# Pacific Seacraft Bankrupt



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

edited out


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

That would explain why the website has been down for months...


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

so.... what happens to saga, if anything


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Ouch.

Great boats. Very similair to Valiant. I know they had trouble many years back... not sure about the bankrupt thing though. I think they are like 2 years out now!! Not sure if that is true, just what I heard.

Goes back to that discussion on boats, their costs, and how very expeisive our lifestyle is. Hope they can stick around.

- CD


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

What's amazing to me is that this is a company with a solid reputation, a cult following, low tooling costs since they have been producing the same designs since the bronze age, years long waiting lists, and they still are going belly up. It would seem to me that if any small builder should have been making moneym they should and so if they can't make it, I would think it next to imposible for any small US builder to make it. 

Jeff


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## snider (Jun 26, 2006)

*I agree Jeff*

Yeah you would think if any builder would make it they would. There boats definetly are not what most builders are building, therefore they should have a market. On the other hand, how many people can afford a brand new PSC and to go cruising for a few years. I have always loved there boats and plan on buying a well used 34 soon. Would be nice to have an active manufacturer.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

What happened is that the sailing community finally started listening to ole CD and realized a Catalina is the boat to buy!!!

Ahh, the glory. I am a truly wonderful person. I think I will change my name to GD: GhandiDad. (smile)

- CD


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## niko (Feb 24, 2006)

Historically, how many boatyards have survived Chapter 11?
What are the odds here? 

I mean, one can restructure and screw one's creditors in the process, but unless the fundamentals change, one will simply start digging a fresh hole..

N --


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## Wendy (Feb 1, 2004)

I bought a new to me Pacific Seacraft a week ago, so I am pretty bummed about this. Hopefully the company will emerge from Chapter 11 stronger with an improved business model. Regardless, I know I have one of the finest boats built and I don't regret having chosen a PSC. These boats aren't for everyone- they were never intended to be. For those with the courage and desire to go anywhere anytime, it would be hard to find a better boat to take them there. They are truly handmade American works of art and it would be sad indeed if he company is unable to continue operations. I really want to see one of the Perry 38's they are planning to produce.

This isn't about "should have bought a Catalina". There are people's livelihoods at stake here, there are people with a significant investment of time and money who would hope to have continued factory support, and there are people who have ordered boats in production who's investment and dreams are now just a little bit threatened.

Let's hope this works out for the best.

Wendy


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have been thinking about this since last I wrote. After noodling this around for a while I can see a number of problems that Pacific Seacraft may have faced. At some level Pacific Seacraft is a victim of their own success and business model. Because Pacific Seacraft's model's have stayed in production for a very long time they are in the unenviable position of competing with thier own boats. 

Over time Pacific Seacrafts have gotten more expensive, but they haven't improved all that much. They may have improved build quality quite a bit since the late 1980's and early 1990's, but the designs have not improved at all. But in the period since these boats were first penned, our understanding of what makes a comfortable, easily handled seaboats really has changed. 

So as I think about it, they start out dealing with a narrow portion of the market that is looking for an out of date offshore cruising design, and then they are stuck trying to sell the newer boats for two or three times what their own older boats are selling for. Even if you consider the perhaps $100K cost that it could take to properly rejuvinate one of the older boat to a condition adequate for prolonged offshore usage, the old boats are still something of a bargain when compared to the newer boats, that is if you assume that there is still a market for these older designs. 

And of course I can see how this could lead to a kind of a death spiral where competion with their own bargain priced boats of identical design makes it hard to raise costs commensorate to what these boats cost to produce, and as prices go up production numbers go down and so supplier quantity discounts go down and prices need rise further. 

I hate when that happens. 
Jeff


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Jeff...I think what you've said sounds reasonable...particularly the part about competing with your own boats. I still think there is a market for traditional boats that haven't changed much and appeal to a particular buyer (PSC, Hans Christian, Valiant etc.) but it is a limited market and getting smaller as people opt for larger and roomier designs for blue-water cruising...(Hylas/Passport/Tayana etc.) and you can build a larger custom boat overseas for the same or less than a PSC built in California. Hopping aboard a Hylas at a boat show vs. a PSC38 for about the same bucks is not gonna sell a lot of PSC's. I agree...they need some new boats without compromising the integrity of their build quality/reputation. But I guess I'm wondering if you can still buid a sub-45 foot line of semicustom boats and survive. 
The Saga's on the other hand are quite modern in design and construction and they got into trouble as well so I don't know what the issue is there. One company and two "sinking ships"!


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I am not sure if the following analogy is relevant to the discussion, but here goes. It does give a nod to Jeff's point.

In the east coast sports car market, whenever Porsche would come out with the latest "new" version of the venerable 911 there would be a huge rush of orders for the car. Many, if not most, of these orders were from current 911 owners and many of those had 911 that were only a year or two old. But that year or two old 911 was no longer the "latest" and we could n't have that now could we? The beneficieries of this phenomena were those astute used car buyers who had nothing against driving a car 1-2 years old that they purchased for less than half the new cost. Inherent in all of this is the perception that the new model is demonstrably superior to the old. It doesn't have to be, but it better be perceived as being so. Buyers of high end products, be they sailboats or Porsches are notoiously fickle. They seem to tend towards buying the "latest", ignoring the "classic". And, I suspect, this characteristic is predominant in the new boat market, at the higher end. Chevy and Catalina do not have this problem.(g)

One of the solutions to this phenomena, as discovered by Jaguar, is to raise prices. Why would raising the price on a dated product be an advantage? Well, it seems to work out that the people who have the money to buy these high end products new, as well as turn them over in a couple of years, have a very strong identification of quality and exclusivity, with cost. Jaguar was advised to raise the price of the tired old XJ-S and XJ-6. As I recall, they went from about $30,000 to up around $38,000, maybe even closer to forty. And sales increased. Same old car.

Perception is much more important than reality.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think that we're entering the age of Catalina. While there are more and more people buying boats, and living on them for extended periods, I don't think very many of those people have any intention of sailing off across the Atlantic.

When Pacific Seacraft started selling boats, there were fewer companies making large, offshore cruising boats. There were scores of options for people wanting something under 30 feet, not as many for those loking for 35 footers.

As the boomers have aged, their buying power has increased. 30 footers are entry-level boats now, and there are hundreds of 40 foot boats sold every year.

While a significant portion of the bigger boats are being bought by long-term sailors, it seems that there are just as many first-time buyers in that market as seasoned yachtsmen. For the first timer who is planning on spending four months a year on a boat in the islands, a Pacific Seacraft yacht is a waste of money, and for the others who are planning on voyaging, there is a whole lot more competition out there than there used to be.

Certainly the quality of the boats is top-tier and they are capable sea boats, but so are many others. And they have been selling the same boats for a long time....

I hope they survive. They seem to be a manufacturer with a certain amount of integrity, but, I think Sailaway raised a good point, hence I also hope that they start producing models that are a little more contemporary ... and that they get a bit more aggressive about marketing them


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

PSC boats are my favorites, but I can't afford a large enough used one.

I think that one of their major expenses and burdens is doing business in California. One of their biggest expenses is wages and pensions. Ca workers demand the most, even their large number of Mexican American employees. Workmans comp costs are huge in CA. CALOSHA looks at them with a magnifing glass. Enviromental safety costs more in Ca, shipping is more in Ca, fuel/energy is more in Ca, rent/property is more,...etc you name it.

My family used to manufacture machinery in Ca, but in the 80s we lost out to China. So through the last 20 years we went to anodizing, plating, & military painting. Now it's impossible to do in Ca., it's all gone to Nevada or Mexico. In So Cal EVERYTHING is monitored; it's tough to dry sand or spray anything. We're right next to Tijuana, Mx and they can do anything. Chromimum, lead, acid, no problem. It's the same air over head only a fence in between. If PSC moved 100 miles South they could drop their price 25%. Should they? Heck no! One of the reasons I admire PSC is their quality and their locality. For now I'll keep sailing my Cananian cutter and keep saving for my new used PSC because I fancy high end stuff.

Catalinas were from California; how much longer before they're all from florida? After that, why not build them in Mexico and really cut costs?
Chris


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I hope PS makes it out of Chp. 11 intact. They do make some very nice boats... and that may be part of their problem, since the boats are basically the same ones that they've been making for ever...


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## Wendy (Feb 1, 2004)

Sailormann said:


> I think that we're entering the age of Catalina. While there are more and more people buying boats, and living on them for extended periods, I don't think very many of those people have any intention of sailing off across the Atlantic.


I completely agree with this. As we have become more affluent as a society, we buy things that enhance our time not spent working- recreation, if you will. If I had wanted a boat for a liveaboard or weekends and vacation time only, there is no way I would have bought a PSC. A Catalina would have been a much better- and considerably less expensive- choice. I want to cross oceans so for me, the choice came down to PSC or Valiant.

With the new 38 design, it appeares that PSC is exploring a different market segment. I bought my boat through a broker that deals in new PSC's and I know the 38 was going to come in at $400K minimum- a lot of money. How many boats does Morris sell, I wonder...

Wendy


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> How many boats does Morris sell, I wonder...


 I don't think that they do much volume - and they are also operating a brokerage. I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that the used boats represent an important part of their income... Otherwise I don't think that they would be doing it. It's a difficult business (too many customers like me).

This is another casualty that really surprised me. I had thought that the cutters would be selling well...


> It is with great regret that the Sam L Morse Company has decided to discontinued production of the Bristol Channel Cutter and the Falmouth Cutter.
> 
> The molds and patterns to produce these outstanding boats, together with the rights to manufacture the boats are now for sale.
> 
> ...


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Again this is almost the same problem only worse. The BCC started out as a very limited production kitboat. The fact that it has remained in production for 30 plus years is amazing to me considering that nealry constant rumors have suggested that Morse has been teetering on the edge for that entire period. 

BCC is aneven more extreme case in that the PSC's at least improved in quality and added a couple new boats to their line-up. It is really hard to imagine paying $250-300K for a 28 footer than you can buy used for as little as $30K.

Jeff


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

This has been disected pretty well, with a lot of thought on what and why. I think that Sailorman is probably closer to the truth here in that the majority of people that are entering the market are not doing so to cross oceans. It is more about a second home that you can sail than about living aboard forever. You don't need a PSC to cruise around the Chesapeake or Lake Michigan. At times in some conditions you might wish you had one, but it is a lot less expensive to just sit out the weather than buy a boat that is over built for your intended purpose.

The suggestion to change the models and market more aggressively could be a good one in a market that is growing fast and where money floods in. In a niche market such as PSC, which has operated close to the edge for quite some time, finding that money can be very difficult. Spending it is easy.

At the end of the line, it could just be that they were not well run. A great product, but a business model relies on more than just a great product. The fact that they are in California, as suggested by someone else here, has to be to their disadvantage. However, leaving Ca. could lose them the tradesman that made the boat great in the first place. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Survival would probably mean leaving the state.

I cannot imaging myself ever being in the market for a PSC, but it would be nice to see them survive. If not, there are a lot of used on the market that will continue to cross oceans, and probably a few that will never leave the confines of a small cruising ground.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Valiants (the PSC twin) has survived (at least for the time being).

They are made in Gordonville, TX. Where??? you ask.

On a big lake in North Texas. The cost of living is extraordinarily low. The rent (do not own... as I recall!!!) the land they are made at. Super boats, and a better business plan making them somewhere that has a low cost of living, low wages, inland (good and bad), and a nice sailing community. If I was PSC, I would move to Lake Texoma. You could pull some of the working talent off of Valiant and still produce your product.

All that aside, I will tell you why they went down the tubes. I think they make an awesome boat... top notch. So does Valiant. As I have said countless times before, if you do not think there is a difference between a Valiant/PSC and a Catalina, you have never seen one or you are blind. BUT THEY ARE VERY SMALL AND CRAMPED! compared to similair size production vessel (I will use Catalina as the example here on out).

I know it was mentioned to make different model changes, etc. But I dissagree with that. One of Catalina and Valiants saving graces is that the employees working on them have made so many of the exact same boats that they can do it quickly and efficently. Boats are not like cars and small changes have huge ripple effects down the lines. I know this first hand in speaking with Catalina Mfg. Why don't you think Catalina wants to do anything custom?? THERE IS A MARKET FOR IT, big time!!!! However, the slightest change stops mfg from there back. Those little custom things kill you.

How do you save PSC?? Like Cam inferred, you change the mold and design. Look at our society. Look at our boats. Look at what sells: TV's, refrigeration, water makers, lounge chairs in the salon, big comfortable sleeping areas. Look how unpopular a pullman is today versus years ago (now everyone wants the walk-around queen/kings).

I do not fault people for this. Comfort is not a bad thing. Hylas has found a way around it, as has Oyster, Taswell, Tayana, and other manufacturers. Yet, PSC and Valiant are great examples of go-anywhere boats that are tight and uncomfortable. I don't think they have stayed up with trends or the times.

Put me in a serious offshore storm (like the one off Hatteras a week ago) or a hurricane... give me a PSC or Valiant. As for the rest of the time, a Hylas. Since I have always gone to great lengths to avoid survival storm conditions, give me a Tayana, a Hylas, a Taswell... a boat that is comfortable AND safe for going anywhere.

That is why they are bankrupt. There are other boats you can go anywhere that are modern AND comfortable.

Just a little interesting sidenote:

As many know, a few years back I was seriously shopping for a trawler. I had narrowed it down to Krogen and Nordhavn. I was approached by Steve Wallace (the service mgr for Valiant) who wanted to build me a Valiant Trawler instead. THere was another owner having them do the same thing. I was interested.

After some months of back and forth, I received dead silence. I called Steve to find out what had happend. He told me they scrapped the whole plan. No trawlers. Why?? He said they could not produce them anywhere near the cost they would be able to sell them at (comparable to a new Nordhavn) so trashed the whole idea. Told me to go buy a Nord or Krogen.

The cost of change in the boating world is considerable. Make a mold that is flexible, plan ahead for the future, follow the trends, and keep up with the times. Yet, as a business owner, I will tell you this is not just true with boats... it is business in general. Don't believe me? Ask Ford or GM.

- CD

PS I mean NO dissrespect for the PSC or Valiant owners. They really are top notch boats. If you can deal with the space, they are awesome boats and will keep you safe for the horizons ahead. You did not make a bad decision.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

Dad, 

As some of you may know I'm on Lake Texoma. (Literally, went sailing this AM.) 

We live 10 miles as the crow flies, about 45 miles by car from where the Valiants are made. Derebery marine is here along with legend marine group (the latter two are very respected 'go-fast" boys) 

I'll second the low costs here, and add in the pride of "ownership" the local community has with these companies. 
In the small towns around this 89,000 acre lake "everybody" knows "everybody" . Not many secrets out here. The pool of employment while narrow, is very deep. These "good 'ol boys" know what they're doing, and have intense pride in the quality of their workmanship. 

The market driven forces have been at work. 

There are only so many buyers of new "Bluewater" boats each year, and take into consideration that one will put you on the wrong side of 650k (before you start tinkering with the "standard" configuration) the pool of buyers shrinks even more. 

Dad and I agree that the interior space on a tub like a Vailiant is tight. People that are interested in them already know and accept that. 

Where a problem occurs is when a nouveau riche round-the-world-wannabe (or a person thats read far to many issues of Sail) compares a PSC/Valiant to a oh, who knows... Bene 473, and sez... the Bene is 5 ft longer, much bigger inside and 300k cheaper, why would I want that dark/cramped old time design PSC/Valiant? 

You can't answer that question without wanting to smack 'em in the noggin.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Pacific Seacraft is not going away*

Pacific Seacraft is not going away. Wendy, if you have any questions or problems with "Night Reach", let us know. It is great to see you working on her in the yard here at Port Annapolis.

Joe Thompson
Crusader Yacht Sales


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

But even the comparason between Valiant and PSC has additional factors why one survived and the other is in trouble. If for example, you compare the Valiant Esprit 37 (I don't think that Valiant still even builds the Esprit37) to the PSC 37. the Valiant started out with a far superior hull form and rig design. The Esprit was just plain easier to handle in a blow and the keel on the Esprit was updated at least once. I can't recall hearing that PSC ever updated their rig or underbody. 

Then there is the shift in definition. Neither boat is really suited very well to distance cruising by any modern standard. Today, people consider a more than decent dinghy an absolute necessity and neither boat lends itself to carrying the weight of a modern inflatable off its transom. Both can be adapted to provide a good water capacity, which comes at the price of either fuel, or grocery storage. 

I guess in some ways, while this is a tragedy for the company owners, it may actually pretty good for the owners of these boats since there will be fewer of them available in 'like new' condition. And frankly the market for these boats may have actually run its course and so people looking for offshore cruisers wil move onto the next company's better, more suitable design.

Jeff


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## TortugasLane (Jun 4, 2005)

Tell us about the history of the CEO with other companies!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Arrghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

So what??? they lost.....many have also...get over it....there are many others there that would love your business....spend your money elsewhere....

If in this World today, they lost, something was wrong....to begin with...

They were either:

1) making no profit, so should charge more, and to justify the cost they would have to build better to attract customers, which they weren't = Engineering problem


2) They made boats with too much primary material costs, and were selling them at less than real value = Bad project managment

3) They simply made an unattractive product = design problem

4) Their managment was too greedy = common problem in the US

5) Cost of labour was too high or unqualified, thus taking a longer time to make a boat = organisational problem

6) all the above.


Lucky those that have one, sell it for more.....as collectible


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have always admired PCs. Of course I would since I own a Westsail. In the late 70's, it was hard to tell them apart from a distance. 

I can agree with those who feel a Catalina or Hunter or Beneteau can serve the limited purpose of today's sailors. Some sailboats never leave the dock and become "condos". 

My vessel is now 28 years old. I surely looks dated as it did when it was built! Her lines came from the 1800's. However, she is still in fantastic condition, rugged beyond belief, able to survive the "Perfect Storm", and has circumnavigated for many owners. 

I use her as a coastal boat only. We all know how the "mud" can hit the fan even out coastal sailing. This boat gets me HOME everytime. I never worry about her integrity and my wife says it's the safest boat she has ever been on. 

We all know Westsails died in the early 80's. Nobody wanted to pay for such a sturdy vessel. PS took up the slack and ran with this same concept for over 30 years. Given their dedication to strength and quality, I believe they did a great job. 

I believe what caused them sales was the lack of modern innovation and the current competition with builders all over the world. It is now a global market in the boat business. Of course being based in CA couldn't help either since the cost of living is so high. To keep workers, you got to pay a lot of salary, benefits, Worker's comp, liability insurance and, oh yes, resin.

I hope they can turn themselves around. Hinckley did but with their "picnic boat". I don't know if you can buy a new sailboat from them today.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

This is a real shame, and sad to boot. The wife and I got a tour of the factory in '84, and the craftmanship, the cleansliness and the materials being used were fantastic even back then. Just seemed like a class act, with a very pleasant floor mgr and work force. Then a year or so later I ran across an article in a biz mag that rated them as one of the best 50 small businesses in California. Wish I could find it. 

Both Mr. Crealock and Mr. Perry are gods in many of our eyes, and their work and products shall and will be cherished for many years to come. Hopefully they can find another venue to practice their craft.

So the question now is, how do the other yards that produce boats of this caliber remain afloat, so to speak. Who would you compare or label as being in the same league and catagory? H/Rassey? Oyster? Valiant, H/Christian, Shannon-(I heard they're back, btw), or Tayana? Is this just a So Cal thing?

Will be intersting to see how this all plays out.......

Rick


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## niko (Feb 24, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Arrghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> So what??? they lost.....many have also...get over it....there are many others there that would love your business....spend your money elsewhere....
> 
> If in this World today, they lost, something was wrong....to begin with...


Life must be so simple in Giulietta Universe.
Black-white, black-white, black-white... mmmmm... la-la-la-la


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

and I was planing to buy new Dana


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> and I was planing to buy new Dana


...this is what might be able to help them. There is a huge hole in the market right now. There are very few boats on the market under 30 feet. An awful lot of the old ones are finally going to their graves. They were the starter boats for a lot of folks, were not well maintained, and now, it would just cost too much to bring them back to seaworthy condition.

If Pacific Seacraft could come out with their version of the C&C 27 or the CS 27 or one of those smaller cruisers, and if they could build a good hull but not spend huge dollars fitting out the interior, so that it could sell it for under 100K, I believe they'd have a real runner on their hands...


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

I notice that on Builders Row there is a survey on the future of PSC. The options are : they will survive, they will be bought, or they are dead. Although of no statistical relevance based on the 7 people that have voted, I find it interesting that 4 say that PSC is doomed. Never to be heard from again. 

Now, does somebody know something that they are not sharing, or are all 7 of you just giving this your best WAG's? Next thing you know the networks will pick up on this survey and pronounce the untimely death of a great boat builder.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

*More Exclusive Club*

I bought a worn down PSC Orion last fall and have been bringing her back to life through the winter and spring. I hate to admit defeat, but I think PSC is on the way out. The market is soft, and it isn't getting better any time soon. People have less money to spend these days. Why drop a few hunderd $K on a new PSC when you can scoop up a used one for far less. Chances are the last owner did some fitting out that you wouldn't have to do, and you know that the quality of the vessel is just as top notch as a brand new one. If the last owner didn't fit out the boat, then you have a clean slate, a far less expensive clean slate. I think they really outdid themselves. The boats are lasting forever. Also, 
As far as making all kinds of radical changes goes, it just wouldn't be a PSC if you changed everything about them. They have a great reputation because of the design and quality, so why change it. Why change below the waterline if that design has proven so seaworthy? I think it's great that they kept the boats unchanged for so long. It's like someone once said, "how do you keep a [email protected] on? Don't "F" with it."
I wanted a small, sturdy, simple boat. For the money, I couldn't have done better than the PSC Orion. I would have hated to spend the same money on a BeneHuntaLina just because it brand new, had a few extra feet, and came with an air conditioner. Maybe I'm just to traditional. I guess if this goes bad for the company, that just means we are part of an even more exclusive club.

Chris 
S/V Jessica Anne


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

SapperWhite has a very good point. In many ways, the biggest competition for many of the better boat builders was their own older hulls. And, pricewise, they couldn't compete. This wiped out a lot of other boat builders already... it just took a bit longer with PSC.


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## dmchose (Sep 5, 2003)

PSC could and very well may restructure. They do fill in a nitch. Shannon Yachts ( a semi custom builder ) lives well and does not reside in the cheapest of real-estate ;-) <O</O
The market for good sailors is just starting to make a come back, mark my words as fuel costs will soon over ride reasoning of 800 horse powered glass machines. I suspect that soon there will be a big move to quality good wind powered vessels even if it is for esthetic reasons by the $ movers.<O</O
The needs of good smaller boats in the range of 26-30 ft are well documented but the problems are cost. Many semi custom builders moved away from the size due to price point. It was hard to sell a 28ft boat to a sum of 145k+ but there is healthy market of buyers in the upper range. The older well built and designed boats of the 28-30 ft range of the 80's era still get a good premium.<O</O
So were does that leave a company such as PSC ? I would think to hunker down and market what is their bread and butter. They have a outstanding reputation and if they do get back up to speed, they should never deviate from what made it so. I would think that there would be a big push to build a quality sail boat for the same cost of a motor yachet of given size; pick GradyWhite, Hatteras or Bertram.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Like a lot of company's, they ie PSC needs to update their designs, and they did so a bit too late! I have noticed some companies change every 3-5 yrs, others including Catilina, do not change much, but still change the design some with different colors ea yr etc. 

With the two new designs coming out, that may be a helpful factor in them staying alive. If not, then in reality, they are probably a sunk manufacture. ALL manufactureing companies have had problems thru the yrs, Boeing, GM currently, Ford, dodge, fiat.........someone will either buy them out for $$ on the cents, or let them go away, or they will figure out how to restructure. But a boat in the 25-30' range will not be the savior. There are lots of boats in Europe that fit this bill too, but shipping is just as much for one of these, as it does to ship a 10' longer rig. Look in the Jeanneau forum here, two folks wanting the Sun 25, but can not get JOA to ship here, as it costs just as much as an SO32! Too bad that version could not be built here!

Marty


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Joe - You say "PSC is not going away". Can you shed more light with what you know. Do you represent PSC/Saga as a dealer?

One thing's for sure, Allan Poole is not a quiter. And he's a nice guy. I am betting he has a plan, and I wouldn't necessarily bet against him.



JoeThompson said:


> Pacific Seacraft is not going away. Wendy, if you have any questions or problems with "Night Reach", let us know. It is great to see you working on her in the yard here at Port Annapolis.
> 
> Joe Thompson
> Crusader Yacht Sales


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*waiting and watching*

I work for Crusader Yacht Sales. We have sold, resold, and commissioned a lot of Pacific Seacraft boats in the last 25 years. We haven't sailed tens of thousands of miles offshore...we have been too busy helping buyers and sellers. Here are some things we are not doing: ...frantically looking for another line of new boats to replace Pacific Seacraft, backing away one inch from our commitment to support our owners, or closing our doors. We have a new PS 31 partially complete on the line at Pacific Seacraft. I can't speak on behalf of anyone but myself, but I feel at this point that the brand is too strong, and the interest in new boats is too great, for the company to just stop. To me personally it is just a question of how they will emerge, not if. My .02


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks Joe - I hope you're right about them re-emerging. A lot of people do.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*P-38 Status?*

So where does this leave the P-38? My understanding was that they planned on having the first one at the Fall shows, definitely Annapolis. If its delayed then that would be only worse as it seems that some "new product" would be essential to improve things and to not be at the Fall shows would potentially "cost them a year"...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just remember filing for bankruptcy and going out of business are two totally different things. Chrysler filed for bankruptcy... Oldsmobile went out of businesss.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Absolutely - but I think I would at least be trying to maintain a website and instill some confidence for those that might be considering a PSC, particularly this new model, given the many choices that a potential boat buyer has these days... Maintaining such a degree of obscurity is not the kind of thing that gets you back on your feet... The P-38 looks like a winner to me but who wants to drop $400K with such uncertainty?...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I would go buy a Valiant before dropping 400k in a PSC. I am sure there is some long debate that could be ranged on the differences between the boats, but come on... they are the same. Same price. Same comfort. Same seakeeping. But Valiant is making money and is not in Banruptcy. 

If you are serious about a PSC, I would urge you to go look at a Valiant. They currently have several 42's and a 50 for sale at Cedar Mills (Valiant). Top notch people, I know them personally. 

- CD

PS I sure would not want to be a guy with the $80,000 deposit on the P38 sitting on the production line right now (where it is probably radio silent).


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Just remember filing for bankruptcy and going out of business are two totally different things. Chrysler filed for bankruptcy... Oldsmobile went out of businesss.


The difference is you could buy a Chrysler off the lot. Dealers stocked the vehicles. You did not have to give your money to them not knowing whether a car would be built and delivered or not. I have not seen many brand new Pacific Seacrafts sitting in brokers' yards. I would be extremely reluctant to give my money to a builder if they're in re-structuring. I bought a new boat in the late eighties (a bad time for boat builders) and it was quite an ordeal waiting for delivery. Luckily my builder did not go bankrupt at a time when many did but I was sweating. It is a considerable chunk of money. Even though you might have paid the full price for the boat, until you take delivery and it is registered in your name it belongs to the manufacturer and if they go bankrupt you'll be just out of luck. When I bought my latest boat it was brand new sitting in a broker's yard. I knew I was getting it!!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The P-38 does not have tooling at this point. more than 20 weeks to build hull #1 from the restart of production...let me end the suspense now, it won't be at the fall show.

On a slightly happier note, I had the chance to watch a PS-38T go through a rigorous survey over the weekend....another case, as many of you have experienced, of the deeper you get into it, the more awesome the build becomes....In my personal opinion the PS38Ts out there are undervalued by around 100k, with or without an open factory. I don't have a lot of trawler experience, just saw lots of great details and overengineered stuff where noone would ever look.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*They are coming back*

I now believe that PS is coming back at the end of summer. I believe they have found financing. You guys can nail me if I turn out to be wrong. End of summer.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

Sounds good Joe, but i don't like nailing guys! Hope you are right, I'd hate to see us go to make way for some "lesser" vessels.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Moonfish thanks for the kind words*

A lot of people have to get paid before the full cranking up starts. but there is a lot of investment money out there, some of which (apparently) looks at the Crealock 34 37 and 40 as special boats. if you think you might want a P38 or Crealock 56 let me know. The PS boats are not Catalinas, and they are not Valiants. You may think they are better, worse, too expensive, whatever, just agree that they are not the same. I like the Catalina 36MkII, I like the Catalina 400, I like the Valiant 42, I like the Valiant 50. They are different boats than the Crealocks, and the P38 (whenever one gets built) is another different animal.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Boats are in production*

PSC has investment capital and production has restarted. A 31 has already left the factory and our 31 will be completed shortly. Saga 409 is not far behind. I also note that the Bristol Channel Cutter tooling has been purchased by a reputable builder, Cape George Yachts in Washington.

Wanted to say how much I enjoy this blog, especially the heartfelt compliments for PSC boats. I found it interesting to imagine that PS boats, or any boats, might be built so well that they might never get old (and hence render new production useless), but sadly that is not the case: boats get old. There are some people out there looking for a perfect boat with all systems functioning at their absolute peak....the best way for this group to get what they want is to buy a new boat, although there are other routes to haveing a boat in this condition.

Thanks everyone who posted here...you have all made me a Sailnet fan!


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

Great News


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

On an SA forum on Jul24, Robert Perry posted

"I got a call from Pacific Seacraft yesterday saying they had received funding to stay in production. I was told to get ready to finish the work needed to get the new PSC 38 model into the tolling stage.

I think that is good news." 

Sounding better every day.


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## lfswhb (Jul 30, 2007)

I see that the Kohlmann"s are suing PSC. I dont think there is anything wrong
with PSC business model, unfortunately they have legal issues that are costing them money. Chapter 11 is hopefully going to be a helpful strategy.


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