# Atomic 4 - Water in Cylinders!!!



## wbgent (Apr 6, 2003)

After sitting idle for about 2 months, I tried to start my engine. I cranked too long and the water from my raw water cooling system apparently backed up. There was water spitting out of the flame arrestor when I cranked the engine and there is water in the carb. I pulled the plugs, and there is water in the cylinders. Not pooling, but it''s definitely water. Now, I think my immediate concern should be to preserve the cylinders and try and plecude any more damage - before I troubleshoot why the engine wouldn''t start. Right? Here''s what I''m doing:

1. Put a couple of tablespoons of Marvel Mystery Oil in each cylinder. I will let that soak while:

2. I drain the gas tank and fuel lines. Initial investigation revealed no water in the fuel filter resevoir, but the fuel didn''t smell as strong as it should have.

3. Crank the engine w/ the plugs out to blow the MMO and any residual water out of the cylinders.

4. Replace new plugs.

5. Fire the engine while spraying a squirt of starter fluid into the carb and the intake shut. If it starts, then open intake.

Am I missing anything here? Does the water spitting out of the flame arrestor indicate a bad head gasket/ head leak?? HELP!!!

Thanks!
Will


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## pirateofcapeann (Aug 27, 2002)

Yup, well, that''s about as classic a sign of a blown head gasket as there ever was! The reason it wouldn''t start is because you weren''t getting any compression. This could be a symptom of other problems too like a stuck valve, a cracked head or block or a broken timing chain even, unlikely but possible especially if you live in a northern climate and didn''t winterize the engine. The first step is to do a compression check. You''ve done well to pour some mystery oil in the cylinders. Don''t be bashful with it and turn the engine over by hand a couple of times after you pour it in.

Pi


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## wbgent (Apr 6, 2003)

Thanks a million! I live in Hawaii - no winterization! I guess I''ve got to pull the head! Anything to watch out for there?

Will


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## pirateofcapeann (Aug 27, 2002)

I strongly recommend you source out a shop manual if you''re planning to do the job yourself. That will answer all of the questions you''ll have on how to go about the job and tools required as well as bolt torque, patterns and the like. It will also keep you from getting into too much trouble. Doing this job yourself is a great idea, as it will give you some very good experience and knowledge about your motor, which may come in handy someday away from the dock!

Pi


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## Irwin32 (Jul 1, 2001)

Do not assume you have blown a head gasket. Cranking the A4 excessively w/o starting can result in water getting into the cylinders. You did the right thing by getting the water out and getting MMO into the cylinders. Hopefully you cranked it over to get the MMO to your rings. 

Run a compression check.

If your engine was running fine the last time before you shut it down I am going to bet is is still OK. Head gaskets don''t blow just sitting around and waiting.

After you get it going and check the compression, keep your eye on things. Check the oil to look for signs of water. I am putting my money on your engine is OK and you just cranked it too long.

I think what happens is that as you you crank, exhaust water backs up because the engine is not kicking it out with enough force and it ends up backing into your cylinders.

One can install a drain valve at a low point in the exhaust system downstream from where the water enters. When the engine is being stubborn, that valve can be opened to prevent the exhaust system from filling up with water.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Try [email protected]

There are guys on this list that know everything there is to know about the A-4

Good Luck


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## ncstatesailor (Dec 14, 2009)

I realize this is an old forum.. but I have had the exact same problem. I left the sea valve open for a couple weeks and then started up the engine after a couple tries. We motored about 200yds and then the engine all of a sudden sounded like it had no power.. and the throttle did very little. We just made it back to the dock before it died.

Upon inspection, there was water in the carb and so we followed all the steps here about putting MMO in the cylinders and cranking her a few times... draining the carb.. etc...

But after the carb was dry and everything was put back together... we cranked the engine... with no luck.. and then saw that water had filled up the carb once again. 

Anyone have any ideas as to why the carb keeps filling up with water after i try to start the engine? (Atomic Four - raw water cooled)

Thanks


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

As you crank the engine, if the water intake is open the water pump is moving water. If the engine does not fire, the water is not "blown" out of the muffler and out the exhaust. it simply fills the exhaust system, and eventually the water level is high enough in the system to run back into the engine through any open exhaust valve. The intake should be shut if your expect to crank more than a a few seconds to start, then quickly opened only once the engine is running.

That's one possibility, anyhow, as is a blown headgasket in which case water can get directly into the cylinder from the water jacket. As indicated earlier in this thread, lack of compression will make starting difficult.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

What Faster said.

In a typical A4 installation you don't want to crank for more than about 30-45 seconds with the raw water intake open and the engine not firing. That's a *cumulative* number, by the way. If our A4 does not start after about 30 seconds of cranking, the raw water intake gets closed until she fires up.

Jim


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## ncstatesailor (Dec 14, 2009)

We have the raw water valve intake closed.. and am still getting water in the carb. The water looks oily/milky... what could this mean? After putting the MMO in the cylinders... we saw it drain a little bit into the carb... 

we fired the engine w/ the spark plugs out 3 or 4 times.... should we fire it w/o the plugs more to drain even more water out of the cylinders, or do you think that was enough?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Do you have a drain plug on your water lift muffler? If so drain it all out so you're absolutely positive the water is out of the exhaust system. You should evacuate as much water from the cylinders as possible, preferably all...

Then, if the problem persists, you're at the point where I think you need to do a compression check to see if you've got a blown headgasket.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

ncstatesailor,
What the others experts have said.
Oily/milky liquid is usually water mixed with oil which could just be the MMO mixed with water from spinning your engine. 
Check your engine oil for this milkiness as well. If that is milky too then you have a few engine oil changes in your immediate future. 
If you have a water lift muffler on your exhaust side it is probably still full of water and may be slowly draining back to your engine, into the exhaust manifold and somehow finding its way into your carb.  
As Faster indicated, the water is forced out of the engine by the engine actually running. The combustion gases from the cylinders helps to push the water out the exhaust when the engine is actually running. So, yes, you should put the plugs back in and try to fire it up (with the raw water valve closed) to push (not drain) the water out of your exhaust side.
I guess you will be closing your raw water intake from now on. Often I will wait for the engine to start turning over before opening the cooling water intake valve. 
More diagnostic questions:
- How long have you owned this boat with the A4 engine?
- Has it ever had any performance problems in the past?
- Are you a member at the Moyer Marine (A4) forums? Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Powered by vBulletin
and do you have the A4 owners manual?
Good luck.


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## ncstatesailor (Dec 14, 2009)

Hmmm... the water lift muffler.. we haven't looked at that yet. We'll try to find the drain for that in the morning and go through the process once again. How many times should we need to turn the engine over to get enough water residue out of the cylinders?

I actually just got the boat a month ago. The previous owner said the engine was running fine for the last year. We motor sailed her for 4 hours down the coast to my current slip and then shut the engine off (without closing the raw water valve) Then weeks later, started her back up after the second or so try and that's when we only made it about 200yds before she died. I have the owners manual, but seem to have exhausted it's options for troubleshooting.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I thought the boat & engine must be a bit new to you which is why I asked.
Keep putting MMO in the cylinders and trying to start the engine with the raw water cooling valve off until it kicks over. 
In instances like this I recommend spraying a little ether (starting fluid) on the backfire flame arrestor as it may help the engine get going a bit faster then all the cranking you need to do to get it going with the choke only. You are new to this engine and it would help if you checked out the MMI website & forums: Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Powered by vBulletin

If there is still water in your cylinders then I can't think of anything better then to put either ether into the air intake or pure gas in the cylinders so that you get some kind of combustion going on (this assumes you have a spark at the spark plugs).

If you can get the engine to kick over for about 10 - 15 seconds I would guess you would have enough pressure built up to push the water out of your exhaust system. You will have o check your exhaust port to verify this.

These are old engines that were designed to work tractors in the field and they are rather hard to kill.

I would still check out the exhaust system to be sure there is adequate clearance to make sure that crap has not built up and obstructed the exhaust.

Best of luck.

My A4 is 42 years old and counting and still starts with just the choke pulled out (engaged) unless after a winter layup. That is when I use ether to get it kicking over quickly.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

With you getting water in the carb so quickly with the water intake closed, I would check to see if there is water in the fuel tank. That would explain the engine suddenly running poorly and then stopping.


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## ncstatesailor (Dec 14, 2009)

Well we drained the water lift muffler.. and there wasn't enough water in there to make us think it was back filled any more...

We've tried starter fluid in the carb and cylinders... no luck..

The exhaust system was working fine before all of this happened...

The only new developement is that we think the carb is geting gas in it now.. its not milky water.. but rather milky gas...

We are getting sparks from the plugs...

Any more ideas?

Thanks so much you guys... I am new to the engine.. but starting to learn it intimately.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

nc-
Also bear in mind that once you get the rest of the water out of the engine, carb, whatever, you need to change the oil. There will be water in there too. Then either run it till it gets and stays hot (to burn off whatever water is still in the new oil) or run it and change the oil AGAIN to make sure it has no water left in it. Cheap straight-weight oil will do for the first round if you're using it as a "water cleaner". If someone has added a filter to your engine change that too.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

A few things the way the flame arrestor points UP combined with the angle of the motor  results in it catching anything spilled in the area ( dont ask how i know this)

BUT the carb has a bowl drain AND if you still have a manual fuel pump it has a priming lever which you can use to flush out the bowl into a glass jar and examine the fuel for water contamination.

I would check compression BEFORE trying to run the motor anymore and confirm that you do in fact have a healthly motor 

If its good it can take a LONG time to get it dry enough NOT to foul the spark plugs


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## ncstatesailor (Dec 14, 2009)

All,
Well, my father who's been up helping me w/ all the tools has gone home for the weekend now... so it looks like the engine will have to wait a few days before I can get a mechanic from work to come take a look. We put some more MMO back in the cylinders to stop anything from getting worse. Looks like a compression test and a couple oil changes are next on the list. I'll post a reply when I know more.. thanks for now!


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

As CalebD mentioned, i would (and have) def. go to moyer marine... some resto pics are the sharpest ive seen. btw, quick tip to check compression, sparkplugs out, throw a towel over the deal, and when you crank make sure the towel is 'puffing' in all the right places. 

good luck, 
fellow a4 man,
Q


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## jaschrumpf (Jun 22, 2002)

The "thumb test" as described by Don Moyer:

"If there is no compression gauge available, you can remove all the plugs and hold your thumb over each spark plug hole while someone runs the starter for a few seconds at each hole. As long as the compression is sufficient to blow past your thumb no matter how hard you press, it is quite normal."


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## ncstatesailor (Dec 14, 2009)

Well guys, I have news. I ordered a new set of head gaskets and a couple other gaskets and my father and I decided to tackle the head this weekend. All signs pointed to a blown head. We tried to check the compression before hand, but both gauges we were using registered at zero compression on all four cylinders. It seems like we should have read something on the dial since all four cylinders were puffing on the towel when we cranked her over to get out any more water...

So with little hope that the compression was where it was supposed to be, we took off the head. There were two studs that came off with the head that had been broken at a previous date(known from the carbonation around the break)

The head came off w/o very much trouble, surprisingly. My dad started to clean engine side... and I started on the head, scraping off the old gasket and rust. We couldn't really tell if the head had failed anywhere, but it likely had. 

The big news: As I had cleaned all the combustion areas leaving the one under the thermostat housing till last, I saw it. The metal between the combustion area and the thermostat housing/water jacket... had been compromised. There was a small hole the size and shape of a flathead screw driver that had eroded away. So that explains the water in the cylinders! It was coming straight in from the water cooling in the head itself. 

Though not the best news ever.. it is nice to know exactly why the water showed up. 

The next step: fix the head. Any suggestions on how? Should I get it welded/repaired at a local shop? Sent off to Moyer Marine? Or buy a new one all together for fear that the other combustion areas are probably at the verge of failing as well...?

Just wanted to update you all who have been helping me w/ the progress and give a solution/idea to anyone else wondering why there could be water in their cylinders...


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## marianclaire (Feb 4, 2010)

I know I’m getting in late here and you have some good MMI folks helping. So bear with me if I am missing something. In reading the post you mention water in the carb. If water is in the cylinder as the piston comes up the intake valve should be closed. I wonder if there is a leak in the manifold allowing water back to the carb. Is that possible? Dan S/V Marian Claire GO PACK


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## ncstatesailor (Dec 14, 2009)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what could make since, and for wishful thinking that there isn't another problem...

Wouldn't the water from the water jacket inside the head pour back into the first cylinder when the engine was off.. and if the intake valve was open, then it would fill up the cylinder's volume and pour back into the intake valve?

It seems normal for ownersm on this forum to be instructed to drain the carb to let the water out after water is found in the cylinders.. correct?


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## marianclaire (Feb 4, 2010)

Your first post said +- it started, ran for 200 yards, and died as you returned. That to me is the difference in your situation and the “over cranking” issues we have seen. You’re A-4 filled with water while running not cranking. I sure don’t understand all this stuff, so I tend to throw out ideas and those that do know chime in. Good luck and keep us posted. Dan S/V Marian Claire


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## ncstatesailor (Dec 14, 2009)

Great Success!! Just in time for the warmer weather. I'm very pleased to say that after installing the new head w/ new head gaskets and replacing the thermostat gasket... it worked! It took a lot of cranking.. and eventually some help from a couple sprays of started fluid, but in the end she cranked right up!

My alternator is a little loose, and I think a bit out of line, so she didn't sound like the kitten she as before, but I'm going to tighten/align everything when the weather clears up again.

I ran her for about 15-20 min after I could put the choke all the way in. The only thing is.. I think the throttle handle at the helm is a little non responsive. I have a feeling/hope it's just a simple mechanical fix on the cables, but that will be for another day as well. I can handle some simple mechanics now that the science of combustion/pressure has been dealt with!

You can't kill these A-4's!


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## marianclaire (Feb 4, 2010)

Glad I was wrong. Manifolds are expensive. Enjoy. Dan S/V Marian Claire


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

nc-
Old throttle cables frequently need adjustment, and eventually replacement. The hardest part is trying to get a new cable that is a similar size and length if it does need replacement. Eyeball the cable, if it is rusty and strands have failed, time to replace it.


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