# Ketch vs Sloop?



## bobmcd (Feb 21, 2008)

I am looking at two 32 footers: Fuji 32 ketch and Aries 32 sloop. LOA are similar: 31'6" vs 31'10". LWL are 24'9" vs 26'. Beams: 9'10" vs 9'6". Drafts: 3'8" vs 5'. Dspl: 13,115 lb vs 15,000 lb . Ballast: 4635 lb vs 5000 lb. Sail areas are same: 470 sf. Hull designs are quite different: Fuji, designed by John Alden, has sharper clipper bow and cutaway forefoot on keel with full stern and wide transom. Aries, designed by Thomas Gillmer has Colin Archer form with full length full keel and canoe stern. Our intended sailing area is the SF Bay with occasional jaunts up and down the coast. No long distance passages in the immediate future. I have never sailed a ketch but don't see learning to handle three sails a big challenge. Any comments on these two designs and/or these particular boats will be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Bob


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Bob,

In this size range there's almost no good reason to ketch- or yawl-rig a boat. Unless you have a particularly low bridge to get under, or some other infirmity that requires small sails. Sure it was done a fair bit in earlier times, even extending into the early fibreglass era, but there are good reasons you don't see it done anymore on boats in this size range.

Generally with modern sail handling conveniences (furlers, self tailing winches, etc) the larger relative sail sizes on a sloop of this size are still easily managed. Also, mizzen masts and sail handling tend to intrude on the cockpit area in undesirable ways. Add to that the extra cost associated with equipping and maintaining two masts and their rigs, and most folks prefer the sloop or cutter.

As boats get larger, a better argument can be made in favor of ketch rigs for keeping bridge clearances lower and simplifying sailhandling.


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## rennisaint (Oct 25, 2007)

I mostly agree with John, much to my chagrin, you really don't need smaller sails on a 32 foot boat unless you are getting serious about single-handing in bad conditions. Also, on a 32 foot boat the mizzen boom will probably interfere substantially with the cockpit space. However, ketch's are IMHO way prettier boats...but the aries is a nice looking boat also... I guess I'd sail them both and see which you like more.

Hope that confuses you!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I like ketches a lot, having a friend with one, and I think they've been overlooked as a good cruising design for older couples in the last 25 years or so, but a 32 foot ketch is just a designer's indulgence or folly if you wish. The deck will be tight, having so much rigging about, and there's little advantage in sail area or management as even a five-foot tall woman can tackle a no. 1 of a boat with a 15 foot J measurement.

Ketches make sense from above 38-40 feet up, in my opinion.

On the other hand, if it's above reaching slowly back and forth around an inland waterway, why not?


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## BlueWaterMD (Oct 19, 2006)

But the Fuji Ketch is just sooooo beautiful!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Neither are especially good sailing boats, nor would either be a boat that I would consider for the changeable conditions that are typically found cruising on San Francisco Bay. I also agree with the above posts which indicate that a ketch rig makes very little sense on a boat under about 40 feet. 

The following is a taken from a draft that I had written for another venue, but it does discuss the basics of various rigs. 

_The next topic in our ongoing discussion on selecting the ideal boat is rigs. Like most of the topics to date, there is no single universally 'right answer' when it comes to the topic of rigs. Boats are designed as systems and each of the various rig types have their purpose and are best suited to particular hull types, and applications. The quality of the design is also important as a poorly designed rig of any type can make for a miserable sailing vessel that is hard on the crew and the boat alike. _


_Cutter and Sloop rig_

_These are the most common rigs being produced today. In current usage these terms are applied quite loosely as compared to their more traditional definitions. Traditionally the sloop rig was a rig with a single mast located forward of 50% of the length of the sailplan. In this traditional definition a sloop could have multiple jibs. _

_Cutters had a rig with a single mast located 50% of the length of the sailplan or further aft, multiple headsails and in older definitions, a reefing bowsprit (a bowsprit that could be withdrawn in heavy going). Somewhere in the 1950's or 1960's there was a shift in these definitions such that a sloop only flew one headsail and a cutter had multiple headsails and mast position became irrelevant. For the sake of this discussion I assume we are discussing the modern definition of a sloop and a cutter._

_Historically, when sail handling hardware was primitive and sails were far more stretchy than they are today, the smaller headsails and mainsail of a traditional cutter were easier to handle and with less sail stretch, allowed earlier cutters to be more weatherly (sail closer to the wind) than the sloops of the day. With the invention of lower stretch sailcloth and geared winches, cutters quickly lost their earlier advantage. _

_Today sloops are generally closer winded and easier to handle. Their smaller jibs and larger mainsail sailplan are easier to power up and down. Without a jibstay to drag the Genoa across, sloops are generally easier to tack. With less hardware sloops are less expensive to build. _

_Sloops come in a couple varieties, masthead and fractional. In a masthead rig the forestay and jib originates at the masthead. In a fractional rig, the forestay originates some fraction of the mast height down from the masthead. Historically, sloops were traditionally fractionally rigged. Fractional rigs tend to give the most drive per square foot of sail area. Their smaller jibs are easier to tack and they reef down to a snug masthead rig. Fractional rigs place a lower stress on their hulls and often get by with lighter rigging and hardware for an equal structural safety margin. Today, fractional rigs are often proportioned so that they do not need headsails that overlap the shrouds making them even easier to sail. One of the major advantages of a fractional rig is the ability, especially when combined with a flexible mast, to use the backstay to control mast bend and sail shape. Increasing backstay tension does a lot of things on a fractional rig: it tensions the forestay which in turn flattens the jib. Increasing backstay tension induces controlled mast bend, which flattens the mainsail and opens the leech of the sail. This allows quick depowering as the wind increases and so allows a fractional rig to sail in a wider wind speed range without reefing, or making a headsail change than a masthead rig, although arguably requiring a bit more sail trimming skills. _

_While fractional rigs used to require running backstays, better materials and design approaches have pretty much eliminated the need for running backstays. That said, fractional rigs intended for offshore use, will often have running backstays that are only rigged in heavy weather once the mainsail has been reefed. The geometry of these running backstays typically allows the boat to be tacked without tacking the running backstays. _

_Masthead rigs came into popularity in the 1950's primarily in response to racing rating rules that under-penalized overlapping jibs (genoas) and spinnakers and so promoted bigger headsails. Masthead sloops tend to be simpler rigs to build and adjust. They tend to be more dependent on large headsails and so are harder to tack and also require a larger headsail inventory if performance is important. Mast bend is harder to control and so bigger masthead rigs will often have a babystay that can be tensioned to prevent pumping and induce mast bend in the same way as a fractional rig does. Dragging a Genoa over the babystay makes tacking a bit more difficult and slower. While roller furling allows a wider wind range for a given Genoa, there is a real limit (typically cited 10% to 15%) to how much a Genoa can be roller furled and still maintain a safely flat shape. As a result, masthead rigged boats generally require larger sail inventories._

_Cutters, which had pretty much dropped out of popularity during a period from right after the end of WWII until the early 1970's, came back into popularity with a vengeance in the early 1970's as an offshore cruising rig. In theory, the presence of multiple jibs allows the forestaysail to be dropped or completely furled, and when combined with a reefed mainsail, and the full staysail, results in a very compact heavy weather rig (similar to the proportions of a fractional rigged sloop with a reef in the mainsail). As a result the cutter rig is often cited as the ideal offshore rig. While that is the theory, it rarely works out that the staysail is properly proportioned, (either too small for normal sailing needs and for the lower end of the high wind range (say 20-30 knots) or too large for higher windspeeds) and made of a sail cloth that makes sense as a heavy weather sail but which is too heavy for day to day sailing in more moderate conditions or out of a sail cloth too light for heavy going. Also when these sails are proportioned small enough to be used as heavy weather sails, these rigs will often develop a lot of weather helm when being sailed in winds that are too slow to use a double reefed mainsail. Like fractional rigs, cutter rigs intended for offshore use, will often have running backstays that are only rigged in heavy weather once the mainsail has been reefed. Unlike the fractional rig, when the running backstays are deployed, the geometry of these running backstays typically require that the running backstays be tacked whenever the boat is tacked. _

_Cutters make a less successful rig for coastal sailing. Generally, because of their offshore intent, cutters tend to have snug rigs that depend on larger Genoas for light air performance. Tacking these large Genoas through the narrow slot between the jibstay and forestay is a much harder operation than tacking a sloop. As a result many of today's cutters have a removable jibstay that can be rigged in heavier winds. This somewhat reduces the advantage of a cutter rig (i.e. having a permanently rigged and ready to fly small, heavy weather jib). _

_Cutters these days generally do not point as close to the wind as similar sized sloops. Because of the need to keep the slots of both headsails open enough to permit good airflow, the headsails on a cutter cannot be sheeted as tightly as the jib on a sloop without choking off the airflow in the slot. Since cutters are generally associated with the less efficient underbodies that are typical of offshore boats this is less of a problem that it might sound. Cutters also give away some performance on deep broad reaches and when heading downwind because the Genoa acts in the bad air of the staysail. _

_Yawls and Ketches:_

_As I said at the start of this discussion, boats are systems and when it comes to one size fits all answers, there is no single right answer when it comes to yawls and ketches either. A Yawl is a rig with two masts and the after mast (the mast that is further aft or further back in the boat) is aft of the rudder. A ketch is a rig with two masts, the after mast is forward of the rudder. Either rig can have either a single jib or multiple jibs. When a Yawl or a Ketch has multiple jibs it is referred to a Yawl or a Ketch with multiple headsails. It is considered lubberly to refer to that rig as a 'cutter ketch' or 'cutter Yawl'. _

_I lump yawls and ketches together here because the share many similar characteristics. Ketches, in one form or another, have been around for a very long time. In the days before winches, light weight- low stretch sail cloth, high strength- low stretch line, and low friction blocks, breaking a rig into a lot of smaller sails made sense. It made it easier to manhandle the sails and make adjustments. Stretch was minimized so the sails powered up less in a gust and although multiple small sails are less efficient, the hulls were so inefficient that the loss of sail efficiency did not hurt much. Multiple masts, along with bowsprits and boomkins, allowed boats to have more sail area that would be spread out closer to the water. In a time of stone internal ballasting, and high drag in relatinship to stability, this was important as it maximized the amount of drive while minimizing heeling. In theory, multiple masts meant more luff length and more luff length meant more drive forces to windward. But multiple masts also meant more weight and much more drag. There are also issues of down draft interference, meaning that one sail is operating in the disturbed and turbulent air of the sails in front of it, which also greatly reduces the efficiency of multi mast rigs. _

_Yawls really came into being as race rule beaters. They are first seen in the 1920's as a rule beater under the Universal and International rules. They continued to be popular under the CCA rule as well. Under these rules, the sail area of jibs and mizzens were pretty much ignored in the rating. This popularized the masthead rig and the yawl. _

_There was a basis for not measuring the sail area of a yawl under these rules. On a yawl going to windward, the mizzenmast and sail generally actually produce more drag than they do drive. This is because the mizzen is sailing in really turbulent air and has to be over trimmed to keep from luffing which can effectively act as an airbrake. This is slightly less of the case on a ketch where the size of the mizzen is large enough to provide a larger percentage of the drive. _

_Downwind mizzens also are a problem. In this case the mizzen is forcing the main or foresail to operate in their bad air and so again the mizzen is not adding as much to the speed of the boat as they are taking away. BUT in the predominantly reaching races that were typical of offshore races of that era they offered a number of advantages. First of all on a reach the sails are not acting in the slipstream of each other and so each contributes a fair amount of drive for the drag produced. Also with the advent of lightweight low stretch sailcloths, mizzen staysails, which are great reaching sails, came into widespread usage in racing. Here again a ketch has the advantage of having a taller mizzen and so can fly a bigger mizzen staysail. _

_It might be helpful to compare yawl and ketch rigs to sloops. The broad generalities are that for a given sail area a sloop rig will generate a greater drive for the amount of drag generated pretty much on all points of sail. That means that a sloop will be faster or will require less sail area to go the same speed. Sloops are particularly better than Multi spar rigs such as Yawls and Ketches on a beat or on a run. A sloop rig would tend to be taller for a given sail area. This means it would be better in lighter air but it potentially might heel more, or need to be depowered or reefed sooner as the breeze picks up. _

_Sloops work best on boats with reasonably modern underbodies. Both are more efficient and so can point higher and make less leeway. _

_Ketch and Yawl rigs work best with heavier boats with less efficient underbodies such as full keels and deeply Vee'd hull forms. These hull forms often need a lot more drive and the hull is the limiting factor in how fast or how close-winded the boat will be. The yawl or ketch rig's lack of windward ability is less of a liability when placed on a hull that similarly lacks windward ability. Also, the ability of a ketch or yawl to carry more sail with less heeling moment also makes it a natural for a heavier hull form which often has comparatively little stability when compared to the amount of drive required to make a heavy boat move. _

_Much is made of the ketch or yawl's ability to be balanced to help with self-steering, to hove to, or the ability to simply sail under Jib and mizzen in a blow. This is one aspect that a traditional ketch or yawl has over a traditional sloop. It is not so true of modern sloops. Modern (especially fractional) sloops can be easily depowered and that reduces the need to reef. With modern slab reefing gear, reefing is far more easily accomplished than dropping the mainsail to the deck on a yawl or ketch. In a properly designed sloop balance is just not all that hard to achieve. _

_The performance of all three rigs, both on broad reaches and in lighter air, can be improved by the ability to carry kites of different types. _

_In terms of comfort at sea, ketch and yawl rigs push the weight of the spars closer to the ends of the boat which can increase pitch angles, albeit, while perhaps slowing pitching rates. The taller rigs of a sloop tend to increase roll angles while slowing roll rates. _

_Then there are structural issues. It is often difficult to properly stay a ketch or yawl rig as the mainmast backstay often need to be routed around the mizzen and the forward load component of the mizzen if often taken by the top of the mainmast. It is also often difficult to get proper aft staying on the mizzen of a ketch or yawl as well. These structural issues are particularly pronounced on Yawls where the mast is so far aft in the boat that on a traditional boat it is hard to get adequate staying base widths. _

_Many of the early fiberglass yawls were very poorly engineered. I heard the story of how the Bristol 40 became a yawl. It seems that Clint Pearson (who owned Bristol) had started to build a Bristol 40 sloop on order for a particular customer. As the boat was nearing completion the prospective owner bailed out leaving Mr. Pearson with bit of a problem. Almost at the same time came an enquiry about the availability of a Bristol 40 yawl for prompt delivery for a different person. Without hesitation the potential buyer was told that they happened to have a yawl that was almost finished and would be available in a few weeks. Bristol was building a 24 foot Corsair and they took a mast and rigging from a Corsair and used that for the mizzen. A block of wood was glassed onto the hull for a mast step and a hole cut in the deck for the mast to go through and Voila- the Bristol 40 yawl. Several more were built like that and they quickly proved problematic. Eventually the design was engineered to solve the problems that occurred on the first few yawls. _

_You often hear people say that yawls and ketches are simpler rigs to handle. I am not clear why that is assumed to be so as there are more sails to trim and more interaction between the individual sails. As on a sloop, you start trimming from the forward most sail moving aft. Also as on a sloop, fine tuning, small adjustments are made moving forward again to reduce downdraft interference between the sails. Sailed with the same degree of precision, a ketches and yawls require more fine tunning than a sloop but on the whole about the same amount of fine tuning as a cutter. _

_Anyway, in conclusion, if you are interested in sailing performance or ease of handling, a sloop rig makes more sense. To me the only justification for the yawl rig today is solely romantic charm, or a sense of history. I do not mean this to be a put down to those who love historic rigs, but for sheer sailing ability a yawl or ketch is a relic of another time, or an obsolete racing rule. Still, if you live in an area that is typically windier and you like traditional boats, then a ketch or yawl is an interesting albeit complicated rig. _

_Schooners_

_Schooners, more than any of the other fore and aft rigs, are really a series of rigs. They vary from the modern unstayed cat schooners (like the Freedom 39), to Fenger's experiments with wishbone schooners, to the traditional two-masted gaff schooners, to the early 19th century square topsail schooners, to the knockabout and the staysail schooners of the late 1930's, to the 4, 5 and 6 masted cargo schooners of the early 20th century. Each of these has distinct advantages and disadvantages. _

_By definition a schooner is a rig with two or more masts with the after mast(s) equal or taller than the forward mast(s). _

_Schooners, in one form or another, have been around for a very long time. Like most multi-masted rigs, they evolved in the days when breaking a rig into a lot of smaller sails made sense. Multi-masted rigs resulted in a rig with a greater number of smaller low aspect ratio sails. These proportionately smaller sails reduced stretch within the individual sails, made it easier to manhandle the sails and make sail shape adjustments. This was a time before winches, light weight- low stretch sailcloth, high strength- low stretch line, and low friction blocks. These proportionately smaller sails powered up less in a gust. While multiple small sails are less efficient, the hulls of the era were so inefficient that this loss of sail efficiency did not hurt much. _

_Multiple masts, along with bowsprits and boomkins, allowed boats to have more sail area that could be spread out closer to the water. In a time when stone internal ballasting was the norm, this was important as it maximized the amount of drive while minimizing heeling moments. Multiple masts meant more a little more luff length and more luff length meant greater drive force on a reach or beat. But multiple masts also meant more weight aloft and much more aerodynamic drag increasing heel some and greatly reducing the relative efficiency of the sails. Multi mast rigs also have the issue of downdraft interference, meaning that each sail is operating in the disturbed and turbulent air of the sails upwind of it, which also greatly reduces the efficiency of multi mast rigs. ._

_Schooners are best suited for burdensome vessels with comparatively little stability. They are best used in sailing venues where they predominantly will be reaching between 30 degrees above a beam reach to approximately 50 degrees below a beam reach. Because of the geometry and inherently high drag of the schooner rig they are not very good rigs upwind or down. Upwind, the large amount of aerodynamic drag from the spars and, in stayed rigs, rigging, coupled with the typically low aspect ratio sails typical of a schooner rig, and the down-drafting problems of a multi-masted rig, results in very poor windward performance. When compared with Yawls, which can drop their mizzen when beating without much consequence, a Schooners primary drive sail(s) are acting in the wind shadow of the entire rig. _

_Probably the highest upwind efficiency is achieved in schooners with lug foresails. On a schooner, lug foresails are not actually 'lug rigged'. In the case or a schooner, the term 'lug foresail' means a gaff foresail (not a jib) that foresail that over laps the mainsail in much the same manner as a Genoa over laps the mast on a modern rig. This rig was common in American working craft in the 19th century partially because there was no boom to deal with on the working deck. It was used on such boats as the yacht America's original rig, Tancook Whalers and on many Atlantic coast pilot boats. Lug foresails need to be tacked around the mast in much the same manner as a Genoa is today. _

_Downwind the problem of downdraft interference is a major problem as well. The large mainsail again tends to block the air on the sails forward of it and schooners really do not have a tall forward mast on which to fly a meaningful spinnaker. While there are all kinds of kites that can be flown from a schooner, and early working schooners often carried square sails on their foremasts, most of these patches really come into their own on a reach. _

_I once had a great conversation with Olin Stephens about schooners. Someone had asked why the schooner rig had died out. In the course of the conversation it was pretty much concluded that as hull forms became increasingly efficient, the schooner rig could not keep up. Great efforts at all kinds of rig improvements were tried but in the end the inherent limitations of the schooner rig was ill matched to the improved hull forms of the early 20th century._

_Today, traditional schooners are wonderful to look at relics of a bygone age. Traditional forms of the schooner rig are complicated rigs that are expensive to build and maintain. They generally lack the strength of staying of a more modern rig. They are limited in their ability to beat to windward, hove to, or go dead downwind. They require greater skill to sail well and are pretty labor intensive to sail in shifting conditions. Still there is nothing like the romance of gaff topsail schooner with a bone in her teeth. _


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Very nice write-up thanks for sharing it....


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Kudo's Jeff. 
Nothing left to say.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*Jeff*

Good read thanks...


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I sailed on a ketch rigged Pacific Clipper for years on San Francisco Bay. Other than being low freeboard (and wet!), it was a delightful boat to sail. Sailing "jib and jigger" would enable us to sail balanced without reefing in all but the strongest summer afternoon breezes. The downside was the boat did not point very well at all. This wasn't much of a problem most of the time as we were based out of Sausalito, but trying to tack up Raccoon Straight, especially against the tide, was a lesson in frustration. Tacking out through the Golden Gate in similar conditions wasn't much better. For shear versatility you can't beat a sloop, but there will always be a soft place in my heart for a two masted boat.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Nice essay Jeff.

Although, it's unfortunate that your text is littered with over 100 hyperlinks advertising sailnet gear.


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## bobmcd (Feb 21, 2008)

Thanks to you all for such quick and well informed views. Jeff's piece is one that I'll print out and read over and over. I think that there is a consensus that ketch rig is not practical for a boat less than 36' or so and I can readily see the logic in that. Also the point about modern gear for reducing sail area handling halyards and sheets with self tailing winches makes a lot of sense too. One comment, by Jeff, that puzzled me was that he thinks that neither the Fuji nor the Aries sails very well. Maybe he would like to elaborate on that cryptic note. 
Anyway, thanks again to all who contributed. I'll continue to read the posts in this excellent forum and may well raise some more questions later.
Regards
Bob


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Had a friend who owned an older yawl rigged boat (custom wood boat). It was 36 feet long, and I think he just loved the look more than anything else. Though one advantage, I don't know if it has been discussed here, is another element he loved. While at anchor, the mizzen sail acted as a "riding" sail, and would keep his boat pointed with far less movement than sloops. Another friend who has a CT 41 ketch, likes the same thing about his mizzen sail while at anchor.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Those links are annoying!*

Um, I didn't do those hyperlinks in my post to items in the SailNet store. Poor JeffH, his great essay was almost hard to read becuase of those automatically generated links. Kind of annoying...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Unfortunately, the Sailnet forum software automatically tags certain keywords with links to the store. VHF, GPS, Sails, Anchor, about a thousand others will all generate automatic links. 

I'd agree there isn't much purpose to getting a ketch or yawl that small, aside from looks.


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## tjaldur (Mar 1, 2008)

I agree with the formidable description made by Jeff H. about the different rigs. There is one small point I would like to mention in defence of the gaff rigged ketch. The gaff sails are square whereas the sloop rigged sails are triangular. That makes the center of forces much lower (given the same total sail area). In 30 knots wind the ship heels 5 degrees, but of course drifts more than a sloop with a keel. The main disadvantage with this rig is that it is not so good as a sloop rig against the wind. 

The ship is a 37 ' rebuildt wooden fishingship from 1935, buildt for fishing in the North Sea.


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## Harvester (Mar 1, 2008)

Jeff. that was a great post. I just had a diagonal read now but I'll come back to read it thoroughly later. Thanks


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Jeff,
Fabulous article, good reading, thanks muchly.

One question, what do you mean by this ?

"Their smaller jibs are easier to tack and they reef down to a snug masthead rig."

I don't understand what you mean by reef down to a masthead rig.

Cheers


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## ewhaile (Nov 11, 2007)

bobmcd said:


> I am looking at two 32 footers: Fuji 32 ketch and Aries 32 sloop. LOA are similar: 31'6" vs 31'10". LWL are 24'9" vs 26'. Beams: 9'10" vs 9'6". Drafts: 3'8" vs 5'. Dspl: 13,115 lb vs 15,000 lb . Ballast: 4635 lb vs 5000 lb. Sail areas are same: 470 sf. Hull designs are quite different: Fuji, designed by John Alden, has sharper clipper bow and cutaway forefoot on keel with full stern and wide transom. Aries, designed by Thomas Gillmer has Colin Archer form with full length full keel and canoe stern. Our intended sailing area is the SF Bay with occasional jaunts up and down the coast. No long distance passages in the immediate future. I have never sailed a ketch but don't see learning to handle three sails a big challenge. Any comments on these two designs and/or these particular boats will be greatly appreciated.
> Regards
> Bob


A sloop points higher, that's all. A ketch is easier to sail and can be more powerful on a reach, and a very tough rig offshore. The best discussion is in Phil Bolger's book One Hundred Sailboat Rigs. ED


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Really, ask artbyjody if a sloop points higher than a ketch or yawl. After today on Oh Joy, he might differ with ya.

Just to clarify, we were sailing upwind at about 2 knots (foreaching) in 12-15 knots of wind at about 5-10 degrees of apparent wind. The sails were full and we were making headway. I've never seen a boat sail that close. The windex was almost pointing dead ahead. Really interesting.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

i agree with John also there's really no point with ketch or yawl rigged boats until you get up to the 50 foot mark.
I don't know if this was previously mentioned but for those new to sailing a Ketch has its mizzen (secondary) mast forward of the rudder post wheras a yawl has it aft. I hope someone found that helpfull.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I think that may be the difference between the pointing ability of my boat as opposed to a Ketch. Other than the addition of the Mizzen aft of the cockpit and rudder, the only difference between it and the sloop version is the E measurement is 2 feet shorter. So, with a 2' shorter boom and the added SA of the Mizzen, there's no real change in pointing ability.


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## oaklandsailor (Mar 24, 2010)

artbyjody said:


> Very nice write-up thanks for sharing it....


Jeff, if you're out there somewhere, "thanks" for the lesson above. I've never sailed a yawl or ketch and so have no opinion other than hundreds of hours on sloops whose behaviors are predictable to me. Recently, a yacht broker took pains to convince me that a ketch was a better idea to cruise singlehanded than a sloop. Fortunately, the argument was friendly. Perhaps there was a ketch in a slip that needed a new owner right away.

OS


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## SoulVoyage (May 9, 2010)

Well, the old ketch vs. Sloop or cutter thing is like any other partisan bickering. People who love ketches swear by them, people who don't swear AT them.

I happen to fall into the group of people that LOVE them, and I have a 30 foot ketch - an early sixties Allied Seawind...her hull is my sig picture to the left. Here's my argument for a ketch-rig on a small boat:

Please note, though, that I have set up my rig in a very tradional manner: I.E- I've got two forestays side-by-side, genoa is hanked on the port forestay, the working jib is hanked on the starboard forestay. I use no roller furler. My halyards are on shroud belaying pin racks, except when in use, then they're cleated to the mast. Oh, and I row instead of motor; and I climb the ratlines and mast-steps instead of having someone haul me up, when I wanna get up the mast, not that that has to do with ketch v sloop, but it kinda shows where I'm coming from.

Okay...here goes:

1)Ketches allow you more sail hanging options. In moderate to heavy weather, I am often running just working jib and mizzen. I get 6 knots out of this on a decent wind, and the boat is extremely well-balanced. Or I could go with a mule sail and jib and jigger, or put up all sails, whatever.

2)The mizzen is indispensible for manuevering the boat in tight corners! I usually leave and come back to the slip under sail. Depending on wind direction,I'll either have the mizzen or jib ready to raise depending on which way i want to swing. Sometimes if the wind is blowing skunk from the port, I'll have the mizzen raised to keep the bow from blowing to stbd too much while I back out.

Raising and lowering the mizzen and working jib up far and down in sequence, allows you to basically spin the boat in her own circumference. You can't do that with your fancy roller-furled sloops and cutters. Spinning in your own circumference REALLY comes in handy when your sailing in in a tight area with docks and boats and moorings all around. To do this I walk the jib halyard back to the cockpit, and raise and lower the sails as needed as I turn.

3) the mizzen comes in really handy when your raising and lowering your other sails. The mizzen is always the first sail I raise and the last sail I douse. The mizzen will allow the boat to keep herself nicely pointed into the wind, while I go forward and raise the jib and then the main.

4) mizzen makes a great riding sail at anchor if you have some minor currents that are screwing with your set.

5) mizzen and jib is a GREAT combo for heaving-to. Heaving-to in heavier winds, I'll reef the mizzen and set to a stormsail on the forestay. I prefer the addition of the mizzen while hove-to. In very heavy-weather, I douse the mizzen and just heave-to under stormsail.

6)FAR from being a hinderance in the cockpit, in heavy-weather I am ALWAYS glad that mast is there. It's a great support, I have 4 extra shrouds to hang to. I lean against the mast. I can lash myself to it if I had to during heavy conditions, ha ha, except I'd be down below instead, if I was at bare-poles state!!

7)With a mizzen, you can have lower masts with the same sail area, and thus a lower center of effort...important in ocean storms

8) Your sails will be smaller and easier to handle, for those that still handle their sails.

Sure there are a couple drawbacks to a mizzen mast in the cockpit: You can't really have a bimini top under sail, although I DO have a sweet custom-made cockpit awning that fits around the mast for at anchor or at dock. And when VERY close-hauled, the mizzen doesn't add oodles of power. And the mizzen complicates the wind effect when running. I find the mizzen doesn't dirty the air of the jib way up forward as much as it would the main, so I wing and wing the mizzen and main. So it's like wing and wing and wing.

I am sorry....but ketches are a WIN, no matter what size boat. The argument that a ketch-rig only is good on a larger boat is myopic. The attributes that make a ketch-rig attractive on a larger boat are the SAME attributes that make a ketch-rig attractive on a smaller boat. I don't buy that arguement at all. My ketch-rig doesn't really hinder my movements really, or certainly not enough to not have a ketch rig. The argument against a ketch rig is based upon two factors: Strict performance and the the convenience of bimini covered cockpit. Sure, a sloop with full batten sails, is probably going to outperform to windward the same length ketch, but if performance was my only goal, I'd spend ALL my time sailing a Tornado 20. I'm often up to my hull speed with my ketch as it is, with all rags flying. I REALLY would not want to sail anything BUT a ketch, for the above reasons, especially not in a 4 day blow. Ketches made sense decades ago...they still make sense now. The seas and winds and storms haven't changed.

I think these days sailors are TOO reliant on their gizmos and conveniences...but often those presumed conveniences will let you down when the sheet hits the fan. Roller furling; all lines lead aft; cockpits surrounded by plastic-windowed biminis; electric mast furling; elecric windlasses; electric winches even!!! Sheeeezh...is sailing becoming like TV??
Naahh. No thank you. I'll have none of that. Okay. My rant's up.


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## oaklandsailor (Mar 24, 2010)

Makes perfect sense, at least to someone like myself. Still, it seems very likely that short handed/solo sailing will be simpler, require less expensive maintenance and in all ways be easier to live with on a sloop. First chance I get I'll spend a few days on a ketch and with luck that will happen before I own my next boat. 

OK, who's out there on San Francisco bay that wants to demo his/her ketch?

OS


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## sail123 (Jul 10, 2012)

wOw! Bringing this forward mainly because of this post, and the post that supports the ketch. Wonderful post. Rich in history and sailing knowledge.

I own a 32 ketch, and I would not trade mine for any other 32 foot sailboat that I know of.



Jeff_H said:


> Neither are especially good sailing boats, nor would either be a boat that I would consider for the changeable conditions that are typically found cruising on San Francisco Bay. I also agree with the above posts which indicate that a ketch rig makes very little sense on a boat under about 40 feet.
> 
> The following is a taken from a draft that I had written for another venue, but it does discuss the basics of various rigs.
> 
> ...


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## sail123 (Jul 10, 2012)

Sweet post! Reading your post, I now have even more reasons to love my 32 aft cabin ketch.

You row a 30 foot sailboat? I would love a video of that!



SoulVoyage said:


> Well, the old ketch vs. Sloop or cutter thing is like any other partisan bickering. People who love ketches swear by them, people who don't swear AT them.
> 
> I happen to fall into the group of people that LOVE them, and I have a 30 foot ketch - an early sixties Allied Seawind...her hull is my sig picture to the left. Here's my argument for a ketch-rig on a small boat:
> 
> ...


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## WanderingStar (Nov 12, 2008)

I don't have video, but I used to row a 26', 4 ton yawl. Just not often. I sailed her when there was the least breeze, and with 412 sq ft of sail, she could do it. She had no engine. Once in a while in a dead calm I'd row a ways. Never more than a mile I think. Once you get them moving it's not hard.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I rowed Oh Joy a few times, 35', 7 tons. Not fun IF you really have to get somewhere to windward.... I was wondering why this old thread was back...

Speaking of Jeff, where's he been?


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## Sea Dawg (Jun 26, 2012)

Jeff_H said:


> .... Still there is nothing like the romance of gaff topsail schooner with a bone in her teeth. [/I]


Very informative old post Jeff, thanks. Many people will select the boat with their eyes first and then compare strength and weaknesses. In SF bay area with the strong currents there will be a lot to consider for the OP. Upwind or upcurrent performance would be pretty important there. But in the final analysis, you give at least some weight to sheer beauty.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Charlie, Thanks for asking about me. In these times I am working a lot more hours for a lot less pay, so I don't have as much time to play around on the forums. But also, I also got remarried a few years ago and prefer spending more of my free time with my lovely bride. I have looked at your threads and your company is doing really lovely work. Very impressive.....

I do want to comment on some of the issues in the mentioned in the posts above....
I used to routinely row my old Folkboat which was a 4200 lb, full keeled 25 footer. I used one very long sweep (12-15 foot) that I used by hanging a loop of line over a winch and made out of scrap lumber. Once you got the boat moving it was not all that hard work. I rowed facing forward. I would tie the tiller slightly to one side to counter act the excentricity of using one oar and could vary the stroke to steer.

When I read SoulVoyage's comments, they are not wrong, but they don't tell the whole story. SoulVoyage's boat is a good example of my earlier statement about a boat being designed as a system and the fact that some rigs and some hull forms work well together.

In the case of the Allied Seawind, this is a comparatively high drag hull form, with a comparatively inefficient keel, and comparatively low stability for its drag. This is the perfect combination for a ketch rig since it produces a lot of drive for the amount of heeling it generates, and the limitation on pointing comes from its keel form, and the limitation on dead down wind ability, comes from its drag, rather than any shortcoming inherrent in the ketch rig.

But to address SoulVoyage's comments....



SoulVoyage said:


> 1)Ketches allow you more sail hanging options.


 That is a true statement, but the reality is that if this were a boat that has more stability as compared to its drag and consequently a more efficient sail plan, you would not need the 'sail hanging options' since you would be able to adapt to changes in wind angle and speed with fewer sail changes.



SoulVoyage said:


> 2)The mizzen is indispensible for manuevering the boat in tight corners! .


SoulVoyage is right that the mizzen can be a helpful tool in manuevering in tight corners under sail, but with modern low friction hardware it is easy enough to back a jib or mainsail making the mizzen unnecessary to accomplish the same thing that can be accomplished with the mizzen and with the wider range traveler on a modern mainsail, the trick which an sometimes be done with a mizzen can be done faster and more precisely with the mainsail.



SoulVoyage said:


> 3) the mizzen comes in really handy when your raising and lowering your other sails. .


That is true as well, but somehow you need to get the mizzen up which is no harder than getting a piece of a mainsail up on a sloop, and once you have a piece of the main up, it can be used to keep the boat head to wind. But this is where the distinction that the ketch rig has little purpose on a boat under around 40 feet. In a sloop under 40 feet, the mainsail is small enough to be man handled in much the same way as a mizzen can be manhandled. But somewhere around 40 feet the smaller size of a mizzen relative to the main of a boat that big, makes the mizzen more convenient for that purpose.



SoulVoyage said:


> 4)The mizzen makes a great riding sail at anchor if you have some minor currents that are screwing with your set. .


This is one that I am somewhat at odds with. It is true that people with ketches will sometimes leave their mizzens up and use them as a riding sail, but in my experence, if the mizzen is large enough to be worth having, it is then too large to be a good riding sail, in that it has too much area if the wind picks up during the night. The reality is that a riding sail should be quite small, made of much stiffer fabric than any working sail, they are cheap to build and easier to fly than trying to keep a mizzen up.



SoulVoyage said:


> 5) mizzen and jib is a GREAT combo for heaving-to. Heaving-to in heavier winds, I'll reef the mizzen and set to a stormsail on the forestay. I prefer the addition of the mizzen while hove-to. In very heavy-weather, I douse the mizzen and just heave-to under stormsail..


Again, if the mizzen is big enough and the jib small enough that is a great combo to hove-to. By the same token an properly designed sloop will do the same thing (hove to without a mizzen) so that really is not an advantage of a ketch rig as much as how you hove to on a ketch.



SoulVoyage said:


> 6)FAR from being a hinderance in the cockpit, in heavy-weather I am ALWAYS glad that mast is there. It's a great support, I have 4 extra shrouds to hang to. I lean against the mast. I can lash myself to it if I had to during heavy conditions, ha ha, except I'd be down below instead, if I was at bare-poles state!!.


I will suggest that this is mixing functions in a way that really is not about an advantage or disadvantage of the the ketch rig. It is more about making the best use of what is available at the time, a making lemonaide when are dealt lemons.

On all boats that venture offshore, it is essential to have good handholds, and good foot holds. On a sloop these need to be designed into the architecture of the cockpit. On a ketch, the mast and standing rigging can become a very useful part of architecture addressing that function. But if you have every tried to design a cockpit and steering for a ketch, (especially a small ketch) you very quickly understand how much of an obstruction that the mizzen mast and shrouds really are.



SoulVoyage said:


> 7)With a mizzen, you can have lower masts with the same sail area, and thus a lower center of effort...important in ocean storms.


This again goes back to my opening statement about boats being a system and a specific rig making sense within the context of a particular design. In the case of a boat like the Seawind, it is true when you have a high drag, proportionately low stability boat with an inefficient keel, keeping the rig low can be a critical design strategy. But on a boat that is more easily driven and with a more efficient sail plan that strategy just is not necessary or appropriate.



SoulVoyage said:


> 8) Your sails will be smaller and easier to handle, for those that still handle their sails..


This is a bit of chicken and egg thing, If you have a ketch rig you need a lot more sail area to get the same drive as more efficient sloop rig. But on a ketch you have smaller individual sails. If you have a big boat or you have archaic hardware (as SoulVoyage says he has on his Seawind) then smaller sails are an advantage. But if you have less sail area to deal with reasonably good modern hardware then the smaller sail plan on the sloop becomes easier to handle.



SoulVoyage said:


> I am sorry....but ketches are a WIN, no matter what size boat. The argument that a ketch-rig only is good on a larger boat is myopic. ..


It goes way beyond nearsightedness and well into legal blind to the not understand why ketch rig does not make sense on a smaller boat but might on a larger one. Anyone who has sailed around other boats, understand the effects of sailing in bad air. The overlap between a jib and a mainsail prevents that from being much of an issue, but as you separate the masts on ketch, you begin to get into a circumstance where the mizzen operates in the bad air of the main upwind and the main or jib operates in the bad air of the mizzen down wind. And because the main is comparatively smaller and the mizzen comparatively larger, it means that you don't really have the option of dropping the main or mizzen and expect the same preformance.

As a boat gets larger, the space between the masts separate some, and although the wind shadow also gets larger, the mizzen is more likely to see some clear air upwind. But more significantly as a boat gets larger the sail area of the individual sails eventually gets beyond the point where it is possible to man-handle them with normal sail handling gear. That point will vary with the design and with the individual sailor, but at some point, breaking down the size of the individual sails lets the boat get bigger while still remaining managing to have sails which can be handled without power winches and other specialized gear.

But in the end it the choice of the right rig comes down to overall design intent. Once you have decided what it is you are trying to accomplish you tweak the entire design so it works together properly. I can give this example. When I worked for Charlie Wittholz I worked on the design of a 'modern' 28 foot canoe yawl. Many of the canoe yawls were actually ketch rigged, but we wanted to make this one a fractionally rigged sloop. We had looked a number of designs such by Albert Strange and and also looked at LF Herreshoff's Rozinante. To use a sloop rig, Charlie gave the canoe yawl a little extra stability, and lot less drag (cut away forefoot, long fin keel, and skeg hung rudder). Without those tweaks the boat could not have carried the sloop rig successfully, so a ketch rig might have made sense. But with those tweaks it would have been a waste of a good sailing hull, to put a ketch rig on her.

Jeff


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## sail123 (Jul 10, 2012)

Jeff: you are a good example of an admin that knows his forum's field. Knowledge is in your grasp for the subject of sailing from the standpoint of math and science. 

Math and science has done a pretty poor job of explaining the flight of the bumble bee over the years. In my Highschool they taught us they could not fly, while we kept the windows closed to keep them outside. 

Math and science misses sometimes. Often times a hard miss at things like attractiveness. 

Not every boy wants to dance with the same girl at the prom. Looking at it another way, few of us name our windows explorer program, but most of us name our sailboats. 

Your long articulate posts do not aid the flight of a bumble bee, even if you understood its flight. If nature only wanted a purely efficient bumble bee, it would look like a hornet. Nature builds both hornets and bumble bees for reasons we change every five years with new textbooks. The bumble bees never read the book. 

Sailing is a song. It is a romance. It is a love. It is a slide rule also, but no more so than the heart. 

I own both a 32 sloop and a 32 ketch, and I dearly love that sloop, because it is so darn handy to steal parts off of for the ketch as needed. 

You have a nice forum here. Nice people, and good people driving the machine.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I agree with you that much of why we sail is about the aesthetic of the experience. The experience of sailing different traditional rigs and on boats of different eras results in a very different aesthetic for each. This diversity of experience is why I still enjoy sailing gaff riggers and boats of most eras. For any individual sailor, a particular aesthetic may compelling appeal to so that this individual choses to own and sail a particular type of boat. In that regard, there is no wrong decision on the type of boat that someone choses to own as long as it suits their tastes, and needs. 

But on the flip side, and getting to the point of my posts, even if a particular rig, hull or period of design works for any particular individual, it does not change the relative science of how that rig, hullform or period of design behaves compared other rigs, hullforms or periods of design. The bumblebee analogy is a good one. The bumblebee and the wasp are both very well evolved/designed for their life cycles. The short wingspans and minimal air movement around a bee works well for a creature which needs to be able to get into a the center of flowers without disturbing the pollen within. (btw, it was during WW II that the statement was made that it seemed imposible to explain why a Bee flies. This does not mean that science could not explain why bees fly. In fact, science has long since come to understand the aerodynamics and musclecular system which allows a bee to fly.) 

The idea that the design of a bee is purposeful for its use, also applies to sailboats, which was at the heart of my comments above about boats as a system. If the goal is to experience a certain aesthetic experience, then any specific rig, hullform, hardware and anything else appropriate for that aethetic is the proper choice. But even if that is the right mix to meet that person's tastes and objectives, that does not change that mix's behavior relative to other options. And in a thread that starts off asking to compare two different rigs, the objective should be to provide an objective dialogue which results in a fair-minded comparason of those two rigs so that the original poster can decide which aethetic appeals to them. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## sail123 (Jul 10, 2012)

The original thread, "Ketch VS Sloop" managed to wick into a bigger puddle, that may be called "100's Of Sailboats, Which One For Me?"

I see three things influencing the selection of a sailboat:

(2 have been touched upon in detail)

1:Engineering and the suitability for our needs

2:Romance, or the AAAWWWWW factor

3: (possibly the most important of all) Cost and availability

A sailboat can do everything we want, hits every single bucket list down the line, however, if it is not available to you, as a consumer, it is really no choice at all. If one cannot afford it, it is no real choice.

My bucket list was this:

32" slip was available, wanted to "Fill" the slip.

Wheel Helm

Head I could get into at 6"7"

Trailer and trailerable without permits to possibly take on one vacation a year ( yes, trailerable to any vacation spot over land via my trailer and any full sized passenger vehicle)

Ketch (the romance issue, I just love a row of sails in the air)

One person steppable masts that could be done easily from the slip

Fiberglass hull & deck construction

Inboard diesel

Pass survey. Had zero interest in purchasing another full time job. 

Sailboat I could afford. Did not want to go into debt. Wasn't looking for a second mortgage. The average price for 32" sailboats on one Internet site was over $75,000. 

Love my boat, pleased with most of the slide rule issues (if the beam were 8.5' I would be happier), and I do not have a hole in the water. A kettle ringer with a bad bell could raise that kind of money in a blizzard.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

sail123 said:


> The original thread, "Ketch VS Sloop" managed to wick into a bigger puddle, that may be called "100's Of Sailboats, Which One For Me?"
> 
> I see three things influencing the selection of a sailboat:
> 
> ...


I think that comes back to the idea that all boats are a compromise, and most happy boat-owners can easily explain why they made the compromises which led them to the boat that they chose to buy. Seeing your process and priorities in making your own selection should be helpful to someone else who is wrestling with their own various issues involved in the purchase of thier boat. I am glad that you feel that your boat worked for your needs since that is mostly what counts in the end. (BTW, is that a Clipper 32?)

Jeff


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## sail123 (Jul 10, 2012)

Yes, I have two. An aft cabin ketch and an aft cockpit sloop. The sloop is my time machine hardware store, lumberyard, marina when I need a part. Indians in the southwest used to keep a macaw in a sack to regenerate feathers. My sloop does not regenerate, but it still helps out sometimes. 

II have it at first hand information William Crealock was very proud of Clipper Marine sailboats. Rightfully so. Wonderful line of Trailerable sailboats. With thousands of them still in service all over the world, they attest to them being light and strong. 

I am inland on a small lake. 32 feet is the max length boat at the marina. Winters freeze the water so it gets trailered every season. This size boat makes it the ideal choice for me.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Right after college, I had a job working for a Clipper Marine dealer. My job was assembling and prepping new boats for customers and taking the new owners for introductory sails and sea trials, which sometimes also meant moonlighting doing sailing instruction. I also performed warrantee work on these boats. Consequently, I had a chance to talk to Bill Crealock about the Clippers. His opinion of the clippers was interesting, but not what I would categorize as proud of what Clipper did to his designs. 

But like I said many times before, and as you have clearly demonstrated, we each pick our boats for reasons which make sense to us and our circumstance, and justify them to ourselves on that basis. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Chadfunk48 (Jun 8, 2006)

Wow this thread has some great info and a great back and forth about sloops and ketch rigs. I was just offered a Sabre 28 ketch that is sitting in a friend of a friends back yard for free (I know, there is no such thing). Although after reading this thread I'm thinking that even if the boat is in good shape I may steet clear anyway. The points made about extra cost for more rigging and cluttering up the cockpit have me thinking. As much as I do love the look of a ketch I'm not prepaired to add thousands to my inital expenses for lines, shrouds, etc. I would think that for the price of the extra rigging and other work that it will need (been sitting for 8 years in a backyard under a tree...) I might as well buy something for 10,000 that is ready to sail... I've had my share of project boats and I think I'm over it.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sometimes the best reason to own a ketch is the fact that you like ketches.
I'm not sure any objective argument beyond that works with today's gear.

I think Jeff has done a great and accurate job of laying out the design considerations.


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## Deric (Feb 3, 2008)

I enjoyed reading this thread. I would like to add another variable: the free standing mast cat ketch.

I find the free standing mast cat ketch to be very easy for the solo sailor. 

No winches, and self tacking sail design is simple when tacking.

No additional hardware such as shrouds and buckles..Etc

Only two lines are on the cockpit

Mizzen boom is half wishbone with loose footed sail.. If one stood at 10 feet one may get hit in the head on a gybe.

Halsey Herreshoff designed cat ketch made by John Newton produced a boat with many considerations regarding safety.

There are many many considerations for selecting a boat, and this thread has provided arguments for those considerations. We regard performance based on the values we deem important:

Speed
Safety
Look
Handling
Price

Etc...

I find this thread educating and look to sail on as many different sail boats to further my learning.

Thank you fellow sailors for a very enriched thread.


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## fujijohn (May 6, 2002)

Lot of good points on both sides.
Being a bit biased, my ketch offers numerous advantages some disadvantages- some of what haven't been discussed.
Sailing notes:
1.	tremendous amount of sail configurations 
2.	add a inner forestay - i.e. cutter rig -makes for a "klutter" term borrowed from Fuji site, great for storm jib
3.	Mule sail easily induces lean - greater water line -a smidgen faster, upwind
4.	Staysail - makes beam reach a 'blast' literally
5.	Extra Sail area combined with the heavy weight enables decent to good light air performance
6.	Beating hard up wind in anything under 25 knots loses against most sloops
7.	Going from a racing sloop to a cruising slug (ketch) made be a much better sailor, more attuned to perfect sail trim, getting the slots right, proper draft ect.
Cruising notes:
1.	relatively long keel and 3-4 sails to trim can easily balance for self steering
2.	Shallow long keel offers less area for cross seas to plummet
3.	Shallow draft and higher center of gravity in light air makes for uncomfortable motion
4.	Mizzen boom makes a great awning support
5.	Reefed Mizzen acts as stabilizer at anchor
Day sailing Notes:
1.	New people to sailing have 50% more things to help with on a ketch - many like being part of the action
2.	Single handed handling is tougher
3.	Shallow draft allows getting much closer to shoreline
The Fuji 32 is not a Alden design, but the hull originates from the desk of Clair Oberly designer of the Mariner 31 36 & 40. The superstructure design was appropriated (& compensated?) from the Fuji 35 which Alden did design. The full cut away keel with relatively shallow draft opens up shallow water cruising grounds while the 41' mast slips under many fixed bridges further expanding the cruising grounds. Nearly as many arguments can be made on shallow vs. deep draft boats as sloop versus ketch.
In comparing two very different types of designs from the original question and the intended sailing area of San Francisco bay with some coastal hops either boat should be fine, but not discussed:
1. skill level, 
2.	normal amount of crew available 
3.	preferred weather conditions. 
San Francisco Bay has 6 ft tide with plenty of depth in 80% of region, the heavier sloop is a better fit for a single hander who wants more coastal hops, ketch may be better for bay explorer with friends.


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## RandyonR3 (Oct 2, 2005)

Gota bring up something in thought.. 
Many many years ago when learning to sail, (boy scouts) and I'm now in my 60s, our main concern was to trim the sloop to the point where you didnt touch the tiller so underwater drag on the rudder was limited to almost nill. and I've always kept that issue in mind throu many years of racing and now crusing our FIRST 42..
But awhile back I went out with a friend with a ketch and his major concern while using the mizzen was to balance the boat and keep it tracking forward in line..
Now tell me I'm wrong here, but it seemed his actions with the mizzen was counter productive.. and even to the point that a ketch is forced into a straight line and could possably be in a crabbing attitude..
Sort of like a car that would pull to the right so you would adjust the left front brake to keep it tracking straight..
Am I thinking wrong here or is this a concern with adjusting the sails on a ketch..


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Randy:
Any healthy ketch, like any healthy sloop will have a balanced helm with some weather helm when reaching or on the wind. A small amount of weather helm, say 3 degrees is good for boat speed and helps the boat stay in the groove while making it easier to steer.

If you are dragging in excess of 4 degrees of weather helm then you are sailing with your parking brake on and that is unhealthy. Given the aft center pf pressure of the typical mizzen it's not unusual for the mizzen to need reefing when the wind exceeds, say 20 apparent, maybe 18 aws for a smaller ketch, just to keep the ketch well balanced. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just a function of having that sail area so far aft.

I know I keep repeating this but once again I'll say, it's dangerous to generalize too much. There are great ketches and poor ketches. The Tayana 37 ketch was a far better sailing boat than the cutter version. Much better balanced and better boat speed a s a result. Surprised th hell out of me. But they sold 570 cutters and only 30 ketches ( approx) so go figure.


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

Jeff_H said:


> _ Increasing backstay tension induces controlled mast bend, which flattens the mainsail and opens the leech of the sail. _


Jeff

Was reading thru this old thread and noted the above comment that was discussing Fractional rigged vessels. I have always wondered how bending the mast can both flatten the sail and open the leech at the same time. Does not opening the leech imply twisting the sail somewhat?

Thanks for the great explanation but this question has always nagged at me

Mike


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## WanderingStar (Nov 12, 2008)

Randy, I'm not sure what your friend did. I also adjust the mizzen for balance. I think as long as it is drawing it adds speed. Certainly she is slower without it, and under certain conditions she will sail under mizzen alone. When I sail to anchor, I free the main and staysail. In a light breeze she'll continue to close reach under the mizzen. At times she'll sail up if anchored with the mizzen set. I like the flexibility of my ketch.


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## Movingrightalong... (Apr 14, 2017)

*Re: Jeff*



Stillraining said:


> Good read thanks...


As evidenced by your avatar, both sailboats and ladies' swimwear should both be "ketch rigged" and for the same reason.

In all seriousness though... with an n of about 3 it appears as if some of production boats available as both ketch and sloop rigs have identically sized main masts...which seems to eliminate the "lower center of force"/"smaller sails"/"bridge" clearance argument?


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