot of people here have a lot of experience and also a lot of opinions. When things go wrong everybody has an opinion. Can we leave the critique for after she is rescued and is safe?
> 
> For goodness sake, can't you guys hold off and be positive for 2 days?!


Being positive is one thing. And I have been. But being false is another.

These parents are freakin' idiots...as were the parents of Laura Dekker.,,,Jessica Watson....and anyone else who would shove their minor child off on their own for a RTW voyage.

I fully appreciate the "right to adventure" - but this for the record crap is ridiculous. Take the kid around yourself if it's so damn important. Parents that abdicate their responsibility because a pubescent chump "wants" to do it? Give me a break.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> Frankly she has earned the BFS prize for 2010.
> 
> Living scared ain't living.
> 
> Smack, feel free to use that line as a BFS bumper sticker.


Sorry dude. That ain't BFS - that's SAR. Big diff.


----------



## proflyer (Aug 13, 2007)

I am amazed at all the negativity. having raised a daughter who did every adventurous event that was possible, I think that if Abby was my daughter 
I would be proud of her achievements. She tried and it did not work out but she (and her parents) have nothing to be ashamed of.
That's the way I see it.


----------



## sab30 (Oct 11, 2006)

Are there actual updates as to the progress of the rescue as opposed to the "politics" of the event?


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Nice to know what your limits are, smack. So, as long as an EPIRB isn't sent then it is a BFS, but once one flips the EPIRB switch , it crosses the line? 

Okay, how about this for a bumper sticker:
BFS= Sorta scary, but safe.

Somre of us like to sniff and pontificate from dockside about who should pay for the search and rescue, how it is idiocy for a teenage girl to be out on her own, and how irresponsible her parents are and....

As a parent of adolescents, if any of my kids expressed an interest in following their dreams, then I figure my job as a parent os to sdupport them and guide them toward success. If my kids told me they wanted to sail aroudn the world, I'd happily support them. Given a choice between supporting my kids' dreams and trying to rescue them from a nightmare that was created because they din't think anyone was in their corner and they had no dreams.

Boats are cheaper than rehab. 
(Now THAT is a bumper sticker!)
And they usually produce better results.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Pro - to me it's not negativity, it's law. How this doesn't qualify as child endangerment/neglect is beyond me. Maybe it's the 16 limit, maybe it's her turning 17 during the voyage...I don't know.

If this wasn't a minor - I'd have no problem with it. And it's not diminishing her or her accomplishments. It's diminishing her parents' judgments and motivations in their legal responsibilities to her. Remember, she's a _minor_.

Until the law is changed defining what a "minor" is - I'll personally have a problem with it...especially when the parents are dolts.

Here's a good definition of what I'm talking about:



> Age of majority is a legal definition that means that a person is legally an adult, and responsible for the majority of his or her actions. No one can be held legally responsible for all of their actions - for example, getting sick or dying is out of all of our hands. Therefore, the law considers us responsible only for the majority of our actions.
> 
> This term is directly related to one that is more familiar. Most of us recognize "minors" as another word for children. Legally, the term "minor" indicates that a person is still in the "age of minority" which means that he or she is only legally responsible for the minority of actions. The parents or legal guardians are responsible for the majority of children's actions.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> I'm glad she's safe. God answered a lot of prayers.
> 
> I'll hold my tongue until she's back on land - but I hope like hell this puts an end to this youngest around crap.


My feelings too. Whether it's Mt. Everest, circumnav, whatever. Unless someone puts a stop to it, this "youngest do to" crap will inevitably push younger and younger children into foolish risks under the pressure of parents looking to cash in on our "reality TV" culture.

I have not followed any of the threads on these kids, or news coverage of the kids trying to do Everest, or any of the countless blogs. I get a sick feeling over these new shows giving "breaking news" on these things, because I know that they are the ones fueling the interest which leads to more abuse.

Sorry to be a spoil sport. I love sailing, and I admire people who set goals to do great things. But you've got a whole life to meet these goals. Don't cut your life short trying to break a meaningless record.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> Nice to know what your limits are, smack. So, as long as an EPIRB isn't sent then it is a BFS, but once one flips the EPIRB switch , it crosses the line?
> 
> Okay, how about this for a bumper sticker:
> BFS= Sorta scary, but safe.


Dude, this is like kindergarten here. I must once again turn your attention to the Philosophy of the Stones:

1. One-Part Zest for Adventure and Excitement (left-hanging)
2. One-Part Desire to Push One's Self Beyond One's Limits (right-hanging)
3. One-Part Brain (just above and center)

When one employs the proper mixture of the three, you get the likes of Charlie, Valiente, GeorgeB, Knothead, etc. Epic voyages, great attitudes, great lessons, exciting sailors.

When, one relies only on 1-2, you get the inevitable SOS, next-of-kin notification.

Southern Ocean in winter? Serious lack of 3.

See, you have to sail back home for it to count as a BFS. If you get basketed, that's SAR. That's lack of 3. Sorry, no soup for you!

And as for "sorta scary", I don't know about you, but CharlieCobra's BFS looked pretty damn scary to me. Maybe not to you?



bljones said:


> Boats are cheaper than rehab.
> (Now THAT is a bumper sticker!)
> And they usually produce better results.


+1.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

This book inspired me three decades ago. It must have simply scared you.

oooooh, a minor doing what he believed he could do! Quick, call the social Workers!
To reiterate, so everyone is clear: if one of my kids expressed an interest in sailing around the world, I would happily bust my ass to help them fulfill their dream. Given the other choices they could make, such as tweeting, texting, navel-gazing, smoking pot, etc., I'd much rather allow my kids to risk their lives in the process of achieving something as opposed to wasditn their lives achieving nothing ...but being safe.

Life ain't no dress rehearsal.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bl - it's your kid(s) and you can do anything you want.

The bottom line is that RLG made it, so did most of the other kids. But when one of them dies what do you think is going to happen from a legal perspective? Seriously?

That's the basic problem in all this. If you want to give Abby that individualistic dream-fulfillment you speak of - then also give her the _sole responsibility_ to go with it.

Would you say that as a "capable skipper" with a "lifelong dream" (of 3 years) of doing this, she made a sound, mature decision to sail into the Indian Ocean in the middle of winter?


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Smack, first, the first week of June is not "the middle of winter" in the southern ocean.
Second, show me how her age and/or her sex had absolutely any bearing on what happened. I admit that I am no metallurgist, and defintiely no engineeer or physiscist, but something tells me that statistically age and gender has little bearing on the frequency of rig failure and demasting.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> Smack, first, the first week of June is not "the middle of winter" in the southern ocean.
> Second, show me how her age and/or her sex had absolutely any bearing on what happened. I admit that I am no metallurgist, and defintiely no engineeer or physiscist, but something tells me that statistically age and gender has little bearing on the frequency of rig failure and demasting.


Okay, first of winter, Monsieur Hair Splitter.

Her age had nothing to do with the dismasting itself. That's obvious. But her age had everything to do with your "dream" argument.

_She_ made the decision to sail into what, from everything I've seen/read about this, were demonstrably horrible conditions. Conditions that, as the article above points out, even the VOR, Vendee, et al sailors avoid.

That was a horrible decision...obviously. It was that decision that lead to her dismasting, SAR, and eventual rescue.

Why did you think she made that decision?


----------



## PierreMundo (Nov 29, 2007)

Hi Smack, long time no see!

Good points made on both sides. The best one is that we don’t have to look for the right boat and weather window. We’ll see what happens out there. 
Choice of season, boat and strength of crew are clearly not that important. Just bring your Phone and EPIRB. 

And for Abby, I’m looking forward to see you safe at home.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

When you have as few hairs as I do, you tend to split as many as possible.

It may have been a bad decision, but "horrible"? I dunno. the boat is still floating, she still has a pulse. Why did she make that decision? Again, I dunno. I am not Kreskin, I don't read minds. It certainly wasn't to be the "youngest" becauase that prize was lost when Jessica Watson made it home. Maybe it was just piss poor planning. If itrwas then it is no different than 90% of all BFS's. Have you noticed that the majority of BFS posts start off sounding like a letter to Penthouse "Forum'? "I never thought it could happen to me, but there I was..."


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Hah! Pierre, dude! I KNEW you'd show up on this one!

Good to see you around.

Seriously, I am amazed that they found the boat in the first 10 minutes of searching. EPIRBS rock!


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> When you have as few hairs as I do, you tend to split as many as possible.
> 
> It may have been a bad decision, but "horrible"? I dunno. the boat is still floating, she still has a pulse. Why did she make that decision? Again, I dunno. I am not Kreskin, I don't read minds. It certainly wasn't to be the "youngest" becauase that prize was lost when Jessica Watson made it home. Maybe it was just piss poor planning. If itrwas then it is no different than 90% of all BFS's. Have you noticed that the majority of BFS posts start off sounding like a letter to Penthouse "Forum'? "I never thought it could happen to me, but there I was..."


Well, I honestly have to give you the BFS hair-splitting thing. It is a very fine line between celebrating sailing that pushes limits and not sailing that requires the EPIRB. I can't defend it as cleanly as I'd like. But who cares? Most people get it.

But I will say that I do think this whole youngest-round thing has been repulsive. RLG did while no one was looking (with no corporate logos) - THEN he wrote a book and inspired your bald head.

The times they are a changin'.


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Not that it has anything to do with anything, but Dove was dismasted twice during that trip, both times the captain jury rigged her and sailed to a port to make repairs, once over 2000 miles while in the Indian ocean.


----------



## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Well, I honestly have to give you the BFS hair-splitting thing. It is a very fine line between celebrating sailing that pushes limits and not sailing that requires the EPIRB. I can't defend it as cleanly as I'd like. But who cares? Most people get it.
> 
> But I will say that I do think this whole youngest-round thing has been repulsive. RLG did while no one was looking (with no corporate logos) - THEN he wrote a book and inspired your bald head.
> 
> The times they are a changin'.


Smacker,

How goes it in smackville.
I think (just my view) this comment of yours is a little off track.
I feel "sailing that pushes limits" has nothing to do with offshore or solo stuff. Going fast is great but ...
An epirb is a radio beacon - not a safety line to home. No guarantees.

We will soon know how she is. All the world is waiting by the radio or the internet to hear she is _safe_.

_Ok in hindsight ,I should have read a few of your posts, but I'll leave it as it is - jump in headfirst, stir you up a bit, smacktanic style!!_


----------



## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

I dunno. Some of you seem to want the parents heads on a platter. Second guessing everything from the choice of boat to the time of year to whether she should have bee allowed to go at all. I think there were a lot of choices made in this trip, and we all know that EVERY choice is a compromise of some sort. I like BBQ beans, but they give me gas. So the choice of whether to have beans with my sandwich boils down to several factors. Are we having the neighbors over for dinner? Will I be playing bachelor tonight? The same kind of choices went into the decisions made for and with Abby. Her goal was to sail solo nonstop around the world. I would contend that the choice of boat made sense. If I were sailing solo around the world, I would want to make it the fastest trip possible. That eliminates a lot of cruising boats, no matter what anyones opinion of their seaworthiness. I can't say what factors went into the decision to sail this time of year in that ocean, but I'm sure there were a lot of things to consider that we are not privvy to.

As far as the parents letting her do it, I don't see the problem. Some of the same people who cheered her brother on, think this is child abuse. Zac did it, and not without his share of trouble. I have to believe that the Sunderland's would not put their daughter out there any less prepared than they put Zac out to sea. So they've got a very well prepared daughter in a well prepared boat that was selected with the best intentions to do the job at hand. What are they going to tell her? You can't go because you're a girl and your brother has one of those hangy downy things that makes him more qualified?

The bottom line is that we can all play armchair quarterback on monday morning. She is safe now because she was in a boat that was capable of keeping her safe (even if the boat can't continue), and because she had the skill to handle that boat up until the point of not being able to continue. Then she had the sense to know the exact moment that she would not be able to continue and called for help. There are countless cases of grown men being rescued (and many lost) because they went to sea in un-seaworthy vessels, were unprepared for the sea, and didn't have the sense to call it quits when it was clearly time to call it quits. Perhaps we should draw and quarter their parents for not teaching them better.


----------



## xsboats (Oct 2, 2007)

Many of us love to live our lives vicariously through these outstanding achievements of others. Why is it that when they meet with impassable complication [I refuse to use the words defeat or failure] that our views of their accomplishments often turn to that of scorn , condemnation , and a general attitude of "I told you so!" If we condemn them, we might as well condemn all people's reasons to go to sea. If they are to be considered to be crackpots, daredevils, thrill seekers, etc... then what are we in the eyes of non-mariners. Thank you , Abby , for not staying home so you could Twitter your friends about your new highest video game score. We need more young people[and old alike] who are willing to live their lives with a real passion .


----------



## jcalvinmarks (Mar 17, 2010)

Okay, geez, I've tried to ignore it, but I can't ignore it any more.

This concept that her very being out there is somehow improper is ludicrous. Yes, her father seems like a bit of a ham, but nobody forced her to go out there (tin-foil-hat half-baked conspiracy theories notwithstanding). She's an accomplished sailor, and she has every right to go to sea, particularly if her parents consent. You can think that her parents' judgment was lacking, and that's fine. You can second-guess her route and her timing, that's fine. But this vitriolic maligning of her and her parents and this blanket condemnation of the idea of youth sailing records is absurd.

And the idea that she or her parents ought to be liable for the cost of the rescue is especially ridiculous. She wasn't doing anything illegal, she was in genuine distress, and they dispatched a rescue operation. That's (part of) why countries have Coast Guards and Search and Rescue responders. To help mariners in distress. Because she's 16 she's not entitled to assistance when in need? It would be one thing if she activated an EPIRB because she broke a fingernail. Or if she got a jellyfish sting and it _really_ hurt! But she broke the mast on her boat, and was unable to communicate with anyone. I've heard of people in far less perilous situations being rescued, and I don't recall anyone calling for them to pay up.

So someone please tell me, what is the age? Clearly it isn't 16 or 17. I mean, that would be silly to let a 16-year-old sail a boat in a wide open ocean. We'll give them high-powered automobiles and turn them loose in traffic, but for God's sake don't let them go to sea! Is it 18? If she was 18 would it be okay then? I mean, she can legally sign a contract at 18, so surely that's old enough. She still can't buy alcohol in this country through, so I guess she's not old enough for everything at 18. So what about 21? Once she's 21, maybe that's the magic threshold. I've known 21-year-olds I wouldn't trust to look after a houseplant, but because of some arbitrary number of years old, those people are legitimately able to set out to circumnavigate the world in the eyes of the nay-sayers, but this accomplished, albeit quite young, sailor can't?

And for the love of God, she hasn't even been picked up yet, and you people are already trying to crucify her!


----------



## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

Very well said.


----------



## johnnyandjebus (Sep 15, 2009)

jcalvinmarks said:


> Okay, geez, I've tried to ignore it, but I can't ignore it any more.
> 
> This concept that her very being out there is somehow improper is ludicrous. Yes, her father seems like a bit of a ham, but nobody forced her to go out there (tin-foil-hat half-baked conspiracy theories notwithstanding). She's an accomplished sailor, and she has every right to go to sea, particularly if her parents consent. You can think that her parents' judgment was lacking, and that's fine. You can second-guess her route and her timing, that's fine. But this vitriolic maligning of her and her parents and this blanket condemnation of the idea of youth sailing records is absurd.
> 
> ...


Very well said indeed

As to who pays the cost? There are some very basic maritime laws that say if you can help a sailor in distress you do. If we go down the road of handing out bills for the cost of rescue we start to mess with very well established rules that have been in place a long time, a very bad idea.
It seems to me if, thru our tax dollars, we can afford to build mega stadiums to allow people to play hockey/football and risk grievous injury, whose subsequent medial costs will be passed on to the tax payer(in Canada at least) then surely we can afford to carry the financial burdon of a sailor who gets in over their head. Or a back country skier, or a snowmoblier, hiker etc
The natural world is ours, we have dominion over it(care takers). We should be encouraged to explore it with out the risk of a lawyer/government employee showing up on our front door step, bill in hand

Best of luck and good wishes to Abby and her family. I hope this ends well.

John

p.s shame about the boat, what a beauty


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I don't want to vilify the parents. But the general trend of "youngest to do..." will continue to spiral out of control until kids start to die on such a regular basis that the media and viewers are so disgusted that they stop watching. The other option is to just stop watching before that happens - and that's what I do. I didn't know anything about this until I was the "lost at sea" topics on CNN and here, because I deliberately chose not to pay attention. I also drive past accidents on the road without looking.

Speaking of CNN:

Rescue teams reach stranded teen sailor

"...Abby's pregnant mother is expected to go into labor soon, so her parents will not fly out to meet her, Sunderland said..."

So you can bet there will be another attempt from that family. Just give it another 14 years.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

By the way, if you don't think her decision to sail in the beginning of winter was influenced by beating her birthday, then you're very naive. This decision was "record first, safety second." That's the kind of decision that young, reckless teens - and their publicity hogging parents - make. Think balloon boy.

I know what kind of storms were hitting the northeast US last November/December. Take that and amplify it 2000 miles out in the ocean, and that's what they chose to sail in to - all because of how her birthday hit. Foolish and exploitative.

And age may have had a role in the demasting. Don't you think a more experienced, stronger sailor may have been better able to avoid demasting? I'm just a novice sailor, so I'll let you guys argue over that one.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

First, aside from the poor choice of boats, the fact that Abby left in January and had to start over and leave again in February speaks volumes about the lack of preparedness and experience Abby had with Wild Eyes.

I doubt that Abby really knows the systems on the boat or had much to do with outfitting the boat. *Given that Wild Eyes was only purchased in October, less than four months before she was to leave, and spent a good part of that four months in transit between Ft. Lauderdale and California, exactly how much experience and time do you think Abby had aboard her? *

Jessica Watson was intimately involved in the refitting of Ella's Pink Lady, and was IIRC, the one who ultimately made many of the decisions about what gear was to be used and included on the boat-which is not the case with Wild Eyes and Abby from everything I've read.

I'd also point out that Abby's circumnavigation was very different from her brother's. Zac was in a boat that he had bought and refitted mostly on his own as I understand it. He took a much more conservative circumnavigation route that didn't consist primarily of the Southern Ocean in winter... unlike his sister's route. He knew his boat better and took a much less challenging route... and was successful.

There really isn't much surprise IMHO that Abby failed. Her aborted first start had a lot of ominous portents in it... and clearly showed that the boat was not well suited to the task for the sailor in question. The boat was wrong, the route was poorly chosen, and the timing was abysmal. I'd point out that even the hardest core of professional sailors avoid the Southern Ocean in winter, as pointed out in an article linked to previously. *What made Abby or her family think that she'd somehow be immune to the conditions there in a boat she really didn't even know?*


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

jcalvinmarks said:


> Okay, geez, I've tried to ignore it, but I can't ignore it any more.
> 
> This concept that her very being out there is somehow improper is ludicrous. Yes, her father seems like a bit of a ham, but nobody forced her to go out there (tin-foil-hat half-baked conspiracy theories notwithstanding). She's an accomplished sailor, and she has every right to go to sea, particularly if her parents consent. You can think that her parents' judgment was lacking, and that's fine. You can second-guess her route and her timing, that's fine. But this vitriolic maligning of her and her parents and this blanket condemnation of the idea of youth sailing records is absurd.
> 
> ...


I don't see anyone (or almost anyone) trying to crucify her. She's sixteen years old. It's her parents who are taking the well-deserved brunt of the criticism.


----------



## PierreMundo (Nov 29, 2007)

SD,
I’m really confused now. I just pointed out that, according to a lot of members here, it is not important anymore to make a good decision for Choice of season, boat and strength of crew. You just bring your Phone and EPIRB.

And now you are saying it is important  

Well, Now we know not all members are real sailors and cruisers. We also have a lot of adventurers. A different breed. How do we know we get the right advises in future?


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I've kept my keyboard quiet on this for well, forever.

What I see, is a petulant, spoiled lil rich kid that couldn't wait for mumsey and dadsies to float her a half a million plus sailboat, so she could go do stuff, and stuff, omg. 
Don't gimme "she was an accomplished sailor" bullpucky. she's 16 frickin' years old, she ain't accomplished anything but matching her shoes to her purse yet. 

any of you got a 16 year old? 
ask them two questions in a row. tell me how far you get. 

Same for her wannabe brother. he was lucky, thats all. 

What the hell is wrong with the parents of this pinhead. 
"Daddy, I'm 16, and I wanna get a boat, and head out across some of the toughest oceans, at the wrong season to boot."

Daddy, mommy, someone without sponsorship stars in their eyes should have said....
"uhhh, no"

No what we have is an obviously ill equipped person, (chronologically, and maturity) being plucked off one of the stormiest seas, at the wrong time of the year, wrecking a 1/2 million boat, and all anyone gets is giggles and tickles. Screw that, make HER and her dilbert family pay for every set of eyes on the water, give the cap'n of the french boat a stack full of schekles for going overboard himself to save her stupid, sorry ass, and somebody needs to pay big time for the inconvenience of financing her dream.

The way it looks today, she's gonna get a warm blankie, a barbie, and some hair product, not a cuff up side her head. Will somebody take responsibility for their own actions? Please?

Oh, and while we're on "boat choice"... a Farr 40? why "that" boat. Could it be they made the boat fit the voyage? or did they just get that one for a couple of plugs. Thats an awful lot of air time. Tell me the lil scamp wouldn't have been a bit more safe in a oh, I dunno, a Passport 40? a Valiant 42? I hear those are relatively decent tubs too.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

By the way, I just got throught reading the news account of the rescue, which indicated that the fishing boat captain fell in the water while trying to rescue her and he, himself, had to be rescued as well. This only underscores that due to the laws of the sea, bad decisions not only affect those making them but also can involve risk (beyond money and inconvenience) to those who are just trying to do the right thing.


----------



## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> First, aside from the poor choice of boats, the fact that Abby left in January and had to start over and leave again in February speaks volumes about the lack of preparedness and experience Abby had with Wild Eyes.
> 
> I doubt that Abby really knows the systems on the boat or had much to do with outfitting the boat. *Given that Wild Eyes was only purchased in October, less than four months before she was to leave, and spent a good part of that four months in transit between Ft. Lauderdale and California, exactly how much experience and time do you think Abby had aboard her? *
> 
> ...


SD,

While I understand that she probably did not know the boat well, I don't understand why you call it the wrong boat. An Open 40 is purpose built to do what she was trying to do, and I'd probably take one myself if I were to race around the world. Just for the record I know (some) IMOCA boats relatively well.
So basically I agree with your analysis, just not about the boat being "wrong".

/Joms


----------



## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

That witch doesnt kill you makes you stronger. If this is true then Abby may be stronger then anyone posting here. She may have failed and made some bad moves but she still has my respect.


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

jcalvinmarks said:


> So someone please tell me, what is the age? Clearly it isn't 16 or 17. I mean, that would be silly to let a 16-year-old sail a boat in a wide open ocean.


16 is okay with me, 14 isn't.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Pierre-

To not pick the right boat, right season and right crew for a given venture is foolish at best... BFS aside... IMHO, you really need to have a boat that you trust, know very well, and can handle in even the worst of conditions. 

*An Open 40 does not qualify as a boat that can be trusted.* They're very lightly built racing boats that require a lot of experience to singlehand. They're tough to handle in the worst conditions and will not "take care" of the crew like a more seakindly design would.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

JomsViking said:


> SD,
> 
> While I understand that she probably did not know the boat well, I don't understand why you call it the wrong boat. An Open 40 is purpose built to do what she was trying to do, and I'd probably take one myself if I were to race around the world. Just for the record I know (some) IMOCA boats relatively well.
> So basically I agree with your analysis, just not about the boat being "wrong".
> ...


She's an 130 pound (or less) teenage girl. She is not an elecrtrician. She is not a mechanic. They picked a boat that was not only not as stable as other boats but with an awful lot fo things to go wrong and fix. For example, she made one stop to fix a fancy and complicated auto pilot. Jessica, in contrast had much simpler systems, a more stable boat and a lot less to fix. All at a much smaller cost.


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

_"So someone please tell me, what is the age? Clearly it isn't 16 or 17. I mean, that would be silly to let a 16-year-old sail a boat in a wide open ocean._"
_
"that which doesn't kill me makes me stronger"[/I

yea, right up to the point that you no longer learn anything from it.

it bares repeating...
here is a 16 year old that took far too many chances with somebody elses money, and put other people at risk for HER (and her parents) dream.

but hey, she got a monster of a BFS, right? put it all out there, right on the edge...
dumbasses.

and this is ok?
if thats the case, I wanna skydive nekkid. without a chute, over a kids school. I wanna do it, so shut up and gimme the money..._


----------



## SeaFever2000 (Sep 10, 2008)

She is finally safe on the fishing vessel that rescued her! All the positive thoughts helped.

It seems they are going to scuttle her boat as it is quite a distance for towing.

French fishing boat rescues stranded Calif. teen - Yahoo! News


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

A shot at fame and fortune is what the "Youngest Sailor" contest seems to be all about. If I am wrong about this, give me an alternative!

I admire Abby and Jessica, and Zac, for their ability. I am VERY glad that she is safe. However, to hawk her voyage, selling sponsorships and the like, pre-departure like PT Barnum, and then to have people buy into it, proves that Mr Barnum was right!

I did not support her sponsors, and as I have said elsewhere, will buy their products _despite _their support, not because of it. Fishermen, Merchant Marine, and Naval vessels are out there for a reason, and we all benefit from their services. Cruising couples, have chosen to live at sea as a way of life, and will pay a heavy price if their home is destroyed. Abby was out there as a contestant in the Youngest Around The World challenge - and, she had sponsors! The Australian authorities would be justified to present the Abby's parents with a bill for the SAR.

Kudos to Abby for making the right decision to bail, and no longer qualify as a contestant in this side-show.


----------



## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

Here is the latest:

Teenage sailor rescued amid storm of round-the-world debate

Teenage sailor rescued amid storm of round-the-world debate

Rik


----------



## jcalvinmarks (Mar 17, 2010)

cardiacpaul said:


> What I see, is a petulant, spoiled lil rich kid that couldn't wait for mumsey and dadsies to float her a half a million plus sailboat, so she could go do stuff, and stuff, omg.
> Don't gimme "she was an accomplished sailor" bullpucky. she's 16 frickin' years old, she ain't accomplished anything but matching her shoes to her purse yet.


Yeah, I kinda figured this sort of wealth-envy poppycock was behind a lot of the vitriol.

Very hard to take anyone seriously who starts their argument talking about "spoiled rich kids." Kinda like the "spoiled rich white men" in their "yachts" that populate this message board.


----------



## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

CBinRI said:


> She's an 130 pound (or less) teenage girl. She is not an elecrtrician. She is not a mechanic. They picked a boat that was not only not as stable as other boats but with an awful lot fo things to go wrong and fix. For example, she made one stop to fix a fancy and complicated auto pilot. Jessica, in contrast had much simpler systems, a more stable boat and a lot less to fix. All at a much smaller cost.


Dame Ellen MacArthur is very small too, so now it's size that matters?  
As I said previously I agreed that she should have more experience, but the Open 40 would still be a good choice.
I also agree that Jessica seemed way better prepared, but I bet she could have done it in an Open 40 too.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

rikhall said:


> Here is the latest:
> 
> Teenage sailor rescued amid storm of round-the-world debate
> 
> ...


Either not a complete report or generous editing. Other reports describe that the captain of the fishing vessel fell in the water while trying to rescue her and he himself had to be rescued. How would her parents continue to rationalize their poor decisionmaking if he had been hurt or killed?


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

JomsViking said:


> Dame Ellen MacArthur is very small too, so now it's size that matters?
> As I said previously I agreed that she should have more experience, but the Open 40 would still be a good choice.
> I also agree that Jessica seemed way better prepared, but I bet she could have done it in an Open 40 too.


A very good choice for a blue water race with an experienced crew. A very poor choice for a circumnavigation through the southern ocean by a small person with limited experience. We can agree to disagree on this one.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I disagree, the choice of boat was wrong IMHO.... I believe you're confusing the Open 40, which is what Wild Eyes is with the Class 40 sailboats.

While the *Class 40's* were designed to be singled handed by professional sailors-they certainly weren't designed to be single-handed through a Southern Ocean passage in WINTER by a 16 year old girl.

However, Wild Eyes is an *OPEN 40*, which is a totally different beastie... and really not suitable for a 16-year-old girl to be singlehanding through the Southern Ocean. *From a website about the Class 40 sailboats:*



> *Class 40 is a box rule that has been devised in France by a group of sailors, designers and other interested parties including builders and the journalist/Vendee Globe veteran Patrice Carpentier, with the purpose of creating a new 'short-handed' offshore racing class. *The intention of the rule makers is that it should be international and encourages the participation of sailors from all over the world. By July 2007 this office has had more than five hundred enquiries from nine countries in Europe, as well as Australasia, the Far East, South America,the United States and Canada....
> 
> *Class 40 should not be confused with Open 40, which is an unrestricted race boat type that allows for instance the use of canting keels and carbon fibre in hull and deck structure*. At least initially it might be that Class 40 and Open 40 will co-exist in some events but few Open 40's will be able to qualify and race in the same class as a Class 40. In time it is felt that Class 40 will become in the same way as the Mini Transat, by far the dominant offshore short-handed racing class in its length.


Most racing boats are not very forgiving or seakindly. Even Liz Clark says that her Cal 40 was less than ideal in heavier weather, and the Cal 40 is far less an extreme design than the Open 40.



JomsViking said:


> SD,
> 
> While I understand that she probably did not know the boat well, I don't understand why you call it the wrong boat. An Open 40 is purpose built to do what she was trying to do, and I'd probably take one myself if I were to race around the world. Just for the record I know (some) IMOCA boats relatively well.
> So basically I agree with your analysis, just not about the boat being "wrong".
> ...


----------



## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

CBinRI said:


> A very good choice for a blue water race with an experienced crew. A very poor choice for a circumnavigation through the southern ocean by a small person with limited experience. We can agree to disagree on this one.


So You've singlehanded one and know? These are the types of boats that ARE singlehanded around - admittedly by large big people like Dame Ellen..

Let's agree to disagree 

Again I said I agreed with the preparation lacking, but (without knowing the S&S 34 Jessica sailed in) I'd bet it is not (that much) easier to sail than a properly setup Open 40.


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I don't have wealth envy. Pffht, been there, done that, happy as a clam. 

I have the "stoopidity avoidance" gene.
For me, its not the "monetary" indulgence. Its that inate sixth sense that "sumpin' is wrong" 
Do you have a 16 year old? Ever been around any? 
Do you give them the keys to your car... jag, aston or yugo, doesn't matter) and say here, see ya in a year? 
God help us all if ya do.

There are consequences to every action. My gut feeling is that in this case, none will be forthcoming, and the wee one won't have a clue as to why some people are upset with her and her parents. After all, she did it for the adventure right? 
(and how many people were put in harms way because she wanted an adventure)
Screw that, she wanted to go, she gets no quarter. Darwin. put on your gel, fasten your AE hoodie, grab a bag of mabeline waterproof and jump in. Otherwise, we're rewarding stoopidity.
I couldn't help but notice that the poster chose to ignore the boat choice, the lack of experience (at 16, yea, 16, think bout that. just one thought... you got a 16 year old, right? hand 'em the keys to your boat. or better yet, and them the keys to your best friends boat.... there, thats better, your best friends boat. )



jcalvinmarks said:


> Yeah, I kinda figured this sort of wealth-envy poppycock was behind a lot of the vitriol.
> 
> Very hard to take anyone seriously who starts their argument talking about "spoiled rich kids." Kinda like the "spoiled rich white men" in their "yachts" that populate this message board.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

St Anna said:


> Smacker,
> 
> How goes it in smackville.
> I think (just my view) this comment of yours is a little off track.
> ...


St. stirring it up is fine with me! Always more fun.

I agree with you, especially on the solo stuff. As I've said many times before - solo sailing is clearly the riskiest form of sailing you can do - those risks raised astronomically off shore. I think admitting that is a little difficult for many - because many do singlehand. But it could even be defined as irresponsible.

And that's another reason I think it's going to be hard to seriously defend Abby's decisions - if people want to take the stance that she deserved to live her dream and that age doesn't matter in the calculus. In that case she was fully and solely responsible for all those decisions.

How much knowledge and experience should one have before undertaking the highest risks there are in sailing? How much CAN a young (younger and younger) kid have?


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

JomsViking said:


> So You've singlehanded one and know? These are the types of boats that ARE singlehanded around - admittedly by large big people like Dame Ellen..
> 
> Let's agree to disagree
> 
> Again I said I agreed with the preparation lacking, but (without knowing the S&S 34 Jessica sailed in) I'd bet it is not (that much) easier to sail than a properly setup Open 40.


I am confident that you are in the minority on this opinion but I respect it nonetheless. I have an S&S designed blue water capable boat of that era and I can tell you it is built like a tank. Modern racing designs inevitably sacrifice stability for speed. When you sacrifice stability, you must pay much closer attention at all times. And that is not even getting into the difference in systems.


----------



## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

CBinRI said:


> I am confident that you are in the minority on this opinion but I respect it nonetheless. I have an S&S designed blue water capable boat of that era and I can tell you it is built like a tank. Modern racing designs inevitably sacrifice stability for speed. When you sacrifice stability, you must pay much closer attention at all times. And that is not even getting into the difference in systems.


CB I respect You and SD's opinions very much - I sail a Contessa 35 and have sailed an (older) Open 40 (Not around, though), so I know both sides.
But there's so many myths about "old and strong and long-keeled" that is just NOT true, and one of these is that the lightly built modern boats are less stable, and will not self-right - the one Abby sailed will (and probably did self-right).
P.S: I love S&S Designs!!!


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jcalvinmarks said:


> So someone please tell me, what is the age? Clearly it isn't 16 or 17.


To me this is the only pertinent question. If she is legally deemed a minor, then her parents are responsible. That's all there is to it. And if she undertakes an unsupervised multi-month voyage that will put her in danger, that brings up a lot of legal (not just philosophical) issues.

Compound this with the record of younger and younger people going and you've got a mix for disaster.

To me there is a very simple solution. If your minor son or daughter dreams of sailing around the world and you will do anything as a parent to help them achieve that dream. Then take them on a sail around the world.

Then when they are a "major" - they can go alone if they want, and they'll have some great experience under their belt.

Easy peasy.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Pierre-
> 
> To not pick the right boat, right season and right crew for a given venture is foolish at best... BFS aside... IMHO, you really need to have a boat that you trust, know very well, and can handle in even the worst of conditions.


+1. No need to put BFS aside with that definition.


----------



## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

Damn, I think I have to officially agree with Smackdaddy. 

I don't believe Single Handing is as dangerous as he believes, though.
But getting a lot of miles and experience before going around alone, IS a good idea, and there's no need to start with big boats, the learnings you can gain from inexpensive dinghies is invaluable.



smackdaddy said:


> To me this is the only pertinent question. If she is legally deemed a minor, then her parents are responsible. That's all there is to it. And if she undertakes an unsupervised multi-month voyage that will put her in danger, that brings up a lot of legal (not just philosophical) issues.
> 
> Compound this with the record of younger and younger people going and you've got a mix for disaster.
> 
> ...


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

uh.. to take the other side of the argument... It's ok to spend thousands (maybe millions) to rescue "experienced" adult sailors on the same such round the world voyages? Lord knows there are plenty of those stories to be read! (No I would not have ever let my kids do such a trip)


----------



## Kiltmadoc (Nov 10, 2009)

Has anyone noticed that the only ads placed next to this discussion are all for safety gear? Clever, that....


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

jcalvinmarks said:


> Okay, geez, I've tried to ignore it, but I can't ignore it any more.
> 
> This concept that her very being out there is somehow improper is ludicrous. Yes, her father seems like a bit of a ham, but nobody forced her to go out there (tin-foil-hat half-baked conspiracy theories notwithstanding). She's an accomplished sailor, and she has every right to go to sea, particularly if her parents consent. You can think that her parents' judgment was lacking, and that's fine. You can second-guess her route and her timing, that's fine. But this vitriolic maligning of her and her parents and this blanket condemnation of the idea of youth sailing records is absurd.
> 
> ...


Yes, I fought, and lost, the same battle two posts ago...

I admire Abby, Zac, Jessica, and Laura for their *sailing *ability, and I believe that they should be quietly encouraged to sail in any venue that wish - provided, that they can do so on their dime, without any outside sponsorship.

However, what I do find upsetting is sponsorship of contestants in this contest to get in some record book. Really, I find it upsetting that anyone is keeping a record of the youngest sailor at all. If you want to set out (and I don't care what age you are) and sail around the world - because you want adventure, that is fine. But, the idea that these attempts are _promoted _"*to become the youngest person to sail around the world alone*" (copied from Zac Sunderland's website) and deserve either my attention or financial support is appalling.

When they become LEGAL ADULTS (18 in the USA) they should then be able to solicit sponsorship for their ability in this, or any other sport. Until they are of legal age, their parent or legal guardians are responsible for all of their business dealings.

Think about this, and please realize that I am just speculating here; 

How many of us had heard of Shoe City over a year ago? (I know that I hadn't.) 
Why, exactly, is it printed on the side of Abby's boat? 
Is it possible that their name was painted on her boat as some form of sponsorship arrangement?
Who do you think managed that arrangement? 
Could that arrangement have been for a complete circumnavigation, and not a partial circumnavigation?
If so, could that have had something to do with Abby's decision to proceed after she initially dropped out?
I don't KNOW the answers to any of this, but I am entitled to my suspicion.

Here is a darker take along this same line of reasoning: 
 How many of us knew the name Laurence Sunderland ten years ago? 
 How many of us know that name now?
 Did anyone know that he is Owner at Sunderlands Yacht Management?
 How much additional media exposure do you think that the Sunderlands, and therefore, Sunderlands Yacht Management, are getting out of this?
 Do you think that there is a possibility that any of the media exposure might translate to an increase in business?
Again, I don't KNOW the answers to any of these questions, but I have my suspicions.

I believe that Abby's parents should be presented with a bill for the entire SAR.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

> Her brother Zack, who circumnavigated the globe in 2009, becoming the first under 18 to make the trip, recalled his own "rough" journey through the Indian Ocean.
> "No one gets out of it without hitting a bit of a rough patch," he said.
> "You have to have your boat so prepared, all the systems to make it possible for you to do it single-hands. When those systems start breaking, a lot of responsibilities are in you," he said.
> "You have to stay up for hours and hours and battle sleep deprivation and storms. ... She has been through that for the best part of 150 days, dealing with it single-handing," he said.
> ...


......


----------



## PierreMundo (Nov 29, 2007)

I read it earlier.
A lot of weird statements in one article.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

It appears that a certain California family really, really wants to be famous. Here are the reality show pitches from the entertainment company that they have been working with throughout:

Magnetic Entertainment > Home


_*Adventures in Sunderland(Reality TV Show)*_
_*Distribution Rights: Magnetic Entertainment*_
_*Exec Producer: Magnetic Entertainment*_

_A family oriented Adventure show, based on the Sunderland Family of Thousand Oaks, CA. We follow the family in their day-to-day lives as shipbuilder Laurence Sunderland and mother/teacher Marianne try to balance work and family. Their philosophy on building strong well rounded adults is to mentor their seven home schooled children into setting goals, creating a plan to reach those goals, and implementing them... allowing each of them to pursue their dreams of becoming world class adventurers. The oldest child, Zac Sunderland currently holds the World Record for first person under 18 years-old to Solo-Circumnavigate the World and while finishing up his senior year of schooling is hot onto his next Adventure, a Motorcycle Adventure from the northern most point to the southern most point of South America. Meanwhile his 16 year-old sister, Abby Sunderland, just departed on her quest to complete a non-stop unassisted solo-circumnavigation of the world, trying to reclaim the "youngest" world record for the Sunderland family, but she must do so in a timely manner as 16 year-old Austrailian Jessica Watson has just passed the half-way mark of her attempt at the same world record. Meanwhile the family pursue their daily lives all the while providing the much needed support to their adventuring children._
*







*​
_*Abby's Journey (Documentary)*_*
Producer: Magnetic Entertainment

*_The story at its core this is about one's Journey into adulthood, learning what it takes to be on your own, set goals and accomplish them. On the heal of seventeen year-old Zac Sunderland breaking the youngest world circumnavigation record in early 2009, we follow sixteen year-old Abby Sunderland, as she pursues her dream to become the youngest person to accomplish the feat. Originally her dream and goal, she has been waiting to fulfill her dream since she was thirteen years old while having to watch her older brother Zac set the record as youngest solo-circumnavigator first. That record having being broken by Britain's Perham in 2009, she now plans to reclaim the World Record for the Sunderland family. To do so, she is in a race to beat older Australian Jessica Watson who embarked on her own voyage three months prior to Abby._

_*Solo Dreams**(Documentary)*_
_*Director: Christopher Bates*_
_*Producer: Magnetic Entertainment*_

_A Feature Documentary Film that will document the history of solo-circumnavigation, up to the current journeys of Abby Sunderland and sixteen year old Australian Jessica Watson. We will examine fourteen year-old Dutch sailor Laura Decker's quest to pursue being the youngest person to solo-circumnavigation. Decker is fighting an extended legal battle in the Netherlands, opening up a discussion on the social impact of allowing teenage children to attempt these life threatening adventures, where ultimately we learn it's really all about parenting and building the base for these young adults to pursue their lives, but more importantly their dreams!_

 


----------



## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

Ehirlihy,

if as you say, 18 is an adult....then why can most adults not drink until they are 21 ?? That age thing just really does not hold water in this or any other argument. Just how many ADULTS kill someone DUI/DWI and buy their way out of it?

AS for the bill for SAR, many of us already pay a lot of taxes, both through payroll and property to support that type of thing...so her bill is paid in full!

Food for thought...


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

kd3pc said:


> Ehirlihy,
> 
> if as you say, 18 is an adult....then why can most adults not drink until they are 21 ?? That age thing just really does not hold water in this or any other argument. Just how many ADULTS kill someone DUI/DWI and buy their way out of it?
> 
> ...


I am dumbfounded by the simplicity of your arguments. Age shouldn't matter in ANY argument? Why do we have different rules for kids? Should they be allowed to do whatever they want, regardless of age? I'm not sure I get your point.

And obviously, we all pay taxes. But what you (and some politicians) don't seem to want to acknowledge is that the amount that we, as a society waste is directly tied into what we all pay. It is not just some abstract general obligation.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Don't ask me to explain the drinkin' age... Perhaps citizens of the US of A should not be considered adults until they are 21. Are you suggesting that it's OK that some people (politicians mostly) are NOT held responsible for DUI? Or are you agreeing with me that people should be held accountable for their actions? Regardless, bringing DUI up is asking me to chase a red fish... I believe they are called herring.

My point is that no one can enter a legally binding contract until they are an adult in the USA. Therefore, I doubt that Ms. Sunderland could enter into a sponsorship arrangement with any of her sponsors without parental involvement.

Regarding the bill for SAR: I believe that this whole "youngest person to circumnavigate" contest is a publicity stunt, and I hope that this is the last chapter. The fact that Abby had to be rescued equates to a business expense for poor decision making by the management of Sunderland, Inc. Not holding them accountable equates to a subsidy of their endeavor by the Australian CG. Would you also suggest that BP is NOT financially responsible for the clean up of the Gulf of Mexico because we have paid taxes to support environmental police, the Coast Guard, and the Navy? 

No, my friend, I believe that people should be held accountable for poor decision making; I know that I have always been (and I've made a few doozies). I pay taxes to ensure that the resources to save my butt are in place should I or someone else need them. If I use these resources, especially for an enterprise of self promotion, I believe that I should have to pay to restore them to their original state. 

Think of it this way; have you ever been taken to the hospital in an ambulance? If so, did you, or your insurance, get a bill for that service?? I know that I did.

EDIT: I forgot to add, and I think that we can all agree, I'm just glad that she's OK.


----------



## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

CB wrote - "I'm not sure I get your point."

I am simple, it is simple......is an adult 18 or 21 years old...and if it is 18 (in this state an 18 yo can enter in to a binding contract), vote, be expected to serve in the military....then why can't this adult get a hard drink? By the time you are 21, you should be well on your way to what ever your goal is...not still bothering mom and dad for gas money and meals..

secondly and/or similarly, we spend BILLIONS "educating" kids in HS, only to have some percentage greater than 25 flunk or drop out, go to jail, or fail in college....where is the return on that "payment"...and no I don't have a choice in those taxes...

I for one would rather pay for a kid with the attitude that Abby shows, than those with the attitude that someone should support me, while the majority sit on their collective hindends...waiting for a handout, or worse..so I am happy that SAR comes out of MY tax money for these things.


Eh-

Definitely people should be made to pay for illegal activity, be that speeding, drugs, DUI/DWI, ...

Sadly for today's kids, in prior years young people were expected to be responsible and to suffer the consequences. Many were sea captains at 18 or 21, totally self sufficient. Today we have 27 year olds who have never had a real job, or had their own place, or "failed" - continuously propped up and defended by parents, who are now going broke supporting trifling, ill tempered "Adults"..

It is way past time for people to grow up and smell the bacon...and this young lady stepped up, gave it a hell of a try, failed and did nothing illegal or out of bounds in doing so. Bring her home to a heroes welcome, and if you want to make her "pay" let her go to high schools and middle schools and make presentations about her challenges and how she coped....


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*If you don't succeed, try again, and again, and again .....*

Oh no...

I sincerely hope that we are not in for more of these attempts....

I can't recall if it was here or another forum where someone said that since Zac succeeded, and Abby didn't, that we wouldn't hear about the Sunderlands trying another "youngest person to circumnav..." for another 14 years.

I just came across this at her website:
"Abigail ("Abby") Sunderland turned sixteen in October 2009. To the outward observer, she is a seemingly cleancut, All-American girl... the second of seven children...." and Mom couldn't go to meet her because she's pregnant.

So it seems that they _may _have up to 6 more attempts.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

eherlihy said:


> Oh no...
> 
> I sincerely hope that we are not in for more of these attempts....
> 
> ...


Well at least kd3pc is comfortable with pitching in to the rescue efforts. I am not. He can watch the reality show that her parents are marketing. I'll skip the show. And the ticker tape parade. The "heroes welcome" or lecture tour called for by kd just contributes to more and more people attempting these publicity stunts (which is all that they are) and we'll no doubt soon be reading about 13 and 14 year olds being rescued. Or not.


----------



## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

I would point out that a bit ago, a 16 year old. He was a Boy (perhaps that is the current rub), but did something similar...now he would be on charges for killing a cat, and his parents condemned and god forbid a 17yo girl come back with a hubby.......Yes or NO???

-----Robin Lee Graham (1949 - ) set out to sail around the world alone as a teenager in the summer of 1965. National Geographic Magazine carried the story, and he co-wrote a book, title Dove, detailing his journey.

Graham was sixteen when he set out alone from Southern California and headed west in his 24-foot sloop. He was originally given two kittens for company, that he named Joliette and Suzette, and through his travels lost and gained several more, ultimately docking with Kili, Pooh and Piglet at the end of the journey. He married along the way and, after almost five years, sailed back into his home port in Los Angeles. He and his wife, Patti Ratterree, briefly attended Stanford University, then settled in Montana.

Graham's book about his voyage, Dove, was published in 1972. His voyage was depicted in a film, The Dove (1974). A followup book, Home Is The Sailor, was published in 1983.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

kd3pc said:


> I would point out that a bit ago, a 16 year old. He was a Boy (perhaps that is the current rub), but did something similar...now he would be on charges for killing a cat, and his parents condemned and god forbid a 17yo girl come back with a hubby.......Yes or NO???
> 
> -----Robin Lee Graham (1949 - ) set out to sail around the world alone as a teenager in the summer of 1965. National Geographic Magazine carried the story, and he co-wrote a book, title Dove, detailing his journey.
> 
> ...


This is a good point. I think I would very much like to read it. Somehow it seems very different to me, though. I would doubt that his trip was accompanied by a publicity machine. I doubt that his family issued constant press releases. (In fact, I'd doubt thant anyone heard much about it till the book came out.)

I'd also doubt that there were any dangerous decisions made regarding weather and routes in order to shave a few days off of a "record." I haven't read the book but I would be surprised if he was foolish enough to be in the southern ocean in the middle of June. In fact, it looks like he was in no hurry whatsoever (taking five years) and didn't claim to set any records. They didn't have reality shows back then but if they did I doubt he or his family would have been pitching one like the Sunderlands have been.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*Same point different forum*

I have the same problem with Grahm, or rather Grahm's *FATHER*.

From Dove and Robin Lee Graham - The Voyage of the Dove Round The World

"His father, it seemed, became more obsessed with the voyage than Robin, perhaps seeing it vicariously as his own. He threw himself into the preparations and outfitting, spending most of those last hectic weeks with his son. As Robin recalled later, it was a period when he and his father were the closest in their entire lives. Along with taking care of preparations, Robin's father had also become his manager and agent, and complex arrangements were made to sell the story of his circumnavigation to publications and broadcast media, and set up lecture tours. It was going to be one circumnavigation that made money or else."

A shot at fame and fortune - Is that what Sailing is all about? It seems to me that it IS what the "Youngest Sailor" contest is about. Again, If I am wrong about this, PLEASE give me an alternative!

Actually, I would very much admire Abby if; she get's a JOB, saves her money, buys a boat, and sails around the world WITHOUT sponsorship. Hell, I'll even buy her a drink (she has to be over 18 to buy a boat, and I'll take the risk that she'll be 21 before she completes an un-sponsored voyage) AND I'll buy her book (up to $100).

My issue is not with her, but with the _exploitation _of her and this stupid contest.


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

eherlihy said:


> My issue is not with her, but with the _exploitation _of her and this stupid contest.


It does seem a little like those contests were people see how much food they can eat in one sitting. 

Or a dance marathon, hey, let's dance 50 straight hours until we pass out.


----------



## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

She is safe now, thats all that matters, regardless of age, boat etc.
We all take risks in life, calculated risks and accept the consequences. She did, as did her family. 

My views are that the time to critisize is before she or Jess or others set off. After they have left port, only support is of any use.

The first rule of the sea is to help others in need regardless. Repayment was in the form of a life saved.


----------



## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

"My issue is not with her, but with the exploitation of her and this stupid contest."

On this my friend, we totally agree!! And CB you are right, back then we did not have 24 hour news looking to make a story out of everything.

I guess this discussion has enlightened me to the fact that it is often the contest and the $$$$ that ruins things for me....I enjoyed drag racing till it simply became a game of money and sponsorships, neither in which I was interested in. Then it was 70 hemi cuda's till the speculators and collectors got in to it - no one would even drive one. And perhaps why I liked the Dove story...he did it on his terms, when he wanted and finished when he finished...

Again thank you for a grand discussion and thought provoking chit chat.

C ya Guys and Gals, 

and OBTW, I am really glad she is safe and sound and hope for her the best.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

kd3pc said:


> "My issue is not with her, but with the exploitation of her and this stupid contest."
> 
> On this my friend, we totally agree!! And CB you are right, back then we did not have 24 hour news looking to make a story out of everything.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your thoughtful opinions and my apologies if I came across as shrill or on a high horse. Good night.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

St Anna said:


> She is safe now, thats all that matters, regardless of age, boat etc.
> We all take risks in life, calculated risks and accept the consequences. She did, as did her family.
> 
> My views are that the time to critisize is before she or Jess or others set off. After they have left port, only support is of any use.
> ...


I hope I didn't give the wrong impression. I ripped into her parents pretty good but I have teenage kids and I said some prayers for her while she was out there. I can't imagine how I'd feel if one of my kids was lying on the cabin floor, listening to the mast come down, getting knocked over and waiting for it all to end. I wish her nothing but good health, fair winds and safe journeys.


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

To me the whole thing is just bizarre, and not just this but the one where the kid went across the Atlantic with his family (father ?) in a boat nearby to get some kind of record, I just don't get it.

I mean if a kid is going to risk her life over something like this, why not go and see the world, stop and explore places along the way, live life a little, see the sites, meet the people, get an education and learn about the world ? What the hell does getting your name in a book do ? It just seems like such a waste, if something had happened to the girl I would have felt it had been for absolutely nothing.


----------



## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

The more things change... The more they stay the same...

One big difference I see is that Graham did not have an EPIRB. He might have been able to radio and let people know he was in distress but there would have been no way of rescue. And he ended up sailing with wife 2/3 of the way which means it was not a completely solo attempt (but another foolish decision was made) J/K

5 years to circumnav is more like going on an extended cruising trip than what Abby was put up to doing. Not saying that Graham's trip was not a challenge or un-successful or much less dangerous; just saying that it was far less of a grueling attempt (just as Zac's was). I still don't think it is wise to send a 16 YO out there alone; regardless of the type of voyage.


----------



## ROSA (Oct 22, 2009)

I believe in Prayers and Prayers have been answered! Happy to have her back safe!

Probably the wrong boat. (RLG's case the Lapworth 24' too, was the wrong boat.)
Certainly the wrong timing.
Definitely a publicity stunt, as was JW. 

In days gone by sailors like RLG, Motessier, Slocum, RKJ seem to have marched to that different drummer. Not much glitz and neon attached to their adventures for the general public. No expectation of most certain rescues in their failures. A totally different mind set, motivation, and intent. 

Both of these young ladies could have prepared themselves quietly without the fanfare, news media, major sponsors, by simply being lower key. They, however, chose the limelight, and therefore all that accompanies it, and by doing so have taken us all with them, into that spotlight, for better or worse.

These stunts will probably make it much more difficult for people like Graham, in the future, to quietly sail away, and write the books. There will probably be new international laws making it impossibly expensive and difficult. Maybe a sailor will be required to post million dollar bonds, for rescue, on even modest adventures before setting out. We are probably attracting way too much worldly attention to ourselves. Paradise may be lost!


----------



## PierreMundo (Nov 29, 2007)

Our mature and thankfull Abby made some notes on her blog: 

Hey everyone, 

Sorry I haven't written in so long as you probably already know I had a pretty rough couple of days. I can't write much now as I am typing on a french key pad as well as trying to stay seated in a bouncy fishing boat. 

The long and the short of it is, well, one long wave, and one short mast (short meaning two inch stub.) I'll write a more detailed blog later, just wanted to let every one know I am safe and sound on a great big fishing boat headed I am not exactly sure where. 

Crazy is the word that really describes everything that has happened best. 

Within a few minutes of being on board the fishing boat, I was already getting calls from the press. I don't know how they got the number but it seems everybody is eager to pounce on my story now that something bad has happened. 

There are plenty of things people can think of to blame for my situation; my age, the time of year and many more. The truth is, I was in a storm and you don't sail through the Indian Ocean without getting in at least one storm. It wasn't the time of year it was just a Southern Ocean storm. Storms are part of the deal when you set out to sail around the world. 

As for age, since when does age create gigantic waves and storms? 

I keep hitting the wrong keys and am still trying to get over the fact that I will never see my Wild Eyes again. So Ill write more later. 

Abby


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

*The boat*

Being a full displacement sailor, was surprised to see the hull configuration on her boat. It looks very fast, but are these designs appropriate for extended offshore trips? Watertight bulkheads may have saved her from sinking but it would have been better not to test this out. Did she have/deploy a drogue or sea anchor to deal with the storm that knocked her down? Will these type hulls heave-to? There just doesn't seem like there's much to keep the bottom side down! Will have to check out the critical ratios if they are available.


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

smurphny said:


> Did she have/deploy a drogue or sea anchor to deal with the storm that knocked her down? Will these type hulls heave-to?


Exact same question I asked when Watson was getting knocked down repeatedly, and someone wrote then that the decision had been made to keep her inside the boat because it was too dangerous to go out on deck. ??? There are a lot of differences between Watson and Sunderland's voyages, not the least of which is the final result, but Watson was also lucky that she didn't lose her mast during the storm she was in, because she was knocked down multiple times and did very little (or apparently nothing) to stop it from happening.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

An important point made above is the essential area of mechanical knowledge and the strength and ability to jury rig under duress. This may be the most valid reason why 16 year old kids should not be attempting trips like this -just, well, experience dealing with tools and gear. The decision to sail out of season is also an inexcusable misjudgment.


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I find myself wondering what the ever capable DeniseO thinks of all of this.


----------



## sailor50 (Aug 26, 2009)

What about Tania Aebi, out of New York on her Contessa?! Wasn't she 17 at the time of her departure after her father said get a job or go sailing in the school of hard knocks? 

She now teaches sailing classes for a very well known charter company - her father fully supported her. She met a fellow, got married, divorced, and sailed with her two children and the ex last year.


----------



## zibadun (Mar 19, 2010)

smurphny said:


> Will these type hulls heave-to?


in abby's blog she posted that she hove to when her main sail was stuck and she was thinking about going up the mast to free it up in the middle of the night in a storm. i'm glad she did not do it.

i can understand if she is a bit angry at journalists. They probably bombarded her with tactless questions the minute she stepped on board La Reunion


----------



## ROSA (Oct 22, 2009)

zibadun said:


> in abby's blog she posted that she hove to when her main sail was stuck and she was thinking about going up the mast to free it up in the middle of the night in a storm. i'm glad she did not do it.
> 
> i can understand if she is a bit angry at journalists. They probably bombarded her with tactless questions the minute she stepped on board La Reunion


That is just part of her sought after celebrity status. No way to go back now!


----------



## bluwateronly (Jul 8, 2008)

okay, I give up and got to say my piece. I have daughters, twins, who are and have been a handfull over the years. I would always support them and give my advise. They listen to me because I have always loved um more than anything and they know it. I would have helped them choose a more suited boat and a better course but, I would not have stopped them no way, if you do you are on the wrong side and a place a parent does not want to be. This girl is capable and has the sea miles to prove it. The only thing I am wondering is why the rigging was not cut loose? If you can't save it let it go so it does not hole you, right? Glad she is okay and has many more years of sailing to do. I would take her as crew any day, and I don't take just anybody.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Sunderland -- latimes.com

Listen to the mom about half-way through.


----------



## sailor50 (Aug 26, 2009)

It takes time to assess the damages. Who would climb up in any type of wind? 

My question is - did she get a new rig B4 she left? If not, why not? Who surveyed the spar and rigging?


----------



## ROSA (Oct 22, 2009)

bluwateronly said:


> okay, I give up and got to say my piece. I have daughters, twins, who are and have been a handfull over the years. I would always support them and give my advise. They listen to me because I have always loved um more than anything and they know it. I would have helped them choose a more suited boat and a better course but, I would not have stopped them no way, if you do you are on the wrong side and a place a parent does not want to be. This girl is capable and has the sea miles to prove it. The only thing I am wondering is why the rigging was not cut loose? If you can't save it let it go so it does not hole you, right? Glad she is okay and has many more years of sailing to do. I would take her as crew any day, and I don't take just anybody.


I agree bluewateronly. Only one daughter here, who was into English riding and jumping horses. Very dangerous, very expensive, and scared me daily. This was at the time of Christopher Reed's accident, I played and supported her totally, always wondering if I was being a responsible or a reckless parent. She has been doing this since 12, and is still at it at 30.

All things considered I must say that I still come down on the side of allowing these adventures. They do scare me to death. She can crew with me too but would probably find it quite boring.


----------



## tomwatt (Dec 11, 2009)

It's a different age. When I was a younger man, young women/ladies were cheerleaders and studied home economics.
My daughter grew up, joined the Army, deployed to Iraq with the 101st Airborne Division, and generally turned out to be a lot tougher and more resiliant than her older brother, who is a gentle soul.
My daughter has surprised me at every turn. 
I don't know enough about the choices made in the process of Abby sailing off on this trip to pass judgement, but things are not what they once were.
If the police contacted me and said that my child was arrested for starting a brawl, I'd have to bet that it was my daughter arrested and not my son.
I have to come down on the side of letting Abby pursue her dreams. And how is this all that different - fame-wise - than American Idol? You could say that being a singer doesn't carry the danger... but John Lennon would argue differently.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

John Lennon was attacked by a psychopath, and they're a little hard to predict.

On the other hand, sailing at full speed without adequate crew or rest in one of most dangerous places at the worst time of the year, is a bit more akin to playing golf on a minefield. You just KNOW how that one is going to end, unless the gods are very kind.

Let the kid play golf, sure. Let her play alone, at night, on a PGA course. Fine.
But when she sets out to play golf on a minefield during a thunderstorm...Well, she beat the odds. She's still in the genepool. Maybe she'll breed for "luck" in the species.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

ROSA said:


> ...All things considered I must say that I still come down on the side of allowing these adventures...


For all my objections over this, I never suggested that they not be "allowed." My objection is to the media's fueling the frenzy, which plays into the greedy aspirations of her reality-TV attention whore parents.

I have not followed this story until the past day, and I will bow out shortly so her 15 minutes of fame does not get more time than it deserves.


----------



## ROSA (Oct 22, 2009)

RhythmDoctor said:


> My objection is to the media's fueling the frenzy, which plays into the greedy aspirations of her reality-TV attention whore parents.


Exactly!!!


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> On the other hand, sailing at full speed without adequate crew or rest in one of most dangerous places at the worst time of the year, is a bit more akin to playing golf on a minefield. You just KNOW how that one is going to end, unless the gods are very kind.


I agree, hellosailor, it seems like every other post is about how you can die driving a car, or playing sports, or whatever, but we're not talking about driving a car or playing sports here, we're talking about the ocean, the stakes are much higher. Here is a list of all of the young people who have done this and what happened during their circumnavigations ...

Robin Lee Graham - dismasted twice, had to sail over 2000 miles with jury rig.
Tania Aebi - hit a tanker in the Med, knocked down numerous times in storms.
Brian Caldwell - rolled over by a wave in the Indian ocean, almost hit by a supertanker.
David Dicks - numerous knockdowns, food poisoning
Jesse Martin - repeatedly knocked down, hit a whale, nearly hit a log floating in the ocean, lost all of his electronics, etc.
Zac Sunderland - Snapped boom, possible pirates in Indian ocean, mostly minor problems.
Michael Perham - Relatively straightforward sailing, minor problems.
Jessica Watson - Knocked down numerous times, hit a freighter before leaving.

And those are only the young people who succeeded.

Sailing around the world isn't driving your car to work, or playing football at school, or any of the other things people keep throwing out there as "it could happen anyway ..." type activities. Sailing on a boat in a storm on the ocean by yourself is dangerous and plenty of people have died doing it.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd point out that Zac Sunderland's circumnavigation was a very different beast than either Abby's or Jessica's. Both Jessica and Abby were going for Southern Ocean, round the Capes type passages, which are far more challenging than a Panama Canal based passage, which is what Zac did IIRC.

Zac's route:










Zac, like Jessica, also bought his boat considerably earlier than his departure date and was heavily involved in refitting the boat and had a fair bit of experience on the boat before setting off on his circumnavigation attempt.

Like Jessica, he had an older, proven cruising design that is far more seakindly than the pure, cutting-edge, racing Open 40 design that his sister was forced to use.

Abby, Zac and Jessica had to deal with knockdowns, gear damage, and such on their circumnavigations. However, both Zac and Jessica's boats were reliant primarily on a relatively simple and purely mechanical windvane for the majority of their self-steering needs. Their electrical systems, while nice and useful, were not a necessity, unlike the electrical system on Wild Eyes-Abby's boat, where the complete dependence on the electronic autopilots was clearly obvious from the beginning.

Most windvanes are relatively simple things, and can often be fixed with the most basic of mechanical tools, wire, rope, and a few other things that might be commonly found on a sailboat. The same can not be said of an electronic autopilot.

Joms-

I notice you don't say anything about the very different goals of a Open 40 and a superficially similar Class 40. IMHO, the majority of the Open 40 boats are NOT SUITABLE for single-handing, especially by a relatively inexperienced 16-year-old. The Class 40s are far more suitable IMHO, as the design philosophies behind the Class 40 boats are far more compatible with the needs of a solo circumnavigator.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

kd3pc said:


> Ehirlihy,
> 
> if as you say, 18 is an adult....then why can most adults not drink until they are 21 ??


 Only in the United States. The rest of the world is a little more enlightened.

*ducks*


----------



## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

bljones said:


> Only in the United States. The rest of the world is a little more enlightened.
> 
> *ducks*


_*I hope so*_

Statistics on Drinking and Driving Among Teens

-Eight young people a day die in alcohol-related crashes. (CSAP, 1996) (Mothers Against Drunk Driving website)

Statistics on Alcohol among Teens

-More than 40% of teens who admitted drinking said they drink when they are upset; 31% said they drink alone; 25% said they drink when they are bored; and 25% said they drink to "get high." (U.S. Surgeon General, 1991)

-Each year, students spend $5.5 billion on alcohol, more than they spend on soft drinks, tea, milk, juice, coffee or books combined. On a typical campus, per capita students spending for alcohol--$446 per student--far exceeds the per capita budget of the college library. (Eigen, 1991 in the 1998 National Household Survey on Drug Abuse).

-Nearly one-third of college students surveyed said they wished alcohol was not available at campus events, and nearly 90% wished that other drugs would disappear from campuses. (Core Institute, 1993)

-Approximately 240,000 to 360,000 of the nation's 12 million current undergraduates will ultimately die from alcohol-related causes--more than the number that will get MAs and PhDs combined. (Eigen, 1991 in the 1998 National Household Survey on Drug Abuse)

-Sixty percent of college women diagnosed with a sexually transmitted disease were drunk at the time of infection. (Advocacy Institute, 1992)

STATISTICS ON TEENS


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd point out that one reason that teens get into so much trouble with alcohol is that it is ILLEGAL for them to have it. So, they can't get much in the way of parental supervision or education about it, now can they? 

IMHO, it would make far more sense to make the legal drinking age 14 or so, and the legal driving age 21... this would allow teens to get experience with drinking UNDER PARENTAL SUPERVISION, and give them a real chance to understand how alcohol can affect them and their coordination, before putting them behind the wheel of a TWO TON weapon. 

I'd point out that DRUNK DRIVING is much less of a problem in countries where the legal ages of driving and drinking are reversed compared to the USA. Many people, who are drinking legally for the first time have little real experience with the effects of alcohol and the lack of supervision, since this often happens when they are away at college, is a big part of the problem.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

wind_magic said:


> I agree, hellosailor, it seems like every other post is about how you can die driving a car, or playing sports, or whatever, but we're not talking about driving a car or playing sports here, we're talking about the ocean, the stakes are much higher. Here is a list of all of the young people who have done this and what happened during their circumnavigations ...
> 
> Robin Lee Graham - dismasted twice, had to sail over 2000 miles with jury rig.
> Tania Aebi - hit a tanker in the Med, knocked down numerous times in storms.
> ...


Excellent points. The risks are very apparent when compiled like this.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

ROSA said:


> Only one daughter here, who was into English riding and jumping horses. Very dangerous, very expensive, and scared me daily.


Exactly the same here. Watching kids fall off horses is hair raising. I would never dream of trying to stop my daughter from riding. As a retired teacher and educational theatre program director I can say that the abilities of teenagers are almost always underestimated. They can do amazing things. What they do need is guidance and experience. The guidance part here seems to be in question. What logical reason is there to choose to be in the S. Indian Ocean at this time of year? Trying to rush a circumnav. is playing Russian Roulette with the weather. A good resource for when to be where is Jimmy Cornell's _World Cruising Routes_ which has extensive information on seasonal weather patterns.


----------



## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

I am absolutely NOT going to trash Abby's folks for letting her go. Would I let my baby girl do something like that? No, but that isn't my daughter's life ambition either. 

We should not discourage kids from chasing their ambitions as long as there is a chance of success (her brother and numerous other people have proved there is). There are so many kids squandering there lives in front of tv's and video games that it is encouraging to know there are kids and families still striving for greatness.

A mere existence is not living. Abby has more life experience at 16 than most of her peers will get in their lifetimes. 

I'll admit, when my wife and I heard that Abby may have been lost we were both heart sick. I just couldn't imagine that little girl out there, all alone and either in the water or being tossed around in a raft. In the end I think we probably underestimated her toughness. 


To Abby and the Sunderlands I say: Lead On.


----------



## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

RhythmDoctor said:


> For all my objections over this, I never suggested that they not be "allowed." My objection is to the media's fueling the frenzy, which plays into the greedy aspirations of her reality-TV attention whore parents.
> 
> I have not followed this story until the past day, and I will bow out shortly so her 15 minutes of fame does not get more time than it deserves.


Doc, do you know the Sunderlands? Did you follow all the hype surrounding Zacs feat? Probably not because there wasn't much. As for Abby, how do you distinguish between attention that comes of great feats and hype generated by media "Whore" parents? Do we all need to stop letting our kids do great things because some media attention may come with it?

I do agree there are lots of parents out there like the weather balloon hoaxers but I don't think that's the case here.


----------



## InkedParrot (Jan 21, 2010)

I think that since these kids had sponsorships to help finance there their adventures, that adds to the hype as their sponsors are promoting it to get their name out. When it was released that Abby set off her emergency beacons, the news media was all over it, and the criticism for age and her parents letting her go on this trip was all over the place. With the emergency beacons set off, was she really "lost at sea." I think the media failed to emphasize that she was prepared for the hazardous conditions. She had a life raft, a ditch bag with food and water, survival suit. I think in Abby's blog she described it as a "freak wave" that hit the boat and broke of her mast. This problem was not due to her age, but due to storms she came across. It seems that people think that these parents are sending their kids out to there doom, without even taking in consideration for their experience and skill of sailing,


----------



## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

SJ34 said:


> I am absolutely NOT going to trash Abby's folks for letting her go. Would I let my baby girl do something like that? No, but that isn't my daughter's life ambition either.
> 
> We should not discourage kids from chasing their ambitions as long as there is a chance of success (her brother and numerous other people have proved there is). There are so many kids squandering there lives in front of tv's and video games that it is encouraging to know there are kids and families still striving for greatness.
> 
> ...


Ditto


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

SJ34 said:


> Doc, do you know the Sunderlands? Did you follow all the hype surrounding Zacs feat?


No, as I said before, I have intentionally ignored all the hype associated with "youngest to..." feats (Mt. Everest, solo circumnav, etc.) because I think it is fundamentally exploitative. After this last one I was disgusted enough that I spoke up.


SJ34 said:


> ...As for Abby, how do you distinguish between attention that comes of great feats and hype generated by media "Whore" parents?...


That's easy. The great feat was not accomplished. The attention whore parents drummed up the hype (and pitched the reality shows) BEFORE the feat, which is the fundamental problem here. Reality TV is all about creating false drama, and by hyping her departure they were setting the stage for them to cash in whether she succeeded or not. It is disgusting to me.


SJ34 said:


> ...Do we all need to stop letting our kids do great things because some media attention may come with it?...


As I said repeatedly, I am not suggesting that we prevent anyone from doing anything. But feeding the frenzy only encourages more parents to exploit their kids for financial gain.


SJ34 said:


> ...I do agree there are lots of parents out there like the weather balloon hoaxers but I don't think that's the case here.


I think this is a lot more similar than dissimilar. The reality TV show was already being pitched before the feat was accomplished. This was all about hyping the reality show, just like with balloon boy.


----------



## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

"The attention whore parents drummed up the hype (and pitched the reality shows) BEFORE the feat, which i"...

and from where does this info come from...I have followed this, but not seen any reference to a "reality show"...

Please let us know where your comments on this come from...


----------



## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

InkedParrot said:


> I think in Abby's blog she described it as a "freak wave" that hit the boat and broke of her mast. This problem was not due to her age, but due to storms she came across. It seems that people think that these parents are sending their kids out to there doom, without even taking in consideration for their experience and skill of sailing,


Except... That those "freak waves" are all too common at 40deg S during WINTER in the southern hemisphere. WTF was she and the Sunderland family thinking would happen to her out there? Everyone knows not to go at this time of year; it's too late in the season to cross the Indian Ocean and South Pacific.

Read this article and maybe you will begin to understand why this whole thing was more of a publicity stunt than an honest attempt:

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

kd3pc said:


> "The attention whore parents drummed up the hype (and pitched the reality shows) BEFORE the feat, which i"...
> 
> and from where does this info come from...I have followed this, but not seen any reference to a "reality show"...
> 
> Please let us know where your comments on this come from...


Kd3, that was back on page 15 I think. No idea what the source was.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

kd3pc said:


> "The attention whore parents drummed up the hype (and pitched the reality shows) BEFORE the feat, which i"...
> 
> and from where does this info come from...I have followed this, but not seen any reference to a "reality show"...
> 
> Please let us know where your comments on this come from...


Maybe you should read the thread and links before defending these people:



CBinRI said:


> It appears that a certain California family really, really wants to be famous. Here are the reality show pitches from the entertainment company that they have been working with throughout:
> 
> Magnetic Entertainment > Home
> 
> ...


----------



## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

I think that if the whole family had been making this trek, and not just a sweet 16 year old girl, this site would be treating them the same. The majority would question their boat choice, their timing, taking children to a dangerous place, whether they packed every conceivable safety item ever made ( even though you could not get it all on the boat), and in the end someone would say "Well, they should have done XYZ". 

Never mind that it might be YOUR dream as well. Never mind that many of us have never ventured more than 10-20 NM's offshore. The one percent that may end up cruising and crossing oceans, be sure to check in here before you go so you can get great advise on what you should NOT do!


----------



## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

We were just as harsh regarding the fifty-something guy out of So Cal who rolled his boat before getting to cape horn 2 years ago also; and the twenty something who took a Rhodes Bounty out without doing any refit work and ended up stranded with a jammed rudder. 

You see; it happens all the time. Ill prepared or inexperienced people setting off to sail around the world and end up requiring rescue. I have less of a problem with Abby's age and inexperience than I do with the way in which they made such attempt (on a schedule so she could be "youngest"); which resulted in multiple equipment failures; and loss of time window for southern ocean crossings. It all comes back to a failed attempt to "be the youngest" and I have a big problem with that sort of sailing record. How many more will attempt this and require rescue (or worse die) before someone puts a stop to it?


----------



## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

Rhythm....and the group,

aw shucks I have been snookered...I saw that post, clicked on the video :48 seconds, saw that it pointed to abbysunderland.com, where I knew that clip was (seen it before)...and really felt that it was put together or fotoshopped by some creative folks on the board...to make their point...

I had no idea that it was real. I stand corrected for missing the "reality"....as I said I have not seen that elsewhere...

I still think that the comments about the parents/family being media "whores" is a bit strong given what we KNOW about the situation...danica patrick, erica enders, ellen mcarthur, even some of the guys have "Pros" do their tapes any more. Hell, even my son's highs school lacrosse team had a couple kids do "pro" tapes...nothing to do with a TV show, though...

anyway back to your regular monday morning quarterbacking. I hope to pump the holding tank, and head across the bay to Onancock or Tangier Island...not a risk you guys disapprove of, I hope or do I need permission from ???

tongue in cheek, out of here


----------



## InkedParrot (Jan 21, 2010)

KeelHaulin said:


> Except... That those "freak waves" are all too common at 40deg S during WINTER in the southern hemisphere. WTF was she and the Sunderland family thinking would happen to her out there? Everyone knows not to go at this time of year; it's too late in the season to cross the Indian Ocean and South Pacific.
> 
> Read this article and maybe you will begin to understand why this whole thing was more of a publicity stunt than an honest attempt:
> 
> Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


Thanks for the link, that was a good read.


----------



## Guero (Dec 29, 2009)

All the critics from Coastal cruisers and "let's steer the boat into the wind when I reach 20 degrees" are all very appreciated.

I wish I had the balls to do what this kid did. I'm 34 years old and still shake after docking on strong current/wind with a small 34 footer. Can't even imagine soloing a circum.

Lake Sailors and Armchair Critics at their best.


----------



## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

*Mast design?*

Ok, so I have a crazy question. You hear of mast and rigging damage taking boats out in a storm. Has anyone ever come up with a telescoping hydraulic mast, and even a secondary emergency telescoping mast? It seams if you could telescope the mast down, and motor, you could save the mast for later use. Or if your primary mast breaks, cut it loose and have an emergency smaller mast that could telescope up, so the boat could be sailed.

There are several redundant safety systems on the boat, why not the mast?


----------



## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

kd3pc said:


> Rhythm....and the group,
> 
> aw shucks I have been snookered...I saw that post, clicked on the video :48 seconds, saw that it pointed to abbysunderland.com, where I knew that clip was (seen it before)...and really felt that it was put together or fotoshopped by some creative folks on the board...to make their point...
> 
> ...


If you have any trouble out there you better not send out a " Mayday " . I dont want to waste tax dollars on you:hothead ! I rather give my money to teenagers with babies:laugher .


----------



## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

There is a car commercial where they just pull another car out of the trunk after the accident. Let's just do that....everything redundant. That way nobody has to wait and worry about what they are forgetting to take with them. Maybe just tow a duplicate boat. Should cover it! 

Now it will take longer to raise the kitty for the trip, but in some ways I think that is the idea in the first place.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

" a telescoping hydraulic mast, "
ROFLMAO.
There are telescoping masts, air or hydraulic powered, commonly used for military radio masts and on the top of every "Nooze Van" TV truck.
They are expensive, fragile, heavy, maintenance intensive machines that could never be successfully adapted to sailing needs. It would be cheaper, lighter, and more reliable to use a much heavier mast, and carry a whole second spare one aboard.
And even then, it still could't take the loads imposed by sails full of water if the boat rolled, broached, or pitchpoled.

OTOH a kite sail could be deployed without any mast. They're being tested now as a way to lower fuel consumption on tankers and freighters. It still won't be cheap, or convenient to stow on a boat that is RACING.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

kd3pc said:


> anyway back to your regular monday morning quarterbacking. I hope to pump the holding tank, and head across the bay to Onancock or Tangier Island...not a risk you guys disapprove of, I hope or do I need permission from ???
> 
> tongue in cheek, out of here


Are you the youngest to try this feat???

Are you looking for sponsors to underwrite the costs of this adventure?

Will there be a video?


----------



## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

hellosailor said:


> " a telescoping hydraulic mast, "
> ROFLMAO.
> There are telescoping masts, air or hydraulic powered, commonly used for military radio masts and on the top of every "Nooze Van" TV truck.
> They are expensive, fragile, heavy, maintenance intensive machines that could never be successfully adapted to sailing needs. It would be cheaper, lighter, and more reliable to use a much heavier mast, and carry a whole second spare one aboard.
> ...


Actually a kite is more efficient than a spinnaker. The downside is that you're definitely not going to solo sail a kite. If someone devised a good method of flying a kite solo for long distance, it would be a good way to make it home after a demasting.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Kites are only good if you are going DOWNWIND.... and not very good in heavy weather... ask Dom Mee. 



US27inKS said:


> Actually a kite is more efficient than a spinnaker. The downside is that you're definitely not going to solo sail a kite. If someone devised a good method of flying a kite solo for long distance, it would be a good way to make it home after a demasting.


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

US27inKS said:


> If someone devised a good method of flying a kite solo for long distance, it would be a good way to make it home after a demasting.


I could fly a kite single handed, it just wouldn't be a very big one.


----------



## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Daveinet said:


> Ok, so I have a crazy question. You hear of mast and rigging damage taking boats out in a storm. Has anyone ever come up with a telescoping hydraulic mast, and even a secondary emergency telescoping mast? It seams if you could telescope the mast down, and motor, you could save the mast for later use. Or if your primary mast breaks, cut it loose and have an emergency smaller mast that could telescope up, so the boat could be sailed.
> 
> There are several redundant safety systems on the boat, why not the mast?


Most sailors that find themselves in that situation will try to jury rig something to get the boat sailing. Usually by using what remains of the original rigging. 
I wonder how capable little Abby would be at jury rigging a mast out of an old boom. I wonder if a sixteen year old child has enough experience with tools and materials to make something work. 
For that matter, I wonder if she could deploy a sea anchor. I wonder if she could splice wire or even rope.

This whole thing was simply another installment of the Sunderland's quest for publicity and money.
It was irresponsible and ill conceived. But what really bugs me is the talk about trying it again while the mother says publicly that they aren't a wealthy family. 
Well, by most of the worlds standards they are wealthy but they are poor parents who are teaching their child that she doesn't have to take responsibility for her own actions.

I have no problem when a man or woman decides to attempt to do something challenging or daring or adventurous. What I have a problem with is spoiled people who think that they have a right to be rescued, to endanger the lives of other people at great costs while having their little adventures. 
If you go to sea, you should be prepared or else willing to pay the consequences.

Abby's mother says that they can't afford to pay back the three hundred grand or so that it cost the Aussie government for this rescue. And yet they are talking about trying it again. 
I don't know that anyone is formally asking for reimbursement, but they should at least have the class to offer any proceeds from the marketing of this stunt to a reputable Australian charity instead of appearing like self centered entitled people that they are coming across as.

I think this whole thing reflects badly on sailors for not regulating our selves. 
The next thing we hear will be calls for requiring insurance before we are allowed to sail in the waters of countries that provide search and rescue.

I'm really glad that she was saved, but she should have never been out there in the first place.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

+1 knot.


----------



## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

My sentiments exactly, Knothead; Well said. My only comment is that at 16; she -could- know how to do splices and make minor repairs, it's a matter of exposure to such things which she may have picked up from her family's business (boat yard?). Having the ability and strength to put up a jury rig by herself is another question.

One comment I find telling is that she felt like it took longer than she thought would be necessary to get rescued. What she does not realize is that when you are in the middle of the ocean; odds are higher that you won't be found before the battery in the EPIRB goes dead. Would Australia have scrambled a chartered 747 for you or me? (I don't think so)

I think this is a little reality check that hopefully she will learn from and use to make more wise decisions in her future sailing career (like doing some crewing on passages or ocean races first).


----------



## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

I agree as well! When I was sixteen, it was tough enough to set the points on my old Beetle, let alone, sail the globe. I kept watching the b-roll of her on various online videos and interviews and thinking - she doesn't look capable at all...


----------



## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

sailingdog said:


> Kites are only good if you are going DOWNWIND.... and not very good in heavy weather... ask Dom Mee.


I agree that they're not ideal for many points of sail. I would tend to think of it more as an A-sail than anything else. I would NEVER want to fly one in heavy weather. That being said, if I were dismasted I would feel pretty good about my chances of making it safely to a port (any port) that happens to be downwind.


----------



## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

While I agree that Abby may not have been able to jury rig something to get home, she was still 2,000 miles plus away. Let's see, stay out there and sail to land in 50 days(if lucky) or ask for help? Give me a break. Be as macho as you want, starving to death for the sake of being the sailor with bigger balls than brains is not something that you should want on your marker somewhere. I did not say tombstone because your boat and your dead body may still be floating out there two years from now.

If age has something to do with it you may have to redefine the abilities. I know some very good sailors at age 20,30,40,50,60, and 70+ that would not have a clue how to rig something that would be at most less than effective.Does that make them less of a sailor? I should make sure that I tell them all to stop sailing because of that? Get a life!


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

knothead said:


> ...This whole thing was simply another installment of the Sunderland's quest for publicity and money.
> It was irresponsible and ill conceived. But what really bugs me is the talk about trying it again while the mother says publicly that they aren't a wealthy family...Abby's mother says that they can't afford to pay back the three hundred grand or so that it cost the Aussie government for this rescue. And yet they are talking about trying it again...


I have a feeling the corporate sponsorships will dry up quickly. Ditching a half-million-dollar vessel in the ocean tends to scare investors off. The reality show will never see the light of day. Who wants to watch a show about a wannabe?

I think this family is at about minute #14 out of their 15 minutes of fame. Good riddance.

It is both ironic and fitting that the hoopla will be all burnt out before Abby even sets foot on shore. I bet her parents won't even go to meet her.

I have no ill will toward the kid. After all, she's a victim. But when you live on artificially trumped up drama, it eventually catches up with you.


----------



## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

RhythmDoctor said:


> I have a feeling the corporate sponsorships will dry up quickly. Ditching a half-million-dollar vessel in the ocean tends to scare investors off. The reality show will never see the light of day. Who wants to watch a show about a wannabe?
> 
> I think this family is at about minute #14 out of their 15 minutes of fame. Good riddance.
> 
> ...


Sadly, I fear that you underestimate the extent of American gullibility. People will pay for and watch this lovely little girl who survived the ravages of nature. 
Bet on it.

I just hope she gains a little wisdom and insight from all this.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Man this is going to get stinky:






For what it's worth, just as I personally hold the parents responsible for the situation that Abby was thrust into on the sailing, I hold them responsible too for the crapstorm she will walk into when she gets home. It's just begun.

From an emotional/psychological standpoint for a 16-year-old girl, sailing the Indian Ocean in winter may well have been easier than facing failure of her venture coupled with the strife caused by the public turning against her and her parents. It's not going to die down quickly.

When Geraldo gets involved you know one thing....you've really screwed the pooch.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

That's 8 minutes of my life that I'd like back. Much as this video agrees with what I've been saying (especially about the reality show aspirations), Geraldo is really scraping the bottom to come up with some false drama. The headline says "Dad forced her..." but the Caloroso dude never even came close to making that accusation. In fact, when asked if it was her dream or her father's, he said "both." Then he kind of babbled about irrelevant issues of last-minute modifications and extra batteries, all while admitting that he knows nothing about sailing.

In typical Geraldo fashion, it's just more of the same trumped up hype (this time on the other side of the issue) that will deflate very quickly.

They're now at 14:30 of their 15 minutes. This issue will be totally dead by the time the girl hits shore. I'm sure that some cable channel somewhere (or this website) will try to fill some surplus air time with a new angle on this story, but it's effectively dead.

All this makes me glad I don't have cable.


----------



## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

Oh no, I have 3 90lbs batteries on my boat and...wait, I have even been known to have a couple of jerry cans aboard, does this mean I'm not prepaired to venture out of the harbor? Somebody please intervene.

Who is the "Whore" here? The parents or the rat who jumped ship? If you can't make a documentary about the endeaver then make a documentary about how the poor kid was exploited by her parents.


----------



## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

"Ted" is not a sailor. He said she stopped and added some 90 lb batteries and jerry cans and later inferred she had engine problems, that's why they were added. He is not qualified to comment on her sailing abilities nor the boats condition. "Saw some things I didn't agree with" what a moron. And Giraldo is not into sensationalism at all is he.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

SJ34 said:


> ...Who is the "Whore" here? The parents or the rat who jumped ship?...


Why does it have to be either/or? THEY ALL ARE. The reality TV culture is all about creating false drama. Just stop watching. Cut your cable.


----------



## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

smackdaddy said:


> Man this is going to get stinky:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At 5:47 the accuser says it all. He's not a sailor. Jeraldo is not a sailor, yet he makes judgements about decisions that were made by sailors. He calls her boat inadequate, but it appears that she lived through it. Bottom line is that the boat kept her alive, and that's all you could ask it to do. I suppose all the boats that are regularly taken on the sydney - hobart race are just as inadequate. A few of those boats are dismasted on just about every race, and some even sink. There have been years that the majority of the fleet didn't make it. Are we to deem these boats inadequate for the task at hand? Are we also to deem the sailors who participate in the race incapable of making such a voyage? I don't think so.

It's sensationalist journalism and you guys are feeding into it. Sure you could make a case against the parents for the reality show bit, but they are from California and the world revolves around TV out there. It seems that every time you see something happen in Cali there's a TV producer standing in the background. So what's new?


----------



## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Nobody died and nobody got laid.....Geraldo will be on to other things today.


----------



## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

US27inKS said:


> At 5:47 the accuser says it all. He's not a sailor. Jeraldo is not a sailor, yet he makes judgements about decisions that were made by sailors. He calls her boat inadequate, but it appears that she lived through it. Bottom line is that the boat kept her alive, and that's all you could ask it to do. I suppose all the boats that are regularly taken on the sydney - hobart race are just as inadequate. A few of those boats are dismasted on just about every race, and some even sink. There have been years that the majority of the fleet didn't make it. Are we to deem these boats inadequate for the task at hand? Are we also to deem the sailors who participate in the race incapable of making such a voyage? I don't think so.
> 
> It's sensationalist journalism and you guys are feeding into it. Sure you could make a case against the parents for the reality show bit, but they are from California and the world revolves around TV out there. It seems that every time you see something happen in Cali there's a TV producer standing in the background. So what's new?


I do believe that Geraldo is an avid sailor.


----------



## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

US27inKS said:


> Jeraldo is not a sailor, yet he makes judgements about decisions that were made by sailors.


Not arguing, just clarifying. He probably thinks he's a sailor. He has a 70' ketch in addition to the Hinckley.

"He's famous for his reporting style, but he's also an accomplished sailor."

"Between 1997 and 2000, Rivera sailed Voyager around the world, and the tales he tells about the experience are predictably swashbuckling. "I've survived a hurricane and been chased by Somalian pirates," he says. "Sailing is laden with so much crap - the tasseled loafers, the swells. I'm not into any of that."
Making waves - The Boston Globe

Here a picture I got of Geraldo in St Thomas a few years ago.


----------



## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

She was dismasted, called for help, stayed on the boat until rescued. All the right choices.

Lets hope she tries again, but without the pressure of media.


----------



## Guero (Dec 29, 2009)

SJ34 said:


> Who is the "Whore" here? The parents or the rat who jumped ship? If you can't make a documentary about the endeaver then make a documentary about how the poor kid was exploited by her parents.


it sure include people in this thread. The horse is almost dead and people keep beating on it, mostly by people 3 times her age who have never sailed away from the shore.


----------



## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

Guero said:


> it sure include people in this thread. The horse is almost dead and people keep beating on it, mostly by people 3 times her age who have never sailed away from the shore.


Bien dicho.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

The more I read about the preparations for this trip, the rush to get it going, the seemingly poor planning, the lack of thorough equipment testing...one thing is for sure...

Abby Sunderland is one seriously ballsy chick to be willing to sail her boat in the direction everyone, from the comfort of shore, was frantically pointing. 

I hope she tries it again when she's a bit older.


----------



## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

knothead said:


> Not arguing, just clarifying. He probably thinks he's a sailor. He has a 70' ketch in addition to the Hinckley.
> 
> "He's famous for his reporting style, but he's also an accomplished sailor."
> 
> ...


Apparently I stand corrected about Geraldo not being a sailor. I have to wonder if his swashbuckling stories of adventure at sea leave out a few things. Like a full crew including captain that makes sure the boss has an enjoyable ride in lovely weather with clear skies and moderate breeze.


----------



## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

knothead said:


> He probably thinks he's a sailor. He has a 70' ketch in addition to the Hinckley.


Somehow I don't see him taking that out for a spin with the kids.


----------



## Circlt (May 17, 2009)

*I will watch and learn*

I am not a sailor, I just long to be. Maybe in a different life I would have had the opportunities to feel the spray in my face and experience the serenity of the waves as they rocked me to sleep in moonlight. I am just a working mom who chose horses instead. But don't get me wrong. I hang out and lurk on sailing sites because I know it would have offered me the adventure of a lifetime had I gone in that direction. Life is too short to experience all it has to offer, unless you have a ton of cash and throw other priorities to the wind. But for most of us, that is not realistic and not something we can do with our short time on this earth.

For Abby, and her brother Zack, that IS real life. And I crave to watch it and be a part of it just as Americans love baseball or football or concerts or art. Some of us, more than I care to say, are too locked in our worlds to do anything but sit on the sidelines and long for the opportunity to be welcomed into that world through a book, a website or television or video or even a written diary. We can feel it, we can see it, we can taste it, through the incredible pursuits of others.

The fact that Abby is so young just makes it all that more appealing. As I remember what it was like to be 16 (if I can remember that far back), I can not imagine the fortitude and sheer guts it took to do what she has done. I admire her, I respect her, and I wanted to be her, long ago.

I welcome the opportunity to be further invited into her world and share the behind the scenes nuances that would otherwise never be shared. I do not judge her parents at all because it is their decision and I know how difficult it must have been, to trust and have so much faith in someone so young, but also knowing there was a higher power as well at work. I am sure their good judgment was based on experiences beyond what most of us could ever even imagine.

Please Abby, let us into your world and do not shy away from sharing. You make it so real for so many of us who could never experience what gift you have been given. Share it with the world.

And be damned the critics.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Circlt said:


> I do not judge her parents at all because it is their decision and I know how difficult it must have been, to trust and have so much faith in someone so young, but also knowing there was a higher power as well at work. *I am sure their good judgment was based on experiences beyond what most of us could ever even imagine.*


Hey circ - welcome to SN.

I suppose I am leaning toward being one of the damned critics. Most of what you wrote is great, but the part above doesn't quite hold in my book.

From everything I've seen and read, single-handing an Open 40 you've owned for months through the Indian Ocean in winter is not typically deemed good judgment. Hence, the critics.

I too admire Abby. I don't, however, admire her folks or their judgment. As for the faith part, that would be far easier to buy if they hadn't been trying so desperately to profit off all this.

Oh, and BTW, there's always time for you to get out there and feel some spray!


----------



## Circlt (May 17, 2009)

*Hindsight is 20/20*

Smack Daddy, you are on point.

Many in the sailing community will argue as to the choice of vessel and the timing of the launch. I am not a sailor but from what I have read, it does appear that she will need to raise a plausible defense to those arguments, or, alternatively, live with the realistic conclusion that those may have been significant errors in judgment.

Tell me, though. Who, amongst us in age and wisdom, did not achieve those traits (age and wisdom) from both our good decisions, and our errors in judgment and the subsequent terrible, sometimes fatal consequences? We do not yet know the details of how those decisions were reached, or who made them (ultimately, who had the last word) or what obstacles they faced in NOT deciding the way they did. It is obvious to me that risks were weighed yet taken. There must have been serious evaluation at work. I do not know how much of those risks were weighed on the same scale as common sense, vs. faith, vs. profit. Only Abby and her family can shed light on those thought processes.

As for the profit and publicity aspect of it, I believe that, once unleashed, that monster has a life of its own way beyond what the "owners" can ever project, imagine, or hope to control or suppress. Humanity, and Hollywood, is what it is.

And thank you most kindly for the welcome, by the way. I do take a chance to sail whenever I can make it happen. Which is twice, I think. And it was soooo goood. : )


----------



## mpickering (Jun 11, 2010)

Circlt said:


> I am not a sailor, I just long to be. Maybe in a different life I would have had the opportunities to feel the spray in my face and experience the serenity of the waves as they rocked me to sleep in moonlight.


Circlt: Never too late to start. I'm barely above novice level and always learning and enjoying the sport. If you're anywhere near Annapolis, MD, you're welcome to join my wife and I out on the Chesapeake Bay. I love sharing the experience of being under sail to anyone who wants to experience it.

On Abby Sunderland, I'm not going to address the critics on the blogs and news forums spouting off about how her parents were irresponsible or that they should pay for the costs of rescue. For anyone arguing that someone caught in these conditions should pay for the SAR, ask them if they would pay they own rescue costs in their own small boat on a river, lake or bay sometime. They'd probaby argue "That's different.". Not to me.

Coming to the aid of others in distress is a duty written in the blood of sailors past. You do it because someday you may need others to do it for you. Offshore or inshore, we look out for each other. The sea has the power to make cowards of us all and you don't want to sever that bond out of some misguided sense of proportion or appropriateness.

I'm in no position to question the judgement of Abby's parents. If they felt she had the maturity and ability to do this, who are we to question? Why do your standards of what is right apply over those closest to her? They may not be your standards or your idea of acceptable but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

However, what bothers me is reports that apparently her parents are broke and were looking at media deals over her trip. Even if partially true that came as quite a surprise to me. I assumed based on reading her blog about finding the boat and preparation that her family had to be fairly well off. I got the impression that sponsorship came after the boat purchase, not before. Open 40s are not cheap. The listings I've found here in North America put prices ranging from $180,000 to $300,000 depending on age and fit. Even taking a low figure of $200,000, that is beyond the means of a lot of sailors. For me, that would represent the pinnacle of sailing dreams realized.

You certainly don't buy a boat like that without either insuring for loss or treating it as a throwaway expense in an endeavor such as this. If her parents spent everything they had and then some on this, despite doing it for the love of their daughter, that it something that doesn't sit well with me. What about the responsibility to your family as a whole, not just one child? Life still intrudes and you need to support yourself.

It sounds like a case of mixed up priorities. I've made my share of boneheaded financial mistakes (my first boat comes to mind) but at least I've learned to recognize at what point you simply need to stop.

Personally, I would love to follow in her footsteps in more modest goals. Just sailing the 40-50 miles to Tangier Island offshore would give me the sense of accomplishment a round-the-world solo sailor would feel. I don't have an issue with why she did it and given my upbringing, I would have encouraged the same out of my children if I had any. I question the financial judgment of the venture. I'd treat it as gambling and money lost with success uncertain to manage proper expectations. It's safer as hindsight has shown rather than assumption of success and fame never realized and leave you in a far worse position than had the attempt never been made.

Matt


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Circlt said:


> ...Tell me, though. Who, amongst us in age and wisdom, did not achieve those traits (age and wisdom) from both our good decisions, and our errors in judgment and the subsequent terrible, sometimes fatal consequences?...


Not to pick nits, but those who suffered fatal consequences are no longer among us in age, wisdom, or anything else in this world.


----------



## Circlt (May 17, 2009)

RhythmDoctor said:


> Not to pick nits, but those who suffered fatal consequences are no longer among us in age, wisdom, or anything else in this world.


Not to pick nits, dear doctor, but you miss my point. It is through the preventable deaths of others, those around us, our loved ones, and ones we see from afar, that we gain our wisdom for missed opportunities, and the ever present 20/20 hindsight that we should forever take to our hearts.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

mpickering said:


> Personally, I would love to follow in her footsteps in more modest goals. Just sailing the 40-50 miles to Tangier Island offshore would give me the sense of accomplishment a round-the-world solo sailor would feel.


+1 pick.

I've noticed that C27 sailors are really smart and well-spoken.

PS - Welcome to SN dude.


----------



## Circlt (May 17, 2009)

"Coming to the aid of others in distress is a duty written in the blood of sailors past. You do it because someday you may need others to do it for you. Offshore or inshore, we look out for each other. The sea has the power to make cowards of us all and you don't want to sever that bond out of some misguided sense of proportion or appropriateness"


Matt, that was so well said. I applaud that kind of thinking and try to live my life by those rules wherever I am. It is a gift to help others and the greater the risk, the greater the gift.

I work in the insurance industry where pooling risk is the basis of the greater good. I assume the boat was insured, so perhaps the risk was minimized, for the right premium. The way I understand marine insurance, the more prepared and seaworthy the boat, the better chance you have at recovery. So perhaps those factors weighed in their financial decision. 

I have to agree with you though, on weighing the needs of the individual vs. the overall needs of the family and priorities. There must have been sponsors, private or commercial. Perhaps those questions will be answered as well, in the coming months, for all of us to know. Financial transparency in this situation would do a lot to add credibility to her endeavors.


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I'd say that most of the people who have been critical of the boat choice, etc, were just as vocal before she ever left, they've been pretty consistent. Most I think are just too nice to say "I told you so". If anyone doubts it I'm sure the posts can be dredged up, there were whole threads of discussion here about it. I'd say those folks have actually been pretty tame in their response to all of this.


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Having acquired "blue water" insurance (SF-Hawaii) before, IMHO, Abby herself did not meet the minimum requirements for insurability, nor was her voyage insurable. I read that Wild Eyes cost somewhere in the vicinity of $500k and that her father received sponsor money to purchase her. The only difference I can see between the Sunderland's and the "Balloon Boy" family is one of degree. The captain of the fishing boat that saved her life came perilously close to being washed overboard and drowned. Real people could have died saving someone who was in pursuit of a publicity stunt. As a non-sailor, I don't expect you to understand the implications.


----------



## Circlt (May 17, 2009)

GeorgeB said:


> Having acquired "blue water" insurance (SF-Hawaii) before, IMHO, Abby herself did not meet the minimum requirements for insurability, nor was her voyage insurable. I read that Wild Eyes cost somewhere in the vicinity of $500k and that her father received sponsor money to purchase her. The only difference I can see between the Sunderland's and the "Balloon Boy" family is one of degree. The captain of the fishing boat that saved her life came perilously close to being washed overboard and drowned. Real people could have died saving someone who was in pursuit of a publicity stunt. As a non-sailor, I don't expect you to understand the implications.


George, your analogy to Balloon Boy is a reach, IMHO. Abby was well prepared, seasoned, experienced, somewhat well equipped and understood well the risks she was taking in her expedition. Furthermore, she MADE the trek, with those skills and tools she had acquired to do so, as opposed to that poor child pawn Balloon Boy, who was at best, a character in a staged play. He never left the ground. She made it halfway round the world and was dismasted in a storm. This was not a publicity stunt. It was a young woman chasing her dream and accepting a challenge. I don't think that is a foreign concept to many sailors, some of whom are as well aged as Abby is young, and yet may not even hold a candle to her level of experience.

No I am not a sailor, and I am not that familiar with the statistics and historical data on sea rescues. Tell me, George, are the majority of rescues at sea due to inexperience, stupidity, lack of proper equipment or simply a bad hand dealt to a well planned trip on an expensive well equipped boat by an experienced sailor?

You're right, being a sailor, I can't understand your concept of risk. vs. doing the right thing in a once in a lifetime situation.


----------



## bloodhunter (May 5, 2009)

I have kept out of all these discussion but there are some things that have to be said. 
She put people at risk -- a lot of people, the southern ocean is not a safe place to be. Thank God it didn't happen, but some of her rescuers could have died. And for what? So she could be the youngest to sail around the world. If this is adream we'd be better off with nightmares.
And argue all you want but teenagers have neither the knowledge nor experience to have really good judgment. Yeah I know there are lots of older people whose judgment is -- to say the least -- suspect but that does not negate the argument. And heading into the southern ocean at the beginning of winter sort of proves the point.
What did she accomplish -- well I think she just made government regulations more likely, if not on the federal than at least on the state level. And getting boat insurance may become a little bit harder. 
As for choice of boat, preparation, judgment, her deplorable parents, there's nothing I can add to what's already been said. 
It just bugs me that she's likely to be made a heroine of sorts for a failed publicity stunt.
And lest anyone wonder, I have done a lot of ocean sailing, though never single-handed. And if any of my kids had said they wanted a boat to sail around the world, I would have told them the same thing my father told me when I wanted a car --'You can have any car you can afford'


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Circlt said:


> George, your analogy to Balloon Boy is a reach, IMHO. Abby was well prepared, seasoned, experienced, somewhat well equipped and understood well the risks she was taking in her expedition. Furthermore, she MADE the trek, with those skills and tools she had acquired to do so, as opposed to that poor child pawn Balloon Boy, who was at best, a character in a staged play. He never left the ground. She made it halfway round the world and was dismasted in a storm. This was not a publicity stunt. It was a young woman chasing her dream and accepting a challenge. I don't think that is a foreign concept to many sailors, some of whom are as well aged as Abby is young, and yet may not even hold a candle to her level of experience.


That's a whole lot of supposition there circ. Prepared? Seasoned? Experienced? What data are you using to draw these conclusions - especially if you're not a sailor?

I agree with George. A matter of degrees - very similar motives.

Balloon Boy's parents told him to hide in the attic then cut the lines on a balloon which travelled to very dangerous altitudes. They then falsely told the world that a child was in danger inside that balloon, which turned out to be untrue. This so they could cash in.

The Sunderlands did far worse in my opinion. The actually put their minor daughter inside a boat she couldn't handle, cut the lines and directed that boat to very dangerous latitudes. They then told the world she was safe, which turned out to be untrue. This so they could cash in.

Abby is pretty awesome just to have sailed that thing as far as she did. She just should have "never left the ground" either...until she was no longer a minor.


----------



## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Another article written by Latitude 38; very critical of the Sunderlands:

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


----------



## sailjunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

Circlt said:


> No I am not a sailor, and I am not that familiar with the statistics and historical data on sea rescues.


Given the above admission, I'm not sure what you expect to gain by debating this topic with experienced sailors.


----------



## sailjunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

bloodhunter said:


> She put people at risk -- a lot of people, the southern ocean is not a safe place to be. Thank God it didn't happen, but some of her rescuers could have died.


All of your points are very well taken, but I particularly agree with the above point. Someone could have been badly hurt or worse.


----------



## sailjunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> The Sunderlands did far worse in my opinion. The actually put their minor daughter inside a boat she couldn't handle, cut the lines and directed that boat to very dangerous latitudes. They then told the world she was safe. This so they could cash in.
> 
> Abby is pretty awesome just to have sailed that thing as far as she did. She just should have "never left the ground" either...until she was no longer a minor.


I believe they call it "Child Neglect"


----------



## sailjunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

KeelHaulin said:


> Another article written by Latitude 38; very critical of the Sunderlands:
> 
> Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


Which confirms my feelings that her parents are beneath contempt.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sailjunkie said:


> Given the above admission, I'm not sure what you expect to gain by debating this topic with experienced sailors.


C'mon. Debate's always good. I wouldn't call myself an experienced sailor and look how smart I sound.


----------



## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Wouldn't most (if not all) parents who had a child sail out to sea (regardless of experience level) call the USCG and authorities telling them "my child ran away from home"?!? What happened with her home-schooling schedule?? Did she "graduate" early?

Somehow I don't think child protective services will be calling them; but one can only hope...


----------



## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

If she had stayed on her boat, rigged something to catch wind and headed for a safe shore she would not have needed rescue. She was capable of sailing that far. She is a sailor with skills. She would still have her boat and this thread would be unnecessary. Can't we go "away" on our own without risking putting others in danger and bankrupting our families? I know she requested rescue. Why do we put others at risk to cover the bad judgment or bad luck of every "adventurer" who decides to take this kind of risk? What happened to good old, "Good Luck!", and a wave?

I'm just say'n

Down


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

To answer your question. Historically, the vast, vast majority of rescues were, understandably, for experienced mariners as the vast majority out there were experienced. In modern times you could argue that Crowhearst was the first of the under prepared, under experienced fortune hunters to seek fame by sailing around the world. Since the advent of reality TV and instant fame(and fortune), we're seeing way to much of this. Your real question should be: What percentage of these fortune hunters requiring rescue? Unfortunately, far too many of them. Besides Abby, the "tin can" man and the vet with more money invested in camcorders than emergency rudder, all needed rescuing. Add in Abby's brother and you get a three in four chance of having to be rescued. Amongst experienced mariners, you probably have a one in a thousand probability of needing rescue.

Abby's "life long dream" of only three years started after her brother's own "record" was eclipsed by a better funded kid from Britain (record lasted a couple of weeks). 

<ORemember Abby had very limited experience. True, she sailed Wild Eyes from New England to Florida with her dad, brother and another man. Prior to her stunt, her longest single handed distance was an overnight from Newport to Marina Del Rey - and on that trip she buddy boated with her dad. In the three years of her dream, never once did she single hand the family Islander

The kinds of problems they had with Wild Eyes also speaks to poor planning and not appreciating Abby's limited skills. They woefully over estimated her ability to manage her batteries. She over worked her autohelm by poor sail trim. She allowed algae to grow in her water tanks because she didn't know how to change filters on the water maker or how to treat the water once in the tanks, having to dump an entire tank into the sea. She burned out alternators by repeatedly deep discharging her banks too far. She didn't know how to attach a spare antenna to her SAT phone once the primary was lost in the dismasting. They had routed her so far south so she could beam reach and did not route her further north where she would have had to sail in a close reach.


<OAm I impressed? Hardly. Is she courageous? Probably, but what good is courage without common sense? After brother Zack's sailing record attempt, what's he doing now? Is he doing the single handed Transpac, or Transatlantic? No. It seems that sailing no longer recognizes "age" records so he has now turned his life long passion from sailing to being the youngest person to motorcycle from the Arctic to Patagonia.</ST1


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

...thread... 

...wont...

...DIE!........


----------



## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

A solo "Adventure" isn't really solo any more. You are just alone on the boat until the "others" show up. A life raft can deliver you if you are lucky. If you have one and can deploy it. She had a freeken boat! There should be a place for good old "Natural Selection" in this choice to go solo around the world.

Just say'n

Down


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

eherlihy said:


> ...thread...
> 
> ...wont...
> 
> ...DIE!........


That's because there's actually a lot to think about here. It ain't exactly cut and dried.


----------



## Kiltmadoc (Nov 10, 2009)

Just curious: is Wild Eyes still afloat? I assume that the fishing boat would not have been able to scuttle her or tow her. Anyone have a link to her epirb and the location of the boat now? If so: one slightly used open 40 is now available (but smells like teen spirit  ) Free to the first adventurous person with too much money and lots of extra fuel.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> That's because there's actually a lot to think about here. It ain't exactly cut and dried.


But we've been down this road before... Jessica Watson (4 pages), Laura Dekker (6 pages), and now 7 pages of this... There are also multiple threads on each.

.... And now, I've just added to it again


----------



## zibadun (Mar 19, 2010)

Kiltmadoc said:


> Just curious: is Wild Eyes still afloat? I assume that the fishing boat would not have been able to scuttle her or tow her. Anyone have a link to her epirb and the location of the boat now? If so: one slightly used open 40 is now available (but smells like teen spirit  ) Free to the first adventurous person with too much money and lots of extra fuel.


I'd be very surprised if epirb messages can be viewed by anybody but search and rescue services.

there is probably no way for a 100ft fishing boat to tow a tiny sail boat without tearing it apart. I guess 6-7 knots is the max speed at which it can be towed without being destroyed by waves.

hopefully it will just hit an iceberg and sink or run aground somewhere


----------



## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

eherlihy said:


> But we've been down this road before... Jessica Watson (4 pages), Laura Dekker (6 pages), and now 7 pages of this... There are also multiple threads on each.
> 
> .... And now, I've just added to it again


Sometimes things have to be repeated many times before the message gets through. 
Some people have a tendency to be more influenced by romance than common sense.


----------



## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

Kiltmadoc said:


> If so: one slightly used open 40 is now available


There's already a donation link on Abby's blog to fund the retrieval of Wild Eyes.

Personally, I think we should keep this thread going until she leaves again. I give her 9 months to prep....you just KNOW it's gonna happen. "The Girl who couldn't be stopped.....The Indominance of the Human Spirit." I smell ratings!:laugher

Mike


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

zibadun said:


> I'd be very surprised if epirb messages can be viewed by anybody but search and rescue services.


Anybody can receive the signal, but the Coast Guard has the registration information that can cross reference the EPIRB identifier to figure out who owns the EPIRB. I doubt there are many EPIRB's activiated in the Southern Indian Ocean, it would probably be fairly easy for someone with a receiver to figure out which signal/identifier it is.

Brings up a more interesting question in my mind - if someone sets off an EPIRB, do they have the responsibility to turn it off when help arrives so that they are not using up the bandwidth of the frequency ? Or can they leave it on until the EPIRB runs out of juice so they can find the boat later ?


----------



## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

Early locators used 121.5, sometimes with 243.0 added. Now they are being phased out and use 406. Mostly they are received by satellite. The satellite may need 2-3 passes before a good location can be fixed. Some epirbs will have GPS incorporated in the broadcast signal along with the registration ID of the epirb.


----------



## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

The hull might survive; but the equipment will be so thrashed it will pretty much just be a damaged hull by the time anyone located and transported it. She was mid-way across the Indian Ocean; so locating and recovering would be a huge feat. Epirb battery/signal is probably gone by now; so any recovery would be working on last known location information. I don't think going out into the Southern Ocean during winter to recover a hulk would be a wise idea; regardless of the boat value (OK maybe if it was the Maltese Falcon).



downeast450 said:


> There should be a place for good old "Natural Selection" in this choice to go solo around the world.


Those would be the days before the EPIRB was developed... The good 'ol days


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

KeelHaulin said:


> ...I don't think going out into the Southern Ocean during winter to recover a hulk would be a wise idea...


Hmmm, that didn't stop them before!


----------



## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

I do not intend my remarks to minimize the accomplishment of single handing any distance in the open ocean. Any mariner can be overwhelmed by Mother Nature. There are risks, to ourselves, we accept when we depart on a solo crossing. Some of those risks preclude the help available because of modern electronics. Getting run down by a ship can destroy a small boat before help can be summoned. Falling overboard or pirates, used to be drug runners, can end a voyage with no trace of why. What concerns me is what the imposition solo voyagers can place on rescue services and the lives of their rescue personnel might produce as a response. Is there a point when protecting innocents in need becomes forced support of intentional risk takers? Should that point be defined? By who? I don't think it can. What it might do is result in attempts to restrict private travel in ways that will seriously age the "good old days". 

Let me see. Perhaps lifeguards on all rivers that run through national parks, to protect paddlers, would be a good idea. No? Then we can protect them by restricting their access. No? I am concerned that we will face further restrictions as this kind of service becomes a fail safe for thrill seekers. Let's privatize it! If you want to be rescued; if you want other people to risk their lives to cover the consequences of your personal decision to take mortal risks then anti up or deal with the risk! Put up the deed to your house in advance if you think being protected by others is important to your success. If that, or its equivalent, is too much of a risk; don't go! Her family must pay the bill! Thank goodness no one was hurt in rescuing her.

I'm just say'n

Down


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

downeast450 said:


> I'm just say'n
> 
> Down


Good post, Down.

It does seem like EPIRB's have made it easier to neglect basic preparation. I'm not saying that Abby Sunderland did not have basic preparation, I'm just saying that the very fact that there is such a thing as an EPIRB makes it easier not to prepare. Why bother preparing for unlikely risks if you know that with the push of a button you can be pulled off of the boat in an emergency ? Before EPIRB's you had to prepare, because if you didn't and it all went wrong, you were on your own. It just seems like there is the potential for EPIRB's to actually reduce safety instead of enhance it, instead of people being prepared AND having an EPIRB, it's now possible to not be prepared and use the EPIRB as a substitute for preparation. I think the creators of EPIRB intended for it to be a last resort, not a primary means of dealing with adversity.

It all sort of reminds you of those people who let their gas tank get down to empty because they know that their city runs vehicles to help standed motorists who run out of gas.


----------



## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

I'll tell you what. There is great value in having people like Abby and Jessica in society. The lessons these kids will learn will build character way beyond their years. There are kids we will not find drugged up and pregnant in some alley some where collecting welfare. I admire parents like these who are able to raise their kids with the level of maturity to handle situations as difficult as a solo sail. These will be kids who are capable of thinking for themselves, outside the box. They will be able to solve insurmountable problems. These are kids who will be able to stand up to adversity, capable of doing what it right when everything around them is falling apart. 

So many parents today are raising sheep. Protecting their kids every where they turn. Assuming that no pain is gain and that trials are child abuse. Look back in history. There are some tough people who got us where we are today. If all parents were like some of these posters, the earth would still be flat, there would be no Americas, and we would all be driving horse and buggies. We need to raise strong kids.


----------



## Maxboatspeed (Apr 11, 2010)

*Abby rocks*

Here it is:

Abby, her boat, support, goal, decisions, end result, age, etc
Well, interesting stuff. I gotta say this:

I get ticked at comments ripping the whole deal. 
1st off - she's capable. She has (had) support, equipment, ect.
2nd- She has knowledge, ability, and other skills that are way beyond most of you naysayers. 
3 -SAR is much more then body/$ ratios. Really. 
Ya, I can get that talking about SAR is a thing.
Dissing her cause she used it when needed - Lay off.

Realize that this effort had lots of backing from guys that should know. 
Abby, and team, put much consideration into the deal.

Abby made a decision to call for help.
She knew what that decision implied.
She compared choices, weighed options, and made a tough decision.
She lives, boat dies, and lots of stuff gets involved.
She made important decisions.
To challenge her choice at sea is not appropriate.
Don't give Capt Abby a hard time.

Fact is, she's probably mature and confident enough to disregard every comment judging her actions.

Abby - if you're out there?
Sorry your record attempt failed. 
Sorry bout the boat.
Bummer about having to bail. 
Glad you lived (good job).
No matter what, you made the right choice at the time!
Trying, crashing, living. Huge.

Oh ya - thanks to the Mariners and SAR guys that were there for Abby. 
THANKS!
Max
ps if any want to piss, moan, debate - OK but not here.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Daveinet said:


> ...There are kids we will not find drugged up and pregnant in some alley some where collecting welfare...


It can be argued that between the sponsorships that paid for the scuttled boat & equipment and the unreimbursed SAR costs, this girl and her family have received millions of dollars of welfare - money that could have gone to better societal benefits. I find it curious how people who make the "anti crack mom" arguments somehow don't object to seeing such intensive welfare going to a cute, rich blonde girl.


----------



## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

Maxboatspeed said:


> Abby - if you're out there?
> Sorry your record attempt failed.
> .


The fact is that the record was not going to be broken and that the rescue resulted in more publicity than had she completed the circumnavigation.


----------



## Maxboatspeed (Apr 11, 2010)

*SAR, epirb, etc*

OK
I looked back a bit. Seems to me talking about epirbs, PLBs, SAR, etc. is interesting. How do I start a new thread.
I'd love to discuss this stuff in general - what it means.
Max


----------



## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

RD wrote - "this girl and her family have received millions of dollars of welfare - money that could have gone to better societal benefits."

not welfare, but people who believed enough in the young lady to pony up with real money. And what better societal (big word) benefit would you pony up for...I would offer that the billions in handouts to lesser folk have not resulted in any appreciable change in THEIR society...quite the opposite...they are still where they were years back when they first got welfare from the gov't. Except with more kids, less self esteem, and further away from self sufficiency..


He continues - "I find it curious how people who make the "anti crack mom" arguments somehow don't object to seeing such intensive welfare going to a cute, rich blonde girl."

Money should be spent on those who show potential, will work for themselves and others, who are honest, reliable and truly interested in helping themselves to a better lot in life...Show me a welfare recipient who has more than one of those qualities...and that will be a person who deserves and is entitled to welfare....

the rest are simply wards of the state and deserve the nanny that this gov't has become...keep them in a place where there is no room for the growth and example that Abby and the others have displayed. Keep the sheep beat down....1984 redux...sometimes someone has to escape or throw the big hammer

Perhaps now is the time..

Go Abby and best of luck on your next try.

and RD - which is it, is she rich or broke, I have read both in these posts....


----------



## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

Daveinet said:


> I'll tell you what. There is great value in having people like Abby and Jessica in society. The lessons these kids will learn will build character way beyond their years. There are kids we will not find drugged up and pregnant in some alley some where collecting welfare. I admire parents like these who are able to raise their kids with the level of maturity to handle situations as difficult as a solo sail. These will be kids who are capable of thinking for themselves, outside the box. They will be able to solve insurmountable problems. These are kids who will be able to stand up to adversity, capable of doing what it right when everything around them is falling apart.


Baloney- they grow up and commit suicide

Child pilot phenom dies by suicide - USATODAY.com

Fame and seeking it is poison for kids.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Maxboatspeed said:


> Realize that this effort had lots of backing from guys that should know.


Here's the way I think that should read:



> _Realize that this effort had lots of backing from guys that should know better._


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

kd3pc said:


> ..He continues - "I find it curious how people who make the "anti crack mom" arguments somehow don't object to seeing such intensive welfare going to a cute, rich blonde girl."
> 
> Money should be spent on those who show potential, will work for themselves and others, who are honest, reliable and truly interested in helping themselves to a better lot in life...Show me a welfare recipient who has more than one of those qualities...and that will be a person who deserves and is entitled to welfare....


I never suggested that more money should go to welfare. I suggested that the money that was poured into supporting this quixotic failure was much like welfare, and could have gone to other uses that would have been less wasteful and more beneficial to society. I suspect that sponsors will come to the same conclusion as me. If she makes a second attempt it will have to be a low-budget affair because sponsors will not ante up for another mismanaged failure and the hype machine has run out of wind.

I could list hundreds of things that would be more beneficial to many parts of society. Some of those, like Head Start, do help underprivileged kids without being a handout to the crack moms. Some others, like university research into microbial consumption of oil droplets, could help society and fund the salaries of people who meet your criteria.


kd3pc said:


> ...and RD - which is it, is she rich or broke, I have read both in these posts....


Her parents pretend to be whichever will get them the most money at the time. Just like all whores do.


----------



## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

I will echo, "Go Abby". I have no argument with challenging one's self. The earlier the better. I do know that every book I read and every year I sail adds to my experience and capacity to deal with events at sea. To accept that a 15 year old has the ability to sail a boat like that in the open ocean is no stretch for me. I could have. I also know that my experience since then on both a practical and intellectual level have added immeasurably to my capabilities. A 15 year old has not confronted enough of the workings of the systems they will be dependent on to survive a trip like that under all conditions. You can not have acquired the experience. If you are lucky perhaps that isn't a problem.

I hope those who sponsored her effort are just as willing to pay the bill. That takes away the financial strain their sponsorship helped create. Putting others lives at risk as part of that equation deserves as much deference as Abby's. It is one thing to gamble with your own life based on what you know you can do. It is another thing to potentially put others at risk.

Learning by doing and challenging ones self are essential. Let's not forget it is the technology that makes it possible for inexperienced mariners to tackle a voyage like this. If no electronics or engine were available you would have to be a retired schooner captain to attempt it. There are circumstances where learning by doing may not be appropriate. This was not a learning trip. It certainly resulted in learning but its purpose was setting a record to be the youngest person to man the helm of a 500K boat as it sailed you around the world. WHY? And at the risk of life! An unreasonable risk for a valueless goal.

Just say'n.

Down


----------



## DwayneJ (Jun 16, 2010)

Maxboatspeed said:


> Here it is:
> I get ticked at comments ripping the whole deal.
> 1st off - she's capable. She has (had) support, equipment, ect.
> 2nd- She has knowledge, ability, and other skills that are way beyond most of you naysayers.
> ...


- Abby was in the southern ocean at the wrong time of year.
- She should not have lost her rig - Wrong rig for conditions (no fixed back stay) and no running with the storm.
- Abby had everything at her disposal to rescue herself - rig and sails were in the water still connected to the hull.
- Could not connect a backup antenna to the sat phone.
- SAR risks other peoples lives.


----------



## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

downeast450 said:


> Learning by doing and challenging ones self are essential.* Let's not forget it is the technology that makes it possible for inexperienced mariners to tackle a voyage like this. If no electronics or engine were available you would have to be a retired schooner captain to attempt it.* There are circumstances where learning by doing may not be appropriate. This was not a learning trip. It certainly resulted in learning but its purpose was setting a record to be the youngest person to man the helm of a 500K boat as it sailed you around the world. WHY? And at the risk of life! An unreasonable risk for a valueless goal.
> 
> Just say'n.
> 
> Down


And THAT is what makes this whole scenario ridiculous. How is it such a good thing that a person who can't navigate without a GPS, can't pick routing by reading the pilot charts, can't attach a spare antenna to a satphone some sort of great challenge?
This is about as useful as putting a monkey there.

FWIW, I doubt any of the old "schooner captians" would have even been willing to get onto an Open 40, much less than to take it into the Soutnern Ocean.
This whole thing was about Fame and $$$- Two bad reasons to go to sea in small boats.



> An unreasonable risk for a valueless goal.


Amen.


----------



## Maxboatspeed (Apr 11, 2010)

*Huh?*

Wellfare? WTF is that. 
Any support was not wellfare.
Yes, a lot went into the rescue. Huge story.
Still, it's not about wellfare. SAR at sea is a topic.

Any suggestion that Abby intended to sink her boat? People aren't that FUd. Are we?
It's easy to say "I told ya so" after stuff goes bad.

Maybe Abby is a rich kid that got in over her head. Maybe she should have avoided the situation. She may have made mistakes.
She knew more than most of you mean guys before she started. She knows way more now. If you can imagine where she was and the deal. - Oh nevermind. 
The negative posts about Abby are mostly crap. Even if you did know what you're talking about, Its not cool to pick on the kid now. 
If you don't get that, you aren't a sailor.
Safe sailng
Max


----------



## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

Maxboatspeed said:


> It's easy to say "I told ya so" after stuff goes bad.


IIRC, most of the people who thought this was a bad idea said so before she left. Same with Watson (lucky her).
I don't think people are "picking on the kid"- it's the parents who are irresponsible.


----------



## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Take away the publicity and she doesn't go. Her old man doesn't send her and she gets no outside funding. It's b.s. that she did this and/or was encouraged to do this for her personal development.


----------



## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

RhythmDoctor said:


> It can be argued that between the sponsorships that paid for the scuttled boat & equipment and the unreimbursed SAR costs, this girl and her family have received millions of dollars of welfare - money that could have gone to better societal benefits. I find it curious how people who make the "anti crack mom" arguments somehow don't object to seeing such intensive welfare going to a cute, rich blonde girl.


I strongly believe there is a HUGE difference between something that is given by choice voluntarily and something taken by force (ie taxes) and distributed to others. Welfare is taken by force from those who have (or had) money and given to those who don't. For the sponsors, it was a business investment, that may not turn out as well as hoped. That sometimes happens with investments. But with an investment, there is a probable expectation of a positive return with some risk. One has the right to do or spend thier own money in any way they choose. It is earned. On the other hand, Welfare is money taken by force. We are not given a choice if we want to pay taxes. Historically welfare has had a negative return overall. there are some exceptions, but from a strictly business standpoint, welfare has been a total failure. Truthfully, the most successful organizations to help others are charity sponsored, which is given voluntarily. HUGE, HUGE difference in return rate between welfare and that which is given voluntarily, either by charity or sponsorship. (and yes I voluntarily do give significant amounts of money to charity ~1/3rd of my charity goes specifically to those who help intercity kids.)

For me personally, coming into the story late, I formulated my opinion long before I knew anything about her being blonde, rich or cute. The only thing I knew was that she was 16 and was a female, and I said way to go kid for having the guts to attempt it.


----------



## Adax (Apr 24, 2010)

I tried to stay out of it -honest .

My random musings gleaned from this thread and others .

- Her boat was equipped to go out in the Southern Atlantic in winter it is said. If I saw correctly her boat does not have a backstay,to allow for a larger mainsail . So says the Latitude 38 article, but never one to believe I checked the fotos on her website. A larger main sail allows for better performance , but as she was sailing in the South Atlantic in winter should that have really been the primary concern? 

- she had autopilot, but the conditions reigning in the South Atlantic does not make this the best choice,as it has difficulty controlling a boat in heavy seas. Did she handsteer or was the almost killing of her battery due to overworking the autopilot ? Experience?

- She was an experienced sailor ! Try as I might I cannot find anything on her website that she had said experience. She sailed a lot ,crossed the border to Ensenada accompanying a friend of her father´s on his boat. The only singlehanding I saw mentioned was a trip from Marina del Ray to Newport Beach (a charitable 60 nm?? ) followed by her Dad in his boat. Can the years of sailing with her Dad from age 8 really be counted as experience for sailing around the world starting in the autral winter , when her powers of deduction,perception and judgement were still in the beginning stage of being developped ? 
And if she is really the kind of adventurous spirit portrayed on the website would she have not at least done something a bit more adventurous than coastal sailing with Dad ,just to see what it feels like ? She after all could not wait to sail around the world for the last three years or so ,so I would have thought that she would have aimed a bit higher arlier on. 

- when asked by a reporter in an interview how she will cope with being alone she answered .Well I have phone and it will be similar to being in my room for 300 days without seeing them . Hmm ,psychologically prepared?

- Epirb : From what I read she had two,one on the boat and one on a survival suit in case she ended up in the water. She apparently activated both . Good practice ? Or a case of get me out of here now . She did mention she was surprised how long it took for her to get rescued . 

- She was not going to write a book ,but on the French vessel she writes that she will after all as Wild Eyes must not be forgotten . Hmm ,why ? 

I would invite everyone to read of her exploits on her website. I gave up ,too boring . Maybe I am just not experienced enough a sailor to appreciate the finer points . Well, I am not a sailor, so have at it . 
BTW I am not denigrating Abby . She made it further than a lot of people, but that does not make this a sound venture. I am not sure if a 16 yr old can and should sail around the world nonstop singlehanded . I am inclined to think no but one must separate this general question from this particular exploit . 
Judge it on the basis of preparation and execution and if there is merit in discussing, how old you should / could be to sail around the world then this discussion should not be tied to this exploit as the causes that attach their flag to this venture muddy the waters . It is a question of preparedness,not feminism,not the success of homeshooling or anything of the kind. 

Btw,those are the "causes" I found that have adopted Abby in the media. 

- if she was not a girl ,they would applaud her 
- bravo ,parents are taking back their parental rights 
- an example to welfare society 
- homeschooled in a Christian environment (public education baaad !)
- all American girl - an example to others


----------



## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

I don't care if it was Zack, Jessica, Michael, or Abby; they all were doing something that they were not experienced enough (in years) to do; and put up to it by parents that have no respect for the sea or the welfare of their children. Shame on all of you who hold these people up as beacons of knowledge and good judgment of parenting.

Abby was put in a position of forced failure. The fact that she set off across the southern ocean at the beginning of winter is proof of this. All racing attempts are done at specific times to avoid the southern ocean in winter. So what are the odds of a solo sailor on a boat that is not designed for this type of punishment making it? Slim at best. In retrospect of her rounding Cape Horn (multiple knockdowns) it's amazing that she made it as far as she did. The point I am trying to make here is that she was not un-lucky. There are reasons for the failure; and GeorgeB did a nice job of highlighting them in an earlier post.

While I'm sure Abby is a fine and capable sailor; I don't think she was ready in experience for the circumnav and the boat was a poor selection for the task. Rushed decisions in an attempt to be the youngest; when has sailing with deadlines ever been a wise choice or good sailing judgment?


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

KeelHaulin said:


> The hull might survive; but the equipment will be so thrashed it will pretty much just be a damaged hull by the time anyone located and transported it. She was mid-way across the Indian Ocean; so locating and recovering would be a huge feat. Epirb battery/signal is probably gone by now; so any recovery would be working on last known location information. I don't think going out into the Southern Ocean during winter to recover a hulk would be a wise idea; regardless of the boat value (OK maybe if it was the Maltese Falcon).
> 
> Those would be the days before the EPIRB was developed... The good 'ol days


Isn't it a bit irresponsible not to scuttle the boat? Maybe not a lot of boats there now, but won't it end up being a hazard to navigation?


----------



## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

The protocol is to scuttle it when you abandon; but sometimes that is not possible. It could end up as a nav hazard; but the likelihood of something without a steel hull hitting it is very small out there. It will probably sink before it reaches coastal waters; and if it does it would be easier to retrieve at that point.


----------



## Maxboatspeed (Apr 11, 2010)

*Yep*



DwayneJ said:


> - Abby was in the southern ocean at the wrong time of year.
> - She should not have lost her rig - Wrong rig for conditions (no fixed back stay) and no running with the storm.
> - Abby had everything at her disposal to rescue herself - rig and sails were in the water still connected to the hull.
> - Could not connect a backup antenna to the sat phone.
> - SAR risks other peoples lives.


OK all true
yep-
it hit me wrong that some comments rip on Abbys actions. Many of these rips seem to come from ????? I don't know - guys that want to rip on the kid? 
Why?
Ok - I get that there are lots of reasons. Most I ignored.

Part of her deal was making tough choices, in tough situations.
From what I know - I would have made different choices. 
The point was that she was making the choices. She made a tough one.
Really tough. Mayday mid ocean.
I can't imagine that she didn't get the options. I can't imagine that she didn't have a clue what her action meant. I can only think that she considered stuff and made the call to save her life.

For others (some w/o a clue) to judge her life/death call is....
Well - if they don't get it - they don't get it.

Should she have been where she was?
Was the boat a good choice?
Was she ready for the challenge?
Was the team plan the best?
Was she the route, wx, risk planner?

My opinion - NO

should she have bailed to save her life?
She thought so at the time. (I guess?)

I'm trying to give deserved respect to this young adventurer. I'm attempting to relate to folks a long standing principal among sailors.

I'll try to spell it out.
A "Mayday" is a high level emergency assistance request. 
Sailors reply and assist any Mayday call rcvd. In some places (US) all that can assist, safely, must do so.
EPIRB activation - alone -with no other communication - implies that there is immediate danger to life/vessel.
So...
Everyone stops and tries to save the epirber.
Sometimes a guy in distress is SOL. sometimes boats divert from a job, sometmes CG cutters go, 800' ships divert, fisherman stop fishin, SAR guys get involved.
At sea - very big deal. 
All will do whatever they can to assist.
that is what they'll do, the same is expected of you.

Blindly shouting "Mayday" IS a big deal.
It's not nice to pick on people that are still in the process of being rescued at sea.
Max


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Part of the issue here is that Abby really wasn't ready, but had essentially a fixed deadline if she wanted to get the "youngest around" title. Sailing to a set schedule, especially if the sailor in question is a 16-year-old child that is challenging the Southern Ocean is a really, really, really stupid idea.

The biggest problems as I see it were:

The choice of boat was wrong
Abby didn't have enough experience with the boat
The time of year she left was wrong
Abby didn't have enough experience sailing
Her parents are idiots

Let's take this list one at a time.

*The Boat was the Wrong Choice.*

The OPEN 40 is a pure racing machine, and many of which WERE NOT designed for limited crew. The common mistake is that many confuse the OPEN 40 with the CLASS 40, which are designed for single-handed sailors, much like larger versions of the Mini-TransAts.

Wild Eyes was a pure racing machine, and the fact that she was limited to self-steering via electronic autopilots is pretty much proof of that. The reason she couldn't use a wind vane is that very fast boats cause problems with windvanes. This left Abby vulnerable to serious problems if the electronic autopilots or electrical system should have issues-problems she probably doesn't have the training or experience to diagnose or fix, especially while at sea. BTW, I base this statement on the fact that Abby didn't even know how to attach the backup satellite phone antenna when her rig came down. Some satellite phones, like the Globalstar and Iridium carrier based ones, can be used without a fixed antenna.

OPEN 40s are very beamy, fast and powerful sailboats. Being such means that they do not have a very seakindly motion to them.

*Abby didn't have enough experience with the boat*

The Sunderlands bought Wild Eyes in October, just a month before Abby's initial departure date. While she didn't depart in November, as originally planned, she did depart in January. That meant she had had Wild Eyes for less than THREE MONTHS.

I'd point out that while Abby did sail Wild Eyes down from New York to Florida, the boat was in transport between Florida and California for a good period of time, when Abby had NO ACCESS to it.

Also, how familiar was Abby with the gear aboard the boat. She wasn't familiar enough to know how to rig a backup sat phone antenna. She had to stop her first attempt due to electrical issues, so I am guessing that she didn't know the electrical setup on the boat very well or how to manage her electrical usage to stay within the boat's electrical regeneration limits.

I also don't see any articles mentioning how Abby was involved in the refitting of Wild Eyes. This is very different from Jessica Watson, who was responsible for most of the decisions made for refitting EPL, or from Zac, who re-fitted his Islander 36 mostly by himself.

*The Time of Year was wrong. *

Abby was supposed to leave in November. Even this late date would have probably left her in the Southern Ocean during the very end of the winter. She didn't leave until January, but due to the electrical problems, really didn't start her circumnavigation attempt until February. That put her behind what would be a reasonably safe schedule. I'd point out that NO ONE sails the Southern ocean in winter intentionally. None of the diehard, gung-ho, races challenge it then and for good reason.

Her two week delay to get the autopilots fixed in South Africa didn't help. I'd also point out, since she stopped, she was no longer in the running for the youngest non-stop solo circumnavigation, which was her stated goal. Yet, inspite of that she left, on a Friday no less, and continued on to the southern Indian ocean.

BTW, Abby was effectively sailing to a schedule, as postponing her departure in order to avoid the winter season on the Southern Ocean and give her the time to get to know her boat properly would have put her out of the running for "youngest".

*Abby didn't have enough experience sailing*

This doesn't have to do with Wild Eyes, though more time sailing Wild Eyes would probably have stood Abby to the better.

While Mike Perham and Jessica Watson have had fairly well known sailing resumes, Abby nor her brother Zac don't appear to. In fact, prior to her wanting to become the "youngest" solo circumnavigator, I haven't seen any mention of her in the sailing press.

Jessica had 10,000 NM under her when she left for her circumnavigation from what I've read-including a 1300 nm passage as skipper of a 34' boat when she was 15.

Mike Perham had his very public solo TransAtlantic crossing under his belt from 2006/2007.

*Her parents are idiots*

Yes, her parents are publicity seeking idiots. They had plans for a reality based show called "Adventures in Sunderland". They also had a cartoon character of Abby setup for television as well. They spent well over $500,000 of their sponsors money, closer to $900,000 according to one article, to buy Wild Eyes and send their daughter off in her at the wrong time of year, without sufficient experience or knowledge of the boat and its systems...


----------



## Anaconda (Jun 17, 2010)

I believe that it is not a question of age nor maturity of these girls who seek to set records for youngest to sail around the world. It is a question of competence. Jessica Watson demonstrated her lack of competence by falling asleep and T boning a bulk carrier. A competent mariner knows that the ultimate responsibilty to avoid a collision rests with oneself and the onus to maintain an adequate watch at all times. Abby Sunderland has demonstrated her incompetence by abandoning ship and leaving the hulk drifting around as a hazard to shipping. Poor form on both parts. Both demonstrated a lack of maturity by either taking a nap or thinking that someone could just pop out into the Southern Ocean and salvage the boat.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I don't know how many of you have seen this article (pointed to in another forum) Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude, but I think it MAY change some opinions on this particular adventure. It also provides some insight to what was _really _going on here.

For the record, I have NO issue with Abby calling for help. In her situation it was the right thing to do. I also admire her sailing ability. She has proven that she can handle a boat. However, that is not what the critics, myself included, have been on about.


----------



## Maxboatspeed (Apr 11, 2010)

*Yep*



cormeum said:


> IIRC, most of the people who thought this was a bad idea said so before she left. Same with Watson (lucky her).
> I don't think people are "picking on the kid"- it's the parents who are irresponsible.


Yep.

She was in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong boat.
I agree that getting into that place was a bad idea. I agree that poor choices were involved.

I agree with Smackdaddy - those that she depended on - should know better.
I don't dispute that the whole plan was a mistake.

My thing is this:
She made a major choice when activating EPIRB and PLB. Right, wrong, out of fear, under stress, misguided, whatever. Did she get it? I can't say. I can imagine that I may handle stuff differently. 
Hopefully she gets it. Hopefully, she understood the implications of her choice.
Maybe not.
Unless she's said otherwise, her choices (epirb, plb, ditch boat) are judgement calls that she made - based on concern for her life.
Her call. Her choice. Her reasoning. Hers alone.
Yes, there's a lot of things to consider.
Still - Guys ripping on her choice and action (epirbs, ditch boat) seemed uncool

I can get that she got into a bad deal, had limited skills, guidance had a lot to with it, etc
I am being convinced that guidance (and her dependance/trust of that guidance), and the general plan - Uh.. Was hmm..
had some risk. Was the risk level set too high? Did the team understand stuff? Did Abby get risks?
Hmmmm
yep, she crashed. 
Max


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Anaconda said:


> I believe that it is not a question of age nor maturity of these girls who seek to set records for youngest to sail around the world.


Well, actually, it is.

If age were not a factor, no one would be trying to accomplish the "youngest sailor to...," And, the PR machine would have nothing to promote, and the sponsors would go away, and Abby (and her parents) would have to get a _real _job to make money so she could buy a boat to accomplish her life's dream, and I would cheer her on, and toast her for working hard to acheive her dream.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd point out that the reason she was in the Southern Ocean with winter approaching has much to do with the fixed deadline imposed by her approaching birthday....*AGE WAS A MAJOR FACTOR. * Anyone who says it wasn't is in denial...



eherlihy said:


> Well, actually, it is.
> 
> If age were not a factor, no one would be trying to accomplish the "youngest sailor to...," And, the PR machine would have nothing to promote, and the sponsors would go away, and Abby (and her parents) would have to get a _real _job to make money so she could buy a boat to accomplish her life's dream, and I would cheer her on, and toast her for working hard to acheive her dream.


----------



## PierreMundo (Nov 29, 2007)

[_QUOTE=Anaconda;614119]I believe that it is not a question of age nor maturity of these girls who seek to set records for youngest to sail around the world. *It is a question of competence*. .................[/QUOTE]



eherlihy said:



Well, actually, it is.

If age were not a factor, no one would be trying to accomplish the "youngest sailor to...," And, the PR machine would have nothing to promote, and the sponsors would go away, and Abby (and her parents) would have to get a real job to make money so she could buy a boat to accomplish her life's dream, and I would cheer her on, and toast her for working hard to acheive her dream.

Click to expand...

In this case age is a factor, but I'm not sure this is what Anaconda meant. He stated that it was the questioning of competence of the girls. His 2nd sentence is "It is a question of competence". And I think that's right. When you look at all what's said by the pro Abby writers on this forum you can conclude that they would do it the same way as she did. So a lot of people, mature people, are not aware of the mistakes Abby made. And thus are a danger for themselves and their recuers. Very Scary!

So age is one. But competence is what you need. No matter what age you are._


----------



## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

In addition to mental strength. Sailing non-stop around the world messes with your head; and I don't see how a 16 year old would be able to cope with this as well as an adult. I'll cite Bernard Moitessier as an example. He went stir crazy while sailing the first solo circumnav race; ended up not returning to England and almost sailed around the southern ocean two complete times before he came to his senses and sailed to Tahiti. Had he turned for England after rounding Cape Horn he would have easily won the race and took the place of Sir Robin Knox-Johnston in history.

In addition to competence, there is ability and know-how to cope with problems, and mental fortitude. Sailing solo non-stop is an extremely tall order and while I still don't believe that Zack should have gone at his age; he did not sail non-stop and took a much more conservative route; which made his goal much more achievable. Jessica accomplished her goal after that -little- tanker collision (although not a long enough distance); and I think a big part of her success was due to the choice of boat and equipment.


----------



## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

ANACONDA "Abby Sunderland has demonstrated her incompetence by abandoning ship and leaving the hulk drifting around as a hazard to shipping."

I just checked my insurance policy. I cannot find any reference to scuttling the boat, only a bit about taking all possible means to lessen the damage and facilitate recovery.


----------



## Anaconda (Jun 17, 2010)

SimonV said:


> ANACONDA "Abby Sunderland has demonstrated her incompetence by abandoning ship and leaving the hulk drifting around as a hazard to shipping."
> 
> I just checked my insurance policy. I cannot find any reference to scuttling the boat, only a bit about taking all possible means to lessen the damage and facilitate recovery.


my point precisely, if you set of your EPIRB and abandon ship because you are a little bit uncomfortable and want someone else to go and collect your boat then I question your competence. If you are in genuine distress then don't leave a hazard to others behind or was she so incompetent that she didn't even have the wherewithall to scuttle her boat.


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I always liked that about the Ken Barnes rescue, that he decided to scuttle his boat. If I remember right he cut the hoses on the thru hulls or something like that and let her sink. I know that can't be easy to do, but it was a good decision.


----------



## ericread (Feb 23, 2009)

SimonV said:


> ANACONDA "Abby Sunderland has demonstrated her incompetence by abandoning ship and leaving the hulk drifting around as a hazard to shipping."
> 
> I just checked my insurance policy. I cannot find any reference to scuttling the boat, only a bit about taking all possible means to lessen the damage and facilitate recovery.


So let me get this straight. You measure your competence by referencing your insurance policy? :laugher

Or are you saying a drifting damaged boat floating around the southern Indian Ocean trailing its rigging is a good thing for navigation?


----------



## captainrobert (Jan 29, 2010)

i'll be praying for her.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

With all the info that is coming out. Punching that EPIRB was the smartest thing she could have possibly done.


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

I don't believe that criticism should be directed at Abby. 
Any person at that age believes themselves to be bullet proof. I know my own daughter was. It is the parents who have the task (in all walks of life, not just this one) to moderate the wild aspirations and set the child up for success rather than failure. No matter what else happens from here, Abby will always be "the kid who never made it".

If the child is genuinely ready then go for it but in this case Abby was clearly not ready and her parents never had the sense to see that. I originally said many months ago that if this child is lost at sea, the parents should be charged with homicide. I reckon they came as close as it gets. Lets hope they learned something from this.

Let's hope Abby learned something from this. To be sure the person who went to fetch her learned something from it - how much it cost him!!

Should she have pushed the EPIRB buttom? For sure. She was in serious danger and a long way from home. She must have been really scared. And with her limited experience she had no chance of taking a mortally wounded vessel to the next port.


----------



## Undine (Jan 26, 2008)

One thing no one has mentioned yet - Zac did it. Children at this age are very competitive with their siblings. Especially if the siblings are close in age. How much did that affect her "dream"?


----------



## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

ericread said:


> So let me get this straight. You measure your competence by referencing your insurance policy? :laugher
> 
> Or are you saying a drifting damaged boat floating around the southern Indian Ocean trailing its rigging is a good thing for navigation?


You have to love your insurance policy


----------



## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

Undine said:


> One thing no one has mentioned yet - Zac did it. Children at this age are very competitive with their siblings. Especially if the siblings are close in age. How much did that affect her "dream"?


Which even brings up another point. When those talk about lack of experience, the fact that her brother did it, suggest that the whole family probably knows more about what to expect than most of the arm chair players here. Do you really think that they were blind and deaf, and that the brother never shared his experiences? They had to have lived it play by play. They knew the details of everything that happened. If you are going to take on a task of something very difficult, do you spend most of your time talking to those who can tell you about how to do it, or do you spend your time talking to someone who HAS done it. I would suggest that first hand knowledge and experience is the most valuable tool one can get. We also have to take what is stated in the media with a grain of salt. The media rarely gets the story right, let alone presenting and accurate impression of the situation.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

The only flaw in that logic is that she took a different, and far more risky route than Zac. He had no details on her route - no knowledge. He HADN'T "done it".

Think of it this way...if rounding the Horn is the "Mount Everest of Sailing" - what she tried was equivalent to climbing the North Face of Everest, solo, in winter, with no oxygen, at 16...with gear she didn't have completely wired.

It was the route and the timing that got her. That's pretty easy to see - even from my armchair.

BTW - Anyone know how to get bean dip out of a snuggie?


----------



## ericread (Feb 23, 2009)

Daveinet said:


> Which even brings up another point. When those talk about lack of experience, the fact that her brother did it, suggest that the whole family probably knows more about what to expect than most of the arm chair players here. Do you really think that they were blind and deaf, and that the brother never shared his experiences? They had to have lived it play by play. They knew the details of everything that happened. If you are going to take on a task of something very difficult, do you spend most of your time talking to those who can tell you about how to do it, or do you spend your time talking to someone who HAS done it. I would suggest that first hand knowledge and experience is the most valuable tool one can get. We also have to take what is stated in the media with a grain of salt. The media rarely gets the story right, let alone presenting and accurate impression of the situation.


Sarah Palin can see Russia from her house. Does it make her an expert in foreign relations... A friend of mine is a surgeon, and tells me about some of his surgeries. I do not believe it makes me a qualified surgeon.

Abby had three years of sailing experience and little singlehanding experience in her Open 40. I just don't see how that qualifies her as an Southern Indian Ocean expert for winter sailing. However, if she needed expert advice in sailing the Panama Canal, her brother was probably quite useful.

I didn't intend to rag on Abby. She did great for her age and experience. And she certainly knew when to activate her EPIRBs. It her parents and advisors that should be held accountable for placing the child in harms way. It seems that Abby was just a pawn in a scheme for profit. Abby's life was seemingly less important to them than the lure of TV cash. That Abby survived this ordeal is the only positive outcome I can see of this entire mess.

Eric


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Daveinet said:


> Which even brings up another point. When those talk about lack of experience, the fact that her brother did it, suggest that the whole family probably knows more about what to expect than most of the arm chair players here.


Oh no way, I have to say something now. I'm one of the people who is basically for her making the attempt, I think the 14 year old is too young, 18 would be old enough, 16 is kind of borderline in my opinion, but I'm won over by the basic argument that she's got the right to try even if it is a bad idea. But claiming she has experience ? Come on! She's SIXTEEN, just how much experience do you think she has ? Maybe she has skills or natural talent or something, maybe, but *experience *? I mean come on what kind of BS will people say just to support a point of view ? I own sailing jackets that have more experience than she has, and I consider myself an inexperienced sailor.


----------



## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

One thing you are over looking is that she garnered some hard corp experience in the trip from California to the Indian Ocean, which included going around the "Horn" of S. America.
But I still believe that she chose the wrong boat for this trip. 
The boat that Jessica Watson used is a proven design for those waters. Even if it is only 34 ft in length. 

One minor detail... It seems as if everyone is relying on electronic fixes (GPS) and have not developed skills in Celestrial or Coast Piloting. So you only need to know how to read the numbers off of a GPS screen and not work them out by Celestrial or Coast piloting... Gesh! Talk about mental laziness.


----------



## ericread (Feb 23, 2009)

Boasun said:


> One minor detail... It seems as if everyone is relying on electronic fixes (GPS) and have not developed skills in Celestrial or Coast Piloting. So you only need to know how to read the numbers off of a GPS screen and not work them out by Celestrial or Coast piloting... Gesh! Talk about mental laziness.


I do not disagree with your basic premise. However, wouldn't being 1,000 miles off shore in a significant storm pretty much limit your options in this regard?

Eric


----------



## sailjunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

ericread said:


> I didn't intend to rag on Abby. She did great for her age and experience. And she certainly knew when to activate her EPIRBs. It her parents and advisors that should be held accountable for placing the child in harms way. It seems that Abby was just a pawn in a scheme for profit. Abby's life was seemingly less important to them than the lure of TV cash. That Abby survived this ordeal is the only positive outcome I can see of this entire mess.


Very well said, and I should have been more clear in my earlier post that it is the parents, not Abby, who need to be held accountable.

When I first heard about this attempt, my knee-jerk reaction was that no one that age should be allowed to try this type of voyage. After following this thread, however, I feel that experience, not necessarily age, should be the deciding factor.

That said, does a 16 year-old have the maturity and experience needed to make that type of decision? I have my doubts. That is where parental judgement needs to play a role. Abby's parents completely dropped the ball.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

" I feel that experience, not necessarily age, should be the deciding factor."
Well, wasn't it a 13-year old David who supposedly slew Goliath, with no prior experience at combat or giant slaying?

History is written by those who win the battles. So much for age and experience. Or to paraphrase Napolean Bonaparte, give me a general who is _lucky._ (Rather than brilliant, experieced, whatever.)


----------



## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

hellosailor said:


> " I feel that experience, not necessarily age, should be the deciding factor."
> Well, wasn't it a 13-year old David who supposedly slew Goliath, with no prior experience at combat or giant slaying?


Yes! We should rag on David's parents for allowing him onto a battle field where grown men where swinging sharp swords, spears and clubs.

They are now demonizing Abby's father. If Jessica wasn't successful they would have demonized her parents.

Youths do need to stretch their wings... And each teenager does this differently. All depends on where their talent lies.


----------



## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

In an age where Columbine is, how many years ago was it?..., other 16 year olds are 2-3 years into an unplanned pregnancy, or stoned out of their minds............OR BOTH! Even on this forum there are wingnuts that pop in wanting sunshire blown up their backsides with less reality-based goals for boat ownership, more concerned about me too-itis than their clear lack of EVERY aspect of sailing and ownership. So here's Abby. Grew up on boats. Got started early. She went sailing and at some point, had to ask for help. People did what people do. They went out of their way, spared no expense, to try to save her. A mariner was in distress. Because she had the proper equipment, she was easily located. During the rescue, the world sat on edge, just like when Baby Jessica was stuck in a hole in the ground, the world tuned in. Then the armchair QB's chime in. Why do we have all this in place if not to accomplish exactly what it does. Rescue. Save lives. If Abby tries again one day, I hope that if she gets into trouble again, she doesn't wait too long to call for help. Same goes for the ignorant wingnuts. I do believe, however, if there was some sort of mandate for boat owners to have to pay for their own rescue, it'd pretty well eliminate a big chunk of private boating. How many of you could handle more than a single $10-$15K rescue bill? How many would choke that out, then risk it again? So, do we end private boating, or do we limit it to 20 miles from shore and require something like a Sea Tow membership, and tough luck on an emergency rescue? One can parse it out at any age. Sixteen? Too Young. Inexperienced. Forty? An idiot. Crazy. Sixty? Too old. Senile. Hey, pay us to get in a metal tube and fly 5 miles in the air, 500 mph. Crazy, huh? Naaaahhh. You'll be with 200 other thrill seekers, so it's all good. Looks to me like Abby has the right idea.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"How many of you could handle more than a single $10-$15K rescue bill?"
SeaBreeze, I think you're missing the point AND you haven't kept up with current events wrt rescue policies. 
You go climb some federal mountains and call for a helicopter rescue--and you will indeed be given a bill for it. You go get lost in the woods in New Hampshire, and call for a rescue? They refer the case to the state AG's department (IIRC) and if they decide you set out unprepared and negligently, YOU GET A BILL FOR THE RESCUE. (Go hiking with no compass, no snowshoes, when there's a blizzard warning out, and you'll get that bill if you need rescuing. Get honestly caught short, and you won't.)

There is indeed a middle path, where the authorities are saying "Well, this guy got hit by lightning on a clear day, but that guy went golfing during lightning storms. this guy gets free help, that guy has to pony up."

And one more time: There is a global legal standard of "negligent fool". And that is by COLREG definition a solo racer who _isn't able to keep a proper watch _or stay awake and functional forever. By all means, let her have her fun. And then let's add the arcane concept of personal responsibility. Her actions, her choices, her lack of whatever, caused other parties to incur significant expenses. That was_ her choice_ so why shouldn't she be expected to pay for it? She could have waited for a weather window--as pretty much all prudent sailors do. Or she could have taken on crew, who might have been able to better handle the boat. But she _chose _not to. She _chose _to make a race for _personal _glory.

And you think everyone else should pay for her thrill ride? Hey, I like your thinking! Do me a favor, buy me a Ferrari so I can have a thrill ride too?!


----------



## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Typical. You equate a car ownership to a circumnavigation. Niiiiice. Remind me to never offer you assistance if you happen to be in distress. I wouldn't want to scratch my boat. Hey, if the world wants to enact some sort of deal where any adventurous soul attempting an independent crossing must have a rescue insurance policy to pay those involved, fine. We will just sit by and ignore all other distress calls. 
Solo Circumnavigation. That precludes a crew. Get it? She's not the first. Why dump on her? 
Climb Mt Hood when a storm is 2 days away? Yeah, that's pretty stupid. That's why only weekend warrior climbers get caught in it. I don't think it was the best idea to go for a record with the clock ticking down so far that it meant risky travels like the storms she hit. She did choose to go after the record was no longer an issue. 

Tell you what. Let's not rescue anybody! We can let nature just weed out the stupid people, right? They're not worth the money, right? Then we will have that much more available money to lavish our idiot politicians with. You want to ***** about wasted money? ***** about THAT!


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I say again, I think people who are trying to make this black and white, this or that, have an agenda. Sailing alone around the world at 16 is a gray area. If she was 40, nobody would really care. If she was 5, there's no way anyone would say she could go. But what about 18 and 10 ? Again, 18 probably yes, 10, maybe a few weirdo's would say that's okay. 17 and 11 ? 16 and 12 ? 15 and 13 ? See, somewhere in there you start to feel more comfortable about the numbers, at some point, 17, 16, 15, you start to become uneasy, and at some point 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, you start to think it is absurd.


----------



## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

I guess if I had an agenda I'd say you stay outta my backyard, I'll stay outta yours. Since you mention a 5yo, how about this? Two adult parents with their 5yo? You gonna be their parent too?


----------



## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Nobody, it seems, cared when 16yo boys were lying about their age so they could enlist and fight in WWII. Did we really need that many underage men to fight? When billions were spent on the Apollo program, men died all for the sake of a timetable that didn't allow for testing. Why? We had to beat the Russians. It was a matter of national pride, and since no rescue was possible, it would save a few bucks, huh? Funny. If the country is behind it, it's okay, even noble, but if it's not popular, you're just stupid.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I'm growing tired of this suggestion that spending half a mil on a boat is needed to ensure kids don't commit a Columbine-type act. My kids are drug-free, smart, witty, motivated, happy young adults, and I've never needed to push them into foolish risk-taking, or pour fool's money into a failed project. Sure they don't hold any world records, but they've had plenty of character-building challenges - including merit badges in sailing.

Suggesting Abby's failed venture is in any way similar to the Apollo program, or WWII? RIDICULOUS. And insulting to those truly meaningful efforts.

Also, I lived through the Baby Jessica thing, and I can assure you this Sunderland thing was nothing but a short footnote compared to that.

These analogies that seabreeze_97 are suggesting are absurd.


----------



## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

And they say CCA boats are narrow.


----------



## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

seabreeze_97 said:


> I do believe, however, if there was some sort of mandate for boat owners to have to pay for their own rescue, it'd pretty well eliminate a big chunk of private boating. How many of you could handle more than a single $10-$15K rescue bill? How many would choke that out, then risk it again? So, do we end private boating, or do we limit it to 20 miles from shore and require something like a Sea Tow membership, and tough luck on an emergency rescue?


Listen to yourself.

This is exactly why sixteen year old children should not be making solo circumnavigations. 
Look at what's being discussed. Reimbursements, insurance, limits. 
This little girl and her publicity seeking parents have caused a spotlight to be shown on the issue. 
You are decrying that people are calling for her and her family to be responsible for the cost of her rescue. The only reason the idea is being tossed about is because of the fact that this happened. It should have never have become an issue because she should never have been out there alone.

I can't say it plainer than I already have. If people don't regulate themselves, then the government will step in and do it for them.

What the saner voices here are trying to do is discourage people from doing stuff like this because if they continue to do so some cute little girl or boy is going to die and the rest of us are going to lose some freedoms because of it.

But it'll make a good documentary.


----------



## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Abby has two counts against her; 1. She is a girl. 2. She is blonde. 
Thus everyone thinks that she can't do anything without a man's intervention.
She did have the maturity to enter port for repairs twice. She did almost make it two/thirds of the way around the world. And with the modern means of calling for help she was found within a day or so. 
Now days if you get into trouble at sea, you activate the EPRIB and wait for rescue.
And before GPS, EPRIBs, and other electronic communications; If you got into trouble you had to rescue yourself... _(ask Capt Bligh about long distance in an overcrowded small boat)_ Now if these two girls did not have satellite phones, navigation, would their parents have allowed them to make such a trip? To be totally out of contact for nearly a year or more? These kids were never really alone out there. They had human contact with their families and that contact really helps in maintaining contact with reality.


----------



## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

knothead said:


> Listen to yourself.
> "It should have never have become an issue because she should never have been out there alone."
> 
> Who are YOU to make that determination? From where do you gain the moral authority to impose such sanctions over (allegedly) free citizens?
> ...


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

seabreeze_97 said:


> knothead said:
> 
> 
> > "I can't say it plainer than I already have. If people don't regulate themselves, then the government will step in and do it for them."
> ...


Sea, I don't think Knot was suggesting that government control would be a good thing, just saying that one thing leads to another. In fact, I haven't seen a single person on this thread say they want the government to stop any of the children.



> What I find particularly disturbing is how so many seem to regard a 16 yo life as more important as someone older. A previous post included the statement that if one were 40 and on a circumnavigation, nobody would care....oh, but wait. They WOULD care, if it were a 40 yo in the rescue crew. See, their life would be in danger then, and that's just wrong. What a duplicitous load of crap!


That was me, I am the one who said that if it was a 40 y/o person nobody would care. You are changing the meaning of those words - what I was saying was that if it was a 40 y/o person nobody would care that they leave and go sail around the world, meaning that we wouldn't be debating whether they were old enough to go or not in this thread. You are the one who is changing the meaning to say that a 40 year old's life isn't as valuable as a child's, I never said anything like that.


----------



## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

OK, so a rank amateur 40 yo should know what they're doing, and not an experienced 16 yo? More likely, a 40 yo will have just enough money to get themselves into trouble, like the fellow a couple years ago, bought a boat and set off, only to lose his rudder in the Pacific and promptly call for help after only a very brief time at sea. He didn't have a clue. Turns out, the old boat hadn't even been hauled before the trip, he just piled on gear and set off. Idiots come in all age groups. There are, and always will be exceptions to the rule. I would think one kid lost at sea would be a stronger preventive than any rule or law. "I didn't even want to til you said I couldn't!"


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

seabreeze_97 said:


> OK, so a rank amateur 40 yo should know what they're doing, and not an experienced 16 yo?


Do you enjoy putting words in people's mouth ?

I did not say anything about an amateur 40 y/o doing anything, I said if it was a 40 y/o person we wouldn't be sitting here in this thread talking about whether he was old enough to go. Stop making &%^$ up and claiming other people said it, nobody here is arguing that an amateur 40 y/o should be out on the ocean without any experience doing anything, you're just making up stuff to argue against.



> More likely, a 40 yo will have just enough money to get themselves into trouble, like the fellow a couple years ago, bought a boat and set off, only to lose his rudder in the Pacific and promptly call for help after only a very brief time at sea. He didn't have a clue. Turns out, the old boat hadn't even been hauled before the trip, he just piled on gear and set off. Idiots come in all age groups. There are, and always will be exceptions to the rule. I would think one kid lost at sea would be a stronger preventive than any rule or law. "I didn't even want to til you said I couldn't!"


Yeah, I agree, leaving without checking the boat out, bad idea. And ?

Why don't you just pretend that somebody here said that the courts should intervene, or that somebody said that kids shouldn't be allowed to drink soda pop, or something and argue against that for a while.


----------



## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Well I guess I'm kkkkk;uh;lh;kjh;kj


----------



## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

The same arguments have been raised and rebutted enough times for me. I give up. 

You can obfuscate all you want. It doesn't change anything. 
If you or anybody still thinks a sixteen year old is experienced and mature enough to sail around the world alone, then you or they either have never met a sixteen year old or just can't remember what it was like to be sixteen years old. 
If you can't see how a competition to see who the youngest person to sail around the world could be detrimental to the freedom that we as sailors all enjoy, (as evidenced by the whoopla that has surrounded this stunt), then you are intellectually blind. You have your head in the sand. 

A forty year old may not be as experienced at sailing (but probably are), but they are certainly more experienced at life. A forty year old life is just as precious as a sixteen year old life. The only difference is that a sixteen year old is not even legally responsible for their own actions. 

I'm done here. There's nothing more to be said and I'm tired of repeating myself.


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I'm pretty much done with this topic too I think.

I do want to apologize to Seabreeze though, I was a little over the top in my last post and Seabreeze is good people.


----------



## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Technical difficulties on that last entry. Were I sixteen, I could've solved it in half the time it actually took me. So Wind_Magic, tell me, since I seem to be 0-for-2 in understanding. What is it exactly that qualifies an old enough 40 yo to be taking all the same risks as a 16 yo that some say is too young?


----------



## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Knothead, last time I checked, a 25 yo wasn't responsible for their healthcare...anymore. Where does it end?


----------



## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Look, I have no problem with a law that prohibits sponsorship of minors. Ohhh, but then that might get in the way of other sports too, wouldn't it? Okay, so let's say that somehow everyone decided it wasn't acceptable JUST for sailing. Okay, fine. No corporate sponsorship. That'd make it much less likely to happen, right? I'm guessing so. Don't really know the dynamics of it, but that should be the extent of it. If I were in that situation, I'd hog-tie my kid til they were of legal age, whatever that happened to be, if that's what it took. I personally don't see the point of doing something like that just to have my name in a record book. I'd do everything I could to discourage it, then I'd bar the windows and doors, no matter how good they were at the task in question. In stating that, I'm sure it makes my prior statements all the more confusing, but really, it shouldn't. 
What if it were a 16 yo with a terminal disease? I can hear it now, the awe-inspiring story of the kid facing death on two fronts. So, the kid makes the trip, arrives to a hero's welcome, then they find a cure, or it was a mis-diagnosis. Oooops. Now what? Why would it be okay for that kid and no other? Because he's gonna die soon? We are all gonna die, some sooner than others, so what's the big deal? Just another conundrum to toss on the fire. Somebody stop me before I start quoting the "Braveheart" speech about trading all the days....for one chance, JUST ONE CHANCE.....oooops, too late.


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

seabreeze_97 said:


> Technical difficulties on that last entry. Were I sixteen, I could've solved it in half the time it actually took me. So Wind_Magic, tell me, since I seem to be 0-for-2 in understanding. What is it exactly that qualifies an old enough 40 yo to be taking all the same risks as a 16 yo that some say is too young?


When I made the 40 y/o comment, all I meant by that was that if she was 40, we wouldn't be sitting here debating whether she was old enough. That's it. It doesn't mean that a 40 y/o has more experience, is physically more capable, has a better boat, or anything, it just means we wouldn't be debating age, nobody would be saying "oh wow she's only 40, you can't do something like that until you're at least 60!" 

That said, I do think that age matters. As I said in my post (the same post as the 40 year old comment), if we keep taking the age down, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10 ... at some point it becomes very hard to argue that the person is capable of going around the world alone on a boat. 10, 9, 8, 7 ... see what I mean, 6, many can't even read at this age, 5, 4, 3, can't tie their own shoes, 2, ... can't talk, can't walk ... 1, can't open their eyes yet.

Age is an issue at some point, the number does actually have meaning, 10 y/o isn't just a short adult, we just can't say it doesn't matter, that doesn't make any sense. What do I mean by "matter", I mean that at some point you start to think the parents need to say, "hey, you're too young". That doesn't mean I think that there should be law against it or that anyone here on this thread has the right to tell anybody to do or not do anything, or whatever, I didn't say any of that, I do think the parents are responsible for their own children though, and that if a 5 year old says they want to go sailing around the world their parents should say no. I think reasonable people can agree here.

So if 5 is too young, what about 6, or 7 ? Or 12 ? Or the 14 y/o who is trying to leave in Europe to do the same thing ? Or .. yes, even 16.

You may think that sixteen is old enough, or you may not, but I do think it is a reasonable thing to talk about, because there is obviously some number that each person is going to think is too young.

That's all I was saying, was that it is a legitimate issue to discuss. The reason I said that is because too many people were saying age doesn't matter, but it does matter, at some point it matters. Like I said above, that doesn't mean there needs to be a law against it, etc, nobody is saying that, and I can't speak for others on this thread but from what I read it sounds like some people are trying to say is that at some age its a parent's responsibility to say no.


----------



## arbitrarysailor (Jun 18, 2010)

I find this whole thing rather odd. 

All the circumnavigators I've spoken to, including people who've worked closely with Abby, think that she was perfectly qualified to do the voyage and was not under any pressure from her family other than a bit of (healthy) sibling rivalry.

Sure, she could have been more experienced, but then anyone who doesn't think they could do with more experience is a fool.

Circumnavigation is dangerous, but not nearly as dangerous as it was in the days of Knox-Johnston, and yet when he left he was considered a hero. Ditto for Slocum... Sure, many thought they were raving loons, but that's kind of the point. As humans we have this inherent desire to climb the highest mountains, sail the deepest seas etc, be the youngest, be the oldest... etc etc. It is scary. Knox Johston said something along the lines of (paraphrased) "If you're not scared you're a fool". 

Slocum was going to go mad at sea, Chicester was too old and riddled with caner, Knox Johston's boat was not fit for the conditions, Chojnowska- Liskiewicz was too female, Jessica Watson was too young and she too had female bits... The list goes on. 

There will always be detractors. What if Columbus had listened to the men who said he'll surely die? What if Slocum had cancelled his plans when the whaling captains told him he would surely sink? What if Jessica had been convinced not to sail? Where would we be? 

There is an obvious thread of sexism and ageism that permeates this story and I am disheartened to read it. 

Sail. Sail until the sea swallows thee.

I am incredibly jealous that I will never be the youngest solo circumnavigator... but instead of whining about it on the internet I am going to aim to be the oldest. Saito is aiming for 77 by the time he's finished. I think I'll try and do it when I'm 80. (in 2060) Who's with me?


----------



## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

arbitrarysailor said:


> There is an obvious thread of sexism and ageism that permeates this story and I am disheartened to read it.


And that, friends, is why I don't have much more to say on this thread.  If you can read a sincere post like the one I made before this, or the one that Knot made, and dismiss it as "ageism", then I don't know what else to say.


----------



## arbitrarysailor (Jun 18, 2010)

wind_magic said:


> And that, friends, is why I don't have much more to say on this thread.  If you can read a sincere post like the one I made before this, or the one that Knot made, and dismiss it as "ageism", then I don't know what else to say.


Actually I wasn't referring to your post... I think you're spot on... a 5 year old can't sail around the world, but maybe a 15 year old can. However it is up to _them_ to figure that out, not us.

I'm just trying to make people realise that people like Slocum and Watson etc pushed the boundaries of what we humans think is possible. It's their dreams and we should be very careful when we tread on people's dreams.

Remember it was the scientists who said you'd surely pass out if you went over 100km/h in a horseless carriage.


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

arbitrarysailor said:


> ... but instead of whining about it on the internet I am going to aim to be the oldest. Saito is aiming for 77 by the time he's finished. I think I'll try and do it when I'm 80. (in 2060) Who's with me?


You're going to have to a whole lot better than that. I talked with a guy of 82 who was in Durban South Africa and who had been single-handing around the globe for the previous eight years and was now looking for crew to help him get to Cape Town because he had heard the coast line was rather difficult. After Cape Town he was again single-handing back to Boston to spend some time with his family. He would have been 83 or older by the time he got home. He said he may at that point consider swallowing the anchor but wasn't sure.

I also know of couples over 75 in New Zealand who are still not done with cruising and are all likely to still be cruising after 80.

So if you want a record you'll need to set your sights somewhat higher than 80.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"They WOULD care, if "
This is why sailors play poker and shoot craps, and keep a running tally instead of paying up right after every game. Someone goes overboard, and you ask "Hey, does he owe anyone money?" You've got sound financial reasons to save your crewmate, even if he is a bastard. Much simpler than trying to place _arbitrary _ or comparative values on lives.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Omatako said:


> You're going to have to a whole lot better than that. I talked with a guy of 82 who was in Durban South Africa and who had been single-handing around the globe for the previous eight years and was now looking for crew to help him get to Cape Town because he had heard the coast line was rather difficult. After Cape Town he was again single-handing back to Boston to spend some time with his family. He would have been 83 or older by the time he got home. He said he may at that point consider swallowing the anchor but wasn't sure.
> 
> I also know of couples over 75 in New Zealand who are still not done with cruising and are all likely to still be cruising after 80.
> 
> So if you want a record you'll need to set your sights somewhat higher than 80.


Texting on a BB, so I'll keep it short.

I admire anyone who does this for the right reasons. This guy isn't seeking publicity. If he thinks he needs extra hands for a leg of the trip, he gets them. He's making wise judgments, not cuttint corners to fit the criteria for some silly "record."

Those who accomplish truly new, unique feats deserve their fame. And they don't need a phony hype machine to get it.

But there's something perverse about these people who simply repeat what others have done, but expect fame & fortune by doing it in some trivially different way (such as at a young or old age) that is hyped up artificially by an indulgent media desperate for a "scoop."

So go find something that nobody else has done, nd do it. But spare me the crap like, "I'm special because I was 2 months younger than the person who did it a few months ago." It's the people who are hyping this up who are guilty of ageism.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

arbitrarysailor said:


> I find this whole thing rather odd.
> 
> All the circumnavigators I've spoken to, including people who've worked closely with Abby, think that she was perfectly qualified to do the voyage and was not under any pressure from her family other than a bit of (healthy) sibling rivalry.
> 
> ...


*I'd point out that this thread has very little to do with sexism or ageism, and that there are some serious deficiencies in comparing Abby Sunderland with either RKJ or Slocum. *

Abby did not rebuild or refit her boat as did Slocum do with Spray. RKJ was almost 30 years old when he set off in Suhaili. Neither situation even remotely resembles Abby's.

Most of the issues with Abby and her circumnavigation attempt, at least by those on this forum, have to do with:

A) She didn't have enough experience, both in general and in specific with Wild Eyes

B) The choice of an Open 40 as a boat for a relatively inexperienced and young sailor was probably the wrong one to make for a Southern Ocean circumnavigation. Its reliance on electronics and electrical power made it quite vulnerable to failure.

C) Her choice to leave and enter the Southern Ocean during winter was probably not a good idea.


----------



## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

That's a long thread&#8230;and that is my first post, so give me some leverage

I will post because I think I can contribute positively to this discussion, about the suitability of Abby's boat for the job.

Let me quote the most relevant posts about it:



JomsViking said:


> *Originally Posted by sailingdog*
> First, aside from the poor choice of boats, the fact that Abby left in January and had to start over and leave again in February speaks volumes about the lack of preparedness and experience Abby had with Wild Eyes.
> 
> I doubt that Abby really knows the systems on the boat or had much to do with outfitting the boat.Given that Wild Eyes was only purchased in October, less than four months before she was to leave, and spent a good part of that four months in transit between Ft. Lauderdale and California, exactly how much experience and time do you think Abby had aboard her?
> ...





sailingdog said:


> Pierre-
> 
> To not pick the right boat, right season and right crew for a given venture is foolish at best... BFS aside... IMHO, you really need to have a boat that you trust, know very well, and can handle in even the worst of conditions.
> 
> *An Open 40 does not qualify as a boat that can be trusted.* They're very lightly built racing boats that require a lot of experience to singlehand. They're tough to handle in the worst conditions and will not "take care" of the crew like a more seakindly design would.





sailingdog said:


> I disagree, the choice of boat was wrong IMHO.... I believe you're confusing the Open 40, which is what Wild Eyes is with the Class 40 sailboats.
> 
> While the *Class 40's* were designed to be singled handed by professional sailors-they certainly weren't designed to be single-handed through a Southern Ocean passage in WINTER by a 16 year old girl.
> 
> ...





alanr77 said:


> ...
> Was her boat not an Open 40? Which is a Ocean Race boat designed for a crew? ....





JomsViking said:


> *Originally Posted by CBinRI *
> I am confident that you are in the minority on this opinion but I respect it nonetheless. I have an S&S designed blue water capable boat of that era and I can tell you it is built like a tank. Modern racing designs inevitably sacrifice stability for speed. When you sacrifice stability, you must pay much closer attention at all times.
> 
> CB I respect You and SD's opinions very much - I sail a Contessa 35 and have sailed an (older) Open 40 (Not around, though), so I know both sides.
> ...


Let me try to shed some light on those myths about the seaworthiness of old long keelers and modern ocean solo racers:

First let me say that (contrary to what some have said) *Abby's boat is a boat designed to be solo handed*. It was designed to circumnavigate with a solo skipper. The boat is the old " BTC Velocity" and was designed by Jutson Yacht design to compete on the "2002 Around alone". After that the boat has raced some other minor solo races, like the Bermuda Solo.

No doubt about that, the boat was designed for solo sailing and to withstand the conditions that you find on the Southern Ocean.

Abby Sunderland's Boat - Wild Eyes
Abby Sunderland's Boat - Wild Eyes

Sailingdog is right when he says that an open 40 is not a class 40, but what really distinguishes the boats is that a class 40 is a limited Open boat, in the use of very expensive materials, in the use of canting keels and more details that have to do with providing a fast boat that is not prohibitively expensive (like the Open 40).

I don't believe CBinRI is right when he says : *"Modern racing designs inevitably sacrifice stability for speed. When you sacrifice stability, you must pay much closer attention at all times." *

At least in what concerns this design.

This boat, compared with a Contessa 32 (or 35) has a much, much bigger stability and in this case even the AVS and the inverted stability will probably will not be very far away from the Contessa ones. This boat is not a mainstream Open boat. Normally they have big transoms and large beams. Not this one that has a very narrow beam (3.41M) and a heavy bulb in the end of a very long keel. The boat has the ability to self right itself from an inverted position, even in flat water (with a little help from the water ballasts).

Abby Sunderland's Boat - Wild Eyes Self Rights

On the conditions that lead this boat to be knocked down several times (60k wind and huge breaking waves), a Contessa would probably be rolled several times.

I believe JomsViking, that has sailed both type of boats, has felt that difference in overall stability.

If you sail this boat significantly below the boat potential speed, this boat will be easy to sail and even so, much faster than the Contessa 32, at its max potential speed. Of course this is easier to say than to do, and I agree with SailingDog when he says that this is a boat for an experienced sailor. I don't know if Abby was that experienced, but I share Sailing Dog doubts about that.

Let me make a car analogy: The Open 40 will be a 9 year old Porsche Carrera and the Contessa 32, a 40 year's old Ford Pinto, both cars in very good conditions. The Porsche will break in half the distance, it can make the same turn safely a lot faster than the Pinto and driven at the same speed it will be a lot safer than the Ford. But put a relatively inexperienced kid behind the wheel and I believe that he will not resist in putting the power on&#8230;.and he will be out of the road in no time. A Porsche Carrera needs an experienced driver so does an Open 40.

Relatively to this "mania" of young kids trying to establish world sailing records based on age I only hope that this will not be followed by another record "mania" of old men trying to do the same, based on age: the record for the oldest man that circumnavigates with 80 or 90-year-old sailors trying their chance. 

What class of events are these records? Certainly they are not sportive events. If those kids wanted to test their performance as solo ocean sailors in a sportive way, they would be racing Mini-Transats (and discovering that they have a lot to learn). They are not voyages. A voyage is a process of enrichment and discovery and for that you have to see new things and interact with different cultures. They don't do any of these things. It is a Circus event? Maybe, but with kids that should be at School? Circus artists should be professionals, not kids in schooling age.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Yeah I'd agree with SD as well, and Paulo's car example. One side note: The Sunderlands home-school, a fact the media has had a field day with.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

PCP said:


> First let me say that (contrary to what some have said) *Abby's boat is a boat designed to be solo handed*. It was designed to circumnavigate with a solo skipper. The boat is the old " BTC Velocity" and was designed by Jutson Yacht design to compete on the "2002 Around alone". After that the boat has raced some other minor solo races, like the Bermuda Solo.
> 
> No doubt about that, the boat was designed for solo sailing and to withstand the conditions that you find on the Southern Ocean.
> 
> ...


To clarify-an OPEN 40 can have a canting keel and such, an CLASS 40 can not. I'd point out that while you can singlehand a OPEN 40, like Wild Eyes, *IMHO it was clearly not designed to be singlehanded by a person who only had less than THREE MONTHS of experience with the boat, especially on the Southern Ocean in the beginning of winter. *



> I don't believe CBinRI is right when he says : *"Modern racing designs inevitably sacrifice stability for speed. When you sacrifice stability, you must pay much closer attention at all times." *
> 
> At least in what concerns this design.
> 
> ...


----------



## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

sailingdog said:


> To clarify-an OPEN 40 can have a canting keel and such, an CLASS 40 can not.


Yes. I believe you have misunderstood me. That's what I was saying.



sailingdog said:


> I'd point out that while you can singlehand a OPEN 40, like Wild Eyes, *IMHO it was clearly not designed to be singlehanded by a person who only had less than THREE MONTHS of experience with the boat, especially on the Southern Ocean in the beginning of winter. *


I don't know if she had a previous experience with that kind of boats, but I have said that I also agree with you on that. I mean I have many doubts that she had the skills and training to sail properly an open 40 (or even a class40).

You know, even for hard skilled racers, the bridge from a mini 6.5 ocean racer and a class40 is so big that they are introducing a new intermediate class, the 9.5 class, for the young ocean racers, coming from the minis, to learn the skills needed to handle at full potential a 40class boat.

Classe950.com

Regards

Paulo


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Paulo—

I didn't misunderstand you, I was just clarifying what you wrote so others wouldn't. 

As for Abby's experience... since she and her family have not really posted a resume of her sailing experience, it is hard to say really what, if any, sailing experience Abby has. 

There's a big difference between being crew aboard a cruising boat, like those owned by her family, and being the captain and sole crew of an OPEN 40 boat. As crew, she didn't have to make the decisions, just follow orders. As crew, she was not alone and had someone to fall back on and others could double check what she was doing.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

PCP said:


> What class of events are these records? Certainly they are not sportive events. If those kids wanted to test their performance as solo ocean sailors in a sportive way, they would be racing Mini-Transats (and discovering that they have a lot to learn). They are not voyages. A voyage is a process of enrichment and discovery and for that you have to see new things and interact with different cultures. They don't do any of these things. It is a Circus event? Maybe, but with kids that should be at School? Circus artists should be professionals, not kids in schooling age.


+1 PCP. You nailed it.


----------



## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

PCP said:


> If those kids wanted to test their performance as solo ocean sailors in a sportive way, they would be racing Mini-Transats (and discovering that they have a lot to learn). They are not voyages. A voyage is a process of enrichment and discovery and for that you have to see new things and interact with different cultures. They don't do any of these things. It is a Circus event? Maybe, but with kids that should be at School? Circus artists should be professionals, not kids in schooling age.


Wouldn't it cease to be a circus event if there no longer any spectators??

I have avoided thus far becoming involved in this told-you-so, Sailnet special extravaganza of a thread for this very reason.

Whatever happened to just live and let live???

The chick wanted to sail around the world.....which umm well yeh is risky..... Her parents wisely or unwisely let her and she got unlucky in an unlucky part of the world. My only thoughts are just thank God she is safe and well.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Abby and her family made a spectacle and media event of her attempt. If she and her family hadn't done that, and didn't have millions in sponsorship dollars... then it would be a different case entirely.

I'd point out that there are plenty of people who are going on long voyages, even solo circumnavigations, that aren't pimping themselves on the internet and in the media...just sailing for the joy of sailing...



chall03 said:


> Wouldn't it cease to be a circus event if there no longer any spectators??
> 
> I have avoided thus far becoming involved in this told-you-so, Sailnet special extravaganza of a thread for this very reason.
> 
> ...


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Abby and her family made a spectacle and media event of her attempt. *If she and her family hadn't done that, and didn't have millions in sponsorship dollars*... then it would be a different case entirely.


Dude - where do you come up with this stuff? Millions?


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Smackdaddy—

I'd point out that the boat cost them $500,000 by all accounts, and they've been reports that they spend at least another $400,000 outfitting the boat. That doesn't count the money they've spent on their websites and other things... chances are pretty good that they've gotten at least a couple million between Zac and Abby's trips.

I'd also point out that I used the term "millions" as hyperbole to emphasize their fundraising and sponsorship goals, but that kind of subtlety is obviously beyond your comprehension.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Smackdaddy-
> 
> I'd point out that the boat cost them $500,000 by all accounts, and they've been reports that they spend at least another $400,000 outfitting the boat. That doesn't count the money they've spent on their websites and other things... chances are pretty good that they've gotten at least a couple million between Zac and Abby's trips.
> 
> I'd also point out that I used the term "millions" as hyperbole to emphasize their fundraising and sponsorship goals, but that kind of subtlety is obviously beyond your comprehension.


Now, now - no reason to get snotty. Actually it's not beyond my comprehension. Just beyond credibility.

Where do you get these numbers you're using? "...by all accounts..."? Which accounts are those? Seriously.

I'm pretty sure I heard her in their marketing video talking about a $90K price tag on the boat. Then there's this:

How much did Abby Sunderland's "2001 Open-40, Solo" boat cost? - Yahoo! Answers

Now maybe they did turn around and put another several million into the outfitting and website - but I'm thinking probably not. Look at the sponsors.

I'm just pointing out that it's always best to stick with facts when throwing down. And if you don't know the facts - that's cool. Just stick with what you do know. It's a good rule. "Hyperbole" can very often equal BS.

Go over to SA and read the thread there. You'll learn a lot.


----------



## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

chall03 said:


> Wouldn't it cease to be a circus event if there no longer any spectators??


*Yes, you are absolutely right*. But I believe this happened and is going to continue to happen because there are spectators and a lot of them. My heart got small when I saw the crown that waited, in Sidney harbor, that other girl (or boy). *That crown was the real reason for this stunt*.



chall03 said:


> Whatever happened to just live and let live???
> 
> The chick wanted to sail around the world.....which umm well yeh is risky..... Her parents wisely or unwisely let her and she got unlucky in an unlucky part of the world. My only thoughts are just thank God she is safe and well.


You still remember when you had 16? I was pretty wild and immature. I' am a teacher and I can tell you kids today are a lot more immature than 30 years ago. At the age of 16 they are kids and they count on the fathers to give them support and guidance.

The "normal" attitude of a father that has a kid that wanted strongly to circumnavigate is to provide the kid with the means and knowledge to do that safely. I mean, teach the kid to sail and then put the kid doing ocean racing and tell him that there are a time for every season and that he must learn first. When the kid is no more a kid, and has the knowledge to circumnavigate safely, he can decide if he really wants to do it and the way he want to do it (racing or voyaging).

At 16 years of age, the kid is doing it because their fathers want him (or her) to do it.

I know that a lot of you don't like rules and regulation (I don't like either), but that stunt would be impossible here. For going offshore without supervision (except for racing that is already under supervision) the kid would need a license that entitles him to do so safely. He cannot have that one unless he has 18 years old (the same with a driving license).

Before saying anything, think about all the lunatics, old and young, that have intentions of making ocean crossings, many times without the minimum knowledge, or the right equipment, and think who is going to pay for their search and rescue?

Sooner or later that would lead to a different situation: or a heavily regulated sailing activity or to pay for search and rescue, if it is needed. It is not as difficult as you think, it will be needed a *mandatory insurance *that pays for that if needed.* Imagine the cost of that insurance*.

Search and rescue incidents have been on the rise and I believe it will be no time before contributors starts to say:* why should I pay (a lot) for rescuing crazy people? *

If they want to do crazy stuff, they should pay for their rescue, if it goes wrong.

Seems sensible to me, and I am a sailor.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

sailingdog said:


> Abby and her family made a spectacle and media event of her attempt. If she and her family hadn't done that, and didn't have millions in sponsorship dollars... then it would be a different case entirely.
> 
> I'd point out that there are plenty of people who are going on long voyages, even solo circumnavigations, that aren't pimping themselves on the internet and in the media...just sailing for the joy of sailing...


I don't completely disagree SD, but I guess I don't have the same amount of moral outrage towards an attempt to recoup costs through sponsorship and support. I also don't see having a website/book/doco as necessarily paramount to putting on a 'circus'.



PCP said:


> *Yes, you are absolutely right*. But I believe this happened and is going to continue to happen because there are spectators and a lot of them. My heart got small when I saw the crown that waited, in Sidney harbor, that other girl (or boy). *That crown was the real reason for this stunt*.
> 
> You still remember when you had 16? I was pretty wild and immature. I' am a teacher and I can tell you kids today are a lot more immature than 30 years ago. At the age of 16 they are kids and they count on the fathers to give them support and guidance.
> 
> ...


With respect to the fact that you are a teacher Paulo, and so probably do know kids n general and certainly better than I do, my point is that you nor I actually know Abby.

To make absolute statements along the lines of 'her father obviously put her up to it' and to say she is too immature as a person is really only conjecture. I'm not saying that if I had a 16 year old daughter I would let her do it, I am not saying that at all.

I guess I just don't feel that little old me here on the other side of the world has any right to pass judgement on a family I don't know other than through the wonders of the modern media.


----------



## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

PCP said:


> ...You still remember when you had 16? I was pretty wild and immature. I' am a teacher and I can tell you kids today are a lot more immature than 30 years ago. ....


And why do you suppose that might be true? Maybe because kids don't spend that much time around their parents or other adults. like they did 30 years ago. BUT guess what, this kid was home schooled, which means she did spend time around her family and other adults. Home schooled kids mature much faster than public schooled kids. You very reasoning actually points towards Abby likely being much more mature.

On another note, ever since the balloon boy incident, we have this incredible suspicion of parents trying to make money off a publicity stunt with their kids. This event looks much more like a financially prudent parent who is just trying to finance his kids dream.

BTY: I found it interesting that this boat was previously used for a successful solo circumnavigation. It was built specifically for that purpose.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Daveinet said:


> ...Home schooled kids mature much faster than public schooled kids...


Please provide a citation of a research study that supports this claim. This sounds to me like hollow homeschoolers' propaganda.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Daveinet said:


> ...Home schooled kids mature much faster than public schooled kids. You very reasoning actually points towards Abby likely being much more mature....


Given the variation in the quality of parents, I seriously doubt that a blanket statement like this has much to stand on. I've seen home schooled kids that were very responsible and mature for their age, and I've seen some that were juvenile and spoiled.... same for kids attending schools-both public and private.


----------



## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

RhythmDoctor said:


> Please provide a citation of a research study that supports this claim. This sounds to me like hollow homeschoolers' propaganda.


A Harvard University (MA) admissions officer said most of their home educated students "have done very well. They usually are very motivated in what they do."

"Home-schoolers bring certain skills - motivation, curiosity, the capacity to be responsible for their education - that high schools don't induce very well, says Jon Reider, Stanford's senior associate director of admissions.

Article reprinted from Wall Street Journal:
http://www.oakmeadow.com/resources/...to be involved in their children's education.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"A Harvard University (MA) admissions officer said most of their home educated students "have done very well."
Well, isn't that mixing up causation and coincidence? Rather, he should have said the home-schooled kids "already had excelled before they got to Harvard" since we all know that Harvard doesn't let you in until AFTER you've proven that you're above average in _some _way.
Kinda like being amazed that everyone who gets signed on to the Yankees _already has_ some talent for playing baseball, DUH?!


----------



## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

The problem with the Open 40 was that the boat has a massive mainsail and uses running backstays to accommodate the sail. The boat probably was accidentally gybed by force of the wave on the rudder either overpowering the rudder or the auto-pilot (if Abby was not at the helm). So the boom gybed; the sail hooked the taught backstay and took out the rig. The fact that Abby said she was not able to reef the main (citing a stuck halyard) also adds to this as a possible reason.

But again; the only reason she was out on the Southern Ocean in winter was to make the deadline of her finishing before her 17'th birthday. There was no reason for her to be out there; she had already stopped in South Africa for repairs; and another woman solo circumnavigator (can't remember her name) who was in SA at the same time did not go; citing that the winter is no time to be making an attempt.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"The fact that Abby said she was not able to reef the main (citing a stuck halyard)"
Racers don't use downhauls, huh? 

And a 16-year old girl typically wouldn't have the body mass and strength to physically wrestle down the main on a 40'er. Heck, most grown football pros couldn't overpower a 40'er solo.

Sailing is a bit like steer-wrestling: You can't overpower the damn thing, you've got to outsmart it. Somewhere around 30', the "stuff" of a boat is going to become bigger and stronger than any solo crew can overpower.


----------



## dell30rb (Jul 16, 2008)

I definitely agree with the over 30' being too much to handle.

I have a 30' boat myself but I also have lots of time on my dad's 43'. I can't imagine having to jury rig the 43 myself. Even with 2 or 3 strong men it would be a challenge.

On my 30' boat, I could get it done. The hardware is small enough for one person.

Sailing around the world on a 40' boat alone, you need a plan to deal with a dismasting. Since she is not big enough to do it without help, she could have prepared by having a provisional deck step and extra stays already cut for her spinnaker pole, or something like that.


----------



## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

dell30rb said:


> I definitely agree with the over 30' being too much to handle.
> 
> ....


I don't agree. Remember that even very small women can sail Open 60's around the world. Of course they are small but they are very good sailors.

What I mean is that has nothing to do with human power but with knowledge and an adequate rigging. If I had to do it alone and had no monetary constraints, I would do it on a Cigale 14 or in a Rm 1350.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## dell30rb (Jul 16, 2008)

Well she obviously didn't have either of those, because she was not able to jury rig. 

I'm sort of surprised at this. I have never attempted anything close to round the world sailing but i've read alot on the subject as it fascinates me. Dismasting and jury rigging comes up quite a bit in what i've read. She should have had some sort of preparation, some plan in the event of a dismasting out in the middle of the ocean. To make up for her lack of size and strength.

In a 30' boat this is less of a consideration.

Others of mentioned her lack of engineering skills. I'm not saying to go sailing alone you need to be an engineer, but you need to have some tools and spares and knowledge as well as "mechanical inclination". Someone attempting a voyage alone needs to be a real problem solver. You can be good at handling the boat in all sorts of conditions, but if you can't fix things when they break you're screwed! Especially when you are out in the middle of the ocean.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, but they probably had more than a month of experience on their boat before setting off in it.


PCP said:


> I don't agree. Remember that even very small women can sail Open 60's around the world. Of course they are small but they are very good sailors.
> 
> What I mean is that has nothing to do with human power but with knowledge and an adequate rigging. If I had to do it alone and had no monetary constraints, I would do it on a Cigale 14 or in a Rm 1350.
> 
> ...


----------



## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

sailingdog said:


> Yes, but they probably had more than a month of experience on their boat before setting off in it.


You can bet on it.

When I say that I would chose a Cigale 14 or a RM 1350, I mean I would chose that kind of boat but I would do it only after knowing the boat well, and for that I would count with at least a Transat (or equivalent), probably more.

And these (Cigale and RM) are fast and safe cruisers, not racing boats. I guess I probably would be able to do that in an Open 40, if I would have more sailing time with the boat (Two years?), but I would not chose that boat unless the rig was depowered (smaller rig). Even with two year's training I know that I would not have the knowledge and experience to exploit the full potential of the boat. The guys that race those boats have a full solo racing career behind them (many years).

There are on the market some "kind off" 40class cruising boats, but they have a depowered rig, compared with a racing 40class.

I like those boats and probably if I could afford it, I would have one as my next sailboat. But I am sure that even depowered, this is a boat for an experienced sailor, and If I had one I am quite sure that I would be very careful with that boat before having a complete control of it and I am sure that would require a looooong time, not months, at least a year, probably more.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## kevlarpirate (Jul 17, 2006)

Abby's boat has way too much mainsail area. dangerous and difficult 
if not impossible to reef with good control. Boom should be shorter
and high aspect. Her boat is too light and snap rolls. When the mast hits water it breaks. Carbon fiber is NOT aluminum. Her boat has a low roll moment of inertia, hard to keep the mast out of the water.

The girl from Australia made it just fine and went through even worse weather and storms including knockdowns. She was sailing a 30+ year old boat.
Sound and designed by knowledgeable designers, not adrenaline junkie hot dogs. 

This episode with Abby , makes it worse on all of us. She knows no better

Just repeats what she is told
She said her boat was "designed" for class 0 ... That means nothing
a bunch of safety equipment does not mean the boat will survive,

Better to have a guard rail at the top of the hill than an ambulance
waiting at the bottom.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

RhythmDoctor said:


> ...I think this family is at about minute #14 out of their 15 minutes of fame. Good riddance.
> 
> It is both ironic and fitting that the hoopla will be all burnt out before Abby even sets foot on shore. I bet her parents won't even go to meet her.
> 
> I have no ill will toward the kid. After all, she's a victim. But when you live on artificially trumped up drama, it eventually catches up with you.


This thread made it for a whole week without any posts, and was well on the way to its appropriate resting place. Looks like my prediction pretty much held up.

Maybe I'm wrong - since I don't have cable or FiOS TV and am gleefully out of touch with the dozens of stations filling up airtime with worthless "celebrity news," but as far as I can tell the girl's arrival warranted barely a 5 second footnote on most broadcast news shows.

Of course, no controversy is too small for this place  , so I'm sure the discussion will continue here. :laugher Meanwhile, I'm going sailing!


----------

