# Foulies - anything other than Musto worthwhile?



## sfchallenger (May 17, 2011)

Well hello sailors,

I'm in the market for some new and better foul weather gear. The new Musto HPX jacket is going for about $900 US, with bibs clocking in around $600. They also make a drysuit for about $1600, which doesn't seem like a terrible deal considering it's within $100 of the combined total of the other two pieces and seems likely to provide a higher level of comfort - with the drawback that in more moderate conditions it is a little less adaptable. Henri Lloyd, of which I've been a big fan for their inshore/coastal apparel makes an offshore jacket for a little less than the Musto, any experience here if it's up to the same task? Another consideration is the smock-type top, which again seems somewhat less adaptable in favorable conditions, but I'd think would have to be a lot more bomb-proof in adverse ones. 

Also, I've been looking at Grundens, a manufacturer of gear for commercial offshore fishing. Their outerwear looks like it probably isn't up to the task of being on deck for the duration that sailing is likely to require, but some of their mid and base layer stuff looks pretty decent for the $$$. Anyone have any experience with them?

So, what's your take? What do you wear offshore and what do you love and hate about it? I'm particularly interested in hearing from you Pacific Northwest folks! I may be participating in the Pacific Cup this year, but whether or not that comes to pass, I will be competing in OYRA events out of the SF Bay and have sufficiant long-term cruising aspirations to justify this expense in my own mind's eye. Appreciate the feedback in advance!

Thanks,
hugh


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

For example i have the better west marine set and while its fine 90% of the time that other 10% really sucks 

To me the question is will any two piece work as well as the dry-suit in that 10 % ?


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

If you've got the money to burn, buy the best foulies you can and don't look back. Second guessing your self (as in "could I have gotten something just as good for half the price?") could be a mite bit frustrating. Only you are going to be able to assess whether the extra $1K you spend on the Musto's as opposed to the West Marine (or other) set is really worth it.

As to that 10% that Tom pointed out: There are times when the weather just downright sucks, and you are forced to either take it on or admit defeat. There's a subtle difference between being uncomfortable and being at risk of becoming a hypothermia victim -- the challenge is to manage the risks, take preventative measures, and recognize when you have crossed the line from suck-ex to actual danger.


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## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

I have a West marine set and I find it works out well! You still have to watch what you do or how you wear it: it's not a space suit ! Just part of the equipment needed...Dale


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## HUGOSALT (Jun 15, 2004)

Gil coastal has served me well over the years including sailing 
winter here in northeast. 
Grunden foulies was my brothers choice when he fished commercially
in Alaska...he was very pleased...but as stated not ideal for sailing.

As an aside there is a thread on cruisers forum talking up an
inexpensive no name set of foulies for $85.(from Overstocked.com) have gotten very good reviews. I have ordered a set to keep on board for unsuspecting crew and a back up to my back up.
We shall see? Will advise when I receive.


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

Gill has a lifetime guarantee that actually works. The zipper blew out on my jacket and I sent it back (no receipt or any proof at all of where I got it) and they fixed it. This after the equivalent from Musto blew out a zipper and I had to buy a new one.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

sck5 said:


> Gill has a lifetime guarantee that actually works. The zipper blew out on my jacket and I sent it back (no receipt or any proof at all of where I got it) and they fixed it. This after the equivalent from Musto blew out a zipper and I had to buy a new one.


Okay, blowing out one zipper I could chalk up to manufacturer's defect. But two? dude, you just gotta admit, you are no longer a "medium."


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

The SN store (marine.com) sells the Gill gear - and has free shipping right now. You should check that out since they typically have great prices on stuff. For example, this off-shore jacket (http://shop.sailnet.com/foul-weather-gear-gill-offshore-cruising-c-181_1122_1961.html) is $60 less at SN than at West Marine. So definitely take a look.

Though these probably wouldn't work for you, I came across an insanely good deal on coastal foulies:

Nautical Foul Weather Set | Overstock.com

$85 for jacket AND bibs! I was a little skeptical at first, but figured I couldn't lose. I just got them in yesterday and they are actually very nice quality.

I sail mostly in the Gulf, so we don't have to deal with the bitter cold like you guys do. For the warmish kind of sailing, I don't think you could go wrong with these things.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Henry Loyd has good stuff, Gill too Helly Hansen too, lots of good stuff around....but if you want the better stuff you have to pay. Hi-tech materials, breathable and completely waterproof, are expensive.

Men's Sailing Clothing, Men's Yatching Gear, Sailing Jacket

Henri Lloyd Official Online Store

Men's Jackets - Skiing, Outdoor, Sailing & Training - Helly Hansen Official Online Store


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## HUGOSALT (Jun 15, 2004)

Yea, Smack that's what I ordered, sounds encouraging...
but probably not what sfchallenger is looking for.


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## sfchallenger (May 17, 2011)

Yes, I have West Marine foulies already, they are not appropriate for extended offshore use in these latitudes.

Thanks for the insight so far, I was looking at the Helly Hansen onesie last night, I forgot to mention them in the OP. Anyone own a onesie, in any make? What do you love and hate about it?

Cheers,
h


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

I've got Stormtech bibs and jacket. Seem to do the job and I got them half price which is always nice.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

hugh, 
I would strongly suggest trying the gear on. Pull the color and hood up, see which jacket gives you a snug fit but good visibility, because those two wil give you much better warmth & dryness when you have the collar up alone or with the hood.
No way to tell that without actually trying them on.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Another vote for Henri Lloyd. My Ocean Racer bib and jacket are still going strong after 27 years. 

Mind you I don't wear them much now in the Caribbean.


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## Kiltmadoc (Nov 10, 2009)

I just got the latest catalog from Sierra Trading post, and they have some "cold water fishing" gear from a company called bluestorm. They look like fancy-dancy gortex-type foulies to me. Regardless, the price seems right: Results for "bluestorm" up to 70% off at Sierra Trading Post


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

I have the Gill OS2 which is one level down from the set that Smackdaddy recommended. 
I am very happy with them, I only sail on the lakes but they are well made and in conditions where we are getting green water over the deck and some times over my head they keep me dry. My old set did not so I went out and bought these.
The OS1 would be even better. I think they would be worth a look.

Gary


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

I have had good service from my Helly Hansen foulies, a one piece and another just a jacket. I need to replace them as they are 17 years old and are starting to leak...luckily I'm not in a cold wet place anymore...but there will come a time...


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Yeah there is better stuff out there. For starters STOP looking at "boating" and "sailing" gear.

All but the most expensive foul weather gear will either breathable-ish but not waterproof (durable water repellent) or will be waterproof but NOT breathable (Grundings PVC). Gore-Tex breathable foulies can be had starting at $800

Check our REI and other outdoor retailers and look at hiking, skiing, and snow-mobiling clothing. It is MUCH cheaper and the competition is greater because those markets are bigger.

For example check out these absolutely top of the line 3layer Gore-Tex bibs. They sport, fully taped seams, full length watertight leg zips (to cool you down and for ease of getting in and out) that also have a built in butt and knee pads. Can be found for around $300. Mind you that's the top of the heap, with all the bells and whistles priced gear. The North Face and other companies make nice bibs and jackets for less. "Boating" gear is just too marked up.

=http://www.klim.com/en-us/shop/snow/outerwear/gore-tex/3178-000









Stay warm. Stay dry.
MedSailor


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## Cherp (Aug 3, 2011)

Hhmmm. If you need top end foul weather gear you must be a racer, sitting in an exposed cockpit or up on the rail to weather. If you need it when cruising you probably need to rethink your shelter arrangements. We added a hard dodger and a bimini attached to it to stopmwind and spray in cold weather. Now we rarely use foulies of any sort.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

One of the big sailing magazines (Cruising World, Sail, can't remember offhand which one) last year did a spread on what a number of people (most whose names you'd know) wore for foul weather gear. At least a third used no-name gear, or at least not the usual gear marketed to boaters (HH, Gill, etc). They seemed perfectly happy, were just as dry and spent much less.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

SFChallenger, 
The top shelf stuff at REI will be just as expensive as the top sailing brands. I've never sailed with anyone wearing HPX musto's. They're probably the most expensive set you can get. Do you drive a Ferrari? Maybe you need to find a Lexus brand of foulies to suit your needs. Or a Chevy, Honda, etc. 

For lightweight foulies and mid layers, I'd looking into anything cheap from Target, REI, or any other store. 

I'm using HL offshore bibs and jacket. I've been very happy how they preform. I picked them up as "last year's models" for 1/2 of what they were advertised for. I've never met anyone who has spend over $1,000 on foulies. If they're on a boat that requires that kind of investment, there are pro's on board and the owner is picking up the tab. If you want stuff that's better than 90% of others have, the Musto MPX are very popular. 

I will tell you offshore you need a good stupid high collar on the jacket. The bibs need to be of solid construction. Zippers are not waterproof, get a jacket that has a double storm flap zipper. The water risistant ones are ok for inshore spray, they have no business on serious ocean gear. The bibs with zippers down the side will leak after the 2nd big wave you take. And we all know, zippers break. On day 2 of a 15 day trip, what are you going to do, tape em back together? You're in the fackin ocean mate. You're going to be cold and wet for the next week and a half. 

If you go sailing in a climate controlled bubble of canvas dodgers and biminis and have never spent the night clipped in on the rail eating waves in down right scary condition, please do not comment on how well your $50 jacket is working out in the caribbean. Apples and oranges.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

bljones said:


> Okay, blowing out one zipper I could chalk up to manufacturer's defect. But two? dude, you just gotta admit, you are no longer a "medium."


Not true - the same thing keeps happening to ME. It's those Chinese factories - they are gradually making all the original sizes smaller and smaller to save on material.

The proof is in the fact that clothes of all kinds just keep getting tighter and tighter as the years pass.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

zz4gta said:


> SFChallenger,
> The top shelf stuff at REI will be just as expensive as the top sailing brands. I've never sailed with anyone wearing HPX musto's. They're probably the most expensive set you can get. Do you drive a Ferrari? Maybe you need to find a Lexus brand of foulies to suit your needs. Or a Chevy, Honda, etc.
> 
> For lightweight foulies and mid layers, I'd looking into anything cheap from Target, REI, or any other store.
> ...


With all due respect I completely disagree with most of what you're saying here. For starters the notion that "for serious ocean work...." to me is just marketing. Marketing to fear.

Fact of the matter is, that unless you're racing on a Volvo boat, planing at 18kts in the roaring 50s, you're going to be much wetter inshore than offshore. Inshore is where you don't have the sea room to run off, so you have to go to weather in that SCA. Inshore is where it's shallow and there is an opposing current creating those tall, short period, confused seas that slap around, cause you to bury your bow and get you wet. So why is "inshore" gear less quality than "offshore" gear?

Cherp nailed it right on the head. What kind of foulies you need are determined by your boat and the type of sailing you do. I've been on the big, scary offshore when it was a milk pond (with swells) and on a boat that wasn't wet. I was wearing shorts and Tevas. Most times I've gotten seriously wet was near-shore either by being somewhere I shouldn't be, or when racing. The wettest I ever got was in a gale in the straits of Juan de Fuca that cracked the hull of my wooden boat and I got wet though a top of the line industrial/offshore Danish PVC fisherman's deck suit. (there was no english anywhere to be found on the labels) All other times I have gotten wet were while racing.

My boat, for example, has a clipper bow with lots of overhang and tonnes of flare. I pay for it in unusable length, and in moorage but she is an EXTREMELY dry boat. If my boat and an IOR boat were in the same waters at the same time, you'd need better foulies on the IOR boat. Add in racing and being on the foredeck rounding the windward mark, and you'll need better foulies than you'd ever need offshore.

I also disagree that the top of the line REI, motorcyle, or snowmobile gear costs the same as the top sailing gear. You want gore-tex in sailing gear, look at the Musto MPX that was mentioned. $600 for the jacket, and $600 for the bibs. I've also seen "ocean" jackets for sale for $1,000 (Henry Lloyd I think). That snow-mobiling bib I posted was HALF as expensive and DOES have waterproof, full length leg zips, knee pads etc. Waterproof zips are an expensive feature and are much better than storm flaps. (BTW the quickest way to dump heat after grinding a winch is to zip the side leg zips down to the knees for a few minutes.)

REI mountaineering, backcountry skiing, and motorcylce jackets have stupid-high collars and have every bit as much and more engineering designed into them to keep the wind, rain, snow, and cold out. Who do you think is relying on his gear more to keep him alive: the ocean racer than can go below and change clothes and warm up some soup, or the mountaineer ice climbing above 8 hours above the paltry comforts his tent, let along real safety? That same gear is available to us, for half the price of "offshore rated" sailing gear.

Do most people need even $300 Gore-Tex bibs or jacket? Probably not. Like Cherp said, look at your boat, your bow shape, cockpit design, if you have a dodger or not and mostly look at the sailing you do. If you have an IOR boat, and or like to race, it's going to be wet and you're going to be sweating, so you might as well buy the good stuff. If you have a Hans Christian with a dodger, don't race, lines are led aft, and prefer to go downwind, you won't need the "Offshore rated" stuff, even if you plan to go around the globe twice. "offshore rated", like 1/2 the safety gear out there, is just another way to extract money from those who fear going offshore more than they should.

MedSailor


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I just use the heavy PVC commercial stuff, Alaska fishermen know how to stay dry and warm. No it isn't "breathable" and maybe in a warm, humid, climate that might be nice but here in the PNW not really necessary. I have a light set of breathable rain gear to wear during the summer in the rain but the rest of the year (7-8 months) it's the Grundens or Helly with my XtraTuff boots, or if it's really cold my Muck Arctic boots and Gore Tex ski gloves. Of course, with a pilothouse, sailing in the rain is an optional thing for me)


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

MedSailor, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Buy the best for tyour needs*

Lot's of good info here, but here is my two cents. I live in New England and the PNW has similar temp water and is generally wet/damp. If you are truly going offshore, I mean more than 8 h from land/port, you will want/need heavy-duty true off-shore stuff. You will have to spend some $$, but a good set will last a long time. Going half-ass and skimping on FWG, especially if your planning off-shore adventures, short-sided and could cause a life-threatening condition if it fails at the wrong time.

I have three sets of foulies; Gore-tex Henri Lloyd Ocean Jacket/bibs, West Marine "Coastal" bibs, and Gill Coastal and Henri Lloyd jackets, and at summer set for very light and warm conditions. The Henri Lloyd Ocean set was given to me by someone getting out of boating, but it was in excess of $1000 new. The summer set is basically wind pants and a light weight tight weave nylon jacket.

When it's nasty out, Wind/Wet/Splash, nothing beats the Gore-Tex set, but they are heavy and bulky which makes them tiring to wear, but I have used them during a 8 h 40 deg F pouring rain delivery in moderate seas. I was dry after the sail delivery.

I use my coastal stuff mostly, even in winter, and it works well in most instances, but it gets saturated in heavy rains or extended (3+ h) rains. I wouldn't use it off-shore for anything more than 4 h in any type of moderate to heavy weather.

My summer stuff is mostly a collection of lightweight Windstopper, "gore-Tex" like water proof membranes, and water-repellency coated nylon. Most of this stuff is EMS, REI-type of gear that I also use when bike riding or hiking It works best in wind weather for the occasion spray or light, warm rain.

The "Grudings" fishing foulies are will keep you "dry", but you will get clammy and eventually cold. Many folks don't realize that fisherman are constantly moving and therefore keeping "warm" due to activity. The same is not true for sailing where you could be working hard for a several minutes, and then inactive for a length of time. During the inactivity time, all the "sweat" that you generated during activity doesn't "breath" through the PVC, so you will start to feel clammy and then you may start to feel cold. Bottom line it has it's place, but I wouldn't use it for a primary sailing off-shore sailing suit.

For true Off-shore stuff, you don't need Gore-Tex, but I do recommend a heavy duty cloth with a tight weave and a good water repellency treatment. Also good boating foulies, as opposed to high-performance climbing, cycling, hiking clothes, have features specific for boating such has high back and front bibs, self-drain pockets, double flap pockets, abrasion pads on butt, elbows and knees, wrist seals, etc. West Marine's Off-Shore stuff is pretty decent stuff IMHO and I wouldn't be afraid to use it in anything except the most nasty stuff (Ocean Racing), but I probably wouldn't be sailing in that anyway. The WM stuff is decent for most stuff people sail in and less costly than HL, Musto, etc. stuff.

DrB


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

My favourite foulie gear is my Helley Hansen Offshore bib. Warm, waterproof, breathable with Kevlar butt and knees. As the previous years model, I got them for a 1/3 of retail. I could not afford the HH jacket, so I wear a Gill Atlantic jacket.

In 2010, I brought a Vic Maui boat without dodger back to the PNW. Even with lots of water over the bow I stayed nice and dry.

I also still have my old HH coastal gear which I wear occasionally.


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Though these probably wouldn't work for you, I came across an insanely good deal on coastal foulies:
> 
> Nautical Foul Weather Set | Overstock.com
> 
> ...


I echo these comments. I bought an xl and medium to leave on the boat for guests, but they're definitely nice enough to be primaries. Very good kit.


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## DoubleEnder (Mar 8, 2011)

BCC1 said:


> I echo these comments. I bought an xl and medium to leave on the boat for guests, but they're definitely nice enough to be primaries. Very good kit.


I just received mine yesterday. It was going to be just for a spare but they may now be the primary. Seems to be very good quality. And looks to be made in Germany.

So they get a Thumbs UP!!!

Brian


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

DoubleEnder said:


> I just received mine yesterday. It was going to be just for a spare but they may now be the primary. Seems to be very good quality. And looks to be made in Germany.
> 
> So they get a Thumbs UP!!!
> 
> Brian


No, they are made in China. The German lettering is on them because they are distributed by Tchibo, a German coffee chain (the German version of Starbucks). For reasons lost in history, about 20 years ago Tchibo started selling all kinds of stuff, like down duvets, microwave ovens, underwear and anything else you can think of, none of it having to do with coffee (although they still sell a lot of that, too). All of it one-off and usually cheap and reasonably good quality. They may have overestimated the size of the sailing market and had to offload the FWG to overstock.com.

Having said all that, I got my jacket and bib yesterday and am thrilled with it. Ain't Henri Lloyd but very, very serviceable. For the price, it is an absolute steal.


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## sfbaysailing (Sep 21, 2011)

*overstock foulies*

hey, does anyone know how the sizing on the overstock foulies runs? I'm not sure if I should get a medium or a large, and was wondering if anyone that has received a set could let me know about the sizing.
Thanks!
greg


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## DoubleEnder (Mar 8, 2011)

> No, they are made in China


My bad! 

I believed the upc code told the story of where things were made. And it came back as a German origin. Perhaps another urban myth exposed.

Still an awesome buy!


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

sfbaysailing said:


> hey, does anyone know how the sizing on the overstock foulies runs? I'm not sure if I should get a medium or a large, and was wondering if anyone that has received a set could let me know about the sizing.
> Thanks!
> greg


See if this helps.....I'm 6'3"/215# and the xl is very roomy. Son is 6'2"/200 and the medium works, but is on the smallish side. If I was getting it specifically for him or me, would go Large.

So, I think it fits slightly big. Sized for typical European build, not Asian.


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## sfbaysailing (Sep 21, 2011)

BCC,

Thanks for the info, that's exactly what I needed to know!
cheers!
greg


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## Globalksp (May 6, 2012)

smackdaddy said:


> Though these probably wouldn't work for you, I came across an insanely good deal on coastal foulies:
> 
> Nautical Foul Weather Set | Overstock.com
> 
> $85 for jacket AND bibs! I was a little skeptical at first, but figured I couldn't lose. I just got them in yesterday and they are actually very nice quality.


Now out of stock


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

You did reply to a year old through, so I'm not surprised that they are out of stock.

Since I'm hear I'll say that if you are buying a drysuit that you should get a Kokatat Goretex suit. They have the best warranty in the world and keep supporting and fixing them nearly forever. They are primarily made for kayaking, but I use mine for sailing as "the **** hit the fan" foul weather gear and it works very well.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

My Henri Lloyd Ocean Racer jacket and bib trouses were bought in 1988 after cheaper stuff failed to keep me warm and dry.

Most expensive clothes I ever bought but also cheaper than all the other foulweather gear if you look at how long they have lasted. Yup I am still wearing them. 

Mind you not often as I sail in the Caribbean.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Globalksp said:


> Now out of stock


Bummer. I still have them. Though in all the racing I've done, I've only used the jacket once I think.

Still, they are great - insanely great for the price.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

TQA said:


> My Henri Lloyd Ocean Racer jacket and bib trouses were *bought in 1988* after cheaper stuff failed to keep me warm and dry.
> 
> Most expensive clothes I ever bought but also cheaper than all the other foulweather gear if you look at how long they have lasted. Yup I am still wearing them.
> 
> Mind you not often as I sail in the Caribbean.


Are they neon??? Got pictures?? :laugher

MedSailor


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"My Henri Lloyd Ocean Racer jacket and bib trouses were bought in 1988 after cheaper stuff failed to keep me warm and dry."
Same here, although as I recall the bib pants and jacket are from different lines, they are the same classic bright yellow, the year before "neon" was brought out. The color is now rather gray compared to what bright yellow used to be, and I'm afraid that even after soaking with ArmorAll one of these days the plastic is just going to crack because it feels stiffer than I remember.
Still, I trust it in extreme weather more than I trust my beloved newer GoreTex. Which wins hands-down in heat and humidity.


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## jnorten (Aug 18, 2009)

I've found lots of good sailing equipment at my local farm supply store.

Here's an example of foulies:

Tingley Rubber Men's Icon Rain Jacket (Size: Small) at Blain's Farm & Fleet

The description says that it's a rubber coat. It is NOT--read the details...it's breathable material. I was in the store the other day and tried on this coat. It compares to some of the higher end stuff that has been discussed here.

For what it's worth--right now I use a Patagonia shell up top. When it's cold, I wear a heavy fleece underneath. For pants, it's cheap Wal-Mart Pants for about $10 that get replaced when they tear.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I know the OP is quite old, but noticed the MUSTO brand at West Marine last weekend and the offshore jacket they had said it was specifically made for WM on the label. $400. It was pretty nice.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I was on a delivery from Bermuda to CT and one of the guys had the best of the best of everything. He was a highly competitive NYC corporate raider so money was no option.
I had my discounted West Marine gear and I was pretty wet.

The problem we all had was that it was hot but we were still getting green water over the bow every now and then. Farr 395.

When it seemed like it was safe we would open the front of or top.

Of course you know where this is going.
A wave would wash over the boat and soak us completely, even rich guy.
Of course then we would be cold and wet and miserable.


If it was cold the good stuff may have made a difference.

A change of clothes was the the best solution.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Dry is first priority. Warm is second.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Had one piece years ago. PIA when called on deck for a few minutes ( sail change or reefing). When tired and need to go up and down two piece set up is better. Just take off jacket /boots if down below. Wear just bibs if needed for warmth.Deal with bibs only if going to head. Any of the offshore/ocean stuff with three layers are good. One layer stuff good for daysailing only. If spending bucks on two layer stuff might as well go for three. Used one piece suit made for oil rig guys with closed cell foam as middle layer (Imhoff) for cold weather sailing in storms. Liked it a lot. Can't find that model now. Much better than thermal suit as could still wear my fancy Irish boots and hands were free. Now using the Gill ocean stuff (3layers). A bit cheaper than Musto and like the collar/hood set up better. Have small Gill thermal cap with wire in the brim. Fits just right under hood and I can see even with glasses/goggles on when I turn my head. my 2 cents


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Would say go to store like Newport One or the like. Don't buy anything without bringing your boots and gloves when putting it on and going through the motions. Admiral got the fancy Gill stuff as well but hates the jacket as the band that goes across her lower face annoys her. Hits her nose just wrong.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

davidpm said:


> Of course you know where this is going.
> A wave would wash over the boat and soak us completely, even rich guy.
> Of course then we would be cold and wet and miserable.


I wonder why he didn't stuff his foulies with $100s? The insulating power of a Franklin (even when wet) is not to be underestimated. 

MedSailor


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The key to the right clothing is LAYERS. No one piece of ridiculously expensive clothing is going be sufficient. The layers need to be high tech fleece materials but nothing says they need to be priced with the "marine" label. As far as a water barrier, IMO high tech fabrics are a waste of money and mostly a marketing ploy.


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

MedSailor said:


> Yeah there is better stuff out there. For starters STOP looking at "boating" and "sailing" gear.
> 
> All but the most expensive foul weather gear will either breathable-ish but not waterproof (durable water repellent) or will be waterproof but NOT breathable (Grundings PVC). Gore-Tex breathable foulies can be had starting at $800
> 
> ...


I will add that everything I've bought from that MFR: Klim has been really, REALLY well made. I don't use it on the boat, on a dirt bike but I do live in it for weeks at a time. I really like the idea of using their other stuff for boating as well.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"IMO high tech fabrics are a waste of money and mostly a marketing ploy."
Spoken by someone who has either never spent time in heat and humidity, or someone who has an incredibly high tolerance for them and never notices.
Those of us who are bothered a bit more by a sauna, find that GoreTex really works. Works damn well, and keeps you much drier and more comfortable inside than any fancy plastic or rubber garment would. Generally it is not as rugged as classic foulies, but it really does work, within the limits of what it is intended to do.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> "IMO high tech fabrics are a waste of money and mostly a marketing ploy."
> Spoken by someone who has either never spent time in heat and humidity, or someone who has an incredibly high tolerance for them and never notices.
> Those of us who are bothered a bit more by a sauna, find that GoreTex really works. Works damn well, and keeps you much drier and more comfortable inside than any fancy plastic or rubber garment would. Generally it is not as rugged as classic foulies, but it really does work, within the limits of what it is intended to do.


ABSOLUTELY. Last summer I wore my HH / Gill foulies all the way from Maui to Juan de Fuca. In small seas, I wore just the pants, when the seas built and I needed to stay dry I wore the jacket as well.

I stayed dry all the time. In the heat I stayed cool. When I needed warmth I went with my hi-tech polypropylene underwear and fleece.

I had a PVC suit when I started sailing. It was a portable sauna.

My HH pants have a Kevlar seat and knees - very durable.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

hellosailor said:


> "IMO high tech fabrics are a waste of money and mostly a marketing ploy."
> Spoken by someone who has either never spent time in heat and humidity, or someone who has an incredibly high tolerance for them and never notices.
> Those of us who are bothered a bit more by a sauna, find that GoreTex really works. Works damn well, and keeps you much drier and more comfortable inside than any fancy plastic or rubber garment would. Generally it is not as rugged as classic foulies, but it really does work, within the limits of what it is intended to do.


High tech "breathable" fabrics are effective when there is a large humidity differential between the sweaty interior and the dryer exterior. Moisture wants to travel from wet to dry, warm to cold. These fabrics are most effective for hiking in places with low humidity which is what they were developed for. They are MUCH less useful in the humid climates found near sea level and certainly on boats where, in case you haven't noticed, it is usually humid. I have had many pieces of Goretex clothing. They eventually soak through and become sodden and useless, even when used for hiking in the East where the humidity tends to be higher. IMO, the price is just not worth it. You are better off with good quality impervious raingear. I carry a full length Goretex insulated jacket which is useful for really cold weather but it will not shed water like my Helly Hansen standard rain gear.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Hi tech gear needs care. I wash mine in an industrial front end machine witb a product that restores the waterproofing.

I have worn it from Maui (20.8N) to Cape Scott (50.4N)

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 4


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

jackdale said:


> Hi tech gear needs care. I wash mine in an industrial front end machine witb a product that restores the waterproofing.
> 
> I have worn it from Maui (20.8N) to Cape Scott (50.4N)
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 4


Jack, what product do you find best to re-waterproof your Goretex? I have a non-insulated Goretex raincoat that still looks good but has almost completely lost its ability to shed rain.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

I use Grainger's waterproofing. 

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 4


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Think zippers are always problematic. In other activities water comes at you from the front. When sailing it comes at you every which way. Have fancy dan motorcycle gear with zippers up the sides. Keeps me dry tooling down the road at 70+mph in driving rain. Wore it once on the boat. When I took it off line of wet under the zippers. Might wear boiled wool but no other natural fibers. Wear wicking small clothes and mid layer under my foulies. Never wear killer cotton. Cotton undies = passage pimples. Even sailing through the fog down Maine or 100% humidity any of the 3 layer ocean rated foulies will work just fine. Use wash and rinse products bought at REI keeps foulies working fine. Rinse foulies in fresh water ASAP after a cruise. Think activity specific high quality foulies worth every penny. If you have a week or two where you only take them off for the call of nature think you will feel the same.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Dunno, smurph. My "extreme wet weather" guaranteed Gore-Tex has done very well at sea level in muggy weather. But I will tell you, never, never, ever, sit down on a heated car seat with a wet Gore-Tex jacket. The heat drives the water from the outside right back INside.

But then again, when I complained about that to Gore, they determined the Gore-Tex had failed (after I mailed it in to them) and they were fast to offer me a replacement at no charge. With your raincoat, I'd suggest calling Gore. They'll go over use and care and "proper" treatments for it, and if it needs more than some routine care, they'll replace it for you.

Yeah, I know, we pay for that in the price up front. But it certainly is nice service.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

IMHO as with most things, you can buy once and cry once, or buy cheap, and cry everytime you use it. Holds true for sails, rigging, tools, etc. 

I don't know where you guys are shopping, but no one pays the $800 retail for a gore-tex jacket. You save up, and catch these items on sale, or buy last year's models for 1/2 the price. Shop around. 

The REI stuff is great for 90% of the sailors out there. But if you do serious offshore racing or deliveries, you should go for the stuff that was designed for harsh sailing. 

And please don't think that a bargin bin $80 jacket will provide the same features and comfort that a $400 jacket would. Compare apples to apples.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

hellosailor said:


> Dunno, smurph. My "extreme wet weather" guaranteed Gore-Tex has done very well at sea level in muggy weather. But I will tell you, never, never, ever, sit down on a heated car seat with a wet Gore-Tex jacket. The heat drives the water from the outside right back INside.
> 
> But then again, when I complained about that to Gore, they determined the Gore-Tex had failed (after I mailed it in to them) and they were fast to offer me a replacement at no charge. With your raincoat, I'd suggest calling Gore. They'll go over use and care and "proper" treatments for it, and if it needs more than some routine care, they'll replace it for you.
> 
> Yeah, I know, we pay for that in the price up front. But it certainly is nice service.


The jacket I mentioned is 20+ years old. Although it is still in good shape and not covered with epoxy and paint like most of my boat clothes, I wouldn't expect them to guarantee it that long. I will try the Granger's waterproofing as Jack posted. Thanks for the info Jack.
I do have a Kokotat Goretex dry top that is, of course, completely waterproof but it seems like much heavier material than either of the jackets. Have tried using the dry top on deck but it usually gets too hot and the neoprene neck and wrist gaskets are wicked uncomfortable.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

When I was sea kayaking the Maine Island Trail back in the 90's I started with a "waterproof" but non-breathable Kokatat dry suit. The thing was a personal sauna, utterly unbearable and totally disgusting. Within 5-10 minutes I was wetter inside the suit than outside. That dry suit lasted all of three-four trips before I sold it at a huge loss. I then sprung for the Gore-Tex version of the same exact suit (about $700.00 clams at the time). The difference inside the suit was ASTOUNDING.... I was dry, comfortable (well as comfortable as can be expected in a dry suit) and paddled literally 500-700 miles in it during times when the waters were still dangerously cold, all in a "high humidity" environment. The fabric performed exceptionally well...

I also have a Todd Bibler single wall breathable mountaineering tent and bivy sack. The net experts expounded on how they can't or won't work in the East yet we have used that tent, even in the summers, and the interior has always been 100% bone dry and is does exactly what the fabric was intended to do, breathe... Even did an early March trip to Isle Au Haut and used the Bibler in a pouring rain, bordering on ice, storm. Three people in that tent and we were bone dry... I will never go back to a double walled non-breathable tent for winter mountaineering..

As a commercial lobsterman I wore Grundens because they were cheap and somewhat durable (I could chew through about four pair of bibs in a season). They were utterly disgusting to wear, wetter inside than out, but it kept the "fish stink" off you.....

You could not pay me to wear a PVC sauna suit for sailing. Kind of like dusting off the old buggy whip...

That said I do not wear "sailing gear" like Musto, Gill etc. (I do own it but it is pretty dusty). I find climbing apparel piles more comfortable and MUCH better designed for freedom of movement.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Maine Sail said:


> When I was sea kayaking the Maine Island Trail back in the 90's I started with a "waterproof" but non-breathable Kokatat dry suit. The thing was a personal sauna, utterly unbearable and totally disgusting. Within 5-10 minutes I was wetter inside the suit than outside. That dry suit lasted all of three-four trips before I sold it at a huge loss. I then sprung for the Gore-Tex version of the same exact suit (about $700.00 clams at the time). The difference inside the suit was ASTOUNDING.... I was dry, comfortable (well as comfortable as can be expected in a dry suit) and paddled literally 500-700 miles in it during times when the waters were still dangerously cold, all in a "high humidity" environment. The fabric performed exceptionally well...
> 
> I also have a Todd Bibler single wall breathable mountaineering tent and bivy sack. The net experts expounded on how they can't or won't work in the East yet we have used that tent, even in the summers, and the interior has always been 100% bone dry and is does exactly what the fabric was intended to do, breathe... Even did an early March trip to Isle Au Haut and used the Bibler in a pouring rain, bordering on ice, storm. Three people in that tent and we were bone dry... I will never go back to a double walled non-breathable tent for winter mountaineering..
> 
> ...


I used to be a member of MITA and actually helped them edit the guide one year. Used to do a lot of sea kayaking around the Deer Isle area when I lived in NH but never did the entire MIT. 
I agree that mountain gear is good for sailing. I mean, if you had to buy a set of Goretex stuff for every sport, it would cost a fortune. I have an old Bean Maine Warden's jacket that comes in very handy on the boat when it's cold. It's really rugged, has Thinsulate type insulation and tends to stay dry for quite a long time. The only way to stay really dry is with a drysuit but, as I said they're uncomfortable as hell. My sailing clothes selection is a combination of hiking, whitewater/kayak, and sailing gear.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Agree with all of the above. To the extent you can stay out of a chandlery you save money. Use fishing/hunting stuff while sailing. But it's under a set of high tech purpose built foulies with Dubarries on my feet. Struck by how much free time you guys have. I don't have enough time to get the sailing in I want to do. Can't wait to move on the boat fulltime and just cruise. Boy am I jealous.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The first time I wore a set of warm dry Woolrich forest camo GoreTex pants on a boat, I swore that was because I planned to go duck hunting on the way. Spent all of about $50 instead of $300, do I really care if they aren't hi-viz color? They're warm, they're dry, they're eminently affordable. And they stayed that way, through green water.


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## EliotR (Oct 23, 2011)

I'm planning in sailing from Newport, RI to Tortola in late October. What do I need for Foulies? Does anyone have used for sale?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Weather can range from 85 hot and humid to 25 and snowing that time of the year. It's a tough mission to have the right combination of clothes. Layers. Have plenty of dry non-cotton long underwear as well as shorts and short sleeves, fleece in different weights, stuff you can peel off and put on as conditions change. Have a good windbreaker. Sometimes my boat looks as if a clothes bomb went off when sailing in spring or fall. Most of the time, roomy single layer rain gear is best so layers can be adjusted underneath. A heavy, insulated rain jacket is no good when it's hot although, as I mentioned above, the Goretex LL Bean Maine Wardens Jacket is mighty nice if it's cold. It's colder and damper on the water than in the mountains so at 40 degrees on a boat a winter weight jacket is a welcome piece of clothing.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Eliot, good used foulies--good dry ones--may not be likely since folks tend to keep them forever if they are any good. You might find something in a secondhand store in Newport but that's cutting it close.

Newport and Tortola will be very different climates but you might get away with a good GoreTex uninsulated or lightweight shell, which would work in Tortola, and enough space to add some good wool or synthetic layers under it to keep you warm in Newport. Along with thermal pants or synthetic overpants. And of course a good wool watch cap.

The way that a hood and wind collar fit can be a huge difference offshore in wind, so if your budget allows for it at all, go shopping, find a jacket that fits your head and neck snugly to retain the heat and keep water and wind out. Personally I'd call that the most crucial fit, because there is plenty of "waterproof" gear these days. Camping outlets like sierratradingpost and stores like Cabelas often have sale merchandise that will do quite well for the occasional sailor, well below marine prices.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

If you'll be outside at all, then opt for the serious good gear.


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## sully75 (Jun 17, 2013)

I interviewed with Eric Forsyth about going on his current trip. I asked him about what to get for gear and he said "I don't spend a lot." I think he said he spends a couple of hundred on the west marine stuff. If it's good enough for Antarctica ...

Then again he's British.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Found L.L.Bean pants made to wear under waders on sale. Fleece inside and slippery water proof outside. Theywere on sale. Perfect under foulies and get to wear them fishing.


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