# Asymmetrical Spinnaker Cost?



## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

This will be our fifth season with Abracadabra. She came with a very nice sail complement, including two kites. But we're nearly always sailing short-handed (just The Admiral and I), or with inexperienced crew. Thus: We've only had a kite up once, and that was during a race, where we had an experienced skipper with his best foredeck person aboard.

To be honest, spinnakers scare the bejesus out of us!

But an asym kite... _that_ I think I can be comfortable with on our own.

So the question is: What kind of price range might we be looking at for a decent-quality asymmetrical spinnaker for our 30 ft. boat? Just trying to get an idea as to whether or not to even entertain the thought. I suspect not. There are many, many other things Abracadabra needs before she needs another sail, but it doesn't hurt to ask... and dream 

Thanks,
Jim


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

new about $ 2500 to $4000. used are hard to find but starting to show up more as the racers get new ones.


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

try ebay! used should be around $500.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I put a brand new Quantum aso on our Santana 30 for about $2500 and we don't regret it for a second. Many times it has made the difference between motoring and sailing because it gave us that much more boatspeed off the wind. 

Aside from the cost of the sail itself you have to consider how you are going to fly it. The best way is off a bowsprit, but plenty of people fly it off their bow roller or stem fitting. Also, are you planning to use a sock, or "snuffer" to ease handling? These are things that should be decided BEFORE you order a sail, and discussed with the sailmaker as they will affect how the sail is sized.
If you are very lucky you might find a used sail that fits the boat, however my experience has been that most people hang on to spinnakers until they are completely worn out. Beware of old "cruising spinnakers" because even if the cloth still has a bit of life left, they often are very ugly both in color scheme and in shape. There is a big difference between an old school cruising chute and a modern asymetric spinnaker.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Semi, my experience is the asymmetric needs to be sailed at hotter wind angles (can’t go “deep” like a symmetric) which will produce slower VMG than a symmetric or even a poled out genoa on non-planning boats like your Pearson. Jim Antrim told me that if your boat can’t “plane” than not to bother. People will go to great lengths to get better downwind performance out of their A-kites such as adding bow sprits and using whisker poles on the clew. You can still get into the same type of trouble with an A-kite with headstay wraps, broaches, bad sets and take-downs. The A-kite is not necessarily a panacea. The A-kite is easier to set up and can be gyb’d from the cockpit (a plus for single and double handing), but it still takes skill. Perhaps you can buy a sock first and use that with your symmetric. I also like your idea of buying a long whisker pole (and get some “dental floss” genoa sheets) and using that. If you are still looking, buying used is always an option. The vast majority of used ones are being sold by cruisers and weekenders who found out that they can be a hassle and want to recoup some of their investment. Kites for racers live brutal lives and are usually toast by the time they hit the used market.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Note that this is for a Beneteau 381, so a bit bigger. This would allow you to step down in size from what I used at least one step, and perhaps two, with resulting decreases in price. Just as a WAG I would figure you would save $1,000 or more over what I am spending. But since these prices are full retail, and sailmakers often give discounts in slow economies, and for being the first boat to try something out (so they can experament with your boat a little).

Copied from another website... Full thread at http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f124/cruising-asymetrical-and-furler-82625-3.html

I am actually working on adding this system right now on my cruising boat based upon my use of them while racing. They work great but there are a few issues that have to be addressed if you want to get reasonable performance and reliability. I am going to include retail prices for my boat, your prices may vary based upon spec, and size.

1) there are two types of asym furlers on the market. The first is a captive luff system, and are used for sails where the luff of the sail is kept under tension. These are primarily upwind asymetricals like code sails (0-2), and some gennikers. The deeper the cut of the sail the less well these furlers will work.

The second furler type is called a top down furler and instead of the torsion rope being sewn into the luff of the sail run independently of the sail itself. Nested the torsion line runs from the bottom swivel to the top swivel, and the sails starts to roll from the top (thus the name). These are designed for deep cut sails, everything from a true runner, up to a beam reach sail.

The problem with the top down furlers is that until Selden released their new one about a month ago the prices on them were very high. Roughly $3,000, or about three times the cost of a captive luff system. The new selden system retails at $1100, or about $400 more than I was quoted to an ATN sock.

2) Depending on the layout of the boat you may have to modify the bow to handle the furling system (these typically have continuious line systems). I have chosen to add a selden retrofit asym-pole at a cost of $700. The advantage of this is it allows easy inside jibeing of the sail, and a longer projection from the mast, increasing the size of the sail by about 30%. It makes the sail easier to set, and easier to handle.

All up the cost for the sail ($2,500) + furler ($1,100) + sprit (700) was right at $4,300 retail, plus installation costs.

At a minimum I was looking at sail plus sock or $3,200. For me it was worth the extra $1,100 for a number of reasons.

1) ease of jibeing the spinnaker
2) the spinnaker can be put up at the dock and left rolled up all day/weekend without worry. Then dropped when we are back in the slip.
3) all lines run to the cockpit
4) I sail short handed a lot, and I find it easier than a sock to deal with
5) less weight and windage aloft (my racing background)
6) for beer can PHRF the system cost us 3 seconds/mile
7) did I mention it can be run up the mast at the dock, and left up for the weekend?

Parts list

Bowsprit - Selden sel9909970 99mm Aluminum Bowsprit Kit - 10.4 Ft
Furler -Selden GX 10 top down asymetrical furler (this furler is new to the market in may)
Anti-torsion line -Selden 3/8 GX Anti-torsion line 52'
Furling line - made it myself 1/4" amsteel blue end for end spliced
Fair leads -Colligio marine stantion mount line guide (absolutely rediculous, but I had them already). 
Sheet blocks - Harken 75mm loup blocks
Halyard - endurabraid tapered halyard


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

GeorgeB said:


> Semi, my experience is the asymmetric needs to be sailed at hotter wind angles (can't go "deep" like a symmetric) which will produce slower VMG than a symmetric or even a poled out genoa on non-planning nboats like your Pearson. Jim Antrim told me that if your boat can't "plane" than not to bother. People will go to great lengths to get better downwind performance out of their A-kites such as adding bow sprits and using whisker poles on the clew. You can still get into the same type of trouble with an A-kite with headstay wraps, broaches, bad sets and take-downs. The A-kite is not necessarily a panacea. The A-kite is easier to set up and can be gyb'd from the cockpit (a plus for single and double handing), but it still takes skill. Perhaps you can buy a sock first and use that with your symmetric. I also like your idea of buying a long whisker pole (and get some "dental floss" genoa sheets) and using that. If you are still looking, buying used is always an option. The vast majority of used ones are being sold by cruisers and weekenders who found out that they can be a hassle and want to recoup some of their investment. Kites for racers live brutal lives and are usually toast by the time they hit the used market.


You are correct in that it is still more work handling a spinnaker than a genoa, but once you learn how to do it, it really isnt a big deal. Stumbles recomendation of a furler is a good one if it fits your budget. I almost bought one for my boat but I couldn't justify the extra cost for an old boat like mine. I might still get a snuffer, (the sail was cut for one) but right now we just douse it the old fashioned way. Of course I am a long time foredeck man so I am a veteran sail wrangler!

Your take on VMG isn't quite correct. Velocity Made Good refers to the portion of your boatspeed that takes you toward the mark. It is true that a boat running Dead Down Wind is making 100% vmg, but keep in mind that running DDW is also the slowest point of sail. The DDW boat may be doing 5kts, but a boat sailing a hotter angle could be doing 6.5kts and making better vmg than the DDW boat. Don't get me wrong, there are times when it pays to run deep, and those times will favor the symetric spinnakers, but very often running is not the fastest way to the bottom mark, and people just do it because they don't know any better. They just join the parade, and the boats that play the angles go right around them.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Schock,

The furler is a little more expensive than a sock, but for me it wasnt that much more. About $500. However if I had a slightly smaller spinnaker (like 3' shorter) I could have used a smaller furler that would have been only $200 more.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

When I was looking the furler was in the neighborhood of $1500 and up. The ATN sock was $250. Perhaps prices have changed in the last couple of years?

Regardless, now that I have discoverd that one of my primary winches has failed and needs replacement, the boat budget is blown!


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## HPLou (Feb 25, 2002)

Last week I stooped by my local sail loft and asked the same question for a 29' boat. After talking about everything I needed for an asym, I got a budget price of under $2000 for a complete set up.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

What do you mean by complete setup? What sailmaker? That is a good price for the sail alone!


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Selden the first of May came out with a top-down furler that is half to a third the price of the rest of the top down systems. Which is why i pulled the trigger. No question it is more than the sock, but for my boat it wasnt a huge difference.

Sorry about the winch, that really hurts.

My new spinnaker for a 38' boat was $2400 less if I used an off the rack spinnaker (from NorthSails).


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I should have made myself clear when discussing VMG. I was assuming everybody understood the course was DDW (forgive me o’ lord, for I race). You can carry a symmetric almost to the point of by the lee – say 170*. The polars for a North A2/3 is going to be somewhere around 130-145*. For a given “J”, a symmetric has more sail area. You really need to have lighting fast boat speed at that hot of an angle to match the VMG of the deeper sailing symmetric. According to the yacht designers (Jim Antrim), you need a planning boat to make that happen. Our displacement cruisers are at a disadvantage. Semi already has a 150 which is only a little bit smaller than an A-kite so if he uses a long enough whisker pole, he is going to get near kite performance. My personal preference for Semi would be to keep his symmetric and learn to fly that shorthanded and use a whisker pole for those days when kite flying is too much work. In defense of the A-kite – I personally like them when cruising with Mrs B. They are a real PITA when trying to “rock them out” and fly at a deeper angle. That is why I am contemplating spending a couple grand on a Selden removable bowsprit.


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

Check out the used sail distributors' websites, like Bacon in Annapolis. They have the info to give you the measurements for your class boat and the guidelines for assessing if a sail will fit. You can also search by class as well. I've found that the best time to search is the late fall. These sails are in demand and can go fast. The typical situation is a racer offloading a sail that they want to replace to be more competitive, and if it fits your boat it's a good deal. Some classes like the Megles go thru their asymmetrical and there are quite a few listed.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Ok: $2500-$4000 and not a whole heckuva lot easier for a short-handed crew than a sym kite.

Thanks for the feedback and discussion. I figure we'll pass on this one for now.

Jim


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

Try Bacons in Annapolis - showing used P30 asymmetricals from $525.00 to $9,999.00

Rik


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

SEMIJim said:


> Ok: $2500-$4000 and not a whole heckuva lot easier for a short-handed crew than a sym kite.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback and discussion. I figure we'll pass on this one for now.
> 
> Jim


Not true! The aso is much easier to handle short handed than a symetric when short handed. Nobody needs to go forward to gybe the pole. you don't need to adjust the guy when changing course. In fact I would say it is easier to sail short handed than a genoa and whisker pole, which also requires someone to go forward for gybes. The only thing that can be more difficult is launch and retrieval of the kite, and that too can be minimized. As far as displacement boats go, ease of handling is the single biggest advantage to the A-Kite!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

With our fractional rig our kite (symm) is probably the same size as Jim's. My wife and I routinely fly the kite, esp since we're on a 3 sail program and don't carry/fly a genoa.

We'll carry the spinnaker up to about 15knots true, maybe a bit above that if we're already set up. We don't usually gybe once our speed gets up over 7 knots. When it's manageable we'll gybe with me on the pole, she's on the sheets and guys, and we let Otto manage a 20-30 degree course change while we physically gybe the sails. It works well for us and greatly enhances longish downwind legs.

We've recently also acquired a smallish A sail, and honestly we have an easier time gybing the symmetrical. We've tried both inside and outside gybes with mixed results.. ultimately successful but always lots of line to pull and it seems a lot harder on the sail than a regular spinnaker gybe.

I'd also urge that they practice and learn how to handle the symm... it's a much more versatile sail. I would say that the autohelm really makes it reasonable to do so if double-handed gybes are on the program, though that does depend on the boat's directional stability, I suppose.

Otto also helps on the takedowns, we do not have a snuffer on either sail.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

To the experienced racer flying the symetric is not a big deal. Unfortunately my wife is nowhere near as experienced as I am. She handled the foredeck on my Hotfoot 20 ok, but she is very intimidated by our huge masthead symetric chute, and the 12ft pole that goes with it.

Definitely having the bowsprit makes all the difference when gybing the Aso. I run the sheet between the tack and the forestay so there is no danger of losing the lazy sheet under the bow, and there is enough space for the sail to slide through very smoothly. It only took a couple of tries for her to get the hang of it. The important thing is to keep easing the sail all the way through the turn, and don't try to gybe the sail until it is fully eased out. It is all in the timing and smooth steering. Yes you have to move alot of rope, but that is all you have to do!

If I were to get back into fully crewed racing I would definitely go back to the symetric, but for now it lives in the garage!

I did some match racing on J120s in San Diego this past winter, and let me tell you, gybing that monster asymetric in breeze was WAY more work than gybing a symetric on a similar sized boat! That was a 3 man operation!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I've found I can do ok with an asym with my boat. I can go pretty close to straight down wind with the tack poled out also. Does take some work

Another option for two, is to do as I did, had not flown a spin of any sort, but an asym that was 590# vs a 690 full size code 5 for my boat. This does allow a bit more fudge with two using it, as if it really pipes up, smaller is somtimes easier to get down! A sock also helps and worth it to a degree. 

I've also found outside sheet gybing is easier and better than inside. 've even pulled it off a few times steering with the tiller tween my knees, letting out one sheet with say the left, the letting go and pulling like mad on the right! You have to let that clew way out and forward before pulling, or things go HAYWIRE! Along with making sure the tack and clew are attached where they should....backwards does not work.........no comment as to how I know this.............

Marty


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

SchockT said:


> Not true! The aso is much easier to handle short handed than a symetric when short handed.


That's what I'd thought, but some of what I was reading here made me think otherwise. I guess I just misunderstood.

I'll keep this all in mind. Perhaps save the URL to this thread for future reference. For now: The Admiral and family CFO has nixed the idea due to financial constraints. Abracadabra's already gotten a new prop shaft, cutlass bearing and zinc, a new main halyard and shackle, and some new line for the windward sheeting traveler this season. She's already scheduled to get a bilge pump and _possibly_ a radio and a battery system (switches + echo charge) upgrade.

My grandiose plans for an asym kite and/or whisker pole are going to have to be put on hold for another season.

Thanks again, everybody, for the thoughts and discussion.

Jim


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

I think you can get a new spinnaker in that size from around 1200 -1500 us. There are variations in sails but that seems typical. I prefer a local loft for follow up.
There is a small furler by Beau Marine for about 700us which in that size does not require a non torsion rope. Although they quote only a 30m2 sail size in fact it has a swl of 950 kg the same as others quoting much bigger sail sizes, so in fact it will handle 50m2 in cruising use type wind ranges say under 15-20 knots apparent. Bits and pieces such as the furling line and possible new sheets would add a bit more.
I disagree that there is little advantage in tacking downwind for non planing boats, in the case of lightish winds and less than hull speed DDW. At 10 knots TWS you are not going to get 6 knots out of four AWS DDW.
Boats differ but even with a 110 genoa I find the sail fills at about 30 AWA (actually 150 downwind). Because the wind has moved forward the TWA is 20 or less (160 downwind). That is the angle that counts for VMG and at 20 requires a break even increase in speed of just over 6%. That is easy to achieve and beat. 
A planing racing boat may carry a spinnaker in 25 knots. A cruiser would not as hull speed would easily be achieved without it and he would still get some surfing.
I see some benefit for older perhaps less fit and shorthanded crews who only want a limited sail wardrobe. The comment that influenced me was the convenience makes it so easy that we use it often whereas the symm spinnaker would not be used.
Of course racers may have a variety of spinnakers and gennakers and usually the crew to handle them.
It seems to me the cruiser will go faster downwind with such a sail in the light, than he otherwise would even tacking assuming he even was ultimately headed DDW.
It isn't that cheap but isn't that much dearer, and would seem to make the light more pleasant than motoring.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Chris,

The Beau Marine 10S and 10M, both require torsion ropes. But because they are designed to be used with code zero sails the torsion rope is sewn into the luff of the sail. These furlers work great but require significant tension on the luff to furl properly. 

The advantage of the top-down furlers is that they can be used without a tight luff, so they can be used with down-wind sails like the North A 1-5 sails.

This was why I was so excited that Selden came out with a reasonably priced top-down furler. It starts at $850, so is a little more than a cheap luff furler, but works with a lot more sails.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Sorry not according to their maker. Sure the code zero does but not the assy. After all upwind you need a tight luff. Downwind no.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Chris,

I can't find anything on their website either way, except for the fact that 1) their website doesn't mention flying anything except for code zero's, 2) all code zeros require significant luff tension. To the best of my knowledge they make two products, both of which are code zero furlers, and sell as accessories the following...

Thimble for 010S
The thimble is to suit 8mm Torque rope.
Beau Marine recommend the use of these purpose designed thimbles to ensure maximum strength when full load is applied to the furler.
*
And a matching on for the other size furler.


If I missed a product of theirs I would love a link to it. Or a link to their use or installation instructions.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Sorry to hear it is off the budget - but you may want to keep an eye on Craig's List. A friend got a beautiful A for a 32' boat, complete with sock and sheets, for $800. Almost new - been used twice. May take a while, but it sounds like that would be okay for you! He certainly was lucky - I am very jealous!


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

They make 2 sizes of furlers, and have third coming up. a lighter racing version of the large one. While they use the term "Code zero gennaker" furlers the same unit can be used for Code Zeros or gennakers or asymmetric spinnakers.
The code zero requires a non torsion luff line as you say.
For a smaller asymmetric namely 50m2 or 550 sqft, no luffline is required as no great tension is required reaching and running. For furling it, I am unsure if the light vectran line in luff leech and foot plus the tape will give enough to provide a basis for winding the sail up, the alternative is a simple external line from tack to head at much lower cost. I don't know what would be required on larger asym it may be the same. Of course there is quite a price jump for the larger size.
I agree the site is lacking in information, but the owner is very approachable and helpful, even offering to help install one, and the furler has a good reputation amongst the several local sailmakers I have spoken to despite only being on the market less than a year I think. I have no connection with him but have spoken to him a few times.


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