# Boat Loan



## bravehaarrt (Mar 26, 2013)

OK went house hunting and was so put off with the garbage I am asked to do by my loan processor that I want to go another route. Having said that, where could a man go to get a boat loan. My credit union wont go more than 5 years. I was wanting to go much longer to get the mo pmt down.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Credit Unions often have the most flexible terms. Really depends on how much you want to borrow, but it will be tough without a house. Banks like to see stable, both location and income. Few will loan if you plan to liveaboard, unless you have a long history with a local bank. Are you a veteran by chance? I have heard of folks getting good terms from the VA. But unless you are talking new boats, I doubt you will see more than 5 year terms.


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## bravehaarrt (Mar 26, 2013)

I'm not a veteran. Boat US advertises 15 and 20 yr loans but I have never dealt with them before. I do have a house in another state - maybe that will do?


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I think it really depends on the $ of the loan, and how long they think the asset will hold its value. Are you dealing with a boat broker? They likely know good sources of loans, as it is to there benefit to make sure the deal goes through.


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## Rapp (Nov 16, 2014)

The cheapest way to pull money out of a house is a Home equity line of credit or home equity loan.It may be difficult if its your second home though and it'll depend on the area,there's still a lot of foreclosures coming back on the market pulling down comps and banks aren't too aggresively lending right now.


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

Now you know what BoatUS is doing with all those insurance payments. *grin*

I'm gonna second the idea of going to a specialist, broker or otherwise. That's the sort of lender that's actually going to understand the depreciation curve of boats (which confused conventional lenders that only really understand "boat" as a ski-tow or bass-fishing platform, being actually someplace between "house" and "car"), and know what kind of requirements make sense to apply to secure the loan.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I've gotten 2 15 year term boat loans the past 6 years. 1 was from Essex on a $72k boat and current is with Suntrust on a $115k boat. Both were with 20% down and during the recession.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

home equity loan can be a good way. the loan interest is a write off. boat loans there is no write off in most cases. if you can get enough from the equity in a home to buy the boat you do not need a down payment like a boat loan so you can keep some cash. you will however spend the cash to fix the boat, so it will be spent and then some. with a yacht broker, the seller pays the broker fees and he want the boat to sell.


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## theonecalledtom (Jan 2, 2008)

Wells Fargo did our first loan on a 30 year old boat but it took us six months and a huge amount of hassle to get the paperwork saying we owned the boat after we'd paid it off...... completely ridiculous.


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## bravehaarrt (Mar 26, 2013)

Buying a house in Missouri has got to be different than anywhere else. Minimal amount of paper work and settlement for the last place I sold was $550. Here in FL? OMG - $6000 just for settlement and that's on a cheap house. 

I'd prefer just about any alternative.


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## Hush34 (Dec 12, 2013)

If you think living on a boat will be cheaper than living ashore, you may want to sharpen your pencil and refigure your calculations. Homes appreciate (generally) boats depreciate (always). Enough said.


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## bravehaarrt (Mar 26, 2013)

not too worried about appreciation in todays market. Monthly expense is the big consideration. Positive monthly cash flow is #1 for me now. If a boat can provide the highest number, then a boat it will be. And I really am sick of people putting their hands in my pocket who have done nothing to earn it, aka-settlement fees...


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

overbored said:


> home equity loan can be a good way. the loan interest is a write off. boat loans there is no write off in most cases. if you can get enough from the equity in a home to buy the boat you do not need a down payment like a boat loan so you can keep some cash. you will however spend the cash to fix the boat, so it will be spent and then some. with a yacht broker, the seller pays the broker fees and he want the boat to sell.


BoatUS says boat loan interest gets a deduction just like mortgage interest, so long as the boat in question has a head, galley, and berths. And the Sales/Use tax paid counts as a deduction as well.

Tax Tip: Boat Owners May Have Federal Tax Deductions Available : BoatUS Press Room


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

Hush34 said:


> If you think living on a boat will be cheaper than living ashore, you may want to sharpen your pencil and refigure your calculations. Homes appreciate (generally) boats depreciate (always). Enough said.


Yeah, but the house money doesn't come back out until you sell, if then. Most of the friends I've got that bought houses in 2005-2008 are *still* under water, even if they're perfectly able to make their payments. Maybe the place will appreciate back up to what they paid again sometime, but it ain't yet. Places that do better? Well, they're the ones where used houses go for new boat money anyway. You might be able to pay off $20k plus interest per year, but I can't.


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## Rapp (Nov 16, 2014)

I see from the original post that you started looking for a house and got aggravated so you switched to looking at boats to live on.I think it may be best for you to reconsider going back to house hunting.I see you're a handyman from looking at your profile.My reasoning is this-there are no deductions for taxes ,interest on boat loans,also being a handyman you have an advantage,you can get a fixer upper and use a 203b loan to fix it up.Thats an FHA loan with minimal down,then its like a construction loan from there.There are plenty of other ways to go about finding a home.Small banks usually sell their repos themselves.Call around, ask for REO departments in the banks,a lot of times they will finance them for you.Older FHA loans and VA loans are assumable.I've talked to small banks that had loans that weren't assumable and they allowed me to take over loans that were in default.I've been in Real Estate for 28 years and one thing I learned is you have to knock on more than one door for financing.There are plenty of oppurtunites especially if you can do work yourself.I,m not trying to talk you out of the boat deal,but just give you some other options.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Hush34 said:


> If you think living on a boat will be cheaper than living ashore, you may want to sharpen your pencil and refigure your calculations. Homes appreciate (generally) boats depreciate (always). Enough said.


Well while boats generally depreciate, many do not nearly as much as some think or say. A 30ish foot 1970's to 80's in good shape likely sells for very close to what it cost to buy new. Go to a high end quality boat like a Hinkley and they appreciate even new. So it is not so that they "always" depreciate. Houses also come with property and school tax that boats don't in most states. Here in New York I doubt, after figuring in the cost of taxes, property has appreciated for 10 years or more, and still have not come to near where they were. Figure maintenance costs on a boat to be about the same as on a modest house. And your slip fees are going to be a loss for sure. But Here in New York (about 70 miles north of NYC) I have a modest house (about 1400 square feet) and after taxes but before any maintenance or utilities it costs me about 1,500 a month. My utilities are over 400 a month (electric, water, oil for heating and basic cable/phone/internet, no air-conditioning) Granted I have a lot more room than I would in boat. But the least expensive studio is going to be about $950 a month + utilities, and be in a not great neighborhood and not much more room that a 35 foot boat.

So my point is that some places it actually can make financial sense to live aboard. Don't even get me started about NYC. So long as you buy smart I think it can make perfect financial sense to liveaboard. Buy a new boat, will be a loss for sure. Is it for everyone, no. For me it is more an issue of can I afford both, no. So what do I want more a house or a boat, now that is an easy answer. If I am going to sail on anything but a tiny trailer sailor I have to liveaboard. But I am becoming single so don't have to answer to anyone.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

theonecalledtom said:


> Wells Fargo did our first loan on a 30 year old boat but it took us six months and a huge amount of hassle to get the paperwork saying we owned the boat after we'd paid it off...... completely ridiculous.


wow thats my bank...they have some weird things for sure...its obvious they make money as they are pretty much the biggest bank here and elsewhere they seem to be doing great

I wish it would trickle down to the consumer...

we are looking for a loan for a house next year


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> wow thats my bank...they have some weird things for sure...its obvious they make money as they are pretty much the biggest bank here and elsewhere they seem to be doing great
> 
> I wish it would trickle down to the consumer...
> 
> we are looking for a loan for a house next year


They hold my mortgage and were awful to deal with. Left hand had no clue about what the right hand was doing. They screwed up two separate deals and prevented another from even starting.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

screw that!


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I've owned 17 boats, never borrowed anything from a bank to buy 16 of them. The very first boat I owned was purchased in 1962, a 30-foot powerboat cruiser made of mahogany. It was custom built by the original owner in his back yard and it was beautiful. He was 70 year old when I met him and said he was no longer physically able to go out on the boat safely. He offered it to me for $1,500, which back then was a lot of money to me. I went to the back to borrow the money and they turned me down, saying they just don't feel comfortable loaning money on boats. I had to come up with a 40-percent down payment before they would agree to loan me the balance at 12-percent interest. Since then, I've paid cash for every boat - just makes a lot more sense to me.

Gary


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## Rapp (Nov 16, 2014)

travlineasy said:


> I've owned 17 boats, never borrowed anything from a bank to buy 16 of them. The very first boat I owned was purchased in 1962, a 30-foot powerboat cruiser made of mahogany. It was custom built by the original owner in his back yard and it was beautiful. He was 70 year old when I met him and said he was no longer physically able to go out on the boat safely. He offered it to me for $1,500, which back then was a lot of money to me. I went to the back to borrow the money and they turned me down, saying they just don't feel comfortable loaning money on boats. I had to come up with a 40-percent down payment before they would agree to loan me the balance at 12-percent interest. Since then, I've paid cash for every boat - just makes a lot more sense to me.
> 
> Gary


It would be great if more people could do that,but in these times most people have little or no cash.I saw a statistic on Credit card debt the other day that blew me away,something like 70% of people have set a financial goal to just get out of debt,mainly Credit card.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

Rapp said:


> My reasoning is this-there are no deductions for taxes ,interest on boat loans


Absolutely untrue. Look up a few posts and you will see what Boat US has to say about interest on a boat loan. It's treated just like a mortgage. There are caveats based on the number of mortgages one has.


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## Rapp (Nov 16, 2014)

sailpower said:


> Absolutely untrue. Look up a few posts and you will see what Boat US has to say about interest on a boat loan. It's treated just like a mortgage. There are caveats based on the number of mortgages one has.


I guess there are requirements that need to be met for it to qualify,I wouldn't trust BoatUs though,I think I'd check with the IRS before taking it,but I do believe you're correct ,I know some RVs count as deductable.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

Rapp said:


> I guess there are requirements that need to be met for it to qualify,I wouldn't trust BoatUs though,I think I'd check with the IRS before taking it,but I do believe you're correct ,I know some RVs count as deductable.


Wouldn't trust Boat US? Boat US was a major player in defeating the proposal to take away the deduction.

Boat loans have been deductible as first or second homes for many years.


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## Rapp (Nov 16, 2014)

sailpower said:


> Wouldn't trust Boat US? Boat US was a major player in defeating the proposal to take away the deduction.
> 
> Boat loans have been deductible as first or second homes for many years.


Sorry,I wrote that then read what they said.I believe the article said if it had a galley and head.I guess what I should have said is"I would still be careful before taking the deduction as the IRS may view things differently on what qualifies"I was on a crabbing forum for years and just left because people sat around in the off season bickering and arguing,and during the season there were people just sitting around looking for things they didn't agree with so they could pounce on them.I truly hope thats not the case here,as I've already learned quite a bit and someone has already offered to take me out and show me how to sail.I also made some good friends on that forum and had hoped to here also.I hope I've misjudged you as a nitpicker here,but it does seem to me that way.Accept my apology in advance if I have.If I am correct please don't do it anymore as I'd like to become involved on this forum and not choose to leave like I did on the other.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Getting a home loan in Florida is no more complicated, nor any more expensive, than anywhere else. I've gotten home loans in 5 different states over the years, more than one home loan in Florida, and they are all pretty much the same.

If you think you are going to get away from closing costs and settlement fees by getting a loan on a boat, rather than a house, I'm afraid you are in for a rude awakening. If anything, a boat loan is more complicated and more expensive than a home loan, for the simple reason that the banks are much more familiar with home loans and more comfortable with the collateral value that a home provides.

Best of luck to you, but I really don't see any way that you can make your life any easier or cheaper by trying to substitute a boat loan for a home loan.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The IRS doesn't care if your home floats, flies, or falls. They've got some pretty clear rules posted on their web site, and their phone support can explain them exactly the same way.

If the place you hang your hat has a galley, a head, and a bunk? It qualifies as a home for the purpose of home mortgage deductions. 

They used to require a specific document from the mortgage holder which also confirmed this was your residence(?) or home, I don't know if that's required any more. But one phone call to their toll-free number gets you phone advice, online publications, and even a printed copy in the US mail if you ask nicely.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

Rapp said:


> Sorry,I wrote that then read what they said.I believe the article said if it had a galley and head.I guess what I should have said is"I would still be careful before taking the deduction as the IRS may view things differently on what qualifies"I was on a crabbing forum for years and just left because people sat around in the off season bickering and arguing,and during the season there were people just sitting around looking for things they didn't agree with so they could pounce on them.I truly hope thats not the case here,as I've already learned quite a bit and someone has already offered to take me out and show me how to sail.I also made some good friends on that forum and had hoped to here also.I hope I've misjudged you as a nitpicker here,but it does seem to me that way.Accept my apology in advance if I have.If I am correct please don't do it anymore as I'd like to become involved on this forum and not choose to leave like I did on the other.


If you read any of my posts you will see that I am not a nit picker.

What you posted was wrong and left uncorrected would mislead others who might read it later.

Maybe there is a lesson there?

Good luck with your learning. It never stops!


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

denverd0n said:


> If you think you are going to get away from closing costs and settlement fees by getting a loan on a boat, rather than a house, I'm afraid you are in for a rude awakening. If anything, a boat loan is more complicated and more expensive than a home loan, for the simple reason that the banks are much more familiar with home loans and more comfortable with the collateral value that a home provides.


I was reading OP's position not as "avoiding costs and fees" but rather as "Gee, I'd like to be able to buy a place to live near the water for tens of thousands of dollars instead of hundreds of thousands of dollars."


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## Rapp (Nov 16, 2014)

sailpower said:


> If you read any of my posts you will see that I am not a nit picker.
> 
> What you posted was wrong and left uncorrected would mislead others who might read it later.
> 
> ...


I was referring to the second comment,but will take your word you're not a nitpicker and end this here as I'm here to learn not engage in arguments.I may have been prejudging due to past experiences as I am a newbie here.And I do believe it was smart for you to post that as it is good info because boats will qualify for the second home deduction also and that can be a biggie.


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## cheoah (Jul 5, 2011)

Yep no nitpicking here either, but tax code is is tax code! If there was ever a thing to nitpick about......  A boat with those qualities does qualify. It's a salient point for this thread, which I'm sort of scratching my head over. 

Lenders are much stricter now, especially with boats. There is no benefit to them getting stuck with your boat in the case of default. It's a loss for them, on security that goes downhill quickly without maintenance, and also costs a lot to,store, or move. Just imagine you've got the money and can choose what to invest in and loaning a guy money for a boat starts looking pretty risky. 

I still,wonder how,I even got my loan in 2009 after banks changed their requirements. My first boat loan was prior,to,the recession,,and they threw the money at me. I had,to,work hard for the recent one, about 2009. High credit, liquidity, and tons of documentation. They do not see that market as anything like the housing market, it involves much more risk. 

Are you working with a boat finance company? I most recently worked with sterling acceptance in Annapolis. They work with the lenders and can make stuff happen. My boat was 22 years old at the time and they financed for 15 years. Most won't touch boats over 20 years old. The lady I worked with is like a loan drill sergeant though so she won't have much love for,ya. She's all about getting loans closed and can't change what a Lender like suntrust wants. 

Best of luck, boat ,money isn't easy money to borrow, period. I had no choice, but was making a solid long term investment in our future. Not financial, just an investment in a dream. 

cheers-


Sent from my iSomething using tapatalk


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

If you are near the water, there is undoubtedly an experienced marine lender in your area. They all have minimum loan amount and maximum loan to value and years to repay. They will also have maximum age of the collateral and likely a sliding scale on how long they will allow repayment based on the age of the boat. You'll likely need a survey and will definitely need insurance (which will also require a survey). If you are going to live aboard in FL, insurance is going to get your attention, due to hurricane season.

Don't just go to a lender that makes small "recreational" loans for motorcycles, RVs, etc. Their rates will be high and they won't necessarily have the marine nuances down. You'll want a lender that is familiar with clearing title, etc.

A quick google suggested FL is full of marine lenders.

BTW, I dislike Credit Unions. Their rates are lower because they don't pay taxes. They do make money, so that must mean I'm paying their share of taxes.


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## Rusty123 (Sep 28, 2012)

My bank (USAA) offers "recreational" loans at rates as low as 4.25%, for amounts all the way up to and exceeding $100k, for terms up to 10 or even 20 years. And from experience, I know that financing a boat through them is (or at least can be) very easy - similar to a car loan.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm a bit surprised the "don't ever finance a boat" crowd hasn't arrived yet. 

Not good to finance a toy. Okay if it is your home. 

That said, you really do want a serious downpayment, as your boat could lose a ton of value and you always want to be in a position to be able to get out. Unlike a house, a boat is much less liquid.


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## Rusty123 (Sep 28, 2012)

There's been thousands of books written on personal finance, so not much chance that this obscure thread will add much, but I would offer these two observations:

*At reasonable interest rates and terms, interest is a minor contributor to the total cost of boat ownership.

*As interest rates approach the rate of inflation (my home mortgage, for example, is less than 3%), the primary consideration becomes one of cash flow, vice cost of financing.


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## Ded reckoner (Feb 17, 2013)

We applied to both BoatUS and USAA for long term loans. Either can be prepaid with no penalty. We finally went with USAA since their rate was lower. Both companies are easy to work with and seem to be very professional. I don't know the eligibility requirements for working with USAA, but you could also check with your current home or auto insurance company and inquire if they have this line of business.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"My bank (USAA) "
USAA generally is not open to the general public, but only to servicemen and their families. So for _most _of the public, USAA doesn't exist.
Or is their banking and loan department serving the general pubic these days?


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## Rusty123 (Sep 28, 2012)

I think that USAA membership is restricted, but I don't think their rates are dramatically different than those available elsewhere. They're operating in the same general economy as the other banks, though perhaps with a somewhat prescreened customer base.


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## bravehaarrt (Mar 26, 2013)

One problem is I'm in Sarasota. Investors have jacked home prices up over the past two years so that to get into a decent house in a decent hood were talking 150k to start. Sticker shock Aside, one could make the argument that the area is a bubble - making a live aboard situation more appealing.

Having a 1600 monthly payment is one thing but when 80-90% of it goes to the tic (somewhere other than principle) your on a boat anyway... AKA the slow boat to nowhere.

I appreciate all the input ~ keep it coming...


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## Rusty123 (Sep 28, 2012)

A side comment on insurance - I also insured my boat through USAA, but the actual insurer was Progressive. And neither required a survey (though I did get one prior to purchase).


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

progressive is the easiest boat insurance option I have ever had...


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## Rapp (Nov 16, 2014)

bravehaarrt said:


> One problem is I'm in Sarasota. Investors have jacked home prices up over the past two years so that to get into a decent house in a decent hood were talking 150k to start. Sticker shock Aside, one could make the argument that the area is a bubble - making a live aboard situation more appealing.
> 
> Having a 1600 monthly payment is one thing but when 80-90% of it goes to the tic (somewhere other than principle) your on a boat anyway... AKA the slow boat to nowhere.
> 
> I appreciate all the input ~ keep it coming...


As long as you sock away the savings I agree.If you end up spending it all,you'll be no better off and have lived in less desirable quarters.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> progressive is the easiest boat insurance option I have ever had...


Unfortunately they do not cover liveaboards.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

hellsop said:


> I was reading OP's position not as "avoiding costs and fees" but rather as "Gee, I'd like to be able to buy a place to live near the water for tens of thousands of dollars instead of hundreds of thousands of dollars."


Well, in the first post he specifically said that he is "put off with the garbage I am asked to do by my loan processor," and later complained about the paperwork and settlement costs related to a home loan.

Once again, to the OP, if you think you are going to get away from those issues by getting a boat loan instead of a home loan, you are in for a very rude awakening.


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## bravehaarrt (Mar 26, 2013)

denverd0n said:


> Well, in the first post he specifically said that he is "put off with the garbage I am asked to do by my loan processor," and later complained about the paperwork and settlement costs related to a home loan.
> 
> Once again, to the OP, if you think you are going to get away from those issues by getting a boat loan instead of a home loan, you are in for a very rude awakening.


Based on 100K mortgage (if you can find one that cheap) $6000 in fees paid to people who do next to nothing just to make the purchase. $130 a month thereafter for a mortgage insurance policy that you are never allowed to see which is payable to someone else, $100 a month or more for taxes on property YOU own (supposedly) Mandatory insurance fees of $100 a month which is overpriced (do the math). and then there is compound interest... Out of a $800 payment - 100 goes to principle (ASSUMING the market doesn't tank leaving you under water.

You're telling me a boat loan is as much or more oppressive the above? Please explain...


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

You need to learn how to shop for a mortgage. I just went through refinancing my home in Florida. Just over $100k. Cost me less than $500 total. If the fees you are quoting above are really the best that you can find then, no offense, I have to assume that you have VERY bad credit and almost no down payment. If those assumptions are true, you probably won't be able to get a boat loan at all--at any price. If those assumptions are not true, then there is absolutely no reason to pay that much for a home loan.

Bottom line, again, getting a boat loan is neither easier, nor less expensive, than getting a home loan. Most of the time it is both more difficult and more expensive.

Good luck, whatever you end up doing.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

miatapaul said:


> Unfortunately they do not cover liveaboards.


hhhmm is that a new thing? I had them in berkeley...cant remember if that was part of the coverage or not


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## Rapp (Nov 16, 2014)

FHA loans carry a 3% settlement cost,I'm not sure about PMI but I do believe your number is high.If a boat loan is even a 1/2 % higher than a home loan you'd be amazed what that costs you over the course of the loan.I seriously doubt it would only be 1/2% higher though.We can all sit here and go back and forth all we want,the bottom line is that I'm sure a boat will be cheaper than a house,but as I stated earlier,if you don't invest the savings you'll be no better off.If you seriously want a house you're a handyman,I've made a lot of money flipping houses,you could flip houses then go on the boat in between,best of both worlds.Its all up to what you want,there's money to be made in Real Estate if you want it,I'm not saying its easy,but its there if you want it.If you're looking for cheap living go on the boat.


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## Rapp (Nov 16, 2014)

christian.hess said:


> hhhmm is that a new thing? I had them in berkeley...cant remember if that was part of the coverage or not


All insurance companies are different where they're allowed to be,some will insure certain things others won't.Unless stipulated by the State laws that govern them,they can do as they please.In past years a lot of them have gotten burnt in certain areas ie hurricanes etc and have stopped covering certain areas and types of ins.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> hhhmm is that a new thing? I had them in berkeley...cant remember if that was part of the coverage or not


Could be, and I am going by what has been reported here. Several people have pointed out that it is specifically excluded in there policies. It very well could be state specific. I have used them for car insurance, and have not found them to be any worse than most insurance companies but not great either. I was not really happy with how they handed a claim for hail damage on my care, but they were fast in processing, just did not really pay enough to cover the damage. I believe one of the benefits of using them is that they generally don't require a survey. Living aboard is one of those tough things, as how would they even know? But it could be used to refuse to pay a large claim, even though they were happy to take your monthly payment. So it is best to read the policy as much as you can understand. The language is often intentionally confusing and vague.


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## Rapp (Nov 16, 2014)

miatapaul said:


> Could be, and I am going by what has been reported here. Several people have pointed out that it is specifically excluded in there policies. It very well could be state specific. I have used them for car insurance, and have not found them to be any worse than most insurance companies but not great either. I was not really happy with how they handed a claim for hail damage on my care, but they were fast in processing, just did not really pay enough to cover the damage. I believe one of the benefits of using them is that they generally don't require a survey. Living aboard is one of those tough things, as how would they even know? But it could be used to refuse to pay a large claim, even though they were happy to take your monthly payment. So it is best to read the policy as much as you can understand. The language is often intentionally confusing and vague.


How would they know ? Don't underestimate Ins Cos,they have ways.I once knew an Arson Investigator,he told me they always looked for photos and family keepsakes,jewelry etc,as most people remove these things before setting their own house on fire.As far as living aboard,I think it would be quite simple,clothes for different seasons,different things stored that normally wouldn't be etc.Most people are unaware of the vacant home stipulation in their homeowners policy,if a home is vacant for more than 30 days most Ins cos want them boarded up,if not some will only pay 50% of claims.Never underestimate Ins cos,most have been around for many years and will be for many to come,they have the decks stacked in their favor and will keep it that way.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Many of the upfront costs of a home mortgage are not fees, they are taxes. Real estate taxes are paid in advance, so you have to reimburse the seller for the portion you will occupy. It can really add up. 

While not part of buying a boat, you will have marina fees. In my case, the sum of my summer and winter marina fees are almost exactly the taxes on our house.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

So, to avoid photocopying your tax returns and signing some forms for a home mortgage you are going to go through nearly the same thing for a boat loan?

What?? Just suck it up and get the mortgage.


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## bravehaarrt (Mar 26, 2013)

denverd0n said:


> You need to learn how to shop for a mortgage. I just went through refinancing my home in Florida. Just over $100k. Cost me less than $500 total. If the fees you are quoting above are really the best that you can find then, no offense, I have to assume that you have VERY bad credit and almost no down payment. If those assumptions are true, you probably won't be able to get a boat loan at all--at any price. If those assumptions are not true, then there is absolutely no reason to pay that much for a home loan.
> 
> Bottom line, again, getting a boat loan is neither easier, nor less expensive, than getting a home loan. Most of the time it is both more difficult and more expensive.
> 
> Good luck, whatever you end up doing.


No offense taken. It's just business. Having said that ~ Did you have to pay for a flood cert, Lenders title insurance, credit report fee, title abstract, closing fee, Alt A Endorsements 9 and 4.1, Owners Title ins, credit report fee, survey, recording charge, courier fee, mortgage recording charge, 3 different Clerk of the court fees and appraisal? And if you got all that for 500 bucks I sincerely want to talk to your people.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

State laws for most things aren't the same. What's required for a mortgage or other business contract can be very different--unless you live in the same zip code.

Not to mention the games lender may play. Even the national banks, who ought to know better, sometimes require "their own" forms, even when state laws say no, you'll accept the state standard form or be liable for the consequences and costs of refusing to do so.

Games.

And while Progressive has many happy customers (doesn't every insurer?) I did call them once and ask about agreed cash value coverage. Oh yes, they'd gladly sell it to me. And then after I got to chatting with the rep for a while, he conceded they would sell me ACV, charge me for ACV, but if it came to a payout? The fine print on the policy would say "ACV or market value" which ever is less which can lead to a long argument about what market value is or isn't. Some states also define "market value", some may not. 

Did I mention, Games?


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Most of the fees that you mention are negotiable. But if your down payment is minute and your credit poor, then no one is going to be willing to negotiate anything. That's the nature of the beast. And it applies to boat loans AT LEAST as much as to home mortgages.

That said, both lenders title insurance AND owners title insurance!?! No. You only need title insurance once. Anyone who tells you otherwise is jerking you around. And three different clerk of the court fees? What the heck sort of home are you trying to buy? My house is only in one county. Is yours in three!?! By the way, no clerk of the court cares about appraisals, so I don't know where you got the idea that you had to pay for three appraisals.

Frankly, it sounds like you are trying to work an extremely complicated and unusual sort of home purchase. Yeah, well, obviously that's going to mean more paperwork and expense than an "ordinary" home purchase. Flood insurance is a fact of life in Florida if you want a home on the water, and it is not cheap, but neither is it particularly difficult to arrange.

And yet once again... A boat loan is neither less expensive, nor less complicated, than a home loan. Unless of course you are comparing a plain vanilla boat loan to a complicated and extremely unusual sort of home purchase deal. Apples to oranges comparisons like that are hardly instructive of anything.

Believe what you want and, of course, do what you want. I can tell you now that you simply are not going to convince me that borrowing against a boat is a way to avoid the complications and expenses of a home mortgage. I have done both, and the home mortgages have all been less expensive and less complicated--especially when you look at the long-term, total expenses of both.


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## bravehaarrt (Mar 26, 2013)

denverd0n said:


> Most of the fees that you mention are negotiable. But if your down payment is minute and your credit poor, then no one is going to be willing to negotiate anything. That's the nature of the beast. And it applies to boat loans AT LEAST as much as to home mortgages.
> 
> That said, both lenders title insurance AND owners title insurance!?! No. You only need title insurance once. Anyone who tells you otherwise is jerking you around. And three different clerk of the court fees? What the heck sort of home are you trying to buy? My house is only in one county. Is yours in three!?! By the way, no clerk of the court cares about appraisals, so I don't know where you got the idea that you had to pay for three appraisals.
> 
> ...


Well I really appreciate all the wisdom. I'm going to have to go back over the 12 houses I built, bought, rented, sold and noted over the last 29 years to see where I went wrong.


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## Johnniegee (Oct 13, 2014)

What is a settlement fee? Only have owned 1 house but refi'ed it a couple of times to put the kids through collage.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Settlement fees/costs are better known as closing costs. Creating confusion, some are actually fees, like attorney's or bank fees. Others are just reimbursing the seller for real estate taxes or homeowners fees they paid in advance, but the buyer will occupy the property during the period covered.

Knowing most have no choice but to refinance their homes to pay for their kid's education, I understand it. At least the product purchased with the debt should have benefit over the life of the loan. However, this relatively easy access to large sums of cash is a major contributing reason that higher ed was able to get away with raising costs far in excess of inflation. 

We debate whether one should borrow money for a boat, but everyone feels debt for college is worth it. It may be, but the debt is fuel on the demand side of supply/demand. When demand can pay more, supply raises it's prices. On the flip side, take all debt out of the boat market and prices will decline for everyone. That means your boat is worth less and some manufacturers just stop making them altogether.


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> Knowing most have no choice but to refinance their homes to pay for their kid's education, I understand it. At least the product purchased with the debt should have benefit over the life of the loan. However, this relatively easy access to large sums of cash is a major contributing reason that higher ed was able to get away with raising costs far in excess of inflation.


That and the fostered conception that a college degree is some kind of badge of minimal competence at life and employability.


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## derekschott (Mar 12, 2015)

Just joined the forum and this threat caught my eye. I currently plan to purchase a liveaboard boat in about 3-5 years when I decide to retire. Am curious how hard that will be to finance such an item. Will probably plan to keep the girlfriends house for 3-4 months out of the year.

Is it really that hard these days to get a loan for a boat when it will be your primary residence. I am so unfamiliar with the process it is scary.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I am not in the "never borrow to buy a boat" crowd. There are circumstances where it makes sense and those where it doesn't.

Having any debt in retirement is not a great idea. Unless, for example, you are wealthy enough to pay cash, but are leveraging a large investment portfolio with unrealized gains you don't want to pay taxes on or there is a big windfall coming shortly that you are bridging.

A lenders issue with living aboard is generally the wear and tear and impact on value. This can be cured by having a large enough downpayment that the loan won't ever get near the value of a depreciating boat. Look for a local lender that specializes in boat loans and talk to them, if it makes sense for you to have debt at all.

Welcome to SN.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"when I decide to retire. "
Bear in mind that when you retire, your income normally will drop because you are no longer employed. Lenders may be more reluctant to lend money to someone who is now "unemployed" even if they have other income and assets.
This could be a good time to speak to some loan officers or other folks in the know, at your local bank, or credit union, or other potential lender. If you are 60+ there is often a free "eldercare" center complete with free financial advisor who will be familiar with social security and pension issues, there are usually some surprises in terms of how your medical coverage and costs will change, and your "new" incomes versus tax changes that affect them in retirement. Give them the facts and see what they advise is best. And given that loan rates are still near their lowest right now--it might even pay for you to get the boat sooner rather than later.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

Right now it is difficult to finance a liveaboard. However, if you have your GF's house then that might make a difference.

It is pretty much impossible to predict what the financial market will look like 3-5 years from now or if this is something that you will even follow through on.

Why not buy something smaller now and see if the reality lives up to the romance? Sadly, It often doesn't.


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