# Replacement Diesel Cost?



## Archis (Jan 3, 2007)

I've been trying to find out a ballpark price for replacing a diesel engine on a 30 to 36 footer. Googling hasn't come up with much, so I figured I'd ask here. 

This is a hypothetical pre-purchase question. I would would want a good brand (Yanmar?) and it would be powering a 30 - 40 foot sailboat.

Thanks


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Yanmar is pretty good. Better than Volvo. I had opportunity to choose from both. Yanmar service in Europe seems better than Volvo, I don't know in the US.

Yanmar was made from scratch a marine engine, Volvo is an adaptation of a land engine, and that is an advantage for Yanmar.

However, 3 months after installation an engine block screw broke. Yanmar replaced same day, and appologised. I posted it on this site and folks here said it overtightned at installation. So far no problems.

Had Volvo's before and didn't work for me.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

30 - 40 feet is a wide range that would not be likely to use the same powerplant.

An engine for a typical 30 footer could run $10-15K, with the 40 running $15-20K+ plus whatever costs are associated with adapting the engine to the boat if it's not the same as original. Also it may be necessary to re-prop if the gear ratios differ, which is also likely.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I replaced my 24hp Universal with a 40hp Yanmar several years ago on my S2 11.0A (36 feet). Total cost including removal of the old engine and installation of a new Yanmar with some modification of the engine bed was $12,000.


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## Archis (Jan 3, 2007)

Thanks for the info, that could be a big ouch! 

Does anybody have any advice on how to evaluate the diesels on used boats? Will a good surveyor be able to adequately check the engine over?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Replaced in May 2006*

Our Volvo died last year so we replaced it with a new 30hp Yanmar. I shopped around alot and the best price was about $7,500. The installation was another $7,500. This was due to alot of stringer work to be done in order to mount the new engine. The weight savings was about 100 pounds. So far, the engine has performed flawlessly. We just had our 50 hour maintenance done on her. By the way, we have a 33' yawl that displaces 12,000#. he old Volvo was a 37 hp model some 30 years old. I know how hard it was to get parts for it as I had to have the head gaskets replaced in 2004 and they had to come from Sweden for a pretty penny. Good luck.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Man, shop around! I priced a 55hp Yanmar last year. I e-mailed a dozen authorized dealers in CA. The quoted price, high to low, varied by $1803 for EXACTLY the same product.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Yanmar Group*

I belong to the Yanmar group--one of the groups on Yahoo.com. Lots of discussion about engine options and engine prices for new vs rebuilt, installation, trouble-shooting, etc. I've a 3GMF 20 hp Yanmar in my 32' Bristol, and it runs like a champ. Also I've found good advice from other Yanmar owners, so take a look at the postings there!

bill


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## Archis (Jan 3, 2007)

Other names of diesels that I keep seeing are Westerbeke, Universal and Atomic. Any opinions on these brands?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

"Does anybody have any advice on how to evaluate the diesels on used boats? Will a good surveyor be able to adequately check the engine over?" 

A diesel mechanic is who you are looking for. He can do a compression test, engine oil analysis, and borescope the cylinders (if he has a borescope). Oil pressure will tell you about the bearings. There should be a maintenance log, and a visual inspection will give a clue to the quality of the maintenance. The engine should be clean and without leaks. Look in the bilge area under the engine. 

Others can tell you better than I can, but I believe that Atomic is gasoline, and Universal is a diesel Atomic. I was looking at the Westerbeke website the other day , and I got the impression that Westerbeke distributes the Universal. I like the bore/stroke ratio on the Westerbeke better than the Yanmars; the Westerbeke should have a flatter torque curve. I haven't been able to see the power curves on Yanmar (not on their website), but I did note that they like to exaggerate their horsepower ratings; look at the continuous power rating at 2900 RPM. How they get an additional 10% more horsepower from 100 RPM is a mystery to me. Also note that the displacements for a given configuration (2, 3, or 4 cylinders) are different between the two brands; the strokes are close to being the same, but Yanmar goes to a bigger bore. Yanmar markets to the yachting segment. I have the idea that the government is Westerbeke's major customer, hence the red paint all over everything like an industrial engine. 

IIRC, rules of thumb for engine selection are 1 HP per foot of length, and 2 to 2 1/2 HP per ton of displacement. 

The only diesel engine I have torn into is a 4-71 GMC, so I can only offer impressions about these engines. Hope it's been some help.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

I was going to say 5 to 12 if you can do the install yourself. 12 to 20 turnkey. (thats thousand of course)
pigslo


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Archis said:


> Other names of diesels that I keep seeing are Westerbeke, Universal and Atomic. Any opinions on these brands?


Atomics are gas engines as far as I know. Universals seem to be the quietest motors around - they are based on the Kubota engines. Westerbeke makes a nice 3 cyl engine that may suit you, but local Canadian prices are close to $20K installed.


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## Sialia (Feb 14, 2006)

When I bought my last boat, the yard in which the boat was located (very reputable) and the engine surveyor whom I hired for $250, the selling broker and the previous owner all recommended that I replace the engine. The owner really just went along with the recommendation which was fine with me from a pricing point of view. 

After buying the boat, I ordered 12 oil analysis kits and began sampling the oil for the engine and the transmission. The two first tests said that the engine and transmission were in imminent danger of a breakdown. I called the analysis company, they were very helpful; they made it clear that if the oil and transmission fluid had not been changed regularly before the test, the results would be biased. Additionally, multiple samples needed to be analyzed to determine a trend. 

Long story short, after 6 oil and transmission fluid changes, initially after only 10 hours of use each, and reporting to the analysis company hours between changes, the test results came back normal and the engine and transmission gave me no trouble that I didn't cause myself...that's another story!

Obviously, the previous owner had not cared for the engine. The engine, however, was in great shape after a little TLC.

If the engine starts well and you do not observe power loss or other outward signs of lost compression, it's probably OK. 

Why are you re-powering? If the engine works, keep it. New engines cost a lot, as you have seen.


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## Archis (Jan 3, 2007)

Sialia I'm not re-powering, I'm just trying to get some pre-first boat knowledge. From the replacement cost you guys are talking about, a good diesel motor is high priority for my first boat. 

Thanks again to everyone you're a great resource


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Right you are Sialia! Periodic maintenance is the key to long engine life.

G ... prefer a land based engine over a marine version ... a diesel is a diesel, no? Might be easier to get parts, like a head gasket, for a light truck diesel based powerplant than a marine unit if you're stuck in the back of beyond. Of course if you're a city slicker with money to burn ...

I went with the Westerbeke (Isuzu) instead of the Yanmar, and the only difference I can see is the color and 4 grand in my pocket.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Perkins, Kubota, or Mitsubishi based blocks will have parts the world over since they are tractor, fork lift and taxi cab engines on land.
pigslo


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

cockeyedbob said:


> G ... prefer a land based engine over a marine version ... a diesel is a diesel, no? Might be easier to get parts, like a head gasket, for a light truck diesel based powerplant than a marine unit if you're stuck in the back of beyond. Of course if you're a city slicker with money to burn ....


Sorry but I don't agree with you on this. A diesel is not a diesel. You can't say gas engine is just a gas engine when talking about planes, do you??

I agree that its easier to get parts for land based engines, but you don't have a normal land base diesel on a boat (even Volvo has "marinized" their engine). Some spares might go, but most won't.

I don't know about Westerbeke (Isuzu) engines as we don't have them, but then again I bet you don't have Volkswagen marine and we do. that is why I kept my opinion limited to what I know, Yanmar and Volvo.

We also have NANI, do you have that there??

Now for me, I rather have a marine diesel, designed from scratch for a boat, than a land modified to go on a boat. Where the differences inside are, I have no idea, but I have had my engine all covered with salt water and still no rust. Do that on a regular diesel and see. Besides I have a sail drive, and that changes everything, also. Sorry for not agreeing. Ok?

By the way, what is a city slicker??? I am sure I am not that!! I do not burn money

As for the Yanmar curves, as requested by Jones, Hope they are visible.

From my engine catalog!


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

G ... a diesel IS a diesel ... all operate on the same principal ... marine verses land is nothing more than 6+ weeks to order plus air freight verses local purchase ... 

cockeyed is cheap likes to roll around in his money at night like Scrooge McDuck ...

yeah, got the specs from the dealer ... he had a payment due on his Lexus!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Ask someone who's tried to pull a diesel out of a junked Suburban or truck, marinize it, and install it to run a power boat. Everything looks and runs so good for about a month (except for a disappointing lack of power) then it starts to decline rapidly. IMO going with a marine diesel engine makes sense and is worth the extra investment.


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## chuck711 (Dec 25, 2002)

Yanmars have a pretty good warranty, they stand behind their product.
No anodes needed. Good engineering. Parts are available resonable cost.
No glow plugs and a higher mompression ratio. 390-470 PSI

Westerbekes seem to have a higher ( new )engine failure. 
Lower compression. 312-389 PSI Glow Plugs. 
When you begin working on one, Red Paint Chips Everwhere !!!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"There should be a maintenance log, " Never seen a boat with a maintenance log for the engine--except one owned by an engineer who literally wrote down everything. I'd bet most of us keep no detailed engine logs. (Informal poll?)

Archis, call me prejudiced but I didn't get along with the first Westerbleaks (sic) that I met, and when their rep told me they paint the whole thing after they assemble it--contrary to the advice of Goodyear, Gates, and everyone else who make the rubber parts that are then painted--I decided WB meant Looney Tunes to me. They also are an "assembler" not a "maker", they put out bids and assemble engines from the lowest bidders. Nothing wrong with that per se--but it means their engines will not be *designed* from scratch as integrated units. 

The Universal's have a good rep, even though they are marinizing the Kubota tractor engine, tractor engines in general are built tough.

WRT marinizing *any* engine, or using a land engine in a boat...boats are different. Among other things, a car/truck engine is designed to have massive amounts of air flowing past it, cooling it. That just doesn't happen on a boat, so the heat issues, heat stresses, are different as well as the galvanic/corrosion issues. It certainly can be done, but I'd expect a marine-built engine to be better than what I could roll on my own.

One thing I'd look for: Is the fuel system self-bleeding? Some are, most aren't. Bleeding air out of fuel lines is a PITA that gets smelly diesel all over the engine spaces. Given two engines that were competitive, I'd go for the self-bleeding one all the time.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

JouvertSpirit ... Junk in junk out ... don't believe anyone mentioned a junker engine ... and I believe the Westerbeke (Isuzu) is a marine engine ...

Chuck711 ... roger the chips! Are the engines sprayed or dipped? 

Nonetheless, Isuzu and Yanmar are both highly rated engine manufacturers worldwide. For me, it was a matter of pricing so where's the beef?


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

To clarify the point I was trying to make with Gui regarding land verses marine diesels I respectfully submit the following.

To me, a land diesel is a commercial engine that is intended for land use but has been modified for marine use by a manufacturer. A marine diesel is one that has been designed solely for marine use and has no land component.

In my opinion, replacement parts for a land diesel (pistons, rings, rods, bearings, oil pump, starter, etc) that has been professionally modified for marine use are more likely to be found in remote locals than parts for an engine that was designed solely for marine use.

The Kubota tractor engine could be used as an example. I might find a gasket set readily available in Sumatra just because they have a lot of Kubota powered tractors. I might not be so lucky with a marine Yanmar and could be stuck in port for a long while awaiting parts.

It's not a matter of brand preference but rather one of parts and service availability in one's intended cruising area. If Puget Sound was my intended cruising area, my choice of engine might be different, but for the middle of nowhere, I'd choose the Japanese tractor engine. I build my boats so I have a choice of what I install and decisions regarding equipment are not taken lightly or without considerable research.

Regarding air flow around the engine. Pop the hood of a Chrysler 300M and tell me how does the air flow in there?

Thank you, the readers of this thread, for your patients and understanding. It was not my intent to start an argument but to state a preference and the reasons for that preference. Terminology seems to be the hang up, but try writing in another language sometime and see how well you do.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Cockeyedbob,

You must be on something...you've contradicted yourself 3 times, disagreed with everyone, made remarks about their posts, about dealers, about marine and land diesels, and in the end, said absolutely nothing, agreeing with what other people said.

What exactly is your point and objective in posting?


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

Don't know the pedigree of all those engines or whether they are true marine units.

What I do know is that I was quoted about $7000 for a replacement for my Yanmar 2GM (13 HP) last spring. I priced Yanmar and Beta models. That figure was for the engine alone. Luckily, replacement was not necessary, but based on my labor to remove and reinstall the selfsame unit, re-powering is time-consuming, particularly so if water intakes, shaft bed log, electric and exhaust system revamping were required.

I second the motion for faithful maintenance. A quality diesel engine, given good care can go a long time before overhaul, perhaps 5000 hours. That's a lot of 50 hour summers.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Bob-
"Regarding air flow around the engine. Pop the hood of a Chrysler 300M and tell me how does the air flow in there?" Well...I seem all out of Chrysler's tonight but I can assure you, every car maker studies airflow. There's a fan in the front, in every car and truck, designed to suck air in past the radiator. And, often, intakes under the front bumper, plus a road pan under many engines now, to help ensure linear air flow past the engine block before the air is routed--and it is often routed with plastic covers and baffles--out the rear someplace. Sometimes up the base of the hood, sometimes out the bottom of the engine compartment in the rear (where the road pan doesn't extend) but it is all intentionally routed. Partly for better gas mileage and better grip at highway speeds, but very much for cooling. Remember also that radiator with the forced air flow on it. Granted, marine diesels will be water cooled in some way and water grabs heat 14x faster/better than air. But as you will notice if you try to touch an engine block after you shut it down, there are some damn hot spots on it--even though there is cooling water in it. Airflow over the block is all those spots get for extra cooling, in a car. It's all they are tested and designed for, and there's a long history of engines that are known for little things, like the old Ford 289 engines, great engines in the Mustangs but they'd burn the #2 valve if they overheated even once. Or the Vega 2300cc engines, which shared the technology of Porsche--but overheated if you let the oil OR water get low. And that killed their reputation real fast. They were designed to run at 210F instead of the more typical 170-180F, in order to get higher efficiency. Just a 30F difference--but enough of a change to make things go critical and melt.
In a raw water boat engine, you might be running at 140F so maybe that's an extra tolerance, but go with a closed loop heat exchanger (to me "fresh water" is too confusingly similar to raw water) and you're back to 170 again. then you've got to ask, can anyone relly save money by kitting together bits and pieces, and doing it on a small assembly line, as opposed to a real marine engine with everything designed right (we hope<G>) from the start?

You're certainly right about almost anything being able to do a lot of 50-hour seasons and I suspect that lets a lot of folks get away with hell. There are folks who take the Volkswagon "Pathfinder" air-cooled diesel and use it in boats. It's a workhorse industrial engine, found all over the world. That's certainly one way to go. But of course, air cooled engines are less efficient, even the original Beetle was really lousy at economy once you figured out how little weight it was pushing around. Still...if the engine is cheap enough, you can afford plenty more fuel. You just have to hope EVERYTHING is done right, for the saltwater location with no airflow.
Which is also why many diesels have engine room blowers--to cool down the engine room after the engine is shut down. That's when oil is no longer flowing, coolant no longer flowing, and the oil sitting still on hot parts cokes up and turns to tar in the engine.
Then again there's resale value. Assuming you might sell the boat one day...having a known brand engine in it will increase the value. Having a DIY special in it...the next buyer may just take off $10,000 figuring he has to replace it.
Lotsa stuff works, and works "well enough". Sometimes saving $5000 is what counts, well enough.<G>


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Giu -- Thanks for the data.

Looks like my suspicions were correct; the torque curve for the Westerbeke is flat, and that for the Yanmar drops way more than I would have suspected. Compression for the Westerbeke is 22:1; I don't see a spec for the Yanmar (cranking pressures are influenced by RPM and camshaft overlap, although I don't believe overlap would play significantly for low-RPM engines, but I'm guessing there.) If the Yanmar's have higher cranking speeds and higher compression, it may explain their not utilizing glow plugs.

Automotive diesels are lightweight for various reasons, but are utilized as variable-speed engines. _Real_ (industrial) diesels are designed for constant speed operation and are not hampered by their mass. Neither the Yanmar's nor Westerbeke's can be called lightweight, but the Westerbeke's are heavier for their displacement. Looking at the spec's, by numbers of cylinders the engines are of comparable weight.

On paper, I'd take the Westerbeke. Don't know anything about the failure rates. But then I might be the guy who, having a crate engine, would disassemble and hot tank the head and block; then powder-coat, along with the rocker cover and oil pan (no paint chips). Check all dimensions and clearances. Balance the rotating assembly, align-hone the main saddles (makes them straight), do a _real_ valve job, and re-assemble. That way you know you have an engine that will carry you for 15,000 hours, if you change oil and keep the fuel clean. In my opinion, anyone going way offshore should consider doing the same.

Wonder why Westerbeke has a significant rate of infant failure?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Wonder why Westerbeke has a significant rate of infant failure?"
Part of contracting to buy engine blocks from the cheapest bidder? Who knows *their* name won't be on it?
Might pay to find out who actually builds the block you're looking at and see how that engine does under it's own name. WB has used British Leyland, Mitsu (?IIRC), and other sources with varying reps.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Sorry to disagree with you G. but most marine engines are based on "land" diesels that have been marinized. The real difference is how well the marinization has been done. A perkins 4.108 is a Perkins engine marinized by Perkins. A Westerbeke 4.108 is a Perkins that has been marinized by Westerbeke. Westerbeke buys long blocks (a long block is a block that includes a head and valve train) from many companies but I don't think they make a block themselves. I like the specs on the Mitsubishi and Kubota blocks and those are found marinized by Vetus, Beta, and I believe Universal. Let's get our engine guy to weigh in.
pigslo


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

I got yer marine diesel right here! Bukh, baby. DV 20 in my Bristol 32.
21.5:1 compression ratio. That's over 680psi compression pressure yielding over 920psi combustion pressure. Fully balanced and silky smooth. The latest version of this engine is the DV 24 ME which uses direct injection (and revs to 3600rpm) over the DV 20's pre-combustion chambers and 3,000rpm redline.
http://www.bukh.co.uk/bukhhome.htm
And on the automotive diesels needing massive airflow for cooling? Get real. Do you see any cooling fins on those water-cooled engines? Massive airflow doesn't happen on bulldozers either, don't see them having problems. The only airflow issue water-cooled engines have involves the radiator fan. The airflow cools the water in the radiator, which is used to cool the head (s) and block. Oil also helps cool the engine, but the water isn't used to cool the oil (directly).


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

hellosailor said:


> ...There are folks who take the Volkswagon "Pathfinder" air-cooled diesel and use it in boats. It's a workhorse industrial engine, found all over the world. That's certainly one way to go. But of course, air cooled engines are less efficient,


As far as I know the only air cooled diesel you're likely to find is a "Petter" - and it's a noisy clunker of a thing.

Pathfinder engines are based on the long proven VW Rabbit diesel, FWC 4 cyl and 40 - 50 hp depending on the year and displacement. More recent versions are available turboed and based on the larger engines found today in the TDI Jettas.

The marinization parts include recognized suppliers like Jabsco (FWC pumps), Bowman (manifolds/heat exchangers) The gears are Hurth.

Though for some reason out of favour in the US, there is nothing wrong with these engines as a marine powerplant. The Aluminum head lightens the package, 4 cyl makes for smooth running and while not the quietest engine available it certainly is reliable.

Parts availability for the basic engine is universal, and prices are well below "marine" levels. A friend had to replace a cyl head on a Bukh one lunger in his Laser 28 a few years back and was out of pocket $3400 before it was done. We had a timing belt fail on the Pathfinder, and had the 4 cyl head repaired and everything back together for $1100.

4 years ago we were quoted a replacement package for our tired Pathfinder (then 25 yrs old) at $11,000 for a 60 hp version with reconditioned gear. I reckon a similar sized Yanmar would run double that. In the end we rebuilt it with genuine VW parts for around $1500.

There is only one representative for "Pathfinder" to whom you must go to for the marinization parts, but they are very helpful and knowledgeable. These days, overnighting Fedex parts anywhere in NA means your parts are a phone call and one day away.

Being very familiar with this engine, I was pleased to find another boat with the same setup.


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

Where would one buy a Pathfinder?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

It should probably be stated that air does not cool the engine in an air cooled engine-it cools the oil. Oil does the vast majority of cooling in all engines. The water passages through the engine cool the oil and also distribute the heat throughout the block in an even fashion. An engine oil to raw water heat exchanger will do far more to cool an engine than any amount of air passing through the engine room.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Sailaway, I'd agree with you in principal but disagree in the wording. Oil cools the _cylinder walls_ and the incredibly hot cylinders. Then, as you say, water (if there is any) cools the oil and since all of those are part of "the engine"...it comes back to air cools the engine, as a whole. The oil, the water, the cylinders, all are part of "the engine" that needs to be cooled.

And in a boat that air is all the more important because the oil in a car/truck goes down to the oil pan which is being cooled by all that wonderful air rushing by, which just isn't there in a boat. Making oil breakdown a bigger issue in boats, I suppose.


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

What air cooled engine are we talking about? Does it have a radiator?

I thought most marine engines were liquid cooled and that the rejected heat went directly from the engine jackets overboard with the raw water, or indirectly through the heat exchanger and then overboard (also with the raw water).


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I did a quick google on "Air cooled Diesels" and got hits that were pretty well entirely small gen-set sized engines up to about 400cc.

The only auxillary sized air cooled diesel I've heard of was the German built Petter. 

GoodNews you are correct in your assumption that most marine engines are either raw water cooled with direct intake, salt/raw water in jackets most often injected into the exhaust system to keep it cool and keep noise levels down.

Otherwise they are freshwater cooled, with the raw water cooling the heat exchanger for the closed-circuit coolant system, then again being injected into the exhaust at the mixing elbow as above.

Many fishboats, tugs etc have dry exhausts and the raw water exits through an above-waterline throughhull.

I once saw a long-running homebuilt project, a steel 65' Roberts, that had installed a Ford tractor diesel with a conventional fan & radiator mounted in the engine "room". The boat travelled a total of 5 NM after launching and served as a static liveaboard for a year or so before it had a catastrophic fire on board. It spread rapidly due to the use of flammable insulating foam on the inner hull. Given the inadvisability of that decision, and the short life span it's not clear that that particular cooling system would have been successful. My gut feeling is it would not have worked long term.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Really you are both right. Some of the heat is given up from the oil in the heat exchanger as the oil runs through it and some is given up in the water jacket as that water runs through the heat exchanger. Nevertheless it is all released overboard in the exhaust water.
pigslo


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Don't write off the whole idea of learning about engines and doing it yourself. I really like engines and I think knowing about them can give you a lot of peace of mind. I don't have experience with marine diesels, but I am looking forward to learning more about them, most of my experience is with gasoline engines. I find it comforting to know about them. Inside that big metal thing is cylinders and pistons beating up and down, turning the crank, little explosions happening repeatedly. I mean just thinking about it all happening and seeing it happen you start to understand the essence of it, to keep those cylinders well oiled so the pistons don't build up friction while they are doing their work, to keep the timing right so that they fire at the right time, keep the crank oiled so it doesn't get worn down by the rods and break, etc. When you learn about engines and work on them yourself and understand what all the parts are doing then all those superstitions like "maintenance log" and "be sure it's clean on the outside before you buy the boat" and all that goes out the window, because engines have parts, and each of those parts does something, and you can get in there and get to know the thing and make friends with it. It's not just some formless voodoo, it is a real thing that can be understood and fixed when it breaks. You have to know not to let water get into the cylinders, then imagine all the ways that can happen, and make sure it doesn't happen, insure that the oil doesn't get contaminated, that you give it clean fuel and how to keep the filters clean, and a lot of other things. Understand what temperature it likes and how to keep it running at that temperature, how to keep it's air clean, etc. I think on a boat especially it's not a matter of if you'll have to learn about an engine, but when ... because eventually you're going to get stuck somewhere far away and have to deal with it, and it's easier to deal with it all along than to suddenly have to figure it out without the aid of tools and people to ask questions to.

Or some people just throw money at it ...

I had a problem with my first boat motor and didn't know much about them, an outboard. I told various people about the problems I had with it as I went along, and the solutions I had found, fixes I had done, etc, it was an older engine and needed a little TLC to get it going and purring along. I was amazed at the huge number of people who just wrote the thing off without any idea what was even wrong with it, it was incredible ... I mean anything, even if all I told them was that I had to replace a coil, a trivial thing, they were like .. well, you better replace it, you have to have a reliable engine on a boat ... like that you couldn't just replace the coil and actually have the thing work after that or something. Of course after I did a little TLC on it the thing worked like a champ after that and I never again had problems with it. Wouldn't have mattered if I did, while working on it I made lists of things that I could easily replace while underway and bought some of them as spares, so I could have fixed a lot of things that went wrong with it, especially with the ignition. Most of the things I didn't have spares for I knew how to fix and just needed the parts. To me that is more reliable than a new engine, knowing how to fix the thing if it breaks and having the tools and parts needed to do it.

EDIT ... oh, and I should add, I'm no great wiz with it, but I know enough to get myself out of a lot of jams, and it wasn't hard to learn.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

wind_magic: 
I appreciate your post, but if I were to show that to a full-time tugboat diesel mechanic there would be a smile induced reaction.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Archis said:


> Other names of diesels that I keep seeing are Westerbeke, Universal and Atomic. Any opinions on these brands?


I have a Westerbeke W-52 from the '80s with low hours. It looks like a Perkins to me in layout and seems (so far) quite dependable. I will likely give it a top rebuild, a repaint and a hose renewal before we leave in '09 to circumnavigate because its usage pattern (six months of winter storage, stop and start use) has been unfriendly to the diesel. I think Westerbeke's fairly dependable, but not light or super-modern. I like the Beta diesel in the 20 HP range. They are the diesel upgrade of choice for Atomic 4 repowerers.

I have a rebuilt Atomic 4 in my older boat that is very reliable and quiet, if not exceedingly cheap on fuel (but it's a sailboat, right?). I have a completely rebuilt *second* Atomic 4 under wraps in my garage. At about $1,200 per rebuild (I have quite a number of spare A4 parts), it would be stupid to drop a new $10K diesel into an at-best $20K sailboat from the early '70s. An outboard would spoil her looks...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Radiators will work fine until they crack or you throw the fan belt. They will have the same problem as air-cooled: you have to get the heat out of the engine room.


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## Archis (Jan 3, 2007)

Ferryman is another name I came across in a listing. Does anybody knwo anything about this diesel?


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

For Farymann, see:
http://www.farymann.de/frames_englisch.htm


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

This has became a weird thread.

What do you want out of your engine, puddle jump, or day sailing??? Get a NY cab engine and be happy. No money??? get a ford engine, and be happy. Like to play with engine get a m60 tank engine, and be happy. Want ot become a sea vagabond??? get achevy engine and be happy. Like flowers???? get a VW engine and be happy.

Me, (and I believe those that sail a lot will do the same), no thanks, I want the best MARINE there is, even if it is expensive. I get the marine, backed up by marine company, installed by marine people, that stand by their MARINE engine, with marine parts on it. Period.

I have already enough stuff breaking on the boat to keep me busy. Don't need the engine aggravation.

And at the end of the day, I know I can I go with my family to sea and know I have a decent marine engine. If it breaks, I call the Marine people. They know boats and how engines are inside a boat. I am willing to pay for that.
What is that compared to ease of mind as far the engine is concerned??


If I can't get the parts in BONGA BONGA, I wait, but will get them.

By the way, Yanmar has agents even in Bonga Bonga.

Now, in Spurry Spurry, yes maybe hard to get the parts, so....I don't even go there!!!!


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## Archis (Jan 3, 2007)

Giulietta I agree, this thread is a little off tangent. I started it trying to find which engines I should or should not avoid in an upcoming used boat purchase. Pretty simple


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

JouvertSpirit said:


> wind_magic:
> I appreciate your post, but if I were to show that to a full-time tugboat diesel mechanic there would be a smile induced reaction.


Why Jouvert, because a tug boat engine is so huge ? Or are you referring to the fact I was talking about ignition and things on a gasoline engine, and parts that don't exist on a diesel ?


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

My list:

Yanmar - quality, top grade literature (Possibly best service manual I have ever seen.), and parts support (I can get most parts for my 24 year old engine overnight.)

Westerbeke, Beta, Bukh - They use pretty decent base engines and have decent parts support. Don't have experience with their literature. Plus for Kubota based engines like Beta is the availability of many parts at Kubota tractor dealers.

Volvo - Expensive, rare parts.


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## Archis (Jan 3, 2007)

Goodnewsboy which engines are Kubota based?

I'm real comfortable with anything Yanmar or Kubota, but that's just from tractor experience.


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

I can't say that I know all of them. The engine builders are not always anxious to share. As a prospective buyer, you are in the best position to ask.

Kubota markets their own marine engine in Canada (and maybe other places)
http://www.frontierpower.com/kubota/kubmarineprop.htm

Last I knew, Beta claims that all their engines are Kubota based.

Westerbeke builds both Westerbeke and Universal engines. I understand these are built on a variety of base engines, and that may include some Kubota. Their Universal line includes engines specifically configured to dimensionally replace the Atomic Four. http://www.westerbeke.com/products/diesel_engine_detail.cfm?eng=18

I think that any of these engines can give you good service. You want to choose one that is out there in good numbers (OEMs usually don't like to walk away from aftermarket support of a large "fleet" of installed product.) and has a good reputation. Parts support and service literature are big factors for me because I like to do a lot of the maintenance work myself. (It's good practice for the day when there is no other choice.)


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## Archis (Jan 3, 2007)

Is an Atomic Four something to be concerned about? A lot of boats still have those.


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## egood (Apr 12, 2003)

*yanmar*

We replaced an old Volvo (MDIIB) with a Yanmar (20 hp). Cost for engine and install (new shaft, prop, etc) $12,250. We took the old engine out and cleaned things up a bit. It was worth every cent.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Giuletta-
"By the way, Yanmar has agents even in Bonga Bonga." Funny, here in the US we used to say something similar about LandRover. If you had a LandRover and it broke down in the deepest bush in the heart of Africa, you could be sure of getting spares in only seven days. The same seen days it would take you to get those same spares anyplace else in the world, because NO ONE stocked them.<G>
I'm not sure what LandRover or British Leyland are these days...Fords? Krauts? It's getting hard to keep count.

Archis-
The Atomic4 is a very low compression industrial service gasoline engine. Given proper care, or minimal abuse, they will run forever. For coastal sailing I wouldn't worry about them, I'd say the only real weakness is that you need to carry 2 gallons of gasoline to get the same mileage as one gallon of diesel, so if you're globe-hopping and need to carry 100 gallons of diesel...you'd need 200 gallons of gasoline, putting you about 780 pounds and several cubic feet deeper in fuel storage.<G> Not an issue for sailors running around North America where ports and gas are readily available. Gasoline and diesel engines both have their good and bad points, what's more important is "How well does this one behave?"


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

What's a Krauts?? never seen that car. Have a photo??

By the way Land Rover is now owned by Ford, as is Jaguar. But Ford keeps their finger out.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> I'd say the only real weakness is that you need to carry 2 gallons of gasoline to get the same mileage as one gallon of diesel, so if you're globe-hopping and need to carry 100 gallons of diesel...you'd need 200 gallons of gasoline, putting you about 780 pounds and several cubic feet deeper in fuel storage.<G>


200 gallons of gasoline + one spark = BOOM!


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

wind_magic...

I understand your concern. really I do. But there are over 40,000 a-4's installed in all kinds of boats. Now, what I'd like for you to do is take a gander, search around, and rather than prattle off what "could happen"...
please let us know where and when any of these "booms" took place. 

I'm not talking about the guy re-fueling his sea-ray from a 5 gallon can while lighting a lucky strike, I'd like to see results from a a-4 spark blamed fire.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

cardiacpaul said:


> wind_magic...
> 
> I understand your concern. really I do. But there are over 40,000 a-4's installed in all kinds of boats. Now, what I'd like for you to do is take a gander, search around, and rather than prattle off what "could happen"...
> please let us know where and when any of these "booms" took place.
> ...


I'm really not trying to start any arguments, honest. 

I wouldn't know where to find anything at all about a-4's or anything like that, so you are absolutely right I cannot provide any such references. And as a relatively inexperienced sailor I would not even be able to argue the point, I'm very confident that others on this board know much more about it than I do.

But, regardless of how safe they are, and I'll take your word for it that they are and that there is not a concern ... I wouldn't want that much gasoline on my sailboat, I'd want a diesel. Maybe I am just paranoid, after this and the thread about backup stays, I'm trying to face up to the fact I might just be more cautious than most folks! Even too cautious, I accept that. When using an outboard I'm the kind of person who only fills fuel containers off the boat on the pier so that fumes don't get into the bilge, and I never store gasoline containers below deck. The sole exception is that I do have a small honda generator that I keep below deck because, well, the risk in my mind is just over-ruled by the fact I don't want my generator to get corroded, it's a chance I'm willing to take. All I know is gasoline fumes are heavier than air, and I can certainly provide plenty of web references showing gasoline fumes in the bilge of a boat being responsible for plenty of explosions. Mostly because people don't ventilate properly after they fill their tanks.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Windmagic, "boom" is by definition a very good thing for a combustion engine. No boom? No go. As for things going boom at the wrong time or in the wrong place...never had that problem. The stink of diesel and the fun of clogged filters and bleeding fuel lines has been, in my experience, an equal trade-off for any problem gasoline engines can have. Except the difference in fuel density, for long distance cruisers.

Giuletta-
"Kraut" is the politically incorrect derogatory term for "German". I'm sure there are a long line of deceased English monarchs rolling in their graves to find that their dear German cousins (as they indeed were until WW1) now own the rights to a number of fine British marques, including Rolls Royce. 
The RR aviation line, jet engines, etc., are still British, the cars are now German owned.

I have mixed feelings about German engineering. Precise, yes. Efficient, yes. Great in the lab, yes. But the first time I got asked to help a neighbor bring her Audi home...my opinions on German Engineering soured. Great in the lab, but too high-strung to be used in the real world. Like using a race horse to plow a field, it just isn't going to work. I prefer a system that is more robust, even if that means cruder, with fewer clever interdependent parts, and requiring fewer special tools. (The Audi broke down because the alternator failed. On any other car, it could have been driven home on battery alone. But Audi got clever and used the alternator "tachometer" output to drive the fuel injection pump, so no alternator meant no fuel pump output, no fuel, no engine. And on that car, you needed a special large allen key to even remove the alternator, a part that no US mechanic would have had at that time, unless he was a German Car Mechanic. On a US or Japanese car, multiple wrenches could all do the job, or even a pair or pliers. And, I suspect, only a German Engineer would fail to ask "Yeah, but what if the alternator breaks, won't this make the whole car fragile?"<G>)

Of course, anything--even german engineering--beats "Lucas, The Prince of Darkness" as in the British electrical systems.<G> Still doesn't seem right that Hitler's good buddies should own the Rolls Royce marque.


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

Now we are into gas vs. diesel. This thread could go on forever!

I vote with cardiacpaul.

Good engines, clean and well maintained are good things. Atomic fours have been around in large numbers for many years.

If it serves its master well, who cares what the fuel is?


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

the only time (for me) that it would matter is if I'm going to be offshore and out of the good old USA. Diesel is much more available in other parts of the world. (notice I dodn't speak of quality of the diesel. I've been in a port where the guy hand pumped it from a 55 gal barrel with a chicken and a cat on top of it to a 5 gallon can, then into the boat)

I understand the concerns about fumes in the bilge, but form being on the water too many decades to count and mucking about with both gas and diesels for just about as long. I wouldn't devalue a boat based on one or the other. 

(ok, it you've got a 35 footer & up) with a gas engine, I'd wonder a bit) its all about suitability.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

For us, with a liter of gasoline costing 1.3 Euros, its absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to have gas engines !!!

Good luck comming to Europe with a gas engine!!! Unless you are Donald Trump. Then its OK!!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Giuletta-
"For us, with a liter of gasoline costing 1.3 Euros, its absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to have gas engines !!!"
Ah, but that is politics not economics. The price of gasoline in most of the EU is nearly twice the real cost of the fuel. Most of your countries impose a 100% surcharge on gasoline, in order to fund public transportation systems, like the French railroads. Throw out your politicians, get rid of the taxes, and you too can have "cheap" gasoline. And, no good railroads, just like the US.
Or declare war on Venezuela, surrender to them, and the good [sic] Mister Chavez will let you sell gasoline for nine cents per gallon while he finds other ways to run your life.

Same problem everywhere, isn't it?

But the price of gasoline in Europe...I no longer listen to the complaints, that price has been "your" choice, whether you are aware of it or not.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Scrap the engine and put a squirell, solar, wind, hydrogen/methane hybrid in. I am working on the design now. Iwill post soon.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Ohhh, I cannot tell you why I just wasted 30 minutes of my life reading through this thread, but it was quite entertaining. I guess I should add "who makes the best engine" to my other two favorite questions, like:

1) What is the best anchor?

2) Should I crimp or solder?

- CD

God love you guys... you crack me up.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Ah, CD, you know that only hacks solder and crimp. Real electricians only use fusion welding to join metal parts. And, if they've done the proper job of spinning, casting, or growing the metalwork in the first place--it's all in one piece, no joinery needed.<G>


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> Giuletta-
> 
> Most of your countries impose a 100% surcharge on gasoline, in order to fund public transportation systems, like the French railroads.
> 
> ...


This is politics, and this is as far as I go. I will not let politics tarnish the white of my sails!!!

S/V, S/Y, S/B, S/GLB, S/SFB Giulietta
Signing out!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

"I am not an engineer, but I played one on T.V."

"Scrap the engine and put a squirrel, solar, wind, hydrogen/methane hybrid in. I am working on the design now. I will post soon."

Were you _Mr. Wizard_?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Jones....He drove the train on Petticoat Junction! <grin>


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

"Lot's of curves, you bet, even more, when you get...to The Junction". Perhaps I should suggest a good old steam engine.

I did a cursory Google search on the words: _boat explosions_, and there were countless news accounts of gasoline power boats exploding (at the fuel dock mostly). Like everyone didn't already know that.

My boat (33' Pearson) is dry docking next week to replace the old Farymann with a new Yanmar, BTW.

Fun thread. Little bit of everything -boom-politics- and even some P-Correct corrections.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Was it just me or did anyone else notice that those three girls on "Petticoat Junction" were swimming in the towns water supply. And how did the know Jed and Granny when they were from opposite ends of the country.
pigslo


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Pigs,

Sam Drucker knew the Clampetts, and the Cannonball ran between Hooterville and Petticoat Junction, I guess. And the gals were just doing their laundry in the water tower,  . Google-earth was not in operation then or we would know the "_rest of the story_".


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

pigslo-
"swimming in the towns water supply." Was it ever made clear if that was the drinking water tank--or the water tank for the steam engines? RR stops for steam engines almost always had water tanks, to fill the steam tanks in a hurry. Then usually a slow windmill or other cheap pump to refill the tank at leisure for the next train.

Jouvert-
It is not that the gasoline explodes, but that sailors often pay off the fuel jockey to blow up those noisy powerboats. Conveniently, blowing them up at the fuel dock provides a perfect cover story. After all, those boat owners will all tell you *they* didn't blow up their own boats...but no one listens to them.<G>


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Way off the diesel topic*

For those who were too young to actually see it first hand, here's a link to a clip:




duration 1 minute and 48 seconds.

Notice the petticoats on the water tower at the end.

Ok, I'm done.


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