# Staysail - Furler or hanks?



## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

my boat is currently setup with a self tacking staysail which hanks on. I originally thought this was an ideal setup; in heavy weather you can furl the genoa and hank on the staysail and I am set for +30 knots winds. In +40 knot winds either heave too or drop the staysail and set the storm jib.

Now I am starting to wonder if the staysail on the furler might be a better idea? Still works in +30kt winds and +40kts you start furling. Plus this keeps people off the foredeck in 30-40kt winds - which me thinks is a good idea.

Any thoughts / experience with using a staysail on a furler?

Boat is a heavy 45ft cutter / ketch.

Ilenart


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

The way you have it set-up now conforms to the conventional, conservative wisdom.

But I personally would put mine on a furler. I have confidence in the furlers, and sized properly I would not have undue concern about jamming, etc (let's not forget that halyards can jam too.) By properly sized, I mean I would plus size the unit, probably going witht he same one used on the headsail despite the smaller sail area (this offers some parts redundancy too).

I would probably get a separate storm jib that can sleeve over the furled staysail.

Our staysail is on a furler, but it is a free-flying staysail intended more for mid-range conditions, not heavy air.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

On my olde heavy cutter, the staysail is rarely used, and only then used to weather.
I ended up taking it down in the end. 
I think that a roller furl would be an expensive choice, given the limited use, for me, at least.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

I agree with everything that John said. I have experience with the Island Packet Self tacking stay sails which are on furlers. I think anything you can do to make reefing easier the better, because it will be used earlier and more often.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I think a reefable staysail is the best option because it is one less thing to fail. A reefed staysail and a trysail is good to 60 knots, which even passagemakers might see once in their travels, assuming they sail to the predicted conditions and times of year. Furlers can either fail or become uncontrollable, leading to a shredded sail. They are a great convenience compared to hanks, but the cost is more UV exposure, mechanical complexity/further points of failure, a reduction in pointing ability and when reduced, an often sub-optimal sail shape. My instinct in a real blow would be to strip the forestay entirely and to stick with just the staysail, anyway.

Therefore, I would opt for what I already have: a furling yankee and a hanked-on staysail. Part of my argument is based on having the staysail stay quite far forward in the anchor well, an inherently more protected area in which to handle sail than a bare foredeck.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

I'd say leave things the way you have it. Wanting the ability to reef a staysail seems to me looking for a risky solution to what have that works - your existing storm jib. In the same way you should not reef a 150% to half its size and expect it to hold up like a blade jib, I don't think you want to use a reefed staysail where you need a storm jib, a staysail will not have the construction or design to serve well, if at all in that use.

The only problem you'd slove, by buying another furler system, taping the luff of the staysail and buying a new gale sail, to having too much boat money looking to be spent.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

My staysail is on a furler and it is easy to handle and reef and way safer than going on deck when the conditions demand using it. I would always have one done this way if budget permits.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

IMHO, it depends on whether your boat is true cutter or a cutter-rigged sloop with a temporary/removable inner forestay. If it is a cutter with a permanent inner forestay, get the furler, otherwise get the hanked-on sail. 

Since your boat is a cutter-ketch, get the furler.  I'd highly recommend upgrading the furling line to something that can take storm level forces.


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## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

Thanks for all the replies. My feeling is a furler is the way to go, however the current budget definitely does not extend to a new furler. I'll add it to the list (the never ending list  ).

Valiente, thanks for the idea of reefing the staysail. My current storm jib is out of action (someone must of put it away wet years ago and all the hanks are corroded) so setting this up to reef maybe a cost effective alternative.

Ilenart


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Ilenart said:


> Thanks for all the replies. My feeling is a furler is the way to go, however the current budget definitely does not extend to a new furler. I'll add it to the list (the never ending list  ).
> 
> Valiente, thanks for the idea of reefing the staysail. My current storm jib is out of action (someone must of put it away wet years ago and all the hanks are corroded) so setting this up to reef maybe a cost effective alternative.
> 
> Ilenart


Yeech...you you really think the storm jib is constructed just like the staysail, only half the size??? Furl half the staysail and you have a storm jib? I don't think a furled staysail will live up to the load expected for a storm jib.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

I tend to agree with John. 
With all due respect Val, I don't think that the problem of furlers failing or becoming uncontrollable is really an issue if one knows how to properly operate and maintain them.

It usually always comes down to cost. 
If I were preparing for a cruise and I had the money, I would definitely convert a hanked stay sail to a furler. There are times that it's just no fun on a pitching foredeck. It's always a good idea if you can eliminate the need to change a sail in hazardous conditions. 
If I were not planning a fairly extended voyage, I probably wouldn't spend the money unless my physical condition were an issue.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

My argument for hanked staysail is based on ease of removal of stay. If the inner is on a Highfiled lever you can easily get the damn thing out of the way making tacking a less excruciating exercise than it otherwise would be.

Ilenart - your girl may be bigger than anything I envision for myself but whil I once liked the double headsail sloop rig , today I am back to liking single headsail with a removeable inner stay for a storm jib. Obviously the size of you number one genoa is the limiting factor here.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Ilenart said:


> Valiente, thanks for the idea of reefing the staysail. My current storm jib is out of action (someone must of put it away wet years ago and all the hanks are corroded) so setting this up to reef maybe a cost effective alternative.
> 
> Ilenart


Any decent staysail will have a set of reef points, usually a single deep reef. An alternative, of course, is a Gale Sail, which performs the double function of a scrap of heavy sail forward, plus a further securing of the reefed foresail.

I used my storm jib once this season, and perhaps ironically because I didn't want to put a reef in the main! But the point, and I think it's one worth recalling, is that different sails and different "systems" have pluses and minuses, but that the truly prudent sailor keeps _options_, as many as he believes will serve the boat and the voyage and the preservation of his crew.

For me, a hank-on staysail is simplicity and durability. My new boat is simply too large for me to be futzing about with sail changes on the forestay...even at 20 knots, taking down the yankee would be problematic, but the staysail (or better yet, a _storm _staysail) can work in horrendous blows without going to pieces, and yet is compact enough to carry in the forepeak.


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## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

sailingfool said:


> Yeech...you you really think the storm jib is constructed just like the staysail, only half the size??? Furl half the staysail and you have a storm jib? I don't think a furled staysail will live up to the load expected for a storm jib.


I have a copy of _The 1994 Pacific Storm Survey_ which had average wind speeds of 50-80kts for approx 6 hours. One of the yachts hove too using "a hankerchief of jib rolled out (0.5sqm) and another yacht used "a storm jib sized furled headsail'. Neither of these yachts reported problems with their furlers. Like a few posters have said, I think a properly set up / beefy furler should work. Besides, my boat can heave too under a reefed mizzen only, so in extreme conditions I would'nt have any sails forward.



Knothead said:


> If I were preparing for a cruise and I had the money, I would definitely convert a hanked stay sail to a furler. There are times that it's just no fun on a pitching foredeck. It's always a good idea if you can eliminate the need to change a sail in hazardous conditions.
> If I were not planning a fairly extended voyage, I probably wouldn't spend the money unless my physical condition were an issue.


You must of read my mind. Short term plans are for coastal cruising, so I'll probably stick to the current setup. Long term plans are for longer cruises, maybe with current boat. If so the furled staysail looks like part of the kit.

TDW, my boat has a permanetly rigged inner forestay and the No 1 genoa is around 605sqft. Anything above 20kts and we are furling the No 1.

Ilenart


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## OsmundL (Nov 11, 2008)

*Safe furlers?*

Some of you have great faith in furlers, so I'd like to pitch in with my miserable tale. My sloop has a removable inner stay, and someone suggested we fit a light roller system instead. "Light" meaning a sail with sewn-in synthetic stay, and a light roller with endless line. The bonus was supposed to be that one could detach the entire sail and stay and swing them out of the way, so avoiding the (very!) heavy job of tacking the genoa past a fixed inner stay. I had come to love and trust the furler on my genoa, and saw no risk.

Oh boy! After failing to furl the staysail on three separate occasions in heavy winds, I am not only fed up but also scared of using it. Problems? (1) the endless line slips around the sail and locks it, (2) the stay is never as stiff as we could get it with the wire stay, so the sail bulges out of shape, (3) the genoa really *is* tough to pull past with this stay up, so you risk fighting with the sail regardless of which you choose in a tricky situation. 
The system had actual technical failures as well, but enough said. My point is that an old-fashioned staysail on a wire stay is *way* more dependable, and in practice as fast or faster to handle. When in addition my sail failed in precisely the conditions it was intended for, leaving me struggling on the foredeck with a sail I had to drop to the deck with the halyard, I decided enough was enough.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A furler with a solid foil is a far different beast from one with a wire luff.

It sounds like what you were sold wasn't really the appropriate piece of gear for what you needed it for...* that's not the furler's fault...that's the fault of the person who made the recommendation. *



OsmundL said:


> Some of you have great faith in furlers, so I'd like to pitch in with my miserable tale. My sloop has a removable inner stay, and someone suggested we fit a light roller system instead. "Light" meaning a sail with sewn-in synthetic stay, and a light roller with endless line. The bonus was supposed to be that one could detach the entire sail and stay and swing them out of the way, so avoiding the (very!) heavy job of tacking the genoa past a fixed inner stay. I had come to love and trust the furler on my genoa, and saw no risk.
> 
> Oh boy! After failing to furl the staysail on three separate occasions in heavy winds, I am not only fed up but also scared of using it. Problems? (1) the endless line slips around the sail and locks it, (2) the stay is never as stiff as we could get it with the wire stay, so the sail bulges out of shape, (3) the genoa really *is* tough to pull past with this stay up, so you risk fighting with the sail regardless of which you choose in a tricky situation.
> The system had actual technical failures as well, but enough said. My point is that an old-fashioned staysail on a wire stay is *way* more dependable, and in practice as fast or faster to handle. When in addition my sail failed in precisely the conditions it was intended for, leaving me struggling on the foredeck with a sail I had to drop to the deck with the halyard, I decided enough was enough.


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## OsmundL (Nov 11, 2008)

Yes I got that, Sailingdog. Still, I am trying to point to some trade-offs. As I wrote, the preferred staysail ought to be one easily detached, so as not to be in the way the other 90% of the time when you sail with the genoa. Yet, the solution with sail-and-stay-in one didn't work for me, because even an electric winch could not get the stay tension needed. 
I would personally never go with a fixed wire innerstay, for the reason mentioned. Once you make that decision, you also miss out on the more robust reefing furlers. 
Add to this the thought that with both a genoa furler and a staysail furler you have even more windage from furled-up sails, and I am no longer so certain of the advantages.
After all, we are speaking of staysails. Is it really such a great chore to handle a sail that size in the old-fashioned way, no mechanicals? As we are speaking of severe conditions and potential crises here, I would contend that nothing is quicker and simpler than dropping a trad sail to deck, if push comes to shove.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Most of the wire luff furlers I've seen are designed for LIGHT AIR sails... What you really need is a inner forestay on a highfield lever, so that it can be easily removed when not necessary. Use it with a traditional hanked on sail, and you'd be far better off than what was recommended to you.


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