# "Paying" friends wanting to go on the boat.



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

It's been mentioned and asked of me a few times, usually after I go off ranting how hurt and angry I am about my situation of not being able to afford to keep me, my life, house, and boat Like I did when I got the boat almost 10 yrs ago. 

"Denise; why don't you just take people out on your boat and have them pay you for the day, weekend, trip, etc?" 

I usually mumble something like "I would need a captain's license to do that." 

I actually don't know this and wonder, now that I'm looking at the winter and lots of time to decide if I want to sell or find a way to at least break even with keeping her on the Chesapeake. I do quite well with other lady friends and many of them have suggested it's a cheap way to get away compared to motels hotels and driving long distance. Assuming I could find a way to get the word out, would I be breaking some kind of law? Basically the rational would be $ to offset the cost of having the boat for "guests"

I know the responsibility of things going wrong is great.. yet it's just as great with "just friends" on board too. 

I'm tending to think and feel it's a BAD idea because if it were that easy everyone would be doing it. 

Your input will be much valued on this friends!


----------



## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

I'd be more concerned about insurance than the CG. There may be an exclusion you are getting paid.
Sorry about the tight dollars (and friends)


----------



## krazzz (Jul 17, 2013)

Liveaboard? Kill two birds with one stone?


----------



## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

deniseO30 said:


> It's been mentioned and asked of me a few times, usually after I go off ranting how hurt and angry I am about my situation of not being able to afford to keep me, my life, house, and boat Like I did when I got the boat almost 10 yrs ago.
> 
> "Denise; why don't you just take people out on your boat and have them pay you for the day, weekend, trip, etc?"
> 
> ...


Don't know your local laws but would be careful about liability issues, especially if you have any assets. If someone formally "pays" you, other than with sandwiches and beer, and can prove it, it may put you in a vulnerable position, possibly voiding your liability insurance, especially if you are in non-compliance with local or Coast Guard rules or laws.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a "free lunch". 

Paul T


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Yes, you need to have a captain's license ("Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessels License" specifically) to accept payment to take people out on your boat.

Without that I think your only legal option would be to put the boat into a charter fleet.


----------



## avenger79 (Jun 10, 2009)

there are many ways around laws dealing with this -- UNTIL -- someone gets hurt, overboard etc. suddenly your friend is no longer a "yeah dude it's all cool" kind of person. You have no legal way to ensure they won't sue you for liable (their first statement being "she was operating illegally as a captain") because than they would have proof you were paid and on and on. 


a lot of laws I'm willing to bend but not one where I have to count on others to remain on my side. It never works out. 

are there other options, sell a share of the boat?


----------



## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

What about AirBnB? Plenty of people appear to have their boats listed as informal hotel rooms. See for example:

https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/629731


----------



## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

I noticed a story in the local boat paper that a marina was cracking down on boat owners who were advertising the use of their boat as a bed and breakfast . When he finds them, their out . The owner that is . There is a boat owner in my marina that takes people out for a inner bay wine and cheese cruise . He has a six pack license , insurance , alcohol license, and he had to pay for and take a food handling class . He also has some kind of deal with the marina ie. he pays a extra fee to the city . IMO if you are going to charge a customer for the use of your boat in any way . You will need to do it properly ( licenses, insurance ) Plus you should talk to the marina manager . IMHO


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Denise,

The law on this is a little unclear since the have been relatively few cases dealing with is since the USCG published a clarification a few years ago. However the simple answer is that if someone contributes a pro rata share towards the cost of the trip, it does not count as commercial operation. In other words, a guest can pay their share of the cost of fuel, provisions, slippage (if while on the trip you stay at a marina), ect. However the moment a dime more than this is handed to the skipper, it becomes a commercial undertaking , and you need a OUPV license, and commercial insurance. 

Note that this should not be taken as legal advice, and there is no attorney client relationship formed by this response.


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Connecticut sailing charters, Long Island Sound Sailing, sail lessons, yacht charters, birthday celebration, sailing school, captain for hire, yacht delivery, boat handling

This lady does exactly what you are proposing.
I've sailed with her. She may be willing to let you know what the options are.


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Denise,
Dave Basile runs a successful charter business out of Forked River on Barnegat Bay with a 35 Irwin. I don't know Dave well, only to say hello in the bar but he seems like a nice guy who would be approachable.

He would be able to tell you exactly what you can and cannot do and what you'd need in terms of licensing and insurance and what the financial realities are. I know he's very happy doing the charters.

His web site is Jersey Coastal Adventures ~ Sail The Forked River & Barnegat Bay, NJ.

Jim


----------



## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

It depends if you intend to run a buisness or just share costs.

Just sharing the cost is perfectly leagal as long as you are not making a profit.
It can be a big problem if you fudge it.

best to speak to your insurance broker. explain what you intend to do.
i would think you would be ok with the following.
Don't adertise. Just take people you know.
Figure a rough break down of fuel, food, beverages, and aditional cost for visiting marinas.
Divide by no of persons and each chips in.
if you have agroup of regular friends.
you can even split your home mooring costs.
and possibly get help with maintainance
without actualy running a buisness or voiding your insurance.

personaly I don't. I do apreciate it when friends bring a nice bottle of malt. some offer to pay for fuel but I dont burn much.


----------



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

How about sailing into the middle of your water way, then dropping all sails and as you bob around, pass around the donation plate. After the plate is full, raise the sails and continue on.

I would also worry about liability issues. In the past I have taken people sailing whom I have only known for a short time, or maybe just met (I do not charge, or ask or take donations). I have become more concered about doing this as I am concerned what happens if they get hurt. I know some of these folks have no health insurace.


----------



## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

A Cautionary Tale:

Catamaran sinks near Miami Seaquarium


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Uricanejack said:


> you can even split your home mooring costs.


Your mileage may vary but this may be crossing the line and put you into a commercial venture.

If you have close friends you may be able to sell partnerships but that would require an attorney.

Another guy to talk to is:
http://www.havencharters.com/

I've chartered from them. This way the legality is well defined.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Is getting your six-pack out of the question? I suspect the bump in insurance would not be insignificant, so you would have to be willing to run a few just to break even. 

Personally, I've dabbled over the years in getting paid for some of the things I just enjoy doing. It always ruined them.


----------



## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Personally, I've dabbled over the years in getting paid for some of the things I just enjoy doing. It always ruined them.


Never try to turn your hobby/sport/recreation into a paying job....

It'll just force you to find a new hobby, sport or recreational activity...


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Splitting your normal marina berth would require some pretty serious math to keep from crossing the line to commercial operation. I don't know of any interpretation on this from the USCG, but there is a parallel case from the FAA involving an aircraft. The decision is basically that you can ascribe 1/365th of your annual slip cost for each day your friend is with you, then divide this by the number of people who are on the boat that day... Then bill them for that amount.


----------



## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

deniseO30 said:


> It's been mentioned and asked of me a few times, usually after I go off ranting how hurt and angry I am about my situation of not being able to afford to keep me, my life, house, and boat Like I did when I got the boat almost 10 yrs ago.
> 
> "Denise; why don't you just take people out on your boat and have them pay you for the day, weekend, trip, etc?"
> 
> ...


went through that with some attorney friends. They all agreed there is nothing wrong with requiring guests to pay expenses. You just cant charge them a fee or rate without a license. Just figure out what your expenses are then divide it up however you wish. That will insure you incur no out of pocket expenses for the trip.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

thanks everyone! It's pretty much what I already guessed.. Just taking friends out on your boat implies your the captain and responsible for them. paying or not.


----------



## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

deniseO30 said:


> thanks everyone! It's pretty much what I already guessed.. Just taking friends out on your boat implies your the captain and responsible for them. paying or not.


yes, but no license needed unless you are for hire. friends can pay expenses


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

If money changed hands the courts may say' Passengers' Not good and friendships tend to vaporize in the presence of lawyers. You're responsible as captain and the insurance co has just bowed out. If friend 'charters' the vessel he/she becomes temporary owner and is totally responsible even if he hires you to skipper. If he collects a share from friends they become passengers. Not good. In Canada ,the vessel must be CSI for overnight passengers to allow B and B type activity so no go there either. Day sailing also requires CSI along with the usual 60 ton/60 pass minimum captains ticket and insurance and local business license. Vessel requirements break at over /under 15 tons and 12 pass.Things like inflatable covered life raft and CO2 fire suppression and water tight bulkheads and life jackets (not PFDs) and major flood control systems and remote fuel shutoffs ad nausea are just part of annual inspection and every 4 years they want to see rudder and prop shaft and all the thru hulls on a table. Then there is the megger test and CG test of dsc radio etc and annual raft refit. Miss something? No CSI and its just a private yacht.


----------



## mattt (Aug 26, 2013)

I'm not a lawyer, and this is probably not good advice, but if your "friends" are really actual friends and not a euphemism for customers, maybe you could work out a cash deal that doesn't involve soliciting the advice of strangers on the Internet and no one's the wiser? 

Remember, I'm not a lawyer, and this is probably not good advice.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

They say the first ship to sink is a partnership. However, if you can find that rare partner that splits the bills and you get along with, it seriously reduces cost. Especially on a sailboat, where there are very few variable costs.

If you go this route, this is my strongest advice. The first thing you must agree to and have in writing is how to get out of the partnership. IOW, how to buy out your partner without any fuss or muss, you just follow the previously agreed upon process and its done. No talking about it, no voting on it, no negotiating price, just do this and that and its done.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Denise-

Let's set aside the charter/pay question for a moment, and just look at reducing your expenses so that you can keep the boat.

1. How far do you drive to reach the boat now?
2. Where are you, and where is the boat?
3. Have you considered shifting to a mooring ball? It might be cheaper.
4. How do you feel about living aboard?

I know you have a serious aversion to high heat and humidity, but as an HVAC person, I know that you know, that you can put A/C on the boat in the summer.


----------



## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

On the sharing the costs thing, if one itemized each and every expense of owning a boat, including depreciation, and divides it by actual usage, the cost per hour could be quite substantial. I'd imagine most people would think they were making a nice profit. 

Before jumping in, I would contact my insurance company to see where they draw the line. Then I'd contact the CG and see where they draw the line. And before I decided to go ahead with the plan, I'd have all that in writing before accepting the first passenger.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Denise-
> 
> Let's set aside the charter/pay question for a moment, and just look at reducing your expenses so that you can keep the boat.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bubbles, 
My thread _was if_ I were able to get the boat down to Chesapeake bay. Currently I'm in a YC and all my expenses for the boat about a 1100 a yr. and even that is hard to make. Needing new sails (or used) new furler, fabric projects etc. money just isn't there anymore.


----------



## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

deniseO30 said:


> Thanks Bubbles,
> My thread _was if_ I were able to get the boat down to Chesapeake bay. Currently I'm in a YC and all my expenses for the boat about a 1100 a yr. and even that is hard to make. Needing new sails (or used) new furler, fabric projects etc. money just isn't there anymore.


Denise,

I'm not sure how you could beat that annual rate on the Chesapeake, even on a mooring.

Best of luck in whatever you decide.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Thanks Donna and it's why I just can't make down to the Chessy anymore.


----------



## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

deniseO30 said:


> Currently I'm in a YC and all my expenses for the boat about a 1100 a yr. and even that is hard to make. Needing new sails (or used) new furler, fabric projects etc. money just isn't there anymore.


If a couple hundred a month is taxing you, I'm sorry to say it's time to sell the boat....


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

or the house... new roof going on next week


----------



## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Denise - I hate to play the devils advocate, but perhaps your life conditions dont warrant boat ownership at this time. Would you consider selling your boat, saving the costs, then chartering or doing "Other Peoples Boats" until you're on better financial footing and can own your own boat again? Sailtime or just renting a boat by the day may be much cheaper depending on your boat usage pattern..


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I'm actually getting back to wooden boat building one way or another. I can afford the boat the way things are now but just barely, So yes It's time to sell most likely. My 10 plan to "live aboard" 10 years ago went down the drain and I got older. AND, I promised myself I would NOT become one of those "OLD" people that works and works on the boat and never goes anywhere with it!


----------



## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

As an old Charter Capt. lets go over the expenses to get a charter business started. If you go to Sea School and all associated costs to get your license : $1500. USCG requires it you are a boat for hire boat that you be registered/documented as a commercial vessel. That means commercial vests etc. My insurance was $1500 down at the start of the season and $125 per each 4 hour charter in addition to a regular physical damage and liability policy. 

The best way to make a boat pay, is use it as an office for a personal business and write off the expenses.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Hey Denise,

I am in the same boat as you, so to speak, in that I am finding it hard to justify the continuing outlay for the boat. My costs are a lot higher (~$6K/year) for marina and storage. You have seen several of the threads in which I have documented the maintenance and upgrades to the boat, which also run about $5K/year. Unlike you, however, I was let go from my job in early 2013. 

My house with a pool and a yard was eating me alive as well. If I could, I would live aboard tomorrow, but the admiral will not hear of it. The kids are grown and gone, so we really didn't need 4 bedrooms. The admiral agreed, and we sold the house this past summer, and bought a 2 BR condo. I don't have to fix the roof, the heating system, the lawnmower or the pool. The taxes are lower, and the condo fee is about ½ what the monthly upkeep on the house was. In addition, because I'm not doing all the work at home, I have more time for the boat!

I got my OUPV Inland license in March of this year. It was just something that I wanted to do for myself. Total cost was about $1400. To date, I've not made a dime from it. I did tell my insurance (BoatUS) that I got my ticket, and they gave me a 10% discount.

A friend, who knows my situation, suggested that I should advertise on CraigsList, and take people out. The same friend said that he and his wife took a "dolphin cruise" in Florida. The captain met them at the dock, took them for a lovely 4 hr cruise, brought them back to the dock, asked how they liked the cruise, and - after he received glowing compliments - he THEN had him sign a contract, and presented him with a bill. I suspect that if there were complaints, or incidents, there would have been no bill, no contract, and they would have been "guests."

Oh, and when I took that same friend for a sail this summer, they made no offer to help with expenses...


----------



## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

What about doing some lessons? I did a 'Family and Friends' ASA lesson. This included a couple of days on the boat. The owner kept his boat in very good shape. The money he made from lessons helped to ofset the cost of the boat.


----------



## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

You mentioned getting back to boat building and that will certainly keep you on the water. How about building a smaller boat? I know that we're all in love with this idea of living aboard and following the sun, but it can sometimes be a drag dealing with all the non-sailing stuff of boat ownership. And the idea about having people pay?.. you're basically proposing setting up a business and you already know what's involved with that. 

Maybe a trailerable day sailor is an option. When you want to go sailing, go sailing and forget all the other "stuff". My wife and I are creeping in this direction. We're thinking about ditching the big boat and buying a small 20' sport boat that we can campaign locally.

Or hook up with a race boat. You could easily sail 2-3 days a week and get a pretty good workout in the process.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I just had a thought-

Denise, rent out your house and move aboard the boat. That way you can keep the house, and move back if you decide that living aboard isn't for you. You might even make a small profit, depending on what you can charge for rent.


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Denise - you can come sailing with me anytime you like. Janet and I have enjoyed speaking with you (and learning) on the occasions we have met. You can stay aboard night before and after we go sailing. Just bring your own towels and linens - I have blankets and pillows.


----------



## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

I watch SoCal CL all the time and I'm amazed at the number of sailboat partnerships for sale. Anywhere from 2 people to 8 with 4 being the most popular.

If you could just find one person, and the right person, you costs would be cut in half and you would each get every other weekend rights...


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

seems to me the best route would be to set up some sort of "limited partnership" for a period of time. Just make sure there is an escape clause for everyone.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I feel the love! I had one thought, have friends that basically just come on the for expenses . and if they want to learn to sail, a sailing instructor can come on the boat for one on one teaching? I know women like that more then men. Jus wonnering  
thanks all!


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I just had a thought-
> 
> Denise, rent out your house and move aboard the boat. That way you can keep the house, and move back if you decide that living aboard isn't for you. You might even make a small profit, depending on what you can charge for rent.


Now if you can do this, and maintain use of your wood shop. I know you don't want to give up the workshop. Likely the thing keeping you from moving into a condo as well unless you can get access to the maintenance shop.

But if you want to sell, let me know!  I know you have done some nice work on her.


----------



## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

miatapaul said:


> seems to me the best route would be to set up some sort of "limited partnership" for a period of time. Just make sure there is an escape clause for everyone.


The legit ones I see are LLC's


----------



## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Denise, maybe we need to get a few other people in the same situation, buy a small motel close to the harbor that has kitchenettes in the rooms, and a pool , and we can build a *BIG* workshop out back.


----------



## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

Capt Len said:


> If money changed hands the courts may say' Passengers' Not good and friendships tend to vaporize in the presence of lawyers. You're responsible as captain and the insurance co has just bowed out. If friend 'charters' the vessel he/she becomes temporary owner and is totally responsible even if he hires you to skipper. If he collects a share from friends they become passengers. Not good. In Canada ,the vessel must be CSI for overnight passengers to allow B and B type activity so no go there either. Day sailing also requires CSI along with the usual 60 ton/60 pass minimum captains ticket and insurance and local business license. Vessel requirements break at over /under 15 tons and 12 pass.Things like inflatable covered life raft and CO2 fire suppression and water tight bulkheads and life jackets (not PFDs) and major flood control systems and remote fuel shutoffs ad nausea are just part of annual inspection and every 4 years they want to see rudder and prop shaft and all the thru hulls on a table. Then there is the megger test and CG test of dsc radio etc and annual raft refit. Miss something? No CSI and its just a private yacht.


you have overlooked the option of friends paying the expenses. This has nothing to do with chartering or charging fees its just simply the same as asking your neighbor to give you a ride to the marina and you give him gas money. You are not"chartering" his car and services you are simply volunteering to pay the expenses of his giving you a ride. If someone saks to go on a cruise with you and offers to pay expenses whats the difference?


----------



## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Denise, and others:

I shall stay away from the lifestyle-type issues (regarding which all the best), but since many seem interested, here's the text of the Coast Guard reg. which allows passengers to contibute voluntarily to voyage expenses without becoming "passengers for hire":

BoatSafe.com

the key language, which tells you what is NOT "compensation", is:

"...not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies." Additionally, employees or business clients that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale or entertainment purposes, are not considered as an exchange of consideration."

and, here's a simple explanation of what it takes to apply for, and obtain, a 6-passenger license as Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessels:

http://www.edba.com/captains/USCG Lic new PDF/USCG general info.pdf

I hope these take some of the mystery and wonder out of the process.

Years ago I bought a prep book for around 40 bucks, filled in my own application, got a physical, and went to a Coast Guard office and took the exam (mine was 100-ton master, so I would think the 6 pack would be simpler). Nowadays the equivalent is an online course, like this:

Mariner Advancement Ab License

for 80 bucks. the only barrier to doing this might be the scarcity of Coast Guard offices who give the test. I, living in New Orleans, am lucky in that regard. Are you lucky? This list of exam centers will tell you:

NMC Regional Examination Centers Page

If you're not "lucky", then the schools are well worth the money, since you can take the test without travelling. If however you are in a "Regional Exam Center city", then I don't see why you'd spend the bucks--if you can navigate an auxiliary sailboat, you can navigate the Coast Guard bureaucracy, which has become more user-friendly, especially for on-line applicants, and you can schedule and take your exam in person. The Only truly burdensome thing is the lengthy medical exam form (they got burned publically by the Staten Island ferry and Bay Bridge accidents where overmedicated mariners made their medical screening for licenses look frail, so they have *really* tightened up on this) you and your doc will have to navigate, but the online instructions are clear and comprehensive. Just figure on two doc appointments--one for the physical itself, and one to have Doc fill out and sign the form. But I think you'll have to do that yourself anyway, even if you go to a school.

I have run on here. But don't be scared of the process for getting licensed--if you have the sea time, and can pass the physical, then you can do it.


----------



## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

If the boat is clean, operable and reliable, you may be able to sell 2 or 3 seasonal shares for it.


----------



## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

As JP Morgan said " If you have to ask the cost, you can't afford it."
I would rather eat dog food than ask a friend to chip in.
It's that crude.
Dick


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Not only crude, but insufficient to make a dent.

If all you can ask guests to voluntarily pay is the actual costs incurred during the trip, then you can't ask for depreciation, maintenance, repairs, slip fees, launch/haulout, upgrades, etc. The vast majority of costs on a sailboat are these things, and unless you can amortize them into the costs of a trip, you're not going to come close to having friends cover your costs. It might be different on a big power cruiser that burns 20 gallons an hour, but not on a sailboat.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Then I've had friends arrive completely empty handed. Not ever water


----------



## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

All the better for you to be the gracious hostess.


----------



## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

nolatom said:


> Denise, and others:
> 
> I shall stay away from the lifestyle-type issues (regarding which all the best), but since many seem interested, here's the text of the Coast Guard reg. which allows passengers to contibute voluntarily to voyage expenses without becoming "passengers for hire":
> 
> ...


that's interesting. So as you answer questins they are removed from the list and you can take them over and over as long as you like. So you cant fail unless you just plain give up...opps, this is just the prep course then you gotta go take the test at a coast guard station right?


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

You know if I was asked Denise's original question twenty odd years back I would have almost certainly said go for it and to hell with the naysayers. Nearly every cruiser I knew back used to take on paying crew wth no legal right to do so and no one gave a tinkers damn.

In today's insanely litigious world ? No freaking way.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

tdw hit the nail on the head about excessive litigation. There is no way I would take a "friend" out with any debate as to whether it was for profit. 

I often wonder about the same issue: house or boat? I could easily rent my house to skiers when out sailing but really do not want vacationing idiots trashing the house. All I can say regarding being able to afford sailing when retired without a trust fund is that the way I make it work is by doing without things like eating out, going to the local pub, or other unnecessary expenditures, fixing my own stuff, avoiding debt like the plague, separating need from want, and planning my budget WAY out ahead.

The issue of a little extra income is a tough one. Wood boat building is a possibility I have considered but the market for custom wood boats is really non-existent in the "new economy." This, like anything done for profit, almost has to suck you into a full time business, including marketing, insurance, etc., etc., etc. ad infinitum in order for it to work. That invariably takes the joy out of it. Not only that, but anything made by hand is now made in China by people working for fifty cents an hour. I found that out building violins and guitars. There is just no way to compete as an American craftsman, another result of "globalism." Have you though about doing work on other people's boats? 

I disagree with those who would recite the "you can't afford it" rhetoric. If you really want to do something, there is always a way. Best of luck with it.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

tdw said:


> You know if I was asked Denise's original question twenty odd years back I would have almost certainly said go for it ...In today's insanely litigious world ? No freaking way.


I'd say concern about litigation risk is a valid reason in itself, but there is also real risk of civil or criminal penalties:

Coast Guard, Illinois officials crack down on illegal charter boats - Professional Mariner - Web Exclusive 2012

Note the part in the news report where the vessel has been confiscated...


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

All being said.. it's a fine line, and just having friends on the boat means liability. Friends sharing expenses could be just enough to help me keep the boat on the Chessey. I can lie about my age.. It doesn't make me younger.  The hot summers and my growing intolerance for heat. The shortness of the season, the distance from the Bay. all eroded the passion I had for sailing my boat and actually using it for cruising. I know this, I will NOT be one of those old people that fixes and fixes a boat and never goes anywhere. 

Where do I find written examples of fractional ownership?


----------



## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

A point about friends "turning'' on you. If insurance companies get involved, they can sue without input from the injured party.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

deniseO30 said:


> ...
> Where do I find written examples of fractional ownership?


Here is one:
https://sailtime.com/

I can't speak for other locations, but as someone who has done charter work for the Boston business, that franchise has a very first-rate program utilizing young boats that are very well-maintained.


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Back in the '70's when my boat started to pay for itself, it became obvious one had to be in or illegal. The feds were just becoming aware of the potential problems of casual chartering and set up enforceable rules for small boats. One aspect of chartering was that most of my friends couldn't to bring a flat of beer to the party let alone throw money in the kitty.That left the general public and tourists as targets for financial success.That made it commercial .Apart from the costs of running the gauntlet of bureaucracy ,just answering the phone is a full timer. Internet has become a great asset but that takes time too. So now it's about employees,accountant,webpage designers . I do all the maintenance on Thane and still get to enjoy sailing local waters. A bit limiting in coastal cruising but I built a small boat in Thailand to make up for it. So,regarding the pro/con of making a buck with a boat, it can be done and with considerable satisfaction.It can also be an expensive failure. (I hear that there were at least six boaters on Saltspring Island in court for charter day fishing) Shows it's better to do it right or stay home. For me, home is here in Lotus Land.


----------



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

When I first bought my boat, I was looking into getting a 1/2 partner. Talked to some of the boat owners at my harbor and there comment was "it never works out". I never went the partner route as I am sure it would not work out. Say the partner over heats the engine due to a clogged raw water strainer. Say the engine's head is warped and you are looking at a $4,000 dollar repair. Will you and the partner split the cost? Will you ask the partner to pay the full $4,000? Say the partner runs the boat around and then get off, and never tells you about it, or the potential damage? There may be "good" honest partners out there, but probably few and far between.

I also thought about getting 6 pack license, but have no time to deal all the marketing and legal issues. On top of that, most tourist these days are real demanding. Had one freind that did the charter business and he got out as the tourist insisted he chase the humpback whales in order to get a good pic.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Here's someone who should have read this tread...

VIDEO: Cat sinking spurs questions


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

denise-
Something many people overlook is that when the USCG says guests may "contribute", contributions are always voluntary. Museums found this out the hard way, if they are required to let the public in (because they receive public funding) then they are also required to let them in even if someone does not want to "contribute" the suggested donation. Ditto for "guests", if the arrangement is that they can and shall pay you--that's not a voluntary contribution.
The big bugaboo here in the US is of course litigation and liability. A passing boat throws a wake, your guest busts a rib on the cabin table, guess who's going to get the bill? Or they slip in the companionway. And anyone else, like your insurer, will say gee, no, we didn't write a commercial policy.
Now some folks have skirted that, they say "Oh, my friend was..." and get away with the fraud, which is what it is. Depends on how you feel about these things and how your karma is.

Odds are that you have enough logged days on the water to go for a six-pack, and the "knowledge" is probably something you're already 95% up on anyhow. Airbnb and similar operations are actually negotiating with tax men all over right now, and the bottom line on that is that "recreational" innkeepers are going to wind up conforming to some rules and paying regular taxes and such, pretty much all over, pretty much soon. 

But if you can figure out a business plan...or a compromise that doesn't give you worries...And of course, if you don't mind dealing with the public and all sorts of strangers making demands on you or your boat. Or your spare bedroom.


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

sailingfool said:


> I'd say concern about litigation risk is a valid reason in itself, but there is also real risk of civil or criminal penalties:
> 
> Coast Guard, Illinois officials crack down on illegal charter boats - Professional Mariner - Web Exclusive 2012
> 
> Note the part in the news report where the vessel has been confiscated...


Thoroughly agree but once upon a time such informal arrangements were not of any concern for the authorities. I'm talking about talking on one or two people as paying crew or even students. If you started a regular tour operation in an out of survvey vessel and without the correct licenses then on your own head be it though twenty, thirty years back even operations of that type were often ignored .... unless the boat sank.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I gotta say y'all sure can take a topic and run it out a a tangent! 

It all comes down to friends wanting to help defray the costs of them using or going on your boat. I'm sure most of us don't think our friends are out to get us when we go on a "3 hour tour" but yes.. it's possible for anyone to "turn" on you. boat, car, hell even sitting down to dinner and someone chokes on a chicken bone! 

My YC dues are paid for the year. So I'm good until next year this time. Hopefully find a way to get friends interested in having access to a boat on Chesapeake Bay. Or sell, I'm kind of sad that the passion for sailing seems to have lost it's flavor.


----------



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

deniseO30 said:


> I gotta say y'all sure can take a topic and run it out a a tangent!
> 
> It all comes down to friends wanting to help defray the costs of them using or going on your boat. I'm sure most of us don't think our friends are out to get us when we go on a "3 hour tour" but yes.. it's possible for anyone to "turn" on you. boat, car, hell even sitting down to dinner and someone chokes on a chicken bone!
> 
> My YC dues are paid for the year. So I'm good until next year this time. Hopefully find a way to get friends interested in having access to a boat on Chesapeake Bay. Or sell, I'm kind of sad that the passion for sailing seems to have lost it's flavor.


What the heck... Sometimes it is best just to move on. Interest change, we change, and life moves on. Sometimes it's best to leave your boyfriend/girlfriend, wife, job, house, apartment, boat, or town you live in. But your dog, never leave your dog....


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

deniseO30 said:


> I......I'm kind of sad that the passion for sailing seems to have lost it's flavor.


That stinks. Reducing the cost isn't going to fix that.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

deniseO30 said:


> My YC dues are paid for the year. So I'm good until next year this time. Hopefully find a way to get friends interested in having access to a boat on Chesapeake Bay. Or sell, I'm kind of sad that the passion for sailing seems to have lost it's flavor.





Minnewaska said:


> That stinks. Reducing the cost isn't going to fix that.


Well I think this is the root. I think since it will not cost a lot more to keep the boat for the year, keep at it. You may just be hitting a lull in your enthusiasm. I for one would miss you around here as I think you makes some excellent posts. You do seem to have a real passion for sailing, perhaps it was just a bad season? Your area seemed to have a rough season as there were a lot of posts of floating debris, and there was some strange weather. Seems to me too that it may not really be cost but a waning of interest. I do have to say I am very impressed with your wood work, perhaps that is taking over the sailing bug? May just be temporary, may be permanent. Only time will tell but give it the fair chance of time, as you have a nice boat and I know you would miss her.


----------



## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

sailingfool said:


> I'd say concern about litigation risk is a valid reason in itself, but there is also real risk of civil or criminal penalties:
> 
> Coast Guard, Illinois officials crack down on illegal charter boats - Professional Mariner - Web Exclusive 2012
> 
> Note the part in the news report where the vessel has been confiscated...


talk about the land of the free, the freedom part has been slowly slipping away since the day the declaration of independence was signed. Every year we put 5000 new laws on the books with almost none removed each of which seems harmless but each in fact chips away at our individual freedom. All done to use for our own good, so they say.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

D-,

Regarding getting a co-owner. I had though of this myself; but, I want things on my boat done my way. I do all my own maintenance, and I did not want to be chasing a partner down about oil changes, or electrical work, and I wouldn't want it done without me. 

Put another way; I decided that for me, half of a boat, would not float.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

wow.. guys.. I'm not dying! LOL I'll never leave Sailnet either! Paul thank you for the compliments too! 
I've really been making lots of sawdust the last few days and I'm feeling better about things. Apparently woodworking is good therapy!


----------



## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

This will provide you with a host of information for boat sharing. Boat sharing software


----------



## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

eherlihy said:


> D-,
> 
> Regarding getting a co-owner. I had though of this myself; but, I want things on my boat done my way. I do all my own maintenance, and I did not want to be chasing a partner down about oil changes, or electrical work, and I wouldn't want it done without me.
> 
> Put another way; I decided that for me, half of a boat, would not float.


you got it:clobber


----------

