# Cruiser versus motor sailer



## mcomte (Jan 21, 2016)

Am retiring in a few years, moving from the mountains to the sea. We like the space of a motor sailor (or is it sailer?) but the blue water ability of a good cruiser. Can a good motor sailor handle ocean passages with the sail efficiency of a cruiser. We're looking at the 42-60 foot range. We both have some experience but will undergo lots of training before any long distance voyages. Catamarans look good but seem to be a little out of our comfortable price range. Thanks for any advice.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Suggest that 60 feet is WAY more boat than most people need. Keep your purchase and on-going costs down by staying in the under-50ft range. Plenty of boat for what you want to do, still maybe manageable in serious conditions with just two.

Yes, pretty well any boat can be handled with the appropriate systems, but they co$t and can be long term maintenance issues and if they fail you're in a bit of a spot.

As for MS vs 'cruiser', only real long range trawlers are going to have a range that makes motoring the distance practical, so if crossing oceans is really the plan not too many motorsailors would make the list - depending on what you consider fits the name. So the Motorsailor concept becomes a low-performance sailboat that may have other liabilities besides (eg large windows/deadlights)

Something like the Sceptre 41/43 is an example of a 'pilothouse' style boat (ie inside steering) that sails well but would fall short, IMO, of the motorsailor description (in a good way).


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Norhavn made a motorsailer that could actually do both. Both meaning cross oceans with the sails up and the engine on at hull speed or near to it. I believe hull 1 sat unsold for several years at brewers cove haven in Barrington. Was truly a home on the water.


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## cshrimpt (Jun 8, 2015)

Take a look at the Nauticat motorsailers. Pretty roomy and robustly built. They are pilothouse boats so make sure you never get rolled. I.e., series drogue.


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## wrwakefield (Nov 18, 2015)

mcomte said:


> Am retiring in a few years, moving from the mountains to the sea. We like the space of a motor sailor (or is it sailer?) but the blue water ability of a good cruiser. Can a good motor sailor handle ocean passages with the sail efficiency of a cruiser. We're looking at the 42-60 foot range. We both have some experience but will undergo lots of training before any long distance voyages. Catamarans look good but seem to be a little out of our comfortable price range. Thanks for any advice.


Hi Mcomte,

We went through this about 3 years ago. I'm the experienced sailor in the family, and this would be our 5th [and hopefully last] boat. We wanted a blue water sailboat that could motor at least 1500 miles [with stock tankage] in any reasonable conditions.

Fast forwarding and describing 'reasonable conditions': To date, our worst case with the boat described below was 40 kts sustained wind [gusting 60] in 3 meter short, confused seas - all on the nose. [Johnstone Strait] We [comfortably] motored at 6.5 kts @ 1800 RPM [and 1.6 gal/hr fuel consumption...] that day, slightly less than our usual 7-8 kts in benign conditions... We were very pleased...

Back to the search: We narrowed our focus to boats with a pilothouse we could see the water from while seated, and 2 helm stations [1 each inside and outside...]

We also wanted an excellent sailing vessel, so we further narrowed our view to _Sparkman and Stevens_ designs. [S&S] We quickly zeroed-in on Nauticat 40, 43, and 52's from the 80's and 90's [the era of S&S designs for these specific models... fin keel, skeg rudder.]

We ended up with a well appointed Nauticat 43, and drooled over many a 52, but in the end, we felt the 43 was the best size for single handing in an emergency. [I had a Tayana 47 in past times that I easily single handed, and knew we could do the same with our Nauticat 43...]

Do note that as roomy as the Nauticat designs are, they still don't compare to a trawler of the same length. But the S&S designs sail like a dream and are very stoutly built. [There is no coring on these Nauticats; just solid fiberglass... our 43 displaces 44,000lbs fully laden for cruising...]

There are so may good choices out there you can spend years researching and looking. I'm just sharing how we ended up and why for reference...

If you are interested in more details, our blog describes how we arrived at our choice and has much more information about the vessel.

In case this is of interest to you.

I wish you the very best with your journey.

Cheers!

Bill


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

> Can a good motor sailor handle ocean passages with the sail efficiency of a cruiser.


Taking nothing away from folks who own them and love/like them, there is an old adage...... a motorsailor does neither very well. I think most owners agree or at least acknowledge this.

How many times do you think it is realistic that you'll cross an ocean? A small handful in a lifetime would be a lot, for most. Personally, I wouldn't buy a boat that was focused on that, but rather, what else you are planning for it. What else are you planning?


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## mcomte (Jan 21, 2016)

Thank you all. The size desired comes from family visits when home or away, wanting enough room to accommodate comfortably. For the first two years, will spend time learning the boat, gaining experience so wanted comfort for live aboard. Saw a Seahorse Marine Mnadarin that looked beautiful, classic looks with sails up and comfort in the cabins. I'm sure as we continue to look and learn, we will narrow down needs and wants. Both our experience is mostly power cruisers on Great Lakes and I have some sailing as crew. All the "shopping" is making these last few years in career painful!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mcomte said:


> ....The size desired comes from family visits when home or away, wanting enough room to accommodate comfortably......


I get that. We bought our boat for exactly that reason and it works!! In fact, we simply can't find enough time to accommodate the demand. What parent wouldn't do anything to have a magnet for their adult kids like that? This is what I tell myself, as I just ordered a new $900 exhaust elbow. 

We have stateroom berths for 8 and you can easily sleep another on the salon settee. We've had as many as 14 (that was a bit nuts, but I know a guy with the same model who claims to have slept over 20 aboard. No thanks)

If we're talking comfortable, than 6 is great for us.

Keep in mind, the room to sleep is not the most limiting factor. Most adults like a bit of privacy, so it's a consideration, but the number of heads, holding tank capacity, fresh water capacity and space in the cockpit will dictate comfort over more of the day than will sleeping accommodations or physical size. We can sit 12 in our cockpit, but 6 allows everyone to practically feel like they have their own couch.

Funny enough, I had to buy a coffee urn, because keeping up with a crowd for morning coffee is tough. I get up and make 2 or 3 pots, before anyone else rises.

I don't consider our boat an ideal ocean crosser, not that it can't be done. This is the tradeoff between having guests and crossing oceans.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

As mentioned above, the old adage that a motorsailor does neither well is very true. Who would buy a motor boat with a big keel which one must drag through the water or a sailboat with a short, rather ineffective rig?
Personally, I'd loved to have found a boat with inside steering and a nice deck house, so I could be sailing/motoring with the A/C (or heat) going, hearing my music playing while lounging in a really comfortable helm chair dry, in the foulest weather. But on the other side of that coin, few motorsailors have actual cockpits to comfortably relax around in on deck, and I do believe I would miss that, especially in the evenings in a lovely tropical anchorage.
Though fuel is presently pretty cheap, I've paid in over us$8.00 a gallon in some places, and it's not something one with a motorsailor can just not buy when needed. If a cat is outside your budget, do keep this in mind if you intend to do some long distance adventuring. A bit more emphasis on the sail part and less on the motor part can save you thousands in fuel every year. More than 90% of our fuel goes to the generator, not the engine.
You might find a twin screw motorsailor that you can afford, but be aware that they are one of the most difficult vessels to maneuver in close quarters because of the single rudder/close together twin screw configuration. Keeping this in mind, you might want to have enough money to fit a bow thruster if it doesn't come with one.
Good luck and whatever you buy, I hope we will see you out here one day soon.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Good answers to the other questions you asked. As to sailor vs. sailer...

A sailor is a person who sails. Different types of boats include daysailers, motorsailers, etc.

This is generally consistent in English. For example, a welder is a machine that is used for welding, whereas a weldor is a person who uses a welder. (Though, just like with "sailor" and "sailer," the two get mixed up often enough that many no longer distinguish between them.)


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have you thought about a true sailboat with a hard dodger/dog house. With the remote in hand or just using display above the companionway you are out of the spray, wind and cold. Not at all unpleasant even in cold New England spring or fall. Given you are all suited up you are ready to clip on and go forward if necessary in a hurry. 
Like true pilot houses but think they are difficult to be well designed in boats under mid fifties. Even then if you need to suit up to go outside it takes time.
Impressed that new turbo diesels do so well on mile/g. With 200g can just about motor Hampton to North Sound.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

What is it about a motorsailer that appeals most to you? I know you said space, but that can be had in spades aboard 42-60' bluewater cruisers, particularly for a crew of two. They all also have motors, so you can "motorsail" if that's your preference. 

I'm assuming by space, you might be referring to the pilothouse that's common on many motorsailers. A few notable motorsailers that would make good passage makers (at least in my mind) are the NordNavn 56MS, Fisher 34/37, Island Packet SP Cruiser, and the Fales Navigator (if you're looking for something smaller, classic and more affordable).

You also mentioned catamarans. There are motorsailer versions of those too - Check out the Bamba 42/50/60.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I am assuming you intend cruising as a retired couple.

First of all I would address the SIZE of boat you are thinking about. At 42 ft most things can be done manually. I am 68 and sail a 44 ft cutter that is on the light side. I can still recover the anchor by hand if I have to but do have an electric anchor windlass. All sail handling is done manually. But 44 ft is as much boat as I want to have to deal with. If you go towards 60 ft you are going to be TOTALLY dependent on powered systems. While there are some powered systems that seem reliable I still see people waiting for some essential item before they can move. 60 ft is a lot of boat to deal with if something goes wrong. 

Nothing wrong with a motor sailor I am a bit of a sailing nut and prefer to idle along at 3 knots rather than run the engine, providing it does not make me enter the anchorage at night. But I see others who start the donk as soon as they drop below 5 knots. Some even pass up perfectly good sailing days on short trips because they can't be bothered to hoist the flappy things. The bigger the boat the more likely they are to be motoring, at least that is what I see.

My choice for a motor sailor would be something that sailed reasonably well and just had a slightly bigger engine. Something like an old CSY 44 with 80 hp down below. I would avoid the Schucker style boats which will sail less well.


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## Victoria Demontelimar (Jan 20, 2016)

Pretty sure that all boats can handle ocean passages. Not sure about all crews. 
4 years ago, when we where shopping for a new boat, the question was monohull or catamaran ? The answer was catamaran because we spend 90% of our time anchored, we want space and a 360°view from the saloon. 
Today, I would add another question: motor or sail ? Some serious sailors like Laurent Bourgnon switched to motor when it came to family sail around the world. He aimed at a 1 liter / mile consumption at 8kts. We do .8 at 6 kts (sails down). It is still a lot of fuel and weight to carry around for an ocean passage, but from an economical angle, pretty sure it is less expensive than sails + rigging. 
The next question will be fuel or solar ?


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## mcomte (Jan 21, 2016)

Thanks Bill, great response from all. I do agree 60' too big, just don't want to go too small and then wish had gone bigger. 42-48 seems really doable. We are planning on some long passages, if all goes well. Stability is what I'm looking for, more than performance and speed. Like catamarans but just too expensive! I'll keep researching.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Take a good look at center cockpit sailboats. In the 40 to 50 foot range, they will give you a lot of the plusses of the motorsailer and sail better and handle rough weather better


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## Caribbeachbum (Feb 23, 2014)

mcomte said:


> ... Like catamarans but just too expensive! I'll keep researching.


I have always found this be a troubling "fact," even as it often seems to be a widely accepted one. In my lengthy boat shopping adventures, (used) catamarans have been consistently and significantly cheaper on a a per-square-foot basis than monohulls. A 40' cat is much bigger and roomier than a 40' mono, and is more akin to a 55' mono, which given comparable age and condition, will typically cost quite a bit more. Of course, the actual comparison will vary widely by boat, but the basic premise -- catamarans are cheaper -- has seemed to be very consistent to me. Of course, if you do a direct comparison, the cat costs more, but a direct comparison (40' cat to 40' mono) seems so meaningless as to be silly.

-


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I agree that a cat and mono of the same length are apples and oranges. However, it's entirely unclear how to level that out. I don't think square footage is the answer, as one wider space is not the same as two narrower spaces. Could be personal preference. 

In the larger ranges on a cat, you are likely to end up with two diesels. That's more expensive for sure.

Then there is the fact that cats are ugly and all.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

If it needs to be a motor sailor and 60' and price isn't an issue, look at the old Ted Hood designs for Little Harbor motor sailors. I spent a couple of weeks sailing a 60 once, and it was a surprisingly good sailboat. Also, big and comfortable, without taking on too much of the "motor sailor" look.

Good luck with your decision. I concur with the other members here that it would be a lot of boat for a couple, especially when the expensive power furling gear, power winches, etc...give any trouble. But darn comfortable!


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## Dancin' Bare (Dec 30, 2015)

You may consider chartering for experience, until you know what you want. If you have a wife sharing in the decision you definitely want to see what she is comfortable with too. It may be a good Idea to join a club. There is always someone looking for crew and someone to share an experience with. This will help you get a first hand experience on a few different types of boats. Just running out and buying something big that floats may not be your greatest decision……


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## mcomte (Jan 21, 2016)

Okay, Uncle! I agree that 60' is alot to start with and realistically 40-48' is where I will end up. This will be a one time purchase, "do or die", so it has to be close to right! I like cats for the stability and the wide beam. But, I recognize the maintenance issue when dealing with 2 power plants and hulls. For monohulls, I am focusing on center cockpits and/or pilothouse styles with 14-15' beams. It will be a live aboard so comfort is important. Moving from 3200 sq. ft to 800 sg. ft. will be interesting but we are committed to the dream becoming reality. We, at this time are planning on moving to southwest Florida to begin the adventure. I am checking sales listings almost daily to see what is out there and what costs will be. We have a pretty good budget to start with and I am mechanically inclined with some experience in 12 and 24V electronic systems. I prefer to find a "buy and sail" but know you get what you pay for and will definitely have a survey done prior to decision. Desires are: heavy seas capable, long passage livability, efficient sail plan, stability, easily sailed by couple, comfort for up to 6 people and storage (don't ask!) 
I do appreciate all the feedback and really look forward to meeting people as all of you.


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

Caribbeachbum said:


> I have always found this be a troubling "fact," even as it often seems to be a widely accepted one. In my lengthy boat shopping adventures, (used) catamarans have been consistently and significantly cheaper on a a per-square-foot basis than monohulls. A 40' cat is much bigger and roomier than a 40' mono, and is more akin to a 55' mono, which given comparable age and condition, will typically cost quite a bit more. Of course, the actual comparison will vary widely by boat, but the basic premise -- catamarans are cheaper -- has seemed to be very consistent to me. Of course, if you do a direct comparison, the cat costs more, but a direct comparison (40' cat to 40' mono) seems so meaningless as to be silly.
> 
> -


What you say is true, but it's largely reflected in the price as well. There's a LOT of 35+/-couplefoot cats out there, as roomy as a mid--40's monohull, but if you find one for sale for less than about $80k, you need to seriously find out what's wrong with it, because there will be SOMETHING that'll cost you a pile of money to fix, like the centerboards rotted off so there's no keel under the hulls, or it's mid-overhaul and there's no cabin fittings or plumbing or tanks, or Previous Owner repowered a tiny pair of diesels by cutting an outboard well out of the bridgedeck cockpit and never hooked up steering to it nor rebalanced the weight to account for the missing engines. $80k will get you a boat worth fixing and $120k will get you a 10 year old one that's basically sound. But there's no $30k cats out there that are worth throwing money at. And there's a LOT of $30k monohulls that are.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

I can only tell what works for us. We sail a Jeanneau DS40 and have been full time liveaboard cruisers for the past 8 years. We never intended to go much beyond the Bahamas and south Florida but kinda got carried away. Just finished our 3rd year in the Med and planning year 4. By the way I am 70 and admiral is 68. And we do all this on our social security. we did a 2 handed crossing in 2013 and we never had even been on a sailboat until Christmas of 2000. We bought SoulMates in 2003 new and used it as a second home while we were working. when I retired sold my house paid off the boat and headed up the east coast of the usa and then the Bahamas and as they say from there I it got kinda out of hand so to say.

We have lots of room on the boat and if you know anything about the Med there are 2 winds -- to much and not enough. She motors well and when on those occasions we get to sail she is a great sailing boat. We are never afraid to turn on the engine and motor sail. We do have the helm on the starboard bulk head and put on a full enclosure so on long passages or in bad wx we are out of the weather.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mcomte said:


> ......Desires are: heavy seas capable, long passage livability, efficient sail plan, stability, easily sailed by couple, comfort for up to 6 people and storage......


The emphasis on stability, heavy seas, etc, has me wondering what is driving that and whether your desire is realistic. No boat is really all that stable, especially in heavy seas.

There are hulls that pound and hulls that pound less.  There are no hulls that won't roll in waves on the beam.

Some have relatively better characteristics than others, but I dare say it will be the skipper, not the boat, that is going to have the most impact on comfort. That is 99% of the time.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

What's the budget?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Got to agree with Chuck. If it's a sailboat you will be able to sail. Hard to find motorsailers that sail well. Easy to put a hard dodger on just about anything and there are many excellent sailing pilothouse or dog house sailboats.
Reality is once you are offshore either the vane or AP does the steering. When things break or need tending they are not inside the pilot house.
Under ~50' you can still raise, reef and strike with no powered aids.
For two people mid forties is plenty of room for live-aboard.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> The emphasis on stability, heavy seas, etc, has me wondering what is driving that and whether your desire is realistic. No boat is really all that stable, especially in heavy seas.
> 
> There are hulls that pound and hulls that pound less.  There are no hulls that won't roll in waves on the beam.
> 
> Some have relatively better characteristics than others, but I dare say it will be the skipper, not the boat, that is going to have the most impact on comfort. That is 99% of the time.


Yup, I was on a Cruise Ship from San Diego to Cabo San Lucas and the stabilizers were not working. Even with no real storm, just big swell I was surprised how much the boat rolled. And that was 855 foot long ship!


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Small catamarans are not fast [ less than 40 ft ]often slower than monohulls of a similar length,

In some seas they can have a really nasty jerky motion.

Cats start to go well at 44 ft and generally bigger is better.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Sparkman and Stephens designed nauticat motor sailors:

Nauticat 40
Nauticat 43
Nauticat 52

Big motors, 220gal of fuel 220gal water, pilot house steering, good SA/D ratios and build quality...

Check em out. ;')

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

MedSailor said:


> Sparkman and Stephens designed nauticat motor sailors:
> 
> Nauticat 40
> Nauticat 43
> ...


How many of those have on-board saunas??


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## S/VPeriwinkle (Dec 6, 2015)

cshrimpt said:


> Take a look at the Nauticat motorsailers. Pretty roomy and robustly built. They are pilothouse boats so make sure you never get rolled. I.e., series drogue.


I'm not sure what is meant by this advice. A pilothouse will have far more righting ability when rolled than a boat without a pilothouse. Maybe you are referring to the sliding side doors on the Nauticat motorsailers. Just keep the doors closed (and secured).

Periwinkle
--
Boat for sale ad removed per forum rules- Jeff_H SailNet moderator


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## cshrimpt (Jun 8, 2015)

S/VPeriwinkle said:


> I'm not sure what is meant by this advice. A pilothouse will have far more righting ability when rolled than a boat without a pilothouse. Maybe you are referring to the sliding side doors on the Nauticat motorsailers. Just keep the doors closed (and secured).


I read a first hand account where a Nauticat was rolled by a wave and the windows blew out. It did right itself and everyone was fine. In any case, pilothouse or not, avoiding capsize is good advice for everyone!:wink

Craig


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## S/VPeriwinkle (Dec 6, 2015)

cshrimpt said:


> I read a first hand account where a Nauticat was rolled by a wave and the windows blew out. It did right itself and everyone was fine. In any case, pilothouse or not, avoiding capsize is good advice for everyone!:wink
> 
> Craig


Ah, I see your point. Yes, if the pilothouse doesn't remain (more or less) water-tight, it doesn't help at all! Bullet-proof windows, and of course strong frames, are essential. I had assumed that Nauticats met this requirement. Maybe some do and some don't depending on when they were built and/or what the original owner ordered.

Of course the same applies to other boats without pilot houses. Many boats have incredibly flimsy, and incredibly large, ports and especially hatches. A breaking wave would take those out easily.

Periwinkle
--
Boat for sale ad removed per forum rules- Jeff_H SailNet moderator


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

cshrimpt said:


> I read a first hand account where a Nauticat was rolled by a wave and the windows blew out. It did right itself and everyone was fine. In any case, pilothouse or not, avoiding capsize is good advice for everyone!:wink
> Craig


Prudent seamanship would dictate that if one is going offshore in a vessel with windows such as the pilothouse windows on a Nauticat, one would have storm boards for those windows.
Way back before Lexan, we covered our pilothouse windows with plywood on the Northern Trollers when the weather got up off the West Coast (remember in "The Perfect Storm" them trying to put up their storm boards?).
If you are taking ANY vessel with large windows to sea without proper storm boards, you really have no right to ask others to risk THEIR lives to rescue you, if you get in trouble because of it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Does anyone have examples of how storm boards have been affixed to port lights?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Does anyone have examples of how storm boards have been affixed to port lights?


Normally they are secured by carriage bolts inserted from the inside of the boat through the cabin side (sealed and waterproof) at the corners and secured with a nut on the outside, with some threads sticking out for the storm boards. The storm boards are placed on these bolts and secured with either wing nuts w/lock washers or lock nuts when offshore. The threaded ends are covered with cap nuts when not in use. These days Lexan (because you can see through them) makes a good storm board and for the last set I put on an 80 footer I used 3/4", but plywood would do the job equally well with a small (4" x 6") viewing port cut to see out of, and MUCH cheaper.
On steel boat there is usually a channel welded around the window which the storm boards slide into and they are held in place by set screws.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Found this example on-line image:


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Faster said:


> Found this example on-line image:


I would want to epoxy in threaded inserts, as it appears was done in this photo. In addition, there appears to be a generous lip/edge which would help spread a compression load from a wave over a larger area of fiberglass.

MedSailor


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Pretty ugly to have the attach points exposed, after the boards are removed at destination. Price to pay, I suppose.


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