# Sugestion for a first boat Cruiser and Racer?



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hey all...
I just got into sailing this summer and am loving it.... I"m racing two nights a week with my girlfriend on someones J/36 and we take classes one other night, and I'm trolling this forum extensively... it's a great resource  
I'm on the east coast of Canada, we are both young, and other then a mortgage a fairly disposable income. 

So my question is that I like sailing enough that I want to buy a boat anywheres from 1 year to now, to 3 years from now and I"m wondering what would be a good boat to buy that would be a good boat for club racing as well as limited to medium cruising or if such a thing exists and if I should jump into this boat right away or I should buy a "starter" boat first?

So... should I skip the starter boat? I have people recomending a Tanzer 22 for it's racing prowess and favorable rating, I also see a ton of people on here raving how great Tartans are for cruising... is there a hybrid to be found that would accommodate racing 2 nights a week (competitively) while allowing us to experience some cruising in a safe/reasonable/halfways comfortable manner? 

My budget could be anywheres from 10K (for a starter boat, if I go that route) to 50K for an unbelievable deal that couldn't be passed up... 

I appreciate your comments and suggestions... thanks for the help


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Family member just gave us a new boat.
We have a Dufour 27 up for sale.
good learning boat and starter boat.
Ad posted below.

http://www.boats.com/listing/boat_details.jsp?entityid=105220851
Boat Make: Dufour
Boat Model: 27
Boat Year: 1974


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

For racing and crusiing capabilities I would recommend you focus on C&C and CS models, as both are brnads popular and available in your neighborhood, and IMHO offer the best combination of both. The CSes are a little more pricing but they tend to be more boat...the C&C 25 would make an excellent first boat and you should be able to get a very well-maintained version for under $10K. For $50K you can fit into an excellent C&C 35 Mark II or a CS 33.

Ask around to speak with people who have these boats and see why they are special. Tanzers and Tartans are nice boats, but not that special (except the T30..)


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

C&C and CS between 29-35 feet fall in your budget and are both common enough and seaworthy enough on the east coast to command a range of prices. There are Viking 33s down there that are a tad more racer than cruiser, but built well by Ontario Yachts. 

I think a Tanzer isn't a sea boat and their boxy cabins mean little or no side decks. Hughes made good cruisers that could race and are seaworthy. "Comfort in a seaway" is going to be a factor for you even in coastal Atlantic conditions that it isn't on the Great Lakes, where tall rigs and light hulls predominate that aren't always the best idea for the ocean.

Put in a size range, a price range and your location in yachtworld.com and see what you see, then post your ideas and we can help you more effectively.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well it seem like people seem to think the CS and C&C are the popular choice so far...

I did a quick search on a local site and I came accross this

http://classifieds.atlanticcanadabo...display_db_button=on&db_id=79&query=retrieval

I also found a C&C 30, made in 77 for 35K...

The thought also crossed my mind of waiting till the end of season and then go looking to buy, then I would have the winter to do any fixing/upgrades and hopefully would provide some more leverage on a potential seller.

I have been scouring yachtworld for a couple weeks now... I guess I do need to figure out when/what to buy as well how much I want to spend.... or if I should cool my heels a bit and just enjoy sailing on somone elses boat for another year and pay down the mortgage some...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

This site http://sailquest.com/market/ has a good listing of Canadian built boats typically on the used market. The values listed may not be valid today but its a great way to compare various models and relative values may be helpful.

And, of course, a localized search on Yachtworld.com is always fun.

Second the recommendation for the C&Cs, CSs, Vikings and would add Ontario Yachts (who built the Vikings and others)


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Only problem with these older Canadian cruiser-racers is the bloody balsa-cored decks. They sail superbly, but if the core gets wet and then is subjected to a freeze-thaw cycle, it's delamination city.

Pick yourself a model that at the very least has a fully solid FG hull. Then you'll just be recoring the deck for the rest of your life!

EDIT: I forgot to mention that 1970s Pearsons are pretty nice boats currently going cheaply, too. Being down East, you'll get a greater range of New England classic plastics from which to choose.

Here: I found you a nice 35-footer. Totally representative of a 1970s cruiser-racer: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1601614/0


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'm assuming the greatest protection from the cored deck is a quality survey of such a boat...(in regard to it having issues)

I showed the boat I linked above to the GF and she was prety happy with that price range... would something like that be a reasonable price for such a boat? Would I still probably be looking at 10-20% in upgrades and such? 
http://classifieds.atlanticcanadabo...display_db_button=on&db_id=79&query=retrieval

I'm still kind of torn as I'm new and all to sailing, weather to continue to learn on someone else's boat for another season... not that I can't probably hop on another boat if it beyond my capabilities on a rough night...

Anyone have any thoughts on the "size" of boat to buy as well? jump into a bigger boat that I could plan on having for a couple years or a starter boat I would be flipping in one or two... and obviously I know I don't want to get too over my head for my first boat.

Thanks for all the feedback folks...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Given the apparent upgrades, and especially with the trailer, the price seems about on track. Of course, typically you would expect to get the boat for something less.

That vintage will have a solid glass hull, no coring except in the deck areas, so that worry will be gone. She looks well kept, but of course the survey will be key in making sure she's not just prettied up for sale.

Given the relatively recent sail inventory, I think you may not need to budget a great deal for immediate upgrades (pending survey, of course)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Don Casey says that most people, regardless of how much research they do, will learn a lot about sailing from their first boat, and a from that, learn what is really important to them and buy a second boat based on that. So get a boat that you can learn on, easily handle, and in good enough shape that you could easily re-sell it in a few years, if you realize that you need something different. I'd start in the 25-35' range... since something smaller is probably going to get outgrown more quickly, and something larger can get pretty expensive to store/moor/dock/maintain and repair, especially while you're in the early learning portion of your sailing career.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Considering you have been racing J-Boat's, there are many at least here in the puget sound basin, older J's is J24's, 29 and 30's with in your budget. The 24's easily under 10G with a trailer, and a few 30's for 15-20K depending upon how hard they have been run and stored wet if you will. 29's are fewer and harder to come by. Altho the better sailer tween the 30 and 29 from what I have heard. 

An older C&C would be nice too, I have always liked that brand, if I could afford new today, it would be a 115. If you keep your options open, there are many 25-30' boats from teh 70's into the 80's that are really nice boats. A lot on here do not like Jeanneau's I found an Orig owner 1985 Arcadia 2 yrs ago, very nice boat, reasonably fast etc. Not a J boat by any means, but will keep up with equal time frame sized C&C's etc. 

Good luck with your search

Marty


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

As an ex-Maritimer, exiled to Uppity Canada a quarter century ago - I would suggest you give some serious thought to looking at Ontario boats. They are freshwater boats, hence a 1975 on Lake Ontario is likely to be in better shape than a 1975 that has been in salt water all its life. Had boats down there and up here, and it's a pretty substantial difference. Also - you're going to pay a premium for boats down there, simply because there are fewer boats, hence supply-demand ratio is not as favourable.

I would not recommend the Tanzer/CS/Abbot 22's for the ocean, as they are pretty light and tend to bob around too much when the sea gets up. If you can find a CS 30 in decent condition, you'll be pretty happy with the boat as they are confortable, strongly built, and quite fast (for a cruiser).

C&C 25's are definitely decent boats, probably the smallest that you'd want if you plan to do any kind of cruising at all - even then you're going to need to be careful.

Good Luck !

CS 27's are also an option. They are pretty numerous up here. You can probably pick up a decent one under 20k and then ship it down east, and still save money versus buying it there. Check out this website: http://www.boatforsale.net


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Maybe an older Cal 39


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Wow sailormann... there are a ton of boats listed there, and that is an interesting idea.. The thought of a freshwater boat does have some appeal to it... I also wonder the cost of shipping vs driving up and getting it myself ? I'll have to check into that...


Lots of boats to look at thats for dam sure. Would waiting to the end of the season be worthwhile for increased leverage? Then this winter I could take the courses I would need to skipper the boat and such...

I know today here its a scorcher and I would kill to be on the water...decent amount of wind, sigh... stuck on land though


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

dumbguy,

Since most racing is handicapped you could race in almost any boat but it would be fun to finish before dark.

For cruising you want a boat you can stand up in and I don't know how tall you are.

We have had very good luck with C&C's. If your 6' or under a 30' will get by. I did not read every post but I have seen the 30' go for $10,000 US$.

I would shop around for a good priced C&C 35 mark 1. Thats a comfortable boat for 6'2" headroom and they sail well in most conditions. Don't get a small boat. Your only going to sell it.

http://www.sailingmagazine.net/UBN_0202.html

To add that we just had our C&C 35-1 surveyed for insurance purposes. The surveyor and many old water rats here sailed on 35-1's. This surveyor mentioned that he finished third in class in the Bermuda race in a C&C 35 Mark 1 named Bantam. Later a buddy owned that boat and I sailed against it.

The surveyor had emotion in his voice when he talked about how these old Mark 1's sail (and win). I understand.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Height isn't going to really be an issue.. I'm only 5-7/5-8 and my gf is pushing 5 feet on a good day so yea... one of the few times it's good to be average height!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Your fortunate. I would think that your lower center of gravity is a plus. 

Are there any C&C 35 Mark 1's sailing in your fleet? Check that boat out.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Another Idea*

I have a Pearson 10M (33 ft) It is considered a cruiser/racer and is well built. It is fast for it's size. 7+ knots for a hull speed, yet pretty roomy below. Can be singlehanded easily.

Just another idea.

DrB


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I gotta say guys... I talked to some people last night at the Monday race... and I had a couple people suggest the States as the place to buy due to the increased competition and I went looking... and dam... C&C 30's going for 20K with 32,33, 35's going for 30... it's really tempting me...

Anyone go through this process recently? I guess I should contact a transport firm somwheres down there to see what it would run me and such but I am amazed at the difference... and with our dollar only being 6 cents off yours... it's very very tempting. 

I have emailed about 10 or so owners with questions and such, as I start to find some boats that look good to me I'll be sure to post them up here for your review...

PS I asked two people last night what size to buy, got two completely different answers lol.... go figure right?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The US is the cheapest place to buy - that's for sure. Cheaper than Ontario. Be careful with the really cheap boats though 'cause it's going to cost you more to fix one up than it would to buy one in decent condition. Good Luck !


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

What do people think of this for a boat? 
http://www.yachtbroker.com/index.php?section=search&boatId=1288860&photo_index=0&maximize=17862635

Seems like unless there was something hidden it would almost be ready to put into the water, and I guess the seller lacking the time to enjoy the boat....

One other thing? What do people think of me employing the services of a broker to help with the paperwork and arrangement of the transport and everything? In theory he says he gets payment from splitting the commission with the other broker? Any thoughts?


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

We have had a Niagara 26 since fall 2000. We stayed weekends aboard with 2 adults and 2 younger children for 4 years. Is a good boat for limited coastal cruising and for racing on a budget. Similar interior size to C&C25/26. If you get a larger boat the costs of all gear goes up as well. Boats going cheap may need new sails, etc... so check that out and add to your expected costs esp if racing.

Now to the dig. I am located in Tatamagouche, NS and recently raced my boat from Shediac, NS to Summerside and then took boat back to NS. 150NM in 3 days. Boat is currently for sale and is known by the commodore and a few others at Summerside Yacht club. oat is Full Tilt 2 and is a Niagara 26. details can be viewed at http://users.eastlink.ca/~mhoyt Ask greg Bowles about the boat or perhaps Don Vaniderstine (he has not been aboard but knows the model) or Blair Campbell (same).

If you are interested in racing and in cruising you are looking at a cross between performance and accomodation. Age of inventory, gear that comes with boat, etc.. are important and you should not buy an old boat with old sails if you expect to race unless you plan to purchase new sails equipment.

Sorry for the sales pitch but we have found the Niagara perfect for getting into both cruising and racing without breaking the bank. I see you are in Summerside so thought I would plant the bug

Have fun looking. Looking is the best part until you actually go sailing

PS. would that be Richard Wedge's boat Cajun Spirit that you race on? Great boats.

Mike


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## davideureka (Jul 19, 2007)

i have a o-day 25 doing some races here it fun we stay on the boat we can stand up right they give me a good handy cap


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## sanctuarysam (Sep 16, 2006)

dumbguy said:


> What do people think of this for a boat?
> http://www.yachtbroker.com/index.php?section=search&boatId=1288860&photo_index=0&maximize=17862635
> 
> Seems like unless there was something hidden it would almost be ready to put into the water, and I guess the seller lacking the time to enjoy the boat....
> ...


i actually looked at this boat when i was shopping. if i recall correctly she is in pretty decent shape with a great sail inventory. what steered me away (so to speak) was the tiller and cockpit traveller. .. last time i saw her she was on the hard and seemed to be missing (thankfully) some of the squishy places on deck some of her counterparts were sporting...the broker i used was Tred-Avon, and the guy i worked w/ is Barry Starke..nice folks all around there


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

That custom 33 is a very nice looking race boat. The traveller is where a traveller should be for racing. The tiller over wheel steering will be tiring so it looks like a decent size crew of at least 5 will be needed to race this boat properly. probably 6-7 be better. If you have that it looks like quite a nice boat. I myself would love to have it!

Mike

Full Tilt 2


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

dumbguy said:


> What do people think of this for a boat?
> http://www.yachtbroker.com/index.php?section=search&boatId=1288860&photo_index=0&maximize=17862635
> 
> Seems like unless there was something hidden it would almost be ready to put into the water,


Looks like a terrific boat. It appears to be ready-to-go. As far as the possibliity of "something hidden,": That's what a good surveyor is for. But here's something you should consider when looking at used boats: The average going price. I don't know this line, but $30k seems to me to be at the high end of 33' boats that are 31 years old. That's not to say it's not worth it. Certainly the current owner has fitted her out with top-notch gear all around, and it looks like lots of upgrades and maintenence, as well. Problem is: Unless a buyer really appreciates and wants some of those upgrades, they add little or nothing to the boat's value. There's a 27' Catalina in my area, my wife and I looked at, that's in the same boat, so to say: Current owner has done a terrific job of refitting her, and added some really nice upgrades. So he's trying to get (some of) his investment back out of her. As a result he's got her priced well higher than the market will generally bear for that boat of that age. Is she worth it? To us she would have been, had we not decided we wanted a bigger boat. But consider this: She's still for sale, and we looked at her a month and a half ago. Unless you intend to take the boat with you to your grave, perhaps something to consider.

Jim


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## sanctuarysam (Sep 16, 2006)

mikehoyt said:


> That custom 33 is a very nice looking race boat. The traveller is where a traveller should be for racing. The tiller over wheel steering will be tiring so it looks like a decent size crew of at least 5 will be needed to race this boat properly. probably 6-7 be better. If you have that it looks like quite a nice boat. I myself would love to have it!
> 
> Mike
> 
> Full Tilt 2


mike,
i always caution folks that have cruising aspirations to consider shin banging travellers and "excuse me, can you move while i tack/gybe" cockpits.
from a race/go fast perspective this would be a fun boat to have, however, i think something more "cruiser friendly" might be a better option from what i've gleaned from his original post. i think this boat might be a little spartan down below..then again, it depends what or how they plan to use it..


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

Yep - thats racing.

We have a traveller across the cockpit. Thought originally might be a problem. Not the case. Makes the boat far easier to handle short handed as all the mainsheet controls are easily accessed. Traveller and sheet near each other. Have banged shins exactly twice in 6 years. Better yet - when having "passengers" aboard it keeps them out of the way of the helmsman and sometimes helmsman/main trimmer. For any not aware a "passenger" is that person that sits on a sailboat and gets in the way. Nice if you are running a tour boat for the day but a real pain when racing. Sriously though - the traveller nicely divides the space between main and genoa/jib trimmers.

A traveller on the coachroof? Is more for cruising. Is placed out of teh way at teh expense of functionality. If you are racing you want the boat to go as fast as possible given the conditions at the time. The 33 listed above is a race boat that has been well maintained. Not much use for cruising unless you cruise with a crew that gets off at destinations to stay in a hotel.

This post said a "boat for cruising and racing". That means either a race oriented boat that can cruise or a cruise oriented boat that can race. He sailed on a J36 - that is no slouch and may set some expectations. A slow cruising boat with old sails cannot be raced. Any boat is rated under any handicap system based on a boat in RACE CONDITION. this assumes new sails, fast bottom, etc.... as we all know. If the boat is to be raced as well as cruised don't look at anything with old inventory or a shortage of gear .... UNLESS you want to spend a LOT of money.

$29K in Canada is not a overpriced 33' race boat IF the inventory is new. Of course with the US $ tanking that opens up a vast new market taht is no longer looked at with 66 cent dollars.

Stay away from old boats from southern climes because they are more prone to osmosis. UNLESS you have a very good survey done. Stay away from Northern clime boats where water intrusion can freeze and then cause cracks in decks, etc... UNLESS a very good survey is done.

Just find a boat you like and buy it. Most problems can be easily fixed with a bucket full of money. What can not be fixed is a layout you are not happy with or a boat that does not sail to expectations. Also be aware that in boats the Peter Principle also exists (different name). Is easy to simgle hand smaller boats. Is easy for two people to white sail race a smaller boat. As the boat gets larger and more race oriented it requires a dedicated crew. If it is larger and designed to be short handed typically it requires gear that is designed for easier use rather than speed. Roller furling mains, and even roller furling jibs can be a lot slower than a race oriented and cut sail for the same boat - but require less crew. You do not get handicap credits for undercut sails designed for cruising to the same extent they affect performance. So - are yo u cruising and occasionally racing or racing and occassionally cruising? Is important in your decisions. If you have 6 regular crew already lined up and want too race mostly and cruise some the 33 you mentioned would be great. So would a J105 or other newer boat but $$$

I am rambling - but these are all things to be considered. If you want to race and buy a slow boat you will get discouraged and quit racing. If you want to cruise and buy a cramped boat or a boat that requires a lot of crew you will have the boat for sale in a short time. Buy the boat that fits the need first. budget second. There are tons of boats around used and as you are in Canada you now have the entire US to search where boats are typically priced lower.

Have fun. Looking is the best part.

Also - if you want to race the wise way is to crew on a race boat and have fun on your boat.

Regards

Mike

Halifax, Nova Scotia


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

First off... thanks for all the input guys... very interesting reads...

I do anticipate having 3-4 people crewing to race with, potentially getting up to the 5-6 on busy nights, but then there might be nights were I would have 2, and heh, I might just jump on another boat? Who knows


Yea... I'm a competitive person and I guess when I looked at something like this I think... hummmm might be nice to be able to eventually play with the big boys... and yea. sailing on the J36(Cajun Spirt btw , great people to sail with, some of the nicest people I have ever met) has kind of spoiled me on finishing earlier rather then later... I know I wouldn't be setting any records or winning much (for awhile right  ) but I wouldn't be the last man out... which might make finding crew easier, and as well if we were competitive keeping them. 

All good points... a ton of things to consider... I'm getting a quote on shipping and such just to get an idea what that would run me, I'll let you all know, by no means have I made up my mind.... 

Oh and I could see on a boat like that, if the cruising was more in demand, putting back in a vberth to keep the woman happy, and maybe a fridge at some point....

I know I want it all, the fast competitive cruiser that isn't out all night, and somthing that would be halfways comfortable... though I'm not that picky, and atm there are just the 2 of us... neither of which is overerly tall or large... 

But seriously I appreciate the feedback, I will be pooring over all these posts a fair bit. Anyone have any comments on the broker?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Re: The Boat

Based on the pics and the write up - I think it's probably a good buy if it's in good shape, but I'm in Canada and I know that our idea of a fair price is higher than the US. That said, there is a maxim that says "you can never pay too much for a good boat, or too little for a poor one".

One thing that you need to be careful of with this boat is the hull. I believe it is cored, hence if there is water in there it may be rotting the core. Fixing this will cost you at least as much as the boat, probably more in the Maritimes.

Check out this website for more information on C&C boats:

http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/

Regarding the performance of the boat... This is not something that sails like a J Boat, or an Express or even a CS or a lot of other newer boats. The PHRF listed in the write up is 162, which would put it into the "sprightly cruiser" category rather than the "competitive club racer" group. You may do well under handicapping rules if you sail the boat nicely, but you're still going to be looking at a lot of transoms.

As far as using a broker to represent you goes. There are pros and cons to it. The listing broker will have to split his commission with your broker, so instead of making 2500 on the deal, he's looking at 1250. This may not be enough money to ensure that he spends much time dealing with the sale.

Personally, I would put my effort into locating a very thorough, independent surveyor and base my decision primarily on his recommendation. Surveyors are almost always more knowledgeable and definitely far more objective than any broker.

There is also some incentive for your broker to push you into buying the boat, simply because it is the easiest thing for him to do, and he also is not earning a very substantial commission on the sale. Certainly, he is going to be a little hesitant about incurring large long-distance telephone bills on your behalf.

All in all - if the boat is as advertised, it's probably a good deal, as all the stuff that needs replacing on an older boat has been taken care of. But the two caveats that occur to me are the cored hull and the PHRF rating, as it seems that you're interested in racing.

I wouldn't stop looking at other options... If you do decide to purchase from the states - PM me and I'll let you know how to import it properly.


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

Dumbguy - Do you have a name that doesn't sound like an insult when we address you?

Some interesting numbers. C&C33 standard boat - MK1. 156 in Chesepeake. Myah is an example of this boat - it rates 150 in your area. The 33 you are looking at looks more like a race boat than Myah which is a nice boat to cruise or race - but it is slower at 162 in same rating association. What's with that?

A crew size of 4. Not enough for the boat you listed except possibly in short evening races esp if White sail - then more than adequate. If you aspire to racing NSTYA races such as Shediac - Summerside, Shediac - Charlottetown, etc... you will need probably 6 crew and maybe more. Keep in mind that most of your sailing friends will be committeed to other boats for that race. Custom designed race boats - Double Time looks like one typically have running backstays - which the production 33 (mark 1 anyway like Myah) do not have. You typically need an extra crew member just to man the runners. The list does go on. Adding weight to vee berth and galley as you have mentioned will furthe slow down this boat - not great for a "competitive guy" as you will have a tough time sailing to this rating.

From your very first post where you stated 2 days racing and also cruising I think you may be on the wrong track with this boat. Make no mistake - this boat that "sleeps 4" is a Race boat and not a cruising boat. Since you also state you are looking for your FIRST boat you may wish to get something a little more standard and forgiving to learn the ropes and to learn what it will actually be used for.

You are sailing on Richard's boat - ask him his opinions and for advice. He will be a big help. Also ask people like Greg or Dawna on Myah, Don Vaniderstine your fleet captain (who went thru a similar exercise a year ago), Blair Campbell or other people at your yacht club. Remember that if you ask a cruiser they will steer you toward cruising boats and if you as an avid racer you will be steered toward performance boats.

Isn't there a C&C 25 for sail in your area? I believe is for sale by Austin Scales and is caleld Safari. Probably in charlottetown. Can be viewed at www.nstya.com on boats for sale. The 25 at 13,500 canadian and NO transport or duty costs or headaches represents a modest investment, sails well in the waters of Northumberland Strait and wins races. It is at the fast end of C class when racing. Has two cabins and private head area. Our friends and slipmates for many years just sold their 25 for the same price. They stayed aboard (just two of them) most weekends for past 6 years. A great boat, wins races, nice interior and when you are ready to move up you can't have a loss larger than 13,500. Modest investment and you can easily drive to see it since I think it is also on the island.

I have to say this again. Get a learner boat not a 30+ foot racer. You are still taking sailing lessons and it will be very hard to learn on a 33 foot custom race boat. Once you learn for one or two years on a smaller boat you can then know better what your more ideal boat is - if you were going for a C&C33 though - I would get a production mark I or mark II.

Enough for now - is an interesting topic though

Mike


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Moving from one boat to another can give you some valuable learning experiences usually at tremendous cost. 

If you are seriously thinking about crusing perhaps you need to not think in terms of the first boat but the best boat and do more research boatless and look for the best boat and then take on all the work of fitting it out precisely to your own needs.

Most yachtsmen do enormous amount of work on their boats and the same hulls owned by two sailors turn out to be very different. This is not like buying an Audi A4 where there may be 10 - 15 versions and extra packages and that's it.

I think you can learn a lot more for someone getting your butt on as many cruising boats as you can and see what works on them (for you), find out why and how they did what they did, what they like and don't like and so on and then assimilate this all and look for the hull/boat you want and know that you will have to do lots to make it just right.

Can you find a great yacht all tricked out for your needs? Perhaps. There are a lot of yatchsmen who have been working on their boats for years and may bhe retiring and selling. If it has what works for you and you can afford it, you might be a ahead of the game.

However, I have spent 2 decades working on my own boat and I have done all the work myself so I know every system inside and out and that is ultiamtely a good thing when you are out there and need to service some system. Things break and need repair and if you haven'[t worked on that system you are at a real loss. Imagine what would happen if you were on a strange boat and something broke. How secure are you that you could trouble shoot and repair it? What about the tols and spares and so on?

There is a very good reason why yatchmen do their own boats usually. That is because being at sea there are no handy service centers you can pull up to for repair and service. It's all up to you and so you need to be prepared. And that preparation comes from having a deep understanding of every system and component on the boat because you probably installed it, repaired it or have previously maintained and serviced it.

There is a lot of good information available because of the internent. But you need to get out and do the touchy feely thing with some boats. That may be harder than actually reading about them. You need to do both... read and have hands on experiences.

The approach of starting small has some merit as the financial risk is lower and the scale of the work is small and you can build confidence and experience over time. But it can be wasteful of time and more expensive in the end. It may be the only way to go depending on your resources.

I know that I could never have bought the boat and done ALL the work I did in a year of two.. not physically and certainly not financially. You can assume that it will take a minimim of 5 or 6 years to take a basic sound boat in good shape and turn it into a off shore cruiser... adding gear and experience as you go. After this period you will know your boat and it will be suited for serious cruising. And you will be confident and enjoy the experience.

jef
sv shiva


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Again all good points...

I am fairly mechanically inclined and have never shied away from getting my hands dirty in life, and practically I plan on doing all the work I can do myself, with lots of questions around the marina and the internet though...

Oh and as far for sailing friends... I'm brand new to the club... I really didn't know anyone there so I'm hopefully going to have a whole group of untapped people to sail with as none of my friends sail, I know this means some growing pains... but in theory that means untapped crew to mold (and learn as I learn  )

I actually work with Don V so I have been picking his brain a fair bit as well as my skipper Richard.... as well anyone else who will listen

Those thoughts on a broker kind of echo what I figure... they will be slightly pushy to have you buy any boat to get their commission and then move to the next customer... but I didn't' let my real estate agent push me, and I wont be letting a broker  

I was going to have a look at that C&C 25, and I probably still will, if you look back at my earlier posts I have it linked. I guess some of my thoughts would be that, honestly, Atlantic Canadians are paying a preium for boats around here. Now if all things are equal that 13.5 K for that 1971 C&C 25, I could spent 10 K more and have a similar vintage C&C 35 from the states on my doorstep (well the marina) where a similar boat around here would be 50K and up !

I honestly do like the thought of buying a smaller boat, and where I was headed earler... but then for the equivalent money I starting looking south, and you can get alot more, for alot less and what it comes down to, really, am I better off buying a boat now that I would be happy with for a couple years, or buy a smaller boat and probably be looking to flip it within 2 seasons as I outgrow it....


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

The very first post stated ...
"good boat for club racing as well as limited to medium cruising "

Just remember that you get what you pay for. A local boat that you can easily find the history of from local sources and view and sail on prior to buying can turn out to be cheaper in the end. A full prepurchase survey is a necessity of buying a boat at a distance. The bigger the boat the bigger the risk. A C&C 25 at our club just sold at 13,900 to the first people who looked. Why? Well because over 6 years they spent the money to make the boat what a C&C25 should be. Kevlar #1 2003 (saved the new owners $2500), dacron loose foot 2+2 main 2003 (saved another 1800), spinnaker gear and pole added 2004 (another bundle), kevlar #2 2006 used 4 hrs (another 2000), blade dacron (approx 1400), new chartplotter with chip of all charts for area 2005 & ST60 tridata 2006 (nice to have), replaced old engine with 2006 15hp (another 2500), painted hull with Awlgrip 2005 (2500) ... so basically all the defects of an older boat had been taken care of. These are the defects that the new owner always runs into. 25 year old sails are ok to cruise with to a degree but are just that - crap. Boat will heel excessively, point poorly and generally sail far less well and be far more overpowered than it should. Buy something from a distance and you are adding shipping, your travel time/money to view and a lack of local knowledge about the vessel from other sailors and owners. A C&C25 at 13500 CDN in your home port is about the same cost as a 9500 vessel that has to be shipped across the border. The piece of mind is also good with local knowledge of local boats.

In my searches for the "next" boat I have found out more about the local boats for sale around here from my contacts that know the boats that you will likely learn from any surveyor. For instance one boat asking 8500 has original motor, sails, no instruments and needs rudder work among other things. So what if it was awlgripped 3 years ago - that was insurance job because of a hurricane. Asking 8500 yes, but has been on the market 2 years and is probably worth 4000 because it will cost at least 6000 immediately to make this vessel equal to the well maintained sisterships in its fleet. Never underestimate the value of a recent inventory. Contrary to what some seem to believe you have stated you want to race this boat as well as cruise it and you have said you are competitive. Friends bought this 25 at the same time we bought our boat. First race we won and they came last. After that they tried to make the boat better continuously. He had to add backstay adjuster ($), boom vang ($), outhaul ($) , traveller ($) just to start. Then after two years using 30 year old sails he bought the #1 ($) and the main ($) and started winning more regularly. Then he wanted to race out of cruising class and had to buy a spinnaker and pole ($). On top of all this was the usual maintenance and normal upgrades that every boat owner goes thru. That boat was a steal at 13900. I have had at least three people tell me that if they had known it was for sale they would have bought it in a minute.

Contrast this to some people I know that buy a boat that has been recently upgraded. There is an S2 7.9 for sale in NS that has 2003 Yanmar, inventory upgraded 2002/2003 and instruments. this tells me the owner at that time cared about the boat and spent money to make it perform well. The next owner found this boat and spent $0.00 on sails, instruments and engine and still managed to sell the boat for a good price a couple of years later. Make an offer on the C&C 25 - you can probably beat the price down and it is a great boat. It has all recent sails & instruments and has a highway trailer which adds flexibility and about 1500 to its value. The paint job is likely due to Hurricane Juan so be careful when checking out the boat for any structural damage. The 33 is a dreamers boat and not even fast compared to the 33 mark 1 & 2.

I think the main thing to remember is that you know very little now compared to what you will know after a year or two of owning a boat. How can you even decide what your ideal boat is? Buy a well equipped boat that you can use for a year or two that needs little upgrading and then decide. My parents bought a C&C36 in 1981. My dad wanted that one because he could stand in it (6'3") and because he could do the Marblehead - Halifax race. He never raced it and never took it outside of NS. In the end it was too big for a husband and wife and too much investment to keep if not being used a lot - so after 9 years he sold it. Previously he had a Spirit 28 that cost about 40% as much and did everything he required. He should have kept the Spirit. When he bought the 36 he had thought a Whitby 42 would be ideal boat but was too nuch $$ for right now. Later he chartered one and realized that the lack of performance would have made it a horrible choice for him even though my parents were cruisers not racers.

My friends that had the 25? They sold it because they have a new C&C coming. They are now getting their dream boat. Do they regreat anything about the 25? No - was a fantastic boat and they loved every minute on it. They cruised and raced it from Tatamagouche, NS to Pictou to Montague PEI, Charlotettown, Victoria Harbour, Summerside and Pugwash among other places. Is a great boat for the Strait and cheap.

yes I am still learning how to sail my boat and other things about the boat after six years. I know what projects I have done and what needs to be done still. I like the cross between interior and performance and the lower costs than a 30, 33 or 40 foot boat. Have never had footitis because it always ends up in more boat than you can afford or handle or simply too much investment to have if not used a lot. Be realistic in your needs and buy accordingly. Buying over internet may be cheap but I have seen a lot of people burned by getting boats they are not familiar with condition unknown. OTOH if you said you wanted a C&C25 and found one for $3000 and paid to ship it to Summerside it might just be worth it. Maybe if it was one of those rare deals of a good boat in great condition. Otherwise it could be a wreck with serious flaws and in need of a lot of $$$$

Have fun - looking is the best part

Mike

PS. At your height you have full standing headroom in a C&C 25 or larger and in just about all Tanzer 26, Niagara 26 etc....


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## Valdensule (Mar 2, 2007)

*Someone??*

I would keep an eye on your girlfriend.................


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Valdensule said:


> I would keep an eye on your girlfriend.................


LOL, why is that, good boat chicks are hard to find are they?

I made an apt this morning to see the boat in Charlottetown which is 45 min away... which is always something I planned on doing anyways...

The thought of buying something smaller would give me allot more forgiveness to learn with and make mistakes in, I just don't want to be stuck with a boat that wont sell in 2-3 years...

Also word was last night that a new owner of a C&C 27 isn't to happy with the sailing experience so who knows what is available there... though methinks he would want too much for it at around 28K.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

If you want to day sail get an echelles or something similar. There is a world of difference between a 25 cruiser and a 37' one. If you intend to live aboard for even a weekend you need to consider a boat which has stowage.

And forget about "mistakes" and smaller vessels being more forgiving. If you spend more time thinking and planning before doing you will avoid 99% of the mistakes.

You can also learn to sail larger boats with sailing schools like Offshore and and offer yourself as crew at some yacht club. If your boat is to be moored or docked 10 minutes from your home that also changes the equation. We keep ours 100 miles away so day sails make no sense. Ours is a comfortable living environment.

Whatever size boat you get you need to be able to handle it yourself. If you are forced to rely on crew you are not free to use your own boat. Learn to be self sufficient. That's what the cruising "lifestyle" is about to a large extent. Club racing is similar to nascar. Don't be fooled into thinking it is similar to cruising because some of the boats are the same.

jef
sv shiva


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'm going to chime in again here with an echo to MikeHoyt's post. You should really get the smallest boat that will do what you need and, once you have found a few designs that you like, buy the newest, best-equipped one of that group that you can afford.

If you have never owned a boat before, I think you're going to get a bit of a shock when you find out how much time and money it takes to maintain it properly. A 30 foot boat takes twice as much time to maintain as a 25 foot boat. A 35 footer takes one and a half times as much as a 30 footer.

There is also the $ aspect. I will 99.9% guarantee you that you will be selling whatever you buy now in two or three years. The general rule of thumb is that if you maintain your (used) boat, you'll be able to sell her for close to what you paid for her. If you upgrade it substantially, you'll get a little bit more for it, but you won't come near recouping what you have invested.

Check out the write-up on the C&C 33 that you were looking at. I believe that the blurb says the owner has invested close to 100K in the last few years, and reading the list of new gear - it's possible. He's selling the boat for 30K - 70K is a lot of money to wave goodbye to. The reason he is selling it for 30K is that there is (generally) a finite amount that a boat of a given year can command, and nobody is going to pay him any more for a slower, 30 year old racing boat, regardless of how great the gear is, because it can't race that well anymore, and as far as cruising boats go, it's nobody's first choice..

Look at it from another angle. Let's say he's owned for 5 years - he probably paid close to 30K for it, thinking he could refit her and race for a further investment of 15 or 20K. Damn if he didn't get a big shock huh ??  And now he can't even get 30 out of her.

Better that when you decide to sell, you are selling because you've learnt how to sail and need more speed and room, rather than because you've realised that you're going to have to spend two or three times your purchase price just to get back what you paid.

When you are looking at Yachtworld, or the other websites, and you see that the general price range for a decent 30 foot boat that doesn't need a lot of work is 40 to 60K, don't assume that the person who has listed a 30 footer for 15K is an idiot with no sense of the value of his boat. The boats are invariably listed for more than they are worth.

What you are seeing is a boat that is in less than decent condition, that is still for sale because folks have realised that getting her up to snuff is going to cost way more than it would to buy something in decent shape.

Unless you are going to live on it for extended periods, bigger is a waste of money. At the very least, before you buy anything, call a sail loft and get them to quote you on new sails for a C&C 25. Then ask for a quote on sails for a C&C 33.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

dumbguy,

That C&C 33 is a nice looking boat. It has a diesel which raises its value. Of all the C&C's of that era the 33 may have been the best looking. Its the 35 thats famous however.

I can easily single hand my 35 and with a genny I have passed a J36 on a reach.

Of course the J36 is faster if you fly a chute but otherwise there is nothing like a big genny, well at least to me.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Dumbguy,
The '70s C&C 33 is a great boat, I have a friend who has owned on for 25 years - his boat looks as new and has required no particular repairs other than the usual wear-and-tear: some parts on the A4, window rebeds, sails - that's it. A very nice and tough boat that I highly recommend.

The boat you linked is a flat-out race boat, not a racer/cruiser. You want a race boat, go for it. But that is not what you said in your post. You would be way better off to look around in your own neigboorhood at local standard C&C 33s, a nice racer/cruiser. The 3/4 tonner in the pics will only be marginally faster than the standard boat, if any, I am surprised the ad quotes a rating of 162, it looks like the standard C&C 33 rates 156 in Chesepeak bay - what gives. Let me point out the downside of owning one-off like this (tho maybe there were two of three of them...) - if you do well racing it, you can expect the rating to get adjusted to slow you down. With a standard C&C 33 the well-sailed boat has the protection of a dozen or two just like in the region - you can't be hit for success - with a one off, you have no cover should you in fact develop skill...

Buy the C&C 25, enjoy it and learn, and come back to the market after you have some ownership experience under your belt.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Just to add that if I had got the 35 first I never ever would have bought the 25 or the 30'. The 35-1 is such a good sailor.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Bah... I had an appointment to see the local C&C 25 on monday... he sold it last night... used my call as leverage on someone else... as well

Heh, maybe for the best though as sounds like I wouldn't have got much off his asking price

These are also some boats that people got back to me on if anyone wants to take a gander
C&C 34, 1980, 25K
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...&lang=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=limg&&ywo=limg&
C&C33 MK1, 1976, 25K
http://www.cnc-yachts.com/for_sale/index.php?a=2&b=147
C&C 32 1980, 29K
http://www.boatsville.com/used_boats_detail.cfm?boatid=43816
C&C 30 1974 17K (seems to have been updated a fair bit)
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/7268#

I had emailed this guy about his C&C 35 MK1 but he had sold, he wanted 25 K and let her go for 18 (so he says, but not much reason to fib)
http://www.cnc-yachts.com/for_sale/index.php?a=2&b=133


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

All good deals go fast. When you see one you really like drop what you are doing and check it out. Too bad about the 25. Someone got a great boat for a steal.

You are NUTs to look at 35 foot boats. You have never even drive a 25.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

mikehoyt said:


> All good deals go fast. When you see one you really like drop what you are doing and check it out. Too bad about the 25. Someone got a great boat for a steal.
> 
> You are NUTs to look at 35 foot boats. You have never even drive a 25.


Actually I"m mainly looking at the 25's, 27's and 30's atm, I just posted those links as those people actually got back to me...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

*Alternatives*

If you don't need standing headroom, see if you can find a Viking 28 - its a C&C design built by Ontario Yachts - great cockpit, berths for 4, lots of cockpit locker storage and a well behaved great sailing boat. It will likely be on the low end of the price range as well. Some early models were supplied as hull & deck kits and owner-completed so keep that in mind.

We owned one (our second boat) for 10 years and loved it. We had great confidence in the boat in all conditions.

And she's pretty, too!

While the mid-30sft range may not be a typical starter, if you're confident that this is what you want it could save you a step - but starting small is easier on the pocketbook and to learn on.

If you go to the midsized boats you posted, some of the 34s have a rep for wet core in the hull. The 32 is a nice boat, some are keel/centerboards, the 33 is a has smaller accomodation but a solid glass layup in the hull. Any of these may be found with A4s or diesels... luck of the draw there.

And don't get hung up on C&Cs - lots of them are great boats, but don't rule out the CS27 (affordable and a good sailing boat, esp to weather) and even the Grampian 26 (a bit of an ugly duckling, IMO, but a surprisingly good sailing boat)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Here are a couple local options...

27" CS 1977 25K (4 hrs away)
http://www.sunnybrookyachts.com/cor...64&lang=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=syb&&ywo=syb&
27" C&C 1986 32.5 K (4 Hrs away)
http://www.sunnybrookyachts.com/cor...57&lang=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=syb&&ywo=syb&


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

The 27 looks nice. If you are paying that much though there is a 1981 C&C30 902 657-3045 With NEW engine 2005 as well. 30 might be a bit on the large size but this boat has new sails, new engine, new paint job, new cradle, new, new,new and is only 2K more than the 27 at Sunnybrook. Is also only 50 miles away by water.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

mikehoyt said:


> The 27 looks nice. If you are paying that much though there is a 1981 C&C30 902 657-3045 With NEW engine 2005 as well. 30 might be a bit on the large size but this boat has new sails, new engine, new paint job, new cradle, new, new,new and is only 2K more than the 27 at Sunnybrook. Is also only 50 miles away by water.


Heh, which 27 did you think was nice? heh, I phoned that guy with the C&C 30... yea, he wants 50K...


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

do you have an email address? contact me at [email protected]

the 30 is listed on kijiji It is owned by Dana Hunter and is basically a Like New boat. He is a boat builder and has brought in a bunch of C&C30 over the years to fix & resell. He has fixed and/or replaced everything on this boat and is now bored with it. I mean everything. New oven, new upholstery, new engine, new sails, new new new. He doesn't believe in the internet so you have to call him.

at the same location is the niagara and a tanzer 26 witha rebuilt Buhk deisel as well as a C&C32 and an aloha 27 all for sale.

Mike


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

*C&c 30*



mikehoyt said:


> ....the 30 is listed on kijiji It is owned by Dana Hunter and is basically a Like New boat. He is a boat builder and has brought in a bunch of C&C30 over the years to fix & resell. He has fixed and/or replaced everything on this boat and is now bored with it. I mean everything. New oven, new upholstery, new engine, new sails, new new new. He doesn't believe in the internet so you have to call him....


I owned a '77 C&C 30 20 years ago and it's still the favorite of the 7 boats I've owned - I may buy it back if the guy I sold it ever sells it.

The C&C 30 is simply a freaking awesome sailboat...It performs well in light or heavy air, and is reputed to be the stiffest boat C&C ever built, from my experience I believe that is true. Nothing breaks on it, I also think it has more room down below than the 33, including headroom to the v bearth.

Just a great boat, iIwould only compare a Tartan 30 to it, any other boat within a few feet of 30 in some way is not up to the C&C 30 (or T30...). Race it, cruise it, you will enjoy it and have the pride of owning a special boat.


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## Zogumwesterly (Jul 24, 2007)

*Grampian 30*

Hello Dumbguy?
Have you considered a Grampian 30? My boat is a 1973 and it does everything I want it to do. It sails to our local Tampa bay phrf rating of 177,(faster than a J-24 in most conditions), the boat has sailed to bermuda, mexico, venezuala, the bahamas and it still keeps going. There is a relatively strong owners group on yahoo groups. You can pick these boats up fairly reasonably priced turnkey and you can not kill these babies.
On our way to long boat key earlier this year we were hitting 9.5Kts surfing a 9' swell in about 25 knots true.

Peace,
Briggs


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

How about a brand new boat that can sail the pants off anything in its class and sleeps four comfortably, is huge down below with all the bells and whistles, including a beer cooler, including sails and a retractable six foot keel for 50k?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Here are a couple local options...
> 
> 27" CS 1977 25K (4 hrs away)
> http://www.sunnybrookyachts.com/core...=syb&&ywo=syb&
> ...


If you can get the name of the CS 27, then go to the CS Owners Association - CSOA Group at Yahoo - and look around to see if you can gather any of its history. You will also find a lot of general information about them there. It is definitely at the upper end of the going prices for the boat. But they are good boats.

Based on the information in the C&C 27 write-up - I think that it is overpriced at listing. Seems that the owner is wanting to recoup the expenditure he made on the new engine. Not a lot of other upgrades mentioned. A very common issue with these boats is delamination of the decks. Find out if and when it was recored, and if so, what core material was used.

I am still going to suggest that you contact a few Ontario boat owners and take a drive up here to look at what's available, for what price. The fall is a good time to do this, as boats will start getting cheaper in a couple of weeks from now.

This is a GREAT boat - seaworthy, fairly fast and very roomy:

Aloha 28 1978 
Self furlling jib, steel cradle, winter cover, new cockpit cushions, custom dodger and bimini, autohelm 800. New VHF, all original manuals. 25# Plough anchor. Upgrades too numerous to mention. 
CDN $17,000 
(519) 843-1834

More C&C 27's:

C&C 27 1971 
Totally refurbished. Recent upgrades: sails, interior, handrails, windows, overhauled Atomic IV, electronic ignition, hull peeled/water barrier applied. Other inventory: furling gear, MP3, dodger, cradle, etc. Free shipping to Toronto area. Photos available 
CDN $19,000 neg 
(519) 869-2568 evening 
(519) 332-6779 x1 day 
E-mail: [email protected]

C&C 27 1972 
Roller Furling, Auto-helm, wheel steering, Atomic 4 engine, cradle alcohol stove, 3 sails, VHF, 4 PFD. Berthed Bridgeview Marina, Sarnia. 
CDN $15,800 neg 
(519) 336-9154 evening 
E-mail: [email protected]

C&C 27 1973 
Motivated to sell. Well-maintained. Cruising equipped. VHF, depth/speed, Force 10 BBQ. Matching dodger, awning, boom cover. New mainsail (1998), three headsails, spinnaker. Winter cover. Equipment list/photos available. REDUCED. 
CDN $21,900 neg 
(705) 759-3454 
E-mail: [email protected]

C&C 27 1974 
Very good condition. Wheel Steering. Fresh water boat until 2000. Professionally maintained: decks re-corred, Atomic IV rebuilt 1999. Newer: sails, teak/holly sole, through hulls, depth. Owner Motivated! Lying P.E.I 
CDN $21,500 neg 
(902) 432-1502 evening 
E-mail: [email protected]

C&C 27 MK1 1972 
Exceptional cruising yacht in great shape. Many sails, spinnaker gear, Atomic IV, tiller steering, and much more. Call South shore Yachts Inc. 
CDN $13,900 
(905) 468-4340 Niagara 
(905) 274-4340 Port Credit 
Web: www.southshoreyachts.com

C&C 27 MKIII 1975 
Awesome condition/fully loaded. Wheel steering, lots of sails, Harken furling, Autohelm, BBQ, Vari-fold prop, new batteries, stereo. Woodwork redone, folding cradle, Atomic IV, lazy jacks, Vetus filter. Engine professionally maintained. Awlgrip hull. Fast/reliable racer/cruiser. Lying Toronto. 
CDN $24,490 obo 
(416) 570-8422 
E-mail: [email protected]

C&C 27 MKV 1984 
Classic design. In top condition. Very popular racer/cruiser, fully loaded. Fresh water vessel. Midland, Ontario. See website for specs. 
CDN $25,900 
(705) 435-6457 evening 
(905) 951-5000 ext. 2635 day 
Web: www.bmts.com/~turacz/Smoke

C&C 27 MKV 1985 
Yanmar diesel, Harken furling, 5 sails including DRS, Bimini, Autohelm. Dual axle trailer included in price. 
CDN $23,500 neg 
(613) 498-2977 evening 
E-mail: [email protected]

C&C 27 MKV 1986 
Popular sought after class racer/cruiser. A well-kept yacht with diesel power. For further information call Pat Sturgeon Yachts or visit our website. 
CDN $28,500 
(905) 278-5100 
E-mail: [email protected] 
Web: www.patsturgeonyachts.com

Here is a CS 27 WITH TRAILER :

CS 27 1982 
Yanmar diesel 8hp, self tailing winches, tiller, shoal draft, Harken furling, lazy jacks. Instruments, Teak Holly sole, VC17, four opening ports, cockpit cushions, Dodger, folding table. One owner. Double batteries. Selox tandem axle trailer never raced. Lying North Bay, On. 
CDN $28,000 firm

This is a high-quality boat:

Mirage 29 1986 
Meticulously maintained family cruiser/racer. Freshwater sailed. Roomy aft cabin design. Reliable Volvo diesel engine, full cruising and racing sail inventory, many upgrades. Equipped with roller furling, fully enclosed dodger/bimini, stove, fridge, two anchors, three props and two new batteries. Asking: 
CDN $39,000 neg 
(416) 359-4133 day 
(416) 232-2725 evening 
E-mail: [email protected]

These are pretty fast boats - inexpensive beacuse you can't stand up inside unless you are fairly short:

Viking 28 
Great shape. Steel cradle. 9.9hp, dodger, radio, 120V/12V, folding table, teak and holly floor. Must well. Will take best offer. Lying Toronto Island. Best Offer.

(416) 951-4359 evening 
E-mail: [email protected]

Viking 28 1973 
Racer/cruiser C&C design. 10hp Yanmar Marine diesel w/few hours. Four sails. Sleeps four. Steel cradle. Lying Southampton, ON. 
CDN $6,000 neg 
(519) 797-1818 evening 
E-mail: [email protected]

Viking 28 1976 
7HP gas. Wood finished interior, Autohelm, collapsing cradle, sink, head, alcohol stove, icebox, SSTL BBQ. Genoa 1-2-3 Storm, spinnaker, pool, main, furling. Knotmeter, depthsounder, Loran C, compass, VHF-25W, Radio/CD. 
CDN $9,900 neg 
(905) 561-2545 anytime

Viking 28 Sloop 1976 
Great fast racer/cruiser. 4 berths, five sails, new main and storm jib, new battery, new cushions. 9.9 hp Johnson O/B w/few hours. Steel cradle. Looking for new owner. 
CDN $6,900 neg 
(416) 843-5790 cellular 
(905) 813-9416 evening 
E-mail: [email protected]

Now granted, I am a little biased, but if you are going to get a 30 foot boat, these are faster, better-built, and more fun than just about any other 30 foot cruising boat out there:

CS 30 
Beautifully maintained, diesel, wing keel, full enclosure, 8 opening ports, epoxy bottom, cradle, refrigeration, BBQ, speed, depth, wind, autohelm. 
CDN $55,000 
(519) 469-3967 day 
E-mail: [email protected]

CS 30 1985 
A most popular, fast cruiser. Furling, dodger, extensive sail inventory. Many new & upgrades items. Reduced. For further information call Pat Sturgeon Yachts or visit our website. 
CDN $54,900 
(905) 278-5100 
E-mail: [email protected] 
Web: www.patsturgeonyachts.com

CS 30 1985 
Volvo Penta 2002, 18hp diesel. Three sails: North main, #2, #3 genoas. Dodger, bimini, custom winter cover, frame. ST60 instruments, depth, speed, wind, Autohelm. Lying Southern Georgian Bay. 
CDN $47,000 obo 
(519) 986-1849 anytime 
E-mail: [email protected]

CS 30 1985 
Volvo 18hp diesel, North mainsail, #3 furling genoa, Datamarine S200 DL speed & depth, full enclosure, cockpit cushions, 2 burner stove, oven and assorted safety equipment. Contact Swans Yacht Sales, Pickering, ON. 
CDN $49,750 
(905) 420-2141 
E-mail: [email protected] 
Web: www.swansyachtsales.com

CS 30 1986 
Shoal draft, dodger, steel cradle, Harken furling, Georgian Bay used only. Zodiac & outboard. Bay Harbour Yachts. 
CDN $49,900 
(705) 526-2222 
E-mail: [email protected] 
Web: www.bayharbouryachts.on.ca

CS 30 1986 
Volvo 18hp DSL, VHF, compass, shorepower, dodger, bimini and sailcover. Steel cradle, safety equipment, good sails inventory. Outstanding vessel! Listing #06T-04. Anchor Yacht Sales. 
CDN $52,900 
(905) 891-0191 office 
E-mail: [email protected] 
Web: www.anchoryachtsales.com

CS 30 1987 
Main, jib, genoa, Harken furling, dodger, bimini, autopilot, wind speed, depth, stereo, CD, battery charger, VHF, Loran, refrigeration, stove/oven, BBQ, folding prop, inflatable opening ports. 
CDN $57,500 neg 
(905) 689-0946 evening 
E-mail: [email protected]

CS 30 1987 
Excellent Condition. Includes new instruments, autohelm, CD Player. Sails include; #1, #3, FB Main. Dodger and cockpit table. Winter cradle and full canvas enclosure. 
CDN $59,900 obo 
(416) 356-2399 day 
(905) 842-1079 evening 
E-mail: [email protected]

CS 30 1987 
Beautifully maintained and completely outfitted! Call Niagara-on-the-Lake Yacht Sales. Two from 
CDN $56,500 
(877) 624-6312 toll free 
E-mail: [email protected] 
Web: www.niagarayachtsales.com


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

bestfriend said:


> How about a brand new boat that can sail the pants off anything in its class and sleeps four comfortably, is huge down below with all the bells and whistles, including a beer cooler, including sails and a retractable six foot keel for 50k?


Dam that sounds good... what is the name of that boat?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think I lucked into a good starter boat. I had never heard of Express Yachting, which was made in Canada in the 80's, but ended up buying an Express 30. It had fairly good cruising accomodations (propane stove/oven, icebox, enclosed head, comfortable sleeping for 5 with the quarterberth model), but also had a double spreader rod rig, 5.5 foot lead keel, and full racing rig. We raced it on the Chesapeake for 5 years where it had a PHRF rating of 144, and did fairly well. By the end of that time we were on the podium most of the time; the rating is very "fair" for this boat. And being a 30 foot boat the sails were fairly affordable. My wife wanted a bigger boat, so we splurged for a C&C 110 (which on the Chesapeake has the rediculous PHRF rating of 60). But I still miss my old Express 30. If you can find one, get it.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

well?...what did you get?..I started reading this before I saw how old it was...


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Damn it where is SD when ya need him  Personally the requirements are met by a Barberis (good luck finding one in the states!!!)


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## jdep4382 (Jan 4, 2009)

Sabre 28 has a lot to offer. Good speed, stable, roomy for a 28, good construction.


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