# Soft shackles a good idea?



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

Hey, a buddy of mine was telling me he's converting to soft shackles that he's making himself out of amsteel. Just wondering if anyone had thoughts about it, seems like a great idea but I'm mr conservative/scaredy pants.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Umm... why not just tie two bowlines??? Cheaper, easier and allows you to end-for-end the sheets to distribute wear.

I never use shackles on the clew of a headsail... to much potential for it to kill someone.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

Although the picture shows a headsail my friend is thinking of using them for every place there is a metal shackle. I really like the idea for halyards, one less metal thing banging around. I can see their use at the toe rail too, I already use mountain climbing spectra runners to get the metal off the metal there.

I actually don't imagine using them for the headsail, especially not as shown in the picture, larkshead works great there.

spectra is really starting to replace a lot of stainless steel on the boat, and I really like that trend. Check out a lot of new tackle from ronstan, etc, they are starting to use spectra loops for everything. The cat across from my slip is using spectra standing rigging and I've seen people converting to spectra lifelines a lot.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Lifelines and standing rigging doesn't generally have the chafe problems that running rigging and shackles will generally encounter. The real problem with soft shackles is that they will chafe through, so frequent inspection will be a necessity.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Are there more pics or reviews by those who use them?*

Who has used them that would like to comment?


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

Found this on SA, there are several comments about soft shackles. Turns out they think of them most frequently on jib sheets, makes sense when they say it...


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## allene222 (Nov 10, 2007)

This thread is fairly old but in case someone hits it I got interested in using soft shackles and wrote up 6 web pages on how to make them, how to use them, some variations, how to tie the knot. How to get them the length you want, etc. I also did some destructive testing and I can tell you these things are strong. Here is a link to the first article:
Soft Shackles


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## heinzir (Jul 25, 2000)

Great job on the articles!! 
Got me all excited to make up a batch!


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Lots of good info here Home

Here are their softies Softies | Colligo Synthetic Systems | Colligo Marine


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

Colligo has a video showing how you can make your own softie shackles if you don't want to buy them: YouTube - Softie Soft Shackle Construction- How to.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

SailingRandy said:


> Who has used them that would like to comment?


I have, on 3 boats. Since you remove them every time you put the sail and sheets away, frequent inspection is automatic. They are great. The sheets slide around the shrouds without hanging up on anything. If the sail flogs, well, the clew is heavier and harder than the softshackle. It's not going to hurt you.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Just going back to dear old Tenuki's original post one thing I would not do would be to put the thimble into the eye of the sheets. To me it defeats the purpose of the 'soft' bit.

Me I think these 'soft' or as I know them 'dutch' shackles are a fabulous idea. They don't let go, are easy to make, dead easy to use once you've made them and the reduction of bulk from the two bowline system seems to be worthwhile. Even better maybe, you could (if you have new line that has not been chopped into two sheets) simple create a whipped eye half way and attach that to the shackle.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

tdw said:


> Just going back to dear old Tenuki's original post one thing I would not do would be to put the thimble into the eye of the sheets. To me it defeats the purpose of the 'soft' bit.
> 
> Me I think these 'soft' or as I know them 'dutch' shackles are a fabulous idea. They don't let go, are easy to make, dead easy to use once you've made them and the reduction of bulk from the two bowline system seems to be worthwhile. *Even better maybe, you could (if you have new line that has not been chopped into two sheets) simple create a whipped eye half way and attach that to the shackle.*


Pretty smart for a fuzzy oversized rodent.


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## heinzir (Jul 25, 2000)

*Sticker Shock!*

Wow!  
The cheapest soft shackles at the Colligo site are $29 and $35 which is not totally outrageous as far as shackles go, unless you think of them as short pieces of rope, which they are. The larger ones go for $89 to $159 each. They don't say what size line is used for each "softie"; they are sized by SWL. The SWL of a line will vary according to how big a safety factor is desired. FWIW, Redden Marine sells 3/16" Amsteel Blue for *68 cents a foot *("average strength" 5400lb)*, *3/8" for $2.08/ft (19,600 lb "average strength") and 1/2" (34,000 lb) for $2.90.

It looks like this is one area where DIY can really pay off.

 Thanks allene222.


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## SilentLucidity (Dec 31, 2010)

Hello, could these softies be trusted to tie two anchor chains together ?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

SilentLucidity said:


> Hello, could these softies be trusted to tie two anchor chains together ?


Only if you really want to go aground...


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## allene222 (Nov 10, 2007)

heinzir said:


> Wow!
> The cheapest soft shackles at the Colligo site are $29 and $35 which is not totally outrageous as far as shackles go, unless you think of them as short pieces of rope, which they are. The larger ones go for $89 to $159 each. They don't say what size line is used for each "softie"; they are sized by SWL. The SWL of a line will vary according to how big a safety factor is desired. FWIW, Redden Marine sells 3/16" Amsteel Blue for *68 cents a foot *("average strength" 5400lb)*, *3/8" for $2.08/ft (19,600 lb "average strength") and 1/2" (34,000 lb) for $2.90.
> 
> It looks like this is one area where DIY can really pay off.
> ...


There is a length calculator just a short way down this page:
Soft Shackles

If you make the one in the Colloigomarine video, it will be big enough to hold a jib bolt rope to the forestay and that is about it. Forget about putting any lines through it. That size uses about 3 feet of 3/16. Basically, all reasonable ones would use between 3 and 4 feet at $0.55 at LSF Marine means they are about $2 to make. My testing on ones made from 1/8 Amsteel used a 100:1 mechanical advantage on a winch handle and it was very hard to turn the winch. They are very strong. Even at that I did not break a shackle but broke a strand of 1/8 Amsteel between two shackles so they are stronger than the line they are made from. I think Colloigomarine's strongest shackle uses 3/16 line.

Allen


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

SilentLucidity said:


> Hello, could these softies be trusted to tie two anchor chains together ?


Err...I wouldn't. Too much happens underwater that you can't see. They could chafe on an underwater object. Plus, they have almost no stretch which is a function of shock absorption.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

I haven't handled one of these yet, but it seems to me that there's very little to prevent them from popping open on their own. Is there no chance a wildly flogging jib clew might jostle it around enough to let the knot slide back through the loop?

I guess they'd be safe as long as a load is exerted, but I'm worried about what happens with repeated loading and unloading.

Also what about the issue of chafe on the shrouds every time you tack (again thinking about jib sheet attachment)?


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

Yes you will have to inspect for wear just the same as for wear on the jib or genoa sheet. Some soft shackles use the cover to close the eye . I like the posters use of a velcro strap to keep the eye closed in one of the links. That strap is like what is used around your pants leg on a bicycle, only a couple of dollars at a bike shop. Worth trying to make a couple of the shackles out of a bit of line to see how you like them.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Adam, I've used these for light air spin shackles and they work well. I flogged the sail on purpose for a while just to see if they'll hold. They did. I think if they're made correctly, they'll hold very well. I have had old snap shackles let go, interestingly enough.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Good to hear. I am thinking of picking up a few feet of dyneema today and putting one or two together over the weekend. Will be a fun project either way!


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

I made two soft shackles last night! I followed the Colligo Marine video. With the first one, the center section was too short, so you couldn't make the loop big enough to go over the knot. Also it took forever to do.

Second one was measured out much better. I left the tails on so I could work the knot a little tighter by hand before trying it out... someplace. It took less than 30 minutes, mostly because I got caught up passing the end through (fids are on the boat) and had to start over.




It's 3/16-in single braid dyneema. This is from a 36-in piece. Cost $2.97 at WM. The dye seems to come out really easily.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Yeah, the gray/silver seems to be the natural color.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I've been using the plain silver colour with no problems.

AdamLein, it seems to me that making them too short is a common enough problem. Even my later attempts are bit tight. I'm intending to get hold of some more Dyeema and having another go.


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## CapTim (Aug 18, 2009)

For what it's worth, having short shackles means you don't get two-blocked as quickly.. though that's not always terribly important


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

tdw said:


> AdamLein, it seems to me that making them too short is a common enough problem. Even my later attempts are bit tight. I'm intending to get hold of some more Dyeema and having another go.


I was being cheap with Dyneema on my first attempt. The video uses a 36-in piece and puts marks at 12 and 17 inches, and then cut off about eight inches worth of tails and threw it away. I used 21 inches and put marks at, iirc, 7 and 11 inches.

So my lesson is that a 3/16-inch line needs 5 inches between the marks to fit the knot through the resulting loop. Could probably do with less. The position of the 12 inch mark, I think, doesn't make a difference; it just determines how much line you have to tie the knot.

My resulting shackle was quite, I thought, large. It would probably not fit in the headboard of my mainsail, but it should be fine for jib heads and clews. I would hesitate to use it on spinnaker sheets because of chafe in the pole jaws. Anyway, I'll probably get some 1/8-inch gray dyneema and try again with a smaller gap between the marks (thinking 3.25 inches).



CapTim said:


> For what it's worth, having short shackles means you don't get two-blocked as quickly.


I've heard of this issue but don't really know why it's a bad thing. Are you worried about the shackle jamming in the sheave?


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## CapTim (Aug 18, 2009)

Nah, but if you are trying to tighten, say, a guy pole or a tack line or any handy-billy, you can't tighten things past the point where two shackles touch. So if your shackels are quite long, you might end up not being able to tension things as much as you like. It's more of a racer thing, and I'm not a racer.. but I know a lot of racer types who like to have short shackles for that reason


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## allene222 (Nov 10, 2007)

If you make them like the video, they are too short to fit around a pair of jib sheets. I think the ones in the video must be for replacing jib hanks where they are just going around a forestay and a bolt rope. I made a calculator for calculating the length of line and the various markers that might be of interest. It is opposite the second picture on this site Soft Shackles

Allen


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## jfurlong (Apr 16, 2010)

I posted this once before on a different forum, but here it is again.This is what I use for head-sail shackles. It's permany tied in to the sheets, quick for head sail changes, and light weight.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

There is also the old low-tech version, handy for many round-the-boat tasks.

Sail Delmarva: Soft Shackles, Stropes, and Square Riggers

The real advantage of any "soft-shackle" in my expereince is that they can't scratch gel coat and don't jam like a knot.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

allene222 said:


> If you make them like the video, they are too short to fit around a pair of jib sheets. I think the ones in the video must be for replacing jib hanks where they are just going around a forestay and a bolt rope. I made a calculator for calculating the length of line and the various markers that might be of interest. It is opposite the second picture on this site Soft Shackles
> 
> Allen


Allen: great site, the calculator will be quite useful! Is there an easy way to change the numbers for different diameter line?


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## SailingWebGuy (May 5, 2010)

Here's a few I whipped up today.. Used Colligo's video.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

SailingWebGuy said:


> Here's a few I whipped up today.. Used Colligo's video.


They look good. However Allen is correct that they're a bit small for most purposes other than maybe hanks... what do you plan to use them for?


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

AdamLein said:


> They look good. However Allen is correct that they're a bit small for most purposes other than maybe hanks... what do you plan to use them for?


Is there any structural reason they cannot be any length?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

One possible drawback of the soft shackle, if you use your spinnaker pole downwind on your headsail.

If you put eye splices into your sheets and connect them with a soft shackle they can easily become jammed in the jaws. Naturally enough this will depend on the relative size of your sheets the eye is much more likely to get caught up in the pole jaws, where a bowline creates a much larger obstruction. 

I noticed this on a boat we crewed on during a few twilights this year.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

pdqaltair said:


> Is there any structural reason they cannot be any length?


Not to my knowledge... just a matter of convenience. The ones in the Colligo video come out actually quite small.



tdw said:


> If you put eye splices into your sheets and connect them with a soft shackle they can easily become jammed in the jaws.


Good point. This would especially be a problem on my pole, I think, because of the shape of the jaws. I wonder if there's something one could fit over the sheet between jaws. A large wooden bead would do, but this defeats at least one of the purposes of a soft shackle if you want to use the same sheets in stronger winds without a pole.


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## SailingWebGuy (May 5, 2010)

AdamLein said:


> They look good. However Allen is correct that they're a bit small for most purposes other than maybe hanks... what do you plan to use them for?


No plan on where to use them yet. Just wanted to learn how to make them. The inside diameter of the larger ones in the pic is about 1"3/4.


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## genieskip (Jan 1, 2008)

SailingWebGuy said:


> No plan on where to use them yet. Just wanted to learn how to make them. The inside diameter of the larger ones in the pic is about 1"3/4.


They look the perfect size to connect sheets to the clew of a jib. I'm going to order that stuff tomorrow and practice making some. Not sure where I'm going to use them, but use them I will.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Anyone have advice on making the stopper knot? I've looked at the video, but have a hard time picturing it when the 2 lines are parallel instead of coming at each other. Any advice?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

zz4gta said:


> Anyone have advice on making the stopper knot? I've looked at the video, but have a hard time picturing it when the 2 lines are parallel instead of coming at each other. Any advice?


Go over the video again. I am , I sadly admit, something of a klutz when it comes to knots and I managed to work it out. OTOH....the type of knot itself is not all that crucial. When I was originally playing around with the soft shackles I found even a simple stopper (figure of eight) will work. Just doesn't look as good.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

I did the figure eight, under load I don't see it as a problem, but rolling it around it can work lose. stuff is slippery.


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## SailingWebGuy (May 5, 2010)

The knot isn't hard if you follow the video. After doing one along with the video you'll be able to tie em easily.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

I was looking at animated knots. Yeah, the video is a lot easier to follow. Thanks guys.


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## allene222 (Nov 10, 2007)

zz4gta said:


> Anyone have advice on making the stopper knot? I've looked at the video, but have a hard time picturing it when the 2 lines are parallel instead of coming at each other. Any advice?


Here is a page on the diamond knot Diamond Knot
And here is an animation on the knot Diamond knot animation


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

btw .... one thing to be aware of ... you need to make sure that the shackle itself is large enough that it wont jam in something. When polling out headsail for example I've seen soft shackle jam in the pole jaws. Trap for unwary players.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

tdw said:


> btw .... one thing to be aware of ... you need to make sure that the shackle itself is large enough that it wont jam in something. When polling out headsail for example I've seen soft shackle jam in the pole jaws. Trap for unwary players.


Good point. And the higher the load, the more likely it is to jam.

Somewhere I have seen somebody using a largish lignum vitae bead on the line (think it was an afterguy in this case0 between the shackle and the pole jaws. Probably this would for halyards as well. But where do you get such things?


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## allene222 (Nov 10, 2007)

AdamLein said:


> Allen: great site, the calculator will be quite useful! Is there an easy way to change the numbers for different diameter line?


Sorry to take to long but I have finally updated the calculator to work for a few different line diameters.
Soft Shackles


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

allene222 said:


> Sorry to take to long but I have finally updated the calculator to work for a few different line diameters.
> Soft Shackles


Huzzah!

By the way I used your calculator/instructions a couple weeks ago to make soft shackles for my new lifelines. The instructions were really good, as evidenced by the fact that I don't need them anymore!


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## PaulfromNWOnt (Aug 20, 2010)

I've found myself wondering if line length is critical. I've made quite a few of them to pass time (non load bearing/not for marine use), and have found that I can coil the cord around to make variable loop length, then complete the splice and make the knot. If I'm using the right sized fid, then the rest is just a matter of working things in the right direction to get the desired result.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Hey Paul. Fundamentally I don't think it is critical; assuming you have enough to do the knot on either side of the marks, only the spacing between the marks is critical. However the line in your photo looks like polypropylene to me; Dyneema's a bit pricier so ideally you don't want to waste too much of it. If you want just enough to be able to tie the knot, then the original line length is more important.


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## PaulfromNWOnt (Aug 20, 2010)

Yes it is polyprop, costs just pennies to play around perfecting technique. As I stated, they aren't meant to be used and will never be found on my boat.

As far as I can tell, the spacing between the marks is there to determine loop size which I have done simply by forming the loop and then marking it. I wonder though, given the price of everything else we do to our boats, is an extra dollar of line going to be that detrimental?

BTW, my "fid's" bear a striking reseblance to phillips head screwdrivers.


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## wordsort (Feb 17, 2011)

Is there any particular reason that you can't just take a short piece of line and tie the two ends in a knot?


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

PaulfromNWOnt said:


> I wonder though, given the price of everything else we do to our boats, is an extra dollar of line going to be that detrimental?


I dunno. I consider myself a cost-conscious sailor, and I do hate throwing away bits of line that are too short to use. If you're making many soft shackles, it would add up... to like, $10.

Anyway I can't think of any other reason that the total line length is relevant, since you can always trim the tails at any point.

Actually, no, that's not true. If you try to use a piece of line that is _too short_, then you won't be able to make the shackle at all. So actually it's a _minimum_ length of line.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

wordsort said:


> Is there any particular reason that you can't just take a short piece of line and tie the two ends in a knot?


Knots weaken the line, and the line we're talking about using here can't be easily knotted anyway. It slips.


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## wordsort (Feb 17, 2011)

I used some to put a pair of blocks on the genoa tracks. It does slip, but I just put glue on the knot. If I need to take the blocks off I'll just cut it. As for knots weakening the line, some are better than others. It will still be stronger that the block I think.


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## PaulfromNWOnt (Aug 20, 2010)

Knots do indeed weaken the line, but we tend to use oversized line for ease of handling. Shackles are nice because they allow multiple use which cutting wouldn't allow.


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## zibadun (Mar 19, 2010)

zz4gta made a few from Dynema for my boat and they work great. The original strength probably goes down quite a bit compared to SS after a couple of years of use and exposure to UV. I'm guessing they would still outlast the jib sheets they are attached to...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Zibadun,
The first time I saw one of these things was on a mates boat some four or five years back. He has transferred them from his previous boat so I have no real idea how old they were at the time but by now certainly well past five years and still going string.


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## allene222 (Nov 10, 2007)

I think the real advantage of using soft shackles for jib sheets is that there is no knot to hang up on the rigging. It make a huge difference in tacking with overlapping genoas.








I have a dozen articles on soft shackles, several unique varaties on L-36.com. The introductory articles is Soft Shackles

Allen


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## mikrlsCT (Feb 8, 2012)

*I have been using them for years*

While this thread is old.....

I have been using them for the last 20 years for my jib sheets. Never had a problem with them. They make changing headsails easier and faser - just button and go.


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