# When a sailmaker claims they make sails but don't.*



## TackJibe (Dec 14, 2011)

The recent post regarding a certain sail seller going out of business brings to light an on going trend of Internet entrepenuers passing themselves off as bona-fide, scissors-in their-hands sailmakers. Just this year I noticed three more.

They're sailsmen operating salelofts. 

They've never built sails, don't own sewing machines and never clicked "save" on a sail design program.

Armed with a fancy website packed with lots of pictures, words and buy now buttons these sailsmen con the consumer into believing they're the real deal.

Their products come from the far east: China Sail Factory and Rolly Tasker Sails in Thailand. 

Some of these salelofts operate in home-offices far away from the water and employ no one. They claim success with years of experience and post fake letters from customers.

If that fancy website doesn't personally name the owners or operators, have pictures of their loft or a page dedicated to repairing sails then go elsewhere.

Ask questions, get referrals and google their address. 

Don't be deceived.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I purchased a jib sail from a sailmaker in Havre de Grace, MD about 7 years ago. While they had a full loft and sail making shop, they told me right up front that they no longer made sails because it was not cost efficient. Instead, they were essentially a middle man, or broker if you may, for a company in Southeast Asia. They did the measurements, the sail was perfect, incredibly well constructed, top quality materials, and reasonably priced. They delivered the sail when they said they would, and they gave me a written guarantee. They made money, I saved money, the manufacturer made money, the shipping company made money, and everyone involved was happy. What more could you ask for.

Gary


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

I suppose the OP's complaint is that they aren't up front about what they really are. I can appreciate that. 

But, as long as the U.S. is dumb enough to let China kick our behinds, it's pretty tough for me to pass up a good price on an asian sail at a much better price. 

Just so long as I can find an American to do the repairs for me.


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## mdbee (May 2, 2007)

I found it interesting that a certain sail maker (they may be out of business) advertised that their sails weren't made in Asia. Which gave me the impression that they were made in the US. They didn't disclose where they were actually made.

I ran across a posting that they admitted the sails were made in Barbados. Not sure what the difference is. Asia / South America?


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

mdbee said:


> I found it interesting that a certain sail maker (they may be out of business) advertised that their sails weren't made in Asia. Which gave me the impression that they were made in the US. They didn't disclose where they were actually made.
> 
> I ran across a posting that they admitted the sails were made in Barbados. Not sure what the difference is. Asia / South America?


Did you mean the difference between Asia and a British owned Caribbean Island? Barbados is not in South America.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

We replaced the genoa and main in the last year. We did quite a bit of research when we selected the sails. It is true that most sails are constructed offshore and it is true that many sailmakers are salesmen, Thus, many sailmakers will deliberately make the construction sound like a black art and way too technical for us to understand. With that in mind, most "normal" sails are relatively set in their dimensions and the person spec'ing the sail has to do very little. And we as consumers probably really don't know what a really well fit and shaped sail looks like anyway, unless we race. 

I know for a fact that Evolution Sails (Easton, MD) and Mac Sails are US made. When we had our main built by Evolution, I visited the loft and watched as they installed the reef points, cunningham, etc. At the time, they were laminating a new race sail and it's a cool process. Evolution's prices were only a little more than an offshore sail but we did a lot to change sand fit the sail that I would not have been able to do as easily mail-order.

IMO, I don't care if a sail is stitched in the US. The fabric is US made and that's were the technology is. But with that said, the service from a loft that actually designed and built the sail is worth a few extra $.


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## R. Broomhall (Sep 28, 2018)

TackJibe said:


> The recent post regarding a certain sail seller going out of business brings to light an on going trend of Internet entrepenuers passing themselves off as bona-fide, scissors-in their-hands sailmakers. Just this year I noticed three more.
> 
> They're sailsmen operating salelofts.
> 
> ...


I'm a manufacturing Sailmaker but I no longer have a loft big enough to make large sails so I design them and have them made in Sri Lanka or until recently China Sail Factory.
China Sail Factory has turned out to be appalling, unethical and incompetent.
I ordered a mainsail but the sail they sent was clearly the wrong sail too long and too tall?? Initially they offered to replace it but 5 months on they won't even respond to an email.
So if you choose a loft that uses China Sail Factory be VERY careful you are likely to loose you money (or at least the loft you choose will)


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

This is a disturbing development driven by profit. I suggest you find a local loft where the sailmaker measures and makes your sails and stands behind their work. This may cost more than the offshore outsourced sails. Too many unknowables about sending work overseas to low wage countries.

Your sail should last a number of years... unless perhaps you race and put them through a lot of stress. When one figures out what they cost amortized over their life and what the difference in an outsourced sail is it's simply not very much money and not worth the problems that may ensue.

Support US workers!


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## R. Broomhall (Sep 28, 2018)

SanderO said:


> This is a disturbing development driven by profit. I suggest you find a local loft where the sailmaker measures and makes your sails and stands behind their work. This may cost more than the offshore outsourced sails. Too many unknowables about sending work overseas to low wage countries.
> 
> Your sail should last a number of years... unless perhaps you race and put them through a lot of stress. When one figures out what they cost amortized over their life and what the difference in an outsourced sail is it's simply not very much money and not worth the problems that may ensue.
> 
> Support US workers!


I'm sure you are correct. I'm in Australia and have manufactured for over 40 years but these days I struggle with larger sails and whilst I do my own designs I get them made in Sri Lanka (Aqua Dynamics) I did try China Sail Factory but as I said they let me down big time.
As an option it makes sense but I agree there are NON Sailmakers in Australia doing exactly what you are complaining about. Most wouldn't know a good sail from a horse!


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

While this is a revival of a 7 year old thread, the comments by first-poster R.Broomhall about China Sail Factory are enlightening. I suspect the majority of sails today are made offshore, even by the "major" lofts. Does show you have to be careful who you place your order with.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Siamese said:


> Just so long as I can find an American to do the repairs for me.


Then I highly recommend you do not sail to the Eastern Caribbean, where the local sailmakers not only make their own sails but do mighty fine repairs, at a very fair price. 
Certainly better than the UK tape drive sails that came on this boat and were made in NY by Americans.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'll have to ask where Quantum sails are made. That's my go-to for replacement this year. Not the cheapest, but I've never heard a single complaint about them.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Zombie thread indeed however...

I recently went through this when I found the loft that last made the sails for my boat. I actually spoke to the man who made them and complimented him on his fine work asking if he could make me another identical set and the answer was no. They had been bought out by a national concern who has all their sails made offshore and the new stuff comes no where close to the level of workmanship when they made them on-site. They could have them made and they would fit my boat but would not be as expertly made as the ones that had been made previously by their loft for the prior owner of my boat. He found this difficult because so many of their long time customers would call with the same request as mine wanting another set just as nice as the previous one. Even though he still had the equipment which he personally owned the main office would not let him do any special orders on-site and he had to sign a non-compete so he could not make them on his own.

You can only expect so much from a off-shore sweat shop where they are timed to the second for every task.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Minnewaska said:


> I'll have to ask where Quantum sails are made. That's my go-to for replacement this year. Not the cheapest, but I've never heard a single complaint about them.


As far as I know, by and large all of Quantum's sails are made in Asia. I am not sure that this is still the same at North, but that was true when I was still buying sails from North. To a great extent, like most big global companies, cost of the manufacturing facilities and the efficiencies of scale has led to these larger companies having a single plant somewhere in the world which produces all or most of their products.

(The rest of this is not aimed at Minne's quote)

But reading this thread there is a difference between companies like Quantum and North versus the so-called offshore brands, and there is a big difference between people who understand sailmaking and who simply sell sails. In term of the bigger companies, these companies have proprietary access to far more sophisticated testing and computer simulation data than brands who are not doing leading edge designs.

While cruisers think that they don't need this level of technology, they are in part mistaken. The filter down from the bleeding edge research is much better stress mapping and flying shape projections. This allows the fiber orientation to be more precisely set so that stretch is minimized and the life of the sail is extended. A cruiser might not care all that much about any performance increase that may result from a better flying shape, but they still benefit from having a smaller heel angle and less leeway.

But it goes beyond design. The more sophisticated companies have custom specified fabrics and also run every piece of fabric through an optical scanner which can detect and reject individual pieces of fabric with defects that would not be visible to the human eye. Those rejected panels go back to the manufacturer and are resold to the less expensive lofts.

In reality I have not seen an improvement or a decrease in the workmanship on sails over my 50 plus years of sailing. There have always been some pretty junky sailmakers making pretty junky sails and there have always been lofts producing higher quality products. Its true that sails used to have some very labor intensive hand-sewn details, and way more hand stitching than today. To me that is is not a sign of workmanship, just a matter of different means and methods of accomplishing the same goal.

People point at the absence of items like folded seams as showing that sailmakers are cutting corners and producing inferior product. It was true that in the old days, more frequently sails were made with folded seams and that if so ordered sails could be routinely made with the same style folded seams that were used on cotton sails. There are reasons that dacron or film sails no longer need and normally don't come with folded seams. They still can be ordered that way for a price, but unless they are ordered that way, and there is a special use that would require that, its not done. The reasons are more about improvements in materials rather than cost.

And lastly, while the bigger company's sails may no longer be made at the loft around the corner, that does not mean that you are not getting the same level of service. Around here, Quantum comes out and measures the boat very carefully, taking measurements that are even not on the forms that the overseas companies rely on. At least in my case, I have worked with a particular sailmaker at Quantum. He has made a point of sailing on my boat and understanding how I sail her. In modeling the sails, they were able to tweak the design to achieve sails that are uniquely suited to my sailing style, venue, and the way I sail my boat. After the sails were delivered, that sailmaker made a point of sailing with me and looking at the sails in use and coaching me on how to get the most out of those sails, as well as checking out the older sails that they made and commenting on their condition and making tuning and adjustment recommendations to improve them as well.

In my mind, I am not sure I care where the sails are actually made, who sits behind the computer cutter, and who sits at the sewing machines. What I do care about is having a local loft that can carefully measure, tweak a design, provide a quality product, stand behind their product, and service my sails as they age without gouging me.

Jeff


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

In a similar thead over on the Cruising Forum, it was posted that China Sail Factory has shut down. Hopefully no one here has ordered a sail from one of the lofts that have been getting their product there. FX Sails is one loft I know that used them.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

R. Broomhall said:


> I'm sure you are correct. I'm in Australia and have manufactured for over 40 years but these days I struggle with larger sails and whilst I do my own designs I get them made in Sri Lanka (Aqua Dynamics) I did try China Sail Factory but as I said they let me down big time.
> As an option it makes sense but I agree there are NON Sailmakers in Australia doing exactly what you are complaining about. Most wouldn't know a good sail from a horse!


They certainly do know the difference between a good sail and a horse! In the sails off-season, they sell horses. Their horses are just as good as their sails.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> As far as I know, by and large all of Quantum's sails are made in Asia. I am not sure that this is still the same at North, but that was true when I was still buying sails from North. To a great extent, like most big global companies, cost of the manufacturing facilities and the efficiencies of scale has led to these larger companies having a single plant somewhere in the world which produces all or most of their products.
> 
> (The rest of this is not aimed at Minne's quote)
> 
> ...


My Quantum main (3 years old ) was made in South Africa. I am m still impressed by it's quality. Everything you said I found true with my sailmaker at Quantum. I watch on here people extol the mail order sailhouse and shake my head. Yes they are cheaper than Quantum, but initial price is not necessarily the true cost over years. And the customer service aspect .....what dollar amount is that worth.


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