# Rethinking Jacklines



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

In light of the recent overboard tragedy, have been rethinking the design of my jacklines which now run bow to stern. In doing a scale drawing, it's clear that it's possible to arrange shorter sections and permanently attached tethers in order to get to the mast without the possibility of being tossed overboard. From mast to bow is another story. One attachment to the deck is not going to keep you aboard no matter how short. One option when on the bow is to have two permanent tethers, just long enough to triangulate up to your harness. 

Another option I see might be to use a spare halyard when getting all the way forward? There will always be either a spinnaker or a jib/inner jib halyard available. If a halyard was marked off to cleat it off at just the right length to clip it on when going mast to bow, it seems it might be a good addition to a deck-attached tether. Has anyone heard of doing this? It seems, at this most dangerous spot, that it would not prevent the deck from dropping out from underfoot but would prevent dropping below a set point relative to the gunwale. Would the shock load of body weight be too much on rigging or you? If you knew you had to be up there in bad weather to fix a jammed furler or something, it would not be unreasonable to have a way to really secure yourself in place.

Of course the best way to avoid going up there in bad weather is good planning but what if.....


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I like the idea of triangulating tethers at the bow. You could have two perminantly attached tethers that meet in the middle with one clip. They would only be long enough to kneel and reach the bow. I think at worst I would be over the side at the cove stripe. There would still be danger in getting from the mast to the bow (clipped in to the fore to aft jackline, of course).


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> Of course the best way to avoid going up there in bad weather is good planning but what if.....


I have hanked-on foresails. I go to the bow a lot. This exposes me to the bow a lot more, however, I am more practiced at making the trip. This is another discussion, but, it seems those with roller furlers may be making this trip more often in adverse conditions.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

My jackline runs from a stern cleat, through the cockpit on the port side to the mast, then makes a sing wrap around the mast before going to a cleat on the port bow. My tether is just 5 feet long and the only time I have to go to the bow is to release the anchor pin, which I could do from the cockpit with the aid of a length of 1/8-inch nylon parachute cord. I have control of my electric windlass from both the cockpit and a bow remote. 

The only time I ever thought I was in serious trouble was when I was tying down the main sail in nasty weather and was hit by a rouge wave of about 15 feet while off the coast of north Florida. I was over the boom tying on the last sail tie when the boat rose to the top of the wave, then suddenly dropped. I slammed on to the boom with my full body weight, the wind was knocked out of me and I thought I was going to lose consciousness. I had some bruised rigs from the event, but that was the only injury. No chance of going overboard, though because I was on that short tether right in the middle of the widest segment of the boat.

Staying off the bow is the reason I installed roller furling. Just not a safe place to be while underway, IMO.

All the best,

Gary


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Working at the mast and boom, there is plenty of width to work with and little chance of going over if on a short enough tether. The most dangerous parts on my boat are getting past the dodger and forward of the mast where there is diminishing deck area, greater pitching distance (being further from the center of the boat) and fewer things to hold onto. I plan to attach two permanent tethers, located such that the end of the radius from those points is short enough to prevent going off the deck to either side. I have plenty of material from the existing jacklines to experiment around with. My J distance is 13' so it should be easy to transition from mast to bow with fixed tethers. I'm hoping the base of my inner forestay will work for a center attachment.

Getting from the cockpit past the dodger, there is NO good handhold anywhere on my boat. I can't think of any good way to be attached short enough at that point when crawling along the narrow deck is the only safe way to get forward. There are times when standing up to get around the dodger is really dangerous. The objective has to be to keep the torso above the gunwale should you get tossed over somehow. If the torso is high enough to get a leg back up over the gunwale, it should be fairly easy to get back up.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

smurphny said:


> ... Another option I see might be to use a spare halyard when getting all the way forward? There will always be either a spinnaker or a jib/inner jib halyard available. If a halyard was marked off to cleat it off at just the right length to clip it on when going mast to bow, it seems it might be a good addition to a deck-attached tether. Has anyone heard of doing this?...


Someone suggested that to me when I was writing an article. Try it. It is horrible.
* it will be slack until you are kneeling.
* it will wrap around the spreaders.
* it won't help when the chute is up, the one time when MOB recovery is most difficult.
* it needs to always be on the correct side of the jib.
* unless you have another tether, you will be swinging WAY out there.
* using 2 tethers while moving is horrible.
* if the boat tacks you are in trouble, pinned between 2 tethers.

My suggestion is that the short tether leg be less than 3'.

Another idea:








The vertical line could be purpose-rigged (mine is) or it could be a halyard secured to the deck, if sufficiently strong. You can remained clipped to the deck jackline with he longer leg, only clipping the vertical line as needed.

Just something to think on.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

pdqaltair said:


> Someone suggested that to me when I was writing an article. Try it. It is horrible.
> * it will be slack until you are kneeling.
> * it will wrap around the spreaders.
> * it won't help when the chute is up, the one time when MOB recovery is most difficult.
> ...


Yeah, I think having the long halyard attached to a harness would likely create problems but I think double fixed tethers up at the bow will work for that work area. I have to measure it out but I believe there can be enough slack with the straps attached where the boat is wider so that movement is possible without allowing an overboard situation. That's the whole point. Being overboard, dangling on a tether is not a situation any of us want to experience.

A 3' tether is great but if attached to a long, stretchy jackline, it's going to allow you to be tossed over the rail dangling with few good options. If systems can be engineered to eliminate the possibility of going over 100% of the time in all possible positions then it's got to be a very high priority, especially for us single-handers.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

smurphny said:


> ... A 3' tether is great but if attached to a long, stretchy jackline, it's going to allow you to be tossed over the rail dangling with few good options. If systems can be engineered to eliminate the possibility of going over 100% of the time in all possible positions then it's got to be a very high priority, especially for us single-handers.


First, my tether is NOT 3'. As you pointed out, that is too long in many locations, and most boats you can use less. Mostly, if I am at the bow and it is rough I am not standing.

A jackline does not have to be stretchy. What material have you chosen? Nylon is too stretchy for boats over ~ 25', and Amsteel starts to make a lot of sense at about 30-35 feet, though the stresses are higher and must be engineered for (hint--it will need to be stronger than the ISAF minimum, since that standard was written around polyester). For myself, I use nylon rope, since the jacklines are far inboard and I like shock absorption (I can fall 10' across the bow and not be near the lifeline), but that is a catamaran thing.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

pdqaltair said:


> First, my tether is NOT 3'. As you pointed out, that is too long in many locations, and most boats you can use less. Mostly, if I am at the bow and it is rough I am not standing.
> 
> A jackline does not have to be stretchy. What material have you chosen? Nylon is too stretchy for boats over ~ 25', and Amsteel starts to make a lot of sense at about 30-35 feet, though the stresses are higher and must be engineered for (hint--it will need to be stronger than the ISAF minimum, since that standard was written around polyester). For myself, I use nylon rope, since the jacklines are far inboard and I like shock absorption (I can fall 10' across the bow and not be near the lifeline), but that is a catamaran thing.


I originally installed long, typical 1" web jacklines up both sides of the boat. They work and make it convenient to stay attached anywhere on deck. They'd keep me attached to the boat. But, I have always thought that the long length had an inherent flaw. The "give" in any material over that length, that close to the gunwale, would be too much. Having individual fixed tethers will be more difficult to use, slower, and probably a pita, having to clip and unclip, but will be more in line with the most important function. My 10' monohull beam presents a different problem than a cat, both in the heeling angle and beam that's available.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Mine is a 1-inch nylon webbing jackline that is stretched tight as a guitar string. And, when I exit the cockpit I open the dodger's center window, which is about 4-feet wide and 4 feet above the cabin top, then exit through the center of my dodger, while all the time tethered to the jackline and no where near the gunwale. Additionally, I have long hand holds on both sides of the cabin top that allow you to hang on using a longer tether until you are with 5 feet of the anchor windlass. I never go there, though, unless something hangs up the anchor chain, which is quite rare. And, usually, by that time, I'm safe and sound in dead calm waters. I still tether, though, even under those conditions. I'm old and something could easily go wrong.

Now, if I were to somehow get knocked overboard, in calm conditions, I have a safety line attached to the swim ladder, and the swim ladder is held in the upright position with a thin strip of plastic ribbon that is easily torn to deploy the ladder if necessary. I get comments from other boaters all the time on the VHF that I'm dragging a line. I just tell them it's a safety line that is barely touching the water. 

Sailing single handed most of the time, safety is of paramount importance. I had a throwable harness with 150 feet of line attached that is common on most sailboats, but sailing alone, who in the Hell would throw it to me? I also wear an inflatable life vest anytime I climb out of the cockpit - just makes good sense.

It's margaretta time,

Gary


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

smurphny said:


> I originally installed long, typical 1" web jacklines up both sides of the boat. They work and make it convenient to stay attached anywhere on deck. They'd keep me attached to the boat. But, I have always thought that the long length had an inherent flaw. The "give" in any material over that length, that close to the gunwale, would be too much. Having individual fixed tethers will be more difficult to use, slower, and probably a pita, having to clip and unclip, but will be more in line with the most important function. My 10' monohull beam presents a different problem than a cat, both in the heeling angle and beam that's available.


I think you would be very surprised at how little "give" Amsteel jacklines have. A few inches on that size boat. I speak "monohull" too, which is why I suggested Amsteel.

The point, of course, is that every boat is different and that one size doesn't fit all.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

travlineasy said:


> Mine is a 1-inch nylon webbing jackline that is stretched tight as a guitar string. And, when I exit the cockpit I open the dodger's center window, which is about 4-feet wide and 4 feet above the cabin top, then exit through the center of my dodger, while all the time tethered to the jackline and no where near the gunwale. Additionally, I have long hand holds on both sides of the cabin top that allow you to hang on using a longer tether until you are with 5 feet of the anchor windlass. I never go there, though, unless something hangs up the anchor chain, which is quite rare. And, usually, by that time, I'm safe and sound in dead calm waters. I still tether, though, even under those conditions. I'm old and something could easily go wrong.
> 
> Now, if I were to somehow get knocked overboard, in calm conditions, I have a safety line attached to the swim ladder, and the swim ladder is held in the upright position with a thin strip of plastic ribbon that is easily torn to deploy the ladder if necessary. I get comments from other boaters all the time on the VHF that I'm dragging a line. I just tell them it's a safety line that is barely touching the water.
> 
> ...


I did the same thing with a telescoping ladder on the transom that can be pulled down from the water. Getting up a ladder on the stern could be a tough mission in a big sea though. That's something I don't want to practice

Interesting that you can get out through the center window. That is a great idea. It doesn't seem possible the way my boat is configured. I will check that out though to see if there is some way.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

pdqaltair said:


> I think you would be very surprised at how little "give" Amsteel jacklines have. A few inches on that size boat. I speak "monohull" too, which is why I suggested Amsteel.
> 
> The point, of course, is that every boat is different and that one size doesn't fit all.


Amsteel surely has a lot less stretch than nylon flat webbing. I replaced my lifelines, main halyard, and inner jib halyard with Amsteel and love the stuff. If I wind up using a short center section of jackline, it would be easier to splice in a piece of Amsteel than sew up a new nylon section so I may try it as I have some aboard. The only thing I don't like about round rope is the obvious problem of it rolling underfoot although 3/8" Amsteel is fairly soft. Having something rolling underfoot right there under the boom would not be good at all, especially in the reefing or changing to a trysail process. It may also be a trip hazard.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

APS makes Amsteel core lines with nylon webbing as a cover. 1/4" Amsteel is what you need, not 3/8".

APS Custom Jacklines - Webbing over Dyneema

I'm sure you can fabricate your own.

Underfoot is a problem. That is one reason mine are off the deck, along the cabin edge. This is also the reason I can use rope.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> Of course the best way to avoid going up there in bad weather is good planning but what if.....


Yup, so often we seem to draw the wrong lessons from tragedies like the one that befell Sailing Jackson... These are almost always the result of a series of issues of cascading failures, and that appears to have begun with a problem with his furler - without which, it sounds like he probably would not have been up there to begin with...

Seems to me at some point, we need to move beyond this neverending obsession and over-analysis of jacklines and tethers, and embrace the simple concept that what is most likely to keep you on the boat, is that few inches of grey matter that resides between our ears... I'd much rather sail with anyone who never, _EVER_ sets foot out of the cockpit without reminding himself that the edge of the deck rightfully represents the edge of a 1,000 foot cliff, and the lifelines are charged with 600V of electricity, than one who believes he has configured the "Ultimate Tether/Jackline System"...

;-)

I believe we need to stop thinking of tethers as something that will _PREVENT_ you from going overboard at all points on a boat the size of yours. That's what your _brain_, and to a great extent your _hands_, are there for, after all... The primary function of a tether should be to simply keep you attached to the boat. Chances are any tether that will prevent you from falling overboard at the bow of a 30-footer like mine, is gonna also prevent you from performing the chore - whether it be setting a spinnaker, or whatever - that you went up there to begin with...

For what seems the unpteenth time since I joined Sailnet ;-) I will reiterate my belief that for most boats under 35-40 feet, a series of strategically placed fixed tethers that can be shortened up after arriving at the mast of other workstation, are the only way to go...

And, if your dodger is creating a situation where you are vulnerable exiting/entering the cockpit, you really need to remedy that, there's no excuse for something like a dodger to compromise your safety on deck... And on boats of a smaller size where a hard dodger is not really a great option, I think a sturdy, rigid windshield is a far better alternative than a dodger which is not necessary most of the time, anyway...


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

smurphny said:


> Getting up a ladder on the stern could be a tough mission in a big sea though. That's something I don't want to practice


It will be easier though than swimming 200 miles to the nearest land. I believe that my transom ladder is fundamental to survival because with me at 115kgs, my wife is never going to get me back on board. It's down to me or down to the bottom. Yes the transom heaves in a big sea but it isn't a snappy movement and if you can get a hand on the ladder and if you're strong enough to hold on then the boat will lift you when it goes up and you can climb the ladder when it's back in the water.

This is theory though - I've tried it in pretty bumpy conditions where I live with easy success but have never had to try it in a giant sea.

Still, I think the alternatives to trying this are less attractive.

As far as jacklines go, I have migrated to eye bolts from cockpit to mast, a stout nylon strap from mast to windlass and solid rails at a height of 600mm from the cockpit all the way around the aft deck.


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## OldEagle (Nov 16, 2013)

> These are almost always the result of a series of issues of cascading failures


This is a point that cannot be over-emphasized--and it's the reason for extra thought--not narrowing concentration--as things go bad...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> Yup, so often we seem to draw the wrong lessons from tragedies like the one that befell Sailing Jackson... These are almost always the result of a series of issues of cascading failures, and that appears to have begun with a problem with his furler - without which, it sounds like he probably would not have been up there to begin with...
> 
> Seems to me at some point, we need to move beyond this neverending obsession and over-analysis of jacklines and tethers, and embrace the simple concept that what is most likely to keep you on the boat, is that few inches of grey matter that resides between our ears... I'd much rather sail with anyone who never, _EVER_ sets foot out of the cockpit without reminding himself that the edge of the deck rightfully represents the edge of a 1,000 foot cliff, and the lifelines are charged with 600V of electricity, than one who believes he has configured the "Ultimate Tether/Jackline System"...
> 
> ...


Furlers seem to be a primary reason for sailors being up there when they shouldn't be but I guess it's a toss-up between a jammed furler and gathering in a hanked jib. All the more reason to shorten sail before the stresses on things start to cause problems.

The dodger problem on my boat (and many others I've seen) is a real one. There is an expanse of deck to transit, probably 4' with no handhold and only about 10" of deck underfoot. As Gramps used to say, "One hand to yourself, one to the ship." In that section the "ship" part is not possible. I've though of constructing a sturdy arch at the back side of the dodger to provide a sure handhold when moving forward. It would also be a good attachment point for a high jackline.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Omatako said:


> It will be easier though than swimming 200 miles to the nearest land. I believe that my transom ladder is fundamental to survival because with me at 115kgs, my wife is never going to get me back on board. It's down to me or down to the bottom. Yes the transom heaves in a big sea but it isn't a snappy movement and if you can get a hand on the ladder and if you're strong enough to hold on then the boat will lift you when it goes up and you can climb the ladder when it's back in the water.
> 
> This is theory though - I've tried it in pretty bumpy conditions where I live with easy success but have never had to try it in a giant sea.
> 
> ...


For sure. The ladder would be a challenge but I'd get up it if was necessary. It seems to me that the "eyebolt" short section layout is the way to go.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I've heard many discussions in the climbing community that go just like this one above, centered around Jon Eisberg's comments:

"Climbers are too dependent on ropes. They should learn without them."

"You must learn to keep the lid on. When things get tense, substitute time for protection."

"Solo climbing depends on complete mastery of mind."

"In the old days we understood that the leader could not fall."

While there is truth in it, it is also more than 50% baloney. Yes, I've scraped up climbers that though more gear could make them safe, and I've lost friends that enjoy soloing way above the deck without the encumbrance of safety gear. The thing is, the climbers with gear outnumber the serious soloists thousands to one and thus are clearly, as a group, much safer. Implying we should accept "good enough" for jacklines and just be careful is impatient at best and misleading at worst.

a. I'm concerned that folks use nylon. I a real push, the kind that could through you over board, even the per-tensioned nylon will stretch enough to let you overboard on all but the smallest boats. Have you never watched how webbing stretches under the mere body weight of a slackliner?

b. Tethers do not have to be 3'/6'. They should be custom length to fit the boat. Work station tethers can be just the right length. You should be able to lean against them as a third hand.

c. You need to practice with tethers in fair weather. They should be so dialed in that you never need to unclip because of a tangle or really, think about them at all. If this is not the case, practice, find the flaws, and fix them. If they are in the way, they are wrong.

d. A agree with the philosophy that the edge of the boat should be thought of as a cliff. However, the notion that the lifelines cannot be touched or used for balance is a pure load of BS. If they are that fragile, they require upgrading.

e. Every sailor should take a class in climbing, or at least hang out at the local practice crag and learn. It will help them understand the dynamics of a fall and what safety systems require. As a group, they scare me when I hear them discuss climbing the mast or jacklines. Climbers depend on systems that are not just pretty good, but in fact 100% safe. And I do mean 100%, when I consider the thousands of falls I've taken (most experienced climbers have taken at least that many on top rope).


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

pdqaltair said:


> I've heard many discussions in the climbing community that go just like this one above, centered around Jon Eisberg's comments:
> 
> "Climbers are too dependent on ropes. They should learn without them."
> 
> ...


Some good points. I agree that systems have to be engineered for each boat, each work station and each transition from one spot to the next. If designed well, you should be able to depend on the equipment and trust it.

As far as lifelines go, unless 36" high metal, I don't think they should be used regularly for handholds. Stanchions transmit too much leverage down to the base, inviting leaks and bending if overstressed. They are better left as a last resort. Most are too short to be effective anyway and probably would only serve to launch you head-first over that 1000' cliff if thrown against them


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

smurphny said:


> Some good points. I agree that systems have to be engineered for each boat, each work station and each transition from one spot to the next. If designed well, you should be able to depend on the equipment and trust it.
> 
> ... Most are too short to be effective anyway and probably would only serve to launch you head-first over that 1000' cliff if thrown against them


Actually, this is mostly not true if you use them only to pull UP against, pressing your feet to the deck, and not to the side. jacklines can be used the same way. This requires learning a new way.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

^Surprised you use that old dinosaur jim buoy harness..looks like the weak link...


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

They may be dinosaurs, but they still work very well and you could pick up a building with one.

All the best,

Gary


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

aeventyr60 said:


> ^Surprised you use that old dinosaur jim buoy harness..looks like the weak link...


Yes, it might seem so, but...

* The harness failed at over 3000 pounds in testing. I'd break ribs long before that. Any fall restraint system that applies over 1200 pounds in a full body harness exceeds UIAA, OSHA, and Mil design specs. The only reason for the 5000 pound number is that is used in all climbing standards, and because standard tethers can exert that much force... which is deadly.
* I use dynamic tethers that have been fully tested to breaking strength (as part of a Practical Sailor research project). It is impossible, under any scenario including a fall factor one drop, to exceed 800 pounds impact force (tested), and falls across the deck even anchored to a fixed point, are only a few hundred pounds. No commercially available sailing tether can claim less than 2000 pounds. Many commercial industrial climbing tethers are designed this way.
* No jackline system in common use can sustain more than about 1500 pounds without failure (tight rope effect).

So in fact it is not the weak link. The weak link in modern sailing fall arrest systems is the low-stretch nylon webbing in the tether. That is the root cause of all reported failures. Even the new ISO tether requirement is generations behind UIAA and OSHA. Research it.

I could get new harnesses, but frankly I don't see the merit, since these can hold 5 times more than they will ever see. My point is that you need to look at the WHOLE system, not just single items. You will see that my system is designed to be very soft, to protect my old body. It won't work for every boat, unless designed for that boat.

----

We are, of course, far off the point. The point is that the tether is <3', that I cannot go over the rail, and that I am using the jackline and lifeline in a manner that is safe and does not abuse them. I've done this for many years and have no leaks or bent stanchions. This works for the 80+ year old parents.

The other tether leg is closer to 8', which combined with an inboard jackline location, works for my boat.

If only sailing safety equipment companies took design and testing seriously...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

pdqaltair said:


> Actually, this is mostly not true if you use them only to pull UP against, pressing your feet to the deck, and not to the side. jacklines can be used the same way. This requires learning a new way.


It might be nice in theory to plan exactly how to put pressure on lifelines but the reality in a pitching sea with the boat heeled over might be quite different. I wouldn't want to get used to even thinking about depending upon them.

Gary's idea about crawling out the front of the dodger has really got me thinking about making that my main route in any kind of rough sea until I can solve the dodger handhold issue. With the boards in and hatch cover slid closed, I may well be able to do that. Definitely will give it a try as well as making up a fixed tether of exactly the right length, fixed just forward of the dodger to clip onto while moving around up to a second fixed tether.

I also have a harness like that but have recently started using a PFD/harness combo at times. The old harnesses are the most comfortable and a LOT more comfortable than the PFD/harness.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

pdqaltair said:


> I've heard many discussions in the climbing community that go just like this one above, centered around Jon Eisberg's comments:
> 
> "Climbers are too dependent on ropes. They should learn without them."
> 
> ...


I have often seen the comparison between climbing stuff and boating stuff and I can't recall seeing one element that to me defines the difference. The recent Everest event excluded, it is rare that a mountain jumps around under the climbers feet. For sailors, this is standard, only severity and direction are infinitely variable and it is this that makes us vulnerable. If my boat was as steady as a mountain, I would lighten it by discarding all my jacklines and harnesses.
:laugh
It would be educational to see a solo climber working on a cliff face through an earth quake.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

smurphny said:


> It might be nice in theory to plan exactly how to put pressure on lifelines but the reality in a pitching sea with the boat heeled over might be quite different. I wouldn't want to get used to even thinking about depending upon them.


My boat doesn't heel. :wink


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

pdqaltair said:


> My boat doesn't heel. :wink


I know. Didn't want to start a cat vs mono discussion


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

You are talking about nylon stretching, ideally what should the jack lines and the teather be made out of? BTW my boats stanchions were way to short, they have now been extended almost hip high and all rebedded with substantial backing plates.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

smurphny said:


> I know. Didn't want to start a cat vs mono discussion


Yeah, that will take us off topic.

But it is about differences, not better/worse:

Cats...
* have a quicker vertical motion. that is why pulling up helps.
* are more prone to throw you forward if you stuff a wave, so the jackline must stop well before the bow.
* the falls across the bow are much longer, so you need stretch.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

jerryrlitton said:


> You are talking about nylon stretching, ideally what should the jack lines and the teather be made out of? BTW my boats stanchions were way to short, they have now been extended almost hip high and all rebedded with substantial backing plates.


I have an article on this topic coming out in PS in the fall.

Tethers. Nylon, because you need some stretch when you are clipped to a fixed point (when you are on the jackline, the jackline stretch provides most of the stretch, even if it is SS). The actual stretch will be an inch most of the time and 6-8 inches in a very severe impact.

Jacklines. Depends on the size of the boat. Less than 25 feet (jackline 15-18 feet) nylon webbing is fine. The limited stretch keep the stress on the deck fittings down and is only a foot or 2. Up to 35 feet polyester works well. Above 35 feet you are best off with Dyneema, to control stretch (1/4"); forces on the anchors become huge, but you can design for that. SS can work >40' too, but bear in mind that stretch is nil, 1/4" wire is required, and it will be weird under foot. On the other hand, it has the major advantage that they can be left set 24/7. SS jacklines require nylon tethers (older tethers may not meet the new ISO drop test).

Personally, I use oversize rope rigged out from underfoot (won't work on all boats) because I consider being able to leave them rigged vital.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

I use 3/8" (10 mm) Dyneema single braid. I has very little stretch, compresses underfoot (no rolling) and with Brummell splices at either end that attach to my bow cleats and stern cleats. There is no other hardware involved. I cross them aft of the mast to keep them inboard on our 41' Bristol. I do need to stop at the mast and either cross over or switch lines, its quicker to cross over but the cross helps to keep the line inboard. I use a double 3' lanyard.
The Dyneema is very wear and UV resistant, more so than Nylon. We have used this for several years and over 5,000 miles and it still looks to be in excellent shape.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

windnrock said:


> I use 3/8" (10 mm) Dyneema single braid. I has very little stretch, compresses underfoot (no rolling) and with Brummell splices at either end that attach to my bow cleats and stern cleats. There is no other hardware involved. I cross them aft of the mast to keep them inboard on our 41' Bristol. I do need to stop at the mast and either cross over or switch lines, its quicker to cross over but the cross helps to keep the line inboard. I use a double 3' lanyard.
> The Dyneema is very wear and UV resistant, more so than Nylon. We have used this for several years and over 5,000 miles and it still looks to be in excellent shape.


Good to know you had success with the Dyneema and that it's not rolly underfoot. I have quite a few feet of 3/8" left over from doing my main halyard so may use it for part of the new system.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

s


smurphny said:


> *Furlers seem to be a primary reason for sailors being up there when they shouldn't be* but I guess it's a toss-up between a jammed furler and gathering in a hanked jib.


_WRONG..._ Everyone knows the most common reason kroozers venture out on deck is to re-secure items like jerry cans, kayaks and Porta-Botes lashed to the lifelines, and so on... ;-)

Modern furling systems of top quality - _when properly installed_ - can be remarkably trouble free, and pretty close to bulletproof...

Again, for me the real tragedy of Sailing Jackson's loss has nothing to do with jackline or tethers.. Rather, it is that there should have been no reason whatsoever for him to have had to deal with an 'issue' with a headsail furler on a brand new boat costing roughly $300K... My Profurl is going on 18 years old now - with one rebuild prior to swapping out the drum with a replacement last winter - and I have never once had it "jam"...



smurphny said:


> The dodger problem on my boat (and many others I've seen) is a real one. There is an expanse of deck to transit, probably 4' with no handhold and only about 10" of deck underfoot. As Gramps used to say, "One hand to yourself, one to the ship." In that section the "ship" part is not possible. I've though of constructing a sturdy arch at the back side of the dodger to provide a sure handhold when moving forward. It would also be a good attachment point for a high jackline.


Seriously, you really need to do something about that... Don't you at least have a horizontal grab rail connecting the forward and aft bars of the dodger on each side? That's a very simple fix, certainly better than nothing...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> I've heard many discussions in the climbing community that go just like this one above, centered around Jon Eisberg's comments:
> 
> "Climbers are too dependent on ropes. They should learn without them."
> 
> ...


I'm not suggesting anything of the sort... My point is simply that staying aboard your boat has more to do with one's wits and experience, than a reliance upon certain gear... I've configured the best system for me on my little boat, but I still believe that if I ever go overboard, it will be due to something stupid on my part, and not due to some failure of my jackline/tether arrangement...

;-)



pdqaltair said:


> d. A agree with the philosophy that the edge of the boat should be thought of as a cliff. However, the notion that the lifelines cannot be touched or used for balance is a pure load of BS. If they are that fragile, they require upgrading.


We'll agree to disagree on that... Few things make my more nervous than seeing people relying on lifelines to aid them in moving about on deck... It generally indicates either poor deck ergonomics, where there is nothing better to grab on to, or a lack of dexterity or confidence in their movements... Sorry, I just would rather not sail with someone who's always grabbing onto lifelines, I'll go with anyone who's not too proud to crawl on all fours, instead...



Few bits of deck gear are more abused, from people using them to hoist themselves aboard from a floating dock, to the most egregious abuse of hanging fenders from them... All those things only serve to potentially weaken them further before the moment they might really be called upon to do their duty...

I doubt anyone would consider my lifelines to be "fragile"... They're made from Dyform, for starters ;-) All my stanchion bases were upgraded to those from Schaefer from the crappy originals used by Allied... I simply think I'm safer going with a sort of subconscious mindset that they're not really there at all...

;-)


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> _WRONG..._ Everyone knows the most common reason kroozers venture out on deck is to re-secure items like jerry cans, kayaks and Porta-Botes lashed to the lifelines, and so on... ;-)


Agreed. I've secured anchors that were "working", made many trips to the mast to reef, set and doused chutes, wandered up there just to enjoy the view, and changed head sails (pulled the sail down to change for a smaller one) but never to untangle a furler.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Few things make my more nervous than seeing people relying on lifelines to aid them in moving about on deck... It generally indicates either poor deck ergonomics, where there is nothing better to grab on to, or a lack of dexterity or confidence in their movements... Sorry, I just would rather not sail with someone who's always grabbing onto lifelines, I'll go with anyone who's not too proud to crawl on all fours, instead...


I'll crawl if I need to. I like knee pads.

My point was that broad statements (never touch the lifelines) are seldom defensible, and my boat is very different from yours. What is more important is that sailors understand the rigging, how to move, and the dynamics. For example, every poster that described their systems said the jackline went to the bow cleats. On a catamaran that is simply wrong (flying forward is a problem). So you need to consider all things.


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## Adele-H (Nov 18, 2012)

Getting back on the boat could be as simple as having big knots or loops in your tether. (This requires that you can lift your body weight hand over hand.) Providing that the jackline is not overhanging the gunwales when stretched.
My jack lines run inside the shrouds on both sides of the boat. From bow to stern, me, always clipped in to windward.
If one was to fall over board to windward, tethered from anywhere, they would stop "sliding" aft at the first stanchion encountered, the ladder on the stern would feel as far as the nearest landmass. For me if the fall is on the bow to leeward, I would stop at the shrouds, but then the toerail would be closer to the water...
as a climber, it is possible to ascend a rope using "soft" ascenders, basically just loops of smaller diameter rope or sling.
Klemheist - How to tie a Klemheist Knot
it does take practice, but it is possible. best way to learn is to find a rockgym near you and ask for this technique to be shown to you. It is used in self rescue at the cliffs, some of that training can be applied to boating.
A couple of these rigged up on your tether might just be the answer to getting back aboard, provided you didn't knock yourself out on the way in.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

I have spent a good portion of my life climbing, on several continents, and there is virtually nothing in common with being on deck in a storm. Getting slammed with green water on a moving deck is a very different animal. Jacklines are a last defense and we stay secured even when in the cockpit at sea or alone on watch. Yes, there should be handholds everywhere but if you need to grab the rail "lifeline" grab it! Depending on how much or where you sail, stuff will break, usually under heavy loads and in poor conditions. It would be wonderful to spend the entire trip in the comfort of the dodger but you do need to go out. In stormy conditions it is critical to keep an eye on equipment and lines, check for chafe and tighten lashing. We will disappoint some here, we hang our fenders from the (Dyneema) rail, if it can't take that, I need to replace them. Making sure your attachment points can take the load is critical. I have seen jacklines attached to stanchions, small pad eyes that were mounted with screws and even a plastic rod holder! One only needs to consider the people who were swept away when the 6,000 lb. WL webbing on their tether failed.

"Never get out of the boat!" Willard


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

Adele-H said:


> Getting back on the boat could be as simple as having big knots or loops in your tether. (This requires that you can lift your body weight hand over hand.) Providing that the jackline is not overhanging the gunwales when stretched.
> My jack lines run inside the shrouds on both sides of the boat. From bow to stern, me, always clipped in to windward.
> If one was to fall over board to windward, tethered from anywhere, they would stop "sliding" aft at the first stanchion encountered, the ladder on the stern would feel as far as the nearest landmass. For me if the fall is on the bow to leeward, I would stop at the shrouds, but then the toerail would be closer to the water...
> as a climber, it is possible to ascend a rope using "soft" ascenders, basically just loops of smaller diameter rope or sling.
> ...


This might work if you are in really good shape, the boat is going real slow and the weather is calm. Dragging alongside the boat in rough seas, maybe not so much. Better to have long rope ladders that can be deployed as well as a hoist for someone who is unconscious. 
Prussic knots are great for a lot of things and easy to employ. We keep several loops at the pedestal ready for use. Great for removing stress from a bound up winch or a line that needs to be moved. It is also a good safety when going up the mast, put it on a unused, secured halyard and slide it up and down with you.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Adele-H said:


> Getting back on the boat could be as simple as having big knots or loops in your tether. (This requires that you can lift your body weight hand over hand.)


I dunno, sounds needlessly complex, to me... 

More things to get caught, snagged, or tangled up in... It would certainly defeat the simplicity and utility of the fixed tethers I've come to favor, that can be easily and quickly shortened up when I get to where I want to be, trying to do that with a tether already having a series of loops and knots would be a mess, a major violation of my KISS principle when it comes to stuff like this... Not saying it might not work for you, on your boat, just that such an arrangement would definitely present a greater danger to a klutz like me...

;-)



windnrock said:


> We will disappoint some here, we hang our fenders from the (Dyneema) rail, if it can't take that, I need to replace them. Making sure your attachment points can take the load is critical.


Well, if you're routinely hanging fenders from lifelines, it's not integrity of the lifelines themselves you need to be concerned about... The sort of 'working' that fenders and other weights on lifelines can induce is not doing your stanchion bases, the deck beneath them, and the bedding between them any favors...

There's one advantage to sailing a Brent Boat, for sure...

;-)


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

windnrock said:


> One only needs to consider the people who were swept away when the 6,000 lb. WL webbing on their tether failed.


a. I doubt the tethers tested to 1/2 of 6000 pounds (in each case there were defects in the stitching or other construction, and in at least one case they tested the splice on the other end and it failed far below spec.).

b. That would be the breaking strength, not the WL.

c. They didn't break because they were weak or because the fall was that extreme. They broke because there was no shock absorption (the reports state this). All of these failures were before ISO changed the spec to include a drop test. It is easy to break a polyester tether in a drop.

d. None of the failures were on jacklines. They were from fixed points with no stretch.

e. The webbing did not fail, the stitching did, unless I am mistaken.

Climbers have broken 5000-pound Dyneema tethers with falls as short as 2 feet. The failures are due to a basic misunderstanding of design, not actual severity. ISO finally saw this and changed the rule.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

I apreciate all the discussion. I have recently realized that even with my inland sailing in Puget Sound, I am taking unnecessary risks when I single hand. I have decided that I need to setup, and use regularly, a tether and jackline system. It is helpful to read all your thought. 

Like so many discussions here, whether it be about boat type, anchors, PDFs, or bottom paint, ANY boat, anchor, PFD, or bottom paint is better than none. I decided that I will first start with the system that I can create right away, and then worry about improving it over time rather than not doing anything until I figure out the "perfect" system.

I have a Catalina 400 and like many the biggest problem is the bow when setting a spinnaker solo. Dynema sounds like a good option.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> s
> 
> _WRONG..._ Everyone knows the most common reason kroozers venture out on deck is to re-secure items like jerry cans, kayaks and Porta-Botes lashed to the lifelines, and so on... ;-)
> 
> ...


I know it. I wind up crawling along the really narrow deck right there. The dodger frame has no horizontal bar going fwd/aft. One way or another, it's on the list to fix before next fall. The thing with furlers seems to be that if someone tries to haul the sail in when there's still too much wind in the sail really yarning back on the line it's like to bury the coil and jam. Some practice is needed in rolling it up to keep tension on it so the coils are not loose. I find I need to balance the furler line and the sheet which takes two hands and a good feel for how its coiling up, often needing to back off and recoil if I sense a loose coil. Would be nice if they had a spool like a bait casting reel that evenly coiled the line.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

dhays said:


> I apreciate all the discussion. I have recently realized that even with my inland sailing in Puget Sound, I am taking unnecessary risks when I single hand. I have decided that I need to setup, and use regularly, a tether and jackline system. It is helpful to read all your thought.
> 
> Like so many discussions here, whether it be about boat type, anchors, PDFs, or bottom paint, ANY boat, anchor, PFD, or bottom paint is better than none. I decided that I will first start with the system that I can create right away, and then worry about improving it over time rather than not doing anything until I figure out the "perfect" system.
> 
> I have a Catalina 400 and like many the biggest problem is the bow when setting a spinnaker solo. Dynema sounds like a good option.


Kudos to you for setting a spinnaker alone! I have yet to get brave enough to try that. I did exactly as you suggest, just running my jacklines bow to stern to get it done when first rigging the boat. Now I need to do it again. Maybe think it out and do it once after reading all the good suggestions here.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

"Well, if you're routinely hanging fenders from lifelines, it's not integrity of the lifelines themselves you need to be concerned about... The sort of 'working' that fenders and other weights on lifelines can induce is not doing your stanchion bases, the deck beneath them, and the bedding between them any favors... "

We do spend very little time with fenders out. The fenders hanging on the lines don't seem to move, or "work our stanchions at all. The deck at the mounts is solid. I think if we were at a marina for a while we might do something different.
@pdqaltair - "Climbers have broken 5000-pound Dyneema tethers with falls as short as 2 feet. The failures are due to a basic misunderstanding of design, not actual severity. ISO finally saw this and changed the rule." Do you have a reference for this? I am interested in reading it.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

smurphny said:


> The thing with furlers seems to be that if someone tries to haul the sail in when there's still too much wind in the sail really yarning back on the line it's like to bury the coil and jam.


We try to make the out feed as tight as possible, using the sheet to firmly pull the sail if wind is lighter. Getting tight, even wraps on the drum as we deploy either headsail. Like you said its like line on a reel. You won't get the bind if the coils underneath are tight.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I've often wondered why designers of roller furling systems didn't incorporate the same system for maintaining the line on the drum that trailer boat winch designers used? It's nothing more than a piece of stainless, spring steel that minds the line/cable as it is played out and reeled in. Nothing complex, just a neat, pretty much fail-proof design. Might have to make one for my system. Hmmmm!

Gary


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

travlineasy said:


> I've often wondered why designers of roller furling systems didn't incorporate the same system for maintaining the line on the drum that trailer boat winch designers used? It's nothing more than a piece of stainless, spring steel that minds the line/cable as it is played out and reeled in. Nothing complex, just a neat, pretty much fail-proof design. Might have to make one for my system. Hmmmm!
> 
> Gary


I think you're right. The basic design of furler systems seems to be questionable. Maybe the companies that make them and charge ridiculous prices should get in touch with fishing reel engineers and ask how to make line spool evenly. Even the cheapest fishing reels have line control mechanisms on some kinds of reels. Some sort of mechanism to move the line up and down on the spool is needed. Depending on the line to magically level on its own is a flawed idea. It invites a loop to slip down because the loops pile up too high before falling off, causing a loose spot which in turn causes a jam.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

smurphny said:


> The thing with furlers seems to be that if someone tries to haul the sail in when there's still too much wind in the sail really yarning back on the line it's like to bury the coil and jam. Some practice is needed in rolling it up to keep tension on it so the coils are not loose. I find I need to balance the furler line and the sheet which takes two hands and a good feel for how its coiling up, often needing to back off and recoil if I sense a loose coil. Would be nice if they had a spool like a bait casting reel that evenly coiled the line.


I am sure that you have tried all sorts of things to help with this. Both my headsail and my main furl. I have found that taking a lose wrap with the sheet around a winch while I'm furling the genoa gives just enough tension to let it furl properly. I so the same with the main outhaul when furling it.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

smurphny said:


> Kudos to you for setting a spinnaker alone! I have yet to get brave enough to try that. I did exactly as you suggest, just running my jacklines bow to stern to get it done when first rigging the boat. Now I need to do it again. Maybe think it out and do it once after reading all the good suggestions here.[/QUOT
> 
> It is not as big a deal as it may sound. I have an asymmetric, ATN sock, and an autopilot. It is a lightweight sail and I only fly it in under 12-15 knots of wind even with a crew. I sail in inland waters that normally don't build much of a sea. The only reason I would fall overboard is by making a misstep or not noticing that large wake kicked up by a power cruiser or commercial ship.
> 
> Still, working on the foredeck without a tether when sailing alone, as I have been doing, is simply stupid. I always have a PFD, but the waters here are cold enough that I would expire shortly after watching my sailboat beach itself if I ever went overboard.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

While we are on the single handing kites detour... Deploying a kite from a sock singlehanded is (relatively) easy. The take-downs in less than optimum conditions, not so. What I found helpful is splicing a Harken ratchet block on a snap shackle onto the sock control line. To sock the kite, I snap the shackle onto a forepeak pad eye and pull through the block to sock. The ratchets keep the sock from "zippering" and pulling up from the block gives you a measure of stability on a rolling deck.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

GeorgeB said:


> While we are on the single handing kites detour... Deploying a kite from a sock singlehanded is (relatively) easy. The take-downs in less than optimum conditions, not so. What I found helpful is splicing a Harken ratchet block on a snap shackle onto the sock control line. To sock the kite, I snap the shackle onto a forepeak pad eye and pull through the block to sock. The ratchets keep the sock from "zippering" and pulling up from the block gives you a measure of stability on a rolling deck.


George,

I agree with you. Initially I was going to do just that when I rigged my spinnaker, but the cost of a ratchet snatch block seemed a bit steep. I still want to do it, I just need to bite the bullet and pay the money for a block.

Back to jacklines, one reason I want to practice with the tether/jackline combination is to make sure that I can automatically keep the genoa sheets, spinnaker sheets, spinnaker halyard, ATN control line, tacker downhaul, spinnaker sailbag, AND the tether and jacklines from getting hopelessly tangled.

I admit to not infrequently getting a line crossed now even without the safety gear.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Because our local conditions in SF Bay and outside the Gate can be boisterous at times, it was easy for me to rationalize the ratchet block. A problem with routing a jackline is there is always some line that has to cross over it. I mitigate the problem by running a short jackline down the center of the cockpit and the main jacks from mooring cleat to cleat. You do have to re clip to the main jack (in the vicinity of the dodger), but you are still inside the cockpit when doing so. I usually go forward on the windward side and am only on the leeward side when I have to tend to things like leech cords, changing sheets and the like.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

dhays said:


> smurphny said:
> 
> 
> > Kudos to you for setting a spinnaker alone! I have yet to get brave enough to try that. I did exactly as you suggest, just running my jacklines bow to stern to get it done when first rigging the boat. Now I need to do it again. Maybe think it out and do it once after reading all the good suggestions here.[/QUOT
> ...


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

We use a couple of counter clockwise turns on one of our secondary winches with the furler line to maintain tension as we deploy the sail. I spent some time making sure the feed into the drum was centered and far enough off to feed right. So far we have not had any problems in the last 2-3 years.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

Taking in our asymmetric single handed I always release the clew at the bow and bring the sail behind the main. The down haul remains attached and is pulled together with the sheets. I pull a prussik loop around all lines at the tack and clew and attach them to the deck. The sail collapses and the sock slides down effortlessly (well almost). Getting into the wind shadow of the main is crucial.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Wind, Can you go through your process some more? I understand the easing of the tack line to depower and help rotate the kite behind the main. Is the "downhaul" the same thing as the "sock control line"? You then ease the loaded sheet so the clew is in line with the forepeak? Then you capture everything with your prussic line? I'm always looking for new ways to "skin the cat" so I am curious to learn more.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

windnrock said:


> @pdqaltair - "Climbers have broken 5000-pound Dyneema tethers with falls as short as 2 feet. The failures are due to a basic misunderstanding of design, not actual severity. ISO finally saw this and changed the rule." Do you have a reference for this? I am interested in reading it.


Which part?

Though I cannot find the reference, there have been several fatalities where a climber fell directly on a Dyneema sling.
How to Break Nylon & Dyneema® Slings [Vid] - Knowledge - DMM Climbing Equipment. Innovative climbing gear, made in Wales.

As for the failures of tethers sailing:

"A lesson in harness and tether construction can be learned from Tami Ashcraft, who along with a sailor friend was making a sailboat delivery to Hawaii when they ran into a powerful storm. Ashcraft was knocked unconscious. When she came to more than 24 hours later, she climbed to the cockpit where a single tether dangled over the side. The D-ring had snapped where it was connected to her friend's PFD. He was gone. Ashcraft was convinced a round ring might have held, like those on Mustang vests." Ashcroft, in my opinion, was wrong in her conclusions.

1998 Sydney-Hobart Race Accident. Glyn Charles was never found, after his tether parted. But the force of dragging his body through the water could not have generated that kind of force, only a sudden impact. The inquest stated that he was attached to a "fixed point" and thus would not have benefited from jack line shock absorption. The lanyard may have also been defective, though I can't locate the testing information. Sydney To Hobart Yacht Race Coroner's Inquest - 07/03/2001 - QWN - NSW Parliament. Yachting: Charles died after safety harness failed - Telegraph.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

GeorgeB said:


> I usually go forward on the windward side and am only on the leeward side when I have to tend to things like leech cords, changing sheets and the like.


I've been intrigued by this choice for a while.

If the boat is sailing to the extent that I'm likely to go overboard, the leeward side deck is generally much closer to the water. If there ever was any chance of getting back on the boat, I would have thought this would be it. If the boat is heeled and you fall off the windward side your chances of getting back aboard are a huge fat zero - at least that is so on my boat.

And if you have a headsail set, the leeward side is like moving down a corridor - the MOB protection offered by the sail beats just about any other form of retention. I usually slide my bum (or at least my hand) down the sail on the way forward.

What am I missing? What is the advantage of moving forward on the windward side?


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Personal preference? On the high side I'm balanced on that Cabin - deck joint. And in my little fatty Catalina, leeward tends to get swept by waves in our typical conditions. High side is drier for doing things like dragging up turtles and sail bags. Besides one of the very few times I almost accidentally left the boat, it was through the leeward lifelines.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

GeorgeB We have a GoPro, I should film this sometime. On our Asymmetric there are three points of control, the halyard, the downhaul which goes through a block on the bow up to the tack. It allows us to move the tack up and down the furled headsail using an ATN Tacker. The sheets attach to the clew using a single shackle and pull around forward of the headsail/forestay to tack. There is of course the sleeve or sock control line which in our case is a single line in a loop. 
To dowse, I release the tacker so now the tack is free of the headsail/forestay then I ease the downhaul and start bringing in the sheets behind the main next to the mast. At this point I can bring down the sleeve or sock to get any air out up high. Once I have the clew in hand I collect the foot until I have the tack. I wrap my prussic around both sheets and the downhaul and clip them to a hard point on deck. Now, I can pull the the sleeve/sock all the way down without difficulty. Everything gets pushed into the forepeak (or a bag) leaving the tack and clew hanging out, now I release the halyard and drop all into hatch or bag. I clip the halyard to the downhaul and sheets and pull the down haul in tight. I pull in any slack in the halyard and return to the cockpit where I pull in any slack in the sheets. Next I grab my rum bottle......no no not yet, then I throw a couple of loops from the furler line around the secondary winch (backwards) open the clutch and pull out the headsail. Set new course, trim main and headsail, lockdown the rudder and set the hydrovane. Now I can have that rum! That is mostly how I do it kind of I think.

PDQAltair - I have broken lots of equipment, climbing and sailing, it is never really surprising given the loading. And that is the point I think in a discussion concerning Jacklines and harnesses. Depending on where you go to have your adventures, you may find some loading. Jacklines are only a part of the system but still a foundation. How many people don't use leg loops with their harness?


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

windnrock said:


> Taking in our asymmetric single handed I always release the clew at the bow and bring the sail behind the main. The down haul remains attached and is pulled together with the sheets. I pull a prussik loop around all lines at the tack and clew and attach them to the deck. The sail collapses and the sock slides down effortlessly (well almost). Getting into the wind shadow of the main is crucial.


I have found this is an easy way to do it as well. I first discovered it when I had kept up the spinnaker too long in unstable air with increasing gusts. After a nasty broach (which I referred to as a learning experience for my novice crew), the safest and quickest way to get the sail down was to blow the tack, use the sheet to bring the sail behind the main's shadow, and then use the sock's control line to snuff the spinnaker.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

Omatako said:


> I've been intrigued by this choice for a while.
> 
> If the boat is sailing to the extent that I'm likely to go overboard, the leeward side deck is generally much closer to the water. If there ever was any chance of getting back on the boat, I would have thought this would be it. If the boat is heeled and you fall off the windward side your chances of getting back aboard are a huge fat zero - at least that is so on my boat.
> 
> ...


Interesting thought, I have never thought much about falling over the windward side. You are absolutely correct though, it would suck. I am pretty much the same thought as GeorgeB. High and dry, better footing and while you may be higher off the water, everything is coming from windward. Heavily heeled you would practically have to jump to clear the lifeline. Getting tired here but one thought, if the boat gets knocked while you are on the lee, there is more of a chance of getting swept off.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

dhays said:


> I have found this is an easy way to do it as well. I first discovered it when I had kept up the spinnaker too long in unstable air with increasing gusts. After a nasty broach (which I referred to as a learning experience for my novice crew), the safest and quickest way to get the sail down was to blow the tack, use the sheet to bring the sail behind the main's shadow, and then use the sock's control line to snuff the spinnaker.


Looking at ways to douse without a sock blowing the tack seems to be the best way. Sounded like a good tip last year in another discussion to just haul the sheet right down the companionway. I'd have to lengthen my halyard a bit to do it.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I'm almost there, windrock. Is what you call the "downhaul" the same thing that I call the "tack line"? or is it a separate line that controls the ATN Tacker on the headstay? To douse, I set the auto to 165-170 AWA, do a big ease on the tackline to depower the kite and a big ease on the sheet so the sail will sock (I can control both lines from the cockpit). I then go forward and sock using my ratchet block. I big wind conditions the wind comes over the top of the main and can keep the spin inflated and the ratchet helps the sock in that first critical five to ten feet of socking. My spin halyard is at the mast so it is easy then to drop the sail, detach lines and do a quick stuff. I then carry the thing back to the cockpit via the windward weather deck. MrsB doesn't tolerate water in her cabin so the hatches stay closed for the most part, when underway.

Some day I'm going to get one of those go pros. But before that, I gotta learn how to post photos!


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

GeorgeB said:


> I'm almost there, windrock. Is what you call the "downhaul" the same thing that I call the "tack line"? or is it a separate line that controls the ATN Tacker on the headstay? To douse, I set the auto to 165-170 AWA, do a big ease on the tackline to depower the kite and a big ease on the sheet so the sail will sock (I can control both lines from the cockpit). I then go forward and sock using my ratchet block. I big wind conditions the wind comes over the top of the main and can keep the spin inflated and the ratchet helps the sock in that first critical five to ten feet of socking. My spin halyard is at the mast so it is easy then to drop the sail, detach lines and do a quick stuff. I then carry the thing back to the cockpit via the windward weather deck. MrsB doesn't tolerate water in her cabin so the hatches stay closed for the most part, when underway. Some day I'm going to get one of those go pros. But before that, I gotta learn how to post photos!


I found that it is a lot easier to drop the spinnaker through my forward hatch into the V-berth and get it into the bag later. It takes a while to get the sail and sock folded down into the bag in such a way as it is easy to deploy. Back to the original issue, it takes me a bit of time to do it and when sailing solo or short handed I would rather not spend too much time on the foredeck.

Again, Our waters are a lot calmer than those around SF Bay.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I know that if I fall overboard, regardless of windward or leeward, I could NEVER climb back aboard the boat unless it was anchored in dead calm waters, and even then I would need to use the swim ladder on the port side. The gunwale's lowest point is 5 feet above the water - try vaulting that high from the water to just reach the gunwale - ain't gonna happen.

And, most of the time when someone falls overboard, by the time you recover your senses, the boat has already sailed well out of reach and you're on your own in the open sea. Gotta be realistic about this safety stuff. There's lots of theories about climbing back aboard, but in all practical terms, unless you're wearing a PFD, you're gonna drown - plain and simple. 

If you are strapped into a good, shot harness and guitar string tight jackline down the boat's center, it's pretty unlikely that you'll go overboard unless you really do something dumb. Not to say that it does not happen - people tend to do some pretty dumb things sometimes. But, the likelihood of anything bad happening while strapped tightly to a good jackline is probably fairly unlikely. Now, I did see a guy get slapped by a boom once, but that was his own dumb fault for not checking to see if the main sheet was fastened. He didn't go overboard, but he had a couple cracked ribs and was flattened to the cabin top. 

All the best,

Gary


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

GeorgeB - Yep, downhaul would be the same a a tack line, it pulls the Tacker down but is attached to the tack of the sail. I ease the downhaul/tackline and trim or bring in the sheet to get the clew to midship. Once I release the Tacker from the Forestay/Headsail I am working entirely from midship, close to the mast. like you say, once I get most of the air to spill, I drop the sock some to get the head of the sail out of the wind. If conditions are wet or we have guests or additional crew the sail goes into its bag on deck. Kappa makes a nice bag with a good ring to keep it open. I clip it vertically and just dump into it. The majority of the operation is done just forward of the boom next to the mast. By doing it the exact same way every time the tack, clew and head are in the same spots in the bag or the hammock in forepeak so they come out perfect every time as well. A lot of folks don't use a spinnaker as much because it seems to be a pain. With practice comes speed. 
@travlineasy - You are absolutely right Garry! While we have ladders, the presumption is that the boat would be brought to a stop to use them. A person over the side underway is pretty helpless. More likely than not, trying to stay in the harness if they don't have leg loops and trying to breath as well. In a full suit of foulies you aren't coming up the line hand over hand. We have tackle to hoist as well!


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Random thoughts about jacklines and falling overboard.

° Seems to that there are two situations where you might fall overboard (it actually is a continuum). One is when it is really honking. I think this is actually less of a problem than it might seem since in these conditions one is being extra careful and likely is crawling forward or at least has the body's centre of gravity very low. The other situation is when conditions are fairly light and balance seems not a problem so we are not as careful. A random wave out of the normal pattern can get us there.

° Had a friend who went over the lee side on a passage to Bermuda. He was dragged by his tether for a few seconds until the next wave threw him back onboard. He was a little beaten up, back scraped and the like, but otherwise OK. In the conditions they had there would be no way to climb back onboard, you would need help, which they had with a full crew. In this case the jackline/tether did its job and kept him close to the boat.

° Was in a race many years ago in which a man was lost. He was coming up the companionway with tether in hand to hook up to a hard point in the cockpit when the boat got hammered by a large wave. Since then, in snotty conditions, I leave the tether hooked up in the cockpit and hookup to the harness in the cabin before climbing on deck.

° I go on the windward or leeward side as the situation warrants. Our toe rail is about 5" high which gives excellent footing on the lee side. On the lee side when you are heeled the handholds are tilted toward you. Can be wet though.

° I was adding ties to our dinghy while sitting on the lee deck when we were knocked down in southern French Polynesia. Water came up to my chest and I was briefly floating. Had both the long and short tethers attached to things and my legs around a stay (winds were in the low 50s and normal waves were around 20 feet when a rogue hit us). I never felt at risk and my only reaction was that the water was very warm. I think in this case it was that I knew conditions were nasty and was being extra careful.

° We are replacing our Wichard polyester jacklines, that I tighten as much as I can with Dyneema. This is not because of dissatisfaction with the polyester webbing, it is just old and replacement ones are extremely expensive and I have become a fan of these new ropes.

° Also adding stainless tubing 'protectors' over the aft dorade boxes. We have these over the forward dorades so sheets do not catch. The afts are just aft of the cockpit and it is a place where there are no good handholds if you need to go from the centre cockpit to the stern to do something, e.g. drop the Monitor rudder after leaving an anchorage. Good handholds are a must along the entire length of the boat.

° Physical fitness matters. If you can't walk while squatting with your bum tucked under then you need to crawl. Keeping the centre of gravity low is very important.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> I think you're right. The basic design of furler systems seems to be questionable. Maybe the companies that make them and charge ridiculous prices should get in touch with fishing reel engineers and ask how to make line spool evenly. Even the cheapest fishing reels have line control mechanisms on some kinds of reels. Some sort of mechanism to move the line up and down on the spool is needed. Depending on the line to magically level on its own is a flawed idea. It invites a loop to slip down because the loops pile up too high before falling off, causing a loose spot which in turn causes a jam.


Uhhh, I'm sure you know the old saw about a craftsman blaming his tools, right?

;-)

There's nothing wrong with any top quality furler today, properly installed _and operated..._

What amazes me, is how little attention most folks give to their furling line, many obviously think any old ordinary double braid will do... Astonishing, considering a headsail furling line is one of the most important pieces of string on the boat...

The way to go in my view, is to use a high quality rope with a Dyneema core, and strip the cover from the portion that will go on the furling drum... I use Samson MLX, I've come to love that rope, and it's ideal for a furling line... Nice hand, no tendency to hockle, runs beautifully thru blocks and leads...

By wrapping only the Dyneema core on the drum, you will "use up" only a fraction of the diameter of the drum, and coupled with the use of a ratchet turning block at the cockpit, one would have to be an absolute moron to get an override or line snag on a furling drum...

Having said that, of course, virtually guarantees I will somehow manage to do so next time out...

;-)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> I'd use it if I had a sock. I do have a windvane to keep the boat headed in the right direction but have never tried to set the asym. myself.


Don't you have an autopilot?

If you're gonna rely on a vane, I'd think twice about flying a chute singlehanded, particularly for the first time... I have all the faith in the world in my Sailomat, but would not trust it when setting or dousing my chute, as is the case with most vanes, they are least effective downwind in the lighter airs you'll typically be carrying a spinnaker...

Stellan Knoos of Sailomat, for example, specifically cautions against the use of his vanes for spinnaker sailing, definitely does not recommend it...



dhays said:


> George,
> 
> I agree with you. Initially I was going to do just that when I rigged my spinnaker, but the cost of a ratchet snatch block seemed a bit steep. I still want to do it, I just need to bite the bullet and pay the money for a block.


Hmmm, let me get this straight... You sail a late model 40 footer, and yet are hemming and hawing over the purchase of a single ratchet block?

)

George is right, from both a practical and safety standpoint, I think a ratchet clipped to the deck is essential for the safe and effective use of a sock on a boat of your size... Hell, even a regular block will be better than nothing, and guard against the possibilty of being lifted from the deck by a sudden filling or re-filing of the sail during the procedure...

Seriously, spend a few bucks, and do it right... ;-)


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> Uhhh, I'm sure you know the old saw about a craftsman blaming his tools, right?
> 
> ;-)
> 
> ...


Amazing that you mention this as I was just thinking about doing exactly that about an hour ago though I'm not sure a cover is necessary at all. I replaced the line on the drum a couple of years ago with standard double braid and am not happy at all with the performance of the stuff. It is too stiff and has too much a mind of its own which I believe leads to many of the issues of getting it to roll up smoothly. It's the same issue with trying to use something like sta-set for a sheet. Dyneema would tend to slip down much easier so that a build-up and slip is less likely to occur. It will also, as you say, use up a lot less space of the drum. My furler is an old Selden Furlex. It works well and took a while to get the knack to avoid problems but the line needs to be changed again.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

I will look for this article but I seem to recall reading somewhere that the vast majority of man overboards in sailing vessels and consequently the possible precursor for a number of drownings was from people peeing off the stern and falling in. I think there is a CG statistic on this! Will check on this in next couple of days.
We use a Hydrovane on longer passages and have had no issues downwind. If you have continuing problems with headsail furlers you may want to look into continuous line furling. I considered it but have not had any issues with the ProFurls that we use on the headsail and inner staysail. Maintaining tension both in and out is the key I think. Positioning the last guide into the drum properly will make the feed much better. Not only centering it, but being far enough away to allow the line to track up and down easily. Unfortunately, I have found it rarely is a good spot! My headsail line feeds through a block that is lashed to the pulpit and flies about 6-7 inches off the rail. the staysail feed is a bit of a tripping hazard as it crosses the starboard side but they both feed flawlessly. Everything is a compromise I guess! One big potential problem I see on a number of boats is too little line. When furled, there are no wraps on the drum leaving the end of the line to take all the tension. I do use a basic 3/8" double braid (Dacron over Nylon) and, like I said, we have had no issues. Single braid Dyneema or Spectra could improve feed for some folks having problems but I think tension and feed will still be the major factors especially with larger headsails. We are much more careful with the Genoa than the Yankee or 1.0.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> Don't you have an autopilot?
> 
> If you're gonna rely on a vane, I'd think twice about flying a chute singlehanded, particularly for the first time... I have all the faith in the world in my Sailomat, but would not trust it when setting or dousing my chute, as is the case with most vanes, they are least effective downwind in the lighter airs you'll typically be carrying a spinnaker...
> 
> Stellan Knoos of Sailomat, for example, specifically cautions against the use of his vanes for spinnaker sailing, definitely does not recommend it...


Definitely a problem in a light wind on a run but I'd head up a bit to be on a bit of a reach enough where the vane was stable. Doing it by releasing the tack, the wind should keep the cloth out away from getting wrapped as the sail was dragged in over the deck by the clew/sheet. What I'd like is a mild brake to put the sheet in so I don't need to keep the halyard tension by hand as the sail comes down and can just head for the companionway sheet in hand.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I can't imagine using our Monitor to steer the boat while taking down (or putting up) our asymmetric. As soon as you popped the sail the balance of the boat would completely change and the vane could not steer it effectively - or at all. One reason we got an autopilot is make spinnaker handling easier, keeping in mind that our asymmetric is quite large.

Totally agree about a ratcheting block. The earlier post mentioned a ratcheting snatch block. It does not need to be anything fancy. We use a fairly inexpensive Harken block (if anything from Harken is inexpensive) and it works fine. We had the ratchet go on one of these blocks (it still works as a regular block) in more than 35k miles, but had a spare. Before we had a chance to put the new block on we noticed how much harder it was without the ratchet. We use regular double braid which is fairly large diameter (nice on the hands) and we have not had a problem. The last block before the furler is a considerable distance from the furler and the capacity of the drum seems ample.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

killarney_sailor said:


> I can't imagine using our Monitor to steer the boat while taking down (or putting up) our asymmetric. As soon as you popped the sail the balance of the boat would completely change and the vane could not steer it effectively - or at all. One reason we got an autopilot is make spinnaker handling easier, keeping in mind that our asymmetric is quite large.
> 
> Totally agree about a ratcheting block. The earlier post mentioned a ratcheting snatch block. It does not need to be anything fancy. We use a fairly inexpensive Harken block (if anything from Harken is inexpensive) and it works fine. We had the ratchet go on one of these blocks (it still works as a regular block) in more than 35k miles, but had a spare. Before we had a chance to put the new block on we noticed how much harder it was without the ratchet. We use regular double braid which is fairly large diameter (nice on the hands) and we have not had a problem. The last block before the furler is a considerable distance from the furler and the capacity of the drum seems ample.


You may well be right. Only by trying it with someone ready at the wheel will I find out whether its possible with my boat. A lot of these things are possible with enough practice. In any case, the only time I'd use the asymmetrical when singlehanded would be in very light wind when I felt there was no danger of the sail being overpowered. The sail can be scary if left up when the wind gets honking. I fell better just having the Genoa poled out. If I was crossing the Pacific it'd be worth spending the bucks for a wheel pilot but I'm not crossing any oceans in the near future


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

Getting back to the Jackline/Harness/tether thing. Here are a couple of links. The first is a study that was completed in 1999 by The Sailing Foundation. While dated, it contains some good information as "some things never change" or only moderately. They include, at the end, several letters from manufacturers whose products failed.

http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/DARoot/Offshore/SAS Studies/Safety At Sea Studies.pdf

The second is an informative if not depressing collection of case histories. While many of these tragedies are obviously the product of inexperience and gross error, they certainly show the mechanics and, well hey, anyone can make a gross error and it usually happens at a bad time. That being the purpose of good lifesaving equipment, to save us from ourselves!

LIFESLING CASE HISTORIES - United States Sailing Association eBooks Source Ussailing.org | ProdMagez.com


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

smurphny said:


> You may well be right. Only by trying it with someone ready at the wheel will I find out whether its possible with my boat. A lot of these things are possible with enough practice. In any case, the only time I'd use the asymmetrical when singlehanded would be in very light wind when I felt there was no danger of the sail being overpowered. The sail can be scary if left up when the wind gets honking. I fell better just having the Genoa poled out. If I was crossing the Pacific it'd be worth spending the bucks for a wheel pilot but I'm not crossing any oceans in the near future


Being able to release the tack on an asymmetric quickly is essential for safety. We use trigger release snap shackles for that purpose. Generally we will take the sail in when the wind climbs, even with crew we don't need to be overpowered! You are so absolutely right, they are powerful sails!


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, let me get this straight... You sail a late model 40 footer, and yet are hemming and hawing over the purchase of a single ratchet block? ) George is right, from both a practical and safety standpoint, I think a ratchet clipped to the deck is essential for the safe and effective use of a sock on a boat of your size... Hell, even a regular block will be better than nothing, and guard against the possibilty of being lifted from the deck by a sudden filling or re-filing of the sail during the procedure... Seriously, spend a few bucks, and do it right... ;-)


Yeah, I know that sounds ridiculous. Even though I have achieved a modicum of financial security, I still can be frugal to a fault. This is especially true when it comes to sailing as it is an activity that was passed on to me by my father, and father before him. As such, sailing has been imbued, for me at least, with their depression era ethos of financial conservatism. I am working to overcome that tendency. The cost of a ratchet snatch block is just one of many examples.

In my defense... I will say that if I wasn't generally frugal in my spending, I would never be able to afford that late model 40 foot sailboat.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

dhays said:


> Yeah, I know that sounds ridiculous. Even though I have achieved a modicum of financial security, I still can be frugal to a fault. This is especially true when it comes to sailing as it is an activity that was passed on to me by my father, and father before him. As such, sailing has been imbued, for me at least, with their depression era ethos of financial conservatism. I am working to overcome that tendency. The cost of a ratchet snatch block is just one of many examples.
> 
> In my defense... I will say that if I wasn't generally frugal in my spending, I would never be able to afford that late model 40 foot sailboat.


Instead of a ratchet snatch block, I was thinking that a cam cleat with a fairlead that could be swung over after the line was in would work for applications like this. I looked for such a gizmo but could not find one listed anywhere. Clutches and or a standard ratchet block seem to be too time consuming to thread line through but a cam cleat that could just be snapped shut after a line was in the teeth seems like a no-brainer from a functional point of view. Has anyone seen anything like this?

The people I know who are financially independent got there exactly as you describe. Kudos for financial conservatism!

And by the way, I just ordered 1/4" Amsteel for my furler. Will be interesting to try it. Pretty soon the boat will have nothing but this stuff for lines


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

smurphny said:


> Instead of a ratchet snatch block, I was thinking that a cam cleat with a fairlead that could be swung over after the line was in would work for applications like this. I looked for such a gizmo but could not find one listed anywhere. Clutches and or a standard ratchet block seem to be too time consuming to thread line through but a cam cleat that could just be snapped shut after a line was in the teeth seems like a no-brainer from a functional point of view. Has anyone seen anything like this?


I don't understand your comment about a ratcheting block being time consuming. The furling line lives there full-time. The only difference to a regular block is the friction it gives you, both on the way in and the ways out.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

killarney_sailor said:


> I don't understand your comment about a ratcheting block being time consuming. The furling line lives there full-time. The only difference to a regular block is the friction it gives you, both on the way in and the ways out.


Sorry, should have been clearer. I was thinking of a device to use when hauling in the sheet/clew of an asym. spinnaker to run the *halyard* through so as not to have to keep the bitter end of the halyard in hand as well as the sheet to keep tension on it so it doesn't just slide down uncontrollably, dropping the sail in a heap possibly in the water. To control the drop once the clew is blown.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

windnrock said:


> I will look for this article but I seem to recall reading somewhere that the vast majority of man overboards in sailing vessels and consequently the possible precursor for a number of drownings was from people peeing off the stern and falling in. I think there is a CG statistic on this! Will check on this in next couple of days.


Chances are you read that on a sailing forum... 

The assertion that the majority of drowned MOBs are found with their flies open has been repeated ad nauseum for as long as I can remember... I'm still waiting for someone to produce a reliable cite for this supposed 'statistic'... Who knows, perhaps you'll be the one...

;-)

Peeing over the side is so stupid, even I refuse to do it ;-) Think of all the lives that might have been saved by spending a buck at Harbor Freight...

_Pee, toss, rinse, repeat..._


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Really. A coffee cup, a plastic container, a bucket. You'd have to be daft to balance on the gunwale to take a pee. Anyone doing this is a candidate for the Darwin awards.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

^Be careful, Smackdaddy might want to copy that idea...who knows, an entire new product line of ISAF approved micturating devices. Does that ball glow in the dark?


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

^Be careful, Smackdaddy might want to copy that idea...who knows, an entire new product line of ISAF approved micturating devices. Does that ball glow in the dark? 

They do, but that's from being an engineers mate on a early nuclear sub. Oh, sorry, I misunderstood!


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I would have never guessed your boats lack a head.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> And by the way, I just ordered 1/4" Amsteel for my furler. Will be interesting to try it. Pretty soon the boat will have nothing but this stuff for lines


1/4" Amsteel for a furling line?

Ouch, that's gonna be pretty hard on the hands, no?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> 1/4" Amsteel for a furling line?
> 
> Ouch, that's gonna be pretty hard on the hands, no?


Maybe. If it is, will put a cover on it but wearing gloves, it may be ok. Am hoping the decreased friction may make the system smoother. Will see. The drum on my furler gets very full, even with a minimum amount of the Sta-Set on it and winds up creating too much friction on the spool shroud gizmo. Having smaller line will eliminate that problem. I hate to have to yarn on the damned thing to get it to fully roll up or try to coax the jib out in light winds. I think the benefit of the decreased friction on the fairleads and smaller spool may be an improvement. It'll require an extra loop on the cleat to keep the slick stuff from slipping but that's no biggie.

Using bare Dyneema for Halyards has been no problem. It can be cleated effectively and its soft, pliable nature is a big plus. Will let you know if it works for this.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

smurphny said:


> Maybe. If it is, will put a cover on it but wearing gloves, it may be ok. Am hoping the decreased friction may make the system smoother. Will see. The drum on my furler gets very full, even with a minimum amount of the Sta-Set on it and winds up creating too much friction on the spool shroud gizmo. Having smaller line will eliminate that problem. I hate to have to yarn on the damned thing to get it to fully roll up or try to coax the jib out in light winds. I think the benefit of the decreased friction on the fairleads and smaller spool may be an improvement. It'll require an extra loop on the cleat to keep the slick stuff from slipping but that's no biggie.
> 
> Using bare Dyneema for Halyards has been no problem. It can be cleated effectively and its soft, pliable nature is a big plus. Will let you know if it works for this.


Have you stripped the core from the first ~ 20 feet of the polyester DB furler line? This is standard practice and should make it fit easily and wind better.

If you decide to cover it, save the old line. Simply sew the Amsteel to the core and use that to pull the cover on. But I'd try stripping the DB core first.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

pdqaltair said:


> Have you stripped the core from the first ~ 20 feet of the polyester DB furler line? This is standard practice and should make it fit easily and wind better.
> 
> If you decide to cover it, save the old line. Simply sew the Amsteel to the core and use that to pull the cover on. But I'd try stripping the DB core first.


Great idea. Have not tried that. Will probably just save the old/new furler line and buy a cover if needed for the Amsteel. Control lines for the windvane could use replacing.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Here is the device that boat trailer winch manufacturers began using decades ago. It works very, very well, no overrides using steel cable or rope. I think I'll make one for my furler drum - it's not rocket science.










Gary


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## RocketScience (Sep 8, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> _Pee, toss, rinse, repeat..._


Great idea, rope, stopper ball and all. But I'm certain I'll need a deeper bucket....:laugher


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I've been carrying a hospital urinal, plastic one, for the past 30 years. Many years ago I wrote a magazine article about boat drownings, and after contacting the departments of natural resources in four states, it was clear that the vast majority of those that lost their lives to drownings did so while peeing over the side, and more than 2/3s were drunk. At least half hit their heads when falling overboard as well.

All the best,

Gary


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

smurphny said:


> Great idea. Have not tried that. Will probably just save the old/new furler line and buy a cover if needed for the Amsteel. Control lines for the windvane could use replacing.


It really is the standard rigger's method, not an internet guess. It's probably in the furler's instruction manual. Try it first. It is really easy. Do taper the core.

I really like furling by hand rather than winch, since by winch it is easy to miss a bind. A nice polyester line encourages this.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

pdqaltair said:


> It really is the standard rigger's method, not an internet guess. It's probably in the furler's instruction manual. Try it first. It is really easy. Do taper the core.
> 
> I really like furling by hand rather than winch, since by winch it is easy to miss a bind. A nice polyester line encourages this.


My furler's instructions probably disappeared in the 60s I replaced what was on there with the same type line. The original didn't have the cover removed so it never occurred to me to do that. That may not have been the method back then because the drum looks bigger that modern drums.

Absolutely right about not using a winch. That's a good way to bring the rig down. No furler is designed to take the amount of pull from a winch. To me, if it does not move easily by hand, there is something wrong. Either there's still wind in the sail, the halyard is wrapped, or the drum is jammed. I think most of the problems with furlers comes from the wrong set-up at the halyard block. I had to do quite a bit of adjustment to the existing pennants on some sails to make sure the halyard was immune to wrapping. Dyneema came in handy for that. It makes great top and bottom pennants. I sewed Dyneema right into my storm jib for a full length bolt rope.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> Maybe. If it is, will put a cover on it but wearing gloves, it may be ok. Am hoping the decreased friction may make the system smoother. Will see. The drum on my furler gets very full, even with a minimum amount of the Sta-Set on it and winds up creating too much friction on the spool shroud gizmo. Having smaller line will eliminate that problem. I hate to have to yarn on the damned thing to get it to fully roll up or try to coax the jib out in light winds. I think the benefit of the decreased friction on the fairleads and smaller spool may be an improvement. It'll require an extra loop on the cleat to keep the slick stuff from slipping but that's no biggie.
> 
> Using bare Dyneema for Halyards has been no problem. It can be cleated effectively and its soft, pliable nature is a big plus. *Will let you know if it works for this.*


No need to do that, I already know it works great, that's why I recommended it back in Post #72...



Just seems a lot simpler to buy a rope with an SK-75 or similar Dyneema core, and strip the cover, than to go thru all the trouble of sewing a cover onto a length of Amsteel, but to each his own ;-)

I know some folks go the opposite route mentioned by pdqaltair, and strip the core, instead... But I've never understood the logic of that, I wouldn't care to entrust the integrity of my furling system to the _weakest, stretchiest_ component of the rope, rather than the part typically offering the most strength, and lowest stretch...

;-)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

travlineasy said:


> Here is the device that boat trailer winch manufacturers began using decades ago. It works very, very well, no overrides using steel cable or rope. I think I'll make one for my furler drum - it's not rocket science.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're overthinking this, Gary...

;-)

Buy yourself a decent piece of rope with a Dyneema core, strip the cover from the portion that goes on the drum, and assuming your lead is anything remotely close to fair, you'll be good to go...

_Guaranteed..._

;-)


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> No need to do that, I already know it works great, that's why I recommended it back in Post #72...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


a. It works. My boat came through that way, as recommended in the manual. But I'm sure what you described is better. Next time.

b. I think it comes down to whether the rope is designed for the core to be exposed; many Dyneema lines are designed with this in mind, while every polyester core I have seen is a useless snag-prone mess, never intended to see the light of day.

c. I coated the stripped portion with RP25 (testing for an article) and it seems to help with wear and stretch. I would use Maxijacket if I had it to do over.

d. The core and cover of polyester DB are equal in strength and very similar in stretch; the standard splice depends upon that fact.

e. The cover alone flattens out like webbing, winding much better than round line, just like webbing is better on a trailer winch than rope.

The most important factor, the holy grail, is a chafe-free lead!


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> No need to do that, I already know it works great, that's why I recommended it back in Post #72...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I realize you posted on that. I was thinking of whether the bare Dyneema would be too slick to handle and need to be covered. I think the idea that Dyneema is too slippery to handle is overblown. If on a winch, probably true but for something like this, not sure. The 1/4" Dyneema is available for .75 per foot. I don't want to spend two bucks a foot for some expensive line and then throw away part of it. That seems wasteful.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I edited my post above to add one more reason decored PDB works well:

When the core is removed it flattens like webbing, which winds on the drum much better than any round material. This is why webbing is used on trainer winches, not rope. Exposed core and and even Amsteel will not do this as well.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> I would have never guessed your boats lack a head.


hehe, My boat actually has two of them. To this day my wife doesn't know that that plactic water bottle with the top cut off is for that is sitting in the boat. I pour it down the drain, give it a quick rinse, and I'm done. Sure saves on the number of times that I have to empty the holding tanks.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> I edited my post above to add one more reason decored PDB works well:
> 
> When the core is removed it flattens like webbing, which winds on the drum much better than any round material. This is why webbing is used on trainer winches, not rope. Exposed core and and even Amsteel will not do this as well.


Actually, most trailer winches, with the exception of those used for bass boats, use 1/4-inch to 3/8-inch stainless steel cable.

Gary


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> I would have never guessed your boats lack a head.


Well, nature sometimes has a tendency to call at a rather inconvenient time, especially when you're sailing alone... 

For instance, I rarely enter a long landcut like the Alligator-Pungo Canal without brewing a cup of coffee beforehand... Chances are that sometime during the next 4 hours or so it might take me to run the length of that canal, I'm gonna have to take a leak. Having that cup handy saves me from having to stop the boat to use the head below...

Moreover, when I'm running OPB's, I always try to keep any use of the head(s) to an absolute minimum... Why go looking for trouble?

;-)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> I realize you posted on that. I was thinking of whether the bare Dyneema would be too slick to handle and need to be covered. I think the idea that Dyneema is too slippery to handle is overblown. If on a winch, probably true but for something like this, not sure. The 1/4" Dyneema is available for .75 per foot. I don't want to spend two bucks a foot for some expensive line and then throw away part of it. That seems wasteful.


OK, fair enough, good luck with that... But I already have a pretty good ideal how well 1/4" Amsteel would work as a furling line, FOR ME... On more than one occasion, I have wished I might have gone for 7/16 instead of 3/8 MLX for my genoa furler...

;-)


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

Back to Jacklines......

As I mentioned pages ago, I am committed to start using a tether when on deck. Now, if I am out with my wife and either leaving or entering our Harbor, I won't use the tether. Lots of boats around all year and it nice and protected. But when out of the harbor I will use them.

I started this weekend. The old tethers that I inherited from my father were not adequate, the carbiners on the tethers were in sad shape and not to be trusted. They also could pretty easily come open if a line twisted around it.

I bought a Spinlock 2 link tether. I got the version with the loop for a Cow Hitch attachment to the vest. I wanted less hardware and I always have a knife on me I can open one-handed. It works great however a snap shackle would be more convenient for putting on and taking on the vest/harness. Flip side the cow hitch is fool proof, lightweight, and quiet.

I used the old webbing jacklines that I inherited as well. They weren't really long enough (prior boat was a 36) but I was able to secure them to the forward and aft cleats on either side.

Having used this setup over the weekend, I learned a few things. The tether works great, two legs, 3 and 6 foot with the 6 foot length being elastic. I wore the pfd/harness full time when under way and stuck a clip in each pocket of my pants. It was easy to use, didn't get in the way, and was comfortable. Again, the only downside was the cow hitch made taking off or putting on a jacket a bit more of a process than a shackle would have.

I also discovered that the jackline webbing wasn't going to work well. I had a hard time getting it as tight as I would have liked and the webbing had more stretch than I was comfortable with. So I need to come up with different jacklines.

I think given the length of the jacklines I will want to use a dyneema line. I am tempted by the APS jacklines they make. The use a 1/4" Spectra line and cover it with it with Polyester webbing. They put an eye splice at either end with the bare Spectra and the rest is covered. Looks like it would work well.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

JonEisberg said:


> You're overthinking this, Gary...
> 
> ;-)
> 
> ...


Jon, when you strip the cover off that portion that goes into the drum, the other half of the jib line is complete. (Core and cover) Do you put a couple of stitches on the core and cover together where you initially stripped the cover off so it stays intact?


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Jon, you're probably right about the overthinking part - I tend to do that sometimes. In this case, I've only had a furling line bury itself once in a decade of using the Alado system, so for me, it's probably not worth worrying about. Currently, I use a length of 3/8 braid and I keep just the slightest amount of tension on the furler line when I deploy the jib. It quickly rolls flat to the top of the drum, then I give it a slight twitch and it rolls evenly to the bottom of the drum, at which point the sail is fully deployed. The Alado drum is fairly large in diameter, which makes furling the sail pretty easy and less rolls of line on the drum when deploying. One of the many reasons I love that system.

Thanks again, everyone,

Gary


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

travlineasy said:


> Actually, most trailer winches, with the exception of those used for bass boats, use 1/4-inch to 3/8-inch stainless steel cable.
> 
> Gary


Of course. But never rope.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, nature sometimes has a tendency to call at a rather inconvenient time, especially when you're sailing alone...
> 
> For instance, I rarely enter a long landcut like the Alligator-Pungo Canal without brewing a cup of coffee beforehand... Chances are that sometime during the next 4 hours or so it might take me to run the length of that canal, I'm gonna have to take a leak. Having that cup handy saves me from having to stop the boat to use the head below...
> 
> ...


I hope everyone knows I was teasing. I would never piss of the back.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

dhays said:


> Back to Jacklines......
> 
> ... The use a 1/4" Spectra line and cover it with it with Polyester webbing. They put an eye splice at either end with the bare Spectra and the rest is covered. Looks like it would work well.


The webbing might as well be cheaper nylon from REI. It will carry no load either way (the difference in elasticity it too great) and all it is doing is making the line more slip-proof and protected from shoes. Some people put a little pre-tension on the nylon so that doesn't get loose when wet.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

pdqaltair said:


> The webbing might as well be cheaper nylon from REI. It will carry no load either way (the difference in elasticity it too great) and all it is doing is making the line more slip-proof and protected from shoes. Some people put a little pre-tension on the nylon* so that doesn't get loose when wet*.


That's a big problem with the 1" nylon webbing, it stretches badly when wet and then gets banjo-string tight when hot and dry.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

smurphny said:


> That's a big problem with the 1" nylon webbing, it stretches badly when wet and then gets banjo-string tight when hot and dry.


Exactly. If you secure the webbing to the Amsteel with the webbing tight and the Amsteel a bit slack inside, when you pull it tight on the boat the webbing will stay tight. This should be done with polyester too, but to a lesser extent. Otherwise the webbing will pucker and the biners will not slide smoothly.

Personally, I dislike securing jacklines to cleats, because that conflicts with anchoring and docking.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

jerryrlitton said:


> Jon, when you strip the cover off that portion that goes into the drum, the other half of the jib line is complete. (Core and cover) Do you put a couple of stitches on the core and cover together where you initially stripped the cover off so it stays intact?


Try a Double Braid Class II Stripping Cover splice, see http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Splice Instructions/DblBrd_C2_Stripping_Cover_WEB.pdf

For eye splicing 12 strand Dyneema a Brummell splice is excellent.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

windnrock said:


> Try a Double Braid Class II Stripping Cover splice, see http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Splice Instructions/DblBrd_C2_Stripping_Cover_WEB.pdf
> 
> For eye splicing 12 strand Dyneema a Brummell splice is excellent.


This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

pdqaltair said:


> Exactly. If you secure the webbing to the Amsteel with the webbing tight and the Amsteel a bit slack inside, when you pull it tight on the boat the webbing will stay tight. This should be done with polyester too, but to a lesser extent. Otherwise the webbing will pucker and the biners will not slide smoothly.
> 
> Personally, I dislike securing jacklines to cleats, because that conflicts with anchoring and docking.


I think the ideal system has to be designed as "stand-alone," not adapted to cleats which are probably not in the best position to be effective. As you say, cleats are sometimes useful for other things I'll be using Dyneema for any long sliding sections and individual padeyes for fixed anchor points, with short, fixed tethers when I redesign the jacklines. I can deal with the soft Dyneema underfoot because it doesn't create a bad rolling hazard but want to do away with the long, stretchy, flat nylon. I may well be able to design a system with no sliding sections at all but will have to determine that on the boat, taking into consideration work locations and movement. Am thinking that one 13' (J) piece, set from maybe 3' high on the mast going to the bow plate may serve to handle moving to the bow. A loop in that line in just the right place might make a good fixed attachment.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

My suggestion--and what I have done on every new-to-me boat--is to tie some jacklines from docklines or whatever and try out different things on the water for a few weeks. It always gave me better ideas. I use the same approach for most rigging changes; play with snatch blocks and cheap line until it's right, then install the proper materials.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> I edited my post above to add one more reason decored PDB works well:
> 
> When the core is removed it flattens like webbing, which winds on the drum much better than any round material. This is why webbing is used on trainer winches, not rope. Exposed core and and even Amsteel will not do this as well.


I dunno, my 1/4" Amsteel jacklines tend to go pretty flat after being walked on for awhile... ;-)

I have a hard time picturing anything rolling onto a furler drum more nicely than the dyneema core of my 3/8" MLX... Makes for a tight, even wrap, not even close to needing the full diameter of the drum even after unfurling a 130% genoa...












smurphny said:


> I realize you posted on that. I was thinking of whether the bare Dyneema would be too slick to handle and need to be covered. I think the idea that Dyneema is too slippery to handle is overblown. If on a winch, probably true but for something like this, not sure. The 1/4" Dyneema is available for .75 per foot. I don't want to spend two bucks a foot for some expensive line and then throw away part of it. That seems wasteful.


I've never added a cover to a line, so I'm not speaking from any experience... But seems to me you want to follow the instructions from Samson that windnrock has already linked to to the letter regarding burying the cover to obtain a smooth taper. That seems especially important in a furling line, which must run smoothly thru multiple blocks or fairleads to work well...



jerryrlitton said:


> Jon, when you strip the cover off that portion that goes into the drum, the other half of the jib line is complete. (Core and cover) Do you put a couple of stitches on the core and cover together where you initially stripped the cover off so it stays intact?


windnrock beat me to it, his link is where I would have sent you, as well... Samson's online splcing instructions are an excellent resource, I find them far easier to follow than those from NER, or Yale... You always want to lock-stitch any splice with dyneema or similar, and I'd suggest whipping the point where the cover is buried to get a nice smooth transition...



pdqaltair said:


> > Originally Posted by travlineasy View Post
> >
> > Actually, most trailer winches, with the exception of those used for bass boats, use 1/4-inch to 3/8-inch stainless steel cable.
> >
> ...


Well, I don't know about trailer winches, but whenever one does a search for Amsteel on eBay, this is the application that about 90% of the hits you'll get are apparently for...

;-)


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

Look at Downwind Marine Samson MLX - Dyneema-Polypropylene / Polyester - Double Braid - Competition Grade Rope - Cordage - Downwind Marine Diameter is core and cover. The price on 5/16"(8 mm) Sampson MLX is $1.71, and 3/8"(9 mm) $2.16. You are paying mostly for the core. I tend to go for 3/8" for handling, just a personal preference obviously the strengh is there in the 5/16".


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> I dunno, my 1/4" Amsteel jacklines tend to go pretty flat after being walked on for awhile... ;-)
> 
> I have a hard time picturing anything rolling onto a furler drum more nicely than the dyneema core of my 3/8" MLX... Makes for a tight, even wrap, not even close to needing the full diameter of the drum even after unfurling a 130% genoa...
> 
> ...


Times change. I'll be looking at Dyneema next time. But it will only be for increased longevity; performance is already perfect. A Dyneema line would be last until the cover was done, or at least 12 years, instead of about 8.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> I dunno, my 1/4" Amsteel jacklines tend to go pretty flat after being walked on for awhile... ;-)
> 
> I have a hard time picturing anything rolling onto a furler drum more nicely than the dyneema core of my 3/8" MLX... Makes for a tight, even wrap, not even close to needing the full diameter of the drum even after unfurling a 130% genoa...
> 
> ...


What did you use for a stopper knot on that drum Jon? The slippery nature of Dyneema needs some extra thought. Think I'll throw a few stitches through the knot.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> What did you use for a stopper knot on that drum Jon? The slippery nature of Dyneema needs some extra thought. Think I'll throw a few stitches through the knot.


I've always used the same stopper knot for everything, it's worked fine for me, never noticed any slippage...










If you really wanted to go crazy/bulletproof, you might consider the EStar stopper knot, Evans claims it's the only one that won't slip using Dyneema:

EStar Stopper | How to tie an EStar Stopper Knot | Climbing Knots

The problem with stitching, or a knot like Estar's, is that they cannot be undone easily. I try to stay away from knots that can really become locked under tension, my favored buntline hitch being the only exception... But things like furling lines, I want to be able to remove them without much trouble... Being an expensive piece of rope, I'll try to preserve it by removing it from the boat whenever she's gonna sit unused for awhile, and I don't want to have to deal with anything that makes doing so unnecessarily difficult...


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I've used an ashley stopper knot for years on Dyneema; unless you are loaded to over well 50% BS (impossible here) it will not slip, and it is a simple, symmetrical, and "square" knot. Just tie it tight, locking it with pliers. I really don't see the problem in snipping it off with a knife and losing 3 inches of line.

Another thing you can do is melt the end into a huge blob that cannot pull through.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

This link from the knot page in Jon's post is extremely interesting. Loading is not an issue on a furler but slippage is when using Dyneema. After reading these test results, I was surprised at just how slippery Dyneema actually is, even using the diamond knot. I've made up a number of soft shackles and now am wary of them because of the pre-load spec mentioned by bethandevans. Load testing


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

smurphny said:


> This link from the knot page in Jon's post is extremely interesting. Loading is not an issue on a furler but slippage is when using Dyneema. After reading these test results, I was surprised at just how slippery Dyneema actually is, even using the diamond knot. I've made up a number of soft shackles and now am wary of them because of the pre-load spec mentioned by bethandevans. Load testing


FWIW, I have never had a problem with slipping in any of the soft shackles that I have made. I leave about an inch tail on the strands of the diamond knot at first because as the shackle is heavily loaded they will suck in a bit. I use a winch to to set the shackle well then use it a bit before trimming the tails shorter.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

dhays said:


> FWIW, I have never had a problem with slipping in any of the soft shackles that I have made. I leave about an inch tail on the strands of the diamond knot at first because as the shackle is heavily loaded they will suck in a bit. I use a winch to to set the shackle well then use it a bit before trimming the tails shorter.


I carefully melt the ends of the diamond knots after really tightening them. Also found that they soak up liquid tool handle plastic nicely which makes them indestructible. Best use so far for me is on the anchor snubber-chain connection. Easy-peasy to attach and remove through a chain link.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Well, I just finished installing my jackline system. Longest project ever, due to installing all the padeyes. I tried to learn everything I could from this thread.

Here are a few pics.

Notes :

The lifelines are fairly central to the boat.

The arrangement in the cockpit looks complicated but has an excellent feature : all 4 padeyes would have to fail, to end up in the water.

The same lines run around the padeyes and back to a single buckle for each line, for minimum potential for failure.

The length that passes behind the wheel is handy for the helmsman with crew, who is staying behind the wheel for a tack.

The length in front of the barney post is for the helmsman when singlehanding, where a tack is done passing in front of the wheel (at least, that's how I do it)

The points that pass under the lockers are good for crew when tacking.

The lines are the kit from Wichard.

I may add a couple more padeyes in front of the cabin, on the foredeck, to bring the lines down to the deck.

Looking toward the wheel from the salon :





































This is my 6 ft Wichard tether stretched to max, attached to the helmsman point, pulling it over the stern pullpit. Looks OK to me, easy to climb back in the cockpit? Comments welcome on this!










Not sure about this. 6ft tether again, attached at the cabin top, pulling it over the lifelines, as if I fell overboard while working on the boom or mast. Touch and go whether I'd be able to climb back again. Maybe need a shorter tether? Trouble is, there's only 6ft, or they make one with 3ft and 6ft, a double.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

MarkSF said:


> Well, I just finished installing my jackline system. Longest project ever, due to installing all the padeyes. I tried to learn everything I could from this thread.
> 
> Here are a few pics.
> 
> ...


Nice neat job! As far as getting back up if ever suspended at the chest over the rail, a lot depends on physical strength and whether or not you can get a leg back up over the gunwale. If arms and a leg can get up over the gunwale, a reasonably fit person can probably swing back up on the deck. This can be tried before hand to see whether it can be done. Your end shackle in the picture looks like it might keep your torso high enough to get back on. Where you went over would be an unknown as well. If there was a stanchion in the way right where you needed to swing yourself back up, it could block the attempt.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

What is the rating on those adjusters? I have 3' and 6' leads on my tether and try to always use the three. You might consider actually going over the side with your tether and see if you can re-board. Have a good strong friend handy!


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

pdqaltair said:


> Exactly. If you secure the webbing to the Amsteel with the webbing tight and the Amsteel a bit slack inside, when you pull it tight on the boat the webbing will stay tight. This should be done with polyester too, but to a lesser extent. Otherwise the webbing will pucker and the biners will not slide smoothly.
> 
> Personally, I dislike securing jacklines to cleats, because that conflicts with anchoring and docking.


Fortunately I have rather large cleats, 10", and don't dock a lot. Even with the lines in place our 3/4 dock lines and bridle fit with ease. 3/8" Dyneema doesn't take up much space and we generally don't have the lines out inshore. They take about 5 min. to set and remove so we don't leave them out when not needed. Why are you using tubing over the Dyneema Line? I may have missed a post, do you have like 1/4 or 5/16 inside the webbing? I'm just using the 3/8 by itself. Splices on both ends of each line so we can make a loop, duck through the center of the aft cleats and come around an choke it. Made it with just enough room to do the forward cleats the same way. We cross over the cabin roof just behind the mast to keep them near centerline.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

smurphny said:


> Nice neat job! As far as getting back up if ever suspended at the chest over the rail, a lot depends on physical strength and whether or not you can get a leg back up over the gunwale. If arms and a leg can get up over the gunwale, a reasonably fit person can probably swing back up on the deck. This can be tried before hand to see whether it can be done. Your end shackle in the picture looks like it might keep your torso high enough to get back on. Where you went over would be an unknown as well. If there was a stanchion in the way right where you needed to swing yourself back up, it could block the attempt.


A lot would depend on if you're wearing crotch straps as well. We all like to imagine going over upright and being nicely suspended where we can climb, but tangled, sideways, with the hoarse collar trying to strangle you is just as likely. Try to imagine the scenarios you don't want to imagine and then see if your setup accommodates them. I would think a short enough tether than you can't dangle over the edge would be idea. Not always possible, but ideal.

MedSailor


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

windnrock said:


> What is the rating on those adjusters? I have 3' and 6' leads on my tether and try to always use the three. You might consider actually going over the side with your tether and see if you can re-board. Have a good strong friend handy!


The adjusters I used come with the Wichard kit. You get two jacklines, two adjusters, and those plastic covers that go over the adjusters. The adjusters seem to be a high quality forged item, but they don't state the individual rating for them.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

MedSailor said:


> A lot would depend on if you're wearing crotch straps as well. We all like to imagine going over upright and being nicely suspended where we can climb, but tangled, sideways, with the hoarse collar trying to strangle you is just as likely. Try to imagine the scenarios you don't want to imagine and then see if your setup accommodates them. I would think a short enough tether than you can't dangle over the edge would be idea. Not always possible, but ideal.
> 
> MedSailor


For sure, the best situation, as I noted previously, is to completely eliminate any possibility of you torso going over by the design of the system. To me, that means locating eyes and fixed tethers which serve to keep you on a short leash without inhibiting movement too much. The target probably should be: legs over-ok, torso dropping down below the gunwale-not ok. A possible way to do this is by creating, maybe taping a temporary line parallel to the gunwale at the distance you deem to be the location of your harness attachment and then planning the tethers, fixed tethers, dead-eyes, and runs of jacklines to allow no progress past that line anywhere. I think this is going to require a double attachment at any bow point, with two longish fixed tethers extending from both stbd and port spots along the gunwale, far enough aft to allow enough work movement but not allowing any movement forward.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I have a single point at the mast, to which I'm going to install a 3 or 4 ft tether, permanently installed. The main risk I have identified is while working on the boom - removing the sail ties, or when lowering the sail and installing them. This isn't so easy to address with a fixed point. 

A couple of weekends ago, a wave hit me beam-on while taking off the sail ties, and I nearly went over. That was enough incentive to finish the jackline installation


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

MarkSF said:


> I have a single point at the mast, to which I'm going to install a 3 or 4 ft tether, permanently installed. The main risk I have identified is while working on the boom - removing the sail ties, or when lowering the sail and installing them. This isn't so easy to address with a fixed point.
> 
> A couple of weekends ago, a wave hit me beam-on while taking off the sail ties, and I nearly went over. That was enough incentive to finish the jackline installation


Yep. I hear you. That is also my experience, especially when the boat lays broadside and rolls. I've been working on a scaled drawing for the last hour or so and still have not come up with a workable solution for the bow area. At the boom, it looks like two fixed tethers, one from either gunwale, centered on the middle of the work area where tying up the reefed/doused sail and working at the gooseneck, will work to prevent being tossed over and plenty of slack to work. They look like about 8' in length each. With my narrow ten foot beam, that allows no closer than two feet from either gunwale if I should slip when up there. I think they will allow more movement than a single center jackline which would require a very short, restrictive tether. Wish I had a 3D scaled model of the boat for this.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I wish the Wichard ORC tethers came in other lengths. I like the design with the "release under load" for the harness end, and the secure shackle for the other. But the 6ft 6" length, when extended, is too long. 4 or 5ft would be ideal. They sell the shackles separately, so I suppose I could make my own. 

If there is no chance of ending up in the water (too short), do I even need the "release under load" shackle?

Your post gave me an idea. As I have two jacklines close to central but a couple of feet apart, two tethers, one attached to each, would work well. My 6ft 6" tethers are only too long if I fall from the outer jackline.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MarkSF said:


> If there is no chance of ending up in the water (too short), do I even need the "release under load" shackle?


Most certainly not, IMHO...

Would you go up your mast, for instance, relying on a snap shackle? Why should your sole attachment to the boat be any different?


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Well, the ORC weighed the risks of falling overboard, balanced with the risk of being dragged along in the water and getting drowned. They thought a "release under load" shackle was a good compromise. If the tethers are the right length, this drowning risk goes away - unless I've missed something, which is what I'm really worried about.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

It's something to think about, whether a "release under load" tether is wise. I tend to think not, although I use a double releasable tether. I think a solid tether system with a well secured knife might be a better alternative. In the situation where you lose control and get tossed around, I believe that the chance of that rip cord on a snap shackle being tripped is VERY high. Having an ankle-attached quick release serrated knife might be a better way to go. It's a method used by many commercial fishermen who deal with the possibility of being dragged over in trap lines or nets. I have a whitewater, double edged serrated knife with a quick-release sheath intended to clip on a PFD. It works well as an ankle knife as well. Gerber 30-000967 River Shorty Black - - [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@31xNOWcCcHL


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MarkSF said:


> Well, the ORC weighed the risks of falling overboard, balanced with the risk of being dragged along in the water and getting drowned. They thought a "release under load" shackle was a good compromise. If the tethers are the right length, this drowning risk goes away - unless I've missed something, which is what I'm really worried about.


No, you're not missing anything at all, you've to it right:

_THE ABSOLUTE #1 PRIORITY IS TO NOT FALL OFF THE DAMN BOAT TO BEGIN WITH !!!_

;-)

The ORC is the _OFFSHORE RACING CONGRESS_... Their primary focus is upon boats sailed at maximum speeds, usually fully crewed, which is quite at odds with the way most of us sail...

If you were to go over the side on such a boat at night, and was being dragged in such a way that you feared being drowned, if that crew was unable to drag your ass back aboard while still tethered to the boat, do you suppose the odds of their being able to recover you after you unclipped yourself would actually _IMPROVE ???_

;-)

Translate that scenario to the typical mom & pop cruising couple sailing in tradewinds conditions, say with a downwind pole rigged... How certain would one be that their partner would be able to douse that setup, while keeping an eye on you all the time, then maneuver the boat back to your position, and hoist you back aboard?

I'll take my chances tethered to the boat at all costs... To me, the notion of using a quick release shackle that might accidentally come open is a classic example of 'over-thinking' these sort of issues, and making them more complicated than they need to be...

As smurphy mentions, if anyone is really that concerned about what happens _AFTER_ they've fallen off the boat, just carry a knife...

;-)


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

On short handed cruising boats who is going to be awake, on watch or paying attention while your being dragged in the water or if you do manage to reach down and pull out your trusty tom mix pocket knife and cut your self free? Could be several hours before the next watch keeper notices your gone....How would ma kettle drag your sorry ass, exhausted, probably half dead or adrenelin induce heart failure on board anyway?


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