# Sailing as a senior



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Most people likely start sailing and boat owning when they are perhaps in their 30s to maybe 50 or so? A poll would be interesting. I began at the age of 37 and closed on Shiva which I still owe... a new Contest36s. We've grown old together. I have to work more and more and harder and harder to keep her in shape... because stuff gets old and needs attention or replacement... and often items are no longer supported... such as the MD17D engine. So even if I have a pump that fails.... it may no longer be available. Just finding a solution/work around is a project! All boat owners who own older boats know this. New boats, new cars, they don't have THIS sort of problem.

Which brings me to the skipper / owners... They/we get old too. And not all our parts can be replaced and when they are work like what we were born with. Normal to aging are things like arthritis which caused problems with your joints... stiffness, limited range of motion... pain... lost flexibility and control. Balance is often slowly being effected as you age as you need good control of your leg muscles and feedback from the legs in your nerves to keep your balance without thinking about it. Older you get... the less steady you are on your feet. All you can do is be more conscious of your deficit and try to compensate. 

Knee problems? You won't likely be jumping off your deck onto a dock. Single handing docking becomes more and more difficult when simply jumping from the dock is not possible. You will need to use more hand holds even when years before you didn't need them.

You can use helpers.... roller furled sails... electric windlass for anchoring.... an AP to steer.... and electric winches or a drill with a winch bit to hoist sails, OBs, dinks or anything heavy.

What are you doing as your body's old taken for granted abilities are disappearing? When is too much and time to turn in your deck shoes? How viable is it to sail with crew? Helpers to do boat maintenance.... Or do you pay mechanics? Do you sail less and evolve into a fair weather sailor avoiding the more challenges days out there?

Have you even a plan/exit strategy for ending your sailing and boat ownership?

Share your thoughts about sailing and owning a boat as a senior.


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

I'm 75. Fortunately in good health with mostly just the aches and pains of aging. Balance isn't what it used to be but just move slower and make good use of the kneepads to lower the center of gravity. Have bought my downsized replacement boat, a Sabre 28. Way easier to maneuver though not much less to maintain. It's easier to take the Sabre out of its twin finger pier slip than the Med Moor of the Pearson in Hawaii so actually sail the Sabre a lot more. It's not a lot easier to actually sail from the cockpit but find getting around on the deck more of a challenge because of narrow walkways, curved cabin top, and quicker motion. Have set the boat up so that I can do most everything from the cockpit except set the spinnaker which has only been out of its turtle once in the little over a year I've owned the boat. Actual labor between the 28 and 35 isn't that much different until it comes to anchoring and changing sails. Actually for anchoring, the 35 is way easier because of an electric windlass. If I do more anchoring in the future will have to explore adding a windlass to the Sabre.

Still have my Pearson 35 that I've owned for nearly 20 years. Have to finish rebuilding the chart table/ice box before I can try and sell it. Not making much progress on it because we are spending half our time in our 40 year long time home in Kona, HI and a Condo in Carlsbad, CA. Haven't been pressed to sell it especially since the old boat market is so depressed. Have thought about donating it or finding an enthusiastic young person to make a deal on the boat.


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## dadio917 (Apr 4, 2011)

66 and wife is 64. just did Hawaii and back. no problem.

but that's nothing....we heard this woman call into the pacific sea farers net every day.
https://www.svnereida.com/


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

My neighbor, now passed, single handed his 42' catch into his early 90's. He would go get the boat himself in the spring from a boat yard over in Buzzards Bay and bring the boat over to Vineyard Sound himself. I offered to go with him as he got older, but he always turned the help down, not for company, but somehow it was important to him to do it. An incredibly capable sailor.

He had in mast hood furl, and roller furling main, but the mizzen was conventional pull it up by halyard.

My other neighbor in his 80's still sails with his grand kids. He recently replaced his 130 with a 100 or so, we get a lot of wind around here in the afternoon, he's more comfortable going a bit slower with a bit less heal. His view is rig your boat for geriatric sailing and keep going as long as you can. He also has a hood furl main.

Ted Hood once said, most of what happens on a sailboat is more about planning and knowing rather than raw strength.

That said, a health problem is a health problem, and some day it gets all of us. That age is different for all of us. 

My personal plan is to continue to be active with exercise and healthy living for as long as I can. Some day I know I'll have to stop. Not yet.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I started sailing when in my 20s. Now 73. I have been lucky physically so far, with only a few aches and pains and still good balance. I also began skiing in my 20s and continue to do that at a pretty high level. I ski over 60 days every winter and actually ski terrain I would avoid in my 40s. I think that keeping active with these two sports I love has had a lot to do with pushing back the effects of getting older.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Another aspect of aging is loss of cognitive function. This is very slow, hard to miss and it is insidious. Everyone expects to become forgetful as they age. But what other cognitive (if any) degrade? Response time? There is also a difference between short and long term memory. How would short term memory impact on owning, maintaining and sailing a boat? Does this mean you can't find things you stowed? Does it mean that you forget little protocols?

My sense is that we accept and expect that we will lose our old physical capabilities less than the loss of cognitive function which may even be hard to see in ourselves. Here is what MAY??? be an example of this.

You have a garage with an remote controlled door operation. When you drive up to the garage you obviously realize the door has to be opened. So you press the remote and the door opens. You drive in. And then get out of the car. You KNOW that you brought of even bought some things to take into your home. It's second nature and obvious to take keys, phone etc. You KNOW this. Yet... you might grab the phone off the seat get out and realize you forgot the keys? Were you pre occupied thinking about something? But why would such a routine not go an "automatic" Why does it require more purposeful attention. Same for closing the garage door. You know it's to be closed but might walk away go into the apartment of house etc.... forgetting to press the remote and leave the garage open. You never look back because the system is reliable and makes some noise to tell you its closing which is processed typically almost subconsciously. Mind do management in the background. 

This is not unlike balance. As we lose it in the background we are forced to be mindful of keeping our balance. The adaptive behavior is to get some "support" or sense of balance by holding on to things... making other muscles do the work of stability.

My sister has dementia. I had witnessed her cognitive decline over about 5 years. It is interesting because she was a brilliant, educated well read person. She might do something like this. I pick her up at assisted living to take her for a doctor exam. She brings her little shoulder bag... habit when going outside. I assume she has her ID's, wallet, keys and so on and say nothing. We get to the doctor's office and of course they request ID and perhaps a co pay. She opens her bag and it's not there... but she had put in an old "wallet" with nothing in it. 

or

We return to her assisted living apartment and she takes off little should bag and places it over the back of a chair... something women often do in a restaurant. I think nothing of it. The chair was right there so why not. A few minutes later she is walking around the tiny apartment looking for something. What are you looking for? My bag she says... I put it somewhere. So look what happened. In her mind she knows normal people put things like hand bags somewhere. She couldn't find it because her mind was not only not reminding her where would TYPICALLY puts it... but it failed to see the bag which was in plain sight... or remember that a minute before SHE had put it THERE.

How often to I get up from my desk wanting a drink or a coffee... only to arrive at the kitchen and forget why I went there. My mind will semi panic and find some kitchen task to do... could be eating or drinking or washing dishes or taking something frozen out of the freezer to defrost for dinner. It's not hard to find some kitchen appropriate thing to do once there... but it may not be why we went there in the first place. Our mind will find some reason!

I am forever increasingly lately trying to remember where some things are stowed. Everything has a place... but it's place is changed by me from time to time probably thinking the new place is better for n number of reasons than its old place. It may be true but we may still look in the old place! And then not finding it there.... try to figure out why and then where we moved it. hahahahahaha (if we can)

++++

For sure sailing involves lots of awareness of the environment. I would imagine that a fair amount of the information about the environment is being processed in our brains/minds subconsciously. It may only come into our consciousness when it exceeds some parameter. So may fail to notice wind changes without some other cues (tell tales, flagging sail, wave pattern etc.) Does old age impact our sub conscious minds ability to "perform on auto pilot"? I think so. 

And I think people develop work arounds such as not having to remember where your keys are but having a key hook by the door. Routines don't require the same level of consciousness? But this can be dangerous too. It can lead to letting down our guard and not paying full attention.

I think that the insidious nature of the loss of cognitive function makes it hard to see in oneself, hard to accept, and could lead to "problems" operating a boat. So single handing makes less sense... not because the sailor can't single hand... but having another person there changes the mental and physical environment... so 1+1 is actually greater than 2 in a sense.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I just had some restorative knee surgery, not a full replacement, but a tear and arthritis. It has me pretty focused on what's next. Thankfully, this round has all indications it will be successful. 

It's always been intuitive that I'd get weaker as I age, that comes as no surprise. What eats at me is that ten years ago, I had no way of really knowing what that would mean today, so probably have no idea what ten more years will bring. 

My doc tells me that my metabolic health is excellent. Perfect blood pressure, cholesterol, and on and on. It's my musculoskeletal system that is creeping up to it's use-by date.

Mentally, I'm 100% prepared to take it on and do what I must to keep sailing. Love the geriatric setup comment above, but so be it. I'll electrify or modify whatever necessary. Even today, while I get aches and pains that keep me from wanting to do anything else, the prospect of a cruise eliminates all interference. Let's go. 

On a routine basis, I'm much more careful with how I stand, pull, lift, climb, etc. In the moment of crisis, however, I see little difference. It's probably adrenaline. This summer, we had our furling main bolt rope fully pull out of the track, while underway, in 15kts of breeze and offshore seas of a few feet. I immediately sprung out on the deck to deal with it, pulled it down and lashed it to the rails, with no reservation, nor sense of pain. Later, I was pretty sore.

I think the only way I can deal with the inevitable onset is to take measures to prevent as much of it as possible. The boat is a natural environment for exercising your balance and staying active. Not much more. I think strength training, especially core muscles and those around major joints, is critical. Aerobic secondary to strength. 

We also need to better protect ourselves against injury. I wear knee pads anytime I need to kneel down. I wear hearing protection, eye protections, etc, etc, with significant diligence above what I did as a younger man. Funny, I even do a much better job of flossing my teeth today. Prevention is key.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There are some physiological things one can do to prevent or slow down cognitive decline. I think the most relevant is oxygen availability. Sleep apnea is probably far more prevalent than we believe. Even snoring reduces oxygen saturation over night. Try to deal with it, whether by losing weight, get a CPAP or whatever. They also say one reason aerobic exercise is useful is that it increases oxygen saturation, which is good for your brain. 

The other thing that I've recently read is potentially useful in staving off cognitive delcine is being a lifetime learner. They think that continually learning new things expands some neural capacity. You may lose some, but make new. Not sure this has been proven yet, but I've read some very interesting articles on the idea. Intuitively, I find many "old folks" are stuck in a rut. They just repeat everything they already know and do all the same things. They don't often take on new hobbies, learn new things, engage in serious intellectual curiosity. I think this atrophies the brain.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

great thinking/ideas in these last two posts.

How about "forgetting fatigue'? As you age you will fatigue more and perhaps sooner than when you were younger. You lift something that before never strained your muscles and even if you accomplish the task you feel it the next morning you feel it. You forget about your decreased capacity and become reminded after the fact!

We tend to be sedentary because of your work or life style... and as far as sailing and goes... it is not sedentary... So we forget and move lift, pull, stretch bend as we did when we were younger and more fit and feel it the next day!

Some things we learn... like not to lift the heavy things we did when we were younger. Lift the OB? Best to get help! Your machine aging fasting than what you think it is????? Or you know it and you simply forget?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There was a time I had myself convinced I could mange my knee, by being disciplined enough not to do the things that hurt it. I’d make a mistake and then remind myself to focus. Took a while to realize it had nothing to do with my actions. A movement would set me back that hadn’t been a problem before. It was broken and needed to be fixed. That’s part of the deal too. I know many who’ve refused obvious needs for care. The excuse not to typically seems to be either fear or financial, both of which I understand. Not that you run to the operating room, as a first reaction. However, if you wait too long, the repair becomes more severe and the recovery less assured. 

Next addition should be what stress does to ones overall health and vitality. Spoiler alert, it’s probably the worst functional disease.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Joints undoubtedly will degrade. Many factors determine the rate and severity. Joints are complex! Knees support I believe up to 3x effective (don't recall their actual value) body weight then they simply flex such as when squatting or walking down stairs. Healthy knees and strong enough muscles make us unaware of the effective load increase. You won't see many old folks squatting for this reason!

Strengthening leg muscles can provide more support and help compensate for the under performing knee joint. Unfortunately the exercise requires using the sub par joint!

There are number medial / surgical interventions for knee problems... but surgeons may be conservative in their approach to intervention.

++++

I was experiencing some problems with walking... stair use. It was very gradual and the orthopedist focus on the spine. Walking problems are often felt symptomatically as lower back pain. Of course I could have also had knees a the source for my walking issues. Lo and behold spine surgeon at perhaps the best hospital in the US HSS failed to do a comprehensive evaluation of my leg and foot... in addition to my spine and missed that I had arthritis. Don't look and don't see.

Back surgery hasn't removed my walking problems and not I am recovering from a huge surgery... which also damaged my sciatic nerve creating other problems like. Treat may have been worse that the "disease/problem". It should be noted that spine surgery is all about mechanical "fixes" for "nerve involvement. Out of whack spine bugs the nerves that are inside your spinal column.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Im 70 now, and have been sailing all my life. I have done several things to extend my sailing time:

I bought a boat with a roller furling main. It works very well, and keeps main reefing and furling as a one man job.
Roller fulrling jib for sure.
I installed electric jib winches. Yes, it sounds like too much, but wow, what a difference. I can tack and trim so easily.
Yes, the main sheet and halyard are on an electric winch. Bet you can guess that I have an electric windlass.
I spend a lot of time on maintenance. If I have less breakdowns, I have better odds.

Reef early and whenever I think about it. Funny how it often not only eases the motion, but often is just as fast, or faster.
I don't sail at night as much now. I went blind in my left eye last year, and my night vision suffers. So I adapt.
I don't go out as much if the wind is above 20 knots. The boat can handle it, but I try to have more margin for error.
I plan ahead. Lines ready, food and drink ready, clothes ready. I just try to plan out what I might need.
Mindfullness. Being in the now. I try to keep myself involved in the sailing of the boat so that I notice the things around me.

So I'm still sailing quite a bit - a few day sails per week, racing on Tuesday Nights, cruises for a few days or weeks when I (and my wife) can schedule it. I've difinately slowed down, but I'm still enjoying the hell out of it. When this boat gets to be too much to handle because of physical abilities, we've considered getting a run-about, or a Ranger Tug or some such thing. If I can't handle that, I'll just go down to the harbor and watch. I do plan to have a big smile on my face.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

What stood out to me about @Scotty C-M's post was the line about mindfulness. I think as we age our internal "auto pilot" is no longer working as it once was. We can't depend on it as we did. Short term memory is slipping... even maintaining balance is not working as well any longer so we have to PAY ATTENTION... and take over. Mindfulness is just that! More thought and planning/preparation. More conscious attention on the present moment. More acceptance / awareness of our evolving limitations and strategies for work arounds.

Great post Scotty!

Be here now!


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## GeorgiaTerrapin (Aug 27, 2019)

I'll be 60 in June, and I haven't sailed since my teen years. My plan is to get a 17' - 20' boat with a small cabin so I can trailer it to lakes (maybe the Gulf of Mexico not too far from shore), and sail leisurely. No racing, I'm done with the frantic stuff.

My workout program involves exercises that help me do the household and yard work I want to do -- cutting dead trees, carrying wood, etc. Same with sailing -- it should be age appropriate.

When I'm too fragile to sail, I might just try to find a host so I can be a passenger (maybe my son if he gets interested), or sit on the docks and smoke a pipe while I watch the ships come and go.

At my current age, all I want is a small mental and physical challenge combined with a peaceful environment. I hope I'll have the good sense to know when to quit.

Greg


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Started sailing in late 50’s.

Retired at 65, now live aboard 6 months in Caribbean. Now thinking about what to do when we retire from sailing. But who knows when that will be. In no rush to return to the USA anymore.

I’ll be 69 in November, still single hand when necessary. Don’t have the stamina I used to. But I’m getting around. This whole idea of “death” is mind boggling to me. Yuck!


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

hpeer said:


> Started sailing in late 50's.
> 
> This whole idea of "death" is mind boggling to me. Yuck!


I will be using this excellent quote, I hope you don't mind!


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I have read that gardening is the hobby that correlates most with long life and good health while aging. Probably because it’s active enough to keep you physically fit without being so demanding that it actually damages you, and it keeps your mind active.

If sailing was a common enough hobby to be studied I’m sure it would have ranked high as well, for the same reasons.

I’m still in my 40s. If family history is any guide I’ll live till my mid-to-upper 90s, and have about a 50% chance of keeping my mind till the end.

I think yoga is good for aging, because it helps with strength, flexibility, and balance.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I’m a neurologist but will avoid a diatribe concerning AD beyond saying 
Pick the right parents.
Use your brain 
Exercise

I see many of my friends go over to the dark side. I’ve always have had an appreciation for trawlers. A Norhavn or lady Krogen May be in my future. I don’t want to give up Caribbean in winter and New England in summer if I can. Perhaps it will be on my sailboat. Perhaps not. But last week had dinner with a couple in their 80s. They still run their Amel by themselves. I know two other couples in their 80 on sisterships. One has a live aboard crew to help out. The other takes on crew as necessary. 
Many of my friends are as old or older than me and the bride but still sailing. Several have much more ambitious programs than us. I learned a lot of my sailing skills from an elderly town librarian when I was less than half my current age. She was <100lbs soaking wet. She told me “if it’s hard to do....you are doing it wrong “. It was true then and is true now. Good body mechanics and an ergonomic boat takes the need for strength away. 
Think you need to do different stuff. I row, kayak, fish, hunt and sail. Can’t run anymore nor climb so figure out things I can do to remain somewhat active. Your menu should require different skills, new learning, some socializing, and use your muscles differently. Can’t be the same old same old.
Recent studies say for men social isolation is now a leading direct or indirect cause of death. Forums help to a minor degree but true face time with another human remains key. Unfortunately among cruisers I see alcohol consumption as the excuse for getting together. That results in morbidity and premature mortality for some cruisers. It’s unfortunate so many people, especially men, need an excuse to get together.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

outbound said:


> I'm a neurologist but will avoid a diatribe concerning AD beyond saying
> Pick the right parents.
> Use your brain
> Exercise
> ...


Isolation does lead to inactivity. Makes perfect sense. Older people get the less opportunity they have to socialize and "do things" outside. Decreased mobility doesn't help either. For those who live in a city there are all manner of events to attend... concerts, performances, theater, museums. sporting events, dancing, street fairs, window shopping, dining out, walking, sports, volunteering, even political demonstrations. If you have children or grand children this may also get you out.

I have never been a drinker social or otherwise and going to a bar to chat up the regulars is not even on my radar. Sad that this may be the things that people socialize around. I do go to one bar restaurant but to dine whether i sit a table or the bar and I observe how many drink there.

Being an audience member is not active. But it does get you out, you can meet and interact during intermission. Performances should be mental stimulation. Seeing athletes or dancers is a reminder of what a fit body is. It can be and often inspires people to be active. I encourage attending the arts as being therapeutic for seniors!

Boats operating and maintaining is an unusual type of exercise. I find that it involves brief periods of intensity followed by lots of nothing. It does / can be mentally stimulating... One should be constantly observing and thinking and not passive. Sailing can be therapeutic.

You don't realize what you had til it's gone.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> .....Seeing athletes or dancers is a reminder of what a fit body is. It can be and often inspires people to be active. I encourage attending the arts as being therapeutic for seniors!


It's funny you mention this. I was fairly athletic years ago. Played multiple sports, Captain of multiple teams, played in college, etc. For many years, throughout my 30s and 40s, I would watch professional sports and get that emotional high that I could do that too! Now I watch and I'm reminded I can't do that. It's a very new consciousness that occurred long after it was actually true. I wish I could still do that.

For me, it's not depressing in any way, it's just reality. I'm way more comfortable in so many other ways than when I was 30, so other than mortality, I would not really make the trade to go back.

Dancing has never been my thing (to do or watch). Physically I put it in the same bucket as golf. All the twisting, torquing and making one's body do things that aren't natural, really isn't very good for the pros.



> You don't realize what you had til it's gone.


Amen.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

capecodda said:


> I will be using this excellent quote, I hope you don't mind!


Mind? Hell I'm flattered! :grin


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> .
> 
> Dancing has never been my thing (to do or watch). Physically I put it in the same bucket as golf. All the twisting, torquing and making one's body do things that aren't natural, really isn't very good for the pros.
> 
> Amen.


Interesting comment! I was not a big sports kid... of course I played little league and know every batting average of the Yanks back then. I was shy and so dancing with girls was not my thing.

In college I did no sports except tennis... Never was a person to watch sports on TV after high school. We had a hoop on our garage. We went to games at Ebbets, Polo Grounds and the old Yankee Stadium. It was fun! I caught a foul ball!

Years later in my late 30s almost 40 when I bought Shiva I was in Norwalk working on the boat... and I went to a bar for a burger. They had a basketball game on the TV.. no sound. I recognized nothing... didn't know whether it was college of pro or what. It was just a generic game to me. I realized to be a fan you really need to invest watching time. Never ever ever read the sports page in the paper.

Lived in the village and had an opportunity for all sorts of cultah... visited museum, shows, concerts. Had some lady friends who were studying and loved dance. Went a few times.

Returning from 4 years of living aboard in the tropics I was thirsty for high culture. I began to attend opera and ballet which I essentially knew nothing about. I enjoyed the immersion into these old art forms... preserved as paintings in a museum from the 18th and 19th centuries. I began to appreciate the skill of these artists... their lifetime of training and achievement. Ballet dancers were even more fit and in control of their bodies than athletes. The movement was so graceful and studied. The structure of ballet reminded me of the "rules" of classical architecture with its orders. Ballet / dance was to walking what sailing was to messing about in the water at the beach. I believe Goethe called architecture frozen music.... I called dance flowing architecture. I find inspiration watching ballet. I love to see an inspiring performance and then go to the boat and sail.

For me sailing like ballet doesn't work to watch it on a screen. It's live thing... a passing thing... once you do "a sail" it is gone and only a memory. We return to sailing again live because of the thrill we get. Performances are like that as well... or should be and can be.

I find many forms of dance interesting to watch now... dance, like sailing/the sea is part of so many cultures. But it's hard to monetize the experience despite that someone will / has done it.

Nothing in life is free.


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## Carell (Sep 15, 2019)

Somebody I know used to sail on a boat which was really big and had everything hydraulic. He and his wife sailed everywhere with this thing. I guess it's key to have a lot more automatic. 
It was a boat like this one: ww.sailingyacht-aline.com/world-cruiser


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## Christian Williams (Jun 28, 2013)

Seems to me that sailing is something most of us can do well into old age, even when injury or muscle loss takes the edge off tennis, windsurfing and the Ironman.

I turned 76 in this video.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I feel comfortable in most "reasonable" conditions as a senior. This has made me more of a fair weather sailor. With a heeled boat and seas running going forward is way more difficult as a senior with my balance deficit from nerve damage during spine surgery. Steadiness, sure footedness is required. Moving down below in a heeled boat is not a problem because of the hand holds.

Two years were were coming back from a nice sail with a mile to go to the inner harbor where I drop the sail. A very very dark sky was coming right at us and I was pretty sure we see very strong wings in a brief squall. I expected a lee shore.... fired up the engine, rolled in the genny and went forward to muscle down the sail. Got it down just before the sky opened up. Zero visibility. Tying the main is not something I want to do ever and especially now on a pitching deck. 

If you have sea room you can run until things calm down... Head up, release the main halyard, get it down quickly to the deepest reef and fall off and run with no genny. Coastal this is not always possible.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Furling mains, or maybe a Dutchman, are the designs of a senior qualified vessel.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minni, I've had the Dutchie since 1987 or 88 I was about 40.... not quite a senior ;-)

My main is like 450 SF, full battened and heavy dacron. PITA.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Making life easier aboard is the not the exclusive domain of the senior, it just becomes more necessary. Good you were ahead of the curve. No doubt it's one of the reasons you've kept her so long. 

I'm thinking about whether I would want a Dutchman on a future boat. I like the system, especially the fact that one can retain a full battened, traditional main. 

My only hesitation is whether the main would be too big to flake without the dutchman, which is the case now, with just my wife and me aboard. Any failure of our current furling system and the whole main must come down on deck and wait for calm conditions to correct. I can not flake it alone, while my wife is at the helm. The last time I did need to flake it and tie it to the boom, it took four of us. Two strapping 30 yr olds, plus me and my wife. 

I've been thinking about boom furling the next go around, but they can fail too and can also be temperamental to furl. If the boom is not at exactly the correct angle to the mast, it will start to extend, as it rolls, like a bad carpet roll, and jam. 

I wonder if there is anyway to suggest whether boom furling or the dutchman would be more reliable. Everything fails eventually. The Dutchman might be easier to correct, if it does fail, in a remote place.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

For kicks and giggles went to ballet school when doing med school. Fellow student/roommate explained the exercise of ballet was so intense that that many don’t have their period. He thought is was the ideal group of ladies to date. He wrestled in college but I didn’t do organize sports preferring long distance bike rides and rock/ice climbing. Still the ladies were amazingly fit, and quite intelligent. Unfortunately now can’t watch ballet in comfort knowing how much pain, injury and wear it puts on a body. 
Mom was an art historian. Wrote books, and was a professor. Ruined art for me. Spent much of my childhood being dragged around to museums. Only recently can go into a museum and enjoy it. 

There’s three ways to get old in my humble opinion.
The boomer fight - do everything possible to retard it. Weird diets and supplements. Train like you’re fighting for an Olympic spot. Dress like your 20 something. 
Go gently into the night- focus on kids and grandkids. Reminisce about the past. Work your AARP card. Do herd activities. Cruises, tours, RV, red hat etc.
You get one pass- acknowledge the process. Figure out what you can/need to do to continue to be independent, self reliant and do what you want. Stay vigorous to the extent possible intellectually, physically and socially but be realistic to avoid injury. Enjoy the passage of the torch to descendants and the wonder of the circle of life. 
Death and taxes. Get over it.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Making life easier aboard is the not the exclusive domain of the senior, it just becomes more necessary. Good you were ahead of the curve. No doubt it's one of the reasons you've kept her so long.
> 
> I'm thinking about whether I would want a Dutchman on a future boat. I like the system, especially the fact that one can retain a full battened, traditional main.
> 
> ...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Here’s our thinking on this S. I envisioned troubles I’ve had or heard about on “other peoples boats”.
In boom- angle is wrong. Was correct at start of passage but with loading and time wandered. Luff of sail migrates aft as it’s rolled up. Puts strain on feeder and track. It breaks. No main. 
Halyard chafes and breaks. ?how? Don’t know but suspect jumped out of block at masthead. Sail dumps and ends up in the water to leeward. Hard and scary to get it back on board with 4 working at it. 
In mast- jams in groove. Try to work it out but mandrill bent. No joy. Take knife to it as wind continues to build.
Dutchman- have old school cringles sew in/blocks on sail and cleats on boom. Can fall back to old school slab reefing anytime it’s necessary. Can do that by myself although it requires me to go to the foot of the mast.otherwise everything is handled in the cockpit. As long as wind isn’t behind the mast can let out main and reef without turning on the engine in any strength wind. Total belt and suspenders system. Very unlikely both Dutchman reefing and old school slab will fail but if it does we can jury rig as a mom and pop team with whats already on the boat not requiring strength.
KISS. Have power on the winch we use for the main halyard. Only potential screw up is if bad crew leave their finger on the button so even pretty safe with crew. Both in boom and in mast require a fine touch. No problem for the owner but I know several owners who don’t let crew reef and need to wake up every time main is let out or taken in. We are a mom and pop. Need something we can maintain, use in any circumstance, and ideally let others use for passage.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

One other issue for traditional sails on larger boats is whether the boom can be reached at all. From the cockpit, our boom must be 8ft overhead. In order to do anything on the aft half of the boom, it needs to be eased off to the side, so you can stand on the coaming. The traveler is just about good enough, but if you use the mainsheet, it becomes a free swinging boom, which is not good in windy or wavy conditions. 

Another boat I'm interested in has a traditional mainsail, but the boom is even harder to access than the one I have now. Could even be a hassle to install the sailcover back at the slip. The mast furling system surely makes this all a ton easier, in the context of senior sailing.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Long Post so feel free to ignore.

As I get older I don't need rippling chest muscles or shoulder muscles but I do need rippling back, wrist and calf muscles.
So in port I go to the gym 3 or 4 times per week to do 3 types of training: Weights, HIIT Cardio, and, Old Mans Exercises.

*My diet: * Low Carb, no processed food, no or little sugar (except beer sugar  ).
Vitamin supplements: D3, K2, (taken at the same time); Zinc and Selenium (taken at the same time); Magnesium, Potassium, CoQ10

Most of my stuff is backed up by research but the Old Man Exercises have been devised by myself and freak out the Gym staff.

*As I get older I am concerned with:*
Heart: CAC Score - coronary artery calcium - which shows how much actual calcium has built up in my arteries (Very, very little).
Cancer: Cancer cells eat sugar to grow so I keep the sugar down.
Back pain: So I have exercises just for that.
Walking so slowly the Grim Reaper can catch me.
Falls: One bad fall can be catastrophic.

Problems: Back muscles dont actually exist where I need them! Theres no muscle that covers the lower back, the Lumbar Spine area. You don't believe me? Even Arnold Schwarzenegger NEVER had muscles over his lumbar spine!
Google "Bodybuilders Christmas Tree" and look at the images.
You can see their spines...!








All of the muscles are either side, above and below, but not on or around. Weird, huh?
The gap is called the christmas tree because thats what it looks like.

*Philosophy: *To use science to get the best benefit from the least effort and least time exercising.

*Weights:* The normal stuff that the gym junkies do but I try to do heavy weights to failure in 4 to 7 repetitions. Then some days light weights to 30 repetitions till failure then drop the weight and keep going till total failure.

*HIIT Cardio:* We are told to do a few hours of 'brisk walking' every week. But whats Brisk Walking? From the NSW Institute of Sport the idea is we need only have 15 minutes 3 times per week with the heart rate above 150 beats per minute. The difficulty is its desperatly difficult to get it up that high for that long... so they devised a method to trick the heart so it goes up and stays up with the least effort.
On a cardio bike set quite easy (about 5 or 6) I do a 7 second HARD as I can and then 13 seconds very soft, just my legs going around. Watching the cycles clock I do my hard bit at 20; 40 and; 00. Within about 2 minutes the heart rate is up. If it gets too high I cut from 7 seconds to 5 or 4 or even 3 seconds and increase, correspondingly the relax time. 15 minutes is not too difficult.
On the Treadmill walking I set the Incline to the maximum of 15% and the walking speed very low, 4.5kmph. As the heart rate comes up I keep dropping back the speed, not the incline. After 15 minutes Im down to 3.5 kmph - quite easy. 15 minutes no trouble.

*Old Mans Exercises:* These I have developed myself and get ridiculed by the 20 year old gym instructors.

Picking up dropped keys is done (until were being watched by a fitness guru) by bending down and picking the damn things up. NO! says the guru, I must squat down, back straight to pick up keys, or lift a small weight! But squatting down back straight I cant see the keys, all I can do is feel between my legs for them.
Tying my shoes is done with a bent back. Try tying your shoes with a straight back. impossible.
On a boat twisting whilst pulling is derigour. We all know its "bad" for us but what else can we do?
Instead of saying I can't do this, I have devised Old Mans Exercises so I get muscles to pick up keys, tie my laces and twist while I winch or haul up the halyard or get a bucket full of seawater up the side of the boat and down the companionway.

_Bent Back Lifting._
Using the Back Extension equipment at the gym I'm told to keep my back straight... ok I do a few reps like that. But then I drop down chin on chest and back bent and slowly uncurl to horizontal.

_Key Drop: _I put a light weight on the floor and bend over with bent back and pick it up. Careful to use light weights!

_Shoe tying:_ Situps with bent back.

_Barbell behind the back:_ A light barbell behind my back and lifting it from butt to as high as I can go.

_Wrist strengthen: _Barbell to do a bicep curl but a bit lighter, after the first curl I open my hands and let the bar roll to my finger-tips then roll them back up into the next curl. Great for forearms and wrists.

_Twisting_ Theres a new machine there i sit in it and twist my upper body. start with a small wieght and note I cant twist far... but now its getting better.

_Old Man Jogging:_ on the street I do about 3kms in 15 minutes. Lil Old Man steps, Ive only just started and its not going too bad at all. Just short and slow.

*Walking faster than the Grim Reaper:*
We know from Hollywood that the Grim Reaper walks slowly with his scythe mowing down anyone he can catch. But in real life could this be true?
Yes! 
And a few scientists tested men to find out that you must walk above 2 miles per hour/ 3kmph or the Grim Reapers gunna get you https://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d7679
So if Im going for a walk of any type I make sure im doing more than 3kmph! simple.

*Falls:* With gym, walking faster, a few jogs and old mans exercises I am less likely to fall... and if I do my wrists are stronger to allow me to hit the deck without broken bones or ripping tendons.

*Conclusion: *I see lots of older folks who are unfit... but very very few 75 year olds who look like they work out. Ive started now with the long term view, investing in my health so I can enjoy my other investments.

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Mark good post but there are a whole bunch of back muscles including the paraspinals, multifidis, as well as muscles that insert on the transverse or dorsal spinus processes with origins elsewhere. Vertebrae look like pentagons with protrusions off the sides and back. Those 3 protrusions are covered in muscles. 
There are outliers with walking speed. The obvious being people with orthopedic injuries or congenital troubles. Personally have walking troubles so row to get cardio.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

outbound said:


> Personally have walking troubles so row to get cardio.


Sometimes I break up the 15 minutes with 3 x 6 minutes: Row, Bike, Treadmill and/or elliptical thing, ski thing, or stair walker... depending what the gym has.
Rowing is good because its one of the only upper body cardio machines.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> Here's our thinking on this S. I envisioned troubles I've had or heard about on "other peoples boats".
> In boom- angle is wrong. Was correct at start of passage but with loading and time wandered. Luff of sail migrates aft as it's rolled up. Puts strain on feeder and track. It breaks. No main.
> Halyard chafes and breaks. ?how? Don't know but suspect jumped out of block at masthead. Sail dumps and ends up in the water to leeward. Hard and scary to get it back on board with 4 working at it.
> In mast- jams in groove. Try to work it out but mandrill bent. No joy. Take knife to it as wind continues to build.
> ...


And or course the ez Jacks / lazy jack system most have..There must be a reason it appeals to the majority of non- furling main users.

inexpensive, never breaks like monofilament, no holes in the sails serving as a weakening point, foolproof, easy to deploy, durable, can be deployed from the cockpit, no special modifications of the sail cover, it also trains the sail to flake.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

outbound said:


> ...The obvious being people with orthopedic injuries or congenital troubles. Personally have walking troubles so row to get cardio.


For me, bike and kayak. (two knee surgeries, one severe.) But I don't look at these as mandatory exercise, I look at these as fun! Yesterday was a boat work day, and since I could not take the boat out (epoxy setting on a hull) I paddled around for an hour. Good fun.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Chef have had several versions of lazy jacks. Have caught battens on them. If you don’t bring them forward and loop around reefing hooks they can be a PIA. The cover attached to the boom was awkward on some the versions I’ve had. Unlike a Dutchman they don’t control the sail. Nor do they cause the sail to fold. The Dutchman prevents the main from flopping around during an evolution which is nice. In fact the main will shimmy down even when not directly into the wind over time. I replaced the 400lb fishing line this year because it was 5 years. Took me ~ an hour. Haven’t heard of people breaking that line. You ease off on the topping lift while sailing so there’s no chafe on the sail. You do get dirt lines on the sail if there’s air pollution in your mooring spot. For us it cleared once down in the tropics. I mostly single even with the bride on the boat. Big thing for me was I can release the halyard then go on to other things. The main will come down and be controlled with no further input. Once moored/anchored/ in the slip and can then sort things out if necessary. 
If we downsize to below 40’ would think about having the shafer system. Like the idea of the track pivoting aft of the mast. A sistership has it but tells me the sail pulls out of the track when in a blow and reefing. He thinks their great up to 40’ but forces become to great after that. Another sistership has the leisure furl. He hates it. Works fine but after a few days of hard sailing needs to be retuned. He doesn’t understand it as he’s marked where everything is and he says nothing moved but the angle becomes incorrect. 
I use my vang a lot. So in boom would take getting use to.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

When I say row I mean row. Have a sliding seat cf Whitehall rowboat. Go out crack of dawn. Glorious to see the sun rising, the birds getting active the fish breaking water. Mostly uses your legs so you get total body exercise without a heel strike so knees and hips do OK. 
Take a break and wet a line. Get your HR up again going home.
Just got a Oru haven. Have done some tidal rivers already. Wife likes the sights and I can catch schoolies. Still need to time it with the tides. Still working the necessary muscle and technique to be able to ignore the tides entirely. But compared to the rowboat not nearly as intense a workout.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

outbound said:


> Go out crack of dawn. Glorious to see the sun rising, the birds getting active the fish breaking water.


I do the same! Just getting back to the boat from the Nightclubs... Dancing exercise. :grin


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

In a rut...take control..get out of the rut


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Long Post so feel free to ignore.
> 
> As I get older I don't need rippling chest muscles or shoulder muscles but I do need rippling back, wrist and calf muscles.
> So in port I go to the gym 3 or 4 times per week to do 3 types of training: Weights, HIIT Cardio, and, Old Mans Exercises.
> ...


Down in the Caribbean we see these local guys who seemingly have perfect bodies, lean and strong, not like body builders they look balanced and tough. I remember seeing one in Grenada walking down a beach early in the AM. At first I put him at 16, but slowly realized he was more like 60.

Their aren't many of them, but more than a few. I assume they are all Rasta but that might be wrong. I find them amazing!


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I've been avoiding doctors since I got to the age where they feel obligated to find something wrong to fix. Their first question is always "What medications do you take ?" when you answer none they give you the fish eye.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> Chef have had several versions of lazy jacks. Have caught battens on them. If you don't bring them forward and loop around reefing hooks they can be a PIA. The cover attached to the boom was awkward on some the versions I've had. Unlike a Dutchman they don't control the sail. Nor do they cause the sail to fold. The Dutchman prevents the main from flopping around during an evolution which is nice. In fact the main will shimmy down even when not directly into the wind over time. I replaced the 400lb fishing line this year because it was 5 years. Took me ~ an hour. Haven't heard of people breaking that line. You ease off on the topping lift while sailing so there's no chafe on the sail. You do get dirt lines on the sail if there's air pollution in your mooring spot. For us it cleared once down in the tropics. I mostly single even with the bride on the boat. Big thing for me was I can release the halyard then go on to other things. The main will come down and be controlled with no further input. Once moored/anchored/ in the slip and can then sort things out if necessary.
> If we downsize to below 40' would think about having the shafer system. Like the idea of the track pivoting aft of the mast. A sistership has it but tells me the sail pulls out of the track when in a blow and reefing. He thinks their great up to 40' but forces become to great after that. Another sistership has the leisure furl. He hates it. Works fine but after a few days of hard sailing needs to be retuned. He doesn't understand it as he's marked where everything is and he says nothing moved but the angle becomes incorrect.
> I use my vang a lot. So in boom would take getting use to.


I guess the two versions of Lazy Jacks you had were inferior. Our EZJacks ( now jiffy Jacks). Cannot be in the way to hook a batten like the inferior Lazy Jacks) . Why you may ask.....because when you raise the sail they are held along the mast. We have a quantum 4 full batten loose footed sail and have never had an issue hooking. A batten.

The second part about the flaking of the sail . Our EZ Jacks when deployed 
Are from the mast back with a narrow chute for the sail to drop in. I have seen the Harken and other Lazy jack systems deployed from the spreaders which don't work as well.

So our jacks have been up for 18 years. Never had to replace or adjust yet. Not every five years....never.

No special slits in the sail cover....no holes in the sail . It's bad enough we have 8 already for the reefing lines.

So the jacks are against the mast when we raise the sail, so no hooking the battens,.how do they deploy when you want lower, easy peasy ....two lines led back to the cockpit.

When the sail drops....it can sit in it's flaked situation till we dock or anchor. 
Great for a single handler. I have friends who have had their monofiliment breaks when the sail was down and the sail flops all over the deck.

Lastly cost . $350 and one time rigger fee of less than $100 as it only takes an hour to rig. What does a Dutchman cost to install....and replace every 5 years. How much extra for the digger every 5 years? How much for the specified sail cover.? How much for the reenforced holes in the sail.

I think the Jiffy/ EZ Jacks are probably cheaper too overall.

The Dutchman is a great system If I had to choose between it and regular Harken Lazy Jacks....it might be a tougher choice for the batten hang up you mentioned . But you can choose a good jack system. BYW the have demos at all the major boat shows like Annapolis and Newport.

I have no affiliations with any of those companies.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> I guess the two versions of Lazy Jacks you had were inferior. Our EZJacks ( now jiffy Jacks). Cannot be in the way to hook a batten like the inferior Lazy Jacks) . Why you may ask.....because when you raise the sail they are held along the mast. We have a quantum 4 full batten loose footed sail and have never had an issue hooking. A batten.
> 
> The second part about the flaking of the sail . Our EZ Jacks when deployed
> Are from the mast back with a narrow chute for the sail to drop in. I have seen the Harken and other Lazy jack systems deployed from the spreaders which don't work as well.
> ...


We have traditional lazy jacks on our 35 footer (244 sq ft main) and they work reasonable well. That is, well enough that I haven't had a strong urge to replace them with another system after 23 years.

While the sail doesn't flake itself like a Dutchman system would, it is adequate under reasonable sailing conditions. What has made life easier is installing single line reefing with halyard and reefing lines led to the cockpit. (We did that 12 years ago after the admiral got uncomfortable handling the boat while I went forward to put in a double reef while beating into a 29 kt breeze. That was our first accommodation to our advancing years as sailors.) If conditions are snotty, you likely would have reefed the sail. In that case, the reefing lines are stretching the sail and helping to semi-flake the sail before it is lowered.

Since there is a lot of drag on the lines with this system, it helps to have blocks for the single line reefing on the sail--ours are the yellow Karver blocks shown in the first thumbnail in which a single reef has been executed. The second thumbnail shows the deck arrangement for the single line reefing (2 reefs) plus the main halyard. With the dodger (not shown) installed, it is necessary to use a short winch handle, which became a pain, so we bought a Winchrite electric "cordless winch handle" to use in our old age.

The other secret weapon in our arsenal is a substantial below deck autopilot that can handle the boat when the wind pipes up and you are single-handed or your crew has limited capability. The first thumbnail was taken while underway to Block Island with my then 8 and 12 yr old grandsons as my only crew, after I had set a single reef as a hedge against the winds picking up.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

capttb said:


> I've been avoiding doctors since I got to the age where they feel obligated to find something wrong to fix. Their first question is always "What medications do you take ?" when you answer none they give you the fish eye.


There are better docs out there. My doc will not prescribe a med, unless it's really necessary. He especially dislikes antibiotics, unless absolutely necessary. It kills me when I hear someone say they have a sore throat, call their doc and the doc phones in an antibiotic to the pharmacy. WTF!

My doc really is unique. We spend 45 mins together on my annual physical and I'm in very good overall health.

Find a doc like this!


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minni, that sounds great.... but the reality of medicine today is very different. GP Doctors typically are sitting a a computer... looking at varous values from tests.. BP, heart rate, blood panels... They barely every actually touch you... don't ast you do stand or bend or walk.. observe your body's mechanics. If you have a compliant they send you to a specialist who may do some imagining but little more.

This is driven by the "financial model" largely created by insurance providers. Drs want to cover their butts but seem to not actually do much but measure. Some push meds others not so much.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

My doc is the only person in his office. He has a part time non-medical receptionist, but no nurse, no PA, not other docs. Just him. He doesn't draw blood, you stop by the lab a few days before the exam and my doc has the results when you arrive. Our local hospital has a portal that engages every professional in town. He has access to every report from every other doc I may see, along the way. He has his tablet with him in the exam room to take notes and look up my past records. He prefers non-emergency communication through the messaging system inside this secure portal, rather than leaving phone messages. You can also make your own appointment this way. 

He's very engaged in modern medicine and the local physician networks. He's currently the President of some local group of docs, so he is a great resource for competent specialist referrals. In my past, I could tell I was just being sent to a buddy.

It's really a great new model. He may sound like a 20 yr old, but I'd say he's early 40s.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> My doc is the only person in his office. He has a part time non-medical receptionist, but no nurse, no PA, not other docs. Just him. He doesn't draw blood, you stop by the lab a few days before the exam and my doc has the results when you arrive. Our local hospital has a portal that engages every professional in town. He has access to every report from every other doc I may see, along the way. He has his tablet with him in the exam room to take notes and look up my past records. He prefers non-emergency communication through the messaging system inside this secure portal, rather than leaving phone messages. You can also make your own appointment this way.
> 
> He's very engaged in modern medicine and the local physician networks. He's currently the President of some local group of docs, so he is a great resource for competent specialist referrals. In my past, I could tell I was just being sent to a buddy.
> 
> It's really a great new model. He may sound like a 20 yr old, but I'd say he's early 40s.


Sounds great but a rarity. We are covered thru wife's union... 1199. So there is a network of providers. It's extensive but it's a corporate model. I suspect most medical care is dispensed via a corporate model. Never any preventative medicine... excels at repairing broken stuff.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have single on first two reefs. Double on third. Single is a PIA. Have expensive blocks sewn into sail. Dyneema lines. Fancy dan turning blocks on deck. Everything to reduce friction.friction is very low and you can pull the lines by hand alone. But as line comes down from block on luff of sail it catches on the sail near the boom. Sometimes you need to go forward to clear it. Takes a second but in wind means changing you change your clip to the jack line to do it. Takes longer to do that then the job.
Also if you have crew you need to teach them how to flake lines with no twist. The video with the wacko Brit works best. Always amazed how many”experienced “ sailors don’t know how to flake a line. Also find easing a bit of halyard and pulling in a bit of reef line works best. Find it best to NOT use a winch. 
The third reef is a joy. Sometimes if I’m alone on deck will skip the second as the third is so easy. 
Overall happy with the system. By myself I can safely raise, reef, and strike. If any component fails I can jury rig. I don’t need the powered winches but it’s nice to push a button to raise the main. Worse case if the winch died or totally failed I can jump it and suspect I’ll be able to into my 80s. We’re set up so can reef from the cockpit or switch entirely to the mast foot with necessary cleats in place for old time slab. 
I thought a lot about setting the boat up to be able to sail her into my twilight years. So far so good.
Some design features are helpful. The narrow cockpit with natural handholds everywhere. The handhold running the whole back edge of the hard dodger and around it’s sides. Handholds on the hard Bimini supports. The plethora of handholds below. The absence of hard edges just radius curves. The high degree of natural light in nearly all spaces. Find good light increasingly important as I age.
Think as you go through the boat shows make believe you just strained your back. Put on your readers to obscure your vision. Then move around making believe your doing typical evolutions. You can tell the sailors from the tire kickers. The sailors spend their time on deck first. Checking sight lines. Sitting and standing every where. Examining all the spaghetti and rigging. When they go below they lay down everywhere. Check out the galley and head in detail. If they’re smart image themselves on that boat in twenty years. 
Instead of the production builders going bigger and faster sure would like more new designs aimed at easier, simpler, more durable and safer to live on while traveling around.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> Sounds great but a rarity.......


It is. No doubt my doc has chosen a lifestyle he prefers too. I bet he's not maximizing his earnings, rather he gets to spend more time raising his kids. That's not a choice confined to docs, most folks won't make the choice he made. Some will.

In my previous home town, I was ingrained in a "medical group". It was a conglomeration of every version of general and specialist doc there is. The docs were attracted to the group for the business infrastructure that most docs seriously struggle with and for the equity in the whole practice, not just their own. This group had the reputation of only allowing the best to be in the "group" so it was desired by the docs and sought after by the community. Still, it was a machine. Huge waiting rooms, churn them over. Lots of prescribed surgery. Prior to find my current doc, I thought it was the best choice. I know better now.

Many, many years ago, I recall a local doc tried to create a new business model. For $2k per year, you could become a client in a closed practice of some number I don't recall. He would not take insurance, but he would provide one thorough preventative visit per year and be available for all routine diagnosis and treatment, along with consulting for any disease you may contract and provide counsel on your specialist treatment. No additional charges. If you needed a specialist, he'd refer you and, of course, you'd likely need insurance for that. The idea was that he thought he could make an honest living and focus on the general health of his patients, he'd be more of a health partner rather than try to run the factory or deal with the insurance companies various reimbursement rates. It sounded like a great idea to me, although, obviously only for the relatively wealthy. It didn't work. My doc is the closest I've found, but he works within the existing model. I do have co-pay and deductibles, which I gladly pay for the extra attention and followups.

BTW, my doc left one of those "groups" to start his own practice in his mid-late 30s.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

fallard said:


> We have traditional lazy jacks on our 35 footer (244 sq ft main) and they work reasonable well. That is, well enough that I haven't had a strong urge to replace them with another system after 23 years.
> 
> While the sail doesn't flake itself like a Dutchman system would, it is adequate under reasonable sailing conditions. What has made life easier is installing single line reefing with halyard and reefing lines led to the cockpit. (We did that 12 years ago after the admiral got uncomfortable handling the boat while I went forward to put in a double reef while beating into a 29 kt breeze. That was our first accommodation to our advancing years as sailors.) If conditions are snotty, you likely would have reefed the sail. In that case, the reefing lines are stretching the sail and helping to semi-flake the sail before it is lowered.
> 
> ...


We are set up exactly like Seascape. It's so easy to reef this way.

Most sailors on SN are like this. No assisted electric winches, . Its a great setup for short handed sailors or with unexperienced crew. Reefing early takes the quirkiness of sailing in progressively heavier winds and the weather helm being over canvassed causes. I see many sailors just jumping wind with relaxed main sheets as the wind progresses. The sails look Un trimmed , because they are , in order to ease their weather-helm.

We see this often. My wife who has become very astute in comparing our sails set and sailing angle compares our set up with others and constantly asks comparative questions.

Reefing is one of the most important learned techniques for newer sailors to learn. It can make the difference from having a rebellious or frightened crew watching the helmsman struggle with control or a stable easy ride. It's amazing to see so many different set ups to handle wind 15-25 knots.

Some reef..... some open up their main angle .... some forgo the main completely and jib sail...... and some motor and just give up if they must go upwind.

While I am a strong proponent of ASA courses, I don't believe they teach enough sail theory. I obtained mine by sailing with other sailors who were willing to explain their approaches. It sometimes has to go with a persons way of learning. Many believe by passing courses and reading lots of technical manuals that's what's helps them. Others take a more show me experienciential approach.

Reefing I believed best learned by doing. Each boat and sail combo handle it differently, but if you don't try it, you don't learn it.

To reef it needs to be as easy as possible for people to do it.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Ease of reefing is one of the advances in sailing technology since I began sailing in the 70s that makes handling larger boats possible by a senior husband-and-wife team. First is a roller furling genny of course. Second is a good slab reefing system on the main. My current boat came with two reefs and a two-line system on each with lines brought back to cockpit. Works well. One feature of the Dutchman system that gets overlooked (though SanderO has mentioned it) is that the when reefing, the system flakes and holds the sail on the boom as you lower the main for reefing. No need for those ties in the middle unless you will be reefed for a very long time.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Never used the ties. Was taught early on the ties produces significant wear on the sail even under a cover. On prior boats when sail ties were necessary never pulled them tight. Ideally you want your folds to be radii not sharp edges and no crinkles in the sail. It’s when sails are sharply bent that fibers break and coatings crack. That’s why some race boats just take their sails off or leave them hanging even if it means they hang under the boom. Obviously not practical on cruising boats or bigger boats. One of the pluses for in mast or in boom is no folds and less sun exposure.

Another advantage of the Dutchman is the sail is controlled and not flopping around while raising or reefing. This means much less noise (that scares the bride) and the sail doesn’t need to be completely perfectly unloaded throughout the process. Of course the vang is completely off and the main sheet loose but as you rock and roll in a seaway it’s quite helpful because the boom wanders around. Mostly do stuff myself so there’s no one at the helm. We ease the topping lift once done so the Dutchman lines put no stress nor chafe the sail.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Reefing of course get's the boat a better sail plan for the stronger winds. It should be noted that MOST of the issues for sailing in heavy weather ARE the waves not the winds. Even reefed your boat will be thrown around by the wave action. And the wave period if regular and not confused... will be more comfortable with a matching waterline length.

More than high wind speeds... it's the wave height shape, direction that makes for comfort and control issues. Of course having a slight weather helm is desirable. People get sea sick from wave action not wind speed. Sure they are related. But it's the sea and reefing can do nothing about that.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I have the knee thing. Ripped my meniscus 2 years ago doing construction work ( on my own house) and it turned into arthritis and general destruction. Still walking on it. No running or jumping. Or squatting. There is a synthetic replacement in clinical trials, if I can make it long enough for the approval. 


You guys are not in cognitive decline. I have some old family members and the sharp older ones are almost 100% and the declined ones are in a vague la la land. Its a pretty marked difference.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

outbound said:


> When I say row I mean row. Have a sliding seat cf Whitehall rowboat....


Yes, I took it that way. Good on you!

I have a friend that gave away a Torquedo because he preferred rowing. He is good at it.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Sal Paradise said:


> ... You guys are not in cognitive decline. I have some old family members and the sharp older ones are almost 100% and the declined ones are in a vague la la land. Its a pretty marked difference.


Even for those off us with no pathology, this is a big deal. I thought sailing and writing were keeping me sharp. Then I took on a large engineering consulting project and learned just how much I had slid both in speed and project organization. Within a few months I was up to speed, but there is no substitute for constantly challenging the mind. Of course, there is the stress. But the difference is it's not a career job that I have to sweat loosing. It's "good" stress, like exercise.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> My doc is the only person in his office. He has a part time non-medical receptionist, but no nurse, no PA, not other docs. Just him. He doesn't draw blood, you stop by the lab a few days before the exam and my doc has the results when you arrive. Our local hospital has a portal that engages every professional in town. He has access to every report from every other doc I may see, along the way. He has his tablet with him in the exam room to take notes and look up my past records. He prefers non-emergency communication through the messaging system inside this secure portal, rather than leaving phone messages. You can also make your own appointment this way.
> 
> He's very engaged in modern medicine and the local physician networks. He's currently the President of some local group of docs, so he is a great resource for competent specialist referrals. In my past, I could tell I was just being sent to a buddy.
> 
> It's really a great new model. He may sound like a 20 yr old, but I'd say he's early 40s.


Found an insurance plan and Primary Doctor similar to what you describe. Got a letter from the doctor's office two weeks ago stating he was going to join a nearby University Medical group. So visits will not covered by my insurance plan with just a co-pay after September.  So I either find a new doctor in my plan or pay out of pocket and stay with him until I get on Medicare (which he does take). Just when you think you've got things setup nicely something pulls the rug from under you.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

capttb said:


> I've been avoiding doctors since I got to the age where they feel obligated to find something wrong to fix. Their first question is always "What medications do you take ?" when you answer none they give you the fish eye.


Then I tell them about some weird pain I have. And he looks me in the eye and says "So how's your pee, have a good stream?"

They are like an old pound lizard, they have a set and they stick to it. Don't throw them off with something weird.

Once the topic came up and my Dr. said that, at that time, for the last 6 weeks 90% of his patients where there for the flu. So I can see that they get caught in a routine.

But it's kinda neat when the intern says "Gee, I want to have your body when I'm that age." Also kinda creepy too because I don't think I'm in really great shape. You wonder what their standard expectation is.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

pdqaltair said:


> Even for those off us with no pathology, this is a big deal. I thought sailing and writing were keeping me sharp. Then I took on a large engineering consulting project and learned just how much I had slid both in speed and project organization. Within a few months I was up to speed, but there is no substitute for constantly challenging the mind. Of course, there is the stress. But the difference is it's not a career job that I have to sweat loosing. It's "good" stress, like exercise.


100% wha I've noticed in friends and what gives me pause on retiring yet without a way to contribute or keep myself sharp intellectually. It's one thing to read and another to engage with others .

I work with many generations of managers and line employees. Being around a diverse group age wise as well as experience wise has both challenged me to keep up intellectually and even physically.


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## GeorgiaTerrapin (Aug 27, 2019)

I've had low back problems ever since I broke a disc slipping on ice, on my way out the front door on a sunny day. (I had to laugh when I realized those two feet framing the Sun were mine! Then crawl back to safety ). . . . I said "no, thanks" to surgery because a side effect was possible paralysis. It took at least a decade, but I cured the problem by rowing. I used a recumbent rowing machine in my office building after hours. After a few weeks my back pain was gone.

I had ankle problems, too, from bad running shoes. Slow progress on a treadmill mostly fixed it after about 20 years.

My routine now is every other day lifting weights, not too much. Alternate days on a stair climber for intervals (sprint, recover) 8 x in 14 minutes, plus two sets each of push-ups, sit-ups, what I call "leg raises" to strengthen the core, and pull-ups if I can. Stretching after each workout, and one day of rest.

When I keep it up I feel great and can accomplish a lot. When, like now, my workout room is being renovated and got ignored for summer chores, I'm starting to hurt.

Whatever works, regular exercise of some kind, even light to moderate, helps tremendously.


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## slap (Mar 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> Have single on first two reefs. Double on third. Single is a PIA. Have expensive blocks sewn into sail. Dyneema lines. Fancy dan turning blocks on deck. Everything to reduce friction.friction is very low and you can pull the lines by hand alone. But as line comes down from block on luff of sail it catches on the sail near the boom. Sometimes you need to go forward to clear it. Takes a second but in wind means changing you change your clip to the jack line to do it. Takes longer to do that then the job.


I've got single line on both of my reefs. If I keep pulling in all of the slack in the reef line while I lower the main the line doesn't catch on the sail.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

GeorgiaTerrapin said:


> I've had low back problems ever since I broke a disc slipping on ice, on my way out the front door on a sunny day. (I had to laugh when I realized those two feet framing the Sun were mine! Then crawl back to safety ). . . . I said "no, thanks" to surgery because a side effect was possible paralysis. It took at least a decade, but I cured the problem by rowing. I used a recumbent rowing machine in my office building after hours. After a few weeks my back pain was gone.
> 
> I had ankle problems, too, from bad running shoes. Slow progress on a treadmill mostly fixed it after about 20 years.
> 
> ...


My rotator cuffs were so bad I couldn't reach my wallet! :grin

Seriously.

Arthritis specialist wanted to give me steroids.

Surgeon wanted to operate.

I insisted on seeing a sports specialist, that appointment was 6 months out.

So I bought this book, "The 7 Minute Rotator Cuff Solution", and I did the exercises - D.A. specified. What a PITA.

When I went to make the appt. with the sports Dr. I was cured. He looked at the book, which I had brought along, and said that with one minor adjustment it was exactly what he would recommend.

So if you have a Rotator Cuff problem I highly recommend it. But you gotta do what it says. PITA.

https://www.amazon.com/7-Minute-Rotator-Cuff-Solution/dp/0944831257


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

In any field a little knowledge can get you in big trouble. In other words you need to know what you don’t know. Now much care is provided by nurse practitioners, or physician assistants or primary care. When done right it’s a boon. Better care at less expense. When done wrong it’s a disaster. I can see overall the floor has been raised considerably but the the ceiling lowered. Best practices imposed and quality of care monitored. Significant disincentives to consult and for the consultants disincentives to go beyond generic care. 
I was a consultant to a insurance company for awhile. I believe in their thinking there are three groups. Paying premiums receiving no care or very inexpensive care. Paying premiums receiving care who’s cost is far in excess of that. Not paying premiums (dead). Not costing anything. The dead and no or little care are not revenue negative. The patient needing detailed care is. Where do think this ends up?
When I started practicing I got more patients, delivered better care, and made more money if I used my expertise to figure out the correct diagnosis and give the most effective care. I left medicine when that was no longer the case. If I spent more money going through a decision matrix eliminating common ills first but then proceeded to rare diseases the insurance companies punished both me and the patient. I lost the “pay for performance “ bump being a expensive provider. The patient would end up with a higher co pay. The result was as I continued to try to do the best when there was a difficult diagnostic case they were referred to me which confounded the issue. The time spent with each patient increased so number of patients seen in a given time decreased. Time spent talking and in physical exam is much cheaper than shotgunning a lot of testing but you aren’t paid more for doing it. You are paid a fixed amount for a consult. Follow ups are tiered to mild extent. It became given worse on the treatment side. A constant battle for pre approvals and fights to get people the therapies or interventions that were most likely to help them. Two support people doing nothing but fighting with insurance. The breaking point for me was with a lady with intractable epilepsy. It took two surgeries and years of medication manipulation to get her under control. She went from multiple seizures per day to seizure free. Once seizure free she could drive, finish school, get a good job, require no financial support and generally have a life. Because she was seizure free for several years her allowed visits were decreased. Care turned over to her primary care with me alway available to the pcp. Several of her drugs were extremely expensive and she did better on brand name for the more common ones in her program. She and the primary decided in response to the costs to her to change her drug program. She had a seizure (inferred from other drivers observations) while driving crashed and died. Her husband called me to thank me for her care. It broke my heart. This guy thanking me when our medical system failed her leading to her death. It was one of several cases in a short amount of time with either a bad outcome or a death not due to lousy physicians nor inadequate science but rather the system. It was the straw that broke me. 
It’s a impossible problem. You can’t figure things out in a 15 minute visit. The primary care providers are faced with a huge burden. For the consultants you can’t spend every last dollar on one person when that money might save hundreds or lives. The consultants understand that but, if human, their hearts break as they heard or see that one person die knowing they could have done something. It’s a cruel fact it’s about the money honey. Perhaps get rid of the obscene millions paid to administration would help. Or the huge drug company profits. I don’t know. Perhaps as AI eliminates many bad decisions costs will come down. I don’t know. Continue to read and think about this problem but know so many physicians who have burnt out. Think burn out more likely when you care about people which makes the whole thing worst. Still when you complain about your docs think about the obstacles they face.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

hpeer said:


> My rotator cuffs were so bad I couldn't reach my wallet! /forums/images/SailNet_Toucan/smilies/tango_face_grin.png
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> ...


What was the one minor adjustment that the sports physician offered regarding the book?

The book sounds great, and I will check it out. I would like to also tell people to not be afraid of rotator cuff surgical repair. I have had both shoulders done now and have come back strong. I'm 65.

Both of my surgeries were done laparoscopically. I had a few small incisions the size of my little finger. My recovery time was pretty good, and complete.

My left one was done three years ago. My injury didn't feel that bad and wasn't terribly limiting, but I had some joint discomfort, that I was able to treat with ibuprofen. I noticed some loss of strength in that arm, though.

It is interesting to me, how specific different muscles and tendons can be. The first diagnostic approach the old doctor used, was to check my ability for weight-bearing out to the side. I could easily reach my arm directly in front of me to lift heavy objects. Out to the side, the doctor was able to easily push my arm down to my side with two of his fingers. A MRI revealed that my rotator cuff tendon was completely dedetached.

The Acromion bone on the clavical had developed some calcification and bone spurs that were slowly abrading my tendons at the top of the humerus. It was much like your anchor rode getting chafed by the toe rail.

Through the small laparoscopic incisions, he ground back the bone spurs and reattach the tendon with some cord (from the surgical photos, it looked like blue and white dyneema).

My recovery took a few months but I got good strength back, no discomfort, and I had to work at getting back my full range of motion, which I have accomplished.

A year ago, I started experiencing a lot of pain in my right shoulder and forearm. Then, on a January 2019 sailing trip to the Gulf, I spent six hours out on the water and really tore up the shoulder with a day of cranking winches. I had to abandon the second day of sailing because it hurts so bad.

My insurance company didn't want to pay for a MRI, so ordered two months of Physical Therapy first. It did not get better. My doctor was considering a steroid shot but ordered a MRI first. That revealed a number of torn tendons, including my rotator cuff tendon, and my bicep tendon. This doctor also did laparoscopic surgery, ground back the bone spurs on the Acromion, and reattached all torn tendons.

A NOTE ABOUT DOCTORS TREATING OLDER PATIENTS:

My doctor was great, and did something that, I think not all doctors would do. He spent some time with me talking about my lifestyle, my commitment to rehab, and my goals for the remainder of my life.

My doctor is a sports medicine specialist and normally does repairs on much younger guys, many of whom are high school and college football quarterbacks, and baseball pitchers.

I told the doctor that I am semi-retired and wanting to begin some retirement activities, in which I expect to be more active than I have been in my days as an office worker and desk jockey. I told him that I want to do more bicycling, hiking, and sailing.

He was very good about discussing the options with me. He told me that the complete repair that he might do on younger athletes, would be more invasive and take more time and greater effort at rehabilitation after surgery, but would give a better and more complete outcome down the road.

He told me that there were simpler, less invasive approaches to treatment that would leave a person with some limitation in strength and range of motion, but would be fine for day-to-day household activities. He told me that, if I had told him that I was planning to retire to the couch and a life of TV, he would recommend the less invasive surgery. But, since I had impressed him with my desire for greater activity, and that I sounded like someone who would make the commitment to the long rehabilitation process, he was recommending the complete repair.

I was very impressed that he took the time to have that discussion with me. I think many doctors would not take that kind of time and consideration with an older patient.

So, at 65, I got the college quarterback repair package and I have been very pleased with the outcome. My recovery time has been longer with this surgery, than what I had done on the left shoulder. I had damaged a significant length of the bicep tendon. He completed a bicep tendonesis procedure, in which the damaged portion of my bicep tendon was cut away, shortening it, and the tendon was reattached to an attachment point that he created on a lower point on my humerus.

Because of the bicep tendonesis repair, I had to remain for 4 weeks in the arm sling before even passive range of motion PT work was started. This has caused the rehabilitation to take longer than it did with my left shoulder repair. I am now 5 months post-surgery and I'm still working on building back strength and full range of motion, but I am very pleased with the outcome.

The doctor did deliver some bad news to me, however. He told me that I will never pitch a 98 mile an hour fastball, and never be able to throw a football 50 yards. (And he calls himself a sports medicine specialist).


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

One of the most common failings I see in boats is either the absence of or overly tall steps. 7 1/2 inches is a step. Once I asked a group of potential buyers in the cockpit of a huge cat (boat show) how many either had a joint replacement or major knee surgery, or their spouse did. 2/3 of the hands went up. Then I asked them what they thought of the 16-inch steps leading out of the cockpit (they all said they were a bit tall), and then I asked the 30-something salesman pair what they though about that design and marketing error. They mumbled a lot.

I've added steps, both in the cabin and the cockpit. I'd like to do something in my F-24, but it's smaller than my cat and I'm struggling to find the space.

What about steps for smaller cockpits? Or larger cockpits. They seem lacking and are a big problem for many.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

pdqaltair said:


> One of the most common failings I see in boats is either the absence of or overly tall steps. 7 1/2 inches is a step. Once I asked a group of potential buyers in the cockpit of a huge cat (boat show) how many either had a joint replacement or major knee surgery, or their spouse did. 2/3 of the hands went up. Then I asked them what they thought of the 16-inch steps leading out of the cockpit (they all said they were a bit tall), and then I asked the 30-something salesman pair what they though about that design and marketing error. They mumbled a lot.
> 
> I've added steps, both in the cabin and the cockpit. I'd like to do something in my F-24, but it's smaller than my cat and I'm struggling to find the space.
> 
> What about steps for smaller cockpits? Or larger cockpits. They seem lacking and are a big problem for many.


Steps are important as is their spacing. I made a cheap boarding ladder extension out of PVC pipe back in 2006 to make boarding after a swim easier.
https://biankablog.blogspot.com/2007/01/boarding-ladder-extension.html
It is attached to boats boarding ladder by line that runs through the tubing. Last winter I took it off and put it back on in the spring. This year I found myself having trouble making the transition from the PVC part to the boat ladder after a swim. I just could not pull myself up enough to put my feet on the boat ladder. It was a painful struggle to pull myself up. I'm thinking I'm getting to old for this. Perhaps I need to install a $$ swim platform if I want to keep swimming off the boat. Then I thought I'd try and adjust the PVC ladder spacing to the bottom rung of the boat ladder by a few inches. It worked! I'm back to boarding easily again. Just a few inches adjustment was all it took.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Step height and depth were invented by the Romans 2,000 years ago.
It's exact. 
Absolutely exact. If yours are not exactly Roman height it gets difficult. 
It's so important that architects learn it in their first semester, 1St year.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

7/11. OSHA gives you a considerable range, but some jurisdiction won't recognize a fraction off this. The OSHA range for ladders is 10-14 inches, but boat builders ignore this too.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Midwesterner,

On one of the exercises he would have had me rotate my wrist one way or the other, can’t recall.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Tread to riser height ratios are something architect learn and codes specify. As riser height grows tread depth decreases and a stair becomes more like a ladder which can only be negotiated facing toward the (stair) ladder... companionways in most mono hulls I have seen are not stairs... the are ladders. This is obviously because there are space limitations and a need to move up a considerable height.

Some people are confused and attempt to walk down what is a ladder... thinking it is a stair... mostly land lubbers. Ladders require use of you hands... hand holds.

16" riser seems too tall even for a ladder. Sure you can do it.

You may have to pivot 180 to go down a companionway... because you can't see behind you... Short treads prevent the entire foot from being planted on the tread. going up we use the toe area... if we go down (facing the interior) we usually have to use our heels.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

This one of the potential troubles with center cockpit boats for seniors. Real hard to design a friendly companionway given the greater height to travel and desire to not impose too much on space below.


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## DaveKurtz (Apr 28, 2019)

Well... shoot. It better be a pretty old age to hang it up! I’m 68 and I just bought my first cruising boat. An Amel Super Maramu 2000. And I sure plan on sailing for a while!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I walked down the dock and forgot which boat is mine.

This one's kinda comfy.... And clean!


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## nautidawg (Oct 1, 2017)

Love this post. As someone who took ASA 101, 103, and 105, I felt that they didn't really teach reefing. They just kept shoving it down our throats but we actually never DID it. Maybe because there wasn't enough wind to need it? Either way they should have made us do it like drill til it became 2nd nature. After, I actually took some privates at another school that we did reefing every day (2 reefs) as winds were at 15-20's and similar gusts each day.

Whoops! This was a response to someone's comments above about reefing. Couldn't figure out how to put it inline there...


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## nautidawg (Oct 1, 2017)

As well....what are people considering "senior"? Retirement age...or?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

The age you begin to forget what you remembered
Or is it the age you remembered what you forgot&#55356;&#57219;&#55356;&#57219;


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

outbound said:


> This one of the potential troubles with center cockpit boats for seniors. Real hard to design a friendly companionway given the greater height to travel and desire to not impose too much on space below.


And this is something that BOTH the designers and the buyers need to work on. The designers can find space, and the buyers need to be smart enough to realize the steps will get taller when the wind is up, you've been sailing for days, and as they get older. They need to TELL the designer they are going to buy the other boat.

Some of the designers are listening.

Take someone to a boat show with bad knees and they will point out what is bad.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

If they theyre wood lift off steps, take to a wood shop and have new made to your specs.


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## Totuma (Jul 27, 2017)

You know, I never thought of it till I read this, but I wonder why Lapeyre type stairs aren't used in boats. Admittedly, not recommended for going down facing forward, but hugely comfortable in small (plan) distance.



SanderO said:


> Tread to riser height ratios are something architect learn and codes specify. As riser height grows tread depth decreases and a stair becomes more like a ladder which can only be negotiated facing toward the (stair) ladder... companionways in most mono hulls I have seen are not stairs... the are ladders. This is obviously because there are space limitations and a need to move up a considerable height.
> 
> Some people are confused and attempt to walk down what is a ladder... thinking it is a stair... mostly land lubbers. Ladders require use of you hands... hand holds.
> 
> ...


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Show your boat's companionway steps. 

Kind of fuzzy pics, Deep and wide treads.. hand holds on both sides. I added some bins to store stuff in the space behind the treads. Top tread is not as deep and engine cover step is very deep. Can be sat on! First step is narrow and not deep.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

Totuma said:


> You know, I never thought of it till I read this, but I wonder why Lapeyre type stairs aren't used in boats. Admittedly, not recommended for going down facing forward, but hugely comfortable in small (plan) distance.


I had to google Lapeyre stairs. I have never seen them. I would like to try some.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have seen them in trawlers going up to the inside helm.


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## Totuma (Jul 27, 2017)

midwesterner said:


> I had to google Lapeyre stairs. I have never seen them. I would like to try some.


Mostly used in commercial/industrial applications tho i did use one once on a nice house. You can go much steeper than conventional (by code and by comfort). It was a revelation the first time I used one


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Totuma said:


> Mostly used in commercial/industrial applications tho i did use one once on a nice house. You can go much steeper than conventional (by code and by comfort). It was a revelation the first time I used one


Too steep for residential codes. But the idea might work for a boat... where they companionway steps are more in the ladder range for riser/tread ratios.

https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2016/08/04/2-rules-comfortable-stairs


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## Totuma (Jul 27, 2017)

SanderO said:


> Too steep for residential codes. But the idea might work for a boat... where they companionway steps are more in the ladder range for riser/tread ratios.
> 
> https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2016/08/04/2-rules-comfortable-stairs


This is thread drift but FTR... Code is enforced by AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) and I have indeed used one in a very upscale home, tho it's been years. Used it for accessing a loft in a location where nothing else would have worked. It was not designated sleeping space (writers office) and AHJ was fine with it. Current IBC allows them only for storage, hazardous and factory IIRC. Have since used one for catwalk access in a lab space.

I would not want it for residential stair used regularly. They are indeed steep and I find it disconcerting to ascend facing ladder/steps. But I think they're cool and thought I'd throw it out just as a curiosity if nothing else.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

The house I grew up in was a converted garage with some super steep steps. More than one fell down them. As a youngster I would occasionally slide down on me bum. 

So far we don’t seem to find our center cockpit companionway stressful. But if we are don’t a lot of hard work we’ll then it can effect our knees and take a while to recover.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I recently added a step to change the last one from 18" to 9" (in GOB magazine).

On my prior boat I modified several steps from 14-16" to 7-8" by doubling the number of treads.

I have also constructed several boarding ladders that were both longer and had more length in the water (the ABYC guidance on this changed recently, IIRC).

The main reason for these changes were aging parents and a wife with a knee replacement. But my knees liked the changes too!

Also also added a sugar scoop to make dinghy boarding easier for the less agile. This really works on a cat.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: The Passing of TQA John Duncker - Elephant's Child*

I don't know about over exposure of skin to UV. It's common for anyone who us outdoors a lot. Old sailors are no different than old golfers!

Loss of sight and hearing can also keep people from boating as one needs a good flow of data about one's surroundings.

Balance can decline with loss of muscle control in the legs, decline of the cochlear's balance sensors and nerve damage which provides feedback and control of the muscles to maintain balance particularly in a dynamic situation.

I sense the more concerning aging feature that impacts people is degradation of the skeletal-muscular system. For sure muscles of the old are in decline... even when used as they were before. Older muscles atrophy and don't build well or become as flexible from use and exercise. Of course activity beats being sedentary.

Arthritis... both osteo and rheumatoid are very common conditions that afflict seniors. Just look around at how ALL seniors are moving about... slowly, cautiously, tentatively. Compare their every movement to someone in middle age and good health. These are conditions which only get WORSE over time... and have no cures. They can and do impact all joints. They can become disabling. Worn joints don't work well. They are painful, and stiff. They work better with strong muscle support but without it a problem joint can be disabling. Loss of range of motion is a symptom of a local nerve, bone of muscle problem. Old people are typically stiff and inflexible.

My hunch is that degenerative conditions like arthritis are the most serious problem for old sailors.

Fortunately a lot of sailing can be done with these deficits and "geriatric" work arounds. But there does come a time when it is too much effort.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Given the implications, incidence and sequelae from falls in the elderly much work has been done studying this. Seems one of the major risk factors if not the major one is loss of proprioception. Be kind to yourself and do what you can to prevent neuropathy or distal dying back. Only modest drinking, good nutrition, normal blood sugars etc. 
Yes, conditioning exercise, thoughtful behavior in high risk setting (washing hair in the shower etc) and proper body mechanics may decrease the risk of injury from a fall but the risk does increase with age. Close friend went to dark side solely due to fall risk from his neuropathy.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

outbound said:


> Seems one of the major risk factors if not the major one is loss of proprioception.


That's a big word! Does it mean: "stupid old goats that don't watch what they're doing"?

Yes, it's a problem with aging. Falling in the bath and the death sentence of breaking a hip.

I would like to see research on injury exacerbation through non exercise compared with elderly people who regularly do resistance weight training at a gym.

My mum's lean muscle mass was zero for the last 20 years. Every fall broke her hip and a wrist or 2 breaking the fall. But I'm sure that wrist muscles are relatively easy strengthened with gym weight training (not dancing in a gym to silly music!)

A Friend of mine, 70yo, just tripped over and ripped the tendons out of both wrists breaking the fall and it's a permanent injury. I can't believe that couldn't be avoided with fitness.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

my 75 yr old sister fell recently when I was taking her to an office in LI. She has her cane with her. But she was not minding the step at the curb in the parking lot. YES there was a curb cut at the handicapped space I parked at. I imagined she tripped because she assumed the cut was were she was transitioning from the parking lot surface to the sidewalk area. In any case she fell down. She has no injuries from this fall.

However she has fallen a number of times over the past 5 years once giving herself a micro fracture of her hip which required surgery. Up until that fall she was very active and walked miles each day. I would say she was in excellent health. However this coincided with the onset of dementia... and the beginning of Parkinsonian symptoms such as loss of dexterity in her fingers.

I have witnessed her steady decline and loss of mobility, strength and dexterity. She has had no injuries from her most recent falls. I haven't a clue why but I am not complaining about it. Her hearing is perfect!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

S. Sounds like diffuse Lewy body disease. It’s the second most common primary dementia after AD. Unfortunately falls are very common in that illness. 
Interesting thing about PD and DLD is the falls seem to be due to a miss perception of where the body’s center of gravity is relative to the center of balance. Causes these folks to take small steps (fenestrating) and seem like they’re running forward trying to catch up with themselves. Also have troubles with posture and turning or shifting position. Bizarrely many can dance without troubles but can’t walk much at all.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

outbound said:


> Bizarrely many can dance without troubles but can't walk much at all.


Wild. Sounds like something Oliver Sacks would have written about.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

I have avoided raising sail a few times this season and instead motored on some short hop passages. Not because I could not easily raise the sail myself. It was dealing with the effing sail cover. It's old, falling apart and ill fitting with my current sail. I don't mind taking it off but, putting it on is a real pain by myself. My back starts to ache and I need to rest as I wrestle with it.
I had an epiphany last week. This winter I will store my boat with the mast and boom up and over the winter to make a Sailpack cover with my Sailrite sewing machine. I can then spend all winter fitting an adjusting the new sail cover as weather permits. Next season all I'll need to do is drop the sail into the Sailpack cover and zip it up. I've been wanting to do this for a few years finally I have had enough and it's time to make it easier for my aging body.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Pace yourself...pace yourself
Goal is to..f i n i s h


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

outbound said:


> S. Sounds like diffuse Lewy body disease. It's the second most common primary dementia after AD. Unfortunately falls are very common in that illness.
> Interesting thing about PD and DLD is the falls seem to be due to a miss perception of where the body's center of gravity is relative to the center of balance. Causes these folks to take small steps (fenestrating) and seem like they're running forward trying to catch up with themselves. Also have troubles with posture and turning or shifting position. Bizarrely many can dance without troubles but can't walk much at all.


Interesting you mention Lewey Body. My brother who died a year an a half ago had Lewey Body. I was able to witness his decline somewhat... but I don't recall falls. He did develop walking deficits and had cognitive deficits and hallucinations. I think he survived 5 years or so post diagnosis. Very very sad to witness.

My sister's dementia was already manifesting so I took her to the neurologist and he confirmed the dementia diagnosis. LBD is apparently hard to diagnose. I, of course am paying close attention to what's going on in my brain...Dementia has a slow and gradual onset... apparently beginning with short term memory loss and other cognitive deficits. I observed all of this in my sister who was brilliant... and lost the ability to do basic math. I would not be surprised if I receive this diagnosis at some point. But now aside from my usual absent-mindedness I feel my cognitive function is as good as ever. Maybe... how can one tell?


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

With me it’s my bloody feet. I got some kind of weird gout/arthritis baloney that crops up at odd times. Having a fit of it right now. Mostly I can control it with Ibuprophen and drinking lots of water. But something will set it off and then I can barely walk for a couple of weeks. Then may not have another issue for a few months. Been years trying to tease out the trigger and just can’t.

My Wife decided to try Stugeron for motion sickness, she bought some over the counter in Caribbean. It worked well, too well. Turns out some places only sell the Stugeron FORTE - a 70mg dose vs the RECOMMNDED 15!!! Turns out that can cause Parkinson like symptoms that MAY clear up but can take a year or so. It didn’t dawn in her to look up the recommended dosage so she just took it. Easy to see how that could happen.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

RegisteredUser said:


> Pace yourself...pace yourself
> Goal is to..f i n i s h


Mate, we're all going to finish. It's just how and when that's interesting.

:grin


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## 227702 (Oct 23, 2013)

You don't need to be super old to have issues.

I crashed my bicycle in Acapulco last year....9 hours of surgery, 8 titanium plates holding my jaw/cranium together. Traumatic brain injury, including 98+% olfactory loss and vertigo for 3 months. The kind of vertigo that puts you down like a Mike Tyson roundhouse...every time I looked up. I now have an 80% greater likelihood of developing dementia/Alzheimer's...perhaps even more so since Mom is already afflicted.

I figured that was my queue to buy a boat, before I begin to forget where I'm going. It would be funny, were it not so sad.

Edit: I'll be 59 this Dec.


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

bajasurfer

I am genuinely sorry about the outcome of your accident; I sincerely hope that things go as well as possible for you in the future.
You do not explain why you think helmets are useless but I have to disagree. I ride quite a lot. A couple of years ago I slipped on an icy patch. The bike shot out, I came down on my back and my head slammed the pavement. After seeing stars for a few seconds I felt okay. But my helmet was cracked where the back of my head banged the road. I don't know what would have happened without the protection but I suspect I may have been seriously injured.


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## GeorgiaTerrapin (Aug 27, 2019)

bajasurfer said:


> Edit 2: Bike helmets are a placebo.


Maybe so, but bajasurfer, after all that and making you more fragile, I'd seriously consider wearing one or maybe a kayak-specific helmet. Hell, after an event like that I'd probably get a lightweight military-grade ballistic helmet in case the boom might hit my head or something!

Whatever you decide, have fun!


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## 227702 (Oct 23, 2013)

paulinnanaimo said:


> bajasurfer
> 
> I am genuinely sorry about the outcome of your accident; I sincerely hope that things go as well as possible for you in the future.
> You do not explain why you think helmets are useless but I have to disagree.....


So sorry, I should have specified "FOR ME THAT DAY." I will remove that comment.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

No question in my mind helmets are worthwhile. I rode motorcycles for decades. Have gone down both on the street and in dirt. For years my friends in brain buckets have made fun of me in my Arai. Still, riding my Ktm on double track had a tank slapper and went flying. The Arai hit at its crown into an oak at ~30mph. Shattered. Between my aerostch and the Arai no injury except cracked ribs. Needed to toss the helmet but worth every penny. 
Hit wet leaves in a decreasing radius turn exiting the super slab. Another helmet ruined. Abraded through the shell. Expensive accident as a vanson suit also ruined. Still i was able to get up and was able to walk.
Both times the helmet saved my life. But also saved my brain. Think it foolish to not wear helmets.
Bicycle helmets not only protect but decrease wind resistance. Ski helmets help keep you warm. MC helmets help your vision. But like everything else you get what you pay for. This isn’t something to chinz on.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Thankfully, I've never laid a motorcycle down, but I've always worn a helmet, even as a young kid. However, at a young age, I was very opposed to helmet laws. I felt one's life should be their own choice. I feel differently now. 

I am 100% certain there a many people, especially the younger form, that do not wear a helmet solely because others are not (where this is legal). They don't want to look scared. That's sad, but it's also human nature. I fully support helmet laws now and look at guys riding without one (no helmet laws in RI) no differently that I do, when I see someone smoking. It's a russian roulette death sentence.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Should mention I’m convinced that the EU ABC is pretty much meaningless for sailboats the Fed DOT cert. for helmets is a joke as well. I’m stuck buying Arai because I have a oval head. If going helmet shopping look at what the professionals wear during races. They seem to be a better judge of what’s good.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Re: Helmut’s on boats.

I’m reticent to wear a Helmut because it is another thing to annoy me and drag my attention away from what I’m doing. 

When working construction I can’t say how many times I’ve walked into something, and really jammed my spine, because the hardhat, just a specialized helmut, obscured my visibility. Often times there was no good reason to be wearing a helmut. 

I have cold-cocked myself in our basement, wearing a baseball cap, that obscured the brick arch. I’ve never walked into it with out the hat on, only when I wore it. I need to remember to take it off. I can see problems like that with a helmut on a boat.

It may just be a personal choice. 

As to when riding a motorcycle, a bicycle, roller blading, etc. I feel that should someone receive a brain injury not wearing a helmut then state/federal medical insurance assistance should be withheld. It’s just plain dumb and puts an unreasonable financial burden on the balance of the population. Personal responsibility. Probably sounds harsh but is practical.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Helmut vs helmEt...

What’s a little “e” between u and I?

;>)


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

I am now in my mid-70's yet still doing pretty much everything I've always done save perhaps a little more slowly and with a bit more forethought. I did suffer a bad injury to my left arm in 2004 that required a lot of plates and pins to repair but the arm still works "kind'a". After that, which took 9 months to recover from, I switched from a manual to an electric windlass; and, acquired a Milwaukee Right Angle Drill with a Winch Bit for cranking up and/or in the sails. So, good to go with that bit...

My more serious concern in the aging department is the safety of my much better half. She is quite able and a willing partner aboard the boat but she is small (4"-10" and 105#) and, in the event I were injured/disabled or worse, she'd have difficulty managing the yacht, which would put her in jeopardy. And, in my family, the men tend to simply "drop dead" without forewarning or protracted illness. My father, grandfather and great-grandfather all in the same maner and at about the same mid-60's age. I have out-lived that threshold but cannot be sure how long that fortune will last and have so made arrangements for the inevitable; and, try to limit our exposures for my wife's sake. I don't want her hurt just because my clock's stopped eh?

FWIW...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Hy feel your pain brother. The bride is 4’10” and 103lbs. Scared this year as she’s somewhat de conditioned having been laid up all summer after breaking het foot in three places falling off the boat when it was laid up for hurricane season.
Still, think if you can either have the boat made or modified it so it requires next to no strength to run it Then your cutie can run her if you’re hurt or sick. That’s the reason ours is set up with spaghetti brought aft and powered winches. Still, even without power they are 2 speed and really not that hard. Grandkids can do it. Why can’t she? Think the big deal limiting factor isn’t strength but getting around the boat particularly when it’s bumpy. That and skillset. I’ve tried to get her to do the plotting, dock and do the helm when picking up a pendant. She refuses saying “you’re better at it....it’s scary...you do it”. She has the smarts and you only really learn by doing. Don’t get it.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Mine wife when I met her 18 years ago couldn’t swim. Now she has gone offshore as far as a few hundred miles on some of our trips. She is on the small side at 5’3 125 lbs. over the years she has learned to use leverage and mechanical advantage devices to make up for her lack of strength.

She had a definite fear pit of water, tunnels under water, lightening , and rough water. She doesn’t anymore. Patience was the key and her feeling I was safety first and we wouldn’t be doing anything or I wouldn’t put her in any unsafe situations. That required trust.

Because of some of her what I considered unnatural fears. She required confidences and successes which built the confidence. She grew in her abilities as we went from simple Bay sailors to short trips , to week trips to coastal trips . We went out in increasing winds so she began to feel safe about the boat and confidence in herself. This took at least 5-7 yers till she made a list of what she had accomplished and it hit her how much she really had learned. I knew it’s affect when I saw her taking new female sailors at the club we belonged to under her wing.

One thing which helped was she was invested in Haleakula as much as I was, bith emotionally and physically. Even though I owned her outright when she meant over the 6 years she has done all of our canvas on the boat ( Bimini, dodger, sail cover and sail repair, she talked the interior cushions all 23 of them. The boat is as much hers as mine. 

I don’t worry about her handling the boat if I get hurt or am incapacitated she can do it. With practiced screnerios many times, so if faced it won’t be the first time. Like Outbounds wife she plain doesn’t like all the nuances of trip planning. She can navigate fine, .

From coastal or weekend warriors we put lots of nw on Haleakula averaginging 2500-3500 no a year. Neither of us wants to cruise long periods of time. A month is long enough. We don’t want to give up our friends relationships, our family, our community interactions or the cultural enrichment we enjoy by living in this area. 
That is not a value judgement on others just what we feel we’d have to lose if we took off for 8 months or a few years. 

I am thankful for her being a partner in this as I see many friends wife’s either refuse to go, are fair weather goers, or just are not interested. It has made us both value our time together on Haleakula. As she has pointed out to me, she would like to explore some on land as we retire, 

I bought Haleakula because I felt she was the best size for me to single hand as I aged. I looked at larger boats in the 43 ft range a few years ago, but I felt it wouldn’t mean we got out or changed where we sailed, so we stayed with our old girl. 

I don’t think my passion for sailing will ever dismiss with age. Anymore than my passion for food did after I changed careers from being a highly recognized chef. As I mentioned before they are chapters in my life adventure. 

I remember sitting at anchorage with friends one night discussing paths in life. Most never knew I had advanced degrees in psychology and political science and were surprised to here me say in retirement I wanted a job a a docent a few days a week in one of the Smithsoniums. 

For me , I will leave sailing with no regrets, there is so much more I want to do and see for that to happen. But for that to happen I will need to let go of ownership. My passion will have to come a couple of times a year by chartering. I won’t hold on. Like I said a chapter in a book.


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## 227702 (Oct 23, 2013)

hpeer said:


> .....I feel that should someone receive a brain injury not wearing a helmut then state/federal medical insurance assistance should be withheld. It's just plain dumb and puts an unreasonable financial burden on the balance of the population. Personal responsibility. Probably sounds harsh but is practical.


Insofar as my accident...there was no insurance; or rather, none that would pay. My bad. My Mexican wife paid the bill with her own cash. Proof that true love is alive & well, and precisely why I bought a boat that she approved of, not the one I wanted.

PS,
Discuss politics? Let's not.
My liberal friends call me a conservative & my conservative friends call me a liberal.
I think people who argue politics are all nuts.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

OK so I turned 60 a few weeks ago so I am designated as Old.

So why is it the first time in my life I'm on a bus and really, really need to go.


:crying


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> OK so I turned 60 a few weeks ago so I am designated as Old.
> 
> So why is it the first time in my life I'm on a bus and really, really need to go.
> 
> :crying


It's you internal clock.....it's been ticking and the alarm just sounded.

60 isn't old BTW.....old is when in the US you can collect SS....you get your Medicare card.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> OK so I turned 60 a few weeks ago so I am designated as Old.
> 
> So why is it the first time in my life I'm on a bus and really, really need to go.
> 
> :crying


na na na... in USA you gotta be 65 to be old. ;-)


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

This is a depressing thread.
Make something happen
Waiting rooms, mental and physical, suck


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

RegisteredUser said:


> This is a depressing thread.
> Make something happen
> Waiting rooms, mental and physical, suck


Old age is often depressing...


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

A lot of it has to do with just showing up. I went down to the boat last week and cleaned the topsides. I was very proud of myself. My wife was talking to me about it and I mentioned that I need to change the oil and filters and impeller. She pointed out that I had been talking about doing this - it's a yearly engine maintenance - for the last few months. So she tells me ... The boat is grounded untill the engine is squared away. Guess what I did the next day?

Yep. Spent the next day working on the boat engine. Changed the oil. Put on new oil and fuel filters, changed the impeller; boy, that job turned out to be a real b.... hard job. Upside down and backward, but I got it. Cleaned the engine and inspected the hoses and the belt and tranny fluid and just generally spiffed it up. That turned out to be a long day.

The next day I was sore. Really sore. Cuts all over my arms. A mystery bruise on my right bicept that probably was a result of my hanging upside down while pulling out the impeller inch by inch. In general, I was a real mess. Felt every one of my 70 years of age.

The day after that I took the boat out. Single handing, a beautiful blue day, warm steady breeze. A little bit of ground-swell to make the boat feel alive. In short, a perfect day sail. The engine ran perfectly.

The point is that it took a little extra motivation to get into the game. It took a lot more effort than it used to for me to do the job, and for the next few days it just plain hurt in ways that kind of surprised me then and still does today. And yet, it was so worth it. A lot more effort, but the satisfaction of a job well done was as important to me as ever, with the extra bonus of a lovely sail.

I know that at any moment some event could change my ability to keep sailing. I also know that as I get older I'll have to keep re-evaluating my goals and strategies, but as long as I can, I'm going to keep sailing.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

bajasurfer said:


> Insofar as my accident...there was no insurance; or rather, none that would pay. My bad. My Mexican wife paid the bill with her own cash. Proof that true love is alive & well, and precisely why I bought a boat that she approved of, not the one I wanted.
> 
> PS,
> Discuss politics? Let's not.
> ...


Do you think a helmet would have prevented any of your injury?


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## 227702 (Oct 23, 2013)

hpeer said:


> Do you think a helmet would have prevented any of your injury?


Who said I wasn't wearing one?
What do think was the source of my ambivalence?
Perhaps you've hit your head sans helmet yourself. SMH.

To everyone else, pardon the threadjacking. I'm out.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

bajasurfer said:


> Who said I wasn't wearing one?
> What do think was the source of my ambivalence?
> Perhaps you've hit your head sans helmet yourself. SMH.
> 
> To everyone else, pardon the threadjacking. I'm out.


I think it is well understood that helmets very limited in their ability to prevent the portion of a concussion that results from the brain stopping too quickly. You can't make the padding thick enough for all hits. On the other hand, it is well accepted that they do a great deal to prevent scull fractures.

Avoiding the debate, I prefer to look at it this way. "I'm going to smack you upside the head with this hockey stick. Do you want the helmet or not?"

I agree that helmets can create a false sense of security. I've seen evidence of this in the climbing community. Climbing helmets are intended for minor, unavoidable rockfall and little more. They are not for major fall protection and they are not to allow you to safely do something hazardous.

Sailing helmets? I reviewed a bunch a while back. What I have found handy is a bump cap liner for my ball cap, just for bald head dings on the companionway. But no, it would make no difference in a hard boom smack. I know that. On the other hand, I've seen reports of many head injuries on boats that resulted from striking corner and edges, where a helmet would have made the difference. But there isn't much data.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

There’s a weird syndrome relating to head bumps. If you hit hard enough it’s usually a non issue being more common with the milder bumps. Technically called post concussive syndrome. Four main features- depression, imbalance, forgetfulness and headache. Generally persists for 1 1/2 months but can last longer. Your brain is a ball on a stick. Kind of like a tootsie roll pop. If you hit perfectly head on the brain doesn’t rotate on the stick. The stick is your brain stem and spinal cord. They’re pretty anchored by the peripheral and cranial nerves so are less able to rotate. The sear is mostly at the upper brainstem level (mesencephalon) hence that constellation of symptoms. There’s no good treatment except time. If you do it again before you’ve cleared from your last event repair and resolution takes longer and may even be incomplete. Hence the rules for no play and clearance before resuming contact sports. 
This is a bit different that chronic traumatic encephalopathy. Brain has a consistency like 2 week old jello. When struck a shock wave passes through. It’s this repetitive shock waves that sets off the cascade causing cte.
What’s always fascinated me is two things 
Wood peckers can peck without knocking themselves out. They hit perfectly on line so there’s no brain rotation at al!!,Amazing engineering.
Pelicans slam into the water. They do it enough the shock wave screws up their retinae so they go blind and die. Piss poor engineering!!

Returning to the OP. Find with age I’m a lot smarter about thinking through a job before starting.
Now have five different tools and ways to unscrew filters. Can do all my filters with no skinned knuckles. Even know the ways to capture the oil or other junk in them so clean up is much easier. Also have figured out the order which to do the job and tricks to make it easier. Like that simple bolt in a bolt that pulls impellers. Or taking the fuel filter housing off its bracket before messing with it. So yes, I’m less flexible, weaker, my vision sucks but I’m way more smarter in the way I do things.
Smartness may decline with age but wisdom increases.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> There's a weird syndrome relating to head bumps. If you hit hard enough it's usually a non issue being more common with the milder bumps. Technically called post concussive syndrome. Four main features- depression, imbalance, forgetfulness and headache. Generally persists for 1 1/2 months but can last longer. Your brain is a ball on a stick. Kind of like a tootsie roll pop. If you hit perfectly head on the brain doesn't rotate on the stick. The stick is your brain stem and spinal cord. They're pretty anchored by the peripheral and cranial nerves so are less able to rotate. The sear is mostly at the upper brainstem level (mesencephalon) hence that constellation of symptoms. There's no good treatment except time. If you do it again before you've cleared from your last event repair and resolution takes longer and may even be incomplete. Hence the rules for no play and clearance before resuming contact sports.
> This is a bit different that chronic traumatic encephalopathy. Brain has a consistency like 2 week old jello. When struck a shock wave passes through. It's this repetitive shock waves that sets off the cascade causing cte.
> What's always fascinated me is two things
> Wood peckers can peck without knocking themselves out. They hit perfectly on line so there's no brain rotation at al!!,Amazing engineering.
> ...


That works....until....you start forgetting all those wonderful things you've learned???that's called dementia or progression towards it. No matter how healthy your lifestyle is there is conclusive evidence that heredity also plays a part.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

RegisteredUser said:


> This is a depressing thread.
> Make something happen
> Waiting rooms, mental and physical, suck


I for one thank Jeff for starting the thread . It's thought provoking though the divergence to helmets could have taken it of the tracks.??????

Feel free the pass by the threads which don't interest you or wil depress you ruining your day???


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

outbound said:


> Returning to the OP. Find with age I'm a lot smarter about thinking through a job before starting.
> Now have five different tools and ways to unscrew filters. Can do all my filters with no skinned knuckles. Even know the ways to capture the oil or other junk in them so clean up is much easier. Also have figured out the order which to do the job and tricks to make it easier. Like that simple bolt in a bolt that pulls impellers. Or taking the fuel filter housing off its bracket before messing with it. So yes, I'm less flexible, weaker, my vision sucks but I'm way more smarter in the way I do things.
> Smartness may decline with age but wisdom increases.


Indeed.

Youth invents. By the time Darwin / Newton / Einstein were in their 30s they had made their significant discoveries. (Though they might not have described their discoveries)

However, Professors can achieve their maximum quality very late in life as their knowledge grows.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Chef turns out AD is best thought about as a syndrome. Many paths to the same pathological features and symptoms. We know for sure of specific genes that produce very early onset AD. I’ve seen presenilin 1 and 2 families where they have clinical disabling AD in their 30s and 40s. Tragic. Interestingly if people with Down’s syndrome live long enough they get AD superimposed on their underlying illness. You have two Apo alleles. There are 4 variants. Which ones you inherited in large part determine your risk for AD later in life (sporadic or classic AD). But the same risk factors for stroke or M.I. (Heart Attack) are also are risk factors for AD. 
As they say “you can pick your nose...you can pick your friends....but you can’t pick your friends nose”. Similarly you can’t pick your parents but you can stay intellectually engaged and do what you can to decrease risk. Personally mom died in her 90s. Dad in his late 80s. Both were sharp. Dad inhaled his pipe, both grandmothers smoked unfiltered cigs (pall mall and camels) both died in their 90s with yellow fingers. Everybody lived fairly sedentary city lives. So I’ve lucked out. Still, try to keep my sins minor and live a “good “ life. Think people have gotten crazy wanting to life forever. The restrictions they place on themselves decreases life’s enjoyments and stresses them out. We’re only starting to understand all the ways stress produces morbidity and mortality. 
Chill, go sailing, snorkel/dive, walk the beach and watch the sun come up as well as down.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

SanderO said:


> Old age is often depressing...


Perhaps, but I find dealing with occasional depression preferable to the alternative, No?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> Chef turns out AD is best thought about as a syndrome. Many paths to the same pathological features and symptoms. We know for sure of specific genes that produce very early onset AD. I've seen presenilin 1 and 2 families where they have clinical disabling AD in their 30s and 40s. Tragic. Interestingly if people with Down's syndrome live long enough they get AD superimposed on their underlying illness. You have two Apo alleles. There are 4 variants. Which ones you inherited in large part determine your risk for AD later in life (sporadic or classic AD). But the same risk factors for stroke or M.I. (Heart Attack) are also are risk factors for AD.
> As they say "you can pick your nose...you can pick your friends....but you can't pick your friends nose". Similarly you can't pick your parents but you can stay intellectually engaged and do what you can to decrease risk. Personally mom died in her 90s. Dad in his late 80s. Both were sharp. Dad inhaled his pipe, both grandmothers smoked unfiltered cigs (pall mall and camels) both died in their 90s with yellow fingers. Everybody lived fairly sedentary city lives. So I've lucked out. Still, try to keep my sins minor and live a "good " life. Think people have gotten crazy wanting to life forever. The restrictions they place on themselves decreases life's enjoyments and stresses them out. We're only starting to understand all the ways stress produces morbidity and mortality.
> Chill, go sailing, snorkel/dive, walk the beach and watch the sun come up as well as down.


My father was a Mayo trained surgeon, who later in his career when the surgery became to taxing went into practice research in just this subject. He essentially switched specialties in his 50 s as he didn't want to retire early and waste his education and ability to give back in his profession

He was very strongly a spokesman for genetic or gene cures to many of the insidious diseases which were either passed to generations, or the cure/ treatment could be an altered genetic component?

At the time many were afraid to let gene research move forward as the Spector of people building a super race or messing with "gods plan" had the loudest voices. That changed somewhat as he irked on treatments for AD and heretofore though of age related diseases. E often remarked how surprised he was at the lack of work being done in those areas.

There was always a push to extend the average age people lived, but in doing that there was not necessarily the same push to deal with the diseases which Macy become more prevelant in older people.

He often said people have abnormal cancer cells in them , but when the average age was 60 some of the cancers lacked the time requirement to really show themselves. You add another 20 years to 80, ow you see the rise.  He felt similarly of dementia.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Clearly many conditions have a genetic component. Even things like longevity seem to run in families. Doctors want to know your family's medical history as a window to what you may be up against. I don't know about this being a gateway to eugenics...

Longevity is, in my opinion related to quality of life. Leaving incapacitated is hardly what I would call a decent quality of life. Slowing down is one thing... being helpless is another. What active person wants to live as a hardly more than a vegetable?

I supported those who want to take their own lives in old age when quality of life sucks and care is draining your resources.

++++

I had my step son come up to help me at the boat.... simple stuff... cleaning dink, removing barnacles (yuck) and so forth. Actually he did all the work and I was manager/choreographer/teacher/supervisor. I could have done it all as I have in the past.... I would have been completely exhausted when done. Even he said it was harder work than he imagined... lotta elbow grease as they say.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Wife’s plan is to have someone drop pennies on the driveway. I hate her plan. Told her I won’t abide by it. 

We both agree,however, when there’s no enjoyment at all and no expectation of improvement to that point it’s time to go. Note this doesn’t preclude mild to moderate AD as the individual may still enjoy seeing grandkids and the like. But intractable pain or chronic vegetative state has no joy. Both of us (MD and RN) have seen our fair share of irrational decisions. In people who say one thing when intact and another when faced with horrible irreversible decisions when the time comes. Both of us have dealt with irrational families resulting in pain and suffering for their “loved ones”. As providers we honor patient and family wishes in accordance to our oaths. But think internally how can you do this to your loved one or yourself. All you can do is lay out the facts but it’s their decision and you must respect that always. 
Think it extremely important to do an advanced directive and pick a loving but rational health care proxy. In this day and age think that’s as important if not more important than estate planning.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

@outbound what's your thoughts Alzheimer's being 'Type 3 Diabetes' and brought on by insulin resistance?

On the quality of life bit...

One can't really get involved in someone else's suicide. Police nowadays are pretty good at investigating and good people are bad liars. Relieving someone's pain could cost me the rest of my life in jail.

In Dementia if a person has 1 good hour per day but 23 bad hours what the decision? What about 12/12?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Woa Mark 
Too tough to call in a generic fashion. Above my pay grade. 
As regards your other comment there’s both too much and too little known about AD to feel sanguine about a simplification such as type 3. If a simplification is to be rendered a variation of GIGO (garbage in- garbage out) seems more apt. There are three forms of garbage involved in the common neuro degenerative diseases.
Amyloid, alpha synnuclucein, tau.
If you make more than you get rid of they collect. When enough collects you get clinical disease.
Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s/diffuse Lewy body disease, frontal temporal dementia etc.
The above is also a gross simplification but closer to current thinking. Caveat is it doesn’t include the why for over production or decreased elimination or inflammatory components or a host of other things we know about. As said earlier these degenerative diseases aren’t like an infection. You get the virus for eastern equine encephalitis injected into you in sufficient copies by a mosquito you get eastern equine encephalitis. Sure infection is complicated as well by your immune response which in large measure varies due to your genetics and your underlying state of health and your environment. But except for the forms due to a single gene mutation the degenerative illnesses are a more complex phenomenon. I put down the burden of trying to stay up with the literature when I retired. It moves daily. Of course I try to stay aware of significant advances but no longer feel entirely uptodate. Just posted the above to get across the gist of the biology involved.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I've been thinking about end of life issues. I do not know the stats involved but for sure old people experience declining performance of their "systems" as they age (like a boat!). These declines do more than slow people down... they make it increasingly difficult or impossible to do all sorts of things... even the basic things we take for granted as younger people with sound systems. It appears that more and more time for old people is devoted to strategies for dealing with systems in decline. And unlike injuries which the body will usually recover from... there is no recovery from geriatric conditions. It seems to become a matter of "coping" alone until you are incapable of caring for yourself.

I visit a senior living facility and see people clinging to life. It seems to me that there should be humane life exits available which as legal of course. I see no smiling at the senior facility and so I am assuming the people are suffering and miserable. Who would want to live a life of suffering? And if these exits were available how does one decide?

Thinking about my own end.... I think I would rather end my own life if it seems to be miserable and only about surviving to the next day. Of course these decisions are complicated by one's family etc. 

I am thinking about mental suffering. Isn't this a valid reason for a senior to want to end their life?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SO, I think that’s starting to wander into dangerous territory. While there is a logical discussion to be had, it’s nearly impossible to distinguish the logic from depression. Especially on a web forum.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> SO, I think that's starting to wander into dangerous territory. While there is a logical discussion to be had, it's nearly impossible to distinguish the logic from depression. Especially on a web forum.


I hear you... But end of life discussions are something that is needed. We enter this phase completely unprepared after living a life where we are expected to be recovering from our ailments.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I got married, had kids, went to my first job, among many other things I’d never done before. Figured most out. Planning to figure out how to live in old age too.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Minnewaska said:


> I got married, had kids, went to my first job, among many other things I'd never done before. Figured most out. Planning to figure out how to live in old age too.


And that "dead" thing, I'll wait till I get there and see how it goes.

But in case your are interested here is a neat little app for your phone.

https://www.wecroak.com/


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## BobT (Apr 27, 2019)

While contemplating what I would do after retirement, I realized that whatever I did would likely influence the mode of my passing. For example, I have ridden high-performance motorcycles all my life. If I choose the motorcycle, it would likely be the instrument of my death. I'm not interested in that kind of trauma. Sailing gives me the opportunity for a quieter, more peaceful passing. I did quite a bit of research, and I understand that drowning is not a bad way to go.
I've talked to enough doctor friends to know that resuscitation isn't all it's cracked up to be on television shows. I recently took a class for an automated defib device we have at the office and I realized that less than 5% of the folks who are resuscitated from cardiac arrest return completely. The rest have significant impairment. I now carry a DNR (well, it's a POLST) that says I don't want to be resuscitated if I have cardiac and pulmonary failure, and I let folks I sail with know my preferences.
My wife had Alzheimer's for 15+ years and I carried out her wish to not continue in her demented condition. Fortunately, we had discussed this long before it became an issue, so I knew what she wanted done.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

My gal are hoping to go by being struck by lightning while snorkeling on some nice reef. Though we do respect the realities of aging and both know our individual wishes. She is a little more ahead of me as she has put hers in writing in a legal document.


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## CLOSECALL (Dec 11, 2012)

This is sounding more and more like it needs to move to the tread about exit strategies for sailboat ownership.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Elsewhere there is a thread about estate planning. Some guys are suggesting that you leave your boat to a trust. And some say that it should be an LLC within the trust, if I hear them right. Not sure I do.

Not a moot point, drawing up a will now.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

BobT said:


> ....I did quite a bit of research, and I understand that drowning is not a bad way to go......


I don't believe that for a second. The terror would be a pretty lousy way to go. I really call BS on those that think they would appreciate their lifestyle in those last moments and somehow think it was worth it.

The good news is, there is no reason to think one is going to drown, just because they chose sailing in their later years. Pretty significant technology and well know best practice to avoid it. Fatalities in sailing are statistically insignificant too.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

I almost drowned once. Had a surfing accident and hit my head on a reef. It was awful.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

I think the drowning not being a bad way to go has to do with the correlation between hypoxia and euphoria. It may be that once you get past the terror that you go into a euphoric state before death occurs. Personally I prefer to not find out. Cardiac arrest seems to me to be a much better way to go. Here one moment and gone the next. Too bad we don't get to choose that aspect of our journey without committing suicide.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Yesterday out of the blue the ball of one of my feet starts hurting. Painful to walk on it. Arthritis, gout? Who knows? Prescribed myself two aspirins to start. Thinking if I was on the boat and I had to run forward to free a line or deploy some fenders in an emergency it would be an issue. This morning I hobbled my way to my local Health Club for my morning swim. Was able to swim fine without pain so at least I would not drown.


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

mbianka said:


> Yesterday out of the blue the ball of one of my feet starts hurting. Painful to walk on it. Arthritis, gout? Who knows? Prescribed myself two aspirins to start. Thinking if I was on the boat and I had to run forward to free a line or deploy some fenders in an emergency it would be an issue. This morning I hobbled my way to my local Health Club for my morning swim. Was able to swim fine without pain so at least I would not drown.


If it's plantar fasciitis, a simple injection may be an instant cure. Had pain in my foot when walking a decade or more ago. Very painful for one foot. Ignored as best I could and hoped it would heal itself. After more than a week finally couldn't live with it and went to a podiatrist. He diagnosed plantar fasciitis and gave me a shot in the offending foot. Pain went away immediately and has come back after more than 10 years.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

@;


roverhi said:


> If it's plantar fasciitis, a simple injection may be an instant cure. Had pain in my foot when walking a decade or more ago. Very painful for one foot. Ignored as best I could and hoped it would heal itself. After more than a week finally couldn't live with it and went to a podiatrist. He diagnosed plantar fasciitis and gave me a shot in the offending foot. Pain went away immediately and has come back after more than 10 years.


Looks like the two Aspirins did the trick. Was able to walk pretty good by afternoon. Still sucks that these pains come and go out of the blue for no apparent reason other than getting old.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Another aspect of aging is loss of cognitive function. This is very slow, hard to miss and it is insidious. Everyone expects to become forgetful as they age. But what other cognitive (if any) degrade? Response time? There is also a difference between short and long term memory. How would short term memory impact on owning, maintaining and sailing a boat? Does this mean you can't find things you stowed? Does it mean that you forget little protocols?
> 
> My sense is that we accept and expect that we will lose our old physical capabilities less than the loss of cognitive function which may even be hard to see in ourselves. Here is what MAY??? be an example of this.
> 
> ...


Good post and very pertinent. Cognitive decline is not always easily definable as it's so gradual. However I believe the person has some sense of it on different levels.

One of the reasons I continue to work vs retire is that I manage 60 other high level managers. It requires I constantly think and problem solve and keeps my mind active and challenged. Taking the genetic component out of it, I believe that you use it......or you lose it.

I am constantly looking for alternatives to use my cognitive functions after/ when I retire to maintain my level or some facsimile of it. Many retirement communities have college course taught at them recognizing its importance to wellness.

While I'd love to remove the daily grind of arising at 4:45, I don't want to remove my daily challenges as well as my social interactions. The last two are why I would never consider long term cruising.

People say stress kills you. I disagree ....it's how you deal with the stress. 
Inactivity kills you. Loss of cognition kills you. Loss of social interaction kills you.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

So I was cleaning up after working on my son's boat. The vision in my left eye was kind of, well, off. Blurry, distorted ... I could only see shapes and colors and some kind of spotty areas of focus. To make a long story short, after much medical attention, it turns out that I had blown some sort of blood clot in the artery in my eye. It damaged my optic nerve. They called it an Eschemic Optical Neruopathy. Now, about 9 month later, I'm pretty much blind in my left eye. The doctors tell me that the bigest single factor is that I'm 70 years old. **** happens. Oh well.

The reason I bring this up is two reasons:

The first is that things happen. You get old. The body wears out. Eat well, get proper excercise, be happy, and all the rest of the things that promote good health. Yet, even with all that, things still happen. So, what do we do? We do the best we can. I'm still surfing, although my surfboards get longer and the waves get smaller. My wife and I just got back from having lunch on the boat. I may not sail as much, or in such challanging conditions as I used to, but I'm still out there. It's not so much about what you can't do (although there's a lot of that), but what you CAN do. And yes, there is a lot of that too. 

The second reason is ... oh Hell, I forgot. I'm getting old.

Just kidding. I didn't forget. The ideas is to embrace change. I cannot do all the things that I used to do. So I accept that I ask my kids to do things that I used to do, or hire someone to do them. Some things I've just given up. SCUBA? Not any more. Play in the Band? Nope, too much work. At some point I won't be able to run a 40' sailboat. The trick will be to know when that is the case. But when it is the case, I hope to gracefully thank the Lord for the time I had and pass the boat on to the next owner. What comes next? Perhpas a smaller boat? I don't know, but I hope that I'll look forward to that new experience the way a child looks forward to a new toy.


Just some thoughts about how I view myself as a senior sailor.




,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,,.,.,.,.,.,.,,.,.,.,.,.:2 boat:


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

chef2sail said:


> Good post and very pertinent. Cognitive decline is not always easily definable as it's so gradual. However I believe the person has some sense of it on different levels.
> 
> One of the reasons I continue to work vs retire is that I manage 60 other high level managers. It requires I constantly think and problem solve and keeps my mind active and challenged. Taking the genetic component out of it, I believe that you use it......or you lose it.
> 
> ...


Indeed. My gal's retirement career is to teach. After retiring as a Corporate Attorney she got a Masters degree in teaching. Teaches one course each semester. She also does Arbitration on occasion. She also takes OLLI courses (OSHER LIFELONG LEARNING INSTITUTE). All this to help keep her mind sharp. Personally, I find my curiosity along with You Tube and the Internet is enough to keep me interested in life and learning new things.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> One of the reasons I continue to work vs retire is that I manage 60 other high level managers. It requires I constantly think and problem solve and keeps my mind active and challenged. Taking the genetic component out of it, I believe that you use it......or you lose it.
> 
> .


I have met *many* times in my round-the-world travels people who have acheived highly enough to buy a nice boat and sail the world (or the part that interests them) to find its great for the first year but fixing the heads in exotic places is not compatable with them.

"We've got no Plans, and are sticking to them" is the most stupid statement I have ever heard uttered by an intelligent person. Its the recipe for boredom.

High achievers: Doctors, lawyers, scientists, entrepreneurs, business owners, etc etc etc, have built their lives around their hard work ethic and intelligence (and stress) that they have absolutely no use for sitting under a palm tree sipping margaritas. Either some early onset senility or sheer boredom follow.

My 'method' is to Keep Busy, brain, body, creativity etc. Maybe its not working, but :grin


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

If one boat won’t challenge buy two.

Now that we are retired we are thinly about what to do when we retire from sailing. 

Speaking for myself I’ve challenges enough.


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## GeorgiaTerrapin (Aug 27, 2019)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> High achievers: Doctors, lawyers, scientists, entrepreneurs, business owners, etc etc etc, have built their lives around their hard work ethic and intelligence (and stress) that they have absolutely no use for sitting under a palm tree sipping margaritas. Either some early onset senility or sheer boredom follow.


Ain't it the truth. I haven't had six solid nights of sleep since my first night of law school in 1991! It doesn't have to be big, but I have to do something. That's why sailing appeals to me vs. power boating -- it's physically more active, there are a few more rules of the road to consider, there's more mental activity (e.g., weather science), etc., and more risk (capsizing). But I do consider "sipping margaritas" an important activity!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Cognitive thinking is a funny thing. 
Problem solving sailing is not that for me. 
Sedentary watching is not that for me. 

I am not speaking for others just myself. Sailing is just one facet of my intellect. 

Socialization is similar. I have a variety of interests. Masters in psychology and political science. Career as an Executive Chef and 20 years in food and beverage Admin afterwards. I like being around people. It keeps me young....it keeps me engaged. 

Giving it up would slowly take away from my life. I have found that there are many chapters in most people’s life by interacting with them . Whatever I choose in retirement will need to keep my intellect sharp and my social interactions present. I will have plenty of time to relax when I am put in the ground.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Balance and Flexibility

It's apparent that older people are generally not as flexible... stiff joints and limitations on range of motion. This may be helped with exercise.

I suffered from an injured sciatic nerve in my right leg done spine surgery. Before that I noticed that I was having some slight balance issues. For example closing your eyes and trying to balance on one leg... not so easy. This could be the result of problems in the cochlea I am led to believe. It's something I suspect that only gets worse... as your hearing will degrade.

However I learned that balance when standing requires proper control of the muscles of the foot and lower leg and maybe even through and above the knees. When you are standing your muscles are working which is why you DO get tired from simply standing. You are normally not aware of the muscles doing anything. It's not like grasping an object. So your balance is very much dependent on proper functioning of the nerves in your leg... right to the foot and all the muscles in the foot and leg. There needs to be a rapid feed back loop to make the subtle adjustments need to maintain balance... which I suppose is maintain the center of mass in the correct place... whatever that means.

Since I have one perfectly functioning leg and one not so much because of the nerve damage I have more difficulty with balance. I am not falling over. But my body does not recover its center/balance as it once did. So for example if I am standing and quickly rotate my upper body... I can easily feel out of balance. I almost consciously compensate. I never had to do this with the nerve working properly. So my case my be more extreme... but I see this as foreshadowing what happens as we get older. My nerve is recovering... very very slowly. Don't know if it will fully recover.

Having said the above... good balance control is mission critical for moving about a boat with is a moving platform. Hand rails or any other "thing" you can use to maintain balance becomes more and more important as your balance mechanisms are not working properly. Knee problems also reduce flexibility and cause (I suspect) muscle atrophy... and this works against maintaining balance. If you look at a dancer, a gymnast or a figure skater you can see how well developed their "sense of balance" is along with all the muscles needed for stability.

I see the balance issue as cause for concern for any work involving being on deck... and worse when the boat is heeled and the deck pitching. Balance may be difficult on a stable platform... on a moving one is order of magnitudes more difficult.

I am thinking self awareness of losing one's balance has to be a major factor for sailors retiring.


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## Pendragon35 (Jun 26, 2014)

I'm 68, I sail with others and singlehanded an Alberg 35 that is not particularly set up for single handing; main halyard at the mast. All the points made here are good.
- Jumping off the boat? Never a good idea. I explicitly tell guests NOT to do this. Slow, careful approach to a slip is the answer to this. Everyone misses now and then but dinging the boat is better than blood on the dock.
- Lists! I write down lists now, I don't trust my own memory. I do them on a To Do program (mine is Wunderlist) that syncs across devices. I have some persistent ones (Before Taking Boat Out) and some I make at the moment.
- Shorter times. I get tired more easily. When I was younger, a 10 hour sail was routine. Now, I keep plans to 4-6 hours, which i calculate as 15-20 miles. I see more anchorages.
- I'm starting to sail more with friends. 
I loved hearing about the guy in his 90's and I totally get why he turned down the help. It's good to know you can still do it on your own.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Jim,
I don't think anyone would advocate jumping TO a dock from a moving boat. If you deck is well above the dock level you have to jump DOWN to the dock. The height depends on the freeboard. My deck at midship is about 30+ inches to a floating dock. This sort of jump is no problem for good knees... but it is for me with my knees!

I have a clever invention called SailStep which hooks into my toe rail and provides a step at about 16" below deck. Easy to fold and easy to deploy and stow. And makes getting on and off from a freeboard such as mine.

SailStep's award-winning boarding ladder: Portable and Rock-solid.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

SanderO said:


> I have a clever invention called SailStep which hooks into my toe rail and provides a step at about 16" below deck. Easy to fold and easy to deploy and stow. And makes getting on and off from a freeboard such as mine.
> 
> SailStep's award-winning boarding ladder: Portable and Rock-solid.


Has anyone used fender steps? Any opinions?

PLASTIMO
2-Step Ladder Fender


FenderStep™


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

A problem with these steps is also something to hold on. I use a halyard clipped to the toe rail. Not optimal but workable because it's not rigid.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have the rigid aluminum sail step. Expensive but worth it.

Most common issue with balance has nothing to do with vestibular troubles. Yes, inner ear troubles will cause balance troubles but that’s much less common than the nearly inevitable loss of proprioception with aging. You have a very complex feed back loop between a host of afferent neurons ( sensory neurons) and efferent motor neurons. The afferent neurons tell your spinal cord, brain, brain stem exactly the position of your limbs, angles sub tended by your joints, pressure on your skin (including your soles), tension in your muscles. That sensory knowledge in total supplies proprioception. It allows you to type without looking at your hands, or manipulate an object with your eyes closed. But it also allows you to walk, stand and keep your head still on a rocking boat. Your vestibular system supplies your relationship to gravity and your eyes to the horizon. 
The longest neurons in your body are to your feet. In the average man they are 3’ long. As you age they die first. So balance goes south. 
The reason the rigid sail step is better than the soft fender step is the hard rigid step gives better input to proprioception. Similarly just touching something with your hand dramatically helps your balance. Proprioceptive nerves from your hands are much shorter than from your feet. Same reason canes help. Not just to lead on but rather to get that input from your hands.
I tell people to brush the top of the house or the lifeline as they move about. Any input enhancing proprioception really helps them. I have no thick rugs on the boat as hard surfaces helps.
Falls are big deal. Sit on your ass and wait until your feet touch the dock to get off. Go up/down stairs and ladders facing the treads. Always have your free hand touching or holding on to some part of the boat. Ive sailed with 80+ year olds. They’re safe and fine. They use their brains to be safe.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Minnesail said:


> Has anyone used fender steps? Any opinions?
> 
> PLASTIMO
> 2-Step Ladder Fender
> ...


My experience with the Platismo step is that you need to make sure the lines to the step are pretty near verticals. If they are at much of an angle then the step can rip near the base of the attachment points. Pretty quickly too.

We have these other type of step that we think works better.

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/doyle-marine--one-step-quickstep-boarding-step--P005_158_001_523

You can cascade them, one hanging in another. Still need to be careful they don't roll under your foot, not generally a problem. The steps are pretty rugged and you can replace the rope. Personally I like them better.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I got dizzy trying to pronounce that! (Darn doctors)

But maybe this is why we like the hard step better?

proprioception (Thankyou to Wiki)



> is the sense of self-movement and body position.[3] It is sometimes described as the "sixth sense".[4]
> 
> Proprioception is mediated by proprioceptors, mechanosensory neurons located within muscles, tendons, and joints.[5] There are multiple types of proprioceptors which are activated during distinct behaviors and encode distinct types of information: limb velocity and movement, load on a limb, and limb limits. Vertebrates and invertebrates have distinct but similar modes of encoding this information


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

We have the fender two step. It attaches to the stanchions or toe rails. Perfect for what we need.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

chef2sail said:


> We have the fender two step. It attaches to the stanchions or toe rails. Perfect for what we need.


Thanks for the vote. My wife is quite short and sometimes has difficulty climbing aboard boats we charter. It occured to me it might not be a bad thing to bring one of these along.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Senior accessible boats should have sugar scoops with a boarding line hanging from the davits.


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## ccrider-P28 (Dec 2, 2017)

At 76, I have one big pain that travels around my body but not staying in one place too long.
This week I installed an anchor roller that required me to put a bolt through the deck in the forward most point of the bow. The cursing would have impressed you and the next day I was sore as hell. But I now have a new anchor on a roller and junked the rusting hulk that was bleeding all over the deck.
When I was 50 I decided I needed something to ward off dementia, so I took up cello playing. Right now I'm learning a concerto, playing in a chamber ensemble and playing in a community orchestra. My cognitive function seems as good as ever. This cello playing seems to feed two important factors; learning something new and staying in contact with others. I honestly think there is nothing quite as mentally tasking as playing in a string quartet and striving to attain the highest level of performance a group of amateurs can achieve. 
My wife stopped sailing after her second MOES surgery for melanoma. My sailing partner dropped dead from a sudden heart attack last fall. So now I'm pondering sailing to the Bahamas. Just don't know if I can be away from the cello that long.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

We leave the hydrovane support tubing up. Hang a Jacobs ladder from the top of it. We have a sugar scoop. When moored stern to to a fixed pier find this setup really helps. Everyone seems concerned about the boats deck being higher then the pier. Having it lower by several feet is just as difficult and fairly common when Med moored or in a commercial harbor which don’t usually have floating docks.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

ccrider-P28 said:


> ...Just don't know if I can be away from the cello that long.


Sounds like a great overall program you're on. Bring an electric cello that's probably easier to store.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> ........Having it lower by several feet is just as difficult and fairly common when Med moored....


Can be spendy to get a good lightweight version, but this is what passerelles are for. Bulky too, but I'd lash one to the rail, if I thought I was going to need to med moor frequently.

The bottom step of our sugar scoop is a very comfortable step up from the dinghy tube. Easier said than done in a choppy anchorage, but generally, it's just like walking in the house. My 80yr old Father can still do it, but I'd never imagine him negotiating any of the hung ladders mentioned above.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Most commonly there’s a 3-4’ drop pretty much straight down. Even with fenders there’s just a few inches from the back edge of the boat and the concrete surface of the dock. We’ve tried various forms of passserelles as well as simple ramps using our fender boards. They just don’t work. Maybe it would be fine on a 60’+ yacht but on a 46’ sailboat our setup seems more practical and there’s no storage issue. Problem is a rapid drop in a short distance. Other choice is to bypass the sugar scoop and run the passerelle from dock to aft deck. Then you need a long one and they’re hard to store. 
Have seen other cruisers take their dinghies off the davits. Then med moor with the davits hanging just over the edge of the dock. Secure the dinghy ladder they use when snorkeling or tie a simple step ladder to the davits and sugar scoop.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Not many med mooring situation in the USA. It's usually a floating dock which is about 18-24" above the water... or a fixed dock which will vary with the tides. In NPT for example the tide range is 8' so it's a climb even with sailboat with a high free board. NPT has ladders attached to the dock for this purpose.

The more coming boarding is from a floating dock and the a sailboat this means about 3' to 5' (or more) to get from deck to dock. 12" riser of a ladder is negotiable without difficulty. The SailStep has 2 - ~15" risers and it's quite stable.. much more so that a fender ladder would be.

A small folding stair would work. Someone needs to design it. It would have to be small enough when folded to be easily stowed. A railing is likely needed for stability (for some and at some times).

+++

I board from my stern ladder (stern to) during in water winter storage... east peasy and the pulpit provides a good hand hold.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> ....Other choice is to bypass the sugar scoop and run the passerelle from dock to aft deck. Then you need a long one and they're hard to store.....


It's the only way to do so, really. Few boats have a better place than lashing to the lifelines. I'd only do so, if cruising an area where it was routinely necessary.


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