# Why All the Absurd Circumnavigation Threads?



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

What accounts for all the absurd circumnavigation threads?

I would guess some percentage less than 1% of all keelboat sailors ever circumnavigate. I would also guess fewer than 5% even become blue water sailors (I don't include ICW snowbirds in this category). The vast majority of sailors are satisfied by racing, daysailing, and weekend cruising. Yet a significant portion of the threads involve a planned circumnavigation. These threads regularly border, at best, on the ridiculous, and, at worse, on delusional thinking.

This would not appeal to me. From my reading, it would be time consuming, expensive, uncomfortable, and arduous. Living aboard a small boat and crossing oceans for several years would likely be torturous and unpleasant. Both Robin Lee Graham and Tania Alebi (?) wrote about how much they hated it at times.

Is this a Walter Mitty issue? Someone wants an achievement? Purely a fantasy detached from reality? So lacking in experience that they have no conception what it involves?

Why psychology lies behind the circumnavigation threads?


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

If you go on a mountain climbing forum there are probably a disproportionate number of threads about climbing the Seven Summits, or some other goal that is claimed by relatively few. Everest without oxygen perhaps. Why? Why not.


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## juggleandhope (Jun 4, 2012)

I'd also guess that the virtual world inspires more fantasy - probably down at the yacht club the focus shifts back to fixing the broken winch and trying to figure out local currents.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> These threads regularly border, at best, on the ridiculous, and, at worse, on delusional thinking.


They say that more people summit Mt Everest each year than complete a circumnavigation. (No climbing Mt E this year, of course)

The thing that irritates me about those threads is that mostly the responses to the threads are encouraging "Go for it DUDE!" Non-circumnavigators saying this, of course.

The fools that enhance the delusions on this and other forums are, imho, worse than the original posters.

For those who are interested in the reality "out there": the average size cruising boat is above 40 feet. Mine at 39 feet is QUITE below average size.
There are NO 27 foot boats circumnavigating that I have seen. There are VERY few 30 footers... I.e. I haven't seen one.

Mark


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I see this kind of artificial goal much like most of the the other "bucket list" ambitions so many people have these days. Our culture turns everything into a competition, a race. We're taught that we have to have a plan, something to achieve, to conquer. So naturally sailors must circumnavigate, usually at break-neck speed. And we all cheer them on (know full well most will never get off the dock).


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

People have dreams. Not all accomplish them. Ft Lauderdale is full of boats for sale by people with big dreams that reality did not reflect.

SailNet and other fora, publications, and the yacht club bar are reasonable places to explore those dreams. The best we can do is to help more of those dreams be realized so the dreamers can come back and contribute to the next generation.

Pay it forward.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I checked up the word "fora".


So finally forums have taught me something. 




Mark


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

People have something to aspire to, dream of doing. something to work towards. Many people race, play amateur sports and so on. Most dream and wish to be in the big leagues. The circumnavigation seems to be the pinnacle if you will. 

For me it was my wifes idea to become cruisers. I latched onto it and it has given me a new meaning, purpose or dream to follow. Before sailing, cruising and idea of living aboard I was a racer, semi professional on a budget and after wasting tens of thousands of dollars and creating more debt than I care to think or talk about I had enough. My wife and I were very deep in the american dream, Homeowners, new cars and gadgets and as a result in debt. We both decided we wanted simpler and less, less of everything including WORK. So we started looking at minimalist type living and have slowly but surely working our way to our new goals. This is our new goal and direction. We want to sail and see parts of the world. Live more work less. Our small sailing home hopefully will take us there.

We have no idea if we will become cruisers or liveaboards but for right now we are dreaming and working towards that dream. Some days is seems achievable other days itseems like we are stuck in the rat race for ever.

So I think many people come on here and other sites to find out how others accomplished a circumnavigation or became liveaboards in hopes of finding something or a bit of information that will let them get closer to their dream


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Marinas, boatyards, anchorages and shorelines are littered with the dashed dreams that the reality of circumnavigating has left behind. Honolulu, St. Martin and Grenada, to name but 3, where some pretty nice boats are lying and dying, because this thing, voyaging, that some of enjoy as a lifestyle, just isn't what most imagine.
We constantly meet folks who have sold EVERYTHING, bought a nice boat and after a few months are headed home, disillusioned, disappointed and financially unable to reclaim the life they so cavalierly abandoned.
This is not an "extreme sport", with wonderful moments of adrenaline pumping excitement, interspersed with relaxing times around the hotel bar with blow dried hair that it looks just right, a nice bed after a shower, a shave and dinner with like minded individuals. You can't just call a cab if things are getting a bit unpleasant and looking like they will get worse. It has been described as 99% sheer boredom with 1% sheer terror, by some.
There are those few, who are drawn to the sea, and they will get out there on whatever they can, however they can, with little fanfare and hype. They are not the macho type, seeking fame, fortune and notoriety by doing it youngest, fastest or smallest, nor do they ask silly questions on forums where a simple search would produce hundreds of posts to answer their attention seeking questions.
As with anything, the looky loos are always there, kicking the tires with neither the true desire, courage nor the where with all to actually become "buyers".


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

I think it's becoming more and more easy to buy "accomplishments." Seeing large numbers of people buy these "accomplishments" leads other people to falsely believe that a particular feat is a singular goal in and of itself, when in fact most extremely difficult feats in our history have been the FINAL ACT that tops off years of preparation, learning, and collaboration among experts. 

Nothing is more irritating than developing a skill and expertise over many years, and then discussing it over beer with someone and they say, "So all I have to do is...?"


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I checked up the word "fora".
> 
> So finally *FORA* have taught me something.
> 
> Mark


Fixed it for you.


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

I am the dreamer. An old man in need of one "Last Adventure". I read every thread in hopes of gleaning some scrap of information. Derek Lundy's Godforsaken Sea is enough to give second thoughts to anyone. Some of the threads on here are almost as frightening, but I still need that last adventure.
The happiest times in my life have been while my life rested in my own hands. I suppose that I am an adreanline junkie. 
Why others desire to buy a boat I wouldn't know, as for me the thrill, the adventure, and the freedom hopefully will remind me of my foolish youth. When I did more than a few things that should have been fatal.
As I learn more about boats my picture of a functional voyaging boat has matured, still a long way to go.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

jameswilson29 said:


> What accounts for all the absurd circumnavigation threads?
> 
> Not sure. but people might just want a little more variety in lives that can be pretty boring and stultifying at times.
> 
> ...


Anyway, that would be my reaction to it.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

good on ya killarney for that response

its a dream...whatever someone thinks about it can go suck it in my opinion...its up to you to make them a reality

simple really


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

'One man's meat is another man's poison.'

If you are content to sail, cruise or race locally or in confined/sheltered waters that is your prerogative. If your dreams of being on a boat do not go further than spending an afternoon on the bay, so what? They're your dreams.

The beauty of dreams is that they are unfettered by reality - I mean I've had some dreams about Halle Berry that were totally unfettered! But I digress....

I happen to be one of the Walter Mittys who do dream of sailing off into the sunset. My wife on the other hand does not yet share that dream. The reality of relationships is that there must be a respect for the needs and desires of each partner. It is this reality that has prevented me from fulfilling my dream. This is not to say that I haven't come out ahead as my life experience has exceeded my wildest dreams. (except for that thing I mentioned about Halle Berry.)

However, after over thirty years of whining, browbeating, begging, threatening etc. I think that I may have convinced my wife that my dream (of sailing) may be a viable option. We are actively taking steps to fulfill my - now our - dream. We are studying, training, planning budgets etc. in order to make the dream a reality.

So when I read threads about circumnavigating or blue-water crossings, or anything related to those pursuits, I dive in and pan for the gold that some of them contain.

You can't deny that people have circumnavigated - in fact a few contributors to this site have done so. The information and insight that I glean from their posts goes into the vault. Sure there's a low signal to noise ratio on many of the threads, but so what? Don't you ever sit in your cockpit, or at the marina bar and shoot the bull with your sailing buddies? A lot of what is said is total crap, but there is often a glimmer of knowledge that comes out - a truth that you would not have otherwise found. That is how I feel about this site and many of the threads.

If you can't get together with a bunch of sailors and air your sailing dreams and fantasies where can you?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

95 percent crap spewed and 5 percent gold...

take that 5 percent and run with it!

a dream is a dream...its part reality but mostly a fanstasy, its when those fantasies turn reality that the importance of life can be appreciated....

what I think is absurd is always the amount of naysayers and people who are so bought into living the dream on land that they often forget that life can have other things and epxeriences in it...


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

My circumnavigation dreams are in multi-step tiers. I realize that there may be any number of reasons why I can't or won't want to complete a circumnavigation. My goal is to cruise the Great Lakes for an indeterminate amount of time. If I want to go further, have more, time, enough money, trust my boat... then I will cruise the Caribbean. If that goes well, then I will make other plans. At any step of this plan I may decide what I have done is all I want to do.

I really don't think there is anything wrong with setting lofty goals, and discussing them in a clear-headed way with other sailors.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sometimes all you have is dreams. Cherish them.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I've got nothing against the dreamers. All reality starts with a dream. My gripe (if I have one ... I really don't care that much) is with our tendency to turn everything into an extreme sport. It's not good enough to go sailing or cruising, you've got to go fast, go far. You've got to visit everywhere worth visiting, and see it all. You've got to stare down the face of Nature, and you've got to win! You've got go, go, go. 

Bah...

There is wonder and beauty everywhere. I don't need to sail around the world to find it, and I certainly don't have a check list of buckets I have to see and do. I set off soon. I may meander my way around the world, or I may find myself the perfect little anchorage and never move again. The real journey is within.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I've always figured that when I got tired of the great Pacific Northwest I'd perhaps try other areas. But I can't see that happening.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

My life is the dash between the day I was born and the day I die. Every goal I reached started as a dream and added content to that tiny dash. Every dream I had led me to learn something new and added content to that tiny dash. I would hate to think my parents felt that was absurd.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I checked up the word "fora".


Next we can talk about antennae.

I don't expect to ever circumnavigate. I never expected to cross an ocean either but that happened. Who knows?


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> The real journey is within.










=


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I have a day off from the world of playing music, too sick from a mild case of the flu to do much of anything other than check to see what's posted here. Sure wish I could go back to drinking margarettas again. 

Interestingly enough, about 30 years ago, I decided to circumnavigate, but not the globe, instead, I did the Delmarva Peninsula. I did this in a 21-foot center console powerboat with my loving wife. The boat was powered with a 150-HP Yamaha outboard, was fully rigged for offshore fishing, capable of speeds to 40 MPH on calm days, and had sufficient dry storage for all our clothing, fishing gear and even a laptop. The trip covered 696 miles in just 11 days, we caught more than a dozen species of saltwater fish, traveled up to 55 miles offshore of Virginia's barrier islands, and spent each night sleeping in the air conditioned comfort a waterside hotel or motel. It was an incredible trip to say the least, and the weather failed to cooperate on several occasions.

My next voyage took place last fall, when I traveled down the length of Chesapeake Bay, and the ICW, eventually stopping in Marathon Key, Florida. The trip was a bit grueling, mainly because of mechanical breakdowns, unseasonably cold weather, high winds and frequent storms, including Hurricane Sandy. I made the trip south single handed, but had a friend with me on the return trip, and only 300 miles of the total voyage was offshore, primarily along the coast of Georgia and Florida.

After all the reading I did about the ICW, I anticipated seeing a virtual armada of boats along the way - WELL, that was rarely the case. There were lots of days in early October when I had the ICW to myself, never saw another boat other than a couple commercial fishermen, and some tugs and barges.

After arriving home, from both trips, there were always friends that said "Wow! I wish I would have done that." All were boat owners, many had boats far more capable than mine, yet, they rarely left the confines of Chesapeake Bay's upper reaches, and some never ventured more than a few miles from the marina. Their voyages were all less than 50 miles in any direction, often just to a waterside restaurant or nite-club. Most of the time their boats were tied safely to the docks, while they sat in the cockpits sipping their favorite cocktails. 

I suspect the actual percentage of folks that own cruising size sailboats that actually cruise is less than 1-percent, and I'm being very optimistic. Many have the spirit of adventure in their minds, but when it actually comes time to provision their boats, hoist the sails and point the bow at the distant horizon, a voice from inside says they cannot leave the comfort of their living-rooms. Now I could be wrong, and according to my loving wife of more than a half century, I'm always wrong, but I think that 1-percent figure is probably not too far off the mark.

Now, my wife says I'm absolutely out of my mind, especially when I began talking about celebrating my 75th birthday on the ICW in 2015. My health is shot to Hell, but much of this is totally out of my control at this point. However, if I can still manage to hoist those sails and navigate, I'll be among the 1-percent that makes their way south again, and I'll likely be doing it single-handed. Why single-handed? Well, believe it or not, of the dozen or so people that said they would want to go with me the last time, all backed out at the last minute, claiming one excuse or another. Go figure. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I don't think the dream of circumnavigating is absurd. What I often find troubling is the plan (or not) to make it come true.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Hmm, my dream is a simple one. I want to spend my time living on/near the water.

Right now that's on Barnegat Bay but we're heading south; last summer we bought a place on the water in Marathon. If the current round of re-inventing myself goes as planned we'll be moving there in 2-3 years. We're trying to figure out if that means moving with our current boat or going to something a bit bigger and maybe knocking around the Caribbean a bit. 

What comes after the move to Marathon? Maybe Costa Rica, maybe something else, maybe even a circumnavigation. Who knows? 

Dreams are a wonderful thing -- sometimes they're even better when you decide to make them reality.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> For those who are interested in the reality "out there": the average size cruising boat is above 40 feet. Mine at 39 feet is QUITE below average size. There are NO 27 foot boats circumnavigating that I have seen. There are VERY few 30 footers... I.e. I haven't seen one.


I don't think this is true.

The reason I say that is I remember on an old thread when Donna Lange and Ken Barnes were both rounding Cape Horn, Mr. Barnes much larger boat got into trouble and there was a lot of discussion pointing out the fact that so many recent successful solo circumnavigations had happened in "smaller" boats. Ms. Lange's boat was a 28 foot Southern Cross, Jessica Watson's boat was a 34 foot Sparkman & Stephens, and Aron Meder's boat was only 19 feet long, as examples of fairly recent circumnavigations. I remember the discussion on that thread was that smaller boats may have fewer major problems that the sailor can't deal with just because of their smaller size, the basic idea being that it is a lot easier to deal with sails, etc, on a 27 foot boat than on a 44 foot boat.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> What accounts for all *the absurd circumnavigation threads*?


The absurd ones, and by absurd I assume you mean the ones that start off with "_hi i no nothg abot sailing and want to go round the world what do you salte tipes call it curcomenavigate hahaha i have a sunfish and $100 what do i need to buy can u spoon feed me the info to do it thnx Oh look squirrel!_"

These threads are like flowers poking up through the snow. They mark spring, the beginning of boating season, and the new crop of dreamers. Most who start with threads like the intro above just saw a shiny bit of varnish or stainless and the idea is passing through their head, much like a 30 second youtube video. Much like the flowers poking up through the snow, they can be rewarding to nurture but are also equally fun to step on. 

Hopefully you didn't mean to say that the idea to circumnavigate by boat is an absurd idea in a general sense. The idea of circumnavigating by boat, in my opinion, is not absurd at all, and can provide everything from simple daydreaming fodder all the way to giving someone's life a meaningful purpose to them.

MedSailor


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

wind_magic said:


> I don't think this is true.
> 
> The reason I say that is I remember on an old thread when Donna Lange and Ken Barnes were both rounding Cape Horn, Mr. Barnes much larger boat got into trouble and there was a lot of discussion pointing out the fact that so many recent successful solo circumnavigations had happened in "smaller" boats. Ms. Lange's boat was a 28 foot Southern Cross, Jessica Watson's boat was a 34 foot Sparkman & Stephens, and Aron Meder's boat was only 19 feet long, as examples of fairly recent circumnavigations. I remember the discussion on that thread was that smaller boats may have fewer major problems that the sailor can't deal with just because of their smaller size, the basic idea being that it is a lot easier to deal with sails, etc, on a 27 foot boat than on a 44 foot boat.


its absolute baloney to me...I had a portuguese friend that went around in a 27 footer, james balwdwin has done it twice in a 28 footer and many many more in mid to low 30 footers

the average is still mid 30s with the most popukar size being around 36-38ft...

which is what most older couple like to handle size wise...and all the things about $$ is true as smaller boats are easier to fix and repair and refit...


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

my plan to become a sailor is simplistic. Purchase and outfit a boat. Then go sailing 
a squal with small waves, then more,and deeper water with larger waves. If I am not discouraged I will continue. Non stop is not in my boldest plan. Though the thought of rounding Cape Horn is both terrifying and inspiring. If, If, If this is a huge word. The thrill and the freedom is what I expect attracts most people to voyaging. Desert Rat has walked the deserts and mountains of NM, AZ, and CO Now to the ocean, something I haven't done yet.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

I think there are two or three very different types of circumnavigation and the necessities of them are radically different. Trying to lump all of them together doesn't really work very well. 

The first is the solo non-stop circumnavigation. Frankly unless you are a very serious amateur with substantial funding, a very good boat, and a lot of deep water experience this is a really stupid idea. A trip like this is a pipe dream even for many solo sailors, and those people who I know that do long distance solo racing are still very hesitant about a trip like this. 

Next is the fast circumnavigation. The guy who wants to do the trip in a year or so. Doable, less money is required, less skill, less variety of skill, the boat doesn't have to be as well outfitted, ect. This is still a pretty serious investment of time and resources, but allowing yourself to pull into port and get supplies while waiting on a weather window makes a huge difference.

Finally are the cruising circumnavigations. This is just what happens when you start chasing the sun. Sure it takes a good boat and a steady crew, but is realistic for many cruisers. 


What I see are neophytes jumping in saying they want to do 1 when they aren't qualified to do 3. Then when people are critical people get defensive about it.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

the deserts of the middle east are something to behold! most inspiring!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

wind_magic said:


> I don't think this is true.
> 
> The reason I say that is I remember on an old thread when Donna Lange and Ken Barnes were both rounding Cape Horn, Mr. Barnes much larger boat got into trouble and there was a lot of discussion pointing out the fact that so many recent successful solo circumnavigations had happened in "smaller" boats. Ms. Lange's boat was a 28 foot Southern Cross, Jessica Watson's boat was a 34 foot Sparkman & Stephens, and Aron Meder's boat was only 19 feet long, as examples of fairly recent circumnavigations. I remember the discussion on that thread was that smaller boats may have fewer major problems that the sailor can't deal with just because of their smaller size, the basic idea being that it is a lot easier to deal with sails, etc, on a 27 foot boat than on a 44 foot boat.


Size of the cruising boat is also the livability factor. A couple who have retired and in their 50s or 60s will probably not do well in a 27 foot boat.

But, yes, for some solo circumnavigators, very young people, and non-stop circumnavigators there has been some small boats do it.
But generally the normal,average cruiser doing a tradewinds circumnavicgation over 3 to ten years has a boat that can wash the woman, sleep the woman without complaint, and allow reasonable cooking, a nice deck space for cocktails and a comfy spacious saloon for friends coming round.

Circumnavigating... Some people says its 99% boredom and 1% terror. Its not.
Its 90% at anchor and 10% on passages, say a bit over a month per year.

Of that month on passage its 90% good fun, 5% boredom, 5% task orientated and .001% consternation. I have never had a moment of terror or deep fear (except when I was anchored in a cyclone... That was fear, not terror)

So that thread about the solo guy wanting to non-stop circumnavigation a small boat would be fine. But thats not the general circumnavigation, and not the normal person who does it. Normal is a couple on a boat 42 feet or more who live in a fairly comfortable way (if the guy wants to finish the trip as a couple and not as a solo sailor!!)


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I checked up the word "fora".
> 
> So finally forums have taught me something.
> 
> Mark


Internet college says either usage is acceptable.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> its absolute baloney to me...I had a portuguese friend that went around in a 27 footer, james balwdwin has done it twice in a 28 footer and many many more in mid to low 30 footers
> 
> the average is still mid 30s with the most popukar size being around 36-38ft...
> 
> which is what most older couple like to handle size wise...and all the things about $$ is true as smaller boats are easier to fix and repair and refit...


Christian, that has not been our experience in the last few years. I will talk about boats we saw in South Africa since those ones are the ones that have passed the nasty bit. I would say the range of typical sizes would be 38' to 50'. Below this size there seems to be a bit of a gap - i.e. you don't see many boat in the 35-38' range and then you see some (not a huge number) in the 27-34' range. In general the bigger group are the older folks like us who have the money for a larger boat and want a bit more comfort and speed. The smaller boat group are almost always younger (<35) and on a tight budget. They seemed to be about half single handers and half young couples.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I dont see where we disagree...

most younguns are in the 35ft down group, some bare bone it some dont, some singlehand...most solo french boats are most certainly below 40ft...

then most couples, retired and the like are in the 35ft plus range but certainly way below 50 ft

I saw a lot of low 40s, like 41 42 and 43fters

my refute was that the *average* is way into the high 40s and 50s which was not my experience

at least for when we were out there

you just returned so you obviously have a more recent take on things

when we were out 10 years ago it was a bunch of 32, 34, 36 and 37 footers, older designs like pearsons, bristols and european benateus and the like in the 40 41 range(ex charter boats) and the oddball couple with a bigger 50footer...

and of course the frugal guys in sub 30 footers

like you say most younger couples and soloers where below 40ft...

we only saw one couple with a really big 55footer which was an oddball

cheers


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

10 years is a long time, Christian. And when you were out did you go to those places that Killarney is talking about where its really the last few legs of a circumnavigation and not the early or middle legs?

When we did the Gulf of Aden a few years ago, the year before the four Americans were shot, we had 26 boats on our convoy... I.e. 26 boats that were either on their last leg, or were already 3/4 the way around the world. Just like South Africa and those stats, there was, i think, only three boats smaller than mine: Fatty Goodlanders 38, a cat about 30 ft with a young couple and a steel 36 with a young family. Biggest boat was a 75 footer.

And even Fatty has bought a bigger one for his current circumnavigation!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Mark-
"They say that more people summit Mt Everest each year than complete a circumnavigation. "
Considering that no one summits Everest without a lot of PAID PROFESSIONAL HELP (the Sherpas) I suppose the comparison would be chartering a boat with captain and crew, rather than circumnavigating on your own. No?

And James-
If it is ridiculous and delusional to discuss circumnavigating...Why did you start _another _thread about it? Got a problem with other folks dreaming? Do you begrudge them that?


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Just as the OP can't imagine cruising to exotic destinations being fun or worth the hassle I can't imagine living in Richmond Virginia forever and being satisfied with nothing more than a weekend cruise.

Not that that is a bad life, but I wouldn't be satisfied to never at least dream of one day going to Fiji. 

We all start somewhere. I agree that most people that post these questions won't ever do it, but some might, and some might intend to, and get sailing, and do something not as bog, but still get deep into sailing.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

just to add to the discussion a bit here is a list of entries from the very popular baja haha, yeah its a rally but its a good way to judge boats...

by the looks on the entries you guys are right most boats these days are in the low to mid 40s...having said that this is not indicative of circumnavigators size

*
Talion / Gulfstar 50 / Patsy Verhoeven / La Paz, MEX
Arluk III / Cabot 36 / Wayne Peters / Vancouver, BC
Quest / Golden Wave 42 / Michael Thirkill & Cybele Abbett / Brookings, OR
Family Circus / Lagoon 470 / Chris & Heather Tzortzis / San Francisco
Champagne / Hunter 456 / Yhomas Junod / Newport Beach
Cavale / Cheoy Lee 44 / Michael & Mary Tutty / Seattle, WA
Long Windid / Jeanneau SO 42 CC / Daniel & Marla Slattery / Chula Vista
Wind Dancer / Hunter 466 / Phil Helman & Desley Oliphant / Pleasanton
Abby Normal / Island Packet 41 / Brad & Gay Gibson / Seattle, WA
Third Wish / Norseman 447 / Jeff Goldfarb / Long Beach
Penelope / Hans Christian 38 / Karl & Susan Gierga / Scappoose, OR
Kandu / Tayana V42 CC / Eric & Leslie Rigney / Ventura
Cool Change / Pacific Seacraft 31 / Rick & Cindy Patrinellis / Sausalito
Optimus Prime / Beneteau 49 / Keith & Dana Jensen / Cameron Park
Plan Sea / Island Packet 45 / Richard & Jenny Freeman / San Diego
VikingMor2 / Morgan OI 41 / Kenneth & Lori Lillo / San Diego
Impulse / Hunter 336 / Chris & Doug Rockne / Portland, OR
Freya / Cal 2-46 / Steven Straitiff / San Diego
Starshine / Outbound 44 / Patrick & Melodie Williams / San Francisco
Starfire / Islander 32 / Jeff Delaney & Dawn Brooks / Channel Islands
Nova / Catalina 42 / Michael Pernitzke & Ina Tabak / Alameda
Sisu III / Kadey Krogen North Sea 48 trawler / Ron & Janet Inberg / Seattle, WA
Mana / Cape George 36 / David & Holli Swanson / Ventura
Pelagic / Hallberg Rassy / Michael & Amy Bradford / Portland, OR
Petrel / Rhodes Annapolis 30 / Dane Faber / Sausalito
Miss Lorelei / Beneteau Oceanis 361 / Michael Niggli / San Diego
Destiny / Island Packet 38 / Roberto Anima / Redwood City
Indigo / Pacific Seacraft 34 / Brian & Marya Lipiec / Camp Pendleton
Scoots / Able Apogee 50 / Eric & Vandy Shrader / San Francisco
Papillon II / Pacific Seacraft 37 / David Boyer / Vancouver, BC
Between da Sheets / Beneteau 42s7 / Rick & Sharon Seeber / Seattle, WA
Double Docs / Pacific Seacraft 37 / Thomas Balgooyen & Lucie Merkle-Balgooyen / San Francisco
Cockpit / Beneteau Oceanis 440 / Renald Bouchard / Vancouver, BC
Saturna Spirit / Beneteau 411 / Katherine Blade / Vancouver, BC
*
when I was in the gulf of aden, in 2006 on the last leg towards the med, it was a weird year since there was a flotilla of spanish and catalan boats, inlcuding a catamaran we buddy boated with

again back THEN we were in the smaller range...our boat was a 37 ft steeler...yet there were about 50% bigger and 50% smaller, including a frenchman we became great friends with in a 31ft steeler too...

maybe back then the economy was worse, or whatever but yeah I guess it does seem the average size has gone up a bit, slightly

cheers

cheers


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Many who do the Haha never get much further. The Hunters, for example, would never make it, so you can just take them right off the list. 

MedSailor


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> Many who do the Haha never get much further. The Hunters, for example, would never make it, so you can just take them right off the list.
> 
> MedSailor


yeah I know...it was just something I ran into while checking todays lectronic latitude...

almost 80 percent of those boats never go past mexico..anyways...but its interesting to see from a statistical point of view...

its not like there is a list of boats getting ready to circumnavigate somewhere?

I was one of the 20 percent that kept going...

having said that I was in a old restored 28ft wooden ketch jajajajajajaja

peace


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## Ded reckoner (Feb 17, 2013)

Statistics bear out the difficulty of circumnavigation. The achievement is a difficult solution successfully combining aspiration with preparation and opportunity. 

I met my wife at a sailing club so the aspirational seeds were implanted in both of us many years ago. Likewise, many other dreamers can probably recall the first spark of interest and that ambitious itch for something more or bigger that persistently demands to be scratched. 

I've articulated to my wife the goals of crossing oceans and even circumnavigation. Consistent with Stumble's definitions, when it happens, our circumnavigation would best be called incidental. The Admiral has not signed up for even an ocean crossing yet but is keeping an open mind about things as we take classes and progress through successive challenges. My strategy is to jointly build a solid foundation of experience and knowledge, and keep adding achievements that increase confidence and lead somewhere. Over a long enough period of time, one thing leading to another might add up to a circumnavigation. Looked at another way, if a circumnavigation were broken into the smallest possible pieces, there's almost nowhere that doesn't sound appealing as a destination in its own right. If there are so many attractive destinations and there's resolve to experience most of them, a circumnavigational itinerary becomes just a matter of longitudinal ordering.

There have been several threads inquiring how to earn money sufficient to enable full time cruising. It has struck me as most realistic the many answers disclosing work is done in conventional jobs to afford sailing during time off. I suspect those with the sharpest visions of circumnavigation are attempting to realize their dreams by saving, learning, and gaining experience. Like us, it might be retirement from the rat race is decision time. Even so, for us, it might be just a decision to acquire a boat of sufficient capability and cast off to the first destination which will be incidental to the circumnavigation. And we'll see how it goes and how far it goes. Since we haven't bought the big boat yet, we don't even know from where we'll be departing for greater adventures.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Ded reckoner said:


> I suspect those with the sharpest visions of circumnavigation are attempting to realize their dreams by saving, learning, and gaining experience. Like us, it might be retirement from the rat race is decision time.


I think Sailnet is full of people who are considering doing it this way, but I'm not sure the ocean is full of them.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

You will see me there one day and I will post here to say I did. Or at least get to the South Pacific. I don't care so much about saying I circumnavigated. I just want to go to the South Pacific and Mediterranean at least before I die. 

I think I post a new post every spring. I've got a cal 20 can I sail to Hawaii. I've got a ranger 23. Can I sail to Hawaii. And the much anticipated upcoming. I've got a bristol 26, can I sail to Hawaii?

They won't let you do the jaja solo, what's that all about? Well they lost me unless I find a sailing chick stat. I don't know that I wouldn't rather do it myself. Baja is on my maybe list for this year. As a matter of fact I'm going upstairs, I've got one of those prepaid navionics cards and I'm putting BC to port hardy and Baja on it. Just for in case. Hate to get caught in San Diego with no Baja charts.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

killarney_sailor said:


> Anyway, that would be my reaction to it.


Living aboard a small boat and crossing oceans for several years would likely be torturous and unpleasant. Both Robin Lee Graham and Tania Alebi (?) wrote about how much they hated it at times.

"Perhaps you need to broaden your reading then. There are a few circumnavigators on this forum and I don't think any of them would use these descriptors of the experience."

I for one would have to agree with "torturous and unpleasant." and "hated it at times." as a correct description of sailing offshore, in general and circumnavigating in particular, at times. If you think otherwise you've either been miraculously lucky or haven't done it. That doesn't mean I don't sail offshore or that I'll never sail again, any more than it means I won't go for a long walk outside because it might rain and I'd get cold and wet.
I don't think anything is always fun or good.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

What I found interesting is that the size of boats that had got as far as South Africa was smaller than the boats that were going (say) from Oz to Indonesia in the rally. I did a very quick survey of the 100 or so boats and the average was about our boat at 45'. The average in South Africa was around 42-43'. There seemed to be lot of Ma and Pa boats going (and staying) in Thailand/Malaysia. Many of these were in 45 to 55' range. Some were getting their boats loaded on a freighter to go to the Med, some were selling there. Many were prepared to wait for a couple of years to see what happens with the Red Sea route.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

I enjoy learning other sailor's dream or their plans to sail the ocean or circumnavigate. It inspires me, helps me to check on my own plan, improves my chance of survival. Likewise, I enjoy reading sailing adventure books learning how they made it to tell us about it.

Every adventure starts with a dream. It may be absurd at first, but it will get better when you are ready.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

This all goes into the IMHO category:

I think it takes some time on the water to figure out who you are. Some are circumnavigators, some are offshore passage makers, some are coastal cruisers, some are full time cruisers, some can cruise for months at a time, some can cruise for a week, some can cruise for a weekend, and some just enjoy a daysail.

The only way to figure out who you are is to go out there and experience the type of sailing you think you want to do. There's lots of good advice here about what each type is like, but the advice will only get you so far.

Try some long offshore passages, take a leave of absence and do some long term cruising, do some day sails....it's all fun then figure out what kinda sailor you are. Like getting good at choosing wines, the process itself is the reward. 

Do this before you sell the farm and wave good buy to your friends as you sail away.


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## Mycroft (Sep 27, 2013)

I bought a boat (Slocum 43), that should be able to circ, but I have no set plans for doing it come hell or high water. 

We're just going to cruise the Puget Sound until we're comfortable. If we're still having fun, we go to Alaska. If we still are having fun, then it's San Diego. Then HI, etc.

We do plan on doing a couple of weeks out in the ocean before starting a passage, but all plans hinge on having fun.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I think that a cruiser setting a goal of a circumnavigation is kind of like a runner setting a goal of a marathon. It just seems to be taking something you like and turning it into something painful.

Doesn't mean people don't do it, but you can enjoy cruising without circumnavigating just as you can enjoy running without doing a marathon.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Don0190 said:


> I think that a cruiser setting a goal of a circumnavigation is kind of like a runner setting a goal of a marathon. It just seems to be taking something you like and turning it into something painful.
> 
> Doesn't mean people don't do it, but you can enjoy cruising without circumnavigating just as you can enjoy running without doing a marathon.


I think that would be a good analogy if the only way that you could see the park, the prettiest flower garden in town, the antique shop, the statue of the cities founder, and the pub with the best sandwiches, was by running a marathon.

For many, the only way they'll be able to really see the world is by sailing around it.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I didn't realise that some would use the forum to dream. That fine. Now that I know it I will be more empathetic.  
At the same time theres no value to stoke the dream of a person who suddenly tries to achieve a thing he is best just reading about.

I will start by inventing some fishing stories because I am the worlds crappiest fisherman and we only caught 5 fish in 30,000 miles  The cost in lures was about $20 per kilo of fish caught.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> theres no value to stoke the dream of a person who suddenly tries to achieve a thing he is best just reading about


Why not ?


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

For me, BOTH the dream AND the reality have value. I have gone out for a 4.5 month cruise and I know how much I love it, and felt, at the end of the cruise, like I was just getting started. So I know I'll go out again, and I am pretty darn sure I'll enjoy a longer cruise, warts and all.

Now the bits between now and when I go on the big cruise are not all just hard work. All this time spent mentally obsessing and dreaming gives me something to do. I never learned how to meditate, and don't have a TV, so I have to keep my mind busy and I enjoy obsessing about sailing. 

Y'all should be grateful that I obsess about sailing all day! If I weren't who knows what I'd be up to. I could be in a remote mountain shack licking stamps and wiring up bombs. 

For the record I do plan to circumnavigate, but just not the globe. My big goal is to sail to, and circumnavigate Australia. Basically we want so sail down and explore Australia, but adding the circumnavigation qualifier adds some challenge and general direction to planning the trip. Besides, there's good stuff to see all the way around. 

MedSailor


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

see its that kind of attitude in the 99 percent dont do it crowd that irks me

just the comment your better off reading about it smacks me as so pedantic

btw there a lot of people who do great things only to become huge naysayers after doing these things to those wanting to do it themselves, dont know why but I have met them

its almost like a game at school where one kid does something so awesome that he wants nobody to mimick or replicate his great feat...its HIS!

nobody can have it! jajaja

man

I can almosty BET the op(james of this thread and others of circumnavigation threads) wants none of this crap we have all expounded on so deeply

yet another guy lost to the crap!

peace


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

wind_magic said:


> Why not ?


I am talking about some of the loony toons we get on here, thats all. If we tell the all "sure do the Pacific in a bathtub" and they get killed trying it, its a bit irresponsible, isn't it?


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

It is OK to dream.



> All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.
> 
> T. E. Lawrence


I like to think of myself as one of the dreamers of the day.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I am talking about some of the loony toons we get on here, thats all. If we tell the all "sure do the Pacific in a bathtub" and they get killed trying it, its a bit irresponsible, isn't it?


I'd just be afraid that I was letting my own beliefs about my own limitations get in their way, that's all.

The only real way to know what you can and can't do is to try to do it and see what happens.

If one person can do something, another person can do it, and plenty have circumnavigated on a boat.

If nobody has ever done it, you might be the first.

What follows isn't directed at MarkofSeaLife, I'm just expanding on one of the thoughts above. Mark raised an interesting point, I think, and I went off and did a search on "discouraging unrealistic goals" because I wanted to see what other people thought about the idea. I ended up reading the thoughts of a bunch of parents about whether it was a good idea to discourage or encourage unrealistic goals in their children. I was amazed just how many of those parents were discouraging their children from doing what I think many here would consider completely normal goals, goals such as going to college, or writing a book, all because they wanted to protect them from harm. Seriously, writing a book ? Like a quarter of a million people in the United States write a book every year, I think pretty much any kid that set their minds to it could accomplish a goal like that, and I'm surprised that anyone would discourage someone from doing something like that. But that's the point I was making above - I'd be afraid to discourage someone just because I don't think its possible, because who am I to decide what is and is not possible ? Let them go and do it themselves, only by pushing against the real world can they find out what their own limits are.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

wind_magic said:


> I think that would be a good analogy if the only way that you could see the park, the prettiest flower garden in town, the antique shop, the statue of the cities founder, and the pub with the best sandwiches, was by running a marathon.
> 
> For many, the only way they'll be able to really see the world is by sailing around it.


This is a very important post (not mine, the one above) in case you missed it. We did not do a circumnavigation because we wanted to do a circumnavigation. We did it because it is the logical (and easiest) way to visit a whole bunch of interesting places. I guess if you wanted to go to French Polynesia you could go there and then loop back to the Americas either north or south with the westerlies but those are not particularly easy or pleasant trips. When we were in FP we looked at the possibilities downwind and it was do we want to go to Tonga, New Zealand, Cook Islands, Australia, etc. It quite literally was a world of goodies to choose downwind from where we were.

To me a rtw trip is really a series of individual passages to places that sound interesting to visit, linked by the general wish to have pleasant sailing (i.e head downwind in the tropics)


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> They say that more people summit Mt Everest each year than complete a circumnavigation. (No climbing Mt E this year, of course)
> 
> The thing that irritates me about those threads is that mostly the responses to the threads are encouraging "Go for it DUDE!" Non-circumnavigators saying this, of course.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but there is at least one 32' boat out there doing it! BRISTOL 32 at that! (talk about small and tight!) SAND DOLLAR

Their new blog.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

So you don't want to sail around the world? Dude, go for it!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Judging by the boats I've seen coming through Sydney (Aus) the past couple of years it does seem that most cruising boats are in the 35 - 55 ft range with a much smaller percentage under that range and bugger all above. Of those in the range 40 - 50 seems the most common. 

I can recall two sub 30'ers that were or had circumnavigated with another that is cruising but not necessarily circumnavigating. 

The bigger stuff probably only comes to Sydney for the NYE fireworks and then buggers off. Reality is if they are here they don't mix with the likes of me anyway.

Now there was a point to all that when I started typing an hour or so back but I've quite forgotten what it was. 

Nonetheless for those of us without a sailing background from our youth the beginning of our love for all this probably started with reading the books of the great circumnavigators of the pre 1960s era and so the idea of a circ became a very early part of the dream and a part that was often the first to be ditched. 

I've most certainly not done what I so boastfully claimed I was going to do but I still managed to have a lifetime of love of sailing and being on the water in general. Some disappointment with plans not fulfilled but overall pretty much content.


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## ravinracin (Apr 21, 2010)

What psychology lays behind you starting this thread? If you find these threads so absurd, why would you even give them a glance? I would love to see the rest of the world that as of yet I haven't. Will I on my boat? Probably not, but it is possible. I have read and I can't quote from where right now, but at any time there are about 3000 boats circumnavigating. Most are not US citizens but a lot of people out there. Each of these must have started as a dream. What do you dream about?


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

bobperry said:


> I've always figured that when I got tired of the great Pacific Northwest I'd perhaps try other areas. But I can't see that happening.


Same here. I would rather explore every island in the Caribbean, in detail, than race around the world, just to say I did it.

I'm 56 and I think it will take the rest of my life just to explore my own backyard (relatively speaking).


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

Any time someone asked me if I'm going to sail around the world when I retire I always say I'm going to sail ABOUT the world. I may only get to New England, Maybe only the Caribbean and maybe only on OPB's. 
But I find as I do more and more offshore sailing I want to do more and see more.
And yes, usually about the second day I find myself asking why in the F&%$ am I doing this again!?
But hey, it's only 46 days til the start of NEWPORT/BERMUDA!


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## sugarbird (Dec 23, 2013)

I think social media and "lifestyle" TV, mags, web sites, etc., sort of promote fantasy. Combine that with the frustrations of modern life, and all the marine gadgets that make it a lot easier/less risky than in days of old, and you wind up with a perfect storm for fantasyland style daydreaming.

I've seen more than a few folks select and buy a bulletproof slug of a boat and prepare it for ultimate storm conditions, then weight it down with every friggin' boat show "cruising essential" they can cram onto it and pay for. A goodly number in short order find the reality doesn't measure up to their expectations, and then they really don't do much sailing at all!

But if they are living their lives the way they want to, who cares? I've become pretty charitable in my old age, and if people are having fun with their boats, even if they rarely leave the dock, screw it, good for them IMHO!


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I was at a small boat show yesterday with my wife, and we met another couple aboard a forty-something foot Hunter. While my wife talked to the salesman on deck, I went below and got into a conversation with the other couple. These two knew nothing about "big" boats. They just started sailing and own a JY15. The wife was ooohing and ahhing over the beautiful wood and craftsmanship aboard this Hunter, and the husband was telling me that he really wanted to do some bluewater sailing. Instead of telling them how little they knew about boat construction quality, or how different the real ocean is from Long Island Sound, I just said something like "if you like this boat, check out the other boats down the dock (Alerion, IP, Hanse, etc.). They don't need me to pee all over their dreams of sailing away. 

We all dream about doing things we never will do; we go to boat shows to oogle boats we could never afford, we visit places we'll never live, and sometimes we are moved to post those dreams on line. Sometimes the cluelessness of the poster annoys me ("What's the best boat for a circumnavigation?"), but sometimes they post interesting questions. I don't feel the need to encourage or discourage. If they're going to go, nothing anyone here says will stop them. And if they're not really going to go, all the encouragement in the world won't make a difference.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Every sailboat owner started out with a day dream.

We're just the ones who decided to make that dream a reality. 


Why discourage someone else from doing the same? 

Encourage them to start with a smaller boat and learn a bit by sailing locally or maybe take a class or two. Reality has a way of refining your dreams. They'll figure out what's right for them.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I'd love to be a snow bird. winter in the south. summer in the north. I hate weather over 80 degrees. I know it won't happen. My O30 is probably capable of the trips, but I'd want a larger boat. "Maybe" if my health stays good and "maybe" again if, I were able to sell off my ties to land.. I'd make the dream come true, but I don't loose sleep over it anymore. crossing the pond... northern passage, around the world... eh. Go read Joshua Slocum for the old way. and go on you tube and watch the installments from people like Drake Pedragon and the Pardeys

Joshua Slocum Quotes - BrainyQuote
And now, without having wearied my friends, I hope, with detailed scientific accounts, theories, or deductions, I will only say that I have endeavoured to tell just the story of the adventure itself.

Joshua Slocum


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

well said!


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

My dream is to sail around the world. I bought a used bathtub on Craigslist and I think the steel sides will provide excellent protection against pirate bullets. I already have an umbrella which I plan to use as a sail. Do you think this will be enough, or should I get a bigger umbrella?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

too much ballast for my liking

je


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

You're starting out with broken rigging. Rather unsafe and irresponsible.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jajaja yeah a spoke is gone awol there...

also the load has been improperly stowed therefore creating an unbalanced design...I see being pooped in the very near future a given


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

http://24.media.tumblr.com/00206236e0c4c8b7d7e4f3901c3e839e/tumblr_n1j4b4iGWU1qjm9bpo1_500.png


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Minnesail said:


> My dream is to sail around the world. I bought a used bathtub on Craigslist and I think the steel sides will provide excellent protection against pirate bullets. I already have an umbrella which I plan to use as a sail. Do you think this will be enough, or should I get a bigger umbrella?


You get an idea in your mind about what various posters look like. This is not the image of you I had in my mind - just goes to show &#8230;

Anyway, back on topic. I think you need a new, bigger umbrella to use most of the time and a smaller, 'storm' umbrella - after all you need to be properly prepared. The umbrella in the pic I would keep for a bimini. In a pinch it could do as a backup for the other sails, err, umbrellas.


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## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

For me, the highest level is that sailing is the ticket to freedom.

At the next level, it is about finding empty waves to surf. This puts me in the Pacific and Indian Oceans. First explore the coasts of Central and South America. Then explore the South Pacific. I plan to see Teahupoo and Cloud Breaks when they are at their finest. Then pass through New Zealand and Australia on the way to the Indian Ocean...Bali, Maldives, Mentawiis, Maritius. If my health, boat, finances hold, then 15 years will have gone by when I show up in either South Africa or the Med....depending on Samali pirates.

For now, the dream became reality when I became the owner of Cheers. Every weekend since January my week is planned around projects to make her a proud vessel. I spend too much time reading SailNet (where else would I find that the 1/2" thru-hulls are not up to today's standards) and have become a sponge for information. Each day the dream transforms into reality. Any day with my boat is a good day. It doesn't matter if I ride home cussing because some project didn't go as planned or if I ride home really excited because the bottom coat looks so good on her. Any day with my boat is a good day. I am really happy that there is no police force to keep me from this....ASA 101 and docking next weekend.


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## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

storm umbrellas are the black ones right?


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

jameswilson29 said:


> What accounts for all the absurd circumnavigation threads?
> 
> I would guess some percentage less than 1% of all keelboat sailors ever circumnavigate. ...


You are really bad with statistics

Try 0.01% instead of 1% and it would be much closer to reality


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I think with the right amount of chain we can fix that stern down trim problem.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

A comma is not a decimal point. Learn English.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> A comma is not a decimal point. Learn English.


Just a hunch, but I'm guessing Paolo's mastery of English is far better than yours of Portuguese


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

northoceanbeach said:


> A comma is not a decimal point. Learn English.


The numbers we use are not "English" they are actually Arabic. Much of the world uses the comma instead of the decimal in the way it is used in America. I think your post betrays your ignorance in the area of language. Perhaps you should consider travelling to more contries to broaden your understanding, perhaps by sail.

PCP is from Portugal and is a valuable contributor to our forum and he DOES contribute to us in English, even though it is not his first language.

1. The following countries use a decimal point not only in money matters but in general arithmetic (e.g. £2.50; 123.45):

Australia, Botswana, British West Indies, Brunei, Canada (English-speaking), Dominican Republic, Guatemala, Hong Kong, India, Ireland, Israel, Japan, Kenya, Korea (both North and South), Lebanon, Malaysia, Malta, Mexico, Nepal, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Pakistan, People's Republic of China, Philippines, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Switzerland (only when the amount is in Swiss francs), Taiwan, Tanzania, Thailand, Uganda, United Kingdom, United States (including insular areas), Zimbabwe.

2. The following countries use a decimal comma not only in money matters but in general arithmetic (e.g. €2,50; 123,45):

Albania, Andorra, Argentina, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Belgium, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Canada (French-speaking), Costa Rica, Croatia (comma used officially, but both forms are in use elsewhere), Chile, Colombia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Estonia, Faroes, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Greenland, Honduras, Hungary, Indonesia, Iceland, Italy, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lebanon, Lithuania, Luxembourg (uses both marks officially), Macau (in Portuguese text), Macedonia, Moldova, Mongolia, Netherlands, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, South Africa, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Tunisia, Turkey, Ukraine, Uruguay, Venezuela, Vietnam.

MedSailor


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Very not cool Northoceanbeach, on many levels.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Wow Med, I did not know that. I love it when I learn something.

Do you know anything about Heaven?


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

bobperry said:


> Wow Med, I did not know that. I love it when I learn something.
> 
> Do you know anything about Heaven?


Why yes I do, thanks for asking my good sheep. The comma has a tail, therefore it is evil. In heaven they use the decimal when accounting your good deeds and bad.

Here endeth the lesson.

MedSailor


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

"The comma has a tail, therefore it is evil."

Got it. I can understand that.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

killarney_sailor said:


> You get an idea in your mind about what various posters look like. This is not the image of you I had in my mind - just goes to show &#8230;
> 
> Anyway, back on topic. I think you need a new, bigger umbrella to use most of the time and a smaller, 'storm' umbrella - after all you need to be properly prepared. The umbrella in the pic I would keep for a bimini. In a pinch it could do as a backup for the other sails, err, umbrellas.


looks like a riding umbrella to me...way under canvassed...jajaja


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I say we fine him 2.5 ( 2,5) million USD and then make him sell the basketball team.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Just a hunch, but I'm guessing Paolo's mastery of English is far better than yours of Portuguese


ZIIIIIIIIIIIIIING

man!

what the hell is up with that comment?


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## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

It's sad that a serious question can become such a free for all. This happens entirely too often here, where someone posts a question and in just a few posts there's no actual meaningful content being added to the conversation.

That's it. This is a waste of time. I'm takng my boat and going circumnavigating. 

...um...does anyone know if I should sail around to the East or to the West, which is easier? I've listened to all my Jimmy Buffet songs twice, and there's just no info about it.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

MedSailor said:


> your post betrays your ignorance


Just leave it at that.

N.O.B. has shown his true colours!


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Minnesail said:


> My dream is to sail around the world. I bought a used bathtub on Craigslist and I think the steel sides will provide excellent protection against pirate bullets. I already have an umbrella which I plan to use as a sail. Do you think this will be enough, or should I get a bigger umbrella?


First of all, you have not chosen an offshore capable vessel. That looks like a production tub to me. I'd suggest a more traditional claw footed tub double ender, than is much less likely to get loose rudder authority when you're in force 10 conditions in the southern ocean.

For the type of vessel you have selected, it is important to equip with safety systems that allow you to cope with various hardships but are space efficient. I'd suggest bringing along at least 20 rubber duckies. They will keep you company incase you get lonely on your solo circumnavigation, which will clearly take years in such a traditional vessel. If one or more are washed overboard, you will have spare friends. Additionally, with a proper length of string, you can tie the duckies together and create a series drogue to avoid pitch poling when running down 30 ft waves. They can also be used as fishing lures, and the string doubles as fishing line.

You've already gotten great advice on the correct suit of sails (umbrella's) for offshore work.

Enjoy the trip.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

SoOkay said:


> It's sad that a serious question can become such a free for all. This happens entirely too often here, where someone posts a question and in just a few posts there's no actual meaningful content being added to the conversation.
> 
> That's it. This is a waste of time. I'm takng my boat and going circumnavigating.
> 
> ...um...does anyone know if I should sail around to the East or to the West, which is easier? I've listened to all my Jimmy Buffet songs twice, and there's just no info about it.


sorry if I contributed to the madness but I agree

I also for some reason reacted compulsively to the title of the thread

peace


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

This whole thread is silly. 

Everyone knows if you sail too far you'll fall off the edge. Sheesh


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

JimMcGee said:


> This whole thread is silly.
> 
> Everyone knows if you sail too far you'll fall off the edge. Sheesh


dont forget the dragon

ok thats it Im out...sorry


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## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

christian.hess said:


> dont forget the dragon
> 
> ok thats it Im out...sorry


It's easy to miss the dragon. On some maps they've drawin it right where it is. You have to have the right maps.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

capecodda said:


> I'd suggest bringing along at least 20 rubber duckies. They will keep you company incase you get lonely on your solo circumnavigation, which will clearly take years in such a traditional vessel. If one or more are washed overboard, you will have spare friends. Additionally, with a proper length of string, you can tie the duckies together and create a series drogue to avoid pitch poling when running down 30 ft waves.


I definitely wouldn't set off to sail around the world without having my ducks in a row.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

SoOkay said:


> ...um...does anyone know if I should sail around to the East or to the West, which is easier? I've listened to all my Jimmy Buffet songs twice, and there's just no info about it.


These three guys sang that they got out of town on a boat goin' to Southern islands Sailing a reach before a followin' sea. She was makin' for the trades on the outside and the downhill run to Papeete. Off the wind on this heading lie the Marquesas we got eighty feet of the waterline nicely making way.

After that they started talking about their relationship problems and stopped giving directions, so I think you're on your own from Papeete to Australia.

Edit, oh, they did offer some celestial navigation tips.

Just my 0,02$us


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sook:
It's on Son of a Sailor.
But you have to play it backwards.


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

All I want to do is to go and chase the horizon, if I fall off the eadge so be it. 
When I leave port my destination will be Bristol, any port even Bristol. 
I will be on a sailboat so you know which way I am going, wherever the wind blows me.
I was born free and the world has attempted to enslave me, need I ask why I an 
going to the sea.
KISS why do people always try to complicate things.


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## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

Back to the original post...Just say only 0.01% of sailors are out cruising. That means the people you talk with at local boat yards and marinas only sail locally. Hence, you must come to an international forum to get information on a topic that is rare in a local area. I have not talked with anyone locally who shows an interest in leaving the local area, except when they have a duplicate of their 40 ft power boat in Ft Lauderdale...along with another house  I can't even dream that big at my age.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Rat:
I think you need some accordion to go with that.


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## stoomy (Jul 8, 2008)

Why does Rice play Texas?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Actually I think storm umbrellas should be orange. Mine are old-fashioned and white, or maybe mine are just not racing storm umbrellas.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

gbgreen59 said:


> Back to the original post...Just say only 0.01% of sailors are out cruising. That means the people you talk with at local boat yards and marinas only sail locally. ....


Have a look at the first post on the thread: that percentage (that was modified by me, the original was 1%) does not regards the "sailors that are out cruising" neither the sailors that go offshore, just the keelboat sailors that actually have circumnavigated in relation with the total number of sailors.


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## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

PCP said:


> Have a look at the first post on the thread: that percentage (that was modified by me, the original was 1%) does not regards the "sailors that are out cruising" neither the sailors that go offshore, just the keelboat sailors that actually have circumnavigated in relation with the total number of sailors.


Yup, I meant to quite the modified number.


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## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

I have found it difficult to find some people or even somebody in my area that has an interest in circumnavigation. I will meet more people as the season gets going, but in general I've found that people sort of shut down when I bring it up. I've just sort of dropped it and try to blend in...obviously not so much here on SailNet. But I am very determined on this, but also am very much attempting to be cautious in every respect.


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## ReefMagnet (May 8, 2008)

Probably repeating what people have already said, but from my own experience the whole wanting to circumnavigate thing was the initial lure to get into sailing. I guess the reason is that it is the circumnavigators that make the news and write the books and this is the stuff that the newbies lap up. As personal experience and knowledge is gained, the idea of a circumnavigation perhaps mellows as one starts to understand the complexities and logistics associated with undertaking such a task. I still might do that circumnavigation one day, but it's no longer the prime objective.

That's why I think we end up with the circumnavigation threads. Had I discovered some of these sailing sites in the early days, I probably would have asked the same silly questions!


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## Osprey 26 (Jun 28, 2013)

Thank you OP for good question. Why All The Absurd Circumnavigation Threads?
As always here on SN interesting debate. Not always directly following the subject.
We will get there with answer when we iron out our right to different opinions.
Here is my try to answer.
We can probably blame first sailors, so we are not to blame as being first ones who did go around.
Joshua for his own reasons did it solo. 
For now I am dreaming when ready sailboat and I just to go out on open ocean out of sight of land to see what is like. And who knows.........
Call it curious.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

gbgreen59 said:


> I have found it difficult to find some people or even somebody *in my area *that has an interest in circumnavigation. I will meet more people as the season gets going, but in general I've found that people sort of shut down when I bring it up. I've just sort of dropped it and try to blend in...obviously not so much here on SailNet. But I am very determined on this, but also am very much attempting to be cautious in every respect.


Dude! It's because you live in Iowa. 

I had 3 couples that had circumnavigated living on the same dock that I lived on in Seattle. That was 3 couples out of maybe 100 boats on that dock. Half the other boats had circumnavigation dreams/plans.

MedSailor


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> Dude! It's because you live in Iowa.
> 
> I had 3 couples that had circumnavigated living on the same dock that I lived on in Seattle. That was 3 couples out of maybe 100 boats on that dock. Half the other boats had circumnavigation dreams/plans.
> 
> MedSailor


i live in austria and i know of a whole bunch of fellow austrians who are or have done circumnavigations...
Österreichische Langzeitsegler | Unter Segeln
these are only the ones right now on their way, the 2 at the end of the list have done it (seenomaden are on their 3rd trip) and i know of probably double the amount listed here which have circumnavigated the globe also... norbert sedlacek has done it single handed, just to name one...

i really do not find the figures now on how many boats are registered in austria or how many do have a certification for offshore sailing... but i wager the numbers are only a few percent from our 8.5 mill inhabitants...
so living in a country with no access to the sea is no hindrance...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capecodda said:


> This all goes into the IMHO category:
> 
> I think it takes some time on the water to figure out who you are. Some are circumnavigators, some are offshore passage makers, some are coastal cruisers, some are full time cruisers, some can cruise for months at a time, some can cruise for a week, some can cruise for a weekend, and some just enjoy a daysail.
> 
> ...


That's pretty much my take on it, as well. I'm baffled by the apparent numbers of folks out there who set such a lofty goal before obtaining much in the way of offshore experience, or as we see here with the sort of regularity which I believe prompted James' question, with little to no sailing experience at all...

As others have noted, so much of this is due to the Bucket List Mentality that seems to have infected virtually every activity today. The confusion between 'pastimes' and 'accomplishments', and the pure love or enjoyment of doing something, and the _IDEA_ of doing something... I know people who have crossed one of the current crazes - the climbing of Mt Kilimanjaro - off The List, who would never dream of spending a week hiking and climbing in a place as pedestrian as the Adirondacks or Green Mountains, because they really don't enjoy hiking or climbing, at all... 

No doubt many here will disagree, or are tired of hearing me cite what I feel to be the significant percentage of cruisers I encounter who don't really seem to enjoy sailing that much at all, because they do so precious little of it  Or, as Smack's other thread about the difficulty of passagemaking illustrates, how many out there may not appreciate some of the unpleasantness involved in voyaging, how much different it can be from the sort of sailing/coastal cruising most of us do. Seems to me you damn well better figure that out before thinking seriously about a circumnavigation. If I could point the finger at a single causal element to to the recent abandonment and rescue of REBEL HEART, I would say it was their failure to do so, coupled with Eric's apparent obsession with doing a circumnavigation - and doing it as soon as possible, rather than preparing more, doing more sailing as a family together, and waiting until the kids were a bit older. And, I certainly don't think it is 'naysaying', or 'the destruction of someone's Dream', to point out the vast discrepancy that so often exists between the _IDEA_ of sailing around the world, and the reality of actually _SAILING_ around the world, and how being as ill-prepared or inexperienced as the crew of REBEL HEART was, will not favor the chances of success.

There was another recent loss of a boat off Australia in the past few days, another family at the opposite end of the budgetary scale from the Kaufmanns, who by the time they were into the Pacific, realized their 'dream' wasn't all that it had been cracked up to be. Even aboard a $700K Lagoon 500 multihull doing it in high style, the wife had already abandoned the voyage, and the boat was being taken to Australia to be sold. One of the hulls apparently "cracked" after encountering 35 knot winds, another offering from Groupe Beneteau to King Neptune bites the dust after a dust-up with near-gale conditions 

One of the things I love about cruising in Maine, is that it's the one place above most others where I see the greatest percentage of other people sailing for the pure pleasure of it... Taking each day as it comes, ghosting along under sail alone in light airs or less than ideal conditions, not necessarily to a fixed schedule or itinerary, simply being out on the water, enjoying _Sailing_...

Every summer, however, it seems more an more Bucket Listers 'from Away' show up, motoring everywhere in a rush with rope cutters on their shafts, and their Honda 2000s on deck, ready to add some ambient background noise of Civilization to a place like Hell's Half Acre...


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

"Just as a cautious businessman avoids tying up all his capital in one concern, so, perhaps, worldly wisdom will advise us not to look for the whole of our satisfaction from a single aspiration."

-Sigmund Freud, neurologist, founder of psychoanalysis (1856-1939)


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Wouldn't it be refreshing to read a novice write about how he or she would like to become high point champion of his or her local yacht racing club, or to become a competent coastal cruiser who enjoys a yearly week long vacation with his or her family, or to become a safe captain who entertains guests afloat...

Instead, the novices want to circumnavigate, then subsequent threads reveal that they can't leave the marina or the inlet without help from the U.S.C.G. or TowBoatUS, can't compete in a club race without a serious injury or a MOB, or can't leave the dock because they don't know how to start the inboard.

There is a comical discrepancy between absurdly unrealistic goal of circumnavigating and the simple enjoyment of the pasttime most of us derive from sailing.

I suspect if they had realistic goals to begin with, we would not see 98% of the same boats tied up at the marina every weekend...

To the merchants out there, make sure you fleece them while you can! Pretty soon, reality will set in...


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

jameswilson29 said:


> Wouldn't it be refreshing to read a novice write about how he or she would like to become high point champion of his or her local yacht racing club, or to become a competent coastal cruiser who enjoys a yearly week long vacation with his or her family, or to become a safe captain who entertains guests afloat...
> 
> Instead, the novices want to circumnavigate, then subsequent threads reveal that they can't leave the marina or the inlet without help from the U.S.C.G. or TowBoatUS, can't compete in a club race without a serious injury or a MOB, or can't leave the dock because they don't know how to start the inboard.
> 
> ...


James, I realize it's been a long winter but how cynical !


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## Kostis (Apr 18, 2014)

When i was a kid and started playing soccer, i started dreaming that one day, i would play for Manchester United. Then again i could have been down to earth and thinking i am only going to play with my neighborhood kids. Are you joking???? Envisioning makes the world go around. If someone is thinking that they will never go offshore why become better? Why take a course in VHF or Radar? A simple book and a couple of hours on a dinghy would do. Its the dreams that makes us try more. The dreams are the nest of effort and achievement. 


I think not to have threads that some people do not agree is the OPPOSITE of free speech and democracy. Those threads useless or not, are judged only by the people they decide to comment. Meaning, while people have an interest in them, then they will always exist. 


If it is fantasy or not, has very little value to know the answer. Fact is that dreaming feeds our souls.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

I think there is a difference between dreaming and fantasy.


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## Pamlicotraveler (Aug 13, 2006)

Another related question is why is the fantasy often a "circumnavigation," which implies a start and a finish point. Why not just go to places you want to go on your boat; take your home into foreign ports? That was our fantasy. Everyone has different objectives, and ours was different.

We wanted to go sail and live on our sailboat and after years of dreaming of it, we did it and crossed the Atlantic in 2012. We have been cruising the Med; Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Albania, Turkey and are moving now. Maybe we will go back West and circumnavigate, but that isn't a goal in itself, for us mind you - I am not discrediting the goal - but we'll not see it as an objective on its own.

We have several sailing friends that are in the process of achieving their goal of "circumnavigating," but because of the Red Sea Piracy situation they will complete their circle going South of Africa instead of going through the Red Sea and Suez Canal into the Med.

For us the calculation has been "what is the point of circumnavigating (circling the globe while crossing the equator) if you miss the Mediterranean Sea....Europe, the Middle East, North Africa"? You have circumnavigated but you missed an important part of the world - A cultural gold mine and a wonderful cruising ground. Most circumnavigators now are missing the Med.

Just a thought


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

ScottUK said:


> I think there is a difference between dreaming and fantasy.


Correct. Being shot in the back of the head by a jealous husband while leaping from a second story window with my trousers down around my ankles and a 19-year-old gal screaming "don't leave me - don't leave me" is one of my fondest fantasies. Never had a dream along those lines, though!


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

People are always asking us if we are sailing around the world. We answer "No. We are just sailing around". We have no plans to climb Mt Everest either.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> There are NO 27 foot boats circumnavigating that I have seen. There are VERY few 30 footers... I.e. I haven't seen one.


Oh Please. While we have no plans to circumnavigate, We know of half a dozen Vega 27s that have done so, some solo, others with crew, and there are certainly others of which we are unaware. That is just Vegas. What about other designs?

Some small boat circumnavigations may fall into the category of stunts, but there are a good many 30 ft and under boats out here cruising and many of them have or will complete full circumnavigations of the globe. Get your nose out of the air and you might notice.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

bobperry said:


> I've always figured that when I got tired of the great Pacific Northwest I'd perhaps try other areas. But I can't see that happening.


That is what I thought about Hawaii...

...until I left.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

Mycroft said:


> We're just going to cruise the Puget Sound until we're comfortable. If we're still having fun, we go to Alaska. If we still are having fun, then it's San Diego. Then HI, etc.


Mexico is a nice change from Puget Sound. Hawaii really has little to offer cruisers as a destination but is a nice resupply point.

Free advice: (Received from a PNW sailor and passed on as true and correct in our opinion) Save Alaska for last.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

vega1860 said:


> People are always asking us if we are sailing around the world. We answer "No. We are just sailing around". We have no plans to climb Mt Everest either.


That's more or less my response. When landlubbers hear we're moving onto our boat and sailing away, most ask if we're going to sail around the world. My answer is, _"We have no plans to circumnavigate, but if the winds blow us that way we might. Who knows..." _


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## travellerw (Mar 9, 2006)

Thats funny I tell people the complete opposite.. 

I find that they are way more accepting if there is a goal. 

If I tell them "We are going to sail around the world", and they usually just say "ok". If I tell them we are going to live on a sailboat and cruise around, they shake their head in disbelief and ask "Why". 

In actual fact.. We have no real destination plans...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

10 years ago my dream was to "do the clock". I started to get real serious and ran through the economics and logistics in detail. Had multiple heart to hearts with my bride. Bought the particular boat I did with this in mind.
Now realize if it occurs it will be because it is the natural evolution of our lives. It is no longer a bucket list thing. Rather will spent the next two years snow birding. If it comes to past we do the Panama canal to the S. Pacific so be it. If it comes to past we're in Thailand and say next stop Table Mountain so be it. It short if it's an organic evolution fine. If we are having fun and comfy doing other stuff - it's all good. Something like this you do for yourself. Not for bucket list or testosterone driven reasons.


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## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

This vid speaks well to the idea of pursuing your dreams...

SLOMO on Vimeo

I have always liked the way Mike O'Reily articulates pursuing the vision/dream and converting it into reality.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

travellerw said:


> Thats funny I tell people the complete opposite..
> 
> I find that they are way more accepting if there is a goal.
> 
> ...


I tell people the opposite. I tell them my plan is to have nowhere in particular to be and no schedule to get there. People seem to be jealous of it when I tell them.


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

> For us the calculation has been "what is the point of circumnavigating (circling the globe while crossing the equator) if you miss the Mediterranean Sea....Europe, the Middle East, North Africa"? You have circumnavigated but you missed an important part of the world - A cultural gold mine and a wonderful cruising ground. Most circumnavigators now are missing the Med.


Oceans are basically boring ( and I like the sea and have a few under my belt) . I much prefer pottering around interesting coasts.

dave


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

You only live once, each of us has in our own hearts what dream makes us happy.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Pamlicotraveler said:


> We wanted to go sail and live on our sailboat and after years of dreaming of it, we did it and crossed the Atlantic in 2012. We have been cruising the Med; Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Albania, Turkey and are moving now. Maybe we will go back West and circumnavigate, but that isn't a goal in itself, for us mind you - I am not discrediting the goal - but we'll not see it as an objective on its own.
> 
> We have several sailing friends that are in the process of achieving their goal of "circumnavigating," but because of the Red Sea Piracy situation they will complete their circle going South of Africa instead of going through the Red Sea and Suez Canal into the Med.
> 
> ...


If I may, I would suggest that if you go the South Africa it does not mean you miss the Med or other parts of Europe. You just go up the South Atlantic and turn right rather than turning left.

Couple of points in favour of going to Southern Africa - South Africa, Namibia, and St Helena were well up in our list of places we have visited. One of the nice things is that none of them is very busy with cruisers so you are not in a cruiser destination with all that entails. Also, going from Cocos-Keeling to Rodrigues we had the absolutely best sailing of our lives.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Dreaming and fantasizing are but iterations of existence. The idea of sailing around the world is ancient, from before we knew it was possible, and is etched into the psyche. It may be many things, but for sure it is difficult to talk about in most normal situations without people thinking you are crazy. What did Slomo call it, a personal delusional system? So what better venue to expose your personal delusional system than an internet discussion group that talks about your personal delusional system?
John


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

ccriders said:


> ... The idea of sailing around the world is ancient, from before we knew it was possible, and is etched into the psyche. ...


I'd go in a heartbeat if I had a monarchy or some such to sponsor me. I'm sure there's _something_ that still needs discovering. A seamount or two to plant a flag on.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

All about the dream my man, all about the dream.


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## mbauer013 (Apr 7, 2014)

jameswilson29 said:


> Wouldn't it be refreshing to read a novice write about how he or she would like to become high point champion of his or her local yacht racing club, or to become a competent coastal cruiser who enjoys a yearly week long vacation with his or her family, or to become a safe captain who entertains guests afloat...
> 
> Instead, the novices want to circumnavigate, then subsequent threads reveal that they can't leave the marina or the inlet without help from the U.S.C.G. or TowBoatUS, can't compete in a club race without a serious injury or a MOB, or can't leave the dock because they don't know how to start the inboard.
> 
> ...


This reminds me of the commercial with little kids stating depressing dreams, like "I want to climb to the ranks of middle management," and such. That may be where people end up, but I doubt any of those things is a dream. If we don't have big dreams, we won't get very far at all since it's just not very motivating to do anything. I am one of the newbies you all are speaking of, and while I have a dream/idea/feeling that I would like to circumnavigate, it isn't solely for the sake of doing it, and I'm not hell bent for leather on doing it either.

We'll do it slow and at our pace, learning and perfecting as we go. Right now we are sharing a boat and sailing on a lake on weekends, next step is to charter for a few weeks, then buy our own boat (when we know enough to know what we want) and try to cruise more and more frequently for lnoger strtches and distances.

At any point we may say, "this is where we are happy, lets keep doing this" and that'll be just fine.

Our dream may not become our reality, but it will get us closer to where we want to be than 99% of people who choose not to dream.


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

There is a very simple reason why people don't visit the med while circumnavigating,
If you taste the food and wine around the Med you never want to leave.
It takes a serious case of itchey feat (wanderlust) to circumnavigate. Personally I seam to have a terminal case, I am only happy when I am climbing the hill to see if it is greener on the other side.


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## kzed (Nov 8, 2008)

Well I'm with Dave, it's all about the dream.
If I was given the choice of circumnavigating in a 28 foot boat, or not circumnavigating at all; I would chose the 28 foot boat.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

The best part about circumnavigating is afterwards. You don't feel any different but other sailors actually listen to your opinion (except on forums):

"Hey! you're anchored too close!"
"No, I'm not. I've Circumnavigated!"




Mark


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> The best part about circumnavigating is afterwards. You don't feel any different but other sailors actually listen to your opinion (except on forums):
> 
> "Hey! you're anchored too close!"
> "No, I'm not. I've Circumnavigated!"
> ...


I just wanted to finish that anchorage discussion for you


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## Kielanders (Dec 8, 2011)

Unless the person has FU money, enough to buy themselves a rig and setoff in a month, the time involved in putting together an ATW trip is a buffer - and it's time enough to sober-up and appreciate what they're trying to do. In which case, if it starts with a dream, so be it.

The few things worth a crap that I've accomplished in life, all financially and physically risky, all started with a dream. This world's so screwed-up, if I wasn't able to dream, I'd of checked-out long long ago.

I look back on the threads I've posted on this site over the past few years - it's apparent I was very green, and maybe a do nothing dreamer. I'm still green, but now I'm doing it. From 3 years ago to now - the knowledge and advice I've received on this site helped me identify and get the perfect little pocket cruiser for my goals.

Christ, I got personal advice from gifted guys like Bob Perry & CharlieCobra on this site through IMs. Via the internet, I got advice from a now elderly naval architect in Sweden, that worked with the chief naval architect to design my boat 40 years ago. In what other world would I have been able to friggin' talk to these guys?

When I first bought my boat, I went out a few times - and said, 'Yep, I know this from my youth, a little more time, and I can do this', I brought it back home (live a 1/4 mile from the harbor), got a copy of This Old Boat, and stripped everything for a total refit inside and out. I know exactly what I want to do long term, and am fitting it for just that. When I go out again in 6 months, I'll know every single stinking nut, bolt, & screw on that boat.

My goal, to leave our bay, take my first right, into the Bering Sea, and sail up to cross the Arctic Circle, then come back home. And, depending on the mood of the wife via sat phone calls, I may instead cross the circle, take a left, and do a suicide run at the Northern Sea Route.

...that's my dream, flame away friends.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

desert rat said:


> There is a very simple reason why people don't visit the med while circumnavigating,
> If you taste the food and wine around the Med you never want to leave.
> It takes a serious case of itchey feat (wanderlust) to circumnavigate. Personally I seam to have a terminal case, I am only happy when I am climbing the hill to see if it is greener on the other side.


The problem with the med in what concerns a circumnavigation are two:

there are so many nice things to see an to experience that for knowing it decently you need several years.

and the med is quite nasty on winter. Not properly a problem with the temperature but it is not wise to keep cruising on winter time, except occasionally. That increases even more the time needed to know it and it deserves to be well known.


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> People have dreams. Not all accomplish them. Ft Lauderdale is full of boats for sale by people with big dreams that reality did not reflect.
> 
> SailNet and other fora, publications, and the yacht club bar are reasonable places to explore those dreams. The best we can do is to help more of those dreams be realized so the dreamers can come back and contribute to the next generation.
> 
> Pay it forward.


Great point and thanks for making it a positive one that encourages new folks in a positive way.

And why are there not more threads with this as the general tone. Frankly, I am into many many sports and the associated forums that go with them. I find an interesting correlation.

There are threads like this constantly on here disparaging other peoples dreams. And, sailing is possibly a dying sport. Sad on both counts. When a new kayaker comes onto a site about whitewater and asks about class V, they aren't berated as delusional freaks. The online tone of sailing is very negative compared to other "dangerous" sports. Just some food for thought.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

PCP said:


> the med is quite nasty on winter. Not properly a problem with the temperature but it is not wise to keep cruising on winter time, except occasionally. That increases even more the time needed to know it and it deserves to be well known.


And what better reason could there be to take an apartment Barcelona, Roma Marseilles, Oslo, Stockholm .....? A couple of weeks here and then there and what do you know, it's time to go again.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

AlaskaMC said:


> There are threads like this constantly on here disparaging other peoples dreams. And, sailing is possibly a dying sport. Sad on both counts. When a new kayaker comes onto a site about whitewater and asks about class V, they aren't berated as delusional freaks. The online tone of sailing is very negative compared to other "dangerous" sports. Just some food for thought.


Actually, if you read the threads, they are not portrayed as "dreams", they are present intentions or plans, to be commenced in the near future, without any knowledge, experience or resources. Therein lies the problem.

If a novice came on the forum and wrote, "I loved reading "The Dove" by Robin Lee Graham, and I have been captivated by the romantic idea of circumnavigating ever since. While I realize I may never achieve this poetic dream and I may not have a realistic perspective on such a vast and challenging undertaking, how can I best start the journey toward possible realization at some point in the future?", that would be realistic and sane.

Instead, some retard who went for an afternoon sail with his brother-in-law on a lake yesterday, decides he loves sailing and writes how he now wants to cash in his retirement, abandon his family, and circumnavigate next week as soon as he finds the right $10K boat. Plus, would we tell him the right kind of cereal to pack for the trip?

Kayaking class V rapids would not be the appropriate analogy. Instead, it would be the equivalent to announce one's intention to paddle over Niagara falls next week, as soon as someone tells him the right canoe for the trip. (And there are plenty who will suggest different possible canoes.)

The threads do not reveal a dream, they reveal an ignorant nightmare disguised as a fantasy seeking assistance or approval.

If one is really concerned about the future of sailing, given that it is a dying activity/sport/hobby, perhaps encouraging novices to enter with a realistic approach might best ensure the continuance of sailing.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm kind of with James on this one.

We can encourage the growth of sailing, without encouraging careless, irresponsible behavior.

In case you folks haven't been paying attention, we have been reaping the unfortunate harvest of these clueless people in the form of many unnecessary abandonments and rescues in the past couple of years. The problem has been greatly exacerbated by the media hyping up these incidents to the non-sailing public.

I reiterate to you, that if we do not police ourselves, the legislature and law enforcement, will gladly step in and police us with more laws, taxes, inspections, certifications and regulations in the name of "protecting us from ourselves".

I've been sailing for 4 years now. I read about it voraciously. I pester world cruisers with questions via email and face-to-face meetings. I'm racing everything I can get my hands on, and I STILL tell people that I don't know sh*t about sailing.

Why? Because comparatively speaking, I still don't!

Sailing is like playing piano. You can bang out "chopsticks" in a day, but you'll spend the rest of your life, perfecting the craft.

People in our "instant gratification" society, refuse to accept that, and hurl themselves upon an unforgiving sea, then blame everything and everyone except themselves, when things go pear-shaped.

I'm going to make my first, piddly, little offshore hop this summer, and I'm doing my damnedest not to become a statistic. I'm trying to be responsible.

We should expect others to do the same.


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

I think it's for the same reason that people go to live on tropical islands. They are running from something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yeah like gougin! damn all the gougins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

seriously this thread just got weird


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Recommissioning the boat. Back and forth to Waste Marine. Each time they do not have what I need. Trips to Jamestown distributor and one to Defender as need to get it done before return to work. Seems increasingly obvious break between stuff voyagers, live aboards need v. casual coastal cruisers/daysailors is increasing. Stuff for first group increasingly expensive and hard to find. Increasingly can only get stuff via internet and shipping. PIA. No real chandleries any more.
However, other than that why is bad fewer people cruise? As long as there is enough volume to maintain the fight for harbor access and reasonable supply of yards is this really a bad thing? More room in anchorages. Fewer idiots on the water. 
Recall years ago going through Cape Cod Canal. Big sport fish in front of us. Huge standing waves at exit to Buzzards Bay. Joker was launching his boat ( 50ft+) totally into the air so you could hear the engines race. Fell back and broke both rudders and running gear. Called Army Corp to get him. They said "are you taking water". He said "no". They said we'll call salvage and when your boat runs aground walk up here cause we are going to cite you. He yelled and screamed at them but had to admit he was running way too fast and was unseamanlike in behavior. Point being if there were civil, or economic or even criminal results of significant impact it might curtail the unrealistic dreamers from attempting a circumnavigation allowing for unrestricted rescue due to "acts of God" or unforeseen equipment or physical crew failures.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I have some sympathy for James' curmudgeony perspective, but I think this thread is largely railing against a problem that doesn't exist. Sure, there is the occasional wing nut that posts here with visions of finding a floating Shangri-La, but that's a tiny minority. I've been hanging around these boards for four years now (one less that you James), and I don't perceive any change in character. I could be wrong (not the first time ), but I'd like some evidence.

As for any increase in SAR events due to a rise in ill prepared dreamers venturing forth, you're going to have to show me the data. Has there been rise in rescues? Are these somehow linked to "careless, irresponsible" sailors and cruisers? You can't just make this statement without backing it up with real data. Of course there are incidence of this, but is this really any different than in the past? Perhaps our SAR systems are now better so instead of these people disappearing from the gene pool, they are now rescued ... perhaps. Show me the data!

I agree there is a tendency to turn cruising into a competition, and that irks me. My speculation is that this demonstrates the poverty of our culture which only values things presented in a _business plan_ way. Hence the rise in the "bucket list" approach to living.


Been to Moscow ✓ 
Climbed Kilimanjaro ✓ 
Sailed around the world✓

Learn how to love yourself, and those around you? ... no check yet, _but if I read a few more "Secret" books I'm sure I'll beat you to it_.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

wise wise words mike, good on ya for that

I agree completely (*the business plan way of living*) Ill have to remember that...so right!

being a curmudgeon myself, my wife calls me an ogre(like shreck jajaja) I often snap and whip up a comment based on impulse

but after thinking things over...I just dont see what a lot of guys on here are stating and or insinuating

for me like many many many many sailors too my first dreams of circumnavigating and deep ofshore sailing came from reading dove...

I was very fortunate though to have a grandfather and father with a tradition of sailing, so I grew up on boats, was famously conceived on a swan 50 something in spain(thats what my dad used to tell me jaja) and read book upn book about the deep blue sea, from the roths, to chichester to knox johnston, slocum all the big ones...all the heavy weather sailing tactic books even chapman! he had a library of both written and visual information...so as a young 14 year old when I really got hooked I had a base to start with I already had the fundaments, the love, the passion...

the absurdity for me regarding these threads or not, is both the responses and extremism on BOTH sides of the equation...

those supporting the op for wanting to ask questions and get more info on a forum these days and having at it is cool, but there are also guys on here who just bought a 50footer and have sailed maybe 1 or 2 years giving all sorts of advice and just do it quotes and the sort that detracts from the real important question

those on the naysayer crowd(although in reality they are not naysayers) but very very prudent crowd and take it easy and learn more crowd are in essence right, the thing is how its perceived and posted on here comes off as naysaying, criticising, and belittling those with less experience

I think its very unfortunate...

back when I started cruising I had it told to my face I was going to die a million times, that I was crazy that I was being irresponsible by not going straight to college, that I was a danger to other kids my age by advocating you do something else before going into the system etc..etc...etc...

yet I did it, barely at first but experience grew exponentially all why doing it very very very frugally and barebones with maybe 10% of the equipment so many people nowadays expound on...

there is much to be learned and taught I guess...but its dependant on the person wanting to do these things and not those that have done it

does that make sense?

if wants to he can...up to him, if you happen to have a mentor or old salt that wants to teach you the ropes awesome you will find them along the way but in the end its up to you...

btw I just never understood why so many sailors look to racing as the be all sign of a good sailor...

its different...so dont make cruising into racing, its awful when you see people in anchorages and the like yelling starboard or whatever when your in paradise and getting into fights over some rule that doenst apply to having fun out there!

my 3 cents


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## Kostis (Apr 18, 2014)

I just want to go to Med. Cross the Atlantic and stop there. I am sure other places are great. But i just want to be there on a boat.


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> Actually, if you read the threads, they are not portrayed as "dreams", they are present intentions or plans, to be commenced in the near future, without any knowledge, experience or resources. Therein lies the problem.
> 
> If a novice came on the forum and wrote, "I loved reading "The Dove" by Robin Lee Graham, and I have been captivated by the romantic idea of circumnavigating ever since. While I realize I may never achieve this poetic dream and I may not have a realistic perspective on such a vast and challenging undertaking, how can I best start the journey toward possible realization at some point in the future?", that would be realistic and sane.
> 
> ...


Never mind. It was a waste of my time to comment. I am sure an attitude like yours will attract new people to the sport. I will stick to gear and boats and away from the general topics area. Sorry to notice the difference.

EDIT: "Instead, some retard", maybe this is where I am picking up the tone.


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## Kostis (Apr 18, 2014)

Let me add something to christian's agreement. For me the idea of traveling is to also have sex with the locals. You know. Exotic beauties and all. Whats the point hiding behind an office all your life and then go to Tahiti and see the girls but they refuse to see you? We only live once lets be kinky and fun.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Circumnavigation threads are like the sailor's porn. Admit people, you are drawn to them against your better judgement. Wankers...
(hangs head in shame)


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

MikeOReilly said:


> I have some sympathy for James' curmudgeony perspective, but I think this thread is largely railing against a problem that doesn't exist. Sure, there is the occasional wing nut that posts here with visions of finding a floating Shangri-La, but that's a tiny minority. I've been hanging around these boards for four years now (one less that you James), and I don't perceive any change in character. I could be wrong (not the first time ), but I'd like some evidence.
> 
> As for any increase in SAR events due to a rise in ill prepared dreamers venturing forth, you're going to have to show me the data. Has there been rise in rescues? Are these somehow linked to "careless, irresponsible" sailors and cruisers? You can't just make this statement without backing it up with real data. Of course there are incidence of this, but is this really any different than in the past?


Yes, there most certainly has been an increase in SAR events. I would suggest there has been a substantial increase in bluewater sailors and coastal cruisers, in spite of the decrease in overall keelboat sailing participation. The prevalence of electronic navigation devices, sat phones, marine radios, and rescue beacons have encouraged more, with less experience, to head offshore. If you read many of the rescue threads, its clear some are not well prepared for what awaits them or don't even understand what they should have. No storm sails, no manual backup systems or redundancy, no problem! The substantial increase in rallys and the resulting increase in rescues demonstrates the fact that some sailors are setting forth without the same respect for the sea in the false belief that an organization or a group will provide them with some extra measure of needed safety.

For an anecdotal example, compare the different response to Robin Lee Graham in 1962 setting out in his Lapworth 24 with Rimas M. currently setting out in his San Juan 24, while fundraising for his voyage on Facebook. Read some of the posts there. https://www.facebook.com/rimas.meleshyus
(No disrespect intended to Rimas M. personally, but I question the wisdom of his voyage in that vessel with his level of preparation, or lack thereof.)

Same size boat, one designed more for the seas and the other for racing. The Dove's voyage was a big deal, covered by National Geographic in a series of articles, due to both his young age, and the very idea of circumnavigating solo. Robin Lee Graham was a well-prepared, experienced, albeit young, bluewater sailor. People on Facebook are now funding Rimas M. in an undertaking that is clearly regarded differently today than it was 50 years ago.

Now, circumnavigating no longer commands the same attention, fear and respect. People know about it, and it's apparently no big deal, other than the time element. It has been done a multitude of times in a multitude of different crafts. So much so, that we now have people considering it who have no idea what they are doing. And they find approval and encouragement here, instead of critical thinking and prudent advice.

It is the boat that matters, right? If you get the right bluewater boat, any Dude can do it! Go for it! (Just take your ASA 101-106 classes first.)


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

jameswilson29 said:


> Now, circumnavigating no longer commands the same attention, fear and respect. People know about it, and it's apparently no big deal, other than the time element. It has been done a multitude of times in a multitude of different crafts. So much so, that we now have people considering it who have no idea what they are doing. And they find approval and encouragement here, instead of critical thinking and prudent advice.


This, to me, is very presumptuous.

None of us has any idea how other people's plans evolve.

Just because someone comes here and asks how to go about doing a circumnavigation doesn't mean they are about to jump on a boat and rush off on an ill conceived journey.

It all starts somewhere.

If you don't know anything, you ask questions. You learn. You ask more questions. You experiment and try things out and see how it works, and learn more. And ask more questions. Gradually you gain experience and knowledge, you learn from your mistakes, you try something else. Repeat, over and over. Eventually you know enough to sail locally, regionally, maybe internationally, and who knows where it ends.

Each person reading this thread started somewhere, right ? None of us was born knowing how to sail, someone, somewhere, taught us, or we found another way to learn on our own.

That's what I see when I read the circumnavigation threads, it seems like someone is just exploring the idea to see what would be involved in doing something like that, what they would have to learn, etc, I never get the feeling they are about to throw off the dock lines and head out into the Atlantic.

One of the threads that this thread was posted in response to (I assume, maybe not ...) is a thread where someone simply asked how they would train for a circumnavigation. That sounds like a perfectly reasonable question for someone to ask in my opinion.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I agree with both!

I dont understand why asking how to train for a circumnav would invite criticism?

how do you train for a marathon? well

diet, exercise, run 30 minutes in the mornin, 30 in the afternoon, diet again, sleep well drink lots of water, etc...

or should you answer:

oh no, dont do it, this isnt like walking, its dangerous, your life is in threat as those around you too...its not so simple, you need a lifetime of training to do one, its harder than climbing everest! blah blah blah

etc................................................................................

I think the points have been made

even when those of us objectively do ineed try to help, there will always be the complete cynics who just want to argue down the origiinal poster or question

having said that I can find good points made for both here on this thread

if everyone agreed life would be sad

cheers


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

In the case of Rimas, there were several people who threw him a few bucks and publicly regretted it afterwards.

He barely...barely made it to San Francisco, had to be towed in to avoid being flushed out with the tide on his second attempt at entry. Then, he publicly announces that he's departing in 60 days to take his duct-taped vessel around Cape Horn. 

During the winter. Duh.

Several sailors who supported him, and his trip back to San Fran renounced him and said that he should earn his own damned money to fix his boat, after he announced that he was leaving soon for Cape Horn.

I can give you a far more recent comparison of small boats and good vs. bad seamanship: Matt Rutherford, in an Albin Vega and Rimas.

Even Matt was shipping 25 gallons of water per day at the end, due to a badly leaking depth transducer through-hull.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> Yes, there most certainly has been an increase in SAR events. I would suggest there has been a substantial increase in bluewater sailors and coastal cruisers, in spite of the decrease in overall keelboat sailing participation. The prevalence of electronic navigation devices, sat phones, marine radios, and rescue beacons have encouraged more, with less experience, to head offshore. If you read many of the rescue threads, its clear some are not well prepared for what awaits them or don't even understand what they should have.


As I'm sure you would say in court, show me the actual evidence. You may be right, but I want to see the actual data. It must be available.

I don't doubt there is more publicity around SAR events, so we definitely hear about them more than we used to. And I also buy the notion that technology is lowering the bar, making it easier for people to be out there, and also easier for people to be rescued. But if you want to go down that route we can argue about how everything went to hell in a handbag after they started making fibreglass boats, or using dacron sails. There are lots of technological developments that have made things easier. Should we all be so pure as to sail in nothing but wood hulls with square rigs? (And this from a guy who doesn't want to cruise with a fridge )

Technology allows a level of environmental arrogance. It's the story of western "progress." I think it's exhibited in our attitudes towards Nature in general, so I agree with you there. That said, I just don't see this tsunami of ill-prepared wannabes that you seem so worried about, nor do I know of evidence for this big increase in SAR events attached to such people. As I say, show me the evidence!


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

wind_magic said:


> Just because someone comes here and asks how to go about doing a circumnavigation doesn't mean they are about to jump on a boat and rush off on an ill conceived journey.
> 
> It all starts somewhere.
> 
> ...


I have never read an absurd circumnavigation thread where the OP is asking whether the voyage is wise. Instead, they want to know which boat, which radio, which breakfast cereal, which fitness routine.

At some level, they must understand their plan is foolish and ill-conceived, so they never ask, "Is this a good idea with my lack of experience, funds, support, and knowledge?"

We should be the ones asking questions before dispensing approval, like:

How long have you been sailing?

What kind of books have you read in preparation?

How much bluewater experience do you have?

What kind of safety gear do you have? EPIRB/PLB? liferaft?

Have you ever owned a boat before? Repaired the engine, the toilet, the electrical system, the rigging...etc?

Then, for the absurd and ill-conceived posts, the poster should be informed as to the proper preparation for bluewater sailing. Will this discourage some of them? Yes, of course, that would be the point.

By the way, the Hawaiian U.S. Coast Guard unit already had to check on Rimas. So, our tax dollars are hard at work. I am not in favor of legislation. But, we don't have to assume these folks are ready and encourage them in their voyages. Given the questions they ask, I assume they are not well-prepared. Otherwise, they wouldn't be here asking what breakfast cereal is best.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

ok so lets do that(some of us have) instead of ripping them...

btw I beleive the op of the training thread is long gong...as in MIA

probably cause he got the wrath of the internet

both good and bad

peace


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

MikeOReilly said:


> As I'm sure you would say in court, show me the actual evidence. You may be right, but I want to see the actual data. It must be available.


I am not so sure about the existence of SAR data relevant to this particular discussion, involving these specifics:

offshore
recreational
sailboats

The USCG publishes SARS statistics, which I believe includes marine, aviation and PLB, commercial and recreational, offshore and inland, sailboats and powerboats. I would agree, in general, boating is safer and there are fewer overall SARs for the USCG. The general decline in gross numbers, which might simply reflect the improved safety of all vessels, inland boater safety education, and improvements in communications, do not necessarily reflect a specific trend in offshore, recreational sailboats.

(Knowing the government and the impulse to report favorably on an agency's success, I would also assume there have been changes in definitions, response methods and timing, and data gathering that have influenced how many SARs are reported, just as almost every other government statistic has been reworked. e.g. unemployment statistics, GDP, inflation, COLA, etc. We live in a golden age of successful govt.)

My hat is off to the brave members of the USCG SAR, who do a great job for us all.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

It may be easier to post links to the already current information available here and other places to those that want to know more specifics. It seems we recreate the wheel on a whole host of subjects on regular basis.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

aeventyr60 said:


> It may be easier to post links to the already current information available here and other places to those that want to know more specifics. It seems we recreate the wheel on a whole host of subjects on regular basis.


Now if only we could come up with an axle.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

tdw said:


> Now if only we could come up with an axle.


You will need at least one for your trip North. I could send you my spare?


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

"So, when will cruising rallies start going through the Northwest Passage so we can have a better circumnavigation to brag about than other sailors, without having to worry about safety or planning, since cruising with other boats will take care of all that? Also, do you think West Marine might be putting in a few stores up around the Arctic Circle so we can swap out anything that needs replacing? And are there coves up there where we can anchor without lots of loud music blasting?"


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## Švejk (May 7, 2014)

Here's a different perspective.. disclaimer: my brother-in-law owns a sailboat and I had a wonderful time sailing with him this past weekend.

Wealth TV has a great show .. Distant Shores. These folks have sailed all over the place. Once you've caught up on most of the episodes log on to youtube and look at some of the sailing videos. I like the cruising lealea channel. Note how the conditions are usually calm .. maybe boring when they get stuck in the doldrums. I'm pretty sure there are never any storms at sea.  It sure looks awesome from my windowless cubicle and never ending drudgery of deadlines that will fail to be even a distant memory in six months.

Say, why not try sailing? Heck, I've got some money saved up I could get one of these dock queens Florida is famous for and sail it! It doesn't look that hard and I've already Sailing for Dummies twice! What could possibly be wrong with these boats I couldn't fix? Youtube is a wealth of information and if they don't have a video then Google will certainly turn something up on a sailing forum somewhere.... 

Now, allow me to digress for a moment. I have coached every level of youth hockey. Every season without fail I would be approached by a parent who was excited about a hockey scholarship in their 8-10 yr old's future. (No doubt their brother-in-law has the NHL package they enjoy with him on weekends.) I played in the adult league as well. There's nothing quite like watching these 40+ year olds play like the NHL scouts were watching in the stands at 11:45pm... on a Monday night. 

Now, how many of these hockey players will ever make it to the pros? I'll give you a hint .. more of them would successfully circumnavigate the globe enjoying Kashi Sailor Crisps every morning for breakfast.

No one can tell you why someone would post "absurd" threads about such desires but I'm pretty sure that was more of a rhetorical question on your part. I do not discount the fact some OPs will be too stubborn to read the thoughtfully crafted responses about the daunting challenges. Perhaps these are the same guys playing beginner hockey at 11pm and cross-checking their own players. 

In any event there is still value in the discussions. Perhaps not to those who need to hear the message nor those who are annoyed by the posts but certainly to those of us stuck in the cubicle with the red swingline looking forward to the next opportunity to circumnavigate the marina. 

Now, can someone tell me what the hell is a true bluewater boat?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

what true blue water boat is like asking what engine oil is best?

get ready for the fireworks!


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Švejk;1816738 said:


> Here's a different perspective..


Great post, and welcome to SailNet. For your efforts you win this.... 









MedSailor


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Sailing is like playing piano. You can bang out "chopsticks" in a day, but you'll spend the rest of your life, perfecting the craft.


Old joke - A visitor to New York stops a local and asks, "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" The local responds, "practice, practice, practice."

Same for for sailing.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

aeventyr60 said:


> You will need at least one for your trip North. I could send you my spare?


oh pshaw .... next you'll be telling me you have learnt not only how to use two wheels but you have them at both ends of the axle.


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## kzed (Nov 8, 2008)

Digital media has raised awareness of SAR events. Technology has resulted in greatly improved emergency notifications and responses. That does not mean that circumnavigators are a burden to society. 

And people who are just chatting on forums and dreaming about it, we're only wasting a byte or two.... 



jameswilson29 said:


> I am not so sure about the existence of SAR data relevant to this particular discussion, involving these specifics:
> 
> offshore
> recreational
> ...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"but I want to see the actual data. It must be available."
Statistics are not kept of all events. Nor are statistics gathered, centralized, or standardized for all events. That applies to SAR, cellphone robberies, and drunks breaking their toes against toilets in the middle of the night, pretty much equally. (Really, ask at any hospital ER. Indoor plumbing and alcohol are a really dangerous mix!)

Consider if you will, the "simple" concept of examining USCG statistics for SAR missions. Ooops, that's already going to be a bad count, since there are National Guard SAR units on both coasts--such as the one that rescued Rebel Heart recently. That's not a USCG operation, that's a military SAR mission. Odds are, it wouldn't be part of the same statistics.

Little things like that (and how many of us even knew the US military had separate SAR operations on both coasts? Not to mention, various state police, harbor patrols, and other agencies?) tend to make statistics very misleading, unless someone has taken great care to standardize and centralize the data. Or, someone takes even greater care trying to compile it.

Then there are incidents like the seasick crew that got on a satphone and called in a USCG SAR--without the sailboat's owner/skipper even knowing about it. Is that a SAR? When the captain of the vessel is unaware of the call?

Someone might have the stats. You could try USSA and the USCG for leads, but you may have to roll up your sleeves. And then...well, would the Mexican Navy be operating off Baja? And the Bahamian Defense Force (let's not forget, the Cubans have also made rescues) on the other coast?

Roll up your sleeves, there's probably a magazine article to be written once you get done.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

I have not seen even one. Guess I cant answer the question.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> "but I want to see the actual data. It must be available."


HS, my point in asking for the data is that James is/was making some assertions regarding the apparent increase in boaters getting into trouble, most specifically those who are ill-prepared to be out there. If you're going to make these claims then some basic data would be useful.

Even if all the data is not available from all possible sources, surely some sort of statistical support for this claim is required. How about just looking at just one source: USCG, for example. Some evidence ... any evidence, would be useful.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

So, I spent about 5 minutes doing the most basic of searches using DuckDuckGo (my preferred general search tool). I easily came up with a whole database of USCG Accident Statistics (a fascinating tool), and more broader stats from COSPAS-SARSAT:









From the global stats you can see a general rise in alerts that COSPAS-SARSAT assisted with, although a rather stable level of alerts where COSPAS-SARSAT was the only responder. I can't interpret this without further analysis, but on the surface this could support James' top-level assertion.

I'm not looking to write an article on all this (although perhaps I should ). If I was then I would take the time to do the analysis. But my very cursory search suggests the data IS available.

I guess my real point is it kinda drives me nuts when unsupported assertions are made about things when data is available, and can actually answer the question. We don't have to guess, to rely on our small anecdotal experiences, or to rely on our gut. For these kinds of question, the answers are available if we take the time to look.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> "but I want to see the actual data. It must be available."
> Statistics are not kept of all events. Nor are statistics gathered, centralized, or standardized for all events. That applies to SAR, cellphone robberies, and drunks breaking their toes against toilets in the middle of the night, pretty much equally. (Really, ask at any hospital ER. Indoor plumbing and alcohol are a really dangerous mix!)
> 
> Consider if you will, the "simple" concept of examining USCG statistics for SAR missions. Ooops, that's already going to be a bad count, since there are National Guard SAR units on both coasts--such as the one that rescued Rebel Heart recently. That's not a USCG operation, that's a military SAR mission. Odds are, it wouldn't be part of the same statistics.
> ...


That's a very good analysis...

I think anyone who doesn't feel there has been an uptick in the frequency of abandonments sailing yachts in the last year or two is either in some sort of denial, or simply hasn't been paying attention  It's not that we simply hear about more of these incidents today due to the internet or social media, in my opinion. Now, whether the recent spate of such incidents represents a trend that will continue to rise, or simply a statistical anomaly of the past 2 years, remains to be seen... But, I challenge anyone to point to another time frame where we've seen the frequency of abandonments we've seen in recent memory...

Here's just some of what comes to my mind, I'm sure I'm forgetting some:

2 boats lost in last fall's SDR Rally, of course

The Swan 46 WOLFHOUND near Bermuda

The Canadian CS 36 abandoned after losing a rudder a few days out of the Cape Verdes...

REBEL HEART

Doug Sabbag's TRIUMPH

The Alpha 42 BE GOOD TOO in January

A trimaran off the Texas coast a couple of months ago

That Hunter found abandoned in the Gulf Coast, the YouTube video posted here

The Pearson 323 abandoned enroute to Bermuda and Europe last spring, that eventually fetched up on the beach on Martha's Vineyard

The 32' Aloha abandoned off the Florida Keys this winter, eventually grounded on Singer Island

The 50' Beneteau BLUE PEARL, abandoned after sinking NE of Bermuda 2 weeks ago

3 European sailors rescued near Sable Island last September on passage to the Azores

An AMVER rescue last November after the abandonment of the junk-rigged schooner EASY GO, which departed Nova Scotia bound for the Caribbean

Pretty certain there was at least one abandonment off Oregon/N Calif last fall/winter, can't recall the specifics

Those Polish morons rescued mid-Atlantic attempting to sail from Europe to N America in January 2013, if memory serves

These are just the ones I recall at the moment, given more time I have little doubt I, or others, could add to the list...

Sorry, anyone who thinks these purely 'anecdotal' numbers were being matched 5 or 10 years ago by sailors going to sea for pleasure, then punching out, is dreaming...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

there is a word for it but its not politically correct but basically its the push button masses that go cruising now and any little thing that goes bad, like a bad HAIR DAY is considered rescueable

and distress...

to blame in part is all the new technology that makes it so easy now for people to "follow" you, text while at sea...and basically have internet, tv basically everything you have home out there, *now *you arent really out there anyways

you are just a call away from help or whatever

the spike is due to this

NOT boat design, not materials, not the weather, global waming, whatever

its cruisers views now on what constitutes an abandon boat scenario that has changed

not in 100 percent of cases but damn high up there


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> I think anyone who doesn't feel there has been an uptick in the frequency of abandonments sailing yachts in the last year or two is either in some sort of denial, or simply hasn't been paying attention  It's not that we simply hear about more of these incidents today due to the internet or social media,* in my opinion*.


I hope you're not referring to my post Jon, implying that I'm denying anything. I'm not saying you're incorrect, I'm just saying the information IS available if someone is willing to look. Instead of giving me anecdote and opinion, and then opining on what your gut says, why not just do the work to look at the info.

As I said, I spent all of 5 minutes and found some decent sources that might reveal whether your observations are correct. Or they may suggest something else. I don't know. Your observations, as a long-time cruiser, are good, but I would rather use actual data -- which IS available if you care to spend the time to look.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> to blame in part is all the new technology that makes it so easy now for people to "follow" you, text while at sea...and basically have internet, tv basically everything you have home out there, *now *you arent really out there anyways


This is what my gut tells me as well . But I've learned that sometimes my gut is wrong . This feels a bit like the old folks complaining about "_these kids today..._". Invariably these kinds of biased observations are incorrect, or at the very least only give a partial picture.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

I dream of sailing the world.

I dream of sailing around.

I dream of sailing.

But not around the world. 

I think novices read and see romanticized accounts of sailing around the world and because they know so little of sailing and it's broad history...they choose that vision as their dream.

Whereas if they knew about Dylan Winter and his ktl enterprise or Vega Lealea dawdling about in the PNW/Hawaii/Alaska (e.g.) ...which in my view are great examples of how to sail...sail around...and sail the world...many might choose a much more reasonable approach to the sailing lifestyle.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

tdw said:


> oh pshaw .... next you'll be telling me you have learnt not only how to use two wheels but you have them at both ends of the axle.


Nope, the wheels fell of my trolley a long time ago. Just need to get rid of the axles.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> That's a very good analysis...
> 
> I think anyone who doesn't feel there has been an uptick in the frequency of abandonments sailing yachts in the last year or two is either in some sort of denial, or simply hasn't been paying attention  It's not that we simply hear about more of these incidents today due to the internet or social media, in my opinion. Now, whether the recent spate of such incidents represents a trend that will continue to rise, or simply a statistical anomaly of the past 2 years, remains to be seen... But, I challenge anyone to point to another time frame where we've seen the frequency of abandonments we've seen in recent memory...
> 
> ...


Guess those East coast sailors might need to go back to school....


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
> > I think anyone who doesn't feel there has been an uptick in the frequency of abandonments sailing yachts in the last year or two is either in some sort of denial, or simply hasn't been paying attention  It's not that we simply hear about more of these incidents today due to the internet or social media, in my opinion.
> 
> 
> ...


Tell you what, why don't _YOU_ provide the "data" that casts doubt upon my _OPINION_ that the recent spate of abandonments/offshore rescues over the past 2-3 years that I've cited above _SEEMS_ unprecedented... 

The "News Feeds" archives of Sailnet currently go back to 2006. Virtually any boating mishap worthy of note seems to make it into the News Feed section, so that might be as good a place as any to begin one's search... If there have been equal or greater numbers of such incidents over a similar time frame during the past 8 years, they should be chronicled among those 1,900 pages and 15,000 entries in the News Feed archives, no?

Anyone who "cares to spend the time to look", they should have at it...


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Tell you what, why don't _YOU_ provide the "data" that casts doubt upon my _OPINION_ that the recent spate of abandonments/offshore rescues over the past 2-3 years that I've cited above _SEEMS_ unprecedented...
> 
> The "News Feeds" archives of Sailnet currently go back to 2006. Virtually any boating mishap worthy of note seems to make it into the News Feed section, so that might be as good a place as any to begin one's search... If there have been equal or greater numbers of such incidents over a similar time frame during the past 8 years, they should be chronicled among those 1,900 pages and 15,000 entries in the News Feed archives, no?
> 
> Anyone who "cares to spend the time to look", they should have at it...


Since you are the one making the claim, it would seem the burden is on you. I don't really care. I'm simply being skeptical regarding your claim in absence of actual data. It may be true, but it may not. I don't know, but the answer is available if you care to look.

Recall, this thread began with a claim that there is an increase in SAR events connected to an increasingly ill-prepared group of cruisers. No evidence presented. Just based on anecdote. I might still not care enough to respond, despite the lack of credible evidence, but attached to this was a fairly clear moral judgement as to character of these people. At this point I think it is incumbent on all reasonable people to stand up and ask for at least some level of evidence.

I don't understand why anyone would be antagonistic to such a request. I spent a few minutes and found some useful data. This suggests the information is available. If you're going to question the character of others based on an apparent factual claim shouldn't you spend at least a few minutes supporting that claim?

Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## Alibaba (Feb 6, 2010)

vega1860 said:


> Mexico
> Free advice: (Received from a PNW sailor and passed on as true and correct in our opinion) Save Alaska for last.


more free advice..Save Alaska for the summer months, Save mexixo for the winter months.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

What strikes me after 35y of coastal sailing and a couple of dozen of 1k offshore jaunts is how unprepared I am for a circumnavigation The skill set is different. No it can until landfall. No I'll hit the yard/ chandlery and get it fixed/ replaced. All the cutting edge technologies are no help if broken. None replace seamanship or sleep. None keep fear or fatigue at bay. This concept that if I have the best boat withe best stuff in it I'm protected from the vagarities of the ocean creates arrogance and SAR calls.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Mike, I agree with you in general but still say statistics will be deceptive.

For instance,"an uptick in the frequency of abandonments sailing yachts in the last year or two ". OK. How's the weather? Right, in the last 50 years there have been major increases in the range and strength of tornados and extreme weather in the US alone. Tornados were "once in a hundred year" events in many places like New England, now they are routine in storm season. So, do we filter out vessels in distress by the number of extreme weather days at sea, as well? 

Or perhaps, how's the economy been? If the last crash is past and folks are spending money again, and boating in general is up...maybe the uptick in rescues just reflects more boaters on the water? Caused by any number of factors?

Of course it could be another mental health system failure, letting all the crazies loose on the streets and eventually the docks. And that's not entirely implausible. Or it could be related to cell phones and the internet. I recall very clearly the first time I watched a live webcam feed from the SOUTH POLE and said to myself, holy **it, the south pole and the top of Everest, the world really has become a different place. Maybe folks just have lost their fear of "here be dragons" as the dragons are now, well, all on the web too?

Or maybe the Nooze are just finding out this is good drama, it sells commercial time better than worrying folks over that Putin fellow and WW3, or all the genocides that keep happening.

Statistics. Drama. Bottom line, what difference does it make? So more people are talking or doing or (ooops) failing at circumnavigation. When I was a kid, you could DREAM about going to Mt. Everest. But wtf would have had the nightmare of being stuck in a climbers' traffic jam way the hell out there?!

Different world every day, every year. Unicorns, purple dinosaurs, sailing away to Shangri-La (and the canal system through those mountains is amazing(G) ) who knows.

Statistics? File under stamp collecting and bonsai gardening, interesting hobby but of limited practical purpose, unless you really really get the details straight. Which is a process we are generally clueless about. Even, and especially, on The Nooze.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> Mike, I agree with you in general but still say statistics will be deceptive.


Oh I fully agree HS, data of any kind does not necessarily provide information. Context, limitations of collection, bias ... all this and much more must be considered. But at least it's a start. It's usually better than individual anecdotal evidence (which IS also useful data).

I guess the reason I'm hanging onto this like a dog with a bone is that the OP's initial posting, and Jon's apparent defence of it (if that's what he was doing), is reaching some rather damning conclusions using pretty scant data. Anecdote, feelings, and a very small list of events over a very short period tells us almost nothing. As a first simple step I think one needs to show that there actually is an increase in SAR events; that it's not just a blip. This information is available.

_If_ there is an increase, then ascribing cause by blaming it on ill-prepared, push-botton sailors is, as I think you're pointing out, a really big stretch. It may be the case, but if you're going to fling blame around then try and support it with something other than your gut feeling.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Well, Since I've been stuck at my desk grading final exams. As a distraction, I've been been trying to find any relevant data, since I'm curious as well.

Total SAR missions are reported and those numbers appear to show a downward trend.

http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/BMW 2011_files/USCG Report for 2011 BMW_Turner.pdf

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg534/SARfactsInfo/SAR Sum Stats 64-13.pdf

But as James points out, there's no break-down by vessel or region eg: Recreation, sailboat, east coast

I haven't been able to locate the underlying data just the summary sheets.

The USCG puts out a detailed annual report for all " reported" accidents ( by state) but it's not much help here either.

It certainly seems like there is an uptick of sailboat incidents but digging the data out would probably take serious research if it's even accessible.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Or better reporting of them.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Where do you see that sentiment turned against the Russian that sailed on the San Juan 24? I read the end of the main thread and it just said he was towed in. Where can I find out about him announcing his next plans and people regretting helping him?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Tempest said:


> Well, Since I've been stuck at my desk grading final exams. As a distraction, I've been been trying to find any relevant data, since I'm curious as well.
> 
> Total SAR missions are reported and those numbers appear to show a downward trend.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tempest. Just scanning the Summary Statistics, it indicates the number of Cases (whatever that means) peaked in the late 1970s and has been on a steady decline ever since. Using this data one could suggest boaters are getting increasingly safer, especially given the massive increase in boat numbers. Perhaps boaters today are far better seamen than in days gone by. Or perhaps the technology I often disdain IS making boating safer.

A scan through the USCG accident statistics shows a roughly stable number of incidents for "axillary sailboat" from 2005 to 2012. Once again, this apparent rise in SAR events connected to ill-prepared cruisers does not appear to be showing up in the data.

This is far from conclusive. This data is not very focused. The phenomena James and Jon point to could still exist. However, the evidence presented here does not support their conclusion.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Mike, 

I don't think that the CG accident data can be tied to the kind of SAR missions being discussed here. I believe their accident data is derived from " reported" accidents that involve damages ( generally over $2,000.) and or deaths. I don't think A vessel towed in from sea or abandoned would appear in that data ( I could be wrong). 

I also think the "ticking up" that we're discussing is still a such a small, discreet number relative to the total number of recreational boats that it's probably not going to show up in summary reports. Is it 15 rescues vs 10? 30 vs 15? etc Anecdotal, might be the best we get. I do tend to agree with Jon, that it sure seems like the numbers have ticked up.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> Oh I fully agree HS, data of any kind does not necessarily provide information. Context, limitations of collection, bias ... all this and much more must be considered. But at least it's a start. It's usually better than individual anecdotal evidence (which IS also useful data).
> 
> I guess the reason I'm hanging onto this like a dog with a bone is that the OP's initial posting, and Jon's apparent defence of it (if that's what he was doing), is reaching some rather damning conclusions using pretty scant data. Anecdote, feelings, and a very small list of events over a very short period tells us almost nothing. As a first simple step I think one needs to show that there actually is an increase in SAR events; that it's not just a blip. This information is available.


This is pretty funny... Not so so long ago, when I was butting heads with Smackdaddy in the "Rallies Gone Wrong" thread, seems I was pretty much the only one who bothered to research the actual experience level of the skippers who got into trouble, and actually _DEFENDED_ them against the implication that inexperience likely contributed to the problems they encountered during the SDR:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1358329-post642.html

And now in this thread, after being pretty much the only one who has offered any factual support of my _OPINION_ that we've recently seen a spike in offshore abandonments/rescues, my litany of over a dozen such incidents in recent memory is dismissed as being merely "anecdotal", and it is suggested that I need to dredge up additional "data" before my opinion can be legitimized... 



MikeOReilly said:


> _If_ there is an increase, then ascribing cause by blaming it on ill-prepared, push-botton sailors is, as I think you're pointing out, a really big stretch. It may be the case, but if you're going to fling blame around then try and support it with something other than your gut feeling.


OK, so if I were to select a single incident of the dozen or more I cited that was likely due to poor preparation/inexperience, it would be tha abandonment of the Pearson 362 RUNNING FREE that eventually came ashore on Marthas' Vineyard... Reading the guy's blog, it was apparent he was a total newb. For instance, he had tried anchoring the boat only ONCE before setting out across the Atlantic, where he eventually flagged down an AMVER ride 4 or 5 days into the trip...

Now, with what available "data" am I supposed to support my opinion? How does one _quantify_ the impression he had no business being out there to begin with, and that his punching out during his first encounter with 30+ knot winds was probably largely attributable to poor preparation and lack of experience?

Sorry, but I'm going with what my eyes and ears have told me over 35 years of running boats up and down the East coast.... During the past few years, these sort of incidents HAVE happened with greater frequency than before... And, I'm not alone in believing this. I know for a fact, for instance, that one person in a good position to have reached an informed opinion - CRUISING WORLD'S Herb McCormick - would agree...

Don Street, of course, has been beating this drum for years... Then again, what would a guy who's been in the yacht insurance business for close to half a century possibly know about the casualty rates among offshore sailors today? How could his opinion possibly be validated by any sort of "Data"?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I agree with you jon...for what its worth I posted that its the new sailors these days and push button crowd that have totally different notions of what sailing and cruising and offshore sailing is

you can see the comments for example regarding epirbs and messengers and tracking devices etc today versus say 10-15 years ago

its amazing how much has changed

before more emphasis was put on the sailor...now more emphasis is put on the gear, and equipment and buttons needed for "safe" cruising

id venture 99 percent of cruisers TODAY are confident that they will be rescued no matter what...so more newbs go sailing and more people that dont respect the sea as they should do go...because they know they will be rescued no matter what no matter where

think about it...

like everest NOW its a sad sad sight to see the absolute never ending line of yuppies and wannabe explorers that climb cause all they need to do is sign a waiver and send over the money...cause they know they will be more easily rescued than say 30 years ago or when sir hillary did it way back when...

this is just me but I BET there will be a day when solo circumnaving the globe(even non stop) will become so easy that many many people will do it, either cause the technology makes it so easy, or you are within minues of a rescue chopper plucking you out or some pods out in the middle of the ocean like small planets out in the galaxy will be ready to open their doors for the quick adventure sailor heading out, an easy save...if you will.

its just a matter of time


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> And now in this thread, after being pretty much the only one who has offered any factual support of my _OPINION_ that we've recently seen a spike in offshore abandonments/rescues, my litany of over a dozen such incidents in recent memory is dismissed as being merely "anecdotal", and it is suggested that I need to dredge up additional "data" before my opinion can be legitimized...


Not everything of value must be statistical in nature. There is a place for qualitative analysis.

We can certainly use statistics to describe the preparation of a boat to go to see with lists of equipment and even services. How to meaningfully apply statistics to the readiness of skipper and crew?

I suggest that Jon's experience makes his _analysis_ of particular events credible.

His perception that offshore SAR events and boat abandonments have increased in recent years could certainly be supported with data-based conclusions. Based on data presented at the most recent meeting of the USCG GMDSS Task Force on which I sit (minutes aren't available yet) it appears that a lot of data is collected in a form that requires manual assessment to draw meaningful conclusions. Getting the raw data might require a FOIA request for the USCG administration to justify the collation expense.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> Not everything of value must be statistical in nature. There is a place for qualitative analysis.
> 
> We can certainly use statistics to describe the preparation of a boat to go to see with lists of equipment and even services. How to meaningfully apply statistics to the readiness of skipper and crew?
> 
> I suggest that Jon's experience makes his _analysis_ of particular events credible.


I guess I'm not communicating very clearly. *I have never said* Jon's experience is invalid, not have I ever said statistical data is the only way to know something. It is well known that human perception and individual observation is usually quite biased. That doesn't mean it's invalid, but we've learned to be skeptical of this kinds of data, which is why science insists on verifiable data. Good gualitative analysis has the same standards.

BTW, being skeptical, and pointing out that this is anecdotal evidence, is not an insult, as you seem to take it Jon. It doesn't invalidate your observations. But unless you're stepping into deity status and claiming infallibility, surely even you would agree that it is worth asking for more supporting evidence (and once again, this is NOT an insult).

I really don't understand why it is such a radical position; to ask for evidence beyond anecdotal data. I feel like we're speaking two different languages. I'm not denigrating anyone. I'm simply asking for further evidence, especially when people are making causal connections to this apparent trend (with a healthy bit of moralizing thrown in, just for good measure).


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

good points mike! as usual


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## khammett (Sep 20, 2013)

If Robin Lee Graham could sail around the world, "anyone" can!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Mike-
Did you note the "Notes" on the bottom of the USCG pages that Tempest found? Those figures include cruise ship disasters, aircraft disasters, and there's a side reference to Katrina operations as well. Even with the notes...interesting to see the # lives lost before/after notification seems to have gone through a huge reverse as well.

And while we're at it...factor in the number of boaters on the water as a whole, or the 10% of sailors who sail in boats over 24'OAL, and the sales of cheap EPIRBS, which were "cheap" at $800 but now are really cheap at $300, so quite possibly the percentage of boaters who _have _a button to push, has gone up as well?

Quite a lot to explore, isn't there?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> Mike-
> Did you note the "Notes" on the bottom of the USCG pages that Tempest found? Those figures include cruise ship disasters, aircraft disasters, and there's a side reference to Katrina operations as well. Even with the notes...interesting to see the # lives lost before/after notification seems to have gone through a huge reverse as well.
> 
> And while we're at it...factor in the number of boaters on the water as a whole, or the 10% of sailors who sail in boats over 24'OAL, and the sales of cheap EPIRBS, which were "cheap" at $800 but now are really cheap at $300, so quite possibly the percentage of boaters who _have _a button to push, has gone up as well?
> ...


Agreed HS. There's a lot of complexity in this question, which is really all I'm saying.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Why would it matter to you if there are more or less SAR events? Maybe a more compelling story is those who have battled the odds, conducted repairs while underway and returned safely to port.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

BINGO MAN!

thats why reading about people who have done it and their plan b, c and d ad nauseum contingency plans and how they came out on top in the end is much more important than bashing those that "failed"

much to learn out there and many tips and tricks that help you if you pay attention to the info...


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## oborseth (Oct 6, 2013)

northoceanbeach said:


> Where do you see that sentiment turned against the Russian that sailed on the San Juan 24? I read the end of the main thread and it just said he was towed in. Where can I find out about him announcing his next plans and people regretting helping him?


https://www.facebook.com/rimas.meleshyus

I've read from people that have met him that he's literally crazy. Apparently he still plans on trying to sail around the world in that thing. It is getting quite the rebuild though.


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

Crazy, who diagnosed, as what, when, and how. That is a word that can destroy a mans future. Dislexic, Aspi, and all sorts of conceptual and data formatting variables in the human mind.
Sorry Aspi here and I have taken lots of flack for it.


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## Kielanders (Dec 8, 2011)

Everybody loves to quote Darwin, but everyone tries to discourage the activities in our lives that those noble souls among us would do to demonstrate his particular genius.

Can't please anybody it seems - bunch of girls on this site, or what?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> I guess I'm not communicating very clearly. *I have never said* Jon's experience is invalid, not have I ever said statistical data is the only way to know something. It is well known that human perception and individual observation is usually quite biased. That doesn't mean it's invalid, but we've learned to be skeptical of this kinds of data, which is why science insists on verifiable data. Good gualitative analysis has the same standards.
> 
> BTW, being skeptical, and pointing out that this is anecdotal evidence, is not an insult, as you seem to take it Jon. It doesn't invalidate your observations. But unless you're stepping into deity status and claiming infallibility, surely even you would agree that it is worth asking for more supporting evidence (and once again, this is NOT an insult).
> 
> I really don't understand why it is such a radical position; to ask for evidence beyond anecdotal data. I feel like we're speaking two different languages. I'm not denigrating anyone. I'm simply asking for further evidence, especially when people are making causal connections to this apparent trend (with a healthy bit of moralizing thrown in, just for good measure).


I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I have no objection to looking for "data" to support a view, I've done so myself. This is certainly not the first thread where this discussion has taken place, we've been down this road before. And yet, no one has EVER yet to produce any data, or table of statistics/trends, that has been broken down by category to isolate _Recreational Sailboats Abandoned or Rescued Offshore_... That's what were talking about, after all, and until someone comes up with the numbers that apply to that specific subset, the sort of generic data like that you posted in #178 tells us _NOTHING_ about the subject at hand... Annual CG Accident reports which might lump together a woman lost in the NARC rally in the same list with a sailor who perished after a daysailor capsized on a reservoir in South Dakota are essentially worthless when it comes to our attempts to further understand what's happening with cruising boats being abandoned in the North Atlantic, for example 

In recent years, seems the biggest game-changer might be the success and expansion of the AMVER program. It's somewhat striking how many rescues that occur beyond the normal operating ranged of the CG are now being carried out by merchant vessels, or being recorded and posted on YouTube by cruise ship passengers. I have little doubt that AMVER has made it a bit 'easier' for sailors to take the decision to punch out, so that might be one place for someone to start looking for data... At the same time, the CG is now simply 'coordinating' some of these rescues, instead of carrying them out themselves. The rescue of BE GOOD TOO back in January, for instance, was at first planned to have been an AMVER evacuation, until the CG became concerned about the weather, and decided to do it themselves... It would be interesting to learn, for example, how such a distinction might have been recorded/reported differently in whatever database it would have been entered...

But, as I've said, the Sailnet News Feed archives go back to 2006... And I would encourage anyone who thinks that my opinion is in error, and that there is likely to have been a similar or greater number of offshore rescues than the dozen I've cited above, over a similar previous time frame, they're certainly welcome to begin combing through that extensive, albeit"anecdotal", compilation of incidents...


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## Steady Hand (Jun 11, 2014)

AlaskaMC said:


> Great point and thanks for making it a positive one that encourages new folks in a positive way.
> 
> And why are there not more threads with this as the general tone. Frankly, I am into many many sports and the associated forums that go with them. I find an interesting correlation.
> 
> There are threads like this constantly on here disparaging other peoples dreams. And, sailing is possibly a dying sport. Sad on both counts. When a new kayaker comes onto a site about whitewater and asks about class V, they aren't berated as delusional freaks. The online tone of sailing is very negative compared to other "dangerous" sports. Just some food for thought.


I write this as a new member here who has read many posts in many threads. I am writing in a friendly tone. 

I am not as experienced as some here, so take these comments with a splash of salt water, but I have seen enough of the dangers of the sea and sailing to respect the sea and to be aware that it is unforgiving of mistakes. It happens.

I also think having dreams is great and dreams can lead people to unusual and great accomplishments. Everyone needs to have dreams and the chance to fulfill some of them.

You mention the other sports that may be dangerous and yet their forums may not be so discouraging to the dreamers. Perhaps one reason is that many other "dangerous" sports usually involve risk to an individual, and that one person risks their own safety or life, without risking the lives of others at the same time. On the other hand so many of the people who want to sail around the world are taking others with them, whether they be a spouse, children, or friends who may be even less experienced or prepared.

Put another way, if a novice wants to base jump or sky dive or surf or solo climb mountains or swim the English Channel, they are not as likely to kill someone else other than themselves compared to a novice sailor taking a spouse and kids (or others) around the world on unseaworthy boat or any boat in which THEY are the least seaworthy (unprepared or capable) element.

So I can understand that more experienced sailors may be either critical or urge caution (and gaining more experience) before some novice takes off on a offshore adventure or circ.

As I see it, being the skipper of a boat carries a responsibility, to the safety of the boats crew and the boat.


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## tgzzzz (Sep 7, 2005)

Steady Hand said:


> ... On the other hand so many of the people who want to sail around the world are taking others with them, whether they be a spouse, children, or friends who may be even less experienced or prepared... As I see it, being the skipper of a boat carries a responsibility, to the safety of the boats crew and the boat.


This is my issue with the truly absurd # of circ threads. Plus all the posturing and strutting. The buying of a serious boat or the endless discussion of what makes a real boat. How much plug and play redundancy equals safety? If I buy a cat, I can have a washer-dryer. Got to keep Momma happy! One diesel genny or two?

And as we all know, when SHTF, or even when it's "merely" uncomfortable the Big Red Button gets pushed. Think of the discussions onboard prior to the button getting pushed. I wouldn't want to hear that stuff. (And I don't want to read about it after the fact.)

Would-be circumnavigators:

Should have their mouths taped shut, and typing fingers taped together.

Required to read the great books of sailing around the world.

Then forced to watch the many YouTube vids of extreme weather.

Then give truth serum to all crew members to ascertain whose dream it really is. I think it is just sooooo wrong to put someone else in that tough a spot.

Folks who still want to go should have at it without further ado. No more EPIRBS/Sat phones and ENDLESS chit chat about keeping eggs in vaseline and separating potatoes from onions; they'd have read all that stuff.

To you very few boys left: Go Men Go! There won't be many women in this small remaining group and those that do remain won't be fretting the washer/dryer. You Go Girls.

I stand ready to buy a legitimate copy of successful voyagers' books. I prefer to stand on the shoulders of giants rather than sailing forum trolls.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Steady Hand said:


> ...
> So I can understand that more experienced sailors may be either critical or urge caution (and gaining more experience) before some novice takes off on a offshore adventure or circ.


I agree but being critical and urging caution is one thing. Those who are downright rude, mean and obnoxious with it are just not helping anyone other than to pinpoint themselves as rude, mean, obnoxious and taking up server space.

If you don't want to read about someone else's dreams: go away. Skip the thread. No one is forcing you to sit in front of your computer and pay attention.

People come here to ask questions and learn. Until they learn they have no idea what they don't know. Most of the forum members are willing to help and not belittle or denigrate. Kudos to them.



Steady Hand said:


> As I see it, being the skipper of a boat carries a responsibility, to the safety of the boats crew and the boat.


Yep. The law sees it that way, too.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Steady Hand said:


> I write this as a new member here who has read many posts in many threads. I am writing in a friendly tone.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> ...


Actually, I found out that the climbing community does catch flak when people get lost or injured and need to be plucked off of mountain tops in expensive, helicopter rescues that generate a lot of media attention.

The climbing community is spreading the word that they had better clean up their act, leave no trace and get self-sufficient, or they are going to find themselves heavily regulated, and cut off from prime climbing opportunities.

The sailing community is NOT getting this message out very well.

There's more to being self sufficient than simply carrying enough spare parts to build another boat. It requires tenacity and creativity.

Think of Apollo 13, when the astronauts were forced to adapt CO2 scrubber modules from the LEM to the prime capsule, using nothing but duct tape and covers torn from tech manuals stored onboard.

You would be stunned at how rudimentary the flooding damage control kits onboard modern nuclear submarines are- Wooden wedges and cones, lead sheeting, hemp rope, and "strong backs" made from cut sections of steel pipe, lined with rubber, and a hacksaw.

Why so crude? Because it is simply impossible to anticipate the millions of variables that will come into play to cause a flooding casualty on a submarine. You can't possibly develop enough specialty tools and materials for everything that could go wrong.

We were trained to use our imagination and our creativity to use these crude supplies to keep the water out of the pressure hull. Above all, no one is coming to save you, so you'd better not give up or you're going to die.

Too many people are setting out with misplaced priorities (electronic toys vs. essential maintenance). Too many people are setting out with the "911" mentality, and not enough desire to save the ship, save themselves. Not enough people are asking themselves hard questions. Tgzzz is damned right, that not enough couples are honest with themselves about who REALLY wants to go ocean cruising.

The phrase "perception is reality" comes to mind.

It doesn't matter if boating deaths are dropping, or if we're safer overall. As long as we continue to draw media attention to ourselves by prematurely ejecting ourselves from our vessels, the non-sailing public (and legislators) will utter nonsensical statements like "they had no business being out there", and we will find our freedom to sail greatly restricted.

The freedom to step onto our vessels and go anywhere we damn well please, is one of the last, true freedoms remaining to us here in the U.S. We'd better protect that freedom by taking better care of ourselves out there.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

tgzzzz said:


> This is my issue with the truly absurd # of circ threads. Plus all the posturing and strutting. The buying of a serious boat or the endless discussion of what makes a real boat. How much plug and play redundancy equals safety? If I buy a cat, I can have a washer-dryer. Got to keep Momma happy! One diesel genny or two?
> 
> And as we all know, when SHTF, or even when it's "merely" uncomfortable the Big Red Button gets pushed. Think of the discussions onboard prior to the button getting pushed. I wouldn't want to hear that stuff. (And I don't want to read about it after the fact.)


tgzzzz,

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but if what you say above is true, aren't you in the wrong place?

MedSailor


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## tgzzzz (Sep 7, 2005)

Yeah Med, and Donna. I know, I know. Crazy is tilting at windmills when ya know what they are. I keep poking around for a default forum of smart experienced boaters. Doers not dreamers. Sailing 201. Egos checked at the door. Bleeding hearts not allowed.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

that doesnt exist! jajajaja

no offense to anyone...


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

tgzzzz said:


> Yeah Med, and Donna. I know, I know. Crazy is tilting at windmills when ya know what they are. I keep poking around for a default forum of smart experienced boaters. Doers not dreamers. Sailing 201. Egos checked at the door. Bleeding hearts not allowed.


Despair not, what you seek may yet exist. The SSCA Forum is the closest thing I've seen to what you describe. It's a low traffic forum, probably because the people are out on their long trips. Of course if you post to the forum of masters, then you risk becoming "that guy" asking the silly questions no?

http://forum.ssca.org/

Personally I like SailNet best of all the forums, warts and all. As for the inexperienced ones, perhaps it's because I remember just how green I was (not that long ago) that I enjoy feeding them. 

MedSailor


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## stoomy (Jul 8, 2008)

tgzzzz said:


> Doers not dreamers. Sailing 201.


Dreaming is a prerequisite to doing


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

ssca is great...

problem is no forum is perfect...thats why a general one is great...

nothing too serious.

having said that I find being on neither extreme forums wise is better...

and lastly never criticise too much, I have always been critical but be helpful...some people just cant be helped thats for sure...or dont want to listen but being nice or trying to is the best way to be helpful...

and to finish off NOBODY knows eveything, no matter how loaded his or her sig line is or avatar is etc...

so learn to pic and chose and take advice with a grain of salt...there is no ONE WAY

peace


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## tgzzzz (Sep 7, 2005)

MedSailor said:


> Despair not, what you seek may yet exist. The SSCA Forum is the closest thing I've seen to what you describe. It's a low traffic forum, probably because the people are out on their long trips. Of course if you post to the forum of masters, then you risk becoming "that guy" asking the silly questions no?
> 
> SSCA Forum ? Index page
> 
> MedSailor


I haven't checked that out but maybe I will. I'm not too worried about being "that guy" but I take your point. Thx


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## zAr (Feb 22, 2009)

When I was a child I set out to explore. No real goal in mind, just the unknown needing to be known and experienced, things to be seen. Not even because they were there, just a driving sense of curiosity, wonderment and adventurous play. Seeing things for the first time, looking over things, under things, around things, looking at things upside down, being startled and in awe by the unexpected and un-thought of. Building your own boats, forts, cars, tanks, planes, trains, puddle canals, bridges, doing all sorts of role playing, imagining yourself as this or that. 

That said, some people are quite happy and content to see and do the same things every day for the rest of their lives.

But I think it's the same sense of wonder at the world that drives the circumnavigators among us, the seekers and discoverers, the barrier breakers. As someone mentioned, there are different kinds of circumnavigators - some do the nonstop, some do the X number of years cruise, others do the open-ended voyaging. Some do it with big bucks and big boats, some do it hungry with small boats. Some end up broke and having to abandon their boats.

Is it "worth" it or can some of us afford not to? To me it's like asking what's the point of building spaceships and exploring space, some will always see it as a waste of money and will never understand, asking why we bother talking about it.


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## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruis...ebrating-two-years-sailing-south-pacific.html

Livia must be the 1 in 10,000 who came on the forum wanting to circumnavigate as a novice sailor. I hope to be the 2nd in 20,000...dream big.

I started on the forum after putting an offer on a boat. Still a novice with about 100 miles behind me now. I put in new through-hulls, new toilet, tore out head liners, new bilge pump, sanded and coated keel and hull. Could not have come so far without the help from this forum....I very much appreciate the help.


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## Steady Hand (Jun 11, 2014)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Actually, I found out that the climbing community does catch flak when people get lost or injured and need to be plucked off of mountain tops in expensive, helicopter rescues that generate a lot of media attention.
> 
> The climbing community is spreading the word that they had better clean up their act, leave no trace and get self-sufficient, or they are going to find themselves heavily regulated, and cut off from prime climbing opportunities.
> 
> ...


I enjoyed reading this post. 

Especially the part about saving the boat to save the crew (essential in subs) which is an attitude in the navy that I think more recreational sailors should know/learn/adopt especially those who want to sail offshore (and presumably remote from assistance).

When one is alone in the middle of an ocean, saving the boat really is the best way to save the crew. 

I also liked your mention of the simple tools or devices used in damage control, and the lesson to use creativity to fix the problem or stem the leak using the strongbacks and patching materials.


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## Steady Hand (Jun 11, 2014)

zAr said:


> When I was a child I set out to explore. No real goal in mind, just the unknown needing to be known and experienced, things to be seen. Not even because they were there, just a driving sense of curiosity, wonderment and adventurous play. Seeing things for the first time, looking over things, under things, around things, looking at things upside down, being startled and in awe by the unexpected and un-thought of. Building your own boats, forts, cars, tanks, planes, trains, puddle canals, bridges, doing all sorts of role playing, imagining yourself as this or that.
> 
> That said, some people are quite happy and content to see and do the same things every day for the rest of their lives.
> 
> ...


Well said!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Steady Hand said:


> I enjoyed reading this post.
> 
> Especially the part about saving the boat to save the crew (essential in subs) which is an attitude in the navy that I think more recreational sailors should know/learn/adopt especially those who want to sail offshore (and presumably remote from assistance).
> 
> ...


Glad you enjoyed it. Now all I have to do, is live up to my own standards.


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

Just opinion: 
It's probably fair and not overly critical, to tell people who are completely new to sailing or voyaging that there are important things that they not only don't know, but aren't even aware that they don't know. And this can be done in a nice way. Similarly, it's fine to educate folks that there's far much more to sailing or cruising than just the circumnavigating notion. 

I think it's also important to know and respect that different people are comfortable with different levels of risk, that some like to dive right in and learn directly from their own experience whereas others like to learn gradually, extending their experiences bit by bit, learn from others, and maybe test their knowledge by asking lots of questions on a place like this. 

The catch is that a few people may combine a high level of risk tolerance, or even a desire for risk, with a lack of knowledge of the risk they are taking on, and also with a lack of preparation and reasonable care. If they then add to this mix a lack of responsibility for others in their care, then the chances of things going very wrong may get big quickly... 

A guess: When a tragedy happens, all cruisers might look a little bad as guilt by association and that could be a source of critical attitude toward those of the dreamers who sound particularly boldly fixed in cluelessness.


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