# What I think of the boats at the Strictly Sail Chicago



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Finally got to see these boats up close, after all had 2 whole days to do it...

This I write here, is my opinion only, don't like it? good...move along..I am not a boat critic, it's just whatI saw.

Let me tell you right away, that I would not spend money on any of the boats there...but..that's just me..nothing there I liked, which validates more and more my choice...MAKE YOUR BOAT!!!!

I may add something more to this, as we go along, but here is what I think of the boats, per brand, not any model; in particular..these are my general impressions on the brands...(off course I didn't sail on them..Chicago had a contract to sell ice to the rest of the world)...

Please, if any of you owns one of these boats, please don't think I am attacking the boats or you, it's just what, as an outsider saw, and think..only that...it's free, so if you want better, call Botin & Carkeek, or Vrojlik...

*Hunter*...well, I looked outside, and inside, and under and in and out...and this is what I saw..

They first built a bed, then a bed table, then a cabinet, then, to separate it from the rest, they made a wall, then put a toilet, then a kitchen...then..someone realized they are in the boat building industry, and had a guy put a hull around it...do it fast, before someone comes here....

Incredibly large inside, some pretty cool ideas, and stuff, but...but....but...had a "fake" feeling to it...altough I didn't see much plastic...it looked like the feel you get from a plastic dashboard trying to imitate leather....it's hard to explain..did'nt care for the keel attachment, and I could almost swear one of them boats had a tilted keel...!!??? maybe I need glasses. The inside looked a little on the weak (strenght wise) side.

I found the aft berth amazing, but the slapping water noise at the stern may take some time to get used to.

Outside was a little of a deception...cheap material on the deck hardware, the blocks suck..horrible mast and rig material, and the chainplates bolted on the outside...no..not for me.. The glass looked good, but also looked weak and thin...

The deck is enormous, you can almost play the superbowl there, BUT..again a weird feeling of Plastic dashboard.

I like inovation and new ideas, and admit the back stay system is great for a relaxed sailor, I found the arch an interesting concept, and since the boat seeks no performance, per se, why not make life easier)), I liked it, UNDER that point of view. BUT, again, the hardware, was really bad, and cheap...for them the solution to assure high loads is bigger larger stuff, rather than well engineered smaller stuff..

Don't care for the keels at all, and the rudders...well..leave it there, (if I bought one, it would be the first thing I would throw away)..and redesign, especially that shaft..ykes

its an affordable relaxed coastal vacation sailboat, perfect for weekends, and small to medium COASTAL cruising. I would not venture more than 100 miles from the coast, (as they come from the factory), but modified..I would.

Would I take one to the Caribbean?? YES!!

Space to spare and some cool ideas, I can see why it is so popular, it takes large spaces to see with confort, and ease of sail.

Overall, inside is a boat I would buy, for the occaional weekend with friends, but not a boat to sail, or for my kind of sailing. Some of the pumps and stuff inside could be better material. The wood work was weak.

Outside, I find a hard boat to digest, has some details that are not so pretty, and make the boat look clumsy, complicated (to the eye), and in some angle, not so pretty (sorry).

I didn't even look at the other Frankestein they had there...it shouldn't be there in the first place...and I am talking about ther McGrehunter. I vomited my Billy goat burger...uke

So, if I was a weekend sailor, with kids and friends, and limited sailing skills or crew...I would buy one, but modify a lot.

*Catalina*..well, here is a boat where I get mixed feelings...(I saw the 400), didn't find it as great as CD paints it, (sorry CD, will explain why), and in CD's photos, inside, looked bigger..then once I went down it was not as large as I had imagined, in fact my boat has almost the same space, at half the weight..BUT, I understood why...the furniture is miniature...when you take a photo, you can't judge the size, but once you look for real...the furniture is small and scaled down...that glass cabinet behind the galley is really small, yet in CD's photos looks big. Nothing wrong with it, but inside, I may prefer the Hunter. I iked the beds, and the heads, but the white plastic inside was a weird thing..the cloth and materials, also looked a little on the economical side..I didn't care much for the sallon seats at all.
But overall inside wood and cnstruction is pretty good..really is.

If they carried that interior, and put it on a beneteau hull...it would be perfect...maybe Beneteau should buy catalina.

I see why and that boat being a Coastal cruiser, maybe faster than the Hunters, and with that boat, I would pass the 100 mile line from the coast, but, not go pass the 200 mile. Would modify a lot.

Outside, I found absolutely no need for a double steering, (I think it's a sales gimmick), and it had a weird feeling, they were really low, maybe to steer while seating down. The cockpit was nice, well laid and practical. The wheels are good stuff though, and manouvers seem easy.

The deck hardware, by Garhauer, is not my favorite, maybe strong, and reliable, but looks like it was hand made with a hammer, and nails...(one of the reasons i don't like Garhauer..it's great material, but damn heavy and ugly, altough now he's making a anodized blak series, that looks better..but..not for me..not yet).

The main sheet system..NO..it's crap, they could have put a harken or a Lewmar, but I understand...price cuts..so that will do fine.

EXCELLENT choice of hatches, and hatch location, clear inside, well lit.

The glass is better, and the boat breaths some more sturdiness than the previous boat. The keel...no, I would modify that, too, and the rudder while we're at it, but the shaft can stay.

Would I buy one if I were to do sailing like CD, or visit the islands?? YES...a perfect boat for weekends, small and medium coastal cruises, and some passages with the right changes..It's a boat I would buy with confidence, knowing few systems will fail, but, add $50.000 to my budget and get a new mast, a better boom, modify the keel and replace all stuff with Lewmar/Harken Ocean series deck hardware.

Now...the only thing I dislike..it's the design, the sillouette, and the stern...

I don't think catalina is adapting the design to the current tendencies, or those of the last 10 years, those bows belong in the 1970's, the boat I saw seemed (to the eye) a little unbalanced, (they had a Catalina mixed with another brand I can't remember the name), and they looked more modern, but the bows, I am sorry, they aren't that pretty, and the bow is short (from mast to bow), and the angle is too aggressive..

Overall..between the Hunter and the Catalina, maybe I would tend towards a Catalina, if the money was not an issue.

In all, I liked it, and would buy one under certain conditions, I find it a good value for the money..good buy.

*Island Packet*..ha..it's an O.S....if you know what i mean..(defenately not for me) has a keel as thick as that of the USS Eagle...hughe freeboard, it's a boat to cruise around and go places...but....bring a lot of diesel..(and don't invite people..they don't fit inside.

The boat seemed the best build of all boats there, (even better than the Tartans).

Solid interior, but heavy on the eye, and heavy materials. Also seemed very small inside...Liked the galley and the heads.

Excellet care in the finish..

I didn't understand why that boat has as much space under the floorboards, than above..It would be a good boat to carry sardines or 45.000lbs of Smuggled coffee...but on a sailboat??I don't know...

Inside, one breathes quality, not like a Swan or a HR, but damn good finish and feel. I liked the interior.

Outside..I went around once, and walked out..Its a boat with a mast and sails..not a sailboat. I would commit suicide after sailing on it for a week..

The cockpit is a joke, it's small and God forbid a wave decide to make itself invited..

Now...I would take that boat across the atlantic, the way it is..just add water and diesel...but studdy the windsm so one woulnd't have to sail upwind.

I would not buy it, last on my list of choices there, but only because it's not my thing,..and too exensive for what it is. The anchor locker was good enough to hide a missile base, and probably built to last a nuclear hollocaust.

The colour??? Good thing I was wearing polarized sunglasses...someone at IP, is colour blind.

Last on my choice. But none the less an excellent boat, for quiet sunday sails and go to the US, via the Azores.

*JBoats*...what the hell??? You saw the one on 1989?? it's the same boat..well not exactly, this one didn't have a sheer line painted on it..

No doubt a fast boat, with a lot of races and events, but please...it's getting old...they didn't change a thing...since Colombo arrived in the Dominican..it's almost like Ferrari, same engine block since 1965...

Maybe they should design a new boat..do something...J boats are excellent sailors, and believe it or not, I would sail the Atlantic with one..

It's a racer, so don't look for waffle makers inside, and expect to bang your head in the bulkhead when cleaning your butt...

The build is good, excellent well engineered deck stuff....
MY boat for sure.

Now...the price is ridiculous..you can have a boat built in Cratia or Slovenia, for half the price, and sail around the J...it's almost like the shirts with logo..you end up payiong more for the logo than fpr the boat.

Move along....

*Tartan*..good choice of colour on the hulls, by Tartan..."patriotic blue" can make the ugliest boat look good...not that they are ugly...but....in white, you would see a different boat..

they cheated with the sheer lines, and to make the boat look balanced, the water line stripes are thick and larger at the bow, to give one the visual effect.

I entered the boats, looking back, just in case the mafia would kill me..but...good thing...I saw the man...I heard some real prime time BS, (we have more on that later).

I liked the tartans a lot, and believe it or not, I would chose a tartan after the J boat...but I don't cruise much..

The quality was good, but, one can see they are cutting corners...open doors and cabinets, and the finish is not as it should be. It's not inovative, and looks boring inside..The quality of what you see is good, but behind is not so good.

The did an excellent job finishing the wood behing the sofas, then "nailed" velcro stripes to hold the pillows...really cheap...

The heads were spacious, and the boat has class inside.

Outside, the boat's have excellent finish and material, didn't find much about the rigs.

they have Volvo engines...so good bye..

*
C&C*...I am not talking much about this boat, the 115..I like the looks and the layout, hated the wheel.

The model on display was cracked at the bow, between the bow and the keel, on the stbd side.

I didn't poke around, but as soon as possible I will post the photos, for those that don't believe me..which does nothing to change my opinion on the boat..

I saw a 121 last year, and my opinion is made...STAY AWAY...not for me...what happened here at Sailnet doesn't help either..so I started already suspicious.

I also (altough not 100% sure, because as soon as me and Jim started poking around, a "guard dog" came looking at us, and looked like he was going to bark), saw that the chain plates were not attached to the hull, BUt to the back of the sallon sofas!! I kid you not..I tried to put my hand behind it...but the guy looking down from the companion way looked mean...look on the website yourself, on the interior photos...

I would love to hear from owners of 115 if this is in fact as I hope it's not.

The boat is so sexy and pretty, and sails pretty good, I was told.

There was a lot of BS at the reception desk there, when we asked the dealer about warranties..he said that the warranty is given by the dealer, that NOvis owns Tartan /C&C, and when asked if he wouild sign the guarantee...he looked down, smilled, took some time (realized we're not buying a boat), and said..yes!

I am tried..

Still have Beneteau, jeanneau, tghe dream Open 6.50, and more...

I'll add more later..don't go too far

Mostly I saw that everyone of them used cheap rigs...there is much better for a few bucks more to equip these boats, so as far as booms, masts, etc...it was very disappointing to see they are all opting for the cheaper masts each manufacturer makes...sad....


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## j34035 (Nov 10, 2006)

Alex,
What model J's were there at the show?
DD


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

G- I'm dying to hear your review on the Hanse 400!!!!! It's not a boat I was familiar with prior to the show, but after looking at it, and crawling around on/in it I went home a have been studying up on it. I'm pretty impressed. It seems to fit the production boat concept (german version), but with a more modern hull design and a well thought out interior with lots of options to choose from. A few ideas that would be scoffed at by some, but are very practical in the real world. ie. There is a desk in the forward stateroom (if you choose the single head configuration), but no chart table on the boat.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

j34035 said:


> Alex,
> What model J's were there at the show?
> DD


100, 105, 109


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

T34C said:


> G- I'm dying to hear your review on the Hanse 400!!!!! It's not a boat I was familiar with prior to the show, but after looking at it, and crawling around on/in it I went home a have been studying up on it. I'm pretty impressed. It seems to fit the production boat concept (german version), but with a more modern hull design and a well thought out interior with lots of options to choose from. A few ideas that would be scoffed at by some, but are very practical in the real world. ie. There is a desk in the forward stateroom (if you choose the single head configuration), but no chart table on the boat.


My thoughts exactly. This was my favorite boat of the show.

First the bad things...

I thought the rig was simplified.... self tacking jib and such... I also didn't like "hiding" the lines in the debris catchers on deck...

The deck hardware was a bit undersized and in general the running rigging needed some upgrades. (Of what I saw).

I thought the Teak Decks in the cockpit looked flimsy and cheap. I don't think it was teak. I wouldn't go for that option.

Wasn't the hull construction epoxy? The displacement was about 18k if I remember correctly. Which is on the heavy side for a 40 footer. I asked about the PHRF and I think they are gonna come in about 120ish. For a 40 footer... eh...

EDIT: I THINK I AM WRONG ON THE PHRF... SHOULD BE BELOW 100 (easy) for THAT SIZE BOAT.

Apparently she doesn't like large chutes ... this according to the rep...

The Good Things...

I thought belowdecks was tremendous. Great Euro-trash Styling with good fit and finish.

The boat had nice lines... Sexy to look at and easy on the eye. Fat A$$ Mmmmmmm

Removable open transom thingy. Why again? Seems like a lot of cost for a removable dock box. Hmmmm Ok.. It did look good removed.

Twin wheels.. but I didn't get a chance to sit at the helm... could be a gimmick.

I wonder what they chose for spars... I saw alot of low end Selden (no offense people) spars out there... I'm guessing Hanse didn't go down that road.

The best feature of this boat? THE PRICE.

$215k sailaway with everything but electronics....

Structurally, I'm interested in hearing Gui's observations...


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

craigtoo said:


> My thoughts exactly. This was my favorite boat of the show.
> 
> First the bad things...
> 
> ...


Displacement approx. 18,519 lbs.
17,417 if you spend the $12K to upgrade to epoxy. Rep we talked to recommended upgrading to epoxy and then upgrading the keel and putting the 1000 lbs down there. PHRF #'s that I saw looked to be around 78. (could be wrong)

A whole lot of boat for the money with a lot more usable space that other 40 footers. Here's a pic I took with my phone of the interior.







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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

I noticed G- forgot to "review" the only boat he did get to sail... the one that I kicked his butt all around the race course with, the CR-914. (RC boat from Chesapeake Performance Models) He'll probably come back with some lame excuse about needing his Loos guage to check the rigging before racing next time!


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

I really could be wrong on the PHRF... I should probably edit that from my post... I remember the J boat was a 70 something... (shorter than the Hanse)..

You'll notice the Euro-trash interior in the photo's above. It screams trendy club music - ultra thin waifs wearing black - and small cups of coffee... 

NICE.


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

T34,

The Hanse was my favorite boat of the show . . . 'til Alex took a Pee it the forward locker. Out of all the 40 foot boats I've seen it's my favorite. The only problem for me would be the 65 foot bridge clearance and 97 foot draft. That's why they don't sell them down here.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

We saw one of the Hanses a couple of years ago at the Seattle show, wife like them! I had no issues with the 60 some odd foot mast height, no bridges to worry about! nor the 97' draft, as I am usually in 600' of water, so I have plenty of room! So what are the issue with the Hanse again?

Marty


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I will leave the Hanse to the end..I sailed one last year, same boat, different keel...It was one of my favorite too.

*Beneteau*...These are really good boats, that sail well, probably the best of all productions. I like them a lot, and it's true, quality has come downhill since the last decade..but most mass production boats have too...
Beneteau doesn't care, they have thousands of conquered customers. Right now, between the Catalina, Hunter, Jeanneau, Bavaria and Beneteau, I prefer the Beneteau..and would be able to accept the sacrifice of the weird interior, because the boats really sail good. And me?? I want a sailboat.

The Beneteau interiors are what we call American interiors, and you guys call them Euro interiors..

Truth is no one wants them, including my friend, the dealer back home, that said: Oh God..that's not going to help, when he saw them in 2007..:laugher

Inside..it's weird, cheap, light, and what not, but it's a trend...it's modern, and at anchor, in coastal cruising is a good option...

The Beneteau uses good masts (Charleston Spar - Sparcraft), which is the mast the Hanse uses. Thedeck gear is good, and then in the first series, the boats are a dream to sail...and I am happy the obsolete Farr designs are gone..

Still sail one and you will see what a great boat thye are.

Beneteau are coastal sailing boats, with more focus on the sailing than the liveaboard features.

*Jeanneau*..it's like a Beneteau, but cheaper, altough I admit the little Sun fast they showed this year is a fresh of clean air..In the previous years, the Sun fast was just a Sun odissey with a better keel and a fractional rig...

Now it's a completely new boat..nice boat indeed..twin rudder, and all...and go fast paint schemes..even anchored the boat looks fast..let's see how it does...I would gladly have one...but thye are too small...

I don't care much for the DS series, and the Performance is a little disappointing...I have a friend that bought a 49 preformance, and is very disapointed, with the lack of it, and now can't return it.

The boat's have some good features and room and are perfect along side the catalinas, beneteau Hunter etc. for near coastal, and weekends.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Now, the* Hanse*..Jim..if you remember, I took you there, and even before we went up, I told you you would like it, and it was the best boat there.

I know them well, and if you remember well, my crazy neighbour, re-did the interior of his...remember a 371?? altough his was the 2005 model...I admit I like it a little more than the new one..

In my eyes, the comings are really ugly, fat and disporpotional, and as the boat size increases, its getts better...that makes the boat look like its bow heavy..Which they are by the way..so carefull on keel choice..

It's hard to see, unless you go on the boat and sail and look at it from the outside...the cabin continues almost staright into the top of the coamings, and makes the boat look like a hunchback...or like a bath tub..reminds me of those weird Swedish designs of the 70's...

The Hanse is by far the best buy / boat (given the conditions), at the show, and the one I would buy of all productiosn..BUT...

Inside, it's "Seher Deutsch", clean, square, well built, but uses a lot of Ikea material (really..the hinges etc, are not maritime material)..which is OK..once it rusts, just go to the Home depot and get new for a dollar a dozen.

The wood on the floor inside is really bad, and the keel they had on the boat..is a sales gimmick...the torpedo sells !!

They put a torpedo on a fat wide keel...2 steps forward..one back

They have a much better keel, without the torpedoe that sails better, and they also have (at leats in Europe) a better rudder. The other keel i refer too is pear shapped and has the lead on the bottom aft, but the majority is behind the training edge, which in my opinion balances the boat much better...

Hanse has small deck gear, not because it is poor or badly designed, (as you guys in the US believe..if a boat has small whinches its bad), but because the gear was designed to be less load demanding...and hence the boat saves weight in whinches etc..to me a good sign, not a bad one...

I really like the self tacking jib, whose sheet is fed up into the mast saving the complicated booms (a la Hoyt), and the go and return of lines.. Simple clean efficient..after all its Deutsch...I wouldn't want a self tacking, but were I a weeken one man show..bet your hindend I would..besides, the boat can have another sail, regular size and not selftacking as the gear for a normal sail comes from the factory..

Another weakness the boat has is the water exits for bildges etc.., they are near the deck..the one I sailed allowed water in when sailing.

I don't particularly care for the embeded hatches, looks good, but no thanks, (Dehler went that way too),

Other than that..It's my favorite there..

Now get this..Hanse uses the same profile of mast that I use on my boat.. My mast is a Sparcraft performance series, and hanse uses the same Performance mast, but the standard, not the custom version.

The mast is probably one of the best in the market, as far as Aluminium masts go..I swear.

Now..my choices..from that sallon

All out racing - Open 6.50 (what else?)
IOD racing - Melges
Coastal and Friendly races - Jeanneau Sunfast
Cruising with the family in the Summer - Hanse
Dinghy - didn't seeone I liked....(and I hate the SB3)
Visiting Sway in the US...TAP AIR PORTUGAL!!!

There were a few dinghies there, but I was too busy buying sails, and cool things..

If I can be of any assistance, please don't hesitate

Alex


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Alex

How plain was the interior if you will for the SF3200? and does it look like it would be sailible by 2 or single handed as it is advertised for? Also, the designer now owns one for himself, so he must like it. This boat is supposidly the pet project for the pres of Jeanneau in France, hence the look of a V60 or half of one per say. US Jeanneau Pres has had it up to 18 knots, and it has done well in some single/doublehanded off shore races, including a 1D class in the transquandra.

Looks interesting for myself for local stuff. Not sure if spouse will like it tho, but she is getting more and more thinking it might work.

Marty


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Marty

It's a prety nice boat, and anyone that has a little expereince can sail it pretty well. It has boom end sheet, and the genao winches are near by.

To help sales and make the boat look mean, thay installed 2 rudders with 2 tillers..I wouldn't..not in a boat thys small..but makes it look racey..

Now..note, it's a boat without lazy bags or furlers..so you need a little experience or help with regards to getting the sails down...if you are alone. But he boat is small so you should do OK.

2 can handle it very well, and the inside is quite spartan, and rude..the boat only has 2 aft cabins, quite low roof, parallel sallon, and a minimal head in the bow...

I think you would love it for what you want...

I used to like Jeanneau a lot..then in 2000, lost the love..looks like they have decided to bring back the boat..if only they stopped the Odiseey series, and made it better sailing


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Most importantly Alex, what did you think of the Rum I sent home with Tim and Julie?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

What is a lazy bag and a furler? 

I would have prefered a BIG wheel personally, but I have heard the twin tillers are not that bad to work with. The twin rudders help it hang on to higher winds from what I have heard. I knew the interior was sparten, but what do you mean by "rude"? I do not expect this to be like my Arcadia, ie 85 Tony Castro Jeanneau, but it should be faster. The cabin was short? Local dealer was on it, and he is 6'2" or about 2M and said he had head room...............I would assume the head has minimum needs, toilet and a sink, don't think it has HW which would be nice......... 

I figure it should not be an issue for 3-5 days, with stops at marina's or a B&B or equal at the marina to keep spouse happy. I am not too happy with the newest Odisyees either, the DS version, yee gads, remind me of an 80's bayliner buccuneer!


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## micksbuddy (Aug 11, 2006)

*not much headroom*

I'm 5'10" and my head was brushing the ceiling on the SF3200, so barely standing headroom, depending on your height.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

chucklesR said:


> Most importantly Alex, what did you think of the Rum I sent home with Tim and Julie?


Ahhh thank you Chuck! Sorry I forgot to thank you!. sorry.

Rum and Coke zero!! very good

Thank you!!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> What is a lazy bag and a furler?
> 
> I would have prefered a BIG wheel personally, but I have heard the twin tillers are not that bad to work with. The twin rudders help it hang on to higher winds from what I have heard. I knew the interior was sparten, but what do you mean by "rude"? I do not expect this to be like my Arcadia, ie 85 Tony Castro Jeanneau, but it should be faster. The cabin was short? Local dealer was on it, and he is 6'2" or about 2M and said he had head room...............I would assume the head has minimum needs, toilet and a sink, don't think it has HW which would be nice.........
> 
> I figure it should not be an issue for 3-5 days, with stops at marina's or a B&B or equal at the marina to keep spouse happy. I am not too happy with the newest Odisyees either, the DS version, yee gads, remind me of an 80's bayliner buccuneer!


Marty the lazy bag is that bag I have on my boom, that collects the main when you drop it..the furler is the roller at the bow to roll the genoa.

no..the cabin does not offend you when you walk in...it's actually quite polite...

What I meant by rude is there is no roundness or body friendly features. The furniture is sharp and staright.. the head room is quite limited.

YOu can have a water heater installed, and for up to a week is a great boat..

Like I said..I liked it

But disagree with the twin rudders...that's a sales gimmick...doesn't need it, really..it's not that beamy...go fast stripes..


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> *Hunter*...well, ....it's hard to explain..did'nt care for the keel attachment, and I could almost swear one of them boats had a tilted keel...!!??? maybe I need glasses. ...
> 
> The deck hardware, by Garhauer, is not my favorite, maybe strong, and reliable, but looks like it was hand made with a hammer, and nails...(one of the reasons i don't like Garhauer..it's great material, but damn heavy and ugly, altough now he's making a anodized blak series, that looks better..but..not for me..not yet).


Giulietta,

Thanks for the great write-up! I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on these production boats.

Regarding the Hunter keel being tilted, that is because it is the northern hemisphere version. They also have a southern hemisphere keel, tilted the opposite direction to take best advantage of the Coriolis Effect. ( )

I have to agree with you about the Garhauer hardware. It definitely has a sturdy look about it, but at the same time it seems a bit clunky to me.

Wouldn't it be interesting to design our own production boat? Something like this:

Beneteau/Farr Hull
Tartan "Beavertail" Lead Keel
Catalina Interior (?)
Hanse (Charleston/Sparcraft) Rig
Harken/Lewmar Hardware
Yanmar Propulsion
???
Reasonable $$$
A dream world where all this could really happen


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

*Alex, thanks for the tip on TAP AIR!!! *

As for the boat show... i'm filled with envy. We don't have any boat shows around here that are worth a crap. They are all stinkpots with an occasional Hunter, Catalina & Mac thrown in for the sailors. The best "boat show" i've ever been to was walking the docks in Cascais... there are so many awesome boats there.


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> no..the cabin does not offend you when you walk in...it's actually quite polite...


:laugher :laugher :laugher


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## morgan5152 (Jun 4, 2007)

GIU,

You spoke favorably of the older Beneteau's, What year range do you favor for say 32' to 36'? I am asking as that size range is where I will be looking when I move up someday.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Funny your comment on the Catalina. I want to like those boats more than perhaps I do and it's the sillouette. Something with it just does not work for me.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> Giulietta,
> 
> *You can call me Alex*
> 
> ...


John, that is exactly why I had my boat built..

1) I chose a hull I wanted, liked and knew would perform, (which then in 2005was only the IRC champion, and still is)
2) I installd a lead keel the way I wanted, (well the design people changed my opinion, later, but I agreed, so I decided)
3) I have a really nice interior, that is I think as good if not better than a catalina's
4) I do have a custom Sparcraft rig
5) I have yanmar propulsion
6) assuming what it is, the tag on my boat was reasonable..not cheap, but faire and just

So you see, the dream boat (for me), already exists...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Joel73 said:


> * The best "boat show" i've ever been to was walking the docks in Cascais... there are so many awesome boats there. *


*

That boat show is open everyday, from 8 am to 7:59 am:laugher :laugher

just come on in..admission is free*


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

Thanks Alex for writing up all those boats. You hit the nail on the head when you said the boat manufactures are making their boats with cheaper parts and materials to keep cost down. It was very evident at the Annapolis boat show. My 2006 boat is made so much better than the 2009. I wouldn't even consider the 2009 boat if I was in the market again for a boat. I am afraid with the world economy going down the toilet, boat manufactures are going to cheapen their boats even more. Island Packet this week just closed their doors until orders start coming in. I am hearing other US production manufactures are doing the same. The marine industry is in for another Force 12 storm like they experience in the 1980's.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Melrna said:


> ...Island Packet this week just closed their doors until orders start coming in....


Melrna,

That is news to me!! Wow. Do you have a link to any article where this was reported?

Predictions on who will be next?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

morgan5152 said:


> GIU,
> 
> You spoke favorably of the older Beneteau's, What year range do you favor for say 32' to 36'? I am asking as that size range is where I will be looking when I move up someday.


I have allways liked Beneteau..mainly because we have so many where I live and because they did good with the first series..

I stopped liking them when in 2002 they went from the normal cabin shape to the one that is lower near the mast, as if someone punched the boat on top.

From there on, it's just not as good as it was, cheaper finish, etc..

If I were to buy a used beneteau today, I would not want one older than 1996-97 or newer than 2001..my choice would be a first off course, the 40.7, and for cruising, the 361..it's a really nice boat. get a good mast and boom on it, and what a boat.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

Alex,

Thanks for the write up, very interesting to hear your thoughts.



Giulietta said:


> *Catalina[/B
> If they carried that interior, and put it on a beneteau hull...it would be perfect...
> *


*

Funny thing is that that is exactly what the wife and I have been saying during our search for a new boat&#8230;.

Catalina 400 and Beneteau 423 where the two boats on our short list&#8230;*


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

John - I know people their and other boat manufactures. Major layoffs going on now in the marine industry. New boat orders are down to nothing right now. The orders from the Annapolis boat show most have been rescinded. Boat manufactures have new boats built sitting on their production floors. Until those are sold, and new orders start coming in, layoffs/doors closed will be the norm. Trust me when I say the marine industry is on their knees right now for new orders from the Sailboat Shows going on now thru the spring.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

What mast and boom was on the 400 that you saw?

What would you change about the rudder?

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Melrna said:


> John - I know people their and other boat manufactures. Major layoffs going on now in the marine industry. New boat orders are down to nothing right now. The orders from the Annapolis boat show most have been rescinded. Boat manufactures have new boats built sitting on their production floors. Until those are sold, and new orders start coming in, layoffs/doors closed will be the norm. Trust me when I say the marine industry is on their knees right now for new orders from the Sailboat Shows going on now thru the spring.


I had not heard about IP, but am not surprised. There will be/are many others. Anyone wanting to ask me about Catalina... don't. They don't share that with me and I have no idea.

Brian


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Alex,

Actually I do know what a lazy bag and a roller furler is, that what are they are they was ment more as a joke, as I do not have them on my current boat, nor have I thought about them for new boat either, other than maybe a roller furler. The main on the 3200 is not much bigger than my Arcadia. May have to look at specs, 300 sq ft for the 3200 vs 200 for current.

I've heard that with the bow sprit it could do a AS furler really easy, which would be nice if S Handing. and may be a removable drum jib furler. I'd keep the main loose footed as is. 

Thanks for info

Marty


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> What mast and boom was on the 400 that you saw?
> 
> What would you change about the rudder?
> 
> Brian


Brian,

the mast wasn't there, but the guy told me they use Selden (a very good mast brand), BUT they only come in the roller furler. If I wanted a standard mast I'd have to pay as they will not sell it from factory.

Where I come from, all masts are standard, THEN if you want the roller fulers you pay extra..having to pay extra for something that is cheaper doesn't make any sense to me...but everyone need to eat..I guess...

The mast is also deck stepped, and I am not a great fan of that either.

As for the rudder, it's too chuncky..it's a sailboat, not an Alaska crab fishing boat...

That shaft would be reused, but the rudder I would chose would have to be thiner, lighter, narrower and longer...small changes that make a difference..

I would probably change the keel too...

Alex


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## painkiller (Dec 20, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Where I come from, all masts are standard, THEN if you want the roller fulers you pay extra..having to pay extra for something that is cheaper doesn't make any sense to me...but everyone need to eat..I guess...


I had to pay extra for my "Classic" (non-furling) main when I bought my Beneteau. I think the furling mains are becoming standard on all of the production boats. I hate furling mains. uke


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

The inmast furling is probably here to stay - much to the disdain of many sailors.

The problem, may I say the only problem, with the inmast is the loss of performance. It is not huge, but I certainly can tell the difference. I have always wondered if you could rig an inmast with a standard main (raise and lower like a standard main). I am not sure why you would not.

The spar does have another track on it (port side) to run a standard sail - though I think the intention there is for a trysail. I have discussed this in depth with Charleston. The theory is that you would use the inmast for normal use, the secondary slot for a trysail or other sail for storm conditions. The trick, as always, is to reef early.

I have also discussed the concern of the sail getting stuck in a storm. Charleston has no reported issues of that happening on ANY new stick. They said that was a problem with the older inmasts. 

I do not want to redirect this discussion to inmast versus trad mains... so we will leave it there. I simply thought it was worth mentioning.

Brian

PS Just an FYI - NO WAY my wife would go back to a traditional main. She hated it. But my wife was not rail meat... she actually sailed the boat too. And she found it very difficult fo her to raise the main on our 380 by herself and single the boat. I think inmasts have many positives that are often overlooked by the more traditional sailors in us.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Ahhh thank you Chuck! Sorry I forgot to thank you!. sorry.
> 
> Rum and Coke zero!! very good
> 
> Thank you!!


You're welcome!!


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Alex, I just made sure you got some, Xort is who I stole it from 

I didn't check luggage so I couldn't bring any, Xort carried my load for me, as did Werebeagle.

On to Garhauer, all the gear I bought at the show was made by them, mainly because I KNOW it will work as I intend, and the prices were damn good.
I paid 329 bucks for every thing I need to bring my main halyard and both reefing lines aft to the cockpit, 3 blocks, a deck organizer and a 3 unit rope clutch. I also added in two cleats for my jib track, needed mid ship cleating as I raft up with other boats a lot.
I saw 3 unit rope clutches from spinlock and lewmar that cost alone more than I paid in total, and in my opinion were not only not better, but were worse.
Who wants a rope clutch you have to push in a tiny little button on before you can lift the handle? Just one more thing to go wrong / jam when you need it most.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Giu - thanks for the write up. This is great stuff. With your take on the bennes, I'm gonna have another look!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

THANK YOU XORT!!!!

Anyway Chuckles, I don't know which clutch is that..I have the Lewmars you know well, and they have one advantage over any one out there..Lewmar actually makes the ONLY one clutch that does not chew the lines...

Every one lese does..when we sail, we use, as you know, the clutches a lot, you saw us sail..open close trim release etc..

I prefer to pay a bit more for my clutches, abut use them over and over without chewing the sheets or lines..Got a quote for a new set of Genoa sheets..$1200.00 the pair!! And $600 for a halyard...so in the end I prefer Lewmar..

Now...Lwemar, harken etc//have good and bad, heavy and light..but I guarntee the top end Hi load stuff form Lewmar or Harken, outperforms any Garhauer, at half the weight...but yes..at a cost, and you are right there...

Should load, and weight not be an issue..Garhauer it would be..like I said, I didn't dislike the new black series...I know Mike and Mark since 2001, they made me a boom vang..cheap..but I could have made it at home if I wanted to..not that good looking, performed well, but weighede more than the boat...

So in the end, it all pretains to what we want them for...and what loads we're talking about..

Besides..Lewmar and harken, replace any stuff they engineered for you, if it breaks, they have great support...I believe Garhauer may have that too


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

chucklesR said:


> Alex, I just made sure you got some, Xort is who I stole it from
> 
> I didn't check luggage so I couldn't bring any, Xort carried my load for me, as did Werebeagle.


somebody has to pick up the slack!! 
Thief 

alex, glad you liked it, hate to see good booze go to waste!

Thanks chuck for the black seal/zero drink idea. quite good.

were there some boats at navy pier?


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Alex,

Some of us have to work on a budget. Having seen your boat I'm not sure if you are familiar with that word in English.

It means 'wife owns the check book'.

1200 dollars for a pair of jib sheets? Mine are 40 feet long, at 2 bucks a foot that's 80 bucks. Okay, I 'll have to replace them every five years, but even then it means that I come out even after 15 replacements, 75 years. 

As to chewing the lines, it's my main halyard and reefing lines. Not likely as I'll put a plastic sleeve on the line where they are clamped, and the reefing lines don't get adjusted all that often.


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## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Finally got to see these boats up close, after all had 2 whole days to do it...
> 
> Incredibly large inside, some pretty cool ideas, and stuff, but...but....but...had a "fake" feeling to it...altough I didn't see much plastic...*it looked like the feel you get from a plastic dashboard trying to imitate leather....it's hard to explain..*
> The deck is enormous, you can almost play the superbowl there, *BUT..again a weird feeling of Plastic dashboard. *
> ...


Well Alex,
You should have taken some time to visit a few car lots and check out what the new dashboards are really made of!
Plastic is prevalent in most every vehicle made. I'll never forget my first real exposure to it when I bought a brand new 1995 Chevrolet Blazer, it was loaded with plastic, could not believe how cheap it looked. I recently upgraded to a 2004 Chevrolet Trailblazer (bigger) and it also has no shortage of plastic.
Plastic is light and does not rust! That is why they use it, it is also cheaper and easier to work with thus reducing overall manufacturing costs.
Quality goes down as prices go up nowadays, that is just the way things are.
What you like costs money, more than most are willing to pay. The cheapness of build is a reflection of the times, we live in a plastic world and spend plastic money and have lots of plastic things.
Don't they have plastic in Europe yet? I don't much like it myself but I see no escape from it, it is everywhere, we even recycle it here. It just took a bit longer to creep into the boat building world more. I think we will be seeing more of it not less of it. Can't you just see the plastic wood veneer cabinets of the future in your imagination, Plastic cabin soles and plastic tables, of course the plastic will have a wood grain appearance to it but it will still be plastic.
Back in the 1960's we hade something called Mac-Tac, it was like a real sticky wall paper that you could cut and stick all over your beds and dressers to make them look cool, it even came in psychadelic patterns as was popular then, but you could get wood grain too! Maybe they should try that stuff in the new Hunters.:laugher uke


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## SailChick20 (Jul 15, 2008)

Alex,

I very much agree, right down to the Old Shoe.
That Hanse we liked wasn't an epoxy model, was it?

Oh...and I went back and bought those gloves....NOT the pink ones!
(even though pink guarantees no one will 'borrow' them)

-Kristen


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

K..

Good gloves..I tell you..i go thru mine in a few weeks..

Hope these ones ast longer, than the good fancy name brand ones, I'll let you know in a few weeks..I will undergo surgery so no sailing for a month for me.

That Hanse at the show was the regular glass one, with a "look I look like a race boat keel".. Funny..the rudder was really thick too...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

SailChick20 said:


> Oh...and I went back and bought those gloves....NOT the pink ones!
> (even though pink guarantees no one will 'borrow' them)


Cam would use them...:laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher

he's into that...so is Sway...and Chickles


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## SailChick20 (Jul 15, 2008)

Giulietta said:


> Cam would use them...:laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher
> 
> he's into that...so is Sway...and Chickles


Good call! Sway, no borrowing my pink gloves if we go sailing! Hands off!
:laugher


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

SailChick20 said:


> Hands off!


Hands off he may do, and resist..BUT the eyes off thing..I don't know if he can


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

plastic takes weight out of the boat

form follows function

therefore; plastic is great!!

pull up the photographs that alex took of the vendee boat that stopped in Portugal. interior was not what you'd call pleasing to the eye. very fast boat, very functional interior


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

How was the food??


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## SailChick20 (Jul 15, 2008)

The cinnamon almonds at the show topped all expectations.

The burgers at the Billy Goat, however...were paper thin.
Back me up, Craigtoo!


How was the brunch at Hancock, boys?



WouldaShoulda said:


> How was the food??


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## SailChick20 (Jul 15, 2008)

Giulietta said:


> Hands off he may do, and resist..BUT the eyes off thing..I don't know if he can


lol...that wasn't really me, I sent my stunt double.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

SailChick20 said:


> lol...that wasn't really me, I sent my stunt double.


Good idea, can't blame you. Smart. 

Hopefully your stunt double gave out stunt e-mail & phone numbers


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

SailChick20 said:


> I'm probably biased since I live here....
> 
> BUT, the cinnamon almonds at the show topped my expectations.
> 
> ...


Can you say "Triple, with cheese!!!!!!" Mmmmmmmm.


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## SailChick20 (Jul 15, 2008)

xort said:


> Hopefully your stunt double gave out stunt e-mail & phone numbers


The stunt has instructions to only give out incorrect phone numbers/email on my behalf.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

T..she had the-ultra-light-thin-bread-please-do't-go-in-my-buttocks-please-so-I-stay-in-shape-burger....

That's why...we had the blood thickening triples extra cheese.....

and I can't remember how many beers...


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## SailChick20 (Jul 15, 2008)

T34C said:


> Can you say "Triple, with cheese!!!!!!" Mmmmmmmm.


Right on, Jim! Cheese was key.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Hey...Jim...call Tim..he has your Vinho!!!! bastardo sujo....


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## Patient (Jan 7, 2009)

I too was not very impressed by quality of the boats at Strictlysail Chicago. I went on Sunday so I didn't expect a red carpet as most of the vendors were excited to go watch the superbowl or just get the hell out of there, so I didn't expect to see many smiles, nor did I get any.

The Beneteau section had staff on board to watch your every move and I was dismayed to learn that someone had stolen expensive equipment off of some of their models, like ripped them out of consoles. What a shame.

I saw some neat ideas and innovation, but none of the boats I saw in terms of production quality warranted the outrageous prices they were asking for, that includes the "Boat show sale" as well.

The Hunters were probably the best of the batch, but it was so crowded it was hard to really sit back and glimpse at the overall picture or navigate through every crevice of the presentation. 

Everything seemed very "Rushed" in terms of quality and design as well. It was amusing watching show goers trip on the same hidden step which had nothing but a single LED red light to warn of the 1' drop leading to the V-Berth. Someone yelled out "Why the hell is there a step there? It serves NO purpose other than to make me MAD!". I also saw someone pull open a galley hatch and have the handle end up flying on the floor. Definitely a "Doh!" moment. Another awkward moment was a shiny bald man who was part of the staff that just stood there in the Gallery with a bluetooth headset on and stared at us. He didn't say a word, didn't respond to our "Hello"s and didn't seem one bit interested in responding to my question about layouts. He just stood there, us and him in a small space, staring at us. I thought to myself, "I feel sorry for the person that shells out $200,000 for this piece of plastic and has to deal end up dealing with this guy."

There were pretty LED lights that obnoxiously lit every corner you could imagine, LCD TVs, fold out tables that you would never use, staterooms that resembled a modern hotel room, etc etc, but more bothersome was that "feet sinking" sensation on plastic decks like felt like leaning against a cheap Honda. 

No offense to anyone that purchased a boat there, or owns any of the boats I lightly mentioned, but one word would sum up the experience, Unimpressed.

I think the Girlfriend said it best with, "They just don't make things like they used to, do they?"


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

SailChick20 said:


> I'm probably biased since I live here....
> 
> BUT, the cinnamon almonds at the show topped my expectations.
> 
> ...


I swear to God the lettuce was thicker than the burger patty. Still doesn't explain why Kristen went and got one of her own..!!!


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## SailChick20 (Jul 15, 2008)

craigtoo said:


> I swear to God the lettuce was thicker than the burger patty. Still doesn't explain why Kristen went and got one of her own..!!!


Simple explanation:

very hungry girl + lots of rum = serious need for burger, even if wafer-ish

Also, I was hoping sustenance would help clarify the meaning of Sway's Blue Rabbit story.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

So C has a stunt double.......hmmmmmmm.......can I interest you in a son with a stunt double, we can put the stunt doubles together, and the non stunt doubles together........SLAP........"ouch" wife just hit me, but what the hay, can always ask!

At least It was not about me!...............


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

SailChick20 said:


> Simple explanation:
> 
> very hungry girl + lots of rum = serious need for burger, even if wafer-ish
> 
> Also, *I was hoping sustenance would help clarify the meaning of Sway's Blue Rabbit story.*


There is no amount of food or rum that will help that!!!!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

You guys laugh..but I had to be with him, Friday, Saturday, Sunday and..Monday!!!!!

Really.....I did...everyone would leave away from him..and I had to put up with him...

do you know that when he drives, the GPS says turn right, and he doesn't?? he knows a better way??? so we made 30 miles more, on average, everytime he drove...but man..I now know all the Chicago neighborhoods...


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

alex
that makes NO sense. don't you mean 'when the gps says turn LEFT' and he doesn't?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> You guys laugh..but I had to be with him, Friday, Saturday, Sunday and..Monday!!!!!
> 
> Really.....I did...everyone would leave away from him..and I had to put up with him...
> 
> do you know that when he drives, the GPS says turn right, and he doesn't?? he knows a better way??? so we made 30 miles more, on average, everytime he drove...but man..I now know all the Chicago neighborhoods...


Let's just review....

Who provided the fresh red grapefruit that a certain Portagee consumed like a scurvy ridden dory boatman? Heck, who cut and sectioned the grapefruit for the Portagee?

Who brought his waffle iron from home just because he knew the Portagee likes waffles? We won't even mention the fresh butter and pure maple syrup or the hand made pineapple bratwurst (don't laugh, they're the best!) necessary to keep our international boat reviewer up and running. Julie thought we were line cooks at the IHOP there for a while! I'll admit, to Tim, it must have looked like we'd come prepared to spend the rest of the winter.

GPS? Who do you think you're flying with, Camaraderie? That thing is just for suggestions, like those speed limit signs they put on the side of the road!

GPS didn't find the honky tonk with the biker girls and Belgian white beer did it? When the little Portagee _thought_ he just wanted to go to bed, did it? And who got the girl with the tooth to talk with you? Some gratitude!

OK, showing you the pink Gore-tex underwear _was_ a lapse in judgment. You get used to the color, at least I have. What's this about Chick's gloves? If I'm destined to be the Corporal Klinger of sailnet, the least you can do is keep me up to speed on the latest fashions. (g)


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Brunch atop the Hancock was fantastic! I hardly remember being thrown out. Thanks for comping the coat check gal, Charlie! I didn't want her to see me stuffing the muffins in my jacket.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> Let's just review....
> 
> Who provided the fresh red grapefruit that a certain Portagee consumed like a scurvy ridden dory boatman? Heck, who cut and sectioned the grapefruit for the Portagee?
> 
> ...


Now....

Who stayed with you when everyone else ran on sight from you??

Who drove with you (and smelled like a cheap whore because of your damn pipe tobacco), when no one wnated to go with you..so i went so you wouldn't drive alone??

Who showed you backstays

Who told you about the hot boats in the show??

Who showed you what's a stern and a bow on a sailboat??

Who bought you lunch, when you didn't want lunch??

Who had to look over and over at that girl's (you kow the one selling tiime shares or whatever)...legs and butt, with you??

Who kept you company late at night when Tim went to bed at 6 pm??

Who showed you what a spi sock looks like??

Who showed you how to buy stuff cheap??

Who was the first to know I bought sails??

Who?? who?? who??


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

That cloack woman at the hancock, looked at me and I swear I heard her eyes say:

"here, big mean man...come inside and make love to me right now..I need it soooo much....make dirty stuff to me..and call me Jane..my tarzan!!"....

Who else got that feeling????


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

You're not man enough to fill up that spinnaker sock and I deeply regret allowing you to show me your first attempt. And _that's_ why Tim went to bed at six o'clock!


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

Tarzan said:


> If I'm destined to be the Corporal Klinger of sailnet, the least you can do is keep me up to speed on the latest fashions. (g)


THAT was funny. :laugher


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

Late to a thread again . . . . . . . 

SailChick and Craig are right. The burgers at the goat were paper thin . . . but the pickles were really good. The house lager was a 10 on a 1 - 10 scale. I wish we could get stuff that down here. The Pizza at Bacino's was the best I ever had . . . period. The best I tell ya the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alex, My computer just came back alive. It died last night when I moved it downstairs. I'll get those pictures to you and post a few.

.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

SailChick,
keep the gloves, from the size of your hands I'd guess the best we could use them for is a thumb protector (I was going to say pinkie protector but it would have confused certain quasi -resident aliens)


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Now....
> 
> Who stayed with you when everyone else ran on sight from you??
> 
> ...


For the love of God!!!!! You two sound like an old married couple in a nursing home arguing over who gets the last Depends!!! Pinapple Brats???? Are you kidding??? Not only are they going to return any money you may have used to buy shares of the Packers, but they are very likely to revoke your WI visa and entry permitt!


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I *STILL* want to know which one of you is the wife???


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

I always knew Giu was a smart guy.



Giulietta said:


> *Beneteau*...These are really good boats, that sail well, probably the best of all productions. I like them a lot, and it's true, quality has come downhill since the last decade..but most mass production boats have too...
> Beneteau doesn't care, they have thousands of conquered customers. Right now, between the Catalina, Hunter, Jeanneau, Bavaria and Beneteau, I prefer the Beneteau..and would be able to accept the sacrifice of the weird interior, because the boats really sail good. And me?? I want a sailboat.
> 
> The Beneteau interiors are what we call American interiors, and you guys call them Euro interiors..
> ...


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

danielgoldberg said:


> I always knew Giu was a smart guy.


Would the converse of that be "Guy is a smart Giu"?


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

xort said:


> I *STILL* want to know which one of you is the wife???


Xort, makes me afraid to ask, but kind of drawn to anyway.

Why do YOU care?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

HEY!!!

*QUOTE CHEATER ALERT!!!*​Dan changed my post...I said:

*Beneteau*...These are really good boats, that sail well, probably the best of all productions. I like them a lot, and it's true, quality has come downhill since the last decade..but most mass production boats have too...
Beneteau doesn't care, they have thousands of conquered customers. Right now, between the Catalina, Hunter, Jeanneau, Bavaria and Beneteau, I prefer the Beneteau..and would be able to accept the sacrifice of the weird interior, because the boats really sail good. And me?? I want a sailboat.

The Beneteau interiors are what we call American interiors, and you guys call them Euro interiors..

Truth is no one wants them, including my friend, the dealer back home, that said: Oh God..that's not going to help, when he saw them in 2007..:laugher

Inside..it's weird, cheap, light, and what not, but it's a trend...it's modern, and at anchor, in coastal cruising is a good option...

The Beneteau uses good masts (Charleston Spar - Sparcraft), which is the mast the Hanse uses. Thedeck gear is good, and then in the first series, the boats are a dream to sail...and I am happy the obsolete Farr designs are gone..

Still sail one and you will see what a great boat thye are.

Beneteau are coastal sailing boats, with more focus on the sailing than the liveaboard features.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Giu - thanks for the write up. This is great stuff. With your take on the bennes, I'm gonna have another look!


Smack, their customer support will blow you away. Their parts are reasonably priced (which amazed me, considering a company could consider me a captive audience - at least for now) and they were willing to spend ample time on the phone answering questions and generally being helpful.

Next time you're in the New York city area, look me up and we'll take ours out.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Bene505 said:


> Smack, their customer support will blow you away. Their parts are reasonably priced (which amazed me, considering a company could consider me a captive audience - at least for now) and they were willing to spend ample time on the phone answering questions and generally being helpful.


That is true...I know that for a fact..and the dealers help too.

And even better, you can get parts for them anywhere in the World, from Chile to Canada, from Europe to Australia.

who else can say that?? no other boat builder..

No matter where you go, there is a Beneteau in the water.


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

xort said:


> Would the converse of that be "Guy is a smart Giu"?


Gius don't name their kids Guy, but if one did, he likely wouldn't be smart.


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

What are you talking about? Your post is exactly what it is. Just look below.



Giulietta said:


> HEY!!!
> 
> *QUOTE CHEATER ALERT!!!*​Dan changed my post...I said:
> 
> ...


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

*RE: Beneteau*

Although it's out of our price range... the 2006 Beneteau 423 that we took our nav class on was a great sailing boat... We were out in front of Cape Lookout in 6-8' / 25-30 and she handled great! Jayme did feed the fish though lol. uke :laugher :laugher


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Giulietta said:


> That cloack woman at the hancock, looked at me and I swear I heard her eyes say:
> 
> "here, big mean man...come inside and make love to me right now..I need it soooo much....make dirty stuff to me..and call me Jane..my tarzan!!"....
> 
> Who else got that feeling????


Alex, I don't think those thoughts were intended for you.

And I agree with the food reviews.

Sway, no problem on the coat check.

I think my favorite comment from the show came while waiting to board the Tartan. (At least I think it was the tartan, I can't remember which one it was.) Guy in front of me was on the phone telling whomever he was about to get on a boat. As we were standing at the stern waiting to board, this guy turns to me, and asks if this boat has a canoe sten. I calmly looked down, then looked back up to tell him no, it isn't a canow stern. I even managed to keep a straight face.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

werebeagle said:


> Guy in front of me was on the phone telling whomever he was about to get on a boat. As we were standing at the stern waiting to board, this guy turns to me, and asks if this boat has a canoe sten. I calmly looked down, then looked back up to tell him no, it isn't a canow stern.


I would have pointed a him in the direction of a certain guy there, with a beard, whose name I can't say, (but rhymes with Jackett), and have him ask the other guy..what boats are the ones that crack with backstay tension!!:laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> my choice would be a first off course, the 40.7, and for cruising, the 361..it's a really nice boat. get a good mast and boom on it, and what a boat.


We have a 40.7 at our club, and it's a winner, but I would not buy a Bene today for the reasons you cited, Alex.

My friend and I (steel boat also) said pretty much the same thing as you did, except I would say we hated the Hanse 400 the least. I was aboard a Dehler and current Beneteau and while I liked some ideas for the galley and the head (and will steal them for my boat), _as boats_, I didn't like them at all for more than "fun" sailing. I just don't think they are more than a bunch of marketing ideas for people who want to be surrounded by water when they drink.

My friend and I (the guy I mentioned on the phone, the cameraman/director) are both focused on offshore cruising/passagemaking (no surprise) and look for things that won't kill you offshore, like handholds, sharp furniture, positive locking on the sole, fridges that don't open on one tack and spill the rum, lifelines higher than 60 cm, backing plates under deck gear...deck gear that isn't cheap or weak, and so on. I saw a Dufour 40 a couple of years ago and looked inside lockers and down in the bilge and I actually thought "if this is rated Lloyd Ocean Class A like the salesman says, I no longer believe in Lloyd's Ratings".

While we have different goals than you, we agree that general quality is going down and that a lot of these boats crossing an ocean would range from uncomfortable to insufficient to even dangerous.

Maybe this isn't a problem if 99% of these boats are going to be in bays or in the Caribbean or even the Med. But I get a bad feeling if I think of them going against the Gulf Stream or off Newfoundland or crossing the Bay of Biscay. I don't think the "modern, convenient production boat" is made for those conditions any longer, even though it wouldn't take a lot to make a boat that was fast AND strong and had a comfortable motion at sea.


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

That canoe stern question was pretty funny Charlie. I also thought it was funny as we were climbing up to see the Island Packet and Alex yelled "enjoy the shoe"!

As for the relationship between Alex and Sway . . .










Not bad at times.

Jim gave Alex a pretty good waxing at the RC match.










. . . . . . . no Alex . . . . . . . the blue boat wasn't a shoe.

. . . and as for Alex's dissing of the Volvo engine in another thread . . . This one runs really well. Does anyone know where I can get a flux capacitor?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Oh Cammmmm! Pick up line two. You've got a hot one on the line for your snowmobile.  

Sorry, Bob, but Cam's wife looks much better in their Cuisinart, 'er, DeLorean.


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

I said the Hanse was my favorite boat at the show . . . I meant second.

It's a whole different category but I love the Shields. It's my number 1 of the show. Me . . . not sayng the best . . . it's just my favorite. She is beautiful to me . . . and I would own her in a second if I could. I like solings too but the Shields is Sexy!!!


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Didn't I tell you guys to order Double's?
I always get a double and when I am real hungry a triple.
Nobdoy goes to the Billy Goat and orders a single.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I didn't know beer could be ordered as a double, I thought that was only for mixed drinks


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

xort said:


> I didn't know beer could be ordered as a double, I thought that was only for mixed drinks


Yes it can, beer can be ordered as a double. It's called a Quart!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

although at the goat, that double would be closer to a pint, maybe even less. I Think that's the first time I had shots of beer.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

But Charlie, If you were to ask me, judging by what I saw, it still had the same effect.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

sailortjk1 said:


> But Charlie, If you were to ask me, judging by what I saw, it still had the same effect.


that's his natural state 

you didn't stop by the fairmont...you missed the consumption of copius quantities of rum!!! no pictures, thank god! everyone was sworn to secrecy.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Bob...if you were to spend money on a Shields...

Yiou would be better off and buy a Dragon, SEE HERE better looking, sails better, and with 2 more buddies, you can do some really really serious sanctioned serious champinships...real World cup stuff, not beer can races...

Besides, the Dragon is a race boat with 1000's of trim features...a technical boat, designed in 1930, by John Anker. Was Olympic boat till 1972.

Sails around the Shields, which nothing more than a heavy (almost double displacement), 1963 copy of the Dragon....sorry....

See here


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

You're right Alex! The Dragon is a beautiful boat. IDA • Photo Gallery I'd own that in a second too. There are none in the U.S. on yacht World. It's not the race that draws me to them, it's the art. Our house walls a covered with pictures of the old J class boats. I hate even calling them boats . . . they are works of art. My second sailboat was an S&S design 22 foot ocean racer built in Holland in 1961. I loved that boat dearly but the wife hated it. What was inportant to her was standing room and a head . . . thus the current old shoe. I miss that Kertrel.

They have Soling classes down here also. I like them too. They're just not as sexy from the wateline down. They still look good and sail great.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Giulietta said:


> That is true...I know that for a fact..and the dealers help too.
> 
> And even better, you can get parts for them anywhere in the World, from Chile to Canada, from Europe to Australia.
> 
> ...


Bene and Giu, (wasn't that a song by Elton John?)

Anyway, I won't be buying a new one due to somewhat lackluster performance in my stock portfolio recently (I'm currently sitting on a window ledge). Sounds like this ain't necessary a bad thing since the build quality is not what it used to be.

That said, what is the "sweet spot" for good quality in the Benes (early/mid '90s, early '00s, etc.)?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

For boats up to 45 feet, I stop in 2002


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

Patient said:


> I think the Girlfriend said it best with, "They just don't make things like they used to, do they?"


They can, it just costs...

Sorry the food was unimpressive. Seems like it should have been a Chicago highlight. It is in Annapolis!!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Bene and Giu, (wasn't that a song by Elton John?)
> 
> Anyway, I won't be buying a new one due to somewhat lackluster performance in my stock portfolio recently (I'm currently sitting on a window ledge). Sounds like this ain't necessary a bad thing since the build quality is not what it used to be.
> 
> That said, what is the "sweet spot" for good quality in the Benes (early/mid '90s, early '00s, etc.)?


Around 2000 for 40.7s without the ******* teak, I would think. Good general comments are here:

Used Boat Review

The Firsts can be raced but are not extreme. Several race at my club and I've seen them in action with crews of seven or eight and they can be made to do pretty impressive moves and accelerations for a boat that's nominally a cruiser.

The First 36.7 is also a pretty hot boat. Richard Reid in _Zingara _out of my club was the North American Champion in this one-design in '07 and may still be, for all I know, but watching him sail this is something else. I think Beneteau currently still make good boats, but they used to make great boats in almost all of their models. I don't think this is still the case. I just haven't liked what I've seen "under the hood".


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Cool - thanks guys.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

The best boat of the show, Ok maybe the most fun boat.

Nickels Boat Works, Inc. » Our Boats


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Bene and Giu, (wasn't that a song by Elton John?)
> 
> Anyway, I won't be buying a new one due to somewhat lackluster performance in my stock portfolio recently (I'm currently sitting on a window ledge). Sounds like this ain't necessary a bad thing since the build quality is not what it used to be.
> 
> That said, what is the "sweet spot" for good quality in the Benes (early/mid '90s, early '00s, etc.)?


I'm not sure what size boat you're looking at, or if you are speaking of Beneteaus cruising boats, or their performance oriented boats, but one of the major issues that tipped the scales from Bene to Catalina (34'-36') for me was the fact that nearly every early '90's crusing Beneteau I came across was equipped with roller furling main.

That leads me to disagree with a blanket statement that Beneteau's are better sailing boats that Catalina's or Hunters, at least comparing similar models from the early-late 90's. Looking at PHRF numbers for the Chesapeake, I find C36MkII's with ratings around 156 and a Beneteau 361with in mast furling, rated at 165 (same as my C36MkI w/ tm, wk, fp, rfa). Put in mast furling on the Catalina MKII and they are very comparable in sailing performance. They are either both "old shoes" or not, depending on your point of view.

Now, Beneteau does make some higher performance boats, but your spouse is not likely to see it as comparing apples to apples when they take a look below in one of those, and then steps into a Catalina or, God Forbid, a Hunter. 30 seconds a mile ain't gonna mean squat, when they compare below deck amenities. More power to you if you can make the sale. I didn't even come close, my choice was Beneteau Oceanus or Catalina. Edited to add the fact that some of those better sailing Beneteaus from the late 80's early 90's can only be described as "FUGLY".

I'm talking used boats from around the 90's. If I was new boat shopping I don't know what I like. The latest Catalina's in the mid 30's range have too much freeboard to my eye. My slipmates Catalina 350 looks to be nearly 2 feet taller than my C36MkI and I can't get my eye to love it. I haven't really looked at the latest Bene's, since I spent my time at Annapolis looking at boats only CEO's of failing banks could afford. I went on the big Catalina 47 and really liked it, but since I'd have to win the lottery to buy it, I might as well wish for a Hyla's, Halberg-Rassy, Oyster, Swan, Hinkley, etc.

Alex's intial comments about the Catalina's he went aboard are exactly what I like about my boat, but realize that everyone weighs the compromises in production boats differently and I respect his opinion.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

midlifesailor said:


> ...My slipmates Catalina 350 looks to be nearly 2 feet taller than my C36MkI and I can get my eye to love it.


Do you mean you CAN'T?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

midlifesailor said:


> Alex's intial comments about the Catalina's he went aboard are exactly what I like about my boat, but realize that everyone weighs the compromises in production boats differently and I respect his opinion.


And this..gentlemen, is how two people, with disagreeing points, politely show their point of view, without room for aggaravation, offense and loss of class.

Mls, you have gained my respect...

Thank you for your inteligent classy reply.

Alex


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> And this..gentlemen, is how two people, with disagreeing points, politely show their point of view, without room for aggaravation, offense and loss of class.
> 
> Mls, you have gained my respect...
> 
> ...


You are a no relax sailing, catalina hating, no bbqing, two fist sandwich eating, portugese Bene lover.

There you go, Giu. I am trying to learn from Midlife. How am I doing?

Brian


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> How am I doing?


As good as your sailing......pretty bad:laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I thought you were going home today?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I am in Salt Lake..fly out in 2 hours...

Burning the last cartridges, before I leave you guys....

With the surgery, this may be the last you hear from me...hope not


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Have you told everybody which surgery you are having, Alice?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailortjk1 said:


> Have you told everybody which surgery you are having?


Nope...but its not what I told you..it's not hemrroids!!!  

more serious.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Giulietta said:


> Nope...but its not what I told you..it's not hemrroids!!!
> 
> more serious.


So we can start calling you Alice now.


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

Are you REALLY going through w/ the sex change surgery??? DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!! :laugher


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

let's keep that private, shall we??

first I am married, second, don't you think I splash already enough of my life here??

I appreciate some privacy

Thanks


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Dolly is going to take this very hard.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Midlife,

Thanks for the advice. Good stuff, dude. I've seen a couple of boats that I like - one of them being an Oceanis 39.9 (mid '90s), and the other being an Irwin 43 CC (late '80s). I like the layout and comfort of the Irwin, but I definitely want a relatively tough boat that's fun to sail too. As for the Catalina, my C27 has so much freakin' freeboard I'm STILL having to pee on the rail to get it wet. And that's just wrong. So, I see what you mean. 

The wife already said she'd follow me anywhere, so I'm gonna hold her to it and get whatever the hell I wanna get. heh-heh.

I was just glad to hear that the Benes don't suck.

CD - that Giu comment was completely out of line. Midlife - school the guy.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Joel73 said:


> Are you REALLY going through w/ the sex change surgery??? DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!! :laugher


I don't understand? With a screen name like Giulietta, you would think Giu needs a "Little" add-on. I mena, come on... it's not like he calls himself something masculine like Cruisingdad or Joel. This is Giulietta, ok? Let the person have his surgery!!!

- CD


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

bubb2 said:


> Dolly is going to take this very hard.


Dolly has been taking it very hard for a while now. :laugher She'll perhaps get some rest. Wyoming breaths a sigh of relief.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I'll explain...I am removing 5 lbs of brain, so I can be...how can i say it...more to the earth....as CD....so I need to save sailing weight..so because I have so much, I am removing some brain matter

They figured I was too intelligent, and so it's a steped approach

3lbs less I am like TJ
4lbs less I am like Xort
5lbs less I am like CD
10lbs Less, like Cam

with only 1/2 pound brain..I'll be extremist conservative Republican Nazi, like Sway!!!

ehehehe


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

The economy is bad, Giu. Save a buck. TJK may even have a coupon for you if you want.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> I'll explain...I am removing 5 lbs of brain, so I can be...how can i say it...more to the earth....as CD....so I need to save sailing weight..so because I have so much, I am removing some brain matter
> 
> They figured I was too intelligent, and so it's a steped approach
> 
> ...


are you donating your organs to science? I know a guy named Frankunschtein who could use some. he's in your neck of the woods.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailortjk1 said:


> But Charlie, If you were to ask me, judging by what I saw, it still had the same effect.


Hey, I just had a good buzz going at the Goat. I didn't get drunk till we hit the Goslings at the Fairmont.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Bene505 said:


> Do you mean you CAN'T?


Yep, that's what I intended, I fixed it.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Midlife,
> 
> Thanks for the advice. Good stuff, dude. I've seen a couple of boats that I like - one of them being an Oceanis 39.9 (mid '90s), and the other being an Irwin 43 CC (late '80s). I like the layout and comfort of the Irwin, but I definitely want a relatively tough boat that's fun to sail too. As for the Catalina, my C27 has so much freakin' freeboard I'm STILL having to pee on the rail to get it wet. And that's just wrong. So, I see what you mean.
> 
> ...


I definitely don't think Bene's suck, but they do have a bewildering assortment of models of nearly the same size that made it hard for me to focus on a particular model. I, being a natural born *******, also prefer the "hammer and anvil" feeling of the Catalina, that Gui alluded to, over the "Bond, James Bond" feel of the Beneteau cruising line.

When I was shopping, I'd review the PHRF numbers on the Bene's and then go look on Yachtworld to see if I could find one in my price range. Some of the fastest mid-size benes just smack you in the face the first time you see them. I swear its like one of the design parameters was to use at least one of every shape and size of portlight and hatch ever built. For newer boats, if it was in the budget and the spousal unit would go for it, a Bene 36.7 would be a heck of a lot of fun I think. It seems Beneteau has gotten over its spasm over the top styling, for styling sake.

If your wife is down for giving you complete descretion in what you buy and you want a pretty boat, take a look at a Sabre 36. Faster than most of the Benes and better built to boot.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

But dude, I'm all about the shaken martini. If it ain't got panache, it ain't got the daddy, if you know what I'm sayin'. Anyway, I need another 3-6 feet to feel like I'm in the zone.

Sincerely,

Puffdaddy, Smack Puffdaddy
(currently sailing a crappy, but fast C27)


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Smack,

Find a nice used 36.7, sail it up here to the NW, I'll find me one too, we can 1D out of edmonds, get dejodenda and his C30 and smack his hiney! Pull CC down here from up north, jody from south, smack him and his berberis while were at it! Try and suck tenuki into coming out from here too, he's about a half mile down the road, been kinda quite around here too.....hmmmmm......he needs some smakin too come to think of it!

maybe pull a few of the other yahoo's from up north down here too. Or maybe roundevous for the round the county in Nov!

what do ya think........ouch.......dang it, need to quit thinking, pulls my brain muscle!.........


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Now you're tallkin' Bluto! The BFS Battle Royal!

Hell yeah!!! Who's in???


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Besides that, there's 7 or 8 other First 36.7's around here in different places, they all got together at the NOOD's last may, not sure, but hopefully they are doing it again this may at the NOOD's! They rate about 80 around here. Could be fun!


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

blt2ski said:


> Smack,
> 
> Find a nice used 36.7, sail it up here to the NW, I'll find me one too, we can 1D out of edmonds, get dejodenda and his C30 and smack his hiney! Pull CC down here from up north, jody from south, smack him and his berberis while were at it! Try and suck tenuki into coming out from here too, he's about a half mile down the road, been kinda quite around here too.....hmmmmm......he needs some smakin too come to think of it!
> 
> ...


Let me know when you are ready - recent upgrades and we now rate a -100.... oh wait .. uhmm thats when the sticks are attached to asphalt...

Sigh...

Race any day - Round the county missed it this past year - will try to do this one....

Smack - you'll never get a good stirred Martini on a good race boat - it will always be shaking!


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