# Escaping the Paradigm with $300,000...



## OpIvy (Apr 16, 2009)

I know there is lots of other posts that state if you had $1 Mil what would you do... Here is a new twist with a number that may be more realistic for some - $300,000 cash. This needs to include the purchase of the boat, outfitting, how many years you think you could make it last and any other budgeting you would do. To each there own on how they would spend it...

_My thoughts..._
*Boat* - First Tayana 42 CC then Cabo Rico 38 - $110,000 
*Outfit* - $30,000
*Yearly Budget* - $35,000 (2 Adults, 2 Kids on the hook mostly)
*Years on the Water* - 4 (If I spend less yearly I would go longer)
*Emergency Fund* - $20,000
*Location* - Start in the Caribbean and make my way over to the South Pacific but depends on boat location...


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## canadianseamonkey (Sep 4, 2006)

Great idea. What will your yearly budget be used for? It seems quite high to me unless you are using it to pay monthly payments ie: loans, mortgage, debt. If you're going to mostly be on the hook, I think you can cruise longer than 4 years. I know I would.

So are you going to do this?


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## OpIvy (Apr 16, 2009)

My thoughts are that the budget should include all expenses for the year (food, dock fees, fuel, maintenance/repairs, clothing, etc and for me- 4 people).

Right now I am just scheming and dreaming.. Unless I have a life changing event (i.e. get laid off) I will continue my current path forward and plan for the day I don't have to work anymore and can choose to cruise until I don't want to (vs. when the money runs out). I just thought I would post this tread to see what other people could do with $300,000. And if the worst (but most likely best) scenario happens put the plan into motion.

What would you do with $300,000.....


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## canadianseamonkey (Sep 4, 2006)

OpIvy said:


> My thoughts are that the budget should include all expenses for the year (food, dock fees, fuel, maintenance/repairs, clothing, etc and for me- 4 people).
> 
> Right now I am just scheming and dreaming.. Unless I have a life changing event (i.e. get laid off) I will continue my current path forward and plan for the day I don't have to work anymore and can choose to cruise until I don't want to (vs. when the money runs out). I just thought I would post this tread to see what other people could do with $300,000. And if the worst (but most likely best) scenario happens put the plan into motion.
> 
> What would you do with $300,000.....


Life changing events do happen...it happened to me and it could happen to you. Bottom line, with 300K you're good to go.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

300K?
Step one, invest that 300K in 90 day term deposits
Take 90 days to buy the boat, ugly but solid, with no brand loyalty or preference, just the best ugly bluewater boat I can find for 75K.
Split 50K into 10K parcels, and invest in 30 day, 60 day, 90 day, and 120 day term deposits, and keep 10 k for cash. that 10K cash is the phase one refit budget. as each 10k note is freed up, it should dovetail with the next refit phase. If not, roll the cash over for another 30 days. you ain't getting rich, but you ain't losing a dime, and you are not spending it, cuz you can't touch it. The remaining 175K invest in in a combo of stocks, bonds, 12 month GICs , etc.
Quit your job- I don't care who you are, but if you are on a tight budget, chances are your current hourly wage is a hell of a lot less than the $90-150/hr that the local yard is charging to do stuff on your boat that you could probably do yourself if you weren't working. The money you save on labour costs will cover your expenses, cuz after all, you got the 300K by selling your house, so you have no mortgage, no car payment, etc., cuz you paid all that stuff off, right? If you didn't, go back and rethink step 1 and step 2, cuz your plan is different than mine.
Besides I'd rather be working on my boat than actually working.
In 6 months you are ready to launch for ports unknown, with a nice shiny looking reliable well equipped safe old boat that you know inside and out, and enough cash to cruise indefinitely, if you are frugal.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Indefinately? On $200,000?? How?


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## OpIvy (Apr 16, 2009)

bljones.... What ROR are you planning on $175,000 to live off? Are you planning to do odd jobs to make a little extra on the side? What yearly budget are you going to require and for how many people? Sounds like you have put together a game plan...


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Okay, so maybe indefinitely is the wrong word. Figure a 5% rate of return on average, so 10K a year without touching the principal. If you are a retiree with pension income it is doable. If you are not a retiree, then figure that you will have to dip into your principal. Which means you could only cruise for 10 years or so before you have to get a job.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

You need to allow for inflation. right now it's low but it's doubtful it will stay low for the next 10 years. So expect an average of at least 3% inflation over 10 years. If you expect to spend only $15,000 per year at today's prices, you'd need to get 8% on $300,000 to keep that going indefinately.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

The approach we're using is quite similar to what bljones proposes, and we are cruising on it right now. In our case we spent $50K for a sound hull with a layout we liked, and $85 to put in exactly the systems we wanted. That included new sails ($5K), new standing rigging (another $5), new Yanmar ($20), new heater, new refrig, new wiring, new dink and outboard, solar panels. Based on our pensions & savings, we budgeted $2000/month for cruising: $500/month for maintenance, $150/month for boat insurance, $150/month for communications, $400/month for food; in our case that left $700/month for discretionary & unforseen crises. Some months there wasn't much discretion -- motoring every day down the ICW, fuel cost over $400 one month. But since we arrived here, we have spent less than $50 for fuel for the last 2 months. The OPs $300K would last about 6 or 7 years on our budget without working at all, and they could stretch it by cutting back on the "discretionary" so escaping the paradigm is certainly do-able. Hope this helps. -e.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

For perspective, 300k$us at 1.5% divided by 365 is about 12.33$us/day in interest income (4.5k$us/year). That may seem like nothing to some people, but compare that to the following chart ...










How to use that chart, the right most bar is the percentage of the world's population that lives under the poverty line if the poverty line is set at 10$us/day. Yep, 80% of the people in the world live on 10$us/day or less.

How do they do it ?

Experiment - go to the grocery store with 10$us in your pocket and go shopping. No, skip over the potato chips, hamburger, and ben and jerry's ice cream and go to the aisle where beans and rice are sold. Now spend your 10$us buying as much dried beans and rice as you can buy, better get a shopping cart, it is going to be heavy! Don't like beans and rice ? Go to the refrigerated section and see how many chicken eggs you can buy for 10$us, again, you're going to need that cart! Oh, or how about sugar, go to the baking aisle and see how far 10$us gets you with sugar, more sugar than you and your family are going to eat in a month and then some. Don't like any of that ? Head over to the produce section with your cart and start piling bags of potatoes in until you hit the 10$us mark, hope you like potatoes, because you just bought a few weeks worth! 

One 50$us sushi dinner in the United States can feed a family for a month if it is spent well.

Most people in this country just have no concept of how well off they are.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Our family's health insurance policy costs over $1200/month.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> Our family's health insurance policy costs over $1200/month.


is that a deluxe policy?

I've done some shopping at Health Insurance - Affordable Health Insurance Quotes, Individual Health Insurance and have seen some decent policies for under $500/mo for 2 people over 50 yo. They have some under $300 but they seem hardly worth it.


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## OpIvy (Apr 16, 2009)

wind_magic... I agree with you that the western society is very privileged. Having traveled to many remote places of this world, with work, I have seen things make me fully aware. 

This thread however was started with the cruising strategy in mind. I don't think anyone wants to argue world hunger or how many people under the poverty line are full time cruisers. I understand your point of make what money you have work. What yearly budget are you using and how are you doing it? 

If you had $300,000 what would you do.... Boat, budgetary items, and capable length of time.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

OpIvy said:


> This thread however was started with the cruising strategy in mind. I don't think anyone wants to argue world hunger or how many people under the poverty line are full time cruisers. I understand your point of make what money you have work.


No of course my intention wasn't to start a discussion about world poverty, in fact, the World Bank doesn't even use 10$us/day as a poverty line, they only put that on the chart because that is similar to the U.S. poverty line, that's why there is that big jump from 2.5$us/day to 10$us/day. I only wrote that post to remind us all (me included) that money can go pretty far in some people's hands, that 80% living on 10$us/day, not all of them are "poor", most get along just fine on that amount of money, have homes, raise kids, etc, live happy lives.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

eryka said:


> and $85 to put in exactly the systems we wanted. That included new sails ($5K), new standing rigging (another $5), new Yanmar ($20), new heater, new refrig, new wiring, new dink and outboard, solar panels.


That is very interesting eryka
Would you mind expanding that list a little and share how the 85k got split up.
You have 135 into your boat but I suspect it is in better shape that a new boat. What do you figure a new boat similarly equipped would cost? I'm guessing 290, am I close. How many months did the refit take and how much did you do yourself?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Crap, I just invested $328,982 into the Paradigm. I'm going the wrong way!

What an idiot....


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## OpIvy (Apr 16, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Crap, I just invested $328,982 into the Paradigm. I'm going the wrong way!
> 
> What an idiot....


Smackdaddy - I guess I should have elaborated on what paradigm I was trying to escape... Stuck in the 9-5 working like an indentured servant.

I know I am not the first dreamer and like most timing will determine the boat. If you only had $300,000 for everything what would you do?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm joking Op (kind of my schtick). Actually, in my case my indentured servitude is pretty self-serving.

Even so, I think I'll go with bl's or eryka's plans. The key is to get out there and soak it up.

Three sheets to the wind.

Cheers dude.


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## JimHawkins (Aug 25, 2006)

wind_magic said:


>


Holy smokes, Batman. Half the world lives on less than $1000/yr.
Using Wind's very conservative 1.5%/yr, you need just need $66,000 principal to be above the median.


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## mdbee (May 2, 2007)

*Insurance - Bait and switch*

I have been reading about those insurance prices you see on the Internet.

It seems a lot of them will give you a low price but after they sign you up and take all of your info, the policy prices jump - a lot. If you don't want it, they will refund the premium that you already paid. The other trick, they start bumping the price significantly every year.



xort said:


> is that a deluxe policy?
> 
> I've done some shopping at Health Insurance - Affordable Health Insurance Quotes, Individual Health Insurance and have seen some decent policies for under $500/mo for 2 people over 50 yo. They have some under $300 but they seem hardly worth it.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

xort said:


> is that a deluxe policy?
> 
> I've done some shopping at Health Insurance - Affordable Health Insurance Quotes, Individual Health Insurance and have seen some decent policies for under $500/mo for 2 people over 50 yo. They have some under $300 but they seem hardly worth it.


No, not a premium policy by any means, it's a pretty standard BCBS family health insurance policy. Our employer pays about 2/3 of that premium each month, we pay the remaining. But if we went off on a sailing sabbatical with our family, we'd have to pay the entire amount to continue it.

There are probably other policies that are less expensive, but I'd have to study the coverage. And I wouldn't want to be any LESS insured than we are now, with a boatload of kids. As it is, on top of the premiums, we have another $4-5K medical expenses annually (deductibles, co-pays, prescriptions, dental, orthodontics, opthalmology (sp?), etc). All pretty standard stuff.

So when I see some of these monthly budget numbers, while certainly helpful in some respects, I'm somewhat incredulous as to whether they are very applicable to an _american_** family with a bunch of kids.

Medical is just one small part of that equation, too. The boat needs to be bigger (higher initial costs, higher refit costs, higher maintenance costs, insurance, etc etc), the food and clothing budgets are much larger, cost of distant learning/education, higher family travel and entertainment costs, etc etc.

Anyway, interesting discussion.

** Families from countries with socialized medicine will have very different calculus.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

davidpm said:


> That is very interesting eryka
> Would you mind expanding that list a little and share how the 85k got split up.
> You have 135 into your boat but I suspect it is in better shape that a new boat. What do you figure a new boat similarly equipped would cost? I'm guessing 290, am I close. How many months did the refit take and how much did you do yourself?


David, it'll take me a few minutes to look up all the costs so let me get back to you in a bit on that. For the rest, your guess of $290 tracks well with our survey, which said that this boat was one of the best examples of its type that the surveyor had seen. One very important caveat with an older boat like this: if it should be totalled, insurance won't pay the full replacement cost (our $135) because there are other similar hulls on the market for the $50 we paid ... we have an agreed value policy that partly, but does not completely, acknowledge the cost of the upgrades.

The refit took about 2 years and we did a lot of it ourselves so we'd know every inch. More later.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Here's 3 policies I found on ehealthinsurance...

We're 2 mid 50's non smokers.

Aetna PPO, $3000 deductable, 0 coinsurance, $521/mo

United Health Network, $2500 deductable, 0 coinsurance, $445/mo

Celtic PPO, $5000 deductable, 0 coinsurance, Office visit $15, $461/mo


I then talked to a recommended local insurance broker. He has similar rates for me as well. 
But, what if I get dinged for health issues? Here in Michigan, we have state regulated BCBS and they are required to carry me at decent rates. The broker estimated that we would face a $500/mo rate for a $5000 deductable with 80% coverage after that. The broker also mentioned that Michigan is one of the lower cost states for health insurance. We're reconsidering Florida as a cruisers residence as that state has relatively high health insur rates.


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## OpIvy (Apr 16, 2009)

eryka said:


> David, it'll take me a few minutes to look up all the costs so let me get back to you in a bit on that. For the rest, your guess of $290 tracks well with our survey, which said that this boat was one of the best examples of its type that the surveyor had seen. One very important caveat with an older boat like this: if it should be totalled, insurance won't pay the full replacement cost (our $135) because there are other similar hulls on the market for the $50 we paid ... we have an agreed value policy that partly, but does not completely, acknowledge the cost of the upgrades.
> 
> The refit took about 2 years and we did a lot of it ourselves so we'd know every inch. More later.


Eryka... I too would be interested in your boat and any additional details you would be willing to share.. I like the idea of doing to reno on a older boat.


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## nissantwa (Sep 15, 2009)

*On cruising under $300,000*

This question reminds me of a short essay by Sterling Hayden, 1916-1986 , actor and author of 'Voyage', a fine square rigger yarn. To quote: "To be truly challenging, a voyage, like life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at sea---"cruising" it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about. 'I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but I can't afford it.' What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of security. And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine--and before we know it our lives are gone. What does a man need, really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in, and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all--in the material sense. And we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention from the sheer idiocy of the charade. The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb is sealed. Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life? "


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Nice Nissantwa.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

nissantwa said:


> This question reminds me of a short essay by Sterling Hayden, 1916-1986 , actor and author of 'Voyage', a fine square rigger yarn. To quote: "To be truly challenging, a voyage, like life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at sea---"cruising" it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about. 'I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but I can't afford it.' What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of security. And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine--and before we know it our lives are gone. What does a man need, really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in, and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all--in the material sense. And we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention from the sheer idiocy of the charade. The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb is sealed. Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life? "


+300,000


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## PCP777 (Apr 7, 2009)

Just marking my spot, interesting thread.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

eryka said:


> David, it'll take me a few minutes to look up all the costs so let me get back to you in a bit on that.


That would be great eryka if you don't mind the accounting, I'm sure it will benefit many people. The insurance issue is an important tip too.
Did you mention your boat, size, make age. I missed it.


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## OpIvy (Apr 16, 2009)

nissantwa said:


> What does a man need, really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in, and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment.


Nissantwa... Love the quote and couldn't agree more... However in my mind I need at least 6'6" to lie down in being 6'4". So what's your boat and budget for $300,000 and how long will you be gone?


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## tager (Nov 21, 2008)

If I had $300,000 I would be able to cruise for a few years. If you only take home 2% annually, that is still $6000. I have a Haida 26, and $6000 goes a long way on a Haida 26. Heck, a repower is $2000 ! New mainsail $2000. Genoa from a Catalina 25 would work. These are cheap. Food for a year: $4000. 

So maybe my fortune would slowly dwindle at 2%... if I didn't work at all, and kept her in top nick.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> Our family's health insurance policy costs over $1200/month.


That's 14400$us/year, assuming that is post tax at about a quarter, then that is about 18k$us net income. The mean personal income in the United States is only 25k$us, 18k$us is 72% of what the statistically mean individual over 18 years old in American makes every year. That's quite an offering to the altar of Asclepius!


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## nissantwa (Sep 15, 2009)

*Cruising for $300,000*

I have no statistics to support my statement but I suspect the majority of cruisers spend less than $300,000. For that kind of money I could live on a cruise ship for 10 years. (about $700 a week) I could charter a boat for 3 years. I could buy 10 Cal 29's for $120,000 and throw them away as they break. In the 60's I hitch hiked from San Diego to Mexico city and back. I left with $80 and returned a month later with $20. I cruise the same way. A good piece of classic plastic for $15,000 or less. Cal, Ericson, Columbia, C&C, Contessa, etc. 30 feet or smaller. Outfitting would be in the hundreds, not thousands of $. No refrigeration, no power water pumps, no radar, no SSB. GPS & a sextant, charts, food & fuel. One of my biggest expenses would be cruising permits and port fees. I could pay for the boat and be gone for months for under 20k. I could go the Joshua Slocum route for half that. The rest of the 300k could go to purchase rental property to provide income. I admire those who cruise their pristine projects. I've sailed on a few. Drove an 86' Sparkman Stevens ketch from San Diego to Hawaii. 3 storms, 11 no sun days, 15kts with spinnaker and 24kts surfing the 30' swells. Spent 40 thousand in Hawaii on sail and gear repairs. The boat left for Guam with broken trash compactor, generator fried by saltwater intrusion when flapper exhaust valve failed. Bilge pump in-op due to pin-hole leaks allowing air through the pipes. (we pumped every few hours) because water was getting down through the chain locker hatch, + block ice because the frige crapped out.. Washer dryer inop. etc. etc. $$$$ Guam was another $10,000 for fuel and repairs, by then the crew was using a coleman camping stove to cook with and a honda generator strapped to the deck. When this 2 year old yacht was finally delivered to Singapore, the owner spent another half million removing the aft steering wheel to install a hot tub. Hence, my classic plastic under 15k production boat leanings. Just my 2 cents concerning $300,000, nuff said.


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## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

OpIvy said:


> ..... This needs to include the purchase of the boat, outfitting, how many years you think you could make it last and any other budgeting you would do. To each there own on how they would spend it...
> 
> _My thoughts..._
> *Boat* - First Tayana 42 CC then Cabo Rico 38 - $110,000
> ...


You are asking a question that only you can really answer.

Look at the responses, all over the map and each thinks they are correct and for them they are. I'll give you my correct responses to some of the issues.

The boat: Try to get the boat for $110K complete. Start with a $50K to $75K boat, smaller is better. Sail it for a couple of years first to get it set up the way you would like. It will take much longer to do this part than you think so plan 2yrs, might take more depending on time you can put to it.

You might be able to gain freedom from slavery and work on the boat but then it might feel like you are a slave to the boat and not living the dream. In that case sail a bit and work a bit. Takes longer but better than packing it in early.

Annual budget: Sounds good but things like insurance seem really crazy expensive when it means you are spending the end of the trip for such purchases. Besides insurance has always been a mugs game. As for health insurance, we couldn't get any that would cover much, and even the best had very low limits, like $20K. Better to set aside money for that and end the dream early if something happens, unless you can get insurance you believe in and think is cheap.

Emergency fund is everything left, no need to set anything aside for that.

We started out living in poverty as some have suggested. Having actually been poor for me it is hell, a hell I quickly remembered. Better to live rich and die young unless of course you have always been comfortable in which case pretending to be poor can be fun. Like camping. Some like camping, I call it living on the street. Yeah I can do it by why in God would I chose to. Just be comfortable and let the cost eat into the end of the trip.

Keep in mind that getting back to making money, unless you have things like pensions or a government that will help, will cost alot of money. You can't run things down to zero, not even close. Do not plan or count on selling the boat at the end. You may not have it, and if you do it will not be worth anything near what you think it is.

I would suggest planning for at least a year of high expenses at the end to transition back to land/work.

And then of course your mileage will vary. Seems to me that much of what I've suggested would not apply to you so like most of the posts in this thread just ignore most of it and pick what you want from it.


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## nailbunnySPU (Apr 8, 2009)

nissantwa said:


> I could buy 10 Cal 29's for $120,000 and throw them away as they break.


:laugher this brought me the LOL


nissantwa said:


> Drove an 86' Sparkman Stevens ketch from San Diego to Hawaii. 3 storms, 11 no sun days, 15kts with spinnaker and 24kts surfing the 30' swells. Spent 40 thousand in Hawaii on sail and gear repairs. The boat left for Guam with broken trash compactor, generator fried by saltwater intrusion when flapper exhaust valve failed. Bilge pump in-op due to pin-hole leaks allowing air through the pipes. (we pumped every few hours) because water was getting down through the chain locker hatch, + block ice because the frige crapped out.. Washer dryer inop. etc. etc. $$$$ Guam was another $10,000 for fuel and repairs, by then the crew was using a coleman camping stove to cook with and a honda generator strapped to the deck. When this 2 year old yacht was finally delivered to Singapore, the owner spent another half million removing the aft steering wheel to install a hot tub. Hence, my classic plastic under 15k production boat leanings.


 Mo' money Mo' problems! Seems the trick is to pretend you don't have $300,000, may be the decision to get a $50-100k boat may not be so automatic.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

nissantwa said:


> I have no statistics to support my statement but I suspect the majority of cruisers spend less than $300,000. For that kind of money I could live on a cruise ship for 10 years. (about $700 a week) I could charter a boat for 3 years. I could buy 10 Cal 29's for $120,000 and throw them away as they break. In the 60's I hitch hiked from San Diego to Mexico city and back. I left with $80 and returned a month later with $20. I cruise the same way. A good piece of classic plastic for $15,000 or less. Cal, Ericson, Columbia, C&C, Contessa, etc. 30 feet or smaller. Outfitting would be in the hundreds, not thousands of $. No refrigeration, no power water pumps, no radar, no SSB. GPS & a sextant, charts, food & fuel. One of my biggest expenses would be cruising permits and port fees. I could pay for the boat and be gone for months for under 20k. I could go the Joshua Slocum route for half that. The rest of the 300k could go to purchase rental property to provide income. I admire those who cruise their pristine projects. I've sailed on a few. Drove an 86' Sparkman Stevens ketch from San Diego to Hawaii. 3 storms, 11 no sun days, 15kts with spinnaker and 24kts surfing the 30' swells. Spent 40 thousand in Hawaii on sail and gear repairs. The boat left for Guam with broken trash compactor, generator fried by saltwater intrusion when flapper exhaust valve failed. Bilge pump in-op due to pin-hole leaks allowing air through the pipes. (we pumped every few hours) because water was getting down through the chain locker hatch, + block ice because the frige crapped out.. Washer dryer inop. etc. etc. $$$$ Guam was another $10,000 for fuel and repairs, by then the crew was using a coleman camping stove to cook with and a honda generator strapped to the deck. When this 2 year old yacht was finally delivered to Singapore, the owner spent another half million removing the aft steering wheel to install a hot tub. Hence, my classic plastic under 15k production boat leanings. Just my 2 cents concerning $300,000, nuff said.


THAT is a fine post.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

nissantwa said:


> A good piece of classic plastic for $15,000 or less. Cal, Ericson, Columbia, C&C, Contessa, etc. 30 feet or smaller. Outfitting would be in the hundreds, not thousands of $. No refrigeration, no power water pumps, no radar, no SSB.


A good piece of classic plastic will almost certainly need some sails for cruising. If you are lucky and the PO just bought two sails you still need more that two for cruising.
Ground tackle will likely be marginal for a cruising boat.
Standing rigging will be 20 years old and need replacing.
Tanks, at least some of them will be original, you can hope the holding take holds.
The engine will likely be 30 years old, again a major gamble.

I'm assuming you are talking about coastal cruising because the boats you mentioned are not designed for oceans.

So run the numbers for me and pick some 15k boat you have seen for sale lately and itemize the items above that you would like to upgrade before committing your life to the boat.

The other hard reality is that boat repairs are inherently difficult.
If you live on the boat and happen to be in a port even if it's only a 100 miles away from your connections, tool shed and friends, they are that much harder.
That's why when someone starts a project like this they immediately run into the "while I have it open syndrome". And even if you had no intension's of doing so you end up refitting the whole boat.

I do agree with one premise. If you go 30' instead of 40' you can save half the money. 
You will just not have the room for so much stuff.
No life raft
No water maker
No generator
No air conditioner
I'm thinking radar would be hard to turn down.
Self steering is mandatory, even Pardee has that.

I think the person that spend 50 for the boat and added 80 for upgrades probably ended up with a pretty sweet boat. I'm anxious to hear how the numbers broke out. That way some of us dreamers could decide what they would be willing to live without.

I can pretty much assure you that if you buy a 15k classic you will not be cruising for long with a fixup budget of hundreds unless you get really lucky with the buy.

In fact it would be fun to calculate just the spare parts budget for a boat completely fitted out. I'll bet that alone would be in the thousands.


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## OpIvy (Apr 16, 2009)

Boats are like cars our houses... Everyone has an opinion about what they need or could afford... For us a family of four might require a bigger boat than a single. In my mind you need to keep the crew happy or you'll have a mutiny on your hand.

That's why I think it is interesting to see what everyone would do with $300,000. Some feel that is a ton of money for cruising some think that isn't enough for even the boat.

What would you do with $300,000???


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

*Budget for turning an old hull into a cruising boat*



davidpm said:


> I think the person that spend 50 for the boat and added 80 for upgrades probably ended up with a pretty sweet boat. I'm anxious to hear how the numbers broke out. That way some of us dreamers could decide what they would be willing to live without.


Thanx Davidpm, we think the boat is "pretty sweet" now ourselves  Here's how our numbers broke out:

We replaced "everything." Everything we put in was new, mostly purchased at Annapolis Boat Show sale prices. The refit took about 2 years and we - mostly Dan - did everything ourselves except the engine, heater, and rerigging installations (for insurance/warranty reasons). The first priority was things that make the boat safer or sail faster, then, everything else (all prices in boat bucks, a.k.a, thousands of dollars)

Yanmar engine 20
Frigoboat keel cooled refrig/freezer 2
Lofrans windlass & remote switch 3
Autohelm under deck mount autopilot 5
Webasto diesel heater 2.5
replace all standing rigging 5
arch for solar panels with integral cockpit rail 5
Brig 10' inflatable dinghy with 9.8 hp outboard 5
Cruisair reverse cycle air conditioner/heater 2.5
North Sails new mainsail & genoa 5
Force 10 stove/oven 1.5
replace fuel tanks 2
100' chain, 200' rope and Rocna 44 anchor 1.5

Those bigger ticket items account for $60K of our refit budget. The rest of it (each item $1000 or less) went for: solar panels, bilge pump & 4000 gph "Hail Mary" pump, upholstery/paint/varnish/formica, marine-grade wire, LED lighting, cockpit cushions, trifold swim ladder, bimini, stereo, sinks and faucets, Seagull water filter, 4 AGM batteries, Xantrex Link 20, 2 Garhaur 6-part purchases for dinghy lift, handheld Garmin chartplotter, and (*winks at CruisingDad*) a BBQ.

4 months into our cruise, there is not one single thing I'd change! The solar panels make all of our power needs on sunny days; we generally run the engine about 45 minutes every 4 days to make up the difference due to occaisional cloudiness. We chose not to use a generator (too noisy) and instead use extremely energy-efficient systems, like LED lights and the keel-cooled fridge/freezer, so that we could maintain ourselves with solar. We have no watermaker, but with a 100-gal water tank for 2 people, we can go 3-4 weeks before refilling. We also chose not to install radar because our chosen cruising grounds, US southeast & Bahamas, rarely have fog and we rarely run at night, therefore less need. Disclaimer: these are our solutions, for the way we like to live, I'm not assuming they'd be right for everyone.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Eryka—

You need one more solar panel...  Then you could leave the diesel off...


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Eryka-
> 
> You need one more solar panel...  Then you could leave the diesel off...


Nope. Just more sunshine. As the days get longer, it'll work out even better as we make more power. OTOH, as the days get longer the water gets warmer, so we need more refrig, so that uses more power ...


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

eryka said:


> Thanx Davidpm, we think the boat is "pretty sweet" now ourselves  Here's how our numbers broke out:


Thanks Eryka, what a great resource for all the dreamers.
Did you ever mention the model boat you ended up with?
Any guesses as to how much you guys saved by doing so much yourself?
Let me guess: I figured yards usually charge in the neighborhood of 100 an hour so I figure maybe a years work 40x50x100 = 200,000 so even if I am double and it would have been only 100,000 the lesson is that classic plastic with refit can save half the cost of new if you do the work yourself but would cost at least double from new if you had the yard do it.
Of course the advantage you have, and it is a huge advantage, is that you know a great deal about every system.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

davidpm said:


> Any guesses as to how much you guys saved by doing so much yourself?
> Let me guess: I figured yards usually charge in the neighborhood of 100 an hour so I figure maybe a years work 40x50x100 = 200,000 so even if I am double and it would have been only 100,000 the lesson is that classic plastic with refit can save half the cost of new if you do the work yourself but would cost at least double from new if you had the yard do it.
> Of course the advantage you have, and it is a huge advantage, is that you know a great deal about every system.


Then again, hiring tradespeople to do the work, they could do these things much faster than we could. They have specialized tools we wouldn't buy for just one job, and there was an awful lot of learning time we spent on each system. For example, we spent days getting the Xantrex in and properly wired, I'm sure someone who routinely (and only) worked on boat wiring could have done it in just a few hours.

although we don't know how much we saved, The bottom line is that it was a moot point - we couldn't have been able to afford to do it at all if we had to pay someone to install, it took 100% of the available money to buy the systems. If we didnt' have the technical skills, we would have cruised on a smaller, older, or less comfortable boat; or worked longer and delayed going.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

Davidpm, an additional thought is that Dan wasn't working on the refit fulltime, more like 1/2 time and doing his Navy Sailing thing the other 1/2. So your equation should be 20x50x100 ...


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## j34035 (Nov 10, 2006)

Eryka,
My retired co-worker called me yesterday to chat a bit. He and his wife are cruising a Defever 49 named "Trust Me". He told me as of yesterday, they were in Staniel Cay for a few days. If you see his boat, give him a shout and tell him "Sparkie" says hello. They are good guys and this is their first cruise. They are living the dream (as it sounds like you are!). I checked your link, the sharks are cool............
DD


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd point out that installing the systems yourself and knowing them intimately may well save you a lot of money and aggravation in the long run... also, as Alvah Simon wrote about in his book, North to the Night, it might even save your life...



eryka said:


> Then again, hiring tradespeople to do the work, they could do these things much faster than we could. They have specialized tools we wouldn't buy for just one job, and there was an awful lot of learning time we spent on each system. For example, we spent days getting the Xantrex in and properly wired, I'm sure someone who routinely (and only) worked on boat wiring could have done it in just a few hours.
> 
> although we don't know how much we saved, The bottom line is that it was a moot point - we couldn't have been able to afford to do it at all if we had to pay someone to install, it took 100% of the available money to buy the systems. If we didnt' have the technical skills, we would have cruised on a smaller, older, or less comfortable boat; or worked longer and delayed going.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

eryka said:


> Then again, hiring tradespeople to do the work, they could do these things much faster than we could.


One would hope.
What kind of boat do you have.
Make, size, age?


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

j34035 said:


> Eryka,
> My retired co-worker called me yesterday to chat a bit. He and his wife are cruising a Defever 49 named "Trust Me". He told me as of yesterday, they were in Staniel Cay for a few days. If you see his boat, give him a shout and tell him "Sparkie" says hello. They are good guys and this is their first cruise. They are living the dream (as it sounds like you are!). I checked your link, the sharks are cool............
> DD


I DID see that boat a couple of days ago ... will definitely look for them! Right now we're boat-bound, rain and wind.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

davidpm said:


> What kind of boat do you have.
> Make, size, age?


30-year-old CSY 33. Love it! Great, sturdy, comfy-but-slow coastal cruiser.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

eryka said:


> 30-year-old CSY 33. Love it! Great, sturdy, comfy-but-slow coastal cruiser.


Thanks Eryka,
Would you mind if I started a thread where I re-posted some of the stuff from this thread and did an on-line interview.

We get at least one dreamer a month with about 5 posts telling us how they are going to buy a 15,000 dollar boat, fix it up for $500 and sail the world. Or worse build their own boat over the winter, launch in the spring and save a tone of money.
Since SailNet is partly about education it would be great to have a thread to refer people to that demonstrates a realistic process.

You and your husband have put a huge amount of thinking, shopping, research, planning and design which seldom gets documented to say nothing about the obvious labor and money investment.
You should be very proud of your success.

If you are game I'll ask the questions.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

David—

I'd point out that some people can indeed get a boat for $15,000 and fix it up and sail...but the requirements they are going to have are going to be very different from what Eryka and her husband have. For instance, chances are likely that they are a good deal younger, with fewer financial resources and lower standards of what living conditions they'll put up with to achieve their goals.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> David-
> 
> I'd point out that some people can indeed get a boat for $15,000 and fix it up and sail...but the requirements they are going to have are going to be very different from what Eryka and her husband have. For instance, chances are likely that they are a good deal younger, with fewer financial resources and lower standards of what living conditions they'll put up with to achieve their goals.


Actually I've done it for that exact number (15) and didn't even worry about the fix up part so I know exactly what you mean.
However I was always worried about the engine, the water did not work, none of the electronics worked, the rigging was original, the steering failed and there was much, much more wrong. It did sail however and that was the point.
Of course I was not moving aboard with my wife and promising a few years of safe, fun sailing in new and exotic ports either.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> David-
> 
> I'd point out that some people can indeed get a boat for $15,000 and fix it up and sail...but the requirements they are going to have are going to be very different from what Eryka and her husband have. For instance, chances are likely that they are a good deal younger, with fewer financial resources and lower standards of what living conditions they'll put up with to achieve their goals.


S'dog is right about that! We spent a lot of time on our $10K Ericson 27. After a while I got tired of no hot water, a Coleman stove to cook the canned food (no refrig so canned food was all we had), hand-steering everywhere ... Wouldn't it be dreadful to give up on the cuirsing dream not because you ran out of money or health, but because you got burned out on camping out?

When we were in St Augustine, the Coast Guard towed in a boat with a couple of dreamers. Their old sails were shredded, and they couldn't start their old engine. THEY DIDN'T EVEN HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO BUY CURRENT CHARTS!!!! Sigh. Your and my tax dollars went to thwarting Darwin ...


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

davidpm said:


> Thanks Eryka,
> Would you mind if I started a thread where I re-posted some of the stuff from this thread and did an on-line interview.
> 
> We get at least one dreamer a month with about 5 posts telling us how they are going to buy a 15,000 dollar boat, fix it up for $500 and sail the world. Or worse build their own boat over the winter, launch in the spring and save a tone of money.
> ...


David, feel free to do what you want with anything I've offered. If you have more questions, lets do it by email (my email is just my screen name @att.net). I have limited internet here in Paradise  I'd encourage you to get more opinions than just mine, of course, "fair and balanced" and all that yada yada. We're off to Eleuthera tomorrow so if you don't hear back from me after today you'll know why ...


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

j34035 said:


> Eryka,
> My retired co-worker called me yesterday to chat a bit. He and his wife are cruising a Defever 49 named "Trust Me". He told me as of yesterday, they were in Staniel Cay for a few days. If you see his boat, give him a shout and tell him "Sparkie" says hello. They are good guys and this is their first cruise. They are living the dream (as it sounds like you are!). I checked your link, the sharks are cool............
> DD


Doug, sorry, the other half of my reply was lost in cyberland (internet is sometimes quirky here in Paradise). Thanx for reading the blog. The sharks were absolutely fascinating in their economy of movement. Their skin felt like pebbled leather, and I learned that these nurse sharks have - according to a Bahamian fisherman - only "tiny little teeths" and they suck things (like fingers!) in more than bite. They're not very aggressive, either, so you see I'm not quite as brave as it looks in the photo.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

wind_magic said:


> That's 14400$us/year, assuming that is post tax at about a quarter, then that is about 18k$us net income. The mean personal income in the United States is only 25k$us, 18k$us is 72% of what the statistically mean individual over 18 years old in American makes every year. That's quite an offering to the altar of Asclepius!


Windy,

I agree, especially when you add in the out-of-pockets we also incur. BCBS is making out quite well (touch wood).

On the other hand, to be fair, per capita (for our family of 5) it's much less than it appears in the aggregate. More like $4-4.5K per person/year.


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## random42 (Apr 24, 2009)

Some good ideas here, but this one caught my eye...



eryka said:


> $400/month for food;


I'm pretty sure my wife spends more than that per week - just on fresh produce etc


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## elkscout (Feb 12, 2010)

*Wow!*



eryka said:


> Thanx Davidpm, we think the boat is "pretty sweet" now ourselves  Here's how our numbers broke out:
> 
> (all prices in boat bucks, a.k.a, thousands of dollars)
> 
> Yanmar engine 20....


This has been a very informative thread. Eryka mentioned budgeting for $500/mo. for maintenance. I'm hoping and wondering with pratically everything replaced, how much of that maintenance budget are you saving?

The $20,000 question is what kind of engine did you guys purchase? Is it silver plated? I realize marine engines go for a premium- i.e. the first website searched showed $7500 for a rebuilt 75hp Yanmar 4 cyl turbo diesel. Even if 10 to 12K for spent towards new one, *that would dictate 8 to 10K for installation.* As a professional mechanic, sounds like I'm working in the wrong industry. Of course, all that matters is that you have peace of mind.

This thread reminds me of another family I read about who circumnavigated the world, and as I recollect, they claimed to have spent approx.* 90% *of their time doing maintenance/repairs. That is totally asinine. I hope it was an extreme exaggeration. If not, I will not be taking up any bluewater or coastal cruising.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

elkscout,

$20K for a new, 75 hp marinized diesel engine (presumably with transmission), installed, would not be far fetched. That figure might also include some of the "running gear" (e.g. shaft, cutless bearing, dripless shaft seal, etc), which most folks would go ahead and swap if they were going to the effort of replacing engine.

Installation labor can be pretty steep compared to autos/trucks. Access is often very tricky and requires some choreographing. Have a look at this thread to get an idea: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/61936-buyer-beware.html

When paying someone else to perform the installation, it rarely makes sense to "economize" on a re-built engine because the cost of labor can be the larger portion of overall cost. Given the investment in labor, it usually makes more sense to swap for a new engine.

If you're a DIY, of course the costs are very different.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

MMmmm... Eryka is trying to fool you guys. She did not include her new nesting pots or grill in her budget to you. I know for a fact they are there!!!

Sneakkkyyy...

Brian

PS Hope you are doing well! Looking for my next update! Come see us!!!


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## OpIvy (Apr 16, 2009)

elkscout said:


> This thread reminds me of another family I read about who circumnavigated the world, and as I recollect, they claimed to have spent approx.* 90% *of their time doing maintenance/repairs. That is totally asinine. I hope it was an extreme exaggeration. If not, I will not be taking up any bluewater or coastal cruising.


If this was the case then they weren't doing too much sailing.... Like any other vehicle a boat requires maintenance. Personally, if I was a full time cruiser I would strive for as much preventative maintenance as possible and strive for it to be both planned and budgeted. It will cost more but will give me peace of mind which is important. That's not to say that you shouldn't be ready or not expect emergency work but it should be a much smaller percentage of work. If you have a solid boat that is correctly outfitted and a good maintenance schedule you should be able enjoy the lifestyle.

This being said on I can think back to previous boats that I didn't do such a good job on maintenance...  But I was willing to absorb the cost and down time and was only using it for inland day sailing.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Lets assume it takes 1 year to SAIL around the world. If they spend 90% of their total time doing repairs INSTEAD of sailing, then the total time to circumnav woud be 10 years; 1 year of sailing and 9 years of repairing.
I suspect there is a slight exageration in there somewhere.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Interesting topic. I've talked to my wife about this and I think we could be pretty happy with a Cape Dory 25d for around $15k. The rest would be spent on the minimum necessities to stretch the cash for a very long time. But we are willing to live without alot of creature comforts.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

Sorry to be so slow to respond; internet is pretty sketchy here in Paradise.

*the $20 for the engine included a crane to remove the old engine & put in the new; rebuild/work over the V-drive & work to mate the existing transmission; repitch the prop to be compatible with the new engine RPMs, and etc.

*maintenance: we're feeling lucky so far to be under budget, but that budget includes the annual haulout & bottom paint. When we're back in the Chesapeake in the summer, it'll also include a diver periodically to get the slime off the bottom (yeah, even with new paint!) and, GRRRRR! at least one outboard carburator rebuild every year if we're in the land of ethanol gasoline. 

*C-dad, I did too include the grill, under "miscellaneous items less than $1K each" the very last one. But it's been so chilly/windy that we've generally wanted the heat from the stove to warm the cabin, so we haven't used it much. Just traded a few 1-lb propane cylinders to another boat in exchange for some Kaliks.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

The rambling not well written thoughts of and almost 54 year old with a wife that does not like to sail to much and two children finishing Masters degrees  

I have chosen to NOT escape and instead set-up my life in a way that allows me to sail on my boat and others as much as i want .(4 days a week+) I do this with a diverse group of M/F people between 15 and 93 and its a LOT of FUN and works for US  

Most people with children do need health insurance and believe it or NOT were you live has a great affect on its cost as well as were YOU can see a doctor and have it covered and my costs are much like Johns above 1k a month 

Boats ,what every works BUT it changes we spent a LOT of weekends sailing the east End of Long Island with 4 on a J24 BUT a funny think happened  

Most of the people we want to take sailing cant really do the J24 anymore which prompted to the move to the Cal 29 

Again at 54 having paid 200+ boat bucks for various collage costs (it would have bought a heck of a boat ) i will continue my pay as you go as its whats GOOD for US


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## bb74 (Feb 11, 2009)

300K single with no attachments is a different story than 300K with a wife and 2 children. Currently in the latter situation, I'd have to say get a boat for weekend and vacations (better yet charter out bareboat for some holidays)...

Put aside 75K for each kid, spend 75K on your boat, and 75K for extended vacations with family and friends. Negotiate a 60 day sabbatical once the boat is set and head out with the family for a few weeks and see where it leads.

I know this is the conservative route but until the kids are independent and equipped to take on the world it's a tough proposition to drop everything and "just go". I realize the only thing we don't get back is "time" but that's a double edged sword when considering children and their needs at certain critical times.

...now 300K and a single without a port of call, that's an entirely different story...


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