# Cleaning Hull in the water



## tapske (Oct 17, 2012)

Advice humbly requested. 

Salt water-ish (brackish estuary, but mostly salt). I have a 32' full keel fiber-glass boat. I am an accomplished diver (NITROX cert. as well). I can see some minor algea growth on the upper part of my rudder, so I am sure the entire hull (below water) is in similar shape, or not far off. Obviously the amount of sunlight reaching it is a factor as well.

I intend to clean it myself since I already own all the scuba gear. However, I have never done this before, and have VERY limited hull maintenance experience of any kind. 

I went out and bought some of the course green (SOS type) of scrubbies. The type usually found in the sponge/dishwashing section of the grocery store. 

Then, on the way home, I started thinking.... What if these are too course/hard.... and they do a great job eliminating the current growth... but then they cause countless tiny scratches that not only compromise the longevity of the hull coat... but also allow countless microscopic crevices for new marine life to get a foothold....thereby increasing my future problems 10 fold.

Perhaps, I'm over thinking this. I would really appreciate anyone's input that has first hand experience in doing this. Any advice on proper products to use...and which ones to stay away from. 

Thank you !!

---Fair winds...

---tapske...
NIF


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## CarolynShearlock (Dec 3, 2010)

I wrote a pretty detailed article on bottom cleaning for Cruising World back in 2006. Rather than try to repeat it all here, I'll just link to the manuscript for the article, which is on my blog (as far as I know, the article is no longer on the CW site):

DIY Bottom Cleaning

Hope that answers some of your questions . . . being a diver, you've got one skill that's helpful!


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

30' Boat in brackish water. Lottsa slime this summer. Scuba diver with own gear. This summer I tied lines under the boat from side to side. I used this to hold on to while scrubbing with the other hand and a plastic bristle brush. Slime came off very easy. Green scrubbie pads are indeed too course. About an hour to do the job. Quite the aerobic work out. I'm glad I never smoked. Visibility sucked BTW, so after a while your scrubbing by feel.
Oh I forgot I used a pony tank instead of full 80. Much lighter and less bulk in the water.


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

That is a great article, Carolyn. I wish I had known to clean out barnacle cuts right after getting out of the water the first time I scrubbed the bottom on my boat - I had one cut on my elbow that got infected and it took forever for it to heal. Now I wear gloves and a dive skin every time I go under the boat.


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## tapske (Oct 17, 2012)

CarolynShearlock said:


> I wrote a pretty detailed article on bottom cleaning for Cruising World back in 2006. Rather than try to repeat it all here, I'll just link to the manuscript for the article, which is on my blog (as far as I know, the article is no longer on the CW site):
> 
> DIY Bottom Cleaning
> 
> Hope that answers some of your questions . . . being a diver, you've got one skill that's helpful!


THANK YOU CAROLYN !!

In one swoop you provided more information than I hoped for in the coming week !

Great basic info... technical realistic approach.. and some good FYI hints....all sprinkled with the safety conscious angle. 

*hugs* you probobly saved me a Texas size can of frustration. Or, at the very least, a fair amount of second guessing my actions.....(two feelings that are not mutually independent..)

Thanks again,
---tapske...


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I do all of our hull cleaning and I use a long handled brush I made by copying one that my friend Ray (Erps here on SN) has. It's basically just a long section of 2" or maybe 2 1/2" PVC pipe with a 45 near the end and a "T" section at the working end. I started with coarse brushes on it but they were too aggressive on our ablative paint so I just wrapped some old carpet around the brushes and it does a good job. Ray dives and cleans his boat too and he told me that using the brush first saves about half the time diving, and it's a lot easier. He's right, you just need to dive to do the keel and skeg/rudder, and the prop and look for any spots you might have missed with the brush. Of course you need a dock to work from so it's not going to help much if you are on a mooring or anchored. I think I've seen the brushes advertised commercially but they're simple and cheap to make.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I've been happy with berber carpet cut in 6-inch squares. A professional hull cleaner suggested this to me. The loops give it just the right amount of abrasiveness and they shed slime nicely.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)




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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

a easy way for diving scrubing is getting one of those suction cup dent pullers works great for holding or self in place.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)




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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

tapske said:


> Advice humbly requested.
> I went out and bought some of the course green (SOS type) of scrubbies. The type usually found in the sponge/dishwashing section of the grocery store.
> 
> Then, on the way home, I started thinking.... What if these are too course/hard.... and they do a great job eliminating the current growth... but then they cause countless tiny scratches that not only compromise the longevity of the hull coat... but also allow countless microscopic crevices for new marine life to get a foothold....thereby increasing my future problems 10 fold.


*Rule Number One- Always clean your hull with the softest cleaning media possible.*

What that turns out to be is completely dependant on the age and condition of your anti fouling paint and how foul you have allowed it to become. You will not hasten fouling by creating "countless microscopic crevices." Fouling organisms will begin attaching themselves to your hull rgardless of how smooth or not your anti fouling paint is. But what you do not want to do is remove more paint than necessary during in-water hull cleaning. By using cleaning media (be it a scrubber, brush, carpet or whatever) that is overly abrasive, you will not only shorten your paint's lifespan but will introduce more copper into the water column than you otherwise would.

Clean your hull relatively frequently and gently. This is the way to maximize your boat's performance both under power and sail and minimize your fuel consumption and carbon emissions.


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

Several times a summer I get out a little early for a race and offer two scrubbing pads to a couple of my young fit crew members. In about 15 minutes the hull and keel and rudder are spotless. I tie a couple of lines at the forward and aft cleats along each side to give them some thing to hang on to, which makes it easier for them.

I am in fresh water so use VC- 17 which is hard and does not come off easily and every year at haul out I have a nice clean bottom.

Gary


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

FYI here in the Pacific Northwest it's against the law to clean ablative bottom paint bottoms in water. Hard bottom paints are OK. A big fine if you get caught. Worth checking in your area.


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## floridajaxsailor (Aug 4, 2010)

great post, enjoyed the video too

I have this project on my list-
will use the brush trick on dock, then finish amid the waters off Sanibell 
will be using snorkel gear... 
many years of underwater swims- once beat my Uncle's record, six lengths of his swimming pool without rising for air
alas


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Waltthesalt said:


> FYI here in the Pacific Northwest it's against the law to clean ablative bottom paint bottoms in water. Hard bottom paints are OK. A big fine if you get caught. Worth checking in your area.


I am not aware of any other states with actual honest-to-God laws on the books restricting in-water hull cleaning.

Here is a link to the Washington Dept. of Ecology web page pertaining to the law in question:

Hull Cleaning and Boat Washing | Clean Green Boating | Washington State Department of Ecology


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## tapske (Oct 17, 2012)

FST BTTMS,
Thank you so much for taking the time to make and post those videos. ven though I have never done this job before, I am now completely confident, thanks to you and other posts, that I will have no problem tackling this little piece of maintenance from here on out.
Thanks again, fair winds,

---tapske...
NIF


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

tapske said:


> FST BTTMS,
> Thank you so much for taking the time to make and post those videos. ven though I have never done this job before, I am now completely confident, thanks to you and other posts, that I will have no problem tackling this little piece of maintenance from here on


You're very welcome. Thanks for looking at them.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

If your boat is small enough, or tender enough, you can do a pretty good job with a regular deck brush with a long handle.

Take a halyard to the next finger over from yours, tie a truckers hitch several feet up - this takes some experimentation - loop the free end through the dock cleat - this is the one place those miserable dock rings actually work better - loop back up through the hitch and heave the boat over.

Cleat or tie it off and go and scrub the exposed side of the boat.

Undo the hitch, take the line to a finger on the other side and repeat.

I could get all but the bottom 1/2 of the fin on my 26' quarter tonner using this technique. A longer handle would have fixed even that.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I've always wanted to have a hookah onboard for this. Any recommendations? It really only needs to be the most basic, single hose shallow system.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> I've always wanted to have a hookah onboard for this. Any recommendations? It really only needs to be the most basic, single hose shallow system.


http://www.airlinebyjsink.com/
Brownie's Third Lung
Sea Breathe, The Electric Snorkel


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

smallboatlover said:


> a easy way for diving scrubing is getting one of those suction cup dent pullers works great for holding or self in place.


These are called "Hold Tites"


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Fstbttms said:


> Air Line Diving System | The Air Line by J. Sink
> Brownie's Third Lung
> Sea Breathe, The Electric Snorkel


Thanks. Those the usual suspects I've seen. It seems it would take $1500 with tax and/or shipping to get into a basic unit.

That's several years of paying someone else to do it. Its only incremental value is checking on zincs or the possible untangling of a prop. My marina does not permit divers, which I could otherwise have come during the week. Its a bit of a drag having to schedule the cleaning out in the bay and wait for it, when I have sailing to do. Although, it would be even longer to do myself, just more flexible.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Thanks. Those the usual suspects I've seen. It seems it would take $1500 with tax and/or shipping to get into a basic unit.


You can put a hookah together yourself. It ain't rocket surgery and will shave hundreds off the cost. Most hull cleaners do this.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Fstbttms said:


> You can put a hookah together yourself. It ain't rocket surgery and will shave hundreds off the cost. Most hull cleaners do this.


Do tell. Since I only need supplemental pressure to maybe 7 feet below the surface, perhaps I could cheapen up the compressor and save more.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Do tell. Since I only need supplemental pressure to maybe 7 feet below the surface, perhaps I could cheapen up the compressor and save more.


I know little about this...

I think there's a trick to getting the right compressor.
A diving compressor allows no oil into the air.
A land compressor, for cars etc, has oil in the air, usually.

You die if you suck in oil.

So to make an economical one you need to buy a land type compressor that will not introduce oil. I think electric ones qualify.

I believe there's achievable solutions ya just gotta find the Knowledge first


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Yup, it get the contaminated air issues. I was a dive instructor many years ago, from air to mixed gas to re-breathers. 

I would love to know from FastB where one finds the parts. I'm sure I could source the hoses and regulators, but the compressor is the key. For very shallow depth, it would not need to be very powerful. You can suck through a plain hose for a few feet below the surface.

I'm starting to envision building one in a large plastic tool box that I would secure to the side deck and just drop a hose over the side.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Do tell. Since I only need supplemental pressure to maybe 7 feet below the surface, perhaps I could cheapen up the compressor and save more.


I don't ever recommend going cheap on the compressor, but plenty of guys do it. You can get away with the cheapest Chinese-made crap if you want to.

You major concern is using an *oil-less* compressor. I wouldn't go with one that generated less than 3/4 horsepower, whether it be gas or electric powered. You also want Grade-E breathing hose. While you may be OK buying the Home Depot $99 special for your compressor, you *DO NOT* want to use pneumatic tool hose to breathe from. Your best best is probably to buy your air hose and 2nd stage regulator from an online hookah retailer. That way you know the hose is suitable and the regulator is designed to be used with a hookah rig. Not all off-the-shelf 2nd stages will work well when subjected to the lower air pressures generated by a hookah (as opposed to being used with a tank.) Plus, the air hose you buy from a hookah retailer will have an in-line filter, something that might problematic to try to do yourself.

But most importantly- you should be SCUBA certified before ever breathing compressed air underwater.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> I would love to know from FastB where one finds the parts.


Here are the two compressors I build my hookahs with:

*Thomas 1020*










Thomas Air-pac, 1020

*Thomas 1207*










Compressors - 1207PK80 | GD-Thomas


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

old credit cards and plastic spatulas work pretty well to get barnacles off.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

sck5 said:


> old credit cards and plastic spatulas work pretty well to get barnacles off.


I find credit cards work well for virtually all the work on my boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Fstbttms said:


> Here are the two compressors I build my hookahs with:
> 
> *Thomas 1020*
> 
> *Thomas 1207*


Can't find the 1020 available anywhere. The 1207 is close to a grand, which probably defeats the purpose of building my own.

To have value for me, the hookah needs to be usable away from the dock. I can not dive in the marina.

I could run the genset to power these, but I would have to be that much more careful with exhaust. It should not be a big problem if clocked downwind on the hook or mooring.

Any 12v thoughts?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

AIR-LINE 12 Volt Hookah Compressor Package
Portable 12 V 1/3HP DC Compressor (call about other models)
Long 60' swiveled air hose with harness clip
Industrial 5' Compressor hose
Harness with ditchable weight pockets
Adjustable regulator W/ comfo swivel
An excellent, Safe choice for Boaters
ONLY $1095.00, Ask about our special!

Hookah direct drive scuba diving equipment sales. Hose diving hookah

Good notes on that website too.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Can't find the 1020 available anywhere. The 1207 is close to a grand, which probably defeats the purpose of building my own.
> 
> To have value for me, the hookah needs to be usable away from the dock. I can not dive in the marina.
> 
> ...


The 1020 is only available new through a pretty limited dealer network. You'd have to contact Thomas to find the one closest to you. Plus, it retails at over $600, so that may be more than you were looking to spend as well. That being said, I haven't bought a new unit of either flavor new for years. craigslist and eBay are your friends. I bought a used, clean and working 1207 on craigslist a couple of months ago for about $80, including shipping.

A 12-volt hookah may serve your needs. They tend to be lightly built and have a comparatively short runtime, so are generally not suitable for use in the hull cleaning business. I have never used one, so can't really offer an informed opinion about any particular model.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> I could run the genset to power these, but I would have to be that much more careful with exhaust. It should not be a big problem if clocked downwind on the hook or mooring.


Most commercially available gas-powered hookahs have a simple snorkle air intake that draws air from about 3' above the unit. Assuming you had your electric unit on deck, that would likely be more than high enough to be out of any exhaust you might make running your genset.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Fstbttms said:


> A 12-volt hookah may serve your needs. They tend to be lightly built and have a comparatively short runtime, so are generally not suitable for use in the hull cleaning business. I have never used one, so can't really offer an informed opinion about any particular model.


For sure, 12v would be useless if you were in the water all day.

I'm thinking I need 60 to 90 mins of runtime.

Good advice on looking at ebay, etc. I may give it a shot.

I'm curious, what first stage pressure do you run the compressor at? I presume it just cycles on and off if you aren't drawing enough?


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm curious, what first stage pressure do you run the compressor at? I presume it just cycles on and off if you aren't drawing enough?


Depending on how many hours are on the compressor, I'll run it at 75-100 psi. As the piston rings wear, it needs to be turned up, until I rebuild it. Also, when going deep (15'-30'), I'll always run it full blast. The compressor runs continuously while I'm in the water. Both model compressors have an overpressure valve that exhausts excess air pressure when I'm not drawing on it. You will find some commercially available hookahs with reserve tanks (and divers using cheapo hotdog-style air compressors) that will cycle on and off as the pressure in the tanks varies, but this kind of extra plumbing and weight is unecessary. My compressors run for many thousands of hours without maintenance and at the depths we're talking about, there is really no need for a reserve tank as your air hose will hold enough air for you to get back to the surface should the compressor shut down for some reason.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I have cleaned my hull by dragging a cheap tarp under it ,letting the poly tarp float up against my hull, then pouring a gallon of bleach in it and leaving it overnight. Next day all growth fell off. Works for weeds but not barnacles. 
At sea, one can pull a rope under your forefoot and saw it back and forth across the hull working your way back to the keel, then doing the same from the keel to the skeg. Doesn't get everything, but removes a lot, if the growth is thick and heavy.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Brent Swain said:


> I have cleaned my hull by dragging a cheap tarp under it ,letting the poly tarp float up against my hull, then pouring a gallon of bleach in it and leaving it overnight. Next day all growth fell off. Works for weeds but not barnacles.
> At sea, one can pull a rope under your forefoot and saw it back and forth across the hull working your way back to the keel, then doing the same from the keel to the skeg. Doesn't get everything, but removes a lot, if the growth is thick and heavy.


Both somewhat effective methods if you don't care about the environment or your anti fouling paint.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Millions of gallons of bleach get poured down drains by land lubbers all the time, with far less justification. Chlorine evaporates quickly.
By the time I have that heavy a growth, the antifouling is dead anyway.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Brent Swain said:


> Millions of gallons of bleach get poured down drains by land lubbers all the time, with far less justification.


So that makes it OK for you to do it? Jeezus.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> Originally Posted by Brent Swain
> Millions of gallons of bleach get poured down drains by land lubbers all the time, with far less justification


.

You could sustitute the word holding tank sewerage here....I am hoping you dont do that with the same rationale...... doesnt make it right to do


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Fstbttms said:


> So that makes it OK for you to do it? Jeezus.


Bleach is fine.



> . A Risk Assessment Report (RAR) conducted by the European Union on sodium hypochlorite conducted under Regulation EEC 793/93 concluded that this substance is safe for the environment in all its current, normal uses.[25] This is due to its high reactivity and instability. Disappearance of hypochlorite is practically immediate in the natural aquatic environment, reaching in a short time concentration as low as 10−22 μg/L or less in all emission scenarios. In addition, it was found that while volatile chlorine species may be relevant in some indoor scenarios, they have negligible impact in open environmental conditions. Further, the role of hypochlorite pollution is assumed as negligible in soils.


On a less scientific note....Remember mums all over the world wash diapers in it and have any babies got a burned bum?


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Yes, and it didn't take long to find a source saying that chlorine beach is very bad when introduced into the environment:

_"Unfortunately, chlorine also poses a significant risk to the environment, and was even used as a chemical weapon during World War I. Many countries have banned chlorine bleach or restricted its use in an effort to protect the environment and human health.
Water Pollution
Manufacturers who use chlorine bleach often release it into local water bodies along with other liquid industrial waste. *Once it reaches the water, chlorine reacts with other minerals and elements to form a host of dangerous toxins. These toxins, including dioxins, furams and PCDDs are often referred to as "persistent organic pollutants" because they linger in the water or soil and take many years to disappear.* Greenpeace calls dioxin one of the most dangerous chemicals known to science, and warns that it can contribute to cancer, endocrine disorders and other serious health effects. The West Virginia University Extension also links chlorine-based compounds, like dioxins, with low sperm count, testicular cancer and breast cancer due to their ability to mimic human hormones."_

The Effects Of Chlorine Bleach On The Environment | LIVESTRONG.COM


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Mine was Wikipedia. I should have quoted it.

Bleach - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What is law is law. When someone changes it I will listen.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Bleach. It's hard to know who to believe anymore, as most decide first, then look for evidence.

I have to admit, the Livestrong article seems low on scientific reference and quickly jumps to dioxins. While pointing out that bald eagles were nearly decimated by dioxins, being an article on bleach are we to believe that bleach killed the bald eagles? It also refers to bleach being a chemical weapon, but it did need to be combined with other chemicals, which was left out. Charcoal becomes gunpowder if you mix it with other chemicals. I'm still happy to have charcoal around.

If I were to guess, because its all we are usually left to do with environ issues anymore, bleach toxicity to the environment is most likely a function of concentration. Personally, I would never pour it straight into the water, but I can't say I know why.


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## Dick6969 (Mar 4, 2012)

I have found that an ice scraperworks well on the barnacles
without to much damage to the bottom coat.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Back in the 60's a device similar to that described by Brent was widely used, called a "boat bath" it was a plastic liner in your slip. After you pulled the boat in you poured in a gallon of bleach, they worked well and you didn't need to clean the bottom between races.
We also used bleach to catch octopus by pouring bleach over a rock at low tide and gaffing them when they scrambled out. Don't know how much this affected the environment but the octopi sure didn't like it.
Either practice will land you in jail here now.
I used to clean bottoms in my youth, it is truly a PITA, I think most divers are a bargain, you couldn't afford what I would charge.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

capttb said:


> Back in the 60's a device similar to that described by Brent was widely used, called a "boat bath" it was a plastic liner in your slip.


These are still around. Seem to me most widely used in Oz. Don't see them so much here in the States. And yes, the dirty little secret about their use is that they require regular additions of chlorine.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

capttb said:


> ....I used to clean bottoms in my youth, it is truly a PITA, I think most divers are a bargain, you couldn't afford what I would charge.


Around here, while they charge by the foot, it equates to around $100 per hour.

There is overhead and travel time between jobs that waters down the profit. However, I think it's keeping the calendar full that's the issue, which you know here will go to zero for 6 months per year. Otherwise, it seems it can be a petty good living.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> I think it's keeping the calendar full that's the issue, which you know here will go to zero for 6 months per year. Otherwise, it seems it can be a petty good living.












Most of the U.S. recrational boating market is on the water 12 months per year. It's not keeping the calendar full that's the issue for busy hull cleaners. On the contrary, the issue is finding enough time and reliable help to get all of the work done.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

The marina nearest to my home/pier does 1 hour hauls for 3 bucks a foot, including power wash. 

Since I do NOT swim with fish this works for me.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Bleach. It's hard to know who to believe anymore, as most decide first, then look for evidence.
> 
> I have to admit, the Livestrong article seems low on scientific reference and quickly jumps to dioxins. While pointing out that bald eagles were nearly decimated by dioxins, being an article on bleach are we to believe that bleach killed the bald eagles? It also refers to bleach being a chemical weapon, but it did need to be combined with other chemicals, which was left out. Charcoal becomes gunpowder if you mix it with other chemicals. I'm still happy to have charcoal around.
> 
> If I were to guess, because its all we are usually left to do with environ issues anymore, bleach toxicity to the environment is most likely a function of concentration. Personally, I would never pour it straight into the water, but I can't say I know why.


The dioxin that was killing the eagles was the effluent of pulp mills - *10's of thousands* of gallons being dumped regularly. Howe Sound, where I live is a long, deep fjord and was virtually devoid of life a number of years ago for this very reason. Once the dumping stopped the sea life returned in abundance in a short time.

Using a little bleach on a boat ain't quite the same thing - it DOES evaporate and break down in sunlight very quickly.

This is just another case of environmental absolutism IMHO.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

SloopJonB said:


> Using a little bleach on a boat ain't quite the same thing - it DOES evaporate and break down in sunlight very quickly.


You are rationalizing. One boater pouring bleach into the water may not be a disaster, but what if every boater poured bleach into the water? As a sailor, your attitude should be to be part of the solution, not part of the problem, IMHO.

*Water pH*
Bleach is highly alkaline, with a pH of 12. Normal water pH is a neutral 6 to 8. Fish are extremely sensitive to changes in pH, so the pH level rise that comes from adding such an alkaline substance to the water can raise it to an unsustainable level. According to water experts Lenntech, high water pH chaps the skin of fish and a level of over 9.6 can cause death, inability to pass metabolic wastes and cause damage to gills and eyes. It can also harm juvenile fish development, as well as aquatic plants.

*Toxicity*
Chlorine bleach by itself is highly caustic and toxic to fish. It reacts with cell membranes and proteins, and then breaks them down. Since fish "breathe" water through their gills, the bleach enters their bodies and affects both their insides and outsides. In addition, it eats away the protective, slimy covering on the outside of most fish's bodies. This critical coat protects fish from disease and parasites. All of these internal and external actions of bleach eventually kill the fish. The material data sheets for chlorine bleach from manufacturers such as Corcraft and Sentry Industries warns against releasing its product into surface water due to its toxicity to aquatic life.

*Organochlorines*
Chlorine bleach breaks down and forms organochlorines in water. One particularly toxic organochlorine is dioxin. These compounds are toxic to all life, including aquatic life. The fish ingest these compounds and become contaminated, which then contaminates any creature that eats them. Organochlorines have been linked to cancer and developmental disorders, as well as neurological, immune system and reproductive issues.

Effects of Chlorine Bleach on Aquatic Life | eHow.com


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Fstbttms said:


> Effects of Chlorine Bleach on Aquatic Life | eHow.com


All true and I'm not talking about everyone with a boat indiscriminately pouring bleach by the gallon into the water on a regular basis.

I'm suggesting a sense of proportion be applied instead of the absolutism being displayed here. Bottom paint is a lot more toxic than bleach yet the local marina, which is a hurricane hole with very minimal tidal washing, holds nearly 1000 boats and it is full of marine life - everything from schools of fish to swans to blue herons to seals & otters - they appear to be doing just fine.

Obviously we don't want everyone using Brent's tarp method as an alternative to normal bottom maintenance but the small amount of bleach introduced by the average boater is harmless to the environment.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> ........This is just another case of environmental absolutism IMHO.


A phenomenon which prevents substantially more progress and perhaps even enduring solutions. Ironically.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Fstbttms said:


> You are rationalizing. One boater pouring bleach into the water may not be a disaster, but what if every boater poured bleach into the water? As a sailor, your attitude should be to be part of the solution, not part of the problem, IMHO.
> 
> *Water pH*
> Bleach is highly alkaline, with a pH of 12. Normal water pH is a neutral 6 to 8. Fish are extremely sensitive to changes in pH, so the pH level rise that comes from adding such an alkaline substance to the water can raise it to an unsustainable level. According to water experts Lenntech, high water pH chaps the skin of fish and a level of over 9.6 can cause death, inability to pass metabolic wastes and cause damage to gills and eyes. It can also harm juvenile fish development, as well as aquatic plants.
> ...


If everyone wanted to cruise on your boat , live in your home at your street address,drive your car, sleep with your woman, it wouldn't work, so you shouldn't be allowed to do any of the above, because if everyone ( 7 billion people on the planet) did that, it wouldn't work.

Man that is the most feeble and often repeated, bogus argument I've ever heard.

Your picture shows you to be a diver. What becomes of the extremely toxic ablative antifouling you scrub off? Doesn't count, because you did it by the rule book?
Ya sure!


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Brent Swain said:


> If everyone wanted to cruise on your boat , live in your home at your street address,drive your car, sleep with your woman, it wouldn't work, so you shouldn't be allowed to do any of the above, because if everyone ( 7 billion people on the planet) did that, it wouldn't work.
> 
> Man that is the most feeble and often repeated, bogus argument I've ever heard.


So, using your fallacious logic, dumping your used motor oil down the storm drain is OK, because not everybody who owns a car is going to do the same thing. That pretty much sum up your arguement? 



Brent Swain said:


> Your picture shows you to be a diver. What becomes of the extremely toxic ablative antifouling you scrub off? Doesn't count, because you did it by the rule book?


Look, we live in a technological society. We are going to cause some pollution no matter what, that's just the name of the game. Yes, metal-based anti fouling paints pollute. But you have to weigh the pollution caused by anti fouling paints against the increased air and water pollution caused by boats being used with foul bottoms because they don't have an effective anti fouling coating on them. Not to mention the increased fuel consumption those boats would experience. But to intentionally add to the the damage recreational boating already does to the environment by pouring chlorine bleach into the water, simply because it is convenient to do so? That is the choice of a douchebag, my friend. Even if one person doing it doesn't mean the world is going to end, it's still not the right thing to do.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Environmentalists have banned hull cleaning divers in my harbor. They don't buy the rationalization.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Environmentalists have banned hull cleaning divers in my harbor. They don't buy the rationalization.


If they really wanted to effect change, they'd ban the use of copper-based anti fouling paints in your harbor. In-water hull cleaning actually contributes very little metal to the water column.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

In the same way that a small amount of cleaner contributes little to the water? 

The comparison between industrial dumping, and a small amount of cleaner on a boat is the same. 10, 000 gallons of toxins from industrial usage is not the same. The analogy about everyone doing it applies just as well to the cleaning and small amount of copper released, except that the copper stays around longer.

Moderation and reasonable precautions are a much better solution than absolute bans based on lack of understanding of differences in scale. 


Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Fstbttms said:


> If they really wanted to effect change, they'd ban the use of copper-based anti fouling paints in your harbor. In-water hull cleaning actually contributes very little metal to the water column.


It goes to the point. Environmental arguments are almost never rational. Seems we're on the same page.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> It goes to the point. Environmental arguments are almost never rational. Seems we're on the same page.


Perhaps. But in your marina's instance, I'd almost be willing to bet that rather than "environmentalists" banning hull cleaning, it is actually the marina operator and their lawyers who are looking to reduce their exposure. No altruistic love of the environment involved. That's certainly been the scenario here in California.

Whatever is the case in your harbor, it was a decision made in ignorance of the facts.


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## j34035 (Nov 10, 2006)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> AIR-LINE 12 Volt Hookah Compressor Package
> Portable 12 V 1/3HP DC Compressor (call about other models)
> Long 60' swiveled air hose with harness clip
> Industrial 5' Compressor hose
> ...


I bought a 12 volt unit from jsi. It works great and you can be down for a couple of hours without running your batteries down. I did buy a full face mask which makes it all much easier. IST makes a pretty good silicone full face for about a hundred bucks. It would have been cheaper to hire the bottom cleaning done, but now I do it far more often. 
DD


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

j34035 said:


> I bought a 12 volt unit from jsi. It works great and you can be down for a couple of hours without running your batteries down. I did buy a full face mask which makes it all much easier. IST makes a pretty good silicone full face for about a hundred bucks. It would have been cheaper to hire the bottom cleaning done, but now I do it far more often.
> DD


So, all in, maybe $1500 with mask, tax and shipping? I get tempted to drop that on a unit, but only when mildly intoxicated. 

Its just seems impossible to justify and I'm also concerned that it would not get used enough to keep it from decomposing in the lazz.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> So, all in, maybe $1500 with mask, tax and shipping? I get tempted to drop that on a unit, but only when mildly intoxicated.


I enjoy putting together my own hookahs and find I can typically do it for less than half the going retail price for identical units, using the exact same components.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Fstbttms said:


> I enjoy putting together my own hookahs and find I can typically do it for less than half the going retail price for identical units, using the exact same components.


Do you know where to find the 2hr 12v compressor these guys use? I would love to put together a kit, perhaps inside a large toolbox, with battery, compressor and charger.

I'm still very interested in the 110v unit you mentioned early, but they are pretty hard to find.

Would you essentially be comfortable with any oil-less compressor one wanted to use? Or is there some spec minimum you look for (CFM, PSI, etc?)


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Do you know where to find the 2hr 12v compressor these guys use? I would love to put together a kit, perhaps inside a large toolbox, with battery, compressor and charger.
> 
> I'm still very interested in the 110v unit you mentioned early, but they are pretty hard to find.
> 
> Would you essentially be comfortable with any oil-less compressor one wanted to use? Or is there some spec minimum you look for (CFM, PSI, etc?)


Almost every commercially available hookah I've ever seen is based on a Thomas compressor (be it gas, electric or battery powered), and frankly, I wouldn't use anything else. You can get away with using any oil-less compressor (as long as it provides adequate airflow and pressure.) I think 3/4 hp/100 psi/2+ cfm would be minimum performance specs for an electric compressor.

Here is a link to the Thomas web site. You can browse the catalog to find the 12-volt compressor that J. Sink is using:

http://www.gd-thomas.com/

The Thomas 1020 is currently only available new through a rather limited network of distributors. You'd need to contact Thomas to find the one closest to you. I've had good response from the SoCal distributor-

Chester Paul Company: The Distributor

I am currently buiding a hookah based on another popular Thomas model, the 1207. This compressor is used not only in many high-end hookahs (I think all the Air Line by J. Sink electric hookahs use it) but it is also used to power many of the Thomas workshop/jobsite compressors, which can be found in abundance on craigslist. So there are many more 1207s out there than 1020s. I bought a clean, working unit on craigslist a couple of months ago for $80 (including shipping) although they typically go for around $350 used (interestingly, Thomas workshop/jobsite compressors using the 1207 can be had used for under $200.) For me, the 1207 will be the compressor of choice going forward.










_Edit: I realise now that I previously posted most of this info several pages ago. Apologies._


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