# Oyster is closing its doors



## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

So another marque 'bluewater' yacht manufacturer has gone out of business reportedly.

Makes one wonder about the future landscape of the industry.

'Oyster Yachts goes into liquidation' - Yachting Monthly

My subjective opinion (and it is only that is that) is that I found their offerings to be over priced without anything substantial to justify the price tags attached. Others I know will disagree and thats ok 

Essentially it would appear that the the sinking of the Polina Star III has had a significant impact.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

The differential between a one off and a semi custom in the mega yacht market is not a major obstacle to that market. Oysters are thought of being hard to service with quite a number of through hulls and few manifolds which are hard to access and there’s difficult access to machinery that requires routine service. The trademark three vertical hull lights are unappealing to some. Then you have the recent mishaps. So when a prospective buyer listens to his long term captain and sees what his peer group is doing they start to lose their appeal. Baltic, Nautor and the other semi custom houses where all construction is in house seem to be holding their own but it will be real sad if Oyster folds.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

Sad Storie when boat companies go under. Sadder story when the market goes under... 
Dow plunges 1,175 -- worst point decline in history - Feb. 5, 2018


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Chall - given my position on things, you might well imagine that I'm not surprised. And I'm not.

That said, this statement in your posted link is kind of eye-catching...



> Recently, Oyster announced 2017 was a record year, with its order book reaching more than £80 million.


If they really couldn't secure funding against that many orders - something is very, very wrong. Or maybe the math was a bit off in the announcement. Who knows?

As I've said many times. The market is going elsewhere despite the sacred cow thinking.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Maybe between this and the stock market going down, I'll be able to get a steal of a deal on a used Oyster when I buy!

Hopefully they can secure some financing and stay in business though.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Meh. Their prices have long been insultingly outrageous. No surprise that their supply of monied idiots seems to have dried up.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

amwbox said:


> Meh. Their prices have long been insultingly outrageous. No surprise that their supply of monied idiots seems to have dried up.


This comment is not directed at you:

Most people with money have it because they are smart. Smart people often make decisions that seem foolish to poor people.

I just spent $30,000 on a rifle.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

ianjoub said:


> This comment is not directed at you:
> 
> Most people with money have it because they are smart. Smart people often make decisions that seem foolish to poor people.
> 
> I just spent $30,000 on a rifle.


What the heck rifle is this ? 50 cal ?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I certainly don’t know the real story here. However, private quite bought the company in 2008. Shortly, thereafter, I think the brand started losing it’s way. Oyster had a brand that transcended the design itself. They started to cheapen it up, IMO, and got burned.

I also wonder if insurance coverage was insufficient on recent losses and it burned up working capital. 

Imagine being someone who had a $100k+ deposit in that $80m book. You’re going to have some sleepless nights and, even if they eventually get their boats, it will cost even more than they signed up for.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

£80 milliin orders is not much when you're talking 100 foot boats.

This is such a surprise! 

Except... 

Except... 

:|

I wonder how much that one that sink a few years back, keel fell 9ff, affected to company?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

sailforlife said:


> Sad Storie when boat companies go under. Sadder story when the market goes under...
> Dow plunges 1,175 -- worst point decline in history - Feb. 5, 2018


Stupid when you put a BS post up. Grow a brain!

Plus Djia up 500 today.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

ianjoub said:


> Most people with money have it because they are smart. Smart people often make decisions that seem foolish to poor people.
> 
> I just spent $30,000 on a rifle.


There is a very big difference between a wealthy person choosing to spend their money on something they appreciate (like say, a $30,000 collectable), and a wealthy person buying something expensive, not because it is intrinsically worth it (fantastic craftsmanship; unusual design), or because it is rare, or because it has historic value, but because it is a marquis name, fashionable product. I wont dispute that in any of the above cases, the purchase is "worth it" to the buyer; but products can be (and very often are) overpriced for what they are. I think the previous point was that Oyster Yachts are (were?) overpriced for what they are. Making no judgments about aesthetics, I tend to agree. Generally speaking, if you are willing to spend that much on a boat, you can get more for your money elsewhere. And I don't necessarily fault Oyster; the UK is an expensive place to build stuff, and those costs have to be reflected in the price.

And as for your "smart people" statement. I don't know what to think about that. I'm hoping you didn't mean it to sound as obnoxiously arrogant as it sounds. I'll grant you that RICH people often make decisions that seem foolish to poor people. But your statement strongly implies that poor people couldn't possible understand what you smart, rich people do. Ugh.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

In recent years they haven't really built a boat smaller than 60ft with most in the 70-100 ft range. 

So I feel like their yachts haven't been of much interest to your 'average' bluewater cruiser for the most part of a decade anyway. 

As for the older models, we have inspected a couple ( A late 435 and a 45) and they are no doubt well built boats. If your mad keen on a Deck Saloon they also are a reasonabe option, but the price premium attached to the name even when looking at 20 year old boats has always been enough to make me look elsewhere.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Stupid when you put a BS post up. Grow a brain!
> 
> Plus Djia up 500 today.


Easy Mark, most haven't lived through the ups and downs like we have:wink

FWIW that wasn't even a down, way too short lived, but then all the experts say we are in the 9th inning.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

This might be another sign that the monstrous 'roomarans' are where the bigger bucks boating market is heading. They certainly have a luxury level that far exceeds any monohull when you get to the 70 foot plus range. I've even seen circular staircases on those things. Perhaps the husband will miss his sailing, but for sure, most wives will adore the space, comfort and modern conveniences found on the luxury cats.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Husbands won't "miss their sailing" on cats. No one has to miss "sailing" on a cat. What exactly do you think cruising cats do out there?

Apart from that - you're right. The new boat market is definitely shifting toward multihulls...for more space, more "luxury", and better sailing.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

sailforlife said:


> What the heck rifle is this ? 50 cal ?


Yes, .50 BMG semi auto.

Barrett M107A1 29" barrel $12.8k

Knight's Armament AN/PVS-30 Night Vision Sight $11.3k

March Optics High Master 10-60x56mm Tactical Knob Rifle Scope $3.8k

3 spare magazines $525

500 Rds ammo $2500


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

capta said:


> This might be another sign that the monstrous 'roomarans' are where the bigger bucks boating market is heading. They certainly have a luxury level that far exceeds any monohull when you get to the 70 foot plus range. I've even seen circular staircases on those things. Perhaps the husband will miss his sailing, but for sure, most wives will adore the space, comfort and modern conveniences found on the luxury cats.


I was wondering about something like this too, except not just the big cats. Ive only been aboard one Oyster, about 45ft, it was a nice boat, very seaworthy design. She had 2 watertight bulkheads, making for a total of 3 compartments. It gave me the impression she should be able to withstand one compartment flooding. Pretty rare feature on a smallish recreational sailboat Not too many off the shelf monos can do this. I saw marketing material offering factory retrofit options for high latitude sailing. It seems like paying top dollar for an Oyster would make a bit of sense for getting to the tough to get too places, they should be up to the task.

In recent years, aluminum construction has really improved quite a bit and I am seeing a decent number of really nice custom aluminum monos. Aluminum is no doubt what I would want for highish latitudes if I could afford it.

So maybe some of their moderate latitude/comfort oriented folks are heading towards big cats. Maybe the expedition cruiser types who at one time might have gone for Oysters are shopping for custom aluminum monos.

Just a theory, but if you lose a few customers to column a, a few to column b, some to c and some to d, rent goes up, cost of labour goes up, profit might start to get a little thin.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

mstern said:


> And as for your "smart people" statement. I don't know what to think about that. I'm hoping you didn't mean it to sound as obnoxiously arrogant as it sounds. I'll grant you that RICH people often make decisions that seem foolish to poor people. But your statement strongly implies that poor people couldn't possible understand what you smart, rich people do. Ugh.


I didn't mean it to sound arrogant. I am firmly middle class, not rich, and certainly not wealthy. I do not understand a lot of the decisions rich or wealthy people make.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> Ive only been aboard one Oyster, about 45ft, it was a nice boat, very seaworthy design. She had 2 watertight bulkheads, making for a total of 3 compartments. It gave me the impression she should be able to withstand one compartment flooding. Pretty rare feature on a smallish recreational sailboat Not too many off the shelf monos can do this. I saw marketing material offering factory retrofit options for high latitude sailing. It seems like paying top dollar for an Oyster would make a bit of sense for getting to the tough to get too places, they should be up to the task.


Ahmmmm - about that...












> Prospects of saving the yacht - an 18-metre Oyster - which has been the couple's effective home in recent years, are understood to be poor.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

ianjoub said:


> This comment is not directed at you:
> 
> Most people with money have it because they are smart. Smart people often make decisions that seem foolish to poor people.
> 
> I just spent $30,000 on a rifle.


Actually, no. Most people with the sort of money to drop millions of it on an Oyster have it because they were born advantaged, luckily enough. Most people who have the sort of money to buy the other 99.5% of boats are smart, as they were able to make a more meager basis work for them without that sort of cosmic luck. Sure, you have a silicon valley billionaire here and there...but the myth of the "self made man" has always been a comically rare occurrence.

Smart people routinely make decisions that are _objectively_ foolish, just like anyone else.

Bragging on a message board about dropping 30 grand on a rifle isn't something that's going to support the notion of conflating wealth and intelligence.

But what do I know? I'm only an astronaut who moonlights as a brain surgeon when not doing kegstands while wearing a Chinese-made MAGA hat.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

chall03 said:


> In recent years they haven't really built a boat smaller than 60ft with most in the 70-100 ft range.





capta said:


> This might be another sign that the monstrous 'roomarans' are where the bigger bucks boating market is heading. They certainly have a luxury level that far exceeds any monohull when you get to the 70 foot plus range. I've even seen circular staircases


Yes I think this has been their fundimental error.
They haven't been able to compete in the smaller ranges so gave had to creep bigger.
But a inherant failing of a mono hull is you can't see out from the saloon like you can on a catamaran.

The Caribbean is full of cats now. The majority of new builds?

My next boat will be a cat.

Oysters other problem was they were not builders. They had yards l over the world beuiding for them. Remember that insane time they were doibg the 53 in New Zealand? But the 55 was being done somewhere else, like Turkey?

Beneteau/CNB/Janeau/Lagoon has shown you need a production line like Henry Ford.

Very surprising to see oyster go down. Very.

Oh, the ice maker on one I saw was undrr the stairs next to the mast compression post. You needed to get down on your knees to get ice for your cocktail! They weren't as good as some thought.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

For the poster who posted the pic of the sinking boat, damage control featuures aren't a gaurantee, they just improve your odds. They are another layer in the proverbial onion.

Its possible to sink nearly any boat.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Arcb said:


> For the poster who posted the pic of the sinking boat, damage control featuures aren't a gaurantee, they just improve your odds. They are another layer in the proverbial onion.
> 
> Its possible to sink nearly any boat.


I think the point is more that in this case, that specific yacht sinking has played an unfortunate role in the demise of Oyster yachts.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Husbands won't "miss their sailing" on cats. No one has to miss "sailing" on a cat. What exactly do you think cruising cats do out there?
> 
> Apart from that - you're right. The new boat market is definitely shifting toward multihulls...for more space, more "luxury", and better sailing.


Have you even seen a 70 foot plus cat? Obviously fracking not or you wouldn't make such a ridiculous post. They are about as far from a cruising boat as a mega-motor yacht. They are huge luxurious vessels with circular staircases, galleys for the "real" chef to create gourmet meals, walk in freezers, bars on every deck and most have hot tubs for 8 or ten people. I've never seen any of that on a "cruising" boat, have *you*?
At 70+ feet you are kinda leaving the "cruising" boat idea for most folks, monohull *or* catamaran. I've seen very very few 65 foot plus family or retired couple cruisers.
But hey, if you've got the bucks to buy a 70 foot luxury roomaran and go cruise it, then I'll owe you an apology. Otherwise....


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Arcb said:


> Its possible to sink nearly any boat.


Even the "unsinkable" Titanic, it seems. LOL


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

chall03 said:


> I think the point is more that in this case, that specific yacht sinking has played an unfortunate role in the demise of Oyster yachts.


Maybe, but two posters had already made that point and I don't see why my comments about compartmentalisation being a favourable feature for high latitude expedition sailors was quoted. Oyster did appear to be targeting that niche (based on their own marketing material).

My point was, for that kind of work (Greenland, Northwest Passage, Labrador Sea etc.) aluminum boats are maybe becoming more popular due to abrasion resistance and improved construction quality. The increase in popularity in aluminum boats might be impacting any fibreglass boats ability to compete in icey markets.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Best I can tell, any fiberglass boat that rams an iceberg and stays afloat long enough for rescue, has done a damn good job. I'll take one of those! There's a pretty famous steel boat that couldn't......

I don't think the 2010 article posted has anything to do with Oyster's demise, nor rebuts their expedition seaworthiness. The more recent 80 footer that lost her keel might be. It seems it was a manufacturing flaw. Could be they lost their product liability insurance coverage, or it became so expensive, building the boats wasn't profitable.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

capta said:


> Even the "unsinkable" Titanic, it seems. LOL


I call BS!

The Titanic never really sank! I saw the movie. 
Its just in another dimension with the USS Enterprise fighting World War II.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I call BS!
> 
> The Titanic never really sank! I saw the movie.
> Its just in another dimension with the USS Enterprise fighting World War II.


"He's gone crazy!
I've seen this before! 
Grab his tongue.
Shove a stick in his mouth!"....... _Cap'n Ron_


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Okay, some notes on the Titanic. She hit an ice Berg at over 20 knots resulting in a 300 foot long hole puncturing 6 compartments and still took almost 3 hours to sink resulting in the rescue of 700 person's who might not have survived without them.

After that collision SOLAS was formed and some of the first things they tried to do were increase life raft requirements and mandate watertight compartments for all passenger vessels. That was over 100 years ago. Yacht manufacturers (not all, Oyster, Etap, Outbound, Amel for example incorporate variations), are still resistant to the idea.

Catamarans have become popular partially because of safety features that include both redundancy and compartmentalisation. 

Yes, bulkheads brake up the living space, they make interiors feel more cozy, but it will take a very impressive presentation to make me believe they don't make boats safer.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

ianjoub said:


> Yes, .50 BMG semi auto.
> 
> Barrett M107A1 29" barrel $12.8k
> 
> ...


Discloser: I have nothing against guns, grew up in farmland actively hunting everything, skeet shooting, target shooting, and just running around blasting at stuff. To keep on topic, I don't do any of this anymore because we don't own a boat big enough to allow it. Maybe Oyster will be resurrected by building something centered around this - probably a "roomaran".

My question is: what does one use the above gun for? It is completely outside the range of guns I am experienced with, and the gun culture I grew up in. I originally thought it might be for blasting at stuff (one of my favorite uses of a gun), but then the expensive night vision made me wonder. Long range coyote plunking at night? We use to make a contest out of plunking gophers and ground hogs digging in the crop fields from long range with scoped 30-06's.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> Catamarans have become popular partially because of safety features that include both redundancy and compartmentalisation.


Not even partially. While these make good talking points after the fact (or help in convincing oneself), they are not even on people's minds when buying or looking to change in the future.

The real reason many people have moved, plan to move, or wished they could move to catamarans has been both stated and derided in this thread. Those who have been on them understand this, and those who either haven't, or can't, run them down. But it has nothing to do with redundancy and compartmentalization.

Mark


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> "He's gone crazy!
> I've seen this before!
> Grab his tongue.
> Shove a stick in his mouth!"....... _Cap'n Ron_


It was France and those French women. They would drive any Aussie crazy! lol


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Arcb-
Appreciate your comments. Some need to take a tour of my boat or a sister ship. There’s a watertight bulkhead between forepeak/ chain locker and accommodations. Bowthruster is in front of that bulkhead. All tanks (6) are below the sole and integral to the hull which in effect makes to boat double hulled for much of the extent. The tube for the rudder post is overbuilt and heavily braced but also is brought up above the waterline. Risk of sinking from rudder failure is decreased. There are 4 bilge pumps. This is the way they come stock. None of this is remarkable and could be done or something similar in the design of any production boat at marginal expense. It’s not about the money Even in the proverbial white Clorox bottle you are talking about a few percent of total cost. I disagree with you about recent designs. I think many do incorporate this type of thinking.
The mono v cat argument can go on for ever. Would note the target market for current cats is not blue water. Majority go into charter. There are some amazing blue water multis. Outremer, Catana, Chris White boats, Rapido 60 come to mind. Worth doing a passage on one. Totally different experience. Worth living with one. Different set of headaches but still headaches. Think for mom and pop cruisers monos will continue to have appeal but agree multis will be a great market segment.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I call BS!
> 
> The Titanic never really sank! I saw the movie.
> Its just in another dimension with the USS Enterprise fighting World War II.


Well now, this explains quite a bit.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> Not even partially. While these make good talking points after the fact (or help in convincing oneself), they are not even on people's minds when buying or looking to change in the future.
> 
> The real reason many people have moved, plan to move, or wished they could move to catamarans has been both stated and derided in this thread. Those who have been on them understand this, and those who either haven't, or can't, run them down. But it has nothing to do with redundancy and compartmentalization.
> 
> Mark


Respectfully disagree. I would choose a catamaran or a mono partially based on damage control features.

Agree, somebody who has never experienced a vessel in the process of sinking might not consider this, but lots of people would.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

colemj said:


> My question is: what does one use the above gun for?


For me, it is a toy. I will do some target shooting and use it as a decoration in my home.

It is a sniper rifle. I hope I never need to use it for its intended purpose. It is good for long range shooting, in excess of 1 mile. I purchased a bunch of API rounds (*a*rmor *p*iercing *i*ncendiary), which go through almost anything. They will go through 1/2" plate steel like it is cardboard. The night vision optics are for shooting in the dark.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

amwbox said:


> Smart people routinely make decisions that are _objectively_ foolish, just like anyone else.
> 
> Bragging on a message board about dropping 30 grand on a rifle isn't something that's going to support the notion of conflating wealth and intelligence.


_Objectively_? I disagree. Ex: Many would feel that spending $10,000 per night on a hotel suite is foolish. If someone makes $10,000,000 / yr., they are spending less of their salary on a hotel room than you are if you spent $200 per night making $60,000 / yr. That would make you the *objectively foolish* one because your room is far more expensive *to you* that the other guy's is to him.

That wasn't bragging, it was an example. That rifle represents about 2.5 weeks of salary for me. It is no different than a $40k per year guy buying a nicely kitted AR-15 for $1500.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

I was with a buddy who had just sold his tech company. We were at a boat show. He could pay cash for anything at the show. We were in jeans and t-shirts. We went aboard the Oyster asked some questions and were ignored by the Oyster people. 

Admittedly, it's hard to decide who's kicking tires, and who is a possible buyer at any boat show. But the smartest builders and brokers make no assumptions and don't have an attitude. Of course, if you are in the boat business, you've already failed some sort of business intelligence test, which is to only invest your money in things that make money. Boat building, running marina's, fixing boats, is a great way to take a billionaire and convert them to millionaires.

Yea, I know I'm old. I don't like the big windows and raised salon. Although they do it esthetically better than most. 

Still, I'm personally sad whenever a boat builder fails. We maybe arguing about what the right way is to sail, on what kinda boat, incessantly here, but remember, the whole sport is dying. We are dinosaurs fighting over who gets the last meal before the asteroid hits . I think we should never revel in any of these failures.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

How did this turn into both a gun thread and a mono V catamaran thread?

I think SmackDaddy is talking different 70 ft cats than CaptA is.

Necker Belle was Richard Bransons floating catamaran gin Palace with sails rarely used, and there's plenty of those in the Caribbean.... But also there's plenty of large go fast hi twch cats like Gun boats that went bust last year.

I have several friends in plus 55 ft cats that have them cruising just for the speed. They love the +20 knots sailing the Caribbean where I think it's just too fast to enjoy the water.

So there are 2 types, fast and luxurious... And they are both a growing segment notwithstanding Gun boats demise.

I just like the 42 footers with a room with a view and a huge patio out back...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I just like the 42 footers with a room with a view and a huge patio out back...


I'm with you there. That's my personal sweetspot in my next boat as well.

As for what Capta was referring to, I have no idea what a "roomaran" is so I was just going by his "70' plus cat" definition.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> Respectfully disagree. I would choose a catamaran or a mono partially based on damage control features.
> 
> Agree, somebody who has never experienced a vessel in the process of sinking might not consider this, but lots of people would.


I didn't comment on what you would personally choose as features; I just commented on your statement that people choose catamarans on these features. We own a catamaran, and are personal friends with dozens of other catamaran owners, and know exactly why we and others chose a catamaran.

Like I said, the compartmentalization and redundancy things are great features after the fact, but are not at all driving features (or even part of the equation) when considering moving to a catamaran.

If they were, nobody at all would be buying monohulls, and everyone with one would be looking for the fastest way out of it.

Mark


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

ianjoub said:


> For me, it is a toy. I will do some target shooting and use it as a decoration in my home.
> 
> It is a sniper rifle. I hope I never need to use it for its intended purpose. It is good for long range shooting, in excess of 1 mile. I purchased a bunch of API rounds (*a*rmor *p*iercing *i*ncendiary), which go through almost anything. They will go through 1/2" plate steel like it is cardboard. The night vision optics are for shooting in the dark.


Where on earth do you live that would lead you to think you need a .50 calibre sniper rifle???


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> As for what Capta was referring to, I have no idea what a "roomaran" is so I was just going by his "70' plus cat" definition.


It's this type of expensive junk pile that's now for sale at the same price as an oyster 60.

No wonder oyster went broke!

https://www.burgessyachts.com/en/sa...ale/sailing-yachts/necker-belle-00000955.html


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

copacabana said:


> Where on earth do you live that would lead you to think you need a .50 calibre sniper rifle???


I live in Florida, USA. Need is not the case. It is a want. After all, who _needs_ a 600 hp car? Many people want and have them.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> Like I said, the compartmentalization and redundancy things are great features after the fact, but are not at all driving features (or even part of the equation) when considering moving to a catamaran.


For you, or your friends. But it would be a factor for me and many of my friends.

The same as some people are willing to pay top $ for boats like Oysters and Etaps because of additional safety features. Others don't care and some don't know the difference.

That's why I said partially responsible rather than driving force.

I can pretty well gaurantee cats wouldn't be as popular as they are if they were sinking left right and centre, but they are not, which is partially due to damage control features inherent to their design.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

If with you ,Ian, It won't be long before you need it to protect your high ground enclave from the masses wading ashore from their grounded monohulls. (how's that for drift)


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> Holy crap - that's a sobering comparison. Monos are quickly becoming the horse-drawn carriage of yachting.


Does anyone have any stats on what percentage cats make up of the new boat market? I'm not talking about Hobies here, but the equivalent of a keel boat. Smack, you're my go-to-guy for industry statistics; do you know?

I don't doubt those of you have seen first hand more cats in the Caribbean or cruising "out there". But here on Long Island Sound, a cat is still a rare animal. There are none in my marina, nor do I recall seeing any in any of the other nearby marinas or yacht clubs. And I've been to Block Island, Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket, all recently, and I can't recall seeing any catamarans there. None. I have to believe we aren't soooo far behind the rest of the boat-buying world that a trend as strong as what Smack suggests wouldn't be at least making some headway here.

Is this a regional trend? Mostly found in the charter fleet? What are the facts?


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

In my sailing grounds in the N'East you don't see many cats, mostly monohulls.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Necker Belle is quite a sage. Cost Branson over $6mm when he bought her used about 7 or 8 years ago. Then he had her totally refit, which took two years. That kind of refit had to be millions more. Now he’s asking $3mm. 

I saw her the year she became available as a charter. Stunning. Although, she depreciated more than $500k per year. Even at the immense fees for a charter (which are not all profit) it seem unlikely it broke even.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

The lower Great Lakes and St Lawrence have virtually no cruising cats. Moorage and winter storage is by the square foot and not cheap.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There are very few marinas in our neck of the woods that can accommodate a catamaran. 

I know I won’t be moving to one. I’m having a hard time thinking the younger generation can afford the increased acquisition and maintenance costs. There are always exceptions to the rule, but if cats go mainstream, I’m going to stop worrying about younger gen wages and jobs.

I do know several retired, or soon to be retired, sailors that are opting for the cat. One slip neighbor just ordered a brand spanking new Leopard 44. Think it isn’t due until 2019. When I get to that point, I might just get a Trawler, like you’re supposed to. 

On the upside, I have to think used Oyster values just took a hit, if one is shopping. Me, I’m still in Hylas’ corner.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Here in SoCal they are not common either. You will see a couple in each marina, tied up to the end of the docks. Half of them are the Dragonfly or Corsairs though - the "cruising cats" are few and far between.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> I can pretty well gaurantee cats wouldn't be as popular as they are if they were sinking left right and centre, but they are not, which is partially due to damage control features inherent to their design.


I can't take this comment seriously because it implies that cats are flipping or doing otherwise serious mishaps constantly, and water tight bulkheads or redundant engines are the only thing keeping them from being lost altogether. And that this is a reason for their popularity - you might flip 3 or 4 times a year, but at least you won't sink: where do I sign the contract?

FWIW, many of the popular catamarans will sink if holed sufficiently because they displace more than they have structural buoyancy, and many of those water tight bulkheads are no longer that way after installing equipment. Some never were really water tight. Even the ones that do float will generally only do so to a survival level - you won't be sailing it into port for repairs.

Yet people are still buying these models in droves - several year waiting lists for some.

Again, if these features are considered so important to purchasing a boat, why would anyone buy a monohull at all? Obviously these features aren't important to them, or they would only buy a catamaran.

Trust me, it is not why catamarans are selling hand over fist and why many mono builders are now trying to start up catamaran lines. There is a deeper, darker secret for this popularity than that...

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

When we brought our boat home to Mystic CT in 2003, we were the only catamaran I knew of, or seen, in the entire area from Nantucket to New York. Over the 5 years we kept it there, we would increasingly see a catamaran about every time we went somewhere on a weekend, and I knew of 5 of them within the local area when we left.

However, catamarans are not good New England boats. They are difficult to heat, difficult to winterize well because covering them is a nightmare, there are few places to haul out - and hauling out is almost mandatory during those winters, and frankly, running lobster pots is a real pain with two hulls and snaggy appendages 15' apart.

So I wouldn't expect to ever see them take over up their. On the other hand, Oysters didn't take over there either - New Englanders love their more traditional boats with more traditional ease of upkeep. And I am glad of that because it gives New England a very special marine flavor and culture.

California has similar qualities that make catamarans not so good of a boat for the climate, costs, and conditions - particularly Northern Cal.

However, get to warmer climes, or live aboard full-time, and nothing beats a catamaran. Not even an Oyster 60.

South of North Carolina, and they are seen commonly. By the time you hit Florida, one thinks that they are all there is. I'm sitting in the Bahamas surrounded by catamarans. The Eastern Caribe is chocked full of them, and the Western Caribe is getting that way. Any place where chartering is occurring - whether bareboat or private - a catamaran is becoming almost necessary to business.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm having a hard time thinking the younger generation can afford the increased acquisition and maintenance costs. There are always exceptions to the rule, but if cats go mainstream, I'm going to stop worrying about younger gen wages and jobs.


But it is easy for them to afford the acquisition and maintenance of a Jeanneau 54DS?

Many good 38-45' catamarans to be had for <$250,000. That is what ours is worth, and friends just bought a 2005 Leopard 43 in great condition for less. Lagoon 380's go for $150-180,000.

Not to burst your bubble, but catamarans are already mainstream.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> There is a deeper, darker secret for this popularity than that...


Let me guess...skeg hung rudders? ...inner forestay? ...inpoopable cockpit? You're killing me here!


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

No pooping allowed in our cockpit - we have two full heads for that.

The dark secret is that they are simply good boats to sail and live on. They don't sail anywhere near as badly as detractors like to think, and their livability underway and on anchor is way greater than the detractors like to think.

The worse, nastiest passages have us taking hot showers in a full-sized enclosed shower every day, cooking on a level stove/oven without pot holders, eating off plates on a table without fiddles, sleeping in a full queen sized bed without lee cloths, walking around normally without chamfer boards along the edges, and sitting anywhere we want in the boat in any position.

At rough anchorages, we are usually tucked into protection in 5' of water watching the metronomes swing back and forth way behind us. The acres of solar keep us fully charged, heat our water, and run our high output AC watermaker. There are two separate hulls with full living quarters, so we can get privacy and space from each other to do different things - I can play guitar in one hull while Michele naps or reads in another, and it is like being on two separate boats.

But water tight bulkheads have nothing to do with it.

Maybe Oyster will come back with a catamaran - Bavaria and Dufour have now gone that way.

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> I can't take this comment seriously because it implies that cats are flipping or doing otherwise serious mishaps constantly, and water tight bulkheads or redundant engines are the only thing keeping them from being lost altogether. And that this is a reason for their popularity - you might flip 3 or 4 times a year, but at least you won't sink: where do I sign the contract?
> 
> FWIW, many of the popular catamarans will sink if holed sufficiently because they displace more than they have structural buoyancy, and many of those water tight bulkheads are no longer that way after installing equipment. Some never were really water tight. Even the ones that do float will generally only do so to a survival level - you won't be sailing it into port for repairs.
> 
> ...


You are wrong. That is not what I said. I didn't imply anything. You have no idea what my history with cats is. I stopped reading your post after the first two sentences because it wasn't based on my quote.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Here is your quote:



> I can pretty well gaurantee cats wouldn't be as popular as they are if they were sinking left right and centre, but they are not, which is partially due to damage control features inherent to their design.


You are correct that they would not be popular if they were sinking left and right, and also correct that they are not sinking left and right, but then you make the claim that they are not sinking left and right partially because of damage control features of their design - which you early eluded to as water tight compartments and redundant systems, and I assumed you also meant no lead and foam cores, etc.

These features have nothing at all to do with the fact that catamarans are not sinking left and right. Not even partially. They would only come into play if catamarans were flipping or suffering other damages left and right - which they are not.

I can't see how that isn't implied in your statement.

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Like I said, you read it wrong. I personally feel catamarans have the potential to be very safe. The damage control features I listed, in my opinion make them more safe as boats, I am not implying they make up for some inherent flaw.

The last catamaran I skippered (commercial), had 16 watertight compartments, incredible initial stability and redundancy in every single system including a redundant bridge. It was a fantastically safe and efficient boat. If you think you have found a cat hater in me, you misread my post. 

There was no hidden message in my post.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> In 2016 multihulls made up almost half of the overall charter fleet...and about 16% of the US imports. Though the imports were down a bit from that previous year, the domestic production of 30'+ multihulls was *up 71%* - and represented *20% of overall domestic production *(now there's some important stats).


Twenty percent of overall domestic production is a lot higher than I would have guessed.

Holy crap, indeed.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> the domestic production of 30'+ multihulls was *up 71%* - and represented *20% of overall domestic production *


This either needs some context or additional clarity. US production of sail catamarans are almost nil. Endeavor might still make one or two, and then there is Gemini and Mainecat with a single model each still current. Mainecat has only built a couple of their 38. While they would probably pull out the 41 and 30 molds for anyone who wanted one, I'm not aware of them having sold one in a while. After that, I'm only aware of bespoke builders in the US with very low production - single boats every couple of years.

So maybe I'm missing some US builders of quantity? Or maybe the few catamarans produced each year in the US does represent 20% of the domestic production - which would speak alarming volumes about US monohull production going down the tubes.

Mark


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> .......
> There you go. From those who know. I just don't think there are any arguments left.


If that bikini girl said the sun was going to rise tomorrow morning, I would feel a need to double check that.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

La Vagabonde were *given* that expensive Cat in exchange for featuring it on their series. It is an advertisement, plain and simple, and only a fool would take their "glowing endorsement" seriously - they were paid handsomely to talk about how great it is.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Lazerbrains said:


> La Vagabonde were *given* that expensive Cat in exchange for featuring it on their series. It is an advertisement, plain and simple, and only a fool would take their "glowing endorsement" seriously - they were paid handsomely to talk about how great it is.


I don't think you have that quite right. Can you show me your evidence of this?


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Australian YouTube couple land a million-dollar deal to sail around the world | Daily Mail Online


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Lazerbrains said:


> Australian YouTube couple land a million-dollar deal to sail around the world | Daily Mail Online


Yeah, I've seen that article. And here is what it says regarding the boat...



> -They have just landed a million-dollar yacht deal, from February 2017
> -The photogenic pair have just landed a million-dollar luxury yacht deal, which will replace their existing boat, known as La Vagabonde, from February 2017.
> -From February 2017, the couple will have access to a million-dollar 45ft Outremer yet-to-be-built catamaran. Following a totally chance meeting with a manufacturer of luxury vessels in Los Roques, the couple landed the incredible deal.


Where does it say...



Lazerbrains said:


> La Vagabonde were *given* that expensive Cat in exchange for featuring it on their series.


"Having access..." to a boat and "landing a deal" on a boat for marketing purposes or whatever else is very different than being "given" a boat.

The bottom line is that they worked out a deal that seemed to take a few months. And though I don't recall Riley ever giving specifics on that deal in their videos (I've watched them all), from my recollection it isn't free for them. It sounded to be more of a multi-year charter deal at some agreed rate.

So, like I said, I don't think you have it quite right when you say that...



Lazerbrains said:


> La Vagabonde were *given* that expensive Cat.


Maybe you have something else that proves your claim?

PS - And if you're implication here is that they are lying about the cat and its qualities in these videos I've posted - you are beyond my help. You should invest in Oyster.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> They certainly seem to be able to sail - even in F8/F9 conditions off the African coast.


For most of us sailing entails more than reaching and running. Of course, they sail those huge cats to the West Indies and other destinations from where they're built, but I'd bet you dollars to donuts, if conditions don't lend themselves to getting where they want to go under sail, they quickly crank up those diesels to get the job done. However, around here they certainly do not sail them very often, even when the conditions are favorable. I see half a dozen or so of those monsters every week, and it is a rarity to see any sail up. They seem to be chartered strictly as luxury platforms to tour the islands in grand comfort. But any way one looks at them, they are by no means the performance yacht that the equivalent size monohull would be. *That* is what I meant by my comment about the husband.
As for circular staircases, whatever. I haven't seen many on any sort of sailing yacht and they seem a bit pretentious to me.
I know you don't like hearing the negatives about cats for some reason (1.5 to 2 times the dockage and haul out fees to a comparable mono, for instance), and though I'm certainly not prejudiced against multihulls I feel it is very important that those interested in purchasing one understand there is a huge difference between the roomarans and the performance cats. They are as different as a Tahiti Ketch and Mark's boat, Sea Life.
If you had spent 6 years surrounded by catamarans of all sorts, as Nikki and I have, perhaps you might understand the information I am trying to pass on. We have friends and acquaintances that own and sail every sort of cat, from Lagoons to those with wave piercing bows, and even one deep sea ocean racer with a swiveling mast. I've seen them with dual steering stations stuck at the extreme outside of each hull way out in the weather with absolutely no protection, and others with dual cockpit stations from which they can't see anything on the other side of the boat at all. That must be quite difficult when coming into a marina or crowded anchorage, and those are on the better performing boats. 
As you might expect, when it's happy hour and sailors get together, they talk about their boats. After a few beers they talk a bit more honestly. You can argue and ignore my comments on cats and go boldly forth and purchase one, no sweat off my brow, but you might be surprised how many cruising couples that have made the switch, have come to feel they have made a huge, very expensive mistake. Perhaps one or two will post on here? I also know many, many more, who are very happy with their cats. 
But before someone dumps the better side of 300k on any boat, especially one of a sort you have no experience on (like a monohull sailor interested in a cat), I think it would be a good idea to go rent one for two weeks or so and sail her in weather that isn't ideal, or even fun. *That's* when one finds out whether any boat is what one expected her to be. Even a week of Christmas Winds might change your mind, or not. At least that is easily accomplished these days, with most cat designs available for charter, as a bareboat or crewed charter.
But to think that the cats over 70 feet, built for the luxury market, are especially good sailboats on all points of sail is a bit naive. I doubt even the manufacturers state that. They are absolutely *PERFECT* for their market niche, though. Nikki and I would love to operate one for an owner, if we were seeking employment. But just like the captains who sail them around here, if I had to get back to Martinique from the Tobago Cays (140 miles), I'd crank up those big diesels, put up a bit of main for ambiance, point my nose into the wind and get the passengers to their destination as comfortably as possible, in a climate controlled environment. After all, that is exactly what they were designed and built for.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Yep, you're right - it's not a paid endorsement at all..... lol 

And also, everything stated by pretty reality-show sailing people is gospel, right?
I would rather listen to Capta than those two sailing bimbos.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> ....................
> Maybe you have something else that proves your claim?
> 
> PS - And if you're implication here is that they are lying about the cat and its qualities in these videos I've posted - you are beyond my help. You should invest in Oyster.


_"I just don't think there are any arguments left."_

You're creating absolutes to validate your 'current' mission.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Id like to have something like 37 Snow Goose.
I'd love to have a mid 30s Tri.

But that is life...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

RegisteredUser said:


> _"I just don't think there are any arguments left."_
> 
> You're creating absolutes to validate your 'current' mission.


Seriously?

Would you like it better if I typed: "In my mind/opinion/inner-being there are no arguments left"? How do you want me to say it?

If you want to present arguments for the other side of the issue, go for it.

I'm just saying exactly what I mean - *I don't think* there are any convincing arguments left. If you see that statement as an "absolute" then I'm FAR more influential than even I thought I was.

It's really strange to me how things get twisted around here. Looks like I'll just wait for Mark's or Chall's comments and focus on the subject matter.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Would you like it better if I typed: "In my mind/opinion/inner-being there are no arguments left"? How do you want me to say it?
> 
> ...


You do this a lot.
Why wait/look for support?

Go your own way, as we all should.
A large tent, a bunch of chairs, a city/county permit, poster board and marks-a-lot can get you a forum to preach.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

colemj said:


> But it is easy for them to afford the acquisition and maintenance of a Jeanneau 54DS?


Did someone beat you with a monohull, when you were a kid, to make you so testy on anything cat related? There is no way you could get this point from what I posted. It's just snotty.



> Many good 38-45' catamarans to be had for <$250,000. That is what ours is worth, and friends just bought a 2005 Leopard 43 in great condition for less. Lagoon 380's go for $150-180,000.


You've made my point for me, but you can't see it through the veins bulging in your eyes. All those values are substantially higher than comparable monos. Further, in the quote you took of mine, I referred to the younger generation that is finding wages and jobs difficult. They're not paying 6 figures for anything. Way lower cost of entry, with a mono.



> Not to burst your bubble, but catamarans are already mainstream.


Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part, but my point was well understood by the rational. Cats have not become the majority of the market, as noted by the 20% stat above. I don't see the stats flipping around to 80%, given the relatively higher cost.

Before the vein bursts in your head, I have no problem with cats, per se. Maybe with some cat owners.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

So, if we can't get any more spare parts for our Oysters because they are out of business, what type of guns should we carry to protect our boats from thieves?


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

oops, forgot the sarcasm font ^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm certain that SLV disclosed the general terms of their deal with Outremer along the way. It may have been in a Q&A vid. I used to be a devoted subscriber, but they lost me shortly after they made the turn. It wasn't the boat, it was the characters that changed. Got cocky. I unsubscribed.

Anyway, I recall them saying that Outremer essentially sold them the boat, at a heavily discounted price, for a piece of their YouTube revenue. SLV was also required to feature the boat or make reference to Outremer as well. 

My interpretation......... they bought it at or below cost, Outremer held the note, in exchange for some positive press.

I'm not going to do the homework to find it, but I remember that was the deal.

This was done on the heals of the boat manufacturers noting an exponential increase in web searches for the brand and model of boat that the popular YouTube sailing channels were using. It will be interesting to see if it matters.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

ianjoub said:


> oops, forgot the sarcasm font ^^^^^^^^^^^^


IIRC, Oyster offered an optional kevlar crows nest.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

This year took a serious look at flipping into a multi. A switch into an O yacht is horizontal for initial cost. Wife and I have spent time on catana, outremer and voyager. She’s all over the space. So she’s interested. Friend has a 53’ cf one off nz cat. Listening to him he says if you’re going to be even part of the year in New England look around at what slip costs are going to be and make sure to stay under dimensions of two slips. Cost once you get wider than that are prohibitive and many yards won’t let you do that. Accept a new set of constraints due to beam not draft when cruising. In a breeze although your engines are far apart docking is a whole nother thing. Also pay attention to the fairway. His boat won’t fit even on the super large travelift in our yard which easily takes 70’ers so he travels to a railway in another state for bottom work. Even a short haul for him is big bucks and as mentioned storage is by sq.ft.
Many cats have sail drives separated by watertight bulkheads from the rest of the boat. Have had friends tell me service/repair can be horrific when in a seaway.
Those glass panels for one level living are a joy. Until you get pooped.
Friend took a gunboat from northern Cal to Antigua. Throughly enjoyed himself. But the stresses on the boat were hard. He’s in the industry and the other 5 were also. My understanding as hard as a passage is on a mono boat it’s harder on a multi given the greater forces so they spent time fixing stuff. Several friends have told me of steering difficulties with cats. Apparently until very recently the hydraulics on Catanas were an industrial design made to take loads in one direction. But loads with two rudders are in both directions so the hydraulics seals failed. Alignment is critical as is service. I’ve sailed various multis. Other than a Chris White racing tri I did a Bermuda on which had a simple tiller steering is distant and soft. Admittedly you rarely hand steer but it’s particularly boring. God forbid you are forced backwards down a wave. With the exception of a few boats there’s a great chance of rudder failure. 
Everyone is different but some will find the ride of the fast multis disconcerting. You float on the water not in the water. You’re more prone to hobbyhorsing, pounding and short jerky motion. I admit to being clumsy but when on the smaller fast multis I pick up more black and blues.
Agree the mono crowd spend time on what they can do to go faster. The multi crowd talk about how and when to go slower. In any kind of breeze you may start with everything up and be in displacement mode but as AWS increases you’re reefing often down to scraps. Even then often going to fast for comfort or safety. Often these boats aren’t sailed anywhere near their potential. So although these boats have incredible speed potential when not sailed by rockstars passages are about the same for similarly sized monos.
Still as when we picked our current boat I gave her three boats to think about for a possible next.
Chris White Atlantic 49(7)
The 4 series O
The small Catana
She pointed out until east coast infra structure becomes less problematic this will be a headache.
The big mains make us more dependent on all systems working and mean I can’t transport or work on my sails by myself.
She’s not a fan of rotating masts but really likes all the other features of the Atlantic and sees that as a boat we can safely handle as a mom and pop. I really like everything about the boat but the price and the annual budget. I’m not a charter boat fan as don’t share Smackies view about buying disposable boats. I’m not a fan of super fast boats as I have Richard Prior’s view of “stuff”. Weight is a nemesis to performance. 
So for present still mulling it over. 
Given simple physics of a boat entirely dependent on form stability we’re only considering boats 45’ and up so the budget and cost of ownership does enter the equation. 
Things may change but for now will “love the one I’m with.”


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

AMWay: You need to find the book The Millionaire Next Door and get your knowledge up to the 20th Century level. Bitter envy is an awful hard pill to swallow. Life is much easier if you are content with wht you have and not distracted by what others may have.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

outbound said:


> The multi crowd talk about how and when to go slower. In any kind of breeze you may start with everything up and be in displacement mode but as AWS increases you're reefing often down to scraps. Even then often going to fast for comfort or safety. Often these boats aren't sailed anywhere near their potential. So although these boats have incredible speed potential when not sailed by rockstars passages are about the same for similarly sized monos."


You bring up a very interesting point. On my trimaran, I certainly had the potential to cross oceans comfortably @ 10 knots or more, in 20 knots or so of trade winds, but I certainly wasn't letting the mindless machine (vane gear) sail the boat at those speeds. Even worse, when were sailing above 7 or 8 knots we invariably got to the pass in the reef hours before daylight, necessitating heaving to until daylight. That was a real drag.
I've heard tell of sub-50' cruising cats crossing the Atlantic in the ARC at speeds in excess of 14 knots and I can't figure out how anyone could let an autopilot steer at those speeds, in big following seas, and sleep comfortably. I have yet to see any steering station on any of the cats I would be comfortable hand steering for an extended period, say ten or more hours, in a big storm. I never had that problem on the tri, though I did have the storms.
Of course, the other side of the coin is when you have 3 hours till dark and your anchorage is still 50 miles away. Then I'm quite comfortable putting up the full main and the genoa and steering her to that anchorage at an average speed of around 16 knots! That was fun, if not tiring, after 6 days at sea, from New Caledonia to OZ, without a fix.
Every boat is a compromise, as evidenced by this comment my friend, who is a professional cat ocean racer said, "I'd give anything to find a cat as fast as mine that could tack at anything less than 120 degrees."


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> AMWay: You need to find the book The Millionaire Next Door and get your knowledge up to the 20th Century level. Bitter envy is an awful hard pill to swallow. Life is much easier if you are content with wht you have and not distracted by what others may have.


Oh, cute. Who needs formal education when you can pick up a $12 mass market paperback written for the post-literate wannabe's who will get nowhere on it?

If you're basing your worldview on a silly self-help book, it's too late. You're doing it wrong, and you are out of touch with the most basic mechanics of the real world of investment and financial markets. But this is typical of Trumpkins, given their average status as uneducated, impoverished, ruralites. Were I you, I'd sink some time into a basic economics course, or failing that, even the rudiments of personal finance. I mean, damn. You don't know what my portfolio looks like...but I think it applies to most that it's simply a bad idea to trade assets for liabilities. Just an opinion, that. You need to get yourself into a position where you can do this boat thing out of returns instead of blowing your core capital on it.

But, I'm pleased you've taken to reading books instead of burning them for heat. There are after all better ways to fry bologna. Well done! :wink


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

capta said:


> I know you don't like hearing the negatives about cats for some reason....


I don't know what gave you that idea. I certainly don't mind hearing the negatives. But...



capta said:


> If you had spent 6 years surrounded by catamarans of all sorts, as Nikki and I have, perhaps you might understand the information I am trying to pass on.


...I just prefer to hear from those who actually own and sail them. That's all. I've seen lots of cats too over the years. So, you have your strongly held opinions - and that's fine. I respect that. But those opinions are just not as informed as those from this latter group that I've been paying much more attention to lately. They know exactly what they are talking about - first hand.

As you say, it's important for those interested in purchasing a cat (like me) to get the best information possible. Where better to get it than from those who know for sure?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

amwbox said:


> Oh, cute. Who needs formal education when you can pick up a $12 mass market paperback written for the post-literate wannabe's who will get nowhere on it?
> 
> If you're basing your worldview on a silly self-help book, it's too late. You're doing it wrong, and you are out of touch with the most basic mechanics of the real world of investment and financial markets. But this is typical of Trumpkins, given their average status as uneducated, impoverished, ruralites. Were I you, I'd sink some time into a basic economics course, or failing that, even the rudiments of personal finance. I mean, damn. You don't know what my portfolio looks like...but I think it applies to most that it's simply a bad idea to trade assets for liabilities. Just an opinion, that. You need to get yourself into a position where you can do this boat thing out of returns instead of blowing your core capital on it.
> 
> But, I'm pleased you've taken to reading books instead of burning them for heat. There are after all better ways to fry bologna. Well done! :wink


Oh snap.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Out - I'm with you on the issues of dockage. I definitely don't think it makes sense to buy a multi if you're just going to keep it at a marina in one area. I don't plan to do that. I plan to be out sailing - for a couple of years at least. So that's not as much a factor.

As for the other stuff you list, some of it I've heard similar to your retelling from those with cats, other stuff I've heard exactly the opposite.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

Lazerbrains said:


> La Vagabonde were *given* that expensive Cat in exchange for featuring it on their series. It is an advertisement, plain and simple, and only a fool would take their "glowing endorsement" seriously - they were paid handsomely to talk about how great it is.


IIRC They had financing arranged through Outremer and they are paying off the loan. They got a discount but they weren't given a boat. If I had a new Outremer I think I would be pretty giddy too.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> As you say, it's important for those interested in purchasing a cat (like me) to get the best information possible. Where better to get it than from those who know for sure?


That of course is a valid point of view, but on the other hand most cat owners have only experienced their own cat. We on the other hand see almost every cat on the market, close up, in a wide variety of weather and sea conditions, almost daily.
I've been on boats almost all my life and I certainly don't have to be aboard a boat 500 yards from me to see it is making more leeway than headway, or assume that it is must be very uncomfortable ride when a 40 odd foot Lagoon is showing both her keels as she pounds directly to weather, under power, in measly 5 to 7 foot seas and 20 knots of wind!
Or sitting in an anchorage where we are rolling deeply, but slowly, and the cat 50 feet away has a very sharp, jerky motion that I, once again, assume must be terribly uncomfortable. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the majority of the cat designers/manufacturers have never actually anchored or moored a cat with a bridle, because the only attachment points available for the bridle on a great number of these cats, are the bow cleats on the outside of the hulls forward (for tying to the dock, I assume), making the bridle run around the front of the bows to the anchor or mooring buoy, chafing the sh*t out of the lines and wearing on the paint! That leads me to wonder what other idiotic things these designers have incorporated into these boats!
So, believe whomever you wish and dismiss others like me with snarky comments like "They know exactly what they are talking about - first hand." or "your strongly held opinions" and completely ignore the fact that mine are mostly not opinions at all, but first hand, *close up observations*, from over six years of seeing a great many different boats, in a great variety of conditions, out here in the eastern Caribbean.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Did someone beat you with a monohull, when you were a kid, to make you so testy on anything cat related? There is no way you could get this point from what I posted. It's just snotty.
> 
> You've made my point for me, but you can't see it through the veins bulging in your eyes. All those values are substantially higher than comparable monos. Further, in the quote you took of mine, I referred to the younger generation that is finding wages and jobs difficult. They're not paying 6 figures for anything. Way lower cost of entry, with a mono.
> 
> ...


Dude, get a grip and stop the hating. I've owned several monos, and our last one played on my heart to the extent that there is a half-hull model of it hanging on a bulkhead of our current boat.

Your quote was this:


> I'm having a hard time thinking the younger generation can afford the increased acquisition and maintenance costs. There are always exceptions to the rule, but if cats go mainstream, I'm going to stop worrying about younger gen wages and jobs.


I just pointed out that the same people you worry about cannot afford the same costs of the boat you currently own. Or any similar monohull. So it is a bit of disingenuous "worry" to pick and choose what is problematic and what is not. It is very easy to connect those dots, and not in the least snotty - just an attempt at recasting the point in a different, but equal, light.

Of course there are whole categories of boats priced out of whole categories of economic reaches. I disagree that those prices are greater than comparable monos without having a discussion of what you think is a comparable mono. I don't think a 2005 43' catamaran is comparable to a 1978 45' Morgan OI. I also don't think it is comparable to a 2005 43' Beneteau.

The younger generation of days past could never generally afford the $150,000+ boat level. It has nothing to do with catamarans or today's market. They never could period. Even back in the "good old days". That is why they were sailing around in budget boats back then even though pricier ones were making the markets. That is why they are doing so today, and will be doing so tomorrow.

You don't need to worry about them, or the direction of the boat market. If anything, it is easier to get a $100 boat and go cruising today than it ever was. That wasn't a typo missing zeros - the used market is saturated with boats that aren't selling and are being donated or given away. More than it ever has been in the past. One can get a boat for free.

But the fact remains that the market has already spoken. If you don't think that these boats are heading for majority of new boat sales (in 40' and up), you aren't paying attention, or are confused by your locality. As pointed out above, that 20% figure is only the US manufacturing, which hardly exists at all. Europe and Asia, and the Antipodes on the other hand, are cranking out these boats daily, and have orders going 2-4 years in advance, and previously monohull-only companies are now developing multihull lines, and whole new multihull companies are forming every year. Absolutely none of this is happening on the monohull side - in fact, manufacturers are going out of business there. Hence this thread.

Now for sure there are some innovative mono companies doing good business. I'd like a shot at a Pogo or Comet, for example. But these boats are even further removed than catamarans from what most here would consider "acceptable" as a cruising boat.

Cost has nothing to do with it. All new boats cost the same today in relative economics as they did in the past. Catamarans do not cost any more than an equivalent monohull. Even the least expensive new boats cost $150,000+ in any size over 38'. The only cheap boats are old boats, and that has always been the case - and is totally irrelevant here.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

capta said:


> That of course is a valid point of view, but on the other hand most cat owners have only experienced their own cat. We on the other hand see almost every cat on the market, close up, in a wide variety of weather and sea conditions, almost daily.
> I've been on boats almost all my life and I certainly don't have to be aboard a boat 500 yards from me to see it is making more leeway than headway, or assume that it is must be very uncomfortable ride when a 40 odd foot Lagoon is showing both her keels as she pounds directly to weather, under power, in measly 5 to 7 foot seas and 20 knots of wind!
> Or sitting in an anchorage where we are rolling deeply, but slowly, and the cat 50 feet away has a very sharp, jerky motion that I, once again, assume must be terribly uncomfortable. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the majority of the cat designers/manufacturers have never actually anchored or moored a cat with a bridle, because the only attachment points available for the bridle on a great number of these cats, are the bow cleats on the outside of the hulls forward (for tying to the dock, I assume), making the bridle run around the front of the bows to the anchor or mooring buoy, chafing the sh*t out of the lines and wearing on the paint! That leads me to wonder what other idiotic things these designers have incorporated into these boats!
> So, believe whomever you wish and dismiss others like me with snarky comments like "They know exactly what they are talking about - first hand." or "your strongly held opinions" and completely ignore the fact that mine are mostly not opinions at all, but first hand, *close up observations*, from over six years of seeing a great many different boats, in a great variety of conditions, out here in the eastern Caribbean.


Capta, I don't know where to start on this. Most cat owners have only been on their own boat, and you have mucho experience with catamarans because you live in charter territory and see many of them each day?

Am I an expert on monos because I see them every day (well, actually I have more experience mono than multi, but the point is still valid)? I see a lot of racing boats also; am I an expert on them? Same with power boats?

Neither of your statements are factual. Most people I know with catamarans have much experience on different ones. This is the same with most people I know with monohulls too. From the this posting and your earlier one, it is obvious you do not know much about this boat type, or are wallowing in confirmational bias.

There is not a sub-50' catamaran that crossed the Atlantic at 14kts in the ARC, let alone multiple ones. It just doesn't exist, unless there was a full-out small racer that I'm not aware of. You can look that up instead of "heard tell".

The bridle thing is laughable - particularly since you assigned this problem as an inherent deficiency in all catamarans, and even implicated the designers and builders. Perhaps you did see a particular boat with this arrangement - I do not know of a single model that has it, and have never seen it done this way (and I guarantee that I have more personal experience with more catamaran brands and models than you do). Perhaps you saw a charter boat where the charterers didn't understand how to connect a bridle, or the regular cleats for this purpose were unusable or broken due to other charter mishaps?

And because you know this bridle thing is a design fault in all catamarans, you question the entire build and design of all catamarans.

Shall I tell you what I've seen done by charterers in monohulls? Even owners of monohulls? It would curdle your mind to know the bad designs inherent in all monohulls based on my observations of the above.

What boat goes directly into weather under power in 5-7" short seas and 20kts without bouncing around and showing its bottom? Maybe a big heavy slow mono, but most all boats will be wet and bouncy in this. How does this even play into an argument?

I have 15 years of direct experience of both owning and sailing on many different catamaran brands and models from old Prouts to all-out racing and everything in between. 10 of those years are full-time live aboard cruising in different and varied areas. I spend time almost daily having discussions with other catamaran owners, and crawl through and around different ones seeing all the systems and design/build.

Here is the bottom line: you are full of it with the above postings. There is no other way to put that, and to believe that sitting in charter country observing boats from a distance makes you an expert on them is incredible hutzpah.

Mark


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> Out - I'm with you on the issue of dockage. I definitely don't think it makes sense to buy a multi if you're just going to keep it at a marina in one area. I don't plan to do that. I plan to be out sailing - for a couple of years at least. So that's not as much a factor.
> 
> As for the other stuff you list, some of it I've heard similar to your retelling from those with cats, other stuff I've heard exactly the opposite.


FWIW we have looked looked at cats.

Specifically we became very fond of a Fountaine Pajot Athena 38. For a family cruising there is much to recommend a Cat. For the moment we don't seem to be heading that direction but that could change.

This discussion is as old as internet sailing forums. While i'm interested in the pros and cons I just am unsure why this continues to be such a polarising debate?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have a decent relationship with my yard manager in RI and with the folks in Nanny Key. Also friends shared some of their costs running their boats including summer costs in Grenada/Trinidad So have a sense of costs in New England and Caribbean. Annual budget will run ~ 1 1/2 to 2X current budget. I’m not going around the world. If so would sell the house have Chris White build me a boat and be gone from SN. I’m doing a more limited program of chasing the sun and hopefully a trip across the pond at some point. Still passages are involved.
Just like with monos there are multis designed with passage making in mind and those designed with coastal/charter in mind. We can re-enter the endless argument about this or accept agreement to to disagree. The second category is in reach for me. The first is not without selling off assets. I don’t think I’m alone in this. I fully agree the multi segment of the market is hot and will continue to grow. I disagree that the mono segment will wither and die. 
My current obstacles are 15-20 year wait for a mooring within hundreds of miles of me. Not purchase expense but annual budget. Boat handling in close quarters without help. I have no interest in the typical Caribbean charter boat for a variety of reasons but mostly due to what I view as inadequacies of construction. Smack please stop showing pics of these unless to further a substantive point.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I don't think there will ever be a winner in the mono vs multi thing. Both concepts have been around for thousands of years and one particular design of each concept might have been better for a given purpose at a given time or in relation to a given cultures capabilities, but one has never been better than the other. Further more, speaking of catamarans or monos in broad terms doesn't add up either. Designs can be wildly different from one to the next. It has always been this way.

What hasn't been around forever is high aspect external keels. Until fairly recently keels were mostly structural. As far as I know high aspect external keels have been restricted to modern mono hull recreational sailing yachts. It's not a concept that has ever really been adopted by commercial transportation or military use. Weird.

It seems as though more than one company has been struggling with how they are attaching these keels to hulls. Heavy weights on long levers. Kind of scary when you think about them. I am curious if these keel attachment challenges are more pronounced in relatively larger mono hulls. Bigger weight on a longer lever, lots of force. Or if we just hear more about incidents with bigger boats because they are higher profile incidents on open ocean?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> But it's a bit "sensible shoes" to me in the aesthetics department. Not exactly clean and proportional.
> 
> What's Dufour coming out with? I saw a website but it seems to be a placeholder.


Dufour is in tooling phase and haven't produced a boat yet - just taking orders.

You know, I'm slowly coming around to this type of aesthetics, and starting to see older designs like a LeRouge as being dated. For sure when this styling first appeared I was appalled, but owning a catamaran changes one to appreciate function over form for living, and these styles come with some great functionality. Even beyond that, I'm coming around to the style itself. I had similar change of opinion on the Euro/Ikea interior styles over the years.

Besides, there is plenty of room for hating on style in the catamaran market:

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> As far as I know high aspect external keels have been restricted to modern mono hull recreational sailing yachts. It's not a concept that has ever really been adopted by commercial transportation or military use. Weird.


Not weird when you consider that keels are only necessary for sailboats, and that commercial and military sailing ships went extinct over a century ago.

I'm not aware of keels falling off so regularly that they present a real concern. I think the publicity surrounding the very few that have in the past 10yrs makes the point that it is rare. For sure, the forces scale, and must be taken into account during design and construction, but I think this is well-understood now, and I don't know of any company "struggling" with the issue in general.

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

colemj said:


> Dude, get a grip.......


Define, irony.



> I just pointed out that the same people you worry about cannot afford the same costs of the boat you currently own. Or any similar monohull. So it is a bit of disingenuous "worry" to pick and choose what is problematic and what is not.


You've completely missed my point. I referenced the younger generation's inability to afford a cat over a mono, you decided to think about a middle aged guy's choice and ability. I'll just let my post stand above, for those who understood it.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

You missed my point that the younger generation has never been able to afford whole categories of boats. Multi or mono. Catamarans are in the Jeanneau 54DS category. In the past, they couldn't afford Hinckely Pilot 35's and settled for used older cheaper boats.

So you have defined and assigned a "problem" to fit your concern. On the other hand, there are catamarans for sale below $100,000, and even in the $50,000 range - possibly less. Check out older Warrams, Deans, Fountaine Pajots, Prouts, and Solaris. But still they aren't in the "essentially free" category, where old monos can be had.

But that is irrelevant - nothing has changed from how it was in the past. Multihull/old monohull has nothing to do with it, anymore than Hinckley B40/old Islander 26 did in the past.

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

How does a thread about Oyster closing become one about catamarans?

Moderators need to move debates/discussions about cats and cats vs mono out of this thread.

The reason for their closing may be related to the notion that buyers who want a lot of sailboat real estate... are choosing shorter wider cats over longer narrower monos. Has this figured into the calculus of Oyster?

Whether cats are better to cruise on or not... the fact remains that the marine "infrastructure" in New England (and maybe the rest of the USA) is geared toward monohulls with narrow beams. The calculus of interior volume, cockpit size, LWL and cost are more complex. Finally, the aesthetics of cats might have a ways to go to capture the fancy of most monohull sailors. None of this may play into the decision to shut the doors at Oyster.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

It


colemj said:


> Not weird when you consider that keels are only necessary for sailboats, and that commercial and military sailing ships went extinct over a century ago.
> 
> I'm not aware of keels falling off so regularly that they present a real concern. I think the publicity surrounding the very few that have in the past 10yrs makes the point that it is rare. For sure, the forces scale, and must be taken into account during design and construction, but I think this is well-understood now, and I don't know of any company "struggling" with the issue in general.
> 
> Mark


Maybe not weird for you, but it's an anamoly to me, I can't think of a single other conveyance aside from the modern recreational keel boat that uses a concept similar to an external high aspect keel.

Interesting approach to public safety. How many keels would need to fall off of relatively new boats at sea before it was a cause for concern? 1? 5? 10? 2000? Who have you consulted with, the company employees that have been impacted? The courts who have been settling the disputes? The families of those directly affected?

If these were aircraft losing wings mid flight and some one said, I wonder if we're using the right glue to attach these aircraft wings, would you give the same answers.

You can think whatever you want, but I am going to continue to wonder if there might be an issue with how some keels are being attached.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> It
> 
> Maybe not weird for you, but it's an anamoly to me, I can't think of a single other conveyance aside from the modern recreational keel boat that uses a concept similar to an external high aspect keel.
> 
> ...


I don't understand your confusion. Keels are foil devises that are only necessary on sailboats because of the mode and physics of their propulsion. In fact, they are only needed upwind as foils - the rest of the time they are just weight balancing the rigging weight and are detrimental outside of that.

So there is not a single other conveyance that needs a keel, let alone a high-aspect one, than a sailboat. There is no anomaly - keels are only necessary on sailboats. On any other type of craft they only produce drag, unnecessary draft, and make maneuvering more difficult.

In the same vein, I can't think of any other conveyance that uses a high-aspect sail other than a modern recreational sailboat. Is that really an anomaly?

You stated that manufacturers were "struggling" with the design issues around high-aspect fin keels, and that there were many incidences of them falling off. I pointed out that there is no real design issues that haven't been understood and solved (outside of race boats that intentionally push the edges of design), and that the number of incidents where keels fell of due to bad design or build was very small.

You then turn this around and claim that I have an "interesting approach to public safety"? And then imply my callousness to those effected by these cases? And then extend this smear to me impugning airplane design?

There is the Oyster that was mentioned in this thread, and a Bavaria race boat from at least 10yrs ago. What are all the other keels falling off from design/build problems? I know of several others that broke off from hard groundings and poor maintenance, but that isn't the same thing.

You need to improve your reading comprehension, information gathering and data analysis, and debate skills.

Mark


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

colemj said:


> Capta, I don't know where to start on this. Most cat owners have only been on their own boat, and you have mucho experience with catamarans because you live in charter territory and see many of them each day?
> 
> Am I an expert on monos because I see them every day (well, actually I have more experience mono than multi, but the point is still valid)? I see a lot of racing boats also; am I an expert on them? Same with power boats?
> 
> ...


I saw the you tube video of the cat screaming across the Atlantic in the Arc some years back. They were doing the glass on the table thing while surfing down the waves at something like 14 or 16 knots. I didn't mean to imply that they did the whole trip at those speeds.
As for the rest, fair enough. I don't think I claimed to be an expert on cats, just a keen (and interested) observer.
I do not ever remember seeing a monohull bringing as much boat out of the water as I have seen these cats do in similar conditions. And I'm not talking super light racers here, but boats that probably weigh around what a comparable mono might weigh. And they are by no means faster under power in those conditions than a comparable mono. Again another observation. As was the one about helm positions.
Many a time we on SN have read of things an PO has done to a boat that may not be considered correct and wondered what else may have been done poorly. It's a common comment. What makes my comment about mooring attachments any different?
As for owning or sailing multiple cats, I certainly have not met many folks like you. Most I've met have had only their one experience with the one they own. Most certainly don't have the money to own several, or more, $200k boats over their cruising career.
I still maintain that some cats are not as good sailboats on all points of sail,mainly because that is not their design criteria. Most do not sit quietly at anchor in the same conditions that make a mono uncomfortable. They may not "tilt" but they certainly pitch violently, and I don't have to aboard one *or* own one, to see that quite clearly. Also, many of these boats are not bareboats. They are in the charter trade (husband and wife teams) just as my wife and I are and we travel the same routes and anchor in the same anchorages every couple of weeks. 
I also never once said that there aren't good sailing cats. I'd take a Rudy Choy anytime, as an ocean cruiser, or as just a damn fun boat to day sail. If you have seen the steering positions on some of these boats and it didn't send a shiver down your spine, thinking about having to hand steer in a storm at sea, well then you are a much braver man than I! Next time I see one I'll take a pic.
I've never even said that I wouldn't own almost any of the cats I describe. I can certainly appreciates their positives, and if I wanted one I would probably put up with their negatives. However, for those considering a non-tilting boat, I like to put forth my observations so that they might not become one of the small group who feel moving to a cat was a mistake.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

colemj said:


> You missed my point that the younger generation has never been able to afford whole categories of boats. ......


Right, but it has nothing to do with the point I was making. Others have suggested that younger generations were going to flock to cats, but you missed that context entirely. You get three strikes, time to walk back to the dugout.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> How does a thread about Oyster closing become one about catamarans?
> 
> Moderators need to move debates/discussions about cats and cats vs mono out of this thread.
> 
> ...


Well, threads drift when there is no new information, and that should be allowed IMO - otherwise this is a dry forum of technical instructions.

And you are correct that it is plausible to debate whether Oyster closing may be due to market and preference changes - and multihulls figure prominently in that. Particularly at the market level Oyster was competing in - where astoundingly well-designed and built and equipped semi-custom multihulls can be had for the same money.

Certainly monohull sailors are coming to grips with aesthetics. Very few of the catamarans sold are to people who have never owned a monohull before. Besides, you are discounting the historical fact that fashions and tastes change. I would argue that is exactly what is happening now. But there will always be those who bemoan hoop skirts and bloomers giving way to little black dresses. 

Like fashion, infrastructure also changes. How many yards in FL or the Caribbean could pull a multihull 20yrs ago? Now, those areas are full of places. The infrastructure market will follow the boat fashions - it won't keep the boats from happening.

I've owned more monos than multis. The only thing I have attempted here is to coldly argue that the current market direction is toward multis, and that this will be at the expense of the mono market. It is difficult to escape this conclusion from both experience, observation, and hard production data.

However, I also think this is just a period in time. In the future, I don't think sailboats of any type will be predominant. There just aren't that many of us left, and few behind us. Battery technology, electric drives, solar and efficient fuel engines, and other technologies just within reach will eventually produce what in today's vernacular would be called "power boats", but I think that will be an old-fashion term in the future.

Thus, Oyster goes out of business...

Mark


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## gonecrusin (Aug 23, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> Husbands won't "miss their sailing" on cats. No one has to miss "sailing" on a cat. What exactly do you think cruising cats do out there?


Mostly they motor so for those who like to motor their sailboats they are great.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Right, but it has nothing to do with the point I was making. Others have suggested that younger generations were going to flock to cats, but you missed that context entirely. You get three strikes, time to walk back to the dugout.


Dude, stop with the ad hominem's - it makes you sound silly, weakens your points, and I have not been responding in kind.

Check out youtube or a few blogs. Come to where we are and see who are actually on catamarans. Meet the people we know out here. Many, many more young people than you think. I would argue more now than were on similarly priced boats in the past. Remember, $150,000 today was only $25,000 in 1973, and there are more in this range to choose from than in 1973.

You are wrong in this, but it is by degree. There will always be more under 35yr olds in smaller, cheaper monos, but there are way more of them in catamarans around the world than your narrow locality shows. Way more.

Mark


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## gonecrusin (Aug 23, 2016)

colemj said:


> Well, threads drift when there is no new information, and that should be allowed IMO - otherwise this is a dry forum of technical instructions.
> 
> And you are correct that it is plausible to debate whether Oyster closing may be due to market and preference changes - and multihulls figure prominently in that. Particularly at the market level Oyster was competing in - where astoundingly well-designed and built and equipped semi-custom multihulls can be had for the same money.
> 
> ...


Bad business models don't work. Oyster..Gunboat..Hunter..Manta, nothing new really. Companies come and go.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Aircraft use foils extensively both for lift and on control surfaces. The anamoly with keel boats is the external ballast, not the foil. In recent years the weight and length of lever the ballast is attached to has become more pronounced with vessel size and in the pursuit of performance. It seems to me their is some experimentation with how the ballasted keels are being attached.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

colemj said:


> Dude, stop with the ad hominem's - it makes you sound silly, weakens your points, and I have not been responding in kind.


And yet your first post in this exchange was to rub my nose in what boat I owned. Beat it punk.

You're simply trying to make a bunch of other valid points to cover for missing mine. Want to drop this now?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

On the mono side at the level of Oyster it’s interesting to see the new resurgence of Al centerboards/lifting keels. Mostly French builders but a few Dutch as well. So another potential buyer is lost to Oyster in the <60’ group. Practically being on a K&M lifting keel or a Boreal centerboard gives you no limitations in draft or beam. The Orange group boats or the Puffins offer opportunities in steel or Al. All these have waiting lists and are quite solvent.
On the down side is both Swan and Baltic have seemed to follow similar business models to Oyster. Pretty much have moved out of mom and pop or family boats and are just building huge boats for the 1%ers.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

capta said:


> I saw the you tube video of the cat screaming across the Atlantic in the Arc some years back. They were doing the glass on the table thing while surfing down the waves at something like 14 or 16 knots. I didn't mean to imply that they did the whole trip at those speeds.


I bet there were monos also hitting similar speeds on short surfs. The fact that they were doing so with their glass sitting still on the table suggests that this was not scary and uncomfortable event you portrayed it as. We often hit short bursts of double-digit speed on the backs of waves while averaging 6-7kts overall. It is a non-event and rarely noticed unless one is looking at the speedo. I get the feeling you have not been on a catamaran doing so.



capta said:


> Many a time we on SN have read of things an PO has done to a boat that may not be considered correct and wondered what else may have been done poorly. It's a common comment. What makes my comment about mooring attachments any different?


Because your comment was incorrect. I don't know of, and have never seen, a catamaran with the bridle attachment points as you ascribed to pretty much all cats, their designers, and builders. You overlooked the fact that this was a single incident on a likely charter boat with probably charterers aboard. You did not put it down to a PO having made a silly change and questioned what other silly things they may have done. Go back and read your long screed on this. It had no basis in the reality of catamaran design - and that was what I pointed out.



capta said:


> As for owning or sailing multiple cats, I certainly have not met many folks like you. Most I've met have had only their one experience with the one they own. Most certainly don't have the money to own several, or more, $200k boats over their cruising career.


I've met many people who have only owned one monohull, but have lots of hands-on experience with many other monohulls. This is no different for catamaran owners. We also have sailed on other people's boats, charter different catamarans, and - this is an important point - spend a lot of time on different catamarans helping others with issues or upgrades (or just admiring stuff). Absolutely no difference between catamaran owners and monohull owners in this regard. Expertise with a catamaran can be gained through many avenues, but not by just sitting around looking at them from a distance.



capta said:


> I still maintain that some cats are not as good sailboats on all points of sail,mainly because that is not their design criteria. Most do not sit quietly at anchor in the same conditions that make a mono uncomfortable. They may not "tilt" but they certainly pitch violently, and I don't have to aboard one *or* own one, to see that quite clearly.


Of course they are not as good of sailboats on all points of sail. Neither are monohulls. It has nothing to do with design criteria until one portions designs into categories. I promise you that you will beat me on a beat, but I'll hand it to you on a run. Change our boats to a different category, however, where mine is now a Sig45 and yours is a Pogo 50 and things are going to look different again in this regard. Put a Sig45 against your boat, and you will only have a short time to look at it in any conditions at any point of sail. Put a Pogo 30 against mine, and I will experience the same.



capta said:


> If you have seen the steering positions on some of these boats and it didn't send a shiver down your spine, thinking about having to hand steer in a storm at sea, well then you are a much braver man than I! Next time I see one I'll take a pic.


Man, if you have seen some of the steering positions on some of the mono's I have, it would send a shiver down your spine. I don't understand your point of painting with so broad a brush - steering positions are not universal on catamarans by a long shot. How about the steering station in a storm on a Mainecat or Chris White?

BTW, don't worry about the pictures - I pretty much know and have first hand experience with all of what you consider poor catamarans steering stations.

Mark


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

gonecrusin said:


> Bad business models don't work. Oyster..Gunboat..Hunter..Manta, nothing new really. Companies come and go.


I'm not sure of your point, since bad business models include not following the market where it is leading.

Manta wasn't really a bad business model - the owner died unexpectedly and left the business to another, who promptly took the money and ran. Boats were being built until paychecks stopped arriving and everyone walked off and took tools and stuff as payment. However, the Manta model being built at the time was quickly becoming obsolete. Whether they would or could have responded to the market with a new model is unknown.

While Gunboat had a bad business model in terms of decisions and finances, their boats and market were not a problem - as witnessed by the success of HH Catamarans taking their designs and being successful with them.

Not quite sure what went on with Hunter, and Oyster is the topic of this thread.

Mark


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> And yet your first post in this exchange was to rub my nose in what boat I owned. Beat it punk.
> 
> You're simply trying to make a bunch of other valid points to cover for missing mine. Want to drop this now?


When did I ever rub your nose in your boat? And exactly how did I do that? I used your boat as an equal member of a comparable category containing catamarans in regards to affordability to younger people. Other than that exact point, I never mentioned your boat or made any comments on it.

You made a general statement, and I just reworded it to apply in the same manner to show that the statement was not, in fact, a general one.

So I am making a bunch of valid points? I'm glad to be getting through.

Again, the tough guy ad hominem's really reflect badly.

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

colemj said:


> When did I ever rub your nose in your boat? And exactly how did I do that? I used your boat as an equal member of a comparable category containing catamarans in regards to affordability to younger people. Other than that exact point, I never mentioned your boat or made any comments on it.
> 
> You made a general statement, and I just reworded it to apply in the same manner to show that the statement was not, in fact, a general one.
> 
> ...


Bull. It was personal, or you could have use any generic 6 figure mono to make your point. My initial post had and still has nothing to do with more expensive monos and only to do with which boats the younger gen can actually afford overall. I'm torn between whether you're stubborn or really don't understand.

Otherwise, don't flatter yourself on getting through. You haven't convinced me of anything I didn't already know, nor countered the actual point I made. If anything you keep reaffirming it, with values, etc. You just keep swinging at an imaginary ball in your mind. I'm sure you'll feel the need to continue.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> Aircraft use foils extensively both for lift and on control surfaces. The anamoly with keel boats is the external ballast, not the foil. In recent years the weight and length of lever the ballast is attached to has become more pronounced with vessel size and in the pursuit of performance. It seems to me their is some experimentation with how the ballasted keels are being attached.


Well, you certainly have me going in circles trying to figure out your argument. Yes, aircraft use high-aspect foils, but this is apples and oranges to boats. You stated that it was an anomaly that sailboats were the only conveyances that used weighted high-aspect keels and wondered why commercial and military ships didn't use them. I pointed out the reason why this is the case.

Now it seems like you are narrowing it to large weighted bulbs on thin foil sections? If so, again, these are only necessary for sailboats, and no other means of conveyances. They are also mostly found on racing boats, which as I have pointed out often push the design and engineering limits even while fully understanding the design and engineering physics. In addition, these are now being employed as canting keels, which is another realm of engineering.

This type of keel had nothing to do wth the Oyster keel, and I am not aware of any recreational boat outside of dedicated racing that has had one fall off.

If you want to narrowly focus your point to one about how this type of keel is undergoing a lot of experimentation on racing boats to see just how far they can push things, then you have a valid argument. But it has always been this way with every aspect of a boat in this realm.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Bull. It was personal, or you could have use any generic 6 figure mono to make your point. My initial post had and still has nothing to do with more expensive monos and only to do with which boats the younger gen can actually afford overall. I'm torn between whether you're stubborn or really don't understand.
> 
> Otherwise, don't flatter yourself on getting through. You haven't convinced me of anything I didn't already know, nor countered the actual point I made. If anything you keep reaffirming it, with values, etc. You just keep swinging at an imaginary ball in your mind. I'm sure you'll feel the need to continue.


I was responding to you, so I used your boat with mine to make the point. I don't understand how that is a personal insult any more than if I had chosen another type of boat. I made no comment on your boat other than to group it in a price range with most catamarans. I even made that explicit in a later post.

I'm sure you will also feel the need to continue (see what I did there? It is a transparent and elementary debate trick. Maybe you can stop with these and make your points in a more civil and intelligent way?).

Mark


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Hey guys. Chill.
Let’s talk about Oyster and why they went belly up.
It’s been said “Brits buy Oyster .... Americans buy Hylas”. Any sense how Hylas is doing?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

ColeM,

I think you are having challenges with my posts because you are looking for hidden meanings. There aren't any, I am just saying what I am saying. No trickery. I am not confused about keels, I understand why commercial and military vessels, aircraft, trains etc, don't use external ballast. I also understand why aircraft, cars and boats do use foils. I also understand why external ballast is used on sailboats.

My observation is, it seems like some boats are losing this ballast to detriment. Not just racing boats.

I am not asking you anything, I am making an observation that I require no response to. No hidden message.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

outbound said:


> Hey guys. Chill.
> Let's talk about Oyster and why they went belly up.
> It's been said "Brits buy Oyster .... Americans buy Hylas". Any sense how Hylas is doing?


I have been trying to talk about that, or at least speculate. I do think the current market direction toward multis plays at least a generic role. It is difficult to speculate whether Oyster was going gangbusters in sales but made some bad financial decisions that sank them from below. Or something similar. But it is easier to speculate generically about established brands going under due to market direction.

And I don't mean Lagoon vs. Oyster. At the level of buying an Oyster, there are many very interesting custom and semi-custom catamarans. Additionally, large Oysters are often bought as status symbols or "something cool" or mostly in charter as a writeoff. The problem with that is how fragile these fashions are. Big multis are presently enjoying this fashion previously assigned to Oyster.

Oyster might have been a bit more rarified level than Hylas, but I'm also curious about Hylas. I get the feeling that Hylas was never dependent on large order numbers or pushing out new models like Oyster seemed to be.

On the other hand, there are enough used Hylas's in good shape now to potentially really cut into new boat sales. I guess it would all come down to just how many boats Hylas needs to sell each year to stay in business. I suspect it is less than Oyster, but I don't have any facts on that.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> FWIW we have looked looked at cats.
> 
> Specifically we became very fond of a Fountaine Pajot Athena 38. For a family cruising there is much to recommend a Cat. For the moment we don't seem to be heading that direction but that could change.
> 
> This discussion is as old as internet sailing forums. While i'm interested in the pros and cons I just am unsure why this continues to be such a polarising debate?


That makes two of us. But for some reason it is. I've loved my time sailing monos - but there's just too much to love about cats these days. So I'm officially mono-retired...and so is Oyster! Heh-heh.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> Have a decent relationship with my yard manager in RI and with the folks in Nanny Key. Also friends shared some of their costs running their boats including summer costs in Grenada/Trinidad So have a sense of costs in New England and Caribbean. Annual budget will run ~ 1 1/2 to 2X current budget. I'm not going around the world. If so would sell the house have Chris White build me a boat and be gone from SN. I'm doing a more limited program of chasing the sun and hopefully a trip across the pond at some point. Still passages are involved.
> Just like with monos there are multis designed with passage making in mind and those designed with coastal/charter in mind. We can re-enter the endless argument about this or accept agreement to to disagree. The second category is in reach for me. The first is not without selling off assets. I don't think I'm alone in this. I fully agree the multi segment of the market is hot and will continue to grow. I disagree that the mono segment will wither and die.
> My current obstacles are 15-20 year wait for a mooring within hundreds of miles of me. Not purchase expense but annual budget. Boat handling in close quarters without help. I have no interest in the typical Caribbean charter boat for a variety of reasons but mostly due to what I view as inadequacies of construction. Smack please stop showing pics of these unless to further a substantive point.


Out, I found your post above a fairly interesting, though not entirely accurate, read. And I wasn't particularly compelled to respond to it, until the last sentence.

I'm showing pics of catamarans that Mark and I are discussing. I'll continue to do so. If the pics are for some reason upsetting to you, just turn away. It's easy.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> ......Any sense how Hylas is doing?


Not sure financially, but I understand the split with Hylas USA (I may have the exact name wrong, they were just the past exclusive US marketing arm) was/is ugly.

A couple of the Hylas hull designs were jointly developed between Hylas and the US marketing group and there was some sort of royalty agreement with Hylas USA. There are court battles over it, Hylas (Queen Long) terminated the relationship and is either marketing direct or has a new relationship. Not exactly sure. In any event, it's very messy.

Their flagship 70 is one of the designs in dispute and makes me wonder if they can agree to make another or if the courts would jam it up.

I am told by a broker I know that the Hylas 5X models are selling strong. The 63 is a dud.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SanderO said:


> Whether cats are better to cruise on or not... the fact remains that the marine "infrastructure" in New England (and maybe the rest of the USA) is geared toward monohulls with narrow beams.


Either that will change over time or these businesses too will fail. The market forces are obvious - hence this thread.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Is this the LeRouge?


Oh Lord, no. That is an example of an aesthetic abomination to my tastes.

This is a LeRouge:

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> Oh Lord, no. That is an example of an aesthetic abomination to my tastes.
> 
> This is a LeRouge:
> 
> Mark


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! See, there is no accounting for taste!

As an ex-architect, I alway preferred Saarinen over Le Corbusier - which made me a bit of an outcast.

Of course, even LeCor threw down a Notre Dame du Haut every once in a while after slamming a few bottles of wine.










So none of us are above digging the curves.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> Either that will change over time or these businesses too will fail. The market forces are obvious - hence this thread.


Not so sure about that. Their is a finite amount of waterfront available. Around me it's pretty much full and I don't believe Ontario is alone in that respect. Not only is the waterfront full, but the population continues to increase, meaning less space for each person- population density.

The only way to accommodate twice the beam is to have half the number of sailors paying twice as much. On a whole I see that this could result in more smaller boats rather than fewer bigger boats being at least as likely an outcome.

I agree that ultimately the market will determine the outcome, but I don't necessarily agree that the waterfront that is currently available is going to become available to half as many wealthy oligarchs. Maybe that will happen, but I don't see evidence that we are heading that way in highly populated developed countries.

This isn't Sea Ray or Hobie that is having difficulties, this is Oyster; big luxury boats catering to a small affluent market.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> Not so sure about that. Their is a finite amount of waterfront available. Around me it's pretty much full and I don't believe Ontario is alone in that respect. Not only is the waterfront full, but the population continues to increase, meaning less space for each person- population density.
> 
> The only way to accommodate twice the beam is to have half the number of sailors paying twice as much. On a whole I see that this could result in more smaller boats rather than fewer bigger boats being at least as likely an outcome.
> 
> ...


I don't know about that. I can easily see marinas halving the number of berths and tripling or quadrupling the price and being sold out. Small boaters be damned. In fact, there are many areas where just this has happened.

Probably not in Ontario, though.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I appreciate curves, but prefer them in a Schionning or similar. Like I said, I'm coming around to the more hard styling - particularly because it is functional. It begins to look sillier on smaller boats like a Lagoon 39, but stretched out like a HH66 and it is mouth-watering. On the other hand, it is easy to make a large boat look good. I think the Nautitech Open 40 that you posted struck a good balance, but the Bali 4.5 is awful. The new Leopards missed the mark widely, IMO. The Helia is a bit of a compromise with styling between older and newer, but I think they pulled it off OK. There are a few things about that boat that I don't like, but my limited experience with them is that it is a good overall boat.

But I'm not an architect, or even an architectural enthusiast. I have zero artistic abilities, and no confidence in my opinion in these matters.

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> I don't know about that. I can easily see marinas halving the number of berths and tripling or quadrupling the price and being sold out. Small boaters be damned. In fact, there are many areas where just this has happened.
> 
> Probably not in Ontario, though.
> 
> Mark


Fair enough. You are right, there could be a difference in perception in Canada because freedom of navigation is enshrined in Federal Law. Water or the land underneath it can't be owned, so any citizen could fight it if access to the water is restricted to a select few, but I acknowledge that isn't the case everywhere.

If anything in recent years federal protection for freedom of navigation in Canada has increased, not decreased.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> Fair enough. You are right, there could be a difference in perception in Canada because freedom of navigation is enshrined in Federal Law. Water or the land underneath it can't be owned, so any citizen could fight it if access to the water is restricted to a select few, but I acknowledge that isn't the case everywhere.
> 
> If anything in recent years federal protection for freedom of navigation in Canada has increased, not decreased.


That wasn't why I thought it wouldn't happen in Ontario. It was more that I don't believe Ontario will ever become a popular place for these types of boats. It just isn't their environment and the logistics are difficult for them - nothing negative at all about Ontario.

But the Florida small boat marina is becoming rare as hen's teeth, and the same is happening in other places. Pretty much wiped out in the Eastern Caribe, and I suspect the Med.

Mark


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Not happening in California. Three local marinas rebuilt in the last 5 years, and none of them have "double berth" sizes for multis. They all did add more 50' slips though.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

I like catamarans - they do many things nicely, especially sailing downwind with a spinnaker to the hulls - neat trick.

I think they are great for places like the caribbean, but I wouldn't want to cross an ocean in one. If they capsize, it is all over. Lucky for this crew they were rescued.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Why do you do this? It is a silly argument - cherry picked and without statistical support. Should I post all the people who have died when their mono's sank mid-ocean? Is that a valid argument? It obviously wasn't game over for the people in your link because they are alive. That isn't true for all of those dangerous monos that should be only in the Caribbean - right?

Mark


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

colemj said:


> Why do you do this? It is a silly argument - cherry picked and without statistical support.
> Mark


So, you are saying that there is a catamaran that will self-right like a mono?

Never heard of one, but I am all ears...........


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Sigh. Yours is the weakest and oldest rhetoric going, and I will let you alone with it.

Mark


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

In other words, I am correct. If a catamaran gets flipped, it will not self-right like a monohull does.

The catamaran in the video is an Atlantic 57 - considered a very safe cruising catamaran with a beam of 28'. 

It obviously got flipped, and was unable to self-right. If a monohull had been hit the same way, it would have rolled back upright.
That is the reason I would not choose one for crossing oceans - although they are great for sailing around the caribbean.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Lazerbrains said:


> It obviously got flipped, and was unable to self-right. If a monohull had been hit the same way, it would have rolled back upright.
> That is the reason I would not choose one for crossing oceans - although they are great for sailing around the caribbean.


Really?

This one didn't...










...which is one of the big reasons this thread exists in the first place.

Your faith seems to be as misplaced as your arguments. (Are you clear on the SLV boat thing yet?)


----------



## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

smackdaddy said:


> Really?
> 
> This one didn't...


And what catamarans have self righted?

Bueller? Bueller?

Waiting to see just one that has....think I will be waiting for awhile


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

smackdaddy said:


> Really?
> 
> (Are you clear on the SLV boat thing yet?)


Actually, yes I am.

Researched it a bit more, and as it turns out, they were given a "substantial" discount on the price, and Outremer financed the rest for them payable out of their youtube proceeds. So yes, it is a paid endorsement. Maybe you are the one who is confused about it? You seem to think they weren't compensated....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Lazerbrains said:


> Actually, yes I am.
> 
> Researched it a bit more, and as it turns out, they were given a "substantial" discount on the price, and Outremer financed the rest for them payable out of their youtube proceeds. So yes, it is a paid endorsement. Maybe you are the one who is confused about it? You seem to think they weren't compensated....


Okay, Lazer. I'll have to bow out of acknowledging your posts again. I tried. I'm always willing to give a person the benefit of the doubt if they legitimately want to discuss something. But if you keep shifting positions just to argue (like some others around here) - it's just not worth the trouble. My time is more valuable than that.

What you're saying now is exactly what several above corrected you on - including me - and exactly NOT what you said in the beginning. So at least you've been corrected and educated. That's worth something.

LaterLazer.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> The HH48 is not bad either (though not nearly as sexy as the 65)...
> 
> What's really interesting to me about it though is the dual steering...with the dual tiller steering outside...
> 
> ...


They are expensive - all carbon and well-built.

They look like Gun Boats, with the same features, because they are the same design. Gun Boat stiffed M&M, so they took their designs to HH and helped them build them. Might have been the last nail in Gunboat's coffin. HH is doing a much better job than Gun Boat ever did.

Outremer also uses tillers and separate wheel and they have these really sexy and comfortable bucket seats for the tiller, although their wheel is in a more traditional place. Chris White almost pioneered the inside steering, and Mainecat is similar in that regards, although it is more about being an aspect of the overall design than being purposefully placed.

A Balance 526 just dropped anchor near us. That is a very good looking design also.

Mark


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

smackdaddy said:


> Okay, Lazer. I'll have to bow out of acknowledging your posts again. It tried. I'm always willing to give a person the benefit of the doubt if they legitimately want to discuss something. But if you keep shifting positions just to argue (like some others around here) - it's just not worth the trouble. My time is more valuable than that.
> .


Actually, you brought it up, as you can't seem to let it go.

I don't breathlessly follow those two bimbos' reality show like you do.

The reality is they were well compensated - it's an advertisement.

Only a fool would take their endorsement seriously.

Maybe next they will motor their boat along the coast of Florida and call it a bluewater passage.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Pictures of the increasing plethora of production cats are of interest to many. To me of more interest is a critique of these offerings beyond simple aesthetics. Would also be quite interested in how to mathematically judge these offerings. Resistance to pitchpoling as is as much an issue as “flipping over”, measures of motion in trying conditions and like measurements hold interest. As interesting as they are may I suggest again they do not belong in this thread. Smack as a gentleman I ask you again rather than divert this thread please start another to pursue this interest of yours,mine and I think others. If it’s just a picture book I’ll glance at it. If substantive I’ll follow it closely just like Paulo’s.
To date I think I can summarize your contribution to the OP as “cats have an increasing market share. This hurt Oyster. Here’s a bunch of pics of cats I like”.
Your point is made. Move on.
I think your point is wrong. Oyster moved away from the under 50’ market long ago. Those buying the boats in your pictures haven’t been the target buyer for Oyster for some years now. Those boats are in the 1/2 to 1 m range. Oysters market is in multiples of that amount. Perhaps those looking in the 1 to 2 m range were a very small segment of targeted Oyster buyers but I seriously doubt that had anything to do with their closure. 
So regardless if one accepts your premise or not the pictures add little or nothing to THIS thread. A thread about multis would be fun. Go for it.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

This thread was more fun when everyone was talking about guns!



Can the Cat Vs Mono brigade grab some M16s and shoot it out somewhere quiet? 


Gun Fight at the OK Marina.


:grin


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

outbound said:


> I think your point is wrong. Oyster moved away from the under 50' market long ago. Those buying the boats in your pictures haven't been the target buyer for Oyster for some years now. Those boats are in the 1/2 to 1 m range. Oysters market is in multiples of that amount. Perhaps those looking in the 1 to 2 m range were a very small segment of targeted Oyster buyers but I seriously doubt that had anything to do with their closure.


Yes, I made the point that Oyster wasn't being out-marketed by production catamarans in the same way they weren't being out-marketed by Hunter. However, there are many bespoke catamaran designs and builds in the 3-10M range that do compete in the same price, size, and quality market with Oyster. The general fascination with catamarans at the present time is fully up and down the market, and very well could have drawn interest away from Oyster.

Mark


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> This thread was more fun when everyone was talking about guns!
> 
> Can the Cat Vs Mono brigade grab some M16s and shoot it out somewhere quiet?
> 
> ...


You need a tax stamp to legally use a suppressor here in the US. Most folks don't have one, it is likely to be a loud shootout. :grin


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> Definitely blue water BTW.


Capetown to Brisbane Nonstop. Yeah thats a big nasty ass bit of water.

According to the comments they were towing a 300 ft warp with a bight on the end.﻿

I must admit part of my trepidation in considering a Cat is the learning curve involved in sailing on one.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> Capetown to Brisbane Nonstop. Yeah thats a big nasty ass bit of water.
> 
> According to the comments they were towing a 300 ft warp with a bight on the end.﻿
> 
> *I must admit part of my trepidation in considering a Cat is the learning curve involved in sailing on one.*


I totally agree Chall. Same here. I've kind of reached the pinnacle of sailing ability in monos (short of professional ocean racing, of course) and now I'm going to have to start over!

It's cool though. There's just too much going for them for me not to go this multi route.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chall03 said:


> I must admit part of my trepidation in considering a Cat is the learning curve involved in sailing on one.


There really isn't a learning curve. That old saw is way over-stated. The sails are trimmed the same if you have any experience with a large roach full batten sail on a mono. The rigs are fractional, but if you have experience with mono fractional rigs they are the same. After a bit of time sailing one, it actually speaks to you when it needs to be de-powered. Not as loudly as a monohull, but it is not true that you have to pay slavish attention to instruments, etc - you will know in the seat of your pants because weather helm increases and the boat just feels overpowered even though it doesn't heel (actually, you will become tuned to the 2* difference in heel between normal and overpowered).

The rest of the "learning" is pretty basic - reef to gusts rather than average speed, let the boat have a bit of head right before a tack if you have been pinching, and overstate the tack a bit to let it regain speed before heading up tight again, enjoy a good meal, hot shower, and rest in a big bed on every passage, and giggle when you are running downwind in good seas like a train on tracks.

The most difficult thing to learn is to not jam them full of stuff. We still are beginners at that...

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Any reason for spamming this thread with unrelated material, or should we speculate?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm glad you edited that. You're definitely walking the line...again.

This is Chall's thread. Chall and I have been forum friends for many years. If he has any problem with my posts, and/or Mark's he'll let us know. We've all been around a while.

So don't worry yourself.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Walking what line? Was I talking to you? Are you the one who is spamming this thread?


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Forum threads are like conversation. Who is so important that they think they can dictate how a conversation progresses? Let it go, read if you like, don't click on if you don't. A rather simple concept, no? Maybe I should throw in here that one side of the political spectrum always wants to stifle free speech and expression of ideas when it doesn't agree with their agenda...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> Walking what line? Was I talking to you? Are you the one who is spamming this thread?


Sigh. "Provocateur"? You're really not very good at this Arc.

Look, if you want to talk boats cool. If you and Lazer just want to troll - I'm not interested. I think I've made myself pretty clear on that point, though you guys do keep trying.

Like I said, Chall will let me and Mark know if he has a problem with the catamaran discussion we're having here. And I'll abide by his wishes.

Later.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> I'm glad you edited that. You're definitely walking the line...again.
> 
> This is Chall's thread. Chall and I have been forum friends for many years. If he has any problem with my posts, and/or Mark's he'll let us know. We've all been around a while.
> 
> So don't worry yourself.


I see you edited this post, good call, you were walking "a thin line".


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Here's my edit. I'd accidentally left Mark out...










I've got nothing to hide Arc.

Let's see yours.


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

AR10's are more fun than AR15's as they make larger holes.... 
Is anyone surprised that SanderO is offended by a thread that he doesn't have to look at?
AMWay: I don't like to post personal information on the internet but your ignorance causes me to make an exception. I came from a rural background in southern Iowa. My parents bought a farm in 1955 and made that the roots of our family. We did not get indoor plumbing until 1968. My oldest brother started a very successful commercial refrigeration business in the Texas Panhandle and passed your magic mark. My next older brother graduated from college with a double major in History and Physical Education and taught for ten years before entering the construction business and retiring last year. I own a commercial refrigeration service business that employs 6 people, three residential rental properties, and a commercial rental property as well as a nice home on a lake. My younger brother still operates the family farm and has 30+ years working for the largest grocery business in Iowa. We all easily surpass your artificial barrier using the principles espoused in the book I suggested long before the book was published, because thrift, hard work, and honesty was what we were taught by our parents. Take another drink and ponder on that information. I realize it is difficult for those who focus on shallow thoughts and issues to understand but the American Dream of yesteryear is still in effect. To quote a high level of social meaning from the 1970's, "A walk through the ocean of most men's souls would scarcely get your feet wet."


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I deleted three words exactly. "Self described provocateur". Wasn't talking to you, was talking to some one else, because you don't self apply that handle, right?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

One thing I would ask the mods since this thread is now all over the place...if you do close it - again - at least please move the mutli posts to their own thread. I think we've all produced a lot of valuable information on multis here. It would suck to have all that lost...again.

At the end of the day, I think it should be Chall's call as I've said - like the old days when SN was about boats and sailing and having fun. But things have gotten a bit strange around here. When good, informative conversations between long-time members (Mark, Chall, George, Jeff, and many others) get repeatedly squelched...I don't know what to think anymore.


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## WharfRat (Aug 4, 2015)

Um, could we talk about Oyster now?

I was parsing this article some SuperyachtNews.com - Business - UPDATE: Oyster Yachts enters administration

What I took as relevant bits were

*
It has been suggested that HTP Investments, the Dutch financial vehicle that purchased Oyster Yachts in 2012 for around £15million, has withdrawn its financial support from the enterprise, this follows a period of investment that saw Oyster Yachts expand the facilities at its Southampton Shipyard in 2017 and continue to invest in new designs and models, including the new Oyster 745 that was launched at Boot Dusseldorf in January. 
*

If I were to guess, I would think that Oyster was not in great financial shape back in 2012, and they sought an outside investor to plow some dough into capacity upgrades. The investors probably expected the upgrades to enable higher profits later.

Then there is this

*

Oyster Yachts becomes one of many superyacht shipyards to cease operation over the last 10 years, indeed in 2008 there was 268 vessels delivered across 118 shipyards, by comparison there was only 124 vessels delivered in 2017 across 51 shipyards.

*

That's a market that experienced something like -53% growth over 9 years. Any market shriveling by that much that quickly is going to see failed businesses. Regardless of why various slices of the pie went to whom, the overall pie has been shrinking.

At least, that's what the Oyster story is saying to me. I'm not thrilled about my conclusion, but barring either a massive resurgence in the popularity of recreational sailing, or massive innovation in recreational shipbuilding that changes the cost structure, I am inclined to think we'll see more and more sailboat builders close down in the years to come.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Wharf - that second quote of yours certainly doesn't line up with the one I posted from Chall's article...



> Recently, Oyster announced 2017 was a record year, with its order book reaching more than £80 million.


Like I said then in post #4 - it appears poor math was a major factor in this from many different angles. My guess is that the 745 got zero interest and HTP cut their losses. Whatever it was that sure happened fast after that January launch.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> That's the beauty/curse of architecture...no matter how scientific we try to make the justifications for design, when it comes to aesthetics it's ALWAYS purely subjective. I think that's why architecture is also a dying industry.
> 
> In any case so that readers know what we're talking about...
> 
> ...


Here's a few shots of a Schionining 49 that my gal painted and managed the refit on in Thailand.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

WharfRat said:


> *
> 
> Oyster Yachts becomes one of many superyacht shipyards to cease operation over the last 10 years, indeed in 2008 there was 268 vessels delivered across 118 shipyards, by comparison there was only 124 vessels delivered in 2017 across 51 shipyards.
> 
> ...


Having an increasing market share in a declining market is the surest way to a quick death.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

God this thread.

Look. Just as with the blue water boats or hunter thread or anything other damned moronic thing: *When it comes to mono vs multi we are talking about two differently shaped objects with different characteristics. That simple.* It is okay for different things to behave differently and be better or worse suited to different things. _It's okay_. Don't panic about it or develop some sort of outrage.

This desperate desire to pretend that the most basic laws of physics and fluid dynamics don't apply to multis is simply idiotic.

_It is not an opinion. It is not a point of view. It is not ideology. _

It is simply that objects with different shapes behave differently. The end. Function can follow form, if you that's what you want. Just because a flathead screwdriver can be used as a chisel in a pinch does NOT mean it is a chisel, equivalent to a chisel, or a proper substitution for a chisel. And pointing this out DOES NOT mean that I am biased against the wonderfulness of flathead screwdrivers. It's simply that some tools are better suited to certain tasks than others.

I think a lot of cats are great. There are situations where I'd like to have one. Please don't flip out or develop a persecution complex because I'm pointing out that they are not in fact able to defy the laws of nature or carry off magical feats.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

aeventyr60 said:


> Here's a few shots of a Schionining 49 that my gal painted and managed the refit on in Thailand.


No luck on uploading pics today...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

amwbox said:


> God this thread.
> 
> Look. Just as with the blue water boats or hunter thread or anything other damned moronic thing: *When it comes to mono vs multi we are talking about two differently shaped objects with different characteristics. That simple.* It is okay for different things to behave differently and be better or worse suited to different things. _It's okay_. Don't panic about it or develop some sort of outrage.
> 
> ...


Ahmmmm. Okay.

*Aev - get those pics up dude! I'd love to see the work she managed!*


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Yes, Smack. Though you've continuously been living in denial...different things _do_ have different characteristics. Pretending any sort of objective inferiority or superiority in a general sense across such differences is simply nonsensical.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> This is Chall's thread. Chall and I have been forum friends for many years. If he has any problem with my posts, and/or Mark's he'll let us know. We've all been around a while.
> 
> So don't worry yourself.


Look I can be a sensitive wallflower on occasion, but I don't mind a good bit of thread drift.

I must admit a good old fashioned Sailnet Cat v Mono brawl was not what I envisaged would transpire out of the dust of the demise of Oyster but I feel this boat has now capsized too far to self right itself


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Here's my edit. I'd accidentally left Mark out...


What? Me Mark or the 'other' Mark?

I don't mind my posts at all. Full of intelligent information, normally spiced with hot chicks etc. The other Marks are a bit droll... Kinda like week old seaweed tossed ashore on some miserable arctic island, picked over by a half-dead gull and aromatically devestating. Apart from that some think he's a great guy....

:nerd


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

OT...

What is the deal on thread drift, spamming, OT posts and so on and moderation for this sort of stuff? I like to think of this site as an informal information resource informed by sailors with experience posting on the various threads. 

I am not interested in buying an Oyster or any boat for that matter, especially anything over low 40s. I am interested in discussions about the merits of various types of boats... the downsides and so forth... and certainly discussions about various cruising grounds and industry issues... nav gear for example. Having stated this the issues which led to the demise of a world class builder such as Oyster interests me. Were there market causes? Management issues... And more. Cats while interesting on their own seems to have virtually nothing to do with Oyster's demise... unless their popularity can be DEMONSTRATED as informing Oyster's decision. This is not sailor's X, Y and Z favorable feelings about cats... interesting again... but hardly on topic.

Mods.... why don't you keep these treads more on topic? Why don't you move cat discussions and posts to a multihull thread? 

Humor is always OK... but again I don't think these threads need be flooded with humor and "chat" at the expense of content.

SN members... why do inject posts which have nothing to do with the OP? Why not start a new thread if your thoughts represent a new idea?

thank you!


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Here's that C0 furler rigging I was talking about...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't really see a problem with that, although I'd use a low friction ring instead of that shackle. I suppose it is rigged that way so they can remove the sail without having to de-rig the prodder. Also, they can adjust the luff tension without messing with the halyard.

Edit: I just noticed that is a fixed prodder, so yes, they would need it to remove the sail unless they were comfortable climbing out on that prodder.

Mark


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

SanderO said:


> SN members... why do inject posts which have nothing to do with the OP? Why not start a new thread if your thoughts represent a new idea?


Because it's Sailnet.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

SanderO said:


> Having stated this the issues which led to the demise of a world class builder such as Oyster interests me. Were there market causes? Management issues... And more. !


I feel most of the answers you seek were covered in the link in my first OP. The rest I feel were covered in the few on topic posts that followed.

In short I don't believe market forces were the IMMEDIATE factor. They state they had quite a full order book. Basically what has occurred is more about business than boats. The Dutch majority shareholder HTP Investments BV withdrew its funding at that point there was no money. Game Over.

I think it is a shame. Despite some of the cynicism in this thread Oyster were doing new things.

A 33 metre Carbon Fibre performance orientated Oyster anyone?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chall03 said:


> I feel most of the answers you seek were covered in the link in my first OP. The rest I feel were covered in the few on topic posts that followed.
> 
> In short I don't believe market forces were the IMMEDIATE factor. They state they had quite a full order book. Basically what has occurred is more about business than boats. The Dutch majority shareholder HTP Investments BV withdrew its funding at that point there was no money. Game Over.
> 
> ...


Perhaps I am terribly naive about their business model... I bought Shiva, a Contest 36s 33 years ago from a dealer in CT. A couple of years later I traveled to Holland to meet the architect of my boat, the owner of the yard and tour the factory. My impression was that the facilities were owned by the Conign family and they grew their facility to accommodate the boats they were building. How they financed their physical plant growth was either through sales revenue or personal or bank loans. I doubt that this sort of financing could destroy the company and force it to close its doors.

Apparrenly Oyster has a very different business model if I understand correctly.... they outsource to yards and sub contractors around the world. Is this correct? How does failure to obtain loans sink the company? If so please explain.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

SanderO said:


> Apparrenly Oyster has a very different business model if I understand correctly.... they outsource to yards and sub contractors around the world. Is this correct?


You are correct about them outsourcing to yards. Their business model was different from what you imagine a simple more traditional 'yacht building operation' to perhaps resemble.



SanderO said:


> How does failure to obtain loans sink the company? If so please explain.


It wasn't a failure to obtain a loan. HTP Investments BV were the majority shareholder. That is they were the majority owners. They withdrew funding at the end of January.

In reality the specifics of their equity structure, funding and accounting practices would be quite complex and above the likes of me to attempt to understand let alone explain.

But to simplify it is the equivalent of say you owning a little 1 bedroom unit and renting it out. You however decide it's not worth the hassle. You don't want to keep paying the utilities bill in order to get the measly rent...

There is hope for Oyster, they may be snapped up by another interested party and the brand may live on.

Hey they might start making self righting cats. Who knows.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Thanks for posting this interesting article chall03 . This is a sad story, and it is a risk when an investment company owns a builder like this. They lose money for a few years, or don't make as much as they feel they should and they just pull the plug. Think of it as a an investment company owns Oyster and they don't make enough profit so they just liquidate the company. From HTP Investments point of view, they sell off the assets and make most of their original investment back and they move onto something else. For the workers, its a sad disaster as a prestige company making beautiful yachts just implodes and all that talent and skill is ... lost. I hope someone buys them and puts everyone back to work. I agree their boats are amazing. I'll never get to own one, but I still appreciate what they do.

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news/oyster-yachts-gone-liquidation-2-64825


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Kinda stupid.... of the original "owners" of Oyster...

So what they did is essentially cash out.... stay on to design and manage build... and the revenue stream profit was unacceptable to the people who bought the brand name.

This is the same old story of leveraged buy outs... Company is gutted and ultimately destroyed by the new "management" who have no interest in the business... only the ROI.

Venture capitalists are destroying the fabric of society... and getting richer doing it.


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## jtsailjt (Aug 1, 2013)

SanderO said:


> Kinda stupid.... of the original "owners" of Oyster...
> 
> So what they did is essentially cash out.... stay on to design and manage build... and the revenue stream profit was unacceptable to the people who bought the brand name.
> 
> ...


Pretty much the same thing happened to Hinckley, where a group of "investors" bought the company in a leveraged buyout, loaded it with debt and cashed out. Then, when the next economic downturn came there was no margin for error to get them through it so they layed off most of their skilled workers who had been building beautiful cruising sailboats for generations. Luckily for the company, even though demand for their sailboats was flagging, their picnic boat line was doing very well so rather than closing down the whole thing, they switched to building both picnic as well as larger motorboats and that saved the company from having to be liquidated. Hopefully, something similar will happen to keep Oysters skilled workers employed at building beautiful and high quality boats of some kind, whatever shape those boats may take.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

jtsailjt said:


> Pretty much the same thing happened to Hinckley, where a group of "investors" bought the company in a leveraged buyout, loaded it with debt and cashed out. Then, when the next economic downturn came there was no margin for error to get them through it so they layed off most of their skilled workers who had been building beautiful cruising sailboats for generations. Luckily for the company, even though demand for their sailboats was flagging, their picnic boat line was doing very well so rather than closing down the whole thing, they switched to building both picnic as well as larger motorboats and that saved the company from having to be liquidated. Hopefully, something similar will happen to keep Oysters skilled workers employed at building beautiful and high quality boats of some kind, whatever shape those boats may take.


Why was the company sold???????????????????????????????????

to vulture capitalists

If they needed a cash infusion... why not go to a bank and take a loan?

My sense is they bought the BS from the venture capitalists because they wanted to cash out. I could be wrong... We need the rest of the story here.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> I feel most of the answers you seek were covered in the link in my first OP. The rest I feel were covered in the few on topic posts that followed.
> 
> In short I don't believe market forces were the IMMEDIATE factor. They state they had quite a full order book. Basically what has occurred is more about business than boats. The Dutch majority shareholder HTP Investments BV withdrew its funding at that point there was no money. Game Over.
> 
> ...


Those are some beautiful boats, no doubt...

Alpha









HYD 32M









But I also think that article, taken with some of the others we've seen may highlight the underlying problem facing Oyster. Here is the design brief for the Alpha...



> This carbon fibre sloop was developed for a repeat client who prefers to fly to his yacht rather than cruise long distances.


Nothing wrong with that of course, but this is a bespoke boat tailored to an individual interest. And though they try to undercut that fact with this...



> This design has already attracted significant interest, leading the yard to consider investing in female moulding. Such an approach helped the yard to sell the second 118 yacht before the first hull had been completed, as the ability to build in tandem reduces lead times.


A tremendous amount of time and treasure has gone into a very expensive one-customer boat, that happily had one other person interested. And this made them think about building moulds? This level of customer doesn't want a production boat. They don't want identical boats to theirs. That's the point of a custom boat.

So, it seems they were stuck between the custom and semi-production worlds - and couldn't figure out how to make either work.

Then you look back at their quote from your first story...



> Recently, Oyster announced 2017 was a record year, with its order book reaching more than £80 million.


I don't know what the price of the Alpha was, but extrapolating from their other boats, I would assume somewhere in £8-10 million range. This makes that record order book look very anemic - but worse, it makes the future look very dark for such a widely spread and seemingly expensive company.

I certainly don't know the real numbers at play here, but what you can see on the surface seems to point to HTP making a wise call.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> Look I can be a sensitive wallflower on occasion, but I don't mind a good bit of thread drift.
> 
> I must admit a good old fashioned Sailnet Cat v Mono brawl was not what I envisaged would transpire out of the dust of the demise of Oyster but I feel this boat has now capsized too far to self right itself


Good. So the lack of self-righting is not a deal-breaker. I figured as much you sensitive wallflower.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> What? Me Mark or the 'other' Mark?
> 
> I don't mind my posts at all. Full of intelligent information, normally spiced with hot chicks etc. The other Marks are a bit droll... Kinda like week old seaweed tossed ashore on some miserable arctic island, picked over by a half-dead gull and aromatically devestating. Apart from that some think he's a great guy....
> 
> :nerd


Definitely the other Mark. Heh-heh.

I haven't seen a lot of hot chicks lately, but I've learned much from you on the matters of storm avoidance, canned meat, and uncontrolled mental flatulence.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> Don't really see a problem with that, although I'd use a low friction ring instead of that shackle. I suppose it is rigged that way so they can remove the sail without having to de-rig the prodder. Also, they can adjust the luff tension without messing with the halyard.
> 
> Edit: I just noticed that is a fixed prodder, so yes, they would need it to remove the sail unless they were comfortable climbing out on that prodder.
> 
> Mark


I see what you mean about it being a good way to raise/lower without having to go out - while having more control over tensioning. I guess it was the galvanized shackle that looked the most sketchy. There's a lot of movement and friction at that point with that sail.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> I don't know what the price of the Alpha was, but extrapolating from their other boats, I would assume somewhere in £8-10 million range. This makes that record order book look very anemic... .


There's more successful custom boat builder s in that range than there are production boat builders. 
But try to get a custom boat buyer to pay top dollar and you are looking at much bigger boats.

You might think a billionaire is easy to get money out of but they are the most stingy, hardest negotiators and every contract comes with a team of lawyers. The old 40 to 60 foot oysters had normal owners... A bit stuck up, but normal ☺


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> There's more successful custom boat builder s in that range than there are production boat builders.
> But try to get a custom boat buyer to pay top dollar and you are looking at much bigger boats.
> 
> You might think a billionaire is easy to get money out of but they are the most stingy, hardest negotiators and every contract comes with a team of lawyers. The old 40 to 60 foot oysters had normal owners... A bit stuck up, but normal ☺


This and a few others have made the point that they moved into a niche which essentially custom one off "vanity" boats such as those built by Royal Huisman... Why would one of these non sailors... who have crew to sail and maintain and deliver it to premiere locations such as Monaco want to buy a boat from a production boat builder no matter how great their designs are? Pitching their renderings to this niche was likely one of then nails in their coffin. And thinking that cost is no issue and focusing on a few rather than scores of customized boats is a more efficient model.

Seems to be a lotta dumb over at Oyster in the high end of their management.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I attempted to make the point earlier about traditional mono builders getting into the catamaran market either by buying companies or beginning new production. Bavaria actually bought Nautitech, Hanse with Privilege, as you pointed out, Beneteau with Lagoon several years ago, Dufour bringing on new production (although both Beneteau and Dufour produced a catamaran model many years ago).

I suspect we will see this trend continue.

I tried to make this point to show that the market is moving quickly away from monohulls. The gang here refuses to believe this, and holds onto their contentions, seemingly by their powerful observation of their home marina, that catamarans play an insignificant part in the market and never will be popular.

I challenge anyone to find any company solely building catamarans that is scrambling to get into the monohull market. South Africa is huge in catamarans, yet you don't see Robertson Cain, Voyage, St. Francis, Balance, Royal Cape, Knysna, Tag, Nexus, Maverick, or Xquisite worried about their future and looking to expand into monohulls. And South Africa has an excellent monohull building tradition.

Moving to Europe, you only see monohull companies buying catamaran companies; you don't see Fountain Pajot worried about only having 3 years of back orders and looking to get into the lucrative monohull market. Nor are Catana, Outremer, and basically every other catamaran builder.

Going down under and, well, its all catamarans - those guys are nuts for them. Someone should tell the Antipodians they shouldn't be sailing those things in the Bass Straits and those other tough waters around them. They are sure to all die, and then who will we make fun of using our clever down under accents?

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Further to my point above, just look at the shear number of production catamaran builders that have been named in this thread - and there are more that haven't been named, and many more that do semi-custom or small numbers.

How does such an insignificant market support so many builders, so many models, and so many produced boats?

I'm wondering if the number of production catamaran builders have approached that of monohulls? One thing for sure is that there are more catamaran companies now than there were 5 years ago - which is the exact opposite of that for monohull companies.

I don't know how it cannot be clear which direction the market has moved.

Mark


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

You two should get a room and let this thread get back on track.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> Further to my point above, just look at the shear number of production catamaran builders that have been named in this thread - and there are more that haven't been named, and many more that do semi-custom or small numbers.
> 
> How does such an insignificant market support so many builders, so many models, and so many produced boats?
> 
> ...


Honestly I think it just goes to show how far behind reality sailing forums truly are. I've always been one to try to keep things somewhat focused on modernity on the mono side with my own content (amid a tremendous amount of wailing, running mascara, threats on my person, bannings, and locking of threads) - but I honestly had no idea that the world of multis was so freakin' big, innovative, and active. Talk about writing on the wall.

I've played around a bit on the multi forums over at SA. But not that much. I know there are some true leaders in the industry that post over there (e.g. - Soma, etc.) - but SA is just too polluted with everything else.

Who knows, maybe we can save SN by forging a new direction for it with multis. Lord knows it needs some help before it becomes another Oyster. Heh-heh.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Reporting from what I see where I sail... LIS to Newport... the cat trend that Mark sees is not in evidence. There are very few cats. Northport, for example has on 2 for years now.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> Reporting from what I see where I sail... LIS to Newport... the cat trend that Mark sees is not in evidence. There are very few cats. Northport, for example has on 2 for years now.


It is not only what I see - it is the whole industry and its numbers. I've been trying to post facts and reasoning and not just drawing my conclusion from what I see locally around me. I was hoping that came across clearer than it apparently is.

Like I mentioned earlier, New England really isn't multihull country for several reasons, even though you have one of the pioneers, Walter Greene, right there in Maine. The Great Lakes, likewise, isn't going to be over-run by multihulls any time soon.

But that doesn't change the world-wide trend.

BTW, Walter Greene built the first self-righting catamaran back in 1984.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

First to cross the line in this year's ARC was a TS 42...












> On Sunday 3 December Saint Lucia joyously welcomed the first arrival of the 2017 ARC fleet, TS42 Guyader Gastronomie after a 2900NM passage from Las Palmas de Gran Canaria. Crossing the finish line at 19:25:03 local time, the crew on board were in great spirits having enjoyed their 14 days at sea and received a fitting welcome as the first boat of the ARC fleet to reach the docks of Rodney Bay Marina.


A crew of only 4 ran her...and in ONLY 14 DAYS!!! And she's not bad inside either...










Oh, and at around €370k, she's several million less than the Oysters.

And she finished about 500 miles *ahead of a freakin' Pogo 40*. Wow!

The Swan 66 _Enigma VIII_ with an 8 man crew came in about 1-1/2 days later. There were 9 Oysters entered - no mention of those in the article (not even the 825).


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

This year's ARC appears to have 28 multis out of 186 total entries. So ~15% of the ocean-crossing fleet here is multi. Seems to be holding close to the market numbers we were looking at earlier. But what's most interesting is that *these are ocean-crossers* - not dock queens or charters or coastal cruisers. You would think that if the conventional forum wisdom held, this ARC ratio would be WAY, WAY lower.

Hmmm. Interesting. I'm definitely liking what I see.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

For those complaining about this thread, I have to point out that there was a multihull thread started, Capta contributed some good observations, and I responded, and then it was summarily removed. Up to the last time I was on it, the thread was going well, had promise, and no one was acting bad.

So I have no reason to believe that a thread dedicated to multihulls will be allowed again, and am a bit surprised posts on the topic are allowed to remain here. I don't think Sailnet is interested in the topic, and I'm certainly not going to start a thread on multihulls only to put work in it and have it shut down. I'll settle for a bit of the topic being presented in context with other thread topics.

However, nothing is really known about the Oyster shutdown. Should this thread be pared back to a single post containing the single news article that has all of the information currently known? Or can we speculate on industry trends that may have contributed? I don't see how presenting and discussing recent trends in the market led by other companies is any different than presenting and discussing recent venture capitalist moves with regards to other companies. The only difference I see is a bias on what boats are being discussed.

I don't think this thread has strayed too far off topic, unless one thinks a topic should only be demonstrable facts and not speculation or opinion. Maybe a bit about guns, but that was a quick aside.

Threads go where they go. If one doesn't like it, one just stops reading. Should this forum really become controlled only by the interests of a select few? Should it be solely informational and instructional topics that you come to when you need to rebuild your water pump and nothing more?

Mark


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Lots of threads here have forks.

Laissez le bon temps rouler


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

RegisteredUser said:


> Lots of threads here have forks.


And some have knives. Have I shown you my back? Heh-heh.



colemj said:


> Should it be solely informational and instructional topics that you come to when you need to rebuild your water pump and nothing more?


Lord I hope not.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> ...I'm definitely liking what I see.


Why are you liking what you see?
What other people are doing?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

When we were in the Eastern Caribe, there was a TS42 doing charters out of St. Lucia, and I had the opportunity to get close up with it while in dock.

You can keep your architecturally proper aesthetics swooping curves and bulging sides - the look of that boat ticks my boxes!

However, it is a performance boat. Makes a similar sized Catana look like a slug, and an Outremer isn't going to see it for long. It is well-fitted out for what it is.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

RegisteredUser said:


> Why are you liking what you see?
> What other people are doing?


They are crossing the Atlantic - quickly and safely. These are obviously capable boats. Take a moment to look through the ARC Rally list.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> They are crossing the Atlantic - quickly and safely. These are obviously capable boats. Take a moment to look through the ARC Rally list.


Cats have been circumnavigating for many years.
It's not like something new.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

colemj said:


> Going down under and, well, its all catamarans - those guys are nuts for them. Someone should tell the Antipodians they shouldn't be sailing those things in the Bass Straits and those other tough waters around them. They are sure to all die, and then who will we make fun of using our clever down under accents?
> 
> Mark


Steady on mate 

As we are all down under anyway it doesn't matter when our cats start flipping' left, right and centre cause then we end up the same way up as you lot.

You do speak truth we love the things. There are a few issues in terms of marina infrastructure catching up with the popularity.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> For those complaining about this thread, I have to point out that there was a multihull thread started, Capta contributed some good observations, and I responded, and then it was summarily removed. Up to the last time I was on it, the thread was going well, had promise, and no one was acting bad.
> 
> So I have no reason to believe that a thread dedicated to multihulls will be allowed again, and am a bit surprised posts on the topic are allowed to remain here. I don't think Sailnet is interested in the topic, and I'm certainly not going to start a thread on multihulls only to put work in it and have it shut down.


I dont care what the mods do with this thread, sailnet is less moderated than CF, and the members here are more forgiving of nonsense than on SA, whatever, fine with me.

But, I have seen no evidence this forum has a bias against multis. The thread you are referring to was spoiling for a fight from the very first post. The op said in the very first post that he expected only experienced large cat sailors to respond when he himself only has a small beach cat, which would have disqualified him from his own thread. However, no doubt the guy who basically said he couldnt post on his own thread would have been all over any one who disagreed with him.

To me this appears to be a way to carry on the series of closed threads, the Oyster thread might have been chosen because it is a classic example of what is often considered a blue water boat. The enemy.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

colemj said:


> Should this forum really become controlled only by the interests of a select few? Should it be solely informational and instructional topics that you come to when you need to rebuild your water pump and nothing more?
> 
> Mark


So a few of us were part of such a forum a few years back.

Wonder how the cruising stuffiminto forum is going now?
(I was banned for 99 years).


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> To me this appears to be a way to carry on the series of closed threads, the Oyster thread might have been chosen because it is a classic example of what is often considered a blue water boat. The enemy.


I've done no such thing. I have posted most of the catamaran stuff here and have attempted to relate it to speculation about Oyster. If speculation rather than fact is bothering you, then refer to the post of mine you quoted.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chall03 said:


> Wonder how the cruising stuffiminto forum is going now?
> (I was banned for 99 years).


Dude, I am the poster child for abuse from that dipstick. My abuse goes back to 2005 and I still can't think about it without wanting to borrow ianjoub's new gun. I've met the guy. Consider yourself lucky you didn't.

Mark


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

colemj said:


> ....wanting to borrow ianjoub's new gun....


OK, that's pretty darn good. :smile


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

No ColeMJ, not you.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Smack,

You often come off as pontificating and professing...you see the 'new' light that others may be blind to...and you run it into the ground.
It's like you are hyped and on a roll with no speed bumps/slowing along the way.

Campfire talk is great. But it's not fun when somebody tries to own the fire.

No ill will meant...at all, really.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

colemj said:


> Dude, I am the poster child for abuse from that dipstick. My abuse goes back to 2005 and I still can't think about it without wanting to borrow ianjoub's new gun. I've met the guy. Consider yourself lucky you didn't.
> 
> Mark


I'm sorry you had that bad an experience Mark. I was aware that there were some threats of actual physical violence made against another member and unhinged is the term that comes to mind.

FWIW I appreciate the insight and experience in Multi sailing you have shared in this thread.

Thankyou - I have learn't a thing or two.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> So a few of us were part of such a forum a few years back.
> 
> Wonder how the cruising stuffiminto forum is going now?
> (I was banned for 99 years).


You are so much worse than I am. I only got 6 months - during which time I Churchlady'd all over that forum. Ah, those were the days. Roadtrips.

Maybe we could start a new multi forum and call it Anything-Saling.com.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

It seems like some of you are blinded in your mission to hate on particular people/topics.

You should be embarrassed with yourselves and go back and acknowledge that Capta brought the catamaran topic to this thread. Then MarkJ picked it up. I came in after that, and have been responsible for 40 of the 225 posting here - more than any other person. Smackdaddy only first responded when he was specifically challenged, where he posted some actual rationale. 

Smackdaddy's next post was to agree with a comment from MarkJ about their preferences for their next boats. He later presented researched and demonstrable facts about the boat industry in the US. It wasn't until 67 posts into the thread that he posted only multihull content.

All of you haters were completely dry on the topic of Oyster's demise well before post 67. Way before that.

And then it wasn't until post #144 or so when Smackdaddy again posted mainly multihull content. But that was in response to a couple of my posts. Between posts #67 and #144, all he did was respond to questions or comments from other people, and they were short and to the point.

If you haters are going to hate, you need to at least be good at it. Right now you suck, because you can't even seem to keep track of what/who you are hating on. Or at least are calling up alternate facts and realities. Then you have the audacity to carp about a perceived "carrying on" and baiting by someone, yet you yourselves start threads purposefully for that intent.

So are you real humans that can admit your mistakes in this matter, or are you going to weasel on like always?

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I was commenting on the whining and bubbling about the previous multi thread which has been linked into this thread several times. Since that thread was closed we are going to post about it here to prove a point type of atitude. If somebody didnt want that closed thread brought up, then they shouldnt have brought it up here. Whine about it beong closed then complain when somebody suggests there was a less than stellar first post on that thread?

That thread was BS, I doubt it being closed had anything to do with content and everything to do with tone. If somebody doesnt like heat, then maybe stop lighting fires under themselves.


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## WharfRat (Aug 4, 2015)

smackdaddy said:


> Wharf - that second quote of yours certainly doesn't line up with the one I posted from Chall's article...
> 
> Like I said then in post #4 - it appears poor math was a major factor in this from many different angles. My guess is that the 745 got zero interest and HTP cut their losses. Whatever it was that sure happened fast after that January launch.


Actually the two sources could contain consistent statements. Book is not the same as cash on hand, or even accounts receivable. That's why businesses have a book-to-bill ratio. Since Oyster was not a publicly traded firm, we don't know what their quarterly book-to-bill was, but we can safely infer it was not great.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

New England has one of the most inventive Multi N.A.s around-Chris White. he has a truly dedicated following (I’m one). I’ve done Newport Bermuda on one of his early designed tris. I think his MastFoil concept very interesting and functional for a cruising boat.His cockpit in front of the deck house and internal steering station is now de rigor. 
The first plans for series production multis were drawn by another New Englander. Herreshoff.
So multis aren’t something new and the Polynesians have been crossing oceans in them for eons.
Still the attitude they are the end all and be all is foolish. A informative critique would be of more interest than the current level of drivel.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> It is not only what I see - it is the whole industry and its numbers. I've been trying to post facts and reasoning and not just drawing my conclusion from what I see locally around me. I was hoping that came across clearer than it apparently is.
> 
> Like I mentioned earlier, New England really isn't multihull country for several reasons, even though you have one of the pioneers, Walter Greene, right there in Maine. The Great Lakes, likewise, isn't going to be over-run by multihulls any time soon.
> 
> ...


If I am correct most of these cat makers are not based in the States. And many of them started out or were put into charter in regions like the Caribbean. Obviously I don't monitor the world wide trends and have an on the ground sense that someone in Europe might. And perhaps the market for new boats in USA is much smaller? I don't know... and I don't care much either.

I simply report what I observe. If they are pouring out hulls... they are not ending up where I am sailing as I reported. I believe the reason my be twofold:

too expensive 
too difficult to berth and store on the hard

I have nothing else to say on this except that I do not care for the aesthetics of most catamarans.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

SanderO said:


> I have nothing else to say on this except that I do not care for the aesthetics of most catamarans.


That used to be me as well.

I will confess that as a decade plus mono sailor I just never really considered cats to be 'real sailing'. It just felt all wrong for me. This is of course was the very definition of bias. I was very silly.

I must now admit I am drawn to a few cat designs. Especially Fountaine Pajot of late and my last experience sailing on one recently was thoroughly enjoyable.

EDIT: I like talking Cats. I have a question or two so I have started a new thread HERE.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Rumor on the proverbial docks around here is that Oyster was burning huge amounts of cash on R&D for their massive monos. The order book was good, but it was being spent faster than it came in. The private equity investor bought in to make money on the brand and they were. The CEO wouldn’t stay reasonable with R&D. 

The other rumor is that someone will defintiely buying them out of liquidation, fire all the old exec staff and do it again. I’m speculating this liquidation invalidates their employment contracts and avoids big severance. Life will carry on with their brand. We’ll see.

Maybe they’ll make a cat one day, who knows. The cat conversation that’s hard to have is when it’s claimed they are going to take over the entire market because they’ve grown to something around 20% of it. Will it grow more? I think so. Will it flip and become 80/20 cats/monos. Only if all the lower end buyers stop sailing altogether.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

chall03 said:


> That used to be me as well.
> 
> I will confess that as a decade plus mono sailor I just never really considered cats to be 'real sailing'. It just felt all wrong for me. This is of course was the very definition of bias. I was very silly.
> 
> I must now admit I am drawn to a few cat designs. Especially Fountaine Pajot of late and my last experience sailing on one recently was thoroughly enjoyable.


One can't see the 'lines' / aesthetics from inside the boat.

My boat is for tourism. It let's me get from Point A to Point B and for accommodation once there.

If I was a racer type person the 'lines' again mean nothing. Speed does.

So everyone should do one of those silly analysis: what do I want my boat for? 
If number 1 on the list is: "so other people think it's pretty" then they and I are miles apart and I raise my eyes above them and grab my beer and go find a 'me' person to talk to. ☺?☺


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Minnewaska said:


> The other rumor is that someone will defintiely buying them out of liquidation, fire all the old exec staff and do it again. I'm speculating this liquidation invalidates their employment contracts and avoids big severance. Life will carry on with their brand. We'll see.


This is my expectation. The brand has value. Would be very surprised if someone doesn't snap up the brand.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Nobody here claimed catamarans were taking over the entire market - if they did, please point me to it because I missed it. Facts matter. 

The speculation, data, and rationale presented were only that the market share gains for catamarans have been at the expense of monohulls. In other words, the market isn't growing - it is shifting. 

20% is huge in this light (and that was only the US market, BTW). If one is talking about new boats 35'+ and over, then a majority of catamaran sales could easily happen, because there really is no "low end" here in absolute terms. All boats here are >$150,000, and new catamarans are priced the same as comparable monohulls. You may be confusing the new market for boats with the overall population of boats. However, buying a used Hylas doesn't keep Hylas in business, and buying a used Pearson doesn't put Catana out of business.

Now, nobody has a lot of data because nobody has access to the business numbers outside some loose trade industry stuff. What we do have supports this hypothesis. The rationale is pretty solid for it also. Speculation is what these boards are for, and so far it has been pretty grounded.

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> One can't see the 'lines' / aesthetics from inside the boat.
> 
> My boat is for tourism. It let's me get from Point A to Point B and for accommodation once there.
> 
> ...


Your question is the key here... and one can apply the old "form follows function" rule ... function being the intended "use". Both monos and cats will get you from here to there.... But cats have more living space than monos and this equates to comfort and functionality.

But how much space do you need? How much do I need? Accumulation of stuff will grow to meet the space to store/house it. If you feel space limited by a mono... then a cat seems to be what you need.

I think many sailors are OK with largish monos space wise. I suspect many / most sailors don't mind or even like to heel and be IN the water as opposed to ON the water.

I can see that "power boats" have way more volume and space than the equivalent LOA of a sailboat. And it seems that operating them is simply compared to sailing... and likely why many have them.

And then there's the guest list. If sailing is a party social experience... space and volume would be an asset. If you are basically sailing single handing a lot of space may not be an advantage.

I personally don't feel limited by the space / volume on the mono I sail... especially since there is almost never a more than 4 on board and usually two. Same calculus goes to have two heads... makes no sense for how I use the boat. My use my be outside the norm...

+++

finally my thing for aesthetics has nothing to do with "exhibitionism".... it's purely for my own aesthetic satisfaction... which is why a go to museums... or attend ballet and so on... aesthetics matter to me.... and YES I know this is subjective.

It is what it is.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

SanderO said:


> which is why a go to museums... or attend ballet and so on... aesthetics matter to me.... and YES I know this is subjective.


I just go the the Ballet to see which girl I would like to massage her bunnions.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I just go the the Ballet to see which girl I would like to massage her bunnions.


Never heard this... hahahaha.... stand at the stage door and pass out cards... bunions lovingly attended to...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

When in college took ballet lessons. Learned how to pick up a person running at you at speed. Got a lot of exercise. It was a wonderfully relaxing work out. Side benefit is these ladies are phenomenal athletes. Like many extremely fit constantly working out athletes they have rare or no periods.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> When in college took ballet lessons. Learned how to pick up a person running at you at speed. Got a lot of exercise. It was a wonderfully relaxing work out. Side benefit is these ladies are phenomenal athletes. Like many extremely fit constantly working out athletes they have rare or no periods.





outbound said:


> A informative critique would be of more interest than the current level of drivel.


Ladies and gentlemen, thread drift is now approved by The Board.

Chall - I'm going to PM a mod and ask them if they can move the multi posts in this thread into a new one. There's a lot of great stuff in here that would be a pain to replicate in your new one.

Then maybe everyone will be happier. And we'll see who really wants to talk boats and who wants to just throw forks.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Since there is almost no real information on Oyster after the first post or so, even from the peanut gallery, why not just change the title of this thread?

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> Since there is almost no real information on Oyster after the first post or so, even from the peanut gallery, why not just change the title of this thread?
> 
> Mark


I sent them all a PM. That would be fine with me if it's okay with Chall. We'll see what comes down from Mt. Sinai.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Discussions about the merits of various boats, rigs, hulls forms, rudders and so forth... have some intellectual value. Of course for someone contemplating a new boat.... these sorts of discussions can inform their buy decision process.

Some members have a range of experience of many years including a range of boats, hulls forms, rigs, equipment and so on... other such as me have lots of experience with A boat for decades. I can only extrapolate my experience and the features if my own boat and add to these discussions. I can't comment on Garmin because I don't and haven't used them... or a balanced spade rudder. I think everyone's comments need to be qualified by their direct experience. Bob Perry on the other hand is a naval architect and his opinions outweigh almost everyone else's. But he may not have experience in cruising in the Caribbean for example (a guess) and he likely won't wade into such conversations.

I have no interest in boats over mid 40s... so the Oyster closing is only tangentially interesting to me about what it says about boat builders and how they are meeting demand.

Cats still are relatively new and so what is informing the buying decisions? I had always thought the cats were introduced to the charter market... people were exposed to them and began to demand cats for themselves... and so manufactures then began producing boats to meet the private cruiser demand.

So for those cat lovers who invaded this thread... and presumably did not begin as a cat owner... what is the appeal of a cat? Is this subjective? Or are the reasons demonstrably objective?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SanderO said:


> Is this subjective? Or are the reasons demonstrably objective?


Please no offense Sander, but let me be honest with you. Judging by your posts here and elsewhere (for years now) there's very little that is "demonstrably objective" to you in particular. You tend to believe what you want to believe based on what you see around you and - as you repeatedly say - don't care about much beyond that. And that's fine - but, in my view, it's not worth a serious attempt at discussion with you because of that. Why put forth the effort if you really don't care?

That said, I'm glad you finally are okay with thread drift. That's a start. And you've asked a valid question.

Now, I can't personally answer that question because I've not yet owned a cat. But, I can say I will likely never own a mono again because all my research on cats thus far has shown me virtually nothing but pros over monos.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I suspect that some day when I retire, I will want a mono, but if I want my wife to come along - a cat would help greatly. She'd like it. 

I like the boat heeling over. That, I really really like. I like leaning my motorcycle over too. Some guys ride those trike things. Again, no lean = no fun.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Please no offense Sander, but let me be honest with you. Judging by your posts here and elsewhere (for years now) there's very little that is "demonstrably objective" to you in particular. You tend to believe what you want to believe based on what you see around you and - as you repeatedly say - don't care about much beyond that. And that's fine - but, in my view, it's not worth a serious attempt at discussion with you because of that. Why put forth the effort if you really don't care?
> 
> That said, I'm glad you finally are okay with thread drift. That's a start. And you've asked a valid question.
> 
> Now, I can't personally answer that question because I've not yet owned a cat. But, I can say I will likely never own a mono again because all my research on cats thus far has shown me virtually nothing but pros over monos.


This a forum for the exchange of ideas. That's what I use it for... read what others have to say about a thread OP.. taking everything with a grain of salt... and sharing my own admittedly very subjective experience. That's all I can do. I write for no one but myself and my circumstances. Why not?

There are aspects of sailing and boats that interest me... maintenance issues... new equipment such as navigations, networking, diesel care, and communications... issues of law... things like dinghies and OBs... I am a boat owner and these are my "needs"

Some threads can be interesting when they don't apply to me.... AC... foils... and I may or may not toss my OPINIONS into the discussion.

I asked you what are the things pulling you to a cat or turning you away from a mono... you dodged the question and commented by my posting history. Duly noted.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Sal Paradise said:


> I suspect that some day when I retire, I will want a mono, but if I want my wife to come along - a cat would help greatly. She'd like it.
> 
> I like the boat heeling over. That, I really really like. I like leaning my motorcycle over too. Some guys ride those trike things. Again, no lean = no fun.


You know, that's what's cool about these conversations. When I first joined SN in 2008 I joined because of a great thread called "Fight Club For Sailors". It was HUGELY controversial because it posited that dipping a rail was what sailing was all about. This was sacrilege to the "prudent-skipper" crowd here on SN who felt that the boat should be "better managed" than that.

So, I spent the first several years of my sailing life dipping the rail every chance I could get. I loved it! My wife loved it! And even though our 4-year-old was thrown across the cabin once - he and his big brother loved it!

BUT - after doing years of long offshore races and deliveries where you've got that lean going for days on end...I began to grow tired of it. Doing everything you have to do 24/7 fighting that lean just got old. It's really tiring.

So, now I'm really looking forward chilling flat on a cat. Who knows - I might even race it!


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Too much heel is not a good thing... you are making too much leeway... and loosing VMG. I hate burying my rail... and it very very very rarely happens because I have high free board for one, and try to reef when the wind pipes up... when I am lazy I get into the too heeled trap. Fifteen degrees is all I will heel and it's hard enough to cook etc... but if you staying put... it feels like your sailing... flat feels like motoring.

Look at my avatar... that is how I like to sail to weather...


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> Bob Perry on the other hand is a naval architect


Bob Perry designed one of the most beautiful catamarans I have seen. Fantastic performer, also.



SanderO said:


> I had always thought the cats were introduced to the charter market... people were exposed to them and began to demand cats for themselves... and so manufactures then began producing boats to meet the private cruiser demand.


You have this completely backward. Catamaran production was aimed at private demand for decades before the charterers started clamoring for them in that market, and manufacturers began dedicating production to it. While it hardly seems so, large charter companies and the popularity of bareboat charters are a relatively new thing.

Prout, Heavenly Twins, Catalac, Gemini, Iroquois, Edel, early Fountain Pajot, Privilege - most of these go back to the 70's and aimed at private sales. Privilege might have led the way into charter territory, and FP certainly jumped in quickly, but it was decades later.



SanderO said:


> So for those cat lovers who invaded this thread... and presumably did not begin as a cat owner... what is the appeal of a cat? Is this subjective? Or are the reasons demonstrably objective?


Both, but one will never convince anyone who has firmly set bias of anything objective.

If I may take the liberty of projecting on you, a multihull makes no sense for local sailing and short weekending trips unless you are specifically looking to spend those days on the water inching out high performance. If that is the case, a smaller trimaran is better suited than a larger catamaran. A ride in a F27 or Dragonfly 1000 in a nice 15kt breeze will leave you smiling, but isn't the most comfortable at the destination.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> ... it feels like your sailing... flat feels like motoring.


This is only Pavlovian conditioning - you have only sailed tippy boats, which get tippy when sailing, so equate tippy as sailing.

And it is only valid upwind. Do you feel like you are motoring when screaming along on flat reach?

But I admit that sailing most catamarans is like driving a dock. There isn't that "seat of the pants" feel. However, the feeling gets quickly lost as one moves up in size and type of monohull also. I laugh when people on Morgan OI's tell me how they think catamarans don't feel like sailing (or how we can't sail to windward).

For me, if I want pure sailing joy, I get in a good sailing dinghy until the smile needs a week to fade. Anything else is just debating shades of degrees.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> If that is the case, a smaller trimaran is better suited than a larger catamaran. A ride in a F27 or Dragonfly 1000 in a nice 15kt breeze will leave you smiling, but isn't the most comfortable at the destination.


Many years ago when we were still sailing our C27 on Lake Travis, the local yacht club had a "ride along" day - and it was a great breeze of 15-20 knots. My first ride was on a J24. I trimmed the kite and we were blasting. No knotmeter or GPS, but I would guess maybe 10 knots?

Next was a Weta. That thing was a blast. I would guess we got up to 12-14? But jeez it was wet.

Finally came the Corsair F27. We hit 17 knots easily. Very stable boat.

After you've been working hard to hit 7-8 knots on a Catalina - driving her as hard as you can...17 knots was mind-blowing.

And now you can foil!


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> Bob Perry designed one of the most beautiful catamarans I have seen. Fantastic performer, also.
> 
> You have this completely backward. Catamaran production was aimed at private demand for decades before the charterers started clamoring for them in that market, and manufacturers began dedicating production to it. While it hardly seems so, large charter companies and the popularity of bareboat charters are a relatively new thing.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this history... I never chartered and have little to no interest in it. I saw many of them on the water in the Caribe in the early 90s. I even became involved in a start up which had a large cat as a core of the fleet and worked with Kurt Hughes at the time.

I think most of the boats in southern new england are week enders... with a few longer cruises. I think sailors ... week enders tend to upgrade their boats to "cruising" status capability whether they use that capability or not. Take radar for example. Great for bad visibility weather and evening sailing. But how may boats in souther NE will go out in those conditions. Few... Sure you can get caught by poor visibility conditions and then your radar would be prudent. I had a wfax when I sailed back and forth to the Caribe in the early mid 90s... when I returned to the NE I sold it... no real need... and I stopped using my SSB.

Again... I see no demand for cats in souther NE... Why? Why is Europe different? Or is mostly the med as opposed to the north sea?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Cats are just generally more attractive all-round sailing platforms than monos.


I would say that they are generally more attractive all-round cruising platforms than monos, for those places most people cruise to/in.

To get into sailing, you go into a tangle of needing to pit specific boats against each other, and the grounds they will be sailed in. If I was interested in exploration of high latitudes, I wouldn't want a catamaran, or a fiberglass boat. If I was interested in pure sailing performance, I would only accept very specific boats - cat or mono.

But for cruising temperate climates, and making passages on the typical cruising routes during the typical seasons, and living aboard full-time, my opinion is that a catamaran cannot be beat.

Mark


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

smackdaddy said:


> You know, that's what's cool about these conversations. When I first joined SN in 2008 I joined because of a great thread called "Fight Club For Sailors". It was HUGELY controversial because it posited that dipping a rail was what sailing was all about. This was sacrilege to the "prudent-skipper" crowd here on SN who felt that the boat should be "better managed" than that.
> 
> So, I spent the first several years of my sailing life dipping the rail every chance I could get. I loved it! My wife loved it! And even though our 4-year-old was thrown across the cabin once - he and his big brother loved it!
> 
> ...


Slightly different take on it - I like sailing, motorcycling, and flying. All three involve a tri axial motion, a balancing of forces,healing, bank, lean.....a poetry of motion where my skill translates into this equation. It is not so much about burying the rail as it is that.

That said, I take your point.. It is a much easier life to be level....and I'd rather be sailing a cat some day than not sailing.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Instead of dinghy sailing - I want my boys to keep learning on our beachcat, _Fiasco_.


I group Hobies, Nacras, Windriders, and the like in the dinghy category. I didn't mean just mono dinghies. Anything that is very responsive, inherently unstable without humans being part of the stability, and sailed by one or two people.

On the other hand, wicked fast and responsive can be found on big boats, but generally for big money and crew. I was on this doing 40kts, but the facial expression it leaves is more of a butt-clench than a smile. The smile only comes after you are off it and your heart settles down.

Mark


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

smackdaddy said:


> We're a lot alike then. And I'd suggest...you need one of these...
> 
> [


I've sailed a real Hobie Cat and it was amazing. I love them. Could not get enough of it. But I need another boat like Custer needed another Indian. I've sailed a few Hobie Waves or whatever they are. on vacation..... plastic things and they suck.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I have no idea of the exact history of cats. I first encountered them in the Caribe in early to mid 90s and they were almost exclusively in charter fleets. I was under the impression that many of these charter fleets were essentially a purchasing option. Owner would buy and his boat would be put in charter for X number of years.... charter co maintained and made money from them and the owner got several weeks use and most if not all of the boat was paid off... then retired from charter as the charter companies use only quite new boats... this is not unlike rental car economics...

So as a floating hotel for groups of people in the Caribe this made sense. And I think these companies likely made more money from cats than they did from the many Benes, and Jeaneaus they chartered.

Since that time I am unaware of a cat dealer in NE... but this may be because I have no interest in a new boat. They seem too expensive but again I am not in the market so I don't know the numbers. I think for dollar for size... monos seem to be the match for weekend recreational sailors... and the round the buoy racing circuit. Sure if you are living aboard... more space might make sense... especially a family. No one will convince me that the majority of cats are not ugly.... and not sleek looking like a knife in the water. I am not attracted to the monster LOA monos either... everything is scaled so large that it requires crew for maintenance and operation... and though they sail... it's not sailing to me. And I think my "niche" is quite normal. There's only one place to berth a 100' sailboat in southern NE.... Newport. But Port Jef has just built two "slips" for mega yachts.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> I was under the impression that many of these charter fleets were essentially a purchasing option.


Not were - is. I think this is how they have always worked, but definitely how they work now.



SanderO said:


> Since that time I am unaware of a cat dealer in NE


There are several, but move a couple of states South and there are even more.

Mark


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Many people will not even consider chartering a monohull in the carribean. The space is just so much better in the cat.

Here in the NE they are too wide to keep anywhere and they lose too much heat in the fall.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Guys, you know what? If someone reads my posts on my observations of catamarans in the eastern Caribbean and says, “I think I’ll check a few of those things out before I lay out my heard earned money.” Cool.
If on the other hand someone says, “ That old San Francisco Hippie must be stoned out of his mind to think he knows anything at all about catamarans.”, well that’s great, too. No sweat off my back.
I’m sorry if I got argumentative; after all, I am passionate about boats, all boats.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

capta said:


> I'm sorry if I got argumentative; after all, I am passionate about boats, all boats.


I think we all are, cap. So does this mean you take back your aggro pm? Heh-heh.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> I sent them all a PM. That would be fine with me if it's okay with Chall. We'll see what comes down from Mt. Sinai.


Fine with me. Someone go wake a Mod.

(And look If Oyster opens up again anytime soon we can give the good folk a shiny brand new thread, unadorned by our cat drivel).


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Laser started what’s evolved into a good thread with much less chest banging and more information. You may want to take a peak there. I’ve been trying to give and divert others into a more balanced discussion. Unfortunately it isn’t occurring here.
It’s interesting there are more people I know who have gone mono to multi but I also know some who have gone multi to mono. Being dogmatic isn’t as helpful as being pragmatic.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> Laser started what's evolved into a good thread with much less chest banging and more information. You may want to take a peak there. I've been trying to give and divert others into a more balanced discussion. Unfortunately it isn't occurring here.
> It's interesting there are more people I know who have gone mono to multi but I also know some who have gone multi to mono. Being dogmatic isn't as helpful as being pragmatic.


I think Chall's recent post in that lame-bait thread sums things up very nicely.

The answer is "no".

Thread closed. What else is there to talk about?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> .....So everyone should do one of those silly analysis: what do I want my boat for?
> If number 1 on the list is: "so other people think it's pretty"................


Actually, I want to look at my boat as I dinghy back and feel good about it. Don't care much what others think, but having that sense of pride is what motivates me to spend the countless hours taking care of her, when I would rather be sailing. If she was just transportation and looked like a farm tractor, I would struggle spending the time that any boat requires to be safe and sound. It would just feel like chores, when I was a kid. I like looking at her and thinking I did that. Not for others, for me.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> Fine with me. Someone go wake a Mod.
> 
> (And look If Oyster opens up again anytime soon we can give the good folk a shiny brand new thread, unadorned by our cat drivel).


Cool. I have a great idea for a title: "Why are multihulls so freakin' awesome?"

Heh-heh.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

smackdaddy said:


> Cool. I have a great idea for a title: "Why are multihulls so freakin' awesome?"
> 
> Heh-heh.


It is all in the heel brother !!!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> If she was just transportation and looked like a farm tractor, I would struggle spending the time that any boat requires to be safe and sound.


Mine looks like a farm tractor. And, like a farm tractor, gets the job done.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Cool. I have a great idea for a title: "Why are multihulls so freakin' awesome?"
> 
> Heh-heh.


Actually, although I love you like a brother, I would move your cat posts over to the other thread especially set up for it.

Its just wank to take over this thread. 

So, please, .... respect the thread :angel :angel :angel


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

On the topic of larger LOA monos.... what is generally accepted at the longest LOA that are typically not professional crewed?

Seems like these very long LOA monos are a niche market... and a small one at that.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

sandero said:


> on the topic of larger loa monos.... What is generally accepted at the longest loa that are typically not professional crewed?
> 
> Seems like these very long loa monos are a niche market... And a small one at that.


70' +


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

SanderO, in the UK (where Oysters are built) their is a requirement for pleasure craft over 24 M (78 feet) or 80 GRT to have minimum safe manning documents. This doesn't necessarily mean paid crew, but if not the owners or unpaid crew must meet some professional certification standards.

Based on this, I think its safe to say the bigger Oysters, including the one that had the issues with her keel were built with the notion of having professional crew on board.

This link just scratches the surface, but its where I am getting my info from. It requires some digging to figure out just how many crew are required.

Of course smaller boats can be crewed as well, these requirements just define the minimum standards.

Edit: Forgot to attach the link
http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/regulations/pleasure-craft/Pages/hub.aspx


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Rules also change for canal transit and for moorings/anchoring and for licensure. So if you stay below 60’ loa you don’t have to deal with all that stuff. Below ~ 55’ the average couple can continue to run the boat in the absence of powered winches. That size is also magical as docking remains a 2 person process.
Have seen couples run 64’ sailboats and even larger Dashew power boats but that unusual.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Actually, although I love you like a brother, I would move your cat posts over to the other thread especially set up for it.
> 
> Its just wank to take over this thread.
> 
> So, please, .... respect the thread :angel :angel :angel


You have to remember. I didn't start the conversation about cats in this thread. So it wasn't me that "took it over"...brother.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Arcb said:


> SanderO, in the UK (where Oysters are built) their is a requirement for pleasure craft over 24 M (78 feet) or 80 GRT to have minimum safe manning documents.


Also over 24m/78 feet in some places you need a pilot. This is expensive.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> On the topic of larger LOA monos.... what is generally accepted at the longest LOA that are typically not professional crewed?
> 
> Seems like these very long LOA monos are a niche market... and a small one at that.


There are two ways to look at this. What's the largest boat a couple can manage? Or, at what LOA does an owner want crew aboard?

You and I have been around long enough to remember folks saying 40 ft was pushing the limits of a couple. However, much has changed, with reliable powered winches and furling systems. My wife and I are very comfortable sailing our 54ft, with no concern. We've even had to deal with dousing the foresail, underway in spirited seas. Admittedly, all I could manage was to drop it and lash it to the lifelines.

I know of two couples that each own/owned and sail a Hylas 70. However, I know one will use a hired captain occasionally, not sure about the other. They are designed for shorthanding. They usually have a tunnel bow thruster and a drop down stern thruster to manage them around the docks. Being healthy, I'm willing to say that my wife and I could manage one by ourselves.

On the other hand, I was aboard the Oyster 74 in October. 4 feet longer and wider too. I instantly realized, when I walked aboard, that a crew would be mandatory on her.

So that's how big a boat I think one could manage, if they're competent enough and the boat is properly set up and reliable. When most folks want professional crew is different. I think that starts around 60ft. As pointed out by others, I think most start dropping out of the double handed game after 55ft or so.

The problem is, boats are not big enough to have truly separate crew quarters until they get well past 70ft. I think that's why the 60-70 range are hard to sell. Too big for most short handed crews, not big enough for a full time crew.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

You can have separate crew cabins in smaller than 70 LOA I believe... These are not boats that would be sailed by a family... or maintained by one.... can't lift the sails....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> You can have separate crew cabins in smaller than 70 LOA I believe...


True. Technically, our 54 can be configured with a crew cabin in the forward V-berth area, that is exclusively accessed from the deck, down a ladder. However, who would do that for any length of time. What I think the buyer of a multi-million dollar yacht wants is crew quarters that keep them entirely segregated, but are nice enough for them to want the job. Lots of boats have sufficient bunk room for crew, it's a question of how private for the owner and acceptable to the crew.



> These are not boats that would be sailed by a family... or maintained by one.... can't lift the sails....


What are you suggesting are not boats that would be sailed by a family? Your note says smaller than 70 LOA, but I think you mean something different.

For what it's worth, our 130 genoa is massive. I need to look up the sf, I can't recall. Anyway, my wife and I can lift it. Not sure, we could lift much more, however.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Now that there is a cat thread. Think about what it takes to come back here and stir the cat pot anyway. MO.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

A good day out sailing a mate's Prout 38. My gal had something to say...


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

aeventyr60 said:


> A good day out sailing a mate's Prout 38. My gal had something to say...


Aev, you need to teach that poor girl about bikini tops and lined bathing suits. She might offend some multi hullers.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Well played, aev....

...but dude - that shirt...

..but then she puts the sign down...


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

The swim steps are a great idea....


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> Here is a great summation of cat vs. mono ocean sailing from a delivery/crew guy who had only done passages on monos before taking this Outremer 45 across.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Clearly just a Outremer sponsored scam.

I saw that video where a cat flipped on youtube, therefore all cats flip. It was on the internet so it has to be true.

Disgraceful behaviour by Outremer to get more of their flippy floppy deathtraps on the you tubes.

I imagine they probably have someone standing on the dock in Gibraltar handing them out to folk strutting a camera and sending them off recklessly across the dreaded _blue_ water of the Atlantic.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Why Chall! The nerve! Posting about cats in *your own* Oyster thread when you already have another cat thread! Have you no sense of decency, man? Heh.

I haven't heard anything from the mods about our request to rename this thread - so I'll stick with this one for now. There are TONS of great crossing and long-range cruising videos with cats on Youtube. I'm learning a lot.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> Why Chall! The nerve! Posting about cats in *your own* Oyster thread when you already have another cat thread! Have you no sense of decency, man? Heh.
> 
> I haven't heard anything from the mods about our request to rename this thread - so I'll stick with this one for now. There are TONS of great crossing and long-range cruising videos with cats on Youtube. I'm learning a lot.


Oyster update: They are still closed.

Carry on.


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## David Summers (Jan 27, 2018)

What a sad news! I love oysters -_-


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

https://catamaranguru.com/catamarans/why-a-catamaran/catamaran-safety


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## jtsailjt (Aug 1, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Thank you Chall - I believe I will...
> 
> Here's an interesting look at very similar sea-states and how a cat and mono handle them while crossing the Atlantic. Both use very similar dual headsails..
> l]


Interesting videos but the point of sail is where a cat is at it's best and a mono is at it's worst. If they were both beating or reaching, I'd expect the mono's crew to have been a lot happier. Also, it sounded like the crew of the mono were basically kids on their first offshore experience, so the discomfort they experienced might not have been the same as a more experienced crew. They could have helped themselves a lot by tacking downwind to cut way back on the rolling, as well as the constant slowing and then surging forward feeling you get as each wave passes, and would also have lessened the chance of burying the bow.

Nevertheless, the cat is obviously a very comfortable ride in these conditions and the speeds are amazing. I can definitely see the attraction and would like to get the opportunity to sail one of these more modern cats. All I have experience with are charter cats in the Caribbean and those sail like barges!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jtsailjt said:


> Interesting videos but the point of sail is where a cat is at it's best and a mono is at it's worst. If they were both beating or reaching, I'd expect the mono's crew to have been a lot happier. Also, it sounded like the crew of the mono were basically kids on their first offshore experience, so the discomfort they experienced might not have been the same as a more experienced crew. They could have helped themselves a lot by tacking downwind to cut way back on the rolling, as well as the constant slowing and then surging forward feeling you get as each wave passes, and would also have lessened the chance of burying the bow.
> 
> Nevertheless, the cat is obviously a very comfortable ride in these conditions and the speeds are amazing. I can definitely see the attraction and would like to get the opportunity to sail one of these more modern cats. All I have experience with are charter cats in the Caribbean and those sail like barges!


Yeah jt, I'm looking forward to sailing one myself! I have found TONS of great videos and other resources that are in line with what we've been discussing above - but it seems the mods are ignoring Chall's request to change the name of this thread and playing games with my posts - so I'll have to hold back for now.

I think the multi market, pricing, build, and sailing comparison discussion is (or at least can be) a very good one with very experienced people chiming in. Hopefully it can happen here on SN. But I don't know.

Anyway, there are plenty of videos that show these cruising cats on all points of sail. It's obviously true that they don't point as well as monos - at the same time I would argue that this can actually make for a more comfortable ride. Speed doesn't mean as much when you're puking and breaking the boat. One of the SLV videos I posted above somewhere show them beating into 25 knots...looking pretty chill.

As for the mono in that "Scary start" video - the skipper on that boat has done 2 VORs. So he's definitely got PLENTY of experience.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Yo mods - so what's the word on the thread rename/split? Shake a leg! heh.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Yo mods - so what's the word on the thread rename/split? Shake a leg! heh.[/QUOT
> 
> We get might thirsty waiting for that to happen..meanwhile, out on the water....
> 
> I'll take a few more today while out sailing a Lagoon 380...


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Who killed Oyster? Was it the butler in the library with the candlestick? Or the cook on the staircase?

So the story alleged is quite intriguing.

I offer it with the disclaimer that I actually know nothing firsthand about this story and so cannot speak to the suggestions and allegations put forward in the below link.

It does make for interesting reading.

THE OYSTER STORY

All I can say is just WOW. Even If only half of it is true.....

WOW.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

*Re: Beneteau 331 or 361*

It's interesting to conjecture about what Oysters folding will do to this segment of the yachting industry. As has been already occurring brand glamour will continue to decline. It will increasingly be faith in specific yards and architectural houses that will be the determinants in new builds. In this class believe one can expect an increasing proportion of pure one offs. 
Although there are climate change deniers on this forum most active sailors are cognizant that the last few years have been unusual and accept this reality. They foresee that for ocean sailors this state of affairs will continue and in fact accelerate. Beyond the host of hundred year events of last year during much of the current Caribbean season it's been too windy to comfortably sail.
Much of the prior Oyster segment was Caribbean in winter and Med in the summer. Although many of the boats in the mega yacht size power not sail for these passages many still cross on their own bottom. In the 55-65' range more of a mix occurs. So ocean safety is a concern.
In the smaller Oyster range Gunboat, Outremer, Catana and the like were competitors as were one offs of that 55-65' range. Lost of engines, broken steering linkages, and down flooding events leave Outremer and Catana as the major series production makers contemplated by potential owners.
In the larger Oyster range production series multihulls weren't very competitive as one offs from Irons, M&M and the like already filled that niche. 
Operating costs for multis, port scheduling, and service haul outs for multis comparable to the size range Oyster was making presents logistical and financial hassles not operative for monos.
So I don't think there will be any change in the proportion of multis in the large and mega yacht market as the result of Oyster folding. Perhaps their folding with lead to more purchases of expedition motor yachts given operating costs, change in weather and limited infrastructure. I know if I was contemplating a 80' Oyster (not happening soon) I'd also be looking at Cape Scott, Seaton, Norhavn and the like. Who needs the headaches. Look in the harbors of Antigua, St. Martin, or Bart's and see what new or recent boats there are.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

> In 2016, it was already back in the black. Just weeks before the liquidation announcement, Oyster proclaimed that they had closed 2017 with a "record order book of over 80 m GBP", which provides at least another 1.5 years of runway for the company. Why the liquidation then? Is there some hidden agenda behind it?


Yep - I pointed this out above in post 4. Now we know.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

chall03 said:


> Who killed Oyster? Was it the butler in the library with the candlestick? Or the cook on the staircase?
> 
> So the story alleged is quite intriguing.
> 
> ...


It's likely all "true", but probably not even half of the story. Anyone can make their side of a story sound compelling and absolutely right; I'm going to withhold judgment until I hear Oyster's side of things. That website is very well done indeed, but when reading it, we should consider the source and the reason it was produced. I don't for a minute believe that the yacht owner created the site to protect others as he claims; he put this together to gain an advantage (however small) in his legal battle with Oyster.


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## Untrained (Aug 10, 2015)

"But this is typical of Trumpkins, given their average status as uneducated, impoverished, ruralites."
I guess I'll stop reading here.
Pretty sad that I can't even try to learn more about sailing and boats without seeing these kinds of insults etc. To be sure, this isn't the only one in this thread but I don't see it improving from here. I thought sailors were maybe different.
Another naive assumption on my part.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

mstern said:


> It's likely all "true", but probably not even half of the story. Anyone can make their side of a story sound compelling and absolutely right; I'm going to withhold judgment until I hear Oyster's side of things. That website is very well done indeed, but when reading it, we should consider the source and the reason it was produced. I don't for a minute believe that the yacht owner created the site to protect others as he claims; he put this together to gain an advantage (however small) in his legal battle with Oyster.


A site like that doesn't help much in a legal battle. In fact it can hurt your case quite a bit.

And as for that legal battle - there really isn't one now as there is no more Oyster. Hence the site.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> A site like that doesn't help much in a legal battle. In fact it can hurt your case quite a bit.
> 
> And as for that legal battle - there really isn't one now as there is no more Oyster. Hence the site.


I agree with you on the issue of how much it may help him in his legal battle; I'm not a bankruptcy lawyer, so I can't say for sure on what degree it helps or may hurt (most tactics are double-edged swords). But I am a lawyer, and public perception is always a factor in any lawsuit, whether you are in front of a judge, jury or arbitrator. It's just human nature. And make no mistake: even though Oyster may be in liquidation, there still is a very active legal battle going on. Some court somewhere is going to divvy up the liquidated assets of Oyster, and the former owner of the sunk yacht wants to be as close to the front of the line as the law allows.

When I first started reading that website, I thought that Oyster might be angling to use bankruptcy to get protection from its creditors (our yacht owner being one of them), negotiate a settlement for pennies on the dollar (or whatever the Euro equivalent is), then come out of bankruptcy with their strong order book with no sunk-boat albatross around their collective neck. But if they are really in liquidation, that means that's all she wrote for the company; it can't reorganize or re-form. It's done. Hard to believe they'd blow up a viable company just to avoid paying one creditor, especially if they have insurance to cover most if not all of the losses. There's something else going on here with their finances, and I don't think it's all related to catamarans (sorry Smack), Trump, Area 51 or global warming.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Word I have, as I mentioned above, is the CEO poured tons of money into R&D and that was bleeding cash. Sounds like the investors final said enough and pulled the plug. Among all the other debacles. 

Anyway, what needs to happen in the marine industry is not a cat vs mono, or Rolls Royce vs Chevy, or teak vs plastic issue. What needs to happen is what the Japanese manufacturers did to the the rest of the automobile industry on the planet. They started making a product that was not further up the curve of reliability, it was it’s own curve. Changed the landscape. I’m certain that can be done. We are all way to complicit in expecting so much to fail.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Thanks a lot mstern, you got me in trouble...again!

As I was saying - the dissemination of all the documentation on that site makes me think THEY think it's over. But this statement at the end really caught my eye...



> Where did all the cash go?
> 
> Several peculiarities in the financial statements in Oyster's and their parent company's financial reports during 2012-2016 may point to the fact that there, allegedly, could be a premeditated withdrawal of assets from the company. We are preparing a comprehensive study of the same and will publish it when more information becomes available for public use.


That's not something you throw out lightly. So they might be building a case against individuals now. I don't know. I think what is clear is that you have a very pissed off Russian.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Sure glad I don't own Oyster 825-01. I wonder who does own it.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

That is an amazing website. The surveyor's analysis is pretty compelling. The pictures of the faying surfaces and the delamination at the joins are very compelling. 

I would not think that this site does mean that the lawsuits are over. Obviously this is only one side of the case, but I think that it makes a very strong case for the structural failures as a manufacturing defect, and a company not acting responsibly, but also for the possible diversion of funds to try to shield those funds from the bankruptcy proceedings. 

If this were under U.S. Law, and if it can be proved that the money was in the company reserve account in 2016 and that it was somehow disbursed out of the company coffers for anything other than normal operations, then they should be pierce the corporate veil and recover some of their funds. Moreover, it would be in the interest of the Insurance company to join that suit and try to recover some of the money that they had to pay out as well. 

There is a MSW full of shoes yet to fall.......

Jeff


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chall03 said:


> ..........
> 
> It does make for interesting reading.
> 
> ...


I just got around to reading the entire webpage. Thanks for the link. It was pretty much what has been reported to date.

I found two things to be notable in the story.

First, I understand this hull was modified and extended, but saw no mention of that. It's repeatedly referred to as an 825, but I thought I recall it was modified past 90 ft.

Second, this reference at the bottom of the page......



> This website was made upon the order of Rugiero Universal Inc. and Mr Alexander V. Ezhkov. The above represents, to the best of his knowledge, the statement of Mr Ezhkov's honest opinion, errors and omissions excepted.


Mr Alexander V. Ezhkov was the owner of the sunken yacht. The page might be a little biased. I'm not suggesting Oyster didn't royally screw the pouch here. However, I suspect there is at least a little more to this story.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Minnewaska said:


> Mr Alexander V. Ezhkov was the owner of the sunken yacht. The page might be a little biased. I'm not suggesting Oyster didn't royally screw the pouch here. However, I suspect there is at least a little more to this story.


No doubt this is very much one side of the story only.

I would of dismissed it except some of the info (surveyor reports etc) is very incriminating.

Like I said accounting for the disgruntled owners bias if even half of it is true then I am still surprised.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Isn't this why you buy insurance? If the insurance coverage didn't sufficiently cover the losses, his beef should be with himself (for not getting sufficient coverage) or his insurance company (for not paying up). The whole idea of buying insurance is to walk away with the money and let the two insurance companies duke it out.

I'm not going to re-read everything, but I think I remember some whining about not being compensated for loss of use. Was that covered in his insurance? If not, that's a risk he chose to bear himself. That's a risk that virtually every one of us takes with our own insurance, and most who have suffered total loss of their boat have endured that hassle almost every time it happens.

I'm not saying I'm sympathetic to Oyster's owners and employees at all, but I just have a little bit of a sour taste in my mouth over the vendetta that this guy is taking out. Maybe these guys did siphon money out of their business with a pre-meditated plan to liquidate. But I'd think it's the insurance companies and investors that have standing to bring a complaint about that. If the owner's insurance has paid up for all of his insured losses, he's sort of out of the game. (Correction: I realize that a person has a general right to attempt to recoup uninsured losses on his own. His success will depend on the court's decision about his standing, the merits of his case, whether any bankruptcy proceeding protect the accused, and other legal considerations.)

Make no mistake, I'd be super-pissed if I nearly lost my life over a catastrophic engineering failure like is being claimed here. But it's time to stop whining about loss of use and plunk down a couple million of insurance money on a used yacht to tide him over while he awaits his $10 million replacement vessel. Oh, the sacrifice!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I fully admit that I'd be going after these guys like crazy. I had a few minutes this afternoon to read a few more of the documents, and see that he is demanding €2 million for loss of use and "mental distress and disappointment". These intangibles far exceed any of the quantifiable uninsured losses that he claims.

Deplorable as Oyster's behavior appears to have been, I remain skeptical of this guy's motives. Making his own side of the story public does start to look a little like blackmail.

I have no knowledge of this beyond what has been posted, but I do wonder if there may have been other threatening letters to Oyster during construction demanding that they hurry up and finish his boat because it was running behind schedule, and maybe threatening legal action over delays in production. That's purely speculative on my part, but this guy does seem like he might fit the crybaby millionaire persona; someone who puts people into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" predicament. I've run into a few of those types in my life.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> he is demanding €2 million for loss of use and "mental distress and disappointment".


Exactly what I wanted from my ex-girlfriend.

:crying


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

So in an interesting turn Oyster has been resurrected from the dead by a software entrepreneur.

British tech entrepreneur buys Oyster Yachts, boat building to resume

Production is to recommence on the outstanding orders with a few interesting hints at the future direction. New management team as you would expect.

And also of interest:

"We are also actively looking, with Rob Humphreys, who is integral to this, at a couple of 40-something footers in the range, possibly a super high quality 42, because there's an enormous market there. They would have all the mod cons and the seascape [hull] windows that Oyster is famous for."

And sorry it doesn't look like they will be making any Cats for Smack in the near future


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> And sorry it doesn't look like they will be making any Cats for Smack in the near future


You really are trying to get me banned aren't you? Seriously, everyone knows that cats don't sink. But if anyone could pull it off - it's Oyster.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

chall03 said:


> "We are also actively looking, with Rob Humphreys, who is integral to this, at a couple of 40-something footers in the range, possibly a super high quality 42, because there's an enormous market there. They would have all the mod cons and the seascape [hull] windows that Oyster is famous for."


Yes there is a market there. Many more sales than for a 110 footer that will always be semi-custom.

At 42 feet you can make a high quality but modular built boat.

As for the new owner not having boat building experience... That's if little concern as he has the skill sets to successfully manage a product in development.
And can learn the few exclusive bits about boats in about 5 minutes.

Whether an office building or a navy ship things are built in modules now. Built off-site and bolted on.

It doesn't mean they are cheap or poor quality.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm too old, seen the movie and the sequel and the sequel after that.

'Richguy' with experience in another industry loves boats. Decides to buy 
choose one{marina, boat builder, marine product business};

After all, a good business manager is a good business manager in any business right? 'Richguy' can do it were others have failed.

'Richguy' gradually learns the truth as his bank account drains. The market is tiny (understatement how about microscopic), the margins are tiny, the risks are high, experienced boat knowledgeable employees are hard to find, and customers think when they call you they are dealing with a F500 company, even though it's you and maybe 10 or if your really big, maybe 100 employees. 'Richguy' looses interest, moves on. 

When I've seen it work, is when 'Richguy' decides it's a hobby, and 'Richguy' is willing to continue to loose gobs of money to support it. And how can we honestly laugh at the guy, as boat owners, we are all in that boat just to a lesser extent.

It's a tough business. We are all lucky anyone is willing to go into it. I wish them well and hope the best for anyone still trying to build something with a stick on it and some sort of airfoil, cloth or otherwise.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Elon Musk


Just a software geek who had no manufacturing experience

Untill he built Tesla.


Elon Musk who got Space-X into Space when his only manufacturing experience was making cars.

How stupid! He should have stuck with Neuralink.... whatever the f that was.



☺


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Elon Musk
> 
> Just a software geek who had no manufacturing experience
> 
> ...


Right Mark, but the actually is a big market for cars and satellites. And boat manufacturers aren't subsidized by the government. Don't get me wrong, I'm routing for Elon and Oyster.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Elon Musk
> 
> Just a software geek who had no manufacturing experience
> 
> ...


There's an outlier for every trend. For every Elon Musk, there are thousands of former millionaires who blew their fortunes on foolish ventures. We'll see which one this is, but I'd be willing to bet that the boat business is a lot tougher to squeeze a profit than tech.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Far be it for some business guy to try to run a country....

:devil

:devil

:devil


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Marks trying to stir up trouble. Are u someplace warm. I just finished shoveling snow


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

capecodda said:


> customers think when they call you they are dealing with a F500 company, even though it's you and maybe 10 or if your really big, maybe 100 employees. 'Richguy' looses interest, moves on.


I went with an owner to pick up his new Passport 54 last year and was expecting a bigger operation. I think it was basically the company owner and his main builder. Maybe there was an office person or helper that I wasn't aware of, but a really small (staff wise) operation. They get the hull and deck from Overseas, then add the custom pieces on site.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

capecodda said:


> Marks trying to stir up trouble. Are u someplace warm. I just finished shoveling snow


In London. 
But I have a cold so trying not to go out. Not drinking beer. So I am a bit edgey atm


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Slayer said:


> I went with an owner to pick up his new Passport 54 last year and was expecting a bigger operation. I think it was basically the company owner and his main builder. Maybe there was an office person or helper that I wasn't aware of, but a really small (staff wise) operation. They get the hull and deck from Overseas, then add the custom pieces on site.


That's a small operation.

Big but without semi - customisation would be where the money is... The the boat shows and what draws the crowds.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Passport is the same yard that builds Outbound. They will allow a fair amount of customizing. Builder of my boat says he lost multi K putting on the hard Bimini I requested. Given I also asked for a hard dodger he lost on that as well. Since my boat he’s built several with hard dodgers and they are different. Also got him to use closed cell foam instead of balsa. Changed the granny bars etc. etc. Don’t think there’s big money in small scale semi custom. Do think there’s more margin in a large production run that hangs in there for years of production. Of course the level of tooling and set up for serial production is large as a result so is the downside. What Bene does makes economic sense. Examine your market, make good decisions to get the largest slice of the pie at your price point , avoid niche markets. Pure custom is a crap shoot both for the yard and the owner. But the yard has the advantage as they’re dealing with a deep pocket crowd so over runs are absorbed. 
Passport, Hylas, Outbound have gone another way. Build a stick built boat. Develop cult appeal and strong following, have short money out on boats built on spec. (no inventory). Keep r&d, tooling investment costs low by having very long runs. This worked for Oyster as well until recently. In the large boat segment still works for Wally. Suspect one of the reasons Oyster is looking to be the next Hinckley/Morris is after the keel episode the target market for their big boats are a bit apprehensive about them so calling Baltic, Nautor or Wally instead. Personally if I hit the lottery would do a pure one off. Think that market and a large series production companies is where there is enough margin for some real interesting r&d. For now real pleased with dancing with the lady I brought to the party. But also delighted Oyster will stick around even though I still think those three vertical “windows” are hideous.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I think that's a pretty good summation.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Without reading 31 pages. Has anyone suggested a new boatline called Oster coming back after the lawsuit is past? That or it is purchased by a Chinese or Saudi national for pennies on the dollar as often happens with luxury companies.

If one wants to impress with name dropping, which is better "I own an Oyster" or "I own Oyster"?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

jephotog said:


> Without reading 31 pages. Has anyone suggested a new boatline called Oster coming back after the lawsuit is past? That or it is purchased by a Chinese or Saudi national for pennies on the dollar as often happens with luxury companies.
> 
> If one wants to impress with name dropping, which is better "I own an Oyster" or "I own Oyster"?


You can speculate blindly, or read the previous page to know the truth.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

TakeFive said:


> You can speculate blindly, or read the previous page to know the truth.


I read through 3 pages before guessing how it would end. I was not far off except the wealthy new owner is British not Arab or Chinese.

It reminds me of the joke, "How do you make a small fortune in the Marine Industry?, Start out with a large one" I am glad the company is going to be going forward. Last summer when my wife and I were preparing for a charter of a 43' foot boat, I showed her photos of an Oyster interior and told her this was the boat we were going to be on.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

I was thinking about buying them but my check bounced....

irateraft:irateraft:


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

TakeFive said:


> I'm not going to re-read everything, but I think I remember some whining about not being compensated for loss of use. Was that covered in his insurance? If not, that's a risk he chose to bear himself. That's a risk that virtually every one of us takes with our own insurance, and most who have suffered total loss of their boat have endured that hassle almost every time it happens.


He needs to make sure to add the boat rental addition to his insurance next time. That way if your boat is in the shop you can rent another oyster to get you around while repairs are made. Does Alamo rent Oysters?


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