# Investment grade boats



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

The economy is in tatters and everyone knows it is a buyers market for boats. That being said it appears that there are still boats that are so highly regarded that they are in short supply and will always sell.
I'm using "investment grade" as fun title to get attention. Of course any boat is going to cost a lot to keep up and you will not get your money back. Any boat will probably loose value as the years pile on. But I'm thinking that certain models are sufficiently rare and desirable or plentiful and so popular, or desirable for racing. that out of 100 boats for sale these boats will be in the top five percent to sell.

Just for fun I did a search on Jeff_H's posts back to the beginning as he typically comments on the "which boat should I buy" threads. He mentioned that the Tayana 37 would be his first choice for a 50,000 world cruiser. I tried to find one and interestingly none were available on YachtWorld. Only a couple were available elsewhere. So I'm thinking that this boat may qualify.

So to start off the list I have three candidates that could not be more different but I think share in the top 5% salable rank in their respective categories.

Tanyana
Blue water cruiser. Seems to be rare but highly respected by our very own Robert Perry.

Catalina 30
Probably more of this boat on the water than any other. I have a broker near me that always seems to be able to sell whatever he gets his hands on. Takes about half a year.

Pearson Commander
Nice shape, not expensive and seems to be popular especially in the Annapolis region.

What boats do you find that buyers compete for and do not last long even in today's down market.


----------



## jameso (Dec 5, 2011)

Hinckleys were down a bit, late last year, but have recovered some. My guess we missed the "boat" on some great older yachts. Would be interesting to do a web search of your" if only" boats, and keep tabs on them for three years or so


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

davidpm said:


> Catalina 30
> Probably more of this boat on the water than any other. I have a broker near me that always seems to be able to sell whatever he gets his hands on. Takes about half a year.


Good for your broker. I have friends that are trying for 2 years now to unload their Catalina 30. No such luck.

I don't think their boat is bad or unrealistically priced but there are just so damned many of them that buyers always seem to find another one, just slightly better or cheaper.


----------



## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

David,

the investment grade boats will be those that do not appear in any adverts. They get sold to friends.


----------



## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Interesting thread, I would recommend that some pictures should be posted of the aforementioned crafts... Noobs, such as myself aren't always familiar with some of the boats mentioned.


----------



## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Good for your broker. I have friends that are trying for 2 years now to unload their Catalina 30. No such luck.
> 
> I don't think their boat is bad or unrealistically priced but there are just so damned many of them that buyers always seem to find another one, just slightly better or cheaper.


you said it. if they want to sell it they need to make it better or cheaper. if they have not sold in two years, bottom line, they are asking to much


----------



## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

racing dingys and late model under 30' racers are the easiest to sell. most go by word of mouth


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

David- 
" I tried to find one and interestingly none were available on YachtWorld. "
I've noticed a funny thing about Yachtworld. Over the years, year in and year out, sometimes there are four or six or eight of a certain boat, and then for six months there will be none of that same boat. Dunno why, but sometimes "every" boat of a certain model will be up for sale at the same time, and then there's none of them to be found at all. I think the used-boat market may just be too small, too frgamented by different low production runs, to make anything of this.
Especially when you figure the wide price spreads, and the (let's face it) blatant lies about condition and needs in the used boat market. Like the children of Lake Wobegon, _every _used boat is way above average. Ahuh.

I'd think the boat market parallels the real estate market and the retail economy in general in some ways. That is, there's more profit (percent, not just gross) to be made by dealing with the high-priced goods. By all means buy a depressed item, but someone out there will have a "must sell" Hinckley that will make a better investment than a "must sell" Pearson 26. The P26 will flip faster, sure, but the H will be sold to someone who isn't going to argue as much about the last thousand dollars.


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

davidpm said:


> Just for fun I did a search on Jeff_H's posts back to the beginning as he typically comments on the "which boat should I buy" threads. He mentioned that the Tayana 37 would be his first choice for a 50,000 world cruiser. I tried to find one and interestingly none were available on YachtWorld. Only a couple were available elsewhere. So I'm thinking that this boat may qualify.
> 
> Tanyana
> Blue water cruiser. Seems to be rare but highly respected by our very own Robert Perry.


A $50K Ty37 is probably going to be 'beater' offered in a 'fire sale'. Expect to pay $80-100+ for a decent one and with current 'equipment', etc. 
And yes, 'good' Tayanas (all the models) are usually sold quite rapidly through the 'Tayana Owners Group' (a google group) or privately, etc. ... usually the 'worn out beaters' are offered through 'brokerage'.


----------



## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

I wouldn't expect to see more "investment grade" boats than I would expect to see investment grade cars, or RV's.

They are basically a depreciating asset, only a few well build ones, would hold value enough to appreciate through a market swing.


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

OK, Thanks for the general comments. Very interesting.
Back to the topic. Which specific models and years do you consider among the top 5% most likely to sell fast for a good price?


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Good for your broker. I have friends that are trying for 2 years now to unload their Catalina 30. No such luck.
> 
> I don't think their boat is bad or unrealistically priced but there are just so damned many of them that buyers always seem to find another one, just slightly better or cheaper.


Just last month a 1990 Catalina 30 sold for 29,900 and another Catalina 30 I think '86 in super shape sold for maybe 26,000

What is the year condition, and price of your friends boat. Do you have listing link? Maybe it is a location thing.


----------



## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> I wouldn't expect to see more "investment grade" boats than I would expect to see investment grade cars, or RV's.
> 
> They are basically a depreciating asset, only a few well build ones, would hold value enough to appreciate through a market swing.


According to the cable TV show Chasing Classic Cars, there are some cars that could make a profit if sold when they are 'hot'.

I would think it is possible that there are some boats that would have enough following that their price would be supported out of proportion to its initial cost. In reality I don't think it happens to any great degree b/c most people just want to find the best value to get them 'out there'.


----------



## olddog60 (Oct 20, 2011)

I have been looking for a nice boat that is Blue water ready for six months. Seems to me most that I liked are over priced and still on the market. My opinion is those that are well kept under 100K and over 225K are selling. The others that have been neglected and just sitting at the dock are not selling, a few I never even boarded. I just made my purchase at 167K. But boats in that range that are well kept are few and far between.


----------



## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

davidpm said:


> OK, Thanks for the general comments. Very interesting.
> Back to the topic. Which specific models and years do you consider among the top 5% most likely to sell fast for a good price?


I'd say those top tier boats that have been kept bristol or kept in freshwater with the builder still around and viable.

Hinkley and Pacific Seacraft come to mind...never mind that hiccup with PSC


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

davidpm said:


> Just last month a 1990 Catalina 30 sold for 29,900 and another Catalina 30 I think '86 in super shape sold for maybe 26,000
> 
> What is the year condition, and price of your friends boat. Do you have listing link? Maybe it is a location thing.


I think it is from about 1980 (maybe 1978?) and last time I talked to them, they said they are asking 12K. I have been on the boat and I would not call it 'super shape' but everything works (reasonable sails, well-running diesel, good canvas etc). No super fancy-schmancy electronics, but GPS, VHF, depth sounder, ...

Location is upper Chesapeake. I am not sure where/how they are listing it.

Pretty much your run-of-the-mill Catalina 30. That may well be the problem, but I just wanted to contradict the opinion that a Catalina 30 basically sells itself, or that it is an 'investment grade' boat. (our friend paid a lot more for the boat than what they want to sell it for, and poured in a lot of money in repair in the last couple years).


----------



## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

LandLocked66c said:


> Interesting thread, I would recommend that some pictures should be posted of the aforementioned crafts... Noobs, such as myself aren't always familiar with some of the boats mentioned.


When someone references a boat I've never heard of I head to yachtworld.com (also includes interior pics) or Google.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

I've owned my Tayana 37 for 16 years. Never thought of it as "investment grade", but it does have a solid pedigree, an excellent owners group and has all the characteristics of a a great offshore cruising boat for this price range. As JeffH mentioned, the goods one go for a decent price and change hands quickly and a bit quietly. Nice ones are easy to sell for the above reasons. I still think the T37 offers a lot of bang for the buck. It would be a wise long term investment for your sailing/cruising plans. On a final note, the dividends of owning this craft are priceless....


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Take a boat like a Morris and without spending a huge amount of money annually it will not be all that desirable a boat in 10 years


----------



## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

A little off topic, but, I enjoy a good rant now and again.

Part of the problem with boats that never sell is.... ****e brokers.

Yes, there are some good brokers. However, many never return calls, even for a listing.

I tried three times to look at a Pearson 31 on Fisher's Island NY. I even waited by the dock one day but the broker told me he was busy getting ready for an offshore race. His tone implied that I should understand...after all, he was getting ready for the bluewaterbullshitreggada and had lots to do, maybe because I'm a sailor I would encourage this type of poor customer service.
There is more to this story but you don't want to hear it.

I would encourage anyone trying to sell a boat next season to take your listing price and;
Lose the broker.
Deduct the commission.
Deduct winter storage.
Lop off the other ten to twenty percent that you would be willing to take off after negotiation.
Put her on Craiglist and see what happens.

Yea, you will get a few tire kickers, scammers and weirdos but you seem like a smart enough individual to avoid any real pitfalls.

Example: You have a twenty thousand dollar boat to unload but you know you will take 17K. The broker is getting 2K. List it for 15K and move the darn thing. 

At least you know that you will be returning all the phone calls and emails and the buyer is getting the right info. You have no clue what the broker is doing.

I can show you several Yachtworld.com listings that have photo's that in NO WAY represent the vessel that is being sold. Sometimes it's not even the right boat!


----------



## jameso (Dec 5, 2011)

I wouldn't expect to see more "investment grade" boats than I would expect to see investment grade cars, or RV's

there are investment grade autos, don't know about the RV market however


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

olddog60 said:


> I have been looking for a nice boat that is Blue water ready for six months. Seems to me most that I liked are over priced and still on the market. My opinion is those that are well kept under 100K and over 225K are selling. The others that have been neglected and just sitting at the dock are not selling, a few I never even boarded. I just made my purchase at 167K. But boats in that range that are well kept are few and far between.


Congratulations
What did you get?


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

night0wl said:


> I'd say those top tier boats that have been kept bristol or kept in freshwater with the builder still around and viable.
> 
> Hinkley and Pacific Seacraft come to mind...never mind that hiccup with PSC


What hiccup?


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I think it is from about 1980 (maybe 1978?) and last time I talked to them, they said they are asking 12K. I have been on the boat and I would not call it 'super shape' but everything works (reasonable sails, well-running diesel, good canvas etc). No super fancy-schmancy electronics, but GPS, VHF, depth sounder, ...


Seems like a fair enough price.
Maybe it is regional thing.
At the end of the day it is supply and demand.
Maybe your area just has so many of these boats the supply exceeds the demand.
Here in CT they seem to be selling.


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

OK we have Hinkely and Pacific Seacraft what else do you have.


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

tommays said:


> Take a boat like a Morris and without spending a huge amount of money annually it will not be all that desirable a boat in 10 years


Why?


----------



## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

davidpm said:


> What hiccup?


They went bankrupt! But they're back now, but based out of the Carolinas rather than California.


----------



## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

davidpm said:


> Why?


Lots of systems, lots of teak/intricate brightwork. If you dont keep up with that, the cost of deferred maintenance and damage repair can easily eat up the boat till the value is salvage alone (parts and materials).


----------



## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

I would say that most Sabre's hold their value VERY well.

Barry


----------



## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

What people 'ask' for their boat is irrelevant, as well as NADA or ABOS, all that matters is what they actually sell for (available on the back end of some listers), and while depreciation is usually around 10% per year most boats tend to have a price floor of some kind. If we are talking about super high end vessels, the owner probably doesn't have to sell, so can 'wait it out' even while holding a deprecating asset.
I guess the bottom line is that how much would you invest in a depreciating asset, when the current sales cycle is around 12-18 months knowing you have ins./slip/maintenance/etc etc and hope to recoup you investment(and hopefully gain)? Id call it one in 1000.


----------



## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

the exception to the rule may be a bristol Chris-Craft old school wooden, but then we are delving into the dark side.
or maybe even a perry '41 offshore cheoy lee, but even as a captain you would have to hire someone full-time to handle the teak...lol


----------



## olddog60 (Oct 20, 2011)

olddog60 said:


> I have been looking for a nice boat that is Blue water ready for six months. Seems to me most that I liked are over priced and still on the market. My opinion is those that are well kept under 100K and over 225K are selling. The others that have been neglected and just sitting at the dock are not selling, a few I never even boarded. I just made my purchase at 167K. But boats in that range that are well kept are few and far between.


This is the one. She was very well kept and showed nicely. The owner took great care of her.

2003 Beneteau 42 CC Oceanis sailboat for sale in Texas


----------



## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

davidpm said:


> I tried to find one and interestingly none were available on YachtWorld. Only a couple were available elsewhere. So I'm thinking that this boat may qualify.


I just did a quick search on Yachtworld and I counted 40 Tayana 37's for sale. Probably some doubleup, but their are plenty on the market, ranging in price from USD35,000 to USD139,000.

Two years ago I almost bought a Tayana 37 and I see today that at least one that was advertised on market in Jan 10 is still being advertised today. The one I was interested in had been on the market for at least three years.

Ilenart


----------



## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

olddog60 said:


> This is the one. She was very well kept and showed nicely. The owner took great care of her.
> 
> 2003 Beneteau 42 CC Oceanis sailboat for sale in Texas


Is that really a "blue water" boat? Being serious, not trying to ruffle feathers...


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

davidpm said:


> Why?


Look on the Morris sight at the used Morris boats and read the list of stuff done to keep the boats value and look how many 15 to 20 year old Morris boats have had HUGE refits

There still great boats BUT like a rolls royce it cost a bunch of money to keep them


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Investment grade? Are we talking "blue chip" investment, Berkshire Hathaway grade investment or penny stocks? Short term or long term?

Personally, I like to diversify my portfolio, and dollar cost average when possible. 

As ugly as this answer is, I think my pick for a blue chip cruiser is the Mac 26M. Easy to buy, easy to sell, minimal storage and maintenance costs, seem to hold value well.

Luckily, I don't buy blue chips. I like long shot penny stocks. When you get under 20' and over 20 years in age, THAT is when you can start to see some serious value. Entry level boats at the bottom of their depreciation curve, boats that don't require months or years to sell and deals that are conditional on survey. Here's my thinking:
Let's say you've got $10K burning a hole in your pocket and you decide to "invest" in sailboats. You could buy a Catalina 27, a Grampian 30, an O'day 28, basically any of the mid-size UNACs (Universal North American Cruiser).
You could likely maybe sell it in a couple of years for what you pay for it, but by the time you deduct slippage and maintenance and winter storage, you probably take a $3-4K or more loss. Not bad to enjoy the boat for a couple of years, but it is still a loss.

Now, take that same $10K, and buy 6- 8 craigslist/yard sale/by-the-road daysailers. In the fall. 30 year old Lasers, Nordica 16s, Hobies, Sunfish, West Wight Potters, Compacs, Sirens etc. Small, fun, cute boats. Park 'em in your backyard, tarp 'em, and ignore 'em until spring. April 1, start cetol-ing (yeah, I hate the stuff, but it's quick, cheap and we're looking for max return, right) polishing and shining, paint the trailers (fenders and wheels at least)
Keep one for yourself, your kids or your grandkids, and put the rest on the market, marked up 15% over what you paid. Your 10K+ comes back in a month or so, and it comes back in CASH- because you're not taking checks for these little boats, right? Now, I'm not gonna tell you what to do with that big sum of cash income, because it would be wrong to suggest that you NOT report it, but ...


----------



## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Different Beneteau series*



LandLocked66c said:


> Is that really a "blue water" boat? Being serious, not trying to ruffle feathers...


I am sure the buyer will defend his choice which is natural so let me do it first. Beneteau make a number of series of boats for different purposes - racing to cruising with most of their boats in the middle somewhere. The Oceanis series is designed for bluewater. Not particularly my style but I think they are up for it. Saw a few of them at various islands in the South Pacific - probably as many of them as any other manufacturer.

Anecdotally, we met a Kiwi at a marina in Conneticut a few years ago who bought one of these to take his family (two very young children) off cruising. He had been a semi-professional Mini-transat racer (France to Brazil in your $150,000 22-footer) and a custom boat builder so knew his stuff. He said the Beneteau was not the best offshore boat there was, but the best one that he could afford and trusted it enough to take the family - they were off to Europe from CT and eventually to NZ.


----------



## olddog60 (Oct 20, 2011)

LandLocked66c said:


> Is that really a "blue water" boat? Being serious, not trying to ruffle feathers...


Good try. I am not getting into this discussion. There is more than enough on this site already.


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Is it about selling fast (afordable popular models) or holding value over 10 years (well built and in limited supply)?

Catalina 30s sell fast in part because they are reasonable and folks know the brand. That helps. But it's not everything.

My last 2 boats held ~ 110% value after 10 years each. I expect the PDQ to do as well. But that doesn't make them the fastest to sell. Quality boats require the right buyer, and there are always a few. If there is a secret it is to buy quailty used boats and maintain them. Don't let them go just before selling them; a years neglect can look like 10 years neglect and raises questions.


----------



## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

pdqaltair said:


> Is it about selling fast (afordable popular models) or holding value over 10 years (well built and in limited supply)?
> 
> Catalina 30s sell fast in part because they are reasonable and folks know the brand. That helps. But it's not everything.
> 
> My last 2 boats held ~ 110% value after 10 years each. I expect the PDQ to do as well. But that doesn't make them the fastest to sell. Quality boats require the right buyer, and there are always a few. If there is a secret it is to buy quailty used boats and maintain them. Don't let them go just before selling them; a years neglect can look like 10 years neglect and raises questions.


I think you are on target. However, from an "investment" point of view one must take into consideration the costs of maintenance and what might be called upgrades.

If one buys a boat for 100K and over the years adds new sails, rigging, electronics, upholstery, and assorted doohickeys....? Selling a 100K boat with 30K in stuff added over the years for 110K is not a good "investment".

It is a good return on the costs of a lifestyle.

I paid 11K for my last boat. Put about 3K into rigging, roller furling and a new/used jib. Lots of sweat equity into doing most of my own maintenance. I sold it 11 years later for 7.5K.

Since it was my primary summer vacation spot I figure I saved a small fortune in Block Island/Newport/Long Island hotels and restaurant $$$. The view from my Noank mooring is absolutely priceless.

In my book, I made money. A reasonably sane person would think I was one slice short of a loaf.


----------



## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

killarney_sailor said:


> I am sure the buyer will defend his choice which is natural so let me do it first. Beneteau make a number of series of boats for different purposes - racing to cruising with most of their boats in the middle somewhere. The Oceanis series is designed for bluewater. Not particularly my style but I think they are up for it. Saw a few of them at various islands in the South Pacific - probably as many of them as any other manufacturer.
> 
> Anecdotally, we met a Kiwi at a marina in Conneticut a few years ago who bought one of these to take his family (two very young children) off cruising. He had been a semi-professional Mini-transat racer (France to Brazil in your $150,000 22-footer) and a custom boat builder so knew his stuff. He said the Beneteau was not the best offshore boat there was, but the best one that he could afford and trusted it enough to take the family - they were off to Europe from CT and eventually to NZ.


Thank you, this is what I was looking for. With all the talk of "production vs. whatever...." sometimes decent boats get disregarded.



olddog60 said:


> Good try. I am not getting into this discussion. There is more than enough on this site already.


I was trying to be tactful and not trying to start another one of "those" debates. It is a very nice looking boat!


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

pdqaltair said:


> Is it about selling fast (afordable popular models) or holding value over 10 years (well built and in limited supply)?
> 
> Catalina 30s sell fast in part because they are reasonable and folks know the brand. That helps. But it's not everything.
> 
> My last 2 boats held ~ 110% value after 10 years each. I expect the PDQ to do as well. But that doesn't make them the fastest to sell. Quality boats require the right buyer, and there are always a few. If there is a secret it is to buy quailty used boats and maintain them. Don't let them go just before selling them; a years neglect can look like 10 years neglect and raises questions.


What were those last two boats and what years did they sell in?


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*PRindle 18-2 and Stiletto 27*



davidpm said:


> What were those last two boats and what years did they sell in?


1980 Prindle. Stopped making them and the price of performance cats went WAY up. ~1992

1981 Stiletto. Kevlar honeycomb and way ahead of its time. Untamed, sort of like owning an old Corvette. ~2008


----------



## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

olddog60 said:


> This is the one. She was very well kept and showed nicely. The owner took great care of her.
> 
> 2003 Beneteau 42 CC Oceanis sailboat for sale in Texas


I think the 42CC is a great boat, especially the 3 cabin version. I toured one on the way back from this year's Mac, and I thought it was fantastic. Lots of boat for a 42, almost unbelievable.


----------



## GeorgeDog (Mar 11, 2010)

Hinckley: 
Investment in lifestyle...check!
Financial investment...fail.

I love my boat but she is expensive to maintain without much chance of ever getting a dime back. If I ever sell her I'd be thrilled to get what we paid for her (but I wouldn't count on it).

Chris


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

GeorgeDog said:


> Hinckley:
> Investment in lifestyle...check!
> Financial investment...fail.
> 
> ...


But very pretty.

Is the expensive to maintain only because of all the external teak?
Or is there some other money pit that other boats don't have.


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Ilenart said:


> I just did a quick search on Yachtworld and I counted 40 Tayana 37's for sale. Probably some doubleup, but their are plenty on the market, ranging in price from USD35,000 to USD139,000.
> 
> Two years ago I almost bought a Tayana 37 and I see today that at least one that was advertised on market in Jan 10 is still being advertised today. The one I was interested in had been on the market for at least three years.
> 
> Ilenart


So there goes my theory.

But maybe their are other boats that hold their value because of being in short supply.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

tommays said:


> Take a boat like a Morris and without spending a huge amount of money annually it will not be all that desirable a boat in 10 years


Huh?

Many of the older Morris boats sell for more now than they did new. Same as an older Hinckley. My aunt & uncle sold their Pilot 35 in the 90's for more than they paid and they commissioned it new... There are not many other brands I know of that can say that.

My dad is much smarter than me, he collects antique cars. He recently sold a Porsche 356 for a very nice six figure net profit...... Some of his cars have gone up in value at 10-15% per year.. He has sold ten of them in the last three years and netted a very nice addition to his retirement fund. I'll never be able to do that with boats.. I've sold three boats for more than I paid but when I take the upgrades out of it I lost money every time...


----------



## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> Huh?
> 
> Many of the older Morris boats sell for more now than they did new.


I think he might be saying that Morris is a very expensive boat that is also very high maintenance. We have an M-42 on our dock, and it is without a doubt one of the sweetest most gorgeous boats in the most superb condition I have ever seen. However, I wouldn't want to be in charge of maintaining that boat, as it appears to me that just keeping up with the varnish would be a full time job. The boat is a $700,000 42 foot day sailor.


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> Huh?
> 
> Many of the older Morris boats sell for more now than they did new. Same as an older Hinckley. My aunt & uncle sold their Pilot 35 in the 90's for more than they paid and they commissioned it new... There are not many other brands I know of that can say that.
> 
> My dad is much smarter than me, he collects antique cars. He recently sold a Porsche 356 for a very nice six figure net profit...... Some of his cars have gone up in value at 10-15% per year.. He has sold ten of them in the last three years and netted a very nice addition to his retirement fund. I'll never be able to do that with boats.. I've sold three boats for more than I paid but when I take the upgrades out of it I lost money every time...


The point is the amount of TIME and MONEY required to keep the "investments" market value

Most of the people i know with boats like that spend the MONEY as they do not tend to have the TIME

What % per year of value would you say a Morris owner spends on the boat ?


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

RobGallagher said:


> In my book, I made money. A reasonably sane person would think I was one slice short of a loaf.


Since it only cost you less than 600 per year I think you were ahead of the game too.
There was a thing about investing in beer a few years ago.
Take a thousand dollars, buy beer, drink it.
Return the bottles for the 5 cents each.
Based on the average losses of the stock market that year you would have been money ahead.

What boat did you sell?


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

tommays said:


> The point is the amount of TIME and MONEY required to keep the "investments" market value
> 
> Most of the people i know with boats like that spend the MONEY as they do not tend to have the TIME
> 
> What % per year of value would you say a Morris owner spends on the boat ?


Just to be clear all this talk about upkeep it referring to the external teak.
Nothing else is difference maintenance wise between a Morris and a Hunter.
Yes??


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

When i read a Morris listing most seem to go like

is a beautiful example of this popular design and has been kept in "like-new" condition by her meticulous owner while being sailed seasonally and stored in a heated building.

Never seen to many other boast kept that way


----------



## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

davidpm said:


> Just to be clear all this talk about upkeep it referring to the external teak.
> Nothing else is difference maintenance wise between a Morris and a Hunter.
> Yes??


No,

the access to critical systems is available on the Morris, many Hunters will require the dismantling or destruction of interior components. Hunter...try and replace the water lines. Morris uses races/raceways/mouse holes and always leaves spare pull lines when built.

Morris interiors are real wood, not veneer. They will require a different quality and cleaner to maintain. Owners are usually more careful in the shindigs they throw to minimize cleanup. I have never been asked to remove my shoes, or set open containers down on the dock to board on a Hunter (even my own, hahaha). I have on Morris and Oyster.

Adding things to Morris woodwork, ie a stereo, will require more expense and craftsmanship...IF you want it to look like it came with the boat. Same with bungs and fasteners. One Linda I worked on had all the matching bung's grain align...that level of detail is pretty awesome.

The only detail I have seen more beautiful than Morris...is that of Tiffany and Randy Cockrell of Tiffany's Yachts - their woodwork is truly art. When I worked on one of their boats, I had booties and clean white overalls, with drop cloths down ANYWHERE I was working and pads with which to lay tools down, or in case a part was dropped...

Morris details are specific to the boat, you can contact the builder for specifics of almost any part, system, hose, etc....Pacific Seacraft used to be that way, and in talking to the new owner when he took over, will be that way again, if they aren't.

Morris used to build boats, such that ANY component could be removed either through a hatch or the companionway. Not sure of their newer construction.

It is a different world with Morris Yachts...even the 28' Linda....


----------



## DoubleEnder (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm a long time Morris owner. Here are the facts as I've experenced them. I bought my 26' Frances in 1984 for $27K used. (1980 model). I sold it last year for a tic under $50K Did I keep it in good shape?...you bet. Did it rise with the tide when Morris went further upscale...you bet. Would I do it again...you bet.

I look at them as a good investment...in beauty...and sailing pleasure! 

What more can I really ask for?


----------



## GeorgeDog (Mar 11, 2010)

davidpm said:


> But very pretty.
> 
> Is the expensive to maintain only because of all the external teak?
> Or is there some other money pit that other boats don't have.


That's a good question. I'd say it is mostly the same expenses as any other boat for the most part. But if you have the Hinckley yard doing the teak, cove stripes, upgrades, and etceteras the costs are high. We tend to address things quickly and replace with high quality which adds to the cost. But all-in-all I guess is mostly the same things that every boat needs.


----------



## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

*Definition of an investment grade boat...*

...is someone willing to pay more than what you invested.


----------



## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

With the market saturated, and boats being practically given away, I don't think any boat can be called an investment. The money you save living aboard her, traveling and the way it drastically reduces your cost of living while doing so, and the security it gives you by insulating you from what is happening on land, is the real investment.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"With the market saturated, and boats being practically given away, I don't think any boat can be called an investment."
I'd have to disagree and say that when the market is saturated and at its worst--that's the time when almost any boat IS an investement. Buy low, sell high. Buy at the bottom, and you've got a best chance of selling for a profit.
Unless you assume we're nowhere near the bottom yet, and one ferverently hopes we're already there.


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Brent Swain said:


> With the market saturated, and boats being practically given away, I don't think any boat can be called an investment.


Then why did certain brands not drop in value during the down turn? More than a few held value better than the Dow. That is the point of the thread. Not all boats are over-produced.

Perhaps other investments show a better gain. But bonds don't go to the weather for beans. It's a tough comparison; I can't say that my portfolio is "fun", but I don't have to paint it every other year either.


----------

