# Lithium batteries and EP



## Beav222 (Jan 13, 2016)

I am getting ready to build a 40' cat and I am researching electro propulsion. My delema is how many battery banks do I need. Of course there has to be one for the house electrical but do I need to separate two others specifically for the two motors or will one big bank do the job? Or should I have one for the house and one for the motors? Keep in mind I will have solar and a backup generator. At this stage I'm planning for 3-5 hours of run time but that will be extended by the solar and generator in hybrid mode.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Beav222 said:


> I am getting ready to build a 40' cat and I am researching electro propulsion. My delema is how many battery banks do I need. Of course there has to be one for the house electrical but do I need to separate two others specifically for the two motors or will one big bank do the job? Or should I have one for the house and one for the motors? Keep in mind I will have solar and a backup generator. At this stage I'm planning for 3-5 hours of run time but that will be extended by the solar and generator in hybrid mode.


I always like to have a backup. When I converted my Nonsuch 30u to EP in 2008 I kept my house bank separate from the propulsion bank. I did this because:

1) I wanted to have two ways to power emergency equipment like a VHF radio, AIS etc.. and not have all those eggs in one basket. I was an early adopter and it was a leap of faith to go with EP at that time.

2) Since the house bank was already wired up it was easier just to leave it in place. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" was my thinking. 

I would still do the same today. Though I do occasionally tap into the EP battery bank when at anchor to power refrigeration and/or laptop use if the weather has a few rainy days and drops solar charging for the house bank enough. Nice to have the extra power and not have to fire up the generator.

As far as having two EP banks. I think you could go either way. having two separate banks would give you some redundancy should one bank have some type of failure. My experience is with AGM batteries not lithium but, I find the EP system to be very reliable.

With two separate EP banks you could:
1)Operate off of one and keep the other in reserve
2)Operate off of one and use the generator, solar to charge the other bank.

EP systems are very easy to change to change and modify. You could start with two separate banks and easily make them into one big bank or visa versa. Depending on how you find which way works best for your needs.


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## Beav222 (Jan 13, 2016)

mbianka said:


> Beav222 said:
> 
> 
> > I am getting ready to build a 40' cat and I am researching electro propulsion. My delema is how many battery banks do I need. Of course there has to be one for the house electrical but do I need to separate two others specifically for the two motors or will one big bank do the job? Or should I have one for the house and one for the motors? Keep in mind I will have solar and a backup generator. At this stage I'm planning for 3-5 hours of run time but that will be extended by the solar and generator in hybrid mode.
> ...


Thanks so much for the info. Technology is changing so fast. In 4 years I'll be ready to invest and hopefully cost will be lower. That is the wave of the future!!


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

If it was me, I'd replace only one engine on a cat with EP, and leave the other diesel as an emergency engine/charging system for the EP. I'd have a house bank, a start bank for the diesel and an operational bank for the EP.
Of course it would matter a great deal what I intended to do with the boat, but I'm not a fan of putting all my eggs in one basket or in this case, two EP motors. Also, with a cat you must consider the weight of more batteries and electric motors versus a couple of small diesels if you need a minimum number of operating hours for safety, as you probably aren't going to be able to rely on the boat's sailing abilities to make a safe harbor in some conditions.
Also, from what Maine Sail has said, you are talking 6k to 8k just for a modest lithium house bank, so two lithium setups might get close to 20k for powering the EP alone. Add a couple of motors, running gear and a gene and it might be quite a bit cheaper to install a couple of small diesels.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Just curious. What's the affinity for EP?


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## Beav222 (Jan 13, 2016)

Minnewaska said:


> Just curious. What's the affinity for EP?


At this point I am in the planning stages of my build and am looking to educate myself about all the possibilities out there. It seems there are a lot of naysayers out there who haven't don't their homework. But I guess that is true with anything. From what I've read and watched there are problems with any form of combustion engine like, fuel, bad fuel, hard to get fuel, running out of fuel, overheating, water pumps, fuel pumps, maintenance, hoses. There is none of that with EP. I'm not trying to sell it but it looks more inviting all the time. The only draw back is cost of batteries. And as for running out of power, there is regeneration and backup gen. No maintenance, no maintenance costs. 
The design I'm building calls for two 9.9 yammies. Pretty simple but is that the only way?! 
Not being a sailor I rely on the old dogs for advice. 
Sounds like there might be a couple diesel salesmen here. ?
Thanks again for all the advice all. 
Dean


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm not going to sell you on a diesel. But there are pros and cons to EP too. Not sure what your plans are for the boat, but getting replacement parts or competent technician in some parts of the world would be difficult/impossible, whereas there is a diesel wrench everywhere. You also need to go to school on proper charging protocols, so that you can get those huge batter banks topped off with solar/wind. Nothing kills those expensive batts faster than being improperly charged, or in some cases, not fully charged often enough. Otherwise, you're just running an engine anyway to top them up (which has exactly the same maintenance requirements of a diesel). All the criticisms you mentioned of diesels are valid, although, I don't think there is too much trouble finding fuel. Especially since many boats will get 500-1000 miles per tank, and you're probably going to sail some.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

"Thanks so much for the info. Technology is changing so fast. In 4 years I'll be ready to invest and hopefully cost will be lower. That is the wave of the future!! "
In 4 years the tech will have changed and prices will be the exact same as now or more expensive.
I have my doubts about it being the "wave of the future" in the near future, 10-20 years and maybe.
Too complex, too expensive and not enough range, my books go diesel if you need to add hybrid mode to get added range. Why burn diesel to make electricty? Burn the diesel to make thrust!


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## Beav222 (Jan 13, 2016)

Here is my thinking, I do know a lot about mechanics but that knowledge and skill are limited. The whole idea of sailing is to sail. Think people said the same thing about ICE. They would never catch on. I'm just researching. I hear you can run a small genet and it extends your range dramatically. What with solar and wind and regeneration if you run out of power just heave to and enjoy while you recharge. I plan to get on my boat and wave goodbye. Now I need to look at weight of batteries, motors, controllers etc. 
Dean


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

So what do you do if weather or sea conditions are not good enough to heave to for a few days to charge? End up on the rocks?
Why run a genset and lose 20% of the energry from the liquid fuel? Burn the fuel and go 20% further.
You don't get near 100% efficiency conveting a liquid fuel to electricity through a mechanical means like an engine turning an alternator or generator.
Wind generators are just as noisy as an internal combustion engine but probably more annoying due to the frequencies.
Pretty much have to have the deck of the boat one big solar panel to get enough electricity to make that worth while, unless you want to take days and days to charge.
10-20 years from now maybe feasable, not now in my book. This isn't even getting into repairs in a remote location, easy to get engine parts from any number of retailers, not so much electric......
Day sailor who is back to his dock everynight is the ideal candidate for current electrical tech, think it is brilliant for that. I don't think it is anywhere near ready for long term cruising.
Down the road I do fully believe internal combustion will be a museum oddity, but it will be a long time from now and I don't think it will be with batteries.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Beav222 said:


> Here is my thinking, I do know a lot about mechanics but that knowledge and skill are limited. The whole idea of sailing is to sail. Think people said the same thing about ICE. They would never catch on. I'm just researching. I hear you can run a small genet and it extends your range dramatically. What with solar and wind and regeneration if you run out of power just heave to and enjoy while you recharge. I plan to get on my boat and wave goodbye. Now I need to look at weight of batteries, motors, controllers etc.
> Dean


I'm seriously interested in going lithium/ion, but at this time is is not affordable or cost effective for us, yet I read all I can about it.
However, somewhere in here you lost me. If 'the whole idea of sailing is to sail' why would you need extended range on EP and why would you need to or want to heave to for recharging, if you are sailing? Why would you run out of power if you are sailing? Wouldn't your windgen and solar keep your systems functioning and your batteries charged while you are under sail?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Beav222 said:


> Not being a sailor I rely on the old dogs for advice.
> 
> Sounds like there might be a couple diesel salesmen here. ?


Well you got that in Spades! This place is a veritable dumping ground of Old Dogs. I have been trying to get them snuffed out for years. But it is, I admit, to snuff a wiley old ... Anyway, there's a more important warning for you: Several of these said same Old Dogs are indeed diesel salesmen! Nicely picked up! 
They do hang around the forum sniffing out those who don't sail yet and try to make them buy old fashioned crap like diesel engines.

Onward, Dean, onward! Don't let those dogs lick your bowl!

Mark


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

I guess you might add that hopefully you won't have to ask them for a tow in the future.........
I once knew guy who took out all of his gas fired devices and replaced them with electrical equivalents as he had an irrational fear of a fire in his home. Heat pump technology was rather new at the time and he was never happy with the result as the air coming from his vents never felt warm as his old gas furnace supplied. Sometimes what works is worth more than what is promised. I believe the old saying is "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

capta said:


> I'm seriously interested in going lithium/ion, but at this time is is not affordable or cost effective for us, yet I read all I can about it.
> However, somewhere in here you lost me. If 'the whole idea of sailing is to sail' why would you need extended range on EP and why would you need to or want to heave to for recharging, if you are sailing? Why would you run out of power if you are sailing? Wouldn't your windgen and solar keep your systems functioning and your batteries charged while you are under sail?


Exhibit A:


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## Beav222 (Jan 13, 2016)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Beav222 said:
> 
> 
> > Not being a sailor I rely on the old dogs for advice.
> ...


**\;-))


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Beav-
Just bear in mind, a diesel engine will run quit happily when totally submerged in salt water, as long as the air intake is above the water line. Electric motors and charging systems, not so much.
Then there is the fuel issue. Offshore races often require 36-48 hours worth of main engine fuel in case of bad weather or calms. As long as your genset can feed your motors for that long, you'd have the same safety margin.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

I don't know of any charging system or alternator on a diesel that will run submerged in seawater unless it's filled with snake oil or the person selling that idea is a snake oil salesperson! Electric motors can be water tight and sealed and are sold in the marine industry as well as other industries.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Not the alternator, but the engine itself. unlike spark engines which need nice dry high voltage systems, the diesel will keep on keeping on. Alternators, a different problem.

And while shaft seals on electric engines certainly can and do work, they all eventually wear or leak. O-rings, graphite blocks, there are a significant number of failures in routine use.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

hellosailor said:


> Not the alternator, but the engine itself. unlike spark engines which need nice dry high voltage systems, the diesel will keep on keeping on. Alternators, a different problem.
> 
> And while shaft seals on electric engines certainly can and do work, they all eventually wear or leak. O-rings, graphite blocks, there are a significant number of failures in routine use.


Agreed.. but the type and use of the sealed electric motors would have to be sourced for the intended use... but I'm sure for the longevity of the use of the motor it would have already been tested for xxx number of hours before new seals/bearings, commutators, etc. need replacing. If the motors are brush-less type motors then a plus as they would have less wearing parts (only bearings/seals).


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I don't think you will find any EP motors, sealed or not, with a warranty equal to that of any conventional engine. Which says plenty about how much faith their makers have in them.

Not that it can't be done--perhaps--but that it isn't being done.


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

Ocean volt offers a 5 year warrantee on their motors.

I see the appeal of EP, especially for a live-aboard, island hopping. Anchor somewhere for a few days, make your own power in spades, "refuel", make water, dive, fish, read, relax. Get bored? Sail to the next anchorage or island. If conditions are bad for sailing, motor for a few hours, or motorsail for maximum efficiency. Emergency, need to travel longer range with sails down? Fire up a 2K Honda generator and motor, with extra power coming in from solar and wind, probably for days on a few gallons of gas. Solar and wind makes you pretty much self sufficient if you're not in a hurry. And lithium ion is no maintenance, just don't leave it completely empty for long.

I have to admit, I'm partial to EP. I bought an electric motorcycle for commuting last year and loved it so much I traded in my truck for a cheap electric car (15K after rebates). No more waiting for gas at gas stations, no more maintenance, I plug in when I get home and I always have a "full tank" in the morning. When I'm done paying for day care (a few years away unfortunately), I'm going to buy a boat again, but one with a bad engine, and have it converted to EP. I love the idea of bopping around the Potomac and Chessy powered by solar and wind.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

This comes up way to often... On a 40' Cat you simply cannot carry enough batteries to matter. And a generator that is large enough to power the propulsion engines needs to be the same size as the diesels you take out. So for a 40' cat figure on a 60kw generator. Otherwise you have to accept significantly less power. 

Frankly you can't stack enough solar on a sailboat to meet propulsion power unless you 1) cover every available sq inch with solar panels, and 2) are prepared to motor an hour and wait five days to recharge.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Stumble said:


> This comes up way to often... On a 40' Cat you simply cannot carry enough batteries to matter. And a generator that is large enough to power the propulsion engines needs to be the same size as the diesels you take out. So for a 40' cat figure on a 60kw generator. Otherwise you have to accept significantly less power.
> 
> Frankly you can't stack enough solar on a sailboat to meet propulsion power unless you 1) cover every available sq inch with solar panels, and 2) are prepared to motor an hour and wait five days to recharge.


All good points. All you have to do is google pictures of solar powered boats to realize how big an array you would need to run a motor for 12 hours, never mind the batteries.
I figure if I went to EP with conventional batteries and a backup generator, I'd add a thousand pounds to the boat, minimum. Like the man says, all you have to do is figure the generator KWH needed to keep your boat off the rocks after a couple of days with little sun and wind, and you will see the realities of EP. Soon maybe, but not today, for anything more that a few hours off the dock.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

capta said:


> All good points. All you have to do is google pictures of solar powered boats to realize how big an array you would need to run a motor for 12 hours, never mind the batteries.
> I figure if I went to EP with conventional batteries and a backup generator, I'd add a thousand pounds to the boat, minimum. Like the man says, all you have to do is figure the generator KWH needed to keep your boat off the rocks after a couple of days with little sun and wind, and you will see the realities of EP. Soon maybe, but not today, for anything more that a few hours off the dock.


My EP system turned out to be 100 pounds lighter than the 27hp Westerbeke it replaced and thats with AGM batteries not Lithium.


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## chris95040 (Sep 26, 2008)

Stating fuel availability/quality is a 'negative' for diesel, while stating range extendion via genset as a 'positive' for EP is some pretty dubious logic. 

Now the whole drop the hook and recharge thing does sound nice, trust me I'm a fan of the EP idea (and think any diesel dealers making contributions to these discussions and hiding their commercial interest should have the $&$& kicked out of them) but it does sound like a really tall order.

If you aim to be underpowered (which means any 'range' ballparks you've done based on hours of runtime are probably inflated) and think you can get by with 20 hp, and a 4 hour runtime, thats....

20hp * 4 hours * 0.75kw/hp = 60 kilowatt hours.

Thats a lot of juice. Solar panels put out, 20 watts per square foot? You need a lot of square feet or a lot of sunny hours to get to 60,000.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Are there really diesel salesman here? I thought that was hyperbole. 

I was just coincidentally watching a cruising vid, where the OP described having enough diesel aboard to motor for 160 hours, straight. That's nearly a week, without ever shutting it off. Day and night, all weather conditions. When EP evolves to that level, it will be competitive for long distance cruising. Running a diesel genset to then run an EP is fine, but you're still in the diesel game.


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

Why does everyone want to motor for a week straight? This is supposed to be a sailing vessel. I want a setup that lets me run full speed for an hour in an emergency, cruise for 8 hours if there's no wind, so I can jump to the next island, or motor-sail for days on end with very little engine power being used.

Oh, the J/88 Oceanvolt can already do that. (Can't post a link, too few postings)

Motor-sailing at around 6 knots, the j88 will go pretty much all day. The trick is to not run the motor at full speed, the lower speed, the more efficient. Everyone wants to get a 160 hour run time out of the batteries, at hull speed, yes, you're going to need five tons of batteries to achieve that. This isn't a diesel trawler, it's a sailboat. Enough power to get into a harbor in a storm (full speed for an hour) and the ability to cruise long distances at a few knots (Bianka does this I believe) with a little honda generator for days on end if there's no wind and you need to do a crossing. With the solar and wind available today, the same power that that generator can generate can be created while at anchor (read the J-88 Oceanvolt web page), just under 2kW per hour. Sail and generate another 1kW from hydro power, and you're fully charged in under 3 hours, while sailing under wind alone.

A multi-hull setup would be even more efficient, far more space for solar and (I believe) less drag, you just can't expect to go full speed, under battery alone, for days. It's a marathon, not a race. A self refueling, lighter than diesel tanks and diesel engine, next to no maintenance, torque always ready when needed, no spell or vibration, marathon.


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

chris95040 said:


> Stating fuel availability/quality is a 'negative' for diesel, while stating range extendion via genset as a 'positive' for EP is some pretty dubious logic.
> 
> Now the whole drop the hook and recharge thing does sound nice, trust me I'm a fan of the EP idea (and think any diesel dealers making contributions to these discussions and hiding their commercial interest should have the $&$& kicked out of them) but it does sound like a really tall order.
> 
> ...


It's like a Chevy Volt, you can get to work and back on electric only, which means you barely even burn gas. But if you need to drive a few states away once a year, the engine fires up and you can make the long trip. Island hopping, sitting at anchor for a week at each location, just putzing around, no need for the gen. Making a 100 mile crossing over night with no wind, fire it up and power across. If wind is decent, it isn't needed, but it's always a good idea to have a backup. I like the idea of having dual motors, wind, solar, hydro and a gas backup. A truly hybrid boat.

And the engine doesn't need to be a $20,000 giant diesel, Bianka gets by with a little Honda carry on generator. You just can't expect to do 7 knots under electric alone with that setup, not for more than a few hours.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

mbianka said:


> My EP system turned out to be 100 pounds lighter than the 27hp Westerbeke it replaced and thats with AGM batteries not Lithium.


What is your max run time in an emergency at full power w/o an auxiliary charging source such as a generator large enough to insure operation anytime?


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

He's been sailing for something like 7 years on his fairly cheap EP setup, if he was going to get into trouble because of it, his boat would be parked on the rocks by now. If anything, he's able to respond to things going bad faster, with instant on power from the motor, max torque available at all times, vs firing up a diesel and hoping it doesn't have issues when it's cranked to full speed right off the bat, for a few minutes of max power to get out of the way of something. If a sailer needs to take down sails and run at full speed for hours, they're not a very good sailor. Go buy a twin engine cruiser if you want to motor as fast as possible all day.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Bianka is also on a 30' monohull that started life with either a 23hp or 27hp diesel. The OP was asking about a 40' catamaran which would have an assumed twin 40hp diesels. It's a lot easier to build an EP system around needing a peak 17kw than a peak of 60kw.

Bianka also has a coastal cruiser not a liveaboard cruising boat, which also makes it easier as he returns to the slip most of the time and recharges off of hydro power. Which makes designing an EP system much easier. 

Nevet says he only wants to motor at peak power for an hour, so let's actually work the numbers on this... To keep in like with other 40' cats we install twin 30kw EP motors in the boat. An hour works great since we know we will need a usable 60kwh of battery power. Assuming we use FLA batteries and go with Rolls-Surrett G31 12v batteries (12v 120ah 60lbs) each battery stores 1.44kwh of power at 20 hours (where most batteries are rated), but in this case we are going to drain the entire battery bank in just an hour. So these batteries at a 2hour rate (we are only going to drain them 1/2 way to preserve some battery life) only store 64ah. This means each battery is capable of providing .384kwh. To meet our 60kwh demand then we need to have 156 Group 31 batteries installed, for a weight of 9,360. At $200 per battery this is just $33,000 dollars. 

Good luck stacking five tons of batteries on a 40' sailboat. 

Let's also do the same numbers with Lifepo batteries, since I am sure those have to be on the table for an EP boat. Now I don't have a brand of EP batteries I know enough about to trust, so I am just using battery specs from lithium-batteries.com There are almost certainly better recomendations out there. 

But in this case we start with a 12.8v battery with 150ah capacity. And I will assume that the 150ah capacity is rated at 20 hours, but is equally valid at 2 hours. Here each battery stores 1.92kwh of power and has a usable capacity of 80% (again I am not lifepo expert but I think this is a safe discharge level). So we can actually pull 1.54kwh from the battery. To pull 60kwh of power then we need 39 of these batteries at $1,900 each. So just the battery side of this is going to cost $75,000. Each of these batteries weighs in at just 65lbs, so we only need to dedicate 2,535lbs to our battery bank. 

The trivial process of storing all these batteries is left as an exercise for the reader. 


The second demand was to be able to motor for up to 8 hours at cruising speed. Again assuming our 40' catamaran, and the same engines, we just need to know how much power they deliver at the prop to figure EP power draw. In this case I am modeling the Yanmar 3JH5E since that's what's used on the Lagoon 400. At a very reasonable 2000rpm the power curve at the prop indicates a little over 8kw delivered. So at cruising speed the boat is pulling down a little over 16kw/h over 8 hours, for a necessary battery capacity of 128kwh. 

So to meet this 8 hour cruising speed demand we need to roughly double the size of the lifepo battery bank. But luckily because we are now drawing the power over 8 hours instead of 1 the lead acids actually don't need to get much bigger ([email protected] hours vs [email protected] hours). Heck, it's close enough to call it a push and stick with the 10,000lbs of batteries we already have. 


So for a meal $33,000 (FLA) or $150,000 (Lifepo) and an stalled weight of 10,000lbs (FLA) or 5,000lhs (lifepo) we can meet the energy demands outlined. 

I should point out that it has been suggested using a 2kw Honda generator to offset the necessary batteries. In the first case (batteries drained in an hour) that allows us to get rid of 1 lifepo battery or 4 FLA. In the second case we can get rig of 8 FLA or 8 lifepo batteries. 


As always feel free to check my math, but these are the number I get. Since it is a practicaly impossibility to install this many batteries on a 40' catamaran, and I consider this usage to be an incredibly minimal amount of power (if doable), I simply cannot accept a pure EP system as a real solution at this time, even when backed with a 2kw generator. 

Just a fun fact. After our one hour motor into a storm that 2kw generator will take almost two days running full speed to recharge the batteries. I really hope you don't drag anchor again.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

nevetsyad said:


> He's been sailing for something like 7 years on his fairly cheap EP setup, if he was going to get into trouble because of it, his boat would be parked on the rocks by now. If anything, he's able to respond to things going bad faster, with instant on power from the motor, max torque available at all times, vs firing up a diesel and hoping it doesn't have issues when it's cranked to full speed right off the bat, for a few minutes of max power to get out of the way of something. If a sailer needs to take down sails and run at full speed for hours, they're not a very good sailor. Go buy a twin engine cruiser if you want to motor as fast as possible all day.


In 30 years of sailing I have drug anchor twice in a Tropical Storm, in both cases massive diesel power is the only thing that saved our boat, and those we would have drifted into. Suggesting that anyone who can't sail into 100mph winds needs to give up sailing is simply offensive.

Finally if you keep your engine in such a bad state or repair that you can't rely on it when you crank it up, then you need to learn how to take care of your things. I can absolutely trust every engine on every boat I maintain will crank the first time, every time, or there would be someone working on them until they get to that condition.


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

Dual 30kW motors? Hot damn, you trying to do 40 knots? Can I get a link for the motors you are proposing? Largest for multi-hulls that I can find is 15kW and I believe that's speced for a 60 foot boat.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

capta said:


> What is your max run time in an emergency at full power w/o an auxiliary charging source such as a generator large enough to insure operation anytime?


My system is spec'd at 20 miles at 4 knots on the current AGM battery bank. Did I ever had to take it to that end. No! It is a sailboat and that's how I like to propel it. Though I can easily operate until the fuel runs out while operating in hybrid mode with just a 48 pound Honda 2000 generator. I have done a trip of 40 miles using a gallon and half fuel. I've had my old diesel fail underway a number of times and I find my EP system to be much more reliable and quiet than it ever was. If I wanted to have extra insurance for extended motoring I could buy a second Honda 2000 that is easily stowed on board. You won't do that with a diesel. Though I have found my Honda to be so reliable I don't see the need. With a diesel if it fails and it will at some point someone is not going to have a fun time down below trying to fix it.  If I need to work on my Honda 2000 it sits on the table in front of me. Yeah you have to watch the amps a lot more if you are just doing a pure electric system without hybrid option available. For me I spend more time watching the sails and don't worry whether EP will help me make it to the destination. I know it will and has for the past eight years.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

nevetsyad said:


> Dual 30kW motors? Hot damn, you trying to do 40 knots? Can I get a link for the motors you are proposing? Largest for multi-hulls that I can find is 15kW and I believe that's speced for a 60 foot boat.


Stock engines for a Lagoon 400 are twin 40hp or 30kw engines. Which is the boat I modeled. But the standard engines for almost any 40' catamaran are going to range between 30hp (22kw) and 40hp (30kw) each.

If you are finding a 60' with a 15kw engine you are probably looking at the motor for the dingy.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

mbianka said:


> My system is spec'd at 20 miles at 4 knots on the current AGM battery bank. Did I ever had to take it to that end. No! It is a sailboat and that's how I like to propel it. Though I can easily operate until the fuel runs out while operating in hybrid mode with just a 48 pound Honda 2000 generator. I have done a trip of 40 miles using a gallon and half fuel. I've had my old diesel fail underway a number of times and I find my EP system to be much more reliable and quiet than it ever was. If I wanted to have extra insurance for extended motoring I could buy a second Honda 2000 that is easily stowed on board. You won't do that with a diesel. Though I have found my Honda to be so reliable I don't see the need. With a diesel if it fails and it will at some point someone is not going to have a fun time down below trying to fix it.  If I need to work on my Honda 2000 it sits on the table in front of me. Yeah you have to watch the amps a lot more if you are just doing a pure electric system without hybrid option available. For me I spend more time watching the sails and don't worry whether EP will help me make it to the destination. I know it will and has for the past eight years.


MBianka... Good for you and your EP propelled vessel. You have been doing EP for the past 8 years and it has not failed on you... You seem to know your vessel and it's limitations with EP power and it has not deterred you in your quest. Why is it that others that do not have EP power seem to know more that YOU? Why do people who are not doctors here seem to know more than the real doctors? Why do non engineers here seem to know more than DEGREED engineers here? Why do non surveyors here seem to know more than certified surveyors? You get my drift... I think EP is the way to go and battery power/solar generation still have a ways to go as far as innovation with new technologies but I see a day when fossil fuel propulsion is nothing but as ancient as the steam powered engines of the past. Keep posting your threads about EP power as many are eager to hear your next replies.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Stumble said:


> Bianka also has a coastal cruiser not a liveaboard cruising boat, which also makes it easier as he returns to the slip most of the time and recharges off of hydro power. Which makes designing an EP system much easier.


No I liveaboard for about six months of the year and the boat is either on a mooring or at anchor. Rarely if ever do I tie up to a dock except maybe to refill the water tanks. I have also dragged anchor. Which is not fun when single handed but, the EP system did what I needed to it to do.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

mbianka said:


> My system is spec'd at 20 miles at 4 knots on the current AGM battery bank. Did I ever had to take it to that end. No! It is a sailboat and that's how I like to propel it. Though I can easily operate until the fuel runs out while operating in hybrid mode with just a 48 pound Honda 2000 generator. I have done a trip of 40 miles using a gallon and half fuel. I've had my old diesel fail underway a number of times and I find my EP system to be much more reliable and quiet than it ever was. If I wanted to have extra insurance for extended motoring I could buy a second Honda 2000 that is easily stowed on board. You won't do that with a diesel. Though I have found my Honda to be so reliable I don't see the need. With a diesel if it fails and it will at some point someone is not going to have a fun time down below trying to fix it.  If I need to work on my Honda 2000 it sits on the table in front of me. Yeah you have to watch the amps a lot more if you are just doing a pure electric system without hybrid option available. For me I spend more time watching the sails and don't worry whether EP will help me make it to the destination. I know it will and has for the past eight years.


I'm not going to argue diesel versus EP. That isn't the point. And it means nothing to say it's a sailboat and one SHOULD sail it. I've got lots of sails and over 50 years of almost full time sailing experience (it is my profession, not my hobby), so for me sailing is the first choice.
What my point was, in a situation where your engine/motor is your ONLY means to save your boat, and possibly your life, do you think your EP setup would push you for even a couple of hours against 50 to 60 knots of winds and 12 to 15' seas? 20 miles at 4 knots in flat water does not translate to saving your boat in extreme conditions, to me. I could easily run 60 or 100 miles in those conditions secure in the knowledge that I will get where I want to go.
Please don't forget that a diesel requires lubrication, water for cooling, fuel and air to operate, whereas you Honda also requires electricity and a way to transmit the power it produces to the motor. A diesel will run very wet or even immersed in water to a point, but your Honda certainly will not! What is the wattage of your motor? In extreme conditions, would the battery charger from the Honda actually exceed the motor's consumption, or are you losing battery power steadily? If so, what is your actual operating time in adverse conditions?
Don't get me wrong, if I could go to EP I would, but the affordable tech is not here yet that would make this a reality for anything more than a fair weather day sailor, IMO.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

guitarguy56 said:


> MBianka... Good for you and your EP propelled vessel. You have been doing EP for the past 8 years and it has not failed on you... You seem to know your vessel and it's limitations with EP power and it has not deterred you in your quest. Why is it that others that do not have EP power seem to know more that YOU? Why do people who are not doctors here seem to know more than the real doctors? Why do non engineers here seem to know more than DEGREED engineers here? Why do non surveyors here seem to know more than certified surveyors? You get my drift... I think EP is the way to go and battery power/solar generation still have a ways to go as far as innovation with new technologies but I see a day when fossil fuel propulsion is nothing but as ancient as the steam powered engines of the past. Keep posting your threads about EP power as many are eager to hear your next replies.


I think for some it's a unknown technology and feel it can't possibly work on a boat. Though there are examples of it having been used for decades. Back in 2007 when I first began to think about going electric I did have some concerns that others seem to raise here. But, I was willing to make the leap because I had it with working on the diesel in a confined space getting dirty and pulling muscles even while doing routine maintenance let alone more serious repairs. Then paying others to scratch their heads for $$ / hour. Now having used EP for eight years I am comfortable enough to use it anywhere I want to take my boat. I see it's advantages and how it compliments the sails in ways a diesel never could. For some who think they will always need to out slug the sea it will never work then they should stick with the diesel and all the issues that go with it if it gives them comfort. But, I for one am so glad I made the switch and every year that goes by even more so.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Stumble said:


> Bianka is also on a 30' monohull that started life with either a 23hp or 27hp diesel. The OP was asking about a 40' catamaran which would have an assumed twin 40hp diesels. It's a lot easier to build an EP system around needing a peak 17kw than a peak of 60kw.
> 
> Bianka also has a coastal cruiser not a liveaboard cruising boat, which also makes it easier as he returns to the slip most of the time and recharges off of hydro power. Which makes designing an EP system much easier.
> 
> ...


Nicely put. Yeah, I got a kick out of a 2kw genset too (64kw was the number I came up for on my boat, too) .
Thanks.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

capta said:


> I'm not going to argue diesel versus EP. That isn't the point. And it means nothing to say it's a sailboat and one SHOULD sail it. I've got lots of sails and over 50 years of almost full time sailing experience (it is my profession, not my hobby), so for me sailing is the first choice.
> What my point was, in a situation where your engine/motor is your ONLY means to save your boat, and possibly your life, do you think your EP setup would push you for even a couple of hours against 50 to 60 knots of winds and 12 to 15' seas? 20 miles at 4 knots in flat water does not translate to saving your boat in extreme conditions, to me. I could easily run 60 or 100 miles in those conditions secure in the knowledge that I will get where I want to go.
> Please don't forget that a diesel requires lubrication, water for cooling, fuel and air to operate, whereas you Honda also requires electricity and a way to transmit the power it produces to the motor. A diesel will run very wet or even immersed in water to a point, but your Honda certainly will not! What is the wattage of your motor? In extreme conditions, would the battery charger from the Honda actually exceed the motor's consumption, or are you losing battery power steadily? If so, what is your actual operating time in adverse conditions?
> Don't get me wrong, if I could go to EP I would, but the affordable tech is not here yet that would make this a reality for anything more than a fair weather day sailor, IMO.


Lin and Larry Pardy sailed tens of thousands of miles as have others WITHOUT an engine of any kind. Which shows you don't need one to survive. There are also many articles of people having their diesels fail them in rough conditions. Everything from clogged filters, clogged raw water intakes, broken belts to motor mounts breaking unexpectedly. None of which are an issue with EP. My diesel went from perfect operation to no starting in six hours. Just 1900 hours on the meter. A leak in the head gasket sprayed water on the number one cylinder cracking it. That was all she wrote! Could have happened anytime even when you might have needed it most. Looking back my experience is that diesels are not the most dependable item to have on the boat. If it gives you comfort fine but, I'm happier with EP.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

nevetsyad said:


> Dual 30kW motors? Hot damn, you trying to do 40 knots? Can I get a link for the motors you are proposing? Largest for multi-hulls that I can find is 15kW and I believe that's speced for a 60 foot boat.


I'm sorry but my calculations convert 15 kw into 20.115331333hp.
Just how fast were you expecting to get your 60' boat going, pushed by a 20.115331333hp engine?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

mbianka said:


> Lin and Larry Pardy sailed tens of thousands of miles as have others WITHOUT an engine of any kind. Which shows you don't need one to survive. There are also many articles of people having their diesels fail them in rough conditions. Everything from clogged filters, clogged raw water intakes, broken belts to motor mounts breaking unexpectedly. None of which are an issue with EP. My diesel went from perfect operation to no starting in six hours. Just 1900 hours on the meter. A leak in the head gasket sprayed water on the number one cylinder cracking it. That was all she wrote! Could have happened anytime even when you might have needed it most. Looking back my experience is that diesels are not the most dependable item to have on the boat. If it gives you comfort fine but, I'm happier with EP.


Wow, I'm shocked you didn't bring up Donald Street and Columbus as examples of folks who've sailed unpowered boats some.
I really didn't ask about that, did I?
I specifically asked you how far or how long do you think your EP setup would get you against 50 to 60 knots of wind. I didn't ask you if my fuel filters could plug up, did I? I can't help it if you had a bad experience with a diesel for whatever reason, but poor maintenance is usually the culprit there.
No system is flawless, but some are certainly less useful for certain applications than others.
Oh well, have a nice day?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

nevetsyad said:


> Why does everyone want to motor for a week straight?......


You're taking the point too literally.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

mbianka said:


> No I liveaboard for about six months of the year and the boat is either on a mooring or at anchor. Rarely if ever do I tie up to a dock except maybe to refill the water tanks. I have also dragged anchor. Which is not fun when single handed but, the EP system did what I needed to it to do.


Mike,

Thanks for the correction.

As always I am not opposed to electric power. Heck four years ago I converted my Olson 30 to electric power. But it also doesn't mean I think it is a panacea for every situation. Electric work fine when all you need it short range or to liven up a slow light air day. It does not work when you need real range or substantial amounts of power.

Just looking at my usage for the last 12 months an electric drive would work on my Beneteau for all but three days of the year, including about 150 trips in or out of the harbor. So in that sense it would be a great option. The problem is those other three days when I had to motor at relatively high speeds to meet a bridge opening schedule on dead air days. Electric propulsion couldn't have meet the requirements and so an eight hour trip would have turned into at least a two day trip, possibly more.


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## Beav222 (Jan 13, 2016)

nevetsyad said:


> Why does everyone want to motor for a week straight? This is supposed to be a sailing vessel. I want a setup that lets me run full speed for an hour in an emergency, cruise for 8 hours if there's no wind, so I can jump to the next island, or motor-sail for days on end with very little engine power being used.
> 
> Oh, the J/88 Oceanvolt can already do that. (Can't post a link, too few postings)
> 
> ...


Very well put I'm building a 40' cat and it only weighs 13 k and the designer only specs out two 9.9 yammies. I think the equivalent EP is 2/3s of that. Not a 40 hp dead weight. 
I am looking for a small ICE to power a gen on one side and a dive compressor on the other with clutches so I don't have to run one ir the other if I don't have to. The goal is to sail free for as long as possible. 
BTW it's obvious who the diesel salesmen are and I think their worried! 
Just sayin !!!!!


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

Beav222 said:


> Very well put I'm building a 40' cat and it only weighs 13 k and the designer only specs out two 9.9 yammies. I think the equivalent EP is 2/3s of that. Not a 40 hp dead weight.
> I am looking for a small ICE to power a gen on one side and a dive compressor on the other with clutches so I don't have to run one ir the other if I don't have to. The goal is to sail free for as long as possible.
> BTW it's obvious who the diesel salesmen are and I think their worried!
> Just sayin !!!!!


Look up the Elco EP 14. It will replace a 14HP diesel engine, two of those and the max draw you'll see is around 12kW. A used Nissan Leaf Lithium Ion battery will run them for over an hour at WOT.

For those that have said they need 40HP engines replaced on a 40 foot boat for some reason, please look at the Elco EP-40. The recommended generator install for two of them, per the manufacture, is 10-24kWs. This 60kW gen set talk is insane. This generator will run them without any batteries. They'll pull about 30kW at WOT, so a 10kW generator and 20kW of batteries, I think that's 12 or so, at 40LBs each, will push you at hull speed for an hour. Cruising speed is usually a fraction of WOT for electric motors, so you'd have a day of slow motoring, without using diesel, if there's no wind and no emergency.

Check out the Elco line of motors. Plus OceanVolt. Hunter builds a nice little hybrid you can read about, and the J/88 electric has some nice stats worth reading about also. Duplicate its setup on a multi-hull and you'd be very happy - lots of space for solar on a cat.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Beav222 said:


> Very well put I'm building a 40' cat and it only weighs 13 k and the designer only specs out two 9.9 yammies. I think the equivalent EP is 2/3s of that. Not a 40 hp dead weight.
> I am looking for a small ICE to power a gen on one side and a dive compressor on the other with clutches so I don't have to run one ir the other if I don't have to. The goal is to sail free for as long as possible.
> BTW it's obvious who the diesel salesmen are and I think their worried!
> Just sayin !!!!!


Then I am curious who your designer is, because I am not familure with any cat that heavy with that little HP.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Stumble said:


> Mike,
> 
> Thanks for the correction.
> 
> ...


Yes it's the gotta gotta scenario that most people worry about. Though since I recently retired schedules take a back seat in my plans these days.  Though IMO the flexibility of EP systems allows for easy expansion in cases like you mentioned. I'm thinking I could easily temporarily add another Honda 2000 into the mix if I really felt the need for more speed say for an ICW trip if schedules were that much of a concern. Though I really feel I probably could get by with just the single genny. I took my boat up to Canada via the Hudson River, Erie and Oswego Canals about twelve years ago. I'd love to do it with EP. The Canal portion of the trip would be much quieter with less vibration and cooler too. I had to dive under the boat several times on that trip to clear reeds that got sucked into the intake causing the engine to overheat. With my EP system there is no longer a raw water intake. :wink

I'm also planning on adding a new battery charger/power supply this upcoming season that will add another 10 amps to my hybrid operating current using my current Honda 2000. Should give me a nice bump in speed. Next year I may fiddle with a new prop. Not because I really need to but, EP can be boring since I have a lot less maintenance to do. So I start thinking about fiddling around with optimization. Then there is always the idea of converting to Lithium but, since the AGM's are still going strong and the price of Lithium is still pretty high there is really no rush on my part. Also one of the reasons I went with the AGM's when I did the conversion was a "what if" scenario of traveling down the ICW and having a battery go bad. My AGM could probably be replaced in 24 hours locally was my thinking. Though after eight years I'm finding the batteries are still holding up very well.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

If you can't pull all the power available from the 2kw into the batteries then a bigger battery charger maybe a great idea. My only thought would be to make sure the max draw of the charger stays within the continuious rating of the generator (I think it's 1.6kw). 

On the prop I think what you really need is a larger prop to convert that low rpm torque, but without going to a new, longer prop shaft I doubt there is room. The upside is it would push the prop closer to the rudder so low speed maneuverability would be better. The downside is it would almost demand a feathering prop to reduce drag. But I would be really concerned you could spend a lot of money and work to accomplish very little.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

capta said:


> Wow, I'm shocked you didn't bring up Donald Street and Columbus as examples of folks who've sailed unpowered boats some.
> I really didn't ask about that, did I?
> I specifically asked you how far or how long do you think your EP setup would get you against 50 to 60 knots of wind. I didn't ask you if my fuel filters could plug up, did I? I can't help it if you had a bad experience with a diesel for whatever reason, but poor maintenance is usually the culprit there.
> No system is flawless, but some are certainly less useful for certain applications than others.
> Oh well, have a nice day?


The short answer is I would not. I doubt any prudent mariner would. Pounding into 50 to 60 knot winds for hours sounds like a good way to break something and turn it into a real bad day. I do take the inscription at the navel academy to heart: 
_"You can't out slug the ocean but, you can out think it"_
I'd set up some storm tactics and try and make the boat and crew as comfortable as possible until things settle down. Pounding into 50 to 60 knot winds is just asking for trouble IMO.

Glad you like your diesel I liked mine for ten years too. Until one day poof! Despite the routine maintenance and parts replaced over the years. Just glad it failed at the end of the season so I had time to explore other alternatives like EP before I put too much money back into it. EP works for me and never once did I wish to have a diesel back on board.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Stumble said:


> If you can't pull all the power available from the 2kw into the batteries then a bigger battery charger maybe a great idea. My only thought would be to make sure the max draw of the charger stays within the continuious rating of the generator (I think it's 1.6kw).
> 
> On the prop I think what you really need is a larger prop to convert that low rpm torque, but without going to a new, longer prop shaft I doubt there is room. The upside is it would push the prop closer to the rudder so low speed maneuverability would be better. The downside is it would almost demand a feathering prop to reduce drag. But I would be really concerned you could spend a lot of money and work to accomplish very little.


You are absolutely right about staying under the 1.6 kw rating. The new supply I plan on installing will do that. My current charger/supply is 900 watts the new one will be 1500. It will also speed up charging when needed. Of course if Honda ever comes up with a new improved Honda 2000+ generator I'll be lining up for that too. I think they are due for an up grade.

I'm very happy with my current prop but, I will be discussing a new prop with an EP company that has done some of the calculations for props for EP. I figured I've saved enough money over the years with EP not having to do changes of oil, filters, impellers and winterizing I can invest in a new prop.  I'm not worried about feathering since I usually use minimal power to turn prop to negate any prop drag when sailing anyway.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

mbianka said:


> The short answer is I would not. I doubt any prudent mariner would. Pounding into 50 to 60 knot winds for hours sounds like a good way to break something and turn it into a real bad day. I do take the inscription at the navel academy to heart:
> _"You can't out slug the ocean but, you can out think it"_
> I'd set up some storm tactics and try and make the boat and crew as comfortable as possible until things settle down. Pounding into 50 to 60 knot winds is just asking for trouble IMO.
> 
> Glad you like your diesel I liked mine for ten years too. Until one day poof! Despite the routine maintenance and parts replaced over the years. Just glad it failed at the end of the season so I had time to explore other alternatives like EP before I put too much money back into it. EP works for me and never once did I wish to have a diesel back on board.


So it is the imprudent mariner who saves his vessel by keeping her bow to wind and under control for hours in those conditions, under power? Perhaps relieving the pressure on the anchor in 8 to 10 foot breaking seas, or keeping her under control after you have jettisoned your anchor tackle because another vessel has dragged down on you and is destroying your boat. Either way, exactly how do you OUT THINK an unforecasted 60 knot squall that turns a leeward anchorage into a windward one at 3AM? Please, inquiring minds want to know.
Why won't you answer the question? It's an easy enough question. If the caca hits the fan and YOU, not the Pardeys or Columbus or Don Street had to save YOUR vessel and her crew, would your EP setup do the job, or would you be begging a bunch of other folks to risk their lives to come save you?
There is NOTHING imprudent about a mariner saving his vessel, crew and himself without asking others to risk their lives to do so for him, IMO.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I have no doubt that one could make EP work just fine, when sailing on the Hudson or doing near coastal hops in predictable weather conditions. But, they are just that, short and predictable. 

Cruising is going to put the crew and the boat in another paradigm. The idea of having no schedule, only applies when you're tied to the dock or in a hurricane hole. Once you leave, there are plenty of reasons to need to move along: outrunning a squall or at least positioning for the least of it, making landfall before your water runs out (especially if some leaked during the trip), a sick or injured passenger, a major incoming frontal system, etc. You may have even blown out a sail. 

There are advantages and disadvantages to both diesel and EP and either may suit one's particular use better. The entire reason that carbon based fuels have been around so long is their dense potential energy. I store enough liquid energy in a 2.5ft cube to move the boat for days on end (if necessary). EP has not replicated it yet. Maybe one day.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

capta said:


> So it is the imprudent mariner who saves his vessel by keeping her bow to wind and under control for hours in those conditions, under power? Perhaps relieving the pressure on the anchor in 8 to 10 foot breaking seas, or keeping her under control after you have jettisoned your anchor tackle because another vessel has dragged down on you and is destroying your boat. Either way, exactly how do you OUT THINK an unforecasted 60 knot squall that turns a leeward anchorage into a windward one at 3AM? Please, inquiring minds want to know.
> Why won't you answer the question? It's an easy enough question. If the caca hits the fan and YOU, not the Pardeys or Columbus or Don Street had to save YOUR vessel and her crew, would your EP setup do the job, or would you be begging a bunch of other folks to risk their lives to come save you?
> There is NOTHING imprudent about a mariner saving his vessel, crew and himself without asking others to risk their lives to do so for him, IMO.


I certainly won't be begging for someone to come and save me either. Yours is really a hypothetical question and one that can really only be answered when one is in that situation. But, yes I do feel my EP system will get me out of trouble when I need it. Running for hours into a 50 knot headwind on battery alone no. Being able to relieve tension on the anchor yes. Certainly long enough to deploy one of my backup anchors in the situation you describe. I have been in a situation where I had to buck 40 knot headwinds to pickup a mooring at night in a crowded anchorage. I was single handed and it took a half hour and a few passes to accomplish the task but, the EP system was up to the task. BTW those same winds had topped up my battery bank by morning thanks to having the wind generator. Did not even have to fire up the generator.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> I have no doubt that one could make EP work just fine, when sailing on the Hudson or doing near coastal hops in predictable weather conditions. But, they are just that, short and predictable.
> 
> Cruising is going to put the crew and the boat in another paradigm. The idea of having no schedule, only applies when you're tied to the dock or in a hurricane hole. Once you leave, there are plenty of reasons to need to move along: outrunning a squall or at least positioning for the least of it, making landfall before your water runs out (especially if some leaked during the trip), a sick or injured passenger, a major incoming frontal system, etc. You may have even blown out a sail.
> 
> There are advantages and disadvantages to both diesel and EP and either may suit one's particular use better. The entire reason that carbon based fuels have been around so long is their dense potential energy. I store enough liquid energy in a 2.5ft cube to move the boat for days on end (if necessary). EP has not replicated it yet. Maybe one day.


I agree there is a lot of energy stored in fossil fuels. It's why I also carry the Honda 2000 for electro sailing and charging and other uses. For me it's the best of both worlds. The surprise for me is how little I really need to fire up the generator. Though other technologies are starting to come together too. Though I had thought Lithium batteries would have come down in cost much more by now. Things like solar sails which UK Sails is working on will really kick things up. I plan on adding some additional solar panels this year too since they have really come down in price. One of the things I love about EP is the ease of upgrading.


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> I have no doubt that one could make EP work just fine, when sailing on the Hudson or doing near coastal hops in predictable weather conditions. But, they are just that, short and predictable.
> 
> Cruising is going to put the crew and the boat in another paradigm. The idea of having no schedule, only applies when you're tied to the dock or in a hurricane hole. Once you leave, there are plenty of reasons to need to move along: outrunning a squall or at least positioning for the least of it, making landfall before your water runs out (especially if some leaked during the trip), a sick or injured passenger, a major incoming frontal system, etc. You may have even blown out a sail.
> 
> There are advantages and disadvantages to both diesel and EP and either may suit one's particular use better. The entire reason that carbon based fuels have been around so long is their dense potential energy. I store enough liquid energy in a 2.5ft cube to move the boat for days on end (if necessary). EP has not replicated it yet. Maybe one day.


Obviously that 2.5ft cube can run the boat for days and a pure EP setup cannot. But an EP setup can regen "fuel" overnight with a wind generator, like Bianka experienced. It can refuel while sailing when the prop spins. It can refuel on a calm, windless, sunny day, with solar. For long term self sufficiency, I like EP, hence loving it for island hopping and hanging out in coves for weeks or months on end without returning for fuel. For multi-day sprints at WOT, no, obviously it's not there yet. But I'd argue EP can do a lot of self sufficient cruises that diesel cannot.

A hybrid EP setup can run for days, and more efficiently than a pure diesel. That's why large ships use it.


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

mbianka said:


> I agree there is a lot of energy stored in fossil fuels. It's why I also carry the Honda 2000 for electro sailing and charging and other uses. For me it's the best of both worlds. The surprise for me is how little I really need to fire up the generator. Though other technologies are starting to come together too. Though I had thought Lithium batteries would have come down in cost much more by now. Things like solar sails which UK Sails is working on will really kick things up. I plan on adding some additional solar panels this year too since they have really come down in price. One of the things I love about EP is the ease of upgrading.


It is amazing that consumer Lithium batteries are still around 1 grand a kWh. Car companies are down to $150-200/kWh. I can't wait for this to filter down to us. Or at the very least, for a ton of 20-30kWh Leaf battery packs to show up in junk yards. Soon electric cars will all be 50kWh and larger packs, market should be flooded for smaller packs, new even. Hopefully I can start my EP boat build while those are still out.

Are the UK solar sails still excessively expensive, or have they come down in price? I was hoping to find a small sailing cat in the DC are that I could cover the roof with solar on, but the 1kW of solar in a sail would be a nice alternative...as long as it isn't $10,000.

Big fan of yours Bianka, I used to read your blog daily when I first got into sailing. You're living my dream!


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

capta said:


> Either way, exactly how do you OUT THINK an unforecasted 60 knot squall that turns a leeward anchorage into a windward one at 3AM? Please, inquiring minds want to know.
> Why won't you answer the question? It's an easy enough question. If the caca hits the fan and YOU, not the Pardeys or Columbus or Don Street had to save YOUR vessel and her crew, would your EP setup do the job, or would you be begging a bunch of other folks to risk their lives to come save you?
> There is NOTHING imprudent about a mariner saving his vessel, crew and himself without asking others to risk their lives to do so for him, IMO.


So Capta I assume if you or anyone else in those conditions and your engine quit or malfunctioned you wouldn't be calling the Coast Guard to save your vessels? I surely think you would and it is silly to think anyone with EP powered in the same conditions would not call the CG. Not the best of comparisons... I think.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

guitarguy56 said:


> So Capta I assume if you or anyone else in those conditions and your engine quit or malfunctioned you wouldn't be calling the Coast Guard to save your vessels? I surely think you would and it is silly to think anyone with EP powered in the same conditions would not call the CG. Not the best of comparisons... I think.


Again, you are missing the point. I have hundreds of hours of energy for my motive power in my tanks. Hundreds. We aren't talking about a malfunction here, we are talking about the duration of the motive power needed to extricate a vessel from dire circumstances. Even in a less extreme situation, say 40 to 50 knots and 6 to 8' seas, I believe EP for a small craft is not up to the task, yet.


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

capta said:


> Again, you are missing the point. I have hundreds of hours of energy for my motive power in my tanks. Hundreds. We aren't talking about a malfunction here, we are talking about the duration of the motive power needed to extricate a vessel from dire circumstances. Even in a less extreme situation, say 40 to 50 knots and 6 to 8' seas, I believe EP for a small craft is not up to the task, yet.


EP has the same HP and even more torque. It's ready to go at the push of the throttle, and many manufactured hybrid systems automatically turn on the generator when the battery gets to a certain level. It can push against the wind all night, with the generator cycling off and on as needed. It will last much longer than your diesel only engine.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

mbianka said:


> Being able to relieve tension on the anchor yes. Certainly long enough to deploy one of my backup anchors in the situation you describe.


Thank you for the answer to my question. I'll only point out that were the situation we are describing happen when you were single handing, I don't think you would be able to leave the helm to set a second anchor, so run time would again come into the picture.
Again, don't get me wrong. I'd love to find a way to have any alternative power on my boat. I've even looked into Hydrogen power as I have a real engine room, so I have the space for a generator to produce the hydrogen.
So far the tech just isn't there for my application (or budget).


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

Elco Inboard Electric Motor EP-2000 | Elco Motor Yachts

~400-550 miles on a 30 gallon tank when operating in hybrid mode. My smaller Yanmar couldn't make it 150 miles on that much fuel. I'll take the hybrid for a long run, over a classic stinkpot.


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

I've had to change a failed impeller while underway (yes, I replace them often and maintain my engine, but some times you just get a bad part), my inexperienced assistant tried to hold a course to get us out of shipping lanes while I was down stairs getting beat up in my little engine compartment. That alone makes me want to go EP for my next boat.

What if it had happened while under 50 knot winds at 3AM, while dragging anchor? My engine would have overheated at WOT pushing into the winds, and be junk within minutes. Then the boat would be laying on her side on a beach by morning.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

nevetsyad said:


> Elco Inboard Electric Motor EP-2000 | Elco Motor Yachts
> 
> ~400-550 miles on a 30 gallon tank when operating in hybrid mode. My smaller Yanmar couldn't make it 150 miles on that much fuel. I'll take the hybrid for a long run, over a classic stinkpot.


Not to be rude here, but when has your car ever gotten the advertised mpg city?
All these stats are in ideal conditions, not real world.
I have 86 hp on my 50 footer. Do you think 20 hp would be satisfactory on a 40 footer?
And 6 8D batteries just for motive power? Even I'd have trouble finding a place for those plus my house bank! That's over 1000# of motive power batteries alone! More than my 86 hp Perkins w/trany.


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

capta said:


> Not to be rude here, but when has your car ever gotten the advertised mpg city?
> All these stats are in ideal conditions, not real world.
> I have 86 hp on my 50 footer. Do you think 20 hp would be satisfactory on a 40 footer?


My electric car is rated for 128MPGe in the city, but I usually get far more than that. I drive it in high regen mode and pre-heat/cool the cabin before launch. I get about 15% more range than the EPA/manufacture say I'm supposed to get.

Elco EP-10000 Electric & Hybrid Electric Inboard Motors

EP-100 is rated for boats larger than yours, but it should get you nearly 600 miles on 125 gallons of dino juice. Hopefully you're sailing a lot of that and regening "fuel", plus solar and wind. Save that 600 mile range for emergencies.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Capta

I think the displacement of your 50 foot vessel is on the large size and used in a manner that makes EP cost prohibitive and unsuitable to your needs. 

Most sailboats diesel engines have shorten lives by being run for short periods of time and or have poor maintenance. The SOP of the majority of coastal sailors EP makes a lot more sense over long term ownership with maintenance and fuel cost considered. It is not for everyone. All boats have trade offs and we all have to take our crafts capabilities into our decision making process. I have a hard time believing that a knowledgeable, and experience sailor could not sail the Caribbean with a EP. It has been sailed in canoes, open boats, and many craft with out engines. With today's access to weather, charts, AIS etc a captain can make prudent decision that considers their vessels strengths and weaknesses. Just as a 30 foot vessel with 4 foot draft will need to access their circumstance different from a 50 foot vessel with 7 foot draft. Many sub 15-20 K displacement and smaller craft can run for hundreds of hours assisted with a small genset for back up. 

One problem I don't think has been addressed here is the cost of having 48 VDC bank vs a 12 VDC. Don't most of these motors need a 48 VDC bank to supply the juice? That makes the battery cost significantly more expensive. IMHO a 12 VDC LiPoFe Prismatic still makes lots of sense for a house bank.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Not cheap but not ridiculous ELCO EP 10000 looks like it would work for larger vessels. That is interesting. The numbers are little inflated but workable.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

In case anyone is interested in my road experience with an EV....

Two years with a Nissan Leaf, drive it daily with a wide range of discharge rates. Charge almost every day to 100% overnight on 110v, occasional 220v and a few 440v supercharges. According to my hack app I have 91% of original battery capacity remaining.

My daily commute is short, but my days off I do get around a bit.


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

RobGallagher said:


> In case anyone is interested in my road experience with an EV....
> 
> Two years with a Nissan Leaf, drive it daily with a wide range of discharge rates. Charge almost every day to 100% overnight on 110v, occasional 220v and a few 440v supercharges. According to my hack app I have 91% of original battery capacity remaining.
> 
> My daily commute is short, but my days off I do get around a bit.


You've lost 9% already?!? I know electric motorcycles that are 4 years old, have 70K miles and have lost only a percent or two. Is your pack not climate controlled?


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

RobGallagher said:


> In case anyone is interested in my road experience with an EV....
> 
> Two years with a Nissan Leaf, drive it daily with a wide range of discharge rates. Charge almost every day to 100% overnight on 110v, occasional 220v and a few 440v supercharges. According to my hack app I have 91% of original battery capacity remaining.
> 
> My daily commute is short, but my days off I do get around a bit.


This is almost exactly the problem. The use profile for an electric car is really just to sit still most of the time. So long as the use of your boat is similar then an electric may work. But cruisers simply don't. A duration cruiser very well may be underway for days at a time at a steady speed. For instance, my last delivery was 550nm in glass smooth water. It took a little over 75 hours running the diesel the whole way.

I burned more fuel on that one trip than I will in my boat in two years. Or not too long ago when I spent days bashing into a 30kn breeze with short steep chop to get a boat to Pensacola. With the sails alone we were making about 1.7kn towards the destination on a Columbia 50, turned on the engine and made the rest of the trip making 5kn good.

The need of a cruising boat is far more like that of a long haul trucker than a car for commuting.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

nevetsyad said:


> Obviously that 2.5ft cube can run the boat for days and a pure EP setup cannot. But an EP setup can regen "fuel" overnight with a wind generator, like Bianka experienced. It can refuel while sailing when the prop spins. It can refuel on a calm, windless, sunny day, with solar. For long term self sufficiency, I like EP, hence loving it for island hopping and hanging out in coves for weeks or months on end without returning for fuel. For multi-day sprints at WOT, no, obviously it's not there yet. But I'd argue EP can do a lot of self sufficient cruises that diesel cannot.
> 
> A hybrid EP setup can run for days, and more efficiently than a pure diesel. That's why large ships use it.


There is so much wrong here it almost must be deliberate no one can really be this wrong without trying.

First large ships do not use EP. Cargo ships almost exclusively use slow turning diesels (really bunker fuel). There are some special cases like LNG ships that use LNG or ice breakers, but about 99% of all cargo is moved by Diesel engines. The only large ships that use DE routinely are cruise ships, and that's because their hotel loads are massive compared to their propulsion loads. By switching to DE they can cycle generators on and off as the hotel loads vary during the day. It is also far quicker to turn on a generator than a big diesel, that may require eight hours to turn on.

Secondly, big vessels with large propulsion demands cannot rely on solar or wind to provide propulsive needs. Any wind generator capable of making meaningful power simply cannot be mounted on a boat.

Frankly Neve until you start backing up your unsubstantiated nonsense with real numbers I am tired of engaging with you. You are trolling a conversation about which you know nothing, but are positive you are right regardless of the facts.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Stumble said:


> This is almost exactly the problem. The use profile for an electric car is really just to sit still most of the time. So long as the use of your boat is similar then an electric may work. But cruisers simply don't. A duration cruiser very well may be underway for days at a time at a steady speed. For instance, my last delivery was 550nm in glass smooth water. It took a little over 75 hours running the diesel the whole way.
> 
> I burned more fuel on that one trip than I will in my boat in two years. Or not too long ago when I spent days bashing into a 30kn breeze with short steep chop to get a boat to Pensacola. With the sails alone we were making about 1.7kn towards the destination on a Columbia 50, turned on the engine and made the rest of the trip making 5kn good.
> 
> The need of a cruising boat is far more like that of a long haul trucker than a car for commuting.


What if you could use EP for all the short duration typical engine use, but back up genset for extended range. Seams from a maintenance stand point alone it is KISS if EP and Lithium batteries can be KISS. Short run times and poor maintenance kill most engines. Genset depending on size etc can be smaller and more maintenance friendly, replaceable, and backup able. From what I understand for lower displacement easily driven hulls EP makes lots of sense. Depending on how one chooses to utilizes the attributes of any vessel in the seas they forge. Weight reduction is good for all sailing craft.

As defined there appears to be some EP design issues with this particular 40 foot cat. Is this a Wharram design? James has some very beautiful cruising Catamaran. Good luck I hope you love building boats and love the process. If you do love the process it will surly be worth it. You will figure out the EP design long before you reach the point in the build where modification are needed. Unless you have a pretty good team, mad skill, or deep pockets.


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

Stumble said:


> nevetsyad said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously that 2.5ft cube can run the boat for days and a pure EP setup cannot. But an EP setup can regen "fuel" overnight with a wind generator, like Bianka experienced. It can refuel while sailing when the prop spins. It can refuel on a calm, windless, sunny day, with solar. For long term self sufficiency, I like EP, hence loving it for island hopping and hanging out in coves for weeks or months on end without returning for fuel. For multi-day sprints at WOT, no, obviously it's not there yet. But I'd argue EP can do a lot of self sufficient cruises that diesel cannot.
> ...


A little cruise line called, the British Navy use hybrids. The US Navy is in the progress of converting. Cruise ships do it as you mentioned. A few cargo ships are hybrid diesel/electric. There are plans for hybrid cargo ships that will be built soon.

http://news.usni.org/2015/09/23/nav...c-drives-in-destroyer-fleet-staring-next-year

Did you read the Elco links? Each motor speaks on boat size, battery bank size and a suggested hybrid setup. With ranges in several hundred miles on each tank of gas. I don't understand, do you think that I'm suggesting wind and solar for cargo ships? I'm simply suggesting that one could hop around islands, run AC, sail, collect wind and sun, and not burn oil for months on end in the right rig.


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## uncle stinky bob (Feb 28, 2016)

nevetsyad said:


> Elco Inboard Electric Motor EP-2000 | Elco Motor Yachts
> 
> ~400-550 miles on a 30 gallon tank when operating in hybrid mode. My smaller Yanmar couldn't make it 150 miles on that much fuel. I'll take the hybrid for a long run, over a classic stinkpot.


Really? you had a small Yanmar that could not go 150 mile's on 30 gallons of diesel? Was it a heavy boat and underpowered?


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## uncle stinky bob (Feb 28, 2016)

nevetsyad said:


> A little cruise line called, the British Navy use hybrids. The US Navy is in the progress of converting. Cruise ships do it as you mentioned. A few cargo ships are hybrid diesel/electric. There are plans for hybrid cargo ships that will be built soon.
> 
> *Navy Set to Install Hybrid Electric Drives in Destroyer Fleet Staring Next Year - USNI News
> 
> Did you read the Elco links? Each motor speaks on boat size, battery bank size and a suggested hybrid setup. With ranges in several hundred miles on each tank of gas. I don't understand, do you think that I'm suggesting wind and solar for cargo ships? I'm simply suggesting that one could hop around islands, run AC, sail, collect wind and sun, and not burn oil for months on end in the right rig.


and large semi trucks run diesel engines but to compare the needs of a semi and a sailboat sounds rather silly, right?


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

uncle stinky bob said:


> nevetsyad said:
> 
> 
> > Elco Inboard Electric Motor EP-2000 | Elco Motor Yachts
> ...


My bad, doing quick posts while at work. I believe I should have said 300 miles. Still much less than a hybrid with a much larger boat on the same amount of fuel.


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

uncle stinky bob said:


> nevetsyad said:
> 
> 
> > A little cruise line called, the British Navy use hybrids. The US Navy is in the progress of converting. Cruise ships do it as you mentioned. A few cargo ships are hybrid diesel/electric. There are plans for hybrid cargo ships that will be built soon.
> ...


I don't plan on retiring to a semi truck, so yes, completely silly. I'm not suggesting someone motor 600 miles over a week, running 24/7 off of sunshine, windmills and unicorn magic. Just that you can comfortably sit at anchor, move 10-30 miles a few days later, chill there and repeat. All without fuel. If you're at the south end of the island chain and need to motor back to Florida a few hundred miles for an emergency, fire up a 10kW generator and go for it. Or dock and fly back for a week. I'd fly.


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

Or, and I know this controversial, but sail the damn boat back. People forget that it's an auxiliary motor, not the primary means of propulsion.


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## uncle stinky bob (Feb 28, 2016)

nevetsyad said:


> I don't plan on retiring to a semi truck, so yes, completely silly. I'm not suggesting someone motor 600 miles over a week, running 24/7 off of sunshine, windmills and unicorn magic. Just that you can comfortably sit at anchor, move 10-30 miles a few days later, chill there and repeat. All without fuel. If you're at the south end of the island chain and need to motor back to Florida a few hundred miles for an emergency, fire up a 10kW generator and go for it. Or dock and fly back for a week. I'd fly.


I get ya, it's just that the comparison of the operational requirements of a war ship to the requirements of a sailboat is sillier. 
I know that EP is perfect for some people, but it has not and will not meet the needs of the majority of cruiser's. Not with present tech, I also acknowledge that if it weren't for the folks that are using, adapting and providing the market to promote continued tech advancements/research in EP, it will never advance to the point that it's viable as a replacement for the majority. For a guy like me, diesel in a small engine is the only thing that makes sense. But when EP can match it........I'll be driving a voltboat!


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

uncle stinky bob said:


> nevetsyad said:
> 
> 
> > I don't plan on retiring to a semi truck, so yes, completely silly. I'm not suggesting someone motor 600 miles over a week, running 24/7 off of sunshine, windmills and unicorn magic. Just that you can comfortably sit at anchor, move 10-30 miles a few days later, chill there and repeat. All without fuel. If you're at the south end of the island chain and need to motor back to Florida a few hundred miles for an emergency, fire up a 10kW generator and go for it. Or dock and fly back for a week. I'd fly.
> ...


I stated that large ships were using it and I was told I know nothing on the subject, only cruise ships use it and it's because they need a lot of electricity anyways. Yes, small and mid size ships, it may not be very prevalent with, yet. Cargo ships will be next in a decade or so.

There just isn't enough money/interest for a volt boat I don't believe. Not until cell density doubles again (at least) and prices are cut in half yet again. More efficient motors would be great also. Charging would be a big concern once an EP boat can cruise for a few days. How do you put 50kWh (or more) into a boat at a marina? Super efficient solar cells maybe? I'm fine with a wind/solar/hydro recharge, I don't plan on being in much of a hurry when I retire.

I think it's the electric car industry that's going to get EP boats to 90% of what's needed. I don't think the Elcos or Oceanvolts are doing much besides engineering off the shelf gear into a marine solution.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

capta said:


> Thank you for the answer to my question. I'll only point out that were the situation we are describing happen when you were single handing, I don't think you would be able to leave the helm to set a second anchor, so run time would again come into the picture.
> Again, don't get me wrong. I'd love to find a way to have any alternative power on my boat. I've even looked into Hydrogen power as I have a real engine room, so I have the space for a generator to produce the hydrogen.
> So far the tech just isn't there for my application (or budget).


Yeah, I agree your vessel is probably a little large for an EP conversion at this time. When I converted in 2008 I had no real examples of boats my size that had done the conversion to follow so it was a leap of faith which for me has turned out to be one of the best improvements I have made on board. Now there are more boats that have converted and a lot more companies out there offering systems. In addition to DIY folks putting together their own systems. Still a small percentage of the boats out there but, growing.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Waterrat said:


> What if you could use EP for all the short duration typical engine use, but back up genset for extended range. Seams from a maintenance stand point alone it is KISS if EP and Lithium batteries can be KISS. Short run times and poor maintenance kill most engines. Genset depending on size etc can be smaller and more maintenance friendly, replaceable, and backup able. From what I understand for lower displacement easily driven hulls EP makes lots of sense. Depending on how one chooses to utilizes the attributes of any vessel in the seas they forge. Weight reduction is good for all sailing craft.
> 
> As defined there appears to be some EP design issues with this particular 40 foot cat. Is this a Wharram design? James has some very beautiful cruising Catamaran. Good luck I hope you love building boats and love the process. If you do love the process it will surly be worth it. You will figure out the EP design long before you reach the point in the build where modification are needed. Unless you have a pretty good team, mad skill, or deep pockets.


Yep that's one advantage of an EP install especially on smaller boats. You can locate things like a generator in a location where it is most easily accessed for maintenance and service. One of the things that was a PITA on my diesel engine was having to change the impeller pretty much blind because of where it was located on the engine and where the Vdrive transmission had to be located. With EP only the motor needs to be located near the prop shaft. I made sure everything else associated with my system was located in places easily accessed by my 6' 2" frame.


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## uncle stinky bob (Feb 28, 2016)

nevetsyad said:


> I stated that large ships were using it and I was told I know nothing on the subject, only cruise ships use it and it's because they need a lot of electricity anyways. Yes, small and mid size ships, it may not be very prevalent with, yet. Cargo ships will be next in a decade or so.
> 
> There just isn't enough money/interest for a volt boat I don't believe. Not until cell density doubles again (at least) and prices are cut in half yet again. More efficient motors would be great also. Charging would be a big concern once an EP boat can cruise for a few days. How do you put 50kWh (or more) into a boat at a marina? Super efficient solar cells maybe? I'm fine with a wind/solar/hydro recharge, I don't plan on being in much of a hurry when I retire.
> 
> I think it's the electric car industry that's going to get EP boats to 90% of what's needed. I don't think the Elcos or Oceanvolts are doing much besides engineering off the shelf gear into a marine solution.


Agree 100%. Cargo shipping is moving rapidly toward EP and for good reason. Check links. For me it's about, #1 cost. #2.weight. #3 is simplicity. another thought is safety, the more electrical systems on board, the bigger the potential for electrical fire. 
inhabitat.com/auriga-leader-cargo-ship-gets-power-from-solar-panels/

Then there is this, just cool I think. A new take on an old idea.
B9 Shipping developing 100 percent fossil fuel-free cargo sailing ships


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## uncle stinky bob (Feb 28, 2016)

fist link didn't post, trying again.
inhabitat.com/auriga-leader-cargo-ship-gets-power-from-solar-panels/

Still not posting link. Search NYK Line. Electric cargo ship. if interested.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

nevetsyad said:


> My electric car is rated for 128MPGe in the city, but I usually get far more than that. I drive it in high regen mode and pre-heat/cool the cabin before launch. I get about 15% more range than the EPA/manufacture say I'm supposed to get.
> 
> Elco EP-10000 Electric & Hybrid Electric Inboard Motors
> 
> EP-100 is rated for boats larger than yours, but it should get you nearly 600 miles on 125 gallons of dino juice. Hopefully you're sailing a lot of that and regening "fuel", plus solar and wind. Save that 600 mile range for emergencies.


That's pretty impressive for electric, but I was actually talking about that XXX city mpg and XXX highway mpg that they had on cars five years ago or more. I haven't seen any adds for cars so I'm not sure what they use now.
As for 600 miles on 125 gallons, I'd get something over 800 in calm conditions, so I'm not sure of your point there.
Worst case for me was San Juan to Charleston; 8 days under power without a ripple on the water. Shut down 1 hour a day to check fluids and get a break from the noise.
Best case; 2500 miles of inter island sailing (almost all day sailing, few over nights) on less than 20 hours of engine run time, one year.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> What if you could use EP for all the short duration typical engine use, but back up genset for extended range. Seams from a maintenance stand point alone it is KISS if EP and Lithium batteries can be KISS. Short run times and poor maintenance kill most engines. Genset depending on size etc can be smaller and more maintenance friendly, replaceable, and backup able. From what I understand for lower displacement easily driven hulls EP makes lots of sense. Depending on how one chooses to utilizes the attributes of any vessel in the seas they forge. Weight reduction is good for all sailing craft.
> 
> As defined there appears to be some EP design issues with this particular 40 foot cat. Is this a Wharram design? James has some very beautiful cruising Catamaran. Good luck I hope you love building boats and love the process. If you do love the process it will surly be worth it. You will figure out the EP design long before you reach the point in the build where modification are needed. Unless you have a pretty good team, mad skill, or deep pockets.


It is possible to use batteries with a backup generator for extended range. This is exactly what Mbianka is doing. The problem is that as vessel size increases propulsion demands increase far faster than typical hotel loads. So the size of the generator has to increase substantially in order to provide meaningful amounts of power.

So if you go from a 30' 10,000lbs boat you go from a cruising propulsion demand of say 6kw, to a 40' 18,000lbs boat that cruises at about 20kw. Because batteries are so terrible at storing power you simply can't add enough batteries to a vessel to allow for a reasonable cruising speed for very long, so the generator needs to be large enough to provide propulsion power without relying on the batteries.

Just as an example, a very large cruising battery bank would top out at around 1,000 amp*hr. This is a pretty massive battery bank for a 40' cruising boat... Now let's ignore Peukerts because we are going to use lifepo batteries.

1,000amp bank * 12.8v (lithium) = 12.8kw

So this huge battery bank is large enough to power our hypothetical 40' cruiser at a normal cruising speed for about 40 minutes.

Of course at this point we turn on our generator... But how big is our generator anyway? Well on our 38' Beneteau we can run both AC's with a 6kw generator so let's assume this is a reasonable size gen for this size boat. Even if we started the generator before turning on the motors, at best we can stretch our cruising speed out to just shy of an hour. But then we have to run the generator for at least two hours after turning off the motor to recharge the batteries.

So for an hour of motoring we have had to run our generator for three hours, burned about the same amount of fuel as if we had used a large propulsion diesel anyway, but had to listen to the generator for three hours instead of the engine for an hour.

So what happens if we slow down our cruising speed to just what the generator will provide? Honestly I have no idea. My engines dead idle speed still produces about 12kw and pushes the boat at about 3.5kn, so I would assume that with just 6kw the speed would be a good bit less, maybe 2kn, could be more.

Of course you could install a generator large enough to provide meaningful propulsion power, but then it's too large to efficiently run if I want to turn on my AC's so I really need a large generator for propulsion and a small generator for house loads....


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

nevetsyad said:


> I stated that large ships were using it and I was told I know nothing on the subject, only cruise ships use it and it's because they need a lot of electricity anyways. Yes, small and mid size ships, it may not be very prevalent with, yet. Cargo ships will be next in a decade or so.
> 
> There just isn't enough money/interest for a volt boat I don't believe. Not until cell density doubles again (at least) and prices are cut in half yet again. More efficient motors would be great also. Charging would be a big concern once an EP boat can cruise for a few days. How do you put 50kWh (or more) into a boat at a marina? Super efficient solar cells maybe? I'm fine with a wind/solar/hydro recharge, I don't plan on being in much of a hurry when I retire.
> 
> I think it's the electric car industry that's going to get EP boats to 90% of what's needed. I don't think the Elcos or Oceanvolts are doing much besides engineering off the shelf gear into a marine solution.


That's because you don't know what you are talking about.

Please name one, just a single large cargo ship that relies on EP propulsion. The closest I am aware of is the Nissan car carrier that has a massive 40kw solar array. But it doesn't use the power for propulsion but to run the onboard electrical demands.

The navy ships you linked to are NOT using EP for propulsion, but for low speed maneuverability when their very large gas turbine engines that are only efficient at very high speeds are horrendously inefficient. So ok, if you are currently operating a boat with four gas turbine main propulsion engines connected via a complicated transmission to the drive shaft I will concede that a EP may be a reasonable option.


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## nevetsyad (Jan 12, 2014)

Stumble said:


> That's because you don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> Please name one, just a single large cargo ship that relies on EP propulsion. The closest I am aware of is the Nissan car carrier that has a massive 40kw solar array. But it doesn't use the power for propulsion but to run the onboard electrical demands.
> 
> The navy ships you linked to are NOT using EP for propulsion, but for low speed maneuverability when their very large gas turbine engines that are only efficient at very high speeds are horrendously inefficient. So ok, if you are currently operating a boat with four gas turbine main propulsion engines connected via a complicated transmission to the drive shaft I will concede that a EP may be a reasonable option.


So much anger at the beginning there.

I saw designs for one years ago, thought they were in production. Similar to this one, if it ever gets built:
Container Ship Gains 300 Slots by Removing Engine Room

EP assists those Navy ships, yes. Carriers are also electric driven, same for nuclear subs. Even older subs were diesel-electric. Electric motors have driven war ships off and on for a century. Subs, I think they have the market cornered. When submerged, batteries drive them, recharging when surfaced.

The whole point of this all was, a boat, even one 40 feet, can be pushed via EP. Hunter's 36 footer is a great example, traveling over 600 miles at 5knots. The J boat J/88 electric powered by it's Oceanvolt setup, with solar panels in it's sales and on it's bimini, also able to recharge with hydro (while making hull speed under sale, 1kW is claimed). The J boat can fully charge in under three hours of sailing on a nice day. I think a nice cat could be built with sufficient motors, lots of solar, some wind generators, and a 10-20kW generator for long hauls over cloudy, windless days.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

nevetsyad said:


> So much anger at the beginning there.
> 
> I saw designs for one years ago, thought they were in production. Similar to this one, if it ever gets built:
> Container Ship Gains 300 Slots by Removing Engine Room
> ...


There are all sorts of things that are designed, or sketches drawn, but never go into production because they won't work.

Carriers are not electric driven, they use steam turbines. I am not even sure if there is a 50mw electric motor. There may be, but I certainly haven't looked into it.

As for subs.... Again nuclear subs use steam turbines, but yes DE subs exist, take a look at the size of the batteries, speed, and range when under EP instead of diesel.

The Hunter E36 was pulled from the market because it didn't come close to its numbers, but they do have a hybrid 27' on the market.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Greg I hope your law research is much better than your research on these electric propulsion systems.

Fjellstrand AS - Shippax Award and Seatrade Award for Ampere

Many more if you know how to search the internet and technical journals.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

nevetsyad said:


> You've lost 9% already?!? I know electric motorcycles that are 4 years old, have 70K miles and have lost only a percent or two. Is your pack not climate controlled?


From what I have read, my numbers are not far off the mark for a Leaf. The % of loss should drop by half each year.

Note that I am using a smartphone app not made by Nissan to check the KWH available at a full charge. The FOE 'gauge' on my car has not changed, although the predicted range has dropped. The predicted range is never a static number so it's hard to tell just by looking at that.

I'm pretty weak with electrical terminology, math and the witchcraft that goes along with it so take that for what it's worth.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Stumble said:


> That's because you don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> Please name one, just a single large cargo ship that relies on EP propulsion. The closest I am aware of is the Nissan car carrier that has a massive 40kw solar array. But it doesn't use the power for propulsion but to run the onboard electrical demands.
> 
> The navy ships you linked to are NOT using EP for propulsion, but for low speed maneuverability when their very large gas turbine engines that are only efficient at very high speeds are horrendously inefficient. So ok, if you are currently operating a boat with four gas turbine main propulsion engines connected via a complicated transmission to the drive shaft I will concede that a EP may be a reasonable option.


I believe this person is confusing diesel electric propulsion with EP. At no time can a diesel electric propulsion system operate from batteries; they must operate from the generators. There were and perhaps still are, a goodly number of vessels operating on diesel electric propulsion systems.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

guitarguy56 said:


> Greg I hope your law research is much better than your research on these electric propulsion systems.
> 
> Fjellstrand AS - Shippax Award and Seatrade Award for Ampere
> 
> Many more if you know how to search the internet and technical journals.


First this is not a cargo ship it is a short range ferry. It travels 5.7km then has to recharge. This is actually a great application of EP, a very short range required where the vessel can immediatly recharge from effectivelynlimited hydro power very quickly. But it is functionally equivilant to a yacht that motors in and out of the harbor for day sails.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Stumble said:


> First this is not a cargo ship it is a short range ferry. It travels 5.7km then has to recharge. This is actually a great application of EP, a very short range required where the vessel can immediatly recharge from effectivelynlimited hydro power very quickly. But it is functionally equivilant to a yacht that motors in and out of the harbor for day sails.


You're right... I mentioned there are others... Let's try a real cargo ship partially powered by solar power to run the thrusters and other electrical systems.

Auriga Leader - Toyota's Solar Powered Cargo Ship - gCaptain


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

guitarguy56 said:


> You're right... I mentioned there are others... Let's try a real cargo ship partially powered by solar power to run the thrusters and other electrical systems.
> 
> Auriga Leader - Toyota's Solar Powered Cargo Ship - gCaptain


I already mentioned that ship (or a similar one by Nissan). But the electric there doesn't drive propulsion it is only for house loads. The PV panels are there to handle the roughly 40kw demands on the onboard electric systems (fans, lights, AC, navigation, etc). It is great that the marine industry is looking to reduce emissions by reducing generator run time, but that is a far cry from using electrical power to provide propulsion.

The entire PV system produces about .2% of the total power demands of the vessel by the way. The remaining 99.8% is for main propulsion. Yes this technology is a good thing, but it simply isn't replacing diesel propulsion any time soon.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Stumble said:


> I already mentioned that ship (or a similar one by Nissan). But the electric there doesn't drive propulsion it is only for house loads. The PV panels are there to handle the roughly 40kw demands on the onboard electric systems (fans, lights, AC, navigation, etc). It is great that the marine industry is looking to reduce emissions by reducing generator run time, but that is a far cry from using electrical power to provide propulsion.
> 
> The entire PV system produces about .2% of the total power demands of the vessel by the way. The remaining 99.8% is for main propulsion. Yes this technology is a good thing, but it simply isn't replacing diesel propulsion any time soon.


While other ships have used solar panels before to power small electronics like auxiliary lights, the Auriga Leader is the first craft to direct solar power into the ship's main electrical grid. Energy from 328 panels is helping to power the ship's thrusters, hydraulics and steering gear, providing about 10 percent of the ship's total electricity usage.

http://inhabitat.com/auriga-leader-cargo-ship-gets-power-from-solar-panels/

While I don't dispute it is not 100% powered solely by electric propulsion it is using the electrical output and storage to run more than just the electrical needs of the ship. In this vessel the electric propulsion system is using that stored solar energy to propel this ship.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

guitarguy56 said:


> While other ships have used solar panels before to power small electronics like auxiliary lights, the Auriga Leader is the first craft to direct solar power into the ship's main electrical grid. Energy from 328 panels is helping to power the ship's thrusters, hydraulics and steering gear, providing about 10 percent of the ship's total electricity usage.
> 
> World?s First Cargo Ship Propelled by Solar Panels | Inhabitat - Green Design, Innovation, Architecture, Green Building
> 
> While I don't dispute it is not 100% powered solely by electric propulsion it is using the electrical output and storage to run more than just the electrical needs of the ship. In this vessel the electric propulsion system is using that stored solar energy to propel this ship.


Not even close. The solar panels generate 10% of the power the ship uses while docked, not 10% of the power the ship uses. The actual quote from the article you linked is

"The vessel, developed by Nippon Yusen K.K. and Nippon Oil Corp., is capable of generating 10% of the energy used while the ship is docked with its 328 solar panels on the top deck. "

The 'thrusters' you mention are not for propulsion, but the "auxiliary transversal propulsion device used when berthing and unberthing at port" World's First Solar-Power-Assisted Vessel Further Developed -Car Carrier Auriga Leader to be Fitted with Hybrid Power Supply System and Ballast-Water Management System, and Adapted to Use Low-Sulfur Fuel - | NYK Line . But note that isn't the only source of power for the thrusters, the majority of the power to operate them still coved from onboard electrical generators.

Main propulsion of the ship is via A Mitsubishi 7UEC60LSII 14,315KW engine. When you talk about replacing diesel with electric this is the number you have to hit, or come close too.

Yes PV panels can help reduce energy demands, yes every little bit helps, but for the moment EP is simply not up to the task of providing main propulsion. The energy density isn't there, batteries are not even close to the capacity necessary, and no amount of PV panels that can fit will help much either. The closest thing to renewable propulsion power I have seen are basically big traction kites. They are slowely getting a foot hold in shipping (three ships are using them I think), but there are still real practical difficulties in using them. How likely they are to supplement diesel on the large scale is still an open question.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

I have heard through EV forums that some salvage yards sell Nissan Leaf Batteries for as low as $500 and regularly at about $1000. That's a lot of power.

Most here are not considering EV power for long range cruising. The point is that it works for majority of us the majority of the time. We tend to buy things because we think we might need them. We convince ourselves we will fall into deep despair when we find out we really needed that dual axel truck we pay the delivery charge for that new mattress, so we pony up $50K for diesel truck and we take it grocery shopping and haul something twice a year.

People have made careers of helping human beings believe they simply must have things they really don't need at all. I'm not immune, whiskey is my downfall, but I still don't own a juicer.

I drive a car with a 100 mile range, have not bought gas or spent 1 minute on engine/drivetrain maintenance. If I need to go on a road trip I will rent a car, but I'm not a road trip kind of guy anymore. I save me free time for my boat.

Within 2 years there will be several cars at approx 30K with 200+ mile range, Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf, Tesla Model 3. Not far behind are BMW, VW, Ford, Mitsubishi. The time when hybrids and EV's look stupid so you don't buy them is coming to an end. Gas will not be $2 a gallon for ever and the next big spike will be higher than the last ones, nothing gets cheaper as time goes on.

I like my little Yanmar but would love to run silent, maybe someday....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

RobGallagher said:


> ....Most here are not considering EV power for long range cruising. The point is that it works for majority of us the majority of the time.


That's a fair point and I don't think I see any pushback on it. The question is whether there is sufficient long range capability.



> People have made careers of helping human beings believe they simply must have things they really don't need at all.


I fully support the premise that one's boat should be ideal for how they use it 90% of the time and simply capable the other 10%. Sometimes, that 10% is just a dream, but it's a powerful one for most sailors I know. If it weren't at least capable of that other 10%, it would fail my test.



> I drive a car with a 100 mile range, have not bought gas


Although, ironically, 70% of the electricity you charge it with, was produced from carbon based fuels. The majority that from coal, followed by natural gas. So you are buying coal and natural gas.



> Within 2 years there will be several cars at approx 30K with 200+ mile range


That's still far behind the 500 mile range of a tank of gas in a reasonably fuel efficient car. I'm glad the electric tech is improving, there are lots of benefits. I'm only pointing out the energy density issue.



> The time when hybrids and EV's look stupid so you don't buy them is coming to an end.......


Not sure what you mean by 'look stupid'. Admittedly, I never understood why the Prius was so ugly from the start. I always wondered if it was so that Prius owners could stand out for their theoretical environmental advocacy.

If by stupid you mean economically, I'm not so sure we're that close yet. It should get there eventually. First, as I said, it's not really all that clean an energy, unless you charge it at home with solar. Most of our grid is still powered the old fashioned way. In fact, one could argue that additional demand for electricity, increases demand for coal energy at present. At least lithium batteries technology can be charged cycled a sufficient number of times (assuming proper usage) to overcome the cost of the carbon fuel it took to manufacture and charge them. No other type really can and even lithium is marginal.

To hopefully be clear, I am not anti-EP at all. It has it's place. It's simpler, quieter, less maintenance, etc. It just doesn't stand shoulder to shoulder with a tank of fuel yet. Not close. To your point, there are some users where that doesn't matter and that's the market for it. But it's still a niche market.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Wow, a typical internet discussion where my solution is the winner in every situation. Personally, I don't trust a position which includes no down side. What an interesting discussion this would be if people who made a choice on either side of the argument were willing to discuss what the negative's of their choice are in actual experience. I'd be much more interested in reading that, although I do admit to reading this whole thread, but it was much more like not being able to look away when driving by a car wreck.

IMHO there are tradeoffs. 

1. Yea there's less to go wrong in an electric motor (fewer moving parts) than a contraption delivery high pressure diesel to cylinders connected to drive shafts connected to cams, connected to rods and valves, etc.
2. Yea, there's much more range/power in diesel when compared to any practical installation of EP.

One other thought, with a few notable exceptions of sailors whom I congratulate for their ability and patience, I believe that most of us use our engines MUCH more than we are willing to admit on a sailing web site, particularly when cruising vs day sailing. I know I do. 

OK, so I'll start. Here's the negatives. I've always had diesels in 5 different boats, and I've spent time too much time fixing hard to reach problems underway in rough conditions. I've had fuel filters clog, belts fail, strainers get plugged, and even dripless shaft glands fail (although I guess that is not a diesel problem). I spend a lot of time on annual maintenance which is a pain..filters, impeller, oil change, coolant change, transmission oil change, pinking the raw water against freezing, etc. They don't like to sit still, they do better when they are run regularly, and sometimes I'm too busy with life so the boat sits.

On the positive side, I've run the engine as much as 48hrs non-stop against a head wind to get someplace ahead of bad weather at hull speed, and been very glad I had the option. I can motor against a strong headwind when necessary for hours. I'm a sailor who highly values the ability of his boat to cover 100's of miles under power. The horror! 

Why is this discussion so hard? 

Anyone using EP willing to talk about any negatives? Plenty of negatives to diesel.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Are you sure you read this whole thread?


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> Although, ironically, 70% of the electricity you charge it with, was produced from carbon based fuels. The majority that from coal, followed by natural gas. So you are buying coal and natural gas.
> 
> ... ...
> 
> If by stupid you mean economically, I'm not so sure we're that close yet. It should get there eventually. First, as I said, it's not really all that clean an energy, unless you charge it at home with solar. Most of our grid is still powered the old fashioned way. In fact, one could argue that additional demand for electricity, increases demand for coal energy at present. At least lithium batteries technology can be charged cycled a sufficient number of times (assuming proper usage) to overcome the cost of the carbon fuel it took to manufacture and charge them. No other type really can and even lithium is marginal.


This argument is true to a point, in that how 'clean' EV's are is in large part driven by how clean the power they use to recharge is. But it is a bit simplistic to assume that they really aren't any cleaner than a high efficency gas power car.

In the US for instance we really have a lot of small power grids, each with their own ratios of clean and dirty power, so depending on where in the country you are has a lot to do with how clean your EV is. In California for instance an EV charging from the grid puts out about the same pollution as a car that gets 80mpg. While in the Midwest where coal is still the largest producer of power that number drops to about 35mpg. So it is important to know your local mix.

In most places you can also pay a little more to buy only renewable energy, which does substantially support investment in new renewable power production and should be counted as well.

For a full detailed examination of this see Shades of Green: Electric Cars? Carbon Emissions Around the Globe ? shrinkthatfootprint.com but the take away is that in most of the US EP is far greener than a gas powered car per mile traveled.

I would point out that small diesel marine engines are generally far worse for the environment in terms of emissions than car engines. First we use much smaller engines which precludes the use of a lot of scrubbing technologies, and second smaller engines by their nature suffer from higher parasitic power than larger engines.

All in all I think it is far to say that no where in the country is a EV worse than diesel, and almost everywhere with a boating community it is far better, though not perfect.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Waterrat said:


> Are you sure you read this whole thread?


Sorry Waterrat, I cast too wide a net, some are speaking on both sides of the issue


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

capecodda said:


> Anyone using EP willing to talk about any negatives? Plenty of negatives to diesel.


I no longer have an EV boat, but I did for two years.

In my experience the primary negative was range. In my case I used a trolling motor to push a 30' 3,600lb sailboat in and out of the harbor once a day, and to do that took about 1/4 of a small car battery. Which frankly isn't bad. I was very happy with this system.

The downside however is that the same battery couldn't provide enough range to get us back in if the wind died more than 2 miles from the slip, and more than once we had to get towed back in from the race course.

Now this was a special case where weight was the critical factor not usability (race boat) and I suffered the limitations happily because we were able to shave about 40lbs from the sailing weight of the boat. More and better batteries would have helped this substantially, but still wouldn't have made the range necessary to motor the 20 odd miles necessary around here to get the the next closest racing area (somethings we did once a month or so on average). So I also owned a gas motor for deliveries.

The second major issue is the time it takes to recharge the batteries. on my little system we could pretty reliably bet that every morning the battery would be topped off and ready to go, but with a larger battery bank it can realistically take more than a day of mains power to recharge. For someone who uses their boat day after day this could be a real limitation.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Minnewaska said:


> That's a fair point and I don't think I see any pushback on it. The question is whether there is sufficient long range capability.
> 
> I fully support the premise that one's boat should be ideal for how they use it 90% of the time and simply capable the other 10%. Sometimes, that 10% is just a dream, but it's a powerful one for most sailors I know. If it weren't at least capable of that other 10%, it would fail my test.
> 
> ...


At 250 miles it will stand shoulder to shoulder with a tank of gas for 98+% of car drivers. Fast charging is 20-30 minutes. Not many people drive a car more than four hours without having to stop.

I charge my car at night, on 110v. Those turbines are turning 24-7 no matter what. I may pay for that electricity but it is being generated anyway. So for now, that argument does not hold water with me. Now as the number of EVs sold grows so does solar and other alternative energy. So will the option to partially power your house from your EV battery using cheaper energy purchased at night. Maybe even have the option to sell back some energy into the grid at work or out shopping if you decide you don't need the full charge that day.

On looking "stupid", most look like a dumb choice for a car design. They are ugly, no doubt, so why design an ugly car? It is 'stupid' to design and produce an ugly car unless you don't want to sell it. Go shopping for an EV. Dealerships don't want to sell them because they don't require service.

Those big shiny showrooms are not built on car sales, they are built on servicing the cars they sell you. Except Tesla of course, and they want to sell you cars without dealerships. Guess who is fighting that?

When I talk about pumping gas and maintenance, I'm also talking about my time. Then there is the torque, it's so, so much fun to drive.

Now, how does this pertain to boats? The pushback sounds exactly the the same. We have a number of serious cruisers who could not live with an e-powered boat. Then there is the rest of us.

The "I'm not against EVs but I can give you a dozen reasons why they are a don't work" coming from folks who never spent a few months driving one is frustrating.

All that being said, I don't know that I will live long enough to own a boat with an electric engine because of my financial circumstances. If I want to retire I'll probably always live with a pre-owned diesel.  
We will see...


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

RobGallagher said:


> Go shopping for an EV. *Dealerships don't want to sell them because they don't require service.*
> 
> Those big shiny showrooms are not built on car sales, they are built on servicing the cars they sell you.


Tell that to my neighbor who's Tesla is in the shop very regularly. Sad reality is that from where we are in Maine he can't make it to the dealership on a full charge despite Tesla saying that he can. In the winter his charge performance is much worse than Tesla led his to believe. For most of what he does, it is fine, and the car is a BLAST to drive, but he's pretty pissed that the range claims have not held true.

At last count I think we had a total of less than 40 Tesla's in the entire state. He has to stop at a hotel with a Tesla charger port or in Seabrook, NH for 30 minutes just to make it to his servicing dealer, and sadly he has needed service much more than your post would suggest of EV's.

My last Prius on the other hand was a 2007 model and I sold it to my mother in law with 172k. When I had it it suffered two failed headlights, the digital clock broke and the 12V accessory battery failed, that's it. The only time it has been in the shop for my MIL has been for the key which she dropped in the sink. I think the car now has over 190k...

My current 2012 Prius has 72K and has nothing has failed nor has it been into the shop for anything but oil changes. Brakes are still original. My 2007 only needed one brake job in 172k.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

RobGallagher said:


> ....The "I'm not against EVs but I can give you a dozen reasons why they are a don't work" coming from folks who never spent a few months driving one is frustrating.


I don't recall anyone saying they don't work. Actually, I think most completely agree on what they can and can't do. The only disagreement I've noted is, while most agree they are not well suited for long distance cruising, the pushback is that most don't long distance cruise.



> All that being said, I don't know that I will live long enough to own a boat with an electric engine because of my financial circumstances. If I want to retire I'll probably always live with a pre-owned diesel.
> We will see...


So one has to default economically to having diesel? Interesting.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Minnewaska said:


> So one has to default economically to having diesel? Interesting.


Economics because my "new boat" is 28 yrs old with the original engine.

My last boat was is now 45 yrs old, still has the original A-4.

My next boat will probably be 25 yrs old with the original engine.

Sailing is a hobby I can only afford if I buy very used. 

If I had 200-300K to spend on a weekend cruiser I might make another decision.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> I don't recall anyone saying they don't work. Actually, I think most completely agree on what they can and can't do. The only disagreement I've noted is, while most agree they are not well suited for long distance cruising, the pushback is that most don't long distance cruise.


From my experience with EP I don't really see any reason why it would not work for long distance cruising. You don't need an engine to cruise a number of long distance sailors have shown with travels in their engine less boats. Though for most of us some type of auxiliary propulsion makes things wasier for entering a harbor or docking. The question is how much motoring do you feel you need to do? EP is very adaptable to ones needs. You just need spec a system that matches your comfort/skill level and fuel tankage. Don't want a pure electric system you can go hybrid with a marine diesel generator that will power you along until the cows come home. Plus you can place that generator where in the boat you want for easy access. This offers an advantage over a diesel engine that needs be connected to the prop. It's location on the boat is pretty much set. If you wanted redundancy you could add another generator. Personally my needs are met with just a Honda 2000 generator I'm very comfortable with it, my skills and the reliability and power of my EP system to take me where I need/want to go. YMMV.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Maine Sail said:


> Tell that to my neighbor who's Tesla is in the shop very regularly. Sad reality is that from where we are in Maine he can't make it to the dealership on a full charge despite Tesla saying that he can. In the winter his charge performance is much worse than Tesla led his to believe. For most of what he does, it is fine, and the car is a BLAST to drive, but he's pretty pissed that the range claims have not held true.
> 
> At last count I think we had a total of less than 40 Tesla's in the entire state. He has to stop at a hotel with a Tesla charger port or in Seabrook, NH for 30 minutes just to make it to his servicing dealer, and sadly he has needed service much more than your post would suggest of EV's.
> 
> ...


I have customers who drive Teslas to S.E. CT from Manhattan and they seem to have different experiences. That is not to say that your friend is not having issues, but Tesla does have a reputation of building great cars.

Anyway, as I said, I've been driving a Leaf for two years without a hitch. Your trouble free hybrid that probably operates around town mainly as an EV seems to go along with what I have said. Maybe you don't see it that way or drive it that way. If this is the case then, I stand corrected.


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## Captain Canuck (Oct 20, 2014)

Maine Sail said:


> My last Prius on the other hand was a 2007 model and I sold it to my mother in law with 172k. When I had it it suffered two failed headlights, the digital clock broke and the 12V accessory battery failed, that's it. The only time it has been in the shop for my MIL has been for the key which she dropped in the sink. I think the car now has over 190k...
> 
> My current 2012 Prius has 72K and has nothing has failed nor has it been into the shop for anything but oil changes. Brakes are still original. My 2007 only needed one brake job in 172k.


I've had similar experiences in my Toyota Highlander. 111k and nothing but regular maintenance and tires. On a good day, I get about 29mpg, on a bad day, 22, which is still higher than the best you could expect from any other 7 seater SUV.

While I'd love to own an EV, it's not an option as we take long trips (500-1000miles a day).


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

The amazing thing is that perhaps 6 years ago we would not be having this conversation at all. Batteries are coming along fast. I have read that the 2018 Leaf will have a 60KW battery that fits in the footprint of its 24 KW battery.

I can't quite get my 9" RIB all the way into the hatchback (although with deflated tubes it's very, very close) and my leaf still lacks "insane mode"


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

RobGallagher said:


> The amazing thing is that perhaps 6 years ago we would not be having this conversation at all. Batteries are coming along fast. I have read that the 2018 Leaf will have a 60KW battery that fits in the footprint of its 24 KW battery.
> 
> I can't quite get my 9" RIB all the way into the hatchback (although with deflated tubes it's very, very close) and my leaf still lacks "insane mode"


I'm starting to see 48 volt battery packs from GM available on line too. If and when I need new batteries I'll sure be looking around to see what is available at that time. Though the AGM's are holding up so I'm in "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mode.  My next EP upgrade this year is to add some additional solar power to the 48 volt bank. The final goal is to get to at least 450 watts. I currently have 120 watts if I can get to 450 watts and above eventually I could be doing two knots under solar alone. That would be sweet!


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

mbianka said:


> The short answer is I would not. I doubt any prudent mariner would. Pounding into 50 to 60 knot winds for hours sounds like a good way to break something and turn it into a real bad day.


Seems to me if one is pounding into a 50-60 knot head wind you're already having a bad day


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## 413761 (Aug 5, 2016)

Old Thread, I know. But interesting. Sure you can go with almost any or no propulsion system on a cruising sailboat, if it is suitable for your needs and desires. Most cruisers, however, do a lot more motoring than they planned on, and there are many places you can go with a reliable engine that are very enjoyable: canals, the ICW, into and out of marinas, etc. It is possible to sail in some of these locations, but it is probably more of a stunt than an enjoyable enterprise for most of us. I have sailed in all of them in an emergency when the engine is down, and there's the rub. Cruising really is repairing your boat in exotic places around the world and your life aboard will be miserable if you a) use and depend on an engine and b) have a system that can't be fixed everywhere without unavailable technical expertise and parts. With a diesel engine and a very basic and simple electrical system I have rebuilt the exhaust system using basic materials in Panama, had an alternator rebuilt at a fish dock in Honduras, replaced dead batteries with oddball, off-the-shelf car batteries found in dusty ports off the beaten track, and created and carried out numerous jerry rigs with duct tape, bailing wire, JB weld, vice grip pliers, etc. when something broke and I needed that engine to move on. This is sometimes the choice between being totally stuck in a coral surrounded cove hundreds of miles from any possible help or shop or making do. I don't think high-powered battery banks with special chargers, controllers, etc., fit this bill, and no matter how reliable and durable electric motors are you are not going to be able to jury rig and scavenge parts as easily when the nearest town is thatched huts with no electricity and no connection to the outside world. Sure, go EP, but only if you have a boat that sails like a witch, and you are confident taking it anywhere under sail.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Some things I don't understand and hope the engineers and wrenches on this thread can explain.
In practice solar does well but average input is limited. On most full time cruising boats it is sufficient to run the instruments, AP, radar, and frig/freezer, lights and a computer or two. On passage if it rains a bit or is cloudy you still need to fire up the genset every few days especially if you need to make water. I don't get the calculations as they seem to be in conflict with experience. 
Wind is no longer noisy but again in practice still only comes into its own at average true wind speeds of 15-20k. Yes, you see this in the trades but commonly it's turning but only putting out 1-5A elsewhere.
Hydroelectric is much more efficient and outputs significant even at low speeds. You need to be moving or there's no output.
Diesel electric has been around in a proven form running subs without difficulty since WW2. One would think transmission losses would be less.
What I don't understand is whereas other sources discuss and promote systems whereby the prop spins and charges the batteries through an electric motor serving as a generator. Or the motor powers the vessel from a battery source or the diesel turns the shaft. 
What I further don't understand is given the weight of batteries can't this weight serve as ballast in a sail boat hence mitigating that penalty. 
This presupposes the vessel is designed from ground up as a hybrid boat.
One can see multiple potential advantages. Internal ballast, ability to place motor/engine near center of the boat, more flexibility in interior design, redundancy of having both electric and diesel power, decreased operating costs, greater efficiency.
Even avoiding the expense and fire risks of Li it would seem this is feasible with current technologies and in fact beyond torqeedo is being pursued. I'm quite curious to hear from those with more knowledge about these integrated propulsion systems.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

The above is aimed at the long term cruising boat of 40-60'. Can envision a keel/centerboarder with batteries in several water tight but ventilated compartments. Possibly two props with two motors/hydro generators but one diesel. Diesel energy sized sufficiently to power the boat in a storm or move it at cruising speed and recharge bank in a calm. System supplemented by solar and wind.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

outbound said:


> In practice solar does well but average input is limited.


Agreed. PV efficiency has improved over the last decade and controller losses are down. The delta is pretty small in the grand scheme of things and in no way approaches the consumption requirements of EP for a cruising boat. That means diesel-electric with a solar supplement. For now EP is a stunt not applicable to long-term, long-range cruising.



outbound said:


> Diesel electric has been around in a proven form running subs without difficulty since WW2. One would think transmission losses would be less.


Less than what? Direct-drive diesel has the inefficiencies of converting energy from fossil fuel to rotation. Diesel-electric adds inefficiencies in generation, storage, and conversion to rotation.



outbound said:


> What I further don't understand is given the weight of batteries can't this weight serve as ballast in a sail boat hence mitigating that penalty.


One could do that. That makes access really hard, adds wiring complexity (and likely more losses due to longer interconnects for access loops) and means you can pretty well count on loosing electrical in even minor flooding. Implementing that sort of idea would likely result in much swearing, dirt, oil, and skinned knuckles when it comes time to replace the battery bank. I foresee stories like "my son left the hatch open, we took a boarding wave, and lost the battery bank."



outbound said:


> redundancy of having both electric and diesel power, decreased operating costs, greater efficiency.


Not much redundancy since everything has to work for propulsion (absent half an hour of propulsion from a full day of solar <- made up this number, I did no calculations). Increased operating costs due to additional systems and much larger battery banks, reduced efficiency (see above).



outbound said:


> Even avoiding the expense and fire risks of Li it would seem this is feasible with current technologies and in fact beyond torqeedo is being pursued. I'm quite curious to hear from those with more knowledge about these integrated propulsion systems.


The US Navy (and other militaries) have long explored electric propulsion. Submarines use DE (or nuclear) because they have to operate without access to combustion air when submerged. The only DE ships I know of in the operational fleet are sub tenders which use their own propulsion systems as spares for submarines. Early attempts (WWI) at use of EP in the fleet were ultimately retired due to weight penalties and inefficiencies.

There are some diesel-electric cruise ships. This works because there is plenty of space in the hull for machinery, the ships aren't weight sensitive ("cargo" is high volume, low weight), banks of identical generators allow running engines at their most efficient load and adding and dropping generators as machinery and hotel loads require. That approach does not scale down to a 40-60' cruising boat.

I believe the US Navy is again exploring EP as a way to combine diesel and GT for more efficient cruise conditions without giving up speed when needed. The last I heard it was all big and heavy.


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## 413761 (Aug 5, 2016)

By the way, the OP is on a catamaran. Cats abhor weight. Don't do it if you have a cat. For a heavy displacement long-distance cruising mono you might be able to carry enough batteries to make EP useful for raising anchor, getting out of marina slips, and other specialized uses, and then use sail as your main propulsion system. Sure, a diesel-electric system would work well, but the gain in efficiency is not enough to overcome the cost in complexity, weight, dollars, and space. KISS rules when cruising. If there is a simpler way of doing something it is usually better because you will have to be able to fix it by yourself on anchor in some place where you will not be able to order parts or see a technician.


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

Once the ideology has been stripped out of the discussion, it was quite an illuminating thread. Thank you all.

This may be a minor point for people to consider. The increasing prevalence of sail drive works against hybrid diesel electric (if hydro generation is part of your plan) because of the need to service the seals every hundred or so hours of "engine operation". The largest unit (I think Yanmar) is around 30hp and must have a shaft drive to, preferably, a feathering prop.

So, for a 30-40ft boat with a shaft and a desire to avoid a separate generator and get more regenerative power than the likely solar/wind options for a boat that size, I would say that there is a case to be made for a hybrid solution if you would otherwise have had a generator. This is the "Prius" option since you can probably use the electric drive for a lot of short service - in and out of a slip/mooring field - but have the regular diesel service for more extensive needs.

I tried to make a solution of this kind work for a larger boat and eventually realized that it could not yet be done for my service needs. However, it is only by pushing the easy "no" to a possible "yes" that drives progress. I am holding out for true solar sails (rather than wrecking a sail by sewing on a flexible solar panel) and battery chemistries or fuel cells that stack up in terms of energy density. We can all dream.......


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## 413761 (Aug 5, 2016)

The thing about hydro generation is that it creates drag--lots of it. So, unless it is blowing like stink and you have extra wind to spare the drag will slow you down and/or make the boat handle poorly. Frankly, I hate the feeling of drag when the boat's bottom is dirty, and yes you can feel it distinctly. Towing something to generate hydro power would be worse than spinning props. Seems to be counterproductive to create drag in order to generate electricity on a sailboat IMHO. The thing with solar sails is they have to be up for them to work, so when you are anchored in harbor--which is 90% of the time--nada power generation. The current state of wind power and solar panels is not enough juice for full-time engine use, but is probably within reason for someone willing to have a small motor that is useful for pulling up the anchor and getting in and out of harbor.


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

All agreed. I am not thinking about solar sails for motoring, just having something that does not clutter the lines of a beautiful boat with generators and panels or provide drag to harm performance. I am dreaming of shedding weight without losing performance.....

We just aren't there yet.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Perhaps I'm wrong but with a variable pitched prop you could tune in the amount of drag and power appropriate to the situation. Even incorporate a torque sensor to do this automatically. In light air or when power not needed just feather it.


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

I think the ability to tune drag to conditions is indeed a feature of the Yanmar solution - or at least that is what they say. 

People tend to forget that, if 40 hp deployed to make you go 8 kts under motor, then your sails are delivering 40hp when you are sailing at that speed. If you are taking 2 hp for regeneration, then you only lost 5% of your power. If I was racing, I would hate it but if I were on a crossing, it might be worth the $15k saving on a generator, if the charging were enough to allow me to rely on the alternator off the engine as my back-up.........


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## 413761 (Aug 5, 2016)

In my experience offshore you almost never want to slow up at all, but instead most of the time the wind is a bit too light or very light and you want greater speed. The reason for this is that most of us most of the time try to sail offshore during the best weather, which tends to be settled and too calm for maximum sailing speed. Losing 0.5 of a knot doesn't sound like much, but if you are only traveling 5 knots to begin with that means you lose more than 2 hours each day of sailing (.5 knot x 24 = 12 nautical miles). Multiply that times a week or so and you're a day behind where you could have been. I used to have a cat with an outboard and when we raised the motor under sail we gained well more than .5 knot. So sure, there are ways probably to fine tune the system for better power generation with less drag, but there will always be some loss.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Telesail said:


> I think the ability to tune drag to conditions is indeed a feature of the Yanmar solution - or at least that is what they say.
> 
> People tend to forget that, if 40 hp deployed to make you go 8 kts under motor, then your sails are delivering 40hp when you are sailing at that speed. If you are taking 2 hp for regeneration, then you only lost 5% of your power. If I was racing, I would hate it but if I were on a crossing, it might be worth the $15k saving on a generator, if the charging were enough to allow me to rely on the alternator off the engine as my back-up.........


The problem with hydro generators is and always has been that most cruising boats simply do not average high enough speeds to be practical. Sure if you put one on a Clas 40 or a 65' boat they put out reasonable amounts of power, but on a more typical cruising boat of say a 40' heavily burdened sloop, not really.

Figure you loose 1kn with the gen deployed, in which case a boat needs to currently be averaging about 175nm days in all conditions before even the best systems really start to matter much. That's a 6kn average generating 200w after accounting for the speed loss.

Slow down to just 5kn average and you are down to 100w.

Sure there are boats that can do this, but there simply aren't that many cruising boats that actually average 6kn thru the water. It happens sure, and from time to time a 40' boat may hit the mythical 200nm day but it's rare, and very few boats can reliably achieve this.

So if you assume typical route planning speeds for a 40' boat of 5kn, reduce that by 1kn for the extra drag, and figure your hydrogen will actually put out about 50w... It's not nothing, but a single solar panel will typically do better without adding 20% to your passage time.


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

I admit, I do most of my sailing now in the Caribbean trade winds where a 15-20kt wind is reliably anticipated - I suppose perceptions of what is an acceptable penalty are conditioned by your most vivid experiences. 

If I could just avoid dragging a dinghy I would gain more than the loss of a hydro generator. 

But thinking back to those still New England days, you are right about begrudging every tenth of a knot. 

However, in my dreams, the wind always blows from 140 degrees off the bearing to my destination at a steady 18kts.......


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

T-seems my life is similar to yours. NE in summer eastern Caribbean in winter. Still think stumble is being conservative. On passage engine goes on at 5 kts. 170-200 is typical and 200 is notable but not unheard of. This is on a 46' cruiser with a mediocre PHRF of 90 (NE). On a 9-12d passage we may end up slowing down to make landfall in daylight with the sun behind us. Time lost to a hydrogenerator doesn't seem that big a deal. There's a lot more energy in moving water then moving air. A gear or two to control load while maintaining adequate shaft rpm and variable pitch prop lessens the concerns he appropiately mentions. Days are shorter in the winter. Solar is good but not great. Looking around, at least on this circuit, we are one of the smaller boats. Look at the 1500 or SDR boat list. On this site have been lead to understand for true voyaging boats this is not true but then again been lead to believe Americans are rare once you leave this circuit. 
Still stumbles basic position seems correct. Although yanmar and several British firms offer hybrids it's just not there yet. But don't see it being long to come. In new construction within a decade expect to see hybrid as a check off option both for BWBs and coastal cruisers. For now diesel propulsion, diesel genset, solar and wind allows the most time truly away on a reasonably sized cruising boat. Fuel is water, fuel is AP, fuel is heat, fuel is all to often the day's work. Our genset goes on ~once per month but the once per month is often key to safety and comfort. There's so much more energy in #2 per weight or volume c/w even the best battery it's very hard to disagree with Stumble.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Ten Four said:


> In my experience offshore you almost never want to slow up at all, but instead most of the time the wind is a bit too light or very light and you want greater speed. The reason for this is that most of us most of the time try to sail offshore during the best weather, which tends to be settled and too calm for maximum sailing speed. Losing 0.5 of a knot doesn't sound like much, but if you are only traveling 5 knots to begin with that means you lose more than 2 hours each day of sailing (.5 knot x 24 = 12 nautical miles). Multiply that times a week or so and you're a day behind where you could have been. I used to have a cat with an outboard and when we raised the motor under sail we gained well more than .5 knot. So sure, there are ways probably to fine tune the system for better power generation with less drag, but there will always be some loss.


The thing is you can use EP differently than a diesel or an outboard. It gives you choices. For example in light air I use minimal amps to just turn the prop to NEGATE any prop drag. I get a nice bump up in speed and it's still quiet on board. I don't need any folding prop to try and reduce drag. As the wind picks up the amp draw starts to go down and then the prop goes into regen and starts charging the battery. Once the battery is fully charged regen stops. It's a beautiful thing to see.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Ten Four said:


> Old Thread, I know. But interesting. Sure you can go with almost any or no propulsion system on a cruising sailboat, if it is suitable for your needs and desires. Most cruisers, however, do a lot more motoring than they planned on, and there are many places you can go with a reliable engine that are very enjoyable: canals, the ICW, into and out of marinas, etc. It is possible to sail in some of these locations, but it is probably more of a stunt than an enjoyable enterprise for most of us. I have sailed in all of them in an emergency when the engine is down, and there's the rub. Cruising really is repairing your boat in exotic places around the world and your life aboard will be miserable if you a) use and depend on an engine and b) have a system that can't be fixed everywhere without unavailable technical expertise and parts. With a diesel engine and a very basic and simple electrical system I have rebuilt the exhaust system using basic materials in Panama, had an alternator rebuilt at a fish dock in Honduras, replaced dead batteries with oddball, off-the-shelf car batteries found in dusty ports off the beaten track, and created and carried out numerous jerry rigs with duct tape, bailing wire, JB weld, vice grip pliers, etc. when something broke and I needed that engine to move on. This is sometimes the choice between being totally stuck in a coral surrounded cove hundreds of miles from any possible help or shop or making do. I don't think high-powered battery banks with special chargers, controllers, etc., fit this bill, and no matter how reliable and durable electric motors are you are not going to be able to jury rig and scavenge parts as easily when the nearest town is thatched huts with no electricity and no connection to the outside world. Sure, go EP, but only if you have a boat that sails like a witch, and you are confident taking it anywhere under sail.


For one thing the EP system will probably be more reliable than the diesel. But, I did have similar concerns back in 2008 when I converted to EP. So I bought a spare Zivan NG-1 battery charger to have as a backup. It has sat in it's box for eight years now. My whole EP system was delivered in two 45 pound boxes not including batteries. I could always buy a spare Navitas controller module for $400 if I wanted. Spare motor $1,200. The rest is pretty much fuses, connectors and switches. Nothing too exotic. You can also mix batteries in a pinch. But, just like the house bank it's better if they are matched in age.


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## 413761 (Aug 5, 2016)

> For one thing the EP system will probably be more reliable than the diesel.


I don't doubt it, but cruisers need to be prepared for the worst case scenario: major lightning strike, somebody screws up and shorts something out, etc. I have met people who lost every piece of electronic gear onboard and were lucky not have the boat burned down after a major lightning strike. But, they were able to continue limping along with sails and diesel because they were not dependent on electronics. This situation occurred in an area hundreds of miles from civilization, and even once you got to civilization the costs and hassles involved in getting parts were monumental: think $50 to receive a package weighing a couple of pounds because only Fedex was reliable, and even then it took two weeks. I personally believe that you shouldn't be solely dependent on any piece of electronics onboard--there must be a backup way of running things when the electronics fail. Sounds like you are well prepared with spares, but spares die too--I have gone through two alternators on a passage due to strange battery problems--one of the newish batteries shorted itself out.

As to the offshore performance issue we were trying to get to Bermuda once with a high parked over the islands. For weeks the winds were so light that at night the ocean was a glassy flat mirror. We motored until we were down to maybe one hour of fuel, but I wanted to save that for the final harbor entrance. Other boats were doing the same and running dry left and right, but there was just no wind. We inched along with every shred of canvas up making as little as .5 knot but in the right direction. After we finally got in a massive gale hit that caused all sorts of damage among the boats that were still out there, including rolling over a 65 footer, which was dismasted. Every fraction of a knot counted in that passage and EP would have long-since died out unless solar could have given you enough to get over the night-time calm.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Ten Four,

I have seen boats hit by lightning that prevented the diesel from working, the starter motor was fried. I am not a huge fan of EP for most people, but there are so many electronics on a modern diesel I don't think that changes the risk equasion much if at all.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Ten Four said:


> I don't doubt it, but cruisers need to be prepared for the worst case scenario: major lightning strike, somebody screws up and shorts something out, etc. I have met people who lost every piece of electronic gear onboard and were lucky not have the boat burned down after a major lightning strike. But, they were able to continue limping along with sails and diesel because they were not dependent on electronics. This situation occurred in an area hundreds of miles from civilization, and even once you got to civilization the costs and hassles involved in getting parts were monumental: think $50 to receive a package weighing a couple of pounds because only Fedex was reliable, and even then it took two weeks. I personally believe that you shouldn't be solely dependent on any piece of electronics onboard--there must be a backup way of running things when the electronics fail. Sounds like you are well prepared with spares, but spares die too--I have gone through two alternators on a passage due to strange battery problems--one of the newish batteries shorted itself out.
> 
> As to the offshore performance issue we were trying to get to Bermuda once with a high parked over the islands. For weeks the winds were so light that at night the ocean was a glassy flat mirror. We motored until we were down to maybe one hour of fuel, but I wanted to save that for the final harbor entrance. Other boats were doing the same and running dry left and right, but there was just no wind. We inched along with every shred of canvas up making as little as .5 knot but in the right direction. After we finally got in a massive gale hit that caused all sorts of damage among the boats that were still out there, including rolling over a 65 footer, which was dismasted. Every fraction of a knot counted in that passage and EP would have long-since died out unless solar could have given you enough to get over the night-time calm.


Yes if you need parts in some exotic locales it will cost you. Does not matter if it's a diesel injection pump or EP controller or an alternator. Speaking of alternators my boats alternator left the boat with the diesel and will never return.  But, there are a lot less parts too with EP to worry about if you don't want to carry spares.

Also in operation again EP gives you more options you don't have with a pure diesel if you choose to use them. For example I have a three legged stool approach to energy on board. Four if you count regen ability. The generator, solar, and wind turbine are the primary sources though. In a no wind situation the generator and solar work together. With wind, solar and the wind turbine compliment each other along with the sails of course. All can run separately or in combination in providing fuel (energy) for propulsion. Making fuel (energy) while underway always makes me smile. My boat needs just 450 watts to move along at 3 knots. I've got 120 watts of solar for EP on board already one of my next projects is to add enough panels to reach 450 watts and reduce the generator use even more. For night motoring in no wind situations the generator is always there to be used of course. It's never an either or situation with EP. It's all about harvesting as much energy as you can from the environment surrounding the boat and minimizing fuel consumption in the process. It's works pretty well with EP. Plus as new technologies (batteries) and efficiency (solar panels) come along they can be easily incorporated into the system improving things on board even more.


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## 413761 (Aug 5, 2016)

I saw an electric setup once that was really sweet because it was so simple even I could understand it! Just a bunch of deep-cycle batteries down low in the boat so they would act as ballast, an off-the-shelf electric motor, belt drive to the shaft, and an off-on switch. Solar and wind did the charging, or a power cord when at the dock. The switch was just turned off or on to give propulsion and adjust speed by flipping off when the boat got going too fast, or it could be put in reverse I think too. Something like that on a really sweet sailing boat would be nice. I just don't think the average cruiser that motors everywhere would enjoy it.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Ten Four said:


> I saw an electric setup once that was really sweet because it was so simple even I could understand it! Just a bunch of deep-cycle batteries down low in the boat so they would act as ballast, an off-the-shelf electric motor, belt drive to the shaft, and an off-on switch. Solar and wind did the charging, or a power cord when at the dock. The switch was just turned off or on to give propulsion and adjust speed by flipping off when the boat got going too fast, or it could be put in reverse I think too. Something like that on a really sweet sailing boat would be nice. I just don't think the average cruiser that motors everywhere would enjoy it.


I agree one needs to have a sailboat not a motorboat with sails to be satisfied with EP. Though this fellow converted his old outboard to electric and uses EP on his Columbia River Scow. 
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: AN AFTERNOON ON THE COLUMBIA RIVER ON AN ELECTRIC SCOW
I have found so many advantages to using EP that I never wished I still had my old diesel back. Simplicity is the key. My motor is an off the shelf Lemco motor and the controller is the same one used on many forklifts used in warehouses around the world and is also an off the shelf component.
I have also heard the Tesla engineers have gone around to EP vendors at boat shows asking what kinds of battery requirements they might need. Apparently once Tesla clears up the back log of their orders for cars they will be looking to branch out into other areas like marine electric propulsion as their Giga battery factory comes online. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.


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