# Sailing without heeling



## zperson (Jul 18, 2003)

I made a mistake in my last post, so I didin''t find what I was looking for.

My new first mate enjoys being on the water, but can''t stand heeling beyond five degrees. I need some reccomendations on a stiff monohull, 27-32 feet that is quite easy to sail flat. My inclination is that a fractional rig would be most suited for this because it is so easy to bleed the main, but I could be wrong.

Thank you


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## Irwin32 (Jul 1, 2001)

5 degress ain''t much - does it have to be a mono hull?


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## Denr (Feb 7, 2001)

Your options are so limited with the restriction of 5 degrees. A better tack (pun intended) is to calmly explain the dynamics of a sailboat and help her get over the fear that a lot of new sailors have. Once you''ve explained that you cannot tip the boat over she should feel more confident. A heavy slug of a sloop is not going to be fast or fun to sail. Wrap your arms around your new first make, dance with her in the moon light on the deck and help her through this phase. 
Mr. Sensitive denr


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## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

your options as I under stand them are:

1.) Get a stiff boat such as a Gozzard (was sailing one last weekend, nice boats, if a bit on the slow side) and only sail down wind, or in winds under 7 knots. 

2.) Get a multi. 

or 

3.) (and I prefer this one) go with denr''s suggestion, and explain boats to them, and help them get used to healing. 

-- James


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Actually, I don''t think that you have an option except explaining the physics. Even a Catamarran will heel 5 degrees in a blow. There are ways of reducing heel but even then that might mean the difference between a 15 degree heel and a 10 degree heel. (Most cars will lean more than 5 degrees in a turn.)

Jeff


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## pblais (Jul 19, 2002)

The admiral on my boat says 15 degrees is the limit. At 5 degress you''ll always be at the dock. 

I think the real problem that folks have with heeling is the shifting back and forth when combined with up and down pitching. A heavier, longer boat won''t be heeeling back and forth so much. 

Heeling when stable is not really all that hard to get used to. Even my mom (73 years old) who is deathly afraid of the water in general and hates heeling more than the admiral does can handle 15 degrees if it is a smooth ride in a calm sea. Add 3 ft waves and all bets are off.

I also notice the admiral handles the heeling better than when we started to sail. We had a really bad heeling expeience of 55 degrees on a 22 ft boat and since then the admiral has been very shy when it comes to heeling. On our heavy 33 ft boat she has handled it all very well. At about 30 ft the heeling is a lot smoother than it is in a small dinghy. Sometimes bigger is better. If the first mate won''t sail then the trip is a problem or at least when you get back to port it is.


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## sadie14 (Feb 5, 2003)

Please try to explain what, exactly, the problem really is. Just saying she doesn''t like heeling doesn''t explain the issue. 

Does she think the boat will tip? 
Does she get seasick? 
Is she just a princess? 

You won''t solve the problem until you understand the exact issue or issues.


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## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

The first time the Admiral and I went sailing, she thought the boat was going to tip over as it started to heel. I tried explaining the physics involved, and how modern sailboat designs incorporate the phenomenom of heeling to deal with increasing wind speed. At first, she was not convinced.

Since she didn''t take my word for it, I decided to hire a sailing instructor who took us out on our boat. He not only showed us how to anchor, moor and dock, but he also pointed out how a sailboat functions - which means it MUST heel in order to sail when the wind comes from any direction except from the rear or within about 45 degrees ahead (in which case the boat can''t sail).

At one point, he had us sailing on a broad reach with about 15 knot winds apparent. The boat was heeled over about 20 degrees when he exclaimed, "Now THIS is sailing!" From that time on, the Admiral doesn''t mind heeling, even if the lee-side rail gets awash as a result of an occasional wave. However, she and I still have problems dealing with excessive weather helm. I''m learning to reduce it by moving the traveler leeward and/or flatten the main and/or reefing the main. Also, since tuning the standing rigging, I''ve noticed that both sails can be set flatter than before, which has helped reduce weather helm, and has increased the boat''s speed nearer to its theoretical hull speed.

My advice - Hire an instructor, or have her take some sailing lessons. Most sailing schools have gift certificates. ;^)

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


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## pblais (Jul 19, 2002)

I agree with 928gfrenzy. telling the Admiral is not the same as a sailing instructor telling the Admiral.

It''s also just a great idea to make sure both crew and command understand the operation of the vessle. It''s safer and understanding clears up a lot of problems with moral and crew relations.

We spent a lot on lessons and without them i would be sailing alone.


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## dameware (Jul 21, 2003)

Am I missing something here?

The wife is comfortable with the heeling effect of a sailboat ONLY after a paid, professional sailing instructor says so, when nothing has changed in any way on the boat other than the person announcing that everything is OK? 

Logic would dictate that since the instructor has done nothing more than reaffirm what has (probably) already been said by the husband, who has a good understand of how sailboats function, the wife would then have faith in the husband and ensuing explanations concerning the boat.

Interesting… Maybe there should be some sort of affordable manual written by a professional sailing instructor covering all possible unusual, uncomfortable and potentially frightening situations on a sailboat to ensure the uninitiated that everything is going to be OK. 

Honey, are you reading this…???


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## pblais (Jul 19, 2002)

You seem to think this is about logic<g>.

It''s about what works.


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## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

Dameware:
It might make sense to you if you consider the following as an example. Let''s suppose you have a pain in your chest, so you go to the hospital, where a nurse takes you pulse and temp. He/she then tells you "you''re ok, as it''s only heartburn." Are you going to take the nurse''s word for it? Wouldn''t you rather have a doctor check on you before going home?

I''m the nurse, the instructor was the doctor. ;^)

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


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## sadie14 (Feb 5, 2003)

dameware,

Depends on the teaching abilities of the teacher...husbands are not always the best teachers. That is why courses like womanship were created. 

The point is to get the lady some instruction and understanding of the dynamics, not to turn this into a sexist argument.


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## 7470 (Jul 22, 2001)

How many of you have had the rail down, and told anyone uncomfortable to "suck-it-up" or some equally macho stupidity?

15 degrees of heel is more than you need unless you are going around the buoys for the Americas Cup, or something similar.

If you ever want to get away for more than an afternoon - that is do you want to cruise? - you had better find a way to make EVERYONE comfortable. Or you will be looking at cruising guides in the family room for a long time.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

15 Degrees is Macho Stupidity? Sorry that is a NORMAL crusing heel for a boat beating the wind. And if you sit back and enjoy it for a few mins you will see just how relaxed that angle is. Yes,I have had my rail in the water. I have been knocked down twice when I was hit by a micro burst I have but .25 sec to prepare for. Is that fun..NO, (well looking back it was alittle but I wouldn''t want to do it again just for the thrills. The point of me even telling you about the knock down is that the boat righted herself. There was very limited danger, about as much as driving out to the lake in the first place. So take a look at 15 degrees again and see that it''s FUN and just the right heel for the fastest sail.


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## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

My family (crew) doesn''t get uncomfortable till the heel goes over 20 degrees. As previously mentioned, 15 degrees is not only comfortable, but it''s quite enjoyable, so long as the weather helm can be kept under control. ;^)

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi, 
Actually heel above 15 degrees slows the boat down. So if you get above that it''s a good rule of thumb to start reefing..


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## doubleplay (Nov 9, 2001)

Every boat has a different angle of heel before you start taking measures to depower your sail plan.
Most of the modern designs have wide body canoe shape so their initial heel is more but they start getting stiffer after a certain degree of heel.
It is generally not the heel that makes the boat slower but the rudder angle and the drag it creates unless you start burying the rail and start creating even more drag.If you sail a boat long enough you will get into situations that even with the reduced sail plan your boat will be heeling more than 20 or 25 deegrees..if you are beating with strong winds.
Any crewmember,spouse or guest has to be explained that this is the law of physics and sailboats HEEL... sometimes more than it feels confortable.
However if they can not perform or live with that fact and feel scared and uncomfortable all the time I suggest you look at other options...like sailing at light wind days and unfortunately motor a lot...
Good Luck..
A.A
S/V DoublePlay
Dehler 36


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I don''t know where you get the idea that 15 degrees is "more than you need unless you are going around the buoys for the Americas Cup". Depending on the design, heel angles of 20 or more degrees can be necessary to even achieve a reasonable preformance under certain conditions such as clawing off a lee shore in a breeze in a CCA era boat. Modern boats are faster being sailed flatter but even there 10 to 15 degrees is pretty much the norm in any breeze at all. There is nothing macho about over heeling a boat but I do think that setting arbitrary heel angles by based on gender stereotypes does nothing very good for either gender. 

In my wife''s case, she starts getting nervous when our heel angle approaches 35 to 40 degrees which rarely occurs except in puffs when close to a beam reach under spinacker. I suspect that she starts to get nervous at that heel angle because our old boat would stall the rudder at those heel angles. 

In this day and age, it makes much more sense to try to talk through the physics of the circumstance and then as much as possible try to honor the comfort level of the person who is sailing with you. Over time even the most timid sailor usually gets used to increasingly sharper heel angles. 

Jeff


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## obiec (Sep 26, 2001)

find a new mate


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## geohan (Mar 8, 2000)

You have already heard that a sailboat must heel more than 5 degrees to sail properly. That''s just the natural way of a sailboat. What can be done is to reduce the anxiety of heeling. IMO much of the angst stems from a sense of helplessness and a lack of knowledge about what is going to happen. On our boat we have found that showing the person how heeling can be reduced by easing the mainsheet, and then giving them control of the mainsheet quickly lessens their fear. The feedback of the effect is so immediate and certain they may even begin to experiment and thereby learn of what to expect. At this point the anxiety dimimishes and the remaining issue resolves to one of comfort and convenience, ie. at 25+ degrees of heel don''t expect any more than peanutbutter sandwiches for lunch!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

buy a power boat sail boats at the dock heal if a strong wind blows and you will get cought at sea if you ever leave the dock


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## Paiscool (Dec 3, 2001)

To all you Blowholes that seem to think you know that heeeling is so important,here is an excerpt from this site from people I would consider "experts":
"To me, excessive heel would be something like 30 degrees. Generally speaking, a boat like yours can withstand heeling up to about 15 degrees without developing too much leeway, but beyond that it becomes counterproductive. When a boat heels too much, the sail plan is depowered because it''s essentially presenting less sail area to the wind, and the underwater foils (the keel and rudder) become less efficient because they are presenting less of a profile to the water and tend to stall the more this occurs. Windsurfers aside, most sail plans and most hull appendages are designed to work best with the mast nearly perpendicular to the water''s surface."

Makes sense to me.I meet people every day sailing where I do who seem to feel that putting the rail in the water is necessary for speed.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Putting the rail in the water works on boats designed prior to the sixties. More modern designs get pretty innefficient after about 20 degrees of heel. Your right. Flat is fast in anything but extreme light air.


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## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

Actualy, I belive us "blowholes" were saying that healing isnt dangerous. If you''re going to call names, at least get the acusation to go with it right, blowhole. And on some designs, the rail in the water DOES make it faster. the amount of lean is entirely dependent on the design of the boat. Arbitrary numbers are general guide lines that dont necessarily have anything to do with reality. Thanks.

-- James


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## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

Just out of curiosity, I looked at several boat manufacturer''s photos used in their sales brochures. I found a few showing their boat under-sail, heeled well past 15 degrees, and in at least one photo, the boat''s rail was in the water. (Go to: www.hunterowners.com - then to "Boat Information", then select "31" or "35".)

To me, these photos seem to indicate that the manufacturer''s don''t think sailing their boats at "high heel" angles is a problem.

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Two angles of attack. Do your best to explain physics right up to taking her to a shipyard and examining the keels that weigh as much as a car or two. Work your way up to heeling a bit more each time, it will make you a better sailor to manage the boat this way. If all else fails try a multihull.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

Once again, a 3 year old thread rises from the ashes. The people who started this thread probably have long since divorced, bought that powerboat, moved on to snow skiing, or something else.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Jones...this is about the 10th time you've done this. Can you please check the dates before you bring up threads froj the ashes?? Hint...when you log on, click on the "new posts" link on the top right of the page and you won't miss anything current or drag up the past.


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## SailinJay (Dec 6, 2002)

He's probably just trying to get that rep power off the dime.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Man, I keep getting caught in these old threads. I guess I need to keep get in the habit of looking at the whole thread to see if someone else is dredging up the past. I will say sometimes they reconstitute some information that may be valuable to someone.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

Pig -- No prob. Sometimes these old threads are a blast from the past. Unfortunately, they also show how little there is new under the sun. (Did I say that right?)


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