# Head Liners and Hull Liners



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Recently, I was on Max-on's Dehler 33. It's a very pretty leadmine .

However, it's got a problem that a lot of boats share, especially newer ones. The interior is finished with a hull liner and head liner that essentially act to stiffen the boat from what I can see. But there is no way to get past either to do any work on the deck or hull in 95% of the places.

One recent member here on sailnet did a fairly large hardware upgrade on his boat and he went from this:










to this:










But to do so, his cabin ended up looking like he has a bad infestation of fiberglass termites:










My boat has basically the same issues, but my headliner isn't a rigid fiberglass one like Max-on's and cutting through the material is a much simpler option. Eventually, I plan on taking down the current headliner and replacing it with one that is easily removable for maintenance and hardware installation.

I'm planning on installing furring strips, which will be epoxied/glassed to the underside of the cabintop, and using those to mount the new headliner. I also plan on leaving openings for the existing hardware and such to make inspection and maintenance easier to do.

Have any of you done something like this? If so, do you have any regrets or things you'd change about how you did the installation? What tips and tricks would you mention to someone doing this?


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## drynoc (Jul 17, 2001)

*Something similar*

I did an amateurish job of this sort last summer. After years of racing by the PO, my boat had no head liner at all, so I installed a cloth one using furring strips as you describe. I went with cloth because it would be easy to take down in case of maintenance.

I may not be very good at using epoxy, but I had a hard time getting the furring strips to stick to the overhead using West System. I ended up screwing the strips to the overhead with self drilling sheet metal screws. It was also a lot faster and cheaper, by the way. It seems to have worked out well - no issues so far. The most difficult part of the effort was trying to flatten the overhead - it had all sorts of indentations and anomalies built in, no doubt because the builder never thought that it would see the light of day. I ended up using blocks of wood under the furring strips to account for the various inconsistencies. Lastly, I'm not much of a seamstress, so there are some (ahem) less than perfect areas, but overhaul I'm happy with the result. I don't want this post to get too long, since I don't know your specific questions, but feel free to ask. What you are talking about makes sense and can be done.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I will be up front and say, I love the look of varnish, it really floats my boat. That be said, I was on a boat on Friday where the guy replaced his headliner with 2'' x 4' luan plywood strips. He cut a sheet of luan plywood into 2 inch wide strips epoxied hardwood nailers to the hull and used brass screws to attach the luan (mahogany) strips, which he had varnished. It really was a stunning look. 

Also because he screwed the strips in place, they are easy removed to get to backing plates and such. The small air space behind the strips also helped cool the boat.


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## jbondy (Mar 28, 2001)

For a tempoprary fix, you might consider these plugs from Grainger:

Hardware > Supplies > Hole Plugs > Hole Plug,Hole D 1 1/2 In,Wh,PK 25 : Grainger Industrial Supply

They come in all sorts of sizes, from 1/4" to 2" and cost under $3 for a pack of 25. They give the holes a finished look. I used these where there was a headliner I did not want to replace.

I did replace part of the ceiling using this (I think) from Home Depot:

PGM Products L.L.C. 4 In. Bead Cape Cod Planking - 617137 at The Home Depot

It's a vinyl tongue and groove panel. What I used came white, so I didn'r need to paint it. It's whilte all the way thru, so it should never need painting or touch up. It's waterproof, with the obvious benefit.

I put firring strips across the ceiling using self tapping screws. I've had good success with polyurethane construction adhesive, so I might try that if you don't want to screw into the underside of the deck. It has enough holding power to keep the stripsin place until it cures. I ran the tongue and groove for and aft, attaching to the firring strips with 1/2" screws. The vinyl is soft enough that the screws went in flush without the need to countersink. I then put decorative teak strips from side to side to cover the screws and lend a nautical look.

The only complexities arose from the uneveness of the surface, as mentioned above. I used the same approach of using wood shims to even the firring strips up. Also, the side edges of the vinyl are exposed and presented a challenge to my woodworking skills to get them looking good. I may end up installig more teak strips to create a frame appearance, but it hasn't bothered me enougfh yet to do anything about it. My wife thinks I'm being too picky, but when you DIY, you are too aware of all the faults.

Good luck.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

SD,
While all sailors are in love with vast expanses of varnished wood work especially when it is interior on one time only for the work I don't think your boat would benefit from having a dark overhead. You need to keep it light and airy, secure so it doesn't come down (when not if you eventually flip the boat) and easy to remove so you can have access to the wire runs, backing plates and what not so you can continue with your endless tinkering.. i.e, a ceiling just like I need for the same reasons..

I 'll be following this thread and see what folks come up with.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Chuckles-

Trust me, I wasn't planning on a dark overhead surface... either white or a very pale off-white.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

If you are using a tensioned suspended fabric headliner as I think from your description, you may consider using heavy duty zippers to provide access for your inspection openings.
Pretty neat job in the photos, he should really like everything to the cockpit like that.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

I like the holes.

Gives it that sporty... "I modified the crap out of my boat look...."

One option we're discussing to cover the termite infestation is strips of thin teak. In rows.

Sabre used white electrical outlet covers. Looks cheap to me.

My dad recently installed a new headliner on his boat.. all vinyl.. I'll need to ask him how he did that. I know he's removed it all to rebed a bunch of hardware this winter... and I don't think it was too bad at all...

C'mon down to Annapolis and we'll check it out!

craig


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks for the invite, I might have to take you up on it.


craigtoo said:


> I like the holes.
> 
> Gives it that sporty... "I modified the crap out of my boat look...."
> 
> ...


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Always Welcome SD!

As long as you help me pot all the holes in my deck with epoxy! I'll buy the beer!




EDIT: Isn't your season coming to an end next week anyway????


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Nope... we got at least three weeks left.


craigtoo said:


> Always Welcome SD!
> 
> As long as you help me pot all the holes in my deck with epoxy! I'll buy the beer!
> 
> ...


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## NauticalFishwife (Dec 12, 2007)

As soon as I can find the cable to my camera I'll send you some pictures of the headliner I'm ALMOST finished replacing on our boat! We had the sagging, needed to be replaced cloth with foam backing. We had added hardware and backing plates and it was looking pretty shabby. I used a material that is pressed PVC-Comotex. We had the teak strips already-so that's what holds it up. No glue so I can remove it when I need to access. You can cut it with a utility knife, changing blades often and using a metal ruler. Use the 1/8 " thickness. It cleans well, is bright and lightweight and flexible. If you would like a sample of it I'll be happy to mail you a small piece! Most of it I did by myself using clamps when I needed the extra set of hands. But I would use it again-and will because I still have a small section to do in the V berth. It runs about $30 for a 4x8 sheet so it's affordable.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Martha-

I'd love to see a sample of it... I'd also like to know where you can get the stuff.  Looking forward to seeing your photos. 


NauticalFishwife said:


> As soon as I can find the cable to my camera I'll send you some pictures of the headliner I'm ALMOST finished replacing on our boat! We had the sagging, needed to be replaced cloth with foam backing. We had added hardware and backing plates and it was looking pretty shabby. I used a material that is pressed PVC-Comotex. We had the teak strips already-so that's what holds it up. No glue so I can remove it when I need to access. You can cut it with a utility knife, changing blades often and using a metal ruler. Use the 1/8 " thickness. It cleans well, is bright and lightweight and flexible. If you would like a sample of it I'll be happy to mail you a small piece! Most of it I did by myself using clamps when I needed the extra set of hands. But I would use it again-and will because I still have a small section to do in the V berth. It runs about $30 for a 4x8 sheet so it's affordable.


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

Is the PVC-Comotex the same as Sintra? and expanded PVC foam board?

http://store.foamboardsource.com/sintra-pvc-foam.html


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Don't think so. A 4' x 8' x 3mm sheet of sintra is $75 or so.


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## NauticalFishwife (Dec 12, 2007)

Lets see if this works. I've not tried to include photos before and the first three times I downloaded my files they were way to large! 
Pardon the packing going on in the V berth and the curtains that are not yet hemmed. But this does give you an idea of the headliner. If you'd like a small sample of the product I'd be happy to snail mail you a piece. I keep several scrapes around to use as buffers when working on other projects. IM me your address and I'll mail it next week. 
I purchased this from Maritime Plastics-the guys who replaced the lexan in my hatches. Their phone number is 410-263-4424 and I'm sure they would be happy to direct you to a distributor. Nice guys. 
Now to see if the photos show up or if it's back to the drawing board.


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## NauticalFishwife (Dec 12, 2007)

Wow... it worked! If you look above the compression post you will see the trim doesn't match. Because of all the backing plates and the need to access those more frequently I cut a smaller piece of the headliner for that area and had to use smaller trim.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

thanks fishwife, looks beautiful. nice job


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

Googling "Komatex" I see that it is basically the same stuff as Sintra:

from one of the links:

"Komatex® - Expanded PVC Sheet
KOMATEX ® is a lightweight closed-cell, free foam, rigid PVC sheet. It is homogeneously colored with a matte finish that is tough and versatile enough for many of today's applications. KOMATEX is available in 20 standard vibrant colors and a variety of thicknesses and sizes to fit most uses. The matte surface is the perfect substrate for screen printing, painting, laminating, vinyl lettering and forming projects."

It is manufactured by Kommerling USA; Sintra is manufactured by Alcan Composites USA

pricing seems to vary depending on the distributor...


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## NauticalFishwife (Dec 12, 2007)

Just a few hints if you choose this route. Use 1/8 " thickness. It's thick enough to hold a nice shape and curve, yet easy to cut. Komatex will scratch, so make sure you cut it on a clean surface. It's not as forgiving as cloth - the perforated vinyl so you have to measure twice and cut once. On corners in order to get mine to fit under the existing trim I used the utility knife and whittled it down at an angle. It's very easy to drill nice clean holes. 
I have a friend who just used this behind the head on their boat where he had done some repairs that left an unsightly hole. On a rather large area in the V-berth I had to use additional screws with the teak strips but used screw caps to cover and it looks nice. Let me know if you choose to use it and what you think!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks Martha...  Where did you get the stuff from??


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## NauticalFishwife (Dec 12, 2007)

Dog... I ordered mine from Maritime Plastics in Annapolis-410-263-4424. Since I had limited space I'd order one or two sheets at a time. Take them to a pavilion at the neighboring marina to cut it. I used brown paper to make patterns. The foam on the old vinyl was just too big of a mess to use it as a pattern. If you would like to see a piece I'd be happy to mail you a sample.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Nautical Fishwife—

I'd love to see a sample. I'll PM you my address.


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## jbondy (Mar 28, 2001)

For anyone who is interested, these are some pix of the headliner we installed this year with vinyl tongue 'n' groove material bought at Home Depot. It comes in 7" x 86" strips, about $20 for a 3 pack. Waterproof, meant for bathrooms, so I though it good for marine environment. The 2" hole plugs were about $3.50 for a 25 pack a Graingers. They covered up the fender washers and lock nuts used under deck fittings. They'll be easy to access when rebedding. The only problem with both is that they are a little too white as compared the other fiberglass work in the interior. Oh well.


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## LakeEscape (Jul 18, 2007)

Martha,

That is absolutely beautifully. I use Sintra in display and set building, never thought about using it on the boat.

SD,

I really like how they brought the beer back to the cockpit. Did it need a backing plate too?   


LakeEscape


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## essman (Jun 29, 2002)

*Headliner*

On my previous boat I replaced the headliner in the method you described - using furring strips.
I used a product from Home Depot as the liner.
Can't remember the name, but it is white fiberglass paneling. Home Depot has it in the same area as the wood paneling. When I was buying it, it was about $25 for a 4 foot X 8 foot sheet.
I cut it to fit the furring strips, then covered the seams with teak batten strips like in the pictures earlier in the post.
The paneling did an excellent job. was fairly easy to work with, easy to clean and maintain. It has a rough finish and didn't show dirt or marks readily.
Good luck with your project.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks Essman. I'll have to look at what HD and Lowes have available. I'd prefer something that isn't wood—as I prefer sailing to varnishing...and want to keep the cabin as light and airy as possible.


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## jobark (Jul 19, 2004)

I have had a little experience - first with a beneteau with foam backed vinyl on the hull surfaces - black mold removal shortened my life by years. forget it.

The second is with my current Pearson 40. the overhead panels consist of vinyl on basicly luan ply. the old was yellowed (looked like the walls of the home of a heavy smoker but I believe this was the original color) and it needed freshening. I removed the panels and glued new vinyl over the panel and reattached. a great improvement. for your situation the use of a finished panel - available at any big box store would be the best alternative. It looks like formica on luan. Easily cut, held in place by velcro strips (really a big help when first mounting and keeps the panels from sagging), stainless screws (into the furring strips you mentioned) seams covered by finished wood or plastic strips.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I was going to cheat a bit...and not put screws through the panels themselves if I can avoid it..and just use screws through the wood trim to hold the panels in place... this may not be a reasonable solution...but I was going to try it.  However, in the case of my boat, none of the panels will be wider than about 3'.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

SD....

Think termites.... TERMITES...

Lot's of little holes...!!!!!


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

sailingdog said:


> I was going to cheat a bit...


SD "cheat" . . . take a short cut????????????? I am confused.    Is that even possible?


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## 97fxdwg (Jan 20, 2012)

*Sintra* - Has anyone ever tried to gently heat it to conform more easily to compound curves - Think hull liner.
Thanks~


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

sailingdog said:


> One recent member here on sailnet did a fairly large hardware upgrade on his boat and he went from this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can buy plug caps to cover each of those holes or make up a trim piece in wood to match your interior wood - screw it in place, dabs of hot melt glue it in place, Velcro it in place, whatever, as long as it is fairly easily removeable.

While you're at it, you can put large fender washers under all those OTHER nuts that only have scrawny little washers backing them up.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

A method I've seen used and really liked was longitudinal panels of thin monocell foam - perhaps that Sintra - I've never seen it that I know of. The foam panels were covered with fabric that was wrapped over the edges and glued down on the back side. Each panel was held up with industrial strength Velcro rather than battens or other fastener type systems. Each one could be peeled out to access fasteners etc. and then just pressed back in place. Looked great and worked great.

This method probably suits a more contemporary boat better than an older style - don't think it would really suit a schooner for example.


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## Nitro (Feb 4, 2009)

I started with a perforated aluminum headliner and painted ply ceilings and ended up with this. We milled ash into 2"x 1/8" T&G strips, painted the salon headliner white but left the coach house and ceilings clear-satin finished. Doesn't weigh any more than the old aluminum.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Ahhhhhh.....time for a classic Sailing dog post......sorry can not resist

you're pulling up a 4 yr old post because why? OP is probably not posting here, has answer yadda yadda. see my sticky to get the most of of sail.net yadda yadda......


by the way, SD got pissed at a few folks after 40somthing thousand posts and is not posting. in the mean time, hope you all enjoy your day, oh, yeah, carry on!

Marty


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## 97fxdwg (Jan 20, 2012)

blt2ski said:


> Ahhhhhh.....time for a classic Sailing dog post......sorry can not resist
> 
> you're pulling up a 4 yr old post because why? OP is probably not posting here, has answer yadda yadda. see my sticky to get the most of of sail.net yadda yadda......
> 
> ...


Hi - I resurrected this thread because it appears to be about liners (using the Search Function, which worked well by the way), and I was looking to see if anyone had used Sintra. I didn't mean to stress anyone out.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

97,

Trust me, you did not stress me out, just had to have a little fun on the OP of the thread. The line I used was his favorite line to use when a 4 yr old thread was pulled up and a question or comment added to it. Then trust me on this, "HE WOULD BE STRESSED" over someone bringing up an old post! At times frankly, bringing up an old one is better than starting a new one. On the other hand, the other way also applies.....

I'm personally not sure what Sintra is. When I redid my head/hull liner area's I used foam and vinyl as it originally had, but seperate vs already together. Flat area's used thin plywood or where their was deck gear hardware to get at stuff, so it was easier to remove and get at the nuts/bolts etc. 

Marty


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## 97fxdwg (Jan 20, 2012)

blt2ski said:


> 97,
> 
> Trust me, you did not stress me out, just had to have a little fun on the OP of the thread. The line I used was his favorite line to use when a 4 yr old thread was pulled up and a question or comment added to it. Then trust me on this, "HE WOULD BE STRESSED" over someone bringing up an old post! At times frankly, bringing up an old one is better than starting a new one. On the other hand, the other way also applies.....
> 
> ...


Thanks - I moved to this site because the other one was full of snide know-it-alls, lousy manners and general opinionated butts. It's great to have an opinion but there's seldom a reason to insult someone with yours.

Sintra is: "Sintra is a lightweight yet rigid board of moderately expanded closed-cell polyvinyl chloride (PVC) extruded in a homogenous sheet with a low gloss matte finish." I"ve had good luck using it on a few projects and am thinking about using it for my hull liner.

97


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Sounds like a reasonable material for "some" area's frankly. Not sure if it would work on all the area's. Then again, I have not felt the actual material nor seen it etc. best not to judge it too much.

HERE is a link to how I did the aft cabin, at the bottom of that has a link to how I did the head area of the boat. While you may not want to do it how I did, maybe some of my comments and whys will help you in your project.

I guess the question may beg, which "other one?" I can think of a dozen sailing forums off the top of my head. 2 have some pretty I'll use "heady" folks. one I do not post on ay more, do look at it on occasion.......the other....well, what can I say about SA, it is what it is, it does have an anything goes way about it, good or bad......

Marty


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