# Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy no controversial cat thread)



## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

From those in the know and with some experience I was wondering what Catamaran's they may recommend for bluewater family cruising with a modest budget around 150k?

I am also curious what precautions and attributes they would be looking for in a Catamaran to take on some long distances? I hear discussions about bridge deck clearance but beyond that I must confess to not really having extensive knowledge in terms of what makes one cat more suitable for passage making than another?

I must admit that I ask mostly academically as I feel that we will most probably be going with a monohull as our next boat but more than one person has asked us why we are not buying a cat, as they would be perfect and I find myself considering them more and more appropriate for the kind of cruising we like to do. 

(As an aside I understand the Cat vs Mono debate has been all heated and fierce here of late, I have no time nor interest in keyboard wars, I ask with a bonafide interest in thoughtful discussion but if this thread heads down the path of a Sailnet stoush the mods may have their way with it).


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

One of the older Prout cats with a total refit.
<$150k


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

RegisteredUser said:


> One of the older Prout cats with a total refit.
> <$150k


I am finding it takes a bit to get used to the look of the Prouts. Yet clearly they are up to the task.

Just claim across the below example

1996 Prout Snowgoose 37 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

In that price range, you will generally be looking at either a used modest production boat, or a very old larger production boat. The Lagoon and Fountain Pajot 38' models would be very capable and probably available in this range. That FP Athena you mentioned was a good sailing design and decent build. The market location plays a huge role - if you are located where catamarans are rarer, they will be more expensive. If you are in Florida or the Eastern Caribbean, they will be willing to take much less.

Since you are upside down, you have access to a large number of home-built catamarans from solid, well-known designs and designers. I think every single person down there has built one at some time or another. Maybe it is compulsory, like military service is in some countries? I imagine that some of these boats can be found at good prices and in good shape, but you will need a very good surveyor and perhaps a talk with the designer to make sure the design engineering was followed correctly.

Bridgedeck clearance is over-played. Yes, it is important, but mostly for comfort. Few designs are so low that it really impacts distance cruising. The Gemini and PDQ36 and some others in that category are low enough to be an actual issue, but those aren't typical distance cruising boats. 

A lower bridgedeck will pound a bit more, particularly at certain points of sail, and cause a boat to be slower due to drag. The smaller the boat, and the heavier it is, the more the bridgedeck clearance makes a difference. Bridgedeck shape is as much of importance as clearance. A smooth, rounded shape with no bumps or protrudences like found on that Athena, or Privilege, or Manta helps greatly to reduce the problem, while a flat surface with bump outs, etc, like found on some smaller Voyages and others, can cause more discomfort.

I don't have a good answer to what makes one more suited for passage making than another. Design isn't all that important, and it generally comes down to livability, fuel and water capacity, and that sort of stuff. Light air performance can be a plus if the passages are known for light air. Here it comes down mostly to not over-loading the boat because heavy is slow. Heavy also effects windward performance. We are heavy and slow and don't point as well as we used to because of loading everything we own on board and cruising full-time for 10yrs. But we sail in areas where we are reefed more often than not, so light air sailing hasn't been as big of a concern (yet), and the winds are predictable and rarely on our nose.

Then it gets into fit and finish, aesthetics, and usability of the interior. This is usually where the wife contributes the most, as men seem to not have that gene, or at least not care much about it.

After that, it gets into the weeds as far as design parameters regarding hull shapes, keel/boards, rigging and sails, etc. You will go faster, and closer to the wind, in a lightly loaded Outremer 45 than you will in a much heavier Lagoon 45, but both of them cross oceans regularly.

Now after all that, it really gets into paralysis analysis about which designs will survive a storm of the century that you are sure to meet as soon as you leave the harbor. Most people on forums end up here. Many start here. But you would be best served to start higher up in this post and ignore this paragraph for a long time.

Man, if I had kids, I'd want a boat with 4 hulls - preferable completely separate ones. Maybe located in different bays or on other people's boat. Two hulls connected together would be a minimum, for sure.

Mark


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

The new Leopard 40 and 42 with the patio out front!

It's a "game changer". 

You walk from cocpit into the kitchen/saloon and straight through a front door onto the foredeck. 

It's about 3 years old so will be down at a reasonable price when they start coming out of charter in a few years. But still over $150k for a while.
I can't find a good photo of one. Crazy


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

colemj said:


> In that price range, you will generally be looking at either a used modest production boat, or a very old larger production boat. The Lagoon and Fountain Pajot 38' models would be very capable and probably available in this range. That FP Athena you mentioned was a good sailing design and decent build. The market location plays a huge role - if you are located where catamarans are rarer, they will be more expensive. If you are in Florida or the Eastern Caribbean, they will be willing to take much less.


We are open on location. We are mostly keen on NOT buying on OZ as boats down here are overpriced by world standards and we have spent years sailing the east coast. In terms of our boat hunt so far we have been mostly looking in the Med.



colemj said:


> Bridgedeck clearance is over-played. Yes, it is important, but mostly for comfort. Few designs are so low that it really impacts distance cruising. The Gemini and PDQ36 and some others in that category are low enough to be an actual issue, but those aren't typical distance cruising boats.


Awkwardly... I was liking the Gemini's until now!



colemj said:


> Now after all that, it really gets into paralysis analysis about which designs will survive a storm of the century that you are sure to meet as soon as you leave the harbor. Most people on forums end up here. Many start here. But you would be best served to start higher up in this post and ignore this paragraph for a long time.
> 
> Mark


Very familiar with paralysis analysis and take most of what is on internet forums with a fairly large grain of salt!

Have done a bit of cruising and I reckon probably the thing that is most likely to do me in is the gas oven, followed closely by the boom. The perfect storm is down my list of worries. You and I both know though that forum threads about correct gas installation are way too dull to incite the level of internet outrage needed to fuel salinet's keyboard warriors.

Thankyou for the great post. Appreciated.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

There isn't a 42 like this - only the 40 and 45.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chall03 said:


> Awkwardly... I was liking the Gemini's until now!


There have been people cruising far with Gemini's. I didn't mean to discount them completely, but you should visit some of their blogs and read a bit between the lines. They are good boats that have rightly sold more than almost any other catamarans, but their design criteria is definitely not longer-range cruising. Even the builder was clear on this. Doesn't mean it isn't possible, though.



chall03 said:


> Have done a bit of cruising and I reckon probably the thing that is most likely to do me in is the gas oven, followed closely by the boom. The perfect storm is down my list of worries.


You have greatly underestimated your wife. I imagine she is counting on this.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chall03 said:


> We are open on location. We are mostly keen on NOT buying on OZ as boats down here are overpriced by world standards and we have spent years sailing the east coast. In terms of our boat hunt so far we have been mostly looking in the Med.


I have met more Aussies than I can count who bought boats in Florida or the Caribbean, took a couple of years leisurely cruising through the Caribe and South Pacific, and sold their boats on return to Oz for such a profit it paid for the boat, the trip, and part of the next boat. They then returned to do it again.

The first time one was telling me about this (at least what I could understand from his mangled attempt at English), I thought he was putting me on. Then I met another, and another, and another - it got to the point where every Aussie I met was on a second or third round of cruising this way.

Sounds like quite the racket.

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I like Geminis, largely because they are a boat that i could one day afford, but I dont know if it is a boat I would want for real blue water.

A catamaran derives its stability largely from beam, there are other factors like hull volume, height of superstructure, height and size of rig, but beam to length ratio is critical to the equation.

If you take a look at the Gemini 105 for example, you see a beam of 14', roughly the same as many modern monohulls of similar length or 6 inches more than a 60's vintage catamaran like an Iroquois. Iroquois came standard from the factory with mast head floats to prevent turtling when capsized.

Compare that Gemini again to a similar length PDQ 32, and you see a 16 foot beam, which is about a 13% difference in beam, not insignificant.

Im going to avoid suggesting models, because my tastes are a bit funny, but I would say you can figure a bit out using some mathematical ratios. Beam to length ratio is a good starting point. Of course, this is just one screening formula, there are many other features to compare. The plus to a 14' beam is it will fit in many 35 foot marina slips, which can mean big savings for folks keeping their boat in a marina.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Chall - as you know I'm looking to do the same thing you're talking about...buying in the Med. The plan is buy a used cat (maybe even a charter boat), stay in the Med for as long as I want/can - and then head across to to the Carib and see what's next.

I've been looking for a couple of years now and have come to see that the used cat market, especially on the lower end and older boats, seems very overpriced to me. I think this is due to the historical higher prices of cats, along with the relative historical scarcity on the used market due to this factor, etc.

As some have said above - at least on the US market - you get everything from Prouts to IPs to Geminis to Endeavors to Wharrams to kit builds. But you also begin to see some FPs that look to be nice boats - like this 2007 in Cyprus at $136K...

2007 Fountaine Pajot MAHE 36 Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

So that older stuff on the bottom is just not worth the look in my opinion...unless you really want one of those particular boats. These boats coming out of charter just have so much more going for them - even if you have to stretch get an even newer model like this 2011 Leopard...

2011 Leopard 38 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

But as the price of new cats continues come down this will translate into a great used market - maybe not right now due to the damage from Irma and Julia - but soon.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

The Med might be a bit of a strange market. We have a friend who bought a boat in the Med and he described a lot of boats priced way above where they should be, and sitting dry in yards rotting away for years because the absent owners won't budge on price. Apparently, these boats eventually come into such disrepair from neglect that the only people making offers on them are pitching such lowballs (perhaps true value) that the owners just get offended and still refuse to sell.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Thanks for that Mark. I assume you could deal directly with the charter companies for their boats rotating out? I know nothing about the system over there yet.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

You know - come to think of it...with prices moving to where they are, it might even make sense to buy a new one and put it in charter - then keep it.

Has anyone ever done the new boat to charter thing?


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## bacampbe (Mar 17, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> So that older stuff on the bottom is just not worth the look in my opinion...unless you really want one of those particular boats. These boats coming out of charter just have so much more going for them - even if you have to stretch get an even newer model like this 2011 Leopard...


I've been sort of thinking about the same thing at some point in the future, and in past years I've seen a lot of listings for interesting cats rotating out of charter. The downside is that these are almost always the charter versions configured for the maximum berth capacity. The owner's versions (typically with one hull dedicated to a master suite) seem better suited if you plan to spend any length of time onboard.

I thought I saw SunSail advertising 3 cabin Leopard 38s a while back, but all the off-charter listings I have seen have been 4 cabin versions.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Thanks for that Mark. I assume you could deal directly with the charter companies for their boats rotating out? I know nothing about the system over there yet.


Don't know anything about that. My friend was looking at a type of boat not generally chartered.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bacampbe said:


> I've been sort of thinking about the same thing at some point in the future, and in past years I've seen a lot of listings for interesting cats rotating out of charter. The downside is that these are almost always the charter versions configured for the maximum berth capacity. The owner's versions (typically with one hull dedicated to a master suite) seem better suited if you plan to spend any length of time onboard.
> 
> I thought I saw SunSail advertising 3 cabin Leopard 38s a while back, but all the off-charter listings I have seen have been 4 cabin versions.


Agreed. I would definitely prefer an owner version to the 4-cabin version. Here is the Moorings version...

https://www.moorings.com/yachts/sail-fleet/catamarans/3900-3-cabin



















I'd hit it.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

The boats that go into charter are at the discretion of the owners. Charter versions make more money because they pack more people in. Owners who want to take possession of the boat after charter may instead buy the owner's version, but these usually aren't sold directly out of charter because the owners take them.

So it is always hit and miss there, and there will be fewer of the owner's versions available.

Mark


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

colemj said:


> I have met more Aussies than I can count who bought boats in Florida or the Caribbean, took a couple of years leisurely cruising through the Caribe and South Pacific, and sold their boats on return to Oz for such a profit it paid for the boat, the trip, and part of the next boat. They then returned to do it again.
> 
> The first time one was telling me about this (at least what I could understand from his mangled attempt at English), I thought he was putting me on. Then I met another, and another, and another - it got to the point where every Aussie I met was on a second or third round of cruising this way.
> 
> Sounds like quite the racket.


When you also consider that if you have done the coastal cruising thing in OZ(we have) and then you want to embark on some longer term, long distance sailing(we do) if you do buy your overpriced boat here in OZ you basically then have to sign up for a circumnavigation that begins with crossing the Indian Ocean via the Cape of Good Hope (stupid pirates).

Compare that to shaking a boat down in the Med, Caribbean or Mexico and then doing the milk run across the Pacific to sell your boat in OZ for twice what you payed for it and yes there is appeal.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

colemj said:


> We have a friend who bought a boat in the Med and he described a lot of boats priced way above where they should be, and sitting dry in yards rotting away for years because the absent owners won't budge on price. Apparently, these boats eventually come into such disrepair from neglect that the only people making offers on them are pitching such lowballs (perhaps true value) that the owners just get offended and still refuse to sell.
> 
> Mark


So you just wrote my next blog entry for me. We have already been shopping for Monohulls in the Med and this has absolutely been our experience.

There is a boat that I have put an offer on in Italy that has now been out of the water for 2 years. The owner will not budge.

You also got some pretty interesting 'yacht broker' types.

Trying to find a yacht broker in the Med who has more than a passing interest in selling a boat(as opposed to smoking and chatting to his girlfriend and cousin on his mobile all day) is difficult.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> Chall - as you know I'm looking to do the same thing you're talking about...buying in the Med. The plan is buy a used cat (maybe even a charter boat), stay in the Med for as long as I want/can - and then head across to to the Carib and see what's next.
> 
> I've been looking for a couple of years now and have come to see that the used cat market, especially on the lower end and older boats, seems very overpriced to me. I think this is due to the historical higher prices of cats, along with the relative historical scarcity on the used market due to this factor, etc.
> 
> ...


I think it's a good plan.

In my case my wife and I both have dual citizenship and with the kids there is a bunch of culture to lap up in the Med.

As you know we have been fairly frustrated so far in our search for 15-20 year old 'bluewater' boats in the Med.

I guess I am wondering if we need to widen our criteria or even go right back to the drawing board.

As it turns out I am actually in the process of getting a relative of mine based in Cyprus to check out that Fountaine-Pajot-MAHE-36. It is however the 2 cabin variant that may not be the best fit for a family...

I guess I also wonder without really knowing if it is 'too small' I don't have a sense or feel for Cat sizes.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> I think it's a good plan.
> 
> In my case my wife and I both have dual citizenship and with the kids there is a bunch of culture to lap up in the Med.
> 
> ...


Hopefully it's not a "gotcha" with beautiful photos on YW - but a dump in person. There's a 2008 in Montenegro in the same price range - but it looks a bit rough around the edges. And another 2008 with 3-cabins in France right at your price range.

2008 Fountaine Pajot MAHE 36 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com










That one looks pretty well kitted out...and well-taken care of. I trust the photos one this one more than that one in Cyprus.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> Hopefully it's not a "gotcha" with beautiful photos on YW - but a dump in person. There's a 2008 in Montenegro in the same price range - but it looks a bit rough around the edges. And another 2008 with 3-cabins in France right at your price range.
> 
> 2008 Fountaine Pajot MAHE 36 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
> 
> ...


The Cyprus photos do look to be a little too 'brochure' perfect.

That French boat looks great but I would want them to come down a little on price  The French Riviera would not be a bad place to shakedown a boat either followed by Sardinia/Corsica and Sicily for the winter.

Hmmmm. If you consider what we were previously looking at was boats such as this HR 45 asking 393K USD.

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/1992/Hallberg-Rassy-H.R.-45-2266233/Italy?refSource=standard%20listing#.Wn-T-2YjKRs

How much better is a 30 year HR really for crossing the Atlantic/pacific than a modern Cat?

And also by comparison to give you an idea of the Australian market ( and yes it is a 2011 but still twice the price).

2011 Fountaine Pajot Mahe 36 Evolution Sail New and Used Boats for


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have a friend who bought a voyage last year. The thing is a palace and level of construction good. Intention was to both personally use it and charter for a few years and then keep it. Unfortunately it was lost in the fall hurricane season when another cat landed on it. However still a very reasonable way to get into a 50’plus cat at reasonable cost.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Holy crap! $355K?!?!?! I can see why you're looking elsewhere, mate!

Yeah, the French Riviera would be a wonderful shake-down.

As for crossing the pond I don't know specifically about the Mahe. There were a couple of 40's in last year's ARC (Lucia and Lavezzi) - and seemed to fare okay. And here's a Mahe in the stink in the Baltic...






And here's the blog of one that did the crossing...

Sailing Log of a Mahe 36

I don't know why they wouldn't be capable.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Chalk think a better way to think about boats is cost of ownership not just purchase price. Think this depends a lot on where you sail and how you sail.
Ocean sailing wears out stuff more quickly than coastal. Yard labor costs vary widely in different countries. High UV and high salt air regions shorten lifespan of sails and canvas. 
We been thinking seriously about multis. Did the due diligence working out annual costs for our current projected use for three different cats. May bite the bullet but was surprised by projected operating costs.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

outbound said:


> Chalk think a better way to think about boats is cost of ownership not just purchase price. Think this depends a lot on where you sail and how you sail.
> Ocean sailing wears out stuff more quickly than coastal. Yard labor costs vary widely in different countries. High UV and high salt air regions shorten lifespan of sails and canvas.
> We been thinking seriously about multis. Did the due diligence working out annual costs for our current projected use for three different cats. May bite the bullet but was surprised by projected operating costs.


And that is what is still making me hesitate.

Particularly in the Med the nightly rate in season for a 40 foot mono in a lot of marinas is enough to give me heart palpitations let alone a Cat (And anchoring out in the Med is not always an easy option).


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Clear thinking Chall. Especially if one thinks due to basic physics an ocean going cat should be in the mid 40s.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Does anyone have stats on how many people are single handing cats? I suppose there are couples out cruising them. My impression is this was the choice for families often.

Any statistics?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

outbound said:


> Chalk think a better way to think about boats is cost of ownership not just purchase price. Think this depends a lot on where you sail and how you sail.
> Ocean sailing wears out stuff more quickly than coastal. Yard labor costs vary widely in different countries. High UV and high salt air regions shorten lifespan of sails and canvas.
> We been thinking seriously about multis. Did the due diligence working out annual costs for our current projected use for three different cats. May bite the bullet but was surprised by projected operating costs.


Maybe you could give some specific examples of all of this extra maintenance and cost? Perhaps yard fees, but that is really inconsequential unless one is storing the boat for long times.

Other than that, catamarans have the same number of sails (often fewer), the same amount of running rigging (again, often less), less standing rigging, the same amount of canvas (often less because many come with hard biminis), use the same amount of fuel (often less because they require smaller engines), carry a single dinghy/outboard like a mono, use the same chain/anchor (although we get by carrying less chain of a smaller diameter than our mono friends do to the nature of having a lighter boat that can access shallower water) - I can't think of much that is more upkeep than a mono other than the amount of wax used in a polish job.

We have owned a 40' mono and a 40' catamaran. The catamaran uses the same amount of bottom paint as our mono. If it was a dagger board cat, it would use less. A new main for the cat cost more than that for the mono, but the jib costs less. Either way, new sails are a rare purchase, and the difference in price between a mono and a cat is inconsequential (much less than the cost delta between choosing different sailcloths).

Engines are a red herring for several reasons. Unless one has no mechanical ability and is unwilling to learn basics, engine maintenance is cheap regardless. Catamarans have two engines, but not only are they typically smaller than that on a mono, they are each used almost half as much because it is normal to motor on only one unless maneuvering in a slip or similar. So although I have to do two oil/filter changes, etc, I only have to do them half as much as a mono owner. If an engine breaks, we aren't at the mercy of prices wherever we happen to be stuck. We just use the "spare" engine and go to someplace with better prices and service.

Waxing is probably going to cost more - particularly if hired out. How much more is dependent on what one thinks equivalent boats are. A 40' catamaran doesn't have all that much more expanse than a 50' monohull. Also, it depends on one's OCD level. We rarely polish and wax the boat underneath the bridgedeck because it isn't exposed to the sun and can't be seen. So in this, waxing and polishing our catamaran is little different than doing that on our mono.

So again, please point out all of these extra expensive things catamarans have that monos don't, that also degrade in ways monos don't.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> Does anyone have stats on how many people are single handing cats? I suppose there are couples out cruising them. My impression is this was the choice for families often.
> 
> Any statistics?


No statistics, but catamarans aren't the typical boat that single-handers choose for the same reason one doesn't see many single-handers on Tayana 55's. I know two or three only on catamarans, and these are smaller ones (35-40'). However, I also only know a handful of single mono sailors, and they are all on <40' boats.

Lot's and lot's and lot's of couples out on catamarans - the most common configuration, although this is also true for monohulls. They do tend to be the most popular family boat we see. In fact, I'm guessing the families we see out cruising are probably ~75% catamaran - particularly if there is more than one kid.

However, our boat is almost exclusively sailed single-handed. All controls and operation lead to the helm and requires only a single person to raise/lower, reef/unreef, trim/adjust, etc. In fact, there is nothing a second person can do. When you are off watch, you are off watch.

Other than they are large boats for a single person, a catamaran might be the perfect single-handed boat. It is a level, stable platform for any deck, cooking, or personal work and maneuvering under power in a marina or the like is complete control without the need for on-board help.

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Mark, this confirms my hunch that when there are more than a couple the choice today is more the cat than a long LOA mono. Perhaps this may be because the sail planes are smaller compared to the larger interior volume and smaller sail plans represent easier management and maintenance. As they are not displacement hulls they require smaller sail plans I assume.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

chall03 said:


> Particularly in the Med the nightly rate in season for a 40 foot mono in a lot of marinas is enough to give me heart palpitations let alone a Cat (And anchoring out in the Med is not always an easy option).


I would imagine this is why Geminis have sold so well for so long. They have many of the benefits of a cat, without the higher annual operating costs in areas where slip rental and or land storage is part of the equation.

I think this is part of why in places with less infrasctructure like the carribean and parts of the Med cats have become so popular, while in other areas with high population density and lots of marine infrastructure, like US North East and Atlantic Europe they remain considerably less popular.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Arcb said:


> I would imagine this is why Geminis have sold so well for so long. They have many of the benefits of a cat, without the higher annual operating costs in areas where slip rental and or land storage is part of the equation.
> 
> I think this is part of why in places with less infrasctructure like the carribean and parts of the Med cats have become so popular, while in other areas with high population density and lots of marine infrastructure, like US North East and Atlantic Europe they remain considerably less popular. Annual operating cost is very much a real concern for most boaters.


So what you are saying is that the ratio of cats to mono is high in places like the Caribbean so the demand for travel lifts and so is limited because of the fewer boats compared to places like New England and the season is year round so the need to seasonal storing and service is no an issue.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

colemj said:


> The Med might be a bit of a strange market. We have a friend who bought a boat in the Med and he described a lot of boats priced way above where they should be, and sitting dry in yards rotting away for years because the absent owners won't budge on price. Apparently, these boats eventually come into such disrepair from neglect that the only people making offers on them are pitching such lowballs (perhaps true value) that the owners just get offended and still refuse to sell.


A bit of thread drift here, but the norm amongst some of the boats I am looking at (cats and monos) seems to be that they have been out of the water for 12 months or more.

What are some of the traps I should b looking for in a boat thats been sitting in a yard unused for so long?

Look I have my own ideas using a bit of common sense, but as the concept of even storing a boat out of the water for winter is foreign in Australia I am wondering what I may of missed.

Is it just the norm to put a boat in storage for 2 years and then drop it back into the water expecting no problems?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> Mark, this confirms my hunch that when there are more than a couple the choice today is more the cat than a long LOA mono. Perhaps this may be because the sail planes are smaller compared to the larger interior volume and smaller sail plans represent easier management and maintenance. As they are not displacement hulls they require smaller sail plans I assume.


Yes, the sailplan on a catamaran is typically smaller than an equivalent monohull for various reasons - an equivalent mono is 10-15' longer, catamarans are fractionally-rigged (although many monos are too), and the power needed to drive one is often less because of displacement, not heeling, etc.

But I doubt anyone with a family considered this at all when buying one. A catamaran lends itself more naturally to multiple private cabins and multiple heads, and it is like having two separate boats anchored next to each other - send the kids over to the other boat when they are rowdy or you want to sleep in. Or send them up on deck to play, where they aren't stomping around over your head.

When we see kid boats together - mono and cat - the cats always have all of the kids on them. They are having swordfights on the tramps, swinging around on the rigging, and jumping off the hardtops. The mono parents get to spend all day in peace and quiet. If I had kids and planned to travel where other boats with kids were, a mono makes sense...

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> So what you are saying is that the ratio of cats to mono is high in places like the Caribbean so the demand for travel lifts


Just a point: catamarans don't need a travel lift. Pulling them out at a ramp or suitable shoreline with a trailer under the bridgedeck works just fine. In fact, I believe this is probably the most common way they are pulled in Australia, and it is common in Central America. And once out, they can just be plunked down anywhere without regard to stands, leveled, graded, and compacted ground, etc. So infrastructure really isn't a technical problem.

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

S.O. I think what I am saying is in places like New England, Ontario, California, Denmark, UK, Western France etc, boating is popular with the *edit: local population, guys like you and I are day sailing, week ending, and doing short cruises in the summer. Our boats are not our homes, they are hobbies, week end get aways and sporting equipment. They dont need 4 bedrooms because our houses which are maybe an hour away, have all the bedrooms we need.

In places like the Carribean, the locals dont sail, or hardly at all. In those places you have two kinds of sailors. Live aboard cruisers and charterers. The boats ability to accomodate lots of people becomes a higher priority because the boats are essentially homes and hotels on the water. Because the locals in these areas dont boat, the marine infrastructure (docks etc.) Are entirely available to the tourists. In the carribean you dont need to compete with local boaters for the available waterfront real estate.

There is a Danish multi hull manufacturer that makes ocean going multihulls called Dragon Fly, they are trimarans where you can fold the Amas tightly against the hull for docking in busy marinas. So its not like northen Europeans are against multi hulls, but they do have find space for them. Unfortunately I dont think a Dragonfly would work for the OP because they are built more for speed than for living space, they have quite small accomodations. But they are fast!


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chall03 said:


> A
> 
> Is it just the norm to put a boat in storage for 2 years and then drop it back into the water expecting no problems?


When boats are stored on the hard... virtually no maintenance is done. Expect the batts to have been ignored and need to be replaced. I suppose engines for long term storage is another issue. There may be protocols for that, but I am unaware of them. Long termed stored boats may slip into this unintended and without preparation... expecting a launch or a sale. If stored with the rig steep, expect chafe and corrosion unless all running rigging has been removed. Mechanical things will need lubrication and in some cases freeing coming stuck from corrosion. And UV damage if not covered.... could be a factor. Definitely filth...which could include corrosive substances which would normally washed off.

What would you expect from a car left in a lot for two years unattended?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> I think what I am saying is in places like New England, Ontario, California, Denmark, UK, Western France etc, boating is popular with the indiginous population, guys like you and I are day sailing, week ending, and doing short cruises in the summer. Our boats are not our homes, they are hobbies, week end get aways and sporting equipment. They dont need 4 bedrooms because our houses which are maybe an hour away, have all the bedrooms we need.
> 
> In places like the Carribean, the locals dont sail, or hardly at all. In those places you have two kinds of sailors. Live aboard cruisers and charterers. The boats ability to accomodate lots of people becomes a higher priority because the boats are essentially homes and hotels on the water. Because the locals in these areas dont boat, the marine infrastructure (docks etc.) Are entirely available to the tourists. In the carribean you dont need to compete with local boaters for the available waterfront real estate.
> 
> There is a Danish multi hull manufacturer that makes ocean going multihulls called Dragon Fly, they are trimarans where you can fold the Amas tightly against the hull for docking in busy marinas. So its not like northen Europeans are against multi hulls, but they do have find space for them. Unfortunately I dont think a Dragonfly would work for the OP because they are built more for speed than for living space, they have quite small accomodations. But they are fast!


Yes, I've already pointed out several times why a catamaran is not well-suited for New England and similar climes, and why they aren't optimal as day sailors, or weekend boats. I'm not sure why you think this is an important point, or that I'm not understanding it. In fact, I think I was the person who brought this point up originally.

Maybe you should get to some of these places you claim the locals don't sail, so you can be better factually armed. Locals in these places are rabid about sailing and do so constantly. Up until very recent times, including within your lifetime, sailing was the only means of getting around for them. They continue to build and race sailboats like fiends, and sailing is deep in their cultural identity. In places like the San Blas Islands, the locals are still making a living with sailing workboats almost solely.

However, they do not typically keep expensive large boats in marinas for occasional fair-weather trips around local bays - that is definitely a different culture to them, and is actually an unusual aberration world-wide seen only in predominantly white Western European cultures.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb, I see you edited your post while I was writing and pointed it specifically to SanderO. I'll just keep my response anyway because I think it is useful, but ignore the part where I was confuse about why you were addressing me on this point.

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Numbers we ran were for a ~45’ cat. Found that if we went above 30’ beam costs increased dramatically. In our area only runway with suitable hydraulic trailer for big cats is in MA. Sailing program same as now. Summer based in R.I. Winter eastern Caribbean. Rare trip to Canada/Maine and one trip across the pond in near future.
Haul/blocking 1 1/2 x even for short hauls.
Slip 2 x
Wintering 1 3/4 x (we also travel so take occasional year off)
Insurance 1 1/2 x with slightly higher deductible and much higher rider for first 2 passages.
Inability to find local mooring (continue to be on waiting list for current boat). Wife likes slip for home base. I like mooring as think easier when I’m by myself and easier on the boat. She insists on somewhere to safely leave the boat so need a slip while in New England.
Mechanical maintenance and supplies ( fluids, filters etc.) 1 1/4 x
I deleted the spreadsheet so these are from memory. Estimates come from conversations with several cruising couples I know on cats, Nanny Key, Brewers, my broker and folks I know using Trinidad/Granada. 
I understand everyone cruises differently and this has a huge impact on costs. Your program may be different resulting in different costs but above is my best estimate to date. 
Although we mostly anchor we do use a slip on occasion while cruising in New England. Inquired about transient slip availability and expense. If we went to a cat that activity would be dropped.
Please educate me about your program and expenses. Where am I totally off base?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

The mooring solution is economical.. but requires facilities to dock a dink... or trailer it... or inflate/set up every time you need to get to the mother ship. I suspect that the dinghy dock problem exists because, for example in a harbor like Newport RI there simply is not enough dock space to match all the moored boats.... maybe. Same situation on Northport. Slip residents don't need dinks "stored".. but they are very spendy for multis. And imagine if the same number of sailors converted to cats.... only half could have slips!


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Like I said, yard fees will be more for a catamaran, but maybe not significantly than an equivalent monohull (40' cat = 50-55' mono would be my measure).

But the OP isn't looking to store his boat, he is going cruising, and I suspect not to just marina hop. I responded to your caution to him about the additional upkeep and maintenance expenses.

I listed in that post my rational, with specific items generally considered maintenance or upkeep. Insurance has nothing to do with the type of boat - it is based on boat value insured. So there is no difference in insurance between catamarans and monohulls of equal value with equal policy features and restriction. If your quote was different, it is likely you were not comparing apples to apples with regard to boat value, experience, and cruising grounds.

Mechanical and maintenance supplies for a catamaran engine isn't any different than the same engine in a monohull. I described how we, and most we know, operate engines on catamarans - each engine gets ~50% of the use of an engine on a mono.

We don't have a "program", we just fix or replace things as necessary, and our schedule for bottom jobs is the same as everyone else in the areas we cruise.

So which parts on a catamaran are more susceptible to sun and salt than those on a monohull?

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> Like I said, yard fees will be more for a catamaran, but maybe not significantly than an equivalent monohull (40' cat = 50-55' mono would be my measure).


Speaking of apples to apples comparisons. I don't disagree with your assessment here that a high volume cruising cat like a Lagoon would have similar space to a 50-55 foot mono. Nor do I disagree that the cost to store a 40 foot cat would be similar to a 50-55 foot mono. the math is pretty straight forward, yards charge by square foot.

A 40 foot lagoon 40x24= 960 square feet. Say a Jenneau 54 55x16= 880 square feet. The Lagoon is 80 square feet larger foot print than the Jenneau.

For this reason though, you cant compare the ongoing, long term costs, particularly storage and docking costs of a catamaran with a similar length (40 foot) mono. You need to compare it to a much longer mono to get a fair comparison.

I would think that this could be of interest to somebody considering a multi for the first time because they need to know to compare storage and slip costs not with monos of similar length, but with monos that are 30 or 40 % longer. The comparison needs to be with monos of similar square footage. This might be obvious to you (and yes, its obvious to me too), but it may not be obvious to someone considering a cat purchase for the first time, at least not until they have run the numbers.

Edit: In short, Outbound would have to get a pretty small cat to keep his storage costs equal to his Outbound. Maybe 36-38 feet.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I'm not sure the square footage is the correct number to focus on, although the math may come out the same in the end. 

Yards and marinas we have experience with (New England, Mid-Atlantic, and Central America) typically charge 1.5x for a catamaran - haulout, storage, or dockage. Dockage could be 2x in some places that would use 2 slips, but many places we have been has been 1x, especially if it was a shallow slip or face dock. We have never been charged 2x for a slip, and have been charged 1x about 75% of the time. But we are rarely in marinas, so the N is small. We have never been charged more for a mooring.

Using this experience, a 40' catamaran at a 1.5x rate of, say $12/ft, is equal cost to a 60' monohull at $8/ft - $480 for both.

Again, it depends on what one considers "equivalent boats". I think equivalent monohulls are ~25% larger than a catamaran. In this case, storage and dockage is less expensive for a catamarans. 

It only becomes equal if, like the example above, one considers an equivalent monohull as 50% larger than a catamaran. To me, that isn't a good comparison, because my experience is a 50% larger mono is larger in terms of storage and interior space than a cat. Especially so for catamarans <45'.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> A 40 foot lagoon 40x24= 960 square feet. Say a Jenneau 54 55x16= 880 square feet. The Lagoon is 80 square feet larger foot print than the Jenneau.


BTW, the Lagoon 40 beam is 22', which gives it 880 square feet - the same as the Jeanneau 54.

And I don't think we are allowed to use the Jeanneau 54 as an example on Sailnet.

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Mark, 

Around here, they literally charge per square foot ($5.10 Sq foot + 13% HST) for winter storage, no doubt this will vary regionally. I think we agree on the principle concepts, even though details may vary.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> Edit: In short, Outbound would have to get a pretty small cat to keep his storage costs equal to his Outbound. Maybe 36-38 feet.


Again, this is a rough rule of thumb about equivalency. An Outremer 45 classic has half the space as a new Lagoon 45. A Chris White is similar. So for his comparison, an equivalent monohull may be 10-15% larger instead of 25%, and a 42' catamaran may be comparable to his outbound.

Of course, this brings up comparable monohulls too, as I'm pretty sure his 46' Outbound is comparably smaller than some other 46' monos.

But the practical matter is that this doesn't matter at all. If one wants a catamaran, it is unlikely a criteria will be dockage or storage costs, unless one is primarily spreadsheet-driven and dry accounting. If the little bit more that these might cost breaks one's bank, then the whole question of moving to a catamaran is suspect.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

This is a very strange conversation. Guys are working very hard to justify monos by "picking apart" the *presumed* "issues" with cats based on their localized "observations". The one guy with the cat, who also has owned monos, is providing facts and first-hand experience that counters that presumption. Then the other guys go..."Ah but..." and go back to the presumption.

You guys should take a moment and thank Colemj for his informed contributions to the topic. Chall has.

As for costs, as I said before, I think the major factor (potentially) is dockage/storage. And you DO have a second engine which made me *presume* that that would mean double the already substantial (to me) time and cost I put into maintaining one.

But Mark has set me straight on both of those. The rest of the stuff on his list make perfect sense to me that it would be the same or less than on a mono.

Thanks Mark.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> Mark,
> 
> Around here, they literally charge per square foot ($5.10 Sq foot + 13% HST) for winter storage, no doubt this will vary regionally. I think we agree on the principle concepts, even though details may vary.


OK. I can see winter storage charged this way because it is using fixed land area. We weren't charged that way, but the math works out very close to the same either way.

I've definitely never heard dockage and haulout for work charged by the square foot.

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Lower limit in LOA for safe ocean passages with monos is smaller. I stated 45’ not for any issue of equivalence but solely for safety. If I was moving from a 54 Hylas or 28 bcc I would still be looking at a ~45’ -50’ cat for couples cruising. I recall mentioning this earlier. I’ve heard nothing to counter what I believe is a common opinion among cat sailors not just my own. 
Similarly just like with monos there are boats aimed at coastal v ocean cruising. Don’t care what CE class they are. Narrow hulls. Minimal or no bridge deck before the mast. Decent windward performance. Protected helm(s) at deck level with a inside helm are on my and many list for a good cat. 
I laid out the parameters and program for a reason. That’s my reality. Please don’t tell me about oranges when I’m discussing apples tx.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

When I look at cats I don't look at equivalents to monos.
People that like a 34, 38, 44, etc lengths are not looking at 55-60 monos.
Yeah, the difference in motion, the different layout/plan..yeah, it sails differently.... Pros and cons... Adapt and enjoy.
What 'I' would get is horizontal space. Deck, tramps, whatever.
You can actually take a few walking strides on the cat... 
They are not a cave, until you are ready to sleep..and then it doesn't matter.
I think the charter customers, by-in-large, appreciate a sailing/floating condo/rv. It's just so comfortable for a vaca.
A family affair made easy..and less 'sport mode' required.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> As for costs, as I said before, I think the major factor (potentially) is dockage/storage. And you DO have a second engine which made me *presume* that that would mean double the already substantial (to me) time and cost I put into maintaining one.
> 
> But Mark has set me straight on both of those. The rest of the stuff on his list make perfect sense to me that it would be the same or less than on a mono.


As I have said above docking/storage is the thing that probably worries me most.

To give another localised anecdote, when we sailed the east coast of OZ in 2011 we did so in the company of several cats. One in particular a Lightwave 38.

At the time their popularity was rapidly on the rise and our friends were charged often 2x that of a monohull. In more than one case they were also turned away and told there was no room when our little 35ft 4KSB also got tucked in somewhere.

I think situation is changing and if I was heading out into the Pacific or Asia, or was based in the Caribbean and actively cruising then I concur docking costs are not something your too concerned about.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

outbound said:


> Lower limit in LOA for safe ocean passages with monos is smaller. I stated 45' not for any issue of equivalence but solely for safety. If I was moving from a 54 Hylas or 28 bcc I would still be looking at a ~45' -50' cat for couples cruising. I recall mentioning this earlier. I've heard nothing to counter what I believe is a common opinion among cat sailors not just my own.
> Similarly just like with monos there are boats aimed at coastal v ocean cruising. Don't care what CE class they are. Narrow hulls. Minimal or no bridge deck before the mast. Decent windward performance. Protected helm(s) at deck level with a inside helm are on my and many list for a good cat.
> I laid out the parameters and program for a reason. That's my reality. Please don't tell me about oranges when I'm discussing apples tx.


OK, fine. You keep ignoring my question about what parts on catamarans are more susceptible to sun and salt than on monohulls. And what specific maintenance is more expensive and expansive.

These were your exact cautions to the OP. I tried to bring reality to it. I am bringing apples to your apples, but you keep talking about turkeys. Nobody has questioned your criteria for a catamaran - only how you arrived at your increased maintenance and costs.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> A bit of thread drift here, but the norm amongst some of the boats I am looking at (cats and monos) seems to be that they have been out of the water for 12 months or more.
> 
> What are some of the traps I should b looking for in a boat thats been sitting in a yard unused for so long?
> 
> ...


Chall I can give a bit of perspective on that. As you know we put our Hunter on the hard in Florida in August of 2015 after that summer's run with the intent to take her down into the Bahamas the following May of 2016. However, due to the boys' summer schedules and my inability to get away from work for a total of 4-6 weeks that summer (which is what that trip would have required) - we missed our opportunity. It was heartbreaking but it was what it was. I suppose we were lucky in some ways because our boat would have been stored on the hard very near the path of Irma and Julio at their strongest had we taken that trip.

I sold the boat right before Christmas this year. So, she had sat on the hard for 16 months when I sold her. Now, I usually flew down there every couple of months to tend to her...but being on the hard I couldn't do things like run the engine/generator/refrigerator, flush toilets to keep the valves fresh, etc. So, it was mostly cleaning and repairing smaller things, upgrading items, etc.

When the people I sold it to put her in the water last month for the first time in 17 months - here's what was and was not a problem (and remember - this is the harsh Florida sun alluded to above)...

1. I'd stripped all canvass and sails, except for the Sunbrella hatch and Magma grill covers and the running rigging. The Sunbrella held up just fine. The running rigging as well - although I replaced a few halyards last summer in preparation for the trip (and the old lines were still fine after already being up for many years in the Texas sun while we had her in the water at marinas). My thinking on leaving the running rigging up is that I'd do it anyway in the marina so why pull it on the hard? Yes, it would be better - but since I was replacing them as I went, I wasn't as worried about it.

2. The decks would be dirty as hell every time I visited. Dust from the yard and a nearby concrete yard kept her filthy. But she'd clean up just fine very time.

3. The batteries were in great shape. They do not go dead and you do not have to replace them if you have a proper solar set-up. I just topped off the water each time - and I left a couple of night-light fixtures on to keep a bit of draw going. The solar kept the 4 batteries in tip-top condition. And those cheap Amazon LED fixtures/bulbs worked flawlessly 24/7 for 16 months. Go figure.

4. We left the fuel tank full and put some kind of biocide treatment in it that our mechanic had given us. Even so, I recommended that the new owner have the fuel polished before going back in. He did so and said that the fuel had held up remarkably well. He changed the oil and fuel filters and after I walked him through the bleeding procedure - then engine started right up and ran great after sitting for all that time.

5. The Isotherm refrigerator started right up as well - both pump and plate working fine. It had no problems after sitting all that time.

6. The AC started right up and cooled. It had no problems after sitting all that time.

7. The wind instrument was dead. We assume it was due to the direct hit from Irma. But I couldn't go up the mast to check while the boat was on the hard. All the other instruments were fine.

8. The boat developed a couple of small leaks around two of the 4 fixed portlights and one of the hatches. I assumed that this was possibly due to vibration or stress from Irma.

9. The flush valvies on the toilets wouldn't draw raw water or flush and needed to be primed (as you'd imagine).

10. I'd put 3 large buckets of DampRid throughout the boat and changed them out once during that time. I never had any significant problem with mold or bad smell in the boat. I also never had any insect or rodent issues.

Everything was fine. And - again - this was in the "harsh clime" of Florida.

So, things don't HAVE to be bad at all at the end of that storage period. I think it has more to do with how well the boat was taken care of prior to storage - and if it receives any attention at all during that storage time.

We babied _Dawn Treader_ the whole time we owned her. And I really tried to look after her while she was sitting. But honestly, it was the thought of her sitting for another year that broke the camel's back for me and made me pull the trigger on selling. It drove me crazy to not be sailing her and to have her out of her element. And we'd planned on making that decision at this point anyway. So it was just the right thing to do.

So, I hope that helps. I was also very worried about what would happen to all the systems as she sat. I'd read lots of horror stories. I no longer think many of them are valid. At the same time - it will make me want to do a VERY thorough survey if I buy one that has been sitting to make sure it was well taken care of up to that point.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> Chall I can give a bit of perspective on that. As you know we put our Hunter on the hard in Florida in August of 2015 after that summer's run with the intent to take her down into the Bahamas the following May of 2016. However, due to the boys' summer schedules and my inability to get away from work for a total of 4-6 weeks that summer (which is what that trip would have required) - we missed our opportunity. It was heartbreaking but it was what it was. I suppose we were lucky in some ways because our boat would have been stored on the hard very near the path of Irma and Julio at their strongest had we taken that trip.
> 
> I sold the boat right before Christmas this year. So, she had sat on the hard for 16 months when I sold her. Now, I usually flew down there every couple of months to tend to her...but being on the hard I couldn't do things like run the engine/generator/refrigerator, flush toilets to keep the valves fresh, etc. So, it was mostly cleaning and repairing smaller things, upgrading items, etc.
> 
> ...


It does help. A lot.

I too had heard some horror stories, but of course when queried with brokers in Italy I am always told _nessun problema. Normale_

So I appreciate that write up Smack.

I guess that is about what I would expect to find and deal with and nothing there would scare me.

The boat I am specifically concerned about appeared to have been babied up until it went up on the hard. And it is was in cosmetically good condition when I saw it. (The yard of course washes it down and cleans the boat up every time someone comes to inspect for the owner).

I would be getting a survey. Trying to find a cranky, cynical british surveyor who is willing to visit Italy in February.

To give this thread and my other ramblings some context if this boat is in reasonable condition it sounds like the owner is willing to come down enough in price to meet me. But if there is anything substantial I am walking away.

Reality is whenever you buy a new (to you) boat there are always these kind of things that need attention and love anyway.

Wind Trasnducers pretty much need replacing the moment someone sneezes the wrong way.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

A boat like this can take you anywhere even beyond the wall! Who needs a cat when you can have this FANTASTIC,NARCISSISTIC,sailboat.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sailforlife - take it PRWG. There's been far too much of that sewage seeping into the general discussion lately.

We're talking about sailing and boats.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Bought my prior psc which had an interesting history. It was built when company was at Dana Point before the move to the Carolinas. Sat in California for awhile. Then bought and she went to Florida and sat for two years. Then trucked to Mass and stored inside for 4 years and never wet. In fact the stove/oven had never been used and some of electronics not fully wired in.
She had a huge sheet of plastic over her and steel building she was stored in was heated. Still the whole exterior needed to be wooded and revarnished. Fortunately we were able to drain all engine fluids, service everything we could think of and she started up just fine and sailed great. There was really no issues other than the varnishing, stripping and doing the bottom. Did have to Clorox wash some of the inside of the hull and vinegar wash other areas. 
Btw the reason I mentioned UV, passage making and active cruising is that the service cycle shortens significantly. This is true of any boat- mono or multi. Oil changes, standing and running rigging. The whole shebang. When only summer sailing in New England an oil change spring and fall sufficed. Never needed to replace standing rigging but once in 35+ years. Now everything is scheduled and given I’m not going to wait until things fail mid ocean not on an as needed basis. This is true for any boat regardless of number of hulls. For many if not most things costs are the same but any thing there are two of or require a haul costs for multis are higher. At present I can derig/rig my boat myself and get the main off myself and transport it myself. Once I leave my home port I’m going to need to hire someone to help me on a multi. 
I don’t give people the bird even when they are turkeys and actually continue to respect your opinion it’s just multiple other sources compell me to think that if I was to continue my sailing program on a suitable cat my annual costs would be significantly higher and perhaps require I limit expenses in other aspects of my life. It’s that fact that leaves me on the fence. Issues of capsize and safety aren’t boards in that fence as a suitable boat would be equally as safe.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

outbound said:


> I don't give people the bird even when they are turkeys and actually continue to respect your opinion it's just multiple other sources compell me to think that if I was to continue my sailing program on a suitable cat my annual costs would be significantly higher and perhaps require I limit expenses in other aspects of my life. It's that fact that leaves me on the fence. Issues of capsize and safety aren't boards in that fence as a suitable boat would be equally as safe.


Just quietly your current boat ain't half bad anyway!

In terms of the size comparisons you made earlier I am understanding your point.

I did go and have a look at a FP Mahe 36 here locally.

Its a great boat. We would probably enjoy coastal sailing on one but I fear it is too small for our needs especially if we wish to cross a couple of oceans.

Comparatively I have looked at several 42ft monos I would be more than happy to do it in so I tend to feel in a Cat we are probably going to have to look around 40 + which pushes the budget some.

To be clear I am not saying a FP Mahe or similar sized Multi could not cross an ocean, nor am I saying it isn't safe to do so in one. I am nowhere near experienced or qualified enough when it comes to Multis to make such assessments.

I am just saying that I don't know if it would work for us.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> Just quietly your current boat ain't half bad anyway!
> 
> In terms of the size comparisons you made earlier I am understanding your point.
> 
> ...


That's good feedback on the Mahe, Chall. Thanks. I've yet to look.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Take a peak at an O yacht. Seems to be a lot of bang for the buck.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chall03 said:


> I did go and have a look at a FP Mahe 36 here locally.
> 
> Its a great boat. We would probably enjoy coastal sailing on one but I fear it is too small for our needs especially if we wish to cross a couple of oceans.


I would agree that. I've been on a couple, and the Mahe is not an optimum boat for crossing multiple oceans. Maybe a single cross to cruise long-time in an area. They were designed for a coastal niche, and are a great boat for that, but would probably need to have some work and upgrades for serious and multiple long offshores. The costs of those would probably move the boat into the market of existing larger boats.

Mark


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

Chall,

Take a look at a Fusion 40, Aussie kit performance cat. might be outside of budget but a great boat.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

The Fusion 40 is a great Lidgard design, but they are all kit-built by home builders, so the quality can vary quite a bit. I have been on a few, and none of them came even close to meeting the expected displacement. This shouldn't be construed that all of them are this way.

I'm going to guess that these will be 3-4x more money than Chall is looking to spend, and most will probably be for sale in OZ, which makes things worse. For the same amount, IMO one could do better. 

But they are a great design, and the kit build leaves far less to go wrong and hidden for a home builder - which gives one a bit more security when buying used.

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> The Fusion 40 is a great Lidgard design, but they are all kit-built by home builders, so the quality can vary quite a bit. I have been on a few, and none of them came even close to meeting the expected displacement. This shouldn't be construed that all of them are this way.
> 
> I'm going to guess that these will be 3-4x more money than Chall is looking to spend, and most will probably be for sale in OZ, which makes things worse. For the same amount, IMO one could do better.
> 
> ...


with rare exceptions... home built will not achieve the fit and finish of professional boat builders for their skills and their machinery.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

colemj said:


> The Fusion 40 is a great Lidgard design, but they are all kit-built by home builders, so the quality can vary quite a bit. I have been on a few, and none of them came even close to meeting the expected displacement. This shouldn't be construed that all of them are this way.
> 
> I'm going to guess that these will be 3-4x more money than Chall is looking to spend, and most will probably be for sale in OZ, which makes things worse. For the same amount, IMO one could do better.
> 
> ...


I met a Fusion 40 (Boomerang) while in the Bahamas 2009/2010. The kit was brought to Florida and finished by a professional yard / builder while supervised by the owner (a very experienced sailor). Fit and finish was absolutely top notch. I think he finally sold the boat in the PNW.

I think you are right about price being way above budget.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> with rare exceptions... home built will not achieve the fit and finish of professional boat builders for their skills and their machinery.


On the contrary, many of the large number production boats have very modest fit and finish quality (I'm being generous), while many home builders put a lot more effort into it.

I agree that home built can run the spectrum in this regard, while production built will be more uniformly done at whatever level is accepted.

Most home builders do so for reasons of performance - they want a good design and want to keep it light. So often these boats are more simple interiors, or lack a lot of heavy Corian, teak trim, solid wood doors, etc. This is different than fit and finish quality, though.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

jorgenl said:


> I met a Fusion 40 (Boomerang) while in the Bahamas 2009/2010. The kit was brought to Florida and finished by a professional yard / builder while supervised by the owner (a very experienced sailor). Fit and finish was absolutely top notch. I think he finally sold the boat in the PNW.
> 
> I think you are right about price being way above budget.


I've also been on Boomerang, and agree he/they did a great job with it. Massively outfitted with high quality stuff. Maybe a bit too much stuff, though, as that boat is the heaviest Fusion I've seen, and its sterns were dragging quite a bit.

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> On the contrary, many of the large number production boats have very modest fit and finish quality (I'm being generous), while many home builders put a lot more effort into it.
> 
> I agree that home built can run the spectrum in this regard, while production built will be more uniformly done at whatever level is accepted.
> 
> ...


Mark I have to disagree... DIYers can't afford the expense of complex molds for a one off... You can find some very good joinery from DIYers... but even high end joinery needs expensive stationary machinery and tooling. I don't see this... I am not saying it's not possible and I suppose finishing a manufactured hull can yield great results... it's just a different "look". Not worth arguing about.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> Mark I have to disagree... DIYers can't afford the expense of complex molds for a one off... You can find some very good joinery from DIYers... but even high end joinery needs expensive stationary machinery and tooling. I don't see this... I am not saying it's not possible and I suppose finishing a manufactured hull can yield great results... it's just a different "look". Not worth arguing about.


Not meaning to argue, but have you been on many of the new production boats? The glasswork and joinery, along with the trim and similar, isn't what you expect on a Contest.

Molds aren't necessary for good work, and catamaran owners and builders are more accepting of interiors that are not caves of varnished trees turned into museum pieces by journeyman craftsmen. In fact, the aesthetics most often sought by cat buyers are high-tech looks - which are clean and simple and free of wood. So joinery in the traditional sense doesn't even come into play much with catamarans.

There is a new Balance 526 anchored next to us at the moment, and I have been observing some things about it. Check out its interior in the pic. This is what buyers want, and it isn't too difficult for a home builder to achieve similar results.

Just for fun is the interior of an Outremer 45. Both of these are higher end quality boats.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I agree Mark. Joinery has long been a yardstick for boat quality - when it really has absolutely ZERO to do with the function or performance of the boat (the "IKEA furniture" argument). I absolutely love great woodworking, but I could care less about it in relation to the overall nature of the boat. Why am I paying top-dollar for something that doesn't really matter in the long run in terms of sailing and cruising?

A great example of this is our previous Hunter compared to an IP that I was on in Florida. As you can see in the photo of our old Hunter, the woodworking is pretty and plentiful for a Hunter - but extremely basic...










Compare that with the IP which has rabbeted and/or dovetail joints, inlaid vent slats, premium hardware, etc.










It's incredible work - but not where I want the money I'm putting into a boat to go.

What I DO expect is that these modern boat builders must do IKEA WAY, WAY better than IKEA. Same modern aesthetic that is currently in demand, but much higher quality. And from what I've seen on many modern production boats - they do.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

colemj said:


> I've also been on Boomerang, and agree he/they did a great job with it. Massively outfitted with high quality stuff. Maybe a bit too much stuff, though, as that boat is the heaviest Fusion I've seen, and its sterns were dragging quite a bit.
> 
> Mark


Don introduced me to Redbreast, my favorite Irish whisky since then...;-)


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Clearly catamarans are an entirely new aesthetic in the marine environment... more associated with the finish or motor yachts... or as daddy refers to... the Ikea look. Ikea look is really an inexpensive italian modern. Those who are not loving this look are coming from a traditional marine interior sensibility. And there are now monos with the "ikea" look out there these days. Darker woods are perceived as warm. And this is the same sensibility that drives people to build homes with "traditional" details essentially stuck on. Modernism has always been perceived as cold feeling and you see some old rugs and antigues in the interior to warm the chill.

The desire for warm and cozy is likely linked to the emotional need to feel secure. Modernist architecture is seen as almost hostile to humans.

I think this the reality.... Fast is sleek and modern lines... Modernism has a form follows function as well as an emotional irrational component.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

jorgenl said:


> Don introduced me to Redbreast, my favorite Irish whisky since then...;-)


Try sunscreen.

.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Try sunscreen.
> 
> .


I was always under the impression that Irish Whisky was for Irish Coffee only, but the good ones are rather good.

Same thing with Bourbon, I thought Jack & Coke only but again, the good ones are good. ;-)

Now, Bundy Rum on the other hand....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Try sunscreen.
> 
> .


Isn't that what Baileys is?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> What I DO expect is that these modern boat builders must do IKEA WAY, WAY better than IKEA. Same modern aesthetic that is currently in demand, but much higher quality.


The aesthetics is just design. Many of these catamaran interiors are vacuum bagged cored composites with a veneer on the outside (if a wood or other look is wanted). I don't know if this is higher quality than IKEA, but it certainly is a lot lighter and more expensive to produce.

Most of the people on catamarans are not looking for a warm and cozy secure feeling, because most are in climates where that works against one's psychology. Same reason they aren't adding fireplaces.

The intrinsic being of a catamaran design is open, airy, lots of light, and big views. It is actually difficult to make them feel the other way - and that is where your form follows function comment comes in SanderO. However, it is less about fast and sleek, or even a concerted attempt at "modern" - it is more about just letting the boat be what it is.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Mark raises a good point. It's interesting to look at the stylistic treatments of boats over the years - both cat and mono...

This 1985 Prout has an interior that mirrors a lot of what is going on above in our Hunter...










Then, to Mark's point, you have a 1993 Island Packet cat with a much lighter treatment (both in terms of illumination and materials)...










And now you have much more Eurocentric modernist design sensibilities in both the cats and monos...

The new FP Lucia 40...










And Beneteau's new Leopard 45...










Then the new Beneteau O55.1...









(Also available in dark wood finish if you want it).

This is very high quality design across the board. There's no question about it. It's what defines modern luxury these days stylistically speaking. BUT...

Then you compare the above direction to something like a new Hallberg-Rassey 55 from the snowbound nether regions...










Again...quality for sure, but it looks very, very dated now...like the smoking room at the old boys' club. Put that in the Med or Caribbean and it certainly doesn't appeal in the same way as in the North Sea.

And finally, the Discovery 55...










And their Bluewater 50 Cat...










The cat is simpler - but still of very high quality.

If you look through the detailing in any of these boats - you'll see quality. It will vary to some degree - but the whole IKEA argument just doesn't hold up. That argument is far more about style and quality. And it's coming from a biased, outdated point of view I think.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

of the monos above;

HR55 vs. Bene 55 =easy choice regardless of cruising grounds... HR55 is the chicken dinnah.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Is this any better Jorgs?


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Is this any better Jorgs?


Same same.

Interior styling has to fit i it's context, for our beach side condo, light wood floors and European minimalist furniture works well.

For our house on the horse farm I prefer more trad, heavy furniture.

I think the modern interiors work well on multis for the reason Mark has already stated.

For a mono I prefer the HR style interior.

Next boat will be a multi if cruising the Caribbean.

Much nicer platform for this type of cruising.

If RTW or crossing oceans =Amel 54.

No real logic behind the mono choice for RTW / X-Oceans - just gut feel.


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

*Re: Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy, no controversy, cat thread*

These nuts apparently crossed the Atlantic Ocean in Hobie Wave


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Ahhmmmmm yeah...


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Pretty sure the Hobie Wave thing is a prank, but in 1987 two dudes really did cross the Atlantic on a Hobie 18, which is almost as nuts.

Apparently they were in pretty rough shape by the end, living off like 500 calories a day.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

For those interested Sailing La Vagabonde just hit the Caribbean, unflipped. 

14 day crossing.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

That Outremer is pretty freakin' impressive, I must say.

Do you know if it was just the two of them on the crossing?


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

Not a Hobie but pretty amazing


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> That Outremer is pretty freakin' impressive, I must say.
> 
> Do you know if it was just the two of them on the crossing?


I know but cant say :|


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Find above not logical. Believe basic paradigm to be incorrect.
When you buy a truck you pay more as load carrying ability increases this translates into increasing weight of the vehicle. Be it pick up trucks, straight frames or tractor trailer. Bigger/stronger, heavier suspension, heavier frame, engine etc. Then you think about conveniences and comfort for the driver.
When you buy a supercar or race car you pay increasingly progressively obscene amounts of money for each ounce of weight taken off the vehicle. Then you think about what can be done to make the driver function better and move the car faster.
Same applies here. This dynamic goes back to the ultralights of the 60s. It’s nothing new. Vacuum bagging panels, using prepreg, baking large boats in huge high tech ovens isn’t cheap. Nor is hand constructing a turbo Bentley. Once one thinks about whether the vessel is a displacement hull meant to function solely in displacement mode or plane/foil the aesthetic of the infill is in large measure determined.
Sure you have many pretenders in production boat aesthetics. But it’s like putting ground effects on a econobox. Also for purposes of marketing there’s a disconnect between the surface look and quality of construction. 
Much is made of wood looks in the above pretty pictures. Verneers can be done cheaply or be quite expensive. Take a walk through NEB or similar yard. Then walk through LM. Then go up to Covey.
You’ll see solid wood built to last beautifully through multiple generations, sandings, and refinishings and high tech wood with the strength of steel at nominal weight. With current technologies you can achieve a particular “ look” (race boat/ luxury boat/ commercial boat) and keep to a certain price point. Or the “look” can evolve from the function of the vessel and expections of the owner. 
Unfortunately at present believe the “look” comes first in production boats as selling is what drives production. The function comes in second.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Thanks for the examples of several boat interiors. Compact interiors of monos make sense because they heel when sailed... and it is unsafe to have empty space with nothing to hold on to or brace oneself in a seaway. I suppose the calculus which also drove the FORM of the interiors is that with more stable steady motion... the interior design's need to allow people to safely move through them has lessened. And for sure at anchor this need is not there.

I would point out that open and "airy" may not always be desirable in the tropics. The sunlight and heat can be very oppressive at times and "escaping" into a cool dark interior can be relaxing. Who wants to wear sun glasses all the time... even when inside. Of course you're not inside as much as you are outside in the tropics... but when you do need to escape the bright and heat... a well insulated, ventilated even darker interior can be relaxing.

I would further point out that the joinery in a sailboat is not furniture "tacked" to the sole. For the most part it is integral to the hull stiffness... same as bulkheads. However structurally cats are different from monos... 

In relating interiors of sailing vessels to interior architecture it should be noted that psychologically people seem to be more comfortable with "traditional" than they are with moderism. Sure there are expensive sleek modernist examples of architecture and interior architect being built today. But I would argue that the vast majority where big money is spent is "neo classical/traditional". This is more about psychological motivations than form follows function. In terms of plans... there has only been relatively minor changes and differences between modern and neo classical plans. This is because the hierarchy and functional relationship of interior spaces.

There is also somewhat of a friction in straight line modernism with the functional and elegant curves related to fluid dynamics... boats, planes and cars. Straight is economical to produce... often more functional. What we seen in boat interiors historically is a softening of the straight, a concession to the curve in a harmonious "marine interior geometry". I suspect the historical examples of historical success... make the unsuccessful (in to many eyes) modernist "Ikea" interiors stand out as failures.

The cat interiors I see are still working at establishing a new interior sensibility for a marine interior. It's a new territory and the only reference are the old monos. But note how many of the newer and larger monos are having a go at this new "aesthetic". I suspect it may take time for this to be universally accepted as people cling to what has been psychologically historically comfortable.

NB that larger and wider platforms that move around... heal and yawl need "things" to support people moving inside them. What I see is to much of "unseaworthy" but attractive interior spaces. To make them more seaworthy is to clutter them . It's an inherent contradiction with no perfect solution I fear.

And there really was almost no gradual "evolution" of the interior of these boats.... they took a big step into "new". Perhaps this offered many what they wanted while losing something that they had... in both the psychological and functional sense.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

*Re: Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy, no controversy, cat thread*

Nice looking custom Chris White 54.
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/199...hamas?refSource=enhanced listing#.WoWF4cpOmhA

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> I know but cant say :|


Actually I looked on their Twitter feed and think I know the answer. Impressive.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

ThereYouAre said:


> Not a Hobie but pretty amazing


11 days! That is incredible. I like the setup of that boat with the extended wings that can double as a "tent" or a hiking support. Very cool.

The dragons are losing their bite.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

*Re: Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy, no controversy, cat thread*



smj said:


> Nice looking custom Chris White 54.
> 1994 Custom Catamaran Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I just threw up in my mouth a little. $150K?!?!?!?




























I love this part...



> While she does need some cosmetic projects she is ready to go to work and in fact has all of the necessary equipment and supplies on board including snorkeling gear, coolers, 40 life vests and all safety gear.


Well, now I understand the asking price.

Are Chris White designs "home built"? I'm seem to recall that to be case. I remember a guy from Oz on stuffiminto who was building a CW I think. Was doing a nice job but had been at it for years and years.


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## gonecrusin (Aug 23, 2016)

SanderO said:


> Thanks for the examples of several boat interiors. Compact interiors of monos make sense because they heel when sailed... and it is unsafe to have empty space with nothing to hold on to or brace oneself in a seaway. I suppose the calculus which also drove the FORM of the interiors is that with more stable steady motion... the interior design's need to allow people to safely move through them has lessened. And for sure at anchor this need is not there.
> 
> I would point out that open and "airy" may not always be desirable in the tropics. The sunlight and heat can be very oppressive at times and "escaping" into a cool dark interior can be relaxing. Who wants to wear sun glasses all the time... even when inside. Of course you're not inside as much as you are outside in the tropics... but when you do need to escape the bright and heat... a well insulated, ventilated even darker interior can be relaxing.
> 
> ...


Your notes are spot on, we don't want a light, bright, open interior. We much prefer a darker teak interior, it's cooler and easier on the eyes, we've even painted the ceilings of our hard dodger and bimini a flat dark blue to cut the glare when on deck. We also agree that we don't want a dance floor below and prefer a more closed in saloon for passages. The wonderful open spaces enjoyed at anchor is terrible when underway. Being able to brace oneself while moving about in a seaway is a good thing.

Some argue they are at anchor most of the time and want the openness, that's fair but we've sailed in enough crappy weather to think otherwise. Pick your poison.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

*Re: Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy, no controversy, cat thread*



smackdaddy said:


> I just threw up in my mouth a little. $150K?!?!?!?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some CW are home built but quite a few are built by custom builders. She's in rough shape but with a strip plank hull should be strong and light.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

*Re: Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy, no controversy, cat thread*

Here's one that makes me drool. Also strip plank construction.
http://www.catamaransite.com/Whitehaven-11-catamaran-for-sale-1.html

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

At present and for many years Chris White has been building his own boats. The present Atlantic mastfoils are built in chili to the best of my recall. I’ve sailed on one offs to his design but those have to my knowledge been built in established yards. I’ve never seen a home built Chris White but can’t say they don’t exist. The boat posted above appears to have been unloved and uncared for being used as a commercial platform. This is not representative of his portfolio.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SanderO said:


> The cat interiors I see are still working at establishing a new interior sensibility for a marine interior. It's a new territory and the only reference are the old monos. But note how many of the newer and larger monos are having a go at this new "aesthetic". I suspect it may take time for this to be universally accepted as people cling to what has been psychologically historically comfortable.
> 
> And there really was almost no gradual "evolution" of the interior of these boats.... they took a big step into "new". Perhaps this offered many what they wanted while losing something that they had... in both the psychological and functional sense.


Yeah - this is essentially what I've been saying. What I find amusing about the IKEA put-down is that it's primarily an older American audience pulling the only conceptual reference they have to Euro-modernist design. They equate the design aesthetic itself with the quality of goods at a single low-cost furniture store. That really shows the ignorance and bias of the argument in not even understanding what *IKEA* is about.

And on your point about "evolution" - I'm not so sure about that. Even 25 years ago Beneteau was pushing the envelop of design with its interiors...










I can't remember for certain, but I think it was Frank Gehry who contributed to the above design.

Again, these kinds of arguments are typically from a very American-traditionalist viewpoint. People tend to see only what they want to see. This new design aesthetic has been coming a long time. I'm glad it's here. Go the IKEA!

It's WAY better than the effort in the above pic (though that was very chick in the days of Wham!),


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Yeah - this is essentially what I've been saying. What I find amusing about the IKEA put-down is that it's primarily an older American audience pulling the only conceptual reference they have to Euro-modernist design. They equate the design aesthetic itself with the quality of goods at a single low-cost furniture store. That really shows the ignorance and bias of the argument in not even understanding what *IKEA* is about.
> 
> And on your point about "evolution" - I'm not so sure about that. Even 25 years ago Beneteau was pushing the envelop of design with its interiors...
> 
> ...


No it wasn't frank Gehry... it was Philipe Stark.

The deal with Ikea vernacular was that so much of it lacks any "detail" and in that sense it derives from Italian moderism... from which Scandinavian modern was derived

"Emerging in the 1950s alongside the modernist movement in Europe and America, Scandinavian modern style prioritized democratic, affordable, and sleek furnishings and interiors. Clean lines, functional furnishings, and a neutral palette were hallmarks of modernist style everywhere. But the Scandinavian design of the era was also heavily influenced by the Nordic region's cold, short winter days and a desire for interiors to be cozy yet bright."

Italian Modern design summary here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_design

"After World War II, however, was the period in which Italy had a true avant-garde in interior design. With the fall of Fascism, rise of Socialism and the 1946 RIMA exhibition, Italian talents in interior decorating were made evident, and with the Italian economic miracle, Italy saw a growth in industrial production and also mass-made furniture. Yet, the 1960s and 1970s saw Italian interior design reach its pinnacle of stylishness, and by that point, with Pop and post-modern interiors, the phrases "Bel Design" and "Linea Italiana" entered the vocabulary of furniture design.[2"

Daddy you need to brush up your design history a bit. But modernism was an industrial response to the age of craft and hand made furniture and interiors.

The odd thing about boat interiors is that are largely hand made... a throw back to the art nouveau era. The "ikea interiors" may not be manufactured as Ikea is, but they use the same lines and themes and don't look hand made.

The impractical teak deck is also a craft intensive install... and you'll see almost no teak on cats for this reason (as well as weight) I suspect.

Cats have a "machine" look message... monos until recently had a hand made look message.... The machine look is one people are more comfortable with because of cars and trains and so on... even mass produced furniture. This is what forms the sensibilities of the (not design educated) consumers... exposure and context... and analogy.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SanderO said:


> No it wasn't frank Gehry... it was Philipe Stark.


That's right. This is Gehry's yacht...



















Definitely not IKEA. My bad.



SanderO said:


> The deal with Ikea vernacular was that so much of it lacks any "detail" and in that sense it derives from Italian moderism... from which Scandinavian modern was derived
> 
> "Emerging in the 1950s alongside the modernist movement in Europe and America, Scandinavian modern style prioritized democratic, affordable, and sleek furnishings and interiors. Clean lines, functional furnishings, and a neutral palette were hallmarks of modernist style everywhere. But the Scandinavian design of the era was also heavily influenced by the Nordic region's cold, short winter days and a desire for interiors to be cozy yet bright."
> 
> ...


Actually, you just laid out exactly what I said. Euro-modernism is the underlying drive to all of this. So I think my history is pretty spot on...unless Italy wasn't part of Europe.

Remember, you also had Bauhaus and De Stijl driving similar influences at that same time. It's just that the Italians had more refined taste (which is why I drive a Maserati).

But I think you're a bit off base saying that modernism was somehow at odds with hand made craft. The modernist movement was just a vast simplification of style at that time (anti-adornment). That's all. It didn't _negate_ craftsmanship - it just changed its focus. At the same time, that force alone lent itself to easier mass production and a reduction in required "artistry/craft" in the end product.

And that's why architecture is a rapidly dying profession. But I digress.



SanderO said:


> The odd thing about boat interiors is that are largely hand made... a throw back to the art nouveau era.


Actually, no they're not. Even IP was not "hand-making" their interiors. Virtually everything is computer-cut and assembled into a modular component. Have you seen the Hinckley Bermuda 50? Hand _finished_? Maybe. But there's no art nouveau in any surviving volume boat manufacturer these days that I know of - even the traditional brands that are left. Which builder(s) are you talking about?



SanderO said:


> The "ikea interiors" may not be manufactured as Ikea is, but they use the same lines and themes and don't look hand made.
> 
> The impractical teak deck is also a craft intensive install... and you'll see almost no teak on cats for this reason (as well as weight) I suspect.


Again, what boat out there truly has a "hand-made" interior?

One of the big reasons you don't see teak decks is not just that they are expensive to source and install but: a) they were a left-over design element from yesteryear - like the wood paneling on a '70s station wagon - so are really just an artifice that serves no function (back to the modernist ideal); and, b) they are a freakin' nightmare to maintain. I would *never* buy a boat with even the fake stuff. It just makes no sense unless you're in a cold climate which drives that tradition (sorry Bavaria and Hanse).



SanderO said:


> Cats have a "machine" look message... monos until recently had a hand made look message.... The machine look is one people are more comfortable with because of cars and trains and so on... even mass produced furniture. This is what forms the sensibilities of the (not design educated) consumers... exposure and context... and analogy.


I think you're over-thinking it a bit. This new aesthetic just looks great and makes sense. And the cost benefits make this all much more accessible to a much wider buyer base. That's why it's in such high demand, and why IKEA is dominating the world even with cheap particle board that's super fly.

PS - Having owned a yacht in the "tropics" it is definitely NOT comfortable down below in 95 degree heat...regardless of how dark you make it.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Daddy, much of what you write is fine. Some of it is more how you want to look at it perhaps because you are "invested" in your beliefs... not uncommon.

CADCAM is relatively new... I would think... my boat was built in 85 and I visited the factory. The plans were hand drawn so it seems unlikely that they would use CADCAM.... they didn't. The work and I saw the interiors being built were done by hand by joiners using stationary and portable power tools. As I have written many times on this forum... my views are informed by my personal experience and 32+ years of owning and sailing Shiva, a Contest 36s.

I can't comment on Hinckley, Hunter, Pearson, Catalina, IP, Morris or any other boat building from the era when I became boat aware. It wouldn't surprize me that boat parts are now manufactured with CADCAM and C&C machining.

I lived on my boat in the Eastern Caribe for several years. I used a portable "tent" to provide shade and it did lower the temps 10 degrees. My boat was quite comfortable and the dark interior soothing. So my experience is not the same as yours. Just as you are thrilled with these light exposed spacious interiors.... I am turned off by most of them (not all) whether cat or mono... And many will claim modernist interiors are too stark and cold and uninviting... And vivre la difference.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

outbound said:


> At present and for many years Chris White has been building his own boats.


Chris White does not build his own boats. He has no construction facilities. From his website: _Chris White Designs works closely with owners and builders, providing personalized service to boat owners, including construction oversight, brokerage of CWD boats, and ongoing consultation._

There are a couple of yards he works closely with, but not as a builder - only a consultant. Alwoplast, in Chile build boats from several designers - Chris White is only one. Aquidneck and other companies also build his designs.

CW also sells plans for some of his boats to home builders, as he has in the past. I've been on an Atlantic 40 (precursor to the 42) that was home-built.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

*Re: Oyster is closing its doors*

I'm seeing more and more younger couples on Youtube moving to cats...






(I'll be interested to see where this one goes. I have my concerns.)

First, with all the new Youtube channels of younger people getting into sailing it shows an actual resurgence in interest in the next generation. And with the growing interest in cats over monos - it validates those market numbers we discussed earlier. Unless some manufacturer in the US can come up with a good multi solution, the game may be over.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

^^^Hey - this isn't the thread I posted that into. I posted it in Chall's Oyster thread where Chall, Mark, myself, and others did a lot of work covering various aspects and examples of mutlihulls.

Are you mods going to move those posts to another thread - or did you just nuke all of that? A lot of work went into that content and it was very informative for most readers.

I hope you're just moving it and/or renaming it as requested. This thread is pretty specific to what Chall is looking for - not the general market for mutlis.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> ^^^Hey - this isn't the thread I posted that into. I posted it in Chall's Oyster thread where Chall, Mark, myself, and others did a lot of work covering various aspects and examples of mutlihulls.
> 
> Are you mods going to move those posts to another thread - or did you just nuke all of that? A lot of work went into that content and it was very informative for most readers.


Whatever their doing......its a secret apparently 



smackdaddy said:


> This thread is pretty specific to what Chall is looking for - not the general market for mutlis.


Look I am always happy to share my threads.
Hey the Sailnet I joined was founded on thread drift.

Meanwhile we have come across a cat of some interest closer to home. I still like the idea of our buy in the Med plan but A FP Athena 38 (that is not in the prettiest of conditions admittedly) is on the market for a very reasonable price here in OZ. Contradicting my earlier comments about our local market. Whether this specific boat is for us or not I am going to go and inspect I think.

2001 Fountaine Pajot Athena 38 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> Whatever their doing......its a secret apparently


I'm now getting gamed by the mods? Awesome.



chall03 said:


> Meanwhile we have come across a cat of some interest closer to home. I still like the idea of our buy in the Med plan but A FP Athena 38 (that is not in the prettiest of conditions admittedly) is on the market for a very reasonable price here in OZ. Contradicting my earlier comments about our local market. Whether this specific boat is for us or not I am going to go and inspect I think.
> 
> 2001 Fountaine Pajot Athena 38 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale


That is very nice looking boat Chall! Good luck!


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

chall03 said:


> Whatever their doing......its a secret apparently
> 
> Look I am always happy to share my threads.
> Hey the Sailnet I joined was founded on thread drift.
> ...


and it is in Mooloolaba!

QLDER!!!!!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

*Re: Oyster is closing its doors*

Yeah, I agree that there's still a lot in this. But their dissemination of the documentation via the site certainly makes it feel like *they* think it's over. In fact, so over that they'd be willing to throw something like this out publicly...



> Where did all the cash go?
> 
> Several peculiarities in the financial statements in Oyster's and their parent company's financial reports during 2012-2016 may point to the fact that there, allegedly, could be a premeditated withdrawal of assets from the company. We are preparing a comprehensive study of the same and will publish it when more information becomes available for public use.


That made me raise an eyebrow.

Anyway, speaking of catamarans - have you seen the interior of a Neel? Insane!

_(Posted with Chall's permission.)_




_(Posted with Chall's permission.)_


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Oh look a Cat has thread jumped again


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Sorry Chall. I know that the Neel has zero to do with your thread here about $150K cruising cats - but the mods keep moving my posts from our other discussion about the new cat market to this thread. I certainly didn't put it here. I don't want to be blamed for busting the "happy, happy no controversial" rule.

So since they've not allowed other multi threads, aside from that capsize thread started by The Posse as a baiting exercise, and since they won't allow the market conversation to *continue* in your Oyster thread (despite your insistence it was okay to do so), and since they will neither split out that multi conversation nor change the name of the thread as we've requested - I don't know what else to do really. I'm certainly trying to follow forum protocol.

I have to say it's kind of weird to now seemingly be getting "trolled" by the actual gatekeepers. Is it open season now? Are they trying to force me into that other baiting thread for some reason? Can I take the gloves off? I've not heard a single word since the thread closure from anyone. So I don't know.

Again, sorry about this Neel post being put in this thread of yours. I had nothing to do with that.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Sorry Chall. I know that the Neel has zero to do with your thread here about $150K cruising cats - but the mods keep moving my posts from our other discussion about the new cat market to this thread. I certainly didn't put it here.
> 
> So since they've not allowed other multi threads, aside from that capsize thread started by The Posse as a baiting exercise, and since they won't allow the market conversation to *continue* in your Oyster thread (despite your insistence it was okay to do so), and since they will neither split out that multi conversation nor change the name of the thread as we've requested - I don't know what else to do really. I'm certainly trying to follow forum protocol.
> 
> ...


I don't get WHY you do this.
Is something not going YOUR way and you want it made public?

Just send him a pm.....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

RegisteredUser said:


> Is something not going YOUR way and you want it made public?


It already is public, Reg. I was just explaining to Chall why my post ended up here in this thread. It was not my doing and I wanted him to know that. I'm just trying to continue a previous conversation about the new multi market and models. It's really that simple.

Where do you suggest we do that?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

smackdaddy said:


> Where do you suggest we do that?


Here: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...arity-interesting-designs.html#post2051397578



smackdaddy said:


> So since they've not allowed other multi threads, aside from that capsize thread started (Personal Attack removed Jeff_H) they won't allow the market conversation to continue in your Oyster thread (despite your insistence it was okay to do so), and since they will neither split out that multi conversation nor change the name of the thread as we've requested - I don't know what else to do really. I'm certainly trying to follow forum protocol.


So if we are going to air this in public, I call total BS on this last smoldering piece of effluent. When your last Multihull thread was pulled you were told that you can't start a multihull thread where you only will allow positive opinions. But you were never told you could not start a multihull thread.

And to throw a tantrum and randomly dump new models of multihulls into the middle of the Oyster thread is not acceptable either, which is why I have pulled your random droppings out of the middle of the Oyster thread and placed them here. I have been dumping your multihull posts here because they at least had a slight bit of relevance to Chall's topic. But also, if and when it came time to move some posts to a more general multihull thread, I would know where to find them rather than having to go scrolling through the Oyster thread to pick the fly poop out of the pepper. And at least if they are here the comments by others are more likely to be relevant to multihulls.

You and Chall have asked the moderators to move the multihull discussions out of the Oyster thread and into a new thread. I told Chall that at face value that appeals to me but its not that simple because for that new thread to make sense it also means moving other member's comments as well. When I went back and looked at the how that would be done, many of the posts contained a mixture of the Oyster discussion and the Multihull discussion, so effectively, the choice came down to repeating posts in both threads which would then contain discussion points that are irrelevant to the thread, or it means editing a member's post to split it in two (something that I see as being beyond the appropriate limits as a moderator except in the case of a rules violation.)

In any event, sorting and moving posts out of the Oyster thread may happen, buts its not happening quickly.

And so that's where it stands.

Jeff


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> With this said I don't want to mess up Chall's thread anymore. So it's done unless you want to discuss it further here or elsewhere.
> 
> I'll start manually moving my own multi posts into that thread.
> 
> PS - Sorry Chall, but I obviously had nowhere else to do this.


I don't care about thread drift in either of 'my' threads. I hope I've been clear on that.

If we were all having an engaging and informative discussion on the demise of Oyster&#8230;&#8230;.and then you arrived and began spamming our overly engaging discussion with unwarranted gratuitous Catamaran pictures well then yes that would be a bit odd and what I would consider to be inappropriate 'thread drift'.

It didn't happen like that.

Obviously there is however some history here that I am unaware of and apparently discussing multihull sailing vessels is currently 'controversial' on Sailnet. A few years back it was anchors. Next year everyone will be inflamed about something else. That's forum life I guess.

For what it's worth the capsize thread was complete bullshite.



Lazerbrains said:


> Catamarans can't self-right once they capsize. Many cruisers I have met would not consider crossing oceans because of this and consider it a deal breaker from a safety standpoint.


Many cruisers say this do they? What a load of dog poop.

It was an attempt to troll and began full of misinformation that would be laughable other than being a SAILING FORUM there are those that perhaps might read through such a thread and get the inaccurate picture that there are cats capsizing en masse on the worlds oceans.

Anyway I am here to talk boats. I like them. They are fun. I have always learned a lot on Sailnet and an intelligent thought provoking discussion is what this place is built on.

I don't think we will buy a multihull this time around. I'm not happy with what we get in our budget. But I am intrigued. A lot to like, other's wont agree and thats okay.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Thanks Chall.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

chall03 said:


> A bit of thread drift here, but the norm amongst some of the boats I am looking at (cats and monos) seems to be that they have been out of the water for 12 months or more.
> 
> What are some of the traps I should b looking for in a boat thats been sitting in a yard unused for so long?
> 
> ...


We bought a boat in Florida that had been on the hard for 2 years. It had been lightly used (less than 800 my on the log) and was put away clean and with fresh oil. Unfortunately, the Florida sun is harsh. The gel coat was oxidized, but was restored with a serious compounding. The teak needed to be brought back. The boat was stored with the keel-stepped mast up, which allowed water to get into the bilge and soak the floorboards (the broker apparently did not keep after that issue, which was aggravated by the extremely slack bilge.)

Some of the electricals and electronics were balky. Switches needed to be "worked" in order to be reliable and the plotters needed to be sent back for factory refurb. When we splashed the boat and ran the motor, there were some minor noises that resolved themselves after about 45 minutes, as the surveyor predicted.

Even though the boat was only 5- 5 1/2 yrs old, the canvas was shot, so we needed to replace all of it. We also had the fuel tank cleaned and the fuel polished. Thankfully, the 7 sails were stored in their bags and were all was as new. We also had the bottom paint renewed (3 coats.)

So, you need to look for a boat that was properly "mothballed" and then attended by the broker to minimize neglect. And then be prepared to restore the gel coat and catch up on all the maintenance that had not been done. Hopefully the holding tank had been emptied and otherwise there was no mildew growing in all the nooks and crannies.


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