# Mysterious cracks in Hunter hulls



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

My Hunter 170 developed massive cracks inexplicably this past winter. When i checked out some other forums like HunterOwners.com, I found out that dozens of other Hunter owners have had the same problem. Have members of this forum heard of this issue with Hunter boats?


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I looked at a late '80s Hunter 40 a few months ago while in the market. Though I didn't notice any cracks in the hull (it was in the water) - there were cracks everywhere else on that boat. The cockpit sole (at the sidewall) was cracked all the way around. The area around the cockpit speakers was cracked like someone had leaned on it too hard (how does that happen), cracks around the winches, and the interior around the main hatch was showing quite few cracks.

Maybe it was owned by a family of Sumo-s. I didn't ask.

But it sure looked pretty cheesy so I didn't look at any more Hunters.


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

Good call on that one smackdaddy. Check out the photos of the cracks on my Hunter!!

Picasa Web Albums - p.eisenschmid - CanonEPP070204


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Wow..that's something else! Looks to my (unprofessioal) eye like overthick gelcoat and cold weather contraction/expansion issues between the gelcoat and the laminate. Nasty.

While not a Hunter fan overall, I've certainly never seen anything this extreme on the larger boats.


----------



## craigtx (Oct 16, 2009)

Was the boat full of ice, freeze/thaw.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Holy crap, dude. That sucks.


----------



## xsboats (Oct 2, 2007)

What's so mysterious about finding cracks on a Hunter?


----------



## TheFrog (Oct 25, 2007)

*non-gel coat*

No, this is not a gel coat nor a laminate issue. The Hunter 170 is truly a plastic boat, not a fibreglass boat. Read the description from Hunter.
When I was looking into boats I didn't give serious consideration to the 170 due to the unproven technology. Basically it is just a plastic outer shell with a spray foam lining. My guess is the cold made the outer shell brittle, there may have been some moisture in the foam or just a difference in expansion of disparate materials and "CRACK".

Basically you are in need of a new boat.


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

You got that right TheFrog! the Hunter plastic hull can't handle temperature changes. And worse, their customer service is the pits. Instead of admitting to a manufacturing defect, Hunter Marine agents just blame their customers and give them instructions on how to fix their boats. Last Hunter I will ever buy!


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have been aboard dozens of Hunters in my life. While I have seen the kinds of minor hairline crazing that you would expect to see on boats of their ages, I had not seen anything or heard of anything like this. 

My recollection is that this is a boat with a vacuum formed skin and a foam backer if I remember correctly. Boats like these need to be stored more carefully than your typical fiberglass boat and so storing with snow in the boat in cold weather is probably an extreme no-no. 

This boat has a similar construction to a friend of mine's rowing shell. My recollection is that the skin material is sensitive to solvents other than alcohol and in particular does not do well with ammonia based cleaners or silicone bases products. 

The kind of failure that is shown on this boat looks like a total failure of the skin material my guess is that this is due to exposure to a non-compatable solvent. The failure would be aggrevated by the way the boat appears to have been stored with the kind of minimal support that a trailer gives and then full of snow. 

Have you discussed this with Hunter? My experiences with Hunter and thier general reputation is that they are known for having reasonably good customer support and should be able to help you figure out what went wrong. 

Jeff


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Our posts crossed in the ether. I would talk directly to Hunter Factory rather than their agents. The factory would know if this is a frequent problem and whether there was perhaps a bad batch of material out there around the time that your boat was built. But they should also be able to detect whether an inapropriate solvent was used. 

Even if the fault was your use of the wrong chemicals or how you store the boat, Hunter tends to have reasonably complete owners manuals and if they did not caution you against using inappropriate solvents or extreme the cold or storing the boat full of snow, then they should have some liability and may help you straighten this out. 

Jeff


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Let's just make sure that this does not turn into another Hunter Bashing thread, etc. Please keep to the facts and present all the information. Also, if I feel the thread crosses the line into a personal vendetta, it is going to get pulled.

Although I do not mind an honest debate on marine products here, they typically degrade into something that we do not need or allow. 

I have seen both sides of Hunter. I have seen some boats that were poorly designed or thought through. I have also seen, especially as of late, a genuine interest in making a better product. My personal prefence is still Catalina (of any of the production boats), but I would for once actually give Hunter a serious look.

This is not meant to take away from your personal issue that you are having with your boat, but I am curious what Hunter Marine has done to correct the problem. Have you contacted them? Are they aware of this? What was their solution?

- CD


----------



## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

wundrbar said:


> Good call on that one smackdaddy. Check out the photos of the cracks on my Hunter!!
> 
> Picasa Web Albums - p.eisenschmid - CanonEPP070204


I haven't heard anything about problems associated with temperature extremes, but...

In the photos to which you linked, I see a trailer entirely unsuited to the boat it is supporting (not to mention the load of snow/ice). Even with the limited rocker/hull curvature, the two straight, flat trailer bunks cannot provide more than a few square inches of contact surface between the bunks and the hull.

A boat this size and weight should have athwartship, rather than fore and aft, trailer bunks which would provide far more contact and load bearing surface area. And, there should be at least four such bunks to adequately distribute the weight of the hull as well as the shock loads incurred while trailering. Ideally, those bunks would be spaced out fore and aft and aligned under structural bulkheads or other reinforced areas of the hull.

I would be amazed if this is the trailer and bunk system that Hunter provided with this sailboat. If it is, then Hunter should step up and help you out with repairs (assuming you are original owner). If it isn't, and Hunter never approved this trailer for use with their boat, then you would be well advised to gratefully accept any assistance they offer.


----------



## craigtx (Oct 16, 2009)

Good point John, if the bow had ice build up it could easily damage the unsupported bow.
The boat should have been flip over on cross supports for winter storage. (outside)


----------



## scottbr (Aug 14, 2007)

JohnRPollard said:


> I haven't heard anything about problems associated with temperature extremes, but...
> 
> In the photos to which you linked, I see a trailer entirely unsuited to the boat it is supporting (not to mention the load of snow/ice). Even with the limited rocker/hull curvature, the two straight, flat trailer bunks cannot provide more than a few square inches of contact surface between the bunks and the hull.
> 
> ...


Hunter has already offered to fix his hull, which is nine years old, four years out of warranty. These boats cannot withstand storage in extreme temeperature swings due to the hull composition on the 170's and is stated in their manual.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Wow - way to go Hunter!


----------



## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

I am really surprised Hunter agreed to do anything. If you stored a cast iron bathtub outdoors, let it fill with rain and snow, and then let it freeze, it would crack to bits too. That's what seems to have happened to this uncovered, unsupported boat. If it's had nine years of this treatment and hasn't fallen apart, Hunter should be commended for building really tough hulls!


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

*Hunter Sailboat Hull Cracking*

I am happy to see all of the interest and feedback on this issue. There have been a number of questions and suggestions so I thought I would just lay out all of the facts and open this for more comments.

My Hunter 170 operating fine for many years. I always took good care of it and properly prepared it for each winter - and BTW, I've actually owned 30 different boats in my lifetime so I am not a novice at this.

One morning last winter, I got on my snowmobile (which is parked right next the the Hunter) and noticed the HUGE cracks that you see in my photos. I was shocked! There was only a light powder covering of snow on the boat and the hull was drained (with the plug still removed) and inclined on a bunk trailer that curves and cradles most of the hull (and much better than roller bunks for storage).

I started looking around the web to try to discover what might have gone wrong. Then I stumbled across a number of threads at HunterOwners.com. Dozens and dozens of Hunter owners had experienced the same problem over the years. If you want to see for yourself, just go over there and do a search on the words "crack" and "hull cracking".

Then I did some investigation of the material Hunter uses for these hulls - BASF Luran S. While Hunter claims this material is super strong and flexible in all of their marketing material, the one major deficiency it has is its high coefficient of thermal expansion. This means that the material is more likely to experience stress with every degree change in temperature. I guess that is why my Hunter 170 owners manual says that you shouldn't cover the boat with a "dark colored" tarp. A dark tarp would attract heat from the sun and cause the same, but opposite stress my boat experienced when the temperature at my house dropped about 25 degrees Celsius overnight.

I called Hunter's service department and they told me they wouldn't do anything for me because the 5 year warranty had expired. So I took them to Small Claims court in Canada because here (and in the US too I assume), a manufacturer cannot use the limits in an "expressed warranty" to avoid liability for defects in manufacturing and marketing. In the course of the pre-trial hearing, the rep from Hunter (and their law firm) would not accept any responsibility. The rep also told the judge that my boat was worth no more than $1,000 anyways (that's over 90% depreciation in 9 years BTW). The judge said I had enough evidence to proceed to trial but cautioned me that it might be costly for me to do so. I couldn't justify investing any more money into this piece of junk.

Days later, the Hunter rep said they would fix my boat (with no guarantee or warranty) if I paid to ship it to and from facility in Florida. I asked him why he thought i would want to spend $3,000 in shipping so that they could fix my boat that (he said in court) was worth only $1,000 - especially since I believed it would just crack again the next cold winter. He didn't reply. I've sent photos and letters to Hunter's VP of Marketing and Sales and also to their CEO. They just have yet to accept any responsibility and they continue to blame their customers for any problems they experience outside of the warranty period.

I've been warning other Hunter owners and prospective purchasers ever since.


----------



## bb74 (Feb 11, 2009)

I know I will probably come across as a bit (big?) of a jerk on this one but I have to say I find your notion of "properly prepared for winter" to be a bit tenuous to say the least. Mast directly on the ground under the boat, boat not even covered, hull still covered in grime, trailer on the dirt and tires not even on blocks... It is unfortunate that the boat is a goner and there is no certainty that a tarp, cover, cleaning etc would have helped on this issue, but at the same time you didn't help yourself with the winterizing....


----------



## Michael K (Feb 27, 2006)

I owned a smaller version also known as an H 90. It's a 9'+ sailing dinghy made from the same material. When not in use I stored it up side down on wooden blocks. In its stored position it never had more than a foot of snow on it, but one spring I, too, discovered severe cracking. In other words, it doesn't take improper storage for cracking to occur. All it takes is a fast drop in temperature.

The primary crack was nearly straight down the middle of the hull starting at the aft end of the daggerboard trunk and continuing to, and then up, the transom. There were also various smaller cracks that branched off from the primary crack.

I found online a paper, prepared by Hunter, describing how to mend the cracks using Devcon's "Plastic Welder". This is a two-part "plexus" unlike epoxy, obtainable at any Walmart. My first attempt to repair the cracks was not a complete success. The areas where the bond failed required that I grind out the hardened plexus and clean vigorously with acetone and a stiff brush. The second time around I bought several more tubes to repair the smaller area than I had originally obtained for the whole project and, fortunately, such liberal use did the trick. 

I bet it will work for you, too. It may not be fun, but you'll have a functional boat again. Once done, I suggest you immediately sell it to someone who lives in the South!


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

Sorry to hear you had the same problem with Hunter Marine hulls cracking in cold temperatures Michael K. I suspect you are right and that I could do some makeshift patchwork on the hull. However, i wouldn' feel comfortable sailing it anymore - judging by the extent of the cracking, I don't think the hull is structurally sound anymore. And I wouldn't want to sell the boat and subject another sailor to this poorly manufactured piece of junk!


----------



## Garffin (Oct 22, 2009)

Thank the Lord for my heavy,slow, very slow Bristol


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

For the dozens of you who have experienced mysterious and severe cracking of your Hunter ACP Hulls over the winter there is now a place to register you complaints. Interest in this issue is growing at BoatUS.com. They have started an investigation. Click here to register your own personal experience to assist in the investigation:
BoatUS Consumer Affairs : Consumer Complaint Database


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

scottbr said:


> Hunter has already offered to fix his hull, which is nine years old, four years out of warranty. These boats cannot withstand storage in extreme temeperature swings due to the hull composition on the 170's and is stated in their manual.


It would be interesting to see what warnings are in the manual, I'd bet its a pretty vague and un-actionable caveat.

More interesting would be what Hunter says in their marketing material, what they show to a prospective buyer, say to one who lives in Alaska. Only an owner sees the manual...and anything at that point is simly corporate CYA.


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

Sailingfool: Perhaps not surprisingly, Hunter neglects to mention anything about cold temperature cracking in their marketing material. Instead, they chose to highlight postive features. Here is a direct lift from their brochure:

*Impact resistant boat surface *
The outer plastic surface of the structure works in combination with urethane foam backing to provide nearly 5 times the impact resistance of traditional fiberglass. Instead of thin brittle coating on the outside, the ABS backed Luran-S plastic is both thick and flexible. When an ACP boat is struck by an impact, the outer skin will flex slightly to absorb the energy. Flexing is much better than breaking. Next, the urethane foam backing supports the skin and diffuses the impact energy through a large area. Finally, the fiberglass backing holds the structure intact, thus preventing significant damage. Where a fiberglass boat might have a large crack or hole, an ACP boat will suffer no more than a surface scratch


----------



## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

sailingfool said:


> It would be interesting to see what warnings are in the manual, I'd bet its a pretty vague and un-actionable caveat.
> 
> CYA.


In part, the manual states " severe cracking may occur, due to the structural composition of the hull materials, when exposed to extreme temperatures..." and elsewhere, in different but equally explicit language, it warns of freezing temperatures causing cracking.

Hunter, as has been mentioned already, has and is covering damage due specifically to storage in clear contravention of warnings clearly indicated. I can't think of too many, if any, other manufacturers who would provide such support.

Methinks this is just another veiled attempt at Hunter bashing.


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

http://www.sailing-obsession.com/H170 Manual.pdf

Hi K1vsk:

Above please find the link to a copy of the current Hunter 170 owners manual. Although mine is from 1998, the content is essentially the same. There is no warning that the boats might crack due to cold temperatures that I can see. Furthermore, isn't it a little too late to tell a cold climate customer that their boat might crack AFTER they purchase the boat and get handed their manual??????

And no, Hunter is NOT covering such damages as dozens of Hunter owners contest in numerous sailing forums. Just check out Hunterowners.com and search the forums under the term "hull crack".


----------



## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Wundrbar
I infer Hunter has not responded to your satisfaction but I do know of a few folks, my son included, who have received excellent response from them including covering the damage to a boat FAR beyond it's 5 year warranty lifetime. Obviously I have no idea about your circumstance but success is often a function of how you ask. I'm not implying you were anything but professional but often these complaints are from people who make totally unreasonable demands and then complain about the treatment they self-inflicted upon themselves. Regardless, I would agree these warnings should have been done from the outset but then again, so should Toyota have done a better job prospectively in addressing their accelerator issues... another "too late" warning better now than never?

Re the manual, the only date I noted in your link was 2003, presumably prior to these issues arising? The current manual I have read is as I described not that it helps you any more than a new Toyota manual would help prior year owners forsee that issue.


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

Hi K1vsk:

I hear your point about ensuring the people take the proper approach initially with Hunter in order to get a favourable and appropriate response. In my case, I went through their normal customer service channels. It was only when they refused to do ANYTHING for me that I got more aggressive including taking them to Small Claims court here in Ontario.

I would be very interested in getting a copy of their latest owner manual. It appears they are admitting they have a problem with the ACP construction materials finally. If you are willing to somehow get a copy of it to me, I would be happy to cover any costs to do so (copying, postage, etc.). Just let me know. Thanks.


----------



## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

The manual is my son's and therefore not readily available to me. I will be visiting him mid-February and will bring a copy of it home. If you are still without it by the end of Feb., send me a private message and I'll scan the relevant parts for you.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

wundrbar said:


> Hi K1vsk:
> In my case, I went through their normal customer service channels. It was only when they *refused to do ANYTHING* for me that I got more aggressive including taking them to Small Claims court here in Ontario.


Wundrbar,

Lets stop the games. Your statement above is misleading and you know it. Eddie Breeden of Hunter offered to FIX your WELL out of warranty hull.

All you had to do was ship it to Hunter for a free fix. Hmm, a boat, years out of warranty, and the company is going to fix it for free...  Seems like a fair deal to me?

You thought the request, that you get your out of warranty boat to them, for the FREE repair, was a ridiculous request so here you are, still bashing Hunter for not fixing your boat that was well beyond and out of warranty and also stored uncovered and filled with snow in Canada...

The whole story, your words, is on SBO and YOU openly admited that Eddie offered to fix your hull but that you were unwilling to eat the shipping cost or find a creative way to get your 17 footer to them for a FREE repair.

Now you're over here saying Hunter "refused to do ANYTHING"...



wundrbar said:


> *The boat was 9 years old. The "expressed" hull warranty from Hunter is 5 years.* However, here in Canada (and many US states as well), there are laws to protect consumers from defective goods and deceptive practices and these invalidate any manufacturer's attempts to limit liability to defined terms.





wundrbar said:


> Sorry just getting caught up on this thread. I can't help but share my thoughts when I read the comment about Eddie Breeden. *Talking to Eddie reminds me of why I DISLIKE these guys so much. He's the guy who said he would fix my defective Hunter 170 if I paid to SHIP it to Florida and back.*


Even at nine years old, or four years out of warranty, Hunter offered to fix this boat. Take a look below at how it was taken care of. Also check out the spar storage. There is neglect and there are manufacturer issues. I think Hunter went above and beyond offering to fix this hull for you in lieu of you simply getting it to them..

Photo From Wundrbar's Album:
Picasa Web Albums - p.eisenschmid - CanonEPP070204


----------



## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Interesting clarification of the REAL story here. Thanks for giving me a heads-up MaineSail so I don't waste any more of my time on this.


----------



## krozet (Nov 29, 2008)

k1vsk said:


> Wundrbar
> I infer Hunter has not responded to your satisfaction but I do know of a few folks, my son included, who have received excellent response from them including covering the damage to a boat FAR beyond it's 5 year warranty lifetime. Obviously I have no idea about your circumstance but success is often a function of how you ask. I'm not implying you were anything but professional but often these complaints are from people who make totally unreasonable demands and then complain about the treatment they self-inflicted upon themselves. Regardless, I would agree these warnings should have been done from the outset but then again, so should Toyota have done a better job prospectively in addressing their accelerator issues... another "too late" warning better now than never?
> 
> Re the manual, the only date I noted in your link was 2003, presumably prior to these issues arising? The current manual I have read is as I described not that it helps you any more than a new Toyota manual would help prior year owners forsee that issue.


Ummm... What does the Toyota reference have to do with anything? Toyota isn't requiring owners to take their products back to the factory too be fixed. Many cars have issues that crop up over the years that need to be fixed due to safety issues caused by inferior parts or workmanship. They are all fixed free of charge at your local dealership. And these safety issues can crop up WELL AFTER the warranty is expired but that doesn't change the fact that they are FIXED BY THE MANUFACTURER.

Since we are throwing around specious comparisons I suppose if I sell you a hot water heater that has a faulty T&P valve that can cause it to explode; you as the customer should bring it back to me if it is out of warranty to be fixed? Of course I will fix it for free at a location convenient to me...


----------



## krozet (Nov 29, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> Wundrbar,
> 
> Lets stop the games. Your statement above is misleading and you know it. Eddie Breeden of Hunter offered to FIX your WELL out of warranty hull.
> 
> ...


Your point of view...

Personally I agree with the OP. Telling a customer that a defective product needs to be shipped at the expense of more than 3 times the value of the product (stated by the manufacturer) is a little ludicrous. Especially given that the defect was not stated during purchase or in followup literature, I mean it's not too hard to imagine that the temperature might fluctuate outside... If at anytime the manufacturer had revised care and storage requirements for the product then I can see an argument but to follow the business practice of 'sell it and forget it' is pathetic and stupid in the litigious environment we live in.

And if storage was the issue why wouldn't Hunter just point to that in court and cry foul? It seems that you are muddying up the facts as much as the OP is.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

krozet said:


> Your point of view...
> 
> Personally I agree with the OP. Telling a customer that a defective product needs to be shipped at the expense of more than 3 times the value of the product (stated by the manufacturer) is a little ludicrous. Especially given that the defect was not stated during purchase or in followup literature, I mean it's not too hard to imagine that the temperature might fluctuate outside... If at anytime the manufacturer had revised care and storage requirements for the product then I can see an argument but to follow the business practice of 'sell it and forget it' is pathetic and stupid in the litigious environment we live in.
> 
> And if storage was the issue why wouldn't Hunter just point to that in court and cry foul? It seems that you are muddying up the facts as much as the OP is.


Did Hunter dictate how the boat was to ship, who would ship it or what the cost needed to be? My neighbor hips her car from Maine to Florida and back each year for $650.00. There are always shipping options and I have seen trailered boats shipping on car haulers many times.

Muddying the facts? I quoted Wundrbar's own "facts". He said, here on Sailnet, they/Hunter: *"refused to do ANYTHING*". That is factually untrue, based on his OWN admittance and own words, on this and another forum. They offered to fix his hull. His only responsibility was to get it there. That is not opinion it is exactly what Wundrbar wrote, before he said... *"refused to do ANYTHING*"...

There's no doubt these hulls have issues but Hunter has repaired and or replaced many of them and they offered to fix Wundrbar's even four years out of warranty. Very few manufacturers cover shipping costs in the warranty period, let alone out of the warranty period by almost double..


----------



## krozet (Nov 29, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> Muddying the facts? I quoted Wundrbar's own "facts".


Really? I didn't see you quote where hunter required him to ship a 17 foot boat from Canada to Florida to get his 'free' repair, perhaps I missed it?

So you have a friend that ships a car from Maine to Florida... That is NOT the same as shipping a 17 foot boat that looks like it will fall apart at speed with some bumps. No reputable shipper is going to put that on a trailer and send it to Florida, it is going to require some strapping or something. Then there is the Boarder to cross where you can incur brokerage fees, paperwork needed, time wasted...

Don't get me wrong, I have no horse in this race. It's just a tad hypocritical to point out that the OP is not giving all the information and then do the same thing by quoting 'most' of the situation... 

Oh and since Hunter hasn't made an issue of the storage, why are you? If this was a one off event then hey, shame on the OP but this is not the only 170 to have this problem. Its a defect, not a storage issue. Perhaps the storage exacerbated the situation but that does not change the fact that it is a manufactures defect.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

krozet said:


> Really? I didn't see you quote where hunter required him to ship a 17 foot boat from Canada to Florida to get his 'free' repair, perhaps I missed it?


The part about Florida was in one of Wundrbar's quotes, in my post.

As in:



wundrbar said:


> Sorry just getting caught up on this thread. I can't help but share my thoughts when I read the comment about Eddie Breeden. *Talking to Eddie reminds me of why I DISLIKE these guys so much. He's the guy who said he would fix my defective Hunter 170 if I paid to SHIP it to Florida and back.*


----------



## Danny33 (Nov 21, 2007)

Customs , fuel surcharges , Its over with, weight considerations , freight transfers ... add the bucks !

Put a ton of wet snow beyond your bracing under your boat ....some things gotta give ! where is the cover ? 

Im not a hunter fan at all ... Whats it going to cost to replace the one you have , ship it out or repair it your self ? 

You have to feather out the crack and fill it with Hunter advice ...Just flow ! Have your friends over drink beer cook out and it gets done !

Just dont drink beer till the work is done .


----------



## krozet (Nov 29, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> The part about Florida was in one of Wundrbar's quotes, in my post.
> 
> As in:


Let me get my other glasses.... looking for shipping across international boarder.... Looking for the location 'Ontario', which is in Canada..... Nope, still don't see it. Even increasing the size of the text doesn't seem to reveal the missing text. Maybe I am still missing something?

Obviously there is more to the story but AGAIN it is *Hypocritical* of you _Maine Sail_ to point out that there is part of the story missing and then fail to mention that the key issue seems to be that free repair of the boat requires shipping the boat at the cost of the OP from Ontario, Canada to Florida. You quoted the OP that he could get a free repair if he paid to ship the product to Florida, would have been so hard to point out that the OP was in Canada and quote all the facts? Shipping from Canada might be a bit more of a hassle then shipping from Georgia or Texas!

Selectively leaving out key pieces of information is the same thing you are accusing the OP of doing. If you don't see that, then we will have to agree to disagree. Again I don't care one way or another.

There are better things to be doing than arguing on the internet.  I for one am going to go work on my maintenance plans for April when my boat will be splashed.

Fair Winds to all.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

krozet said:


> Let me get my other glasses.... looking for shipping across international boarder.... Looking for the location 'Ontario', which is in Canada..... Nope, still don't see it. Even increasing the size of the text doesn't seem to reveal the missing text. Maybe I am still missing something?
> 
> Obviously there is more to the story but AGAIN it is *Hypocritical* of you _Maine Sail_ to point out that there is part of the story missing and then fail to mention that the key issue seems to be that free repair of the boat requires shipping the boat at the cost of the OP from Ontario, Canada to Florida.


Krozet,

You are entitled to your opinion and if you want to call my "hypocritical" that's fine. I was in no way trying to hide or omit the Canada portion. Why would I, when it is clearly stated two or three times in this thread alone that he lives in Ontario? If I was to purposely do that I would then have to assume no one on Sailnet can read, which I know they can..

The fact remains that Wundrbar lives in Canada, and also, that this is no secret. It was mentioned a number of times in this thread, that he lives in Ontario, Canada. Anyone who reads the thread would know that.

To satisfy your curiosity of my quoting, here is the ENTIRE post that I quoted the shipping portion from. It was posted on SBO 10/9/09.



wundrbar said:


> Sorry just getting caught up on this thread. I can't help but share my thoughts when I read the comment about Eddie Breeden. Talking to Eddie reminds me of why I DISLIKE these guys so much. He's the guy who said he would fix my defective Hunter 170 if I paid to SHIP it to Florida and back. Shipping a boat is very expensive. He is the one who told the small claims judge that my boat had depreciated 90% in 9 years. He is the guy who blamed ME for the mysterious winter cracking of my hull even though dozens of this forum's readers have had the same problem. So, Franklin, take what "Eddie" says with a very BIG grain of salt and maybe start looking at another manufacturer's option.


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

I appreciate the support Krozet. As for Maine Sail, you should double check your facts before suggesting a fellow sailor is not telling the truth. Here are the facts. I gave Hunter a chance to rectify the problem by escalating my claim through their Service Call Centre - right up to Eddie Breedon. They refused to do ANYTHING for me. I then took them to Small Claims Court in Ontario. Hunter was represented by a Toronto law firm and Eddie Breedon. Again, Hunter claimed NO RESPONSIBILITY and offered NO RECTIFICATION. Eddie also claimed that my boat was only worth $1,000 (I assume to minimize the potential damage claim). It was only 5 days AFTER the pre-trail hearing that Eddie off offered to fix the boat in Florida (WITH NO GUARANTEE ON THE REPAIRS). I asked him if he thought it would be a responsible financial decision to pay $3,000 to ship a boat worth only $1,000 to/from Florida to be fixed with NO GUARANTEE especially since all my evidence showed that Hunter boats crack in extreme temperatures - and I live in Canada? He didn't respond. 

Reputable manufacturers stand behind their products and protect customers from manufacturing defects - long after expressed warranties expire. We see this every week with products like cars, headache remedies, baby seats, food products, toys, etc. Why won't Hunter look after its customers? Why do they place the financial burden and responsibility on their customers?


----------



## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Many other people, with the same exact issue, have had their hulls (as abused as yours obviously was) repaired by Hunter or at Hunter's expense. I think most of us realize any manufacturer, of any product, would not be in business today if it's business practices was as you portray.


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

K1vsk: If Hunter is so willing to look after its customers, how do you explain their refusal to stand up and take ownership for MY issue, and the issue of dozens of other Hunter owners with ACP hulls? Do they spin a roulette wheel to determine who they take care of? And as for looking after my boat, I have owned 30 boats in my lifetime of all makes and models, shapes and sizes and I have NEVER, EVER experienced this kind of problem with such a horrendous product and abysmal service as I have encountered with Hunter Marine.


----------



## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

_I don't doubt it.

_


----------



## kevinH23 (Mar 3, 2010)

wundrbar said:


> You got that right TheFrog! the Hunter plastic hull can't handle temperature changes. And worse, their customer service is the pits. Instead of admitting to a manufacturing defect, Hunter Marine agents just blame their customers and give them instructions on how to fix their boats. Last Hunter I will ever buy!


I'm not sure any hull would stand up to being left full of water in such cold climates....thats what the drain plug is for! Left the water out so it doesn't freeze and expand. The cracks are clearly from expansion and if the cracks "mysteriously" shrank when it thawed out that would prove the hull was left outside in the winter with lots of water in it.


----------



## gemerson (Mar 3, 2010)

*Hunter Plastic Boats*

Plastic is sensitive to extreme tempuratures and the way it is stored, handled and used in extreme climates can have an effect on it. Whether that is stated in the owners manual or not that is the case with plastic. There are many variables that have to be considered when determining if something is warranty. Hunter does not spin a roulette wheel but every case is different and has to be analized on any issue before it is determined to be a warranty issue. The first determining factory is the age of the boat and whether is still has an active warranty. The particular boat in question was nine yrs old and had been out of warranty for four yrs. Had this boat been within the five year warranty I am sure that Hunter would have handled it different even if the storage had some effect. However it was not, it was nine yrs old. I know of no boat, none, within the warranty that Hunter has refused to stand behind their product if it was cleary a warranty issue. If that were the case they wouldn't continue be the largest sailboat manufacturer in North America nor would Hunter have been able to build over 12,000 plastic boats since the 1990's to now. Currently Hunter is actively working with several plastic boat owners whose boats are under warranty and resolving their various issues whatever they may be.

I do know that Hunter no longer makes the plastic boats. In fact last year they began the slow process of switching their trailerable line from plastic to fiberglass. The reason is that the plastic operation was done at a different facility than where their keelboats were built. They wanted to bring their entire operation under one roof but did not have the room for the thermoform process to be moved so they designed new new small boat molds to be built out of fiberglass and moved the entire process. They plan to unveil the new boats sometime in April.

gemerson


----------



## JimHawkins (Aug 25, 2006)

Gemerson,
You seem to have a bit of inside information on Hunter. If you have any affiliation or interest in the boating industry or in Hunter you are required to disclose it. Please edit your post and provide the relevant information.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

gemerson said:


> analized


That may very well be the most accurate depiction of how many warranty claims are handled ever written.

As per the rest of this whole sorry he-said/ Hunter-said fiasco, kudos to hunter for offering to repair the boat. Yeah you have to ship it to Florida, so what? EVERY warranted product i have purchased in the last three decades or so has had a warranty that clearly states that shipping of a defective product to a service center or the manufacturer is the responsibility of the customer.

Hunter allegedly said the boat was worth $1000. They are probably right. Did the company offer you $1000 to go away? If so, what was your response?

The boat is out of warranty.
They offered to fix it.
You balked.
They don't make them any more.
No one else is going to get hurt.
Quit chirpin'.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Additionally, looking at the photos, and recalling what the weather in Ontario was like last winter, and looking at the photos of the trailer which was never meant for that boat, and looking at the way the cracks appear to radiate from the bunks of the trailer,and looking at the abysmal way the boat was cared for, I'm no engineer, but I place a great deal of the responsibility on the owner. a boat full of snow is going to stress the hell out of the improperly supported hull.

I am surprised it didn't happen sooner.


----------



## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

I would tend to think that the thermal expansion problem is bigger than the issue of hull flex due to snow loading. Of course both are going to be a factor here; but it's easy to under-estimate the effect of thermal expansion on material stress. It seems to me that Hunter first changed it's instruction manual to say "don't store in cold climate" and then ultimately decided to change their construction method to eliminate this headache from their line. If a boat owner of a 9' or a 17' boat (new or used) has the hull fail they are less likely to buy a bigger shiny new Hunter when the time comes to upgrade. Personally I can't see why a company like Hunter does not recall/replace all of the cracked hulls just to get their name off of the side of a boat that looks like a smashed egg for product association/marketing purposes. Regardless of the why's; I think Hunter should at least offer an no-profit (materials+labor+destination) replacement for the cracked hulls; so they can get these boats off the "used" market. What will they do when a repaired hull fails while sailing and people are injured or worse?


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

There is not a lot more I can say hear than isn't already covered in this or other threads about Hunter's ACP hulls which crack in the cold - whether it is my case or the dozens of other Hunter owners who have had the same thing happen to them. But let me try to be succinct. 
1. The drain plug had been removed and the hull was properly drained. 
2. There was no "snow load". All we had was 3 inches of fresh powder snow
3. The bunk trailer provided sufficient cradling. In fact, this was the second winter that the boat had been in the EXACT same position since I hadn't even used the boat the previous sailing season. The only difference was the fast and severe temperature drop that week.
4. No Hunter didn't offer to give me $1,000 for the boat.
5. Finally, and most importantly, I understand that consumers often have to return goods to the manufacturer to have them fixed. That's OK with toasters and radios - but for a SAILBOAT!! Come on. How many people have to ship their cars to Japan or Mexico to get them fixed when the manufacturer agrees that they have a responsibility to fix a problem?
The saddest part of all of this is that clearly Hunter KNOWS they have a manufacturing problem with these plastic boats. This is proven by the fact that they have updated their owners manuals to warn new customers and that they now plan on scrapping their plastic daysailor line of boats. Yet, they are NOT taking proper care of customers who have had the misfortune of experiencing cold temperature hull cracking AFTER the 5 year warranty period. Shame on Hunter!


----------



## krozet (Nov 29, 2008)

KeelHaulin said:


> What will they do when a repaired hull fails while sailing and people are injured or worse?


The same thing that Toyota did, blame it on the owner.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Look, let's call it what it is- the bastard lovechild of a Snark and a Walker bay dinghy- the worst of aspects of rotomoulding and the best aspects of foam. If the hull fails it will still float. Let's not get as ludicrous as Toyota drivers who cannot differentiate between the brake pedal and the accelerator. Ask any teenager in the world if "unintended acceleration" is possible. 

Yeah, I'm blaming the owner. Now whut?


----------



## kevinH23 (Mar 3, 2010)

gemerson said:


> Plastic is sensitive to extreme tempuratures and the way it is stored, handled and used in extreme climates can have an effect on it. Whether that is stated in the owners manual or not that is the case with plastic. There are many variables that have to be considered when determining if something is warranty. Hunter does not spin a roulette wheel but every case is different and has to be analized on any issue before it is determined to be a warranty issue. The first determining factory is the age of the boat and whether is still has an active warranty. The particular boat in question was nine yrs old and had been out of warranty for four yrs. Had this boat been within the five year warranty I am sure that Hunter would have handled it different even if the storage had some effect. However it was not, it was nine yrs old. I know of no boat, none, within the warranty that Hunter has refused to stand behind their product if it was cleary a warranty issue. If that were the case they wouldn't continue be the largest sailboat manufacturer in North America nor would Hunter have been able to build over 12,000 plastic boats since the 1990's to now. Currently Hunter is actively working with several plastic boat owners whose boats are under warranty and resolving their various issues whatever they may be.
> 
> I do know that Hunter no longer makes the plastic boats. In fact last year they began the slow process of switching their trailerable line from plastic to fiberglass. The reason is that the plastic operation was done at a different facility than where their keelboats were built. They wanted to bring their entire operation under one roof but did not have the room for the thermoform process to be moved so they designed new new small boat molds to be built out of fiberglass and moved the entire process. They plan to unveil the new boats sometime in April.
> 
> gemerson


Gemerson,

From what I've read, Hunter has made good efforts to resolve ACP issues. Offering to replace the hull for an out of warranty boat is certainly a good offer. My Hunter 170 is a 99' model and has seen plenty of misuse and abuse and cold winters (Washington DC and Ohio) yet it has no cracks other than a 3 inch hairline crack where a cleat was used incorrectly to hoist the entire boat off it's trailer. This boat also was once blown over while parked on it's trailer, the previous owner didn't secure the furling jib and it caught a 50 mph gust and blew over in the storage lot. The jib was shredded and the hull only had two 4 inch scratches and a 1 inch deep ding where it hit the parking lot.

I suppose that some early hulls had some cracking issues when subjected to cold/ice but have seen few reports on newer models. The change back to fiberglass hulls instead of ACP might be better for marketing but certainly is not a cheaper process.


----------



## kevinH23 (Mar 3, 2010)

wundrbar said:


> There is not a lot more I can say hear than isn't already covered in this or other threads about Hunter's ACP hulls which crack in the cold - whether it is my case or the dozens of other Hunter owners who have had the same thing happen to them. But let me try to be succinct.
> 1. The drain plug had been removed and the hull was properly drained.
> 2. There was no "snow load". All we had was 3 inches of fresh powder snow
> 3. The bunk trailer provided sufficient cradling. In fact, this was the second winter that the boat had been in the EXACT same position since I hadn't even used the boat the previous sailing season. The only difference was the fast and severe temperature drop that week.
> ...


While I'm sympathetic about your boat cracking, I can't imagine why you wouldn't take the offer to replace the hull. Did you ask Hunter to ship you a new hull and let a local Hunter dealer in Canada transfer your rigging to the new hull? Then you would only be paying for shipping one way?

After looking at your posted photos, I was just wondering why your other boat in the background was tarped up and had over a foot of snow piled up on it but your sailboat was uncovered, mast laying on the ground???

If my 11 year old hull ever cracks like that and Hunter offered an out of warranty replacement....I would totally take them up on it. A used ten year old 170 still brings $3-5K here in the US. Did the replacement hull come with a 5 year warranty?


----------



## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Out of curiosity, I wanted to see what similar Hunter owners had to say about this issue and was surprised to see no one with that screen name ever posted his complaint there which would seem to be the logical place to do so. 
At a minimum, he might have learned if and how other owners experienced similar issues and how they dealt with them. 
Wouldn't that be the constructive approach Wundrbar?


----------



## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Repair not replace...and No, no warranty

Due to the nature of this material...Its not as if any boat yard is going to want to even touch it...rather hunter was paying the bill or not...so the factory is the only real option.

I agree they should recall the whole line and offer a depreciated value on the item...in this case 1000.00 toward a new boat or take the cash settlement.

It was a bad engineering marriage..We cant fault them for that...but they know it now...if it is not, they or someone else will return to it....I doubt that now.

Id buy a hunter..( not this construction) I don't see what all the bashing has really been about all these years....they fill a cheap entry niche...cheap will always come at a price...That's why we Americans like walmart after all.....But I don't expect my Walmart wrench set to out live my Snap On....Just saying ...some things are throwaways even in the boating world...Id say these particular hulls are one of those....Buy one of their real boats next time..


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Stillraining said:


> ....Buy one of their real boats next time..


I'm not a moderator here, but I'm going to call you on this one. It's fine to have an opinion and criticize things like lack of a tarp, but this last statement goes over the line. He paid real money intending to buy a real boat. I think you went over the line here.


----------



## kevinH23 (Mar 3, 2010)

Stillraining said:


> Repair not replace...and No, no warranty
> 
> Due to the nature of this material...Its not as if any boat yard is going to want to even touch it...rather hunter was paying the bill or not...so the factory is the only real option.
> 
> ...


Not sure if you have bothered to price a new daysailer lately but for nearly $10K they ought to be considered a "real boat". They process of building an boat that meets all the EPA restrictions are expensive no matter what size the boat. ACP has its advantages and drawbacks just like any other material.


----------



## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Tongue in cheek boys...tongue in cheek...see the wink in my post?..That's Internet talk for just Kidding or what ever else you want to uses for a kind hearted ribbing...("Ribbing" :rib - a teasing remark ) ...Toughen up gents...................................There I go again..

Price has nothing to do with it either...

If I pulled out my fist computer, (that I still have by the way stored in the corner of the garage on the concrete floor..LOL )..The one I paid the most money for out of any of its future replacments..4500.00...with a whopping 40 megs of hard dive, 16 mhz of processing speed ( I think)..yada yada ..you would tell me to get rid of that and get a real computer...would you not?...

Bad engineering experiment...times change and they are moving away from the concept...tough pill to swallow I know...but there it is....Its a bad deal for those that are now living with the aftermath....Id like my 4500.00 back as well.......this is why i said that hunter should recall all of them and give you all that are unhappy with them what its depreciated value is...I just happen to agree with Hunter that in the OP's case that's about 1000 bucks after 9 years.

No apology necessary................................I'll take a grand in a heart beat, If IBM was offering...


----------



## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

RhythmDoctor said:


> I'm not a moderator here, but I'm going to call you on this one. It's fine to have an opinion and criticize things like lack of a tarp, but this last statement goes over the line. He paid real money intending to buy a real boat. I think you went over the line here.


He bought a boat that has a 5 year warranty, and is now 12 years old. I don't know about anyone else here, but in my line of work we do not give car owners new engines or new bodies when their cars are 7 years out of warranty! We would be out of business. They gotta pay to get them fixed, and so does the original poster with the 170.

Sorry dude, you kept a plastic boat that was engineered in Florida, in inland Canada where extreme temperature swings are expected in winter. you're SOL and get no sympathy from me. Maybe stop whining and buy a nice GRP boat to replace it.


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

You got me there eMKAY. I guess I expected too much from my plastic Hunter 170. I expected that when a company like Hunter sells a boat in Canada, they make sure it doesn't shatter when the temperature drops to minus 25 degrees in the winter - regardless of the age of the boat. After all, who would expect the temperature in Canada to fall so low???!!!


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

K1vsk. Yes the constructive approach would have been to see how many others have experienced the same shattering of their Hunter ACP hulls over the years. And that's what I did first. That's when i found out that dozens and dozens of Hunter Owners have had the same experience over the last 10 years. Just go to HunterOwners.com and do a search on "crack hull". And check the archives too - if they still have them posted. The moderator and Hunter friend, Phil Herring, banned me because I didn't have anything nice to say about Hunter, its boats or its customer service team. If you can't find them, I have printouts I would be happy to share with everyone.


----------



## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

wundrbar said:


> K1vsk. Yes the constructive approach would have been to see how many others have experienced the same shattering of their Hunter ACP hulls over the years. And that's what I did first. That's when i found out that dozens and dozens of Hunter Owners have had the same experience over the last 10 years. Just go to HunterOwners.com and do a search on "crack hull". And check the archives too - if they still have them posted. The moderator and Hunter friend, Phil Herring, banned me because I didn't have anything nice to say about Hunter, its boats or its customer service team. If you can't find them, I have printouts I would be happy to share with everyone.


There are hundreds of posts regarding hull cracks, most of which have to do with Catalina keels, swing keels ,Com Pacs, bad fairing jobs, etc and nothing regarding what you describe. Could have been deleted but not sure why anyone would bother to waste the time retrospectively to do that. 
Wonder if all those posters have also been banned???


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

wundrbar said:


> And check the archives too - if they still have them posted. The moderator and Hunter friend, Phil Herring, banned me because I didn't have anything nice to say about Hunter, its boats or its customer service team. If you can't find them, I have printouts I would be happy to share with everyone.


Nothing has been deleted at SBO except for you. All your posts are still there. If you are going to slander Phil Herring, and make stuff up about him that is not true, perhaps you should be on permanent vacation from Sailnet too.

I notice that here on Sailnet you have also not participated in any discussion that did not include Hunter bashing. That behavior, when deemed egregious, is called trolling on the SBO family of sites and is a banable offense.

Phil WAS NOT taking a Hunter side as there are many, many, many threads & posts on the SBO family of sites that are of a negative tone towards hunter and other brands for that matter.

I also challenge you to come up with 24 different members, by screen name, as you have stated "dozens and dozens" who have had ACP hull cracks. If you are going to publicly continue to bash Hunter we want links to threads on ANY forum where there is a discussion of ACP hulls cracking. It is only fair as your behavior is getting a touch ridiculous at this point.

As a point of reference Hunter has produced 12,000 of these plastic boats. You claim "dozens and dozens", which you have not backed up or shown to be true, but even if we take your "dozens and dozens" at face value, 24 boats, that is a failure rate of just .2% or a 99.8% success rate. I can't think of very many products ever made that have a 99.8% lack of failure..

You were only banned AFTER being warned and asked to participate in the forums beyond just your ONE SUBJECT of Hunter bashing. SBO has rules, those rules specifically prohibit trolling, which is the definition you fit by only coming to SBO to bash Hunter. You never once participated in ANY other discussion of sailing or boat ownership other than to bash Hunter. You were NOT banned because Phil is a "Hunter friend" you were only banned after being warned and then only after you flat out ignored the request and warning.

Phil is a very, very fair guy you and about three other people are the only people to have permanent bans at SBO so it;s not like we need to do this all the time. We ALWAYS give a fair warning, which you blatantly ignored.


----------



## speciald (Mar 27, 2007)

Hunter is in finacial straights. They have closed their St. Augustine facility and moved their trawler construction to the Luhrs yard in New Jersey. Like Catalina, they are struggleing to survive in the current economic climate.


----------



## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*Hunters are junk...Hunters are very bad.*

Now Does anyone have a 50 footer they want to give me................Ok Prudy Pleeeese!


----------



## kevinH23 (Mar 3, 2010)

wundrbar said:


> You got me there eMKAY. I guess I expected too much from my plastic Hunter 170. I expected that when a company like Hunter sells a boat in Canada, they make sure it doesn't shatter when the temperature drops to minus 25 degrees in the winter - regardless of the age of the boat. After all, who would expect the temperature in Canada to fall so low???!!!


My 99 Hunter 170 does just fine in Ohio where it gets well below zero every winter too. Regardless of how cold the climate, I would never leave a boat full of ice and snow and leave the mast laying on the ground like you did wundrbar! If you covered it the snow wouldn't melt, refreeze, thaw, freeze again and expand. Even with the hull plug open a lot of water can collect if a 170 is left parked level on it's trailer (as shown in your photos) which would certainly freeze in your climate. Abuse any boat like you did and you'll have problems eventually. If the manufacturer was at fault it would have happened the first winter of extreme cold. My boat has endured 11 winters in Ohio and Virginia with no cracks due to cold.


----------



## kevinH23 (Mar 3, 2010)

Stillraining said:


> *Hunters are junk...Hunters are very bad.*
> 
> Now Does anyone have a 50 footer they want to give me................Ok Prudy Pleeeese!


So what brand do you think is perfect???


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

kevinH23 said:


> So what brand do you think is perfect???


Kevin,

Read the last sentence in your quote.. He was KIDDING!!!

P.S. The perfect boat has not been built yet and probably never will be....


----------



## gemerson (Mar 3, 2010)

*Hunter Marine Finacial Status*

Speciald .....Wow there! Hunter Marine is far from being in financial difficulty as you describe. Yes, it has been a very challenging eighteen months for all the marine industry and that's both power and sail. The Luhrs Marine Group just like all builders have streamlined every aspect of production and been forced to make critical and hard business decisions. Of the four companies within the LMG, which include Silverton, Mainship, Luhrs & Hunter........Hunter has remained the most profitable of the four. A tough decision was made to consolidate the power companies and move them to NJ where the Silverton facility is located. This was done as an effort to be more productive and efficient. The property in St. Augustine, FL is indeed for sale and that when sold will be infused back into the company. What I can tell you is that of all the keelboat manufacturers in North America, Hunter Marine is building and shipping more product than any of her competitors. How do I know that? It's my job to know. I don't say that to beat on anyone, we have good competitors, but only to point out Hunter Marine's status. It has been a very difficult time for all boat builders and Hunter included but Hunter has been through tough economies before (although none like this) and they are one of the survivors. In an effort to help keep facts straight as opposed to hearsay I invite anyone to call me anytime. My office number is at 386-462-3629.

Greg Emerson
Hunter Marine Corporation 
Market Development Manager


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, the hunter 170 has a problem with the hulls cracking. It usually happens when people abuse the boat. How exactly is abuse the fault of the manufacturer?


----------



## kevinH23 (Mar 3, 2010)

Maine Sail said:


> Kevin,
> 
> Read the last sentence in your quote.. He was KIDDING!!!
> 
> P.S. The perfect boat has not been built yet and probably never will be....


I just didn't "get it" that he was being sarcastic.....


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

kevinH23 said:


> I just didn't "get it" that he was being sarcastic.....


..And there is the problem with the typed word(s)... Kevin you're simply too new here to know some of our long-time members' personalities and senses of humour.

Still's got one of the better ones, and is definitely a good guy...


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

I accept your challenge Maine Sail. I will spend some time this long Easter weekend digging through my printed copies of all the complaints I compiled about Hunter ACP hulls that mysteriously cracked catastrophically in cold temperatures and I will post these blog names on this site. Keep in mind, these will be the names these individuals used at HunterOwners.com so I don't know if they use(d) the same names here. I am also repeating my offer to share physical copies on this history of complaints with anyone who wants to see them.


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

Oh, and one more thing Maine Sail, it is commonly understood that for every customer that actually takes the time to tell others about their miserabe customer service experiences, there are at least another dozen or so that choose not to waste their time. So your calculations about the defect rate of Hunter boats is severely understated. Plus, more importantly, I don't care if a company manufactures only 1 faulty product - they should take care of their customers if they want to stay in business.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

sailingdog said:


> Yes, the hunter 170 has a problem with the hulls cracking. It usually happens when people abuse the boat. How exactly is abuse the fault of the manufacturer?


SD,

I gotta say that something like a third of the boats in the local yard are stored for the winter uncovered...neglectful.... maybe...abuse, I think that is a harsh opinion...then again, I've done it myself once or twice.

When the underlying problem is simply cold weather, questioning owner abuse just clouds the heart-rending engineering incompetence.

Just my opinion.


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

If you want winter abuse i will show you abuse


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

wundrbar said:


> Oh, and one more thing Maine Sail, it is commonly understood that for every customer that actually takes the time to tell others about their miserabe customer service experiences, there are at least another dozen or so that choose not to waste their time. So your calculations about the defect rate of Hunter boats is severely understated. Plus, more importantly, I don't care if a company manufactures only 1 faulty product - they should take care of their customers if they want to stay in business.


So any manufacturer who makes any product should cover said item for the lifetime of the product?

Let's not forget that your hull survived LONG after the stated warranty expired and Hunter still offered to fix it at a time frame that was nearly double that of the stated warranty.

Again, Hunter made 12,000 +/- ACP boats and the vast majority never had a hull defect or failure.

Your arguments are completely unrealistic IMHO. They agreed to fix your boat long after the warranty expired and you would not even cough up the funds to get it there and still insist it was their duty to also provide your hull transportation to and from the factory to fix a boat who's warranty had expired about four years prior..

Let's also not forget that Boat US decided your arguments were unrealistic and they to failed to see any basis for an investigation..

What do you do for work that you feel everyone's products / services should be covered in perpetuity??


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

Glad you asked. I have been in product marketing for over 20 years so I know what it takes to build a successful brand - and Hunter is an excellent case study of what NOT to do. Yes I do expect Hunter to fix a severe manufacturing defect long after their own 'expressed warranty" period expires. For example, the other boat in my pictures is a Sea Ray and they offer a lifetime warranty on something as basic and critical as a boat hull. As for Hunter's offer to fix the damages, they should either pay to have the boat shipped to/from their manufacturing facility or they should arrange to have one of their local dealers take on the job - THAT is how reputable firms handle these kinds of issues.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

wundrbar said:


> Glad you asked. I have been in product marketing for over 20 years so I know what it takes to build a successful brand - and Hunter is an excellent case study of what NOT to do. Yes I do expect Hunter to fix a severe manufacturing defect long after their own 'expressed warranty" period expires. For example, the other boat in my pictures is a Sea Ray and they offer a lifetime warranty on something as basic and critical as a boat hull. As for Hunter's offer to fix the damages, they should either pay to have the boat shipped to/from their manufacturing facility or they should arrange to have one of their local dealers take on the job - THAT is how reputable firms handle these kinds of issues.


Really? That's a new one on me. Just what type of products do you "market" and does your company stand behind this product for the life of the product?

Let's see some experiences I have had in the last five years:
*
Kenmore fridge six months out of warranty;* "Sorry your not covered and we can't offer you any discounts on the repair or parts."

*Whirlpool front load washer 8 months out of warranty; *"Sorry your not covered." "How much is the repair?" "$1400.00", "The washer was only $900.00?" "Then you should buy a new one."

*Nikon Camera in warranty;* "Sorry but you will have to ship it back to us for repair and cover the return shipping."

*Dell Computer four days out of warranty;* "Sorry not covered." "But it only expired four days ago and I had meant to call you last week because it has had the problem for about two weeks. I thought I had remembered purchasing it at the end of February, not in the middle, so thought I had some time", "Sorry sir there is nothing we can do for you."

*iPod 6 months out of warranty;* "Sorry not covered and you'll need to ship it back to us for a battery replacement and cover shipping costs."

*MacBook Pro 1 month out of warranty;* "Sorry not covered"

Please do tell us what product you market and how your warranty system works couse most do not work they way you expect them to. Perhaps next time you buy a product you should read the warranty fine print more closely?


----------



## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

xsboats said:


> What's so mysterious about finding cracks on a Hunter?


Oh come on and I'm not even a hunter fan.


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Well

http://media.channelblade.com/EProWebsiteMedia/704/2010 SB limited warranty 6-4-09.pdf

As a powerboat person also Searay or any boat in that family of brands is one BIG loop-hole of double talk


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

Well Maine Sail, I guess I see two critcal differences between Hunter ACP hulls shattering severely when it gets too cold outside and the examples you brought forward: 1) Hunter's problem is a manufacturing DEFECT - the plastic material has an inherent coefficient of thermal expansion that simply cracks when it get too cold, 2) Hunter readily admits the product is defective through a) their change in the owners manual after 2007 which now warns thei customers to keep the hull from freezing (nice to be told AFTER you buy the boat, BTW), b) their upcoming abandonment of plastic for fiberglass (as noted by an earlier forum participant), and 3) their half-hearted offer to fix my hull long after the warranty expired.

I suspect these two conditions don't apply in each of the examples you raised.


----------



## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

wundrbar said:


> Well Maine Sail, I guess I see two critcal differences between Hunter ACP hulls shattering severely when it gets too cold outside and the examples you brought forward: 1) Hunter's problem is a manufacturing DEFECT - the plastic material has an inherent coefficient of thermal expansion that simply cracks when it get too cold, 2) Hunter readily admits the product is defective through a) their change in the owners manual after 2007 which now warns thei customers to keep the hull from freezing (nice to be told AFTER you buy the boat, BTW), b) their upcoming abandonment of plastic for fiberglass (as noted by an earlier forum participant), and 3) their half-hearted offer to fix my hull long after the warranty expired.
> 
> I suspect these two conditions don't apply in each of the examples you raised.


I'm curious. Given your particular circumstances, what would satisfy you? What would Hunter have to do to make you happy?


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

wundr, if we take up a collection here and raise $1000 for you, will you quit chirping and go away?

BTW, what do you sell and who do you sell for? I'd like to do a BBB check to see if you have any customers who sound like you, and whether you exceeded your own warranty terms to give them the service they think they deserve.


----------



## cruisingdream (Feb 7, 2007)

I just bought a plastic boat full of cracks ..thanks for showing me how to scam hunter into fixing it for free.............


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

wundrbar said:


> Well Maine Sail, I guess I see two critcal differences between Hunter ACP hulls shattering severely when it gets too cold outside and the examples you brought forward: 1) Hunter's problem is a manufacturing DEFECT - the plastic material has an inherent coefficient of thermal expansion that simply cracks when it get too cold, 2) Hunter readily admits the product is defective through a) their change in the owners manual after 2007 which now warns thei customers to keep the hull from freezing (nice to be told AFTER you buy the boat, BTW), b) their upcoming abandonment of plastic for fiberglass (as noted by an earlier forum participant), and 3) their half-hearted offer to fix my hull long after the warranty expired.
> 
> I suspect these two conditions don't apply in each of the examples you raised.


Um let's see the washing machine is a known manufacturing flaw / defect as explained to me by the repair guy, whom I paid $160.00 to tell me that, and mine was his third one in a week he had been out on. The fridge was a design/defect too and so is the iPod with no user replaceable battery. C'mon your incessant whining is getting old...

BTW you never answered my question about what product you sell/market so I can check to see if your company has any similar complaints against it. Only fair, right..


----------



## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

This constant complaining to a group who can't help or validate his complaint is of no value, pointless, not at all constructive or informative, totally one-sided and not objective. 
Can't help wonder why it is allowed to continue.

If I had the self-restraint, I'd do the appropriate thing and ignore it...


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

k1vsk said:


> This constant complaining to a group who can't help or validate his complaint is of no value, pointless, not at all constructive or informative, totally one-sided and not objective.
> Can't help wonder why it is allowed to continue.
> 
> If I had the self-restraint, I'd do the appropriate thing and ignore it...


Ah, c'mon who doesn't like a good car crash?


----------



## krozet (Nov 29, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> iPod with no user replaceable battery.


Not to split hairs but that is not a design defect, that's a revenue stream for apple.


----------



## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

wundrbar said:


> Glad you asked. I have been in product marketing for over 20 years so I know what it takes to build a successful brand - and Hunter is an excellent case study of what NOT to do. Yes I do expect Hunter to fix a severe manufacturing defect long after their own 'expressed warranty" period expires. For example, the other boat in my pictures is a Sea Ray and they offer a lifetime warranty on something as basic and critical as a boat hull. As for Hunter's offer to fix the damages, they should either pay to have the boat shipped to/from their manufacturing facility or they should arrange to have one of their local dealers take on the job - THAT is how reputable firms handle these kinds of issues.


Oh really? What "NOT"to do? The only one here that thinks that is you, and nobody cares what you think. But if that's not clear after 9 pages, I guess it will never be clear to you. You lost this battle, please give it up.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

k1vsk said:


> This constant complaining to a group who can't help or validate his complaint is of no value, pointless, not at all constructive or informative, totally one-sided and not objective.


I quite agree.... yet several members here continue to engage the OP and keep the thread on the front page. (it HAD apparently died for a time)



k1vsk said:


> Can't help wonder why it is allowed to continue.


There hasn't been any truly 'ban-worthy' activity according to the rules... but perhaps we need to act more arbitrarily....


----------



## parttimesailor (Sep 18, 2006)

*You really need to stop breaking things...*



Maine Sail said:


> Really? That's a new one on me. Just what type of products do you "market" and does your company stand behind this product for the life of the product?
> 
> Let's see some experiences I have had in the last five years:
> *
> ...


no way to keep up with all this! :laugher


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

A number of you have legitimately questioned my rationale for believing that I have a right to have Hunter repair my boat at no cost to me even though Hunter's expressed warranty period of 5 years has expired. Let me explain why I think my claim is justified. 

In Ontario, Canada (and in many US state as well) we have consumer protection legislation. It states that "there is an implied condition that the goods will be reasonably fit for such (in this case, 'sailing') purpose". It goes on to state that "an express warranty or condition does not negative a warranty or condition implied by this act unless inconsistent therewith".

I believe a that to be considered "reasonably fit for sailing", a sailboat should not develop huge crevices throughout the entire hull because it was exposed to temperatures of minus 25 degrees during storage - at least not in Canada!

In addition, Ontario law has a section dealing with Product Liability. It states that, "a manufacturer who recklessly or carelessly makes false statements regarding its utility may be held liable for any losses". It goes on to state, "examples would include failure to detect any product defect they knew, or ought to have known existed"

Again, I know that Hunter has known about this defect for many years now. Not only are they not warning customers about the potential problem, they actually market their plastic Advanced Composite Process as "so much stronger than fiberglass you are much less likely to have to repair it to begin with" - and that is straight from their product brochure!


----------



## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

wundrbar said:


> A number of you have legitimately questioned my rationale for believing that I have a right to have Hunter repair my boat at no cost to me even though Hunter's expressed warranty period of 5 years has expired. Let me explain why I think my claim is justified.
> 
> In Ontario, Canada (and in many US state as well) we have consumer protection legislation. It states that "there is an implied condition that the goods will be reasonably fit for such (in this case, 'sailing') purpose". It goes on to state that "an express warranty or condition does not negative a warranty or condition implied by this act unless inconsistent therewith".
> 
> ...


Well said. Now, before the piling on starts, I'll ask this again:

I'm curious. Given your particular circumstances, what would satisfy you? What would Hunter have to do to make you happy?


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Again, what were the conditions of you storing the boat, and were they following the guidelines set out by Hunter at the time you bought the boat??


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

My request is pretty simple - put my boat back in shape so that me and my familiy can safely sail in it again and don't force me to incur any costs to do so.


----------



## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

wundrbar said:


> My request is pretty simple - put my boat back in shape so that me and my familiy can safely sail in it again and don't force me to incur any costs to do so.


Thanks for the answer.


----------



## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Seems like you ignore everyone's opinion you don't want as well as some legitimate questions that have been asked of you. Oh well,...

Let's make this simple. The boat had a warranty of 5 years which is extraordinary among builders. Your boat is older than 5 years. 

You can cite all the Canadian consumer laws you want - read paragraph 2 above.

There is an Australian consumer protection statute as well - commonly referred to as the "incredibly stupid standard" which simply put, states all vendor promises must be clear enough for a person of less-than-average intelligence to comprehend. If, as we presume, you are not covered by that standard in Australian law, it becomes more obvious that this is a poorly veiled attempt at criticizing others rather than taking responsibility for your own negligence.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

wundrbar said:


> In Ontario, Canada (and in many US state as well) we have consumer protection legislation. It states that "there is an implied condition that the goods will be reasonably fit for such (in this case, 'sailing') purpose". It goes on to state that "an express warranty or condition does not negative a warranty or condition implied by this act unless inconsistent therewith".


Didn't this already go to court or a pre-trial hearing, in Canada, and you CHOSE not to proceed? Didn't Hunter also offer to fix your boat AFTER you CHOSE not to proceed, when they legally, at that point, did not have to do so?

You use the law as your fall back but then neglect to fill us in on how chose not to pursue Hunter, with an actual court case.

If you feel so strongly that you are in the right TAKE THEM TO COURT, PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS, and you will win. If however, you feel that you are in the wrong, and would loose, and incur lots of expense, in teh process, and you feel that by blabbing on a forum will get them to pay up, you are just plain silly...

P.S. When are you going to stop evading the question of what product you market/sell?


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Wundr writes:

"My request is pretty simple - put my boat back in shape so that me and my familiy can safely sail in it again and don't force me to incur any costs to do so."

yeah. That's achievable.

Wundr, I am going to make this really, really clear:

You don't take care of your stuff.

Your boat is full of snow, the mast is lying on (presumably) the driveway (the snowcover makes it difficult to tell, it could be on the 18th green at Augusta but it is COVERED IN SNOW, which is unrecommended by any manufacturer and sailing guide), There is no cover, and obviously little interest.


In fact, you have admitted that you did not even use the boat during the previous season, so a) how important is sailing this boat to you, and b) just how much rainwater has it got lying in the bilge? 

Now that it is absolutely friggin' balmy in Ontario, show me some pics of how the boat looks TODAY- show me how the bilge is bone dry and how well-taken care of this boat is.

You still haven't told us what you "market' and how you would respond to a customer like you.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

So, you want Hunter to pay for the shipping to and from the factory, repair the boat to usable shape, after you clearly neglected the boat and abused it... Yeah, that's going to happen...

You might consider that Hunter already went above and beyond what they are REQUIRED TO DO, and you chose not to meet their requirements for them fixing your boat. * You don't really deserve anything else from Hunter. *



wundrbar said:


> My request is pretty simple - put my boat back in shape so that me and my familiy can safely sail in it again and don't force me to incur any costs to do so.


----------



## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

This type of discussion proves one thing - there is truth to the axiom that the internet is full of people with no life and a lot to complain about.


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

Maine Sail wrote:
"I also challenge you to come up with 24 different members, by screen name, as you have stated "dozens and dozens" who have had ACP hull cracks. If you are going to publicly continue to bash Hunter we want links to threads on ANY forum where there is a discussion of ACP hulls cracking. It is only fair as your behavior is getting a touch ridiculous at this point."

Wundrbar Replies:

OK Maine Sail, you gave me a challenge and I accepted. Starting today, I will begin to post the comments of other Hunter ACP hull owners who have complained about their hulls cracking over the years. You have asked for 24. I will give you 24. However, since there are so many and the complaints so long, I will share them in increments over the next few weeks. Here is the first one:

Hunter Owner Complaint #1 of 24:
Name:Lance Cluster
Date and Time of Post: 07-18-2007 07:29 am (SailboatOwners.com)
His Post:
"In answer to the question regarding how to get Hunter to take responsibility for the ACP cracking issues – I really wish I knew. I spent a lot of time and money repairing ACP cracking issues that Hunter said were very rare. All that can be done is make people aware of the ACP cracking issues and hope that people do their homework before they purchase a Hunter daysailor."

More to come in the days ahead.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

wundrbar said:


> Maine Sail wrote:
> "I also challenge you to come up with 24 different members, by screen name, as you have stated "dozens and dozens" who have had ACP hull cracks. If you are going to publicly continue to bash Hunter we want links to threads on ANY forum where there is a discussion of ACP hulls cracking. It is only fair as your behavior is getting a touch ridiculous at this point."
> 
> Wundrbar Replies:
> ...


I asked for links to posts and screen names. You may get yourself into a copy right issue copy and pasting entire posts that are the property of another forum... Also, we only need ONE post.

Your sleazy intent is to clearly keep this topic at the top of the posts list in a weak attempt to disparage Hunter. I believe if you do as you say you are going to, you will get this thread permanently closed so it will go to the bottom of the thread list in perpetuity....

Again, for about the umpteenth time, what do you sell/market? Let's stop the hypocrisy NOW....


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

Oh there are no copyright issues at play here Maine Sail. I am giving full attribution to both the authors and the forum that posts the comments (once again, it is SailboatOwners.com). I wish I could paste the link to the posts I will be releasing over the next few weeks. Unfortunately, as you know, Phil banned me from that site quite some time ago so I no longer have access to the links. Fortunately I kept a hard copy of all of my research. But if you want to find the original posts, just go to their site and search the archives for some of the key terms in the quotes provided.


----------



## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

If that's the game you want to play, here's someone's experience:

my son had one of these boats (in Wisconsin where it gets cold) which developed a small crack which Hunter promptly, courteously, immediately fixed, and at no expense to him.

The difference must be that they liked my son and they didn't like you:laugher.

Someone please shut off this totally useless thread!


----------



## wundrbar (Oct 30, 2009)

I'm not sure why you two feel you need to continue with the personal attacks and demands to close this thread, Maine Sail and k1vsk. After all, aren't these forums intended to share information and opinions on the topic of sailing?

Let's try to focus this debate on the crux of the issue. We seem to have two differing opinions here. In one corner, we have me. I believe Hunter Marine Corp. knowingly has been manufacturing a defective ACP hull for many years. In the other corner, we have Maine Sail, sailingdog, K1vsk (and probably others) who currently believe that I have neglected my sailboat and am trying to get Hunter to pay for the damages. And, to discredit me, you have challenged me to substantiate one of my main support points - that there are "dozens and dozens" of other Hunter ACP owners who have experienced the same problem that I have. Of course, evidence that shows I am not the only one who has experienced this 'cracking problem', helps to substantiate my claim and weakens your POV.

While I believe I have a strong legal argument to win a claim against Hunter Marine Corp., I have no intention of trying to outspend them, or their parent, Luhrs Marine Group in the courts. In my opinion, that would simply be "throwing good money after bad money", as my Dad often warned me about. That is why I told Hunter's representatives that I would take this case to "the court of public opinion".

All I ask is that readers of this forum listen to my facts and let me respond to your challenges. If, in doing so, they agree with you guys and/or gals, I will just be happy knowing that I have a chance to express my views. Since you feel so passionately and strongly about your views and your case, you shouldn't feel threatened about what I have to say. In fact, you should encourage more dialogue NOT less!


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

If you want to share information, then answer the question that Maine Sail and I both asked- what do you sell?, and how would you deal with a customer like you?

Your evasiveness certainly calls your own credibility into question.


----------



## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Can anyone tell me how I can ignore this thread? The the dead horse is well flayed, and it's beginning to stink...


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

PorFin said:


> Can anyone tell me how I can ignore this thread? The the dead horse is well flayed, and it's beginning to stink...


I quite agree.... I think everyone here has had ample opportunity to state their views or opinions, this is getting very repetitive. The thread will remain but is now closed.


----------

