# Composting Head-a years review



## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Authored by the Latrine's Queen of S/V Tango.. 

"For all those composting heads users.....after a number of experiments trying to 
reduce the urine smell from the liquids container of our AirHead I have found what I 
think solves that nose curling aroma when it is time to empty. 
We tried white vinegar...,.i would give that a score of 2 out of 5
Tried 409 non bleach spray... I would give that a score if 3.5 out of 5. 
The winner is that I spray my empty liquids tank with 409 them add about a tablespoon of 
OxiClean to the container. I swish this mixture around in the jug and put the jug in 
place for use. This removes any stains in the jug and also lowers the â€œstinkâ€� factor 
to almost zero. 
Give it a try and see if you agree. 
Merry Christmas and a Happy Composting New Year!"


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## KayakerChuck (May 4, 2017)

Thanks! 

I"m just starting to build a composting head. I would have rather bought, but space constraints on a little O'day 22 are kinda extreme.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Kinda partial to cherry flavoured urinal pucks. Available at most bus station washrooms.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

My urine tank smells when I take it out to dump it. There is no smell when it is in place.

I initially tried vinegar and sugar. No difference. Haven’t tried this 409 spray (whatever that is), but my current solution seems obvious and simple to me: I cap the tank right away when I take it out for disposal. 

Cap on: no-stink. Cap off: stink.

Smells while dumping … doesn’t seem like a big deal to me.


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## slap (Mar 13, 2008)

Capt Len said:


> Kinda partial to cherry flavoured urinal pucks. Available at most bus station washrooms.


I'm afraid to ask how you know that they are cherry flavored.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

The use of sugar as recommended by AirHead on page 6 of the users manual didn't work?

Most would be using OdorBan or another deodorizer specifically for preventing urine odors such as Malador, BioBlue, Walex, etc.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Capt Len said:


> Kinda partial to cherry flavoured urinal pucks. Available at most bus station washrooms.


I'm not going to judge you on the stealing aspect, but I'm definitely judging you on the reaching in and taking one aspect.

I share slap's curiosity as to the flavoring.

Mark


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Need to disinfect the urine pot or the bacterial colonies growing on the walls will generate stink. Bleach rinse with cap on when empty should do the trick. Don’t dump the bleach just use it as is.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I wouldn’t be surprised that one’s own diet and hydration level affects this too. 

Whatever one does, I’m quite opposed to using chemicals in any waste holding container. Our waste is biodegradable, until we make it otherwise.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Bleach is very biodegradable, forming no harmful residuals whatsoever.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

krisscross said:


> Bleach is very biodegradable, forming no harmful residuals whatsoever.


As are most of the Enzymatic deodorizers and cleaners.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I’m good with the enzymes, just not the nuclear stuff. Chlorine is too corrosive, but I’ve heard the argument that is immediately degrades in salt water.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm good with the enzymes, just not the nuclear stuff. Chlorine is too corrosive, but I've heard the argument that is immediately degrades in salt water.


As long as its chlorine and not chloramine its OK however the formaldehyde based ones you should stay away from.

I use the enzymes in my RV holding tanks and they work pretty good even in the grey water tanks which many times from food waste rinsed from the dishes or cookware can stink worse than the black tank if left untreated.

On the OdoBan I should add that caution should be observed since that even though its a mild ammonium chloride solution, it will cause permanent eye damage if you get it in your eyes however its (ammonium chloride based disinfectants) the standard for disinfecting hospitals, restrooms, etc all over.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I love my Vacuflush!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

eherlihy said:


> I love my Vacuflush!


Proving all engineering problems can be solved with money.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I like my cheap Jabsco manual head, hold taking tank, macerator/pump out system. There’s no odor and the only maintenance is to change to joker valve and manual pump once a year, the marcerator every couple of years, and flush a little add acid once in a while.


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## jeremiahblatz3 (Jul 3, 2018)

Don0190 said:


> flush a little add acid once in a while.


Like when the cosaties show up?


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

jeremiahblatz3 said:


> Like when the cosaties show up?


:grin


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I still like my composter. No odour, except when dumping the pee bucket. And no maintenance required. Does cost a bit more than your Jabsco though Don :wink.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

MikeOReilly said:


> I still like my composter. No odour, except when dumping the pee bucket. And no maintenance required. Does cost a bit more than your Jabsco though Don :wink.


And I don't cart stinky pee ashore


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> And I don't cart stinky pee ashore


Who carts stinky pee ashore? 

Not I :devil


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> No odour, except when dumping the pee bucket.





MikeOReilly said:


> Who carts stinky pee ashore?
> 
> Not I :devil


And these posts 1 hour apart.

Alcohol?
Alzheimers?
Both??????????????????

:grin :grin :grin :grin


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

While I understand the use of a composter in certain circumstances, I don't fully understand the attraction. A pee bucket is a holding tank. Stink and all, if not properly maintained, just like a traditional holding tank. It also retains the burden of no discharge zones and shore disposal, although, many/most users confess to flaunting this law.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> While I understand the use of a composter in certain circumstances, I don't fully understand the attraction. A pee bucket is a holding tank. Stink and all, if not properly maintained, just like a traditional holding tank. It also retains the burden of no discharge zones and shore disposal, although, many/most users confess to flaunting this law.


On our C-Head the holding tank is a 1 gallon milk jug, so if there's an odor throw it away and replace. Betcha can't replace your built in holding tank in 5 seconds at a cost of 89 cents!


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> While I understand the use of a composter in certain circumstances, I don't fully understand the attraction. A pee bucket is a holding tank. Stink and all, if not properly maintained, just like a traditional holding tank. It also retains the burden of no discharge zones and shore disposal, although, many/most users confess to flaunting this law.


Uses no water for flushing and eliminates a 60 to 100 gallon holding tank so potentially half a ton of liquids sloshing around in your boat plus the waste cassettes are small enough that you can put to shore anywhere that has facilities that can accommodate the contents without having to find a marina with a pump out at the dock. No leaky blue water connections or tanks to fail and if the composter fails you can take the old one out, toss it in the dumpster and install a new one in an hour while it may take days to disassemble your boat far enough to replace a black tank and then you still have to put the boat back together. If your disabled and can't get to the pump out station for a while a remote pump out transferring to honey tanks is a whole lot more misery and money than taking the cassettes in the dinghy to the nearest facility that can handle them. Also eliminates the need for a thru-hull.

For RV'rs if you've ever had or seen a dump hose or one of its connections fail the composter can in a heartbeat become very attractive especially if your in the splash zone.

The potential for much lower environmental impact can make you feel like a Do Good-er (this is probably the biggest attraction) even if you do flaunt some of the restrictions.

How many here have pee'd over the side (which is less socially acceptable than peeing in a bottle from an obscure location on the boat and then pouring it over the side) in an area they never would think of pulling the tank dump in?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> And these posts 1 hour apart.
> 
> Alcohol?
> Alzheimers?
> ...


Alcohol is always involved in my evening posts , but you gotta read more carefully my friend. I said I didn't cart the pee bucket ashore. Still gets dumped, just not on shore.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> While I understand the use of a composter in certain circumstances, I don't fully understand the attraction. A pee bucket is a holding tank. Stink and all, if not properly maintained, just like a traditional holding tank. It also retains the burden of no discharge zones and shore disposal, although, many/most users confess to flaunting this law.


The attractions are many - as I've enunciated many times:


Repurposing of huge space otherwise occupied by holding tank and plumbing.

Much simpler and easier to maintain.

Greatly reduced risk of a nasty accident on board.

Safer because no thruhulls are required. Fewer holes in the boat is a good thing.

Cruising not limited by size of holding tank. No need to chase around, looking for a pump out facility.

Cost savings over time - I never pay for another pump out.

BTW, as I said, there is no urine smell coming from the head while it is in operation. This is due to the positive pressure of the vent system. The only time I smell the pee bucket is the brief seconds during actual dumping. I don't see the big deal in this, but everyone is different.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

May I add: one less potential fault or possible citation from the 'Potty Police'.. 😉


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

To each their own. There is no blue water in my holding tank. It's a false solution to odor anyway. No chemicals needed in a properly ventilated holding tank. My system works just fine, because I know how to use it. Most think it's just like a household toilet and it's not, which is why so many stink. It needs the hoses cleared with clear chase water and good ventilation. It's stupid simple, once you know.

Our macerating electric head is substantially easier for a guest to use and, personally, I find separate bins for separate products to be useful only when absolutely necessary. If I was in a location that was entirely NDZ, such as the Great Lakes or Chessy and did not have good access to pumpouts, I see the attraction. Little choice. For us, we're offshore almost every weekend and the pumpout is at the end of our dock. No way I would find it easier to carry pee and poo to shore.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I was going to counter a post, but then it occurred to me that I don't really care what type of head people have on THEIR boat. They can crap and pee into a plastic bag or in the bilge if that rocks their world. My standard type system isn't any problem and has been 99% reliable (and I have a spare I don't even use use so might as call it 198%). I wish all my boat systems were as easy and cheap to use and maintain (only thing that's better are those $500 worth of golf cart batteries).

I wonder why all Island Packets don't come with composting heads??? I mean there's 2 examples of things with cult like followings :devil:winkirateraft::kiss:batter:chainsaw:gunner:gunner

BTW - I've never peed in the cockpit, over the rail, into a bucket etc. You people are just savages!


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Porches were first invented for a nice station to pee from.
Fact


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Then there is this:

"Sometimes you just have to pee in the sink."

― Charles Bukowski


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

mbianka said:


> Then there is this:
> 
> "Sometimes you just have to pee in the sink."
> 
> ― Charles Bukowski


I dont remember when i have laughed so hard.
Great post, really!


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

mbianka said:


> Then there is this:
> 
> "Sometimes you just have to pee in the sink."
> 
> ― Charles Bukowski


Oh dear&#8230; and the really scary part is that he says he has 5000 subscribers. Now that is a sad statement on humanity.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

If he ran for office....look out...


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

mbianka said:


> Then there is this:
> 
> "Sometimes you just have to pee in the sink."
> 
> ― Charles Bukowski


WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:crying:crying :gunner


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

MikeOReilly said:


> Oh dear&#8230; and the really scary part is that he says he has 5000 subscribers. Now that is a sad statement on humanity.


That's how social movements start!


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> And these posts 1 hour apart.
> 
> Alcohol?
> Alzheimers?
> ...


well he did say there was no stink when the cap is on. Likely the cap is on when carting it, so I think it is still accurate.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

SeaStar58 said:


> plus the waste cassettes are small enough that you can put to shore anywhere that has facilities that can accommodate the contents


What is a waste cassette and what facilities do you look for?

Did you or any guest ever have a bout of diarrhea and did that break the system?

Sorry about the personal questions but inquiring minds want to know.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

davidpm said:


> What is a waste cassette and what facilities do you look for?
> 
> Did you or any guest ever have a bout of diarrhea and did that break the system?
> 
> Sorry about the personal questions but inquiring minds want to know.


Don't have one on my 15 foot picnic boat however you can lookup the composting head FAQ's or User Groups where they have that all covered in great detail. My wife worked for a manufacturer of one of the larger systems which could be emptied with your bare hands as the compost was completely dry once the process was complete and was the consistency of Milorganite lawn fertilizer.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

SeaStar58 said:


> Don't have one on my 15 foot picnic boat however you can lookup the composting head FAQ's or User Groups where they have that all covered in great detail. My wife worked for a manufacturer of one of the larger systems which could be emptied with your bare hands as the compost was completely dry once the process was complete and was the consistency of Milorganite lawn fertilizer.


Yes thanks, I have seen those mfr reports but I was mostly interested in a real users report.

As for the concept of "process complete," I have some questions. If I use the head the first through the 15th and take the cassette in on the 16th my deposit of the 15th hasn't had much time.

I think I know of the options I'm just interested in knowing what one user's actual usage is like.

Good point though it has been a while I should take another run at the mfr pages.

I just reread the airhead website and they recommend seasonal users empty in the spring.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

User forums dedicated to those products are usually the best resource.

Abby Rockefeller has the system made by the company my wife worked in her home and loves it. Guests who visit her, sit in her beautiful gardens, etc have no idea that the toilets are composter's and that the gardens are watered in part by the toilet systems processing of urine and fertilized by the compost from the toilets until she tells them.

The AirHead for example is supposed to be let sit connected to the system for two weeks after last use before removing the solids tank for emptying and live aboards may opt for multiple tanks so that in high use situations they can close its lid before removing it and let it finish processing for three months before emptying it putting an empty tank prepared with bedding material in its place while the full tank is completing its cycle (so yes you will need a place to store the additional compost bins if you use this method).

Part of the flushing cycle for solids use is to turn the agitator crank at least 1/2 turn (more if necessary) to bury/mix solids into the compost so last use will not be sitting exposed on top. From the users manual its not anywhere close to as bad as changing an infants diaper and dealing with the diaper pail.

The AirHead Manual is available on-line and while it appears to have some details scattered about in places will give you the general idea.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/740895/Airhead-Composting-Toilet.html?page=4#manual


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

davidpm said:


> What is a waste cassette and what facilities do you look for?
> 
> Did you or any guest ever have a bout of diarrhea and did that break the system?
> 
> Sorry about the personal questions but inquiring minds want to know.


Europe (especially England on the narrow boats) has a lot of stations cassette toilets. I have read of some RVs that use them, but have not heard the term used with composting heads, at least not separating composers. They are really just portapoties that are permanently installed.






Many marinas I have had signs that specifically say not to empty portapoties into the toilets.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I’ve owned a Nature’s Head for going on a decade now. NH and Air Head are essentially the same thing, with a few minor differences in design and function. 

We are two people, full time use for about 1/2 of each year. We tend to get about a month (4-6 weeks) of usage between emptying the main tank. When it’s time to dump, the end product looks, smells and feels like good quality potting soil. As seastar says, the new deposits are quickly mixed into the bedding material. It is not offensive, as long as the system has been working as designed. 

That said, this end product is definitely not fully composted; especially for those of us where it is in continual use. It’s likely the initial deposits are well on their way to being composted, but composting takes more time than continual users allow. It is possible to dump into a secondary container for further composting, but I don’t know of any full time cruisers who do this. To me, it defeats one of the major benefits of these heads: space savings.

These small separator heads most important function is not really composting; it is desiccating. Drying and mixing the feces material greatly shrinks it, and renders it inoffensive (but not composted). This allows a small container to last a long time.

I’ve never heard of a “cassette” style head in connection with a composter. I thought they were essentially fancy portapotties which sealed off the excrement, making it easier to dump them. But there is no composting or desiccating going on. There are also heads which use bags to do the same thing (wag bags I think they’re called).

… Ah, I see miatapaul beat me to this. Thank miatapaul.


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## Davil (Oct 9, 2017)

aa3jy said:


> Authored by the Latrine's Queen of S/V Tango..
> 
> "For all those composting heads users.....after a number of experiments trying to
> reduce the urine smell from the liquids container of our AirHead I have found what I
> ...


==================================================================

After 1 year of using my new composting head found the urine "situation" to be the more aggravating for me, both underways having to carry the container to empty overboard (double-checking to be on the leeward side as well as when at anchor/mooring.
This season trying a new approach, plumbed the urine container thru a whale pump out using a thru-hull.
In theory, should work, however between theory and real-life........
time will tell.


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## Davil (Oct 9, 2017)

Davil said:


> ==================================================================
> 
> After 1 year of using my new composting head found the urine "situation" to be the more aggravating for me, both underways having to carry the container to empty overboard (double-checking to be on the leeward side as well as when at anchor/mooring.
> This season trying a new approach, plumbed the urine container thru a whale pump out using a thru-hull.
> ...


==================================================================
hand pump


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I've heard of others doing similar things. No reason it can't work. 

Curious... which head do you have, and how do you plan to run the hose? How will it enter the urine tank?


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## Davil (Oct 9, 2017)

MikeOReilly said:


> I've heard of others doing similar things. No reason it can't work.
> 
> Curious... which head do you have, and how do you plan to run the hose? How will it enter the urine tank?


=====================================================
Hi Mike

Nature's Head, same as yours.
going over UPS got my 3rd solar panel in, will post later
essentially bought an extra container as wanted to have a clean material to work with the bottle material is some kind of polypropylene may be that makes it hard to bond any material.
more details will follow.


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## Davil (Oct 9, 2017)

MikeOReilly said:


> I've heard of others doing similar things. No reason it can't work.
> 
> Curious... which head do you have, and how do you plan to run the hose? How will it enter the urine tank?


=====================================================
Hi Mike

Nature's Head, same as yours.
going over UPS got my 3rd solar panel in, will post later
essentially bought an extra container as wanted to have a clean material to work with the bottle material is some kind of polypropylene may be that makes it hard to bond any material.
more details will follow.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Pretty cool. Is there a pickup tube that goes down to the bottom of the tank? I'll definitely be interested in hearing how it goes. I could do something similar since I still have my old head thruhulls in place.

Did you consider the issue about the poo police and how they (apparently) enforced zero discharge in some areas? Or is this not a concern in your area?


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## Davil (Oct 9, 2017)

For the poo, enforcers can argue that will disable the seacock taking the level off, if that will not satisfy them do, have the original tank and just undo the hoses at the pump point and replace the original tank.
Yes, use a pickup tube semirigid PVC tube that fits inside the PVC elbow fitting, since is PVC to PVC superglue seems ok.
use a brass fitting to make the thread and then just screw the PVC fitting,the tank is about 1/4 thick enough for about 2 full circles thread, plenty of 5200,just heat the surfaces before applying the goo


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## johnsonjay17 (Jul 20, 2015)

davidpm said:


> What is a waste cassette and what facilities do you look for?
> 
> Did you or any guest ever have a bout of diarrhea and did that break the system?
> 
> Sorry about the personal questions but inquiring minds want to know.


I have used a composting toilet for about 3 days while experiencing diarrhea. No issues but I used more pine shavings and filled the toilet faster. No extra smell. I use pine shavings instead of Coir mainly due to availability. I have a homemade composter because I wanted a bag type system. I just pull the bag tie it up and toss in a garbage can somewhere. For continuous us it is not really a composter just a desiccating system. So if liquid in solids side you just add more desiccate (Pine Shavings or Coir).
JJ


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

johnsonjay17 said:


> I just pull the bag tie it up and toss in a garbage can somewhere. (Pine Shavings or Coir).
> JJ


I wouldn't want to be the garbage collector...


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## Mama's Mink (Dec 15, 2020)

Davil said:


> This season trying a new approach, plumbed the urine container thru a whale pump out using a thru-hull.
> In theory, should work, however between theory and real-life........
> time will tell.


I'm curious if the poopo will allow it. I bet FL wouldn't.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I wouldn't want to be the garbage collector...


Not much different than having a bag of dirty diapers, but with less smell.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## johnsonjay17 (Jul 20, 2015)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I wouldn't want to be the garbage collector...


No reason to. Since the desiccate dries it out it is almost stinkless. Emptying a cat's litter box is much worse or a bag of diapers is a order of magnitude worse.

Never asked if legal but if diapers are legal I don't see how this could not be.
JJ


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

miatapaul said:


> Not much different than having a bag of dirty diapers, but with less smell.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


A week's worth 'product' of a 10 pound baby vs a month's (or more) worth of what comes out of a 200# adult?

Methinks there is a small difference...


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## johnsonjay17 (Jul 20, 2015)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> A week's worth 'product' of a 10 pound baby vs a month's (or more) worth of what comes out of a 200# adult?
> 
> Methinks there is a small difference...


You should really try it I don't think you understand how the "product" is so benign. My wife was so dead set against this idea that I did a test. Without her knowing I used the compost toilet for a week. She leaves for work before I do in the morning so this wasn't hard. The toilet was in my closet (we have separate closets). She gets ready for work right outside my closet door. I filled 2 bags of "product" thru-out the week. As I filled a bag I placed it in a cardboard box on our headboard shelve about 3' from her head. Both bags where in the box for 2 weeks before she became bothered by the cardboard box and asked why a cardboard box was on our headboard. When I told her what it was she was rightfully disgusted but she did admit that she never smelt a thing. 
And yes my wife puts up with stuff like that all the time she is a saint.
JJ


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> A week's worth 'product' of a 10 pound baby vs a month's (or more) worth of what comes out of a 200# adult?
> 
> Methinks there is a small difference...


This is complete apples and oranges. The desiccated, partially composted material that comes out of a composting head is far different from the raw feces found in a diaper.

As for volume, how many soiled diapers are dumped into the trash systems of every municipality _every day_? Now, compared that to the volumes coming out of compost heads. If you are serious about this criticism then what about all the dog shyte that is dumped? Or how about all the soiled feminine hygiene products?


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> A week's worth 'product' of a 10 pound baby vs a month's (or more) worth of what comes out of a 200# adult?
> 
> Methinks there is a small difference...


Have you used a desicating toilet or emptied one? If not, then you have posted without knowledge (it is less problematic than a cat box because there is no urine--the difference is greater than you imagine--but double bag anyway). If yes, I apologize.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

OK,OK. But, if I understand correctly most of you guys are using it as a DESICCATING head as opposed to a true COMPOSTING head? It never hangs around the 2 or 3 months needed to really compost?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hpeer said:


> OK,OK. But, if I understand correctly most of you guys are using it as a DESICCATING head as opposed to a true COMPOSTING head? It never hangs around the 2 or 3 months needed to really compost?


Correct. Generally there isn't enough time for true composting to happen in these heads. The process can begin, but actual composting takes months, so what comes out is generally not compost. It has begun the process, and some of it (those early deposits) are well on their way, but the whole batch needs much more time.

It's still far more innocuous than the raw stuff in diapers and the like. But I really wish these heads had been named something else. I guess "desiccator" isn't very catchy. Drying? Separating? I dunno...

The real point is, they work very well. Plus they come with some significant benefits for us smallish-boat cruisers. If/when we ever get back to our boats I'll give you a personal tour of ours in operation. You'd love that .


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> This is complete apples and oranges. The desiccated, partially composted material that comes out of a composting head is far different from the raw feces found in a diaper.
> 
> As for volume, how many soiled diapers are dumped into the trash systems of every municipality _every day_? Now, compared that to the volumes coming out of compost heads. If you are serious about this criticism then what about all the dog shyte that is dumped? Or how about all the soiled feminine hygiene products?


Looks like I hit a raw nerve here. I guess I should be more careful with the desiccating toilet brigade.

It's been a couple years that I changed diapers regularly but if I remember correctly a disposable diaper is essentially a closable bag with a desiccating agent inside. How is that apples vs oranges compared to your garbage bag full with dried shyte? Of course, my point was the difference is quantity the poor trash can emptier is facing, a couple days (max) from a baby vs an adult's month or more. Maybe more than one adult.

As you pointed out yourself, what the marketers call 'composting toilets' has nada to do with composting, they're just drying it, just like a diaper. And if you don't have a second head, the last couple deposits are pretty 'raw', I would think.

Well, you could always do like jj17and keep a couple bags to ripen on your bookshelves. To each their own.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> Have you used a desicating toilet or emptied one? If not, then you have posted without knowledge (it is less problematic than a cat box because there is no urine--the difference is greater than you imagine--but double bag anyway). If yes, I apologize.


Guilty as charged, at least for half the charges. I have never emptied a desicating toilet. I have used them, though, in National Parks. I don't have particularly vivid memories, neither good nor bad. Just public toilets.

Look, I have nothing against desicating toilets, they have their place, e.g. in some National Parks, and I guess on some boats. What rubbed me the wrong way was someone casually dropping bags full of human feces in a public trash cash, without consideration that there is actually a person (!) that has do deal with that. And of course that there are others that use the trashcan and will likely not expect that it contains such 'treasures' when they drop their hamburger wrappers or their kid's chewing gum in there.

And I don't consider myself particularly squeamish. There are dirty jobs in the world and someone has to do them. I was one of them myself. When I was very young, I worked construction during summers and part of my (unskilled) job took place in active sewers. Not pleasant, at all, but necessary. Leaving one's feces in a trash can that is accessible to the public is not necessary.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

pdqaltair said:


> Have you used a desicating toilet or emptied one? If not, then you have posted without knowledge (it is less problematic than a cat box because there is no urine--the difference is greater than you imagine--but double bag anyway). If yes, I apologize.





MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Looks like I hit a raw nerve here. I guess I should be more careful with the desiccating toilet brigade.
> 
> It's been a couple years that I changed diapers regularly but if I remember correctly a disposable diaper is essentially a closable bag with a desiccating agent inside. How is that apples vs oranges compared to your garbage bag full with dried shyte? Of course, my point was the difference is quantity the poor trash can emptier is facing, a couple days (max) from a baby vs an adult's month or more. Maybe more than one adult.
> 
> ...



No, diapers do NOT contain a desciating agent. They contain super absorbent powered (Google it), which gels the waste. The diaper is them closed, sealing the moisture in. In a desiccating toilet, the primary function of the media is not to gel (not needed since there is no pee) but to dry by wicking moisture away. This is, in part, how odor is eliminated. Dried poop does not smell. Desiccating toilet media is chosen for it's ability to wick moisture.
Diapers do not separate the pee, which is most of the water and stink. Desicating toilets are also known as urine separating toilets, which is a defining characteristic.
No, until you have worked with one of these systems you cannot post knowledgeably about it. I was firmly in the holding tank camp. Then I began working with these systems, casually at first, and soon learned that applying your common sense and natural "yuck" reflex turns out to be entirely wrong.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Guilty as charged, at least for half the charges. I have never emptied a desicating toilet. I have used them, though, in National Parks. I don't have particularly vivid memories, neither good nor bad. Just public toilets.
> 
> Look, I have nothing against desicating toilets, they have their place, e.g. in some National Parks, and I guess on some boats. What rubbed me the wrong way was someone casually dropping bags full of human feces in a public trash cash, without consideration that there is actually a person (!) that has do deal with that. And of course that there are others that use the trashcan and will likely not expect that it contains such 'treasures' when they drop their hamburger wrappers or their kid's chewing gum in there.
> 
> And I don't consider myself particularly squeamish. There are dirty jobs in the world and someone has to do them. I was one of them myself. When I was very young, I worked construction during summers and part of my (unskilled) job took place in active sewers. Not pleasant, at all, but necessary. Leaving one's feces in a trash can that is accessible to the public is not necessary.


Did the desiccating toilet in the park have:

a urine separating seat?
media available to be added?
Not that I have ever seen. Additionally, public desiccating toilets are never used properly. If you had an instruction sign, they probably pee on it.

The waste bags are not what you think, less obnoxious than litter box cleanings. A responsible user will double bag it, and a responcible user will not put the bag in a park waste can. They will seek out a dumpster. But yes, anything can be done wrong. Many people pump holding tanks overboard in marinas and pee in alleys. Same problem.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Looks like I hit a raw nerve here. I guess I should be more careful with the desiccating toilet brigade.


All you have to do is be more careful around spreading misinformation. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. And as I said, if you were honestly concerned about this, you'd be aiming your barbs at the far greater contributions of those other sources.

I've yet to see a land-based composting toilet that is a urine separator. Please point to your National Park that hosts them. It must be a rather unique project, so I assume they'd make some public remarks. ALL the park composting heads I've used (and I've used many) do not separate.

PDQ already covered the diaper misinformation. And I see you completely ignore all the dog poop and hygiene products which are far more noxious, and even dangerous, than anything that comes out of a composting head.

As for the trash can users and collectors, do you imagine they are rummaging around in there? Maybe you do that, but most don't. Nor do people who collect the trash. They already know there's plenty of undesirable material in there. They don't go digging around in it.

In reality, mostly we're talking about large trash containers that get picked up by machines anyway. No humans come in contact with any of the material. But even if they did, it would be far less offensive and dangerous than your diapers or the other stuff mentioned.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I read mentions on threads that disposal of waste in the trash is "banned," but so far no one has been able to post a link to a regulation, so that renders such statements unsubstantiated. If such link exists (and it will if it is local or federal code--it's all on-line), please post it. Septage is prohibited in household waste landfills by federal regulation, but there are exemptions for diapers and stabilized waste. I have asked local regulators. I have also failed to find any regulation, letter of interpretation, or even general-purpose advice for WAG bags. That seems strange to me, but there you have it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Due mostly to social norms, with unfamiliar guests, I have no interest in having a composter. I understand their utility for certain circumstances, but they do introduce new surmountable challenges, such as cleaning the bowl, bagging the waste and bug control. 

What I find ironic is society's regulation and pushback on dumping the waste in the ocean, when it's perfectly acceptable to place the same waste in a non-degradeable plastic bag and bury it in the dirt environment instead. Landfills remain toxic for generations. Nature can break down our waste, it does so for every other animal on the planet. Composters that bag and toss are less environmentally friendly, as I see it. Our ocean problem is concentration. Hard to regulate the difference between our few dozen gallons (mostly seawater) and a cruise ship. The 3 mile thing is also stupid. It's simply the limit of local municipality's authority, but I'm certain that dumping a recreational holding tank 500 ft off a public beach (not that I condone the practice) would be entirely undetectable (I've never seen a study on this). That's also an example of people's yuk factor, not reality. Frankly, it's common practice in the Caribbean, for better or worse.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> No, until you have worked with one of these systems you cannot post knowledgeably about it.


OK, I will then shut up.

(I appreciate, though, that you corrected me about how diapers work. I did not know that)


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> Did the desiccating toilet in the park have:
> 
> a urine separating seat?
> media available to be added?
> ...


As I said earlier, I usually don't find toilet visits particularly memorable. I don't remember if there was urine separating seat, of if there was any 'media.' If you say there wasn't, I am fine with that since I don't remember and you are an expert. I do remember there was a sign saying 'composting toilet' or something.

I only mentioned my experience with a composting toilet for full disclosure: You asked me if I ever have used one, and I have. But now it looks like a public one does not count, so probably I should have lied, or even better kept my mouth shut and noth blather along on this sensitive topic on which I am clearly not qualified to comment.

May I repeat what I said earlier in this thread: I have nothing against composting heads, or desicating toilets, or whatever you call them. My problem is that I find it unpleasant, and possibly unsanitary, to throw human feces in the next available trash can. It seems you agree with that.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> As I said earlier, I usually don't find toilet visits particularly memorable. I don't remember if there was urine separating seat, of if there was any 'media.' If you say there wasn't, I am fine with that since I don't remember and you are an expert. I do remember there was a sign saying 'composting toilet' or something.
> 
> I only mentioned my experience with a composting toilet for full disclosure: You asked me if I ever have used one, and I have. But now it looks like a public one does not count, so probably I should have lied, or even better kept my mouth shut and noth blather along on this sensitive topic on which I am clearly not qualified to comment.
> 
> May I repeat what I said earlier in this thread: I have nothing against composting heads, or desicating toilets, or whatever you call them. My problem is that I find it unpleasant, and possibly unsanitary, to throw human feces in the next available trash can. It seems you agree with that.


The problem is that saying "composting heads, or desiccating toilets, or whatever you call them" is equivalent to saying "I don't like powerboats, canoes, or what ever you call them." It sounds like your experiences was with a public composting toilet, which is nothing what soever like a private desiccating toilet. I too have used public composting toilets, and it was not a positive experience! It took experience with a properly operated desiccating toilet to understand the difference. I too thought the idea of a composting toilet on a boat was nuts, but I didn't think that many people could be nuts. They are not.

Am I anti-holding tank. No, not at all. A good holding tank system can be very nice, just like home, and I've had them too.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I only mentioned my experience with a composting toilet for full disclosure: You asked me if I ever have used one, and I have. But now it looks like a public one does not count, so probably I should have lied, or even better kept my mouth shut and noth blather along on this sensitive topic on which I am clearly not qualified to comment.


Thanks Mast. Good on you saying so. Just for the record, there are a number of different types of composting toilets. The typical marine version uses separation, mixing and desiccation as the primary means of operation. Others, mostly non-marine types, also use heat and large holding tanks. And then there are the sawdust versions. And this is before we even get to wag-bag heads (which aren't composters at all, but are alternatives some people use).



MastUndSchotbruch said:


> May I repeat what I said earlier in this thread: I have nothing against composting heads, or desicating toilets, or whatever you call them. My problem is that I find it unpleasant, and possibly unsanitary, to throw human feces in the next available trash can. It seems you agree with that.


I do (can't speak for Drew). But I find a lot of things unpleasant and possibly unsanitary. On the scale of what goes into our trash systems, the end product of these heads is way down the unsanitary list, but a better option would be to divert it to a dedicated system.

In my nearly decade long use of a composting head I can count the number of times I've had to use a trash bin on one hand. Almost all the time my end product goes over the side when I'm out to sea (just like other marine heads), or gets deposited on land well off the beaten path. This latter one is easy for me since I cruise well off the beaten path most of the time.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

pdqaltair said:


> The problem is that saying "composting heads, or desiccating toilets, or whatever you call them" is equivalent to saying "I don't like powerboats, canoes, or what ever you call them." It sounds like your experiences was with a public composting toilet, which is nothing what soever like a private desiccating toilet. I too have used public composting toilets, and it was not a positive experience! It took experience with a properly operated desiccating toilet to understand the difference. I too thought the idea of a composting toilet on a boat was nuts, but I didn't think that many people could be nuts. They are not.
> 
> Am I anti-holding tank. No, not at all. A good holding tank system can be very nice, just like home, and I've had them too.


In the process of being direct, I've been rude, specifically to MastUndSchotch. I appologize. My enthusiasm got the better of me.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

OK, some more sort of related random thoughts.

What about dog poo? That seems ro he as much of an issue if not bigger. Fido needs ro ho and people are always in a tizzy about where.

I feel the hallmark a civilized culture is public bathrooms, like in Portsmiuth, Dominica. But not in any large American city, especially San Fran. And having lived in Philly I have had experiencewith the consequences.

Vacationing on a small atoll island in Belize it had out houses. While sitting contemplating the out come one could hear an occasional rustle from below, until there was a deposit. Then some clamoring from below. Coconut crabs. And there was the lady we met who related a lovely roast pork dinner with some locals living in the hills. When the inevitable time came for relief she was directed "out back" where she heard some rustling. Upon asking it was explained that the waste disposal was handled by semi-feral pigs, which gave her some reflection upon her recent diner and the concept of recycling.

Our big boat has 2 heads which I just completly redid. The forward head has a traditiknal Labac install with a 40 gallon flexible holding tank. In the event we need to use it.
The aft head has a Lavac with aPurasan, for inshore use.

Our hunting cabin had an inadequate system and the percolation was about 0. We installed a Incinolet which bakes the poo into a disposable and sterile powder. The makers claim it uses less electricity than a "composting" toilet, the instantaneous electric demand is higher but it does not have a constant fan running. I don't know if that claim is "crap" or not. Surly folks with a robust electrical system could consider it. They even have a "marine" version which just has some additional hold downs. And Incinolet's have been installed on Naval vessels.






Incinolet.com – Incinolet uses electric heat to reduce human waste to a clean, non-polluting ash. It uses no water and drains nothing out.







incinolet.com





incinolet manual



https://incinolet.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Incinolet-Manual.pdf


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## johnsonjay17 (Jul 20, 2015)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> As I said earlier, I usually don't find toilet visits particularly memorable. I don't remember if there was urine separating seat, of if there was any 'media.' If you say there wasn't, I am fine with that since I don't remember and you are an expert. I do remember there was a sign saying 'composting toilet' or something.
> 
> I only mentioned my experience with a composting toilet for full disclosure: You asked me if I ever have used one, and I have. But now it looks like a public one does not count, so probably I should have lied, or even better kept my mouth shut and noth blather along on this sensitive topic on which I am clearly not qualified to comment.
> 
> May I repeat what I said earlier in this thread: I have nothing against composting heads, or desicating toilets, or whatever you call them. My problem is that I find it unpleasant, and possibly unsanitary, to throw human feces in the next available trash can. It seems you agree with that.


I guess I will just have to leave it in the bedroom longer then


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> In the process of being direct, I've been rude, specifically to MastUndSchotch. I appologize. My enthusiasm got the better of me.


Apology is appreciated and accepted.

But there is something wrong here. All this started because I posted 8 words ("I wouldn't want to be the garbage collector..."). Everybody is paying lip-service to essential personnel; I count garbage collectors among them, and I am pretty sure they do not like to find a month's worth of human feces among the hamburger wrappers and soda cups when they empty the trash bin. As a result of these 8 words, I was told that dried feces in a publicly accessible trash can are not a problem at all, and that there are much larger problems in the world that I blithely ignored when I raised my polite objection. I agree; nuclear war comes to mind.

Someone felt it necessary to share that he surprises his wife with a collection of his own dried feces, dramatically arranged on a shelf in their living room. Clearly I am not worthy to belong to such sophisticated circles if I don't appreciate the beauty of this loving gesture.

And therefore I was declared incompetent to even address this question because I have never experienced the unexplicable joys of emptying a composting toilet. Of course that makes perfect sense: how would I dare to comment on the beauty of a painting if my name is not Picasso or Rembrandt. The previously declared allowable experience of using a desicating toilet was retro-actively found invalid because it turns out that the one I had used was the wrong type. Oops, my bad, not "urine-separating." How could I be such a boor!

I have always had great respect for PDQ and MikeOReilly but IMHO there is something irrational about attacking (yes, that is what this was) someone for objecting to an act that most people find disgusting, and that not few find downright dangerous from a Public Health stand point. You may disagree and find dried feces fascinating and perfectly harmless but you will have to accept that not everybody shares your opinion. You know, we mere mortals, who are not blessed with the hard-to-come-by experience and privilege of emptying a desicating toilet (urine separating version ONLY!) do not share this enthusiasm for dried feces. You may disagree but if you live in a society you will have to make some compromises and respect the opinions of others, even if they differ from yours.

Mere mortals like myself have the audacity to request to be spared contact with your bodily waste. You can do what you want, as long as it involves consenting adults, but please spare us others this new religion.


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## johnsonjay17 (Jul 20, 2015)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Apology is appreciated and accepted.
> 
> But there is something wrong here. All this started because I posted 8 words ("I wouldn't want to be the garbage collector..."). Everybody is paying lip-service to essential personnel; I count garbage collectors among them, and I am pretty sure they do not like to find a month's worth of human feces among the hamburger wrappers and soda cups when they empty the trash bin. As a result of these 8 words, I was told that dried feces in a publicly accessible trash can are not a problem at all, and that there are much larger problems in the world that I blithely ignored when I raised my polite objection. I agree; nuclear war comes to mind.
> 
> ...


Never said I was sophisticated and it was the bedroom not living room. 
JJ


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Mast, I'm sorry you feel hard done by. I too have appreciated your posts in the past. I've thought of you as reasoned and reasonable. So your comments on something you clearly know little about surprised and, to be honest, disheartened me.

And disappointingly, now you seem to want to rewrite the history that all can read if they wish. Neither I, nor PDQ, took issue with your "eight words." It was when you decided to double-down on your fallacious statements, and started comparing baby diaper volumes to "what comes out of a 200# adult."

And now with this latest post, I'm doubly disappointed.

I don't want to reiterate all the errors in your comments. That's been done. I just want to suggest, once again, that if you know little about a subject, it's probably best to keep your advice to yourself.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

MastUndSchotbruch makes one point that is unarguable; we should make every effort to minimize contact with potentially infectious materials.

First, remember that all waste disposal options are a compromise. If we use a holding tank, there is the pump-out station and occasional sewage overflows. Some inland waters have no or limited facilities for holding tanks. We should chose the safest option, once all factors are consider. In many cases, that might be a holding tanks system. But it might not be.

Second, users of desiccating and composting toilets need to be responsible with the waste. Composting at home could be a safe choice. Disposal (double bagged) in a dumpster that is handled by machine is low-contact. Disposal in a park trash can is not low-contact and is IMO irresponsible, even if dog poo and diapers go there. Of course, many users of holding tanks also make irresponsible decisions. Let's not blame shift and let's not be either of these people. This makes education everyone's responsibility.

Waste from a desicating toilet is orders of magnitude (10-100 times) better than mixed waste in a bag, but let's not pretend it's a basket of fruit. Pick a safe option. I have composted and I have used a large dumpster. Never a waste basket.

If you would like a good read on a part of the history of sanitation, read _The Ghost Map_, a story of an early cholera outbreak in London. Good book.
The Ghost Map


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> MastUndSchotbruch makes one point that is unarguable; we should make every effort to minimize contact with potentially infectious materials.
> ...
> Waste from a desicating toilet is orders of magnitude (10-100 times) better than mixed waste in a bag, but let's not pretend it's a basket of fruit. Pick a safe option. I have composted and I have used a large dumpster. Never a waste basket.


Completely agree, which is why I mentioned earlier that it's unfortunate larger marinas haven't developed specific collection systems to manage this new waste stream. Pump out facilities are in place to manage the liquid effluent from holding tanks, so there's no reason there can't be an organized way to manage this stream. As usage of these heads grow I assume some areas will start to set up specific collection systems.

As I said, my _least_ preferred, and least-used disposal option is an urban garbage system. And of course, it should always go in the marina's dumpsters. I've never heard of anyone dumping their semi-composted/desiccated material in a park trash bin. That would be ... inappropriate (although likely less so than a lot of other shyte that end up there).

Disposal of human waste should be done safely, or as safely as possible. The best option remains disposal out at sea (past the three-mile limit, of course). If you have a land base with space, then setting up a compost bin to complete the process is easy. Or dumping on land in the wilderness is good. Whatever is done, it should be done to minimize human contact.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> Mast, I'm sorry you feel hard done by. I too have appreciated your posts in the past. I've thought of you as reasoned and reasonable. So your comments on something you clearly know little about surprised and, to be honest, disheartened me.
> 
> And disappointingly, now you seem to want to rewrite the history that all can read if they wish. Neither I, nor PDQ, took issue with your "eight words." It was when you decided to double-down on your fallacious statements, and started comparing baby diaper volumes to "what comes out of a 200# adult."
> 
> ...


I agree with you, there is no point in discussing this further. To me, this behavior reminds me very much of a cult, or if you prefer a religion. I respect religious people and do not argue with them about their faith (within limits).

This reminds me of a situation last year when I traveled in India, immediately pre-pandemic. We were all coughing like crazy (not surprisingly, given the pollution in Delhi in the winter) and particularly my wife got into quite severe respiratory distress. She still feels the effects, more than a year later. We had acquaintances that got very concerned, and more than one of them recommended gurgling with cow urine. They were as convinced that that would cure her as any MD that prescribes antibiotics for a strep throat. To us that seemed absurd but there would have been no point arguing with them. They were just as convinced that they were right as we were of our point of view, and they meant well. And who knows, as unappetizing as it sounds, there may be a grain of truth in there, urine being sterile and all. We did not take their advice but we thanked them politely and remained on good terms. They are not stupid people but there is simply no point in arguing with religion, it will change nobody and only leads to aggravation and conflict.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> MastUndSchotbruch makes one point that is unarguable; we should make every effort to minimize contact with potentially infectious materials.
> 
> First, remember that all waste disposal options are a compromise. If we use a holding tank, there is the pump-out station and occasional sewage overflows. Some inland waters have no or limited facilities for holding tanks. We should chose the safest option, once all factors are consider. In many cases, that might be a holding tanks system. But it might not be.
> 
> ...


I essentially agree with every word what you said here.

The 'essentially' is because I have one reservation: "Waste from a desicating toilet is orders of magnitude (10-100 times) better than mixed waste in a bag". I don't know how you quantify 'better" in this context, and how you computed the factor 10-100. You may well have solid evidence for this statement and you may be able to support it quantitatively, as you do in this sentence. I just did not see an argument, by you or anyone else, how you came to this conclusion.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm a chemical engineer and part of my consulting practice is design, build and operation of large wastewater treatment systems, including one facility that specializes in taking all of the porta potty and marine waste from a large city (no names) that does not wanted it discharged dirrectly into the POTW. Yes, I understand the issues. Large volume solid waste disposal is part of the operation (not bags, but rows of roll-offs each day). You wear gloves, minimize leaks, and wash your hands frequently.

By "better" I meant less chance of infection. With regard to this specific waste stream it is an unsubstantiated guess (and I'm not going to waste lab money on it), but I have experience with the difference between stabilized waste and what's in the bottom of a john. The waste from a desiccating toilet is relatively dry. A typical person poops 1 pound per day, if cruising probably only half of that is on the boat (the other half is shore-side) and 40-50% of the moisture is lost to evaporation (yes, weighed). Most sailors will empty the container weekly. To that, an equal weight (but far higher volume) of an effective drying agent is added, making it far less dense than what comes out of a litter box. I doubt I've ever hefted a bag that weighed more than 8-10 pounds. If double bagged, the bags are not likely to rupture because the waste is not dense, similar to typical rubbish.

If there is a specific regulation, please post the link. I have searched WAG bags and related topics and found only references to bulk shipments of septage to a landfill, which is a different thing.

The other thing to remember is that there are few practical alternatives in many areas. No pump-out stations. No off-shore waters. Marinas won't accept portable toilet waste, going to a marina is expensive and probably is not a part of the plan, and carrying the john home in the back of the car sucks. In the winter a conventional head will freeze. If a trip is more than a few days on inland waters, a portable toilet won't last that long, leading to dumping it ... somewhere. So the options that WILL happen are all less safe for people and the environment than what we are talking about. If there is a better option, we'd love to hear about it.

In any public debate you are communicating with three groups; people that already agree with you, people that will never agree with you, and people that are listening in. In this case, for better or worse, my target is the people that are listening in. If a holding tanks system is working for you, great. Keep it up and mind you pump-outs. I used holding tank systems for many years and liked them fine. If you're out of options, maybe a desiccating toilet will work for you. Dispose of your waste responsibly.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I agree with you, there is no point in discussing this further. To me, this behavior reminds me very much of a cult, or if you prefer a religion. I respect religious people and do not argue with them about their faith (within limits).


The cultish or religious perspective is to know you are right, without bothering to look at the evidence. Your approach fits this description in this discussion.

ADD, Mast, I'm sorry you feel so put out. You are correct. There is no point carrying this on.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> I'm a chemical engineer and part of my consulting practice is design, build and operation of large wastewater treatment systems, including one facility that specializes in taking all of the porta potty and marine waste from a large city (no names) that does not wanted it discharged dirrectly into the POTW. Yes, I understand the issues. Large volume solid waste disposal is part of the operation (not bags, but rows of roll-offs each day). You wear gloves, minimize leaks, and wash your hands frequently.
> 
> By "better" I meant less chance of infection. With regard to this specific waste stream it is an unsubstantiated guess (and I'm not going to waste lab money on it), but I have experience with the difference between stabilized waste and what's in the bottom of a john. The waste from a desiccating toilet is relatively dry. A typical person poops 1 pound per day, if cruising probably only half of that is on the boat (the other half is shore-side) and 40-50% of the moisture is lost to evaporation (yes, weighed). Most sailors will empty the container weekly. To that, an equal weight (but far higher volume) of an effective drying agent is added, making it far less dense than what comes out of a litter box. I doubt I've ever hefted a bag that weighed more than 8-10 pounds. If double bagged, the bags are not likely to rupture because the waste is not dense, similar to typical rubbish.
> 
> ...


OK, so your definition of 'better' is by how much lower the chance of infection is. Makes sense. I am not quite convinced that desiccated human feces are (by weight) 10-100 times less dangerous than 'typical rubbish' but you have more experience in waste disposal than I do (which is pretty much nil) so I accept that. To actually quantify this (the "10-100" part) would, as you say, require formal investigation and I accept that you say this is your unsubstantiated guess. Sailnet is not exactly a scholarly journal so let's leave it at that.

I did not understand the rest of the posting, though. It sounds as if you wanted to convince me that 'composting' toilets have a place in boats. Did I EVER say anything different? In this thread alone I already said exactly that, at least twice. And I am not aware that I ever said that holding tanks (or whatever other choices) are superior to composting toilets.

My only objection was to dropping bags of dried human feces in publicly accessible trash receptacles. It seems like we are all in agreement on that now. So all is good.


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