# Flare guns for bluewater signalling...and defence



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Those plastic Orion guns aren't going to cut it offshore...so I'm looking for a more solid flare gun that perhaps could be used as a deterrent as well as a sturdy signalling device.

Carrying actual guns is problematic in most places, but this little idea, when combined with a flare gun, seems like a way to fire mace over 100 feet.

http://www.seasonshot.com/Home.cfm

Yes, it's a 12 gauge spice rack. "Cajun" or "mustard" might make quite an impression in certain less law-abiding parts of the world, with the added benefit that unlike firing a real flare into a boat full of machete-wielding bad guys, it won't blow up their boat.

Before you laugh, consider that this might make an ideal non-lethal weapon on deck. That and Slocum's tacks.

And I am not accessing my inner cowboy here. I have a wife and child and we want to circumnavigate and to go a little off the beaten track. I'm looking for something beyond a boat knife if confronted with unpleasant and ill-intentioned locals, not a counter to a bunch of AK-47s.

Anyway, what's a good flare gun that could conceivably take a 12 ga. shell without flying to pieces?

(I believe Pains-Wessex is likely the best choice for parachute flares and the like, but I'll hear opinions on those, too). Thanks.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I wouldn't get a 12 gauge flare gun for going off shore... I would get a 25mm flare gun instead. Don't bother getting USCG-approved flares, as the SOLAS-approved flares are significantly better.

Hamilton Marine, up in Maine has some of the best prices on flare kits that I've seen. For instance, this ORC/USSA approved kit is only $277.99 at HM, and is $339.99 at defender.

BTW, I don't think there is a single flare gun that could fire a 12 ga. shotgun shell without extreme danger to the user. Most are predominantly plastic...


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Its my understanding that the problematic aspects of carrying a real weapon are not so difficult or onerous, and that is is common for cruisers to have one or more weapons on board. Although having a child onboard would be a wild card.

Perhaps some of the members who are cruising out there can comment from actual experience.


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

12 ga.shotshells are an excellent defensive round at close range, whether loaded with salt, birdshot, buckshot, or a slug. 

A gunfight is no picnic, and showing a gun should be absolutely a last resort, as when you face certain death or worse. The big problem is that if gunplay starts, you'd better be able to sustain the requisite amount of fire to settle things in your favor. (Probably nothing so adversely affects the good humor of bad guys as firing a round their way.) That says a repeating gun and a fair quantity of ammo, same as Captain Slocum. You also need enough practice to be proficient.

If t'were me on that cruise to out of the way places, I'd choose a stainless "defender" shotgun.

I would NOT load a shotshell in any 12 ga flare gun, at least any I've seen.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

Ballistics and firearms are my bailiwick (my company is a member of SAAMI and I instruct); so here goes:
the _The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute _ specs specify maximum of pressures in PSI (pounds per square inch) or CUP (copper units of pressure); a typical chamber pressure for a 2 3/4" 1oz load at 1400 feet per second (that's at the fast end of the scale) will generate 11,500 PSI; and if the load is compressed and the barrel oiled then pressures will get even higher.
Self-defense or hunting rounds use a combination of factors to push the pressure curve even higher.
Much of the velocity comes from the length of the barrel, the load actually accelerates the whole lengthe of the barrel and only stops speeding up once it leaves the higher pressure of the barrel.

I looked at the flare specs and they are fired with no powder, the primers alone provide enough energy to propel the charge out of a 3" barrel with a velocity of about ~200fps. Just looking at the construction of the Orion flare you can see that the design is for low weight and small size and not for higher breech pressures. If higher powered flares are used the Orion even needs an additional breech safety holder.

Even if a 2 3/4" shell could fit into a flare gun, firing one will probably result in what shooters technically call a "KB" (KaBoom) and the risk of damage from flying pieces of the breech is quite high. Say goodbye to your hand.

Also, it seems that from the flare makeup it will probably also be bad to fire it from a normal shotgun since the the magnesium flare might ignite while the charge is still travelling down the barrel, either exceeding pressures or melting the barrel of your Purdey or Holland & Holland.

Shooting a shotgun shell out of a plastic or polymer flare gun chamber is a sure-fire way of injuring yourself.

On the subject of using a shotgun for self-defense onboard - belowdecks any long-gun (rifle or shotgun) is quite unwieldy but no matter where used a shotgun (with as short a barrel as possible) is a formidable firearm. No matter what you load the shotgun with, be it rock-salt or birdshot or Cayenne pepper seasoning, the round will be lethal at close range. At muzzle contact even an empty shell with just a primer will do the deed. This is due not to the firearm's projectile but to the effect of expanding gases. There is no such thing as "shooting to wound" with any firearm. The common legal approach in the US for justifying lethal self defense is if you, or a reasonable person in your position, is "in fear for their life" by an attacker. If the answer is not "yes" then you don't use lethal force. Someone stealing my dinghy or boarding to rifle the cockpit area doesn't merit a "yes" - but being armed while doing so certainly would merit a warm response. And I won't have permanent sleep problems thereafter, either.


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## gc1111 (May 13, 2004)

When evaluating this, remember that many foreign countries regard the "pistol" type flare guns as firearms and are subject to the same regulations. For example, when you go to Bermuda you have to leave them with the customs people when you check in and collect them when you leave. The penalties for not doing so are pretty severe.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

You can get a 26.5mm flare gun like this which will fire solas flares and then get an adapter insert that lets you fire 12G shotgun shells from it.
















This may let you get around the firearms regulations in MOST countries you might travel to if the adapter/shells are kept separate from the flares and flare gun. 
I have no probem carrying a firearm or using it in the appropriate circumstances BUT there is a HUGE downside to carrying guns on board when cruising.
1. Virtually all countries make you declare firearms aboard when checking in.
2. If you say you have one...most confiscate them and hold them in bond till you check out....defeating the purpose of having one aboard.
3. If you don't declare it and they find it...you risk losing your boat/big fines/jail depending on the country and sometimes all three. 
4. The biggest drawback for me is that you have to return to your port of entry to reclaim your firearm which is REALLY inconvenient if you want to visit a few places then move on. Imagine checking in to the Abagos and working your way down to Gerogetown and needing to go back to the Abacos to get your shotgun. 
For me...the inconvenience has led me to the M&M defense....Mace and Machete's! Won't cover every possible situation but the incidence of fire-arm bearing boarders in most places is extremely small and I stay away from places that have any reputation for violent crime.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Here is what I have:

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/9680/10001/11401/50/8

Since I just took it out of the canister and stored it close to my berth SUnday, I can tell you right now the gun is not plastic. I also have a secondary set with the plastic gun (which seems a little squirelly to me). The 25M is the way to go for defense, in my opinion. I "understand" that in most countries it is not considered a firearm, but is in some (so check your rules). I have no doubt a slug in a 12 Ga shotgun shell would be more effective, but I sure would not want to be on the receiving end of that thing. It is only for close encounters anyways (ie, someone breaking on board while you are there). It would be pretty tough to miss them in 40 feet.

I am NOT for firearms (traditional) on boats outside the US. MOST counties have rules against them - with some just flat ugly (A foreign firearms license is not valid in Mexico; if you own a gun don't take it to Mexico with you. The only exception is a firearm used for hunting purposes; but you will need to apply for a special permit - contact your local Mexican consulate. Caught in possession of illegal firearms can land you in serious trouble - even if you have a license for it that was issued in your home country). As I recall, someone correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that 5 years in a Mexican Prison (whether you brought it in intentionally or not)??! Other countries are not that different.

If you are that concerned about it, go buy a dog (which can have their own entry perculiarities, incidentally). Most people are not going to want to tangle with a dog on a boat. Some countries are stict on pets... so check ahead.

For me personally, here is my attack fiend. SHe is vicious, so don't let you children see this:










If that does not work, consider hanging this picture with the warning sign: WATCH OUT!! SHE IS INSIDE!










Hope that helps (with a little humor).

- CD


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

I like the "M&M" acronym  Nowadays the various pepper sprays available are quite efficient and work wonders on just about everybody. But use of any aerosol on your boat will guarantee that you will get some as well. If you, or anyone on the boat that you cherish, has any asthmatic conditions including hay-fever type reactions then OC/Mace/Pepper Spray might be as bad for you as for your opponent. Anyone with asthma should avoid this type of self defense and when I sell this for self-defense purposes what I usually do (when possible on windstill or calm days) is to go outside, spray a small spurt in the air, wait 5-10 seconds and then I and the customer walk through the remains. This is about the amount you will get from backsplatter if you use it inside and immediately get out of the area. If you have to use it against the wind or need to stay in the enclosed space you will get even more. Anyone showing strong adverse reactions should best stay away. Note that these materials all have an oily base and WILL adhere to inside surfaces; it is easily washed off wooden surfaces but you might have to launder your cushions.
Aerosols are still the best LTL defense out there! Fire extinguishers can also be used to good effect (although they have even more cleanup), plus you can always chuck the empty canister as well. 
Quite often, even during the day, the effect of a powerful flashlight is overlooked. Particularly a lithium-battery powered flashlight like those made by Surefire; I have one of these in the stateroom both for normal use and for the shock effect. 
I also found that a strategically placed, well-sized and sharpened dive knife is a great help in finding deep sleep in troubled places. The positioning should be somewhere where it is directly grippable by the strong hand when leaving the bedroom or cabin. That, and a piece of string tied across the companionway or ladderway and attached to a small bell is an alarm that never runs out of batteries.
Firearms on board really are a tough subject. If one complies with the laws of most countries one visits they are a nuisance at best since you never have them aboard. If one doesn't comply with the firearm laws one becomes a criminal and potential cellmate to "Bubba" (plus risks losing the boat). Plus a handgun round doesn't compare well to a 7.62x39mm round.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> ...As I recall, someone correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that 5 years in a Mexican Prison...


 Mexico is worse than that, a single bullet can get you jail time!


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

In pretty much all of Europe, a flare gun is a gun and is treated like any firearm. I guess it depends on the scenario. Whether the sight of a gun is enough to scare off a casual thief or be the cause of a fire fight with a well equipped pirate. Those who win can return and claim the value of carry arms (either the yachtsman or the pirate) the other might not return. I have pondered carrying muzzle loaders. In a lot of countries, these are regarded as toys and only the powder needs a license. There's powder in old flares. However, they look like guns so.... M&M is one combination, crossbows and long bows for range and cutlasses for close quarters? Hell - I'm a sailor.


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

Don't start a fight unless there is no other choice and you are armed well enough to win. Muzzle loaders probably won't do the job.

As for countries that have outlawed self defense (usually the more violent places, e.g. Mexico) either don't go there or make doubly sure that you heirs know where to find the will and insurance policies.

To close on a positive note, sometimes the bad guys pick up your funeral expenses.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

I think Cam has stated it correctly - avoid places where trouble is likely. 
Using Col. Cooper's color code system to be "aware" and chances are pretty good that trouble can be avoided almost all of the time. 
Idiens - loading a muzzleloader with flare powder or any unknown powder is not a good idea. They are designed for black powder which burns quite differently and with lower pressure than a modern spherical extruded smokeless powder. Just as old blackpowder shotguns will KB on you if you use a modern shell, an unknown charge in a muzzleloader can be suicidal. Then again, just imagine the psychological effect of having your assailant looking down the business end of a blunderbuss


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

http://www.seasonshot.com/Home.cfm

Dunno, it sure reads like a gag site to me.


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## Newport41 (Jun 30, 2006)

There is an adapter kit out there that allows you to fire a .22 round from a flare pistol. And there are some old verey pistols out there that can handle larger loads. I think the thing you have to remember is that a .22 or a 12 gage is really just asking for trouble in a world where AK-47's are the most popular firearm ever created. I think if you're planning to defend yourself against machette wielding theives bear spray is probably the eaisest defense. Easier than shooting mace through a flare gun. Lets keep in mind that if you shoot a local in many countries, you're probably going to jail regardless of if it was justified. My opinion is that the best defense is to avoid the problem areas all together. Research your destination, travel in a small flotilla, talk to friendly locals, don't flash around expensive iteams. No matter how well you're armed, there's always someone with a bigger gun. My route over the next few years will take me to some less than favourable places. I have to admit that there are places that I won;t cruise with women on board. It's a lot easier to give up your boat than girfriend/wife/daughter. I know that the whole issue of pirates gets a lot of attention because it has a certain fear and excitment attached to it but many more sailors go missing because they fall overboard or contract an illness.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

I think the crux of the matter is if the bad guys are out to get my property then I'll give it to them. If their intent is to cause me or mine bodily harm then I'll certainly use an available modified flare-to-.22 conversion (with a probable foot-pound energy energy value equivalent to throwing an eraser at someone) against an AK - in the hopes that I can then appropriate said firearm and use that  

There is a popular saying in the US - "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6"

The recent spat of posts on piracy have shown me that the likelihood of my encountering such on my circumnavigation is very low, with the exception of Aden/Red Sea - and then I'll do the convoy thing. 

And I am painfully aware that my fiberglass boat offers me concealment, but absolutely no cover to any FMJ round.


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

As they might say in Maine, _howinell_ do you shoot mace through a flare gun?


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Zanshin said:


> Idiens - loading a muzzleloader with flare powder or any unknown powder is not a good idea. They are designed for black powder which burns quite differently and with lower pressure than a modern spherical extruded smokeless powder.


Yup! I used to both muzzle load and reload cases, so I am well aware of the difference. I still don't think I'd go to sea armed anyway.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> For me...the inconvenience has led me to the M&M defense....Mace and Machete's! Won't cover every possible situation but the incidence of fire-arm bearing boarders in most places is extremely small and I stay away from places that have any reputation for violent crime.


It's hard to know at the start of a five-year circ just how that "reputation" thing is going to play out.

Yes, I am aware that the firearm issue is extremely problematic. As a Canadian, our gun laws are stricter than those of the U.S., but nowhere near as strict as many other places. And as someone with a brother-in-law on an ETF (SWAT to some) squad, I have any amount of actual firearm advice and I daresay choice. The gun, unless I go to the expense and legal trouble associated with buying the thing in "legal" countries and chucking it into the drink on final approach, is an unlikely option away from North America.

The flare gun-as-chastiser idea is just that: an idea, a middle ground between trying to kill a boarder and putting up my hands to three guys with fish knives after our rum and wallets. We have discussed such things as cross-bows and even recursive bows, which would come in handy for firing messenger lines to other boats or ashore, or even certain forms of fishing/hunting. Most everyone I know has small axes and/or machetes by the companionway, and I carry a six-inch knife and a four-inch rigging knife and a multitool most times I'm aboard, but the idea is to discourage them from ever getting aboard in the first place.

Our new-to-us boat is steel: I would have no hesitation ramming some Third World dory if they made a move, while calling on all frequencies for help. But that too, is a last resort.

Maybe I can electrify the deck?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> http://www.seasonshot.com/Home.cfm
> 
> Dunno, it sure reads like a gag site to me.


Could be, but we can all use a laugh on the subject of firearms...

Speaking of which, I came up with this the other day:

Q: Who is Lisa Nowak's favourite Star Wars character?

A: Mace Window.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Newport41 said:


> I have to admit that there are places that I won;t cruise with women on board. It's a lot easier to give up your boat than girfriend/wife/daughter. I know that the whole issue of pirates gets a lot of attention because it has a certain fear and excitment attached to it but many more sailors go missing because they fall overboard or contract an illness.


Not an option: the wife is the co-captain, and like many short women, she's a nasty piece of work in her own right, particularly when challenged.

Convoy is definitely an option, and a good one, but it does have all the problems associated with that mode of travel: only as fast as the slowest boat; different levels of seamanship; hard for non-pros to stay in convoy; hard to stay in contact in dirty weather and/or at night; tons of radio chatter and so on.

Seems unsporting, I suppose...but the alternative is worse.

As for pirates, the problem is staying aware of trouble spots as they develop. Take this item from today's Noonsite.com:

http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2007-02-12-6

Sri Lanka was low on the list of trouble spots until now, and was definitely a place I wanted to visit. Maybe this circ will be spent more at sea than we thought. Obviously, this French boat was armed and unconcerned about demostrating that.

Anyway, this is the sort of crap I do tend to worry about, because you never know how far the local fisherman/shakedown artist will push things. Maybe I need to get a great big external speaker horn, and patch in local navies to yell at locals who pester or attempt to board us for "cigarettes".


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## deckhanddave (Oct 22, 2006)

I've wondered about the use of tear gas bombs. Keep a gas mask and some tear gas bombs on the boat. If you have borders, put on the mask, set them off and yell things like "get the guns!" as loud as possible. Throw in a smoke bomb for color shock if its daytime or a parachute flare if it's night. Who'd want to mess with that?? Smokies and tear gas are pretty cheap ($14 per canister and one goes a long way). From most of the accounts, if you can make things uncomfortable for them, they deem it not worth the risk.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

If you set off tear gas inside your boat you *will *have to replace many of the contents afterwards. Cushions and clothing might be cleanable, if treated quickly enough. Nobody will be able to sleep aboard for at least a week, if not longer. It is similar to what happens after an airbag deployment in a car, except tear gas leaves an oily instead of powdery residue.

A very unwise tactic.

In addition, both smoke generators and some older OC gas as well as all modern flash-bangs generate enough heat locally to combust household materials. We managed to burn down part of a training house (made of metal, cinder blocks and concrete) by starting a fire under a sofa using a FB. Real life bears little relationship to what Hollywood presents.

I neglected to add that we once had a 1/2 ounce (small, keychain size) pepper spray container malfunction in the foyer and ended up paying a commercial cleaning company to clean the carpets, walls and stairway up to the store.

I've never looked into the power of electricity, though - I wonder if the steel & wires could be electrified to give potential intruders or boarders a shock. I recall getting zapped by pulses in electrical cow fences as a kid, and those were run off one car battery.


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

If you are really desperate (They ARE going to do you grievous harm) a Molotov cocktail is a better plan than tear gas. Urgent firefighting requirements on THEIR boat could be a marvelous diversion. On the other hand, you might get a lot of unwanted passengers in a hurry.

There are portable fence chargers that could be attached to an insulated loop of wire around your lifelines. The shock may not be intense enough to repel a really determined boarder, and the problem of electrical insulation is a tough one.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Best not let them get near you. Here's an idea. Have a device for rapidly spreading a long fish net behind you, turn to keep the approaching pirate beyond the net. When his props get all tangled up, sail away in peace.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

Idiens - I'm not sure if you were serious or not, but on the face of it your suggestion seems to make sense and might be a great nonviolent response. I've never had rope in my prop and have no motoring experience, so:

Those of you who motor - if you were to run across a line of floating nylon rope at high speed in a flat-bottomed powerboat what are the chances of the propellor fouling? 

If the odds are very high of that happening you would have the boating equivalent of police stop sticks; at least for boats approaching from directly astern!


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

Idiens said:


> Best not let them get near you. Here's an idea. Have a device for rapidly spreading a long fish net behind you, turn to keep the approaching pirate beyond the net. When his props get all tangled up, sail away in peace.


And what kind of device might that be?


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

I was thinking of getting 50 feet or more of floating nylon, attaching a weight to each end and using a fisherman's net throwing technique to put the rope in the pursuer's path. Could even be just 25 feet of rope from close enough to make evasion difficult.

I just don't know what the likelihood of the prop actually fouling is going to be.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Zanshin said:


> I just don't know what the likelihood of the prop actually fouling is going to be.


I don't know, either, but it would be easy to assemble 20 or 30 ten foot lengths of 3/16th" polyprop line in a bag on the rail and just dump it aft.

I like this brainstorming, guys. Keep it up!


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## Denr (Feb 7, 2001)

You'll want to have the 12 guage flares on hand to exterminate those pesky jet skis!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BTW, there is a company that makes a system for "electrifying" your lifelines. Won't be lethal, but will be pretty unpleasant from what I understand.


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## maestro (May 3, 2002)

*just don't be captain stupid..........*

of all the stupid things to do....he must be a powerboater going for a ride


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think Cam has stated it correctly - avoid places where trouble is likely. 
Using Col. Cooper's color code system to be "aware" and chances are pretty good that trouble can be avoided almost all of the time. 

Zanshin,
It's refreshing to read Jeff Coopers name here on Sailnet, thanks for mentioning it. Arizona to England? Talk about contrast and comparison concerning self defense rights. 
I find this discussion interesting. Those that have no self defense training, and then self defense instructors in the same forum. Your patience is admirable explaining ballistic and compression data. One would experience about the same effect holding a 12 guage round in the palm of his hand and striking a blow to the firing pin compared to exploding it inside of a plastic flaregun. The only small difference might be that there would then be varying size pieces of plastic impalled in his eyes, ears or flesh from the flare gun. I think that I can skip that.
Pirates. Robbers. Perpertrators, Theives, Kidnappers. They are out there and they are everywhere. Cooper explains that given the chance about 10 individuals out of 100 (this is an American statitic) has served time in prison, is in prison, or will be in prison. This is sobering. It's a very dangerous world. Peter Blake, how sad. It can happen to anyone, anywhere, anytime. Cooper sugested that a 50 calibar automatic weapon deck mounted should be adequate, but additionally he added that a pistol in the right hands could go a long ways. 
My vessel was assulted at an anchorage on a clear sky afternoon. I could have called for help but I doubt if anyone would have heard my VHF, and even if they had it would have done nothing to prevent it. Those perps didn't care, they weren't monitoring the radio. I wouldn't even consider a flare gun, that will do nothing but get my crew/me into the statistic column. Those three bad guys could have seen angels that afternoon, but they made the correct choice to leave en haste. It ruined my day, but the crew and I were able to sail the next one. Could I have been hurt? Yep. Could I have been dead? Yep. So are we going to live forever anyways? We just had a tragedy occur in Utah. You probably heard about it. Those folks did not expect to go to go shopping that day and end up with a toe tag. Vigilance is most important. To be well trained is of upmost importance.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

Rick - I met Col. Cooper years ago and he was an interesting and charismatic person. I've been up at Gunsite as well (on both sides of the classroom table). Even before learning of the color codes I always believed that mindset was at the foundation of all self-defense action - after that comes preparation and practice. Fortunately you weren't boarded and didn't have to act that time at anchorage - but perhaps the perps were dissuaded by the attitude that comes from having the right mindset.

I'm still intrigued by the idea of using ropes or other means to foul a propellor. From many of the accounts on Noonsite it seems that potential pirates are using vessels only slightly faster than the yachts. If that is the case, then it is quite likely that they'd be directly astern - but I still don't know how effective rope might be. I won't prepare a "pirate bag" like a marine version of caltrops, but if I'm ever in a position like that I'll now have an extra option and will certainly think about dumping some of my 100's of feet of spare yellow poly overboard.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Zanshin said:


> From many of the accounts on Noonsite it seems that potential pirates are using vessels only slightly faster than the yachts. If that is the case, then it is quite likely that they'd be directly astern - but I still don't know how effective rope might be. I won't prepare a "pirate bag" like a marine version of caltrops, but if I'm ever in a position like that I'll now have an extra option and will certainly think about dumping some of my 100's of feet of spare yellow poly overboard.


The guns are only an option if illegally bought and then dumped prior to port in most countries beyond the U.S. I carry Canadian and EU passports, and I'm going to have an eight-year-old aboard. Guns are not feasible for me, despite no moral objection to shooting saltwater thugs. Aside from the huge legal issues, I don't really want to escalate things to that level with a kid aboard.

That's why I'm exploring options like flare guns. I know a 12 gauge will shatter a plastic flare gun...so are there metal flare guns that aren't also considered weapons in 95% of the ports of the world?

Formerly "safe" ports are becoming dangerous, but I would rather sail prudently than sail scared. Having 14 tons of steel moving at eight knots is going to deter pursuit, especially if I stay inside the tempered glass and 1/2" Lexan pilothouse and just ram the buggers...or look as if I might.

If we are boarded while asleep, the tacks still work. So do motion detectors that trigger deck lights, loudspeakers and "all **** breaking loose" sirens and flashers. Probably the best thing is not to look like the best boat in the harbour and to moor/anchor some distance from shore, but still within "the neighbourhood" of other cruisers. I also suspect that older cruising couples with expensive outboards on sparkly Zodiacs in davits get hit more often than younger, or relatively so, cruisers.

I am hoping that a combination of prudence, caution and deterrence will keep us safe, and that if we are overwhelmed or otherwise caught unawares, I will keep my temper and just let 'em have stuff...because I can always get more stuff...I can't get dead family members back or myself, if I get shot or stabbed by some desperate Third World bastard.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One thing, when quoting statistics about Americans and how many have been in prison... we tend to have alot of people in prison thanks to mandatory sentencing for drug-related offenses. A lot of people who deserve to be in jail, often aren't, and a lot of people who don't really deserve to be behind bars, are.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

*and a lot of people who don't really deserve to be behind bars, are.

*Awwww...the poor criminals are actually serving time. That must be something the ACLU could do something about.


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## BeneteauMark (Nov 7, 2002)

I read an article years and years ago, done in response to some state (Massecusetts, as I recall) that claimed that the 12 gage flare pistols fell under their handgun ban laws. The state's theory was that you could fire a 12 gage shotgun shell from one. The article was a test of the theory.

It took a lot of forcing to get the shell into the flare gun, because the flare gun has some strategically located ribs in its barrel to prevent such a thing. Upon trigger pull, the result was a big KB, with shreds of flare pistol all over the place. 

I'm a fan of shotguns for personal defense close in, but have to agree that its a huge headache going outside US waters with firearms.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I seem to recall an ad I saw in sail magazine about 4 months back. The ad was for an insert for a flair gun to turn it into a single shot 38. I meant to save the ad but didn't. I will see if I still have the issue.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I want to keep them off the boat, not just wing them or piss them off. A single shot .38 isn't really going to help...I'd rather make Molotov cocktails and rig the deck crane as a trebuchet...hey...that's not a bad idea...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Mark-
IIRC some states specifically exclude flare guns, often only if they are aboard boats or in transit to them, etc. And other states are express about anything that fires a projectile, by springs, compressed air, explosive charge, etc., is a firearm and an illegal one unless it is properly licensed.
Bottom line, you need to get the firearms laws CD (there's a guy selling them) to get the laws for all 50 states in the US, and make enquiries separately for overseas.

Such a big planet, there's just no need to visit some parts of it.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

There must surely be a few old "line throwing appliances" floating around out there somewhere. Up until around 1970, all merchant and navy ships carried them. They look like a small cannon (they are) and are approx. 3 ft long, weigh about 150 lbs and fire a 32lb projectile-if memory serves me right. The purpose was to fire a line attached to the projectile for purposes of rigging a breaches buoy from ship to shore. They'll fire the projectile between 1/4 - 1/2 mile. They do require bags of black powder and due to the instability of same went out of style. The rocket guns that replaced them were hilarious, as well as totally ineffective and unreliable. Training with those resulted in anyone who'd seen them before finding a stout bulkhead to hide behind, and the deck cadet was always nominated as the operator.

We used to fire off the line throwing appliance in the early am at Kings Point, off Crowninshield pier. I can't recall if the lack of black powder from the Navy or a lobsterman we inadvertantly bracketed was the cause of the cessation of those early morning training exercises. It wasn't lack of professional guidance; our bosun' was a plank owner on the "Big Mo" and served in No. 3 turret.

Now due to their weight, one would have to consider placement as bow or stern chaser ahead of time, as well as trim considerations. Clading the transom in say 1/2" steel plate should give ample material for securing the recoil tackle. Merchant ships used steel padeyes welded to the deck. These are mere trifles when you consider the ramifications of raising the art of self defense to the realm of a long prized sea-going skill-the art of naval gunnery.

Given the resources at the fingertips of the sailnet navy I anticipate little difficulty in acquiring the line throwing appliance (USCG term-it figures) and the requisite gun powder. I have taken it upon myself to enlist two senior members for the necessary training exercise. Camaraderie has graciously lent his vessel for outfitting with the line throwing appliance. My apologies to those others who applied for this prestigous position but your vessels were found wanting. Camaraderie has an extra mast, and it was thought that this might prove beneficial if the recoil calculations proved faulty. Stay current with me though, there is a better than even chance that other vessels, while less suitable, may be called upon for future tests. Giulietta has audaciously claimed the right as pursuit vessel. I forget all of the details, my eyes were glazing over, but I do recall mention of how the Portugese actually invented the privateer and something about his aunt being the first to board-the rest of his claims disintegrated into something approaching a teletype machine on cocaine-I'm sure they'll be reiterated at some point. The only detail to work out as yet remains a location for the initial test. Camaraderie has some fixation about twelve miles offshore, but I confees I may not have understood him correctly-he was sort of mumbling, I think the single malt was either wearing off, or maybe taking hold. Get back to me on locations, I've got quite a bit invested in this. How was I to know Cam would actually know the difference between Dewar's and GlenMorangie?


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

A bit of Googling the net (incredible how that is now a legal English verb) has come up with evidence that a rope isn't too likely to snag and wrap around the prop, so that rather passive method of self-defence is going to remain a last-ditch effort to prevent being followed.

For those of you who are going to remain in the USA and are worried about boarders / (non-Government) pirates and do wish to have a firearm aboard you are actually in luck. No matter what a given state's firearms laws are, if you are a traveller through that State the Federal laws allow you passage. The 2006 Travelers Guide To Firearms Laws Of 50 States is a good book to use as a reference. Many states require a locked case for the firearm and separate storage of the ammunition when transiting, usually stating that the firearm should be in the trunk (i.e. unreachable while moving). On a boat that is tough to comply with, so it cannot be enforced. And one might always argue that the components were kept separately but that enough advance warning was given by the bad guys to prepare one's self-defense. So as long as your ownership and possession of the firearm in your home state is legal, you do have a lot of options whilst travelling. In addition, if you acquire a concealed carry permit in FLA, AZ and NV the reciprocity laws cover many of the other states (but I seem to remember that it seems to be mainly the inland ones).


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Goodnewsboy said:


> And what kind of device might that be?


Well, throwing devices might not be much use and might provide a visible warning to the pirate. I wonder if mini versions of those minesweeper side trawls would work. A finned float at each end of the net that, when towed, spread apart with the net between them. Once the two lines are as far apart as they will go, they are released, together with the hopefully trapped pirate. I think it has to be a net in between, to maximise the chance of propellor capture.


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

Once upon a time, the U. S. Constitution was the law of the land and its *Full Faith and Credit* clause required states to accept the enactments of any other. Funny how it works for driving licenses but not for gun permits.


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

Shocking that a posting about Guns and Self Defense would draw this much attention! With guys!


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

I think the amazing thing is that this one hasn't gone into extreme thread drift and become a political debate about firearms themselves. Then again, there's still room left to drift off on that tangent. With a bit of fomenting we might be able to catch up the Oz Customs thread or the "interesting" thread. We would have to nurture the responses carefully to make sure it doesn't die out, though


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Sailaway-
How does one translate "spud cannon" into odd languages anyway?<G>

Valiente has a point, proper Molotov cocktails (which self-ignite on landing, they are not just gas bombs that need to be lit before throwing) can be indistinguishable from anything else in the paint locker.

Wandering sailors aren't the only folks who have had to learn how to hide arms in plain sight.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Lots of possibilities with primative weapons. A length of tube makes an excellent blow pipe and sail needles make good darts. Remarkably accurate and fairly silent too. If you've ever tried fencing, a foil can be hidden almost anywhere and without the guard almost unrecognisable. I was never much good with throwing knives, I wonder how much effort is needed to penetrate the hyperlon walls of a rib.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

Lol, now we are going to add The Anarchist's Cookbook to a well-found sailboat's library.

A foil is only good for piercing, get a cutlass with both edge and point. Or a katana. I'd declare that as a cooking utensil [for very big fish].


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Actually, I don't think there are many laws that apply to owning a sword... they're generally considered relatively benign as weapons, not being able to kill at a great distance, as can firearms. Molotov cocktails are a solution, as most boats will have some gasoline or kerosene on them, and all you need is some glass bottles and cotton t-shirts for wicks... basic and effective... but relatively short-ranged. 

The potato gun idea isn't a bad one...as you could fire things a bit more dangerous than potatoes out of it. 

A flare gun itself is a rather dangerous beastie, especially at short range. 

The real problem is that no matter how well armed you are, unless you are willing to use the weapons, having them means nothing. Also, there is the problem of target identification... what happens if the "pirates" are just local fishermen looking to trade fish for cigarettes... and you open fire on them... legally, you're now toast.

Probably the best thing is to avoid areas that are questionable.


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

At's not a knife, this ere's a knife:
http://www.galatiinternational.com/..._Code=KB1249&Category_Code=roundtriggerguards


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

When it comes to Kukris, I think nothing beats the Cold Steel Kukri. I do recall they also make cane swords, which are certainly easily concealable and innocuous on a boat.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Perhaps a practical use for those surgical tubing based water-ballon launchers?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Don't laugh. I've seen some remarkable things done with slingshots and 1/2 inch steel ball bearings.

I have no compunction against using weapons (I'm willing to ram people, after all) but the original link I posted does show that the main difficulty is distinguishing enthusiastic locals from likely pirates or salt-water muggers. I suppose you could bother to learn "no cigarettes, no beer" in the local lingo and bellow it through a loud speaker, but at the same time, it's usually not going to be my country or my culture, and I don't want to be seen as the unfriendly foreign bastard who won't even CONSIDER buying a fish or some trinket...even though this is obviously the best pretext by which a pirate can approach a private yacht.

The kukri looks nice, but again, I am ideally looking for ways to discourage boarding in the first place. I am assuming that if we are confronted with ten guys in a 30 foot speedboat that makes 20 knots, we are going to "give it up", but it seems like a lot of these at-sea robberies, or attempting robberies, are knife or machete-wielding fishermen having a bad day who see the yacht as an easy crime of opportunity. Them, I want to turn into shark-snacks.


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

For knife/sword fans, edged weapons have already been thought of by the Euroweenies and they are regulated in most of those countries. It's coming in the USA.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

Goodnewsboy - actually, the regulation of edged weapons is as tight if not more in most states than in much of western europe; probably a compensatory mechanism for the banning or heavy restriction of firearms. For example, spring-assisted folders are not allowed in many US states while they are allowed in Germany/BeNeLux. Then again, getting a firearms carry permit in MA was like going through the inquisition - and that in home of S&W.


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

Welcome to Taxachusetts. Nothing is too good for our taxpayers!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I thought it was the peoples republic of Massachusetts.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie said:


> *and a lot of people who don't really deserve to be behind bars, are.
> 
> *Awwww...the poor criminals are actually serving time. That must be something the ACLU could do something about.


Bravo Cam; if we build it they will come?


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## nauticalnut (Sep 5, 2006)

Swords are great, swords are romantic, swords are no match for a AK-47. Not to mention anything over a 18in blade length on board a boat is useless since there is no room to swing it. Plus, as with a gun, you really need to know HOW to use it; This is coming from someone who has 14 years of training in swordfighting and fencing.

Sword canes are nice, I own 2. and I imagine the port authorities around the world are familiar with them as well.

A Crossbow is a possibility, but the reload time is brutal, not to mention you only get 1 shot.

12ga Shotgun shells: just say no. C'mon. There is no room inside a boat to wield a 18in barrel 12ga. Even a "sawed off" shotgun will give you grief due to the enhanced shot scatter pattern this may make it easier to hit your target, but the ricochet to you could be about as bad as being on the business end of the gun. A 12ga in a flre gun? Can you say RECOIL? If your lucky, and the gun dosn't explode on you, you will break your hand.

Keep in mind that when your shooting any firearm on deck that your moving every which way, and so is your target. good luck hitting anything; even with a 12ga.

I am not going to even touch the legalities of the above; common sense should tell you the answer to that.

One possibility:

\http://www.captainforhire.com/products.htm

This in a Military Surplus 25mm flair gun using a .38 calibre birdshot round MIGHT be a solution. Other than that, the best thing I can say is get some self defense training under your belt.


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

Anyone who believes an illegal substance(?) found in personal use amounts should result in incarceration should seriously reconsider his sobriquet.


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

tigerregis said:


> Anyone who believes an illegal substance(?) found in personal use amounts should result in incarceration should seriously reconsider his sobriquet.


Just because it's for your own use it's not a crime to do something illegal? I need some extra money for spring commissioning so it's OK to rob a bank if it's just for me isn't it.

If you think drugs are like alcohol and they are OK then lobby to change the law instead of encouraging someone to do something illegal.
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

Incarceration! I neither advised nor consented to illegal activity.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

nauticalnut said:


> .....This is coming from someone who has 14 years of training in swordfighting and fencing...
> 
> 
> > Nauticalnut - I was an Iaido instructor until recently and have been doing Aikiken since I was 12; so I might be able to comment a bit on that subject. Edged weapons have been around for thousands of years and have evolved into very efficient tools. Statistics collected in the USA show that lethality is higher with edged weapons than handguns. The adage of "not bringing a knife to a gunfight" notwithstanding, an edged weapon remains a very potent self-defense mechanism. And an epee isn't a cutting tool but a thrusting one that keeps a potential aggressor at a distance.
> ...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Zanshin, don't forget that in England now there is a movement afoot to make pointed knives illegal. That's right, ordinary kitchen knives are being used in hackings and stabbings and since there's really no need for a pointed knife in the home, there's a nicely organized movement in England to get these devastating and unnecessary weapons banned. No more production, and pehaps blunting the ones that are allowed to be kept.

I refuse to comment on the sanity of the group members, but suggest that the million Hutus and Tutsis who were hacked to death mainly with machetes (production cost, ten cents each, sale cost, $1 each) are proof that edged weapons still are in business.


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

Don't take a knife to a gunfight. It's still good advice.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I find myself in the rare position of agreeing with two posters, with conflicting opinions, at the same time. Probably never happen again.

I do think it folly to lock up individuals with small amounts of drugs, and I do favor legalization and regulation as a means of "ending" the problem. But I also acknowledge the current illegality. If I am caught speeding, I pay the ticket regardless of the fact that the road I am travelling was designed for 80 mph speeds for cars built 50 years ago. I also resent the implication that no harm is done by the possession of personal use amounts of drugs. I possess personal use amounts of tooth-paste and an entire industry is supported by like minded people such as myself. If the penalties for 80 mph in a 70 mph zone reach incarceration I will, no doubt, modify my behavior and probably fire my legislator. The law may well be an ass, but it is the law.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> don't forget that in England now there is a movement afoot to make pointed knives illegal...


 I know, I'm in the UK now and dealing with some LE officers. Their personal worries have always been aimed at edged weapons vs. projectile and their ballistic vests don't offer much protection for bullets but are designed to stop knives. 
The worries that are fuelling public sentiment here are not pocketknife folders (i.e. BenchMade/CRKT and the like) but what are termed "Stanley knives" - basically carpet cutter disposable blades bought at home improvement stores or the like. Some recent very public programmes have offered immunity for those disposing of knives and target youths. The legislation that has been passed does not prohibit carrying knives (although some have interpreted it as such, for which the police are happy) but does limit the blade length to 3" for folders. And, while legal, the police will detain and question anyone carrying a knife. I carry a clip-on pocketknife, and an officer told me that if I were stopped at night in the street and found carrying I would probably be taken into custody and questioned. My answer of "But officer, I've been carrying a pocketknife for 20 years" would be sufficient but they are counting on the nuisance value to deter people. 
Although the bar scene in the UK is full of raucous and obnoxiously aggressive drunks, particularly around closing time, the level of violence outside of that is pretty low. One acquaintance in London who works in drug enforcement was telling me of a raid they did on a mid-level drug dealer. The only additional weaponry they had (i.e. no firearms) was a large mallet to beat down the door. In the U.S. you'd have a stick of armoured officers in full chem gear armed with full-auto subguns for the same scenario. Very different cultures!

To get back to boats - if I had a flare gun adapter that I had to use in self defence it might unfortunately fall overboard afterwards. No loss, I'd have something to add to the forum thread of offerings to Poseidon.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Zanshin said:


> To get back to boats - if I had a flare gun adapter that I had to use in self defence it might unfortunately fall overboard afterwards. No loss, I'd have something to add to the forum thread of offerings to Poseidon.


I just assumed this was a given in the original post. It's the same sort of logic that would find me buying a pistol or a shotgun in a port in which they were legal, to carry while transiting a known pirate area. The idea is that it gets chucked well before you get to the ostensibly safe destination port. All things being equal, if you fire BACK (and down into a smaller fishing boat/outboard filled with hard men), they are more likely to pick an easier target, pirates not being known for their Protestant work ethics. Hell, I'd chuck grenades if I thought it would keep them off the boat. What I was considering is a non-lethal and at least marginally legal means of self-defence I could permanently keep aboard as a deterrent. I suppose the combination of calling a Mayday, firing shell flares at 'em, attempting to ram them and maybe a nail gun barrage would dissuade them.

Another assumption would be that if I killed or injured a pirate out of sight of land, I'd be kicking his body over the side for either his buddies or the sharks to deal with. It's not the sort of episode I would care to mention to the authorities in the sort of countries that have a pirate element anyway. Captain's prerogative.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Pass the spuds*

Got propane? If not, deodorant or hairspray will work. Ammo is pretty flexible too. Check this out.

http://www.spudtech.com/content.asp?id=29

Disassembed, it could pass for a (large) manual bilge pump.

How about a soda to go with those fries? Video showing 20 oz soda bottles going thru 3/4 inch plywood like it was paper. http://spudtech.com/movies/asf/megalauncher6.mpg


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

Cool, I'd forgotten about ISG's (Improvised Spud Guns)! Attach a little laser pointer and at 50 yards it looks enought like a RPG launcher that most unarmed pirates would probably opt to reciprocate bearings!


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

http://steelturman.typepad.com/thesteeldeal/2007/02/here_come_da_th.html
THE STEEL DEAL: Here come da THE JUDGE.
Is this what you're looking for?


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

I know we opted not to carry that Taurus, thinking a normal revolver loaded with "snake shot" would be a lot better than the Judge. It is almost as much of a flop as the Patriot pistol, which was a handgun made to fire the .223 or 5.56mm NATO round. It looked cool with lots of flame coming out every which way but would malfunction after 1 or maybe 2 rounds. I wouldn't plan on reloading, since rimless cartridges and revolver type extractors have never gotten along well. At least with a revolver you will get all 5 rounds going downrange. Since those countries that ban firearms are Draconian about ammunition as well this one you are going to be left with an expensive flare gun.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Very interesting tread on a very important question !
Anyway, to add a line of thought :
I remember reading a few years ago about a frenchie who rigg a scuba tank to a pvc pipe to throw some molotoff cocktails at incoming pirates !!
I am pretty sure that our american friends with their unparrallel knack with weapons will find us something in this line of thought  
After all most cruising yacht have scuba tanks on board and they are not yet designed as weapons  
So something using scuba tanks compressed air to throw a lethal projectile ??
Up to your drawing board 

Lannig
www.mavourneen-mary.com


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