# It can happen



## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

The morning of July 10th 2003 (thurs.) we were at anchor at Watch Hill RI. listening to the weather band forcast calling for wind warnings by the comming Sat. I had promised my 6 year old son a merry-go-round ride and a day on the beach as it was his birthday. However, with the weather warning we decided to pull anchor at 11 am and head for home running ahead of the front.

The wind was comming up and we were broad reaching thru Long Island Sound at 6 to 7 kts. heading to New York City. We sailed all night with a north west wind just making miles. What a great way to end a week on the Sound that saw us at Mystic Sea Port and other spots of interest.

Dawn broke on friday morning and we are nearing the Throggs Neck bridge and the East river. We had put over 90 miles behind us on the same port tack, it was one of the best overnite sails we had done together.

Latter that morning we have gone through East river and are rounding the Battery at the tip of Manhattan. Lady Liberty comes into veiw and I give her my thanks, as she embodies the very freedom that we sailors hold so dear to take our vessels where we want to go. Shortly we pass the site where the Twin Towers stood and my thoughts go back to that day and the souls lost. We are heading up the Hudson River only 20 miles from home.

About a mile south of the George Washington bridge we were making 3 kts over the ground as we heading into an 3 1/2 kt ebb tide. My fault, made such good time through the sound the nite before, i was early and would have to wait for the incoming tide to give us the push home.

Behind us about 200 yards and 200 yards to port was a large motor yatcht (80 ft). Then out of no where we hear boat engines. I jumped up standing on the starboard cockpit seat and only had time to yell to my wife who was sitting on the port side to jump. Crash!!!!!!!!! We had just been run down by a 45 ft Sea Ray. 

I was thrown into the water and when i got to the surface I could not see anyone the deck of my boat, but i could hear my son screaming. He was in the cabin prior to us being hit but I couldn''t see him. I was scaning the water not knowing where he was now. I tried to start swiming towards my boat which was still heading north with auto pilot on but i could not make any headway agaist the current. I could still hear him screaming. 

A minute or 2 went by and my wife pops up on deck with her life vest on and next my son with his vest on. What a great sight!!!!!!!

I yell to my wife i am over here but she doesn''t hear. Our dog (a Lab) comes swiming over to me. Between the the dog barking and my yelling i get my wife''s attention. I can see my wife having a problem with the wheel and can hear her yell to the boat that hit us that i was in the water and go help him. They do not. 

Minutes go by, but my wife brings the boat back around and picks up the dog and myself.

When i get back onboard; she tells me the Coast Guard is on their way and she made a radio call for help after she had gotten my son and herself in life vests. It was then i could see the damage to my boat.

The Sea Ray hit us port stern at an esimated 20 to 30 kts. My wife was thrown into the open compantion way. She saw the Sea Ray''s hull and props go over her head. She was saved by the binnacle and cabin top. 

I could not have been more proud of my wife the way she handled the crisis. She got our son and herself in life vests. Made a S.O.S call to the Coast Guard and with a bent wheel and jamed auto pilot got the boat back to pick me and the dog up. A few days later she was x-rayed and has 4 crushed disks.

The point to all this gentlemen, it is our responsabliy to teach our sailing partners how to handle the boat. My wife never sailed before we met, now she docks the boat better than myself. However, if she couldn''t handle the boat i don''t think i would be here to write this post. 

I thank you all who take taken the time to share on this forum as i have leaned and it is in that sprit i share this with you.


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## Stede (Jun 13, 2002)

Bubb2,

Very interesting story, and the point is well taken. Thanks for sharing it! Glad to hear that everyone survived it.


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## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

bubb2,

Glad you all survived more or less intact. Your point about cross-training with your sailing partner is a valuable one that I am trying to heed.

I hope you will post more about the aftermath of this tragedy. Like, what happened to the boat which ran you down?

Good luck,
Duane


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

WOW what a story. My wife hadn''t sailed before we met. It was a hard push to get her to handle the boat at first. Now she can handle most things most of the time. Since she is usually the only other person on our boat my life may depend on her someday. Our biggest problem is that when things get exciting I have trouble communicating to her what to do. If things are happening fast I just don''t have the time to explain. We should probably discuss emergency procedures and plan our actions but it''s hard to anticipate situations. 
The last situation was where the roller furling jammed in high winds and shallow water. The sail was flapping wildly and heading into the wind meant a danger of running aground. At first she wanted me to tell her how to steer the boat. But up on the foredeck fighting the genny I had my hands full. Finally she accepted responsibility to keep us off of the bottom and kept us safe while I handled the sail. It was all over in a few minutes and we had a great sail up the bay. A few years ago it might have ended differently.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

What an experience! I am happy to know that you and your family came through, though I am very sorry to hear about your wife''s injury.

I am an enormous activists about wives/partners knowing how to handle their boat. I have been dismayed with the number of women I''ve met cruising who don''t seem to think it''s important!!!!!

FYI, I wrote an article on this topic and included a checklist of things a first mate should know for the Sail Miami site. It''s by no means definitive, but serves as a good basis for a couple to use to make sure she knows what she needs to in order to deal with emergencies.

It''s at http://sailmiami.com/SM_Articles/Take_Her_Sailing/make_or_break.htm

Trish
www.takehersailing.com


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## e-27 sailor (Oct 1, 2003)

Outstanding lesson-learned story, and even more relivent to smaller boaters. When I have quests aboard, I always offer a PFD, and my wife and I always wear ours, telling our guest that "if I end up in the water, it''s probably because we''ve been run over". That usually gets them thinking about their own survival.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

DuaneIsing said:


> bubb2,
> 
> Glad you all survived more or less intact. Your point about cross-training with your sailing partner is a valuable one that I am trying to heed.
> 
> ...


There was no injuries on the other vessel and the damage to his boat was about $15,000.

At first the Sea Ray owner claimed the cause of the collision was my fault. Something about my transom got in the way of his bow. That's when the Lawyers got involved.

I had to prove in an court of law that i was operating my vessel safely, and correctly. Let me tell you that a Court goes by the rules of road. 22 1/2 degrees abate the beam means just that in an court of law.

The owner of the Sea ray was cited by the Coast Guard for "negligent Operation."

He was also found liable by an New York court for the damages and injuries which at this time exceed $500,000. His insurance co. has appealed the jury verdict and we are awaiting the case to be heard by the Appellate Court.

It has been 3 1/2 years with no end in site but, we (my Wife, son and myself) are still sailing.


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## yotphix (Aug 18, 2006)

bubb2,
glad to hear that you are all still sailing and I hope that your wife's injury has healed well, though I am aware that one never really fully recovers from such things. Amazing to me that there is any further discussion to be had regarding culpability. It ought to be perfectly obvious, even to an insurance company that the person who caused the incident (that was no accident, accidents don't stem from gross negligence and wanton disregard for life in my view) is liable for damage caused by it.

Anyhow, as you pointed out earlier, lots to learn from this. All the best in the new year,

Paul


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

a terrible frightening story, and yet another condemnation of power boaters. i doubt very much that there's much talk on their forums about all the maniac sailors out there. 
it is a miracle that there was no tragedy beyond personal injuries, which are utterly unacceptable in themselves. but all three of you could have been killed.
and when it moves from the personal to the lawyers and insurance companies, I see red. as far as that individual is concerned he didn't even have to apologise or feel remorse, and the worse that happens if he is found at fault is his insurance goes up.
some days a good shotgun is better than a whole room full of lawyers.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

I notice the original post was a fair while ago.
How did the court case go in the end?

You simply cannot run someone down like that surely, then claim that it is their fault?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Rockter, in a US court you can claim almost anything and it is sadly not unusual for a civil case (non-criminal) to take years and years before it is resolved. It is also sadly normal for an insurance company, which knows they are going to pay out when they do lose, to delay the case as long as they can. That way inflation devalues the amount of the claim, too. Sometimes they get lucky, and the other party goes bankrupt or dies and the case gets dropped, too.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Unfortunately, HS is correct... and due to the way the courts are setup, the costs of defending yourself against any lawsuit is generally paid by the defendant—even if the court throws out the suit or finds it without merit. 

Insurance companies are pretty bad about it...since they try to drag out payment as long as possible, as HS has pointed out. 

BTW guys, you do know that the OP is over four years old and the most recent post on this thread besides your two is a year old, right??


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

sailingdog said:


> Unfortunately, HS is correct... and due to the way the courts are setup, the costs of defending yourself against any lawsuit is generally paid by the defendant-even if the court throws out the suit or finds it without merit.
> 
> Insurance companies are pretty bad about it...since they try to drag out payment as long as possible, as HS has pointed out.
> 
> BTW guys, you do know that the OP is over four years old and the most recent post on this thread besides your two is a year old, right??


Good grief SD, can't you start the new year off by lightening up with your forum police tactics? The OP resurrected HIS own post. Does that constitute a breach in the forum posting etiquette - as you see it?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Ummm TB, the original post is by Bubb2, who hasn't posted in this thread since, January 6, 2007...  So, exactly how did he resurrect his thread??


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

If bubb 2 is still around, I'd like to hear how your insurance company did in helping you out.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

> Ummm TB, the original post is by Bubb2, who hasn't posted in this thread since, January 6, 2007...  So, exactly how did he resurrect his post???


I realize bubb2 last posted to this thread a year ago - which he had started on Sept. of 03. I can read the dates just fine without your support thank you .

It just seems that you stand poised to attack anyone who may choose to add comments to a post over a few months old. I personally see nothing wrong with this. I do however, with no disrespect to you as a person, feel that you could lighten up a bit - as tough as this may be to compulsive, anal retentive types.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

TrueBlue said:


> with no disrespect to you as a person, feel that you could lighten up a bit - as tough as this may be to compulsive, anal retentive types.


Now you did it Blue, your going to end up on that Grumpy thread if you don't watch it.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I know it tjk - and quite frankly don't care if I do - probably deserve to be.

Just got out of the Hospital last night - damn 10 mm Kidney stones really gnaw at a person's disposition.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

TrueBlue said:


> I know it tjk - and quite frankly don't care if I do - probably deserve to be.
> 
> Just got out of the Hospital last night - damn 10 mm Kidney stones really gnaw at a person's disposition.


Ouch, Ok, you get a free pass. You are entitled to be as grumpy as you want. Hope you are recovering quietly.
Did everything pass ok?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

That's not a particularly good start to the new year... I hope you're feeling better... and less grumpy... BTW, I wasn't attacking anyone... just asking them if they were aware of the dates..


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Had to have a lithotrypsy - since the gnawly buggers were too big to pass through a 4 mm ureter. That involved an OR procedure under general anetheshia, where a device blasted them to bits using ultrasonic frequencies through water. 

Some particles remained for a few days though - had to be readmitted overnight with morphine to lessen pain. That has got to be the most pain any human can endure - glad it's all passed out of the system.

Definitely drinking lots and lots of water from now on.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Actually, I think gall stones are worse than kidney stones..  Don't ask me how I know. Morphine is your friend in either case. Get well soon.


TrueBlue said:


> Had to have a lithotrypsy - since the gnawly buggers were too big to pass through a 4 mm ureter. That involved an OR procedure under general anetheshia, where a device blasted them to bits using ultrasonic frequencies through water.
> 
> Some particles remained for a few days though - had to be readmitted overnight with morphine to lessen pain. That has got to be the most pain any human can endure - glad it's all passed out of the system.
> 
> Definitely drinking lots and lots of water from now on.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I was given morphine to deal with my cancer and then again with my heart. morphine is an interesting drug, I don't think it really takes away the pain; it is just you don't care about the pain anymore.


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

Regardles of the dates on the thread, the OP has an excellent point and i think this was a good one to be resurrected... especially with all the "new joes" around here recently. The point of his post should not be taken lightly. This is the exact reason that Jayme and i took our red cross, basic keel and coastal nav classes after being stuck in the deadly lightning storm. She only had experience sailing with me before the storm and it was plenty to open our eyes to the big picture. Now if we were caught in a situation like the OP's or a storm, i know that we BOTH could handle it. Of course there is always room for improvement... we want to take more classes and put more miles under the keel. I was never a boyscout but "be prepared" has stuck with me.

TB... Glad you're doing better! I can't imagine what that must have been like... hope i never know.


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

mea culpa. the thread was pointed out to me in a pm, and i thought i had just overlooked it 

very timely though, given the recent discussions.

sorry to hear about the kidney stones. despite the advances of modern medical technology, pain management still seems to be in the dark ages. how many people out there live in pain and die in pain? far, far too many on both counts.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

The dates on the posts for this thread are (1) irrelevant because it's a story worth revisiting, and (2) make sense given that bubba2 was giving an update to his 2003 post. How does one revive an old thread -- use the search function. And bubba is still around. He recently posted in the WWII thread. Beyond that, it doesn't matter who posted what or when does it?


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Maybe not in this case, but you have seen them, they are out there.
The threads that have not been visited in many many years by an original poster that has long since disapeared.


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

SailorMitch said:


> The dates on the posts for this thread are (1) irrelevant because it's a story worth revisiting, and (2) make sense given that bubba2 was giving an update to his 2003 post. How does one revive an old thread -- use the search function. And bubba is still around. He recently posted in the WWII thread. Beyond that, it doesn't matter who posted what or when does it?


SailorMitch... i totally agree but i want to point out (with all due respect) that your point #2 is wrong... bubba2's update was from Jan 2007... not 2008, so actually Hoffa dug the thread up..... but that doesn't really matter because your #1 point is spot on. I would probably never had seen this if Hoffa didn't dig it up.... and it was a point well taken.

One thing about the search function... we ask newbies to search for info before starting a new thread... but also critisize them for posting on old threads.... a bit of a contradiction i think.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Since we're side-tracked a bit, I'll weigh in an agreement with Joel and Mitch, hopefully not offsetting to their digestion, who both make an important distinction. The last few months have seen a marked decrease in responses to such threads as, "High tide at Hell Gate on 28 August 1973", which probably never got an answer in the first place. (g)

Many of the older posts, such as this one, bear re-reading and repeating. Sometimes, even new details are available, but in most posts it is found that little has changed and the old posts are still quite relevant. The recent post on water turbines could have benefited from reviving a previous post on water generators, one less than a year old. While the old post revealed that no one here has any real experience with towed generators, the new post revealed much the same before diverting to a discussion of wind generators. Sailnetters of some seniority could merely note the re-emergence of the thread and that they'd probably already expressed themselves upon it, and move along. Newer members, not privy to the older post's existence, and with knowledge of the subject matter, could add to the older thread and the enlightenment of the senior members.

The advantage to this, aside from any thread discipline that might tangentially occur, is that the researching sailor, probably new to sailnet, would not have to open 35 seperate threads on the danforth anchor. And, contrary to the techno-geeks presunptions, there isn't that much new under the sun. My 1973 compass works just as well as the latest offerings from Ritchie and others.

Now that I've thoroughly violated my own dictum, I'll return to the thread at hand and remark that the story told is an excellent example of the practise of seamanship, if not life. 99% of what was done and experienced, was seaman-like and obviously vastly enjoyable. There was just that one moment's inattention, and perhaps not even that, and disaster struck. I've read few better told descriptions of the necessity for continuous vigilance or proper, prior, preperation. I should read it again in a year or so, to good effect.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Court said:


> If bubb 2 is still around, I'd like to hear how your insurance company did in helping you out.


To whom it my concern, Bubb2 is alive and well, just older and grayer.

To answer some of the questions raised, The appellate court overturned the jury verdict based on case law not on the merits of the case. They ruled that we error'd on how the medical records were entered into the court record. We go back to trial on 1/22/08.

At the very beginning, surveyor's from both insurance co's (his and mine) were crawling all over the boat. They were all promising that they were going to take care of "everything" and i didn't have to worry about thing's.

The other guy's co. offered $ 6,000 to settle entire claim. My own co. offered $22,000. That's when I got my personal attorney and my own surveyor involved. After much back and forth with the other's guy Insurance Co. We settled the property damage part for $49,000. Which in the end didn't cover all the damage to the boat. In the term's of the settlement they didn't admit to liability.

My Wife has permanent nerve damage (4 crushed disks) and has loss partial function of one hand and leg as a result of the collision. She spent 3 months out of work and is still under Dr's care and receiving therapy. She has pain everyday of her life. She is an hospital nurse and subject to random drug tests. Therefore she cannot take the pain killers the Dr orders she can only take over the counter meds.

When we asked the other guy's co. to pay for my wife's medical expenses and her time out of work , thats when they claimed that the collision was my fault. The question of who was at fault was decided by the courts. That ruling is not in question at this time and was not appealed. The only question to be resolved is how much is my wife hurt and how much is proper compensation.

My insurance co has had attorney in the background all along the way. He has been very helpful to our personal attorney.

i hope answers some of the questions that some of you had. I am sorry that i must be vague but we are going back to trail on 1/22/08 and i must be careful of what i say.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Bubb2-

Good to hear from you.. I hope you have a speedy and quick resolution to the legal side of this mess. I find it somewhat ridiculous that your wife can't take the proper medication to alleviate her pain due to her work. It would seem to me that her being able to take pain medication would be a a reasonable accommodation under ADA—considering the permanent nature of her injuries. 

As for the other guy... he's a swine... he should step up and do the right thing... and admit it was his fault. I don't see how, under the COLREGS, or under common sense for that matter, it could possibly be your fault. Their boat hit yours at such a speed that it went up and over your boat, and I don't see how you could have possibly avoided a collision with them moving at that rate of speed. 

Fairwinds and following seas to you.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

What a pain in the ass.<O</O
I hope you get this resolved soon so that you may get on with your lives.
And I hope that somehow your wife is able to alleviate some of the pain that she has to deal with, it all sounds terrible.<O</O
<O</O


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

sailingdog said:


> Bubb2-
> 
> Good to hear from you.. I hope you have a speedy and quick resolution to the legal side of this mess. I find it somewhat ridiculous that your wife can't take the proper medication to alleviate her pain due to her work. It would seem to me that her being able to take pain medication would be a a reasonable accommodation under ADA-considering the permanent nature of her injuries.
> 
> ...


Dog, please reread my posts. The other guy was found to be at fault by the court. That ruling stands and is not in question at this time.

Do you realty want a Critical Care Nurse taking care of you who is higher than a kite on an controlled narcotic pain killer?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I've dealt with a lot people in intense chronic pain... who were on a some really powerful narcotic pain killers... and generally, if their doctor's have done the job right, they're not high... just not in pain. The human body's ability to metabolize narcotics is very unusual and the more severe the pain level, the more the body can metabolize safely.

As an example, my late wife was on Fentanyl transdermal patches, and the dosages she was on should have knocked her unconscious under normal circumstances... and would be lethal to most people-but because of her cancer, she was able to metabolize and use that level of medication without being "high as a kite". Your wife really should talk to a doctor who specializes in the pain management treatment.



bubb2 said:


> Do you realty want a Critical Care Nurse taking care of you who is higher than a kite on an controlled narcotic pain killer?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The hospital rules against meds are probably based on larger issues of liability and insurers and lawyers, not to mention lawyers or hospital ownership chains and their larger policies. The problem with varying them is, ADA or not, who is to say what is acceptable and for who? So setting an absolute bar to the use of the meds is not really unreasonable, given the practical issues. 

"and I don't see how you could have possibly avoided a collision with them moving at that rate of speed. " Don't confuse this with issues of who is at fault, I'm not commenting on that. But how does a 6-knot sailboat avoid any high speed ferry, barge tow, or containership? Well, at six knots you are moving some 6000 feet in ten minutes, 600 feet in one minute, if you "come about hard! NOW NOW NOW!" a mere five seconds before a collision, you'll shave thirty feet off your location and that's all it takes to miss--versus be hit--by a thirty foot wide speedboat.

I wasn't there, I didn't see it, I don't question it. I'm only saying that even a slow sailboat CAN duck the path of a faster object--if you can see it and anticipate it in the first place. Sometimes you simply can't see it, like when jetskis start criss-crossing under your bow. (Hmmm...Isn't that what freighters and barge tugs say about those big slow sailboats, too?)

Good luck, Bubb2.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

hellosailor said:


> I wasn't there, I didn't see it, I don't question it. I'm only saying that even a slow sailboat CAN duck the path of a faster object--if you can see it and anticipate it in the first place.


Hello Sailor,
The only problem I see with that is, even if you do see them coming, I will always give them the benifit of the doubt. If I see a power vessel approaching me, I always think to myself, "He has got to see us, Right?"
I mean, I've got a stick 40' in the air with 2 big white things hanging from it!
How could they not see that?
By they time I go hard over, its probably too late. And what if the other guy does see you and is going to pass close, I go hard over and in fact put us even more in jepordy? How can we anticipate what the other guy is doing or thinking or where he might turn next?

I don't know anything other than this whole thing really sucks. Not trying to argue your point. The only thing I know is that I have learned a valuable lesson; The other guys don't always see a 40' mast with sails on them, Don't know how they could miss it, but apparently they do.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

From the OP...


> The Sea Ray hit us port stern at an esimated 20 to 30 kts. My wife was thrown into the open compantion way. She saw the Sea Ray''s hull and props go over her head. She was saved by the binnacle and cabin top.


Given that most sailboats are lucky to make 6-8 knots... exactly how was he supposed to avoid this... He was basically rear-ended by these guys...and under the COLREGS that's clearly the fault of the powerboat that did the ramming.

I'm not saying that a sailboat can't avoid collisions... but you have to 1) see the other boat coming, and 2) have time to react. This one came out of nowhere... probably because it was concealed by the larger 80' motor yacht, and was probably doing more than 30 knots to go airborne like that.

Based on the numbers you provided, and assuming it was only doing 30 knots... it was 3000 feet away one minute prior to the accident. In a crowded harbor, 3000 feet is a long way away.



hellosailor said:


> "and I don't see how you could have possibly avoided a collision with them moving at that rate of speed. " Don't confuse this with issues of who is at fault, I'm not commenting on that. But how does a 6-knot sailboat avoid any high speed ferry, barge tow, or containership? Well, at six knots you are moving some 6000 feet in ten minutes, 600 feet in one minute, if you "come about hard! NOW NOW NOW!" a mere five seconds before a collision, you'll shave thirty feet off your location and that's all it takes to miss--versus be hit--by a thirty foot wide speedboat.
> 
> I wasn't there, I didn't see it, I don't question it. I'm only saying that even a slow sailboat CAN duck the path of a faster object--if you can see it and anticipate it in the first place. Sometimes you simply can't see it, like when jetskis start criss-crossing under your bow. (Hmmm...Isn't that what freighters and barge tugs say about those big slow sailboats, too?)
> 
> Good luck, Bubb2.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

sailingdog said:


> From the OP...
> 
> Given that most sailboats are lucky to make 6-8 knots... exactly how was he supposed to avoid this... He was basically rear-ended by these guys...and under the COLREGS that's clearly the fault of the powerboat that did the ramming.
> 
> ...


Dog, you hit the nail on the head.

Until the Capitan of the 80ft motor yacht was deposed we didn't know where the Sea ray came from. He testified that Sea Ray came up on his port side (which we would have been blind to) crossed his bow missing him by about 50ft. The Sea Ray traveled another 175 to 200 yards and hit us. 200 yards=600 feet. Depending on the speed of the Sea Ray we had 12 to 18 sec. to react if we had seen the Sea Ray at our first opportunity. Who really does look behind them that often? Also another factor, was we were close enough to the George Washington bridge (I 80) to hear the traffic. I believe that is why we didn't hear the Sea Ray engines sooner. Over the years I have asked myself time and time again could I have done anything to prevent this. If I had seen the Sea Ray sooner and made a turn would we been hit broadside? I am sure we would have been cut in half if we took the hit on the beam. I feel secure in my knowledge that I just didn't have the time to prevent this. I could not live with myself knowing that I could have done something to prevent my wife injuries and did nothing!


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

bubb2 said:


> Dog, you hit the nail on the head.
> 
> Until the Capitan of the 80ft motor yacht was deposed we didn't know where the Sea ray came from. He testified that Sea Ray came up on his port side (which we would have been blind to) crossed his bow missing him by about 50ft. The Sea Ray traveled another 175 to 200 yards and hit us. 200 yards=600 feet. Depending on the speed of the Sea Ray we had 12 to 18 sec. to react if we had seen the Sea Ray at our first opportunity. Who really does look behind them that often? Also another factor, was we were close enough to the George Washington bridge (I 80) to hear the traffic. I believe that is why we didn't hear the Sea Ray engines sooner. Over the years I have asked myself time and time again could I have done anything to prevent this. If I had seen the Sea Ray sooner and made a turn would we been hit broadside? I am sure we would have been cut in half if we took the hit on the beam. I feel secure in my knowledge that I just didn't have the time to prevent this. I could not live with myself knowing that I could have done something to prevent my wife injuries and did nothing!


the safety regs exist for a reason: to prevent this kind of thing from happening. it failed in your case not because the regs were faulty or you were faulty but because the rules were ignored by the other guy - in fact, he likely didn't know them at all.  

there are a line of bouys you must follow when transiting victoria harbour (to keep out of the way of float planes). "keep to right" is painted on them with a pointing arrow. i guess they are worried that some skipper would be confused by the word starboard.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

sd-
"exactly how was he supposed to avoid this... " I thought I had made it clear enough: I wasn't there, wasn't disputing who the victim or the wrongdoer were, I was only addressing the issue that a sailboat CAN make a significant difference in only five seconds. OK, maybe eight if you figure you need SOME reaction time.
Now, we hear for the first time that the missile only appeared some 15? seconds before it hit. That's awfully hard to avoid. Me, I tense up and look around whenever I hear loud engines, but then again, someone at a helo base in Alaska did ask me "What are you, Radar?" because I heard the inbound helis before anyone working there did. (I figure, that's just because being close to the engines has made them deaf.) 
Heck I've seen gray cars on average gray pavement "come out of nowhere" on a gray day, I'd have no doubt the missile was simply going too fast for the conditions--and everyone involved knew it.
My friend's father drove a gasoline truck in a major city for 30 years after he got out of WW2. The company told him "If you have an accident, one accident, you're fired. It doesn't matter whose fault the accident is, your job is to avoid it because there's a five thousand gallon bomb behind your seat. Got that?" And for thirty years, he never had an accident. At home or at work. Of course, he didn't have to dodge speedboats...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Three points: 

The COLREGS clearly specify that a boat should be moving at a speed that is considered safe and reasonable for the conditions... In a crowded harbor 30 mph is not safe and reasonable generally.

The COLREGS clearly specify that a boat overtaking another has a duty to stay clear of the other boat. I don't know if Bubb2 was under sail or power, and in reality, it doesn't really matter, since it sounds like the Sea Ray was behind him and probably considered to be overtaking him.

Finally, the COLREGS state that boats should do everything possible to avoid a collision, regardless of right of way issues. There was nothing IMHO that Bubb2 could have done to avoid this collision. IMHO, there was plenty the SeaRay could have done to prevent it—turning to either port or starboard or slowing were all possible options. It doesn't sound like he tried to do any of the above. 

Finally, Bubb2's point about watching behind you is very valid... most people don't watch behind their boat as carefully as to the sides and forward, unless they are in moving in reverse.


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## lbdavis (Apr 23, 2007)

Jeesum Crow, bubb. I just read this story for the first time after you linked someone here from the Buzzards Bay fiasco.

Wow.

Has there been any legal resolution for you and your wife, yet?


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## surftom (Sep 19, 2006)

Also just saw this - A very emotional read for me. I hope that everything is working out well for you and especially your wife. The purpose of my post is to commend you on your writing style - You should think about doing more of it.
Strange to say that on a sailing forum, but then again sailing and writing seem to go hand in hand. How's that for a tangent?

Tom


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

It is finally over and the check is in the bank. I am not at liberty to discuss the amount due to the terms of the settlement. But it is substantial.

The one thing that still hurts is the other side was aware of Courtney's circumstances and delayed and delayed some more. If we had the money a year ago we could have done something real nice for Courtney.


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## TxLnghrn (Apr 22, 2008)

Your family has had more than it's sure of trials and tribulations. I'm glad that you can at least put this one behind you now.

Michael


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

They're dirty rat bastards... I hope hell has a special spot reserved for them. Glad its all over with.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

bubb2 said:


> It is finally over and the check is in the bank. I am not at liberty to discuss the amount due to the terms of the settlement. But it is substantial.
> 
> The one thing that still hurts is the other side was aware of Courtney's circumstances and delayed and delayed some more. If we had the money a year ago we could have done something real nice for Courtney.


Glad it's finally over, but very sorry about the timing.

You can skipper my ship anytime, Captain.


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> sd-
> "exactly how was he supposed to avoid this... " I thought I had made it clear enough: I wasn't there, wasn't disputing who the victim or the wrongdoer were, I was only addressing the issue that a sailboat CAN make a significant difference in only five seconds. OK, maybe eight if you figure you need SOME reaction time.
> Now, we hear for the first time that the missile only appeared some 15? seconds before it hit. That's awfully hard to avoid. Me, I tense up and look around whenever I hear loud engines, but then again, someone at a helo base in Alaska did ask me "What are you, Radar?" because I heard the inbound helis before anyone working there did. (I figure, that's just because being close to the engines has made them deaf.)
> Heck I've seen gray cars on average gray pavement "come out of nowhere" on a gray day, I'd have no doubt the missile was simply going too fast for the conditions--and everyone involved knew it.
> My friend's father drove a gasoline truck in a major city for 30 years after he got out of WW2. The company told him "If you have an accident, one accident, you're fired. It doesn't matter whose fault the accident is, your job is to avoid it because there's a five thousand gallon bomb behind your seat. Got that?" And for thirty years, he never had an accident. At home or at work. Of course, he didn't have to dodge speedboats...


8 seconds.....at 3 knots SOG and factoring in a reaction time. That's akin to a turtle crawling across a busy street. The ones that make it don't avoid the cars. They plod on as best they can, and either the cars avoid them, or random chance plays to the turtle's favor. Most of the time, they just lose. The way the courts are, if a sailboat captain tried to take evasive action, he'd probably get blamed for that and have the rules put up to further implicate him.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Seabreeze, refresh my memory. What are you saying is only 8 seconds? Reaction time is under 1/2 second for things like hitting a brake pedal--assuming you are only talking about reaction time, not "huh, what's that?" lack of situational awareness.

One nm is 6,076+ feet, three knots SOG means 18228 feet per hour or fifty feet per second if I've dividing right. (18228/360). 50 fps times even five seconds gives you 250 feet--plenty of clearance for most small craft.

Is that what we're talking about?

Of course, some folks don't see a bus coming in city traffic either. "I don't know where that truck came from or how it hit me" often means a lack of situational awareness--not a lack of clearance.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

HS-

If the wind is blowing in the wrong direction, it is very likely that Bubb2 wasn't able to hear the engine noise of the power boat very clearly and it can often be difficult to tell where such noise is originating from. What little reaction time you might have might easily be eaten up by trying to localize the noise.


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## NorthUp (Sep 14, 2008)

Hellosailor

6076 feet x 3 knots equals 18228 feet per hour.
18228 feet/hour divided by 60 equals 303.8 feet per minute.
303.8 feet/min divided by 60 equals 5.0 feet per second

5 feet/ sec for 5 seconds= not enough clearance at thirty knots in any language!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

You also have to think about what 25 feet of movement means... if it is mostly parallel to the approaching vessel, you may only have changed your actual position relative to the path of the vessel by a foot or two...it would only be really helpful if the 25 feet of movement was perpendicular to the path of the approaching vessel. Given that the powerboat went up and over the transom and into the cockpit and cabintop... my guess would be that any movement was mostly parallel to its course and of little use.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

I would like to clear some things up, When I first heard the other guys engines He was within 15 yards of our boat. The Sea Ray does exhaust under the water and are know as "quiet boats." Second, we were close enough to the George Washington bridge to hear the traffic, which I believe masked the boat engines until he was very close. Like I said in my first post, When I first heard his engines, I jumped up on the starboard cockpit seat and saw him coming and only had time to yell to my wife to jump. I saw the bow of his boat with a danforth anchor in the bow roller tear threw my back stay on the port side of my boat where my wife was and the next thing I knew I was in the water. I all happen in about the time it took to read this post. maybe less.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks for clarifying the situation you went through.


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> Seabreeze, refresh my memory. What are you saying is only 8 seconds?


sd-
"exactly how was he supposed to avoid this... " I thought I had made it clear enough: I wasn't there, wasn't disputing who the victim or the wrongdoer were, I was only addressing the issue that a sailboat CAN make a significant difference in only five seconds. OK, maybe eight if you figure you need SOME reaction time.

Your own words, as in making a significant difference in only five seconds. OK, maybe eight...


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

Mike,

Blessed be to you and yours. 
(I suggest, respectfully of course, that you offer the Sea-Ray pilot a "day of relaxed cruising" on your boat... )

"_hey, whys that line wraped around my ankle anyway_?"


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Thank you Paul,

For fear of criminal charges I will not be sailing with the Sea Ray pilot. I trust you understand.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Umm... you're a bit confused.. you're quoting HS, not me...


seabreeze_97 said:


> sd-
> "exactly how was he supposed to avoid this... " I thought I had made it clear enough: I wasn't there, wasn't disputing who the victim or the wrongdoer were, I was only addressing the issue that a sailboat CAN make a significant difference in only five seconds. OK, maybe eight if you figure you need SOME reaction time.
> 
> Your own words, as in making a significant difference in only five seconds. OK, maybe eight...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Bubb2-

Probably a very wise idea..


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Jeez Bubb. That's crazy. I'd heard a couple of mentions about this from you and others but never could find the thread.

This is one reason old threads should never die - at least the great ones. There is a lot to learn here.

I'm very thankful you guys made it through alright. When you were talking about being in the water and hearing your kid cry (I think I know which kid) and not seeing your wife as the boat moved away - holy crap, dude. That's scary.

Bubb, I thank God that I know you and that I've sailed with you. You are a fine dude. Seriously. And you've got one hell of a family. Thanks for having me and my family as crew.

I hope to do a delivery with you one day. It will be an honor.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Hey Smack, Yes it was Michael who was the only kid with us that trip and he was 6 at the time. He was in the cabin playing with his gameboy when the crash happen. He did not have his life jacket on at the time. That's what sent me into the heeber jeebers. I thought he was in the Hudson river without a life jacket and I couldn't find him, but I could hear him.

Our boat got knocked down by the impact, My wife says she saw Michael flying tough the air inside the cabin of our boat. That he hit the ceiling which was then in the place where the settee he was sitting on was a second before. 

You have met Michael and you know that he is kind of matter of fact when he talks. That Day when I was climbing up the boarding ladder of our boat to get back on board, I got my head and shoulders above the stern and Michael says "I am glad you are back Dad, my head hurts." God bless him!

It was then that I kind of just plopped into the cockpit as I had been in the water for 10 min's or so swimming and trying the best I could to keep as close to our boat as I could.

You learn what family is all about at times like that.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Bubb2,

I can't imagine something like that happening, I'm glad you and your family are okay [edit - I just re-read this thread and did not know your wife had been hurt badly until just now]. One question, you touched on it but I'm curious, what were the other people doing ? I mean did they just sit there on their Sea Ray and watch all of this unfold, did they come over and talk to you when you got back to the boat, just sit there and wait, leave, what did they do ? [edit #2 - I understand if you can't answer this because of the court case]


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

wind_magic said:


> Bubb2,
> 
> I can't imagine something like that happening, I'm glad you and your family are OK [edit - I just re-read this thread and did not know your wife had been hurt badly until just now]. One question, you touched on it but I'm curious, what were the other people doing ? I mean did they just sit there on their Sea Ray and watch all of this unfold, did they come over and talk to you when you got back to the boat, just sit there and wait, leave, what did they do ? [edit #2 - I understand if you can't answer this because of the court case]


I am free to answer things now that I could not comment on a few years ago, The legal stuff is over.

My wife says that immediately after the crash the Sea Ray was stopped about 40 yards in front of our boat and she could see into the rear of the boat. She saw the boat owner come out of the cabin and go to the helm. He yelled back to my wife that he was OK and restarted his engines. He started to leave. My wife yelled back to him, "I can't find my Husband."

Thats when she went below to make a radio call to the Coast Guard. She came back on deck. I was yelling "I am over here" while the boat and I were moving further apart from each other. I get my wife attention and she yells to the other boat That I am over there help him. They do not, in fact they move their boat about 200 yards away and just sit there. My wife was able after much trouble to bring our boat back around and pick me up.

I should say, that when I was in the water, when I first yelled to my wife, our dog (Meg) a lab come out of nowhere swimming to me. She was sitting with me just before the crash and she was thrown overboard also. She was good company to have during those min's.

Durning these min's the Capt. of the lagre Motor yacht that was behind us was on the radio with my wife and in fact had his eyes on me and was able to tell my wife where I was.

Once I got back on board The Sea Ray came along side and said "Since everyone is OK, I am going." I told him the Coast Guard is on the way. He said "You called the cops?' Once the Coast Guard got there they separated us and I never saw him again until we got to court.

This is the funny part, He testified in court that his steering was damaged and he could not help me while I was in the water. My lawyer reminded him that he drove his boat home about another 30 miles after he was released by the Coast Guard. Then he said it was to Dangerous to help as he was afraid that he might collide with my boat. My lawyer asked him just how much more damage did you think you could do? Yep, He was a Stellar witness.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Talk about a dumb SOB with no sense of responsibility or accountability... what a moron...IMHO, the dumb bastard perjured himself.


> This is the funny part, He testified in court that his steering was damaged and he could not help me while I was in the water. My lawyer reminded him that he drove his boat home about another 30 miles after he was released by the Coast Guard. Then he said it was to Dangerous to help as he was afraid that he might collide with my boat. My lawyer asked him just how much more damage did you think you could do? Yep, He was a Stellar witness.


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