# Profurl halyard tension



## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

Awhile back we got a Profurl , head sail type . We had it installed by a rigger . He provided no verbal instruction or a manual . We took the boat out and it worked fine , later on I noticed the halyard for the head sail had almost no tension on it . So I did the tighten up, being the old hank on guy that I was I thought you can't really have too much tension on that halyard . Well the Profurl locked up solid . So after I figured that out I went back to barely any tension and it worked fine again . The spar gives the luff the shape it needs , but still it kind of bugs me having almost no tension on the halyard . Am I doing something wrong ?


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## jblumhorst (Apr 14, 2002)

Adjust your halyard tension and forestay tension for the purpose of shaping the sail when you're sailing. Set the halyard tension and forestay tension differently for furling when you're actually operating the furler. 

For when you're sailing, 
adjust halyard tension to move the draft forward and aft. And, BTW, you can have too much halyard tension. When sailing adjust your forestay tension as desired to control the depth of the draft on the headsail 

However, when furling or unfurling, do the following: 
Halyard tension: moderate
Forstay tension: enough to reduce forestay sag

When you leave the furled sail on the furler, loosen the halyard. (Same advice goes for your mainsail outhaul: loosen it when not actually sailing)


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

What model ProFurl?

They have a halyard wrapstop at the top. Go to their website and download a manual. If you bought the unit new, why didn't you get the manual? I know, he didn't give it to you, did you ask?

All you need to do is get the halyard above what I call the Darth Vader top section.

They are completely different than any other furling gear, so Judy's advice while mainly correct may not apply. For example: Halyard tension doesn't work with a ProFurl. Since there is no halyard restrainer at the top of the mast, once the halyard on a ProFurl is up past the Darth Vader, extra tension does nothing. Beware "generic" recommendations.

We have an LCI-32, have had it for 12 years, flawless.


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

What mod . same as yours Stu . Darth Vader , i'm familiar with that . They have changed it on the new mods. but it still does the same thing , stop halyard wrap . Why didn't I get a manual ? At the time I didn't know you got one so no I didn't ask . Thanks for the advice Stu .
Judy on our boat adjusting forestay tension while under way just isn't done , sorry . Also our head sail is a yankee ( were a cutter ) I never thought about adjusting draft with the halyard ,only the sheets . Thanks for the thought Judy .


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

Yet another reason to not use ProFurl. You cannot adjust the halyard tension? WTF, that's worse than the bearings rusting out.


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

aloof said:


> Yet another reason to not use ProFurl. You cannot adjust the halyard tension? WTF, that's worse than the bearings rusting out.


Aloof , you can adjust halyard tension on a ProFurl , like I said in my OP I got it to tight the first time, the other day I saw that I had it to loose. So I don't know where you got the idea you can't adjust . As for the bearings I have heard of them rusting . They are not real easy to get to and remove . I saw a vid on youtube where a guy took his all apart and replaced with ceramic bearings . ProFurl has a cool website , you can download the manuals, so far I've only seen ones that are nomenclature and installation type not operation . They have a Q and A section but it's under construction right now .


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## jblumhorst (Apr 14, 2002)

Stu Jackson said:


> What model ProFurl?
> 
> They have a halyard wrapstop at the top. Go to their website and download a manual. If you bought the unit new, why didn't you get the manual? I know, he didn't give it to you, did you ask?
> 
> ...


Stu, I suspect that the reason you can't adjust luff tension on your Profurl is that the luff of the sail is too long. I recommend that you ask a sailmaker to take a look at it if you want to be able to adjust luff tension.

I am a sailmaker, and our loft has made more than a few thousand headsails for Profurls. The way I dimension the headsails for Profurls, the luff tension is indeed adjustable.

If the headsail's luff is the right length, you can indeed adjust luff tension with a Profurl and most other popular furlers (excpet CDI's) However, if the luff is too long, halyard tension will not be adjustable.

Here are the instructions found in the Profurl manual. Every experienced sailmaker knows how to dimension the sail so that the combination of furler and headsail is fully functional. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The position of the halyard swivel is determined by the luff length after the halyard has been tensioned. You should then have a distance of 5 to 10 cm (2 to 4 ") between the top edge of the halyard swivel and the top end of the extrusions.

CAUTION:
Most sails permanently stretch after being used. Sailmakers should remember this when designing the luff length. DO NOT over tension the halyard swivel or let the halyard swivel go above the top end of the luff extrusions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you can hoist the top swivel higher than that, the luff of your sail is either a) too long due to sailmaker's dimensioning error, or b) stretched due to sailmaker's failure to allow for stretch over time or 3) too long due to owner error.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

What does profurl have to say? We have a profurl for 15 years, and never a problem in that regard. I keep the halyard tensioned enough to be reasonable both sailing and storing it without adjusting for either.


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

I didn't say you couldn't adjust luff tension, I said you couldn't adjust halyard tension.

Once the halyard's up, it's there. I use a line through the tack grommet on the jib to tension the luff.

If you attached the sail's tack directly to the drum, then, yes, you could use the halyard to tension the luff, but there is little room to move the halyard up at the top, just the length of the flat tang between the head of the sail and the ring above the Darth Vader.

The luff of our jib is shorter than the hoist, else it wouldn't work. 

Semantics I'm sure, sorry about any confusion.

I put the sail up, and adjust the luff tension at the tack above the drum. Never have to fuss with the halyard.


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## jblumhorst (Apr 14, 2002)

Aha!!! I think I've got it figured out, Stu.

I think we have been talking about two very different models of ProFurl here.

Your ProFurl has an integrated halyard. Mark's model doesn't - it uses the halyard on the mast.

Mark's Profurl has a top halyard swivel that attaches to the halyard and the head of the sail, and is raised and lowered with the jib/genoa halyard. He can and does adjust halyard tension while sailing.

Mark's Profurl doesn't have anyself contained halyard, and it doesn't have a halyard sheave built into the top fitting.

What mode ProFurl do you have? The ProFurl C260, ProFurls smallest unit, has a self contained "halyard" with a jammer below the drum. Do you have something similar?

There's no flat tang at the top of Mark's furler.... and what's a Darth Vader? Is that what you are calling the sheave cover for the integrated halyard?

Take a look at the cover of the manual for the type he's talking about:
http://www.profurl.com/images/prestations/manuel-de-montage-enrouleurs-manuels-profurl-674.pdf

Here's the type that I suspect you've been describing:
http://www.profurl.com/images/prestations/manuel-de-montage-c260-471.pdf


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Markwesti said:


> Aloof , you can adjust halyard tension on a ProFurl , like I said in my OP I got it to tight the first time, the other day I saw that I had it to loose. So I don't know where you got the idea you can't adjust . As for the bearings I have heard of them rusting . They are not real easy to get to and remove . I saw a vid on youtube where a guy took his all apart and replaced with ceramic bearings . ProFurl has a cool website , you can download the manuals, so far I've only seen ones that are nomenclature and installation type not operation . They have a Q and A section but it's under construction right now .


I don't know, something doesn't sound right with your installation... On my older Profurl units (N-31 long discontinued, and an LC-32, I believe) I've never had any problem increasing or relieving halyard tension...

Without being familiar with what model you have, here's one thing I would check... Unfurl the sail, have someone else take up the halyard tension, while observing closely yourself whether the drum/bottom part of the unit that swivels has any tendency to lift... Most Profurl units have a somewhat funky arrangement of securing the drum, usually using set screws that fit blindly into small holes in the extrusion... If there's any misalignment there, it can create problems... I think this problem is more likely to occur on older units, where the holes in the extrusion become enlarged and allow too much play, and the result can be the drum dropping _downwards_, and then binding... But it's possible you might be having a similar problem in the opposite direction, perhaps?

But that's the first thing I would check, when increasing halyard tension, ideally there should be no lifting of the drum relative to the rest of the unit...


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

Judy,

Please see reply #3 where I stated my model. You actually quoted it in reply #7.

I have an "outside" traditional halyard.

The Darth Vader is the black halyard wrapstop.

There is a flat tang on mine, the bottom of which connects to the top swivel connected to the head of the jib and then the top connects to the halyard. It's different than your link, which shows the halyard directly connected to the top swivel.

All I've been saying is that while one can use the limited range of the halyard to tension the luff, I find using the tack to tension the luff much easier, since I don't have to mess with the halyard. The halyard used to be led aft to the cockpit, but I relocated it to a cleat on the mast. Up and done.



jblumhorst said:


> Aha!!! I think I've got it figured out, Stu.
> 
> I think we have been talking about two very different models of ProFurl here.
> 
> ...


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## jblumhorst (Apr 14, 2002)

Stu Jackson said:


> Judy,
> 
> Please see reply #3 where I stated my model. You actually quoted it in reply #7.
> 
> ...


Here's an excerpt from Stu's Post #3



Stu Jackson said:


> What model ProFurl?
> 
> *They are completely different than any other furling gear, so Judy's advice while mainly correct may not apply*. *For example: Halyard tension doesn't work with a ProFurl.* Since there is no halyard restrainer at the top of the mast, once the halyard on a ProFurl is up past the Darth Vader, extra tension does nothing. *Beware "generic" recommendations*.


I still disagree with the claim that Profurls are completely different from other furlers in the way they operate, that adjusting the halyard tension doesn't "work" with a Profurl, ...

... now I could leave that alone, but....

... then Stu implied that my advice wasn't applicable to Profurlsand warned people against listening to my advice and that folks should "*beware*" of the advice I gave. As a professional sailmaker, I felt compelled to check my facts carefully just in case I was indeed giving bad advice. And if I was wrong, I needed to figure out where I was wrong about ProFurls after all these years in the sailmaking business.

I'm happy to say that I have concluded that I had the facts right, and that I still feel confident in the value of my advice.

So I'm going repeat my opinion, and my advice one last time and move on.

Some folks are of the opinioni that it is not be worth the effort of ever adjusting halyard and luff tension, and I can respect that. Other folks are active trimmers and like to pull strings rather than "set and forget" types, and I can respect that too.

It is a fact, not an opinion, that a single inch of additional halyard adjustment can greatly change the tension on the luff of the sail, which moves the location of the draft in the sail significantly and considerably. Move the draft forward for better acceleration and a wider steering groove, move it aft for pointing, flatwater, and speed.


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

Oh boy , I now wish I never took the stickers off, so now I'm not sure what mod. I have. Actually I'm glad I did as I have a thing about mfgs. putting advertisements on the parts . Our mod . has external halyard and the swivel/ tang and the Darth Vader is the receiver that keeps the tang from rotating . I think JZK has the right Idea , just tight enough, but also for sure it would be beneficial to tune as you go . But if you do the tighten up you must loosen up when furling . Here is a pic . You can see the swivel and the tang , Darth stays at the top .


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Looks as if you have the one with the halyard swivel so there is something wrong if you have to loosen the halyard to furl. usually people have trouble when the halyard is not tight enough and the halyard starts to rap around the forestay


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

Judy,

PEACE. PLease.

I attempted to "backtrack" on my halyard statement by saying that I use the tack line, not the halyard.

I never said you were wrong, I just said beware generics, 'cuz it didn't appear to me that you were being ProFurl - specific. Then I saw YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT and I agree with you.

I still maintain, as I originally posted: "_Since there is no halyard restrainer at the top of the mast, once the halyard on a ProFurl is up past the Darth Vader, extra tension does nothing_."

It does little to nothing, which is why I use the tack. Other furlers have much more "wiggle room" because of the way the head swivel works re the halyard. That's all.

Thanks again for helping me to clarify what I did poorly to begin with.

PEACE


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Stu Jackson said:


> I still maintain, as I originally posted: "_Since there is no halyard restrainer at the top of the mast, once the halyard on a ProFurl is up past the Darth Vader, extra tension does nothing_."
> 
> It does little to nothing, which is why I use the tack. Other furlers have much more "wiggle room" because of the way the head swivel works re the halyard. That's all.


As always, _It Depends..._ 

Some people shorten the length of the tang between the upper swivel and the top hat (that's what I've always called it, instead of Darth Vader ) If that's the case, you're right, it won't take much before the upper swivel butts up against the restrainer/tophat...

If the tang is left closer to the length that Profurl supplies, and everything is adjusted carefully and properly, there can still be considerable "wiggle room" for halyard adjustment... Ideally, you want the ring at the top of the tang to just clear the tophat when the full hoist is reached, but before any real halyard tension is applied...


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

Jon , your set up is correct . I just found out today mine is not , never mind the halyard tension thing . My tang/ ring does not clear the top hat ! Thanks !! P.S. Nice picture .


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## jblumhorst (Apr 14, 2002)

Stu,
PEACE 
Sorry if I got a bit touchy....


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

Judy, thanks.

Jon, Is that a snap shackle up there?!?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Stu Jackson said:


> Jon, Is that a snap shackle up there?!?


Yup, it certainly does look like one...

Fortunately, that's not my pic  I just pulled it off a Google search, it's from The Rigging Company, it seems...

to the OP, even if your tang does not go above the top hat, I'm not sure that's necessarily the source of your problem... If there is sufficient halyard tension, the furler still should work even if it's only the halyard, and not the tang, being restrained - as long as there's not too great a distance between the upper swivel, and the top hat... And, if anything, it should work better with the halyard taut, than loose...

I'd say it might be time to give the rigger who installed it a call, no?


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

Jon's right. However, before you call the rigger and spend $$, drop the jib and make sure the supper swivel, well, uhm, swivels. They are NOPT made to be lubricated or serviced, so once you find out if it runs freely (yes!!!) or binds (crap!), let us know. We can then let you know how to deal with it.


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## captbillc (Jul 31, 2008)

my profurl has a small sheeve fastened to the mast so the halyard comes from the top of the swivel to the sheeve at about a 45 degree up angle. this stops the swivel from swinging. this prevents halyard wraps. from this sheeve the halyard goes up to the sheeve at the top of the mast.


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## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

I'm sorry if this is a bit of a hijack:

For the profurl owners out there, how much space is realistically allowable between the top of the tang and the "top hat".

On our boat, the top of the tang is about 2 in from the bottom of the hat with halyard slack and just kisses the top hat if I really reef on the halyard. Is this reasonably safe as long as I keep the halyard taught when furling or should I figure out a way to add a 2-3in pennant to the tack of the sail....

Novic


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

Hey novic #17 post is the way it should be , if you missed that . I was thinking the same thing about the pennant . I would say that would be a good fix . Also I was thinking about just lengthening the tang . To answer your question about being safe , well it's not right but I don't think it really hurts anything . I think ours has been that way for a while if not from the beginning. But first I'm going to play with it to see if I can get it right . A easy thing to do would be to make a temp. pennant withe some seizing , and if that works get something made up .


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

novic said:


> I'm sorry if this is a bit of a hijack:
> 
> For the profurl owners out there, how much space is realistically allowable between the top of the tang and the "top hat".
> 
> ...


Uhm, have you RTFM? There's plenty pf wiggle room there, and I think I explained what I do quite repeatedly in earlier posts on this thread.

You have a choice: use the halyard for tensioning the luff, or use a tack pennant.

Since, over time, my halyard does stretch a tad, I eventually tighten it up, usually about once every three months. Other than that I use the the tack pennant. It's just easier for me 'cuz my halyard is no longer run back to the cockpit. I have better uses for my swiveling cam cleats and clutches.


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

Stu , you need to calm down a bit buddy . I had to google RTFM , Not nice ! I googled NOPT = N word on a power trip ? Not nice ! Stu maybe you should try Cruising Anarchy , they love that kind of stuff over there. 
OK while Stu takes a time out , here is what I did today. I went scouting for ProFurls I found none were set up correctly as in post #17 . All had the halyard against the top hat not the tang , so obviously all were wrong . Also I had no idea ProFurl has made so many changes to the unit . I saw the unit captbillc was talking about where they have the foot block mounted to the mast that holds the halyard so it won't foul . Sorry bill I like my unit better although I don't know why the foot block solves a lot of problems . Anyhow the pennant at the tack I think is a excellent idea , but here is one more idea . A long D shackle at the tack and one at the head , probably 6 and a 1/2 doz. to the other , but just a thought . Fuzzy Can you change this to the ProFurl thread ? And get your Ninja Wombats ready to get Stu .


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

Mark, F stands for funny! 

Sheez...


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

The Wombats are close buddy .


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## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

Mark,
thanks for the tips. I'll have to figure something out to get the tang up a tad higher.

Stu,
I'm sorry my silly question rubbed you the wrong way. My ancient profurl has no FM that came with itAlso, as one of the newer guys on here, I'd ask that you give me a bit of a pass if my knowledge and/or forum etiquette is not up to speed. FYI, sailnet is the only "forum" I've ever joined, and my sailing experience is exactly 10 months, 6 of which were spent with my boat under a tarp and my sailing grounds under 4 feet of ice. So for the next little while, I plead ignorance if I come across as a bit of an idiot. Oh and let's hope the wombats have something better to do tonight.

Novic


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

Novic, I understand your position and apologize profusely since I ended up rubbing more than Judy the wrong way. And to Mark, also.

I just put my summer jib on today. Going back to Jon's text & his photo with the top swivel and the Darth Vader, I still maintain that there is little wiggle room, _especially if the tang is shortened_. Mine isn't but I have to be careful to NOT pull it up all the way for the swivel could, conceivably, rub against the bottom of the Darth Vader. That's why I deliberately left the tang long, and can let the top swivel "droop" a little below the Darth Vader and adjust the luff tension at the tack.

Given this furling mechanism as built by ProFurl (which I really like), I find it hard to measure so carefully that the luff of a NEW sail could be sized so that it fit perfectly by being tacked to the drum and matched at the head for the limited wiggle room provided on a ProFurl, which is, essentially, the length of the tang.

I am sure that qualified sailmakers, like Judy, do it all the time.

The reason I mention this at all is that many of us don't have the luxury of buying brand new sails that perfectly fit our existing furling gear. I have two sails, neither one of which were built for my ProFurl system, but both were designed and built by a high quality local loft specifically for a Catalina 34, obviously for furling gear (I won't use the "generic" word here again ). But using the tack for luff tension is simple.

My attempt here is to share knowledge of how it works, regardless of how new or experienced any reader may be. I've been all the way from hanked on sails to different furlers. I did the "stainless steel tack pennant" route even for handked on sails and, personally, found it didn't work.

My tack line is some high strength thin line that I loop through the D shackle on the top of the drum and the tack of the jib. It's about the ONLY hi-tech thing on my entire boat. 

I experimented with ss pennants on this rig, too, and it just didn't work. Once I decided that the jib hlyard didn't need to be run back to the cockpit, it became apparent.

Just tryin' to share experiences.

Good luck.


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