# Dream of Sailing as a living



## oceanguy (May 21, 2003)

Now I am a long way off from reaching my dream; still have to learn to, and get a boat, for one. But I have no clue as to what kind of costs to expect at Marinas, maintenance, and just general living. But from what I hear, it is a small fortune. Short of having ALOT of money saved up, what can you do to earn money as you sail? I hear chartering is already a packed industry.

Also, if you know of any good books, non-fiction prefered, that cover all the aspects of long-term cruising and good destinations, please drop a line. Thank you.


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## oceanguy (May 21, 2003)

I also ask for some opinions on a boat good for long-term cruising. I''ve been looking at a C420 and 470, but like I said...I''m rather new and not quite sure what to look for in a good boat. It would need to accomadate 2-3 people, as I do have a fiancee just as eager as I am to live that dream.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

A couple quick thoughts here, I am not sure that there are easy ways to make a living while cruising. I guess one way to produce income while cruising would be to develop a good set of boat husbandry skills. Refrigeration and engine repair skills are needed almost anywhere that cruisers gather. Marine Electricians can usually find work easily. Good marine carpenters can usually find paying projects of varying types. Even refinishing skills will yield some income while cruising. I suggest that you try to get a copy of Anne Hill''s book, "Voyaging on a Small Income" for other ideas. 

In terms of a ''good boat'' I have a couple suggestions here. First of all, asking "what to look for in a good boat" is a little like asking "how long is a piece of string". We each develop our own set of goals and priorities for what we want out of a boat and that some what shapes what each of defines as important criteria for selecting a boat for ourselves. 

For example, in my case I wanted a boat that would be easy to single-hand or cruise long distances with two people on board but comfortable with a small group (maybe 4 or 5 people) for a weekend. I wanted a boat that was optomized as a coastal cruiser but which I could take offshore. I wanted a boat that offered good performance in both extremes of heavy and light air. I wanted a boat that could be raced at the club level but which was optomized as a cruiser. I am very much into the engineering of a boat and had certain structural criteria that I felt needed to be met. I had a limited budget (under $50K) for the size and type of boat (38 feet) that I ultimately bought. 

Those were my criteria and so would not be everyone''s ideal but I mention them as an example of the kinds of criteria one might set for themselves.

There was a very recent long discussion on the merits of Catalina''s that included a long list of happy Catalina owners praising their boats and some counterpoints as well, so I will not talk to the specific issues of the Catalina other than to suggest that you look for that recent thread. 

I will say that Catalinas, like Hunters and to a lesser extent like Beneteaus are optomized as good family coastal cruisers. (Beneteau makes a number of model lines, so while most Beneteaus that are seen in the US are similar in intent to Catalinas or Hunters, Beneteau also makes more specialized lines that are more biased toward racing and other lines that are optomized as offshore boats.) While boats built by the big three builders (Beneteau, Hunter and Catalina) are certainly taken offshore that clearly does not appear to be their intended purpose. 

This is not to be viewed as an automatic bad thing. Coastal cruising places different demands on a boat than offshore cruising. Coastal cruisers need to be able to quickly adapt to changing winds and currents, they need to be more versatile sailors. Offshore boats are often deeper for a more comfortable motion, coastal boats are often shallower to sail in shallow venues. Coastal cruisers often optomize openess and lounging areas while Offshore boats often optomize storage areas and have tighter passages and berths so that you are not thrown about and berths and galleys that are set up to be comfortable at all angles of heel and pitch. Coastal boats need really good ventilation; offshore boats should have small portlights, ports, and hatches. Coastal boats should have large open comfortable cockpits,while offshore boats should have smaller cockpits with big drains. Every aspect of a boat can and ideally should vary between a boat aimed at coastal cruising vs a boat aimed at offshore work. 

So in order to advise you properly you need to know what you want to do with sailing. To do so, you really need to spend as much time on the water sailing as many different kinds of boats as you can. After a while you will learn what you like and dislike in a boat. 

I will tell you that to get that kind of experience you really should to learn to sail well and I will also tell you that it is way harder (if not imposible) to learn to sail well on boats of the size and type implied by the C420 and C470. These are big boats and so feel is pretty minimal compared to smaller sized boats. I would suggest that you learn to sail on boats that are maybe 23 to 30 feet in length (with 23 to 26 or so being most ideal), with a tiller, a fin keel and a spade rudder. These tend to be more responsive and show give you more feed back on what you are doing right or wrong. I would suggest that perhaps you consider buying a small keel boat to learn on. Small, older boats make a great platform to learn to sail on and practice boat owning skills. They can be bought with minimal investment and if cared for properly can often be sold for close to what you have in them especially if you do not go hog wild trying to make them into something that they are not namely a new boat. 

I will also tell you that there are a lot of cruisers who have sailed many successful miles who are really not very good sailors. They understand basic sail trim and boat handling but really do not understand in any depths how to properly trim sails for speed and comfort. That is not meant as put down. Like I said, we all come to sailing with our own goals and priorities and I don''t fault someone for not caring about developing sailing skills. 

If you do chose to learn to sail well, you are more likely to be invited to sail with people and so get the kind of experience that it takes to learn what is right for you. More likely than not you will find that a 42 to 47 is really very big boat for 2 or 3 people, but then again there is no one right answer here,so you may decide that this is the perfect size range for what you have in mind. 

Jeff


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

I concur with just about everything Jeff wrote. I think he articulated the conundrum between good off shore vessel and good coastal cruiser. Lets face it, sooner or later you are going to end up somewhere after crossing an ocean and when you do, you''ll want some of those coastal cruiser features when you get there. That "romper room" area I can make out of the port settee is great at anchor with kids on board, but would I want that at 30 Deg and 15 foot seas? What might makes my boat (C36) a great coastal cruiser may be a liability when on the open ocean for a long time. I understand that the big saloon and cockpit could be a liability, but that doesn''t mean one can''t blue water sail with it (as many have) You just have to be prepared and maybe make a few modifications, like easy access handholds & braces below. Also If I was blue water sailing for any length of time a smallish pilot berth would be great. It would allow you to sleep like a bug in a rug, even in heavy seas. In general Catalinas don''t come with Pilot berths (just like many boats) but you could easily rig up bunk lee cloths and make something work. Different features for different cruising.

A few other points you mention a C420 and C470. Do you mean C42? Catalina doesn''t make a C420 model, the C42 is a traditionally designed boat with lots of space and has quite a few people cruising on them. In fact, they are a decent "value priced" (hate that term) cruising type boat, with a good track record. I would think this nears the average upper limit size on what I think would be ideal for 2 people cruising. The C470 (and this is just my personal feeling) is just a big overgrown Coastal Cruiser thats more aimed at luxury Coastal Cruising than true blue water passagemaking. Don''t get me wrong, it can make a passage. And it has more amenities and luxuries than most Americans live with (it can even come with a washer and dryer). But I think if I had that kind of money there would be many other boats I would chose from.

Plus if you are even considering a C470, then I am amazed that you are even concerned about easy ways to make a living while cruising. My feeling is if you can afford a C470 then skip it and purchase a well founded C42 (or similar boat) and take the extra $150 and go cruising for years !


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## staceyneil (Nov 4, 2000)

oceanguy,
jeff makes some great points. i highly suggest that you get the book, "The Cruising handbook''" by Nigel Calder. he has a wonderful discussion about what to look for in a good cruising boat, complete with checklists to take with you when looking at boats. We found this book invaluable when we were first starting our boat search. it also has lots and lots about cruising, navigation, boat systems, etc. A GREAT book.
You might also want to read the classics like "Desirable and Undesirable characteristics of Offshore Yachts". I have a stack of good books to suggest to you but they are all at home, where i am not right now. Send me an email and I''ll give you titles and authors: [email protected]

Have fun!!!
Stacey
www.sailnamaste.com


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## oceanguy (May 21, 2003)

I thank you both for your input, especially on what to look for between offshore and coastal cruisers. Yes I did mean a C42, gotta love the blissfulness of ignorance. That is the model we are leaning towards...but everyone loves to aim for the "big boy". Jeff, I''m amazed that you found a boat of that size for $50k...I''ve been looking and have not found anything under $100k for a 42ft. I imgaine that this being larger than the one you got had something to do with it. My needs would be to have a boat that can cross blue water, but primarily be a coastal cruiser, and can hold comfortably 2-3 people for long amounts of time. And from what you say the C42 can handle herself. Are there any other models that would be good for this. 

As you can tell I am new, but do want to learn. In reference as to how much I want to learn...I want to be competant...I want to get good. I''m not talking excellent, but be able to hold my own. 

No I am not independently wealthy, but very good at saving and investing. I just wanted to know of ways to make a buck as you sail, just in case.

Thank you for your knowledge, and thank you for answering my questions, though I know you''ve answered ones like them many times.


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## oceanguy (May 21, 2003)

Thanks Stacey, I will do that.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

you could always fish for money, even though commercial fishing somewhat discusts me.


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## oceanguy (May 21, 2003)

Jeff,
It''s an interesting thought, but I imagine every other sea dog and family can fish/shrimp/crab. But if I do see a demand, it definitely is an option. thanks.

Chris


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## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

Sorry to hijack the thread agian, but you have inspired me. 

The posts on Coastal vs Blue Water pin pointed my delema precisley. I have, for the most part, the desire to do coastal cruising... with the delema that the coasts I want to cruise along are seperated by incredibly large oceans  

So, what specific boats pop to mind when thinking of doing that? for myself, ones in the smaller (read: less expensive) area''s would be apreciated, although I''m sure other people would like to know as their size requirements vary. 

I know it can be done in anything, but to do it well? There is the fall back of course of my current goal, the west coast triton, which I am hoping to purchase in the next 2 or 3 years, after I have deemed myself ready to move up from my little Josie, which I know people do cross oceans and enjoy coastal cruising in, but I do like other ideas as well. 

I''ve also been looking at the Badger, but have yet to sail on a dory, and truth be told, yet to hear kind words about their sailing ability from anyone I know.  

But for a small boat for coastal cruising, but with intent to sporadicly cross oceans, (I know, the horror of compromise, whoa is me) what boats would you experts look at? (once agian preferably in the smaller (cheap) range) 

And to try to contribute to the actual thread a little; I am in the process (for the past few years) of setting up a web hosting company with a friend. He is learning to do the maintenance, and I am creating the system, and writing all the custom software. I have worked from the road as a software designer before, with a laptop. I work as I can, and every few weeks, pop in and drop my latest creation back on them, and get feedback from the previous version for revisions. Likewise, if you''re willing to take small breaks in your cruising, depending on where you are, many previously third world countries are diving into the tech world head first, and need geeks with skills. 

Thanks agian. 

-- James


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

James
It''s your life to risk if you wish but if I were going to be making crossing to do coastal crusing I would do so in a boat made for blue water. have you checked the Pacific Seacraft line of boats? Each one from the Flica thru The Voyagemaker are built with blue water in mind. There are others just as good but for my life and money I would go that way...


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## oceanguy (May 21, 2003)

Jeff & James,

James, I''d stay away from Pacific Seacraft if you don''t want to pay a heafty price. You can buy two Beneteau 42cc''s for one 42ft P.S. And from what I''ve read (since I can''t find anyone on here willing to answer my questions on them) the 42cc''s are great bluewater boats. Just type it in a web search and you can find lots of articles from third parties, to parties with an investment in it, and they both say the same thing; it is well designed and great for both coastal cruising and bluewater (it''s designed for bluewater though, to make Jeff happy). The price for a new one is about $185k at a sailaway readiness. Great standard features. Since it is a new designed I really couldn''t tell you used prices, but in a couple years, you might be able to find a couple 5 yrs old ones on sale, for maybe 1/4 the price. That''s what I''m planning to do. If anyone got any other ideas, please tell...I''m a humble person.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

There are lots of good cruising boats out there. Practical Sailor has a two volume set of boats they recommend.

PS are great boats, but the new ones are not really set up for long term cruising. Almost all new boats are built for the weekend sailor or short term cruiser. 

I bought a Mariner 39 CC two years ago. This boat is 21 years old and in great condition. It is blue water proven having sailed from Florida to Tahiti, Alaska and Peru. The first owners lived on the boat for 18 years. Its layout is ideal for cruising, plenty of space. I went and looked at all the new boats at the St Pete boatshow last year and quite frankly would not trade my boat for any of the new ones.

And the cost was only $75,000 with no major refitting required.

So be willing to look long and hard. There are great boats out there.

Tony


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Oceanguy,

I''d like to highlight what I consider to be the two most important pieces of sage advice in this thread:

Jeff H''s remarks are right on the money: take the time to learn to sail first on a small keelboat that will actually teach you what you''re doing. You''ll become a better sailor faster, and weekending will give you a small taste of "cruising." You can always sell it later.

A 42-47 footer is a lot of boat to sail short-handed, especially if you haven''t taken time to develop your skill on a smaller boat. If you set your sights on a LOA (length-over-all) somewhere in the the middle or upper 30-foot range, you will still have plenty of room for 3 people (it''s a boat, not an apartment) and save tons of cash that you can use to refurbish whatever needs attention.

Effort required to sail the boat and hours performing maintenance increase exponentially as the length of the boat increases incrementally. This will afffect everything from changing/reefing sails while underway to bottom-painting to hours of scraping/sanding, & varnishing, etc. All the ground tackle (anchors, chain, etc.) will by necessity be larger, heavier & more difficult to manage, and/or require electric windlasses, etc., which increases the complexity of your systems and charging requirements.

The list goes on&#8230;


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

One minor point, I would say that "Effort required to sail the boat and hours performing maintenance increase exponentially as the ''displacement and to a lesser extent length'', of the boat increases incrementally." It is my sense that displacement rather than length that really controls so much more about size of the boat in terms of sail area,ease of handling, maintenance costs etc.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Consider the Catalina Morgan 440*

We love ours. It has so many features that we wanted in a cruising boat. We won't get to sail away for a few years to come, but when we do, our 440 is the one for us!

There's a brand new owners site now.

It's up and running!

catalina440 dot org

Good luck on your decision.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I think that since the thread you just woke up from the dead is from 2003, the guy already decided....

But...we never know...some people are real slow deciders....


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## RandyonR3 (Oct 2, 2005)

Theres something that the trail of this thread has left behind but as any person out there cruising knows well. maintence and the ability to do such is a major part in choosing the boat you plan on sailing.
Awhile back a good friend of mine said they should change the name from Cruising to "REPAIRING YOUR BOAT IN EXOTIC PORTS"
From the time we purchased our boat, some 4 or 5 years ago, we've replaced almost every piece of moving parts on the boat. understand the retro-fit was our choice as we brought a mid 80s vintage FIRST 42 up to newer standards.. and every part of the boat, I've done the repair or replacement myself. Not bragging, but stating a fact.. Parts break and if you want to cruise at a low cost, you have to do the repair yourself, so find a boat or size that you can manage by yourself.
As boat type, we chose a proven race design, the designs (when built) were state-of-the-art, The materials were the newest and strongest avalible. the hull was designed fast and strong and the rigging built to withstand the riggors of offshore racing for multiple days at a time. we will never as cruisers put the boat through half the load the racers would have put on it... Its strong, its fast, its comfortable, and sails like its running on tracks... 
If your looking for a boat to cruise with.. take a good look at what people are using these days, and not what people are dreaming of..
The reality of it, people are using what they can, and they make it work.
Like the guy who sailed the hollowed out log from Panama to the South Pacific.. With a 5 gallon bucket of granola and a couple jugs of water!


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

oceanguy said:


> Short of having ALOT of money saved up, what can you do to earn money as you sail? I hear chartering is already a packed industry.


One seldom used way to earn money is to not spend the money you already have.

A penny saved is a penny earned.

Except a penny saved is actually a lot more than a penny earned. Every penny you earn gets taxed anywhere from 30% on up depending on what country you are in, so it's really only 70% of a penny by the time you get it. Whereas a penny saved is not only a penny saved but also a penny generating interest, so it is in effect a SUPER PENNY that will feed you if you save all of it's cousins too. Saved pennies are very grateful.

This method of saving money and generating interest is virtually unknown in the United States where a penny saved is only collateral to use in borrowing large sums of money.



> Also, if you know of any good books, non-fiction prefered, that cover all the aspects of long-term cruising and good destinations, please drop a line. Thank you.


"Voyaging on a Small Income" by Annie Hill, ISBN 1-888671-37-8

Definitely non-fiction.


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## brianbsalty (Nov 11, 2007)

*long cruise -- desired in the next few years*

Hi, Everyone ! 
I am new to this site, I am also new to the sailing world(not totally) . Though I am not unfamiliar with the open water . I have spent my fair share weeks COMMERCIAL FISHING . I am living in the out skirts of New Orleans, Louisiana now . Now days I run a construction small(small company big head aches) . Since the hurricanes in 2005 I have managed to pay off my house I lived in before and purchase in full the one I am living in now(nothing fancy just home). In the mean time I bought a boat it's a, 44 gulf star ketch . I have now got this burning desire to get as far away from this place as possible(no offence to home town) I just want to see so much of the world . My number one desire is to sail to the Philippines . I am just worried about cost of living ! I would like some in put on this once gone I wound not have any income though I am sure that I would rent both my homes out . I am still not sure if that would be enough income to survive . Another thing that has me pondering is the threat of "Pirates at Sea" some of my freinds tell me that if I plan on traveling I better travel along with several boats because solo is unsafe in the open waters . I know I am new to this so any advise will be taken in full


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I know several people that make their living from sailing. Some work primarily as instructors... others work as delivery captains or crew. Some work in the boating business—not as sailors, but as tradespeople—electricians, plumbers, fiberglass repair, etc.


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