# Thoughts on Newbie 1st boat purchase



## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

First of all, I'm new here, long time reader, first time poster.

Quick history - I had originally planned to do a 'round the world motorcycle tour after about 20-30,000 miles in the Western US over the last 2 years. I'd had a '10 year plan' to 'get back into' sailing and eventually circumnavigate. I decided against the moto-tour as going from one source of gasoline to the next started to really depress me. Decided to buck up and do what I had always really wanted and have just bought a boat. I'll work for about 2 years, refit, and then head out with the loose goal of going 'round with the full expectation of taking a few work breaks to replenish the kitty. First, I know that I'll still need diesel, but a motorcycle and sailboat are apples to oranges.

Okay, that's out of the way.

I've done many hundreds of hours on the internet, not including many books, articles, and trips to see boats. I asked many of the questions that many seem to ask here, mainly, what is the best boat to ___________? I just wanted to share some thoughts so that those that may have the same idea as me might benefit from my experience.

I had a very small budget - 20k including tax & insurance. I considered this much less a restriction than an advantage. My opinion is that people tend to spend as much as they have and it's easy to make the 'wrong' choice first time out. 
I planned on picking the boat I thought would be right for me with the realistic possibility that it may end up not being the right one, so I chose a boat I thought I wouldn't have too much problem selling if it came to that. With that said the boat also had to be in good enough shape to sail right away so that I could sail for about a year before I started upgrading in earnest for ocean passage. That way if it wasn't right and I wanted to sell than I wouldn't have put in too much $$ only to lose it when reselling.

What I learned:

1. Opinions are like *... everyone's got 'um. I did what I thought was reasonable research, found 3 reasonable models and then waited until I thought I found a good deal that met my requirements. Look - you never know with opinions, people can make nearly any boat seem like the worst or best of something with a little good prose. The most important thing is to know and understand the strengths & weaknesses of any particular boat and plan(& sail) accordingly. For example do the research to understand a full keel's pros and cons compared to a modified fin keel's. Remember if you ask others you are just getting opinions and while other's opinions are valuable, the most important opinion is your own.

2. Don't blow all your budget. My budget was artificially low. To be honest I did spend most of what I have now, but in six months I could have spent twice as much due to my personal financial circumstances. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to keep it small and simple figuring that it would be 'easier' to go bigger or more expensive later when my knowledge was better, and I wouldn't have as much tied up in the boat, which can take a long time to sell and still take quite a hit on.

3. Redefine size needed. My first thought was that I'd want a 36'. After pricing boats and reading article after article, post after post, saying, "bigger is not necessarily better," I started to believe. After carefully scrutinizing the adage, "each ten feet increases cost threefold," I came up with the opinion that that is correct. Maybe it's because I've been living out of 58 square liters of panniers on my motorcycle, but I know I really don't need that much, too much stuff can be worse than not enough

4. Prioritize. I decided that a strong structure was very important to me, pure comfort second, and length regardless a very distant third. I decided that I'd rather sail something easy to single-hand, VERY easy, and smaller so I'd have more time out there. This is how I see it, every day out there on a smaller boat beats the hell out of the same day working to refit a larger boat, or having to head in to make more money for the larger boat. Safety was always important to me and I always thought of it in terms of handling rather than equipment. What I mean is that I'd rather have something smaller that I could handle properly than to simply rely on the brute size to carry me through any rough weather. Keep in mind that knowing I'm in a 30' might cause me to make a different decision regarding route or window than if I were sailing 36'.

5. Don't believe the hype. People have been crossing oceans for a very long time, in all sizes and types of vessels. One doesn't NEED 36' or self-tailing winches, or roller-furling rigs, or whatever. Most 'things' are convenience. I qualify that by also writing that I fear many technological advances are learned by newbies so that without them sailing seems impossible. The majority of my sailing experience was when I was a kid and teen, rolling furlers, self-tailing winches, GPS, etc. were either not yet around or extravagant luxuries. If one learns to sail competently without many of these things not only does one become a better sailor, the convenience and safety of those items increase because one may actually understand the older, 'more difficult' processes. Know and respect your and your boat's limitations.  Don't worry, you can always haggle on price if the equipment is 'antiquated' and learn on that and then upgrade.

6. Beware the broker/seller, but have no fear. Brokers and sellers usually have one thing on their mind - money. Realize this and be truthful and honest and expect the same from them. When and if you suspect they are not being honest or forthright, say so. I fall into the trap of wanting to sound like I know what I'm talking about as much as the next guy. What can I say I can be insecure at times. However, I've found that generally the more honest I am and the less I try to seem like I'm knowledgeable, the more I find out. When the seller or broker start to rattle off about what a beautiful new anchor chain stretcher has just been installed, and you don't know what they are talking about, take a deep breath, and just ask out loud, "what is that, how does it work, show it to me?" Many times I've done this and gotten the response that they don't actually know that much about it and that they'll find out a bit more and let me know. Usually this has resulted in both parties relaxing a bit and tends to flush out more honesty than anything else. I've found that being honest with my knowledge, but enthusiastic about learning without fear of embarrassment generally gets the broker/seller talking about what they DO know - let 'em talk and keep asking 'dumb' questions, you'll find what they really know and don't more quickly.

7. Surveys are exciting! If I could go back I would find someone who was having a survey done and somehow tag along, and I might even have a survey done of a model boat that I thought would be a possibility before I was really ready to buy. I learned more on the one survey I had done than any other single thing. This is the 'nuts & bolts' of what is and is not in good condition and WHY. One can read and talk forever on the design and physics of one boat as opposed to another, on individuals experiences with this or that, but getting dirty and rooting around the bilge trying to figure out how you might reroute the raw water intake will give you a much better practical understanding of the TRUE NATURE AND TIME it takes to do some of these 'minor' things. I'm a DIYer, I'll look at an engine and think, ahhh shucks, doin' a valve job won't be too hard, it's just getting in there and replacing a few parts. After fourteen trips to the auto parts store, grease head to toe, finally to be put on hold while the 'special' tool is ordered and flown in from some magical far away country I always think back and say to myself, well, it'll be easy NEXT TIME. Just keep that in mind when the broker/seller tells you of a problem and you both think how easy of a job it'll be, remember - you're the one that'll have to do it. I also see the survey as the point at which a possibility either becomes a reality or insanity. After the survey is when you really get an idea of the value of the boat TO YOU, and what work it will really need, rather than the work you will hope it will not need.

8. Title companies are paid way too well. The title company my broker used wanted $770 bucks to switch over registration, transfer Coast Guard(CG) documentation and to disburse the funds. Forget it folks. If you plan to go out of country and can't do your own transfer of CG documentation, you're in deep trouble. I called the CG and found out that for $92 and $8 a page bill of sale I could easily transfer my own documentation. The title company wanted $350 for filling out 2 one page forms. At this point another $350 may seem like small potatoes, especially on a $100,000 boat, but don't be afraid to stand up to what's right. The title company knows that you're ALMOST there and you're more likely to accept an outrageous charge for a very simple procedure. I protested and was able to get this for cost. Maybe you won't care but I hate getting jerked around, and I figure if I can't stand my ground on something this transparent and simple I'd be in real trouble in a third world country with an angry bureaucrat speaking a different language. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't nasty, but I spoke up and told them that I called the CG and they quoted me X amount for form Y. The title person looked at me and said, "well, you obviously did your homework, we'll just charge cost for that."

9. Depending where you are you may want to shop for moorage first and not after you buy your first boat. Here in the Pacific NW moorage is tight. I'm an industrious guy for the most part and am still just getting 6 month temporary moorage where I want it. Don't wait too late to line it up.

10. Keep the dream alive. After so many late nights bleary-eyed in front of the computer, the millions of phone calls, the dozens of trips to see boats, the opinions and reviews swimming in your head, and finally the endless list of things that will need to be done to the boat, don't lose the excitement that got you there. At first I was exhausted, but then after reading a few blogs on the refitting adventures of some of my favorite circumnavigators it all came back to me. Yeah, cruising is just working on the boat in an exotic location. But I knew that going in. I was now excited to get to work and get some of the major stuff done. I haven't even started yet but I've got my list, I'm completely ignoring the amount of money I know I'll need, dreading the wait, but imagining that first anchor in that perfect bay after some hellish passage and it makes me smile and want to leave tomorrow.

I hope this may help anyone thinking of doing the same, especially on a very small budget. I plan to have a blog of the experience from start to finish, including the refit. I'll post the address when I get it going. Any and all comments are welcome.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

OK, I'll bite - what did you get for under $20K that you will take around the world? Your numbered list has a lot of sound reasoning (I think) but that inital bit about the $20K boat for circumnavigation is kinda out there. Don't get me wrong; I have a $1200 boat and have been in contact with someone who crossed the Gulf stream to the Bahamas in one of these (not that I would, but with the right skipper it can be done) - I love bargain boats. But circumnavigation? Spill another bean, please...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Looking forward to seeing your blog. Mind you, a 30' and a 36' boat are both small when it comes to the ocean. However, until about 10 years ago, boats larger than 35' were fairly uncommon as cruising boats for most people.


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

Yankee 30 MKII, keep in mind that I plan to put another 10-15k into it on the refit.
I don't know why it would seem unreasonable that one could do this for much less than many people.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Laser. The first version......


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

I can't yet submit links but a couple did the S. Pacific on theirs from the US east coast to Australia.
blog.mailasail.com/avalon


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

Thanks sailingdog, I got an opinion - yes those dreaded opinions - about the boat from a family friend who runs a large composite company, he knows his resin, and he said he took his family of four cruising in the Caribbean in the late sixties on a 30', which was considered quite comfortable in those days(his words.) I think many are subject to the current notion of bigger is better, I suppose there is something to be said for that, but so is getting out there now, rather than waiting until I have something bigger. Regardless I'll find out and can't wait to get out there. The work is just starting for me but I'm moving forward with my plan and it's to go as soon as possible.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

WanderingFool said:


> I can't yet submit links but a couple did the S. Pacific on theirs from the US east coast to Australia.
> blog.mailasail.com/avalon


You are far and away the most intelligent and savvy boat buyer and new owner I've ever had the pleasure to read about. Just how the hell the rest of us got this far in life is unfathomable. You're 10 million phone calls, years of research, penny-pinching, middle man eliminating and negotiations have obviously paid off handsomely for you, and I stand before you in utter and complete awe. I think you should write a book, and perhaps shoot a documentary so that others less compentent would-be-boaters can follow in your exact foot steps. The Pardey's should be ashamed of themselves..........

Now, go untie your boat and find some ****ty weather--And fret not, you can read _Heavy Weather Sailing _along the way........


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

WF-

I'm not of the bigger is better school of thought... as you can tell from my great minds thread.


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

RickLaPaz
I sure don't understand your sarcasm. I have not purported to be anything other than what I am - a newbie 1st boat buyer as per my title. I'm simply doing this thing and trying to share with others for their benefit. arbarnhart had simply asked how one could buy a boat for 20k that was worthy of passage and I responded that the same boat had made a S. pacific crossing. You seem to be an angry person, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though and figure your just frustrated.


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

sailingdog - I remember that post and it's one I was referring to in my original post. For better or worse I'm gonna give the 30' a chance.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

WanderingFool said:


> RickLaPaz
> I sure don't understand your sarcasm. I have not purported to be anything other than what I am - a newbie 1st boat buyer as per my title. I'm simply doing this thing and trying to share with others for their benefit. arbarnhart had simply asked how one could buy a boat for 20k that was worthy of passage and I responded that the same boat had made a S. pacific crossing. You seem to be an angry person, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though and figure your just frustrated.


There lies the key words, and the gist of my post.

Good luck in the 40's.......


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

RickLaPaz-
Your right, I'm calling it all off and will just forget it. Thanks - you're my huckleberry.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just remember, Donna Lange just circumnavigated in a Southern Cross 28, and she went round the tip of South America, not via the ditch... so it is not only possible to do so in a 30' boat.


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

sailingdog- True, I read her blog, too bad about Kensolo though. I wouldn't necessarily do a 'antipodes' circumnavigation, but I'd like to go round the ball one way or another.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Go for it WF, as you no doubt know, there's always somebody to tell ya what ya can't do.


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

Thanks CharlieCobra! If I listened to everyone that told me I couldn't do something, well, I wouldn't have accomplished anything. Of course in my original post I did mention that I was going to sail this one for about a year and then do the heavy refit if I felt it was right. I'm certainly not trying to foolishly rush in, I've got a lot to do, a lot of experience to gain before I go, but I gotta start somewhere.


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## maxcontax (Jan 30, 2002)

*what are you trying to do, really*

I may be late in on this, but are you trying to get something for nothing?? Are you aware of the fact that you may be gambling the lives of yourself and your crew on this? think it thru man, what are you trying to do with a cheap boat. what are youtrying to prove. I think there are boat out there that fit the challenge, what about you?


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

maxcontax-
I've gotten a very good survey, with my goals in mind. There is a lot to do to it before I think I would feel comfortable. And yes I'm quite aware that lives are at risk, gambling, I don't know about that. I think the boat is worthy, or will be, of course, as I stated it may not be - I have about a year to figure that out. As far as proving something, well I certainly don't need to prove anything to anyone here, and I suppose if I were honest there is the aspect of proving to myself that I can do it. I've been present at 9/11 and Katrina - not in the worst of it by any means, but was there in person for both and I suppose something inside of me changed and realized that fear had paralyzed me my whole life. Mother nature can kick your ass right there in your easy chair. Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly don't have a death wish - but with planning and patience I think it can be done. I wouldn't move forward if I thought it was utterly foolish, and if I only did things that other people approved of, well, my mother would've kept me from most of the things I've done all my life. 
I'm really surprised the reaction I'm getting from this. I suppose many think I may be crazy, maybe I am, again, I'm just really starting the process and have allowed for reconsideration at some point. Is it the price of the boat that has some so pessimistic? The size of the boat? Or is it that the notion of risking one's life at sea, which everyone does to some extent every time they go out(or for that matter drive on the highways.)? I'm simply going through the process and have allowed flexibility in all factors to help insure a positive outcome. I'm convinced it's possible in this boat, pray tell, why not?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

WanderingFool said:


> Thanks CharlieCobra! If I listened to everyone that told me I couldn't do something, well, I wouldn't have accomplished anything. *Of course in my original post I did mention that I was going to sail this one for about a year and then do the heavy refit if I felt it was right. I'm certainly not trying to foolishly rush in, I've got a lot to do, a lot of experience to gain before I go, but I gotta start somewhere.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Now we're getting somewhere. A little faith has been restored.
> 
> ...


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

RB-
Well you could've just read the post carefully before you jumped to conclusions, but I appreciate your response regardless.
Please tell me constructively why you think this boat would not be sufficient with a proper refitting?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'm still trying to decipher _what _you bought.

Your move.........


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

So it is one of these?



















Outfitted properly and skillfully skippered, I don't think it is an unreasonable choice at all. However, my knowledge is from books and the net, not the sea; a situation I hope to remedy. When I set out, I will float my ideas and probably get some encouragement and some comments that are less than encouraging. I will look into any issues raised and I would encourage you or anyone else to do the same.

BTW - this is supposed to be one of the encouraging ones in a cautiously optimistic sort of way.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

WF...welcome aboard. While I wish you well on your venture, I too think that before you tell others what you have done...who to listen to...who to discount...it might be well for you to actually have DONE something that we all can respect. It is no trick to BUY a boat *you *think is capable of crossing an ocean for 20K...after all Catalina 27's can be bought for $5k and some of them have crossed oceans. 
Actually getting your boat outfitted and sailing say from Seattle to SanFrancisco and surviving a gale on the way would give you some cred. 
In the meantime, your advice is from books and what others have told you that fits with how you think things should be. 
I'm neither angry or pooh poohing your chances and I do wish you well...but forgive me if I don't consider you qualified to advise others on how to do much just yet. 
I will be interested to hear your progress.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Rick-

You might want to learn to read... post #4 clearly says that he bought a Yankee 30 Mk II. 


RickLaPaz said:


> I'm still trying to decipher _what _you bought.
> 
> Your move.........





WanderingFool said:


> Yankee 30 MKII, keep in mind that I plan to put another 10-15k into it on the refit.
> I don't know why it would seem unreasonable that one could do this for much less than many people.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie said:


> WF...welcome aboard. While I wish you well on your venture, I too think that before you tell others what you have done...who to listen to...who to discount...it might be well for you to actually have DONE something that we all can respect. It is no trick to BUY a boat *you *think is capable of crossing an ocean for 20K...after all Catalina 27's can be bought for $5k and some of them have crossed oceans.
> Actually getting your boat outfitted and sailing say from Seattle to SanFrancisco and surviving a gale on the way would give you some cred.
> In the meantime, your advice is from books and what others have told you that fits with how you think things should be.
> I'm neither angry or pooh poohing your chances and I do wish you well...but forgive me if I don't consider you qualified to advise others on how to do much just yet.
> I will be interested to hear your progress.


Very well stated, Cam, and exactly what I was trying to convey, though in not quite such a Larry King kind of way...

What got me first was the statement of his distrust and poo-pooing of others opinions, but then arriving here doing the exact same. With no-(admitingly) credentials and experience. Which may have baffled some of the other listeners here. Personally, W/Fool's op-ed piece rings hollow without the requisite scars and broken bones of lessons learned---the hard way.

Anyways, Fool, I actually do wish you luck and would love to share a beer together some day in an un-named cove. But remember, Donna lange was VERY lucky and SLIGHTLY foolis. But Ken Barnes-(aka Cap't PopTart) was a complete and utter moron who should have just stayed home and kept on banging the Housewives of the OC and scrubbing algae.

Please do your homework so we don't have to see you dangling under an orange and white helo some day on Most Dangerous Videos.........


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

RB-4th post on 1st page - Yankee 30 MKII

arbanhart - yes it is if thats a MkII

camaraderie- I didn't make any suggestions specifically to any boat or practice, rather I stated that one should learn what they can about any and all specific boats, their pros and cons, and then decide for themselves. I didn't offer any advice on what one should DO with their boat, simply what I encountered to help anyone trying to do the same. Nearly all people and posts here are opinions, as I could tell you I did something I didn't and who would really know. I was offering my experience and thoughts on MY boat purchase. Perhaps not everyone has read my post thoroughly. Are you suggesting that I don't post anything other than my experiences, and if so that is what I did - MY experience on buying a boat, MY thoughts and OPINIONS. Please explain how I advised anyone on anything - the title of my post was what? Thoughts on newbie 1st boat purchase. That says it all right there. 

Seems to me that people are jumping on my intended use of boat rather than anything else. I've purported no great knowledge, only what I found in my experience. I don't need to prove anything to you or others, especially when I make clear from the start that this is the beginning of a process that I'm taking. It seems clear that the subject of circumnavigation is a touchy around here, and all this time wasted on the simple background of my post rather than any thoughts on my experience buying a boat. I invited comments so I guess I'm getting what I asked for!


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## painters (Sep 6, 2007)

You touched a nerve, tough crowd.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> Rick-
> 
> You might want to learn to read... post #4 clearly says that he bought a Yankee 30 Mk III.


Do I need to sue my optomologist?......

*4. Prioritize. I decided that a strong structure was very important to me, pure comfort second, and length regardless a very distant third. I decided that I'd rather sail something easy to single-hand, VERY easy, and smaller so I'd have more time out there. This is how I see it, every day out there on a smaller boat beats the hell out of the same day working to refit a larger boat, or having to head in to make more money for the larger boat. Safety was always important to me and I always thought of it in terms of handling rather than equipment. What I mean is that I'd rather have something smaller that I could handle properly than to simply rely on the brute size to carry me through any rough weather. Keep in mind that knowing I'm in a 30' might cause me to make a different decision regarding route or window than if I were sailing 36'.*


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I thought you had some good points WF - good luck in your wandering


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

RIK - SD meant post #4 not WF numbered advice


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Duly noted. Thank you........


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

painters - true, and one of the reasons I'll be glad to be out there rather than debating semantics from an armchair. It kind of reminds me of another forum for Porsches that I used to frequent, God forbid if you didn't have a $100k 993TT and race every weekend. Yikes!

I suppose I'll just skulk into a corner and keep real quiet. It'll be easy to do with the work list I have in front of me!!

To those who formed their own opinion about my post and just wished me luck - thanks

To those who naysayed from the start - well you're entitled to your opinion after all.

To anyone that has any comments on my thoughts of buying a boat - would love to hear them!

I'll post my list of projects and their progress for those interested.

Peace out,
Humble Grasshopper


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I don't wanna get in an argument with you WF. 
Yankees 30's are nice boats and seaworthy if in good shape. 
Hopefully you got a good one and will learn what you don't know along the way.


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

MARRSY - Thanks, good or not that's what I got out of it. I actually thought I had some reasonable observations there. I know that I would have liked to have read something like that at the beginning of MY search. Perhaps my debut was too much for some, oh well, life is too short... if anyone gets anything positive out of all this, that would be mighty fine.


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

camarderie - no arguments here - it's all good. I think I could spend two lifetimes on what I don't know along the way, in fact I think everyone could. If I waited until I knew everything before forming an opinion though I wouldn't have many opinions at all.

I appreciate everyone's responses and didn't think I was trying to be someone I'm not. Kind of felt that I made my neophyte status pretty clear, and I accept I was especially acerbic about the title companies, but that one stung me hard - much more than anything here. I have strong opinions about most things - seems if nothing else I have a lot in common with many here. Ah, it feels like home!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Rick-

The really sad part is I quoted the relevant post #4 in my post... If your inability to read the entire post is due to the prescription being that bad... yes, you probably need to sue your opthalmologist.... otherwise, you need to sue your elementary school. 


RickLaPaz said:


> Do I need to sue my optomologist?......


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi Wandering . I thought your 1st post was great and I wish you Godspeed on your adventure . I hope it turns out to be everything and more than you had hoped it to be. The advice you gave was sound and worth its weight IMHO . It sounds like you have a pioneer spirit and your at a point in your life that you can do those things that so many can not . It also sounds like you do your homework . Have you started a checklist yet ? If so Id love to see it . Maybe thats a way off yet but I would like to hear your progress.
I allways err on the side of caution because Ive got a little bit of blue water time under my belt and Ive seen seas out there that made my jaw drop and sphincter pucker. Im not trying to discourage you in any way but I would ask this for your consideration . Try and go on a delivery or two before you head out across the big blue by yourself. Deliveries are great for lots of reasons some being :-the captains are guys that have been there done that types . so you can learn a lot . If something can go wrong with a boat it usually will on a delivery , so you get to see repairs in the worst of conditions ie adapt improvise overcome . The weather is allways bad on deliveries and wind is allways coming from exactly whare your trying to get to. Besides when you get to whare ever it is the rich guy wants his boat , you get a few bucks in your pocket ,a wealth of experience you could never get anywhare else ,youll make life long friends . Most of all youll know if you and your boat is up to it.
There ya go nuff said Godspeed


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> Rick-
> 
> The really sad part is I quoted the relevant post #4 in my post... If your inability to read the entire post is due to the prescription being that bad... yes, you probably need to sue your opthalmologist.... otherwise, you need to sue your elementary school.


Duly noted, part doo. Being in So Cal, I think I'll just sue everyone I've been in contact with for the last 40 years. I could always use an extra $2.00..........


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

*Wish U Well*

The Contessa 26 can be found for $10,000-$ 20,000 & has been chosen by a male and a female to attempt to set a record for youngest solo circumnavigation. I think as long as the vessel is seaworthy we should all wish U God speed.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I admire your spirit WF but FWIW, sitting out in a cold, stormy ocean huddled miserably in the middle of a leaking cabin 100 miles from shore on a settee that drops out from under you every 45 seconds while another wave drops millions of gallons of cold salty water into your cockpit is a VASTLY overrated pastime.

Of course there is the cold can of Heinz spaghetti rolling around in the bilge to look forward to, and the faint hope that you'll be able to dry your bedding out in under a week, but those bright beacons are cruelly extinguished by the sounds of sundry pieces of rigging and hardware tearing, breaking and sliding back and forth across the deck until they finally go flying over the side. Because you know at least one of them was an important part.

Me, I have never appreciated the sheer terror going out on deck in 50 knot winds engenders, as you stare at the drogue and the puny piece of metal holding it onto the boat, wondering if the metal will break or the fibreglass will let go.

And that's not even the Mid-Atlantic, it's just getting from Newfoundland to Nova Scotia...God forbid I should ever end up sailing through some of the storms we saw in the Navy.

So while I admire your spirit, it's a really good idea to spend a few years sailing around harbours, then just off the coast about 50 miles. Then sign on for a crossing with a skipper who knows what he/she is doing.

THEN - go sail around the world...

Me - I'll just pop below and put the potatoes in to bake so that they're ready when we pull in to the marina. It's been a hard 7 hours of sailing


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## 66luders (Jan 22, 2007)

WF,
I am glad that you tried to share what you know. From what you wrote I don't think that you are too bothered by negativity... I just hope that you will still tell more of what you are doing with your new boat. 
I am in a similar situation. One big difference is that I have a schedule that is stretched out a lot longer than yours... I plan to stay where I am, refit, learn to sail for probably 10 years, (until my daughter is college age).


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

WanderingFool said:


> arbanhart - yes it is if thats a MkII


I got it from that blog you referenced in one of your posts:

http://blog.mailasail.com/avalon

I hope to be shopping for an island hopping boat one of these days and I think 30' is the sweet spot for 1-3 people. I was figuring I would have to spend the better part of 50k to get one ready to go, but it is definitely a mistake to use dollars as any sort of objective measure. The more I read and research, the less I am interested in a major crossing. It's an accomplishment to be proud of for sure, but all the stories do seem to have a common trend - days of boredom punctuated by short episodes of sheer terror. Even island hopping can be dicey, but the weather windows are easier to get right and there is more interesting stuff to see and do. But that is my decision, not yours.

I think a lot of negativity gets generated because bad advice on this board could have dire consequences. People err on the side of caution in posting as well as sailing and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. You seem to be thinking things through pretty well.


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## ehmanta (Sep 12, 2006)

W-F, 
The Yankee is designed by S&S about the same time the designed the Tartan 30. In fact they look like identical twins, but the Yankees could be had for a little less. I'm not sure about the rig options, but with the fin keel and spade rudder, these boats will be a bit rough in heavy weather.
You could look at a Tartan 34 for just a little more money and get a modified keel with a skeg to protect the rudder and a better balast/displacement ratio. The 34 is easy to single hand and not too large. I have an older S&S Tartan 37 and can easily single-hand her, it's all about thinking ahead and preparing for the worst: reef early, have things at hand, and don't get too cockey out there or king Neptune will have a word with you!!!


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Ehmanta,

I believe W-F already purchased the Yankee 30. Some of them appear to have skeg hung rudders, but I don't know whether that's the Mark I, II, or III. Here's an example:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1877&url=

W-F,

I quickly perused the thread but didn't see where you described your sailing experience. If "newbie" refers not just to your recent status as a boat owner, I hope you'll consider some of the solid advice offered about getting experience off-shore as delivery crew. If you're completely new to sailing, it would be good to get some practice in with experienced mentors before you are tested on your own. I saw that you plan to spend upwards of a year gaining experience before you set out, but a major refit of an old boat could easily occupy all your time. Be sure to build some sailing time into your schedule. Crewing on other boats will also help with the refit, as you'll be able to better understand the hardware requirements and desirable configurations. Good luck with your plan.


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## canadianseamonkey (Sep 4, 2006)

WF, good for you and congrats on your purchase. I admire you're determination and your sense of adventure. Sailnet has many good people who are only looking out for your life, others are jealous that they don't have the balls you have to get out there. If you listen to some of them with all their advise, you'll never leave. 

Now that you have your boat, refit it, get some experience, set a reasonable departure date that you think is achievable and leave. Many people have done like you are doing and have survived, I know a few myself. Personally, I have no intentions on crossing the North Atlantic, but would rather do the ICW and island hop, that is my comfort zone and you will know yours as well.

All the best and please post as you continue your refit.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

WF,
I admire your spunk. 
You've got a good boat and I wish you well on your travels. 

If I may add just a bit of caution:

He that knows not,
and knows not that he knows not
is a fool.
Shun him

He that knows not,
and knows that he knows not
is a pupil.
Teach him.

He that knows,
and knows not that he knows
is asleep
Wake him.

He that knows,
and knows that he knows
is a teacher.
Follow him.

(arabic proverb)

Please, please, please take the well meant advise of some of the more "seasoned" here. They know of what they speak.


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## painters (Sep 6, 2007)

You held your ground and the vultures backed off, good job. I can see you don't take crap from anybody. Have fun. Besides I don't think anybody promised you at birth that you were going to get out of here alive. Maybe better off going down at sea then at the state run nursing home. and if you do make it to the nursing home at least you will have a story for them


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

What painters said


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

RXBOTT-thanks

Sailormann - As per my original post, sailed when I was a child and in my teens about ten years experience, and infrequently since, by no means do I feel ready, but I have a solid base and will spend the next year sailing her to determine if she's right and I'm ready. BTW - I could tell you some stories about winds and waves way over 50knts - but on land! The gulf coast during a major hurricane can show one the awesome power of nature! Oh, and watching planes run into buildings can show how a group of people can feel so threatened by others who believe in a different way of life. Neither of these things are pertinent to my original post, and honestly don't belong here, but do you get my point?

66luders - The more years spent the better in terms of experience, sounds like you are preparing well, I wish you well.

arbanhart - Well, "days of boredom punctuated by short episodes of sheer terror" could easily describe my life and experiences the last 6 years, having experienced 9/11 and Katrina deeply with long bouts of unhappiness living a 'secure' life in between, it's something I'm not averse to attempt.

ehmanta - The yankee 30 has a modified fin keel and skeg rudder, which was an alternative to full keel boats I looked at. I appreciate the notion of erring on the side of caution, but still feel I'm not being rash, I'm *not* just buying a boat and taking off tomorrow!! Nor am I suggesting others do that. All in my original post.

JohnRPollard - I'll be sailing her for a year to determine what I think, doing general work to bring her up to snuff, then if I feel the boat is right will START the heavy refit in about a year - *all per my original post.* I am certainly going to build on my early experience until I feel comfortable, so no, I'm not completely new to sailing nor am I out to break any records or amaze others with my feats, I just want to go around the world in a sailboat - for ME.

If most, not all(thanks ya'll), would read my entire post carefully before making comments(are you reading this RickLaPaz?) I believe many of the questions raised would be answered. I certainly appreciate constructive advice on my intentions, not that it will change my mind, and although I welcome this advice, my post was my experience BUYING A BOAT. 
I realize my intent with said boat has caused quite a stir, which is fine, I'll do with my life what I want regardless of what other's think. By no means would I want to encourage others to be 'moronic', but I also refuse to dampen any other's attempts at their dreams. That said, my intent was to share my experience buying a boat, so that others out there that might believe one MUST have a certain size boat with certain equipment, isn't *necessarily* the case, and in the end the most important thing to do is to get the information, digest it as best as possible and then COME UP WITH ONE'S OWN OPINION and act accordingly. It's hard for me to think that's bad advice! If one only did what this forum whole heartedly accepted and agreed with, well it would be a sad world run by committee.

I feel this post has really run it's course and quite frankly is beginning to give me that exhausted feeling - so I'm going to take a break and consider it closed. I've got too much to do!! Despite having to constantly refer to my original post and taking one or two personal attacks here, I'm hardly fazed, and in fact as excited as I was when I pushed the "POST" button(oh why did I take the red pill?!)
I WILL keep people posted on my work and progress though and hopefully will contribute positively to this forum.
Thanks to all for their comments.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I am sorry I saw this thread so late. WF, I thought your initial post was well-written, reasoned, and very interesting. If there was hubris or false sounding claims of expertise, they flew right by me. Thanks for adding to the general level of discourse on this site. If I have this right, you want to cruise, but don't know how much or what boat you ultimately want; so, you did a ton of research and came up with a boat that meets your budget and needs, and will spend about a year outfitting and sailing her to see how you like it and if the boat and you are up to extended voyaging. Hmm, doesn't sound too controversial to me. Actually, it sounds far more reasoned than the posts that start out "Hi, I will be sailing around the world next month and want to know, what's the best boat?". I think most of the posters here offered their support and encouragement for your plan. I was actually kind of surprised at the negative comments (which you ably pointed out where probably due to careless readings of your original post), and very surprised at those few who truly jumped ugly on you.

You've got a plan; do it. I hope you don't let any negative feelings from this thread deter you from keeping us in the loop on how it goes for you.


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

Potentially great thread screwed up by poor reading comprehension. Congrats to the 'Fool'.

"Leap and the net will appear"


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## Gene T (May 23, 2006)

I will jump in here and suggest a book. My Old Man and the Sea by David Hays and Daniel Hays. A 17,000 mile trip around Cape Horn on a 25 foot boat.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

WF (like your handle...)

Your enthusiam certainly is catchy and your confidence in your plan and your abilities is breathe-taking. I hope your dream works out for you and that you have a wonderful experience, and that we all get to hear about it. The Yankee 30 is one of the first boats I ever sailed, back in the '70s, and is a delightful boat.

Should you proceed in chasing your dream I sure wish you good luck and that your dream gets fulfilled.

In the meantime, I've gotta say that your attitude in response to other posts (and I anticipate in response to mine) reminds me a lot of the hubris shown by another infamous dreamer, as recounted in this recent newspaper article:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/07/07/rescued_rower_says_he_wont_try_again/

Enjoy, whatever.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

SF-

He was French, and a lousy engineer--designed the POS boat he made the attempt in, and it was leaking so badly he abandoned his first attempt. He then patched up the POS and made a second attempt, and then gave up a mere 50 miles from the coast.

Also, as noted in the article, Girard's longest previous venture in rowing was a six-hour voyage on an inland lake—a far cry from a trans-Atlantic crossing.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

*All true...*



sailingdog said:


> SF-
> 
> He was French, and a lousy engineer--designed the POS boat he made the attempt in, and it was leaking so badly he abandoned his first attempt. He then patched up the POS and made a second attempt, and then gave up a mere 50 miles from the coast.
> 
> Also, as noted in the article, Girard's longest previous venture in rowing was a six-hour voyage on an inland lake-a far cry from a trans-Atlantic crossing.


All true, but in particular he was very confident, ethusiastic and talked a very great plan...sort of sounds like...who?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

sailingfool said:


> All true, but in particular he was very confident, ethusiastic and talked a very great plan...sort of sounds like...who?


Ken Barnes for one...


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## byrondv (Jan 6, 2007)

sailingfool said:


> All true, but in particular he was very confident, ethusiastic and talked a very great plan...sort of sounds like...who?


I can't agree more. WF is going to fail beyond a doubt unless he removes all that stupid confidence, enthusiasm, and throws all planning to the wind.

Wait... Maybe you are focusing on the wrong elements of what make up a failure...


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

WF,
Maybe because I've had too much coffee, or I'm just cranky, (yea, thats it)...
_
I've done many hundreds of hours on the internet, not including many books, articles, and trips to see boats. 
I asked many of the questions that many seem to ask here, mainly, what is the best boat to ___________? 
I just wanted to share some thoughts so that those that may have the same idea as me might benefit from my experience._

so far, so good

_I did what I thought was reasonable research, found 3 reasonable models and then waited until 
I thought I found a good deal that met my requirements. 
_

lets see, from hundreds of hours of internet searching and wandering around the docks.

_Look - you never know with opinions, 
people can make nearly any boat seem like the worst or best of something with a little good prose. _

True, very true

_The most important thing is to know and understand the strengths & weaknesses of any particular boat and plan(& sail) accordingly._

And how exactly were you able to actertain this, from your vast sailing experience as a child and a teen? or from your numerous hours of pouring across the digital world? Maybe you walked on a deck of a Bristol and said, naw, just ain't gonna do it?

_For example do the research to understand a full keel's pros and cons compared to a modified fin keel's. _

Um, what research? Have you sailed on both? docked on either, What, plainly spoken are the advantages/disadvanages? to either? 
Example, In 25 kts of following wind, which keel config will perform more adroitly in regards to a lee shore? Why?

_Remember if you ask others you are just getting opinions and while other's opinions are valuable, the most important opinion is your own_

I'd rather ask Keith Black or Smokey Yunick what the the best piston rings are than a guy thats seen piston rings on the net

_Safety was always important to me and I always thought of it in terms of handling rather than equipment.
One doesn't NEED 36' or self-tailing winches, or roller- furling rigs, or whatever. Most 'things' are convenience. _

good for you, again, experience son, experience...
have you ever tried to grind on a fouled non-tailer in wind and rain? Did you have to cut the rigging and let the sail beat itself to death, losing control of the boat, and rigging, while you're wondering why you didn't get that self tailer and, btw, good luck with those rope burns on your hands.

_I qualify that by also writing that I fear many technological advances are learned by newbies so that without them sailing seems impossible._

This, from your vast experience sailing as a child and a teen.

_The majority of my sailing experience was when I was a kid and teen, rolling furlers, self-tailing winches, GPS, etc. were either not yet around or extravagant luxuries. 
If one learns to sail competently without many of these things not only does one become a better sailor, the convenience and safety of those items increase because one may actually understand the older, 'more difficult' processes._

Very well said.

_Know and respect your and your boat's limitations._

Based on your own comments, you have no idea on Gods green earth what you, or your boats limitations are!

_I decided that I'd rather sail something easy to single-hand, VERY easy, and smaller so I'd have more time out there._

So, do that with hand hanked jibs and non self tailers, they're just conveniences after all. Let us know how easy it was for you to change from the 150 to the 100 in 25kt winds, ok? Take along some bungies for the wheel willya?

_I have not purported to be anything other than what I am - a newbie 1st boat buyer as per my title._

Exactly, but hey, you did your research, Lots of sea trials on at least a dozen boats, right? so its all good. Opinions are like **sholes someone said.

_I got an opinion - yes those dreaded opinions - about the boat from a family friend who runs a large composite company, he knows his resin, and he said he took his family of four cruising in the Caribbean in the late sixties on a 30', which was considered quite comfortable in those days(his words.)_

Good for him.... did he happen to mention in the late 60's most, if not all FRP boats of size had hand laid hulls with thicknesses of oh, up to 2 inches thick?

_Seems to me that people are jumping on my intended use of boat rather than anything else.
I've purported no great knowledge, only what I found in my experience._

Exactly, and your experience is moot. Because you have none, other than internet, dock strolling, and buying a "best for you" first boat. If you've pounded a few decks, or sea trialed a good cross-section, (you haven't said) you ain't done diddly. (that just my opinion of course, what the heck do I know)

_
That said, my intent was to share my experience buying a boat, so that others out there that might believe one MUST have a certain size boat with certain equipment, 
isn't necessarily the case, _

So, you, with NO experience sailing other than as a child and teen, feel qualified to tell other folks that hey, you don't necessarily need self tailers even though you've not used them. roller furling? get over it, its just a fad. What next in all of your worldly experience will you advise us on? EPIRB's? VHF? Liferafts and PFD's? Tell us again about that whole overblown full vs fin keel thing, ok? What in your vast experience helped you in your decision to go with one over the other?

_and in the end the most important thing to do is to get the information, digest it as best as possible and then 
COME UP WITH ONE'S OWN OPINION and act accordingly. It's hard for me to think that's bad advice! _

Its not bad advise per se. Include a fair amount of "hands on" then frog up.

This is no personal attack at all, I'm sure you're a fine fellow and wish you nothing but Godspeed and fair winds.

My greatest fear is that someday soon, guys in orange foulies and driving big cutters or choppers will be dispactched and will have to risk their lives to pluck your highly experienced and researched ass out of the drink... because some things "are just conveniences".

I need a nap.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Ding ding ding, we have a winner..........

Nicely played, Cardiac.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

CP,
The next round is on me.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

From thecubans Mipa...

"never argue with a man thats lived with a cuban woman, he's frustrated enough."


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Ding,ding,ding...was that the sound of CP's pacemaker going off?? (g)


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

Cam,
ain't funny, I'm out the door right now to get it checked.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie said:


> Ding,ding,ding...was that the sound of CP's pacemaker going off?? (g)


Not likely, more the clanging of the bell that symbolizes reality, instead of the ethereal world of butterflies, unicorns, furry puppies and rainbows. And he gets bonus points as well for inadverntantly picking up my slack wrt where I was originally headed too earlier.

The fact of the matter is, WF seems to be very big on giving advice and opinions, despite his admitted disdain for other's opinions and advice from people and writers with tons more experience. A simple analogy would be the Porsche owner going to the Ford mechanic for tech advice. Not very wise. But if there are any others here that feel his advice is both ground breaking and earth shattering and will now by a similar boat because WF knows it is good enough, that furlers and s/t's and windlasses and room for spares and stores and ground tackle is unnecessary, have at it, and good luck. Just remember to duck your head when you crawl into the white and orange helo.......


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## WanderingFool (Aug 17, 2007)

Thanks for all the responses! I would've really been put off if this post just died a quick death, would've felt that my post was not worth a response. Instead I've gotten some really great feedback that will definitely help me to prepare. Thanks to all for the words of caution to the many dangers out there. This forum is truly invaluable. I'll no doubt have some frightening moments once I get out there for the real deal, but I'm confident that I can prepare well enough to reasonably face those risks, at least to my satisfaction. I don't think I'd ever be able to satiate some posters standards! 
I'd love to go back and forth with some of you, defending myself and my post, but I've just go too much to do to evaluate the boat and get ready. I appreciate ya'lls brutal honesty - that is definitely helpful and I don't scare easily, so I won't just slink away because of some of your strong opinions. I welcome them and have already learned quite a bit. 
It's certainly not going to be easy to get a lot of sailing in and work AND work on the boat in two years time. Sometimes I think my dream is insurmountable, that I am just being ridiculous and unrealistic, but then I just plug on ahead anyway, guess at heart I am truly just a wandering fool. 
I hope my future threads are more well received, more positive, and maybe even help others, if not then at least I can say I tried. 
I'll post some of the work I'm doing and a whole lot of opinions to contribute more grist for the mill when I can.


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## jldooley (Aug 1, 2007)

Wf,
Good post #1, sorry I found it so late. 
I wish you well. I hear what you are saying and your goal is obtainable and well planned. 
i have pm'd you


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Here's a bit of advice, WF, that has served me very well and saved my ass more than once. Cynicism is grossly under rated and should be practiced by more people. For one, it prepares you much better for the scary and ****ty things that occur in life, and two, it makes the small victories you win and the good things that happen much more appreciated and enjoyable. Give it a shot some time, it can be rather enlightening--and beneficial for a long and health life.......

In a round-a-bout way, several of us are hinting that you have a long ways to go before the Big Leave, nothing more. Not an ounce of jealousy that I can surmise, just your safety in mind. Get that boat of yours equipped and ready then sail the crap out of her. Day, night, rain, squally weather, everything. Better yet, go off shore a hundred miles then turn around and turn off the electronic aids for a day while you are heading home. _That's_ a fun one........

Good luck,

Rick


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## painters (Sep 6, 2007)

Without even knowing it, WF took his post from sailing to a study in human nature. Got me to thinking, I wonder how many people stood on the dock and told Columbus he was crazy that the world was flat and he would never be seen again. How many Viking women told there husbands they were nuts for leaving in a open boat to cross the sea. How many men told there wives not to worry that the Titanic was unsinkable. Truth is most of us are not even half as smart as we think we are and Wf helped once again to prove that point


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

painters said:


> Without even knowing it, WF took his post from sailing to a study in human nature. Got me to thinking, I wonder how many people stood on the dock and told Columbus he was crazy that the world was flat and he would never be seen again. How many Viking women told there husbands they were nuts for leaving in a open boat to cross the sea. How many men told there wives not to worry that the Titanic was unsinkable. Truth is most of us are not even half as smart as we think we are and Wf helped once again to prove that point


"The defense rests, Your Honor"..........

Brilliant, btw....


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

For every Columbus whose stellar achievements disproved the naysayers, there are dozens of dreamers like Donald Crowhurst and Nenad Belic lost at sea, and hundreds of wannabes like Charlie Girard and Ken Barnes who bail out as soon as their feet get wet, and thousands on thousands of characters like john232 and surfesq whose dreams fizzle into those expensive, half completed project boats that litter most any boatyard you might visit. 

So WF may someday earn a comparison to Columbus, but the odds are mightly long against it.

But good luck to him, and I look forward to hearing from him when he's done something worth talking about.


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## painters (Sep 6, 2007)

Donald Crowhurst, good one. lol


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## jldooley (Aug 1, 2007)

So far on this post i like " go out 100 miles and turn of the electronics' best . talk about a Real World Test of abilities. best idea i've heard in quite a while, thanks


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## punjabi (Jul 16, 2007)

I've found that regardless of what you're trying to do in life, there is always a contingent of people, some of whom are very knowledgeable and others who are not so much, but for whatever reason, that particular group wants to be elite. By making it seem like the newbies are in way over their head and they don't know what they're talking about...."you have to prove that you can belong"..."you'll shoot your eye out"...yada, yada, yada....they maintain some perceived position of authority that they use to prop up their ego.

Ignore them.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

*Whose ego trip?*



punjabi said:


> .... By making it seem like the newbies are in way over their head and they don't know what they're talking about...."....they maintain some perceived position of authority that they use to prop up their ego.
> 
> Ignore them.


Perhaps the first post in this thread is just someone's ego trip?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Actually I think he is going about his dream in a reasonable way...has chosen a decent boat...and will learn about it and his own shortcomings with time to fix them before he heads out into dangerous territory. So I give him props for doing his homework and having a reasonable plan. Time will tell if the plan can become reality.
My objections were to what I perceived to be ego/arrogance in advising others what to do before he has even figured out whether he had a good surveyor. He claimed not to be giving advice to anyone but here are several statements:
*the most important opinion is your own.
Don't blow all your budget
Redefine size needed.
Prioritize...What I mean is that I'd rather have something smaller that I could handle properly than to simply rely on the brute size to carry me through any rough weather
Don't believe the hype...One doesn't NEED 36' or self-tailing winches, or roller- furling rigs, or whatever

*That all sounds like advice to me and I was particularly smitten by the "the most important opinion is your own" statement when made from a position of no experience. Sorry...but Bob Perry's opinion is better than mine even after 35 years on the water or so. I think that is what set several of us off more than any desire to be THE oracles around here. 
I wish ANY sailor who has a dream of sailing to far off places good luck and stand ready to provide advice about the things I know or keep my mouth shut otherwise. I just didn't like the attitude that came across on the first post.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*"Above all else, to thine own self be true"*

Nothing gets me more excited in this world than sailing.
Nothing.

With the experience that I do have, good and bad, offshore and coastal, its all part of the parcel. No regrets. 
With that said, at the end of the day all that matters is that you follow your dreams. And you are.

I personally like the "Thoreau" approach to matters - simply do it now with what you have available. There is nothing to worry about!!! Things always have a way of making out if you are a good person. And they do.

I have a tiny folkboat, akin to the contessa 26, and have done considerable travels on the west coast with that thing. It was the first boat I ever bought many years ago and the only one I actually went to see in person. While I could afford a larger supposedly "better" boat now, this little gem keeps proving herself over and over again. I keep my coin for more important things, like good food and drink. It just grows on you, thats all. It is such a simple little boat and you always feel safe in it, even in the nasties. The point is just this: I am following my dreams with what I can and I love it!! Working on a boat can be just as much fun as sailing it, regardless of what people say. Its all part of the experience.

You have entered a different world that few landfolk seem to even know about. The beauty of sailing is that you can never ever truly learn all there is to know about it....there is always something new to learn. Always.

Good on ya for chasing the dream!

Good on ya for just doing it!

This is not a contest, as some people seem to think. This is not about the perfect ride. EVERY SAILBOAT IS OR HAS A COMPROMISE IN SOME WAY. Some just have more or less than others. THERE IS NO PERFECT SAILBOAT.

Its all about being there and getting there. Wherever, however and whenever that happens to be don't really matter.

Cheers.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

yohosail said:


> *I personally like the "Thoreau" approach to matters - simply do it now with what you have available. There is nothing to worry about!!! Things always have a way of making out if you are a good person. And they do.*
> Cheers.


Fantastic advice there pal.

(But beware the saber toothed unicorns and poisonous butterflys)........


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

yoho...I had a good friend with a folkboat. Great little boats. I remember him setting a course one time across the chesapeake and the boat was so well balanced that we sailed for over an hour without touching the tiller while maintaining course! Enjoy...


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

WF- 
Congrats on the purchase. Good luck refitting and learning. Thanks for sharing, I'm pulling for you.

Haters-
That's great, just because someone isn't doing it "your way" you **** all over his plan. At no time did WF claim to be an expert in any way, shape, or form. In post #1 he was only relaying his recent experience with the purchasing process. I'm glad he did so that others may take from his experience and learn from it, or compare it with their own experience. Just like every other thread where someone says "I like product A", every hater comes out and says "Product A is **** you need Product B". Never mind that Product B is ten times as expensive and doesn't suit the newbies requirements.

I'm just glad that WF isn't thin skinned, that way he won't be scared off and he will return with more input from his learning experience. That is what this whole site is supposed to be about right, sharing and learning from each other. At least he isn't one of these guys who comes around saying he just bought a 75 Catalina 22 and he plans to do the Notrthwest Passage next week. The guy did some research, purchaced a good boat that was within his means, and has a plan to learn before doing anything big. It's no wonder there isn't more diversity around here with all the haters scaring away everyone new that happens to have the balls to pipe up with something you don't agree with. You have alot of experience haters? Great, then share it with WF in a constructive fashion. Otherwise you just come off sounding like a *****, not like an experienced sailor with some good info to share and help guide his way. You can have all the experience in the world, but if you come off like an asswipe then you will greatly narrow your audience.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have been and still am encouraging WF but with caution, which he seems to already be exercising. As far as opinions go, I have plenty of my own and I share them with (what I think are) honest disclaimers about my lack of long term or blue water experience. Much of what I know comes from research and I sometimes sense the same resentment toward my opinions that some posts expressed toward WF's. The problem with research is knowing the good from the bad. Well worn books I get at the library I tend to put a fair amount of faith in; posts on Internet forums that seem somewhat antagonistic I don't put nearly as much stock in. Anyway, if you really want to help those of us with less experience, please don't criticize us for having formed opinions already. That's just human nature and you probably had opinions early also. Just help us mold those opinions by offering up things to consider. When I am wrong (and it happens), telling me I am full of crap really doesn't help much.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

"Sailing around the world" isn't a single act. In order to do it, WF will have to undergo innumerable smaller adventures, all of which he will learn from. The first trip down the coast, the first bay or island crossing. So I figure he (and anyone in his shoes) will learn what he doesnt't know soon enough, and either make the necessary investments in time and effort, or stop. If he is lucky, he will learn important lessons before he has a catastrophe, which will lengthen the trip. If not, he may be held up or even stopped early in the game. In any case, I wish him luck. Humility is a virtue in any case.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

WF,

In case there was any doubt, my earlier comments were intended as encouraging (your reply suggested you might not have taken them that way). Sorry I missed your sailing resume -- it's a long thread and sometimes the details get fuzzy amoungst all the subsequent posts -- but I stand by the suggestion to schedule in some sailing time as crew during the re-fit. 

As for the re-fit, from what I can tell you chose a good ol' boat, and you seem to have the wherewithal and circumstances to bring your dream to fruition. Keep us posted on the projects (before and after photos would be nice). Try to keep a good photo journal as you go along -- your project would make a great "refit" article that you could later write-up and publish during your voyage. You can always come up with the prose later, but if you don't have the "before" photos and some "step-by-steps" they'll be hard to replicate. Just a suggestion. Enjoy the journey!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

*If he is going about it the right way... he'll work his way up to it.* However Girard, the French rower didn't do that prior to his Trans-Atlantic failure... I don't believe Ken Barnes did it either.... The ones advocating caution aren't that far off base. Hubris leads to downfall. They're just trying to prevent WF from becoming a statistic.



Bardo said:


> "Sailing around the world" isn't a single act. In order to do it, WF will have to undergo innumerable smaller adventures, all of which he will learn from. The first trip down the coast, the first bay or island crossing. So I figure he (and anyone in his shoes) will learn what he doesnt't know soon enough, and either make the necessary investments in time and effort, or stop. If he is lucky, he will learn important lessons before he has a catastrophe, which will lengthen the trip. If not, he may be held up or even stopped early in the game. In any case, I wish him luck. Humility is a virtue in any case.


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

Sapperwhite said:


> WF-
> Congrats on the purchase. Good luck refitting and learning. Thanks for sharing, I'm pulling for you.
> 
> Haters-
> ...


Perfect!

I can't help but be convinced that if the OP had split that first post into 8-12 different ones and spread them out over the course of a couple months, the 'senior members' would be falling all over themselves to congratulate him on his 'intelligence' and 'right-mindedness'. You guys are a hoot! Some of you bash newbies for asking the same old questions and here's a guy who did the equivalent of looking up the old threads and not bothering those of us who like to concentrate on the 'song chain'. This guy deserved better. It's a shame no-one noticed this line from his first post: *"the boat also had to be in good enough shape to sail right away so that I could sail for about a year before I started upgrading"*.

For those with poor reading comprehension, that means he isn't planing to go around the world tomorrow.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

_"You have alot of experience haters? Great, then share it with WF in a constructive fashion. Otherwise you just come off sounding like a *****, not like an experienced sailor with some good info to share and help guide his way. You can have all the experience in the world, but if you come off like an asswipe then you will greatly narrow your audience."_

I'm not trying to pissin' in anyones post toasties, but it really does chap my a** when someone is trying to justify their purchase on nebulus concepts and then gets wanked off when a person of well, weathered time and experience calls him on it.

please note the the OP really hasn't answered any of the questions I posed to him in his response, thats his choice, but to me, it shows that he really doesn't have a clue, and it will cost him. Or it will cost the guys who have to resuce him. Or cost his passengers with their safety.

Look, there were a lot of haters concerning that 1000 days guy and chicklet, Personally, I hope they make it. keep growin' those sprouts!

I am most concerned about the fellows safety, thats all. really, thats it I love when people get boats and follow their dreams, I really do. it would have been nice if he had said, "you know, I'm new at this, and I've got a lot of work to do, and I could use a hand. But he didn't. He said something that came off (to me at least) sounding like... "I don't need all the BS that you guys spout,. I'm going to do it my way 'cuz my opinion is the only one that matters and I know what I'm doing" While also saying that he is"new". Hey, everyone is new at some point, thats no worry at all. One of the best things in the world is watching a new sailor fill the canvas for the first time. Seeing that "I can't stop grinning" look is very cool indeed. We've all been there.

The jist that I got from his original post troubled me. IMHO, he's the guy that we'd move our boat away from when he goes to dock.

A real world example. 
I was commissioned to do a survey on a boat for a first time buyer. This was going to be a significant purchase for the couple, and represented a very long frame of time that the couple had poured over the 'net, looking for a perfect for them boat. (about a year and a half of looking I think) They had traveled 400 miles, got a condo for the week, this was the real deal. This was the tub of their dreams. 
asking price 385k, 47ft sloop

They had a 3" 3 ring binder filled with performance ratios, sail plans, pictures, reviews, forum articles and yachtworld listings.

At breakfast the morning of the survey the wife said something that gave me pause. She said, We've chartered in BVI once 4 years ago for a week and we've not been on any other sailboat at all.

Ok, I'm thinking, so, how do y'all know that this is the boat for you? but hey, thats none of my business. (yet)

After a couple of hours of talking to them, I could tell that the couple really did want to sail, no doubt but were clueless as to what they really wanted to do with the boat, coastal, long term, liveaboard, all of those questions were met with "we've thought about this but aren't sure" type of responses. call me crazy and paint me pink, but if I'm laying out that amount of moola, I'd have some more concrete answers.

Anyway, we head to the boat, its in rough shape. needs sails, standing/running rigging and tackle, bulkheads need replacing, diesel is in sad operating condition, stantions and fitments are weak, teak deck is in real bad shape, more leaks than a shower head, deck is like a sponge, rudder post and bushings need replacing, every portlight leaks, a/c burnt, auto-pilot is toast, needs all electronics, had a repaired 3" gash in the hull below the w/l
You get the drift.

I pointed everything out, emailed the report and photos, along with SWAG estimates of repair. I recommended that they keep looking, that this boat was barely seaworthy and the cost of repair and fair price for boat would exceed the cost of a new boat.

One of the good things about being a surveyor is I get paid regardless of what the people do.

One of the bad things is I get sued when the people don't follow the recommendations I give and try to blame me for "writ of merchantability" issues.

Needless to say the couple bought the boat for 300k. I got a note from them a couple of months later basically saying, thanks, but you are an idiot, we love our boat, its perfect for us.

Ok, thecuban calls me worse almost daily so its all good.

9 months go by and a nice constable delivers a satchel of papers. I'm being sued, seems like the plaintiffs are upset that the repair of the boat is a little more than my swag figures and the owners are seeking recourse. hmmm.

In discovery it comes out that the repair bill as of that date was a little over 200k, and the owners aren't pleased that I didn't "adequetly inform the plaintiff of the condition of the boat, and the costs of the repairs needed" .

Nice, sweet, I'll be damned.

The suit was dismissed. My legal bill was more than twice what the survey cost.

So If i'm a more than little direct so be it. 
if a person, in my opinion is a moron I've got no problem saying so. If a boat is a POS I'll say so. I will be clear, concise, and to the point, If you don't like it, don't hire me. 
If you don't like it, pull up your big girl panties and deal with it. 
If you don't like it, don't listen. I don't care much either way.


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## pbpme (Sep 1, 2007)

Great read WF on the first post, somehow it kind off disintegrated from there. Your post was so well structured, I thought you are setting up yourself more for a blog, which it great! Were do I sign up? 

Reading your well thought through opening, leads me to believe that IF you proceed on your journey, you will invest no less thought and articultion in relaying your experiences. Nice! I'm fascinated by why we do these things, at least some of us.

I'm in the middle of reading a Voyage for Mad Men. An apt title given the state of small boat sailing technology in the 1960's. I wonder what the 9 would have done if they asked this BB, what do you think of this ______? I suppose we could be reading the voyage of 9 men who coulda, woulda, shoulda instead. But then.... we'd have nothing that drops our jaws open. On some things, I prefer to live vicariously though others experiences, all I ask is articulate it well, and take me along fo the ride.

So get that blog going!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

This is one reason I think the court system in the US needs to be reformed. The courts should be setup that the losers in a any lawsuit need to pay the legal fees for both parties-especially if the losers are the plaintiffs and should be forced to pay punitive fines if their lawsuit is dismissed or considered frivolous.... that would really help clear up the system and prevent a lot of the nuisance lawsuits.



cardiacpaul said:


> _"You have alot of experience haters? Great, then share it with WF in a constructive fashion. Otherwise you just come off sounding like a *****, not like an experienced sailor with some good info to share and help guide his way. You can have all the experience in the world, but if you come off like an asswipe then you will greatly narrow your audience."_
> 
> I'm not trying to pissin' in anyones post toasties, but it really does chap my a** when someone is trying to justify their purchase on nebulus concepts and then gets wanked off when a person of well, weathered time and experience calls him on it.
> 
> ...


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I forgot...
that was 3 yrs ago, the boat is still on the hard, repair bill is almost 375k. hasn't been touched in 2 yrs. Still not finished, the teak deck was removed, none of the holes were plugged, it just sets there soaking up every drop of rain.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

You can always tell them what the real story is... but if they don't want to listen...nothing in the universe is going to make them listen. So basically, the couple bought the boat, loved it initially, and then blamed you because they didn't have the sense to listen to your recommendation to walk away...and now has spent more than the purchase price on repairs, and still don't have a usable boat... hmm... more money than sense. what idjits...


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I feel bad for them not because of the money or repairs, or a boat that they can't use. I feel bad for them because its been 3 yrs, and they're not sailing, its been 3 yrs and they have a sour taste in their mouths for all of the boating industry, its been 3 yrs and their dream has become a nightmare.


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## pbpme (Sep 1, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> This is one reason I think the court system in the US needs to be reformed. The courts should be setup that the losers in a any lawsuit need to pay the legal fees for both parties-especially if the losers are the plaintiffs and should be forced to pay punitive fines if their lawsuit is dismissed or considered frivolous.... that would really help clear up the system and prevent a lot of the nuisance lawsuits.


Awesome thought! Not likely to happen in our lifetime since ALL the politicians are lawyers by profession. If the loser pays.... 60%+ of all civil litigation would evaporate. (an estimate I read somewhere analyzing loser pays). On the downside of loser pays, how does the small fish stand up to the big fish, when the big fish has all the teeth?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If the system is setup so that the loser pays... *then all the little fish has to do is find a really smart and vicious lawyer willing to take the case on a spec or contingency basis... if the lawyer is that good, I guarantee they'll make out like a bandit...since the big fish would end up responsible for paying them. *  Also, if the lawyer charges a ridiculously high hourly rate, it would make up for the percentage of cases they actually do lose... 

Trust me... if the system were setup that loser pays, there would some really smart and vicious attorneys out there working the spec/contingency basis market... and taking on some cases that would otherwise never see the inside of a courtroom.



pbpme said:


> Awesome thought! Not likely to happen in our lifetime since ALL the politicians are lawyers by profession. If the loser pays.... 60%+ of all civil litigation would evaporate. (an estimate I read somewhere analyzing loser pays). On the downside of loser pays, how does the small fish stand up to the big fish, when the big fish has all the teeth?


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Cardiac Paul: That's quite a story. They obviously had more money than sense.

In defense of WF, he sounds like the exact opposite to me. And that's a preferable place to be in my book. Let's all give him a chance and I look forward to hearing reports as the project progresses.

That said, WF may well find as many have before him that comprehensive refits are very expensive: You can easily go through $20-30+K and a year or two of your free time pretty quickly. Whenever I've performed the calculus, I invariably conclude that I could go out and purchase a Dana 24, Orion 27, Mariah 31, or etc that is pretty well ready to go and more suited for the purpose. But everyone evaluates certain factors differently, so it's no surprise we come to different conclusions. And that was one of the points WF articulated.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Sailormann - As per my original post, sailed when I was a child and in my teens about ten years experience, and infrequently since, by no means do I feel ready, but I have a solid base and will spend the next year sailing her to determine if she's right and I'm ready. BTW - I could tell you some stories about winds and waves way over 50knts - but on land! The gulf coast during a major hurricane can show one the awesome power of nature! Oh, and watching planes run into buildings can show how a group of people can feel so threatened by others who believe in a different way of life. Neither of these things are pertinent to my original post, and honestly don't belong here, but do you get my point?


Uhmm - to be honest no - there are allusions to a couple of broad concepts there, but I think you need to flesh them out a bit more.

I guess the point I was trying to convey in my post was not as obvious as I should have made it. The huge difference between being out at sea and being on land is that there is NOWHERE else you can go. You can't sit there and marvel at the majesty of nature's force and then duck into the house until it blows over. You have yourself, your boat, and your survival is completely dependent on the results of any actions that you might take.

I think there is a lesson here that you might take away with you...

You made an intelligent post that generated various responses, some of which were not the reactions that you expected. I think it took you a fair amount of time to write it and there was some disapointment on your part that it did not have as much success as you had expected it would.

I don't think that you spent a lot of time considering your responses to some of the less encouraging replies that were posted by others and had you done so, you might have couched your replies in a slightly less abrasive manner.

So - when you're trying to accomplish something, be it generating positive responses from others, setting an anchor, charting a course or baking a cake... Look very carefully at things from all angles. Consider everything that could interfere with your desired outcome and alter your original concept to incorporate these factors. It takes a little more time and effort up front, but saves a lot of distress and frustration further down the road.

That said - it's not a good idea to put the phrase "opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one" and then proceed to spend a few hundred words spouting your own. Kind of undermines your credibility from the get go if you see what I mean.

Also - there are kids on here - it's fine to swear and use profanity when you're on the boat or amongst a group of like-minded adults, but on this site, I find it irritating that people can't develop a slightly boader vocabulary. There are always many ways of saying the same thing...
Maybe - "I'm not the first to have an opinion, but FWIW - here's mine..." ???

Good Luck and keep us posted !


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