# Sailing around and rules



## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

I was sailing for 3 days 2 nights about a month ago and noticed that a lot of people do not follow the rules when boating when it comes to who has the right away etc. Is this a common occurrence all over the world?

:ship-captain:


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

Nope. Boaters in the Straight of Georgia all drive perfectly.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

We got cut off a few times by crab boats picking up traps and stuff they don't care.


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## Loki9 (Jun 15, 2011)

Working vessels, like crab boats, generally have the right of way when they are working


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

Loki9 said:


> Working vessels, like crab boats, generally have the right of way when they are working


Yea but it was not just that it was other sailors and people with power boats. Sometimes you just had to go on the wrong side or you would collide. I was just wondering because I took 4 ASA Classes and learned all these rules but in practice it seemed maybe 50 percent of people followed them. It has been my experience anyways.

:2 boat:


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## Loki9 (Jun 15, 2011)

What has been your experience on our nation's highways?


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

Same lol People are people I guess


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

A lot of people think they are always right in whatever they do......


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Actually, *NO* vessel on the water has the "_right of way"_. Not to be rude, but you really need to brush up on those rules before you take the helm of your new craft.


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## JoCoSailor (Dec 7, 2015)

Loki9 said:


> Working vessels, like crab boats, generally have the right of way when they are working


I hope to be sailing around crab and oyster boats a lot very soon. So to me, this is a good thing to understand. If they are picking up and checking pots are they "engaged in fishing"? or "restricted by nature of work"? (of course, I think I'd stay away if at all possible no matter what they doing)

Rule 3 - General Definitions 
d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.

(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

sailforlife said:


> ...it seemed maybe 50 percent of people followed them.


50 percent!?! That's pretty good!

Around Tampa Bay I would say it is a lot less than that!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Wait, there are rules?

And given the problems with literacy and language in Floridia, how would you inform people of those rules? With no written tradition, is there a song cycle to teach them?

Rules? Really? (sigh)


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## Damon Gannon (Mar 3, 2017)

JoCoSailor said:


> I hope to be sailing around crab and oyster boats a lot very soon. So to me, this is a good thing to understand. If they are picking up and checking pots are they "engaged in fishing"? or "restricted by nature of work"? (of course, I think I'd stay away if at all possible no matter what they doing)
> 
> Rule 3 - General Definitions
> d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.
> ...


A boat that is in the act of hauling or setting fishing gear that restricts its maneuverability would be considered a vessel engaged in fishing. Regardless of whether it is considered a fishing vessel or a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver, you (as a sailing vessel) would have to keep clear.

If the vessel is transiting from one set of fishing gear to the next, then it is considered a motor vessel. Blue crab boats in the Mid-Atlantic and Southeast U.S. move pretty quickly from pot to pot so the transition between motor vessel and fishing happens quickly and frequently. So it is best to just stay clear. Often, the crab pots are set in shallow water so the fishing activity is geographically separated from sailboats. If you can't tell what the boat is doing or if it is maneuvering erratically, give it a wide berth.

There is plenty of room on the water. If we all just exercise some courtesy, then we can all get along.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Damon Gannon;2051365898
If the vessel is transiting from one set of fishing gear to the next said:


> I disagree with your assessment of when a fishing vessel is fishing and when it is a motor vessel. As I understand the rules, if a vessel is carrying the day share of a fishing vessel and the proper lighting at night, then it is a vessel engaged in fishing, no matter what it may appear to be doing. Granted, many fishing vessels do not take down their fishing identification when steaming, but that same vessel could be streaming a longline or setting a net or pots, and it could appear to another vessel that the boat was steaming.
> So, don't try to figure whether a properly indicated fishing vessel is actively engaged in fishing, just give them all a wide berth. The last thing a sailor wants is a longline, pot line or net wrapped around his keel, prop or rudder.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

One doesn't "fish" for seafood, seafood isn't fish. And the crab and lobstermen aren't necessarily impaired by equipment that they have deployed in the water, as fishermen with trawls are.

But. There usually is a powered pulley, and the trap lines are engaged in it, so the boat is still very much unable to maneuver because, by the nature of their work, they are literally moored in place. They'd have to disengage the lines, which doesn't always go smoothly and can make for some delays trying to re-acquire them.

I wouldn't want to try explaining to a magistrate or a court of inquiry that I had a SAILBOAT and that meant I was less maneuverable than some commercial vessel hooked into lines that ran to the bottom. We know how that movie ends.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I practice defensive sailing. Not worth pushing things just because I have the right of way. Most power boaters around here seem to avoid sailboats. And most sailboats seem to understand the port/stbd rule. But the windward/leeward rule is another matter.


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## Damon Gannon (Mar 3, 2017)

hellosailor said:


> One doesn't "fish" for seafood, seafood isn't fish. And the crab and lobstermen aren't necessarily impaired by equipment that they have deployed in the water, as fishermen with trawls are.
> 
> But. There usually is a powered pulley, and the trap lines are engaged in it, so the boat is still very much unable to maneuver because, by the nature of their work, they are literally moored in place. They'd have to disengage the lines, which doesn't always go smoothly and can make for some delays trying to re-acquire them.
> 
> I wouldn't want to try explaining to a magistrate or a court of inquiry that I had a SAILBOAT and that meant I was less maneuverable than some commercial vessel hooked into lines that ran to the bottom. We know how that movie ends.


True, lobsters and crabs aren't fish. But the COLREGS classifies vessels that harvest crabs and lobsters as "fishing vessels" as long as they are engaged in fishing activities that hinder maneuverability (The COLREGS distinguishes trawlers from other forms of fishing vessels by requiring different lights...but they are given the same privileges under the rules.)


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## Damon Gannon (Mar 3, 2017)

capta said:


> I disagree with your assessment of when a fishing vessel is fishing and when it is a motor vessel. As I understand the rules, if a vessel is carrying the day share of a fishing vessel and the proper lighting at night, then it is a vessel engaged in fishing, no matter what it may appear to be doing. Granted, many fishing vessels do not take down their fishing identification when steaming, but that same vessel could be streaming a longline or setting a net or pots, and it could appear to another vessel that the boat was steaming.
> So, don't try to figure whether a properly indicated fishing vessel is actively engaged in fishing, just give them all a wide berth. The last thing a sailor wants is a longline, pot line or net wrapped around his keel, prop or rudder.


You are correct that trawlers and other fishing vessels are supposed to display the proper dayshapes and lights, but only when they are actually engaged in fishing activity. It is true that trawlers tend to leave their dayshapes up all the time, regardless of whether they are steaming or fishing. If they do so when they are steaming, then they are violating the rules. It's the equivalent of a sailboat not showing a steaming light at night and asserting the privileges of a sailing vessel, even when it was under power. But you are correct, if they are showing the dayshapes (two cones point-to-point or an inverted bushel basket for vessels <20m) or lights (green-over-white for trawlers and red-over-white for other fishing vessels) of a fishing vessel, it may be difficult to tell if they are steaming or actually fishing, so it is best to simply give-way.

Regarding the specific case of blue crab vessels in the inshore waters of the Mid-Atlantic and Southeast U.S. (which is the type of crab vessel to which I believe the previous poster was referring since he also mentioned oyster boats)...these are very small boats that typically fish during daylight hours. I have never seen one of these boats, which are usually open center-console-type boats, display a dayshape while fishing. By not displaying a dayshape, they are not properly identifying themselves as fishing vessels and would be found at fault (at least partly) if they got into a collision because they tried to assert the privileges of a fishing vessel. But in collisions at sea, it is rare for just one vessel to be found totally at fault by accident investigators or the courts. I suspect that a sailing vessel (or motor vessel) that collides with a fishing vessel that is actually engaged in fishing will be found at least partially responsible for the accident, even if the fishing vessel isn't displaying its proper dayshape. In any case, a crab boat is usually turning in tight circles as it retrieves its gear, extracts the crabs, rebaits the pot, and sets it back. During this procedure, the captain (who is often working alone) is usually not paying attention to the other boats in the area. So, again, it's prudent just to avoid them.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

*We Don't Need No Stinking Rules*


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

capta said:


> As I understand the rules, if a vessel is carrying the day share of a fishing vessel and the proper lighting at night, then it is a vessel engaged in fishing, no matter what...


Just showing the proper lighting doesn't automatically make your vessel into something that it is not.



capta said:


> So, don't try to figure whether a properly indicated fishing vessel is actively engaged in fishing, just give them all a wide berth.


This, of course, is absolutely true.

My point being that if a vessel is showing lighting that indicates they are a fishing vessel, and you get into a collision with it, the court is not going to automatically give them fishing status just because they had the right lights. If they were not actually fishing at the time, then the court is going to apply the rules to them according to the lighting that they SHOULD have been displaying. Not the lighting that they WERE displaying. And the court would probably give them a little extra slap for displaying improper lighting.

That's all in court, though. Out there on the water, the first and foremost rule -- and the bottom line in every situation -- is to AVOID A COLLISION! So if they are showing fishing lights you should treat them like a fishing vessel.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Choosing to give a fishing vessel a wide berth is a good idea. Polite too, as they are working and we are playing. I try to do so, long before collision avoidance rules should come into play. 

That said, there are circumstances where that is just not possible, due to other traffic, depths, whatever. In those cases, the ColRegs are important so we all properly coordinate our next move. I do not believe a fishing vessel that is not presently engaged in fishing, as specifically defined in the ColReg, has the "fishing" priority. They are not restricted by their work, they are as maneuverable as ever. Most certainly do all act like they have a priority. 

Most boater, perhaps including fisherman, don't actually know the rules to follow them in the first place. That's the real problem.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

sailforlife said:


> I was sailing for 3 days 2 nights about a month ago and noticed that a lot of people do not follow the rules when boating when it comes to who has the right away etc. Is this a common occurrence all over the world?
> 
> :ship-captain:


The short answer is-

Recreational boaters often do not know, or simply do not follow the COLREGs. Get used to it.
Commercial vessels, depending on the situation, are somewhat better, but far from infallible.
Recreational fishermen are the worst, because they read the part of the rule about a "vessel engaged in fishing" and totally disregard the rest of the rule. There is no arguing with them or educating them. I simply avoid them at all costs.

There's a saying- _"Hell is other people."_
When I sail, I typically head in a direction that takes me farthest away from other recreational boaters and I try to stay out of the path of commercial vessels.

Also, notice that I use the term "boaters" not "sailors" or "power boaters." That's because power boaters do not have a monopoly on ignorance and rudeness and sailors are not the paragons of virtue that we wish we were. I have been treated rudely and seen poor seamanship by both parties.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

Here they are...


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

it just makes me all angry inside :hothead:gunner


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Somebody mentioned defensive boating that is the key. Crack off a few degrees (towards their stern) long before the Colregs ever come into play and you will almost never have an issue. This is a practical solution at cruising speeds. Far too many boaters push the envelope in the belief that they are in the right when often they are not. Most recreational boating courses just don't go into enough detail to cover all situations, especially with regards to various commercial and government operations.

By far the worst I encounter are racing sailboats, so many seem to believe somebody other then them cares about their game. They can be like kids running through a shopping mall or down a sidewalk, entirely unaware their are other pedestrians trying to use the public space.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

capta said:


> Actually, *NO* vessel on the water has the "_right of way"_. Not to be rude, but you really need to brush up on those rules before you take the helm of your new craft.


I believe the OP is in Florida and therefore operates under USCG Inland Rules For Navigation which do use the term "Right of Way". Code of Federal Regulations Title 33 89.25


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Ajax_MD said:


> Recreational fishermen are the worst, because they read the part of the rule about a "vessel engaged in fishing" and totally disregard the rest of the rule.


Not to mention the fact that, just because you are fishing, that does not automatically mean you are a "vessel engaged in fishing" according to the COLREGS. More importantly, if you are not displaying the proper lights and/or day-shapes (and I have NEVER seen recreational fishermen display the proper lights or shapes!) then the COLREGS would say you are NOT entitled to be treated as a "vessel engaged in fishing."

Of course, as mentioned already, half the recreational boaters out there don't know the rules anyway, and wouldn't care if they did know the rules!


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

It's "stand-on" and "give-way" now, see the titles for Rules 16 and 17. But we who grew up with the old terminology still forget. Makes no practical difference anyway, if you are familiar with the rules in the first place.

"Red over white, fishing at night. White over red, Pilot ahead. Red over green, sailing machine. Red over red, captain is dead" ;-)

I don't know if I don't hang out in the "right" places, but it's been my general experience that (jetskis and some go-fasts aside), most boats I see do actually maneuver in accordance with the rules. 

But that said, I do try to be practical. If that powerboat is half-up on plane continuously, facing the sun (while I'm looking downsun at them, and it's late in the afternoon--cocktail hour!), I will assume they don't see me, or aren't in a position to see me even if they cared to look.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Is it a geographic issue? Maybe.

In Narragansett Bay, I find most seem to follow the rules. There are always exceptions. 

I've spent my sailing life, moving further and further out LIS, through Block Island Sound, from NYC to RI. In my experience, the waters get less civil and the rules are less discernible, the closer you get to NYC.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

boatpoker said:


> I believe the OP is in Florida and therefore operates under USCG Inland Rules For Navigation which do use the term "Right of Way". Code of Federal Regulations Title 33 89.25


My bad. Sorry, I just don't think in terms of "inland" rules out here.
However, I doubt that the shared responsibility for any incident is waived because one vessel had the "right of way" under the rules. It is not a good practice to think in those terms.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

capta said:


> My bad. Sorry, I just don't think in terms of "inland" rules out here.
> However, I doubt that the shared responsibility for any incident is waived because one vessel had the "right of way" under the rules. It is not a good practice to think in those terms.


I completely agree. I practice the rule of tonnage.


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## Damon Gannon (Mar 3, 2017)

boatpoker said:


> I believe the OP is in Florida and therefore operates under USCG Inland Rules For Navigation which do use the term "Right of Way". Code of Federal Regulations Title 33 89.25


Gotta call BS on two counts here:

1. Florida is no different than any other coastal state. If you go outside of the Line of Demarcation, you are subject to the International Rules (COLREGS). In Florida, the Demarcation Line generally runs across the mouth of inlets and passes. Essentially, as soon as you are in the Ocean or Gulf, you are subject to International Rules. This is the same as in any other coastal state.

2. "Right-of-way" only applies in the inland rules for "power-driven vessels operating in narrow channels or fairways on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound with a following current shall have the right-of-way over an upbound vessel." Florida has no special designation under the Inland Rules (neither does any other coastal state), and "Right-of-way" does not apply.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Damon Gannon said:


> Gotta call BS on two counts here:
> 
> 1. Florida is no different than any other coastal state. If you go outside of the Line of Demarcation, you are subject to the International Rules (COLREGS). In Florida, the Demarcation Line generally runs across the mouth of inlets and passes. Essentially, as soon as you are in the Ocean or Gulf, you are subject to International Rules. This is the same as in any other coastal state.
> 
> 2. "Right-of-way" only applies in the inland rules for "power-driven vessels operating in narrow channels or fairways on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound with a following current shall have the right-of-way over an upbound vessel." Florida has no special designation under the Inland Rules (neither does any other coastal state), and "Right-of-way" does not apply.


All I said was that ....
a. The term is used in Inland Rules. 
b. The OP was in Florida therefore under those rules.

Which of these statements is incorrect ?


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

sailforlife said:


> We got cut off a few times by crab boats picking up traps and stuff they don't care.


FWIW a crab boat working pots falls under the COLREGS definition of fishing vessel and as such has priority over both powered and sailing vessels.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

I respectfully suggest that everyone reading this thread please CAREFULLY read COLREGS Rule 3, both Inland (page 6) and International (Page 7). You can find a current copy of COLREGS here: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf

PM me if you want to bring me back into this as I am unsubscribing.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

sailingfool said:


> FWIW a crab boat working pots falls under the COLREGS definition of fishing vessel and as such has priority over both powered and sailing vessels.


I agree, while working the pots. However, what about when transiting between pots.

I try to maneuver around them, so this isn't an issue. However, it's not always possible or clear where they're going next. Around here, the lobster boats clearly don't care where anyone else is, even when fully maneuverable between pots. I'm just not sure the "engaged in fishing" counts when in transit and not actually engaged.


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## Damon Gannon (Mar 3, 2017)

boatpoker said:


> All I said was that ....
> a. The term is used in Inland Rules.
> b. The OP was in Florida therefore under those rules.
> 
> Which of these statements is incorrect ?


"Right of way" is indeed used in the Inland Rules but only in reference to vessels heading down-current on the Great Lakes and Western Rivers. Right of Way does not apply to the inland waters of Florida.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Damon Gannon said:


> "Right of way" is indeed used in the Inland Rules but only in reference to vessels heading down-current on the Great Lakes and Western Rivers. Right of Way does not apply to the inland waters of Florida.


I suggest you re-read, especially the part that says "all inland waters". Florida does have inland waters does it not ?


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## Damon Gannon (Mar 3, 2017)

boatpoker said:


> I suggest you re-read, especially the part that says "all inland waters". Florida does have inland waters does it not ?


Here are the rules. Do a word search on "Right" and tell me how many times the phrase "Right of way" is used in reference to any body of water outside of the Western Rivers and Great Lakes.

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf


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## Damon Gannon (Mar 3, 2017)

Damon Gannon said:


> Here are the rules. Do a word search on "Right" and tell me how many times the phrase "Right of way" is used in reference to any body of water outside of the Western Rivers and Great Lakes.
> 
> https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf


The Inland Rules do indeed apply to all inland waters of the U.S., including those of Florida. But the concept of "Right of way" only appears in the rules in reference to vessels heading down-current in the Western Rivers and Great Lakes.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Damon Gannon said:


> The Inland Rules do indeed apply to all inland waters of the U.S., including those of Florida. But the concept of "Right of way" only appears in the rules in reference to vessels heading down-current in the Western Rivers and Great Lakes.


Once again, please re-read. Rule 9 (a) does not preclude any inland waterway from that rule. Nor does it say that it only applies to the Great Lakes.


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## Damon Gannon (Mar 3, 2017)

To put a finer point on it...the quotation below is from the USCG's "Frequently Asked Questions" page on the navigation rules (https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesFAQ#0.3_5):

"5. Who has the "right of way" on the water? The Navigation Rules convey a right-of-way only in one particular circumstance: to power-driven vessels proceeding downbound with a following current in narrow channels or fairways of the Great Lakes , Western Rivers, or other waters specified by regulation (Inland Rule 9(a)(ii)). Otherwise, power-driven vessels are to keep out of the way (Rule 18) and either give-way (Rule 16) or stand-on (Rule 17) to vessels not under command or restricted in their ability to maneuver, sailing vessels or vessels engaged in fishing, and, similarly vessels should avoid impeding the safe passage of a vessel constrained by her draft (Rule 18), navigating a narrow channel (Rule 9) or traffic separation scheme (Rule 10). The Rules do not grant privileges they impose responsibilities and require precaution under all conditions and circumstances; no Rule exonerates any vessel from the consequences of neglect (Rule 2). Neglect, among other things, could be not maintaining a proper look-out (Rule 5), use of improper speed (Rule 6), not taking the appropriate actions to determine and avoid collision (Rule 7 & 8) or completely ignoring your responsibilities under the Rules.

Note, a power driven vessel means any vessel propelled by machinery; regardless of the machinery being used or not."


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Damon Gannon said:


> To put a finer point on it...the quotation below is from the USCG's "Frequently Asked Questions" page on the navigation rules (https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesFAQ#0.3_5):
> 
> "5. Who has the "right of way" on the water? The Navigation Rules convey a right-of-way only in one particular circumstance: to power-driven vessels proceeding downbound with a following current in narrow channels or fairways of the Great Lakes , Western Rivers, or other waters specified by regulation (Inland Rule 9(a)(ii)). Otherwise, power-driven vessels are to keep out of the way (Rule 18) and either give-way (Rule 16) or stand-on (Rule 17) to vessels not under command or restricted in their ability to maneuver, sailing vessels or vessels engaged in fishing, and, similarly vessels should avoid impeding the safe passage of a vessel constrained by her draft (Rule 18), navigating a narrow channel (Rule 9) or traffic separation scheme (Rule 10). The Rules do not grant privileges they impose responsibilities and require precaution under all conditions and circumstances; no Rule exonerates any vessel from the consequences of neglect (Rule 2). Neglect, among other things, could be not maintaining a proper look-out (Rule 5), use of improper speed (Rule 6), not taking the appropriate actions to determine and avoid collision (Rule 7 & 8) or completely ignoring your responsibilities under the Rules.
> 
> Note, a power driven vessel means any vessel propelled by machinery; regardless of the machinery being used or not."


Show me the quote that says "right of way" applies only in the Great Lakes or show me where it excludes any inland water.

or show me where the Commandant is wrong when he says "all inland waters" as shown in the first photo I posted.

From your own post, I think you missed the part that says "or other waters specified by regulation (Inland Rule 9(a)". As we already know 9(a) makes no exclusions of any Inland Waters.


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## Damon Gannon (Mar 3, 2017)

boatpoker said:


> Once again, please re-read. Rule 9 (a) does not preclude any inland waterway from that rule. Nor does it say that it only applies to the Great Lakes.


9 (a) (ii) does indeed only apply to the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, and other bodies of water specifically designated by regulation. It says it right there and the USCG confirms it in their FAQs. In all other inland waters, the stand-on and give-way concepts apply.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

- Commandant says all inland waters.
- 9(a)(i) makes no exclusions
- 9(a)(ii) says "notwithstanding paragraph (a) (i)
- 9(a) (ii)or other waters specified by regulation ... (refer to all inland waters.

You have still failed to show where it says it applies only to Great Lakes

I guess my experience and four masters tickets and more importantly the memo from the USCG Commandant are just not up to convincing you of your error. I retire from this discussion.

You also seem to forget that the Great Lakes references were simply an addition to the already existing Inland Rules


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

denverd0n said:


> Not to mention the fact that, just because you are fishing, that does not automatically mean you are a "vessel engaged in fishing" according to the COLREGS.


I agree that a boat with people fishing doesn't make them a "fishing boat". But normally when I come across them they aren't underway and are basically drifting and I feel that means they fall under other rules and need to sail around them. At the same time they better reel their lines in before I get there as sometimes it's going to be close :eek


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## Damon Gannon (Mar 3, 2017)

boatpoker said:


> - Commandant says all inland waters.
> - 9(a)(i) makes no exclusions
> - 9(a)(ii) says "notwithstanding paragraph (a) (i)
> - 9(a) (ii)or other waters specified by regulation ... (refer to all inland waters.
> ...


Last post beating this dead horse...

Given your interpretation of Rule 9 (a) (ii), how do you explain Rules 2, 16, and 17? And do you really think that there have been situations (outside of the Western Rivers and Great Lakes) where you had absolute right-of-way?


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## Damon Gannon (Mar 3, 2017)

OK, I know I said my previous post would be my last, but just to make my position crystal clear...

I think boatpoker and I just misunderstand what each other is saying. I never meant to imply that there are inland waters of the U.S. where the Inland Rules don't apply. The Inland Rules apply everywhere. And I did not mean to imply that Rule 9 (a) only applies to the Western Rivers and Great Lakes. It, too, applies to all inland waters. 

What I am saying is that there is a difference between the concepts of "right-of-way" and "stand-on-vessel." The only place in either the International or Inland Rules where the term "Right-of-way" is used is in Rule 9 (a) (ii) of the Inland Rules, and it is very clear that this applies narrowly to motor vessels heading down-current in the Western Rivers, Great Lakes, and other bodies of water specifically designated by regulation (this last part does not include all inland waters). In all other situations, the concepts of "stand-on" and "give-way" apply. If right-of-way was applied more broadly in the Inland Rules, then Rules 2, 16, and 17 would not exist (and Rule 9 (a) (ii) would not need to identify specific bodies of water if it applied to all inland waters). 

Just remember this: unless you are heading down-current on the Western Rivers (Mississippi River drainage) or in Great Lakes watershed (and a few other very specific locations designated by regulation), you do not ever have absolute right-of-way. Instead, you are either the stand-on or give-way vessel.

I think we've found the bottom of this rabbit hole...


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Damon Gannon said:


> Last post beating this dead horse...
> 
> Given your interpretation of Rule 9 (a) (ii), how do you explain Rules 2, 16, and 17? And do you really think that there have been situations (outside of the Western Rivers and Great Lakes) where you had absolute right-of-way?


Ok ... I can't let this one pass it is just so stupid.
.
Nowhere did I make any interpretation of any rules. I simply stated what those rules are. You are the one making wild interpretations contrary to what the Commandant of the USCG has said. Ok. Have at it with your silliness. I admit I've been sucked in by another armchair sailor. I've learned my lesson. I should not respond to people who call BS on clearly stated and proven facts.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I see what DG is saying, the inland 9a(ii) does state specifically where it is applied

_ii) Notwithstanding paragraph (a)(i) of this Rule and Rule 14(a) (§ 83.14(a)), a power-driven vessel operating in narrow channels or fairways on the *Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary*, and proceeding downbound with a following current *shall have the right-of-way over an upbound vessel*, shall propose the manner and place of passage, and shall initiate the maneuvering signals prescribed by Rule 34(a)(i) (§ 83.34(a)(i)), as appropriate. The vessel proceeding upbound against the current shall hold as necessary to permit safe passing._


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> .....they aren't underway and are basically drifting and I feel that means they fall under other rules and need to sail around them.......


What other rule do you think a drifting, but not incapacitated vessel, falls under?

If it's propelled solely by machinery, I don't think shifting to neutral changes the pecking order.

Nevertheless, I agree, if you see a vessel working, it's nice to avoid before the ColReg pecking order is even an issue.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Not interested in joining rules cut and pasterer group


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> Not interested in joining rules cut and pasterer group


Particularly difficult, if the rule doesn't exist.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

If you say so it must be true


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Don0190 said:


> But normally when I come across them they aren't underway and are basically drifting...


I agree completely that the reasonable and polite thing to do is to avoid them. That's what I do.

On the other hand, if they are "drifting" then, according to the rules, they ARE "underway."


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