# Freedom Mast Pros and cons



## Rustyf (Nov 7, 2007)

I have read a lot about the fact that Freedom sailboats have a main mast that does not have any standing rigging and is made of graphite. What are the pros and cons of this?

Thanks


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

There Carbon Fiber 

I guess the PRO is there simple and the CON is you do lose performance compared to other types of rigs 


A big CON is the cost of a replacement should anything ever happen


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

+Less weight aloft, less things to worry about going bad with rig and stays and chainplates. Ease of handling.
-Loss of some windward performance. Major problem to replace...lightning strike can cause structural failure. Not a great idea for world cruising due to repair difficulty but fine for "normal" use.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

I know of a Freedom that went from NY to Bermuda and back with no problems. However for me, when I look up I like seeing stays and shrouds.


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

Well I personally owned and took a Freedom 45 from NY to Bermuda and back just last year, so I suspect I know something about this. 

We sold our Freedom and moved on to something else, but it had nothing to do with the rig. Frankly, I miss the rig. I LOVED that rig. And after having sailed it for a number of years, I came to be surprised that more cruising boats don't have them.

So, where to begin. Let me start with the expressed concern about having no shrouds, etc. If you have a freestanding rig, you have one thing that can break and go wrong -- the mast breaking. If you have a standard rig, you have literally hundreds of parts that could break, any one of which could cause the rig to come down (and that includes the mast by the way). Being able to look up at rigging doesn't mean you are any safer or that your rig is any more secure. You are just looking up at hundreds of potential failure points, instead of one. And it's not like you have redundancy with a standard rig -- lose one cotter pin, and the whole thing could come down. So, I simply don't buy into the notion that you are more secure with a fully rigged sail plan than a freestanding rig.

In terms of performance, the freestanding rig is VERY forgiving. In gusts, the mast bends, the top of the mainsail twists off, and you dump wind. This has the effect of automatically spilling wind and pressure on the main, which makes the boat stiffer. We were able to hold full sail, comfortably, with apparent winds forward of the beam to 25 knots. After that we would heel more than optimal, and then would take in a reef.

The Freedoms also are very easy to handle, particularly short handed. Most of the larger boats have self tacking jibs, and the boats are main drive, which means that when it's time to tack, just turn the wheel. 

In terms of a negative on performance, you can't adjust the rig. That is, that same mast bend that makes the boat so nice and comfortable to sail means that you get headstay sag when beating, and there's no backstay to adjust to tighten it up. So, she's not as weatherly as some other boats. Don't get me wrong, we made it to weather just fine, and it was very comfortable (the boat is very stiff, and she never EVER pounded), she just isn't the fastest boat to weather.

And one more thing -- no rigging means must more open space on deck. I'm still bumping into the shrouds on our new boat because I'm just not used to them being there, and I'm appreciating more and more the open spaces we had on deck with our Freedom.

As to the point that they are hard to work on or get parts for, that's really not right. There is nothing to "work on." If a problem, develops in terms of a structural crack or something, then you need a new mast. That for sure is a negative (meaning that replacement is much more expensive than a standard mast). I'm sure there must have been rig failures somewhere on these boats, but I am not aware of one.

As to lightening, it is true that carbon fiber is more susceptible to damage, but that's not a guaranty. For instance, our boat actually was hit by lightening (while we were aboard; that's a subject for another thread). Though we had serious damage to the boat, the rig turned out to be fine, according to GMT composites who surveyed the rig for the insurance company. Indeed, it was after this lightening strike that we took the boat to Bermuda and back, experienced some heavy weather, and had no troubles.

Freedoms have sailed all over the place, they are very well built, and that freestanding rig took our boat to Bermuda, the Bahamas, and the Caribbean. I would have no hesitation in sailing these boats offshore.


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## Rustyf (Nov 7, 2007)

Thanks everyone. Your responses have been very helpful. Sounds like a Freedom 36 for a sailor with limited experience who does not intend to race would be an ideal boat for the Pacific Northwest. A topic for another thread.


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

I love my Freedom 28. I sailed it singlehandedly from Houston to NYC last year. They are very good boats, easy, lavish, well behaving, capable.
There is a time bomb within these boats. It is not the masts. It is the balsa cored hull. So make sure you survey hull well, and take care of it.
By the way, Freedoms are not slow boats (for cruisers) and, generally do well in distance racing.


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## sandboy (Dec 22, 2008)

I differ to agree having sailed both if the freedom does go that's the end but if your a half decent sailor and you watch your gear carefully you will see a wire sticking out of a swage at least you have a warning and can do a repair until your next port if a shroud breaks in day light you can go over to the other tack drop your gear at least you still have a mast mind you swept back spreaders are most important as you don't have to worry too much about a back stay cheers guy's


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## Rustyf (Nov 7, 2007)

Sorry Sandboy but I do not understand a single word of your post!!


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

Here sandboy, you can use some of my punctuation marks -- I've got extras  
. . . . . . . . , , ? -


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

CrazyRu said:


> I love my Freedom 28. I sailed it singlehandedly from Houston to NYC last year. They are very good boats, easy, lavish, well behaving, capable.
> There is a time bomb within these boats. It is not the masts. It is the balsa cored hull. So make sure you survey hull well, and take care of it.
> By the way, Freedoms are not slow boats (for cruisers) and, generally do well in distance racing.


I have raced ageist the Freedom I spoke of above. Downwind, you are not going to catch them.


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## sandboy (Dec 22, 2008)

arf145 said:


> Here sandboy, you can use some of my punctuation marks -- I've got extras
> . . . . . . . . , , ? -


If I wanted to be an office person I'd have married one I thought the idea of this site was to share experiences not to pick on someone poor English


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## sandboy (Dec 22, 2008)

*stick to the freedom*

If you havn't understood anything I'm talking about then it would be better to stick to the freedom then with many year's of expierence and not too many mast's falling over you can have a look at my message again cheers Kerry


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## Rustyf (Nov 7, 2007)

Sandboy. Whatever the case you should know that your posts are meaningless if they cannot be understood.


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## sandboy (Dec 22, 2008)

*First person who doesn't understand me sorry*

I have written in many of the forums and threads on this site passing on my many year's of expierence and have been thanked by many on this site what don't you understand maybe I can try to explain as I've never had any trouble before [maybe us OZZIE'S talk a differant lingo we certainly call some parts of yachts by differant names but maily everything is the same] cheers kerry:laugher :laugher


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Dear Mr. Sandboy;

In this letter, I will do my best to make my arguments against Anti-Punctuation Society clear and articulate. I plan to utilize numerous examples and maybe even some occasional humor so as not to strain your patience as I delve into immense detail about how Anti-Punctuation Society is a sore loser. First things first: Anti-Punctuation Society wants to get me thrown in jail. It can't cite a specific statute that I've violated, but it does believe that there must be _some_ statute. This tells me that it has been said that Anti-Punctuation Society, having recently learned a smattering of scientific terminology, uses it to wage a clandestine guerilla war against many basic human rights. I, in turn, aver that I must ask that its pals address the real issues faced by mankind. I know they'll never do that so here's an alternate proposal: They should, at the very least, back off and quit trying to label everyone Anti-Punctuation Society doesn't like as a racist, sexist, fascist, communist, or some equally terrible "-ist". 
My empirically validated theory is that Anti-Punctuation Society's hangers-on are in league with rambunctious apostates who nail people to trees. Sad, but true. And it'll only get worse if Anti-Punctuation Society finds a way to make us less united, less moral, less sensitive, less engaged, and more perversely uppity. Clearly, it's astounding that Anti-Punctuation Society has somehow found a way to work the words "indistinguishableness" and "spinulosodenticulate" into its slogans. However, you may find it even more astounding that it doesn't care about freedom, as it can neither sell it nor put it in the bank. It's just a word to it. 
Something that I have heard repeated several times from various sources-a sort of "tag line" for Anti-Punctuation Society-is, "We should go out and destabilize society. And when we're done with that, we'll all subvert our country's legal system." This is not a direct quote, nor have I heard it from Anti-Punctuation Society's lips directly but several sources have paraphrased the content to me in near-enough ways that I feel fairly confident it actually was said. And to be honest, I have no trouble believing it. Rather than pick out appropriate verbs and nouns, Anti-Punctuation Society pads all of its sentences with extra syllables to grant them an atmosphere of authority. I, on the other hand, prefer to use simple language to express the sentiment that Anti-Punctuation Society presents itself as a disinterested classicist lamenting the infusion of politically motivated methods of pedagogy and analysis into higher education. It is eloquent in its denunciation of modern scholarship, claiming it favors the worst sorts of sneaky fast-buck artists there are. And here we have the ultimate irony because I am tired of hearing or reading that it has answers to everything. You know that that is simply not true. That's all I have time now to write. If you want to get more insight into Anti-Punctuation Society's mentality, though, then study the details of its recommendations. Try to see the big picture: It will obviously amaze you. It will take your breath away. And it will convince you that I am not suggesting government censorship of Anti-Punctuation Society's hideous endeavors.


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

sandboy said:


> I have written in many of the forums and threads on this site passing on my many year's of expierence and have been thanked by many on this site what don't you understand maybe I can try to explain as I've never had any trouble before [maybe us OZZIE'S talk a differant lingo we certainly call some parts of yachts by differant names but maily everything is the same] cheers kerry:laugher :laugher


Lissen, I'm russian, so i kinda understand you, you know, we, language challenged should stick together, after all.
However I can not agree with your push for swept back spreaders. I believe that swapt back spreaders, without other considerations of boat's design, is plainly complicated, compare to freestanding masts.


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## sandboy (Dec 22, 2008)

*Sail Net Not Punctuation Net*



camaraderie said:


> Dear Mr. Sandboy;
> 
> [In this letter, I will do my best ] As I pointed out to you in the first place this is a sailing site I didn't read and won't read anything further from you in fact I deleted it as it had nothing to do with sailing I will also complain to the Sail Net Site about your stupid carry on which has nothing to do with this site as you obviously have way to much time on your hands or maybe your doing something else with your hands other than writing can I suggest you go sailing and stop trying to give people ENGLISH LESSON'S  :laugher uke


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## sandboy (Dec 22, 2008)

*swept back spreaders*



CrazyRu said:


> Lissen, I'm russian, so i kinda understand you, you know, we, language challenged should stick together, after all.
> However I can not agree with your push for swept back spreaders. I believe that swapt back spreaders, without other considerations of boat's design, is plainly complicated, compare to freestanding masts.


All new fully rigged yachts now being built come with swept back spreader's I have done 17 Sydney to Hobart's and i know what I prefer for a start you don't need any runner's [running backstay's ] Its also interesting not one yacht wether in the cruising division or racing division have ever tried to do that race or any other in Australia with a Freedom Mast surly this say's something about them cheers Kerry


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

sandboy said:


> in Australia with a Freedom Mast surly this say's something about them cheers Kerry


Sure, there is no Freedom in Australia, I'm figurative now.
Swept back spreaders are nonsense on slow boat. Unless you have fully blown fast racing craft, swept back spreaders are liability, IMHO


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## sandboy (Dec 22, 2008)

There are freedom yachts being built and imported here but only as cruising yachts as far as swept back spreader's each to there own I'm not going to argue if you think there no good then that's life we have converted Quite a few older cruising yacht's to them over here and have found an increase in performance as you have tried this and found the opposite then there's not a lot more I can say and as far as this thread I've had enough carry on including the English Teacher


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

sandboy said:


> There are freedom yachts being built and imported here but only as cruising yachts as far as swept back spreader's each to there own I'm not going to argue if you think there no good then that's life we have converted Quite a few older cruising yacht's to them over here and have found an increase in performance as you have tried this and found the opposite then there's not a lot more I can say and as far as this thread I've had enough carry on including the English Teacher


I do not believe Freedom sailboats are being built or imported/exported anywhere. The company hasn't made a sailboat in over 10 years, and they now are making only power boats (under the brand name Legacy Yachts). If there is some company out there producing boats called "Freedoms," I don't think it's the same Freedom Yachts built out of Rhode Island which we in the U.S. think of when we think of Freedoms.

Sandboy, you clearly don't like the boats, which is perfectly fine of course, but just be careful about going out on a limb condemning a design that, it appears, you are not all that familiar with.

By the way, in response to one of your earlier points in this thread, I think it is folly to suggest that if you are a "good" sailor you somehow can inspect a rig from the deck to ensure that it doesn't come down. Things happen, and not all problems with rigging are detectable to the naked eye (hence dye tests). There are reasons not to like freestanding rigs, but suggesting they are less safe or less durable than traditional rigs simply is not one of them. In my opinion anyway.

As to the other stuff about punctuation, etc., I'm fairly confident the posters were just teasing you (in particular Cam). Don't sweat the small stuff, and keep contributing on sailing topics!


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

Sorry sandboy, I wasn't picking on your English. Your English is fine anyway. But the stream of conscious run of words with no periods makes it a little harder to get your meaning, that's all.


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## FormerAdministrator (Jan 10, 2000)

Can we give Sandboy a break? 

Since English is not the universal language and since we do not require people type in English when they post on Sailnet I commend Sandboy on doing his best to write in English. 

I do not think that any of us for which English is our first (and possibly) only langauge would appreciate being taken to task for our lack of command of a foreign language especially when we're doing our best to communicate in a foreign langauge on a website. If anything we should try and help Sanboy, not take him to task.

just my humble .02


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Language Tools

I wonder how effective this would be for those whose first language isn't English?


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## FormerAdministrator (Jan 10, 2000)

knothead said:


> Language Tools
> 
> I wonder how effective this would be for those whose first language isn't English?


*que trabajó mucho para mí

*


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

administrator said:


> Can we give Sandboy a break?
> 
> Since English is not the universal language and since we do not require people type in English when they post on Sailnet I commend Sandboy on doing his best to write in English.
> 
> ...


Admin...With respect, I think you have this dead wrong.

Here is the first post Sandboy made which caused my reaction and others:
I differ to agree having sailed both if the freedom does go that's the end but if your a half decent sailor and you watch your gear carefully you will see a wire sticking out of a swage at least you have a warning and can do a repair until your next port if a shroud breaks in day light you can go over to the other tack drop your gear at least you still have a mast mind you swept back spreaders are most important as you don't have to worry too much about a back stay cheers guy's

Please note the lack of ANY sentence structure, no capitals, no punctuation and it would take a translator to figure out what he meant.

Note further that he says he is from OZ...Last time I checked...ENGLISH was not a second language there. He makes no defense that English is not his language which we would all understand. *He simply expects us to put up with lazy, stream of consciousness posting and to figure out what he is saying.* 
Sorry...but I will NOT be giving him a break. Nor will I cause you further grief on this issue since he seems to like to run to mommy if his feelings are hurt.


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## Rustyf (Nov 7, 2007)

I do not believe that this is about language deficiency. Sandboy has made a conscious decision not to use punctuation, proper sentence structure etc. His choice for sure but why should the rest of us be required to decipher his postings to try and make them comprehensible?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Let me redirect this post back to Freedom masts.

I just looked at a Freedom 40 (the blue one in Virginia) as a possible liveaboard/world cruiser. Beautiful boat btw, a pristine example of the make but with hardly any upgrades (no holding tanks, minimal electronics, no shore power or hot water, etc.) so not my first choice in a cruiser but I do like the looks of the freestanding wishbone rig. If I were to find a Freedom that I liked of concern is the replacement of a mast if it were to break. I was wondering if anybody could comment on the replacement costs for one of these carbon fiber masts? Also, would any Freedom owners know what extra amount one would be expected to pay for new wrap around sails?

Regards,

Steve T.


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## tanzertom (Jan 4, 2015)

Rustyf said:


> I do not believe that this is about language deficiency. Sandboy has made a conscious decision not to use punctuation, proper sentence structure etc. His choice for sure but why should the rest of us be required to decipher his postings to try and make them comprehensible?


Agree. It's not the language, it's the grammar and punctuation. Poor grammar, punctuation, and composition show either ignorance or disrespect for the intended reader. Period. :hothead


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## tanzertom (Jan 4, 2015)

SteveT44 said:


> Let me redirect this post back to Freedom masts.
> 
> I just looked at a Freedom 40 (the blue one in Virginia) as a possible liveaboard/world cruiser. Beautiful boat btw, a pristine example of the make but with hardly any upgrades (no holding tanks, minimal electronics, no shore power or hot water, etc.) so not my first choice in a cruiser but I do like the looks of the freestanding wishbone rig. If I were to find a Freedom that I liked of concern is the replacement of a mast if it were to break. I was wondering if anybody could comment on the replacement costs for one of these carbon fiber masts? Also, would any Freedom owners know what extra amount one would be expected to pay for new wrap around sails?
> 
> ...


Steve, I, too, am looking at Freedoms and am finding it difficult to get anything except opinion, in most cases inexperienced opinion. From what I've found, the only real issues with Freedoms are perceived issues due to preconceptions. Owners who have posted seem to love their boats, have had no issues with masts, upwind performance, or anything else. They are just above my budget but I'm reaching the conclusion they are worth the extra money. Close inspection and a test sail will confirm. Have you looked at the Nonsuch boats??


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## tanzertom (Jan 4, 2015)

sandboy said:


> If I wanted to be an office person I'd have married one I thought the idea of this site was to share experiences not to pick on someone poor English


writeasyouwillbutindoingitthewayyoudoyouareonlyshowingdisregardforyourintendedreadersanditsnotthelanguageitsthegrammarpunctuationandcompositionhavesomerespectforyourfellowsailors


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

I think the pros and cons of Freedom carbon fiber masts have been covered. For those viewing this old thread, keep in mind there are some Freedoms out there with freestanding aluminum masts too. 

Both masts on my Freedom were replaced by the PO because of damage from lightning strikes.

As to speed, upwind performance is not the best. Downwind is absolutely fantastic.

As to punctuation, I just choose not to read it if the poster can't at least attempt to use it correctly. There is a frequent female poster here that chooses to misspell words constantly and not use capitalization. Her posts may actually have some value but I'm not interested in reading the ramblings and then trying to translate it into coherency.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I apologize that this was written for an earlier discussion, and is quite long, but I hope that it sheds some light on the topic.

I think that any design concept that is different from the norm will attract some undeservedly negative conjectural opinions from people who have never experienced the actual boats. Some of it may be of value and some may not be very useful. The following is based on my experience with Freedoms. 

As others have noted most of the Freedom owners that I have known liked their boats and found them suitable for their needs (with one rather strong exception below).

From my experience sailing on these boats, and looking at their maintenance issues, its probably a mistake to speak of the Freedoms as if they are all of a similar design and build quality. They are not. Arguably, there are quite a few generations, and each of these are all very different boats. If I had to distinguish them I would list them as:
1. The original series of Herreschoff, Hoyt, and Jay Paris designed ketches. 
2. The Mull designed 'cat-sloops', 
3. Hoyt designed catboats with gum mount spinnakers
4. The out of the ordinary Freedoms such as the cool but idiosyncratic Ron Holland Designed 39 schooner, and the Bill Tripp designed 24 foot or something raceboat.
5. The Pedrick designed last designs. 

I have a fair amount of experience with the original ketches. I would say that the early boat's wrap around sails were something of a failure. They was intended to improve upwind performance and offset the loss of efficiency due to blanketing of the sail by the large diameter mast required in order to achieve a freestanding rig. 

In my experience the leeward side of the sail was always slack and flapping making a lot of noise and removing any theoretic advantage. The wrap around sails for these boats were very expensive to buy and frankly were very hard to get a decent shape out of, in part because some of the adjustments were buried on the mast between the folds of the sail and could not be adjusted when the boat was reaching without bringing the sail in close to the centerline. The added weight of the second layer of cloth gave these sails a terrible shape in light air. 

The later boats with the mast tracks were just plain nicer to sail, and the sails were much easier to hoist and flake. The early track boats reportedly had problems with the tracks coming loose from the mast, which was apparently worked out on later boats. 

My sense from sailing and observing these boats (I have not sailed a 35 or 40, but have sailed on a 28 and 33. I have sailed along side of 40's on a number of occasions and been able to compare their performance to other similar sized boats) is that this generation, except on a reach, was clearly inferior in its sailing ability to similar sized boats of that same era, being slower, not pointing worth a darn, having a miserable rough ride in a chop, being stopped by power boat wakes, and not tacking reliably in light air. The 33 was not all that easy to maneuver under power unless the center board was down. 

The build quality on these early boats were similar to early J-boats, and so like early J's; deck and topside delamination problems are pretty common. I went through a survey on a 33 with a friend and a large percentage of the topsides were delaminated. We conjectured that the water got into the topsides at the scuppers in the bulwarks. 

It is hard to know how well the carbon fiber spars have held up. Perhaps 20 years ago there was a lot of concerns with fatigue in early carbon fiber masts. For years Freedom advertised none had ever failed, but since then I have read of cases where they have failed. 

The Freedom 33 that my friend surveyed had hairline cracking in the mast radiating out of the area near the partners on the one of the masts, the mizzen I believe, but similar cracks were not noted on the main mast. When I was surveying a boat for myself, I looked at a spar from a later Freedom stored in the same yard, and noted similar spider cracks on that mast to those seen on the 33 as well as some spider crack near the track further up the mast. I also exchanged PM’s with a fellow whose insurance company replaced his mast after a lightning strike, since a lightning strike is considered to reduce carbon fiber’s strength dramatically. He was complaining about the very long wait time to get the new spar and was wondering whether he should/could sail with the mast that had been hit in the mean time. 

My favorite Freedoms were the Mull designs. These seemed to have more efficient hullforms and rigs. They point almost as well as any other performance cruising boats of that era, and do very pretty well in non-spinnaker classes. I don't have any real data on this, but the few Mull era owners that I have known say that they have not had any delamination or spar problems. The period of these boats correspond to a period when J-boats were being built a little better as well. 

I really like the smaller of the Hoyt designed cats with gun-mount spins. They seem like really neat boats and the few times that they have showed up on race courses, they seemed to sail well against boats like similar sized Catalinas or Hunters, coming into their own once they were off of the wind. 

I had an acquaintance who owned the bigger version (34 or 35) of the Hoyt Catboats, and who bought her because he wanted to 'go simple', but like myself, never found anything especially simple about sailing these boats. He complained that the vang was an extremely critical adjustment on these boats in a breeze and claimed that he spent a lot of time playing around with it to try to improve sail shape in order to reduce helm in gusty conditions. He sold that boat fairly quickly, in his words,' He never got to like that boat, and decided to buy something easier to sail and more normal.' But that is only one man's opinion. 

By the time that the last freedoms were built, there appeared to be a huge leap in build quality. These boats were impressive in terms of fit and finish. They also seemed to offer wonderful sailing capabilities again seemingly giving up very little on a beat, and really shining when reaching and running non-spinnaker. 

Jeff


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

My post above did not discuss the cost of the carbon fiber spar, but the fellow who had his mast replaced due to the lightning strike said that he had to fight it out with the insurance company to keep his boat from being totaled over the cost of the mast and electronics. My sense is that his boat was probably worth around $50-70K and that the electronics of were maybe $10-15K. That put his mast at maybe $30-50K, and he claimed over a year lead time. My sense is that a conventional rig would be perhaps 2/3rds to half of that cost and a much shorter time to have produced. 

Jeff


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

Great perspectives on the different Freedoms, Jeff H! Thanks for that. I am happy to see this post resurrected. I have had a Mull-designed F-38 (1988 version with the sugar scoop) for two years now and have been making a lot of upgrades because practically everything was original. Only recently have I been able to get it tuned right. Although it sails great wing-on-wing, I am just now trying to fly a spinnaker in a snuffer with lines that lead back to the cockpit. It didn't come with the gunmount spinnaker, but I think an asym in a snuffer is the best approach for offshore and short-handed sailing. I have also been given great advice about the vang, which I could not figure out what to do with when close-hauled. With the vang tightened in completely, I can now fly the main on a higher point of sail and with better VMG than I had achieved before. Everyone who sails with me (including very experienced J-boat racers), really like the boat although they are in a niche market and are not for everyone's taste. That teeny-tiny jib with its "widow maker" camberspar is still a source of frustration in light wind; but overall, it's an easy and fun boat to sail that was well-made, is not as expensive as an Alerion or Nonsuch, and can handle conditions very nicely. And I can't wait for when I am able to sail her to her full potential!


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## tanzertom (Jan 4, 2015)

Many thanks, Jeff! That is exactly the kind of information one needs for making a decision rather than just having an opinion, especially the difference in the designers and production years. From other posts I'd assumed they were all Hoyt. Do you happen to know which years and which models were Mull designs? I can likely find it myself but if you know, I'd appreciate it... info on Freedoms has been kinda hard to find, some of it being my inexperience in navigating these forums. A little easier now since someone advised SailNet search was fubar and to use google combined with sailnet.com. Works. Again, thanks for your time and effort. So, do you do surveys or do you have recommendations for eastern NC area? Given my budget vs what I want, I need to buy cheap and that usually includes budgeting for the expected needed repairs/upgrades. 

Which brings up another subject that seems to be more opinion than fact: replacing standing rigging after 10 years. If this should be on another thread, I'll do that, but one of the attractions of the Freedoms is that there is no standing rigging. Given that most coastal cruiser boats see light use, it would seem to be less of an issue than on, say, blue water boats. Is it use or age that does whatever it is that causes failure? Besides the Freedoms, I'm considering a Niagara 31, a Sea Sprite 34 (in beautiful shape visually), and a Sabre 32, all over 30 years old. Again, thanks... I'll be considerate of your time in the future!


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

tanzertom said:


> Many thanks, Jeff! That is exactly the kind of information one needs for making a decision rather than just having an opinion, especially the difference in the designers and production years. From other posts I'd assumed they were all Hoyt. Do you happen to know which years and which models were Mull designs? I can likely find it myself but if you know, I'd appreciate it... info on Freedoms has been kinda hard to find, some of it being my inexperience in navigating these forums. A little easier now since someone advised SailNet search was fubar and to use google combined with sailnet.com. Works. Again, thanks for your time and effort. So, do you do surveys or do you have recommendations for eastern NC area? Given my budget vs what I want, I need to buy cheap and that usually includes budgeting for the expected needed repairs/upgrades.
> 
> Which brings up another subject that seems to be more opinion than fact: replacing standing rigging after 10 years. If this should be on another thread, I'll do that, but one of the attractions of the Freedoms is that there is no standing rigging. Given that most coastal cruiser boats see light use, it would seem to be less of an issue than on, say, blue water boats. Is it use or age that does whatever it is that causes failure? Besides the Freedoms, I'm considering a Niagara 31, a Sea Sprite 34 (in beautiful shape visually), and a Sabre 32, all over 30 years old. Again, thanks... I'll be considerate of your time in the future!


Here is a listing of the boats by Freedom:

Sailboats built by Freedom Yachts by year on Sailboatdata.com

Some have the designer listed on the boat, others you have to click on the individual boat to get the designer.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

tanzertom said:


> Do you happen to know which years and which models were Mull designs?


It would appear that Gary Mull designed Freedoms from 1985 through 1987. I must admit that I cheated and looked on SailBoatData.com which is a great resource for those kinds of questions.



tanzertom said:


> So, do you do surveys or do you have recommendations for eastern NC area?


I am not a marine surveyor. I am actually an architect (buildings) who has worked in boat yards, and worked as a yacht designer at various times in my youth.

I do know an excellent marine surveyor in North Carolina; 
Robert C. Eberle, 
A.M.S., Eberle Marine Surveys
New Bern, North Carolina
(252) 670-1976.

Mr. Eberle surveyed a boat for me in 2001 and impressed me with his thoroughness, professionalism, and knowledge. I would recommend him without any reservations. My only advise is to be there during the survey. Mr. Eberle is very good at explaining his thoughts and concerns and it is an excellent way to learn more about the boat beyond the simple language of a marine survey report.



tanzertom said:


> Which brings up another subject that seems to be more opinion than fact: replacing standing rigging after 10 years!


This is a topic that I have discussed with a number of riggers, most will tell you that you need to start inspecting your rigging much more carefully after 10 years and suggest a lifespan of 15 years or so for coastal cruisers.

I personally think that replacing standing rigging after 15 years is on the conservative side. My own boat is 32 years old, has a lot of sail area for a 38 footer of her weight, and has had a very hard life, cruising and racing up and down the Atlantic Coast including a reportedly tough Halifax race when she was probably pretty close to 20 years old.

She still had her original standing rigging when I bought her in 2001. As a precaution, when the boat was 25 years old I chose to replace all of the standing rigging since I had the mast down for other work. In terms of cost, my 38 foot boat has a pretty simple rig. Roughly seven years ago, I had a reputable rigger in Annapolis replace all of the boat's standing rigging for a little over $1,200.00 including new turnbuckles. The cost to pull the mast and re-step it was something like $350.00.

Obviously things are more expensive today, and my boat has a very simple rig so they only had to replace the fractional forestay, one pair of lower shrouds, one pair of fractional upper shrouds, the backstay, backstay spreader plate, and the cascade falls for the backstay adjuster. Only the uppers and lowers have turnbuckles. The forestay adjustment is part of the roller-furler.

Jeff


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## tanzertom (Jan 4, 2015)

Some have the designer listed on the boat, others you have to click on the individual boat to get the designer.[/quote]

Thanks. I googled "mull designed freedom yachts" and found complete list of models and years. Also found the sailnet threads on standing rigging. Seems age is not as much an issue as fatigue cycles. That's more rational than a arbitrary time period with no consideration for use. Not too sure of the test procedures, but then I'm a skeptic until I understand stuff :hammer


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> My post above did not discuss the cost of the carbon fiber spar, but the fellow who had his mast replaced due to the lightning strike said that he had to fight it out with the insurance company to keep his boat from being totaled over the cost of the mast and electronics. My sense is that his boat was probably worth around $50-70K and that the electronics of were maybe $10-15K. That put his mast at maybe $30-50K, and he claimed over a year lead time. My sense is that a conventional rig would be perhaps 2/3rds to half of that cost and a much shorter time to have produced.
> 
> Jeff


Was that mast replaced by Freedom/TPI or GMT? Or another source? My impression from speaking at length with GMT before purchasing my boat was that replacement masts for Freedoms could be had for much less than the numbers you are suggesting. If your numbers are accurate, I will soon be buying Freedoms to part out...


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

Standing rigging is not an issue though you should check the forestay at the swage fitting because the cambarspar puts funky stresses at the point the wire goes into the fitting. My forestay broke on a sail in 22-knot winds and we just kept sailing. The gooseneck is also under-engineered and failed on my boat. I plan to get one machined that's more robust for offshore sailing. In coastal areas and if you're careful, it's probably OK. The reason for the failure is that the aluminum was getting chewed up when the boom had been brought back farther than 90 degrees, and it's fairly weak at the attachment point to the mast. Bad mojo forces are created if the boom is ever dropped without having the lazy jacks or a solid vang holding it up. I think some people have rigged a back stay, but I don't know how that would work without it shredding the main sail. Plus, if you want a boat where you can use a backstay, the Freedom is probably not the type of boat you should get  I also have a stopper knot in the main sheet so the boom will only go so far, but not too far.


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

[/quote] Thanks. I googled "mull designed freedom yachts" and found complete list of models and years.[/QUOTE]

I'm skeptical about the info you will find in a search, which has long been an issue of confusion for me. My boat's HIN and documentation state that it is technically an F-36. I am nearly certain that it was also built by Mull (though I can't recall how I determined that), yet sailboatdata.com says Mull didn't start building them till '89. I've also seen other references that the Freedom's sugar scoop wasn't built until the '90s and I certainly know that's incorrect...


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

I heard that some of the 38s were retrofitted 36's


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Gary Mull did not build any boats. He designed boats.


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

bobperry said:


> Gary Mull did not build any boats. He designed boats.


So right. TPI built my boat.


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## drosymor (Aug 6, 2014)

A few months ago I took ownership of a Freedom 40 Cat ketch #34 1979. Mine has aluminum masts/ The PO replaced the wishbones with regular booms and mast tracks. Going to weather she really heels in strong gusts. She also makes a fair bit of leeway. I can't put that big centerboard down in Galveston Bay. Of course this why she doesn't point worth a damn either. Since I'm not racing, I just sail anywhere from DDW to a close reach. She is very easy to sail and can (has) taken a full standing gybe without any problem. I suspect the fact that the mast is flexible cushions the lateral forces. I do find having no house rails or shrouds to grab onto very disconcerting. Hence, permanent jacklines I must be very lucky, my surveyor found no signs of delamination or stress fractures in either the deck or hull.

Paul


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## drosymor (Aug 6, 2014)

Quick follow up. The thing I really don't like about the boat is the hydraulic steering. Lock to lock is 3 1/2 turns and their is no feel at all. You have to use the compass heading to work out how much weather helm you actually have. I'm tempted to rip the whole mess out and get a nice long tiller. But then, as in another thread, where would I put my instruments.

Paul


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

The OP asked about "graphite" masts on the Freedom's. I'm surprised no one pointed out there is no such thing. The FRP masts on the Freedoms were carbon fiber and epoxy.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

boatpoker said:


> The OP asked about "graphite" masts on the Freedom's. I'm surprised no one pointed out there is no such thing. The FRP masts on the Freedoms were carbon fiber and epoxy.


I believe that one of the very next posts pointed out that they are carbon fiber not graphite. Depending who you believe, rumor had it that the early spars were carbon and polyester rather than carbon and epoxy.

Have you surveyed any Freedoms and if so, what did you find?

Jeff


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## tanzertom (Jan 4, 2015)

I have zero experience with ketches. Seems most Freedoms for sale are ketches. Coincidence? I personally don't care for how they look but would consider if there are any real advantages and few disadvantages. From comments the ketches appear easier to handle vis a vis reducing sail... sure doesn't make sense in looking at those two big sails, but I guess it's easier than changing head sails on a sloop and certainly reduces need for head sail inventory. Visually they don't seem like windward performance would be as good as a sloop. Guess a little research on sailing ketches vs sloops is in order as the availability and prices of Freedom warrant consideration. Any comments from those with experience on both??


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## tanzertom (Jan 4, 2015)

drosymor said:


> A few months ago I took ownership of a Freedom 40 Cat ketch #34 1979. Mine has aluminum masts/ The PO replaced the wishbones with regular booms and mast tracks. Going to weather she really heels in strong gusts. She also makes a fair bit of leeway. I can't put that big centerboard down in Galveston Bay. Of course this why she doesn't point worth a damn either. Since I'm not racing, I just sail anywhere from DDW to a close reach. She is very easy to sail and can (has) taken a full standing gybe without any problem. I suspect the fact that the mast is flexible cushions the lateral forces. I do find having no house rails or shrouds to grab onto very disconcerting. Hence, permanent jacklines I must be very lucky, my surveyor found no signs of delamination or stress fractures in either the deck or hull.
> 
> Paul


A '79 and no delamination etc. is encouraging. Actually, the more owner comments I read the more I'm impressed with the Freedoms. Problems and negatives usually get the most play, but I find very little of these from actual users. Most negatives are from those with opinions but no actual experience with the boats. Jeff_H mentions lighting damaged masts on a friend's boat and the cost of replacing one is kinda scary. On the other hand, replacing standing rigging every 10 years as recommend by many is a moot point and a major savings in maintenance. Would appreciate any comment you have on your experience on sailing your ketch vs any sloop experience you have.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> I believe that one of the very next posts pointed out that they are carbon fiber not graphite. Depending who you believe, rumor had it that the early spars were carbon and polyester rather than carbon and epoxy.
> 
> Have you surveyed any Freedoms and if so, what did you find?
> 
> Jeff


I have not surveyed any Freedoms but I have done mast inspections on two of them with carbon masts (all 4 masts were epoxy) and have other carbon mast experience. It would take a pretty strong argument to convince me that polyester would be used in this application.
I found no issues with the carbon masts but these were both Great Lakes boats and very little used. I would not under any circumstances buy a carbon mast without an IR scan. IR scanning is much more difficult than the average surveyor with a $1k camera will admit but this is one of the rare circumstances where a person with just moderate experience and education should be able to pick up flaws.


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## drosymor (Aug 6, 2014)

Tom, I owned a Tanzer 26 and raced on Sharks. Both of these pointed much better than my F40. Its tough to get the F40 to point higher than 50 degrees. The sails have to be properly balanced for the wind. At 15 kn I have a full main and two reefs in the mizzen. Hoyt says he sails his F40 in 50 kn with an unreefed main. My Tanzer was very sensitive and tried to broach in any gusts, particularly in quartering seas. the F40 is does not. The F40 heels significantly in gusts when sailing to weather. However I don' have to worry about her dipping her spreaders. I cannot imagine her going lee rail under except in violent conditions. My Tanzer would bury the lee rail at the drop of a hat. With two sails the same size and shape, the mainmast at the foredeck and the mizzen just abaft the beam, she handles very differently than your normal rigs, but is very easy to sail. Heaving to is quite different, douse the main, harden the mizzen and lash the wheel hard over. Everything is very simple. She carries more weight aloft with her thick aluminum masts than do the carbon fibre masts or than a regular rig. Hope that helps. PM me if you have any detailed questions I can help you with. Oh, mine is the after cockpit version.


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## tanzertom (Jan 4, 2015)

drosymor said:


> Tom, I owned a Tanzer 26 and raced on Sharks. Both of these pointed much better than my F40. Its tough to get the F40 to point higher than 50 degrees. The sails have to be properly balanced for the wind. At 15 kn I have a full main and two reefs in the mizzen. Hoyt says he sails his F40 in 50 kn with an unreefed main. My Tanzer was very sensitive and tried to broach in any gusts, particularly in quartering seas. the F40 is does not. The F40 heels significantly in gusts when sailing to weather. However I don' have to worry about her dipping her spreaders. I cannot imagine her going lee rail under except in violent conditions. My Tanzer would bury the lee rail at the drop of a hat. With two sails the same size and shape, the mainmast at the foredeck and the mizzen just abaft the beam, she handles very differently than your normal rigs, but is very easy to sail. Heaving to is quite different, douse the main, harden the mizzen and lash the wheel hard over. Everything is very simple. She carries more weight aloft with her thick aluminum masts than do the carbon fibre masts or than a regular rig. Hope that helps. PM me if you have any detailed questions I can help you with. Oh, mine is the after cockpit version.


Thanks, Drosymor. My Tanzer did not seem that sensitive with main and working jib. As I added larger head sails that changed. But I was coming off sailing a NACRA 5.2 and Isotope catamarans so the Tanzer took some getting used to. It did seem to outpoint most of what I ran into on Barnegat Bay in NJ. I've had NO experience with ketches. Do you consider the freedom ketches a good choice for being easy to handle by a 66 year old single handing in bay and close in coastal NC/SC? The 28s seem to be more available, lower in price, and the space below not at issue. Somehow, those two "main" sails just look like they'd be harder to handle and horrible on a beat... just a completely unfounded perception on my part???


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

tanzertom said:


> Do you consider the freedom ketches a good choice for being easy to handle by a 66 year old single handing in bay and close in coastal NC/SC? The 28s seem to be more available, lower in price, and the space below not at issue. Somehow, those two "main" sails just look like they'd be harder to handle and horrible on a beat... just a completely unfounded perception on my part???


I don't think that "they'd be harder to handle and horrible on a beat" is an unfounded perception on your part. Based on my experience with the Freedom 28's, they don't point worth a darn, much worse than the bigger Freedom Ketches, and they are no easier to handle than a conventional sloop. In in some ways they are harder to handle, since you need to go all the way to the bow to reef or adjust the sail shape on mainsail (and there are no handholds past the center of the cabintop or shrouds to hold onto)

The other hard part is that you can't just reef one sail at a time, and maintain a reasonably balanced helm. Adjusting the centerboard helps a little, since you can partially raise and lower it to help balance the helm, but in my experience, you end up reefing both sails at comparatively low windspeeds, especially in gusty conditions. My experience in a building breeze is that you go from being overpowered and struggling with the helm, to suddenly not having enough sail area to sail in the breeze at which you needed to reef.

The small Freedom ketches are pretty crumby boats on all counts. If you are bent on having a Freedom in this general size range I would suggest that you try to find either a Freedom 29 (with what Hoyt called a cat-sloop rig) or one of the Mull designed Freedom 28 or 30's. You might also consider simply getting a conventional ketch which can be pretty easy to handle and should point better than the small Freedom ketches, or better yet as small fractionally rigged sloop, which should point very well and be easier to handle.

The other issue I hated with the Freedom 28 was that the position of the mast at the very bow of the boat made anchor handling stunningly difficult for a 28 footer, especially as compared to the 28 foot fractionally rigged sloop that I owned at the time.

Jeff


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## tanzertom (Jan 4, 2015)

Jeff_H said:


> I don't think that "they'd be harder to handle and horrible on a beat" is an unfounded perception on your part. Based on my experience with the Freedom 28's, they don't point worth a darn, much worse than the bigger Freedom Ketches, and they are no easier to handle than a conventional sloop. In in some ways they are harder to handle, since you need to go all the way to the bow to reef or adjust the sail shape on mainsail (and there are no handholds past the center of the cabintop or shrouds to hold onto)
> 
> The other hard part is that you can't just reef one sail at a time, and maintain a reasonably balanced helm. Adjusting the centerboard helps a little, since you can partially raise and lower it to help balance the helm, but in my experience, you end up reefing both sails at comparatively low windspeeds, especially in gusty conditions. My experience in a building breeze is that you go from being overpowered and struggling with the helm, to suddenly not having enough sail area to sail in the breeze at which you needed to reef.
> 
> ...


Good to have one's perceptions confirmed by someone with more experience. Thanks! Also, darn good point on the anchor handling  My major interest in Freedoms are ease of single handing and maneuverability in close quarters and all seem to think they are reasonably well built. The F32 or F38 seemed to offer that with the F38s being a little above my budget unless in spectacular condition. There are more F28s available at much cheaper prices, thus my temporary interest. Not any more.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

When I was searching for my boat, I was seriously looking at the Freedoms... Made an offer on a 36, and was seriously interested in a 35..

Of all of them, my favorite was the 35.... Have you looked at those?

(I mean the David Pedrick designed Freedom 35 sloop, not the cat ketch)


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## drosymor (Aug 6, 2014)

I agree with Jeff_H on that a 28' cat ketch would be horrible for many reasons. A straight cat would be much better. I also agree that the larger Freedoms would point better I am 77. I have not single handed her yet but that is docking fear. Tacking is easy, just put the helm over, set new course, trim as necessary. No jib sheets to handle no traveler adjustments, no stays to adjust. As said on another thread, all the crew needs to worry about is moving their beer to windward. There are only 2 winches, main sheet and mizzen sheet. . I have an electric mainsheet winch so that is easy to handle. I need a bigger winch for the mizzen, trimming that is damn hard work. I do not agree with Jeff_H on reefing both sails in parallel. I would reduce the mizzen, all the way to fully doused before putting more than one reef in the main. Getting to the mainmast in anything but smooth water is daunting. Jacklines are essential. Or you could have the reefing lies rum aft to the cockpit. The estimate I got for that was around $2500 but it involved lots of turning blocks, padeyes and jam cleats. Generally speaking I don' think I' like a ketch at anything less than 35'. Have you looked at the Nonsuch 33 or 36?

Paul


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## Ray G. (Feb 7, 2015)

I just sold a 1993 45 CC after owning her for eight years. This was do to a lifestyle change. She was the best boat I ever owned. Easy to single hand, solid and stable in any sea conditions. Never a concern with the rig and never a problem with sail handling. Sailed her in 25 to 30 without a reef and jib up and you never have to be concerned with an unexpected jibe. Though my time is limited I am buying another boat and I have settled on a Freedom 35. After my experience with my 45,and looking into other boats, I would never buy anything but another Freedom. The 35 has the best interior layout for it's size, high quality build, easily handled and fast. And for those who criticize the free standing rig, how many jet liners do you see with wires holding the wings to the plane. 
Ray G.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

How many jetliners have you seen with cloth wings? Jetliners vary their wing shape by adjusting their flaps, whereas sails change their camber in part by varying controlling mast bend.


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## Ray G. (Feb 7, 2015)

May I suggest reading an article by Spongberg Yacht Design on mast differences to learn of the advantages of a free standing rig. I think you might be supprised by the reasons why they are a better performing design. 
Ray G.


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## tiller1967 (Oct 8, 2018)

Can anyone tell me the best way to get the sails up on the Freedom 28 with the wrap around sails and the wish bone booms?


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## Calmwater (Aug 5, 2018)

I see this trail goes back for more than 3 years but hope the people are still interested in the subject. I have considered Moody 42CC and Beneteau 44CC (Bruce Farr design) and almost closed on one until I have seen the Freedom 45CC... 

So I'm now at square one with my scoring spreadsheet (please don't laugh... ) for my perfect cruiser (Iv'e been a racer all my life and still plan to race on my Farr 40 - but for family and friends I need a cruiser...).

In a perspective of 3-4 more years and with all the fantastic new boats and designs out there what would you say on the Freedom 45CC?

My main concern is the speed and ease of a short handed couple with hoisting, reefing and bringing down the mainsail with the changing conditions we have in New England, especially as I would like to plan on frequent few hours sailing (in extended season here - hence the size and the CC preference) in addition to less frequent weekend and week-two cruising. 

Thanks!


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## Annwn (Nov 4, 2018)

Calmwater said:


> So I'm now at square one with my scoring spreadsheet (please don't laugh... ) for my perfect cruiser


I'm not laughing - it's a good way to evaluate models. Of course, after that you have to go and actually get a feel for the boat - I'm guessing that may cinch it.

As for the Freedom's - they're on my list too for all the good reasons mentioned here.


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## overthehorizon (Apr 7, 2018)

I sailed on a Freedom, 40something, from Rhode Island to the eastern Caribbean. The boat was comfortable but I missed the standing rigging I had become so used to for steadying myself while working on the decks of traditionally rigged boats. Also, the way the mast top whipped around in large waves was worrying and had to have created momentum which would negatively effect boat performance. I have no calibrated instrumentation to document this, only casual observation. It seemed, fatigue of some sort would have to eventually affect that mast. I got to know a person who worked at the Freedom factory in Portsmouth, Rhode Island. He said that Freedom did have several ocean crossing boats break their mast, for no apparent reason. There was a new directive that if an owner drilled a hole in a carbon mast for any reason, that would void the warranty. I think, in a storm, I would much prefer a mast that does not whip around like a noodle antenna.


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## scottdickens (Apr 24, 2019)

As a Freedom 40/40 former owner, I loved the stayless rig. I found the boat to be fast, stiff, comfortable. With the selftacking cambered jib, tacking up a channel is a breeze; in my limited racing she was consistently among the fastest boats out there. My next boat will also have a standing rig. We lived aboard for 2 1/2 years, sailing our 40/40 from Florida, through the Bahamas, all of the Eastern Caribbean, and back to Florida. Search for articles on freestanding masts by Eric Sponberg.


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## Calmwater (Aug 5, 2018)

Good to return to this discussion. I wonder if one can miss the boat he didn't choose... ?. I do miss the simplicity of the Freedom 45CC I was looking at for quite awhile until a few weeks ago when finally closed on a Contest 43 CC. My deal breaker was the inability to have a good furling main setup on the Freedom. I've seen few with a boom furling main and non of the owners was happy with it.

The Contest has a full standing rig setup of a cutter cruiser with all the three sails fully furled/reefed out of the cockpit plus a socked asymmetrical - nothing really simple up there although very well built by all means.

I'm still a big advocate of the Freedoms, especially for those willing to go out to the mast for the main business. I have enough of it on my Farr 40 racer... ? or maybe I'm just too spoiled now.



scottdickens said:


> As a Freedom 40/40 former owner, I loved the stayless rig. I found the boat to be fast, stiff, comfortable. With the selftacking cambered jib, tacking up a channel is a breeze; in my limited racing she was consistently among the fastest boats out there. My next boat will also have a standing rig. We lived aboard for 2 1/2 years, sailing our 40/40 from Florida, through the Bahamas, all of the Eastern Caribbean, and back to Florida. Search for articles on freestanding masts by Eric Sponberg.


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