# Dumb Question....Whats a #1 Genoa?



## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

OK...so I keep hearing about sails..."I put the #3 up..", and etc... Well My 135 Genoa is BEAT UP...Its brittle and I have patched it about 8 times in the last 6 months....so I am just about the pull the trigger on an Ullman CAL laminate 135 . I have been really cleaning the boat inside and out since I moved into a slip 2 weeks ago, and today I grabbed those old sail bags under the V Berth...One was a Spinnaker...nice. It was slightly damp on the bottom so I moved it to dry. The other said "North Sails Santana 30 #1 Genoa" on it and my hull number...Took the sail out and it was like NEW. Perfectly folded and tucked away. The sail material felt perfect, #6 foil for the furled, windows and tell tales...even boat numbers on it from what I can tell...Going to take it the the North loft wednesday and then put it up if its not just thrashed elsewhere that I couldn't see. The docs I got with the boat have a drawing of the 3 headsails. The 135 says " 37 - 35' 8" - 17" 6" " The #1 Genoa says "37' - 33' 6" - 18' 6" " and then 150 "37' - 35' 8" - 19' 9" ". From these numbers the #1 is maybe a 110 or 120?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Try a 155!

Most folks the #1 is the BIGGEST sail they can put on, ie first out of the bag, then as the # goes higher, the smaller the jib. A 135 would be a 2 possibly a 3 for most folks.

You might also see folks refer to a light #1 vs a heavy. A Lite 1 would be a lighter cloth 155, a heavy #1 a 150 but for wind speeds in the say 10-20 range vs lite in the 0-10 knot range. A #3 or 4 would be a 110, #5 typically a storm jib.

Of those sails, your 150 is the largest acutally, the 37 measure is the luff, the 2nd number the leach, and last number the LP of the sail, so the bigger the LP, the more sq ft it has usually.

Marty


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

Ok...so whats the deal with the smaller leach on the 2nd sail?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

That one might be more of a cruiser sail, ie one with a on purpose higher cut clew so you can see under it better. My 140 is this way ie clew is about the top of the lifelines vs the 155 is more of a deck sweeper. The 140 is what I use with just spouse and I, or daysails. where as teh 155 gets pulled out to race etc. My 130 drifter also has been cut a bit high to help in really light winds. Then again, that sail is made from 3oz spin cloth.

Marty


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Newport - when three measurements are given, usually they are talking about Luff, leech and foot. What you need is "Luff Perpendicular" or "LP". This is a measurement from the clew (where the leech and foot intersect) to where it intersects the luff at a right angle (the “perpendicular” part). You want to divide this number by your boat’s “J” dimension. (distance from a right angle on the mast to the base of the headstay – look this one up for your boat) the resulting number is expressed as a percentage. You can calculate LP from the three dimensions by a liberal use of trigonometry, but I’d just take the sails to a grassy area and use a tape measure.

Up here in NorCal the sizes typically are as follows; #1’s usually are 140-150% genoas, #2 120-140%, #3 110-120%, #4 90-110% I don’t think there is a hard and fast rule on this. for example, I’m constrained by Local PHRF to a largest headsail of 130%, which everybody calls a #2, my 110% Lapper is a #3 and my 95% blade is called a #4.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

a number 1 genoa may be a 150%, and a number 2 genoa, 125%. Jibs are also defined by the same measure, with overlaps of 100% or less. Under Performance Handicap Racing Fleet rules most boats are allowed 155% genoas without a penalty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoa_(sail)

Headsails type and number:

Sailing School Headsails - No. 2 Genoa, Storm Jib and Riding Sail

Occasionally a price list may show a choice of areas for the No. 1 genoa, a circumstance which possibly can cause confusion. *It should be understood that the term "No. 1 genoa" is nonspecific as to size. It denotes the largest genoa on the boat, whatever size that may be. (The next step down in size becomes the No. 2 and so forth.) *The size of the No. 1 is based on factors such as the weather conditions in which the boat is to be sailed, the size of her rig, the applicable rating rule, if any, the owner's requirements, etc. Obviously, the size of the No. 1 is one of the factors involved in picking the size of the No. 2. For instance, if the chosen No. 1 has an LP of 150%, an appropriate No. 2 might well be 135%. On the other hand, some older boats are short rigged by today's standards and would do better with a 170% No. 1. In that case a more appropriate size for the No. 2 would be about 150%.
At the level of the No. 3 genoa, the variations in size tend to become minimal. In almost all cases, a good No. 3 is a full length luff sail with an LP in the 100% range. This sail is a real work horse in the inventory and is usually added before a No. 2.

Genoas and Other Jibs - UK-Halsey's Encyclopedia Of Sails

Regards

Paulo


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Before you put the coin into a laminate headsail, how do you plan to use the boat?

If you're going to do any racing, I can see spending the money for a laminate. If you're strictly cruising and daysailing, then perhaps a good Dacron would be a better choice. It will last a lot longer, and cost less.

Caveat:

When I say "last longer", I mean that the failure mode of Dacron sails is a gradual loss of shape over a long period of time, and perhaps tearing at the very end. We're talking a lifespan of anywhere from 5-15 years depending on how the sail is used and cared for.

The failure mode of laminate sails is often "total, catastrophic explosion". They hold their shape perfectly, and then "fail". Lifespan: 3-8 years, depending on use and care.

Around the light air of the Chesapeake Bay, that #1 genoa that you have would be the sail of choice much of the time. My impression is that you have much more reliable, stronger winds, and that your #2 (130%) is the most common sail to use.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Did not see the Ullman CAL laminate part of original post. That is a nice sail. My 140 is made of that material, my cost was barely 10% more than an equal upper end dacron from most lofts. FX I could have been 25-50% less for a couple of those, BUT, those were double stiched vs triple, two reefs............My 140 was about 1600 IIRC. Much stronger puller etc than a new dacron. Not sure that it will explode in the end per say either based on how it is made etc.

Chuck at the San Diego loft seems to sell a bunch of these to folks.

marty


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

Thx for the info on the genoa. Now it all makes sense! About the sail. It's made for a furler so it's actually nicer to reef it than a Dacron sail. More durable and less susceptible to UV damage. Yes powers up faster and I'm told has a lifespan more on the 8-10 year range than 3-5. My current Dacron sail has been on the boat at least 10 years. It's beat and I wish I had been told to replace it when I bought the boat. Not gonna race but this is designed as a "cruising laminate".


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Great thread. Thanks for the info fellas.


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Newport -

The videos for the contest are coming in from as far away as OZ and from the usual suspects (Harbor 20s, Lidos, Sabots, S20s, S22s) but no Santana 30s


Rules are trivial ' less than 2 minutes ' and include a 'WD Schock boat'


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

If you REALLY want to get confused about this, look up a design analysis of an old RORC boat like Outlaw - they were cutter rigged with a small IOR size main and about 15 or 20 "standard" sails specified for the foretriangle. 

The drawings have so many sails drawn that it's hard to even follow the lines of each one. It really got silly at the end of that rule with different sail combinations for what must have been every 5 knots of windspeed and/or 10 degrees of sailing angle.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

I think "No. 1 genoa" means a headsail that causes more heeling and is more likely to get caught on shrouds during a tack.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

wds123 said:


> newport -
> 
> the videos for the contest are coming in from as far away as oz and from the usual suspects (harbor 20s, lidos, sabots, s20s, s22s) but no santana 30s
> 
> rules are trivial ' less than 2 minutes ' and include a 'wd schock boat'


im on it!!!!


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

AdamLein said:


> I think "No. 1 genoa" means a headsail that causes more heeling and is more likely to get caught on shrouds during a tack.


Made me laugh! I agree....


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Great thread. Thanks for the info fellas.


I second that remark!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I can say talking to one person that furled his CAL. He HAD a 135-140 dacron, went to a CAL 155, and it furled TIGHTER than the old dacron. Last I talked with him about February, he was still happy with it etc etc. 

I have to admit, doing more racing than cruising per say, mine sits rolled in a bag most of the time. For what little extra it was, it has been worth it. When I have some funds, the North Nor-Lam 110 will be replace with this as will hopefully get an 85% or there abouts of my fortriangle jib for tween the 110 and storm jib I have. That should get me into the upper 30-low 40 range without too many issues. I may very well do my main with it instead of a string style, or may go inbetween with a GPL style for a bit more $ than the CAL, but less than a fiberpath.

Marty


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