# The Ocean is broken? really?



## hertfordnc (Sep 10, 2007)

I sold my boat a couple years ago and stopped hanging out here but my login still works so I am back with questions about this article (link pasted below)

Are ocean crossers really seeing a profound collapse in fish from just a few years ago? Do you really fire up the engine and just motor when the wind drops off?

I know there are serious problems with oceans worldwide. But this article had a funny smell to it and it got me curious.

The ocean is broken | Newcastle Herald

Thanks for indulging me

Dave Silva

Former owner of S/V Puffin, 1976 Camper Nicholson 31


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

Who knows how much nuke waste leaked from those reactors. I'm sure whatever they said it was just multiple by 100,000


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## hertfordnc (Sep 10, 2007)

I don't doubt the affects of Fukishima and all the other bad things we do. But i thought the article had a touch of reactionary BS in it and i am checking that here for my own curiousity.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

That was not our experience in crossing the Pacific and Indian Oceans in the Southern Hemisphere. We saw a lot of life and crossing the Indian we caught fish (always Mahi Mahi) whenever we wanted them - and this is not to suggest that overfishing is not a problem. The only places we have seen concentrations of garbage were 50 miles or so off the shores of Panama and Colombia in the Caribbean. There seemed to a line about 200 m wide where sea weed and plastic collect, and on the island of Suwarrow in the Cook Islands where there were hundreds of flip flops. Don't know if these were from a broken container. They appeared very different in terms of the amount of weathering.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

The oceans may or may not be "broken". Certainly, they've been impacted. But the article is not a scientific treatise by any means. There's plenty of actual data available that you and I, and the author of the article could access.


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

The environmental doomsday rhetoric has always been way over the top. I've lost track of how many doomsday deadlines have passed with absolutely no notice. What really annoys me is how there is zero accountability for all the folks that make these false proclamations.


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## seafrontiersman (Mar 2, 2009)

I work the sea 200+ days a year and I can tell you that there are lots and lots of fish and sea birds out there. This article sound like typical tree hugging propaganda.


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

Right. All that plastic belongs there. Those millions of gallons of crude from DWH had no effect. The Fukashima leak (continues) to have no effect. Everything is fine!!


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

Promised my kids Bahamian Blue water while visiting the beach at Boca Grande FL this past summer. What we got was 95 degree pesticide flavored polluted outflow from Lake Okeechobee. As far as the eyes could see up and down the coast. I almost cried. Packed up and left.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I've met Ivan. We happened to be sharing the same marina just before he set off from Newcastle NSW to Melbourne Vic for the start of the Melb - Oaska race. The man's bullshite output is remarkably low and if he is worried about what he saw out there then I for one am happy to believe him. He is first and foremost a racing sailor. While I'm sure he'd be happy to be called a greenie he is not an activist by any stretch of the imagination. 

As noted in the article Ivan is at pains to acnowledge that a lot of what they were seeing was a result of the Japanese Tsumani, it was not simply about ongoing pollution or as noted by a presumably climate change denier , tree hugger propaganda. Nonetheless denying that the oceans are suffering is head in the sand absduridity of the lowest order. 

(Mod hat on for the moment .... sad though it may be, if this thread spends too much time in "tree hugging propaganda" mode it will end up in PRWG.)


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

tdw said:


> (Mod hat on for the moment .... sad though it may be, if this thread spends too much time in "tree hugging propaganda" mode it will end up in PRWG.)


Might as well buy it a ticket Fuzzy...


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

jppp said:


> Right. All that plastic belongs there. Those millions of gallons of crude from DWH had no effect. The Fukashima leak (continues) to have no effect. Everything is fine!!


I'm not claiming everything is fine but this story makes my point very well if you just look at it closely enough.

Let's all dispense with the hyperbole.


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## TerryBradley (Feb 28, 2006)

jppp said:


> Right. All that plastic belongs there. Those millions of gallons of crude from DWH had no effect. The Fukashima leak (continues) to have no effect. Everything is fine!!


Whew! Glad to hear that all is not lost JP. Feel a real sense of relief


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## tdoster (Feb 21, 2012)

In this era of political correctness, the reality is no one ever goes back to recreate the baseline and pads science with opinion akin to Richard Fenymann's Cargo Cult Science. The Elephant in the Room is always the root of all problems defined simply too many people occupying too small a space. (Too many people = root problem not consumption as the by-product.) 

Nothing sickens the sailors heart more than sailing through a flotsam of garbage, especially after large storms or disasters purged it from the shores to the sea. This is even more disheartening when thousands of miles from shore in an area we would expect to be free of the effects of man. But, luckily, this is the still the exception and not the rule.

I do agree that the effects of nitrogen based fertilizer is far more damaging to the immediate environment than 10 Deep Water Horizon spills. 

The reality is balance. Man creates an imbalance and nature works to eventually balance it back out.


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## seafrontiersman (Mar 2, 2009)

tdoster said:


> In this era of political correctness, the reality is no one ever goes back to recreate the baseline and pads science with opinion akin to Richard Fenymann's Cargo Cult Science. The Elephant in the Room is always the root of all problems defined simply too many people occupying too small a space. (Too many people = root problem not consumption as the by-product.)
> 
> Nothing sickens the sailors heart more than sailing through a flotsam of garbage, especially after large storms or disasters purged it from the shores to the sea. This is even more disheartening when thousands of miles from shore in an area we would expect to be free of the effects of man. But, luckily, this is the still the exception and not the rule.
> 
> ...


You are exactly correct and that is a clear-headed and dispassionate. What I find disturbing and more than a little deceptive is the panicked claims of various environmentalists and those who agree with them. For instance:

1975......"scientists say that because of man's interference the world will experience a new, deadly, irreversible ice age by the year 2000 unless we stop using fossil fuels NOW".

2013.....'scientists say that because of man's interference the world will be engulfed by rising sea levels and terrible droughts caused by global warming unless we stop using fossil fuels NOW"

Those who believe the Hollywood tripe and ivory tower hype a la "the day after tomorrow" will lie about what they observe or learn in order to further their agenda....ergo tree hugging propaganda BS.


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## unimacs (Sep 6, 2013)

seafrontiersman said:


> You are exactly correct and that is a clear-headed and dispassionate. What I find disturbing and more than a little deceptive is the panicked claims of various environmentalists and those who agree with them. For instance:
> 
> 1975......"scientists say that because of man's interference the world will experience a new, deadly, irreversible ice age by the year 2000 unless we stop using fossil fuels NOW".
> 
> ...


I wonder if the author of the article mentioned may have gone through part of the "Pacific Garbage Patch". Basically the currents in various parts of the world cause garbage to collect in certain places in the ocean. Some of Tsunami garbage has likely ended up there.

Personally, I'm not much of a chicken little and I think overly dire predictions do more harm than good.

I'm old enough to remember the ice age predictions and there definitely were scientists back in the 70's that felt we were headed towards another ice. They grabbed some headlines in magazines like Time and Newsweek. But even then there were other scientists predicting that the increasing production of CO2 would eventually lead to warming, not cooling. The National Academy of Scientists at the time basically punted saying that we don't know enough about climate to make long term predictions. Today there is a pretty overwhelming consensus there is a warming trend and it will likely continue.

As I said, I'm not a chicken little but neither am I one to stick my head in the sand when it comes to this stuff. I think the warming is real and that it will have consequences both good and bad. It will be really bad for some people and like it is more often than not, it will be the worst for those who don't have the means (or perhaps the sense) to adapt.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I amazes me that some people's initial reaction is the fear that some environmentalist on a forum might get a minute of told ya so. That is small. 

This article is one person, its not a scientific survery but it does make me think that I should read up and learn about what is happening in the Pacific. Most people share a common interest in and rational concern for the preservation of the ocean and sea life. The Tsunami and Fukishima are pretty scary stuff and many boats are reporting these debris.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

"overwhelming consensus there is a warming trend"

And the consensus a few hundred years ago was that the Earth was flat and before that
the Sun revolved around the Earth. Consensus is not science.

For a more balanced approach about AGW go to Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I am curious what others have seen.

I found the PNW very clean. However, there was the odd log floating out there. Pretty scary if you think about what would happen if you hit it. Still, I found it surprisingly clean.

I sailed off the coast of California and found that very clean too - except the ruddy kelp fields... some of which are huge!

In the gulf, I have hardly ever found anything. I have been all over it and have found it very clean. Same for the Keys and Atlantic. The only exception was after Charlie, but that even seemed to disappear relatively quickly. Too bad all the sunken boats didn't, but that is another story.

SO I wonder if some of our environmental laws have really helped this? Nothing wrong with the fishing down here either. Some of the old timers say it was a lot better many years ago, but I also just read in the news about how the price of lobster, shrimp, and other fish has been so depressed due to farming that they are getting record catches but still going broke because they still cannot sell it as cheap as the farmed stuff.

Of course, you cannot farm dolphin or sword, so they may be getting over fished.

Curious what some of our Australian and circumnavigators say about this and what they have seen. Frankly, I haven't seen any problems.

Brian

PS One exception that was mentioned: THe water coming off the Caloosahatchee River has to be the worst I can remember. Due to the rains, it was some of the brownest and nastiest water I have seen. Someone commented about pesticides and fertilizer in the water, and I can definitely see where that could be a problem.


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## seafrontiersman (Mar 2, 2009)

CD: you are right about the fertilizers and pesticide runoff. My somewhat limited understanding is that the prime culprit in South Florida and the Keys where I live is residential lawns.


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## Alive3and3Well (Aug 16, 2010)

As those who sail or support sailing, the bottom line is, we have to do our part to keep the oceans clean and vibrant and alive. We must also support those working to do the same. Whining about the state of the oceans or sticking your head in the sand really does nothing. Humpback whales are again in all seven seas, and making a comeback.(60 Minutes). Efforts are being made everywhere to protect fisheries including reestablishing oyster reefs which help protect the estuarial waters where most fish begin life. Yes, there is still an immense amount of work to be done, so, let's get motivated and do our part to save those seas and waterways we all love and cherish.


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## tdoster (Feb 21, 2012)

Cargo Cult Science by the late Richard Feynmann should be required reading for everyone and it is a fun read. When pressed during the shuttle disaster has he proved the o rings get brittle in cold removed some material from a water glass in front of him and broke it before the committee. 

The problem is people are motivated by emotion, especially fear, and rarely absolute logic. So, I can come out with a product and call it the Magical Cure and hire a lab to do a study and report the results. I am hiring them to prove Magical Cure works, so they are going to account for supporting data and discount unsupportive data regardless of whether it changes the end hypothesis or not.

Al Gore is screaming the world is coming to an end and making millions and living like a king for doing so. Jimmy Carter turned the heat down in the White House and made other personal sacrifices. Which is a better leader?

Currently if a storm forms in the Atlantic, the same type computer models that will predict the path and intensity of that storm are being used to prove that not only is the earth warming, but man is completely responsible for it. If you apply logic to that hypothesis, then you simplify the problem to a proven baseline of too many of any single species without natural population control will deplete resources. Hang on there.... We can't say that. 

You should be able to extrapolate that the author points out a very definable and perceivable problem. But what the politicians are telling us today is to not build a coal fired plant that powers a start up company that manufactures portable sewage treatment plants, or portable plastic recycling plants that shred bottles and tires and turn them into long lasting paved roads to be used in developing countries. They are using an emotional issue to win votes and increase tax revenues as well as achieving personal wealth and gain.

When Al Gore gives up the jet, a few of his mansions and gives his wealth to developing solutions instead of being the poster child for creating the problem he is warning us about, then we'll talk. 

Until then, you want to buy a bottle of Magical Cure? It is proven by independent labs to work Magic.


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## unimacs (Sep 6, 2013)

Captainmeme said:


> "overwhelming consensus there is a warming trend"
> 
> And the consensus a few hundred years ago was that the Earth was flat and before that
> the Sun revolved around the Earth. Consensus is not science.
> ...


It would be a huge waste of time for me to post any information refuting what Andrew Watts has to say because you are determined to believe it no matter what. Am I wrong ?

Ask yourself why that is. Ask yourself why you accept scientific consensus when it tells you that the Earth revolves around the Sun but you won't accept scientific consensus in the case of global warming? Why do you choose to believe a former FOX weatherman instead?

There was never any *scientific* consensus that the earth was flat. Aristotle knew it was round in 330 BC. Contrary to popular myth, most educated Europeans knew it was round at the time of Columbus.

As far as which heavenly body revolves around which, more scientists would have come to the correct conclusion sooner had they not been so heavily influenced and in some cases threatened by the religious powers of the time.

That's not to say that scientists can't be wrong. They certainly can be. But I trust them more than I trust the people who have vested interests in maintaining the status quo.

If you want to know the truth, follow the money. Who stands to lose the most if people started to take global warming seriously and acted accordingly. Surely not some of the anonymous donors to places like the Heartland institute.


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## tdoster (Feb 21, 2012)

Alive3and3Well said:


> As those who sail or support sailing, the bottom line is, we have to do our part to keep the oceans clean and vibrant and alive. We must also support those working to do the same. Whining about the state of the oceans or sticking your head in the sand really does nothing. Humpback whales are again in all seven seas, and making a comeback.(60 Minutes). Efforts are being made everywhere to protect fisheries including reestablishing oyster reefs which help protect the estuarial waters where most fish begin life. Yes, there is still an immense amount of work to be done, so, let's get motivated and do our part to save those seas and waterways we all love and cherish.[/QUOTE
> 
> 100% Correct - I agree. The only way to do anything is to act as individuals and teach other individuals to act in similar ways. Simple things like taking a garbage bag with you in the dingy and cleaning up a little along the way. Picking up after the inconsiderate people next to you on the beach who left it there. Leave a note on the guys boat that never goes anywhere and never has the holding tank pumped - yes, we know who you guys are... That kind of stuff people see and they start to do their part as well.
> 
> ...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Captainmeme said:


> "overwhelming consensus there is a warming trend"
> 
> And the consensus a few hundred years ago was that the Earth was flat and before that
> the Sun revolved around the Earth. Consensus is not science.
> ...


But tripe most certainly is a load of old cobblers.

In 300bc or thereabouts Pythagoras had already calculated that the earth was a sphere and even by the time of Columbus only a few nutbags thought the earth was flat.

Meanwhile in the 16th century the likes of Galileo and Copernicus fought to convince the heliocentric deniers that the Sun was indeed the centre of our solar system and not as the traditionalist continued to claim a system where the earth was at the centre.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

Alive3and3Well said:


> As those who sail or support sailing, the bottom line is, we have to do our part to keep the oceans clean and vibrant and alive.


I was recently in Belize and took a walk on the "beach" in Placencia, and I was shocked to see about 7 million plastic lids covering the beach. Every shape and size, from gallon coffee can lids, to 5 gallon bucket lids to countless water bottle and pop bottle lids. It's incredibly F'ing sad. Call me a tree hugger or whatever you want, but we have got to start taking care of our planet.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Working on the EXXon spill on the Kenai I was amazed at the amount of plastic on the beach. mostly Japanese. that was then and its probably worse now but still covered with oil. Further down the coast I have no doubt we've wiped out the herring by overfishing, destroyed many salmon spawning areas by logging everything and introducing foreign viruses.Even without the spectre of climate change, dead zones are becoming more common, starfish seem to be disappearing and Humbolt squid will consume what's left .You don't have to be Chicken Licken to realize we're hip deep in the effects of our own barnyard crap but it's the bigger stuff that will make life interesting ; while it lasts.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Tenoch said:


> ...we have got to start taking care of our planet.


I am all for this. I am the guy who can't walk past a gum wrapper lying on the floor. I hate litter and refuse to throw anything - ashore or at sea - into anything other than the appropriate bin.

But I am a realist and I know the average citizen is NEVER going to do this. The US and the states have had never ending anti-litter campaigns and penalties for littering since I was a kid. Have they worked? Nope and they never will. You will find a community here and there across the globe where it's hard to find litter. In general the wealthier countries in Europe are much cleaner than poorer non-European countries.

I live on a 2 mile long dead end road that is very rural with few families living along it. It is pastoral and most visitors along our road come to our community because they appreciate its natural beauty and wildness. It's a great place to picnic and swim in the river and camp on the extensive sand and gravel bar and to launch a boat to enjoy the river. And every weekend as the visitors make their exodus they leave the detritus of their visit that they don't leave on the sandbar along the roadside as they make their way back to the main highway.

They do the same thing while on the river. They toss their trash out of the boat into the river to wash into the marshes and the bays.

The average Joe and Jane are lazy and uncaring. Not all...but the average. And half are more lazy and uncaring than the average. Many of them treat the home they live in the same way they treat the planet.

I don't know how you change this. In the US perhaps we could require everyone who's on the dole turn in a hundred pounds of trash a week to receive their benefits. Surely the forty seven million of them could make a dent in it.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

fryewe said:


> In the US perhaps we could require everyone who's on the dole turn in a hundred pounds of trash a week to receive their benefits. Surely the forty seven million of them could make a dent in it.


Ha! Perfect! Then the rich folk, and oil companies can litter all they want and the poor folk have to clean it up!


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

Do any of you dive or snorkel? As a spear-fisherman, I have experienced Bahamian reef life degradation up close and personal over the last nine years. The coral is dying and there are significantly less fish in my favorite areas in both northern and southern Bahamas. Some species that were plentiful nine years ago are now almost completely decimated.

I know this is anecdotal evidence from just one person, but to me it's absolutely real. I am disheartened when I read posts that hold the politically-motivated blathering of Rush Limbaugh and his ilk in higher regard than actual observations of scientists and other people with meaningful experience.

If we are talking about ocean life, you really need to get off your boat and get your face down where the fish live.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Two places come to mind for the mindless dumping by average folks. The road to Nea Bay from Port Angles and any road on the Big Island, Hi. Even SE Asia cleans up litter and recycles .Not all environmental issues are the fault of big oil.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

jwing said:


> Do any of you dive or snorkel? As a spear-fisherman, I have experienced Bahamian reef life degradation up close and personal over the last nine years. The coral is dying and there are significantly less fish in my favorite areas in both northern and southern Bahamas. Some species that were plentiful nine years ago are now almost completely decimated.
> 
> I know this is anecdotal evidence from just one person, but to me it's absolutely real. I am disheartened when I read posts that hold the politically-motivated blathering of Rush Limbaugh and his ilk in higher regard than actual observations of scientists and other people with meaningful experience.
> 
> If we are talking about ocean life, you really need to get off your boat and get your face down where the fish live.


The reefs of Caribbean Costa Rica are almost entirely gone. Anyone can go to Cahuita or Manzanillo and look at them, covered in silt....dead from Banana plantation pesticide run-off.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Tenoch said:


> Ha! Perfect! Then the rich folk, and oil companies can litter all they want and the poor folk have to clean it up!


Good job. You picked out the one tongue-in-cheek throwaway line in my post.

As I said in my post...I don't think this is a correctable problem because human nature will not change. Pass all the laws you want and increase the punishment if you wish. Won't make a difference.

I know you can change some attitudes in some places and perhaps do some good locally. From the 70s to the 90s I watched as the water in San Diego Bay went from abysmal to beautiful. I hope it still is (haven't been there in a few years).

Most of the trash in the ocean and the lifeless regions are not caused by what happens on the ocean but what happens on the land. The debris of life and the chemicals of modern civilization wash into the sea from the rivers and streams that empty into it.


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## tdoster (Feb 21, 2012)

I was walking down the street a few weeks ago and a man in front of me threw a cigarette butt on the ground. I reached down and picked it up, carried it over to a garbage can, made sure it was out and threw it away. He watched that happen and if it happens enough times, he may change his behavior. And he may not, but does not mean I change my behavior because of the bad apples. 

My strongest point is that complaining that the government or someone needs to do something about it is mute. We get regulations from the EPA that take taxes, fees and fines that don't fund what they are supposed to fund. We have people like Al Gore out there making millions off of lecturing on Man Made Global Warming, but has his own jet and multiple homes that are much larger than he needs and has a personal carbon footprint hundreds of times larger than most of the people he is lecturing. 

No one looks at the big picture and Lord knows no one wants to boil things down to the actual problem or even talk about the elephant in the room. No one wants to look at other ramifications or actually mitigate the long-term problems, much less talk about anything unless there is personal near term gain to be had.

It is a losing battle to expect someone else to do something about it, but doing our own part can be contagious and at least thought provoking.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

fryewe said:


> As I said in my post...I don't think this is a correctable problem because human nature will not change. Pass all the laws you want and increase the punishment if you wish. Won't make a difference. .


I remember being in court for a traffic ticket I was fighting (and won) when the Girl ahead of me lost her littering fine. What did she do? She tossed a cigarette butt out the window of her car infront of a cop.

My Late Grandmother lived a mile from the traffic light down the road. Just far enough away that all the people who lit up while stopped would finish and toss the butt.. the first 10 feet of her property was nothing but nasty cigarette butts. They were impossible to get out of the grass.

You are completely right. It has to start at home with you and me. Once we get our "homes" in order.. we can get everyone else in line


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Here on Vancouver Island we sort and recycle nearly all our throw out. Kitchen refuse goes in a separate compost container , plastic separate from paper ,etc Visiting yachties are unfamiliar with the concept and don't read the signs either. Pisses me off! OTOH we haven't solved our sewage issues yet,. so room for improvement on all sides. (reading the other day about Ibuprofen not breaking down in the environment and killing otters in Europe. So think about your connection to stuff with the morning caffeine and squat.I know I do).


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## AKscooter (Jan 18, 2009)

_ What really annoys me is how there is zero accountability for all the folks that make these false proclamations. Seriously? That is an intelligent statement?
_

Actually, what gets me is people who feel that they can go and do anything without regard to their actions in regards to fishing, dumping, etc. Many cod and Atlantic salmon on the east coast??? What about sardines on the west coast? How is the Salmon fishery doing off the Oregon and Washington coast? Oh, how about the halibut fishery in Alaska??? Actions have consequence. What is an acidic ocean to do??? Article aside, there are problems.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Wellguys, I'm going to make the very short leap off the pier of logic. 

The only entity that can weild enough juristiction and leverage to change the equation is the Federal governments of the various countries. Look at your own and try and see who is weakening environmental protection and oppose those who do. 

I/we/you may not like that, but it is the only logical way. Strong Federal protection of our waters, restriction, fines, regulations.

Splash.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

Sal Paradise said:


> I/we/you may not like that, but it is the only logical way. Strong Federal protection of our waters, restriction, fines, regulations.
> 
> Splash.


Yep. Even though I lean far into libertarian territory, I believe that the federal government should be very powerful in protecting our environment. Clearly, the "free market" has failed in this area and really has no way of succeeding. For instance, copper mining/refining is extremely toxic. We all use lots of copper, but how many of us buy copper directly? So how can the consumer have any market power to wield on copper producers? Only through a collective body.


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## tdoster (Feb 21, 2012)

Sal Paradise said:


> Wellguys, I'm going to make the very short leap of the pier of logic.
> 
> I/we/you may not like that, but it is the only logical way. Strong Federal protection of our waters, restriction, fines, regulations.
> 
> Splash.


You can never regulate a solution to a problem. There is a speed limit on the highway and driving down the road today I would say there are more people disregarding the regulation than those who are following the law.

That is not a logical solution as if it were, they could regulate it as far as making it illegal to sail any boat on any waterway and we would still be facing a problem. The problem is more the stuff we consume on land and has very little to do with guys in the stink pot throwing their trash and pumping their head in the water.

If you have ever travelled to a third-world country, you saw piles of trash and poverty. These people have enough problem finding a meal and cleaning up is not top of their list and regulation enforcement only applies to people or companies who can afford to pay the fine, WHICH does not go to cleaning up, but another tax revenue for the government. The only thing that cleans up the land is a big storm, which washes it into the ocean.

The only near term solution to the problem is each of us doing our part to clean up after everyone else.

If you wanted to add another regulation, why not a community service requirement for welfare or unemployment? Even disability when someone is actually able to help their community. Why not more community service requirements for those caught breaking the already thousands of pages of regulations instead of fines that just are just another general fund tax.

If you wanted to solve the problems why not have the EPA actually use the fees and fines it collects to actually clean up the waterways? Why not instead of huge fees to drill in the Gulf of Mexico, they just require that they clean up 3 old wells and platforms before drilling another one?

It is human nature to strive for power and as long as human nature exists, there will be no collective governmental effort to solve this problem, so it is up to you and me, my friend, to do our own part.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

the more power we give our govt the more it is going to hurt us, not help us. folks need to do stuff without freeking govt intervention. get real, folks. doesnt matter what country you are in, big govt is not good..nor does intrusive big govt actually DO anything....


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## tdoster (Feb 21, 2012)

jwing said:


> Yep. Even though I lean far into libertarian territory, I believe that the federal government should be very powerful in protecting our environment. Clearly, the "free market" has failed in this area and really has no way of succeeding. For instance, copper mining/refining is extremely toxic. We all use lots of copper, but how many of us buy copper directly? So how can the consumer have any market power to wield on copper producers? Only through a collective body.


Can you show me where mining of all types is not already highly regulated in the United States?

Oil Drilling?

Production and Refining?

You buy copper directly every single day as it is in the pipes of homes built, the wires in the walls, etc. Ask your plumber or electrician how important copper is to them and you.


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## tdoster (Feb 21, 2012)

Seriously folks. We used to discuss the problem openly when it was possible to be honest and not worry about being politically correct. The problem is overpopulation and there is no answer to it other than what you believe - either God or Mother Nature will sort it out eventually and the earth will heal herself after. Until that point it is up to us as individuals to do our part to extend that as long as possible and not sit back and expect someone else will solve it for us with regulations or political promises.

Her is a good one for you people who think the government will solve it. We had a group decide to go out and just pick up the trash along a stretch of beach. After picking it up, the city would not take the garbage and we had to pay to take it to a dump. They also threatened a ticket for organizing without a permit. That is reality. How do you encourage people to do the right thing when you punish them for it?


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

tdoster said:


> Can you show me where mining of all types is not already highly regulated in the United States?


Can you show me where I implied that it is not regulated in the USA? What I am saying is that regulation of pollution is a good thing, and since pollution does not respect state or national boundaries, the regulation must occur at the federal level.



tdoster said:


> You buy copper directly every single day as it is in the pipes of homes built, the wires in the walls, etc. Ask your plumber or electrician how important copper is to them and you.


That is buying copper _*indirectly*_, which is exactly the point I'm making. Most people don't have the time to figure out where components of things they buy are sourced, and then research how the components are produced. There is simply no way that the free market can control pollution from industries such as copper production. Even if we had perfectly clean production in the USA, direct buyers of copper can source from overseas where regulations may be non-existant or poorly enforced. Since pollution affects the entire world, we should have tariffs that even the playing field for producers that comply to our regulations.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

zeehag said:


> the more power we give our govt the more it is going to hurt us, not help us. folks need to do stuff without freeking govt intervention. get real, folks. doesnt matter what country you are in, big govt is not good..nor does intrusive big govt actually DO anything....


If government has but one function, it should be to defend its citizens. A government does not need to be "big" in order to provide its citizens an effective defense against polluters.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

tdoster said:


> You can never regulate a solution to a problem.


I dare you to sail your boat past Somalia, the world's most perfect non-governmental-regulation utopia.

Do you know how the pirates there got started? The lack of regulation enforcement in the Somalian territorial waters, due to a small, weak (ha!) government, induced huge fishing boats from other countries to come and decimate the local food source. Somalian fisherman started taking matters into their own hands. After that, they used their newly-developed skills and expanded their operation.



tdoster said:


> If you have ever travelled to a third-world country, you saw piles of trash


Another good example of what happens in a regulation-free environment.



tdoster said:


> and poverty. These people have enough problem finding a meal and cleaning up is not top of their list


Good point. That is why wealthy countries like the USA and Canada should be leading the way to caring for the planet.



tdoster said:


> and regulation enforcement only applies to people or companies who can afford to pay the fine, WHICH does not go to cleaning up, but another tax revenue for the government...If you wanted to solve the problems why not have the EPA actually use the fees and fines it collects to actually clean up the waterways.


I may be missing your point. Are you suggesting that the government should be in the business of cleaning up private companies messes and use fines to fund this activity? Wouldn't it be better if people and companies didn't mess things up to begin with?



tdoster said:


> The only thing that cleans up the land is a big storm, which washes it into the ocean.


I've seen that many times - awful.



tdoster said:


> The only near term solution to the problem is each of us doing our part to clean up after everyone else.


I just don't know what to do about cleaning up after that large magnesium chloride plant in Utah - one of the largest point sources of air pollution in the world. But I do live downwind from it, so I get to breathe that crap. So do you.



tdoster said:


> Why not instead of huge fees to drill in the Gulf of Mexico, they just require that they clean up 3 old wells and platforms before drilling another one?


 Because that oil belongs to the people of the USA, including future people. Since the USA is a net exporter of petroleum, oil companies are using up a national resource in return for excessive short-term profits for their shareholders and executives. (There is plenty of profit in the domestic market.)



tdoster said:


> It is human nature to strive for power and as long as human nature exists, there will be no collective governmental effort to solve this problem, so it is up to you and me, my friend, to do our own part.


Yes, we need to do our own parts as individuals, but environmental improvements since the inception of the EPA suggest that your judgement of collective efforts may be erroneous.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Had to throw this up here, frontiersman please don't destroy my drone LOL

actually in today's news

personal underwater drones for sale - cnn 

A new submersible robot -- sort of an underwater drone -- could open up undersea exploration The OpenROV can be controlled remotely with a laptop It's equipped with a video camera to stream back images The device was designed in Silicon Valley and sells for $849


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## unimacs (Sep 6, 2013)

Sal Paradise said:


> Had to throw this up here, frontiersman please don't destroy my drone LOL
> 
> actually in today's news
> 
> ...


That thing is awesome !

If I mount a brush on it can it clean the bottom of a boat?


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## hotdogs (Mar 5, 2008)

tdw said:


> (Mod hat on for the moment .... sad though it may be, if this thread spends too much time in "tree hugging propaganda" mode it will end up in PRWG.)


Having read the whole thread, I observed that several posters either did not take this threat seriously or don't care if you follow through.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

unimacs said:


> That thing is awesome !
> 
> If I mount a brush on it can it clean the bottom of a boat?


I thought the same thing!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

105 acre pond in my backyard- 5y ago lg. mouth, sm. mouth, rainbows and perch. Now pickerel, catfish and a few bluegills- too much fertilizer, three new types of weeds from far way, not enough oxygen as water flow through pond has decreased. Change in ecosystem.
Trips down the coast- more deadheads and plastic crap in the water
Go to the beach- summer or winter - more junk 
Go fishing- Strippers (rockfish) in open waters but little up in the bays where the water has warmed. Just blue fish

Yes - we are soiling our bed. Yes- if as individuals if we confront the litterers we sometimes take our taking out life in our hands.

Still the big polluters are commercial entities- sure continue to try to change folks attitudes but go after the big polluters financially. Follow the money.


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## tdoster (Feb 21, 2012)

jwing said:


> I dare you to sail your boat past Somalia, the world's most perfect non-governmental-regulation utopia.
> 
> Another good example of what happens in a regulation-free environment.


I have. I worked for the big evil oil drilling company when it was half the size it is now and spent a lot of time in fine places like Nigeria, Gabon, Malabo, Azerbaijan, Venezuela, etc. The closest to Somalia was Maldives to Mauritius to Port Elizabeth then up the East Coast of Africa to Dakar then up and across the pond to Halifax on a very slow and big target. Trust me, there are plenty of regulations in these countries that are setup to benefit those in charge and heck with the people. Somalia is a bad example as it is a case of anarchy and I won't go into my opinion of why and how we are partially at fault.

At the macro level of these governments say I am driving over the speed limit with a local in front of me and behind me. I get pulled over and am forced to pay a fine in cash right then and there. Define it however you like, but that is the selective way Regulations work, we are just better at hiding that in the US behind whatever..



jwing said:


> Good point. That is why wealthy countries like the USA and Canada should be leading the way to caring for the planet.


We have been. So, wouldn't you rather be out doing something as an individual and hope that other individuals watch and learn from you then lose every freedom you have because you will need to be regulated when there are only a couple corporations and large government running things when we can no longer trust the individual.



jwing said:


> I may be missing your point. Are you suggesting that the government should be in the business of cleaning up private companies messes and use fines to fund this activity? Wouldn't it be better if people and companies didn't mess things up to begin with?


Well, the EPA requires a fee that is ear marked to cleanup messes. Those "fees" are not used where they are supposed to. Really to clean up the past when there was no regulation and growth came first - as China is going through today.

If the Government is going to collect a fee or tax that was created to provide a specific function, then they should use it for that. The problem with new regulations, taxes, etc. is they rarely stay true to the intent. All things start with good intentions, but almost always end up tainted.

I don't know anything in the Constitution of the United States that says oil belongs to all the people. That sounds like Karl Marx talking. But with all this regulation and tax, it does not belong to the people, it belongs to the Government. If I don't pay my taxes, the Government will take my house and sell it to the highest bidder and keep the profits - not redistribute it to the people.

Right now, we are all profiting. I even have stock and 401K interest in oil and I am not a rich person by any stretch, but if I lost that "profit," I would sure feel it.

Just like the copper analogy, oil goes into a lot more than just running in our cars and every drop is refined into something and everything we do and use is bound to the black magic. The idea that one oil company is profiting off the sweat of the people is ludicrous. How many people are employed, how many other companies are dependent on it, and how many of us are small shareholders...

The best way to innovate new technology is by necessity. Running out creates necessity, not keeping it locked up in the ground.



jwing said:


> Because that oil belongs to the people of the USA, including future people. Since the USA is a net exporter of petroleum, oil companies are using up a national resource in return for excessive short-term profits for their shareholders and executives. (There is plenty of profit in the domestic market.)


I still hold to my beliefs that it is up to us as individuals. It is up to us to raise our kids, not the government. It is up to us to teach them to be individuals and respect the planet and the people who we share it with.

Why are humans so stupid to sit and listen to a leader getting rich talking the talk, but refuses to walk the walk with you.

The best part of being free is we are allowed to talk and debate and change our minds and express our opinions freely. One thing I will never forget is going across Check Point Charlie when I was in high school to visit East Berlin while the USSR still controlled it and we were allowed to go in the early 80's. That was a government FULL of regulation and it was a sad, sad place.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

tdoster said:


> Somalia is a bad example as it is a case of anarchy...


 I maintain that is why Somalia is a good example.



tdoster said:


> So, wouldn't you rather be out doing something as an individual and hope that other individuals watch and learn from you then lose every freedom you have because you will need to be regulated when there are only a couple corporations and large government running things when we can no longer trust the individual.


I think you over-reached a bit here and muddled up your point. Yes, as an individual I have walked my talk. And yes, in an ideal world, others would view me as a brilliant, supremely likable guy and emulate me. But it would not be enough; my sphere of influence is very small.

Now let's consider corporations. By law in the USA, corporations are legally bound to maximize shareholder value. If it is not illegal for a corporation to dump its effluent into the ocean, and if dumping effluent is less costly than treating it and disposing it in a non-toxic manner, then the corporation MUST dump it; that is the law. If we make the dumping illegal, than the corporation can do the right thing and treat the waste properly.

Your other point about our slide into the abyss of corporatocracy is a concern that is beyond this discussion, but I caution you that you may be arguing against yourself.



tdoster said:


> If the Government is going to collect a fee or tax that was created to provide a specific function, then they should use it for that. The problem with new regulations, taxes, etc. is they rarely stay true to the intent. All things start with good intentions, but almost always end up tainted.


OK. So what is the solution? It still sounds to me like you want government to take on the role of janitor and janitor's bill collector (via regulation) while corporations and actual human beings make as much of a mess as they can get away with.

One thing that anti-government ideologues (I consider myself among you) need to understand is that practically nobody wants regulations for the sake of regulating or taking power away from individuals. Regulations are only needed when people by their own free will, infringe on the rights or safety of other people.



tdoster said:


> I don't know anything in the Constitution of the United States that says oil belongs to all the people. That sounds like Karl Marx talking.


Oh c'mon, man - you can do better than that. It's a plain fact that offshore oil deposits are federal property. Plus, the comment has nothing to do with regulating polluters.



tdoster said:


> But with all this regulation and tax, it does not belong to the people, it belongs to the Government. If I don't pay my taxes, the Government will take my house and sell it to the highest bidder and keep the profits - not redistribute it to the people.


Huh? This one is too easy, but it's not on topic; let's move on.



tdoster said:


> That was a government FULL of regulation and it was a sad, sad place.


This thread is about the obvious degradation of the oceans and what can we do about it. Some people opine that the problem is so big that we need international cooperation. Nobody is saying we need to convert our societies to be like Soviet-controlled East Germany in the 1980's.

Thanks for the conversation. Cheers!


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

How is my personal responsibility going to stop a giant trawler from destroying the bottom of the bay and the fish habitat? Realistically?


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## tdoster (Feb 21, 2012)

OK, you are right. I went astray a bit, so let's bring it back a notch.

But first what is the most powerful motivation for people? Emotion, right? If I am a politician, I will try and make you hate the other guy and his policies because anger is the best political motivator. Using Empathy via the anger emotion to invoke a reaction.

Then there is the other side. Using Sympathy. Put a commercial on TV to save the animals or kids with visuals and words designed to pull directly at our heart strings and use sympathy to invoke a reaction.

What does my diatribe have to do with the topic at hand? Simple. The best ways to change are to identify the problem and invoke an emotional reaction. I don't agree with the tactics of Sea Shepard's, but a handful of people identify big problems and invoke public reactions. I admire them for their compassion and dedication and shedding light on the problems. Companies are more likely to react positively to views of the masses then they are regulations. Those views can create regulations, but we have to be careful not to over regulate or more importantly, not lose the spirit of the law as we are defining and redefining the letter of the law.

Killing of Dolphin in making Tuna - Regulation, or emotion and Corporate Response?

If you look at the power a small group can have if they are using both empathy (a logical argument that we can relate to and affects us personally) and sympathy (an argument that makes us feel bad about doing the wrong thing and good about doing the right thing), you will see more examples of little people doing big things as individuals and small groups than actual government regulation sans me giving hundreds of examples that come immediately to mind.

So, my long-winded point is there is great power in the individual and community organizer. Some even say you could go from community organizer to President of the United States, but that would be crazy talk.

And YES, if the EPA is collecting fees that are designed to clean up messes that happened 50 years ago, they should use those funds to do so. OR my point was let Exon clean up 3 old platforms that were put there by XYZ Company that is out of business before allowing them to build 1 of their own instead of paying a fee to the general fund that still does nothing for cleaning up the thousands of abandoned platforms in the GoM. 

The problem as I see it, my friend, is that we are good at creating laws and regulations with good intent. But we are terrible at keeping the Spirit of the Law alive as they continue to add to the Letter of the Law. And many times it hurts the good, while the bad still disregard or find loopholes around it.

You have great points and I truly appreciate your opinion. I don't disagree with you - It is very difficult to solve these problems at the root, so we have to pull the weeds one leaf at a time until the root dies on it's own or we pick at it long enough to get it all. 

So, maybe me picking up a cigarette butt in front of the guy who threw it out won't change the world - but just maybe it will change his attitude and hopefully perpetuate from there...


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## tdoster (Feb 21, 2012)

Sal Paradise said:


> How is my personal responsibility going to stop a giant trawler from destroying the bottom of the bay and the fish habitat? Realistically?


My .02 on that... Video that Trawler and the damage it does. Document it with proof and post it on the internet and pass it to the authorities. Things we couldn't do as individuals 20 years ago we can do today. Take time out of your life to get involved instead of expecting someone else will do it for you. Just about everyone of us walk around with cameras and video recorders 24 hours a day. Put it in focus...

Almost everyone lies at some point in their lives, but no one wants to get caught in one.


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## Tallswede (Jul 18, 2012)

I know the state of Texas has been collecting a fee recently from drillers to clean up old wells. They are currently doing much cleanup of old wells and platforms in Galveston Bay east of the Kemah/Clear Lake area. Local boaters have helped to spearhead these efforts by documenting and locating abandoned sites. Texas has gotten some of the owners of these sites to do the cleanups and old sites where the owners have not been found due to going out of business the fees have paid for the cleanup. More work to be done for sure but it is happening and the state needs the co-operation and effort from locals to identify and report these sites. 

Kevin


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

It seems the drone thing is well underway... from today's NY Times.

oceandronesplumbnewdepths


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## tdoster (Feb 21, 2012)

Between 2005 and 2010, corn farmers increased their use of nitrogen fertilizer by more than one billion pounds. More recent data isn't available from the Agriculture Department, but because of the huge increase in corn planting, even conservative projections by the AP suggest another billion-pound fertilizer increase on corn farms since then.

The secret, dirty cost of Obama's green power push (insert any Presidents Name in place - That is just the title of the article as it really has nothing to do with person or political party and don't want to bring that to the discussion)


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

I think the author is exaggerating...

Slightly.

We have sailed across the North Pacific several times since 1999. Most recently in the summer of 2012. Although even on our first crossing from Vancouver to Kona in 1999 there was debris in the water, there was more each time we crossed. Sailing from San Francisco to Hawaii two months after the tsunami we sighted a fair amount and in 2012 we sailed right through the garbage patch and documented the alarming amount of debris in video and photographs.

As for trawling: It is, of course, a horribly wasteful and destructive practice. Here in Alaska, most processors will not buy trawl-caught fish. The practice should certainly be banned world wide.

I don't think the sea is broken. She is a living thing, wounded, and will heal if allowed to.


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