# Contract and 10% deposit required before survey allowed? Is this typical?



## patrickstickler (Dec 2, 2008)

I'm interested in a boat which is too far away to look at without being nearly decided on purchasing it, but the broker says that before a survey would be permitted, I must have a signed contract with a 10% deposit.

That seems pretty unreasonable to me, and makes me wonder, is this the way things are normally done, or is this a warning that the broker is less than reputable (or simply doesn't want to dick about with this poor man's yacht as he has alot more expensive boats to manage).

???


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Pretty normal in my experience. The deposit should be held in escrow, pending sale and is refundable if you decline to purchase based on the survey.


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## nereussailor (Nov 3, 2007)

*Survey*

If you put down a deposit, be prepared to loose it if you decide not to buy. You could try to make it a refundable deposit if the survey is really bad, but he probably won't go for it. He wants to make the sale.
I would think that the broker would be more than willing to let you pay for a survey, which would remain your property. (You could sell it to another prospective buyer) It's money out of your pocket, not his or the owners. Now if he is paying for the survey, then I can understand the deposit, but it still sounds unreasonable. 
This is how I would go about it if you are really interested in the boat. Tell the broker that you will put down the deposit before the survey as long as all of the items that are flagged in the survey are repaired at the owners expense. Make sure that you get this in writing. If he says no way, then walk away. There are tons of boats out there for sale. find a broker or individual that is willing to be reasonable.

Dave


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

nereussailor said:


> This is how I would go about it if you are really interested in the boat. Tell the broker that you will put down the deposit before the survey as long as all of the items that are flagged in the survey are repaired at the owners expense. Make sure that you get this in writing. If he says no way, then walk away. There are tons of boats out there for sale. find a broker or individual that is willing to be reasonable.
> 
> Dave


I think this stipulation would be a deal-killer to anyone because it is so one-sided allowing the prospective purchaser to make frivolous demands.

What your broker told you is standard practice - put down a deposit and stipulate in the agreement that the deposit shall be returned if the survey i9s not to your satisfaction.

Look at it this way -if you pay for surveying a boat without any contractual agreement, the seller can and may sell the boat to someone else after you just paid to have it surveyed. Why would you take that chance?


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## Paul_L (Sep 16, 2004)

Pretty normal, Why would the owner allow you to haul his boat for a survey, have someone crawl all over it and empty all the lockers, without even a contract and deposit? The contract will allow you to get out if the survey shows items that are unacceptable to you.

Buying long distance can be a pain.

Paul L


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

What we did was contact a surveyor (not the one recommended by the broker)in the area and had him swing by and just take a look at the boat and give us general impressions (he didn't charge us for it, but we had him do a survey and sea trial later). Based on his observations we made an offer that was accepted and sent a 5% deposit to be held in escrow. I can't say that when I saw the boat I agreed with the surveyor that it was in good shape, but it was something anyway. You might also ask the broker if he could send an extensive set of pics, that might be enough to help you decide if you are seriously interested. Make sure the contract has contingencies that allow you to back out and get your deposit back. Good luck.


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## sailjunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

PBzeer said:


> Pretty normal in my experience. The deposit should be held in escrow, pending sale and is refundable if you decline to purchase based on the survey.


This also holds true in our neck of the woods.

I would also like to politely disagree with one of the other posters who suggested that you should be prepared to lose your deposit if the sale doesn't go ahead. This was not so in my past experience as a broker; and more recent experience as a boat buyer. In BC, the deposit is fully refundable if the buyer's decision is based on the survey results.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*Agreed. You should be able to get the deposit back if you simply do not...*



sailjunkie said:


> This also holds true in our neck of the woods.
> 
> I would also like to politely disagree with one of the other posters who suggested that you should be prepared to lose your deposit if the sale doesn't go ahead. This was not so in my past experience as a broker; and more recent experience as a boat buyer. In BC, the deposit is fully refundable if the buyer's decision is based on the survey results.


... like the way the boat sails, which is very important, personal, and impossible to know with certainty until the boat is sailed. Make certain the terms for rejection of the survey and sea trial are broad. By the same token, be realistic in the case of an older boat. There are conditions and wear that are normal for a certain age.

The purpose of the deposit is to chase out the time-wasters. You will be out the cost of the survey and a haul, which is enough.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Most Brokered boats contracts are the same, and they even have a place to stipulate full refund of deposit for whatever reason you hand wright in there....Normally on buyers satisfaction of surveys and sea trial....this leaves the door wide open for you.

If this is a US broker he could loose his licence for reneging on that...Its about as safe a deal as one can get in the business world... A large broker wont even deposit your check but hold it onsite in a safe.

No Worries mate its a normal deal.

I have said here before many times...Im not interested in dealing with buyers not willing to pony up a deposit for a serious look at my boat.


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## KindOfBlue (Nov 22, 2005)

I think that they just want to make sure that you are a serious buyer for this specific boat before the surveyor takes her for a sea trial, haul, pulls everything apart, etc.. 

Call again, this deposit should be refundable. Unfortunately cost of the survey isn't. As someone mentioned, you can get a local surveyor to do a walk through and provide you with a brief report. I am sure this won't require a deposit and may cost you about $100.

I just wish that there was a way to have all sellers purchase a non-biased survey from in independent organization of highly qualified boat surveyors with lots to loose if they don't disclose everything they find. I guess boat surveyors wouldn't like this model much, but as buyers it would be great. There are probably many reasons why this wouldn't work, but as a buyer I would really like to see a survey before making an offer.


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## patrickstickler (Dec 2, 2008)

Thanks to everyone for replying. I had understood the deposit to be non-refundable, which seemed unreasonable.

I'm waiting to recieve the contract and will make sure the deposit is 100% refundable before moving forward.

Thanks again,

Patrick


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## sailjunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

An offer to purchase should have at least 3 subjects:


Hull survey, to buyer's satisfaction.

Mechanical inspection, to buyer's satisfaction.

Sea trial, to buyer's satisfaction.
Note the common theme?

You can add additional subjects, depending on individual circumstances. However, if the list gets too long or complex, the vendor may wonder if the buyer is serious; or may accept an offer with fewer subjects.


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## josrulz (Oct 15, 2006)

Yep, in our experience, we provided a 10% deposit, which was refundable if we did not go through with the purchase. Reasons for not going through with the purchase were expressed in our offer, which was contingent upon survey and sea trial, with the option to do an engine survey. It can also be contingent on financing, if applicable. If any of the above were not satisfactory to us, the buyer, we could walk and get our 10% deposit back. The deposit was intended to show good faith and intent to purchase. It was not a non-refundable use it or lose it sort of thing.

We actually did walk away from a purchase due to survey results. We received our deposit back.

-J


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

sailjunkie said:


> An offer to purchase should have at least 3 subjects:
> 
> 
> Hull survey, to buyer's satisfaction.
> ...


You may want to consider a rigging survey as well (also to buyer's satisfaction.)

Results of the survey(s) should become negotiating points on the final price.

If it were me, I'd rather have the seller come down in price than for the seller to agree to fix the items before transfer. You can either do the work yourself or commission it out yourself, so you will know to what standard the repairs were made.


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## gr8trn (Dec 10, 2008)

PorFin said:


> You may want to consider a rigging survey as well (also to buyer's satisfaction.)
> 
> Results of the survey(s) should become negotiating points on the final price.
> 
> If it were me, I'd rather have the seller come down in price than for the seller to agree to fix the items before transfer. You can either do the work yourself or commission it out yourself, so you will know to what standard the repairs were made.


Is the rigging not part of a sail boat survey? Like most have said, sea trial, survey and that should cover the bases in 99% of the deals.

Deposit is called earnest money. It signals that your intentions are earnest. No more no less. Do be sure it is 100% refundable within a reasonable (10 business days) amount of time.

Good Luck,
Greg


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## DWT1 (Dec 16, 2006)

I also had the engine oil sent off for internal wear of the engines.

So I had buying the boat subject to:

Survey and that included rigging
Financing
Engines

I did not buy the boat and with no hassles got my deposit back.

I like the idea of just having a surveyor go by, take some pictures and do a walk thru. If this could be done for 1 or 200 dollars that would be great if the boat is not near by.

David 
69 Margan 30'
CarolAnn


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

gr8trn said:


> Is the rigging not part of a sail boat survey?


It really depends on the surveyor. Maybe I'm a little limited in my frame of reference, but most hull surveyors I've researched will only survey the rig from deck level (but there are exceptions, of course.)

It may be prudent to get a separate look by a guy who does rigging everyday.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Okay on deposit, but don't do that until the deal is in place.

What I mean by that is that you don't want to just put a deposit on a boat you're not even really sure you want to buy, and brokers seem to push people into this sometimes, like you have to put a deposit down to even negotiate with the seller. Don't do that - pass the contract back and forth without any signatures and get the horse trading out of the way *first*, make sure you like every single thing about the contract before you put a deposit down and sign it. There is no use in putting down a deposit on a boat unless you've decided to buy it, and the negotiations leading up to that point can break a lot of deals.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

If you are dealing with a professional broker int he US, here's the form they should use:
http://www.integrityyachtsales.com/images/Blank_Sales_Agreement.pdf

You can annote it for special concerns, do a search there are a number of threads about this subject.

The contract and deposit is more to protect you, the buyer. Once you have paid for the survey, you have more money in the game than the seller, you don't want the seller able to re-open the terms of the sale.

If you are not happy with the deal after the survey, give proper notice and you can simply walk away, and get your deposit back. Not so after the sea trial, and don't expect to go sailing while on the sea trial, unless the owner chooses come along for a sail...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

What is "usual" may vary with where you are looking. Finland and the US often do things differently.

If I were a broker, I would not want the expense (time and risk of damage) of having a customer's boat hauled for survey, without some compensation for that--at least, a binding offer and contract in hand.

Does that put you at a disadvantage? Perhaps. Looking at boats long-distance can be a problem for all parties in a number of ways.


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## TheMadchef (Feb 16, 2010)

10% a survey is going to be 20 to 30 dollars. From either side it seems pretty petty.


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## nickmerc (Nov 2, 2008)

TheMadchef said:


> 10% a survey is going to be 20 to 30 dollars. From either side it seems pretty petty.


The 10% is from the purchase price, not the survey price.
________
Park Royal 2 Condos Pattaya


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> If you are dealing with a professional broker int he US, here's the form they should use:
> http://www.integrityyachtsales.com/images/Blank_Sales_Agreement.pdf
> 
> You can annote it for special concerns, do a search there are a number of threads about this subject.
> ...


Sailingfool...I have to humbly disagree..on both counts.

You can walk from anything you don't like about the sea trial and still retain 100% of your deposit.. That's what a sea trial is for....the reasons are innumerable anything form not liking the way she tacks to the way she backs.

This is the main reason as for me a seller, requiring a deposit before those things are allowed....I don't want to wast time with every looky loo walking the docks....someone willing to make a tentative offer with a deposit has already done their homework.

Many brokerages are given permission to have a hired captain or a designated person at the brokerage take the boat out and put it thru its paces instead of the owner...Brokerages don't like the buyers and sellers to even meet as a mater of fact...many deals have been messed up that way...


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Stillraining said:


> ....You can walk from anything you don't like about the sea trial and still retain 100% of your deposit.. That's what a sea trial is for....the reasons are innumerable anything form not liking the way she tacks to the way she backs....


Au contraire...the usual purpose of the sea trial, if any, is to confirm the proper operation of equipment that cannot be tested on the hard, such as engine performance under load, transmission, depth sounder, etc. This is my experience in the Northeast where many or most sales occur while the boat is on the hard.

Note the standard contract does not reference a sea trial, when I have seen one written it, it is scheduled after the sale is concluded, with an escrow amount being held out, such as $5000. Only the scrow is at risk from the sea trial, the sale is already consumed and the buyer is the new owner. For the sea trial, the buyer/new owner and broker will be on board, the buyer may try to have their surveyor on board or not, and the seller is probably at the bank. I've never heard of any sailing on a sea trial, usually the boat has just been launched and may not be rigged.

You certainly can negotiate most anything, but the above is what I believe brokers in the Northeast are happy to arrange for their off-season buyers.


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## jwreck (Jan 25, 2010)

I'm certainly not an expert, but I just went through this this week. We did all the negotiating and the contract was signed before I wrote a check for the deposit. The contract was subject to survey, sea trial, and financing to the buyer's (my) satisfaction. The sea trial was part of the survey. The surveyor examined some things on the boat first (mostly the engine) then we motored to the ship yard for the haul out. After the quick haul we went out into the bay for a sea trial. We were out there about an hour or so. As someone said, not joy riding, testing all the sails and systems. We docked again and did the rest of the survey. Once I realized that the boat was not acceptable, we went to the broker's office and I signed a letter of rejection and my refund was issued the next day.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> Au contraire...the usual purpose of the sea trial, if any, is to confirm the proper operation of equipment that cannot be tested on the hard, such as engine performance under load, transmission, depth sounder, etc. This is my experience in the Northeast where many or most sales occur while the boat is on the hard.
> 
> Note the standard contract does not reference a sea trial, when I have seen one written it, it is scheduled after the sale is concluded, with an escrow amount being held out, such as $5000. Only the scrow is at risk from the sea trial, the sale is already consumed and the buyer is the new owner. For the sea trial, the buyer/new owner and broker will be on board, the buyer may try to have their surveyor on board or not, and the seller is probably at the bank. I've never heard of any sailing on a sea trial, usually the boat has just been launched and may not be rigged.
> 
> You certainly can negotiate most anything, but the above is what I believe brokers in the Northeast are happy to arrange for their off-season buyers.


Ah!...I did not know we were talking about a boat on the hard..with no planed immediate sea trial...but I don't think the OP is either as he asked about haul out expense... .

Yes that would be a different kettle of fish I suppose...In that case as a seller I would sell as is where is.

FWIW ..I doubt I would ever by anything except a clasic project boat or a down right steal of a deal with out a sea trial..and if its a sail boat , yes definetly under sail and power both..but it sounds like that's a common practice in your experience...to risky for me.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

sailingfool said:


> Au contraire...the usual purpose of the sea trial, if any, is to confirm the proper operation of equipment that cannot be tested on the hard, such as engine performance under load, transmission, depth sounder, etc. This is my experience in the Northeast where many or most sales occur while the boat is on the hard.
> 
> You certainly can negotiate most anything, but the above is what I believe brokers in the Northeast are happy to arrange for their off-season buyers.


I agree with the above. If you want to buy a sailing boat, the sea trial is not there to see whether the boat sails at 35 degrees off the wind or 55 degrees off the wind when close hauled or any other sailing characteristic. The buyer is expected to already know what kind of boat he is buying and how it sails. Otherwise you could get to the end of the whole process and say "Oh no, the boat didn't go through the tack fast enough for me" and walk. I don't believe that would fly in any country and I've bought boats in three.

SF is in my opinion correct, the sea trial is to check all the systems that cannot be checked by simple inspection such as autopilots, depth sounders transmssions, engine performance etc.

The only other point I would make is that I have test SAILED every boat I have bought. There are sailing systems that have to be checked as well (mast tracks, reefing lines, furlers under pressure, winches under pressure, steering system freeplay/operation, etc,)

Only put a deposit down and sign a contract when you know that if the boat is in good shape you* are* going to buy it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Seems like we are splitting hairs a bit here. It is hard to do a deal when everything else has been completed satisfactorily (hauled, surveyed and squawks negotiated) except the prospective owner taking her for a sail. The typical contracts that I've seen also forbid the current owner from using the boat after she's been surveyed. I wouldn't go through all that as a seller, effectively take her off the market for a couple of weeks and interupt my use of the boat, if the buyer could simply reject her on a whim and say they didn't like how well she pointed on the test sail.

However, having a sea trial as a part of the survey in the first place is different and highly desirable. I know of them being done in the dead of winter in the northeast.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Quite correct Minnewaska - there is no such thing as only on correct way to buy (or sell) a boat. What I don't get is why some have so much consternation with common sense..


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have bought well over a dozen boats in my life and have been riding shotgun on dozens of other deals. If there is a broker involved, the norm is that a 10% good faith money deposit is put up at the time that you make your offer and begin negotiations.

It is critical that your offer that accompanies the deposit be in writing and include language that specifically states that the purchase is subject to survey, sea trial, sail and engine inspection, and that the Buyer may reject the vessel on any grounds discovered in the course of these surveys,trials, and inspections. The language needs to make it clear that should the Buyer reject the boat on these grounds, that the total amount of the deposit is returned in full.

When I have negotiated on boats sight un-seen, I have also included language that says also includes subject to a buyer's inspection so that the language reads something like "the purchase is subject to *buyer inspection,* survey, sea trial, sail and engine inspection, and that the Buyer may reject the vessel on any grounds discovered in the course of these surveys,trials, and inspections. Should buyer reject the boat on this basis the full amount of the good faith deposit shall be returned". This permits you to reject the boat without the expense of a survey.

When I have negotiated on a boat that is too far away to visit easily, I have asked friends in the area to take a 'first look' at the boat. I have also been involved in deals where I have taken a first look for someone outside the area, or where a marine surveyor was hired to do a first look, which is not the same as a full survey and which should not require a deposit.

Lastly, if you are reasonably certain this is the boat that you want, and the price is close enough to the price you want to pay that you are not too concerned with negotiating a suitable price, then I would say, make arrangements with the Broker to go look at the boat and arrange a survey a few days later, figuring that you can submit a contract with deposit when you are at the boat, and hopefully get it ratified while you are there and can get the boat surveyed. Its risky, but if the broker and owner are cooperative, you should be able to make it happen.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Here on the West Coast actually sailing the boat on a sea trial is a given. By the time you're at that stage, though, I agree with someone above that you should already have a reasonable idea if the boat is going to behave in a way that's acceptable to you. I don't know of any deal that's gone south after a sea trial due to sailing characteristics alone.

Like Jeff I've ridden shotgun on a few friends' purchases too and have gone on sea trials with a broker, and with the owner, sometimes both. Sailing the boat was always part of the trial - but our boats are in the water year round.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Faster said:


> Here on the West Coast actually sailing the boat on a sea trial is a given. By the time you're at that stage, though, I agree with the someone above that you should already have a reasonable idea if the boat is going to behave in a way that's acceptable to you. I don't know of any deal that's gone south after a sea trial due to sailing characteristics alone.
> 
> Like Jeff I've ridden shotgun on a few friends' purchases too and have gone on sea trials with a broker, and with the owner, sometimes both. Sailing the boat was always part of the trial - but our boats are in the water year round.


I can see the boat being in the water can change sea trial options.

In the Northeast many, maybe most, deals happen in the winter when the boat is on the hard. A seller in January wants the boat sold...and is not going to agree to the sale closing being dependant on a sea trial scheduled for the third week of May.


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## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> I have bought well over a dozen boats in my life and have been riding shotgun on dozens of other deals. If there is a broker involved, the norm is that a 10% good faith money deposit is put up at the time that you make your offer and begin negotiations.
> 
> It is critical that your offer that accompanies the deposit be in writing and include language that specifically states that the purchase is subject to survey, sea trial, sail and engine inspection, and that the Buyer may reject the vessel on any grounds discovered in the course of these surveys,trials, and inspections. The language needs to make it clear that should the Buyer reject the boat on these grounds, that the total amount of the deposit is returned in full.
> 
> ...


Awesome response.

Yeah, I know I ran an offer by here on the Hardin but, hey, I'm larnin. The thing is, the process has to be fair to the buyer and seller.

This is how I am looking to do this and I think it's in line with what you wrote. Please correct me if I'm wrong or off.

My key here is to get a good deal for me and not be an dick to the seller and make their life ****ty -- I expect the same in my direction. This doesn't mean I give away the farm to get their boat but it also means I don't lowball them or insult their boat. Respect goes a long way in my book, so I give it a go in every deal I make.

1) I go look at a series of boats and get a general idea of the condition and suitability for our needs.

2) Once I am ready, I pay a second visit to a boat and do a more through buyer's non-invasive inspection (using the boat inspecting tips I have seen posted here), letting the broker/seller know that I intend to make an offer and this is a basis to inform that offer.

3) Based on #2, I either reject the boat or make an offer and give them a deposit to be placed into escrow.

That offer is contingent on the successful completion, to my satisfaction, of my inspection, sea trial or survey (I prefer that order but they can be swapped or mixed, depending on the situation), and financing.

My deposit is fully refundable if the above conditions are not met. This is not negotiable on my part, just as not letting me haul a boat or sea trial is not negotiable on most seller's part.

If the owner does not want to accept this offer, which should be reasonable and fair from what I have learned from you all here, then I will go look at the 2nd boat on my list. Lather, rinse, repeat if necessary. I don't expect this to be a problem though.

#2 and #3 can be switched as necessary....

4) Sea trial -- check every major system, check all sails, rigging and general performance of the boat. I'm not talking about expecting a Baba 40 to sail to windward like a raceboat but, to answer the question: "based on my knowlege and research on the boat in question, does it perform as expected for that boat?"

5) Survey -- am I satisfied that the results of the survey are either good to go, or do I need to note some items to bring back to the table (problems found).

Like I said, #4 and #5 could be swapped, depending on how the survey is done.

If anything is found in the sea trial or survey, I'm not satisfied, so I can go back and respectfully see if we can work out the differences. Hell, the *seller* might not know about an issue.

6) Financing -- now I am getting pre-approved but, finance companies can be finicky.

So, if all this goes well, and we can work out a good deal for the both of us, then we each get what we want. The seller sells and gets a check. I buy and get my boat.

At least that is my understanding now and the process I will try to follow.

I'm sure this isn't perfect and some of you know this process better than me.

Correct me or make suggestions at will.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Well all I can say is that when the day comes for me to sell my boat ,I do not want the buyers to feel up against the wall and forced into buying it if after the sea trial it is not what they expected.. or want.

Evidently It seems a lot of you must have sailed every boat manufactured and know how they all handle before you step aboard...I don't have that luxury and would not expect my buyer to either.

I would have way worse feelings making a buyer feel committed to the purchase of my boat knowing he wasn't thrilled with it just because we got all the way to sea trials, then any feeling of disappointment I would get of not completing the sale and refunding their deposit.

If that's the common sense I lack then so be it.


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## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

Stillraining said:


> Well all I can say is that when the day comes for me to sell my boat ,I do not want the buyers to feel up against the wall and forced into buying it if after the sea trial it is not what they expected.. or want.
> 
> Evidently It seems a lot of you must have sailed every boat manufactured and know how they all handle before you step aboard...I don't have that luxury and would not expect my buyer to either.
> 
> ...


Awesome attitude.

Imagine if, as has been described here, one had to buy a house or a car that way?

Again, thanks for your straightforward and decent attitude.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Stillraining said:


> Well all I can say is that when the day comes for me to sell my boat ,I do not want the buyers to feel up against the wall and forced into buying it if after the sea trial it is not what they expected.. or want.
> 
> Evidently It seems a lot of you must have sailed every boat manufactured and know how they all handle before you step aboard...I don't have that luxury and would not expect my buyer to either.
> 
> ...


It is unrealistic to think that a sea trial of perhpas an hour or two is going to tell you much about a boat's sailing behavior. Suppose there is no wind, or it's blowing a gale? Whatever, you would get at best a narrow snapshot of limited behavior in one set of conditions.

The truth is you need to use other sources to exstablish an understanding and expectation regarding the sailing characteristics. Like that, I would would estimate that probably 60-80% of the boat sales in the northeast are closed without a sail being hoisted.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> It is unrealistic to think that a sea trial of perhpas an hour or two is going to tell you much about a boat's sailing behavior. Suppose there is no wind, or it's blowing a gale? Whatever, you would get at best a narrow snapshot of limited behavior is one set of conditions.
> 
> The truth is you need to use other sources to exstablish an understanding and expectation regarding the sailing characteristics. Like that, I would would estimate that probably 60-80% of the boat sales in the northeast are closed without a sail being hoisted.


Your mind is set Sailingfool, as is mine...

I had heard some Irwin's are prone to oil caning...If mine had shown any signs of that under sail I would have walked....I will leave you with that thought as my last post on the matter.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Well

Its IMHP a bit unrealistic to have soemone take a BOAT off the market in the winter and then reject it in MAY becasue of some most likely well known sailing quirk that is NOT a defect 


There are NOT many boats out there WITHOUT good size owners groups with web sights FULL of info 

I was able to find ALL the Cal 29 problems BEFORE i got involved with the boat


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