# Money idea for someone with a boat?



## orionmetz (Dec 31, 2012)

Ok, so in vermont there is a sailboat shipping company; they ship local food without any fossil fuels.

So why don't more people do that? I know it would be dependent on ship size and weight restrictions but I imagine plenty of inhabited islands need regular LTL goods. I live in Long Beach, and Catalina Island has more people than space for farms, so I'm sure they need food daily, lol. 

There are traditional shipping companies that charge $300-600 a ton 1 way, I imagine a "green" option could manage 20-40% higher shipping natural foods and whatnot. Even if you could only manage 1 ton of loose goods in your boat each way it'd be 200/hr for sailing (plus load/unload); beats a day job.

Do you think there are laws that make it not worth the trouble? If this IS a thing how do you look into it? I know there are LTL freight sites for trucks, but not boats.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

My guess is there are more people who want their items delivered the next day, or even within a few days, than those willing to wait weeks or months and/or wait for the wind to blow their wine across the Atlantic. Doing without isn't trendy.



> If this IS a thing how do you look into it? I know there are LTL freight sites for trucks, but not boats.


Google.

Are traditional sail boats the future of trade? - CNN.com

http://www.sailtransportnetwork.org/


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

This post made no sense to me.....especially the math.....not to mention not mentioning the name of the sailboat shipping company . Like a non-info post......& if I understand what you ambiguously wrote ......someone could charge 20-40 % higher for this . I grasped that you were suggesting it might be a good idea.....& then it all went South.


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## orionmetz (Dec 31, 2012)

hhm, hadn't seen that.

and the month long issue wouldn't be a factor for catalina or similar, it's a 3-5 hour trip.


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## orionmetz (Dec 31, 2012)

1. The company is a traditional (meaning engine based) shipping company named catalina freight, I didn't mention the name because the idea that it would matter is nonsensical. I did the work of finding out how much they charge for shipping and then posted it HERE n the "info" of the post so you wouldn't have to go digging; a post that requires you to google would be a "non-info post".

2. The price increase hardly counts as "ambiguous", in California many people will pay a premium to have a lower carbon footprint, and a sailboat uses considerably less. "Green" alternatives to traditional industries (shipping, farming, energy) routinely charge 20-40% more to provide similar services or goods on the grounds that they're ALSO providing the service of "not damaging the planet", which has value to many people; it's pretty basic marketing.

3. (600*1.3)/4=~200. is the math really that complicated?


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

There's a weekly barge of shipping containers filled with groceries for Avalon that returns filled with garbage. Two Harbors has a landing craft for the weekly grocery run, probably cheaper by the ton that way.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

personally, i think that the fact that sailing is making a come back in shipping, large scale or small, is great. if you think about it, sailing, which was the shipping high tech of the world for a loooong time, hasn't been relegated to simply pleasure boating for all that long. now, only a century after sail was ousted by steam, it's returning as the tech of tomorrow. that's pretty awesome.

as far as the OP's original question: i think you don't see more of it because more people haven't been willing or able to invest their money in a 'new' technology seriously, though. it seems as if sail transport may be the wave of tomorrow but, today, it's a new trend and it takes people of vision to be willing to take a chance on a budding 'new' trend. give it time and you may be surprised.


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## orionmetz (Dec 31, 2012)

Imagine how great it would be to have a system like Uber to allow people/companies to post a delivery; then people who already own ships in an area can do freelance shipping/passenger carrying.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

For information on a company doing this now in the PNW, check this out:

Salish Sea Trading Cooperative


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The wind doesn't always blow. There is a reason powered ships took over. 

I love the free market. If there are people who would pay more for a slower, less reliable form of transportation, under the guise of reducing their carbon footprint, that's great. 

However, I think there are too many people that either unfortunately don't care or more pragmatically don't believe this will have any impact on climate change whatsoever. They aren't climate change deniers, they deny that reducing human consumption will have any measurable impact on the change going forward.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"If this IS a thing how do you look into it? "

Let's cut to the chase.

You need to check with the municipalities concerned (both sides), and the counties, and the Bear Republic itself, what regulations apply to shipping or delivery companies operating strictly IN state. Unless you plan to cross state lines, and everything changes.

Then you find out IF there's dockage or a landing you can unload from.

Then you do your basic marketing surveys, to find out if anyone on that island is willing to pay you for "green" deliveries, and what they would pay for it.

Then you have to consider, how many of them actually will pony up and pay. And how you'll arrange to pickup and deliver, and make sure someone pays for the goods, possibly before you pick them up?

And whether you can get any contracts or subscriptions going, so you don't starve from week to week.

And what it will cost to keep your _commercial _boats running. Boats, plural, because you can't skip a week while you are down for maintenance, can you?

And whether those existing companies might follow the old Teamster tradition, and either break your legs or sink your boat, for competing on their turf. That's another fine nautical tradition as well.

Just an ordinary business plan.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Here is an example Sailboats Ship Freight to Manhattan for First Time in 60 Years


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I must not be hung over enough to read clearly. I'd swear that article says the sailing barge they built sailed down from Shoreham, VT to Manhattan, sticking along the Manhattan coast while southbound, which would put them head-on into commercial traffic and on the wrong side of the river under the usual "keep to the right" scheme of things.

OK, I can see building a new sailing barge in order to make it easier to drop the masts and escape Lake Champlain. But SAILING all the way down from LC through Albany and the Hudson? And then trying to SAIL all the way up again?

Even before all the obstructions were built into the upper part of that route, sailors sometimes had to just anchor and wait for days on end. I'll give them great credit for making it through the first year if they do that without an engine.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

newhaul said:


> Here is an example Sailboats Ship Freight to Manhattan for First Time in 60 Years


I assume that is the one the OP referenced. Seems they've been at it for about a year and crowd sourced some funding last spring. Wonder how they're doing?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

From their web site, seems there last AIS position was in June/July of 2013 and their comments as to "we will plan the 2014 season with a greater or lesser program of activity. We are committed to doing at least one voyage in 2014 in any event. " in the _future _tense, imply they haven't operated since then?

Maritime Sleuth needed!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Book Now!

Sea Life sails Caribbean to New York May, June 2015 (given fair winds)

Cargo hold capacity 2 tons or 3 ex girlfriends.

Cost $1,200 plus 40% sail green fee.

Load today for immediate delivery in 6 months!


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

They still do inter island freight by sail in the Marquesas
So it seems that it is doable just need to find the right market for it


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

OK, not sure if this has come up yet, but how about using your boat as a retreat space for creative or searching folk. There's lots of "retreats" out there for writers/artists/spiritual-searchers/etc. Some people travel all over the globe to inhabit these places for a short periods. Has anyone tried using their boat in this way?

I'm thinking that when we are anchored or moored for weeks or months at a time, we might be able to tap into this market. It would be targeted at the more adventurous types, and we'd probably have to be careful about how we structure the finances so as to not run afoul of local regulations.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

MikeOReilly said:


> OK, not sure if this has come up yet, but how about using your boat as a retreat space for creative or searching folk. There's lots of "retreats" out there for writers/artists/spiritual-searchers/etc. Some people travel all over the globe to inhabit these places for a short periods. Has anyone tried using their boat in this way?
> 
> I'm thinking that when we are anchored or moored for weeks or months at a time, we might be able to tap into this market. It would be targeted at the more adventurous types, and we'd probably have to be careful about how we structure the finances so as to not run afoul of local regulations.


are you talking about renting out your boat or setting up a charter business?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

captain jack said:


> are you talking about renting out your boat or setting up a charter business?


Closer to renting the boat, but I would see it more like offering a berth, and the general run of the boat. A B&B - type experience.

I have writer friends who "rent" small rooms around the globe at times. This would be more austere than that, but location matters. I could see anchoring in some semi-remote, beautiful area, and offering a rustic/rugged "experience" to some searching souls. The market would be small, but I only need a very small number to make it work.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

MikeOReilly said:


> Closer to renting the boat, but I would see it more like offering a berth, and the general run of the boat. A B&B - type experience.
> 
> I have writer friends who "rent" small rooms around the globe at times. This would be more austere than that, but location matters. I could see anchoring in some semi-remote, beautiful area, and offering a rustic/rugged "experience" to some searching souls. The market would be small, but I only need a very small number to make it work.


Same idea is already being touted on Airbnb...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

MikeOReilly said:


> Closer to renting the boat, but I would see it more like offering a berth, and the general run of the boat. A B&B - type experience.
> 
> I have writer friends who "rent" small rooms around the globe at times. This would be more austere than that, but location matters. I could see anchoring in some semi-remote, beautiful area, and offering a rustic/rugged "experience" to some searching souls. The market would be small, but I only need a very small number to make it work.


interesting idea.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

aeventyr60 said:


> Same idea is already being touted on Airbnb...


ok. maybe a stupid question but, what is Airbnb?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

captain jack said:


> ok. maybe a stupid question but, what is Airbnb?


Couch surfing for a fee. You rent out your spare room. (To dirty, smelly, ugly people who can't afford a cheap dive)

https://www.airbnb.com


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Couch surfing for a fee. You rent out your spare room. (To dirty, smelly, ugly people who can't afford a cheap dive)


EXACTLY! In fact, that was going to be my sales pitch: _To all the dirty, smelly, ugly people who can't afford a cheap dive -- have I got a deal for you _

But yes, it is along the same lines as Airbnb or other "sharing" economy ideas. Why wouldn't it work? Maybe there's a broader business. I could become the Airbnb of cheap boat surfing. Hmmmm...


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## mrhoneydew (May 1, 2008)

I think as long as people "need" to have all of the crap they simply _must have_ and _*now*_ then sail-based shipping will not return on any notable scale. It will take a collapse of the global economy (it will happen), depletion of oil reserves (happening), and an awareness that we consume way too much crap we don't need (hahahahahahahahahaha! :laugher: ). Once the clock is reset and people start to take stock of what is actually important, sail-based shipping may make a comeback. Much in the same way the Black Plague caused people to question life, which lead to the Enlightenment. Unfortunately a lot of systems have to bloat and fail for this to happen. You can talk until you're blue in the face about the impact humans are having on the planet and that we are, in fact, driving climate change... but the ones who are too stupid or have a massive financial stake in business as usual will never listen.

World's 15 Biggest Ships Create More Pollution Than All The Cars In The World - Industry Tap


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

mrhoneydew said:


> I think as long as people "need" to have all of the crap they simply _must have_ and _*now*_ then sail-based shipping will not return on any notable scale. It will take a collapse of the global economy (it will happen), depletion of oil reserves (happening), and an awareness that we consume way too much crap we don't need (hahahahahahahahahaha! :laugher: ). Once the clock is reset and people start to take stock of what is actually important, sail-based shipping may make a comeback. Much in the same way the Black Plague caused people to question life, which lead to the Enlightenment. Unfortunately a lot of systems have to bloat and fail for this to happen. You can talk until you're blue in the face about the impact humans are having on the planet and that we are, in fact, driving climate change... but the ones who are too stupid or have a massive financial stake in business as usual will never listen.
> 
> World's 15 Biggest Ships Create More Pollution Than All The Cars In The World - Industry Tap


a few points.

a) i agree about the eventual collapse of the global economy...at least as it exists, now. however...

b) the myth of us running out of oil anyday now (which has been a myth ever since the government created fake oil crisis of the 70s) has been totally buried over the last few years. besides the tight oil which is making the gas prices drop as we speak, the US has vast sources of oil that the government has been keeping the oil industry from tapping....enough to last for a looong time to come. the actual truth is that our present fearless leader said, during his first campaign, that he thought it unfair that US citizens paid so little for gas (a mere $1.69 when he first stepped into the whitehouse) and his goal was to get gas prices up to $5 a gallon....you know, just to make it fair. he has done everything he could to make that a reality and, inspite of that, industry development of new tech and discovery of new resources has made the price of gas plummet from an all time high.

anyhow, what i am getting at is: don't hold your breath waiting for oil to run out.

c) while i agree that pollution is not a good thing, human caused climate change is far from a certain thing. scientists are still debating that; with the largest percent feeling that human caused global warming is a myth.

don't want to fight about it but, here are a few points to consider:

-when mt st hellens blew up, scientists said it created more air polution than humans have since we got here. now, that certainly isn't the first volcano to go pop in the world's history but, the world is still here and relatively healthy.

-nearly all scientists agree that Co2 gas increases follow warming periods, not preceed them. of course, the argument for global warming is that it is caused by the increase of Co2 gases supposedly caused by us. of note is the fact that Co2 is a minor greenhouse gas. water vapor is the most major greenhouse gas.

-climategate and climategate2 indicate that the data used to support the idea of man made global warming was deliberately fraudulent...an act perpetrated by scientific communities dependent on public funds received to research the chicken little theory. fraudulent data equals fraudulent conclusions.

-scientists have stated that the entire solar system has heated up, not just the earth, and it's due to the sun going through a hot period...it goes through hot and cold periods, naturally. i don't think our air polution is making pluto any hotter.

-the earth has been through multiple cycles of heating and cooling ever since it began. first, you have to ask the question: since we haven't been here longer than a second on the planetary calendar, who caused the other hot times (they just seem to avoid that question)? i don't recall hearing that dinosaurs drove gas powered cars. but, the truth is, the earth, and life on this earth....including humans, has survived many hot and cold periods. the sky is not falling just yet.

-remember how, when the alarmists like al gore (whose family got it's money from old stand logging and who had no intention of reducing his own huge carbon footprint so he just gave a donation to the cause) first started saying the sky was falling, it was 'global warming'? oh, yes. we were going to eventually cook to death. the earth would turn into a big flooded soup pot, all under water. then we had some of the coldest winters on record and everyone started to laugh at 'global warming'. so, then, they started calling it 'climate change'. that way, no matter what happens, they can still say the sky is falling.

-just last winter that ship that went to antarctica got iced in and they had to be rescued. the irony was it was a ship that went to see how 'global warming' was affecting the southern ice cap. the claim was that our polar caps were all going to melt. but, they found there was more ice than ever...much to their chagrin.

human environmental impact is a huge issue. however, the earth is designed to handle air pollution, even cataclysmic air pollution like mt st hellens. if you really want to fight air pollution, get them to stop deforestation across the globe; especially south america. trees are mother nature's air filters.

there are a lot of places where we have a larger, much more immediate,( and proveable) impact that deserve more attention. places like the fact that we have polluted the earth's waters with heavy metals and hormone mimicking chemicals and, it's having a major effect on all species. loads of info on that if you look. not too many people taking up that cause.

or, perhaps, the problem of nuclear waste. the supposed promise of "clean" nuclear power producing all of our electricity has failed. most electricity is still produced from coal. in the meantime, the supposedly clean nuclear power has left us with a lot worse than smog. in the ocean and buried in the ground are loads of cans of nuclear waste. waste that will be bad mojo for longer than any one of us will be alive. waste that's in rusting, failing containers.

how about the exploding human population? humans, being much like cancer cells, constantly overpopulate. previously, we could go to another continent. alas, there are no more. yet we keep making more of us. scientists are so worried about this issue that they are researching insects as a means to feed all of us (check out TEDtalks). but, what no one is saying is, even if we can find a way to feed all of these people and find a way to get them fresh water (already a problem in certain areas), what happens to all the other life on the planet when we get that overpopulated? expanding populations are already threatening many species and needing to fill our stomachs is already beginning to deplete oceans once chock full of life.

everyone wants to jump on the global warming bandwagon but," hey! someone needs to get rid (read: shoot) of these deer. they are eating the flowers i planted around my house...which was built on their habitat. who cares if the deer starve? i want my landscaping to look pretty."

so many more human impact issues that are certainly more immediate but, none of them as eye catching as global warming. the politicians pushing global warming still fly all over the place in jets, wasting tons of fuel and causing more pollution, when they could conference by computer just like many businesses do. they still get driven around in big cavaclades of gas using cars. cavaclades made bigger by having to cart around all the extra needless staff of bloated government. i guess they aren't as worried about it as they claim.

as far as 'green' industry goes, it's just a gimmick to get more money. people have been brainwashed into believing all the 'green' hype and are willing to pay more if it's 'green'. if the government was truly worried about being 'green' why wouldn't they do something to purify the food we eat and products we use to get rid of the hormone mimicking chemicals which are getting into the water, everywhere? because that would be a real change and it might cost industry some money. so, inspite of all the scietific proof, they deny it's real.

if they care about 'green' you'd think they'd care about the huge trash problem we have. have you sailed in the chesapeake lately? at the inner harbor? they actually have barges that gather up the garbage that is floating all over the inner harbor. and, if you think it looks bad normally, you should sail there on sundays or holidays when the garbage barges aren't there. it's like a watery landfill! and the world's oceans, even far from human habitation, aren't any better. there is so much trash floating in the open oceans that, when that malaysian airline disappeared, they thought they'd found it a bunch of times only to discover it was trash....in one of the most remote areas of the ocean! yet, every month they have a new product which comes out in single serving size. stuff like small prepackaged drinks for the kids because it's too hard for mom or dad to put juice in a thermos. and wipes because it's too hard to use a cleaner from a bottle and a washable rag. and each of these things makes even more trash.

i'm not trying to be argumentative. i just think some perspective needs to be had on that issue. i love the natural environment and think man owes it to all other species to check himself a bit. but, i think it needs to be done for real...dealing with real issues...not as a means to further one group's political goals or to put money in certain industry pockets. people just love their empty gestures, you know? a fact proved by the article you linked. the US has passed legislation to keep such ships outside of US waters. as if that stops them from polluting! it's the same air. that's as silly as saying you can't dump your head in waters closer to the shore but, once you pass a magical distance, it's ok. it's the same water! or the electric car caze. gas is bad so we will use electricity we get from plugging the car into our house. where does that electricity come from? burning coal. empty gestures. but it makes everyone feel all warm and rosey as if they are really doing something to help the environment. must be the same mentality that makes people feel like they are being healthy when they order a diet coke as they eat their greasy mc burger and fries.

whew! rant over. :laugher sorry about that.

anyway, if shipping does return to sail, it will be because the cost of fuel for ships is too much. if you read the links given about companies already taking that step, you notice that is the main reason given (and repeated) with concern about 'climate change' being mentioned almost as an afterthought. a tip of the hat to the PC machine, if you will. and, even with dropping fuel costs, if such companies prove there is money to be saved (ie made) by shipping via sail...real money...you will see the trend continue. otherwise, you won't.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Anyhoo... back to the topic.

I'm going to play with my boatBnB idea over the next few years. As a writer I'm already connected to a community that uses remote retreats. I really think this could work for a very small part of that market.

Shipping by sail ... can't see it working for most goods, but what about moving people? Specifically, how about moving people already engaged in an "eco-friendly" activity. I'm thinking of travellers or adventurers who might need a lift as part of their journey: hikers, canoeist/kayakers, those sorts. We sometimes see people come here looking for a boat ride as part of their extended global journey. I bet there are congestion points for these eco-travellers. What better way to combine an eco-adventure than hopping a ride on a sailboat?


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

AirBnB already has plenty of boats on it. Most in tropical locations. 

In my internet trolling I came upon many in Florida. 

Personally I wouldn't do it - spending days on a sailboat that I would never sail would be torture. Besides, I'd rather have a long shower and regular toilet. 

I haven't done AirBnB but my adult kids have, with very good results.


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## S/V Gypsy Spirit (Sep 25, 2014)

MikeOReilly said:


> Shipping by sail ... can't see it working for most goods, but what about moving people? Specifically, how about moving people already engaged in an "eco-friendly" activity. I'm thinking of travellers or adventurers who might need a lift as part of their journey: hikers, canoeist/kayakers, those sorts. We sometimes see people come here looking for a boat ride as part of their extended global journey. I bet there are congestion points for these eco-travellers. What better way to combine an eco-adventure than hopping a ride on a sailboat?


Hey, I'd like to drop in here for a second, because I've too thought about ways to feed the kitty... my first concern regarding the idea of a "boat BnB" would be, that boat owners accepting passengers or cargo and getting paid for it by the passengers would be technically working illegally outside their homecountry waters. How would you deal with that? Second, there are already a lot of established websites doing exactly the same thing such as airBnb as mentioned for more "stationary" accomodations, but there is findacrew.net and the like. A lot of competition in a seemingly limited market..?

My idea was to set up sort of a filming service for boatowners and cruisers. Who wouldn't like some aerial footage of their own boat under full sails cutting thru turkquoise waters (shot with a GoPro drone circling the customers boat), a walkthrough with nicely arranged cabin and so on? A good souvenir or a good thing to have for potential resale... the equipment needed does not take up much space, so you could go for a cruisers hub such as USVIs or Georgetown and ask around, whereever you are. You'd need a camera drone, a GoPro, and a laptop or PC for editing. Some DVDs or USB Sticks to give away. So, not much...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

S/V Gypsy Spirit said:


> Hey, I'd like to drop in here for a second, because I've too thought about ways to feed the kitty... my first concern regarding the idea of a "boat BnB" would be, that boat owners accepting passengers or cargo and getting paid for it by the passengers would be technically working illegally outside their homecountry waters. How would you deal with that? Second, there are already a lot of established websites doing exactly the same thing such as airBnb as mentioned for more "stationary" accomodations, but there is findacrew.net and the like. A lot of competition in a seemingly limited market..?
> 
> My idea was to set up sort of a filming service for boatowners and cruisers. Who wouldn't like some aerial footage of their own boat under full sails cutting thru turkquoise waters (shot with a GoPro drone circling the customers boat), a walkthrough with nicely arranged cabin and so on? A good souvenir or a good thing to have for potential resale... the equipment needed does not take up much space, so you could go for a cruisers hub such as USVIs or Georgetown and ask around, whereever you are. You'd need a camera drone, a GoPro, and a laptop or PC for editing. Some DVDs or USB Sticks to give away. So, not much...


there is a guy on the local craigslist who is basically offering charters on his boat. he is offering to take people out with varying amounts of customer participation...depending on what you are looking for in a charter. the way he gets around all the taxes and red tape is that he doesn't call it a charter. in fact, he expressly lists it as not being a charter. he is just taking people out and, together, they decide on an amount for a 'donation' the people can give to fund his boat. his 'donation' amount isn't cheap, either. i don't know if he has many takers but, if he does, he is making decent money on it.


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## S/V Gypsy Spirit (Sep 25, 2014)

captain jack said:


> there is a guy on the local craigslist who is basically offering charters on his boat.


I assume the idea was more establishing a service or a website that connects people in the usual i-have-something-to-offer (boat/ride/accommodation) vs. i-am-in-need-of-something (boat/ride/accommodation) scheme and collect a service charge if both parties agree. So the operator of this service would make money out of just connecting people with matching interests. Just like Uber or AirBnB. You could easily apply some T&Cs that you are not responsible for any tax, customs or immigration law/working permit implications. But wouldn't you put your customers in danger of being arrested/fined and so on? Wouldn't you be liable for such implications by _encouraging_ illegal work, no matter what your T&Cs or your way of billing say? Well, you could call the payment made a donation. But, if it is brownish and hard at the bottom and greenish and bushy at the top, it might be a tree. So if you take on passengers and get paid, it might be considered working by the corresponding authorities...


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Commercial cargo sail *can* work.

I read about Brad Ives using sail to deliver tropical boatbuilding woods to Gannon & Benjamin in Ruhlman's "Wooden Boats".

 News Clipping

He's now sailing passengers & cargo between Hawai'i and the Cook Islands.

S/V Kwai


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

S/V Gypsy Spirit said:


> ...
> My idea was to set up sort of a filming service for boatowners and cruisers. Who wouldn't like some aerial footage of their own boat under full sails cutting thru turkquoise waters (shot with a GoPro drone circling the customers boat),


There is at least one guy with a small helicopter who does this. He takes the photos then sends them to you asking if you'd want to buy them. Expensive.



S/V Gypsy Spirit said:


> ...
> a walkthrough with nicely arranged cabin and so on? A good souvenir or a good thing to have for potential resale...


You're competing with everyone who owns a GoPro or camera phone and who can do it themselves. I would think that ship has sailed. Also, if you have a broker, chances are the broker will take photos or video of your boat when it goes on the market.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

DRFerron said:


> There is at least one guy with a small helicopter who does this. He takes the photos then sends them to you asking if you'd want to buy them. Expensive.
> 
> You're competing with everyone who owns a GoPro or camera phone and who can do it themselves. I would think that ship has sailed. Also, if you have a broker, chances are the broker will take photos or video of your boat when it goes on the market.


would work with a kite and a gopro


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

white74 said:


> would work with a kite and a gopro


i hardly think you could fly a kite inside your boat!:laugher


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## mrhoneydew (May 1, 2008)

captain jack said:


> a few points.
> 
> a) i agree about the eventual collapse of the global economy...at least as it exists, now. however...
> 
> ...


Well folks... sorry to quote 'War and Peace' here :laugher and normally I am fine to leave well enough alone... but just a few points. I'll try to keep it brief.

We agree that over-population is a major concern, and even that some 'green' products or ideas are gimmicks to make a buck (though that is an easy label to apply to those that are not, too)... but I am really not certain where you are getting that there is any legitimate scientific question about human accelerated climate change? Over 95% of scientific papers over the past 20 years on the subject all point to agreement that human activity is causing the climate to heat up. To get that kind of consensus you would have to look at, I don't know, the existence of gravity? Planetary alignment around the sun? But you get people in places like Florida who have an unseasonably cold winter and start screaming that 'global warming' is a liberal conspiracy! (even though the reality is that the Arctic is seeing increases in temperatures which pushes cold air south).Climate shifts between warm and cold cycles have taken millennia throughout the planet's history. The destabilized weather patterns we are seeing develop can be directly traced back to the Industrial Revolution when factories started burning coal and forests started to be cut down faster than they could re-grow. It's in the ice samples taken from ice that has formed over thousands of years. How we can be currently dumping millions of metric tons of carbon into the atmosphere 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, year in and year out by burning fossil fuels AND cut down over 50% of the world's forests isn't an obvious impact on climate&#8230; when you even point to deforestation in your quoted example&#8230; is mystifying. The whole point is that humans are removing the planet's ability to filter out carbon while also dumping more into it. THAT has not happened in the history of the planet. Multiple volcanoes are erupting somewhere in the world all of the time. They have always been a part of atmospheric pollution, even if at some times more than others. So Mount St. Helens really isn't a great example. It's just one that people can cite because it was in the papers. Prior to modern human habitation the planet could indeed eventually filter the atmosphere. Now that system is starting to fail.

And I never said oil reserves would be depleted any time soon. What IS happening is the relatively easy resources to get to are being depleted so oil companies are searching farther afield into deeper oceans and wilder spaces to find it. The result is always degradation of those areas. Look at Deepwater Horizon in the Gulf. Companies are starting to explore off the East Coast of Florida. Those are just the examples that come to mind. Also, just wait until economies like China and India with 1 Billion+ people each really start to develop and want things like what we have in the West! I wouldn't get too used to gas prices as they are now. And man will we wish any of those places had anything resembling an EPA!

Last thing... it's pretty ridiculous to think that we as Americans are entitled to low gas prices. The rest of the world pays for it. We get ours through paid off politicians in the back pocket of oil companies who, in turn, get subsidies and by propping up dictators and regimes in places that leave their citizens living in poverty despite rich oil reserves (Nigeria, for example). I don't like high gas prices any more than the next person, but at least I am aware of where it comes from. By the way, the President doesn't have an effect one way or the other on gas prices (whether your team is in the Whitehouse or not). No matter how much you might want to point the finger.

So really a lot of screen real estate could have probably been saved in the above quote by simply saying a) liberal conspiracy! and, b) because... OBAMA! 

At any rate, my apologies to the OP for the thread hijack. Or rather, for the _rebuttal_ to the thread hijack.


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

making money with your boat ??? One word.....smuggling


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

another word...cigarettes


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

2 more words ......illegal aliens


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Maybe something out of "Breaking Bad"?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mrhoneydew said:


> ...... but I am really not certain where you are getting that there is any legitimate scientific question about human accelerated climate change? Over 95% of scientific papers over the past 20 years on the subject all point to agreement that human activity is causing the climate to heat up.......


Most of the consensus is around exactly what you reference. It's clear in ice core samples that we've introduced pollutants into the atmosphere. I would love to see a well articulated scientific connection that it has been a major contributor to climate change. At best, I've seen circumstantial conclusions like yours. Maybe it has, it's easy to assume so. However politically incorrect Jack was about this, I believe he is right. There is no debate that the climate is changing. I do not think 95% of scientists claim they can prove humans substantially accelerated it, only that it's acceleration is a fact and our fingerprints are all over the planet.


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## S/V Gypsy Spirit (Sep 25, 2014)

DRFerron said:


> There is at least one guy with a small helicopter who does this. He takes the photos then sends them to you asking if you'd want to buy them. Expensive.


At least one guy where? Bahamas? Turkey? Italy? Canaries? St. Maarten? SoCal? Great Lakes? Australia?  one guy seems like a hell of competition..



> You're competing with everyone who owns a GoPro or camera phone and who can do it themselves. I would think that ship has sailed. Also, if you have a broker, chances are the broker will take photos or video of your boat when it goes on the market.


You might be right. But as far as I have experienced it, most (90%+) of the folks I met cruising didn't have a clue what is possible today with the right tools and skills. I think there is a difference between someone having an unstabilized GoPro and pointing it somewhere, in hand, on a stick, or up in the mast, while underway, creating the same footage we have seen a 1000 times, or a broker who most of the time just pulls the trigger 200 times and uploads the "best" shots to yachtworld -- and someone who does this for a living, has a drone and is a professional editor for example. Everyone can use a stove or an oven (and most do have them and use them) but it takes a chef to create something special. Thats why you go to restaurants and leave a lot of money on the table.


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## S/V Gypsy Spirit (Sep 25, 2014)

Here is an example for a nice drone clip, although it is not edited well, or colorcorrected, or anything I was talking of above.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

The Brits and the Aussies had something figured out a long time ago:

The Floating Brothel


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

S/V Gypsy Spirit said:


> At least one guy where? Bahamas? Turkey? Italy? Canaries? St. Maarten? SoCal? Great Lakes? Australia?  one guy seems like a hell of competition..
> 
> ...


Sorry. I shouldn't post between wine and bed. Chesapeake bay. I remember saying the location in my head.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

S/V Gypsy Spirit said:


> ...Everyone can use a stove or an oven (and most do have them and use them) but it takes a chef to create something special. Thats why you go to restaurants and leave a lot of money on the table.


Unless you know how to cook very well, which, a lot of people do. I get your point. In my opinion I don't agree that there is a huge market out there for it. The majority of sailors I know are frugal, whether they have the money or not. In all of the budgeting discussions I've heard and read, not once did anyone include professional boat pictures.


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## S/V Gypsy Spirit (Sep 25, 2014)

DRFerron said:


> Unless you know how to cook very well, which, a lot of people do. I get your point. In my opinion I don't agree that there is a huge market out there for it. The majority of sailors I know are frugal, whether they have the money or not. In all of the budgeting discussions I've heard and read, not once did anyone include professional boat pictures.


I don't think there is a huge market either. It was just something that came to my mind while being anchored at crowded spots. I was contemplating that _I_ would be happy to have such footage of my boat... if it wouldn't be too costly and/or complex to get. Like, buying a GoPro, buying the necessary aux gear, a drone/quadcopter, sophisticated software, build up experience... and end up with all that stuff and expenses for using it how often exactly?
But you are right. How much would you have to charge to even get to the point where you can break even just the expenses for all that gear?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

mrhoneydew said:


> Well folks... sorry to quote 'War and Peace' here :laugher and normally I am fine to leave well enough alone... but just a few points. I'll try to keep it brief.
> 
> We agree that over-population is a major concern, and even that some 'green' products or ideas are gimmicks to make a buck (though that is an easy label to apply to those that are not, too)... but I am really not certain where you are getting that there is any legitimate scientific question about human accelerated climate change? Over 95% of scientific papers over the past 20 years on the subject all point to agreement that human activity is causing the climate to heat up. To get that kind of consensus you would have to look at, I don't know, the existence of gravity? Planetary alignment around the sun? But you get people in places like Florida who have an unseasonably cold winter and start screaming that 'global warming' is a liberal conspiracy! (even though the reality is that the Arctic is seeing increases in temperatures which pushes cold air south).Climate shifts between warm and cold cycles have taken millennia throughout the planet's history. The destabilized weather patterns we are seeing develop can be directly traced back to the Industrial Revolution when factories started burning coal and *forests started to be cut down faster than they could re-grow*. It's in the ice samples taken from ice that has formed over thousands of years. How we can be currently dumping millions of metric tons of carbon into the atmosphere 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, year in and year out by burning fossil fuels AND cut down over 50% of the world's forests isn't an obvious impact on climate&#8230; when you even point to deforestation in your quoted example&#8230; is mystifying. The whole point is that humans are removing the planet's ability to filter out carbon while also dumping more into it. THAT has not happened in the history of the planet. Multiple volcanoes are erupting somewhere in the world all of the time. They have always been a part of atmospheric pollution, even if at some times more than others. So Mount St. Helens really isn't a great example.


it was an example given simply because of the statement scientists made comparing it to human caused pollution.



> It's just one that people can cite because it was in the papers. Prior to modern human habitation the planet could indeed eventually filter the atmosphere. Now that system is starting to fail.


so, we do agree. to an extent.( i'd like to see some actual proof about 95% of scientists supporting *human caused* global warming. the amount of scientific papers published does't really tell you anything beyond which side has a lot of funding.) however, the reality or myth of human caused global warming is not a subject for this site. it would be great for a private discussion, though.)

i think, where we disagree is the cause and solution of air pollution. you blame fossil fuel use and think that reduction of fossil fuel use is the key. i blame deforrestation; the destruction of the earth's natural ability to produce clean air. i say the answer is to stop deforrestation and do what we can to strengthen the system we weakened.

the question a person should ask themselves is, if we stop all fossil fuel use yet keep up our present rate of deforrestation, what will become of the atmosphere? on the other hand, if we keep using fossil fuels and we give the earth it's filtration system back, what will happen?

of course, human overpopulation is responsible for the severity of the problem. you simply can't fit 5 pounds of stuff in a 1 pound bag.

the solution to polution is dilution. anything in high enough concentrations is fatal, no matter how good or harmless it is. on the other hand, deadly toxins can be rendered harmless when diluted so that the actual toxin amount is small.

just as it is inaccurae to say that evolution takes millions of years, it is inaccurate to say that climate change takes a long time. historically, that really depends on the severity of the climate change.



> And I never said oil reserves would be depleted any time soon. What IS happening is the relatively easy resources to get to are being depleted so oil companies are searching farther afield into deeper oceans and wilder spaces to find it. The result is always degradation of those areas. Look at Deepwater Horizon in the Gulf. Companies are starting to explore off the East Coast of Florida. Those are just the examples that come to mind. Also, just wait until economies like China and India with 1 Billion+ people each really start to develop and want things like what we have in the West! I wouldn't get too used to gas prices as they are now. And man will we wish any of those places had anything resembling an EPA!
> 
> Last thing... it's pretty ridiculous to think that we as Americans are entitled to low gas prices. The rest of the world pays for it. We get ours through paid off politicians in the back pocket of oil companies who, in turn, get subsidies and by propping up dictators and regimes in places that leave their citizens living in poverty despite rich oil reserves (Nigeria, for example). I don't like high gas prices any more than the next person, but at least I am aware of where it comes from. By the way, the President doesn't have an effect one way or the other on gas prices (whether your team is in the Whitehouse or not). No matter how much you might want to point the finger.
> 
> ...


actually, it's no sillier saying we deserve low prices than to say we deserve to pay high prices because others do. we have tons of oil. notice that gas prices in opec countries are not high? that's why ours shuld not be as high as countries that have no oil. as far as presidents having nothing to do with oil prices....he has his pen and his phone, remember? it doesn't matter what anyone else says. he will get his way. but, in a more generic answer, government can easily affect oil prices, or any commodity prices, by passing regulation that makes production of that commodity more difficult or more expensive.

i'd like to point out one other thing: you and i are not on different sides of the humanity's responsibility for it's environmental impact issue. we just have different opinions of what is important and proveable and what to do about it.

but, i agree, i apologize for the thread hijack. it's a good thread and shouldn't get derailed.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

DRFerron said:


> Unless you know how to cook very well, which, a lot of people do. I get your point. In my opinion I don't agree that there is a huge market out there for it. The majority of sailors I know are frugal, whether they have the money or not. In all of the budgeting discussions I've heard and read, not once did anyone include professional boat pictures.


he does have a point, though. everyone can use a camera or cell phone to take amazingly good photos, these days. however, people still buy professional portraits and hire photographers for events. is there a market with sailors? i don't know. i person would have to try it out and see.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Mike-
We make great money by running a diet clinic for the Coast Guard Diet.

You take folks out, set 'em adrift in a rubber raft with plenty of water and a crate of prunes. Pick 'em up ten days later, and they've ALL had a successful weight loss!

The rafts clean up pretty nicely, too. (VBG)

Never realized, we could have installed GoPros and charged extra for the video!


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> Mike-
> We make great money by running a diet clinic for the Coast Guard Diet.
> 
> You take folks out, set 'em adrift in a rubber raft with plenty of water and a crate of prunes. Pick 'em up ten days later, and they've ALL had a successful weight loss!


I like it .

Actually, you may be one to something. There's a whole sub-culture of masochists out there. Perhaps they would be the market for an over-priced "retreat" on a tiny, austere boat. There's also a whole bunch of religious/spiritual types who use deprivation as a means to get closer to the _Big It_. And they pay for it .

I really think there's a market out there.


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## mrhoneydew (May 1, 2008)

> i'd like to point out one other thing: you and i are not on different sides of the humanity's responsibility for it's environmental impact issue. we just have different opinions of what is important and proveable and what to do about it.
> 
> but, i agree, i apologize for the thread hijack. it's a good thread and shouldn't get derailed.


One last response and I will conclude my off-topic comments on this. I think we are, indeed, on the same page on the bigger question of humanity's impact on the environment. There is no way the world is going to suddenly stop using fossil fuels and that isn't even the goal, really. But it seems, if for no other reasons, it would make sense to curtail their use to some degree 1) to prevent further rapid degradation caused by their extraction, 2) to allow time for re-forestation, and 3) to allow those forests to do their job. You can't just expect to replant millions of acres of trees and presto! the atmosphere is fixed. It is becoming cheaper to go with solar/wind technology than coal to generate electricity and that will definitely be the case in about the next 5 years. If we can come up with better, cleaner, cheaper means why not use them? Just because fossil fuels exist doesn't mean it is compulsory to use them. Even IF burning fossil fuels is not causing the planet to heat up, the consequences of poor air quality in metropolitan areas to health should be enough reason to cut back.

Anyway... I doubt we are going to solve the problem going off-topic on a thread on a sailing forum.


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## orionmetz (Dec 31, 2012)

captain jack said:


> he does have a point, though. everyone can use a camera or cell phone to take amazingly good photos, these days. however, people still buy professional portraits and hire photographers for events. is there a market with sailors? i don't know. i person would have to try it out and see.


The notion that "photography doesn't have an industry because everyone has a cameraphone" makes at much sense as saying that there's no industry for restaurants since everyone has a kitchen. Buying a camera and expecting to make money without skill is stupid, just like any other industry.

I think the only real way to make a living would be to focus on a market that AREN'T sailors; sailors are a small number of primarily non-consumers, that's a steep short hill that probably isn't worth climbing.

Now, media targeting people who DREAM of sailing, more of a market; cargo for islands, ect. Hell, even using the time during passages to write (wouldn't have to be water related books/blogs either).


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## orionmetz (Dec 31, 2012)

mrhoneydew said:


> One last response and I will conclude my off-topic comments on this. I think we are, indeed, on the same page on the bigger question of humanity's impact on the environment. There is no way the world is going to suddenly stop using fossil fuels and that isn't even the goal, really. But it seems, if for no other reasons, it would make sense to curtail their use to some degree 1) to prevent further rapid degradation caused by their extraction, 2) to allow time for re-forestation, and 3) to allow those forests to do their job. You can't just expect to replant millions of acres of trees and presto! the atmosphere is fixed. It is becoming cheaper to go with solar/wind technology than coal to generate electricity and that will definitely be the case in about the next 5 years. If we can come up with better, cleaner, cheaper means why not use them? Just because fossil fuels exist doesn't mean it is compulsory to use them. Even IF burning fossil fuels is not causing the planet to heat up, the consequences of poor air quality in metropolitan areas to health should be enough reason to cut back.
> 
> Anyway... I doubt we are going to solve the problem going off-topic on a thread on a sailing forum.


Funny misconception, there are more trees (a larger % of planetary coverage, technically) on earth today than 100 years ago, "rain forests" are decreasing, but that's not the same conversation. Truth is we don't use trees nearly as much as we used to, houses are mostly plaster and drywall, apartments are concrete, cars, ships, and planes are aluminum and steel instead of the wood of the 1800s.

The ISSUE, is that trees aren't the issue, they only produce ~10% of the worlds total oxygen (and in fact many species are an oxygen NEGATIVE), ~70% is produced by surface algae, and the international status of the oceans makes maintenance and recovery difficult; no country OWNS it, so nobody wants to pay for it. The real solution is to find a profitable use for the plastic floating in the ocean, so countries will compete for collection of the new "resource". Or engineer an algae species that eats it and poops out harmless byproducts (like ****take and coffee).


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

captain jack said:


> there is a guy on the local craigslist who is basically offering charters on his boat. he is offering to take people out with varying amounts of customer participation...depending on what you are looking for in a charter. the way he gets around all the taxes and red tape is that he doesn't call it a charter. in fact, he expressly lists it as not being a charter. he is just taking people out and, together, they decide on an amount for a 'donation' the people can give to fund his boat. his 'donation' amount isn't cheap, either. i don't know if he has many takers but, if he does, he is making decent money on it.


OTOH, I imagine that'll last exactly as long as it takes for someone to get mad at him and phone calls start going out. I know what the FAA's definition of "commercial operation" is, and I can't imagine that the various coasties and departments of commerce are going to be a lot more liberal. It's the RECEIVING of anything of monetary value that makes something a commercial transaction in the FAA's eyes, regardless of whether it's called "payment" or "donation", whether it's set, negotiated, or spontaneously given, and whether it's fungible or bartered trade, for ANY trip that the pilot wouldn't otherwise make. If the pilot would otherwise be going alone, then expenses for stuff like fuel and parking charge can be shared per person, but no more than that. If Joe Pilot goes every other week to Albany, then someone else going to Albany can share gas costs. But not twice in the same week, nor to Rochester, etc.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

orionmetz said:


> Funny misconception, there are more trees (a larger % of planetary coverage, technically) on earth today than 100 years ago, "rain forests" are decreasing, but that's not the same conversation. Truth is we don't use trees nearly as much as we used to, houses are mostly plaster and drywall, apartments are concrete, cars, ships, and planes are aluminum and steel instead of the wood of the 1800s.
> 
> The ISSUE, is that trees aren't the issue, they only produce ~10% of the worlds total oxygen (and in fact many species are an oxygen NEGATIVE), ~70% is produced by surface algae, and the international status of the oceans makes maintenance and recovery difficult; no country OWNS it, so nobody wants to pay for it. The real solution is to find a profitable use for the plastic floating in the ocean, so countries will compete for collection of the new "resource". *Or engineer an algae species that eats it and poops out harmless byproducts (like ****take and coffee)*.


Good ol' Mom Nature beat you to it. Plastic-Eating Fungus May Solve World's Waste Problems.

Another --


I propose the common name "Sailor's Choice" for the bacteria referenced *here*, because --
"The bacteria found can transform phthalates into carbon dioxide, water and alcohol."


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## orionmetz (Dec 31, 2012)

manatee said:


> Good ol' Mom Nature beat you to it.
> 
> Another --
> 
> ...


Isn't that just like mom to leave something like that in a back closet?


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## mrhoneydew (May 1, 2008)

orionmetz said:


> Funny misconception, there are more trees (a larger % of planetary coverage, technically) on earth today than 100 years ago, "rain forests" are decreasing, but that's not the same conversation. Truth is we don't use trees nearly as much as we used to, houses are mostly plaster and drywall, apartments are concrete, cars, ships, and planes are aluminum and steel instead of the wood of the 1800s.
> 
> The ISSUE, is that trees aren't the issue, they only produce ~10% of the worlds total oxygen (and in fact many species are an oxygen NEGATIVE), ~70% is produced by surface algae, and the international status of the oceans makes maintenance and recovery difficult; no country OWNS it, so nobody wants to pay for it. The real solution is to find a profitable use for the plastic floating in the ocean, so countries will compete for collection of the new "resource". Or engineer an algae species that eats it and poops out harmless byproducts (like ****take and coffee).


Good point about ocean algae and the ocean's general role in filtering the atmosphere. I am interested to see what comes of The Ocean Clean-up. The Ocean Cleanup, developing technologies to extract, prevent and intercept plastic pollution The crazy kid (Boyan Slat) may be onto something and he's doing more than anyone else on the subject. Relating to the thread... I wonder if there is any possible way to contribute to ocean clean-up and make money at it? I guess there is writing articles... but that will not generate a great amount. Take charters out to look at patches of floating garbage? What fun! But these are basically the same ideas that most people seem to come up with all the time to make money while cruising. Maybe invent a system that converts plastic to diesel? Not a great idea... but better than having it all floating in the ocean. (And, actually, it's being done.) But something on the water that could collect and process it? Not economically feasible, I imagine.

I don't know that I buy that we don't use as many trees as we used to. An average house may take less wood vs. one from the 1800's, but there are also at least 7+ billion more people on the planet. I'll have to look into it further.


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## orionmetz (Dec 31, 2012)

mrhoneydew said:


> Good point about ocean algae and the ocean's general role in filtering the atmosphere. I am interested to see what comes of The Ocean Clean-up. The crazy kid (Boyan Slat) may be onto something and he's doing more than anyone else on the subject. Relating to the thread... I wonder if there is any possible way to contribute to ocean clean-up and make money at it? I guess there is writing articles... but that will not generate a great amount. Take charters out to look at patches of floating garbage? What fun! But these are basically the same ideas that most people seem to come up with all the time to make money while cruising. Maybe invent a system that converts plastic to diesel? Not a great idea... but better than having it all floating in the ocean. (And, actually, it's being done.) But something on the water that could collect and process it? Not economically feasible, I imagine.
> 
> I don't know that I buy that we don't use as many trees as we used to. An average house may take less wood vs. one from the 1800's, but there are also at least 7+ billion more people on the planet. I'll have to look into it further.


Cars vs carriages, metal vs wooden boats, typing vs paper. Add onto that the fact that the wood we DO use is largely through sustainable wood farms which lowers the space burden. I will admit the higher % stat is true of north america and the INDUSTRIALIZED world, I'm not entirely sure how much the damage in brazil/china/india effects that. I do know the America has more trees now than it did when the natives were in charge back in the early Age of Exploration.

And I saw that kid's TED talk on stationary surface filters, insane to come from someone that young (although most geniuses do their best work before 20 and then go bonkers )


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

orionmetz said:


> I do know the America has more trees now than it did when the natives were in charge back in the early Age of Exploration.


I sure wish there were the stands of old-growth forests that we used to have out here in Oregon. There are a few small patches left, almost like museum pieces, and they are incredible. No, the old forests are gone, the salmon are dwindling, something like 40 percent of the mammal population on the planet is endangered, etc etc etc...didn't take us long to sh#t on the whole thing....

...on the other hand, the Cabernet has never been better. I better open another bottle.


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

orionmetz said:


> 1. The company is a traditional (meaning engine based) shipping company named catalina freight, I didn't mention the name because the idea that it would matter is nonsensical. I did the work of finding out how much they charge for shipping and then posted it HERE n the "info" of the post so you wouldn't have to go digging; a post that requires you to google would be a "non-info post".
> 
> 2. The price increase hardly counts as "ambiguous", in California many people will pay a premium to have a lower carbon footprint, and a sailboat uses considerably less. "Green" alternatives to traditional industries (shipping, farming, energy) routinely charge 20-40% more to provide similar services or goods on the grounds that they're ALSO providing the service of "not damaging the planet", which has value to many people; it's pretty basic marketing.
> 
> 3. (600*1.3)/4=~200. is the math really that complicated?


polled everyone I encountered yesterday & not one person said they'd pay 20-40 % more for green shipping . However , you do live in Cali.....just sayin


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

orionmetz said:


> Now, media targeting people who DREAM of sailing, more of a market; cargo for islands, ect. Hell, even using the time during passages to write (wouldn't have to be water related books/blogs either).


this is a very good point and there are already people capitalizing on that. there are a number of cruising vlogs on youtube where people are basically funding their cruises by keeping a youtube journal of what they do.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

captain jack said:


> this is a very good point and there are already people capitalizing on that. there are a number of cruising vlogs on youtube where people are basically funding their cruises by keeping a youtube journal of what they do.


I'd love to see actual revenue numbers on these. I've considered doing this, but I suspect (fear) there's really not much money in it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Tenoch said:


> I sure wish there were the stands of old-growth forests that we used to have out here in Oregon. There are a few small patches left, almost like museum pieces, and they are incredible. No, the old forests are gone, the salmon are dwindling, something like 40 percent of the mammal population on the planet is endangered, etc etc etc...didn't take us long to sh#t on the whole thing....
> 
> ...on the other hand, the Cabernet has never been better. I better open another bottle.


lol.

yeah. i always think that is funny about the tree statistics they give. when europeans first came here, most of the eastern seaboard was one huge forrest. look at it now. in my area, tons of woods have been cleared for housing developments. that's in my lifetime. in the past, they cleared for farmland. then, people on the west coast, like you, say the same about those areas. yet, the statistics They give say there are more trees here than ever. and i don't see how real world observations can be matched to those numbers.

huge swaths of forrest have been (and are being) cleared for farms, for cities, for golf courses, for suburben sprawl, for roads, and malls and....all that area is still cleared. the plains of the midwest haven't suddenly been taken over by forrest. so, what i don't understand...and can not fathom...is how there can possibly be more forrests now than before we started cutting the forrests down. something just doesn't seen logical about that claim.

then again, they don't say there is more forrest. they say there are more trees. there is a difference. if i cut down a forrest of a thousand oaks, pines, and maples then i plant 2000 decorative fruit trees, like you see planted along the street in housing communities, i could say there were more trees than when i started but, it would really be comparing apples to oranges in an effort to make things look better than what they are.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

MikeOReilly said:


> I'd love to see actual revenue numbers on these. I've considered doing this, but I suspect (fear) there's really not much money in it.


that's a good question. one that i can't answer. but a lot of people make a living that way. the guy who does natesvlogs does it as his sole employment (not a sailing vlog but one i know about). i do know that. so, there must be money there. i think it all has to do with the number of subscribers. you get a lot of subscribers and then they give you advertisers. the guy who does the pirate lifestyle vlog has a video that talks about the ways you make money doing that. i will see if i can find it and link it here.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

captain jack said:


> lol.
> 
> yeah. i always think that is funny about the tree statistics they give. when europeans first came here, most of the eastern seaboard was one huge forrest. look at it now. in my area, tons of woods have been cleared for housing developments. that's in my lifetime. in the past, they cleared for farmland. then, people on the west coast, like you, say the same about those areas. yet, the statistics They give say there are more trees here than ever. and i don't see how real world observations can be matched to those numbers.
> 
> ...


"Figures lie and liars figure." The 'more trees now' hype is just more liars figuring.

It's not just the number of trees that counts, it's the total leaf surface area, plus the entire sylvan ecosystem. *If & when* your 2000 fruit trees have enough leaves to match the filtering/oxygen production of the climax forest you chipified for mulch, you may claim to have mitigated the lost air production. You will *never* be able to claim to have *replaced* the destroyed forest ecosystem.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

captain jack said:


> ...there are a number of cruising vlogs on youtube where people are basically funding their cruises by keeping a youtube journal of what they do.


Last I asked how this worked, there was no significant money in it. Seriously popular was under $100, or something like that.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Last I asked how this worked, there was no significant money in it. Seriously popular was under $100, or something like that.


i haven't seen any amount quotes, yet.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

captain jack said:


> i haven't seen any amount quotes, yet.


A million views can get you something like a grand, iirc. One of our members here, DrakeParagon, has a popular youtube channel, where he documents his life aboard. His vids seems to get around 10k to 20k in views. No way he even pays for the video and editing equipment needed to make them.


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## S/V Gypsy Spirit (Sep 25, 2014)

Ok, so none of the aforementioned ideas seem to work very well.

- BoatBnB as a web based service to connect people (passengers with boat owners // small market, legal issues, lots of competition)
- (aerial) videography service for fellow sailors (souvenir or resale perk // small market, expensive equipment)
- Youtube Channels / Sailing Vlogs (lots of work, needs vast numbers of followers)
- writing for sailing/boating mags (small market, laughable revenue)

so how about a different approach:

- partner up with a land based friend with some woodworking skills. On your journeys, collect flotsam, driftwood, old pallets or boat wood with some fading colors - everything that seems somehow appealing to your eye. When back, construct handcrafted furniture, like cabinets, desks, coffee tables... lamp sockets, chairs... out of it. Varnish it. Sell it as ecologically sustainable (cleaning the ocean and beaches), green, high quality handcrafted designer furniture with an outrageous price tag. Create an ebay shop plus sell it on your own, fancy website. Let the land based partner handle the shipping. You can of course rummage through the local boat yard dumpsters too to avoid sailing around with tons of flotsam. Voilá. 

I was looking at some of this kind of furniture on ebay recently and they were selling it for like 800 euros for a small coffee table. And they were selling ~ 20 items a week.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

S/V Gypsy Spirit said:


> Ok, so none of the aforementioned ideas seem to work very well.
> 
> - BoatBnB as a web based service to connect people (passengers with boat owners // small market, legal issues, lots of competition)
> - (aerial) videography service for fellow sailors (souvenir or resale perk // small market, expensive equipment)
> ...


that's a good idea and very marketable in the right areas. i'm not so sure that the above ideas that 'don't work so well' can truly be said not to work so well.

there must be something to the whole youtube video thing because a whole lot of people do that for money. i think i'd do some serious research before i ruled that a failure.

also, i don't know that anyone has tried the professional videography idea, so that's not a forgone conclusion, either.

one thing that needs taken into account is that the success or failure of any business venture depends, in large part, on the person attempting it; on location, timing, marketing, choosing the appropriate market, quality of product and work ethic, as well as personal charisma.

even an idea that didn't work for one person isn't necessarily a bad one. it might work perfectly for another person.

your idea is a good example. if a person with talent and an ability to sell himself took his product to a craft or antique type area... say mullica hill, nj or new market, md or (old town) ellicott city, md....he could do quite well. if the furniture was done poorly, the person selling it uncharismatic, or a poor location/market segment chosen, it could fail royally.


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## S/V Gypsy Spirit (Sep 25, 2014)

captain jack said:


> there must be something to the whole youtube video thing because a whole lot of people do that for money. i think i'd do some serious research before i ruled that a failure.


We had this in the local (german) news recently, some kids, literally kids, making a lot of money with youtube by becoming youtube celebrities and talking about beauty, girls, make up or doing some sketches, pranks and all that what normal teenagers do, but on youtube. But they have a million+ klicks and sponsors and tv appearances. I don't think that the 103rd sailing vlog will net you more than a couple of hundred bucks a year, unless you really invest some serious time, skills and creativity into creating something like an outstandingly smart, funny, positive, adventurous scripted reality tv show (but on youtube). And that's the moment when your friends and partners become full time actors and you are becoming a full time director/screenwriter/producer/editor, and you are exchanging the cruising life for a working life in a cruising environment. If that is your dream, go for it. People will love it.



> also, i don't know that anyone has tried the professional videography idea, so that's not a forgone conclusion, either.


If you really want to establish a constant cash flow with an idea like that, not just an occasional buck here and there ripped out of frugal cruisers you met at the local watering hole, you will have to build up a network with drone and camera operators in the worlds popular cruising grounds, negotiate percentages for providing gigs with them, advertise, put up a website, collect the footage, and employ some professional editors to manage the incoming workload. So, again, you might end up running a regular business 24/7 with all the advantages and disadvantages.



> one thing that needs taken into account is that the success or failure of any business venture depends, in large part, on the person attempting it; on location, timing, marketing, choosing the appropriate market, quality of product and work ethic, as well as personal charisma.


 True. I absolutely second that.



> your idea is a good example. if a person with talent and an ability to sell himself took his product to a craft or antique type area... say mullica hill, nj or new market, md or (old town) ellicott city, md....he could do quite well. if the furniture was done poorly, the person selling it uncharismatic, or a poor location/market segment chosen, it could fail royally.


But we have the internet for that  
I am from Germany so I don't really know about the places you mentioned. 
Just advertise in the right segment and right way to the right people. They will find you if your product is high demand (like unique designer eco furniture is, as far as I know)

Well, there IS a dream of coming up with an idea that creates a constant cash flow with low or no maintenance that is manageable from far-away-istan. I personally know a guy that charted a small place in Africa in the age of 24 that was uncharted before, sold it to big charting agencies and is now living off the royalties. You could also compose a one hit wonder or write a best seller novel


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

S/V Gypsy Spirit said:


> We had this in the local (german) news recently, some kids, literally kids, making a lot of money with youtube by becoming youtube celebrities and talking about beauty, girls, make up or doing some sketches, pranks and all that what normal teenagers do, but on youtube. But they have a million+ klicks and sponsors and tv appearances. I don't think that the 103rd sailing vlog will net you more than a couple of hundred bucks a year, unless you really invest some serious time, skills and creativity into creating something like an outstandingly smart, funny, positive, adventurous scripted reality tv show (but on youtube). And that's the moment when your friends and partners become full time actors and you are becoming a full time director/screenwriter/producer/editor, and you are exchanging the cruising life for a working life in a cruising environment. If that is your dream, go for it. People will love it.
> 
> If you really want to establish a constant cash flow with an idea like that, not just an occasional buck here and there ripped out of frugal cruisers you met at the local watering hole, you will have to build up a network with drone and camera operators in the worlds popular cruising grounds, negotiate percentages for providing gigs with them, advertise, put up a website, collect the footage, and employ some professional editors to manage the incoming workload. So, again, you might end up running a regular business 24/7 with all the advantages and disadvantages.
> 
> ...


:laugher ok. you got me. i am old fashioned. i was thinking of places i'd been where people go, specifically, to buy such things and i didn't even think about the internet.  that is the modern way to do such things. heck, ebay can even be a way to do that. good point.



> Well, there IS a dream of coming up with an idea that creates a constant cash flow with low or no maintenance that is manageable from far-away-istan. I personally know a guy that charted a small place in Africa in the age of 24 that was uncharted before, sold it to big charting agencies and is now living off the royalties. You could also compose a one hit wonder or write a best seller novel


there is, of course, a good bit of truth to what you say about earning money on youtube. i still think it's a possibility without exactly selling your soul, like that...if you come up with a new angle. something unique. that's the case with all products, really. of course, if you offer up exactly what everyone else has to offer, i agree wih you, people aren't going to exactly swamp your videos with subscriptions and the like.

as far as videographer, i think you may be looking at too grand a scheme. i wasn't thinking of making huge sums. i guess it's all in what you want. i think things like the youtube vlogs and the videographer would be best used together...maybe make and sell a few pieces of driftwood furniture here and there, too. get yourself a few different things that, when added together, can net you enough to live as you need without dominating all of your time.

really, your one hit wonder idea isn't that crazy, either. maybe not on that scale but, if you write literature, make music, or do artwork for fun, you can surely make a few dollars off of your hobby efforts. maybe more than a few if you are good at what you do and lucky enough to have your work exposed to the right person at the right time.


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## S/V Gypsy Spirit (Sep 25, 2014)

captain jack said:


> heck, ebay can even be a way to do that. good point.


The examples I've seen (call it market research) were on ebay. There is a shop (a "commercial" ebay account) where you can see how much of this and that he/she already sold. It was quite delightful. There definitely is a market, although a local/national one. You could even extend your range by not only selling on ebay but try and contract established international designer furniture retailers once your business is up and running.



> there is, of course, a good bit of truth to what you say about earning money on youtube. i still think it's a possibility without exactly selling your soul, like that...if you come up with a new angle. something unique.


But what kind of new angle would you come up with, regarding sailing/cruising? There have been people building a boat out of plastic bottles. Diving all over the earth. Racing. Old folks on a 18ft cabin cruiser, or young folks on a 50ft Swan. The youngest to sail around the world nonstop. People drifted over the Atlantic in a Home Depot bucket... 
At least, I could imagine something like a real life workshop series, just have a look at the most popular threads here and in the other forums - cruising on 500$/month, or "how to live a billionaires life with no money", including all the cheats and tricks, providing actual information, "real life tested". Go to some place where boats are dirt cheap, buy an old banger, outfit it and go cruising on the shoestring, as a challenge. Go on a self proclaimed peace mission. Go and film all of it, the magic and the disappointments. And have fun doing so. But then, how much can you really make on youtube? I think it can only work if what you are doing right now ALREADY IS the desired new angle, and you don't have to feign stuff, you are filming what you are about to do anyway. And a lot, I mean really a LOT of people like what you are doing, no matter if you show them how to pursue their dreams on a budget, or giving them inspiration or whatever. It's also, as you said, about your character and personality.



> as far as videographer, i think you may be looking at too grand a scheme. i wasn't thinking of making huge sums. i guess it's all in what you want. i think things like the youtube vlogs and the videographer would be best used together...maybe make and sell a few pieces of driftwood furniture here and there, too. get yourself a few different things that, when added together, can net you enough to live as you need without dominating all of your time.


I would disagree in this point. Choose one thing that suits you best. I would recommend one well thought out business model. Work hard for it, and maybe it will pay off one day. I am not talking about huge sums either. I am just talking of a, say, monthly gross target income of ~4000$ _while cruising most of the year_. For this, you would be running around shooting vlogs while operating drones to shoot footage for your buddy, while hammering some driftwood together to sell it on ebay all day long.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

S/V Gypsy Spirit said:


> *But what kind of new angle would you come up with, regarding sailing/cruising? ... *
> At least, I could imagine something like a real life workshop series, just have a look at the most popular threads here and in the other forums - cruising on 500$/month, or "how to live a billionaires life with no money", including all the cheats and tricks, providing actual information, "real life tested". Go to some place where boats are dirt cheap, buy an old banger, outfit it and go cruising on the shoestring, as a challenge. Go on a self proclaimed peace mission. Go and film all of it, the magic and the disappointments. And have fun doing so.


that was the kind of thing i was thinking. there are a lot of very popular vlogs that are just people talking about stuff. commentary. how to. stuff like that. you could do the same thing, with a sailing angle, from your boat. commentary, sailing scenery, and sailing subjects all in the same vlog.



> But then, how much can you really make on youtube? I think it can only work if what you are doing right now ALREADY IS the desired new angle, and you don't have to feign stuff, you are filming what you are about to do anyway. And a lot, I mean really a LOT of people like what you are doing, no matter if you show them how to pursue their dreams on a budget, or giving them inspiration or whatever. It's also, as you said, about your character and personality.
> 
> I would disagree in this point. Choose one thing that suits you best. I would recommend one well thought out business model. Work hard for it, and maybe it will pay off one day. I am not talking about huge sums either. I am just talking of a, say, monthly gross target income of ~4000$ _while cruising most of the year_. For this, you would be running around shooting vlogs while operating drones to shoot footage for your buddy, while hammering some driftwood together to sell it on ebay all day long.


$4000 a month would be great. i am getting by on less than $2000 a month while refitting my boat. if i didn't have land rent, i could easily live on $700-$800 a month.

i think both approaches would work, depending on need and opportunity. there are a lot of different approaches to earning money and they all can work. it just depends on the person and the situation. that's why i thought of a combination of money earning activities. that way, you can earn money wherever you are when different opportunities pop up.

for instance:

you may find opportunity to do video work at one port but not another. the vlogs could be done on a regular, maybe daily, basis... wherever you go. and you could have a project driftwood chair that you work on in your spare time. it can pay to diversify.

of course, if you don't have a lot of different abilities, focusing on one the that you have is your only real choice.

if you are only a carpenter, then that's all you can do. if you have diverse construction skills, you can do more. the year before last, i worked for myself doing home improvements. my main trade is sheetmetal (ductwork) but i have a lot of different skills so i did everything from patios to painting to carpentry. diversity earned me more money than focus on only my trade would have.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Cautionary Tale -- Google/Adsense shafted Dylan Winter:: Adsense, no sense at all


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## S/V Gypsy Spirit (Sep 25, 2014)

captain jack said:


> there are a lot of different approaches to earning money and they all can work. it just depends on the person and the situation. that's why i thought of a combination of money earning activities. that way, you can earn money wherever you are when different opportunities pop up.
> 
> it can pay to diversify.
> 
> diversity earned me more money than focus on only my trade would have.


Maybe we are talking about two different things here.

The first approach is to keep it low key, whatever you want to call it, without a bad connotation. Just traditionally work for what you need for a living on the water. If you need a new mainsail, increase money earning activities and build another driftwood chair or two. Concentrate on earning, not on cruising. If you are all set, return to cruising mode, decrease earning activities and enjoy life.

The second approach, the one I was emphasizing, is to create a source of low maintenance steady income (cash flow) that enables you to just enjoy life _most of the time_ while cruising. I assume we can agree that there is no such thing as a free lunch, so one will still have to work for a living. The key words in question are _time and mobility_. Most gigs or ventures tie you to a place or a market or even a certain customer or office, and most of them will eat up your time. The goal is to get rid of time and mobility limiting factors.

A very simple example of what I mean would be rental property. You rent out say 5 rental units in a good neighborhood, you contract a trustworthy property manager who is endued with extended warrants and instructed to only call you before the excrement really hits the fan.

This example is not suitable to the very most of us because we don't own 5 rental units or the funds to buy them. So the idea would be to create an alternative business model that resembles this scheme. High initial (personal) investment, and, once set up, steady stream of income and low maintenance = ideal for a carefree cruising life.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Mike, if you send me $49.95 and act now before the first hundred callers, I'll send you my eight-dvd set all about "HOW TO PRODUCE YOUR CRUISING VLOG!" and make money from your cruising home in your spare time! After the first hundred are gone, the price goes right back up to $229.95 but you can put that on pay-a-way and have it split into six convenient monthly payments. You'll get the first two DVDs right away, and the other six are sent out ot you as each payment is made.

Act now, this is a limited time special offer!


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

hellosailor said:


> Mike, if you send me $49.95 and act now before the first hundred callers, I'll send you my eight-dvd set all about "HOW TO PRODUCE YOUR CRUISING VLOG!" and make money from your cruising home in your spare time! After the first hundred are gone, the price goes right back up to $229.95 but you can put that on pay-a-way and have it split into six convenient monthly payments. You'll get the first two DVDs right away, and the other six are sent out ot you as each payment is made.
> 
> Act now, this is a limited time special offer!


:laugher great way to make money. there are people who get very rich doing that!


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

S/V Gypsy Spirit said:


> Maybe we are talking about two different things here.
> 
> The first approach is to keep it low key, whatever you want to call it, without a bad connotation. Just traditionally work for what you need for a living on the water. If you need a new mainsail, increase money earning activities and build another driftwood chair or two. Concentrate on earning, not on cruising. If you are all set, return to cruising mode, decrease earning activities and enjoy life.
> 
> ...


i'm not sure we are talking about two different things at all, really. i think we are talking about two ways to do the same thing.

method A: do a bit of work now to ensure hardly any work as you cruise

or

method B: do a bit of work as you can (or as you need) it as you go.
to use my example about working for myself, doing home improvements:

i worked on my own schedule, when i wanted to, only as much as i needed to. i did well and often only worked 2 or 3 days a week. if i wanted to go sailing thursday and friday, i only scheduled work for the first part of the week. some weeks, i only worked a day or two. if i had a job that was time sensitive, i'd get it done as needed. i had the money i needed, plus some, and i had plenty of free time to sail.


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