# Cost to do a proper varnish job



## LittleWingCA (Jul 17, 2008)

Hi Everyone:

I currently have my 1980 Orion 27 hauled out to have a thru hull and seacock replaced ( Posted a picture in another thread and a few people were highly concerned ). While it is out, I had the yard quote me on what it would cost to strip all the brightwork down to wood, apply 8 coats of varnish with sanding between coats, and do a final top coat, detail, unmask, etc. The boat is 27 feel long and here are the pieces they were going to redo:

Cap Rails, Eyebrow Trim (2), Bow Sprit platform, Companion Way hatch, Top Grab Rails (4), Flue Bases (2), Hatch Base, Sampson Posts (2), Chain Plate Standoffs (2), and the Cockpit Table.

No wood repair, or color matching, or bleaching of wood. 

The estimated labor was 400 hours @ $63/hour for $25,200 and $770 for parts. OUCH!!   I guess they really don't want to do the work. Does this seem correct? I will do it myself, but what have others paid to have this done? I called the project manager assigned to my boat to make sure it wasn't a typo on the estimate, and he is serious.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

I'll do it for $40 and hour with the same time estimate. Varnishing is a huge PITA and that's why production boats are plastic. I put 13-15 coats on mine, and I have very little teak. Took forever, and it stopped being fun after the first 5 coats. That is an incredible quote, reinforces why so many just oil their teak and give up on varnish.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

This is why i have very little teak outside and it looks like crap.

This is 90% of the teak on my boat.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

May I suggest you sand it down...put on 2 coats of Cetol Natural teak and 2 coats of Cetol gloss with NO sanding between coats. Should run you about 60 bucks in materials and 3-4 days of work. Results look quite nice and NEVER require sanding again...just light scrubbing and a touch up coat or two of gloss once a year.


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## LittleWingCA (Jul 17, 2008)

Camaraderie:

Any pictures of what it looks like? What are the benefits of Teak oil? Can that be applied after the Flagship Varnish is stripped off?


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

First off; they don't want to do the work or they would not have given that ridiculously high quote. Second; prepping for varnish or Cetol does take time but it is not super hard and can be done in sections (you don't have to do everything at once). I would sand or heat-gun remove everything you can at the yard then do the application of finish while in your slip. If you don't want to paint everything at once (time/temp/wind conditions might not allow it); you can do a final prep (tape, light sand and and acetone wipe) on one section and varnish it while the others weather lightly. Being in So Cal you should have way more time/opportunity to do the finish work than here in Nor-Cal or where it snows in the winter.

You can use teak oil; but the wood will weather/gray from sun and mildew growth. Personally I prefer finished teak on the rails and all non-walking surfaces; decks should be left natural for traction.

Cetol is excellent IMHO; the "natural teak" color is outstanding. You don't need 4 coats of base color, 2-3 looks best IMHO with the clear gloss used as topcoat and annual maintenance coat. Do a search on this forum for Cetol; there are some pictures in the threads.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Littlewing,

That's a ridiculous quote. They must not need or want the work.

Good advice above. We are using Cetol Light and it's a pretty decent finish (we started with it before the new "natural" color came out). I actually prefer the look of varnish -- but the Cetol's a lot easier to maintain.

Our boats have a fair bit of teak trim. I've found it's easiest to work on it in segments. This makes the tasks more manageable, with the downside that we never have all the teak looking "bristol" at the same time. Oh well, that doesn't really bother me. 

P.S. Does anybody know whether we could switch to the new "Natural" Cetol without stripping al the old "Light"?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

LittleWing...here's a shot of my toe rail done in Cetol as described above but using Cetol and Cetol Gloss instead of Cetol Natural and Cetol Gloss. Helped on another boat using the Cetol Natural last summer and it looks even better and closer to varnish. 
My decks are just bare teak kept in shape with salt water. Anything else just becomes a pain. Some folks use teak oil on decks because it looks nice when you do it. Unfortunately, the oil holds dirt and pollution and gets really ugly rather quickly. I prefer to just leave it alone but the saltwater is critical to keeping it well preserved. Don't sand or use harsh chemicals on deck teak ...just boat soap and a reasonably soft scrub brush to clean it up and then let nature (and salt water) do the rest as keelhaulin says above.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/buying-boat/40254-endeavour-42-a.html#post259546


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

JRP...you CAN switch but the wood grain will be more obscured. Are you using the gloss on top? If so, that will need to go before switching the bottom coat. 
FWIW..."light" with gloss looks pretty good too just not quite as good...but I sure wouldn't sand down to bare for the minor improvement!


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

And if you don't get in a rush. Most likely yourwork will be as good, and probably better than the yards........BEST WISHES...I2F


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## donradclife (May 19, 2007)

The quote is ridiculous--400 man-hours is 10 man-WEEKS. Whoever is planning to do the job is going to put on less than one coat of varnish per WEEK! They should plan on two-three days of prep and then one coat per DAY. You can also save a lot of time and money with the two-part varnishes like Bristol Finish, where you can apply about 4 coats per day/between sanding.

In Thailand, the whole job would cost less than $1,000, but in SoCal, it will probably be $3-5K.


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## LittleWingCA (Jul 17, 2008)

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I figured the quote was just a "We are too busy to do it" type of quote. They have a few mega yachts in the yard that the painters are busy with. I will do the job myself over time, and save the money. I appreciate the input.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Second Cam's suggestion of Cetol...  I prefer sailing to varnishing, so have no exterior wood on my boat aside from the tiller.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> JRP...you CAN switch but the wood grain will be more obscured. Are you using the gloss on top? If so, that will need to go before switching the bottom coat.
> FWIW..."light" with gloss looks pretty good too just not quite as good...but I sure wouldn't sand down to bare for the minor improvement!


Thanks for that info Cam.

No, I'm not using the gloss, but I still have a pretty good supply of "Light" so I think I'll use it up before I switch over -- especially if there's not a huge difference.

Much appreciated.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

The only exterior piece of teak on my boat is the pigstick, all 4 feet of it, mostly covered by the ensign, and taken inside when I'm not actually on the boat. 
The interior on the other hand was bought new with just oiled teak, acetone wipes, sanding and varnishing that MIGHT be 400 hours for a professional (meaning one who charges by the hour) but I've got 80% of it done with three coats, some still bare in about 60.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Littlewing, I'm doing my teak now with Cetol Marine ( 2 over 3 ), what I have done so far ( which a isn't much ) looks far better than what the guy next to me paid for and continues to have redone every 2-3-4 months, (it's rediculous)

Mine will take couple months to complete because I'm doing it on the weekends and between sailing , but, I will have spent around 500 bucks in material and it will look great

Below is a example of what I have to do



















I almost have the cabin trim, boxes, hatches & handholds finished

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e352/jpivey/Tayana.jpg


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## Shortman (Feb 12, 2006)

*Do it, then decide it's ridiculous.*

Ridiculous quote and worth it are two separate questions. No, its probably not worth it to you, but it probably would take that much time and $63 is not a bad rate for yard work. They've got expenses. I run a similar operation, an architectural woodwork shop, and I know what costs are. For instance $4.38/hr for the company's 70% share of a decent family health insurance plan. Then rent, then electricity, then payroll, then worker's comp, then . . . . There's way more to "outrageous" boatyard rates than meets the eye. Sorry for the rant.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Shortman said:


> No, its probably not worth it to you, but it probably would take that much time and $63 is not a bad rate for yard work. They've got expenses. I run a similar operation, an architectural woodwork shop, and I know what costs are. For instance $4.38/hr for the company's 70% share of a decent family health insurance plan. Then rent, then electricity, then payroll, then worker's comp, then . . . . There's way more to "outrageous" boatyard rates than meets the eye. Sorry for the rant.


OK got two issues with this:

1) 10 weeks is quite ridiculous for re-finishing trim. What are they going to do hand-sand it? I can see it being more time consuming if they could not use a sander, stripper or heat gun; but really 10 weeks? I think they don't want the job.

2) If you quoted an owner somewhere approaching 1/2 the cost of a used 28' boat to do brightwork; would you expect to get their business or any more of it? In my mind I would think that a quote like that would make me want to take my boat to a different yard the next time. I'm sure they do high quality work and yes doing brightwork takes time to do properly but mainly it is in the initial surface prep and waiting for the right time to put finish on; but certainly it should not take 10 weeks (maybe 10 weekends if you DIY'd it on spare time). That boat has minimal exterior teak trim BTW...


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## Shortman (Feb 12, 2006)

*No yard wants the business*

if they think they will lose $$. Also, if you or I spent $23K on a varnish job, we'd be looking at it with a microscope nit picking the details. You gotta redo this, you gotta redo that. 400 is probably too much, but my real point is that I read too many posts about yards "ripping people off", and then you see some of these same yards closing their doors because they can't meet costs.


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## RickQuann (May 27, 2005)

We have a Cabo 38 in our marina and the former owner paid someone 800.00, twice a year to maintain the brightwork (in the slip) using the two part Bristol finish.
I use Cetol and pleased with the results but I do not have much wood above decks. 

Nice job PDP


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Yeah; some people just love to spend money on brightwork maintenance. I'm VERY happy with my Cetol and annual to semi-annual maintenance coat of the clearcoat. It really is not that hard; I'd say the biggest job is getting the tape down properly (don't use anything but the 3M blue tape BTW).

There is a wood hulled schooner (not sure of the builder) a few doors down from us who has some amazing teak brightwork; IIRC he has his own employees to come down and maintain the cetol and masts once a year. They spent a few weeks this year sanding the masts down and re-varnishing them; that looked like a fun job (not). The saddest thing is that the boat never seems to leave the slip or have anyone aboard; but it is a beautiful and well maintained boat.


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## sailing320 (Jul 5, 2007)

18 months ago I had someone strip all my varnish off and apply Cetol. I like the look a lot. I still have to apply 4-6 coats every 6 months. The South Florida sun is harsh.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Wow; that's fast breakdown of the UV inhibitor. You might want to invest in some canvas covers; expensive to have made but if you can sew or know someone who can you could make the covers for a reasonable price. I want covers for my trim but have not got around to it yet. There is a boat in our marina (looks like a Southern Cross) that has full covers on every piece of teak; amazing canvas job. The Cetol finished teak always looks like new when the covers come off. Use a light color Sunbrella so the UV won't severely fade the color.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

320...try the Cetol gloss coat instead of more colored Cetol which just obscures the wood as you lay more coats on!


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## sailing320 (Jul 5, 2007)

Camaraderie, I put 2 coats natural and 4 coats gloss. My boat is docked in Miami and the sun eats everything up. Any other suggestions? It is expensive to keep up with. I don't have the time so I pay to have it done.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

LOL...Maybe find a shady spot?


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## davidcms (Sep 1, 2008)

*brite work costs*

we have a shannon 43 ketch. the 4.5 ft bow platform, eyebrows, dorade boxes, toe rails , etc are teak/
its 1800-2200/yr for 3 coats. varnish, gloss
i dont like the orange in Cetol, but maybee have not seen all the shades.
i dont "love spending money" but my first boat was a sunfish and this is my second and last one and i love her, so she gets her hair done once a year.
david
northern calif. vallejo


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## sailpilot253 (Oct 17, 2007)

*Varnish prices*

I recently had the brightwork stripped and 10 coats of Epifanes applied, sanding between coats. The boat is a Cape Dory Custom 40. The price was $8,500. 
The providers were from St. Vincent, legally here on temporary work visas, and were insured. They were seasoned pros in the yacht refinishing world, and were here to make some $$$ to take back home. The result is fabulous!
The problem getting this work done here is that the yards want their full labor rate for all of this work, even though some is unskilled. They really don't want to be involved in this work, hence the ridiculous quotes. Our marina quotes at $95/hr. I call it an "IQ test".
My guys handled the labor problem by using 5 people. All polite workers, very happy to have the work, with no goal other that the best job possible. They worked in high heat and humidity, took off most removable hardware, and didn't take breaks (even for lunch). they finished in about 2 weeks. My slip neighbor said she "had never witnessed humans working that hard".


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## RobSails (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: No yard wants the business*

I own a boat maintenance company here in South West Florida. My going rate is $30 a foot. In no way shape or form should that boat take that kind of time to complete. I stripped down a CSY 44 step over cockpit using a heat gun as well as sanded everything that was being refinished in about 65 hours. This also included taping the boat off cleaning the teak and brightening the teak as well as removal of the winches that I have to clean and lube. I work a lone and from time to time may have a person come hold the float for me as I work on the teak on the out side hull All said and done I Will have roughly 80 to 90 hours in on this boat. The only things I did not strip are the blocks the turning blocks are on and the butterfly hatches. Everyone else in my area charges around $60 an hour to do the work I do for $30. Guess who stays busy? ;-)


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

When it comes to varnish, you get what you pay for. Actually, $60 bucks an hour is very reasonable for varnish work in the States. If you want it to look good and have that depth that nothing but varnish can give, then it will take time and skill. Your boat may not be some 5 million dollar megayacht, but the time and effort that go into making your wood look like theirs is exactly the same.
I've been around this industry over 50 years and I can't believe any yard would take the time to estimate a job they didn't want to do. That's just silly.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There are two trades where I find some vendors just price up jobs and only want the ones that will pay big: brightwork and canvas. While there is variability is quality in all vendors, I do not find it is well correlated to price in those two.

Our local varnish vendor is a total rip off. I can get the same quality for half the price. In fact, he uses unskilled grunt labor for everything but the top coats, but charges a flat rate per hour. The last bill I paid to him was to simply remove the varnish and I never went back. I do my own cockpit table and cockpit access pieces and that's it now.

We also had a canvas guy nearby that wanted to replace my canvas. I was at least a couple of years away, but was chatting on the dock and asked him to give me a number to prepare for. He said $9k. Not entirely unlike what I was expecting. The following year, he came by to see if I was ready and I asked whether his estimate was still good. He said he couldn't remember it, but thought it should be about $12k. At the end of that season, I was ready and asked for a solid quote..... $16k. It turns out, he was preparing to retire and only wanted to do jobs that would overpay. He got one too. A 37ft Island Packet in our marina (out of town owners) paid him $19k to do their enclosure. I literally packaged up my enclosure, mailed it back to the shop that made it initially and they sent me a brand new one for about $7k. Some said that couldn't be done, but it worked very well.


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## DeGraw75 (Aug 22, 2016)

In my opinion varnish shouldn't be used in high traffic areas like floors and seating. I am using Dalys Seafin Teak Oil in these areas along with my toe rail. So far it looks great, I have put 4 coats on and there has been no graying. Mind you I live in Michigan, but it is my understanding that an oil like this has varnish in it which will build a protective barrier. I like the fact that it can be done in under an hour, takes zero tape, and no thinners are required. I leave my cheap chipping brush in a container of the stuff and simply open the lid but on a coat and put it away. This could even be applied while underway as long as its an area that can be left to dry for an hour or so. I Have plenty of mahogany which needs constant attention so I use oil wherever possible.


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