# Buying a Bluewater Family Cruiser



## chall03

About three years ago almost to the day I sold my last boat.

Since then life has been a blur of work, parenting, and collapsing on the couch with a glass of cheap wine and scouring yachtworld every night.

My wife has always wanted to sail the Med. I have promised her repeatedly that one day we would get there. Of course to get to Europe by boat from Australia is somewhat of an ordeal. Besides given the boat market seemed far more buoyant in Europe it would also be a little bit akin to taking tea to China perhaps?

So over wine and yachtworld we have decided to buy a boat in the Med and bring it back to OZ.

We have a boat selection mantra. Moderate everything. We want a mid sized, mid priced, moderate displacement, moderate and modern as money can buy yacht. 

- A 10 – 15 year old boat.
- Preferably Centre Cockpit
- Definitely GRP
- About 41-50 foot
- Reasonable performance.
- Ready to cruise, no refits thanks.
- Budget under 150k US. 

Have looked at and considered.....

Moody 425
Moody 44
Moody 42
Westerly Oceanlord 41
Westerly Ocean 43
Hallberg Rassy 42F
Hallberg Rassy 45/46
Amel Super Maramu

So the British boats feature prominently in this list because they seem to have the design/layout we seek, respectable performance and build quality at a price that sits within our budget when buying in Europe. 

Give us your opinions denizens of Sailnet!


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## ianjoub

Look at Garcia


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## Skipper Jer

There is a Moody group in England, the motherland for you all down under.  They are willing to answer questions about the different models. I contacted them prior to viewing a Moody 41. You might want to do the same. https://moodyowners.org/

We didn't buy the Moody. Sometimes boats have negative value when the owners neglect them for too long. I really like the layout of the 41, center cockpit, three cabins, centerboard. 
Good luck.


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## WharfRat

It's a shame Paolo isn't here any more. He knows the European market really well. He does have the philosophy, though, that only a fast boat is "interesting." For example he is no fan of the Bavaria 45, even if that could potentially meet your criteria. 

That said, he can probably point you to some makes / models, and even brokers, that you might not otherwise have considered.

You might be able to make contact with him through his blog. Just google for "interesting sailboats."


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## smackdaddy

Good luck with your search Chall. Your Med-purchase approach will likely be our next move in a few years. So it will be good to see how the process goes.


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## capta

I would suggest you bareboat a few times in the Med before you invest a great deal of money and time into sailing there from OZ. It isn't one of the more pleasant sailing areas, though the places you can visit are pretty amazing.


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## chall03

ianjoub said:


> Look at Garcia


Like them a lot.

Was about to post that they are very much out of our price range, but I have just found a couple of older examples that are reasonably priced!


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## chall03

capta said:


> I would suggest you bareboat a few times in the Med before you invest a great deal of money and time into sailing there from OZ. It isn't one of the more pleasant sailing areas, though the places you can visit are pretty amazing.


So we won't be _sailing _there from OZ.

We are going to START in the Med and sail to OZ.

Have barefooted a couple of times (Both times in Italy).

My wife loves the area (The culture and food more than the sailing). I see us doing a season and crossing the Atlantic. The Schengen VISA situation alone would encourage us to do this.


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## chall03

WharfRat said:


> It's a shame Paolo isn't here any more. He knows the European market really well. He does have the philosophy, though, that only a fast boat is "interesting." For example he is no fan of the Bavaria 45, even if that could potentially meet your criteria.
> 
> That said, he can probably point you to some makes / models, and even brokers, that you might not otherwise have considered.
> 
> You might be able to make contact with him through his blog. Just google for "interesting sailboats."


I think he would perhaps have us in a POGO planing at 25 knots.....

I have spoken with him briefly about it in the past. I will reach out.


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## WharfRat

Yeah anything under 12 knots is downright pokey in his mind, but still, he knows a lot about the market and the builders around Europe.


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## chall03

So after a bit of research i'm adding Wauquiez centurion 45 to the list, but don't know a huge amount about these boats, beyond what google can tell me. 

Does anyone have any experience or thoughts?

(And yes I realise I am asking about European boats on a predominantly North American forum!)


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## chall03

The boat we are specifically considering.

1991 Wauquiez Centurion Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - au.yachtworld.com


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## Faster

Chall

Around here the relatively few Wauquiez' certainly hold their value and are very well regarded. They were featured in Ferenc Mate's 'Worlds best sailboats' (a classic and beautiful coffee table book from the 80s).

I would guess that the transom platform is a post-production modification, I don't recall them being built that way so some investigation into that would be warranted...(no narrative on the listing)

It is an IOR based design so will have those habits to some degree, but they are manageable with sail and AWA selection based on conditions.

She might be a bit dark below, plenty of wood and smallish ports, and that is one tall companionway that may be an issue for kids and/or less agile crew. Also exiting the companionway at sea, being so 'up on deck' will make those grab rails pretty crucial. That layout also seems to preclude a more protective dodger than the one shown - anything wide enough to protect the cockpit would also have to be very long and make access to the deck gear outside the companionway possibly awkward.

Just a few observations, based on a quick scan. Probably a pretty nice boat to sail, esp in warmer climes. For us in the PNW not being able to 'get out of the wind and rain' behind a proper dodger would be an issue.


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## BlackBart

I agree with the previous posts about specifying budget,size and type of boat etc first. 

One thing I would recommend related to sailing with children, regardless of make and model is that in many cases you will sail “singlehanded”. 

I do a lot of sail racing on race boats and on the boat I use for cruising I have done a lot of short hand / single hand optimization. A lot of times when you are sailing with small children one person is sailing while the other is basically entertaining the kids. 

Doesn’t mean that I do 100% sailing and my wife is doing 100% entertaining the kids. We are basically taking turns. But I have invested a lot into making things easy to sail shorthanded. Anything from using good ball or roller bearing blocks and running rigging to single line reefs as well as a good autopilot with gyro. 

I would say that most boats that can sail well shorthanded works well for a family. Unfortunately that is not the case with many “cruisers” out of the factory. 

By the way, don’t make the traditional mistake with the man at the helm yelling at his wife to do all the heavy lifting such as dropping anchor, hoisting sails, handling big genua sheets etc. 

Get your wife to handle the helm and do the heavy less prestigious work such as dropping the anchor etc yourself. You will thank me later if you do this. If you get her hooked on sailing all of you will enjoy it more.


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## chall03

BlackBart said:


> One thing I would recommend related to sailing with children, regardless of make and model is that in many cases you will sail "singlehanded".
> 
> I do a lot of sail racing on race boats and on the boat I use for cruising I have done a lot of short hand / single hand optimization. A lot of times when you are sailing with small children one person is sailing while the other is basically entertaining the kids.
> 
> Doesn't mean that I do 100% sailing and my wife is doing 100% entertaining the kids. We are basically taking turns. But I have invested a lot into making things easy to sail shorthanded. Anything from using good ball or roller bearing blocks and running rigging to single line reefs as well as a good autopilot with gyro.
> 
> I would say that most boats that can sail well shorthanded works well for a family. Unfortunately that is not the case with many "cruisers" out of the factory.
> 
> By the way, don't make the traditional mistake with the man at the helm yelling at his wife to do all the heavy lifting such as dropping anchor, hoisting sails, handling big genua sheets etc.
> 
> Get your wife to handle the helm and do the heavy less prestigious work such as dropping the anchor etc yourself. You will thank me later if you do this. If you get her hooked on sailing all of you will enjoy it more.


I really appreciate the thoughts.

FWIW we have done several thousand miles on our previous boat with kids onboard and we absolutely get the importance of a shorthanded friendly boat.

In terms of my wife rest assured she is well and truly hooked on sailing and is very capable. She has been bowchick for more than a couple of ocean races on boats that go a lot faster than I would care to cruise.

If you have a traditional cliche of a sailing couple in your head, well umm yeah lets just say thats not quite us. We are both passionate but quite different sailors.

It sounds like you also have a good system going where roles are well shared between the two and you? I couldn't agree more that this flexibility is key.

In terms of boats we are finding the process quite frustrating.

CLICK HERE for a video on my REAL thoughts

We are patiently continuing the search.


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## WharfRat

Sorry you're having such a rough go at it. They say good things come to those who wait, but you've clearly had to endure a lot of waiting so far.

Surely the right vessel is out there at the right price. Hope to see you take possession soon!


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## smackdaddy

Hang in there Chall. It will come.


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## chall03

Thanks all. Have an offer in on a boat at the moment so fingers crossed!


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## BlackBart

chall03 said:


> Thanks all. Have an offer in on a boat at the moment so fingers crossed!


Good luck and keep us posted


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## chall03

Hey All,

Just thought I would update this thread with the news that we have bought a Moody 425.

In terms of of boat buying in the med it has been an interesting process. Our experience has been that there are lots of boats sitting disused in boatyards sometimes not sailed for a couple of years and owners who had an inflated idea of what they were worth.

"Oh the engine hasn't been started in 3 years&#8230;..no they don't know the engine hours and the standing rigging is 20 years old but hey I promise it's a great boat"

So it was in Malta that we found a Moody 425 that spoke to us. It is a design I have well researched and like and it was also just the right boat at the right price.

It was in the water, being sailed year round by a Maltese sailor and while approaching 30 years of age and a little tired around the edges it had a great inventory of cruising gear, is in good condition.

So it begins! So many lists. A bit of work to be done. But we are so ready to start this next adventure!


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## Minnewaska

Nice choice and certainly checks the boxes you laid out. When does the Med cruise begin? Best of luck with her.


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## SanderO

Congratulations... sounds like a great boat and deal. Not to worry about age of a well taken care, loved and sailed boat of that vintage. Shiva is 1985 edition and has been cared for diligently and sailed 10s of thousands of miles with thousands of hrs on the MD17D. She had had lots of equipment replaced/renewed over the years... such as several dodgers, suits of sails, ports and hatches, upholstery. When she's waxed she almost looks new. She due for a new rub rail this year.

You did the right thing. You're going to love and enjoy everything about that boat! Gorgeous!


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## chall03

Thanks guys!   



Minnewaska said:


> When does the Med cruise begin? Best of luck with her.


Heading over to Malta in June. Will get the standing rigging replaced and tidy her up and bit and then the plan will be Italy, Greece & Turkey most probably this season before heading across the Atlantic next year.


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## chall03

A bit of an update on buying our boat.


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## capta

Congratulations. I wish you all the best.
So, the adventure begins. Maybe we'll see you down this way one day.


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## chef2sail

Congrats Chal,

You waited and we're rewarded. She's a looker. I've always had a fondness for Moodys.
Sail well.


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## chall03

capta said:


> Congratulations. I wish you all the best.
> So, the adventure begins. Maybe we'll see you down this way one day.


That's the plan......

I don't think we will hang around the Med for more than a season or so. The Schengen visa situation discourages us from doing that, as does our budget and my desire to find cheap rum!


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## Minnewaska

chall03 said:


> .....The Schengen visa situation discourages us from doing that.....


I'm curious how you'll manage that. As I understand it, you'll get 6 months. What happens to the boat (ie VAT, import, etc), if it's left there for a year or two? Perhaps the latter is advantaged by buying it there in the first place, but where will it be flagged?

My wife is a dual citizen and I just recently realized that I have a foreign birth rite to apply for EU citizenship as well, as my Grandmother was born there. Not sure it will do me any good. We might be entitled to a perpetual stay, but I wouldn't want to import our boat.


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## chall03

My understanding is that the boat gets 18 months as it will be Australian flagged. 

You can then leave the EU to 'reset' the clock on the boat and this is common practice. 

I am a dual Biritsh/Australian national and so I am (currently.....pending Brexit) fine to stay in the EU indefinitely, my wife and children as Australian citizens get 90 days in any 6 month period on the Schengen visa. Both Croatia and Turkey are popular 'non Schengen' countries to wait out your time.

In reality we will leave the boat, probably in Greece and return home over Christmas to catch up with family and top up the cruising kitty before going back again so the combination of the above gets us easily through two seasons.


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## Minnewaska

Thanks for the thoughts. Dual citizenship seems to help, but I do wonder what VAT rules apply, if you are an EU citizen. IOW, if you are in the EU, as a citizen, can you avoid their VAT, just by flagging the vessel outside the EU, or does it physically need to be outside the EU. The whole thing gives me a headache.


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## capta

Minnewaska said:


> As I understand it, you'll get 6 months.


Schengen is 90 DAYS IN AND 90 DAYS OUT for immigration! It has nothing at all to do with the boat!


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## chall03

Minnewaska said:


> Thanks for the thoughts. Dual citizenship seems to help, but I do wonder what VAT rules apply, if you are an EU citizen. IOW, if you are in the EU, as a citizen, can you avoid their VAT, just by flagging the vessel outside the EU, or does it physically need to be outside the EU. The whole thing gives me a headache.


I know what you mean. It depends on your status taxation wise maybe?. So essentially whether you are 'resident'.

As our plans don't include staying in the Med long term I haven't gone into it in detail but despite what the 'rules' say I know plenty of Brit/EU sailors in the Med on non VAT paid boats who seems to be doing okay and do not appear particularly troubled by the whole affair.


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