# Sailing Schools - certificated coures or 'a la carte'???



## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

If you've paid for sail training in the last 10 - 15 years, which route did you choose - certificated course (like ASA...) or a la carte (non-certificated, custom tailored, multiple sail lessons)?

Some folks prefer the certificated route (one size fits all - but nationally recognized) and others go to schools where the training is personally tailored (well developed course, sail until proficient - but not nationally recognized).

Everyone learns differently, at different rates and in different ways.....what was your experience? And why did you choose the route you took? And were you pleased with the training and the outcome?

Certificated school or personalized, tailored sail training? I'd like to hear your thoughts if you've paid for training in the last 10 - 15 years.

If you prefer to PM plz do.

Cheers and Thanks!


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I opted to go through an ASA school. The only charter company I've ever used also has their own non-certified classes that qualify you to charter from them. They're cheaper than the ASA classes, but since I sometime hope to charter elsewhere I decided it was worth the extra money to take ASA classes.

Funnily, this charter company generally makes you take a checkout sail (for a few hundred bucks) if they don't have you on record, unless you've taken their classes. I was lucky in that my ASA teacher is one of their checkout captains and she vouched for me, so I was able to charter from them without the additional checkout.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I took non-accredited classes at a locally known non-profit school.  I wanted my initial classes to concentrate on sailing and basic sail trim and liked that this school had a low student:teacher ratio of 2:1. The classes were taught on small (20' LOA, 5' beam) and motorless keel boats and the first time that we left the dock my instructor put the tiller in my hand and had me sail away. That really triggered a great love of sailing.

ASA or US Sailing would make chartering easier, but I have no regrets with the path that I chose. Many people started off at the same school as me and then jumped into the ASA or US Sailing programs at an appropriate point.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

We took our first class last week with J World Sailing in San Diego. It was definitely a tailored class but would opt for a more formal structure to fill in the blanks.


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Thanks! Great answers from all of you - just the sort of replies I was hoping to get. Plz keep more insights coming - I'm only curious to hear individual reasons/logic/perspectives and not to debate anyone's reasoning. 
Thanks!


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## John Casey (Mar 3, 2014)

Malyea, don't think it has to be a binary choice. You can also have a certifed course that is taylored to your wants/needs.

There are lots of instructors out there that have CYA, RYA, ASA certifications that can custom build a syllabus for you towards a certification, or even allow you to go right to challenge the testing requirements based on your own experience.

You should also consider what your learning style is as well. Do you perform well in a regimented/military style learning environment, or more laissez-faire allowing you to make mistakes on the way at your own pace?

There are lots of threads out there discussion the actual need for an official certification as well. 

For my wife and I, based on where we are currently living, we are using an RYA certified instructor. So far we have achieved Day Skipper, and will soon have Coastal Skipper. 

In our case it is a compressed amount of practical experience/instruction/testing due to our limited time available.

We will have 2 certificates from the RYA to show off, but very little real world experience compared to others our there that do not have any certifications at all. 

What Day Skipper does do is let you charter vessels in the med, to get more experience on our own. Haven't found any places here that will rent to Visa Captains. Some of them will require an ICC as well, which we just have to fill out the paperwork for through the RYA.

Do some self-analysis and actually talk to some places on the phone, and visit them in person. Very hard to get a good sense communicating via email...which we all tend to do these days. 

Good luck!


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

malyea said:


> Thanks! Great answers from all of you - just the sort of replies I was hoping to get. Plz keep more insights coming - I'm only curious to hear individual reasons/logic/perspectives and not to debate anyone's reasoning.
> Thanks!


If you are reasonably intelligent and can read, you do not need to take any classes. If you like that sort of thing, fine, spend your money that way, but there are plenty of opportunities to learn sailing without taking any classes. Many boat owners are looking for crew. The best courses are the almost free ones: the Coast Guard auxiliary and Power Squadron courses and the Boat/US online courses available. There are many good sailing books and accounts.

The truth is becoming a good sailor depends, in large part, on natural abilities, talents, or gifts: spatial relations abilities, problem solving, planning, mechanical abilities, strength, coordination, and balance. Unfortunately, if you lack these gifts, you will probably never become a good sailor - those are all the posts by folks who can't get in and out of their slips, in and out of the inlet, anchor without dragging into someone else, or sail without hurting themselves or breaking something, or requiring a tow home or a rescue from the Coast Guard. Inevitably, they seem to believe they just need to buy something more to become a good sailor: certification classes, a better boat, more electronics, or a next generation anchor (which erroneous belief is great for the sponsors of sailing sites).

Lack of natural ability or gifts doesn't prevent you from enjoying sailing as a social activity: spending lots of time on boats, owning a boat, belonging to a club, chartering, sitting on other people's boats, sleeping on your boat on weekends in the marina, motorsailing to raft ups, going to boat shows, buying all sorts of gear, learning to tie 100 knots, etc.

Becoming a good sailor means sailing outside your comfort zone in challenging circumstances. For those of us who have been sailing for years, ultimately, that requires solo sailing and learning how to repair maintain our boats ourselves. Books become our best resources. We also learn to recognize the few knowledgeable sources of information on these forums from the mass of garbage, such as those recommending that you spend thousands of dollars for framed sailing certifications you can hang on the wall.


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

More good thoughts - thanks. 

Having sailed since 1973 starting with a basic weekend school at NAS Pensacola, I've managed to miss out on the 'formal sailing schools & certifications' that have developed over the last couple decades. I came up more through the self taught, read and do approach - have owned and or skippered numerous boats 12' to 41' - offshore, coastal, charter, etc....

...but having zero experience with the 'school/formal curriculum' approach I'm particularly interested in hearing why individuals have chosen one path over another.....just curious...

Thanks.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Gone the route of some who previously posted without formal training but gained experience through Power Squadron courses, crewing on boats and volunteering on Pennsylvania's tall ship, Brig. 'Niagria'..but learned mostly from my wife whom was brought up as a child on her father's, (a Naval academy grad), various sail and power boats. With that attained my USCG Masters the hard way passing the much harder USCG examination point in Baltimore..not the current USCG approved Captains Schools....


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

aa3jy said:


> ..not the current USCG approved Captains Schools....


Thanks aa3y...but maybe just a tweak of a course correction here 

I'm interested mainly in hearing from folks about their choice of 'entry level' sail training (Basic Keelboat, Coastal Cruising, etc). Curious more about 'I chose a certificated program because.......' or 'I chose Capt Bill's Sailing School because.....'

Thanks everyone - bare your soul and tell us 'why'...
Feel free to PM if this too public


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I have never seen the value of an ASA certificate, but then again, I've never felt that the "cookie cutter" sailing school was the best way to teach sailing. As an instructor for a major, national, sailing school, there were a few things in the curriculum that I was extremely impressed with, but the majority of the classes were just too narrow minded, IMO. There are as many ways to do most things in sailing, as there are sailors, and to preach that this is the only, "right and proper way" does not sit well with me.
As a teacher, I much prefer to tailor the lessons to the individuals, though it may be more expensive and time consuming for me. I want my students to be able to draw on their own common sense, as much as what they have been taught, when things don't go as expected.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

jameswilson29 said:


> If you are reasonably intelligent and can read, you do not need to take any classes. If you like that sort of thing, fine, spend your money that way, but there are plenty of opportunities to learn sailing without taking any classes. Many boat owners are looking for crew. The best courses are the almost free ones: the Coast Guard auxiliary and Power Squadron courses and the Boat/US online courses available. There are many good sailing books and accounts.


This assumes a lot. I don't know where the original poster is, or what their goal is.

"Many boat owners are looking for crew" really? So I should just drive five hours to the water and walk around the docks hoping some mom & pop will take me out with them for the weekend? This might work in the boat-filled Chesapeake, but it's hardly a sound plan in flyover country.

My goal was to be able to charter a boat. No charter company is going to say "You read a book, took a free Coast Guard class, and have puttered around in dinghies? Great, you can take our 40' boat out, no problem!"

I think I spent $1500 to take ASA 101, 103, and 104. That's not a lot of money, and I consider it well spent.

I see your point that there are a lot of ways to learn to sail that don't involve handing filthy lucre over to for-profit schools, but for someone who doesn't have a lot of access to boats but wants to be able to rent a big one, they're the way to go.


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Never intended this thread to be a "I think my way is the best way" flavored discussion...human nature being what it is - oh well.

Consider it curiosity or market research - either way, I continue to be interested in hearing from folks who've paid for sail training in the last 15 years, especially if you can answer these questions...

WHICH route did you choose - either a) certificated course through ASA, etc or b) non-certificated school like "Capt Bob's Sailing School?

WHY did you chose your school?

In hindsight, are you SATISFIED with your choice?

Appreciate you folks taking the time to answer - PM is fine if you prefer.

Cheers!


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I sailed for 30 years before ever taking a formal course. About 5 years before I retired, I took the ASA instructor clinics and then taught for about 7 years part time. ( 5 while I was still working, and 2 summers after retirement) 

I had great instructors in those clinics and excellent sailors taking the clinics with me. I definitely learned a lot and felt that it was a great fun experience. 

As far as the certificate vs a private more tailored course, I would say, that you don't know..what you don't know. So, why not take a " cookie cutter" course, get a certificate and in the process; you will then discover where you need more training. With that knowledge you can seek private lessons or continue advancing via the school format. It really doesn't matter whether or not other people think it's a value to pay for such a course it only matters if you find it of Value. 

The biggest mistake I see made by students is that they take a basic course...then don't go sailing to practice/master what they've learned. Then they come back the following year and want the next level course...and they've forgotten everything they learned the previous year. 

At the end of the day...you'd be hard pressed to charter bareboat for 2 days for what these schools charge for a basic course with an instructor, So it's not all that expensive imho. So my answer is that you can do both... I'd probably start with a basic course and see what you think. If you do go that route, I'd ask around and find the school and instructor that people have had good experiences with.


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## Caribbeachbum (Feb 23, 2014)

My wife and I chose an "official" school over your "Capt. Bob" because the structure was laid out and all official -- we knew what we were getting (or at least, supposed to be getting). I suppose if Capt. Bob was a friend, then we might have chosen a different path. But also, rumor has it that official certs can make chartering simpler and insurance cheaper.

We did some fairly decent research and chose Charleston Sailing School. We had good reasons ... we liked the full-week-on-the-boat option, and we thought it would be nice to spend time in Charleston. Both reasons turned out to be good ones.

And yes, we had a great time and learned lots. I can recommend the Charleston Sailing School without reservation.

Hope this was useful!


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Caribbeachbum said:


> My wife and I chose an "official" school over your "Capt. Bob" because the structure was laid out and all official -- we knew what we were getting (or at least, supposed to be getting). I suppose if Capt. Bob was a friend, then we might have chosen a different path. But also, rumor has it that official certs can make chartering simpler and insurance cheaper.
> 
> We did some fairly decent research and chose Charleston Sailing School. We had good reasons ... we liked the full-week-on-the-boat option, and we thought it would be nice to spend time in Charleston. Both reasons turned out to be good ones.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the terrific Reply - right on target, just what I'm looking for. Anyone else with first hand, first person experience in actually choosing a sailing school - 'certificated' or not?

Thanks!


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## paikea (Aug 3, 2014)

I am very new to sailing, it was and still is daunting to know where to start and what's the path I need to take to reach my specific goals. 
In the end I want to own and safely sail my sailboat. Safely and confident, especially that as a woman I like to depend on myself only, just like I drive my car instinctively, I don't think per se what I need to do to get from A to B. I want to sail a boat like that, at one point internationally, blue water sailing, which means I need to "learn" to do it but also gain a lot of experience to reach that direct instinct level. 
Last year I did a Basic Keelboat with a US Sailing certified club. But most of these are short courses, they cover the theory and a little practice. What would make a difference for these to stick is to do a lot of practice and also being exposed to different theories. 
Now currently I am not in the US for a while, but still want to keep at it, so I am actually starting new sailing courses with another club on Monday, on small boats and I think that will give me a great deal of experience and hopefully to tap more into that instinctual sailing. 
To me, anything that would expose me to sailboats, small and big will be an advantage regardless I get a recognized certification or not. 
But a recognized certification is important too from what I was told when in discussions with insurance companies for your own boat and when renting a boat as well when the need is there. So the moment I am back in the US I will continue the usual US Sailing courses path to get several certifications for the above mentioned reasons. It seems US Sailing is fairly recognized internationally actually, just like PADI for scuba diving. 
In rest, I think the real learning comes with a lot of practice not the course itself, so any way I can get my hands on a boat, small or big, that's good for me.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

This thread would be a really good disguised commercial for sailing schools in general, and sailing certifications in particular!!!

I am so glad I was able to read this very important information!!!

My dream is to spend lots of money on a sailing school certification so I can spend lots of money on a charter!!!

Now, that is real sailing, not that imaginary, fantasy sailing someone was complaining about!!!

:laugher:laugher:laugher


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

paikea said:


> I am very new to sailing, it was and still is daunting to know where to start and what's the path I need to take to reach my specific goals.
> 
> Last year I did a Basic Keelboat with a US Sailing certified club. But most of these are short courses, they cover the theory and a little practice. What would make a difference for these to stick is to do a lot of practice and also being exposed to different theories.
> 
> In rest, I think the real learning comes with a lot of practice not the course itself, so any way I can get my hands on a boat, small or big, that's good for me.


Thanks Paikea, another good insight/answer from your personal perspective.

Not intending for this thread to be an opportunity to foist 'opinions' on folks
and I appreciate your view.

Cheers and good luck getting the practice you want - it's well worth it!


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I haven't read all the replies, but it seems that maylea has been sailing for a while, and is unsure about the value of certifications. All that the certifications do is prove that you successfully demonstrated particular skills at one point in time. By themselves, they do not make you a "competent" sailor. 

ASA provides for a student to "challenge" the ASA standard at any level (101, 103, 104, 105, etc.). What this means is that you can take the written test, do a brief sail with a certified instructor, and pay a nominal fee (substantially less than the course). If you are successful in the sailing and written parts of the challenge, you are awarded the certification.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Based on Previous Posts, Maelea wants to open a sailing school in Florida..Yes? 

I will say that one of the more interesting model's I've seen is a combination school/club. 

There ARE people who don't want to own a boat, or sail the seven seas..but they'd like to try sailing and or have.. regular access to a small boat to go sailing for a day when they like. Just like there are people who rent an apt. or own a condo vs those that own their own home. 
Likewise there are gyms, pool clubs, etc.. So you don't have to build a gym in your basement or dig a pool in your backyard.. 

One model I've seen uses the school boats in the mornings for paid "certificate" instruction..But even the written test portion is A la Carte...( you can get classroom and on water instruction..but stop at the written test ) and in the afternoons the boats are available for club members. An annual membership fee gets you regular access to a boat without all the headaches of ownership. There's an online reservation system. The Club approves X number of club skippers, based on demonstrated skills so you can always sail with someone more experienced if you're new. But you are guaranteed equal opportunity to be at the helm. The club skipper is there for support and safety.

I had regular access to boats when I was 1st learning. But, if I were starting again today..this club/school model would appeal to me. It also solves one of the biggest challenges to those just starting out...access to a boat to practice on..before taking the next step to owning if that's even a desire.


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

eherlihy said:


> I haven't read all the replies, but it seems that maylea has been sailing for a while, and is unsure about the value of certifications.


Just to clarify - 'malyea' (me) is not sure or "unsure about the value of certifications"...that's not what this thread is about. I have no bias one way or the other.

Some folks seeking sail training are drawn in one direction, while others are drawn in the other direction...I'm simply interested in the "how and why" reasoning sailors training in the last 15 years or so decided on which direction to go.....pretty simple question really with no right or wrong answer.

Thanks


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

IMHO, here are the sailing school markets:

1. People who want to take a bareboat charter. These people want a certification of some sort as quickly as possible, then go rent a bareboat.

2. People who want to learn to sail. These people in IMHO are best off on small boats, because small boats teach you about sailing quickly and make sailing intuitive (not navigating, anchors, diesel maintenance, etc). These people are best off in a club or school with small boats, or buying a small boat and learning on their own or with a buddy.

3. People stepping up from item 2 to cruising bigger boats. These people often take power squadron courses or CG Aux courses to learn navigation, safety, to add to their sailing knowledge.

4. People with lots of hours on the water who want to take passengers for hire or just add the book learning to the practical knowledge. These people take USCG 6-pack or masters classes.

I have no idea as to the market size in each category, but I suspect that most people fit into category 2, then after that 1 and 3, and after that a few of us crazies in category 4.

To the OP, if your deal is to create a sailing school, I think you got to pick a target market. I think lots of your responses are people playing around between 1, 2, and 3 with different needs and previous experiences.

Best of luck, anyone supporting sailing has my support.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Initially, I only wanted to be able to charter from any company without any complications. I therefore went the ASA certification route.

I took lessons through a school/club/charter company that provided non-ASA instruction in order to allow you to use their boats. ASA certification was an optional charge to take the ASA test (the on-water instruction was the same). I took the tests, and got the certificates thinking that it would be recognized more readily than my saying that I had sailed with the school/club/organization that I took the lessons through.


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

capecodda said:


> IMHO, here are the sailing school markets:
> 
> 1. People who want to take a bareboat charter. These people want a certification of some sort as quickly as possible, then go rent a bareboat.
> 
> ...


perosnally , I learnt to sail on my uncles "knee", then sailed in my early twenties. I then realised most of the "old salts" had very specific knowledge, but often had large gaps, especially around chart work, navigation ( including celestial ) and other formal under standings.

I, over the next years did RYA, day skipper, Yatchmaster ( upto Ocean) , RYA powerboat and advanced powerboat, CEVNI, various radio tickets to GOC, then I did the ASA courses to boot!. All this involved over 15,000 miles of actual sailing . I went on to qualify as instructor in various disciplines. that was now over 20 years ago, Then I went mile building, doing deliveries, skippering for free etc. I pushed the boundaries sailing out of season too !!.

Personally formal learning coupled with experience is a great way to build knowledge, Either on its own does make a good rounded sailer.

I thought various night classes in navigation, and on the water sailing instruction, I think the categories of people that want structured learning are

1. Newbies that have no access to boats
2. Partners of sailors that want to get more knowledge( usually women) 
3. Sailors that realise they don't know everything, especially navigation
4. People looking for entry into the super yacht industry ( RYA YM)
5. A small group are professionals that need certain tickets.

Some people come back to courses , again and again, especially on water ones, they just like the idea of group learning i think

whatever floats your boat


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

I started out as a total newbie in my mid-30s. I had been on a sailboat exactly once, fell in love, and wanted to learn how to sail. 

I signed up for a 2-day intro to sailing course at a local marina. They allowed graduates of the class to take out their Flying Scots at a reduced rate. I wanted to both learn the basics of sailing and have access to some boats. It was a good affordable choice to see if sailing was for me.

After a few years sailing at their marina, however, I felt like my learning curve was slowing. Sure, I could sail the boat, and have a lovely evening on the water. Occasionally the weather would pick up unexpectedly and test my skill. But because I didn't have an engine I didn't dare go far from the marina. I got bored sailing the same stretch of river. I began, in other words, to long for my own boat. A bigger boat.

So I found my boat. Once I had her, I was faced with the fact that while I could sail, I had extremely limited seamanship skills. I didn't know how to control a single engine boat under power. Every time I untied from the dock was a new adventure in figuring out what the wind would do to my bow at slow speeds in tight spaces. My new slab reefing system puzzled me - one day I'd set it up fine, the next day everything went to hell. "How Boat Things Work" became my bedtime reading. 

I debated hiring a local instructor to help me with this next stage of learning. I'm still debating it. But a last minute spot opened up in a ASA docking course, and I impulsively signed up. I finished the course yesterday. It was a great class. In many ways, it was better to learn a lot of that stuff on a boat that wasn't mine. But I'll definitely be working over the next few days translating the material to my boat, my slip. I wouldn't be doing that if I'd hired a local instructor to teach me on my own boat.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Can anyone name a single accomplished sailor - that is, a famous racing skipper/tactician or well-known, published cruising expert (not one of the self-proclaimed, certified experts advertising their designations here) - who actually learned sailing by taking classroom courses?

I didn't think so...

Do any of you believe that even a bare majority of accomplished sailors learned in the classroom?

Um, no...


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Opinions are a necessary evil and unavoidable...we all have 'em and they all stink - except our own  .... 

Maybe another thread could be started to debate the "best way to learn" but this thread is intended to just hear 'why' newer sailors chose their route - certificated or non-certificated training.

I continue to be interested in hearing from folks who've paid for sail training in the last 15 years, especially if you can answer these questions...

WHICH route did you choose - either a) certificated course through ASA, etc or b) non-certificated school like "Capt Bob's Sailing School?

WHY did you chose your school?

In hindsight, are you SATISFIED with your choice?

Cheers!


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Sorry Malyea - welcome to an internet forum - you can't control the responses to a thread for your specific purpose.

If you could, that would be a commercial, not a discussion.

This isn't supposed to be a commercial, is it?


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

While in the Navy (back in the early 80's) they had a complete sailing program (makes sense... Navy, boats, history). They approached it like everything else in the Navy, like a qualification; start with the basics and work your way up. My Navy Certification records to this day have helped with insurance fees and rentals (charters). Probably not accepted most places, but it worked for me.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jameswilson29 said:


> Can anyone name a single accomplished sailor - that is, a famous racing skipper/tactician or well-known, published cruising expert (not one of the self-proclaimed, certified experts advertising their designations here) - who actually learned sailing by taking classroom courses?
> 
> I didn't think so...
> 
> ...


as brash and hard as this sounds...the reality, especially in places like france, britain, new zealand and many other extremely sail heavy countries is THIS.

you are reared on boats, you sail and live and experience it as a TRADITION.

there are very very very very very very few sailors, that say learned middle aged, took courses started going up and up and better and better and then became experts and master mariners...i would venture to say its less than .5 percent of sailors worldwide.

ther are exceptions, like say the firt american black man(forgot his name) to sail around the world...who learned at a ripe age...or some japanese sailors who all of a sudden decided they are going to sail a 15 footer solo non stop around the world

but as a whole james statement is absolutely true.


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Dave_E said:


> While in the Navy (back in the early 80's) they had a complete sailing program (makes sense... Navy, boats, history). They approached it like everything else in the Navy, like a qualification; start with the basics and work your way up. My Navy Certification records to this day have helped with insurance fees and rentals (charters). Probably not accepted most places, but it worked for me.


FWIW, that's how I got started in 1973; Flying Scotts, Basic Navy Sailing Course and I'm of the opinion that with every new endeavor - flying, driving, skateboarding, sky diving, windsurfing, etc - I've always benefited from some amount of 'formal instruction' - followed by years of 'practice makes perfect' ... or at least significant improvement .

Every one chooses their own path and I'd enjoy continuing to hear from more folks about WHY they chose the path they chose.

Sooo...

WHICH route did you choose - either a) certificated course through ASA, etc or b) non-certificated school like "Capt Bob's Sailing School?

WHY did you chose your school?

In hindsight, are you SATISFIED with your choice?

Thanks


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## alctel (Jan 25, 2014)

As a complete newbie to sailing, I did a CYA basic cruising certification, probably because I'm from an IT background and used to courses and that kind of structure. It got me an insurance discount as well .

I however then followed it up with a couple of days of instruction on my boat from a private instructor - best of both worlds!


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

alctel said:


> As a complete newbie to sailing, I did a CYA basic cruising certification, probably because I'm from an IT background and used to courses and that kind of structure. It got me an insurance discount as well .
> 
> I however then followed it up with a couple of days of instruction on my boat from a private instructor - best of both worlds!


Thanks, appreciate the Reply, sounds like a good mix of sailing course work and private instruction. I think you're off to a great start!

Happy Sails!


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## John Casey (Mar 3, 2014)

Maltyea, another argument about certified courses paying for themselves could be when you buy insurance. 

Regardless of the relationship you have with your broker, the underwriter may require documentation/certification for a preferred rate or even just coverage. 

They are not concerned about you as an individual at that level, most times. Just their algorithms and mitigating their financial risk. 

I have no personal experience having this issue with boat insurance, but I have with car insurance, and a lot of them are the same parent companies. 

Lots of stories out there of folks that have circumnavigated and now can't get insurance due to no courses complete. All anecdotal, but a thought nonetheless.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

My husband and I went to a certified school in Colchester, VT, the International Scool of Sailing for ASA 101. Best experience we've ever had! Really! 
Nancy


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## Backloop1 (Dec 29, 2010)

As beginners a couple of years ago, we signed up for ASA 101 with Lanier in PCola Bay. They did a great job of introducing us to the joys of sailing in a very concise, organized & manageable way. By going with Lanier, we were able to join & access their fleet of 20-26' boats to then get out on our own and practice what we were taught. Reading the books, learning from the certified instructors & then time on the water was a great way to get into this wonderful sport. They presented the course with a good combination of hands on time on the water and classroom to review and present some of the theoretical techniques. We have since purchased a boat, gaining experience, and have just signed up for ASA 103 in south FL this Christmas to supplement a vacation we had in the works. We have our goals and are progressing towards them while having a blast.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Finding a good instructor, one whose teaching style is compatible with your learning style, is the key. What syllabus they use is way down the priority list. I do agree that a recognized certification will allow for bareboat renting earlier on your curve. With some, the day after you are certified. 

While some can learn from a book, based upon their aptitude, that same aptitude would have launched them into proficiency much sooner with quality instruction. 

I bought Offshore Sailing School, Fast Track to Cruising, lessons for my wife for her birthday (second wife). She became a very competent, fair weather, coastal sailor in one week. Really.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

John Casey said:


> ...Lots of stories out there of folks that have circumnavigated and now can't get insurance due to no courses complete. All anecdotal, but a thought nonetheless.


Please post a few links to these stories from the people who actually had this happen to them. I'd be very interested to hear about them.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

TakeFive said:


> Please post a few links to these stories from the people who actually had this happen to them. I'd be very interested to hear about them.


There are none. He just made it up to sell sailing schools, which is the purpose of this thread.

There are many undisclosed commercial interests on Sailnet. They start threads to advertise their service or product. This thread is basically a commercial for the gullible.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> There are none. He just made it up to sell sailing schools, which is the purpose of this thread.
> 
> There are many undisclosed commercial interests on Sailnet. They start threads to advertise their service or product. This thread is basically a commercial for the gullible.


What clue are you seeing? The OP suggests both methods and even suggests PM to reply, if one chooses.

It might be a research project for a commercial interest, to see what people's preferences are, but I don't see a sales job here.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

jameswilson29 said:


> There are none. He just made it up to sell sailing schools, which is the purpose of this thread.
> 
> There are many undisclosed commercial interests on Sailnet. They start threads to advertise their service or product. This thread is basically a commercial for the gullible.


Were you abused as a child by a sailing school? Did a sailing school steal your first girlfriend? Did a sailing school kick sand in your face at the beach?

Maybe for some people they're a waste of money. For others they work out well.

I decided I wanted to sail. I joined a club with 16' boats, but I wanted to sail bigger boats. I bought a 22' boat, but I still want to sail bigger boats. I dropped some cash on a school (to stay on topic, it was an ASA school). I learned a lot in a short time, and now I have a silly little book with stickers in it. This silly little book lets me rent the big boats I want to sail. Without the sailing school I'd be limited to sailing my little 22' boat. But according to you I'm a sucker for taking the classes?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

jameswilson29 said:


> There are many undisclosed commercial interests on Sailnet. They start threads to advertise their service or product. This thread is basically a commercial for the gullible.


If you can substantiate this with specifics I'm sure the moderators would be pleased with the information.

You may find that they have already addressed such issues as they arise.

There are certainly some of us commercially engaged (MaineSail, btrayfors, and I come to mind). Would you prefer we not share what we know?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I am not as strongly anti-school as James is. But there is a lot of pro-certification misinformation being spread on this thread, and I do want people to be called out for it.

This myth of lots of seasoned circumnavigators being unable to get insurance because they don't have certification is a pants-on-fire lie. Since it was presented as "lots of stories" maybe it's not quite a lie, as long as the "stories" are revealed as fiction.


Minnesail said:


> ...I bought a 22' boat, but I still want to sail bigger boats. I dropped some cash on a school (to stay on topic, it was an ASA school). I learned a lot in a short time, and now I have a silly little book with stickers in it. This silly little book lets me rent the big boats I want to sail. Without the sailing school I'd be limited to sailing my little 22' boat. But according to you I'm a sucker for taking the classes?


This is yet more misinformation. You don't need certification to charter large boats. And your certification, alone, does not guarantee that you would be allowed to charter big boats.

Charterers need to protect their boats and want evidence of sufficient sailing experience to safely charter the type of boat you are requesting in their local waters. That evidence comes in the form of a sailing resume that may (or may not) include certifications. Certifications alone will not be sufficient. Demonstrated experience will easily overcome a lack of certifications.

Charterers also want your business, and in my experience they will not erect unnecessary barriers to your chartering. They just want you to demonstrate sufficient capability.

So if you bought someone's story that your silly little sticker book is the only reason you can charter larger boats, then you may be a sucker.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> ....You don't need certification to charter large boats. And your certification, alone, does not guarantee that you would be allowed to charter big boats.


While you are correct, I think you are also being a bit misleading. If you take the right certified course, you could charter a 30 or 40 ft bareboat the day you finish. Zero experience, other than the previous 7 days. You would only be limited to roughly the size boat you trained upon and possibly the region you trained within.

For example, step off the Offshore Sailing Bareboat cert course in the BVI and the Moorings will have your bareboat fueled and ready to go, if you're so inclined. In fact, your final test on the last day is to take the boat yourself, with no instructor aboard, to another island and bring it back the next morning. Six days prior, you didn't know what a halyard did.



> Charterers need to protect their boats and want evidence of sufficient sailing experience to safely charter the type of boat you are requesting in their local waters. That evidence comes in the form of a sailing resume that may (or may not) include certifications.


This is also correct. However, the points being made are for those without a sailing resume. It will take you time to build one. As I noted, you can be eligible in 7 days otherwise.



> Certifications alone will not be sufficient. Demonstrated experience will easily overcome a lack of certifications.


This is half correct. Demonstrated experience is sufficient, if you have it. However, the right certification will work alone, in some circumstances.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> If you take the right certified course, you could charter a 30 or 40 ft bareboat the day you finish. Zero experience, other than the previous 7 days.


In many places all you need is a good credit rating to charter anything you want. Consider Rick Moore's seminal work Credit Card Captains which has been linked to many times before.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> In many places all you need is a good credit rating to charter anything you want. Consider Rick Moore's seminal work Credit Card Captains which has been linked to many times before.


It's a classic.

I don't think, however, that these boats are truly rented with just a credit card. I will bet the sailing resumes are fraudulent or exaggerated and the charter companies do little to nothing to check them out. It may even suggest that certification is more likely to be legitimate experience.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> I am not as strongly anti-school as James is. But there is a lot of pro-certification misinformation being spread on this thread, and I do want people to be called out for it.
> 
> This myth of lots of seasoned circumnavigators being unable to get insurance because they don't have certification is a pants-on-fire lie. Since it was presented as "lots of stories" maybe it's not quite a lie, as long as the "stories" are revealed as fiction.
> 
> ...


I ask this truthfully

how do charterers ask you to demonstrate knowledge these days? I know you just came back from a chater right?

how does one get a bareboat charter these days?

In my case I have the experience and some certifications including and old 50 ton masters that I never renewed...

what is the typical charter outfit these days request and or need from us?

THANKS

ps. I ask becauase we are planning to move, and my incomplete boat will be left down here...plus I wouldnt mind "renting" and sailing a new boat that works well looks nice and all I have to do is sail it with the family...and have fun...jajaja


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

In my case, chartering out of the Apostle Islands in Lake Superior, my silly little sticker book was not enough. This particular charter company does not trust an ASA certification and wants a check-out sail. I was lucky in that that my teacher was also one of their check-out captains, so she vouched for me and my little sticker book let me rent a big boat. 

Also I note that all three of my ASA school teachers varied from the curriculum in on way or another. They all felt that ASA had a few things wrong and so they taught them another way. I'm not sure what this says about ASA or lessons in general.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnesail said:


> In my case, chartering out of the Apostle Islands in Lake Superior, my silly little sticker book was not enough. This particular charter company does not trust an ASA certification and wants a check-out sail. I was lucky in that that my teacher was also one of their check-out captains, so she vouched for me and my little sticker book let me rent a big boat...


This statement disproves what you said before. As I said, certification alone is not sufficient. You need a resume and people to support it with references. And if you have that, the certification is not even necessary. Which is what I was saying is the case with most charter companies.

I don't deny that if you go to one particular charter company's own school, they may let you charter the next day. They kind of have to, otherwise it's false advertising. In fact, they probably prefer to charter the next day, because if you wait a year or three without practicing your skills, your quickie lessons will be forgotten. There is no substitute for real sailing experience in a variety weather conditions and different places, and that is truly the safest way to prepare yourself to charter a larger boat.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

christian.hess said:


> I ask this truthfully
> 
> how do charterers ask you to demonstrate knowledge these days? I know you just came back from a chater right?
> 
> ...


I think that with your experience you will have no problem finding a charter.

Here's my experience.

I bought my Catalina 250 in March 2010, and have sailed it 1-2 times a week during the season since then. I learned to sail from my girlfriend's father 30 years prior to that, and had rented Sunfishes and other lateen rigs a few times over the next 20 years. I bought a Phantom sailing dinghy in 2000. My Catalina 250 was my first and only experience with a ballasted sloop. I had no certifications, but everyone told me that after 10 years sailing a dinghy (with no capsizes), this boat would be easy. Just to be sure, I hired an instructor to come out with us first time. Sailing this boat was a piece of cake. Sure, I've had a lot to learn, but have never come close to losing control or having any kind of dangerous encounter.

In February 2011 I took ASA 105 coastal navigation, my only certification. That same month I booked a charter for June - a Catalina 36 in Rock Hall, MD. The charter company wanted a summary of my experience and three references. I gave them a 100% accurate summary of my experience - no exaggeration at all. They personally called every one of my references. The charter went great, even though we had a variety of conditions. The furler was incorrectly installed and jammed every time we tried to let out the genoa because the fairlead was not placed at a 90 degree angle to the drum. Because of my EXPERIENCE (limited as it was) I immediately recognized the problem. Because of my EXPERIENCE I knew to bring leather roping gloves with me. Every time we unfurled the genoa, I had to go to the foredeck and guide the furling line onto the drum using my gloved hand. I think this demonstrates that experience owning your own boat (even for only a year) is far greater qualification than any quickie cruising course.

By the way, after 4 seasons sailing my boat I called back the instructor who did my private lesson and ASA 105 and told him I wanted to challenge the ASA 101 test, and he refused to let me. "I've got boats to pay for so I don't do challenges. But I have an open spot in my ASA 101 course next weekend so you can take the course [and pay me $400 for a seat that would otherwise be empty]." I had hired this guy for my private lessons, took his ASA 105 course, and hired him to do sail repairs (he did a lousy job, by the way), and he's refusing to let me challenge the test. It left me with a real negative impression of ASA courses. He's never getting any of my business again.

My charter in January 2013 was a 38 footer with Sunsail. They also wanted a sailing resume and references. I provided them through Ed Hamilton Co, who was my charter agent. I never heard of any issues. I assume that, having successfully chartered out of Rock Hall, they would automatically approve me.

In August 2013 I rented a Catalina 25 in Kirkland, WA from a sailing club. They were actually the toughest I encountered. I kept getting their sailing instructors on the phone, and they told me I had to be certified, even for a one-day rental. They offered to let me challenge the test, but I was going to be visiting family and didn't want to waste a half day of our limited vacation time in Seattle. It was frustrating because I wouldn't mind challenging the test and getting the cert, but this wasn't the right time. I finally managed to call them when the owner was in, and after a few minutes on the phone discussing my experience with him, he approved it.

My point is this: Charterers want your business. They don't want you to wreck their (or others') boats. So basically they want you to demonstrate a history of sailing. Certification alone doesn't do this. Experience does, especially if you own your own keelboat, even for just a year. That was enough for me to be able to charter.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

thanks man

the reason I say this is that I had a similar club experience with an outfit in san francisco

basically with masters ticket in hand to rent a keelboat they wanted me to do a gazillion things and hours on boats paying of course before going on a crewed boat...not even close to doing so by myself

in any case

Im glad they want experience over "papers" on many charter outfits...

do you have some sort of format that you presented your experience with or was it a standard sailing cv format?

do they test you, or ask you to show physical competence in some way?

I dream of taking my new family to the caribean and sailing there without physically taking my boat...given my current circumstances its more likely....

thanks for your input

christian


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> I think that with your experience you will have no problem finding a charter.
> 
> Here's my experience.
> 
> ...


Ive heard similar things about asa courses...

can you explain to me what challenge a course means? maybe its the language thing but is that sort of a test?

I come from ISAF background since I was a national sailing team coach down here...however its apples and oranges

dont know how being a level 2 coach would help a charter business give the green light per se over something else

I know in the 80s my dad chartered a full blown 45 footer to sail the bahamas with us...and he was the epitomy of experience only no papers sailor...

fwiw


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Take Five... as you know...ASA is like a Franchise, they develop the programs and grant rights to the schools to offer certifications through their instructors. My sense is that they do not do a terrific job of auditing the programs or the vessels. Thus my earlier comment about seeking referrals from former students. 

The guy in your experience who refused to let you challenge the test was just a short-sighted businessman who lost you forever. It happens in every service business. If it happens enough..they disappear and the better ones remain. 

He could have easily asked you to take him or one his instructors sailing for an hour or so..and observed your skills, proctored the exam which takes less than an hour, signed your book and charged you appropriately. You could have even sat for the written exam with the other students

For a few hours of his time..he could have had a return customer and probably a bunch of referrals.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> can you explain to me what challenge a course means? maybe its the language thing but is that sort of a test?


ASA provides for a challenge - instead of taking (and paying for) the full course you can take the examination (which may include practical exercises). If you pass you are certified for that course. The franchisee may charge a reasonable amount for the challenge; it will always be way less than the course cost.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

thanks

so say one would do this(challenge) with the intent to get a certificate for renting and chartering purposes for example or are there other benefits to challenging these courses?

peace


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

christian.hess said:


> thanks
> 
> so say one would do this(challenge) with the intent to get a certificate for renting and chartering purposes for example or are there other benefits to challenging these courses?
> 
> peace


None that I can think of, unless you think at some point you'd want to instruct for them. With your resume and a willing school owner you could skip the student courses and do the Instructor clinics. But then, if the school vessel has a motor you'd need a CG license as well, so you'd have to renew that.

If your only goal is to be able to charter somewhere with your family, I'd probably just put together your sailing resume and some references. Worse case scenario, a company asks you to demonstrate skills or hire a captain for 1/2 day. A few calls to the company will reveal their requirements, they'll all be different. Some may only want yer $$.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

thanks man! 

always learning whats out there...

appreciate the info


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> This statement disproves what you said before. As I said, certification alone is not sufficient. You need a resume and people to support it with references. And if you have that, the certification is not even necessary. Which is what I was saying is the case with most charter companies.


I guess I did vaguely contradict myself.

The place I chartered from runs their own sailing school (no affiliation) and they will obviously rent you a boat if you pass their classes. They will also accept ASA plus a checkout sail, or ASA plus a reference from someone they know.

I do agree that ASA oversells itself.

But I also think they run a good program. I learned a lot, rapidly, that I would otherwise have had a difficult time picking up. I can putter around all day in my 22' boat (and I do!) but that will never teach me anything about diesels, for example.

To the point of the original question, the reason I chose an ASA school instead of an unaffiliated one is that, as a novice, I didn't have enough knowledge to know if Joe Bob's School of Sailing and Taxidermy was any good, whereas the ASA affiliation seemed to offer some sort of minimum level of competency.

For example I would like to try catamaran sailing, so I'm thinking next summer I might take a cruising cat class. I will probably not go the ASA route because it's more expensive and now that I already know a little bit and have talked to people who went with this particular unaffiliated school I think I can say that ASA doesn't offer anything extra (except the little sticker for the silly book). Maybe. I'll see.

Of course there are some here who'd say I was a fool for taking any class. I should just buy a 38' catamaran, or hang out on the dock and ask for rides...


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

I think there is some attempts at painting a black and white scenario here,

for example the RYA yacht master Offshore ticket, is not a "course". Its also way way in advance of what is necessary to charter anything anywhere,

Furthermore you need 3000 sea miles in tidal waters, broken into many voyages, with you as skipper. Then you have a two day on board assessment of your practical skills, including some quite advanced skills, ( ever done a RYA "blind" navigation exercise).

Personally many that denigrate organised learning and examination, are often frightened of the process.

The key to a good sailor is both knowledge ( that can be acquired through organised learning ) and experience, Both together can be better then with one , carried out alone.


dave


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

no arguing there my friend

may I also add the reason I agreed with james statement was that he was I beleive talking about a very specific group of people and it is true...

those hardcore racers start as a tender toddlers and go from optimists all the way up to mod 70 trimaran or vendee globing around the world

its safe to say that they dont go the asa route, as one would naturally guess...they come from a long line of traditional racers...

the french are masters of this...

in any case Id be very hypocritical if Id say that teaching classes and receiving them are useless as I know full on and well how good it feels to teach young kids and old from scarce means and living that otherwise would be in gangs down here and teach them a new sport(and lifestyle)

I was a very proud coach when doing that and really miss doing so...you can see peoples lives changing in front of you for the better...but alas life changes.

peace


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> as brash and hard as this sounds...the reality, especially in places like france, britain, new zealand and many other extremely sail heavy countries is THIS.
> 
> you are reared on boats, you sail and live and experience it as a TRADITION.
> 
> ...


Having leanrt to sail and have sailed in som elf these countries, what you say is a fanciful notion, perhaps true in the 1880s but far from the truth today.

Both the French ( ever tried Glenans !!!) or the British (RYA and by extension the Aussies and Nz) have very advanced and far ranging voluntary learning and examination schemes, ranging from very basic to very advanced. Thousands of sailors go through these every year.

Many sailors today have no connection with the sea, that sort of stuff died out with the age of sail. Many come into the "sport" at early middle age, i.e. when they can afford the time and money to sail and hence the increasingly use of organised learning.

And yes , I personally know very capable sailors who I know started off via the sailing school system, then went off to do great things ( like sailing to Antarctica, and the NW passage) Are they famous , well no, ( they arnt dead yet) , but they might be in the future . Famous sailors, tele to be older and came from an age when organised leisure training simply didn't exist.


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> no arguing there my friend
> 
> may I also add the reason I agreed with james statement was that he was I beleive talking about a very specific group of people and it is true...
> 
> ...


I think to use the very select few international superstars as an example of anything is rather far fetched. These people are not representative of the vast majority of component sailors.

You will also find all these highly competitive sailors, have used very organised "learning" including high performance coaching, advanced learning, skills development, etc, They didn't get where they are just by "experience"

Watch olympic standard sailors being trained. If that isn't school learning at a very high level, I don't know what is.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

goboatingnow said:


> ...
> 
> Personally many that denigrate organised learning and examination, are often frightened of the process.


Where did you come up with this one?

Any factual basis for this statement?

Can you back it up by naming one person who fits your assertion?



Is it just a coincidence that a banner ad for "Live Aboard Sail Course" nautilussailing.com appears below this thread?



Could the "malyea" who started this thread be the same "malyea" who identifies herself as a commercial member on Cruisers & Sailing Forum: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/members/malyea-71766.html

If so, perhaps she would now care to reveal her monetary interest in this matter.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> There are certainly some of us commercially engaged (MaineSail, btrayfors, and I come to mind). Would you prefer we not share what we know?


Sorry, Dave, you don't qualify as an_* UNDISCLOSED*_ commercial interest. You are a FULLY DISCLOSED commercial interest, and I certainly appreciate your comments and those of JonEisberg, MaineSail, Bob Perry, and some of the other true experts on this listserv.

This thread illustrates the problem with *UNDISCLOSED *commercial interests, apart from the essential dishonesty of their approach, that they have an agenda and have no real interest in an honest discussion about the merits of an issue, although they pose as innocent members:

"Are ASA courses merely great, or actually the greatest? Please discuss and contrary opinions are not welcome - start your own thread ('cause this is a commercial)"


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

goboatingnow said:


> Having leanrt to sail and have sailed in som elf these countries, what you say is a fanciful notion, perhaps true in the 1880s but far from the truth today.
> 
> Both the French ( ever tried Glenans !!!) or the British (RYA and by extension the Aussies and Nz) have very advanced and far ranging voluntary learning and examination schemes, ranging from very basic to very advanced. Thousands of sailors go through these every year.
> 
> ...


we are talking about different things here....and I agree with you in what you say

I think as is often the case in some threads we are talking in different contexts...Im specifically talking about racers...

as you can see in my post I also mentioned cases of middle aged people coming into the "sport"

and I dont want to argue this too much but we all know there is a HUGE difference in how the sport is viewed in britain or france compared to say the us...

just look at the differences in spectatorship in the vendee globe when the boats enter and leave port...

when they arrive in san francisco barely any common folk show up...when they leave BREST or some place like that

yes sailing is much bigger and traditionally respected in some countries than others...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

goboatingnow said:


> I think to use the very select few international superstars as an example of anything is rather far fetched. These people are not representative of the vast majority of component sailors.
> 
> You will also find all these highly competitive sailors, have used very organised "learning" including high performance coaching, advanced learning, skills development, etc, They didn't get where they are just by "experience"
> 
> Watch olympic standard sailors being trained. If that isn't school learning at a very high level, I don't know what is.


I think we are simply tallking about different things...

I dont know where you found most of the things you are reffering to in my posts...

simply put there are countries that have a much more traditional sense of sailing, especially offshore sailing and racing versus others

another point I have never said that olympic sailors get to a high level by experience only or that they dont train in higly efficient classes etc

of course they do

I know it as I experienced this help first hand down here when we had higly experienc COI and ISAF coaches come down here to help us out at the federation


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> Where did you come up with this one?
> 
> Any factual basis for this statement?
> 
> ...


Least I be accused of anything, I have no commercial interest in sail training of any kind. But I used to have some involvement as a RYA cruising , VHF, radar etc instructor.

It has been my experience, that many people that denigrated structured learning courses, either (a) didn't understand what was involved or (b) actually when you boiled it down, couldn't actually do some of the theory.

In one example I went sailing with one very experienced skipper, He was very capable, but he couldn't do any real chart plotting to save his life. As to working up a course to steer in a tidal stream, or computing whether he could clear a cill in a marina, that was beyond him and he relied on rote and what "worked before", yes he was able to complete his journeys, but he was the type that could have benefited from some "structured " learning.

Im certainly not going to "name" anyone, as that would embarrass them, like all internet ascertions, you'll just have to take it on trust!.

What I always find funny , is why some people try and denigrate organised sail training. Irrespective of the OPs hidden or not activity, there is a recognised usefullness to any organised learning. Does it make someone an experienced sailor , of course not. But it helps.

IN the age of sail, very structured mid-shipmans apprentice system were in place, they required a certain book learning and also obviously experience. Many navigators and captains were in fact quite young men, often in their 30s, the "old sea dog" is somewhat of a myth. Captains and navigators required numeracy skills that in itself often required a significant form of organised learning.

Today, with no such apprentice program, and the vast majority of sailors, didn't got to sea at 6, their is an advantage, benefit and need to meet people desire for knowledge with appropriate learning. Again it does not make them an experienced sailor, no more then passing a driving test , makes you a race track driver.

But it all helps


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I dont disagree with any of that...

dont know what the argument is either...there are 2 directions in this thread now

one denigrating organised training and the other denigrating commercial interests

none of which have to do with what the op intended to discuss in a good or bad sense...

anywhoo

peace


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Note from the OP - in an effort to quiet the paranoid drumbeat of "commercial interest" regarding this thread, let me say that I am not now, and have never yet been affiliated with, nor had any commercial interest in any sailing school - certificated or non-certificated, anywhere or at anytime 

While I've enjoyed most of the side bar discussion this thread has generated - the purpose of this thread remains as I (the OP) originally intended - and that is...

I continue to be interested in hearing from folks who've paid for sail training in the last 15 or so years, especially if you can answer these questions...

WHICH route did you choose - either a) certificated course through ASA, etc or b) non-certificated school like "Capt Bob's Sailing School?

WHY did you chose your school?

In hindsight, are you SATISFIED with your choice?

Appreciate you folks taking the time to answer - PM is fine if you prefer.

Cheers!


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

jameswilson29 said:


> Sorry, Dave, you don't qualify as an_* UNDISCLOSED*_ commercial interest. You are a FULLY DISCLOSED commercial interest, and I certainly appreciate your comments and those of JonEisberg, MaineSail, Bob Perry, and some of the other true experts on this listserv.


Okay. Thanks. We are on the same page.

I can't speak for the other folks on your list but I do engage with the moderators periodically to make sure something I post is okay since I don't advertise on SailNet but I do have commercial interests.

If you feel someone is inappropriately pushing commercial interests (as opposed to a commercial interest that is giving back to the community) have you notified the moderators? Have you heard back? The little exclamation point point in the red triangle goes straight to the report form. Heck, I reported _myself_ earlier today to be sure I was doing okay. *grin*

If you aren't sure about someone and want another opinion shoot me an e-mail and we can talk about it offline. I have absolutely no authority at SailNet but sometimes another perspective is useful. If I can help I will - [joke] if I agree with you that someone is posting inappropriately I'll drive over to Jeff_H wack him with a rolled up newspaper[/joke].

We all win if the rules are observed and we all stay civil.


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

............... certificated or non-certificated sailing school training?

My interest continues in hearing from folks who've paid for sail training in the last 15 years, especially if you can answer these questions...

WHICH route did you choose - either a) certificated course through ASA, etc or b) non-certificated school like "Capt Bob's Sailing School?

WHY did you chose your school?

In hindsight, are you SATISFIED with your choice?

Cheers!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I got the non-affiliated claim above. So, what is your interest in this topic? I ask because you seem to have some passion for keeping it alive. You've received tons of feedback. Some even to your question.


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> I got the non-affiliated claim above. So, what is your interest in this topic? I ask because you seem to have some passion for keeping it alive. You've received tons of feedback. Some even to your question.


 Ah yes, even some addressing "the question"...

I do feel as though this thread has just about run it's course but I'll periodically pop it up just to catch any stragglers that may not have yet weighed in.

My interest in this is that my passions include sailing (...no surprise in this crowd  ), instructing (developed through careers in both military and commercial aviation) and working with good people.

I think this all may lead to something fun, challenging and rewarding down the road and it's interesting to ask folks questions and listen to their answers...I've learned a lot by doing that over the years .

Cheers!


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## John Casey (Mar 3, 2014)

jameswilson29 said:


> There are none. He just made it up to sell sailing schools, which is the purpose of this thread.
> 
> There are many undisclosed commercial interests on Sailnet. They start threads to advertise their service or product. This thread is basically a commercial for the gullible.


I just got back from a passage to Hammamet, sorry I missed some of the pleasantries on this thread.

James, check my posting IP location if you think I am somehow shilling for some company in the US(?) Too bad you automatically assume the worst of someone you know nothing about. I wish you all the best.

TakeFive, google the subject and you'll find some posted stories around. My experience has been via dock-side conversations (as I said, anecdotal) and that fact that it is actually illegal in some jurisdictions to even operate a vessel without certain qualifications. PCOC in Canada, and ICC in Europe for example. No qual => not legal => no insurance, other than theft/comprehensive while it's sitting on the hard perhaps. Sorry to poke something that is obviously an emotional subject in here. Just trying to help out Malyea and contribute to the forum as a newbie. Good luck to you.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

John Casey said:


> TakeFive, google the subject and you'll find some posted stories around. My experience has been via dock-side conversations (as I said, anecdotal) and that fact that it is actually illegal in some jurisdictions to even operate a vessel without certain qualifications. PCOC in Canada, and ICC in Europe for example. No qual => not legal => no insurance, other than theft/comprehensive while it's sitting on the hard perhaps...


You're changing your story here. This is what I was responding to before:


John Casey said:


> ...Lots of stories out there of folks that have circumnavigated and now can't get insurance due to no courses complete...


So you've gone from claiming that there are lots of people who are skilled circumnavigators who can't get insurance (an absurd claim IMO) to totally unqualified sailors who can't get insurance and are even breaking their local laws by sailing (probably true). But for both of your statements to be true, those lawbreakers with no qualifications will have to have successfully circumnavigated...and you said that there are lots of them!

So I'm asking you to post specific examples. I searched Google and can find none, which supports my belief that these unlawful, uninsurable circumnavigators do not exist. You say they do exist, so I suggest that you do your own Google search and show me.

Good luck.


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## John Casey (Mar 3, 2014)

TakeFive, good Lord. Take yourself less seriously.

Actually my statement was, "I have *no personal experience *having this issue with boat insurance, but I have with car insurance, and a lot of them are the same parent companies.

Lots of *stories *out there of folks that have circumnavigated and now can't get insurance due to no courses complete. All *anecdotal*, but a thought nonetheless."

You want specific examples of stories/anecdotes? If I used the word apocryphal would you feel better?

So here's one *story* I heard, and have *no person experience with*, from a couple places about a boat called Bumfuzzle. I just Googled "Bumfuzzle no insurance" and their blog popped up for april 24 2007 : fort Lauderdale:

"Hello, BoatUS."
"Hi, I'm calling to check on the status of my application for insurance."
"Okay, let me check." Tap, tap, tap. "I'm sorry your application has been denied due to a lack of boating experience."
"Seriously? We just sailed around the world."
"Yes, but it says here that your prior boating experience was limited to a 16 foot fishing boat."
"Yeah, prior to living on this boat full time for nearly four years and sailing it around the world."
"Hmmm. So where is this boat coming from?"
"Our last port you mean? The Dominican Republic."
"That's outside of the U.S. right? Okay, since this boat has been out of the country I would need a current survey."
"But we just want liability insurance, what does it matter what the boat is worth if we don't want you to pay for it? Besides, the only reason I need insurance is in order to be able to get the boat hauled out for a survey."
"Yes, that is a bit of a problem. I'm sorry I really must have a current survey in order to insure your boat. And even then, with your lack of boating experience I really don't think we could issue you coverage. Unless, perhaps&#8230;have you taken any boater safety courses?"
"Thanks for your help." Click.

Yes, you are absolutely right that I added the latest bit about unqualified boaters to try and allay the fears that I'm shilling for some company.

Now can we move onto something else now?


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

John Casey said:


> Yes, you are absolutely right that I added the latest bit about unqualified boaters to try and allay the fears that I'm shilling for some company.
> 
> Now can we move onto something else now?


How 'bout .... certificated or non-certificated sailing school training?

My interest continues in hearing from folks who've paid for sail training in the last 15 years, especially if you can answer these questions...

WHICH route did you choose - either a) certificated course through ASA, etc or b) non-certificated school like "Capt Bob's Sailing School?

WHY did you chose your school?

In hindsight, are you SATISFIED with your choice?

Cheers!


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

First. I don’t fit your profile. For me its not only been over 15 years. But I’ve done both. 
Learning first by experience. Having been a motor boater most of my life. 
Started sailing on a sail training vessel. The goal there is not so much about leaning to sail but about life. One learns a bit about sailing along the way.

My first formal sailing course was an instructor course. 
I learned quite a bit. 
I taught basic sailing for CYA. I learned while teaching.

I did both intermediate and advanced levels.
I learned something on each course. 
I found them all worth while even though I only did the more advanced course as policy changed at CYA and the sailing school I had a relation ship with.

What is funny today I sail my own boat with my wife and kids. None of whom have done a course.
One might think sailing with me they would be very well taught. 
This would be wrong. My wife’s knowledge is a bit more than minimal.
My kids know what they are required to. To help crew and not much more. 
If I try and teach they tune out and want to stay home. 
They all know much more than someone who has never sailed. 
When friends sail with me. I am not an instructor following an agenda or curriculum. I am a friend who will allow them to choose there own level of participation. 
I can sail the boat myself. Or I can show them what they need to know to help. 

The answer fits different peoples circumstances differently what works for one doesn’t for another.

My wife and kids don’t like course‘s. They will never do one. 

Even if you have sailed a lot with friends you will learn something worth while from the right course.

Fortunately they are optional.

My belief is its the quality of the instructor which matter's not the piece of paper.


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

Just a question or two for the OP.

I noted you instructed in the millitry and aviation.

Are you contemplating becoming a recreational Sailing Instructor?

Are you contemplating instruction unafiliated? or afiliated to an Organisation?


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Uricanejack said:


> Just a question or two for the OP.
> 
> Are you contemplating becoming a recreational Sailing Instructor?


 Yes, at some time in the future.



Uricanejack said:


> Are you contemplating instruction unafiliated? or afiliated to an Organisation?


 Yes, I see benefits to either or some combination of both.


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

One more time...around the room...anyone else care to add their perspective -

.......certificated or non-certificated sailing school training?

I'm interested in hearing from folks who've paid for some type of formal sail training in say the last 15 years, _especially if you can answer these questions_...

WHICH route did you choose - either -
a) certificated course through ASA, etc or 
b) non-certificated school like "Capt Bob's Sailing School"?

WHY did you chose your school and/or type of school?

In hindsight, are you SATISFIED with your choice?

Would you recommend your choice and why?

Cheers and Thanks!


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