# Boat for kids



## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Our Harbor Master is interested in starting a youth sailing program. They are interested in getting 4-6 small boats to start out. Boats need to be big enough to carry 1, maybe 2 kids and 1 adult. Something drier than a Sunfish. small, but big enough the adult isn't sitting on the bottom with knees in arm-pits. All sailing would be in well protected harbor. Beach stored. They are thinking $1,000 ea. or under for decent used boats. Any ideas or suggestions on what boat you would recommend?????


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## bogdog (Sep 8, 2007)

Gezz TC, Even our Walker Bay 8' POS dingy that we used to get out to our boat when we had it on a pin, with out sailing gear, 10 years ago, was $600 to $700. Maybe you could check a few other sailing clubs to see if they had any used boats to get rid of. Too bad, I really love to see kids getting out there. I remember my boy scout camp in the 50s, having sailing available, thats what got me hooked. I've always been grateful. I'm looking forward to to my grandchildren learning young just like me. DS


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

I know, they don't have a lot of money to spend on this. (trying to build a new harbor) Need something that was mass produced and fairly common. Interested in what other clubs are using for this purpose.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

T34C,

Just a suggestion, but if the budget is tight, one way to get new boats is to have the kids build them themselves (in a program with adult supervision) from kits. If this option might be a consideration, I can highly recommend the Eastport Pram. They are simple, stable, learn-to-sail trainers, great tenders, and all-round lots of fun.

I wouldn't be surprised if CLC would negotiate a discount for a group purchase. Another way to spread out the costs is to hold-off on ordering the sailrigs until the hulls are completed. You could even spread it out over two summers. Build the hulls first summer, and let the kids learn to row. Next summer build the sailrigs. Maybe stitch the sails yourself with a Sailrite kit?

CLC Eastport Pram


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

T..I think a good boat for what you want is the SNIPE...

they are cheap if used, fast and competitive and parts are common..like Optimists

Google SNIPE..you'll be impressed...I raced those when I was 15

See one here


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

VERY GOOD HERE

See here more

I am sure that in one or days of web searching you can find many for $1000 with trailers


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Now that I re-read your requirements -- especially the part about 2 kids AND an adult in the boat -- the EPP would not be the best choice (although I feel it's best for young kids to learn either by themselves or with maybe one other kid in the boat -- with an adult nearby in a chase boat.) Also, there's something to be said for a "learn to build and sail" program.

The Snipe does look like a good candidate, if a bit wet. Lots of other similar designs here:

Vanguard Sailboats


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

check out Pico's. They might be a bit expensive for the budget you name but they have two big advantages to learn on. First, they are made of rotomolded plastic and you can literally sail them into the dock at full speed without breaking them. Second, they are sloop rigged and have most of the sail controls of a bigger boat (outhaul, cunningham, vang, only a rope traveller though) - I got a used one for my son to learn on and it was perfect. Lots of fun for me to sail too. Can fit two people, one adult and a kid or two kids. My son has had two buddies with him on it but that is a bit tight. They are MUCH faster than a sunfish or comparable boat.


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## mtboat (Oct 14, 2007)

*sailing club suggestion*

Just a thought, I live in Lakeside,Montana. The Lutheran Bible Camp on Flathead Lake has a program for kids to sail, and their boats were donations. They usually need some work, but they are free and they could afford to put a little cash into them. Plus they have a variety of boats, which allows for experiencing different types of boats. Of course you have to know how to put it over to the donor!


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> T..I think a good boat for what you want is the SNIPE...
> 
> they are cheap if used, fast and competitive and parts are common..like Optimists
> 
> ...


I also sailed Snipes at summer camp when I was a kid. Certainly a good boat to learn on. We had four, (red, green, blue, and yellow). All were hand-made by the maintenance guy for the camp during the off season. All were wood, with wood spars. Some had cotton sails. They sailed well, were responsive, and could handle 4 kids easily.

A downside to the Snipe (at least the ones we had), were that they weren't inherently self-rescuing.

Capsize one, and you've got a lot of bailing to do!

I think it's important that you can acquire identical boats for the kids. It makes maintenance and training easier. Racing is better that way too.

Of course, the down side of teaching kids to sail, is that they are likely to remain "boat poor" for the rest of their lives!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

djodenda said:


> ......Of course, the down side of teaching kids to sail, is that they are likely to remain "boat poor" for the rest of their lives!


Hey - that's THEIR problem... why should they have it any better that we do??


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

CL 14's are great school boats. Sailboats Online 
Used here: boat for sale

Maker is still in business so parts are readily available.



> CL 14
> Yellow hull. Good condition. Ready to sail. Good rigging and sails. New rudder & center board. Trailer available.
> CDN $1,450
> (705) 534-4050
> ...


Flying Juniors as excellent as well. Club Flying Junior, FJ Parts, Sails, Covers and Boats

Thay have been around long enough that you should be able to find plenty of good used ones.


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## southerncross31 (Sep 16, 2006)

I agree with the idea of having them build them. Get them to turn off the tv and xbox and help out. How much more pride and fulfillment will they feel if they are sailing boats they build!!! Besides the cost of most small boats is well under 1k. They can even sew the sails and learn all aspects of the rigging. So many kids are lost these days, with parents too busy to give them enough knowledge and attention!


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I'll toss in a vote for pursuing some Snipes. they're still commonly found in the midwest and they're also a boat that kids can grow up in and not outgrow.

In the category of build your own, you probably remember these guy's offerings from the boat show. Passagemaker Dinghy Rowing Sailing Boat Kits Plans - Chesapeake Light Craft


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I love JohnPollards idea. My kids are going to build their own boats over the next 2 years, sew the sails and sail them together. I learned to sail in Sprites, which I think was an O'Day product? I may be wrong on that. Fun, fairly dry little boat IIRC. Probably out of production.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Thanks for the great suggestions! Keep 'em coming.

I love the build your boat idea, but I don't think it is practical this time around. We don't currently have a group of kids to work with. Taking the, get the boats and they will come, approach. Hoping to hire a college student as the "sailing instructor" for summers and don't have anyone available at this time to head-up/supervise a build project. I think it would be a good addition in the future.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> T..I think a good boat for what you want is the SNIPE...
> 
> they are cheap if used, fast and competitive and parts are common..like Optimists
> 
> ...


G- I think the Snipe is a very good idea. How well do they sail with Main alone? Could you start smaller kids in a Snipe w/o jib?


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

sailaway21 said:


> In the category of build your own, you probably remember these guy's offerings from the boat show. Passagemaker Dinghy Rowing Sailing Boat Kits Plans - Chesapeake Light Craft


Sailaway,

You are a man of fine taste. We are HUGE fans of CLC's PassageMaker Dinghy (aka "PMD" -- in fact we built one, many photos of which you can see at your link above.)

However, the PMD is quite a bit more expensive and a fair bit more involved to build than the CLC Eastport Pram that I linked to earlier in this thread. The PMD is a good tender for a larger boat, and a great "expedition-style" sailing dinghy (by which I mean it is suitable for longer exploratory excursions, even camp cruising, for instance.) But it is more complex to rig, and requires a bit more skill to sail. Probably overkill for a harbor sailing program.

I suggested CLC's Eastport Pram because it is smaller, lighter, cheaper, and simpler. But if the requirement to hold 2 kids and an adult is firm, the PMD would be a good choice for a "build and sail" program. I should also note that while both have tremendous positive floatation, neither design meets the "self-bailing" test. That said, our PMD is tremendously stable and has never flipped, but we do keep a bailing bucket handy.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

T-34C,
I volunteer to be your summer sailing instructor! All I need is 10k per month and full bennies, and I am your man! No stock options required. What harbor are you in?


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

We are in lovely Egg Harbor, WI







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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Sorry Bardo- not letting me post a photo today for some reason.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Yeah, I am not getting images on sailnet today either. I could do Egg Harbor. Oh, did I mention that I will need housing (by the harbor of course) for me and my family? Thanks and I look forward to getting a contract in the mail.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

I assume a nice 4-5 bedroom, waterfront of course, in the range of 3000 sq/ft would be OK?????


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Acceptable, but 3500 would be better. And with one of those disappearing horizon pool thingies please. I'm packing as we speak.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Please forward your check for $3,200,000 and I'm sure we can secure suitable lodging. Putting together the contract now, just waiting on your "deposit".


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

T34C said:


> G- I think the Snipe is a very good idea. How well do they sail with Main alone? Could you start smaller kids in a Snipe w/o jib?


I used to singlehand Snipes when I weighed less than 80 lbs.. I don't think this is an issue.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

djodenda said:


> I used to singlehand Snipes when I weighed less than 80 lbs.. I don't think this is an issue.


I was more concerned about younger kids not having to worry about trimming 2 sails.


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## thesnort (Jun 2, 2007)

If you're looking for just a mainsail on a dinghy, you might like the indestructible (almost) Escapes: 2007 Escape 12 Sail Boat
I don't remember what they're priced, but you can probably pick some up used at a relatively good deal.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Penguin, perhaps?*

There is an old class of sailboats -

Penguins -penguinclass.com They were a home built class that transitioned to fiberglass. sets of plans are still availible. Single sail with plenty of freeboard.
if this ad for a sold boat (sailingtexas.com/spenguina. html) then they are about in your price range


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## Plumper (Nov 21, 2007)

We run a very successful sailing school for young folks and we use Optimists. We don't put adults in the boats with the kids. That is probably why the kids like it so much. The supervisors are in inflatables with motors.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Family sailboat for teaching*

The Lido 14 by wd schock is an excellant boat for carrying an adult with the kids or two to 4 kids by themselves. Lido 14 Class Association
Prices for newer models 3500 + but older boats are well under 1000.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

lastconch said:


> The Lido 14 by wd schock is an excellant boat for carrying an adult with the kids or two to 4 kids by themselves. Lido 14 Class Association
> Prices for newer models 3500 + but older boats are well under 1000.


Thanks. Looks like it would be a good option. Not sure how many are in the midwest. Seems like most all of them listed for sale are in CA or TX.


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## bambam (Sep 25, 2005)

*I'll make it easy for you*

you can find many Lido 14's for sale around $1000 or under including trailer some less with out. these are boats that are as good for a beginer as they are for an advanced sailor. W.D Schock still builds Lido's and you can still get all parts for the older models. I cannpt think of a boat that will suit your needs better good luck and good sailing


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## PaulMcIsaac (Dec 24, 2004)

*Good training boats for a junior sailing program*

I faced a similar problem a few years back and can relay some of what I learned.

First and foremost, setting up a junior sailing program is difficult and time-consuming so, if your harbormaster is committed to the project, keep him happy and offer all the help you can.

After looking at various boats, we decided on the Optimist for obvious reasons, especially excellent local, regional, national, and international competition. As new boats were out of the question, I went to our annual provincial sailing meeting and asked around. It turned out that two significant yacht clubs were always trading up on their training boats and they came up with a way we could acquire 6 Optis between them. 
Although we had some financing in place, we looked around and found a fair number of local donors - from Parks & Rec to businesses to our national association (CYA) that tries to keep a kitty of loan money to help programs like ours purchase boats. One bank manager, a sailor himself, said the money ($1,500) and the decision to fund a boat was within his power. The secret seemed to be in finding locally successful businesses who could participate by contributing a predetermined sum and leaving the rest up to the organizers. Events could be run to promote the sport and recognize the sponsors at the same time.

The problem never materialized as I had hoped. We could not find any one person with the time and interest to manage the program. Instead, we invited the CYA to run one week of their mobile junior sailing program here last year. They are booked for two weeks this year.

Nevertheless, I still wander the docks of our town, looking at all the sailboats growing gardens on their bottoms, and think about the training programs we could put together using them - programs for all ages and all levels of ability!

Paul McIsaac
Powell River BC


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

I'm going to throw this out there and I will explain later. Would you use Optimists as kids sail training boats if there were no potential racing with them?


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

For young kids, yes. Kids older than about 12-13 may not be overly keen on them.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

EDIT: I'm going to update my response since no one else has chimed in. 

One thing about Opti's that is not ideal for beginners is their lack of built-in positive buoyancy. They require that buoyancy bags be fitted, which is a bit cumbersome and more maintanance than boats with fixed floatation. 

So, yes, an Opti would work, but it may not be the best choice. Built-in positive floatation is important, and self-bailing is also desirable (especially where the water is cold.) To achieve self-bailing, my preference is for the open-transom designs (e.g. JY-15) rather than the one-way scuppers found in some boats like Optis and Albacores, etc.


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## AlpineSailor (Nov 3, 2006)

S2 5.5 might be a good choice for sailing with an adult plus several kids. 
18ft, fractional rig with small headsail, probably sails well on main alone. Huge cockpit.

There's one on Ebay now in your neck of the woods.

eBay Motors: 1982 S2 5.5 Grand Slam (item 220223188332 end time Apr-18-08 14:00:16 PDT)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi T34C!!

I'm in a Yacht club in Western Australia and I would like to offer my opinion. Do you know sailing as a sport is diminishing in Australia and Western Australia? With our coastline and wind? Incredible! I have a view on why...

If you want kiddies to start sailing and STAY sailing, do NOT go for the Optimist or Laser class. Both, in my opinion, are ridiculous classes that have been giving far too much popularity and have cost many a kid their interest in sailing...only to join the ranks of the sailboards or kitesurfers. Here's why...the Optimist has no go-fasts. They have a sail like a rag that works fine except downwind when you have even a small sea. Any lack of vang control and you plunge the bow into the next wave and whammo, the boat starts taking water. No self bailers, just a bucket. Sure, the argument is that a kid needs to get the skill to manage that. Yep, I get that, but why have that as a feature of a intro class? Anyway, an Optimist is not a class to plonk an adult and a kid in. Unles the adult is smaller than a kid, that is.

Now the Lasers...sure they are an Olympic class and the (I'm guessing) largest class in the world. They have 3 sub classes (4.7, radial and full rig) to work through. They are big enough to be sailed with an adult and a kid. These boats were designed for lake use there the main is rolled up and the thrown in the shed and plonked back in the "hole in the deck" the next day. Upwind, they are OK unless the wind blows hard in which case they are very hard to luff because of the low aspect ratio sail. When you have the luff of the main backwinded and the back of the sail still sailing hard, the weather helm is enormous. Downwind, they are a pig and a challenging pig at that. They death roll, put the boom in the water and you are in the drink. If your wind never exceed 10 knots, they are great!

My question is...why make these boats to darn hard to sail? 

We have very few Snipes in Australia but I saw them when I was living in NJ. They are exactly the right class to go for. The other classes to go for are the Mirror (they would be at the top of my list with a gaff rigges main plus jib plus spinnaker) or the Taser (nothing like a Laser).

Trust these ramblings have been of some help!
Regards
Mike
ps...stay away from cats. They will make your kids lazy!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Velella995 said:


> Hi T34C!!
> 
> I'm in a Yacht club in Western Australia and I would like to offer my opinion. Do you know sailing as a sport is diminishing in Australia and Western Australia? With our coastline and wind? Incredible! I have a view on why...
> 
> ...


I think you must be drinking some really bad Australian wine.....really...what the hell are you talking about man???

If you want, I have the right person for you to talk about Optimists and Lasers...maybe your kids are quiting because that attitude you showed in the post....

The only right thing you said in the whole post was about the Snipes and the mirrors....there you're right.....


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Valella,

That is an interesting perspective. I think some of your criticisms of the Optis and Lasers have merit, but over here in North America, those classes are going strong. So they must be doing something right! 

I like the Mirror dinghies too. By the way, they recently approved a bermuda-rig option for the class and -- if you can forgive a nitpicky correction -- the original/standard rig is a sliding gunter. 

Welcome to SailNet! Cheers!


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Valella- Interesting perspective. I really don't think the Opti is the right boat either, though not for the same reasons, but may not have a choice in this. Jury is still out. What club in WA do you sail at?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

T34C, JRP...I think my criticism has been more distracting than helpful but all opinions should be welcome in such a forum. I will persist.

I'll not share the club I am in because we have many generous sponsors for Opis and it may be the kids who lose out if my view are mis-quoted. That said, within our club I have not been quiet about my opinions of Lasers. Our junior club is dominated by Optimists and Laser...as are clubs around Australia. My argument isn't that these classes are not successful. My argument is around the type of boat that starts and KEEPS kiddies sailing.

I have instructed many kids in sailing and one of the hardest thing to teach a young kid is boat control through luffing...having the sail sheeted in and steer for the tufts. Really really hard on an Opi because (again) of the low aspect ratio sail without a luff track. 

I don't subscribe to the "everyone's doing it...it must be good" school, although it's hard to take another tack when so much racing is dominated by these classes. When a class tends to dominate, in a small population such as ours, regattas focus on only a few classes. That means if you want to race, you comply. 

My daughter sails a 420 after moving out of 4.7 Lasers. Two years ago, I witnessed a group of kids, her included, in 4.7 Lasers who were simply unable to sail their boats in 20knts in a 3 foot wave on a 2 foot swell and all required rescue . These were not easy conditions but they should have been able to sail as they were quite experienced...but the physics of that class is so stacked against them. As I said, in light winds...terrific...but in stronger winds....

As a reminder, I'm replying inside a thread called "Boat for Kids"...not who is the best sailor or best class etc. Kids graduate through these classes...and some continue on to great levels of skill within the Laser class. Kudos to them. I had neither the patience nor desire to. I want every kid who starts sailing to be sea-competant and eventually pass on their skill once they get to be in their early 20's or before. 

I think the right clice of class for kids should include:
1) permenant boyancy
2) stayed mast, cat rigged
3) luff track on main
4) able to hold a 13 and a 9 year old boy (exit the Opis)
5) high aspect ratio main, battened full at least for the top 25% of the sail
6) curved gunnels into the cockpit so that all degrees of hiking out can be experienced
7) scuppers or self bailing capabilities

At the risk of being long winded, I ask the question again...why is sailing diminishing as a sport? I am sure it's the choice of boat. We are losing kids to sailboards and kite surfers, neither of which are capable of encouraging seamanship. I know junior 420 sailors who have stepped onto 30 foot yachts (with a tiller not a wheel) and handled them quite well...because they know the principles.

Mike
PS...thanks on the rig correction JRP. 
PPS...someone else replied but I think more than my argument was attacked so I'll leave it there.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Mike,

Sorry about my quick reply last night as I was heading off to bed. I see now that I failed to indicate that I agree with some of your observations, particularly those concerning the decline in sailing participation. However, I think, at least here in the U.S., that there are other reasons for this decline beyond the choice or availability of dinghies available to beginners for one-design sailing (such as changes in society and parenting). But that could easily be the topic for a whole new thread!!

I like the 420s as well. My own kids have learned in our sailing dingy/tenders, and at sailing camp in a boat called the JY15, which is similar to a 420 but less sporty and more stable. Over the years I've come to think that any boat which gets kids out on the water is a step in the right direction.

P.S. Welcome to SailNet!!


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Vele- Thanks for the persistence. And thanks for your thoughts on the subject. I agree with you in many ways. The principle of having a beginner start in a boat that is more sea worthy instead of less applies to all ages. It is one of my prime dislikes about some of our more production oriented boats in the US. They are great for a given set of conditions, but when the weather turns foul, well..... I know of a number of new sailors that have been scared away from the sport for this very reason. (Or their spouse has).

I only asked which club because I started sailing at South Perth YC.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Velella995 said:


> someone else replied but I think more than my argument was attacked so I'll leave it there.


Velella995, I appologize for being hard on you...I thought you were someone else that has a similar screen name, (myvelero) and thought that the person in cause was in Australia.

I did not see you were a new memember here either. Sorry for my rudness..I did not mean to do it. I swear. Sometimes I joke a lot and use some of that sarcasm in other posts.

If I had payed more attention I would have seen you are not who i thought you were.

Anyway, I hope you forgive me.

If you read the posts from the start, I was the first one to indicate the Snipe...I sailed them a lot before I moved to the 470's when i was famous (for 15 minutes)...

I still think that the fault is not the boats, as you mention...it's the adults behind the clubs, that insist on treating the kids like adults..you know for sure, if you are with kids and clubs, that finding a good coach willing to sacrifice his every weekend of a whole year to coach kids Saturday and sundays is hard...its either a guy with no life, or someone that may not be the best at sailing...that is the problem..lack of incentives...and then they start getting bored....the solution is to make them compete...make the feel the need to get better...and that is hard even if the kids are sailing skiffs or 49ers...

Granted, sailing for a teenager (unless he really loves it) can be borish, and in sailing like in many other sports, you get a lot of kids that quit...it happens in Hockey, soccer, etc...sailing is no different...the best stay and win, because they really like it (thus the stay), and get adicted to wining so they come back..the other ones...go somewhere else...maybe they weren't talented enough to keep up... it's almost like the Jungle law..only the strongest fitest win...that is the only way the sports evolves..otherwise...it will stagnate..

So having a slow sport, that can be quite boring, compared with almost unregulated wild stuff like Kite surfing and windsurfing, is almost unfare...but happens I know...

Oprtimists, lasers etc. do prepare the kids well because they are not easy to be sailed and or have flaws...we =want good prepared sailors...not easy saliling speed freaks that later in life can't bail out of a sinking America's cup, right???

I agree the imaginary boat you propose would be great, but the great siccess of Optis and laser is they are cheap...a boat like you propose in points 1 thru 7 would be cost prohibitive, so the clubs and poor people can't afford them...so in a way, that would be elitism, since only the rich would sail...and rich kids prefer other things..thus the popularity of Optis and lasers...they are cheap and most clubs can afford them...

I am happy my kid sails an Opti, in a way, the burden of bailing water is the punishment for capsizing, and losing it all...that makes him sail better and avoid capsizing...so he gets to be a good sailor...I also want him to learn the hard way...so later if he ever gets to go on the real "goodies" he can be good... This to say if the kids learn in hard boats, they will become better, and things are easier later in the better boats...remember the WWII pilots, they learnt to fly in the Tiger Moth, before they moved to the Spitfires...

They are trying to promote the BIC in my country..its a self bailing cool boat, all fast and modern...but the kids don't want them...my son's dream is a 470...(probably they are all over when he gets to be the age..but...)

By the way...where I come from...kids sail whters is sunny and nice or 10 foot waves and 30 knots blow...I had an Australian friend visit me here, and one day we had 10 to 15 foot waves, hurricanes and all, 35 knot winds...and the only people sailing were the laser kids....ask him if yoiu don't believe...

May be you need to push the kids more..give them incentives...

Again, sorry for the initial post, and please let's continue this argument...I am liking it..

Alex


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Alex...thanks for your reply. No problem at all I am sure. Of course..there is nothing to forgive.

I do like your perspective on yr kids Opi sailing...teaching them avoid filling up. But I glean from that you are one of the very involved parents that exude confidence towards your kids. Many kids are not that supported and I think those are the kids that are vulnerable to pull out. 

The other matter is the price. Personally I think, for what they are, Lasers and particularly Opi's are well overpriced. 

Oh I don't doubt your story about the Laser kids. If a kid persists in a Laser they get very very good at sailing any Cat rigged boat. Don't you think it's wierd that so few kids move into Contenders from Lasers? I mean if it's a cat rigged boat you are looking to follow, there's the top of the heap. No...it's the "large regatta" mentality that has people stay with classes like Hobies, Lasers and Opis. Huey didn't expect fleets of hundreds of thousands of one particular class. Really, that's a little ludicrous in my view. But look, now I am getting opinionated again.

Thanks for writing back Alex.
Mike


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Mike, thanks for the kindness towrds my mistake.

In my country the optis the lasers, the 420 etc.. are all supplied by the club...you only get a private boat IF you want, and that only for the kids in the high level racing...

My son will be competing National and European level starting in October..he could use a club's boat...but would be the only one...so he needs a new boat, not as an award, but because he needs a newer boat with newer mateirals...at that level, an Opti, costs in excess of 5000 euros complete with all accessories...I got him a super one, custom built for him (he doesn't know it yet) for less than $ 3800 complete. But that's because the dollar is low now...and I like Americans...

True, I as a person that sailed all my life, inflicted my passion on my kids since they were born, and both kids sailed within weeks of being born, so for them its a natural thing in the house...I do not get too much involved with his sailing and his coach..I let them be..and they both appreciate..HOWEVER..when I see the kid needs help or does something wrong, I pull him aside, and talk to him...

Other parents in the club are not sailing background people, but interestingly enough, some started sailing now because of their kids, and others, their kids like sailing more than one could imagine...

Like all sports, you end up with the good ones only...and those are the ones that commit their life, weekends and above all HAVE passion for it, no matter what boat...the quiters, well they go away...it was not the sports for them....that's the way it is...

Now...start losing the hi end competition kids, yes...I'd get worried....but those...we keep them coming....we reward them and incentivate them...


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

As a parent that had kids snow skiing competitively, what happens to some degree, that needs to also happen, as they grow up, and they fall to the wayside if you will, for not being good enough etc in competition, is to make sure that in the sport, such as sailing, skiing among others, that they still continue in a more recreational form, and not always the high end competition. There are too few high end "jobs" for lack of better term in the high end for all of us that like sailing. But to make sure the kids can see a recreational side to the racing, cruising etc within sports that are individual in nature. Yes sailing is team oriented vs skiing, but both can be done with all being happy, enjoying themselves as a family or equal. The family part is what gets lost in many sports such as sailing, skiing for example.

MY 02, not that it is worth that much, as none of you paid .02 for it!

Anyway, keep the kids enjoying what they do, and you as a parent will also be rewarded!

marty


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> As a parent that had kids snow skiing competitively, what happens to some degree, that needs to also happen, as they grow up, and they fall to the wayside if you will, for not being good enough etc in competition, is to make sure that in the sport, such as sailing, skiing among others, that they still continue in a more recreational form, and not always the high end competition. There are too few high end "jobs" for lack of better term in the high end for all of us that like sailing. But to make sure the kids can see a recreational side to the racing, cruising etc within sports that are individual in nature. Yes sailing is team oriented vs skiing, but both can be done with all being happy, enjoying themselves as a family or equal. The family part is what gets lost in many sports such as sailing, skiing for example.
> 
> MY 02, not that it is worth that much, as none of you paid .02 for it!
> 
> ...


Absolutely right...I was reading this and remembered my son's disastrous participation in the country finals last year, where he finised 80th of 100..

I was worried he was sad, or would want to quit..then he said..he was there for the fun and to amuze himself...and his final position was due to the knowledge of a certain young missy sailor he had met there, and wanting to hang around her, while she was sailing in the back all the time.....so that's how we keep it...he can go while its fun for him...
Good post Marty


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

My son is 15 and a fanatical sailor. He will sail even a bathtub if it would float but one of the biggest incentives at the moment is taking the blond girl down the street out on the lake. I guess you would call that "recreation" though I know for a fact that he is facing some competition for this girl. And I am middle aged and boring by now but taking my woman out alone and floating around is still an incentive for me.

The point is that kids get to a point where they want an activity that makes them attractive to potential love interests. Put a pretty girl on a boat and the teenage guys fall all over themselves sailing after her.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sck5 said:


> Put a pretty girl on a boat and the teenage guys fall all over themselves sailing after her.


ehehehehhe

That is what happened to my son......    silly boy....   see here


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Damn, I'm gonna have to buy my daughter a faster boat.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

T34C said:


> Damn, I'm gonna have to buy my daughter a faster boat.


Be carefull..make sure its not a bad design with a rudder that may break...


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Above, teen boys falling over themselves to sail with the girls, why one needs boats other than opti's and lasers to sail in or on.

Along with why some club should have sloop style boats too. Some people do not like to sail alone on the boat, others prefer to be part of a team of two or three! They then do better overall. 

In the end, when one asks what boat? what do you want to teach the students, be they kids, under age 12, teens, or adults? SOme are better trying to sail a laser, others a 420, thistle, C-Lark, Lightning etc. 

Now to figure out what to do with them boys chasing my daughters.......any one have a shotgun i can clean on the dock, and as I point an empty barrel at said teen boy, asking him if "is the barrel is clean enough?"

Along with giving te shotgun to other teen daughters parents to aim at my boyz! ehehehehe, fair play is fair play is it not?

Marty


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

You might get turned in as a terrorist doing that Marty - with the new - every boater is terrorist watchdog. Now if you have one of those propelled spear guns. That would probably scare them even more as they know if you hit the mark, you can drag them back to you. If I had a daughter - thats what I would be putting out for teenage boy's display...


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

hmmmm a spear gun........hmmmmmmmmmmm

That might work Jody.

As far as T34C's daughter needing a faster boat, figure out that does not work, at least with snow ski's, daughters slow down just enough to think the poor boy can catch them, then off they go! or get caught on purpose! Not sure there is the right answer here..........


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## captjim46 (Oct 12, 2006)

*Optimist Pram Mold and Templates Available*

Hi, my name is Jim Holley, and I live near Oriental, NC. A group of local woodworkers and myself just completed Optimist Pram 12 of 12. We built 8 of these boat to be used to start a local kids sailing program. The mold and templates were built by a well known local wooden boat craftsman, Tom Lathrop. Using the mold we were able to complete the boats with about 100 man hours each. Total cost of each boat with new hardware, mast, and sail was under $1000.00
We were able to get local businesses to sponser most of the boats. They were also responsible for painting and marking them with their logos.
We are finished with the mold and templates, for the moment anyway, and would like to make them available to other groups with similar ambitions. We will loan the mold and templates to other builders who can come and pick them up and return them. We will require a $500.00, FULLY REFUNDABLE deposit to insure we get them back in good condition. PM me for further info.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Thanks Jim. I forwarded a copy of your message to our harbor master to see if they are interested in going that route. Great Idea!


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

T34C,

You changed the criteria. Go to Traverse Area Community Sailing Traverse City Michigan and look at that program. Probably a little more than your marina might want, but it is a very successful program using Prams and Sunfish...moving to Lasers. Young kids double up or single in the Prams and have little problem. Sometimes funny watching them figure it our, but a light eventually goes on. They have a older Whaler with an instructor on the water at all times when they are out. From that you can give directions or help with any emergency.

No adults in the boats unless they have a light one out with one of the kids.


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## captsuz (May 13, 2008)

*boats for kids*

If you are looking to find used cheap boats, then you really need to look into boats that are used by other programs so you could trade boats, parts, etc as needed. I agree with the other fella, prams, sunfish are best for little ones....then have them move up to 420's so they have the experience with a head sail. I'll never forget meeting a sailing instructor at a daycamp who had never sailed a boat with a headsail....(you're kidding right)no. Check out university sailing programs...they always have old 420's or 470's lying about. And if you are off the beach....I always highly recommend hobie's!!
capt suz


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

T,

Saw your reply to Alex about getting your daughter a faster boat. Having met Fred, you would be better off with a slower boat. She might catch him if you get one that is too fast.


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## captsuz (May 13, 2008)

...remember, sailing is not meant to catch them...but to surpass them....GO FOR SPEED!!!! Your daughter will love you for it!


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

I'm thinking Moth foiler at this point!


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## captsuz (May 13, 2008)

YAHAAA....now we're talking....smok'm! RISE ABOVE 'M... ; )


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

There was a moth out sailing last week where i was racing a C&C115, smoked everyones assets! Looked, fun very wet tho! she better have a wetsuit, especially if on puget sound like I am, about 40-45F water temps year around. not that you sail here!

marty


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## mgraham49 (Jan 14, 2008)

I listened to an interview about PD Racers on "Furledsails.com". Until I looked, I didn't know that stood for Puddle Duck. But what caught my attention was that a well known Austraillian small boat designer and builder (Michael Storer) was talking about getting involved in building them, because they could be built for about $300 apiece... total!. His comment was that is less than the blocks on most 10 - 12 footers. 

They are apparently the fastest growing class in the US, and something like more than 50% of them are being built by people who have not previously sailed. I did a google search, then found video clips on utube showing one in action. the great thing about one clip was that the sail was made of tyvek, which for those who cannot remember where they saw it, is the stuff you wrap houses with to weather seal them before you put on the bricks. 

This is back to the basics. But could be done by a club and members for a minimal price. 

I like the idea of building one for each of my grandchildren for less than a $1000 total. And I can put away the auto pilot and spinnaker pole.

Mike Graham


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> There was a moth out sailing last week where i was racing a C&C115, smoked everyones assets! Looked, fun very wet tho! she better have a wetsuit, especially if on puget sound like I am, about 40-45F water temps year around. not that you sail here!
> 
> marty


marty- Wher I sail we'd be thrilled with 45 F water "the other 6 months of the year". Hell, we'd be thrill with any water that stayed in a liquid state!


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## captsuz (May 13, 2008)

Hey, I've got a DN iceboat for sale....been there, done that too!! Came to my senses and sailed south! Been considering sailing the SanJuan islands one day....have a sister up there. Seen the youtube Moth clips...way cool!


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## chuckg (Nov 30, 2000)

*Try an FJ*

Club FJ's are cheap and plentiful. Many college and high school programs use them and are popular among sailing camps, too. I learned on these when I was a young kid and bought one later in life (under $500 with trailer) when I sailed on lakes in Colorado. I've seen these show up in GSA auctions (Naval Academy uses them) as well as on the old Team Vanguard website for used boat listings. The boats have positive floatation, can be sailed easily with 2 youngsters or even two adults but aren't as powered up as a 420. If you have a local college that has a sailing team, find out when they are upgrading their boats and offer to buy the old boats. THey will be worn and tired, but they will function as a good learning experience for the kids.


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