# Serious attack on cruisers in Haiti - Injuries



## MarkofSeaLife

This happened yesterday....



> Hi Mark, We have been very cautious about information as the family had not been contacted. We now have contact with the family. They were sailing from Cuba to Il de Vache. They had an awful crossing, so stopped to have a break. They were anchored at 19.36N 72.59W
> 
> They were boarded by 6 men and vicious beaten. He just offered for them to take anything they wanted, however they tied him to the railing of the boat and viciously beat him. He has a seriously bad broken arm, crushed finger, machete cut to the face. She was also beaten, her clothes torn off, she has a machete cut to the hand. We managed to get a contact there, who has now taken them a phone and we are able to communicate with them - only just within the last 1/2 an hour. I will keep you informed. Please advise people not to go near that part of Haiti. Apparently Isle de Vache is OK (however we personally would do no where near the place!)
> 
> They had all their solar panels stolen along with computers, navigation etc etc - the boat looks like a blood bath. We have the Australian Embassy involved (who have the Canadian Embassy involved). Mark, he is 70 years old and she is in the 60's
> again, until the embassy gets there and the insurance company have been successfully contacted would rather not publicly give the boat name at this stage.
> The boat name is Pelikaan - Hans and Fein. Again, please don't release that yet.
> 
> Actually Mark, apparently it is OK to release the information.
> They are an Australian registered boat, however Hans & Fein are Dutch. They are from Sydney


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## jerryrlitton

So much for some of the responses here of just giving them what they want. I hate to hear stories like this. Get real guys, take off those rose lenses. You know what you have to do.


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## PitApe

jerryrlitton said:


> So much for some of the responses here of just giving them what they want. I hate to hear stories like this. Get real guys, take off those rose lenses. You know what you have to do.


Yup. Stay away from areas known to be dangerous.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Yes dont turn it into a gun htread. They are not Americans they cant have guns.


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## jerryrlitton

PitApe said:


> Yup. Stay away from areas known to be dangerous.


There is no safe place, as I said before. Just places less dangerous than others.


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## jerryrlitton

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yes dont turn it into a gun htread. They are not Americans they cant have guns.


I refuse to do that, however you are on the way. I am saying don't automatically bend to thier or anyone's demands and count on them just going away. Within your own limitations and circumstances have a plan B, even a plan C.


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## tdw

Good. Keep on refusing please and not just Jerry L, everybody.


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## PitApe

jerryrlitton said:


> There is no safe place, as I said before. Just places less dangerous than others.


We're taking Haiti. While there are never any guarantees in life, the probability of something like this incident happening differ fairly predictably, with Haiti being pretty far to the, "If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen there" end of the scale.

Face it, there are vast swaths of the globe (far more places than one person could ever hope to visit in their lifespan) where the likelihood of something like this happening are vanishingly small. It doesn't take too much effort, if any, to stick to those areas.


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## jerryrlitton

However having a certain something would have been fanfreakingtastic. 


Glasses, I mean rose colored glasses.


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## jerryrlitton

PitApe said:


> We're taking Haiti. While there are never any guarantees in life, the probability of something like this incident happening differ fairly predictably, with Haiti being pretty far to the, "If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen there" end of the scale.
> 
> Face it, there are vast swaths of the globe (far more places than one person could ever hope to visit in their lifespan) where the likelihood of something like this happening are vanishingly small. It doesn't take too much effort, if any, to stick to those areas.


"vanishingly small" is right, and getting smaller.

Goodnight you all, carry on.


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## PitApe

jerryrlitton said:


> "vanishingly small" is right, and getting smaller.


I think you misread my post. I said that the _*likelihood*_ of something like this (the topic of this thread) happening is vanishingly small in vast swaths of the globe, NOT the proportion of the globe. In fact, viewed over the long term (the past several decades) I would bet that the world has become safer.


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## JonEisberg

Awful news, one can only hope their injuries may not be quite as severe as they sound, and they can recover quickly...

Can't help but note one similarity, however, between this incident, and the recent attack on that Canadian couple in Honduras... In both cases, the boats sought refuge from rough seas or a tiring passage, by by deciding to head inshore, and anchor in areas well known to pose a serious security risk... Ile a Vache has been known to be one of the 'safer' spots in Haiti, but in the case of the boat with the Canadians aboard, anchoring in that part of the Honduran mainland was a remarkably dumb move, they were literally begging for trouble...

Both incidents could easily been averted by staying offshore, and simply heaving-to... On a boat that will heave-to with little fuss, a crew can rest and regroup just as easily, and far more safely, than venturing into an anchorage in an area well known to be sketchy...


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## smackdaddy

I'm going to carry a ferocious little dog...with huge, pointy teeth.


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## jerryrlitton

smackdaddy said:


> I'm going to carry a ferocious little dog...with huge, pointy teeth.


Darn hard to sneak a dog past customs, even a little one with pointy teeth. I imagine the penalties may be quite severe. Better off with the rose colored glasses.


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## chuck5499

Il de Vache use to be the only place in Haiti that was reasonsably safe. Cruisers we knew went in and I think worked with a childrens home there or something like that. You did not need to check in just stop. But it looks like it may be a bit dodgy now. We were going to stop there a couple of years ago but had a weather front coming and need to get past a cape on the west of the DR so did not stop. 
To bad for these folks. Hope the best for them.


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## MedSailor

Good point John about the unscheduled stop.


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze

As for attempting to determine the safety rating of places around the globe, I believe that being prepared in any location is the best defense. One of my nephew's was an operator in the Special Forces for the US Army and lived in Alexandria, Virginia. He had spent many years in Africa, Afghanistan, and Iraq but told me that he did not venture into certain parts of Washington DC due to the risk involved. That told me all I needed to know.


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## Minnewaska

In the days of the Wild West, they would have formed a posse, tracked these punks down to be brought to justice. Dead or Alive, which meant mostly dead. Good example for the other thugs.


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## jerryrlitton

Minnewaska said:


> In the days of the Wild West, they would have formed a posse, tracked these punks down to be brought to justice. Dead or Alive, which meant mostly dead. Good example for the other thugs.


In the days when men were men.


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## MarkofSeaLife

jerryrlitton said:


> In the days when men were men.


People like you are not men.

They are gutless whimps hiding behind a gutless wall like your gutless military helicopter icon.

Get an f'ing life by dropping your military bull*. This is a sailing forum.

Mark


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## jerryrlitton

MarkofSeaLife said:


> People like you are not men.
> 
> They are gutless whimps hiding behind a gutless wall like your gutless military helicopter icon.
> 
> Get an f'ing life by dropping your military bull*. This is a sailing forum.
> 
> Mark


Chill dude, this is not about you or your conscious


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## jerryrlitton

MarkofSeaLife said:


> People like you are not men.
> 
> They are gutless whimps hiding behind a gutless wall like your gutless military helicopter icon.
> 
> Get an f'ing life by dropping your military bull*. This is a sailing forum.
> 
> Mark


However Mark since you did express a little avatar envy, if you look real closely you will see this is a Royal Jordanian UH60M. I was working over there a few years back and had a wonderful experience. If you have any more questions please feel free to PM me or use my email. 
Also about the sailing forum bit, I am very proud to have served in the US Army for a tad over 20 years. I am in no way saying or emplying I have all the answers however if you feel the need to call me out I am offering to settle this as men.
Jerry
Ps. To show I have a sense of humor and little compassion I will ask you this; what avatar would you have me use? Don't tell me a picture of myself because like you I have a face for radio.


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## Donna_F

This thread is moving into dangerous gun-related territory neither intended by the OP nor appropriate outside of PRWG. Members should be free to post when an incident happens as an advisory, not as a starting flag for yet another gun debate.


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze

Mark: I think you have provided a fine example of stuff people will post on a forum but probably wouldn't say to a person's face if they were in front of them. If only things directly related to sailing can be posted then about half the posts should be wiped clean.


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## jerryrlitton

DRFerron said:


> This thread is moving into dangerous gun-related territory neither intended by the OP nor appropriate outside of PRWG. Members should be free to post when an incident happens as an advisory, not as a starting flag for yet another gun debate.


Nobody has said the dreaded three letter word but you did it twice. Nobody has discussed any tactics related to the three letter word. So far as far as I am concerned this thread has not met any historical criteria to be moved into darkness.


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## tdw

Enough already. Yes it is true that no one has/had mentioned that word but the implications are pretty damn clear. If this continues then the thread is going to be stripped back to the original post and we can all start again. There are 25 posts in this thread and in reality only a handfull have anything to do with the OP.


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## Don L

Threads here and on CF about the attack, both which quickly stopped being about the cruisers being attacked as the event became an opportunity for the same ole sabre rattling internet forum crap.

pretty sad


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## Bene505

Attacks like those just hurt the place where the thugs live. Good people will stop going there.

My condolences to the couple for how horrribly they were attacked. Glad they are still alive.

Regards,
Brad


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## 123456Wannasail654321

six guys even with the unmentionable is a tall order to handle. If the had element of surprise etc....probably not a solvable situation no matter what you do. 

I guess besides not going to these places, I guess a watch is in order so you can't be surprised. I figure a bright light that shows you are up would help unless they simply don't care. 

S/V delos has a talk about what they did after they were robbed in the phillipines


1. A night watch. The watchman is armed with a bright light to shine on boats that get too close 
2. They have weapons handy. mostly machetes that they have for other purposes, but the press them into service if needed. thankfully they have never had to. 
3. They noted that both times they were robbed it was on the third day. So now they move on or move the boat before the third day. 

It was a very interesting talk they gave. 


As for this, Its a shame. I hope they are not permanently maimed.

Haiti has had it rough for as long as I can remember.


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## PorFin

First off, very sad it happened and very glad it didn't turn out worse for the couple. I hope they are able to recover soon and well.

Second, in case anyone was wondering the location of the incident was in the vicinity of Anse-Rouge along the north shore of the Gulf of Gonave. It wasn't at Il de Vache.


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## RTB

Maybe a good link to bookmark, if you're planning to cruise the Caribbean -

https://www.safetyandsecuritynet.co...ion-detail-petit-port-a-piment-event-assault/

Nothing new about this incident that I can discover. Maybe MarkJ will get an update....

Ralph


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## Minnewaska

I think it's pretty flippant, even insulting to a fellow cruiser, to simple analyze this scenario and say, "they shouldn't have been there". As stated in the OP, they had an awful crossing and needed a break. It could certainly be more dire and a mechanical or weather related surprise forces one to a port they wouldn't have chosen. To get to some beautiful places, one often needs to pass some shady ones.

So what did they do wrong that we should learn from? Kept a watch? Then what?

I'm not willing to just accept that this happens so take it. I have no interest in raising the unmentionable and I've made it clear that I won't be cruising with the unmentionable. I am annoyed, however, that the bar has been raised from mentioning it to implying it. Nevertheless, what would you have done, assuming you were forced into stopping there?


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## krisscross

An awful crossing, combined with an even worse anchoring experience. Makes you re-think what may be worse: continuing in a rough weather despite being dead tired, or taking a chance by stopping in a bad neighborhood to rest.
I hope and pray they fully recover and do not give up their dream. I also wonder what would have happened if the lady was not elderly. Maybe rape and murder of both of them. These attackers were vicious for no reason, so murder would be a possibility.


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## Don L

Minnewaska said:


> Nevertheless, what would you have done, assuming you were forced into stopping there?


I think in the whole the best answer is that you have to able to secure yourself inside the boat. Someone entering the boat is at a big disadvantage. After that it becomes ways to draw attention to your boat with noise, lights, radioing for help.

I plan have metal companionway "boards", but wonder just how strong the sliding top hatch is.


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## 123456Wannasail654321

I understand that the gentleman cruiser in question was 70 years old. I sure he was pretty shagged out.

I already mentioned what another crew does, but they are ALL easily HALF his age. some more than half

I posted in another thread before I knew of the stupid "firearms thing" you guys have got going on here (which is really immature and stupid BTW are we not all adults) about what James Baldwin does. He fashioned folding metal bars that lock from within. He also relates a story about his run in with pirates as well.

All of this is nice, however given this gentleman's age and how worn out he must have been maybe there was no good solution for them. six guys element of surprise... probably nothing you can do but what he did. He was at their mercy and they didn't feel like being merciful. Its a bad thing all around.

Doesn't mean we can't bounce around ideas. and maybe learn from it. and no slap to him that we do it. No one say he sucks or is stupid etc...

If you become offended its on you (in general) Grow up.

If I were to cruise I bring a weapon. A firearm that will be my choice. like it not, its mine. I'll live with the consequences too.

Anyone else can do whatever they want and thats fine by me I don't care, and I don't judge. I am certainly not offended that someone would choose something else. I don't even care that other cruisers won't like me for it. Once again its their problem not mine.

This situation it about as bad as it gets I'm not sure there IS ANY GOOD solution.

Sometimes even when you do your best you lose and that is it. Does not happen often but there it is.

I feel bad for these two they are elderly their recovery is going to long and hard. Given their advanced age I doubt they will see the water again.

I wish them luck.


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## jerryrlitton

Assuming that it was one of us, assuming that we had the same ultimate destination which was beyond where they stopped. Now assume we are stopping there because we are forced to. (Mechanical, fatigue, weather etc) and there are just two of us on one boat, what would/should we differently? No nugs or other equalizing devices available. I don't want to come across as a woulda, shoulda, coulda answer because I was not there and it is so easy to critizise from the safety of my living room so forgive me, here goes....maybe anchor a bit farther out (if possible). Arrive in the dark so maybe you would not be noticed. Sleep on watches. If you have reason to believe you have been targeted leave ASAP. On the way out drag a few hundred meters of floating line to foul thier prop. Have automatic and or manual noise making devices with strobes. Something to attract attention before (preferred) the boarding. If boarding is inamate (now here is where I may piss off people however TFB) I will say it depends...this is a dice throw because you really don't know what you have. It depends on the bad guys intentions and how determined they are, and their resources etc. Personally I like options, the more the better. Remember no nugs. This is where you make a decision to fight or let them board. This all depends on many factors; your mindset, your condition, your resources, your physical ability, many things. I will again not say I woulda, shoulda, coulda. If I make the decision to fight carry the fight to them first. If you do decide to fight you have to go 110%. No taps. Fuel in a glass bottle with lit rag (with obvious hazards) spear gun, Hawaiian sling all done before they leave thier boat, if they get by the first line of deffence meet them at the life lines with a baseball bat, big freakin knife, oars etc. if further retreat is called for back towards the companionway however always have situational awareness. This is not easy. Fire extinguisher before they make thier way down..... 
Or just let them board and hope for the best. There is no right or wrong textbook answer. All I am saying is expect the best out of people however be aware of the worst NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE.


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## 123456Wannasail654321

jerryrlitton said:


> Assuming that it was one of us, assuming that we had the same ultimate destination which was beyond where they stopped. Now assume we are stopping there because we are forced to. (Mechanical, fatigue, weather etc) and there are just two of us on one boat, what would/should we differently? No nugs or other equalizing devices available. I don't want to come across as a woulda, shoulda, coulda answer because I was not there and it is so easy to critizise from the safety of my living room so forgive me, here goes....maybe anchor a bit farther out (if possible). Arrive in the dark so maybe you would not be noticed. Sleep on watches. If you have reason to believe you have been targeted leave ASAP. On the way out drag a few hundred meters of floating line to foul thier prop. Have automatic and or manual noise making devices with strobes. Something to attract attention before (preferred) the boarding. If boarding is inamate (now here is where I may piss off people however TFB) I will say it depends...this is a dice throw because you really don't know what you have. It depends on the bad guys intentions and how determined they are, and their resources etc. Personally I like options, the more the better. Remember no nugs. This is where you make a decision to fight or let them board. This all depends on many factors; your mindset, your condition, your resources, your physical ability, many things. I will again not say I woulda, shoulda, coulda. If I make the decision to fight carry the fight to them first. If you do decide to fight you have to go 110%. No taps. Fuel in a glass bottle with lit rag (with obvious hazards) spear gun, Hawaiian sling all done before they leave thier boat, if they get by the first line of deffence meet them at the life lines with a baseball bat, big freakin knife, oars etc. if further retreat is called for back towards the companionway however always have situational awareness. This is not easy. Fire extinguisher before they make thier way down.....
> Or just let them board and hope for the best. There is no right or wrong textbook answer. All I am saying is expect the best out of people however be aware of the worst NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE.


 from what I understand the area they were in was known to "safe" I also assume since they were safe they just ran up the Q falg and went to sleep.

Of course if you a forced into an area that is "known" to be scetchy you act accordingly.

Post a watch at night with a bright light to shine on boats that get too close. 99% of the time even the themselves don't want an altercation just that little bit is enough to make them go away.

If that does not work well you move up the continuum of force. which includes as it last step the use of deadly force to stop felonious behavior. that would be acting to stop the eminent threat of life (rape assault) of yourself or others. have whatever weapons of your choosing.

More important is the will to use them, if you don't have it don't bother. Make other plans. that is perfectly ok. Not my style, but to each his own.

Maybe put together a bag of stuff you are willing to part with? sort of like the mugger wallets that has a $10 in it and nothing else.

thankfully 99% of altercation NEVER come to this because although sometimes people will do unreasonable things (like steal or Rob) does not make the unreasonable mentally. They WILL go some where else. Which is what you want.

Of course NONE of this will help you with the local police, (except maybe not needing them) so it would be wise to have the US embassy (or whatever authority for you country for that area) number so you can contact them. At least they can check on you if you happen to be put in prison. and they can contact you family etc...

International waters its anything goes.

of course there is always the option to head for the horizon, but given why you are there.. not likely. However chances are good that the police will not be involved because if you were a thief are YOU going to contact the cops?

anyway what happens "after" is another can of worms.


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## Bene505

I've heard that wasp spray can have a deterring effect. Haven't tried it, not sure I want to.

I guess a nice loud siren and a rotating police light above the boom would be excellent to have.

Regards,
Brad


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## JonEisberg

Minnewaska said:


> So what did they do wrong that we should learn from? Kept a watch? Then what?
> 
> I'm not willing to just accept that this happens so take it. I have no interest in raising the unmentionable and I've made it clear that I won't be cruising with the unmentionable. I am annoyed, however, that the bar has been raised from mentioning it to implying it. Nevertheless, what would you have done, assuming you were forced into stopping there?


One thing I'm continually surprised by, is the number of cruisers out there who don't carry a serious - and I mean a _SERIOUS_ - searchlight... Amazing how many boats I deliver that don't have anything decent aboard, and I often have to make a stop at West Marine and pick up a 2 million CP rechargable or similar for the trip...

One of the dumber things, in hindsight, I've ever done was to anchor along a remote part of the coast of mainland Honduras about 6 years ago, late one night on the passage from Utila to the Rio Dulce... The weather had been very squally with a lot of intense thunderstorms, I was totally beat, and didn't think in that weather stopping for a few hours in the middle of the night would pose too much risk, given the severity of the weather... (This was a year or two before a Canadian cruiser was boarded and murdered in the same vicinity, and that area became better known as the extreme No-Go zone it has become today)

Of course, as soon as I get the hook down, the weather abated, and the night turned clearer, and more benign... I was able to better take in the surroundings, there was no light or sign of any humans ashore, but the spot immediately began to give me a VERY creepy feel...

I definitely should have left, gone out and hove-to offshore... But instead, I convinced myself I'd be OK if I maintained an anchor watch thru the night, instead...

So, staying on the singlehander's schedule, catnapping in the cockpit for 15-20 minutes, I performed a slow and deliberate scan of the shoreline on that schedule thru the night... I've gotta think that anyone observing me from shore that night, would have to be thinking "Hmmm, this guy seems to be serious, he's aware of his surroundings, is not likely to be taken by surprise, no telling what sort of other 'equipment' he might have aboard in addition to a high-powered searchlight, so... maybe I'll just let him be..."



In places where security poses an elevated risk, there are so many little things you can do to telegraph to an observer that there might be easier pickings elsewhere. Upon arriving anywhere, ALWAYS assume you are being watched by someone who might have designs on you, or your stuff... Doing things like making a show of scanning your surroundings with binoculars, sends a signal that you're paying attention, and maintaining a situational awareness... I think little things that might place any sort of doubt in an observer's mind, that you might be, for instance, ex-military who's simply in the habit of 'establishing a perimeter' as a matter of routine, well... I certainly don't see how those little, but deliberate, actions can hurt... I always lift my tender out of the water whenever it's not in use, for instance, just sends another little signal that at least I'm somewhat diligent, if nothing else...

And, in places where security might be a concern, that's one time I never mind being aboard the smallest, and most modest boat in the anchorage...


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## 123456Wannasail654321

JonEisberg said:


> One thing I'm continually surprised by, is the number of cruisers out there who don't carry a serious - and I mean a _SERIOUS_ - searchlight... Amazing how many boats I deliver that don't have anything decent aboard, and I often have to make a stop at West Marine and pick up a 2 million CP rechargable or similar for the trip...
> 
> One of the dumber things, in hindsight, I've ever done was to anchor along a remote part of the coast of mainland Honduras about 6 years ago, late one night on the passage from Utila to the Rio Dulce... The weather had been very squally with a lot of intense thunderstorms, I was totally beat, and didn't think in that weather stopping for a few hours in the middle of the night would pose too much risk, given the severity of the weather... (This was a year or two before a Canadian cruiser was boarded and murdered in the same vicinity, and that area became better known as the extreme No-Go zone it has become today)
> 
> Of course, as soon as I get the hook down, the weather abated, and the night turned clearer, and more benign... I was able to better take in the surroundings, there was no light or sign of any humans ashore, but the spot immediately began to give me a VERY creepy feel...
> 
> I definitely should have left, gone out and hove-to offshore... But instead, I convinced myself I'd be OK if I maintained an anchor watch thru the night, instead...
> 
> So, staying on the singlehander's schedule, catnapping in the cockpit for 15-20 minutes, I performed a slow and deliberate scan of the shoreline on that schedule thru the night... I've gotta think that anyone observing me from shore that night, would have to be thinking "Hmmm, this guy seems to be serious, he's aware of his surroundings, is not likely to be taken by surprise, no telling what sort of other 'equipment' he might have aboard in addition to a high-powered searchlight, so... maybe I'll just let him be..."
> 
> 
> 
> In places where security poses an elevated risk, there are so many little things you can do to telegraph to an observer that there might be easier pickings elsewhere. Upon arriving anywhere, ALWAYS assume you are being watched by someone who might have designs on you, or your stuff... Doing things like making a show of scanning your surroundings with binoculars, sends a signal that you're paying attention, and maintaining a situational awareness... I think little things that might place any sort of doubt in an observer's mind, that you might be, for instance, ex-military who's simply in the habit of 'establishing a perimeter' as a matter of routine, well... I certainly don't see how those little, but deliberate, actions can hurt... I always lift my tender out of the water whenever it's not in use, for instance, just sends another little signal that at least I'm somewhat diligent, if nothing else...
> 
> And, in places where security might be a concern, that's one time I never mind being aboard the smallest, and most modest boat in the anchorage...


Sometime the best "weapon" is the doubt you place in the other guys head!


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## denverd0n

Bene505 said:


> I've heard that wasp spray can have a deterring effect.


Urban legend. It does not work. The toxicity may cause your assailant health problems a few years down the road if they don't wash it off quickly, but it is not going to stop them right here and now.

How do I know? Because I once got shot in the face with the stuff accidentally. It was very unpleasant. But if I were attacking you it most certainly would not have stopped me, nor even slowed me down very much.


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## Bene505

denverd0n said:


> Urban legend. It does not work. The toxicity may cause your assailant health problems a few years down the road if they don't wash it off quickly, but it is not going to stop them right here and now.
> 
> How do I know? Because I once got shot in the face with the stuff accidentally. It was very unpleasant. But if I were attacking you it most certainly would not have stopped me, nor even slowed me down very much.


Good to know. Thank you.

Regards,
Brad


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## svHyLyte

Bene505 said:


> Good to know. Thank you.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


One might do better with a couple of these handy:










For more information see Mace Strobe Light Pepper Spray Gun | DICK'S Sporting Goods

Perfectly frankly, however, we avoid places where these might be needed although we are "armed" in the unlikely event. And they do work....


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## PorFin

denverd0n said:


> Urban legend. It does not work...


But bear spray does. Good range, and waaay more product than you find in your normal "anti-human" can of pepper spray.


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## 123456Wannasail654321

PorFin said:


> But bear spray does. Good range, and waaay more product than you find in your normal "anti-human" can of pepper spray.


True the only problem I see is Wind drift.


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## 123456Wannasail654321

svHyLyte said:


> One might do better with a couple of these handy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For more information see Mace Strobe Light Pepper Spray Gun | DICK'S Sporting Goods
> 
> Perfectly frankly, however, we avoid places where these might be needed although we are "armed" in the unlikely event. And they do work....


 this looks pretty cool, but I wonder if its too gun like for foreign countries.

As an aside so sailboats get searched often or at all?


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## TakeFive

123456Wannasail654321 said:


> ...As an aside so sailboats get searched often or at all?


I lack the experience to give you a knowledgeable answer.

I possess the common sense to suggest that when visiting a foreign country or passing through their waters, you obey their laws whether or not they have a reputation for conducting searches...whether you agree with those laws or not.


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## 123456Wannasail654321

TakeFive said:


> I lack the experience to give you a knowledgeable answer.
> 
> I possess the common sense to suggest that when visiting a foreign country or passing through their waters, you obey their laws whether or not they have a reputation for conducting searches...whether you agree with those laws or not.


Thanks for your reply.

I of course never mentioned or alluded to not following any laws so I don't understand your post. I have seen many here post in the past that stated an item like above would be a problem if they get searched. Because it appears to be very gun-like despite that its NOT a firearm.

Thus my question. How much of a worry would it be?

Thanks for playing. I've no prizes at this time.


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## tdw

It is my understanding that the Mace gizmo would be illegal in Australia. I cannot say whether it would be kosher in other countries. In Oz, it is not so much a matter of being searched for weapons but for drugs. That such a search turns up the odd weapon would be simply a bonus for Customs and Excise. 

Now ... 123, you are pushing the limits. I am not going to debate this though I assure you that it takes me less time to delete a post than it does for me to type a warning. Even less to send someone on a long term holiday. That my attitude to guns is considered unreasonable by some others matters not a jot nor a tittle to me. There are plenty of "security" threads for you to post in. We simply do not need another.


----------



## aeventyr60

*" As an aside so sailboats get searched often or at all?"*

Rarely if ever, unless one sails into Australia. Think they were more concerned with prohibited agricultural items. They had a stink about my cold pills but either missed or had no concern for the morphine injection kits in the first aid kit.

Even the larger flare guns are getting noticed down under. Hard to get replacement shells to stay in code with local regulations. So a few new handhelds flares and a "V"sheet" kept us legal for the next five boardings by over zealous LEO's.


----------



## svHyLyte

PorFin said:


> But bear spray does. Good range, and waaay more product than you find in your normal "anti-human" can of pepper spray.


Unfortunately, that is not so. "Pepper spray" is much more "lethal" than Bear Spray as the concentration of Capsacian ("pepper") is much greater (in some cases by a factor of 10x) than is permitted for Bear Spray, thanks to the environmentalists. Google "Bear Spray" and you will find more than a few discussions of the matter. Hitting an intruder in the face with intense light and a good dose of gooey Pepper Spray foam will put them down/off the boat. Frankly, I'd just a soon/prefer use a 10 gauge pump loaded with course Salt shot but these daze that is too politically incorrect. It did, however, prove its merits in the '50's and '60's and even Eric and Susan Hiscock carried and recommended others carry a 10 gauge smooth bore with salt and buck shot for fending off "aggressive sea-life".

FWIW...


----------



## tdw

aeventyr60 said:


> *" As an aside so sailboats get searched often or at all?"*
> 
> Rarely if ever, unless one sails into Australia. Think they were more concerned with prohibited agricultural items. They had a stink about my cold pills but either missed or had no concern for the morphine injection kits in the first aid kit.
> 
> Even the larger flare guns are getting noticed down under. Hard to get replacement shells to stay in code with local regulations. So a few new handhelds flares and a "V"sheet" kept us legal for the next five boardings by over zealous LEO's.


Tis true that we do a good line in overzealous LEOs. Pain in the arse most of them. I've been in trouble for supposedly importing illegal pharmaceuticals despite the fact that they were prescribed and supplied legally in Australia. Nontheless this tosser at the airport in Sydney said it was illegal for me to bring them back into the country. Fwit.


----------



## aeventyr60

We were relieved of our "Made in Australia" tins of anything containing meat too. Strange.


----------



## tdw

aeventyr60 said:


> We were relieved of our "Made in Australia" tins of anything containing meat too. Strange.


Hey ... is that Spam ?


----------



## JonEisberg

123456Wannasail654321 said:


> As an aside so sailboats get searched often or at all?


Impossible question to answer... As always, _It depends..._ 

You may want to follow a thread over on Cruiser's Forum, started by an American would-be circumnavigator who is amazingly candid about the fact they are cruising armed... He is promising to detail their experience clearing into each and every country they visit, and declaring their arsenal that includes a handgun, shotgun, and an AR-15...

Frankly, I'm not expecting these 'reports' to continue for very long, but who knows?



But I suspect he's in for a bit of an 'education' as they proceed, for they've only cleared into the friendly confines of the Bahamas, so far...

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f131/2015-bahamas-gun-check-in-update-143216.html


----------



## 123456Wannasail654321

JonEisberg said:


> Impossible question to answer... As always, _It depends..._
> 
> You may want to follow a thread over on Cruiser's Forum, started by an American would-be circumnavigator who is amazingly candid about the fact they are cruising armed... He is promising to detail their experience clearing into each and every country they visit, and declaring their arsenal that includes a handgun, shotgun, and an AR-15...
> 
> Frankly, I'm not expecting these 'reports' to continue for very long, but who knows?
> 
> 
> 
> But I suspect he's in for a bit of an 'education' as they proceed, for they've only cleared into the friendly confines of the Bahamas, so far...
> 
> 2015 Bahamas gun check-in update - Cruisers & Sailing Forums


Thanks for this I am sure it will be interesting.

I'd expect he'll get jammed up somewhere. esp with the AR and pistol.

however that's a discussion for another place.

Hopefully we will get some updates on the progress of these two sailors (whose names escapes me at this time). I understand that some other cruisers or the local have taken their boat for safe keeping while they recover.


----------



## jerryrlitton

1234, as crazy as it may sound if you use nug it would not violate the censureship rules here. Don't even think of the seven letter word. However back to the thread, nobody has mentioned it here yet the best defense would be your head. Try not to get into any predicament that requires the use of your (Anyone's) superior knowledge and skill. After that all we can really do is roll the dice eh?


----------



## 123456Wannasail654321

jerryrlitton said:


> 1234, as crazy as it may sound if you use nug it would not violate the censureship rules here. Don't even think of the seven letter word. However back to the thread, nobody has mentioned it here yet the best defense would be your head. Try not to get into any predicament that requires the use of your (Anyone's) superior knowledge and skill. After that all we can really do is roll the dice eh?


Thanks for the advice, but really, why on earth with a forum dealing with adults would we have do such a silly thing? I mean come on really?

I'm pretty sure there are no children here. In fact I'll bet there is no one under 30! Its simply ridiculous, and juvenile.

So as for myself when the word firearm is needed I'll use it. its just easier to type the correct word rather than to have to think of another. I'm not writing poetry here! lol.

I Note that I've seen in the past on this forum and others (not this thread though) who are anti-nug  seem to be a lot like rabid atheists. When they see the mention of religion they just CANNOT HELP THEMSELVES they just HAVE to interject their view and vomit all over everything. The CF thread is just full of that stupidity. Its cringe-worthy. Gun people do it too.

Some people (again not in this thread) just can't stand the thought of affirmative defense. Funny thing is atheists always say they are tolerant! its just a toll that give options that all, nothing more and having options are good. As long as the choice has been made logically and everyone understands and is prepared mentally then go of or it, those that that don't do that important homework...well... good luck. No one is your mommy. plenty of other perfectly viable options anyway. sigh.....

Anyway, the cruiser forum thread will be interesting. I think the guy is a bit overarmed for my taste, but to each his own. It seems to be that his selection is almost designed for a story.

I understand that traveling with firearms and still have them available for defense is pretty much impossible in the majority of the world. I expect he'll be mailing them back to the states. To an FFL of his choice.

I think we should look for a story in the sailing mags about his experiences.

As an aside I've no understanding why governments don't trust their citizens, but I'm certain that a discussion like that would NOT go well. To each his own I don't really care, just curious more than anything.

Anyway.... back to looking after my boat! (until I save the cash for my Vega)

Thanks for listening.


----------



## jerryrlitton

My friend, very sadly you have answered your own question.


----------



## MedSailor

If I had to pull into a port in Haiti or somewhere else sketchy, my plan would be to pull out my GIANT (think car dealership) american flag and confederate flag and hoist them both with my little "Q" flag. I would then slap the NRA stickers I keep aboard on the sides of the hull, string my inflatable elk up in the rigging, mount my 8 foot longhorns on the bowsprit and blast country music all night.

Sure, I'd receive hell from customs in the morning, but is there a bad guy in the world that would board my boat when set up like this? 

MedSailor


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## 123456Wannasail654321

:laugher:laugher


----------



## jerryrlitton

MedSailor said:


> If I had to pull into a port in Haiti or somewhere else sketchy, my plan would be to pull out my GIANT (think car dealership) american flag and confederate flag and hoist them both with my little "Q" flag. I would then slap the NRA stickers I keep aboard on the sides of the hull, string my inflatable elk up in the rigging, mount my 8 foot longhorns on the bowsprit and blast country music all night.
> 
> Sure, I'd receive hell from customs in the morning, but is there a bad guy in the world that would board my boat when set up like this?
> 
> MedSailor


That's a new approach. May work.


----------



## killarney_sailor

First off I am sorry to hear that this happened and I hope the couple recover quickly. 

To get back to the topic, I think that Cuba (I assume eastern) to the north shore of Haiti suggests that they were on their way to somewhere in northern DR like Luperon. This is a windward route and you really need to pick when you go. Don't know when this happened but a week or so ago the winds were relatively light from the east. Still you need to be able to motor when needed and make good progress to windward when needed (or when the fuel is low). 

To avoid this problem you could pick a better destination further south in the islands. Would be much easier sailing but further. Nothing in the DR is that attractive to me.

Final comment about this gentleman being 70. I am approaching that age (scary thought!) and feel that I am pretty resilient.


----------



## Don L

Everytime I read one these threads I experience a similar thought process. It starts out as sadness for the cruisers involved who were injured and then becomes fear, ..............of other cruisers as I read the crazy crap that gets posted on the thread.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Breeze

I would suggest reading "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu so you can understand both defensive and offensive strategies to remaining alive. Those of you who believe that the world can share a Coke and live in peace may learn some ultimate truths.


----------



## tdw

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> I would suggest reading "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu so you can understand both defensive and offensive strategies to remaining alive. Those of you who believe that the world can share a Coke and live in peace may learn some ultimate truths.


Coke lied ? Are all my innocent preconceptions to be destroyed ?


----------



## jerryrlitton

Yep


----------



## JonEisberg

Don0190 said:


> Everytime I read one these threads I experience a similar thought process. It starts out as sadness for the cruisers involved who were injured and then becomes fear, ..............of other cruisers as I read the crazy crap that gets posted on the thread.


I wouldn't worry too much about that... I've heard plenty of sailing forum bluster on this topic over the years, but in my observation, a fair amount of that comes from folks who aren't going anywhere... Or, at least, not beyond Chicken Harbor on Great Exuma... 

Can't really recall running into many 'cowboys' out there, myself... No doubt there are a fair percentage that might be carrying a 'Big Stick', but they still tend to Walk Softly, in my experience... Others' mileage may vary, of course...



Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> I would suggest reading "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu so you can understand both defensive and offensive strategies to remaining alive. Those of you who believe that the world can share a Coke and live in peace may learn some ultimate truths.


So, I wonder how many more circumnavigations people here like killarney, or Mark J, will have to complete, before coming to more fully appreciate some of these "Ultimate Truths"...


----------



## aeventyr60

A Coke and and a smile are still more prevalent then what all the doomsayers are talking about...especially in the "Land of Smiles"! Hell for not that much more you can have a massage with a happy ending.


----------



## Wandersome

I live in North Haiti and have been following this thread. 1. There are very few Haitians who even know what a ******* is... Many are likely to visit to see what the crazy cruiser is doing.... 2. if I read correctly, they were headed to isle de Vaca in the south and were on the north shore of the gulf. Not the North shore of Haiti. There are a few "safe" harbors on the north coast of Haiti. Labadee comes to mind. It is frequented by cruise ships and last time I was visited, there were two cruisers in the bay. My boat is in Luperon... I will be bringing her here soon. Cheers!


----------



## paulanthony

jerryrlitton said:


> So much for some of the responses here of just giving them what they want. I hate to hear stories like this. Get real guys, take off those rose lenses. You know what you have to do.


What?


----------



## 123456Wannasail654321

tdw said:


> Coke lied ? Are all my innocent preconceptions to be destroyed ?


No. Just most of them...

Sorry


----------



## tdw

Note that yesterday was a week ago.



MarkofSeaLife said:


> This happened yesterday....
> 
> Hi Mark, We have been very cautious about information as the family had not been contacted. We now have contact with the family. They were sailing from Cuba to Il de Vache. They had an awful crossing, so stopped to have a break. They were anchored at 19.36N 72.59W
> 
> They were boarded by 6 men and vicious beaten. He just offered for them to take anything they wanted, however they tied him to the railing of the boat and viciously beat him. He has a seriously bad broken arm, crushed finger, machete cut to the face. She was also beaten, her clothes torn off, she has a machete cut to the hand. We managed to get a contact there, who has now taken them a phone and we are able to communicate with them - only just within the last 1/2 an hour. I will keep you informed. Please advise people not to go near that part of Haiti. Apparently Isle de Vache is OK (however we personally would do no where near the place!)
> 
> They had all their solar panels stolen along with computers, navigation etc etc - the boat looks like a blood bath. We have the Australian Embassy involved (who have the Canadian Embassy involved). Mark, he is 70 years old and she is in the 60's
> again, until the embassy gets there and the insurance company have been successfully contacted would rather not publicly give the boat name at this stage.
> The boat name is Pelikaan - Hans and Fein. Again, please don't release that yet.
> 
> Actually Mark, apparently it is OK to release the information.
> They are an Australian registered boat, however Hans & Fein are Dutch. They are from Sydney.


I've not seen anything about this in the Australian media. Has there been any further news ?


----------



## BLACKSAILS

Luperon is Ok, had safety problems a couple years ago with petty thefts but the area is way better now. New marina, a crane, etc.


----------



## Alex3745

Isn't traveling with a hunting related equipment permitted? I've often seen long guns (shotguns or rifles) passing customs at airports in many countries. Some countries I assume for purposes of big game. I know for an American to enter Canada they forsure cannot bring a self defence related equipment including minor things like pepper spray and brass knuckles . Negligence of this will 100% result in jail time for any infraction including the pepperspray/knuckles.


----------



## guitarguy56

MedSailor said:


> If I had to pull into a port in Haiti or somewhere else sketchy, my plan would be to pull out my GIANT (think car dealership) american flag and confederate flag and hoist them both with my little "Q" flag. I would then slap the NRA stickers I keep aboard on the sides of the hull, string my inflatable elk up in the rigging, mount my 8 foot longhorns on the bowsprit and blast country music all night.
> 
> Sure, I'd receive hell from customs in the morning, but is there a bad guy in the world that would board my boat when set up like this?
> 
> MedSailor


Med.... I don't think posting NRA stickers or the Confederate flag is going to deter pirates and ignorant criminals in those parts of the world as they wouldn't have a clue what they were... those are American icons and people outside the U.S. wouldn't know.

The victims were in their senior years and most are not ready or able to defend themselves against 6 grown men wielding machetes and other weapons... there really isn't anything other than not being in the area in the first place.

Understanding the dangers of being in other countries is all one can do... In my business we are trained and warned when travelling abroad especially in countries that hate Americans.


----------



## rgscpat

Hans Rijsdyk told their story on Noonsite on April 21.

They had a security grate on Pelikaan. Hans came out into the cockpit.


----------



## Brent Swain

jerryrlitton said:


> In the days when men were men.


Reminds me of a description of Lasquetti Island I once heard.

"Where men are men , women are scarce, and sheep are nervous."


----------



## rgscpat

Outcome, from the victim, Hans Rijsdijk, in the report on Noonsite: 
"I was diagnosed with a broken arm and a crushed finger apart from multiple bruises and machete cuts, later increased in a Sydney hospital to 2 broken arms and 2 broken fingers. My wife suffered serious bruising and in Sydney doctors removed a 5 cm splinter from her hand."


----------



## Brent Swain

I prefer my boat's ability to lock from the inside, with aluminium hatches and a wheelhouse, which would make anyone on deck a sitting duck for my slingshot, or my spear gun. It would take a long time in this vulnerable position,with some serious power tools, to get inside.


----------



## capta

To the best of my knowledge, Haiti is still the most impoverished country in the western hemisphere. Earthquakes, hurricanes, plagues and virtually no infrastructure to aid the people, breeds desperation and anger. Not that I'm excusing them, but these people haven't enough food to feed themselves and their children and many still don't even have a roof over their heads since the earthquake of 2010, so it's easy to see how a yacht anchored in the bay might seem like a gift from God to them. 
If we sailors choose to anchor illegally, in an anchorage alone, in THE poorest country in the hemisphere, then we must bear a good part of the responsibility for whatever happens.
Haiti should NOT be on any cruiser's itinerary, period.


----------



## Wandersome

Hmmm OK ... I live here in North Haiti. There are some decent spots. The earthquake did no damage here and they Rarely have Hurricanes. The economy ... at least here in the north is getting better. I'll know more when I get the boat here. Best regards, 

Wander


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## rgscpat

Illegally?


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## Wandersome

Not sure what you mean. The folks work hard and have low pay but it is safer here and the people are better trained than many places I've worked and it is getting better.


----------



## billyruffn

denverd0n said:


> Urban legend. It does not work. The toxicity may cause your assailant health problems a few years down the road if they don't wash it off quickly, but it is not going to stop them right here and now.
> 
> How do I know? Because I once got shot in the face with the stuff accidentally. It was very unpleasant. But if I were attacking you it most certainly would not have stopped me, nor even slowed me down very much.


Must depend on what you got hit with. My story: My daughter used to work for "the government" in Langley, VA. Her agency had a "family day" at work on Saturday. Various groups in this agency had displays set up, much like a commercial trade show, with people manning each booth. I sauntered up to the booth manned by guys in black tactical gear with all sorts of interesting "equipment" on the wall behind then and we had the following conversation:

Me: I'm a small boat ocean sailor. What do you recommend to defend a small sail boat at sea or anchor against a pirate attack?

Dude in Black: A 12 guage shotgun is preferred in close quarters like a sail boat. Works well up close and you don't have to be very accurate.

Me: My wife won't let me have firearms aboard the boat and it's her boat. It's also a hassle with local authorities. How about non-lethal force?

Dude in Black: In that case I'd recommend a Taser and a fighting baton (like the one over here). The Taser will take most guys down pretty quickly. The baton, when applied to the joints with force, will incapacitate most people pretty quickly.

Also, as a stand off device I'd recommend *wasp spray*...shoots in a stream for 15 or more feet. Applied liberally the face and eyes it will definitely slow your attacker so that you can use the baton or other large blunt object. Wasp spray has a nerve agent in it that can be effective against humans.

I have no way of knowing it he's right as I have never tried it. I did buy the Taser and baton. Carried the Taser for over 10 years before surrendering it to Irish customs in 2013. I still have the baton.

I had a similar conversation several months later with a member of the Navy Seal Development Group (aka "Seal Team Six"). I asked a similar opening question. He, too, recommended a 12 gauge shotgun. (Do you see a consensus developing here?). I told him the boat's owner, who had just cooked his dinner, said we couldn't use "lethal force" and so could he recommend some "non-lethal" defenses.

His reply was, "Well, Scott, I haven't been trained in the application of non-lethal force." :smile

I later pulled the following recommendations from this young warrior:

1. Buy a six pack of Grolsch (German beer). Drink it. Save the bottles. They have a nice, pint size bottle with a re-useable snap top. Fill the bottles with gasoline and keep a rag taped to the outside of the bottle. When the time comes to use it, douse the rag with gas, secure it to the bottle with the snap top, light it up and use it like a hand grenade.

2. Go on the internet, find a site that sells replicas of assault rifles. 
(for example: HK 416 Replica Assault Rifle | eBay

"You won't have to declare it to customs, because it's not a firearm. It just looks like one. If you pull one of these out for use against pirates who are not as well armed you will appear to be, you will either scare them off, or start a gun fight, in which case you will probably lose. But, it's an option," he said. 

Thankfully, I've never had to use the advice given by these two experts. I have given the problem a lot of thought. It's what they call a "wicked problem", (See Google: wicked problem) and it's that kind of problem that leads to debates like you'll find on this thread.

May you be at peace with fair winds. Following seas are over rated.


----------



## hellosailor

"find a site that sells replicas of assault rifles. "
Sounds like he wasn't trained in several things besides non-lethal force.(G)

Perhaps you haven't heard any of the US national Nooze reports of people, usually dumb kids, who have been recently SHOT AND KILLED BY COPS responding to "man with a gun" who could not tell if it was a toy, and simply SHOT THE HOLDER?

If someone points a gun at me, unprovoked, I've been taught "Shoot first" and if my aim is bad, we can discuss why you did something stupid and hostile like pointing a gun at me. Real or fake, and it is plain suicidal to sit and debate what it is, if it LOOKS like a real gun.

In some places, the replica is illegal anyway. Especially if there's no orange tip on it. (Which doesn't prevent anyone from putting an orange "toy" tip on a real gun either.)

If you need a weapon, or think you'll need a weapon, and you can't or won't be able to safely carry a sufficient weapon...you need to turn around and visit a better place.


----------



## smurphny

I can't think of many dumber things than appearing with a fake AK-47 in front of other people with real guns There must be a Darwin award for that. You need the real thing or nothing. Best advice here: Just stay the heck away from places with bad reputations.


----------



## Group9

billyruffn said:


> Must depend on what you got hit with. My story: My daughter used to work for "the government" in Langley, VA. Her agency had a "family day" at work on Saturday. Various groups in this agency had displays set up, much like a commercial trade show, with people manning each booth. I sauntered up to the booth manned by guys in black tactical gear with all sorts of interesting "equipment" on the wall behind then and we had the following conversation:
> 
> Me: I'm a small boat ocean sailor. What do you recommend to defend a small sail boat at sea or anchor against a pirate attack?
> 
> Dude in Black: A 12 guage shotgun is preferred in close quarters like a sail boat. Works well up close and you don't have to be very accurate.
> 
> Me: My wife won't let me have firearms aboard the boat and it's her boat. It's also a hassle with local authorities. How about non-lethal force?
> 
> Dude in Black: In that case I'd recommend a Taser and a fighting baton (like the one over here). The Taser will take most guys down pretty quickly. The baton, when applied to the joints with force, will incapacitate most people pretty quickly.
> 
> Also, as a stand off device I'd recommend *wasp spray*...shoots in a stream for 15 or more feet. Applied liberally the face and eyes it will definitely slow your attacker so that you can use the baton or other large blunt object. Wasp spray has a nerve agent in it that can be effective against humans.
> 
> I have no way of knowing it he's right as I have never tried it. I did buy the Taser and baton. Carried the Taser for over 10 years before surrendering it to Irish customs in 2013. I still have the baton.
> 
> I had a similar conversation several months later with a member of the Navy Seal Development Group (aka "Seal Team Six"). I asked a similar opening question. He, too, recommended a 12 gauge shotgun. (Do you see a consensus developing here?). I told him the boat's owner, who had just cooked his dinner, said we couldn't use "lethal force" and so could he recommend some "non-lethal" defenses.
> 
> His reply was, "Well, Scott, I haven't been trained in the application of non-lethal force." :smile
> 
> I later pulled the following recommendations from this young warrior:
> 
> 1. Buy a six pack of Grolsch (German beer). Drink it. Save the bottles. They have a nice, pint size bottle with a re-useable snap top. Fill the bottles with gasoline and keep a rag taped to the outside of the bottle. When the time comes to use it, douse the rag with gas, secure it to the bottle with the snap top, light it up and use it like a hand grenade.
> 
> 2. Go on the internet, find a site that sells replicas of assault rifles.
> (for example: HK 416 Replica Assault Rifle | eBay
> 
> "You won't have to declare it to customs, because it's not a firearm. It just looks like one. If you pull one of these out for use against pirates who are not as well armed you will appear to be, you will either scare them off, or start a gun fight, in which case you will probably lose. But, it's an option," he said.
> 
> Thankfully, I've never had to use the advice given by these two experts. I have given the problem a lot of thought. It's what they call a "wicked problem", (See Google: wicked problem) and it's that kind of problem that leads to debates like you'll find on this thread.
> 
> May you be at peace with fair winds. Following seas are over rated.


I've trained at the farm, and I've trained at Quantico, and I don't know who gave you this advice, but I would really think hard before following any of it.


----------



## hellsop

The baton's not a bad idea, but for the love of little blue smurfs, TRAIN WITH IT. The only thing more dangerous than being without a weapon at all is having one that you don't use regularly, especially toward people that have one that they do.

Don't like the Grolsch bottle idea at all. Even if you drive someone off, now your cockpit is full of broken glass and burning gasoline, and I don't see the evening getting much better from there.


----------



## denverd0n

hellosailor said:


> In some places, the replica is illegal anyway.


Yes. Do not assume that the gun laws everywhere you might go are going to be the same as at home. There are places where having a replica assault rifle is going to get you sent to prison for just as long as having the real thing. If I gotta go to prison either way, I would much rather have the real thing!


----------



## lapworth

Been to Haiti three times, never carried a gun but always had a security guard from Haiti with a gun. Hired from people I trust in Haiti, guess you can say people I would trust with my life.


----------



## tankersteve

I love the self-defense ideas on sailing forums. 

If I were to ask about the BEST sailboat on serious gun and tactics websites (Lightfighter...), I imagine I'd keep hearing about the awesome speed and seahandling of the MacGregor 26. I see similar quality of responses about proactive self defense ideas and techniques when perusing this thread.

Just wow. Any more awesome MARSOC SEAL HAHO-jumping Sniper Delta Ranger working-for-a-3-letter-agency war-stories to relay?

Tankersteve


----------



## aeventyr60

I'd tell you, then I'd have to, well you know.....


----------



## capta

tankersteve said:


> I love the self-defense ideas on sailing forums.
> 
> If I were to ask about the BEST sailboat on serious gun and tactics websites (Lightfighter...), I imagine I'd keep hearing about the awesome speed and seahandling of the MacGregor 26. I see similar quality of responses about proactive self defense ideas and techniques when perusing this thread.
> 
> Just wow. Any more awesome MARSOC SEAL HAHO-jumping Sniper Delta Ranger working-for-a-3-letter-agency war-stories to relay?
> Tankersteve


The facts of the matter are pretty cut and dry.
In most countries cruisers visit, if you are caught with an undeclared weapon of any kind (including a spear gun, mace, pepper spray or taser), whether you use it or not, you will most likely spend many, many years in jail there and lose your boat. A 3rd world jail, by the way.
If you declare it, the weapon and whatever ammunition you have aboard must usually be turned in at declaration, so they are not available for defense there.
So you can put folks down for trying to come up with some form of self defense (as crazy as the idea of using a toy gun against someone with even a machete is) or you could offer some useful suggestions.
I don't think you've quite got the spirit of this sight right, yet. We're here to help one another, not put each other down.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Breeze

Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six...... even if the trial is only by one.


----------



## outbound

Last year on the east end of Tortola a fellow cruiser was in his boat when he was awaken by some thugs stealing his dinghy. He came up the companionway and they decamped. However, they shot at him. Fortunately missing but damaging his boom and boat. Others say shots fired is more common when boat is U.S. flagged. Perps assume U.S. flagged vessels carry guns so are more likely to shoot first and ask questions later.


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## Group9

outbound said:


> Last year on the east end of Tortola a fellow cruiser was in his boat when he was awaken by some thugs stealing his dinghy. He came up the companionway and they decamped. However, they shot at him. Fortunately missing but damaging his boom and boat. Others say shots fired is more common when boat is U.S. flagged. Perps assume U.S. flagged vessels carry guns so are more likely to shoot first and ask questions later.


From having interviewed thousands of criminals, I would respectfully suggest that you are giving them way too much credit in the thinking and planning department. They shoot at their victims because:
a) they feel like it,
b) they don't see any good reason not to,
c) they had no moral training in their upbringing, and, don't see how it is wrong, and
d) they can't project ten seconds into the future to see what is coming next.


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## Minnewaska

Thise BVI punks had been arrested for dinghy theft before, several times. There are articles in the Beacon. No doubt they fired because they thought they would be caught/identified, ie they were scared (which belongs on group9's list). No one believes a U.S. flagged vessel is carrying arms in the BVI. Maybe the Bahamas.


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## outbound

Interesting input. Guy uses same yacht management company as me. Canadian lady arranges a dinner for all of this yacht management clients on Fridays. I was on the dock with nothing planned so went. I repeated the consensus opinion of that group. Agree many can be wrong as easily as one and your opinion makes sense. Perhaps they were responding to the bullets flying past old glory. Maybe I should start reading the Beacon. Usually just read Globe/Times/WSJ when I have time and internet.


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## seafrontiersman

After Canada, the US and other Western nations have poured BILLIONS in to Haiti, this is how Hatians treat their benifactors?

Boycot the ungrateful filth!


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze

I would not expect rose blooms from a thistle.......


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## Minnewaska

seafrontiersman said:


> After Canada, the US and other Western nations have poured BILLIONS in to Haiti, this is how Hatians treat their benifactors?
> 
> Boycot the ungrateful filth!


Pretty unlikely the thugs saw a penny of it, not that I'm defending the degenerates.


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## lhalifax

Dear all,
I'm a reader of this forum even if I didn't signup so far; please forgive me, and I will adequately introduce myself on the appropriate board; but I'm on mobile now, and it's a bit uncomfortable.

On topic (well, the new one  ): AFAIK, as long as the firearms don't leave one's vessel, are technically in the country which you show the flag of.

Ships (and aircrafts, FWIW) do regularly carry arms on board, and I never heard of a shipmaster being jailed for this: I can't see any legal reason to act differently based on vessel's size.

And yes, although I never sailed armed so far, I will certainly do so in the future, if deemed reasonable based on route, destination, and so forth.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I'm not a native English speaker.

Fair winds,
.LH.


----------



## Minnewaska

lhalifax said:


> .....AFAIK, as long as the firearms don't leave one's vessel, are technically in the country which you show the flag of.......


A technicality, without distinction. Customs and immigration rules apply, the moment your anchor touches the seabead, inside a sovereign country's waters. Rules may (and often do) differ between recreational, commercial and military vessels. They can even differ depending on whether you arrive by plane or boat.

Do you think you would be permitted to carry recreational drugs aboard, or a nuclear weapon to make a silly point, if legal (perhaps not illegal) in your home country? There are plenty of countries where much of this stuff simply isn't addressed in their primitive legal system. That's not logically going to give you a free pass wherever you go.


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## rbyham

I have not read the whole thread so please forgive if the info is here but is there any update on the couple?


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## rbyham

Did a quick Google for the whole story... www.noonsite.com/Countries/Haiti/haiti-violent-attack-on-cruising-couple-1


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## rbyham

It actually sounds like they did much right and got away lucky. A group of 10-15 attackers would be overwhelming force and not something I would wish to face no matter how well armed...


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## timangiel

Everyone has a plan...until they get punched in the face.

If something like this happened to you, would you call it quits?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Minnewaska

timangiel said:


> Everyone has a plan...until they get punched in the face.
> 
> If something like this happened to you, would you call it quits?


Classic line from the philosopher, Mike Tyson.

I think most that have a plan to fight off a boarding crew, would fold the moment they were proverbially punched in the face. Keep in mind that the police miss 2/3rds of the time. One's odds are pretty low for being effective, while soiling their pants.


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## guitarguy56

Minnewaska said:


> I think most that have a plan to fight off a boarding crew, would fold the moment they were proverbially punched in the face. Keep in mind that the police miss 2/3rds of the time. One's odds are pretty low for being effective, while soiling their pants.


The only way to face the fear is to have a 'life changing' event happen to you... I have (previously posted many years earlier on this forum) and now am not afraid to take on anyone regardless of size or number of perpetrators. As many have said YES you will soil your pants (I only bled)... but having warm oozing blood flowing from ones body is enough to know one will never try to be in that situation again (mental note)... This time it is THEY that will die a slow or fast demise depending on the time and place... It need not be with a gun... many a weapon can be instantly used for your defense, defense of your loved one... even a credit card/pencil is lethal placed in the proper location on the perpetrator... martial arts are also a good defense but need to be close to use... if all they want is money or items best to give them what they want if they are way overpowered with weapons against you... if they intend harm then by all means HARM them at any costs and deal with the authorities later.

No plan other than to be prepared but it would be nice to have ready defensive items at strategic locations in the cabin and on deck to use at a moments need.


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## Minnewaska

guitarguy56 said:


> ...........even a credit card/pencil is lethal placed in the proper location on the perpetrator...


Right. Uncle Same taught me the same thing when being trained to save the world from communism. The issue is when to respond with lethal force, not necessarily how. If lethal force is appropriate, any form will do.



> ......if all they want is money or items best to give them what they want....


Exactly, how would you know that, before you decide to defend yourself? In many cases, the cruiser doesn't even speak the same language.


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## guitarguy56

Minnewaska said:


> Right. Uncle Same taught me the same thing when being trained to save the world from communism. The issue is when to respond with lethal force, not necessarily how. If lethal force is appropriate, any form will do.
> 
> Exactly, how would you know that, before you decide to defend yourself? In many cases, the cruiser doesn't even speak the same language.


If you took military training then you know what I mean... but to add I took the IDF Haganah training in Atlanta many years ago before I went to China on business... Haganah training if you don't know what it is Israeli Defense Forces Special Forces. The familiar 'two finger to the throat' technique incapacitates a victim quickly (what you see sometimes in movies) is very effective and one of the techniques learned.

Defense against punches and kicks and other strikes, escapes and releases from chokes, bear hugs and other grappling techniques
Defense against weapons like knives, clubs, etc., and defense against guns, other firearms, automatic weapons, and even grenades.
Effective defensive techniques against multiple attackers and 'mano a mano' combat.
It is very effective for use against arm blows including all hand parts, arms and elbows, kicks including all foot parts with/without shoes and various knee strike tactics among other techniques against the body.
Survival techniques including wrestling/grappling techniques like pinching, tendon and muscle tearing, hard core submission (breaking) techniques and defenses against perpetrator deploying his weapon and other defense techniques based on how much training you take...

I took the very basic training but what is basically taught the most is NEVER try to get hit EVER, never be overly zealous, and strength is not needed (weight and size is not needed) as the advantage of skill would be on your side (think Bruce Lee) to win the advantage...

Best Training ever and one that can and will be used on the boat and while cruising anywhere!


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## Minnewaska

Good on you, gg56, but that didn't answer the question you quoted.


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## Sal Paradise

You could use a nail gun to try to secure the hatch boards, and if , in your panic , you missed and 3 inch steel nails accidently hit the pirates, that would be extremely painful for them.










You have to be so careful with these things, don't ever wire the guard back because they have a lot of power - they can put a 3 inch nail through solid oak .....and the guard is there for safety.


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## guitarguy56

Minnewaska said:


> Good on you, gg56, but that didn't answer the question you quoted.


No one is 100% sure they are going to survive a threatening boarding on your vessel.... Preparedness is the only defense you have... Knowing the language they speak will sometimes be the best defensive weapon you have since the perpetrators would not know you understand them right?

Would you know what the perpetrators mean if they said this: 'Los echamos a fuera y les tiramos unos tiros a cada uno'?

Would you know the difference between the above and this: 'Solo queremos las joyerias y la plata... no queremos acer danos'?

So knowing the language can save your life in that instant.... It would behoove anyone here to learn several languages spoken in the Caribbean: Spanish, French... and lessor Dutch as the only country speaking Dutch is Aruba... Portuguese to the lessor extent as many don't venture that far south to Brazil.

Regarding the Haganah training and being well versed... the attackers would never know by looking at you you are as lethal as they are... may be one or too armed pirates in the cabin and this is your advantage as simple everyday items you have placed in the cabin can take these guys out even if they fire a shot... you now have their weapon to use against any others on deck...

Having said that... I am 5'9" and 180 lbs and yet I had small 5'1" 120 lb. woman take me down during the training... not sure the pirate(s) would see this coming... as said size and weight is not your advantage...

This Youtube clip of the Haganah FIGHT training highlights the basic moves... sort of martial arts combination with defensive strategy...






Knowing the intent of the pirates or perpetrators is one step in surviving a boarding... Hopefully it never get to this.


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## Don L

the best skill a bad ass can have is to look like an old fat guy


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## seabeau

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yes dont turn it into a gun htread. They are not Americans they cant have guns.


 Yea! Not having a Bill of Rights must sux.


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## seabeau

PitApe said:


> Yup. Stay away from areas known to be dangerous.


 Really? What are you gonna do? Stay tied to the dock?


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## PitApe

seabeau said:


> Really? What are you gonna do? Stay tied to the dock?


It's a big world, with not all that many areas that are really dangerous due to piracy. One could sail for a lifetime and never have to go through waters with undue rick of piracy.

Well, until you have to visit the fuel dock :wink.


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## guitarguy56

Don0190 said:


> the best skill a bad ass can have is to look like an old fat guy


Don... unfortunately this will not work in your favor...










I Survived a Pirate Attack | YachtPals.com


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## Don L

I don't know about that. No way to tell just how dangerous that guy might be (perfect camouflage). And he has already positioned himself behind those guys and distracted them from looking at him.


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## guitarguy56

Don0190 said:


> I don't know about that. No way to tell just how dangerous that guy might be (perfect camouflage). And he has already positioned himself behind those guys and distracted them from looking at him.


Yes he was very lucky indeed... Good thing he had the advantage quickly and spooked the perpetrators into submission... Glad he got out fine in this case... many others were not so fortunate.


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## Don L

I only commented based on the photo and didn't even notice there was a story link. Guess I just wasn't being alert for a sneak attack on a simple comment :-(


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## guitarguy56

Don0190 said:


> I only commented based on the photo and didn't even notice there was a story link. Guess I just wasn't being alert for a sneak attack on a simple comment :-(


Ha ha... Great survival story though...


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## garritt

there are places stateside that I would NOT throw out my anchor


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## garritt

Sea&Stars said:


> Not sure what may come of this but it may be of concern... US army general concerned about potential ISIS attacks in Caribbean | Caribbean360


this is ********.....another scare tactic w/o any justification ....he was probably paid by the M/I to say this


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## Minnewaska

garritt said:


> this is ********.....another scare tactic w/o any justification ....he was probably paid by the M/I to say this


Take your head out of the sand. He's not saying every square inch of the Caribbean and I highly doubt he's fabricating. This stuff is happening all over, why would you not believe it could happen in certain places in the Caribbean?


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## garritt

I will not live in fear of the improbable , but will stay vigilant & prepared for problems at sea.......the ocean is more of a concern, than stories from people that want wars ( the Military/Industrial complex )....


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## Yorksailor

Garritt, you need to go to Venezuela and see how safe you feel...We know personally 5 boat that have been attacked...The danger out there is very real!


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## garritt

insider info from our cruising community is a major ingredient as to where to go & NOT go..........which bay to anchor in & to NOT anchor in.........you can learn so much more being out there than you can in your arm chair...........again our cruisers are a major ingredient as where you should be & when


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## Minnewaska

I've known many generals and admirals and not a single one of them wants war. Ever. This isn't the middle ages anymore.

Dismiss their input at your own peril. They are typically very good at what they do. Humans too, but still very good.


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## capta

Minnewaska said:


> Take your head out of the sand. He's not saying every square inch of the Caribbean and I highly doubt he's fabricating. This stuff is happening all over, why would you not believe it could happen in certain places in the Caribbean?


A very interesting discussion, but how exactly do you think it relates to cruisers?
Attacks could be launched against airplanes, cruise ships or even the mega yachts, but what benefit would a terrorist attack against a couple of private yachts mean to a terrorist cause?
It probably wouldn't even make the nightly news. As far as I know, even the horrendous attack on Rainbow in Union didn't get much, if any, attention outside the cruising community.
As I said, it's interesting, but kinda like yelling 'shark' when it is a dolphin at a busy beach, to most of us out cruising.


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## guitarguy56

capta said:


> A very interesting discussion, but how exactly do you think it relates to cruisers?
> Attacks could be launched against airplanes, cruise ships or even the mega yachts, but what benefit would a terrorist attack against a couple of private yachts mean to a terrorist cause?
> It probably wouldn't even make the nightly news. As far as I know, even the horrendous attack on Rainbow in Union didn't get much, if any, attention outside the cruising community.
> As I said, it's interesting, but kinda like yelling 'shark' when it is a dolphin at a busy beach, to most of us out cruising.


One scenario everyone has overlooked but the U.S. Caribbean Command General has not and neither has the NSA or Immigration department is that many of these pirated vessels can be a source of these terrorists coming into our shores and causing untold terror and destruction unless they are intercepted by our Coast Guard. It's a big ocean and many open shores along the continental U.S. for them to infiltrate during night hours... So yes the general has concerns since many of these countries besides Puerto Rico (which shares data with the military and government due to its Commonwealth status) do not have the means or budget to share information with the U.S. as mentioned in the article.


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## XSrcing

It's not just the Coast Guard, but the Navy has several interdiction boats in the Caribbean. Between smugglers and pirates (which are often one in the same) they were always busy.


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## Waterrat

Capta I think in some ways it does relate. Fear is an excellent motivator and some political parties in USA like to profess terrorism as a huge threat to our safety. Just like some cruisers like to say pirates are a huge risk to our safety. If a person is sailing in certain areas the risk increases significantly but are still very low. The risk of terrorism to US citizens is virtually 0. Approximately 3500 U.S. citizens have died from terrorist attacks world wide in the last 20 years and most on one day. If I am attempting to reduce harm to the citizens of a country and I have limited resources I should quantify actual risks and allocate my limited money and labor to mitigate significant risk first. How many cruisers sailing the Caribbean die from heart attacks, skin cancer, drowning, influenza, mosquito transmitted disease and car accidents compared to pirates? What amount of time and resource should a captain allocate to the risk of death or injury due to piracy (petty theft/ strong arm theft on boats) cruising say the Bahamas. Quantify the true risk. We should be rational and quantify actual risks. The problem is that people are not rational they are rationalizers. If a captain takes a rifle, shot gun , hand gun etc the most significant risk is to the safety of captain and crew and innocent by standers. There are few situation where a gun will increase safety for anyone and many many more situation where it will significantly decrease safety. That is a fact rationalize all you want. The time, cost and effort spend traveling with guns on sailboats would be best spent on actually risk. Learn about weather routing, fire prevention, diesel/engine repair and maintenance, standing rigging inspection, learning to swim. etc etc etc. There is a whole lot of risk that are significantly more likely to affect the health and safety of crew then Pirates. Even capta where you are located and where you are cruising your risk of death or serious injury from pirates are very low compared to any number of other risk. Yes we should stick together and communicate where problems occur and have situational awareness of our surroundings but many folks take the risk way too far. 

A similar argument could be made for carrying life raft. For the price of a life raft I could have an additional large trash pump. I could replace all the cheap sea cocks and cheap plumping fittings. We all do have limited time and resources we should quantify actual risk and mitigate actual risk and step back from our fear to do something that is actually productive.


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## guitarguy56

XSrcing said:


> It's not just the Coast Guard, but the Navy has several interdiction boats in the Caribbean. Between smugglers and pirates (which are often one in the same) they were always busy.


Agree and one concern always is the number of refugees fleeing Cuba and Haiti coming onto our shores.... Some get caught but how many we do not intercept which are either friendly and seeking asylum or true hardcore terrorists awaiting their cells to do their nastiness?


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## Waterrat

Fear and more fear. 99% of folks want to get along and live in healthy and safe places. It is a very small number of people that want to harm others.


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## capta

guitarguy56 said:


> One scenario everyone has overlooked but the U.S. Caribbean Command General has not and neither has the NSA or Immigration department is that many of these pirated vessels can be a source of these terrorists coming into our shores and causing untold terror and destruction unless they are intercepted by our Coast Guard. It's a big ocean and many open shores along the continental U.S. for them to infiltrate during night hours... So yes the general has concerns since many of these countries besides Puerto Rico (which shares data with the military and government due to its Commonwealth status) do not have the means or budget to share information with the U.S. as mentioned in the article.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. Been there, done that!
In the early 80's the drug smugglers tried that. Killed a few yachties in the Bahamas and stole their boats to use for drug smuggling. And you know what? It only lasted a few months because they figured out that smuggling drugs in a boat everybody was looking for was just plain STUPID!
So now we have terrorist groups with more money than gawd and you think that they are going to steal a 5/6 knot 40' sailboat for a terrorist attack, when they can legally buy something a great deal bigger and faster and more able to avoid the authorities, that no one is looking for? 
I don't.


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## Sal Paradise

Come on guys. We need to keep the fear going so that we can justify spending untold billions on the mili/prison/police/industrial complex. DO NOT QUESTION THIS, YOU IDIOTS [grin]


----------



## Sal Paradise

Minnewaska said:


> I've known many generals and admirals and not a single one of them wants war. Ever. This isn't the middle ages anymore.


Well I've known many Colonels and they all want a pension.


----------



## outbound

Some of this is Bonfire of the Vanities and some circular reasoning.
If you are actually cruising you will be new to the next area you visit. You will not have local knowledge. Through cruiseheimers or like nets you can ask but even that input may not be current or correct.
No country does not have bad elements including your own. Maybe it's a small %age but that's irrelevant if you are unfortunate enough to interact with that sociopath. 
There are hots spots in all countries be it east side of Tortola or St Johns or Nausau or the ABCs or Haiti or western carribean or wherever. Yes there are regions that are unsafe as well. Accept pragmatically carrying firearms is difficult and likely ineffectual. Similarly in general risks are the same as if you were unlucky or unwise in your home town.
Yes do what you can to mitigate your risks but as said sinking from a lighting strike is more likely.

BTW not having a raft especially if you sail outside helicopter range or in areas such as the carribean where SAR is often by volunteers is just foolish.


----------



## Waterrat

outbound said:


> BTW not having a raft especially if you sail outside helicopter range or in areas such as the carribean where SAR is often by volunteers is just foolish.


Not arguing for or against rafts just that sometimes you are better spending limited time and resources on significantly higher risks. A captain can do a lot to prevent sinking for the cost of a life raft. Just because I have a life raft on a Mcgregor 26 doesn't mean I should sail it to Bermuda.


----------



## XSrcing

Waterrat said:


> Fear and more fear. 99% of folks want to get along and live in healthy and safe places. It is a very small number of people that want to harm others.


It's not fear mongering, it's simple fact. If it scares you that pirates do indeed exist, even though you are statistically never going to interact with them, that's your choice.

It's also your choice whether or not you want to prepare for that 1% that might happen. Like I said elsewhere, for many of you it's just not worth the hassle preparing for that 1%. And that is also perfectly fine and reasonable.


----------



## Waterrat

Prepare for the 1% but make sure you are prepared for the other 99% first. Limited time and resources means you must quantify and mitigate significant risks first. That is only prudent and rational. I might get shot standing on the bow working sails but I am more likely to go overboard and drown. Should I choose a bullet proof vest or a harness and PFD? Should I buy the bullet proof vest while neglecting other and more significant risks. That is my point. Part of good seamanship is to be prepared for the 1%. Where does piracy fall on the long list of risk? Should I waste my limited resources of time and money mitigating the greater threat first or instead focus on the least probable?


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

capta said:


> So now we have terrorist groups with more money than gawd and you think that they are going to steal a 5/6 knot 40' sailboat for a terrorist attack, when they can legally buy something a great deal bigger and faster and more able to avoid the authorities, that no one is looking for?
> I don't.


And, ehm, they would also have to learn to sail the darn thing. And to dock it at least well enough to not drown, and not to crash into so many things that the whole neighborhood wakes up.

Wouldn't be my first choice as a terrorist.


----------



## guitarguy56

Article never mentioned sailing vessels and neither have I if misunderstood by anyone here... But to believe the pirates aren't sailors or know how to sail a vessel, how do you think they're out there in the seas to start out with, they aren't afraid of the dangerous ocean so surely because they use a powerboat does not mean anyone of them does not know how to sail... not rocket science as others have mentioned in other threads?


----------



## MedSailor

guitarguy56 said:


> Article never mentioned sailing vessels and neither have I if misunderstood by anyone here... But to believe the pirates aren't sailors or know how to sail a vessel, how do you think they're out there in the seas to start out with, *they aren't afraid of the dangerous ocean *so surely because they use a powerboat does not mean anyone of them does not know how to sail... not rocket science as others have mentioned in other threads?


We should encourage them to spend more time on the forums... :devil


----------



## guitarguy56

MedSailor said:


> We should encourage them to spend more time on the forums... :devil


Agree... much less dangerous here... at the worse maybe carpal tunnel syndrome at the keyboards!


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

guitarguy56 said:


> Article never mentioned sailing vessels and neither have I if misunderstood by anyone here... But to believe the pirates aren't sailors or know how to sail a vessel, how do you think they're out there in the seas to start out with, they aren't afraid of the dangerous ocean so surely because they use a powerboat does not mean anyone of them does not know how to sail... not rocket science as others have mentioned in other threads?


This was not about your garden variety pirates but about the fear that terrorists take over boats as a means to get to the US undetected


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## guitarguy56

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> This was not about your garden variety pirates but about the fear that terrorists take over boats as a means to get to the US undetected


Don't know about 'garden variety' pirates (need them in my garden working away)... but any pirate boarding your vessel you're not going to know their motives... be it riches of the loot or the vessel for other motives... Pirates are terroristic one way or another... motives well... that's another you won't know till it happens.


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## aliquidlife

Terrible for ocean Cruisers. .


----------



## sailornoob

really terrible. Having lived in South Florida for about 4 years now I have known a high number of Haitians. [Racist comments removed] I am a very well travelled guy and would hesitate to generalize like that, but about Haitians i really can. In part it is probably a symptom of their terrible conditions, but again, other people in history have overcome their worse conditions(the first israeli settlers in the 1930s-40s for example) whereas hatians have not. After living amongst hatian communities truly have nothing to say about them positive

But for one thank god they were not more seriously killed. [Removed]

I would have had defenses onboard. I am not talking about guns, although I would have probably had a semiautomatic handgun assuming it was legal (which even for a European at sea I'm sure it would slide as legal) anyway I am trained in a lot of older weapons such as swords, spear, bow that I am sure would be legal to have onboard. If all they were was 6 guys with clubs and machetes, and I had seen them coming, I would have defended my ****. Not to say I wouldn't have been quite intimidated or that it would be easy. If they have guns, well then it's another story. Or in this case it sounds like they may have snuck up on the boat. Unlikely for a Hatian to be able to afford a quiet motor, but at sea a lot can happen without being realized. well there's my two sense. I get a feeling it didn't serve any real purpose but I had to vent.


----------



## uncle stinky bob

sailornoob said:


> really terrible. Having lived in South Florida for about 4 years now I have known a high number of Haitians. [Edited] I am a very well travelled guy and would hesitate to generalize like that, but about Haitians i really can. In part it is probably a symptom of their terrible conditions, but again, other people in history have overcome their worse conditions(the first israeli settlers in the 1930s-40s for example) whereas hatians have not. After living amongst hatian communities truly have nothing to say about them positive
> 
> But for one thank god they were not more seriously killed.
> 
> I would have had defenses onboard. I am not talking about guns, although I would have probably had a semiautomatic handgun assuming it was legal (which even for a European at sea I'm sure it would slide as legal) anyway I am trained in a lot of older weapons such as swords, spear, bow that I am sure would be legal to have onboard. If all they were was 6 guys with clubs and machetes, and I had seen them coming, I would have defended my ****. Not to say I wouldn't have been quite intimidated or that it would be easy. If they have guns, well then it's another story. Or in this case it sounds like they may have snuck up on the boat. Unlikely for a Hatian to be able to afford a quiet motor, but at sea a lot can happen without being realized. well there's my two sense. I get a feeling it didn't serve any real purpose but I had to vent.


WOW!! I find you do be an extremely racist, rather full of himself kind of guy that I really hope to never, ever meet. I really rather hope a Mod takes note of this racist post and BANS you! Whats really rather funny is a friend of mine down in South Florida was going to offer help with your boat, he's a very good apprentice shipwright, and a damn good man! but sadly he's also Haitian, so I'm sure not welcome on your "boat".


----------



## seabeau

uncle stinky bob said:


> WOW!! I find you do be an extremely racist, rather full of himself kind of guy that I really hope to never, ever meet. I really rather hope a Mod takes note of this racist post and BANS you! Whats really rather funny is a friend of mine down in South Florida was going to offer help with your boat, he's a very good apprentice shipwright, and a damn good man! but sadly he's also Haitian, so I'm sure not welcome on your "boat".


 I'm sorry, but I fail to see any racism in his statement. Haitian is a nationality, not as you allude to, a race.


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## uncle stinky bob

seabeau said:


> I'm sorry, but I fail to see any racism in his statement. Haitian is a nationality, not as you allude to, a race.


I wonder what a Haitian would say to that? Your are correct, I stand corrected! It was prejudicial, not racist. However I never alluded anything, I flat said it. and in fact I'll read between his line's and call him both racist and prejudice. I think I'm allowed that assumption, as he has done the same to a whole nation of people. by the way, no reason to be sorry, you also are allowed your opinion. Thanks and have a great day!


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## Garbone

Have a buddy who is a retired Hospital Corpsman. He did several tours in Haiti with the Marines doing relief work. His view is very much like the above post as he has nothing good to say. 

I guess sometimes reality itself can be offensive. 

I would not call my friends view prejudicial as it was an opinion form thru hard experience.


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## sharkbait

uncle stinky bob said:


> WOW!! I find you do be an extremely racist, rather full of himself kind of guy that I really hope to never, ever meet. I really rather hope a Mod takes note of this racist post and BANS you! Whats really rather funny is a friend of mine down in South Florida was going to offer help with your boat, he's a very good apprentice shipwright, and a damn good man! but sadly he's also Haitian, so I'm sure not welcome on your "boat".


There was nothing racist in his statement. You should apologize.


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## Scotty C-M

Have "nothing to say about them positive" or "has nothing good to say." Really? On the surface that sounds both prejudiced and racist. Upon contemplation sounds .. well kind of stupid. You can find good in people if you look. I almost didn't respond to this because people with this kind of extreme outlook just want to argue, and that is not worth getting involved with. I couldn't, in all conscience, let this obnoxious post go unanswered.


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## uncle stinky bob

sharkbait said:


> There was nothing racist in his statement. You should apologize.


NO, I was corrected, admitted my error, corrected my wording (Prejudicial not raicist). Although my personal opinion stands. So perhaps it is you who should apologize to me? Don't bother, it's not required, but perhaps you could read all the post's first, then comment on specifics.


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## Garbone

Let me see, take the opinion of a friend who I have spent time talking to about his actual experiences over a year in country in Port Au Prince or take your opinion on the internet. Hmmm. I think I will run with the guy I know who that spent the time, sorry. 

Haiti stays off my "will visit" list. Thanks.


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## Donna_F

sailornoob said:


> ...Maybe black people just don't like sailing, but for some reason I only met one live aboard black guy since being in the sailing world


That "well traveled" world of yours must not extend beyond your own boat.

I think we've established where we all stand. Let's put this to bed.


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## outbound

Interesting I met Morgan Freeman down in North Sound. He was living on his Shannon 43. I far as I know that's a sailboat.

For awhile sailed with a pediatrician. He had done multiple passages and was a good beercan racer. He was quite pigmented so I guess you wouldn't call him black but rather blue. I just called him my friend.

Then there's a pediatric neurologist I trained with. Tossed it all and went cruising. Think back in Arkansas they thought him black

Or there's....I could go on and on

The statement about the absence of black sailors is ridiculous. Period.

The statement racism exists between carribean blacks v. US blacks or between carribean blacks and whites may have some limited merit but it's still racist and abhorrent in any form.

Haiti is a failed society at present. At one time they gave us important support during the American Revolution and were a justifiably proud successful nation. Hopeful the rule of law and re-establishment of a functioning society will occur in the future. Until then sadly it is a place to avoid but not for racial reasons rather reasons of personal safety.


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## Don L

I'm all confused. I think some other posters were also confused or they wouldn't have made their posts.


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## tdw

The argument that because someone else is loathsome entitles someone else to be equally loathsome simply does not hold water. 

Likewise, playing dodgy brothers by suggesting that Haitians are not a race, ergo collectively insulting them is not racism is complete and utter bs. A Snake Oil salesman's pitch is less vile than that. 

Ironically enough in his now deleted last post SailorNoob condemns himself by admitting that some Haitians he met were decent folk. Says it all really. 

SailorNoob you will have seen my messages. If you wish to remain part of this group then take my advice to heart.


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## guitarguy56

It is unfortunate I replied to Sailornoob's posts and got the thread heated because I believed he really was seeking help with his project but never knew about his racial negativity and I do not tolerate people who act, behave, or believe in racism. I work with many many nationalities in my business and those of my clients and never would I tolerate this behavior. That said I will carefully review any threads I respond to from this day forward on this and other forums.


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## Faster

Indeed.. if ever there seemed a person in need of guidance and help, here he was.

However.......


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## tdw

guitarguy56 said:


> It is unfortunate I replied to Sailornoob's posts and got the thread heated because I believed he really was seeking help with his project but never knew about his racial negativity and I do not tolerate people who act, behave, or believe in racism. I work with many many nationalities in my business and those of my clients and never would I tolerate this behavior. That said I will carefully review any threads I respond to from this day forward on this and other forums.


Yeah, I think we are all guilty of feeding if not trolls then at least those bearing passing similarities. I know I sometimes plunge into the mud when I should've kept my keyboard shut but alas we all fall victim to impulsive behaviour at times.

btw ... I reckon you were correct re Bristol Fashion. I've always thought is referred to being in "good order and seaworthy condition" not "in prefect as new condition". The odd reference I find online seems to back that up as does the Oxford Book of Ships and the Sea.


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## guitarguy56

tdw said:


> Yeah, I think we are all guilty of feeding if not trolls then at least those bearing passing similarities. I know I sometimes plunge into the mud when I should've kept my keyboard shut but alas we all fall victim to impulsive behaviour at times.
> 
> btw ... I reckon you were correct re Bristol Fashion. I've always thought is referred to being in "good order and seaworthy condition" not "in prefect as new condition". The odd reference I find on line seems to back that up as does the Oxford Book of Ships and the Sea.


Agree we all fell victim to this and this other thread with the sailboat data comparison and the banning of the other guy that sort of delved into the racial banter as well. I'm sure Faster did not need the #@*% that came his way with that poster!

Yes... as I said Bristol is in the eye of the beholder and I feel my well taken cared of Hunter is Bristol to my eyes and definitely do not want or need a dock queen but like polished chrome where needed, clean decks, and tidy lines, etc... that to me is the true term of Bristol.


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## tdw

guitarguy56 said:


> Agree we all fell victim to this and this other thread with the sailboat data comparison and the banning of the other guy that sort of delved into the racial banter as well. I'm sure Faster did not need the #@*% that came his way with that poster!


Both Donna and Fast live for this. Their poor sad lives would be incomplete without a regular dose of SailorNoobists. You should never be concerned that their time could be better spent. If they didn't have SailingNoob to worry about they'd worry about not having anything to worry about.


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## Faster

tdw said:


> Both Donna and Fast live for this. Their poor sad lives would be incomplete without a regular dose of SailorNoobists. You should never be concerned that their time could be better spent. If they didn't have SailingNoob to worry about they'd worry about not having anything to worry about.


Huh... Damn...I'm cut to the quick... I've only just got over the CaptRican episode and had cancelled the remaining therapy session... Now I'll have to rebook it


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## guitarguy56

Faster said:


> Huh... Damn...I'm cut to the quick... I've only just got over the CaptRican episode and had cancelled the remaining therapy session... Now I'll have to rebook it


Nothing that a bottle of Angostura Gran Anejo couldn't solve after that episode.


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## Donna_F

Sigh.


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## tdw

Faster said:


> Huh... Damn...I'm cut to the quick... I've only just got over the CaptRican episode and had cancelled the remaining therapy session... Now I'll have to rebook it


I come now .... the only thing you'd like more would be a puppy for Xmas.


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## uncle stinky bob

guitarguy56 said:


> It is unfortunate I replied to Sailornoob's posts and got the thread heated because I believed he really was seeking help with his project but never knew about his racial negativity and I do not tolerate people who act, behave, or believe in racism. I work with many many nationalities in my business and those of my clients and never would I tolerate this behavior. That said I will carefully review any threads I respond to from this day forward on this and other forums.


Well said guitar! It is a nasty thing, racism. I never saw you as supporting it or causing the heat. Good on ya for your words above, a man I can respect!


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## SVAuspicious

Faster said:


> Huh... Damn...I'm cut to the quick... I've only just got over the CaptRican episode and had cancelled the remaining therapy session... Now I'll have to rebook it


*ahem*


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## MarkofSeaLife

I fail to see why Sailornoob 's posts still stand.

Andrew and Donna, I think they should be removed.


Mark


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## Scotty C-M

I agree with Mark.


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## Maine Sail

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I fail to see why Sailornoob 's posts still stand.
> 
> Andrew and Donna, I think they should be removed.
> 
> Mark


I fail to see why it does not say "*Banned*" under his username... That level of egregious racism should have been about a .0001 second permanent nuking...


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## Waterrat

Beautiful job folks. You just restored a little of my eroded hope for humanity. I raise may glass to you all. Justin


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## miatapaul

sharkbait said:


> There was nothing racist in his statement. You should apologize.





uncle stinky bob said:


> NO, I was corrected, admitted my error, corrected my wording (Prejudicial not raicist). Although my personal opinion stands. So perhaps it is you who should apologize to me? Don't bother, it's not required, but perhaps you could read all the post's first, then comment on specifics.


Well there is certainly implied racism involved in the statement, further backed up by the ignorant comments about black people not liking to sail, and that was certainly plainly racist by any definition. And how does one tell a person's nationality? Often it is "assumed" based on things like race and accent, so yes it at the very least is implied racism, and certainly ignorant. Sure when Trump talks about "Mexicans are rapists" it is on it's face only bigoted, but when you realize the implication is that it covers all Latinos then it becomes racist. So there is a fine line, and even the term race is not clearly defined in modern usage, often referring to religion, or region rather than the "original three races" that does not account for the mix that exits in the real world and never did. Besides that: 


> a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group.


is an accepted definition of race, and I think calling someone Haitian does meet that definition, so the statement really is racist.


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## krisscross

Last fall I met this guy on a local lake. He quickly rigged and launched a 22 foot high performance catamaran all by himself, including using a hand beach dolly on the ramp. And then he sailed for hours like a man possessed, all alone in winds gusting to 25 mph, often lifting one hull out of the water. He was in his 40's and he was black. Best cat sailor I have seen in a long time.


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## RL24er

Hey, super fuzzy moderator: How about some freedom to speak one's mind on this site? Are we allowed to quote from the Bible, that there is no one righteous, no not one? Could it follow that some are more unrighteous than others, i.e. Haitians? Isn't having a spirit of offense actually a form of prejudice against your fellow man? Just let it slide


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## Donna_F

Now you're deliberately stirring the pot. Let it go or take it to PWRG.


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## Scotty C-M

Once again I feel compeled to answer what is, in my opinion, a really stupid post, way off topic. RL24er. If you are implying that the Bible gives you the right to call the Hatian people unrightous, then you are totally out of line. Take that stuff somewhere else, please. Actually, don't take it anywhere else - and don't do it here ... 

Sailing. A good lifestyle/sport for all people. Sailing, need to be careful for lots of reasons, in lots of places. Haiti, a land of people in a difficult situation.


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## Faster

Guys... you're seriously veering into PRWG territory, and this forum isn't intended for that. This incident is closed, really (the original subject). 

If you want to continue this debate, start a thread in the appropriate area. This one is closed.


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