# Anchor Choice?



## foothillscuba (Dec 15, 2005)

We are making our final choices on equipment for our new IP440. I doing the selection of our anchors the choice seems to be a moving target with the tests being done this year by both PS (3 tests) and Sail Mag plus reading everthing else I can get my hands on ... I am coming to the conclusion that new designs have changed the choices. At this point I am Here (size appropriiate) : Hydro-bubble - Primary, Spade - 2nd, Fortress (back up)

This is such a change from when I started looking 2+ years ago. At that time it might have been: CRQ, Danforth, and Bruce.

I need your help.

Capt. Barb and 1st mate Terry
S/V Wind Whisperer-IP440-20


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

You're missing the best one - Manson Supreme. This is now my primary with a Bruce as secondary. Sold the plow.


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Barb -

This thread is likely to be highly opinionated. I'd recommend, first, searching the archives. There has been a lot of discussion about anchor types. Practical Sailor recently said the hydro-bubble was good. I personally like the Delta and have never had an issue with it, although I really want to get some feedback from someone on the new XYZ.

Chris


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## Brezzin (Dec 4, 2006)

I've been looking at the Rocna anchor out of new zealand. Interesting video of the testing

http://www.rocna.com


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd go with either a Spade, Rocna, or Manson Supreme for your primary anchor, and size it such that it can hold you in even the worst condtions with little trouble. They're all fairly comparable in terms of construction and holding power. 

The hydro bubble strikes me as a bit gimmicky, and the "bubble" part will lead to the anchor being less dense, and likely to not set as well IMHO. Also, how damage resistant is the bubble. My guess is that it isn't all that durable...and if the design of the anchor is such that the bubble is a critical element, damaging it is a problem...and if the anchor doesn't require it...the metal the mount for the bubble takes up could be better used elsewhere. 

A Danforth of some sort is a good kedge or secondary anchor, provided it is heavy enough. I prefer the non-high tensile strength versions of the Danforths. 

I'd avoid any stainless steel anchors, as they are not really suitable on a cruising boat, especially if you're going to be spending any significant amount of time on the hook. Stainless steel buried in mud is likely to corrode rather quickly, especially in the tropics. Aluminum anchors are also problematic and subject to corrosion as well. Galvanized steel is still the best material for an anchor or ground tackle gear. 

Having a hydrobubble as a primary and a spade as a secondary strikes me as a bit less than useful, given that they're both rather difficult to stow and unless your boat is equipped with a dual bow roller setup, it would make more sense to have a secondary that stores compactly, like a Danforth.

BTW, just for full disclosure, the primary on my boat is a Rocna.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHH....not again!!!


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

Nothing like anchor wars!!! By the way, that Manson Supreme can work better than a stake through the heart. Look at the tip!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

my 35 pound CQR has held under all conditions.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I'm with you Cam, soon as I saw it I said to myself "Oh no, here we go agian."

Foothill, no fault of your own, But as you can tell this has been discussed and debated many times over. 

You'll find more opinions on this topic than any other on the forums.
And none that agree! 

But hey, That's what makes it so great.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cam-

But it is so fun to talk about the different anchors... I'm just waiting for Alain and Craig to come into the dicussion...


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

http://www.dropshots.com/day.php?userid=86200&cdate=20060313&ctime=16000

Link to a homemade test.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hey Foothillscuba

Buy one of each of a size 10 feet longer than your boat, that should settle any arguement. Besides, some anchors are better under some conditions.

Or better yet, if you dive, go to a popular anchorage and scrounge the bottom. I've found 15 anchors that broke loose or were cut loose and later sold them at swap meets for some rightous bucks.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

THe preferred anchor of a true sailor is the rock with a rope tied around it. Plus it is just MORE effective than a Danforth but half the cost.

Save your money and go buy a good plow (Delta). Oversize it 1-2 times. Put it with all chain. Take the galvanized plow and throw it in the bilge when you come into port and grab one of those fancy new mousetraps. It should be stainless steel with 2 feet of stainless steel chain decending into the anchor locker (no one will open up your anchor locker to tell the difference). That way you can be the pride of the marina but still have a good night sleep when you really need something that works.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

By the way, I saw the Rocnor film, and was not too impressed. It seemed that some anchors were pulled faster than theirs, and .... I don't know....

Where I come from we don't have this BS about anchors. If its not holding, get the second anchor on a tandem. Simple done, end of discussion.


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

CruisingDad - ROFL!!!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I like the new water filled anchor from Ronco, builder of the pocket fisherman....


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Manson or Rocna then Spade...*



Vasco said:


> http://www.dropshots.com/day.php?userid=86200&cdate=20060313&ctime=16000
> 
> Link to a homemade test.


Hey thanks Vasco thats my video!!!

For a long time I used a CQR, like everyone, and would set it but never get what I considered to be a solid set. I would even dive on it and find it dug in sideways, or that it just dug a plow trough the bottom while I backed down on it. I then Switched to a Bruce, which did set better, but I always worried about the holding power as I could definitely move it with my boats engine and the Bruce was oversized for my boat. Next I tried a Spade and I thought it was the end all be all until I hit some harder bottom areas and my aluminum Spade would NOT penetrate the bottom. After reading many reviews of the Spades I decided to try a steel version and guess what it set perfectly on the first try in the same spot the aluminum version did not.

At this point I thought I had found my ultimate anchor. I could not budge it with the motor, it set first try 96+/-% of the time and when I dove on it it was burried in the stereo typical perfect set every time. I still beleived however that I could do better.

So one day I'm in Hamilton Marine in Portland, ME and I see this new fangled funny looking anchor with a roll bar called a Manson Supreme. I figured what the heck I already own a CQR, two Spades, a Fortress, Bruce & Delta what the heck why not try this one too. I figured it may become a weed anchor for me or a very hard bottom anchor and my steel Spade would be my primary. Well the day I launced my boat it was dead calm so on the way from my boat yard to my mooring I decided to try a few sets with the Manson. Now this is in an area I know to be very tough to get any anchor to set. I could never get my CQR to set in this location, ever, and so I avoided it for three years. The problem is it's a beautiful spot to anchor in and my wife and I really enjoy iit.

So I dropped the Manson and backed down on her attempting my first set with with the new anchor at about a 3:1 scope. I normally set long and then shorten scope to assure a good set and I NEVER set at 3:1 but I was experimenting remeber.. I backed down and BAM my boat just stopped dead iin the water and then lurched forward as the elasticty in the rode pulled the boat back forward. In my 38 years of boating I have never had an anchor that set so abruptly and definitively as the Manson Supreme. With the Manson you KNOW your set and there is NO mistaking it. I have made approximately 170 anchorings so far with the Manson and asside from catching a string of lobster pots on one set this anchor has set a 100% on the first try. The highest wind we rode out was a 50 knot blow and although we were well protected 4 boats out of the 6 total around us dragged. We stayed put but 50 knots in protected waters is no Hurricane! No matter how hard I back down I have not been able to move this anchor with my aux engine. The boat actually winds up spinning in an arc, due to prop walk, and yet even while spinning through a 180 degrees the Manson stays set. If you don't want to drag I advise 30+ feet of chain minimum and either a steel Spade or a Manson but the lead certainly goes to the Manson Supreme in my book. The Manson is my primary anchor with the steel spade as back up an the Fortress as my "directional" stern anchor. My Bruce, CQR and Delta make my boat shed have that nice nautical feel. They look nice hanging from the beam next to my old SeaGull outboard another relic from the past...

Above is a video I made of my Manson setting in a very, very hard packed intertidal zone. Yes I was anxious to try this anchor and my boat was not in the water yet. I was very anxious and wanted to see the setting characteristics of how the Manson Supreme anchor acted and I'd done this in the same spot with my CQR and Bruce before deciding to switch from the CQR to the Bruce years earlier. This intertidal zone is where I launch my brothers Boston Whaler and I drive my truck on it without even sinking in. I am in no way connected to Manson, hell I live in Maine, and Mansons are made down under in New Zealand. I have no motive in promoting the Spade or Manson other than the more Mansons out there the less I have to worry about other boats dragging into me..... Enjoy the video click on Drop Shots Day to view it...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Within all this debate about anchors and the tests in Practical Sailor and Sail Magazine, I have never had anyone point out that on land, plows are designed to plow a furrow, not dig in and hold. All the new anchors seem to be reverse plows. If I tried to plow the north forty on my dad's farm with a Spade, I don't think the old John Deere would get very far!


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## Craig Smith (Jun 21, 2006)

Well I think we've finally reached the point where we don't have to write two pages of theory and detail to build an argument. It's very simple:










Last argument, why to avoid copies, if the Supreme's position on the above chart isn't enough:









_Here, the 35lb Supreme performs comparably with the 32lb Rocna in two of three locations, but proves unreliable "west of wharf"_

Is a 2/3 reliability good enough? Just like Bruce always argued with regard to their imitators, "Would you leap from a plane with a haversack on your back because it looks like the real thing and comes at a rock bottom price? Remember an anchor is a safety device upon which the survival of you and your boat may ultimately depend."

Meanwhile the recommendation of a Delta continues to be good advice. As can be seen, even when tested in a very unfriendly environment, it compares very favorably even with the more modern designs. For example, SAIL's averaged holding power of the Delta was 3250lbs, vs the Manson Supreme at 2400lbs. Yachting Monthly reported the (genuine) Delta "set quickly and firmly" and called it "a consistent performer".

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Giulietta, while you have the right to be a cynic of our video, your tandem set-up is a disaster waiting to happen. I addressed that briefly on another thread.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Craig Smith said:


> Giulietta, while you have the right to be a cynic of our video, your tandem set-up is a disaster waiting to happen. I addressed that briefly on another thread.


Please, I am not cynic, that is a stong word, at least where I am (a cynic is a deceiver), I might be hard to convince.

Anyway, let me tell you that it's been 30 years now that I have been waiting for the disaster, and I am not in the caribbean or in a lake, this here is the North Atlantic  . But, I have no charts to prove my point, on the tandem. Never needed to....

Tell you what, send me an anchor to Portugal, I'll test it during the summer on Giulietta, in the Culatra island, where we have sand/mud/weed/stones sea floors, 5 to 6 kts currents twice a day, and sometimes 30kts winds.

If I like it, I'll pay it, and come here publically to tell everyone that you're right, and eat my hat.

Deal??


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## Wayne25 (Jul 26, 2006)

Doesn't seem to be too many places that sell them here in the USA. Did a Google search. Looks like there is a Canadian factory.

Wayne


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

That's what I've always wondered. If it's that great how come nobody sells them?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A lot of marine products are made by small companies and not widely available at first. I don't believe the Rocna anchors are all that old a design btw. As part of full disclosure... I have one and have been very happy with it, but do not have any affiliation with the company other than being a customer.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Re: Manson vs. Rocna*

As I've told Craig before, I purchased my Manson as an experiment and it became my primary anchor. I actually completely test my anchors in areas I know to be troublesome for holding and setting. If the Rocna is that much better than my manson I may buy one once Craig gets his US distribution network in place. The cost is a big issue though. I have a tough time understanding why the Rocna costs double what the Manson does. I could see maybe 20% more but but not double (based on the price I paid at Hamilton Marine).. I personally did not have great luck with my Delta but, due to Craigs glowing praise, I may test it against the Spade again this spring to see which anchor wins as a back up. My Manson sets, holds and stays set so much better than any other anchor I've ever owned that it makes it tough to fathom the Rocna could be that much better....


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## Craig Smith (Jun 21, 2006)

halekai36 said:


> The cost is a big issue though. I have a tough time understanding why the Rocna costs double what the Manson does. I could see maybe 20% more but but not double (based on the price I paid at Hamilton Marine)..


Now hold on. I don't like quoting prices as they tend to get out-of-date, but here's an exception. Suncoast Marine's pricing (in Vancouver) for Rocna converted to USD vs Hamilton Marine's pricing for Manson Supreme:


```
[B]Kg	lbs	Rocna Canada	Supreme Hamilton[/B]
4.0	8.8	$196	
6.0	13.2	$235	
6.8	15.0			$190
10.0	22.0	$312	
11.3	25.0			$280
15.0	33.1	$383	
15.9	35.0			$398
20.0	44.1	$512	
20.4	45.0			$510
25.0	55.1	$619	
27.2	60.0			$678
33.0	72.8	$725
```
And Hamilton don't seem to go any higher with sizes so I've stopped the comparison there.
All net prices.

"Double" seems unfair.



halekai36 said:


> My Manson sets, holds and stays set so much better than any other anchor I've ever owned that it makes it tough to fathom the Rocna could be that much better....


Ref. the testing, and construction issues.



halekai36 said:


> I personally did not have great luck with my Delta but, due to Craigs glowing praise, I may test it against the Spade again this spring to see which anchor wins as a back up.


Don't bother, the Spade is better. I'm not saying the Delta is perfect, but it's pretty good. Not to be dismissed as "just another plow" along with the CQR etc.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

looks like Craig missed a few posts.....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Craig,

I am seriously considering the Ronca as the primary anchor for my new boat. She is 15.21 m overall, 14.58 m on deck, 13.36 m waterline and she has a listed displacement of 14,900 kg. Am I correct in assuming that the 40 kg is the correct size?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

What is this, a thread that competing anchor companies can tout their wares? "Oh look, we've taken a CQR and filed an arrow point on it and put a ring on it and now we're something different and the best, and here's a bunch of charts that proves it" Give me a break!

I like cruisingdad's rock on a rope. In other words if it works for you, it Works. The FACT is, there's no perfect anchor for all conditions. What does work is an attentive skipper, the right (big enough) anchor for the conditions, and iron rode. You guys with the perfect anchor . . . .Just stay the hell away from me.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

ian...while i am very tired of these anchor threads myself...everyone still has to pick the 2 anchors that will work "best" for them. How else does a newbie pick one except by listening to everyone tout their anchor as best and the experience the membership has had?? You and I both know that there are several anchors that will work for our boats and our cruising areas and others we would not consider. New cruisers end up with some terrible stuff on their bows sometimes...and end up dragging OUR rodes along with them!... so to the extent that this helps a few along the way...it is worthwhile if tiresome. 
I don't think craig or alain go too far in touting their products and competing test results and interpertations especially since they also provide good advice about the general subject. We can't all be like Halekai and do our own test so it is interesting to see all the DIFFERENT results especially when they are done by independent organizations. 
Besides....I have an idea for a new anchor...I've busy welding a Rocna, Spade and Manson into something that looks like a treble hook. So far it is superior to everything on the market but I can't get it up off the bottom once it is dug in. I think I need to add a CQR for a quick release! <g>


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## Craig Smith (Jun 21, 2006)

dawndreamer said:


> I am seriously considering the Ronca as the primary anchor for my new boat. She is 15.21 m overall, 14.58 m on deck, 13.36 m waterline and she has a listed displacement of 14,900 kg. Am I correct in assuming that the 40 kg is the correct size?


You could get away with a 33, which is rated for a 16m boat up to 15 tonnes. Our sizing is conservative to start with, but your boat is at the upper end of that range, and actual weights always tend to be more than listed displacements. If you're leaning toward the 40 anyway, then why not go for the larger size.


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## Wayne25 (Jul 26, 2006)

camaraderie:
Thanks for your thoughtfulness! I was thankful for the information presented as it pointed me to older posts and tests and also this new information. An informed decision is a good decision. Or at least I hope so.

Wayne


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Wayne25 said:


> camaraderie:
> Thanks for your thoughtfulness! I was thankful for the information presented as it pointed me to older posts and tests and also this new information. An informed decision is a good decision. Or at least I hope so.
> 
> Wayne


I'll second your motion.


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## mrkeith (Jan 25, 2006)

*anchors and chain*

i always thought that it was the amount of chain dropped rather than anchor. i have a cqr which always held as long as i put 5x the chain out. i took off most of the chain cuz i was trying to lighten boat for racing, and yesterday the boat dragged for the first time after i dropped 2x the length for chain. wind was 25knots. i m guessing my problem was too little chain rather than anchor? i guess one can't race while maintaining sufficient chain? any thoughts? thanks


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

mrkeith said:


> i always thought that it was the amount of chain dropped rather than anchor. i have a cqr which always held as long as i put 5x the chain out. i took off most of the chain cuz i was trying to lighten boat for racing, and yesterday the boat dragged for the first time after i dropped 2x the length for chain. wind was 25knots. i m guessing my problem was too little chain rather than anchor? i guess one can't race while maintaining sufficient chain? any thoughts? thanks


For racing, I actually have (because they force me to) an alluminum anchor inside, and absolutely no chain, just to make the rulers happy.

I almost made one out of wood, and it would be painted grey, but then if they inspected I would be in trouble....

The only thing is don't forget to install the real anchor when you go out cruising!!! The aluminum anchor almost floats!!!


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

*Matt.*..thanks. If you want more reading, there are a lot of discussions also on the subject over at www.ssca.org bulletin board. 
*Keith*...With my CQR's over the years, I've found that all chain is NOT the best rode. I find that about 50-100 ft. and then a nylon rode works best as all chain tends to pull the anchor out in heavy conditions when the chain is stretched bar tight. The longer nylon rode I find let's the gusts of wind stretch it without jerking on the chain so hard and it ends up staying set better. NOTE: I am not saying this works best with all anchors but it has made a difference in my experience with CQR's. With my Delta (primary) I use standard all chain with long snubbers and that seems to work so it may just be CQR's that benefit from this.

I think another subject which doesn't get much attention is HOW to anchor. Maybe some discussion should be held on how we all drop anchor and get our anchors to set and hold. My guess is that there is quite a bit of variance there as well depending on cruising grounds/anchor type and boat.


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

Craig Smith (Rocna) posts a price of $510 for a 45# Manson Supreme when comparing Rocna Prices to Manson prices. You can buy a Manson Supreme 45# for $350. I know, I got one.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Cam - good luck on the *RocSpaMan *anchor 

I guess if I had any other advice to give a newbie it would be to walk the docks, find a boat their size, and talk to the owner if he/she is experienced, how often they anchor out, and which anchors they prefer. Yacht and sailing clubs are good for that. The point being, different areas have different anchoring requirements, and as far as I know, there's no perfect all around anchor, but there are perfect anchors for some conditions. And, I'll tell ya, $600.00 for an anchor that won't meet the local conditions is a pretty expensive bow ornament. I tried to upload a picture but was unsuccessful of a chinese donut anchor used about 200 years ago. I found it on the bottom, obviously the anchor worked, the rode failed!


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

mrkeith said:


> i always thought that it was the amount of chain dropped rather than anchor. i have a cqr which always held as long as i put 5x the chain out. i took off most of the chain cuz i was trying to lighten boat for racing, and yesterday the boat dragged for the first time after i dropped 2x the length for chain. wind was 25knots. i m guessing my problem was too little chain rather than anchor? i guess one can't race while maintaining sufficient chain? any thoughts? thanks


My guess would be that you have most likely not been setting your anchor and the chain and "cynder block effect" have been holding you. Anchors MUST be set and should hold your boat in reverse at full throttle period. Full reverse throttle with a sail boat aux engine is barely 25 knots of wind in terms of force. I run approx 40 feet of 3/8 chain to a 5/8 rode with my anchor and it holds perfectly fine. You really MUST set an anchor by either backwinding the sails or backing down using the motor. Using the cynderblock and all chain technique is fine in benign conditions but not with winds over 15 knots. I have watched literally thousands of anchorings over the years where there was NO setting of the anchor. If this is what you are doing don't feel so bad this is a common theme among boaters. Though not a good theme!


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Craig..*



Craig Smith said:


> Now hold on. I don't like quoting prices as they tend to get out-of-date, but here's an exception. Suncoast Marine's pricing (in Vancouver) for Rocna converted to USD vs Hamilton Marine's pricing for Supreme:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


Perhaps the prices for the BC Canada distributor have gone down and Hamilton's up but I still paid about half for my Manson when I bought it. Hamilton offers discounts, to good customers, well beyond their catalog prices and I happen to be considered a good customer with a Hamilton Harine account. Lots of folks in my area have Hamilton Marine accounts. Now I know this is a little unfair being that I get a discount but the reality is that I'm a boat owner and bought my Manson for about half the delivered price of the Rocna. The big clincher here is that you did not quote freight from Canada or the fact they told me that with customs and ground shipping it could take a month or more to get it.

If in fact the price for a Rocna and a Manson (to the end user) is only $42.00 more on the 25lb. size than I will buy one but we need a dealer here in the North East! The shipping charges from BC are outrageous.

Craig I'm not trying to slam you here. I support the general design and have no doubt the Rocna is better built and that it performs better. I would just like to be able to buy one at close to the price of a Manson Supreme without massive shipping charges.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

For what it is worth...here's the regular price West charges for the steel Spade:
Anchor-Shade Steel 33 Only $449.99 USD Anchor-Spade Steel 44







Only $624.99 USD Anchor-Spade Steel 66 Only $939.99 USD

And here's the Deltas:

88lb $655.
55lb $450.00 
44lb, $350.00 
35lb $265.00 
22lb $195.99
14lb $139.99


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

Over the years, I have anchored with Danforth and CQR hooks with pretty good success. We used all chain on some occasions and we used nylon rope with a shot of chain at anchor end otherwise.

Glad I didn't know how ineffective those things were. I'd never have been able to sleep!


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## mrkeith (Jan 25, 2006)

halekai36 said:


> My guess would be that you have most likely not been setting your anchor and the chain and "cynder block effect" have been holding you. Anchors MUST be set and should hold your boat in reverse at full throttle period. Full reverse throttle with a sail boat aux engine is barely 25 knots of wind in terms of force. I run approx 40 feet of 3/8 chain to a 5/8 rode with my anchor and it holds perfectly fine. You really MUST set an anchor by either backwinding the sails or backing down using the motor. Using the cynderblock and all chain technique is fine in benign conditions but not with winds over 15 knots. I have watched literally thousands of anchorings over the years where there was NO setting of the anchor. If this is what you are doing don't feel so bad this is a common theme among boaters. Though not a good theme!


yep, you are right, no offense taken!
thanks for the good point


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## MansonAnchors (Jan 29, 2007)

Thanks for the great response Halekai36. Its great getting such fantastic feedback on the Manson Supreme. 
We dont try and use these forums as a personal sales/marketing tool and hence, dont push our own products on them. 
Appreciate the comments and try not to take on too much of what us anchor makers say.....we are all biased. Listen to those who use the products.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

We have had great success with inexpensive grappling hooks - we wait until it's quite late and then pull up behind a big heavy gold plated yacht with a profuse array of deployed ground tackle - toss our grappling hook so that it hooks around their stern lifelines - tie it off on our bow cleat and go to bed. In the morning we apologise profusely while we're slipping the line off our bow cleat and sailing off.

In the past we used to lose a couple of anchors a year, average $175.00 - so this is actually cheaper as the hooks only cost about $10.00 each, and we are usually anchored for no more than 20 nights total in a season.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Sailorman,

SO THAT WAS YOU YING UP TO ME!! Just wait until the next time I catch you.

- CD


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Sailormann -

We usually do something slightly different. We drag our grappling hook across the bottom until we catch the ground tackle of one of the gold plated yachts. Then, when we leave, we accidentally pull up their stainless steel anchor (thinking it's ours). A few weeks later, when all of a sudden we realize that we have an extra anchor on board, we put it on eBay on use the money to repaint our bottom or get more cool boat stuff.


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