# Venting about homemade boat registration in Pennsylvania



## jwoytek (Aug 22, 2008)

Hi friendly sailnetters. I need to vent a little tonight, and it is happening here so maybe others might see this and know they are in for pain if they are in the same situation.

Late last year (December), my wife and I purchased a 35-foot Ted Brewer designed Jason 35. This particular boat was built from plans by the owner. It was a private sale. We negotiated with the owner after a great visit and sail in late summer. We made an offer contingent on survey. We received an absolutely glowing report from the surveyor, with a few notes on things that should be fixed. The owner voluntarily fixed most of them before we even got the report from the surveyor. We agreed to take care of a few items that were more personal preference (getting the propane cylinders inspected and replacing a section of fuel hose are important, but aren't really matters of personal preference; buying a new VHF radio, though, is something I was certainly interested in doing myself!).

By early November, we had agreed on a final price, and planned to meet after Thanksgiving to exchange dollars and paperwork. That happened as planned. We filed with the USCG to transfer the vessel certificate, as she was currently documented and we intended to keep her documented. Shortly thereafter, the government shut down and our application sat idle until last week.

About three weeks ago, I filed the paperwork (and somewhat hefty check to cover state sales tax) with the PA Fish and Boat Commission. Silence for almost two weeks, then a voicemail at home late last week from a nice-sounding woman with PA Fish and Boat with some questions about our application. No problem, I thought. Their documentation for registering a USCG documented vessel was a little unclear, so I figured I checked the wrong box or something.

After playing a bit of phone tag, we finally connected earlier this week, which is when this bombshell got dropped on me:

It is apparently not permitted for one to transfer registration of a homemade boat in the commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

I am a little shocked at this point, for a few reasons. First and foremost, we now seem to own a pretty boat that cannot be put in the water in Pennsylvania. Maybe more upsetting, though, was that this bit of information did not seem to appear on any of their forms, instructions, or the published guidelines for issuing registrations. After hearing this from the nice woman, I did eventually find one mention of the restriction, buried in the FAQ on the website. Additionally, the previous owner and I both spent a good bit of time figuring out how to work through all of the paperwork, and nobody either of us talked to caught it, either. Even MORE frustrating was the fact that the woman told me that this has apparently been on the books for a while, but they only started enforcing it last year.

After talking with the office some more, and discussing that the boat has a hull ID listed with the Coast Guard and a manufacturers' certificate submitted with the documentation application from when she was completed, the woman said that they are sometimes able to make exceptions, and would be sending my application to legal for review.

So now we sit in limbo. I have a plans B and C if they don't approve the registration, though I'd prefer not to have to go down those routes.

Ok, venting done. I hope none of you ever have to deal with this. It is giving me some serious heartburn.

[EDIT: Resolved in post #52]

Jonathan


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Ouch! Hope it works out. Since PA wants the revenue, it probably will. Otherwise, could you register it elsewhere? Other states probably aren't as silly about homebuilt boats. In any case, many states (and PA too, probably) have laws about boats that are in their waters for more than 60 days paying a "usage" fee equivalent to the registration cost, even if they're registered out of state or internationally. Connecticut says it uses these funds to provide pump-out stations. Sure.  Once your boat's sale is registered somewhere, (Delaware is supposed to be cheap), PA probably won't care what the paperwork says, and will be happy to have you pay them to keep the boat moored in PA. Keep smiling - it looks like you have a nice boat, big enough to sail away from PA if you want!


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## jwoytek (Aug 22, 2008)

We live near Pittsburgh, which makes ports in Ohio about equidistant to Erie, PA, where the boat has been all her life and where we are planning to keep her. An out-of-state registration is certainly not out of the question at this point!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Wow. Hope it works out for you.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Simple enough I think, worst case do the transfer elsewhere.

I believe Colorodo lets you do it remotely, no need to go there.

Buyer then "imports" it from Colorado to whatever state they like, again no need to physically move the boat anywhere.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Seems like something the surveyor should have known about.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

We are PA residents. We own a USCG registered vessel, documented out of Wilmington, DE. We have never had a PA state registration. We did register the DINK in DE so that we could use it independently from supporting the big boat.

Is there some PA law that REQUIRES you to register a USCG documented boat with the state?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Confusing situation. Sucks too.

My first thought is that there is absolutely no requirement for a USCG documented vessel to be registered in any state, whatsoever. 

It's the State's themselves that make those rules and they can require it, only if you're within their waters for more than a defined consecutive period of time, such as 90 days. So, the interesting dilemma is, if they won't let you register it, what's their requirement of you, after you've passed that time period? In a rebellious moment, I might say "if you won't take the money, I don't really need your registration for anything, so I'll just stay here without it."

Registering in another State seems futile. That only allows the privilege to stay in that state for an extended period of time. Perhaps that's your backup plan to keep it elsewhere. However, having a DE registration doesn't give you the entitlement to stay permanently in PA (unless those states have some unique reciprocal agreement, I'm not aware of)


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

It seems to me the OP did not state the boat cannot be imported into PA.

Just that the transfer is not permitted within their paperwork jurisdiction.

And I believe CO maybe others, does not require the boat nor any owners to be present there in order to use theirs.

Why boat angel uses that state


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

hpeer said:


> We are PA residents. We own a USCG registered vessel, documented out of Wilmington, DE. We have never had a PA state registration. We did register the DINK in DE so that we could use it independently from supporting the big boat.
> 
> Is there some PA law that REQUIRES you to register a USCG documented boat with the state?


But is the BOAT in PA? In CT, harbormasters submit lists of boats anchored or moored, and after the requisite time period, the state sends owners invoices for the fee if they are not already registered. NY, CA, and many other states operate the same way.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There are some weird references and presumptions above that seem to be confusing the matter.

If you choose to document your vessel, with the USCG, that document serves as your federal form of title to your boat. Some refer to it as a federal form of "registration", which isn't wrong, but the real purpose is to show who owns the vessel and provide a single point to file liens. If they OP has their new documentation, then title has successfully transferred and you don't need anything from any State.

State registration is imposed as a permit to use your property within their borders for longer than a typical transient might stay. Each State defines that timeframe for themselves. That time frame can be different for out of state residents and in-state residents. For example, if I visit another state, I may get a 90 day period to move on or need to register. That State's own residents may be required to register on the same day they arrive. Each State's rules are different. The bottom line is, you don't get to register in one State and get any long term rights in another.

Another point of fact that confuses many is the hailport that you include on your USCG documentation. This hailport has absolutely no relevance, whatsoever, to where the boat is kept, where you live, where you have permission to be, or anything else. It simply must be a valid city/state in the US, even a land-locked place. It has no impact on State registration, nor accrues any rights to be anywhere.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I think john nailed it. From what we've heard, an intrastate registration transfer may not be possible. OK, so screw the state.

The boat is federally documented, which means pretty much every state that requires additional "motor vehicle" registration will be glad to take the taxes (I think South Dakota also does that remotely) and register it elsewhere.

And then presumably the PA laws are something like "all vessels within the waters...for a period of xx days within....must be registered". Could be 183 days in a calendar year, could be 90 consecutive says in the waters (that's NY law) but whatever it is, enjoy sailing the boat with prairie state registration until PA laws require it to be transferred back within state. And of course, they only charge any additional sales/excise taxes due, the other state keeps the money they already got.

They don't want to play nice? OK, give 'em their own game.


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## Teamstone (Jun 6, 2013)

jwoytek said:


> We live near Pittsburgh, which makes ports in Ohio about equidistant to Erie, PA, where the boat has been all her life and where we are planning to keep her. An out-of-state registration is certainly not out of the question at this point!


Normally if you have a Coast Guard Registered boat you don't also do the state registration. You are subject to the tax, but no reg.

Tom AbacoMyst


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## jwoytek (Aug 22, 2008)

Hey, so I'm going to reply here to cover a bunch of replies. First, thanks for the replies. At least I feel like I'm not totally yelling into the wind.  

As Minnewaska stated, the USCG documentation != state registration. PA requires that boats be registered in the state IF they are spending the majority of their time in PA waters. Pennsylvania recognizes a stay > 60 days as "majority of time," so if I did end up registering the boat in another state (likely Ohio, as they are physically close, and have reasonable registration requirements), I would technically have about 60 days after launch to get the boat registered in Pennsylvania. Registration doesn't care where you live--it cares about where the boat lives. 

Pennsylvania Fish and Boat is pretty on top of policing boats in their jurisdiction. They're generally nice people, and I've only had good dealings with them in the past. I wouldn't want to test their patience (nor their lenience) by registering the boat in another state with the intention of flaunting the requirement to register the boat where she lives. I am looking at it as an option to buy me some time to either involve some legal types (if needed) or see if I can transfer an out-of-state registered "homemade" boat to Pennsylvania. 

A "plan Z" is to actually keep the boat at a port in Ohio. I would rather avoid that, though, as we have family in Erie, and being able to stay there and have more time with them was an important factor in deciding to keep a boat there in the first place. Keeping the boat about two hours away from there is not much better than just driving to Erie from home and would probably not help us to actually spend more time there. 

Someone had mentioned that this is something the surveyor should have known. Since even the Fish and Boat folks acknowledged that they only started enforcing this rule quite recently, it probably wasn't a concern. I am going to contact the surveyor to make sure he knows that this is becoming an issue. I'd imagine that there aren't all that many larger sailboats in this area of Pennsylvania that are "homemade" and also in need of a survey.

I'm hoping we get a positive resolution to this next week. I have my fingers crossed. 

jonathan


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## jwoytek (Aug 22, 2008)

Teamstone said:


> Normally if you have a Coast Guard Registered boat you don't also do the state registration. You are subject to the tax, but no reg.


Pennsylvania law requires that boats spending > 60 days in state waters be registered in the state. The USCG Certificate of Documentation serves as title to prove ownership, but does not satisfy the requirements for state registration. I do not have to get a PA title, as the USCG CoD takes the place of the state title.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Looks like the OP fully understands the issue and requirements of state reg vs fed doc. Many others in this thread do not seem to. 

Every State I'm familiar with (only a handful, maybe 5 or 6) all require State registration of USCG documented vessels. RI does. However, if one's boat is documented, none of the states I'm familiar with require you to apply their State registration numbers to the bow. Perhaps that has some confused to think they aren't registered at all. The State always wants the money.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Idea for the OP. 

Don't apply to transfer registration, from state to state, at all. Simply apply as if it had never been registered in any other state in the first place. You have your federal document to prove ownership.


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## jwoytek (Aug 22, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Idea for the OP.
> 
> Don't apply to transfer registration, from state to state, at all. Simply apply as if it had never been registered in any other state in the first place. You have your federal document to prove ownership.


I had briefly considered that, but, according to the FAQ entry that I just found the other day with the only mention of this policy anywhere: "The Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission (PFBC) will only accept applications from the original builder for their personal use for homemade boats...."

I'd love to hear the reasoning behind this from someone who actually knows. I didn't seem to find this kind of wording about homemade boats in neighboring states, though I may just be looking in the wrong places (as, apparently, it wasn't even well-publicized in my own state).

jonathan


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I’d look up what they expect from the “original builder” and see if you can make that claim and provide it. 

Since most components on a boat are simply installed and not built by the owner, I wonder if there’s enough leeway here to make the case that you just bought “boat load” of parts. IOW, what if it had been wrecked and you rebuilt it. 

I’m not one to flaunt the law, as a rule. However, I’m sure they would gladly take your money, if you could figure out how to fit inside their box.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Just an idea but maybe the FAQ is wrong. And just because someone told you they are enforcing it does not make it so.

Perhaps get a copy of the enabling legislation, rule, whatever. Go to the source, read the document, see what it actually says. May help, may not.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

jwoytek said:


> registering the boat in another state
> ..
> looking at it as an option to buy me some time to either involve some legal types (if needed) or see if I can transfer an out-of-state registered "homemade" boat to Pennsylvania


How could it be otherwise?

An out of state boat must be registered, they require that.

You think they are going to say "this boat is banned from PA waters"?

I think that would require some very solid rationale of the public interest involved to stand constitutionally.

Generally a vehicle accepted as registered in one state, gets accepted when the owners moves to another.

Sure maybe tighter inspection, pollution / safety regs, but can't just irrationally ban a very commonly accepted type of boat completely.


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## jwoytek (Aug 22, 2008)

John61ct et al., I decided to go back through the research I did prior to even making an offer on this boat.

In Pennsylvania, the Commonwealth sets forth the laws for boating and fishing in Title 30, Chapter 53 (https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=30&div=0&chpt=53). Title 30 basically says that boats must be registered unless they are exempt (and states the exemptions). No big surprises there. It also establishes the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission, and, among other things, specifically directs the agency to set forth rules and regulations with regard to boat registration. It goes on to say that boaters must be issued a registration card when a signed application and fee is filed with the state through the Commission. OK, simple, good to go there.

The Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission sets forth its regulations in the Pennsylvania Code Title 58, Section II, Chapter 93 (https://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chapter93/chap93toc.html). Now, I've read most of this again for the third or fourth time now. I can find only a couple of regulations dealing with homemade boats. First, they term a homemade boat a "specially constructed" boat. This designation applies to any boat that was built from scratch, or constructed from parts of other boats, or boats that were significantly modified from their original form. Second, the ONLY things it says about specially constructed boats have to do with Pennsylvania TITLE, and establishing ownership prior to initial registration. It says NOTHING about Pennsylvania REGISTRATION of a homemade (specially constructed) boat.

I also reviewed all of the proposed notice of rulemaking entries on the website.

I can't find this thing about homemade boats ANYWHERE, except for this one spot:

https://www.fishandboat.com/LearningCenter/FAQs/Pages/BoatRegistrationTitling.aspx
(go all the way down to item #17)

The wording they quote on "specially constructed boats" is the same as what is in Title 58 Chapter 93 (linked above), which has to do ONLY with TITLING of a boat.

Thanks to a few of you who encouraged me to go back and look through the regulations and laws again. I am pretty confident now that I have enough of a retort that I can bring to get some action, if they do come back and say that they can't register the boat. I hold out some hope that I won't have to go down that path, and that the real problem here was some confusion because I'm doing something out of the ordinary. In any case, I at least feel better about my mental capacity now, because I combed through all of the regulations and such before we even made an offer, and I was sure that I did not see anything that would cause me to question my ability to register this boat.

Seriously, though, I'm not sure why *I* am the one who has to read through these things to prove my position to an organization who is supposed to be intimately familiar with these regulations, but anyway... I hope you all are having a fabulous Friday. 

jonathan


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jwoytek said:


> .....I'm not sure why *I* am the one who has to read through these things to prove my position to an organization who is supposed to be intimately familiar with these regulations.....


Because no government employee, supervisor, manager or chief of the works has any skin in the game, whatsoever. Their jobs are protected no matter how good or bad they are at them and there is no measurement of success in doing well. If they run out of money, they just make the case to take more, not get better or more efficient. It's a bad system.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Well the wording given you was about the **transfer** specifically, to me that also implies titling. 

Which you do not need once you have your USCG doc that is your overriding Title.

Did they ever mention registration?

I would stop dealing with that set of paper pushers. You have no need to "transfer" anything. Whoever owned the boat in the past, try to ignore that.

Go in cold in person to a different location. With your CG doc. Not immediately if possible, if you have a time window let it come close. 

As if coming in as a wide eyed ignorant virgin for the very first time. 

"I bought a boat, have been told I need to register it, have checkbook out, all papers ready, bit bored, full expectation in your heart everything goes smoothly, social engineer the bastards


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## jwoytek (Aug 22, 2008)

john61ct said:


> Go in cold in person to a different location. With your CG doc. Not immediately if possible, if you have a time window let it come close.
> 
> As if coming in as a wide eyed ignorant virgin for the very first time.
> 
> "I bought a boat, have been told I need to register it, have checkbook out, all papers ready, bit bored, full expectation in your heart everything goes smoothly, social engineer the bastards


Dude, you're reading my mind on Plan A.2....


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

An alternative: file for an LLC, with two members, you and the original builder. Do it in PA if it's easy, if not do Delaware. Might cost like $100.

Then you have limitation of liability (so the original builder is not at risk), but as a co-owner he can change the registration to the name of the LLC.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

zedboy said:


> An alternative: file for an LLC, with two members, you and the original builder. Do it in PA if it's easy, if not do Delaware. Might cost like $100.
> 
> Then you have limitation of liability (so the original builder is not at risk), but as a co-owner he can change the registration to the name of the LLC.


I'm not sure I follow the suggestion, but it begs for a few clarifications.

An LLC does very little to insulate one from liability, since they are still the operator of their boat and personally responsible for their actions. Even if they lent the boat to another, they are likely the "manager" of the LLC and, as a result, accountable for the oversight of the operator.

All a corporation does is limit any loss caused by the corporation to the extent of the corporation's assets. However, when the people involved are considered personally responsible for the loss (ie the Captain caused the collision), their assets are fully exposed.

I didn't follow the chain of ownership suggestion, however, it's worth repeating that a vessel must be registered in the State in which the vessel resides. Its doesn't matter where the owner resides, whether individual or corporate.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm not sure I follow the suggestion, but it begs for a few clarifications.
> 
> An LLC does very little to insulate one from liability, since they are still the operator of their boat and personally responsible for their actions. Even if they lent the boat to another, they are likely the "manager" of the LLC and, as a result, accountable for the oversight of the operator.
> 
> ...


Sorry I wasn't clear.

Of course the captain of the vessel is always personally liable. However, if the vessel is owned by a corporation, only the corporation's assets should be exposed to any liability - other owners of the corporation will not be.

Therefore, there should be no reason why the vessel's builder cannot be assigned 50% of the ownership of the LLC, and then change the PA registration of his own home-built vessel to the name of the LLC.

The LLC is just a way of keeping the original owner/builder as an owner without exposing him to liability. The incorporation agreement can specify that the new owner makes all decisions about the vessel, is responsible for all costs, and receives all profit upon sale.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Got it. Clever. No one would ever agree to do it.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Got it. Clever. No one would ever agree to do it.


As in, the previous owner/builder?

I'm partners with my former boss. The only reason we can do it is because liability from the previous company (sold) cannot touch him - and there are former clients who are not happy he sold. There's a reason the law works that way, business would be really hard otherwise...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

zedboy said:


> As in, the previous owner/builder?...


Right. I can't see any recreational boat owner agreeing to stay on as an owner/member of an LLC, with a stranger they sold their boat to.

Despite the clever liability insulation and registration transfer you propose, they could still need to dispense with being named defendants, have to deal with survivor issues, need K1 forms for taxes, etc. It was a good thought exercise, but I don't see it actually happening between strangers.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Many states do not allow the state registration of documented vessels, SC being one.
No sweat. Just keep you document handy and pay your state/city excise taxes when they ask and all will be fine. You would have had to pay sales tax anyway.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Right. I can't see any recreational boat owner agreeing to stay on as an owner/member of an LLC, with a stranger they sold their boat to. [ ... ] It was a good thought exercise, but I don't see it actually happening between strangers.


Just a suggestion :wink

But if it was the only way to get your boat sold to the guy you wanted to sell it to at the price you wanted to sell for, maybe $700 to a good lawyer later you would be ready to sign on the dotted line.

Looks like the builder did a seriously nice job on that boat.


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## jwoytek (Aug 22, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> ...
> I didn't follow the chain of ownership suggestion, however, it's worth repeating that a vessel must be registered in the State in which the vessel resides. Its doesn't matter where the owner resides, whether individual or corporate.


Furthermore, in Pennsylvania, this would still be a transfer of registration, which just puts the game back at square one, but now with a weird corporate entity involved (and not one that I could see the previous owner agreeing to, regardless of how kind and helpful he has been to this point).

I'm actually pretty hopeful at this point, and I really think the office folks handling this were surprised because it is a rare occurrence. I still can't find anything in law or regulation that would prevent transfer of registration. I do, however, get the feeling that I might have to prove that to one or more people along the way.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

It's so nice to live in Minnesota. They make boat ownership easy here. No tax on private sales, registration is good for three years and is *very* cheap, and they're good about working with sketchy title trails and such.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

jwoytek said:


> ...I'm actually pretty hopeful at this point, and I really think the office folks handling this were surprised because it is a rare occurrence. I still can't find anything in law or regulation that would prevent transfer of registration. I do, however, get the feeling that I might have to prove that to one or more people along the way.


I'm pretty hopeful for you. You're the rare case of someone trying to pay the money you owe, whereas most people are trying to weasel out of paying the money they owe.

Here are my comments, from someone who has dealt with PAFBC with other boats:

Regarding the suggestion of going in person, do note that (unless things have changed drastically recently) you will need to drive all the way to Harrisburg (as I once did). PA has added satellite offices for PennDOT car/trailer titling/registrations, but PAFBC is still entirely Harrisburg-centric. You can avoid the drive by dealing with one of those shady notary places that also sell bail bonds uke, but I wouldn't trust any of those guys with anything, much less an unusual issue like this.

I do think you have a winning argument on the merits. You can't title the boat in PA, but USCG won't allow you to anyway. You just want to register it, and the regulations that you cited only appear to limit titling, not registration. You should be able to get to someone who will see your argument and put through the paperwork.

I disagree with the sentiment that government is always incompetent. You have a variety of people with different experience levels, and when you hit them with an unusual case, you'll get different answers from different people. Same thing happens in the private sector.

Maybe things are different in the northwest part of the state, but here in SE PA, enforcement of out-of-state registrations seems lax. They don't come out with binoculars like they do in MD. So if you absolutely can't get it done it PA, you might just consider registering in OH and keeping her in PA. Then you can make another attempt to register in the future (but keep your tax receipts from OH to avoid paying twice).

I do need to warn you that there are two wholly separate taxing entities in PA, and you need to understand the nuances. PAFBC does boat registrations, and is pretty lax about bringing your boat into PA waters. 60 days is allowed, and I think you can get away with longer. However, PA Department of Revenue is very strict about entering the state, and will want your sales/use tax dollars (which makes it ironic that they're refusing to collect them). They don't come out with binoculars searching for boats, but I am aware of people who have been approached for sales/use tax by PA Dept. of Revenue, who apparently harvested their personal data out of the publicly accessible USCG documentation database. For this reason, I strongly suggest you set your hailing port to the state where you pay your sales tax. However, this may no longer be a problem, as I see that USCG no longer makes that data publicly accessible unless you file a FOIA request.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Hailing port really "should" not be relevant.

But your "official residential" (legal domicile) address, and maybe your mailing address given to USCG may be.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

john61ct said:


> Hailing port really "should" not be relevant.
> 
> But your "official residential" (legal domicile) address, and maybe your mailing address given to USCG may be.


Conventional folklore, and perhaps Federal law, says that hailing port is irrelvant, so you can pick "anywhere". However, there is some anecdotal evidence that a state's department of revenue would look up your hailing port (when it was available online) and interpret that as your state of principal use. If you don't want to fight a battle with a state's department of revenue, it may be a good idea to pay your sales/use tax in the state of principal use, and have your hailing port in the same state. Even if you can win that battle, life will be more pleasant if you don't even have to fight it.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

You can put a hailing port from a place you've never visited, no one cares long as its in the geonames DB.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> Conventional folklore, and perhaps Federal law, says that hailing port is irrelvant, so you can pick "anywhere". However, there is some anecdotal evidence that a state's department of revenue would look up your hailing port (when it was available online) and interpret that as your state of principal use. If you don't want to fight a battle with a state's department of revenue, it may be a good idea to pay your sales/use tax in the state of principal use, and have your hailing port in the same state. Even if you can win that battle, life will be more pleasant if you don't even have to fight it.


I've been in this situation with both airplanes and boats. It is true that sales and use tax collectors will assume your federal document mailing address is the location of the boat. However, it hasn't been a fight at all. Sure, the initial contact comes in the form of a huge bill, with penalties and interest and a threatening letter. I assume they use some generic value to get your attention. It's really a bush league banana republic way of doing things, but I just shrug the meatballs off.

I keep my bill of sale and all marina storage bills and reply with copies to prove it was elsewhere. I give my phone number and email and ask that they contact me if they needed anything further. I show I'm not hiding or cheating. I actually had one agent call my house to leave a message to say he'd received them, all was in order and he was closing the file.

On a related point, RI has no sales tax on boats, so half the boats in the state are spending money here, year after year, instead of sending it in one sales tax check. I love competitive taxing policy. I'm sure half the marinas in RI would close and thousands would lose their jobs, without this advantage. We do have a pricey state registration. Mine is over $300 per year. I faithfully send it in. Oddly enough, I know many federally documented boats in RI that haven't and then m not sure there is much of a process to check.


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## jwoytek (Aug 22, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> ...
> I disagree with the sentiment that government is always incompetent. You have a variety of people with different experience levels, and when you hit them with an unusual case, you'll get different answers from different people. Same thing happens in the private sector.
> ...


Yes, and I think that's exactly what is going on here. I am of the opinion that these folks are NOT incompetent. When they get something unfamiliar, though, it throws a wrench in their process, and suddenly a bunch of review and other people need to get inovlved. The person handling the form on the way in is trying to do their job, but requires other people to make that happen. So we wait, and I'll probably end up talking to multiple people, and possibly having to explain things to multiple people. I was frustrated that I had to go through the regulations to prove to myself that there wasn't anything on the books that I could see that would prevent this, but that doesn't help the people on the other end resolve what they may have been told by management on the issue. Management makes mistakes sometimes. Regulations are sometimes hard to interpret. I get it. There's two people in that particular office on any given day, and I'm 100% positive that they are not sitting around throwing paper airplanes (or floating paper boats?) all day long.



TakeFive said:


> ...
> Maybe things are different in the northwest part of the state, but here in SE PA, enforcement of out-of-state registrations seems lax. They don't come out with binoculars like they do in MD. So if you absolutely can't get it done it PA, you might just consider registering in OH and keeping her in PA. Then you can make another attempt to register in the future (but keep your tax receipts from OH to avoid paying twice).
> ...


Given the concentration of commercial and recreational boats in the Erie harbor, I would be surprised if PAFBC didn't send enforcement officers around to the marinas more than occasionally. I know they are quite active on the local lake where we keep our beach cat and kayaks, and they're out almost every day in vehicles and boats with binoculars looking for fishing and boating violations. Erie runs a lot of fishing charters and I think still has a few commercial fishing vessels, and has marina spaces that number into the 1k+ range. The Coast Guard has a station there and they are often out patrolling the bay and surrounding waters, so I can see PAFBC doing the same.

And, really, I don't want to run afoul of these folks. I just want to give the PAFBC their registration fee, and the Commonwealth their sales and use tax, and get my paper card and sticker for the boat. I'll do the out of state thing if I need to buy time, which might have to happen because the boat is going to be forced to launch here soon (it's in storage at the previous owner's yacht club, and they have to launch boats in sequence because of how they're stored).



TakeFive said:


> ...
> I do need to warn you that there are two wholly separate taxing entities in PA, and you need to understand the nuances. PAFBC does boat registrations, and is pretty lax about bringing your boat into PA waters. 60 days is allowed, and I think you can get away with longer. However, PA Department of Revenue is very strict about entering the state, and will want your sales/use tax dollars (which makes it ironic that they're refusing to collect them).
> ...


Somewhat amusingly, the PA Department of Revenue used to come after the previous owner every couple of years to try to collect taxes on the boat. He constantly had to argue that he bought all of the materials and built it, and therefore did not owe any further taxes.

I just want to give these people money. I suppose I might also contact my state reps and tell them that their own commission is currently refusing to take my money. They would probably have an issue with that.

Because photos make everything better:
(old photo from previous owner)


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

jwoytek said:


> ...I suppose I might also contact my state reps and tell them that their own commission is currently refusing to take my money. They would probably have an issue with that....


Definitely start with your own reps. But you might also reach out to Steve Barrar in District 160. He's a sailor (last I talked to him, he owned a Catalina 320) who keeps his boat in Maryland, so may have some knowledge of how the system works. I had some questions about documentation and registration of my boat awhile ago and he had some useful advice.

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/member_information/House_bio.cfm?id=127


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

When a person builds a boat from plans (or from a kit), they need an equivalent to the "production" HIN. In my state, which is a 'full title' state, this adds a step where a local LEO has to put eyes on the vessel and fill out a short form certifying that it's real and the situation is authentic.
The whole point to this is to make it difficult for crooks to create a title for a stolen vessel.

Case in point: A friend of mine built a lovely inboard 24 foot cabin cruiser in his back yard, and then scheduled a short visit from a bemused state trooper to take care of this. And so a title was created and a state-generated 'HIN" was provided to place on the boat. 
The officer told him he only occasionally did one of those visits, and it was a welcomed low stress part of his day!

I would imagine that something like this gets done in most (all?) states, and that the builder took care of that when he finished the construction and then certified to the USCG that he was the (ancient terminology) Mater Carpenter that created it.

Regardless, once you have a title, you should be good to go.... 
Separate from all that, most (all?) states have vessel registration with either bow numbers or at least a requirement to display a registration sticker on the hull. 

In my little tiny state, the money raised from this registration system goes into operating an independent boating agency that not only oversees titling but also uses our money to build docks and launch facilities in all of our water ways. 

It's fashionable to throw rocks at governments and decry fees and "taxation" but at least for us the $$ we spend comes back to us to a pretty good degree. Hope it's the same where you boat. 
Perhaps it's just a matter of finding an employee (or supervisor) that has any experience with your seldom-heard-of question. 
Good luck and fair winds to you.

Apropos of whatever, I have done an overnight ocean delivery on a Jason 35. Really Great (!) design with an easy motion.


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## peikenberry (Apr 26, 2000)

Interesting thread. No insult to those posting here but some of the advice is good, some bad, and some ridiculous. I spent a good portion of my life working as a civilian engineer in the USCG Office of Boating Safety and situations like this were all too frequent. Almost always I told them, the one thing I learned a long time ago while in a Coast Guard Uniform, take it too the top! I spent a good portion of that time talking to people at the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission. You have done well to actually look up the laws, but you need to go one step further. Every state has a person at a high level in the state called a Boating Law Administrator. The name is what it implies. This person is responsible for all boating laws in that state. You need to talk to him (in this case it is a him) Here's a link to his office and to the people that work for him. https://www.nasbla.org/nasblamain/about-nasbla/boating-contacts/pennsylvania
If they can't sort this out then you can try some more outlandish resolution which just may backfire down the road when you decide to sell the boat. Trying to get around the law is never a good idea. It almost always ends up meaning someone has to do a lot of extra paperwork, and costing you money. Best thing is to go to those who know what the rules are and can tell you how to accomplish what you need to do.

My boat isn't homemade but it's old enough it never had a HIN and even though I administered the regulations on HIN's for the whole darn country, I had to go to the BLA in Washington state to get one. Low level functionaries often don't know anything beyond the level of their job. (I know, I have been one, and I was constantly having to intercede with my co-workers to get it right)

By the way the Home Port on a Documented vessel is irrelevant. Now that I am retired I visit Port Townsend in Washington State frequently because it is a big boatbuilding/repair/boating center. There is a sailboat there that always gives me a chuckle. It's home port is Bozeman, Montana. There is no water big enough to accommodate this boat within hundreds of miles of Bozeman. No the Coast Guard doesn't care what homeport you put on the transom as long as your paper work is in order and matches.


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## Higgins51 (Jul 5, 2012)

Some states do not require USCG documented be registered. Fewer and fewer....

A “Jason” ? What is the 12 digit Hull ID. ? I don’t remember if you mentioned the year of the boat. Prior to 1972 the hull identification numbers were spotty at best. Regardless, the federal requirement is that a 12 digit hull identification number be on the starboard transom or is near there about on the starboard side of the hull. 
If Jason does not have a manufactures identification, the hull identification number should be basically three letters with a Z..A home built boat in North Carolina typically would be NCZ and nine more characters ending with the commissioning year. Virginia -VAZ. 
What does the documentation certificate say?

How does Pennsylvania know the boat is home built? In the line for manufacturer you put in Jason and duck. 

And remember my two favorite words for any bureaucracy: “supervisor please“.


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## jwoytek (Aug 22, 2008)

peikenberry said:


> Interesting thread. No insult to those posting here but some of the advice is good, some bad, and some ridiculous.


I honestly expect this and do my best to filter while reading. 



peikenberry said:


> I spent a good portion of my life working as a civilian engineer in the USCG Office of Boating Safety and situations like this were all too frequent. Almost always I told them, the one thing I learned a long time ago while in a Coast Guard Uniform, take it too the top! I spent a good portion of that time talking to people at the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission. You have done well to actually look up the laws, but you need to go one step further. Every state has a person at a high level in the state called a Boating Law Administrator. The name is what it implies. This person is responsible for all boating laws in that state. You need to talk to him (in this case it is a him) Here's a link to his office and to the people that work for him. https://www.nasbla.org/nasblamain/about-nasbla/boating-contacts/pennsylvania


You just rose to near the top on my awesome humans list. This is exactly what I needed to know! It is hard not being able to see up the hierarchy. I didn't know this person existed. Now I have a good path forward, if the office can't resolve this on their own! Regardless, now I think I just want to contact him to see what the real answer is.



peikenberry said:


> If they can't sort this out then you can try some more outlandish resolution which just may backfire down the road when you decide to sell the boat. Trying to get around the law is never a good idea. It almost always ends up meaning someone has to do a lot of extra paperwork, and costing you money. Best thing is to go to those who know what the rules are and can tell you how to accomplish what you need to do.


Definitely uninterested in outlandish resolutions. I want to "pay the man" and be 100% on the up-and-up.



peikenberry said:


> My boat isn't homemade but it's old enough it never had a HIN and even though I administered the regulations on HIN's for the whole darn country, I had to go to the BLA in Washington state to get one. Low level functionaries often don't know anything beyond the level of their job. (I know, I have been one, and I was constantly having to intercede with my co-workers to get it right)


The boat has a hull ID on the CG builder's certification that was part of the initial documentation submission before she was launched. That hull ID is also on the boat itself, of course. For those who have asked, she was completed in 1990 and launched in 1991, so the hull ID was required.

Thank you 400 times!

Jonathan


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## peikenberry (Apr 26, 2000)

Glad to be of help. I used to know all of the BLA's but I have been retired now for 14 years and all the folks I knew have moved on. PA always had their own way of doing things. Used to be, if your boat was documented with the USCG you didn't have to worry about the state. But in the 70's and 80's all that changed. The states want the tax revenue, especially states with a personal property tax, so the rules were changed. Now you have to register your boat with "the state of principle use", which is generally defined as where you keep the boat, but not necessarily. Many states have laws that say if it's in the state for 90 days or more you have to register it. (unless you are active duty military, and in some states it's 60 days) At least one state actually patrols marinas looking for boats with out of state registrations or homeports and if it's there too long they get a nastygram saying they owe money. It's gotten complicated. 

By the way, there is a person in the PA BLA office who handles Titling and Registration. She doesn't actually do it, she oversees the administration of it, but should know what the state laws are.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Interesting.

We have a boat manufactured 1985 in the UK. No hull ID. Always kept it in Delaware, but not registered in De. Wilmington, DE is home port for USCG registration. Although our legal residence is in PA we never have had it in PA waters let alone moored or docked. 

We are now in Caribbean. 

Is there some legal requirement to have a HIN?


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## peikenberry (Apr 26, 2000)

The short answer is Yes. But the it gets more complicated. All recreational boats manufactured or imported into the US for the purpose of sale are required to have a HIN. That's been the law since 1972. By the way it's the same in the UK since they adopted the Recreational Craft Directive sometime in the 90's, but who knows what will happen if they BREXIT? Anyway. The states have also been assigning home built and older vintage or antique boats HINs. So really all you need to do when you return to the states is go to the office that registers boats in Delaware and ask for an HIN. Bring the boat's paperwork. They'll have you fill out a form certifying it is an imported or vintage boat and you'll have to pay a fee. In Delaware it's based on the boats length. Then mount a little plaque on the transom and another somewhere else inside the boat. Delaware isn't a big tax state so I don't know if there will be any taxes. After that, if Delaware is a title state they will send you a new title with the HIN on it. Delaware Boat Registration Information


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

jwoytek said:


> ...Regardless, now I think I just want to contact him to see what the real answer is...


Hold your horses, if it's not too late. I'm not sure I agree with the advice to go straight to the top.

You need ONE PERSON to agree with you and put your paperwork through. If you start at the bottom and work your way up, you get several chances at this. It you go straight to the top, you get ONE CHANCE, and if he rules against you, you're hosed.

I don't know how large and hierarchical an organization PAFBC is. It's possible they're really small (since PA isn't a big boating state, though they are a pretty big lake fishing state), and one of the underlings may go to the top guy anyway, since his cushy office might be right next to their tiny cubicle.  So it's your call.

But I can tell you from decades of corporate experience that sometimes you come to regret going "right to the top" too quickly. Definitely go to the top if you need to, but if you have time, you might do better taking several shots at getting approval at lower levels. The lower level guys might also be able to provide some useful information, like what kind of beer or whiskey the top guy prefers.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

+1

refer to my "play dumb with a different bureaucrat" ploy above


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## jwoytek (Aug 22, 2008)

Today, this issue is (finally) resolved. In the last communication I had talked about here with the PA Fish and Boat Comission representative, I was told that our application materials were being sent to the "law enforcement folks" (my guess is that this went to the BLA office, an office I didn't know existed until another member here clued me in). About a week ago, I got a phone call saying that they were going to be able to process our registration, but only because our boat was a US Coast Guard documented vessel. The rep told me that she was going to process our registration and I should get the stickers soon. She also advised that I should make sure to tell any future buyers, especially if they currently reside in Pennsylvania, that they'll need to mantain the boat as a documented vessel in order to register it in Pennsylvania. A day or so later, I got an email from her saying that the registration had been processed and the stickers and card were on their way out. I wasn't going to trust any of this until I got the card and stickers, and today in the mail was an envelope from the PAFBC with our card and two-year stickers. Yahoo! 

When the rep emailed me, I asked again if she could help me find the location in the PA Code where registration of homemade/"specially-constructed" boats is prohibited. At this point, I was also interested to see why having a documented vessel circumvented that prohibition, mostly just because I was interested. I have not heard back, and I don't think I will at this point. On one hand, I kind of want to contact the BLA office to see if they can help me find the wording that PAFBC is using to claim that restriction. On the other hand, as someone else here mentioned, maybe it's best to let the question go, since I have my paperwork and stickers, and at this point the registration should be a non-issue until I go to sell the boat at some point in the (hopefully quite distant) future. Perhaps it is better not to rock that boat, so-to-speak! 

Thanks to all here who responded, listened to me rant, offered support, and suggested solutions. An especially large thank you to those of you who were able to help fill-in crucial information for me and provide some knowledgeable guidance. Thankfully, I didn't need to take any paths other than "wait and see." 

Later this week or early next week, depending on the weather, I'll be headed up to meet with the previous owner to go over launch prep (and winterization for next autumn), go over the routines he has developed for operation and maintenance of her systems, and take a look at our new slip to figure out dock lines and such. Then, hopefully, she'll launch in another week or two, and I'll have my first experience bringing her into her new slip (mental note: Take off some crazy day, like a Tuesday, and do this around 9:53AM to try to avoid as many onlookers as possible  ). 

Finally, all systems are go! 

jonathan


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Great result.

Their response is likely to save face, ducking admitting it's a flawed process.

The Doc is your title, you have the right to navigate, their own Reg is just to collect fees, any other restraint would need a solid public interest justification.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jwoytek said:


> ....I asked again if she could help me find the location in the PA Code where registration of homemade/"specially-constructed" boats is prohibited......


Hey, congrats on getting through the system.

This question is obviously not answerable, without admitting they were wrong. That is something government never does. There is nothing in it for them, to scratch that itch for you. They're a sole source provider. You can't go elsewhere, so making the client happy isn't a necessary motivation. If there was actually a "prohibition", this mid level bureaucrat would not have taken a risk and made an exception for you. Just know you were right.

Enjoy the new boat. Keep us updated.


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## checkoutmyjunk (8 mo ago)

Hello All, I joined specifically to respond to this post. While my exact situation was a little different, I too was bamboozled by PAFABC on a homemade boat title and this post pulls up near the top of my google searches on the subject. I figured I would contribute my story in hopes it might help another person in this same silly situation.

Back story:
I purchased a pontoon boat with a homemade title, I went to a PAFBC authorized notary and asked them to process the title to be transferred into my name. 6 months later they sent me a letter and told me they would not process the title. Both the agents I called at the home office in Harrisburg and all the notaries never heard of it this homemade title rule. I eventually talked to a higher up and they insisted on not helping me. I requested they prove that there is a law/rule that states they can't transfer a home made title. After a month or two they did produce one, however is sated it only applied for anything titled after 1972 where my title was 1970. They still refused to issue me a title despite being grandfathered. The notary fee, PAFBC registration fees, and they kept the pa sales tax collected. When I asked for it to be refunded, they refused. The only thing they agreed to return was the title, and they suggested I register it in a neighboring state and avoid enforcement officers if I intended using it in PA waters.


Current day:
About two years later, I still feel wronged. I noticed now there is a disclaimer on the webpage explaining they will not transfer homemade titles. There is another stating that they will issue a HIN for homemade boats titled before 1972. 

My next step is to take all my papers over to the Harrisburg office and see if they change their tune when face to face.


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## peikenberry (Apr 26, 2000)

Well, because I had (I'm retired) nothing better to do this morning, I spent several hours going through the PA laws on boat registration and titling. Your boat falls into the category of "specially constructed" boats. As usual only PA calls them that. Every other state that I have researched this calls them homemade or homebuilt. 

*58 Pa. Code § 93.106*
Download
PDF
Current through Register Vol. 52, No. 19, May 7, 2022
Section 93.106 - Specially constructed or reconstructed boats*(a)* The owner of a specially constructed or reconstructed boat shall apply for a certificate of title as required by this subchapter.*(b)* The application for certificate of title shall be accompanied by one of the following:*(1)* The outstanding certificates of title.*(2)* The manufacturer's certificates of origin or certificates of title (salvage/junk), issued for boats, the parts of which were used in construction of the boat, if the boats are no longer operable or able to be registered.*(3)* The bills of sale for the major components of the boat for which no other proof of ownership is available.*(4)* A photograph of the boat, upon the request of the Commission.*(c)* The certificate of title issued for every specially constructed boat and reconstructed boat, as defined in this subchapter, shall clearly describe the boat by type as follows:*(1)* The certificate of title for every specially constructed boat shall describe the make of boat as "specially constructed."*(2)*The certificate of title for every reconstructed boat shall describe the boat by its original make or trade name but shall be coded to designate it as a reconstructed boat.
58 Pa. Code § 93.106

Notice: it says nothing about a homemade title and frankly in my 34 years with the Coast Guard (25 of which were in recreational boat regulation) I have never heard of a home made title. Titles are issued by states. Perhaps you are referring to what the Coast Guard and states call a Manufacturers Certificate of Origin, or Manufacturers Statement of Origin, or sometimes a Builders Certificate. Since the early 2000's these have been required by states, to register and title a boat, and have been required by the Coast Guard since forever to get a Certificate of Documentation. A home built boat builder cannot give you a Certificate of Origin unless they just happen to be registered as a manufacturer with the Coast Guard and have a Manufacturers Identification Code so they can put Hull Identification Numbers on the Boat. If the boat has an HIN, which is unlikely since it is a 1970, before there was a requirement for HINs, then the builder could be identified. But as I said that is unlikely. 

I found nothing in their laws relating to this except a section that essentially says the PA Fish and Boat Commission can make regulations to carry out their responsibilities. 
Here's a link to the PA Laws on the Fish Commission Title 30 You have to wade through a lot of stuff on fishing before you get down to boat titling and registration in Part III Boats and Boating.
*§ 5121. Promulgation.
(a) General rule.--*The commission may promulgate rules and regulations specifically authorized under this part and such other rules and regulations as it deems necessary to administer and enforce the provisions of this part.
This doesn't give them carte blanch to make any rule they want. It is a pretty standard provision in state laws (and Federal Laws) that allows them to propose regulations. But there also has to be a process where the public or legislature has their say. 

Anyway, good luck. I realize it's a PITA but perhaps you should go back to whoever sold the boat, Have them register and title it in that state. The seller can then transfer title to you and give you a bill of sale. Which you will also need to register it in PA. That would all be legal and avoid the hassles you have encountered


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I think with further investigation most people find it just as difficult with homemade trailers and kit cars.

I was under the impression you do not need a title to register a boat in Pennsylvania and even though I am a wooden boat builder I never wanted to get into anything large enough to get into that situation and stayed with small craft


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## checkoutmyjunk (8 mo ago)

peikenberry, I have more for you. I would like to share the law they quoted because it actually calls out "homemade" in the verbiage. I just need to dig it out of my files, more to come. I opened this query up again and they said I needed to talk to the director, of course she was in a meet and would get back to me later that day. Brenda the director never called, it's been 5 days now and when you call them back, its 45-60 min hold time. I bet once they pick the phone up, I will be promised another call back. 

I empathize with the agency, they are very thinly staffed for the number of "customers" they have. Problem is, the make seemingly nonsensical rules like this and offer no reasonable explanation. You should have heard the marine surveyors and USCG folks belly laugh at me when I explained what the PAFBC was asking of me. Several of them suggested I call PAFBC commission back and apologize for whatever I said to upset them this much. 

deniseO30, you don't need to register unpowered craft in PA, you would need to obtain a launch permit if you plan to use a public launch. When I was a kid, I floated past a public launch and the officer was there, he called me over, I complied. When I arrived, he gave me a fine for not having a launch permit, my dad found tried to fight it but payed the fine as it was less effort. Don't be confused about my onion of the LEO's at PAFBC, the last one I dealt with was very reasonable, and gave me a break so my day on the water wasn't ruined.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I know about their little launch permit


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## checkoutmyjunk (8 mo ago)

Well the plot has thickened, as a explained, two years has past since the dispute began and the PAFBC has made a effort to document that transferring homemade boat titles is prohibited. There is a FAQ that can be easily located on their site and when you call their customer service, they are are educated on the matter. See Note 17, also see how 11 adds more confusion The executive assistant I originally spoke with has since moved on and I was put in touch with a Director that has been with the PAFBC since the early 90s. I am choosing to keep her nameless for now, she has been very kind and patient in explaining why homemade titles are a problem for them. 

The director explained that they are following the USCG's direction, and it had nothing to do with PA's laws/rules. She was straight forward with her contact at the USCG and even provided me his direct number. I plan to ask him a few questions too!

She stated the following laws
33cfr 181.23, 33cfr 181.25 and lastly 46USC4307

I am not exactly following the 33cfr laws and how it relates directly to homemade titles, especially since the HINs did not exist until 1972, two years after my boat was registered with the sate of *PA*
*§ 181.23 Hull identification numbers required.*
 
(a) A manufacturer must identify each boat produced or imported with primary and secondary hull identification numbers permanently affixed in accordance with § 181.29 of this subpart.

(b) A person who manufactures or imports a boat for his or her own use and not for sale must obtain the required hull identification number in accordance with the requirements of the issuing authority listed in 33 CFR part 173, Appendix A for the boat's State of principal operation and permanently affix the HIN to the boat in accordance with § 181.29 of this subpart.

(c) No person may assign the same HIN to more than one boat

[USCG-2003-14963, 77 FR 18703, Mar. 28, 2012] 

*§ 181.25 Hull identification number format.*

Each of the hull identification numbers required by § 181.23 must consist of twelve characters, uninterrupted by slashes, hyphens, or spaces, as follows:

(a) The first three characters must be a manufacturer identification code assigned under § 181.31(a) or the importer designation assigned under § 181.31(b).

(b) Characters four through eight must be a serial number assigned by the manufacturer in letters of the English alphabet, or Arabic numerals, or both, except the letters I, O, and Q.

(c) Characters nine and ten must indicate the month and year of certification when a date of certification is required. In all other cases characters nine and ten must indicate the date of manufacture. The date indicated can be no earlier than the date construction or assembly began and no later than the date the boat leaves the place of manufacture or assembly or is imported into the United States for the purposes of sale. Character nine must be indicated using letters of the English alphabet. The first month of the year, January, must be designated by the letter “A”, the second month, February, by the letter “B”, and so on until the last month of the year, December. Character ten must be the last digit of the year of manufacture or certification and must be an Arabic numeral.

(d) Characters eleven and twelve must indicate the model year using Arabic numerals for the last two numbers of the model year such as “82” for 1982 and “83” for 1983.




*The last one is getting close.....!*


*46 U.S. Code § 4307 - Prohibited acts*

U.S. Code
Notes
prev | next
(a)A person may not—
(1)manufacture, construct, assemble, sell or offer for sale, introduce or deliver for introduction into interstate commerce, or import into the United States, a recreational vessel, associated equipment, or component of the vessel or equipment unless—​(A)​(i)it conforms with this chapter or a regulation prescribed under this chapter; and​(ii)it does not contain a defect which has been identified, in any communication to such person by the Secretary or the manufacturer of that vessel, equipment or component, as creating a substantial risk of personal injury to the public; or​
(B)it is intended only for export and is so labeled, tagged, or marked on the recreational vessel or equipment, including any markings on the outside of the container in which it is to be exported;​
(2)affix, attach, or display a seal, document, label, plate, insignia, or other device indicating or suggesting compliance with standards of the United States Government on, in, or in connection with, a recreational vessel or item of associated equipment that is false or misleading; or​(3)fail to provide a notification as required by this chapter or fail to exercise reasonable diligence in carrying out the notification and reporting requirements of this chapter.​(b)A person may not operate a vessel in violation of this chapter or a regulation prescribed under this chapter.​(Pub. L. 98–89, Aug. 26, 1983, 97 Stat. 531; Pub. L. 98–557, § 8(a), Oct. 30, 1984, 98 Stat. 2862.)​

There are few flaws with this:

The law was created in 1983, my title being from 1970 should be grandfathered.
The law states that the vessels has no documented flaws that were communicated, I am failing to see how this subsection give the government the authority to require I obtain a marine survey, one that looks for things like lights, wire types, material used in it's fasteners and is cost prohibitive for a vessel that has been navigating PA's waters without and incident for 52 years.

Back to the director, she was well aware that a pontoon consists of two major components, the toons that provide the floatation and the deck that they are bolted to. Looking at the images I provided for her, she easily identified that the toons were not homemade and eluded that in the past, homemade titles were assigned to boats in the past because it was easier than documenting a boat that was built before HINs were required. She suggested that I look on the boat for serial number, if I find one, I can send her a tracing of it and if she is unable to identify the serial number, she will assign an "unknow" title in place of the homemade tile. Unknow titles imply that it's not homemade but did come from a legitimate boat manufacture. *She also agreed that it was legal for me to use the toon as a dock, and towing it across the river twice a year is an actual hazard, as opposed to affixing a motor to the toon's transom and moving it under it's own power.*


At this point, I am going to closely examine the toons for any numbers that could be passed off for a serial number. I will follow up with more as things develop.


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