# Bruce Roberts Designs



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

Found a 60' design I think I like from Bruce Roberts.  

I'd like to hear what the avid members our forum have on this designer and his boats. Opinions or experiences? 

Want to brag about your boat?


----------



## Sasha_V (Feb 28, 2004)

Floating housebricks of dubious integrity.

There are cheaper ways of getting a better boat.


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Sasha*

Cool, 
Can you elaborate? I want to know why.
My dream boat is a steel hull schooner or ketch with lots of room. Roberts has the designs that seem to fit. What don't you like about those boats (Spay?)

How about Dudly Dix? or Ted Brewer?
Am I missing any other good designers of steel boats?


----------



## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Bruce Roberts seems to have a good marketing department, insofar as sending out plans. I was once on their mailing list, too. The pleasant-sounding copy describes what the boat is intended for, but fails to mention how long the design has been around or how well it actually performs. Some old designs are classics, but not all of them. Pictures of vessels under way are included, with some testimonials from Papua New Guinea or some such place. The likely builder-owner, after spending untold years putting his bathtub together, isn't likely to be too critical of his "baby", even if it took him months to make a trip others do in weeks. The discounted prices that may make used Roberts designs attractive at first glance are an indication that the market is wary of homebuilt boats of unknown quality that, though they may float, don't necessarily move forward easily or handle well. There are enough used boats of known construction quality and known sailing characteristics that taking a risk with a Roberts design (which may have been modified from the plans by the builder, to boot) probabaly isn't worth it.


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Avoid Roberts?*

Hmm OK,
Outside ofthis thread I am not hearing any accolades about Roberts boats.

How about Dudley Dix? or Ted Brewer?
Am I missing any other good designers of steel boats?

These guys seem to be in the same business. I don't know about their reputations or any thrid party details about their boats either.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

At some level, I agree with the comments above. Bruce Roberts has some reasonably nice design, but he also has quite a few worse than mediocre designs in his catalog. His Spray series, while quite popular, produces designs which would not be very appealing to sailors who care how well a boat sails.

I like most of Dudley Dix's work. He seems to have a good sense of proportion and seems to do the kind of careful engineering and detailing that produces good boats. In the 60 foot range I really like his Dix 64 which (except for its extreme shoal draft for a boat this size) is a very moderate and seemingly well thought through design. His 65 foot Liberte' design sails out of Annapolis, and so I see her underway quite often. I am less impressed with that design.

Ted Brewer is an extremely respected designer of traditional cruising boats. My father owns one his 42 foot FRP production boats and it has been an excellent boat. I am not familiar with his bigger designs.

Tom Colvin is a guy who thinks out of the box. He has designed a wide range of traditionally based metal boats. While all kinds of grand claims have been made for these boats, I think that in reality, these are good solid boats that seem well suited to the non-performance oriented distance cruiser.

I also like the work of Yves Tanton who is a very ingenious designer and who seems to produce very clever designs. The only set of his drawings that I have seen was somewhat incomplete but I don't know whether that reflects that specific owner's objectives or Mr. Tanton's norm.

Van der Stadt is extremely respected for their very high quality steel boat designs. I am more familiar with their midsized modern designs and their 35 to 42 foot older designs, but I have known owners of their larger designs who have raved about their boats.

I worked for the late Charlie Wittholz who had a great eye and was a very conscientious designer. Last I heard, his family was still selling his designs. I worked on a number of his steel designs and I think that watching him work, he was someone who genuinely understood what made a boat work and tried very hard to produce good designs.

If you were going to build a boat this large, I seriously want to suggest that you consider a custom design, a design that works for your specific needs and goals. Only you know what you want out of a boat, and frankly if you are going through the trouble to custom build a boat, then the small incremental cost of doing a custom design only makes sense. If I were going to do a custom design, I would strongly suggest that you contact Antonio (Tony) Dias (*Antonio* *Dias* *Design* 171 Cedar Island Road,Narragansett, RI, 02882). I have known Tony for may years and I really love his work. His designs are beautiful to look at, but more importantly extremely well thought through and carefully crafted. 

I do want to touch on the premise of this thread. "My dream boat is a steel hull schooner or ketch with lots of room. Roberts has the designs that seem to fit." and at the heart of it, it sounds like you want a steel 60 footer with an antiquated rig. I think that it would be easier to answer your question about designers of steel boats, if we understood what you are trying to accomplish with this boat. Designers, like the people who buy their designs, have strong design personalities that inform the thousands of design decisions that must be made in the course of producing a design.

In other words, 
Do you plan to build this boat yourself, or have a yard build it, or buy a used boat? 
What do you plan to do with this boat? (i.e. live-aboard, distance cruise, charter) 
Where do you plan to sail this boat?
How experienced are you as a sailor or boat builder? 
This is an enormous boat that will take a large crew to handle safely. What is your goal for a boat this big?
Why are you focusing on Steel?

And so on....
Jeff


----------



## Sasha_V (Feb 28, 2004)

I would add Steve Dashew's designs to that list for a modern boat in that size range and constructed of aluminium or steel.










Big, fast, comfortable ketches.

I think that building a 60 foot boat fomr the ground up that is not custom made exactly to your specs is like throwing away a million dollars to avoid spending 20,000.
If you are talking about finding existing hulls, then you will find the Roberts stuff to be all over the place in terms of construction quality and "personalised" specs...many of which do not work because they were thought up by the amatuer guy welding the thing together in his backyard rather then someone that has a clue.

Sasha


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Shack...I don't particularly like the Roberts designs either...Check out Van de Stadt designs...they design boats even Jeff H and I can agree to like!


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd also mention that Van de Stadt also designs some very good aluminum boats too. Going cheap on a boat of that size seems to be a waste of money IMHO. 

It might help to say what kind of sailing you intend on doing, as well as what your budget is for the boat. The upkeep on a 60' steel boat is going to be fairly considerable, especially if you intend on keeping it in a marina for any period of time.


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Over the Horizon . ..*

Wow - I feeel like I'm in a therapist's office.  _It all started when I was a child . . . _

*The Boat:* I envision a 5 year plan to get this hull into the water. Looking at a live-aboard concept with a trade area to serve as a workshop or cargo hold. Must be cable of open water passage making with a small crew or enough technology to support the basic team of two. Although presently I only see western Atlantic and Caribbean as a sailing area. I also can see it lashed to a pier or anchorage for no more than 3-6 months at the far end, but sailing weekly on the short end. This has a lot speculation to it, and I hate speculation. I wouldn't mind building her myself, both my wife and I are technically savy with just enough artisan to have some flair. I wouldn't mind watching someone do it for me, either. It all depends . . .

*Me: *Relative to most on this net - I would put myself in the novice category as far as sailing goes. So, I'm obviously starting with the familiar CWR method (crawl-walk-run) into a live aboard situation. We have no kids - I have a pension plan that includes Health care for life - and I can retire at 42 if I should choose to do so. I have a lot more aeronautical that nautical experience. For years, I've commanded a 40 year old 150,000 lbs aircraft with a crew of 5 to 7 men around the world from Thailand to Tinian, and Bahrain to Bermuda. I'm finding the similarities between the two modes of transportation helpful in regards to the larger contexts of navigation, weather, physics, technical issues and crew management. But the simliarities all stop there. I'm cautious and cynical enough to understand that the devil is in the details, and the details are what kills the fun and can often kill people. I'm sort of _. . . the wild rover, but no, never, no more . . ._

I like to have a plan. Plans are necessary to begin any journey, but I find that I'm rarely roped to them. Plans are for planning, execution is what happens when reality sets in. _"Never fall in love with a plan. She'll only break your heart."_

Hell, when I was a kid . . . I wanted to be truck driver or a soldier. Who'd a thunk I'd be doing both but in an airplane instead. 

So, there's my profile - NOW where's my boat??


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If you are intending to build a 60+ foot boat from the keel up, you must be entertaining a significant budget. (Building your own boat is not really a cost-saving way to do things, especially at that size)
It would seem to me that if you're that committed to your plan (which is certainly intriuging) that the cost involved in getting a custom design that suits your needs as precisely as you can now anticipate would be relatively small portion of the total project and should pay dividends down the road.
I'd say you should be shopping designers.


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Links . .*

By the way - thanks for the links guys - I am checking them out. 
Some good points are being made and I am taking copious notes.

I'm also very maintenance sensitive and would like to hear about some of the newest tech on steel vs aluminium as far as maintenance and durability (corrosion). Seems like eveytime I turn around someone has suitbale opinoin that flips the last one. (New alloys or paint, cost vs durability, workability vs cost, etc)

Fascinating . . .


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Faster*



Faster said:


> I'd say you should be shopping designers.


I'd say you're right.
So what do you think of Brewer, Stadt, Dudley Dix . . . and all them?

I'm fishing for opinons (good, bad and ugly).


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

A couple of anecdotal tales:

An acquaintance has (and had built) a custom Brewer 42, in aluminum as an offshore boat and they are very happy with it. It is a conservative looking boat, with a very liveable interior plan. It has been down the west coast a couple of times to Mexico, but in the end spends most of her time coastal cruising (and casual racing!). Brewer has a proven track record.

Years back I met a fellow from Wash state who had built a semi-custom hardchine version of the Norseman 440, also in aluminum. This Perry production design was modified by Perry for the builder, and the result was impressive. It helped that the builder was something of a perfectionist.

Dix has a good reputation for easy-to-build designs that perform well. In this world of instant communication his being in S.A. should be no obstacle.

v.d.Stadt has eons of experience in this medium.

All the above would have a long list of designs under their belt - perhaps one of their designs could be tweaked to suit your needs and/or reflect more modern thinking, rather than starting from scratch.

Best wishes for your project however you take it!


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Modern vs Traditional*

Wondering how much "curb appeal" or "pier appeal" I can work into a boat, but still take advantages of modern technology.

Love the look of a old traditional schooner, who doesn't? But an efficiently designed boat would tend to lean toward a space age - modern look that can be dated rather quickly.

There must be examples of classy boats that also sport hydraulic winches, wind gens, solar panels, antennae, etc.

 Anybody have any links to these examples? (The "Compass Rose" is one example.)


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Not cruisy, but along those lines:

http://www.spirityachts.com/sy-spirit-46.htm

However this is where a custom design can be the ticket. Your designer can perhaps give you the "look" you're after, but hide a modern efficient underbody. The biggest downside is to get the performance you'll lose displacement which means your "shippy" looking boat will have less storage and weight-carrying ability than you might expect. However at 60 feet you can probably get enough of both.


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Faster*

r u a designer? 

You tryin' to sell me something . . . .

Just kidding,

The Spirit web site has a great blend of modern & traditional. It has some great examples in there. The basic design does look like a large day sailer for racing. Open exposed cockpit and all. Awesome lines, though.


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Review*

OK,
I got a hcance to sit down and review the advice coming in on designers. Here's a summary.

Bruce Roberts - cheap, get what you pay for risky?
Ted Brewer - a player
Dudley Dix - people like his stuff
Tom Colvin - curiosoity?
Yves Tanton - solid and experienced, fast yachts
Van der Stadt - solid and experienced, ditto
Charlie Wittloz (RIP) - strongly recommended
Tony Dias - strongly recommended
Steve Dashew - looks nice, cutting edge stuff

Anyone see a key player missing, here?


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Shack said:


> r u a designer?
> 
> Well, yes! included in my portfolio is a 7.5 foot sailing pram designed and built 20 years ago, and...... um.. actually that's it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Sometimes I think this place should be change its name from Sailnet to 'Field of dreams', with the tag line 'build it and they shall sail'. I must say that you are thinking really huge considering how little sailing experience you say you have. Designing and having a custom boat requires a vast amount of informed decisions. A great yacht designer can help steer you through the process but ultimately there are a whole lot of subjective decisions that have to be made along the way and with all due respect when you talk about a boat this large, it is really hard to develop the kind of knowledge base that will allow a novice to make the right call, and the wrong call can prove very expensive if not lethal. As we used to joke on a similar subject, building boats based on good marine design decisions is expensive, but building based on bad decisions is wildly expensive.

Which is not to say, 'Don't do it'. Which comes back to the question at hand.

I would agree with the suggestion that you add Bob Perry to your list. In many ways, Bob Perry is a good as they come when it comes to designing cruising boats. He has a great eye, good common sense, good engineering skills, understands what it takes to produce good performance and good sea manners, and lots of experience. He's also a good communicator and a very decent person. I have heard second hand that he is also very reasonably priced for someone of his expertise and experience.

Although not the first name that might come to mind for a cruising boat, Bruce Farr designed a series of really wonderful cruising boats in the late 1970's and early 1980's that would be really super cruisers even today. I own one of the 38's from that series, and have sailed on one of the 54 or so footers. Great short-handed sailing boats. I think if I were looking for my ideal distance cruiser over 50 feet, an updated version of Farr Design Number 86 http://www.farrdesign.com/086.htm would be near the top of my list. Modifying an existing design by a top notch designer may actually be a very reasonably priced way to go. Tech support at Farr has been excellent.

Another designer who I really like is Jay Benford. Jay is very much out of the Ted Brewer mold, but I think that Jay has stayed a little more current in his thinking than the venerable Mr. Brewer. I know Jay personally and have always thought he would be a great guy to work with.

I also like Robb Ladd from Annapolis, Maryland. I have known Robb for over 25 years and he's very good at what he does. He designed Patience Wales' (from Sail Magazine) boat a few years back and I was very impressed with that design.

Karl, (dawg-gone-it I am drawing a blank on his last name) at Chesapeake Marine Design has a really nice eye and I think would produce a very nice traditional design. Also he's just a good guy just to talk to.

Then there is Chuck Paine (C.W.Paine) who has a sterling reputation. His design for Reindeer, an adaptation of which eventually became the Morris 45, was one of the most impressive modern cruisers that I have seen in recent years. Several years ago, I ran into Reindeer at Bert Jabins yacht yard in Annapolis and I found myself standing there just gawking in awe at her design.

Other advice, if you plan to sail the boat shorthanded, I would seriously give up the idea of a traditional schooner rig. Schooner rigs are neat to sail if you have no where to go or are a museum ship, but really are not very practical for distance cruising.

In that size range, and with a concern for safety and durability. I would give serious thought to some of the new Marine Aluminum Alloys. Although aluminum sounds expensive by the pound, priced by equal strength and equal size, there is a lot less weight to be purchased.

I would also consider sheathed cold-molded wood construction, which again is probably one of the least maintenance and one of the highest strength per pound techniques that you can use in that size range.

End of lunch so back to work,

Jeff


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Progress measured by inches . . .*

Jeff-

Awsome list of names. Thanks, I'll check them out. I'm in MD for the Big Butt Show, and plan to snoop around at the obvious and look at details as well. If I'm near any of the folks in your reply, I'll make an attempt to stop by and continue my discussion.

Hull Materails - 
I'm not yet convinced that the design in my head needs to save weight. I just may want a heavier hull for stability/ ballast considerations or peace of mind when that submerged piling comes into view too late. I've heard and read alot of arguments on all the materials. What I need to do is continue listening, and see which material breaks out as meeting the application.

What I do understand is that many designs are roped into using either wood or steel, etc . . . Few even stated that aluminum and steel are both options. I think I am going to lean towards the boat design first. Then use the recommended material for that identified design.

You nailed my biggest problem right on the head. With a deram so far away, its difficult to project one's vision far enough to focus on the details. However, without details - progress is difficult. So far, I have a good track record in the dreams department.

I have no reason to stop now - and see now no obstacle that I can't overcome.

I damn well know that I won't just trip into a good dream by accident.

Thanks again!!


----------



## Sasha_V (Feb 28, 2004)

Ummm...there are a couple of problems with your reasoning in the last post.

First and foremost is that "weight" of materials or hull on its own does nothing for safety or stability except slow you down and expose you to more chance of being caught out by bad weather fronts.

Weight does not equate to safety or performance unless it is in the right place. Having a heavy steel hull does nothing for stability...and in fact requires MORE ballast in the right places to compensate for the heavier hull. So you end up with a MUCH heavier boat because all of your specs go up. More ballast to hold it upright, bigger and heavier rig to move the extra weight around, bigger and heavier gear to control the rig....You end up chasing your own tail to no greater purpose at all. And by the way...that is the quintessential defintion of most Bruce Robert's designs. making up for the builder's expected lack of skills (A good assumption given their business model) and access to higher tech materials by substituting "bulk" and low tech. You end up with boats that mostly have the sailing characteristics of arthritic wombats...and those are the success stories. My estimate is that way more then 60% of Roberts design hulls are dotting backyards and factory land as lawn art and sculptures to grand ideas left 1/4 finished.

Next point you may wish to reconsider is that the design and the materials are, in the case of any worth working with, linked at a very real level. Boats that are designed and tank tested and refined to be made of aluminium are going to sail and sit at very different lines if constructed of steel. The construction specs are also going to be somewhat different.

So do not start by shopping the design. Start by reading broadly (Beyond US based designs and boat building concepts). The europeans are huge on aluminium boats, as are New Zealanders and quite a few of the top-end Australian and South Africans.

Steel has it's benefits...But compared to a modern marine grade aluminium, it's major saving grace is cost and ease of repair in foreign ports. But on a 65footer...pack a mini-welder the size of a woman's handbag, and a TIG kit. You will then be more self sufficient then a GRP boat in most circumstances...And with aluminium, you can carry around a of 6x4 sheet of patch material and not have the weight issues seem silly the way you would with steel.

Got to go, crying baby. End of the world.

I love being a dad.


Sasha


----------



## JimHawkins (Aug 25, 2006)

*cheap sailboat available?*



Sasha_V said:


> ... My estimate is that way more then 60% of Roberts design hulls are dotting backyards and factory land as lawn art and sculptures to grand ideas left 1/4 finished.


Here is a posting from Craig's List/Seattle.

Forty foot Bruce Roberts "Spray" sailboat - $1995
See picture of the frames tack welded and ready for the steel plating, on
this all steel sailboat. This is one of the most fsmous sailboat designs of all 
time.I am getting to old for this project, and will unstack the frames and 
deliver them for $1995. Save Yourself about a thousand hours bulding a 
great seaworthy boat.

I saw a 60 footer a month or two ago with the hull finished and some deck framing done, and they were willing to pay $800 for someone to take it away.
Any takers?


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I recently took a trip to SE Alaska and spent some time there wandering the docks. This is serious fishing territory and fishermen are serious about reliability and longevity. I was very surprised to see a large number of Aluminum hulls. I think there is a lesson here.


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Aluminum . . . or . . . Alyuminium*

SASHA - 
I heard much about the corrosive resistance marine grade aluminum (5000 series I think). Suppose to be great stuff, and easier to work with than steel (weight and tooling.)

What I find reassuring is that some steel designs that I've fancied are also compatible with aluminum.

I'm an avid reader and I'll look into the foreign hull designs. Do you have any recommended resources (favorite books) on metal hull designs?

Just got back from Annapolis. Left with a smile on my face just before high tide on Saturday. Spoke at length with a few owners and companies. The owner of a nice Caliber gave me a personalized tour of some of his key engineering features and some custom work he and his wife pursued. It was a highlight of our day there. Also saw many fine features on other large boats to include the multi-hulls. My wife and I snapped pictures and kept enough notes to keep us busy for a while. Glad we went - simply a gold mine of info for someone like me. Took alot of advice away from a lot of wise people. I'm one fat leech right now. I met a few snobs, too.  But not too many.

Time to eat! Back later.


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*$1998*

*JimHawkins - *
Nice skeleton, and you drop me an email in a couple years from now if you still have this skeleton rusting at this yard.

Are you supporting the concept that BruceRoberts boats designs are seized upon by those without means nor desire to truly follow through?

*Sasha- *
I'm still willing to ask the question such as, "what if a Roberts' Spray was built by a professional yard?" Would its only negative point then be the old (dated) hull design? Or am I missing some *other *negative aspect of the Spray line? What issues are there with an aluminum Spray?

Thanks- . . . I have time on my side.


----------



## Sasha_V (Feb 28, 2004)

Okay, several points. First having a porfessional yard build a BR Spray would be a waste of that yards skills and your money. You would end up with a somwwhat overbuilt and less then optimal boat that you paid nearly as much (or maybe a little more) for as you would have if you had persued a better design, that actually knew a skilled yard would build it right form the design stage.

The spray's resale value would still be that of a BR spray....regardless of the fact that it was the priciest one in christendom because you had master craftsmen do every welded inch. So as an investment it seems a poor step.

Now lets take a look at the original Spray. She was an obsolete derelict at the time that slocum picked her up for song. A sailing design that was so bad that it had gone form hauling "respectable" cargo to being a fish tramp and then a veritable coal barge. Now note that it was not worn out...as demonstrated by the fact that he spent very little money and then took the boat around the world....It just wasn't an efficient design. even in the original, even a century ago. Basically slocum was gutsy, brave and short on funds...so he managed the trip, but that does not make it an ideal boat or something that you should spend hundreds of thousands of dollars emulating. I read that in todays money, the original spray cost about 400pounds...and he got a "bit" of a bargain. 
So do you want to emulate a boat that was already obsolete and disgarded in 1898, and then spend a fortune sort of reproducing it in modern materials which could give you something much better?

Get a designer. Tell him you want a certain flavour above waterline and a lot of comfort, then tell him that he can do whatever he needs to below the waterline to give you the best of all possible worlds. As long as a good designer has a free hand in at least one facet of the design, then he can usually make it all come togetehr. It is only when a client has overlapping restrictions on ALL fronts that he is left shaking his head.

As to an aluminium spray...well the ribs will likely be in the wrong places, alumium wants to shape differently and there are practical elements such as sheet sizes often being different (BR designs try and use 8X6 sheets as there standard concept and thus ribs apear in places where sheets meet, so that the plates do not overwarp from amatuer arc welding, the ribs act as a heat sink and a spot to tack weld to. Of course this makes any reapirs at sea to failed welds utterly impossible, as there is no access from the inside. Commercialy built boats seem to try to deliberatly have their welds happen between ribs. Just saying.

Also, at 65 feet or so, you might as well have safety stuff like watertight compartments and such...all things that simply are not geared into BR designs. You could hire a designer to add them...but then you are paying a designer anyway...and you end up cramming in something that could otherwise be integral and serving several purposes on a boat that actually is thought up that way.

I have not sailed on a BR spray. I have sailed a fair bit on a BR offshore and one of the other housebrick looking types. I went home and wanted to kiss my own boat for its seakindly motion and sure footedness in comparison.

Some people just need to build their own boats, for many it is a way to be a sailor but keep your feet dry and safe for a great many years as the dream slowly takes shape...."Oh yes, I love sailing. 'Building a big boat of my own at the moment, in fact...Been at it for 15 years so far..."

For others the idea is actually to get the boat and get out there. BR designs are for the former segment of the market.

By the way, having thought about your case, My advice would be to spend a couple of thousand dollars and buy a nice old GRP 26footer of some semi-decent kind. Doesn't have to be anything other then a dodgem car as long as it doesn't actually sink out form under you. DO NOT SPEND MONEY SPRUCING IT UP. Do not try and own the prettiest boat in the harbour. Just go sailing. every weekend if you can. And keep a log of what you do and don't like and notions that come to you as you go. Keep looking at big boat designs and ideas as you do this...gradually it will all gell, and you will get some experience in the meantime...including of the stuff that no one ever thinks about "I am knackered just scrubbing the hull on a 26footer...what the hell do I want to do with 65 feet???' type questions which nothing but ownership will get you (like the fun game of "track that smell"...).

After a few months of this you can start approaching designers and yards with a lot more confidence.

It will take them most of a year to build your boat. Not the hull alone, that will fly together, but I promise that it will bog down at some point. When that happens, being able to go sailing on yor own ,allbeit smaller, boat is a great stress relief and sanity keeper.

When the new boat is all doen and sea trialed and "yours"...I promise that you will sell the 26 footer from the 1970's for almost exactly the same money you paid for it. That is a year and a half of free boat hire and sailing lessons, as well as hobby, experience and design testing and development. Best money you will ever spend in boating!

Here endeth the late and probably unnessacerily pompous lesson.
Goodnight



Sasha


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Shack:

Sasha has dropped some real good advice on you there.

The words "You mostly regret the things you didn't try" ring true to me, so by all means go for your dream... but slip in some practicality along the way and the end result will be better all around. 

Gaining some experience while the dream is being formed is a great idea as well.

Good Luck!


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Shack - I've been meaning to ask, exactly which Roberts design were you most taken by ? He has a few in the 60 odd foot range.

Sasha V - Minor point of order, Slocum , according to 'Sailing Alone Around the World', by the time he finished her, said Spray was a completely new boat. He paid nothing for the hulk and spent $553.62 rebuilding her over thirteen months, essentially using the old hull as a mould. Her complete lack of modern amenities would have surely contributed to her sailing performance. Think how light your boat would be if you threw the engine and diesel tanks overboard. When Garry Hoyt launched the first Freedom 40 part of her excellent sailing ability was due to the lack of an engine I believe.

Cheers

tdw


----------



## Sasha_V (Feb 28, 2004)

The figures tally pretty much, then. Wondering why the figure in the book I read is in pounds...but "near enough."

I knew he re-frigged and refitted her extensively for use single handed (there was no rudder at all, when he got her, for instance), but I was unaware that he had reclad her or replaced any of the frames.

By the way...this is the underside of a finished BR Spray









That is good origami, but very bad boat building...and not very pretty to my eyes.
Smooth sleek lines, elegant curves that spread stress loads and glide through the water isntead of trying to bludgeon it....All features not found in this particular design.

By the way, I pulled up a list of Sprays for sale in top condition and the impression seems to be that while building costs (50foot range) are in the $200K+ area overall....resale value for boats that may only be three years old (in terms of hitting the water and being "finished"...nothing to do with the oft decades since they were started) seems to be in the $120-160K range...And they are not selling. Some of the listings have been up for 2 years or more. So that seems a pretty big kick in the teeth right away. And I suspect there is a story behind why you would want to sell a boat you have just finally finished, and take a $50K loss as soon as you have owned it long enough to get a feel for how it sails.

There is a very wise man on this forum named Jeff H. He taught me a lot when I went looking for my boat. Now I ignored much of his advice in the form of data and hard facts (still gambling that might pay off) but I did pick up some really valuable ways of seeing things to do with boat ownership.
The main one of these I have found to be of great value ever since (and which has proved itself well and truly accurate) is that the hull represents about 30% of the monetary investment that makes a "boat". With a pricey construction material like aluminium you can probably call it 35%. This means that you still need to pay very real money for riggin, spars, sails, electronics, fit out etc.

BUT...And this is a size XXL but..

The choice of hull is the MAIN determinate in the boats resale value thereafter.

So lets say you decide to go with a kit plan design, and build it (really well) using fibro cement (I might be guilding the lilly somewhat for this example, I know). Now you have saved a bit on the hull...but you still have to buy top of the line spars (especially to push the heavier, less efficient hull around) and rigging and hardware and so on.... So your saving is not that huge across the entire project. But when you go to sell it....It will be just another concrete boat that people shake their heads at. The choice of hull material and design has devalued the rest of your investment. This is basically what BR design builders do not seem to realise, or if they do, they make the trade off because building their big boat in the BR way means they get to spend $100 here and there over a period of years instead of having to cough up thousands upon thousands at a go. This makes sense to some poeple and thus it has a market....I would rather decide between buying a small and reasonable boat I could afford right now or taking out a loan and absorbing the interest as the cost of getting something good...and getting it NOW.

So the deal is. When buying a used sailboat off a website or magazine, do not calculate spending every dollar in your budget ont he purchase price. What you want to spend is about 75% of your budget, as the rest goes on what it takes to make the boat, ready, yours and where you need it to be (as well as insured and legal and such).

When building, consider that the budget for the big bit that you actually sit in and live in and think of as "the boat, mostly" is only 1/3 of what the total cost is going to need to be. 
It is a great rule of thumb to not have financial heart attacks and crippling delays due to cost over-runs.

Rememebr, any money you have left over at the end of the project just translates as buying extra time and freedom to actually spend sailing (the cruising kitty). That's a really good reason to use the rule of thumb!

Sasha


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Confirmation*

 Sasha-
It's reassuring hearing your advice about getting a 26 footer to play around with for while. I just happened to buy a 25 footer this year, and I have been playing around with her over the summer. Both my wife and I had the opportunity to complete a formal course of instruction for sailing keelboats, and we have quickly become avid day sailors after work or on weekends in an effort to increase our experience base and undertake any coastal navigation course by next year. Who knows. We may even move up to 35 footer shortly after that.

The maintenance portion on our little Cape Dory has been real work, but very gratifying in that we were able to crawl over every inch of the boat and learn its peculiarities. It's also been very satisfying to experience the mechanical and electrical concepts of which I have read into this far-come to life in living color. We're very proud of our little boat.

I'm almost finished installing shore power, and just completed sale repairs for the season. Now I should here looking at an envelope of study plans from one designer, deciding now whether to open it or wait until morning.

I like your points and advice regarding BR Spray. Your input is exactly what I was looking for one I started this thread. (Cool picture by the way).


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

tdw said:


> Shack - I've been meaning to ask, exactly which Roberts design were you most taken by ? He has a few in the 60 odd foot range.


TDW -
What first caught my eye from the Bruce Roberts designs was the Trader 65. It's basically a spray hull with some modifications. Most notably is the cargo/trade area. A design such as this provides suitable space for a tradesmen to set up shop, as well as space for a comfortable live aboard.


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

You know that thing has pretty nice lines for a Roberts design and I don't like Robert's design in general. I'd have to disagree about the comparison to the Spray. I think this is a much sweeter looking hull than any of the Sprays. I have to admit bias here as I own a Van de Stadt.
cheers
tdw


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Sasha_V said:


> Okay, several points. First having a porfessional yard build a BR Spray would be a waste of that yards skills and your money. You would end up with a somwwhat overbuilt and less then optimal boat that you paid nearly as much (or maybe a little more) for as you would have if you had persued a better design, that actually knew a skilled yard would build it right form the design stage.
> 
> The spray's resale value would still be that of a BR spray....regardless of the fact that it was the priciest one in christendom because you had master craftsmen do every welded inch. So as an investment it seems a poor step.
> 
> ...


Can't claim to have any familiarity with Bruce Roberts designs but I think this is very good advice. A smaller boat (to start) is a great way of finding out if the actuality stands up to the romantic. If you don't love it or use it (while you are figuring out what you really want in a larger boat) you may save yourself a very costly and time-consuming error.

Also, it may cause you to rethink the aluminim or steel hull and even the 60 + ideas. One can certainly cruise the world comfortably in a boat in the 40 to 48 foot range with a far greater flexibility (and a much smaller crew or even single-handed) and without all the maintenance issues caused by a steel hull.

If I were you, I'd find an old Pearson 323 or something like it and continue working on the master plan. In all events I wish you the best and envy you putting your dreams into action. I hope that it all works out well for you.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

I posted the previous post before I saw your post about the 25 foot boat. Sounds like you are on the right track and the best of luck to you.


----------



## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

*Bruce Roberts 44ft custom*

Dear all

I've found this boat on yachtworld. I'm in the market for an offshore boat to take my family of four out for a year long cruise in exactly two years and then later after the kids leave home (they're teenagers) continue offshore sailing with my wife. Therefore the boat I look at needs to be up to that.

We're reasonably experienced (took our currentl boat from Vancouver to Alaska and back last summer and halfway up this summer. I've sailed across the Caribbean and around Vancouver Island. We've never sailed a ketch though.

This boat does intrigue me however. Opinions appreciated.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&currencyid=100&boat_id=1581880&checked_boats=1581880&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp%3Fsm%3D3%26toLength%3D44%26cit%3Dtrue%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26fromLength%3D44%26man%3DBruce%2BRoberts%26slim%3Dquick&searchtype=

Thanks

Magnus


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Different from the Spray??*



tdw said:


> I'd have to disagree about the comparison to the Spray. I think this is a much sweeter looking hull than any of the Sprays. I have to admit bias here as I own a Van de Stadt.
> cheers
> tdw


TDW-
Well now, shame on you.  You are telling me that the Trader 65 is not that closely related to the Spray? Now I feel have to take another look.

Sasha-
TDW brings up an interesting point. Go ahead and take a look at this web site as well http://www.bruceroberts.com/public/HTML/descriptions/trader65_description.htm
I would be interested in both of your opinions on this specific hull design.

Boy, the tough part about this is trying to read through the salesmanship of other designers. I would love to ask the opinions of some naval architects, but I would want their unvarnished opinion. So goes life I suppose.


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

shack - One other pointer for you, if you are thinking of metal then go have a look at 'The Metal Boat Society'. I've only been a metal boat owner for six months or so now but the info I've got out the MBS has been well worth the subscription cost which is from memory USD35.00 per annum.

http://www.metalboatsociety.org/default.htm

Cheers

tdw


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Shack... why is it again that you've decided on a metal boat? With Kevlar, Arimid, Turawon & such they can build tougher than steel hulls out of glass now and you don't have to live with any of metal's drawbacks. 
Most people get into metal for high latitude sailing or due to their own boat-building skills or because they have some exotic design they can't get executed any other way. It seems to me that you are searching for a design and won't be building it yourself so is the Arctic in your future?


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Camaraderie asks a good question there Shack. While I own a steel boat I didn't set out to go steel it just happened that the right boat turned out to be steel. I fully expect that our next boat will be glass again. Quite frankly I prefer the low maintenance option but the only materials I would definitely rule out would be planked timber (and I don't include cold moulded, triple diagonal planked, west system etc) and concrete.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Magnusmurphy,
A long time ago, I was intrigued by the idea of building my own sailboat, and I looked extensively into the Bruce Roberts designs. Went so far as to buy one of his books, and corresponded with Bruce Roberts himself, who seems very earnest and approachable. I finally concluded that it was a foolish idea to try to build a large sailboat (I was hoping for something in the 50 ft range). Since then, I have reviewed a lot of opinion about building one's own boat, and I was on target with my initial analysis.
But back to your question: There certainly are plenty of Roberts designs out there on the seas cruising, but one thing I will remark about the ad you linked to: it's the defensive tone used to describe the boat in the ad. It almost sounds more like a rebuttal than a testimonial. The other thing I will say about buying a "custom" boat is that irrespective of the build quality and sailing characteristics, my readings suggest that these boats have tended to be extremely difficult to sell once one owns one. The "brand name" issue comes into play, and boats built by recognized yards seem to hold value better. There's a huge discount for "custom". I'm sure you are not contemplating selling the boat in the finite future, but resale value should be part of your own consideration in valuation of a prospective boat.
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert in these matters. I own a (oh dear) production boat from one of the Big Three, a Catalina 42 (bias admitted). Just an interested novice who enjoys discussion.
Q


----------



## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

*Bruce Roberts*

Dear Quetzalcoatl

Thank you for your opinion. I agree with your impression of the tone of the ad - I've noticed it as well, as have other people. Quite interesting.

Your comments regarding resale value are also true and should be considered.

Thanks

Magnus


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Wide Open*

Comrade and T. D. W.

Make no mistake. I'm not as set on metal, fiberglass, wood, bamboo, or papier-mâché. Keep in mind climate day early stages and examining only options. Although the topic here is focused on metal boat designs, on a closed other materials either. I've seen a lot of nice big boats made of fiberglass, and trust that that is in the back of my mind as well.

I wonder if anyone out there has yet had the balls to make a *cruising boat *with a carbon fiber hull and epoxy resin!?  just kidding.

Anyway, steel and aluminum are not bad materials, and I have been learning quite a bit these past months.

 Hey Hey Hey!!
Have any of you guys seen a 50 plus fiberglass sailboat that has a schooner rigging and a trade/cargo area?


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

Q & Murphy-

I have to agree that most products that are worthwhile usually end up selling themselves. Your observation on the defensive nature of the "sales pitch" made me look like this . Ever since I watched a friend put together a web site that marketed a product - I have changed the way that I view product endorsements altogether.

I prefer Word-of-mouth; I swear by it.

I am sitting down soon to take a look at study plans for some Dudley Dix and Ted Brewer stuff. They have shorter but similar designs of what I'm looking for. Dudley has say Hauton Bay and a Cargo 50; Brewer has 50' design named Albatross. Pretty nice designs, but each of them is lacking a thing or two here and there that may require design modifications that might be asking too much. Not sure yet, haven't taken a real close look at the designs yet - but hell, that's all partt of the fun, right?


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Shack*

As a matter of fact, there is a cruising boat available with Carbon fiber skin, Nomex honeycomb construction, epoxy resin, and kevlar-reinforced hull....
I'm not doing a commercial, I wish I could afford one of these. Very pricey!
I'll give you a link if you really aren't joking. Hint: from the folks who designed "Playstation"
Q (...if I win that lottery...)


----------



## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

No No!  

If you sent me that link I would have to look at it. That may just ruin me.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 20, 2015)

*Re: Over the Horizon . ..*

Herb Braybrook
Light aircraft pilot for 40 years
Rarely got more that 100ft off the ground
Spray pilot / bush pilot
In the same boat!
Great Reply
Hope you find yours

Sincerely 
Herbert
WGC-9519


----------



## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Zombie thread alert


----------



## capt jgwinks (Sep 24, 2013)

If you think it will take five years to complete, plan on fifteen. Unless you are independently wealthy, you'll have to work to support yourself and the project. If you don't have to work, you can afford to buy a complete boat. There is a reason partially completed hulls are available. The owner died before he could finish the boat. Probably half or more of home built boats never get finished, especially in the larger sizes. I built a Roberts 24 back in the 1980's. Took six years to finish. I was pretty happy with the boat, it was pretty and sailed really well but had little resale value. I could have bought a similar used boat a lot cheaper or a new one for not a whole lot more.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Old thread but..... an old rule of thumb for estimating the hours needed to build a boat was 800 hours per ton of displacement. Keep in mind that a normal full time work year is 2000 hours.


----------

