# Scared of inboards and the Volvo md7a



## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I'm buying a boat soon, my first that has an inboard and I'm pretty terrified of them. Of the whole new boat thing the inboard scares me the most. I've only had outboards. I like outboard, I kind of trust outboard. If they break you can pull it and get a new one.

Inboards sound like a superior concept, but so many boats have in the listing repowered. Which is good, and makes sense. Many of them are 30 plus years old, I could see them biting the dust. 

But how reliable are they? My friend said that when looking at boats, even having a mechanic come look at the engine, it's still a 50/50 chance he could tell if there is anything wrong with it.

Are they ok? One of the major reasons I fear them is that if it goes, I'm immediately out 10,000$ and would instantly regret having purchased that boat. I can get new sails if I need to, even deck hardware, rigging, buy some nice electronics to replace outdated stuff, but I really don't think I could get a whole new engine. 

Plus I need an engine, I realize it's a sailboat, but I motor when I need to, I want a big fuel tank so I can motor for hours if the wind dies. I need an engine I can rely on. 

How high should I prioritize a new, or rebuilt engine? The boat I want has the original Volvo md7a. It's had recent work done, water pump rebuilt, professionally flushed and a new exhaust system. What are your thoughts on this 1979 engine, a ticking time bomb? Or perhaps a well maintained engine, that could last me for years to come.

Believe this, I don't know much about diesel boat engines, but I will learn everything I can and will take the utmost care and do the proper maintenance of it once it's mine. But if it's already on its way out.....

Another boat high on my lost has a brand new beta to replace the old atomic 4. Should I be placing this higher in my criteria?


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

North,
Mexico is notorious for light air. My planning numbers is to be able to motor for 48 hours between refueling. Gas engines usually don’t have as good of fuel economy as diesel. I’ve been running diesels for the past 20-25 years. I was initially nervous switching over from gas but now I’m a really big fan of diesel. Very simple to maintain. Volvos have a bad reputation of being very, very expensive for parts. The Kubota has been very reliable for me (Universal “marineizes” them). Yanmars are about the most common engine brand in sailboats today. That means parts (think filters) are relatively easy to come by (remember that you will be doing oil changes in Mexico).


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I keep responding to your threads because I like you ocean however some on here see that as being biased and steering you one way or another(not you george)

but the md7a had some parts issues, and yes they are expensive to source some parts nowadays...some cant be except from other volvos but that applies even to yanmars...

however they ae very well built, heavy reliable and old school...

the betas are kubota blocks like many many diesels these days, and have some nice maintenance features like the built in oil pump to do oil changes, easy access of things in the front of the engine and are for all intents and purposes very global and parts available.

the atomic 4 while not ideal for a trip like this can be made to run forever, and those of us who have had them and used them know its pros and cons and how easy they are to work on.

a pro for example would be getting a mechanic to work on it in the boonies compared to a GOOD diesel mechanic

any car mechanic around the world will know the distributor, ignition and carb works based on old car experience.

cons is for cruising they can be GAS GUZZLERS...compared to a 1/4 galon an hour yanmar or similar.

they are gas of course and can be perceived as more of a hazzard but more hearsay than anything...

parts are easy to come by in automotive stores like napa for stuff like distributor caps, belts, ignitions even...

in any case the md7a has some known issues which can be:
overheating
bad comp and if watercooled only has a basic lifetime when the water passages eventually get eaten up

now here is a very nice blog talking about the md7a
Cruising and racing in the Baltic: To keep or trash my Volvo Penta MD7A?

and a sailnet one too!
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/diesel/84425-volvo-md7a.html

*remember fear and hearsay are more powerful than facts, especially on the internet*

so dont let anyone tell you differently jajajaja including me

again good luck in your search


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

northoceanbeach said:


> How high should I prioritize a new, or rebuilt engine? The boat I want has the original Volvo md7a.
> Another boat high on my lost has a brand new beta to replace the old atomic 4. Should I be placing this higher in my criteria?


Some swear by the MD7A, some swear at them... It's a raw water cooled engine in a salt water environment so sooner or later, the gigs up. If you can purchase a "sound" boat at a reasonable with a MD7A, don't pass on it but start to save your $$ for a repower. If there's a boat out there in your price range that you desire with a new Beta in it & it survey's out good, no brainer.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

I have got a Volvo MD17C.
It is a sound engine but the price of spare parts is truly shocking.
In 1997, the price of an exhaust manifold was £1300, then about $2000, for one component for what was then a 20 year old motor. That is "old" to Volvo, apparently. So much for longevity.
Volvo were not interested in the idea of that being expensive.
Volvo have other tricks in store for you too. They would not sell me piston oversizes, and I had to source them from Mahle separately. No, they insist on selling you a piston and liner kit (3 of them needed, £900 right there (about $1300).
And don't even think of asking them for a seal for your gearbox (£50, $75). In my local bearing shop, £3.50, about $5, for the same seal.
My next motor will be the 40 hp Kubota-based beta Marine motor. It will have Japanese quality and Japanese spare part prices.
Never again a Volvo.
Never.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

****. So of I had a boat with a new beta, I probably wouldn't have to worry about it and could motor to my hearts content, assuming I took good care of it. With an old Volvo it could actually die on me at anytime, leaving me stranded with no wind and with a strong current sweeping me into the harbor break wall? I really came to just rely on my Yamaha outboards starting and running every time without fail.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

are you a fast learner? learning a diesel isnt that complicated especially a simple old volvo

fwiw have your price some yanmar heat exhanchers or water pumps? not that far off from volvo prices

it really just depends what you are willing to budget for and make do...

if you dont want to deal with a diesel initially as you cruise down then yeah maybe look for repowered boats

oif you are compfortable and can do an overhaul before you set off on an old volvo, or yanmar or perkins or whatever you can do just fine

a rebuilt atomic 4 is smooth and a beauty to maintain...they are beyond simple!


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## ECS-IB30 (Oct 24, 2011)

To The OP - MD7A is not a bad thing!
When I first got my boat (an abandoned salvage job) it was filled with water, mosquitoes, mold, and dead mice. A friend and fellow restorer of other people's forgotten stuff hooked a battery to the engine to see if it would even turn over, his theory being if it turns over we can likely rebuild it.
After about 3 rpms it not only turned over, but it started - we were shocked. This boat had been sitting neglected for nearly 2 years, open to the weather and unprotected. We took the boat based on this fact alone. Visit my album to see some of the many pictures of the boat and engine - we did not overhaul the engine - we checked compression, changed the filters and belt, cleaned and painted it - then re-installed. Its given 2 years of great service so far with no signs of giving up anytime soon. 
I buy parts like belts, filters and such from the NAPA or anywhere else close and cheap - I use a Raycor now to further protect the engine, and am installing new gauges that work, to monitor performance when its running. Some little things is all it takes to keep these running. Namely, fuel, Oil and water - I check all three before each use. 
Don't let a VP MD7A steer you away from an otherwise great boat - DO get the opinion of a qualified surveyor if you are not confident with diesel engines. The internet is a great resource for parts and there are several places on both the left and right coasts that can ship parts over night if you need.

Make sure you have clean fuel and oil, a sealed system between the tank and the injectors (the high pressure side of the system) and let her run! PM me if you have specific questions I can answer for you.

Oh yeah - this was my first diesel engine for a boat - the rest were all gas or ethanol! You can't beat how efficient these engines are!


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## saillife (Jun 25, 2006)

If I had the choice I'd go with a Beta or Yanmar. Never had a volvo but I've heard the horror stories about part costs.

The real question on a diesel is hours. Seems 5000 hours is about the time people need to rebuild repower. Looking at used boats that's what I'd be thinking. You just don't know how well it's been cared for. If it's a new engine and you take good care of it you should get more like 10k hours. The most important thing on a diesel is *oil changes!* Don't skimp on those.

Brian


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## sandy stone (Jan 14, 2014)

Most of this is from Nigel Calder (you should read one or two of his books) - 

When you get to the boat to look it over, the engine should be cold i. e. not run that day, otherwise be suspicious.
Does it look well maintained? Fairly clean, recent filters & belts, belts properly adjusted?
Take off the oil filler cap and see what you can on the inside of the engine, maybe poke your finger in & wipe an inside surface. Clean or covered with sludge?
Replace oil filler cap, check oil for level. On diesels oil will almost always be black, no worries unless it's thick with sludge.
Big test - start the motor. Shouldn't have to crank long, but probably have to advance the throttle. Does it smoke? One puff of blue smoke on startup isn't bad on an old engine. Continuous smoke, not so good.
Anything leaking? Nearly impossible to get rid of diesel odor if fuel has been leaking for a while.
Good water flow from exhaust? Any funny noises? Alternator charging? Motor mounts fairly solid?
Take boat out & run it a while. Shaft seal/packing gland OK? Any clunks from drivetrain, cutless bearing? Overheating? Reverse OK?
Now run the boat speed up. Any smoke now? Blue = probably worn rings, Black = possible clogged exhaust elbow, fouled prop, prop overpitched, White = possible head gasket leak. Overheating?
If possible, carefully remove oil filler cap while under load(it may blow off when loosened & probably will spit some oil when removed). See if there is pressure puffing out indicating blowby & worn rings. 
If the motor runs decent when you test it, it probably will for years given proper maintenance. Only caveat - I would regard a 35 year old salt water cooled motor as a ticking time bomb. YMMV.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

My boat has a '79 MD7a. When we originally looked at the boat the engine started easily but was a bit smokey. There is no hour meter on the boat, and no service records to speak of but I took the chance on it anyway. So many of the boats we looked at had the Atomic4, and we were not interested in a gas engine on a boat! It is way too volatile for my liking. 

A couple of years after we got the boat it started to get harder and harder to start, until one day it just wouldn't. It seems we had lost compression in one cylinder. I pulled the engine and had a mechanic tear it down. It turned out that the rings were seized and cracked. We decided to do a full teardown and rebuild. I replaced all the bearings even though the mechanic thought they would still be ok because the way I see it, if your going to do it, you might as well do it right. The injector pump was a bit of a mess because the previous owner had run "bio diesel" in it....from the looks of the fuel tank he just grabbed old frier oil from McDonalds! The injector pump overhaul and calibration was a bit pricey but well worth it. All told I probably spent around $3000 on the rebuild. There were no parts that weren't readily available, and I didn't think they were too crazy expensive. 

I don't regret spending the money, and the engine has served us very well for the last 8 years. A couple of years ago the water cooled exhaust elbow rusted out; the part cost about $150 and was in stock. I had to replace the thermostat which cost $35 last year. Other than that it has had no problems whatsoever! Oil changes, filter changes and water pump impellers...just standard maintenance stuff. BTW you don't have to buy filters from volvo; Fram makes a filter that fits and I am sure others do too.

Don't be afraid of the MD7a, just get it checked out before you buy.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

diesels are like drunk gingers- they're a little freaky at first but they go forever.
NOB almost everyone of your questions has a fear-based component and usually that fear is instilled by another sailor you have talked to. you need to find a difffernet focus group.
I have had more bad luuck wiht outboards than diesel inboards.

having said that, I would rather have an old yanmar than an old westerbeke or volvo. that's probably just a familiarity issue, but parts availability is bettter, even on obsolete models. and, in my experience, half dead yanmars will run forever.
If and when you find the right boat, an engine survey is money well spent, but a diesel will tell you a lot about it's condition on start up. if it starts quickly, doesn't smoke and responds well to the throttle, chances are it is going to give yoiu a long tiime of relatively hassle free operation. for peace of mind, have an oil analysis done, and do a quuick tne up when you purchase it, chekc valve adjustment, head bolt torque, replace the impeller, pulll the exhaust elbow and give it a clean out, change the oil, etc.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> are you a fast learner? learning a diesel isnt that complicated especially a simple old volvo
> 
> fwiw have your price some yanmar heat exhanchers or water pumps? not that far off from volvo prices
> 
> ...


Christian,

The Lister-Petter exhaust manifold, similar geometry, similar size, was one fifth of the price of the Volvo equivalent.
One fifth.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Rockter said:


> Christian,
> 
> The Lister-Petter exhaust manifold, similar geometry, similar size, was one fifth of the price of the Volvo equivalent.
> One fifth.


Nice price! how many boats do you know that have active lister petters?

my price comparison was with another popular engine

people think yanmars are cheap cause they are plentiful but parts wise they are every bit as expensive as a volvo(not all parts) or a westerbeke or perkins clone, etc...

have you sourced parts for vetus? another excellente engine but the same applies, some parts are really expensive

nanni is another standard over in europe and some models have great reputations
in spain sole is another engine too...parts are decent

basically you can pick your poison

I will grant you that some parts from volvo are ridiculous, so you have to find either a used source and or parts from a scrapped engine

which in the case of engines like the md2b or md7a there are many scrappers to get parts from depending where you are.

I know in san fran bay old volvos are plentiful and you can find spares both new and used in various places

ps. exhaust manifold, exhchangers on many brands and models have always been overly expensive and non existant sometimes.

yanmar 2qms are just as hard to find as a palmer p60 gas exhaust manifold...these days


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Christian,

Do you think I am making this up, or something?
I was bitten, and I am trying to warn others.
You think the cost of Volvo spare parts is reasonable, do you?

Maybe you'd like to go to Volvo starter motors?
Or Volvo liners?
Or Volvo barrels?
Or Volvo gearbox spares?
Or pistons?
Or a gearbox seal (like 14 times what the same seal cost in a Scottish bearing company 20 miles from here... the same seal... £3.50 plays £49)

I don't mean pattern parts now, but Volvo spare parts.
Shall we go there?

With the exception of consumables, all Volvo parts are expensive. If you buy a Beta Marine diesel, the motor (Kubota) is common in fork-lifts and other engines, so the majority of the motor spare parts can be sourced elsewhere and there is no way that a fork-lift owner is going to pay the typical Volvo marine diesel mark-up on them. The same is true of the Mitsubishi-based Vetus motors. Go to Mitsubishi for them.

There are people that will be driven off the water by these astronomic Volvo spare parts prices.
I don't want you to be one of them, or anyone else for that matter.
The Volvo MD17C is a sound motor, but there is no way I can have any reasonable relationship with the manufacturer on this basis.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

My fear is ignorance based more than sourced from stories from other sailors. Or maybe actually a little bit of stories. I suppose complete ignorance would be bliss and complete knowledge would be empowering. I'm teetering on some middle ground.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

You are not on middle ground until you get over the fear of ignorance. Then you start to wonder how big is middle ground.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Rockter said:


> Every Lister-Petter I have ever owned has been air cooled, which could have a great deal to do with the expense of some parts. I certainly wouldn't want to own another, unless I lose my hearing. Not that they are bad engines, but they are NOISY!
> Beach;
> The major difference between diesel and gas, including outboards, is that other than for the starting and stopping, you don't need an electrical system for the engine to operate. No coil, points, condensers or plugs, etc. Many of the more modern diesels are electronically controlled, which is a definite negative, so there's a serious plus factor in purchasing a boat with an older, fresh water cooled diesel. A well maintained diesel can give over 10,000 hours of reliable service, whereas you would be lucky to get 1k from an outboard. A non-electronically controlled diesel will run (once started) even if all the batteries on the boat are completely dead.
> In reality, you are moving from a complex, fragile piece of lightweight metal and plastic bits (an outboard) to the simplest, easiest to operate and maintain bit of heavy metal you can get (an older diesel), certainly nothing to be afraid of. An older, less complicated, fresh water cooled diesel will serve you very well, if you maintain it with loving care.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Since the MD7A is raw water cooled a 1979 model is probably a time bomb. It could last one more year or ten more years, but you probably won't be able to reliably tell.

Inboards themselves are great. I'm not afraid of my 1986 Yanmar dying. It runs like a top, parts are widely available, and it is fresh water cooled. They have a different tone than an outboard which makes them a lot less annoying to listen to hour after hour, the prop stays in the water even in big waves, they get much better fuel economy (my Yanmar consumes around 1.5 liters per hour at cruising speed), and I much prefer working on diesel engines to gasoline ones.

I like outboards too, they are a lot cheaper and you don't have to buy expensive folding or feathering props to get good sailing performance. They just don't work that well on boats much over 25' long in big waves. However waves usually imply wind which means you can sail, so if I found the right boat and needed an engine on a budget I'd consider putting an outboard on a 30' boat.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Rockter said:


> Christian,
> 
> Do you think I am making this up, or something?
> I was bitten, and I am trying to warn others.
> ...


Well, you certainly have a hate on for Volvo! Perhaps it is your local supplier that is gouging you! I bought all the parts to rebuild my Volvo, and although they weren't all dirt cheap, I don't recall anything too outrageous. Of course supply and demand comes into play and if a part is rare the price goes up. In my experience with my md7a, I have yet to need a part that wasn't in stock locally, or a couple of days away...not bad for a 35 year old engine! Btw, if you can get a seal or bearing much cheaper through a bearing supplier then do it! At least they aren't proprietary parts that you must get OEM!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Rockter said:


> Christian,
> 
> Do you think I am making this up, or something?
> I was bitten, and I am trying to warn others.
> ...


no! I know and have experienced some extreme volvo prices...what in my post indicates that I think you are making this up?

im saying if you read well that there are some comparable prices in parts that even match volvos ridiculous prices on some

now if you see what other have posted with their experiences on the *md7a *youll see they are less extreme than your experience

its this way with most any old engine

have you priced a yanmar heat exhanger or elbow or big parts?

just sayin your bad experience doesnt mirror everyones experience

has nothing to do with you and not beleiviing you I know what you are talking about


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Whoa. The new boat topping my list has a Sabb model G. I just saw this video. I don't know why I can't just be normal and get a boat with a nice new engine. This guy is lighting something and cranking this thing.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

saabs are very old school tech and reliable...again parts can be an issue...in fact in my opinion the smaller saabs have one of the best records and following...almost cult like status fwiw
Old Marine Engine: Diesel Inboards

some even like peugot inboards!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

northoceanbeach said:


> Whoa. The new boat topping my list has a Sabb model G. I just saw this video. I don't know why I can't just be normal and get a boat with a nice new engine. This guy is lighting something and cranking this thing.


kerosene or starter fuel or cartridges...it helps initiate combustion....then it goes onto straight diesel

like I said VERY OLD SCHOOL TECH but if youre comfortable with it very reliable and solid...

again some hated them for the "complexity" of the starting ritual


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

christian.hess said:


> some even like peugot inboards!


Oh, no. Please no... 

My old girl had a Peugeot in it before the Volvo went in to replace it. It was only a few months before I bought the boat so fortunately I didn't have to deal with the process, but access was terrible, parts were difficult to get around here and apparently it used to just quit for no apparent reason. A Volvo (any Volvo) is a dream to compared one of those old pieces of junk.


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## wfish11 (Mar 27, 2012)

I have a Volvo MD7A in my Cal 29 (1974). It was a rebuild when they put it in (1980). Currently it is just a piece of ballast as the rings and valves are shot. There doesn't seem to be any source for these parts (not even Volvo). If it was an old Universal or Yanmar no problem. So I currently have a 9.9 Mercury hanging off the back, auto start, auto tilt. It works great, but many people say it will be a pain in a heavy sea as it will just pop in and out of the water. I just sail on Tampa Bay, but if I was going big time ocean sailing I'd want an inboard. Find yourself a boat with a recent rebuild or new, let someone else suffer the cost. Don't get fished into "it can be fixed cheap", there is no such thing.

Good Luck


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Classic30 said:


> Oh, no. Please no...
> 
> My old girl had a Peugeot in it before the Volvo went in to replace it. It was only a few months before I bought the boat so fortunately I didn't have to deal with the process, but access was terrible, parts were difficult to get around here and apparently it used to just quit for no apparent reason. A Volvo (any Volvo) is a dream to compared one of those old pieces of junk.


bingo...I was secretely trying to say that a volvo aint bad, a peugot well wtf...

that will have ZERO parts and or sources and whereabouts to fix...

old saab why not...

you can learn a lot from some youtube vids, a manual and some parts to fool around with

of course you have to like tinkering

if you dont well just sail


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

wfish11 said:


> I have a Volvo MD7A in my Cal 29 (1974). It was a rebuild when they put it in (1980). Currently it is just a piece of ballast as the rings and valves are shot. There doesn't seem to be any source for these parts (not even Volvo). If it was an old Universal or Yanmar no problem. So I currently have a 9.9 Mercury hanging off the back, auto start, auto tilt. It works great, but many people say it will be a pain in a heavy sea as it will just pop in and out of the water. I just sail on Tampa Bay, but if I was going big time ocean sailing I'd want an inboard. Find yourself a boat with a recent rebuild or new, let someone else suffer the cost. Don't get fished into "it can be fixed cheap", there is no such thing.
> 
> Good Luck


piston and rings are the easiest things to source, you take your old piston and rings go into a real parts shop(one that doesnt say what part number please?) and say get me this or the closest thing to it

important here is deck height, crown surface, i,e does it have valve pockets etc...

piston pin height when compared to crown height as in(compression ratio) and lastly skirt anatomy and ring position

in many cases newer pistons and ring designs will be much better compared to old, especially in the case of pressure ring and oil seal ring(the middle one with the spring in it)

many old pistons dont even use this ring and use the old style double ring, lower and bottom and thats it...

lastly you chose pistons on weight and alloy composition based on what the cylinder and or liner material is. and the old piston, pin weight etc

down here the land of no parts numbers getting pistons for even the most remote diesel is easy...provided you have the old one as a sample

this is true in many many countries and parts of the world

youd be surprised HOW MANY PARTS are common to so MANY engines...marine or not


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Sooooo....with some mechanical know how a Sabb can be made to last forever. It's just weird. I followed your link, it's true, some people say they are building a boat around that engine. So if I could get a boat that already had one running, it's not so bad. Not as good as a new repower but not the least reliable old engine. But it seems more people than not dislike the old Volvos. I hear mostly good about yanmar. More good than not about atomic four and most bad about Volvo.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Volvo spare parts anyone?

Roll up, roll up....

A set of gears for your gearbox anyone?

$5460 + taxes anyone (7093 Euros + tax), for the gears for your gearbox....

Volvo Penta Exploded view / schematic Reverse Gear MS2: 851610 - MarinePartsEurope.com

Reasonable, anyone?

Roll up, roll up, roll up!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

people LOVE yanmars because they owned the market for close to 3 decades...

however dont get fooled an improperly maintained yanmar isnt going to be any better than an improperly maintained volvo...in fact volvo has some tougher engine parts than equal yanmar

think flywheel and liners and such

hey man

pic whatever...learn, work on it...have fun...if you find you cant stand it or dont want to risk cruising with it well sell it

for example these days above yanmar I would place a beta or kubota derivative simply from an ease of maintenance, kiss concept and parts availability, yes even above yanmar

if you look there is a kubota part number chart some one posted on here that is VERY helpful

same for some yanmars

the most bad about volvo is so because its the time to bamouth volvo, just like they did atomic 4 for oh I dont know 3 decades after they stopped making them?

anywhoo


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

north-
Any 35-40 year old engine, boat, car, truck, airplane, doesn't matter. The condition will depend mainly on how it was maintained, not on how good the engine originally was. Ignoring the fact that there have been some engines with reputations for problems and others that are built better, because the problemchilds [sic] have probably died by now no matter how they were maintained.

There's a big problem in the boating business in that buyers always want to cheap out, and that means the vast majority of boats were (and are) raw water cooled, and in salt water that means the engine is doomed from the first day. Engine blocks and salt water shouldn't be mixed, and after 30-40 years, it doesn't matter how well the block was made, the alt will have rotted out large portions of the cooling passages.

Personally? I'd be much happier to see closed cooling ("fresh water") engine in an old boat, because I know someone paid for a better system up front, and that might mean it was also maintained better along the years. For raw water cooling, you really have to open something up (often a cooling elbow or water pump fitting) to look inside and see how much metal is left. Or just roll the dice and hope it lasts.

Closed water cooling also gives you greater thermal efficiency and better engine performance.

Of course, if you really are afraid of engines....do you call a rickshaw when you need a taxi?(VBG)


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

hello I agree with you in principle...

but how can you say a raw water engine is doomed from the first day and yet there are STILL atomic 4, yanmar 2qms and the sort STILL working after 20, 30, 40 and more years



they are not doomed...they require different maintenance and operating temps and last just as long if not longer from simply being more simple in design.

now get a turbo diesel add yet another level of complexity and price to maintain

for all those that say closed loop is better, while true(from a design and performance perspective) they now add another level of maintenance, more parts and guess what? these are also the most expensive parts on these engines

source a new heat exhanger for a 2gm or whatever and they aint cheap

did my 2gmf perform better than a 2qm before it, probably, its probably more efficient with fuel

was I always worried the heat exhanger might get eaten up YOU BETTCHA!

plus a closed loop system doesnt mean you arent sucking in seawater completely...just not through the block...

just sayin

its not black and white out there...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Christian-
"but how can you say a raw water engine is doomed from the first day and yet there are STILL "
That's easy, they are simply taking a long time to die. But die they will.

Many have been in brackish water, in bays and harbors, that's not really salty. Many have been hauled and left on land for a year or three, now and then. Many have not been operated for a month or two at a time, so less salt water has gone through them.

Many may still be in great condition for many reasons, but salt water and ferrous metals simply do not mix well in the long run.

At the same time you might as well compare A4's to diesel engines. Well, no, that isn't simple either. The old A4 "Stevedore" engine was imported into the US with or without a carburetor restrictor plate, which restricted the hp and got it under a tariff limit. Which engine is someone's A4 today? It was also an intentionally LOW compression engine, typical industrial design that will work forever. But a fuel guzzler because of low compression and a restrictor plate, if it was one of those.

And the diesel competition? Apples-to-apples, that generation of diesels were incredibly HEAVY, NOISY, SOOT making beasts. Not to mention, expensive. Today's diesels? Much lighter, but often turbo-diesels with electronic control systems, lord only knows how well they will age out. In the long run, fuel is the cheapest part of any engine, so the A4 still may win out if you want a "docking" engine, something that you won't be cruising long distances on.

But none of them get along well with salt water. All of them benefit equally by not having it run through them. Easiest way to bet on any one old engine? Bet on the one that has a "fresh" water cooling system. (Although, "fresh" should mean "raw", which of course it doesn't. There's nothing "fresh" about the coolant in a closed cooling system, is there?)


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

hello we agree more than you think...we do however see pros and cons in a different way

the same comments are made about the motorcycle industry, beleive it or not.

ask any real mechanic and ask them the pros and cons of say an old air cooled bmw or honda engine and compare that to the computer rich, lightweight motors of today and you will get pros for both and CONS for both

they simply arent just BETTER

that is not true

what are the benefits of and old leaky perkins? well they are strong as hell, overweight, strong as hell, etc...pros they last, are easy to rebuild and fixeable

cons they leak are heavy as hell and smoke or whatever

all engines die from day 1, so I guess in the new sense you say that is true but the same applies to any engine not just raw watercooled...they die at a slow rate.

some engines are notorioulsy rebuild friendly, others not for the price or parts availability etc...

we just see things differently but actually agree on the important parts...

btw why couldnt you cruise with an atomic 4? yes they are gas guzzler but not more than an outboard...yes they consume about twice what an equivalent yanmar consumes but guess what, the atomic 4 is easier to work for and get parts for...

I mean that...

there are common myths out there that have trumped common beliefs out there...

facts are that many many many engines are reliable and easy to maintain and rebuild...not that only yamnars are good.

are you aware of sole engines? from spain, vetus? killer engines...cheaper than the almighty yanmar...

deutz...

even the saab that started this

the new kubota tractor derivatives are what palmer was doing to international harvester engines back in the 50s...good old farm stuff...

(and guess what the blocks IRON were the same, all that changed was the head gasket(mostly) to stand salt water...however the steel gaskets last 6 years running in saltwater before you start flooding! 6 years! most circumnavigations today are less than that!)

the same...just today.

some people wont get past that and beleive that yanmar is a true marine only engine

all you have to do is look at what other countries sell for farm and agriculture equipment(example brazil) to see that your allmighty 2gm is nothing but a cement mixer with marine elbows and heat exhanger that are off the market for people to buy except from yanmar...or whatever other marine name you want to put on it.

just sayin

if you want the truth its out there...its takes a loooong time to find out but it will make you feell better that you have more options out there to chose from not just I have to have a yanmar or beta

of the 2 ill take beta in a heartbeat versus this new generation of yanmars, hence my advice to north ocean on his boat search threads.

just my observations however.

fwiw


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I agree with you, but when it comes down to making a quick simple choice? Can't be quick and simple if you have to do a lot of research to figure it out.(G)

I'm told the Perkins was the old classic black British taxi engine, designed and built for fleet use and as such, way more robust than, say, a Lucas product. (G) And personally, I'm allergic to anything that says "Westerbleak" (sic) simply because there's no telling what the original maker really is, but when you slather red paint all over a complete engine, including all the RUBBER hoses and belts that ALL the rubber companies say "Never paint"...I tend to think there's a deficiency in someone's engineering department. Even Ford (once known as *F*ound *O*n *R*oad *D*ead) knew better than to do that.

You could easily get lost in the subtleties, like why a Ford 289 engine usually burned the #2 cylinder valves, and the redesigned 302 version fixed that, or why GM 350 engines will be around forever, or which maker discontinues parts too soon....but I think north mainly just wants a KISS guide to how to avoid the klunkers.

Oh wait, the Pardeys already wrote the book on that, just go engineless.(VBG)

You never hear someone who has an outhouse complaining about the price of a plumber on a holiday weekend, do you?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I have one nitpick that we apparently share and I agree I HATE IT WHEN THE PAINT EVERYTHING

how damn hard is it to take a hose off, plug the holes and do a nice job????????????????????????????????????????????

drove me nuts on motorcycles as well

actually its just lazinness.

anywhoo

north you tired of us yet????????????? jajajaja


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Wait, you mean, _the hoses come off_?

As I said, a lack of engineering skills...


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## sailor29664 (Jul 4, 2012)

is the boat set up with a volvo involving a v-drive or direct drive? if V drive, I'd stay away


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## casey rappold (Aug 7, 2012)

Just stick with boats that use outboards. Your first instinct is correct. All my friends that have problems with there old boats, 90% of the time they are engine related. It's a sailboat, it always sails better than it motors. Motors are only for when there is zero wind. If there is any breeze at all you'll be sailing.When the outboard finally gives up the ghost, just unscrew it and let it quietly sink to the bottom & buy a new one.


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## Ernest Skublics (Nov 10, 2013)

I must add my vote for the Beta (=Marinized Kubota). I had one. It was superb in every respect. If I had the choice again, I'd have nothing but a Beta.


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## sailor29664 (Jul 4, 2012)

Personally, I have an almost 40 ur old Atomic 4 that is strong and happy, (yes, I'm knocking wood due to not only saying this but printing it...lol) but with proper maintenance and care most marine engines were built to last....


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## allen jenneman (Feb 28, 2015)

I have a 1985 Ericson with the original fresh water cooled Universal...fantastic engine...BUT you must change both water pump impellors at least once per year and changing the fresh water circulating pump impellor is a real pain. I suspect because it is a pain to change few people do it and the engine will really over heat without it. I suspect if the fresh water cooled Universal engine was changed out on any boat, that is probably the reason. I also added a second heat exchanger in series with the original heat exchanger because here in Tampa Bay the water gets up to 90 degrees in the summer and the single heat exchanger does not have enough area to keep the engine below 130 F. Other than these 2 items this engine at 30 years old is nothing short of fantastic, knock on wood. I would not have anything but a diesel in my sailboat.


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## artisthos (Dec 13, 2011)

Wow, I saw this and dealing with it now as I learn to survey a boat and engine.
In the meantime, there are a lot of pluses for an interior engine. It is in a better environment and can be worked on easily.
The new engines are smaller and refitting gives you a lot more room to work on it.
We are not going to be able to visit our number one boat till mid-June but if she is available I think we will buy her.
The owner sunk nine thousand in the 1976 transmission so it should last four years while we get the sails right. Then we will put in a new Kabota before we take her across to Saint Petersburg, Russia. Gee, for nine thousand he could have put a new engine in but then it would not be in our budget)


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## wing-it (Nov 16, 2014)

I like more emphasis on oil + filter change intervals / dates and brand of oil.
And service record reflecting fresh water flush at storage.
Oil change recommended interval hours are too high in every diesel I own and see. 
I Buy based on the operator, the brand next, then age.
Its a good feeling to buy from people who care about proper ops and show dates and times of service. I change 1/2 the hours of recommended time or sooner. Its cheap.
My Diesels and boats get changed every 100 hours depending on use.
Continuouse duty longer hours with special filters is another topic. 
I have been in business 36 years in Tool & Die work making racing props to Hello parts,
Mfg. problems and custom engine machining for a hobby.
Oil Annalasis are about $30 to determin which parts are in normal wear range
and a part that isn't wearing right.
Tailwinds to you


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## [email protected] (Apr 4, 2015)

I bought a 40 yr old morgan with the original Westerbeke 4-107 Idiesel some 5 yrs ago knowing full well that the engine would probably not last BUT it did and worked well until the fresh water circulating pump blew on me in a remote part of the Bahamas last year. I had no chocie but to motor on with a hot engine stopping now and then to let it cool. Got a replacement pump and motored on quite normally for another 5 months and then a rather serious loud knocking developed in the bottom part of the engine I then bought a 25 hp Yamaha outboard for $1500 and mounted it on the stern to get me back to the marina some 150 miles north on the ICW. The outboard performed admirably pushing the boat just as well as the 50 hp diesel Some suggested I scrap the diesel and just use this gasoline outboard. I did momentarily consider doing this but for a number of reasons I have decided to simply have the diesel rebuilt for $5200. And that does not include taking out the engine and reinstalling it when rebuilt. Your idea of using an outboard is still attractive. Scrapping the very heavy diesel would allow me to have a spare outboard and my total cost would be less than half. I guess I should reconsider????!!!


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Since it sounds like the engine is toast, pull it out .A little extra to mike the crank and decide then,rebuild or a new Kabota or Isuzu. The two issues may not have any connection as high milage perks have been known to turn a bearing shell and get hammered out of shape . Re/re a little engine like that is not rocket sci.and easily doable .Duct tape cardboard over everything and flail away.


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