# Chrysler Buccaneer vs Hobie 16



## PFT (Jun 1, 2010)

I am looking to purchase a used sailboat and from what I’ve seen locally it will likely come down to a decision between a Chrysler Buccaneer (17 footer) versus a Hobie Cat 16. The boat will be used for lake sailing (e.g., Lake Tahoe), and my main goals for the boat are the following:

Fast enough to be fun for my three teens
Stable enough for my 6 y/o to be aboard and not be pitchpoled/captized when 
trying to avoid same 
Easy enough to sail so that after 30 years away from sailing (lasers, Omega 16s) I 
could be up to speed pretty quickly
Easily trailored/put in & out of water with a minivan.

Again, I’m sure there are other boats that might fit these criteria but the two that I’ve come across most often where I live are the Buc and Hobie 16.

Any help would be much appreciated. 

Thanks

PFT


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## jcalvinmarks (Mar 17, 2010)

I've never sailed either of them (although I used to own an O'Day Daysailer, very similar to the Buccaneer), but my thought is that the Buccaneer would be better than the Hobie with a young child on board.

In terms of stability, neither of them is going to be as stable as a a small keelboat, but I would imagine that the Buccaneer would be easier to right if capsized and less likely to capsize in the first place. The Hobie will be faster, but once you get going close hauled and heeling over 15 or 20 degrees, the 5 or 6 mph top speed of the Buccaneer will feel plenty fast. They're both sloop-rigged, so they're both easy enough to sail. And without a fixed keel, they're both easy enough to trailer, launch, and recover, although I feel like the Hobie would be more awkward on the trailer.

For what it's worth ...


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## PFT (Jun 1, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback. It would be great if the Buc at 6 knots and planning provided some excitment - I should not be surprised since the lasers I sailed long ago certainly provided some excitment when the winds kicked up. Certainly something to be said for having a 'sit in' cockpit with a 6 y/o as well.

All the best

Forrest


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## hriehl1 (Aug 8, 2007)

The Hobie is going to be faster, but wetter. Isn't Lake Tahoe pretty cold water? Your season may be a bit longer with the Bucc. Plus four are fine in a Bucc, but probably not the Hobie.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Mountain lake, cold water ... wouldn't especially want to take a 6yr old out on either boat, tell the truth. If Tahoe's winds are as gusty and erratic as most alpine lakes, you *will* be swimming from time to time. I sail a Bucc18 (18 feet, not 17) at 7300' and it's a freaking handful. Friends sail Hobie 14s & 16s, and they dump them frequently. As in turtle. It is not easy to recover a turtled cat. Kids go hypothermic fast. Here's the reality of sailing beach cats on mountain lakes with young children.

Hobie16's a bit faster than the Bucc, but not hugely. Tacking a beach cat takes motivated and moderately athletic crew. Bucc is simple to rig, very few strings to pull, can be kept mostly upright with a reefed main and aggressive hiking. It is NOT a sunset cruiser, unless your winds are far more reliable than ours. It ghosts along on very little wind and begins planing in ~8kts true. Above 15kts, it is very difficult to hold down and takes on plenty water. It won't stuff like the H16 & it's easier to depower. Top speed is NOT "5 or 6 mph" -- it's a planing dinghy exactly as fast as the 470 or Lightning or MC Scow, meaning bursts of 11-12kts (and yes, I can document that.)

As for the Bucc seating 4 or 6 people ... maybe on some gentle Ohio lake with steady evening breezes. Don't expect to seat anyone on the low side in a blow; and despite the invitingly long cockpit, be aware the vang, bridled mainsheet, tall CB trunk, and long tiller make it difficult to get people across during maneuvers. I've said it a dozen times: the Bucc18 is a two-up racer with some limited daysailing potential. For where you are and what you want to do, I'd advise a small keelboat like the Potter19 or Venture17. They are just as easy to trailer, rig, and launch, but they have inherent stability the H16 & Bucc18 lack. And a cabin to stash the tyke for nappy-poos.

Also look into the Mariner19, which straddles the line between dinghy and keelboat better than any craft I've seen. It's a glorious sailer, too. Flying Scot is another possibility -- same giddyup hullform as the Bucc, but it is ~350lbs heavier, 80lbs of that in the ballasted CB. That makes a world of difference in stability, with little difference in speed. Try THIS on a Bucc18 ...










... and you'll be pointing your mast at the bottom.


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

Come visit us at Chrysler Sailors :: Index There are a few buccaneer owners there that can answer any question you might have about one.


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## PFT (Jun 1, 2010)

*Thanks for the feedback*

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Good points about the Sierra lakes being cold - year round for the most part. I'm sure my youngest would not develop a spirit for sailing by being dunked in the water again and again. The O'Day looks pretty good on the video, but I'm not sure how often I'm going to be seeing 20mph winds on the lake we will be sailing the most (Folsom Lake). I've pretty much ruled out the Hobie so will look closer at the Buc and similar boats (the Flying Scots are terrific, but probably too heavy for my Sienna to put in/out of the water, and very hard to find from what I see around SAC0. All the best,

Forrest


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Guys, guys, guys....take your kids out on the boat. Just choose appropriate weather. It's really just that simple. Your 6 year olds will thank you for the experience.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

puddinlegs said:


> Guys, guys, guys....take your kids out on the boat. Just choose appropriate weather. It's really just that simple. Your 6 year olds will thank you for the experience.


But it's not that simple, PL -- not in a mountain environment. Yesterday during dinner I watched our winds go from 6 mph to 45 according to the weather station, in a matter of seconds, with no hint from the sky or NOAA that it was coming. (We had pulled our boat off the lake an hour before, for schedule rather than weather reasons.) You can choose a perfect, cloudless 4kt day to take your kid out and be in survival winds one hour later. Mountain winds in summer are not driven by large, discrete weather systems -- or even necessarily by overt inland storm cells. They are often the result of micro-geography and wicked localized thermal activities. Upslope and downslope air masses can generate winds of 60mph with no rhyme, reason, or ability to forecast. It's a legitimate consideration when selecting a boat.

PFT: Folsom is a little less rowdy than some mountain lakes. Your Sienna could handle a Scot or even a small keeler, no problem. We tow a 21 ft keelboat with its 4cyl ancestor, the Toyota Previa. Cheers & let us know what you choose!


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## tager (Nov 21, 2008)

When I read the thread title I was all hobie. Now that you mention kids though, I am thinking something ballasted would be better. I guess the bucc would be okay if you're careful.


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## PFT (Jun 1, 2010)

Thanks again to everyone for their input. That's interesting to learn how quickly the wind velocity changes in the high Sierras. I had no idea. Folsom defintely has tamer weather, but in the summer the boat will be taken to Lake Tahoe, so the sudden wind change is a consideration.

Good to know that others have been able to haul similar sized boats with a minivan - of course there goes an excuse to buy that old 55 Apache Pick Up, but what the heck.

I'll post something once I've closed the deal on a boat. Thanks again.

Forrest


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

I can't testify about Tahoe from firsthand experience. But secondhand reports and LOTS of time spent around alpine lakes suggests squirrely, sudden gusts will be the rule. Here's a low-res graph of our winds during the past week. Each of these days was like the other, and each seemed a perfectly fine day for a pleasure sail. And each *was* -- with the understanding that on several occasions during any given day, you *will* face gale conditions.










You can take a racing dink or beach cat out on a montaine lake & expect to dump it. That's good fun. Or you can choose a stabler boat with depowering options and ride out the blow. We do some of both. Kids are tough and shouldn't be wrapped in cotton wool. They can handle a capsize on a warm lake and beg to do it again. But they don't fare well in cold water. Which, if you choose a Bucc18 or a Hobie cat, you will be treading now and then.

ETA: Couple of nifty links.

iWindsurf.com - S. Lake Tahoe Current Wind

Tahoe Quarterly - Riding the Wind


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## user (Mar 19, 2010)

Keep in mind that with a 6 yr old you may not be able to right the Hobie. I have never sailed the Bucc so I cannot comment there. I raced H16s for 10+ years though. Righting them takes a bit of technique and a certain amount of weight. In cold water this could get dangerous in a hurry.


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## PFT (Jun 1, 2010)

Those are good points that I'll keep in mind. Something I forgot to ask is what are a handful of the most important questions to ask when purchasing a small daysailer like the Bucc? I suppose what company made the boat would be important (there have been four companies so far that make this boat), condition of sails, hull condition/repairs would be another consideration. Other questions? Make sense to have the seller rig it before making an offer? Anything you can think of that would be a deal breaker? Thanks.

PFT


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## jcalvinmarks (Mar 17, 2010)

From my experience with the DaySailer (again, pretty similar to the Bucc), the points I would emphasize pre-purchase are:

1. Definitely have them show you how to rig the boat. I didn't do that because the previous owner knew less about it than I did (it had been her father's). And even though I was able to get it all sorted out without too much trouble, it would have been much easier if someone had shown me how beforehand.

2. Check the hull for deformations. Particularly where the trailer bunks or rollers meet the hull, a combination of heat, destabilization of the fiberglass with age, and pressure from having the holding strap racheted down too tight for too long can cause deformations in the hull. I noticed this on my DS right about the time the guy I sold it to was driving it away. We had already signed the papers, so there was nothing we could really do about it, and I had never noticed that it affected the sailing of the boat in a big way, and he was getting a good deal anyway, but it gave me that sinking sick feeling in my stomach when I saw it. Even though it wasn't my problem anymore.

3. If it's a buyer's market, be picky about the little things. If there are plenty of similar boats available to choose from, then you can afford to be a little choosy. I noticed little things on the DS before I bought it, and they didn't mean much by themselves, and I was really excited to get the boat and get out on the water, but when I think back, the little things compounded to be a big annoyance, especially on a little boat. (For example: broken horn on a cleat, chipped off sheave on the outhaul block, outhaul line missing, badly frayed hiking straps, badly frayed boom vang, no mast attachment point for boom vang, etc. etc. etc.)


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Would you *pls get it thru your head* that the Bucc18 is NOTHING like the O'day Daysailer? I've sailed on both boats hundreds of times. It's like equating the Classic Moth (Portsmouth 107):










to THIS:










Just because they are the same length don't make them the same boat, okay?

The Daysailer weighs 580lbs and carries 145 sqft of sail, the Bucc is 500lbs and carries 175 sqft on a taller mast, plus that much again in the spinnaker. In five years of trying very hard, we never succeeded in tipping the Daysailer. It is beamy, underpowered, and rates Portsmouth 98.5. The Bucc18 has recently been corrected to Portsmouth 86. That represents a huge difference in performance. NO freaking comparison, trust me.

The Bucc18 has few videos online, but it handicaps the same as the International 470, an Olympic trapeze dinghy that rates Portsmouth 86.3 and goes like this:


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## donlofland (Dec 8, 2008)

A lot of things to consider, but I think you ought to go for a sail on the Hobie and see what you think. In 10-15 knots of wind, they really are a whole 'nother experience. I loved sailing one for years!


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## PFT (Jun 1, 2010)

I found a nice Bucc several weeks ago - a 1978 that looks to be in good shape (well, for a 32 y/o boat). Some dings here and there, missing hatch, and a little cracking in the gel coat but nothing structurally wrong as best I can tell. Came with a trailer making it easy to get it out on the lake right away - which I did. 

Turns out that attention to details in rigging can make a big difference in sailing performance. I had never sailed a boat where the rigging went through a bow pulley: when rigging the boat I did not realize that the roller furling cable was not pulled through the bow pully. That would explain why the cable remained slack when attached to the hyfield lever. Seemed tensioned well enough until we got on the lake. Fortunately the winds were very mild, but it wasn't until we were about ten minutes into the sail that my son said "Dad, this mast doesn't seem right. Feels like it's about to fall apart." After scoffing at the idea, I realized he was absolutely right! Turns out that my teenagers very capably employ all that young muscle when required to act as a human mast support. Looking forward to repairing the mast step (the beating it took caused it to come loose), rigging properly, making some water tight hatches, and getting out on the lake when winds are 10 knots or so. Any suggestions for hatch replacement are welcome - I'm thinking either acrylic covers as I've seen on some websites or a high gloss varnished marine grade plywood with a couple of twisting fasteners.


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## reillyjd (Oct 14, 2006)

Flying Scot, if you can locate one in the area, would be a good boat for the family. Many camps on the east coast use them to teach novice sailors, but yet the boats also provide good (not extreme) sailing for those who know how to push them. Shallow draft, light weight, and easy to maintain. Construction quality is well above the Chrysler Bucc. 

Anyway, glad to see you are looking to help get your kids out on the water, and no matter what boat you pick, you will be ahead of the pack.

Fair winds.


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## jcalvinmarks (Mar 17, 2010)

bobmcgov said:


> Would you *pls get it thru your head* that the Bucc18 is NOTHING like the O'day Daysailer? I've sailed on both boats hundreds of times.
> 
> Just because they are the same length don't make them the same boat, okay?
> 
> The Daysailer weighs 580lbs and carries 145 sqft of sail, the Bucc is 500lbs and carries 175 sqft on a taller mast, plus that much again in the spinnaker. In five years of trying very hard, we never succeeded in tipping the Daysailer. It is beamy, underpowered, and rates Portsmouth 98.5. The Bucc18 has recently been corrected to Portsmouth 86. That represents a huge difference in performance. NO freaking comparison, trust me.


(I'm a little late on this, but I just saw this post from earlier)

I didn't say they were the same. I didn't say they were in the same competitive class from a racing standpoint. The OP wasn't asking about racing. He was asking about a boat to go out and have fun with his kids. He was picking between a cat and an centerboard monohull.

So from a pottering-around cruising standpoint, yes, the Daysailer and the Bucc are fairly similar. Certainly in the same group when you compare either of them to a Hobie 16.

They are in _approximately_ the same weight range
They are _approximately_ similar lengths
They are both fiberglass centerboard day sailors with small enclosed gear cabins
They have similar _but not identical_ sail areas relative to their lengths

How about you get it through your head that not everybody who sails is necessarily into racing?


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## jcalvinmarks (Mar 17, 2010)

And to the OP, congratulations on your new boat! If you can, some pictures of the rigging problems you are having would help.


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## chasb47 (Jul 23, 2010)

*Buc 18 owner*

I know very little about sailing. I just bought a 1975 Buccaneer 18. Had to modify the mast step and do some baler repairs. I hope to get it out on the water (Lake Erie) by this week end.

The jib is a wire luff furling system. This is also the forestay. I guess this is alright. I am thinking about adding a separate forestay. Looking at other boats at the marina to see what they do.

Good luck with yours.


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

Congrats on 2 new Bucc 18s. That class is very active and you'll find tons of
resources on the web.
As to the 2nd owner, I believe you'll find that jib rigging is the flavor of the day.
Now, let's see some pics people!


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## sanityassassin (Sep 7, 2010)

*Get 'Em Both!*

Don't know if this is still an active deal, but I saw the thread and had to respond. I just started sailing last year with a Chrysler Buccaneer 18 and added a Hobie 16 to the fleet this summer. I found both of them on Craigslist, and paid $1200 a piece for them (with trailers). If you do some searching and are possibly willing to drive a few cities over, you can find some pretty good deals on both of these boats. At that price point, a decent boat can be found that may require little to no work (provided you are using them for pleasure and not racing).

I love sailing both of these boats--the experience between the two is very different. In winds of 15+ both of these boats can be a handful solo. With a crew of two they become more manageable. That being said, almost all of my sailing is solo. It took me a while getting used to sailing in higher winds solo but I feel pretty comfortable now. Between the two of them I think that the Bucc is a little easier to sail solo in high winds than the Hobie. With the Bucc you can furl the jib if things get too crazy, and depower the main if any big gusts hit you. The 16 becomes a little bit harder to tack without the jib, and I don't have a furling jib anyway. I was out the other day in 15-20 knot winds when the hurricane came close to us and was flying a hull with the main sheeted pretty far out.

The Hobie 16 is much more sensitive to crew position than the Bucc. Like I said, I am new (and no expert), but I think the Hobie is a bit faster; with all the apparent wind you are making you are sailing close-hauled more often than not. Tacking is much different too--on the Hobie you tack the jib a bit later than the Bucc (helping you to come about without getting stuck in irons).

While the Bucc is a fast boat, I don't think it is as lively as a Hobie. If I want a more relaxing sail, I take the Bucc. Don't get me wrong, it's still a dinghy (and faster than a keelboat), but it is more "mellow" than the Hobie. I like both of these boats, and am learning more about sailing them every day.

-Brian
'82 Hobie 16
'76 Chrysler Buccaneer 18


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

jcalvinmarks said:


> (I'm a little late on this, but I just saw this post from earlier)
> 
> I didn't say they were the same. I didn't say they were in the same competitive class from a racing standpoint. The OP wasn't asking about racing. He was asking about a boat to go out and have fun with his kids. He was picking between a cat and an centerboard monohull.
> 
> ...


Twelve points on the Portsmouth scale tell the story. The Bucc is a powerful boat that heels quickly and will capsize in a gust. The Daysailer is an underpowered design specifically designed to resist capsizing. It has nothing to do with racing. I don't race our Bucc and I have no desire to. My point concerned how likely each respective boat is to end up turtled with a six-year old dogpaddling in a mountain lake. The Bucc18 is not a "pottering around" boat except in regions of reliable wind speeds. Full stop. Since I have sailed both the Bucc18 and the Daysailer over the course of many years in conditions ranging from zero to 35 knots, my opinion that the boats are completely different animals should carry some weight.

PFT (and other new owners): congrats on the Bucc, I hope you enjoy it and it works out for your family. The under-deck Hyfield lever on most of these boats has been replaced by a Magic Box jib tensioner on the mast. This has one unintended consequence on old Chryslers like yours. Those boats had extremely bendy Selden spars. Bringing the jib halyard down to the Magic box increases the forward compression on the mast and may make it hard to keep the mast from bowing when you tension the forestay. There is a main halyard lock at the masthead intended to prevent exactly that sort of forward prebend, tho it can be difficult to use on the water.

North Sails recently put up some racing footage with commentary on rig tuning and sail trim. It's on YouTube. There's also a newer tuning guide from Greg Twombly and Dave Spira, available in PDF form here:

http://web.utk.edu/~pdf/newport/gloucester/BuccTuningGuideV3.pdf

Current thought leans toward a tight outhaul upwind, jib cars on the seat edges, and sailing the boat as flat as possible. That agrees with my experience, tho moving the cars down seriously interferes with daysailing. Cheers, and welcome to the Bucc family! Arrrrgh, and stuff.


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