# We know NADA



## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

Hi all, first time boat owners. We have never sailed and of course jumped in feet first. We purchased a Mariner 40 and are looking forward to learning everything on her, from how to sail to what the hell does this switch do. She is currently on the hard in Florida and getting all of her upgrades done. Glad to have found this community, so much knowledge and experience in one place. Please don't be too harsh on us newbies. Attached is a pic of our girl, we kinda love her


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Love it. I did the same. Jump in the pool with both feet. Good for you.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Welcome aboard AdinaFloyd, quite the adventure you've launched into. She's a sweet looking boat. I considered a Mariner 40 when last in the market. Ended up with my Rafiki-37, which is similar in philiosphy.

Anyway, great to have you join us. Hope the learning curve isn't too steep or painful.


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## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

Thanks, I'm sure the learning curve will kick our A** but we will learn. Some things we learn will definitely be the hard way but isn't that the best way? I'm sure we will learn quickly what not to do....lol. We actually had a Rafiki in our need to view list! It sold before we made the trip though. 
Thanks for the welcome guys


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

That boat is Salty, with a capital S. From what I can see of the brightwork, she looks well maintained. Is that the boat with the fiberglass hull and wood decks/coach? Be prepared for every eye to be on you when you enter the harbor; that boat turns heads. As my wife would say: "It looks like Popeye's boat!" That's a compliment. 

The very best of luck to you. And don't sweat the learning curve; we've all had our asses kicked by sailing.


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## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

mstern said:


> That boat is Salty, with a capital S. From what I can see of the brightwork, she looks well maintained. Is that the boat with the fiberglass hull and wood decks/coach? Be prepared for every eye to be on you when you enter the harbor; that boat turns heads. As my wife would say: "It looks like Popeye's boat!" That's a compliment.
> 
> The very best of luck to you. And don't sweat the learning curve; we've all had our asses kicked by sailing.


Yes that's the one, she has been very well cared for, could use some teak oil some areas. The interior is immaculate. Thanks for the words of encouragement, oh and you are the first to say Popeyes boat, we have been getting the captain Ron calls since we bought her three months ago lol


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## Annapolitan (Feb 22, 2021)

Congrats from another new member. She looks fantastic, well done. I've sailed, but am also just about to buy my first boat (this Saturday). Good luck on your adventures.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Pretty boat.

From my experience, sailing lessons will help you learn more quickly than if you simply use trial and error. You do you.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Where abouts in Florida is the boat? Are you planning to keep it here, or take it back to NOLA? With a 5'8" draft, on the west coast of Florida, you are going to have to keep a close eye on the chart, and on the depth finder.

Please don't take this as criticism, but I am curious. If you don't know anything about sailing, then how did you decide what upgrades it needed?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Welcome to SailNet. In the past few years we have a very large group of new sailors joining SailNet and buying their first boats, As a moderator, I am very hopeful that SailNet will serve as platform that will allow an active exchange of ideas as these new sailors experience common and not very common experiences along the way. I would like to see these discussions act as a kind of decision and learning database that helps inform the decisions of those that are following along their own version of the same path.



AdinaFloyd said:


> Hi all, first time boat owners. We have never sailed and of course jumped in feet first. We purchased a Mariner 40 and are looking forward to learning everything on her, from how to sail to what the hell does this switch do. She is currently on the hard in Florida and getting all of her upgrades done. Glad to have found this community, so much knowledge and experience in one place. Please don't be too harsh on us newbies. Attached is a pic of our girl, we kinda love her
> 
> View attachment 139120


One of the things that new sailors often wrestle with is how to select 'the right boat' when they know very little about how a boat behaves and therefore what are desirable features to look for in their boat selection process. Most times the default first boat is smaller and more easily handled, more likely to reduce the learning curve and more suitable for the sail venue where they plan to sail.

Reading your opening post, clearly you have chosen a different direction having chosen to purchase what is essentially a motor sailor, that will be a very difficult platform to learn to sail on. I suggest that it might be helpful to other new sailors if you discuss the process that you went through and driving criteria that led you to select the Mariner 40 as your first boat, I think that your comments would provide some insights to those who might consider in making a similar selection. 
Jeff


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## s_ruffner (Aug 5, 2019)

eherlihy said:


> From my experience, sailing lessons will help you learn more quickly than if you simply use trial and error. You do you.


If you really know nada, I would 2nd this motion, for sure. And looking at your boat, I'd urge you to hire a captain (instructor) to take you out and give you lessons on your own boat. I have been sailing since I was a tween, but some of the absolutely most valuable instruction time I've ever had was maneuvering around the marina for a day with an instructor - docking, backing, turning, anchoring, etc. You might find the ASA103 quite useful, because learning how to sail with a simple sloop rig would probably be easier than on your ketch. Then go back to the ketch with that instructor and learn how to trim that rig.

I too am curious to hear why you selected this particular design; it does seem to have a ton of storage (I guess there is a giant locker aft?), and seems fairly roomy inside. It definitely ranks high on Pirate/Tall Ship style.


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## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

Annapolitan said:


> Congrats from another new member. She looks fantastic, well done. I've sailed, but am also just about to buy my first boat (this Saturday). Good luck on your adventures.


Oh please get on and share pics! Surely I cant be the only one that wants to seethe inside of every boat...lol. Congrats to you


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## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

denverd0n said:


> Where abouts in Florida is the boat? Are you planning to keep it here, or take it back to NOLA? With a 5'8" draft, on the west coast of Florida, you are going to have to keep a close eye on the chart, and on the depth finder.
> 
> Please don't take this as criticism, but I am curious. If you don't know anything about sailing, then how did you decide what upgrades it needed?


She is at Hollands in Jacksonville right now. Hopefully back in water in a week or so. Have an ASA instructor lined up to take us out and teach us on her. She will eventually be brought back to Nola and we have a marina lined up with plenty of depth to accommodate, according to them that is. I see you are also one to head to sailboat data when you hear a boat mentioned...lol. I have been doing that for a long time while researching boats and following others experiences.

No criticism taken, Ill take all information I can get. We have our goal set and looking forward to the good and bad. Cant have one without the other right? We didn't just run out and buy a boat, I researched long and hard about what we wanted and where we wanted to go. The upgrades are communications, navigations, solar with lithium bank, new electrical wiring and panel, watermaker, composting toilet, etc... as she had none of these. Things that really needed to be done for her age. All the above have been purchased and are being installed now. Oh and a power windlass because, well, yeah.


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## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

Jeff_H said:


> Welcome to SailNet. In the past few years we have a very large group of new sailors joining SailNet and buying their first boats, As a moderator, I am very hopeful that SailNet will serve as platform that will allow an active exchange of ideas as these new sailors experience common and not very common experiences along the way. I would like to see these discussions act as a kind of decision and learning database that helps inform the decisions of those that are following along their own version of the same path.
> 
> One of the things that new sailors often wrestle with is how to select 'the right boat' when they know very little about how a boat behaves and therefore what are desirable features to look for in their boat selection process. Most times the default first boat is smaller and more easily handled, more likely to reduce the learning curve and more suitable for the sail venue where they plan to sail.
> 
> ...


Hi Jeff,
We did do much research and we will be having an instructor taking us out for "classes", if we are gonna learn why not on our own boat. We chose her because we knew we wanted wanted a full keel, heavy displacement (we are not big on how fast can we go) and the price was right. I didn't want to get a boat, then trade in for bigger every few years. We wanted to start with the one we hope to be with for many, many years as we will be living on her as of next May (this is another reason we went with a bigger boat first). I did research her handling and know that they are slow and don't like moving around marina's, apparently the previous owner did as well because he installed a bow thruster. It will not be a cake walk but I have zero doubt that we will be able to learn her and her temperament. We know that we will eventually make crossings after we spend a year or more around Florida and the keys learning and gaining experience. Several steps have been taken and we know our end game. While the hubby has never sailed he has spent plenty of time on the water (sea duty, USMC) He loves the ocean and so do I. We have been on water for years but never sailed, so here's to the first steps ?
Really enjoying all the information being shared on this site.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

AdinaFloyd said:


> Have an ASA instructor lined up to take us out and teach us on her.


Hopefully, you have engaged with the instructor directly, and did not go through a school. Assuming that you don't care about "certifications to bareboat charter," you'll save a bunch of $$ this way.


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## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

eherlihy said:


> Hopefully, you have engaged with the instructor directly, and did not go through a school. Assuming that you don't care about "certifications to bareboat charter," you'll save a bunch of $$ this way.


Yes, we are dealing one on one with an instructor. We have no concern for any type of chartering, just us and the three parrots that are coming along on the journey...lol.


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## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

s_ruffner said:


> If you really know nada, I would 2nd this motion, for sure. And looking at your boat, I'd urge you to hire a captain (instructor) to take you out and give you lessons on your own boat. I have been sailing since I was a tween, but some of the absolutely most valuable instruction time I've ever had was maneuvering around the marina for a day with an instructor - docking, backing, turning, anchoring, etc. You might find the ASA103 quite useful, because learning how to sail with a simple sloop rig would probably be easier than on your ketch. Then go back to the ketch with that instructor and learn how to trim that rig.
> 
> I too am curious to hear why you selected this particular design; it does seem to have a ton of storage (I guess there is a giant locker aft?), and seems fairly roomy inside. It definitely ranks high on Pirate/Tall Ship style.


I touched on why we chose her above, and all the storage is definitely one of the reasons. We will absolutely be having an instructor going with us and teaching us on many, many outing's. There is alot to learn and I will feel more comfortable with more than one or two training outings. I will definitely look into ASA103, I'll take all the training I can get.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

I would suggest you get some time on a small boat, sailing dingy or slightly larger . the learning curve on a 40' full keel will be very steep. sailing when out and away from the harbor is easy but it does not give you experience when in tight areas and when the S hits the fan. You don't get to make many mistakes on a 40 foot boat before things can get real serious. Learning what forces are acting on the boat and how to control them is very important to really knowing how to sail and it will take months to years on a big boat what you can learn in days on a small one. Then you will be another sailor that can tell the next student how they should learn on a small boat first because you will understand why.


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## s_ruffner (Aug 5, 2019)

AdinaFloyd said:


> I touched on why we chose her above, and all the storage is definitely one of the reasons. We will absolutely be having an instructor going with us and teaching us on many, many outing's. There is alot to learn and I will feel more comfortable with more than one or two training outings. I will definitely look into ASA103, I'll take all the training I can get.


I'd certainly defer to your instructor on the ASA103, my point was really just about getting on a smaller, simpler rig; it's awesome that you have someone lined up!

Yeah, for live aboard, I can definitely see the appeal in that boat. Have fun!


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

As you will see, there's not a lot of love for those of us who appreciate the more traditional lines and full-keels of boats like yours (and mine). But I applaud your choice. Good plan to hire an instructor. I'd spend as much time as you both need to gain some skills and some confidence, but once you've got the basics there's really nothing like learning yourself.

Sailing is really not hard to do. It takes a lifetime to master, but you can learn the basics in a very short time. I always suggest new boat owners pick some days with low (but not no) winds, head offshore a few miles away from all obstacles, and simply play around.


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## GlanRock (Feb 26, 2013)

Welcome to the club! A beautiful boat! Good for you two choosing the boat that YOU wanted and jumping in. No matter what type you choose, there are going to be pluses and minuses either way. We bought one in 2013, sailed around for years, and moved on last year from it. Its a journey that takes one day at a time for all of us. Congratulations on starting yours!


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Mike has spilled the dirty little secret about sailing: it's really not very difficult to learn the basics. You will learn much more quickly on a small boat, but the physics are the same regardless of the size or rig. The real pucker factor comes in when trying to maneuver in the marina. I highly recommend this book:









Maneuver and Dock Your Sailboat Under Power: High Winds, Current, Tight Marina, Backing In? No Problems!: Headifen, Grant: 9781944824068: Amazon.com: Books


Maneuver and Dock Your Sailboat Under Power: High Winds, Current, Tight Marina, Backing In? No Problems! [Headifen, Grant] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Maneuver and Dock Your Sailboat Under Power: High Winds, Current, Tight Marina, Backing In? No Problems!



www.amazon.com





When I moved up to my current boat, I went from a trailer sailer with an outboard to an 8000lb fixed keel, inboard diesel. Getting in and out of my slip became an adventure. I hired a captain to show me the ropes, bought the above book and did all of the exercises in there. It made a big difference in my confidence.

One more pro tip: get an extra boat hook, and duct tape a boxing glove over the hook end. One crew member patrolling the deck with that thing during docking/undocking, and you will feel good that they can fend off those unfortunately placed neighboring boats. Not to mention that it's a great conversation starter around sundowner time.


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## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

MikeOReilly said:


> As you will see, there's not a lot of love for those of us who appreciate the more traditional lines and full-keels of boats like yours (and mine). But I applaud your choice. Good plan to hire an instructor. I'd spend as much time as you both need to gain some skills and some confidence, but once you've got the basics there's really nothing like learning yourself.
> 
> Sailing is really not hard to do. It takes a lifetime to master, but you can learn the basics in a very short time. I always suggest new boat owners pick some days with low (but not no) winds, head offshore a few miles away from all obstacles, and simply play around.


This was the route we were planning on going. No way do I want to get a feel for her handling anywhere near other boats or obstacles. I really love the classic lines on these boats. I never have been much on modern looks, I like the old style. I have no regrets, we got an outstanding price according to our boat surveyor. The only thing I'm figuring on right now is how to make a Bimini. She has a low riding mizzen boom. There is an old blog I found where the owner had a Dodger/Bimini on the same boat. I have been trying to track them down but no luck. They wrote the book of great anchorages and had a blog about their vessel sea trek. I wish I could find out what all he did... still gonna keep trying to get in touch. 
Thank you so much for your encouragement, I appreciate it. It may not be the best or easiest way but we feel it's the best way for us.


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## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

mstern said:


> Mike has spilled the dirty little secret about sailing: it's really not very difficult to learn the basics. You will learn much more quickly on a small boat, but the physics are the same regardless of the size or rig. The real pucker factor comes in when trying to maneuver in the marina. I highly recommend this book:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


?? I will try that just to get the strange looks. I'm gonna hope that that bow thruster will help me some. But I know just from what I've read that these big heavy full keel boats really hate marinas, definitely gonna be practicing tight moves out in the open water. I will get this book, can never learn too much. Thanks for the recommendation and the pro tips ?


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## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

GlanRock said:


> Welcome to the club! A beautiful boat! Good for you two choosing the boat that YOU wanted and jumping in. No matter what type you choose, there are going to be pluses and minuses either way. We bought one in 2013, sailed around for years, and moved on last year from it. Its a journey that takes one day at a time for all of us. Congratulations on starting yours!


Thank you ? we are really excited to get out there and start learning. Can't wait to be able to say we have been sailing around for years.... but as you say one day at a time. Appreciate the kind words


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

Congrats Adina on the pretty boat and welcome to the forum!

You say you are moving onto the boat next month, but nothing about your sailing plans. Is this essentially a houseboat that may leave the slip for some weekend adventures or are you heading somewhere? 

With regard to learning to sail, an instructor on your own boat is definitely a good idea. But if you are complete sailing novices, an intro course on a much smaller boat first will really speed the learning curve.


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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

Beautiful boat! And if you truly have three parrots you’re halfway to pirate status already.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

danvon said:


> Beautiful boat! And if you truly have three parrots you're halfway to pirate status already.


Funny story... we were tied to a dock a few years ago and I was sitting down below with the ports open. I hear the pattering of obviously little feet come up to our boat, and then a little girl's voice can be heard saying: _"Oh Daddy, look at the pirate ship! Can we go see?!?"_ It was too cute. I happily gave them a tour of our floating home.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

I suspect that in 20 -25 knot winds and 6-8 seas that boat will come into it's own and put a big $hip eating grin on your face.


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## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

danvon said:


> Beautiful boat! And if you truly have three parrots you're halfway to pirate status already.


Woohooo,half way there already!!! Clockwise from top let: Tootie (TAG), Scarlett (Eclectus), Jax (CAG) and our angel Nappy who is no longer with us. We have no human kids, just these feathered demons ?


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## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

emcentar said:


> Congrats Adina on the pretty boat and welcome to the forum!
> 
> You say you are moving onto the boat next month, but nothing about your sailing plans. Is this essentially a houseboat that may leave the slip for some weekend adventures or are you heading somewhere?
> 
> With regard to learning to sail, an instructor on your own boat is definitely a good idea. But if you are complete sailing novices, an intro course on a much smaller boat first will really speed the learning curve.


No, she will hopefully be going back in the water by next month. We won't be full time into next year. Got a really good job now so we will be saving up more for a cushion. Once we move aboard we will be going out with experienced guys for weekend trips to start off. Once she goes into the water we have an instructor that will be taking us out and teaching us on her. That will be happening about once or twice a month on our off weekends. I appreciate the learning curve tip and will discuss it with the hubby. Thanks ?


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## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

contrarian said:


> I suspect that in 20 -25 knot winds and 6-8 seas that boat will come into it's own and put a big $hip eating grin on your face.


This was the hope when we picked out this heavy ol' girl....lol. Thanks


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## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

MikeOReilly said:


> Funny story... we were tied to a dock a few years ago and I was sitting down below with the ports open. I hear the pattering of obviously little feet come up to our boat, and then a little girl's voice can be heard saying: _"Oh Daddy, look at the pirate ship! Can we go see?!?"_ It was too cute. I happily gave them a tour of our floating home.


I love this, they do stand out on the dock don't they ❤


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

contrarian said:


> I suspect that in 20 -25 knot winds and 6-8 seas that boat will come into it's own and put a big $hip eating grin on your face.


The problem with that is that these boats are miserable in heavy going. They tend to roll through very large roll angles and get out of phase with the wave train. It is important to understand that these Asian built Fiberglass interpretations of traditional Garden designs lack the ballasting of the wooden versions and have a lot more weight above the roll axis than the original wooden designs on which they are based. Beyond my own experience with these boats, reading accounts of cruising in these fiberglass interpretations, they have a greater tend to 'dig in' and broach. They lack the stability relative to drag to handle high winds. They have proven more prone to being rolled or pitchpoled. As a broad generality, these boats are happiest reaching in 10-15 knots of wind, are motor boats below maybe 8 knots, and get pretty scary in big winds and waves. They are largely a caricature of what an offshore boat rather than being anywhere near a more ideal design. It should be understood that these are very different boats than the long keel boats that designers like Bob Perry, the Atkins, Lyle Hess, and maybe Crealock designed, which really were good offshore boats.

Jeff


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

Jeff_H said:


> 't
> and maybe Crealock designed


A maybe in front of Wib Crealock ?????
You Can't be serious. Maybe.... that's a good one. I wouldn't be saying that in any salty bars with drunken sailors ... might be a good way to lose some teeth even if youse is right.
Cabo Rico 38
Pacific Seacraft 34,37, 40, 44
I'd trade my Hunter for any one of these Crealock designs even if they are just marginally good offshore boats.
I can't even believe that I put marginally good in the same sentence with Wib's name.
I think you have some explaining to do.......


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## AdinaFloyd (Apr 20, 2021)

Jeff_H said:


> The problem with that is that these boats are miserable in heavy going. They tend to roll through very large roll angles and get out of phase with the wave train. It is important to understand that these Asian built Fiberglass interpretations of traditional Garden designs lack the ballasting of the wooden versions and have a lot more weight above the roll axis than the original wooden designs on which they are based. Beyond my own experience with these boats, reading accounts of cruising in these fiberglass interpretations, , they a greater tend to 'dig in' and broach. They lack the stability relative to drag to handle high winds. They have proven more prone to being rolled or pitchpoled. As a broad generality, these boats are happiest reaching in 10-15 knots of wind, are motor boats below maybe 8 knots, and get pretty scary in big winds and waves. They are largely a caricature of what an offshore boat rather than being anywhere near a more ideal design. It should be understood that these are very different boats than the long keel boats that designers like Bob Perry, the Atkins, Lyle Hess, and maybe Crealock designed, which really were good offshore boats.
> 
> Jeff


I get it, you don't like them. I'm perfectly happy knowing the owners I spoke with are extremely happy with this boats performance in rough seas. See the voyages of sea-trek as their Mariner had carried them through 15 named storms. The other owners I conversed with are on the Mariner owners page. Have I heard some negatives, absolutely but I have also heard negatives on every other boat we looked at. If you know of someone that has had problems could you please let me know so I can question them personally about things they would have done differently? I would appreciate it as I am wanting to know all I can in advance of getting into weather. Yes, I know they are slow and do require more wind and I have had some owners say in lighter winds it takes a bit too get them going but once moving along they do fine. I went mostly on owners and previous owners experiences and most were very happy in regards to performance. I have no doubts this boat will handle just fine and carry us where we want, aside from shallow waters 🤷🏼‍♀️


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

It doesn't matter of whether or not I like or dislike the Mariner. What matters is that you like your boat and get to use her.

My view of the Mariner is solely based on my understanding the history of the design, yacht design science, how they were built, and my own experience sailing them.

Starting with the history, the design for the Mariner began as a Garden designed wooden boat. The design concept is loosely based on 19th century coastal commercial freight haulers miniaturized to the size of a yacht. The hull forms of working watercraft tend to be highly evolved in response to their specific purpose, which in the precedent vessels related to carrying the maximum cargo, in the smallest taxable size, with the cheapest construction available. That commercial imperative, resulted in largely cylindrical hull sections, and full ends, because that was easy to plank, and had the max volume for surface area resulting in a minimum amount of hull material, wetted surface and tax liability. But that hull form tends to roll a lot and does not produce much stability or damping.

When Bill Garden adapted the basic concept, the hull weight of the wooden boat was substantially lighter than the fiberglass versions. The weight difference between the two resulted in the wooden version having a higher ballast ratio. And that ballast was in the form of bolted on cast lead, which went a some distance towards dealing with the inherent lack of form stability.

The Asian built fiberglass designs were largely pirated from the original 1930's era designs. To keep build costs down, they were mostly built with encapsulated keels. Ballasting was in the form of scrap iron and concrete. (Some of these boats had an upcharge option of lead shot in polyester resin which definitely was better than steel in concrete) Collectively, the heavier weight hulls and cabin structure, the lower density ballast material, and raising the vertical center of gravity of the ballast due to the encapsulation envelope meant these boats had much less stability than the original wooden boat designs.

That loss of stability made these boats less forgiving than an offshore cruiser should be, and aggregated their tendency to roll excessively. To offset that loss of stability, the glass versions carried a much smaller sail plan than the original wooden boats. That hurt their light to moderate air ability. At the same time that lack of stability relative to drag hurt their heavy air ability.

Back in the day, my Mom was a boat importer who commissioned boat designs and had boats built in Taiwan and so was in and out of the yards. I consulted with her during those years and so heard a lot about how these boats were built. There were plusses and minuses, but few, if any of the plusses added to the seaworthiness or sailing ability oft these boats.

In the late 1970's a friend of mine bought one of these from an insurance auction. The boat had broached, and then been rolled almost 180 degrees out in the Atlantic off Savannah damaging the cabin sides, and blowing out the portlights in the doghouse. I helped him make the repairs to the cabin and replace much of the electrical system and so got to see a lot of the back corners of the boat. That gave me a pretty good hands on sense of the overall build quality.

I then helped him deliver that boat from the Wilmington River (Savannah) to Charleston where he planned to live aboard. Much of the trip was in winds between the high teens and mid 20 knot range. The boat was a handful in that wind range with two very experienced sailors on board. I had previously sailed on one of the wooden versions of this design and thought that it was a decent design for what it was. The sailing characteristics of this boat was completely different. The boat tended to roll excessively dipping it's rail in conditions where that never should have happened. Deep reaching, the boat tended to dig in and try to veer into a broach or death roll. Dropping the mainsail and trying a reef to reduce heel took away the steadying force of the sails. Coming up to a hotter angle increased roll and made steering more difficult. Turning down, buried the bow bringing green water over the deck, and risked a partial pitch pole/broach. When we slowed down to avoid the bow digging in, were randomly pooped by overtaking waves.

What should have been a 20 hour easy passage, ended up being nearly a 48 hour passage with the end of the trip in really tough and building conditions.

To further put this in perspective, this was an era when I owned, was designing traditional working watercraft based yachts. I spent a lot of time sailing on traditional designs by the likes of Rhodes, Alden, Stadel, Atkins and so had benchmarks for comparison. I was a fan of traditional working watercraft based yachts, and had a pretty good sense of their virtues and liabilities. But not all tradition based designs were created equal. The better designs remain good offshore capable cruisers. But these Garden pirated designs were something different, neither maintaining the virtues of traditional working watercraft nor taking advantage of the lessons learned in the century after designs like these first came into being.

While your mileage may vary, I did think that it is important to this discussion for you and other readers to understand where my comments derive from so any reader can decide how much weight to place on my comments.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I have found that it takes many owners three tries to end up on the right boat for their needs.
I had about ten years of sailing experience on many boats, racing and delivering them up and down the west coast, yet I purchased the most ludicrous boat to go cruising on that one could possibly buy. She had the pedigree, being a Rhodes designed, Stone built boat. Built expressly for the Transpac, she had 23 bags of sails (before roller furling) and she could outrun most motor cruisers of that period, on the Bay. 
But as a cruiser for a couple; no way. She was over sticked and meant to be sailed by a crew of 12 or more.
So, don't lose heart or worry too much at this point about your girl. She'll do for now, and maybe forever, but it isn't the end of your sailing days if you decide that another boat may better suit your needs sometime in the future.
Just remember, the only way to become proficient at sailing is to sail a lot, in all kinds of weather, not just on the nice days. Good luck and enjoy.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

It seems like I have some 'splaining' to do. This morning I exchanged some emails with a SailNet member who I am helping in his boat search. At the end of our email exchange he commented on this thread saying words to the effect of "I guess you think AdinaFloyd bought the wrong boat." That comment surprised me a little, since that is not what I think or meant by my posts, and told him so. Then he asked, "then what was the purpose of my earlier comments?" And when I explained why I posted my comments he suggested that I needed to add an explanation since my purpose did not come through in my posts. So here's the explanation.

First of all, we all buy the boat that makes sense to us. It doesn't matter whether anyone else agrees with that decision as long as that boat makes the owner happy. In this case, the owner did some research, selected a make and model and is pleased with their choice. I meant no criticism of that decision.

But in reading their comments, and that they had minimal experience and ambitious goals for this boat, I wanted to interject some caution based on my own experience with these boats in not all that challenging weather. Granted the coast of South Carolina and Georgia can get pretty rough in late spring, but this should have been a milk run for an offshore cruiser. And that was with two experienced traditional boat sailors with a deep toolbox of heavy weather tricks. (The other guy had sailed an Atkins Ingrid, to South America and back.)
But the other part of my motivation for my posts are the sheer number of new sailor's coming into the sport with ambitious goals. Boats like the Mariner can be very appealing to a new sailor since some of these boats have made impressive voyages, and the long keel and ketch rig would suggest that these are a conservative offshore design.

I felt that it was important to provide a counterpoint to that impression based on the realities of this boat as I experienced it: a reality which is that these are tough boats to handle in heavy going. While a skilled sailor might find them to be a satisfactory cruiser, and through experience find ways to deal with the short comings of the design, it should not be assumed that these boats, are a good choice for a newcomer even with a few years experience, to try to handle in heavier conditions.

But my other point is while there are some virtues to having a full keel as a distance cruiser, not all full keeled boats are equally seaworthy and seakindly.

As to my 'maybe Crealock' comment. That will need to be a topic for another day.

Jeff
EDIT: I also want to add this link to a several year old discussion on full keels and motion. The editing removed some of the nuance of the conversation and also it is edited so the explanation jumps from a sentence that is general discussion of hull form and motion to responding to some questions on the Westsail 32 specifically., but it does touch on some of what I was commenting on above.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

Jeff_H said:


> As to my 'maybe Crealock' comment. That will need to be a topic for another day.


No need for further discussion. I have no desire whatsoever to cross oceans on a sailboat. if I were to get another boat it would probably be a Jeanneau 36 or 39i unless I came into a windfall of cash in which case my choice would be a Jeanneau 410 swing keel. I'm perfectly happy to putter around my own little piece of paradise under ideal conditions. As to my comment on 20 to 25 knots of wind and 6 to 8 foot seas, I consider this to be the lower end of heavy weather sailing for heavy displacement boats and the upper range of heavy weather for my Hunter. When I brought the Hunter up from St. Pete the forecast was for ENE winds at 15-20 which I thought would be a bit much but doable. Problem was the that the wind began to to back as we headed NNW and increased to 20 -25 and the seas increased from 4-6 to 6-8 which we had about 30 hours of and did pretty close to hull speed under a double reefed main and partially furled jib according to my friend who was monitoring our progress via In-Reach. That was up until the last 50 miles to the pass by which time the wind had backed all the way to NNW and the wind picked up to a steady 25 with higher gusts which caused the waves to be steeper and closer together. When this occurred we could barely make 3 knots over ground, when we would come off of one wave we would plow into the next one and it felt like you were hitting a brick wall. After 48 hours with little sleep and then another 18 to make the last 50 I don't think there could be any way I could have been more relieved to get inside that pass. My friend that helped me deliver the boat commented that it was an experience he would never forget and never regret but he sure as hell wouldn't do it again. Like my friend, that adventure squelched any desire I had for ocean crossings. Maybe had I been delivering one of WIB's or Bob Perry's boats I wouldn't have felt that way. Say what you will about Hunters but I know mine can take more than I'm willing to put up with.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

contrarian said:


> No need for further discussion. I have no desire whatsoever to cross oceans on a sailboat. if I were to get another boat it would probably be a Jeanneau 36 or 39i unless I came into a windfall of cash in which case my choice would be a Jeanneau 410 swing keel. I'm perfectly happy to putter around my own little piece of paradise under ideal conditions. As to my comment on 20 to 25 knots of wind and 6 to 8 foot seas, I consider this to be the lower end of heavy weather sailing for heavy displacement boats and the upper range of heavy weather for my Hunter. When I brought the Hunter up from St. Pete the forecast was for ENE winds at 15-20 which I thought would be a bit much but doable. Problem was the that the wind began to to back as we headed NNW and increased to 20 -25 and the seas increased from 4-6 to 6-8 which we had about 30 hours of and did pretty close to hull speed under a double reefed main and partially furled jib according to my friend who was monitoring our progress via In-Reach. That was up until the last 50 miles to the pass by which time the wind had backed all the way to NNW and the wind picked up to a steady 25 with higher gusts which caused the waves to be steeper and closer together. When this occurred we could barely make 3 knots over ground, when we would come off of one wave we would plow into the next one and it felt like you were hitting a brick wall. After 48 hours with little sleep and then another 18 to make the last 50 I don't think there could be any way I could have been more relieved to get inside that pass. My friend that helped me deliver the boat commented that it was an experience he would never forget and never regret but he sure as hell wouldn't do it again. Like my friend, that adventure squelched any desire I had for ocean crossings. Maybe had I been delivering one of WIB's or Bob Perry's boats I wouldn't have felt that way. Say what you will about Hunters but I know mine can take more than I'm willing to put up with.


IMO, my definition of a good vessel is that it can take more than it's crew can.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

One more reference point that provides another source on the behavior of these boats at sea, I suggest reading Reanne Hemingway-Douglass's book "Cape Horn: One Man's Dream, One Woman's Nightmare" Cape Horn: One Man's Dream, One Woman's Nightmare: Reanne Hemingway-Douglass: 9780938665830: Amazon.com: Books. While much of what is described in the book occurs in more extreme conditions than I experienced, much of what she discusses parallels my own experiences with this design. I should note that the boat in this true story is a wooden version of the design and the wooden versions had a lot more stability than the glass versions.

Jeff


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

contrarian said:


> I have no desire whatsoever to cross oceans on a sailboat. if I were to get another boat it would probably be a Jeanneau 36 or 39i unless I came into a windfall of cash in which case my choice would be a Jeanneau 410 swing keel. I'm perfectly happy to putter around my own little piece of paradise under ideal conditions. As to my comment on 20 to 25 knots of wind and 6 to 8 foot seas, I consider this to be the lower end of heavy weather sailing for heavy displacement boats and the upper range of heavy weather for my Hunter.


This is a man after my own heart


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

capta said:


> IMO, my definition of a good vessel is that it can take more than it's crew can.
> View attachment 139156


What I call a good boat is one that makes the ride so the crew can take any thing that the boat can
That would not include a Mariner 40 our family owned one for one summer, my younger brothers called her rolly polly.


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

I too wonder why so many new sailors have such big sailing dreams and wish more of them would come back to the forum after a few years and tell us how they are doing. 

I confess I enjoy the pleasures of small dreams: long weekends in a beautiful anchorage, a gorgeous day sail on a lake, a picnic sail with friends, maybe I'll start chartering when I've seen everything the local waters offer.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

emcentar said:


> I too wonder why so many new sailors have such big sailing dreams and wish more of them would come back to the forum after a few years and tell us how they are doing.
> 
> I confess I enjoy the pleasures of small dreams: long weekends in a beautiful anchorage, a gorgeous day sail on a lake, a picnic sail with friends, maybe I'll start chartering when I've seen everything the local waters offer.


Two very different points, and I give both a big thumbs up.

I very much hope that the new sailors with big dreams love the journey and keep with it, even if it turns out differently than they planned. And I'd love to hear the updates.

And I agree that small dreams are the best. My "big" dreams aren't even a blip on Jimmy Cornell's radar. But they sure make me happy. But I will say that I didn't wait to fulfill my local ambitions before I chartered. I finally convinced some friends to pull the trigger with us, and so just before COVID hit, we chartered a catamaran in the Virgin Islands. A 50 foot cat with a captain and cook/mate. OMG. Words cannot describe how great a trip this was. My original plan was to be the captain, but as my wife pointed out, that wouldn't be much of a vacation for her (what with the cooking and such). So we went with the luxury package. Either way, I cannot oversell the experience. Wow.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have been coaching people as they learn to sail, buy their first boat, upgrade their boats, go through their learning process, and for many as they go out there. I have literally worked with scores of folks over the years.

There was a time when I would get an email maybe once every month or two. Those emails often read something like, "I don't know much about sailing, but I want to learn to sail, buy a boat and sail around the world. What boat should I buy."

Typically, I try to get the person to verbalize what motivated their goal and tell me more about themselves. I found that there was an incredibly broad range of people who chose what at first blush sounded essentially like an identical set of goals. But on closer examination, there was almost no commonality to the specifics.

For some, it was all about seeing diverse cultures up close. For some it's about the challenge of sailing almost non-stop across oceans. Some wanted an experience for their children. Some were retiree couples and single-handers trying to enjoy their senior years. Yet others were fresh out of high school or college. Some just wanted to get out of Dodge. Budgets varied between less than $10k, to hundreds of thousands of dollars.

And just as different as the individuals were, their approaches and outcomes were equally as diverse. Many did manage to learn and go distance voyaging. Some made it around the world. Others discovered that sailing was an end in itself and never went very far from home but still enjoyed their time sailing.

Of all of those folks, the ones who went farthest and who got out there fastest were those who started with a modest scale boat and methodically determined what they felt that they needed to learn, and studied it one step at a time. Then moved up to a boat to go voyaging.

Of all of those folks I worked with, the ones who bought what they thought would be 'the ultimate boat' they would sail around the world as their first boat, almost never made it out there. To some extent that often was the net result of an approach that attempted to leapfrog the necessary steps to develop the range of skills needed to safety voyage under sail.

Those people often tore at my heart as their dreams came crashing down around their ears in ways that could be foreseen and averted if they made a responsible effort to prepare for what they wanted to do. Often those people left the sport bitter about the experience.

In recent years, I have been increasing meeting people who think that they can watch a few Youtubes, take a few courses and somehow obtain the necessary skills. For a talented few, that seems to work. More often, not so much.And while there are people who have successfully gone voyaging with minimal training and experience, those who do so successfully seems to be a rare case.

And after 30 years of watching the ebb and flow of would be circumnavigators, I have never seen a period where SailNet has experienced more new sailors hoping to do epic voyaging. It seems like a weekly occurrence that a new sailor with ambitious goals joins the community. In some ways that instills optimism that our sport will continue to thrive into the future. But in other ways, this is worrisome. 

It will be interesting to see how this plays out as an increasingly large number of folks snap up ancient relics and try to go voyaging. Hopefully they will do their homework and succeed. Hopefully, they won't end up like one guy I had worked with a few decades ago. He had insisted on buying a 42 footer as his first boat., The boat he chose was a super choice as a cruiser and but it was too big to learn to sail on easily. That particular boat had been all over the US East Coast and Caribbean single-handed by a young woman and was very well set up. 

I had offered to sail with him and help him learn how to handle the boat in a range of conditions. He was in a hurry to 'go south' and with my work schedule, chose instead to pay a 'captain' for a week of sailing instruction and then leave. The first night out, he got caught in a squall out on the Bay and was not able to get the engine to run. He called me on his cellphone and I talked him through reefing furling the jib and reefing the mainsail, heaving to and was explaining how to figure out what was happening with the engine when he ran out of battery on his phone. He eventually was towed in and a while later sold the boat and chose another sport. 

That story had a sad but not a tragic ending. With greater frequency, the coast guards of the world are called upon to perform life saving rescues. Those kinds of events can have larger consequences that could potentially complicate the lives of normal sailors. This might be seen in what Australia and New Zealand did when they got tired of rescuing hapless newbies. Portugal seems to be moving the same direction.

Jeff


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

overbored said:


> What I call a good boat is one that makes the ride so the crew can take any thing that the boat can
> That would not include a Mariner 40 our family owned one for one summer, my younger brothers called her rolly polly.


Boats don't get tired, hungry and feel getting beat to $hit, but people do. Also, I've never been on any boat that was comfortable in all conditions.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I'm not sure if there are more newbies on SN these days -- could be. I tend to ignore the kinds of threads that start with: _I know nothing but feel it is my calling to sail around the world. _Generally these folks don't even know what questions to ask, so there's not much I can do for them at this early stage. I figure they'll go out and learn some stuff, and the serious ones will come back with real questions.

When I do make a suggestion to new folks it's always along the lines of encouraging them to get real experience now. Find a friend with a boat and go sailing. Become a club racer if that's possible. Take some liveaboard courses (not a fan of classroom courses). Best option of all: buy yourself a modest cruising-level boat and get out there with it as much as possible.

By cruising level I generally mean a modest monohull in the 26 to 30 foot range (give or take, depending on the type of boat and size of crew). You want one which has all the systems of a larger cruising boat: rig, engine, electrical, plumbing, a functional galley, sufficient storage, berths and a head.

The objective with this boat is to get out there and actually learn some cruising skills. You'll quickly find that the easiest part of owning a sailboat is sailing. It's all the rest of the stuff that is a challenge. This is about learning a lot of skills, but mainly about learning the lifestyle. It's also about learning what you (and your crew) think is important for your boat. What do you really need in _THE_ boat.

BTW, I'm not a big fan of chartering as a means to learn. On the plus side it gives you some exposure to certain boats. But it really avoids most of the important (harder) stuff about cruising.


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## Rek (Apr 28, 2021)

MikeOReilly said:


> When I do make a suggestion to new folks it's always along the lines of encouraging them to get real experience now. Find a friend with a boat and go sailing. Become a club racer if that's possible. Take some liveaboard courses (not a fan of classroom courses). Best option of all: buy yourself a modest cruising-level boat and get out there with it as much as possible.


Second that. I bought my boat 5 yrs ago with zero experience, had never stepped on a boat before... but joined a local yacht club and raced on other people's boats, and that helped me a lot. As you said, just going out there is the most important thing, and in a pre-covid world, asking help from sailors on the docks was always really fun. Most sailors are so knowledgeable.


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

I always enjoy hearing about Jeff's experiences, and really appreciate how generous he is with his time and expertise. 

The folks at Sailnet were invaluable when I was shopping for my boat. They steered me toward boats appropriate to my sailing waters, my short-handed crew, and my level of experience, boats I may not have strongly considered given my inexperience. Then early into my search a member sent me a tip about another member who was selling a boat he thought might be perfect for me. Seven years later I still think my Pearson is a perfect 'beginner' cruising boat. 

The best - and worst - thing about cruising is the learning curve. I've learned so much over the last seven years about boats, systems, navigation, anchoring, docking. And I've learned how much I still need to learn: my last sail of the season for instance I had a near collision in a shipping channel. I saw on my AIS I was on a collision course from ahead and behind by two different fast-moving commercial boats, and I froze, completely at a loss for what to do. Didn't occur to me until after they both passed me on bow and stern with thankfully enough distance for safety that I should have gotten on the radio and tried to alert them. I now read sailing magazines mostly for articles about disasters underway so I can better prepare for them (never occurred to me before, for instance, to test my emergency tiller before I might need it). But there's no teacher like experience.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

emcentar said:


> I always enjoy hearing about Jeff's experiences, and really appreciate how generous he is with his time and expertise.


Thank you for the kind words and for your insight full post.

Jeff


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

emcentar said:


> I too wonder why so many new sailors have such big sailing dreams and wish more of them would come back to the forum after a few years and tell us how they are doing.


I think the reason that so few come back later (or stick around throughout) is pretty simple. They made some poor choices early on (usually with plenty of warnings from more experienced sailors and voyagers), went astray, and have no desire to come back and share their failures with the world. Those who come back to tell us how things went are the ones for whom it was a great success.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

emcentar said:


> I always enjoy hearing about Jeff's experiences, and really appreciate how generous he is with his time and expertise.
> 
> The folks at Sailnet were invaluable when I was shopping for my boat. They steered me toward boats appropriate to my sailing waters, my short-handed crew, and my level of experience, boats I may not have strongly considered given my inexperience. Then early into my search a member sent me a tip about another member who was selling a boat he thought might be perfect for me. Seven years later I still think my Pearson is a perfect 'beginner' cruising boat.
> 
> The best - and worst - thing about cruising is the learning curve. I've learned so much over the last seven years about boats, systems, navigation, anchoring, docking. And I've learned how much I still need to learn: my last sail of the season for instance I had a near collision in a shipping channel. I saw on my AIS I was on a collision course from ahead and behind by two different fast-moving commercial boats, and I froze, completely at a loss for what to do. Didn't occur to me until after they both passed me on bow and stern with thankfully enough distance for safety that I should have gotten on the radio and tried to alert them. I now read sailing magazines mostly for articles about disasters underway so I can better prepare for them (never occurred to me before, for instance, to test my emergency tiller before I might need it). But there's no teacher like experience.


Absolutely the best emergency steering system for any cruising boat is a proper auto pilot connected directly to the quadrant.
We have a beautiful emergency tiller, but I can't imagine that the world's strongest man could use it in any but the calmest conditions. Be sure if you are relying on it, that you can physically use it, or have the rigging necessary to do so mechanically.


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