# Bad trim, or shot main?



## Tim Labute (Jul 25, 2016)

Hey all. Bought a Hughes 35 and either I can't trim the main for the life of me, or it's shot. I have a pic I will attach and any advice is certainly welcome. Is there a test I can do to figure out if the main is shot? Or are my skills really lacking?

I am the rear boat in blue.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Halyard tension? Some McLube on the 'ol sail slides?


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Make sure your mainsheet and vang are eased when hoisting, hoist to black band on mast and the apply Cunningham till the draft is at least 50%


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Long distance photog doesn't clearly show all the 'angles' of how this sail is 'set' when the boat is heeling (10-15kts of wind). A few good pics from underneath the boom, looking up, and showing where the maximum draft occurs, a shot of how the leech is curved, etc. etc. would be of great help in sorting this out.

However, the leech possibly looks somewhat 'hooked-up' to windward, and the aft end of the boom seems to be 'drooping'. If this is actually so, and the boat had some noticeable weather helm when on a hard beat: ---- mainsail halyard tension is insufficient.

Especially in dacron mainsails made before the ~mid-1990s, such sails usually had to additionally have their 'luff stretched out' after raising them. The typical amount of 'stretch' was about 1" additional stretch out for every 10-11 ft. of luff length. Dacron cruising sails built after about ~2000 don't need this luff stretch out, most 'racing' dacron mainsails still do.

Here's a fairly detailed posting of how to determine which 'variant' you have, an implication of the problems with 'aged' dacron mainsails, and how to correct the shape if this sail was built with 'luff pre-load', or if the sail has the notorious/common 'shrunken bolt rope', .... or the sail is cut to 'more modern' _cruising_ design: How to properly RAISE a woven dacron mainsail | SailboatOwners.com Forums (see Post #1).

FWIW - The Hughes-35 had a 39ft. mainsail luff length; so, if this mainsail _has_ a 'pre-loaded' (shortened) luff rope; then, after raising to 'just up', the sail will need an extra 3-1/2" - 4" of extra 'luff stretch' via the mainsail halyard. When the sail is properly 'raised and stretched', the angle that the top of the boom will make with the mast (tack angle) will be ~88°. (Be sure your vang is loose, and the mainsheet is 'slack' when you do this luff stretching.)


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## Tim Labute (Jul 25, 2016)

Excellent thank you all!

RichH, I will investigate the draft location next time out. Thank you! I will say that yes, the boat has helm ALWAYS when pointing up. She needs 1/4 to 1/2 wheel turn to maintain course and it is always fighting the main. It isn't difficult because of the steering gear but the rudder angle must be costing me a lot of speed. In club races, a member with the same boat always has me be at least a knot - though that could be due to a multitude of factors.

I will work on luff tension with the specs given as well and see how that goes.

I really appreciate the insight guys!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

you can even lift the boom as you raise the main to get the halyard tension, then set the boom.


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## Tim Labute (Jul 25, 2016)

I should also point out that the boat does not have a Cunningham or vang. Just a main sheet with three attachment points and a topping lift.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

That main needs to be hoisted another foot...looks to me.

Simple test for a main. Hoist it all the way. Cunningham (downhaul) on firm. Pull the outhaul out firmly. Mainsheet on firm. You can do this in the slip in light conditions. The sail must be tight like a hotel bedsheet. If the middle remains baggy...that is the middle is not feeling any tension. The sail is shot. It is good for downwind only. You can throw all the windward trim tips away. It will have atrocious helm balance.

It is even easier to just glance at the sail under the cover. If it is not bright white and crispy stiff it is shot. Zero value for upwind.

Like this: http://www.svsoggypaws.com/images/workshop/Mainsail.jpg


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Topping lift loose?


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## Tim Labute (Jul 25, 2016)

Thanks will give it a try before the race on Thursday!


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

If the boat does not have a mid boom traveller, the main should be vanged at that angle of the boom. You can use a tackle from the boom to the deck or boom to mast to take the twist out of the sail. In any case you'll need a vang when the boom is swung out on a reach or run. From the pic., it looks the main is a good foot short of it's proper hoist. You can have a Cunningham added to the luff of the sail for very little money if you can't get proper luff tension with the sail hoisted to the black band.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Boom looks quite low... which is why many are saying halyard, and ease vang on hoist etc...

I like the idea of lifting the boom some while you are headed upwind while raising the main... So ease vang, and sheet, tension the topping lift to help lift the boom some, then halyard up to the top of the band (as was said), then ease the top lift, vang on, and sheet and see if those scallops come out of the main...

Also I could be wrong, and it might also be skewing the picture, but it looks like sheet is on tight, but traveler is quite low? Judging by the boom angles of all 3 boats, I'd say you were significantly off wind, on what a close reach to a beam? That boom should be skying some like on the [gulp] Hunter, to provide more drive.

Also check the OTHER obvious problems...
Is the bottom clean?
How are your genoa cars, are you getting the proper 45 degrees intersection of the clew on standard setting before you are overpowered (usually about 15 knots?)
That looks like it may be a very small genoa, or a full jib on that furler... If the shape of the genoa is correct (and it may be I dunno again depends on wind), then the main is definitely not. The two should be trimmed to match (first genoa, then main).

Wanna go crazier in this discussion? Rake looks significant on the boat, and it appears to be masthead rig... if you are having excessive weather helm you may have too much rake, or worse too much backstay. That too could be creating that crazy mainsail shape...

But hey I'm just a trailer sailor, what do I know?

But then you also asked it of the general audience, and I dunno when to say when.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Remember: Unless you are a millonair your main is NEVER shot! Untill it rips to shreds you can still have plenty of adustments you can make.

Smartphone do have a camera in them but useless in this case. I cant even see if youve hoisted the main properly. I dont think you have...


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

aloof said:


> That main needs to be hoisted another foot...looks to me.
> 
> Simple test for a main. Hoist it all the way. Cunningham (downhaul) on firm. Pull the outhaul out firmly. Mainsheet on firm. You can do this in the slip in light conditions. The sail must be tight like a hotel bedsheet. If the middle remains baggy...that is the middle is not feeling any tension. The sail is shot. It is good for downwind only. You can throw all the windward trim tips away. It will have atrocious helm balance.
> 
> ...


Even with all the sail controls cranked to max, there should be some shape to the sail, no? The sail in the picture will be smoothed because of the full battens. I'm assuming there is either no wind, or the wind is on the nose, for the purposes of discussion.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

Barquito said:


> Even with all the sail controls cranked to max, there should be some shape to the sail, no? The sail in the picture will be smoothed because of the full battens. I'm assuming there is either no wind, or the wind is on the nose, for the purposes of discussion.


The wind will make some shape, yes. But if the several tensions from trimming hard cannot pull the belly out the sail is shot. (I should have included bending the rig, if applicable, to the list of flattening controls.) And, no, the sail can have some significant time on it and still be good. Mine is several years old with 8000 sea miles on it and can still be trimmed to tighten all the sail cloth. But it is definitely near the end of its useful life by my standards.

Starting from flat, sail shape is easily added by easing one of the controls, or unbending the mast. If it already there...by its age...then the sail is shot.

Yeah, those full battens in the pic I linked do help a bit...but it is the nice flat evenly tensioned appearance I was trying to show.

The OP's sail has an big obvious clue: those big wrinkles pointing from the luff to the clew. Wrinkles like that in a sail always align with the over tension direction. Usually pointing from an under-tensioned edge to an over-tensioned corner.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Take a picture from 45% of the way back from the gooseneck directly up when the sail is set. In about 10kn of breeze while beating upwind. 

My guess is that the sail probably is shot, but that's just on averages. Almost every boat sold has blown sails. The picture is almost useless to diagnose it.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Lots of good advice above. Half a turn of wheel to fight weather helm could definitely be a knot slower than a sisteship. It could be due to the shape of the main and also the position of the traveler or boom. You can have a beautiful new main, trimmed nicely and perfectly full, but if the boom is midships it may be creating more weather helm than forward movement. We find that easing the main traveler to leeward can get the boat moving faster and does a lot to reduce helm. Don't know what your setup is, but having something that can adjust the angle of the boom relative to the wind can be a big help.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Tim-
"In club races, a member with the same boat "
So, track them down, and threaten them with grave bodily harm if they won't come sailing with you and compare notes on trim and rig.
Oh, wait, a simple hello might work without the threats.

A real racer would just misdirect you, to slow you down. But I don't think you guys are in the titanium block and longboarded hull division, anyway.(G)


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

hellosailor said:


> Tim-
> "In club races, a member with the same boat "
> So, track them down, and threaten them with grave bodily harm if they won't come sailing with you and compare notes on trim and rig.
> Oh, wait, a simple hello might work without the threats.
> ...


Nobody uses titanium blocks anymore, everyone has swapped to friction rings and soft shackles.

But in all honesty most non-paid racers will do whatever they can to help. Now if you show up at a Melgus 24 worlds and ask a guy who gets paid expenses for showing and $1,000 per place above 15th...ya he won't help much.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Racing against other boats will sort you out.
You just look at the sails of the boats going past you and copy.

And, yes, another racer will give you some tips or come and have a look. Just because someone has won a tin mug it doesnt mean they turn into jerks.

Mark
Ps is there a cunningham eye? Has it been tried? Might fix some flop.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

make boom parallel with water with topping lift, then raise your sail fully, using halyard. 
pic shows that the main is not fully raised-see the lumpy sail at the mast--that shauld be flat. raiising that last foot is not an absolutely simple task to achieve, but, if you seriously wish to trim that thing, you NEED to raise it fully.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Sail trim in the picture in the first post is awful as others have said. Follow the hints you have gotten here and things will definitely get better. How much better is hard to say. Maybe enough to make you happy. Or maybe you will put new sails on the wish list.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Friction rings...I absolutely just MUST get with the times. I still call them "blocks" and keep the friction rings with the other sex toys.(VBG)


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Has anyone asked how old the sail is? If it's more than 10 years, replace it.

Keep in mind, there will be people chiming in about their 30 year old cross cut dacron that is still "going strong". But they are kidding themselves, and have never sailed a boat with new sails on it. Or are so terribly bad at trimming it, that they don't know the difference.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

zz4gta said:


> Has anyone asked how old the sail is? If it's more than 10 years, replace it.


 That depends. Sails made of excellent quality dacron sailcloth can give excellent service for many years if cared for properly and not abused.

If you're a serious racer competing against other serious racers, you'll want near perfect sails. If you're a cruiser and casual racer or pursuit racer in charity events, you can be happy with older sails, if they still have satisfactory shape. Depending on how the boat is used, not everyone needs perfect or near perfect sails. I'm a serious racer and just bought a new racing sail this year, but I have spent many pleasant days cruising with friends on their boats with old, UV shadowed sails. What's good advice for a serious racer isn't necessarily good for a casual cruiser or laid-back old retiree.

Sails are the "engine" that drives your boat. Whether you want or need a six cylinder or a high powered V8 is your choice.

My advice is, if you intend to keep the boat for a long time, buy sails made with good quality sailcloth. They'll provide better service over a longer time.


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## Tim Labute (Jul 25, 2016)

Hey all thanks so much for the advice. Following it I picked up a 3rd place in the next race by working the main halyard up and better trimming. You are awesome!

Also, I have since borrowed a main from the guy with the same boat and proven without a doubt that my main is toast. His on my boat buys me almost two full knots.

In that pic we were on a close reach in about 15knots under about 75% of the jib off the roller. I had reduced because we had been sailing home for 5 hours from another port and we were tired.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Tim thanks for the follow up to your own thread... it helps others immensely to hear that you actually DID identify a blown out sail.

I love the "cruisers can live for YEARS with older dacron" well, Ok... I get that.. but I think sails should be pretty important to ALL sailors, NO? Just because you are a cruiser doesn't mean you shouldn't spend money on new clothes. OK maybe your focus should be on upgrading the refrigeration unit first, but the sails should be in there somewhere, maybe between the DC blender and the electric winch upgrades, mmmmm K?


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Tim Labute said:


> Hey all thanks so much for the advice. Following it I picked up a 3rd place in the next race by working the main halyard up and better trimming. You are awesome!
> 
> Also, I have since borrowed a main from the guy with the same boat and proven without a doubt that my main is toast. His on my boat buys me almost two full knots.
> 
> In that pic we were on a close reach in about 15knots under about 75% of the jib off the roller. I had reduced because we had been sailing home for 5 hours from another port and we were tired.


Toast ??????
Do/verify the luff measurements from my previous thread to determine if your bolt rope has shrunken. OR, raise the sail to 'just up' and verify that the top of the boom makes an angle of 89° to the mast. If no ... add about 4" of extra halyard strain and then see if the tack angle is ~ 89°. If yes, go win some pewter; if not, get a new sail. Sails must be 'set' by shaping them once they're up; one cannot simply raise a sail to 'just up' and expect any performance out of them.
For racing, set your mainsail OUTHAUL tension to get the maximum speed reading (VMG is better) when beating - if so, then its an automatic 'set' between the correct amount of speed shape vs. power shape for the exact wind and sea state conditions at that time. If this fails to get you a close 'place' in your fleet vs. similar rated boats; then, consider new sails. *THE* most important sail control when racing is OUTHAUL tension!!!!!


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## Turnin Turtle (Jun 25, 2016)

I'll guarantee that my 1981 sails are blown out of shape... Still good enough for "playing" on the local lake until I order new ones.


A good portion of your results are how you use what you've got.

You can manage the sail trim to compensate for old sails. That may not be competitive for racing but its just fine for having a good time sailing.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Sailormon6 said:


> That depends. Sails made of excellent quality dacron sailcloth can give excellent service for many years if cared for properly and not abused.


A bit vague don't you think? In most cases with a used boat, you rarely, and I do mean very rarely, get sails that are worth more than a drop cloth. I've seen a few. And more often than not, people cheap out on sails when they get hit with sticker shock. I haven't seen a 10 year old dacron sail hold it's design shape. Sorry. I'm talking design shape, not a white triangle that moves the boat. The original poster was referring to racing, not aimlessly drifting around in the direction the wind blows.



> Sails are the "engine" that drives your boat. Whether you want or need a six cylinder or a high powered V8 is your choice.


Bad analogy. Think of sail area to displacement ratio as potential performance of a boat. That determines whether you have a V8 or V6. The sail's condition determines weather or not that V6 or V8 is running properly and efficiently.



Tim Labute said:


> Also, I have since borrowed a main from the guy with the same boat and proven without a doubt that my main is toast. His on my boat buys me almost two full knots.


How old was your sail?


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## Tim Labute (Jul 25, 2016)

Does every thread turn into an argument?


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