# Soft Deck Repair



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I have looked a many, many plastic classics the last few months. Many of them have soft decks. This seems to be the death knell for a boat that has max value of maybe 15 to 20 thousand. Wouldn't it be lovely (queue "Sound of Music" soundtrack) to come up with an efficient way to fix a deck to save these boats. I know the right way to do it. I've seen the pictures
http://www.triton381.com/projects/restoration/recore.html. 
http://www.westsystem.com/ewmag/19/Replacing_Core.html
Maybe there is a quicker way that for some boats would be good enough. Better than the alternative, the chainsaw.
The following methods will probably not work; I have never seen them in print before. The intent is to provoke discussion, possibly learn a technique you have used successfully but never discussed in public. Maybe one of my wacky ideas could be mutated by wiser people into something workable.

Bad Idea #1:
1.	Remove the cabin port lights and hatches, deck hardware, rub rail etc. I know, I know there are a ton of things to take off and reattach. 
2.	Build a cradle just like a hull cradle but with many more contact points for the deck to support the deck shape.
3.	Use a metal saw to cut the hull deck bolts.
4.	Invert the whole deck. Now you know why you need the deck cradle. How much can a deck weigh anyway?
5.	So far I have not seen much softness in the cabin but always on side deck. Cut large portions of inside deck liner off. Fix core and reattach deck liner. Patch joints with accent trim.
6.	Flip deck over and reattach.

Bad Idea #2
1.	Create a Sistine Chapel type of scaffolding inside the boat so you can lie down and work on the underside of the deck in comfort.
2.	Using a plumber's saw cut out 4" to 6" holes in the inside skin in a honey comb pattern. 
3.	Replace core material and glue back circles.
4.	Add a layer or two of fiberglass cloth for strength.
5.	Finish with wood strips, soft headliner etc.

Of course it is unlikely to expect that any deck job is going to be easy. The problem with the Triton381 restore method is that re-faring and refinishing the deck takes a very high level of skill if it is to look good. I'm hoping that working from the inside where mistakes can be hidden easier may be faster.

What do you all think?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Umm... the first method is a really bad idea. The deck provides much of the strength of a boat, in terms of rigidity, and I seriously doubt that you could reattach the severed deck to the rest of the boat well enough to take the loads that a sailboat tends to exert on the deck. The chances of the deck leaking at the points it is re-attached is exceptionally high as well... 

As for bad idea #2. same problem... you're effectively gutting most of the strength of the deck and then trying to put it back in patchwork pieces. When you're re-coring a soft deck, you really want the core material to be a large single piece rather than little pieces. The gaps between the pieces of new core can introduce "hard" spots which can cause the laminate to hinge at that point. If the laminate starts to flex at those hard spots, it will fail. You can't just stuff core material in through the little holes you cut, since it will be hard to guarantee that it will bond properly to the remaining honeycomb structure—leading to early delamination and voids. 

The advantage of working from the outside, as in the Triton381 project, is that gravity is on your side...rather than working against you. It is also easier to work on larger areas, since you aren't confined by the cabin and the interior furniture. 

If you're applying a non-skid treatment to the deck, the refinishing process doesn't have to be all that perfect. Of course, if the existing deck exterior is in good shape, you could always make a mold of it, and then after finishing the core repair, use the mold to help re-finish the deck. But making such a mold would be a fairly labor intensive job, and might not result in an acceptable finish.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*David..*



davidpm said:


> I have looked a many, many plastic classics the last few months. Many of them have soft decks. This seems to be the death knell for a boat that has max value of maybe 15 to 20 thousand. Wouldn't it be lovely (queue "Sound of Music" soundtrack) to come up with an efficient way to fix a deck to save these boats. I know the right way to do it. I've seen the pictures
> http://www.triton381.com/projects/restoration/recore.html.
> http://www.westsystem.com/ewmag/19/Replacing_Core.html
> Maybe there is a quicker way that for some boats would be good enough. Better than the alternative, the chainsaw.
> ...


Both of the methods you mention will require a far deeper level of skill, time and money than what is required by doing it the right way or the Tim Lackey way. How much can a deck weigh? LOTS especially wet!! Not to mention that the hull and deck won't want to go back together or come apart for that matter and you'll need as ceiling crane/hoist..

Filling, fairing and re-doing the non skid is actually a very low tech job and does not entail or require a lot of skill just patience, a good eye and a good sander... Oh and reading some books or web sites like Tim's...


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

What is a good non-skid surface?


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Making a mold would be pretty labor intensive. A template in crucial areas might work a little better, and you can make those out of heavy cardboard or plastic sheets, etc. Make a couple for cross sections and one that goes lengthwise of the deck. Should get you close with just the cost of time and cardboard. A contour gauge would also help.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

It depends. You can mold in a non-skid texture into the epoxy fairing or gelcoat. You can paint on a non-skid surface, like DuraBak or with a traditional non-skid deckpaint. Or you can apply a non-skid surface treatment like Tredmaster.



davidpm said:


> What is a good non-skid surface?


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

The problem will be that once the deck is taken off like that, the hull will move... perhaps not much, but it will move. Getting the deck back on there again may not be so easy.

It is such a stupid material to use for deck core. It rots. Of all the modern material choices, do we really have to use balsa? What's wrong with honeycomb? Does that rot?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Rockter-

End-grain balsa does have some benefits over some of the other materials. 

First, it tends to not let water migrate over long distances, keeping the damage relatively localized, compared to a foam core material.

Second, it tends to be much more stable in high heat, so a dark colored deck, might deform if cored with foam, would not if cored with balsa.

Third, balsa has much greater shear and compressive strength compared to the foams generally used in boat laminates. 

Fourth, end-grain balsa tends to bond to the laminate skins far better than do the foams, due to the capillary action of the balsa helping the resin stick to it. Most of the foams have to be coated with some sort of material to make the resin stick to it properly, and that is more likely to leave voids in the laminate.

Yes, balsa will rot... but only if it is exposed to water and air... if the balsa is properly sealed and potted where there are penetrations through the cored laminate, it is a very good material, and likely to last a very long time.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

let me take a stab at this one. ( I think allot)  Layout a grid pattern.. drill holes in the deck, but not through the underside. The holes need to be big enough to let you push a flexible rod that will make channels interconnecting to each hole from at least 4 directions. Once the channels are clear to each hole, use a pump of some sort that will force epoxy, (low visc) through the channels, allowing the core to be saturated. Now after it's all been pumped and the core is saturated.. drill though, and with bolts and large washers draw the deck down to the ceiling to insure the core is compressed enough for the epoxy to lock it all together. After all the curing is done the holes can be filled with epoxy putty. This would not deal with refinishing the non skid. (sand it off and make it a new top coat of glass? or new non skid paint? This is a variation of how they reattach plaster to old wood lath in old building walls. 

I know! I think too much!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The problem is that the channels will be voids or filled with relatively brittle solid epoxy. Solid epoxy is relatively brittle, which is why they generally thicken it.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

OK then we use flexipoxy! now.. how do you thin it? LOL


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

davidpm said:


> Bad Idea #1:
> 1.	Remove the cabin port lights and hatches, deck hardware, rub rail etc. I know, I know there are a ton of things to take off and reattach.
> 2.	Build a cradle just like a hull cradle but with many more contact points for the deck to support the deck shape.
> 3.	Use a metal saw to cut the hull deck bolts.
> ...


Actually, I think this is a pretty good idea.

Your deck cradle would be easy to build out of lumber. You're not cutting apart the cabin roof, so it doesn't need much support. If you work on flat ground, the cradle doesn't have to be very strong -- it could be built in a bunch of modules that all come up to the same plane above the boat. Supporting the deck at its perimeter at the right elevation relative to the rest is the goal.

I'd use 2x2s with plywood gussets for these modules. A miter saw, drywall screws and a screwgun and you'd have it together in no time. A water level will keep it all on the same plane.

For deck weight, figure a 1/8" fiberglass skin is one pound per square foot. A half inch of wet balsa maybe a pound and a half. More than a few guys can lift on any size of boat, but it's nothing for a boom truck. They charge ~$100/hour with a 3 hour minimum. Ask around and you might find someone to work considerably cheaper for cash. Also ask around if anyone else needs crane work so that you can split costs with them.

Unless you're dealing with some kind of trailer sailer, the boat will have all the internal bulkheads and furniture to hold the hull in shape while the deck is off.

Rather than cutting the bolts at the hull deck joint, take off the nuts and unscrew them all. Use a drill and big screwdriver bit. Sawing is going to make a mess. By undoing the screws, if they're OK, you can use them again.

When making your deck cradle, I'd think about building about waist high. Your back will thank you. 

A boom truck will be handy for putting the deck back on. If you put the cleats on the deck, once it's flipped back over you can lift by the cleats so there are no straps running under the deck. You can then set the deck down and see how much wiggling will be required to line up the holes. A dry fit test, as it were. If the hull has flexed out, see about rigging a tackle across from the chain plate knees. If it's flexed in, run a board across with wedges.

When things fit OK, lift the deck a little, smear the hull flange with 3M 5200 then set the deck down on one end. Use a tapered pry bar to line up holes and start putting screws back in. Work along both sides until you get to the other end. If you have the toe rail on the deck (maybe even glue it on before hand with 5200), and smear some 5200 under the screw heads before you put them in, all your bedding work will be done.

You can put the nuts on before the 5200 cures but don't tighten more than finger tight to keep from squeezing the 5200 out. If you put the nuts on after the 5200 has cured, it will be smeared on the threads and make putting the nuts on a lot of work. Once it is all cured, have someone on deck with a big screwdriver and wrench to keep the screws from turning when you're tightening the nuts.

I've got a 34 foot project boat with soft decks. It's the kind of deal you're talking about -- I paid more for the trucking to get it home than for the boat. The deck top surfaces are good, so I was planning on cutting out the undersides and vacuum bagging in new core and putting a new laminate on. However, working overhead inside the boat is going to be no fun at all. Pulling the deck could very well be the overall easier solution.

Cheers,

Tim


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Tim-

If the hull-deck join needs re-bedding anyway... then that might really make a lot of sense.


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## soulesailor (Nov 18, 2007)

Why not do it like the triton? It seems to me this method is by far the easiest of all methods discussed. No taking the entire deck off, no building a cradle or hoisting something unwieldy, no working in the confines of the inside of the boat, gravity is on your side (as previously mentioned), the panels of deck glass will fair the deck out pretty well when reinstalled. The only thing I might change from the triton method is replacing the core material from plywood to cedar strips. Plywood isn't that stiff laid flat and your deck might have a bounce to it which might produce a delam later. Cedar strips are light and stiff and will hold glue or epoxy well on all sides. As sailingdog mentioned, epoxy is brittle and weak on its own so I would try hard to avoid any big voids; epoxy also weighs a lot and using more than you need to will make your deck heavy quickly. Good luck!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Soulesailor-

I would highly recommend going with either end-grain balsa or one of the PVC foams, like Airex or Divylcell. The reason I don't like Cedar strips is much the same as why I don't like plywood. Both have the weakness of allowing the water to migrate and don't contain water intrusion to a small area. Both will rot, although cedar is more rot resistant than is Balsa. Also, both are heavier than the foam or balsa.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*If the method listed above*

If the method listed above were actually easier then that's exactly how the pro's or anyone in the know would do it.

How about we walk through this reasoning...

#1 Let's see.... When I dropped my keel to re-set it it still stayed glued to the boat with no keel nuts on it. 5200 is basically permanent and it took a sawzall to get it off the boat even weighing over 5000lbs and hanging free except for the 5200. So how are you going to get 73 feet of deck seam apart 34X2+5 feet of transom easily?

#2 In order to even get at the hull to deck bolts you'll have to remove interior cabinetry by, at a minimum, drilling bungs. You will then will have to match the finish when you put everything back together in 50 to 100 places or bungs. Mixing a two part paint, adding in non skid and rolling on the non-skid is far easier than re-finishing interior wood to get a perfect match!

#3 On most all quality built boats the bulkheads are glassed into the deck and hull so you'll have to grind out the bulkheads then re-glass those for the re-build.

#4 On may boats the chain plates will need to be removed another major job on many boats.

#5 The entire steering system and rudder on many production boats will need to be disconnected and the rudder dropped.

#6 Scupper hoses deck drain hoses etc. will all need to be removed and re-installed.

#7 Engine gauges and instrumentation penetrating the deck will need to be removed

#8 Stem head and stern chain plates on most boats will need to be removed.

9#You will still need to remove all deck hard ware so that's a break even.

#10 The labor involved, on most boats, just to R&R the rub rail and remove the deck bolts is a full two plus day job this after removing any interior obstacles.

#11 On many boats the wiring is run through the headliner so this will need to be removed as well as the wiring.

#12 On many production boats O'Day, Catalina, Cal, Pearson etc. the headliner is molded fiberglass that is glued to the underside of the deck, at the factory, usually with something like 5200, so how on earth are you going to remove the molded fiberglass headliner to actually get at the deck you need to cut out?

#13 If it's a vinyl headliner with zippers and foam underlayment like on Ericson's et.al you're going to need to completely replace it as they DO NOT usually come out in one piece or go back in that way.

I could go on, and on, and on, but suffice it to say I want the drugs you guys are taking that think splitting the boat in half is the easier way to repair soggy decks!!!!

If you guys don't have the skill or savvy to fill, laminate, feather, fair and paint a deck then you most likely don't have the skills necessary to remove a deck and re-install it!!

Here's the easy the repair:

1# Locate wet areas with moisture meter and soundings. Cut the affected area's top skin off with a Dremel or air powered cut off wheel about 2.5 inches inside the non-skid this is where you'll feather it back in.

2# Carve out the rotted balsa making sure to reach about an inch or two under each edge or to the edge of the affected area.

#3 Mix cabosil or what ever your favorite filler is and epoxy and fill the edges under the over hanging deck. Sometimes balsa + filer is needed.

#4 Mix you're filler of choice and slather it on the bottom skin.

#5 Cut your balsa and place it over this filler and push it into the mixture.

#6 Mix up more of your favorite filler and fill any remaining voids

#7 feather those edges of the deck with a grinder or sander.

#8 Clean your top skin and feather those edges

#9 Make more of your favorite filler slather the skin and the top of the balsa then lay the skin back down and weight it with bricks

#10 Tape off around the old non skid with two or three layers of tape so you don't sand through it.

#11 Using fiberglass "tape" laminate your feathered edges back together

#12 Begin filling and fairing and sanding off any non skid texture from the factory

#13 Remove the tape from the glassing and fairing process & tape off where you want your new non skid with new tape.

#14 Mix a good two part LPU paint and your non skid of choice and roll it on using a good respirator per manufacturers directions which is usually about as easy as baking cookies.

Using the above method you only affect the original non-skid areas which can easily be repaired & painted most often leaving the smooth part of the deck untouched and original. Having done this before I can tell you it's a fairly easy process and FAR, FAR, FAR easier than removing the deck....


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

soulesailor said:


> Why not do it like the triton?


It depends on what you've got. If the gelcoat and nonskid are shot and you're planning on redoing them anyway, then the cuts through the top of the deck will be hidden by the refinishing.

On the other hand, if you've got good gelcoat and molded in nonskid, going through the top of the deck means either you're going to live with very obvious patches or you have to replace all the nonskid and fill, fair, prime and paint the top of the boat so everything matches.

This project boat I have is in the latter category. Resale value takes a big hit if there are big patches on the deck and it takes a lot of cost and labor to do a good paint job -- see all the work that went into making that Triton's deck look respectable. Going in from the bottom takes more work to replace the core, but it avoids a lot of work refinishing the boat.

Cheers,

Tim


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Tim...*

let us all know how splitting your boat apart goes... I would guess the re-sale value of a project boat in two pieces that some one gave up on would be far less than that of one that had deck repairs done..

For what it's worth I helped a buddy sand off all his light blue molded in non skid (Pearson 30), no deck repair though, and re-paint it with a two part LPU with non skid added. We sanded the entire texture off and faired it back out in 31 hours of easy labor. We then taped off the deck and painted it in another 7 hours of labor.. Less than 40 hours and we gouged and filled a lot of crazing while we were at it...

You'll have more than that in labor just removing interior components to get ready for the unbolting of the deck...


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

halekai36 said:


> If the method listed above were actually easier then that's exactly how the pro's or anyone in the know would do it.


Pros don't touch old boats with rotten deck core. They chainsaw them.



> #1 Let's see.... When I dropped my keel to re-set it it still stayed glued to the boat with no keel nuts on it. 5200 is basically permanent and it took a sawzall to get it off the boat even weighing over 5000lbs and hanging free except for the 5200. So how are you going to get 73 feet of deck seam apart 34X2+5 feet of transom easily?


Older boats weren't assembled with 5200 in the hull deck joint. The boat I have used butyl tape. Do you suppose that will support the weight of the boat?



> #2 In order to even get at the hull to deck bolts you'll have to remove interior cabinetry by, at a minimum, drilling bungs. You will then will have to match the finish when you put everything back together in 50 to 100 places or bungs. Mixing a two part paint, adding in non skid and rolling on the non-skid is far easier than re-finishing interior wood to get a perfect match!


My boat has upholstered strips covering this hardware. No bungs to drill.

I've also got molded in nonskid. And good gelcoat. The sand-in-paint is going to scream repaired deck, unless I redo the whole top of the boat.



> #3 On most all quality built boats the bulkheads are glassed into the deck and hull so you'll have to grind out the bulkheads then re-glass those for the re-build.


Some do, some don't. Mine doesn't.



> #4 On may boats the chain plates will need to be removed another major job on many boats.


Mine are easily accessible.



> #5 The entire steering system and rudder on many production boats will need to be disconnected and the rudder dropped.


I need to undo the steering cable and four bolts for the pedestal. The pedestal is coming off anyway for repainting.



> #6 Scupper hoses deck drain hoses etc. will all need to be removed and re-installed.


Scupper fittings are coming out for rebedding.



> #7 Engine gauges and instrumentation penetrating the deck will need to be removed


Four screws for the engine panel.



> #8 Stem head and stern chain plates on most boats will need to be removed.


Six hex bolts.



> 9#You will still need to remove all deck hard ware so that's a break even.


Fair enough.



> #10 The labor involved, on most boats, just to R&R the rub rail and remove the deck bolts is a full two plus day job this after removing any interior obstacles.


My rub rail needs sections replaced, anyway. I've pulled the deck joint bolts on a 26' boat in about two hours. Maybe this 34 will take two days. Who knows?



> #11 On many boats the wiring is run through the headliner so this will need to be removed as well as the wiring.


Mine is just the wiring to different lamps. I'll disconnect at each lamp and reconnect when done.



> #12 On many production boats O'Day, Catalina, Cal, Pearson etc. the headliner is molded fiberglass that is glued to the underside of the deck, at the factory, usually with something like 5200, so how on earth are you going to remove the molded fiberglass headliner to actually get at the deck you need to cut out?


You only need to cut out where the deck is rotten. At most that's the side decks and foredeck above the v-berth. The v-berth section will be cut out at its bulkhead, so if the liner section doesn't peel off in one piece, it'll be replaced with upholstery or something. The liner at the side decks isn't very visible, either, so it gets replaced with trim of some sort.



> #13 If it's a vinyl headliner with zippers and foam underlayment like on Ericson's et.al you're going to need to completely replace it as they DO NOT usually come out in one piece or go back in that way.


Ditto. Just cut what you need to.



> If you guys don't have the skill or savvy to fill, laminate, feather, fair and paint a deck then you most likely don't have the skills necessary to remove a deck and re-install it!!


uh-huh.



> Here's the easy the repair:
> 
> 1# Locate wet areas with moisture meter and soundings. Cut the affected area's top skin off with a Dremel or air powered cut off wheel about 2.5 inches inside the non-skid this is where you'll feather it back in.
> 
> ...


I guess if you don't mind a boat with nonskid molded into the gelcoat in the cockpit, on the cabin roof and on the unrepaired sections of deck, but with obvious repaired now painted sections of deck, you could save some time this way.

If you have a boat without molded in nonskid, then yes, going in from the top will be the better solution.

Cheers,

Tim


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Go ahead and do it...*

Many of us will be waiting for the pictures. By the way Pros do repair wet decks on old boats! My yard is doing three boats this winter alone all from the top!

As I said in the above post, two people, an entire Pearson 30 deck, we removed the molded non-skid and re-painted the non-skid areas with less than 40 hours of time and the boat looked better than new!!! In fact today, ten years later, it still looks very, very good! I'll bet you could not build your deck support structure and get your deck even ready for removal in 40 hours but please do it I'll be waiting for the full report...

Here are just a few of the Maine yards that do deck core repair from the top.

Hinckley
Morris
Lyman Morse
Finest Kind
Black Horse
Cape Dory / Robinhood
Boothbay Region Boat Yard
Portland Yacht Services
Maine Yacht Center
Great island Boat Yard
John Williams Co.
Handy Boat
Brewers Yacht Yard
Strout's Point
etc. etc. etc.

In 30+ years of boating, including a stint working in a boat yard, here's the number of times I've seen a deck removed for core repair.

Zero !!

Good luck and please take some photos...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Halekai-

Unfortunately, some people aren't willing to listen to commonsense, having gotten an idea in their head that just they can't get rid of.


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## Catsailor07 (Nov 29, 2007)

Any reason not to turn the boat over and do it from the inside? I'm thinking cat but keel might cause problems.

John


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Gramp34 thanks for taking my side here but our BSU "bottom side up" way does seem to have a lot of steps, any one of which may have some small detail that is harder than expected. I can just see one hull-deck bolt in an impossible place that takes three hours to get out. I totally agree however that it looks bad if the cabin top and cockpit do not match the deck. I found this product to restore the non-skid which looks interesting: http://www.boatbuilding.net/article.pl?sid=06/01/24/181242

My original goal was to find a way to make the deck repair faster. halekai36's analysis is classic construction estimation. You break a big job into small pieces and estimate each piece than add them up. Then you add a reality factor which is usually 100% to 200%. I'm pretty convinced by halekai36's analysis that the BSU is unlikely to be faster. One advantage to the BSU for me personally is that all things being equal I would much rather be operating a saw and socket wrench than a sander. If you are really sure the take apart and put back together processes will not be deal breakers on your boat you would have the advantage of a mostly invisible repair.
For most boats it looks like the BSU would take a long time and be very risky.


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

I would think that "Prod don't touch wet decks" because the amount they would have to charge exceeds the value of the boat or the amount any owner willing to buy a saturated boat is willing to pay.

Boats with saturated decks are projects for people that love projects. If you have seen Tim Lackey's site you would probably have guessed that he restored his Triton because he loved the challenge and the end product. If he wanted to save money he would simply have bought a Triton in decent condition - far cheaper.

I was shown how to recore small sections by a boat builder. He does it from the top. He does this on either gelcoat or painted decks and usually stays within the non skid areas. After he is finished it is difficult to see that he even made a repair as it blends in well.

cut out the wet sections - bigger than the affected area. cloth and matt with epoxy or whatever resin you decide to use then core then more cloth/matt/resin to build up to level then add fairing compound & sand. Is as simple as a drywall job and just as fussy. Anyone who can use a sander properly can do a decent job.

If I had a boat with large sections to be done I would refinish the deck as well. 2 part paint is ideal but if I wanted to go sailing sooner and more cheaply I would consider a one part polyurethane for ease of application. I would also expect to be touching it up in 3 years.

Lets face it. A boat with a thoroughly saturated deck is a project boat. There are inexpensive ways to make a decent repair to get the boat sailing and then expensive ways to make a nicer looking job that takes longer. Set your targets and pick your method. If you want a good boat dont buy a project boat. If you want a project because you enjoy it then have at it!

Mike
Boatless in Nova Scotia


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

halekai36 said:


> Many of us will be waiting for the pictures. <snip>


No problem. I'll take lots of photos. Once the temperature gets a little above freezing, that is. 

Cheers,

Tim


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

davidpm said:


> Gramp34 thanks for taking my side here but our BSU "bottom side up" way does seem to have a lot of steps, any one of which may have some small detail that is harder than expected. <snip>
> For most boats it looks like the BSU would take a long time and be very risky.


No worries David.

I mentioned in a couple posts that the particular boat is going to be the deciding factor in what's the best route to follow. That'll always be the case.

Cheers,

Tim


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

I did a major recore project on my boat, from the inside. I wish I did it from the outside now. I ended up repainting the deck anyway and could have got the whole thing done much faster. I figured since the interior needed to be gutted and rebuilt, I would save the gelcoat on the outside. Dumb move. I could have cut it from the outside, and done a better job.

Why on earth would you repair the deck from the outside and not plan on painting the whole deck? Seems like a no brainer to me. There are lots of older boats out there with repainted / re-non skid decks that didn't necessarily have core repairs. How would that kill the resale?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

OK then what happens if I just leave it wet? I assume it will keep flexing until it cracks so badly that water finds its way inside in large amounts.
Is there a chance you could sail the boat for a few years in that condition and purposely just drive the boat into the ground. I know the “plastic classic” crowd would be appalled, but what if you were able to get a 30 footer for 10,000 that was worth 30,000 if it had good decks and you just sailed it for 5 years and killed the boat. Some would consider it evil but it would be cheap sailing. The stanchions might be falling off and you may kill yourself with some rare toxic mold but then again maybe not. 
Wait I just got an idea for a new thread, stay tuned.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

This is a really stupid idea IMHO... The deck is a structural part of the boat, and sailing with a bad deck knowingly is kind of like sailing with bad rigging knowingly.

The rigging generally attaches to the deck, and can put loads on it that the deck is supposed to spread out over a larger area. If the deck is soft and rotted on the inside, instead of having a very strong rigid deck, with i-beam like properties of a cored laminate, you have two relatively thin layers of fiberglass handling the load. The amount of fiberglass in a cored deck boat is far less than that of a similar sized boat with a solid fiberglass deck. The core provides the majority of the strength of the deck. Without a solid deck-the hull itself can flex beyond what is safe.

Think of the boat as a shoe box. The deck is the lid to the shoe box. The lid adds a lot of strength to the box and helps it keep its shape, even under loads that would crush the box without the lid by spreading those loads out. The same is true of a sailboat.

Finally, a very wet deck is going to affect the stability of the boat negatively. It's adding a lot of weight to the deck, and offsets the effectiveness of the ballast.

If you get caught out in a storm, there's a pretty fair chance that the deck might fail. You could lose the rigging and the mast. If you rolled the boat and the deck fails-the boat could down flood and sink very quickly... with you on it.

_Of course, if you choose to intentionally sail a boat with a delaminating deck, and it sinks, it might be considered Darwinian, a form of natural selection._



davidpm said:


> OK then what happens if I just leave it wet? I assume it will keep flexing until it cracks so badly that water finds its way inside in large amounts.
> Is there a chance you could sail the boat for a few years in that condition and purposely just drive the boat into the ground. I know the "plastic classic" crowd would be appalled, but what if you were able to get a 30 footer for 10,000 that was worth 30,000 if it had good decks and you just sailed it for 5 years and killed the boat. Some would consider it evil but it would be cheap sailing. The stanchions might be falling off and you may kill yourself with some rare toxic mold but then again maybe not.
> Wait I just got an idea for a new thread, stay tuned.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

_"The rigging generally attaches to the deck, and can put loads on it that the deck is supposed to spread out over a larger area. If the deck is soft and rotted on the inside, instead of having a very strong rigid deck, with i-beam like properties of a cored laminate, you have two relatively thin layers of fiberglass handling the load. The amount of fiberglass in a cored deck boat is far less than that of a similar sized boat with a solid fiberglass deck. The core provides the majority of the strength of the deck. Without a solid deck-the hull itself can flex beyond what is safe."_

I'm sure you know better than I but all boats I can remember seeing have the rigging connected to the hull in some way. Either straps on the hull, straps on a bulkhead connected to the hull, or on the newer designs a connection near the cabin to a heavy rod going at an angle through the cabin then to the hull. 
I agree that the core or more specifically the system composed of the core and two skins provides the strength. From a rigging point of view just what is going to fail? Maybe the sides of the boat will pinch in but even a loose cored deck should resist that a great deal. 
At some point in time it would get so bad as to not be strong enough to walk on without falling through (which would probably annoy the cook). But from a rigging point of view exactly how is a bad deck going to cause a rigging failure.
Now I'm not talking about blue-water knock down situations but normal coastal day sailing. 
I'm not defending bad maintenance but I've seen dozens of boats with deck problems from what looks like a little rot under one stanchion to major delamination. 
And yes it should be fixed. What with obvious problems such as mold disasters to more and more destroyed layers, falling through the deck etc. What I'm interested in is the not so obvious, at least to me, risks. If you think the rig is at risk I would like to know how.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, it connects to the hull, but often through the deck at some point. Imagine a shoe box... fill it a quarter of the way fulll with pennies and then try picking it up... what happens... Now, take the same shoe box and pennies and tape the box lid to the box along all four sides...and now pick it up... see the difference.

Also, if it is leaking enough into the the deck to delaminate it near the chainplates, you can be pretty sure that there's enough water that the bulkheads below the deck are probably rotting as well.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Of course if you have a boat with a rotting deck and can get it real cheap, you might be better off stripping off all the fittings, selling them on Ebay and buying a better boat with the proceeds.

I think it's called "bottom feeding"...


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

davidpm said:


> (snip) And yes it should be fixed. What with obvious problems such as mold disasters to more and more destroyed layers, falling through the deck etc. What I'm interested in is the not so obvious, at least to me, risks. If you think the rig is at risk I would like to know how.


I agree with your thoughts David. If the boat is some light weight daysailer with the rigging anchored to a rotten cored deck and no internal framing, then I could see things coming apart. But, on a boat like this you'd know there was a problem when you fell through the deck.

If we're talking about some kind of cruising boat then there will be substantial structure inside: bulkheads, stringers, furniture, floors, structural liner, etc.

As you've pointed out, chainplate loads go to the hull, not the deck. Part of their load wants to pull the sides of the hull together, but even with rotten side decks, there's still lots of structure underneath to support that load.

There are lots of sailboats out there with soft decks. If soft decks caused rig failure I'd expect we'd hear about some of them. I have never seen or heard of any. Maybe others have. I personally wouldn't be concerned daysailing in such a boat.

Cheers,

Tim


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

davidpm said:


> What I'm interested in is the not so obvious, at least to me, risks.


I dunno if this risk is obvious or not, but I don't think it was mentioned yet.

If the deck rots under cleats and winches they might part ways with the boat at inconvenient times.

I would guess the most common loss would be a foredeck cleat with the anchor line. Cockpit coamings are probably more heavily glassed in general than decks, and a winch wobbling around as you're cranking would be a good hint something is wrong. 

I've only seen one case of a boat with a winch pulled off, and it had been hit by a hurricane with a dock line on the winch. The deck core was fine -- a big chunk of the coaming was ripped off the boat with the winch. So this probably isn't a big failure mode.

Cheers,

Tim


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## odayrockaway (Jul 17, 2000)

How about this. I had a soft spot in my O'Day 27 starboard side under the portholes. I removed the portholes and sealed the channel between the headliner and the hull. Using a syringe (actually an empty cauk tube) applied West Epoxy (thickened). The next day it was pretty solid and hardened over the next couple to a point where it's preety solid. I know it's not the ideal solution but not bad and a lot less work. Regards


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

odayrockaway said:


> How about this. I had a soft spot in my O'Day 27 starboard side under the portholes. I removed the portholes and sealed the channel between the headliner and the hull. Using a syringe (actually an empty cauk tube) applied West Epoxy (thickened). The next day it was pretty solid and hardened over the next couple to a point where it's preety solid. I know it's not the ideal solution but not bad and a lot less work. Regards


Cool! were you able to dig out some rotton core around the edges of the portholes?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Gramp34 said:


> I dunno if this risk is obvious or not, but I don't think it was mentioned yet.
> 
> If the deck rots under cleats and winches they might part ways with the boat at inconvenient times.
> Tim


Very good point. Those parts are relativly easy to take off and possibly rebed with very large backing plates as long as you are looking for the problem.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

How can you tell if you have soft decks? Is it just by walking on them? Should they give at all? I don't see any flexing or feel the decks giving on my boat but there are major cracks around the cabin opening tracks. Inside the "liner" is splitting from the plywood. But it still feels stiff. Is it just a matter of time?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

thumping them with the handle of a screwdriver will often tell you where the deck is wet or delaminating. The sound changes when the deck laminate has a wet core or has separated.


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