# Spinnaker guys and sheets



## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Hi Spinnaker Users,

After extensive research, it's time to ask those who really know. Theory now... why do I need a guy and a sheet for the symetrical spinnaker? Small boats don't use both, do they? They both get clipped to the clew, no? I've seen all the pictures and diagrams, but haven't found the explanation for "why". Thanks as always.

Dave


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

you need two pieces of line, one from each clew, led aft. 

If you want to gild the lily, you can use two each, with one being slack while you insert it into the pole end, then tighten up on it once the pole is in position to take the load.

that way you have a guy, a "lazy" guy, a sheet, and a "lazy" sheet. this is more common when you have a pole that remains on the mast during jibes (the "dip-pole" jibe), rather than the more common "end for end" pole switch for shorter poles.

Yes they are clipped to the clew, and the guy runs free through the pole fitting.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

The guy needs to be very low stretch and strong line to keep the spinnaker pole off of your forestay and furler.

The sheet needs to be very light line to avoid weighing down the spinnaker's clew in light air. You might even carry two options for different conditions.

On a small boat you can use the same for both because you can get strong enough and light enough line to do both duties. You use twings to move the lead point to the boat (guys go to the widest beam, sheets go to the aft quarter). On a large boat you use different lines for each so that you can optimize their purpose, because the 3/8" dyneema core line that is appropriate for the guy would be too heavy for the sheet.


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## zeilfanaat (Feb 28, 2002)

I suppose the short answer to "why" is that on a small boat with a small spinnaker, you generally don't need both. During an end-for-end jibe, what was the sheet becomes the guy, and what was the guy becomes the sheet.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Can anyone link to a good diagram for rigging a spinnaker? And maybe another for a spinnaker for a small boat?


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

With guys:









Without guys (note that this image doesn't show pole topping lift and downhaul, but you still need them):








or
http://pacificnorthwestboating.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/newport-30-spinnaker-gear-layout.jpg

That last (linked) one doesn't show twings, but they do help. In the top view picture above they are using guy hooks instead of twings, that is common on dinghies.

If you want to fly a spinnaker get a ride on a race boat, you'll learn a lot more than looking online. I did figure out how to hoist and fly my spinnaker on my own, but got a lot better at it after a half season of racing on other people's boats.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Alex W said:


> The guy needs to be very low stretch and strong line to keep the spinnaker pole off of your forestay and furler.
> 
> The sheet needs to be very light line to avoid weighing down the spinnaker's clew in light air. You might even carry two options for different conditions.
> 
> On a small boat you can use the same for both because you can get strong enough and light enough line to do both duties. You use twings to move the lead point to the boat (guys go to the widest beam, sheets go to the aft quarter). On a large boat you use different lines for each so that you can optimize their purpose, because the 3/8" dyneema core line that is appropriate for the guy would be too heavy for the sheet.


That's it Alex! Thanks. The second I read your answer it was crystal. See... that's why we come here!  Now, I've got 1/4" sheets, what diameter would you suggest for the guys?


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Dave_E said:


> Hi Spinnaker Users,
> 
> After extensive research, it's time to ask those who really know. Theory now... why do I need a guy and a sheet for the symetrical spinnaker? Small boats don't use both, do they? They both get clipped to the clew, no? I've seen all the pictures and diagrams, but haven't found the explanation for "why". Thanks as always.
> 
> Dave


The lead for a guy typically needs be amidships at the widest point of the beam to maximize the angle between the line of the guy and the center-line of the pole when the yacht is close reaching to minimize compression loading on the pole/mast. The lead for the sheets needs be near the stern quarter to maximize the aerodynamic profile of the sail. One can also use a somewhat lighter weight line for the sheets than used for the guys to "unload" the sail in light air.

FWIW...


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Dave_E said:


> That's it Alex! Thanks. The second I read your answer it was crystal. See... that's why we come here!  Now, I've got 1/4" sheets, what diameter would you suggest for the guys?


Something low stretch and that works well with your winches. 5/16" or 3/8" Samson XLS Extra (the extra moniker is important, it has almost 3x less stretch) would be a good budget choice. On my boat I use the same lines for sheets and guys and use Samson MLX with the last 10' striped of its cover. A friend with a similar size boat uses 5/16" XLS Extra for the same purpose. Lines smaller than 5/16" slip on my winches self tailer, but newer winches handle a wider range of line sizes.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

We have 1/4" on our 34 footer as "dental floss" and is good up to about 10kts windspeed. After that, they are cutting into our hands as we trim. I recently stripped off the covers of my 3/8" warp speed and they have been so light at the ends that I havent used the quarter inchers since. And they have just enough "hand" as to be comfortable while trimming in higher windspeeds. The Dymena is super low stretch and works well for both sheets and guys.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

The guys are necessary on a dip-pole gybe. They are not needed on an end for end gybe, but I have seen them used there as well.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Alex W said:


> Something low stretch and that works well with your winches. 5/16" or 3/8" Samson XLS Extra (the extra moniker is important, it has almost 3x less stretch) would be a good budget choice. On my boat I use the same lines for sheets and guys and use Samson MLX with the last 10' striped of its cover. A friend with a similar size boat uses 5/16" XLS Extra for the same purpose. Lines smaller than 5/16" slip on my winches self tailer, but newer winches handle a wider range of line sizes.


Personal preference perhaps, but I like to use a line with a bit of stretch so I don't break anything (like the pole) when the spinnaker snap-fills after my absent-minded crew allows it to partially collapse in a decent breeze... Of course, if you have a top-class crew, you don't have this problem. 

Another tip: Do not under any circumstances tie stopper-knots (figure-8 or whatever) in the ends of your spinnaker lines - sheets & guys. Out-of-control spinnakers are the usual cause of knock-downs and one of the few things guaranteed to keep a knocked-down boat from righting itself again is a jammed spinnaker line...


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Oh a small boat I prefer to use this boat drawing to help me understand proper rigging. I stole this from another site, my compliments to the owner, due respect to them sorry, I really only downloaded it for myself... but my bet is they wouldn't mind me providing it for others to learn too.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

SHNOOL said:


> Oh a small boat I prefer to use this boat drawing to help me understand proper rigging. I stole this from another site, my compliments to the owner, due respect to them sorry, I really only downloaded it for myself... but my bet is they wouldn't mind me providing it for others to learn too.


So that looks like you put a snatch block on your jib car track, then when you jibe you slide the sheet into the snatch block?

But from looking at that diagram it doesn't look like the snatch block changes the angle very much, compared to just running it straight to the spinnaker block on the stern. Does it really make that much of a difference?

I think I'm going to need more equipment before I fly my spinnaker. My pole has a hook on one end and a spike on the other, I've been told that means I have to do "dip pole" jibes and from what I'm reading here that means I'll need both sheets and guys.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

jackdale said:


> The guys are necessary on a dip-pole gybe. They are not needed on an end for end gybe, but I have seen them used there as well.


So if my pole has the center mounted bridle for up and down hauls... The guy is still to get hold of that pole and hold it, no? I can jibe doing an end for end. Is the guy attached to the pole?


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Dave_E said:


> So if my pole has the center mounted bridle for up and down hauls...


 ...then it's designed for end-for-end gybes.



Dave_E said:


> The guy is still to get hold of that pole and hold it, no? I can jibe doing an end for end. Is the guy attached to the pole?


Yes and yes. You unclip (fire) the active guy, end-for-end the pole and clip on to the new guy...


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Minnesail said:


> So that looks like you put a snatch block on your jib car track, then when you jibe you slide the sheet into the snatch block?


Yes.. it becomes the guy. Confused yet?!?



Minnesail said:


> But from looking at that diagram it doesn't look like the snatch block changes the angle very much, compared to just running it straight to the spinnaker block on the stern. Does it really make that much of a difference?


That's because the diagram is looking from the mast-top. In real life, what it's doing is pulling in and *down* on the "guy" to help keep the windward clew under control. Does it make a difference?? Most certainly. Especially in a decent breeze...



Minnesail said:


> I think I'm going to need more equipment before I fly my spinnaker. My pole has a hook on one end and a spike on the other, I've been told that means I have to do "dip pole" jibes and from what I'm reading here that means I'll need both sheets and guys.


Yep, that's a "dip pole"... and no, although it can make things slightly easier nobody "needs" both sheets and guys - it's personal preference.

If you're not trying to win a club championships you can do perfectly well with just sheets and tweakers/snatch-blocks (as shown in that diagram) if you prefer.


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## zeilfanaat (Feb 28, 2002)

Minnesail said:


> I think I'm going to need more equipment before I fly my spinnaker. My pole has a hook on one end and a spike on the other, I've been told that means I have to do "dip pole" jibes and from what I'm reading here that means I'll need both sheets and guys.


I would be surprised if your Catalina 22 were set up for a dip-pole jibe. Do you have a fixed ring on your mast?

It might be cheaper to modify your spin pole for end-for-end jibes or buy a cheap used one, rather than buying stuff to do a dip-pole jibe. I think a dip-pole set-up adds a whole level of complexity that's just not needed on a 22-footer.


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## zeilfanaat (Feb 28, 2002)

Minnesail said:


> So that looks like you put a snatch block on your jib car track, then when you jibe you slide the sheet into the snatch block?
> 
> But from looking at that diagram it doesn't look like the snatch block changes the angle very much, compared to just running it straight to the spinnaker block on the stern. Does it really make that much of a difference?


You wouldn't slide the sheet (the guy really, once it's on the pole), in and out of snatch block after each jibe. I'd suggest that you permanently lead the guy/sheet through a block on a separate line. That line is then led to the toe rail to some cleat or another. When the line on the clew of the spinnaker is working as the guy, you cinch the block all the way down to the rail; when it's the sheet, you ease it all the way so that the sheet can fly free and you can trim the spinnaker. This sounds more complicated than it really is; check out this image from the Harken website: http://www.harken.com/uploadedImages/Tech_Corner/Deck_Layouts/One_Design/j22-top-lg.gif?n=3090

On the port side, you can see how the spinnaker sheet is led through a block (item 2146), which is then led to the rail (237) and cleated off on the deck. You have the same setup on the starboard side.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Classic30 said:


> Yes.. it becomes the guy. Confused yet?!?


Nearly always! 



Classic30 said:


> That's because the diagram is looking from the mast-top. In real life, what it's doing is pulling in and *down* on the "guy" to help keep the windward clew under control. Does it make a difference?? Most certainly. Especially in a decent breeze....


Ahhh, that makes a great deal of sense! It took me a while to figure out why jib cars made a difference, again it's the up/down pull. Got it. I am less confused.



zeilfanaat said:


> I would be surprised if your Catalina 22 were set up for a dip-pole jibe. Do you have a fixed ring on your mast?


Who the hell knows what it's set up for. It's 40 years old and has been through several owners. The previous owner never touched the spinnaker.

But yes, I have a fixed ring on my mast. I've used it for wing-on-wing with the pole.



zeilfanaat said:


> It might be cheaper to modify your spin pole for end-for-end jibes or buy a cheap used one, rather than buying stuff to do a dip-pole jibe. I think a dip-pole set-up adds a whole level of complexity that's just not needed on a 22-footer.


It's possible it's not even a spinnaker pole. It seems awfully light to me, like a whisker pole. I know on a larger boat it would be way too light, but I've been told that that's what they're like on little boats.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

zeilfanaat said:


> You wouldn't slide the sheet (the guy really, once it's on the pole), in and out of snatch block after each jibe. I'd suggest that you permanently lead the guy/sheet through a block on a separate line. That line is then led to the toe rail to some cleat or another. When the line on the clew of the spinnaker is working as the guy, you cinch the block all the way down to the rail; when it's the sheet, you ease it all the way so that the sheet can fly free and you can trim the spinnaker. This sounds more complicated than it really is; check out this image from the Harken website: http://www.harken.com/uploadedImages/Tech_Corner/Deck_Layouts/One_Design/j22-top-lg.gif?n=3090
> 
> On the port side, you can see how the spinnaker sheet is led through a block (item 2146), which is then led to the rail (237) and cleated off on the deck. You have the same setup on the starboard side.


FWIW, over here we refer to that setup as a "tweaker", but it's probably called something else over there.

I can't be bothered with running extra lines and adding cleats (small as they are) and they'd look wrong on a classic yacht anyway, so instead I use a snatch block clipped to the chainplate and use brute force to get the sheet/guy into it.

This setup works fine for the sailing I do.. mostly. ..and then in a stiff breeze I just pray hard and wish I'd set up tweakers..


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I don't use snatch blocks, my Capri 25 has T track on the far rail for running regular blocks (so I slide them forward/aft when I need to)... but Snatch blocks by definition are designed to snap, onto life lines, so for a tweaker, you'd clip your snatch block on a gybe and tweak in on one side, and ease, or unclip on the other.

Yes the tweakers are to pull down on the pole, less than in. I still use a downhaul on the pole though, and the pole is on a bridle. The downhaul runs to bottom of the mast, so that you need not adjust the downhaul to adjust the sheet angle, it'll rotate about the mast.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Good onya for learning how to "fly the kite".

I'm a fan of using spinnakers for cruising. During those midsummer highs with light wind, the spinny can make a hot and not-worth-it downwind day going 2 knots under sail with a blanketed jib (or 5 while breathing your own exhaust all day) and turn it into a workable 4-knot passage that'll get you to that next harbor and you'll feel a little more breeze on your faces from the apparent wind.

For me the symmetrical kites are better since more able to go deep on a broad reach or run compared to the assyms. Just overtrim it a little so you don't have to keep checking the windward leech, and enjoy your day*


*(while keeping a wary eye out for dark clouds which can turn you and your spinny into enemies)


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Draw out the same drawings with the pole in a reaching position (forward against the forestay). Imagine that a big gust of wind is trying to push the sail and pole laterally against the forestay. That will make the benefits of running the guy to the beam instead of the transom clear, and also show why low stretch line is a must for the guys.



Classic30 said:


> Personal preference perhaps, but I like to use a line with a bit of stretch so I don't break anything (like the pole) when the spinnaker snap-fills after my absent-minded crew allows it to partially collapse in a decent breeze... Of course, if you have a top-class crew, you don't have this problem


A guy with some stretch on a reach will instead allow the pole to slam into the forestay and furler, which is potentially a lot worse. If you only use the kite DDW and not for reaching then this is less of a concern, but in light air on most boats it is faster to broad reach and jybe (using apparent wind to help you get closer to wind speed) then to go DDW.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Minnesail said:


> My pole has a hook on one end and a spike on the other, I've been told that means I have to do "dip pole" jibes and from what I'm reading here that means I'll need both sheets and guys.


Are you sure that this isn't a whisker pole? Is it adjustable in length?

Forespar says that a spinnaker pole for your boat should be 2" in diameter and 8' long (that is measured from the front of the mast to the inside of the guy hook).


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Alex W said:


> Are you sure that this isn't a whisker pole? Is it adjustable in length?
> 
> Forespar says that a spinnaker pole for your boat should be 2" in diameter and 8' long (that is measured from the front of the mast to the inside of the guy hook).


I am not at all sure that it isn't a whisker pole.

The only other spinnaker poles I've seen are for 36+ boats. They're great honking massive things. Mine is quite light.

When I bought the boat I assumed it was a whisker pole but the previous owner later told me it was for the spinnaker, although he had never used it.

About a month ago I got to talking to a guy at the dock with a Rhodes 19 and a lot of experience with other small boats. I asked him if it was a spinnaker pole and he said it was. Although now that I think about it&#8230; He might have said something more like "that could work for your spinnaker."

I looked at that Forespar pole and mine is nothing like 2" in diameter. 1.5" maybe, probably 1.25". And yes, when unlocked it collapses down from 8' to more like 5' so it's easy to stow. And there are a lot of other things I'd rather spend $500 on, so it'll be a while before I get a proper Forespar spinnaker pole&#8230;


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Spinnaker poles are not adjustable in length, what you have is a whisker pole. It would likely fail if used for the spinnaker in anything but very light winds.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Just got off the phone with one of the big East Coast performance stores and they didn't think I need to fool with guys at all on my 31'. What's your take on that recommendation? Was going to buy sheets and guys.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

buy two pieces of non-stretch braided line, each about 1.5 to 2 times the length of your boat (or one piece of line and cut it, ha ha).

a sheet and a guy are typically indistinguishable but for the guy having the pole jaws around it.

And no sense getting them til you get an actual spinny pole, identical fittings at both ends, not a lighter, shorter, and sometimes assymetrical-ended 'whisker pole'. Look for a used pole, should be some around. God knows most of the ones in existence never get used ;-)


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Dave, the down and dirty answer is if your spinnaker pole has a bridle, it is set up for end-for-end gybing, then all you need are sheets. If it doesn’t, then your boat is set up for dip pole gybes and then you need the (after) guys. Your boat is small enough that if you are not set up with a bridle already, do so now. End-for-end is simpler and only needs sheets. My masthead 34’ is right on the edge of needing the dip pole. People are also overthinking the tweakers. All you need is a metal ring tied to a control line that runs through a single block with a cleat, attached to the toe rail near amidships. The spinnaker sheet “runs” through the ring. To tweak, all you do is haul in the tweaker line until the ring is at the toe rail. Easy peasy.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

GeorgeB said:


> Dave, the down and dirty answer is if your spinnaker pole has a bridle, it is set up for end-for-end gybing, then all you need are sheets. If it doesn't, then your boat is set up for dip pole gybes and then you need the (after) guys. Your boat is small enough that if you are not set up with a bridle already, do so now. End-for-end is simpler and only needs sheets. My masthead 34' is right on the edge of needing the dip pole. People are also overthinking the tweakers. All you need is a metal ring tied to a control line that runs through a single block with a cleat, attached to the toe rail near amidships. The spinnaker sheet "runs" through the ring. To tweak, all you do is haul in the tweaker line until the ring is at the toe rail. Easy peasy.


Thanks George. I have a double ended 12' honest to goodness spinnaker pole with the center uphaul and downhaul bridles. I like the tweaker line idea. KIS (keep it simple)!


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I was also surprised to see Dave's boat being rigged with sheets and guys, but it is also a 31' boat that weighs as much as most 35' boats (it is 11,000lbs) and 50% more than an average 30' boat (at least the cruiser/racers that I sail on). So the spinnaker is probably a lot larger than what is used on most 30' class boats.

If you use the same sheets and guys you do want something low stretch.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

My boat is 36', 14,000 lbs... I am set up for a dip pole gybe. In the light stuff, I have been experimenting with using snatch blocks at the mid rail to convert my lazy sheet into a guy..

Seems to be working OK so far.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Couple of comments on the conversation here:

end for end for boat at 35' and under. Use sheets and guys if you're on the big end of end for end gybes.
If you're over 36-37' then start looking into dip pole gybes.
You cannot do a dip pole gybe efficiently with just sheets. You need 2 sets of strings. Guys and sheets.
For a 22 footer just use sheets, and twing them down to max beam on your boat. 
Use low stretch line for the reasons stated in previous posts. Don't go cheap unless it's a small chute. You can get away with XLS extra, VPC, or MLX. 
shop around for a spin pole or shoot me a PM, I'm a forespar dealer. The pole is cheap compared to what you'll pay for shipping....


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

I was foredeck on a 1D35 (35', carbon pole, end-for-end, sheets and guys).... for the first time yesterday.. Never done an end-for-end gybe before... 

Not too bad... Carbon Pole is crazy light. It was nice having a lazy guy in hand before I disconnected the pole from the mast.

Crew was confused with so many lines

But it went fine.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

You don't need both spin sheets and lazy guys. With modern line, as long as you can end for end jbe, and aren't racing, a single sheet on each clew is all you need. (Its all I use on my sym. chutes on my 38 footer).

But the line should have a high modulus core so that it can be a small enough diameter to be light enough to act as a sheet, and is strong and stretch resistent enough to use as a guy. Mine are 3/8" diameter with a aramid core.

I use the same basic layout that Shnool shows in his borrowed diagram. In my case I use a snatch block on the rail. I run twing lines through the snatch block when racing but put the guy directly in the snatch block when I expect to be on a single jibe for a long time to reduce abrasion and friction. 

I use a foreguy rigged to a strong point below the bridle on the pole, but sometimes rig the foreguy back to the base of the mast so I don't need to adjust it every time I ease or trim the guy. 

J


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> ........
> I use the same basic layout that Shnool shows in his borrowed diagram. In my case I use a snatch block on the rail. *I run twing lines through the snatch block when racing* but put the guy directly in the snatch block when I expect to be on a single jibe for a long time to reduce abrasion and friction.
> ........


You know, I've been using the snatch-block system for years now and never thought of that! Thanks, Jeff. A neat improvement indeed!! 

It'll confuse the crap out of my crew next race ("the sheet goes where?!?").. but will give us much better control of the kite than we have now - and control wins every time.


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