# can I afford to continue sailing



## ABH3 Boyer (Sep 27, 2012)

So at the end of this season my wife tells me she cant justify the dock fees associated with me having a sailboat and she dosn't think we can afford it next season. I didnt keep track but I'm sure i went out 25 or more times and my dock costs about $1300 for the season. That breaks down to about $50 per outing worth of dock fees. I have to admit when she puts it that way it sounds like a lot of money. I'm your typical middle class 30 something sailor with a wife and 2 young children. I dont make a lot of money but we arent poor either. Now I have about 5 months to get her to change her mind on this or were going to have a seroius disagreement. I'm not willing to give up sailing. After my father passed 4 years ago at 61 I decided that if i keep waiting for the right time to own a boat, I might wait forever. He died never setting foot on a sailboat and always dreaming of doing so. I also want my children to know the freedom of sailing. When they become adults they can make their own informed decision on weather they want to partake in my love affair with the water. Its not a money thing. Its a priority thing. I'm looking for some advise on changing her mind. I'm also willing to make consessions like go to a Mooring rather than a dock to roughly cut my costs in half if I can find one here in Buffalo N.Y. Anyone in the area that has any suggestions on where to go that would be helpful too.


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## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

ABH3 Boyer said:


> So at the end of this season my wife tells me she cant justify the dock fees associated with me having a sailboat and she dosn't think we can afford it next season. I didnt keep track but I'm sure i went out 25 or more times and my dock costs about $1300 for the season. That breaks down to about $50 per outing worth of dock fees. I have to admit when she puts it that way it sounds like a lot of money. I'm your typical middle class 30 something sailor with a wife and 2 young children. I dont make a lot of money but we arent poor either. Now I have about 5 months to get her to change her mind on this or were going to have a seroius disagreement. I'm not willing to give up sailing. After my father passed 4 years ago at 61 I decided that if i keep waiting for the right time to own a boat, I might wait forever. He died never setting foot on a sailboat and always dreaming of doing so. I also want my children to know the freedom of sailing. When they become adults they can make their own informed decision on weather they want to partake in my love affair with the water. Its not a money thing. Its a priority thing. I'm looking for some advise on changing her mind. I'm also willing to make consessions like go to a Mooring rather than a dock to roughly cut my costs in half if I can find one here in Buffalo N.Y. Anyone in the area that has any suggestions on where to go that would be helpful too.


terrible story

we obnly go once around this hampster wheel so you have to grab everything while you can

you wife first: remind her that you ge tendless pleasure from the boat even when you are not on it. Just as thinking about her makes you happy so thinking about the boat makes you happy as well. Value cannot be measured in days or hours

the boat: a smaller boat - a trailer sailer can be great value and you can sail in different places. the tow vehicle thing can be problem but over here you can rent a van for £40 a day to tow the boat. Or get a mooring and tow a decent sized dinghy -

above all... don't give up on the sailing - it is the fourth most important thing in the world to you after her and the two kids


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## luck66 (Jul 4, 2011)

We always find way to enjoy the things we love. Wife, kids, job, SAILING. I am over 60, and my wife does not go sailing, but we make it work. I've gone on some good sailing trips whine she remained at home. We worked it out. My first wife and I could not work things out (nothing to do with sailing) so after about 4 years of disagreements we parted ways. We all nee to sail our own boat.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

How about a trade?

You offer to clean the bathrooms forever and she lets you keep the boat...


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

$100 a month to enable you to show your kids an alternative to living in front of a computer screeen,
Sounds reasonable. Sounds like you are married to a control freak of the consumer religion type. (Conformity Taliban)
Stand your ground, and maintain some control over what is your own life. If you dont , it will eventually disolve anyway with even greater anger and resentment.


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## bristol299bob (Apr 13, 2011)

When i first started sailing I had a trailer-able boat. I was astonished at how inexpensive it was to keep and maintain. I learned a ton on that boat, and the whole family had fun on it.

I love the boat I have now, but it an order of magnitude more expensive to keep and maintain it. 

I'd consider finding a trailer sailer on the upper end, and find a marina that lets you keep the boat rigged, on the trailer, in a storage area. a little less convenient, a lot less expensive. 

And get that larger boat (and slip fee) when the kids are older.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm in a similar situation (30s, married, young kid, not rich), but my wife so far has been supportive of the boat. 

We justify the cost of owning the boat in a few ways. For one, spending the weekend on the boat is pretty cheap entertainment. We pack our food and spend zero money once we leave the mooring. Next summer we plan to take about 10 days and cruise our local waters, whereas before the boat we'd spend a few thousand on a summer vacation somewhere.

Perhaps even more important, it's a way to do something fun together as a family. Wife is not crazy about sailing itself, but she does love spending a weekend as a family on the boat. Consequently, a day on the boat with the family might only entail a few hours of sailing, and many more hours at anchor swimming, reading, relaxing, etc.

Maybe that will give you some ideas to work with.... Good luck!


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## GMC (Sep 14, 2009)

My wife enjoys it sometimes and tolerates it all the time because members of her family and our kids enjoy trips on the boat. As long as that is the case and the boat attracts others to come back and spend time with us, she consents. If you haven't had her family or friends aboard on a nice day, you should (and then, they need to express a desire to go again next season). If the kids aren't hooked, work on that. Good luck.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

$1,300 for a slip is short money, we pay close to that for a mooring.

Be carefull, this is how it starts, next thing you know you've got no boat, no house... 

Like Brent said:
"Stand your ground, and maintain some control over what is your own life. If you dont , it will eventually disolve anyway with even greater anger and resentment.


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

"Stand your ground" is not the approach I'd take. I wouldn't give in, either, but don't approach this as a confrontation- a good wife is hard to find and divorces are more expensive than dock fees. Discuss it.
You are both right. It's impossible to justify sailing from an economic standpoint. It's an expensive thing to do. However, if you spend your life worrying only about money and not enjoying what you're doing, it's wasted.
Convince her that you are mindful of what it costs and you try to economize as much as you can, but sailing is too important to you to give up and the two of you need to find a way to make it happen.
Maybe if she gives up new clothes for 6 months?


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## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

here is a plan

first: at quiet moments sit wistfully staring into space.... make sure she spots you and asks you waht you were doing.... thinking about sailing is the answer

second: buy sailing books from amazon for $1 each. Leave them around the house. read passages out. buy some childrens sailing books,read them to the children

third: watch sailing films on you tube with the volume turned up

some of mine have just music with them - this a good one

if she hears it a couple of times she is bound to ask what it is


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

well this is not about sailing but about marriage. I married two times and the last one is going on for more than 25 years so I guess I know one or two things about that and one of the more important is that you cannot let go what is really important for you and the same applies to your wife.

If someone let go something that is really important that regret is going to bit hard on your life and it will be the sub-conscious motive for a lot of bitterness that will poison your relationship and can even end with your marriage.

So, think well if sailing is that important to you and if it is, you cannot put a price tag on it (providing you can afford it as a life choice) and should tell that to your wife. Of course, as someone as said, be prepared to compromise on other things

Best regards

Paulo


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## CalypsoP35 (Jul 24, 2006)

You have to get the cost per trip down. I recomend you go sailing more often. If you go sailing 50 times instead of 25 times per season you cut your costs per trip in half. 

We don't know enough about your finances, and your family to be able to offer concrete advice. It sounds like you're already considering cutting costs. That is where I would start. 

I will however offer an anecdote. Buying my sailboat is the one and only significant financial decision that my wife and I have disagreed on during our 23 years together. I went ahead and bought the boat and am glad I did. We've had the boat for 11 years now and while she is not an avid sailor will join me on occaision. I keep telling her it's the only thing that keeps me sane, especially after I've had a particularly stressful stretch at work. She now appreciates how much enjoyment I've gotten out of the boat. We've had great family sailing weekends, that the kids who are now in college will always remember. For me, it was the right decision, only you can answer the question on how much you should spend on your sailiing habit.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

msmith10 said:


> "Stand your ground" is not the approach I'd take. I wouldn't give in, either, but don't approach this as a confrontation- a good wife is hard to find and divorces are more expensive than dock fees. Discuss it.
> You are both right. It's impossible to justify sailing from an economic standpoint. It's an expensive thing to do. However, if you spend your life worrying only about money and not enjoying what you're doing, it's wasted.
> Convince her that you are mindful of what it costs and you try to economize as much as you can, but sailing is too important to you to give up and the two of you need to find a way to make it happen.
> Maybe if she gives up new clothes for 6 months?


I dont think I would define "A good wife" as someone who considers your ambitions and dreams, irrellevant ,and considers you just a stepping stone to her ambitions.


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## Sublime (Sep 11, 2010)

Hmmm...look at this as a chance to come together to work something out. Do not be confrontational. Ask her questions.

You'll never justify keeping the boat if you look at it from a financial standpoint. The only people who can do that are commercial fishermen and captains for hire.

Think about how to justify it emotionally, mentally, physically. Sailing keeps you active. It keeps you from the bars. It gives you a chance to appreciate what you have. It gives you a chance to appreciate things she goes without so you can do something you enjoy so much. It's your "alone time".Compare it to a hobby of hers that she really enjoys. "Sailing lets my mind relax just like how you need to be able to _____."

Things to think about:
Do you have a bunch of hobbies and she only has one or two? 
Is there something else you can give up that you don't like as much to help meet a financial obligation? 
Assuming she's the one balancing the budget, is it so close that it's stressful for her and she'd like breathing room?
What does she want to do with the extra money?
How much attention have you been giving her? 
Is she feeling neglected?

Many women will bend over backwards for their loved ones if they feel cherished and appreciated. That's your first order of business if you've been slacking in that department. 

And don't get dramatic.


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## sailor1950 (Dec 8, 2009)

Have her take a weeks vacation in annapolis md where you enroll her in a womens sailing coarse taught by women for women. If you can get her hooked life will be great


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

sailor1950 said:


> Have her take a weeks vacation in annapolis md where you enroll her in a womens sailing coarse taught by women for women. If you can get her hooked life will be great


Great idea!
I am neihter Commercial fisherman nor captain for hire, but without my boat, my cost of living would go up exponentially. She pays for herself every 6 months, for what she cost me. That is the case with many liveaboards.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> $1,300 for a slip is short money, we pay close to that for a mooring.
> Be carefull, this is how it starts, next thing you know you've got no boat, no house...
> Like Brent said:
> "Stand your ground, and maintain some control over what is your own life. If you dont , it will eventually disolve anyway with even greater anger and resentment.-misfits


 I am afraid this is shortsighted. Relationships are not about drawung lines. Every action has and equal and opposite reaction. Try and win her over.[/



> Stand your ground" is not the approach I'd take. I wouldn't give in, either, but don't approach this as a confrontation- a good wife is hard to find and divorces are more expensive than dock fees. Discuss it.
> You are both right. It's impossible to justify sailing from an economic standpoint. It's an expensive thing to do. However, if you spend your life worrying only about money and not enjoying what you're doing, it's wasted.
> Convince her that you are mindful of what it costs and you try to economize as much as you can, but sailing is too important to you to give up and the two of you need to find a way to make it happen-mssmith10


Agree 100% Find the positives and explain they are not measurable by price. The large amount this costs in percentage to your income now, will not be the same percentage when you make more in 10 yeras, but the time and experiences you get as a FAMILY on the boat wont be able to be measured by the expense.

sailing teaches kids confidence, nature and the outside, famuily time together in simple settings as well as the actual sailing. It also helps bond you, and your wife and family together in a family activity for all ages.

Dave


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## groggy (Aug 18, 2011)

I'm about a decade or so older than you and I also have a young child, but no boat. The finances of getting a boat are a hot topic in my little family as well. I am in a boat club, and the monthly dues and boat rental fees are not insignificant there either.

Honestly, the price you are paying for a seasonal slip should be doable. Negociate with your wife some other expense-cutting for the boat cost, it shouldn't even have to total the exact amount unless you are having a serious financial crisis. 

We could all have more money if we never went anywhere or did anything other than work and chores while wearing clothes from yard sales, but I don't think anyone lives like that if they can help it. Some money is going to get spent for fun - if the boat is important, then try to make it work. At least you have a working boat, presumably paid for and in serviceable condition, which is a pretty good chunk of the puzzle solved. 

In my case I have to figure the math on paying for a nice used boat, then getting it up to standard, as any used boat will likely have deferred maintenance issues, and then figure the annual expenses both quantifiable and estimated. You are well ahead of me on this issue, which is not something to walk away from lightly. 

As others have written, try to keep the confrontation to a minimum, respect the budgetary concernes of you spouse but dont throw away a good thing for the sake of saving little. After all, what will replace the boat on summer weekends - car trips? restaurant outings? Nothing is free, and you will want to do something with your family, which may make keeping the boat not much more expensive than doing something else.

Forgive my rambling, but I have been thinking about this too much myself...


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

I used to build racecars so I've seen it all when it comes to the "wife says".
I say stand your ground.
I saw a friend lose his dream car. His wife wanted a new Prius and she made him sell his '64 1/2 Mustang and he got stuck with a 15 year old Honda and she got the new Prius. Next to go was his wood working tools so she could have more room in the garage to store useless ****. Then he had to give up softball to spend more time with the kids when she went back to school. Now he's a miserable housewife and she's gone all the time chasing HER dreams.
It's a 2 way street. You need something too.


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

I had another friend sell a real 1973 RS Porsche about 10 years ago for $45,000.00 so she could get a new kitchen. The car's worth over $300,000 now and she needs a new kitchen again.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Thank god ,even in my youth, with my brain awash in mentally disabling hormones , I could still see such parasitic users coming a mile away, despite the wishful thinking , hormonally driven temptation to live in a romantic fantasy world.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I'd find out what the real issue is? You are only getting.. half the information. 

Remember that men are from mars, women are from venus. So, my translation is that she has another, in her mind, better use for that $1300. I'd find out what she has in mind for the $1300. Once you have all the information, then you can see if you can work out a solution that's mutually beneficial. Do you have a way to earn the additional $1300. ? 
Or cut some personal expense to make it up? 

I'm also hearing that it's YOUR boat, I didn't get the impression that she goes sailing with you. Why is that? I hear you talking about taking the kids sailing....is this a fear thing? or a financial thing? Have you had the kids on the boat? How does that go? 

Like I said.... not enough information... I wouldn't do anything until I had all the facts.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

$1300 is obviously NOT your total boating cost 

A wife that hates boats is gonna hate boats 

My wife pretty much came to HATE sailing on are J24 and i can not say i blame her as it became a PITA boat as we aged from a comfort standpoint 

On the other hand she LOVES the Cal 29 and so does everybody else that you could NOT PAY to go out on the J24 

We are both much more happy and spend far more time together sailing than we ever have as the Cal performs well enough for me and its stable manners just make it FUN and SHE actuality plans overnight trips now as she enjoys getting away in a boat that has reasonable comforts


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

dylanwinter1 said:


> here is a plan
> 
> first: at quiet moments sit wistfully staring into space.... make sure she spots you and asks you waht you were doing.... thinking about sailing is the answer
> 
> ...


ive never seen blocks on the tack of the jib what do they help with?


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

and to the op you really don't need a lot of money to boat. if your alright with the boat looking a little ugly you can get away with out paying a lot. i got the free boat this year. and only paid for some gas and some new lines. im about $200 into the boat for the whole season so far.


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## neverknow (Feb 2, 2011)

Something you can try is finding out if your marina will do half seasons? You can launch her in July and might save close to half. I know some marinas on Lake Michigan will do month by month slip rentals too.

We had to take a break for 3 yrs from boating until the $$ was saved and it made since to do it again. So maybe think about taking a year off?

As some have mentioned already, take your family vacations on the boat. Instead of flying to Disney Land or spring break in FL. That alone will save you more than enough to keep the boat in the slip.

Anyone here giving advice on how to deal with your wife is just silly. You know her, they don't. Do what's best for your kids. I the end they are all that matters. Not you, not her and certainly not the "BOAT".


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## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

smallboatlover said:


> ive never seen blocks on the tack of the jib what do they help with?


no winches

two part purchase

works a treat

when the wind is light I go back to single sheets

very traditional on the broads and east coast fishing smacks

Dylan


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

Tell her you are going to take up golfing, then tell her what the green's fees are. Or skiing and tell her the price of a lift ticket. Hell,,,$50 is my usual bar tab...and don't even think of asking me to give that up.


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

Boats are a totally ridiculous expenditure that cannot be justified on the level of finances alone.

That said... I am very happy w/ the boat I bought last winter after looking and looking and looking and dreaming and thinking and...

While I had owned smaller trailer sailors and had crewed on larger boats and even was in a small private club of owners (we owned 3 30' boats) I wanted a boat that was MINE. Mine to rig, sail, care for the way I wanted to. I spend endless hours thinking about what I want to do, how I want to rig stuff and lots of time just puttering around on the boat.

Now granted my kids are 21 and 18 and also don't live we me any more. But I remarried last year and have been working 6 day weeks since...how long now?

The ADMIRAL loves sailing and even took a JWorld class this fall to get better.

The point of this rambling post is that from a dollars only approach the boat is not a good deal. It's the intangibles you get from owning the boat that make it worthwhile. As I've commented, most of the boat owners live a lifestyle in that sailing is just part of owning. Maintenance, comradery w/ your dock mates, IMPROVED attitude towards the responsibilities of life, work, family and home... 

As also noted, if wifey doesn't support you in your endeavors (within reason) maybe it's time to take a look at your relationship. And as also noted, what does she think you should do w/ that $$$?

My ex hated sailing, came to resent me for it (although that was just the symptom, not the cause) and was just a sour person. uke 
This time around it's like night and day!


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

Our backgrounds sound close enough that I could be in the same situation as you, but I'm very fortunate to have gotten the opposite result. We bought our first boat back in April, and I've been overjoyed to find that my wife has really enthusiastically embraced it. She is not a "water person" but she does enjoy being outside and we've gotten that in spades.

When we bought the boat we agreed to a two-year trial period: we'd try it out and see if we really used it or if it just sat at the dock. Well, we've been using it a little less than you and paying a little more for the slip, which has added up to a very enjoyable season for our family.

But you have to face facts: an expenditure of that sort requires a two-person agreement, in my opinion and in my understanding of what a marriage is. If I was in your situation I would use a two-pronged approach:

1. Explain to your wife that you love sailing on a visceral level, and it makes you happy to HAVE a boat even when you are not ON the boat.

2. Discuss the money situation and see if there is some sort of quid-pro-quo. Could she do something she likes at similar cost? Is there a house project that she could get in exchange (patio, bathroom remodel, etc?)

If she puts her foot down...well, I don't have any advice for you. Best of luck.


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## Sic Semper Tyrannis (Feb 19, 2012)

sww914 said:


> I had another friend sell a real 1973 RS Porsche about 10 years ago for $45,000.00 so she could get a new kitchen. The car's worth over $300,000 now and she needs a new kitchen again.


Amazing what those rs values have done. Who knew?

Keep the boat. You might have to live on it. But you wont regret it.


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

My *EX*-wife made me sell my boat.

Pretty much all I have to say on the subject.

Mike


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## HDChopper (Oct 17, 2010)

LOL Gooood Luck on that one my friend !

50 bucks a month is money well spent (And very cheap one trip to the movie house togather is more than that) on family togather time per month ...


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## WinterRiver (Oct 20, 2006)

Reading into your OP. "I'm sure i went out 25 or more times" Are you sailing alone, with out your wife and kids? " I dont make a lot of money but we arent poor either." Is she with the kids 24/7? 

Perhaps the issue is more the time away than the $.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Let me guess - she doesn't like sailing. 

Have you ever noticed how many things are advertised with the comment "Wife says must sell"?

Have you EVER seen an ad with "Husband says must sell"?

Keep the boat, sell the wife. 

Or do like I did - marry a girl who keeps saying "We need a bigger boat than this" until YOU finally say "Sorry dear, I can't handle a boat bigger than this".


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## jhorst1 (Oct 11, 2012)

Whats about getting a mooring Ball? You may be able to save some money and keep the boat....I would click my heels if I found that price in my area, that is mooring ball money for me.

Also what about cutting something else that you dont get much use out of...I mean we, for instance, cut our cable package down to a lower package in the summer months because we arent home as much..do we need to...no..but it saves us $200 over the course of 3.5 months....long story short I dont pretend to know your situation but Id bet you can cut some expenses that you wont miss at all and get real close to what that slip fee costs you.


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## AKscooter (Jan 18, 2009)

Welllll... let me preface this by saying my last marriage cost me oh around 400k....and gi a few more for miscellaneous fees. Was working nearly 6 days a week for 3+ years except for sundays, with 5 extra days off a year......I was killing myself....tried to explain that to the ex....well......she was more concerned about her security than my deteriorating health......anyway...it went very slowly and painfully.........Many times my thought was I would rather live in a tent on a muddy field than in the situation I was in.....so....Your dad had a dream and never had a chance.....you have a dream....started to live it and then....1,300 comes in the way of that...hmmm...what on earth can you get for 1,300 a year that is gonna replace the feeling??? More important what does she want that 1,300 for????? Some serious miscommunication is going on...and....with two small chillen' the courts are gonna rape you.....cactus style......ex friends and families are gonna too...... So what to do? Stand your ground? Kowtow? my advice...look for a way to find out the real issue that your wife is not telling you.....then see what the real cards are and play it the best you can. $1,300 is peanuts......but a person who is a miserable drain on your life is coyote ugly. (U would chew your arm off the morning after you slept with her just to get away) Sometimes the wrong one is just that the wrong one.....but I have to believe there are other issues besides 1,300.........good luck!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Not enough info.

Ask for advice to reduce cost, if you like. Your idea of a mooring is a good one. I also like the trailerable boat idea. 

But asking how to change her mind is impossible. We don't know her or why she believes your family can't afford what you are spending. I suspect there is something else she thinks you should be spending the money on. Is there?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

p.s. Love is grand........ divorce is 500 grand.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

PCP said:


> well this is not about sailing but about marriage...
> 
> If someone let go something that is really important that regret is going to bit hard on your life and it will be the sub-conscious motive for a lot of bitterness that will poison your relationship and can even end with your marriage...
> 
> Paulo


As a twice-married divorce lawyer who talks to many spouses about their marital difficulties, I believe Paulo has nailed this one. Tread softly, this is about your SOUL and your right to independence in your legal union. A spouse who strangles her spouse's soul ends up in marital unhappiness and eventual divorce.

You are trying to rationalize the cost as reasonable recreational expense. As some have pointed out, you will never succeed with that approach. There is a hidden agenda here, perhaps your wife's belief that you should be bringing in more income or that you need to pay more attention to her needs and less to your own.

Sailing is a fundamentally impractical and unnecessary expense. You need to communicate to your wife what this really means to you, including the irrational dream that your father passed down to you. You also need to discuss the idea that although you are married to each other, each of you has the right to an independent life within that relationship. You might both be happier with some independence from each other.

It could be a control issue and you can either submit or detach. Marital counselling is always a good idea to save a marriage. I hope you are able to solve this problem.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

a. My wife has learned I am much easier to live with if I get a certain number of hours of play. I will also work harder, without complaint.

b. We look at the boat cost as a part of our vacation spending. Air fare and lodging at a decent resort in a far away place put a pretty fair dent in the wallet too, and yet time spent someplace special with the kids can generate lasting memories too.

---Yup, it's always about choises. Yet we've passed the 20 year mark because we each get to make choises. When I was younger and had smaller finances I had smaller boats, now a bit more, but I wouldn't regret moving back down much and probably will when I get tired of the bigger boat.


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## daledog (Oct 16, 2009)

Find a friend who wants to sail, have them share expenses with you. Voila! Find 2, sail free. Find 4, start building up an account for an upgrade. get friends you enjoy being with and sail together! If she doesn't like sailing, and then is bitter you are having fun weekends, the kids will enjoy the weekends dad has visitation...


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

_"After my father passed 4 years ago at 61 I decided that if i keep waiting for the right time to own a boat, I might wait forever. He died never setting foot on a sailboat and always dreaming of doing so. I also want my children to know the freedom of sailing." -ABH3 Boyer_

Based on what you wrote here, I don't think you have a choice. This is not about your wife. This is about you and the water and, frankly - dreams and mortality. For what it's worth, I am the same and will do what I have to do. God chose to make us a sailors and we will sail. So sail. Apologize if you have to, but sail your boat. We will all be dead soon enough and then it won't matter.


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

jameswilson29 said:


> As a twice-married divorce lawyer ....


You should know better. 

I love a quote by a colleague of mine who is in his seventies: I didn't know what happiness was until I got married: then it was too late.


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## ldamj (Nov 14, 2011)

maybe a part time job to make the slip fee money.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

ABH3 Boyer said:


> Now I have about 5 months to get her to change her mind on this or were going to have a seroius disagreement.


You're going about this the wrong way. Your goal shouldn't be to get her to change her mind, it should be to show her why you enjoy sailing like you do and how knowing sailing can enrich the lives of you, her and your kids.

Taking the family away from all the electronics, creature comforts and distractions we now think are an every day part of life and spending some real quality time together is a great goal. Your time together will become much more enjoyable and fulfilling than any time you can spend ashore.

That your wife objects to the expense tells me she's not getting any enjoyment from the boat. Why not? You need to find that out, the real reason, not just the finances. If she's not coming with you when you sail, you need to figure out a way to open her mind to coming. You also have to show her the joys of sailing and that doesn't mean criticize her because she's not seeing it like you are. You can start with a weekend in the harbor and a little putt-putt along the shore at night. Very romantic! Whatever you do, do it slowly and pay attention to how she reacts. Don't force the issue!

If you sail without her, do you ever take the kids? If not, you should. Even if you never leave the harbor, you will enjoy a lot of quality time with them and get them used to the boat. And if they enjoy that time, your wife will see it and maybe be more open to joining you. Even if she doesn't, you will give her some free time to do what she wants while you have the kids. Women appreciate that. Even if she's completely turned off by sailing, she'll recognize the boat as that place you take the kids enabling her to get her R&R.

The boat has to bring her some pleasure or she'll never be able to justify the cost.


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## ABH3 Boyer (Sep 27, 2012)

The boat is a 26 foot Lugar. I can trailer it and launch it but setting up the mast every time I wanted to go sailing would take an hour out of a 4 hour sailing trip. I live only about 10 minuets from lake Erie. I got the boat for free and overhauled it with the proceeds from the sale of my last boat. As far as making extra money to pay for it I have already made arrangements for that. I'm a carpenter and have enough side jobs already lined up to finance it in full. The problem is that there is always something else that we need and dock fees fall very low on her list of prioritys. Our children like sailing but the wife dosn't. She was a fan of the power boat when we were moving but dosn't like the motion of a sailboat. I havent been able to get her out for more than a few hours and she definately dosn't relax while were underway. I think it might even be a controll thing with her because she dosnt become physically sick and shes not afraid of the water. She was a life guard for many years and can swim circles around me. I also spend money on nothing else. I'm the kind of guy that will wear a pair of shoes until there are holes in them.


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## ctl411 (Feb 15, 2009)

Ok the rest of the story. Don't sail ddw or to close hauled both will make someone new uneasy. Get her to steer helps with control issues. If someone starts to look green the first thing I try is to give them the wheel, this usually works for the nervous types.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> ive never seen blocks on the tack of the jib what do they help with?


Good for knocking out unsuspecting crew too.

As per OP: Don't concentrate on the cost per sail. You will never win that one. Look to reduce costs as much as possible, and either save money elsewhere or make slightly more money.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Any honest conversation about what she doesn't like about it will help. She may hate heeling over. The captain can mitigate that, perhaps at cost of speed, as an example. Taking your mate on the boat to do exactly what she wants to do pays off.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

ABH3 Boyer said:


> Our children like sailing but the wife dosn't.


You're in a tough place......

When I met my wife I was living on my powerboat. I started a business 6 months later & moved into an apartment which lead to a couple of houses. My wife grew up in a powerboat family & hates sailing.

I have always been around or out on the water since I was a kid & have always wanted a sailboat. My wife knew that upfront before she married me.

After 26 years of marriage Ruth told me if I bought a sailboat I might as well call it "Ruth Less".

Whatever you say dear......


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

First of all, who is bringing in the money in the home? If it's just you or just her or both of you I would say it changes things quite a bit.

How much is $1300 a year worth to you? If you're bringing in $25,000 a year and sailing is something you love then it's worth it. Still, it's always a good idea to cuts costs whenever you can. If you can double the number of times you go out you can cut each trip in half. If you can find someone else who has a similar boating interest he can use your boat too and help pay for some of the expenses. You're only using it once a week, so all he has to do is call you up the day before and ask if it is available tomorrow. If you don't call him back then it's assumed that you aren't using it and he can go out. So many boats sit most of the year it's amazing.

And most important of all: I don't know your situation, but I know that a lot of people tend to live beyond their means. Their income can go from $20,000 a year to $40,000 a year and they still won't have extra cash to spend because they got carried away and bought a much more expensive house, and 2 new cars, and all the other stuff that people buy but don't really need.

So, the problem may not be that the boat is too expensive, the real problem is that you got a $20,000 car new instead of a $3000 used one, a house that is too expensive, and you're paying for a bunch of electronic entertainment equipment that you don't really need. If this sounds like you, and you are the one bringing in the money in the home, I would say sell the cars if they aren't payed for, cancel monthly entertainment payments that you don't need, and downsize the house if you are making payments on it. After than, then you can consider getting rid of the boat.

I like how Dave Ramsey acts on his radio show when a caller tells him that they just bought a new car.

edit: Oh and I forgot, make sure half of your wealth, or a different ratio if you think it would be more just, is not in a bank or titled property before doing any of this. I can sort of understand her talking half in a divorce, but situations where the "wife took everything" are just outrageous.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

ABH3 Boyer said:


> The boat is a 26 foot Lugar. I can trailer it and launch it but setting up the mast every time I wanted to go sailing would take an hour out of a 4 hour sailing trip. I live only about 10 minuets from lake Erie. I got the boat for free and overhauled it with the proceeds from the sale of my last boat. As far as making extra money to pay for it I have already made arrangements for that. I'm a carpenter and have enough side jobs already lined up to finance it in full. The problem is that there is always something else that we need and dock fees fall very low on her list of prioritys. Our children like sailing but the wife dosn't. She was a fan of the power boat when we were moving but dosn't like the motion of a sailboat. I havent been able to get her out for more than a few hours and she definately dosn't relax while were underway. I think it might even be a controll thing with her because she dosnt become physically sick and shes not afraid of the water. She was a life guard for many years and can swim circles around me. I also spend money on nothing else. I'm the kind of guy that will wear a pair of shoes until there are holes in them.


Sounds like you have a much bigger problem than the boat. It sounds like you're just a wallet. My original advice stands.


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## Andrew Burton (Oct 22, 2012)

I would never part with a boat I loved. (Though I've parted a few girlfriends who didn't like sailing...but that's a different matter)
I think one of the most important things you can remind your wife of is that kids and boats are a great mix. You can get your kids into little league or soccer or just about any other mainstream sport. But in all probability, they won't go near that sport after high school. Sailing is a life-long sport. Whether they are mucking about in an Opti, cruising with the folks, or showing your grandchildren the joys of the sport, they will reap its rewards their whole lives. 
I am thankful every day that my father introduced me to sailing. It's how I met my wife, and now she's decided we need a bigger boat so we can spend even more time on the water together. 
Maybe you can think of a way to help your wife enjoy sailing more; go out only on calm days with her and make sure she has some Champagne to drink while you're out. Encourage the kids to fall asleep below while you enjoy each others company. Make it a rule to only talk about positive things on the boat. Sailing could be one of the things you do on your "date night." And there'd be no babysitter to worry about.
Unfortunately for our family, my mother hated sailing, or maybe just used it to try to put a wedge between my father and his children. We enjoyed many happy cruises with our father, but sad to say, my mother died alone and bitter.


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## ctl411 (Feb 15, 2009)

What did she like about the powerboat? What doesn't she like about the sail? Talk to her you may find it's a comfort thing. What size was the powerboat? You may find she would be happier spending more for a bigger boat. Win win.


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

We need a bigger boat.


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## GMC (Sep 14, 2009)

Wow. I think I'd go slow on the "dump her, keep the boat" advice. In my own life, preserving my family comes first. What comes second is the tough question, is it work/security?; is it friendships?; is it having a boat?; a car?; a motorcycle?" I don't know, to each his/her own. I had to wait until my early 50s to get the boat because of the realities of my life. Would I have liked to have had it earlier? Yes. Do I resent it? No more than a handful of other things that I would like to have or do, but haven't been able to yet. But that is the composition of life - achieving some sort of balance. Only you and your wife know where the red line of insurmountable resentment lies in your relationship. We sometimes think we have bumped up against it, but I'd take the winter to make sure.


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## kcblues57 (Jan 30, 2011)

Okay, this is coming from a wife’s point of view and I may be COMPLETELY off track but I have a few questions about your post:

First you say, “So at the end of this season my wife tells me she cant justify the dock fees associated with ME having a sailboat and she dosn't think WE can afford it next season . . . I went out 25 or more times . . .” Did you just fall into the first person on the sailing part or is this a family adventure? Are you using the sailboat alone? If so she may be feeling as if your hobby is taking both funds and time from the family, and with two small children I can imagine she’d appreciate your spare time being spent at home. If this is family adventure, then ignore everything I just said. 

Second, you say, “. Now I have about 5 months to get her to change her mind on this or were going to have a serious disagreement. I'm not willing to give up sailing.” I understand your passion and please understand that this is coming from a woman who’s jumped through hoops to keep her husband sailing because that’s his passion as well. But marriage is a partnership and neither of you should be coming to the discussion with a refusal to budge—not unless you’re willing to break up the partnership. 

Have you discussed your family budget? Are there bills that aren’t being paid because of your hobby? Are there necessary purchases (new car to replace a junker, shoes for the kids, paint for the house, etc) that aren’t being made because of your hobby? Don’t get me wrong—it’s fine to sacrifice for a dream but sacrifice is tough if you don’t share the dream. You mention the dock fees but I think we all know that’s far from the only expense for a boat owner. Take a realistic look at what you’re spending on this hobby before you have a budget discussion and be sure to include time away from your family (if any). 

Oh—and I read the rest of the chain before posting this and found that she doesn’t like sailing. I agree with the posters who suggested that heeling doesn’t endear a newbie, particularly one with small children in the boat to worry about. And please don’t suggest to her that she’s controlling you if she complains about heeling, because she very likely feels exactly that way about you—that you’ve talked her into coming along and then won’t consider her feelings and put a proper reef in the main. And yes, that is an issue for me and I’ll never understand why my husband insists on making me sail with fear when it would be just as easy to add a reef and both of us enjoy the sail. Of course, that may not be the issue with you and forgive my little rant if it’s not. 

Good luck.


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## arknoah (Oct 31, 2010)

Boy, so many good perspectives here. I understand your father's dream and these are the kinds of things spouses can understand, so you want to be sure that she is aware of that. The fact that you have a way to pay for the fees, yet something for the kids always comes up and the slip fees just don't come up high in her list of priorities also makes sense -- whether I agree with that or not.

Here's a silly question: If you were to have a powerboat instead of a sailboat and it had the same slip fees, would those fees suddenly move up in your wife's list of priorities? If so, then the whole motion of the sailboat might be one reason for her objections. As many have said, you are not going to convince her of _*anything*_, because it may not be a financial issue. And the only way to find out what is behind all of this is to talk about it more deeply than perhaps you already have.

Even for someone relatively young with young kids, your fees don't seem so outrageous to me, at least not for the potential pleasure you and your kids get from sailing.

And here's some really outrageous advice (that if I were in your place I *wouldn't* do because of the purchase cost) get a MacGregor 26 or a Hunter Edge; they both provide the chance to move straight out with their engines like a powerboat, yet can also sail. Sure, they're a compromise, and people just love to bash the MacGregors on most sites (mine's a 25), though I would suspect for many of us, the difference in performance isn't so noticeable.

Good luck. We'd hate to lose you from our little fraternity/ sorority on the water!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

This is what I do.

Never told the wife what I paid for the boat. I don't tell her what the slip cost, don't tell here how much the boat parts cost. If she really wanted to find out she could, all the bills are lying around for her to see.

What I do is make sure she always has a running car and some money, there is food on the table, the house is in reasonably good condition, there is money in the bank and money going to savings and retirement. The kids have adequate clothing. The kids do what ever sport they want and I take them to practice and go to their games. I also purchase what ever sports equipment the kids want as long as they are going to really use it (rather have them outside than watching tv or playing video games). The wife is free to do what activities she wants, and I'll watch the kids. I fix and maintain the cars, house and boat myself to save money.

What I don't do is: Smoke, Drink much, Chase women (do look though), Golf, Go to bars, Play silly sports where there are a lot of fees involved.

Note kids are not always overly thrilled about going on the boat, neither is the wife. Boat mainly for my sanity, although I do like getting the kids on the ocean, and it is good for them, they will have no fear of the water.

IF I did tell the wife what the boat cost, there probably would be a problem. Some things you are off better not knowing.

Good luck


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Is there a way you could make a couple grand over the winter? Justify the dock fees and maybe take her away for a couple of weekends with whats left over?

Or, ask the marina if they need some help in the spring/fall. Barter some or all of your dock fees.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

casey1999 said:


> What I don't do is: Play silly sports where there are a lot of fees involved.


?????  You have a sailboat don't you?


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## EJO (Jan 10, 2010)

The money is what starts it so equalize it. Dollar for dollar and if the family can't aford the extra $1,300 for her from what I understand then you must give up something to offset the expense.
Don't eat your lunch out during the week, don't eat out at the marina/weekend, etc. pack your lunch and your weekend food. Buy supplies for self and boat not at where the boat is slipped as most likely those are higher priced than close to home.
In other words you save that boating money and convince her to to enjoy it too. If all that doesn't work out you must pick the best of the two girls which most likely is the one you married (I did). After which you must make friends to go sailing with to get your fix.


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

Is there a way you can easily make extra money and null her argument? Whatever business you're involved in may have products or parts that you know all about that you can buy and sell. I know about Porsches so I used to buy and sell Porsche parts. For instance, I bought a dead engine once for $1000.00 I parted it out and got about $3500.00 for the good parts. Just the carbs alone (the first piece to go) sold for $997.00 and I got another $300.00 for the air cleaners. The point is that I knew that they were worth that when I bought the engine.
Another time I bought a pile of questionable transmissions for $150.00. I *thought* some of them might have had rare gear ratios in them. It turned out that 2 of them had some rare gears. The first set went for $300.00, the second for $425.00 and there was about 10 more sets that were desirable.
Almost everybody knows enough about something to do the same. If you can, you can just kill her argument about money and maybe get to the real issue.


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## ShoalFinder (May 18, 2012)

You have to have something, or some activity in your life, that is yours. If you don't you'll just end up hating your life and your wife anyway. A hundred bucks a month sounds like a lot, but most families blow much more than that on things you can't even remember at the end of the month. It is shocking to sit down and actually do a real budget. Most people discover that a huge percentage of their spending each month is on discretionary things, meaning not an actual bill or groceries.

I'm willing to bet your wife spends a damn site more than $1300 bucks a year on makeup, clothes, shoes, and handbags if she is any normal sort of woman. She'd blow a gasket if you told her she cannot spend any money without your approval. 

For some insane reason, we men are raised under this notion that our job is to cave on every disagreement in an effort to keep the wife happy. It took me 15 years of marriage to learn that this approach creates a monster instead of a wife. 

Before I gave up the boat I'd have her sit down with me and list every dollar we pay per month to prove that we can't afford the boat. If the money really isn't there, or your kids are doing without shoes- then the boat needs to go. In all likelihood, there is some meat on the bone in that budget. You can give up a little here and there to offset the boat cost.

A previous poster brought up Dave Ramsey. I am firmly in that camp. It took me way too many years to realize that it is truly amazing how much money you DON'T need when you have no debt. But I do not subscribe to the notion of living like an abject pauper to save every dime for retirement. You are one stroke or car crash away from losing every enjoyable boating day of your life. A fat retirement won't give you memories with your kids.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

sailordave said:


> Boats are a totally ridiculous expenditure that cannot be justified on the level of finances alone.
> 
> Having my boat has saved me over $240,000 in rent for the time I have lived aboard, not counting the cost of many Pacific crossings and local cruising, plus all accomodations ( compared to hotels) and the difference between cooking my meals on board vs eating out of restaurants, a highly justifiable expense , on "The level of finances alone."


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> ?????  You have a sailboat don't you?


Sailing is not a sport (I do not race), it is a way of life.

And for some, necessary for life.


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## buffalobrewer (Nov 1, 2011)

There are some boats moored off of Furhman blvd I think at Tift St. Not sure of the name of the marina there. THis might save you some $. 

Mike


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

kcblues57 said:


> Okay, this is coming from a wife's point of view and I may be COMPLETELY off track but I have a few questions about your post:
> 
> First you say, "So at the end of this season my wife tells me she cant justify the dock fees associated with ME having a sailboat and she dosn't think WE can afford it next season . . . I went out 25 or more times . . ." Did you just fall into the first person on the sailing part or is this a family adventure? Are you using the sailboat alone? If so she may be feeling as if your hobby is taking both funds and time from the family, and with two small children I can imagine she'd appreciate your spare time being spent at home. If this is family adventure, then ignore everything I just said.
> 
> ...


Wow. A lot of good female persective there.


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## nickmerc (Nov 2, 2008)

This topic interests me as my wife and I (together) made the decision to sell our boat. We both love it. Our daughter loves it. This is our only hobby. It was a very difficult decision. We (again, together) agreed that we would buy a small day sailer that we can trail to the lake, store in our backyard, and still enjoy sailing as a family. We will probably sail more than we do now since we can go to the smaller lakes close by. BTW, our slip fee is just under $3K annually. This is what will allow us to be financially responsible and continue to sail.

As much as everyone keeps telling you that money does not matter, you have to do what is comfortable for you. I find those that say money is not important have plenty of it. Before I got married I used to fly for fun. It got to be too expensive for me. I got into serious debt funding my habit. I made/make a good living as an engineer. My wife was lucky enough to never have been flying with me but still got to pay the bills. After we dug me out of the debt hole I created we bought our boat.

The economy is in the toilet. Jobs and money are getting more scarce. You and I came of age in a falsely strong economy (can we say tech boom and bust). Life is not like that right now.

You are married with kids. While having fun is important you chose the family responsibility. Sometimes you don't get to do what you want to do. Welcome to the real world. I tried doing what I want while ignoring the cost. I am now 10 years behind my peers financially. While they can really afford boats now, I have to sacrifice to many basic conveniences in life to afford it. Living life like you may die tomorrow is the opposite extreme of what your father did. Find a happy medium, be thankful for your family, and find a true compromise so you can still sail, even if on a small day sailer.

If you all think sailing is expensive, try flying.


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## timangiel (Sep 8, 2006)

buffalobrewer said:


> There are some boats moored off of Furhman blvd I think at Tift St. Not sure of the name of the marina there. THis might save you some $.
> 
> Mike


Those are the only ones I have ever seen, South End Marina?

Maybe Erie Basin Marina would let you keep it parked there on a trailer with the rig up, but you would still have to launch it everytime you used it. That would be a pain and you would end up using it less.

There are some docks over by the West Marine on Niagara street that might be less expensive, but you would need to go through the Black Rock Lock everytime you go out.

There is no easy answer for you, good luck.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I had a similar post typed up last night, but chickened out. However, because this thread keeps growing, I have to chip in my $0.02... 

You are concerned about whether or not you can afford to continue sailing. Here's news for you: owning a boat can usually NOT be justified as a good financial decision. (ya, I know that there are a few folks that have turned a profit, but they are the exception) Here is another bad financial investment; having children. 

I am assuming that you contribute to your household expenses and chores... 

The way that I would handle this, and I am not recommending that you do the same, would be to say; "OK, you win - I will give up the boat to protect our retirement, as soon as you give up one of the kids. Which one of the kids do you want to part with?" 

I hope that you wife realizes how lucky she is that you are even thinking about surrendering your passion to please her. She is also lucky that she hasn't married a crotchety old fart like me. 

Good luck to both of you!


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## MattSplatt (Dec 10, 2010)

ABH3 Boyer said:


> ... I can trailer it and launch it but setting up the mast every time I wanted to go sailing would take an hour out of a 4 hour sailing trip.


So the dock fees are a convenience.

If you started taking the boat out for, say, a 36 hour sail then the hour spent raising and lowering the mast would become more trivial. :-D

(just trying to add another perspective to this very interesting thread)


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

It's a trailer sailer...Find a marina you can leave it stored on land with the mast up...Then you just have to "load and launch" when you get to the marina...Anchor out whenever practical or possible (it's more fun than sitting in a slip) and cook on board...

I have my boat (26') on a trailer on Superior right next to the Apostle Island National park system ....

$80 a month on land is my major expence (4-5 month season) ...with a couple $30 transient slips from time to time just to emerse in the local flair... Less than half what your paying now and no worries bout sinking at the slip, getting hit by neighbors or trashed on the dock from surge waves....

But like most here, I don't think money is the real issue...need to find out what's really up with your lady...


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## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

Can you afford to sail? First of all, I have to say that I love sailing, I don't know why. I get a huge kick out of cutting two poles in the woods and tying my poncho to them and sailing my canoe down a lake. And I have my camping gear in the canoe and camp out where I stop.

I enjoy any type of sailing, from a sailfish (like a surfboard with a sail) to a huge expensive sailboat, they are all great as long as they handle well. I hate a dog of a boat that can't track and broaches. So you can adjust your sailing to your budget.

You can make sailing as cheap or expensive as you want. If you have money to burn, it's easier. If you want to go inexpensively, it might be less convenient, but then, I consider making money inconvenient. If you don't want to give up your home and live aboard, it's still possible to sail often.

I purchased a sailboat on a trailer less than ten years ago. My wife cried (literally). She said I'd never be able to fix it. I repaired it, and we sailed it for a few years. I sold it at a good profit. Without investing any more money I have gone from a centerboard 16 ft. dinghy to a 23' Hunter plus a 24 ft. Seafarer. OK, I have five boats, but only three are obvious if you visited me. 

By keeping my boats on trailers I have the luxury of having them close by. I can go anywhere my truck can go, and launch them myself. In today's market there are boats everywhere. I only look at ones that come with a trailer, the trailer seems to be free. Or the boat is. There are so many boats that the trailer is the deciding factor. It should be sound and have brakes. The trick is to buy boats that are basically sound but cosmetically awful. Take your time, cruise the Internet. Buy in the late fall. I could have huge boats for the same or no money, but I need to trailer them at this time in my life.

You should look into a mooring instead of a slip. It's cheaper, and your boat is always set up and on the water. You don't "need" to trailer a dinghy to get to the boat. We carry an inflatable canoe (Sea Eagle from Amazon, called a kayak but more like a canoe) which we can carry in the back of the car. We show up, inflate it, and paddle to the mooring. The car is cheaper to drive than the truck, which could carry a hard dinghy or canoe, it's a hundred miles round trip. If we have a lot of stuff, we can bring the boat to the dock and load up, but we usually just make a couple trips with the inflatable. Don't get a "turtle" shaped inflatable unless you have a motor. We tow the inflatable on a very short tether, and when done just deflate it and stow it, washing and drying the next day at home. We anchor out, and cook on board. My wife brings art supplies, her camera, and a good book. I bring a guitar and tools and dive gear. She likes to hold the tiller occasionally, read books and do pastels. I decided to ignore pastel stains on the cleaned and repaired boat. Last time out she wanted to do the anchor. I forgot to tell her about mud and she got very upset about getting mud on the jib. Big deal!! 

I spend more on beer than I do on sailing. I'd rather give up beer than sailing. If I sell a couple of my boats, I'd be $$ ahead of the game.

Yes, setting up the trailer sailer is inconvenient, but so is making more money and paying someone else. We go for at least overnight, so it's only set up, or take down. Arrive early enough to do the job. Do all you can yourself, all boat work is a ripoff. Get digital charts for free or cheap. With the trailer you can work on the boat at home. Heck, I slept on mine the last two nights just for fun. My back feels better than when I sleep in the bed!

I wouldn't be thrilled with a motor cruiser. I literally hate motoring, it's torture for me. Sailing is a joy. I'd rather watch paint dry than motor in a boat. I'd rather be poked in the eye. Heck, I'd rather make money than motor in a boat. Strangely, I think 95% of the sailboats we see are motoring, even in perfect sailing conditions. I like to sail onto and off our anchor or our mooring. Perhaps because when a child we never thought of a motor on a sailboat. But, you have to wait for wind and tide. Fine with me, I'm not out there to make money on a schedule. If I was I'd motor, but not enjoy it.


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## floridajaxsailor (Aug 4, 2010)

divorce


LOL

-JD


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

skygazer said:


> .....I'd rather give up beer than sailing......


Liar......  That's like trying to decided which child to save from drowning. Can't be done.


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

Just say no.


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## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Liar......  That's like trying to decided which child to save from drowning. Can't be done.


:laugher Well, I'll have to admit, beer tastes better after a long sail! So maybe I'd cut back a bit on both. Or, sell one boat, and "invest" the money in a boatload of beer! Lately I've been addicted to (made in Maine) "Frye's Leap" IPA. Rich, complex bitter flavor, I discovered it when sailing. Don't try it, you might like it.

Frye's leap is a local cliff on Sebago Lake where IIRC Frye (of Fryeburg fame) jumped to escape Indians. Extremely deep below the cliff. The bottom of the lake is below sea level.


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## cmbrossa (Apr 6, 2010)

Here is the #1 Rule of Living: There Will Never Be Enough Money.

I don't care who you are or how much money you have. If you're filthy rich, you'll fret about needing a bigger jet than the rock star next door. There is never enough money.

If you give up your boat it will be easy to fritter away the $110 a month you spend on dock fees. What, exactly, does yuur wife think she needs the $110 for? Is it really important enough for you to give up your boat? It may indeed be, but be sure!

I would start a budget tracking spreadsheet and account for every penny. Every last penny. You can find $110 a month. Some ideas: give up meat. Stop getting the paper. Get a cheaper cell phone or get rid of your land line. Cancel the cable. Ride your bicycle to work every day. No more eating out. Get rid of the 2nd car. 

One of the most important things you will teach your children is how to amuse themselves constructively. I have heard it said that addicts are a 1-trick pony, in that they don't know how else to soothe or entertain themselves. How many life skills can you learn from a boat? Navigation & seamanship. Radios. Angling. Repair skills. Self confidence. Camaraderie and teamwork. Camping. Really, you can't have a better family pass time than a boat. 

And you have to have your own space. You cannot be attached at the hip to your spouse. You both need to have SOME time on your own and come back with a cheerful attitude and a smile on your faces. 

A trailer isn't the answer. You have launch fees, and salt water wrecks the brakes no matter how well you wash them out. For a trailerable size boat, it isn't any cheaper than moorage.

Your heart's in the right place to even be considering giving up your boat. If you do decide it's more trouble than it's worth, you can always take up crewing. That's a lot of fun too. Good luck.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Wow! cmbrossa.... great post. So true. Especially the part about teaching your kids to amuse themselves - in other words, to enjoy life instead of pinching pennies for a smart phone. Because you are so right, they money will get spent, it will go.....


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> Wow! cmbrossa.... great post. So true. Especially the part about teaching your kids to amuse themselves - in other words, to enjoy life instead of pinching pennies for a smart phone. Because you are so right, they money will get spent, it will go.....


Or if we don't spend it, the tax man will take it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> Or if we don't spend it, the tax man will take it.


Unfortunately, there is some true to that.

I met with Alan Greenspan once, who said that America became the most prosperous nation in the world because we protected personal property rights better than anywhere else. If you earned it, you kept it and our government would not dream of taking it away. That caused people to invest, take risk, hire people and bring capital and innovation from other countries to the US.

While one can argue for an income tax, there comes a point when it is just taking from anothers effort. However, spend it or they will take it is clear in estate tax and is highly feared in retirement savings. Congressional fangs are out when they see the amount of deferred taxes in our cummulative 401k savings and the drool is spreading. When section 401k of the IRS code was first written in the 1970s, they had no intention of it becoming what it is today. Almost everyone had a regular pension back then, from companies that paid taxes. They were simply trying to supplement the idea that Social Security was not going to keep up. Yes, its been kicked down the road this far.

Off soap box.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Unfortunately, there is some true to that.
> 
> I met with Alan Greenspan once, who said that America became the most prosperous nation in the world because we protected personal property rights better than anywhere else. If you earned it, you kept it and our government would not dream of taking it away. That caused people to invest, take risk, hire people and bring capital and innovation from other countries to the US.
> 
> ...


Yes you are totally right.

With a large percentage of US citizens (maybe we should also include illegal imigrants) with no retirement savings, no pension, no 401k, and with Social Security going insolvent, where can we get the money to support these people in their retirement (or when for health reasons they are no longer able to work)?

Answer: The 401 k accounts for those that have saved and not bought the luxury house, the new car every 3 years, the latest style of clothes, the latest computer and I phone, not eaten out all the time, nor gone on pricey vacations.


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## CatMan22 (Apr 16, 2012)

After years of dreaming of owning a sailboat and much to the chagrin of my wife I bought a Gale Force 20, nice little boat with a cuddy cabin that was a blast to sail and overnight on, though she would never stay on it with me. The wife hated it but tolerated it because she saw the joy I got from it. The economy went down the tubes, my wife's business started to suffer so I sold the boat and gave her the money, which unfortunately did not prevent the collapse but only prolonged it of her coffee shop. Fast forward six months later I start looking through boat ads and discussing them with her and out of the blue she says "make sure the next one is bigger than the 20. I look around and find a Catalina 22 that needs work but shows a lot of promise and buy her. I spend three months retrofitting the interior, ask her to pick fabric for cushion covers, curtains, etc. She goes with to buy stove, cookware, all other items necessary to overnight and starts to get into it, but the thing that really changed her mind was one day we were sailing and I went below to get her a glass of wine and gave her the helm and instead of coming right back I sat in the companionway for 30 minutes or so and talked her through navigating across the lake, since that day she's been all for the boat, overnights and loves the meals we cook, and more importantly she discusses what features she would like on our next boat.


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## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

CatMan22 said:


> ....out of the blue she says "make sure the next one is bigger than the 20....


Very cool . I had a somewhat similar experience, I had similar sized boat, and I told my wife I wanted to get another, a larger one, or "maybe a smaller one that she could sail herself to learn on". She rather crossly replied "Well I'm not going to sail it if you get it." I took that as permission/demand (and agreement) to get a larger one, and we have both been happy ever since. She especially likes the galley where she has a sink with (foot pump) running water, and an alcohol stove where she can happily cook steaks, bacon and eggs, coffee and tea etc. The small fridge/freezer is the icing that allows us to stay out for as long as we want (and the beer to be ice cold).

By the way, I do trailer it, and usually can launch for free. After salt water submerging the trailer in a fresh water lake is a good idea.


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## biology (Oct 25, 2012)

Wow... what a thread... 

Topics: finances, relationships, child-raising, politics... a nice potpourri of some serious topics, and it's not just any one of them at issue here, but a strange blending of all of them. 

There have been some great relationship tidbits and financial recommendations. I'll second any comment that says to reduce overall expenses (lots of families have $200/month cable/internet bills and another $200/month cell phone... plus huge heating/AC bills because they keep the house 5 degrees warmer/cooler than it needs to be for the season). Bottom line, there are a lot of ways to save money besides getting rid of stuff that you really really enjoy.

My main thought (as someone with three kids): you need to make memories with them. My kids LOVE the boat and I love the fact that they do! I can't wait till some day they can crew totally alone and I'll kick back and watch them. I'm already proud of them for that moment and it hasn't even happened yet. They'll have their entire lives to think back to the times with dad on the boat... the sun, the picnic lunches, the overnights, floating around the water in life jackets, fishing, grilling... Hell, I know I'll be thinking about it all till the day I die. 

I remember when I was young our family fishing trips up to Ontario... It amazes me how often I think about those trips... one or two weeks out of the year can make more memories than all the other months combined. 

Take pictures... lots and lots of pictures... put them on facebook... print them out, frame them, and hang them on the walls in your house. When your wife sees all the smiles and good times and hears the kids begging to go out again next weekend, for the sake of the family and kids, I hope she decides to be part of it.

If the kids want to spend time with their dad on the boat then I think that's something to bear in mind. The cost of boat ownership is hard to justify financially, but the time with the kids aboard and the memories you'll all have are priceless.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

This just came back to me- 

Every year while my kids were growing up we spent a full week boat camping on Lake George. My wife grudgingly went along with it because of the out houses but it was the best. Sleeping in a big tent, star gazing on the boat out in the middle of the lake, cooking over fire. I have many memories. The one that comes back to me now is one hot sunny day my youngest boy and I motored over to the ranger office on another island andgot ice cream cones. The sky was blue, the water was like silk and we sat on benches watching the boats coming and going and eating ice cream. 

A big Sea Ray came in and we helped the guy tie up. He looked at us for a minute and he looked at our $3000 boat . His boat was easily 100 grand. He sat down with us and we chatted. He looked at my little boy happily eating his ice cream cone. He said you know family is the only real wealth. He asked about my family and I told him my other two sons and my wife were on the next island over. He said, you can get more money anytime, but the kind of wealth I had right then was the best. I never forgot that.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Looking for relationship advice on a sailing forum is like asking your marriage counselor what boat you should buy.

In other words there are really really good reasons why many of us here are on our second, and hopefully last wives.

I would like to hear your wife's side of the story, as it is very unfair to her for any of us to offer an opinion when we only get half the debate.
Are you maybe blowing off other commitments to go sailing? Are you not communicating, leaving your wife to wonder where the hell you are? Are you hanging out on the dock and drinking with your boat buddies and then calling her to come drive you home? Did you promise to do things like paint the trim, mulch the garden, build a playhouse for the kids and then blow it off to go sailing?

I understand the need for a slip.
$1300 a year buys you a clubhouse. drysailing doesn't. For some of us, a large portion of sailing is the dockside camaraderie. Go for a sail, return to dock, gather and share a meal, a drink, a sunset, some laughs, some ideas, some sweat when projects need to be done. Sailors often don't work or play well with others- that is why we enjoy the solitary sport of sailing. Many of us are not social types, except when others with similar interests are involved- hence the sanity-maintaining necessity of just hanging around the dock some days. Some of us are Lost Boys, and Lost Boys will always need a Wendy to keep them from getting too self-absorbed.

Don't dump on your Wendy. Don't resent her. Find out what she really needs and wants from you.

In other words, talk to her, not to us.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

One area I found that cuts the real cost of living for me is making my vehicle repairs a hobby. I save real cash doing my own work. I have gotten fairly competent. The work is done correctly. It goes way back for me. to the 60s so I have some experience now. It transfers to the boat, too. Automobile repair is a racket today. I wish our state cops would set up a sting squad. It constitutes grand theft.

A trailer boat would keep you on the water for the years it takes to build the income base you need to keep a boat at a slip. My Marshal Cat boat did that for me and I keep it on a mooring along with the big boat now. I hope you figure it out. I can't do with out the motion of the bay and the ocean air.

Do not wreck the lives of your kids over having a boat during their young lives. You will regret it a lot more than not having a boat.

Down


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## lillia28 (Aug 12, 2011)

I think it was Dorothy Parker who said " You can live without necessities, but when you give up amenities, you're dead".
As stated above,you need to sail with your wife more often.
Lou


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## joyinPNW (Jan 7, 2013)

My husband and I had a nice long talk before we got married:

1/ no couch potatoes
2/ we participate, not observe
3/ we wouldn't hold each other back from things we enjoy as individuals

Everything comes down to communication and having a true sense of self while allowing for differences of opinions. You chose a marriage so if you want to stay married, I'd spend some time off the boat with your wife and kids until this is resolved. But, I wouldn't sell the boat. I'd reinvest in figuring this miscommunication out. It's either now, or never.

My husband was widowed when we met and married. I'm glad we both were middle-aged and knew ourselves. We also profoundly understand that life is much shorter than we realize and the time we spend on our boat, doing the things we enjoy are priceless. 

But, I have to admit I didn't love sailing when we started (I love it now!) but I saw HE loved it and that made me happy. Happy people are better spouses so figure this out so you can stay married AND happy.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

joyinpnw said:


> ...we also profoundly understand that life is much shorter than we realize and the time we spend on our boat, doing the things we enjoy are priceless. ...
> 
> ...happy people are better spouses so figure this out so you can stay married and happy.


+1.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

WOW
10 pages of advice and much of it from divorced guys, that is like learning about explosives from a guy with no arms (just kidding)

Most of us blow more than $1300/year on coffee so I am sure that you will find the $$$ (a couple of side-jobs cover this). I would also bet that if you tell your wife how truly important this is to you as a family activity she will make every attempt to support you.

P.S.- I have been married to the same girl for 28 years


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

Can you afford to keep the boat? No. None of us can, but like crack addicts, we continue to pour money into our habit. 

I got started in sailing to have something we could do as a family. My kids have been sailing since they were toddlers and today, as young adults, we continue to enjoy sailing together. Best thing I ever did as far as my kids are concerned. 

Your boat expenditures don't seem too outrageous, but if you need to convince the wife that this is money well spent, calculate how much it costs you to keep her around. The boat is probably a bargain in comparison.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

This is an old thread; I'd be curious to find out what happened. Hopefully things worked out for the best.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

blutoyz said:


> WOW
> 10 pages of advice and much of it from divorced guys, that is like learning about explosives from a guy with no arms (just kidding)...


Divorced guys can be very wise. For instance, very few guys getting married for the first time would even consider a prenup...


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## SailingJackson (Jan 1, 2011)

There's a famous quote: 

"If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it" is commonly attributed to J. P. Morgan in response to a question about the cost of maintaining a yacht

But recently I read an op-ed piece that suggested the quote is misinterpreted. The common interpretation of this is that you need to have a lot of money to keep a boat. The editorial suggested that the point of it was more about how you value boating, not how much money you have. For those of us who have the urge (disease?), there is simply no question, we're going to be out on the water. It may be a super yacht or it may be a kayak, but we're going to do it. 

Remember there is no such thing as a practical boat, unless it's a work boat. All pleasure boating is impractical. In the same sense, there is no such thing as an affordable boat if you don't value boating.

I will disagree with those in the thread who would argue against your wife's viewpoint. I think that would only increase friction. My opinion is to keep the peace and get a boat that costs less to maintain. Working longer hours in order to keep the boat is not logical, it would end up taking away from sailing time. Going into debt is even worse.

G. J.


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## Ferretchaser (Jan 14, 2011)

Get a bigger boat. ....... errr yes I am single now but happy.


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## cyasurfin (Jun 12, 2012)

I have a small 14' dinghy sailboat (Lido 14) that I trailer.I also am a member of a sailing club in San Diego. It was a one time up front fee of$295 which included the ASA 101 class for free. I rent the larger boats and the monthly dues($30) are applied to the rental. I am able to go out for 4 hrs on a Catalina 22 for $45. other days , I sail the Lido. This arrangement works for me. Dock fees here run between $13 -20 per foot with long waiting times to acquire a slip. Maybe a similar arrangement might help you in your situation


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## Mavriikk (Sep 16, 2009)

Wear these the pants. Life is too short.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

jameswilson29 said:


> Divorced guys can be very wise. For instance, very few guys getting married for the first time would even consider a prenup...


When I got married there was nothing to list in a pre-nup (now I have even less...LOL)


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## Marcel D (Apr 15, 2012)

"Stand your ground" is not the approach I'd take. I wouldn't give in, either, but don't approach this as a confrontation- a good wife is hard to find and divorces are more expensive than dock fees. Discuss it.
You are both right. It's impossible to justify sailing from an economic standpoint. It's an expensive thing to do. However, if y"Stand your ground" is not the approach I'd take. I wouldn't give in, either, but don't approach this as a confrontation- a good wife is hard to find and divorces are more expensive than dock fees. Discuss it.
You are both right. It's impossible to justify sailing from an economic standpoint. It's an expensive thing to do. However, if you spend your life worrying only about money and not enjoying what you're doing, it's wasted.
Convince her that you are mindful of what it costs and you try to economize as much as you can, but sailing is too important to you to give up and the two of you need to find a way to make it happen.
Maybe if she gives up new clothes for 6 months? 
ou spend your life worrying only about money and not enjoying what you're doing, it's wasted.
Convince her that you are mindful of what it costs and you try to economize as much as you can, but sailing is too important to you to give up and the two of you need to find a way to make it happen.
Maybe if she gives up new clothes for 6 months? 


I agree with msmith 10 divorces are expensive and on the other hand sailing is not cheap either. Me and my wife owned a Beneteau 285 that cost us $295.00 per month to keep at Port Sidney in BC. We now own a Beneteau 34. In a 36 foot slip which is costing us $525.00 per month. We love to sail and spend about 31 to 38 day per year on the boat just kicking back. Stick to what you love dont be held captive.


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## ABH3 Boyer (Sep 27, 2012)

Let me start out by saying I was really looking for some good arguements in my favor. Not advice on how to get devorced. We have decided to agree on disagreeing. That dos'nt mean I won't be sailing next year. It just means that I will need to make some extra money this spring or deal with trailering it. I don't plan on throwing her overboard or sending her into exile as some have suggested. Fortunately we are able to disagree on many things and still work for and accomplish a common goal. Our Family. There is still a couple of months to work on her too.


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## Gramps (Sep 18, 2012)

While I am no expert on the subject you may want to investigate using the boat as a tax deduction. I believe the IRS allows a percentage of the cost of ownership to be deducted provided the boat has certain necessities and you live on it a few weeks a year. Worth looking into and doesn't cost anything to find out if you qualify.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Gramps said:


> While I am no expert on the subject you may want to investigate using the boat as a tax deduction. I believe the IRS allows a percentage of the cost of ownership to be deducted provided the boat has certain necessities and you live on it a few weeks a year. Worth looking into and doesn't cost anything to find out if you qualify.


Would not the only thing you "might" be able to deduct would be interest on the boat loan (if you have a loan) and maybe a state "property tax", if you state has this? I do not think you could deduct slip and maintenace fees.


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## Gramps (Sep 18, 2012)

Once again I am no expert. I did some quick research and it appears that it has something to do with deductions for a second home 2nd home so you are probably right about only the interest and such being deductible.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Gramps said:


> Once again I am no expert. I did some quick research and it appears that it has something to do with deductions for a second home 2nd home so you are probably right about only the interest and such being deductible.


Yes, that is my understanding. You can treat your boat as you would say a second (vaction home), but on your boat you need to have a toilet and cooking and sleeping facilities. Then you can make similar deductions that you would make on your home. If your boat was your home, same deductions would be allowed.

If you charter your boat, you probably could deduct all expenses (include dock fees and maintenace- it would be just like a rental house), but then I think you are limited to the amount of time you are allowed to use the boat each year (not sure but think it is something like 21 days a year).


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

This is a joke ...

Tell her that you were about to leave her and the kids because you just can't get it out of your mind how much you have given up. You gave up your friends, all of the extra money you had, all of your freedom, the motorcycle (you did want a motorcycle if you don't have one!), the sports car, you gave up dating, you gave up your bachelor pad, your video games, good movies (now you only get to watch Disney and "family" movies), and now you have to drive this stupid mini van all the time. That's it! you say, you're leaving! You just can't take it anymore! You feel trapped, and you feel like you are going out of your mind! You are going to go back to working in a fast food joint and hang out at the bar with your friends and go fishing on the weekends, she's on her own. Love just isn't enough anymore, and you hate her mom.

Then tell her haha, just kidding, but you're keeping the boat.

(By the way, I only read the first post on this thread and I'm going back to read the whole thread now, so hopefully this post is taken as the light hearted joke it is meant to be!)


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

Can you afford NOT to continue sailing???

Face it, it's a 'decompression' sport. Relaxing and recharging yer [inner] batteries. It'll smooth ya out, make you more even-tempered and mellow and better able to deal with the day-to-day stress of work/marriage/kids whatever.

Mebbe an approach like that?

Or; do a comparison budget vs golf or bowling in a league?? I did a few Regional matches per year. It worked out to much less than a (cheaper) vacation [for one] at the Shore. That and a couple weekends away were good for my soul.
I'm sure sailing will fill the same bill!


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I just finished reading this whole thread, it was interesting!

Too far outside of my realm of experience to make a serious comment about.

In a strange way it does remind me of this advertisement, however.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

ABH3 Boyer said:


> Let me start out by saying I was really looking for some good arguements in my favor. Not advice on how to get devorced. We have decided to agree on disagreeing.


Well I for one wish you the best of luck with your situation but quite honestly no matter how this shakes out, there will be no winners.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

ABH3 Boyer said:


> Fortunately we are able to disagree on many things and still work for and accomplish a common goal. Our Family.


It's always great to see an OP come back to a thread after a long absence, but you've still left many unanswered questions. Like, why is the family not involved in using the sailboat together. Clearly, wife sees no benefit to the sailboat, so who can blame her for disliking the annual slip fees?

Personally, there is no way I'd have a boat if my family was not interested in ever using it. That was sorta the whole point of getting the boat in the first place.


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## cyasurfin (Jun 12, 2012)

Best of luck to you. However you do it, just keep sailin'


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## schelli (Apr 3, 2012)

Can you afford to not sail ?


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