# What does "too old to sail mean"?



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Most sailors begin their sailing in early or mid life... some even late in life. Sailing and the life associated with sailing become normal for committed sailors. Some even live aboard and give up land on dirt.

Boats can be maintained and repaired and kept in sea worthy and even bristol condition. But sailors can't. Sailors age and with age their "systems" decline... they lose muscle strength, lose range of motion on their joints, their eye sight and hearing decline... they may even experience balance problems. Agility declines. The mind usually remains sharp and even wiser, though age means loss of short term and even long term memory. These are all things sailors need to sail. Wearing glasses is hardly a barrier to sailing. 

But what are the barriers to sailing that we inevitably face? How to sailors adjust to the deficits associated with aging of their bodies? Perhaps no more single handing? Sail only in fair weather? Use more power assisted mechanical devices... windlass, winches, roller furling, furling mains....

What will cause a sailor to end his sailing? Or owning a boat? How does one make this decision? Is there a ramp down? Or does one simply take a tally and simply stop? How does one prepare for being a sailor who can no longer sail or feels comfortable and safe sailing?

How many even think about the final act?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

A bit melancholy


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

Chesapeake Region Accessible Boating (CRAB) strives to make sailing accessible to people with disabilities of all types. I had an elderly friend who came to his boat in a wheelchair and raced it, often winning. He sailed it in and out of it's slip, without a motor. If you have a disability, you find a "workaround" that enables you to do whatever you enjoy doing. 

Some skippers don't want old folks for crew. The first time I crew on an unfamiliar boat, I know that I'll have to demonstrate that I can contribute meaningfully to the sailing of the boat in order to be invited back. That isn't really difficult to do, because younger crew often neglect some of the "fine points", such as skirting the jib after each tack. If you show that you're thinking about such things, you'll likely be invited back. 

As long as you're reasonably ambulatory, and sentient, and have friends who are willing to contend with your disabilities, I see no reason why one can't continue sailing until the last day of one's life. Many have done it.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

We live aboard 6 months. And sail our small boat in the summer in Newfoundland. 

This is a question in my mind a lot. So far so good. Just turned 68, I’ll let you know when I grow up.

More seriously I thought I knew the answer pretty clearly last week. I took a bad fall, got my feet tangled on the staysail boom on the hook. I rolled and went down flat on my back, across the hand rails, my head just missing the toe rail. 

On my way down I could mentally see my head splitting like a Gallagher mellon. I just KNEW my life was done, then I heard my back cracking as it bent over the hand rails. 

When I came to I went through a mental reboot and to my amazement everything came back online with only some stiffness in my back for a few days. 

So maybe that’s the answer, we go on as long as we want until something stops us. What? When? Ah, now there are some questions.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

I've posted this before, a friend, one of my hero's passed in his 90's. He had a 42' traditional yawl. In mast hood furl main and roller furling jib. He kept his boat about 20 miles sailing distance away from his home dock for the winter. Every year I offered to go with him to deliver the boat for winter storage and to bring it back. He always refused, because he wanted to single hand it even in his 90's. I was always worried about him. I know some will say it was irresponsible.

As I get older, I understand.

He said, rig your boat for geriatric sailing and keep going as long as you can. Not everyone hits the geriatric health lottery like my friend did, but staying active doesn't hurt. The day you can't will be the day you ask yourself why you didn't do it when you could.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

There are so many ways to come at your query Sander. I’ve typed four responses so far, and erased all b/c they sound silly or trite. 

The only answer which makes any sense to me is: we all do the best we can with what we have. It’s simply the reality of living. After all, none of us are getting out of here alive.

We all have physical, and mental, limits, no matter what the age. Living means change. So we adapt until we can’t. At that point we make a big change, or we make a big mistake. Either way, problem solved .


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Loss of balance is the only real deal killer I can see - the other failings can be overcome.

Hell, blind people have singlehanded across oceans.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Completely up to each of us.

I'd rather die at sea even unpleasantly, than on land.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Great question. 

Being my mid sixties now, before now really never thought of an end game. Till this year

Haleakala has been mine for 25 years or so. sailing has been in my blood and psyche since I’ve been 10.
Raced Hobies competitively nation a lot in my early 20s . 
Crewed on two trips across the pond before I hit 30. 
Bought my first keel boat at 28.
Helped with east coast deliveries in the Carribean 
Sailed extensively since I've owned Haleakula in the Chesapeake and Long Island Sound areas. 
No end of sailing till this year when I was forced to have surgery on my back. 
It definitely mde me think...suppose I cant physically sail anymore. 

My passion and love for sailing has not waned. My love of the water is no less. My boat fits like a glove and is an old familiar friend. My wife and I have and continue to make memories and friends on the water. We love our experiences. 

Retirement not may happen as soon s this summer or it certainly will be soon. We are looking for an end house to purchase somewhere less crowded. I will not give up sailing unless I am physically not able to anymore.

HOWEVER, I still feel there is more to do than sail for me/ us. I can see us buying a land yacht ( travel trainer of 35 ft) and expkiing the US and Canada. Already I've been in all 50 states but even though married 14 years, as he has no. She has willingly embraced sailing and loves our time on the water and the upkeep of Haleakula. 

There is more to life than the water. Much beauty in our country to see. Many rich cultures, great cuisine and spectacular vistas to see RVing Has some similarities as sailing and has lot to do in nature which we both enjoy. With Haleakula long paid for,I see no need to give it up to do the RV land thing.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

This is something I've been thinking about lately. I'm noticing my eyesight is just not as good as it used to be particularly the night vision. I start reminiscing about solo sailing at night and the spring and fall as the temperature drops and things begin to get cold and uncomfortable. I'm not sure I want to relive those days as I get older. Needing glasses every time I want To look at the chart or chartplotter is a constant reminder things have changed too. With the boat now in the boatyard for the winter I find myself being more careful as I move around the deck. It's a long way down to the ground should I stumble over the life lines as I work on the boat over the winter. I'm still fairly healthy but as far as getting up and moving around I know I am not as agile as I used to be. 

I'm also finding less reason to be uncomfortable when sailing. Since I have done a lot of cruising in the Northeast U.S. I am having less and less desire to revisit places I've already been like Block Island , Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard etc... Though a solo circumnavigation around Long Island still is in my plans at some point. Part of me would would also like to recreate the trip up the Hudson River, Erie and Oswego Canals to Toronto Canada I made back in the 90’s now that I have a quiet electric propulsion system for motoring those waters instead of the noisy diesel I originally used. These days I find that a 2 hour sail to a nearby harbor or anchorage followed by a few days of hanging out on the hook provides the same satisfaction as the longer passages I used to make in my younger days. I don't see an end to my sailing days anytime soon but my needs and desires have certainly changed as I have gotten older.


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

This is something I think about often as I took to sailing later in life and I want to cruise, which may often be solo. I think balance and metal health issues are the big ones. Now that I see my mother's quick decline at 87, along with her denial of this decline, I now wonder how I will make these decisions on my own. I always said I never want to grow old if it means infirm and in bed, but sailing off into the eternal sunset with my family not knowing what happened is not the end scenario that I want either....

Conversely, when I moved onto my boat a couple years ago, I noticed diminished strength in one leg trying to make it up the steep transom steps if I didn't also do a little pull from the stanchion railing. I now step up easily on either leg with no cheating. The more I sail, the more I notice that balance and overall strength are better, too. When I got back into competitive swimming back in my 40s, my doctor told me he saw no decline in my VO2max, which is expected to decline with age, and had been trending that way during my 30s. Lung capacity was clearly positively affected by strenuous exercise. More and more studies are showing that if you keep using it, you won't be losing it as fast. Chronological age is not the same as biological age: https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-is-biological-age-2223375


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I’m thinking sailing is like some other thing we love dearly: if you can still get the sail up, do it. You just might have to go slow and easy, no hot dogging. And when you can’t, you just stare at those slick sailing magazines and videos, or stare at the sea and think of all the fun you were lucky to have.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I have had excellent health all my life. I was only in hospital to be born and then finally in April for a major spine surgery. Recovery has been very very slow, unnoticeable at times and it is a preview of loss of mobility, motion agility and balance. If your nerves are not working correctly your legs can keep you balanced. It changes from something automatic to something that requires your attention. Strength in sailing can be overcome with electric winches and so on. I got the Millie to hoist the main 4 years ago because it was no fun hauling up 440SF w/ 4 full length battens.

What occurred to me is the there is little to not improvement when one experiences a decline. Your vision will not return, nor your hearing and so on... they only get worse. Same with your strength, range of motion and so on. You have to make mental adjustments and compensate for your physical decline. Activity is good, but it will not remove your deficits.

You can still sail but not as "aggressively"... and considering that your knocked off most of your sailing bucket list... and have nothing to prove to yourself... you can find a sweet spot for sailing. But some things... become undoable. Take climbing aboard from the dock. I used to think nothing about jumping down to the dock and pulling myself up from the dock to deck with both leg and arm strength. These now seems like things I can't do as I once did. I will order a SailStep.

It's no fun when your body stops working the way it had for your whole life. But really... Shiva mostly sails by herself... and I don't do much but set an AP course... unfurl the genny and trim it... do some easy peasy electonic navigation and enjoy. As long as she takes care of me... We can sail! And sail we will!


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

For those with declining vision, please look into cataract surgery and laser correction. I had both on both my eyes and my vision is now the best it has ever been. I no longer need corrective lenses to drive and am usually the first on the boat to see marks. I only need reading glasses. Most of the cost is covered by medicare. There's no pain, very minimal discomfort, and you can be back at work the next day. There is some risk, as with any procedure, but it's minimized if you conscientiously follow the prescribed eye drop regimen afterwards.


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

One stated solution pointed out previously is more power gadgets, winches, furlers, etc. So what happens when you are old and weak and the giant headsail power mechanism jams in a big blow?
We feel more comfortable on our smaller craft...systems are simple and relatively easy to manage.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Eh? What's that he's saying?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Yesterday is...yesterday.
Think today and tomorrow.
How will you execute....then do. That is you...now
If depression knocks, its time to move on some task or new mission....stay ahead.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

hpeer said:


> We live aboard 6 months. And sail our small boat in the summer in Newfoundland.
> 
> This is a question in my mind a lot. So far so good. Just turned 68, I'll let you know when I grow up.
> 
> ...


Wow you were lucky. Glad you were able to get off the boat on your own. I'm certainly more cautious these days when moving about on the boat when it is on the hard than at the mooring. I imagine myself tripping, losing balance and hitting the ground which will be much worse than hitting the water. That scenario helps keep me focused.

I have not seen the eighty plus year old fellow who owns the boat next to mine in two years. Built the boat himself (took twenty years) had it on the water about five years. Came down with Parkinsons and can no longer climb ladders. The boat has now been for sale the past two seasons. Sad to see it deteriorating after watching him meticulously maintaining it over the years and also having built it.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

There is too old to sail alone which is different from too old to sail. We have one gent in his 80's who needs a walker or wheel chair, has a colostomy bag and is on oxygen and while he can't do the heavy work he can still sail an E-Scow competitively with a few younger folks to crew it with him. Too old to sail alone yes but not too old to skipper his boat and direct a crew. His boat is usually one of the lead boats in a race or the winner and those that crew with him feel blessed because of what they learn. 

One fellow with Parkinson's overcomes his limitations/age by crewing his boat with experienced sailors that look good in a bikini. He says he enjoys sailing now more than every before.

We are also expanding our solo handicapped sailor program that caters to paraplegics and others with mobility disorders. Just because the legs may not work as well as they used to or not at all does not mean the end of sailing just a change in how one goes about it along with the boats they sail in as long as the rest of the body and mind is up to it. The fleet of handicapped sailboats is getting larger with many who sail them elderly sailors recovering from strokes or dealing with Parkinson's.

If we are sound in mind and the list of things we can't do overwhelms us to the point that we no longer can see/accept a way to safely overcome them with what we can do then we are too infirm to continue. This could be at 25 or 95 years of age.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Maybe it means you're dead?


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

This thread has alot in common with "size for singlehandling"

As we age I wonder how a bigger boat plays into the equation of calling it quits?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

misfits said:


> This thread has alot in common with "size for singlehandling"
> 
> As we age I wonder how a bigger boat plays into the equation of calling it quits?


Smaller boats usually are not set up with powered mechanical stuff. For "able bodied" sailors smaller is easier to handle and forces are less. As you get a bigger boat you'll be needing more mechanical assists... But someone pointed out what to do when you have a mechanical failure...

There's probably a size which it makes sense to add the mechanical assists AND in a pinch when there is a failure.... a resourceful sailor will manage. And these sorts of things can be added over time. My boat came with nylon rode and no windlass. I added a hand operated SL windlass and then changed to an electric with all chain. Same boat... anchoring is easier and more secure and requires no brute strength. Same with Millie. She raises the big main. I could use the winches for more of the hoist not just the end... But the days of hauling most of the 440SF main up most of the way by hand/brute strength is now past. I sail the same boat and sail plan. Same for the roller furler... boat came with hank on sails These sorts of things allow those without lots of strength to sail what used to require more fit sailors.

I think old salt sweet spot for size is between 30' and 40'.. YMMV


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

SanderO said:


> How many even think about the final act?


Everyone, even non-sailors

My wife and I have been full time cruising for a little over 2 years now. You know how long we have been thinking of what our next thing after cruising is? It's a little over 2 years! Cruising/sailing is like pretty much like every other part of life, failing to plan is planning to fail.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Eh? What's that he's saying?


He's asking if you have been keeping your wheelchair in good condition.


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

How old is too old? I don't know yet but at 74 I can see it on the horizon.

One of the things that has kept me going is sailing multihulls. I've been on cats and tris for decades but it wasn't until I went out on a friend's racer/cruiser monohull that I realized how awkward I'd become.
Various injuries and surgeries have left the bottom half of my body relatively feeble, but I can still singlehand my cat.
She's for sale now,but only so I can buy a folding trimaran that I can dock on a trailer when I'm not using her.
Aside from that, roller furling, autopilot and an electric windlass are valuable crew on Mandolin.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Sailormon6 said:


> Chesapeake Region Accessible Boating (CRAB) strives to make sailing accessible to people with disabilities of all types. I had an elderly friend who came to his boat in a wheelchair and raced it, often winning. He sailed it in and out of it's slip, without a motor. If you have a disability, you find a "workaround" that enables you to do whatever you enjoy doing.
> 
> Some skippers don't want old folks for crew. The first time I crew on an unfamiliar boat, I know that I'll have to demonstrate that I can contribute meaningfully to the sailing of the boat in order to be invited back. That isn't really difficult to do, because younger crew often neglect some of the "fine points", such as skirting the jib after each tack. If you show that you're thinking about such things, you'll likely be invited back.
> 
> As long as you're reasonably ambulatory, and sentient, and have friends who are willing to contend with your disabilities, I see no reason why one can't continue sailing until the last day of one's life. Many have done it.


I'm certainly one of those skippers who will not take a disabled or person on lifesaving medication on an ocean crossing. Persons with cardiac problems, epilepsy or diabetes are some illnesses that I won't consider for crew positions.
There have been instances where I have denied access to a tour or passenger boat to those in a wheelchair. Most often this is when the vessel has watertight oval hatches (doors) which cannot be navigated by someone in a wheelchair alone. Most often, tourist boats do not have an extra two crew to aid the person in the wheelchair in an emergency. I'd rather be sued for denying access than for a death.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I began "simply messing about in boats" at 12. I'm now 72, and after 60 years of near-continuous living aboard and working on boats and I can say, in no uncertain terms, it was a heck of a lot more fun (and easier) when I was younger!
I am considering this question almost on a daily basis, now. Will I actually have to move ashore, closer to doctors and the like, or can I physically continue until I expire aboard? 
I can't for the life of me think of what I would do with my time if I resided ashore, but on those days when it seems one is taking two steps back on maintenance, I think how nice it would be not to have those worries.
Last season we had a couple in their 80's as guests aboard. They were amazingly active and able, which did give me some hope. 
But I'm guessing it's a very personal thing. There's a Frenchman in the Golden Globe, a single-handed, non-stop, 'round the world sailboat race. He's 73 I believe, and he's way out front! I sure have no desire to do that!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

When a Nordhaven starts looking good.

It doesn't. Yet.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

The thought of dying scares me to death. Having a hard job making out a will, know I gotta do it, but YUCK! How can the world stand to loose so much perfection?


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

capta said:


> But I'm guessing it's a very personal thing.


I think that's the crux. I discussed this subject with an officer of a major national sailing organization who had a serious heart condition, who loved ocean racing and who was looking forward, at that time, to an upcoming Bermuda race. He simply didn't consider his heart condition a factor in his decision to race. A couple years later I read that he had passed away, and I hoped he was at the helm of a fast boat during an ocean race when it happened. He'd have been OK with that.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Just keep thinking of ways to sail smarter, safer, easier. Inflatable pfd, electric winch, call ahead for help on the dock,... etc.. I think a person will get too old for repairs and maintenance work long before he can't actually sail a boat.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

yes, maybe a generalized answer might be:

when you need to spend more than you can afford in order to keep doing it


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Sailormon6 said:


> I hoped he was at the helm of a fast boat during an ocean race when it happened. He'd have been OK with that.


But would the rest of the crew and the boat, had his end come while on the helm on a spinnaker run in 25 or more knots of wind? I agree that for the person who passes it's best to be doing his favorite thing, but what of the consequences? Just like driving under the influence; it's all about the others who get drawn into the situation.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

> Originally Posted by Sailormon6:
> I hoped he was at the helm of a fast boat during an ocean race when it happened. He'd have been OK with that.





capta said:


> But would the rest of the crew and the boat, had his end come while on the helm on a spinnaker run in 25 or more knots of wind?


What makes you think he would have been at the helm in 25 kts under spinnaker? He was completely open about his heart condition, and his skippers would have been well aware of it. His primary assignments on the boat, based on his skills, would have been navigator, meteorologist and tactician.

The skipper assigns tasks to the crew. I race a lot, and thoughtful skippers don't assign tasks to crew who aren't physically up to the tasks. He might have been given the helm in moderate conditions, but only the skipper and the most able helmsmen are at the helm in the most challenging conditions.

If he had a heart attack during the race, medical aid would have been at least hours away, perhaps more. He accepted that risk, preferring it to living out his days on the couch in front of a tv. It wouldn't have endangered the boat and crew. It would have been a major inconvenience that the skipper and crew were willing to accept, so their friend and valued shipmate could continue racing with them.

Sooner or later it will happen to us all, whether we're doing what we love, or puttering around the house.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Sailormon6 said:


> What makes you think he would have been at the helm in 25 kts under spinnaker? He was completely open about his heart condition, and his skippers would have been well aware of it. His primary assignments on the boat, based on his skills, would have been navigator, meteorologist and tactician.
> 
> The skipper assigns tasks to the crew. I race a lot, and thoughtful skippers don't assign tasks to crew who aren't physically up to the tasks. He might have been given the helm in moderate conditions, but only the skipper and the most able helmsmen are at the helm in the most challenging conditions.
> 
> ...


Perhaps you are right, but it never occurred to me that a crew member on a small, unprofessional ocean racer wouldn't take his turn on the helm.
Just out of curiosity, have you ever had to deal with a dead crew member on a boat offshore? If you had, perhaps you would understand my attitude and not be so quick to criticize. It is rather unpleasant and not a boost to morale at all.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

I'm not criticizing. I'm agreeing with your thoughtful comments in post #27. The skipper has a right to decide who crews on his boat and what risks he's willing to accept. A skipper might make different choices for a 5-6 day race than for an ocean crossing. Each of us must decide what is most important to us and how we'll spend the days of our lives.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

To old to sail to me comes at the point where I have to pay people to do the upkeep on my boat as I’m no longer able.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

So, today is my birthday. 70 years old now. For some time I've been considering this question of how old is too old to sail. The answer is, of course, specific to each individual. Some of us are fortunate to be healthy, some not so much. Some of us have energy and enthusiasm, some of us, well, not so much. Some just have other things to do.

I've just lost the sight in my left eye. About two months ago, it just went all fuzzy. Imagine that! So, I've been playing around with how to go about my business with only one eye. It seems that I can do pretty much everything, although my night vision seems impaired. So, now I have to ccompensate for this physical situation. The doctors tell me that it's one of those things that happen as you get ... older. I think I'll be planning my voyages with less night sailing. My friend Hugh has been sailing all his life. He went totally blind a few years back, and now enjoys sailing as a guest on other friends' boats. He's in his 90s. So, as we get older, some of us age out of sailing just because of physical limitations. Eat well, get exercise, do all those things that help keep the body going, but the bottom line is that fate deals you a hand, and you play it the best you can. Some physical situations can be accommodated, some not so much.

A lot of what keeps us going is mental/spiritual. I love sailing. I went down to the boat today even though I have a cold. I even called the kids and told them not to come by the house tonight for the pizza party (did I mention eat well?) we had planned. I didn't want to spread germs to all the grandkids. But still, I went down to the boat. We had some really strong winds last night, and I went down to check on the boat this morning. Truthfully, I just wanted to hang out on the boat for a while. I'm down there all the time. I put up Christmas lights on Saturday, and Sunday took them down because it was a great day for a sail. Went out for a couple of hours, then came back to the dock, put the boat away and then put the light back up. Like the Wind in the Willows says, "Nothing is as good as messing around with a boat" (or something like that). The point is that some of us, probably you since you're reading this, are just crazy about boats, and love being on them. If you rest, you rust. Just like a boat falls apart if you leave it sitting, we also thrive on keeping active. Some people, like us, keep going because it answers a calling from within us. As long as that calling keeps, uh, calling... we keep sailing.

So as we age, we do have to acknowledge that we can't do everything we did when we were younger. We each decide what to keep, what to let go. I've stopped surfing short boards (I'm just too slow to do it), although I do go out on my long board and catch a few smaller waves. I gave up racing my boat last year, just too much time commitment. I was asked to join a friends boat as crew for this year, but I decided it was to much time commitment at this point. I plan (and hope) do do a lot of day sailing, and a bit of short haul cruising in the comming years. The important point, for me, is that at whatever age, I do the things I am able to do, and I do the things that I want to do.


I'll indulge myself to addressing one other point. In a precious post, one skipper discussed about not taking disabled people on ocean passages, or on some tour boats. His points were well taken. I however, had additional ideas about that. My personal experience of sailing with my brother and his granddaughter have allowed me to participate in sailing with a person with profound disabilities. She loves it, and we love being with her. Yes, it takes additional effort and preparation, but there can be joy in adapting to those challenges. An ocean passage is a huge challenge, as can be a ride on a tour boat, but for some, it's a challange that is accepted, and for them, it can be appropriate. A lot of people think that all of us are crazy danger-addicts for our voyages on small boats, so I guess I can accept that some of us crazy danger-addicts are physically able, and some not so much so. I'm OK with that previous post, and I respect the safety decisions that other skippers make, but I'm also proud of the people who push that particular boundary.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

smj said:


> To old to sail to me comes at the point where I have to pay people to do the upkeep on my boat as I'm no longer able.


Hey, that's one of the things that's nice about being older. Having the money not to *have* to do all the $hit jobs on the boat.
A few years back I finally started having the yard do my bottom and it was wonderful. Now we use professionals that we feel are competent, for a few jobs, like the outboard maintenance, sail, and canvas repairs, etc.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

you get old faster if you're poor


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

With regards to sailing with physical disabilities, there are clubs and sailboats designed specifically for this purpose. I am aware of the Martin 16. 16 ft open boat with a forward seating position, all lines lead to the helm seat, 330 pound lead keel. Very nifty, can be single handed by folks with fairly big mobility challenges, or a crew person can come along as well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_16

In terms of tour boats not carrying folks with mobility issues, many decent sized tour boats can accomodate a wheelchair ramp, and many newer ones have made it a consideration in their design specs.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

For some sailing may simply be about being in a boat that is sailing. For others it could be racing... for others it includes doing the care and maintenance... for others it is ability to cruise... including night sailing... Obviously your physical abilities will define what you can do... and that is something that DOES decline with age... and usually slowly. The decline may be even hard to notice but at some stage you simply can't do things which were second nature... done without thought and with safety.

Speaking for me and me only... and also one of the reasons I have no interest in chartering... is that sailing to me is the entire living on / with a sailboat experience. And the experience has been making the boat I sail a home and a comfortable environment. That environment is close to nature and this is very different from my life on dirt. There are many great things to do on dirt... museums and trips and concerts and dining and socializing with friends and family.

I lived aboard for about 4 years and realized that as thrilling as those experiences were, I missed the dirt stuff and so now split my time and miss sailing in the off season. Summers without sailing will be very weird for me. I did one because of recovering from surgery. Frustrating and awful. But it made me aware that if I am not physically comfortable sailing and caring for the boat... I will have to adapt and at some point stop.


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## Damon Gannon (Mar 3, 2017)

By the time many people have the means to go cruising full-time, their failing health prevents them from untying the dock lines. I've seen many dreams broken this way. So when making long-term plans to go cruising, in addition to finding the right boat, making it ready to live aboard and sail offshore, and saving money for the cruising kitty, it's really important that we take care of our health and prepare our bodies for the rigors of sailing offshore. Staying healthy and physically fit will make the sailing more enjoyable and will allow you to keep doing it for many more years.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I only wish I trusted the yard to do more work. Most of what I do, I simply don't trust them to do. On my haul checklist, I ask to have a thru-hull removed at the base of our mast, so that mast rain water will drain. I only ask them to do it, as I may not be back in time. Sure enough, they forgot. I found 2 inches of water in my bilge, when I returned and had to remove it myself. When I mentioned that they failed to do it, the Manager thought the word "failed" was too harsh. No apology. No sympathy. Just a BS story that it was still on their to-do list, over a month later. He's literally the worst customer service guy.

I just completed a major upgrade myself, after he insisted on doing the job with nuclear force, in contrast to the manufacturers instructions. I'm also having trouble with some screws backing out in my genoa furler. No other issues, just a loctite problem. His recommendation was to replace the entire system. 

So, no, paying them won't be an indication of being too old. I would gladly pay twice what I pay today, if I trusted them.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

"You are too old to clean the bottom, you must hire a diver if you wish to keep a keel boat." says the wife.
"Hmmm, I'd rather sail than clean the bottom, OK." says I
I've decided I'd rather sail than wash it every 2 weeks, or wax it, so someone else can make a little change doing that also. And thinking about it, when I was young I worked cleaning boat bottoms and topsides and brightwork to support my sailing habit so seems only fair.


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

When ones feels their health or state of mind, attributed to the aging process, no longer enables them to safely participate in the act of sailing.

Or....

If my dang kids won't put rails up on the dock so I can bounce my walker off them on the way to the boat, without ending up in the drink. ;-)


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> So, no, paying them won't be an indication of being too old. I would gladly pay twice what I pay today, if I trusted them.


There are good and bad in every trade.

This applies to both customers and service providers.

A boat owner's relationship with their marine service provider is, and should be, on equal footing.


The customer supplies the service need.

The provider supplies the service skills.

Both determine if they wish to work with the other for a defined exchange of money.

If either is not satisfied with the outcome, it is likely from the lack of their own due diligence.

If you have yet to develop a trusting relationship with any marine service provider, what is the common denominator?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

boatsurgeon said:


> There are good and bad in every trade.
> 
> This applies to both customers and service providers.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this.
A bad owner leaves the service personnel with the cost-free and non-life-threatening options of leaving the job or boat, whereas a poor service provider can cause serious or life-threatening problems for an owner, or the cost of having the poor job done properly.
After several years of using local refer & A/C techs in the VI and having disastrous consequences for my chartering, I ended up flying a tech in from Fla whenever I needed one. Cheaper and better in the long run, especially when the guests are paying upwards of 18 grand a week for an air-conditioned boat!
These days we do all our A/C & refer work ourselves as we just cannot find any competent service providers in that field anywhere in the Caribbean, nor can I afford to fly one down from the states, even if I could find a competent one there, which I doubt. 
It's a real PITA, as we must have the gauges, gas and specialized tools aboard for this job. It would be cheaper to pay someone competent rather than purchase and store those things, considering how rarely one needs these units repaired.
We boat owners are at the mercy of the service techs for those jobs we cannot do ourselves, and unfortunately, the internet has not been a great deal of help in weeding out the bad ones. Perhaps this is because so many owners are just clueless these days because they have never had competent techs or yard personnel?


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

capta said:


> I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this.
> A bad owner leaves the service personnel with the cost-free and non-life-threatening options of leaving the job or boat, whereas a poor service provider can cause serious or life-threatening problems for an owner, or the cost of having the poor job done properly.
> After several years of using local refer & A/C techs in the VI and having disastrous consequences for my chartering, I ended up flying a tech in from Fla whenever I needed one. Cheaper and better in the long run, especially when the guests are paying upwards of 18 grand a week for an air-conditioned boat!
> These days we do all our A/C & refer work ourselves as we just cannot find any competent service providers in that field anywhere in the Caribbean, nor can I afford to fly one down from the states, even if I could find a competent one there, which I doubt.
> ...


Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

It is not the internet's responsibility to weed out bad service providers any more that it is to weed out bad customers.

On the one hand, I hear some claim "It ain't brain surgery", or "rocket science"; yeah I like that one (even though the work is a craft in a science that is identical to that used on rockets).

And then a few that claim "everything is a matter of life or death". Or that a marine service tech should be as intimately familiar with every aspect of a specific vessel within 15 minutes, as the boater is after 30 years of ownership. But then if the owner doesn't know something they most definitely should, well, they're not the pro.

Seems to flip flop whenever it suits a particular argument.

I agree that an error by a marine electrical tech, an FRP tech, or a diesel tech, could end up being just as fatal as a slip of the knife by a surgeon.

As far as the claim of "no risk to the service provider" well, in my opinion that is just wrong.

Any error a service provider makes runs the risk of damaging their reputation and livelihood.

Not getting paid because an owner is a dead beat.

Invalid warranty claims.

An owner badmouthing a service provider due to the owners own fault.

These are all risks on the part of the service provider. There are many more.

I have to protect myself and my family from a rare bad customer I may accidentally accept.

A good service provider can avoid most of these by screening their prospective clients well, but unfortunately, no matter how careful, every now and again, a bad one will get through. (We have ways of dealing with this, swiftly, professionally, and courteously, like everything else we do.)


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

boatsurgeon said:


> .....If you have yet to develop a trusting relationship with any marine service provider, what is the common denominator?


What makes you say that? Are you a service provider? Maybe the one in question, it wouldn't surprise me.

I actually know yards that do a terrific job, but they are quite a long way away. I also have service providers for other avocations that I trust, because they earned it. The Bay is well known for having poor quality, unless you go to the high end Hinckley or Newport Shipyard. I may begin to do just that. If my delivery skipper hadn't passed, I would have already.

In any event, my yard is not fully incompetent. I generally know what they can and can't do. They don't, they just want to rack up the billable hours. As an amateur, I've literally done jobs in half the time their bill says it took their pro. It's ridiculous. Every client in the marina says so. They are poorly managed and the Manager needs some kind of validation, probably because he hasn't accomplished what he thought he was meant to. He has zero customer service skills and no one likes him, they have to deal with him, as he is in control.


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## walshq (Feb 10, 2012)

I'm 75 with full (but diminishing) mental and physical faculties. Have been a lifelong one design and offshore racer. Still do so and really enjoy the backhanded comment from crewmembers that don't know me when they comment incredulously and backhandedly " how old are you ?" My problem is getting skippers to be willing to invite me aboard. Hope springs eternal.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

boatsurgeon said:


> (We have ways of dealing with this, swiftly, professionally, and courteously, like everything else we do.)


With this sentence, you have completely shot holes in your own case.
How exactly is a customer to deal with the results of a poor tech when hundreds of miles out to sea, or even a few miles or so out in the stream?
As for the internet weeding out the poor techs, I should think that it would be 100% apparent the role it could play.
When I was not operating a vessel professionally, I was a service tech in Fort Lauderdale. As I had no shop, just knowledge, and tools, I was a no cure-no pay operator and very, very much in demand, especially by the yacht brokers who knew they could rely on my getting the job done or not, but not BSing anybody. 
As for, "On the one hand, I hear some claim "It ain't brain surgery", or "rocket science"; yeah I like that one (even though the work is a craft in a science that is identical to that used on rockets)", I don't think I have ever heard any owner *or* service tech (good or bad) in over 5 decades of being professionally involved in the marine industry, make this statement about anything other than the physical act of sailing! Marine systems are complicated, especially compared to the same system ashore. You turn on a tap in both cases to get water to wash dishes, but on the boat, there must be a tank, a pump and some sort of pressure sensor to maintain the water flow. On land all that is done far from the consumer.
Furthermore, a qualified and experienced marine tech should, in his own field, definitely be familiar enough with the equipment he purports to be able to repair that 15 minutes would be sufficient, in my *professional* opinion, to be fairly well into the diagnostics. Heck, I walked aboard a completely dark *Danish* (every label on the vessel was in Danish, a language I did not speak or read) refrigerated freighter with a helper (who also did not speak or read Danish) and had every system functioning in two days. It took about four hours to get the first generator operating and after that, it was just a matter of relabeling switches through trial and error to get everything else up, labeled and operating, including 4 ammonia refrigeration systems for the cargo holds.
I've found almost all yacht manufacturers use similar, if not the same exact systems, depending on the age and place of the build (pumps, electrical panels, lighting, appliances etc). For instance, there are very few marine refrigeration and air-conditioning manufacturers and any reasonably competent tech in that field should be able to analyze and repair any one of them, pretty much without even needing to read the tech manual. 
Too many service personnel today, in all industries, not just the marine industry, have absolutely no comprehension of how the equipment they service works. They simply change parts until they find the one that caused the fault, and the customer must pay for everything that came before the correct part.
A truly competent and capable service tech can weather the occasional poor customer, but a poor service provider is a danger to those he services. You just cannot compare the two.


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## Untrained (Aug 10, 2015)

Interesting topic.
As a new sailor in my late 50s I'm interested in setting up my boat for easier operation. I would like to set up my boat with all lines to the cockpit. I just don't know what I don't know. Four reefing lines
Two halyards, traveler lines, vang, main sheet and possibly lines for the cruising chute. Spinnaker pole lines? Holy crap!
I really want to figure this out before my limitations get worse. 
I admire those of you who are still sailing in the mid 60s and beyond. I hope somehow that I will be able to also.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Many of my friends are sailing, essentially unrestrained, in their 60s. Sure, they can afford a few more conveniences to pull it off. Passing 70 starts the noticeable attrition. Statistically, I bet well more than half, probably more than 75%, drop out by 75. Just my observation/guess, no data.


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## Joe_P (Aug 23, 2018)

Well, we made it to six pages of responses, and no one's mentioned the book that addresses this very issue, by one of my favorite authors. Reese Palley's "Call of the Ancient Mariner" specifically talks about all this.


From the Amazon description:


"An inspiring, irreverent, and spirited manifesto for senior sailors and would-be sailors

Nearly one million recreational sailors are now over 60, and their numbers will soon swell with baby boomers. Yet, no sailing literature has addressed the needs, concerns, and dreams of senior sailors--until now!

In Call of the Ancient Mariner, 82-year-old Reese Palley proclaims that sailing is the natural sport for the old, the best way to lengthen and improve your life, and the perfect antidote to a society that conspires to narrow senior horizons.

Having circled the globe on a small boat in his 60s and 70s, Palley assures older sailors that with the right preparation and gear, they can and should keep sailing long into their golden years. In his eloquent, engaging, and witty style, he:

Helps older sailors prepare for long voyages
Gives practical advice on making boats safer and easier to operate
Shows why, far from endangering health, sailing improves health, and profiles a delightful variety of septua- and octogenerian sailors to underline the point"





Anyhow, I admit while it's part of my library, I haven't read it. Being only 39, I have a few years yet to flip through it.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

I'm 63 & have to admit being on the boat does help keep me in better shape. Last summer I lost 25#'s because I was active. Now that winter is back gained 5#'s & my old back is pretty tight. Thinking about joining a gym...

Age was part of the reason I went with a smaller boat cause I want to continue doing this.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'd like to believe that staying active with sailing, as long as practical, helps with one's balance. A loss of balance and a bad fall is a leading cause of injury, even death, in elderly. 

As the body ages, stuff hurts and we all become a bit timid about certain movements that might tweak some calcium deposits or aggravate an old injury. I think this natural defensive approach contributes, in part, to one's loss of balance practice. We don't move, jump, run or climb like we once did. Of course, there are other factors, even the inner ear. But many physicians recommend that we get more balance practice as we age and I can't think of a better way than a pitching deck.


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

One could also argue that tightrope walking over the Niagara Gorge would be good balancing practise.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

Minni,
My wife works at hospital. She says as we get older we all are just one fall away from needing a cane or a walker to get around. I'm glad I had back surgery couple of years ago or I'd be walking around with a cane...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

For quite a long time I couldn't quite figure out what it was that I had lost, but my ability to stand and walk on deck in almost any conditions without holding on was slipping away. It finally came to me and it was a complete shock; I was losing agility.
I have been doing this boating thing since I was 12 years old, nearly continuously, and like everything else in our lives that changes over a long period very slowly, these changes were happening to me almost unnoticed until something went awry. I think this is where the danger lies for me.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

When you are old... whatever that age is.... your body does not react as quickly. Cap calls it agility. We don't walk as quickly or do ANYTHING quickly and smoothly and assuredly as we once did. Some body but parts are simply now working as well. Joints are not a smooth... range of motion is limited. Balance is not only the signal from your ears... but the feedback from your legs etc.... and balance control is very subtle, precise and quick.... when the muscles in the leg and foot are not working quickly your balance will be off, your footing unsteady and you will find yourself requiring more support for balance and leverage. Old adjusts and does so by moving slower and more deliberately... and limiting what can be done. It takes time to get used to but there is no choice.

Some activities demand very quick reaction time. Those activities must be left to the young. For the most part sailing is a slow activity... and can be done with less strength than other activities.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

you are too old to sail when you start looking at power boats or RV's on line thinking "that looks good"

It's OK everyone does it if they live long enough.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Don0190 said:


> you are too old to sail when you start looking at power boats or RV's on line thinking "that looks good"
> 
> It's OK everyone does it if they live long enough.


I didn't know about that statement. I don't see an RV as a negative

I get that you would not understand about the RV thing as your water lockd in and maybe that's all you see , or maybe you've seen everything you wanted to see on the land already.

I haven't....neither has my wife. This country is beautiful and some of it can only be seen from. "land " vehicle. I really don't look at it as an either or. It's not black or white. To me it's not sail or RV. We are definitely going to purchase one. We can have both a sailboat and an RV. For now sailing will take up the majority of our time, with RV being used in the winter when the Chessie is too cold. Being in our mid 60 we are no here near giving up our sailing passion. However my back surgery kind of changed my thinking a little. I CAN see where we may not so easy be physically To h a ndle Haleakula. I suspect SanderO has had similar thoughts by some of his topics recently / posts.

Up to now our direction was to purchase a larger boat and cruise south in the winter when we retire.( Shortly) We will never give up our land house as we want a home base when, ( not should) we age or get really sick or incapacitated . Living on a boat under those conditions doesnt appeal to us. Besides as I said we tend to take the rounded approach and have lots of places we want to see which are landlocked and accessable by RV.

Right now is the oppertune time to purchase an RV price wise as they are the cheapest they have been in years. We don't want a huge Winnebago, just a comfortable 30-35 footer we can tow / hitch to a larger truck. RVs like that are plenty of room for us to explore the US/ Canda / Central and South America staying here we want to and immerse in the culture and geography where ever we travel.

We not giving up Haleakula....just adding to our experiences.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> I didn't know about that statement. I don't see an RV as a negative
> 
> I get that you would not understand about the RV thing as your water lockd in and maybe that's all you see , or maybe you've seen everything you wanted to see on the land already.
> 
> .


I'm pretty sure you took my post wrong, but I'm just not up to typing a comeback this morning :ship-captain:


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

capta said:


> For quite a long time I couldn't quite figure out what it was that I had lost, but my ability to stand and walk on deck in almost any conditions without holding on was slipping away. It finally came to me and it was a complete shock; I was losing agility.


Ya know I have experienced this a couple of times & just wrote it off to the overconsumption of alcohol the night before 

You're scaring me.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

capta said:


> For quite a long time I couldn't quite figure out what it was that I had lost, but my ability to stand and walk on deck in almost any conditions without holding on was slipping away. It finally came to me and it was a complete shock; I was losing agility.
> I have been doing this boating thing since I was 12 years old, nearly continuously, and like everything else in our lives that changes over a long period very slowly, these changes were happening to me almost unnoticed until something went awry. I think this is where the danger lies for me.


I've been thinking along similar lines. I'm 68, how old are you?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Its slower to sense, hence reaction is not at previous peak


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## daknecht (Dec 29, 2012)

I have been considering this question since I bought my current boat at age 60. I had never considered it before, but realized there would come a time when I could not handle a 36' sloop. Now 65, there are days when I run out of power to winch the genoa in further when the wind pipes up to 20 knots, but feel mostly unrestricted taking my boat out solo. I even do a few races every year single handed as I really enjoy not having crew to deal with. I also find my balance is not as good. But overall, I can't see stopping until I am at least 70. There is a guy out our club that sails his Nonsuch almost every day in the spring summer and fall and he is in his 80's. When he needs help to do something, he recruits someone, and the community is glad to help. That is the way sailors are.
One of the things that altered my view of this question is when we chartered a Jeanneau 50 DS in the Caribbean a few years ago. She was a lovely yacht (unfortunately lost in the hurricane) and the largest I had ever captained. There were two sailors on board (63 and 67) and two wife/non-sailors. The boat was far easier to handle than I expected and than my 36 footer. It had electric winches on the genoa and one for halyards and also an electric windlass. That combination made it push button sailing most of the time. The other thing that mattered was the stiffness of the boat. My boat has rail in the water no matter what sail in 20-30 knots of wind. The Jeanneau was much more upright and stable in the 25-30 knot days we encountered. That made for much easier and safer movement around the boat. So I would argue that in addition to the luck of how your body ages, it is also the boat and setup of the boat that has a large role in determining how long one can sail. I know I will likely change boats when my C&C starts feeling like too much and look toward something easier to handle and maintain, with more electric assists and keep making whatever changes are needed to keep going as long as I can.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

When you're young, you have so much strength and stamina that you can accomplish difficult tasks with strength alone. In your later years, when that strength and stamina begin to fade, you realize that you must learn how to use your remaining strength and stamina more efficiently, so that you can achieve the same results as before, with less expenditure of time and energy.

If you treat sail handling as a time and motion study, you find many ways in which you can work smarter and more efficiently, often as well as or better than some younger crew. You also realize, more than ever, that sailing is a team sport that requires the members of the team to coordinate with each other. Many helmsmen, for example, make the jobs of sail handlers much more difficult by sloppy helmsmanship. Better helmsmanship can make the sail handlers' jobs much easier and less physical.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Sailormon6 said:


> Better helmsmanship can make the sail handlers' jobs much easier and less physical.


I believe that an older helmsman is likely to be the better helmsman. More experienced, less easily distracted (I once had a friend who couldn't win a race until he put topless women aboard as crew), and more patient.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

I'm currently out in San Diego where my gal has dragged me to go look at a retirement community up the coast. One of the few that has a view of the ocean. San Diego looks like a great sailing city BTW. Anyway we were discussing how financial planners use to recommend that withdrawing 4% of your retirement savings annually use to be the formula to make sure your money would last hopefully as long as you do.

The new model divides ones retirement years into three parts:
1) The GO GO years. (most money spent traveling)
2) The Slow Go years
3) The No Go years.

I think I'm entering the Slow Go years Sailing wise which I am embracing fully. Just hope those last a long time personally.


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## Tuna Driver (Sep 17, 2011)

So Scotty and I both knew guy that won his Fleet National Championship at 90 years of age. He wasn't so spry and couldn't see worth a darn by then. He did have a good crew and knew how to use them. I suspect he could helm the boat better by feel than I ever will seeing fairly well. 70 in a month and am thinking of turning from racing to cruising, maybe. So do what you can for as long as you can. You won't regret it. You probably will know when to quit.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Grinding a winch can already be murder on my shoulders (calcium deposits). Even though our boat is push button, I sail on OPBs and bareboats that aren't. 

Part of the issue is trying to grind like we were neck and neck in the America's Cup, have the perfect tack, etc. If I'm more measured, insure a posture that doesn't hurt and take things more deliberately than via brute force, I am fine. Older is wiser, out of necessity.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minne this is exactly correct... old salts are not usually in race mode... so the intense frantic grinding of a winch after a tack is really not necessary. When I tack Shiva I use the AP and it turns slower than a helmsman because it can't move the helm hard over as a helmsman can... After all APs are mostly doing small continuous course corrections. So the tack is a slower than non AP tack... and it usually over steers a bit too. This allows me to toss of the working sheet and take most of it up on the new tack and there is almost no "hard" grinding required. When there is a lot of force in the sheet it does take more strength to trim... and then I need to position myself and use more of my back and less of my arms. My mainsheet is 8:1 (and 4:1) so that too does not require much muscle... but it can be taken to a winch. I've gotten a Milwaukee angle drill with a winch bit to raise the main or any lift project... like getting the RIB on the deck.. and of course with all chain I use a windlass for anchoring.

Sailing for me is less a strength challenge than it is as Cap noted an agility and balance problem. Sure sh*t can happen and you're left to manual strength to solve the problem. But most things can be done SMART as opposed to STRONG. Loss of agility, and range of motion and problem joints are inevitable if you live long enough as is failing hearing and sight. Most of these deficits arrive slowly and we can adapt. Yet we will reach a level of performance which makes sailing either too difficult, unpleasant or even dangerous to ourselves or those on board.


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

capta said:


> With this sentence, you have completely shot holes in your own case.
> How exactly is a customer to deal with the results of a poor tech when hundreds of miles out to sea, or even a few miles or so out in the stream?
> As for the internet weeding out the poor techs, I should think that it would be 100% apparent the role it could play.
> When I was not operating a vessel professionally, I was a service tech in Fort Lauderdale. As I had no shop, just knowledge, and tools, I was a no cure-no pay operator and very, very much in demand, especially by the yacht brokers who knew they could rely on my getting the job done or not, but not BSing anybody.
> ...


Please.

I agree that an excellent service provider can weather the odd bad customer...

Just as a competent skipper can weather the odd bad service provider...

...by performing their own due diligence and not hiring them in the first place.

Additionally, a competent boater can ensure that the service contract includes a method of inspection / test / verification before leaving the slip.

Quite frankly, I insist on it as the service provider, to protect myself from the boater.


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