# Looking at buying a Discovery 47'



## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Weirdly, I had to create a new account to post this, every time I've logged into my account it gives me a http 500 error, or some other reason the forum doesn't work? I've waited weeks to ask questions thinking my account needed to be activated. 
I'm going to see the boat tomorrow, and I'm hoping to get some ideas of what to look for and if it's reasonable.

*Background on me*
I've always dreamed of living on a sailboat, ever since I got into my dad's copies of Great adventures in Small Boats. I read many books on bigger ships but those first stories always stuck. Never had the money to make it a reality.
Recently I've come across what looks like to me at least a very good possibility to finally make this dream a reality.
I'm trying to collect all relevant information and make a good decision on this, as I am looking at a very serious investment, and tying myself down for the better part of a decade. I figure this would be the best place to ask about the boat itself. I'm motivated to make this happen, I'm not just another university kid dreaming of some idealistic work and stress free life floating around in a boat. I've spent the better part of a decade working heavy industrial jobs, I went back to school after enough injuries and damage to my health. It's given me a useful background of skills, from CAD for part layouts to running CNC controlled water-jet cutters to simple machine maintenance.
I'm comfortable with wood/metalworking, anything from turning wood on a lathe to gas/mig/tig welding. I can dive, am comfortable underwater and have my own dry-suit/tank.
I'm comfortable living in less than ideal conditions, and spent roughly 8 months last year traveling south to Panama overland on an old CX500(70's Honda motorcycle).
I'm looking for a boat to live on and sail long term, blue water sailing eventually, once I have the experience to make it feasible.
I have a reasonably well paying, stable full time job, and my expenses are now extremely low.
I have sorted out all my bills, transportation etc to the point that my only recurring expenses are 68$/month for phone(including all usage).
65$/month for cable+internet
4400$/year for university tuition.
As a percentage of my income the mortgage for the boat would be approximately consistent with my current rent(50% of income). I will be an additional 250$/month into a emergency/maintenance fund.
Does this sound affordable? In terms of actual dollars, after all currently calculated expenses I'll actually have 3x more income left over after expenses than I've had in the past 3 years.

My father will be helping me with any planning for repairs or upgrades, as well as teaching me to sail. He's got decades of experience with most aspects of sail from repair to navigation, though he mostly races small boats these days.

*The Boat*

Other than a one page spec sheet on saildata.com I have found no information.
DISCOVERY 47 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
It looks a bit different from the blueprints I found on saildata, without the portholes set into the hull, and larger windows.

What should I look for in terms of issues and possible damage?
How would such large windows cope if I wanted to sail off-shore?
What would be the minimum crew possible? I'd prefer to sail solo once I gain enough experience(thinking 8-10 years away).
What kind of upgrades should be performed immediately?

Asking price 135,500$(+12.5%tax)

1983 Discovery 47' Center cockpit
Last surveyed in '08.
Had an epoxy bottom coat put on in '88, due to blistering, all blisters less than 3/8" but there were lots of them. Owner says the last time it was out of the water(two years ago) he filled approx 40 of them, all smaller than 1/4" in diameter by grinding them out with a Dremel then filling with West epoxy.
The couple who own it currently live aboard, and have done most of the work themselves.

Specs
Discovery 47' Peter Hatfield Design Offshore Cruiser
Fibreglass Centre Cockpit Cutter
Beam 13' 4"
Draft 8'
Weight 18.59 R.T
Fin Keel
½ Skeg hung rudder

Electronics
2000 Watt Trace Inverter
Apelco 265 Fish Finder/Depth Sounder
Radar - Raytheon R20X
Autopilot- Seatex s725
Depth Sounder - Data Marine Loran - Magellan Meridian GPS
Dell Laptop with electronic charts

Sails and Rigging
1 Main Cranfield
1 - 145% Genoa
1 Yankee 100%
1 Staysail with reefing points
1 Spinnaker Radial cut 1 3/4 oz. by North Sails with snuffer system by Hood Sails.
Isomat spar, made in California, double spreader, 55 feet tall
1 Spinnaker pole.
Winches are all heavy duty Knowsley (British)
2 - 2 speed primaries
2 - 2 speed secondaries
1 - 2 speed main sheet,
Winches on mast: 2 s.s. cable halyards, 1 2 speed rope halyard.
Standing rigging oversized stainless with Norseman Fittings
Harkin roller furling system on forestay, Furlex roller furling on cutter stay

Engine and Pumps
Main engine Perkins 4-236 73 Hp. diesel, 3,111 hours, head and injectors rebuilt.
Genset Yanmar driven Pincor 2 KW
3 - 12V bilge pumps wired with float switches and manual over ride switches,
1 manual bilge pump
1 engine-driven mechanical bilge pump

Tanks
Fuel - 100 gallons
Water - 200 gallons s.s. 2- 30 lbs propane cylinders in laserette locker.

Cockpit
Full fibreglass hard dodger with full side enclosure
2 - 75 watt Siemens solar panels on tilt turn brackets on roof
Wagner hydraulic steering on pedestal with hydraulic Seatex auto pilot, emergency tiller, folding cockpit table
Large and roomy.

Fire Safety
1 - 15 lb. ABC extinguisher
4 - 2.5 lb. ABC extinguishers
1 battery operated smoke detector
1 carbon monoxide detector.

Communication
Ham/SSB Radio Kenwood TS 140S and MFJ tuner, Midland sea ranger and Standard horizon VHF radios, SMR handheld VHF radio

Ground Tackle
1 - 100 lb. Plow with 300 ft. 3/8 galvanised chain, 1 Bruce 44 lb. with 50 ft. galvanised chain and 300 ft 5/8 rode, 40 lb. Danforth spare, Tigress electric windlass, rebuilt and anodized.

Batteries & Electrical
*All Batteries new June 2011
House - 4 6V Deep Cycle, Starting Battery 1 Heavy Duty 400 Amps, 2 75 Watt Siemens solar panels on tilting and turning mounts, 2 x 30 amp shore power connections, phone and cable connections

Interior
Teak interior hard wood floor
Private aft master cabin
2 Bronze hatches and 2 Lewmar hatches
4 oval opening port holes
2 round opening port holes
Large teak dining table which comfortably seats up to seven people
Halogen lighting in salon/galley/chart table
2 heads, one with shower and holding tank
Work shop has furnace and wet gear and tool storage and work bench
Fridge/freezer -Danfoss 12 volt freezer unit, and fridge alongside with top and front loading
Dickenson diesel stove/heater (Lofoten model)
Sylvannia microwave oven
Custom stainless steel galley sink insert
Wedgewood 4-burner propane stove with oven
Jensen CD/cassette player/ fm/am radio
Magma propane BBQ.

Dingy

Dingy - Avon Hypalon 10.2 ft hard bottom
Outboard Johnson 15 HP, new July 2003


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Can you summarize your post into a single simple sentence?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Welcome to Sail Net! (insert name here)
You may have overlooked the cost for dockage and marina fees just to lift such a boat out. asking price is just a number owners think up. It's not a new boat, it may have allot of equipment but it's still due for some major surveying I'd want to be real sure of the 10,000 lb keel myself. 
If your to strapped to mortgage you may never realize your dream, or sailing? If it's just you, that is allot of boat! Maybe a 30 something that surveys well would be a better choice?


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Here's my two cents:

There are many, many good boats that should meet your needs for 100K.

Does not seem like a single guy needs a 47ft boat to live on.

7-8 ft draft is pretty deep, depending on your cruising grounds.

Statistically speaking, your first boat, as much as you plan, plan, plan, and plan some more, will probably not the boat you will be on in 10 years.

Considering rebooting your brain and post some more ideas here. You should get lots of useful feedback.

I'm ass u ming that this is the prospective boat? Vancouver Sailboat Inventory


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Agree that this is WAY more boat than you'll need or even ultimately want. Slow down, and do some more research. Maintenance and upkeep on a near 50 foot boat is a huge undertaking and even a couple can live comfortably on something 40 feet or less.

If you really want to spend that much money right off there are a lot of nicer, smaller boats that will fit the bill.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

A 30 something boat would be ideal for travel only. There are other reasons behind looking at this one vs something for travel only. This is a compromise. I'm less concerned about the general size and more about the reliability and function of this design, and what to look for (aka deal breakers so I don't fork out for a survey on a obviously unusable host)


1. affordability. Somewhat unique to the area, housing is really hard to come by. Rent and living on land makes this look cheap. It's in the only live aboard marina in Vancouver. Average waitlist time to get a slip there is around twenty years right now unless you buy a boat with a slip. That boosts the price substantially. It's a coop, fees are about 150/month including laundry, workshop access, underground parking. For comparison a two bedroom condo next to the marina would run 650, 000$ easily. Impossible on my income.
Condo fees for that could easily run another 350/month, often plus parking (100/month at the nearby parkade).
it's boat or land housing in a much smaller place far out of the area I study and work in which will still cost a lot more.

2. Size. The size allows me to share the boat with another person, cutting the mortgage costs roughly in half. I've had 4 serious requests to share, plus my girlfriend who basically lives at my place anyways. while docked it would be 2-3 occupants.

If I have a family later there is space to grow, might seem weird elsewhere but here many young families are in 500 sq foot places.

My father backing me on this means a compromise on benefit to him, for his vacations with family the size is ideal.





The draft issue and potential keel issues are the kind of thing im worried about, and general info on these boats, I can't find anything! What to watch for, what wears out. Any input like that is really appreciated. Also any input on the price for the boat vs what a similar boat elsewhere goes for?


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Oops, can't figure out how to go back and edit, this is mostly from my phone. Sorry for being long winded, I want to provide accurate info, easy to write too much since i'm writing from work mostly.

You are correct, that is the boat.


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## gypsychristine (Jan 16, 2012)

I agree with the earlier posts. A 47 foot boat for someone starting out? That is not a boat that can be easily solo-ed on PLUS crew would almost have to be mandatory. The costs of such a huge boat will outweigh the beginner's joy of discovering the ocean and cruising. He may be bogged down by tremendous investments on fixing and maintaining the boat. Even on a much smaller boat, the maintenance requirement is a huge investment as it is, but I cannot imagine on a 47 foot boat. Even a 40 foot boat requires a lot of maintenance. I suggest a 42 or under boat as a beginner boat to go cruising on so there is only you to rely on, and not have to worry about reliable crew. Crew will be a headache later on and another issue as finding crew can be a hassle as I've heard horror stories, but also some great ones. 
But take it from me who've lived aboard a sailing vessel for the last 4 years, bigger does not always mean better. Especially when you stop working to go cruising and you have to rely on your savings/kitty. Unless you have a long term plan of raising a family on that particular boat you have in mind, than I would reconsider.
I have lived on a 33.5 Ft Cat and now on a 42 Ft Mono, and both have been enough space for me and my partner. Anything more would have us stuck on land and not cruising the Caribbean.
Hope this helps.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Have you checked with Spruce Harbour about your 'subletting' plan? I suspect that may not fly unless they are going to be sneakaboards. That's a pretty tight community.

I get the whole real estate situation - we live here too.. I suspect the city is going to want its pound of flesh too beyond the monthly co-op fee. It does look very tempting in a world of $500K 500 sq ft studios but do your homework and make sure you get the full picture on the liveaboard costs. And it's true you need to buy transferrable moorage around here.

It's still a lot of boat, a lot of upkeep and with little or no background in boating per se it's a hell of a big bite.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Got computer access for a bit so I'll try to be more concise.
At work I can typically write for a couple minutes every 15, so things tend to run long. Work has to come first.
I had hoped that titling background/boat separately would allow to skip over the boring bits, but I didn't want to leave out anything relevant. Sorry if it wasn't clear!

Faster: I suspect it's rather similar to the overland motorcycle community in that regard. Bring in someone else at your own peril, their behavior is on you.
If it wasn't acceptable I'd abide by their rules, the rules were there before me 

I was mostly trying to illustrate that too much space isn't an issue. My current room-mate is the only one I would be interested in having there with me, we'd be in it together, not subletting as just a place to live. He's an industrial designer, enthusiastic about boats and has access to the kinds of equipment I don't(CNC routers, vacuum presses etc). I trust him and he's a good asset to any community.
My girlfriend is similar, fascinated by sail, one of the best big picture people, invaluable when taking on a long term project. We all work well together.

The willing labor end of things is well covered, the expertise would be mostly from my dad, once he is done with his current project(18' wooden boat to fish off).


In terms of big bites, that's how I generally function best. Last September I left Vancouver for Argentina after a few days of preparation on a 79 CX500 that hadn't been run in about 15 years. I had my L permit for a couple of months before that. Took me a month straight in California to rebuild it and adapt it to the task. Might seem silly, but I never get anything done if I don't go all in. 


How much upkeep would you think is reasonable? I was budgeting approx 3000$ a year, or is that too low?

The city wants about 1100/year for anything over 37' that's being lived aboard with sewage and water hookups. 

I see your PM faster, but I can't access it! I think it was about the accounts issue. Could you email me instead? I'd appreciate any offline feedback too, I'm actually heading down to take a look around today.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Jgbrown said:


> What to watch for, what wears out.


Everything wears out - and it costs a great deal more if it is on a 47' boat than a smaller boat. Even though they are asking 135k you will effectively be maintaining a 500k or more boat and you are unlikely to do that for 3000/yr. It is likely you will drop that much on a haulout. While it may be well maintained the electronics are older for a start, diesel and genset to maintain, etc.

You will also have to deposit $52,000 with the coop.

On the other hand B.C. hst is only 12% so a bit less expense there.

Move to Victoria - very liveaboard friendly. EVERY marina in Victoria harbour is a liveaboard marina and many in surrounding areas as well.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Victoria is possible in the future, but not now. I need to be in Vancouver at least 5 more years. My folks are from there. 
Having talked things over with the owner, I've got a lot to chew over now. Marina fees are 5.50 a foot per month roughly, on top of the 52, 000 buy in, but that includes some of the bills I was adding on top. 

Having owned it for 20 years living aboard, his picture of costs is quite accurate I think. 
To account for potential issues, I rounded up on every expense to the next hundred per month and rounded down my income to the bare minimum in hours and pay where I work(very unlikely within the next 2-3 years, by which time I'll graduate, and lose the tuition expenses). I then did the same estimating again assuming I lost my job and had to pick up one at minimum wage. 

It's closer than I'd like to the maximum I can afford in the minimum wage case assuming I am paying everything all by myself. Living with another person and even in that case I'm still living more comfortably than I was two years ago.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I looked into buying Porpoise (the one in the photo on the Sailboat Data page) from Bill Killam a number of years ago. It was the very first Airex core boat ever built - very high tech in the late 60's - and preceded his brothers maxi Graybeard. It was a pretty neat boat and had been hot in its day but it was well worn and overpriced IMO. It would have been a fabulous boat for cruising these parts with that pilohouse layout.

It was HUGE - 35 to 50% bigger than my Columbia 43 if my time hazed impressions are correct. Stairs from the dock were required. It would be an expensive boat to maintain. I imagine you'd need crew to take it out, although the broker told me Killam was selling it because, even though he didn't need glasses or hearing aids, at 90 Y.O. it was getting to be too much for him to singlehand!  He kept it at RVYC Jericho so it was about the best possible berth for doing that but still....

Even if you were GIVEN that boat it would cost you tens of $thousands a year to continue owning it - over $500 just to fuel it - consider carefully.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

SloopJonB said:


> I looked into buying Porpoise (the one in the photo on the Sailboat Data page) from Bill Killam a number of years ago. It was the very first Airex core boat ever built - very high tech in the late 60's - and preceded his brothers maxi Graybeard. It was a pretty neat boat and had been hot in its day but it was well worn and overpriced IMO. It would have been a fabulous boat for cruising these parts with that pilohouse layout.
> 
> It was HUGE - 35 to 50% bigger than my Columbia 43 if my time hazed impressions are correct. Stairs from the dock were required. It would be an expensive boat to maintain. I imagine you'd need crew to take it out, although the broker told me Killam was selling it because, even though he didn't need glasses or hearing aids, at 90 Y.O. it was getting to be too much for him to singlehand!  He kept it at RVYC Jericho so it was about the best possible berth for doing that but still....
> 
> Even if you were GIVEN that boat it would cost you tens of $thousands a year to continue owning it - over $500 just to fuel it - consider carefully.


Thank you! Can you give me a rough break down of those costs? Where do the 10s of thousands come from? Labor? Parts? Materials?
If it's materials that's a problem. Parts less so, and labor not so much, with the exception of engine or electrical repairs, though I can likely get some help for the basics on those as well.

The usage during the first 4-5 years will be pretty light, it'll mostly stay in dock. A bit of coastal sailing, practicing under

The owner says he average 1-1.1 gph under power. Anything less than a 3 day trip under heavy cloud cover and they don't burn any diesel for electricity either.

How can you check if it was Airex cored, the owner said it was a balsa core for his?

If anyone knows of any other boats in the Co-op for sale I'm all ears, I don't want to get too much tunnel vision, but she sure looked nicely taken care of.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jgbrown said:


> Thank you! Can you give me a rough break down of those costs? Where do the 10s of thousands come from? Labor? Parts? Materials?
> If it's materials that's a problem. Parts less so, and labor not so much, with the exception of engine or electrical repairs, though I can likely get some help for the basics on those as well.
> 
> The usage during the first 4-5 years will be pretty light, it'll mostly stay in dock. A bit of coastal sailing, practicing under
> ...


Here's some examples - even cheap sails will start at around $5K each, you could easily spend $8K EACH for deluxe ones. Fuel at $500 a fill, at least $500 for bottom paint - just the cans of paint. Hauling for bottom maintenance, probably $300 each way. $1 a MINUTE for pressure washing the bottom and that boat will take a hour to do properly. Probably $800+ for time on the hard. You have the ongoing costs for parking it at the Co-Op - with the City charges you'll be paying $5K or so, not counting the amortization of the buy in. Replacing running rigging will run $1.50 a foot for each of the lines - in low tech line. A single snap shackle for a boat that size will eat most of $100.

Shall I continue? 

One thing to remember is that sailboats tend to eat money irregularly, but in big chunks - you can go for several years on a set of sails but then you need a couple of new ones - goodbye $10K - $15K. You may go several years spending very little on the engine - just fuel, oil & filters but then you need to do your stuffing box and cutless bearing, maybe a new shaft if it has been badly scored - $$$$$. Damage a prop with some floating debris - $500 to $3K+ depending on your prop. I don't know how the boat is outfitted but things like water heaters, hot air furnaces, refrigeration etc. get very expensive when they break, which they do a lot more frequently than home versions. You have to provide your own water pumps - the city doesn't pressurize the water for you - and they are troublesome critters.

These are only some examples, not an exhaustive list but I think you see how things can add up quickly. There is ALWAYS something that needs doing on a boat and it's ALWAYS more expensive than expected, usually 2 or 3 times more.

I don't want to scare you off but I think you would be well advised to dial back on the size of boat you are considering starting with. A 40' boat will probably cost little more than 1/2 as much to operate as that monster you are looking at - it is a very big 47' boat.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

SloopJonB said:


> Here's some examples - even cheap sails will start at around $5K each, you could easily spend $8K EACH for deluxe ones. Fuel at $500 a fill, at least $500 for bottom paint - just the cans of paint. Hauling for bottom maintenance, probably $300 each way. $1 a MINUTE for pressure washing the bottom and that boat will take a hour to do properly. Probably $800+ for time on the hard. You have the ongoing costs for parking it at the Co-Op - with the City charges you'll be paying $5K or so, not counting the amortization of the buy in. Replacing running rigging will run $1.50 a foot for each of the lines - in low tech line. A single snap shackle for a boat that size will eat most of $100.


Hmm, they told me city charges were rolled into the moorage fees, he phoned the front office and they confirmed 5.15 rising to 5.50 for 2013, all in. With their current slip that works out to 57 for winter including running space heaters and an oil filled heater in the main cabin. 
Cable, internet, parking, sauna, workshop access, electric based on their consumption levels, city fees etc.
Works out to 6900/year for that.
on top of that they pay 110$/mo for insurance for insurance.

How often do you need to apply bottom paint to an epoxy coated boat?
How often should you get the boat on land and power wash the bottom?
Do you know if the Royal Victoria Yacht club haul out could take a boat of this size? I think I might get slightly better rates there if my dad is hauling it out(he's a member there)

When you say hauling out, does this imply winching out and placing up on a wheeled trailer, using a lift, or using a tidal grid?
If using a tidal grid, could I then bring my own gas power washer and clean it there instead?



> Shall I continue?


Yes please!



> One thing to remember is that sailboats tend to eat money irregularly, but in big chunks - you can go for several years on a set of sails but then you need a couple of new ones - goodbye $10K - $15K. You may go several years spending very little on the engine - just fuel, oil & filters but then you need to do your stuffing box and cutless bearing, maybe a new shaft if it has been badly scored - $$$$$. Damage a prop with some floating debris - $500 to $3K+ depending on your prop. I don't know how the boat is outfitted but things like water heaters, hot air furnaces, refrigeration etc. get very expensive when they break, which they do a lot more frequently than home versions. You have to provide your own water pumps - the city doesn't pressurize the water for you - and they are troublesome critters.
> 
> These are only some examples, not an exhaustive list but I think you see how things can add up quickly. There is ALWAYS something that needs doing on a boat and it's ALWAYS more expensive than expected, usually 2 or 3 times more.
> 
> I don't want to scare you off but I think you would be well advised to dial back on the size of boat you are considering starting with. A 40' boat will probably cost little more than 1/2 as much to operate as that monster you are looking at - it is a very big 47' boat.


The diesel engine is in good shape, honestly it's the cleanest I've ever seen. 
Packing is probably still good, it was done in 2010 as well, tools and enough packing for two more rounds is secured right by the shaft, there's still 3/4" space left on the adjustment. 
Refrigeration was redone in '08 and is a very nice low power draw system(Nova Kool, replacement on it is 1297$ for the same unit)
Hot water tank is custom built. Welded SS by a local welder/sailor with stock home depot fittings for easy replacement of wearing parts. 
Hot air is electric on grid, diesel off. He mentioned the water pumps but I've forgotten.

Half as much is a big savings  That is very good to know. It leaves all costs directly on me though, so I have to factor that in as well. Especially when moorage outside the Co-op is significantly more.
If you have any suggestions of boats for sale, or areas to look, I'm all ears!

By all means keep going, the more I can get an idea of the cost of things the better. 
Every little clue helps when you're as completely ignorant of what you're thinking of getting into as I am. :laugher


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Royal Victoria only has a lift for the dry sailed small racers. You would have to haul at Canoe Cove or Westport in Sidney.

I think it is a great boat - but I think you are looking at it with rose coloured glasses and not seeing the future costs. Even if everything is fine now your budget will not let you keep it in the condition it is in. Often seen is the boat that someone could afford to buy or finance and then they could not afford to keep them in the condition they are accustomed to - and then years later they are for sale at a huge discount and needing lots of work and replacement. 

How often should the bottom be cleaned/washed? Every 2 years works around here with divers to check and replace zincs and scrub in between hauling.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

mitiempo said:


> Royal Victoria only has a lift for the dry sailed small racers. You would have to haul at Canoe Cove or Westport in Sidney.
> 
> I think it is a great boat - but I think you are looking at it with rose coloured glasses and not seeing the future costs. Even if everything is fine now your budget will not let you keep it in the condition it is in. Often seen is the boat that someone could afford to buy or finance and then they could not afford to keep them in the condition they are accustomed to - and then years later they are for sale at a huge discount and needing lots of work and replacement.
> 
> How often should the bottom be cleaned/washed? Every 2 years works around here with divers to check and replace zincs and scrub in between hauling.


I can't thank you guys enough for being patient and providing so much info. I'm still ignorant, but at least I am starting to figure out how little I know about what's involved. That is a reasonable assumption, all I've got to go on are SWAGs and what the PO of the boat told me in terms of costs.

I've got no issues working underwater, zinc replacement /scrubbing etc shouldn't be an issue. Would that be on a 6 month or yearly check/clean?

I remember as a kid wandering under much bigger boats there on land there mostly because of the time they knocked the mast off of one with the crane. Is that all gone now? That was close to 20 years ago I suppose.

I just realized my math was off in the previous post. 5.50x52 does not equal 575.

If I were to go smaller(for arguments sake a 40' as suggested) would all operation costs actually be halved? For example sails would be 2500-4000$ instead of 5-8? Diesel engine overhauling be 50% of cost, repacking the coupling 50% cheaper, fuel consumption of .5 gph? Hauling out 50% cheaper as well?

I'm trying to get an accurate picture so I can make a good choice. Having no experience I'm certainly in no position to argue the costs involved, I just want to nail down some rough numbers I can work with, you all have far more experience than me.

What would you say would be a reasonable yearly budget for maintenance for it?

What about for a 40'?

I have a suspicion that some of the involved costs are fixed, and others similar regardless of the size difference. That's based on experience with land vehicles though.

Basically if a 40' is 50% or less all in(or a 35 is) then I should go that route and have it to myself. Otherwise having someone else contributing to the effort/expenses on the bigger boat makes more sense to me.

2200$-550$ with more living space is a better deal than 1700$/mo for a boat that won't go offshore later, moored in an area where everything costs extra and ending up even closer in expenses. I did a rough tally of the costs for a 40' at heather marina, and it came out close to 1700$/mo, assuming up front costs of 60, 000 for the boat.

Are there any other areas you would recommend looking, or other boats currently for sale that would allow living aboard, and transition well to long distances later for sale right now in the area?

What about alternative hull materials?(ferrocement, steel)

I've confirmed the rough financing end of things, looks like I'll be paying around 3.2% on whatever the end investment is.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Epoxy coating is not an antifoulant.. the bottom paint goes on top of that so whether a hull has been coated is immaterial to the use/frequency of antifouling paint. It's a preventative measure for osmotic blisters on the hull. 2 years between major haulouts is doable esp if you can keep up inbetween with scrubs and cleans.

Avoid ferro boats.. steel boats can be OK but again you need to be very careful that they've been properly built and maintained. (one old Folkes 37 in our marina was being scrubbed after sitting as a liveaboard for years, she had 3" of mussels everywhere. Luckily a travel lift was close by because at one point the diver scraped off a patch and opened up a thumb sized hole in the steel - can you say 'glug glug'?)

Good steel boats come at a premium, not a bargain, with additional upkeep and watchfulness required. Aluminum is similar but with different issues, and wood boats are another thing altogether. In your situation a well found fiberglass boat will be the best choice.

Your need to liveaboard in Vancouver complicates things a lot. The co-op route is probably the best one. Heather has limited space, as does Pier 32. Fishermans Floats no longer sanctions new liveaboards.

As expensive as the cost of living in Vancouver is, living aboard (legally and conveniently) is not 'cheap' either.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Jgborwn,

Are you truly looking for advice or for affirmation concerning your decision. The advice you are getting so far has been sound advice. This is quite a chunk of boat to bite off for your first boat. Using it as a liveaboard will set up a different scenerio than just dropping the dock lines and taking her out for a cruise. 

There are many things to consider here. Lets take maintainence for example Take just one....which one of your helpers will build design and fabricate new sails for instance. The expense for a 40 footer vs a 47 footer for sails is much geater. Your $3000 a year budget wouldnt even buy you one new sail. 

I applaud you for reaching out to others with experience in boating and living aboard, but listeneing without challanging their comments or suggestio0ns appears to be a challenge.

Dave


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Faster said:


> Epoxy coating is not an antifoulant.. the bottom paint goes on top of that so whether a hull has been coated is immaterial to the use/frequency of antifouling paint. It's a preventative measure for osmotic blisters on the hull. 2 years between major haulouts is doable esp if you can keep up inbetween with scrubs and cleans.
> 
> Avoid ferro boats.. steel boats can be OK but again you need to be very careful that they've been properly built and maintained. (one old Folkes 37 in our marina was being scrubbed after sitting as a liveaboard for years, she had 3" of mussels everywhere. Luckily a travel lift was close by because at one point the diver scraped off a patch and opened up a thumb sized hole in the steel - can you say 'glug glug'?)
> 
> ...


I see. No matter what, anything is more expensive than my current place. I've never really had any interest in owning a condo here. I had been considering the land equivalent to sneak a board with a truck conversion or living on a boat. Both are things I've always wanted to do. 
I have seen references and arguments between hard bottom paints and wearing paints such as copper based ones. 
what is considered a hard paint?

I'm totally open to alternatives, if that is the better route. I'm trying to get an idea of where the savings are and how much they'd be now. Do you know any other coop boats for sale? or any decent live aboard situations?

what other factors come into play on a steel hull? Im assuming higher maintenance due to risk of rust etc.

Same question for ferrocement, I hadn't seen any decent condition ones for sale with a slip, but I was curious about them.


chef2sail said:


> Jgborwn,
> 
> Are you truly looking for advice or for affirmation concerning your decision. The advice you are getting so far has been sound advice. This is quite a chunk of boat to bite off for your first boat. Using it as a liveaboard will set up a different scenerio than just dropping the dock lines and taking her out for a cruise.
> 
> ...


Sorry if it appears that way, I am seeking clarification and further understanding not disagreeing. They have experience, I have none.

the one factor different in my situation vs living aboard in another city is the off boat costs. 
Outside the coop double the moorage fees per foot(12 vs6), start requiring pumping out instead (requires payment and fuel to move). 
Add 100 a month for city fees and 550a month extra since costs aren't shared.

Extra costs for shop access, parking etc all add up too. the savings since I won't be sharing, and living outside the coop looks to add up to 1000$ more a month.

On the other hand I'll save 400to 500a month in mortgage costs on a less expensive boat.

If the savings on the smaller boat account for the difference over time then my choice is easy. I am trying to see where those savings are. Even very rough figures would be very helpful. Can you help me with that? What would your estimate of operating costs on a 40 vs the 47 be?

if no other factors had to be accounted for I would be looking to go as small as possible that would still have standing headroom and be safe off shore later.

Do you know of any small boats with live aboard moorage in Vancouver? Or any advice on where to look. I've only come across one. Asking 90k. Only 6 more months of moorage too.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Jgbrown said:


> I have seen references and arguments between hard bottom paints and wearing paints such as copper based ones.
> what is considered a hard paint?


"Ablative" paints are designed to 'slough off' due to the movement of the water, exposing new biocides over the life span of the paint. They generally result in a slightly rougher surface and are popular with the non racing crowd. Regularly scrubbing the hull of a boat with ablative paint will remove more paint sooner, perhaps requiring recoating more often too. OTOH ablative paints don't tend to build up layers like hard paints will.

Hard paints don't ablate, they can be sanded and burnished to a very smooth surface and will stand up better to frequent scrubbing.. favoured by the racing crowd for obvious reasons. Paint layers do build up, requiring the periodic (unpleasant) task of removing the old paint back to the barrier coat or gel coat.



Jgbrown said:


> what other factors come into play on a steel hull? Im assuming higher maintenance due to risk of rust etc.
> 
> Same question for ferrocement, I hadn't seen any decent condition ones for sale with a slip, but I was curious about them.


Metal boats do rust.. that makes upkeep more problematic, and proper maintenance more important (ref my anecdotal tale above - the growth was keeping that poorly maintained boat afloat ) Good metal boats like Amazon, Waterline, etc are priced at a premium like any other high quality build.
Aluminum has it's own corrosion issues and antifouling paints can themselves cause issues.

Ferrocement was the backyard builders material of choice and as a result there are some very questionable boats out there.. poorly finished and executed. I have seen FC boats you couldn't tell from F/g but they are rare indeed. Simply too many question marks for an uniformed buyer.. and an informed one generally knows better and looks beyond the 'great price'.

Your right about one thing.. the only practical route is to find an existing, assumable co-op slip. The problem is they're rare as hens' teeth, and the one that is there is a BIG proposition for a first boat scenario.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Jgb... too bad Victoria doesn't work for you:

CS 36 Traditional


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Faster said:


> Jgb... too bad Victoria doesn't work for you:
> 
> CS 36 Traditional


You're telling me. I've been drooling over that ad for a while. That's exactly what I would like in a boat. Well put together, easy to handle and well maintained.

I'd even be willing to buy the motorboat currently for sale at the Co-op and work out a trade, even if it cost me 60-70k instead of 48. 140k more is pretty silly though.

There's quite a few nice boats around. I just can't find anything with moorage. If I could find a slip in Vancouver I'd get it right away, and sort out the boat part later.

I need to be not much more than 15KM from 1067 West Cordova street or Granville island. Realistic range to make my commute to work and school feasible by e-bike.

I wouldn't even mind living at anchor. I have showers and proper washrooms at work and school, and I can do laundry at my friends.
I spend all day at work watching the boats go by(I work in a tower near the convention center). I could quite easily get to and from work by water, my window directly faces the Chevron floating gas station. 


I grew up reading Joshua Slocum, etc. Single handing was a large part of that dream. 
In an ideal world I'd find the perfect boat first, then find a place to park it after. Rather than having to find the perfect place to park, and a boat to go with. I realize that may have been part of the confusion originally, I am looking for a floating home that I can live on, and that could be sailed around, rather than a boat I want to sail that I could live on.

If I could get even most of my money back I would be ok with buying and then reselling the '47 to reduce the operating costs but be able to live in the Co-op. Even if that required moving it, as it is with tanks topped off etc, my dad and I could easily take a few weeks off to get it somewhere it would be easier to sell.

Do good steel boats cost more up front and less to maintain/operate or more all around? How is their resale value? Vancouver is a funny place in that sense, at the going rates for moorage and repairs it looks like after 5-6 years the purchase price is the least expensive part of the whole thing.
I'd rather spend up front and save in the long term.

I'd still really like to get a rough idea of operating costs per month for any 40' sailboat vs the '47 to have some better idea of where the trade offs work out best one way or the other.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Jgbrown said:


> Do good steel boats cost more up front and less to maintain/operate or more all around? How is their resale value?


Good steel boats are expensive and rare. Here are a few examples;
1991 Waterline 44 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
1988 Waterline 50 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
2003 Waterline Yachts Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I don't think any steel boat will be less expensive to maintain than a comparable fiberglass boat. And except for very few they suffer in resale. Actually the first 2 links show boats that may have been more expensive if built in fiberglass - and they were very expensive new.

I think there are a few small marinas in the Fraser River for liveaboard, but it would be a commute.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

What is the benefit of steel then? Just curious mostly, glass makes the most sense for me. 

I came across a blog for a sailor who lived on a trimaran at anchor here in Vancouver. I honestly didn't think that was possible around here. Reflecting on why I wanted this, I realized that I always wanted to live on a boat, because I wanted to sail and explore, not because I wanted to have a bigger place to sleep. I was looking at the 47' as a house that could be sailed even if it wasn't ideal. That is not what my interest really was, but an adaption of what I thought I needed( a house) and a compromise that could let me do something I was interested in, perhaps not even a very good one(I want to learn to solo) because I came across it and it solved a part of the equation I didn't know how to approach.

I also realized that I was being fixated on things I "needed", shore power, work shop space, secure parking etc. In reality I don't need those things. If the point was to live on a boat, then I should focus on that. I remember a line from my favorite book on sailing, about the way to learn to sail was to live in the boat and sail it in all conditions where you already were, deal with all the problems with what you have at hand, get used to the mildewing sails, the bad food and soggy sheets. Bearing in mind that it was written when wooden boats with no motor and no electricity were standard, the core of the idea still has merit. If I can't make it living at anchor, how can I expect to do so offshore.
I've started to find people who DO live at anchor here. Most of the people here living at anchor state the hardest thing is the travel required for showers, or finding a way to commute on land. Both of my primary destinations(work and school) are reasonably water accessible, and there are people who commute by kayak or dinghy. Both also have showers I can access almost 24/7. Also there are clean water taps I can easily fill up from. 

If I am careful, I should be able to live quite comfortably at anchor. This totally changes the boats I am looking at, since a place to dock is no longer my main focus. It also takes out the largest portions of the day to day costs for me, cutting expenses allows for a lot of leeway in additional costs to live at anchor(fuel, pump outs, maintenance and upgrades etc). 1000$ a month should go a long way towards that. 

I noticed at home I still live almost like I'm on my bike. I typically use less than 10l of water a day not counting showers. Food and water won't be a change from how I live now, and my options are opening up. Thank you again for the good advice.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Anchoring full time in Vancouver is a bit problematic these days too (Sorry to rain on your parade again) False Creek, which offers best shelter and convenience, is restricted to 2 weeks every so many months, and requires a permit. This has forced such people out into English Bay, where every year a few of them wash ashore in storms due to inadequate ground tackle, heavy wind and big waves. Last night would have been a sleepless one for you too. (or you may have woken up half way to Nanaimo)

There are several people doing it, and technically it's legal except overstaying your permit in FC or trying it on in Vancouver Harbour, but it means long periods with your boat unattended (while you're at work) and you're at the mercy of the weather. Also getting water, pumpouts, charging batteries etc are all going to cost since you'll likely have to take transient moorage for some of those tasks - but as you say, much less than full time moorage. Another issue is where to leave your kayak/tender during your shore time.

btw, glad you're listening to reason re: the 47 footer.. I do like your new focus better and your selection choice is now wide open. But you may find it's not as simple as it sounds. Good luck.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Faster said:


> Anchoring full time in Vancouver is a bit problematic these days too (Sorry to rain on your parade again) False Creek, which offers best shelter and convenience, is restricted to 2 weeks every so many months, and requires a permit. This has forced such people out into English Bay, where every year a few of them wash ashore in storms due to inadequate ground tackle, heavy wind and big waves. Last night would have been a sleepless one for you too. (or you may have woken up half way to Nanaimo)
> 
> There are several people doing it, and technically it's legal except overstaying your permit in FC or trying it on in Vancouver Harbour, but it means long periods with your boat unattended (while you're at work) and you're at the mercy of the weather. Also getting water, pumpouts, charging batteries etc are all going to cost since you'll likely have to take transient moorage for some of those tasks - but as you say, much less than full time moorage. Another issue is where to leave your kayak/tender during your shore time.
> 
> btw, glad you're listening to reason re: the 47 footer.. I do like your new focus better and your selection choice is now wide open. But you may find it's not as simple as it sounds. Good luck.


At least im progressing towards less ignorance. I found the question and answer section and read as far back as it goes until 5 am today too, that had lots of things to consider too. Dimple and easy are not required. Possible is definitely a good idea though. You are not raining on anything, I really appreciate the info and patience. 
everyone who has replied taught me something, or gave me a new area to add to my list of topics to research.

Time and stubbornness I have, money is much more finite. I need a challenge, but want to manage the risks as much as possible. I'm going to start a new thread on it to explore my options since this is way off topic now, I'd really appreciate the continued good council if you don't mind the total beginners questions I have.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jgbrown said:


> What is the benefit of steel then? Just curious mostly, glass makes the most sense for me.
> 
> I came across a blog for a sailor who lived on a trimaran at anchor here in Vancouver. I honestly didn't think that was possible around here. Reflecting on why I wanted this, I realized that I always wanted to live on a boat, because I wanted to sail and explore, not because I wanted to have a bigger place to sleep. I was looking at the 47' as a house that could be sailed even if it wasn't ideal. That is not what my interest really was, but an adaption of what I thought I needed( a house) and a compromise that could let me do something I was interested in, perhaps not even a very good one(I want to learn to solo) because I came across it and it solved a part of the equation I didn't know how to approach.
> 
> ...


JG, just a quick reality check - Working at a city job while living at anchor, particularly in a climate like ours, is very different from cruising - so different in fact that it might put you off cruising entirely. Rowing back & forth in the rain & cold would get old in a hurry. It's very difficult to maintain "city" or "office" clothes and grooming under those circumstances. Picture rowing ashore in a November rain with a couple of garbage bags of laundry, which you have to bicycle to the laundromat (if your bike hasn't been stolen). Every few days you'll have to up anchor just to go fill your water tanks. AFAIK there isn't anywhere near any anchorages where water is available to just anybody who stops by. The gas docks will quickly tire of seeing you if you aren't buying fuel from them regularly.

Living aboard here, even in a deluxe marina, requires adjustments and compromises that few are prepared to make once the reality hits home. Living at anchor multiplies them exponentially. This ain't the tropics.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

SloopJonB said:


> The gas docks will quickly tire of seeing you if you aren't buying fuel from them regularly.


Speaking of gas docks, where is the closest one if you are anchoring in English Bay? As far as I know the one near Burrard Civic Marina has been closed for years. Coal Harbour?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jg - take a look at bumfuzzle.com:

http://www.bumfuzzle.com/Pages/2010/2010_06.php#Spindrift

They are living aboard a 43'er - and you'll get a very good idea of the kind of maintenance that's involved. It seems to working out great for them, but they are in Mexico and are able to handle the ongoing expenses.

Either way, they're great people - and their blog gives a lot of great info...including costs for everything.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

mitiempo said:


> Speaking of gas docks, where is the closest one if you are anchoring in English Bay? As far as I know the one near Burrard Civic Marina has been closed for years. Coal Harbour?


Coal Harbour, Fisherman's Cove and Sewell's in Horseshoe Bay are probably the closest. They along with Mosquito Creek and Deep Cove are it AFAIK.

I'm sure there are some water hoses in False Creek but you'd have to raft up to access them unless there's one at the Market docks.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

mitiempo said:


> Speaking of gas docks, where is the closest one if you are anchoring in English Bay? As far as I know the one near Burrard Civic Marina has been closed for years. Coal Harbour?


The False Creek fuel barge reopened last year at the same location so that's not a big issue anymore. Not Esso, but an independant.

The market docks are not quite as 'visitor friendly' as they once were, but they are all new and more extensive...


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Faster said:


> The False Creek fuel barge reopened last year at the same location so that's not a big issue anymore. Not Esso, but an independent.


That's good - I didn't know that.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

smackdaddy said:


> jg - take a look at bumfuzzle.com:
> 
> bumfuzzle | june 2010
> 
> ...


Thank you very much! I was following disengage.ca which was what gave me the idea for anchoring being possible since he lived out at Kit's beach after getting kicked out of False creek, but he didn't list a lot of costs.



SloopJonB said:


> Coal Harbour, Fisherman's Cove and Sewell's in Horseshoe Bay are probably the closest. They along with Mosquito Creek and Deep Cove are it AFAIK.
> 
> I'm sure there are some water hoses in False Creek but you'd have to raft up to access them unless there's one at the Market docks.


 Disengage.ca talks about the water taps under the bridge, I'm trying to find contact info for him, and the couple who live aboard sv Asunto, according to their site they started out anchoring for a few years first around here before buying a boat in the Co-op. Would fuel docks be tolerant of tanking up on water if you're buying diesel at the same time?



SloopJonB said:


> JG, just a quick reality check - Working at a city job while living at anchor, particularly in a climate like ours, is very different from cruising - so different in fact that it might put you off cruising entirely. Rowing back & forth in the rain & cold would get old in a hurry. It's very difficult to maintain "city" or "office" clothes and grooming under those circumstances. Picture rowing ashore in a November rain with a couple of garbage bags of laundry, which you have to bicycle to the laundromat (if your bike hasn't been stolen). Every few days you'll have to up anchor just to go fill your water tanks. AFAIK there isn't anywhere near any anchorages where water is available to just anybody who stops by. The gas docks will quickly tire of seeing you if you aren't buying fuel from them regularly.
> 
> Living aboard here, even in a deluxe marina, requires adjustments and compromises that few are prepared to make once the reality hits home. Living at anchor multiplies them exponentially. This ain't the tropics.


That's a really good point, I had been thinking of a motor, but it would probably disappear fast! Do most people who live at anchor here row instead of using a motor to avoid theft? What sort of a dinghy is safe for back and forth and beaching in all weather with decent cargo capacity?

I'd likely continue using the same bag setup on my bike if I can afford the insurance on top of the boat costs. 









If not I'll be moving the battery on my E-bicycle(48V 10AH lithium and a 1000w rear engine) into the frame triangle and I can swap the saddlebags over from my bike, they are just modified bicycle bags. 
I'd need a way to transport in the dinghy without losing it overboard like happened to the owner of disengage.ca's bike, any thoughts on how to do that?

I need to maintain a reasonable level of cleanliness, but other than a beard trim every couple weeks(battery power razor I charge once a month) that is pretty much limited to a shower before I start work, I can do like the people who work out before shift. In terms of clothes, I just need hole free pants and clean shirts. I wear a mix of quick dry nylon(travel) pants and jeans, lightweight cotton shirts under a fleece to cut down on laundromat expenses.

Every point helps me to learn about those differences, you've given me several more things to try and figure out, thanks!



Faster said:


> The False Creek fuel barge reopened last year at the same location so that's not a big issue anymore. Not Esso, but an independant.
> 
> The market docks are not quite as 'visitor friendly' as they once were, but they are all new and more extensive...


Hmm, there's teacher who lives on a houseboat, and a couple more who commute across to Granville island by water I think, I'll ask them about how they park. If I could take care of most things in one place that would make life a lot simpler.

Do you know anybody currently living aboard in Van long term outside of False Creek or a Marina, I'd really appreciate a chance to talk it over with someone who's done it, see what I might be in for.


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## benajah (Mar 28, 2011)

Wow is Vancouver really that bad? I thought the SF Bay area was bad but that sounds much worse.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Yes, it is that bad.

Victoria is the place to be.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Jgbrown said:


> Do you know anybody currently living aboard in Van long term outside of False Creek or a Marina, I'd really appreciate a chance to talk it over with someone who's done it, see what I might be in for.


There's a Catalina 36 called "Pegasus" that seems to cycle in and out of False Creek (probably wearing out their permit, moving out and re applying, etc etc) When they are not in the creek the boat is anchored just past the Maritime Museum in English Bay, edge of the fairway. You might see if you can catch them sometime (do you have any kind of boat now?)

There is also a floathome community just east of the Ocean Cement plant and it might be worth chatting up some members there for some inside info.

You may find that most of those living aboard on the hook in the area will tend to be rather reclusive - but you may get lucky. The liveaboard communities in marinas are usually a pretty friendly bunch and should be happy to discuss the realities of the lifestyle.

Other floathomes areas are in North Vancouver's marinas as well as in Ladner's Canoe Cove area on the river. Shelter Island marina on the New West/Richmond border further up the river also allows liveaboards, I believe.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

benajah said:


> Wow is Vancouver really that bad? I thought the SF Bay area was bad but that sounds much worse.


It's almost impossible here - you have to buy a boat with a transferable berth, just like in the early 70's. S.F conditions are merely a dream here - that big floathome area in Sausalito, living aboard at scruffy docks in San Rafael, picking up a berth for a big boat anytime in Alameda - I wish. The fact that you have lots of regular wind is also merely a dream here. 

I don't envy your dry storage rates though - $1/foot a DAY 9 years ago in San Rafael.  I paid $350 a MONTH for my 43', 5 minutes from home back then. Even now, I only pay 40% of those 2003 S.F. rates.

Having to motor all the way to Napa to be able to afford to work on your boat for a stretch would be a pain.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Faster said:


> There's a Catalina 36 called "Pegasus" that seems to cycle in and out of False Creek (probably wearing out their permit, moving out and re applying, etc etc) When they are not in the creek the boat is anchored just past the Maritime Museum in English Bay, edge of the fairway. You might see if you can catch them sometime (do you have any kind of boat now?)
> 
> There is also a floathome community just east of the Ocean Cement plant and it might be worth chatting up some members there for some inside info.
> 
> ...


Too funny, the owner of the Pegasus is sitting next to me at work most days.:laugher We've worked together for months and I just mentioned that I was looking at boats in passing a day before reading your post.

I've been bookmarking people I want to bug for advice on here when I remember. Real life would be good too though. I'll be over in Victoria Friday the 13th to take a look at a couple boats like that CS36T in anyone wouldn't mind a visitor for a bit.

Can sailboats dock in the N Van marinas? That might not be too bad of an option.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jgbrown said:


> Too funny, the owner of the Pegasus is sitting next to me at work most days.:laugher We've worked together for months and I just mentioned that I was looking at boats in passing a day before reading your post.
> 
> I've been bookmarking people I want to bug for advice on here when I remember. Real life would be good too though. I'll be over in Victoria Friday the 13th to take a look at a couple boats like that CS36T in anyone wouldn't mind a visitor for a bit.
> 
> Can sailboats dock in the N Van marinas? That might not be too bad of an option.


They are all full, especially the limited number of liveaboard slips. I heard two days ago that Sewells had some, or a berth, available in the 33-35 range but no liveaboards there anyway.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

just noticed this thread
the biggest question is do you want a place to live? or a sailboat?
most boats degrade rather quickly if not being used regularly 
if you would like to live on the water I would consider looking into a float home
many live aboard I've seen are usually minimally maintained and become derelict after 5-10 years 
living on a working boat is much different than living aboard
the price issues on maintenance and things like sail repair and replacement 
can vary drastically from one boat to the next to do a comparison try looking a several boats and sail prices at maui pro they have a large online database with sails and prices to compare for a huge variety of boats
LOA increases costs dramatically each foot costs many $ in both purchase price and maintenance as well as parts being $$$$
the co-op sounds like a good deal but most of what you would be paying for is the assumable moorage
just my $ .02

Bill White
1976 Discovery 32
on permanent anchor near Victoria not living aboard


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## Starbuck (Feb 12, 2013)

I lived aboard a San Juan 24 for two years while a student at SFU in the early 80's. Worked out OK although I would have liked to have been able to stand up in the boat. Costs go way up dramatically with the size of boat not just because it has more gear. Haul outs, paint, moorage and other things. Currently have a Yamaha 33 and my family and I cruise on her in the summer through the Gulf Islands and up to Desolation Sound. I think that you could find a pretty nice boat for under $50K which you and your girlfriend could live on. I have spoken to the owner of the Union Steamship Company Marina on Bowen and he has some legal liveaboard spaces. Its the number of people he has approval for, not the size of boat. There is a per head surcharge for living aboard there. If you can find an older French boat with three cabins I think you'll be OK.


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## JimAndTricia (Feb 28, 2013)

Here's my two cents from one west coaster to another. 
If you want a floating condo and can work out the liveaboard situation so that you are secure in your location and liveaboard costs, then go ahead and buy it and HOPE that you can get away with $3,000 a year for upkeep costs. 
But......if you want to go offshore someday, run as fast as you can from this deal. It's way more than you can afford and it's way too much boat to single hand and look after by yourself. Look to spend the same overall amount (purchase plus upgrades) on a boat in the 32 to 38 foot range and you will actually be able to go sailing rather than be chained to a money pit. 
My wife and I have worked for 30 years and have owned a half dozen boats during that time, cruising 25,000 miles up and down the B.C. coast and Southeast Alaska. We how are lucky enough to own a 46 foot sailboat on which we are heading south this coming fall. Even though we can afford her and her upkeep (just), she still seems a bit more than we really need sometimes.
Much better to own a smaller great boat than a bigger mediocre boat.

So, I hope that was worth two cents.

Good luck and don't be in a rush to buy.


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