# Buying a live aboard sailboat



## Sailortobe888 (Aug 20, 2015)

Hello to all,
I am new to this forum and also new to sailing. My wife and I have this crazy and exciting idea to buy a sailboat to live aboard after we retire(about 15 years from now). I have mainly been looking at 45 foot cruisers with a center cockpit for the larger aft stateroom. I have become very frustrated with online boat sale sites. As I am finding all of the boats in this category seem to be listed for way more than what NADA shows as a fair market value. My questions are: Is there a way to weed out the sellers that dont really want to sell their boats and are just looking for someone to take advantage of? Is there a more accurate way to determine fair market value besides NADA?

Thanks in advance for any and all help/advice!


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## grnrngr (Oct 8, 2014)

First of all if you've got 15 years to look around, I'd recommend checking out all the different models of boats you think you might like regardless of price (window shopping) in order to see what amenities, features, or recent updates might be making a significant difference in price, as well as examining interior layouts that may or may not work for you. As far as pricing, I think generally, like cars and houses you'll find prices lower from owners rather than dealers/agents/brokers. Don't know of any "accurate" price guide, location of the boat can be a factor as well.


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## Sailortobe888 (Aug 20, 2015)

I will definitely take your advice, as I do have some time to find just the right boat. I just wonder if NADA states a boat is only worth 90K and the boat I find is being sold for 150K, would a bank even lend me enough money to purchase that boat? And further would boaters insurance only cover the boat for its fair market value?


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

Who knows?
There is the asking price and the selling price. The same make of boat will sell for very different prices depending upon location. 
The value is also greatly effected by what equipment is on board.
What is the answer, get a feel for asking prices, make an offer if the owner is interested they accept.
watch the market, over priced boats don't sell.
well priced sell quickly, how close is the selling price to the asking price. depends how keen the owner is to sell.

banks are not keen on lending money to by boats. they may be more willing now than a couple of years ago. expect to require a high deposit possible as high as 20% or 25%.
My boat is insured for the value the surveyor put on it. which is quite a bit more than I paid. would I get the full survey value if it sunk? Its an insurance company, I doubt it.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I assume you are using Yachtworld. There is also a private Yachtworld that brokers can access that shows what boats actually sold for. WRT the time frame, market conditions in 15 years are likely to be very different than now. One intriguing factor is that there are relatively few boats being built today compared to in the 1980s. That of course means fewer used boats in the future unless you want to look at boats that may be 50 years old (and may be junk or still quite good).


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

Here's my best suggestion, especially if you have 15 years to go. Stop looking at 45 footers. Buy something for the here and now to see if you like boating before plunging in head first into a 45 footer. 

Something in the 25-30 range. Big enough to spend weekends on, even an occasional 1-2 week vacation. Use this boat to learn on and to see if you like the boating-sailing lifestyle. More importantly, you will quickly figure out what is important to you to have in that big 45'.
Depending on brand, age, condition and equipment, you can spend anywhere from $5000 to $50000 for a used boat.


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## Sailortobe888 (Aug 20, 2015)

Well I actually want to buy the liveaboard within the next couple of years. Keep it on the Great Lakes until I retire and hopefully have it paid off. At the same time use it to hone sailing skills and just plain have fun on it. So if I could find something that my wife and I are really interested in and it is determined to be a very seaworthy vessel I would make the purchase sooner rather than later.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

NADA values are not all that accurate, normally close but not always. It is sometimes way high, other times way low. Sold boats (private to brokers that have an account on Yachtworld) is likely the most accurate but even that has been reported to boost prices. A third site is Boat Values, Prices, Evaluations, Used Boat Price Guides - BUCValu they allow you do something like three searches a month for free. I am assuming you are planing to work with a broker, so they would be the best source for info from soldboats. But condition and equipment can really make a big difference in value. Research how much things like cushion recovering (several thousands on a boat that size) costs to get an idea as to why it is hard to place a price on a boat. Add to that they are not a commodity item like a car such as NADA gives values to. How hard is it to figure out what a 2005 Camry is worth, after all they only made like 5 million of them while most boats like you are talking about might have four or five sales a year on and one was pristine, another was fire damaged, so where does that leave the boat your interested in? The only real thing that matters is how much the boat is worth to you. In the meantime you could look into taking ASA classes and chartering some boats to see what you like.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

NADA is useless far as boats go


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

Sailortobe888 said:


> Well I actually want to buy the liveaboard within the next couple of years. Keep it on the Great Lakes until I retire and hopefully have it paid off. At the same time use it to hone sailing skills and just plain have fun on it. So if I could find something that my wife and I are really interested in and it is determined to be a very seaworthy vessel I would make the purchase sooner rather than later.


That's fine, but I can pretty much guarantee that after a period of time, maybe a couple of months, maybe a year or two, you're going to be saying to yourself....
I wish I had bought a boat with a full keel....wing keel....fin keel....cutter rigged....fractional rigged....ketch....don't like the center cockpit...want a bigger engine....wish it didn't draw so much water...my boat is too big....my boat isn't big enough......I could go on and on.
Things you learn as you go.
When I had my first boat, I learned quickly there were some things that were must haves on my next boat. My current (second) boat has them.


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## Sailortobe888 (Aug 20, 2015)

Thanks for the advice. We actually chartered a Beneteau Oceanis 38 on Monday and the family had a great time. The charter captain was very nice to let me pick his brain. I am definitely going to sign up for some lessons either ASA or US Sail. Any thoughts on which has a better program?


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## Sailortobe888 (Aug 20, 2015)

Thanks, one of the things you dont think of as a first time boat buyer.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

As someone who has a 45 footer on the Great Lakes let me tell you that you don't want a 45 footer on the Great Lakes. Our boat was wonderful for sailing around the world, but on most of the Great Lakes the docking facilities (yacht clubs and marinas) are not ideal for bigger boats. Depths are often limited, docks are short, and room for turning can be tight. There is a huge difference between the 38 you chartered and a 45. I would suggest something in the low to mid 30s to develop your skills and let you decide what kind of boat you want for the next step.


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## grnrngr (Oct 8, 2014)

I would concur, especially for a new sailor. As far as who has the better instruction/certification program, NauticEd is supposed to be one of the best, but even taking the U.S. Power Squadron classes can teach you a great deal about boat handling and navigation. While I understand many people do go out and buy large boats to begin with, my personal experience leads me to believe it is better to start with small boats and learn how to sail first, then graduate to larger boats. As with motorcycles, I would never suggest someone go out and buy a new Harley Road King without learning how to ride a motorcycle first.


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## rnixon (May 7, 2013)

Sailortobe888 said:


> Well I actually want to buy the liveaboard within the next couple of years.


Do you really want a boat that is 13+ years older (than when you bought it) to start your retirement on? Boat designers keep getting more interior space out of the same LOA, not to mention twin helms etc. Who knows what changes will arrive over the next 10 years.

Would you buy a (daily driver) car for retirement now?


Sailortobe888 said:


> Keep it on the Great Lakes until I retire and hopefully have it paid off.


I would save the cash. Between now and your retirement, I would expect the economic cycle to present a good opportunity to get a bargain, if you have cash on hand.


Sailortobe888 said:


> At the same time use it to hone sailing skills and just plain have fun on it. So if I could find something that my wife and I are really interested in and it is determined to be a very seaworthy vessel I would make the purchase sooner rather than later.


Unless you have a lot of free time, chartering may be a cheaper way to sail now, with the added bonus of allowing you to experience boats with different characteristics, equipment and features. That will help you find the best boat for your needs.

Good luck, and have fun!


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I agree with the recommendations to buy a smaller/cheaper boat now to get some experience and then move up when retirement is close.

As to the NADA and BUC prices, they are of minimal value. As noted there are typically only a few sales of a particular model in a year, unlike cars where there are thousands. NADA seems to use the initial list price for the boat and then applies a depreciation factor. SoldBoat is the brokers-only site that is part of Yachworld.com. It lists sale prices, though some say brokers sometimes enter inflated prices. Still the best assessment of the market value of a particular model boat. If you are dealing with a broker, ask for a printout for the boat you have looked at and are interested in.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

One thing to keep in mind though is if you are planning on financing your boat and you use a local bank, or one that is not very familiar with the marine market will likely use the NADA value to determine the amount they will loan on the boat. Not because it has any real accuracy but because they will need to show there superiors something that lists the value of the boat. They likely already have a relationship with NADA from there auto loan department.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Jan 10, 2014)

Keep in mind, too, that sellers tend to get one, very emotionally attached to their boats, and two, tend to want to get full sales price out of any "improvements" they've made over the years.

Of the last three friends of mine that were selling sailboats, two ended up taking about half of their asking price and the other took his off the market when he was unable to get what he wanted. All three were emotionally invested and not realistic about the market in general and their boat in particular. 

It works the other way around too, sometimes. A friend of mine was essentially given a 30' handbuilt wooden sailboat by an older gentleman who could no longer enjoy it due to health and old age. He said he didn't need the money and would rather someone he knew would use and take care of her have her than sell her to some random person or watch her rot at the dock.


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## SeaDubya (Sep 5, 2015)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> A friend of mine was essentially given a 30' handbuilt wooden sailboat by an older gentleman who could no longer enjoy it due to health and old age. He said he didn't need the money and would rather someone he knew would use and take care of her have her than sell her to some random person or watch her rot at the dock.


This is what I did. Since you have time on your side the buying criteria is to look for a distressed SELLER, not a boat. Once you find that kind of seller with a boat you like, you get a great deal. I got a fully-loaded 35-footer with rigging and mechanical upgrades for a few thousand dollars. The guy was older and had changed hobbies from SCUBA diving in Mexico to fly fishing in Colorado. He wanted to see it go to a good home and my family were the benefactors for him putting the love of his boat over money. It had sat in the dry storage yard in Mexico for several years, but after 40 days in the work yard (working half days) and about $3-4000 I had her in the water sailing around the Sea of Cortez. I get lots of compliments on her and we are having the time of our lives!

*Now I am going to stray from the crowd:* Do not buy a smaller boat because you are new. BUY THE BOAT YOU WANT. Everyone always told me this and I am glad I bought the boat I wanted (and my wife liked) instead of something that would have ended up being too small for us to enjoy. Buy the boat you want so you enjoy the money you spent on it and the time you'll have to maintain and keep her. It's no fun to work on a boat you never really wanted in the first place. It's also great to learn to sail the boat you plan on keeping for a long time instead of learning to sail a "placeholder" boat you eventually have to replace. Make sure you are ready to spend the money though. A few feet in length is more than a few dollars increase of cost and time to maintain. Just my $0.02


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## SeaDubya (Sep 5, 2015)

Sailortobe888 said:


> Is there a way to weed out the sellers that dont really want to sell their boats and are just looking for someone to take advantage of? Is there a more accurate way to determine fair market value besides NADA?


You'll find the deals on sites that have owners posting. Places like YachtWorld are for dealer sales. SailboatListings.com and Craigslist are going to be your best bets. Just start searching Craigslist in big port cities to get an idea of what certain types of boats are being listed for by owners.

Any NADA or "book" value numbers are inherently flawed for two reasons: 1) There is not enough sales data to track as most boat sales are not recorded (especially the amount they sold for). 2)There is no standardization. It's not like cars where you have a Corolla and it has A/C, Manual or Automatic, and power windows or not. There are over a thousand things that can be different between two model boats of the same year. There is no way to quantify it as the production is so low. Boats are notoriously customized and changed the second a new owner takes them over. It would be safe to say that every boat out there is one in a million. No two will EVER be alike!

Basically your best bet is to look at TONS of boats, even if they may not necessarily be the best boat for you. You'll learn a lot by doing that and eventually will find what you are looking for. Then if the boat is right, the price is right, and the time is right....you buy the boat. Otherwise you don't.

The best piece of advice I EVER got on buying a boat: "Boats grow on trees". There will always be another boat coming on the market and THAT boat could be the perfect boat for you. So don't buy a sub-par boat that doesn't fit your criteria just because you are afraid you aren't going to find the one you want. You have time on your side and you will find a boat that makes you happy.


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## carlwk3c (Aug 28, 2015)

I agree. Buying a boat that doesn't suit your needs/desires (as long as you truly know them) is an exercise in eating depreciation and selling costs.
Back in 1990 when my wife of 10 years passed after a 4 year battle with cancer, I was in a serious "let me the hell out of here" mode and I KNEW I wanted to go cruising for the experience and change.
I took a 28 hour on the water learn to sail course in Newport Beach, CA, on a ~26' sloop while looking at larger boats. After completing the course, I ended up buying a Tayana 42 from a couple in Ventura, CA that had made one trip to the South Pacific and back via Hawaii and San Francisco. (They were the original owners.) The husband had taken a year's leave of absence from an aerospace job to pursue his dream. The wife had gone along with it, but now that they were back his company had offered him a promotion and a transfer to the UK. His wife's dream was to live in a country cottage in England, so his fate was doomed and his crusing days were over if he intended to stay married.
I sold the boat in Florida 6 years later, after 6 years of live aboard and cruising, for very nearly what I'd paid for it. (I did not do expensive "upgrades," just did a good job of maintaining it as I bought it.)
The comment about finding a motivated (distressed?) seller is a very good point.
Combined with buying what you want/need, when you need it and are ready to go, it allows you to benefit from someone else eating the depreciation and investing in upgrades. (Assuming, of course that the boat is in solid, seaworthy condition, and hasn't been used/abused to the point of needing major refit/upgrade work.)
My wife and I are ready to retire now and just bought a beautiful, very well maintained Crealock 34. The seller's wife backed out of cruising on him, and we got a very good price on a boat that's had excellent maintenance, and has virtually new rigging and sails, a low hour engine, and major investment in electronics (none of which investment the seller got to enjoy or recover from the selling price.)


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Would note:
Charter boats are a very different thing than live aboards. On a live aboard you may want much more tankage for fuel,and water. A space to work. A design easy to work on. Actual sea berths. Larger frig/freezer. Components with the longest service life possible. Ability to sail and be safe in any weather. Ease of sailing to point you can single on watches. Protection from sun. Great ventilation. Heat and maybe AC. Probably a watermaker. Definitely additional comm gear (ssb/sat phone ). The list goes on.
A boat designed and rigged for live aboard cruising is much more expensive to buy and maintain. There is no reason to get into this rat hole until just before you intend to start cruising.
There are very different ways to live aboard. Some go Marina to Marina . They plug in, run the AC and ice maker and have a grand old time. They island hop on pleasant days sailing conservatively.
Others circumnavigate. They take what comes, see the world and have memories to die for.
Some snowbird across the big blue. They know the ocean in all its glory and fits of anger but never see the snow.
Some snow bird down the ICW. Always at peace, never stressed, cocktails at sundown.
Some find a spot they like. They day sail from there when the mood strikes.
The above is gross generalizations for which I apologize. But the point is the right boat for each lifestyle maybe very different.
At this point I would be surprised if you know in detail how you want to live aboard. I know after 35y of sailing I did not. I've chosen to snowbird to the eastern Caribbean for a few years then go to South Pacific . I thought I wanted to circumnavigate but now know I don't. Things may change for you as well.
Buy the boat that's right for you now. You make one pass. Your "last boat" may be quite different than what you would choose now.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

outbound said:


> Would note:
> Charter boats are a very different thing than live aboards....At this point I would be surprised if you know in detail how you want to live aboard. I know after 35y of sailing I did not...


I think that miatapaul's point was that OP has zero sailing experience, and before sinking a bunch of money on the wrong boat, try living on a boat a week at a time with a charter. That will teach him a lot about:


Do you actually like sailing?
How much storage space do you need? How much berthing space are you willing to give up for it?
What galley design do you like?
Do you want your head fore or aft? Do you want two heads?
Do you want a dock queen? Or are you going to anchor out all the time?
How big is too big, given 1) the physical demands of sailing a larger boat vs. a smaller boat 2) the greater cost of docking a larger boat
Do you want a furling mainsail?
...and hundreds of other considerations.

A week or two of chartering will not answer the hundreds of questions. But it will answer dozens of them. And since he does not even know the questions to ask, it will help him to know what to ask.

His example of a one-day captained charter is baby steps compared to what he needs to do to prepare himself for this. And, of course, he has a lot of sailing education that he needs to complete before he can safely do a bareboat charter.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Long before you are ready to buy a boat, you need to have sailed on enough of them to have some idea of what you want.
Every boat is a compromise, and just what you are willing to compromise on, can only be realized by experience.
So, when the time comes to buy, you will understand how to get the boat you want for the price you are willing to pay.


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## BlueKnows (Oct 1, 2015)

We're in the same boat as the OP with about the same planning horizon of 15 yrs. We have some limited experience sailing and being on boats and will start taking keel boat courses next summer with a view to do a bareboat charter vacations the following winter. Right now I'm looking at boats onlne and reviewing articles and youtube posts, just to get a general feel for different boats. Two-three years from now we will likely buy a small cruiser to get a feel for boat ownership, the lifestyle, costs and enjoyments. Before we buy the plan will to get on, in, sail or just crawl around on as many boat as we can to get a feel for what works for us. Looking at people's blogs and videos I see all sorts of boats being sailed all around the world each to their own when it comes to comforts, risks and experience. Right now forecasting out and imaginging being late 50s with maybe 10yrs experience boats like the Island Packet have an appeal, something just under 40' easily sailed by a couple, heavier displacement and more comfortable in rougher conditions. In the here and now, a faster beamer boat is more appealing.


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