# CrowdFunding



## scotian.sailor (Mar 13, 2017)

Hi All,

I'm wondering what people think of the use of crowdfunding to finance their sailing adventures. I have started to consider using something like gofundme to help offset some of my travel, food, gear costs, etc.. My biggest overall thing for this summer is some offshore racing on the West Coast (SoCal 300 and TransPac) and I'm from the East Coast.

Thoughts?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Somewhere between 3-6 times a year someone comes on SailNet hoping to crowd source their sailing adventure. I exchanged email and followed a couple of these folks in this process out of curiosity. Frankly they were not successful at raising anything other than from family and close friends and even then it was not enough to do much good. At best, if you are a really good sailor, you might be able to get a crew spot on a cruising boat or you might be able to sign onto some racing program at the lowest level and work your way up. 

Otherwise, Plan 'B'-get a piece of cardboard and make sign that reads, "Aspiring yachtsman looking for help buying foulies" and stand in an intersection with a cup and let us know how you made out. 

Jeff


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I think is a very creepy thing to do.... YUCK


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

If you could see me right now you would realize that I was ignoring your question. I would be thinking, did he really just ask that? and if i did answer your question I would suggest that you get a cup and a sign and stand on the end of the Jetty on race day and wait for one of the race boats to sail close enough and throw bags of money into your cup.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Maybe if you offer something of real value to your donors, you might have something worth supporting. 
Personally, I rather dislike people who want something for nothing. To me they are just parasites.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

If by crowd funding you mean the various forms of personal financial support that some sailors and cruisers receive, then there are quite a few examples. The ones I’m aware of are mostly the Youtuber-types who provide a service that is valued by their supporters: their videos and ancillary stuff. I’ve also heard of some “good causes” that receive crowdfunded support. I’ve never heard of someone receiving support so they can go "offshore racing,” but I wouldn’t be surprised if that example also exists.

As far as I can understand it, those successful at this are selling a good and entertaining story. Flashing a bit of sexy skin seems to help as well.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

MikeOReilly said:


> As far as I can understand it, those successful at this are selling a good and entertaining story. Flashing a bit of sexy skin seems to help as well.


Like an individual soliciting crew for his professional boat moving service...sounds familiar


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

MikeOReilly said:


> As far as I can understand it, those successful at this are selling a good and entertaining story. Flashing a bit of sexy skin seems to help as well.





aa3jy said:


> Like an individual soliciting crew for his professional boat moving service...sounds familiar


In his defense, I have never seen Dave post provocative pics of himself...


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

ianjoub said:


> In his defense, I have never seen Dave post provocative pics of himself...


For which we are all rather thankful.


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## AJC506 (Nov 3, 2016)

aa3jy said:


> Like an individual soliciting crew for his professional boat moving service...sounds familiar


I don't think these are similar at all.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I'm guessing you are talking about something like Fundmytravel?

With all of the poverty and environmental catastrophe taking place in the world, I can't imagine any motivation any one would have for spending their charitable donation budget on supporting somebody's yachting escapades.

Yachting is really one of those hobbies you should pay for out of your own pocket in my opinion.

If you're talking about selling advertising on a blog or a vlog, that's a different matter, but there are only a handful of people doing this succesfully, it takes investment in camera and editing equipment, time and a cool storey to tell.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Get off your ass and get a job and stop bothering people who have made money doing what you don't want to do: WORK.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

I certainly wouldn't spend my boating money that I *WORK* for to fund somebody elses boating hobby.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Don't you guys north of the border already have something like that? I think it's called the dole. Just work a few months at a seasonal job and then the government gives you enough dosh and medical care to be sailing in the ol caribe for 8 months of the year.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

aeventyr60 said:


> Don't you guys north of the border already have something like that? I think it's called the dole. Just work a few months at a seasonal job and then the government gives you enough dosh and medical care to be sailing in the ol caribe for 8 months of the year.


I only wish&#8230;


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

aeventyr60 said:


> Don't you guys north of the border already have something like that? I think it's called the dole. Just work a few months at a seasonal job and then the government gives you enough dosh and medical care to be sailing in the ol caribe for 8 months of the year.


Pogey doesn't work like that. There are restrictions. You need to be in the country, and you need to be available for work, which means students are not eligible.

Recreational activities that pare well with Pogey are skiing, sledding, snowboarding, hockey and sailing the left coast, don't ask me how I know. International cruising doesn't fit into the equation.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

I'm saving up for a whisker pole, roller furling, auto pilot, AIS transponder and a big genoa and you want me to donate to you?


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

MikeOReilly said:


> As far as I can understand it, those successful at this are selling a good and entertaining story. *Flashing a bit of sexy skin seems to help as well.*


^It seems to be by far the most important factor. If you want to make it on youtube...have a GF who likes to be flaunted to the internet in her bikini...and start shoving as much cleavage as possible into the thumbnails. This is the key. :smile

If you are producing cruising videos, then you are creating something of value that someone may want to pay you for. Because high quality video production is WORK. HOURS and HOURS of WORK. If you do good work, and stick with it, you can turn it into a modest amount of cash flow. If you just point your phone at your boat, don't edit anything, and generally make crappy videos, you won't get far. This is the level we're working at, these days:


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I've always felt there was strong whorish smell to that game.
Those people want the shortcuts.
I used to see it often when I was involved in another type of adventure recreation. 
They like to get 'sponsored-up', meaning free stuff for promises filled later, thinking sponsors add validity.
From then on, their goal is to impress and you can't tell truth from fiction...
Tip my 'gas can'.....? 
Really need to replace x in the next x period of time...etc.
I think this also hurts those that operate as a real business and do a good job entertaining.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

I have some cruisers friends that are doing the vblog, you tube stuff and they are no fun anymore. They don't come out diving any more, no time to throw a frisbee, no getting on the piss and telling war stories. They are "too busy" editing, filming, charging batteries to do any fun stuff..think they are sailing less too. I told them why don't you just go back and get a job..it would certainly pay a bit more and allow you to do do what your supposed to be doing.

I doubt they will be successful, as they are typical of the cruisers out here: Old, not so pretty and serious sagging on the bits most seem to be interested in on these types of videos.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

aeventyr60 said:


> ....They are "too busy" editing, filming, charging batteries to do any fun stuff........


They are now working, not tripping and living for the adventure.
It is tremendous work to pull it off.


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## Towguy (May 8, 2016)

aa3jy said:


> Like an individual soliciting crew for his professional boat moving service...sounds familiar


i think advertising for crew is a totally different thing,..its a win/win people get experiance (sailing lessons are expensive)and he can keep his rates reasonable....Ralph


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

It’s a fine balance to be sure aeventyr60; finding the right place between work and play (or work and living). As a magazine writer I consciously stopped trying to turn my journey’s into stories. Of course that was back when my journey’s were the exception. Now that I’m full timing it (although not full time on the boat yet), I’m wondering about whether I should move into the Youtube video world. I’m still writing for some mags as well, but writing really doesn’t pay anymore. Filming, editing, mixing, posting … it all takes a huge amount of time. And the cost in quality equipment is not small, although a lot smaller than it used to be. We’ll see… 

amwbox, that is some beautiful filming, audio and story telling. Really great. Makes me see how much I have to learn. But where are the bikini babes ? Guess you don’t need it with that stunning videography and inspirational narrative (not really my style, but amazingly lovely).

My approach (if I do it) will be more along the line of two greying codgers, moving along as slowly as we can go, exploring places that are interesting, remote, but not too scary … and I can wear a speedo if it helps .


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Mike, the magazines never really paid much, and now they pay less. At one time, I was writing for 25 print publications, including the Washington Post, Baltimore Sunpapers and York Dispatch. None of them paid worth a damned, but I made up for it in volume. I also wrote for some of the largest outdoor magazines in the world, and while their pay rate was fairly good, it took a lot more time to put one of their articles together because of the photo requirements.

In my case, during my trip down the ICW, I was crowdfunding by doing what I loved to do - play music and sing. In doing this, I drew some fairly large crowds to the performances, put out a tip pitcher and they filled it every night. So, I guess I was crowdfunding, but in a different way. I played and sang to the crowds and they funded part of my expenses.

So, Mike, when you eventually sail down to Marathon Key Florida and go into the Marathon City Marina, you will see the sign post that I'm playing near. You WILL love it down there.










All the best,

Gary


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There is simply no reason for a stranger to just send a stranger money, simply because they asked for it. There needs to be a reason. I see no reason in the OP.

Those making vids on youtube/patreon are arguable working for a living. They spend hours making vids, editing and publishing. They are competing on story lines and quality. No way I want to spend that kind of time, while cruising. 

There is a youtube channel done by a couple of kids (2-3 years out of college) that I watched religiously. They got jobs out of school and saved every penny to buy a boat and take a year off to sail to Bermuda. I loved the vicarious feeling of remembering when I was their age. Their video editing was horrible, but it didn't matter. It was the adventure. 

Then they got back, after fulfilling their dream, and found Patreon. Next thing I know they are looking for other folks to send them money, so they can buy a bigger boat and do it again. I stopped watching. They weren't nearly good enough to be commercial quality to pay for. It instantly became a couple of 20-somethings that weren't getting down to making their own money and financing their own dreams. They were just hoping those of us that did would pay for their habit too.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

aa3jy said:


> Like an individual soliciting crew for his professional boat moving service...sounds familiar


I think that is a very cheap shot. First of all there are a lot of people out there who are desperately trying to get offshore experience. There are people who will pay to make passages just to get experience.

And if you have ever sailed with Dave, he is one of the most impressively well rounded and knowledgeable sailors you can ever meet. When it comes to safe and efficient boat handling, Dave's knowledge is humbling.

So to me, Dave's offer to take people offshore with him was a very generous offer. That offer may not appeal to some folks, but to someone who wants to go offshore and wants to learn what that looks like, then there can be few better classrooms than a voyage with Dave.

Jeff


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I can't think of many more demeaning things than begging strangers to fund my play/adventure time. There are so many on this planet who could use that money to feed their families or for medical care and medicines, that I just could never ask for something so selfish and frivolous.
If you wanna play, then you should pay. Gary had it right, he plays to play! Lucky him.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

MikeOReilly said:


> amwbox, that is some beautiful filming, audio and story telling. Really great. Makes me see how much I have to learn. But where are the bikini babes ? Guess you don't need it with that stunning videography and inspirational narrative (not really my style, but amazingly lovely).


Quality over jiggle.



> My approach (if I do it) will be more along the line of two greying codgers, moving along as slowly as we can go, exploring places that are interesting, remote, but not too scary &#8230; and I can wear a speedo if it helps .


To be fair...these guys on Sea Change, though they look like bums, are actually pro film makers. 









They are shooting with RED Epic cinema cameras...the body alone on that sort of kit costs as much as a pretty good used car. They are equipped to shoot youtube videos with 5 figures worth of camera and lenses, and they are backing it up with a film school education. Are the rest of us, equipped with GoPros and consumer DSLR's going to do as well? Probably not...but with some proper editing and color grading skills, we can come pretty close.

Not that equipment matters all that much. But a happy side effect of Patreon and the like is that skilled people with serious ambitions can now make a financial case for producing this stuff...and we can all watch it for free.

In any case, what they've produced so far has been great. They're going to work their way up the Amazon, and then down the East coast of S America and around the Horn, apparently.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

The first couple times this question was posed


I was sympathetic... 

I think my patience and the business mode here is at a tipping point. That is to say, the time to be making money like this was one or two years ago, now it seems as if people are more interested in doing it because they think everyone else is making money off of it... and I think very few are succeeding and far more think other people are succeeding at it.

I don't just mean sailing. Most of the people at go fund me see the success and think that is the 'future them'

Make a product (or service like music) and sell it, not an idea. 


Now if your go fund me idea was to start a boat bottom cleaning business, where one invests in your business, this a chance of a financial return, then write out the business plan and see if you get some backers


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

MikeOReilly said:


> My approach (if I do it) will be more along the line of two greying codgers, moving along as slowly as we can go, exploring places that are interesting, remote, but not too scary &#8230; and I can wear a speedo if it helps .


That is my (our) plan as well. We just won't need to vblog or otherwise try to impress anyone for our living. We will provide for that ahead of time and just enjoy the cruising.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" Rothschild

In distance past (previous Sailnet owners)there was a policy of no solicitation and business promotion..unfortunately that has past...


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> aa3jy said:
> 
> 
> > Like an individual soliciting crew for his professional boat moving service...sounds familiar
> ...


"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.." Shakespeare


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## twoshoes (Aug 19, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> I think that is a very cheap shot. First of all there are a lot of people out there who are desperately trying to get offshore experience. There are people who will pay to make passages just to get experience.
> 
> And if you have ever sailed with Dave, he is one of the most impressively well rounded and knowledgeable sailors you can ever meet. When it comes to safe and efficient boat handling, Dave's knowledge is humbling.
> 
> ...


+1

My wife is taking our older daughter to Europe this summer, and dropping our toddler son off at the in-laws on her way out of the country. When the dates are set, I plan on taking time off myself and contacting Dave to see if he has any use for me for one of his unpaid internships. The last time I crewed aboard an experienced captain's boat (ASA 104), I had to cough up some serious coin for the privilege. I'll jump at the chance to do it for free.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Yea, I'll pile on.

Go to work. Get a job, anywhere doing anything. Doesn't pay enough, below your dignity offering fries with that? Fine, make some money at that job and use the money and borrow some money to get some schooling that gets you a better job? Say there are no jobs for people with higher education, do some research first and see which degrees actually result in jobs that pay well and help you pay back the debt? Don't like that, work with a tradesman as a journeyman to become good at a job that pays well?

Hoping you can make it fast track as an actor, celebrity or a sports star? Pretty competitive, so have a backup plan...see above. Check to odds on any path, when it's 1:1000 or worse, don't plan on winning the lottery.

Be responsible, to family, friends and what you believe in. Be a net contributor to the world.

Remember the participation awards you received were only for showing up. They don't mean you were special.

Life is work, but guess what, work is fulfilling. Providing for yourself and others is a worthy pursuit. Earn your escapes, then they will mean something.

And between providing for yourself by working, remember to give something back. Give to the poor, hungry, sick, and the people who really need it. There is so much real suffering in the world, plenty to do here. It will remind you of how lucky you are that you are able to work, provide for yourself, and maybe even have a little extra to go sailing.

<end of rant>


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> ....So to me, Dave's offer to take people offshore with him was a very generous offer.....


Generous indeed. What I find the most is his apparent willingness to take along a stranger, let alone the less experienced.

Even paid crew, I've gotten to know, in person, before I've had them along for as little as a single day. It's the one detail that modestly concerns me over how I'll make the annual planned trek south/north in retirement. I know I can solicit crew, but I'm not keen on being cooped up with a stranger for a week or two. I can certainly do it and am very sociable, I just find it exhausting to integrate someone new aboard, getting to know them, figuring out what makes them tick, what they are good at or not, etc. Good on Dave.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

I recently saw a vlog or youtube made by a guy who endeavored to assess the top ten highest money grossing sailing vlogs. Sorry, I can't provide a link, nor can I explain how he gathered his data. Bottom line: of the top ten highest-funded sailing vlogs, only 4 made enough to buy groceries. That tells me that there are a lot of people working long hours on boat repairs and video shooting/editing for very little return.

Back in the real world, my income tax refund windfall is almost enough to buy the cheapest new sail for my 41-year-old 19' daysailer. There's no dam way I'm paying to watch somebody else to sail a 40'er around the Eastern Caribbean. I know this sounds really deviant, but I am actually working hard and saving money so that I can by a bigger boat and cruise her without having to solicit donations from strangers.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

aa3jy said:


> Like an individual soliciting crew for his professional boat moving service...sounds familiar


That would certainly be me. Not very subtle since lots of others have picked up on the reference as well. *grin* I'm not sure why you have a chip on your shoulder about me. We seemed to get along okay when we met in your shop, and I bought some gear from you that didn't work out very well.



ianjoub said:


> In his defense, I have never seen Dave post provocative pics of himself...


Never going to happen. I'm just not that pretty.



krisscross said:


> For which we are all rather thankful.


As you should be. *grin*



Towguy said:


> i think advertising for crew is a totally different thing,..its a win/win people get experiance (sailing lessons are expensive)and he can keep his rates reasonable....Ralph





Jeff_H said:


> First of all there are a lot of people out there who are desperately trying to get offshore experience. There are people who will pay to make passages just to get experience.


That is entirely my intent. Between my own list and that of OPO I have thousands of crew candidates. I've never had a problem sourcing crew for a delivery. People want to crew for a number of reasons. They may want adventure, or offshore time (I sign Small Sea Vessel Service forms), or to learn something specific, or to see if it is really for them, or to experience sailing offshore with some guidance before taking their own boat offshore. I do not and will not charge people to sail with me. That makes me and some of my colleagues attractive options.

I will point out that when I posted directions on how to get on my crew list (in the correct subforum by the way) I reported myself right away to bring the post to the attention of the moderators. I think I hold the SailNet record for self-reporting. *grin*



Jeff_H said:


> And if you have ever sailed with Dave, he is one of the most impressively well rounded and knowledgeable sailors you can ever meet. When it comes to safe and efficient boat handling, Dave's knowledge is humbling.
> 
> So to me, Dave's offer to take people offshore with him was a very generous offer. That offer may not appeal to some folks, but to someone who wants to go offshore and wants to learn what that looks like, then there can be few better classrooms than a voyage with Dave.


Thanks Jeff. While any given person may consider this either a benefit or torture, I have a lot of stories to tell. All have footnotes and morals. That means we can talk about what happened, why it happened, and what your takeaway might be. I want you to learn from my mistakes so you can go on to make new and creative mistakes of your own. I would hope you will share those with me, preferably here on SailNet so many may benefit, so I can learn also. We all can afford to learn.

Once I select crew for a particular voyage I reach out to make sure I know what they want to gain. Sometimes that has an impact on who gets woken up. "We're going to do the thing you wanted to learn about - lets go on deck and talk about it, do it, and then we'll talk about it over breakfast." If I'm talking instead of eating that's okay.



aa3jy said:


> In distance past (previous Sailnet owners)there was a policy of no solicitation and business promotion..unfortunately that has past...


I either ask permission or report myself to make sure everything business related gets a careful look from the moderators.

I am proud of my contributions here on SailNet. I don't get paid for the time I spend answering questions online or the many questions I get by email. I don't have the organization that @Jeff_H has of previous material so each dissertation (*grin*) rolls out of my fingertips. I get some business (satellite phones, SSB installations, WiFi range extenders, other communications (long-range cellular has been increasing), electronics). It sure isn't a lot. I imagine others like the late Jon Eisberg and MaineSail would tell you the same. We're here to help



twoshoes said:


> When the dates are set, I plan on taking time off myself and contacting Dave to see if he has any use for me for one of his unpaid internships. The last time I crewed aboard an experienced captain's boat (ASA 104), I had to cough up some serious coin for the privilege. I'll jump at the chance to do it for free.


Which drops you neatly into one of the sorts of people I mentioned above. After structured instruction (which is a great way to learn) there is still a role for apprenticeship, experiencing the real world and learning to apply what you have learned. All with the safety net of someone who is accountable for the safety of crew and boat. I get the benefit of a watchstander. Crew get the benefit of discussion and instruction.

One recent crew member described sailing with me as graduate school for offshore sailing. I'm not sure I think so but consider what graduate school is in academia. The assumption is that all the fundamentals are in hand, there is a safety net for areas of weakness, and there is an expectation for application and original work.

So consider a scenario. In ASA whatever when a ship heaves over the horizon the instructor may show you how to take bearings, check AIS, etc. You may get to practice but you already know what the answer is. When you wake me up at 3a (it's always 3a) that there is a wedding cake on the horizon I'll ask you what you've done, what you should do that you haven't done, agree on a course of action, send you back on deck, and follow along behind you. By the time I'm on deck you've done a lot and we can talk about anything that might have been missed, discuss the options, and send you on your way--under supervision--to execute. Doctoral studies get more flexibility. *grin*

On the other hand if you wake me to say a sail has come down there will be more doing and less talking.



Minnewaska said:


> Generous indeed. What I find the most is his apparent willingness to take along a stranger, let alone the less experienced.


So lets talk about that. At this point I have sailed with a lot of people. If I only sailed with people I have sailed with before I would have trouble staffing boats. I have had to learn what is important in selecting crew. I even have a talk I give on the subject. I'll be presenting it again (everything I present is always updated for every event) at the SSCA Annapolis Gam in October 2017. I expect to sell an article to Ocean Navigator that I hope to see published in the same time frame.

I look at making room for less experienced people as an investment in the future of our sport and my business. More experienced crew have gone on to become accomplished cruisers and delivery skippers in their own right. Some still come back for "tune-ups with Dave" from time to time.

So let's talk about the list. I made my crew list available to SailNet in two ways. First you may sign up (see the posting in "Crew Wanted") without cost or obligation. Being on the list is no guarantee of a ride - you have to be selected and I put together the best crew I can for every customer. You can get more offshore opportunities by signing up for OPO but that costs $250 (I think) per year.



Minnewaska said:


> Even paid crew, I've gotten to know, in person, before I've had them along for as little as a single day. It's the one detail that modestly concerns me over how I'll make the annual planned trek south/north in retirement.


I can help you. We can talk about selecting crew, the process I use, the mistakes I've made and what I've learned, and let you use my list and how to use the OPO list. I may point you to resources that have some cost (like my presentations at meetings with entrance fees and webinars) but my advise, like all my contributions on SailNet, is free.

Updated story: I moved a boat last year from Fort Lauderdale to Little Creek VA. The owner wanted to get the boat to Barnegat NJ. He had schedule issues and thought if I would take it to Norfolk he could go the rest of the way himself. He wasn't trying to save money - he wanted to sail his boat offshore. The guy was really nice - he met us in Little Creek and kindly took us to dinner. The crew were bubbling about what they had experienced and learned. The next day, after dropping crew at the airport the owner asked me to stay on and sail with him to Barnegat. He was happy with how I'd handled the boat but was most impressed by the enthusiasm of the crew. He wanted that experience also. So we topped up fuel, water, and provisions and headed North. We sat down with weather and decided to head up the Chesapeake and down the Delaware (we sailed everything but the C&D) to let a system pass and still make progress. As we rounded Cape May (his watch) he woke me to ask if we should turn back. It was bumpy. I told there was no reason to do so - the boat was strong and we just had to be careful. In Barnegat he told me his confidence in his boat and himself was greatly improved. Now I'm no Robin Walbridge. We were out in 30 kts and 6-8 ft seas. Just not a big deal. A little pounding. Lots of use of handholds. Great boat speed. No damage, no injuries. Everyone should come off the boat a better sailor than they walked on, including me.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Not sure how that analysis of vlogs was done. I think the top youtube vlog is Sailing LaVagabond, which probably makes very little from youtube revenue. However, their Patreon sponsors have signed up for something like $9k per video! SV Delos is probably second most popular and around $7k per video. 

However, they were both early adopters and followers will have a very hard time busting through. It can be done, but the first always has an advantage. Eventually, this new model will be taken over by corporate interests, which is already starting. SLV is getting a new boat, partially underwritten by Outremer. Rumor has it that Amel is talking to Delos. We'll see if things change.

I will add that SLV's last vid has a gratuitous shot of Riley standing naked on the side decks, facing away, with a towel over his shoulder that hangs down and covers his butt. Fair is fair, it can't just be the ladies that are half naked, but I have to say that this shot served absolutely no other purpose. Ladies in bikinis are sunning or swimming, this one was just a money shot for lady contributors on Patreon.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

The top ten grossing sailing vlogs analysis included estimates of income from Patreon, as well as Youtube revenue. He estimated that LaVagabond pulls in over $300K per year. Delos was second, my recollection is about $150K. Rick Moore's Sophistcated Lady was third at $50+K. 

A new entry on the sailing scene is in the top 4: Gone with the Wynns. They starting sailing about a year ago, but they had previous motorhome traveling vlog experience.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SLV is in the Med now, so it will be interesting to see how they do with their lifestyle. That's a lot of money, but I don't think there are too many inexpensive places in the Med (ala the Polynisian and Indonesian waters). Perhaps Outremer will be picking up their maintenance costs. It will be interesting to see how much "advertising" they do. 

I did see a vid that had google data, showing how the SLV Cyclades and the Outremer were notably searched when SLV started getting popular and they mentioned getting the Outremer. No doubt, commercial interests will take note of this new media and we'll see more involvement.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> .....I can help you. We can talk about selecting crew, the process I use, the mistakes I've made and what I've learned, and let you use my list and how to use the OPO list. I may point you to resources that have some cost (like my presentations at meetings with entrance fees and webinars) but my advise, like all my contributions on SailNet, is free.......


Thanks, Dave. We're a few years out, but I will take you up on it one day. Please keep me updated on your seminars, etc. Are they at or near the Annapolis Sailboat Show? I hope to get down this year. Weathered out last year.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> I'm not sure why you have a chip on your shoulder about me. We seemed to get along okay when we met in your shop, and I bought some gear from you that didn't work out very well.


...no idea whom you or what you're referring too..


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> Not sure how that analysis of vlogs was done. I think the top youtube vlog is Sailing LaVagabond, which probably makes very little from youtube revenue. However, their Patreon sponsors have signed up for something like $9k per video! SV Delos is probably second most popular and around $7k per video.
> 
> However, they were both early adopters and followers will have a very hard time busting through. It can be done, but the first always has an advantage. Eventually, this new model will be taken over by corporate interests, which is already starting. SLV is getting a new boat, partially underwritten by Outremer. Rumor has it that Amel is talking to Delos. We'll see if things change.
> 
> I will add that SLV's last vid has a gratuitous shot of Riley standing naked on the side decks, facing away, with a towel over his shoulder that hangs down and covers his butt. Fair is fair, it can't just be the ladies that are half naked, but I have to say that this shot served absolutely no other purpose. Ladies in bikinis are sunning or swimming, this one was just a money shot for lady contributors on Patreon.


Of the three Sailing LaVagabound, S/V Delos and Sophisticated Lady I like Delos the best and whose videos I tend to watch the most over the off season. I like their laid back honesty and how they portray daily on board living, maintenance, the explorations they make and when and why they cruise to where they are heading. It's been interesting how their mindset has changed over the years.

They recently spent about two hours answering their Patrons questions live. Bryan admitted that when he started sailing Delos he was of an "all or nothing" mindset when cruising. Though these days they stop and get off the boat for a few months before continuing on. Which is how I think many end up after the initial plunge into the cruising lifestyle. I know my expectations and needs have also changed over the years too.

Though in the early years they stopped because they ran out of money and went back to work to refill the sailing kitty. Brady the brother of Bryan even worked in a fast food shop making Burritos to earn the cash to continue cruising. Though these days they seem to make enough through You Tube videos and Patreon donations but, still take a break from cruising. Though I surprised to hear that Bryan is still making payments on the loan he took out to buy Delos.

I think they earn the money too as Bryan admitted in their latest Q & A video. Taking video's and the time to edit them does take a toll on the cruising experience. It's hours of work to edit them and when one is videoing a scene you are concentrating on framing, focusing etc... in a little screen and missing the big picture experience. They are still about seven months behind in their editing of their recent cruise. Here is a link to their Q & A session: 



 A lot of good info about their routine, equiptment and lifestyle.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

jwing said:


> The top ten grossing sailing vlogs analysis included estimates of income from Patreon, as well as Youtube revenue. He estimated that LaVagabond pulls in over $300K per year. Delos was second, my recollection is about $150K. Rick Moore's Sophistcated Lady was third at $50+K.


I doubt LaVagabond gets anywhere near that.

However if by chance its anywhere near that remember its split between 2 people, less tax of course.
And they have increasing 'on costs' if the hire a pro editor.
There's also 'oportunity costs': it's a short term occupation - no tv show lasts forever. So they have to make it now and stash it in investments.

Finally, $150K per year is low money for a tv host... or lawyer, engineer, or any professional.

So I wouldn't be slapping them around if they were making $300k pa. But I strongly doubt they are

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I don't know, Mark. LaVagabond's Patreon page says they get just about $9k per video and it seems they release about one per week.

I believe Patreon contributors can put in a monthly limit on their contribution, so it's hard to tell if they realize the full $9k. Seems like a heap, however.

https://www.patreon.com/LaVagabonde


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

You can see how much they make from simply looking at their Patreon page:

https://www.patreon.com/LaVagabonde

So...9 grand per video. Patreon takes a 5% cut, iirc.

Even leaving aside ad revenue from youtube entirely, and leaving aside sponsorship deals entirely, they could pull down $150K on fewer than 20 videos.

Also, no, $150K is NOT low money for an engineer. Average salary in this field is still under six figures. Maybe in particular locations $150,000 would be considered "low" for engineering?

Eventually, people will get tired of this Patreon thing, and the bottom will fall out of all of this. Personally, I'd find it difficult to give even a dollar a video to a couple who are being set up with what could be a 7 figure brand new boat from Outremer as they shamelessly pimp themselves for clicks. But for Sailing with Andy, a former Coastie who's trying to make it around the world by himself on an old Cape Dory 30 along a less beaten path? That's something less commercial that we can feel good about getting behind, even if his production values are a lot rougher.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

I watch quite a few cruisers/sailors on YouTube, but I don't contribute anything but a +1 in the view count. I can appreciate the time they put into production and usually get some decent entertainment value out of the videos, but either my budget or my frame of mind just can't seem to justify sending money from my account to theirs at the push of a button. I've got my own sailing aspirations for that.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

First off, $9K for a quality video is not that high. Professional videography projects could certainly charge that, or more, depending on the client and the job. Anyone who has done any media work knows it takes a huge amount of effort and skill to produce a quality product. I say they’ve earned every penny.

And I don’t get why people are annoyed by La Vagabond or any of the other Youtubers. They are in the business of getting clicks. They do it with quality content, and other enticements. As an old newspaper guy I know the best street sales were on issues with sex, blood or cute animals on the front page. It’s the original “clickbait”. It’s the way to attract attention and eyeballs. No different than today.

This selling part of your soul to get what you want is pretty common. Look at any professional sports event or facility. Logos splashed everywhere. Massive donations of equipment and money. These youtubers are just playing the same old game. If it works for them, then great. 

The cool thing about tools like youtube and patreon is that instead of sucking up big money interests, people like us can now suck up to focused mass audiences. Instead of chasing the big corporate donations these tools let people chase lots of small individuals.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

The reality is those guys are not cruising anymore....met one...not to be named here...they are a bit of a pariah in the cruising community..but the dirt dwellers seem to be sucking it up...


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

kwaltersmi said:


> I watch quite a few cruisers/sailors on YouTube, but I don't contribute anything but a +1 in the view count. I can appreciate the time they put into production and usually get some decent entertainment value out of the videos, but either my budget or my frame of mind just can't seem to justify sending money from my account to theirs at the push of a button. I've got my own sailing aspirations for that.


There are a couple very small channels I support. Small timers with small boats and big dreams. I think of it as paying a small price for something that would otherwise be freely given without conditions. I think of it as "supporting the arts"...which is something I flatly do not do otherwise. The first time I leave a tip after eating out I've given away more than my entire monthly patreon cost. I see no reason to support the big channels with anything other than views. They're already living large.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

MikeOReilly said:


> The cool thing about tools like youtube and patreon is that instead of sucking up big money interests, people like us can now suck up to focused mass audiences. Instead of chasing the big corporate donations these tools let people chase lots of small individuals.


It's democratized access to the viewers. It's not as though something as niche as cruising was every going to be a TV show. And even it was, it would likely be reality TV style, and all about drama and idiocy as opposed to actual cruising. We've got hundreds of people with full access to the world, able to tell their story...and in the future, have an excellent documentation of their time on the sea. Win-win, even if it doesn't pay out much in money terms.

As for these people being pariahs and not *actually* cruising...that's dumb. They are moving from place to place on a boat, they are cruising. They just found a way to make a living doing it. This is going to lead to jealousy and resentment from those paying through the nose for the privilege, among some, but not most.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

I'm not annoyed at LaVagabond. They put out a product that many people find valuable, apparently, so more power to them. Early on, I realized that I would not learn anything about sailing, cruising, or how to afford the lifestyle from LaVagabond. I stuck for a little while longer to see how a somewhat dufus chucklehead /somewhat charming guy like Riley managed to get a woman like Elena to not only sail with him, but also do most of the daily life aboard work, as well as leading the vlogging effort. I suspect that a peek into that particular fantasy-come-true-for-Riley is pulling the huge viewership. Alas, I didn't learn anything about that, either, so I no longer watch them.

Most of what I've learned from sailing vlogs come from those like Sailing Salty, who come to realize that, despite what I read in the sailing forums, monohulls less than 40' are too small for a cruising couple. But I already knew that, based purely on the sleeping accommodations on the smaller sailboats.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

aeventyr60 said:


> The reality is those guys are not cruising anymore....met one...not to be named here...they are a bit of a pariah in the cruising community..but the dirt dwellers seem to be sucking it up...


Interesting perspective. I've thought about Delos being in the Caribbean by next winter and that I would love to dinghy over and say hello. They're not exactly role models for me, but I've found their channel very entertaining and sometimes, thought provoking.

However, I do not want to be filmed and figured these vloggers are sticking a camera in everyone's face. Is that the reason they are pariahs?


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

jwing said:


> Most of what I've learned from sailing vlogs come from those like Sailing Salty, who come to realize that, despite what I read in the sailing forums, monohulls less than 40' are too small for long term cruising.


To each their own, but there are some extremely well known cruisers that have spent a lifetime cruising in _far_ less than that.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I don't think this Patreon model will just die. I think it will be taken over by big media, as bundled cable TV is going to die. Folks are going to pay for specific channels they want. More likely, you'll have a channel, like LaVagabond, right in your TV. Whether you pay per episode or for the channel is to be seen.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Minnewaska said:


> I don't think this Patreon model will just die. I think it will be taken over by big media, as bundled cable TV is going to die. Folks are going to pay for specific channels they want. More likely, you'll have a channel, like LaVagabond, right in your TV. Whether you pay per episode or for the channel is to be seen.


Honestly, with net neutrality on the chopping block, I'm expecting internet access in general to go that way. You won't just get access to the whole internet...you'll pay for a package that includes specific things. This much money for the package that includes youtube and netflix. This much for the non-4K version...this much for basic facebook and news browsing, this much for the "economy package" capped at 100 gigs a month, or throttled to a particular speed. Or whatever. The end of competition, in short.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Interesting perspective. I've thought about Delos being in the Caribbean by next winter and that I would love to dinghy over and say hello. They're not exactly role models for me, but I've found their channel very entertaining and sometimes, thought provoking.
> 
> However, I do not want to be filmed and figured these vloggers are sticking a camera in everyone's face. Is that the reason they are pariahs?


.

It's a bit more complex then sticking a camera in one's face which does not happen too much.
Part of it is buying a boat they couldn't afford in the first place. Next is getting crew to pay for their adventure. Then the monetizing of the experience...After they made a few bucks then they could fly home...have a bit of celebrity..also not mixing with the other cruisers..seems they got some kind of aura..celebrity status..but they were just like the rest of us dirt bags... Then they were not cruisers..they were working....not diving, not beach bbq's, not throwing the frisbee...hired hands on the boat, nope,young folks paying for the experience..a bit of a charter if you ask me...

A lot of what I see on those videos are highly contrived...snapshots of a moment of time..for a paying audience..No hero's out here. Lot's of average folks in simple boats..living the dream...the vloggers seem to cheapen it. No real impression of how hard, basic sailing life can be out here...
it's actually quite boring out here.. i get lost in mundane boat projects..reading cheap fiction, lazy 22 hour sails down the the coast of Thailand..meeting old friends, getting ready for the next passage...fixing the same old sheet i've been fixing for about the 10th time.
I't it must be glamorous to some, if they can con some folks into sending them some money then I'm a monkeys uncle..


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I don't think this Patreon model will just die. I think it will be taken over by big media, as bundled cable TV is going to die. Folks are going to pay for specific channels they want. More likely, you'll have a channel, like LaVagabond, right in your TV. Whether you pay per episode or for the channel is to be seen.


Yep. You got it.
I was talking to a 21 year old kid and he pulls content I've never heard of. He doesn't watch tv or 3/4 of any thing we know on the internet. 
There's a brave new world there we have no idea about.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

With the likes of https://xmovies8.ru/movie/supergirl-season-2-2016.64802/ why would you pay for anything


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yep. You got it.
> I was talking to a 21 year old kid and he pulls content I've never heard of. He doesn't watch tv or 3/4 of any thing we know on the internet.
> There's a brave new world there we have no idea about.


Very true &#8230; the world keeps moving on. Gets harder and harder for us old farts to keep moving with it, which might be the definition of getting old. But the more things change, the more things stay the same (sounds like something an old fart would say ). Until we all figure out how to get that proverbial "free lunch", people will do what they can to make a buck and have the life the want. Those youtubers have figured out a way that works for them now.

I bet they aren't the most popular in the anchorage aeventyr60 - they're too busy working all the time. It's why I stopped trying to write magazine articles about my journeys. It turned living into working. Sometimes it's hard to find the balance&#8230; especially when the journey becomes full-time life.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Thanks, Dave. We're a few years out, but I will take you up on it one day. Please keep me updated on your seminars, etc. Are they at or near the Annapolis Sailboat Show? I hope to get down this year. Weathered out last year.


Sure. I'll do a better job on the seminars, although someone will surely get their knickers in a bunch over it. *sigh*

The Cruiser's U franchise has pretty well taken over the seminars at the big boat shows and those of us who spoke for CW or CBM aren't included. I speak at SSU, SSCA Gams, Hampton Snowbird Rendezvous, Rally to the Sun, Trawlerfest, and other odds and ends. I'm working on my own Google Hangout "channel" but that is slow going, mostly because people keep asking me to do other things. I also have more ideas than time. I've been spending way too much time on failure cascades lately for which I have no customer. Ah well.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Sorta like before Youtube when I hobnobed with the likes of the The Johnsons ,Smeatons, Pardeys ,Guzwell ,DeRoos and built my own vessel and earned my way on to oceans. They had already been there,done it and I was happy to offer a door fee to hear and meet.and learn. As an ex teacher and pretty fair DYI'r I will declare that most of todays efforts at video entertainment/passing of pertinent information are badly done. AS cream and crud separate in the mix It takes time and carefull cooking to reach any excellence .But no way would I financially support some begger wanting to ride


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

jwing said:


> I'm not annoyed at LaVagabond. They put out a product that many people find valuable, apparently, so more power to them. Early on, I realized that I would not learn anything about sailing, cruising, or how to afford the lifestyle from LaVagabond. I stuck for a little while longer to see how a somewhat dufus chucklehead /somewhat charming guy like Riley managed to get a woman like Elena to not only sail with him, but also do most of the daily life aboard work, as well as leading the vlogging effort. I suspect that a peek into that particular fantasy-come-true-for-Riley is pulling the huge viewership. Alas, I didn't learn anything about that, either, so I no longer watch them.


I agree. I took another look at LaVagabound recently and watched as they filmed their stove rocking back and forth on the gimbals as she attempted to cook pasta and sauce while underway in heavy seas. Another shot a little while later and she is crying with her arm wrapped up in a bandage. It seems she spilled some of the hot water and sauce all over her arm and sole of the cabin. Common sense seems to be short supply on that boat IMO.

Meanwhile on Delos they showed the damage a Barracuda could do when Brady was rinsing the dishes off the stern when a hungry Barracuda mistook his hand for some food scraps. The video followed what took place in terms of first aid on board through arranging and checking his hand out at the local island clinic and then finally removing the stitches while back on board. Much more informative.


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## toddster (Jun 30, 2011)

One model not addressed here is that group of douc... er, _soshully konshus_ adventurers who are out on permanent vacation _to raise awareness_. They are out not just to have a good time! No, it's to raise awareness of toenail fungus! Or to raise awareness of poorly insulated bicycles! They aren't asking you to fund their vacation for their own sake: it's for the puppies! In fact, they're just so darned morally superior to you, that you _owe_ them money.

One just needs to identify a somewhat nebulous cause that will pull the heartstrings of somewhat gullible people with disposable income, and become a crusader!


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

toddster said:


> One model not addressed here is that group of douc... er, _soshully konshus_ adventurers who are out on permanent vacation _to raise awareness_. They are out not just to have a good time! No, it's to raise awareness of toenail fungus! Or to raise awareness of poorly insulated bicycles! They aren't asking you to fund their vacation for their own sake: it's for the puppies! In fact, they're just so darned morally superior to you, that you _owe_ them money.
> 
> One just needs to identify a somewhat nebulous cause that will pull the heartstrings of somewhat gullible people with disposable income, and become a crusader!


Who exactly is this? I don't think I've seen anyone doing this charitably...its more like, "This is fun...so we'll do this."

Well...there was that guy who circumnavigated, alone, the Americas nonstop in an Albin Vega to raise money for charity. We can run him down, I guess, if it makes us feel superior...but I doubt that a nonstop voyage through the Northwest Passage and around Cape Horn on a 27 footer was what most of us would consider to be a vacation.

Cruising is basically hedonistic. It's leisure. If someone's found a way to make the world even a little better somehow in the process, I honestly can't see any problem with that.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

I _MIGHT_ give directly to the charity but not to whom ever is promoting it through having "fun".
Then again probably not, when I die I have nobody to leave anything to so all money left over will go to the local no kill animal shelter.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Promotion of an idea or cause is a valued service … at least to the ones interested or involved in the cause. Travelling in a sailboat certainly lends itself to “green” and ecological-type causes. I’ve certainly heard of a few. On land there are an endless stream of people in RVs, vans, bicycles, and on foot ‘doing their thing’ while supporting a good cause. Some are shysters. Many are providing a valued service.

I don’t see anything inherently wrong with any of that. And if someone has found a way to generate interest, awareness and hopefully cash for a greater good, then I don’t have any problem with them also benefitting with support of their activity. It’s really just another job.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Maybe I should promote my will and estate planning then, the more money people give me to sail the more I'll have left over for The Lakefield Animal Welfare Society!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Tanski said:


> when I die I have nobody to leave anything to so all money left over will go to the local no kill animal shelter.


What about me? 
I can be a bit of an animal and I don't want to die.

.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I am totally confused which thread we are talking about! The: Give me a Free Boat and Vacation thread, or, the Give me a Boat and Free Vacation thread??


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> What about me?
> I can be a bit of an animal and I don't want to die.
> 
> .


You sure about that? I seem to be the angel of death!


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## twoshoes (Aug 19, 2010)

I don't know why you guys are bashing those who raise awareness for environmental concerns. I'm saving to give all my charitable donations to the Leonardo DiCaprio Foundation. The guy is busy working his butt off to save the environment. Why, just not too long ago he had to leave the 450ft mega-yacht he was living on in Cannes (four MTU 12,000hp diesels at a fuel burn rate of 2000gal/hr), get aboard a Gulfstream private jet (fuel burn rate of 500gal/hr), and fly the 8000 mile round trip to New York in order to receive a well-deserved environmental award.

What is wrong with you people? Have you no heart?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Heck, if I could marry a cause I believe in with my lifestyle as a cruiser AND could get you chumps... _er_, I mean outstanding people , to pay for it all - well, Sign Me Up!


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

twoshoes said:


> I don't know why you guys are bashing those who raise awareness for environmental concerns. I'm saving to give all my charitable donations to the Leonardo DiCaprio Foundation. The guy is busy working his butt off to save the environment. Why, just not too long ago he had to leave the 450ft mega-yacht he was living on in Cannes (four MTU 12,000hp diesels at a fuel burn rate of 2000gal/hr), get aboard a Gulfstream private jet (fuel burn rate of 500gal/hr), and fly the 8000 mile round trip to New York in order to receive a well-deserved environmental award.
> 
> What is wrong with you people? Have you no heart?


Both Leonardo DiCaprio and Al Gore can kiss my Carbon Footprint as I scour the waters and shores of the Northeast U.S. in a never ending search for abandon plastic buckets that will be reused on board. 
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: TREASURE BEACH
I'm thinking maybe I should be setting up the Captain Mike Fund for Living and Recycling to accept financial donations.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

MikeOReilly said:


> First off, $9K for a quality video is not that high. Professional videography projects could certainly charge that, or more, depending on the client and the job. Anyone who has done any media work knows it takes a huge amount of effort and skill to produce a quality product. I say they've earned every penny.
> 
> ** snip }


SV Prism mentioned in a video that the guy is in the business and he did some editing or something... I think that is what his job was before sailing.. and the implication is they (she worked at a marina) made a good lump of money off of his summer of editing.

[I fond it kind of ironic that they still have and ask for patrons on pateron.]

But you have a good point. If the Patreon people who are talented enough to work for a travel channel did so, well two things would happen

1) they would make a lot more money (but from and as a business)

2) they wouldn't sail much

The point that keeps getting missed about crowdfunding... It is just a different way to earn money (or to asked to be sponsored).

Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom paid Marlin Perkins to hawk insurance and no one got on the internet (that didn't existed) and complain about how they were forced to listen to insurance talk.

or -- people think nothing of watching a commercial on YouTube so they can watch this year's superbowl commercials


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

titustiger27 said:


> SV Prism mentioned in a video that the guy is in the business and he did some editing or something... I think that is what his job was before sailing.. and the implication is they (she worked at a marina) made a good lump of money off of his summer of editing.
> 
> [I fond it kind of ironic that they still have and ask for patrons on pateron.]
> 
> ...


I found it interesting that La Vagabond put out a call in a recent video to hire a crew member primarily for filming and editing so the gal would not have to spend anymore time doing it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mbianka said:


> I found it interesting that La Vagabond put out a call in a recent video to hire a crew member primarily for filming and editing so the gal would not have to spend anymore time doing it.


They've had one or two of these already. Also wonder what happened to them.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> They've had one or two of these already. Also wonder what happened to them.


Interesting. Perhaps being locked in a cabin down below with a Laptop caused them to jump ship!  Though reading through some of the Bryan's blogs on S/V Delos editing down below is not something that he and others on board ever looked forward to doing especially when underway. Maybe thats why they are seven months behind in documenting their second Indian Ocean cruise. One probably misses a lot of the sailing experience even if you don't get seasick staring at the laptop screen for hours. But, it's what brings in the Patreon money for these boats and so I'd classify it as a "job". So it's not all fun in the sun for those who go the Patreon route even if they start to make some serious cash. That beast must be fed on a regular basis or you will start to lose the audience and money.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

mbianka said:


> I found it interesting that La Vagabond put out a call in a recent video to hire a crew member primarily for filming and editing so the gal would not have to spend anymore time doing it.


I haven't watched laVag in a while. I liked it and it is probably still good, but I tend to like the less polish, less reliant on sexy bodies* (not that I don't enjoy sexy bodies, I just don't depend on a sailing vlog for that... ahem).

I think maybe the fact they ask for crew for this, as a sign they are doing well.

Add to this once you get to that level, you working more at becoming a generic over-produced reality show and less than an intriguing or personal.

One of the things for the crowd funding people is the #FirstWorldProblems When the

_*speaking of bodies.. or sex sells. I noticed the latest video from Shaun and Julia made a joke about going to the Vimeo version to see 'plenty of topless video of Shaun' A reference, I guess, to how Miss Lone Star tries to get patrons by saying they will have access to the uncensored vimeo. A weird joke about how another vlogger uses sex to sell their channel, considering how often Shaun's camera found it's way to Julia's posterior_


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

titustiger27 said:


> I haven't watched laVag in a while. I liked it and it is probably still good, but I tend to like the less polish, less reliant on sexy bodies* (not that I don't enjoy sexy bodies, I just don't depend on a sailing vlog for that... ahem).
> 
> I think maybe the fact they ask for crew for this, as a sign they are doing well.
> 
> Add to this once you get to that level, you working more at becoming a generic over-produced reality show and less than an intriguing or personal.




Another favorite sailing Vlog of mine without the eye candy moments and more informative is Drake Paragon. I have not watched in awhile so I don't know how they are doing recently. But, his early solo sail from New York to Bermuda was a perfect example of the road to Hell being paved with good intentions. When he came to the aid of a boat that had no steering, no motor and no sails. He took them in tow and was sorry he did. A lesson learned as well as a cautionary tale:


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

mbianka said:


> Another favorite sailing Vlog of mine without the eye candy moments and more informative is Drake Paragon. I have not watched in awhile so I don't know how they are doing recently. But, his early solo sail from New York to Bermuda was a perfect example of the road to Hell being paved with good intentions. When he came to the aid of a boat that had no steering, no motor and no sails. He took them in tow and was sorry he did. A lesson learned as well as a cautionary tale:


It's funny (not ha ha) the towing video is the only one I watched... that and the xmas one he made with several other vloggers in 2015

I don't dislike what I saw.. it was kind of interesting... but

I guess what I like is an ongoing vlog. I'm really disappointed that Monday Never, sold their boat. And I would be okay with them doing their European Motorcycle trip, if they produced more videos

btw, I can't thank The Sailing-Channels (Thomas) enough for that site


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

The sailing channels all seem to follow the same format: Vlog style, handheld camera pointed into face. Camera pointed at face, talking...or camera panning around at location...with voice over.

It would be interesting if someone did videos about sailing. About the boat. About the sea, the weather, the places...instead of making it a borderline narcissistic moving self portrait: Look at me in my bathing suit while I do things in locations you dream about from your desk! Listen to these 5 or 6 copyright free songs! Perhaps someone should just make some videos without the vlog format...maybe never even get in front of the camera at all, unless it's part of the process of operating the boat or demonstrating a repair or something. Make it a first person documentary. Put the focus on the camera work...or even make it at least somewhat educational.

For example, instead of a series of clips that shows the standing rigging being replaced in vague terms...maybe do something to explain the complete process in an interesting way...maybe explain how to calculate the righting moment so you know how to size the shrouds. Maybe some sort of animation, I don't know.

What we've got is a stale formula that everyone keeps repeating...whilst interspersing more and more slow motion shots of glistening nearly naked bodies in order to basically _beg_ for views. I enjoy the female form as much as the next red blooded sailor...but at some point it just gets disrespectful.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

amwbox

it is interesting. I have commented to several vloggers to think about a niche of some sort, instead of being a 'cliché' as you suggest.

The pandering is getting pathetic. Like mentioning the top three vlogs in your title to get people to look at your 'analysis' of ... any number of things --- which has nothing to do with our vlog or your sailing.

The worse pandering right now is Sailing Doodles. The 'screen shot' for each video has Megan in her bikini, but from a shot that doesn't even exist in the video... 

In general, his videos are not that bad.. though they do cater a bit to 'babes and beer' .. but he is in his late 20's why not...?

I just think to focus on the women (a couple vids ago he had some unbelievably beautiful models on the boat (when Megan was away), but why there were there or the connection (friends, dates, drifters..?)) was never made. 

Kind of like Rick Moore added Miss Lone Star (and another woman), but other than to have some bikini shots...sexual ambiguity? and that one is so funny because he seems to be an old hippie, with a Russian girlfriend AND socially uncomfortable teenage (?) son in the middle of all that. But not intriguing or interesting enough to make me want to watch it...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

amwbox said:


> ......instead of making it a borderline narcissistic moving self portrait: .....


Some of them do come across this way. However, the crew of Delos often looks pretty salty on passage, including Karen. They are usually filming each other, but I find it stays in the context of hearing what the lifestyle is like, what they are doing or thinking, etc. They recently did a vid on how they weather plan. Interviewing their newbie crew on their reactions to an ocean passage was also interesting, especially while at the helm.

As I think about it, there are only so many specific sailing topics: passages, boat stuff, weather, etc. Personalities are far more broad.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mbianka said:


> .....without the eye candy moments and more informative is Drake Paragon......


Mo is cute and a real sport. Seems she suffers from cronic seasickness, but sticks right in there and crossed the Atlantic. As my wife likes to remind me, there aren't that many woman that would stand a night watch.

I find myself fast forwarding Drake's vids lately. They are good and depict both their personalities and the lifestyle. However, it's too much detail and falling further and further behind real time. I think they are at least two years back right now. This past year has covered maybe 4-5 months of their crossing.

Since there is clearly a vicarious aspect of these channels, I'm beginning to realize that recency matters to a point. I'm not sure what the boundary is, but someone else thought Delos being 7 months out was too long. I've even heard Delos suggest they want to be within 3 months. Not sure what the right lag is, but 3 - 6 months seems to be settling in as the right zone. Drake may be pushing 3 years now.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

mbianka said:


> Interesting. Perhaps being locked in a cabin down below with a Laptop caused them to jump ship!  Though reading through some of the Bryan's blogs on S/V Delos editing down below is not something that he and others on board ever looked forward to doing especially when underway. Maybe thats why they are seven months behind in documenting their second Indian Ocean cruise. One probably misses a lot of the sailing experience even if you don't get seasick staring at the laptop screen for hours. But, it's what brings in the Patreon money for these boats and so I'd classify it as a "job". So it's not all fun in the sun for those who go the Patreon route even if they start to make some serious cash. That beast must be fed on a regular basis or you will start to lose the audience and money.


I haven't followed this thread closely, but I'm a big fan of Dylan Winters work. Currently he's editing the footage from the last season, sailing through the Shetlands, Orkney's and onto the west coast of Scotland.

He takes tons of footage while sailing (best sailing footage I've found), then on shore as well.

The editing - and he's been doing this type of work most of his working career - is taking him about 3 weeks per 40--50 minute episode, in his home based studio.

That is a lot of work! And his results (I think) are high quality videos combining sailing and local history, local music well edited in - and so much more - for this interesting and remote cruising area.

"It's not all fun in the sun", that's for sure. It's work on his part and I've been happy to support his work. If you want high quality, artistic sailing/cruising videos, his stand alone. But it is a job!

This is a tough industry to make a profit. I think the winners that are making any serious $ are as rare as lottery winners if compared to the #s of wanna be's shooting so-so footage and uploading for a few dollars.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Cruising is not typically considered an "industry"> And even if it were... why should turning a profit be "easy"... Anyone who works with their hands.. doesn't usually see profits as do those who have profit from "unearned" income.. commissions and so forth.

If you want to start and operate a business as most people do... does expect people to fund your biz model as a charity. We give to people in need... not people who are too lazy to raise capital for the business ideas.



TomMaine said:


> I haven't followed this thread closely, but I'm a big fan of Dylan Winters work. Currently he's editing the footage from the last season, sailing through the Shetlands, Orkney's and onto the west coast of Scotland.
> 
> He takes tons of footage while sailing (best sailing footage I've found), then on shore as well.
> 
> ...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TomMaine said:


> ..... I'm a big fan of Dylan Winters work........


First class videographer. Interestingly, for the quality, he has very few subscribers. About 14,000 vs hundreds of thousands for the SLV and Delos. I suppose the bikini or two accounts for some of it. However, I think the real difference is the display of the lifestyle and personalities. Dylan's seem more focused on the visual beauty and videography and isn't selling as well.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> Cruising is not typically considered an "industry"> And even if it were... why should turning a profit be "easy"... Anyone who works with their hands.. doesn't usually see profits as do those who have profit from "unearned" income.. commissions and so forth.
> 
> If you want to start and operate a business as most people do... does expect people to fund your biz model as a charity. We give to people in need... not people who are too lazy to raise capital for the business ideas.


I should say, the media side of cruising. That's an old industry. That industry used to be primarily print. But things were the same: Cruisers and their audience (most of which wanted to cruise), were looking for ways to make $ while 'living the dream'.

There were the rock stars of the print era (Pardy's for instance) that made a go of it with articles and book sales. No doubt there was an avalanche of really bad articles sent to all the sailing/cruising mags. from people trying to do the same. 99% went in the trash can.

The media choice today is video, and I suspect the success rate hasn't changed.

I'm not surprised by the Gofundme approach either. You still have to present something to get paid. I don't think you'll get very far by just asking for $ but if somebody works at it, and they're very good, it might work.

Then the viewers will say, "Say, I could do that, and sailaway,..."


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> First class videographer. Interestingly, for the quality, he has very few subscribers. About 14,000 vs hundreds of thousands for the SLV and Delos. I suppose the bikini or two accounts for some of it. However, I think the real difference is the display of the lifestyle and personalities. Dylan's seem more focused on the visual beauty and videography and isn't selling as well.


It is curious his lack audience compared to the rock stars of sailing youtubes. I can only think that the hundreds of thousands of viewers of SLV and Delos, are largely non-sailors.

I think you're right on a perceived lifestye: The nonsailing masses could see in their videos, an MO to escape and live the dream. Sailboats have always had that media lure. Throw in the sun, the sand, the bikinis. How hard can it be?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

TomMaine said:


> I should say, the media side of cruising. That's an old industry. That industry used to be primarily print. But things were the same: Cruisers and their audience (most of which wanted to cruise), were looking for ways to make $ while 'living the dream'.
> 
> There were the rock stars of the print era (Pardy's for instance) that made a go of it with articles and book sales. No doubt there was an avalanche of really bad articles sent to all the sailing/cruising mags. from people trying to do the same. 99% went in the trash can.
> 
> ...


Sure we live in the digital www age and the medium is no longer print. I began reading about cruising pre www and digital cameras, but more to learn technical requirements than to view travel logs which is probably what a lot of the content of these vlogs are. Nothing wrong with that... but I think a different sell.

This travel log by boat I believe is a new industry and enabled by digital media. It's different than the cruising books of the past I believe.

Sure many people want to have income as they go off the grid and this industry is a response to that and there is a market for it. I don't know how many would be paying for subscriptions or even that they are sold as subscriptions. The deal in this thread was asking the public to send "charity" to support a cruiser who then posts vlogs.... probably with the intent to fund his cruising or make a profit at it.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

This OP I don't think asked about Vlogs. He was interested in just plain old GoFundMe for a race he wants to do this summer but doesn't have the money for.

Somebody else suggested the Vlog option.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

I watch a lot of sailing stuff on youtube, old Syndey- Hobart races, Americas Cup etc. Can honestly say I've never watched any of these vlog things people are talking about. Just no interest in watching other people's lives. To be blunt I think it's a symptom of the "me" generation and could give a hairy rodents anus about them no matter how well done people claim they are. Just boring reality T.V. in my books which drove me to ditch cable.....


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

amwbox said:


> ...
> 
> For example, instead of a series of clips that shows the standing rigging being replaced in vague terms...maybe do something to explain the complete process in an interesting way...maybe explain how to calculate the righting moment so you know how to size the shrouds. Maybe some sort of animation, I don't know.


I agree totally with you entire post amwbox. That means that you must be an intelligent and charming person.:laugh

SV Delos did a great job showing how they got screwed by a rigging surveyor, then how they dealt with it. It shows the challenges that overcame to de-rig the boat, and even shows a tour of the plant that fabricated the new rigging. If you like that kind of thing, it's worth a few minutes of shuffling through their catalog of videos to find it.

Also, the best vlog that I've seen in this vein is HaveWindWillTravel. A woman shucks her career as an attorney, then takes her man on a full-on sailing experience, including buying and repairing the boat. There is a series of how-to videos and a series of boat tours discussing like/dislikes of various boats. She is in a bikini a lot of the time, but I don't get the impression that it is for click-bait; you'll see what I mean if you watch a few of their videos. They are not old salts that know all the tricks, but they are intelligent and curious and are dedicated to sharing what they are learning.


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## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)

A lot of the comments about the sailing videos - many of which I'm leery to watch because they seem so vacuous - are spot on. Keep Turning Left is the only one I've sent money to (one 5er, I think), because it's so much better done; heck, he's even got one video that is just him reading from and commenting on a sailing book.

Personally, I don't slight the OP for asking for money - it's worth a shot, and surely there are people out there too old to sail themselves and too old to do much with the fortunes they've accumulated over the years (while working instead of living, maybe?) that might enjoy sponsoring some young whippersnapper, provided he documents what he does.


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

So, to the OP.....Does that answer your question?


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

titustiger27 said:


> It's funny (not ha ha) the towing video is the only one I watched... that and the xmas one he made with several other vloggers in 2015
> 
> I don't dislike what I saw.. it was kind of interesting... but
> 
> ...




What I loved about Drake Paragon videos is you see him go through a whole range of emotions including making mistakes along his journeys. Starting out from his exuberance of finally leaving New York solo to the near fiasco of leaving too much sail up at night, to his good intention towing of the other disabled sailboat that ultimately damaged his boat in the process. Always a sobering reminder of the things that can go wrong when underway. I think we all have had our "this kind of sucks" days on the water. It's never always smooth sailing. S/V Delos do similar videos though they have more crew to help out when things happen. Also they have more people to shoot video. Personally I usually only watch these types of videos during winter time because I have my own "adventures" after my boat has been splashed for the season. Helps one to get through the winter and learn a thing or two sometimes and throw them a few bucks here and there for taken me along on the journey.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TomMaine said:


> It is curious his lack audience compared to the rock stars of sailing youtubes. I can only think that the hundreds of thousands of viewers of SLV and Delos, are largely non-sailors.
> 
> I think you're right on a perceived lifestye: The nonsailing masses could see in their videos, an MO to escape and live the dream. Sailboats have always had that media lure. Throw in the sun, the sand, the bikinis. How hard can it be?


Funny you say that. I know one Delos follower who is a non-sailor, with no plans to become one. Still, I find it hard to believe the audience is largely non-sailors.

On the other hand, there is little about Keep Turning Left that I find has much to do with sailing, dreamy or otherwise. It could certainly be an anomaly of the few I've watched, but they were more about the beauty of environmental shots. Little to do with the sailboat or sailing. That's the one I would think could be largely non-sailors.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

scotian.sailor said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'm wondering what people think of the use of crowdfunding to finance their sailing adventures. I have started to consider using something like gofundme to help offset some of my travel, food, gear costs, etc.. My biggest overall thing for this summer is some offshore racing on the West Coast (SoCal 300 and TransPac) and I'm from the East Coast.
> 
> Thoughts?


To get money from strangers you're either going to need a hook or a product.

If you're a one legged cancer survivor you probably could get some money through gofundme from kind hearted strangers figuring you've had enough hardship and deserved a break in life but otherwise you're probably SOL.

If you're going to make money off of Patreon/youtube you'll need to deliver a product that people are willing to pay for even though they can get it for free. I've sent small sums to a few vloggers and considering the umpteen hours of entertainment they've provided it was a real bargain.

-Hugh


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> This travel log by boat I believe is a new industry and enabled by digital media. It's different than the cruising books of the past I believe.


I think you have it there. There's an audience for travel to those areas, whether the viewer sails their own boat, or flies.

Travel vlogs are big(out there in the zillions), I've found a few that were pretty good.

In that way, they(the successful sailing vloggers) are brilliant: Nobody has been very successful at drawing non sailors into reading or viewing(and paying for), sailing media.

And they obviously appeal to their audience much more so than the bulk of sailing vloggers.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Funny you say that. I know one Delos follower who is a non-sailor, with no plans to become one. Still, I find it hard to believe the audience is largely non-sailors.
> 
> ** snip }.


I think one has to look at sailing vlogs, for the most part, as you would the travel channel.

The viewers don't always want to go to Bangkok, but they might still be travelers who are interested in various culture...and lifestyles. Plus maybe there are a the dinghy sailors like me, who like to think about living on a boat.

The same way I might look at a Burning Man video or photos. Not for or against the lifestyle, but interested in learning about it.

I noticed SV Kanola, um PreppyNomads.. make that Fun with the Pfeiffer's have steered away from being a sailing vlog to a family vlog because people would complain there wasn't enough sailing (is there ever enough!)


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

titustiger27 said:


> I think one has to look at sailing vlogs, for the most part, as you would the travel channel.
> 
> The viewers don't always want to go to Bangkok, but they might still be travelers who are interested in various culture...and lifestyles. Plus maybe there are a the dinghy sailors like me, who like to think about living on a boat.


Agreed.

I look at these commercial vlogs as the video version of most glossy sailing mags. They are appealing more to dreamers and the early planners more than actual doers. Makes sense since there are lot more dreamers than doers. Occasionally I've used vlogs as research for my own planning, but that can't generate sufficient audience numbers. They need the mass market of dreamers, just like the magazines, if they are going to make it pay.

I've got nothing against these vloggers. The financially successful ones have clearly found a way to make money doing what they love. Good for them. I skip through some of them when I'm bored, but none have held by attention for long. It's mostly entertainment.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> On the other hand, there is little about Keep Turning Left that I find has much to do with sailing, dreamy or otherwise. It could certainly be an anomaly of the few I've watched, but they were more about the beauty of environmental shots. Little to do with the sailboat or sailing. That's the one I would think could be largely non-sailors.


KTL is obviously an acquired taste.  My wife and I have watched all his episodes. She especially likes his travel and history dialogue. That's takes research work, which we appreciate.

But me, I love the sailing footage! His earlier episodes on inland waterways, the sailing of interesting boats (mostly smaller than we're used to) I find stunning. And I've corresponded with him quite a bit. We're both hopeless in our love of that.

Conversely, if you're looking for cruising tips and such, his stuff is pretty dismal. 

Most of his footage is in a 20' boat that is spare, to say the least. EU sailors sail farther on smaller boats than we do in the states.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

TomMaine said:


> EU sailors sail farther on smaller boats than we do in the states.


I think we'll see that change significantly over the next 10 or 20 years as North Americans start to feel the same real estate pressures as Europeans have felt for a very long time. As it stands right now sailing is a VERY consumption oriented hobby in NA. It's not sustainable IMO.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

As some have pointed out Vlogs are somewhat replacing the sailing magazine stories of the past. Though the magazines are still around too. The advantage of the VLogs is they are what we called in the broadcast business called "evergreen" meaning one could watch them anytime. Unlike magazines which usually get thrown out in the trash at some point. I would think some of better sailing Vlogs could pick up new viewers technically forever. No doubt they get their biggest bang from a newly released video from their Patreon subscribers. But, they may still pick up a few bucks from those poking around You Tube over the years via the YT ads. I come across new interesting video channels all the time. Not all are about sailing some are subjects like using various tools, fiberglass work, sewing etc... 

I was just thinking when one becomes a Patreon supporter of a Sailing Vlog. One technically becomes a "Producer" aka "money person". I wonder if their is some video production tax credit available like the Hollywood studios get? Asking for a friend. 

As far as Crowd Funding I think it is a long shot to try and raise funds unless one has a really compelling story to do what they want to do. Just saying "I want to do this but, I don't have the money so please give it to me so I can" just does not seem to cut it.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

titustiger27 said:


> I think one has to look at sailing vlogs, for the most part, as you would the travel channel.
> 
> The viewers don't always want to go to Bangkok, but they might still be travelers who are interested in various culture...and lifestyles. Plus maybe there are a the dinghy sailors like me, who like to think about living on a boat.


Yes and they can also be good for striking some ports and anchorages off of the list. Like the party island the S/V Delos crew visited in Thailand. The highlight of the evening concerned a woman and ping pong balls. I'll take a pass on that kind of entertainment.  Also being greeted in the morning by a fine layer of volcanic ash all over the deck after the wind shifted during the night while they anchored off a volcanic island. Another place I don't really need to see.


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## twoshoes (Aug 19, 2010)

mbianka said:


> Yes and they can also be good for striking some ports and anchorages off of the list. Like the party island the S/V Delos crew visited in Thailand. The highlight of the evening concerned a woman and ping pong balls. I'll take a pass on that kind of entertainment.


Um, and where is that exactly? I'm asking for uh, a friend.


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## oysterman23 (Jul 22, 2011)

damn fine work!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

twoshoes said:


> Um, and where is that exactly? I'm asking for uh, a friend.


Thailand somewhere in Phuket I believe:


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Arcb said:


> I think we'll see that change significantly over the next 10 or 20 years as North Americans start to feel the same real estate pressures as Europeans have felt for a very long time. As it stands right now sailing is a VERY consumption oriented hobby in NA. It's not sustainable IMO.


EU sailors do have a smaller footprint than NA sailors. Like their homes and cars, they have had to stretch resources a lot more than we have. Do you mean by 'real estate' pressures, that water access for people to sail is shrinking in NA?

Traveling around Europe, I'm surprised by the smaller boat sizes. And with sailing friends that live in the British Isles, I'm told how different it is for them to sail. It's just not as easy to do as it is for most NA sailors.

They take their sailing seriously! Some of that is due to more severe conditions for many of the coastal areas they sail out of. Harbors and anchorages are fewer for many and their coasts(that I have seen), exposed.

Walking the dogs a few years ago, I came on this sight in our harbor, 2 days before Thanksgiving.










A family of four that had just sailed across the North Atlantic from the Netherlands. They hung around for a few days and I was able to meet them. There was no fan fare, most locals didn't even know they were here. I didn't read about them in any sailing media. Their presence - by their doing - was un-sensational.

A bit of a language barrier (on my part - their english was pretty good), I learned they were headed South from Maine.

I thought I might be able to help them with knowledge of the southern coast. The Dad thanked me and said they were all set, "We've done this before".

Their two little girls had fun with the snow on the docks. They left us a snowman, with an antifreeze hat.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Crowdfunding for some things strikes me as very creepy. If you have a business idea and need capital to stand it up... there are many ways to get it. A new one is charity crowd funding with no specific dividend or repayment. The biz model is you get to view the content created... which I believe is offered for free. And probably so because people are accustomed to free you tube about anything and everything. Pay to view reminds me of porn... something I don't watch nor pay to watch.

People are generous especially when they have more than they need. On the other hand I am not going to give money to someone sailing around the world on an expensive yacht. That's not a charity cause. I might view some of the content... when bored. I rather be sailing or working on my own boat. thank you...


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

I might buy one or two sailing mags a year. Only if they have an article that I find usefull/informative, usually something to do with maintenance. Then I'll probably cut out the relative pages punch them and store them in a 3 ring binder.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

TomMaine said:


> EU sailors do have a smaller footprint than NA sailors. Like their homes and cars, they have had to stretch resources a lot more than we have.


This is an interesting observation Tom/Arcb. This is probably fodder for a whole different thread, but do you guys have actual data on this smaller footprint thing with Europeans? I'm not doubting you, but at first blush it seems surprising. Are boats generally smaller in Europe? Less equipment? If so, why? It can't just be a resource thing since big boat sailing/cruising is generally the domain of the relatively rich everywhere. Culture?


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

MikeOReilly said:


> This is an interesting observation Tom/Arcb. This is probably fodder for a whole different thread, but do you guys have actual data on this smaller footprint thing with Europeans? I'm not doubting you, but at first blush it seems surprising. Are boats generally smaller in Europe? Less equipment? If so, why? It can't just be a resource thing since big boat sailing/cruising is generally the domain of the relatively rich everywhere. Culture?


According to one website, the average male shoe size in the US is 9, compared to 9.5 in the UK and 10 in Canada. So it would seem that the Canadians have the larger footprint, followed by the UK, then the US, but well above the Chinese at size 8. :wink

That said, another website has the average US male shoe size at 10.5. That site didn't provide a EU size for comparison, though.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

fallard said:


> According to one website, the average male shoe size in the US is 9, compared to 9.5 in the UK and 10 in Canada. So it would seem that the Canadians have the larger footprint, followed by the UK, then the US, but well above the Chinese at size 8. :wink


Well, you know what they say about size of hands/feet and how that relates to other appendages :devil


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> This is an interesting observation Tom/Arcb. This is probably fodder for a whole different thread, but do you guys have actual data on this smaller footprint thing with Europeans? I'm not doubting you, but at first blush it seems surprising. Are boats generally smaller in Europe? Less equipment? If so, why? It can't just be a resource thing since big boat sailing/cruising is generally the domain of the relatively rich everywhere. Culture?


I don't have actual data to back it up, Mike. But by my observations, it seems obvious. Plus, as stated, EU sailing friends back that up. They have told me their boats are smaller than US boats. And they have done a lot of sailing, crossing oceans, even some fastnet races. One couple, good friends now, have stopped in Maine - twice - as they circled the Atlantic, twice, in a 32' Sadler. Pretty average boat for their home waters. In my home waters, the sailboats are bigger on average(I'm no better than anybody  )

It was only a few years ago, that the median US car mileage per gallon was about half that of EU cars(that data is available).

Only recently have there been some changes in our new car regs that has closed the gap - a bit (but they may be removed).

Lower fuel prices helps drive bigger boats, homes, cars, you name it. People in the EU have adjusted to their higher fuel costs, by my observations. We've enjoyed cheap fuel costs in comparison.

We're in cheap oil again(and have forgotten the last time we weren't).

We were in Ireland last year and toured a bit of the coast. Howth is a very popular sailing harbor on the east coast. This is a nice cruising area. The first thing I noticed is how sailboats outnumber power boats(fuel driven to some extent no doubt).

Then the sizes. These are some of the bigger boats(on average) than I've seen in European harbors. A 40'er is the upper end, and pretty rare. Most are mid to low 30's. And this harbor is on a bold coast with very little shelter nearby. Serious conditions for any boat.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

TomMaine said:


> I don't have actual data to back it up, Mike. But by my observations, it seems obvious. Plus, as stated, EU sailing friends back that up. They have told me their boats are smaller than US boats. And they have done a lot of sailing, crossing oceans, even some fastnet races. One couple, good friends now, have stopped in Maine - twice - as they circled the Atlantic, twice, in a 32' Sadler. Pretty average boat for their home waters. In my home waters, the sailboats are bigger on average(I'm no better than anybody  )


Nice pics Tom. Like I say, I'm not disputing the observation, just trying to understand why this would be the case. I can see fuel prices impacting power boat sized, and certainly car size, but I don't think most sailors buy their boats based on fuel efficiency. Are boats generally more pricey in Europe? Is there some other limiting factor, like canals/locks perhaps? Just seems interesting&#8230;



TomMaine said:


> It was only a few years ago, that the median US car mileage per gallon was about half that of EU cars(that data is available). &#8230; Lower fuel prices helps drive bigger boats, homes, cars, you name it. People in the EU have adjusted to their higher fuel costs, by my observations. We've enjoyed cheap fuel costs in comparison. &#8230; We're in cheap oil again(and have forgotten the last time we weren't).


So true. Vehicles are smaller and efficiency is way better in Europe/Asia than is the norm here. I'm always amused when someone brags about getting 25 or 30 mpg - by global standards outside of Canada/USA, this is terrible. We have been spoiled by cheap fuel prices forever. I recall noticing gasoline prices over $1/litre (~$3.80/US gallon) when I was travelling in the Europe, and that was over 20 years ago! Here in Canada people went ape-shyte when prices tipped over $1/l, and that was only a few years ago. In the USA, if it hits $4/gallon there is talk of revolution.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Mike, I definitely don't have any figures to support my theory that small boat cruising is more popular in the EU than NA, it's more of an observation. 

I think you've seen the impact of folks using 40' boats as week enders in the 1000 islands? There's no where to park.
How many petrol chemical resources are required to build one of these boats? What happens to all that plastic when they need to be disposed of? In order to keep up with the joneses, what's the current life span of marine electronics? It's horrible. 

I have observed a shift in younger folks in NA though. The popularity of adventure sailing seems to be taking off in a big way. Check out Hobbies current line up of boats, those are some small cruising boats even by European standards.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Arcb said:


> ...I think you've seen the impact of folks using 40' boats as week enders in the 1000 islands? There's no where to park.
> How many petrol chemical resources are required to build one of these boats? What happens to all that plastic when they need to be disposed of? In order to keep up with the joneses, what's the current life span of marine electronics? It's horrible.
> 
> I have observed a shift in younger folks in NA though. The popularity of adventure sailing seems to be taking off in a big way. Check out Hobbies current line up of boats, those are some small cruising boats even by European standards.


You don't have to convince me regarding the environmental impacts of BIG vs small, or going with less vs more. I'm a proponent of going with the _'the smallest and simplest boat you can live with.'_ Most people seem to approach question of houses, cars, boats, etc. from the perspective of getting _'the largest one I can afford.'_

Clearly there has been a growth trend in houses and boats here in NA over the last 40 years. Cars/trucks do fluctuate with fuel prices though. There may be a downward trend (finally) in all this stuff, which is a good thing.

I think the main reason younger folk are going smaller is simple economics; they are poorer than their parents and their parent's parents. This seems to be creating a culture that values smaller over larger - good thing I say.

&#8230; too bad the parents can't learn this lesson.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I know I'm preaching to the quire on this one 

I agree, economics is a huge driving factor.

We were boat shopping for our next boat today. My 35 has felt like serious over kill since we moved ashore a couple years ago.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

TomMaine said:


> I don't have actual data to back it up, Mike. But by my observations, it seems obvious. Plus, as stated, EU sailing friends back that up. They have told me their boats are smaller than US boats. And they have done a lot of sailing, crossing oceans, even some fastnet races. One couple, good friends now, have stopped in Maine - twice - as they circled the Atlantic, twice, in a 32' Sadler. Pretty average boat for their home waters. In my home waters, the sailboats are bigger on average(I'm no better than anybody  )


Reminds me of the book Blue Water Green Skipper by Stuart Woods. He was an ex-pat American working in Ireland who got the sailing bug in his late 30's. Went from a sailing dingy to entering a trans Atlantic solo race in like two years. Book opens with him trying to find the "Galway Sailing Club" he spends an afternoon looking for a shoreside building with a flagpole and docks. Until a bartender in a Pub he stopped at to ask for directions says _'well there is not really a clubhouse it's just a club see'_.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

fallard said:


> According to one website, the average male shoe size in the US is 9, compared to 9.5 in the UK and 10 in Canada. So it would seem that the Canadians have the larger footprint, followed by the UK, then the US, but well above the Chinese at size 8. :wink
> 
> That said, another website has the average US male shoe size at 10.5. That site didn't provide a EU size for comparison, though.


45 = 10.5, sort of. I wear 45. 45 I can buy over the internet, because Europeans are more factual... or consistent with the facts. I wear size 10 to size 11.5, depending on the brand


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

mbianka said:


> Reminds me of the book Blue Water Green Skipper by Stuart Woods. He was an ex-pat American working in Ireland who got the sailing bug in his late 30's. Went from a sailing dingy to entering a trans Atlantic solo race in like two years. Book opens with him trying to find the "Galway Sailing Club" he spends an afternoon looking for a shoreside building with a flagpole and docks. Until a bartender in a Pub he stopped at to ask for directions says _'well there is not really a clubhouse it's just a club see'_.


Off topic, but did you like the book? I felt it was so so.

It really felt like the 1968 playboy magazine way of thinking.

for so many reasons


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Tanski said:


> I might buy one or two sailing mags a year. Only if they have an article that I find usefull/informative, usually something to do with maintenance. Then I'll probably cut out the relative pages punch them and store them in a 3 ring binder.


How many magazines would you take off the shelf if they were free, but had an insert that asked you to join their patreon, but you would still get the magazine for free regardless if you became a patron?

irateraft:


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

No more, don't find 99% of whats in them interesting. Don't read most of the content of the ones I do buy. They just end up in the recycle bin. Haven't seen a boat review I'd bother reading in years, not interested in cats or +35 foot boats. Find the gear reviews pointless. Never seen one where the say something is junk and not worth buying. For the most part it's the same with professional internet reviews, hard to trash something a manufacturer gave you for free......
For me it's not about cost it's about content.
It's not just sailing mags, same with music/recording ones and RC planes, content is mostly garbage. Adds and sponsored reviews.
Last sailing mag I bought had a good article about replacing a holding tank....thought it was worth the 7$ or so.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

I see that. I don't have as much time (internet), but most of the cycling magazines fit into that category

I've had clashes with cycling magazines over that very issue --- favorable reviews about high price bicycles that just happen to be advertising that month.

and regardless how 'honest’ the review is, it was always a bike out of my price range.

I have a feeling that is why the sailing vlogs have reached the level of popularity they have. Most of them are about 20-year-old boats, focus on repairing the boat and the sailing..

not the spending on a new boat


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Tanski said:


> No more, don't find 99% of whats in them interesting. Don't read most of the content of the ones I do buy. They just end up in the recycle bin. Haven't seen a boat review I'd bother reading in years, not interested in cats or +35 foot boats. Find the gear reviews pointless. Never seen one where the say something is junk and not worth buying. For the most part it's the same with professional internet reviews, hard to trash something a manufacturer gave you for free......
> For me it's not about cost it's about content.
> It's not just sailing mags, same with music/recording ones and RC planes, content is mostly garbage. Adds and sponsored reviews.
> Last sailing mag I bought had a good article about replacing a holding tank....thought it was worth the 7$ or so.


I totally agree with this sentiment. I also have never read a bad review by a professional, including reviews by folks respected in the marine world about junky boats. The authors just wouldn't have jobs for long if they told it like it is. Some exceptions to this are databases like sailquest and bluewaterboats.org, where the boats are compared to other boats.

My go to resource when boat shopping (which I've been doing a lot of recently) is YouTube. There are some truths that are just too hard for amateurs to hide from a camera.

For example, if there are 20 YouTube videos on a given design, and not one of them is shot in over 10 knots if wind, then it's a fair bet the boats are crap boats in heavy air (and not for me).

Or if there are 20 vids about a boat and they are all shot in heavy airs and the boats look to be standing still, you might get some insight into their speed.

I find there is so much that can be learned about boats by how YouTubers use those boats.

I don't tend to watch the big YouTube channels unless they are doing something cool like Paragon, Erik Anderea (or however you spell it) and several of the European small boat sailors who seem to be able to accomplish some pretty impressive things in tiny boats that are laughed at by yachties (and therefore I like).


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

titustiger27 said:


> Off topic, but did you like the book? I felt it was so so.
> 
> It really felt like the 1968 playboy magazine way of thinking.
> 
> for so many reasons


I agree. Had some nice tidbits about the race and some of the decisions as to which courses one might take. Also about how difficult it was to get sponsors. Crowdfunding was not an option in those days. Also interesting how the equipment failed on various tryouts and legs. But, it does tend to confirm what Maine Sail was mentioning about European boats tending to be smaller than most American boats. I think the boat he had built for the race was around 27 feet as I recall. IMO the guy was pretty lucky to have made it. I'm not sure I'd have trusted a boat that had such a leaky keel upon the first splash and tryout. Also seemed like he was not that much of a self sufficient sailor. Relying much more on others to fix things.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

mbianka said:


> I agree. Had some nice tidbits about the race and some of the decisions as to which courses one might take. Also about how difficult it was to get sponsors. Crowdfunding was not an option in those days. Also interesting how the equipment failed on various tryouts and legs. But, it does tend to confirm what Maine Sail was mentioning about European boats tending to be smaller than most American boats. I think the boat he had built for the race was around 27 feet as I recall. IMO the guy was pretty lucky to have made it. I'm not sure I'd have trusted a boat that had such a leaky keel upon the first splash and tryout. Also seemed like he was not that much of a self sufficient sailor. Relying much more on others to fix things.


The equipment thing is what surprised me the most.. but it reminded me of Stanley Paris who has tried to circumnavigate twice, each time (in a basically new boat) stopped because of equipment failure

I know things fail, but right from the manufacturer?


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

titustiger27 said:


> How many magazines would you take off the shelf if they were free, but had an insert that asked you to join their patreon, but you would still get the magazine for free regardless if you became a patron?
> 
> irateraft:


Good question. Also, anyone subscribing to any of the sailing mags, electronically?

If they had content I was interested in, I would subscribe electronically instead of via the post.

Outside of a few magazines, the paper and image quality, has become so dismal to me, that the electronic version is more appealing. For an example, I subscribe electronically to the New York Times. Their image quality is so bad in print I much prefer their electronic version.

But the electronic versions by and large, have been slow to catch on. Maybe they need to sell a cheaper electronic version to get interest? I'm glad I'm not in the publishing business right now.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

TomMaine said:


> ** snip }
> 
> But the electronic versions by and large, have been slow to catch on. Maybe they need to sell a cheaper electronic version to get interest? I'm glad I'm not in the publishing business right now.


I think that the way publishing has approached electronic media has been a disservice to them.

Most of my experience has been with book...

First off, the publishers do everything they can do not to share. And then to limit ownership. If you bought a paper book or a magazine, you likely passed it off to a friend. Digital publishers do all they can to make the content device specific, so you can't share.

But when it comes to the actual content there is a tendency to imitate the previous paper version

Why not have a digital repair magazine/book that not just shows good quality pictures, but also a couple video snippets.

---
And for me... I haven't been into digital much (even though I have a nook and an iPad) because I have at least 50 books I want to read... hard copies that I bought for 75¢ of half.com. I also have 10 or so sailing pdfs, but when I read on the computer (and iPad) it is news.

At the end of the day, my reading is a book.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

There has been a massive growth in “free” newspapers, so not exactly the “free but donate to us” model, but pretty close. The revenue for consumer print publications has always been approx. 10% to 15% subscription income and 85% to 90% ad income. Many publications went to “free” b/c they realized they could bump up their circulation, thereby charge more for ads, even while saying goodbye to subscription income. This is why the decline in ad sales have been so devastating to the print media.

Early on the newspapers in particular made a devastating error as they switched to online: they gave it all away for free. They chased a model of banner ads and clicks which they were told (by the mystical Internet mavens of the early 21st century) that the Internet was supposed to be “free,” and the money would follow the clickers. Bahhh said I; this is stupid … and so it turned out to be.

Publications taught people content is “free.” As anyone in business knows, once you give something away, it is hard to start charging for it later. Indeed, a whole ethos still pervades the Internet that I have a right to all this content, and I should NOT be charged for it. The rise of the online pirate culture is an outcome.

Of course, caught in the death spiral of decreasing revenue, publications owners took the short term route and cut costs. Staff were cut, editors and designers were cut, and freelance budgets were cut (freelancers write the vast majority of content in consumer magazines, and making up a lot of the non-news content in newspapers). All this resulted in crappier content, which just furthers the spiral…

It’s little wonder these mass publications don’t hold the interest of those who know something about the subject.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

With so many things, I feel we live in a world where 'the greater good' is no longer understood or even attempted to be achieved

As Mike pointed out, so many things have been cut from newspapers.. magazines and even books.

Profit drives things, but it has come to big profit drives things. Because of that small town papers are fading away. And so is most print media of most sizes. The irony, much all news comes from print. I haven't seen recent numbers, but most stories one sees in the visual media came from a print story. 

If print media dries up, there will not only be fewer stories but with smaller news staffs, the news that comes from the print media might not have all the necessary fact checking.

From what I have seen, the free papers or 'shoppers' are not exactly NEWSpapers. They may have reporters, but little investigation. And the line between advertising and editorial is very blurred for a shopper.

There are two weekly papers that cover where I live. There once was a daily paper, that really didn't cover the area, but was the most read paper, but the paper decided it wasn't worth paying someone to deliver it.

One of the weeklies is free and covers very little of my immediate area. Instead, it like all the sister papers have merged into (kind of) one, with a different banner at the top. The other, paid, is much better, but depends on stories by community members, not reporters

With digital, what has surprised me, that news 'papers' and magazines haven't become demographic entities. 

If google can show me ads from my searches and websites visited (albeit they aren't as efficient as people think they are)

Why couldn't they produce a digital magazine for me, with stories and ads they know I am interested in. Paid for by the advertising... I wouldn't want this, but they could have articles with product placement, that are e-mailed to me.


PS/edit
when the shoppers go free, but don't really give people a reason to read the paper, people don't read the paper. It takes a bit, but eventually, the advertisers understand: no matter how big the circulation is, readership is what they really want


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

TomMaine said:


> Good question. Also, anyone subscribing to any of the sailing mags, electronically?
> 
> If they had content I was interested in, I would subscribe electronically instead of via the post.
> 
> ...


I have not subscribed to any magazines in years actually decades. Though I still have a bunch of Ocean Navigator, Cruising Worlds and a few others from the nineties in piles in the house. I do receive the Boat U.S. magazine and their Insurance magazine only because they send it for free. I have from time to time gone through some of the old magazines and cut out articles (mostly maintenance based) I thought to be of use. This with the thought I would scan them into files and throw the papers away. Somehow I have not yet found time to go beyond clipping stage. Even there I have not looked at them in many months or years. So this may be a futile exercise.  As for electronic subscriptions I doubt I would find the time to read them anymore than I found time to read the paper versions. IMO Google searches and other online sources have transformed how we get information making older forms rather archaic.


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