# Sloop vs. Ketch...



## mrhoneydew (May 1, 2008)

Okay... so I don't want to start any cross words over rigging preference from die-hards, sloop or ketch,  but my experience has only been with sloops. A friend keeps suggesting that I look at a ketch given that my aim is to single-hand in open water because, according to him, having a mizzen can really serve to balance out the boat and gives more options to tune the rig to conditions. Seems to me a sloop is a bit simpler, not to mention that another mast and the rigging/sails that goes with it equals additional expense. I don't know that I am convinced that the value gained is worth the expense. I am a fairly stout and relatively young guy so it seems that handling the larger main of a sloop--provided I pay attention and react to changing weather conditions--shouldn't be such an issue. Any thoughts?


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

I look at boats like women...they have to stir your soul and be pleasing to your eye......suit yourself


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

While searching for our current boat, we limited our search to sloops and cutters. We ended up with a sloop, although I think I would have preferred a cutter rig. We ruled out boats with two sticks for the same reasons you have already mentioned. 

Having said that, we know we ruled out several good boats because of our personal bias. You might want to go for a sail on a ketch or yawl before you decide for yourself.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I have a ketch and previously owned all sloops. If you are singlehanding in a boat under 40 feet you will be better off with a sloop or a cutter. Get a good mainsail handling system that makes reefing easy (boom furling or stack pack with juffy reefing) and put your genny and staysail on furlers and you will have a boat that is easily handled in most conditions. 

On my size boat, the height of the main mast becomes a concern and the sail area of the main makes it MUCH more difficult to handle even for a big guy. We love our ketch..but in your situation I think it would be a needless complication. The only thing I can think of that might argue in its favor is if your main mast comes down...you can still sail home.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I would echo Ray's comments above (and Still's  ). While I love the look of ketch's, yawls and schooners the added complexity for marginal gains didn't add up for me. My experience is mainly with sloops, but I now have a removable inner forestay for a staysail and I like it. I haven't had enough time with it to decide if I want to make it permanent with it's own roller furling or leave it removable with a hank on sail. It does add extra rigging and two sets of sheets so there is more work, especially if you set the running backs, so the jury is still out. I do like the options for reducing sail that a cutter gives you though.

John


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## johnshasteen (Aug 9, 2002)

I've owned two cutters and two sloops over the years all bluewater boats and sailed them all extensively offshore. Sloops are the easiest to handle, but in a real blow, a cutter is nice because you can reef the main, drop the headsail and move all your sailpower inward toward the center of gravity of your boat. But don't try to turn a sloop into a cutter as they are two very different boats. On sloops the mast is pretty far forward, usually into the aft part of the head, on most cutters, the mast is set further back to accomodate two head sails (usually has a bow sprit as well) and the comes down though the middle of the main saloon.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I will echo Cam, and add a thought.

I strongly prefer cutters for offshore, but once you get your sloop down you can handle most conditions.

However, a huge benefit of the ketch is the mast height (as Cam mantioned). You may find your Ketch can go places an equally sized (or smaller) sloop/cutter cannot because of mast height. The bridges, for example, IN SW FL are 55 feet. Many Ketches would make it while others would not.

*I would throw out the question back to Cam and others that have a lot of experience on Ketch rigged boats: How do they sail without the Mizzen? *

- CD


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

CD...generally don't rig the mizzen except downwind or beam reaches in light to moderate air. In really heavy air I simply reef down the main , roll up the genny and roll out the staysail most often. I have not tired the mizzen and staysail alone in really really heavy weather since I have not encountered any and my inclination has been to simply use the control that the boom furling on the main gives me to de-power the boat when needed. Sails just great without the mizzen but in 15-20kts I CAN get an extra knot out of her with the mizzen up. 
I'm sure the sloop rig version of my boat would go to windward better and maybe go a bit faster on other points of sail...but I can come in at Beaufort and enjoy Oriental and Manteo etc. whereas te sloop must go around Hatteras and enter the Chesapeake missing the entire state of NC! As I said, I like my ketch for a lot of reasons...but they are not for everyone!


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

For both racing and cruising I have found my yawl provides the best of both options.


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

One mast or two that is the question.

I can tell you that there is very little written about two masted sailing.

What sail goes up first?? Alot of asking and could not get a consistant answer. Reading could not find it. After about four months I found it in Chapmans, a two line paragraph I think.

Tacking with a jib boom is a snap---jibing is more difficult.

If flying a 150 genoa you can over power the rudder if you dont have it balanced with the mizzen.

I dont think I would want to single hand one though.

Rick


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

With my yawl, in light air, a beam reach in light to moderate or at anchor, the Mizzen is useful. Any other point of sail. it's not used. The Staysail is only used in heavy air, too heavy for the furled Genoa. I sail Oh Joy like a sloop in most conditions.


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## mrhoneydew (May 1, 2008)

CharlieCobra said:


> With my yawl, in light air, a beam reach in light to moderate or at anchor, the Mizzen is useful. Any other point of sail. it's not used. The Staysail is only used in heavy air, too heavy for the furled Genoa. I sail Oh Joy like a sloop in most conditions.


That's a good point. Just because the second mast is there, you wouldn't necessarily have to use it. For me it's mostly going to come down to what is available when I am ready to buy and the condition for the price. I hadn't been looking at 2 masted rigs but perhaps I will not exclude them from the search. So that brings up my second point about expense down the road... don't 2 masts and related gear add to it significantly?

Next point... if I do go with a ketch/yawl/etc. where might I learn to get the most out of it? I am planning to take a good off-shore course, but that would likely be on a sloop. I haven't really looked into many schools yet, but so far I haven't seen anything that focuses on 2-masted boats. I am more of the hands-on sort of learner and I know I would gain a lot from just getting out there and farting around with it for a while and testing various configurations. But after I did that and was basically ready to go for an extended off-shore jaunt I would want somebody to come out for a while and give some pointers/correct some bad habits first. I believe people should be paid for their time but my budget is fairly tight so I would really need to weigh the pros and cons of hiring somebody with a great amount of experience with a 2-masted rig.

This is some great input from everybody. Thanks.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

CharlieCobra said:


> With my yawl, in light air, a beam reach in light to moderate or at anchor, the Mizzen is useful. Any other point of sail. it's not used. The Staysail is only used in heavy air, too heavy for the furled Genoa. I sail Oh Joy like a sloop in most conditions.


I hoist the mizzen in all conditions (not sure if it helps or hurts windward performance), the real question for me is if I hoist the main. In heavy weather, or if sailing short handed with the kids I often leave the main on deck and sail with genny and mizzen only. Boat handles great and still shows good speed.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I originally wrote this for another venue but it might prove useful to you as a general discussion on sailing rigs: 
<O</O
<OJeff </O
<O</O
_The next topic in our ongoing discussion on selecting the ideal boat is rigs. Like most of the topics to date, there is no single universally 'right answer' when it comes to the topic of rigs. Boats are designed as systems and each of the various rig types have their purpose and are best suited to particular hull types, and applications. The quality of the design is also important as a poorly designed rig of any type can make for a miserable sailing vessel that is hard on the crew and the boat alike. _
<O</O
<O</O
_Cutter and Sloop rig_
<O</O
_These are the most common rigs being produced today. In current usage these terms are applied quite loosely as compared to their more traditional definitions. Traditionally the sloop rig was a rig with a single mast located forward of 50% of the length of the sailplan. In this traditional definition a sloop could have multiple jibs. _
<O</O
_Cutters had a rig with a single mast located 50% of the length of the sailplan or further aft, multiple headsails and in older definitions, a reefing bowsprit (a bowsprit that could be withdrawn in heavy going). Somewhere in the 1950's or 1960's there was a shift in these definitions such that a sloop only flew one headsail and a cutter had multiple headsails and mast position became irrelevant. For the sake of this discussion I assume we are discussing the modern definition of a sloop and a cutter._
<O</O
_Historically, when sail handling hardware was primitive and sails were far more stretchy than they are today, the smaller headsails and mainsail of a traditional cutter were easier to handle and with less sail stretch, allowed earlier cutters to be more weatherly (sail closer to the wind) than the sloops of the day. With the invention of lower stretch sailcloth and geared winches, cutters quickly lost their earlier advantage. _
<O</O
_Today sloops are generally closer winded and easier to handle. Their smaller jibs and larger mainsail sailplan are easier to power up and down. Without a jibstay to drag the across, sloops are generally easier to tack. With less hardware sloops are less expensive to build. _
<O</O
_Sloops come in a couple varieties, masthead and fractional. In a masthead rig the forestay and jib originates at the masthead. In a fractional rig, the forestay originates some fraction of the mast height down from the masthead. Historically, sloops were traditionally fractionally rigged. Fractional rigs tend to give the most drive per square foot of sail area. Their smaller jibs are easier to tack and they reef down to a snug masthead rig. Fractional rigs place a lower stress on their hulls and often get by with lighter rigging and hardware for an equal structural safety margin. Today, fractional rigs are often proportioned so that they do not need headsails that overlap the shrouds making them even easier to sail. One of the major advantages of a fractional rig is the ability, especially when combined with a flexible mast, to use the backstay to control mast bend and sail shape. Increasing backstay tension does a lot of things on a fractional rig: it tensions the forestay which in turn flattens the jib. Increasing backstay tension induces controlled mast bend, which flattens the mainsail and opens the leech of the sail. This allows quick depowering as the wind increases and so allows a fractional rig to sail in a wider wind speed range without reefing, or making a headsail change than a masthead rig, although arguably requiring a bit more sail trimming skills. _
<O</O
_While fractional rigs used to require running backstays, better materials and design approaches have pretty much eliminated the need for running backstays. That said, fractional rigs intended for offshore use, will often have running backstays that are only rigged in heavy weather once the mainsail has been reefed. The geometry of these running backstays typically allows the boat to be tacked without tacking the running backstays. _
<O</O
_Masthead rigs came into popularity in the 1950's primarily in response to racing rating rules that under-penalized overlapping jibs (genoas) and spinnakers and so promoted bigger headsails. Masthead sloops tend to be simpler rigs to build and adjust. They tend to be more dependent on large headsails and so are harder to tack and also require a larger headsail inventory if performance is important. Mast bend is harder to control and so bigger masthead rigs will often have a babystay that can be tensioned to prevent pumping and induce mast bend in the same way as a fractional rig does. Dragging a Genoa</ST1 over the babystay makes tacking a bit more difficult and slower. While roller furling allows a wider wind range for a given <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com







Genoa</ST1







<ST1







Genoa</st1:City>, there is a real limit (typically cited 10% to 15%) to how much a <ST1<st1:City w:st="on">Genoa</st1:City> can be roller furled and still maintain a safely flat shape. As a result, masthead rigged boats generally require larger sail inventories._
<O</O
_Cutters, which had pretty much dropped out of popularity during a period from right after the end of WW II until the early 1970's, came back into popularity with a vengeance in the early 1970's as an offshore cruising rig. In theory, the presence of multiple jibs allows the forestaysail to be dropped or completely furled, and when combined with a reefed mainsail, and the full staysail, results in a very compact heavy weather rig (similar to the proportions of a fractional rigged sloop with a reef in the mainsail). As a result the cutter rig is often cited as the ideal offshore rig. While that is the theory, it rarely works out that the staysail is properly proportioned, (either too small for normal sailing needs and for the lower end of the high wind range (say 20-30 knots) or too large for higher windspeeds) and made of a sail cloth that makes sense as a heavy weather sail but which is too heavy for day to day sailing in more moderate conditions or out of a sail cloth too light for heavy going. Also when these sails are proportioned small enough to be used as heavy weather sails, these rigs will often develop a lot of weather helm when being sailed in winds that are too slow to use a double reefed mainsail. Like fractional rigs, cutter rigs intended for offshore use, will often have running backstays that are only rigged in heavy weather once the mainsail has been reefed. Unlike the fractional rig, when the running backstays are deployed, the geometry of these running backstays typically require that the running backstays be tacked whenever the boat is tacked. _
<O</O
_Cutters make a less successful rig for coastal sailing. Generally, because of their offshore intent, cutters tend to have snug rigs that depend on larger Genoas for light air performance. Tacking these large Genoas through the narrow slot between the jibstay and forestay is a much harder operation than tacking a sloop. As a result many of today's cutters have a removable jibstay that can be rigged in heavier winds. This somewhat reduces the advantage of a cutter rig (i.e. having a permanently rigged and ready to fly small, heavy weather jib). _
<O</O
_Cutters these days generally do not point as close to the wind as similar sized sloops. Because of the need to keep the slots of both headsails open enough to permit good airflow, the headsails on a cutter cannot be sheeted as tightly as the jib on a sloop without choking off the airflow in the slot. Since cutters are generally associated with the less efficient underbodies that are typical of offshore boats this is less of a problem that it might sound. Cutters also give away some performance on deep broad reaches and when heading downwind because the <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1Genoa</ST1</st1:City> acts in the bad air of the staysail. _
<O</O
_Yawls and Ketches:_
<O</O
_As I said at the start of this discussion, boats are systems and when it comes to one size fits all answers, there is no single right answer when it comes to yawls and ketches either. A Yawl is a rig with two masts and the after mast (the mast that is further aft or further back in the boat) is aft of the rudder. A ketch is a rig with two masts, the after mast is forward of the rudder. Either rig can have either a single jib or multiple jibs. When a Yawl or a Ketch has multiple jibs it is referred to a Yawl or a Ketch with multiple headsails. It is considered lubberly to refer to that rig as a 'cutter ketch' or 'cutter Yawl'. _
<O</O
_I lump yawls and ketches together here because the share many similar characteristics. Ketches, in one form or another, have been around for a very long time. In the days before winches, light weight- low stretch sail cloth, high strength- low stretch line, and low friction blocks, breaking a rig into a lot of smaller sails made sense. It made it easier to manhandle the sails and make adjustments. Stretch was minimized so the sails powered up less in a gust and although multiple small sails are less efficient, the hulls were so inefficient that the loss of sail efficiency did not hurt much. Multiple masts, along with bowsprits and boomkins, allowed boats to have more sail area that would be spread out closer to the water. In a time of stone internal ballasting, and high drag in relatinship to stability, this was important as it maximized the amount of drive while minimizing heeling. In theory, multiple masts meant more luff length and more luff length meant more drive forces to windward. But multiple masts also meant more weight and much more drag. There are also issues of down draft interference, meaning that one sail is operating in the disturbed and turbulent air of the sails in front of it, which also greatly reduces the efficiency of multi mast rigs. _
<O</O
_Yawls really came into being as race rule beaters. They are first seen in the 1920's as a rule beater under the Universal and International rules. They continued to be popular under the CCA rule as well. Under these rules, the sail area of jibs and mizzens were pretty much ignored in the rating. This popularized the masthead rig and the yawl. _
<O</O
_There was a basis for not measuring the sail area of a yawl under these rules. On a yawl going to windward, the mizzenmast and sail generally actually produce more drag than they do drive. This is because the mizzen is sailing in really turbulent air and has to be over trimmed to keep from luffing which can effectively act as an airbrake. This is slightly less of the case on a ketch where the size of the mizzen is large enough to provide a larger percentage of the drive. _
<O</O
_Downwind mizzens also are a problem. In this case the mizzen is forcing the main or foresail to operate in their bad air and so again the mizzen is not adding as much to the speed of the boat as they are taking away. BUT in the predominantly reaching races that were typical of offshore races of that era they offered a number of advantages. First of all on a reach the sails are not acting in the slipstream of each other and so each contributes a fair amount of drive for the drag produced. Also with the advent of lightweight low stretch sailcloths, mizzen staysails, which are great reaching sails, came into widespread usage in racing. Here again a ketch has the advantage of having a taller mizzen and so can fly a bigger mizzen staysail. _
<O</O
_It might be helpful to compare yawl and ketch rigs to sloops. The broad generalities are that for a given sail area a sloop rig will generate a greater drive for the amount of drag generated pretty much on all points of sail. That means that a sloop will be faster or will require less sail area to go the same speed. Sloops are particularly better than Multi spar rigs such as Yawls and Ketches on a beat or on a run. A sloop rig would tend to be taller for a given sail area. This means it would be better in lighter air but it potentially might heel more, or need to be depowered or reefed sooner as the breeze picks up. _
<O</O
_Sloops work best on boats with reasonably modern underbodies. Both are more efficient and so can point higher and make less leeway. _
<O</O
_Ketch and Yawl rigs work best with heavier boats with less efficient underbodies such as full keels and deeply Vee'd hull forms. These hull forms often need a lot more drive and the hull is the limiting factor in how fast or how close-winded the boat will be. The yawl or ketch rig's lack of windward ability is less of a liability when placed on a hull that similarly lacks windward ability. Also, the ability of a ketch or yawl to carry more sail with less heeling moment also makes it a natural for a heavier hull form which often has comparatively little stability when compared to the amount of drive required to make a heavy boat move. _
<O</O
_Much is made of the ketch or yawl's ability to be balanced to help with self-steering, to hove to, or the ability to simply sail under Jib and mizzen in a blow. This is one aspect that a traditional ketch or yawl has over a traditional sloop. It is not so true of modern sloops. Modern (especially fractional) sloops can be easily depowered and that reduces the need to reef. With modern slab reefing gear, reefing is far more easily accomplished than dropping the mainsail to the deck on a yawl or ketch. In a properly designed sloop balance is just not all that hard to achieve. _
<O</O
_The performance of all three rigs, both on broad reaches and in lighter air, can be improved by the ability to carry kites of different types. _
<O</O
_In terms of comfort at sea, ketch and yawl rigs push the weight of the spars closer to the ends of the boat which can increase pitch angles, albeit, while perhaps slowing pitching rates. The taller rigs of a sloop tend to increase roll angles while slowing roll rates. _
<O</O
_Then there are structural issues. It is often difficult to properly stay a ketch or yawl rig as the mainmast backstay often need to be routed around the mizzen and the forward load component of the mizzen if often taken by the top of the mainmast. It is also often difficult to get proper aft staying on the mizzen of a ketch or yawl as well. These structural issues are particularly pronounced on Yawls where the mast is so far aft in the boat that on a traditional boat it is hard to get adequate staying base widths. _
<O</O
_Many of the early fiberglass yawls were very poorly engineered. I heard the story of how the <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1lace Bristol</ST1</st1:City> 40 became a yawl. It seems that Clint Pearson (who owned <st1:City w:st="on">Bristol</st1:City>) had started to build a <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1Bristol</ST1</st1:City> 40 sloop on order for a particular customer. As the boat was nearing completion the prospective owner bailed out leaving Mr. Pearson with bit of a problem. Almost at the same time came an enquiry about the availability of a <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1Bristol</ST1</st1:City>40 yawl for prompt delivery for a different person. Without hesitation the potential buyer was told that they happened to have a yawl that was almost finished and would be available in a few weeks. <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1Bristol</st1:City> was building a 24 foot Corsair and they took a mast and rigging from a Corsair and used that for the mizzen. A block of wood was glassed onto the hull for a mast step and a hole cut in the deck for the mast to go through and Voila- the <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1Bristol</st1:City> 40 yawl. Several more were built like that and they quickly proved problematic. Eventually the design was engineered to solve the problems that occurred on the first few yawls. _
<O</O
_You often hear people say that yawls and ketches are simpler rigs to handle. I am not clear why that is assumed to be so as there are more sails to trim and more interaction between the individual sails. As on a sloop, you start trimming from the forward most sail moving aft. Also as on a sloop, fine tuning, small adjustments are made moving forward again to reduce downdraft interference between the sails. Sailed with the same degree of precision, a ketches and yawls require more fine tunning than a sloop but on the whole about the same amount of fine tuning as a cutter. _
<O</O
_Anyway, in conclusion, if you are interested in sailing performance or ease of handling, a sloop rig makes more sense. To me the only justification for the yawl rig today is solely romantic charm, or a sense of history. I do not mean this to be a put down to those who love historic rigs, but for sheer sailing ability a yawl or ketch is a relic of another time, or an obsolete racing rule. Still, if you live in an area that is typically windier and you like traditional boats, then a ketch or yawl is an interesting albeit complicated rig. _
<O</O
_Schooners_
<O</O
_Schooners, more than any of the other fore and aft rigs, are really a series of rigs. They vary from the modern unstayed cat schooners (like the Freedom 39), to Fenger's experiments with wishbone schooners, to the traditional two-masted gaff schooners, to the early 19th century square topsail schooners, to the knockabout and the staysail schooners of the late 1930's, to the 4, 5 and 6 masted cargo schooners of the early 20th century. Each of these has distinct advantages and disadvantages. _
<O</O
_By definition a schooner is a rig with two or more masts with the after mast(s) equal or taller than the forward mast(s). _
<O</O
_Schooners, in one form or another, have been around for a very long time. Like most multi-masted rigs, they evolved in the days when breaking a rig into a lot of smaller sails made sense. Multi-masted rigs resulted in a rig with a greater number of smaller low aspect ratio sails. These proportionately smaller sails reduced stretch within the individual sails, made it easier to manhandle the sails and make sail shape adjustments. This was a time before winches, light weight- low stretch sailcloth, high strength- low stretch line, and low friction blocks. These proportionately smaller sails powered up less in a gust. While multiple small sails are less efficient, the hulls of the era were so inefficient that this loss of sail efficiency did not hurt much. _
<O</O
_Multiple masts, along with bowsprits and boomkins, allowed boats to have more sail area that could be spread out closer to the water. In a time when stone internal ballasting was the norm, this was important as it maximized the amount of drive while minimizing heeling moments. Multiple masts meant more a little more luff length and more luff length meant greater drive force on a reach or beat. But multiple masts also meant more weight aloft and much more aerodynamic drag increasing heel some and greatly reducing the relative efficiency of the sails. Multi mast rigs also have the issue of downdraft interference, meaning that each sail is operating in the disturbed and turbulent air of the sails upwind of it, which also greatly reduces the efficiency of multi mast rigs. ._
<O</O
_Schooners are best suited for burdensome vessels with comparatively little stability. They are best used in sailing venues where they predominantly will be reaching between 30 degrees above a beam reach to approximately 50 degrees below a beam reach. Because of the geometry and inherently high drag of the schooner rig they are not very good rigs upwind or down. Upwind, the large amount of aerodynamic drag from the spars and, in stayed rigs, rigging, coupled with the typically low aspect ratio sails typical of a schooner rig, and the down-drafting problems of a multi-masted rig, results in very poor windward performance. When compared with Yawls, which can drop their mizzen when beating without much consequence, a Schooners primary drive sail(s) are acting in the wind shadow of the entire rig. _
<O</O
_Probably the highest upwind efficiency is achieved in schooners with lug foresails. On a schooner, lug foresails are not actually 'lug rigged'. In the case or a schooner, the term 'lug foresail' means a gaff foresail (not a jib) that foresail that over laps the mainsail in much the same manner as a <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1Genoa</st1:City> over laps the mast on a modern rig. This rig was common in American working craft in the 19th century partially because there was no boom to deal with on the working deck. It was used on such boats as the yacht <st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1"America</ST1</st1:country-region>'s" original rig, Tancook Whalers and on many Atlantic coast pilot boats. Lug foresails need to be tacked around the mast in much the same manner as a <st1:City w:st="on">Genoa</st1:City> is today. _
<O</O
_Downwind the problem of downdraft interference is a major problem as well. The large mainsail again tends to block the air on the sails forward of it and schooners really do not have a tall forward mast on which to fly a meaningful spinnaker. While there are all kinds of kites that can be flown from a schooner, and early working schooners often carried square sails on their foremasts, most of these patches really come into their own on a reach. _
<O</O
_I once had a great conversation with Olin Stephens about schooners. Someone had asked why the schooner rig had died out. In the course of the conversation it was pretty much concluded that as hull forms became increasingly efficient, the schooner rig could not keep up. Great efforts at all kinds of rig improvements were tried but in the end the inherent limitations of the schooner rig was ill matched to the improved hull forms of the early 20th century._
<O</O
_Today, traditional schooners are wonderful to look at relics of a bygone age. Traditional forms of the schooner rig are complicated rigs that are expensive to build and maintain. They generally lack the strength of staying of a more modern rig. They are limited in their ability to beat to windward, hove to, or go dead downwind. They require greater skill to sail well and are pretty labor intensive to sail in shifting conditions. Still there is nothing like the romance of gaff topsail schooner with a bone in her teeth. _


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

The weather helm caused by the Mizzen irritates me going to windward, that and the useless drag if close hauled. I've run Jib and Jigger a few times and found it to be very nice in 35+, especially if I'm using the Staysail. With the Mizzen and Staysail up, I can run in 40+ on a Beam Reach without too much drama, except beam seas, and to windward easily as well. When it gets over 50, things get a mite more interesting.

Edit: Jeff, I knew that post was a coming, just knew it.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

I am saying this with all the humbleness one can covey with out seeing the included body language...

The added cost of maintaining a mizzen on a boat is of such small degree..that in my opinion if that alone were to cause someone the deterrence from owning a ketch...then they cant afford a boat big enough to have had that choice of being rig as one. Best for you to go way smaller if that is the case.


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## mrhoneydew (May 1, 2008)

Stillraining said:


> I am saying this with all the humbleness one can covey with out seeing the included body language...
> 
> The added cost of maintaining a mizzen on a boat is of such small degree..that in my opinion if that alone were to cause someone the deterrence from owning a ketch...then they cant afford a boat big enough to have had that choice of being rig as one. Best for you to go way smaller if that is the case.


Good point, I'm sure. I plan to get something between 34 - 40 feet. From what I have encountered thus far, everything boat related is simply astronomically priced. I go in with that understanding... I just have to be a little more prudent than someone who has more disposable income. But if having a mizzen is seen as enough of a benefit I am willing to incur the additional cost (if it exists). At any rate, the point of starting this thread is to gather some information from people with some experience and I am getting that (thanks everybody!). Ultimately what I wind up purchasing is going to come down to availability, condition, and budget. I am trying to discern whether or not a 2-masted rig is something to consider in my search. At this point I will not rule it out.


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## SteveCox (Jul 12, 2006)

There are people that swear by ketches and others who swear at them. If you read people who have sailed both sloops and ketches (Calder and Leonard/Starzinger for example) you find that they were happy with both though they both went from ketches to sloops/cutters. I wouldn't say go looking for a ketch but I wouldn't stay away from it either. There are some good ketches out there like the Seawind or Seawind II that might be just what you're looking for. Good luck.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Honeydew....under 40', stick with a sloop. Mind you finding a sub 40'er ketch rigged is not all that easy.

Steve Cox......do you think that in many of those cases it was as much a matter of not finding an acceptable design that was anything other than sloop/cutter ?

Me I used to think that cutter was the go until I actually sailed one single handed. Tacking the headsail around the inner forestay is a right pain in the bum. Offshore maybe a different situation. I do still like the theory (never having needed to explore the practice) of a removeable inner forestay for offshore/staysail. 

ps - Jeff, you where pretty damn chirpy when you wrote that piece. More smileys than you can poke a stick at.


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## SteveCox (Jul 12, 2006)

TD,
There is no question that there are more sloops than anything else in the size he is looking for. The point I was trying to make is that he could be happy with any rig. He will be buying a boat not a rig and all rigs have their good and their bad points. Find the boat you fall in love with and get that one whether it has two masts or one.

Steve


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## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

I would echo Cam' comments. Below 40ft I would look at a cutter / sloop. Above 40ft sail handling ability becomes more important. My issue is what is the biggest boat my wife can handle. By going for a ketch it splits the sail size. Plus like yourself I was interested in trying a ketch rig as all my previous boats were sloops.

Cam's point on mast height is also relevant. On my boat the head of the main is about 10 feet off the deck. In heavy weather it's a real bummer to unrig so we generally use the mizzan if the winds are above 30 kts.

Sounds like in your case a cutter / sloop would be the way to go.

Ilenart.


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## MARC55 (May 5, 2008)

I've sailed extensively on sloops and a 48' ketch and I now own a 44' Ketch. For sail options and balancing the boat in the largest number of wind and sea conditions there really is no better option...but variety and comfort cost more and depending on how the sails are configured it could mean a little more work (setting). The real question is how big a boat are you wanting?


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## nealalex (May 16, 2003)

*ketch vs sloop*

I have been visiting some of the boat manufacturers in preparation for my next upgrade. I currently sail a small beneteau fractional sloop with some folks refer to as a "bendy rig"

So far I have been to see Tartan and Gozzard. Gozzard has been making a custom ketch for a client, the design was very impressive. Their comment was up to about 50 feet it does not make much sense to add the mizzen.

I am still undecided as to a ketch, sloop, or yawl. I do remember this fastnet race that was very bad weather and a Beneteau First 38 took second, so if a sloop could handle that weather perhaps the sloop is the best way to go. There is a good book that details that race called "proving grounds".


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## westerly (Dec 5, 2005)

*ketch vs sloop*

when shopping for my first sailboat i was set on a aft cockpit sloop or cutter as i was familiar with that configuration. ended up getting attached to a center cockpit ketch (westerly corsair 36') after getting to know it better. we were together 4 years before hurricane ivan seperated us. i now have a 37' jeanneau voyage aft cockpit sloop. both boats have been a pleasure to sail throughout the caribbean. both have there advantages but i would say the main asset to the mizzen for me was a place to hang things, like radar, windgen, solar shower, etc. on longer voyages i did often use the mizzen sail & it did balance out well, but she sailed well both ways.


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## Skipaway (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks for that descriptive commentary, Jeff. Many times I’ve gone to Chapman to refresh my memory on rigs; now it is all here, thoroughly covered, in one place.

It so happened that a schooner rigged vessel motored by yesterday. From 3/4 mile away looked about 40’ & fiberglass. It sure did evoke the ”romantic charm, or a sense of history.” 

I’ll stick to my sloop for single-handling, until the next affordable dream boat presents itself.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Westerly...small hijack...where were you in Ivan? We go hit in Grenada. Were we neighbors?


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## Alberg30 (Jul 20, 2006)

I disagree with Jeff slightly on this point:

_Cutters also give away some performance on deep broad reaches and when heading downwind because the Genoa acts in the bad air of the staysail. _

... most cutter owners understand that the staysail/foresail combination is no good lower than a beam reach. So, it's sort of a moot point, because the staysail is dropped.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

That should probably read: "_Cutters also give away some performance on deep broad reaches and when heading downwind because the Genoa acts in the *turbulent* air of the staysail *and mainsail*." _

The point being that cutters tend to have pretty small sail areas relative to their weight, even with their staysails. Striking the staysail on a reach reduces this sail area further. While a large genoa may make up for the lost area of a staysail in some conditions, at deep reaching angles and running angles, the lost area and interaction between the Mainsail and, if flown, headsail, can really hurt the peformance of a cutter.

Sloops with large headsail/small mainsail rig proportions have a similar problem, except if they fly a spinnaker. Their spinnakers tend to be huge in width making them harder to handle than a rig proportion balanced towards a bigger mainsail with smaller headsail proportion. Of course it is difficult to fly a symetrical chute on a cutter and an assymetric does not do well at deep sailing angles.

Jeff


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

My 2 cents

I sailed/livedaboard a heavy 38 foot steel ketch for 7 years. I do not claim to be a saillor, I just hang the rags on the sticks and wait till I get somewhere.

When setting sail the mizzen went up first, then the main and finally the headsail. I frequently sailed off the anchor but I did have a serious S/L electric anchor winch, which I could operate from the cockpit.

The first step in reducing sail was to reef the main, then roll a bit of headsail away. If it was still uncomfortable I would drop the main and continue under half headsail and mizzen. She was balanced [ I think ] throughout this process.

Currently I am looking at 44 to 46 foot boats as a retirement mobile cottage in the Caribbean and while I would prefer a ketch a cutter or sloop will do just fine.

IMHOthe attitude oif mind matters more than the boat. My Ryton 38 was ugly and slow but we got there. If I wanted to get there before another boat I would leave a day earlier! [OK on a transatlantic a week earlier].


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

One last useless point is that they just look so darn cool... what ever argument for or against them might be.....Im into looking cool..


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## mgmhead (Jan 14, 2007)

When boat shopping a couple of years ago my wife fell in love with a Pearson 365. I liked everything about the boat except the fact that it was a yawl. I searched for a Pearson 36 (the sloop version) to no avail. She still thinks she'd have been very happy with that boat but she'll readily tell you that she loves our sloop.

I think it true that beauty is in the eye of the beholder ... and I also think you shouldn't buy a boat unless it "speaks to you."


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## Johnno (Dec 23, 2004)

*Jeff H has done it again*

Deleted as a personal attack. Personal Attacks are not permitted within forum rules.


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

^^^ I'm with you there. IMO, yawls give a lot of the advantages of ketches without the hassle of a big mizzen (at the expense of a large main). We keep the mizzen up unless running and it draws on all other ponts of sail. Once you get the trim right, it works fine to windward. 30 deg. or so off apparent isn't bad for any boat.

Jib and jigger with a good yawl has to be experienced to be believed- for convenience and good sailing qualities, I wouldn't go back to a sloop.


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