# The Skinny on Hunters and Catalinas



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hello all,
I'm looking to buy my first boat in the 30' range (San Francisco Bay Area) and to me it seems there are many fine examples (okay, SOME fine examples) of the above mentioned models in my price range (18-25k). They seem like fine bay cruisers with lots of space and comfort. These are important because I am introducing the lifestyle to my wife. I have, though, seen a few posters deride the Hunter as a less than esteemed boat maker and I was wondering why that is. Is it because it is a "production" boat or are they actually shoddily made?

Also, my wife is gung-ho about doing the Baha Ha-Ha in a year or two and I was wondering if The Catalina 30 or the Hunter 31 would be up to the task. Are deck-stepped masts able to withstand a little bluewater sailing?

I'm aware that the Catalina is a bit bumpy to weather due to it's beam, but is this a deal breaker? I really do like the roomy interior!

Any information on these issues would be GREATLY appreciated!

Thanks


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Although some people have their biases, informed or otherwise, both are essentially the same quality and compete for the same market. Neither are intended as blue-water capable which isn't to say that people have not used and are now using both to cross oceans. Lots of blue water boats also have deck sterpped masts which should not be a concern. My take on this type choice is look for whichever you find that is better maintained and pleasing to your wallet and aesthetic taste, the latter being particularly important if you want your wife to enjoy spending time on it.

FAR too many people obsess over what a real true blue water designed boat constitutes without recognizing it spends 90% of it's time in harbor.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I am partial to Catalinas and can list many reasons why, but instead will simply say that I agree for the most part with K1.

- CD


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

You can probably do a search on this site and get more information on this subject then you could ever possibly read. The information you have so far is enough. Buy a boat you like and that is sound and go sailing.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I've seen arguements both ways regarding deck stepped vs keel stepped.
Deck stepped mast will likely leave the boat easier without doing damage to the boat. Keel stepped can rip open the hole it sits in.
When keel stepped masts break, they usually break part way up leaving some mast to cobble together some sort of gethome sail.

As to hunters & catalinas...
There was a recent discussion round here that seemed to conclude the problem with most boats is owner maintenance. High end boats have owners with the ability to pay for good maintenance but many cheaper boats are bought by people who don't realize what it takes to keep a boat in good condition.
Therefore, be prepared to run into a lot of boats that aren't well kept at the production boat level.
Also do some research on the various models, you might find the bobber 21 was a dog but the bobber 22 was upgraded to address the doggie issues of the 21.


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## wiseleyb (Feb 11, 2007)

I lived on a Hunter 27 for five + years in Boston Harbor and sailed it in all kinds of conditions up and down the coast. I bought it for $10K and compared to my friends $50K boats it was a joke but, the price was right and I never had any serious issues with it. I also helped deliver a Hunter 45 from the BVI to the Bahamas that and that went off without a hitch ... we didn't hit any real weather though. 

I don't think I'd take one across the southern ocean but they seem fine, especially if you're a day or two from harbor (ie the Baja Ha Ha).

The French have pretty much proven that it's more about the sailor than the boat. Or maybe they've proven they're stark raving mad... haven't decided on that one yet 

If it matters, I'm on a Westsail 28 now... even smaller than the hunter 27 below decks (yippie!).

-ben


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Daedalus,
I would urge you to look closely at what's available in your area. I have a C30, and it's wonderful, but it was the only one in really good shape within 200 miles of HHI. Look and look some more. Look at Pearsons and everything else. It's fun. One thing I've learned is that the better boats are often, although not always, found listed on owners association sites, such as the International Catalina owners Assoc. That model of Hunter you're looking at sometimes has problems with the steering quadrant. I have to say that I really love my little C30, but if you get one that hasn't been properly loved and cared for, it'll bite you in the ass. But that's true with any boat. For a C30, look to spend between $18-$25,000. You're in for a great time. So is your old lady.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

I wish someone who knows how would conduct a Sailnet survey to determine how many Hunter owners are first time boat owners and/or new to sailing.

The next question would be how many Hunter owners are repeat customers.

This sort of empirical data might be more useful than all our opinions combined.


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

You might ask thre same question about Chevettes, Hyundais, etc, It really doesn't say much except that they're good starters..........


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

The Catalina 30 I would prefer to the Hunter of that size because I think it's a marginally better boat for coastal and because I've raced against them in all conditions. I would have two caveats beyond the obvious "they are coastal, not blue water" boats: a) that very large companionway scares the hell out of me in terms of getting pooped on a downwind run, and b) I've seen them get squirrelly to windward at about the 25 knot mark, where the lightness of the boat and perhaps the rudder shape seem to impart a lot of helming issues and lee around that speed, when the boat is being pressed. I've seen a few get laid down and struggle to recover. Keep in mind this was a race situation, when people keep too much sail up in hopes they won't have to reef down, but it's been a fairly consistant observation. Going to windward, they are better, but can get "slapped" by head seas more than four feet or so.

Having said that, it's about the most popular U.S. production boat ever, and is a decent club racer and cruising boat, but I wouldn't want to be caught out in a blow in one.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> I wish someone who knows how would conduct a Sailnet survey to determine how many Hunter owners are first time boat owners and/or new to sailing.
> 
> The next question would be how many Hunter owners are repeat customers.
> 
> This sort of empirical data might be more useful than all our opinions combined.


I've been shopping for a big hunter and I've run into many owners who are on their 3rd, 4th or 5th hunter, trading up along the way. Doesn't necessarily prove anything either way but they are around


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I agree with Xort. Hunter has an excellent re-buyer community that are happy with their boats and use them for the purposes Hunter designs them. 
A lot of first time sailboat owners buy Hunters, Cats, Bene's etc. based on used boat prices and a tight budget. I've known the owner of the largest Hunter dealer in the southeast for a couple of decades and he has LOTS of repeat Hunter buyers.


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## wiseleyb (Feb 11, 2007)

Daedalus, I couldn't reply to your private message because I don't (crimes against humanity) have 10 posts yet!  So here's my reply

I don't remember the model of the 45 I was on but it was a center cockpit, really nice (almost too nice) below decks... had a bathtub!  the aft-cabin was super nice, the kitchen was phenomenal and there was tons of deck room. It had leather furniture - which I thought was kind of silly off shore (come below decks soaked and everything is too nice to touch).

I don't know if this is all center cockpits (it's the only one I've even been on) but the motion at sea kind of made me sick (I never get sea sick) it was kind of a washing machine motion. 

We accidentally jibed one night in 15-20 and the boom bridge thing (it had this arch type thing that the main sheet was attached to - I'm sure there's some name for this) made the most horrifying noise I'd ever hear - I thought for sure we were going to loose it but, the owner went on to sail her for years without issue. 

I've done long off shore passages on a Choy Lee 38 (?) and an Ericson 38 and an Alberg 30 and I can't say the Hunter was any worse, except those boats had a better motion at sea. 

This was a long time ago - probably 1994 or so and it was a new boat then.

And... would I buy another Hunter? I was looking for a boat to take to Alaska, which I consider coastal, and I gave serious thought to a Hunter because they're so cheap. It would have made it (you can make that trip in a kayak). I went for a Westsail 28 (the polar opposite) for several reasons but, mostly because it was just such a nice boat. But, if money were the primary concern and I wanted to go gunk holing I'd definitely buy another Hunter.

While I've been sailing a while and been around boats for 20 years, I wouldn't consider myself that knowledgeable about makes, etc... so take all of this with a grain of salt.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Most Hunters aren't all that great as gunkholers. For what they are designed to do—coastal cruising and daysailing—they're pretty decent boats... much like their competitors—Catalina, Beneteau, Jeanneau, and such.

It all really depends on what you're going to do with the boat and where you'll be taking her. If you're going from SFO to Hawaii... a hunter or its peers wouldn't be my first choice.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Daedalus-

Looking between Hunter and Catalina in the 30' range, buy the boat, not the brand. Both will be fine for the HaHa. Check their website and you can see what type of boats make the trip. Obviously there will be bigger and better boats. You will just be slower and have a bumpier ride, especially coming back when its usually all into the wind. Make sure you get one with a good strong diesel. As far as Bay sailing goes, there are lots of both brands here in SF bay. The catalinas have a bigger following for club racing. One thing to be concerned about with the Hunters is that there are some that come out of charter here from club nautique and other places. I have seen them, and they are beat up. An option to consider is to become a member with a local school, OCSC, Club Nautique, or charter service like sailtime or windpath. That way you can use all different types of boats for several years before you invest. Its something I seriously considered. My personal opinion is that the smaller Hunters sail more like a bottle than a boat.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Here's a crew/boat list for the 2006 haha. as you can see many production boats made it. i would have no problems doing it in a hunter catalina or bene. just dont expect me to go to fiji or cook islands. but i would take one down the entire coast without hesitation. i might tell some serious tales upon return but hey!


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

I will say it again. Buy a boat you like and make it work for you. I really would not worry too much about deck stepped or keel stepped. We talk about making a jury rig to get home....hell, you are coastal sailing. Call for a tow! Thats what the insurance is for.

I have a C34, and have had her in 40Kt +. She liked it better than me, and I had a smile on my face. Would I want to do that kind of sailing for a month across an ocean? Hell No! I want a dock to tie up to and a bar to visit for dinner at night. I bought a boat for that, not to cross oceans. Buy the boat for your needs, not what someone else thinks your needs are.

Have fun!


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## sab30 (Oct 11, 2006)

I can tell you that I just bought a Hunter 36 for just that reason. Would I prefer one of my dream boats..you bet..but for now its learning to improve skills..get the wife enjoying her time on the boat...lots of creature comforts for a under 40ft boat..and of course sailing.!!! I chose between this and a 36ft Catalina..my reasons the aft cabin on the Catalina is not a cabin but storage..holy claustrophobia!!! And headroom at 6'2 it gets annoying after the 628th time you bump your head!! Many reviews stated that the later Glenn Hendersons design are a good quality safe production boat for my needs! I say just get a boat you like in good shape for a good price and go out and have fun...that is what its suppose to be about isnt it?

Hope that helps...


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

uspirate said:


> Here's a crew/boat list for the 2006 haha. as you can see many production boats made it. i would have no problems doing it in a hunter catalina or bene. just dont expect me to go to fiji or cook islands. but i would take one down the entire coast without hesitation. i might tell some serious tales upon return but hey!


From the list:
64) Camaraderie II / Beneteau 423 TB / Cancelled

I wonder if Cams other boat is a Bendy....and why did he cancel?

As far as masts go mine is deck stepped. If PSC thought the design was appropriate, I guess I'll have to believe them. There are arguements either way, but i trust my boat and its design.

As far as taking a production boat like this too far, read this story. Granted the biggest issue leading to abandoning ship was the medical emergency, but they had a LOT of equipment failure. They were down to emergency tiller for steering and they were getting asses handed to them, so they wouldn't have gotten much further anyway.

http://www.equipped.com/0698rescue.htm

The other side to this coin is of course, many sturdy blue water boats are lost at sea too. Take it for what you want to take it for.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Just my opinion (which I assume I have a right to hold and present!!) I for one feel that Hunters as a group are uniquely poorly designed and constructed, although some models less so than others. An exception I guess would be the Cheribini cutter 37 which has had positive comments on this board by knowledgeable posters. I wouldn't doubt there could be other model exceptions...But as brand, they are built to a price point and a design standard targeted at first-time boat owners on a budget, who may or may not be getting what they pay for, but certainly not more! Many owners love their Hunters, but frankly being as a group generally inexperienced boaters, why shouldn't they?

The first cruising sailboat I ever operated was a late '70s Hunter 30 that I chartered for a week in 1978. although it was only a year or two old, it was falling apart - the boat was basically trash. I have only seen reinforcement for this opinion over the past 30 years.

I believe that Catalina makes solid cruising sailboats, a class above Hunter in every regard. Although I prefer a more performance-oriented type, I happily recommend Catalina for reliable coastal cruising.

Now there are many Hunter threads on this board, where certain posters pile on me for my opinion, ad hominem is the typical response ("Although some people have their biases, informed or otherwise..") I always include the link to a review of a Hunter 28 http://yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/hunter28.htm which provides a detailed description of a incompetently designed boat. Could anyone imagine a similar review of any Catalina product?

To Hunter owners who have found boats that work for them, well congratulations and enjoy, different strokes for different folks.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Sailingfool
Although I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion, it is always interesting to hear on what they base it. Can't argue with your link other than to say my experience is "jaw-droppingly" different having owned a Catalina, Passport, Hunter and Hylas over the years and I'd be reluctant to form any opinion based on one charter boat experience 30 years ago.
The one statement with which I do have a problem is: 

"Many owners love their Hunters, but frankly being as a group generally inexperienced boaters, why shouldn't they?"

It woud seem a giant leap to assume hunter owners, or any brand owners, are generally inexperienced. Certainly you have a right to believe that but would be interested in hearing how you formed that judgement.

Among the boats my family has owned over the years is a Passport which is generally regarded as well-constructed and was used lightly compared with others, nevertheless, we had more problems with that than any other boat wer ever owned.

My point is that my experience differs from your's and it would be inappropriate for me to pass judgement on a mfg making broad generalities based solely on qualified, limited personal experience.

Not intended to debate the point, only to make it


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## Sequitur (Feb 13, 2007)

sailingfool said:


> Many owners love their Hunters, but frankly being as a group generally inexperienced boaters, why shouldn't they?


Yes, I suppose my forty-three years of boat ownership and sailing experience count me among the inexperienced boaters. I have owned only ten boats, and only four of these have been 45 foot and larger, so I must have allowed my woefully inadequate boating experience to let Hunter's marketing hype woo me into buying one of their 49s.

Many of the Hunter owners I have met have owned multiple Hunters; many others with whom I have spoken have moved-up from their previous traditional old-style, full-keeled, cramped-accomodation wallowers that they were told were required for "serious" sailing. One acquaintance of mine is currently 3/4 around on his *second *circumnavigation on his *third* Hunter. But I guess his inexperience must have led him to buy yet another Hunter.

Last week I rafted alongside another 49. It was owned by a fellow who has owned other Hunters, and he was preparing his new boat to head off back to New Zealand. Tell me fool, should I have warned him of his folly?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I agree with you K1, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, I would hope that people are open to new information and data that very well may contrast their old beliefs. Case in point, I came across Sailingfool's link to the surveyors article in the late 90's when doing research buying my first boat (which turned out to be an '84 Newport 28). At that point in time, I was friends with the local Hunter dealer, and even some of the brokers there would not buy a new Hunter due to the poor construction standards.

Flash forward nearly a decade, and Hunter has poured millions of dollars into new designs, tooling, hardware, etc. In my position I would often tell people, without attempting to endorse the product, "These are not your father's Hunters anymore..." Granted, it is hard for people to shake their old beliefs. But even VERY experienced sailors/delivery skippers have said the same thing: Hunters are vastly improved over what they used to be. The caveat being, most of them will add "as coastal cruisers". Even the same brokers who had poor opinions of older Hunters are sumarily impressed with the company's turnaround.

Finally, if I'm not mistaken, the original poster is looking at a new Hunter or Catalina? If that is the case, regarding Hunter we should deal with facts/rumors/issues pertaining to the Glenn Henderson designed series - not an article from 1998 that is about a boat built in 1991.

But if anyone out there is looking at buying a Hunter built in the early to mid 90s, then by all means post that link again...


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

But criticizing early 90's hunters isn't fair play either. I know a guy who is prepping for his third trip from US west coast to NZ in an early 90's Hunter P42. He's extremely happy with the offshore performace of his P42 on his previous two trips.

I'd be willing to bet that many of the hunter bashers are also people who decry the loss of US jobs to overseas companies.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Sometimes the critics do so to sound authoritative. Whatever...
Don't ever recall chatting with a group of cruisers anchored in some remote motu discussing build quality of their boats or mine. Everyody was too busy fixing stuff.


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

k1vsk said:


> Everybody was too busy fixing stuff.


That's one aspect that frequently see lacking in discussions of this type; and a category of quality that is rarely brought up.

*Fixability*

Everything breaks down eventually. For me an important aspect of a quality design is forethought to doing repairs. This would include such characteristics as:

Access to commonly repaired parts and areas
Universality of consumable parts
Simplicity of design
Logic: design for use, not flash

I don't mind carrying a small workshop around with me, but it would be nice if I only had to carry ONE set of every wrench, socket, etc.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

k1vsk said:


> Sailingfool
> Although I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion, ....I'd be reluctant to form any opinion based on one charter boat experience 30 years ago.
> The one statement with which I do have a problem is:
> 
> ...


Of course my opinion is not based on one charter experience. In the 30 years since, I've seen and sailed on many other Hunters, known any number of Hunter owners, and read any number of sailing books, articles, threads excetra containing Hunter commentary...thus my personal opinion formed over thirty years.

As to Hunters being the favorite of first time owners, that is my observation from Hunter owners I have known...plus over the years this board has been regularily populated with posts going "We bought our first boat...a Hunter.." like SAB30's http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38506.

I certainly admit that my opinions are based on personal experience, and that experience is limited (i.e. not without limits), I appreciate that you consider it qualified.

I can see you're trying to be reasonable about our differences, and I suspect we can come together on some middle ground, like:
"the new ones aren't as crappy as the old ones" or "more of them are actually decent than you'd think" or "you get what you pay for, if you are lucky".


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Wasn't suggesting we further debate this or that we necessarily have to find a "middle ground". 
Again, my point was that it is usually misleading and often wrong to make any generality regardless of whether it's about things, places or people.


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

k1vsk said:


> usually misleading and often wrong to make any generality regardless of whether it's about things, places or people.


Yes, generally so .....

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I agree very much.


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## Sequitur (Feb 13, 2007)

sailingfool said:


> Just my opinion (which I assume I have a right to hold and present!!) I for one feel that Hunters as a group are uniquely poorly designed and constructed, although some models less so than others.


Whenever I see such distorted opinions, I tend to search for the motivation behind them. Among the obvious reasons could be:

There is a personal axe to grind
The opinion isn't owned, but is simply adopted from the erroneous diatribes of others and redistributed without validation
The person spewing the venom works for, or has an interest in a competing company
The person slamming others is compensating for personal feelings of inadequacy
Fool, even after seven-and-a-half years posting on this board, you appear to be too insecure to provide any information at all on your own boat or on yourself in your profile. Is this insecurity, or is it because you really do work for a company in competition with Hunter, and you don't want to show your hand?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sequitur-

SF has a CS36T IIRC, and he has posted about his boat previously.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I AM GOING TO JUMP IN FOR A MOMENT AND CAUTION ALL PARTIES TO MAINTAIN A CIVIL DEBATE AND AVOID ANY PERSONAL ATTACKS. THIS IS HEATING UP QUICKLY AND THIS IS JUST A WARNING BEFORE IT GETS OUT OF HAND.

- CD


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Geez, I ignore this thread for a couple of days.

One Hunter story to relate, and I would say it might apply broadly to a number of current production boats in the same circumstances.

Last year, during haulout, an improper sling mark was apparently applied at the factory on a Hunter 28 named "Java Jive" at the National Yacht Club in Toronto.

This led to its bow slipping out of the forward sling. No "belts" were on it because this was not customary on fin keelers at that time...it is now. The Hunter 28 was approximately 12 feet above its cradle and it came down bow first into the asphalt.

Basically, the bow was crushed, there was a huge crack going aft just below the hull/deck joint, the bulkheads broke free (the forward bulkhead came through the topsides), and about the only thing that didn't get completely wrecked was 1) the cradle itself, and 2) the engine, which didn't shear its mounting bolts and was able to be salvaged.

Last I heard the Hunter owner was suing Hunter for improper decal placement.

Now, this isn't a knock against Hunters, per se, but when I expressed amazement at the near total damage I saw, an older club member said: "Wow, that's twice that's happened."

"Twice? You mean a boat's dropped like this before?" I said.

"Yeah," he said. "About 12 years ago, an old Alberg 30 dropped the same distance because a forward sling broke during launch. It landed much the same way, and destroyed its cradle. The difference was that we picked it up, painted the bottom and floated it the next day."

Say what you want about whether this is a desirable or undesirable feature of old boats, but I prefer the idea of "floating the next day" to chainsawing my vessel in the parking lot because it crumpled like a beer can. Maybe a 12 foot drop SHOULD crumple a boat like a beer can...but if that's so, what's a big wave going to do? Some of those feature 12 foot drops.


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

*David Pascoe surveyer*

Everyone should read his review of a Hunter 28. And I don,t think he is biased as he is very professional and fair I believe.


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## Gene T (May 23, 2006)

Don't be silly. A 12 foot drop on asphalt will destroy almost every boat. I doubt any boat could be floated the next day. So I would guess the other boat was dropped from less than 12 feet or it hit the cradle first and that took the brunt of the energy. That is not to say one brand would fair better than another. 

I check out all the pictures of hurricane damaged boats and Hunters seem to fair poorly. I should point out that there are a lot of Hunters out there, so they would have more damaged boats than other brands. But the hulls seem to be thin and the hull/deck joint looks weak based on the damage.


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## BigAssHam (Nov 5, 2007)

Sequitur said:


> One acquaintance of mine is currently 3/4 around on his *second *circumnavigation on his *third* Hunter.


What happened to the other two????


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## Sequitur (Feb 13, 2007)

BigAssHam said:


> What happened to the other two????


In 2001, he traded-in his first one, a used 34, on a new 46 and did his first circumnavigation in it. Then last year he traded-in his 46 on a new 49 and is currently in South Africa, preparing for his Atlantic crossing and completion of his second circumnavigation.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Over the past season, had occasion to help two people install thruhulls in the fwd section of their boats, one a Catalina and the second a Hunter of the same era, both late 1990s and both 40 ft LOA approx. We compared the hull layup in terms of thickness which is about the only realistic comparison without knowing the layup schedule and they were indistinguishable. As i recall, old Albergs were over twice the thickness if not more and would likely survive a direct torpedo hit. Not sure what comparing with the H or C to an Alberg proves.

About the only issue I can objectively find which would make me reluctant to take a larger H offshore is the size of the windows on some of their newer boats - I'd be too fearful what could happen with a breaking wave hitting one of those huge full beam lenses.

Since we see those sized lorts on a growing number of boats these days, e.g., Oysters, Jenneaus, Bennys, Hoods, etc..., it doesn't look like too many buyers even consider boarding waves and probably don't need to either.

I know there are lots of diehards who believe anything other than small ports, full keeled, skeg-hung rudder type wallowers is simply unsafe but in reality, it's all in how and where you use it, not who made it. 

Everybody has an opinion (including me) but it can be offensive, and often wrong, when one uses their's to criticize other's.

By the way, our Hylas hull thickness was essentially equivalent to the two mentioned above.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Maybe instead of condemning entire brands...we should stick to condemning or praising specific models/year that *we are familiar with *and/or series of boats (like Tartan 00 series or Hunter Cherubinis from the 70's.)

I DO think we need to keep criticizing certain boats for certain purposes because while we (with the exception of Hoffa!(g)) all love our boats, prospective buyers deserve more than a feel good response from owners. It would be nice if we only commented on the ones we PERSONALLY are familiar with instead of saying ..."joe bob crossed an ocean in one" or "I heard the rudders fall off" !


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> Maybe instead of condemning entire brands...we should stick to condemning or praising specific models/year that *we are familiar with *and/or series of boats (like Tartan 00 series or Hunter Cherubinis from the 70's.)
> 
> I DO think we need to keep criticizing certain boats for certain purposes because while we (with the exception of Hoffa!(g)) all love our boats, prospective buyers deserve more than a feel good response from owners. It would be nice if we only commented on the ones we PERSONALLY are familiar with instead of saying ..."joe bob crossed an ocean in one" or "I heard the rudders fall off" !


Joe bob? who the heck is joe bob? I don't recall any joe bob. Now, wise ass, him I remember!


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

*Joe bob? who the heck is joe bob?








Intrepid Sailor and Trapper Joe Bob (g)
*


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Gene T said:


> Don't be silly. A 12 foot drop on asphalt will destroy almost every boat. I doubt any boat could be floated the next day. So I would guess the other boat was dropped from less than 12 feet or it hit the cradle first and that took the brunt of the energy. That is not to say one brand would fair better than another.
> 
> I check out all the pictures of hurricane damaged boats and Hunters seem to fair poorly. I should point out that there are a lot of Hunters out there, so they would have more damaged boats than other brands. But the hulls seem to be thin and the hull/deck joint looks weak based on the damage.


Yeah, I'm aware that 12 feet would cream most boats, but I did mention that the Alberg hit the cradle first and mashed that. What was more telling to me (and again, it happened to be a Hunter 28) was the fairly systematic nature of the failures on the nose-dived Hunter.

I saw a row of boats tipped in their cradles by an 80-knot plus gale here last winter, and I was surprised at how different the levels of damage were for superficially sized and typed boats. That's all I'm attempting to say, really: that there are some quantifiable engineering or construction differences between certain designs (or the way in which they are executed) that allows some boats, seemingly, to survive a beating that others manifestly cannot.

Whether this is relevant or important to the individual sailor is a matter of choice, but I would argue that terms like "blue water capable" and certain international classifications of seaworthiness may not be (no pun intended) all they are cracked up to be.


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## dgarr75456 (Nov 6, 2006)

I have 30 years sailing experience and have owned Catalinas and Hunters. Each have their advantages and disadvantages, but I have no serious qualms with either. The new Henderson Hunters are good values for the money, are designed well and perform well.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

k1vsk said:


> Over the past season, had occasion to help two people install thruhulls in the fwd section of their boats, one a Catalina and the second a Hunter of the same era, both late 1990s and both 40 ft LOA approx. We compared the hull layup in terms of thickness which is about the only realistic comparison without knowing the layup schedule and they were indistinguishable. ....


What exactly did you find? How thick was it? Any way to detemine the number of layers?


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

davidpm said:


> What exactly did you find? How thick was it? Any way to detemine the number of layers?


David
Bad timing - just returned from the boat where I keep the cores but have not looked at them in a while - as I recall, both were approx .5 to .75 inches thick but that's a guess. Couldn't differentiate the composition to count layers. One thing I'd be interesed in is what type and how thick the Kevlar is in the newer Hunter bows.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Oh my!*

Wow, I left this thread for a couple of days. I had no idea I would be stirring up so much "stuff". I do thank each and every one of you for your impressions. This is all very helpful to me! As a first time buyer, I am so very glad to have a community of people who really know their business. Very reassuring. I can't wait to let you all know how this turns out!
Cheers,
Daedalus


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

With any popular production boat, there are general things to observe within the model lines. Certain builders have "off" years, in which economic forces, a change in management, the inability to hold on to skilled workers, or a resistance to making necessary fixes pointed out by the customers, can yield "bad runs" (or rather, runs that could have been better). 

For C&C, it's "don't buy the Mega 30" and "watch out for the damn wet balsa-cored decks", for instance. The current C&Cs are coming in for criticism related to construction robustness as well...whether it's justified I leave to those who drive them.

Hunter may be building great boats today, and has built decent boats in the past, but they aren't the first to have uncomplimentary things said about their products. Beneteau has gone through a couple of rough patches and arguably sub-par designs as well.

My point is that further investigation will frequently yield well-researched and well-supported reasons to favour one model over another, or one year over another, despite the fact that two boats from the same builder might be superficially alike.

If you want a Catalina or a Hunter, I would suggest joining on-line discussion groups to give you the greatest sampling of opinions from which to form your own.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well Daedalus, the only thing to do is be safe and buy a CS. They're faster and as a bonus there's a tad more 'cachet' associated with owning one ...


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

I raise my snifter of Brandy to the gentleman in the CS30. You Sir, are obviously a man possessing great insight.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

*Be nice!*



Sequitur said:


> Whenever I see such distorted opinions, I tend to search for the motivation behind them. Among the obvious reasons could be:
> 
> There is a personal axe to grind
> The opinion isn't owned, but is simply adopted from the erroneous diatribes of others and redistributed without validation
> ...


Sequitur,

This thread is about Hunters, not me, seems your post is 100% ad hominen, perhaps a predicable if desperate tactic when faced with the alternative of defending the indefensible.

As to my opinion being distorted, maybe you should expand your personal perspective. I suggest you read some of the following threads which happen to cover similar material and then assess whether my point of view is unusual:
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=41476&hl=hunter
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=61312&hl=hunter
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32928&hl=hunter
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32928&hl=hunter
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42042&hl=hunter
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=59298&hl=hunter
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=54845&hl=hunter

The above is just a sampling of dozens of similar threads. I'd suggest that such threads support my dim perspective of Hunter's history as at least common, if not mainstream, in the experienced sailing community.

As to my insecurity, members who have been around a while have had the fortunate (or not so fortunate, certainly opinions here may vary...) opportunity to read dozens of threads where I have shared my personal boating experiences, what I own and have owned, and I've even had my ugly mug posted (hard to hide if you associate with that Giu fellow)...Ditto for the Photo Gallery.

You might want to learn your way around...

PS - as I ended my first post in this tread "To Hunter owners who have found boats that work for them, well congratulations and enjoy, different strokes for different folks." and I sincerely mean it. I have no problem with people liking things I don't...makes the world go 'round..they can still be good people...except Yankee fans of course.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I stayed away from this thread because my knowledge on said boats is very limited, and if I have nothing to say...I say nothing.... I saw a few catalinas and very few hunters, so I have no saying here.

HOWEVER...(and about this I post), I have met and had the pleasure of sailing with Sailingfool, in less than normal conditions, and altough being a really really ugly bastard, he is a very experienced sailor, that has been around many many years, and knows "boats", from seeing them and feeling them where he sails, not from internet, wikipedia or other places, but from real view.

I can vouch (is it how you spell it) for his background and "credentials" in sailing.

I don't think personal opinions and getting down to the personal attack level is fare, just and a meritable action by people here.So you guys should shake hands.

We all have our opinions and God knows how many I have pissed off with mine.

I have never had the pleasure of meeting Sequitur, but he has allways treated me, in the few occasions we were on the same thread with outmost respect, and I like him.

I know he has a new Hunter he just bought and think its a nice boat, and I don't think he is happy to see his brand being criticized here in public.

I wouldn't like to have that done to me either. So his defense seems also logic to me.

I think if we all loved Mercedes, BMW would never sell a car....

There are boats and people, sailing needs, habbits and sailing grounds.

When all meet together...than "that" is the boat for "that" person, for "that" sailing" under "that" condition.


Now...mine is a damn fast boat


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## Sequitur (Feb 13, 2007)

sailingfool said:


> Sequitur,
> 
> This thread is about Hunters, not me, seems your post is 100% ad hominen, perhaps a predicable if desperate tactic when faced with the alternative of defending the indefensible.
> 
> ...


Fool,
Thank you for posting these links; I am familiar with them. To me they illustrate very well that it is difficult to have a discussion of Hunters, Catalinas, Beneteaus or other large volume production boats without some childishly inane and defamatory comments being posted. From your linked topics, for instance (with some editing of offensive words): 
"Dude just get a stinkpot if your gonna go slummin' with a hunter. How about a buccaneer?"
"Hunters suck, you're a peice of shi* for wanting one"
"Hunters need to be sent thru a very large chipper/mulcher to rid the world of toy boats with snap on decks."
"Hunters cheapen sailing as a whole and Hunter owners should be greeted with bronx cheers and full moons."
"Hunters are a scourge and a blite on the water and sabotage is what they deserve."
"The only good hunter is the one on the bottom."
"Hunter owners are all republican and voted for Dubya twice."
"Hunter owners do not really know how to sail. If they did, they would have never bought a Hunter."
"Hunter owners are either gay (not that thier is anything wrong with that) or have ugly wives."
"Hunters are one small step back from a Mac 26 - at least the mac 26 is cheap and doesnt pretend to be a real boat."
"Sailing a Hunter is like ****ing a fat chick...... It feels pretty good..... until your buddies find out."
"Hunter????? Don't make me laugh! A floating caravan with the cheapest fit out I have ever seen. Its sailing qualities are secondary to its requirement to be a marina queen."
"Hunters are the McDonald's of the sea."
"hunters and catalinas structurally sound and well built?????!!!!!!! that'll be the day pigs fly, hell freezes over, and I quit sailing."
"You went WHERE on board a Hunter? Into the WATER? In high winds of 12 KNOTS? OH MY GOD MAN! Do you have a death wish or what?!"
"friends don't let friends sail hunters"
"It's a Hunter....it's suppose to be dangerous, slow and weak, otherwise it doesn't pass the QC."
The use drivel like this hints at the intelligence of the poster. Do comments such as these add to an understanding of the topics being discussed? I think not, unless they can be properly substantiated, and it sure would be entertaining to have posters of such comments attempt a back-up of their statements.

Fool, I mean no personal offence; I simply ask that when you and others post criticism that it be validated with facts and that it be germane to the discussion at hand. For instance, in your post #20, you stated: "Many owners love their Hunters, but frankly being as a group generally inexperienced boaters, why shouldn't they?" Please offer us the data to back-up this statement.

And again, thank you for posting those links; they show one of the main spew buckets for regurgitators of anti-Hunter (and Catalina, Beneteau, etc.) hogwash. As well, they serve as a refreshing fountain to quench the thirsts of drivel spreaders.

Reminds me of a story I used to tell in my wine tasting courses:

A snobbish fellow arrives late at a wine tasting, and brushing-off attempts to stop him, grabs the decanter standing next to an empty claret bottle, whose label he could see reflected in the sideboard mirror. He pours a glass, skillfully swirls it, noses it with great ceremony and takes a sip. He purses his lips, chews thoughtfully, sucks some air through the wine and swallows.

Then with a furrowing of his brow, he says, "Bordeaux of a great year... Left Bank, probably a Pauillac... definately a Pauillac. Huge, like a Mouton or a Latour. And the vintage? possibly the '66... no, too firm for that... the '61, then, ... and a Latour. What a wonderful wine Latour made in 1961."

The hostess then tells him that the decanter he had poured from had been a spitoon from the tasting of Brunellos. The empty '61 Latour bottle had been left over from the previous evening's tasting.

Opinions are wonderful, but they are of very little use if they are formed from second-hand information, rather than from personal experience.


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## vabuckeye (Apr 30, 2007)

I would rather sail a Hunter than not sail at all. Oh wait, I do. I also own a Bayliner power boat. Shame on me.

Hope you all had a good Thanksgiving. 

Jim


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Are you guys going to provide any information that is useful to the OP and the thread? We have all heard this crap before.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Well, I was on a 1990-vintage Hunter 35 that a guy at my marina bought and needed help with. It is his first big boat from what I can tell. All of the seacocks are using gate valves...rather than ball valve or tapered cone seacocks. 

The raw water strainer was smaller than a 12 oz. can of soda and positioned with little though for accessibility. 

Some of the deck hardware didn't appear to have any type of backing plate or washers from what I could see. 

I can't say how much of the problematic hardware is original, but most of it looked of age with the boat.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Hello all,
> I'm looking to buy my first boat in the 30' range (San Francisco Bay Area) and to me it seems there are many fine examples (okay, SOME fine examples) of the above mentioned models in my price range (18-25k). They seem like fine bay cruisers with lots of space and comfort.


 They are indeed fine bay cruisers. This is exactly what they were designed for.


> These are important because I am introducing the lifestyle to my wife.


This is something deserving of another thread entirely so let's skip it for now 


> I have, though, seen a few posters deride the Hunter as a less than esteemed boat maker and I was wondering why that is. Is it because it is a "production" boat or are they actually shoddily made?


It seems to be the consensus that the quality of Hunter boats produced during the latter part of the 1970's was less than exemplary. That was thirty years ago.

That said, neither Hunter or Catalina designs a boat under 40 feet that is intended to spend long periods of time offshore. However, as you have not stated that you're heading off to Timbutoo next Tuesday, it's a moot point so don't worry about it.



> Also, my wife is gung-ho about doing the Baha Ha-Ha in a year or two and I was wondering if The Catalina 30 or the Hunter 31 would be up to the task.


Not familiar with the event so can't say. If it's a coastal cruise then absolutely. If it's a gruelling off-shore race, then not only will the boat not be up to it, but I doubt that two years will give you enough experience to be up to it either.


> Are deck-stepped masts able to withstand a little bluewater sailing?


It depends on the boat, but has little, if anything to do with how the mast is stepped.



> I'm aware that the Catalina is a bit bumpy to weather due to it's beam, but is this a deal breaker? I really do like the roomy interior!


That's your call, not ours. Every boat is a trade-off. Me - I wouldn't suggest you buy a skinny racing machine if you're going to be cruising. There is no such thing as a boat that does not have some uncomfortable motion at some time.


> Any information on these issues would be GREATLY appreciated!


I'm thinking you got far more than you asked for. Sorry for that ... the boys don't often have a new audience to sound off to. None of the old-timers will listen to it anymore 

Good Luck ! and let us know how things progress.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

It's very difficult to find objective advice here. Although there are lots of people here who routinely give it and do so authoritatively and in an informed way, it's also quite routine that some here have a propensity to criticize with little or no basis or simply for the sake of it making it difficult to differentiate good from bad advice. 
I've been around here long enough to now be able to know who is who but for someone asking this type question and is new to Sailnet, it's virtually impossible for them to possibly know who's comments should be ignored.

I suspect the moderator(s) here would agree with me that filtering these type comments is not only a waste of their time but is also a form of censorship which I don't think any of us would prefer. Self-policing would be an equally bad idea as it would quickly degenerate.

I don't pretend to know the best option to minimize this problem and I am dubious that some of the real veterans here may already be use to and therefore imune to it enough to dismiss both my comments and the problem. I would therefore ask that we all try to keep comments objective, informative and polite but not sure that's anything we all supposedly learned many yeas ago.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Daedalus said:


> Hello all,
> I'm looking to buy my first boat in the 30' range (San Francisco Bay Area) and to me it seems there are many fine examples (okay, SOME fine examples) of the above mentioned models in my price range (18-25k). They seem like fine bay cruisers with lots of space and comfort. These are important because I am introducing the lifestyle to my wife. I have, though, seen a few posters deride the Hunter as a less than esteemed boat maker and I was wondering why that is. Is it because it is a "production" boat or are they actually shoddily made?
> 
> Also, my wife is gung-ho about doing the Baha Ha-Ha in a year or two and I was wondering if The Catalina 30 or the Hunter 31 would be up to the task. Are deck-stepped masts able to withstand a little bluewater sailing?
> ...


Either boat will do you well. After the Baja haha you will most probably say "We need a bigger boat" if not sooner. If you do sell latter you won't lose too much, as long as you don't expect to recoupe the bucks you poured into your passion. If you look after the boat it will look after you. As the boat will be over 23 yrs old, any seriouse build faults would be well known and by now you would hope have been attended too (survey). Have fun with your boat and enjoy it, any way you feel comfotable. Both the companys are still in bussines, so they must be doing something right.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

fool
Since you posted the links to back up your comments then we can take it that you support the garbage posted on those links. Such as what Sequitor posted:
"Dude just get a stinkpot if your gonna go slummin' with a hunter. How about a buccaneer?" 
"Hunters suck, you're a peice of shi* for wanting one" 
"Hunters need to be sent thru a very large chipper/mulcher to rid the world of toy boats with snap on decks." 
"Hunters cheapen sailing as a whole and Hunter owners should be greeted with bronx cheers and full moons." 
"Hunters are a scourge and a blite on the water and sabotage is what they deserve." 
"The only good hunter is the one on the bottom." 
"Hunter owners are all republican and voted for Dubya twice." 
"Hunter owners do not really know how to sail. If they did, they would have never bought a Hunter." 
"Hunter owners are either gay (not that thier is anything wrong with that) or have ugly wives." 
"Hunters are one small step back from a Mac 26 - at least the mac 26 is cheap and doesnt pretend to be a real boat." 
"Sailing a Hunter is like ****ing a fat chick...... It feels pretty good..... until your buddies find out."

I think you should apologise to the list and to hunter owners for comments like those. You linked to them so they represent your feelings. "You are a piece of sh*t for wanting one". Well, I'm considering buying one so I can only assume you think I'm a piece of SH*T. Please delete your posts and apologise.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Uhhh---ohhhh

Fool you're an AFOC, then....

I'm one too....the Hunter is crap...it squeals like a pig, and if you drop from 12 feet it breaks...what a crap boat....

No boat dropped from 12 feet should break....

You guys need to lighten up....Xort...your'e an AFOC also...

Why don't you buy a telstar28??? most owners are AFOC obnoxious antway... (G)


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## Jim H (Feb 18, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Fool you're an AFOC, then....


Geez, another acronym I have to know to be a sailor. I assume you teach a course so others can get the elite AFOC certification? 

Jim H


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Jim, AFOC stands for:

Another
Fine
Ocean
Cruiser

I do not provide that course, you either have it or not...I only attribute the title.

No one here is allowed the AFOC title without my "approval"...

However, from your remark, I see you are on the right track to be awarded the title...keep up the good work!!!!


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

Giulietta said:


> Uhhh---ohhhh
> 
> Fool you're an AFOC, then....
> 
> ...


I thought only Giulietta - the boat - squealed like a pig! (I still think of that video, HAHAHAHA, too funny!! That video should be a sticky on the forum.)


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

HERE OFF COURSE

BUT HERE IS DIRECT


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

When I think of pig boats I think German, as in U-boats. But now we have POrtugese Offshore Pig Yachts. POOPY.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

xort said:


> fool
> Since you posted the links to back up your comments then we can take it that you support the garbage posted on those links. Such as what Sequitor posted:
> "Dude just get a stinkpot if your gonna go slummin' with a hunter. How about a buccaneer?"
> "Hunters suck, you're a peice of shi* for wanting one"
> ...


You have to be kidding - should I feel bad if what I feel is a reasonable, informed opinion make you cry? Get real.

That you might be considering a Hunter only means to me that we have very different tastes in boats...if a Hunter works for you, good for you, at least you won't have to waste a lot of money...the brand is what it is...

What do you think about Pascoe's review of the Hunter 28? Folks who have jumped on me personally seem to want to ignore it...


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Fool: Reasonable informed opinion to you is "you're a piece of Sh*t for wanting one".

You need to look in the mirror to see what that looks like.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

xort said:


> Fool: Reasonable informed opinion to you is "you're a piece of Sh*t for wanting one".
> 
> You need to look in the mirror to see what that looks like.


What I said is "Just my opinion (which I assume I have a right to hold and present!!) I for one feel that Hunters as a group are uniquely poorly designed and constructed, although some models less so than others..."

I 'm still comfortable with it, but it has brought out a string of ad homenin responses, several of which contain language I've never typed on this board.

A mature response to my opinion might go..."I disagree with you and here's why....". Someone with experience or insight to contribute about sailing might try that, otherwise let's move on.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

FOOL
You linked to the comment that I'm talking about "you're a piece of sh*t for wanting one". By doing that, you are supporting that opinion. I expect you to apologize for that. You want to 'move on'. 
Do you believe in the 'piece of sh*t' comment? Are you to cowardly to apologize? Are you a piece of sh*t for supporting that stuff?
This isn't about legitimate criticism, this is about being civil. You are asking for a mature response, how about giving a mature response?


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

xort said:


> FOOL
> You linked to the comment that I'm talking about "you're a piece of sh*t for wanting one". By doing that, you are supporting that opinion. ....This isn't about legitimate criticism, this is about being civil. You are asking for a mature response, how about giving a mature response?


I can't let go of trying to be reasonable...so I'll still bite in response...I linked to eight or so discussion threads, each made up of dozens of differing and conflicting opinions about Hunters, presented as they may have been. Many of those opinions damn Hunter, some praise Hunters, others are balanced, some talk about whatever...

Picking one comment out of hundreds and suggesting I need to own it is silly.

I really want to help you on this...think boats and sailing, say think a response to

"Unfortunately, there were other problems that continue to prove the point that *very low cost usually translates to very big problems*. It was not until she was hauled that we could understand why this boat sells at such a low price. The fiberglass content of the hull is about as little as it could be without falling apart. *The hull bottom was so thin that it frightened me.* In just about any place there wasn't a frame, *you could push in the bottom with your thumb.* Tapping on it with a hammer, it would vibrate. In the unsupported aft quarters, it dimpled as easily as an oil can...." (http://yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/hunter28.htm)

Take that opinion apart...


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Foo fear of retaliation, I'd offer this -
read my previos post regarding hull thickness compared with other boats - not opinion but observation.
Don't know where you guys live relative to the factories at which these boats are made but you might want to visit and see the realities of which you comment.
Visted the Caliber, IP and Hunter factories just last month and am writing a blog on my observations TBA and include a tour of the Catalina factory of this past September as well.
As one who has no particular agenda or bias, Catalina and Hunter are indistinguishable in terms of build quality to me and even if I though one was markedly different, I'd have to courtesy to not insult anyone...

oh, never mind, it's a waste of time if your parents already failed at this...


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

k1vsk said:


> oh, never mind, it's a waste of time if your parents already failed at this...


Now THAT was funny. I eagerly await your observations.


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## Sequitur (Feb 13, 2007)

Wow! I spend a day out sailing and look what happens... 
Sailing in a Hunter, you say? You can't do that! 
You're supposed to be secured alongside in the marina deciding whether to prevent the boat from self-destructing.... or partying  

Fool,

Most have seen links to that report on the 1991 Hunter 28 many many times, since it seems that your type delight in posting it as often as an opportunity can be found. Pascoe begins his report by stating: "First impressions are often lasting ones, especially when they are negative impressions like my first experience with Hunter in the early 1980's" ... "Your opinion of a builder is ever afterward tainted". .... Hints of prejudice here? Or am I reading something into this?  

For a sailboat that was supposed to be flimsy, there seem to be a lot of them from that era (1985-1992) still around, and still being actively, safely and enjoyably sailed. And as for Pascoe, he no longer does surveys or reports on sail boats, preferring to concentrate on power boats. He seems to march to his own drummer, and you will not find his name on the roster of NAMS, SAMS or ACMS. He also appears to be his own biggest proponent, aside that is, from those who relish in posting links to his old, and as he admits, prejudiced reports.

Your proud country got rid (in theory, at least) of racial discrimination a few of decades ago. However, racial discrimination and its offshoots, such as school-yard bullying, continue to be a blight that tarnishes your society. We unfortunately have a bit of it also here in Canada. So, when you state that my "post is 100% ad hominen" (sic), let me suggest that discrimination is fought by confronting the perpetrator.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I read this thread about two hours ago when I was sober and it seemed to be quite hostile and abrasive.

Now it's friggin' hilarious ! Don't stop ! Both of you dig up some more of those quotes for either side and let's agree to meet here in exactly 24 hours when you'll both post simultaneoulsy.

The rest of us will get all likerred up for the occasion and points will be awarded for whatever reasons we might pull out of thin air !


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Sailormann said:


> I read this thread about two hours ago when I was sober and it seemed to be quite hostile and abrasive.
> 
> Now it's friggin' hilarious ! Don't stop ! Both of you dig up some more of those quotes for either side and let's agree to meet here in exactly 24 hours when you'll both post simultaneoulsy.
> 
> The rest of us will get all likerred up for the occasion and points will be awarded for whatever reasons we might pull out of thin air !


I am on my third Guinness, just need a snack or something. BTW Sailormann, I fell in love with my CS AGAIN today. I think that makes it about six times in the last two months.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

*Boats ..or..persons?*



Sequitur said:


> ...Fool,
> 
> ......Your proud country got rid (in theory, at least) of racial discrimination a few of decades ago. However, racial discrimination and its offshoots, such as school-yard bullying, continue to be a blight that tarnishes your society. We unfortunately have a bit of it also here in Canada. So, when you state that my "post is 100% ad hominen" (sic), let me suggest that discrimination is fought by confronting the perparator....


I don't care what your rationalization for your behavior is, but you do nothing to deal with the lousy image Hunters have in the sailing world by attacking the messenger. Bang away at me all you want, the brand is what it is...and I'll continue to say so...if some people take a criticism of their boat builder as being personal, they have a problem.

On a personal note...when I first stepped on that Hunter 30 in the late '70s...it was sinking...had a foot plus water over the sole...eventually traced the problem to a lose setscrew on the bilge pump float...how does a half inch screw let water into the bilge of a full keel boat..still a mistery to me today.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> I am on my third Guinness, just need a snack or something. BTW Sailormann, I fell in love with my CS AGAIN today. I think that makes it about six times in the last two months.


There is no purer or more deserving love than that of a man for his CS. Would that there were lovers out there that could remain as beautiful, as faithful and as strong as the humblest of the CS craft...

('scuse me - must be the Vodka    )


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Sailormann said:


> There is no purer or more deserving love than that of a man for his CS. Would that there were lovers out there that could remain as beautiful, as faithful and as strong as the humblest of the CS craft...
> 
> ('scuse me - must be the Vodka    )


Since you bring it up, youse CS owners are all a bunch of hopeless romatics who think their boats have human characteristics, often female...sick, what would Freund say..not to mention what the wife has to say..again and again...

Sitting around drinking vodka is really sad, too expensive...a six pack of Rolling Rock works for me...plus as you know, my boat, she is prettier than yours, not to mention my mast is bigger too....


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Hah! Size doesn't matter. Performance matters! Mines faster. You sir, have a thick skull, just like your hull. And everything breaks on your boat, just ask Hoffa.


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## mccary (Feb 24, 2002)

Wow, as a Catalina owner this place seems like the most unfriendly sailing thread in cyberspace! Sure glad I didn't ask for an opinion with you guys... BTW, the original; post asked to compare 30' boats... and you guys can't even read.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Since you bring it up, youse CS owners are all a bunch of hopeless romatics who think their boats have human characteristics, often female...sick, what would Freund say..not to mention what the wife has to say..again and again...


Not quite human but if you put a little foam padding around the deck fill and turn on the diesel it's pretty romantic ...



> Sitting around drinking vodka is really sad, too expensive...a six pack of Rolling Rock works for me...plus as you know, my boat, she is prettier than yours, not to mention my mast is bigger too....


You have to say that - you are stuck with her... ( although I am sure she is a very attractive thing - if somewhat long in the nose. As far as the mast goes... I'm sporting 45' - I think you're carrying the same stick, but have more to move with it. My boat has not "let herself go" hence is not suffering from a weight issue  )


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Wow, as a Catalina owner this place seems like the most unfriendly sailing thread in cyberspace! Sure glad I didn't ask for an opinion with you guys... BTW, the original; post asked to compare 30' boats... and you guys can't even read.


The original post was answered a couple of times somewhere along the way. You have to 'scuse the boys though - they get cranky 'round about haul-out season. Start typing all kinds of strange things. It's all in good humour ...


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Sailormann said:


> Not quite human but if you put a little foam padding around the deck fill and turn on the diesel it's pretty romantic ...
> 
> You have to say that - you are stuck with her... ( although I am sure she is a very attractive thing - if somewhat long in the nose. As far as the mast goes... I'm sporting 45' - I think you're carrying the same stick, but have more to move with it. My boat has not "let herself go" hence is not suffering from a weight issue  )


Oh that was gooood. I wish I'd thought of that one, long in the nose, weight issue, Hehe! We need a CS forum, so misunderstood.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think it is an idea that should be floated by the Admins. I am willing to bet that most of the folks from CSOA would be just as happy to come here...


CAM !!!

WE NEED OUR OWN THREAD !!!!!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Sailormann said:


> Not quite human but if you put a little foam padding around the deck fill and turn on the diesel it's pretty romantic ...


By what occult art did you swap minds with Sailhog?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hog ? Geez is he porking his boat too ????


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Hehe! I can't wait until hog reads this in the AM. I'll let him explain.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

McCary...people are free here to say what they think about boats of any make...but they may expect strong responses in return. We draw the line at personal attacks and some of the posts on this thread are very close to that line on BOTH sides. I agree...this is a rather intemperate and un-civil thread. Thanks or your comments. 
*I am putting in bold type here that any further personal attacks will be dealt with harshly no matter who "started it"!*​


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Well I didn't start anything.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)




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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

To All-

* I don't think cam really cares who started it at this point... He's got his finger poised over the big red button... and he's not afraid to use it. *So, chill out...and if you have something to add about Catalinas and Hunters... go for it..

Personally, IMHO, all manufacturers have good boats and bad boats.... unfortunately, Hunter has gotten saddled with a reputation for making more bad boats than good, and this is particularly true of the boats from the last decade rather than this one. There were some bright highlights, like the Cherubini-designed 37 cutter, but they were far and few between. 

I've been on about a dozen Hunters in my lifetime...and would really want to sail on most of the ones I've been on. Often I look at a lot of the smaller details, and have to say, "If they've skimped here, what else have they skimped on." Not exactly the way to give me the confidence to take the boat out in conditions that I like sailing in. For example, almost every Hunter I've been on either had the seacocks replaced or had gate-valve seacocks if they were original equipment. The price difference between a ball-valve or tapered cone seacock and a gate valve one is neglible... so why would the manufacturer choose gate valves?? Is it because they don't know any better, or is it because they just don't give a damn, or is it because they don't really care about what happens further down the road, because it isn't important to them? In any case, the reason isn't good enough IMHO.

As to the Hunter owners on this forum... if you love your boat...that's all and good... but don't expect me to champion a brand and make that I've had first hand dealings with and am basing my opinions about from those first hand dealings. Granted, my experiences are with older Hunters, and I've not been on one that was made this century...at least not where it counts-in the water.

My comments about the problems I've seen in Hunters is probably applicable to other brands... which also have good boats and bad ones... but I've sailed on j/boats, catalinas, albergs, cape dorys, and many others...but only on the Hunters have I had such a consistently poor impression of them.


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## gonesailin40 (Sep 6, 2007)

The second boat my father ever owned was a 1977 or 1978(not Sure) Hunter 33. It was the families boat for about twenty five years. My dad did not beleive in preventive anything. Haul outs in his opinion needed to be done every 4 to 5 years whether it needed it or not. Fuel filter should be changed when the old one was to clogged to allow fuel to pass through. 

My uncles, my brothers, and a couple of cousins all learned to sail on this boat. It was abused and neglected in ways most of you could not imagine.

It is not a boat I would care to be stuck in in a prolonged hard blow or really serious seas. However as a coastal cruiser she served our family well and if it were not for my self imposed need to someday just go where the wind takes me, I think I would consider owning a Hunter. 

The gentleman who purchased her, still lives on her today in the same slip she has been in since new and I would think he feels that it was the best 12K (US) he ever spent.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

sailingdog said:


> To All-
> 
> Granted, my experiences are with older Hunters, .


First impressions are indeed lasting but not necessarily correct. I think you'll find most old boats also have/had gate valves which is an indication of nothing other than the era and common practice among the production boat manufacturers. Proper bronze/stainless ball valves and seacocks are the norm today with Hunter et al although some still use marelon.

This forum is a gold mine full of knowledgeable and objective information and it's a disservice to the group to allow old and sometimes ill-informed prejudices to negate or, as a minimum, contradict all the good info posted here.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

k1vsk said:


> This forum is a gold mine full of knowledgeable and objective information and it's a disservice to the group to allow old and sometimes ill-informed prejudices to negate or, as a minimum, contradict all the good info posted here.


And this is by far one of the best sentences I have read here lately....

My comment not aimed at anyone is special.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

...and WHO decides what is old and ill-informed? Not me...I'm already old and ill-informed! 
Seriously...we are each our own "filter" and with free and open discourse, it is usually pretty easy to tell who has their act together and who is blowing smoke.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> ...and WHO decides what is old and ill-informed? Not me...I'm already old and ill-informed!
> Seriously...we are each our own "filter" and with free and open discourse, it is usually pretty easy to tell who has their act together and who is blowing smoke.


I blow smoke and have no filter in my discourse.....I can prove that by the amount of **** you've given me...

And you're just OLD AND ULGY.....


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

camaraderie said:


> ...and WHO decides what is old and ill-informed? Not me...I'm already old and ill-informed!
> Seriously...we are each our own "filter" and with free and open discourse, it is usually pretty easy to tell who has their act together and who is blowing smoke.


I didn't intend to imply you or anyone should act as a censor which I think none of us would want. My point being that it behoves each of us who chooses to impart advice or opinion to do so fairly and based on something other than what is admittedly "old" experience, particularly when such is not relevant to the OP's request.

About the only thing with which I disagree with you is that sometimes it is not so easy to differentiate who "has their act together". Consequently, advice that you may recognize is not the best may be taken as a truth by someone else who might perpetuate it.

This is getting too time-consuming...


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

My point, way back in the beginning of this thread, had to do with CD's thread about boat owners and how they take care of their boat. My direct experience with Hunters has been with the 90's(IIRC) version with the traveler on the binnacle, early 2000 models out of charter, and the Cherubini. The Cherubini seemed to be built well and withstood the test of time as well as any thirty year old boat. I could see that with some simple cosmetic work it would come out okay. It sailed fairly well, but tended to round up. I am not even going to comment on the model with the traveler on the binnacle. The charter boats were destroyed. I have seen ex-charter Catalinas and they did not look like these. I think the statements about who Hunter focuses their sales on is correct, new sailors and first time boat buyers. In effect, so do most of the big production brands, its and easier sell, plain and simple. With that being said there are lots of long time sailors that buy Hunters and keep buying them, and I imagine that these are the types that take very good care of their boats. Pride in ownership, and I commend people (like Sequitor) for doing that. I have seen some very nice new Hunters, but have yet to sail on one. The newest Catalina I sailed on was an 04' 36. A little sluggish for my taste, but was solid enough for me to say that I would take it down the Coast. 

Well, I lost my train of thought in my rant and rave, but for me its all about design in a sailboat. That comes first and foremost, build quality second. You can have a crappy design and build it really well, but it will still sail like dirt on the highway. Of course, you need the two of them working together to make a success story. 

There are things about both brands that I like, and things I dislike. There are some of each brand that I would own, and some that I would not touch.

As I said originally, being that SF bay is my home port, either boat will suffice for what he wants.

One last thing, I may be wrong, but I don't think any of us on here really have the experience or expertise to make a blanket statement about either brand.


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## ewalker (Nov 25, 2007)

Giulietta, I´m really newbie in sailing and boats, but I want to learn a lot and buy one in the next 5 or 6 years. I saw your Photobucket and I saw your beautiful boat (and family), but I didnt understand what model is it and how much it is worth.

by the way I´m brazilian!! 

thanks and sorry for posting here, but I´m newbie and I can´t send personal messages yet.

Hi to all.

eWalker


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

ewalker said:


> Giulietta, I´m really newbie in sailing and boats, but I want to learn a lot and buy one in the next 5 or 6 years. I saw your Photobucket and I saw your beautiful boat (and family), but I didnt understand what model is it and how much it is worth.
> 
> by the way I´m brazilian!!
> 
> ...


Giu may take some time to respond as he is on a classified mission impossible for the Secretary of Portagee Photoshoping, and his current location is unknown. Personally, I think he is infiltrating the Catalina factory for information on their latest boat designs.

You see, Giu wanted a Catalina and could not afford one; so he had a yard in Portugal custum build him a boat as close to a Catalina as they could, but lets be serious, its Portugal.

You can find info on his boat here: http://www.sailnet.com/blogs/?q=node/165

It does not have the same performance as the Catalina, and the build quality is, lets just say, on the other side of the spectrum, but it is the best the Portagee's yard could do.

Someday Giu will add a barbecue grill to his boat, maybe next year.

Giu shall join the discussion soon. 

Ewalker, welcome to sailnet.


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