# Need Opinion: Chart plotter, north up or course up?



## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

I always prefer to have my chart plotter setup in a north up configuration. This is likely due to using paper charts for years and years. The problem is the admiral and any crew we have aboard get really confused by it, especially when we are on a southern course. If I add the radar overlay then they really complain. But every time I try and use a course up configuration I nearly get nauseous. My brain just can't seem to deal with it. I am thinking about just making the change to course up and learn to start dealing with it. 

What are your opinions out there?

Thanks!


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## pgiorda (Nov 16, 2009)

I prefer course up view. This keeps me from having to think when I am trying to relax and have a good time. If there are no shoals to the top of the chart then I am safe and happy.


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## SecondWindNC (Dec 29, 2008)

I prefer north up; I keep my bearings easier that way. But if your crew prefers the other way, is it that hard to change it for whoever is at the helm?


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

I run the chartplotter north up (paper chart user) and radar head up (conventional).

I will use them both head up, perhaps with an overlay) when I am teaching folks how to read radar.

The jumpiness of the course plotter on the course mode is distracting to me.

My netbook charts are always north up as they are raster.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

kellysails said:


> I always prefer to have my chart plotter setup in a north up configuration. This is likely due to using paper charts for years and years. The problem is the admiral and any crew we have aboard get really confused by it, especially when we are on a southern course. If I add the radar overlay then they really complain. But every time I try and use a course up configuration I nearly get nauseous. My brain just can't seem to deal with it. I am thinking about just making the change to course up and learn to start dealing with it.
> 
> What are your opinions out there?
> 
> Thanks!


I have also grown up with paper charts navigating with the north up.

But on the chart plotter I prefer using *Heading up* for several reasons.

I sometimes use split screen with radar and chart side by side, for me it feels more natural to have the radar heading up. 
With heading up it's easy to offset the boat to the lower part of the screen so I can see more of the chart ahead of me.
I feel heading up works better on the small screen.
On my plotter Heading up is not the same as course up..
Heading up refers to my compass heading (rate gyro)
Course up refers to the way point if set.

AFAIK aircraft pilots navigate on paper chart heading up.

An former college of mine was commander on a FPB squadron in the Norwegian Navy - he did learn to navigate on paper charts (North up)
When he started training for his pilot license - his instructor could not understand why he did his navigation North up instead of turning the chart..


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Head up. 

Many times I like to advance the CP forward to anticipate what lays directly ahead of me and have it set in that configuration as the boat advances forward. 

It is especially useful when traveling or plotting or keeping a course to a dedicated spot or say an inlet in seeing what is exactly in your way depth wise. The boat advances though the CP just like it does when I have the chart laid out on the nav station. 

I actually turn the paper chart in the direction I am going so the peripheral landmarks are in the same position on the chart as they are when viewing in the cockpit when looking outside of the boat . IE if the rocks are on my starboard by sight, they are on my starboard by CP and also by chart. Its far less confusing when teaching someone also.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

I think heading is the direction the boat is pointing and course is the actual path the boat is taking. This takes into account set/run effects of the current/wind.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

'Course Up' is for 'drivers' of Sea Rays, without a paper chart in sight...

Anyone who can't figure out North Up, shouldn't be at the helm to begin with... (grin)

All bets are off, however, aboard boats without paper charts, then one may as well let domestic tranquility rule the day..

Jack's right, in anything other than flat calm water, the continuous 're-drawing' of the chart due to the boat's movement is very distracting, and can be a real impediment to safe navigation...

Seriously, a paper chart should always be the 'Go To' point of reference/confirmation, in any moment of doubt, or possible confusion... Having the plotter set to a different mode will likely only add to any confusion, and I have little doubt such a discrepancy has led to many a navigational mishap...

Hey, I'm hoplessly Old School, what else would you expect? (grin)


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Interesting that people say they go north up because of paper charts. From Scouts to university in geography I always oriented the map/chart to the course I wanted to follow rather than to north. Heck the m/c has true north at the top,not even magnetic. 

On the boats generally have course up except in tight corners where I want the land features to stay in one place even I'd the course is changing frequently.


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## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

Heads up for us. Same reasons mentioned by others.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> Interesting that people say they go north up because of paper charts. From Scouts to university in geography I always oriented the map/chart to the course I wanted to follow rather than to north. Heck the m/c has true north at the top,not even magnetic.
> 
> On the boats generally have course up except in tight corners where I want the land features to stay in one place even I'd the course is changing frequently.


Exactly! After a few years in the military and doing a fair amount of land nav the "map" was always oriented to course up. Then the transition to boating the RYA beat into my head that "charts" need to be oriented North up. Now I have a new chart plotter that gives me the option and with a mixed experienced crew.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

North up. I find it easier to follow.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

kellysails said:


> I think heading is the direction the boat is pointing and course is the actual path the boat is taking. This takes into account set/run effects of the current/wind.


Different vendors might have different definitions..
This is from the manual of my Furuno NN3D MFD8


> *Description of orientation modes*
> 
> *Head-up:* Displays the chart with the current compass heading of your vessel at the top of the screen. The heading data from a compass is required. When the heading changes, the boat icon remains fixed, and the chart picture rotates according to heading.
> 
> ...


I might be wrong - but the "If you select a new course" statement above indicate that they are talking about "selecting course as selecting new way point" 
I switch between North up and heading up depending on what I'm doing.
For inshore navigation I prefer HU, for orienting and planning I switch to NU.

I know the difference between COG and heading.
My plotter also have a heading line and a COG/SOG predictor (that is independent of the orientation mode.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

North up. it is a chart plotter, not a TomTom, so it should be chart oriented as an honest- to-neptune paper chart is oriented. Orienting to course risks spatial disorientation as your compass (you still use a compass, right?) and chart differentiate wildly, especially after dark.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

bljones said:


> North up. it is a chart plotter, not a TomTom, so it should be chart oriented as an honest- to-neptune paper chart is oriented. Orienting to course risks spatial disorientation as your compass (you still use a compass, right?) and chart differentiate wildly, especially after dark.


I'm not sure that I understand your example. I don't turn my paper chart so that it's always oriented north even when my boat is not. I must be missing something.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Charts are north oriented., ie north is top of page.
Nav stations are designed to fit charts with north up orientation.
ergo, all plotting is done with north up.
looking down on the chart laid out on the nav with the course marked (you do use a paper chart back up, right?), then looking at the plotter, whihc is course oriented will cause a momentary unnecessary spatial disorientation.


Which is compounded by boat manufacturers insisting on installing nav stations whihc face the stern, not the bow.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

North up in relation to me. Got it.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

True the paper chart is printed with orientation to the north. That makes sense though because that is the only thing that is a standardization to. It would not be possible to print charts in a head up orientation. That alone is not reason to create everything north on the boat. In addition charts can be rotated and moved.

Our nav station faces forward, the chart table is large enough to rotate the chart 360 degrees. If my bow is facing E and I intend on traveling that way I orient my paper chart that way at the nav station as well as in the cockpit.

If my bow is facing E and there are rocks in front of me visually, I don't want my paper chart facing north so they are 90 degrees to the right of me when I look at it, I want to rotate the chart so they are ahead of me. When I glance down at the chart and there is a river to the left, and I look up the river is to the left. No room for error or need for computation. That's why I have the CP in a head up orientation.

While I can make that shift if I can keep things in a north orientation many newer people or inexperienced cannot easily I have found. They need to confirm visually what they have looked down at on a chart and then look up again to get their bearings..

However all this said, there is no ultimate *CORRECT* way to do this. You should do whatever makes you comfortable as well as so the rest of your crew can understand also if necessary.

Makes no difference what orientation you keep, as long as you can read your position safely


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

> Makes no difference what orientation you keep, as long as you can read your position safely


Yes, agreed


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

All sorts of interesting opinions here, thanks! It's a sailnet trademark above all else. 

I may give course up another try on my plotter that sits in front of the wheel in the cockpit. I can see that in rough weather it could be quite disconcerting though.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Course up can be confusing as others have said. +1 for North up.


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## AKA44 (Nov 11, 2011)

Trip planning with a chart at the nav station - 'north up', so I can read all the fine print.

Traveling with the chart plotter - 'course up' so there's no confusion about what's where.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Try putting in a general destination WP and using track up.
We use all three, depending on circumstances, but use the track up for inter-island sailing to show cross track error and it stabilizes the screen.
Coming into a harbor or bay on a fairly steady heading, I'll switch to course up, and going north or at anchor (for the anchor drag alarm) north up works. With the radar overlay, I think we're all stuck w/ north up?
Another alternative I've tried, though I didn't like it, was to dampen the update time, thereby slowing the movement on the screen.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

AKA44 said:


> Trip planning with a chart at the nav station - 'north up', so I can read all the fine print.
> 
> Traveling with the chart plotter - 'course up' so there's no confusion about what's where.


I like this approach. While I have no issues steering with a north up display I actually do less than 10% of the steering. I use paper charts for planning then add waypoints on the plotter for the helmsmen to guide to. When I overlay AIS data and radar to the chart it just makes a lot more sense to others who may not be huge boaters. Most of the time my nose is in the chart book in the cockpit verifying our course.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> True the paper chart is printed with orientation to the north. That makes sense though because that is the only thing that is a standardization to. It would not be possible to print charts in a head up orientation. That alone is not reason to create everything north on the boat. In addition charts can be rotated and moved.
> 
> Our nav station faces forward, the chart table is large enough to rotate the chart 360 degrees. If my bow is facing E and I intend on traveling that way I orient my paper chart that way at the nav station as well as in the cockpit.
> 
> ...


Here is Danish chart 1213, oriented as you would have it if sailing south along one of the most intricate coastlines in the world, the Vestkyst of Greenland...










The index name of this chart is as follows:

* Qeqertarsuatsiaat - Kangerluarsoruseq (Fiskenæsset - Kangerluarsoruseq)*

All I can say, is - if you can read that chart upside down, you are a FAR better man than I... (grin)



chef2sail said:


> While I can make that shift if I can keep things in a north orientation many newer people or inexperienced cannot easily I have found. *They need to confirm visually what they have looked down at on a chart and then look up again to get their bearings.. *


Funny, but that last bit seems like a GOOD practice, to me... Many of the replies in this thread appear to place more importance on the ability to simply _use a chartplotter_, than to actually _read a chart_ and interpret your position on it... I recently cited an example from John Harries, a collision that resulted from the initial reaction of a helmsman to look at his chartplotter, instead of actually looking outside the boat in order to "get his bearings"...

You're right, there is no absolutely 'correct' way to do this, whatever works best for you... However, when anyone sails with me, they will do so according to MY preferences, and the logic of selecting the orientation of a chartplotter to best suit the LEAST experienced or capable person aboard is somewhat lost on me... (grin)


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> However, when anyone sails with me, they will do so according to MY preferences


And they better damn well like or it's off with their head


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## WinterRiver (Oct 20, 2006)

I go with a combination. On the left, I keep a wide view N-up to give me a sense of where I am in the world. On the right I keep a close view course-up to show what's in the immediate vicinity. The view on the right is typically a bit more complicated than this.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

I'm also in the 'north up' crowd. It would confuse me if my compass was showing me on a 180° heading and the chartplotter showed me heading toward the top of the electronic map. True that you have to think about what is to port and to starboard when travelling South, but I need the mental gymnastics to keep the cobwebs outa my head.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> Here is Danish chart 1213, oriented as you would have it if sailing south along one of the most intricate coastlines in the world, the Vestkyst of Greenland...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn Jon we agree twice today.... wait...Id better change my mid


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

WinterRiver said:


> I go with a combination. On the left, I keep a wide view N-up to give me a sense of where I am in the world. On the right I keep a close view course-up to show what's in the immediate vicinity. The view on the right is typically a bit more complicated than this.


I like that Idea ( I have a Cw95 ) and can split that screen too. Do you every overlay your radar? On which one?( I am assuming head up)


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Thanks for the post, Kellysails. I've always wondered what others prefer, and why. Great Post!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

kellysails said:


> And they better damn well like or it's off with their head


LOL! Hey, trust me, I feel your pain...

Over the years, I've had the honor of escorting an ICW Virgin or two down the East coast and ICW for her first time... Many of these trips were way before GPS or plotters, and my powers of reasoning and explanation were stretched to the limit, attempting to dissuade them from using the ICW strip charts like an old AAA Trip-Tik, and orienting them upside-down, to better _"See where we're going..."_ Reason generally prevailed, and I let them have it their way... (grin)

One thing bothers me about the preference for "switching" back and forth between modes that I'm hearing from many in this thread, however... I say, _Pick one mode for planning AND piloting, and STICK WITH IT._ Anything else is a very poor practice, in my estimation... One of the greatest challenges any sailor is likely to face in terms of navigation, is minimizing the potential for error due to FATIGUE... Seems to be really asking for trouble, to inject this sort of variation and needless complexity into one's practice of navigation, when mistakes can so easily be made at the end of a difficult passage, or whatever...

So much of sailing safely is about the effort to maintain a comfortable and familiar _ROUTINE_, and this switching back and forth between different modes of navigation makes me nervous, and seems a recipe for disaster when one is under stress, or suffering from exhaustion...


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

One more vote for north up when planning, course up when underway. And I'm an old guy...started with paper charts only and compass, then went through the loran phase, then the GPS with just numbers, then chart plotters and separate radar, then integrated systems. Yea, walked to school both ways in the snow without boots too.

If you have vector charts, the course up label's turn right side up. If you have a good radar overlay, everything is on one neat picture, and I find the latest navigation gear from the big vendors tends to do a course up display that is smooth even in rough conditions. You need good heading information for this to work right (or your radar and chart overlay won't line up).

All that said, we keep the paper chart open on the nav table and keep a position log on long passages, for when everything breaks onboard and the satellites fall from the sky during the zombie apocalypse We can still plot, DR, etc., just incase.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Perhaps it's my ground-pounder background, but I prefer course up. Like Kelly mentioned, that's standard for navigating with topo maps and that's how I did it for 20+ years in the Army. Aviators also tend to use course up -- especially those who are moving fast and are at risk of hitting massive, immovable objects (like mountains.) 

I do navigate with the plotter "north up" on occasion, and don't find it difficult but always seem to migrate back to "course up." 

I guess it's kind of like the debate over Hellman's or Miracle Whip -- no right answer, just personal preference. (And yes, I'm a Miracle Whip guy )


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## WinterRiver (Oct 20, 2006)

chef2sail said:


> I like that Idea ( I have a Cw95 ) and can split that screen too. Do you every overlay your radar? On which one?( I am assuming head up)


Our radar is ancient and at the nav station. Eventually we'll upgrade and integrate. Until then, navigation in the fog requires two people.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

electronics (raymarine) have course up, heads up, and north up. At nav station have north up to match paper. Under dodger and at helm have head up to match radar. Agree with using split screen when running radar. Easier to see targets and match contour of land masses when making landfall. My 2 cents. 

p.s.- did this for crew. seems to make for less confusion. until I know crew has basics of chapman's don't even let them sit at the nav station or put a pencil on my charts. So north no issue there but to be honest flip back and forth N up/head up even at nav station as auto sych function may screw up if radar functioning.


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## canopus (Jul 9, 2013)

Course Up. Chart up. Keeps me on track


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Not only do I have chart and plotter North up, my car navigation system has to be North up as well. I have tried using course up but with every glance at the plotter or nav system my eyes first look for the North cursor. That's a step that's not needed with North up.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Guess it boils down to cognitive dissonance. Some folks brains are over learned in heads up or north up so get viscerally upset to see it otherwise. Whatever floats your boat. Problem is when you have crew hell bent on doing it their way or no way. Think it polite to do the way the captain/owner stipulates and suck it up. He/she will be the one taking the blame if you hit a hard edge.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

To take a different view on this. At one point I was considering a dissertation on how the human brain organizes spatial data, a sort of how does one's mental maps come into being. I was born and grew up on the north side of Lake Ontario. My mind organized location in relation to where the lake was, a sort of south-focussed view of things. When I went to the other side of the lake I was thrown off a bit because now the lake was to the north. When I first cruised in the Southern Hemisphere I wondered if it would be at all disorientating and it wasn't at all. I thought about it a lot (lots of time on a passage to think heavy thoughts) and came to realize that my spatial sense is not organized around absolute direction eg north, but on the relative position of things, the lake is there or South America is there while the Galapagos is there. Hence my preference for having the plotter set to course up. I remember crossing the Indian Ocean and zooming out on the plotter and seeing in what direction I would have to go to India, Australia, Madagascar. From the discussion here it seems that many people work on a north is there basis. For me I don't care where north is unless I am going that way.

For the north at the top crowd, do you have true or magnetic there?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

It is truly amazing the subjects that pop up isn't it ? 

I'm north up as a consequence of paper and , well, it just seems logical. Then again coming from my admittedly somewhat addled brain that may not be an endorsement.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> For the north at the top crowd, do you have true or magnetic there?


LOL! I'll go with True, to match the way my papyrus charts are printed...

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how someone on a passage from Newport to Bermuda, for example, manages to plot their position (or that of the Gulf Stream, for that matter) every few hours, or with each change of the watch, on an upside-down copy of Chart 13003... (grin)










Good points you make about our various individual means of spatial orientation, we're all 'wired' somewhat differently, no question... Still, I tend to generally associate Heads-up with _Powerboating_, and North-Up with _Sailing..._

The reason, of course, is the vital importance to most sailors of *Wind Direction* in planning, and navigation... Again, perhaps it's just me, but it is SO much easier to visualize wind direction relative to the course to be sailed on a simple North-up display, than it is to go through the mental gymnastics required to calculate or estimate wind direction on what might be a constantly shifting heads-up orientation...

Yet, the ever-increasing popularity of this sort of Plug-n-Play Piloting - waypoint to waypoint, routes created and interfaced with an autopilot keeping you on the straight and narrow 'Highway' - seems to me but one more contributing factor to many of us Motoring More, and Sailing Less... (grin)


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## chamonix (Jun 25, 2010)

I started navigating on land with the army as well. I prefer North up when navigating in the boat however, find it easier for some reason. Have no Idea why.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> LOL! I'll go with True, to match the way my papyrus charts are printed...
> 
> I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how someone on a passage from Newport to Bermuda, for example, manages to plot their position (or that of the Gulf Stream, for that matter) every few hours, or with each change of the watch, on an upside-down copy of Chart 13003... (grin)
> 
> ...


Interesting post by killarny....I think hes on to something. Spacial orientation as well as left and right side brain use. No one uses one to the exclusion of the other, but one is generally more dominant.

Its like the sailors need it all lined up facing north or they cant get it. Linier thinkers. This is the right way beacuse thats because thats the way they learned it. They cant understand the creative thinkers perspective or even get how they can see things from another perspective ( an upside down chart for instance). If they have it properly organized it makes perfect sense. No value judgement here, just people thinking and wired differently

Then there are the sailors I will call the "free thinkers". Less apt to be confined by conventions. Can deal with multiple dimensions or things not lined up without anxiety. They cant understand the linier thinkers and see it as confined thinking. They have no problem reading the chart upside down, sideways, backwards, but feel confined by a straight up and down approach. Again no No value judgement here, just people thinking and wired differently.

Both type of thinkers can read charts perfectly fine and have no issues.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Ironically my introduction to mapping was in Canadian Artillery. As a Technical Assistant Royal Artillery we calculated the angles, etc for the howitzers. We used a north up orientation.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

chef2sail said:


> Linier thinkers...cant understand the creative thinkers perspective or even get how they can see things from another perspective ( an upside down chart for instance)... "free thinkers"...Less apt to be confined by conventions. Can deal with multiple dimensions or things not lined up without anxiety. They cant understand the linier thinkers and see it as confined thinking.


c2s - I don't think that's right. It's not that us linear thinkers can't understand the perspective of creative thinkers/free thinkers. It's that we can't understand why they are have so much trouble figuring out how to do things in the most EFFICIENT way. Or is that the RIGHT way?

I spent a lot of time earlier in my life teaching and being responsible for navigation of expensive boats and if called on to be able to shoot accurately at other expensive boats. Much of the navigation and targeting was done with our heads below the surface of the water. During my early years in the business we did a lot of our computations with slide rules and thumb rules. Innovations later allowed computers do most of the grunt work for both of those tasks. We found that the use of computers frequently caused loss of spatial orientation. Loss of orientation is very dangerous. Looking for a way to minimize loss of orientation we came up with a simple way to reorient the watch standers...by simply asking frequently for them to "point to North" or "point at the target." Soon the computer operators began to ask themselves these questions and they seldom lost their orientation afterwards.

It's not so much how you fold the chart or lay it down on the table (or on the screen) but whether the relationship between the geometry on the chart and the geography of your surroundings is revealed in your "mind's eye."


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> Its like the sailors need it all lined up facing north or they cant get it. Linier thinkers. This is the right way beacuse thats because thats the way they learned it. They cant understand the creative thinkers perspective or even get how they can see things from another perspective ( an upside down chart for instance). If they have it properly organized it makes perfect sense. No value judgement here, just people thinking and wired differently
> 
> Then there are the sailors I will call the "free thinkers". Less apt to be confined by conventions. Can deal with multiple dimensions or things not lined up without anxiety. They cant understand the linier thinkers and see it as confined thinking. They have no problem reading the chart upside down, sideways, backwards, but feel confined by a straight up and down approach. Again no No value judgement here, just people thinking and wired differently.
> 
> Both type of thinkers can read charts perfectly fine and have no issues.


Well, there's little doubt that with the advent of GPS, map-reading skills among the general public are in a precipitous decline...

So, would all those drivers out there riding around in Heads-Up Land who might be totally lost without their GPS, then be classified as "linear", or "creative" thinkers? (grin)



> The brain has a specialized region just for navigating the spatial environment. This structure is called the hippocampus, also known as the map reader of the brain. The hippocampus helps individuals determine where they are, how they got to that particular place, and how to navigate to the next destination. Reading maps and developing navigational skills can affect the brain in beneficial ways. In fact, using orientation and navigational skills often can actually cause the hippocampus and the brain to grow, forming more neural pathways as the number of mental maps increase.
> 
> A study by scientists at University College in London found that grey matter in the brains of taxi drivers grew and adapted to help them store detailed mental maps of the city. The drivers underwent MRI scans, and those scans showed that the taxi drivers have larger hippocampi when compared to other people. In addition, the scientists found that the more time the drivers spent on the job, the more the hippocampus changes structurally to accommodate the large amount of navigational experience. Drivers who spent more than forty years in a taxi had more developed hippocampi than those just starting out. The study shows that experience with the spatial environment and navigation can have a direct influence on the brain itself.
> 
> ...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, there's little doubt that with the advent of GPS, map-reading skills among the general public are in a precipitous decline...
> 
> So, would all those drivers out there riding around in Heads-Up Land who might be totally lost without their GPS, then be classified as "linear", or "creative" thinkers? (grin)


This says the man with the computer, I pad, tablet or smart phone

That's the problem Jon, they are both and they are neither, just like the dinosaurs who are afraid to depend on a GPS device who think some day a EMP will wipe out all the satellites all at once.

Why is it so important to have map reading skills Jon, they are becoming obsolete except for the water where its a needed skill still? It isn't a necessary skill on land anymore for most people. It doesn't mean they are lost either. Time marches on as does the world. People don't forage for food anymore. It allows them do do things like deliver boats, become rocket scientists, CHefs, teachers, accountants. Time marches on.

March with it or get left behind and perish with he dinosours.  grin


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

And then, if you're doing the ICW using those full-size Maptech chart books (Regions 6 and 7, if you're shopping for them) this whole discussion falls apart, because those chart books just present the segments of the NOAA charts that show the ICW ... course up. So to have your chartplotter match your paper charts you'd set it ... course up. Wind direction? Doesn't matter, you go where the daymarks tell you there's water...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

One reason I tend to like the N up orientation is because my Garmin unit sometimes rotates the view around too much if in track-up mode. When figuring out the heading while maneuvering, say, through a set of buoys, it can rotate the screen around. With North-up this does not happen. It also doesn't happen on the paper chart.

I can think of no task more useless and boring than using the "highway" screen on a GPS. What a great challenge to squint at a freakin' digital screen to stay on the "highway" while ignoring the real world around you.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

I use both and don't have a problem flipping between them. Never gave it a second thought really. 

My choice of screen orientation generally depends on where I am sailing and sometimes the plotter I am using. Open ocean is almost always North Up but coastal Maine is often Course Up but can often be North Up too depending upon where on the coast we are. My wife hates North Up but she never learned on paper before electronic. She learned electronic and paper at the same time. 

I also don't have an issue which way my paper chart lies... Sometimes I use it upside down because my wife is looking at it too or some times sideways, which ever way it fits.... My brain does not seem to have a problem with the "spatial" issues as I guess I tend to re-draw it in my brain in the direction I need to see it in.... 

When I was a kid, and learning plotting/DR from my grandfather and father, we never had the luxury of a proper nav desk that would fit a chart so they were often folded and looked at from all directions. Plotting on the paper was always done based on NU but was not always drawn with the paper facing NU... I sailed and navigated thousands of hours in the fog, before electronics, without always having my chart oriented North Up, so I guess I am the odd man out? Perhaps it was better that I never got used to having to have my chart oriented only North Up because now I am not constrained to one or the other orientation...???


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

You can configure it any way you like. The only wrong answer is from those that insist they are right or belittle those that choose differently.

I was also taught to navigate in the military. If you at sitting at a desk or fixed position, often in a room barking orders to those getting the job done, north is up. If you are on the move, you put your compass on the map and keep north on the map pointing north, ie it is always oriented to the surrounding terrain. 

It's not a question of whether you can do the spacial orientation, it's the bandwidth you are wasting on it, which could be used to move, shoot and communicate.

Personally, I set the aircraft display to course up as well, although, there was no such thing when I started flying.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

wingNwing said:


> And then, if you're doing the ICW using those full-size Maptech chart books (Regions 6 and 7, if you're shopping for them) this whole discussion falls apart, because those chart books just present the segments of the NOAA charts that show the ICW ... course up. So to have your chartplotter match your paper charts you'd set it ... course up. Wind direction? Doesn't matter, you go where the daymarks tell you there's water...


I figure it's just a matter of time before there are 2 separate versions of ICW chartbooks published - one for 'Southbound', with all charts printed in 'South-Up' mode, and one for 'Northbound', oriented to NU... If I were a guy like John Kettlewell, I'd give that serious consideration, could be a hot seller... (grin)










I've always found it interesting how few people - when transiting sections of the ICW that run due E & W, such as the Alligator-Pungo Canal - will still speak on the VHF in terms of being either 'south' or 'north-bound'... They're technically correct, of course, in terms of the general direction of their travel on the ICW, but seems to illustrate how unaware most typically are as to their actual heading at any given time... Commercial/professional captains (their plotters set to North-up, no doubt (grin)) seem to be the only ones who are more likely to refer to their actual direction of travel on the Ditch...

Seems a minor point, I know, but it can easily result in some confusion between sailors at certain points... Take the Neuse River, for example... A snowbird heading down the ICW might call a local boat sailing off Oriental, identifying themselves as 'Southbound', when in fact they may be much closer to being 'westbound'... Fog is not unheard of in that area, and such confusion between two boats with their operators peering into their radar screens could turn out to be a very costly mistake, with both of them mistakenly under the impression that one of them is on a very different heading than they are in reality...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> ........ Commercial captains seem ti be the only ones who are more likely to refer to their actual direction of travel on the Ditch.....


Also a pet peeve of mine. I find many will only use N, S, E or W, when there is a huge difference between east and northeast, for example.

Had a buddy send me a text that said he was 10 miles north of Cuttyhunk, which wold have put him about 3 miles inland on Mass. He was actually 10 miles east in Vineyard Sound.

I hear many people refer to the New England coast as simply north and south, like Maine is north and NYC is south and the coast never varies.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Hmmm, wonder which mode ALDEBARAN's plotter was in?










Sad, yet another loss that might have been avoided, _IF ONLY the chartplotter had been zoomed to the proper scale_, for a harbor entrance he had been transiting for decades...

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Fails to integrate rt.parietal lobe functions and pathways from foccular nodular cerebellar cortical pathways. For a sailor sleeping in a quarter berth in the dark in a significant confused sea then waking his orientation is not set. Because of this first thing I do is put my head out of the companion way and scan the horizon. Allows my proprioception system to get working.then look at the chart.then look at the screen. Otherwise all screwed up regardless north or heads up.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Damn, I think Jon called me a stink potter and I only have 58 hp in a 40,000 on boat.

Seriously, a very good discussion.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

LOL @ Jon Eisberg! (Two sets of chart books)

Guilty, though; I usually describe us to ICW bridgetenders as "southbound sailing vessel Cinderella" and it seems to me unambiguous even if the bridge spans an E-W section. But then, bridges are fixed items. If I'm hailing a tug I give position relative to them: "tan sailboat off your port bow" or the equivalent.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> Damn, I think Jon called me a stink potter and I only have 58 hp in a 40,000 on boat.
> 
> Seriously, a very good discussion.


LOL! Hey, no offense intended...

I'd be willing to bet I have WAY more time on stinkpots than most anyone else around here, after all... (grin)


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

I've noticed that this is very much a generational thing. There are exceptions, of course, but most people I've met who learned to navigate before GPS prefer north up and those who learned to navigate post GPS (I'm not sure that really counts as learning to navigate.) prefer heads up.

Being old enough to remember running miles of fog with the most complex device on my boat being my wind up Timex watch, I find there is a lot less mental math involved in north up. The steadier display is also a plus.


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

JonEisberg said:


> I've always found it interesting how few people - when transiting sections of the ICW that run due E & W, such as the Alligator-Pungo Canal - will still speak on the VHF in terms of being either 'south' or 'north-bound'...


This could be a subject and a thread in itself. I'm one of those who believe that proper usage on the ICW is always "North / South bound" since it is quite clear which direction you are heading.

On a side river or route where the two ends are clearly east and west of each other, I would say "East / West" even if there were a bridge in a short north / south running portion.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> This says the man with the computer, I pad, tablet or smart phone
> 
> That's the problem Jon, they are both and they are neither, just like the dinosaurs who are afraid to depend on a GPS device who think some day a EMP will wipe out all the satellites all at once.


Well, for the record, I will note that I only possess one of those 4 toys you mention, not sure how that has any relevance to the points I've been trying to make... And, for the umpteenth time, may I remind you that I, too, rely on GPS as my primary navigational tool, just like most everyone else... (grin)



chef2sail said:


> Why is it so important to have map reading skills Jon, they are becoming obsolete except for the water where its a needed skill still? It isn't a necessary skill on land anymore for most people.


So, what happens when one of those Dirt Dwellers with minimal map-reading skills buys a Plastic Fantastic 40 for his first boat? Ah, right - as Roger points out, he learns to use a chartplotter... Which is most often a far cry from actually learning how to _navigate_...



chef2sail said:


> It isn't a necessary skill on land anymore for most people. It doesn't mean they are lost either.


In the weeks after Hurricane Sandy, one of my neighbors had his FEMA inspection postponed, due to the fact that the inspector's smart phone died, and he had no means of finding his way to our neighborhood... I had to drive to a shopping mall to meet with my inspector, because her GPS was inexplicably routing her to my address over a bridge that had been closed, and there was no other way she could be 'talked into' my house... Which, from the parking lot she was in, would have involved making ONE left turn at the 3rd traffic light she would have encountered... Though she had a map of the area, she candidly admitted it was of no use to her...

Yeah, ain't Map-Reading Obsolescence wonderful?



chef2sail said:


> Time marches on as does the world. People don't forage for food anymore. It allows them do do things like deliver boats, become rocket scientists, CHefs, teachers, accountants. Time marches on.
> 
> March with it or get left behind and perish with he dinosours.  grin


Sometimes, I wonder if I'm the only person around here who's ever had one of those Magic Black Boxes aboard a boat go dark... (grin)

Again, to the aftermath of Sandy... We were without power here for 20 days... For the first time, it truly hit me how dependent many people have become upon their smart phones and such... Whenever I'd make a stop at McDonald's to poach some WiFi, here would be lines around the power outlets, people waiting to re-charge their devices, probably so they could figure out how to get to where they're going next... (grin)

So, disregard the mention in the article I cited, of the pleas from authorities in Scotland for hikers to familiarize themselves with other means of finding their way back home, as a result of so many needless rescues they're having to make... My nephew is a Ski Patroller out at Mammoth Mountain, and rarely does a single week go by without them being called to find some clown who ventured Out of Bounds somewhere on the mountain, because his smart phone went dead, and he lacked the ability to interpret something as simple as a freakin' trail map... Or, the countless other examples offered up every day, and certainly over the VHF any weekend out on the water...

Sorry, but _they_ are the sort of people, lacking those sort of antiquated, "obsolete" skills, who might find themselves "left behind" when TSHTF, but "time marches on"... (grin)


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Roger Long said:


> I've noticed that this is very much a generational thing. There are exceptions, of course, but most people I've met who learned to navigate before GPS prefer north up and those who learned to navigate post GPS (I'm not sure that really counts as learning to navigate.) prefer heads up.
> 
> Being old enough to remember running miles of fog with the most complex device on my boat being my wind up Timex watch, I find there is a lot less mental math involved in north up. The steadier display is also a plus.


Back to my posting about different brain wiring. I am an oldster and have only used electronic NAV for five years or so and used paper charts exclusively for more than 30 years. I use both orientations but mainly course up.


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## cutterdad (Apr 10, 2013)

I need north up to get oriented and plot a course on a paper chart.
Once oriented if I am looking at the course and say have the map or cp in Fremont of me I like course up to compare with what I see in the real world in front of me.

Sort of like my opinion.
Free advice is seldom worth the price.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I agree with Jon re map reading skills. Ok so we have backups that do not rely on boat power but had we been sailing when our girl was clobbered by the lightning earlier this year we would have been starring at a blank screen. In one case our nav station plotter survived the strike but its aerial didn't. 

Now I am well into the school of "paper as a backup" but really, if anyone going sailing or trekking does so without the ability to read a map then man oh man that soul is looking a tadge dim. Presumably also, anyone who goes out using IPhone for navigation probably doesn't even carry a pocket compass.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

I love these posts where people are categorized as inferior sailors/navigators just beacuse their mind does not work the same way as yours...  uke



JonEisberg said:


> 'Course Up' is for 'drivers' of Sea Rays, without a paper chart in sight...
> 
> Anyone who can't figure out North Up, shouldn't be at the helm to begin with... (grin)
> 
> ...


First I carry paper charts as a backup togheter with all kinds of old school navigation equipmemt and I know how to use it.

I think "Nintendo navigators" are a danger to both themselves and others.
A "Nintendo navigator" is one the believe that the screen is the truth not what he/she can see/observe (marks, lights, light sectors, depths, compass ++) around the boat.

Fixed marks and fixed transits usually stay put so if the GPS is showing differently, the GPS is probably wrong.
(even floating marks tend to stay put)

So when I once i a while "see" that I'm sitting on top of a mark and my visual tell's me other ways.. 

My "home" waters is the Skagarak / Kattegat area where we do lots of inshore navigation (under sail) in areas where we have lots of rocks and islands.
Sailors from other places feel this a bit intimidating..

I believe that old school piloting (Coastal navigation, as by reference to buoys and soundings) still is an important art.

But used correctly a chart plotter can improve Coastal navigation. When short or single handed you don't have time to go up a down to the chart table.

Showing the correct map are on the plotter is handy and it's more resilient to water (and more handy) than a paper chart.

It's easy to measure distance and bearing to your next mark on the plotter to help locating it early.

Having course up I can even estimate the bearing to next mark at a glance - often enough data to spot it using the binoculars.

With paper charts i do my chart work north up because it is easier to

Plot a position from GPS
Plot a position line from one or more bearings
Reading the LAT/LONG of a waypoint and other objects
It's easy to plan/plot a great circle route using the data I calculate using my calculator (Oh good forbid, must use a slide rule)

When under way may chart plotter is oriented heading up.

I have no problem switching from paper to plotter and back even with different orientation
I don't plot on the chart plotter the same way I do on paper, waypoints are input using input box or pointing in the chart.
I don't use any kind of old type ruler on the screen - I move the cursor and get LAT/LONG/bearing and dist at a glance.
I don't feel that "the continuous 're-drawing' of the chart" is any problem (maybe there are better plotters around?)
I often put the boat icon at the lower part of the screen, this way I can utilize the "scree estate" better (usually more interested in what is ahead). Must admit that i haven't tried to offset the boat in North up.

You know that paper chart *also* can have errors in them?









When I sail in unknown waters with unknown charts I cross reference a lot. If I'm feel that the electronic charts are accurate the paper charts is more of a backup.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

knuterikt said:


> I love these posts where people are categorized as inferior sailors/navigators just beacuse their mind does not work the same way as yours...  uke





> Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> 'Course Up' is for 'drivers' of Sea Rays, without a paper chart in sight...
> 
> Anyone who can't figure out North Up, shouldn't be at the helm to begin with... (grin)


My apologies, but perhaps you are taking that first comment a bit too literally, or seriously... Sure, I can be pretty flip with my comments, and in truth probably don't apply a (grin) nearly as often as I probably should... (grin)

However, you'll note that I did not say that _anyone who has a PREFERENCE for North-Up shouldn't be at the helm_, but rather _anyone WHO CAN'T FIGURE OUT North-Up_ shouldn't be there...

I'll stand by that distinction... Aboard my boat, or any boat I'm running, anyone not comfortable or confident in their ability to interpret a chart or plotter in a North Up orientation, well... I won't be trusting them to take the helm unsupervised, or in anything other than the most benign of circumstances, they'll just be along for the ride... Nor, will I be going below for a nap... (grin)



tdw said:


> I agree with Jon re map reading skills. Ok so we have backups that do not rely on boat power but had we been sailing when our girl was clobbered by the lightning earlier this year we would have been starring at a blank screen. In one case our nav station plotter survived the strike but its aerial didn't.
> 
> Now I am well into the school of "paper as a backup" but really, if anyone going sailing or trekking does so without the ability to read a map then man oh man that soul is looking a tadge dim. Presumably also, anyone who goes out using IPhone for navigation probably doesn't even carry a pocket compass.


That's one of my primary reasons for arguing in favor of North-Up... If one is forced to resort to navigating on paper alone, unless one possesses the remarkable ability to "just as easily" read every detail, and plot accurately on an upside-down chart under a dim red light at night (grin), the chart staring you in the face in the North-up mode WILL be the 'default setting' you'll be dealing with...

Given the added stress placed upon a navigator suddenly placed in such straits, and the high probability of fatigue and exhaustion eventually coming into play, it seems to me that forcing someone to navigate in a manner that they are heretofore unaccustomed to might only add to the drama of such a scenario, and increase the potential for making a mistake...

Different strokes for different folks, of course, and I truly admire the ability of those who can switch from one orientation to the other, and think nothing of it... Perhaps because I've done as much singlehanding as I have, I'm more than a bit acquainted with true fatigue, and exhaustion, and how easily the stupidest of errors can be made by one as experienced as yours truly... (of course, this could be just me, and others here are immune to such ill effects)

I'll always argue in favor of the KISS principle... Pick one mode of navigating, and stick with it... And, you may as well stick with the one you'll be stuck with, in the event that plotter goes dark... (grin)


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## chamonix (Jun 25, 2010)

The hard wiring of the brain is an interesting theory. At least in my case I think it has more to do with visual clues. Going over land with a topo map there are lots of visual clues that you can use to determine your position so it makes sense to have the map oriented to your line of march. On water there are a lot less visual clues, it's flat and open and the clues are harder to decipher. Its basic course and speed which for me is easier to handle with things North up. I also use a small hand held chartplotter with a small screen, zoomed into about 1 or 2 nautical miles. A larger chart is used for the big picture, and I'm constantly comparing the two. It's a lot easier if both are oriented on the North axis rather than constantly turning the map to match a constantly changing bearing.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, for the record, I will note that I only possess one of those 4 toys you mention, not sure how that has any relevance to the points I've been trying to make... And, for the umpteenth time, may I remind you that I, too, rely on GPS as my primary navigational tool, just like most everyone else... (grin)
> 
> So, what happens when one of those Dirt Dwellers with minimal map-reading skills buys a Plastic Fantastic 40 for his first boat? Ah, right - as Roger points out, he learns to use a chartplotter... Which is most often a far cry from actually learning how to _navigate_...
> 
> ...


Ah yes a good "Chicken Little" demo...the sky is falling...the sky is falling and we all need to go back to our roots, get out the maps, get out the firestarters Why.... lets take it to the nth degree. Lets go back before the wheel....it was the ruinatuion of all of us and it caused cars which caused global warming. ( grin) how far should be go back...to the dinosaurs....the flageliites,,,,,the spark that caused it all....the big bang.

So what if people cant find places without a GPS or a smart phone. Are the satellites still there? Most people cant grow food either, certainly a more fundemental skill than reading a map. Should we all have gardening/ growing experience just in case Armageheddon comes?

We all agree we are dependent on electricity and all the devices run by them, Sandy reminded us of that and not just the cell phone part. It was the lack of electricity.

Its great to take a few examples and look at them from the critical half empty scenario and extrapolate the next issue of the "sky is falling" thread. I prefer to focus on the positive. What a great advance electrontics has been.

Easier to rescue people because of it GPS fixes on EPIRBS, VHF radios we carry etc. AIS to let you know where the big ships are, radar to see in the fog. Satellites to map the land and ocean within 6 inches. Doppler radar to predict and give tornado warnings. Satellites to track hurricanes to warn mariniers. Pactor modems to get weather systems while at sea. SSB to have communicatuion over the horizon. Why are you just fixated on chartplotters. All these advances have made it possible for more safety and yes as you say for more people to feel confindent and possibly overconfident and get in trouble. Every action in nature has an equal and opposite reaction ( Newton) associated with it.

And oh by the way those maps you use, or the mountain rescuer....I bet they were not made and verified by Lewis and Clark, but by some GEOSat satellite 233 miles in space.

While I agree and utilize paper charts as you do, I do not demonize the use of electronics and aids utilizing electronics as a use only by the inexperienced Darth Vadars of the world. I refuse to point to a few isolated publicised incidents, sensationalize and then extrapolate them to mean the "sky is faling", especially when the hard facts show otherwise.

Time does march on....thats a true fact, like death. Technology does with it.

You can pick and chose which electronics to use (I notice you use the demon computer to post) and let the technology help you become a better safer sailor, or you can get left behind. ( grin). Not referring to you Jon...you use GPS of course ( grin).


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> Ah yes a good "Chicken Little" demo...the sky is falling...the sky is falling and we all need to go back to our roots, get out the maps, get out the firestarters Why.... lets take it to the nth degree. Lets go back before the wheel....it was the ruinatuion of all of us and it caused cars which caused global warming. ( grin) how far should be go back...to the dinosaurs....the flageliites,,,,,the spark that caused it all....the big bang.


Congrats, that's about as far as I've ever seen anyone run with such a hysterically absurd analogy regarding the issue of navigation and seamanship, and the possibility that a sailor may someday have to resort to more traditional means to find their way home... (grin)

Again, perhaps it's just me, and I am the only one who ever has - or ever will - experience a total power failure at sea... Or, suffered the consequences of the inherent incompatibility of sophisticated electronic devices with salt water, and had one of those screens go dark...



chef2sail said:


> While I agree and utilize paper charts as you do, I do not demonize the use of electronics and aids utilizing electronics ...


OK, I give up...

How you continue to interpret my views on these subjects as "demonizing electronics" is completely beyond me...


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

I think the real issue with GPS only it that you use it differently when you don't know basic navigation. It's a well known principle in computers that mistakes are more likely to happen when someone is using them to do calculations they wouldn't know how to do by hand.

Good example:

I went up a very narrow river in Passamaquoddy Bay on a rising tide. It was quite an adventure for a sailboat with a keel. I made up all the way up without touching.

Going back, I had deeper water and the GPS track to follow. I struck twice. Why? Going up, I was watching the current pattens in the water, looking at the shore for clues to where the deep water was. Going down, I my attention was more on the GPS.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Roger Long said:


> I think the real issue with GPS only it that you use it differently when you don't know basic navigation. It's a well known principle in computers that mistakes are more likely to happen when someone is using them to do calculations they wouldn't know how to do by hand.
> .


Great point, Roger.

It kind of boils down to having enough basic knowledge to know when what the electronics are telling you don't make sense. If all a kid knows how to do is punch numbers into a pocket calculator, and doesn't actually know multiplication tables, then when he/she makes a fat finger mistake or misplaces a decimal point, they'll have no clue that their total is way off.

All too often we read about people who blindly follow their car nav systems with humorous or tragic results.

Yes, electronics are a great tool, but it should never be the only one in your toolbox.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

With regard to the loss of ships power; I always keep a battery operated handheld on with the active route loaded. ( and plenty of spare batteries) I also like it on because it has a graphing barometer, a compass and other useful information. The related paper chart is always open and notated on the chart table. 

I also like to distinguish between Piloting and Navigation. I'm guessing that 90 + % of the time boaters are piloting their vessels using visual aids. Transiting a river, or the ICW, running along a coast line etc. More important to me than where north is, is how much water is under my keel, where is the next mark, Where is that big ship headed etc. So I find myself using my eyes, a depth sounder ( an electronic device) and binoculars more than anything else. When inland or near coastal I'm probably using course up, as a check against what I'm seeing. @ 5 kn. the screen doesn't move that fast. Either works, I don't seem to have a problem switching. I can see where North up when offshore on a long passage keeps everyone on the same page.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

chef2sail said:


> snip
> 
> You can pick and chose which electronics to use (I notice you use the demon computer to post) and let the technology help you become a better safer sailor, or you can get left behind. ( grin). Not referring to you Jon...you use GPS of course ( grin).


Dave, It seems to me you are being somewhat unfair. JE (irritating grin or no irritating grin) is on record in this very thread as saying his primary nav aid is GPS and as you have yourself noted he seems to be using a computer from time to time. I daresay the old luddite probably has a mobile phone, has updated from oil to electricity for his lights and rumour has it the hamster has gone and replaced by one of them new fangled infernal combustion thingys.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

tdw said:


> Dave, It seems to me you are being somewhat unfair. JE (irritating grin or no irritating grin) is on record in this very thread as saying his primary nav aid is GPS and as you have yourself noted he seems to be using a computer from time to time. I daresay the old luddite probably has a mobile phone, has updated from oil to electricity for his lights and rumour has it the hamster has gone and replaced by one of them new fangled infernal combustion thingys.


Not trying to denigrate JE. I have the utmost respect for him and would jump at the chance to learn from him on a delivery or sail sometime if he'd have me. I'd even keep my charts north, plotter north and turn off my iPad and cell.

We do have differences in opinions, especially when it comes to electronics and the experience of modern sailors, but most of what he posts I agree with.

Sorry if my sarcasm has overshadowed that


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

tdw said:


> Dave, It seems to me you are being somewhat unfair. JE (irritating grin or no irritating grin) is on record in this very thread as saying his primary nav aid is GPS and as you have yourself noted he seems to be using a computer from time to time. I daresay the old luddite probably has a mobile phone, has updated from oil to electricity for his lights and rumour has it the hamster has gone and replaced by one of them new fangled infernal combustion thingys.


Nah, I'm a Luddite, through and through... I rate my Sailomat windvane as the best money I will ever spend on my boat, after all...

Sometimes I wonder how I've managed to fit all this crap tethered to 12V into my little 30-footer, however...

Simrad 32 plotter at nav station
Simrad 44 plotter / 4 KW radar in cockpit
(3) Garmin 48 handheld GPS (one lives in ditch bag)
Furuno NX 300 NAVTEX 
Icom 802 SSB
Pactor III modem
Standard GX 2150 VHF w/ AIS
C.A.R.D. radar detector
Iridium satphone
ACR 406 EPIRB
Raymarine 6002 tillerpilot /w spare control head and (2) spare rams
(2) Standard 406 Handleld VHF, plus one other that lives in ditch bag
Fog-Mate signal horn system

However, I don't use a computer for navigation, nor have an iPad (yet), so that places me light-years behind the masses today... (annoying grin)

Apologies for the (grins), but I starting posting to the old CW forum well before we had Smiley Icons... Old habits die hard with us Luddites, you know...


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## olddog60 (Oct 20, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> You can configure it any way you like. The only wrong answer is from those that insist they are right or belittle those that choose differently.
> 
> I was also taught to navigate in the military. If you at sitting at a desk or fixed position, often in a room barking orders to those getting the job done, north is up. If you are on the move, you put your compass on the map and keep north on the map pointing north, ie it is always oriented to the surrounding terrain.
> 
> ...


I was an Arty guy for 10 years. North up for orentation and course up for travel. Now everything is done by Inertia and GPS. Move shoot and communicate.....guess you were Arty as well.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Simrad 44 plotter / 4 KW radar in cockpit


That explains why you can't use heading up.. The redraw time on the Simrad 44 plotter's are horrible.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

knuterikt said:


> That explains why you can't use heading up.. The redraw time on the Simrad 44 plotter's are horrible.


Well, it's a hell of an improvement over the CR 42 I had previously, that thing redrew at a positively _glacial_ pace... My CP 32 below is extremely slow to redraw, as well... By most people's standards today, both of those units are hopelessly obsolete, and badly in need of replacement - but a dinosaur like me will elect to spend my next couple of boat bucks on a new Code 0, instead...

But, trust me, I've run plenty of boats with plotters that redraw in an instant, that's not the sole reason why my preference is for North-Up...


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## GrummanPilot (Oct 25, 2011)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned what I find is the best thing about COG (course over ground) up.

It lets me easily see how the currents are affecting the vessel. Especially in unfamiliar waters.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

I use heading up when underway and North up when plotting the course before heading out.


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## jfdubu (Jul 18, 2002)

I use course up. The main reason is most of my sailing is around Narragansett bay and RI sound so I'm rarely out of sight of land. Course up gives me the quickest feedback to compare against DR nav. If I were to sail to the great blue yonder I may switch to north up as then maintaining a compass course is more important

John


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

GrummanPilot said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned what I find is the best thing about COG (course over ground) up.
> 
> It lets me easily see how the currents are affecting the vessel. Especially in unfamiliar waters.


Hmmm, it might be easier for you to see it that way, but I doubt there are many plotters out there than can't perform set/drift calculations in a North Up mode, as well...


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, it might be easier for you to see it that way, but I doubt there are many plotters out there than can't perform set/drift calculations in a North Up mode, as well...


Yup, my Simrad NSS does a great job with set/drift while with a north up config. I am amazed how accurate it is.


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## greg black (Jul 14, 2013)

Head up for sure. Your mind my get tricked when going through dangerous channel w/ multi marks as I did going through Woods Hole, Ma. and going aground  It was bad but no damage.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

Well after several attempts to run course up on my chart plotter, I give up. It just does not work for me. The Admiral now also prefers north up. Having the chart pivot around the boat on the display drives me crazy. Newbies on the boat will just need to get used to it. I guess I have had too many years in using paper charts, something about teaching old dogs new tricks. 

It was an interesting discussion, thanks for everyone's input.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

kellysails said:


> Well after several attempts to run course up on my chart plotter, I give up. It just does not work for me. The Admiral now also prefers north up. Having the chart pivot around the boat on the display drives me crazy. Newbies on the boat will just need to get used to it. I guess I have had too many years in using paper charts, something about teaching old dogs new tricks.
> 
> It was an interesting discussion, thanks for everyone's input.


Glad to hear the Admiral has finally Seen the Light


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