# AC 72 crashes, 1 dead



## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

The America's Cup Artemis boat crashed at 1PM today killing one sailor who was trapped under the boat. Ironically, it was the boat without foils. The wind was blowing 25-35 knots. Looks like the boat is toast.
British double Olympic medalist dies after America's Cup racing boat capsizes on San Francisco Bay | abc7news.com


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

_Preliminary reports indicate Artemis's boat didn't capsize because the sailors were pushing too hard or made a mistake, as was the case with Team Oracle. The problem was with the boat itself, either faulty engineering or faulty construction. The boat simply broke apart under sail, folded, then flipped. The Artemis boat has had a history of cracking and problems with the carbon fiber used in the twin "beams" - the two girders that lash the two narrow hulls together. The boat had been in and out of the shed numerous times in an attempt to correct those problems. Today, however, the forward beam - the girder in front of the sail - gave way during a practice run. The two hulls, no longer connected, began sailing in slightly different directions. This caused one hull to snap just forward of the aft beam, and the mast, held up by high-tension rigging connected to the front of the hulls, simply fell over. The boat began to cartwheel, ultimately trapping Simpson underneath and drowning him._

What Went Wrong in the Deadly America's Cup Crash | Autopia | Wired.com


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

Fstbttms said:


> _Preliminary reports indicate Artemis's boat didn't capsize because the sailors were pushing too hard or made a mistake, as was the case with Team Oracle. The problem was with the boat itself, either faulty engineering or faulty construction. The boat simply broke apart under sail, folded, then flipped._


_
Wow! That explains why the thing is so broken up. Can you imagine that at 40 knots with a 130 foot wing above you?? It would be terrifying and would make pitch poling look fun by comparison!
However, it could be a good thing for the AC as it puts the blame on the specific boat's construction, not the entire class. 
When I first heard about the incident, I thought: "Well, at the very least, foiling will be eliminated", only to find out the boat didn't have foils! Now I'm thinking maybe a 20 or 25 knot wind threshold may be in the works. I hope not, as that's an average Summer day on the bay! However, the City is probably going to want some reassurance the Louis Vuitton and AC won't turn into a gladiator sport on the SF Bay!_


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The most unfortunate part is the car crash is what could bring more spectators to the sport. I'm not good with it.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

This article puts the wind at only 15 to 20 knots, and claims the cat pearled before breaking up. America's Cup boat nosedived, broke into pieces
Haven't seen any footage on You Tube, which is surprising. Seems somebody is videoing the 72's anytime they are on the bay.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

NYT article this morning says each crew wore short-term oxygen supply - just in case. Would make it appear that Simpson was knocked unconscious or otherwise unable to get to it.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

L124C said:


> This article puts the wind at only 15 to 20 knots, and claims the cat pearled before breaking up. America's Cup boat nosedived, broke into pieces
> Haven't seen any footage on You Tube, which is surprising. Seems somebody is videoing the 72's anytime they are on the bay.


They said the wind was 20K gusting 30k.

Regards

Paulo


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

paulk said:


> NYT article this morning says each crew wore short-term oxygen supply - just in case. Would make it appear that Simpson was knocked unconscious or otherwise unable to get to it.


I'm pretty sure all the teams went thru training where they jumped off a 10-meter platform and had to activate their Spare Air bottles.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Had a friend on an AC45 which pitchpoled a couple of weeks ago in SFO. He was happy he was wearing a helmet: they were going 30 knots up on foils until the boat stopped and he got shot from the stern like a rock in a catapult.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

paulk said:


> NYT article this morning says each crew wore short-term oxygen supply - just in case. Would make it appear that Simpson was knocked unconscious or otherwise unable to get to it.


Apparently, the tanks supply about 3 minutes of air *IF* used sparingly. Tough to do while getting tossed around under a 72 foot cat in the cold murky waters of the SF Bay, after having possibly fallen 5 stories (in a full pitch pole)! Simpson was under for 10 minutes anyway. 
They also carry knives to cut rigging. 
One of the AC guys said they are now re thinking wearing the PFD's under the shirts, as the sailor doesn't have the option of removing the PFD if it's pinning him up into the wreckage. I wondered why they wore them that way, and assumed it was to reduce wind resistance, as it looks odd. Anyway, if everyone wears them on the outside, all things are equal.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

PCP said:


> They said the wind was 20K gusting 30k.
> Regards
> Paulo


As indicated in the OP, I saw the higher estimates as well. But another article stated: 
" Organizing official, Iain Murray, said conditions Thursday afternoon were typical on San Francisco Bay, which often sees hard-blowing winds. The Artemis was operating in winds of 15 to 20 knots, with occasionally stiffer gusts." 
As usual, info and speculation run wild early on. "Boat broke up before pearling", "Broke up after pearling" (very different implications!), "very windy, "average wind", etc. 
Tried to bring up the wind archives for Angel Island on Iwindsurf, but can't do it for some reason.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

L124C said:


> As indicated in the OP, I saw the higher estimates as well. But another article stated:
> " Organizing official, Iain Murray, said conditions Thursday afternoon were typical on San Francisco Bay, which often sees hard-blowing winds. The Artemis was operating in winds of 15 to 20 knots, with occasionally stiffer gusts."
> As usual, info and speculation run wild early on. "Boat broke up before pearling", "Broke up after pearling" (very different implications!), "very windy, "average wind", etc.
> Tried to bring up the wind archives for Angel Island on Iwindsurf, but can't do it for some reason.


Yes, it was said that the boat break first then pitch pole but if it had break the way it was said I doubt it would have pitch polled. The official statement is clear about the wind (18/20K with stronger gusts) and about the boat not being broke before pitch polled. They deserve more credibility than the newspapers...but they can be wrong.






regards

Paulo


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There needs to be something that will prevent a catastrophic event like pitchpoling a cat doing 40 kts with crew that will be tossed like a tissue box in a car crash.

Its possible that the boat should be designed to self destruct and absorb the energy, like cars essentially do today. See if Ellison has enough money to agree to that.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Minnewaska said:


> There needs to be something that will prevent a catastrophic event like pitchpoling a cat doing 40 kts with crew that will be tossed like a tissue box in a car crash...


Big multihulls can do that even if in smaller ones it is much more easy. Here you have another one doing that:






Asking for the impossibility of a cat pithcpoling at speed is as impossible as asking for the impossibility of a race car to flip over. It is not easy but it can happen.

You can ask for special equipment (that they already on the AC) and about training regarding the situation. You can also study safety precautions and I am quite sure that is going to be made, as well as training in what regards these situations but you cannot completely prevent danger or risks when high speeds are involved (only diminish risks), in sailing racing boats, racing motor boats and racing cars, unless you limit their speed to a safe one...and of course...that would not be racing anymore.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Some interesting takes an news:

*Patrizio Bert Ellis Italian team Luna Rossa - one of only three challengers of American defenders - is considering the withdrawal. ...In a statement from Prada boss and team owner Patrizio Bertelli, for decades with his Luna Rossa team one of the most passionate Cup-hunters, it said on Saturday: "The America's Cup is not good in its present form. It has passed from a romantic cup to become an extreme sport. I'll let my team decide whether we go ahead and accept any answer....

Yacht magazine:
The new America's Cup should be the Formula 1 of the seas. Now it is... With all the terrible consequences.

Oracle skipper James Spithill had said during a presentation of the Youth America's Cup in San Diego: "The more you accelerate, the faster sail du But there is a danger that you drive into a wall." Spithill was at the wheel, as the defender of the catamaran capsized in October 2012. *

Google Tradutor


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

PCP said:


> Some interesting takes an news:
> *Patrizio Bert Ellis Italian team Luna Rossa - one of only three challengers of American defenders - is considering the withdrawal. ...In a statement from Prada boss and team owner Patrizio Bertelli, for decades with his Luna Rossa team one of the most passionate Cup-hunters, it said on Saturday: "The America's Cup is not good in its present form. It has passed from a romantic cup to become an extreme sport. I'll let my team decide whether we go ahead and accept any answer....]*


*
Was Mr. Ellis not aware someone could be injured or killed when he signed up? Simpson's odds of being killed driving to the practice were probably much higher than being killed during it. Yet, most of us drive. It's cliché, but I think it needs to be said to keep things in perspective. 
Give me the action and athleticism of the current format anytime over the "romance". I'd bet almost every AC sailor would agree. If left to Ellis's "team", I'm guessing they stay in . 
Even knowing the risks, how many of us wouldn't jump at the offer to take the guest spot on the AC boats? I for one, wouldn't hesitate!
I save my romantic sentiments for my 40 year old mono hull and the Master Mariner regatta every year. I think our sport needs something exciting to watch, with cutting edge technology. The current format certainly qualifies, and yes...includes some risk. What worth doing doesn't? Well...I guess you could stay home and read War and Peace, but....*


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> There needs to be something that will prevent a catastrophic event like pitchpoling a cat doing 40 kts with crew that will be tossed like a tissue box in a car crash.
> 
> Its possible that the boat should be designed to self destruct and absorb the energy, like cars essentially do today. See if Ellison has enough money to agree to that.


a. Yes, you can do things to make pitch poling difficult. Slow down to monohull speeds. The reality is that this sort of racing will always push to the limit; if we make the hulls better... then we add more sail! So in performance mutihull sailing it will ALWAYS be possible. Unlike ballasted monos, they do not simply lean over.

b. The second paragraph makes no sense at all without explanation. Flying off a capsizing multi is exhilarating, but 95% of the time it is safer than staying.

c. Monos can pitch pole also, if high performance. I've seen it many times. If you built a planing 40-knot-in-20-knot-breeze mono I'm betting she would be a dangerous handful. It isn't a mono-multi issue, it's the power to weight and the no-limits philosophy.

In my mind, if they are not going to be free to build some thing crazy fast, there are other slow sailing venues.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

My point seems to be misunderstood. I'm not suggesting that they engineer a boat that won't pitchpole. I would insist that they engineer one that would not do so catastrophically, therefore, reducing its potential to kill someone. Air bags, crush zones, better gas mileage, etc, were only engineered upon insistence. Someone pushed back on each as unnecessary or impossible.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

L124C said:


> Was Mr. Ellis not aware someone could be injured or killed when he signed up? Simpson's odds of being killed driving to the practice were probably much higher than being killed during it. Yet, most of us drive. It's cliché, but I think it needs to be said to keep things in perspective.
> Give me the action and athleticism of the current format anytime over the "romance". I'd bet almost every AC sailor would agree. If left to Ellis's "team", I'm guessing they stay in .
> Even knowing the risks, how many of us wouldn't jump at the offer to take the guest spot on the AC boats? I for one, wouldn't hesitate!
> I save my romantic sentiments for my 40 year old mono hull and the Master Mariner regatta every year. I think our sport needs something exciting to watch, with cutting edge technology. The current format certainly qualifies, and yes...includes some risk. What worth doing doesn't? Well...I guess you could stay home and read War and Peace, but....


I totally agree.

If offered a ride, I would sign up in a minute. I am an adult and know the consequences. It is about speed, not necessarily wanting to see something macabre happen.

I Had the opportunity to drive a real Sprint Cup NASCAR on Charlotte Motor Speedway by myself and averaged laps of 160 for 20 minutes. Its all about the speed. That's the fascination.

The AC 72 is all about speed and tactics and state of the art design. Cutting edge. So what if it is a somewhat extreme sport other than the genteel days of old.

Listening to the Mamby Pambys trying to make it safer is not the point. You can only make gliders safer to a point. Maybe they should out law them? You can only make hot air balloons so safe, maybe they should be out lawed. How about base jumping.

These are adults making informed consent decisions.

Its sad the man died. Died doing what he loved.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> ....Listening to the Mamby Pambys trying to make it safer is not the point......


Are you kidding me? Name calling those that would suggest it should be safer? Someone lost their loved one to a sport that didn't give him any choice whatsoever. This is evidenced by all those that are so enamored by the idea of being aboard an AC racer and going fast, they would accept whatever risk presented. Give his family a call and let them know you think we're namby pambys, if you have the power of your conviction.

Yes, it should be safer. That doesn't require an absolute. I fully reject that the paid crew has any more choice than a factory worker in a dangerous factory. These men aspire to be AC racing crew and have no choice but to accept whatever risk the previous winner decides the next race is going to take. Mitigating this risk to a level where it's not so obvious that people with continue to be hurt or killed is human. There is no need to return to genteel days to do it.

I'm sure you did your NASCAR laps without a helmet or any other safety features, because you're no namby pamby.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Are you kidding me? Name calling those that would suggest it should be safer?  Someone lost their loved one to a sport that didn't give him any choice whatsoever. This is evidenced by all those that are so enamored by the idea of being aboard an AC racer and going fast, they would accept whatever risk presented. Give his family a call and let them know you think we're namby pambys, if you have the power of your conviction.
> 
> Yes, it should be safer. That doesn't require an absolute. I fully reject that the paid crew has any more choice than a factory worker in a dangerous factory. These men aspire to be AC racing crew and have no choice but to accept whatever risk the previous winner decides the next race is going to take. Mitigating this risk to a level where it's not so obvious that people with continue to be hurt or killed is human. There is no need to return to genteel days to do it.
> 
> 'm sure you did your NASCAR laps without a helmet or any other safety features, because you're no namby pamby.


An emotional outburst followed by a personal chiding , ridiculing, or lecturing...getting to be the norm Minnie. Your replies to me in posts seem personal as of late and not necessary. Please refrain

I haven't seen anyone of the AC racers or crews calling for any mega increased safety measures or blame the sport for the lack thereof. The factory worker analogy doesn't make sense. The Skippers and trimmers are compensated at over six figures from what I have been led to believe. That doesn't really make a difference on Safety really. It is* inherently *a dangerous venture

That doesn't mean I said to ignore the subject. It is an dangerous sport and greater risks are assumed if one participates. Loads on sails, speed pushing to the limit are art of this.

You illustration of going for NO safety measures is a bit of an overreaction to my post.

I didn't say go without helmets or that no safety measures should be employed and used. Of course they should. They should make the AC racers as safe as possible and employee all current measures to do that.
An illustration of that is just what they have done having them wear the extra oxygen which was a results of what they learned in a previous crash. I believed they are committed to continually improve personal safety. In NASCAR it took them years to use the HANS device and employ safer barriers. It took years to used safer fuel cells, roof flaps to prevent rollovers and restrictor plates at the Superspeedways/

This is an evolving sport and boat testing the limits is not unlike other sports doing the same It is the cutting edge of its technology and innovations as well as safety may be spun off of it just as it is in NASCAR cars.

While I too appreciate the beauty of the older mono-hulls and have sailed on Australia II in Maui, Stars and Stripes in both San Diego and in Narraganset Bay, I know that the AC races have utilized many differing formulas for their competition dating back many years, Changing the Americas Cup calling for it to go back to the genteel days of the 12 meter boats will not stop the continued development of these super cats.

As I mentioned before in this and other posts where there was a loss of life, human life is precious. A member of our sailing community even closer to home.

God bless Andrew Simpson and his family. May he find fair winds and following seas in heaven


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Interesting article from Oracles first crash posted on SA. Evidently the practice man overboard and emergency procedures quite a lot

The Boat That Could Sink the America's Cup | Autopia | Wired.com


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> An emotional outburst followed by a personal chiding , ridiculing, or lecturing...getting to be the norm Minnie. Your replies to me in posts seem personal as of late and not necessary. Please refrain
> 
> ....


I would ask the same. I don't recall name calling or making snide comments as you've seen to. Sorry if we see things differently, I suspect we often will. Hard to assess emotions in a post, but easy to read name calling.

Truce.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I would ask the same. I don't recall name calling or making snide comments as you've seen to. Sorry if we see things differently, I suspect we often will. Hard to assess emotions in a post, but easy to read name calling.
> 
> Truce.


Agreed...Truce Margaritas forever


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> My point seems to be misunderstood. I'm not suggesting that they engineer a boat that won't pitch pole. I would insist that they engineer one that would not do so catastrophically, therefore, reducing its potential to kill someone. Air bags, crush zones, better gas mileage, etc, were only engineered upon insistence. Someone pushed back on each as unnecessary or impossible.


It seems that the problem with the Artemis boat is that it _did_ self destruct catastrophically.
I think examination will determine that it had structural defiances. 
The 45's pitch poled on a regular basis, and usually could sail away from the incident. Most that didn't were repaired and ready to sail the next day. Check out the video link below which is a compilation of 45 and 72 cat capsizes (I suggest mute to avoid the irritating music!). The Oracle 72 (AC 17) capsize is 5 minutes into the video.
AC 17 seemed to basically survive it's pitch pole (in stronger conditions than the Artemis incident), only to have the wing destroyed after it sank in the strong current. One of the hulls ruptured after hours of having powerful boats tugging on it, attempting to recover the cat, as it drifted out the Gate in a strong ebb tide. No one was hurt in any of those incidents to my knowledge. 
If you look at the videos, the hulls are completely vertical and almost motionless for a while as sailors cling to the net like spiders. Then, sometimes someone looses their grip and goes swimming (or goes through the wing!). The incidents actually appear rather graceful, becuause the boats de-power so quickly. After the capsize, the only parts of the boat in the water are one hull, and the top of the wing. With the exception of the "Muscat" capsize 20 seconds into the video...MAN that was ugly!
It's speculation at this point, but it seems to me the Artemis boat probably never got close to vertical, but simply started coming apart, possibly while still moving at a good clip, creating a lot of debris in the water for Simpson to get trapped under.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

As I recall, the air tanks were provided from the begining on the 72's. 
This video was shot after AC 17 pitch poled, and it shows they were certainly not being cavalier about safety. One of the sailors says; "We were fortunate no one was hurt this time. We can't assume that will always be the case". 
Another says: "The drills were fun, but were also sobering. They drive home that what we do is pretty dangerous".


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