# Wind indicator NOT for mast top



## claudino (Nov 3, 2012)

On my O'day 27 i do not have a wind indicator and i'm planning to get one but i just don't want the trouble to install it on mast top.

I'm not racing, so i just want something simple affordable trouble-less.

I saw a couple of things that look OK :

1) Wind-Tels from Davis (shroud mounted)
2) Sailsteady (this is deck-mounted, flexible, mostly for lasers but i was wondering if it would be OK also for a bigger boat). Practical Sailor magazine talks a bit about it in the last issue.


Any recommendatation? 

many thanks


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Dig into an old closet or basement and find an old cassette tape.. Break it open and you'll have a lifetime supply of telltales you can tie on anywhere you like.. Shrouds and back stay works well.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Mast top is best for undisturbed air. 
Anything else is a compromise, as PS explains. 
The sailsteady looks good for it's purpose, but tell tales, an ensign off the stern and many other things do just as well, look better and are less expensive.


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## claudino (Nov 3, 2012)

Faster said:


> Dig into an old closet or basement and find an old cassette tape.. Break it open and you'll have a lifetime supply of telltales you can tie on anywhere you like.. Shrouds and back stay works well.


I like that and I thought about that, but how do tape compare with the other indicators i mentioned ? If really not much difference, i'll go with your advice.

The only problem.... i don't think i have any cassette tape anymore...


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## arknoah (Oct 31, 2010)

claudino said:


> The only problem.... i don't think i have any cassette tape anymore...


Hey, I've been around long enough that I could probably find a couple of 8-track tapes to pull apart to do this!

I tried the Wind-Tels product on our Macgregor 25 and I wasn't happy with them. Mounting them wasn't as easy as it should have been and as I recall, the indicators pointed to where the wind was going, rather than where it was coming from as in the case of mast mounted indicators. (Might not be right about this.) They were just confusing. Last year, we got a traditional mast mounted Windex, and I've been much happier with it.

As for the Sailsteady, I'm not sure where you could install it on the deck of a larger boat that might not be in the way, yet still work effectively.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I wouldn't go a marine one at all.

When I was in the USA the Walmart had a series of weather displays. I bought one with a barometric recorder.. Ok it only records for 24 hours... But the unit is fine, works well, has good reception to the remote sensor etc.

So if I was looking for wind speed and direction without the marine BS prices I would have a look at their range

AcuRite Professional Digital Weather Center with Forecast / Temperature / Humidity / Wind Speed & Direction / Rainfall with AcuLink Remote Monitoring 01050C

Strap it to the stern rail. It won't be as acurate as mast top, but you will get to understand the offset for direction from mainsail draft etc.


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## claudino (Nov 3, 2012)

arknoah said:


> Hey, I've been around long enough that I could probably find a couple of 8-track tapes to pull apart to do this!
> 
> I tried the Wind-Tels product on our Macgregor 25 and I wasn't happy with them. Mounting them wasn't as easy as it should have been and as I recall, the indicators pointed to where the wind was going, rather than where it was coming from as in the case of mast mounted indicators. (Might not be right about this.) They were just confusing. Last year, we got a traditional mast mounted Windex, and I've been much happier with it.
> 
> As for the Sailsteady, I'm not sure where you could install it on the deck of a larger boat that might not be in the way, yet still work effectively.


Yes, i saw some reviews mentioning the Wind-Tels installation is not as smooth as thought. For the direction, as long as it's understood how it works, it should not be an issue though.

On the Sailsteady i have the same concern.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

Shroud tell-tales, whether cassette tape or the commercial variety are a poor indicator of wind direction. As chuckles says, there is (mostly) undisturbed air at the top of the mast. This fact should not be dismissed lightly, air on the shrouds is affected by both the ground effect, hull configuration, mast, main, jib and will be inaccurate by may degrees (can be 10+). There is a reason why competitive boats put a windex up top. To be direct, if accuracy isn't an issue, then why bother at all? Just turn your head until the wind sound is equal in each ear - you nose will be pointed into the wind.

To install a Windex on the masthead is a 15 minute job, at most.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Sabreman said:


> To install a Windex on the masthead is a 15 minute job, at most.


As long as you either have a deck-stepped mast or are OK with going for a ride up the mast (and have someone to help you).

I've thought about a Windex; I'd really like one. But my wife is scared to haul me up, and won't let me haul her or the boys up. She keeps saying something about 7 and 5 year olds not being able to actually do the work. But, anyway... Of course, you COULD pay a yard to do it for you, but then you're easily doubling your costs.

Yeah, I know, everything on a boat is a compromise...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

IMHO after a compass a Windex is the single most valuable instrument you can have on board. It's the cheapest as well.

Go to the trouble to install one, you won't regret it. Telltales on the sails & rigging help a lot too but the Windex is more important.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

> As long as you either have a deck-stepped mast or are OK with going for a ride up the mast (and have someone to help you)


That would be true. But anyone with a sailboat should be able to inspect their masthead. Whether it involves lowering the mast or riding to the top, it's a safety issue as important as making sure that there is oil in the engine or lifejackets aboard. I can truly appreciate that some people are uncomfortable with heights or hanging on a 1/8" wire, so alternate arrangements need to be made. The ability to go aloft and inspect rigging is an important but often neglected safety component.


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## claudino (Nov 3, 2012)

Sabreman said:


> That would be true. But anyone with a sailboat should be able to inspect their masthead. Whether it involves lowering the mast or riding to the top, it's a safety issue as important as making sure that there is oil in the engine or lifejackets aboard. I can truly appreciate that some people are uncomfortable with heights or hanging on a 1/8" wire, so alternate arrangements need to be made. The ability to go aloft and inspect rigging is an important but often neglected safety component.


It's a good point, and I agree. I should make that effort (i got the boat recently) and i will do it eventually but not in next 2-3 months, likely.

But the main point for me was the difference in accuracy between a mast top indicator and others at lower level (shroud or deck mounted). According to what you say, the difference in accuracy is so large that is not even worth considering the second one. Being without having one is just as good.
Others don't seem to dismiss it so strongly , though.

Me, i kind of like to have something to look at. Being inexperienced, it gives me some confidence/reassurance.

i have more doubts now than when i started this thread... Thanks guys


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

SloopJonB said:


> IMHO after a compass a Windex is the single most valuable instrument you can have on board. It's the cheapest as well.
> 
> Go to the trouble to install one, you won't regret it. Telltales on the sails & rigging help a lot too but the Windex is more important.


Agreed! The first 6 months of sailing my neck was constantly sore becuase I was always looking to the top of the mast. I still do all teh time to tell me exactly the driection of the wind so I can make adjustments. For me, Windex is for rough adjustments, tell tales are for fine tuning.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

Telltales on your sails are probably worth watching more than a little display that gives wind direction. Especially if you are new to it all. Far more important than where exactly the wind is coming from is how it's flowing over your sails. I might encourage you to look a little further afield than the wife and kids for someone to hoist you up. Surely it will take you less than 2-3 months to poll your buddies or your neighbors at the marina and get someone to hoist you. Otherwise a caving ladder on a halyard will get you up when you need to and no be permanent additions to your mast like steps. 

Anyway. Your sails are what you need to be watching. And guess what else is up there- the mast head conveniently enough.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

jimgo said:


> As long as you either have a deck-stepped mast or are OK with going for a ride up the mast (and have someone to help you).


Are you in a marina? You can probably find someone who can help. You can also use a product like the ATN Mast Climber (there are cheaper alternatives discussed here and elsewhere) that let you do it solo. I would still have someone (like your wife) spotting you and winching a safety line on a halyard, but she doesn't need to do any real work.

Tape or yarn on the shrouds works okay and is easier to see. You just need to get used to looking at the correct shroud.

Putting one on top is the best idea anyway. Put a LED in the anchor light while you are up there.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I look at the water. The line of chop. That's the true wind direction, every thing on the boat is apparent wind. I've never understood how a person can stand out side and not be able to look directly into the direction the wind is blowing. it seems like an obvious force. If you can tell "that" the wind is blowing, you should be able to tell from "where" it is coming. Also it should only mater in regards to how High you can point. in which case your sails will start flapping and you'll stop moving when you can't go any higher, so fall off till the fill and you start to move.. On a down wind run, again I angle my self at an angle to the line of chop. In very light winds, which is the most challenging. tell tails will lie flacid and a windex will swing with the boat motion as the stronger force. I suggest, going out side, looking at the water and just look and obsereve and develope the sense of the wind, put your cheak to it, turn into it, like someone said earlier, feel it in your ears. It's an essential part of being a sailor, sensing the wind.


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## Hesper (May 4, 2006)

I agree with most of what Capt aaron says, except "That's the true wind direction, every thing on the boat is apparent wind. " While true, we sail in the apparant wind, so I wouldn't dismiss it so lightly.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

If I'm going to sail some where, I look out at the water, and immagine how I'm going to deal with the wind that is out there, not with how the wind will appear to be on deck. In prep for a passage, I look at the true wind flags on passageweather.com and the predictions for the time I'll be out there. And I plan my passage accordingly, and again, only when its on any kind of a point does it even mater, any thing off the wind is "How much" not 'where from".


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

As usual, Capt.aaron, you are a wealth of information. I, in fact, have been attempting to read the water like you describe and feel the wind on my face, etc. Hope I have a good season this year, which there's actually wind on the weekends.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

carl762 said:


> As usual, Capt.aaron, you are a wealth of information. I, in fact, have been attempting to read the water like you describe and feel the wind on my face, etc. Hope I have a good season this year, which there's actually wind on the weekends.


Well, I guess what I'm saying is, the best place for the wind indicator is in you. I made a lot of money as rigger installing "wind Chickens" or re-adjusting 'em for people. And I've taught enough people to sail that I know this Sensory Wind sensation is something the most land lubbing city kid can develope.


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

Yup, so far, I seem to be adapting, learning, especially when it comes to sail trim/shape. It comes natural. Read several books and saw many a video that say the same thing you are. 

Lots more practice required this year.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

A Windex is an essential piece of equipment. It gives you a good indicator of apparent wind direction and also allows you to adjust the pointing angle V so that it works with your ability to point. It also is a critical indicator of your jibe danger point when on a run. You will use a Windex more than any other piece of gear on the boat. As far as sail trim, you need telltales on all your sails to tell you what the wind flow over each sail is doing as well as how your headsail and main are cooperating. These are really cheap to buy or make yourself. Yarn works as will mylar tape but a pack of stick-ons can be had for about 6 bucks. We used to just thread a piece of yarn and knot off but they're hard to see on a large sail. As far as wind intensity, that's something you need to feel more than meter unless you're racing and working with technical polar data...way more than you need to just go sailing.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I don't know. My head sail tells me when I'm about to jibe. Or the quiet calm that occurs just prior. Riding the edge of a jibe is a skill aquired through practice and sensing the enviroment around you. For a long run, I'll interlock two heads and go wing n wing. Maybe pole 'em. Put a preventer on the Main if that's whats happening. I still think you need a sense of what the wind is doing with out a plastic gadget percarioulsy pearched on the mast head to tell you. A peice orange nylon on the shroud is a good, cheap, "not on the mast head" as the OP asked for. I'd like to see people get away from gadgets that tell you things you should be able to sense, especially something as crucial as wind direction, or should I say obvious as wind direction.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

When I'm running, I'll sense the critical point when the sails tell me that the main may get backwinded. A lot of that depends on how much the boat is veering with a following sea. Looking at the Windex, I'll get a point I don't want to pass and use it as a reference point. If it's really rough, I'll tack downwind so as to never get too close. I just made up a boom brake that I'm going to install asap. Am hoping it works. I've tried preventers but have not had good luck in getting one rigged up right. There's just no place to attach up forward to get enough angle to stop the boom. Also, I don't like the idea of burying the boom with a preventer attached. My old scow has a pretty large main and a long boom so wing and wing with the main requires CONSTANT attention. Am also putting in an inner forestay with running backstays which should allow me to set a storm jib AND set poled out wing and wing headsails.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

To clarify a couple items:

1. Tell-tales on a sail don't tell you where the wind is coming from. They show you the airflow over the sail and whether the sail is trimmed correctly for your course. Nothing more.

2. Apparent wind is what a boat sails in and directly impacts performance and sail trim. So while true wind obviously impacts apparent wind, you sail to the _apparent_ wind.

I agree that looking at the water is an essential skill, it's doesn't tell you much about what the wind is doing _now_. A wind shift won't manifest itself on the water for quite a long time, in the mean time, you've jibed and blown the gooseneck off the boat. Also, wind speed and direction on the water is not necessarily the same as 40' up.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I've sailed a few boats without vanes. In those cases a tell-tale on the shroud solution is certainly inexpensive enough to see if it works for the op. 

If the windward tell tale points toward the leech of the mainsail = close hauled
" the center of the mainsail = close reach
" mast = beam reach
" jib/genoa = broad reach

Greatly simplified, of course, but it works.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I sail up in N.H. on lake Winnepasaki with my Dad sometimes. Wacthing the water is exactly how I tell what the wind is doing, going to do, and is doing up ahead. Talk about squirly. I'll be the first to say that I am not a "Performance sailor.' I'm a cruiser at heart and a Delivery Capt. for dough. I set the sail to the coarse I need. I pull the sail in till it stops flapp'n and I start moving. Then I mess with it's shape till I'm satisfied that I'm gett'n everything I can out of her. If my dest. is up it, I point as high as I can into the true wind, and bend the sails to the apparent, I guess that's what I'm doing anyway's. I do what I need to get her to run. Some boats run faster zig zag'n down the wind, some, like mine, love to sled straight down it. The fins that I deliver prefer a zig. Either way you slice it, the motion of the boat, wind in my face, and the shape of the sails tell me everything I need to know. Ya, in a wind shift, the seas can get confused and boiling, especially in the Gulf Stream. Still one can look in to the wind to determain it's direction, true or apparent.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Hey Aaron, I used to live in NH and am very familiar with Winnepesaukee. I built the Loon Center in Moultonboro. Have kayaked all the lakes over there but never sailed on any of them. I don't like lake sailing. The wind does things that are just too darned squirrely!.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Well you can spell it better than me that's for sure. I went to Highschool up there. My parents live in Merideth. I sail the lake with my Dad on a 16' Hobie One. It's a pain to sail the lake, but better than not sailing I guess. I'm a promoter of getting back to the organics of the sailing experience. Not being a diget midget. Simplifying it. Do we need a dangling arrow to show us our degree of list. I'll admit when I deliver a boat that has a wind chiken on the mast, I use it. I get a neck cramp to. I had one fall off on a recent delivery and sighed relief when it was gone. I tied some nylon strapping to my Dad's shrouds. He said they fell off and, all though they helped in the begining, he did'nt need them anymore. When people ask me to teach them to sail, I teach them to let the boat teach them how to sail. She'll let them know when they are doing ot right.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Last time I was over at the N. end of the lake, couldn't believe how the Milfoil had completely covered some of the shallow bays. The stuff is nasty. We have it here in some of the lakes in NY too.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Have'nt been up there for 2 years. I seem to remember someone saying something. I prefer that end of the lake for some reason.


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## arknoah (Oct 31, 2010)

Sabreman said:


> 1. Tell-tales on a sail don't tell you where the wind is coming from. They show you the airflow over the sail and whether the sail is trimmed correctly for your course. Nothing more.


That's what I thought. Maybe I'm not sophisticated enough to use just the tall-tales, but I prefer to have both those and the Windex. One tells me the general origin of the wind, and the other lets me know when the sail is trimmed properly. I wouldn't be able to use only one and do as well as I should -- at least not with my current level of skill.


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

If it's not about constant checking on your sails, but rather an intermittent, and general check, perhaps a Kestrel windmeter (handheld) might be the right choice. Some of those have wind direction too (I believe those models uses an ultrasonic sensor for direction).

They're far from cheap, though.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

One said:


> If it's not about constant checking on your sails, but rather an intermittent, and general check, perhaps a Kestrel windmeter (handheld) might be the right choice. Some of those have wind direction too (I believe those models uses an ultrasonic sensor for direction).
> 
> They're far from cheap, though.


Spiting into the wind is free, and it will give you a good idea of how fast it's blow'n as well. Pi$$ 'n in the wind is also free, great visual on directon and force.


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

Capt.aaron said:


> Spiting into the wind is free, and it will give you a good idea of how fast it's blow'n as well. Pi$$ 'n in the wind is also free, great visual on directon and force.


LOL, true. I use my own windmeter when I'm going rowing (coastal/open water rowing), and just thought I'd put it out there as yet another option.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

arknoah said:


> That's what I thought. Maybe I'm not sophisticated enough to use just the tall-tales, but I prefer to have both those and the Windex. One tells me the general origin of the wind, and the other lets me know when the sail is trimmed properly. I wouldn't be able to use only one and do as well as I should -- at least not with my current level of skill.


No-one can without tell-tales. When aerodynamic engineers are wind tunnel testing cars they *cover* them with tell-tale tufts to illustrate the flow over the model. They also use smoke generators to help the same way but we don't have that option on boats.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Telltales really let you know how the wind is flowing over the sails before any backwinding or turbulence is apparent in the fabric of the sail itself. When using a 150%+ genny, being able to see windflow and what the interaction is between main and genny is very helpful to get the sails working up to their potential. It's amazing how much difference becomes apparent in small adjustments of cunningham, outhaul, downhaul, twist, and sheeting angles. Just a small adjustment in jib tension/angle often gets rid of a lot of turbulence that you might not notice without telltales.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I guess I'm a sloppy lazy sailor. I get my sails trimmed by looking at their shape, my angle of list, and my seed. If I'm moving along at good clip, bone in my teeth, I'm happy. Never really paid too much attention to the riibons.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I guess I became hooked on telltales when I had my Lightning. They are great little boats for learning about sail tuning because you can really see and feel the results of sail adjustments more-so than on a heavy displacement boat. Aaron, you ever run into a guy named Pete Pedersen. He's an old buddy who now lives down your way, has a 40' Blackfin out of Cudjo.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Capt.aaron said:


> I guess I'm a sloppy lazy sailor. I get my sails trimmed by looking at their shape, my angle of list, and my seed. If I'm moving along at good clip, bone in my teeth, I'm happy. Never really paid too much attention to the riibons.


You need to ratchet up your level of OCD.  When the wind is as consistently light as it is here in the summer, you look for every bit of performance you can get.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

smurphny said:


> I guess I became hooked on telltales when I had my Lightning. They are great little boats for learning about sail tuning because you can really see and feel the results of sail adjustments more-so than on a heavy displacement boat. Aaron, you ever run into a guy named Pete Pedersen. He's an old buddy who now lives down your way, has a 40' Blackfin out of Cudjo.


I bet I know some one who know's some one who know's him. Thing is about the lower Key's, we all know each other by sight. We recognize each other.
" I've seen you around" is the common introduction when we meet.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

> Maybe I'm not sophisticated enough to use just the tall-tales, but I prefer to have both those and the Windex.


You're plenty sophisticated if you realize that you need both. Tell tales tell you if you're trimmed properly. The windex tells you whether you're headed or lifted. So when the tell tales go flat, you glance at the windex and know why. Several seconds later the knot meter will catch up and show you slowing. A minute after _that_, the GPS will finally get around to telling you that you're slow.

Tell tales and windex provide the most bang for the buck of any performance instrument on the boat. By far.

BTW - Tell Tales on the mainsail's leech are about the only way to tell if the main is stalled or trimmed correctly. People often assume that the jib is the only sail that gets tell tales.


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

claudino said:


> Any recommendatation?


I suggest one like this:


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I sailed with on of those all through my 20's. looked just like that 'cept she had a bigger nose. She also was the best auto helm I ever had. Seroulsly she could steer with her foot in a 6 foot following sea, reading a book and eating an apple. Priceless.


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## claudino (Nov 3, 2012)

Roger Long said:


> I suggest one like this:


Checked the WestMarine catalog: not sure why, they don't carry those.

Thanks a lot for all the answers. I learned a lot just reading those.

I like Capt.aaron approach, but at the same time i'd like something to verify that approach. Otherwise i'll never know how close i am to read the wind right. I'll get some practice , some experience using the tales and wind-tells (and maybe later the windex) and when i'll feel good about it I'll become a complete Capt.aaron follower, using only my senses.


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

claudino said:


> I'll get some practice , some experience using the tales and wind-tells (and maybe later the windex) and when i'll feel good about it I'll become a complete Capt.aaron follower, using only my senses.


Although it's hard to sail exactly this way in a small boat, even a 30 footer, this article will should give you some good idea of the principles involved and help you understand what your senses are trying to tell you:

Points East, the New England Cruising Magazine


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

claudino said:


> Checked the WestMarine catalog: not sure why, they don't carry those.
> 
> Thanks a lot for all the answers. I learned a lot just reading those.
> 
> I like Capt.aaron approach, but at the same time i'd like something to verify that approach. Otherwise i'll never know how close i am to read the wind right. I'll get some practice , some experience using the tales and wind-tells (and maybe later the windex) and when i'll feel good about it I'll become a complete Capt.aaron follower, using only my senses.


Discailmer,
Keep in mind, I'm a sloppy lazy cruiser who is happy at 5 knots when I could probably be going 5.3 with a little bit more tenacity. I don't really go out sailing around the bay for fun very often unless it's a chater taking other people for fun. I shake down the boat and do passages and delivery's, I only ever race the tide and weather, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

claudino said:


> On my O'day 27 i do not have a wind indicator and i'm planning to get one but i just don't want the trouble to install it on mast top.
> 
> I'm not racing, so i just want something simple affordable trouble-less.
> 
> ...


Why not simply mount a pennant staff on your bow pulpit and find a small light-weight pennant that you like to fly as a windex or, for that matter, mount a windex arrowhead on the top of the thing?


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