# How NOT to tie a cleat hitch



## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

OK, I admit it. I check how other people tie their lines on the cleats as I walk the docks. I can't help it. Until now I've just vaguely wondered why it seems so difficult for so many to tie such a simple hitch, but a few examples I've seen lately have pushed me over the edge to where I can no longer remain silent. How in the hell can it be so friggin' difficult to just make a round turn and some figure eights with a hitch at the end? Do people work at trying to make the most complicated knot ever created every time they tie their boat to the dock? Is there a secret competition for "most ridiculous imitation of a simple cleat hitch" that I'm unaware of? Am I just getting old and easily irritated (don't answer that, it will only pi** me off). Anyway, here are some examples of what I'm talking about. Feel free to add any that you see that might be worthy of a blue ribbon.



















this one gets extra credit for incorporating hanging a fender with the same mooring line that is on the cleat. Note the end on the cleat on the dock (no, this is not a permanent mooring line, it was a transient boat in the marina for one night).


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## UncleJim (Jul 27, 2009)

Always said some of the best times in boating is sitting at the dock


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

I've always wanted post the same thing...drives me nuts! Great examples in those pictures, I would wager a bet that more often than not those are power boaters but unfortunately you see a good amount of sailboats as well...arg


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## mbetter (Jun 13, 2010)

The cleat hitch is such a cool knot, too - quick to do and you can both tie and release with a loaded line.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Normally when I see thread on cleat hitches I roll my eyes and thing "nothing more interesting to post?"

But wow. I'm not even sure how to create those tangles. They took work.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Great laugh from those pics! I've never taken a pic, but think I need to start. I hope this thread runs for hundreds of posts. 

I completely agree. A proper cleat hitch is an acid test. Two rivers and a bridge.......

It really kills me when marina staff themselves can't do it correctly.


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

Can anyone post a picture of a recreational powerboat with spring lines?

.............

I thought so.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

I can't talk here...two days ago I came back to my mooring to see my inflatable on the beach. I wasn't paying attention when I lashed it to my float line.

Good thing my son was around, he came over and brought the hard dinghy out to rescue us....:laugher:laugher


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

How do you finish your cleat hitch when tying off at the dock? A billet (sp) and then a Flemish Flake?


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## sailvayu (Feb 3, 2013)

I always use the saying "Can't tie a knot..Tie a lot" LOL 
I see it all the time. But the real problem is this can become dangerous as it can be hard or impossible to untie a mess like those in an emergency.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jrd22 said:


> OK, I admit it. I check how other people tie their lines on the cleats as I walk the docks. I can't help it. Until now I've just vaguely wondered why it seems so difficult for so many to tie such a simple hitch, but a few examples I've seen lately have pushed me over the edge to where I can no longer remain silent. How in the hell can it be so friggin' difficult to just make a round turn and some figure eights with a hitch at the end? Do people work at trying to make the most complicated knot ever created every time they tie their boat to the dock? Is there a secret competition for "most ridiculous imitation of a simple cleat hitch" that I'm unaware of? Am I just getting old and easily irritated (don't answer that, it will only pi** me off).


Good reminder why any sailor should never, ever be without a knife...

I once got into a silly pissing match on another forum re the Bumfuzzles, and their proud proclamation that they had sailed around the world without ever having learned to tie a bowline... "Why should you care whether they know how to tie a proper knot? If every one on their boat turns out to be a Gordian, that's their problem, no?" was the opposing argument...

Well, if you happen to be in close proximity to another boat so secured in a blow, or other emergency, dealing with such bizarre mooring configurations on another boat, that cannot be untied under load, that might pose a threat to yours can be a serious problem... I had a very dicey situation years ago during a flood on the Erie Canal, when we had to try to adjust the lines on a nearby unattended boat that was secured in such an idiotic fashion... it was fortunate we had a few lines to spare aboard our own boat, there was no way we could release the extreme loads being placed on the rat's nest on the other without cutting a couple... (they had used another favorite technique, that of using a single very lengthy line to serve as both a bow, spring, and breast lines - drives me nuts when I see that one, too (grin))

Unfortunately, power boaters don't have exclusivity on this sort of stuff... It's pretty sad how often I see sailors tying a cleat hitch using an initial upside-down locking turn, that can be impossible to release under load...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Flemish flake/coil to finish is a nice touch. Missing that is not as egregious as an improper cleat hitch, unless 20 ft of line is just dog piled on the dock. A monkey braid is perfectly acceptable too, and one might argue better for the line.


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

Thanks. I have seen (and been taught) to finish my dock line cleat hitch two different ways- with and without an upside-down locking turn. I do not know which is correct.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

FirstCandC said:


> Thanks. I have seen (and been taught) to finish my dock line cleat hitch two different ways- with and without an upside-down locking turn. I do not know which is correct.


This is the only correct way: (note.... two rivers and a bridge is the way it will always appear when completed correctly)

Cleat Hitch | How to tie the Cleat Hitch for a Halyard | Boating Knots

Note that this site also has what they call a deck cleat hitch, which makes no sense whatsoever. It never actually hitches down at all. Ignore it.


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

jrd, that second picture looks like hair in a shower drain!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I completely agree. A proper cleat hitch is an acid test. Two rivers and a bridge.......
> 
> It really kills me when marina staff themselves can't do it correctly.


Yeah, don't get me started on dockhands who can's tie a proper cleat hitch, but have all your lines finished with Flemish coils before you've even shut the engine(s) down... Now, I don't have the stats to back this up, but I'd venture a guess that I have immediately undone as many Flemish Coils fashioned by dockhands as anyone else out there, they're just not my style... (grin)

If they're the owner's preference, I'll always leave the boat secured in that fashion, of course... But, if left over time, such coils can be rather unhealthy for the rope, some real nastiness can start breeding on the dark and damp underside... I've picked up boats in Florida that have sat for extended periods, and after having had to use some sort of prybar to open the hardened knot on the cleat, the tail of the rope winds up looking like it could be pressed into service as a Mosquito Coil...


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

The knot is certainly bad but who uses poly line for a dock line? That cleat will not be there for long if there is a good blow.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> ..... Flemish Coils fashioned by dockhands as anyone else out there, they're just not my style... (grin)
> 
> ...... I've picked up boats in Florida that have sat for extended periods, and after having had to use some sort of prybar to open the hardened knot on the cleat, the tail of the rope winds up looking like it could be pressed into service as a Mosquito Coil........


Fair point. Flemish flakes/coils are not necessarily good for the line, but they look professional and tidy. They should be undone cleaned, dried and redone from time to time. Perhaps in the opposite direction.

We leave our lines on the dock permanently. Even when away for a week or two. I do use the coil. I would say I kick them open about every two or three weeks and spray the line and dock down with the hose I am using to rinse the boat.

No doubt, I've found dust, dirt and occasionally the beginning of mold underneath them.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

If in a storm, where the pier is likely to be covered with water, be careful of "proper" and "improper" cleat hitches. They will work undone in a combination of wave action and line going slack as wind veers. Extra turns on the cleat don't look good but don't hurt...coiled line just comes uncoiled and holds nothing (but looks good). As added insurance, for storms, I put a couple of half hitches (last one reversed) in the tail of a cleated line around the standing part of the dock line. I've seen boats damaged in named storms after the cleated line worked loose due to wave action. (Had one of my own partially untie also and those extra turns may have saved the day.)

Also clove hitch variations to tie to the piling. They too will work loose if the line goes alternately loose and tight. A boat on my pier lost it's mast a couple of weeks ago in a bad thunder storm as a result of line coming loose. 

I'm sure lots of people will say it's a no-no, but I like to tie my lines to pilings with a couple of half hitches (again, last one reversed), and pulled tight to the piling. It stays where I put it and doesn't slip down the piling as do loose loops of any type that tend to work down piling, then hang up, causing dock line to grind on the boat's fiberglass (if you don't have chocks). Hard to get undone, but that's not too big a price to pay.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Fastest Way to Tie a Cleat Hitch


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

In our neck of the woods the sea otters seem to think a Flemish coil of line on the dock resembles a toilet seat... so, no, I don't use them )

I don't really care how many crosses one uses on the cleat, or if they use a full round turn before crossing, of if they even finish it with a hitch to lock it (larger boats/ships never do). All I want to see is the simple figure eight and if it's finished with a hitch that it lays the correct way. I use a full round turn and then three complete eights with a single hitch at the end. Simple and never jams even when the line is frozen and under severe strain.
Someone else must have taken some pics of particularly interesting attempts to secure the boat to the dock, I'd hate to think I'm the only one anal enough to do it ) Let's see them.


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## Sixpak (Jun 18, 2013)

JimMcGee said:


> (Link removed due to low post count) Fastest Way to Tie a Cleat Hitch


That's a neat 30 second video! Thanks!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JimMcGee said:


> Fastest Way to Tie a Cleat Hitch


Boy and I was proud of myself for being able to lasso a dock cleat with a spring line from the deck.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

jrd22 said:


>


Hey John,

You gotta admit, you ain't stealing that boat very quick unless you have a pocket knife!

Brian


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## G20 (Jul 13, 2011)

I may be fairly "green" to sailing/boating but at least I know how to tie a correct cleat hitch. This thread makes me feel better about myself.


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## mmazour (May 23, 2000)

JimMcGee said:


> Fastest Way to Tie a Cleat Hitch


Just found a new time killing challenge


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

I am just sayin' here,

It is nice to know and properly execute a knots. But I would not let the lack of knotting skills discourage one to sail. 

Like other has said: Can't tie a knot..Tie a lot". We all have to start somewhere. It is not how much you know, it is how fast you can learn all facet in sailing. 

I once know an old man who was a knot expert. His boat is full of many fancy knotting and whipping work. But he can't sail. He does not know how the use his motor to come back into his slip. He pushes and pulls by hand with the help of his crews to get back to the slip. I asked him what happens if the wind picks up. He told me that he would drop anchor out side the marina and get back to shore with the dinghy. 

Whatever floats his boat. I respect his way of life.


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## Sublime (Sep 11, 2010)

This thread makes me wish I got a pic of the not-so-level houseboat tied down to the dock with ratcheting tow straps.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Alexander the Great solved that problem with his sword....

Chop chop..... Knot untied.....


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Dock Six Chronicles: The Cleat Beat


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

bljones said:


> Dock Six Chronicles: The Cleat Beat


"Anybody got a knife?" Is a family joke! It ranks right up there with, "Can I help?" and "Watch this!"

7 adult children with families!

Down


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

This is precisely why I just 5200 my ropes to the dock. Much cleaner solution.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

smackdaddy said:


> This is precisely why I just 5200 my ropes to the dock. Much cleaner solution.


And no chafe either )


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

I do a lot of tows. We start out with a decent tow line at the beginning of fishing season and it gets shorter and shorter as the season progresses. The fricken fishermen tie a knot at their end that they can't untie at the dock and they cut it with their vicky. Is a bowline that hard to tie?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I regularly find myself tying, retying, attempting to tie down other boats on the dock when the wind picks up. inevitably, almost invariably, it seems like the boats with the sloppiest, crappiest "good enough"-est cleat ties are the ones at most risk of involuntary departure from the dock. a huge pile of rope that looks like the dung from a cordage-eating dinosaur burying a cleat doesn't overcome the fact that your lies are slack, frayed, in the wrong place and not doing the job.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

JimMcGee said:


> Fastest Way to Tie a Cleat Hitch


Too many locking hitches for my taste.


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

I find this thread soooooooooo validating . I am forever giving this sermon , " If the know isn't right....it's completely wrong & it takes the same amount of time to tie a good knot as it does a bad knot . When I go to untie a boat , I want to untie the boat , not start a new hobby .


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

The green one is the MEGAKNOT- surprised you all didn't know that


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I love to see the old clove hitch around the horn, secured by the quadruple half hitch. That's old school.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

What gets me is the power boats that tie "springs" from the midship cleat straight down to the nearest cleat on the dock, so whenever waves come through the boat jerks straight up on the cleat! I don't know how many times I see that!

I guess it's not ALL bad though; it is thanks to one of these idiots (and his insurance company) that I have a shiny new Awlgrip paint job! This particular lubber figured that midship tie-down was good enough and didn't even bother with a stern line! When a storm came through one night, his boat ripped that cleat right out of the dock, pivoted around the finger on his bow line, and spent the night grinding the propeller of his raised Merc 150 on my hull! Then he had the nerve to try to blame the club because the cleat ripped out!

Some people just don't get it!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

bljones said:


>


That one is truly magnificent - awe inspiring even. 

The really strange thing about it is that it appears the culprit actually has some sort of knowledge of ropework - a mooring mat?


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

Haha a mooring mat! Or a cockpit grate.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

mmazour said:


> Just found a new time killing challenge


OK....so what's the challenge:
1. Reading Sailnet
2. Practicing knot tying.
3. Photographing "interesting knots." ??????


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

bljones said:


>


What the hell _is _that???

It looks like a net got snagged over a cleat.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

eherlihy said:


> What the hell _is _that???
> 
> It looks like a net got snagged over a cleat.


That looks like someone daisy-chained the tail and then just wrapped it around the cleat. It looks really bad, but probably comes off quite easily. Once you take the terminating half-hitch off the daisy chain it all pulls out.

Not that I am defending the guy, I'm just sayin'!


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

Like most have said, i have found that most (well 60%) sailboat or powerboats owners don't know how to tie a proper cleat hitch. I teach it a lot. My wife (new to sailing) embarrasses a lot of old timers. 
I know guys that have been sailing for many years and can't get it right. 

It most be a really hard knot to tie!


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I particularly like the ones that fold the lock hitch over the wrong way, and they do it about six times on each cleat. You don't want that sucker to come loose!


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## MattSplatt (Dec 10, 2010)

bljones said:


>


This one is MAGNIFICENT!
I'm gonna learn how to do that, and ALWAYS tie up that way!

Edit: I reckon Jonesy tied this one himself and took a photo just to wind us up! Haw, haw! Sorry.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SchockT said:


> That looks like someone daisy-chained the tail and then just wrapped it around the cleat. It looks really bad, but probably comes off quite easily. Once you take the terminating half-hitch off the daisy chain it all pulls out.
> 
> Not that I am defending the guy, I'm just sayin'!


Yea, but the bitter end of the monkey braid looks like it's heading toward the water and, if you trace it back to where it starts, try to visualize what just the cleat looked like before that skipper said "you know, a nice monkey braid would really finish this off well" 

I've looked quite a bit for a cleat hitch of any origin under that mess. I think the monkey braid might have been tied and wrapped to intentionally throw the knot police off their trail.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Roger Long said:


> Can anyone post a picture of a recreational powerboat with spring lines?
> 
> .............
> 
> I thought so.


Was working on one yesterday...


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Lets see: To cleat a line as approved by the USN and Merchant Mariners; 
1. A round turn on the cleat base.
2. Followed by three to five figure eights on the horns. Natural fiber line three figure eights. Synthetic fiber lines you may need five figure eights. 

And no, I don't like to finish off with a half hitch or two... They jamb and you end up cutting your mooring line. 
But you can use the long bitter end of the line to take several round turns afterwards if you are really worried about slippage. Or just flemish coil the rest of the line down.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Flemish coils hold dirt on the deck, I coil the tail and loop over the lines. 

The true requirement of a good cleat hitch is that you can put it on with one hand and remove it with one hand - but not be able to shake it loose with all hands (on deck). 

Anything else fails my test. Multiple figure 8's add nothing to the security or strength and only add to complexity of un-tying.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Boasun said:


> Lets see: To cleat a line as approved by the USN and Merchant Mariners;
> 1. A round turn on the cleat base.
> 2. Followed by three to five figure eights on the horns. Natural fiber line three figure eights. Synthetic fiber lines you may need five figure eights.
> 
> ...


A slightly different point of view:

A mooring line that is too long is much better than one that is too short.

Excess line (that you might need on another day at another site) can be effectively handled by multiple figure eights on the cleat. They don't hurt anything and may actually help with line slippage, but may not be so pretty.

And if you can't take up the line on the cleat this way, round turns on the cleat are effective to take up the excess line, but don't look pretty.

If you are tied to a cleat that is subject to be under water, be aware that churning water and wave action on a cleated line going alternately slack and tight can untie that line. And in this case, finishing off the bitter end with half hitches can save the day precisely because they do jam. Since you have applied multiple figure eights and round turns to handle excess line, only the very bitter end is subject to be cut if you can't take a few minutes to work the half hitches loose. In this case, the half hitches are not about the line slipping under load, but rather the ease with which the proper cleat hitch can be undone by the water action. Someone said you should be able to easily tie/untie with one hand, and so can the churning of the water. Visually, this line mess now rates a photo posting on this thread.....ugly but effective.

A "proper" cleat hitch with excess line in a Flemish coil is pretty if that is one's biggest concern so long as you are sure the line cannot slip and the cleat will not be underwater.


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## Ferretchaser (Jan 14, 2011)

For boaters like that, they should hang a knife on a chain on every cleat. Makes leaving the dock a doddle 

ATB
Michael


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Okay...I thought I knew how to tie off onto a cleat, but was told by a neighbor some of my lines were incorrectly tied. 

The problem was not the knot - which is kinda 'duh' for a sailor - but which horn of the cleat the hitch started on. His contention was that in the bow you should start the rope on the forward horn; in the stern, on the back-facing horn. His point was that this spread the force more evenly across the two bolts holding the cleat down. I have tried to visualize this, and damn I think he may be correct!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Think of it this way. That first turn around the horn should be able to begin to take some load. If you turn under the near horn, the line is not holding on anything. Always start at the furthest horn from the load.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

I walked the docks today trying to find more than one cleat tied properly...I failed. Pictures to come


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