# W D Schock called me a freeloader for asking for info about my boat



## bigbird (Sep 20, 2012)

I sent a E-Mail to W D Schock about some specifications for my 25' Santana and they never answered me. 
So I went on to there facebook page and put a picture of my boat and a comment. "See Below"

D Schock has been around for sometime, I have a 1973 25' Santana that has been lots of fun. Sad thing is, I wrote to them asking for info. I can understand that they may not have it. 
You would think they could E-Mail me back and let me know it.
Nothing is what I received back from them.
I guess they only care about the new boats they sell. Kind of sad.
Well in with the new and out with the old. 
Here is a picture of her and when I purchased her 4 years ago she had Auckland on her stern. Wonder if she made the trip there or back?

Here was there reply! 
After they removed my post from there Facebook page.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
W D Schock Performance Sailboats 
we get hundreds of such requests each month who want free information or data. We also get thousands of requests per month from boat owners that want to buy parts for their legacy boats. Guess who gets support - the freeloaders or the customers ?
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Not too sure I want to ever be a customer of there's.
Nice boat, bad support.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

the Schock family are great people. I worked for them when I was a kid. they no longer own Schock boats and I guess the the new owners just do not get it. support your owners or don't, get return customers or don't


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## Tinman55 (Aug 24, 2014)

bigbird said:


> I sent a E-Mail to W D Schock about some specifications for my 25' Santana and they never answered me.
> So I went on to there facebook page and put a picture of my boat and a comment. "See Below"
> 
> Here was there reply!
> ...


Wow .. how rude. I guess once you buy their boat you're on your own. I can't believe the "Company" would support such a response. You should forward this to the corporate office .. maybe marketing.

Hopefully someone here will have the info you need .. some really great resources here.

Good Luck!


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## bigbird (Sep 20, 2012)

I never said I asked for free advice, Here is what I asked for:

Do you have the rig tension specs. for a 1973 25' Santana?
A PDF of the owners Manual would be great.
The Boats name is Eos

If you have any personal History or files of the boat please send it.
It has a Port of Auckland on the aft and a sticker on it from Missoula Mt. "Flat Head Lake"
Guess it has been around a little bit.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Tinman55 said:


> Wow .. how rude. I guess once you buy their boat you're on your own. I can't believe the "Company" would support such a response. You should forward this to the corporate office .. maybe marketing.
> 
> Hopefully someone here will have the info you need .. some really great resources here.
> 
> Good Luck!


corporate office? you make it seem like there is more the one person in their office.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

bigbird said:


> I never said I asked for free advice, Here is what I asked for:
> 
> Do you have the rig tension specs. for a 1973 25' Santana?
> A PDF of the owners Manual would be great.
> ...


This is exactly how you worded your request? With this tone?


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## bigbird (Sep 20, 2012)

Yes, should it have been different. I was hoping they had the info on file or if not, a no info on file would have been fine.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Just seems a bit like a demand to me. I guess I would have thrown in a "I'd appreciate it if you could..." or a "Would it be possible for you to provide me with..."

But that's just me. Everyone is different.

But, if I had been on the receiving end of that request, I would have probably ignored you, too. Or, moved you to the end of my To Do list.


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## oysterman23 (Jul 22, 2011)

Yeah I cannot imagine management being OK with that return. The po of my morgan24/25 (1968) gave me a large folio of material on the boat mostly provided to him over the years by Catalina who went out of their way to search out material on the old Morgans for him and many others who had written in. That really impressed me . I would never approach any of them brusquely but with appreciation for time and trouble. Along the way I've had the help of many as I have upgraded the boat . Thankfully most boat builders and boating folk are generous and helpful (patient too)...sorry for your experience but suggest a graceful work around might work ....if not there are other source!


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

Tinman55 said:


> Wow .. how rude. I guess once you buy their boat you're on your own. I can't believe the "Company" would support such a response. You should forward this to the corporate office .. maybe marketing.
> 
> Hopefully someone here will have the info you need .. some really great resources here.
> 
> Good Luck!


I agree that the response was un-businesslike, but did you read the rude post that the OP posted on the company's Facebook page? (The post here is easy to misunderstand as a gripe to us sail netters, but he is quoting what he posted on the company's Facebook page).

OP, if you want somebody to do something for you, especially something that is more or less optional, then be nice about it all the way through. The first time you go rude (apparently in your case that was after your first communication) you give them an easy excuse to say no. Why not follow up with a polite phone call instead?


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## Tinman55 (Aug 24, 2014)

scratchee said:


> I agree that the response was un-businesslike, but did you read the rude post that the OP posted on the company's Facebook page? (The post here is easy to misunderstand as a gripe to us sail netters, but he is quoting what he posted on the company's Facebook page).
> 
> OP, if you want somebody to do something for you, especially something that is more or less optional, then be nice about it all the way through. The first time you go rude (apparently in your case that was after your first communication) you give them an easy excuse to say no. Why not follow up with a polite phone call instead?


Agreed, he could, and should, have worded his request better. And while requesting an owners manual seems reasonable, having records on that specific boat probably unlikely at best. I was a bit surprised by the numbers in the reply .. 100's a month for info and 1000's a month for parts .. that's a lot of requests! Their production page says the built about 5000 boats, just seems an excessive ratio of requests for parts .. every month.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

Tinman55 said:


> Agreed, he could, and should, have worded his request better.


That may be true, but I am referring to his post on their Facebook page when they didn't respond. In part, *"I guess they only care about the new boats they sell. Kind of sad. Well in with the new and out with the old."* As I said, in the post here it looks like he's just griping to us on this forum. But he's actually quoting what he wrote on the company's Facebook page, apparently after a single email asking them for information.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Maybe the OP could have been more polite. But now he's on SailNet talking about Schock's poor customer service.

All Schock had to do was send a PDF with rig specs and an owner's manual PDF (if they had it). 

That's not such a high bar to make him happy customer.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Fail.


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## Tinman55 (Aug 24, 2014)

bigbird said:


> I never said I asked for free advice, Here is what I asked for:
> 
> Do you have the rig tension specs. for a 1973 25' Santana?
> A PDF of the owners Manual would be great.
> ...


I doubt anyone is going to have personal history files on your specific boat. However a simple search did provide a link to an owners manual and a group of Santana enthusiasts .. go to SANTANA 525 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com for basics (I assume that's your boat) and then follow the Angelfire link at the bottom. They should be able to help you but do word your request with more "please" , "if possible", "I'd really appreciate" type wordage if you want their help.


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## lido1280 (Apr 10, 2014)

I don't know. I sent a request for part for my Lido 14, built in 1962 and was forwarded to the correct department with a note saying "We support all our boats".


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Yeah, i call this one a draw. you sent an email, and got no answer. Now, personally, when that happens to me, i figure maybe it got lost in spam, or i sent it to the wrong address...
so i send it again, with NOTSPAM in the subject line and a receipt request.
If I'm still ignored, okay, now I might go public...
...in a diplomatic way.
if i am STILL ignored, okay, NOW it gets dramatic.
You might have skipped a few steps.

The company did themselves no favours in their response, but I can almost understand the thinking- Really, you're never going to buy a new boat from them and they know they are never going to sell you a new boat, so, in their mind they didn't lose a customer and may have saved themselves some time and trouble from those damn pesky "legacy" customers.

It's too bad when manufacturers forget what "legacy" means.


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## Tinman55 (Aug 24, 2014)

scratchee said:


> That may be true, but I am referring to his post on their Facebook page when they didn't respond. In part, *"I guess they only care about the new boats they sell. Kind of sad. Well in with the new and out with the old."* As I said, in the post here it looks like he's just griping to us on this forum. But he's actually quoting what he wrote on the company's Facebook page, apparently after a single email asking them for information.


Oh, I didn't get that impression. I thought that "care about new .." comment was for us, not what he put on their facebook page. eek! not good. Well, he learned a good lesson today if nothing else.  They all failed, right Smack!


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Actually this is the boat he is wanting info on SANTANA 25-2 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com the original and I just sent a properly worded email we shall see what we get.


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## kentobin (Mar 31, 2007)

Well I'm with those of you that feel both bigbird and Schock were politically incorrect.

If bigbird really wanted Schock's help it would have been less grating to not make statements like "I guess they only care about the new boats they sell. Kind of sad." on facebook a very public forum.

Now that the gauntlet was thrown Schock calling bigbird a "freeloader" was a politically incorrect term even if accurate. He was asking for free help but the term freeloader also has other connotations that are rather negative.

Could it have been handled better by both parties? Possibly.

Anyway thanks for the entertainment.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Just looked serious at the picture and that is not a Santana 25 look at the transom and cabin trunk looks more like the 27 Santana to me SANTANA 27 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


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## Tinman55 (Aug 24, 2014)

newhaul said:


> Actually this is the boat he is wanting info on SANTANA 25-2 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com the original and I just sent a properly worded email we shall see what we get.


Whoops! good catch .. next time I'm reading with my glasses on! Thanks!

Though it does look like the Angelfire 525 site may be a help to him as well. Pretty cool looking group and tons of info.


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## Tinman55 (Aug 24, 2014)

newhaul said:


> Just looked serious at the picture and that is not a Santana 25 look at the transom and cabin trunk looks more like the 27 Santana to me SANTANA 27 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


Actually the 25-1 has that cabin (like the 27) .. and I don't see a rudder and the 25-1 has a transom hung rudder .. is it off in that pic?


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Looking close at the picture I don't think this is even a Santana the 25 has an inboard and a reverse raked transom. Big bird what does the title say and or what is the hin


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## bigbird (Sep 20, 2012)

It is a 25-1 and does have a transom hung rudder. Sail data does not have the rigging tension specs and that was all that I really wanted. I do think that there should be support for your boat no matter how old it is if they are still in business. I was sending a message to a business not my mom and believe my asking was not rude. Just stated the facts. My posting on there Facebook page did what I wanted. Got there attention. Was never expecting I would be called a freeloader. I do own a 18 foot Hobie Cat and a 34 foot Islander and am in the market for a new sail boat so I am not just trailer trash.
I have been surfing this forum, and enjoy the info I read here. Keep it up. 
I do still think W D Schock makes a good boat. I liked looking over the one they had at the Seattle Boat Show last year. If I remember right it was a Harbor 22.


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## bigbird (Sep 20, 2012)

They came with a optional inboard motor.


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## bigbird (Sep 20, 2012)

HIN WDS00049097
Here is another pic of her.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

OK yep that's a 25-1 the angle of the other photo was misleading on transom angle thanks for the new pic I have written them as my repair company we shall see if it helps any


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I will bet most of the companies that failed during the great recession had a bad attitude toward their customers.

As far as tone in an email or facebook page, there may be a generational gap. Tone is very difficult to deliver well in a short post of any kind. My kids generation just doesn't bother at all. Everything is shorthand anyway. No please, no nothing. They get used to it from each other, so I don't think it's meant the way it seems to many of us.

The old adage, "the customer is always right", has stood the test of time for a reason. You don't know the customer intended to be rude, so just answer their question. At the least, you simply reply that you don't have an answer. You don't rub their nose in it.

I get technical answers, copies of manufacturer drawings and repair instructions from Jeanneau USA whenever I ask.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

The OP asked for a hell of a lot of information.
Have a think about sending your staff to the file repository looking for a personal file from 30 years ago. Are you kidding me?

And if it is a generational gap and being very brief nowadays I will be brief: Learn civility.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Actually, I'm getting a bit irritated....

The OP has joined this forum just so he can anonymously slag this company.

Sux.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> The OP asked for a hell of a lot of information.
> Have a think about sending your staff to the file repository looking for a personal file from 30 years ago. Are you kidding me?


Actually not that big of a deal for most companies. I've received manuals and drawings from Catalina for our 94 & 95. They offer tremendous support for owners of their used boats.



MarkofSeaLife said:


> And if it is a generational gap and being very brief nowadays I will be brief: Learn civility.


+1, but it's not just a generational thing. In general people seem to be less polite and considerate these days.


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## flandria (Jul 31, 2012)

I think we have a case here to demonstrate how e-mail messages can go wrong.

It is very easy to send a short, to-the-point message, as you did. You might have elaborated, struck a congenial tone and, if indeed you were prepared to pay for service, expressed that intent... Strike 1, thus, is against you.

Strike 2 is against Schock. Like you, they (he? she?) was abrupt to the point of rudeness, when, in fact, they could have offered help in exchange for a reasonable fee. It was not warranted (yet) to call you a freeloader. They might even say that "old" information can be obtained (if available) for a reasonable fee - either on Facebook or in their reply.

Thus, this is a cautionary tale for all of us to think through not only WHAT we write, but, possibly more importantly, HOW we write. I often (not always) re-read an e-mail, not only to check for inevitable errors of grammar or typing, but to reflect on how I would like to read it as the intended recipient... Hmmm, it often makes me re-write stuff in a far more friendly tone. It amazes how "bare words" do come across as cold, when a slight embellishment does wonders.

And, all is not lost... You could well contact them again (in language sweet as honey) to offer payment for information you obviously would like receiving, without rubbing their noses in the shortcomings of their reply to you.

Good luck... If you try the latter and get a fair reply, let us all know!


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> I will bet most of the companies that failed during the great recession *had a bad attitude toward their customers*.
> 
> ...


The foregoing is probably true...But...the OP wasn't "one of their customers". He was someone that happened to have purchased a boat built by the Company *41 years earlier*! A boat that had likely passed through several, if not many, hands before he acquired it, particularly so considering the old Hailing Port. He was asking for a courtesy of a vendor that, like most boat companies that have survived through the recession, operates on razor thin margins and the old saw "Time is Money" holds true now more so than ever.

Some will respond: "So what? He needed what, 5 minutes?"

Perhaps, but 5 minutes multiplied by several thousand requests per month adds up to the proverbial "bunch'a minutes". At that, a thousand such requests a month alone would cost upwards of $2,000 a month of lower level employee time or over $25,000 per annum. That adds up to an awful lot of "courtesy's", No? And when his needs/wants aren't satisfied "as a courtesy", the "not a customer" OP posts derogatory remarks on the Company's web site that may convince someone else, a potential real customer, to not be?

Frankly, I don' have much sympathy for that. Had he begun his email with something to the effect "I'd like to buy..."; or, "What is the cost of..." he might have gotten a bit further. Considering, however, the voluminous information on the boat available from owner's associations, and on the web, my answer to the OP is--USE Google!


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Troll - In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Maybe the OP is a troll, but they joined 2 years ago. These just seem to be their first posts. 

Nevertheless, the argument against the company is not that they should have spent any time or money on the request. They should have simple replied that they didn't have the information requested. Simple. No good comes from a business being a jerk, even if they're in the right. If, on the other hand, they do have the owners manuals and rig tensions available, it's pretty bad product support to deny them to the fleet.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

A great reputation for customer support means a stronger used boat market. 

A strong used boat market and a great reputation for support translates to new boat sales.

Rocket science it's not...


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

If our member, WD Schock, doesn't own the company anymore, he doesn't need to defend himself, or be defended. It isn't his responsibility anymore. I suspect that's why he has had the good sense to not weigh in on this thread. 

The request that the OP said he made of the company doesn't strike me as rude or abrupt, and the response was inappropriate. Whenever you feel tempted to put an insult in writing, you should first ask yourself, "How would this make me look if it was published in my home town newspaper, or posted on the internet?" If it would make you look like a jerk, you should probably delete it and try a different, more thoughtful response.


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## bigbird (Sep 20, 2012)

I am good at finding information on the internet, so I do not post here asking for info that can be found here on the web.

The info I asked for "Do you have the rig tension specs. for a 1973 25' Santana?" can not be found on the internet but I will find the a close enough answer I can use.
I have done a lot of reading here for many years "more than 2" and is a great resource. 
Am I a Troll, came here to complain about my experience with WD, well I did so I guess I am. If I never complained in public forum this company or its employees would go unchecked. How often have you been treated like trash by a company over the phone.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Well a couple of things here. First, I am surprised I did not realize WD Schock was still in business. I am shocked at the email, as calling someone who uses a product of the company a "freeloader" is beyond belief. Sure he was asking about an old boat, but at least the rigging specs is something they should supply as it really is not available from anyone else. Sure they may not have owners manual, and actually back then there really was not much of an owners manual other than a few typed and mimeographed pages with set up info for the first use. But I don't think he was asking that much. Lots of companies have converted there older owners manuals into digital format so it is easy to distribute in such cases. Heck I was able to go to the Sunbeam web site and download a manual and recipe book for a 20 year old bread maker that cost $60 when new and I bought at a yard sale for $5.

Now the biggest thing that shocks me is that they say they are getting so many requests. How many of there boats are out there? And the real shock is that they don't see the business opportunity. How can you turn away hundreds of requests for info a month, and not turn them into customers for parts? Come on if you have a boat that the company made, then you will likely need to eventually buy parts for it. I doubt they will be in business much longer with that attitude. Heck Catalina has a whole business selling parts to support there boat owners. It sounds to me that they are not interested in supporting there owners, just selling new boats.


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## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

I don't disagree with anything you wrote, Minne... just a couple thoughts inserted below.



Minnewaska said:


> ...
> As far as tone in an email or facebook page, there may be a generational gap. Tone is very difficult to deliver well in a short post of any kind. My kids generation just doesn't bother at all. Everything is shorthand anyway. No please, no nothing. They get used to it from each other, so I don't think it's meant the way it seems to many of us.


I agree. The generation raised on texting as the main form of communication is definitely used to shorthand, and all forms of social niceties have been stripped from usage in that medium. To their peers, it's not offensive in the least. Unfortunately, (or fortunately, I guess, depending upon your chronological status), that form of communication is increasingly informing ALL forms of written communication and a good deal of verbal communication too. I have 8th graders who truly think that "later" is spelled l8r... they use it in formal papers; I could give hundreds of examples. "Please" and "Thank you" have been replaced by "I need" and silence in speech. Not always of course, but more often than in the past.

I'm not suggesting that texting does not have an appropriate or even beneficial usage; for many people, it's an efficient, semi-unobtrusive way to get in touch with friends and family when a phone call would take too much time. Personally, I just wait until I have time to talk or email; I don't text, but I recognize that's a personal decision/taste. HOWEVER, when contacting a business, especially when you have no intention of buying anything or adding to their profit margin (that's WHY they're in business.. no matter how kind and helpful the business owner may be, or how much they enjoy producing their product, the POINT of being in business is to make money... otherwise it's a hobby), you are, in essence, asking for a favor and writing a business letter. The OP's original communication to the business was far from a polite inquiring business letter. Granted, he probably didn't mean any offense by it or see it as rude in any way, but that doesn't mean it wasn't offensive or rude. Many rude people just don't REALIZE they're being rude. I have a few friends with hearts of gold who are truly helpful kind people, but are frequently unintentionally very rude.



Minnewaska said:


> The old adage, "the customer is always right", has stood the test of time for a reason. You don't know the customer intended to be rude, so just answer their question. At the least, you simply reply that you don't have an answer. You don't rub their nose in it.


Again, agreed. The business responded harshly to the OP's facebook post (don't get me started about Facebook.. this current thread is yet another example of how facebook can make a galaxy out of a mole hill) and should not have done so. Of course, the OP's facebook post was a TOTALLY unnecessary overreaction (that's what facebook's best for) to being slighted by the company's not replying to his original demand for free information.

Here's how this should have gone down..

OP - "Dear Company, I've acquired one of your boats, and I'm looking forward to learning more about it. Would you be able to furnish me with a link to the owner's manual? If that's not available, I'd be happy to pay you for a hard copy if you're able to send me one. Additionally, while I realize this is a longshot, any information you have on the history of my boat, hull #whatever, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for anything you can do to help me out.

Best wishes,

OP"

Then...

Company (worst case scenario) - "Dear OP, we're sorry, but at this time we are unable to offer any support for our legacy boats. We understand that there are several owner groups out there, and perhaps you can locate them via google. Good luck, and thank you for adopting one of our earlier designs"

OR...

Company (best case scenario) - "Dear OP, Nice to hear from you! Here's a link to the manual online. If you'd like to send us your address, we'd be happy to send you a hardcopy at our expense. If you need any assistance with parts in the future, please give us a call. We don't currently maintain historical records of the hulls we produce, but give us a few days to see what we can find. Welcome to our boats!"

Everybody's happy. Be nice.



Minnewaska said:


> I get technical answers, copies of manufacturer drawings and repair instructions from Jeanneau USA whenever I ask.


As you should. Knowing you only through your posts, I'd wager a month's income that you phrase your requests as you do your posts; in a well-written, polite, clear manner. That may be part of the reason you receive excellent service from Jeanneau.

To the OP, please take this post in the manner in which I intended it.. I'm trying to be helpful. I don't know you at all, so I have no basis to judge you and wouldn't anyway... that's no one's job in the first place. My comments were about the things you wrote to the company and about the facebook post.. not you as a person.

Best to all..

Barry


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

deniseO30 said:


> The OP has six posts. clearly only came here to make trouble. WD is a long time member and respected contributor to sail net.


Isn't member WDS123 (Boatbuilder - WdSchock) banned?


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## single2coil (Apr 12, 2014)

Get over it "bigbird" you are just whining. We don't need this attitude on the blog. Go hire a local rigging company. Oh you probably want that for free also.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Yes, WDS123 was banned.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

While I have criticized the OP in this thread, I should add that I highly suspect that the company's response, which was clearly unprofessional, was made by a person who was untrained and unauthorized to deal with a customer dispute.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

I am still trying to figure out why anyone would think Schock would have this information, or why it would be appropriate to call them for it. If you called Ford's Corperate switchboard and asked for the tire pressure for a 1970 F-150 I would be amazed if they didn't just hang up on you as well. Same thing here, go spend an afternoon getting the boat in tune, or if you don't know how hire the local tire shop (sail maker) to spend a few hours getting the boat set up. 

And asking for a 40 year old owners manuel... Again why would anyone expect them to have it. Just like our old trusty F-150 I wouldn't call afford Corperate Headquarters about it, but I might start scavenging eBay. Or an owners group, or sailnet...


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## single2coil (Apr 12, 2014)

Lets move on. This has turned into a very shallow discussion about a whiner.


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## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

single2coil said:


> Lets move on. This has turned into a very shallow discussion about a whiner.


I can see that viewpoint. On the other hand, we could look at it as a useful discussion about the best ways to ensure effective customer/business communication resulting in mutually beneficial outcomes. I don't think the OP nor the Schock company need be tarred and feathered over this.

Barry


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

deniseO30 said:


> Donna, then isn't that alone a good reason to delete this "discussion"?


Denise, not in my opinion. Although I do understand your point as a business owner, I also see things from the consumer side (and as an older boat owner myself). If I look beyond the communications that both parties made to each other, I think a lot of people provided information on how to go about obtaining older boat specs that could be useful to anyone buying his or her first older boat.

A little politeness on both their sides might have prevented this thread from even getting started. The OP told us the he wasn't looking for anything for free, but that certainly wasn't communicated in the text that he sent to Shock. Not that I read.

One of the things that drew me towards Catalina was their rep for being responsive to owners of out of production boats. I've never had reason to actually personally test that, but I have contacted them with a question about a new boat...and received no response. I've also seen how they responded to someone who purchased a semi-custom new boat and frankly, it lowered my respect. Changing times? Changing corporate culture? Don't know. Customer service makes an impression, good or bad, old or new product. I don't have a background in marketing but it seems to me that for a company that's still in business, word of mouth by anyone using their product is free advertising.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

deniseO30 said:


> ...
> 
> It's even least likely a co. will answer an email that is not on point with the information required to give a decent response. Like VIN and MOD numbers... but on a 41 year old boat that gave no indication of wanting to buy or pay. I'd not answer it either.
> 
> We do NOT know if WD was the responder and we most likely will never know, Soooooo pardon me if I take the OP's rant for anything other then that. This is going on to 7 pages.. I guess the troll got what it was seeking


I don't disagree with any of this. Since this is his first post since he joined in 2012 I'm positive his only reason was to rant and obtain affirmation that he did nothing wrong. I would like to think that if someone who has a need to contact a company reads this thread and gives some thought to exactly what he or she is writing and how it may or may not be perceived by the recipient.

As someone else implied, neither set good examples.


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

deniseO30 said:


> for a 1973 boat?? You want free advice, kind of like people that call me 5-10 years after we installed heating or ac. they still think I own them something.
> Nope. guess who gets the return call?
> 
> I'm with WD on this.


What an incredibly short sighted and poor business attitude. I guess you dont want repeat customers. Any idea how much it costs you to get a new customer versus retaining an old one?
Unfortunately this attitude is far to prevalent in really small companies where the owner is also the service person. They are usually great until the job is done or nearly done but provide zero afterwards even if they did a poor install job. Unless you are the only game in town this is how you go out of business. Its easy to turn these types of requests into revenue!!! Look at all the free and valuable advice from Mainesail posted on this forum and on his website. He turns that into revenue.

I spend well over a million a year on legal fees and even the lawyer who only gets 1 file a year from me (about $30k) will give me time without billing. Those that dont find they dont get any of my work but then they start calling me wondering what is going on. When I tell them how busy I am they always offer to take me to lunch or a hockey game etc to discuss how they can help. Guess what Donna - by that time its to late.

OP should have worded his request better and Schock should have sent the owners manual and simply said we dont have your boat history. If they have as many request as Schock claims then maybe they need to look at their product to improve quality or hire another person and increase their revenue by meeting some of those requests.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I guess the new owners are sailing enthusiasts, not businessmen. Do a fast web search for "Amy's Baking Company" to see the opinion from Forbes and other business-savvy sources about what it will cost when a business is rude to "customers".

Every "freeloader" is a potential cash customer! But some companies just don't get that. What's the cost of putting up a web site, and hiring a high school kid to put all the legacy files up for the fans? Ford, Chrysler, GM, all have gone back and forth but their "racing" divisions (MOPAR) were all dedicated to generating enthusiasm among fans for their brand--regardless of what those fans were paying.

Quite some time ago, before there was a public "web", I called J/boats to ask some questions. And because it was lunchtime and the staff were mainly out, I got one of the Johnstone brothers himself on the phone! And yes, I wound up BUYING the book once he took the time to explain all the good stuff that would be in it.

Freeloader? Sure, there are some. Others are fans, enthusiasts, _and potential customers._ And hey, sometimes the caller just doesn't have an extra $25 to buy the answers. What's the net cost of putting the legacy material on the web, and snowballing the enthusiasm for the brand? A damn sight less than what advertising costs, in print, at shows, OR in the forums.

Someone at Shock needs to hire a professional customer relations manager, and then stand clear.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Everyone owns a used boat. The only new boats are still in the OEMs title. Used boat support is a critical message or you don't sell new ones. Granted, that doesn't mean anything and everything, forever. However, wherever a manufacturer limits it, will limit their brand. Plain and simple.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

DRFerron said:


> ...One of the things that drew me towards Catalina was their rep for being responsive to owners of out of production boats. I've never had reason to actually personally test that, but I have contacted them with a question about a new boat...and received no response....


Me too (on one occasion), and it bothered me. The one case turned out to be non-critical, and I found the info I needed elsewhere.

Kent used to always respond to me within 24 hours, and would assist me in getting additional assistance from whomever was needed, including Frank Butler in one case. All of this was for my 1998 boat for which I am the 4th or 5th owner, which I thought was very impressive. And it has won me over as a future customer if I go larger someday.

But since Catalina closed down their California production and became more Florida-centric, things don't seem to be quite the same. I suspect that staffing cuts brought about by the recession may have contributed, and I believe that was unavoidable to stay in business. And we'd all lose if they went belly-up because they incurred unsustainable costs trying to maintain the staffing that they had before the "new normal."

I do believe that if something truly critical came up, they would give me whatever information I needed, and I would reciprocate by purchasing whatever parts were needed from them.


DRFerron said:


> ...I've also seen how they responded to someone who purchased a semi-custom new boat and frankly, it lowered my respect...


I've heard this whispering campaign against Catalina ever since Melrna took delivery on her boat. I don't know if that is the person that you are talking about, but I had concerns that she would be disappointed long before she took delivery. Her online list of modifications that she needed was a red flag to me. The specifications that she wanted sounded like a lot more than semi-custom. It seemed to me that she really wanted a custom boat at a production price, and I suspected all along that it was not going to end well. Given some of her positive comments here, I get the feeling that it ended a lot better for her than I expected.

Rather than continue this whispering campaign, I would love to hear a full, candid, factual discussion of the requests that she made of Catalina, and a full description of their disappointing response. I know nothing about custom boats (except that I probably can't afford one), and I know little about the factors that might limit production builders' ability to respond to special requests. But I suspect that there are some here who could really contribute to the discussion.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

TakeFive said:


> ...
> 
> Rather than continue this whispering campaign, I would love to hear a full, candid, factual discussion of the requests that she made of Catalina, and a full description of their disappointing response....


She hasn't been secretive about what she went through. She said she was going to write an article about her experiences for Mainsheet magazine. Let me know if you don't subscribe and I'll send you my copy.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

DRFerron said:


> She hasn't been secretive about what she went through. She said she was going to write an article about her experiences for Mainsheet magazine. Let me know if you don't subscribe and I'll send you my copy.


I must have missed it. Do you remember which issue it is?


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

TakeFive said:


> I must have missed it. Do you remember which issue it is?


She said fall. We just submitted the articles for that issue on the 15th so it will be out mid-month.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

deniseO30 said:


> Nope, not short sighted, I'm retired now. contractor, not a retail business. I played the game all my life seen to many (including my dad) work for people that don't pay, expect all, pay for little and assume the "contractor" owes them because the "other" one ripped them off. .......


Denise, I was sure you're reaction was based on your own experience. I would respectfully suggest they are not at all related. Expecting free repair or warranty service is apple and oranges from asking the original equipment manufacturer for a manual or operating specifications. The OP's request for ownership history was a serious stretch, but I see no good justification for the the OEM to blast them over the request.

If one's filter is to only do business with nice people, that's pretty unrealistic. I draw the line at threatening. I'm glad it worked for you, as you've described. However, I'm not sure my own family is nice every day. For a customer to have a bad day, act rude or be demanding is just part of customer service. If we don't escalate, it could turn around tomorrow and we could all be happy.

I had a client tear my head off a long time ago. I declined to do what he wanted and he went crazy. Said I was going to go down for it, had become too big for my britches, etc, etc. I took it, without flinching, and moved on. I actually ran into him unexpectedly about 10 years later. I didn't give it a second thought, but he actually came up to me to apologize for his behavior that long ago. Amazing. Who knows, maybe he was in a 12 step program.


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## Patient (Jan 7, 2009)

If they get "thousands" of requests from legacy customers for information about their boat specs, why don't they just charge $100 for an archival inquiry? %5 of that revenue could pay someone full-time to scan documents in a damp basement and send the pdfs.

Not the fastest boat in the regatta...


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

66 posts and the op has only three total I would say he got the affirmation and we have finally beat a dead horse to death again just my opinion as a small bussiness owner


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I'm out of this one, deleted my posts. it's just wrong to beat up some one that's not here.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

We will never reach agreement on this. For sure the OP's request was very poorly worded but the response was less than diplomatic and very short sighted. 

I'm a small business owner and will happily chat or email with anyone who asks for info on products going back over 25 years. If I can help I will, if not, such it is but I lose nothing bar a few minutes if I listen. Yes there are those who deserve nowt but a good thrashing but arsewipe customers are one of the prices you pay for being in business. As the saying goes, if it was easy everyone would be doing it or words to that effect. The biggun for me are the people who buy something online, not from us, then expect us to service the thing when they discover it ain't suitable for use in Australia or expect us to dsicount when our cost to modify to Oz specs costs more than their original savings. 

Anywho, such it is. Methinks that this thread has covered the bases. For the moment I'm closing the thread. Mods will discuss, closure may only be temporary.

btw .. wds123 was banned in 2012. Why I cannot now remember but I do know it was after many infringements, many warnings and many requests to modify behaviour.


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