# Bilge pumps, water in the boat and you.



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Today, before traveling out of Canadá, I decided to buy Sail Magazine, to read while on the plane.

In it, was a page and half account of a guy that during a passage had his prop shaft bearing leak into the boat. He had over a foot of water inside.

His problem was, that since he was sailing, the boat was heeled and the water inside never could get to his bilge pumps that are in the center line of his boat. (He decided not to stop sailing due to sea condition, and also because sailing he was approaching land). So he removed the water by hand while the wife sailed, and his 6 YO daughter passed the water out. In the mean time he managed to reduce the ingress of water.

I have sailed many years, and had a boat almost completely sink 1 mile off the coast, around 1986, while I fought to steer it to land, (that's when I lost the girlfriend, but that’s another story), many years ago....but never really experienced a situation where the boat was actually taking water thru shaft seals, thru hull or other type of situation.

I admit, that off all things at sea, water entering the boat is my biggest fear and the only thing that really freaks me out, even thinking about….Tommyt and Val, may well remember that when sailed together I kept going back to remove “waters” inside. (I had a shower pump fail a few weeks before and some water was still inside certain compartments I had no access to. So as we sailed it passed thru and appeared under certain floor boards. Not much one or two buckets, but pissed me off.

That’s all fixed and I had the builder open accesses to those areas, and believe it or not, just in case I asked him to install bilge pumps there, just in case.

So, the article really touched me as it is my biggest fear as I said, and as a consequence of my “fear” I have pumps everywhere on my boat.

My hull is pretty flat, and the deepest bilge is 1 foot deep, where the keel is, elsewhere its only inches deep. I also don’t have many bilges as all the space underneath the boat floor is water tank or diesel tank, but, there are a few spaces.

I have presently 6 electric bilge pumps (don’t laugh, I’ll explain why), plus 2 separate portable electric pumps with hoses attached operating from the 12Volt cigarette lighter and 2 hand pumps.

My pump inventory is as follows:

I have a bilge pump in the keel box, that is always dry, and one in the engine compartment, that due to the shape of my hull is almost at the same height as the floor panels.

I have 2 heads, each has a shower pump, and then in the compartments created underneath the head floors, (where I had water accumulate once), I have 2 extra pumps, one in each head, just in case, and small hatches to access these spaces.

What I would like to know is how many of you had sea water getting in the boat, not occasional hatches open or rain, but water quantity that your boat could sink.

How did you cope with it, how and where are your pumps, and anything else you may add.

I really need your input in this, as I must understand more about what you guys did, and gain from your real experiences.

It occured to me, that since my boat is almost 14 feet beam, it would take a lot of water on one side until it reached the center line of the boat, so I envisioning the installation of 2 more pumps, stbd and port, under the salon cabinets on the floor of these, to prevent against this possible situation. But then I would have 8 bilges...I'm not that crazy...am I???

Please refrain from joking on this thread and true stories only. Please

I appreciate your experiences and input.

Thank you 

Alex


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

On my boat, I don't have a problem with water getting into the bilge, except by user error. The bilges on my boat are relatively shallow...two-inches or so deep, and I don't have most of the holes through the bottom that monohulls have—no prop shaft packing gland, no engine cooling through-hull, no in-hull exhaust, etc. 

On several boats I've done the work on, I've installed two bilge pumps along the centerline of the boat, as well as one on each side to help when the boat is sailing. One of the two along centerline is a small "maintenance" pump which has the float switch down as low as possible, and is a really small pump—mainly to deal with the leaks from the stuffing box and such. The other three electric pumps are high volume bilge pumps, for dealing with large volumes of water, whether from the cockpit being pooped, or a leaking through-hull. The float switches for the port and starboard pumps are slightly outboard of the pump strainer, to help make sure the pumps won't be switched on unless necessary. 

If the bilge has separate sections, due to bulkheads, floors or stringers, I'll generally either drill limber holes or, in the case of watertight bulkheads, install another pump. 

I try to keep the hoses as short as possible and the rise as little as possible to help the pumps maximize their output. I prefer the mini-diagphragm pumps, rather than impeller-based pumps, since they can pass small objects more easily. 

I also usually install a high-capacity manual bilge pump accessible from the cockpit. On a larger boat, I might also have a high-capacity manual pump in the cabin someplace. The reason for the manual bilge pumps is in case of electrical failure or to assist in the case of a lot of water coming in.


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## southerncross31 (Sep 16, 2006)

My bilge at first glance is a bottomless pit, extending well past the bottom of the 42 gallon fuel tank glassed into the keel cavity. In reality it is about 41/2' at the deepest spot . I can't imagine how much water it could hold but I hope not to find out! I've dropped several stainless bolts and other non magnetic stuff down there that i can't reach!! My hull is only 9'6 wide and not very flat so all water ends up in the bottom of the keel. Right now i only have 1 bilge pump, a large whale gusher locate in a locker in the cockpit. I bought an electric one but haven't installed it yet. The odd thing is that my bilge satys totally dry. I guess replacing all of the thruhulls helped. I thought for sure it was going to be a damp old boat


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Of course it really depends on whether the boat has a wine-glass hull profile, like your Southern Cross or a flatter profile, like Giu's custom beastie. With the wine-glass profiles, it is far less important to have outboard bilge pumps, since the bilge is generally a lot deeper and not affected as much by the angle of heel or which tack the boat is on. On my friend's Cape Dory 30, we installed four pumps: a maintenance pump, a high volume electrical pump and manual pumps in both the cabin and cockpit.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

My personal tail of horror happened earlier this year when I had a new stern gland fitted. Everything looked cool when she was up on the slips but looks can be deceiving.

When we put her back in I decided to see how she was moving with her nice clean hull so I went for a quick spin around the bay near our mooring. When I got back to the mooring and killed the engine I thought I could hear an odd sound so went a looking. The gland had come completely off the shaft and water was streaming in. It was already within a inch or two of the floorboards (and we have quite a deep bilge). No way was the electric pump going to cope, although I managed to keep the level steady with the manual pump. Alone on the boat this left me in a no win situation cos if I stopped pumping to try and fix the problem we were sunk, literally. Things looked grim, particularly as the yard had already started hauling two other boats so running her back up was not an option. (I'd invoked Sod's Law of the Sea as our spare electric pump was off the boat for service.)

Ah but the gods of modern technology came riding to the rescue. Phoned Ms Wombat at the office on my mobile, she rang the mechanic , who threw a portable pump into his workboat and rushed out to our mooring. The extra pump took care of the water, he reattached the gland and we spent the rest of the afternoon beating the crap out of his offsider who had incorrectly attached the gland. 

So, although I'd checked the bilges after we came off the slips the problem only reared it's ugly head went I put her into gear and opened up the throttle. 

The obvious lessons learnt were

Always have at least one spare high capacity bilge pump, even if it is a portable.
Don't just check the bilges when your boat first goes back into the water , do it again when the engine is running and in gear.
Keep a change of underwear on the boat at all times.  
Most importantly, heed the words of the late great Douglas Adams and "DONT PANIC".  

A very chastened Wombat after that experience but it was almost worth it to hear Ms Wombat's reaction to "Now just shutup and listen. I don't have time to explain, Raven is sinking. Ring Alan and get him out here pronto." 

Ah such fun.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Glad you and Raven made it back safely... however, not much stinks as bad as soggy wombat...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

not even a dry wombat? (Sorry, couldn't resist.)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

ROFL... mean werebeagle...and us doggies don't have much to say about it...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

werebeagle said:


> not even a dry wombat? (Sorry, couldn't resist.)


Dry Wombat smells sweet. Damp Wombat somewhat on the nose. Funnily enough I hear that my cousin the beaver when wet is highly prized, particularly if neatly trimmed. 

(I can hear Alex grinding his teeth and Cam sharpening his blue pencil.)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'm a firm believer in two electric pumps and a manual pump at minimum...just me though


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Giul...

On the crossing from Houston to Cork, we could not figure why the bilge level kept rising. The stern gland was not leaking, yet it kept coming in, from aft. Between two-hour watches, the ship was taking, we estimated, about 25 gallons, but the pump easily kept ahead of it. It was the helmsman's duty to throw the pump at the end of each watch. Sometime it was forgotten and you'd hear it gurgling around. The ship has a very deep bilge though... a double-ender. The motoring seemed to be loosening it with time. Anyway, the final drive coupling let go, for other reasons I think, and the shaft was wired off so it would not spin, and left so.


It was concerning, but the pump was reliable, and kept performing.

Now I have two pumps, the larger being able to shift, it is claimed, 1 gal per second. It draws 18 ampere and would need the alternator to help, longterm. the original one is still in there, and working.

When I got to Cork, I lifted the ship and began the long task of fixing it. The water was coming in OUTSIDE the stern tube. In one of those marvellous Tiawanese short-cuts, the stern tube had been laid up with resin and chopped wood as the filler. Can you imagine? 

Anyway, the helpful Cork Boat Yard did the final re-bedding after I had dug it all out of there. It does not leak now, apart from the usual drip of the shaft seal.

You seem ill at ease with the bilge shape on your ship. You have plenty of pumps, and with checking, they will all work if needed. If you are worried about the water swilling around, then I suppose if you were taking water you could right her reasonably and send a crew member to the switchgear and begin the fight to stop the leak.

I setlled for two pumps... one wee, one big.... both deep in the bilge.

There are some extremely high volume pumps available that couple to the prop shaft directly and can shift serious volumes. I looked for the link, but could not find it. It was a Dutch outfit if I remember.

If it really troubles you, you could take on board a wee dedicated diesel pump of the type used by coastguards to save a ship. Perhaps a diesel one is available. I would expect them to shift some serious water, and the diesel would run and run off a Jerry can.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just be aware that most pumps are rated in GPH, and even a small hole below the waterline will overwhelm them. Also, bilge pumps are rated with no head, and if you've got three feet of head to get the water out of the bilge and out the through-hull, it will be much slower than the nominal rating.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Rockter, my boat (Thank God) is not letting any water in, and I have a saildrive, whose diaphragm will be replaced in March next year.

Water getting in is just a paranoia I have exacerbated by the read of Sail’s article.

My main keel and engine bilge pumps are 1000 Liters/minute, (268Gal/min) the head pumps are 750 Liters/min (198 gal/min). I am sure I have plenty pumps.

My question was to read about stories and real life experiences that I could use as educative stuff, and the same time, asking if it would be stupid to install 2 more (one inside each furniture on port and stbd side, to avoid situations such as experienced by the guy in the article.


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## Wayne25 (Jul 26, 2006)

Gui: 
Are you sure its not Liters per hour, thus gal/hr.?

Also, Do each of these pumps ave their own though hull for the exit pipe connection? If so, That's a lot of holes. High on the hull I would assume.

Wayne


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Rockter, my boat (Thank God) is not letting any water in, and I have a saildrive, whose diaphragm will be replaced in March next year.
> 
> Water getting in is just a paranoia I have exacerbated by the read of Sail's article.
> 
> ...


ALex,
What brand are your pumps ? My primary is 2000 gph. You are saying three times that. I want one.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giu-

What make/model pumps do you have??? Are you sure on those specs??? 268 GPM is over 16,000 GPH... which I find very hard to believe. At eight pounds per gallon roughly, that is 64 tons of water per hour... which is about 2000 cubic feet of water per hour, or a space 20' x 10' x 10' in size.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

actually they discharge on the sink thru hulls, via a Y connector, a loop and a non return valve. This is because my boat heels a lot and thus no need to close the valves. They all hev no return valves.

The Main keel bilge dumps in the kitchen sink thru hull, the engine dumps in a dedicated hole above the water in the transom, and the showers dump in the respective head sink thru hulls, all with Y, loop and check valves.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

ehehehehe

Now I am very confused....I don't remember if they are Gal/min or Liter/min or per hour or....I am checkin on line, ok??


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## Wayne25 (Jul 26, 2006)

Check valves - Add them to your frequently maintained item list!! Its not a matter of if one will fail, Its a matter of when all will fail.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Also, check valves increase the back pressure on the bilge pumps, and drastically reduce their actual output...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

OK

I found the pumps, I'm sorry they are 1100Gal/hour, not 1000liters/minute.

The 2 main are theses here

and the 4 in the heads are these 750Gal/hour.

Sorry for the confusion.

The check valves I use are membrane valves, and cost 3 euros each!!! In 20 years they are the best I found, and have siccessfull been using.

I replace them every year and throw away the old ones.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just FYI—

A 2-inch hole just 2 feet below the waterline will allow 66 gallons a minute or 3,960 gallons per hour into your boat, which is considerably more than the usual 500 gallon per hour bilge pump can handle. 

Also, the 2" hole will add more than a quarter of a ton of seawater per minute. The more water that comes in, the deeper the hole goes in the water, and the faster water will come in — a vicious cycle.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Just FYI-
> 
> A 2-inch hole just 2 feet below the waterline will allow 66 gallons a minute or 3,960 gallons per hour into your boat, which is considerably more than the usual 500 gallon per hour bilge pump can handle.
> 
> Also, the 2" hole will add more than a quarter of a ton of seawater per minute. The more water that comes in, the deeper the hole goes in the water, and the faster water will come in - a vicious cycle.


I'll still go sailing....no worries, mate....


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

This raises another question...will a submerged battery still provide power??


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> This raises another question...will a submerged battery still provide power??


If it's a sealed lead-acid - yes... otherwise, after a lot of poppoing and fizzing and bad smells, probably not.

--Cameron


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cameron-

Salt water will short out most batteries... I don't know what you're thinking... but the only difference between a sealed lead-acid, like an AGM or Gel battery, and a wet-cell, is that the sealed batteries won't produce toxic chlorine gas. 


Hartley18 said:


> If it's a sealed lead-acid - yes... otherwise, after a lot of poppoing and fizzing and bad smells, probably not.
> 
> --Cameron


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

in other words...it does not matter what pumps you have, if your batteries are on the floor of the boat, (as most are), once water gets to them you're done...so why worry...

go sailing


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giu-

That's what the manual pumps are for... a scared sailor can move an awful lot of water with a bucket...


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## Wayne25 (Jul 26, 2006)

SD:
Are you sure 12 volts will have enough potential difference to produce short circuit type of amps? I would think it would only be a slight drain of current. But I don't know and haven't seen anything on this before.


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> in other words...it does not matter what pumps you have, if your batteries are on the floor of the boat, (as most are), once water gets to them you're done...so why worry...
> 
> go sailing


So basically the pumps are pretty much only good for the odd spilled beer or wine then.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I am going to test that theory...I have a battery at home that has a broken stud thinghy. I was going to have it replaced under the guarantee.

I will hook a pump to it and submerge it to see what happens. I will do that when I go home.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

therapy23 said:


> So basically the pumps are pretty much only good for the odd spilled beer or wine then.


Nahh for spilled wine I use my tongue


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Cameron-
> 
> Salt water will short out most batteries... I don't know what you're thinking... but the only difference between a sealed lead-acid, like an AGM or Gel battery, and a wet-cell, is that the sealed batteries won't produce toxic chlorine gas.


I'm thinking that sealed batteries might still work for a short time if there is enough grease on the terminals, the wires and clamps are fully-insulated and there is a decent distance between terminals... but I wouldn't like to try it out and you're right, generally they won't work and will certainly need to be replaced.

Giu, batteries that get saltwater on/in them are really dangerous things and can do lots of damage and should be mounted as high as you practically can - certainly not in the bilges.

--Cameron


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Wayne25 said:


> SD:
> Are you sure 12 volts will have enough potential difference to produce short circuit type of amps? I would think it would only be a slight drain of current. But I don't know and haven't seen anything on this before.


Saltwater is an exceptionally good conductor of electricity since it has lots of ions in it...Na and Cl ions... Granted, it won't short as quickly as dropping a wrench across the posts, but I doubt you'll get more than a few minutes out of it.



Hartley18 said:


> I'm thinking that sealed batteries might still work for a short time if there is enough grease on the terminals, the wires and clamps are fully-insulated and there is a decent distance between terminals... but I wouldn't like to try it out and you're right, generally they won't work and will certainly need to be replaced.
> 
> Giu, batteries that get saltwater on/in them are really dangerous things and can do lots of damage and should be mounted as high as you practically can - certainly not in the bilges.
> 
> --Cameron


The problem with batteries is that they are exceptionally heavy-being made up of lead plates-so should generally be stored as low in the boat as possible, to help keep the boat upright. Also, if they're high up, they have a lot more potential energy if they break loose... I'd hate to have 100 lbs. of battery bouncing around the cabin.... so a good battery box, that is solidly mounted is a necessity IMHO.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> The problem with batteries is that they are exceptionally heavy-being made up of lead plates-so should generally be stored as low in the boat as possible, to help keep the boat upright. Also, if they're high up, they have a lot more potential energy if they break loose... I'd hate to have 100 lbs. of battery bouncing around the cabin.... so a good battery box, that is solidly mounted is a necessity IMHO.


Good point. A sealed battery box is fairly important also to stop acid leaking into the bilge.

Our batteries are mounted in a battery box that is part of the forward buoyancy tank, but I've seen other boats with the engine starting bank down beside the engine and a separate (smaller) radio/bilge pump battery under a cockpit seat which, IMHO, is the best arrangement for cruising.

--Cameron


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hartley-

Battery boxes have to be vented to allow the hydrogen gas that forms when charging the batteries to escape, but need to be able to contain any acid if the batteries burst.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

Back to bilge pumps for a sec...

You also have to remember that your pump has to overcome vertical head to get the water up 4' or 5' out of the bilge and through its thru hull. You also have minimal (negligible) loss due to friction, but we won't count that. That means that when all is said and done, your 500gph pump can only really move 400 to 350gph. Thats why you should have oversized bilge pumps.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

I can tell you for a fact If you drive your stolen car down the boat ramp or off the pier at night the ordinary car battery will keep performing for a least 3 hours and the lights of the car dont go off until, the tow truck pulls it out and disconects the terminals. oh and the windscreen wippers tend to operate at the same time.


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## byrondv (Jan 6, 2007)

SimonV said:


> I can tell you for a fact If you drive your stolen car down the boat ramp or off the pier at night...


This wouldn't happen to be personal experience would it?


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Saltwater is an exceptionally good conductor of electricity since it has lots of ions in it...Na and Cl ions... Granted, it won't short as quickly as dropping a wrench across the posts, but I doubt you'll get more than a few minutes out of it.


I don't think that is right SD. Salt water does conduct, but its a very poor conductor compared to copper wire. So 12V is not going to pass much current between submerged battery terminals compared to the current available to the bilge pump.


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## soul searcher (Jun 28, 2006)

East Penn Claimes their sealed batteries will function under thirty feet of water.http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/assets/base/0139.pdf
It's on page nine of this document.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

soul searcher said:


> East Penn Claimes their sealed batteries will function under thirty feet of water.http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/assets/base/0139.pdf
> It's on page nine of this document.


Thanks matt


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Our new-to-us Pearson P30 has an exceedingly shallow bilge--maybe six inches (15.24 cm) between the bottom of the bilge and the underside of the cabin sole, at its deepest. (I think it's less than that. I'll have to measure it some time.) The most water we've ever had in the boat was after the two-day trip bringing her up from her old home to her new one: About 1-1/2 gal. (a bit over 5-1/2 liters). I pumped it into a bucket with an inexpensize hand pump from WM and tossed it over-board. Another time we had maybe 3/4 of a gallon in there. If the boat sits w/o being used and there's no rain, the bilge stays dry.

Funny thing, tho, yesterday when out there to do some work on her, I found a couple pints or so in the starboard under-setee locker. (Where I keep the tools--what else?) Dunno how it got in there. The only holes in the locker are at each end, where a hose transits the locker. (I believe that'd be the fresh water hose going to the galley.) The water wasn't up to the level of those holes. I _surmise_ it got in there from the bilge when we were heeled-over on last Sunday's outing.

I'm with you, Giu: I dislike bits of water in the boat they we didn't put there on-purpose. So whenever I find it, I either pump or sponge it out.

So far we haven't ended-up with enough water in the boat that a bilge pump, no matter how mounted and no matter how low the float switch, would even come on, much less pump it out--other than that one time.

I've been thinking about a bilge pump (or pumps), but haven't come to a decision yet.

Jim


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## soul searcher (Jun 28, 2006)

Another option is to go with one large pump mounted in an easily accessable place and a manifold with pick ups in various locations. 
And don't forget that in an emergency the raw water pump on you engine will move a good bit of water if you rev it up and put the intake in the bilge.
The through hull on my engine intake has the ability to be closed and be used as a bilge pump. Not much help if you have an outboard

just a thought


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Wouldn't you need some sort of manifold where you selected which pick up to use with one large pump? If no water was present at some locations it would suck air and not water... no?

jef
sv shiva


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## soul searcher (Jun 28, 2006)

Yes, On manifold systems each suction line has a valve at the manifold and generly a foot valve on the end to keep water from returning out of the line when the pump is shut down. This is a manual arangement that requires audiance participation In conjunction with high water alarms its a pretty safe arrangment. it also alows for use of non submersable pumps.
Its a little easer than cutting a bunch of over boards a wiring in several pumps. and probably only practical on boats with watertight divisions. 
Just an option that may work for some.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

SEMIJim said:


> I'm with you, Giu: I dislike bits of water in the boat they we didn't put there on-purpose. So whenever I find it, I either pump or sponge it out.


Actually, a bit of salt water in the bilges is a *good* thing - salt is a preservative and helps stop wood rot (interior timber, etc.) - so don't get too worried about it.

Of course, *too much *salt water can be a bad thing - after all, boats are meant to float... 

--Cameron


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## messenger (Oct 21, 2006)

SanderO said:


> Wouldn't you need some sort of manifold where you selected which pick up to use with one large pump? If no water was present at some locations it would suck air and not water... no?
> 
> jef
> sv shiva


Most larger vessels with a bilge pump manifold, will also have one valve for sea suction, i.e. to a through hull to give, for sure, water to the pump. a few turns of the sea suction, and full open on the valve to the compartment to be pumped. Works great, keeps the pump from burning up, etc. The sea suction can also be plumbed for a deck washdown, and in a pinch, a fire hose.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Hartley18 said:


> Actually, a bit of salt water in the bilges is a *good* thing - salt is a preservative and helps stop wood rot (interior timber, etc.) - ...


I would think the wood being continually exposed to high moisture would trump any benefits to be realized from the salt acting as a preservative. We _are_ talking wood, here, not food .

Besides: Even if it's somehow "good" for wood, it's certainly no good for metal, fiberglass, and just about anything else.

Btw: I'm in freshwater.

Jim


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> actually they discharge on the sink thru hulls, via a Y connector, a loop and a non return valve. This is because my boat heels a lot and thus no need to close the valves. They all hev no return valves.
> 
> The Main keel bilge dumps in the kitchen sink thru hull, the engine dumps in a dedicated hole above the water in the transom, and the showers dump in the respective head sink thru hulls, all with Y, loop and check valves.


 Hi Alex,
Are you happy with this setup? Our boat does not have ANY electric bilge pumps!!!  Of course we do have a manual pump though. I want to get atleast one electric installed in the next week before our trip to Ocracoke. I have the pump already and know where it will go and how to wire, etc.... my problem is figuring out where the drain should go and i thought your setup with the Y and non return valve was a possibility for us. I could maybe run it into the manual drain with a y but not sure that is the best way either. Another option is adding another through-hull but that is the last thing i want to do.

Anyway... Do you find any problems with sharing the through-hull for the sink drain?

Obrigado!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Joel73 said:


> Hi Alex,
> Are you happy with this setup? Our boat does not have ANY electric bilge pumps!!!  Of course we do have a manual pump though. I want to get atleast one electric installed in the next week before our trip to Ocracoke. I have the pump already and know where it will go and how to wire, etc.... my problem is figuring out where the drain should go and i thought your setup with the Y and non return valve was a possibility for us. I could maybe run it into the manual drain with a y but not sure that is the best way either. Another option is adding another through-hull but that is the last thing i want to do.
> 
> Anyway... Do you find any problems with sharing the through-hull for the sink drain?
> ...


Joel, if you ask me if it is the best solution, it is not. It is the best for me and my boat and its purposes.

On my boat I wanted the least amount of hull possible to lower drag, so that is why I use this method.

Since my boat heels a lot, and is quite beamy, having the thru hull on the upper part of the hull was not necessary..all mine are either at the transom, outside the water or I use the sink thru hulls.

I am very happy with it, as it serves MY NEEDS well. You need a good amount of tube so that the drain of the sink does not accidentally drain into the pump.

Here is a small diagram of mine. Note the lower you install the non-return valve, the less water will backflow after the bilge pump stops, and the more stays in the column between the loop and the non return, making hose priming faster.


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

SEMIJim said:


> I would think the wood being continually exposed to high moisture would trump any benefits to be realized from the salt acting as a preservative. We _are_ talking wood, here, not food .
> 
> Besides: Even if it's somehow "good" for wood, it's certainly no good for metal, fiberglass, and just about anything else.
> 
> ...


Jim,
At one time it was common in some parts of the world to have salt stops between the frames just under the deck on wood boats. These were loaded with rock salt. Any fresh water that got past the deck washed out some salt on its trip to the bilge. This kept all the wood below deck highly salted and pickled. I was Sailing Master on a British West Country Ketch and she was well over 100 years old when I joined her. All the wood in the bilge was pickled and hard as nails because she was so salted. I wouldn't do this today because modern stainless is not as resistant to salt as the old puddle iron used in the really old sailing ships. 
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Thanks for the history lesson, Robert. Interesting. One learns something new every day .

Jim


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Relying on submerged batteries to work is a dicey proposition. I've seen 220 volts switches operating just fine under water, but that's a long way from saying that I'd rely on it happening. I profess some curiosity as to why more batteries are not bilge mounted in sealed boxes vented to atmosphere on deck. That would seem to solve all issues.

A note on limber holes. Aside from their propensity to plug with whatever debri is present they are usually too small to be truly effective and larger ones should be doubled to either side of the floor. A case can be made for not drilling limber holes, confining the water to where it's at, and pumping it from there. A 12volt pump mounted on a pole with alligator clips on the wiring ends makes a good portable pump.

As mentioned earlier, stopping the water ingress is far more important than pumping. Keeping even with the flow merely delays the inevitable-when the battery or arms die. Given limited resources, I'd tolerate bilges awash but stable sooner than just keeping up with the deluge.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Very true...and even a small hole is going to overwhelm most bilge pumps. Stopping or drastically reducing the inflow, as much as possible is definitely the first priority. If that isn't possible...all the pumps are going to do is let you sit on the boat a bit longer...then it'll sink.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> Relying on submerged batteries to work is a dicey proposition. I've seen 220 volts switches operating just fine under water, but that's a long way from saying that I'd rely on it happening. I profess some curiosity as to why more batteries are not bilge mounted in sealed boxes vented to atmosphere on deck. That would seem to solve all issues.
> 
> A note on limber holes. Aside from their propensity to plug with whatever debri is present they are usually too small to be truly effective and larger ones should be doubled to either side of the floor. A case can be made for not drilling limber holes, confining the water to where it's at, and pumping it from there. A 12volt pump mounted on a pole with alligator clips on the wiring ends makes a good portable pump..


I have collision bulkheads with limber holes (steel framing). As water has no place in the bilges of a steel boat, there is a single very large and deep bilge aft of the engine. Down there works a Rule 3700 pump, a big bugger that removes the leakage from the stuffing box and any burps from the syphon break in the exhaust loop.

Before we go, I will install the following:

plugs for the limber holes to make the compartment truly watertight when under way.

A largish pump that exits via the sink very much like Alex's set up for the saloon/galley area. There is a stainless "pot" set into the keel that will do nicely for a mounting spot.

A head sump for the shower. This will have a small pump exiting into the head sink drain, but will be switchable with a manual, strum-box type pick-up teed into the Henderson pump on the head. Basically, the last five cm. will be slurped into the toilet and then out. This means the electric pump only deals with whatever happens during a shower to fill the sump, and doesn't pick up "residue".

I have a large capacity Patay manual diaphragm pump that I am going to mount under the pilothouse floor lending directly into the main bilge. Here's a picture (they are really decent manual pumps with a hell of a lot of lift):









Finally, I will put a diverter valve on my sea water intake hose (a mere 3/4", I think), so I can use the engine itself to help get water out until (or if) I can solve the problem. A cheap filter on the end of this should keep the impeller reasonably safe, and the raw water circuit is pretty straightforward, but frankly, if we are sinking, that is the least of my worries.

My old boat has a tiny (five litres?) sump forward of the mast that can fill with rain water if I don't drain it. I have rigged a diverter that uses garden hose teed into the Whale foot pump in the sink to get this out of the boat. Other than that, I have a Whale Gusher manual pump in the cockpit that serves the shallow aft bilge forward of the engine. It's getting tired and is probably due for replacement.


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> Joel, if you ask me if it is the best solution, it is not. It is the best for me and my boat and its purposes.
> 
> On my boat I wanted the least amount of hull possible to lower drag, so that is why I use this method.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the diagram... very helpful. I'm not sure i could use this method though because of where my bilge is in relation to the galley sink. There is not much of a path for piping in between the two. I'm thinking that maybe sharing the throughull for the manual pump may be the best route. That way i can follow parallel w/ the manual line and put the Y after the manual pump. I'll have to investigate more once i get to the boat this evening. I hope to have a plan and finish installation by Monday. Wish me luck!


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## buddabelly (Sep 21, 2007)

*So what if there's a little water in the bilge*

It's a boat! If there's a little water in the bilge so what? That's what the bilge pump is for. I have a little water in my bilge, but not enough to to even pump out. If I did it would fill the hose and when i turned off the pump it would flow back into the bilge. You guys act like your boat going to sink if you have any water at all in the bilge.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

buddabelly said:


> It's a boat! If there's a little water in the bilge so what? That's what the bilge pump is for. I have a little water in my bilge, but not enough to to even pump out. If I did it would fill the hose and when i turned off the pump it would flow back into the bilge. You guys act like your boat going to sink if you have any water at all in the bilge.


When heeled the water is no longer in the bilge but is under the seat lockers, you do need to read the whole thread.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, but a little water in the bilge, particularly salt water, helps lead to corrosion, mold, mildew, and a whole lot of other problems... so why would you want to deal with those when you don't have to.


buddabelly said:


> It's a boat! If there's a little water in the bilge so what? That's what the bilge pump is for. I have a little water in my bilge, but not enough to to even pump out. If I did it would fill the hose and when i turned off the pump it would flow back into the bilge. You guys act like your boat going to sink if you have any water at all in the bilge.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

A wet'n'dry vacuum cleaner is a great way to get rid of those last drops.


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