# Inner forestay addition



## jraymer (Feb 23, 2012)

How much of a problem is it to add an inner forestay to a sloop rigged boat? I am thinking it would be nice to have more sail plan options because I mostly single hand. I was thinking detachable at the deck and equipped with roller furling.
How would you attach stay to mast?
How would you add a halyard?
Would you have to beef up the deck?

Thanks.

Jim.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

This is called a Solent Stay. If you search the internet you will find a lot of information on adding them.

You need to figure out how you'll beef up your foredeck to handle the load. This is normally done with a stay mounted inside the boat going from the inner part of the foredeck padeye down to the bow.

I've looked into this pretty seriously on my boat, so that I can run hank-on 100% and storm jibs for higher wind days. It looks like it will be about a $1000-$1500 project not including the sails, but including the cost to drop my mast.


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## CanadianNorth (Jun 11, 2013)

jraymer said:


> How much of a problem is it to add an inner forestay to a sloop rigged boat? I am thinking it would be nice to have more sail plan options because I mostly single hand. I was thinking detachable at the deck and equipped with roller furling.
> How would you attach stay to mast?
> How would you add a halyard?
> Would you have to beef up the deck?
> ...


I am very interested in this as well

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jraymer (Feb 23, 2012)

Alex.

Being able to go to a heavy weather foresail is what got me thinking about this modification.
Could the stay be farther aft than your thinking, by the forward cabin hatch?

Jim.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

The upper mount of the stay needs to be close to the mast head, or you will be stuck adding running backstays to support the mast at the new forestay location. If you did this but left the new forestay running far aft you would end up with very high aspect ratio sails. I'd rather have a normal aspect ratio so that used sails could work.


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## CanadianNorth (Jun 11, 2013)

jraymer said:


> Alex.
> 
> Being able to go to a heavy weather foresail is what got me thinking about this modification.
> Could the stay be farther aft than your thinking, by the forward cabin hatch?
> ...


I am thinking of a stay behind the anchor locker up as high on the mast as possible . I am primarily interested in a storm jib

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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

I would really advise checking with a real rigger, someone like Brion Toss. You need someone who has the wherewithal to do the calculations on the rig to determine if it is even possible, if it is if you need running backs (not all masts need them if they are strong enough already), where to put the Solent stay, and what type of force it will experience. 

Frankly I don't get the advantage of doing this. Presuming you have a relatively modern roller furler on the headstay, it is much easier to just take it down and put up a storm sail before storms roll in. And this approach doesn't require you to furl the big headsail every time you want to tack it just to get it passed the second stay.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I agree with the advice to work with a qualified rigger.



Stumble said:


> Frankly I don't get the advantage of doing this. Presuming you have a relatively modern roller furler on the headstay, it is much easier to just take it down and put up a storm sail before storms roll in. And this approach doesn't require you to furl the big headsail every time you want to tack it just to get it passed the second stay.


Changing head sails on roller furling when single handed is not very easy. You need to deal with the halyard and feed the sail at the same time. It is a lot harder than with hank-on sails. The luff tape sails are also harder than hank-on sails to flake properly singlehanded, especially while on the boat.

With a solent stay the inner forestay is removed when you use the roller furling sail. On a modern implementation the solent stay will be a low stretch synthetic (like Dynex Dux) that is stored alongside the mast when it is not in use.

From my point of view the solent stay gives me the ability to use my 135% genoa most of the time (it is the right sail when winds are 15kt or less, which is typicaly here in Seattle) with all of the ease of use of roller furling. In higher winds I could deploy the solent stay and run a 100% jib and then when it is time to double reef I can hank on a storm jib.

It is possible to roll down my 135% genoa to a 100% jib, but even with a high end furler and foam luff panels the shape is not as good as a properly cut 100% jib.

Without this setup I have trouble pointing much at all in winds over 30 knots. The boat gets overpowered until I reduce sail, and the sail shape of a 50% rolled up jib is too poor to point. Running on main only works best, but my boat doesn't point very well on main only.

The solent stay is still enough work and cost that I'm heavily considering having a heavy weather 90-100% sail (that can be rolled down to 60 or 70% pretty well) cut for my boat and changing sails on heavy air days.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

There's a lot to think about this. I have a solent rig from the get go and I love it. Still it's a PIA when using the 140% genny coastal. It means everytime I tack the genny I have to roll the genny , tack, then roll it out on the new side.
Also a solent does not replace a true storm jib. For me this is an issue only >50kts. Boat came with a padeye anchored below deck to my forward watertight bulkhead for a stormjib stay. However, leaving this attached is also a PIA. SO- I just rigged a dyneema stay with a tensioning device at deck level. The top has a ball which fits into a slot in the mast. I already had the running backstays which I leave unrigged coastal. When going offshore the stay goes up, the stormsail rigged and left on deck and the running backstays rigged but left at mast pulpits.

In short BEFORE spending any money get a good rigger to look at your boat. See what's possible and what it will cost. Think about how you really use the boat and what deficiencies you think you have at present. Explore your needs and options before deciding prematurely by internet search which solent supplies you will install or if a solent is the right thing.


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## jraymer (Feb 23, 2012)

The first thing I am going to do when I, if I, start this project is consult a rigger.
What I would really like to do is have a detachable inner stay connected to the deck maybe halfway between the mast and bow, run up to the mast at the same angle as the head stay dedicated for a storm jib.
The problems I'm concerned about are, beefing up the deck at that attachment, reinforcing the mast at that attachment and would the jib be too far aft to be efficient.

Jim.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

jraymer said:


> The first thing I am going to do when I, if I, start this project is consult a rigger.
> What I would really like to do is have a detachable inner stay connected to the deck maybe halfway between the mast and bow, run up to the mast at the same angle as the head stay dedicated for a storm jib.
> The problems I'm concerned about are, beefing up the deck at that attachment, reinforcing the mast at that attachment and would the jib be too far aft to be efficient.
> 
> Jim.


You'd be turning the 'sloop' into a quasi-cutter with that setup, and having the inner forestay so far below the masthead will require runners to maintain tension of that stay in a blow, as Alex W already pointed out. This complicates the job a bit, as you'll need not only an adequate anchor for the stay itself, but also for the runners (Though if you've got a perforated toerail that might do the trick) plus a free winch or adequate tackle to tension the runners.. it's also 'another job' on each tack.

The solent stay idea simplifies and achieves what you're after.. KISS usually works...


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## jraymer (Feb 23, 2012)

Thanks for your input faster. An easily detached solent stay for a storm jib so I wouldn't have to worry about changing a furled head sail to put up the storm jib would do what I want. Food for thought.

I just re-read everybodys posts and it took me a while get what you were saying. Duh.

Jim.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Faster said:


> You'd be turning the 'sloop' into a quasi-cutter with that setup, and having the inner forestay so far below the masthead will require runners to maintain tension of that stay in a blow, as Alex W already pointed out. This complicates the job a bit, as you'll need not only an adequate anchor for the stay itself, but also for the runners (Though if you've got a perforated toerail that might do the trick) plus a free winch or adequate tackle to tension the runners.. it's also 'another job' on each tack.
> 
> The solent stay idea simplifies and achieves what you're after.. KISS usually works...


until you need to tack .....


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

This summer I sailed on a boat that had one of these:
ATN Sailing Equipment | The Gale Sail | Easy Handling Storm Jib

Basically a storm jib that hanks on around the furler so you don't need an extra stay or have to take down the furler. It was easy to use when we played with it, but that was in almost no wind and tied to the dock. Your mileage may vary in a gale...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

tdw said:


> until you need to tack .....


.. meaning the tight clearance between stays??

I think most 'fixed' solents are on furlers and the forward sail is not intended to be 'tacked' without furling/unfurling.. if detachable presumably the stay is 'out of the way' when using the forward set.

But honestly I think for most coastal cruising all of this is a bit of overkill.. generally we're not far from shelter, pick our travel days and can wait out bad weather if that's what we want. For a short 'lets get the hell out of this' run to harbour a partial roll, or single sail will get the job done.

Offshore that's a totally different scenario....


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

I worked out this same modification for my I-28. I have drawings for a deck fitting that mounts against the aft end of the anchor locker. All the rigging was professionally designed.

I have hank on head sails. A man who I have great respect for and, who understands the sail plan and sailing characteristics of the Islander-28 quite well, gently advised me that the head stay, carrying a storm jib. would be all the boat needs. A solent stay was unnecessary. As Faster said, "overkill". The man was Bob Perry. Thanks again Bob.

Down


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Faster said:


> .. meaning the tight clearance between stays??
> 
> I think most 'fixed' solents are on furlers and the forward sail is not intended to be 'tacked' without furling/unfurling.. if detachable presumably the stay is 'out of the way' when using the forward set.
> 
> ...


Yep .... if you have the Solent rigged you have two choices. Furl come about unfurl or someone on the foredeck to guide the outer through the gap. Either way, something of a pain. A standard cutter or non solent double headsail sloop will usually allow the outer sail to slide past the inner stay. Not a perfect way to treat a piece of sailcloth I do admit.

Otoh, if you are not in a screaming hurry and you have a bit of wind then to hell with the head, just use the inner. Only negative with that is you'll get a whiff of excessive weather helm. As the wind increases balancing the boat by reducing the main makes for a pretty effective setup that is easily handled.

All of this said in relation to cruising not racing mode.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

downeast450 said:


> I have hank on head sails. A man who I have great respect for and, who understands the sail plan and sailing characteristics of the Islander-28 quite well, gently advised me that the head stay, carrying a storm jib. would be all the boat needs. A solent stay was unnecessary. As Faster said, "overkill". The man was Bob Perry. Thanks again Bob.


I wouldn't even consider a solent stay if I had hank-on headsails. The solent stay is just the most effective way that I've seen of getting a storm jib onto a boat with a roller furling headsail.

The other options are a tape luff storm jib and changing sails (harder, but do-able) or the ATN storm jib that slides over a furled headsail. I've read that the ATN option works very poorly.

I do often wonder if the benefits of roller furling are really work it on ~30' boats.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

My "old" (all my boats are old, Ha!) Rhodes 22 has a roller head sail. I love it. Release the line in the jamb cleat and... Your off! There is nothing more convenient on a sloop. But!.... I love the hank on sails on my Islander. I am not in as much of a hurry as I was when I sailed the Rhodes. I guess? Getting underway as quickly as possible isn't that important. Choosing which sail to use. Reefing it if necessary. Dealing with hanks on the head stay are just part of the day's sail. I store the 135 in a jib bag, hanked on, with its reef in. It is a very responsive boat. Sailing with the reef (working jib) is comfortable. Shaking out the reef is no big deal. There are always the 180 and the sym spin for calm days. A high cut storm jib and storm tri sail should do all the "sailing" necessary. Adding a track for the tri sail is a good next step if long offshore travel is planned. I am sailing along the coast and really don't need the storm gear yet. I keep thinking we should grow our boat a little and make longer trips more comfortable. It keeps getting put off. A bigger boat means bigger head sails and probably a roller jib! Ha! Then I'll need a solent stay!

Down


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Stumble said:


> ...
> Frankly I don't get the advantage of doing this. Presuming you have a relatively modern roller furler on the headstay, it is much easier to just take it down and put up a storm sail before storms roll in. And this approach doesn't require you to furl the big headsail every time you want to tack it just to get it passed the second stay.


The reason that boats rigged for offshore use have the inner forestay is that a storm jib flying off the forestay results in an unbalanced boat, as the center of effort ends up too far forward. Plus the jib will not work in concert with the trysail due to the large slot.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> The reason that boats rigged for offshore use have the inner forestay is that a storm jib flying off the forestay results in an unbalanced boat, as the center of effort ends up too far forward. Plus the jib will not work in concert with the trysail due to the large slot.


Those were my concerns but Bob indicated that the size of the sail plan for the I-28 made them inconsequential. On a bigger boat they would apply. I must say that sail balance is sweet on this boat. So far. I have yet to fly and test storm sails but I take him at his word.

Down


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## jraymer (Feb 23, 2012)

jraymer said:


> The first thing I am going to do when I, if I, start this project is consult a rigger.
> What I would really like to do is have a detachable inner stay connected to the deck maybe halfway between the mast and bow, run up to the mast at the same angle as the head stay dedicated for a storm jib.
> The problems I'm concerned about are, beefing up the deck at that attachment, reinforcing the mast at that attachment and would the jib be too far aft to be efficient.
> 
> Jim.


The reason I started thinking about an inner stay was, on a 40' boat, using your head stay for a storm jib seemed too inefficient. Any ideas on my above questions. So far, I like the detachable solent stay idea but I'm still concerned about boat handling. Would a storm jib put enough force on the inner stay to cause problems for mast and deck?
Thanks everybody.

Jim.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Am I right in assuming this is all theoretical at this point? There's no specific boat in the equation yet?

It might make sense to narrow down the premise.. for example what 40 foot boat might you have in mind, or even what sort of 40 foot boat are we thinking of? We talking Valiant 40 or Olson 40? The type and actual construction of the candidate boat will have a big bearing on whether or not load bearing attachments would be practical, or doable.. or necessary... At this point it's all a bit open ended, and, depending on your intended use, perhaps overthinking it all to begin with...


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

These kind of discussions really need to be specific to the boat in question. For example there are designs with propotionately huge fore traingles. Rigs like these have plenty of space for a temporary stay for a storm jib, and have such large working sails. They need that stay because it is impossible to furl these big headsails down to a small enough storm size while retaining a decent shape. 

But other on other boats, the foretriangle is small enough that it makes less than zero sense to add a second forestay. In most of these cases the jibs are a small enough proportion of the rig, there there is no point in adding a second stay. For single handing you simply get sails that are configured to be 'all-purpose' and designed for use in a wind range from 3 to 25 knot. 

Frankly, I have never been a fan of the so called Solent Stay (which historically was two stays side by side rather than the current iteration with one in front of the other.) It trades off a slight amount of ease in not having to do a sail change for having to roll in your largest sail every time you tack or jibe it. Frankly this is a left over from times past when you could not make sails out of lower stretch fibers or vary forestay tension to flatten the sail. 

But as other have noted, should you chose to buy a boat which could be converted to a 'quasi-cutter' (I like that Ron) then make sure you have enough fore-triangle space to make that work, and you will need to add check stays (running backs that don't reach the masthead) and all of the proper chainplates and associated structure to resist the rigging loads. 

Of course, buying a boat with a large enough foretriangle to make adding a second stay reasonable, means that you will have huge jibs to drag around on each tack making single-handing way harder most of the rest of the time. 

Jeff


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

There is a vocabulary issue on this thread.

A Solent stay has the head very close to the head of the forestay and the tack close to the tack of the headstay. They are perfect for a 135 or 150 genoa on the headstay and a 100 jib on the Solent stay.

An inner forestay has a head substantially lower and a tack substantially further aft. This configuration is amenable to staysails and/or storm jibs on the inner stay.

There are also babystays yet closer to the mast that work in some cases for storm jibs.

Any of the three could be removable. I've never seen a removable babystay as they are usually rigged to keep a slender mast from pumping.

If you can get the head of your inner stay (Solent or inner) close to the masthead or the head of a lower stay you should be fine. Running backstays aren't hard to deal with and have lots of advantages, especially on the tree trunks many cruisers call masts.

The benefit of an inner stay is to move the center of effort aft.

On Auspicious I have a roller furling headsail. I carry both a 135 and a 100 for the headstay. I have a reefable hank-on staysail on the removable inner forestay. I have running backstays that run to the upper spreaders on a three spreader rig.

When things really kick up I can still point decently with a triple-reefed main and the staysail up.



Minnesail said:


> This summer I sailed on a boat that had one of these:
> ATN Sailing Equipment | The Gale Sail | Easy Handling Storm Jib


I think the Gail Sail is not a good choice. You can't rig it until the headsail is rolled all the way up. That means someone has to go forward to pull the sheets down, secure them, and feed the Gail Sail over the furled headsail. Realistically on most boats that means someone has to haul the sail up there also. Look at the seas in the videos on the ATN site. It just isn't realistic in deteriorating conditions.

A good place to ask this question is Spar Talk.


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## jraymer (Feb 23, 2012)

Faster, I am in the hunt for my next boat so yes, this is all theoretical. I will be soloing offshore and I'm just kicking ideas around. I guess its obvious I'm retired and have too much time on my hands.

Jeff, I kind of liked the solent stay idea because I could make it detachable, but I'm not sure about a storm jib on the head stays. 

Thanks for everybodys input.

Jim.

Auspicious, In my original thread post, I asked about an inner stay and the problems with deck and mast attachments. Maybe for my purposes, heavy weather offshore, I should be looking at a baby stay. Thanks.

Jim.


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## oysterman23 (Jul 22, 2011)

Hey Jim...
I have been thinking about the same issue. I have a storm jib which came with the boat and is virtually unused but is hank on and the PO put on a schaefer snapfurl 500 so foresails on my boat not only need a furling arrangement but must use a #5 luff tape....I do not picture myself doing sail changes via the furling apparatus in heavy weather....so I have been unsure whether to keep the furler and go to a removeable Solent arrangement or what...... Locating the solent back from the forestay has some advantages for usefulness of the storm jib (if you wanted to triple reef main and run the storm for instance) Basically I do not trust my furling to be consistent during wild weather....furlers are nice until they are not and then things happen fast. 
Anyway I will be interested to hear what others have to say on this. I dont see reinforcing the 1/3 of the foredeck on my Morgan very difficult. An improvised aluminum strut would do fine need not be very bulky so long as it spreads load from staypoint to gunnels. Im intrigued with the idea of using dyneema or such rather than stainless if it would be trustworthy....


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

SVAuspicious said:


> I think the Gail Sail is not a good choice. You can't rig it until the headsail is rolled all the way up. That means someone has to go forward to pull the sheets down, secure them, and feed the Gail Sail over the furled headsail. Realistically on most boats that means someone has to haul the sail up there also. Look at the seas in the videos on the ATN site. It just isn't realistic in deteriorating conditions.


Yeah, we just played with it at the dock and it was kind of a pain.

On a different trip this summer I saw the Dahlfin II, a 35' Columbia which is semi-famous around here. The owner had added an inner forestay and twin forestays. Roller furling on the inner and one of the fores.

Would that be a cutter solent rig?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

jraymer said:


> Faster, I am in the hunt for my next boat so yes, this is all theoretical. I will be soloing offshore and I'm just kicking ideas around. I guess its obvious I'm retired and have too much time on my hands.


Sailing single-handed shouldn't be an issue. I do. I don't change headsails under way, but I can roll up the headsail and launch the staysail alone at sea.



jraymer said:


> Auspicious, In my original thread post, I asked about an inner stay and the problems with deck and mast attachments. Maybe for my purposes, heavy weather offshore, I should be looking at a baby stay.


This is boat specific. Landing the inner stay regardless of whether it is a foot abaft the headstay or five feet in front of the mast should start with evaluating the boat structure, particularly structural bulkheads. Don't forget to pay attention to where you're going to put a dinghy on the foredeck.



Minnesail said:


> Yeah, we just played with it {Gail Sail} at the dock and it was kind of a pain.


If it was a pain at the dock consider what it will be like when the bow is lifting and falling eight or ten feet, you have solid water over the deck, and your PFD just inflated. BTDT.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

This is one of the very rare occasions I'm going to disagree with Jeff. When he posts I listen and think carefully about what he says but here I think he is wrong ( until he corrects me(grin)). 
My current boat has the modern interpretation of the solent rig. It's a masthead rig but with hydraulic backstay. It has a removable dyneema inner stay for a hanged on storm jib which is only rigged for passage. Sails are all low stretch Vectran ,on rollers and two weights up from stock.
140- good upwind to ~20-5kts good downwind to ~30kts with a pole. but usually flip to solent at 20kts downwind and 15-20 upwind at night and when short handed.
solent- add another 15-20kts depending on direction to above. Also use it coastal for just about any upwind sailing and only lose 1kt or less in anything over 10kts.
For an all purpose cruising boat the solent rig is the cat's pajama's. Easy to manage, all purpose and covers just about everything with the additional inner fore stay for a storm jib.
Think people forget ( as pointed out by that pipe smoking genius over at Shannon ~30 years ago with his slutters ) as wind picks up and apparent wind moves foresails may be best positioned further forward than thought in the past. My boat gets it's drive mostly from the main. It seems to balance with the combinations available.
Had sloops and true ( mast in middle) cutters in past. Now for anything <50' go with solent. Above that double headed split rig.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> There is a vocabulary issue on this thread.
> 
> A Solent stay has the head very close to the head of the forestay and the tack close to the tack of the headstay. They are perfect for a 135 or 150 genoa on the headstay and a 100 jib on the Solent stay.


I have a Solent sail without a stay..
The sail have a Dyneema luff rope and is furled on a free flying furler.
The halyard is 1:2 Dyneema I can get enough tension to give this sail a decent upwind performance



SVAuspicious said:


> An inner forestay has a head substantially lower and a tack substantially further aft. This configuration is amenable to staysails and/or storm jibs on the inner stay.
> 
> There are also babystays yet closer to the mast that work in some cases for storm jibs.
> 
> Any of the three could be removable. I've never seen a removable babystay as they are usually rigged to keep a slender mast from pumping.


And I have a removable babystay - 
-The mast is so rigid that pumping is not an issue under normal conditions
-It's nice to have the babystay out of the way during a dip pole gybe
-And I have to positions for the babystay, the forward position is used when setting the storm sail



SVAuspicious said:


> If you can get the head of your inner stay (Solent or inner) close to the masthead or the head of a lower stay you should be fine. Running backstays aren't hard to deal with and have lots of advantages, especially on the tree trunks many cruisers call masts.


And I have check stays (don't think they are runners 
Used in heavy weather - with two reefs in the main they can be set without interfering with the main (sail & boom)



SVAuspicious said:


> The benefit of an inner stay is to move the center of effort aft.
> 
> On Auspicious I have a roller furling headsail. I carry both a 135 and a 100 for the headstay. I have a reefable hank-on staysail on the removable inner forestay. I have running backstays that run to the upper spreaders on a three spreader rig.
> 
> ...


Agree 

Here is a good article on the subject Convert Your Sloop to a Double-Headsail Rig | Sail Magazine

Look at the solutions for removable stays in dyneema combined with han on sails, neat combination of new materials and old techniques 

more from the same author
Storm Jibs and Solent Stays | joecoopersailing.com
Short?handed sailing: The Solent Stay | joecoopersailing.com
OFFSHORE | joecoopersailing.com
Short-Handed sailing: Techniques for using different headsails, easily | joecoopersailing.com


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## Joe Cooper (Jun 14, 2013)

*Solent stay issues and overview.*

Ladies and gentlemen,
Re Solent stays:

I will try and summarize as briefly the issues with Solent stays. I have consulted on the installation of perhaps a dozen of them over the past 5-6 years. All work as advertised. One has completed the trip to Plymouth and the return passage in the OSTAR, in '09. Another one has sailed New England to the west coast. Another one has been win place or show in two Halifax races plus other distance races around Newport RI.

Requirements:
1. A stay, I prefer a cordage material, most recently something called by Hall Rigging "Fiber Wire". It is a Maffoli product in Dyneema sk95. Strong stretch resistant and resistant to all the issues one needs it to be resistant to, uv chafe and so on. Big advantage of these kinds of textile products is that you can use regular bronze piston hanks. These are cheaper to buy (with your sail) and easier to put on compared to the "soft hanks". While I was still at Hood Sailmakers as a rep, I chafe tested bronze hanks on Endura braid from NER. We chafed it for 50 hours then pull tested it on a hydraulic system at Rig Pro in Portsmouth RI. The chafed sample AND the control sample both broke at their specified load at the same place, the splice. NOT where it was chafed.

2. Most have installed a Gibb T fitting within a foot or so of the top of the spar. The rest had a fitting and sheave box already in place. An outbound 44 and the Beneteau's and Jeanneaus.

3. On some rather than cutting a new sheave box, I installed a fairlead, offset from the stay attachment and used (a) the second genoa halyard sheave-Baltic 38.

4. On a J 105 I sail/race on DH a lot, we attached the top of the stay to the same fitting as the headstay. This 105 has a Charleston Spars spar NOT the Hall one so the details on the spar and headstay attachment permitted this route.It was simple but has its own issues and so not recommended unless you are prepared to deal with them, not show stoppers but a PIA regardless.

5. You need a halyard and related fairleads, blocks sheaves clutches etc.

6. ON Deck at the stem you need to be sure the location has the strength to deal with this. Usually the deck within 12-18 inches of the stem is pretty robust-A particular advantage of the solent over the inside/cutter stay is there there is likely minimal or no boat building to beef up the area where the stay lands. Obviously too the Solent does not need runners of any kind.

7. Tensioning. I much prefer a 2,3 or 4:1 tackle rather than either fixed, hand crank or furler for the main reason that tacking is really a bear. ( I was once the master of a 20 meter cruising boat with two headstays on hydraulic furlers and we had the same problem. Tacking was as slow as the second coming, so much so that if we were in need of frequent tacks we would use the inside sail...

8. I much prefer also the new aluminium thimbles started by Antal and now copied by every,man and his dog. They are light strong sufficiently slippery and very inexpensive compared to same strength blocks, like 10% of the price of a block

9. With a tackle adjustment one can have the stay pulled aft adjacent the spar with the sail already hanked on. IF it is needed, it is a lot easier to pull the sail forward while it is on the stay rather than getting the wire stay and 20 lb adjuster connected, getting the sail out and hanking it on. Further with the tackle one can adjust the tension on the stay after a few hours when everything has stretched in a bit.
There will also need to be a place to sheet the new sail. This is its own essay but generally speaking with todays cordage and things like Antal thimbles, it is really easy to rig up a place to sheet a solent, which will be regardless of the hardware in the vicinity of outboard the spar.

You are invited to read more on this issue on joecoopersailing dot com. In any event there is a piece by me scheduled to come out in the December, and probably given the length of it, Jan, Feb and maybe March and April editions of WindCheck magazine, a local Long Island Sound magazine.

This series will encompass tips and tricks for making your double handed sailing "better" easier, smoother and generally more fun and less stressful....

Cheers
Joe Cooper


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

My 35' sloop has removable stays that were provided by the builder and seem to be done right. These stays are secured to the mast just below the second spreader via T-ball fittings.

The inner forestay is secured at the deck via a folding padeye as shown here:









The original single padeye was replaced by a rigger to provide separate padeyes for the inner forestay (which is tensioned via a Highfield lever) and the tack of the storm sail. The padeyes are backed by a plate under the deck and connected to the forward bulkhead as shown here:









The running backstays connect via snatch blocks to padeyes in the caprail near the stern pulpit. These backstays are each tensioned via a 4:1 purchase block and tackle with jam cleats.

The T-ball fittings allow a crew to self-install these stays, keeping them out of the way below deck until conditions warrant. Once installed, you could tape the running backstays to the permanent side stays to keep them out of the way until called to duty. We would leave the inner forestay in place, as the 4' slot between the outer an inner forestays was adequate to allow for minimal interference when tacking the genoa.

That said, we have only rigged these stays for an offshore passage of several days when we had a favorable long-range forecast. 99% of the time these stays stay coiled up in my garage. Unless you intend to go in harm's way, it probably isn't worth the investment.


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## Joe Cooper (Jun 14, 2013)

To the fellow with the staysail with the "stay" in the sail so no dedicated stay independent of the sail (still trying to figure out how to get a Quote in a post....better at sailing than forums...) Suggest you inspect that sail's sheave box regularly.

Unless purpose built it is not designed to accept the loads the sail puts on it. Over and above the load from the winch when you tension the halyard the dynamic. Loads from sailing with it esp in any sea way. Yes you will / may see such a set up on for instance open 60's but the spars and fittings are fabricated to the purpose.

May I enquirer as to what class's size off boat?
Cheers
Coop


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

Joe cooper
Wow, I am trying to understand sails and rigging. I am in awe. You make sense to me. TY.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Joe Cooper said:


> To the fellow with the staysail with the "stay" in the sail so no dedicated stay independent of the sail


It's probably my post you are referring to..
Nice to have you here 



Joe Cooper said:


> (still trying to figure out how to get a Quote in a post....better at sailing than forums...)


There is a button below each post with the text "quote" on it.
If you click this button you get a editor window with the original text and a pair of quote / end quote tags 
Start quote looks like this: quote=Joe Cooper;1115578]
end quote looks like this: /quote]
(removed the [ in front of the tag to make it vissible
You may also split the original text into more quoted sections like I have done here by copying the the tag pairs and inserting the tags where needed.



Joe Cooper said:


> Suggest you inspect that sail's sheave box regularly.


As I wrote the halyard is a 1:2 so only 50% of the load go on the sheave.
I use one of the masthead sheaves - the design of this sheave box seems to be up to the task.
Yes I do rig inspections regularly, including pulling the halyards to look for excessive wear.



Joe Cooper said:


> Unless purpose built it is not designed to accept the loads the sail puts on it. Over and above the load from the winch when you tension the halyard the dynamic. Loads from sailing with it esp in any sea way. Yes you will / may see such a set up on for instance open 60's but the spars and fittings are fabricated to the purpose.


Have consulted an experienced rigger before doing these changes.



Joe Cooper said:


> May I enquirer as to what class's size off boat?
> Cheers
> Coop


It's a masthead rigged boat 38 feet, a Benetau First 38.

I can update this thread with more details & pictures


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

Minnesail said:


> This summer I sailed on a boat that had one of these:
> ATN Sailing Equipment | The Gale Sail | Easy Handling Storm Jib
> 
> Basically a storm jib that hanks on around the furler so you don't need an extra stay or have to take down the furler. It was easy to use when we played with it, but that was in almost no wind and tied to the dock. Your mileage may vary in a gale...


I have one of these on a tartan 41. I have used it on Great Lakes in up to 25 knots and it seems to work pretty well. You have to go forward to put it on, but I guess you'd do that with a hank on anyway?


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Mr. Joe Cooper
Aloha,
Reading your web site. You have some good stuff. I like your designs.

I also plan to add either a solent or inner forestay (with runners) to my S&S 34 to be used with a storm jib.

Looks like solent is the way to go.

I mainly plan to use the solent or the inner forestay for the storm jib. I was also thinking the solent or the inner with back stays would be of good use if my main forestay broke, or I broke my back stay (runners may help hold the mast). Any thoughts on this?
Regards


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