# Blisters on survey - Morgan 38



## datswite (Sep 28, 2010)

I'm considering the purchase of a 1981 Morgan 38. The survey was today. Overall, the boat is in above average condition with the following exceptions - and some blisters.

1. Bent blade on engine prop
2. Needs cutlass bearing
3. Needs prop shaft
4. Leaky seals on Perkins 4-108 (1440 hours)
4. BLISTERS

Here is my question. Should I walk away for blisters? Or, should I negotiate? The largest visible blister was no larger than a quarter and there were many (probably 50-75 - only on the starboard side).


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'd guess the Morgan is a solid glass layup in the hull rather than cored, the blisters may be mostly cosmetic. The other items are going to add up to a a fair bit of coin, and the leaky Perkins is a pretty standard problem, as I recall. Unless you're planning on doing all that work yourself the hours are going to add up quickly, plus parts.

If you're willing to negotiate on all else, then I guess overall it depends on the deal. Get a quote and a gel coat peel/barrier job and see what happens.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Was it docked with the starboard facing south for 25 years and are the blisters all at the waterline?


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## Gladrags1 (Apr 9, 2003)

I'm thinking that the answer to whether you walk depends upon the costs for the repair and whether you can renegotiate the final selling price based upon the results of the survey. Some thoughts:

Cutless bearings all need to be replaced sometime. While it isn't an enjoyable job, it might be one that you can manage yourself depending upon your skill with mechanical stuff. 

Bent blade on the prop; how bent? Sometimes you can repair it. Take it to the prop shop for an evaluation. 

Does the rudder have to be removed to replace the shaft? If so, the marina would have to pick up the boat to drop the rudder and you start running into more $$$. If not, replacing the shaft isn't too onerous. 

The blisters mean a bottom job with peel and re-epoxy. That can be expensive. The person who posted above asked a good question; are the blisters at or close to the waterline? If so, it might have occurred because the boat might have floated below her lines and the PO raised the waterline. The side of the hull now wetted may not have been protected by an osmotic barrier. Maybe the "bottom job" can be confined to the strip of hull near the current stripe? Talk with an expert and get some prices / options.

How bad are the leaks in the engine? I assume you are referring to the transmission seal? Cost / necessity of repair?

This is a "buyers market" and the seller knows that these problems will impact any possible sales. I would get prices for repairs and attempt to renegotiate based on what they are. The surveyor had to come up with a value for the boat. How close is the value and the selling price? If the boat is in as good of a shape as you report, these items shouldn't be a deal breaker necessarily. 

Morgan made a good, solid boat. The "bones" should be good. Good luck with your decision. 

Tod


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Don't rite a boat off because you can see blisters, many boats have been sold with a clean bum only to reveal a myriad of blisters on the next haul out. Better to know Now and be prepared than shocked later.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

too many really nice boats at a good price to spend time with this one, unless the price reflects the repairs needed. The blisters will definitely be a show stopper when you go to sell this boat, fixed or not fixed - buyers will walk unless the whole hull has been peeled and repaired correctly.

YMMV


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

datswite said:


> I'm considering the purchase of a 1981 Morgan 38. The survey was today. Overall, the boat is in above average condition with the following exceptions - and some blisters.
> 
> 1. Bent blade on engine prop
> 2. Needs cutlass bearing
> ...


..THAT'S ALL? No bulkhead rot?

Cute how you capitalized the word blisters  The oil leaks, bent shaft and all would concern me more.

You don't say where the blisters are.. waterline? (common) or big bubbles pulling the glass and gelcoat off the hull.

If your not going to strip and barrier coat an older boat then buy a newer one. It's not must do, but it is a very worthwhile "upgrade"

Next questions would be; are you going to do the work yourself? If not look for a boat without those problems and about $15-30,000 Higher priced 

Good luck!


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

Blisters...!!!









It's not the end of the world... (or the end of the boat)

But it is a $10k job if you don't DIY...


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## 4arch (Jul 7, 2009)

It would be worth trying to connect with other Morgan 38 owners to see if boats of the same make, model, and vintage have similar issues. Presumably the value would be less negatively impacted if yours was a blister boat among blister boats than if it's truly an outlier.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Prop shaft, cutlass bearing would be less than $800. Parts are only about $300, Propeller repair,,,depends. If you ahve the prop shaft done either spring for a PSY driples ( anouther $300), and if not have the stuffing box looked at and replace the rubber stern tube. All part of the labor of pulling a shaft. We had the above done with PSY installed and new coupler for about $1000 last summer.

Blisters are another issue.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Blisters of that size can be easily fixed as a DIY, pop them, dry them, grind out, fair with epoxy, two days. 

Morgan's are strong boats, don't pass up a champion if it's got what you want for what you want to pay.


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## datswite (Sep 28, 2010)

Thanks for all of the replies. I plan to do as much work myself as possible. But blisters (and evaluating them) are new to me. My 3-5 year plan is to cruise, so I'm looking for a good/strong foundation. I hope to circumnavigate in the long term.

Budgets are what budgets are, and this Morgan certainly fits mine. Bumping up the price by $15k would buy another boat with different/expensive problems. This Morgan is in great shape otherwise.

I've read so many different opinions about blisters. I've read that most repairs fail, and they are often not even worth addressing. The blisters are not on the waterline. They are on the top of the keel and the side of the hull just above the keel. Again, all on the starboard side.

I don't know how much the seller will come down off of his price. He seemed reluctant to sell at the price we previously agreed on. He also claimed that he had never seen blisters before. 

It's tough to find a bluewater boat in good condition at this price point.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Datswite, there is so much information you are leaving out of this discussion. Is he keel bolt on or encapsulated? lead or iron? Owner is a lair or the boat has been in the water longer then both of you think.

Don't know what your reading, but MOST blister repairs do not fail.

Oil leaks. WHERE?

Circumnavigate... in a Morgan 38?

Based on so little that your telling us I'd buy the boat!

Is this anything like it?


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## datswite (Sep 28, 2010)

Denise - It's a 1981 Morgan 382. Modified keel (encapsulated lead), skeg-mounted rudder. Holding tank and fuel tank integral to the keel. Perkins leaks from the rear seal - 1440 hours. Started right up Saturday morning - outside temp in the high 30's. From my research, many 382's have gone around. Right ocean, right season, right?

I've read numerous articles on the web that suggest that blister repairs fail. Others say not. That's the problem. Which one to believe? My 1976 Hunter shows no signs of blistering, but I've not taken off the bottom paint to verify whether or not it has had them in the past. I've had her for about 4 years. 

The boat is in good condition, overall. It needs new standing rigging and new sails. The deck is solid with no signs of water intrusion. Chainplates are still shiny. No signs of rotten wood anywhere. Water tanks seem fine. Fuel tank seems fine. Bare bones in terms of equipment.

Our pre-survey negotiated price stands at $35k.


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## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

While the survey discovered the blisters, I'm not sure if a laminate profile was done. I had a laminate profile done last year on my boat and it cost about 200 dollars in the Annapolis area. That way you get a more detail description of the problem and possible remedies. Good luck.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Blister repairs don't 'fail' - boats get new blisters if the entire bottom isn't done. The underlying cause of blisters (which many will argue on) are not corrected by spot repairs. 

The first step is to get all the old paint off so you can see blisters. Then every haul out you fix what you see, or get the whole bottom done once. 

My Irwin's PO found one blister during his purchase survey - he had the whole bottom redone. That job came with a 10 year warranty, eight years ago. I'm not sweating the entire bottom falling off.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Cool! here's a review Morgan 382 Sailboat Review | Cruising World

and more information http://morgan38.org/index.html


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## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

Datswite
I assume you have been looking around and know what’s out there. Not counting the blister and engine repairs, you’ll end up with a $55K boat - $20k additional for rigging and sails. Are you sure there is nothing out there with new sails and rig for $55K?
The blisters – are they in the region of the integral water tank? Would there be problems with immersion on both sides? Curious because its only on one side.

If you really like the boat, which it seems you do, make an offer discounting the repairs estimation from specialists. Don’t make heart decision, do it from your head.

Just my 3 cents.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

chucklesR said:


> My Irwin's PO found one blister during his purchase survey - he had the whole bottom redone. That job came with a 10 year warranty, eight years ago. I'm not sweating the entire bottom falling off.


wow! 
We did a BC on my O30 about 4 yrs ago now. The blisters that were pea size along the water line pretty much were just in the gel coat. the bottom had a few dozen larger ones that I broke out and found dry core.. I filled and faired all those (with help) then we did the BC. Love it! if you can love such things LOL


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

datswite said:


> Denise - It's a 1981 Morgan 382. Modified keel (encapsulated lead), skeg-mounted rudder. Holding tank and fuel tank integral to the keel. Perkins leaks from the rear seal - 1440 hours. Started right up Saturday morning - outside temp in the high 30's. From my research, many 382's have gone around. Right ocean, right season, right?
> 
> I've read numerous articles on the web that suggest that blister repairs fail. Others say not. That's the problem. Which one to believe? My 1976 Hunter shows no signs of blistering, but I've not taken off the bottom paint to verify whether or not it has had them in the past. I've had her for about 4 years.
> 
> ...


I'ver heard that all surveyors say "replace standing rigging" but most only inspect it superficially. I can be replaced in bits a pieces rather then all at once.

You can do the blister repairs. nothing to be reluctant about there. I little crash course on epoxy and you will be a "epoxyist" Like most of us. 

Fuel tanks get pin holes. but not really all that expensive if you use "off the shelf"

Engine.. if your going on a circnav I'm sure you'd have new or built the engine anyway.

go for it! again.. with your mind not your heart.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

You really should find out how much these boats are selling for before you start discounting for repairs.

My quick search tells me the average retail is 26K-30K.

Here is my obnoxious opinion and some fun facts (feel free to ignore me);
1. Repairing these blisters is labor intensive and the cost of having a pro do it is going to be 1/3+ of the boats value.
2. According to you, the boat is only in "average condition" so we are not looking at anything special. So at 35K she's already 13% OVERPRICED.
3. IF you get a yard involved in all these repairs you risk entering their world, their time table, their employees. We have all been in that special plane of hell where nothing gets done or things get done wrong and you come back next year -10K but with more blisters and play the blame game. It's not worth the stress.
4. Too many other boats out there. This one is only worth the 15K and you do all the labor. Sorry, but it had to be said.

Offer them 12K, go up to 15K. They will act insulted. You will walk away. Start your search all over again. If nothing comes up in three months, call them back with the same offer. No one is going to jump on this boat with the engine and drive train issues, internal and external blisters. As others said, too many other boats out there.

The truth hurts.

Years ago someone spent a lot of money on her. Loved her and cared for her. Now they leave her sitting with blisters, a leaky engine, bent shaft and prop. They no longer care. She is no longer loved.

It's not worth it to them to do what needs to be done. Why? She is being sold so they can get something younger, nimbler, faster, sexier. So you have to pay in dollars, blood, sweat and tears because they choose to move on?

Tell them to find another sucker.


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## datswite (Sep 28, 2010)

Rob - Where did you find these prices? I don't remember saying it was in average condition. If I did, it was poor choice of words. It's certainly in much better condition than other bluewater capable boats I've seen in this price range. In a previous discussion I started on this board, someone else posted the last 3 years of Yachtworld asking/closing prices on this boat. $35k seemed very competitive.

These are currently for sale on Yachtworld: Morgan 382 boats for sale - www.yachtworld.com

Here is the other thread. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/morgan/96873-morgan-382-value.html

Again, thanks for all of the comments! Keep 'em coming!

Ken


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

datswite said:


> I'm considering the purchase of a 1981 Morgan 38. The survey was today. Overall, the boat is in above average condition with the following exceptions - and some blisters.
> 
> 1. Bent blade on engine prop
> 2. Needs cutlass bearing
> ...


I took the liberty to hi-lite. You did say above average, sorry.

http://www.nadaguides.com/Boats/1981/Morgan-Marine/MORGAN-38-SL/10123762/Values

Either way, I knew my words would sting. Take them at their worth to you.

I recently had two boats surveyed, identical model racer/cruisers, 1988. Both started at just under 40K.

Boat A made an offer of 30K before survey, upped it to 32K, pre survery, both offers rejected.

Boat B made an offer of 32K pre survey. Post survey boat was offer of 22K, rejected.

Returned to boat A months later and paid for a survey. offer of 27K was accepted immediately.

Boat B one year later is listed at 26K

Lesson here is what people are asking is seldom related to the boats actual worth.


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## RonRelyea (Nov 18, 2009)

David Pascoe has performed over 5,000 marine surveys, both pleasure craft and commercial. I'd trust his credentials ... here's links to some of his articles on BLISTERS!

Hull Blisters on Boats and Yachts - by David Pascoe, Marine Surveyor

Buying a Boat or Yacht : Buying a Blister Boat

David Pascoe, Marine Surveyor


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## datswite (Sep 28, 2010)

Rob - They don't sting at all, and I appreciate the input. I'm trying to make an informed decision, and your thoughts are valid. I only questioned because your comments on price were contrary to my research. I checked the NADA guides, too. I've read that NADA numbers aren't reflective of what the market really is. Again, conflicting opinions all over the internet.

I have no intention of paying $35k for this boat. If it didn't have blisters, and the rest of the survey was good, I would have. Only because the Yachtworld numbers from the last 3 years seemed to support this price. The owner was asking $44k pre-survey. Again, inline with other asking prices. Subtracting broker fees (since we're not using a broker), the average closing price over the last 3 years supported the $35k price. 

Again, I'm looking for a bluewater capable boat in this price range. All boats are going to have issues/problems. Particularly those with the design/build quality for how I intend to use it. What I'm asking is essentially this... should I walk over blisters provided the owner will negotiate the price because of them? Will blisters, if properly addressed, still compromise the safety of the vessel? 

No blisters on inspection doesn't mean that a boat hasn't had blisters in the past or won't have them in the future. I'd have to remove the bottom paint to verify.

Again, please keep the comments coming. I'm not offended by frank opinions. And, I'm certainly not trying to argue.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

datswite said:


> Rob - They don't sting at all, and I appreciate the input. I'm trying to make an informed decision, and your thoughts are valid. I only questioned because your comments on price were contrary to my research. I checked the NADA guides, too. I've read that NADA numbers aren't reflective of what the market really is. Again, conflicting opinions all over the internet.
> 
> I have no intention of paying $35k for this boat. If it didn't have blisters, and the rest of the survey was good, I would have. Only because the Yachtworld numbers from the last 3 years seemed to support this price. The owner was asking $44k pre-survey. Again, inline with other asking prices. Subtracting broker fees (since we're not using a broker), the average closing price over the last 3 years supported the $35k price.
> 
> ...


NADA values seems low to sellers and brokers  Lenders will look at the NADA value as well as the survey.

Here is an idea. Cold call a broker and offer him whatever he deems reasonable for an hours work (in cash) to look up and print out the actual sale price of every early '80's Morgan 38 that has been sold in the last five years.

Then walk into your bank and ask them how much they would loan you on the boat.

edit: I know the boat is older than 25 yrs so actually getting a "boat loan" would be tough. What I meant was just ask them in theory.


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## NJBoatDad (Apr 2, 2013)

Great questions Capttb!!


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## datswite (Sep 28, 2010)

I just realized that I never followed-up with this post!!

I decided to buy the boat. The seller was willing to negotiate the selling price a bit - he wasn't going to pay for a peel, but his price certainly will offset the cost of me doing it myself. We closed the deal in mid-March, and I delivered her to her new home in Cobb Island, MD.

I've taken her on several trips in/around the tidal Potomac over the last few months, and I love her! Pre-cruise preparations will begin when I haul her for the winter. As it stands, I plan to move onboard in the summer of 2015 - with a mid-Atlantic departure following the hurricane season.

Here she is after her bottom job - Fall 2012


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Peal??? Not necessary. geeze! Grind and do barrier coat. It's tough. really tough. Pretty boat!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

My newish boat had a fair number of blisters found during the survey. Seriously...not a big deal. No freakin' way I'd pay to do a peel.

When I was having the standing rigging replaced, I saw a boat at the yard that was in the midst of a peel. It had been in their "garage" for almost a year drying out, with the bottom ground off to the bare glass. Looked like a Pearson.

They'll pay tens of thousands for that work, then have blisters in another 10 years. That's just the price of keeping a boat in warm water for years on end.

Denise is right - just manage it with barrier coating.

Great looking boat Dat.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Re the Perkins 4108 rear seal leak. Yup they do do that, there is a fix around from Foleyengines which helps.


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## datswite (Sep 28, 2010)

Oh, there is no way in the world I'm gonna do a peel. I was simply using that statement to demonstrate how much the seller came off of his price because of the blisters.

I plan to haul her in the fall, strip the bottom and open up the blisters myself. I'll let it dry over the winter and then button her up. 

I've spent he last four months digging into every crevice onboard, and, aside from the issue listed in the original post, she is in fantastic condition! I certainly bought the right boat, I think. No buyer's remorse here!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Pictures? You have me wanting to look into Morgans now. My boat had lots of pimples all dry. and most were just in the gelcoat itself. I paid a friend (had money then) to grind it all off to with 50 and 36 grit and then we applied 2000E. Best thing ever did to the boat.. except not sand when it was time to apply bottom paint. 

I'm very interested in the Keels on Morgans. Lead? bolts? Access to them? 
Congrats again!


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## datswite (Sep 28, 2010)

deniseO30 said:


> Pictures? You have me wanting to look into Morgans now. My boat had lots of pimples all dry. and most were just in the gelcoat itself. I paid a friend (had money then) to grind it all off to with 50 and 36 grit and then we applied 2000E. Best thing ever did to the boat.. except not sand when it was time to apply bottom paint.
> 
> I'm very interested in the Keels on Morgans. Lead? bolts? Access to them?
> Congrats again!


It's an encapsulated lead keel. No bolts. I'll try to post some more pics of the boat. Here is a video from the pre-offer test sail.


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## datswite (Sep 28, 2010)

Here is a small photo album.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gg9q1bavnzx5mtm/x9pOukYrFi


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## datswite (Sep 28, 2010)

TQA said:


> Re the Perkins 4108 rear seal leak. Yup they do do that, there is a fix around from Foleyengines which helps.


Have you tried it? I've seen this mentioned a few times around the net, but it gets mixed reviews.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Nice! I can see why they are so wanted. spacious! My Oday30 has an encapsulated keel too.


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