# behavior on other's boats



## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

Couple weeks ago I had a racing sailor on my boat . We were going along pretty good , making way nicely , & I was on the tiller drinking coffee admiring the water going by when he started tweaking everything. Five minutes later the boat is on it ear , the mast is shaking , my coffee is on the deck of the cockpit spilled , & the rig is about blow up . So......I came up on the wind higher as the boat was wanting to round up anyway til everything eased . He then turned to me & said ,"You weren't supposed to change course ." I didn't want to make a big deal out of it . He's a nice guy & I was trying to be a nice guy when I asked him along as his boat was out of service so I laughed it off & pointed out on my boat I often just change course as my mood suits me . The thing is this . I've seen this movie a few times . First off , I like to race as well , but having said that......not EVERY sail is a race . But more often then not when I've had racers on my boat it's some version of what I just described. Why is it that often when racers are aboard they feel comfortable sailing your boat their way & then take umbrage when you point that out to them . More often then not what comes next is a critique of my sailing from them which doesn't really smooth things over for me . I have a few miles under my keel & I choose to sail the way I sail as my preference & on my boat my right . This is actually the first time I haven't ended up being the bad guy cause I just kind of shrugged it off like I described . What I think is reasonable is that when on someone else's boat to follow that person's lead . It's not a huge issue as I mostly sail alone , but it is a recurring one & causes me to wonder at their mindset. Input ???


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Simple fix, tell racers the bot is a cruiser and not a racer


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Yeah, I think pre-sail discussions about what the sail is going to be, who's gonna do what, and most importantly who's in charge, would go a long way towards keeping everyone on the same page.

If some folks can't manage that, then they shouldn't get a second invite.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

If he did that on my boat, I'd just say, nicely, "relax, you're on a cruiser today. Let's ease those sails".

If he doesn't understand, without being told, that the boat owner is the captain, with all that implies, that's his problem, but it's going to be done my way. 

There's no way I'd go on another person's boat and sail it any other way than how the skipper wants it sailed. That'd be rude.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

When you are a guest on someone elses boat you are not the captain. You are a guest. Sit there and enjoy it. Be helpful but that doesnt include tweaking sails.... Or telling your host how to sail, or that his rig is chafed, or the varnish needs doing....

Apart from that racing people can be a weird breed. Try talking about something thats not racing and they look at you dumbfounded.

Glad I stopped racing!


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## ajoliver (Feb 23, 2007)

Five minutes later the boat is on it ear , the mast is shaking , my coffee is on the deck of the cockpit spilled , & the rig is about blow up . So......I came up on the wind higher
Hmmm, if he had you over-trimmed, and then you headed up, you would have been luffing vigorously, right? 
I sort of have my doubts about both of you - but mostly the rude crew guy.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

It sounds to me like you need to take command of your boat. Your crew can't read your mind. If you want to bear away from closehauled onto a gentler course, say so. Tell your crew to ease the sheets as you bear off the wind. He's there to help you sail the boat. If you don't tell him how you want him to trim the sails, then he has to guess. When he guesses wrong, you complain because he misread your wishes. Communicate. If you want him to follow your lead, you have to lead.

Good sail trim doesn't make a boat heel excessively, or make the mast shake, or make the rig "blow up." Good, sail trim helps the boat sail efficiently and keeps the boat on it's feet. Those behaviors by the boat would have been the result of an increase in wind velocity. That isn't the fault of your crew. If the wind velocity increases to the point that the boat is heeling excessively, then it's time to reduce sail area. That's a decision that should be made by the skipper, not by the crew. Take command. If the mast shakes, that's a sign that it is probably dangerously out of tune. That isn't the fault of your crew.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Bugs me when people don't bother to trim sails properly, racing or not. I confess, I am a tweaker.


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

When my boat is over powered & trying to round up if you let her have her head there a fine line just before sails lufting & you can yard her up just short of that & she eases up stands a little taller & sails quite well but you have to pay close attention to not pinch any further & it is a fine line . I suspect that behavior is not unique to my boat. So doubt away but there it is .


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

lmao.....I invite someone to sail & I'm am at fault for not being a leader . I don't go sailing to be a leader nor do I feel the obligation to lead . I also see that some posts reflect what I described in my original post.....that is my sailing ability is called into question or the condition of my boat.......interesting to me as she sails just fine til meddled with.......but lets not critique the person who "tweaked" her into that behavior . But having said that those critical posts are enlightening & reveal a presumption on the part of some .


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

I should clarify, I do not tweak on other people's boats unless invited to tweak. I just sit there and quietly stew on it


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

What I'm sort of taking away from this is I should mostly continue sailing alone . I have poor people skills & feel more at ease sailing by myself anyway . When I do sail with folks I pretty much limit "leading" to safety information like location of flotation devices & fire extinguishers . He's a nice guy & I'm sure he meant no harm .


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## blowinstink (Sep 3, 2007)

kjango said:


> What I'm sort of taking away from this is I should mostly continue sailing alone . I have poor people skills & feel more at ease sailing by myself anyway . When I do sail with folks I pretty much limit "leading" to safety information like location of flotation devices & fire extinguishers . He's a nice guy & I'm sure he meant no harm .


Nonono. I think that is totally the wrong lesson KJ! Justremember that when you get a tweeker aboard, they often need a "hey, I like the boat in a groove like this . . . we can get more out of her but she stops being fun to sail". Afterall, that is what you are describing right?  The truth will set you free Bro! 

Long time no see chatter!!!


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

From what you have said, you can obviously see why some cruisers get 10 plus years out of a set of sails and racers get a lot less.


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

kjango said:


> What I'm sort of taking away from this is I should mostly continue sailing alone . I have poor people skills & feel more at ease sailing by myself anyway . When I do sail with folks I pretty much limit "leading" to safety information like location of flotation devices & fire extinguishers . He's a nice guy & I'm sure he meant no harm .


No, sailing with others is just fun.

Your extent of leadership is just fine. Most do not want more.

You just got an entusiastic crew onboard. He has to learn, that's all.

Bring some beers next time. That use to relax most people.

/J


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

Ya know....I do sail sometimes with this old guy that has been racing boats for 33 years. He a tweaker........but the guy is an awesome sailor......has incredible boat skills . hasn't spilt my coffee yet & for whatever reason his 4 minute cycle of endless tweaking hasn't annoyed me & I have also learned a lot about sail trim from him . Never has unduly strained my boat or my patience .


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Ok, well I race, but I don't LIVE to race. That being said everyone knows I'm a tweaker. It's my job. If you invite ME to crew for you, I am going to crew. As crew, I DO follow your lead! Cracked off from close haul, I'm going to ease sheets, and get you best trim (it's my job). Generally I split the duties with the skipper, however, if genoa and mainsheet are within my reach, I let the skipper steer a course and I set trim to match.

Every good racer should know that sailing on your ear isn't efficient. It CAN be fun, and I sometimes do it on my own boat for the helluva it, but that's another story.

I suppose though if someone invited me along as a passenger, I might respectfully decline. There are a few sailors I know, that I'd be comfortable being a passenger on (as they are bigger nut-nicks than I am about tweaking)... 

I don't ever presume to know someone's boat better than them, but I expect my duties as "crew" to involve trim, foredeck work, running up halyards, what have you. In my opinion that's what I was asked... The skipper knows me, and wants an extra hand for a good sail with less work for us both.

On the opposite end of this spectrum... I invite people on my boat in 2 capacities... as CREW, and as Passengers. I make it clear which category they fit in. If I don't know the person, and I invite them as Crew, I assess their knowledge, and assign them a "position" and duty. If they do it better than myself, or differently I go over what I am expecting, and how to handle the duty.. example dumping a sheet when I ask, or sheet/trim commands. What my close haul settings are for the boat (example 3-6 inches off the spreader). 

If you board as a passenger, you merely need to move locations when I ask (Its a small boat, you are part of the ballast, just how it is)... otherwise you are there to soak it up... I'll even serve drinks and food!

By the way as passengers, I generally provide a period where the passengers get to take the helm. Then I become "Monkey in Chief." I do all the legwork, and tweaking while they steer the course of their choosing. This becomes entertainment for them (especially if they like to see a crazy man jumping all around the boat), but a lot of fun for me, its when I get to spend an ample amount of time figuring out best trim for a given point of sail.

If a racer's boat is out of commission, and they are invited to sail with someone, I suspect they generally think it's in a crew capacity. When I was boatless (between the sale of my old boat, and the purchase of my new boat), I got countless offers to sail from other members of my club (great people by the way).. I got to sail on some of our fastest boats, and some of our coolest boats (from hard core race boats to classic cat boats)... I wish I could have crewed on them all! Because each boat is a learning experience. But they all wanted my own take on what makes the boats go faster.

I cruise, I day sail, and I race, I doubt that I'd ever be happy setting trim without at least TRYING to optimize for best speed. Also I doubt sincerely racers go through sails faster than cruisers (if one looks at sailed miles)... cruisers just hang on to their blown out sails longer. I'd argue flogging sails on a race boat is like fingernails on a chalkboard to them, and money being burned.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

kjango said:


> What I'm sort of taking away from this is I should mostly continue sailing alone . I have poor people skills & feel more at ease sailing by myself anyway . When I do sail with folks I pretty much limit "leading" to safety information like location of flotation devices & fire extinguishers . He's a nice guy & I'm sure he meant no harm .


Your guest may crew on boats that race, but that doesn't mean that he knows what he's doing. It sounds like he grossly over-trimmed for your point of sail. He's one of those guys that thinks being heeled 40 degrees and stalling the rudder is fast.

He's a guest, and he shouldn't have trimmed anything without asking you first.
I race, I like to tweak, but when I'm a guest, I always ask "Do you mind if I try something?" I sure as hell don't criticize my host for changing course.

Your people skills are fine, mate. It's your guest that needs an adjustment.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Just reading this thread you can see the problem. Cruisers what to sail "well" and enjoy the trip and racers just want to see how hard they can push the boat, even on the internet. Just read the posts here to prove it.

But it doesn't have to be a racer, sometimes another cruiser will be just as bad. Had one a few years ago who brought his work assistant along (I had said it was OK). At the pre-sail brief I said I planned to sail mellow, but later wind the wind started I put in a reef and got a passive aggressive comment about it (we were still doing 7 knots). That person hasn't been back on the boat.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

In recent months have had some interesting interactions.
Day sailed some with wife's cousin. She is accomplished j boat racer. Been all over the world doing it. Put her at the helm. She sat down to leeward staring at the slot. She was great fun except she had no concept we weren't on a race course so had to basically stand watch and remind her what was coming up to windward.
In November had 2 crew Hampton Va. to North Sound BVI. One was a racer and a bit of a rock star. No clew initially on electronics or weather or water conservation or basic issues of a transit but by his 3rd watch totally tuned to all the offshore issues. Possibly one of the best crew I have ever had. Kept the boat moving, fearless and never bitched. We would fool some with trim and I did learn some from him and I hope the contrapositive.
Other crew said he had earned a living for decades moving boats. Total ass. "I like a lot of vang". When I followed his watch would retrim and pick up 1/10 to 1/2 a knot . 
Thing is when you get on someone else's boat it's their boat,their show. You go with the flow. There is only one captain on a boat.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

On my boat, I'm captain. You don't [email protected]#k with my boat unless I tell you to. You may suggest trim but you may not criticize.
Sometimes, I go along on my own boat as crew when I take a racer along and I trim for them. They never seem to enjoy it as the boat is not set up for racing. Fact is, I could not care less whether or not it has sails, I'd prefer emissionless free quiet cold fusion power but as that doesn't exist, I use sails. If I end up going waaaay too slow, that is what the engine is for.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

I'm a mellow bay sailor. I go out to enjoy the day. Sometimes that means pushing her hard, sometimes it means sailing her flat while we enjoy snacks in the cockpit.

So far the folks I sail with have been good about that and a gentle reminder has been enough. 

There are one or two people I just don't sail with. Why go out with someone who's going to stress you out? If I wanted stress I'd go into the office instead of down to the boat.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

You could say " Hey man don't do that. Thanks. " Smile. 

If he continues as if you haven't said anything - very loudly - "Yo!" and hands back and forth waving him off. Shake head. 

Continue to drink coffee. Observe. 

If he continues to ignore you, well .. you have a boat hook? Its hard to trim sails when the captain is shoving that thing at you hard. It helps if you laugh while doing it.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

kjango said:


> Couple weeks ago I had a racing sailor on my boat . We were going along pretty good , making way nicely , & I was on the tiller drinking coffee admiring the water going by when he started tweaking everything. Five minutes later the boat is on it ear , the mast is shaking , my coffee is on the deck of the cockpit spilled , & the rig is about blow up . So......I came up on the wind higher as the boat was wanting to round up anyway til everything eased . He then turned to me & said ,"You weren't supposed to change course ." I didn't want to make a big deal out of it . He's a nice guy & I was trying to be a nice guy when I asked him along as his boat was out of service so I laughed it off & pointed out on my boat I often just change course as my mood suits me . The thing is this . I've seen this movie a few times . First off , I like to race as well , but having said that......not EVERY sail is a race . But more often then not when I've had racers on my boat it's some version of what I just described. Why is it that often when racers are aboard they feel comfortable sailing your boat their way & then take umbrage when you point that out to them . More often then not what comes next is a critique of my sailing from them which doesn't really smooth things over for me . I have a few miles under my keel & I choose to sail the way I sail as my preference & on my boat my right . This is actually the first time I haven't ended up being the bad guy cause I just kind of shrugged it off like I described . What I think is reasonable is that when on someone else's boat to follow that person's lead . It's not a huge issue as I mostly sail alone , but it is a recurring one & causes me to wonder at their mindset. Input ???


Is there some reason that you, as helmsman AND skipper, did not tell the guy to ease the sheet, loosen the vang, tighten the backstay, etc?

Your rationales could run anywhere from: "I don't want to push my boat that hard and stress anything / break something," to "I don't want to spill my coffee," to "Dude, this is MY boat and that's what I damn well want.:hothead" or anything in between...

I would give him another chance, but speak up about what YOU want... It is your boat - right?


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Your boat is your boat. If he trimmed the sails to cause you to be on your ear, then how were they trimmed before? Did you have too much sail up and just let the sails flog? 

I like proper sail trim. I am uncomfortable when the sails are not properly trimmed, so I make adjustments. If someone wants to do that, and they do it properly, have at it.

My biggest beefs are things like leaving your captain and diet cup laying around. If I go down below and I see the aftermath of a fraternity party. If you prepare some food/drink, can you clean it up? 

And, can you please take your dump before going sailing with me?

Thanks.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

I like to play with all the strings on my boat and I like to optimize performance. I don't like to helm, I'd rather someone else do that or I use the autopilot. To me, it's more fun to tweak things and see if performance improves. Note that performance doesn't always mean speed. If I'm sailing with novices, improved performance may mean less heel or a more comfortable course. 

When I sail on OPB (other people's boats) I will follow their instructions. Their boat, their rules. If I see something that I think should be done differently I will say something like "I think easing the main halyard tension will give the main a little more power." or "the topping lift is too tight and is preventing us from pointing higher." If the captain (owner) wants to make an adjustment I will do it, if not, no big deal. If the captain gives me a reason why he wants the trim like that, I'm fine with that too. Oftentimes, I have been surprised that the captain just didn't know any better, and appreciated a little bit more knowledge, or were surprised their boat could sail so well. 

I have learned lots from sailing with others, and I hope others have learned from sailing with me. 

I take other people out all the time. I ask what they expect to do. If they want to sit back and enjoy some time on the water, that's fine. I'll do the sailing and they can relax (and at least be a good passenger). If they want to learn about sailing I will accommodate by explaining what I'm doing and why, and then let them do it. 

Usually once a year a bunch of my buddies get together and we sail away for a long weekend. These guys are motivated sailors and I love it. They jump at the chance to do everything - raise sails, lower and flake the main, hoist the anchor, adjust the sheets, plot a course, make lunch, clean the dishes, drink rum and tell interesting tales. For me, those sails are the best.

Barry


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Sailing any boat is a question of balance and communication. If you have a new crew aboard who is tweaking sails for you, great. But you need to communicate when the trimming creates too much weather helm and slows the boat. Or when easing too much slows the boat. Or when you think moving the traveler to windward might be good. Or when easing the jib might be a great idea. And all the other possibilities. Then you BOTH need to look at the speedo, and YOU need to verify that you are on course. Sounds like more communication as to what each part of the equation was doing would have helped in the results of the original scenario here.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

A racer could easily feel that whatever sails the skipper chose to hoist should be trimmed correctly. That is the thing to do. If the skipper actually wanted to sail more slowly, then why was the boat over canvassed (which is what the OP is telling us, if proper trim made the boat go faster)? Why didn't he make some off hand comment that "yes, we have a bit more canvass up than I feel like right now; I guess I'll luff or stall a little." That would have been a more effective communication.

I absolutely understand the OP's point, and it is well taken, but why over canvass and possibly flog sails? I hate seeing a boat with sails eased that should really be reduced. Why not ask the busy body to help take in some canvass?

Just sayin'.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Hey..the guy spilled your coffee! and instead of cleaning it up and handing you a new cup he criticized you? That's just rude.


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

1. Gimballed mug holders.

2. What were settings compared to tuning guide or sailmaker guidance?

3. Good crew can also tweak for slow if you need to "sandbag" to fool others into thinking your boat is slower than it really is; with enough negative tweaks you should make good progress toward a dead stop. How much slower trim than your polars/optimum velocity did you request?


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

After much reflection I'm gonna take the blame on this one . I'm so used to sailing alone that I give little direction to others . I'm more of a drink my coffee & watch the scenery go by kinda guy . I think this one was my bad . I know the guy I was sailing with to be a good guy & I'm sure he had the best of intentions .


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

Jaramaz said:


> No, sailing with others is just fun.
> 
> Your extent of leadership is just fine. Most do not want more.
> 
> ...


Give him two beers to keep his hands busy.


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## toastchee (Mar 8, 2006)

Let em tweak but tell them to keep it soft. racer's gon race. keep him occupied and out of your hair.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

I like toastchee's advice. The whole point is to have fun - for all aboard. Good communication is key.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

kjango said:


> After much reflection I'm gonna take the blame on this one . I'm so used to sailing alone that I give little direction to others . I'm more of a drink my coffee & watch the scenery go by kinda guy . I think this one was my bad . I know the guy I was sailing with to be a good guy & I'm sure he had the best of intentions .


Sorry, I am not going to let you off the hook. That guy was plain rude. I have had racers before, and the polite ones 1) observe how you do things before acting, and 2) Ask before they start tweaking/adjusting. Experienced sailors understand the role of the captain, and respect that role (even if the Captain is at fault).

I enjoy having racers on board - and often learn a lot from them. I normally chat beforehand, explaining that my boat is a cruiser not a racer, but I am open to getting the best out of her; some guys are fine. Other say "sorry, I can't help myself, I tend to be aggressive out there", okay I respect that.

Then there are some folks who think they know a lot. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. They do things their way, and because it is not their boat, often screw them up. "I have owned a boat for 20 year, so know what I am doing". Often true knowledge is inversely proportional to the amount they talk about it (on reflection, the quieter, respectful sailors are generally the ones who know most!). Those guys I don't have a lot of time (or space) for.

So before you have somebody new on board, as the captain you probably give them a safety talk regardless of experience, and then have a quick chat about sailing style and sailing plan. If they then act like your guest did, then you may not want to invite them back again!


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