# The economics of sailing around the world



## chriscross80 (Oct 30, 2012)

So since this has been a dream of mine for a really long time it should make for a good topic. I remember at 12 years old wanting to be like Robin Lee Graham from "Dove". Sailing around the world having total and complete freedom. Visiting many exotic locales. Finding a South Pacific deserted island and becoming king of it (Gilligans Island). But unfortunately life got in the way of that dream. Now about 25 years later I hope it does happen someday. But what do you think would be the bare minimum cost (including a sea-worthy boat) of a lets say a 3 year round the world sailboat voyage? The route trip probably leaving California, going to Mexico, Hawaii, then head out to the South Pacific. Discover all the islands there. Then onto Australia, Asia, the Indian Ocean, Africa, and Europe. Then over the Atlantic Ocean to the Eastern side of the USA, all the Carribean Islands. Go through the Panama Canal, sail up to Canada and the Inside Passage. Then slowly sail down the Western side of the USA onto to the home port of SoCal. I know you would have to have quite a well-equipped sea worthy vessel for a trip like that!


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Detailed spreadsheet for this particular couple at the bottom:

S/V BeBe: Costs

They did an interesting podcast interview. Episode 31:

http://thesailingpodcast.com/sailing-podcast/


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I'm not sure how a poll would give you the information that you want as the bare minimum cost for my needs are different from anyone else's. Plus, everyone has a different idea of what boat works for them, therefore the cost for that will differ from one person to the next.


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## minnow1193 (Dec 20, 2011)

Great link, Donna. Very informative.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

My boat cost $100k and I spent about $30k per year. Maybe a little less.

Now I'm finsihed the Circumnavigation and 'just' cruisin' it still costs me the same amount  But in reality active cruising does cost a little more than doing it very slowly. I did mine in 2.5 years, similar to your plan 3 years. But if you take ten years it coses less per year... but not by much. Overall the quicker the cheaper.


Mark


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

minnow1193 said:


> Great link, Donna. Very informative.


Or, depressing, for some of us of more modest means... 

Closer to the opposite end of the spectrum, one guy I've always greatly admired is Jack van Ommen... Sounds like his style might be of a bit more interest to the OP...



> "You don't have to have a really big boat, mine certainly isn't, and you don't have to be rich. I'm doing my sailing on income from my Social Security plus some writing."
> 
> ...
> 
> When the time came for my boyhood dream to come true at age 65, in 2002, I was broke. There were months that my landlady had to wait a couple weeks for my rent to be scraped up. "Fleetwood" escaped the 2000 business and personal bankruptcy. In 1994 I was still worth over a million. But a new life started with my first social security check. I worked on getting "Fleetwood" ready. She had sat on her trailer for 10 years while I worked hard to try and turn my business back from a hard knock. I am writing this for the benefit of you who think that it needs a lot of savings to go to sea. Keep the boat small and the equipment simple. Choose your seasons and sailing routes carefully.


1) About Jack and ?Fleetwood? ?s Circumnavigation | Fleetwoods Circumnavigation

48° North - Feature Article


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

DRFerron said:


> Detailed spreadsheet for this particular couple at the bottom:
> 
> S/V BeBe: Costs
> 
> ...


Whilst the spreadsheet gives an insight into some costs that are not often considered, I have a tough time reconciling some of their numbers with what we spend. OK at this time I'm not even talking about cruising. But we spend less than some of the item lines even living ashore.

Like medical, insurance, mooring fees. An example: our boat is insured for what we paid and have capitalised over the last 6 years plus $1m of public liability cover and we pay NZ$1450 per annum. Now given that an Amel Maramu is probably worth double what my humble vessel is, still their insurance is the equivalent of about $8300 a year which is HUGE by comparison. Their average marina/mooring spend would pay for 133 days in an upmarket marina in downtown Auckland.

$34k to ship a boat?!?! I would have sailed around the Cape of Good Hope for 5% of that and visited another 4 or 5 other countries. That for me is part of the cruising process.

I won't go on - suffice it to say that if that is the "real" cost of cruising then my dream of long-term cruising is dead in the water (excuse the pun)

Sorry, I'm not voting on account of I don't know.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Omatako said:


> Whilst the spreadsheet gives an insight into some costs that are not often considered, I have a tough time reconciling some of their numbers with what we spend. ...


That's exactly my point. That link was that particular couple. Everyone is different.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

DRFerron said:


> That's exactly my point. That link was that particular couple. Everyone is different.


Apologies - I thought you were suggesting this is a realistic cost of cruising. I'm with Jon - my cruising will be shoe-string stuff.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Omatako said:


> Sorry, I'm not voting on account of I don't know.


Thats good, beacuse some who dont know have been putting figures like $25,000 for a circumnavigation. including the boat. Even lyn and Larry Pardy couldnt do it for that in the 1960s


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I am one of the $50k to $75k people. This is certainly not our budget since our boat was much more than this. For this price I am picturing something like a Vega properly equipped and a fairly spartan lifestyle with virtually no marinas, few restaurant meals, no insurance, no expensive land travel. The last item would be the one I would most miss as we have really enjoyed traveling around countries as diverse as Ecuador, New Zealand, and South Africa. Two weeks driving to Kruger NP and other parks in SA was not cheap but chance of a lifetime to see lions, elephants, etc up close is a once in a lifetime thing.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

When circumnavigated in the 70's I estimated our personal costs at about US$100.00 per person. Insurance wasn't even something one would consider at 1/4 of the value of the boat per year. There were lots of places where a haul out was quite reasonable or free (pilings on a beach). Decent bottom paint could be had for about US$100.00 for 5 gallons from a ship and sails were built to last, unlike the 5 year/100,000 mile "guaranty" of today's sailmakers.
There were not too many expensive electronic aids to break; sextants, stop watches a radio or 2, plotting sheets and a taffrail log, were about it, and not too perishable.
I believe today a couple could cruise comfortably on about a grand a month, but you aren't going to be eating prime rib too many times a month. Keeping damage and wear and tear to a minimum by sailing conservatively and doing haul outs in third world countries would help a lot.
You won't get insurance in that, personal or boat, and things like the Panama and/or Suez canals would probably require a bit of skimping for a few months.
My best suggestion is to get an annuity which would pay you a fixed sum each month, so you know exactly how much income you have each month. Split it into two accounts; one for expenses and one for emergencies.
Working in foreign countries is pretty much prohibited unless you have a skill which they do not, so you can either work for other other yachts or do deliveries to augment your cruising budget. Chartering for cruisers is a pipe dream.
Buying provisions in bulk, if you have the room, can help a lot, but it restricts variety and some folks just can't handle that. Canned butter, cheese, whole chickens and cabin biscuits are good staples and many of the SoPac islands have very reasonable Red Chinese foods in cans.
Always make friends with the crews of freighters; they have washers/driers aboard, free cancelled charts and you'll probably be invited for a meal and a few drinks in their onboard pubs and a game of darts, if it's not a US ship.
But if you can't "live like a local" food wise, it will be very hard to do a trip for that kind of money.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Capta, we lived on not much than $1000 a month a few years ago not including insurance but this was with the boat in very good shape and not being in parts of the world where we wanted to travel inland. Also costs of entry into certain countries can kill a budget. Australia was more than $500 and Panama and Ecuador were more. Costs have gone up ... a lot.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

killarney_sailor said:


> Capta, we lived on not much than $1000 a month a few years ago not including insurance but this was with the boat in very good shape and not being in parts of the world where we wanted to travel inland. Also costs of entry into certain countries can kill a budget. Australia was more than $500 and Panama and Ecuador were more. Costs have gone up ... a lot.


OK, I stand corrected. I never paid for entry into any SoPac country, NZ & OZ included. Indonesia was just a few pennies as was Egypt and most Med countries except Greece. Turkey was US$1.00 for a hundred miles of coastwise travel.
I guess I'm way out of date and I'm sorry about that. Old timer's disease has overtaken me.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I think it just depends on the person.

On land, some can live in a tent in the wilderness for a few bucks a day, and some have to live in the penthouse in downtown New York. It's the same with boats, some can live in a little boat at anchor eating ramen and drinking water, and some are only happy if they are on a crewed yacht eating steak every day. It's all about expectations.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Can't fault the OP for having a dream and trying to feel out the cost of it. As stated by many, others experience will not necessarily work for everyone. 

I believe a better approach is to figure out what you can come up with for funding and then determine the boat/lifestyle that will afford and decide if its acceptable.

While cruising can be less expensive than living ashore for us, I don't want to go on an extended cruise, if I have to live on austerity to do it. You may feel differently.


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## AKscooter (Jan 18, 2009)

I think a decent way is to figure out what your lifestyle is on land.......because that is what you chose and if you are going sailing you probably want to approximate that as much as possible. While living Gilligan's Isle style is romantic most folks seriously cannot stand the idea of no internet, restaurants, other forms of entertainment. In the old days if you could not afford it ....you went anyway and just enjoyed the things you could afford to do.....You did NOT dwell on the safari you missed, the Superbowl Sunday festival or any of the other things that cost more than you could afford.....Do I need to know where I am to 10 meters.....no really...no....I do need a decent set of charts, a compass, good anchor with plenty of chain, coffee....I really need coffee.....plenty of dried goods with a solar distiller, and for grins maybe some paperback books that i got on sale for ten for a dollar because someone else thought they were worthless........ decent flashlight, and serviceable gear....the kind that certain folks call seconds or thirds.....but that is my style.......what is your style on land?....'cause that is your style on sea. Yes I am gonna skip places that want me to pay for the privilege of gracing their country....but there are plenty of other places of equal value that I can go....learn something new and have adventures.......


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

AKscooter said:


> Do I need to know where I am to 10 meters.....no really...no....I do need a decent set of charts, a compass, good anchor with plenty of chain, coffee....I really need coffee.....


Actually, if you are attempting to cut costs, you DO need a GPS that will pinpoint your position exactly, and do your navigating relying primarily on electronic charts...

One of the thing that jumped out at me from those folks in Donna's link, was that for a couple averaging over $50K per year in costs, how miniscule was their annual cost for charts and guides... They're obviously relying primarily on e-charts. The cost of carrying "a decent set of (paper) charts" for a circumnavigation today has become astronomical, and those wishing to do their voyaging/navigating 'the old-fashioned way' are gonna pay for it now, bigtime...

The days of doing anything other than a non-stop circumnavigation on the cheap are gone, the fixed costs of fees for entry into various countries have skyrocketed in recent years, they remain basically the same whether you're sailing a 20' Flicka or an 80' Oyster, and will only continue to increase... If one really wants to go places, there's just no getting around many of those costs...



> When actual costs exceeded expectations, the root was repair and maintenance. In a few cases, marina fees in some parts of the world were the reason. "Docking fees have soared in the past few years, and services have become more expensive," said Barry Esrig, the owner of a Baltic 51, Lady E. "Croatia often charges for anchoring, while Turkey now requires an agent to clear in and out." Jim Patek of Let's Go!, an Ovni 435, offered a similar sentiment. "On my latest voyage, I observed right away that the day of the shoestring cruiser is gone," he said. "In some of the places where we used to anchor, one must now use docking or mooring facilities."
> 
> Cap'n Fatty Goodlander found that on his second circumnavigation aboard his boat, Wild Card, a Hughes 38, costs were occasionally higher than expected due to several factors. "Clearing-in and -out costs are now skyrocketing," he said.
> 
> Jimmy Cornell: What it Costs to Cruise | Cruising World


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

I've been reading Cap'n Fatty articles for years. He and his wife have circumnavigated on a shoestring budget and seem perfectly happy. I know a few people who would require 20 times what Fatty & his wife spend in order to be happy. Where there's a will there's a way, unless you can't give up certain things not related to survival.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Go and read Shrimpy by Shane Acton for some ideas on a minimalist circumnavigation. 

BTW IMHO he made several major withdrawals from his luck box to begin with.

The Bunfuzzles are also worth a look for another couple who circumnavigated starting with little experience. 

However both Shane Acton and the fuzzles had common sense and stickability. You won't get round without some of both.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

I t *could* be done for close to free if you got some old wreck donated by a marina and ate whatever you could catch, but this is barely a step up from bare survival in a liferaft.
IMHO someone not adverse to a lot of hard work and discomfort might do it for $50K all in. Think the Cal 25 that went around a few times


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

Wow, BeBe spent a LOT on haul-outs! I am sweating over $6.50/foot!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I don't want to go on an extended cruise, if I have to live on austerity to do it. You may feel differently.


Money means a lot in world cruising.
I just looked back at my website to find a representative photo of what money gives you that is important. There were lots, but also none, if ya know what I mean:









These little cuties dont come cheap! For a start you have to get to Indonesia. Then its a 2 day rented boat, have to leave someone on your own boat for 'security'

The boat trip (cheapest!) is a boat with just yourselves, 3 or 4 crew. all tres romantic etc 









It costs more than some poster said it cost for his whole circumnavigation!

Buy who can give up the chance to have this memory in your life:










The thing is that EVERY country has these unmissable things that, yes that hoary old cliché, can change your life or be a life memory. What one cant you have because you decided not to save up for it?

Mark


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I think the BeBe spreadsheet is at the top end. It all depends on your entertainment budget. If you want to explore inland and do the tourist thing, it would be very expensive, like a vacation for 3 years. If you mainly want to anchor out and cook aboard, and not be flying home every couple of months, it would be less expensive. If you start out with a boat in good shape and experience no large breakdowns, the only expenses in addition to what you would spend ashore would be customs and immigration charges, The Panama Canal, and maybe fuel. Even the fuel would be close to what you'd put in the car at home, especially if you drive a guzzler. Boat expenses occur at home as well. Food may be a bit more but not if you plan well. You're not paying to heat or cool a house. You're not wearing out (depreciating) a car. You're not paying a large electric bill, phone bill. If you have a house, you can consider renting it out which might go a long way to put the whole trip in the black. There's more to figuring out the bottom line than someone's spreadsheet of expenses.

I agree with Minnewaska that doing it on austerity is really pointless. If you can't get out and explore the places you go, what's the point? Not having done this (yet), I didn't enter anything on the poll but I would guess three years would total 120k to be able to enjoy it.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Money means a lot in world cruising.
> I just looked back at my website to find a representative photo of what money gives you that is important. There were lots, but also none, if ya know what I mean:
> 
> 
> ...


Mark, let's be honest here, being able to throw 100Gs plus at a boat and spend 50 to 200k per year for a dream sail around the world, all while having no working income, isn't about "deciding to save up for it."

Folks, at this level of dream lifestyle are financially independant to begin with. Some are trust fund babies, others bootstrapped themselves to seven figure net worths. The spending is totally descretionary. Once spent it is gone! None are spending money that will be needed later to fund retirement or children's education. No one in good conscience is going to sail off to Bora Bora leaving the kids to fend for themselves with college loans. None are going to spend money that will be needed to produce income later. This is play money! And it's a bank roll the average person will never have.

While it would be nice for the average person to be able to save enough to spend several hundred thousand dollars producing memories with dream vacations, for the average person they've got to tone that way down. The money has to go a long way. Survey says, that if a couple is healthy at age 65 one of the spouses will live to 90. If they retire at age 65, that's 25 years of no income and increasing expenses. For the average middle class worker in the United States, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for dream chasing is not possible. Of course dream chasing at a lesser financial level is not only possible but advisable!


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

wind_magic said:


> I think it just depends on the person.
> 
> On land, some can live in a tent in the wilderness for a few bucks a day, and some have to live in the penthouse in downtown New York. It's the same with boats, some can live in a little boat at anchor eating ramen and drinking water, and some are only happy if they are on a crewed yacht eating steak every day. It's all about expectations.


It really is about expectations.

The juxtaposition of seeing a million dollar motorhome parked in a space at a campground next to bicycle tourist in tents has to be seen to be appreciated. And, just who is creating the better memories depends only on your point of view.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

TJC45 said:


> Folks, at this level of dream lifestyle are financially independant to begin with. Some are trust fund babies, others bootstrapped themselves to seven figure net worths.


Folks I've met have worked hard, saved hard, invested hard, and gone without many, many, many things to now enjoy their retirement.

_*Worked*_ for the trips around the world. Sure some had some luck like spouses not dying, or kids hitting up not jail, or houses not buring down... but apart from that its just been work and saving.

Mark


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

So the only reason everyone is not a mulit-millionaire is lack of work ethic  Really 
Some of the hardest working most frugal people I know are a bare step ahead of poverty and their dream is saving enough for 2 weeks at the ocean (downie_ocean in local slang) instead of 1.

I am really glad some people can save enough to do this kind of thing. I used to make a fair living working on their boats and this keep my own boat running 
It varies between insulting and vastly out of touch with reality to think ANYONE can just go do this if only they quit wasting money on lotto tickets or whatever. I would tell anyone that going to the Bahamas NOW in an old Alberg 30 and eating fresh caught grouper beats the hell out of waiting for your maybe one day 7 or 8 figure bank account.



MarkofSeaLife said:


> Folks I've met have worked hard, saved hard, invested hard, and gone without many, many, many things to now enjoy their retirement.
> 
> _*Worked*_ for the trips around the world. Sure some had some luck like spouses not dying, or kids hitting up not jail, or houses not buring down... but apart from that its just been work and saving.
> 
> Mark


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Coquina said:


> It varies between insulting and vastly out of touch with reality to think ANYONE can just go do this if only they quit wasting money on lotto tickets or whatever. I would tell anyone that going to the Bahamas NOW in an old Alberg 30 and eating fresh caught grouper beats the hell out of waiting for your maybe one day 7 or 8 figure bank account.


Exactly...

I also think the mistake made by some, is the common tendency to set the bar immediately upon a circumnavigation... Depending upon your location, there are many, MANY more achievable alternatives that I think can be equally satisfying... Those of us here on the East Coast are particularly fortunate in this regard, with the incredible variety of choices at our disposal, one could easily spend several years doing a North Atlantic Circle, for instance...

I used to think of sailing around the world as being the ultimate achievement for a sailor, but I'm past that now... The logistics are simply too daunting for me at the moment, and I've come to accept I'm far better off focusing on trying to do circular voyages of a year at a time, such as a circuit of the North Atlantic islands & Caribbean, for starters...

For anyone thinking about this, I highly recommend Jimmy Cornell's WORLD VOYAGE PLANNER... It's way more than a re-hash of his WORLD CRUISING ROUTES, he outlines a myriad of circular voyages in every ocean of the world, originating from every continent... Fantastic fireside reading, once you pick this book up, you won't soon put it down, and he'll have you thinking about possibilities and alternatives you're never dreamed of before...

NEW: World Voyage Planner, Jimmy Cornell?s Latest Book | Cornell Sailing Publications and Sailing Events


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Folks I've met have worked hard, saved hard, invested hard, and gone without many, many, many things to now enjoy their retirement.
> 
> _*Worked*_ for the trips around the world. Sure some had some luck like spouses not dying, or kids hitting up not jail, or houses not buring down... but apart from that its just been work and saving.
> 
> Mark


You may have met some people who have done that, but,as a financial advisor who manages over 500 million dollars of other people's money I'm telling it like it is. For the average middle class person bringing down less than a six figure income over a lifetime taking $300k or more for a five year circumnavigation isn't in the budget.

That said, that same person can retire with a seven figure net worth. let's do some math. Let's say they retire with a 401k worth 1.5 million dollars. That's the lion's share of their investable assets. That 1.5 mil has to support this person or this couple for the rest of their lives. They are done trying to make money. Time to let the money they've saved work for them. No more taking a "shot' in the market. No more investing in a start up business. At this point in life those risks are behind them. BTW, everyone here over age 55 got 1.5 mil or more in their 401K?

This person's income before retirement was $100,000 a year. If invested conservatively that 1.5 mil, if all invested for income, will bring about 4% a year. That's with taking some risk. That replaces $60,000 of the $100,000 income. But there is a problem. If 100% of the assets are invested for income what about inflation? Realistically only 60 to 70% of the assets should be invested for income. The rest for growth as an inflation hedge. Investing just over a million dollars for income at 4% gives us just over $40,000 in income. That 40k will grow every year or should. Of course in a real live case the balance point is someplace in between 40k on the low side and 60k on the high side. Increased risk alternatives abound that could bring the income up to 100k. But the point is, this guy went from making $100k a year saving like mad and is only making 40k to 60k in retirement. He's already short!

Now lets take $300k off the top of those assets for a round the world trip. We are now working with with 1.2 million. Everyone reading this has 1.2 million in the bank right? OK, it's not a bad number, but for our guy it's not enough. At 4% low risk, 100% invested for income, he'll pull $48,000 a year. Less than half his working income.

If he goes the recommended 70/30 he's down to $33,600. He's now making about a third of his working income. Of course social security will kick in at some point. But, does a 66% income cut work for anyone here?

A million dollars is a lot of money until you have to live off it while protecting it. Then not so much!

Again, it's not about tightening your belt. And, for most people it's not about the economics of sailing. It's about the economics of living. Every dollar spent is one dollar less that can used to provide for the future. if you are wealthy enough this is not an issue. For most folks, it is where they live financially.

I deal with this every day and at every level. From joe lunchbox rolling over his 401k to corp exec dealing with his stock options, to high flying business owner deciding how much risk he should take. In the end, the answers are never easy.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

The "cost" question is one of the most difficult to answer in the cruising world. My favorite answer I've heard is that "cruising costs whatever you have".

My attempt to answer the question using examples from some recent cruisers is given here in this blog post: What does it cost to go cruising?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I don't think Mark (or I for that matter) are suggesting you need $300k for a three year circumnavigation that allows for some of the finer things a few meals ashore and inland travel. We spent over a month backpacking in Ecuador and Peru, did it economically and had a great time. Never spent more than $30 a night for a room and travelled by bus. Much more fun and authentic rxperience than staying at the local Hilton and flying.

The original question asked was what is the minimum amount needed. I was in the $50 to $75k group but if you want a few extras I think a couple needs $20 to $25k a year, including boat costs, plus the initial boat costs which go from $20k to $200k or much mor depending on your preferences and wallet size.

Final thought, makes sense to consider the cost of boat acquisition and prep separately from the monthly costs. Once you drink that beer or go see the orangutans that money is gone, but when your trip is over you still have your boat either to enjoy or to sell for a substantial percentage of what you put into it, assuming you have kept it up as you go.

Final, final thought, if you are a very risk-adverse person and worrying about how you will pay the bills in 2040 this lifestyle is not for you. You need to act and plan sensibly but you to be prepared to take a risk or three.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

My number for the cost was taking a combo of what was set out in the spread sheet and what Mark mentioned as the cost of his boat. I have no idea what it would cost to sail around the world. I didn't enter a vote.

I don't take issue with people spending money as they see fit for what is important to them. Only with one comment made by Mark that the difference between a bare bones trip and a top rate trip is a matter of saving more money. between the income stopping while on the trip and the cost of the trip IMO, at the levels discussed here, the high end trip is out for most people of average means. Simply put, they don't make enough to save enough. 

I'm all for 30 cents on the dollar adventures. I can tell you my average cost for riding a bicycle from New Jersey to Key West Florida was about $30 a day. There are ways to lower that cost but I wanted motels once every few days instead of camping and because you are the engine, ya gotta eat right! Not counting the bike, panniers or camping gear (all useable for other trips) the trip down cost me about $600. I guess i should add in the $300 it cost to get me and the bike back to New Jersey. Still, all in all, a very cheap 3 week adventure!!!


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

At one time these trips were done by young adventurers on low to no budget.
Nowadays, it seems to be a luxury retirement trip.

I could do it pretty cheap if I stuffed my boat with ramen noodles and didn't stop anywhere!


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Didn't answer, haven't done it yet. We may end up as "East coast of America loop" people, although the attraction of the South Pacific islands and other locations is very real, brought-on in part through Mark's blog.

There are some must-have equipment items that I'd want, such as solar panels driving a fridge and freezer (and a watermaker). Now that I've read Richard Kollmann's book and installed an electric fridge and freezer on our boat, the cost versus benefit is amazing. A freezer can keep food for a long time and a fridge can keep locally-purchased food fresh. Over 3 years, I'd bet the system pays for itself just in the ability to store leftovers and buy in bulk. (And it's great to have cold drinks!)

So I personally wouldn't backdown from the $1K that I spent on our system. And we do our (currently very limited) cruising with all the tools, gauges, and refrigerant to fix our system or another cruiser's system. -- A possible source of income or at least a free beer or two.

--

From the above, I think the costs go down if you know how to fix your own equipment, and can therefore help others fix theirs.

Regards,
Brad


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

My wife is very interested in the Great Loop. Scenery and new towns - to her - beats 3,000 miles of ocean. I'll do either


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

But the great loop is a stinkpotters dream?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

TJC45 said:


> I can tell you my average cost for riding a bicycle from New Jersey to Key West Florida was about $30 a day.


At $30 per day is $1000 per month. But you only have to maintain a bicycle.

Mark


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Bene505 said:


> . . . . although the attraction of the South Pacific islands and other locations is very real


That's the express reason why we immigrated to New Zealand - to have a foot in the South Pacific 



Bene505 said:


> There are some must-have equipment items that I'd want, such as solar panels driving a fridge and freezer (and a watermaker). . . . . Over 3 years, I'd bet the system pays for itself just in the ability to store leftovers and buy in bulk.


So this is why I don't get the inclusion of the cost of the boat in "cost of cruising" in the poll.

What I spend on my boat (buying and upgrading) is an investment that may or may not depreciate. It is only the depreciation if anything that should be costed into the equation. Unless of course you are planning on donating the vessel when your'e done cruising (stand in line - the Amel is mine). When the boat is sold the difference between cost price and selling price can be accounted for. I note that "the spreadsheet" didn't cost any capital loss/gain into their equation either.

My expenditure for the last three years has been predominantly upgrades and very little needed for maintenance. In fact of the last $30k I've spent I reckon maybe 10% is maintenance. So we reckon we can cruise on a grand a month in 6-monthly bursts, summer in NZ and winter in the islands.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> At $30 per day is $1000 per month. But you only have to maintain a bicycle.
> Mark


Yes but you can't go down below to prepare a meal or sleep on a bicycle  Therein lies the cost.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I think a lot of it depends on how many stops you make too. There are no shops in the middle of the ocean, and you'll probably have the same amount of money in your wallet or purse when you reach land as you had when you left it.


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## Unkle Toad (May 11, 2013)

I dont really have much of an opinion on the cost of a full circumnavigation but I wanted to see keep up the good work everyone this thread has good intelligent posts from people with greatly different experience and backgrounds. im warming up to the idea of a pacific circle instead of a circumnavigation in 2-3 years then back to society for a year or two while I process what happend what I liked what I didnt and what to change before a longer trip if it happens at all .


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

I think yall are missing Mark's point here.. He's not saying everyone has to be rich to make this trip. From what I took, he's just saying that if you are planning(and if you are planning you should have planned long before and saved for this) to go on a circnav trip, you plan for things to see while you're doing it. He saying that what is the point of doing it if you stay on your boat and not actually SEE the places you anchor at. What memories you could have made that will be lifelong or life changing. No where did he say you needed millions of dollars saved, or 300k for a trip. Obviously you will have to plan according to your budget(see: budgeting). If you can only spend 20k a year on the voyage, budget in that 20k that you will do something and see places. It's not hard to plan ahead. Yea it will be a lot of work and ahead of time research but this isn't a family beach trip for the weekend. If you can only afford circle voyages or a trip to the Carrib then that is something each person has to decide: Do I take this shorter trip now or keep saving for a bigger trip. So I think yall should re-read what Mark is saying on the subject, he makes a good point. The point of a circnav is to see the world, not to just sail around it.. at least in my eyes.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

BoatyardBoy said:


> I think yall are missing Mark's point here.. He's not saying everyone has to be rich to make this trip. From what I took, he's just saying that if you are planning(and if you are planning you should have planned long before and saved for this) to go on a circnav trip, you plan for things to see while you're doing it. He saying that what is the point of doing it if you stay on your boat and not actually SEE the places you anchor at.


Thanks,
You've explained it better than I did.

Not only that but people's standard cruising cost is roughly the same at about that $1,000 per month the guy said he rode Florida on a bicycle, BUT you have to add boat maintenance.
Look again at Judy's spreadsheet where the costs appear much higher than mine... Hers are the same, she just spent more in marinas, flying home and the one off transport around Somalia( I sailed it the year before and advised her not to sail it and thank God they didnt as she would have when the four Americans were shot).
But the "standard" cost is about the same at $1,000 per month food and beer, $1,000 per month saving for boat maintenance, sails etc and $1,000 per month for rich people to buy insurance, medical and fly home. Then you can add another $1,000 for richer people to stay in marinas, or rent cars, or do extensive land travel etc.

But as Boatyardboy explains, why circumnavigate if you don't see anything?


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

So far, 2 votes for under $10,000, including the cost of the boat. By my calculations, that would include 5 sheets of salt treated wood, 1 can of paint, 4,000 floating cans of Vienna Sausage, and a case of rum.


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## cruisingdream (Feb 7, 2007)

Here is the boat










http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1bKnHq3a-W8/SLeVuHmnt7I/AAAAAAAABLA/pVs-hY8zV_8/s1600/JUNK1.jpg


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Omatako said:


> Unless of course you are planning on donating the vessel when your'e done cruising (stand in line - the Amel is mine).


Ooops, BeBe has just been "mutilated"...

Kind of surprising, to see a couple of admitted "energy hogs" (_We never hesitate to use any electrical device, unlike many people we know on boats who curtail their movie viewing or computer time or electric mixer or whatever because they need to save battery power._) sail 2/3 of the way around the world, mostly through the tropics, before they got around to installing some solar panels... Their generator got a heavy workout, being run on average a couple of hours a day whenever they were not in marinas, to meet their electrical demands... Yup, these folks are definitely not at the lower budget end of the spectrum...

While I get the practicality of a stern arch, I sure hope I never have to slap something like this onto the back of a boat of my own 

S/V BeBe: BeBe has been mutilated!!


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Gawd, a true monstrosity. I hope those s.s. cross braces aren't actually meant to provide any structural strength. Most of the metal has been removed to make room for the fancy lettering.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Mutilated???????????? Its an Amel! A potato sack covering the whole boat would make them look better.

Saving money first to buy the cost saving things is good sense.



Mark


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Careful Mark, my wife might hear you. If we were going around again and had one of those big budgets my wife would want an Amel ... Or some fancy cat.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

I shoulda read the question better before I voted. Didn't even pay attention to the "Including the Boat". That adds a whole new dimension to the scale of imponderables
posed by the original question.


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

The poll should not have included the boat.. That's like trying to figure out an equation with 2 variables. Can't happen without more information. Should have been just cruising minus the boat. Because someone might splurge on a boat, and be tight in their cruising costs, on the other hand someone might find a cheaper boat to have more income while cruising.


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

Beth Leonard's book The Voyager's Handbook: The Essential Guide to Blue Water Cruising: Beth Leonard: 9780071437653: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ve%[email protected]@[email protected]@51ve%2BhwCOeL has some really good info on provisioning, and even growing vegetables from seeds. You can't get more frugal than that! Also, how reliant are the voyagers on this site on fishing? Without ice, how long are you able to store your catch?


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

Imagine 3 boats. An old Alberg 30 and brand new TooMuch50 anchor in TropicalCove. The Alberg has ice when they can get it, a small diesel, a couple batteries, and a happy couple. They are living basic but don't have a lot of things to break and what they do have is simple and rugged.
The TooMuch50 has a big diesel, a generator, a watermaker, fridge, freezer, airconditioning, autopilot, radar, SSB, big batteries, big alternators, and a big TV. They have a windlass and NEED it to get their heavy anchor up. They have a bow thruster and need that too. The couple on this boat, unless they are quite technically savvy and quite good in setting the boat up, are likely to show up with a fair portion of that equipment not working and endure a stressful stay in TropicalCove trying to arrange for parts and technicians to fix their stuff before they go onwards.

Then there is the third boat that is somewhere between those two, but the boat never goes anyplace because the skipper is convinced that if he can;t go around the world in a TooMuch50, then going to Bermuda or Europe in a JustRight 40 is not even worth doing


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

After reading the entire thread I realized that my vote (50-75k) was not very informed. I could probably do it in that range (older boat <30feet, mostly rice and fish diet) but some of those entry fees and maintenance costs are definitely higher than I thought. I would still do it for less than 100 grand, no sweat, and LOVED the experience. In reality I will most likely just cruise along the US East Coast and the Caribbean.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

One man's feast is another man's meal.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Well this seems ludicrously expensive. 50K a year? Get real.
15k for the boat. 10k for the refit. 25k for 3 year circum nav. If your sailing a 50' with washing machines and flying to the states for Dr. visits and shipping boats via containers then I suppose 50k a year is your budget. Each there own.
See you in Micronesia.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> Gawd, a true monstrosity. I hope those s.s. cross braces aren't actually meant to provide any structural strength. Most of the metal has been removed to make room for the fancy lettering.


Well, then - how about this one?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Harborless said:


> Well this seems ludicrously expensive. 50K a year? Get real.
> 15k for the boat. 10k for the refit. 25k for 3 year circum nav. If your sailing a 50' with washing machines and flying to the states for Dr. visits and shipping boats via containers then I suppose 50k a year is your budget. Each there own.
> See you in Micronesia.


The posted spreadsheet is on the upper end but 10k isn't gonna get anywhere near what what it costs to refit an old boat. Just the BASIC electronics (radar, chartplotter, SSB, VHF, solar or wind power, depth finder, charts for plotter, spares for alternator, starter, etc.) are going to eat up 10k before even thinking about replacing rigging, sails, rotten cored decks, ground tackle, chain, drag devices, liferaft, etc., etc., etc. I've just done this to my old boat and have spent three times that amount.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

One other thought that I have not seen mentioned anywhere is that the costs of extended cruising do not happen in a linear fashion. Some months you spend a great deal, in others not a penny. When you first start out the boat is (should be!) in great shape so maintenance is low but increases later and where you can actually buy stuff - for us this was St Martin, Grenada, Australia, American Samoa (USPS), and Souh Africa. Sometimes you have high operational costs for entry and other things. Panama was a perfect storm for this with fees, Canal costs, plus a terrific opportunity for major provisioning before heading into the Pacific.

We are now spending a great deal getting ready to leave South Africa but will spend little in the couple of months after we leave with only a few stops (St Helena and Ascension are not famous for their shopping possibilities). I guess what I am saying is that you need to have a stock of money available to both take advantage of opportunities (good, cheap provisioning opportunities)) and problems (we spent $5000 to get my hand put back together at a private hospital in SA. Without speedy and competent care I might lost use of the hand. 

The whole business of paying for cruising is really complicated at many levels. For us, we paid quite a bit for the boat to have a vessel that we could be confident in. We cruise with a moderate lifestyle although take advantage of the opportunities to visit remarkable places, but (and it is a big BUT) we have a significant nest egg if we need it- this also gives us confidence and comfort.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't know this for any type of fact but I suspect that people cruising etc. on the lower end of the budget world don't post on internet forums. Just like people living on land at the lower end of the income scale.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> At $30 per day is $1000 per month. But you only have to maintain a bicycle.
> 
> Mark


Exactly right! And as a luxury motorhome owner I will tell you that the quality of the experience of touring by bicycle is no less than by that had traveling by expensive diesel guzzling motorhome. In fact, in many ways it's better! ( mention that i own one of these RVs only for point of reference. i speak from experience)

Still, few average middle class people can afford a 43 foot diesel pusher motorhome. With list prices in the half million dollar range there is the purchase cost. Then the maintenance, and the cost of operation. Which at 7 to 8 miles per gallon gets expensive fast! The point being, if you are the average person in the USA making the average salary, no amount of saving is going to get you behind the wheel of one of these units. Simply put, the average person doesn't make enough to save enough.

Of course there a lot less expensive ways to tour. Right down to riding a bike or walking. The experience is going to be what you make it regardless of mode.

And, so it goes with sailing. you don't need a six figure boat to circumnavigate. Which is a good thing, because that would leave most people at the dock with their dream. The experience you have is the one you create.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Don0190 said:


> I don't know this for any type of fact but I suspect that people cruising etc. on the lower end of the budget world don't post on internet forums. Just like people living on land at the lower end of the income scale.


I'm not exactly sure how that point, while valid in a different context, is relevant to the original question.

It does, however, somewhat relate to my point that the cost is all over the scale and only the OP can determine where his comfort level falls on that scale.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

killarney_sailor said:


> One other thought that I have not seen mentioned anywhere is that the costs of extended cruising do not happen in a linear fashion. Some months you spend a great deal, in others not a penny. When you first start out the boat is (should be!) in great shape so maintenance is low but increases later and where you can actually buy stuff - for us this was St Martin, Grenada, Australia, American Samoa (USPS), and Souh Africa. Sometimes you have high operational costs for entry and other things. Panama was a perfect storm for this with fees, Canal costs, plus a terrific opportunity for major provisioning before heading into the Pacific.
> 
> We are now spending a great deal getting ready to leave South Africa but will spend little in the couple of months after we leave with only a few stops (St Helena and Ascension are not famous for their shopping possibilities). I guess what I am saying is that you need to have a stock of money available to both take advantage of opportunities (good, cheap provisioning opportunities)) and problems (we spent $5000 to get my hand put back together at a private hospital in SA. Without speedy and competent care I might lost use of the hand.
> 
> The whole business of paying for cruising is really complicated at many levels. For us, we paid quite a bit for the boat to have a vessel that we could be confident in. We cruise with a moderate lifestyle although take advantage of the opportunities to visit remarkable places, but (and it is a big BUT) we have a significant nest egg if we need it- this also gives us confidence and comfort.


Great post!!!! I guess the advantage to crossing vast oceans is while out there, there is no place to pull out your credit card!!!!

I think the key as it pertains to this discussion is you telling us you have a significant nest egg. I'm sure that gives you the peace of mind to do this. To get to this point you had to have the earning power to be able to accumulate the nest egg while at the same time living life as it was happening before your adventure began. That's the part many average earners will have a problem with.

BTW, median household income in the USA is about $50,000. 72% 0f households make $75,000 or less. At that level of income pulling off a high end world cruise, including buying the boat and supporting yourself, while at the same time raising and educating kids, gonna a tough act!!!

Personally, my hat is off to anyone who does this. First for sailing around the world!!!! In my book, truely impressive! But, my hat is also off to those with the financial forethought and financial will power it takes to pull this off. Absolutely, no small thing!


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

TJC45 said:


> Great post!!!! I guess the advantage to crossing vast oceans is while out there, there is no place to pull out your credit card!!!!
> !


Makes one think of the possibilities for floating Starbucks franchises (Timmies for Canadians) along the major cruising routes. Seriously, we spent very little money between the Galapagos and Brisbane (that changed once we got to Oz). Would have liked to do major provisioning in Papeete, incredible supermarket, but very pricey. Also spent virtually nothing between Bali and South Africa but made up for it in SA.

One other thought comes to mind. Not many people do a RTW. With everyone going via SA these days it is easier to estimate. Last year I would be surprised if it was even 100 boats from what we saw. Most were the retired folks in boats worth $50k to a couple million (what is an Oyster 63ish going for these days). A small minority were in boats less than $25k after upgrades. Almost all were European with most from Sweden. Typically these were couples who had very good jobs and saved like crazy to allow them to take off for a fixed, typically three year cruise. I suspect it is easier to accomplish this in the Swedish economy than in the US. We had an interesting BBQ in SA where everyone (4 other boats) was less than 35 other than us. All had to hurry home (2 Swedish, 1 American, 1 Italian) because they were almost out of money. One Swedish kid was bemoaning the fact that his thirtieth birthday was coming soon - not bad for having almost sailed around the world, having a nice, very old HR precursor, and good job skills - give him a pile of steel wool and could knit you an engine.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

smurphny said:


> The posted spreadsheet is on the upper end but 10k isn't gonna get anywhere near what what it costs to refit an old boat. Just the BASIC electronics (radar, chartplotter, SSB, VHF, solar or wind power, depth finder, charts for plotter, spares for alternator, starter, etc.) are going to eat up 10k before even thinking about replacing rigging, sails, rotten cored decks, ground tackle, chain, drag devices, liferaft, etc., etc., etc. I've just done this to my old boat and have spent three times that amount.


Yep, me too, and I sailed my boat across the Pacific before I even started the refit.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

smurphny said:


> The posted spreadsheet is on the upper end but 10k isn't gonna get anywhere near what what it costs to refit an old boat. Just the BASIC electronics (radar, chartplotter, SSB, VHF, solar or wind power, depth finder, charts for plotter, spares for alternator, starter, etc.) are going to eat up 10k before even thinking about replacing rigging, sails, rotten cored decks, ground tackle, chain, drag devices, liferaft, etc., etc., etc. I've just done this to my old boat and have spent three times that amount.


I don't know, you did just list about 4 pieces of electronics that are often not present on cruising boats. Slocum didn't have them, that's for sure. 

Edit, now that I think about it, Aebi and others didn't have many of those either.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

wind_magic said:


> I don't know, you did just list about 4 pieces of electronics that are often not present on cruising boats. Slocum didn't have them, that's for sure.
> 
> Edit, now that I think about it, Aebi and others didn't have many of those either.


Those are minimum essentials (at least to me) to go anywhere offshore. Makes you realize the absolutely heroic efforts of guys like Slocum. His descriptions of getting around Cape Horn are mind boggling. Savages/pirates, unknown reefs, gales coming down from the mountains...I think lady luck was on his side (along with his rifle He also had no handy Yanmar!


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

smurphny said:


> Those are minimum essentials (at least to me)


And like so many have said, I think that's the key to the whole thing. It's whatever you feel is necessary for you. There are a lot of people here that have to have hot and cold running water on a boat to be happy, air conditioning at the dock, dinghy davits, bow thrusters, and all the rest too, but not everybody has to have all of that stuff.

My limited experience with this is that people tend to let the price of the boat creep up more and more the longer they stay attached to the dock (that is a general observation, not directed at smurphny).


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

There are people, adventurers, who work, save like crazy and then take off for a few years to follow the dream. These are mostly single people. Or, couples who met while out on their dream cruise, hike etc. 

This really doesn't work in the U.S. job market. At least any longer. Regardless of qualifications getting back into the work force is problematic for those who have dropped out. Job applications are now handled through online resume. The computer program automatically weeds out anyone with a long stretch of unemployment. While circumnavigating the world wouldn't eliminate you from consideration in a live interview, the computer doesn't ask the reason why no job over the past two three years. it is following a filtering program that assumes anyone out of the workforce for that period has issues. While this isn't always the case it is in much of the jobs not so easy to get category. That is, the high paying career type positions. 

As well, even if you can get thru the computer screen to a live interview you are competing with people whose skills are not rusty. 

Sabaticals work well for professions that allow them. Kinda cool to drop out from that teaching position for a while and knock some stuff off the bucket list. For the rest of us, think long and hard! I've worked 30 years to build my business. If I left for six months, let alone 3 years, there would be no business to come back to.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

My observations are based on what I see on boats that are far from home and from talking to people that are walking the walk. What Slocum or Aebi or anyone else had is basically irrelevant. If they were doing it today, chances are they souls use modern technology - and I say this as someone who started sailing offshore only with a sextant, RDF, and VHF.

From my perspective, your mileage may differ:

- radar is on 95% of boats. If you are doing a cocoanut rtw you could do without it. For this trip I would prefer AIS

- chartplotter (or laptop charting) is on virtually 100% of boats, must be someone not using this but haven't met them; convenient and saves vast sums compared to paper charts

- VHF -universal, but quite inexpensive,required for entry (and exit) to many commercial harbours

- SSB - probably on 90% of boats, a good shortwave receiver on virtually all. Approaching the South African coast without access to shortwave weather broadcasts would be foolhardy at best and fatal at worst. With SSB it is fairly routine. BTW, the dangers from the Agulhas Current extend beyond the reach of VHF.

- watermaker - probably 75% of boats; rarely an absolute necessity but adds to the quality of life (not talking about hot showers in particular, more about not having to worry about a) quantity of water and b) quality - often times shore water cannot be trusted.

- solar/wind - more than 95% have one or both, the rest run gensets, often twice a day.

- genset - probably 80% of boats, virtually 100% on boats over 40 feet which is to say most boats
- inboard engines - all except one guy on an ancient Bristol 27 even though Slocum did without


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

TJC speaks an unfortunate truth. Still having accepted that truth and acted on it many of us old farts are starting out to complete our dreams. This thread has been fascinating with many of the resources listed and linked extremely helpful to me. But to follow TJCs line of thinking if you start you voyaging after your career your tolerance for prolonged discomfort is lower and your physical capabilities are somewhat degraded. Whereas in the past I would be happy to be railmeat- it's an activity that no longer appeals. Similarly cruising I and my bride want easier systems and more comfort. This implies a bigger boat with more complexities both to purchase and maintain. Expense goes up. Before buying my "Last Boat" I went through each thing on the boat and what I expected it to cost year 1,5 and 10.
Averaged expenses and went to financial advisor. He developed spread sheets for his expections of our expenses using real numbers from tax returns and checkbooks. Each family or couple will be different. Best you can say is you can try to give a high and a low for expenses. I expect to have to adjust those estimates as time goes on. 
Another point is when faced with the realities of "doing the clock" many ( self included) decide not to do it. For me a circumnavigation of the North Atlantic with a sortie into the north med followed by a circumnavigation of the South Pacific holds more interest. I'll happily leave the capes and pirates to others.


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## ronspiker (Jun 27, 2001)

The biggest variable unless you go outside the norm on a boat purchase is going to be what you do when you are not moving from one location to another. Do you stay at a marina, what do you eat, what site seeing do you do, it's the extracurricular non boat activities that add up quick. Some people are comfortable at anchor catching fish, others have to tie up to a slip in a marina and eat lobster at a 5 star restaurant with bottles of champagne.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> From my perspective, your mileage may differ:
> 
> - radar is on 95% of boats.
> 
> ...


Just did a quick look at 15 closest boats to me, at a nchor in Grenada.
R adar 8/16 = 50% (higher than what I would have thought.)
C hartplotter 100%
V HF 100%
S SB 20% - not that I know for sure. I can only see 1 out of the 15 with HF antenna/split backstay.
W atermaker 40% I doubt more, but 40% is pretty high. Certainly for the expensive boats above $200k it would be close to 75%
Solar/Wind 100% 5 out of 15 have wind. the rest solar some both.
Genset, as in a dedicated Genset 20% that includes Honda portables.
Inboard Engines 100% - unless they are being fixed! 

I do think it would be a good exercise for everyone to pull the b inoculars out in a cruising anchorage and compare notes.

Mark
PS Cut their ads out  damn they annoy me in the text of posts


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Mark, your numbers make sense. For rtw, a few more goodies.


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## svShearwater (Apr 1, 2013)

I voted the 100k-199k cuz I'm not aware of a seaworthy boat much under $100k that is fast enough to suit my interests, but that's just me. Different priorities... If you are going to the trouble of sailing all-the-way-around-the-world, personally, the quality of the transportation device would rank, way, way, up on my list of important things.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

outbound said:


> But to follow TJCs line of thinking if you start you voyaging after your career your tolerance for prolonged discomfort is lower and your physical capabilities are somewhat degraded. Whereas in the past I would be happy to be railmeat- it's an activity that no longer appeals. Similarly cruising I and my bride want easier systems and more comfort. This implies a bigger boat with more complexities both to purchase and maintain. Expense goes up.


Further to this, if one subscribes to the concept that one's income continues to grow as you get older, the older folks like me have to give up way bigger levels of income to go sailing. We have children of friends currently sailing in the Pacific and they are in their late 20's. They gave up way less in terms of income that I will.



outbound said:


> Another point is when faced with the realities of "doing the clock" many ( self included) decide not to do it.


The reality of "doing the clock" is that with all the weather systems going in one direction no matter where you are on the planet, circumnavigations reach a point of no return - where you can't turn around and go home. If you have passed that point you have to go all the way around, whether you're enjoying it or not. Or you ditch the boat and fly home and so end the whole boat ownership thing. One thing is for sure, when you're trying to sell a boat under pressure in a foreign country, you're gonna come seriously second in any price negotiations.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

The poll stats are beginning to look correct now: 50% say $100,000 to $300,000 for a 3 year circumnavigation INCLUDING price of a boat.

Yes, there are a fair few who say they can do it for less, some more, but whatever silly word a statistician would use for the big blob in the middle is now 50%.

It would be nice to find the number from people who have actually done it. (and what years so we can adjust for inflation)


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Om makes some great points. My thinking remains
You make one pass.
The money just needs to last as long as you.
Once you decide you need to do this the time is now..set a date and work to leave on that date. So far the part I didn't realize would be so hard is disengaging from land life issues. The boat issues have been easier.


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

Ditto what Mark said- the best poll would be from previous successful circumnavigators. Electronics era, and non-sponsored.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I relate to the idea of cruising for three straight years. I never really grasped why circumnavigating was necessary, beyond the sense of accomplishment that one has sailed around the globe. It certainly give one creds. 

However, if one's purpose is to travel, explore, witness other cultures, etc, it just isn't necessary to circumnavigate at all. Perhaps this is beyond the scope of this thread, but it could impact cost. Crossing an ocean requires a different boat and equipment than a three year coastal cruise.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

One thing I discovered in my travels was that EU/Commonwealth citizens were far more foot loose than Americans. They had their basic health care and retirement more or less covered. Here in the modern USA you fall off the career track, aren't contributing to the IRA/401K, aren't getting social security credit for working, off the company health insurance, etc. etc. and life can look pretty  and that was before the current problems where finding your way back into the workforce is not a given!

OTOH things have never been better for a young person or couple in some ways. Used boats have NEVER been cheaper. I am sure some searching and 10-20K$ will get you a useable boat and in many ways equipment can be much cheaper now. Most people literally have more nav power in the phone they already own then a commercial ship had a few decades ago. With the decline in the used boating market all kinds of used equipment can be found cheap by a good scrounger. Health insurance issues are usually easier to deal with when young and healthy. The one problem I see is that the idea of low budget adventurers being people to look up to seems to not be the case in many parts of the world. I get the impression that with the advent of world cruising as a rich old person activity instead of a young broke person activity, many places see a boat as an endless source of $$$$ and the ones that can't pay up are not wanted


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

smurphny said:


> The posted spreadsheet is on the upper end but 10k isn't gonna get anywhere near what what it costs to refit an old boat. Just the BASIC electronics (radar, chartplotter, SSB, VHF, solar or wind power, depth finder, charts for plotter, spares for alternator, starter, etc.) are going to eat up 10k before even thinking about replacing rigging, sails, rotten cored decks, ground tackle, chain, drag devices, liferaft, etc., etc., etc. I've just done this to my old boat and have spent three times that amount.


In this market 15k will buy a deccent shape 30ish foot sailboat. I refitted a complete lemon for 12k including aall electrical,, standing and running rigging plus many many more things. I would not have a water maker, microwave, and many of the latest gadgets. I practice with my sextant and use paralell rulers and dividers. I use a knot stick and an old analog wind guage good up to 69 knots. Again each there own..

I just dont want the frugal mariner to feel like there is no point in trying unless you have 50k a year. If your willing and able, you can cruise for very cheap in a safe seaworthy boat while still enjoying your destinations with immense pleasure via backpacking, bike riding, and dive bars and bare beaches.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> However, if one's purpose is to travel, explore, witness other cultures, etc, it just isn't necessary to circumnavigate at all. .


I agree.
But if you want to do more than just one ocean then you 'must' circumnavigate (Unless you want to sell your boat in some foreign country; or buy in a foreign country)

For example: If I am from the USA and start in New York and do the Atlantic and want to do the WHOLE south Pacific (not just Panama and Mexico) then I end up in Australia with a 6,500 NM UPWIND sail back to Panama and 2,000 back to NYC. So its easier to do Asia and Africa and back around that way with the wind up my bum.

Its the same in any other ocean. If you want more than one ocean then circumnavigating is the 'only' way to go.

Interesting what you said about "the sense of accomplishment that one has sailed around the globe. It certainly give one creds."
The sense of accomplishment, for me, wasnt high till I did the last 10,000 miles solo. even then it was treated as ho-hum but other sailors_ unless _they were American. Americans seem to think its a big deal.
It does give you 'cred'! It stops wankers coming up to you and saying "You shouldn't have your snubber like that!" I can say: "Well, on my first circumnavigation...."  that shuts the mugs up! 

I dont really agree with the thought that a circumnavigating boat needs to be hugely different from other crruising boats... unless we are talking about weekend sailers that pop up and down the Chesapeake. The one error I think people who _set out _to do a tropical circumnavigation do is over think (or read too many forums) and buy a too old, and too solid, too traditional, too full keel, too poorly ventilated, too 'sea kindly' old heap of old style crap just because they think its a blue water boat.

For 30,000 nms they are bound down to a stupid decision made from reading horror stories on forums. They end up driving a maintenance nightmare, their wives walk off and the wallet escapes. Retirement descends into a living hell where some guy hung himself by the neck off his mast because he could afford to go on, couldn't sell the boat and couldn't afford to go back. (The marina, which was free at the time, towed his boat out, anchored it on the far side of the bay and stole his dinghy and OB as the new marina work boat.)

The horror stories are simply stories. The real horror comes to those that read them and believe them.

One horror story in the making is these threads where they say you can live circumnavigating for 3 years on $10,000. I'm sorry but you can't. I can't. No one can.

If I write a book I'm gunna call it: *Circumnavigation: It was Nice. Nothing Bad Happened.* 

But will that sell? 

I do believe in "Go Now"; I do believe it can be done on a tight budget. I do believe we can die tomorrow so we must make use of today. There is a whole world to see and seeing it will educate us more and better than anything else in the world.
I do NOT believe horror stories. I dont believe in floating containers. One doesn't need 1 inch think fiberglass. They didnt make them better in the old days. We make them better now.

But mostly I believe if people did not read the horror stories more people would be willing to go further than the Bahamas from the USA; go further from the Med from Europe; go further than the Whitsundays from Australia.

The world _is_ our oyster and I hate people stealing clichés! 

Mark


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Harborless said:


> Well this seems ludicrously expensive. 50K a year? Get real.
> 15k for the boat. 10k for the refit. 25k for 3 year circum nav. If your sailing a 50' with washing machines and flying to the states for Dr. visits and shipping boats via containers then I suppose 50k a year is your budget. Each there own.
> See you in Micronesia.


That does seem high. I went on a cruise ship about ten years ago and they had a price where you could live on the ship year round. The minimum price was only like $73,000 a year for that.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I agree with Mark about the inherent logic of a circumnavigation. One thing just leads to another and before you know it you are back to where you started. People talk about Atlantic circles and Pacific circles but I would not be at all impressed with the Japan to North America leg of a Pacific circle (Atlantic looks nicer). That is a long way, cool, wet and potentially stormy.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Cred? I agree that a circumnavigation gives you experience. But cred? Not so much. Not that it doesn't give you cred. It's just not automatic. While I'm impressed by people who accomplish such feats, it is more for the one minded commitment it takes to get it done rather than any skill or knowledge that comes in to play. I am impressed by circumnavigators the same way i am impressed by marathon runners. Or, bike tourist that ride from Virginia Beach to Redondo Beach. Do that, and yeah ya got me, I'm impressed! Am I going to listen to you when you tell me how to load my bike for the next tour? Maybe, maybe not.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

I am impressed by *some* of them. Some seem to have blundered their way around surviving on blind luck. Some of their boats I would love to have and some I would not take anyplace I couldn't swim home from.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I dont really agree with the thought that a circumnavigating boat needs to be hugely different from other crruising boats... unless we are talking about weekend sailers that pop up and down the Chesapeake. *The one error I think people who set out to do a tropical circumnavigation do is over think (or read too many forums) and buy a too old, and too solid, too traditional, too full keel, too poorly ventilated, too 'sea kindly' old heap of old style crap just because they think its a blue water boat.*


Isn't this the model that is followed on all cruising forums? And isn't it normally driven by people with some boat not up to even up to doing a long coastal cruise, but who somehow know what is needed to go "bluewater", because they read it in a old boat or forum?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> I agree with Mark about the inherent logic of a circumnavigation. One thing just leads to another and before you know it you are back to where you started. People talk about Atlantic circles and Pacific circles but I would not be at all impressed with the Japan to North America leg of a Pacific circle (Atlantic looks nicer). That is a long way, cool, wet and potentially stormy.


That appears to be changing, actually, with more cruisers treating the Pacific as a _destination_ in itself, and not necessarily part of a Milk Run circumnavigation... These numbers and the trends they indicate from Jimmy Cornell are from a couple of years ago, with with the subsequent 'closure' of the Red Sea route to most, have perhaps even increased in the interim:



> Also, compared to the past, when many boats in the South Pacific continued on a circumnavigation, close to half of the North American boats and others now appear to view the Pacific as the destination, and therefore take time to explore the islands.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...












A Pacific circle with a return to the north is certainly not a trip for everybody, but for sailors like Alvah and Diana Simon, it must have been an incredible voyage...

Where Might & Majesty Meet | Cruising World


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> North American boats now turn north from Tahiti


My point is that Tahiti is not covering the whole of the Pacific, a mere half of it (3,300nms from galapagos as opposed to 6,600 Gal to Australia)

Its a very tough cookie to go against the trades to Tahiti from NZ or AUS. Jimmy Cornel when he did it 20 years or more ago was much younger, as were Alvah and Diana Simon, if they have done it at all, against the trades.

The last over 65 to have done it and enjoyed it was Francis Chichester and he was a grumpy old bum at the beginning  By jingo, by crikey, you'd wanna be a fit retiree!

And to those who say they offer no respect to people who do circumnavigate: I say that few would be wishing for your, or anybodys respect. Thats probably what long range cruising gives you  However, if Jons figures are correct that theres only 40 yachts per year coming from the USA to Tahiti, that means there will be quite few, very few who succeed in completing a circumnavigation prior to the closing of the red sea, and very much fewer now.

No oone could tell, of course, but some say there have been more to summit Mt Everest than completed a circumnavigation. I know the assents have been coming thich and fast and that 200 people per day summit Everest in the correct months - no matter the number very few cruisers would say our achievement stacks up to that mountain.

I certainly have never asked for respect from anyone for anything, and would never expect it for a leisure activity like sailing under a cover of beer, but it certainly can stop Key West Admirals from pontificating 

Mark


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Mark, I understand that about 400 people a year summit Everest, there is a bit of an industry involved now. If my estimate of 100 boats passing South Africa a year is close then about 200 people a year do a circumnavigation if we assume the the number of singlehanders more or less balances the number of boats with more than two people since no one is going through the Red Sea these days.


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## HaleyF (Jun 23, 2013)

This thread is great. My man and I started the budgeting process for a multi-year trip about 6 months ago. Right now our goal for the end of next year is 70k in the bank. At that point we'll start looking at boats and probably spend the following year both saving and outfitting while still working. My current "expectation" (and I use that word extremely loosely haha) of the cost of the boat is around 50k for something in the 35-40 ft range, older, but still tough. The plan in the meantime is to foster some of our side projects into passive sources of income while we're gone, and if all else fails, make some stops and do some freelance work en route. 

I am 28 and he is 31 and we're lucky enough to have well paying jobs and a rent controlled apartment in New York City.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Did someone say they offer no respect to circumnavigators? I know i said that cred isn't given automatically. There is a difference. It is measuring each person individually. 

Before migraine headaches ended my flying carreer way to prematurely I had the opportunity to fly with a lot of pilots. And, i gotta tell ya, there were guys i wouldn't want to fly with again! They had the experience, the big time resume, and all the tickets. Yeah, on paper they looked great. And a few of these guys did end up killing themselves in airplanes. Unfortunately, some took other people with them. Sad, but so predictable that myself and a couple friends saw it coming years before it finally happened. So when I say the resume of accomplishment doesn't necessarily buy you cred, this is where I'm coming from.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Wish Steve (Hannah 2) would chime in.respect his opinion. Would also point out marked variance in expense if you are doing this balls to the wall or spending time in each landfall experiencing the culture and enjoying the sights. We have planned in periods of the boat being on the hard and coming home which adds expense as well.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

HaleyF said:


> This thread is great. My man and I started the budgeting process for a multi-year trip about 6 months ago. Right now our goal for the end of next year is 70k in the bank. At that point we'll start looking at boats and probably spend the following year both saving and outfitting while still working. My current "expectation" (and I use that word extremely loosely haha) of the cost of the boat is around 50k for something in the 35-40 ft range, older, but still tough. The plan in the meantime is to foster some of our side projects into passive sources of income while we're gone, and if all else fails, make some stops and do some freelance work en route.
> 
> I am 28 and he is 31 and we're lucky enough to have well paying jobs and a rent controlled apartment in New York City.


Haley is the freelance work stuff you do online? That is possible but it is hard and often illegal to work in most countries. There are times when you can work while you wait for the next cruising season, eg in NZ or Oz while the cyclone season happens.


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## HaleyF (Jun 23, 2013)

killarney_sailor said:


> Haley is the freelance work stuff you do online? That is possible but it is hard and often illegal to work in most countries. There are times when you can work while you wait for the next cruising season, eg in NZ or Oz while the cyclone season happens.


Yeah I work in app/web design. Always a steady stream of available freelance and contract work. I'm actually a Canadian citizen so setting up in NZ/Australia as well as most EU countries for a couple months is doable for me.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

A "cheap" boat sailing to the Marquesas form "latitude 38"

Ichiban — Columbia 34 Mk II
Justin Jenkins and Anna Wiley
Big Cruise on a Small Budget
(San Diego)

I've never felt such a great sense of accomplishment as after making the 32-day, 3,000-mile passage from San Diego to Controller Bay, Nuku Hiva, with my girlfriend Anna Wiley. It was both the scariest thing I've ever done and the most rewarding. It feels as though we've ascended to the top of the highest nautical mountain.

Anna and I are not like most cruisers. We're both just 30 years old and don't have much money. But we didn't see much of a future for ourselves in the United States right now, so we decided to buy the best boat we could with our limited funds and take off.

The boat turned out to be a surprisingly spacious Columbia 34 Mk II, which we got for just $2,000. The small outboard wasn't going to cut it as an auxiliary in the South Pacific, so I bought and installed a rebuilt Atomic 4. I know a gas engine isn't ideal for cruising, but it was what we could afford. Ichiban also needed sails, so I bought a used main and a used jib for $100 each. Naturally the boat needed lots of other work, which took up most of my time for the last year.

Our original plan was to start by cruising Mexico, but we weren't ready to leave in time for the season. So when we didn't leave San Diego until May 11, our destination became the Marquesas in the South Pacific rather than Mexico. After all the repairs and provisioning, our cruising kitty was down to just $400. But it was time to walk the walk, so we left.

Other than getting hit by 30 knots of wind near Guadalupe Island, and getting thrashed in the doldrums, our crossing was surprisingly uneventful. We had a solid 15 knots on the quarter until we hit the doldrums at about 10°N. It was pretty squally in the ITCZ, with wind from five to 30 knots, and strong currents. We never knew which way the wind or current would come from, and it was like being in a washing machine. It took us six days to get down to 4°N, which is where we finally escaped the ITCZ.

The doldrums was the most nerve-wracking part of the trip. One night the wind died and the current pushed us 20 miles back. That wasn't fun. But then the southeast trades filled in and carried us to Nuku Hiva's Controller Bay at a steady five knots.

Ichiban handled very well during the long crossing and, thank God, nothing broke. We didn't have a spinnaker pole, so we recently made one out of bamboo.

As soon as we arrived, we began to meet lots of cruisers. They've been wonderful about sharing their knowledge of sailing and cruising. What a great bunch of people! Igor and Louise, our new cruising friends from Australia, just had their first baby pop out last night. We're about to go to the local hospital to see what she looks like.

Starting out with such a small cruising kitty, we were lucky to find some jobs — repairing sails and cleaning boats — almost right away. As a result, we were able to nearly double the size of our kitty. We've also been playing a lot of music, and have received quite a bit of free fruit from our gracious listeners.

The weekends here have been filled with the sounds of Marquesan drums, the sight of Polynesians dancing, and the taste of Hinano beer.

We're all checked in with the Gendarmerie, which has taken a load off our minds. But as we'd like to spend more time exploring French Polynesia, we're hoping to get a one-year extension to our visas.

Anna and I are so glad that we went cruising. What a life it is! We're hoping to encourage other young folks with not so much money to join us in this adventurous lifestyle.

— justin 07/31/2013


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## AKscooter (Jan 18, 2009)

Damn shame people are gonna miss out on the world because their icemaker broke down......oh well........


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

AKscooter said:


> Damn shame people are gonna miss out on the world because their icemaker broke down......oh well........


Who needs apps or ice makers when you can have this:

*"The weekends here have been filled with the sounds of Marquesan drums, the sight of Polynesians dancing, and the taste of Hinano beer."
*


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I plan to keep the day job a bit longer and see the world, at least some of it, with a functioning ice maker.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I dont really agree with the thought that a circumnavigating boat needs to be hugely different from other crruising boats... unless we are talking about weekend sailers that pop up and down the Chesapeake. The one error I think people who _set out _to do a tropical circumnavigation do is over think (or read too many forums) and buy a too old, and too solid, too traditional, too full keel, too poorly ventilated, too 'sea kindly' old heap of old style crap just because they think its a blue water boat.
> 
> One horror story in the making is these threads where they say you can live circumnavigating for 3 years on $10,000. I'm sorry but you can't. I can't. No one can.
> 
> ...


Ironically one of the more popular boats used for popping up and down the Chesapeake are Beneteaus.

But even those unsuitable( in your opinion) Chesapeake cruisin Benes can get pricey. Northward of 150k once you get above the mid 30 foot versions. Geez even their new 21 footer is closing in on 100k once it's all optioned up. And the Beneteaus are built at about the same quality and price point as the other popular Chessie cruisers, Catalina and Hunter.

So, if an unsuitable Chesapeake Bay cruiser is going to set someone back at least six figures to buy, how much more would a suitable boat cost? How does that work with a "tight budget?"

AS for go now? Go now sounds great! That works for trust fund babies and family scions. Maybe a few business guys who decide to give it up early. All good for these folks. Many of these types are my clients. They have no need to look at the price tag of anything they buy or anything they do. And, if they decide to take a 5 year or longer time out to sail around the world their life of financial independence will be waiting for them when they return. I wish them nothing but the best. That's not how it goes for the average person of average financial means. Things would be not so good after blowing the life's savings on a round the world cruise.

Of course there is pan handling your way around the world for those who just want to go without money and without a plan


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

Best way is to be young and think nothing of showing up in a foreign country with $400 to your name and not mind working under-the-table jobs to get more money. I am sadly too old for that kind of adventure now and the danger level would be way too high - my wife would f-n kill me


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## LakeMi (Aug 29, 2013)

If I didn't have kids I think that it would be one hell of a good way to spend a few years. I was to wound up in trying to get a good job and buying a house that things like this never crossed my mind. Wish they had. I might of had some nice stories to tell. No one wants to here about buying new living room furniture and painting. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Sailing around the world at age 18 didn't occur to some of us because, at the time, we were fighting a war with Vietnam. Sailing around the world wasn't on the menu of draft deferments. We went to school and when our number came up, we went to war. of course, some of us volunteered. 

Whether it's sailing around the world or hiking the AT, there are trade offs in life to be made. I don't look at my kids and think, I wish I did something else with my life. I wouldn't trade a day with them for anything. I'm sure that speaks for everyone here. So, we are left with the old fashioned way of getting it done - earn our way there. For some of us that will work, some it won't, and for most, they could care less. Sailing around the world, or for that matter, further than the horizon, just not on the bucket list.


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