# Precision Sails or North Direct.....



## oysterman23

Hi all ive read rather old threads on this subject but saw little on either sailmaker recently. If you have direct experience with either loft pro or con would appreciate info...no other lofts please just Precision or North Direct. 
TIA

Chris


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## Stumble

If North Direct options work for you then they are fine. Not the best sail for your boat, but pretty good at a very reasonable price. The question is how close to what your ideal sail are their offerings? And how much does every little bit of performance matter to you? Generally the sails are middle of the road quality, everything's is right but they tend to lack the polish you get from a custom sail... Like telltale windows positioned where you want them, curl marks on the spinnaker, ect.

I have and would buy North Direct for cruising sails, not for a racing boat.


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## oysterman23

Thanks Greg, re North that was my expectation. I'm a cruiser and though Id love to someday get a top notch set for the boat, I'm currently shopping for a modest set of decent sails. The current main is an older North sail very definitely stretched out. It takes quite a bit of attention to get any shape out of it but all things considered (age in particular) it has served me well for a couple of years while I upgraded the boat. Time will tell. My reason for asking about Precision was that they have been paying a great deal of attention to me on the phone (their dime) I dont respond much to hard sell and got abit suspicious there was nearly nothing out on the net about them. I'm a stickler for checking sources...anyway just collecting info...whenever my hot little hands reach into the pocket its time to slow down and ask what I know and what I dont....


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## jimkyle99

I bought a sail from Precision this winter and I would not again. While we were in the hard sell phase they said it would ship in three week, maybe four. It took ten weeks and at that they shipped it to my home address and not the 'ship to' address on the order (the other side of the country). As far as the attention you are getting now, all that will stop abruptly once they have your order, at least it did will me. No confirmation of information received, no response on traces I sent and because I'm still at the boat and the sail it still at home I don't know what the quality is like. If I sound like I'm still streamed, I am.


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## Stumble

I have no experience with precision. But with North Direct you can also deal with any of their lofts world wide for support.


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## oysterman23

Thanks J Kyle....

That confirms the suspicion I was developing....sales method right out of the time share closer's manual. When they started adding features I hadn't asked for and claimed first hand inspection of each product by them on site (to verify quality etc) I began to shut down. All good stuff mind you but....anyway no slander necessary no is good enough. 

Thanks again to all
Chris


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## Tenoch

Just wanted to bump this thread up. I was thinking about going with Precision for a new mainsail and was wondering if anyone had any experience with them...good or bad.


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## oysterman23

Just a quick follow-up. I went with North Direct and had good service including special attention because of a modified boom. Pictures were exchanged issues discussed and then order confirmed. Despite my delay of the order deep into season North had my sails to me quickly and they fit great.... Would I use them again ? Definitely good value for the money....and I also know why I might go local for specific things.


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## Bill-Rangatira

It seems many have had bad experience with precision sails I just got my new main from them a few months ago ... i live near their loft and they did follow up with me to see if i was happy with the sail i was and appreciated their attention to wanting to follow up 
they also did service on my genoa for me and again good work


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## oysterman23

Well its good to hear your experience. It would help if a few more folk shared their experiences so the next folks have something g to go on.


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## MedSailor

I have bought sails from precision and I have met their owner in petson.i can say with confidence that they are the best at customer service and support. If you are confident in your ability to measure precision is a great way to go. Much better than my Rolly Taskar sail (which wasn't bad). No experience with North.

Medsailor


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## jvlassak

I ordered a main sail from them last year and am quite happy with how things turned out. The sail is well made and was delivered within the time frame we had discussed.


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## offskier

I just ordered my Precision sails on Thursday. Said they would be don in 5 weeks from the time they got the info. Hope for the best. Will follow up.


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## unclecurt

I too have ordered sails from Precision Sails and had a good experience. 

My sails were for a Nimble Arctic, which is not a common boat. The measurement process is comprehensive, as it should be, since these are essentially custom sails. The customer support and design support was excellent. My sails shipped on time and no complaints on the quality. Follow-up requests were made to ask if I am happy with the sails, but as I had them delivered in January and put them up this month on a the boat following it's restoration this Spring/Summer I did not respond yet. I will provide positive feedback to Precision based on my experience.

If you're willing to do the measurements and discuss the details rather than relying on someone to do it for you or make sails from "standard" measurements on file, I would expect good results from Precision Sails and a good value.


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## miatapaul

HUMM, two first time posters post in a row pitching for a company that has had at least some customer service issues in the past??? Color me suspicious. Of course both said they ordered, not received. At least it is not Peak sails.


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## unclecurt

maitapaul,

Hmmmmmm.... someone who doesn't know me making statements about my credibility......
Yes, first time poster, but sailing for 50 years. Not internet sailing, but the kind which involves wind and water.

Also, as stated, I received my sails and have them on the boat this month. I like them, and the service I received from Precision Sails. 

I'll stand by my opinion and experience with Precision Sails, regardless of opinions from those who obviously have no direct experience with them. Complaints about anything can be found on the internet. This site is no an exception.


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## christian.hess

do you have pics of your sail? I just went through this speaking with the main sales guy at precision, wnated a new cruising dacron for my merit 25...price was ok, not awesome...I will withhold my comments untill I see pics however...and sail shape on boats, if possible

for those who have used them tell us the measurements YOU made and how did you pay, I found their payment program laughable...what is the purpose of paying all 4 installments with nothing to see untill you do the last payment? then wait 4 weeks for delivery!!!!!

just asking...

christian


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## unclecurt

I keep my boats some distance away, so no pics right now but might have some in September. That being said, if you look at the Precision web site there's an extensive photo gallery of their sails in use on various boats. From that, you should be able to see what you've described you're looking for. 

On measurements, I did the following : step 1 : complete the detailed measurement form for main and headsail they provide, including measurements from existing sails. step 2 ; they called me to review the measurements and discuss more specific information; step 3 : they perform sail modeling on their design software and follow up with that to review and catch anything not covered already or any questions prior to building the sails. I decided to increase the the area of my headsail by 10% from original and that was factored into the design. The main was straightforward, except I had full battens and reinforcements added and made the sail loose footed which were design changes from the original main. Results are as expected and what I wanted. These are on a Nimble Arctic, so definitely cruising only.......

On price : significantly lower than other sources, but perhaps the tanbark dacron I wanted affected that somewhat as other sources had a significant up charge which Precision did not.

On payments : A payment plan was not a concern to me. I decided what I wanted, they agreed to make what I wanted and I bought the sails accordingly. They arrived on time. Nice sail bags.

By the way, this was my first experience with Precision Sails. In searching for opinions on Precision Sails prior to working with them, I didn't find much. 
This site pops up, which is why I posted here. I don't normally post a lot on forums, but since I have direct experience to share perhaps it will be helpful to others.

The key with Precision Sails seems to be the measurement/design phase & communication.
If you're ok with doing that, it should be fine. If not, probably better to look elsewhere.


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## christian.hess

very nice info...I agree on all your points...having said that I had an issue with the sales guy...he had no clue about the gear and sail dimensions and info HE needed...he called me 4 times...he was a NICE guy...I just balked when he couldnt describe what he wanted from me for the sail dimensions...Im not criticizing as he is not the designer and or computer doing the cuts however I was shocked that he couldnt sell me the sail correctly

Ill ignore the payment plan issue...that just might be to cover their backs

I had a really awesome quote and chat from rolly tasker which I do have experience with...they did a full batten main on my islander 36 for the previous owner and it is really well made...their prices are par on par with these budget lofts(preciosion, peak, lee, etc)

for those interested my quotes were as follows:

quantumm(very knowledgeable guy and racer) dacron cruising 135 genoa $1790
rolly tasker $1350
precision was almost the same(quote for merit 25 sail was around $700)
lee didnt get a quote back...had to call
pinneaple sails(sails back home in california) have risen in price too much for my liking

I still have precision in the running...its just that I dont have the need for a genoa anymore...I bought and old racing sail from a fellow merit 25 sailor

anyways

thanks so much for the detailed response

christian


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## unclecurt

Hi christian

You're quite welcome.

My experience was the opposite. Maybe they hired someone who's on a learning curve, but regardless of that the contact SHOULD know what their talking about.
When I spoke with them, good support. It'll be interesting to hear how it goes for you.


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## miatapaul

unclecurt said:


> maitapaul,
> 
> Hmmmmmm.... someone who doesn't know me making statements about my credibility......
> Yes, first time poster, but sailing for 50 years. Not internet sailing, but the kind which involves wind and water.
> 
> Also, as stated, I received my sails and have them on the boat this month. I like them, and the service I received from Precision Sails.
> 
> I'll stand by my opinion and experience with Precision Sails, regardless of opinions from those who obviously have no direct experience with them. Complaints about anything can be found on the internet. This site is no an exception.


Yes complaints can be found, and even more so fake positive reviews. In fact there is an entire industry of people and computers who get paid to post positive reviews on forums and other on line sites. They get paid per post. So it is quite natural to doubt a first post when it is giving a positive review as there is no frame of reference to who the poster is, there experience, there use and what not. The post before you is one who's only post is a positive review of Precision Sails, and they had not even received them yet. So yes all posts are suspect.

This is why we have an introduction forum so you can introduce yourself, describe your experience and gain credibility.(http://www.sailnet.com/forums/introduce-yourself/) This is a helpful forum, but we have had quite a bit of spam posting in the past so one has to take posts with a grain of salt. If you have 50 years of experience then you likely have a lot to contribute. Hope to see more and I am happy you are pleased with your sails.


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## christian.hess

paul how are the miatas? sorry hijack over

thanks to all for the thread


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## miatapaul

christian.hess said:


> paul how are the miatas? sorry hijack over
> 
> thanks to all for the thread


currently driving a VW.


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## christian.hess

yikes guys...thats outright stealing...I will not do business with precision...I will go with my gut instinct...in fact I have them on my spam list as they keep sending me stupid emails now about rebates and whatnot

this does not mean Im buying from hyde or others it means I will not do business with theives(intellectuall or other)

cheers


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## CVAT

Judy,

Thank you for your honesty, and exposing precision's nonfactual marketing/advertisements. At least for me integrity goes a long way when a dealing with companies, great work and thanks for sharing what you find.

Thomas


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## Rusty123

Accidental post - cant delete


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## Stumble

Judy,

What you are describing is illegal. It is a violation of copywriter law and whoever owns the rights to those photographs could easily sure for infringement. Not my area of law, but I think it comes with statutory minimum collections and attorney's fees. 

Additionally it seems to be a violation of deceptive trade practices law. Which is investigated by the Federal Trade Commission. With its own bevy of sanctions.


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## CVAT

Judy,

One other thing I think, correct me if I am wrong but that does not look like a Gulfstar 54, As their title page indicates, unless of course it scrolls through pictures, but that boat seems a tad short to be a 54' Gulfstar, note the size of the person in blue at the helm. You would think that if it is going to be on your Gulfstar 54 page you would at least have a picture of said boat. And thank you again for keeping us informed about these practices.

Thomas


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## christian.hess

judy I liked your pricing on both the merit 25 genoa and islander 36 genoa...your prices are COMPETITIVE when comparing to my other favourite place sailwarehouse and national sails(rolly tasker)

someday Ill buy a new sail, someday...jajaja no need right this moment though

Im sorry if this thread got a bit off track having said that I feel the truth is always more important in the end and it helps new buyers take INFORMED decisions for the future...as is my case.

christian


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## CVAT

Judy,

I see your point, and the big issue is that they used someone else's property, the picture Photoshopped it and claimed it was theirs. Though out of curiosity I went to their website and took a random sampling of 10 headsails pages and the Gulfstar 54 was the only one I found with a picture of a boat on it all others show a headsail laid out in a loft.

Still an underhanded practice, and thanks again for the heads up.

Thomas


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## christian.hess

take payments? need my islander 36 genoa for my upcoming trip

jajaja

feel free to pm me...

I AM interested

thanks

christian


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## jblumhorst

Christian - 
Yes, free financing for 6 months, with no down payment, through PayPal.
Judy


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## MastUndSchotbruch

jblumhorst said:


> [Full disclosure: I own and operate HydeSailsDirect.com. My company is an authorized distributor for Hyde Sails LTD, a highly respected sail manufacturer for over 50 years]
> 
> In a previous post, I gave an example of what I consider be unethical business practices by Precision. Here is a second example, more damning than the first.
> 
> *In this next example, Precision stole a photo of a sail from a competitor's website, photoshop'd their own logo onto it. Precision is representing it on their as their product. IMO, that's evidence of a deliberate attempt to deceive their customers. *
> 
> Here's a screen capture of a page from the website of Owen Sailmakers, one of in Scotlands prominent sailmakers, Furling Genoa | Owen Sails
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> Below is a screen capture of the webpage that Precision uses to sell their "Performance Cruising Sails". This is the website URL: Golfstar 54 Sailboat Sails For Sale: Headsail, Jib and Genoa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> *Below is a screen capture of what you see when you click on the picture for a close up. *
> 
> *Notice that Precision erased the Owen logo and photoshop'd their own logo onto the sail. *


Looks like a very clear case of copyright violation.

Very unethical (and of course illegal). I would be extremely careful dealing with this company.

Strike that: I would NOT deal with this company.


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## Precision Sails Ltd

Hello SailNet Community, 

Precision Sails Ltd is currently not a paid advertiser on SailNet.com and is not permitted to participate in forum posts. This is not meant to be an advertisement for Precision Sails but in order for us to address everyone’s questions I will need to write about us.

As you might know members of the SailNet community have been inquiring about Precision Sails Ltd. We would like to ensure we address all of the inquiries and thank everyone that has added value to this post. With the information gathered from this post we have taken action, enabling us to better serve our clients. We take feedback seriously as it helps us provide the best service to our clients. 

*******************	

One of our existing clients notified us of this post this morning. Sorry it has taken us a couple hours to update our website. I can assure you we are working hard to solve these concerns.

I would like to apologize for any content on our website that may have been taken as misleading. We have done everything possible to remove pictures and our intent was not to upset the SailNet community. These pictures were found on Google images and their purpose was only to show what a particular cloth would look like. I would like to take responsibility for these pictures. Our web design team made a mistake. We have removed the pictures and taken this as an opportunity to update images. We will continue to work on this over the next little while. 

Updates: 

-Product pages and pictures of types of sails. (Please note: You may need to clear your web browser Cache in order to see the updated pictures)
Radial Dinghy laminates
Custom Vectran Strung Laminates
Structured Tape Technora
Black Polyester Radial Laminates (Dimension Polyant)
Twaron Advanced Membrane
GPL GraphX Performance Radial Lamainates (Dimension Polyant)
Warp Drive Radial Dacron (Challenge)

The best way for you to find out about us is to call or visit us at our full service loft and find out for yourself if we are the company that you would like to make your next sail. 

I hope this addressed everyone’s concerns.

Please note: As we are not current advertisers on SailNet.com this post and future posts could be viewed as advertising and is against SailNet Policy. Because of the SailNet guidelines, if you have questions or changes you would like to see on our website: Please send us an email and we will work on it as soon as we can!

Thank you,
Darryl Hodgson
Precision Sails Ltd


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## MastUndSchotbruch

Precision Sails Ltd said:


> Hello SailNet Community,
> 
> ...
> 
> These pictures were found on Google images and their purpose was only to show what a particular cloth would look like.
> 
> You need to photoshop your logo on a sail, replacing the logo of the company who actually built it, in order to "show what a particular cloth would like?"
> 
> Extremely convincing.
> 
> I would like to take responsibility for these pictures.
> 
> Good. What, exactly, does it mean that you take responsibility? What are the consequences of you 'taking responsibility,' other than removing the doctored photos that you have been caught red-handed with?
> 
> Darryl Hodgson
> Precision Sails Ltd


Disgusting behavior


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## miatapaul

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Disgusting behavior


And actually very illegal behavior. I have had photos stolen from websites as well, but were not anything comercial. The fines can be very high for this. There does seem to be a real problem on the internet with people stealing images. This one was even Photoshopped to have the owners logo taken off and replaced to make it look like you took the photo. Especially bad, as you were claiming it to be your own work. One thing to take a random image off the internet and submit it as such, another to put your own logo over the rightful owner.


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## christian.hess

well I guess since this thread got sidetracked a bit(im sorry for being part of that) and the original question and op have not been active, with reason I think its fair to say we can leave this issue alone.

I will however say that for those interested in new sails but maybe dont have the mullah, if your tedious and or persistent you can find REALLY REALLY good sails for a song,,,usually the best way to do this is to contact racers...

for example I just bought a kevlar/mylar north sails 155& genoa made to order for my boat that was a takeoff from a fellow racer back on the west coast...

one of those guys that replaces sails every other season or so...

whats not good for him is awesome and absolutely perfect to others simply because you have different "needs"

in this case for $100 I got a sail made to fit PERFECT for my exact boat(patches for spreaders, bow, reinfircements where needed, etc... that will last me years...no measuring no nonsense, no bs sales people no tediousness...

so for those contemplating a new sail, its not all black and white there guys...its greyish if you shop around

this is NOT to say that budget online lofts are bad or bs, its to offer a different perspective and alternative for those contemplating a "new" sail.

I will get a new sail soon...hopefully if the measurements can be done offsite.

cheers


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## SailRedemption

christian.hess said:


> well I guess since this thread got sidetracked a bit(im sorry for being part of that) and the original question and op have not been active, with reason I think its fair to say we can leave this issue alone.
> 
> I will however say that for those interested in new sails but maybe dont have the mullah, if your tedious and or persistent you can find REALLY REALLY good sails for a song,,,usually the best way to do this is to contact racers...
> 
> for example I just bought a kevlar/mylar north sails 155& genoa made to order for my boat that was a takeoff from a fellow racer back on the west coast...
> 
> one of those guys that replaces sails every other season or so...
> 
> whats not good for him is awesome and absolutely perfect to others simply because you have different "needs"
> 
> in this case for $100 I got a sail made to fit PERFECT for my exact boat(patches for spreaders, bow, reinfircements where needed, etc... that will last me years...no measuring no nonsense, no bs sales people no tediousness...
> 
> so for those contemplating a new sail, its not all black and white there guys...its greyish if you shop around
> 
> this is NOT to say that budget online lofts are bad or bs, its to offer a different perspective and alternative for those contemplating a "new" sail.
> 
> I will get a new sail soon...hopefully if the measurements can be done offsite.
> 
> cheers


How exactly does one contact racers? Is there race sailor swap meets we don't know about? Haha! But seriously.....

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk


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## Stumble

SailRedemption,

Generally racers are found at local bars. They tend to congregate to either the cheapest, or closest bar to the marina. In New Orleans that means either of the yacht clubs (NOYC or SYC). 

You can also ask on forums like this one (/wave) to see if any local racers are around. 

Or call a local sail loft. Most of which are more than happy to take a small commission to find sails in good condition.


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## SailRedemption

Stumble said:


> SailRedemption,
> 
> Generally racers are found at local bars. They tend to congregate to either the cheapest, or closest bar to the marina. In New Orleans that means either of the yacht clubs (NOYC or SYC).
> 
> You can also ask on forums like this one (/wave) to see if any local racers are around.
> 
> Or call a local sail loft. Most of which are more than happy to take a small commission to find sails in good condition.


Yea, OK I know those forums of contact (I'm a member of TYC). I just wasn't sure if he had some other outlet he was using.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk


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## christian.hess

SailRedemption said:


> How exactly does one contact racers? Is there race sailor swap meets we don't know about? Haha! But seriously.....
> 
> Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk


boat specific forums

i.e j24 forums, merit 25 forums, j30 forums, cal forums, ericson forums, cca era forums, alberg forums, pearson forums, tartan forums, etc...become a member if you have a boat or even if youre just interested in learning from them and sharing then after a while and everyone get to know you you can ask around for some stuff

you cant lose unless you try it...

in your case for a kaufman you have more searching to do...BUT if you can contact old owners and or current ones, exchanging info that would help you search for a suitable sail off ANOTHER boat is possible too

I know I will sound like an ass here but a sail has 3 measurements that will make it fit on a boat...and unless you are dennis conner out there you dont need ALL the measurements a new sail fit to your boat from a loft requests...yes it helps but the specifics can be saved for when you go all out...I will but I wont half ass it either by buying a new sail that fits or performs WORSE than a well cared for used sail

now just for kicks go get a quote on a new kevlar genoa from north sails for my boat(merit 25) and laugh at the price, ITS NOT CHEAP!

yes mine has had some 25 odd races on it, but for a cool buck guess whos laughing in the end? I wouldnt if I had a new CRAPPY sail even if its new...

just sayin

with that Im out...

peace


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## jblumhorst

I don't mean to put too fine a point on this, but in general, a cruising headsail embodies a different set of compromises than a racing sail does. 

Many racing genoas and jibs have very low clews and are "decksweepers". Decksweepers are optimized for upwind work, not reaching. A decksweeper will have some shortcomings for cruisers who generally need an "all purpose" sail. A decksweeper will probably have too much twist to be a good reacher when you ease the sheet (all things being equal). You will need to skirt it over the lifelines. The low clew and foot will catch water if you roll or are in rough water with sheets eased. You won't be able to see under it. 

Virtually all the extra measurements that a sailmaker requests are to ensure the proper amount of twist (control of tension on the leech vs foot). Although the luff may fit on your furler or forestay, the clew height may be all wrong compared to your genoa tracks in terms of controlling twist. Not all boats have genoa tracks installed in the same place on the boat. 

Judy


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## SailRedemption

christian.hess said:


> boat specific forums
> 
> i.e j24 forums, merit 25 forums, j30 forums, cal forums, ericson forums, cca era forums, alberg forums, pearson forums, tartan forums, etc...become a member if you have a boat or even if youre just interested in learning from them and sharing then after a while and everyone get to know you you can ask around for some stuff
> 
> you cant lose unless you try it...
> 
> in your case for a kaufman you have more searching to do...BUT if you can contact old owners and or current ones, exchanging info that would help you search for a suitable sail off ANOTHER boat is possible too
> 
> I know I will sound like an ass here but a sail has 3 measurements that will make it fit on a boat...and unless you are dennis conner out there you dont need ALL the measurements a new sail fit to your boat from a loft requests...yes it helps but the specifics can be saved for when you go all out...I will but I wont half ass it either by buying a new sail that fits or performs WORSE than a well cared for used sail
> 
> now just for kicks go get a quote on a new kevlar genoa from north sails for my boat(merit 25) and laugh at the price, ITS NOT CHEAP!
> 
> yes mine has had some 25 odd races on it, but for a cool buck guess whos laughing in the end? I wouldnt if I had a new CRAPPY sail even if its new...
> 
> just sayin
> 
> with that Im out...
> 
> peace


Thanks, yea I looked on Bacon sails and I think my main is equivalent to a J 42 main. But they did have a few sails I could buy for good prices, and are probably a lot better shape than my old bed sheet. I believe it's the original. So I'll look into a J forum to find gems like you did. Even it I get half the life out of a laminate but paid a fraction of a new one I believe I am still ahead.

Much appreciate the advice Christian, again. 

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk


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## gybeho

I am not a big fan of Precision or North Direct.

I bought a genoa a few years ago when the first opened. The UV cover was supposed to be Sunbrella. It may have been but it faded from Captain Navy to almost white in about three months.

It is a very strange company. The hard sell tactics are obnoxious. They send you e-mails just about every month with some new sale offering prices lower than what you paid for. They say they offer a low price guaranty but do not honor it. And worse, they bad mouth ever possible competitor they have.

Once they get the order, they disappear. And you wouldn't believe what I went through trying to get their warranty to cover the mess.

I ended up bringing the sail to a local loft and had them replace the UV.

North Direct? I have a friend with a Beneteau First 235. He ordered a basic Nordac mainsail from them. Was told 4 to 6 weeks for delivery. Ended up taking 4 months. When he bent the sail on, there was hundreds of tiny holes in the cloth. Almost like the sail or cloth had been run through a sewing machine without thread. It took him another three 3 months to get a replacement sail.

If these were the only two sailmakers left on the planet, I would buy a powerboat.

Any North Sail built in Nordac is way overpriced. Precision is a bunch of BS artists. They told me they made their sales in their loft in Canada. But they are actually made by the China Sail Factory. Just look at the pictures of their "loft". I see one sewing machine, hole punch and a very small floor. Now look at the pictures again. There is one or more with 50 or more sailbags on it. No way they were built there. My guess is they just got a load in from China.

I am soooo stupid.:cut_out_animated_em


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## gybeho

Ok.

I hate to pile on but I received yet another e-mail from Precision announcing yet another sale.

It said to click a link for my updated price but it just brought me to my site. No price, no nothing.

I decided to see what their prices were on storm sails and I could not believe what I saw.

These guys actually have the balls to use pictures of boats owned by the U.S. Naval Academy! Maybe I am an idiot but I guaranty that they did not purchase their sails from this outfit.

I am part of a Navy family with my nephew actually graduating Annapolis and I find this stunt disgusting, deplorable and insulting.


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## rckfd

This must be an old post because I don't think there is a North direct anymore other than to sell used sails. Either or I can't imagine buying mail order anyway just from experience getting the right fit even with the sailmaker coming out and measuring.
I've had really a good experience and a very bad one with North so much so I won't be going back. A good cruising sail is going to last 8 to 12 years it's not a place to be cheap. Well, maybe if your dumb enough to by storm sails I guess you could go cheap.

Judy!!!!
Many racing genoas and jibs have very low clews and are "decksweepers". Decksweepers are optimized for upwind work, not reaching. A decksweeper will have some shortcomings for cruisers who generally need an "all purpose" sail. A decksweeper will probably have too much twist to be a good reacher when you ease the sheet (all things being equal). You will need to skirt it over the lifelines. The low clew and foot will catch water if you roll or are in rough water with sheets eased. You won't be able to see under it. 

There is so much wrong with that paragraph!
Seems to me the clew goes up and away when eased.Modern bow pulpits are cut in a way to allow the sail to go outboard. A sail dragging in the water isn't the sails fault but the yahoo thinking that far over on a reach is fast! Yes, you have to skirt it is a little harder to see but to say racing Genny's are for up wind only! Who races windward leeward only anymore? Clew position is the key thats why you install outboard tracks thats why you barber haul its called sail trim.
I like to keep the power in my sails as low as possible for obvious reasons and have always felt the lose of sight and having to skirt an easy trade off. I like some Genny's in a mini skirt just not on my boat!


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## Pamlicotraveler

Dang, I just saw an ad online, probably since I had asked about sails on here, so I requested a quote. I should have looked them up first. And silly me, when the quote request asked for my phone number I entered it. Anyway, sailnet will keep me out of trouble. I'll just have to ignore their aggressive sales tactics...


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## oysterman23

my North Direct sails are two seasons old now and fit well with no fraying or bellying etc etc they took alot of time with me to get the measurements right. I would buy from them again although Im thinking of trying another company for a "downwind" sail this year. Precision just seems pretty iffy.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk


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## jblumhorst

rckfd said:


> This must be an old post because I don't think there is a North direct anymore other than to sell used sails. Either or I can't imagine buying mail order anyway just from experience getting the right fit even with the sailmaker coming out and measuring.
> I've had really a good experience and a very bad one with North so much so I won't be going back. A good cruising sail is going to last 8 to 12 years it's not a place to be cheap. Well, maybe if your dumb enough to by storm sails I guess you could go cheap.
> 
> Judy!!!!
> Many racing genoas and jibs have very low clews and are "decksweepers". Decksweepers are optimized for upwind work, not reaching. A decksweeper will have some shortcomings for cruisers who generally need an "all purpose" sail. A decksweeper will probably have too much twist to be a good reacher when you ease the sheet (all things being equal). You will need to skirt it over the lifelines. The low clew and foot will catch water if you roll or are in rough water with sheets eased. You won't be able to see under it.
> 
> There is so much wrong with that paragraph!
> Seems to me the clew goes up and away when eased.Modern bow pulpits are cut in a way to allow the sail to go outboard. A sail dragging in the water isn't the sails fault but the yahoo thinking that far over on a reach is fast! Yes, you have to skirt it is a little harder to see but to say racing Genny's are for up wind only! Who races windward leeward only anymore? Clew position is the key thats why you install outboard tracks thats why you barber haul its called sail trim.
> I like to keep the power in my sails as low as possible for obvious reasons and have always felt the lose of sight and having to skirt an easy trade off. I like some Genny's in a mini skirt just not on my boat!


My ears were burning :grin

You're obviously somebody who knows how to trim a headsail, and so am I. We can certainly agree on that. I think our only disagreement is on the definition of what constitutes a decksweeper genoa vs a cruising genoa.

I agree whole heartedly that the the lead for a genoa should be moved forward and outboard as you bear off to a reach to control leach twist. As we both know, there are many ways to do that: outboard tracks, twings, barberhaulers (outhaulers), reaching struts and whisker poles.

Our biggest area of disagreement is, I think, the terminology. So I'll set out my ideas aboout what constitutes a decksweeper vs a cruising genoa. :laugh

I define a decksweeper to be a headsail that has the tack and foot low enough to create an endplate effect. The endplate effect, as I'm sure you already know, increases lift and reduces drag by sealing the "air leaks" around the foot of the sail.

By my definition, a decksweeper has the tack right down on the deck (within 75 mm / 3" ), the foot roach is carefully shaped so that it's almost sweeping/touching the deck and the clew is generally approx 250 mm (10") above the track.

When bearing off to a broad reach with apparent wind angles of approximately 55-80 degrees, the decksweeper's clew is going to be significantly outboard of the rail. When the clew that far outboard, an outhauler simply won't produce enough downward pull to keep the clew down. When the clew rises out of control, the upper leech opens and twists off, dumping power. In the broad reaching scenario, the racing crew will rig a pole or reaching strut or something that can pull the decksweeper's clew down and to control leech twist.

In contrast to a decksweeper Genoa, a 30-ish foot cruising boat with a genoa on a furler has the tack above the deck about 300-400 mm (12-15" ). The clew is about 650 mm (26") above the side deck, preferably just above the life lines. I would call that a medium height clew. Most furling sails are designed with a medium height clew to give the lower part of the sail a better wrap around the furler, to make it easier to get the sail inside the lifelines for pointing, to make the sail reach better, and, incidentally, to improve visibility under the sail.

Here'a picture of a J32 (from http://www.jboats.com/j32-performance), with what I would call a cruising genoa with a medium height clew. It's not a decksweeper.










Notice that the clew is above the stanchions, at approx 650 mm (26"). The foot is always at least 300 mm (12") above the deck. The tack is at least 300-350 mm (12-14") above the deck too. It's going to be a good pointer AND a good reacher, without the need for a reaching strut or a whisker pole to control the leech twist.

On a cruising genoa with the tack, foot and clew at least 300-650 mm above the deck there is no endplate effect. Despite the lack of the endplate effect, it's reasonably efficient as a wing, for both pointing and reaching.

When reaching and broad reaching with the apparent wind angle between 55 and 85 (approx), the genoa sheet should be moved forward and outboard (same as a decksweeper).

In contrast to the decksweeper's sheeting geometry with the very low clew, the cruising genoa's clew is considerably higher, and the vertical sheeting angle is sufficient to pull down on the clew as you ease the sheet and the clew goes outboard. It's possible to control leech tension, so there is an appropriate twist in the upper leach.

Cheers,
Judy


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## rckfd

jblumhorst said:


> My ears were burning :grin
> 
> You're obviously somebody who knows how to trim a headsail, and so am I. We can certainly agree on that. I think our only disagreement is on the definition of what constitutes a decksweeper genoa vs a cruising genoa.
> 
> I agree whole heartedly that the the lead for a genoa should be moved forward and outboard as you bear off to a reach to control leach twist. As we both know, there are many ways to do that: outboard tracks, twings, barberhaulers (outhaulers), reaching struts and whisker poles.
> 
> Our biggest area of disagreement is, I think, the terminology. So I'll set out my ideas aboout what constitutes a decksweeper vs a cruising genoa. :laugh
> 
> I define a decksweeper to be a headsail that has the tack and foot low enough to create an endplate effect. The endplate effect, as I'm sure you already know, increases lift and reduces drag by sealing the "air leaks" around the foot of the sail.
> 
> By my definition, a decksweeper has the tack right down on the deck (within 75 mm / 3" ), the foot roach is carefully shaped so that it's almost sweeping/touching the deck and the clew is generally approx 250 mm (10") above the track.
> 
> When bearing off to a broad reach with apparent wind angles of approximately 55-80 degrees, the decksweeper's clew is going to be significantly outboard of the rail. When the clew that far outboard, an outhauler simply won't produce enough downward pull to keep the clew down. When the clew rises out of control, the upper leech opens and twists off, dumping power. In the broad reaching scenario, the racing crew will rig a pole or reaching strut or something that can pull the decksweeper's clew down and to control leech twist.
> 
> In contrast to a decksweeper Genoa, a 30-ish foot cruising boat with a genoa on a furler has the tack above the deck about 300-400 mm (12-15" ). The clew is about 650 mm (26") above the side deck, preferably just above the life lines. I would call that a medium height clew. Most furling sails are designed with a medium height clew to give the lower part of the sail a better wrap around the furler, to make it easier to get the sail inside the lifelines for pointing, to make the sail reach better, and, incidentally, to improve visibility under the sail.
> 
> Here'a picture of a J32 (from Performance), with what I would call a cruising genoa with a medium height clew. It's not a decksweeper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice that the clew is above the stanchions, at approx 650 mm (26"). The foot is always at least 300 mm (12") above the deck. The tack is at least 300-350 mm (12-14") above the deck too. It's going to be a good pointer AND a good reacher, without the need for a reaching strut or a whisker pole to control the leech twist.
> 
> On a cruising genoa with the tack, foot and clew at least 300-650 mm above the deck there is no endplate effect. Despite the lack of the endplate effect, it's reasonably efficient as a wing, for both pointing and reaching.
> 
> When reaching and broad reaching with the apparent wind angle between 55 and 85 (approx), the genoa sheet should be moved forward and outboard (same as a decksweeper).
> 
> In contrast to the decksweeper's sheeting geometry with the very low clew, the cruising genoa's clew is considerably higher, and the vertical sheeting angle is sufficient to pull down on the clew as you ease the sheet and the clew goes outboard. It's possible to control leech tension, so there is an appropriate twist in the upper leach.
> 
> Cheers,
> Judy


Judy,
Let me understand what you're saying is, two sails with the same geometry but the one with less area(foot amputation) trims better? Maybe by moving the clew further up the leech like on a staysail you can delay twist a bit. Also is anything with a foot greater than the j an efficient sail at an angle greater than lets say 65º without compromising its lower aspect? So anything greater than 65º with a sea state that will carry a sail that is larger than the j should we not make a sail change? 
Me, I'm not convinced I still think it's the trimer. Compare the j32 to the one I put up basically same sea state at same true angle. You tell me which of those are twisting off more?

The photo is on the next page


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## rckfd

Here's the picture. Trust me I'm a far better trimer than computer wiz!


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## jblumhorst

rckfd said:


> Judy,
> Let me understand what you're saying is, two sails with the same geometry but the one with less area(foot amputation) trims better? Maybe by moving the clew further up the leech like on a staysail you can delay twist a bit. Also is anything with a foot greater than the j an efficient sail at an angle greater than lets say 65º without compromising its lower aspect? So anything greater than 65º with a sea state that will carry a sail that is larger than the j should we not make a sail change?
> Me, I'm not convinced I still think it's the trimer. Compare the j32 to the one I put up basically same sea state at same true angle. You tell me which of those are twisting off more?
> 
> The photo is on the next page


My point was you can't control shape [twist and angle of attack] when the clew of a deck sweeper is outboard, hence the need to raise the clew.


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## scott karn

Wish I had read this before I went with Precision as well.
First they lost my order but not my deposit.
I didn't hear from them for 3 weeks so decided to call.
Loft owner Darryl finally got the order in the system and did upgrade to Contender cloth
However it came damaged from shipment and after opening up a claim with UPS I never heard another word.
Then the Luff spec was wrong and when I complained I heard CRICKETS again.
Spend the extra money and use a reliable source like North......


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## blazersailing

Any recent experience with Precision Sails, they are having a Black Friday sale, spoke with a rep and he seemed very knowledgeable and answered all my questions. Did not push at all, asked if he could call back and I said yes. Most of the comments here are several years old.


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## nramsey

I've had the same limited experience and the 40% discount they are offering seems too good to be true. Nothing to add except I've been put off by the negative comments in this forum. I won't order until I can see some of their sails in the flesh.


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## DaveJ

I see that these are old posts, but i had a very good experience with a jib that I ordered from Precision Sails for delivery to the east coast in winter 2016/17.

It was not a rush and i expected delivery during the off- season, allowing them ample time to build and honor the discount under which I ordered. I therefore can't comment on their capacity for rush jobs during peak season.

The sail was delivered right at the time that was committed to and the shape and quality are both very good. I will order a mainsail from them as well this winter. 

I was also pleased with the # of dimensions required in the measurement process- They clearly treated it as a custom order and did not go to the computer to find the closest sail from inventory that would "fill the triangle."


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## sailingfool

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Personal Attack removed per forum rules- Jeff_H SailNet moderator

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## DaveJ

For what it's worth, I have been sailing for over 50 yrs with extensive racing and cruising experience in many one design and PHRF class boats and happen to like the jib that i got from precision Sails.


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## Geoff54

Edited to remove misleading statement that a personal attack was made.


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## Jeff_H

Alright folks, lets dial it back. Whether a first time poster or not, all members are to be treated with respect. And whatever you may thing about a first time poster, those of you who are long time contributors should know that Personal attacks are not allowed within the forum rules. 

Jus' Say'n. 

Jeff


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## Geoff54

Jeff_H said:


> Alright folks, lets dial it back. Whether a first time poster or not, all members are to be treated with respect. And whatever you may thing about a first time poster, those of you who are long time contributors should know that Personal attacks are not allowed within the forum rules.
> 
> Jus' Say'n.
> 
> Jeff


Whoooa! Since when does saying that a post lacks credibility become a personal attack. Jeff, there was only one personal attack here and it's obvious which one it was.

Geoff


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## DaveJ

Jeff,

Thanks for keeping us all above the line, me included.


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## sailingfool

Jeff_H said:


> Alright folks, lets dial it back. Whether a first time poster or not, all members are to be treated with respect. And whatever you may thing about a first time poster, those of you who are long time contributors should know that Personal attacks are not allowed within the forum rules.
> 
> Jus' Say'n.
> 
> Jeff


Wow, I believe this is the first time in seventeen years that I have had a post edited by a mod.

I did take a look at the forum rules, and I noted this prohibited behavior:

* Join this forum and use it to *berate* a vendor, dealer or manufacturer.

The thinking behind this rule is why I have often in the past commented on one-time-posters whose only post is to reopen a long dead thread to say something *good* about a vendor...


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## helms alee

I bought a mainsail from Precision Sails and was disappointed with the size. I gave them all the spec's and pictures of my mast and boom but they cut the sail short on both the head and the clew. Furthermore, I have no slugs which should ride in the boom track.To give you an idea of what it looks like, I have a Tanzer 26 and the sail looks like its made for a Tanzer 22. My advise to all, always buy local if you can. Living in Montreal and buying in Vancouver was really not smart on my part.


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## MarkofSeaLife

helms alee said:


> I bought a mainsail from Precision Sails and was disappointed with the size. I gave them all the spec's and pictures of my mast and boom but they cut the sail short on both the head and the clew. Furthermore, I have no slugs which should ride in the boom track.To give you an idea of what it looks like, I have a Tanzer 26 and the sail looks like its made for a Tanzer 22. My advise to all, always buy local if you can. Living in Montreal and buying in Vancouver was really not smart on my part.


They should rectify that! Have you talked to them?


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## jblumhorst

helms alee said:


> I bought a mainsail from Precision Sails and was disappointed with the size. I gave them all the spec's and pictures of my mast and boom but they cut the sail short on both the head and the clew. Furthermore, I have no slugs which should ride in the boom track.To give you an idea of what it looks like, I have a Tanzer 26 and the sail looks like its made for a Tanzer 22. My advise to all, always buy local if you can. Living in Montreal and buying in Vancouver was really not smart on my part.


Are you sure that the luff and foot are too short? Sometimes, to a untrained eye, the sail looks too short compared to the mast and boom, but looks can be deceiving.

Usually the headboard of the main at least 8 to 12 ( or more) inches below the top of the mast. Often, the boom is significantly longer than the foot of the Mainsail, especially on boats with end boom sheeting. The Tanzer 26 Mainsal should have a luff of not longer than 25.25 feet and a foot of less than 10.25 feet. What does the new mainsail measure ( from edge to edge, not grommet to grommet) ?

Also, the lack of slugs all along the foot isn't a bad thing, unless you specifically ordered slugs. Having slugs on the foot is rare for a boat like the Tanzer. Originally, most mainsails from that era had a bolt rope on the foot. But for the last few decades, 99% of all mainsails have been built with a loose foot, and are attached only at the clew and tack. That makes it easier to get the shape you want by adjusting the outhaul.

Judy B 
Sailmaker


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## SchockT

helms alee said:


> I bought a mainsail from Precision Sails and was disappointed with the size. I gave them all the spec's and pictures of my mast and boom but they cut the sail short on both the head and the clew. Furthermore, I have no slugs which should ride in the boom track.To give you an idea of what it looks like, I have a Tanzer 26 and the sail looks like its made for a Tanzer 22. My advise to all, always buy local if you can. Living in Montreal and buying in Vancouver was really not smart on my part.


You say you gave them all the specs....where did those specs come from? Please tell me you didn't just take them off a spec sheet!

The thing about ordering from a local sailmaker is that they will come down to your boat and measure the rig beforehand. That is the only way to make sure the sail will fit.

When you order a sail online the sailmaker is depending on the buyer to make those measurements. If the buyer just took the numbers off a spec sheet without verifying they are correct, or just measured his rig wrong then it's not really the sailmaker fault.

As for the foot, it is not normal to have multiple slugs along the foot. If it is loose footed it will have a single slug at the clew. If there are no slugs then it probably has a foot rope intended to slide into the slot on the boom. These are details that should be discussed when ordering the sail.

Having said that, most reputable sailmaker will try to make it right if you give them the chance.

I would suggest that you take photos of the sail hoisted, and measure the sail. Give them a chance to fix it before you go online and complain about them! Mistakes happen, it's how a company responds to those mistakes that matters!

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## afraidofsharks

I ordered a mainsail from precision a season and a half ago. they made it exactly the way I requested, even though I was a bit naive and ordered it as big I can possibly make it (I told them to make it exactly to my measurements). It ended up working out perfectly even though in retrospect I probably would have made it a few inches smaller. Of course I took my own measurements. First time ordering a sail. I was really happy with the sail so I ordered a 135% Genoa the next season. This one was also really high quality.
I was not naive and that I knew this was an order to China and the shipping time was going to be a while. It took over two months, and that was my expectation.


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