# Singlehanding a 41' Hunter DS?



## Networker (May 7, 2013)

I'm recently single and selling my house. Considering moving to Miami and living on a boat in a nice Marina to save money. Since I'd be living there for 2 years, I'd want a brand new boat that's somewhat large so I can live comfortably, yet not so large that I can't sail it solo. Money isn't an object, rather getting a decent sized boat that I can sail and live on is more my consideration. I can get a 50 or 60' if I wanted, and they look quite livable, but they had 6 and 7 foot drafts which would limit my Keys and Bahamas sailing, and I sincerely doubt anyone can sail it alone? 

So, after doing some research, the 2013 Hunter 41' DS looks big enough, has a 'master bedroom,' and a 5' keel so I could do some sailing in Keys and Bahamas. It has a shower, and if I find a nice marina, can pull up to luxury one with pool and facilities. 

My question is if the boat is too big to sail on alone if I wanted to?

Thanks for any advice!!


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

Welcome to Sailnet, Networker. 

Sailing a 41' boat singlehandedly can be done, but how well it can be done and how safely depends on the skill and experience of the sailor. Unless you have considerable experience getting any boat over 30' or so into and out of a slip singlehanded is going to be a handful in all but the calmest weather.


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## Networker (May 7, 2013)

Hi Andy, thanks for your reply. I don't have even a minute of experience on any boat larger than a canoe. Can't sail, but figured I could learn this summer. I was going to take ASA 101-104 lessons this summer, then get a boat this fall. If I can't do it on such a big boat, then its probably better to get a used starter boat and live in an apartment near the water. Or move up north with my friends and family and get some company on weekend trips. Just trying to look at what's realistic vs fantasy at this stage.


Thanks !!


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## ronspiker (Jun 27, 2001)

Like bigdogandy says. Sailing is easy. If you can get the sails up, I'm assuming you are in good health. The issue is going to be getting into and out of your slip. You can get a bow thruster and that would help. The issue that might come up is if it is too hard to sail you won't. You will just sit at the dock and that would be a waste.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

If money is not anissue, it certainly eliminates most of the problems. Why bother go for a Hunter when you can get a 2013 Hallberg Rassy 412.

Hallberg-Rassy - Yachts - Aft Cockpit Boats

The boat was designed to handled by just one finger and occasionally may be two fingers. Make sure you watch the video .


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## msogin (Jun 20, 2006)

Networker said:


> Hi Andy, thanks for your reply. I don't have even a minute of experience on any boat larger than a canoe. Can't sail, but figured I could learn this summer. I was going to take ASA 101-104 lessons this summer, then get a boat this fall. If I can't do it on such a big boat, then its probably better to get a used starter boat and live in an apartment near the water. Or move up north with my friends and family and get some company on weekend trips. Just trying to look at what's realistic vs fantasy at this stage.
> 
> Thanks !!


The first large boat I owned was a Beneteau 411. Admittedly I had experience sailing and racing dingy's like Flying Dutchman, Snipes, Lightnings and Thistles, but within a few weeks I was fully comfortable sailing the 411 single handed. In fact I found sailing the 411 to be much easier than any of the small boats that I previously owned. The biggest challenge was picking up a mooring line. If money is no object, buy a boat with a bow thruster to make docking relatively easy. You also will want a furling jib/genoa and furling mainsail. And of course a good autopilot is important.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

You might look at a Nonsuch 33 or 36. Very easy to sail since there is only one big sail to handle. Quite beamy so there is lots of room including a shower. Older boats but many have been very well looked after. A good idea to get a bow thruster installed.


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

Networker said:


> I don't have even a minute of experience on any boat larger than a canoe. Can't sail, but figured I could learn this summer.


If you have to ask the question, I believe in all sincerity and humility that you already have your answer.
Jumping headlong into a "Big Boat" without the years of experience that it takes to become a "Sailor" is not at all recommended. 
Charter starting at 25' and sail solo,working your way up to 40+ and I promise you that your perspective will be altered, big time.
Dick
BTW, I'm 77 and have been sailing since age 12.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Networker said:


> Hi Andy, thanks for your reply. I don't have even a minute of experience on any boat larger than a canoe. Can't sail, but figured I could learn this summer. I was going to take ASA 101-104 lessons this summer, then get a boat this fall. If I can't do it on such a big boat, then its probably better to get a used starter boat and live in an apartment near the water. Or move up north with my friends and family and get some company on weekend trips. Just trying to look at what's realistic vs fantasy at this stage.
> 
> Thanks !!


If this is the case, why such a rush to buy a boat new or used. Learn to sail and take time to make the right decision. The wind and ocean will be there when you are ready.

YMMV.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

another advantage to learning to sail first is you can make a more informed decision on what you want in a boat. there is a huge spectrum of types of vessels at any given size and cost. depending on what aspects of the sailing life you are drawn to as you learn will have significant impact on what vessel you will choose.


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## theonecalledtom (Jan 2, 2008)

if you do buy a big new boat get some lessons in a rental - ding the dock with someone else's boat first...


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

Networker said:


> Hi Andy, thanks for your reply. I don't have even a minute of experience on any boat larger than a canoe. Can't sail, but figured I could learn this summer. I was going to take ASA 101-104 lessons this summer, then get a boat this fall. If I can't do it on such a big boat, then its probably better to get a used starter boat and live in an apartment near the water. Or move up north with my friends and family and get some company on weekend trips. Just trying to look at what's realistic vs fantasy at this stage.
> 
> Thanks !!


There are lots of good people with lots of experience on this site that will be happy to share their knowledge.....and so will I!

It would be good to get some experience before plunking down the cash for a brand new boat, in my opinion.....the ASA courses are a great way to get the boat handling experience and chartering is a way to get a look at some different boats, but you could wind up owning a boat that isn't really suited to what you want to do with it if you don't take some time to learn about the amazing variety of boats that are available out there.

Another great way to get experience on a range of boats is to join a sailing club and volunteer as crew for races or as deck help on weekend daysails -whatever it takes to get out on the water!

Any way you go, best of luck in your adventures.


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## theonecalledtom (Jan 2, 2008)

At the very least smack into the dock with a rental a couple of times before you scar some brand new gel coat.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Keep in mind it's not just 'buying' the boat, it's the upkeep and maintenance ever thereafter. A 40+ footer is going to cost big on an ongoing basis. Also have you actually researched the costs of 'living aboard cheaply'? Moorage rates can be high, there may be liveaboard surcharges if indeed living aboard is even permitted, city/municipal taxes if so,... contrary to what many believe 'cheap' may not be the right buzzword.

Sorry, but with self confessed zero experience you're putting the cart before the horse.. rent, beg rides, charter, take courses, read, ask questions.. after a year or so of that sort of thing you'll have a much better idea of what's realistic vs whats imagination.

And if indeed money is no object, spend some time looking around at what many would consider more premium brands.. Hunters are OK but there are much nicer/better boats out there for someone with some (or a lot of) cash to spend.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Yes you can 41' is not that big and within a short period of time you will be wondering what you were worried about, in fact you may wish you had gone a bit bigger. If you stick with a sloop then 45' is about max to be able to move sails on and off the boat as they do get heavy with size. If you go bigger get a ketch, this would also mean you are a recluse and don't plan on having contact with others of you species . Getting sail on and off the boat is not an every day occurrence and you should be able to get help with that at the time. You will need an auto pilot and that it. Bow thruster, well I would love to have one but as I don't, I do without. The other thing is things happen slower on bigger boats. Get the boat you like and can afford and enjoy,


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

Networker said:


> ...Since I'd be living there for 2 years, I'd want a brand new boat that's somewhat large so I can live comfortably, yet not so large that I can't sail it solo. Money isn't an object, rather getting a decent sized boat that I can sail and live on is more my consideration. I can get a 50 or 60' if I wanted...


I wonder why a catamaran isn't mentioned? There are no better sailing live aboards than a catamaran, and a 40' cat equals the interior space of a 60' monohull. Scale up as required 1.5 to 1.

All it takes is a check with a few zeros after the first digit, and he says that's not a problem.

Puzzling....


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

SimonV said:


> Yes you can 41' is not that big and within a short period of time you will be wondering what you were worried about, in fact you may wish you had gone a bit bigger. If you stick with a sloop then 45' is about max to be able to move sails on and off the boat as they do get heavy with size. If you go bigger get a ketch, this would also mean you are a recluse and don't plan on having contact with others of you species . Getting sail on and off the boat is not an every day occurrence and you should be able to get help with that at the time. You will need an auto pilot and that it. Bow thruster, well I would love to have one but as I don't, I do without. The other thing is things happen slower on bigger boats. Get the boat you like and can afford and enjoy,


 I agree.

First boat was a 38, second a 47, third a 41. All new.

The selling yard will give you an orientation. Hire a delivery Captain to help/ teach you on the trip to your marina,

Get a bow thruster. Autopilot. Put fenders or rubber trim on your dock (preferably floating dock).

I had no sailing experience when I bought my 38. IMO, a bigger boat is easier to learn on because it is more forgiving in wind gusts and to beginner trimming mistakes.

I singlehanded the 47 footer all the time. With the bow thruster docking was much easier than the 38 without. The 41 with thruster is easy.

Have fun. A 41 is a great size for a livaboard and new Hunters are great coastal cruisers. Mine have been Catalina and Beneteau, but the 3 brands are similar.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Networker said:


> Can't sail, but figured I could learn this summer. I was going to take ASA 101-104 lessons this summer, then get a boat this fall.


This is a good approach. Right now it's all theoretical and pictures in brochures. By the time you finish the 104 course you'll have time sailing boats in the 30-40 foot range and a better idea of what it means to handle a boat that size.

A good stop in the fall is the Annapolis or Miami boat shows. You'll get a chance to step aboard new boats from a lot of different manufacturers. If you're buying new there are also some very good deals to be had at the shows on both boats and all the gear you'll need to equip yours.

Best of luck, you'll enjoy the ASA courses.


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## lajimo (Sep 5, 2011)

A new hunter 41 will be easy to singlehand once you get the hang of it. I went a similar route 18 months ago with a 1985 Hunter 40 (money is an issue!) and single hand frequently. 

Your plan for ASA courses is sound, that's a good start. I spent a year taking courses and then renting a variety of boats for daysails from the place that gave the courses - sailed everything from a Watkins 27 to a Beneteau 39, including single handing. Helped immensely but I found that the first 20 trips on my own boat was the real education. 

On my boat the most important things for single handing are the autopilot and preset dock lines for entering and leaving the slip. If I could add one thing it would be an electric winch to help raise the mainsail - but if you get mainsail furling then not so much of an issue. I don't understand all the comments about bowthrusters - with a little practice docking becomes second nature, even singlehanded.


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## flandria (Jul 31, 2012)

I believe that Beneteau has devised and demonstrated a boat handling system that allows very good and tight control in confined areas/marinas on their new boats. Since money is no object, why not check it out before you"give up".

Spend some time and money learning to dock (in and out) NOW. Perhaps a
Boat dealer can find someone you can hire for that?

Good luck!


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## brokencog (May 7, 2013)

41 isn't so big until something is going wrong - which will, and often, when sailing with as much experience as this original poster has.

Bigger boats are slow ... I think the person who suggested that is a troll ... Bigger boats are slower in the same way riding up in an SUV feels slower than down in an MG; perspective is everything.

The flip side of Bigger/Slower is Size = Inertia. The posts about "docking" allude to this, but nobody is stating it ... that 40+ sailboat may be moving "slowly"; when it hits the dock, the dock will be moving "slowly" as well.

Anyway, I enjoyed learning to sail in small boats ( I even lived on some, sometimes ) and also enjoyed sailing larger sailboats ( I even lived on some, longer times ). The respective skills are complementary not exclusive.

Reading the original post, I get the sense there is more of a desire to BUY something, than to USE something.


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## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

We learned to sail on a 43ft boat. We live in it during the summers and sail as much as we can. It can definetly be done. We hired 2 captains for a week. One whose primary job was sailing the boat through the East coast, the other whose job was teaching me and my wife. Maybe unorthodox but it worked. We also did the ASA courses and would make that a must do. I'm not claiming that taught us anywhere close to everything we needed to know. Just enough to be safe. In 7 years of living/sailing we've definetly learned much more.

With that said. If I were you I would make a bow thruster a must have, it will be invaluable with your current skill level.

Yes, the right 40-43 ft boat can be singlehanded easily, ours can. I second all the coments that the hard part will be docking wihout an extra pair of hands. I recommend a new girlfriend to help with that part.

BTW if you're interested our 43 ft boat is going up for sale (5'2" draft). We're upgrading to a 50 ft boat. And no I wouldn't suggest starting with a 50-60 ft boat. 40-43 ft max.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

theonecalledtom said:


> if you do buy a big new boat get some lessons in a rental - ding the dock with someone else's boat first...


I doubt the charter company will let you take their boat out without experience. It you ding their boat, expect to pay a high cost plus markup.

Go take lessons and sign on as a crew to learn the ropes, there is no short cut in life, but smart person will learn faster than others. Since the OP is independently wealthy, I assume he makes his fortunate by himself, so I assume he is a sharp person, so sailing would be an easy task to learn. 
I am sure he will be fine whatever he chooses.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Flybyknight said:


> Jumping headlong into a "Big Boat" without the years of experience that it takes to become a "Sailor" is not at all recommended.


Then I'd advise the guy to definitely not become a "Sailor" (whatever it means within these highfalutin quotes). I know many people who jumped "headlong into a 'Big Boat'" without a lick of experience. Amazingly, they're still living to talk about it.

There's a variety of ways to gain experience safely after buying your boat, many of which have been suggested here. I agree that a tight slip in a marina might be a deterrent to sail at first, so choose your boat's home accordingly. If you can get by on a mooring, you'll probably sail the boat a whole lot more, but many can't get by without the comforts of being dockside.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

With more and more people seemingly have a fair amount of money to spend, 'jumping into a big boat' does seem to be becoming the norm these days. And of course it's do-able. Where 20-25 footers used to be your typical 'starter', that's certainly moved up into the 30s and higher.

Sometimes it's hard to give up on the 'traditional ways'...and to me it still seems a logical progression to start/learn on the smaller side of the scale and move your way up as your skill and comfort levels grow... but EMMV...


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

You guys/gals saying it is easy to single hand dock a 40 foot or larger boat in an unfamilar (or even a familar) marina are blowing a lot of smoke. Maybe that is the case if there is no wind or current, but if there is, things get very difficult. Maybe the Hunter joy stick control will make things easy (by using both a prop thruster and sail drive)- but not all boats have that, but maybe that is what the OP needs to have- but what do you do not "if" but "when" it breaks.

I single my 34 quite a bit, and docking is never easy and it is always stressful. Normally I am dealing with quite a bit of wind and current. The problem is once things start to go wrong, it is very hard to recovery when you are alone. If I could only push my bow off with 10 lbs of force I would be good. But how do I get to the bow when I need to be at the tiller? Sure you can rig lines to help the single hander, but things still go wrong. And this is not just me becasue of my lack of years and years of experience. I have seen very experienced sailing instructors have difficulty docking a 40 footer with two on board, and an ex sea captain hitting the dock, even with years of docking experience. With wind and current, docking is always hard- that is why the big boys have tugs. Sometimes the best you can do is if you are going to collide with somthing, try to do it lightly and damage only your own boat, if anything.

I would think sailing to the Bahamas alone on would not be the most relaxing thing to do. Having to steer, navigate, tend to the boat, sleep all alone would be stressful as would bringing the boat into an unfamilar harbor. 

Definietly get out and try chartering in Bahamas or Carribean and get the feel of a big boat, and what it is really like out there, and take some friends with you.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

What's your real goal? Is it to live on the water, or to save money? Both were in the beginning of your original post. If you want a boat that you can live on and still handle singlehanded as a novice sailor, I'd suggest looking at something in the 25-35' range, and probably more in the 27-30. These aren't great as floating condos, but if you pick up a used one for $20-30K, you'll be able to find something that's decent and disposable given your budget (or lack thereof). Live on it for a year, see what you like/don't like, and hone your skills. Then move up to a 40-something if/when you think you're ready for it.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Most of the folks I know or have known to live on boats, never sail the boat, or at least sail very rarely. Just takes to much time to pack and prep all the accumulated junk to get ready to go to sea. Add that to a boat that is near your range of size to handle, and you will always tend to talk yourself out of going sailing. Might be better to find a condo/apartment on the water next to your docked boat- best of both worlds.


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## Networker (May 7, 2013)

Hi everyone, I'm overwhelmed by all the great advice and words of caution. I had to look up what a bow thruster was (still don't quite get it, but seems to be a prop in the front to help make turns) and other advice you have all given, and it has only shown that I don't know what I don't know. 

My logic has been thus. Just got divorced and lost my house, dog, etc (losing the dog really hurts). Since it's just me, I can now live anywhere in the world, even a tent if i had to, while I get my life back together. I need a short term plan until I figure out my long term plan. I could move back to NYC where my life would revolve around bars and restaurants, traffic on weekends if I wanted to get away, with a boat somewhere. Hate the weather and lifestyle, can only sail in summer, and having been there 10 years, want something new. Second choice was California, maybe SD of SF, with SF seeming like a better choice given the sailing, weekend trips in the mountains, access to Vegas, and city itself. Weather isn't so great, but better lifestyle and access to women in the city. This is probably where I'll end up, but the water is cold and can't jump off boat. So finally, I figured i could move to Miami and live on South Beach near warm water, sail year round, enjoy weather and access to women, plus use weekends sailing to vacation-like places with access to longer vacations to Bahamas and Caribbean, it was a great short term plan until I know what the heck to do. Looking at apartments on South Beach, many were small, and living in a larger apartment alone didn't seem like a good choice day 1. So then if I moved into a tiny apt and bought a boat, the boats I looked at were NICER, although maybe not as big, but close enough in comparison to a small apartment / townhouse on the beach.

So my logic was why not try to live in a bigger boat, but one that wasn't so big that I couldn't use it, but big enough to sail on and leverage on weekends or week trips until I figure out my long term plan. hen I could sial it to SF or NYC or whatever I end up doing and have it as my weekend/summer toy. But in the meantime, learn how to use it in Miami and enjoy life a bit. That's the genesis behind my question. 

If I just lived on board and never took it out, my friend said I'd still have to get it up river in Miami during hurricanes, so no matter what, iI'm going to have to know how to sail it. And If i live on a boat up river, not sure if that's on a mooring or in a marina, so I need to look into that. If this dream is impossible, then i can get a starter boat and live in a condo, but seems like some people think its' ok and others think I'm going to get into trouble.

I did go to the Spring Sailboat Annapolis show earlier this month just to see what was livable. Then I mashed up minimum size I could live on with smallest keel size so I could use it down Florida, and came to same conclusion many have come up with - catamaran is most logical choice, but most of the room is spent on beds and I'm alone, it's a waste of space. That is still an option since those can sail into skinny water, but wasn't sure for a single guy if wanted it. I do like the nets in front and think chicks would like to lounge on that as opposed to the small back of a sailboat, so its still an option. With that said, I then looked at the Hunter since it had the best inside look and space, plus the 'master bedroom,' along with smallest keel size (Island Packet had even smaller keel size, but I didn't love the interior).

Why I don't pick a different boat or more upscale boat are good questions, and I could, but just wanted to balance cool interior with functionality. The Halberg looked nice, but didn't have a master bedroom that I could live on. I also need to research what the buttons on the winch mean in terms of 1 finger sailing to see if that's a good tradeoff or not. Finally, I'm not living on any boat unless I can get DirectTV (I see its available on boats) so i can watch my football on Sundays.

With that said, love the advice and hope it keeps coming. Seems if I can learn to dock, i'm in business. Being a passenger on a boat, I assume the only reason I can't dock solo is that I want someone to jump off and put the rope on the hooks and help pull boat in, correct? That's something I can't do alone unless I pull it in perfectly and cut off engine at right time, coast in, etc? 

Because I don't know what I don't know yet, it seems like the advice given is that sailing solo is much easier, except when I get into trouble. Then it's life or death. When in trouble, which I assume is too much wind, can't i just drop sails and batten down the hatches? I've read in horrible situations, sailors would cut off sails if need be, and be three sheets to the wind. As a newbie have always wanted to ask that.


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## Networker (May 7, 2013)

Hi SoOkay, I would respond to your very kind PM, but this site has a 7 day restriction before I can log in and see it. So don't think I was being rude.


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## Networker (May 7, 2013)

One more question, if people by 60' sailboats, how do they sail them? Do they have a wife who helps out? Or friends who know how to sail and help hoist sails? People buy these bigger boats but how do they use them?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

A sixty footer would require a couple who really know what they are doing or even having full-time paid crew. If you could not be comfortable living on something around 40 feet or even smaller perhaps the condo route is best. Also check out a catamaran as someone suggested. By sailboat standards you get an immense amount of room and twin engines makes handling easier but there is still a big learning curve. Also with a cat if you are at the helm you are a long way from the dock when it comes to getting lines ashore.

Final thought, the 'big bedroom' style of boat tends not to as good if you want to sail long distances as something like the HR. You might also check out new Amels. They are gorgeous boats with lots of space and a ketch rig makes sail handling easier. Expensive though.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

brokencog said:


> Reading the original post, I get the sense there is more of a desire to BUY something, than to USE something.


Yeah, that's my impression, as well... Frankly, for a full-time liveaboard who desires a 'master bedroom' in a boat of that size, and for whom money is apparently no object, I'd recommend a powerboat... A Sea Ray or Sunseeker would definitely score him plenty more chicks in Miami and South Beach than a Humter, that's for certain... (grin)

I rate the current trend in newbies starting out 40-footers to be a major contributing factor to sailors motoring more while underway, and sailing less... And, for some of the appalling sail trim one so often sees out there...

Learning to sail on boats of such size, it's simply so much more difficult to appreciate the _DIFFERENCE_ that is made by the sort of tweaking of sail controls that are such a part of sailing small boats well, and where the feedback is so much more apparent, and instantaneous...


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

One thing to think about. Been to Florida, but never lived there, but in the summer, I hear air conditioning is pretty much mandatory. It probaby is not the most fun thing to be cooped up in a sail boat with ac going. A catamaran or power boat with its sliding door and more room would probably work better.

I am with you on moving out of NY. I lived in the north east all my life and getting to a year round warm climate was a great change- one you could probably use. Florida sounds like a great place. I would look into joining a sailing club, and just chartering some big boats for now.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Networker said:


> Seems if I can learn to dock, i'm in business. Being a passenger on a boat, I assume the only reason I can't dock solo is that I want someone to jump off and put the rope on the hooks and help pull boat in, correct? That's something I can't do alone unless I pull it in perfectly and cut off engine at right time, coast in, etc?
> 
> Because I don't know what I don't know yet, it seems like the advice given is that sailing solo is much easier, except when I get into trouble. Then it's life or death. When in trouble, which I assume is too much wind, can't i just drop sails and batten down the hatches? I've read in horrible situations, sailors would cut off sails if need be, and be three sheets to the wind. As a newbie have always wanted to ask that.


They way I dock single handed, I come in next to the pier very slow, reverse engine to stop completely, step off and tie boat at the beam, then stern. Problem is sometime the wind is blowing me off the pier, and there is a boat on other side of me, if boat is to far from pier, I cannot tie her off. And if I just reverse, the prop walk, along with wind blowing bow off can cause the boat to just want to do a 180 deg turn. Docking is like driving a car on black ice- somtimes you have no brakes, cannot steer, and if you give it gas the wheels just spin.

My boat has low free board when compared to say a Hunter, so she is easy to step off. A catamaran or a lot of the new boats are difficult to step off- they have high freeboard to make the cabins bigger. This high freeboard will also catch the wind and push the boat around, making docking even harder.

In a blow, you never want to compeletely drop sails, then you have no control and the boat will swing wildley, best thing to do is hove to if you have sea way and just want or need a break from the action. There are hundreds of books on storm management. But how would you handle a jammed sail halyard alone, in high winds? There are thousands of issues to deal with a think about, and thousands of things that can and will go wrong, but you will need to manage and deal with them.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

networker,
If money is no object then get a Jeanneau 41DS with "dock and go". Skip the Hunter. While docking you'll embarrass every old salt within a week.

Besides; what's a few dings in the learning process.

ASA 101-104; then hire a local to go out with you to practice and in a month or two you will have it down. You'll find plenty of good sailors to go out on a new boat.

I'd say go for it!! Don't let the naysayers scare you away. 40' is just right. Especially on a modern boat.

2013 Jeanneau 41DS Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Be fore warned!!! I'm gonna be a grumpy old man like Bob my hero.
1.Motor boats s-ck. Wife was a motorboat liveaboard all her summers as a kid and I did short hop transports on Grand Banks. Noisy,stinky and bouncy even at anchor. With cost of fuel count your pennies if you want to go anywhere. Come on folks this is a sailing forum.
2. Big boats are easier to sail. Hard to really screw up and put in irons and they still go forward pretty good even if badly out of trim. General speaking if you keep all the telltales going aft you go forward. Can learn balance, twist, chord,draft,sag,,slot dynamics later.
3. big boats are harder to dock,moor,maintain and are bigger holes in the ocean for your kitty.
4. Admiral is small ( 4'10") - I got lousy wheels and a gut. Cruising,voyaging and keeping life together while living on a boat is not about strength. It's about temperment and knowledge. Our new boat has bowthrusher and all powered winches.However, never get a boat so big you can't sail it when it all breaks ('cause it will). That seems major reason see alot in the 40-50' range. Still possible to raise strike and reef without powered aid. Remember even if you are testosterone crazed when sailing it's usually more important to be able to get it down then get it up.

In the same line of thinking even if you have fancy heat and AC never get a boat where the natural airflow won't keep you cool and the boat ventilated or can't be buttoned up to keep you warm. Never get a boat where your next drink of life giving water is dependent on a machine working. Never put yourself in a position where getting to your next harbor is dependant on another machine working.

Sorry about that but I feel better now. Thanks for your understanding and kindness.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I am 65 and single hand my 44 footer for about 6 months of the year between Trinidad and St Maarten. I see no problems in what you plan to do with two caveats.

1 - you need a bowthruster to help you dock..

2 - if you are going to be in a marina in Florida in the summer you need some serious AC.


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Yeah, that's my impression, as well... Frankly, for a full-time liveaboard who desires a 'master bedroom' in a boat of that size, and for whom money is apparently no object, I'd recommend a powerboat... A Sea Ray or Sunseeker would definitely score him plenty more chicks in Miami and South Beach than a Humter, that's for certain... (grin)
> 
> I rate the current trend in newbies starting out 40-footers to be a major contributing factor to sailors motoring more while underway, and sailing less... And, for some of the appalling sail trim one so often sees out there...
> 
> Learning to sail on boats of such size, it's simply so much more difficult to appreciate the _DIFFERENCE_ that is made by the sort of tweaking of sail controls that are such a part of sailing small boats well, and where the feedback is so much more apparent, and instantaneous...


The overwhelming majority of guys actually leaving the dock and sailing most weekends at my marina are folks on newer coastal cruisers, with comfy spacious berths, often with bow thrusters, in-mast mains, air conditioners and large wide open cockpits. The ones rarely leaving the dock....aren't.

I ain't no expert and I unfortunately didn't grow up sailing small, but I'm on my 'big' boat sailing the Bay most every weekend, April to November.

The OP does not need to get a power boat, simply because he isn't following your path. Different strokes.

Me? Hopefully I'll be out gunkholing. Or visiting a local yacht club.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

BCC, I don't think the advice about getting a power boat was necessarily bad, nor was it intended to be dismissive. I actually had the same thought when I read the OP's longer description of himself and what he wanted. If you want flash, a big SeaRay would be great. If you want a little more sedate, something like a Grand Banks could be a great option. Now, that kind of room and speed comes with a price - fuel - but if the OP has the cash to buy the fuel, then it's certainly a consideration.

I tend to think that most of the folks like the OP also come here thinking that sailboats go fast. To the OP, please keep in mind, most sailboats don't go much above 7 KTS (roughly 7 MPH). This is inherent because of the design of the hulls - they are displacement hulls, not planing, hulls, and thus physics imposes limitations on them. Catamarans, which tend to be planing hulls, can go fast, but cats have their own issues in a seaway, and they need more space to dock/moor than a mono. Cats tend to be more stable in light to moderate seas than their monohull cousins, but the monos will tend to be more stable in rougher seas. A cat gives you more deck square footage, and maybe more square footage in the cabins too, but as to actual, usable beam below, the mono is going to have you beat. In the OP's case, I'd be a little concerned about the size of the quarters in a cat if he's planning on having "guests" over.

I mean no disrespect to the OP - everyone's needs are different, and different boats work for different people. That being said, as I understand what he wants, he's looking for a boat with a master bedroom, that could be single-handed, and has a nice area for friends to stretch out. That, to me, sounds like a center cockpit monohull. In fact, there are two different types of CC designs, and either one might work. Some, like ChucklesR's Irwin 38 or even an S2 11, have the aft cabin connected to the forward cabin via a hallway, so you don't have to leave the cabin to move about. This can be great for air conditioning purposes, since you can move around to your heart's content without opening any doors/windows. The other style, with the walk-through cockpit, could work too. There's a "master bedroom" that is completely separate from the rest of the cabin, and that leaves a lot of options for how someone in the OP's shoes arranges the boat. You could also heat/cool the cabins separately, which could, at least theoretically, cut some of your energy expenses or requirements. The CC's also have the "beach" on the back - it's a great place to sit, sun, etc. It sounds to me like the OP is, much like me, mostly going to be a fair weather sailor. That means that the chief complaint you hear about CC's - that they hobby-horse - probably won't matter.

Regarding the OP's attraction to the Hunter, you have to understand that you're getting what you pay for with any boat, including the Hunters. I mean no disrespect to the Hunter brand - they are good boats that are perfectly adequate for their intended purposes. And, compared to Catalinas, the other chief rival at that price point, the Hunters look prettier inside. But Hunter builds to a price point. So, they don't always use high-end materials, or high-end equipment. That's not to say the materials and equipment are bad, mind you. It's kind of like a Toyota Corolla versus a Lexus GX. The Corolla's interior is fine, and perfectly adequate for getting you around town, etc.. The materials inside will be fine, and the equipment will work OK, too. But the equipment and materials won't be as refined, or as capable, as in the Lexus. You get what you pay for in both cars, and the same is true with the Hunter (the same is largely true of Catalinas, too). All that being said, if I had the money to buy new, I'd certainly look at the Hunters, so don't get the wrong impression.

To your concern about hurricanes, quite honestly, that's probably not one of the times to go sailing up the river - you'll motor. Unless you want to sail for the fun of it! But if you're doing it to get up river quickly, you'll most likely motor.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I know you are starting a new phase in your life and doing it on a sailboat sounds romantic. In truth being a liveaboard means you will do less sailing. Even a larger sailboat will have limited space but the more you pack a life into it the harder it is to unplug all the lines and go out.

Get a nice condo a bit away from the water and a nice used 35' sailboat in a nice marina. You'll have a home to live in and store stuff and a waterfront condo to spend weekends on, that will be easier to sail. If you are loving the boating waterfront lifestyle a year later then buy the right boat. There is lots of ways to learn to sail the boat, start reading, take ASA courses, hire a captain, or stock the boat with beer and let the other liveaboards know about it, I am sure you will find someone to help you sail the boat.

Here in SD there are Meetup groups, where I can sail almost 5 days a week on other peoples boats. I am sure there is places like that in Miami and SF also


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

BCC1 said:


> The overwhelming majority of guys actually leaving the dock and sailing most weekends at my marina are folks on newer coastal cruisers, with comfy spacious berths, often with bow thrusters, in-mast mains, air conditioners and large wide open cockpits. The ones rarely leaving the dock....aren't.
> 
> I ain't no expert and I unfortunately didn't grow up sailing small, but I'm on my 'big' boat sailing the Bay most every weekend, April to November.
> 
> ...


Well, nice to hear that you're seeing so many folks in your marina out sailing... However, as jephotog has noted, weekend sailing is often a whole different ballgame from the type of sailing liveaboards in a marina typically do... Walk the docks in any marina in South Florida, the liveaboards are conspicuous by how tethered to the dock they have become, how much crap has piled up on deck, the prevalence of sun awnings that would take at least half an hour to dismantle and stow before getting underway, and so on... Not to mention, the amount of growth one sees on so many bottoms... The fact is, in my observation, the overwhelming majority of marina liveaboards in S Florida appear to do precious little sailing...

Living aboard fulltime, the OP will be in Cruisingdad's category of a boat laden down with 'stuff'... Much of the recent thread on Racers for Cruising boats seemed to justify how little sailing many liveaboards do as a result of the boat's performance being compromised by the additional burden, especially in lighter air, and his example of a friend who put his asymetrical spinnaker into storage because he needed the space for more household 'stuff' should be a cautionary one, for any prospective marina liveaboard who thinks he's gonna do a lot of sailing...

My recommendation of a powerboat was somewhat tongue in cheek, but for liveaboard comfort in boats of equivalent size, in general the choice of a powerboat will be a no-brainer... And since the OP claims money is not an issue, presumably the cost of operation will not be, either... A weekend trip over to Bimini would be in the cards, Key West and return could easily be done in a long weekend, as opposed to the week or more such a trip usually requires under sail...

It simply amazes me how many folks seem so eager to jump in with both feet with so little experience, and any real knowledge as to whether they are actually gonna wind up liking sailing, in the long run... Many people return from a charter in the BVIs convinced that the cruising life is for them, but the OP doesn't seem to have even gone that far, yet... Mind you, I'm not complaining that some do so, for the eventual realization that sailing was not really all that they thought it might be has provided me with plenty of delivery work over the years... (grin)


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

To the OP,
Here is a lot of good single hand sailing information:
http://sfbaysss.org/tipsbook/SinglehandedTips.pdf


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

So Networker, what are your current thoughts? We've thrown a lot of info your way.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

I would also look at a Beneteau Oceanis 41 with "dock and go". Worth a look. 
Oceanis 41 / Oceanis / Sailing Yachts - BENETEAU


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## Networker (May 7, 2013)

Current thoughts are:

1. Going to spend a month in Miami starting Memorial Day to see if I like the place. 

2. As part of that, going to take some charter cruises to see if I like sailing (i've done some in the past and have enjoyed it, but now that I'm considering owning a boat, will look at it differently).

3. If I like that, going to take the ASA courses in June.

4. In parallel, going to look at apartments on South Beach and near some marina's to compare that to living in a boat. 

5. Going to look at some boats and see if I can actually live in it without feeling like a hermit. Also taking everyone's comments into consideration that I need to be careful if I live full time on a boat not to overload it with stuff, else I won't sail it, I will need to live a minimalist-zen lifestyle while on the boat which is ok with me. 

6. After all that, I need to determine if Miami is the right place, and if so, what's the best way to pull it off. Seems single-handing a boat can be done, just need to determine if it's the right lifestyle for me for the next year or two while I get life back on track. 

The appealing thing of doing this is I'd save so much living on a boat while potentially living in a vacation-like atmosphere. The downside is it's a completely foreign experience from what I'm used to. I'm only 35, so need to see if I can live a single lifestyle on the boat.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

all good nw. have fun and best wishes on your new life.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

kellysails said:


> I would also look at a Beneteau Oceanis 41 with "dock and go". Worth a look.
> Oceanis 41 / Oceanis / Sailing Yachts - BENETEAU


A lot of the new boat designs are going like the Oceanis 41- wide beam carried far aft. The boat looks like it has a relatively flat bottom- how does a boat like this go to weather? Does she pound?


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

I live in Miami and on a Hunter 36, single hand my boat all the time and wouldn't trade it for nothing. It is a different lifestyle than dirt dwelling. No matter what size boat you have, YOU NEVER HAVE enough space. Living on a sailboat is compromise, after compromise. It is not for everyone. There are two types of liveaboards, those that take the boat out and those that are dockumimiums. Each one is done on a different style boats it seems. Just depends on what you want to do, Sail or live on the water in a boat. 
AC is required in Miami most of the year but so do most places during the summer. I would say 3-4 months of the year I shut mine down. Hurricanes are the biggest problems on what to do with the boat but now so does the entire east coast seems to have that problem as well. 
Now for Hunter, I would take it over most production boats if I was single handling due to all controls at the helm station vs over the cabin top. That alone is worth to me a million because I have total control over my boat at all times without leaving the helm station due to the arch set-up. The arch set-uo is a either you love it or hate it as far as general looks.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

> Current thoughts are:
> 
> 1. Going to spend a month in Miami starting Memorial Day to see if I like the place.
> 
> ...


I think thats some great planning. Very good approach.

And....remember this, at your age (any age) chicks love boats


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

That sounds like a very rational plan. Keep us informed of how it goes! We all want to see you own a boat, we just don't want you to regret it unnecessarily, or make a foolish investment. 

Oh, and we all want a friend in Miami so we can come visit and sail on your new boat!


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## sailguy40 (Feb 6, 2010)

@Networker I started sailing an Oday 22 and just recently jumped to a Hunter 33. I skipped the "middle" boats in the high 20ft range. I dumped money into my 22 and got it really nice then sold. Had I gone with bigger right off the start, I would not have to start all over making it my way as I am kind of doing now. So keep that in mind that if you don't go big enough you may outgrow sooner then you think. This is exactly what someone told me on this very forum years ago and they were right. I most certainly outgrew my 22 and fairly quick. I used to single hand that boat all the time without breaking a sweat. This Hunter here is taking some time to get used to as far as docking it. No problem taking it out the slip or sailing it single handed, it is just bringing it back into the slip. I can't just stick my leg out and stop it from moving like I was able to do with my 22. In fact just the keel on the Hunter weighs what my entire Oday 22 boat weighed! So yeah it would take some practice docking until you get comfortable with it. It is kind of like coming in to land an airplane, if you are not lined up correctly with the runway just circle around and try again. That is what I do with my Hunter and I always get her in fine on the second try. A 41DS is a lot of boat for a new sailor but if you go sailing on someone elses boat and love it and think you will want to live on the boat and spend sometime onboard, I would go with that 41 and you will be done. Remember that the bigger the vessel the more maintenance costs but hey don't sweat it. You will love all the extra space and luxury a bigger boat offers. Oh and do make sure a slip is available for it where you want. It's sometimes harder to find slips for 40+ ft boats in certain places.


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## sailguy40 (Feb 6, 2010)

benesailor said:


> And....remember this, at your age (any age) chicks love boats


They sure as heck do! Let me also say these things are chick magnets.  It's like forget the sports cars and get a sailboat. Me and a few friends of mine said too bad we did not completely know this when we were younger :laugher Oh and you are correct (any age) really.


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## wannabsailor (Jul 9, 2012)

ya know, if I were in your situation, after doing all the research and finding the boat I like and want, I think I would go ahead and get it and then find someone with sailing experience on that type ask them to teach me to sail her, not just over a weekend but for the summer. Sail the islands. After 4 or 5 months you would probably be pretty good at handling your boat... the rest will become experience.

Happy sailing.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

wannabsailor said:


> ya know, if I were in your situation, after doing all the research and finding the boat I like and want, I think I would go ahead and get it and then find someone with sailing experience on that type.


This is a boat not an airplane, exoerience in type is not mandatory to sail it. If someone knows how to sail, they can figure out a new boat in an hour or so. Experience in type counts on a raceboat maybe but not a production cruise boat.


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## wannabsailor (Jul 9, 2012)

Perhaps, but I suspect there is quite a bit of difference between handling a 25 McGregor and a 41 ft. Hunter... I'm just saying.


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## Cartgate (Apr 10, 2013)

Another thing to think about is insurance. We just bought our first boat. Were looking at sizes from 25 to 40 feet. Ended up with a 31 foot, but the insurance company asked alot of questions about our sailing experience. We had some, but not very much. They said we probably would not have qualified for insurance for a 40 footer.


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## Networker (May 7, 2013)

Insurance could be an interesting gotcha. How do they verify experience?


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

casey1999 said:


> A lot of the new boat designs are going like the Oceanis 41- wide beam carried far aft. The boat looks like it has a relatively flat bottom- how does a boat like this go to weather? Does she pound?


Well, I have one. In fact, sitting in the cockpit now. Spent the day sailing. Nope, doesn't pound. Wife was at the helm, 50 degrees off the wind, 16 knots true. She took her hands off the helm, stayed true.

Super easy to sail well.

Don't have the joystick. Just a thruster and folding 3 blade. Great around the dock.

It's a coastal cruiser, though.

Kinda nice. Wasn't any wind when we headed out....back to the dock 8 hours later. Nice day sail.


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## saillessinseattle (Sep 27, 2011)

They will ask you about years of experience, and formal training. ASA courses count and you can get a lot done in 6 months if you are focused. Insurance companies seem to be far more worried about watercraft that move faster than 8 knots and the damage they can make. For instance they exclude coverage for racing. Unless you are on a sailboat.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

The best way to figure this out since money is no object is to charter one for a few weeks and sail it on a short voyage, then you will actually know if you can or cant. There is not one person here who can tell you what you can do, only you know that


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