# What is a Genoa?



## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

hey Guys,

This a little bit of a dumb newbie question, but could someone tell me the main difference between a Genoa and a Jib? Is it just the size or are the differences in shape?

Also, how do you properly reef a Genoa or a Jib on a roller furling system. I went out yesterday and the wind went up to 25 - 30 knots in just 10 minutes in English Bay Vancouver, I just had the Genoa up and the boat keeled over with just that sail up. I thought I would try my very first attempt at roller furler reefing, but this ended in a wild disaster of flying, flinging, slapping, swearing, and jammed furler a couple times.

Feeling defeated I motored back to the dock 

It was probably the wrong boat for those conditions anyway. Catalina Capri 24

Kacper


----------



## Parley (Jul 13, 2006)

Sounds like way too much sail for that boat in those conditions. In my limited understanding of sail shape/cut, I understand a genoa is simply a big jib (110 +). In other words a headsail larger than your working jib; typically used in lighter airs. I'm sure others with actual knowledge will chime in here and straighten it out, so to speak 

As far as reefing with a roller furling system, it is dependant upon the furling unit being employed some are simply furlers (CDI is a good example as are other "flexible" type furlers), while others are designed for reefing (Harken, Hood are good examples).


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

As to your definition guestion. Wikipedia has it pretty good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoa_(sail)

As to reefing a jib, you should be able to partially furl a jib the same why you completely furl it at the end of the day, just roll it only part way. Most partially furled jibs don't provide very good sail shape but the smaller area can reduce the forces generated a lot.

If this is a 130%+ sail, you might be better off in those winds furling the whole thing and sailing with just your main.

If your having trouble with your furler in a breeze you should see if you can dig up whatever instructions came tihwt that unit. In short, to furl in a breeze release enough of the jib sheet so you can take in the furling line by hand. You should always keep some sheet pressure on the sail so that it furls tighthly (otherwise a sail can be subject to being opened in a storm). If you cannot haul int he furling line by hand, or the halyard wraps, then something is wrong with the furler. There are a number of Saiilnet threads as to what can go wrong with a furler, you can search for those.

Get on the Catalina email list and see what has worked for other owners of that boat.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

hey kacper,

Parley is right regarding the genoa. it's bigger than a jib but the shape is similar. unfortunately I know nothing about roller furling systems other than they are a pain in the butt on a smaller boat.


----------



## empresa (Nov 8, 2006)

*Genny*

The difference is size. Most properly made modern roller reefing genny's have foam in the luff of the sail so when you roll it in partway (reef) it will still have good sail shape. The trick to reefing it in is to make sure you have tension on the clew so it does not flop all over, or wrinkle up. Reef _before_ you need to.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Well, most sailors use the two terms interchangeably, but in general:

A Jib is 100% of the foretriangle (The triangle made between the forestay, mast and deck). A genoa is anything past that. A 155 Genoa, for example, would be 155% of the foretriangle.

As far as reefing with a roller furling, this should be your basic technique (at least as I do it).

1) Build up forward speed.
2) Grab the furling line (ususally rigged to port, in my experience) and hold the tiller or wheel in your right.
3) Steer almost (ALMOST) dead into the wind and pull it in quickly. 
4) Cleat off the furling line and fall back off to regain momentum. 

Most people (myself included) will mark their reefing line with different colors so that you can know at a glance what % you are at: 135, 100, 75, etc. These colors correspond with where they would fall on the cleat on my boat... but whatever works for you... as long as it is the same for all the colors. 

Just so you know, a jib is a much better sail for heavy air than a jenny, because after you reef in a genoa past about 75% or so (in my opinion) it has lost so much of its sail shape it does not perform well at all. This is why many boats have a inner forestay so they can run a smaller storm jib or working jib while still maintaining their Genoa for light airs.

Hope all that made sense. You will get the hang of it after you do it a few times. Don't get discouraged. It is like riding a bike: you have to fall a few times before you get it down.

Write back with any questions. Have fun with the boat.

- CD


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Actually, a jib is any sail that is 100% of the foretriangle or less. There are storm jibs that are far smaller than 100%. Genoas are any headsail that are larger than 100%. 

Furling a roller furling genoa should be fairly easy. Generally, if you need a winch to furl it...you're doing something wrong. 

While roller furling/reefing systems are really convenient...they're not all that good for reefing more than a single reef or so. For instance, a 150% genoa can be reefed down to a 125% or so fairly well, but even with a foam or rope luff, it starts to get baggy if you try reefing it to a smaller size.


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

Kacper - is your boat a fractional or masthead sloop? You gotta be careful in high winds with just a lot of headsail and a masthead rig, that can place unnatural balance on your standing rig. (I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with this point) Also, masthead rigs are not as good as fractional rigs sailing on just the main ( again, room for discussion). Of course I have a masthead sloop...

Regarding the shape of a large genny when reefed the bigger problem is a higher center of effort I think, not just bad shape due to awkward sheet angle. It's as if you are attaching the tack 3 feet or more off the deck, moving the forces of the sail higher. This causes your boat to heel more and have less efficient forward thrust, which cascades to other problems.

I think your failure was to not reduce sail before the wind got out of hand, but I guess you just chalk that up to experience eh? "D I think the rule of thumb for us beginners is if anyone on the boat thinks the word 'reef' it's time to do it. 

A lot of time if the weather report is predicting winds over 10 knots I'll just reef the main at the dock.  I'm a wus but then again when the real men are flailing around madly on the foredeck with their wives screaming at them to not die I'm safely in the cockpit making sure my coffee doesn't spill.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

There's also the fact that as you reef a roller furling sail, it tends to bag more, and then the sail is fuller just when you really want a flatter sail shape.... 

When you reef depends a lot on the boat. I'll reef the sails if the winds are above 20 knots... but really don't have any need to reef before then... but my boat is probably able to handle more wind before reefing than most monohulls my size...


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> but my boat is probably able to handle more wind before reefing than most monohulls my size...


Oh sure, rub it in.


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I don't reef.....




well nor bellow 35


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> I don't reef.....
> 
> well nor bellow 35


Yes, we know.. and your boom has paid the price...


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

SD...SD...SD....now now now....

I posted why it broke....remember???


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yeah, yeah... I know... but this was good opportunity to pick on you... After all, you photoshopped me...  And the first time I didn't even do anything to deserve it. I'll admit, the second time, you were provoked....


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> I don't reef.....
> 
> well nor bellow 35


I've been out on a catalina 25 in 35 knots, you better be on your second reef by then, especially if you just bought it. lol.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Generally, as a rule, the bigger the boat, the higher the wind has to be for them to require a reef. CD's barge probably doesn't reef until it gets up to 40 knots or so... but he's got the solar panels to act as stabilizers.


----------



## zaldog (Mar 27, 2007)

Sailingdog what kind of boat do you have?


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A 28' trimaran with an 18' beam. We normally pass monohulls 40' long with ease...  Giulietta might give us a run for our money, but Fred would have to be driving...


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

It's still a salami.


----------



## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

What is a genoa?


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

tigerregis said:


> What is a genoa?


roflmao

oh, you are serious?


----------



## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

That was the question, if you read the OP. It is an unpenalised jib (at the time) by having unmeasured foot/ leach. It was introduced into a class regatta by a Swede who knew the rules in GENOA in the 50's. That is it's origin. WTF do you know about It?


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

nothin' 'cept it makes the boat go.  Always wondered about the name, thanks.


----------



## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

You're welcome.


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

tigerregis said:


> That was the question, if you read the OP. It is an unpenalised jib (at the time) by having unmeasured foot/ leach. It was introduced into a class regatta by a Swede who knew the rules in GENOA in the 50's. That is it's origin. WTF do you know about It?


Actually that was nevr proven, as some claims state that it was Raimondo Panario that in 1926 introduced that sail in Copenaghen..

Its one of those things where true origins are not sure...


----------



## Sabre66 (Feb 3, 2007)

After you furl some of the sail in move the sheet leads forward to improve sail shape. It's a very good idea to practice this in a moderate breeze instead of waiting for panic time. Mark the track or rail, if using snatch blocks, where their forward position will be. For optimal sail shape you would like the head sail to break evenly when you head into the wind( the sail should luff from top to bottom at the same time)
You wont get great sail shape with it furled but it's better than standing on your ear.


----------



## skrap1r0n (Mar 6, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> While roller furling/reefing systems are really convenient...they're not all that good for reefing more than a single reef or so. For instance, a 150% genoa can be reefed down to a 125% or so fairly well, but even with a foam or rope luff, it starts to get baggy if you try reefing it to a smaller size.


Hmm ok well this begs another question then. I have 130% and a 150% hank-on jenny's. I have no jib. I would like to get set up with a roller furler/reefer. If you only get one good reef out of one of these systems, then what size jenny do I need to consider for the system when I get it? 150? 130? What I mean, is do I want to be able to reef down to 100% only?

Also, (and I think I read this in this thread as well) But is it common to have an additional forestay installed when you put in a roller furler for smaller hank ons?


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

You could install a second stay for use with a hanked-on jib. Many cruising boats do this to provide a way to support a storm staysail.


----------



## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

skrap1r0n said:


> ... If you only get one good reef out of one of these systems, then what size jenny do I need to consider for the system when I get it? 150? 130?


The advice with my furlex is to take in 3-4 turns for the first reef, thereafter its continuous down to nothing. Frankly, on a cruising yacht in winds over 35 knots, the difference between a furled genoa and a full jib of the same area is a bit acedemic. Yes, the jib is better aerodramatically, but in 35 knots you have plenty of wind to spare, so the difference only counts on the famous lee shore. But you can still claw your way away from it with a furled genoa and reefed main.
I experimented a lot with furling and reefing last year (plenty of wind), with mine, taking down the main and using more genoa area seems to point better, but with running, the reefed main seems better than any genoa. It depends on the boat, I guess. I previously used a 150 genoa, but it really only helps a little when poled-out down wind, when the spi is better anyway. So my new sail is 140 and I don't notice the difference in power, except it points better.
Having said that, my scruffy old jib points just as well.


----------



## skrap1r0n (Mar 6, 2007)

I have only used my 130. I haven't even tried the 150 yet. I will next time out I believe.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Idiens-

The problem with a furled 140% genoa in heavy winds is that the sail no longer can keep a flat shape, due to the way the furler works. It will tend to have a fairly full shape, that can not be flattened, and will be powered up just when you want to depower the sail most.


----------



## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

SD - So I wind a bit more in, if I too much power.


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm with you Idiens, roller furling is my prefered thing too, don't like going to the bow.

But the funny thing is, as you roll up the center of effort gets higher and higher, and the sail gets baggier and baggier both of which increase the heeling moment you are trying to reduce, so it's less than ideal, can you at least admit that Idiens?  

Ditch the roller furler, hank on a working jib, and it's gonna be better in conditions that need a jib. Unfortunately your increased boat speed may be used to move the boat further away from where you just fell off the bow after hanking on that jib.  

It's all about trade offs, noone is saying roller furling is better for sail shape SD. Noone is saying roller furling isn't convenient and maybe safer Idiens. 

Now I'm certain some of the big boys will comment how their super high tech racing furler has the best of both worlds and prove me wrong. Gui..?

I think to answer your question Idiens, figure out local conditions and put up the one that will operate best in that range. In the PNW for my boat that would probably mean putting on the 130 for the fall and winter season, then switching to the 150 for summer's lighter air. Heck, I might get a jib for the winter then just wait till I see whitecaps to go out.


----------



## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

My old genoa did not have the problems that you decribe tenuki. In heavy weather it was wound so far in that what was left was quite flat. The new one has two foam strips on the luff which takes out the initial bagginess, at the expense of a fatter furled luff. Yes, I agree its not so good a sail, but I'm a cruiser, not a racer, and in those conditions I am trying to be comfortable not super efficient. 
I may lose 5 degrees pointing, compared to the super efficient just-the-right-size sail, but in a couple of minutes the wind is higher, and the super efficient sail is too large. OK, off goes Number 1 and changes down - in racing. Me, I pull this line here, from the comfort of my wheelhouse, and the sail gets smaller.


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

it may have been flat, but the center of effort was higher, right? so at least one of the factors I described was in play. The only way you could get around the moving center of effort problem would be to have the sail cut so the foot was more or less perpendicular to the forestay I think, now that would be a sucky sail shape. lol.

Wheelhouse!?! ok, i'm jealous.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I do carry an ATN GaleSaile, which is a smaller sail that hanks on over the furled genoa, for really bad weather conditions. I haven't had a reason to use it yet... but I do have it just in case. The reason I carry it is that in really bad weather conditions, a serious risk to a roller furled headsail is it unfurling at the wrong time. By hoisting this sail over it, there is almost no chance of the genoa unfurliing. This sail will sheet flatter and perform better in the really high winds I would be using it in as well.


----------



## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

tenuki said:


> it may have been flat, but the center of effort was higher, right?


Higher than what? I guess is one answer.  I carry a storm sail on a movable babystay. I guess the genoa CP at the same area furled may be a little higher, but also further forward.

SD- I like the GaleSaile idea, I don't like the idea of rigging it in a gale. 
I don't like rigging my storm sail either, but I'm not on the bow and I can tether out of range of falling in the sea. I can pre-rig the storm sail on the baby stay with sail ties and release it and hoist when necessary. When I furl the genoa in a storm, I pull in a few extra turns to wrap the sheets around it and down near the deck. That way it's fairly trussed up and the sheets are running lower too.


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

Idiens said:


> Higher than what?


Why be difficult?


----------



## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

tenuki said:


> Why be difficult?


They say sailors start racing as soon as they sight another yacht. 
Alone, I'm happy beating at about 100 degrees tack angle. Then someone like Giu comes into sight and I'm rushing around tweeking, tuning and trimming. I know I'll never match his speed to windward. But I still try. It comes from a miss-spent youth in racing boats.


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Idiens said:


> They say sailors start racing as soon as they sight another yacht.
> Alone, I'm happy beating at about 100 degrees tack angle. Then someone like Giu comes into sight and I'm rushing around tweeking, tuning and trimming. I know I'll never match his speed to windward. But I still try. It comes from a miss-spent youth in racing boats.


Indiens 

I do that even if I don't see another boat......  

Just in case somebody comes around the corner


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

It is true... one sailboat alone is sailing, two sailboats together are a race.. whether they want to or not... it is just the nature of sailors to see who can go faster... However, I'd like to add that going fast on a sailboat takes skill and knowledge, versus those who do so on a power boat, which merely takes a lead wrist and large wallet.


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

Idiens said:


> They say sailors start racing as soon as they sight another yacht.
> Alone, I'm happy beating at about 100 degrees tack angle. Then someone like Giu comes into sight and I'm rushing around tweeking, tuning and trimming. I know I'll never match his speed to windward. But I still try. It comes from a miss-spent youth in racing boats.


Ya, but anyone who's raced knows that the base of the 'race pyramid' starts with boat prep, in which case Giu has us beat before it even starts. 

Oh wait, I think we all could beat Giu's boat right now, we have BOOMS!


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

tenuki said:


> Oh wait, I think we all could beat Giu's boat right now, we have BOOMS!


You're right there....

I guess that is your 15 minutes of fame....I'm coming back soon


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> You're right there....
> 
> I guess that is your 15 minutes of fame....I'm coming back soon


That's what you said last week... and yet, still, you're boomless.  No boom... nope, none... nada, zip, zilch... you'd have to sail on just the Genoa...


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

ahhh.....but when it arrives..I will be having the joy of life again...this time...I will give it love and care.....till the next time   

By the way..if it was the mast..check this out...2 months waiting time for a performance mast now....   PLUS waiting for groupped transport, by ship only!!!!!!!!!   

So I was lucky    

Still...I can sail with the genoa only and still have fun...kinda like sailing a laser!!!


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

That's a damn big laser...  Um... don't capsize it like you do the lasers... righting it would not be fun...


----------

