# Westsail 32 light air



## Harry Black (Sep 18, 2021)

Does anyone have experience with Westsail 32 in 6-10 knot winds?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Not personally, but if you have the right headsail you should be able to ghost along at a pretty nice clip. We used to call them drifters, but they are called something else today. Of course, if you are going downhill, a chute works very well.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

I've only sailed a Westsail 32 once, in about 10-12 kts, and thought it sailed nicely. I have sailed other full keel boats in about 4-6 kts and found that some of them can sail nicely in very light air if you know how. Sailing in light air is less about the boat and more about the techniques. As Capta says, a drifter or similar light air sail helps.


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## Harry Black (Sep 18, 2021)

Sailormon6 said:


> I've only sailed a Westsail 32 once, in about 10-12 kts, and thought it sailed nicely. I have sailed other full keel boats in about 4-6 kts and found that some of them can sail nicely in very light air if you know how. Sailing in light air is less about the boat and more about the techniques. As Capta says, a drifter or similar light air sail helps.


Thank you. I have an offer accepted subject to survey. I tend to agree with you. I won't be winning any impromptu open races but I think I can enjoy the ride


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## garymalmgren (Jan 26, 2021)

There is a world of difference between 6 knots and 10 knots.
I sailed a similar boat through the light winds of SE Asia. 
At 6 knots it will be SLOW. 
At 10 knots with the right sails it will move.
At 15 knots it will breeze along.
At 20 knots it will be in its element.
At 25 the same as 20.
At 30 to 35 rock solid.
At 40 HANG ON.
Naturally, this all depends on which way (in relation to the wind) you are going.

Does it have a healthy engine around 25 hp or a little over?
Remember larger engines are thirsty.

gary


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

my experience with a Contest 36s fractional rig deep fin keel

At 6 knots boat barely moves... a know or two maybe 3 upwind only
At 10 knots sails have the apparent wind speed
At 15 knots it will approaches hull speed
At 20 knots true (25 apparent) you need to reef and boat is around hull speed. downwind it's perfect
At 25 the same as 20. double reefed. heeled a lot ip wind... downwind boat begins to need a good helmsmen because of waves
At 30 to 35 rock solid - sail with deeply reffed main... very wet maybe 5 knots... downwind surfs waves... tricky helming
At 40 HANG ON. bare poles... choose dead down wind watch out for pooping waves. surfing, speed crazy/varies.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

It is a heavy boat, with a lot of wetted surface. A boat like that is just not ever going to sail really well in light winds. At least, not by comparison to more modern designs.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

It isn't reasonable to compare 50 year old full keel boats with modern designs. The better old designs were given a sailplan that was powerful enough to drive a full keel boat, and those sailplans could keep the boat moving in light air. My experience with a Westsail 32 is limited, but my impression is that it is such a boat. I've raced Js and Farr designs as well as full keel boats. A good full keel boat can sail in 4-6 kts. It takes a very good boat and a very good crew to keep any boat going below 4 kts. IMO, a boat's weight is not very significant in light air. The main effect is that a heavy boat is slower to accelerate, but once it's going, inertia can keep it moving through the lulls. Weight matters more in winds that are strong enough to get a light boat to plane. One of the major advantages of modern boats is their lightness, and ability to plane, but they can't plane in light air. They can accelerate faster than a heavy boat, but they won't carry as far through the lulls. I have always believed my friend's full keel boat was most competitive in light air, with a big, powerful, light air sail.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

These discussions often result from a "how long is a piece of string?" kind of question such as "how does a Westsail 32 sail in light air?". Then the discussion shifts to people arguing over the definition of light air and whether anyone ever wants/needs/should sail in light air. The good news in this case is that the original poster specified a 6-10 knot wind range he is interested in. I don't think that the discussion does fairly address that.

The responses seem to focus on this range as being light air, and saying that Westsail 32's can sail in this wind range, and in some cases seem to imply (or even state explicitly) that therefore the Westsail 32 is a good light air boat.

I have owned and sailed on a lot of boats that are heavy displacement full keel designs. Indian (below) was my boat in the 1970's.









I have sailed on well sailed Westsail 32's in this wind range. In 6 knots of wind, especially a steady 6 knots of wind, and comparatively flat water, they can be made to sail. It does not come easy. To do so requires carrying a lot of sail in the form of large genoas and/or drifters. Those sails are hard to tack, and need frequent trimming to keep the boat moving well. Those larger headsails begin to become over powered around 10 knots of wind and typically require a reef in the main by 12 knots of wind, and a shift to a smaller headsail shortly after that.

There is no way around the physics, boats like these have a huge amount of drag in the form of vast amounts of wetted surface, and turbulence production from the extremely low aspect ration keels. In order to carry enough sail area to overcome that drag, they need to generate a lot of 'drive'. In order to create that drive with with an efficient sail plan, the boat needs a huge amount of stability because the high aspect ratio of a sail plan capable of producing enough drive to overcome the drag, also produces a vast amount of heeling forces. Most of these heavy displacement boats, do not produce nearly enough stability relative to their drag to carry anything resembling an efficient sail plan. Instead they rely on way less efficient lower aspect ratio sail plans. That in turn means carrying even more sail area than might be needed by a more efficient hull form, keel configuration and sail plan to achieve anything resembling a similar performance. In reality, carrying that much sail area is rarely feasible. In other words, performance oriented cruising boats of the same displacement but designed on a longer water line and with a more efficient sail plan and keel configuration will almost always perform wildly better at the lighter end of the wind range than a heavier weight cruiser. It does not take planning conditions for that to become glaringly obvious.

There is a popular mythology that lighter boats won't sail as well in light air as a heavier boat, particularly in lumpy conditions, because a heavier boat for its length has more momentum and will keep moving in the lulls. While it is true that a heavier boat moving at the same speed as a lighter boat does have more momentum, momentum is only one small piece of the equation when talking about lost speed in a lull. Offsetting that greater momentum is the heavier boat's much greater drag and probable lower speed. So while a lighter boat might have less momentum to carry it forward, it generally has proportionately considerably less drag stopping its forward motion. And since the lighter boat typically carries proportionately more sail area (SA/D) than the heavier boat, and has less inertia and less drag, it is able to accelerate more quickly in the puffs, maintaining a considerably higher average speed.

But beyond that, at the upper end of the wind range cited by the OP, a performance cruiser can often do close to its hull speed in wind angles between 45 degrees and perhaps 110-120 degrees. A performance cruiser can often make sufficiently reasonable speed under sail at the bottom of that range that motoring becomes unnecessary. For many who have a 3 knot rule or something like it, that means a performance cruiser is likely to be sailing at the bottom end of that wind speed range (and even below) while the higher drag, heavier for its length cruiser is more likely to be motoring to achieve a similar passage time. There is nothing inherently better or worse to either approach, but for some the need to motor would be unacceptable, while for others, it is no big deal.

Jeff


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## MoonBeamEstate (Jan 1, 2021)

Sailormon6 said:


> It isn't reasonable to compare 50 year old full keel boats with modern designs. The better old designs were given a sailplan that was powerful enough to drive a full keel boat, and those sailplans could keep the boat moving in light air. My experience with a Westsail 32 is limited, but my impression is that it is such a boat. I've raced Js and Farr designs as well as full keel boats. A good full keel boat can sail in 4-6 kts. It takes a very good boat and a very good crew to keep any boat going below 4 kts. IMO, a boat's weight is not very significant in light air. The main effect is that a heavy boat is slower to accelerate, but once it's going, inertia can keep it moving through the lulls. Weight matters more in winds that are strong enough to get a light boat to plane. One of the major advantages of modern boats is their lightness, and ability to plane, but they can't plane in light air. They can accelerate faster than a heavy boat, but they won't carry as far through the lulls. I have always believed my friend's full keel boat was most competitive in light air, with a big, powerful, light air sail.


Very well put without bashing the old girls as some folks on here frequently do. Some folks like a 57 Chevy and some like a Prius.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Sailormon6 said:


> It isn't reasonable to compare 50 year old full keel boats with modern designs. The better old designs were given a sailplan that was powerful enough to drive a full keel boat, and those sailplans could keep the boat moving in light air.


I will note that the Westsail 32 was an adaptation of the Atkin's Eric. The adaptation was from the original wood construction to fiberglass construction and internal ballast. In doing so the hull weight went up and the ballast weight (and stability) went down considerably. The Atkins Eric is actually a 100 year old design. But the Eric is based on the smaller Collin Archer redningsskøyter. The Collin Archer redningsskøyter were first designed in the 1870's, and so arguably the design of the Westsail 32 is actually closer to 150 year old design.

The original post asked, "Does anyone have experience with Westsail 32 in 6-10 knot winds?" That question may have been intended as a simple "Yes or No" question, my interpretation of the purpose of that question was, "If you have sailed a Westsail 32 in those conditions, how did the boat sail?" And in order to answer that question, it seems that the answer would need to objectively compare it to some benchmark, which was also implied in the OP's response that he would not win "Any impromptu races". I will also note that a lot has been learned about the science behind what makes a seaworthy, seakindly, easily handled, and well rounded design in the past 40 years, let alone the past 150 years, and that should be relevant to the original question about how a specific design sails in specific conditions. 


Sailormon6 said:


> I have always believed my friend's full keel boat was most competitive in light air, with a big, powerful, light air sail.


I am not sure that it would be most competitive in light air for the reasons above, but you are correct that adding enough sail area will make a more traditional design more capable in light to moderate conditions. But raising and flying that much sail is not as easy as the smaller sail plan of a more efficient rig, and the wind range of those light air sails tend to be quite small, and so obtaining that lighter air sailing ability comes at the price of a larger sail inventory and more frequent sail changes.



MoonBeamEstate said:


> Very well put without bashing the old girls as some folks on here frequently do. Some folks like a 57 Chevy and some like a Prius.


Objectively explaining the relative performance and the physics behind that relative performance is not "bashing the old girls". It is only putting them in perspective.

Respecftully,
Jeff


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## MoonBeamEstate (Jan 1, 2021)

I pointed no fingers. quoted no one but the person I quoted, pointed out no other post or person.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Had a friend that owned one back in the 70's. it was a kit built boat that he bought to finish from an old guy that could no longer work on it. it had wooden spars because the old timer was not going to sail a boat with them new fangled aluminum things. as my friend worked on the boat he realized that he needed to get it in the water and concentrate on getting it sailing before he got to old to sail it. he was 22 at the timed living in the boat on dry land that was in a storage yard about 10 miles from the beach. I helped him with the rig and it took us about 2 more years to get it ready to sail. We modified some sails that he bought from Minneys, sailing the boat was fun. the boat had character some times a bit to much character. what it lacked in sailing and it did lack, it made up in fun. we don't know about motoring when less then 5 knots of wind because we did not have an engine only a wooden dingy with an 5 hp outboard to tow the boat back to the dock. as far as sailing in 6 to 10 knots of breeze goes I would say the closer you get to the 6 knot breeze the more chips and bear you will need to have aboard. He sailed it to Catalina Island once and I sailed along in our 32' wooden PC racing sloop. with a good fresh breeze I made it to the Island in 9 hours up wind. and my friend and his crew made it there 27 hours later. they spent the night half way to the island and had to wait for the breeze to fill in the next morning. had a great week there and on the way back we had a following wind and he was only 4 hours behind when we sailed down the getty of Newport Beach harbor.
Is the Westsail 32 a slow boat in light air? No, unless you want to go some where.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

I'm certainly a respecter of physics, but one of the many wonderful things about sailing and yacht racing is the complexity of the sport. First, the old full keelers are blessed with a generous handicap. Second, they usually race in a "cruising class," or similar class of not-too-serious sailors. Third, as you sail around a race course, you frequently encounter what I call "opportunities." You can use lifts, wind shifts, currents to shorten the course and to increase your velocity made good. By studying the weather, tides and currents before the race, you can increase your likelihood of finding these opportunities during the race. Fourth, not-too-serious sailors tend to trim their sails after they round a mark, and then leave them alone until the next mark. Whenever the wind changes direction slightly or puffs or lulls, their sails are at less-than-perfect trim, perhaps as much as 40% of the way around the race course. If you re-trim your sails with every slight wind change, your sails will be driving at full power perhaps 90-95% of the time. A yacht race isn't a speed race. It's a time and distance race. The winner will be the one who can figure out how to sail the shortest distance to get around the race course, in the shortest amount of time, after the handicaps have been applied. Light air is one of the greatest opportunities for full keel boats, because not many sailors are very skilled at light air sailing. A boat that can keep moving will beat a boat that's dead in the water with slatting sails. This would be a good time to thank you, Jeff. I studied light air sailing, but reading your discussions of it on sailnet filled in the gaps.


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## Michael Bailey (Sep 10, 2021)

Harry Black said:


> Does anyone have experience with Westsail 32 in 6-10 knot winds?


Yes, I had a friend who was the first mate on a large Baltic ketch and owned and lived on his Westsail 32 when not working aboard the big heavy double ended ketch. He knew how to sail his boat very well and had a good set of sails. It was a good boat for them. They had it for years. In retrospect, what he was disappointed in was it's inability to go well to windward in heavy wind. As other folks have stated they aren't as stiff as you might expect. They could get her going fine in light winds. We had a lot of fun sailing in those days! That's what counts.


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

Back in the day you could order from the factory , what they called the "Super Yankee" , for a 32'. The factory did not make sails , the sails were made by a loft in Costa Mesa called Kern's Sails . I don't think Kern is still in business , Bud Taplin whom used to be the GM for WS is in business will have the dimensions for the SY . Also everything else you can think of for a WS 32' . He can be reached here . WESTSAIL PARTS CO.
Hope everything works out for your new to you WS 32' .


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