# Toilets, Y valve or not Y valve



## VIKINGBEAR (Aug 30, 2009)

In process of rebuilding plumbing system on my 31’ sailboat. Present system has a Y valve between the head and holding tank, which also allows the possibility to discharge overboard via vented loop-macerator pump depending on position of Y valve. The hose from the head is connected at top of holding tank. 
The deck pump-out goes directly from the bottom of the holding tank and to the deck pump out. Another hose goes from the bottom of the holding tank via the macerator pump and connects to the overboard discharge line via a Y (not valve) right before the seacock.
The Y valve is a Forespar Marelon valve which is a pain, get stuck, broken handles etc and I am thinking of eliminating it totally by directing all waste directly from the head to the holding tank without any Y or Y valves.
To discharge the holding tank I would use one of the two existing outlets at the bottom of the tank to discharge overboard (when legally) directly to the seacock via vented loop/macerator pump (no Y)
The deck pump-out is already there on a separate line. With this system I would lose the possibility to discharge directly overboard, but when legally to do so can still discharge overboard from the holding tank. No more Y or Y valves. 
I have looked and searched the net for a system like this but have not found any systems without a Y valve. Am I missing something?


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

You might want to bounce this idea off of someone who's in the enforcement field. My gut feeling is that unless you have a verifiable means of preventing overboard discharge, you're taking a big chance on getting fined. That Y-valve separating the macerator and the deck fill can be locked, which meets the requirements; not sure how you'd replicate that at the macerator discharge seacock.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

If you have the ability to strap the through hull to the closed position using nylon cable ties, then there's no difference than having a Y valve. When you are inside state waters, that Y valve must be disabled in the same manner. I had to replace my Y-valve five years ago, and I purchased one from WM. It has never given me a problem since I installed it five years ago. I took the old one apart, cleaned it thoroughly, and it works like it was brand new, though it has not been installed since the new one was put in place, so it's just another spare that I have on the boat that is loaded with spare everythings. 

Good luck,

Gary


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

You might want to check the USCG / ABYC rules about having a bottom drain on a black/grey water tank ... would be similar to the prohibition of such on a fuel tank. If my suspicion is correct, and if such was found upon survey it could affect the underwriting by an insurance carrier. 
The real question would be: how does one stop 'dumping' if the bottom drain connected through-hull valve is stuck/broken? As the very least (guess) you'd probably need TWO valves in series for functional and compliance safety and IF a shipboard black water holding tank is allowed to have a bottom drain.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

try this Installing a Head by Don Casey - BoatTECH - BoatUS
the one that says through tank and have a separate pumpout line


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

RichH said:


> You might want to check the USCG / ABYC rules about having a bottom drain on a black/grey water tank ... would be similar to the prohibition of such on a fuel tank. If my suspicion is correct, and if such was found upon survey it could affect the underwriting by an insurance carrier.
> The real question would be: how does one stop 'dumping' if the bottom drain connected through-hull valve is stuck/broken? As the very least (guess) you'd probably need TWO valves in series for functional and compliance safety and IF a shipboard black water holding tank is allowed to have a bottom drain.


There is nothing illegal about a bottom draining holding tank. Nor is there anything illegal in having a gravity draining holding tank - the simplest system of all. The seacock can be tied shut with a zap strap to meet the CG's locked requirements. Insurance is not an issue.

As far as eliminating the Y valve and other Y it is a good idea. A holding tank that is used often will be easier to pump out and clean than one where the waste has been sitting for a while.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

I removed a Y valve and simplified my holding system several years ago. Our boat has a Nauta bladder holding tank. 

Two outlets are in the bladder-one at the bottom, one at the top. Upper outlet:The head pumps a single line directly into the top of the bladder. The line runs above bladder so no back flow from tank.

Lower outlet: Leads to a "T". One side of the T goes directly up to the deck plate. The other side goes directly to an overboard hand pump. That hand pump then leads to the overboard seacock. 

That's it. 

In use the head goes directly into the tank. When outside the limits, we open the overboard seacock and pump the tank contents. 

For pump out: Open the deck cap, connect-pump-bladder flattens-done. 

We have no vent on the bladder. And we rarely have sewage onboard for very long as we're off shore and have a ready pump out at the docks and on a pump out boat. Both pump out pumps are large Edson commercial. 

I don't reccomend not having a vent, just saying it works. And the valves in the hand pump close and take no damage(several years use). Past the handpump is a vented loop. 

I plan to fit a plastic tank soon to replace the bladder for more capacity(nobody likes bladders, it just came with the boat). I 'll vent that tank but keep the plumbing the same, it's simple, minimal leak potential, foolproof. 

I was boarded by the CG off the north entrance to the Cape Cod Canal 3-4 seasons ago, and inspected. Because the overboard seacock is always closed(habit), and the handle is loose and stored(in the vanity locker above), I passed with flying colors.

That won't last long!!! Likely the day is coming with growing discharge areas, where more stringent overboard prevention may be the rule. And we're used to discharge laws on the great lakes so I know from experience, my set up would not pass-you have to have NO ability the pump overboard-none, in fresh water no discharge areas.


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## VIKINGBEAR (Aug 30, 2009)

Thanks all for your input. I sail mostly in a No Discharge Zone with the valve on thru hull closed and locked with a zip tie. Not an issue. Totally legal. Pump out to shore unless sailing offshore.

The Y valve handle broke off with the valve stuck in a middle position where some of the waste is pumped to the holding tank, but some of it also to the overboard discharge line where it meets a closed/locked valve at the thru hull. The waste is therefore just sitting in the line between the head and the thru hull. Not a good situation, and is rendering my head useless unless I am offshore. I want to avoid similar situations in the future by eliminating Y valves and Y connections completely.

What baffles me is that I cannot seem to find any drawings or articles describing a system without a Y valve in use by anyone, unless you are only sailing offshore. Have searched the internet for days but to no avail.
This made me wonder if I am missing something?

Why have Y valve and/or Y in the system if it is not needed and can be eliminated by having TWO outlets from the holding tank, one dedicated to deck pump out and the other dedicated to overboard via vented loop/Macerator pump. *That was really my question and would appreciate hearing from someone familiar with such a system.*
With the valve on the thru hull closed /locked (zip tie, padlock etc) in a No Discharge Zone, there are no legal issues.
We all know the problems with Y valves getting stuck, broken handles etc, so why have them? (yes, I know they should be moved more frequently to work, but........)
Appreciate all your comments.
Thank you.


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## VIKINGBEAR (Aug 30, 2009)

TomMaine said:


> I removed a Y valve and simplified my holding system several years ago. Our boat has a Nauta bladder holding tank.
> 
> Two outlets are in the bladder-one at the bottom, one at the top. Upper outlet:The head pumps a single line directly into the top of the bladder. The line runs above bladder so no back flow from tank.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tom. This is what I have been looking for. With two outlets in the holding tank for discharges, one for deck pump-out, the other for overboard via vented loop, one could also eliminate the T?
By the way I am cruising in Florida NDZ and we are still allowed to have a thru hull as long as it is locked unless offshore. At least for now......


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

VIKINGBEAR said:


> Thanks Tom. This is what I have been looking for. With two outlets in the holding tank for discharges, one for deck pump-out, the other for overboard via vented loop, one could also eliminate the T?
> By the way I am cruising in Florida NDZ and we are still allowed to have a thru hull as long as it is locked unless offshore. At least for now......


But where does your head empty into the tank?

All I really am saying is, a "T" can replace a Y valve, in most instances. As both the overboard discharge, and the deck outlet have to drain-suction from the bottom(or top with standpipe), they can be combined via a "T".

This means the Deck plate and the hand pump operate as shut offs-when pumping overboard or pump-out(hope this makes sense  ) In my case, a Y valve was redundant, expensive, tedious and stinky.

The other 1 1/2" tank outlet-top, will be the in-flow from the head pump.


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## VIKINGBEAR (Aug 30, 2009)

The manual Raritan PHII head empties directly in to the holding tank via a 1 1/2" hose that goes into the top of the tank. The two outlets are at the bottom of the tank. By having two outlets I do not think I need a Y or a T but can only pump overboard via the holding tank.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Ah! You have 3 - 1 1/2"outlets, so I think you're right.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

My tank is installed without any Y's.
My tank is custom built with
Inlet at the top
Two vent pipes 
Pump out through a stand pipe from the top of the tank (easier install this way)
Gravity discharge through a outlet at the bottom of the tank, seacock is the only valve to close of discharge.

In Sweden new discharge rules will be in effect from this spring.
They have published some documentation (in Swedish) http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/gl...system-_fritidsbatar_kostnad_konvertering.pdf

This pic i stolen from this document


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## VIKINGBEAR (Aug 30, 2009)

Correct. Three 1 1/2" outlets in tank. One at top for head to discharge into tank and two at bottom for discharge holding tank either to pump out or overboard via vented loop/ macerate pump. Sorry I was not clear about that. Think this may even be better than a T system. Thanks your replies. Much appreciated.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

VIKINGBEAR said:


> Why have Y valve and/or Y in the system if it is not needed and can be eliminated by having TWO outlets from the holding tank, one dedicated to deck pump out and the other dedicated to overboard via vented loop/Macerator pump. *That was really my question and would appreciate hearing from someone familiar with such a system.*
> .


I don't have any Y-valves. everything flushes into the holding tank either is deck pumped out of once out far enough is pumped overboard.

The boat I have before had a Y-valve that in two years I never moved. It was just less trouble to pump the tank than screw around with the valve.


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## Gladrags1 (Apr 9, 2003)

I would eliminate the Y valve and plumb straight to the holding tank. If you are in an area that permits overboard discharge then pump out using a macerator T-Ed off the bottom of the tank. 

Tod 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VIKINGBEAR (Aug 30, 2009)

knuterikt said:


> My tank is installed without any Y's.
> My tank is custom built with
> Inlet at the top
> Two vent pipes
> ...


Knut Erik, tusen takk. Unfortunately my tank is low in the hull, and must be pumped. Based on the comments received here, The more I think about it the more it makes sense for me to eliminate the Y and the Y valve.
The Swedish article is from 2005 and appears to restrict all overboard discharge for all boats, and only pump ashore. If that is the case you do not even need a thru-hull.That is the same system here in the Florida Keys, however when sailing off shore it is allowed to pump overboard. The Swedish paper did not seem to differentiate between sailing offshore or coastal? Interesting. Heia Norge!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I had a Y valve when I first hooked up the tank. Previous owner never used the tank in the first twenty years of operation. Later I removed the Y valve, and went straight to the tank. I have a manual pump I can still use where and when legal to do a direct overboard pumpout. Otherwise, my marina and many others here in the salish sea have pump outs. The much simpler method frankly. If one's boat is for the most part not going to be off shore far enough to dump over board, One could remove this part and be quite fine IMHO.

Marty


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

VIKINGBEAR said:


> Knut Erik, tusen takk. Unfortunately my tank is low in the hull, and must be pumped. Based on the comments received here, The more I think about it the more it makes sense for me to eliminate the Y and the Y valve.
> The Swedish article is from 2005 and appears to restrict all overboard discharge for all boats, and only pump ashore. If that is the case you do not even need a thru-hull.That is the same system here in the Florida Keys, however when sailing off shore it is allowed to pump overboard. The Swedish paper did not seem to differentiate between sailing offshore or coastal? Interesting. Heia Norge!


The new rules in Sweden will be active from April 2015 Recreational Craft - transportstyrelsen.se
The no discharge zone is 12 Nautical miles out, I think it's the same for all the Baltic states.








I'm based in Norway and we don't have the same rules - but it will probably change. I need to be able to get the stuff out when sailing offshore.


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## MickMeck (Dec 22, 2015)

Thanks all for the info. I too do not see the need for a Y valve. It adds more hose and joints that can fail. I am rebuilding my system so I will go from my head to the tank. The tank has a top discharge for pump outs and a gravity feed on the bottom. I think the real question was never answered though =- why are Y valves even there when you can easily discharge from the holding tank?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

VIKINGBEAR said:


> In process of rebuilding plumbing system on my 31' sailboat.


From your description and follow up posts I believe your plan will be just fine.

You can meet the requirement for avoiding overboard discharge by putting a key-operated inline electrical switch in the line to the macerator pump.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> From your description and follow up posts I believe your plan will be just fine.
> 
> You can meet the requirement for avoiding overboard discharge by putting a key-operated inline electrical switch in the line to the macerator pump.


Or just tie-wrap the valve closed as allowed by the Coast Guard.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

mitiempo said:


> Or just tie-wrap the valve closed as allowed by the Coast Guard.


From the OP description there is no Y valve. An electrical disconnect is fine.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> From the OP description there is no Y valve. An electrical disconnect is fine.


It is, if more complicated than necessary. The seacock can be tied closed which is a bit simpler.


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

TomMaine said:


> And we're used to discharge laws on the great lakes so I know from experience, my set up would not pass-you have to have NO ability the pump overboard-none, in fresh water no discharge areas.


Is this true on the US side of the great lakes? I don't believe it is, unless it's a new law. I've heard these are the rules in Canada, but not in the US. Wasn't able to find any reference to this. Do you have a link or a quote from the EPA, USCG, Boat US or something similar?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

TomMaine said:


> And we're used to discharge laws on the great lakes so I know from experience, my set up would not pass-you have to have NO ability the pump overboard-none, in fresh water no discharge areas.


So what you are saying is that any vessel that visits the Great Lakes must first haul out and remove and plug any seacocks that were legally in use in other places, before sailing the Great Lakes? Hum, I guess we'll just pass on visiting the Great Lakes.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

capta said:


> So what you are saying is that any vessel that visits the Great Lakes must first haul out and remove and plug any seacocks that were legally in use in other places, before sailing the Great Lakes? Hum, I guess we'll just pass on visiting the Great Lakes.


If there really is such a law I've never heard of it being enforced in Canada. I've cruise the Great Lakes for over ten years. A few of those was with a Y valve setup. I simply tied off the valve with a tiewrap. In all my years on the Lakes have never even had any police even ask about my setup, let alone inspect.

Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Appendix 2.0 Sewage Holding Tank Systems - Transport Canada

"Information Note:

Ontario Waters

For pleasure craft in the waters of Ontario, the overboard discharge is not permitted as per the Environmental Protection Act (Ontario), Regulation 343, "Discharge of Sewage from Pleasure Boats." Any overboard discharge, as shown in options 2, 3 and 4 will have to be disconnected and blanked before entering the waters of Ontario."

As Mike said I have never heard of it being enforced but it is the law......


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

TomMaine said:


> But where does your head empty into the tank?
> 
> All I really am saying is, a "T" can replace a Y valve, in most instances. As both the overboard discharge, and the deck outlet have to drain-suction from the bottom(or top with standpipe), they can be combined via a "T".
> 
> ...


I agree with this. When the Y-valve on the outlet of holding tank froze and the plastic handle broke, I replaced it with a tee. As Tom states, the pumpout cap and the overboard pump and seacock act as shutoffs. More reliable and simplier. My bladder tank does have a vent however. Hated the badder tank on my previous boat but this one works fine.


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## VIKINGBEAR (Aug 30, 2009)

I took out the Y and the Y valve in March this year, and installed new hoses without any T or Y or Y-valves. One hose from head to top of holding tank, Two outlets in the bottom of holding tanks, one to the macerator/seacock via vented loop and the other to deck pump out. The simplest system in my opinion. Handle on seacock always closed (not locked or zip-tied) when sailing in NDZ and keyed switch on the macerator pump with key stored in the cockpit on the key chain together with the engine starter key. 
All perfectly legal and no smelling standing sewage in any of the hoses, T's, Y's or valves anymore. 
All I can say is: "why did I not think of this before"?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

VIKINGBEAR said:


> .....one to the macerator/seacock via vented loop...


Even the vented loop isn't needed. The valve is only open when using the macerator to pump out. If it is left open the holding tank gets flushed out.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

If I had the money, I'd rip the lot out and fit a composting head.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

PaulinVictoria said:


> If I had the money, I'd rip the lot out and fit a composting head.


I was going to suggest something similar. It's what we did after sailing with our tied-off Y-valve setup for a number of years. Now there are no valves, and no extra thru-hulls to worry about. Nature's Head and Air Head are a bit pricey, but not much more than a quality standard head. C-head is 1/2 the price, but also holds 1/2 the volume. And it pays for itself over time since I no longer have to shell out for pump outs (mandatory on the Great Lakes).

I should say though, I didn't go to composting due to any issues with our existing head or Y-valve arrangement. It worked fine. It's just that a composting head is far better for our cruising needs.


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## VIKINGBEAR (Aug 30, 2009)

mitiempo said:


> Even the vented loop isn't needed. The valve is only open when using the macerator to pump out. If it is left open the holding tank gets flushed out.


I don't see how it would be flushed out even with the valve open and macerator pump stopped, unless maybe if the boat was about to capsize? The vent on the loop is located under the rub rail in an area that is normally not submerged. 
Using your comments it seems to me that if the content of the holding tank can be flushed overboard with the valve open, then seawater could also enter an empty holding tank?
What am I missing?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

VIKINGBEAR said:


> I don't see how it would be flushed out even with the valve open and macerator pump stopped, unless maybe if the boat was about to capsize? The vent on the loop is located under the rub rail in an area that is normally not submerged.
> Using your comments it seems to me that if the content of the holding tank can be flushed overboard with the valve open, then seawater could also enter an empty holding tank?
> What am I missing?


My point is that even if the valve is left open - without an anti-siphon - the worst that can happen is a holding tank full of water, if the tank is below the waterline. In other words an anti-siphon is not needed.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

mitiempo said:


> My point is that even if the valve is left open - without an anti-siphon - the worst that can happen is a holding tank full of water, if the tank is below the waterline. In other words an anti-siphon is not needed.


Depending on the arrangement a failed joker valve could flood the boat.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

VIKINGBEAR said:


> One hose from head to top of holding tank, Two outlets in the bottom of holding tanks, one to the macerator/seacock via vented loop and the other to deck pump out.


This is the arrangement I was referring to. A dedicated bottom outlet from a holding tank to the thru hull via a macerator doesn't need an anti-siphon. As I posted the worst that can happen without an anti-siphon is water in the holding tank.


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## VIKINGBEAR (Aug 30, 2009)

mitiempo said:


> This is the arrangement I was referring to. A dedicated bottom outlet from a holding tank to the thru hull via a macerator doesn't need an anti-siphon. As I posted the worst that can happen without an anti-siphon is water in the holding tank.


But is it not this that the loop which is above the waterline at any angle of heel will prevent?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

VIKINGBEAR said:


> But is it not this that the loop which is above the waterline at any angle of heel will prevent?


Open valve when pumping, close when finished.

No need for the complication of an anti-siphon that needs regular cleaning.


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## VIKINGBEAR (Aug 30, 2009)

mitiempo said:


> Open valve when pumping, close when finished.
> 
> No need for the complication of an anti-siphon that needs regular cleaning.


I totally disagree with you.
Without a vent in the system, whether in the loop or on the holding tank, how are you able to pump waste into the holding tank from the head, or worse, how are you able to pump out to shore with a closed system you are describing? Air from the tank need to escape when tank is being filled, and air need to be pulled in when you pump out? 
If you are talking of a vent system directly on the tank and no loop built into the system, then I can see that you risk flooding.
But why anyone would have such a system is beyond me unless the head and tank was located on deck or at least higher than water level at any angle of heel.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

VIKINGBEAR said:


> I totally disagree with you.
> Without a vent in the system, whether in the loop or on the holding tank, how are you able to pump waste into the holding tank from the head, or worse, how are you able to pump out to shore with a closed system you are describing? Air from the tank need to escape when tank is being filled, and air need to be pulled in when you pump out?
> If you are talking of a vent system directly on the tank and no loop built into the system, then I can see that you risk flooding.
> But why anyone would have such a system is beyond me unless the head and tank was located on deck or at least higher than water level at any angle of heel.


You are confusing tank vents (necessary) and anti-siphon vents. Any holding tank needs a vent, preferably two for good cross ventilation, and they should be large enough for good airflow through the tank to eliminate odors. A well ventilated tank will not smell. This vent (or vents) allow for air transfer when anything goes into or out of the holding tank.

An anti-siphon vent is designed to break a siphon. Your head should have 2 - one on the intake - on a Jabsco type head it goes between the pump and the back of the bowl. This prevents the head from filling or overflowing with intake water. The other anti-siphon goes between the toilet pump and the holding tank. This prevents backflow from the holding tank into the head through a dirty joker valve.

With a dedicated tank outlet to the macerator and then to the thru hull there is no need for an anti siphon. It takes space, adds cost and maintenance, and serves no real purpose. As I posted, the worst that could happen is the holding tank will get some water in it, but only if you forget to close the seacock after using the macerator to pump out. The water could not travel outside of the holding tank to the toilet as there has to be an anti-siphon between the toilet and the tank.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

VIKINGBEAR said:


> Without a vent in the system, whether in the loop or on the holding tank, how are you able to pump waste into the holding tank from the head, or worse, how are you able to pump out to shore with a closed system you are describing? Air from the tank need to escape when tank is being filled, and air need to be pulled in when you pump out?


A vent isn't strictly necessary for a bladder tank. It is still a good idea.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Dave, I found that when I had a bladder tank, a vent was needed and the bladder had a vent line. The reason for the vent was to prevent the bladder from inflating and exploding from decomposition gasses that formed inside. When my vent line plugged up from mud daubers nesting inside, the bladder tank suddenly looked like an over-inflated balloon. I figured out the problem, shoved a piece of wire into the outside vent fitting, and the gasses gushed out allowing the bladder to go back to normal. I would hate to think what would have happened had I not discovered the problem.

The other problem with bladder holding tanks is that they tend to permeate after several years of usage and the smell seeps into the cabin. I though I might had had a leak somewhere in the lines, but closer inspection and some internet research revealed the problem. I removed it and replaced it with a hard, plastic tank. I sold the boat two years later.

All the best,

Gary


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I agree with you Gary that bladders leave a lot to be desired. They are not my choice. One well installed will mostly work without a vent. You won't get it completely empty which contributes to the permeation problem you describe.


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