# Anchoring Technique ....!



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

I would be amiss to post a horror story about anchoring: *If you don't know how to anchor... DON'T !!!!!! *without also giving a reminder of anchoring technique.

* Scope:* This is perhaps the single most important and over looked aspect of setting your ground tackle. Scope is the "angle of attack", if you will, of the rode or anchor line in relation to the bottom. The longer the "scope" the more parallel to the bottom the rode will be and the less likely to yank the anchor out. A short or steep scope angle will most certainly yank the anchor out of the bottom and will NOT hold when the wind picks up!

How do I know what my scope should be? Scope is easily calculated but often calculated incorrectly. Scope is the MAX water depth plus the distance of your bow chock to the water plus any off set for your depth transducer. Huh? Ok you pull into an anchorage at low tide and it has a current water depth of 10 feet. The area you are in has a ten-foot tidal range (Maine). So your max water depth will be 20 feet. You know your bow chock is 4 feet off the water and your depth transducer is 1 foot bellow the surface and not calibrated as such. So you simply add 20 feet of water depth, to 4 feet of bow height, to 1 foot of transducer depth for a total of 25 feet of scope basis.

To set your anchor you should be using a minimum of 5:1 scope but the preferred setting scope remains7:1. So the 10 feet of water you read on your depth sounder was actually 11 because your transducer is a foot bellow the waters surface and when the tide is added to the bow height your 10 feet of water depth turned into 25!!

So let's pretend you think you set your anchor at a 5:1 scope, based on the 10 feet of water depth you saw on your depth gauge, as MANY sailors and boaters do. A 5:1 scope for 10 feet is simple it's 5 X 10 = 50 feet of scope. Oh, oh the tide comes in and you have mis-calculated your scope! For the example from above you ACTUALLY have 25 feet from the bottom of the ocean to your bow not the ten feet you mistakenly calculated.

For this same 5:1 scope you would need 125 feet of rode not 50!!!!! 50 feet of rode for a 25 foot scope basis is a VERY dangerous 2:1 scope or almost vertical!! You are NOWHERE near a 5:1. Again, this is a VERY common mistake. Please calculate scope carefully and always add the bow height and max tide!!

* Rode:* This is the second most overlooked aspect of anchoring. At a minimum you should be using 1.5 times the boat length of chain then a suitably sized, & highly elastic in nature, nylon rode. An absolute bare minimum chain length is one times the boat length!! An all chain rode is always better but you will need to use a very elastic snubber to prevent shock loading of the chain.

Why is the chain important? The chain serves a few purposes: 1) It serves as a weight to help prevent the anchor line from snapping tight and it keeps a curve or caternary in it during mild to moderate winds helping to keep the angle of attack on the anchor correct. (in high winds a sentinel or kellet may be needed to maintain caternary) 2) It prevents the nylon anchor line or rode from chafing on coral or rocks on the bottom. 3) It aids the anchor in proper setting by keeping the shank down so the flukes can penetrate when backing down.

* Anchors:* All anchors are not created equal and there is far too much to be written on this here. Some anchors do not re-set well on a wind and tide shift and thus should not be used when a wind or tide shift is expected. Some anchors perform better than others do for certain bottom types and it should be up to the boat owner to thoroughly research which anchor will perform best for his or her environment.

In a general summary Danforth types which include the Fortress do not like to re-set on wind and tide reliably, Bruce or Claw styles are generally good setters and re-setters but offer low holding and should be up sized at least one size beyond the recommended size. CQR's or plow styles can give false sets and MUST be properly set! The new generation anchors such as Spade, Rocna & Manson Supreme are generally excellent performers and practically set them selves..

When I mention partially set CQR's this photo is exactly what I'm referring to. This pictured CQR is NOT SET!!!!









* Technique:*

* #1) Examine the anchorage:* Make careful observations & based on weather predictions chose a spot that will be better protected from the prevailing winds. Also take note of how others are anchored and envision a 7:1 scope to mentally picture where their anchor might be on the bottom. DO NOT drop on someone else's anchor!!!!

If everyone is bow and stern anchored you need to do the same or there will be "swinging" issues! If everyone is bow anchored only DO NOT bow and stern anchor! All boats must swing naturally, and in unison. If one boat is bow and stern anchored it will not swing with the crowd and there will be fiberglass on fiberglass contact! Anchoring contradictory to the crowd is RUDE and inconsiderate! Boats on permanent moorings will swing around their bows, but will move very little compared to a boat on an anchor so be careful anchoring near permanently moored boats. In light air, boats with an all chain rode will not swing as far or as fast as those using a nylon/chain rode so take note of who has all chain to the deck! Choose your spot and visualize your boat swinging in unison with the others in a 360 pattern. If your spot has you hitting other boats during this 360 visualization exercise find a new one..

* #2) Prepare & set:* Once you've determined your "spot" calculate your scope as described above. For the best results use 7:1 for setting. 5:1 is an absolute bare minimum for setting and should be avoided if you want consistent results. As you approach your "spot" shorten the dinghy painter so it will not foul the prop when backing down! Slide the gear shifter into neutral and gently glide past and over where you actually want the anchor to set. Once beyond your "spot" slip it into reverse and get the boat going in a straight line backwards but SLOWLY at perhaps .3 to .5 knots! 
*
#3 Play out the rode:* As you begin to move backwards begin playing out the rode. DO NOT just drop a pile of chain or rode to the bottom it will tangle the flukes! The rode must be played out while moving backwards and gently and methodically. As you begin to get to about a 4:1 (your rode should ALWAYS BE MARKED IN FEET OR METERS) gently snub the anchor for a test bite. This will orient the anchor to a proper setting angle if it has not already happened. If you begin to feel resistance let off your snub and continue playing out line until you hit 7:1+ gently snubbing along the way every now and then. The greater the scope used in setting the better the result and better the odds of a first try set will be..
*
#4 Setting the Anchor:* As the boat approaches a 7:1 put it in neutral and let the weight of the boat and the remaining momentum partially set the anchor and come to a stop. Once the boat has finished stopping, and is back to a taught line, not jerked forward from nylon rode stretch, run the engine up to full cruise RPM (usually 80% of max rated throttle) and finish setting or burying the anchor! If the anchor moves or drags you'll need to start over! No AUX sailboat engine should be able to budge a properly sized and set anchor! If it does you need new ground tackle! The average sailboat AUX engine can barely replicate 25 or 30 knots of wind with the engine and most can only replicate about 12-17 knots.

This last step, 80% of max throttle, is very important and is one MANY overlook. Bottoms are often made of "layers" and the top silt layer is easily penetrable and will hold fine in light conditions but not moderate or high winds. You want to dig the anchor into the next layer, the one that is much harder, and will hold even in high winds to be properly set.

I have spent a great deal of time in my life diving on anchors and I can assure you a solid 85% of the anchors out there are NOT properly set. With CQR's this is usually represented by a partial sideways set meaning it is laying on its side with the tip partially buried! There was a perfect picture of a CQR doing this in the Sail Magazine anchor-testing article from last year! If you are not back-winding the sails or using 80% of your engines capacity your anchor is NOT set.

* #5 Shortening scope:* Now that you set the anchor it is somewhat safe, depending on your choice of anchor and chain/rode configuration to shorten to a safer swinging scope for the anchorage you're in. 4:1 is the generally accepted minimum for calm conditions or winds bellow 10 knots. 5:1 can usually be safe to around 14-15 and any wind speeds over that you will want more scope or at least a 7:1. Try and pick areas that will allow you to use the max allowable scope in case of a micro-burst or wind. If you leave your self only enough room for 4:1 you'll likely get exactly what you ordered the "disaster plate special with a side order of heartburn and severe anxiety"!

Hope this helps and that I did not forget anything&#8230;


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

..................huh


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## Plumper (Nov 21, 2007)

Quite the dissertation. I'd have to argue with the 80% power going backwards. That seems excessive to me unless your boat is way under powered. Some boats could drag their anchors around all day with 80% astern power.

You have also neglected to tell folks how they can tell if the anchor is set or dragging. It may not be apparent to some......evidently.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Plumper said:


> Quite the dissertation. I'd have to argue with the 80% power going backwards. That seems excessive to me unless your boat is way under powered. Some boats could drag their anchors around all day with 80% astern power.


We'll have to agree to disagree then on this point. If you can drag your anchor with 80% sailboat aux power you'll most likely have issues in anything over 25-30 knots.. I can't budge my anchor even swinging a big ol' fixed three blade on a 2003 four cylinder 44hp Westerbeke and that's the way it should be. If I could drag it I'd buy a bigger anchor.. Keep in mind many reversing gears are NOT the same ratio in reverse as in forward..

It's interesting to note what the West Marine/Sail Mag test boat used as an engine and prop to try and drag anchors intended for 35-40 foot boats!!!!!! They did not drag them around the bay with a sailboat aux engine!!

_*"We were able to apply and accurately record how the anchors reacted to up to 5,000 pounds of load, thanks to the 52-foot, 92,000-pound research vessel Shana Rae, which we chartered to do the pulling. Equipped with a 375-horsepower diesel engine and a 40-inch-diameter propeller, Shana Rae allowed us to apply more force on each anchor than it would ever experience in "normal conditions."

*_Converting HP to thrust is a complicated science, with all the variables, and far to complicated to go into here. Suffice it to say that depending upon prop and other variables thrust is anywhere from 20lbs to 35lbs. per hp.

So let's take a look at a Universal M-25, a very common sailboat aux engine. At 3200 RPM it develops 21 hp however max RPM is rated at 3000 RPM. At 80% of rated RPM it will develop about 18hp. Now if you figure you have a two blade sailor prop with a 45% efficiency, as many do, and a reduction gear that is half the speed in reverse as forward the equation would look something like this.

18 hp X 25lbs thrust = 450lbs Now subtract your prop efficiency loss and reduction gear X% of forward for a given transmission and you're likely down to a thrust of bellow 200lbs.. If you can drag an anchor around on less than 200lbs of thrust than as I said you have some serious issues..!

BTW my old Catalina 36 had an M-25 in it. In 42 knots of wind that boat will be pulling between 1800 and 2100 lbs... Even in 30 knots it's pulling between 900 & 1100 lbs...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

halekai36 said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree then on this point. If you can drag your anchor with 80% sailboat aux power you'll most likely have issues in anything over 25-30 knots.. I can't budge my anchor even swinging a big ol' fixed three blade on a 2003 four cylinder 44hp Westerbeke and that's the way it should be. If I could drag it I'd buy a bigger anchor.. Keep in mind many reversing gears are NOT the same ratio in reverse as in forward..
> 
> It's interesting to note what the West Marine/Sail Mag test boat used as an engine and prop to try and drag anchors intended for 35-40 foot boats!!!!!! They did not drag them around the bay with a sailboat aux engine!!
> 
> ...


Agreed - and at about any reverse thrust. Your anchor had better hold in reverse. I do not know about it dragging at 25ish... but if she jumps into the 30's or 40's, I could see that.

- CD


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

When powering back on your anchor, watch your SOG (speed over ground) display on the GPS -- with the rode tight and the anchor set it should read 0.0 knots. If it doesn't, you are dragging or swinging, or something else is amiss -- the COG (course over ground) display can be informative here.

Once your anchor is set, leave your GPS on, zoomed in to it's closest scale. With cookie-crumb tracking on you can see how your boat wanders around at the end of your rode, and when you wake up in the middle of the night can instantly tell whether you've moved from where you started the night. (I sometimes even take a hand-held GPS to bed with me so I don't have to crawl out of my bunk to glance at it...)

Many GPS's can set an "Anchor Alarm," but I find the cookie-crumb tracking to be the most useful.

If you're really clever and coordinated you can punch the "Mark" button at the right time and store the exact coordinates where you dropped your anchor. Then your GPS will tell you bearing and range to that "waypoint" -- if the range is greater than the amount of rode you have out, then you know something is amiss.

Lots of other techniques to monitor for dragging, too, like taking bearings to fixed objects on shore, having a feel for the motion of the boat (rolling side to side vs. pitching fore-and-aft), feeling and/or listening for vibrations transmitted up the anchor rode, staying attuned to other sounds (surf, dogs barking on shore, etc...), and smells (exposed tidal flat mud, etc...), setting the shallow and deep alarms on your depth sounder, etc....

Regards,

Tim


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Ok ive got 2 anchors out on my boat. Both are on 200' of line and 30' of 3/8''s chain with 30# bruces on each one. Ive got a max depth of about 35'. Both of my anchors are out, one up river and one down river. Both only have about 15-20' of line left on the boat. They hold great, untill the wind blows across the river, then im screwed. 

My boat is a Pearson 36 weighing in at 13tons. All extra windage has been removed save for the boom and bimini. Any ideas to get it to stay put without an extra anchor, other than getting around to putting my mooring down.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Plumper said:


> I'd have to argue with the 80% power going backwards. That seems excessive to me unless your boat is way under powered. Some boats could drag their anchors around all day with 80% astern power.


I agree with the original poster. I do let my anchor settle for a few minutes before backing down on it, but I run the engine up to 2200 rpm (Yanmar 4JH4E) before declaring "anchor down."


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Halekai...nice write up but I also disagree with the 80% power rule and the length of chain rule. 
I have found that some anchors in SOME bottoms need to just work themselves into the bottom slowly rather than being dragged. I have found that the CQR in particular and Delta's to a lesser extent benefit from some time with light loads on them to bury and set properly particularly in mud or muddy sand bottoms. For years I followed the back down hard advice with my CQR until I learned that all it was doing was giving me a lot of unnecessary exercise. Setting the anchor for me means making sure to snub it at about 1/3 scope to insure it grabs...then letting out full scope to allow it to set naturally. The only time I use the engine is when it is dead calm and I need to put on a light load to get the initial set. I have no objection to a test "haul" in reverse, but I think it should be delayed unless conditions are deteriorating and you need to be sure *now*. I do keep an anchor watch for at least 1 hour after setting.

While I carry a full chain rode on my primary, I would note that Fortress explicitly states that only 6 ft. of chain is advised with their anchors in 25 ft. of water or less. Danforth recommends 8ft. with their 100lb. anchor. So...fluke type anchors may not benefit from excessive chain. For other types I think at least a boat length is needed.

So...there's a bit of difference of opinion but by and large if everyone followed your instructions, we'd be way better off than with what one can see in almost any anchorage daily!


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## merlin2375 (Jul 12, 2007)

Great post, very informative! Thanks for sharing!


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

*Nice write up, but two more things...*

Two other items I would add:

1) *Attach a float* the anchor so others know where your anchor is. I easily made one from a crab pot float.

2) If you have a GPS, most can set an *anchor alarm*, do so.


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## TAK (Jul 14, 2003)

I have never anchored in Maine but in the Chesapeake there are areas where you could plow all day and never get it set. I have only had my Delta 44 fail once fortunately and it was in 45MPH winds. ~ and that was with 50 feet of chain and 7:1 ratio of rode. You can have the best anchor around put nothing replaces you monitoring your situation when conditions call for it and not assume the anchor (or the guy 100yards away..) is going to hold. 

I agree with the others that it is best to let it set first before tugging under power.


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## mikethecapt (Nov 20, 2005)

outstanding write up, now lets talk about droping and setting your second hook.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

*Raft ups?*

What about anchoring for raft ups...the most common anchor dragging situation I witness?

The middle boat, which should be the biggest with the largest anchor, and set at least a 10:1 scope?

If sailboats are tied up next to one another, be sure to offset your rigging 

More?


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

catamount said:


> When powering back on your anchor, watch your SOG (speed over ground) display on the GPS -- with the rode tight and the anchor set it should read 0.0 knots. If it doesn't, you are dragging or swinging, or something else is amiss -- the COG (course over ground) display can be informative here.


Don't get too worried if is shows a tenth of a knot while backing down as the prop walk is usually the culprit... As catamount stated the plotter zoomed into the 20 foot scale will tell you all you need to know..


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

SVDistantStar said:


> Ok ive got 2 anchors out on my boat. Both are on 200' of line and 30' of 3/8''s chain with 30# bruces on each one. Ive got a max depth of about 35'. Both of my anchors are out, one up river and one down river. Both only have about 15-20' of line left on the boat. They hold great, untill the wind blows across the river, then im screwed.


Well for one you are a little short on scope and anchor size! 35 feet + roughly four feet of bow height is 273 feet of rode for a 7:1 not 210 which is roughly 5:1. For a permanent mooring you'll want at least a 7:1 but anchoring should not be a substitute for a permanent mooring!

Just because you have two anchors set it does not change the scope for each one. A 44lb claw or Bruce is a much better suited anchor for that vessel as the Bruce is a rather low holding design with minimal surface are per pound. I used to used a 44lb Bruce on a Catalina 36 not the 33lb..


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

Here's another tip on figuring scope, if you're using a sufficient length of chain followed by nylon rope -- start measuring your rode for length markers at the chain to rope connection, NOT at the anchor. Then you just need to take the reading from your depth sounder and not worry about the height of your bow above the water or the depth of your transducer below the water, because with enough chain you've already given yourself 7:1 scope for that part; you just have to let out enough nylon to get 7:1 for the water depth.

Also, with practice you'll come to know what the angle between the rode and the water should look like at different scopes, and you can dispense with higher math -- except for the tide-- set your scope visually per above, know where you are in the tidal cycle and how much higher high tide will be (look at the shore for clues!), and then let out enough additional rode to account for the expect rise of tide.

Regards,

Tim


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

halekai36 said:


> Don't get too worried if is shows a tenth of a knot while backing down as the prop walk is usually the culprit... As catamount stated the plotter zoomed into the 20 foot scale will tell you all you need to know..


Or just looking at the COG display will tell you in which direction you are moving. Comparing that with your compass heading will tell you whether you are moving backwards (dragging anchor), moving sideways (swinging due to prop-walk, current or other cause), or moving forwards (your elastic rode springing you back towards your anchor!).


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## BigAssHam (Nov 5, 2007)

I can't believe you left out the most important rule:

Never anchor behind a power boat.

( You know the ones - big cruisers with an electric windlass. They anchor with 1:1 scope and set the thing without ever leaving the cockpit )


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Haleikai,

Good job! I'm an "anchoring fiend". Have been for over 50 years. When teaching sailing, I always include a full session on anchoring technique.

Cam's comment about the 80% and CQR's is relevant; I've also found that letting the anchor settle awhile, sailing to and fro at anchor in a good wind, can help the set very well. Then, applying power in reverse isn't a bad idea.

With Danforths or Fortresses, though, you ought to be able to apply power right away, and I agree that no sailboat has enough power to drag a well-set anchor. If it drags, you either didn't set it correctly, the bottom is hopeless, or your ground tackle is either inappropriate to the bottom type or WAY too light.

I don't agree with the short chain recommendation for Fortress or Danforth anchors. I believe that in virtually all circumstances an all-chain rode is to be preferred. The catenary provided by heavy chain is hard to beat, and it take a very strong wind to straighten out that chain.

Re: your recent anchoring drama, there will always be numbskulls out there. But, hopefully, some will read your post and benefit from its experience-based wisdom.

Cheers,

Bill


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

camaraderie said:


> I have found that some anchors in SOME bottoms need to just work themselves into the bottom slowly rather than being dragged. I have found that the CQR in particular and Delta's to a lesser extent benefit from some time with light loads on them to bury and set properly particularly in mud or muddy sand bottoms.


Cam having used CQR's for many, many years I have to disagree. I have tried every method and the letting it sit method still in about 70% of the cases still left it parially set and I could yank it out hours later before I went to bed and backed down on it. The only way I found to successfully hit about an 80% success rate on the first set with my CQR's, and this involved diving to confirm when the vis was good enough, was to to test snubs on the initial play out slowly jerking it into the bottom. As I stated I let the boats weight stop on the initial set then back down. I found no added benefit, even as much as 6 hours later, to the let it settle method and could literally drag my anchor around the cove.

A properly sized and set CQR WILL HOLD a sailboat AUX at 80% throttle an improperly set one will plow the bottom in preparation for corn season. If you can drag your CQR it is NOT set!

My Rocna sets like I'm tied to a pier in about two to three feet every time for over 120 anchorings thus far....

This is my 35 CQR (on the right) that I used to use. As you can see it has many, many hundreds of anchorings on it and my write up above was based on my personal experience with the CQR and others..


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

halekai36 said:


> When I mention partially set CQR's this photo is exactly what I'm referring to. This pictured CQR is NOT SET!!!!


Useful post. But I disagree with you regarding this photo. This CQR has its point buried down and is well set, probably driven in as hard as can be achieved by motoring in reverse. It will not shift provided the pull stays in the same direction, though a strong blow and snatching swells might drive the point further downwards and so in harder.

Where the CQR differs from other plow types such as the Delta is in the hinged shank, which allows, in fact encourages it to set partly on its side. A Delta in this position would not be set as a further pull would not tend to force down the point. It has to turn upright which in my experience makes them harder to achieve a decent set, though very solid once it has been done.

We sharpen the tip of our CQR which helps a lot in getting that initial bite, specially on weed.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

LynW said:


> Useful post. But I disagree with you regarding this photo. This CQR has its point buried down and is well set, probably driven in as hard as can be achieved by motoring in reverse. It will not shift provided the pull stays in the same direction, though a strong blow and snatching swells might drive the point further downwards and so in harder.
> 
> Where the CQR differs from other plow types such as the Delta is in the hinged shank, which allows, in fact encourages it to set partly on its side. A Delta in this position would not be set as a further pull would not tend to force down the point. It has to turn upright which in my experience makes them harder to achieve a decent set, though very solid once it has been done.
> 
> We sharpen the tip of our CQR which helps a lot in getting that initial bite, specially on weed.


I'm sorry you feel that way and that you accept that photo as a properly set CQR...

I can assure you that anchor is not set. I have seen my own CQR set like that many times and when I backed down it un-set about 30% of the time! A properly set CQR will bury with the plow vertical just as a Delta will but it needs to be properly backed down on to to do this.

The CQR "partial set" is may be linked to the hinge but this "partial set" is most likely also linked to many, many drags and a false sense of security in benign conditions as happened to me the other night when I was dragged onto. I can think of no other anchor that needs a careful and proper set more than the CQR..

P.S. I have been dragged onto, just this season alone, by two separate and inept CQR users...

CQR's will set but that photo is NOT a set CQR for anything over mild wind conditions.

That anchor may set if you apply horse power and it may not. In my experience, in that orientation, it will set about 70% of the time from that position. That leaves about a 30% failure rate from the "partial set" orientation... Even a 5% failure rate is unacceptable when dealing with lives and 5,6 and 7 figure vessels 30% is ridiculous..


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Hal 
Great post, full of good guidelines, but in anchoring all input is a guide, there is never a hard and fast rule except one - if you are set you don't/won't move outside your swing circle.
The best place to set the anchor alarm on the GPS is when / where you drop the anchor, not all the way back on the rode, then set the alarm to go off if you move more than the swing circle - otherwise you get false alarms as you move around and too many false alarms become easily ignored.

Seeing as I'm one of those highly disparaged guys with the electric windlass on the bow that can drop a anchor without leaving the helm all I have to say is I've never dragged on my little bitty 25 lb danforth, 25 ft of 1/4 inch chain and rope rode set in good old Chesapeake mud. Dropping my stern anchor to prevent swing just adds candy to the party, of course my favorite stern anchor is a big old tree on the bank (eat draft mono's  )
I have a good bit more windage than most folks IF the wind gets on my beam, but with two hulls the wind tends to funnel between them and keep me pointed pretty good. Current and tidal current depends on depth of the current, drawing 18 inches makes it problematic at times.

I am considering a 35 lb Manson, if it fits my rollers.


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## Plumper (Nov 21, 2007)

I find the "setting of the anchor" question interesting. Doesn't the anchor tend to set when the wind slowly builds and puts more and more strain on the anchor? Isn't that the same as backing down? Although I always back down to lay out the chain and set the anchor, I am convinced that it takes a while to "soak" and really set. If a wind comes up shortly after anchoring I am much more concerned than if I have been on the hook for a couple days. Of course if I am really concerned I just lay out all my chain (280') regardless of the depth, if there is room. In that case very little strain is ever on the anchor because there are hundreds of pounds of chain to drag around first. Chain doesn't do any good in the locker.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

chucklesR said:


> Hal
> .
> 
> I am considering a 35 lb Manson, if it fits my rollers.


You'll be very happy with that anchor...!


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

Great information. As a rookie sailboater and anchor setter I have trouble backing down with the horrible prop walk to port that is just one of the charming features of my boat. I have had good success ghosting up to were I want the anchor to be in neutral, sand bottom with clear water, and let the wind blow me back until I have the scope out that I want. Then I cleat off the rode and let the momentum set the anchor. When I have tried to back down it usually ends up looking like a goofy corkscrew unless I get enough sternway to achieve steerage which ends up being almost two knots. That can bury the anchor deeply but requires some fast hands to cleat off the nylon rode without loosing a finger. I always dive the anchor to confirm it is set well but do wish I could back down with the engine in anything resembling a straight line at .3 to .5 knots as described. Suggestions are welcome.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

FarCry said:


> Great information. As a rookie sailboater and anchor setter I have trouble backing down with the horrible prop walk to port that is just one of the charming features of my boat. I have had good success ghosting up to were I want the anchor to be in neutral, sand bottom with clear water, and let the wind blow me back until I have the scope out that I want. Then I cleat off the rode and let the momentum set the anchor. When I have tried to back down it usually ends up looking like a goofy corkscrew unless I get enough sternway to achieve steerage which ends up being almost two knots. That can bury the anchor deeply but requires some fast hands to cleat off the nylon rode without loosing a finger. I always dive the anchor to confirm it is set well but do wish I could back down with the engine in anything resembling a straight line at .3 to .5 knots as described. Suggestions are welcome.


Short bursts of reverse will tend to minimize the prop walk. Also wait till the boat is resting on the rode, pointed into the wind before you hit reverse then load her up for about 10 to 20 seconds each burst. Wait in between bursts for the wind to set you straight again and load her up again.. Do this a few of times and you should be fine and you won't have a huge prop walk issue.

Any time you're backing use "bursts" of reverse instead of steady & constant reverse and you'll do much better and be able to steer the boat straighter..


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

*I just anchored for the first time...!!!!*

       
Please stop reading now if you have no sense of humor...or will be upset about a wee bit of fun with a subject so serious as this... or better yet, just skip this all together and print it out for bathroom reading as it really contributes nothing to this informative thread.



Well, thanks to my esteemed YC commodore, and Halekai's posts I now consider myself an expert in "dropping the old hook" as it were.

Allow me to relate to the play by play from my first anchoring experience.

We're on the Magothy. Friday nights with the YCCSC... showers on and off ...humidity 110% ....wind -3kts out of N by NSWE (Chesapeake sailors will know what I mean...) Pretty standard conditions.

The raft up was planned for about 730pm and wouldn't you know it...a race broke out before hand. This happens sometimes... I'm not sure how it was decided but Chuckles threw a bunch of signs out on the side of his boat and we all drifted in a little circle. Some had to be pushed by Chuckles in the right direction.

I managed to drift the course faster than my under-beer'd competitors. (the reason I knew they didn't have enough beer will become evident later...)

So...as I blasted at 0.0000005kts over the finish line to win by 17 minutes and 0.5 boat lengths... (you need that kind of resolution on your speed instruments on the Magothy) Chuckles hails me on the VHF. Here is a transcription of that most informative conversation, as my Commodore mentors me through this most serious of tasks....

The bay, and most of it's rivers are about 250 ft. deep. That's right... the problem is... it's only a very thin layer of water (usually about 10 ft) that covers about 240ft. of mushy black mud. Some people call the mud "the bottom"...

back to the VHF:

Chuckles: "Craig, do you have your VHF on?"

(apparently he did that a few times.. then just screamed over)

Chuckles [screaming]: CRAIG!! VHF 68...!!!

Craig [VHF]: Hi CHuck!

Chuckles [VHF]: Hi Craig, how do you say the name of your boat?

Craig: "ser" like in ceramic and "sha" like "sha la la la la"...

Chuck: Riiiiiight... ok...so you wanna raft up?

Craig: Sure!

Chuck: Ok well we usually anchor right over there in about 5 ft. of water, what do you draw?

Craig: um....I like to draw mountain scenes (I'm thinking ... what the hell?)

Chuckles: No, how much water does your boat need to not hit bottom?

Craig: OOOohhh ... heh about 4 ft.

Chuck: Well it seems I've got to wait a while till everyone crosses, why don't you go over there and anchor and when everyone crosses we'll raft up to you.

[silence....]

Chuck: Craig you copy that?

Craig: Yeah... um anchor.. never done that before....

Chuck: Do you have an anchor? Yes you do... I see it on the front of the boat... What kind is it?

Craig: Hold on let me check....

I ran to the front of the boat... and called Chuck

Craig: [very proud] Chuck, we're in luck... it's metal...must be a good one! I knew Sabre wouldn't skimp out.

Chuck: Riiiiight.. Ok.. .Is it attached to the boat?

Craig: Wow! Look at this.. a little door and everything! And here's another metal one! I've got two!

Chuck: Ok... .I think we'll just need one.

Craig: Pretty cool that I have a spare huh? DO you have two? You've got two hulls...! DO you need two?

Chuck: Yes. Very cool.. no I .. nevermind... Now free-up the rode and make sure ... wait...what I mean is.. the rope...that's attached to your anchor on the front... not the spare.... make sure you have it all untangled...and on deck.. When that's done call me back.

Craig: Ok.. all done....

Chuck: Do you have chain attached to the anchor before the rope?

Craig: yep!

Chuck: How much?

Craig: Alot!

Chuck: Ok..... Well when the boat stops moving forward bump it into reverse and drift backwards... Lower (don't drop) the big metal thing and then slowly let out the chain until you let about 80 or so feet out. Snug it up a few times on the way out, tie it off and then put it in reverse a bunch and try to pull it out.

Yadda yadda... that all worked just fine.. I prefer my method of just aggressively dropping the big parking finger that's below the keel... but you know.. when you belong to a yacht club.. you've got to "keep up...."

Turns out.. I thought the other competitors were monitoring 68, but no one came up and rafted with me except Chuck.. just got some some nervous laughter when I tried to contact them over the VHF.... I figure it was because they ran out of beer. (It was a long race...)

Chuckles, his lovely wife and their friend rafted up next to Dad and I and we had a great time touring each other's boats and hanging out.

After an hour or two Chuckles had to head in. I had to get the big metal thing off the "bottom".... What a freakin' mess that was.... Most of the mud came up with the metal thing... I mean.. how unlucky was I? The pointy end dug in and the shovel part scooped up like 20lbs of mud.. which ended up ALL OVER the front of my boat... Some mud even made it into the new secret door compartment which I had just found. (Gonna take off the anchors and make a beer cooler out of that puppy btw.. pics to follow...it even has a drain for melting ice..)

So anyway. In the future.. I'll just throw out a rope off the front (for looks)and drop the parking finger..I figure no-one will know the difference.

See ya'll soon in a cozy cove!

Craig


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Awsome!*

Now that's a funny story!!! You got rep for that!!!


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## linnetwoods (Jul 14, 2008)

Our 21 metre (72') schooner weighs 38 tons. We haven't had any engines for the past few years, just the outboard on the dinghy. Once we have sounded the depth with our leadline (we haven't had an electronic depth sounder since the umpteenth one clapped out after less than a year) and found out what the bottom consists of we're ready to drop an anchor. 

Our main anchor is a 97 kilo CQR on 12mm BB chain and we always make sure we pick a large empty space, even if it means being somewhere not ideally convenient, and drop the anchor with a very small buoy attached to it so we (and potential neighbours) can always see where it is. 

We try to get some idea of where the ugliest wave conditions would come from - the most exposed side of the bay - and set our anchor to deal with that scenario, even if the wind is currently blowing from a kinder direction, by dropping it while the bow is facing the worst direction and we let two boat-lengths of chain out as we drop back and see where that gets us. If we need to put out more because our bows are consistently facing the buoy and the chain is up like a piano wire, we have up to 80 metres total available (just under 4 boat-lengths).

The secondary anchor is always ready on the other bow roller and is a 33 kilo Bruce on 30 metres of 10mm chain, with high grade rode in such quantities we have never been anywhere that would use it all up (a gift from some acquaintances with a fancy yacht who always replace things that seem absolutely fine to us!) which we use as a quick-stop hook or a second set of brakes and the tertiary anchor is a whacking great Danforth with chain and rode, positioned so that we could heave it out of the side door, so to speak, on the foredeck and which would probably stop a ship. We hope never to have to deploy it but if you don't have an engine you'd better have good brakes! Once the anchor is down we always put the rudder amidships (lined up with the bow, neither to port nor starboard) to let the boat respond to the anchor/wind combination.

We stay on anchor watch most of the time, really - it just becomes a habit to check your position (we don't use the GPS when the boat is stationary because we need to preserve energy on board - mainly so I can come and post here  but we take visual sights on as many shoreline objects as we can and keep finding new ones as the wind changes until we are used to our scope. 

If other boats turn up - and it's amazing how they do, following us into the most unhospitable places in the belief that it must be good if someone else has chosen to anchor in it - we may take some chain in to reduce the amount of space we are hogging but only if it's safe to do so - otherwise it usually falls to me (men seem to take less offence at being addressed by a lady) to explain to would-be neighbours that they might like to give us a wide berth as we're heavy and have no engines.

If you plan to sleep on board, I'd say a secondary anchor (ready to deploy, not stashed in a locker under piles of other things) is a very good thing to have, even if you have an engine. Anything can happen and it's comforting to have spare brakes.

Usually, the boat is held by the chain so well that our anchor buoy is off to one side or even behind us in very still conditions - it's important if you are going to use one to make sure it is small and light and can easily slip past anything it comes into contact with - we used a fender once and it got caught up in the dinghy painter (as we call the line that tethers it to the back of the boat) which could have been catastrophic if I hadn't seen it and untangled it before a stiff wind came up less than ten minutes later. The small rigid marker buoy we use now seems to extract itself from these situations more easily. In seriously tidal areas we don't use one because you'd have to have so much line on it to cope with high tide that it would be nowhere near the anchor during low tide...

We used to anchor 'Admiralty'-style, with the Bruce going out first, on 30 feet of chain, the other end of which was attached to a 60-kilo CQR on the rest of the chain. It worked fine but it meant havaing to pull the last segment of chain and the Bruce up hand-over-hand and we're no spring chickens


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## rocinante33 (Dec 4, 2007)

Good thread!

No one mentioned that when you back down, the bowperson should reach around the pulpit and put his/her hand on the rode (loosely, please). In this manner you can often feel the anchor skipping across the bottom if it has not set correctly. Very low tech, but a good first step to see if you are adequately set.

I have another question on anchoring technique, but it is kinda, sorta specific to my situation, so I will make it a new thread.


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## rocinante33 (Dec 4, 2007)

Linnet, 

do you mean to say you have a 97 kG anchor and no power to lift it off of the bottom? You must have a lot of crew that crank on your manual windlass, or one small beleaguered crew and a very, very big whip! Avast, ye swabs!


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I felt like I was "there", very good funny story.


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## linnetwoods (Jul 14, 2008)

*Yes and no...*



rocinante33 said:


> Linnet,
> 
> do you mean to say you have a 97 kG anchor and no power to lift it off of the bottom? You must have a lot of crew that crank on your manual windlass, or one small beleaguered crew and a very, very big whip! Avast, ye swabs!


We have a windlass... but the 24volt motor needs a rewind or something so the entire crew (Captain Quite-Right, me and Sweetie Pie, the ship's cat) have to use one of the primary winches (Lewmar 65) and take it in turns to run forward when a great big loop of chain has reached the coachroof, clip a line onto a forward link, help the slack down past the windlass gypsy into the chain locker and re-apply the winching line to the remainder of the chain. Repeat until anchor is clear of bottom and then winch like mad while other person raises staysail etc.

Sweetie Pie is crap at winching and doesn't like to visit the foredeck except when we are staying put... that just leaves his deck slaves to do all the work. Maybe I should buy him a whip instead of letting him just sit there glaring at us from the companionway hatch... Avast, indeed!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd disagree about the float. The problem with an anchor float is that some idiot powerboater may not see it and if they snag it with their prop, what do you think is going to happen to your anchor and how it is set???

As for the rest of what's been written, I'm with Halekai. Back down on the anchor. If you can move it with the engine... you're doing something wrong or your anchor is too small.

I also agree that a secondary anchor should be ready to go. I like to keep the secondary anchor in the cockpit, so that it can be deployed in an emergency relatively quickly.


T37Chef said:


> Two other items I would add:
> 
> 1) *Attach a float* the anchor so others know where your anchor is. I easily made one from a crab pot float.
> 
> 2) If you have a GPS, most can set an *anchor alarm*, do so.


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## linnetwoods (Jul 14, 2008)

*Have I missed something?*



Freesail99 said:


> I felt like I was "there", very good funny story.


What's in that glass, anyway?!


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

linnetwoods said:


> What's in that glass, anyway?!


Page 3....


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## linnetwoods (Jul 14, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> I'd disagree about the float. The problem with an anchor float is that some idiot powerboater may not see it and if they snag it with their prop, what do you think is going to happen to your anchor and how it is set???


That happened to our first float, actually, but we use such thin line that it would be severed instantly if that happens and we wrap self-amalgamating tape around the potential chafe-point, to protect the line and buoy from each other.

Having said that, there are busy places where we wouldn't deploy the marker buoy because it's whereabouts can be deceptive and people may anchor erroneously, not realising that yours is the boat on the other end of it although you are quite a long way to one side of it.


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## linnetwoods (Jul 14, 2008)

craigtoo said:


> Page 3....


Thanks craigtoo! I wouldn't have wanted to miss that one - and thanks to Freesail99 without whose apparently random comment I would have missed a really funny post. Cheers!


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

*We'll have to agree to disagree*



sailingdog said:


> I'd disagree about the float. The problem with an anchor float is that some idiot powerboater may not see it and if they snag it with their prop, what do you think is going to happen to your anchor and how it is set???


Let me clarify, being that most of my experience in boating has been on the Chesapeake Bay, and that one is often anchoring is less then 10'-15' of water, even with the appropriate scope a sailboat keel or deep draft powerboat passing just a little to close could easily snag my rode.

The line attached to the float is thin, and would likely be cut and disturb the anchor very little if at all. The other option would be for the anchor rode to be caught by the passing boat and then I lose the whole anchor???

Deploying a anchor float and losing it or having to reset a anchor vs. losing everything? I think I am going to continue to deploy a float.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Ahh... that does make sense... in deeper water, it really doesn't make sense to use a buoy most of the time.



T37Chef said:


> Let me clarify, being that most of my experience in boating has been on the Chesapeake Bay, and that one is often anchoring is less then 10'-15' of water, even with the appropriate scope a sailboat keel or deep draft powerboat passing just a little to close could easily snag my rode.
> 
> The line attached to the float is thin, and would likely be cut and disturb the anchor very little if at all. The other option would be for the anchor rode to be caught by the passing boat and then I lose the whole anchor???
> 
> Deploying a anchor float and losing it or having to reset a anchor vs. losing everything? I think I am going to continue to deploy a float.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

linnetwoods said:


> Thanks craigtoo! I wouldn't have wanted to miss that one - and thanks to Freesail99 without whose apparently random comment I would have missed a really funny post. Cheers!


*clink* cheers! back at ya!

All the best...

ch


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I try to help and it's wine ...



> Thanks craigtoo! I wouldn't have wanted to miss that one - and thanks to Freesail99 without whose apparently random comment I would have missed a really funny post. Cheers!


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Put a foot on the chain as you power back to set the anchor. If it's dragging, you'll feel it vibrating and jumping.
My new to me boat came with a CQR and I found it tricky to set. Never had issues setting my bruce on the old boat. But I did OK with 75' of chain in 8' of water in 40k gusts last week.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

I think it's less a question of technique and more an issue of antiquated technology and hardware.

We no longer carry any of the ancient tried-but-untrue plow/fluke/scoop type anchors, nor the fathoms of associated chain/line by way of rode. Even the "improved" plow designs like Rocna and Manson Supreme are nothing more than marginal variations on a fundamentally flawed concept.

We now carry a state of the art, portable helical anchoring system. We deploy it amidships, with the spinnaker pole, which attaches to the helix via a pole socket, mounted to the upper terminus of the helix. We screw it into the bottom by driving circles around it. To "up anchor", we drive circles in the opposite direction and unscrew it. We hang from it on no more than a short 2:1 scope, not for holding power, but to absorb some of the shock from wave action. Questionable sets and dragging are unheard of --the Queen Mary could raft with us and it would hold.

In deeper waters where we're unable to set the helix, we use a giant electromagnet. But in the near future, the problem of deeper water will be solved as well. Some sailboat designs now on the drawing boards will use a telescoping helix deployed from the underside of the boat right beneath the mast step. It will be push-button for deploy and retrieve. The boat will stay exactly in place, as it should be. No more hogging the anchorage with your 200' of scope and associate swing circle! 

I'm amazed anyone even still uses the antiquated anchors and techniques described in this thread. Rather than trying to follow Halekai's tortured advice, do yourself and the peaceful anchorage a favor: Upgrade to a modern anchor system!


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

John, 

Can you please reference a website for that new anchor system, I googled it but must not be entering the proper terminology, I really want one.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

The worst part about Craigtoo's story is other than cutting out a few of my famous jokes to make himself sound funnier, and the fact that it was a saturday morning, not friday night - humor must be contagious in my YC.

basically his story is true. I de-virginized his anchor two weeks ago. Remember now ye sailnet'ers he bought the bought in N.C and sailed it up the bay - during a multi day voyage, never once anchoring the boat.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

*I Yield....*



JohnRPollard said:


> I think it's less a question of technique and more an issue of antiquated technology and hardware.
> 
> We no longer carry any of the ancient tried-but-untrue plow/fluke/scoop type anchors, nor the fathoms of associated chain/line by way of rode. Even the "improved" plow designs like Rocna and Manson Supreme are nothing more than marginal variations on a fundamentally flawed concept.
> 
> ...


I am but an amateur....I am humbled.... Here I am .. using the cheap...Not-yacht-Club-like - Parking Finger.... I hope one day to screw with the best of them!


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

chucklesR said:


> The worst part about Craigtoo's story is other than cutting out a few of my famous jokes to make himself sound funnier, and the fact that it was a saturday morning, not friday night - humor must be contagious in my YC.
> 
> basically his story is true. I de-virginized his anchor two weeks ago. Remember now ye sailnet'ers he bought the bought in N.C and sailed it up the bay - during a multi day voyage, never once anchoring the boat.


280 Miles.... ! (actually that's getting longer everytime I tell the story.. how far is it from Oriental to Severna Park?) 11 Days....And we stayed at a Marina.. everynight.

Did you really think I'd do without my Satellite dish and big-screen? And besides.. I killed the batteries everyday posting here while underway... Had no choice but to go to a Marina and plug in....

Now I need the Amid-ships-Helix. I'm nothing without it. Gear Envy... !!!


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Just unbolt the lead mine from amidships, it'll hold you down. Or tie off to a tree for a nice private back porch.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Isn't that Chesapeake bay water looking so inviting?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

halekai36 said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way and that you accept that photo as a properly set CQR...
> 
> I can assure you that anchor is not set. I have seen my own CQR set like that many times and when I backed down it un-set about 30% of the time! A properly set CQR will bury with the plow vertical just as a Delta will but it needs to be properly backed down on to to do this.


I can only speak from my own experience. Here's my most extreme anchoring experience.

Many years ago we ran a 26ft sailboat aground onto an exposed offshore sandbank. It was our first outing in a new boat, which had not come with an anchor, but I had put aboard a tiny 15lb CQR from my old dayboat. No chain though.

When we went aground it was almost calm and it seemed just a matter of waiting for the tide to return. We tied the anchor to a length of rope and rowed it out into deep water behind us.

But when the tide turned a strong onshore wind sprang up. By the time the tide started to rise, we had 25kts of wind and BIG breakers around us. The boat started to float, hammering on the sand as the breakers lifted and slammed it down. Everything depended on the anchor holding as the bows turned round to point seaward and we could get off.

It was touch and go. The boat was thrown onto beam ends, but the anchor held, and we turned. Then, at the last moment, a big breaker surged us back and the anchor rope snapped, but we were able to use the engine to blast clear.

A week later on the spring tide we went out again to recover our anchor. It was buried on its side just as yours is shown, perhaps a little deeper. A 15lb CQR had held firm against a force great enough to snap a new 7/16" dacron rope, which had failed at the knot, a bowline. I don't know what the breaking strains involved are, but it must be least a ton of snatching load. If that doesn't represent a well-set anchor, I don't know what does.

(A postscript to the above, that day we found not one but two anchors on the sandbar. The second was also a CQR, dug so hard in that it had indeed turned into the vertical position, so deep that it was impossible to dig out before the tide returned. But at least I recovered its chain, which served me well for many years after.)


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Pea Soup.

(this pic is becoming as popular as Hal's "Red Boat" it's been posted so many times...)   

Chuck often uses a poorly casted fishing lure as a "shore" anchor.... 

Nice Save there Commodore!


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## BigAssHam (Nov 5, 2007)

Wait!!!! You forgot to add another extremely important anchoring technique:

When anchoring, place the bow of the boat approximately 20 yards from where you want the anchor to be... and using all your might... THROW the anchor as far as you can! This will make you look like a professional yachtsman and you will be the envy of the anchorage.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

BigAssHam said:


> Wait!!!! You forgot to add another extremely important anchoring technique:
> 
> When anchoring, place the bow of the boat approximately 20 yards from where you want the anchor to be... and using all your might... THROW the anchor as far as you can! This will make you look like a professional yachtsman and you will be the envy of the anchorage.


Oh yes, that is a very good set technique. If you can swing it over your head a bit, like a lasso, even better. That's almost as useful as the "lower it till it touches bottom" set.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I'm going to disagree with the 80% astern horsepower recommendation as it's misleading as to purpose and inaccurate in theory.

As to halekai's HP numbers and force, they're all well and good but we're not using our anchor to stop the rotation of an engine. On a moderate to small boat with an all chain rode you might have to use 80% of your power, but not because it's 80%.

What is setting your anchor is inertia. We know from the Rocky & Bullwinkle Show that inertia has something to do with mass and velocity, or weight and speed anyways. If you drop and set your anchor and then back down on it to set, to a 7-10:1 scope, and then shorten up to scope desired, what is setting your anchor is the weight of the boat and it's speed over the ground astern; inertia-even momentum, if you will.

If you're on a ten ton boat you may well be able to bury your anchor quite deep by backing down slowly. If you're on an even heavier vessel, and you back down 100-200 feet at 80% astern propulsion you may rip your windlass and chain locker out. Conversely, on a smaller, lighter boat you may not generate enough inertia to properly set your anchor unless you've an excess of rode out so as to build up momentum. Different boats, and different conditions, require different techniques.

Experiment with yours as halekai has obviously done. Take a quick dive over the side to confirm what you feel. 

I also advocate more rather than less chain as the chain does a good part of the holding by virtue of weight and catenary.

The previous remarks on signs of dragging should be remembered. Anchor alarms, be they GPS or Loran, etc..., are about worthless in my opinion. If you've got enough scope out they're going to be giving you false alarms, that is, if you've programmed them accurately enough to reflect dragging. Your fathometer or depth sounder alarm is likely to be more reliable. Couple that with anchor bearings, day and night versions as necessary, and you'll be fine.

Chain rode is easier to determine if dragging. It's worth dragging an anchor to observe the phenomena-intentionally dragging one on short scope that is. The chain will do the bunny hop as we used to call it. As it tightens and releases the chain will vibrate and give a hop, and repeat the same thing. If you're feeling vibration on an all chain rode, you're probably dragging.

A rode of line is tougher to determine but you'll want to look for the bunny hop also and the slack followed by tight of the rode.

If you've got a stand-by anchor ready, maybe in the cockpit as Dog suggested, don't throw it over the stern if you become aware that you're dragging. Deploy it from the bow or, if from the stern, walk it to the bow. Unless you have to for some reason, there is nothing worse than being moored fore and aft. The stern bower removes all ship-handling abilities you have until cast off. It'll also keep you from swinging which the rest of the anchorage is probably counting on you doing.

If you're confronted with an area where swing room is unavailable with an impending wind or tide shift, you can moor. Mooring also does one other important thing; it reduces yawing, or "horsing" around. Horsing about is a common cause for breaking anchor and dragging. There are three ways to moor.

Standard moor.
If you're to confront a strong reversing tide or wind, with little room to swing you will head into the prevailing wind/tide and drop anchor. Back down to double your intended scope, or where you want to drop the second anchor, and let go the second anchor. Motor back ahead to set the second anchor. When the wind or tide shifts to the opposite direction you will remain essentially where anchored originally.

Standard moor-storm conditions.
Determine the direction of predominant wind anticipated. Approximately one third of the scope to be employed should be used as a distance offset. With the bow pointed in the direction of predicted wind, motor a distance to starboard (port) off of your intended moored position line equal to the distance offset calculated. Drop your starboard (port) anchor and set it. It is helpful if this anchor is buoyed. Now motor ahead and to port (starboard) until you are the same distance offset to port (starboard) of your final moored position, and perpendicular to where the first anchor was dropped. Let go the port (starboard) anchor and set it. Adjust to an even scope. You will now be riding to two anchors, the rodes of which make a 90 degree angle which is bisected by your vessel and the predicted wind direction. Another-words, a line drawn between the two anchors will be perpendicular to the wind. You will minimize horsing by doing so. If time is of the essence and you've practised this moor, you can drop the first anchor and set it going ahead, veering off to drop the second, and then backing down on both. Note though that, you must get your full scope out on the first and, even then, particularly in a sailboat with line for rode, you risk fouling your prop.

The Hammerlock moor.
It may on occasion be found that a second anchor dropped to short scope, nearly up and down, will reduce horsing. It's usually better though to do a hammerlock moor, particularly when conditions are worsening and the vessel is already horsing around. The vessel will be sheering back and forth, and the second anchor should be dropped at the limit of the sheer to the opposite side of the deployed anchor. (you can drop to either side of the sheer but you may cross anchor rodes as you ride-on a boat this may be more fun to uncross later than what you wish) If your primary anchor is at 7:1 the second should be about 2-3:1. The second anchor may drag, which is OK as it's purpose is to stabilize the boat and prevent horsing which will break loose the primary anchor. In practise, it will grab and hold until the strain is such that it drags, sending some strain to the primary anchor, at which point it will usually reset and repeat as conditions warrant. This is a very secure method of mooring and many a hurricane in restricted waters has been ridden out moored in such fashion. If you're able to plan ahead for a hurricane or such you'll want to anchor so that the primary anchor takes the strain through the predicted wind shift and that the two anchors continue to offer an open 'V' by their rodes to the wind.

The hammerlock moor was originally discovered riding out a hurricane in the Chesapeake. It's original, and most effective, method of deployment is to cross the anchor rodes. If your bow chocks are so close together as to make the distance between them unappreciable there is nothing to be gained from doing so. On older ships, where the hawse pipes had great lateral offset, there was an advantage to crossing the rodes. On a boat a similar advantage can be realised if the boat lends itself to it, albeit at some cost to the topsides paint. If you're able to lead your rodes somewhat aft, to where the strain on each is angled off a fore and aft direction, crossing the rodes in the hammerlock will tend to move the center of strain aft and thus minimize horsing all the more. Another words, the pivot point is no longer at the stem but somewhere further aft.

It should be noted that a properly set anchor can still drag. (Huh?) You can even dive on your anchor and find her well set, but drag she might. The seabed is rarely homogeneous and it's quite possible that, even though you've anchored in sand, there might well be a decent sized rock (read, bolder) under the sand. As the wind comes up, and your anchor buries deeper under the strain, the anchor may come into contact with that rock and this may cause it to turn or twist. That might well result in the anchor tripping itself out and dragging. An anchor watch should be maintained. If you're completely comfortable you're either on anchor watch or you shouldn't be quite so comfortable.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

BigAssHam said:


> Wait!!!! You forgot to add another extremely important anchoring technique:
> 
> When anchoring, place the bow of the boat approximately 20 yards from where you want the anchor to be... and using all your might... THROW the anchor as far as you can! This will make you look like a professional yachtsman and you will be the envy of the anchorage.


Ahh yes I fogot the venerable "Gilligan Toss" !!!!!!


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

sailaway21 said:


> If you're on an even heavier vessel, and you back down 100-200 feet at 80% astern propulsion you may rip your windlass and chain locker out.


Unfortunately that isn't quite what I suggested.

I suggested backing down *slowly*, not at 80%, and playing out rode and *snub checking along the way* *while letting the anchor stop the boat*. Only after the anchor line is taught again do I apply 80% reverse thrust, from a stop, to finish setting the anchor...

I have found that from diving the inertia of a slowly moving boat even a 17,000 pound vessel is not always enough to get a full deep penetration and usually, not always, a few substantial bursts of reverse are enough to finish burying the anchor properly..

Bellow is what I actually suggested in post #1 you don't BACK DOWN from the get go at 80% throttle!!! Sorry for any confusion..

Again, this works for me in my current home cruising waters from RI to the Canadian Maritimes.. In the Chess pudding mud it may not be necessary or you'll need 1000 feet of rode to get to the actual bottom of the bay..?



halekai36 said:


> * #2) Prepare & set:* Once you've determined your "spot" calculate your scope as described above. For the best results use 7:1 for setting. 5:1 is an absolute bare minimum for setting and should be avoided if you want consistent results. As you approach your "spot" shorten the dinghy painter so it will not foul the prop when backing down! Slide the gear shifter into neutral and gently glide past and over where you actually want the anchor to set. *Once beyond your "spot" slip it into reverse and get the boat going in a straight line backwards but SLOWLY at perhaps .3 to .5 knots! *
> *
> #3 Play out the rode:* As you begin to move backwards begin playing out the rode. DO NOT just drop a pile of chain or rode to the bottom it will tangle the flukes! The rode must be played out while moving backwards and gently and methodically. As you begin to get to about a 4:1 (your rode should ALWAYS BE MARKED IN FEET OR METERS) gently snub the anchor for a test bite. This will orient the anchor to a proper setting angle if it has not already happened. If you begin to feel resistance let off your snub and continue playing out line until you hit 7:1+ gently snubbing along the way every now and then. The greater the scope used in setting the better the result and better the odds of a first try set will be..
> *
> #4 Setting the Anchor:* *As the boat approaches a 7:1 put it in neutral and let the weight of the boat and the remaining momentum partially set the anchor and come to a stop. Once the boat has finished stopping, and is back to a taught line, not jerked forward from nylon rode stretch, run the engine up to full cruise RPM (usually 80% of max rated throttle) and finish setting or burying the anchor! If the anchor moves or drags you'll need to start over!*


It should be noted, as Sway pointed out, that in many instances the "inertia" of the boat in some bottoms may have already set the anchor! Adding the 80% reverse thrust only adds to and serves to confirm with more certainty that you have a solid set. It may even set it a tad deeper... Think of the 80% as both a TEST of your initial inertia set and a final setting technique.. Do NOT back down at 80% from the start with 250 feet of rode out there or you will either "rip the bit off your bow" or never get a set....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

This is one of the scarier things about making the leap someday from a little trailer sailor to a larger boat. I have a 1000# boat a little under 18' long. My outboard motor is a pure kicker - no tranny. The good news is that I can raise the board and draw under a foot so I can get in where waves are smaller and scope math can be done on my fingers and toes - unless there is a tide. If I decide to take my boat on the Pirates Lookout trip this year (last year I crewed), I will probably have to join the big raft up. It's a good thing I like the upper Pamlico so much; tides are virtually nonexistant and the bottom is mostly soft. I am thinking I need to replace the worthless little fluke the PO provided and get a 18# river anchor (a very common fishing anchor around here used for boats the size of mine with good results).


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you're going to bother with an 18# anchor, get a 22 Rocna or Manson Supreme instead. Far more useful and can be used as a kedge for a larger boat in the future.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Dog,

I looked at the Rocna. The paramedics just left... 

For my little boat, I am looking at anchors more like this:
Greenfield River Anchor - BoatersWorld.com
(if I get that one, and there is a BoatersWorld in town, it would be the 20#, the description is for the 12#)

I see the Manson is about half what the Rocna costs and the Delta about half the Manson, but still about 5 times more than the river anchor.
Manson Loyd's Certified Supreme Anchor - SUP15 - BoatersWorld.com
Delta Fast-Set Anchor - 0057406 - BoatersWorld.com

In between, this one looks interesting:
Plastimo Horizon Claw Anchor - 01110705 - BoatersWorld.com

One issue I am well aware of is that the cheaper river anchors are really fresh water anchors, so it might need replacement from corrosion if it it gets damamged and isn't rinsed and repaired quickly.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, but the river anchor performs far worse in any sort of real blow than does the Manson Supreme, Rocna or Delta.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Andy,
If I were you I would look into a small Fortress.
They are easy to stow, compact, lightweight, and seem to hold pretty good for what they are; which is a Fluke type.

This *MIGHT* even work for you. I did not check the spec's of the anchor against your boat.
I only did a very quick search here on the at Sail Net Store.
Fortress Commando Small Craft Anchor System Shop.Sailnet.com - sailing resources, shopping, sail, blogs

I reccomend you keep looking and researching before you purchase that River Anchor.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailortjk1 said:


> Andy,
> If I were you I would look into a small Fortress.
> They are easy to stow, compact, lightweight, and seem to hold pretty good for what they are; which is a Fluke type.
> 
> I reccomend you keep looking and researching before you purchase that River Anchor.


The cheap fluke I have is pretty much a knock off of that except with the slip ring to get it loose on the off chance you actually get it to dig in. Maybe I need to give it another chance with more rope and chain. When I have hand set it in the shallows, it has held pretty well, but I plowed about half of Chocowinity Bay on Saturday trying to anchor while I finished rigging in 10-15 kts and chop. It really wasn't that deep:








but I probably let too little line out and had a low scope ratio.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Andy,

I'm with TJK and SD on this. That river anchor isn't anything you'd want aboard your boat -- not if you want a good night's sleep.

While I also agree with TJK that the Fortress/Commando anchors would likely work well for you, I do get the impression that price point is equally important to your selection. My advice would be to purchase the reasonably priced Horizon Claw (Bruce-style) that you linked to, along with a short length of chain and line rode. I think this arrangement will be more than adequate for your boat.

We have the little 2kg claw for our 12' sailing dinghy and it is a great anchor!

P.S. We considered the Commando anchor for our dinghy, but fortunately we took a practice run at assembly before buying it. While it's not overly difficult to put it together, the reality is that it is awkward and too time consuming. So you would need to leave the anchor assembled in order to have it ready for emergency deployment -- which somewhat obviates the compact size of the Commando package.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

JRP/TJK/SD,

OK, I believe you. I like JRP's polite description of a cheap bastige  as well as the advice about the claw. It really isn't that much more. I am looking at a couple of possibilities for my first on water overnight in my boat. One is a raft up and the other is far enough up the Pamlico that tides are no factor and I could anchor very shallow and run a safety line to shore.

I will get new rode/chain first and try the fluke with more scope.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

A couple of more thoughts. (For what its worth)

Yes more chain will likely be a big improvement.

For some reason, I don't know why, the Fortress/Gaurdians seem to set and hold better than your typical fluke type. I found this out on our old Cal 25II. 

We currently have a claw and like it alot for our grounds; Lake Michigan; Mostly Mud and Sand. Make sure you have some where to stow the Claw. Bow roller? Anchor Locker? Etc. I would imagine it could be a pain if you did not have the propper set up. Ours is on a bow with elecric windlass.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Great discussion and debate. Sailing provides the opportunity for more opinions than most of us can handle but I always find something new to learn in the process. My experience with anchoring very much supports the original post and I would really emphasize that some styles of anchors just do not work in some conditions. The hard sand of the pier in Santa Cruz, CA would skid a 35 lb CQR along the bottom no matter the technique or the scope. We dropped the same sized Bruce and it set instantly. The soft mud of SF bay simply oozes my 45lb Delta along in a slow drag where my FX37 grabs and holds. So I would suggest carrying a variety of styles and be willing to change to if the set seems "iffy".


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd have to second what Harry said. You really need at least a plow or next gen anchor and a fluke type anchor as a basic minimum on any cruising boat.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Barney,
I'd recommend the Fortress with a length of chain of 6-18 feet (whatever you're comfortable carrying, 18 would be better). And the fortress is aluminum so it's light. Fortress generally does at or near the top of most tests of fluked anchors and bests some others of much greater cost as well. It also can be broken down for stowage below.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I am prowling the NC sounds. The bottom is almost entirely sand and mud. If you hit something hard, it's probably the hull of an old sunken ship (some guy who didn't anchor properly, no doubt  ). If I make the big raft up in a few weeks, I will have to see what the local old salts are using.

EDIT - I see Sway just joined the party. 18' ? What size of chain (in other directions  ) ?


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

I'll second that (Fortress). You can't beat them for ultimate holding power and value, ease of handling, etc.

I would NOT spend a penny on "knockoffs", "river anchors", or any of the other hundreds of weirdo, lookalike anchors. They are false economy....get a genuine Fortress, Danforth HT, or other, not a knockoff.

Bill


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## beej67 (Apr 2, 2008)

I didn't see this mentioned, but when setting 2 anchors, I always make sure I have a different total length of rode fed for each anchor. That way, if one drags it won't foul the other one.

Does that make sense, or am I an idiot?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

beej67 said:


> I didn't see this mentioned, but when setting 2 anchors, I always make sure I have a different total length of rode fed for each anchor. That way, if one drags it won't foul the other one.
> 
> Does that make sense, or am I an idiot?


If they both drag there's a good chance that they'll foul each other regardless of length of rode. The good news though is that, if you've spaced them far enough apart, one of them will probably reset before this is an issue. Or, you'll be aground, which is _another_ version of "made fast to the shore or ground".


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

arbarnhart said:


> I am prowling the NC sounds. The bottom is almost entirely sand and mud. If you hit something hard, it's probably the hull of an old sunken ship (some guy who didn't anchor properly, no doubt  ). If I make the big raft up in a few weeks, I will have to see what the local old salts are using.
> 
> EDIT - I see Sway just joined the party. 18' ? What size of chain (in other directions  ) ?


Probably 1/4". If you go longer with the chain you can go lighter, shorter I'd definitely go at least 1/4".


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Stupid question of the day..... Is there a point where you can have too great of a scope? Assuming there is no problem with the swing distance and hitting another boat, why not just dump all of the line overboard? I know that you have to haul it all back up again and that can be a pain in the a** but if I am safe at 7:1 am I any safer at 10:1? I'm the type that always thinks that more is better but sometimes that can get dangerous.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Big Mick-

Too much scope can mean that you'll swing into obstacles... rocks, reefs, etc. The larger the swinging circle, the greater the chance you'll have missed something that is dangerous to your boat. This is especially true in less frequently traveled waters. 

Two years ago, we anchored in Brace's Cove, up on Cape Ann. As we were motoring into the cove to anchor, we found a previously unknown and uncharted rock that came within 5' of the surface at mid tide.


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

Assuming you won't swing into anything, more scope is always better, but there is a diminishing return:


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Thanks..*

Tim,

Thanks for posting that graph I could not remember where I'd seen it before!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

From that graph... anything more than 8:1 is really not going to help much.


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## jbondy (Mar 28, 2001)

Last Saturday we had a club raftup. There were 7 boats all secured by a 6lb Danforth lunch bucket in 15kts sustained. The middle boat was a J30. On one side there was a J24 and me (Pearson 323). On the other side we had a 2 C&C 29s and a J29. Hanging off the stern of the J30 was a Capri 25. I have to figure the J30's technique was impeccable! I kept thinking we would have to deploy my 20lb CQR (and I was ready), but there was nary a slip. I must admit I hardly left my boat, expecting to have to react on a moment's notice. Kind of took some of the fun out of rafting, but heavy lies the crown ....

We mostly wander around western Long Island Sound. Does anyone have any advice what would be a good complement to our venerable CQR? We haven't really anchored that much, but we recently installed a windlass with the intention of doing more. I expect from what I've read in this thread that the recommendation would be for one of the new high tech anchors to become the primary with the CQR the secondary.

TIA


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

jbondy said:


> Does anyone have any advice what would be a good complement to our venerable CQR?


A Rocna or Manson Supreme would be a great choice as would a Spade. Unfortunately the Spades have become almost non existent in the US lately and have become more pricey than the better performing Rocna..



jbondy said:


> I expect from what I've read in this thread that the recommendation would be for one of the new high tech anchors to become the primary with the CQR the secondary.
> 
> TIA


Yep or the CQR as a lunch hook or stern anchor especially a 20 pounder on a 323 (read: light).... A Manson Supreme 25 or Rocna 22 will dwarf the 20lb CQR in terms of surface area which is what is holding your vessel once set.....


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Big Mick said:


> Stupid question of the day..... Is there a point where you can have too great of a scope? Assuming there is no problem with the swing distance and hitting another boat, why not just dump all of the line overboard? I know that you have to haul it all back up again and that can be a pain in the a** but if I am safe at 7:1 am I any safer at 10:1? I'm the type that always thinks that more is better but sometimes that can get dangerous.


While a road of line has fairly steadily diminishing returns much after 7-8:1 as shown in the graph, increasing chain length whether on an all chain rode or a combination rode is always of benefit. Aside from the holding that the chain provides on the bottom by weight alone an anchor let out to great chain scope will reset much more easily if tripped. The holding power of a long catenary cannot be underestimated.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Back to scope, I recall a study a few years back where a correlation between optimal scope and anchoring depth was found to exist. This chart does not seem to factor anchoring depth. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I seem to recall that at greater anchoring depths, a lower scope ratio achieved the same holding power, due to the catenary effect.



catamount said:


> Assuming you won't swing into anything, more scope is always better, but there is a diminishing return:


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

As noted, the chart I posted is for a theoretical "weightless" rode, which has no catenary effect. It's simply a vector resolution of the forces acting on the anchor when the rode is bar-tight. (And as I understand it, even heavy all-chain rodes can sometimes be pulled bar-tight, at least instantaneously, during storms, which is why an elastic snubber is highly recommended for such a rode.)

FWIW, if you are on a predominantly nylon rode, your scope increases slightly when the rode elongates under load


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

JRP,
On an all chain rode in depths greater than 20 fathoms scope may be reduced and the same holding power achieved. Indeed, on large ships, excessive scope could lead to chain failure just due to the weight of the catenary. I say "could" because most ships, and certainly not boats, carry enough rode for this to become a factor.

Some data from Naval Shiphandling by R.S. Crenshaw for anchoring under "normal" conditions for a relatively light destroyer may be illustrative.

Depth of water up to 7 fathoms......30 fathoms of chain
Depth of water 7 to 12 fathoms......45 fathoms of chain
Depth of water 12 to 20 fathoms.....3 times the depth
"In any case the longer the scope of chain, the less likely the ship is to drag."

I'd note to the above that destroyers are relatively light, low windage, ships and that most vessels use a greater scope than listed.

Also from Crenshaw:

*Relative holding power of an anchor*

Bottom type Factor of holding power

Firm sand.................................. 1.0
Stiff-dense clay (plastic).............. 1.5
Sticky clay of medium density......... 0.66
Soft mud.................................... 0.33
Loose coarse sand....................... 0.33
Gravel ....................................... 0.33
Hard bottom (rock-shale-boulders).. 0.00*

*
Value applies if anchor is unable to dig in. If anchor were set or hooked under rock, holding power would increase greatly.

I'd emphasize that proper construction of anchor rode, condition of that rode, and proper deployment of the anchor are generally far greater concerns than the type of anchor selected. Indeed the possesion of a second anchor, so as to moor the vessel, is in my opinion more important dollar for dollar than the specific type of anchor selected.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Sailaway,

Great info there.

I should have been more specific in my previous comment. The study I recall was addressing anchoring in greater depths than most of us usually drop our hooks in. To be clear, it was not suggesting modifying the standard 7-1 scope recommendation for typical anchoring depths. Rather, it was exploring the relationship between anchoring depth, scope, and holding power at less optimal anchoring depths. Like over 40-50 feet, which is deeper than most of us usually care to anchor.

EDIT: However, there was some suggestion that at intermediate depths, and as depths became greater, a progressively lower ratio of scope could be used effectively.

In fact, the graphic previously posted reminds me of the study. If you were to change the vertical axis to depth, and change the horizontal axis to length of scope (x 10), it does a pretty good job of showing the catenary effect on a 200-250' chain rode at 100 foot depth.


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## betodas (Oct 3, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> A Rocna or Manson Supreme would be a great choice as would a Spade. Unfortunately the Spades have become almost non existent in the US lately and have become more pricey than the better performing Rocna..
> 
> I know this is a late response but oh well. I got really lucky at West Marine. The spade anchor's are not being sold any more there, so any they have left are REALLY cheap. I bought a steel S40 for $70 a couple of months ago. Last week I found an aluminum A40 for only $50. I was looking for a light, cheap (but good holding) stern anchor for use when on the beach with the family. I was relunctantly going to buy gaurdian or even an undersized danforth just for that task when I saw the aluminum spade up on a shelf. It's the smallest (and lightest) spade so it's perfect.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

A spade at that price is a great lunch hook. Danforths are the usual choice, but if "lunch" includes a wee nap or time spent below during which weather can creep up on you, the spade might buy you a little more time than the Danforth if the wind pipes up.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Hey Maine Sail, an excellent post and I agree with every detail.

Camaraderie: So Fortress advises only 6' of chain on their achors. They obviously have not watched their anchors take off like a kite in any kind of tidal or river current.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Well...they didn't say what SIZE of 6ft. chain!


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

*Another View on Anchoring*

In the January 2009 issue of Sail, there is an article entitled "Take Precautions Early" by Connie McBride describing lessons learned from Hurricane Omar while in St. Croix. On anchoring, here are the pertinent items:

Chafe: Whether a boat is anchored, moored, or tied to a dock, the most common failure will be chafed lines.

Rode: Inadequate scope caused many boats to drag ashore.

Anchors: There is no such thing as deploying too many anchors or too large an anchor. When divers checked the anchors after Omar, the ones that had buried themselves the deepest and therefore probably held the best in the harbor's sandy bottom were Bruce-style anchors. Some had dug in so deep that they couln't be recovered.

In 1999, when I purchased my new C320, I looked hard and long to determine what was the best anchor combination for my boat. Almost every serious cruising boat (and the reviews supported this) had two different anchors of the following: a CRQ plow, a Bruce, or a Danforth type fluke anchor. Delta types were described as a less satisfactory, cheap varient of the CRQ plow (in recent times, they seem to have become very popular also.) I went with a 33 lb. Bruce and a 22 lb. Danforth type. Additionally, I have a 43 lb. Danforth type storm anchor. I have thusfar not anchored in extreme conditions, so I can't personally verify their performance in storm conditions, but I'll stay with these for now.

Tests run by West Marine and Cruising World (or Sail) several years ago wherein they used a large power boat to test various anchor types showed the CRQ, Bruce, and Danforth anchors to perform badly (much worse than the real life usage would suggest), and the Fortress, Manson, Rocka, Spade types were all deemed vastly superior to the old standbys. I understand that new technology improves situations, but I find these results somewhat disturbing. All of the superior anchors are very expensive, especially vs. the Bruce type and Danforth type....surprised? Now, if the cheap anchor (Danforth type) had proven the best, then there would be no impact on increased sales....everyone already has these and they are cheap. But if the tests could make lots of people doubt the adequacy of the old standbys and if the new anchors were priced very high, there is lots of money to be made from the new style anchors, since few people own them, and potential loss of a boat in a storm strikes fear in any owner's heart. Could this be what is going on?

In our area of NC, the bottom is usually sand or mud, and without a doubt, if there is one standard anchor, it is the Danforth type. In the area of the Chesapeake Bay that I'm familiar with, the situation is the same.

On my 19 ft. motorboat, once at a regatta, I could not satisfactorily set the Danforth type anchor no matter how many times I tried and even though other boats with the same type anchor were successfully doing so (mud bottom). But every other time (many, many times) in the same river and at the coast, this very same anchor always set on the first attempt. So what seems to work in one situation may not in another.

So given the above, should we all be rushing out to get a couple of the expensive new anchors, or are we being sold a bill of goods?


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## betodas (Oct 3, 2008)

I get most of the points but I can say from my (very limited) experience that the nex-gen anchors are better. 
I bought my boat with a Danforth style anchor. I have horror stories with that anchor. setting, dragging, pinched fingers, etc. 
I then bought a Bruce(style) and tested it on the beach and on the boat. It was alright but I could drag it at will. Most boaters on any forum will tell you that you need to over-size a Bruce.
I then tested a friends Danforth(real) and had problems setting and dragging. Not as many as with the copy but if it's not close to 100% successful, I don't want it. 
I then bought my current anchor, Spade. I LOVE it. Has set first try 100% of the time. Has never dragged. I recently bought an aluminum Spade as a sterm anchor. I've tested that one and I also love it.
I bought a Sword anchor a while back. It also works really well but when testing it on the beach, I had problems setting. Never any problem off the boat though.
I also bought a Delta (just for kick). It works well. But after testing, I can see why it trails behind the Rocna, Supreme and Spade. 
I rode in a friends boat who has a Surpreme. It worked flawlessly. But I couldn't test it further because it wasn't my boat. But from what I could see, it's excellent.

Disclaimer: I'm a bit obsessed with Anchors. I buy them, test them, return them, research them. My wife thinks I'm sick. I'm not even a cruiser. We don't go out in high wind because of the wife. I'm definately not on MaineSail's level on anchor research but I'm gettin there.  I plan on getting a Raya next just to support a fellow Brazillian.


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## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

right now my boat is anchored by the inner harbour on the chessy. it has a 33 lb dansforth of the front with 15 feet of 5/16 chain, about a 6 to 1 scope. then my little 17 dansforth of the back with 6 feet of chain on about a 3 or 4 to 1 scope. my boat has not moved in about 2 months including many 40 knot days across the beam. it has been a windy winter so far up here. by the way where i am anchored have to be the worst on the bay the bottom is covered in trash. 

having a modern over priced anchor that will reset is nice but having a cheap anchor ( 2 of em ) with the boat not swinging is priceless

sorry i seperated my shoulder a few days ago vicoden and posting on the internet dont mix, cant spell or type


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## betodas (Oct 3, 2008)

Scotty, One of my personal beleifs is "if it works for you, who cares what others are doing". So If it works, who cares about the nex-gen anchors.
The reason I bought one (very cheaply I might add) was because I had bad luck with the Danforth style anchor. Ironically, one of my boating buddies has never had an issue with his Danforth everytime we go out. There are a ton of people who swear by the Danforth, Fortress, Gaurdian, etc. 
I frequent another Boating Forum where a particular boater ONLY uses a grapnel anchor. Go Figure.


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## ANCORALATINA (Aug 24, 2008)

*A Few Comments From The Other Side Of The World*

*Great post!* - I like very much the scope part. Scope is a very important secret in the art of anchoring and as Halekai pointed out, they are many mistakes that can be done&#8230;&#8230;

I don't believe that anchoring in the South Hemisphere, (_where people are walking upside down _ ), will change anything of the anchoring rules.

If I fully agree with most comments, they are also some points where I slightly disagree:



> MAINE SAIL: Why is the chain important? The chain serves a few purposes: 1) It serves as a weight to help prevent the anchor line from snapping tight and it keeps a curve or catenary in it during mild to moderate winds helping to keep the angle of attack on the anchor correct.
> BTRAYFORS: The catenary provided by heavy chain is hard to beat, and it take a very strong wind to straighten out that chain.


Why is the chain important? - first to attach the anchor to the boat  (_or the boat to the anchor_) but also to avoid chaffing of the rode against the aggressive sea bottoms. 
- Catenary of the chain is only useful with light winds; with strong winds ( >_30/40 knots_) where catenary is the most needed, the chain is nearly bar tight without catenary effect. (_See the Catenary part of the very interesting web page:_ Tuning an Anchor Rode)



> Sailaway21: The holding power of a long catenary cannot be underestimated..


Right, the holding power of a chain alone on a sandy bottom is about twice its weight, not underestimated but negligible by comparison to the ratio holding/weight of any anchor!



> MAINE SAIL:in high winds a sentinel or kellet may be needed to maintain catenary


Forget about the kellet, like the chain catenary, it works well with light winds, when you don't need it (_see again the kellet discussion on:_ Tuning an Anchor Rode)



> Plumper: I'd have to argue with the 80% power going backwards
> TAK: I agree with the others that it is best to let it set first before tugging under power
> BTRAYFORS : I agree that no sailboat has enough power to drag a well-set anchor. If it drags, you either didn't set it correctly, the bottom is hopeless, or your ground tackle is either inappropriate to the bottom type or WAY too light.


A well set anchor can, without possible discussion, hold 80% of the back engine power of a sailboat; If the anchor is dragging, either the bottom doesn't have a good holding (soft mud) or is it time to reconsider your ground tackle gear&#8230;



> Camaderie: I have no objection to a test "haul" in reverse, but I think it should be delayed unless conditions are deteriorating&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;...


ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! BEFORE conditions are deteriorating, you MUST be well anchored. What will happen when doing your back test, if you realize that the holding of the bottom is not good enough?



> Plumper: Doesn't the anchor tend to set when the wind slowly builds and puts more and more strain on the anchor?


Yes true! But again what will happen if the anchor doesn't set?? Better going back at 80% engine power when the conditions are good.



> Rocinante33: the bow person should reach around the pulpit and put his/her hand on the rode (loosely, please). In this manner you can often feel the anchor skipping across the bottom if it has not set correctly.
> 
> Xort: Put a foot on the chain as you power back to set the anchor. If it's dragging, you'll feel it vibrating and jumping.


This was true with the old generation of anchors (CQR - Bruce - Danforth) but not longer true with the "next gen" anchors (Rocna - Supreme - Spade - Raya) as they usually set so abruptly, that you will never feel the vibration of the rode.



> T35chef: 1) Attach a float the anchor so others know where your anchor is. I easily made one from a crab pot float.


Like *Sailingdog* : I'd disagree about the float. They are more disadvantages with it than benefits: like other boats using it as a mooring buoy, trapping propellers of passing by boats, or even your own propeller or your ruder or your keel&#8230; Use a trip line *ONLY* when you know you are anchoring in a full bottom (_like some ports in the Med_) or in a rocky area.



> LynW: This CQR has its point buried down and is well set,


Absolutely not! A properly buried CQR should be vertical. 
When applying a pulling force to the one of the photo, you can't be sure that it will set. 
During almost all our anchors tests, we have seen plow anchors lying on their side and sliding endlessly. A very strange feature we observed, is that, when dragging, the plow anchors are completely inversing themselves with only the tip protruding from the sand, before turning down and digging in again.



> Big Mick: Is there a point where you can have too great of a scope?


The important characteristic of the scope is the resulting pulling angle on the anchor. More this angle is close to the horizontal, more the holding. As you can observe from the curve, a small variation of the smallest scope will give a large variation of the pulling angle, as with scope bigger than 8:1 to 10:1, a large variation of the scope will only slightly change the pulling angle.



> Scottyt: I plan on getting a Raya next just to support a fellow Brazilian.


*Many Many thanks Scottyt*, not that easy to participate to English speaking forums when English is not your mother tongue.. Is summer time here, and *I send to you all a warm ray of sun !*


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have used a danforth anchor with no problems so far. One night anchored behind the concrete ships on the lower Chesapeake, we were caught in a nasty blow that lasted most of the night. The anchor held fast, and when I pulled up the anchor the next morning the shaft was slightly bent.
The boat would ride side to the waves with the anchor line at 90 degrees the the boat...?? It was a very uncomfortable ride. Any thoughts?

Thanks 
Greg


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

ANCORALATINA said:


> *Great post!*
> 
> Xort: Put a foot on the chain as you power back to set the anchor. If it's dragging, you'll feel it vibrating and jumping.
> This was true with the old generation of anchors (CQR - Bruce - Danforth) but not longer true with the "next gen" anchors (Rocna - Supreme - Spade - Raya) as they usually set so abruptly, that you will never feel the vibration of the rode.


*"IF* it is dragging". 
Any anchor that is set and not dragging will not cause the chain to jump. Any anchor that *IS* dragging will cause the chain to jump. If the next gen anchors aren't dragging, then of course they will not cause the chain to jump. If a CQR is not dragging, the chain will not jump.


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## ANCORALATINA (Aug 24, 2008)

*I apologize, if I didn't explain myself well enough!*



> "IF it is dragging".
> Any anchor that is set and not dragging will not cause the chain to jump. Any anchor that IS dragging will cause the chain to jump. If the next gen anchors aren't dragging, then of course they will not cause the chain to jump. If a CQR is not dragging, the chain will not jump.


I apologize Xort, if I didn't explain myself well enough!

I believe that all sailors who have recently switched from an "Old Gen" anchor to a "NextGen" anchor have understood what I mean?

All "old Gen" anchors will first slide on the sea bottoms for some time (_distance_) before finding a grip. Then you can easily feel the rode jumping and vibrating!...

With any of the "Next Gen" anchors, the anchor usually will set within a shank length distance... not enough time to feel any vibration. In fact, if you are going too fast backward, you will feel like the boat bumping into a solid rock, stopping abruptly; a feeling that you will never have with any of the "old Gen" anchors.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

ANCORALATINA said:


> not that easy to participate to English speaking forums when English is not your mother tongue.. Is summer time here, and *I send to you all a warm ray of sun !*


_
Tudo bem_...your English is fine, and besides, we are quite used to Portuguese syntax here.

As long as the discussion doesn't turn into an advertisement, I welcome the comments by anchor manufacturers to this thread and others like it. It is clear to me that anchor technology is still advancing, and that while there are many situations in which an older design will work for one boat in one place, the ideal is to find a design that will hold in the greatest number of situations. I highly doubt that, short of firing a grapnel from an explosive charge directly into the seabed, we will ever have a "one answer" anchoring solution, but if new designs can give most yachts equivalent holding power with less weight, or in a wider number of bottom types, I would never regret hearing an argument in their favour.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

ancora
are you saying the next gen anchors will never drag no matter what?

I did switch from CQR to manson supreme. I've yet to be "jolted" by a quick setting Manson. I have not dragged either; yet.


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## ANCORALATINA (Aug 24, 2008)

xort said:


> ancora
> are you saying the next gen anchors will never drag no matter what?


Absolutely not!.. Just saying that "next Gen" anchors are setting much faster and in a broader type of sea bottoms than the "old Gen" anchors&#8230; and nothing else!


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

thanks for clarifying


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

Maine Sail,
Interesting post. I for one will admit to not being very good at anchoring. Back in the 80s it seemed like every time I anchored for the night, it dragged. So I could never get a sound sleep. My Etap 26 came with a 37 lb Danforth style anchor, that seems to hold very well, here in NJ. However the last time I anchored out for the night I got a rude surprise in the morning. We ate breakfast, and I started pulling up the anchor. Out of the water comes the rode at the 50 foot mark with 3 very tiny strands all that are left! We had anchored on the outside edge of a fleet of boats at around 11 PM. In the morning we were surrounded by additional power boats. One of them must have run across my rode in the dark!

Short of hanging mines on the rode to sink the bastards, what can you do about that?


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## betodas (Oct 3, 2008)

ANCORALATINA said:


> *Many Many thanks Scottyt*, not that easy to participate to English speaking forums when English is not your mother tongue.. Is summer time here, and *I send to you all a warm ray of sun !*


Oi Ancora,

That was me who said that. May be I have to rethink it and get a Supreme instead.


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## ANCORALATINA (Aug 24, 2008)

> Betodas: Oi Ancora, That was me who said that. May be I have to rethink it and get a Supreme instead.


Oooopsss! I apologize Betodas, and thanks too for your king words!!



> GarryHLucas: However the last time I anchored out for the night I got a rude surprise in the morning. Out of the water comes the rode at the 50 foot mark with 3 very tiny strands all that are left! we were surrounded by additional power boats. One of them must have run across my rode in the dark!
> what can you do about that?


Perhaps this is where the "KELLET" may found a useful application, keeping the line down on the sea bottom.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*I finally got an answer..*

I finally got a question answered that has been nagging me for a while.

My three blade prop, in combination with my tranny and engine, at wide open throttle will develop a MAX of 880 lbs. of pull or thrust in reverse. This is a raw calculation and does not account for slip so in reality it is probably between 10-15% less efficient than 880 at WOT.

I like to know this because I set my anchor at 80% reverse throttle. The calculation at 80% accounting for slip is in the mid to low 500 pound range. Even at wide open throttle any anchor that can be dragged by 880 pounds of pull is not enough for a 30-38 footer..

My engine is 44hp and I swing a 16" three blade wheel. For the average 30-38 footer you would be at this level of reverse thrust or even less given HP & prop..

If you can drag your anchor in reverse at 80% throttle you should begin looking for a new anchor...!


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

*I guess I'm a bit anal....*

I created an Excel spreadsheet to calculate how much rode to let out for different scopes for different depths, based on my boat.

Here is a screen shot of it:










You can see the formula that I used near the top in the formula window: =((A3 + 2)*3)+3-25

A3 = water depth; the first '2' = the depth of my transducer below the water surface (it's actually closer to 1 ft down, but this adds just a little safety margin); the '3' is the desired scope i.e. 3:1 - for 5:1 scope, this number would be 5 etc.; the '25' is the length of chain I have at the end of my rode.

The depth actually goes down to 90', but I only took a screen shot of the top portion of the page.

I printed this and there is a copy in my chain locker. That way when the anchor is set my crew only needs to know the depth and the desired scope and can let out the proper amount of rode without doing a lot of mental calisthenics.

I also played around and created a rode calculator that can be be used for any boat:










Just put in your boat's info, depth and desired scope and it tells you how much rode to let out.

I'm sure after a while, with more experience, this 'training wheel' won't be required, but I found it very useful.

Let me know what you think.


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## betodas (Oct 3, 2008)

flyingwelshman said:


> I created an Excel spreadsheet to calculate how much rode to let out for different scopes for different depths, based on my boat.
> 
> Here is a screen shot of it:
> 
> ...


The formula should probably read a little differently. Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't the freeboard be added to the depth before subtracting the chain length? The formula you have has the free board being added to the chain length to be subtracted after you have multiplied the desired rode by the total depth.
Shouldn't it be =(B5*(B1+B3+E1))-E3
That way you have the desired rode (5:1) * your total depth (water depth + transducer + freeboard). Then subtract the chain.
So say you have a depth of 10 feet, transd is 2 feet and the free board is 3 feet. So you have a total depth of 15 feet. That would be 75 total feet of rode for a 5:1 ratio. subtract the 25 feet of chain and you should let out 50 feet of rode instead of the 38 listed.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Ummm*

Ummm why are you subtracting the chain?? Scope is simply total length figured as height from bow chock to bottom at max water depth.

A 20 foot max water depth , including height from chock to water, for 7:1 would require 140' from chock to anchor or 7X20=140.. You don't need an excel spread sheet to do simple math in your head...


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

In my opinion applying too much engine power is not a good idea. Normally a sailing boat can travel towards the wind (30-35 knots) with approximately 50% of its full power. That means applying 80% power in reverse is more than the power 30 -35 knots winds can apply to a boat.


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## betodas (Oct 3, 2008)

celenoglu said:


> In my opinion applying too much engine power is not a good idea. Normally a sailing boat can travel towards the wind (30-35 knots) with approximately 50% of its full power. That means applying 80% power in reverse is more than the power 30 -35 knots winds can apply to a boat.


I may be wrong but a reverse gear is a different ratio than forward resulting in less power. I don't know boat engines all that well so I'm just assuming.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

flyingwelshman said:


> I created an Excel spreadsheet to calculate how much rode to let out for different scopes for different depths, based on my boat.
> 
> Let me know what you think.


What do I think?
I think it must be winter in your neck of the woods at that you my Welsh friend like many of us, is suffering from boat seperation.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

celenoglu said:


> In my opinion applying too much engine power is not a good idea. Normally a sailing boat can travel towards the wind (30-35 knots) with approximately 50% of its full power. That means applying 80% power in reverse is more than the power 30 -35 knots winds can apply to a boat.


I certainly have to rely on the more expert on the list for those types of calculations but I know that next season, I'll be experimenting using less reverse RPM.

Our Catalina 36 came equipped with a 35# Delta on 20' of chain followed by 200' rope, and that thing sets like the dickens in Chesapeake mud. Backing down at roughly 80% of wot has guaranteed a full on wrestling match the next AM trying to free the anchor. Once I had to resort to hauling the rode to the cockpit and cranking it on a primary winch. Fortunately in that case we were in deeper water than usual so I could get rope rode on the winch. In many cases, the chain is on board while the anchor is still deeply set. We have an anchor windlass, but it doesn't have a chain gypsy, so its almost useless in the shallow anchorages that are common here.

Other than not setting the thing so hard, are there any simple techniques for breaking free a well set anchor?


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

For breaking a well set anchor; pull in all excess rode so the bow is directly over the anchor with no slack. Let wave action tug on the anchor. Pull in all slack every time the bow dips down. You can also circle around under power, a different angle will help loosen the anchor. make sure the rode is well secured when you do this, not to the windlass.

I suspect flying is an engineer with too much time on his hands!

depth + height of bow + difference to high tide X desired scope.

eg. 10' depth + 3' to bow + 2' to high tide X 5 = 75'.

As to a too well set anchor...better that than the alternative!
If you're just dropping for lunch or swim in benign conditions, then no need to set overly hard, if at all. But overnight, who knows what could pop up. Unless you like to gamble with the NOAH forcast!


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

midlifesailor said:


> Other than not setting the thing so hard, are there any simple techniques for breaking free a well set anchor?


Midlife,

We set our 35# CQR with a heavy dose of reverse throttle too.

We don't have a windlass. To retrieve it, we begin by pulling the boat up to short scope while we complete our preparations for departure. This gets most of the chain off the bottom and allows the water to begin cleaning the mud out of the links.

When we're ready to go, we start the engine, then nudge up so the bow is right over the anchor, pulling up the slack in the rode as we go. At this point, we cleat off the road and let the momentum of the boat pull the anchor straight up/back and out. Sometimes it will take a bit of extra throttle, but usually not much, and we've never had a situation where we couldn't extract our anchor.

The key is to cleat off the rode, because you will not be able to hold it in your hands. Also, this is all done at slow speeds, so as not to unduly load the anchor platform or cleats.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

celenoglu said:


> In my opinion applying too much engine power is not a good idea. Normally a sailing boat can travel towards the wind (30-35 knots) with approximately 50% of its full power. That means applying 80% power in reverse is more than the power 30 -35 knots winds can apply to a boat.


You're not accounting for the lack of slip when a boat is not connected to something like an anchor. Thrust is complicated but suffice it to say many boats will stall head to wind under power when the wind gets to a certain point. Once you get momentum the thrust needed changes from that of a stalled position and this is why a boat can often travel head to wind in 30-35 knots. My old C-30 could not power into 30-35 knots and could not make enough head way to keep the bow from peeling off. Some boats can some boats can't. Even with my 44hp in a 36 footer I am reduced to about 2-3 knots in 30 knots of head wind at cruise RPM.

80% reverse throttle is not over doing a set so long as you do it from a stopped position after you have let the momentum of the boat gliding back get an initial set. Once the boat has come to a stop you then gradually ramp up the power to finish setting the hook. If your boat drags the anchor at 80% reverse you are inadequately secured or need a a bigger or better hook..

Having encountered many nights of 40+ and some nights over 60 I understand the importance of proper setting techniques BEFORE the wind pipes up. I have spent a few mornings cleaning boats off rocks because owners did not properly set or have adequate scope or ground tackle. In one wind storm in one anchorage we lost five of the seven boats to the rocks over night.. Myself and the other boat that survived were the only two who actually backed down on the anchor. One boat to hit the rocks was a total loss...


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

midlifesailor said:


> Other than not setting the thing so hard, are there any simple techniques for breaking free a well set anchor?


Yes !!! I do all the anchoring by myself and if I can break a Rocna, Spade or Manson free you can certainly break a Delta.

Before you leave the cockpit hit forward throttle with a good quick blast, put it back in neutral, and aim the boat towards the anchors set position. Quickly stammer to the bow and begin retrieving rode while the boat is still gliding towards the anchor. This will require no pulling on your part as the boat is moving that way on its own. As you get close to vertical in position over the anchor simply snub the rode to the cleat. 9 times out of 10 the inertia of the hull will dislodge the anchor with no strain on you. Once it is broken free simply pull it up the ten feet off the bottom..

If the inertia has stalled by that point due to head wind or current go back to the cockpit, with the anchor still snubbed close to vertical, and hit forward again and the anchor will pull out.

Let the boat do the work NOT you.. If you have someone work the helm it is obviously a little easier...


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

*Chain length should be included.*



Maine Sail said:


> Ummm why are you subtracting the chain?? Scope is simply total length figured as height from bow chock to bottom at max water depth.
> 
> A 20 foot max water depth , including height from chock to water, for 7:1 would require 140' from chock to anchor or 7X20=140.. You don't need an excel spread sheet to do simple math in your head...


Agreed. I have never seen any suggestion anywhere about subtracting the chain length.

Jack


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> If the inertia has stalled by that point due to head wind or current go back to the cockpit, with the anchor still snubbed close to vertical, and hit forward again and the anchor will pull out.
> 
> Let the boat do the work NOT you.. If you have someone work the helm it is obviously a little easier...


I agree that the boat should do the work. But use *reverse* to pull out an anchor. That will prevent the chain from damaging the bow or hull, especially with a plumb bow.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Maine Sail said:


> Yes !!! I do all the anchoring by myself and if I can break a Rocna, Spade or Manson free you can certainly break a Delta.
> 
> Before you leave the cockpit hit forward throttle with a good quick blast, put it back in neutral, and aim the boat towards the anchors set position. Quickly stammer to the bow and begin retrieving rode while the boat is still gliding towards the anchor. This will require no pulling on your part as the boat is moving that way on its own. As you get close to vertical in position over the anchor simply snub the rode to the cleat. 9 times out of 10 the inertia of the hull will dislodge the anchor with no strain on you. Once it is broken free simply pull it up the ten feet off the bottom..
> 
> ...


So, I've been close to on track. What I've done is had the wife helm the boat while I pointed her to the anchor and took in rode. I'd have her moving dead slow and would stop directly over the anchor while I tried to muscle the anchor up. When that proved a PITA, I did consider exactly the technique outlined here, but worried about the strain on the cleat since we usually anchor in 10-12' and all the rope is in the locker when we get over the anchor.

Would cleating off a few feet short of the chain so you'd get a bit of stretch on the "tug" be a good idea, or should I just haul it all aboard and cleat the chain?


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

midlifesailor said:


> Would cleating off a few feet short of the chain so you'd get a bit of stretch on the "tug" be a good idea, or should I just haul it all aboard and cleat the chain?


That depends. You want the anchor as vertical as possible. Do not cleat the chain. Use a dock line to tie a rolling hitch on the chain, then cleat the line.

Jack


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Maine Sail said:


> Let the boat do the work NOT you.. If you have someone work the helm it is obviously a little easier...


This is often forgotten by throttle jockeys. Most sailboats are heavy, slippery things that want to keep moving. I learned early that the best way to dock was in neutral, and learned how to cut my speed to nil by sharply turning into my slip or by doing a big S-curve to cut way on. I never reverse out of the slip, either, unless I need to warp up. I always put the helm amidships and just push out (yes, even the big steel boat). My 110-lb. wife will do this on days under 20 knots.

The point is that inertia, wind and current can be your friends and helpers. Getting a boat moving is easy. Getting it to stop is another.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

jackdale said:


> Do not cleat the chain.


We routinely cleat the chain without any difficulties. But we have dual 12" anchor/mooring cleats on or bow, which allows it to wrap nicely. I'm not worried about shock loading because as I said this is occurring VERY slowly, always in Chesapeake mud bottoms.

My suggestions are for Midlifesailor, who also sails the Chesapeake. I guess the prudent approach is to assess your anchoring hardware, methods, and bottom conditions before deciding whether to cleat the chain.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

jackdale said:


> I agree that the boat should do the work. But use *reverse* to pull out an anchor. That will prevent the chain from damaging the bow or hull, especially with a plumb bow.


Yup this can be a problem for Nonsuch's, Saga's, J's and some others.... Don't need tot worry with my bow so I tend to forget about that..


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Great! Now I'm "jonesn'" to anchor out so I can try this stuff out and I've got all winter and a ton of boat chores to get through first.

It'll be great to be able to start the sailing day without working up a sweat first thing in the AM. LOL


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

Maine Sail said:


> Ummm why are you subtracting the chain?? Scope is simply total length figured as height from bow chock to bottom at max water depth.
> 
> A 20 foot max water depth , including height from chock to water, for 7:1 would require 140' from chock to anchor or 7X20=140.. You don't need an excel spread sheet to do simple math in your head...


Thanks for your thoughtful (and not the least bit patronizing) reply.
You are correct: the scope is measured from the chock - my assumption was that it was measured from the water surface, hence my mistake.

However, in 20' of water as indicated by your transducer which is (let's say for sake of argument) 1' under the water surface, your actual depth is 21' (unless your transducer is calibrated to take its depth into account. Mine is not.) Now, your chock is, oh, I don't know, 3' above the water surface, which we have established is 21' deep. Now the distance from chock to bottom is 24', not 20'. So for a scope of 7:1 (7 x 24) you would have to have 168' of rode off the chock. That's 28' of rode different from your calculation.

Now, as to why I subtract the length of chain from my rode length: the chain is included in the rode length when establishing a desired scope. I have 25' of chain between my anchor and my nylon rode. When I let out my anchor I do not measure my chain, as I know how long it is, so I start my measurement at the nylon rode. If I need 168' of rode for a 7:1 scope all I have to do is ensure I have 143' of nylon off my chock. My nylon rode is marked off in 10' increments starting from the chain.

So, although the math is 'simple' there is some calculation involved in establishing the correct length of rode to play out. ((indicated water depth + depth of transducer + height of chock) X desired scope) - length of chain = length of nylon rode off chock. Not rocket science, but easier to look at a simple chart than to do this calculation each time we anchor. Now I can just tell my crew what the water depth is and what scope I want and badda-bing: she knows how much rode to let out.

I know that this is a crutch for a neophite sailor, but once I know what these scopes look like and how they react under different conditions, then I can wean myself off it.

As I sail in the great lakes I don't have to calculate tides. Were I to sail in a tidal area I would also have to include the tide height into my calculations.

I hope this eases your confusion somewhat.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

flyingwelshman said:


> However, in 20' of water as indicated by your transducer which is (let's say for sake of argument) 1' under the water surface, your actual depth is 21' (unless your transducer is calibrated to take its depth into account. Mine is not.) Now, your chock is, oh, I don't know, 3' above the water surface, which we have established is 21' deep. Now the distance from chock to bottom is 24', not 20'. So for a scope of 7:1 (7 x 24) you would have to have 168' of rode off the chock. That's 28' of rode different from your calculation.


I think you missed this part of the sentence.



Maine Sail said:


> A 20 foot max water depth , *including height from chock to water*, for 7:1 would require 140' from chock to anchor or 7X20=140.. You don't need an excel spread sheet to do simple math in your head...


I included the bow chock distance in my "total" or "max" depth 20' number. My depth sounder is always calibrated to reflect the surface of the water not it's location 16" below the waterline.

Try starting your rope rode markings at the length they begin. Simply go five feet up the three strand and put the 30' marker on then 40 and so on it should make it easier for the folks on the bow.

My chain is sixty feet so my first rode marking is 70' but my chain is marked in ten foot increments as well.. It does not need to be complicated.

Let's say your uncalibrated transducer is 1' below and your chock is 3' above. This number when combined will always be 4' now add that to what ever your water depth is let's say 20', you have no tide, and simply multiply that number by 5, 6 or 7 X 24' to get your number.

Did not mean to come across as sarcastic, sorry if I did, but I still don't see the need for a spread sheet. You could certainly simplify your rode markings though...


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## scottbr (Aug 14, 2007)

Welsh..... still sounds way too complicated.  

I have 50 ft. of chain and my rode marked out at 25 ft. intervals. For the most part we anchor in 10 - 15 ft. water depth. This would make typical anchoring in the 75' - 100' rode length. It really doesn't make that much difference if it's 97' or 105', so rough calculations are fine.

For the most part, 5:1 is adequate in these anchorages. If stronger winds are predicted or for better security it's still easy to let out to 7:1. Although, I have survived 52 knot winds on less than 5:1 ( or actually 3.7:1, I think that's what we calculated Maine??)

When we anchor the Admiral drops the hook ( I however, do the pull up) and I simply tell her either 1, 2 or 3 marks on the rode. I used different coloured zip ties to mark each 25 ft' interval.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

Maine Sail said:


> I think you missed this part of the sentence.
> 
> I included the bow chock distance in my "total" or "max" depth 20' number. My depth sounder is always calibrated to reflect the surface of the water not it's location 16" below the waterline.
> 
> ...


No worries - tough day at the factory and the 'Ummm' got me.

Anyway, I think you are right about re-marking the rode with the true lengths (including the chain).

I know the whole chart thing is kind of anal (as I stated in my first post on the topic), but this whole sailing thing is pretty new to me and I'm trying to wrap my head around some of the niceties. My crew (read 'wife') thinks the chart goes too far.

Based on what I've been reading here It sounds as though a good thumbnail is good enough - I can always let out a bit more rode if necessary.

Thanks for the responses.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

I do have to say some of you guys seem to put a lot more cipherin' in when it comes to anchoring than I ever did. The scope recommendations are recommendations not rocket science. I take the depth off the sounder, add 3feet for freeboard a couple more for tide and do a rough multiplication by the desired scope usually 7:1. Then I let that amount out, measuring from the anchor, and am done with it. I can't see how its going to hurt if I'm off by a few feet, one way or the other, so long as I'm close and know what I have out, so I can let anyone anchoring nearby know so we'll swing the same size circle.

No need to measure with a micrometer when you're, markin' with a crayon and cuttin' with a chainsaw.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

flyingwelshman said:


> Thanks for your thoughtful (and not the least bit patronizing) reply.
> You are correct: the scope is measured from the chock - my assumption was that it was measured from the water surface, hence my mistake.
> 
> However, in 20' of water as indicated by your transducer which is (let's say for sake of argument) 1' under the water surface, your actual depth is 21' (unless your transducer is calibrated to take its depth into account. Mine is not.) Now, your chock is, oh, I don't know, 3' above the water surface, which we have established is 21' deep. Now the distance from chock to bottom is 24', not 20'. So for a scope of 7:1 (7 x 24) you would have to have 168' of rode off the chock. That's 28' of rode different from your calculation.
> ...


[EDIT: I typed this reply earlier but it got caught in some kind of vortex. I see FWM has replied further so it's all a bit moot but oh well...]

FWM,

While I understand your reasoning, I'll agree with others that this is a somewhat circuitous approach to get to the same result. If it works for you, great, but since you invited comments...

As I read this, it seems some of the confusion stems from your use of the word "rode" to refer only to the rope portion. In the common vernacular, the entire length from the anchor to the boat is referred to as the rode, whether it is all chain, all rope, or a combination. So as we read your description of the calculation we are left scratching our heads a bit -- until we learn that you only refer to the rope portion as the "rode".

We do as Mainesail and place our rode markings at the appropriate length as measured from the anchor. This allows us to use the simple mental calculation of depth (measured from anchor roller) X desired scope = length of rode deployed.

The only advantage I can see to your approach is that you will not have to alter your markings if you decide to increase or decrease the amount of chain you use.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

*7:1? 5:1?*

I have looking at this thread with some interest. I am particularly impressed that many you you can find anchorages where you can get 5:1 scopes, let alone 7:1. In the summer in the PNW, you are lucky if you can get out 4:1 in our more popular anchorages. Then some of you are adding anchorage balls; that would severely limited any other other boat. On a good day in Montague Harbour we will have well over a hundred boats. 5:1 scope with mooring balls would be impossible.

I will say that I dig in and set every anchor at 1500 rpm (about 50% of max rpm, 75% of cruising rpm). I have dragged on one occasion in Mexico. We had about 10:1, 2 anchors in soft sand with 45 knot winds. I managed to hold in mud on one anchor in 50 knots in Turkey.

Edit - BTW I teach 3:1 for lunch, 5:1 for overnight, as much as possible in storms. Depth, plus height of tide, plus freeboard.

Jack


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Valiente said:


> This is often forgotten by throttle jockeys. I never reverse out of the slip, either, unless I need to warp up. I always put the helm amidships and just push out (yes, even the big steel boat). My 110-lb. wife will do this on days under 20 knots.
> 
> Pushing out by 110 lb. person in 20 knots wind is something I don't understand. Is your wind coming directly ahead or astern of the boat (this would present smallest area to wind)? Is any portion of the wind cross wind? When I try to move my boat (32 ft, 11,700 lbs) in 20 knots wind by hand, I find it rather difficult. I have heard similar comments by others about moving boat in or out of slip by hand in 20-25 kts, but at my marina (always a crosswind), the people seem to really struggle in 20 knots (few even try). I really would like to learn the technique....Thanks for any insight you can provide.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

midlifesailor said:


> No need to measure with a micrometer when you're, markin' with a crayon and cuttin' with a chainsaw.


I'm with you.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

NCC320 said:


> Valiente said:
> 
> 
> > This is often forgotten by throttle jockeys. I never reverse out of the slip, either, unless I need to warp up. I always put the helm amidships and just push out (yes, even the big steel boat). My 110-lb. wife will do this on days under 20 knots.
> ...


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## betodas (Oct 3, 2008)

You lost me at "soft, mobile fulcrum"


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

betodas said:


> You lost me at "soft, mobile fulcrum"


I started getting excited!


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## scottbr (Aug 14, 2007)

jackdale said:


> I have looking at this thread with some interest. I am particularly impressed that many you you can find anchorages where you can get 5:1 scopes, let alone 7:1. In the summer in the PNW, you are lucky if you can get out 4:1 in our more popular anchorages. Then some of you are adding anchorage balls; that would severely limited any other other boat. On a good day in Montague Harbour we will have well over a hundred boats. 5:1 scope with mooring balls would be impossible.
> 
> Jack


I would think the more crowded the anchorage, the more I would want an anchor ball. Some of our anchorages can get very crowded and as I said, 5:1 is sufficient as they are fairly protected. I will drop a ball if expecting a wind shift later in the evening or if I'm anchoring for more than one night with expected wind shifts. Sometimes I end up pointed in a different direction than where my anchor is located. I've also had another boat park right on top of my anchor. We were in 25 ft. of water and when he pulled in I thought he was close but couldn't tell, with the shift in the breeze and drifting overnight he ended up right on top. We were leaving at 7:00 am and discovered this as the bow rail narrowly missed his dinghy on the davits with quick manouvering by my wife on the wheel.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

jackdale said:


> I have looking at this thread with some interest. I am particularly impressed that many you you can find anchorages where you can get 5:1 scopes, let alone 7:1. In the summer in the PNW, you are lucky if you can get out 4:1 in our more popular anchorages. Then some of you are adding anchorage balls; that would severely limited any other other boat. On a good day in Montague Harbour we will have well over a hundred boats. 5:1 scope with mooring balls would be impossible.
> 
> Jack


Different set of problems... 









Seriously though we do have a few tight anchorages and I will use 4:1 & 5:1 if need be. On most calm nights I run 5:1 but if wind is expected I find a spot where I can do 7:1. This is not hard to find in Maine...

7:1


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

This issue of how much scope can be used in tight anchorages is yet one more reason to upsize the primary anchor. A somewhat oversized anchor will give you a bit more flexibility when shorter scope is the only option. And I suppose it's also an argument for the newer generation of anchors that seem to yield better holding in most conditions.

P.S. Mainesail, nice photos. I look at them and think, "ahhhh." That's a sweet spot, care to disclose?


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

JohnRPollard said:


> P.S. Mainesail, nice photos. I look at them and think, "ahhhh." That's a sweet spot, care to disclose?


It's off of Coot island in the Deer Isle/Stonington Archipelago..


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Valiente,

Thanks for the excellent explanation for pushing out in 20 kts. With prevailing winds at my marina, we're most often in "squisher" mode. The key for your method certainly depends a knowledgeable crew, proper breast line/other line application, and using the wind to your advantage. I generally single hand, so while the same principles work, I will have to apply them a bit different.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

scottbr said:


> I would think the more crowded the anchorage, the more I would want an anchor ball. Some of our anchorages can get very crowded and as I said, 5:1 is sufficient as they are fairly protected. I will drop a ball if expecting a wind shift later in the evening or if I'm anchoring for more than one night with expected wind shifts. Sometimes I end up pointed in a different direction than where my anchor is located. I've also had another boat park right on top of my anchor. We were in 25 ft. of water and when he pulled in I thought he was close but couldn't tell, with the shift in the breeze and drifting overnight he ended up right on top. We were leaving at 7:00 am and discovered this as the bow rail narrowly missed his dinghy on the davits with quick manouvering by my wife on the wheel.


The anchorages that I use regularly, such as Montague Harbour and Genoa Bay, in which we swing are subject to onshore and offshore breezes. Wind shifts are the order of the day. They generally occur just as the sun goes down and in the early morning. Anchor balls would prevent the efficient use of space in these anchorages. The fools who drop crab traps in the anchorage are our scourge.

I am not so much concerned about another boat ending up over my anchor; I do get concerned about someone dropping their anchor on top of mine, or within my swing room. I tend to pay very close attention to other boats that anchor near me. I will also other skippers where their anchor is. I have only had one really bad incident in which a powerboat on a short scope anchored in my swing room. I asked him to move; he refused. At sundown I nearly swing into him. With discretion being the better part of valour, I moved.

Ideally we will swing together. I anchor near other sailboats with a similar set up. Normally I use a boat that has 200 feet and chain and 100 feet of rope. I tend to anchor near other sailboats on chain. If I am on less chain with more rope, I look for a similar set up.

I have only had one bump in the night, and that was from a power boat that had way too much rode out for the anchorage and the conditions. He actually went between two boats before hitting mine. I was anchored first.

On departure we have had to deal with boats that are over our anchor. It is a minor inconvenience for both boats,

Jack


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Don't forget to account for the tidal range... if you're anchoring in 20' of water at low tide, but have 10' of tides to deal with, you need to set scope for the 33' from bow to bottom, rather than the current 23' from bow to bottom...


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*Just a nit...*



sailingdog said:


> Don't forget to account for the tidal range...


Should read; "Don't forget to account for *predicted* tidal range..."

For example; Boston has an _average _tidal range of 9.5'. However, spring tide ranges frequently exceed 13'... With a storm, the range can easily exceed 15'.

Before anchoring out, remember to check your tide chart, and the weather forecast!

- Ed


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Ed-

Saying "account for tidal range" is perfectly accurate...  If you assumed average, that's not my fault.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Ed-
> 
> Saying "account for tidal range" is perfectly accurate...  If you assumed average, that's not my fault.


Dawg's back.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Really, where? 


craigtoo said:


> Dawg's back.


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## TxLnghrn (Apr 22, 2008)

*Thank Goodness*

The extra 2 hours a day I had not reading Dawg's posts was starting to add up and make me feel like I might have to work or something.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

TxLnghrn said:


> The extra 2 hours a day I had not reading Dawg's posts was starting to add up and make me feel like I might have to work or something.


I agree; the extra 2 hours a day I had not reading Dawg's posts was starting to add up and make me feel like I might have to work or something


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

You're both obviously lying...neither of you has ever felt like working in your life...


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

hence the fearfulness of such a thought


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

xort said:


> hence the fearfulness of such a thought


good point...  :laugher:laugher


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

xort said:


> I agree; the extra 2 hours a day I had not reading Dawg's posts was starting to add up and make me feel like I might have to work or something


I agree...the extra 2 hours a day I had not reading Dawg's posts was starting to add up and make me feel like I might have to work or something.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CraigTool, XORT, and Txlnghrn-

*BITE ME!!!! *


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> CraigTool, XORT, and Txlnghrn-
> 
> *BITE ME!!!! *


He may have been "back" before....

but now..

he's *"BACK"*


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

would that be 'back biting'?


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## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

craigtoo said:


> I agree...the extra 2 hours a day I had not reading Dawg's posts was starting to add up and make me feel like I might have to work or something.


I agree...the extra 2 hours a day I had not reading Dawg's posts was starting to add up and make me feel like I might have to work or something.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Eureka, I figured it out... the four of them share a single mind... hence the near identical thinking and relatively low IQs.... :laugher



TxLnghrn said:


> The extra 2 hours a day I had not reading Dawg's posts was starting to add up and make me feel like I might have to work or something.





xort said:


> I agree; the extra 2 hours a day I had not reading Dawg's posts was starting to add up and make me feel like I might have to work or something





craigtoo said:


> I agree...the extra 2 hours a day I had not reading Dawg's posts was starting to add up and make me feel like I might have to work or something.





ckgreenman said:


> I agree...the extra 2 hours a day I had not reading Dawg's posts was starting to add up and make me feel like I might have to work or something.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Eureka, I figured it out... the three of them share a single mind... hence the near identical thinking and relatively low IQs.... :laugher


Not for nuthin'

But you forgot CK.... Please correct your post.


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## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

craigtoo said:


> Not for nuthin'
> 
> But you forgot CK.... Please correct your post.


See it's like this, I don't have a SAILboat so in SD's eyes I don't exist. Hell, I'm surprised anyoen with less than 3 hulls exists either


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Corrected as requested. 


craigtoo said:


> Not for nuthin'
> 
> But you forgot CK.... Please correct your post.


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## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

Yay!!! I EXIST!!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Actually, between the four of you, you have enough hulls for two boats, like the monstrosity Chuckles has....  and enough lead to make bullets to repel the pirates you'll run into cruising. 


ckgreenman said:


> See it's like this, I don't have a SAILboat so in SD's eyes I don't exist. Hell, I'm surprised anyoen with less than 3 hulls exists either


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*suggestion---*

Just a suggestion -- to make the calculations easy, why not start the measured markings on your rode from a point 7 times the distance from bow chock to water, or if your depth sounder is uncorrected, 7 times the distance from depth sounder to bow chock? On Ragtime, my nylon is marked as 10 feet only four feet from the top end of the 30 foot chain. My wife (helmsman) reads the water depth from the instrument, and I multiply that number by 5. Simple, huh? We use 5-1 scope because trees on the river's edge prevent us from having winds as high as those on the seacoast. Only time we ever see winds of 40+ is during a tornado, and there is adequate warning for those, so that we stay on the dock! When we leave here to become wanderers (read when my 401k recovers) I will take your advice and re-mark it to start measuring 7X that distance and use 7X the depth reading for added scope.
BTW - I never dive to check my anchor set. In the Mississippi i can't see it at a distance greater than three inches!  
On another point -- having spent a lot of time on the Mississippi, DON'T BUY A RIVER ANCHOR! The shape of them precludes a good set in anything but Jello. They are made for fishermen, who are awake, casting or watching a bobber. Go below for lunch and you will drift! You are better off with a couple bricks on a clothesline. In the sand or mud here, a Danforth or Fortress seem to work best. Now and then we run into a bed of clams, where you need a plow type. I just move 50 feet, and avoid the clams.
Next subject -- Let the boat do the work when you pull up the anchor. You really must have a good cleat on the bow, so cleat off the anchor when you reach 1-1 scope and if inertia won't break it loose, the engine will. And that cleat is for anchoring - don't ever leave your anchor rode attached only to the windlass overnight; cleat it! I have seen the bolts holding the windlass to the deck sheared off in a storm. A good cleat will have heavier bolts, a good backing plate, and a mounting such that the stress on the cleat is at a better angle than you will ever achieve on a windlass. My bow cleats are about a foot long, 2-1/2 inches high, and nearly an inch in thickness. It is foolish to depend on the chain/rope gypsy to hold up to a night of constant motion.


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## hardalee22 (Nov 3, 2006)

This may have been mentioned already, but here is the most important aspect of anchoring.

We enter the harbor with my wife at the helm and me on the bow. She picks a spot. I tell her that is a terrible spot. She yells at me. We then move to another area, usually close to another boat with a few people in the cockpit.

We continue to argue about where to anchor. 

Finally we agree and I lower the anchor. Something bad happens. Might be that she backs up too fast or I don't lower the anchor fast enough...

Eventually we're hooked and all is good.

Just kidding. We've managed to get pretty good at the anchoring but we've put on some shows in the past. 

I still love sitting with a beer in the cockpit and watching greenhorns put on a show. Is winter almost over...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

That's how my wife gave me the nickname "Old Yeller"!!


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Cruising Solutions headsets work fantastic. We used to have "loud conversations" on our 26'. Now all is calm on our 42'; well, calm while anchoring anyway.


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## scottbr (Aug 14, 2007)

Can't say as we've had any "loud conversations" I / we agreed right at the beginning that we were going to make mistakes as we were both learning, and would not yell. For the most part we drop and pull up the anchor without saying a word and do it all by hand signals..... and not the single digit signal either


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## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

xort said:


> Cruising Solutions headsets work fantastic. We used to have "loud conversations" on our 26'. Now all is calm on our 42'; well, calm while anchoring anyway.


Well we haven't tried to anchor anything of size but on our 20ft power boat, my wife and I have it down to a science.

I like the idea of the headsets though.


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## funjohnson (Aug 20, 2008)

May I ask a mooring question? 

I currently sail a Hunter 240 and have it on a permanent mooring. I was looking at getting new pennants (2) and was wondering if catenary length matters from the boat's cleat to the mooring ball? Typically, with a 24' boat would I need 15', 20' or 25' feet length? Does it matter? I have room to swing, but do not want it to wander too much.


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