# How bluewater capable is the Cape Dory 25?



## bryan062087 (May 27, 2012)

Looking for some informative/honest input on how bluewater capable a Cape Dory 25 is or could be (with modifications).

Is the hull design sound/seaworthy? It is not an Alberg design like the 25d. How much of a pounding can the hull take? Any problem with stress, spider cracks? Whats the longevity of the fiberglass construction like?

Is the outboard motor and no option for an inboard diesel a huge limiting factor?

Is the rigging and mast strength acceptable or strong enough only for daysailing and mild weather conditions.

Is the 3 foot draft too short?

Thanks.


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## bryan062087 (May 27, 2012)

Well I think I posted too soon. I found my answer in this thread The Cape Dory Board • View topic - Cape Dory 25 and offshore cruising

In case anyone else is wondering.

However, if anyone has any more opinions I would like to hear them as well.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I think the question others here will ask of you first is; Are you "blue water" capable?  3ft draft is not very inspiring to me. It's a small boat! But then, even rowboats have done "blue water"


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

Blue water capable and doing blue water are a lot different. Blue water capability demands a lot of space for water, food and other needs, and a stiff enough boat. A 25 ft boat is hardly blue water capable.


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## bryan062087 (May 27, 2012)

What kind of bad weather can the CD 25 take?

Could it survive a knockdown?


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## souljour2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

celenoglu said:


> Blue water capable and doing blue water are a lot different. Blue water capability demands a lot of space for water, food and other needs, and a stiff enough boat. A 25 ft boat is hardly blue water capable.


I'd venture to say i'd rather be in a Cape Dory 25 with that 3-foot draft in a big force 10 blow than alot of 30-footers that have 5-foot draft fin keel...this is because of the narrow beam and elongated keel of the cape Dory should make her easier to hold her bow into the waves...she won't fall off as much .I have no desire to be in any boat in a force 10 though...should make that clear.


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

celenoglu said:


> Blue water capable and doing blue water are a lot different. Blue water capability demands a lot of space for water, food and other needs, and a stiff enough boat. A 25 ft boat is hardly blue water capable.


Add 2 feet. At least this 27′ Albin-Vega did pretty good. Full story here.

Although, one needs to admit, it kinds of looks a bit ugly at the end.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

There are definitely alot of opinions about what is and what is not "blue water capable".

I suggest you check out this site

Introduction to the junk-rigged Corribee Mingming

21 or 22 ft boat modified for serious offshore work. says he carries stores for 70+ days, no gismos and gadgets, just pure hardcore small boat sailing.

Also check out

sailFar.net

lots of small offshore boats & sailors there too.

As others have mentioned, are you up to offshore work in a 25ft boat?

I am going to try it in an Alberg 30.......I think I am ready


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## gbaratta (Nov 3, 2009)

Add Content


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## gdecon (Mar 13, 2000)

Isn''t makiing grand statements based on complete ignorance bliss !



celenoglu said:


> Blue water capable and doing blue water are a lot different. Blue water capability demands a lot of space for water, food and other needs, and a stiff enough boat. A 25 ft boat is hardly blue water capable.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

Gee, gdecon, pretty old thread to be dredging up with a flame. I think all celenoglu was saying is that you can make a small boat unsinkable, but, it won't necessarily be a good boat to sail across an ocean. I'm guessing some have taken the CD25 on some good long passages.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

souljour2000 said:


> this is because of the narrow beam and elongated keel of the cape Dory should make her easier to hold her bow into the waves...she won't fall off as much


I think even by 2012 heavy weather thinking had changed from bow to wind to running off, if the sea room is available. It's a pretty indisputable fact that trying to keep one's bow to wind in extreme heavy weather puts one's rudder at risk.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Having been forced to run in big seas, the force of each wave behind you can put considerable strain on the rudder as well, I'm not convinced it's any better or worse as far as the rudder is concerned. However, strain to almost everything else on the boat is better when running.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Engine floods in any kind of following sea. Then useless. Boats tender so often had rail down. Boats wet in a seaway or even brisk sailing. Berths not suitable for sleeping in a seaway. Due to large overhangs digs and stalls when overcome with green water. No easy way to do dedicated storm sails. 
I owned one of these very early in my sailing career. I used it coastal in Massachusetts Bay with occasional trip to Maine. I mostly singled her. She’s a fine coastal boat and safe in a brief line squall or T storm but not at all suitable for passage. 
personal short list would be
BCC28 or Channel cutter 34
albin Vega 
small Morris (26- 36’)
small contest (28 or 32 or 34)
pogo
I survived a three day storm (then fell to gale for another 3 days) in a Hinckley pilot so that’s on my personal list as well but may not belong there. 
Most boats of this era had significant overhangs giving little or nothing to lwl so slow in light air and a difficult ride in heavy weather. Also quite narrow but unlike Perry’s Sliver not that easily driven. Depending on particular design AVS could be reasonable but due to low form stability truly life on a slant. I don’t know if the CD25 is above the obligate 120-130* angle of vanishing stability for blue water work. I never fully knocked her down with the mast wet. I did get the house wet in a gust and she took a scary minute or so to come back. Would be very reluctant to go offshore in this design.

Suggest you look at Gz curves for any boat you consider. Pay attention to AVS and the area in the negative portion of the curve. Also pay attention to hull speed and tankage. Some also look at comfort quotient although I’m not a big believer in that.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Would mention had occasion to surf my Tayana on Bermuda race for hours. Scary as hell. Constant attention to not broach. Once boat is going as fast as water under it no effect from the rudder. Have dropped running from my heavy weather list if I’m going to end up surfing a lot. There is virtually no strain on the rudder when surfing. It’s great fun to surf a boat in a controlled setting but not as a heavy weather technique once you’re surfing a lot . My list now is
reef to maximum degree
then bare poles with Jordan series drogue
have also dropped hove to except for a break to get our act together for upcoming nasties.
for line squalls usually can just sail on reefed. Sometimes will go to 60-80* and ease sheets or head up to luff in strong gusts but continue to make way so you have steerage. Back when I had the CD25 after a few bad times just didn’t go sailing if any significant weather was a possibility. The other technique I use now I don’t race is the engine. As long as the weather isn’t going to be a multiday event it’s surprisingly comfortable to just make a few knots at around 60 degrees and wait for it to pass. The gross unreliability of the outboard on the CD eliminates this possibility.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Lazerbrains said:


> Having been forced to run in big seas, the force of each wave behind you can put considerable strain on the rudder as well, I'm not convinced it's any better or worse as far as the rudder is concerned. However, strain to almost everything else on the boat is better when running.


It's more about falling backwards off a wave and having the rudder break free from its restraints and going hard over while falling backwards. No way running puts more strain than that.


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## hnash53 (Aug 18, 2017)

The 1961 Cal 20 "Black Feathers" did the TransPac race from San Francisco to Hawaii in 2008... with no engine use.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

hnash53 said:


> The 1961 Cal 20 "Black Feathers" did the TransPac race from San Francisco to Hawaii in 2008... with no engine use.


There is a saying that an old lady in a bathtub can make the run from the west coast to Hawaii without any navigation gear at all. At least they could before c-19.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

capta said:


> There is a saying that an old lady in a bathtub can make the run from the west coast to Hawaii without any navigation gear at all. At least they could before c-19.


Coming back from Hawaii is the hard part.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

capta said:


> It's more about falling backwards off a wave and having the rudder break free from its restraints and going hard over while falling backwards. No way running puts more strain than that.


That makes sense, thanks for the explaination.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

The above analysis is consistent with my thinking.
hove to -risk of being overwhelmed. Multiple reports of this occurring.
hove to with sea anchor to maintain appropriate angle to wave train as per Lin & Larry- risk unchanged and perhaps increased if sea anchor fails or is too effective bringing bow into wave train.
running under bare poles - risk of broaching increased, risk of rudder damage, need for expert helmsman, risk of broach with helmsman error or exhaustion.
running with drogues- helm lashed amidships, no human input required, risk of drogue failure, risk of pooping with down flooding. However all risks can be mitigated to great degree. Have my opinion about which are effective drogues but believe even hanging any rope (spare running gear, dock lines anything) works to some degree. If on a CD25 would put knots in every rope aboard. Strongest ones closest to the boat at both ends make a loop. Tie a weight of some sort in the middle. Make a loop secured at each stern cleat and over she goes. So for that boat order would be
reef
hove to (she does do that well)
once over 30-35 sustained drogues and lashed helm and everything down.
most boats are short handed. All of us get tired. So when thinking about this want a technique you can execute then requires no further input. Want to do it, then button up and go below. Think all this “I have a full keel boat and can hove to so I’m a bwb“ is utter nonsense. In actuality centerboarders with jsds seem to do the best. The OP post or variations has occurred on this site in the past. Being a “traditional” design doesn’t make you more seaworthy. Some traditional designs are excellent sea boats as are some boats at today’s cutting edge. The particular one under consideration isn’t one imho. the cd is a good coastal cruiser and better made then many of that era but that’s it.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

outbound said:


> The above analysis is consistent with my thinking.
> hove to -risk of being overwhelmed. Multiple reports of this occurring.
> hove to with sea anchor to maintain appropriate angle to wave train as per Lin & Larry- risk unchanged and perhaps increased if sea anchor fails or is too effective bringing bow into wave train.
> running under bare poles - risk of broaching increased, risk of rudder damage, need for expert helmsman, risk of broach with helmsman error or exhaustion.
> ...


I sailed through (under bare poles) the storm that Alan Colas disappeared in and 12 other people I know of died. I was forced to steer for 22 hours straight.
The tactic that worked best for me was surfing the breaking waves (40+ feet) like a surfboard, then turning my stern to the white water and letting it go by me. When in the white water the boat had very little buoyancy, but much of the bare rig was below the wave top aft, so forward way was minimal
Then she would rise to the next wave and I'd put the helm over and off we'd go, surfing once again.
Fortunately, I had a few hours to develop this before sunset, and managed to make it through the night, but the noise and motion of the boat was really terrifying in the dark. We never did broach and I never left the helm, my crew bringing food and coffee to me now and then and there were no bathroom breaks.
I doubt I could do it at this age (maybe, who knows, until your life is on the line?) but in my early 30s I was in pretty good shape.
I had been in other storms and used several different types of drogues, but found they limited the boat's ability to get out from under the breaking waves and have even had some thrown into the rig by the wind, so by the time I hit this storm I didn't even have one onboard. I have never set a sea anchor and never would. I have hove-to or laid ahull, but never in more than 70 knots and usually just for a short nap.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

I had a similar situation last year, not quite 40 footers, but they were up to my spreaders, steep and in quick succession. I ended up managing the same technique e as you, Capta. Can also relate to the bathroom breaks - I had to pee on the cockpit sole while helming. Was helming for 12 hours - not something I want to get into again any time soon.


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