# Carbon mast life expectancy



## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Guys, give me a help here:

A carbon mast will last less than an aluminum mast?
The radiation (uv), with time, will affect the carbon?
What is the life expectancy of a carbon mast?

a Forte carbon fiber mast has at least double the life expectancy ( comparing with an aluminum mast)

FORTE CARBON FIBER MASTS

U/V clear coat varnish finish as standard, plus the UV inhibitor built into the resin
provides excellent protection against the elements.

http://www.seldenmast.com/Selden_Carbon_For_PDF.pdf

Excellent protection means what? It will last longer than an aluminum mast?

Regards

Paulo


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## CharlesRiver (Dec 3, 2009)

The two on my Freedom have been standing since 1983 w/o any problems.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Are they painted, or just black, with a varnish over?


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

My mast and plenty of others are just fine at 40 years so it sure not gonna last 80 

The way the yards around here handle masts i would sure not want carbon as its the small dings that kill them and many are painted white and when the second paint job is needed it becomes pretty costly job


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tommays said:


> My mast and plenty of others are just fine at 40 years so it sure not gonna last 80


Your mast is a carbon or an aluminum one?



tommays said:


> The way the yards around here handle masts i would sure not want carbon as its the small dings that kill them and many are painted white and when the second paint job is needed it becomes pretty costly job


What is a ding? it is a small knock?

Regards

Paulo


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Paulo,

A "ding" is a small dent or blemish, usually caused by an impact. 

For instance, if someone parks their car too close to yours, they might hit your car with their door when they open it. If they hit your car hard enough, you might end-up with a "ding" in the side of your car. 

Or, if you are pounding a nail into wood with a hammer, and miss the nail, you might make a ding where the head of the hammer impacts the wood.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

My 1981 J24 which was only raced has its orginal aluminum mast and my Cal 29 is 1970 and its orginal aluminum mast does just fine and i see no reason it could not last another 40  

Just look at a carbon road bicycle and what happens from the tiny rock chips the tires throw up 

Is carbon better sure BUT is it practical or necessary for 98% of the owners NO

We use a Carbon spinaker pole on the 35' and its great because its so light BUT were on #2 as #1 failed pretty catastrophically and did its best to try and take some crew with it


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Also, carbon fiber masts can have serious issues with metal hardware attached to them. The graphite is more noble than any of the metals and leads to galvanic corrosion cells forming unless care is taken to isolate the metal from the carbon fiber. 

A ding is a small dent or scratch caused when a mast bumps into something else. Scratches can be particularly bad for laminate masts.

Also, for a cruising boat, an aluminum mast makes more sense. It is easier to repair/replace an aluminum mast than it is a CF one, especially in more remote areas. Also, CF has issues with lightning—far more so than Aluminum.


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## priscilla (Mar 20, 2000)

My two carbon masts have no corrosion at fittings or winches, no dings or scratches and no problems with lightening. Painted white, they have been sailing for about 20 years. My booms however are aluminum and have scratches, chipped paint, and lots of corrosion around cleats and fittings.

My carbon masts are about half the weight of my old aluminum masts greatly reducing the weight aloft allowing the boat to sail fast in heavier winds without excessive heeling.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

priscilla said:


> My two carbon masts have no corrosion at fittings or winches, no dings or scratches and no problems with lightening. Painted white, they have been sailing for about 20 years. My booms however are aluminum and have scratches, chipped paint, and lots of corrosion around cleats and fittings.
> 
> My carbon masts are about half the weight of my old aluminum masts greatly reducing the weight aloft allowing the boat to sail fast in heavier winds without excessive heeling.


Good input, Priscilla... what boat did you retrofit Carbon spars onto?


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Thanks everybody, for the information and for the English lesson 

I would not buy a boat with a Carbon mast because it is just a very expensive option that makes a lot of sense for racers, but not much for a cruiser. However I had a very good offer on a boat with a Carbon mast and I wanted to know more about Carbon masts.

For the information on the posts we can take some interesting conclusions: The ones that have 20 year's old carbon masts say: No problem, no corrosion. The ones that don't have them say: Corrosion problems, problems with scratches and dings.

Now, there is someone that has or had a Carbon mast and had or has problems?

Regards

Paulo


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Around here mast stepping is a common occurrence in many of the yards as there is not enough storage on the water front without moving the boat past power-lines 

In the yards that leave it up you have to sign a wind damage disclaimer as 60 MHP northeasters are common 

And its the putting up and down were the issues start to occur as when there doing 300+ masts caution is NOT a strong point

I have friends with deeper pockets that will NOT store there boat here and go to Mystic and points north were the yards will exercise the proper caution

If you don't fell repairs happen go over to Fix It Anarchy as a carbon failure of some type is daily item


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## nickmerc (Nov 2, 2008)

Can you elaborate on the issues with lighting? What are these issues where carbon has far more than aluminum?



sailingdog said:


> Also, carbon fiber masts can have serious issues with metal hardware attached to them. The graphite is more noble than any of the metals and leads to galvanic corrosion cells forming unless care is taken to isolate the metal from the carbon fiber.
> 
> A ding is a small dent or scratch caused when a mast bumps into something else. Scratches can be particularly bad for laminate masts.
> 
> Also, for a cruising boat, an aluminum mast makes more sense. It is easier to repair/replace an aluminum mast than it is a CF one, especially in more remote areas. Also, CF has issues with lightning?far more so than Aluminum.


________
The Cliff Condo Cosy Beach


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## priscilla (Mar 20, 2000)

On a 48' Hinckley yawl (1970). Mizzen is 38', main is 62' much taller then the standard Hinckley rig. Masts are Awlgrip white, spreaders are wood and there is a lightening rod at the masthead.


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## CharlesRiver (Dec 3, 2009)

PCP said:


> Are they painted, or just black, with a varnish over?


 They are wrapped in fiberglass and coated with some sort of filler. No dings, no chips and no flaking paint, unlike my aluminum booms.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

My friend Kim's boat was hit by lightning and the removal examination and fixing of the mast was HUGE money and a long time to repair. Carbon masts and lightning don't always mix well. I would prefer one painted to help with UV more so than a clear coat. Lots of benefits to Carbon but lots of pro's & con's to weigh such as lightning, UV etc...

You would be wise to track down a copy of this months Professional Boatbuilder Magazine. There is a great article on examination techniques for examining carbon spar damage from lightning strikes..

Issue Number 128 December/January - Carbon & Lightning, Damage Testing A Carbon Mast Page 50

They last until ...........


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

IMHP you have to keep some cost perspective 

Melges 24 complete carbon mast is 9000 dollars

Melges 32 carbon spreader is 1000 dollars and a complete carbon mast is 28000 dollars

And the prices just go up


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

nickmerc said:


> Can you elaborate on the issues with lighting? What are these issues where carbon has far more than aluminum?


When a boat is hit by lightning, an aluminum mast often survives with little or no damage. The electronics are toast, but the spar is fine. When a boat with a CF mast gets hit, the mast is often damaged internally and the damage is often not visible without unstepping the mast and running tests on the spar to see if any internal delamination occurred.

CF masts are also far more expensive compared to their aluminum brethren. Also, any damage to a CF spar is going to be harder to repair if you're in remote cruising areas, where an aluminum spar is often going to be repairable with local resources.


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

Info on carbonfiber masts/lightning :

Lightning Risk For Carbon Fibre Sailboat Masts

Personally,I'm on my second boat with a carbon mast. The first boat had her mast upgraded to carbon in 1993 and that mast is still going strong. My current boat had her mast replaced with carbon fiber three years ago. Both masts had lightening arresters installed. 
I am sold on carbon fiber technology. I could list all of the benefits but I'd be on here all night.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

So why did you carbon guys not go with the carbon standing rigging for the full inprovement


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## MooreVOLS (Jul 29, 2010)

Carbon fiber is only somewhat conductive and that is why it tends to delaminate or just explode when struck by lightning, if not properly grounded, causing more damage than a standard aluminum mast. Aluminum is far more conductive and therefore it can defuse the electricity easier. This is why carbon fiber masts must have an insert to help conduct the electricity. The idea that carbon fiber somehow attracts lighting is completely false.

As to the qualities of carbon fiber. Carbon fiber does not ding like your car door as previously stated. It is stronger than aluminum and if manufactured properly it can actually be tuned to bend at different points and to different degrees. It can actually bend farther and return to its original position than aluminum if that is what it was designed to do. It is far more expensive mostly because the raw materials are more expensive and it requires much more knowledge to work with correctly, not to mention a huge pressurized oven. The question is it worth it, really depends on personal preference. I have a carbon fiber road bike and I wouldn't ride anything else but that is just me.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Thanks guys!

After having considered all posts and considering my boat mast will not be stepped down frequently I would say that a Carbon mast is a better mast, with a big weak point that was referred by Dan and others: If not conveniently prepared against, a Carbon mast can suffer severe destruction by a casual lightening.

Mac and Vols say that their masts are prepared to the eventuality, but after reading the information Selden has available about their masts, I have not seen anything that indicates their masts are prepared to minimize a lightning strike.

http://www.seldenmast.com/Selden_Carbon_For_PDF.pdf

As the boat in question has a Selden carbon mast I sent them this message and I hope they reply, to me or to this forum:

"I hesitate in buying a boat with a Carbon mast. I have heard too many stories of masts hit and destroyed by lighting. It is said that if a mast should have an insert to help conduct the electricity or have lightening arresters installed. I have not seen anything about it on your product description. Are Selden Carbon masts prone to be destroyed by a casual lightning?
If you want you can answer on line, since this is being discussed on a public forum:"

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/70354-carbon-mast-life-expectancy-3.html

Regards

Paulo


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## CharlesRiver (Dec 3, 2009)

tommays said:


> So why did you carbon guys not go with the carbon standing rigging for the full inprovement


 For the "full improvement" I went with no standing rigging with my carbon fiber masts. Does your aluminum mast have aluminum standing rigging for the "full improvement".


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## Deric (Feb 3, 2008)

*Additional Ref of Free standing Carbon Fiber Masts*

For viewers who may come across this thread as a matter of interest regarding carbon fiber masts, Eric Sponberg, Naval Architect, has detailed information on carbon fiber masts. Sponberg Yacht Design Inc. Mr. Sponberg makes a strong case regarding the safety and efficiency of the free standing carbon fiber masts.

I sail a cat ketch rig that has free standing carbon fiber masts designed by Mr. Sponberg. At the time I bought the boat, I had no idea who designed the masts.

I find the cat ketch does less healing, and gives an overall smoother rider. I had sailed a Catalina prior to the ketch, and at the time I had the Catalina, the aluminum mast was perfect.

Regarding the cat ketch, I particularly enjoy having only tend to two sheets, not having to rig all the stays and shrouds, and the clean looking simplicity. Unstepping the masts is very simple, each mast is held by two ss bolt rods that slide through the mast and the column base -- that the mast slides over. Of course electrical wires must be disconnected as well when unstepping the masts.

Reading and researching about the attributes and behavior of the mast in terms of material, construction, and integration with a particular boat, helps one to determine if a carbon fiber mast is right for oneself.


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## Deric (Feb 3, 2008)

Happy New Year 2012:

One year later since my last post. The carbon fiber masts on my boat are still working. The CF mast are 34 years of age.

Looking forward to new sailing season.


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