# Spend my money



## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

Well after three years of scrimping and saving the plan has come together and it's time to look for a liveaboard to purchase.

The end goal is to purchase a blue water boat to do a circumnavigation but the current thinking is to purchase something smaller and cheaper than my 'ideal' boat and spend a couple years cruising between the Chesapeake and Bahamas until I figure out just how much I don't know. 

Besides lounging around, playing my ukulele, and getting lost at sea. I'm also interested in racing. Not so much racing around the marks as I don't need some adrenaline junkie who's half in the bag t-boning my home.

While hope springs eternal and past performance is no guarantee of future results, I fully expect to be single handing. 

My sailing experience is almost entirely dinghy sailing. My big boat experience is completing the USSailing's basic keelboat course and going out with Jeff_H a couple times on his 38 footer.

My budget is ~100k but since I'm starting smallish I'm looking for something under $50k about 35' long. Ideally I would like something I could sell in two or three years without losing my shirt.

Must haves
1. A touch of class (whatever that means)
2. A turn of speed (I'm using a PHRF of 150 for a 35' to make this determination)
3. Ability to carry my 5.5'/11' nesting dinghy (I'd rather carry it assembled if possible)
4. Less than 6' draft

Should haves in order of importance
1. Comfortable saloon 
2. Dry head (aka separate shower, this is the one luxury I really don't want to give up)
3. Swim platform / sugar scoop for easy access. (I've seen a few boats with aftermarket folding swim platforms on the transom so I'm flexible on this if a swim platform could be retrofitted.
4. 2nd stateroom 

Unicorn attributes ( I don't believe in Unicorns)
1. Beachable
2. Tabernacle mast

Ideally I'll purchase something on the Chesapeake but am willing to look all over the east coast and great lakes.

If you know what boats might fit this criteria I would love your input. If I was going to to try and get my forevever boat right away I would be looking for an Ericson 38-200, Tartan 372 or similar.

thanks,
Hugh


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

If you forget unicorn, you can prob find your 3 year boat for 1/2 of your budget


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

Yes, I don't expect any boat to have the Unicorn features. The Clearwater 35 is the closest thing I've seen to a perfect boat but I think the saloon is too compromised by the keel trunk to be a good live aboard.

If you can mention some of the boats that have the rest of the features I would be grateful.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Id be thinking hunter 34 ish
3 year boat


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## bristol299bob (Apr 13, 2011)

I'd consider a Bristol 33.3 or 35.5


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

35 or 38 C&C. No swim platform or seperate shower on 35 BUT great PHRF . My 35 is 127. Great pointing ability. Used to race her. Great accommodations with large V and headroom. Well made. 

Hard to find used ones.

I’m located around the corner from JeffH on Whitehall Creek


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Buy your last boat first. You will save a fortune and it will be ready to circumnavigate when you are and you will know it intimately.


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## JamesLD (Jul 16, 2019)

If you were buying me a Bluewater boat for under 100K, I would tell you that I could forego the sugar scoop and the dry head. 

I would then tell you that I want a Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34 or 37! :grin

Jim


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

boatpoker said:


> Buy your last boat first. You will save a fortune and it will be ready to circumnavigate when you are and you will know it intimately.


I completely agree with this ^^^^. When one buys any used boat, they start dumping money into it quickly. Best you not have to start over so quickly. Going from competent dinghy sailing to a 30 something foot boat is no big deal, especially after a little training.

p.s. The OP will lose their shirt on any boat they buy. No way to avoid. Even those that resell in the vicinity of what they pay, which is rare enough, they rarely consider all the maintenance, upgrades, etc. Then again, I'd rather use my shirt than have it just sit on the shelf.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I want to comment (yet again) on the separate.... or as the OP states "dry shower".

My Contest 36s has the head forward and it separates the V berth from the salon. The walls are high gloss varnish teak. The finish is in perfect condition 35 years on including living aboard for 5 or 6 years.
The head liner is gelcoat. There is some gel coated hull liner behind the head itself and a gel coated shower pan under the teak grate for the sole. The head contains 4 lockers... 2 tall on port and 2 short on stbd. Port are used for hanging and one for shelves for towels linen and assorted storage. Stbd are used as medicine and storage cabinets. The top stbd lockers is a deep shelf and at the hull is a raised teak board behind which all manner of bottles and tubes of liquids. The actual head is to stbd and the sink is a teak "box" with a ss sink in formica top with teak fiddles. All teak is varnish in high gloss. A large mirror is on above the sink. towels hang from hooks on the forward bulkhead. TP is on the inside of the locker door of the stbd cab. The sink fitting is a hand shower which includes a shut off valve at the handle. There is a large CL hatch which when open forward and pulls air from the bow. There is a hand hold on the forward bulkhead head side.

Our bead is the shower. We can shower standing... or sitting on the head. The walls do get wet. After showering we always open the hatch... it's open in summer when we shower. We squeegee the teak and then wipe it down with the towel. The only thing "wet" when we finish a shower is the teak grate. With the hatch open it dries very quickly. I have a forced air heat outlet in the bulkhead facing the head (toasty warm on cold days!) We we shower our entire head is "washed". Air flows through as the door is typically left open and latched. The head is by no means large but it's large compared to many I've seen.

We have no lingering head odors EVER. At first I had my doubts about a teak walk through head for many reasons. I don't any more and find it a well thought out and brilliant design.

Note we do not sleep in the V. It is use only for guests (rarely)... We stow things in the V... and it's like a walk in closet and its proximity to the head works fine. I also like the fact that the head is as far from the aft cabin where we sleep, the galley and the cockpit.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

The OP got me thinking after I posted about "dry heads"... 

Wouldn't it be useful to have a thread where owners do detailed review of their boats. I think the reviews should be from people who have owned their boats for more than a couple of years. The reviews of course should include how they sail... race, live aboard, week end cruising, distance cruising and of course were they sail or have sailed.

Presumably these sorts of boat owners have modified their boats... electronics, plumbing, sails, ground tackle, rigging, heat, ac, refer accessories, etc... or the mods were done by a previous owner. And presumably these owners will have discovered the strengths of the design of their boats as well as the weaknesses. I would think these sorts of reviews would be useful for someone buying a used boat... from the last decade and older.

I think the write ups should include deck layout, rig, sail control, steering, cockpit design, boarding access, cabin design, stowage cockpit and below, light and ventilation, engine, sleeping arrangement, head, finishes... sole, headliner, joinery. companionway, hull shape/design lay-up, including keel and rudder, build quality. Many of this info is available from the mfg, but should be reprised in a review.

How does the boat sail? light winds, heavy conditions... How is the motion at sea? Is it dry or wet?

What were some good surprises you realized after some time with the boat? What flaws emerged or things you would have wanted to be different?

These reviews would obviously take some effort and be lengthy to read... pics would help of course.

What say you?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I never thought I needed powered windows, powered door locks, cruise control, keyless entry, or lately a heated steering wheel. Once I got them anyway, because they simply came with the car I was buying, I'd never go back. 

Same for our separate onboard hot water shower. I wasn't shopping for it, but it was on the boat I bought. Remarkable difference in livability. 

Do I need it for minimal survival? Of course not. That's not my cruising vision. Further, we like numerous visitors aboard and it seems most don't. IMO, you need more shore-like accommodations, if you want to attract more of your friends and family. If you want to be alone, it can be entirely your own way.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I never thought I needed powered windows, powered door locks, cruise control, keyless entry, or lately a heated steering wheel. Once I got them anyway, because they simply came with the car I was buying, I'd never go back.
> 
> Same for our separate onboard hot water shower. I wasn't shopping for it, but it was on the boat I bought. Remarkable difference in livability.
> 
> Do I need it for minimal survival? Of course not. That's not my cruising vision. Further, we like numerous visitors aboard and it seems most don't. IMO, you need more shore-like accommodations, if you want to attract more of your friends and family. If you want to be alone, it can be entirely your own way.


Understood. I think your experience is not uncommon. I never would have wanted heated seats... but I find them great for my lower back issues... I use them all the time now.

Same for a windlass, an electric windlass and a powered winch!

++++

I would very much like to read a review by some of the great posters here... including YOU about your boat. I've read some excellent comments from salty sailors on this site and I would love for them to review their own boats which informs their thinking it would seem.


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## JamesLD (Jul 16, 2019)

Minnewaska said:


> I never thought I needed powered windows, powered door locks, cruise control, keyless entry, or lately a heated steering wheel. Once I got them anyway, because they simply came with the car I was buying, I'd never go back.
> 
> Same for our separate onboard hot water shower. I wasn't shopping for it, but it was on the boat I bought. Remarkable difference in livability.
> 
> Do I need it for minimal survival? Of course not. That's not my cruising vision. Further, we like numerous visitors aboard and it seems most don't. IMO, you need more shore-like accommodations, if you want to attract more of your friends and family. If you want to be alone, it can be entirely your own way.


I have never heard of anyone with a dry head say "I wish I had a wet head!"

That said, my guess is that it would be hard to find a sub 100K, bluewater boat, with a dry head.

Most boats are compromises. For many folks on smaller budgets, we have to compromise more than folks with bigger budgets!

Jim


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

As an architect who has done residential projects for decades I can assure you that design is a very complex process of listening to different "voices" as I call them. There are all many of constraints a designer must deal with... function, cost, finishes, legal constraints, style, aesthetics, environmental concerns, micro climatology, structure, mechanical systems and of course the program and more. It can be described as a juggling act or a huge jigsaw puzzle.

For sailboat design there are all sorts of precedent and prior "art" not to mention whether the design is intended for racing, local cruising or live aboard and ocean passages. Many boats can be fitted out or stripped down, I suppose to make them more suited to a specific use. Shiva was not designed as a ocean going boat. But with modifications and equipment she became one.

The "separate dry shower" is something seen in a lot of designs. I understand why... I think. But boats are small and why designate a space for a rarely used function like a shower? Obviously for larger boats space is not as much at a premium. I am by no means an expert on head design and haven't looked at or been in many boat heads. However conceptually... if you DON'T use space for a SEPARATE shower that space can be used to make the head larger by making the head the shower. I actually saw this done in a small bathroom in one of my sister's apartments in Florence Italy many years ago. It required that the walls were wiped down etc... and good ventilation but the bathroom was really only wet when used for a shower. It also meant that each use the marble covered walls were wiped clean. I have found the head / shower design in the 36s made a lot of sense. Wiping it down takes less than a minute... and since it's not like there is a line waiting to use the head... a wet head annoyance just doesn't happen. Yet a separate wet shower will usually have poor ventilation and add humidity to the interior of the head and the boat... and be more prone to odors and mildew. Who wipes dry the walls of a shower? Or even the glass door? Our "wet head" is rarely wet but a very functional design and well lit and ventilated too.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

I guess it depends on your definition of a blue water boat, but the Ericson 35 and 38 have dry heads. The Ericson so far is the only 35 footer I've found with a separate shower stall. Quite a few Beneteau Oceanis and the like have dry heads and are available for under $100k.


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## JamesLD (Jul 16, 2019)

Just my thought on budgets, and I'll direct this to the OP.

When someone tells be that they have a budget of 100k, I presume that this is their all-in budget. Maybe I'm wrong, and they have a separate budget to refit the vessel for extended cruising. If not, and there is an all-in budget of 100K, maybe there is 70K to purchase the boat, 5K for survey/taxes/etc., leaving a continency of 25K for updates.

Of course, maybe the best boating deals are for older boats that someone else has recently re-fitted?

Jim


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I find it sad so many appear to accept that water should get inside their boats

The list of good sub $100k boats is HUGE and can be quickly found on a yachtworld boat search


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> I want to comment (yet again) on the separate.... or as the OP states "dry shower".
> 
> My Contest 36s has the head forward and it separates the V berth from the salon. The walls are high gloss varnish teak. The finish is in perfect condition 35 years on including living aboard for 5 or 6 years.
> The head liner is gelcoat. There is some gel coated hull liner behind the head itself and a gel coated shower pan under the teak grate for the sole. The head contains 4 lockers... 2 tall on port and 2 short on stbd. Port are used for hanging and one for shelves for towels linen and assorted storage. Stbd are used as medicine and storage cabinets. The top stbd lockers is a deep shelf and at the hull is a raised teak board behind which all manner of bottles and tubes of liquids. The actual head is to stbd and the sink is a teak "box" with a ss sink in formica top with teak fiddles. All teak is varnish in high gloss. A large mirror is on above the sink. towels hang from hooks on the forward bulkhead. TP is on the inside of the locker door of the stbd cab. The sink fitting is a hand shower which includes a shut off valve at the handle. There is a large CL hatch which when open forward and pulls air from the bow. There is a hand hold on the forward bulkhead head side.
> ...


We also have a solid teak head in a liner. The wall get wet but dry quickly, like Sander the only thing left wet is the floor grate (teak) . We have a nicro vent in the head plus a hatch so it dries quickly. Never had any smell a either wet musty or sewerage.

We sleep in the V a lot. It's very large for a 35 footer and also has a huge hatch. We can also sleep in the salon. A boat our size with the old iroc design has a double quarterbeth but we use it for storage.

Part of why our boats sails so much better than most is it's design. It's isn't a long range cruiser but we have stayed in her for 3-4 weeks and have traveled 100 + miles offshore. I recommended a boat like this as you were looking for something to get practice and learn on for 3 years.

I m not sure with getting the final boat first is the correct strategy when unsure what you will feel is really necessary to have. I think your plan is sound. It will also give you time to continue looking around as to what the final boats offer in person than some internet search.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

ThereYouAre said:


> Yes, I don't expect any boat to have the Unicorn features. The Clearwater 35 is the closest thing I've seen to a perfect boat but I think the saloon is too compromised by the keel trunk to be a good live aboard.
> 
> If you can mention some of the boats that have the rest of the features I would be grateful.


I would agree that the Clearwater 35 has an unorthodox saloon, but that is part of a compromise for the extreme shallow draft ( ~ 2 ft) that is available when you need it. Shortcuts are available, and anchorages are bigger when you can retract your "landing gear". With the keel down (~6 ft) the Clearwater 35 will go to weather with the best.

The relatively roomy forward cabin somewhat makes up for the compromises in the main cabin. The upside of an intrusive keel trunk is that you have a ready bulkhead to brace yourself in rougher conditions. The linear galley to port and the head compartment to starboard are part of the design to accommodate the intrusive trunk, as seen in the thumbnails. That pushes the port and starboard settees aft by the companionway.

All that said, it would be best to see the layout in person if you think it might work for you. Understandably it won't for a lot of folks.


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## Interlude (Jun 16, 2016)

JamesLD said:


> If you were buying me a Bluewater boat for under 100K, I would tell you that I could forego the sugar scoop and the dry head.
> 
> I would then tell you that I want a Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34 or 37! :grin
> 
> Jim


I agree with Jim. Since the OP indicates that he may be a single hander, I would be tempted to look at something like this:

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/pacific-seacraft-31-3528807/

We sail a 31 as well and frankly preferred the layout to the 34 or 37, which we also looked at. In particular we loved the head back by the companionway (you aren't sleeping over your holding tank or traipsing wet items through the salon) and the open layout below. Everything becomes more manageable for a single hander if you can keep the size down as will the expenses. This example has been on the market for a while and looks to have tired sails, no lines led to cockpit, which can be accomplished, but recentish dodger, bimini etc., full winter cover and AC. Close by so maybe worth a look? The bones should be good and unless some unknown issue, the Yanmar is bullet proof. This boat is built to cross oceans but is nimble enough to perform well on the Bay. You can clearly buy more boat for less, but since you mentioned passage making this is what such boats are made for, sea kindly and seaworthy. That price should leave you with funds for the inevitable refits and work. You should plan to spend 20% of the cost within a year or two on replacing and fixing "stuff" on any boat. Plus if you don't find yourself turning around to look at her as you leave her you are just gunna end up having an affair and getting another boat. Try to get both looks and personality! Oh and avoid the temptation to buy stuff till you have owned her for awhile, and also try to avoid the temptation to keep going up in size. As Larry Pardey said, "go simple, go small, go now."

OBTW, the 31's (as the 34 & 37's) are still made and that is a huge asset. It means parts, support and keeps price up. Went to go visit Pacific Seacraft this past May and looked at a new 31 about to be splashed...just north of $415k! Yikes! They cost about $65-75k when new in 1989.

Good luck. You are welcome to PM me if wished. As a dinghy sailor you will find such a boat easier to sail than your dinghy! If set up right she will hold course with no hand on the wheel or auto pilot.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hre ya go

https://www.boats.com/sailing-boats/1985-contest-36s-7018738/


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Lots of newish..very expensive stuff


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

That 36s is not only a great passage maker live aboard cruiser.. it's a shallow draft! and priced to sell.


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## Interlude (Jun 16, 2016)

Gunna be hard to beat that! Not wild about overall appearance but only because I have never had the eye for European designs, though many prefer the sleek look and flush topsides. Definitely worth a look!

This is fun spending someone else's money!


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

Thanks for the pointers to the listings.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Interlude said:


> I agree with Jim. Since the OP indicates that he may be a single hander, I would be tempted to look at something like this:
> 
> https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/pacific-seacraft-31-3528807/
> 
> ...


Good choice


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> hre ya go
> 
> https://www.boats.com/sailing-boats/1985-contest-36s-7018738/


Looks good especially with the Yanmar replacement
Priced a little high though but you can negotiate


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

The Contest 36s looks promising and I've emailed the broker.

I appreciate the build quality and the reputation for sea kindliness of the Pacific Seacraft but they don't do much for me style wise. An Ericson 380 built by Pacific Seacraft would be on the short list if available and affordable.

I've found some other prospects on yachtworld and would appreciate your thoughts.
Caliber 33
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990/caliber-33-3090721/

Caliber 35
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1993/caliber-35-3584568/

Sabre 34 MkII
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990/sabre-34-mark-ii-3499473/

CS34
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990/cs-34-3569858/

I also like the layout of the Catilina 34 and 36 and the Beneteau 351.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

Is it worthwhile to get a buyers broker for <50k boat? If so could someone recommend a broker in the Mid-Atlantic region?

thanks.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

In my prejudiced opinion there is no comparison between those two listings. The Contest is loaded with new engine sails, rigging, and equipment life raft, SSB radio, below decks AP... totally loaded and ready to cruise. And the listing is more than 10k below the Pacific Seacraft. Definitely different style and look... but much more value in the Contest. And it sails faster than the Seacraft.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> In my prejudiced opinion there is no comparison between those two listings. The Contest is loaded with new engine sails, rigging, and equipment life raft, SSB radio, below decks AP... totally loaded and ready to cruise. And the listing is more than 10k below the Pacific Seacraft. Definitely different style and look... but much more value in the Contest. And it sails faster than the Seacraft.


All that is what the ad says......and with a grain of salt we know that can not be true.

PS are no slouch boats Jeff.

None of this takes away from the Contest which you sail also so you may be a slight bit prejudiced.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> All that is what the ad says......and with a grain of salt we know that can not be true.
> 
> PS are no slouch boats Jeff.
> 
> None of this takes away from the Contest which you sail also so you may be a slight bit prejudiced.


I am just comparing the SPECS nothing to do with my admitted prejudice. THAT Contest equipment list wipes out the Seacraft... and the asking price is much lower!

Did you read the entire listing and compare it and the photos?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Jeff,

you been on SN long enough to have seen others come on here time and time again complaining about the ads the see on line and when they go see the boats it looks nothing like what’s advertised. I don’t beleive all that I read. The pics could be 20 years old of the interior. 

the ad says

The list In recent years she's received:

NEW engine
NEW standing and running rigging
NEW steeringYou’ve been on SN long enough to hear p
NEW refrigeration
NEW batteries
NEW spinnaker
NEW roller furler
NEW watermaker
NEW windlass
NEW life raft

My question is how recent. The sails are shot out as the are over 15 years old. the MFD is ancient and will need replacement. 

I will point out this boat has been for sale for over 6 months . I’ve seen her advertised that long. If it was such a peach for that price surely someone would have snatched it up. I recall seeing it from afar at the Annapolis Boat Show brokerage basin. 

I do suggest the OP check her out of course. She could be legit. She could be a leaky teak with damage. Why did they replace the engine? 

Even then $49K is too much. It’s been asking that for 6 months.

The OP has to decide what kind of boat he wants. That’s done by looking at many different kinds. We all have done that buying boats. Some boats talk to you, others don’t. You can only tell by looking at them. Also you have to decide whether the boat you want is appropriate to the area you will sail in. None of can answer that. Only the OP can. 

If this is to be sailed in the Chesapeake it would not make my list. If it was for offshore , it definitely makes my list. 

Let’s see what he reports back. Would love for him to say it talked to him.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

And yes I looked at the whole list. Personally I have always like Pacific Seacraft. My best friend has a 37 ketch and sailed 4500 miles on it last year. He spent 5 months in the Caribbean then up the coast to the LI Sound, Maine and Nova Scotia. It’s a great boat. Well made and still made. For the size I would feel safe anywhere on one. 

Contests were also made well. We all know your passion for the boat you own. It is commendable. One in great condition would make a sailor who likes that kind of boat very happy.😁


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Dave I am not going to argue with you. Some boats are on the market for a long time. Scott bought a boat a like that a year older and it looks the same. Pics don't lie very much. Sure new may not be new in the past year or so... and most owners expect to update electronics and maybe sails which depend on hours of use and conditions of use more than chrono age. Can't tell much about the teak deck from the pics. But the interior doesn't show signs of leaks. It needs to be looked at and surveyed. The price aligns which what similar boats are selling for and we all know equipment doesn't raise the price usually. But the dink, OB and raft will be spendy to replace.

Finally I am biased because I have almost the same boat and have sailed it 40,000+ miles and I know how it sails in all conditions and what it's like to live in. My opinion is based on years of hands on experience. Knowledge is not bias. But I have no experience on a Seacraft. That's correct.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Agree with you. I hope he finds it in great condition, and it speaks to him as Shiva did to you and Haleakula did to me. If I am in Annapolis this week I will drive by her. I’m not mobile enough to climb up her yet. 

The used boat market prices have been depressed for a number of years now. It’s hard to find the boat that speaks to you, passes survey and then get it at fair price. There are also lots of 35-40 ft boats for sale in the Annapolis area. 

7 years ago when we almost sold Haleakula for my ( at the time) forever boat, a Mason 44 when made offers on two of them. The owners wouldn’t budge on either. One, I think he just wanted to see how much it was worth and in the end run was not serious about selling . 

If the OP likes what he sees and it’s priced right for him....that’s a great story....let’s see how it plays my friend
😃😃👍👍🤘🤘


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Agree with you. I hope he finds it in great condition, and it speaks to him as Shiva did to you and Haleakula did to me.
> ������������


Dave... the "speaks to me" is an interesting concept. As you may know I bought the 36s as someone who had no experience with boats... only has sailed on one 31' (happened to be a Contest) before I bought Shiva. Perhaps I should write a post of how that all went down.

I did not know what to look for from having read some books about cruising and boat ownership. There were no YTs back then... no internet to look at listings and so on. I did visit a few boats with one broker. I didn't really know what I was looking at or what to look for. I was completely naive and unschooled about sailboats. And I didn't even know much about the different between the types and uses except the concept that racing boats would be lean and mean and a live aboard would but big and comfy.

But some things about the boat did appeal to me from the get go. Among them were the materials, the build quality, the plan and use of space (I could see that as an architect and a woodworker). This included things like privacy, adjacency, size, head room... ergonomics stuff. My first impression of the 31 was how well "designed" it was, how functional and parsimonious.,, no space wasted.. everything had one or more purposes. Optimal use of space. This is, or should be a meme for a boat. Few are so large that space is not a premium. Small boats need to have very functional designs... and for me be comfortable to spend lots of time on. Functional means to me ease of sailing with good comfort.

We tend to want as much space as we can (afford) and fill it with whims. Boats don't work that way.

So my first impression was that the 36s seemed to hit all the right notes. YES. I hadn't a clue about how it was to sail and operate the boat as much as what it would be like to spend lots of time on and in the boat.

+++

Take the dual helms we see now because of the wide sterns and hull shape. CL helm makes it "hard to see" what you need to see.... they say. So 2 helms may make sense. BUT... as I have come to sail.... my approach and style... I don't drive the boat from the wheel except to approach and leave a dock or slip and anchor and moor and the rare occasion when sea conditions means I can do better than the AP. Some times I accept the APs short comings in those conditions and other time I take over and drive. And some times it's just a hoot in the right conditions to drive. But two helm stations is not an attribute that appeals to me... and it comes with a lot of extra expense. My view is informed by my practice and experience.


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## Interlude (Jun 16, 2016)

ThereYouAre said:


> Is it worthwhile to get a buyers broker for <50k boat? If so could someone recommend a broker in the Mid-Atlantic region?
> 
> thanks.


Unless you deal with the listing broker, which happens to be the listing agent, you probably will not get a discount offered, which is the sellers expense but maybe a possible discount in price as a result. I would be inclined to seek someone who "gets it" as far as your desires and goals. The commission will still be the same and it gets you out of the loop with "stuff". Because we had narrowed the choices to a Pacific Seacraft (had considered many others earlier) we engaged a broker who understood those and sold many.

I know I had suggested looking at the PSC 31 and others are debating a different design but what is the most important matter is that you spend time thinking about the boat's pedigree, quality, seaworthiness and sea kindliness, lot's of time. Spending a bit more for a boat that the PO has refitted and upgraded almost always is a better deal than a project boat, but regardless IT MUST HAVE GOOD BONES. Having the manufacture still in business and the model still being made is great for the reasons I've already stated. There are many boats that meet these requirements, not just PSC or Contest. Based upon your comment about the style of PSC not floating your boat, I would not recommend one even if a great deal and clearly great boats. Ya gotta love her looks! She doesn't have to be perfect, they usually never are, but you must find yourself gazing at her. It also helps if others like to as well!

Finally be willing to change what you want as you acquire knowledge but don't be stopped by the paralysis of analysis. The big thing is to do it! This is a great time to pick up a great boat that needs a new owner. I have remained in contact with the previous and original owner of Interlude since she was new and who had to sell her for health reasons. One of the first questions I asked him was "why that boat with all of the boats out there for sale?" His reply, "have you ever seen a beautiful women with a great personality and just can' get her off your mind?!" Yup, know the feeling, and you will too.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Interlude makes an excellent point about support for an "old" design. And this even includes the components like engine, rig and so forth. These items may and often will go south and you may not be able to repair or get parts.

So the good bones is a key point. To me that means excellent materials, build quality and robust components from established reputable companies. Fungible things are not a real concern. Good design, sea kindliness, speed, comfort have nothing to do with whether the builder is still in business or producing that design. Design is an intangible bone ;-)

Aesthetics is a whole other ball of wax. Some of it as like fashion... sort of irrational. What looks good one year looks old hat the next. Yet there classics which appeal to many people. What is important is the look appeals to YOU. And understand why it does.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Whether the company is still making the boats was never a factor for me. C&C is Still in business Kind of but looks nothing like the 1983 C&C 35 MKIII I have. Their old designs are classics. Many other makers / designers of great boats are out of business but let’s face it , the designs are still good.

We are not talking here about boats such as Catalina which has a definite following due to their owner loyalty. Their designs are timeless and really don’t vary dramatically. They are still alive do to their ability to deliver a good product at a specific segment of the sailing community at a reasonable price. Same with Benetaeu who because of its diversity of fleets capture and continues to capture a good share and has its loyal customers.

Let’s face it engines are separate from the boat, though there is a certain engine which would disqualify my purchase. ( I don’t want to get into that as it’s a separate already argued topic in other threads ) . Winch equipment, electronics, sails are all add one which can be put on any boat. Plumbing , pumps , all will be replaced during their lifetime. So in reality I’m not sure what difference it makes in the design of a boat if the manufacturer is still in business. Their designs are timeless. Equipment can be replaced. Many of these boats still have specs and diagrams. In actuality there have been advancements in many of the add ons or replacement parts you wouldn’t want original equipment. Many of these good companies were lost due to financial mismanagement or the market in the 90,s which drove many of them out of business as people gave up luxury items to survive.

A simple example is Haleakulas electric panel. I replaced the original 14 switch C&C dc side 12 years ago. It had the old tube fuses as was sufficient for the time era. I had starting doubling up equipment on its switches so that’s what started the replacement wheels turning. So I looked around. Blue Seas had some outstanding panels. Quaility, prewired, neat set up. Easy for a a DYI . I waited till I found one on sale. Low and behold Boaters World went out of business and in a basket at one of the stores I found it. Normally $600+ ( and still is) I found a 24 switch panel for $125. It became my new HUB for electricity and was a major improvement. I had to create a teak panel to place it in and to fit into the space the old C&C panel. At a C&C rendezvous a year later other C&C owners were amazed at how good it looked replacing the old C&C labeled panel. Point is add ons can be better than OEM. It was a significant upgrade as I redid all the wiring on Haleakula. 

Saying this I always look to see how many of those older boats still are sailing and are still actively being traded and sold. Manufacturers like Pearson, Sabre, Tartan , Hinkley , Bristol, C&C still have large fleets and still are traded and resold. Classic hull designs.

So I’m not saying to disregard the fact that the manufacturer is still present, just that it’s importance to the choice of a used boat should go way down the list. Storage, build quality, condition should go up the list. 

Another example. I think many of us “old timers” really like the thick gelcoat our older boats have. As advances in technology happened and boats became lighter through use of vacuum bagging, carbon fiber, etc. many of us swear to our boats solid longevity and stiff feel to this “extra heavy “ gelcoat. Maybe it’s why our boats are still around 30-40 years later. Older Tartans where the companies name was made are bulletproof. Newer vacuum bagged ones have had issues. Let’s see if they last. 

Sorry this is all over the place as I started out with talking about the importance of a boats manufacturer still making boats as a critic to buying a used boat.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Dave lots of good ideas in this last post. 

I suppose that regardless of the brand older ones are much less expensive. Many of the newer used designs are very much a different look.... nothing resembling anything "traditional". I am by no means an expert on the design trends of the last 40 years and evaluate aesthetics from my own perspective. You are correct that virtually everything but the hull and the joinery can be changed or updated and equipment is because its service live is much less than the hull or even a diesel.

A person shopping for a boat needs to know where and how they will be sailing. This will drive the comfort/plan considerations. Budget will be a key limiting filter. Most expect to spend money on a new used boat for upgrades.

Day use calls for a different design than weekend cruising... and different for term cruising, live aboard and passage making and cruising through the tropics. Sure Minni can use his boat exclusively for day sails with family. But he can take that boat for a long cruise to anywhere! My own built evolved from a weekend racer cruiser to a offshore passage maker long term cruiser.... because I decided to do that kind of sailing. It was new. Used boats have usually been evolved to some type of sailing suited to some location. Buy it and make it fit your needs. That is one of the joys of boat ownership. Making it yours.


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## Interlude (Jun 16, 2016)

Yup, i should like to think that i am a timeless design but some of my systems seem to need upgrading....but it appears that i am a one-off. Parts are impossible to find!

As far as a boat still being made, I was little concerned with the items not made by Pacific Seacraft for as pointed out newer and possibly better items can generally be had (though i am sad the bronze age is over!) but more about having a little changed design that because it is still being made, evolutions in systems and components are constantly being improved and it's nice to have access to that knowledge base. The water tank lids are just such an example. The older designs would eventually leak some when on a good heel. Customer feedback and voila! a phone call gets me the new improved permanent fix. Ours haven't yet but..... It is also reassuring to know that if we need a new pulpit, fuel tank, companionway slider, chainplates, hatch lids, hell even a keel, etc. a phone call does it all. Also it is a fact that cuz they cost so much new, the ones out there are holding their value well. Their designs have not changed because as their statement regarding this fact says, "the demands of the sea have not".

When you have a boat with good bones, a timeless design, whether still made or no, the work you put into her is not wasted. You should love your boat...they know when we are talking smack about them!


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## JamesLD (Jul 16, 2019)

Interlude said:


> I agree with Jim. Since the OP indicates that he may be a single hander, I would be tempted to look at something like this:
> 
> https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/pacific-seacraft-31-3528807/
> 
> ...


I love the open layout of the 31 and it is one of my favorite boats!

Needless to say, I also love the Dana 24. 

Jim


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Here's a few Annapolis area boats from reputable manufacturers. Note sure their condition. If your in the area might want to take a quick look ie

https://sailyard.com/inventory

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/61962

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/81341


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Will be transparent and state we owned and cruised a PSC 34 and loved it. Only thing we really didn’t like was engine access via a pick up hatch which also served as cockpit sole. Incredibly stupid design as there’s no way you can safely work in that space underway once it get sporty. You see the same thing in some cats. Engine troubles on passage. You’re not an auxiliary but rather a true sailboat. 
Will further state at this point would never own a cruising boat without a separate shower stall. Once you leave the tropics access to a nice hot shower is a biggie. That space is multi use. Wet foulies or clothes. Wash down. Place to dump dirty things or salty things. And you can clean it with minimal difficulties.
Similarly activities of daily living ergonomics is critically important for a cruising boat. Here cruising grounds, fitness of crew, duration of passages and transits inform that judgment.
Simple stuff dramatically changes your experience. A single wheeled boat may mean you need to dance around that wheel to get to the swim platform. A double wheeled boat by mean you need good balance to move around the cockpit in a seaway.
A center cockpit may mean lots of steps in the companionway. A single level boat may mean storm board(s) even in moderate conditions.
The list is endless. At all sizes and price points there are boats that favor a certain type of cruising. Before you shop think long and hard about how you expect to cruise. Places requiring lots of anchor chain? Need a boat that can carry it without ruining trim. Bad knees? Forget center cockpits if you plan on frequent ocean passages. And so on.
Remember they say labor is cheaper outside the US. But shipping,vat, accessibility, finding skilled workers make it more difficult. Cost evens out in the long run. So a Bristol, well found boat is worthwhile unless you don’t want a long term ownership. Best of luck.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Out... your point about a shower as a wet locker and place for wet stuff is a good one. It's true no one can control the weather. I lived aboard in the tropics and didn't use foulies EVER. If I got wet from spray... not rain... I just changed to another T shirt. 

I certainly agree with you about a warm/hot shower. Boat showering for me use little water. But it's enough to clean and refresh. Hot water for my boat is related to how and when the engine runs...which for me is usually getting going and then returning. I run the engine when I use the windlass as well. Hot water is available for showers and dishes. I am not a sailing purist... I use the engine as needed for propulsion, heating water, topping batts, and cooling the refer. 

I don't have a separate shower stall but use the head for wet stuff... same deal doesn't stay wet long and there's a hanging locker in the head. I've had no problems without a separate shower stall. In a larger boat it makes sense.

All boats are a series of design compromises.


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## Interlude (Jun 16, 2016)

*'Will be transparent and state we owned and cruised a PSC 34 and loved it. Only thing we really didn't like was engine access via a pick up hatch which also served as cockpit sole. Incredibly stupid design as there's no way you can safely work in that space underway once it get sporty.'*

agreed. It was one of the factors why we chose the 31. Complete engine access in 15 seconds of completely out of the weather and still where if ever needed, motor can be lifted out with boom.

*"Will further state at this point would never own a cruising boat without a separate shower stall. Once you leave the tropics access to a nice hot shower is a biggie. That space is multi use. Wet foulies or clothes. Wash down. Place to dump dirty things or salty things. And you can clean it with minimal difficulties."
*

having our head by the companionway, with its own wet locker was another feature that was important to us. A separate shower was less important than those considerations. Everyone is different but we were looking for simple elegant solutions. Wanted the least plumbing necessary.

* "Remember they say labor is cheaper outside the US. But shipping,vat, accessibility, finding skilled workers make it more difficult. Cost evens out in the long run. So a Bristol, well found boat is worthwhile unless you don't want a long term ownership. Best of luck."
*

totally agree

All designs are compromises, and all people desire different features, we desired seaworthy, seakindly, still made, top shelf components, top shelf construction, simplest design for our needs, traditional good looks, bristol or close to condition, shoal draft (Chesapeake cruising grounds but still designed to cross oceans), good resale value in case! What this means is that the OP must understand what they want. What we wanted is totally immaterial other than to give perspective. Many folks who have replied have good perspective for their needs which may be different from ours or his. There is no right answer, but there are wrong boats. If unclear what you want, charter, spend time with friends boats (knowing the fact they will laud theirs!), be real about what is necessary vs what is wanted. How we approach ownership of almost anything also determines how that boat is achieved. In our case, I have always known I will choose quality over quantity, thoughtful design over trending fashion, and as a result we tend to hold things forever. We will not own something if they can't be afforded rather than a cheaper alternative. This does not suggest that one should buy the most expensive item but if you hold "things" (a boat is a thing) the least expensive one is the one you can own once, satisfies your needs, your proud of, and thus you don't want anything else. It is freeing.

...obtw you guys are the best!


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## bajaking (Jun 6, 2013)

Niagara 35 Encore ticks many of the PO's boxes, basically in the same way as Ericson 35-3 or 38. I'm biased since I have the "Classic" version (which has a wet head, but that's easier for a big guy like me to shower in). With 100k you'd have plenty left to make it like new. They seemed to improve in build quality with time, another reason to go for a later Encore. Skip the Classic unless it's been well kept up (don't ask..). But at only ~100 built, not easy to find unless you're a Canadian.

While I think this N35 could end up being my almost-last boat and thus I'm able to fool myself into dumping stupid money into it, I admit I kind of regret not waiting until I had funds for a Catalina 42. I know, I know...how can I even mention it in the same thread with photos of Crealocks? That's what I would have thought, before I read "Bluewater sailing on a budget" and poked around a couple 42s at a brokerage.
At 100k it would be hard to find one that won't need more funds for improvements, especially for bluewater plans, and it's basically a wedge of cheesecake missing the "touch of class", but for sheer liveaboard comfort combined with also being a decent sailer and perfectly capable of reasonable passagemaking it would be on my short list. Doesn't hurt that the builder is still in business and made a lot of them. More dockage cost if the PO is going to be shore-bound for long, though, and of course there's the LOA cost-of-ownership multiplication factor. Decent casual racer. I bet a few minutes in that pullman berth and forward shower after climbing - walking, actually - aboard via the transom would have the PO reaching for his checkbook.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

bajaking said:


> Niagara 35 Encore ticks many of the PO's boxes......


I have a friend that owns one and I sail on it annually. I like that boat quite a lot and I much prefer the Encore layout. Feels big for a 35. Performs well, not a speedster, not a slug. Great all around boat.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

On Saturday I went to Rock Hall to look at the 85 Contest 36s, a 96 Beneteau 351, and a 79 Sabre 34 Classic.

I was shown the Beneteau 351 and it looked to be in very nice shape. The only things I really didn't like about the 351 was the fixed bean shaped table in the saloon and there was a composting toilet in the head. While I generally like the idea of composting toilet the head was so small that the toilet took up almost the entire space. There was a new bimini and dodger and sails and overall it was nice.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1994/beneteau-oceanis-351-3589110/


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

The Contest was parked right next to the Beneteau and overall it presented poorly. The boat had tarps had covering it which made it very had to look at and walk on the deck. The dinghy took up the entire foredeck and also impeded access and inspection. The support for the wind generator blocked the access to the cockpit from the board ladder so you have to do contortions to get past it. I like the layout of the cockpit and the layout of the interior is very nice but when the broker opened up the boat it had a powerful old boat smell to it. I also opened up one of the port lights because I was curious about the screen and the hinge either broke or was already broken. Maybe that's why it was kept covered. I really didn't notice any evidence of large leaks.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/contest-36s-3521496/

The third boat was the Sabre. It was old and needing lots of love but charming. The 40 year old cushions looked almost new and I was tempted to got and get some bell bottom jeans so I wouldn't clash with the cushions. No pictures of the Sabre.
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1979/sabre-34-classic-3541058/

Overall none of the boats I saw that day really got me excited.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

Sunday I drove down to Norfolk. Jeff_H put me on the trail of another Unicorn and I drove 6 hours to look at a Nightwind 35. Since I was driving that far I took the opportunity to look at a 88 Tartan 34-2 , and a 87 Catalina 34 which were in the same club's marina.

The first boat I saw was the Tartan 34 and the owner was there to show it off. It was very nice and it was obvious the owner kept it in top shape. The only negatives I found with the boat are; it has a baby fore stay which really limits room for a dingy and one of the chain plate things had some brown staining but I was able to wipe it off. Possibly a small leak. The engine access was pretty fantastic.
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1988/tartan-34-2-3618336/


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

Two more pictures of the Tartan.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Good reviews... Clearly the Contest has been essentially abandoned by the owner... Most seller spruce of their boats so they look as good as they can. Too bad. Boat has good bones and looks like it was neglected and a buyer would need to know that. I have upgraded almost everything... so nothing doesn't work.

We visited ours for the first time in a month. Wifey said... WOW no musty odors at all. Boat looked super. But I take care of the boat and 1 month is the longest I've been away from her.

My buddy sold his Omega36 (Swedish boat) which is a very nice boat. He was in ill health, it was covered and neglected... and gave the same vibes. Too bad. But someone got a good buy on it.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Ask yourself...
How much time do you plan to spend in the head


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

The Nightwind was moored next to the Tartan. Wow! While only 1 foot longer compared to the Tartan the Neverwind felt like an aircraft carrier. Moving about the deck was very easy and the side decks are wide and uncluttered. The cockpit was shockingly, possibly disturbingly large. I'd think I would want a permanent table in the center just to have something to hold onto.

The owner of this boat used it primarily for racing and day sailing so it lacked a lot of the amenities of the Tartan. It's also cosmetically rather tired looking. The interior was very usable but it lacks refrigeration and the stove has been removed. While there is an anchor there is no chain or road. That's a minimum of three things that would need to rectified before being able to cruise full time on this boat.

I would also have to expend a fair amount time, energy, and boat bucks to get the cosmetics up to that 'touch of class' level.

Nonetheless with a minimum draft of 2'8" and its reputation as a top notch sailor I'm going to try and find out more about it's history and construction to see if it would be worth the time, effort, and money.
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1982/nightwind-35-3610069/

pictures of empty propane locker, helm, chain plate,


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

More Nightwind pictures. Bilge access, other stuff, tiny head. (Not sure if the tiny head is a plus or a minus. If it's tiny there's less to clean. ), leaking mast and a little corrosion


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

Last Nightwind pictures. Engine access and evidence of some of the cosmetic damage which is pretty prevalent on the boat. The second pic is of the chipped finish in the cockpit. There were many example of this type of damage in the cockpit.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

The third boat I saw today was the Catalina. I like Catalinas, there's something about them that I find particularly inviting. It definitely had the nicest head of the three and the worst engine access. Other than that it was a Catalina. It looked to be well taken care of and just generally nice.
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/catalina-34-3540813/

I wouldn't mind owning any of the three boats I saw today. Well maybe the Nightwind when I was working on it but the payoff would probably (possibly) be worth it.

Sailboatdata comparison of the three boats I looked at today
https://sailboatdata.com/compare/results?utm_source=lab&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=compare

Catalina pictures: Luxurious head (compared to the rest), Second fridge, Easy access to house bank, poor engine access, Newly finished wood,.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

Yes the Contest still had all the personal possessions aboard. There was no attempt to make the boat presentable.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

RegisteredUser said:


> Ask yourself...
> How much time do you plan to spend in the head


Depends on the size of the hot water tank. Seriously though that composting toilet was huge. You couldn't stand in front of the sink. Probably should bring this up in one of the composting threads but I wonder how they would be affected by showering in the same space?


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

I'm planning on taking a look at an 85 Sabre 36, 93 Caliber 35, and a 89 J Boats 34c this weekend. Any feedback in general or know issues with these models would be appreciated.

thanks,
Hugh


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

boatpoker said:


> Buy your last boat first. You will save a fortune and it will be ready to circumnavigate when you are and you will know it intimately.





Minnewaska said:


> I completely agree with this ^^^^. When one buys any used boat, they start dumping money into it quickly. Best you not have to start over so quickly. Going from competent dinghy sailing to a 30 something foot boat is no big deal, especially after a little training.
> 
> p.s. The OP will lose their shirt on any boat they buy. No way to avoid. Even those that resell in the vicinity of what they pay, which is rare enough, they rarely consider all the maintenance, upgrades, etc. Then again, I'd rather use my shirt than have it just sit on the shelf.


If it's not too late, the above posts are the ones you should be paying attention to - not the ones encouraging your intermediate plans. If your intentions really are true to your stated plans, then you are making a mistake buying an "in-between boat". You are just throwing money away that won't be available when you are cruising, and likely delaying your planned cruising start date significantly, if not indefinitely. I'm speaking from experience of owning 3 cruising boats, and I suspect boatpoker and Minnewaska are speaking from at least that much experience each. They know the score, and speak the truth.

Mark


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## Interlude (Jun 16, 2016)

Just got back from boat and making sure she is tucked in well for winter. Found myself chatting with the fellow that owns a BCC at our marina and was reminded of their striking good looks and top notch construction. Not my cup of tea as clearly we developed eyes for our PSC 31 but not too dissimilar as both very traditional in looks and uber good construction and actually BCC's are still made. I know this is totally different from everything you have been considering and is frankly no where close by but given your budget and what has been done to this boat at least thought you would enjoy looking at what $59k can get ya. Real eye candy!

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1998/bristol-channel-cutter-28-3561717/

.....oh as said before, if you can get a boat that has already had all the work done and also own forever you will ALWAYS make out better. The hard part is finding out what that boat is.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I definitely agree with not moving from boat to boat if you have a good feeling for where you want to end up. You just lose a lot of time and money fitting out and learning a boat only to sell it and start the process over.

So how do you find the so called "last boat"? I suppose you need to produce a wish list of what you want to have, ignore the budget at first. The look for boats that meet your wish list. I would expect to do an "electronics" upgrade for almost any boat you buy used that's not had an electronics upgrade for a decade or more. N2K allows you to insert new gear onto the back bone in the same locations... which presumably are correct. Other aged equipment can be replaced as needed over time if it is serviceable.. things such as AP, hatches and ports, head, pumps, batteries, lighting, windlass and ground tackle, running rigging, (even standing rigging), sails, canvas, cushions, deck hardware, winches and so on. If the hull, keel and rudder, engine, and spars are in good shape the boat has good bones and you can renew it successfully.

LOA, LWL, draft, accommodation plan, stowage, tankage, deck layout, you are stuck with so these need to work for you. And of course "style". There are boats of all ages and designs which are suitable and have done the job. But not every sailor will have the same needs.

++++

I knew nothing about this in any practical way from experience. I was fortunate to but a boat which lent itself to fitting out for living aboard and offshore passages and I spend 5 years doing the fitting out which was mostly ADDING gear not changing or upgrading. Over the 3 decade plus period I have owned the boat I have upgraded and replaced almost everything not unexpected of course. But the bones remained and were excellent and experience proved that to be the case. For me it meant single and short handed sailing. I don't know if fit myself to the boat or I made it fit to me... or a little of both. But I know that the Contest36s worked out great for me and how I sail. At times I wax about having a larger boat with more of everything... and then think... that comes with a price literally and figuratively.

You'll find the right boat if you understand what you are looking for and what you need.

++++++

Edit:
Google and see if you find the boat you're interested in having done a similar "duty". This is something you may be able to do now with so many people having boat blogs and YT channels. I do know of one Contest36s out there right now and I saw Scott do all manner of upgrades and refits. He's a member here and his experience would be valuable for someone consider a 36s. 

You should definitely reach out to owners of model you are thinking about who have done the type of sailing you are contemplating. Most owner love to talk about their boats and what they have to say beats any broker's pitch or listing they publish.


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## Aloysius Ochiamu (Jan 18, 2020)

Alright, I'd like you buy your forever boat, but what are you going to be doing with the boat?


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## Aloysius Ochiamu (Jan 18, 2020)

Alright, I'd like you buy your forever boat, but what are you going to be doing with the boat?


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## Interlude (Jun 16, 2016)

Aloysius Ochiamu said:


> Alright, I'd like you buy your forever boat, but what are you going to be doing with the boat?


The OP's first post described what he hoped to do and what he hoped to get. Go back to that and your question will be answered! Easy to forget the original purpose for a thread after a few pages.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

I looked at three boats this weekend.

The first was a Sabre 36 .
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/sabre-36-3576794/

I liked the boat overall and the damaged sole didn't bother me much as it supposedly happened before the current owner bought the boat 30 years ago. However I did find some wet spots on the port settee indicating water was leaking into the boat. The broker mentioned that someone else had made an offer so I doubt this one will still be on the market when I finally decide on what I want.

The second boat I looked at was a Caliber 35. 
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1993/caliber-35-3584568/

This boat appeared to be in fantastic shape. I couldn't find anything to dislike about this one except possibly the in mast furling. Also I think a Tartan 34-2 would be a better sailor and cheaper but no sugar scoop.

The third boat was a J Boat 34c which was parked next to the Sabre I had looked at the previous day.
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/j-boats-34c-3591345/

The J Boat was covered for the winter so it was hard to get around the deck but other than some cracking gel coat in a few areas it seemed to also be in very good shape. I preferred the layout of the Tartan and Caliber more than the J Boat, mainly due to not being able to convert one of the settees into a double berth. The head arrangement on the J Boat also seemed a bit silly with the two doors. OTOH sailboatdata would indicate that it could sail circles around pretty much any other boat I've looked at.

I'm taking everyone's advice to try and find my last boat first seriously. It's a bit of a catch-22 since I don't know what I don't know. I'm also starting by looking at smaller boats with the adage that you should get the smallest boat you can live with. If I can't find what I want in the 35' range I'll start looking at bigger boats.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Certainly any J-boat, even the cruising versions will sail circles around most of the other boats you are looking at. J-Boats doesn't make many slow boats. The interior of that 34c is pretty typical of Js, with a bit more woodwork than their faster models. 

Every boat has compromises. There is no getting around that. I think the idea of getting "your last boat first" is not very realistic. If you are planning on short range cruising and racing you will want a much different boat than you would want for live aboard and long range cruising.

You should focus on getting the right boat for your needs in the near future, and worry about your long term goals as you get closer to that time. You will probably find that features you consider important now are much less important to you once you gain some experience. You should also be wary about getting starting out with a bigger boat. Even a 35ft boat is quite a lot of boat for a beginner, particularly if you get a powered up boat like a J. Everything costs more on bigger boats. There is something to be said for learning about boat maintenance on a smaller, less expensive boat. You might find a 40ft boat in your price range needs an overwhelming amount of maintenance.

I went from a 20ft to a 30ft to a 39ft and each step was a big leap. I couldn't imagine having a 39ft boat for my first one.

A

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## bajaking (Jun 6, 2013)

SchockT said:


> I think the idea of getting "your last boat first" is not very realistic.


So true. You can make all the lists you want and read all the books you want and kick all the tires, but until you've really spent time sailing and living on at least one boat, you'll have no idea what is important to you in a boat. Unless you're one of those people that's easily appeased and doesn't second guess everything, in which case, I'm jealous. 
I suspect the PO is not one of those people, otherwise he/she wouldn't have started this thread.

In some parts of the world, arranged marriage is the norm. Your wife/husband is your first everything. That is your official marriage.
But in some of these places there is a whole system of classified ads and websites for what are called "love marriages". That is where you find what you actually want in a partner after finding your official marriage leaves something to be desired. I think boats are the same.

(apologies in advance to anyone who finds offense in that analogy)


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

bajaking said:


> So true. You can make all the lists you want and read all the books you want and kick all the tires, but until you've really spent time sailing and living on at least one boat, you'll have no idea what is important to you in a boat. Unless you're one of those people that's easily appeased and doesn't second guess everything, in which case, I'm jealous.
> I suspect the PO is not one of those people, otherwise he/she wouldn't have started this thread.
> 
> In most of India, arranged marriage is the norm. Your wife/husband is your first everything. That is your official marriage.
> ...


The boat I own I bought new in 1985. I was 38 yrs old and essentially no sailing experience save for a learn to sail course, and some time on a friend's boat the summer before I bout the 36s. Yes I had read everything I could. Friend was very knowledgeable and advised/mentored me.

I am an architect so perhaps I can look at "spaces/function" differently than the average person. I don't know.

The 36s looked fabulous to me, intimidating for sure... but it turned out to be... in my opinion almost the perfect boat for me. I've sailed it 10's of thousands of miles... coastal, offshore, live aboard and mostly single and short handed (one other).

The boat from the factory lacked many things needed for live aboard and offshore work. I spent 6 years and lots of money upgrading the new boat. And I've spend that amount x 2 or 3 over the years in further upgrades. Of course I've gone through several suits of sails, running rigging, upgraded the blocks and so forth. Added an electric windlass, engine drive refer, forced air diesel heat, several generations of nav instruments/electronics/radios. Added an AP, Re-did the lifelines, added an inner forestay and trysail track, upgraded and added winches, solar, completely re did the 12 electrics - wiring, switches, batts. Did a bunch or joinery upgrades, changed the head, replaced the hatches and all the port lites, upholstery a few times.

The boat had what to me is a very successful design... good bones and all I did was make it fit my sailing / live aboard needs.

I would not do this again... even knowing what I do from over 3 decades of sailing.

Whether it was luck, or skill and hard work... or both... what I did is proof that someone can get the right boat the first time but it STILL NEEDS to be "tailored" to the individual who owns it. Some people accept poorly fit clothes... others don't.
There are many things you can "change" on a boat. Many things you cannot.

You need to be smart enough, talented enough, stupid enough, and persistent enough and of course lucky enough to make it work on the first buy.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

SanderO,
You're just the exception that proves the rule.


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## Interlude (Jun 16, 2016)

Well thought I had said about all that can be said, at least by me but....

I have little experience compared to many on this forum but I have also spent years developing my wants which have been described by myself previously on this thread. The challenge was aligning the needs with wants so they became the same. 

We are two retired teachers thus money spent is held close. We could not afford to make mistakes that cost much treasure as we frankly didn't have much treasure. Our choice of boat when we returned to sailing after over 25 years away was the result of us dreaming about owning one since that fateful day at the Annapolis boat show in 1989, the year we sold our little boat and gave up sailing but not our dreams. Ten years of sailing prior to that day gave us just enough knowledge to know what we wanted, twenty five years of not sailing helped us determine if that was still the case. She was designed to cruise the world, we may not be anymore, however never underestimate the value of a dream achieved. 

I guess we are an exception as well. We have found that not having a large treasure chest has resulted in having to be sure about financial decisions, boats generally are not considered wise financial decisions. This wasn't just about finances, it was about a dream deferred no longer. I can not begin offer anymore practical advice other than what I have already tenured, and as I have said there are far more experienced folks out there than myself, but i can speak to the power of a dream. Make it a big one as little ones are too easily dashed.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

ThereyYouAre...
I think you really want to hook up with an experienced sailing / sailor / mentor as you navigate through the buying process... and beyond maybe. Easier said than done for sure.

You'll want someone who is local to where you and the boat will be kept in the initial period until you actually take off. I think most sailors would be generous with their time and be willing to take this on. Their advice will be based on their boat, their experience and so... but it's better than questions to unknown random posters on www forums.

How do you find such a mentor? Who knows? Perhaps visit some boatyards and marinas and chat up some sailor you run into with salty boats. Maybe join a yacht club is possible.

Good luck!


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## Interlude (Jun 16, 2016)

SanderO said:


> ThereyYouAre...
> I think you really want to hook up with an experienced sailing / sailor / mentor as you navigate through the buying process... and beyond maybe. Easier said than done for sure.
> 
> You'll want someone who is local to where you and the boat will be kept in the initial period until you actually take off. I think most sailors would be generous with their time and be willing to take this on. Their advice will be based on their boat, their experience and so... but it's better than questions to unknown random posters on www forums.
> ...


Agreed! We had just such a fellow who had owned and sailed PSC's, former keel boat instructor and soon to be good friend. He helped me move Interlude from Annapolis to her home, spent an entire season going out with me to help me learn her ways, and still helps when needing an extra set of hands or perspective. He was INSTRUMENTAL in our return to sailing. Books, classes, info on the web are all good resources but that personal touch is invaluable.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

JeffH apparently has helped already. You couldn't find a more qualified mentor!


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

SanderO said:


> ThereyYouAre...
> I think you really want to hook up with an experienced sailing / sailor / mentor as you navigate through the buying process... and beyond maybe. Easier said than done for sure.
> 
> You'll want someone who is local to where you and the boat will be kept in the initial period until you actually take off. I think most sailors would be generous with their time and be willing to take this on. Their advice will be based on their boat, their experience and so... but it's better than questions to unknown random posters on www forums.
> ...


I think you advice is sound and I figured by creating this thread on Sailnet I was getting the benefit of many mentors. I've also been communicating with other members by email. Also a couple of members of my model yacht club which are current or former big boat sailors have indicated they would be willing to come out during the survey and sea trials.

Being in northern Northern Virginia the only club around is the Sailing Club of Washington. I've been a member for two years but didn't get much out of it as they seem to schedule all their activities during the work week and being on the wrong side of the metropolis made the commute a nightmare.

Thanks for the well wishes. The search continues.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

Well in the last few weeks I managed to look at a few more boats.

The first was a Wauqiez Pretorian . https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1984/wauquiez-pretorien-3010914/
The Pretorian was nicely setup with extras like solar panels and a water maker. Generally I really liked the outside of the Pretorian but I thought the interior was pretty dreadful. The seat for the nav statation sticks you in a corner to allow access to the rear stateroom and the u-shaped settee was completely blocked when the leaves of the saloon table were down so that you have to step over the corner of the settee to actually reach it. If I were to buy this boat I think I would ditch at least on of the table leaves if not the entire thing.

Next was a Beneteau 373. OMG did you see the size of that shower!!! It was pretty stunning compared to most of the boats I 've looked at. OTOH it was twice the price and had a dreaded baby fore stay.

I also went to look at a Beneteau First 35s5. https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/beneteau-first-35-s-5-3564736/
There's a lot about this boat I liked, but the interior was in pretty poor condition with a lot of the interior liners just falling off. I don't know if this is specific to this one boat or indicative of beneteaus of that era. The nav desk was also interesting as there wasn't anyplace for charts but there was a water heater in it! There's another newer 35s5 not too far away so I'll try to pay it a visit and see if it's in any better shape.

The search continues...


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## bajaking (Jun 6, 2013)

Still enjoying this thread. 
But ThereYouAre, I just re-read your initial post and re-confused myself: you're now shopping for a "temporary" 35'-ish with 100k budget, with bigger plans & bigger budget to buy a larger "dream" boat in a few years? Is that right? Or do you plan to use these same boat funds for dream boat? (e.g. buy the temporary boat for $40k with hopes to sell it for say $30k in a few years, then shop again with a $90k budget)
Or might the temporary boat actually become the dream boat?


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## bajaking (Jun 6, 2013)

Also, looking at that Bene 35 listing reminded me how many of the euro boats have tiny, tiny v-berths! Smaller than on the 27' I lived aboard, and that drove me nuts. Food for thought. I hope you're actually Goldilocks-ing these boats as you look at them and tossing and turning in all the berths, slouching in all the seats, etc.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

bajaking

You're not the only one that's confused.  Yes, it's likely that I'll have about double the budget in a couple years but it isn't guaranteed. I may find that the first boat becomes the last boat. One of the issues is that the models of boats that I like the best tend to be in pretty poor shape and would require so much sweat equity that I can't see putting that much work into something I would try to sell in a few years. 

That's a good point about Goldilocking these boats. While I have been goldilocking the nav stations I haven't really been trying out the births and the settees. I will moving forward. Thanks for the tip.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if it's been mentioned already, but here's a bit of curve ball choice for spending your money: A Gemini 105mc. It checks most of your boxes (though I'm not sure about a "touch of class") and even gives you one unicorn for beachability.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

Well I was hoping to buy a boat by the end of March or the end of April at the latest. Ooops, so much for that !

The good news is I do have a contract to purchase a boat. A boat I looked at twice in March before it was taken off the market during the lockdown.

I did view a few other boats since March but nothing as nice as this one and there was a nagging voice in my ear telling me to buy it. So after taking another look at it last Saturday I bit the bullet and made an offer on it

Let's see how it met my initial criteria :

Must haves
1. A touch of class (whatever that means) : Check, at least it pushes my buttons.
2. A turn of speed (I'm using a PHRF of 150 for a 35' to make this determination) : PHRF of 111 and S# 2.93 
3. Ability to carry my 5.5'/11' nesting dinghy (I'd rather carry it assembled if possible) : Carrying it nested shouldn't be a problem, Still not sure if I'll be able to carry it assembled.
4. Less than 6' draft : Draft of 4.9'

Should haves in order of importance
1. Comfortable saloon : Reasonably so, great ventilation but would have liked a U shaped settee (no such thing as perfect boat. ( at least not at my budget))
2. Dry head (aka separate shower, this is the one luxury I really don't want to give up) : Nope. It does have a hot water heater so hot showers are still an option, they'll just require a lot of wiping up afterwards.
3. Swim platform / sugar scoop for easy access. (I've seen a few boats with aftermarket folding swim platforms on the transom so I'm flexible on this if a swim platform could be retrofitted. : No, but the flat transom should allow me to figure something out for when I'm going to be anchored out for more than a day.
4. 2nd stateroom : Nope. But I've been led to believe that one's friends never show up anyways no matter what they might tell you now.

I still don't believe in Unicorns so being beachable and dropping the mast with a tabernacle was never really in the cards. I did go visit a Nightwind 35 a few times and really wanted to like it but I just couldn't see it being livable even if I redid the entire interior.

Admittedly the best part of the this boat is that it matched my dinghy 

Thanks to everyone who provided their opinions and especially to Jeff_H who came and looked at the boat with me.

It's a J Boats J/34c










-Hugh


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