# Bavaria Sailboats



## bmulvihi (Feb 5, 2007)

I am looking to buy a newer used sailboat in the range of 38 feet. I have read this post and many boats are discussed especially Catalina, Hunter and Beneteau. I wonder if someone out there with some knowledge could give me some insight on the Bavaria boats and perhaps rate them against these other mass produced boats in terms of the trade-offs they present in terms of comfort versus sailablility. Thanks. Bill


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

They are generally not well thought of. Do a search and you'll find some threads. Welcome aboard!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have had my Bavaria 40 for 5 years now. It is well built and shows little sign of wear & tear. It sails very well and is as quick, if not quicker on some points of sail, as comparable boats. It is well balanced and inspires confidence in big seas and is easily managed by a crew of two. The interior is better fitting than the French boats. I believe it offers a fine balance of price and quality and ability.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

As Cam says, most people trash them. But I have a good friend with a fairly new Bavaria 36 and he loves it. Bavaria is a mass producer with one of the slickest factories anywhere -- very automated and efficient. YMMV.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

We chartered Bavaria 33 and 36 in Norway, in some very demanding waters (this was also the worst weather I ever sailed in). They behave very well under tough conditions. We had Beneteau of the same size chartered for another part of the group and, when compared side by side, Bavaria certainly made better impression overall.

That said, it is a production boat with all that stems from that.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Bavaria got a lot of bad press, mostly in Europe, based on design defects in a couple of their new Match series racers - there are threads here or sailinganarchy(dot)com on this - reading the details left me agast that a major builder could do such an obviously bad job...and they tried to cover their tracks with marketing mumbo-jumbo and finger pointing, as if running aground once would excuse a keel falling off...

That being said, not necessarily a reason not to consider some of their well-established production boats, unless the way they handling screwing a bunch of other customers (not to mention killing one) makes you uncomfortable about having anything to do with the build.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sailingby

The Bavaria boats have had some keel problems which resulted in a few deaths a while back... The keel actually fell of the boat because the keel attachment was not strong enough. Not all of the boats that were on the used market have had the necessary keel reinforcement, so if you should double check that your boat has had the necessary changes made. 

However, your boat may be old enough to be from the series before the newer designs that had the keel problem.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

SD, what's wrong with having a quick-detach keel for handy trailer stowage on a boat?<G>

OTOH, this could be like the clobbering Audi took in the US some years ago. Maybe the fuss over keels will drive Bavaria prices down enough to make it worth buying one and doing the keel work.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

We went aboard a couple of new Bavaria's at the Annapolis boat show. I wasn't in the market for a new boat so didn't get into the nuts and bolts of how they are built, but they clearly chose to save some money in the interior. The area around the nav station on both of the Bavaria's we went on could only be described as "cheesy". Lots and lots of cheap fake wood looking plastic like a low end car.

They just didn't compare very favorably on that score with any of the other production boats. They may be similar in quality otherwise, but I know I'd have a hard time convincing the admiral of that, f I were looking for a new boat.


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

I chartered several Bavarias (34 to 40 feet -they are very popular here in Adriatic sea because the are cheap). 
To my standards all hardware is undersized on Bavarias. They are however quite OK for protected waters, but I know of one guy who wanted to sail it across Atlantic and had a severe hull-deck separation (without a major storm) - I think she was a 32 feet boat - not really designed for oceans.
I also read all about keels problems on their "match" series and the arrogant response of Bavaria and the dealer almost made me sick ("If you race a BMW and drive it into a wall you also get some damage..").
I think they no longer sell match series at all. Most had keel attachments reinforced after the incident.
You must understand the design point of those boats: 
Majority is sailing in Adriatic sea in summer months. Typical wind force is 3 and dies at sunset. The waves are small (mostly less than a feet), lots of small islands - all very close (like this 
http://www.kornati.hr/images/galerija/Zakan_JI.jpg ). There is also good weather forecast.
Most boats are out on a day sail and safely moored to the dock in some protected harbour or marina during the night. Usually with shore power (default battery of Bavaria is very small).
So, the boats are suitable for that purpose. 
The woodwork inside is - well low cost. You get what you pay for. Their "Vision" series may be better - I do not know them, but the "cruiser" series (most popular here) is vary basic. 
But you get a 38 footer for a price of a 30 footer. So - if you need her for protected water - why not.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have crawled through the Bavarias on several occasions. My impression a few years ago was that they were a step down from the other high production builders (Hunter, Beneteau and Catalina) in terms of the quality of the glasswork and structural detailing. The more recent Bavarias seem to be slightly improved but so have the boats by the big three.

Jeff


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## Denr (Feb 7, 2001)

Like Jeff I have crawled through them at boat shows with flash light in hand examining the bowels of them. I was was significantly UNIMPRESSED. Lots of unfinished areas, poor storage for the size of the vessel, poorly set up for sailing and the sides of the hulls when sighting down them looked like the Mississippi River on a windy day, very wavy. The worst feature, the faux wood cabin sole, gives new meaning to cheesy!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Only the Match series had keel problems.

They are only as good as what you pay for them...good boats for day sails near the coast, and cheap..not very fast and easy to sail.

Agree on lower quality interior and fake wood, but they're OK for local sail.

By the way...a few Bavarias crossed the Atlantic this year from Canary Islands to the US in a large crossing gathering that was made. They all but a 50 foot made it ok....


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

Given that they produce the boat in Germany, and given the price-point, there have to be some _serious_ compromises in the build/rigging quality.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Looking at Bavarias at the Sydney Boat Show last year was a big disappointment. They just shrieked "cheep cheep". No way they compared in build quality to Elan, Hanse or even the dreaded Beneteau but they are also cheaper to buy than any of those I think. (maybe wrong there, didn't go into the price thing all that carefully.)

On the other hand there was a ten year old Bavaria 35 that was moored next to us and that was a lovely boat. Looked and felt nice and solid, had cruised extensively and with no major problems. Still wish it had a skeg.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Denr said:


> Like Jeff I have crawled through them at boat shows with flash light in hand examining the bowels of them. I was was significantly UNIMPRESSED. Lots of unfinished areas, poor storage for the size of the vessel, poorly set up for sailing and the sides of the hulls when sighting down them looked like the Mississippi River on a windy day, very wavy. The worst feature, the faux wood cabin sole, gives new meaning to cheesy!


To be fair, you can find this on Dufours, Hanses and a number of other popular production boats (I won't bother naming the usual suspects). I have found far less to ***** about on Tartans and J-Boats, both of which I thought were capable of sailing as advertised.

I look forward to crawling around in a better class of boat than you find at Toronto boat shows one day. I have some fairly set ideas of what constitutes "seaworthy" and some salesman barking "certified Lloyd Ocean A!" or something doesn't excuse 24 inch lifelines. Unless you are a wealthy, seagoing Munchkin, I suppose.


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## Alden68 (Mar 21, 2007)

People seem to equate crossing the Atlantic with boat quality. However, no matter how many barrels go over niagara, no one ever comments on the quality of the barrels involved. Quality should be judged not by what something can achieve when pushed, but by how it handles day to day in the environment in which it was designed to exist. The quality of the Bavaria product raises too many questions to whole heartedly say that it is a quality product. I strongly believe that you should not be lured by marketing tactics.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I don't hold coastal cruisers (or at least boats sold to the coastal cruiser/fair weather crowd) to the same standard. But when part of the sail patter explicitly speaks to "bluewater/oceanic" capabilities and certifications, and when you can see the absence of padeyes, low-rider lifelines, inadequate handholds, no provision for storm shutters, huge companionways with missing bridgedecks and 1/4" plastic dropboards, 200 gallon cockpits, tiny bilge pumps, vast saloons, etc.... well, I have to wonder what's happened to the tried and tested concept of "oceanic".

I don't care if these things are absent on a coastal cruiser, because they are geared for entertainment, comfort and ease of operation on light-air days. But you can have a fast, sleek and comfortable offshore cruiser that DOES have these attributes...it just costs more.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

We talk a lot around these threads about "Blue Water" and crossing the Oceans, my question is and I often wonder, what percentage of the overall sailing population is considered to be true "Blue Water Sailors/Long Range Cruisers"?
I would be willing to bet that the number is very, very low; maybe around 5% or so of the overall sailing population, maybe its even less than that.
What is the percentage of this, the active members here on sailnet, that consider themselves to be "Blue Water" sailors?
Can we take a poll?
It seems to me that all we discuss are wether this or that is "Blue Water" capable, when in reality, most of us don't intend to do any "Blue Water" sailing.
Some do, but many don't.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

> What is the percentage of this, the active members here on sailnet, that consider themselves to be "Blue Water" sailors?
> Can we take a poll?


I have never crossed an ocean in my boat or gone beyond the continental shelf in one owned by me, but I've sailed in the Atlantic Ocean hundreds of times. Although my boat may be capable of this and I have dreamed of making an ocean crossing, my wife could never be convinced to do so - for as long as we are married.

Therefore, FWIW, I suppose I would technically be considered as a _green water_ sailor.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Valiente, the first recorded bluewater passage appears to have been made in an un-named "Ark" class vessel captained by some guy named "Noah". Records are scanty but it appears there were no jackstraps or other conventional safety equipment onboard and that the captain placed all his faith in divine intervention alone, deeming that sufficient.

So, perhaps Bavaria IS building a true bluewater boat, and it is just the rest of us that have gotten our thinking wrong?<G>


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

TrueBlue said:


> I suppose I would technically be considered as a _green water_ sailor.


Great Lakes Costal Cruiser Here.
In the middle no more than twenty miles to each shoreline.

If your interested, Cam has started a Poll in a different thread.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailortjk1 said:


> It seems to me that all we discuss are wether this or that is "Blue Water" capable, when in reality, most of us don't intend to do any "Blue Water" sailing.
> Some do, but many don't.


This is true, and it's a distinction most don't make, as "bluewater" connotes not only the capabilities of the boat, but via association the skill and experience of the crew.

I won't criticize the decision to buy a wide-open, lightly built production boat if the purposes are, as is 95% of boating, daysailing or coastal cruising. I will criticize taking such boats offshore and expecting offshore endurance or, more likely, a movement so "whippy" that it exhausts and endangers the crew.

What gets up my nose is the representation for the purposes of marketing certain coastal-capable cruisers as "performance bluewater cruisers".

Saying it might get some sales from the "heading to Fiji, stopped in BVIs" crowd (and more power to them if that's what they want), but it does not make said boats offshore-capable.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> Valiente, the first recorded bluewater passage appears to have been made in an un-named "Ark" class vessel captained by some guy named "Noah". Records are scanty but it appears there were no jackstraps or other conventional safety equipment onboard and that the captain placed all his faith in divine intervention alone, deeming that sufficient.
> 
> So, perhaps Bavaria IS building a true bluewater boat, and it is just the rest of us that have gotten our thinking wrong?<G>


It wouldn't be the first appearance of faith-based boat design. Look at most of the Hunter line. If they don't induce desperate prayer when seen in ten-foot seas, I don't know what will.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Valiente said:


> What gets up my nose is the representation for the purposes of marketing certain coastal-capable cruisers as "performance bluewater cruisers".


Agreed. 100%


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