# Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.



## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

I got talked out of the boat I was looking at previously by the good folks here, while it did have the impossible to find live-aboard slip here in Vancouver it was unlikely that it would work out for me in the long run(too big). 
Right after I suggested I didn't completely have my head in the clouds on the fact that a boat would be a lot of work. 

Coming at it from a different angle, what got me interested in boats in the first place was the stories of small boats being single-handed. I'm looking for a boat I can live-aboard, and eventually take offshore once I have enough experience. My dad will be teaching me to sail it as I have no experience in anything bigger than an FJ.


I've created a fairly exhaustive list of all the boats currently for sale that fit my budget and possibly my needs within reasonable distance.(yachtworld, craigslist, kijiji etc).
Budget is about 50, 000$ all in. A bit more for something perfectly suited and already set up, or a lot less for something in need of a lot of work.
I am 6' tall barefoot, 150lbs so narrow spaces to work on stuff aren't too much of an issue, but headroom to stand would be nice.

Musts:
Good Storage capacity(especially for water and fuel) 
Durable/secure portholes
Well built, properly attached bulkheads to hull etc.
Sea-kindly design
Singlehanding friendly(lines led to cockpit etc)


Likes:
Easy to get in and out of from a tender/dinghy
Shoal draft(less than 5'6") Or modern cutaway full keel/fin keel that can take minor grounding bumps if deeper.
Narrow/rectangular or T shaped cockpit, I don't entertain people a lot, and comfort in rough weather for me is more important than room for visitors. 
Headroom 6'2" or greater if there is at least standing headroom in the galley I can get by for the right boat. 
Solar/wind generation already on board.
Independent house batteries.
Watermaker
Good ground tackle
Tender included

Size: 27'-36', 30-33 ideal.

Whatever I get I strongly suspect I'll be trying to get one of Brent Swain's stainless steel woodstoves. I lived with wood heat in BC interior, I like it and don't mind the effort to feed and maintain a wood-stove. 


Boats currently for sale within range:
Best:
CS36T(My dad has concerns about the size, but other than the length it seems a perfect fit for all my specs)
True North 34
Aloha 32
Westerly Renown 33'
CS 33
Niagra 31
Spencer 35 MkII
USA Albin Ballard(total refit in the past 4 years rigging, new engine etc)
USA Swift Sloop 33'(handholds everywhere, nice layout)

Acceptable:
Alberg 30
Bristol 33
Murray 33' cutter steel. 
Ontario 32'

Boats I like that I can't find or can't afford: 
Crealock 31.beautiful one in Seattle, probably my favorite out of all the boats I've seen, but it's almost double my 50, 000$ budget.
Almost any Robert Perry design.
Niagra 35
C&C 34+


Any thoughts, leads on other boats I might not have considered, especially local(West coast of BC) ones would be much appreciated. I really like the way a Ketch rig looks, and the Renown is very attractively priced, but I'm trying to start with what I need/want first and narrow down to what fits rather than starting with a boat I like the look of and trying to adapt my needs to it.


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## dongreerps (May 14, 2007)

Rather than limiting your choice on length, it makes more sense to me to be sure there is nothing on board that you are unable to lift by yourself. Your thoughts on cockpit design make sense, but again sit down in one first, and lean back. Is the sitting comfortable. For hours on end? How about laying down in the cockpit seat? How about laying on the cockpit seat, and trying to read? Many will disagree, but I think that boats are like shoes - if they pinch, don't buy it.


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## Jonn (Apr 8, 2012)

Check out Islander Freeport 36's. Perry design in you price range. Roomy (I'm 6'4"), lots of storage, comfortable live-aboard and strong support community (FOGgers : Owners and others interested in the care and feeding of Islander Freeport 36-foot and 38-foot sailboats). We are buying one for live aboard near Vancouver and eventual offshore.

More radical alternate join a sailing coop, like Barnet, and build your sailing/cruising experience on the West Coast very cheaply while you look for the perfect boat.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jgbrown said:


> Boats currently for sale within range:
> Best:
> CS36T(My dad has concerns about the size, but other than the length it seems a perfect fit for all my specs)
> True North 34
> ...


Congrats on having the wisdom to actually LISTEN to the voices of experience. 

You'd be doing well to get a CS36T for less than $50K - if you've found one, be suspicious of condition. It's not too big to handle - not really any more work than others you've listed.

I'd forget the Alberg 30 - too skinny & cramped for liveaboard - that door setup to close off the head is a pain.

You might add the Spencer 31 - good boats and they have that old "California" layout with a U-dinette opposite a starboard fore & aft galley - pretty spacious for a 31' to live on and WAY under your $ limit.

Peterson 35 from Martin Yachts - three different decks and two different interiors. Big, spacious and fast. The last version with the aft dinette layout is very spacious for liveaboard. They are well within your $ range.


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## mgiguere (May 22, 2004)

There's an S&S 42 in SFO you can single hand and fits all your requirements...if it's still for sale asking $42,500. I have had the 37ft version for 25 years and it's bullet proof, modern design, and fast. Designed buy S&S after Intrepid (twice Americas Cup winner) and built by Chris Craft. Check it out.

chris craft sailboats for sale by owner.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

mgiguere said:


> There's an S&S 42 in SFO you can single hand and fits all your requirements...if it's still for sale asking $42,500. I have had the 37ft version for 25 years and it's bullet proof, modern design, and fast. Designed buy S&S after Intrepid (twice Americas Cup winner) and built by Chris Craft. Check it out.
> 
> chris craft sailboats for sale by owner.


That boat has been for sale for YEARS. I've seen it dip slightly below $40K but they must be very firm on price for it to have languished so long. It had a very extensive refit a number of years ago - that's probably why the price is stuck. It's been so long now that it'll need a new one soon. 

There's a sister to it in Bellingham that I see every time we eat at one restaurant - beautiful lines with a sheer that even Rhodes would have envied. They look better in the flesh than in pics as well. Calling it a "modern design" is a bit of a stretch though, even if it does have a fin keel. If it was still 1980, maybe.  That said, I can see myself looking good on one. 

VERY high row away factor.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Cripes, $50K. I can work with that. Okay, let's see if I got this straight- young guy, not much experience, needs headroom, ready to rock, up to 33 feet, liveaboard, PNW.
I'm thinking pilothouse. If you're gonna live aboard, live comfy.

Gulf 29 or 32.
1986 Gulf 29 Pilothouse Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com Yeah, sale pending, but it gives you an idea.
1977 Gulf Pilothouse Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Saturna 33

1991 Saturna Pilothouse Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Should be a couple for sale on the west coast, as they are a Garden design.

Rawson 32 PH

If you'd rather have space and comfort over sailing ability, there is always a willard vega horizon:
C U Later, A 1974 30 ft Willard Vega-Horizon for sale.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Meanwhile, at the opposite end of the desirability spectrum....
Morning Wind II, A 32 ft 1976 Bayliner Buccaneer 320 sloop for sale.
$39,900????!!!!???? Is somebody high?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

bljones said:


> Cripes, $50K. I can work with that. Okay, let's see if I got this straight- young guy, not much experience, needs headroom, ready to rock, up to 33 feet, liveaboard, PNW.
> I'm thinking pilothouse. If you're gonna live aboard, live comfy.


Good point BL - I can think of two local PH boats - the Cooper 316 and 353. The 353 might take a bit of a search or serious haggling for $50K but could probably be done. The 316 dips into the $20's sometimes. Both would be prime liveaboards and usually seem to be equipped for it.

Some of the nicer year round boats for this area.

There are also some North Sea 34's that were built by Beaver Glass - it was a British boat they brought tooling over for. They tend to be scarce and with high asking prices though.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Not too keen on the pilothouses to be honest... My understanding is that they are not great in high winds, and there is the risk of serious water entry if you lose a window. 
Plus I don't think trying to look over the top sounds like too much fun.
Boats like the Aloha 32 or CS 33/36T already have enough headroom for me anyways.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

If you are thinking of living aboard year round in Vancouver a pilothouse should be high on your list.

As for single handing, I am 64 and single hand my 44 footer without too much hassle. Slab reefing main.

Go and have a look at this clicky a pilothouse with some good kit.

If you are a fit 6 footer you will quickly learn to manage her. Warmer than anything else you are looking at and a MUCH BETTER liveaboard.

My concern would be the deck. It would need to be gone over by someone who knows what they are doing. If it looks like the whole deck is rotten and needs replacing walk away, a couple of sq feet would be an easy fix.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Other than the CS36T which looks ideal(shoal draft, good tankage, good power generation, only worry is no hour meter on the engine)
CS 36 Traditional

Wistful thinking...
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1728&url=
31'
Wish I could afford it, but if anyone sees one for less... I love the layout. 
Pacific Seacraft 31
Year: 1990
Current Price: US$ 89,500
Located In Seattle, WA
Hull Material: Fiberglass
Engine/Fuel Type: Single diesel
YW# 1728-2373919

These are some of the ones I'm most interested in locally and in my budget. I've got secondary lists for boats that are outside my budget, or looking like more serious projects.

TrueNorth 34 cutter, Vancouver moorage available - British Columbia Sailboats For Sale - Kijiji British Columbia Canada.
1978 Truenorth 34 "Palindrome"
Offshore capable, fully equipped, full keeled cutter
Extremely strong Airex cored hull above water line, Solid Glass below
The following is a only a partial list of equipment;
Universal 35hp diesel (Kubota) 4 cylinder, glow plugs, 300 hours since new
Campbell sailor 3 blade with new shaft and drip less cutless bearing
125 Gallons fuel racor seperator and polishing system , 120 Water with filtration
Variable speed Water pump and Paloma hot water heater
4 golf carts over 500 Amp hours total, Xantrax Truechage 20, Xantrax bat monitor
2 UNI-SOLAR Solar panels and controller 8 [email protected] 12V peak
Dickinson propane 2 Burner gimbaled oven, BBQ and Dickinson Diesel fireplace
JRC 1500 Radar on free standing pole, Standard Horizon DSC Radio with RAM mic
GPS Chart Plotter with digital maps for West Coast and all paper charts as back-up
Built in depth sounder and water speed indicator
EZ Kold Holding plate Freezer/Fridge, Danfoss BD 50 compressor Digital control
27 Samsung LCD TV with 500 watt Sony surround sound DVD player
Kenwood Audio, MP3 ,cd , system with remote
TP3000 tiller pilot linked to GPS

Vela Yacht Sales (Victoria, BC)
*Has tender and new rigging in 2006. I love the look of a Ketch. *
Boat Name: Te Tiaroa
Year: 1976
Current Price: Can$ 22,500
Located in Victoria, BC
Hull Material: Fiberglass
Engine/Fuel Type: Single diesel
YW# 15664-2457485

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=68091&url=
32'
*fireplace nice upgrade has tender.*
Aloha 32' Sloop
Year: 1982
Current Price: Can$ 34,900
(US$ 35,252)
Located In Ladysmith, BC
Hull Material: Fiberglass
Engine/Fuel Type: Single diesel
YW# 68091-2396687

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=74939&url=
*Very unique, I'd love to know how they sail, the layout and especially the handholds everywhere look very interesting. *
33'
Swift Sloop
Year: 1983
Current Price: US$ 49,500
Located In Port Ludlow, WA
Hull Material: Fiberglass
Engine/Fuel Type: Single diesel
YW# 74939-2401955

Spencer 35 Mark II Sloop/Cutter Sailboat - British Columbia Sailboats For Sale - Kijiji British Columbia Canada.

is a very safe and comfortable coastal and offshore 35ft. cruising sailboat. Can be easily configured as either a sloop or cutter. Blue Book registerred in Canada for offshore sailing. Made famous by Hal Roth and wife who sailed ths same model of boat to many areas of the world. Recent marine survey (in and out of water) completed and available. Excellent condition with many upgrades and lots of storage. Comforably sleeps 4, can sleep up to 6. Recent upgrades include Yanmar 3GM30F fesh water cooled engine, Northstar Main Sail, Dodger & Sail Cover.Upgraded Electronics include Raymarine ST60 Wind, Tri-Data & Multifunction Instruments, Garmin GPSMap, Icom DSC Radio & Multistage Statpower Batery Charger. Most of Electrical cabling replaced/upgraded including new VHF cabling and Antenae. Includes recently installed Holding Tank, Macerator Pump and PYI

1986 Canadian Sailcraft CS33 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
*full windvane and 10k cheaper than other CS33s, makes upgrading refrigeration, heating and power feasible. Deep keel is unfortunate*
Year: 1986
Current Price: Can$ 37,900
(US$ 37,980)
Located In Nanaimo, BC
Hull Material: Fiberglass
Engine/Fuel Type: Single diesel
YW# 76246-2373000

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=23304&url=
Ready
CS 33 Sloop
Year: 1982
Current Price: Can$ 47,000
(US$ 47,099)
Located In North Vancouver, BC
Hull Material: Fiberglass
Engine/Fuel Type: Single diesel
YW# 23304-2360189

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=11024&url=
33'
CS 33
Year: 1981
Current Price: Can$ 39,900
(US$ 39,984)
Located In Nanaimo, BC
Hull Material: Fiberglass
Engine/Fuel Type: Single diesel

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=23304&url=
Ready
CS 33 Sloop
Year: 1982
Current Price: Can$ 47,000
(US$ 47,099)
Located In North Vancouver, BC
Hull Material: Fiberglass
Engine/Fuel Type: Single diesel
YW# 23304-2360189

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=68091&url=
Niagra 31
*Good tankage, low hour new engine, recently gone over fully.*
Year: 1981
Current Price: Can$ 41,000
(US$ 41,086)
Located In Sidney, BC
Hull Material: Fiberglass
Engine/Fuel Type: Single diesel
YW# 68091-2378254

31' Niagara 1981 - "Hadar" Victoria City, Victoria
Builder/Designer	
Hinterhoeller, St. Catherine, Ont./German Frers
Niagra 31
Hull Material	
FRP
Engine/Fuel Inboard (New in 2005)/Diesel 710 hrs
Dimensions	
LOA:	
31'	
Beam: 10' 3"	
Draft: 5'
Engine	
Make: Volvo	
Model: MD2030 Sail drive
Tankage	
Fuel: 22 US Gal	
Water: 25 US Gal Holding: 15 US Gal

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=51729&url=
Bombay clipper 31
Year: 1978
Current Price: Can$ 33,900 Tax Paid
(US$ 33,971)
Located In Captains' Cove Marina Delta, BC
Hull Material: Fiberglass
Engine/Fuel Type: Single diesel
YW# 51729-2318630

1969 BRISTOL 33 Sail Boat cruiser

Bristol 33
4-30 "UNIVERSAL" DIESEL 25HP, 30 gallon stainless tank with 3 fuel filters
WATER TANKS 1 twenty gallons and 1 twenty five gallons = 45 gallons total

Sailboats: 34' Klaus Grueber Roberts 34 Sloop - Listing #: 3787

Home built roberts 34, newish, very good specs for price
Year:	
1993
Price:	
$39,900 CAD

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=4144&url=
Completely refit and painted Albin Ballad 30


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Putting a True North 34 and a CS 33 on the same wish list just doesn't make sense.. you need to first figure out what kind of boat you want. Have you read the 'full keel vs fin keel' threads? Some homework there so that you can start comparing oranges with oranges.

I'm surprised to see so many CS33s listed locally.. they are usually rare as hens' teeth. While I'd be a bit leery of the low priced one, it's worth a cautious look for sure. If the other one has $10K worth on goodies/features it may be the better long term choice. I like these boats, esp for single or one couple accommodation. They are not well set up for guests. Great reputation for soild build, decent performers. Around here the deep draft is not a problem, but an asset. I'm sure a good, well prepared one will do just fine offshore.

The Aloha 32 is a 'shippy' looking cruiser from a good designer, Mark Ellis, it's essentially a mini Niagara 35, along with the unconventional layout of her big sister. Again a decent single couple's boat, robust long fin and spade rudder at least she'll be able to get out of her own way!

The Niagara 31 is a sleeper performer.. A German Frers design hidden under the cruisey look of the Aloha/Niagara style. Another layout not ideal for many guests, but sounds like that's not going to be a problem for you as a single liveaboard/couple.

Personally I'd be looking at these above rather than the heavy full keeled boats, even for ocean passages, but that's a personal subjective choice. One you need to make before you start to shop....


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Jgbrown said:


> Not too keen on the pilothouses to be honest... My understanding is that they are not great in high winds, and there is the risk of serious water entry if you lose a window.
> Plus I don't think trying to look over the top sounds like too much fun.
> Boats like the Aloha 32 or CS 33/36T already have enough headroom for me anyways.


Check out the 316 and 353 online. They do not expose a great deal to wind. I have sailed a 353 it would make a very good liveaboard.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Yes, I also followed through with the Mahina summaries, wikipedia, and a good dig through the back and forth arguments on boatdesign forum.
Ideal is either a deeper modified(cutaway) full keep vs a shallower heavily built fin( like the CS 36 with shoal draft) I also noted as a negative in my notes the deep draft fin on the CS33. 
The deep draft is an asset until I screw up:laugher
So it is not a deal breaker for me, but rather something to be cautious about, and definitely a factor to consider.
Likewise with the full keel on the True North 34, it is at the far end of my desired attributes(ideal is in the middle between the two). 
I'm trying to keep an open mind though, a deep fin means a bit more speed, but more risk. Within reason either is acceptable, just not ideal, my ideal is the balance between the two, which I(correctly nor not) believe to exist within my budget on either a heavily built long shoal draft fin or a modern cutaway full keel.

My ideal would one of the twin keel designs that could equally happily sit on the beach as sail. Or even something like the Hogfish Maximus if it wouldn't handle so terribly offshore. Budget and reality constraints apply however. 
I even like the idea of ferrocement(the flexible and ultra durable high end versions, not the home built crap.)
Not so much this kind though. 









TQA: Little too big for me, though I have always had a soft spot for ferro-cement, my dad would never agree to it. I asked about a cement boat when I was little and we were sailing out from the RVYC. He had rather strong opinions on them. 


Faster said:


> Putting a True North 34 and a CS 33 on the same wish list just doesn't make sense.. you need to first figure out what kind of boat you want. Have you read the 'full keel vs fin keel' threads? Some homework there so that you can start comparing oranges with oranges.
> 
> I'm surprised to see so many CS33s listed locally.. they are usually rare as hens' teeth. While I'd be a bit leery of the low priced one, it's worth a cautious look for sure. If the other one has $10K worth on goodies/features it may be the better long term choice. I like these boats, esp for single or one couple accommodation. They are not well set up for guests. Great reputation for soild build, decent performers. Around here the deep draft is not a problem, but an asset. I'm sure a good, well prepared one will do just fine offshore.
> 
> ...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

TQA said:


> If you are thinking of living aboard year round in Vancouver a pilothouse should be high on your list.
> 
> As for single handing, I am 64 and single hand my 44 footer without too much hassle. Slab reefing main.
> 
> ...


It's ferro.  Better have it checked out by someone who knows ferro well. Locally, both John Samson and Chris Deiner are gone now and the were the fount of all knowledge re: ferro construction. Also, $39K is a lot for ANY ferro boat on this continent.

The CST is a much better choice IMHO, even though it's 1/2 the size.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Half the size is a perk, not a negative  The 36T is just about right in my eyes, for volume, capacity but my dad is concerned about the increased weight and extra length for manovering at low speed. While I understand his concern, I feel that the extra 4000lbs and length is a benefit in a liveaboard especially under heavy weather conditions. I will be unlikely to be spending much if any time in close quarters in a Marina. Fuel and water tanking up is simplified by having well over triple the capacity.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Handling is NOT going to be an issue with a CS 36T, or a 33. Many of those others on your list would be.

The Coopers are better sailboats than most pilothouses.. not really into the 'motorsailer' genre with those. They are roomy for their length.

The Northsea 34 is another good one, there are a few around as they were mainly built here.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

If only it didn't have nearly 7' of draft...  Were these ever made in a shoal draft version?

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1012&url=

Yamaha 36, nicely rebuilt new rigging in '06. I really like the layout, seems to be an interesting compromise between pilothouse and a normal deck. 
Love the layout.

EDIT; I looked at both of those pilothouse yachts. The Northseas look to be a fair bit out of my budget, and both have saildrives, which I've got some pretty serious reservations about because of what I've read about them online. Coopers actually looked pretty interesting, is there a large issue with pilothouses and wind, how does one deal with a pilothouse offshore?
Were any versions made with shaft drives?
I suppose a saildrive could be fairly easily converted to electric via a Torqueedo, though they'd be a little short on power according to their specs on a boat that size.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I don't quite understand your reservations on what you refer to as deep draft. A draft of 6 1/2' can go anywhere, with the possible exception of some of the Bahamas. Generally a boat with deeper draft is better to windward. 

Boats of all drafts can hit bottom. Owners of shallow draft boats may be worse off as they can be a bit more adventurous.

CS33 and CS36T are both great boats, and roomier than others you are looking at. For example the CS36T is over 2' wider than the Spencer 35 which can be a bit tight below. The Yamaha looks pretty good as well - I would not worry about the draft. 

I would forget the Westerly. A center cockpit 32' without a passageway to the aft cabin is like a 26' boat inside.

36' is not hard to handle - the bow is just a bit farther away.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

mitiempo said:


> I don't quite understand your reservations on what you refer to as deep draft. A draft of 6 1/2' can go anywhere, with the possible exception of some of the Bahamas. Generally a boat with deeper draft is better to windward.
> 
> Boats of all drafts can hit bottom. Owners of shallow draft boats may be worse off as they can be a bit more adventurous.
> 
> ...


Hmm I thought from the pictures it had a passageway opposite the galley? Just that it also had a top hatch aft of the cockpit? 
I guess my reservations come from 1) the CS owners forum where the reviews specifically mentioned it damaging the grid reinforcing inside the hull. 2) a couple of ads I saw with grounding damage being mentioned.
That led me to being cautious, as well as all the dire warnings about what happens to deep fin keeled boats who's owners go exploring. 
What about the Alohas? They certainly got some nice reviews.
What about the Swift 33?

The Niagra 31 is tempting too, I know that it is not a shorter Niagra 35 exactly(the first sailboat I ever really wanted as a kid was a Niagra 35 called Star Kindred I used to see every day at the RVYC). Seems nicely laid out, and Faster likes it(good recommendation in my books )


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Niagaras are good boats, as are Alohas. The Swift looks interesting but I do not know anything about them.

Any boat can be damaged by a good hit. The trick is not to.

The Westerly doesn't show a passageway - rare on a 32' boat. There are cockpit lockers on each side which would make it impossible on a boat that size unless it had a lot more freeboard. Visually it will seem small inside. Here's a link to the Westerly that shows the layout a lot better. Great boat for a couple who want the kids to be in their own cabin. You would probably only use it for storage. Westerly Renown ketch archive details - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales
Also the Westerly is only 2" wider than my CS27.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Damn. There goes that idea. I really did love the Ketch rig though. My dad is pretty focused on the shorter CS. He is very concerned that the 36T will be much harder to handle in every way, due to the extra length and weight.
I think the 36T, especially the specific one I'm interested in is much more suited to my purpose such as the extra length and weight would probably be an asset in rough weather at anchor, triple the tank capacity means fewer trips for fuel/water etc.
However he has experience with sailing larger boats and I do not. 

Were most CS33s set up for singlehanding with lines run aft as well?


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Jgbrown said:


> Were most CS33s set up for singlehanding with lines run aft as well?


You do not need the lines run aft to singlehand. I actually prefer the halyard and reefing lines on the mast. Using an autopilot or by heaving to, reefing is much easier. The friction on a single-line reefing system is much higher.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Virtually no stock boats have the halyards and reefing lines led aft - it is something owners do themselves.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

There will be minimal difference in the feel of the CS36 vs the 33.. both are beefy boats and while you may notice the extra weight it's easily adapted to. As a liveaboard if the price fits it's a no-brainer going for the 36 (as long as you've sorted out the moorage situation)

As Jack says, too, halyards and lines led aft (or not) should not be deal breakers.. it's not difficult to do if you really need it, but I agree that singlehanded, as long as you have some sort of self steering, having halyards and reef lines at the mast works well.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Whoops. Reading about too many boats. I realize that 1) you told me about it already(the lines aft thing) 2) The owner of the boat and I talked about it too.

Moorage is going to be on the hook I think, assuming I can bug Gio into sharing his tips and tricks(Owner of the Pegasus that is in False Creek right now). The 36T already has heavier duty ground tackle than he's using, I've been doing a lot of research into anchoring techniques, especially those used under storm conditions. I figure if I spend 90% of my time sitting at anchor, and 10% sailing, and considering how many boats get damaged or washed up at anchor I figure I should devote my resources to learn how to anchor so I don't lose whatever I end up with. I've got printed copies of Maine Sailors observations on mooring, an interesting PDF on anchoring in the Sea of Cortez during a hurricane and I'm digging around to see what else turns up.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Just to throw another wrench into everything, what about a freedom 32?
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=6944&url=
32k asking. Repowered(original Yanmar was 22, this one has the 27)


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Jgbrown said:


> Damn. There goes that idea. I really did love the Ketch rig though. My dad is pretty focused on the shorter CS. He is very concerned that the 36T will be much harder to handle in every way, due to the extra length and weight.
> I think the 36T, especially the specific one I'm interested in is much more suited to my purpose such as the extra length and weight would probably be an asset in rough weather at anchor, triple the tank capacity means fewer trips for fuel/water etc.
> However he has experience with sailing larger boats and I do not.
> 
> Were most CS33s set up for singlehanding with lines run aft as well?


Reading through this again it appears that you are contemplating living either on the hook or on a mooring. In which case the primary benefit of the small boat, the lower marina charges, disappears.

You and your dad are worrying to much about boat size. if you are reasonably fit and 6 ft then boat size is not that much of a problem when it comes to sailing. OK when the sails get above 400 sq ft then yes it is a problem but I would not dismiss larger boats. I lived for 7 years on a 38 footer and now am in my 3rd year on a 44 footer. Both of which I can and do single hand, managing to sail and anchor with no great anxieties. Could I manage on a smaller boat sure but I like the extra speed, the quieter motion and the ability to keep going when faced with the steep nasty seas of the Caribbean 2 step. Also I like the headroom the extra space available for a good size shower and not having to worry about weight when I think about keeping something.

Sure the smaller boat will cost less to maintain and a little less to heat but the benefits of space and if you go voyaging the extra speed and stability are considerable.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

So far so good. Seen some great boats. Seen some questionable boats. Seen some :laugher boats.

Started off with a Saturna 33 offshore, nice boat, but the inside was a bit odd. Definitely lived in, but a pretty zany setup, like the lamp with 15' of wire wrapped around the post, rubber tarantulas on the ceiling, and the holes drilled in the trim all over for pencils. I had flashes of the Joker in Batman since they were all stored end up. 

It became quickly apparent which boats would work for me, and which wouldn't. 

next was a Nonsuch 26, tons of room for the size, but just didn't do it for me.
Up to Nanimo to look at a CS33 and I felt bad for the salesman, junk all over, he opened the cockpit up took a look, turned to us with a sad look. Decent boat overall, and I liked the layout, but it felt a little small inside for the price.
Right next door was one in great condition, way cheaper with self steering vane and obviously well cared for, a different dealer had it though. he didn't stay too long and went off to talk with the wharfinger. 

Some pretty fail-laden boats, where the guy was ashing in the sink, and left his roaches sitting all over the edge, obvious liveaboards, with tires and junk all over asking 10k more than the spotless ones. 
Some pretty fail-laden brokers too. Not a clue about their boats, or sales for that matter.

One notable exception was Larry Thompson with Bayview yachts in Ladysmith. Every boat he had was in beautiful shape, modern electronics, tons of upgrades, and great prices. His info packets were huge(not a single page), and he knew them inside and out. He took 2 hours to show us 3 boats, one was a beautiful Aloha 32 for a very reasonable price. He outlined anything he thought should be upgraded or replaced, with approximate costs to do so, even down to the level of a specific propane fitting on one boat that he felt was better replaced with a modern fitting.

I would absolutely recommend him to anyone looking for a boat in the area. My dad even agreed, and he's not usually a fan of salespeople at all. If nothing on my current short list pans out, I'm just going to tell him what I'm looking for, I know he'll come through if anyone will.


Right now my shortlist is down to 5 boats, all really solid candidates with good reasons for each. Not bad considering how broad my list was at the start.

CS36T: Solid in every way, functional well built and tons of space, good tankage,power etc. Good supply of spares.

custom steel 36' (pretty in an ugly industrial way, well built and sailed over from Europe.) Felt smaller on deck than the 36T. 
Comes with moorage in a nice liveaboard slip. 

mid 30s Custom wood restoration of a William Garden design. Beautiful, functional and in need of a little love, incredibly well built, but in need of some repairs. 

CS33: Little brother of the 36, less tankage, but well put together, won't save anything in a marina though.
Aloha 32. Some savings over the 33 and 36 in both moorage and purchase price, nice layout, except for the complete lack of V berth. 

Alberg 30. This was one of the biggest surprises, a lot roomier than I thought, it actually felt more livable than the Aloha 32, though not as prettily built inside. Very lived in, very easy to live in. Great upgrades inside and out and some really brilliant ideas from the owner. Full keel, skeg rudder. Tons of storage space, the biggest deck lockers I've ever seen, tiller steerage and easy to handle. I felt right at home in it. Owners lived at anchor right through the winter, said it was much more sea-kindly than the Benteneaux 36 he used to sail. More tank capacity than all except the 35 and 36' boats. 


Now the biggest problem seems to be finding moorage, the compromise my dad and I have tentatively reached is that if I want his backing on anything more expensive than the Alberg that I need to find real moorage, either a buoy or a slip. 

The 36T seems to be the best all around boat, which is what I'd expected, it was always at the top of my list. The others have some real benefits, and some real drawbacks.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

jgb.. you know, we get a lot of 'I want to buy this boat, and do this, and try this, then sail around the world and what do you all think?' new posters here on SN and it seems more often than not all they want is 'atta boys' and validation of often hare-brained schemes. Often they take umbrage at suggestions that they're not really 'there' yet.

You are to be commended for heeding much of the advice you've received here, taking the comments and even nay sayers with good grace, and now you have a modified objective that seems achievable.

Kudos, too, to the members here for taking the time and contributing thoughts and ideas on this thread and all the others too.. as Smacky often says, this place rocks!


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

This place absolutely does rock, without it, and the good advice here I would have been looking at some pretty impractical boats for what I'm actually doing now, and for what I want to do eventually. 
That's part of why I set my budget so high(for me) at 50k, it seemed to me that trying to get a 10k boat that you could both live-aboard and sail long distances was pretty impossible. 
a 50k boat will take me about 7 years to pay off. The differences between a 20k boat and a 35k boat seemed to be fairly minor, but after 40k a big jump appeared. 

I'm not anywhere, I know I haven't got a clue  

The Alberg is an oddball, it seems almost completely ready for going offshore, tough, roomy and easy to handle, and a screaming deal of utility for price(16k), I could pay it off by Christmas, and it has a new yanmar(150 hrs), mainsail, fully insulated, LED lighting, marine Fusion stereo, new head, tons of tankage and storage only the 35/36' boats beat. The sacrifice is the head has no separate compartment and no shower. 
The owners live on the hook, and are willing to help with the transition.

Tough choices to make... Too many good boats.


Thanks again to everyone who's contributed, whether directly in the thread, or in the great posts and guides I read.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jgbrown said:


> The Alberg is an oddball, it seems almost completely ready for going offshore, tough, roomy and easy to handle, and a screaming deal of utility for price(16k), I could pay it off by Christmas, and it has a new yanmar(150 hrs), mainsail, fully insulated, LED lighting, marine Fusion stereo, new head, tons of tankage and storage only the 35/36' boats beat. The sacrifice is the head has no separate compartment and no shower.
> The owners live on the hook, and are willing to help with the transition


That's the first time I ever heard an Alberg 30 referred to as "roomy".  That does sound like a great deal though - that new diesel probably cost more than that by the time it was running in the boat. If you find it comfortable, go for it. There's nothing better than a boat that's paid for.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

SloopJonB said:


> That's the first time I ever heard an Alberg 30 referred to as "roomy".  That does sound like a great deal though - that new diesel probably cost more than that by the time it was running in the boat. If you find it comfortable, go for it. There's nothing better than a boat that's paid for.


I wouldn't call it roomy exactly, the actual space is somewhat limited, but the usability of it is great, as a liveaboard it had better use of space than the Aloha 32. The aisle was narrower, but there was storage locks behind everything.
The diesel cost 10k, the sail was 6500, so basically the boat is sold for the cost of those two.
It's tempting, but I'm not sure which direction to go.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jgbrown said:


> I wouldn't call it roomy exactly, the actual space is somewhat limited, but the usability of it is great, as a liveaboard it had better use of space than the Aloha 32. The aisle was narrower, but there was storage locks behind everything.
> The diesel cost 10k, the sail was 6500, so basically the boat is sold for the cost of those two.
> It's tempting, but I'm not sure which direction to go.


I'd bet that diesel likely cost $10K on a pallet - they don't install themselves. I once spent most of a month of spare time installing a YSM8 in the space where a YSE8 came out. That was damn near a straight replacement and it STILL cost most of a grand in incidentals and a month of spare time 20 years ago.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Jgbrown said:


> So far so good. Seen some great boats. Seen some questionable boats. Seen some :laugher boats.
> 
> Started off with a Saturna 33 offshore, nice boat, but the inside was a bit odd. Definitely lived in, but a pretty zany setup, like the lamp with 15' of wire wrapped around the post, rubber tarantulas on the ceiling, and the holes drilled in the trim all over for pencils. I had flashes of the Joker in Batman since they were all stored end up.
> 
> ...


I like this kid. No whining, intelligent input, and he's not falling in love with the first boat he sees.

I can understand what you see in the Alberg- it IS a good layout that makes good use of the narrow hull.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

bljones said:


> I like this kid. No whining, intelligent input, and he's not falling in love with the first boat he sees.


I noticed that during the go-round about that monster Discovery he started with. Learning to recognize and TAKE good advice is a lesson all too many people NEVER learn, let alone at an young age.

Personally, I don't fall in love with the first boat I see, I fall in love with almost ALL of the boats I see. 



> I can understand what you see in the Alberg- it IS a good layout that makes good use of the narrow hull.


They're a true classic but that 8' beam sure limits their interior volume and I absolutely HATE that Chinese puzzle of doors to "sort of" close off the head.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Alberg 30's are more palatial than you think - the beam is 8'9"

My Cs 27 had a goofy door arrangement as well - a solid door with a second door attached with a vertical hinge to close off the cabin and head. The first thing I said to the seller was "anybody complain about this door?"

I removed it asap.


I agree Jeremy is taking good advice - and getting it as well. He has also found some pretty good boats and at reasonable prices I think.

The steel boat that was sailed from France looks interesting, well equipped and from the pics the condition looks good. The French know metal boats well. As long as it surveys ok.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

bljones said:


> I like this kid. No whining, intelligent input, and he's not falling in love with the first boat he sees.
> 
> I can understand what you see in the Alberg- it IS a good layout that makes good use of the narrow hull.


Thanks, not sure about the intelligent input part but I have gotten bit enough time not to at least try my best to pay attention. 
Sorry for snapping at you in the other thread last night btw. Too far past my bedtime.



SloopJonB said:


> I noticed that during the go-round about that monster Discovery he started with. Learning to recognize and TAKE good advice is a lesson all too many people NEVER learn, let alone at an young age.
> 
> Personally, I don't fall in love with the first boat I see, I fall in love with almost ALL of the boats I see.
> 
> They're a true classic but that 8' beam sure limits their interior volume and I absolutely HATE that Chinese puzzle of doors to "sort of" close off the head.


The weird part is that except for the aisle down the center, it had better space than the Aloha 32, way more storage with better access etc. It felt smaller but used bigger if that makes sense, not a bad approach. The full keep protecting prop and skeg hung rudder have some appeal too.

The current owner and his girlfriend threw out that stupid door as soon as they moved in, and fitted a better toilet at the same time. 
Apparently it also had the deck cut out and a metal plate added to reinforce it under the mast.

I know what you mean about falling in love with each boat, but most had some glaring dislike immediately as well except the ones I've got in my list now.

Once I get a good look at the last two, I'll put up links to them here with more info.

There are so many reasons to take each one over the others, and so many variables.

EDIT: forgot about that Discovery, still a great looking boat, but a silly choice on my part. Oh well, if you aren't embarrassing yourself once in a while, you're probably not learning anything new. You guys were awfully nice about it though.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Jgbrown said:


> T
> Sorry for snapping at you in the other thread last night btw.


Never apologize for getting up in my face. Your response was reasoned, logical, well-written and honest. Nothing in there that requires an apology. Stick around, kid, you offer a rare combination of passion and pragmatism- we need more of that here.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Thanks, I don't really know what else to say, but now I guess you've given me a goal to live up to, and not turn into another idiot in a boat he can't afford to own or repair.

Update: The CS36T is gone. I went to see her, she was a lovely boat, and I was actually surprised the owner was selling her, that well found, with such extensive spares and equipment, I didn't think he'd save much going smaller. I am glad for him that he has decided to keep her, it was obvious he didn't want to let her go.
Would have been a perfect liveaboard I think.

The steel boat is nice, the hull is in amazing shape, well cared for and the original galvanizing seems to have really helped. The interior is brilliantly set up to ventilate the whole bilge, even in the deepest part there is only a light hint of brown on the paint, no visible rust and no flaking anywhere. But the outfitting is much rougher, not a lot of spares, raw water cooled original engine, no shower, no holding tank, euro plug AC, crazed plexi windows, 20+year old sails, old rigging etc. And it's a custom steel boat. 
So it seems like a great boat, in need of a bit of work, which puts it at the high end of the price range for what it is to my mind. Asking 53k now.

Destrier Raid 36 pi./10.97 m 1987 « anesthesie » - Voilier - Annonces | Les Puces Nautiques

Finally got a better look at the CS33, it is nicely equipped, asking. There are two almost side by side in Nanaimo, and the one asking more is significantly rougher, without the upgrades.
She is powered by a 20hp Bukh diesel that was completely rebuilt in 2000, and has an inventory of 6 sails. She is equipped with a Simrad Autohelm, Hydrovane self steering gear $9000 value 2 anchors with chain and rode and much more.
1986 Canadian Sailcraft CS33 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Lastly there is the Alberg still, still well equipped, still well priced. Still asking 16k.

The steel boat is great, at 30k I'd be all over it, that would leave enough left over to clean and repaint, new sails, add a holding tank, redo the electronics, and replace the old laptop+pirated software with an ipad or something. 
The alberg is still liveable, and nicely put together, albeit small.
The CS33, is basically a totally comfortable liveaboard, but no fridge or solar, and it's pretty close to the upper end of my budget still when accounting for that.

I'm still quite interested in the Alberg, the suggestion of the best boat being the one that's paid off has some merit, but the 33 I could pay off in two years, and it seems like a capable boat.
Any thoughts on where to proceed from here, or boats I may have missed?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Personally, esp if there are several years of BC liveaboard prior to any 'voyaging' I'd lean towards the CS33... partly from a liveable space point of view, superior suitability to the local conditions, and overall quality/aesthetics. But I should state at the outset I'm a 'finkeel/spaderudder' type so there is a natural bias there as well.

CS owners are in general strongly supportive of their boats, and I think as a builder they earned that support with a good, solid boat, and a well-designed, attractive look that will stand the test of time.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jgbrown said:


> Any thoughts on where to proceed from here, or boats I may have missed?


This is on Craigs right now - on the Fraser I think. Note the price - worth checking out I think. Tom Timmerman is (was?) a local designer - had a nice eye.

********************************************************

Boat is in good condition well built needs cleaning current owner planned to sail her to Mexico but his business now prevents this ,he wants it sold to support purchase of needed business equipment, all offers will be considered custom built Timmerman design

MAJOR PRICE DROP to $11900 obo
roller furling
diesel power
instant hot water
radar
diesel heat
great coastal cruiser


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Here's the link. REDUCED 34 pilot house aluminum sail boat


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

mitiempo said:


> Here's the link. REDUCED 34 pilot house aluminum sail boat


Howdjoo do that?

P.S. there's also a Hunter 34 on Craigs - the old Legend series I think - the "conventional looking" ones with wedge cabintops - asking $37K. A Hunter would be as close to ideal for liveaboard as you could get IMHO.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

SloopJonB said:


> Howdjoo do that?
> 
> P.S. there's also a Hunter 34 on Craigs - the old Legend series I think - the "conventional looking" ones with wedge cabintops - asking $37K. A Hunter would be as close to ideal for liveaboard as you could get IMHO.


It was hard to find - I finally found it by searching "roller furling"

Copy and paste the link was the rest.

You mean this one?
1983 Hunter 34, lots of Upgrades, Popular sailboat el


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

mitiempo said:


> It was hard to find - I finally found it by searching "roller furling"
> 
> Copy and paste the link was the rest.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure - the one I saw was on Kijiji, NOT Craigs - my bad.

Hunter 34 Sailboat, Clean, ready to cruise, w/ moorage - British Columbia Sailboats For Sale - Kijiji British Columbia Canada.

Edit - I just cross checked the phone number - it's the same boat.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Looked at the pilothouse online, nice but a couple things I didn't like. Closed the deal on the alberg tonight. 13k.
Funny since I started with a bigger budget and ended up with the proverbial 10k blue water boat. 40 gallons water, 55 diesel, 40lbs propane.


vancouver.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-sailboats-Alberg-30-Offshore-Cruiser-W0QQAdIdZ358747577




**Insulated from keel to deck with VAPOR lock. Makes a huge difference in comfort, heat, and condensation. Cool in summer, warm in winter.

**New Dickson Propane Heater (2011) Got me through the winter living on the hook!!

**New Dickson 2 burner stove. (2011)

**Brand new Jabasco head with holding tank. (US coast guard approved)--(2011.)

**Brand new cruising sail main. (2011) Worth $9000.00

**Brand new surround sound stereo. (ipod dock and universal mp3, FM...)

**New Yanmar Diesel Engine. (2011) Less then 100 hours) Serviced every three months. Worth $10,000. Alone.

**New interior LED Efficient lighting.

**X2 120 amp hour house main and starting bat. 2011.

**80% of the wiring changed. (2010)

**Professional offshore solid anchor set up:
--200" 5/16th chain, with 35lb genuine CQR ($1000.00 set up!!)
--200" new nylon rode, with a 45LB danforth. (secondary)
--200" extra rode.
---------------------------------------
Other stuff:
--Full Spinaker set up
--3 head sails
--Self furling head sail.
--Lifevests.

**Selling with all boat gear: (tons of rode, vest, lights, shackles, tools, fuel jerry's.......)

**New foam settees and Vbirth mattressescoming just put in.
-------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Congrats!!


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Congratulations - Alberg 30's are great boats and you got a fantastic deal.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Thanks  I was a little apprehensive, especially considering the general feelings here about trying to find a 10k blue water boat. There is a lot about the CS33 that really appeals, I think they are certainly a better boat for what I want. The nav station design alone is great. 
However with a much older(and not notoriously great) motor, older sails, older stove etc it wasn't three times more boat, but was three times more cost, and harder to find a slip for.
The Alberg was a fantastic deal at the price point, most of the big expensive things have been done(including all thru hulls, water tanks etc). It's the non liner version, so more spacious and easy to find a slip for. Apparently no deck rot(owner pulled a few stanchions etc). No soft spots I could find.
The fact that I can pay it off in a year, means that upgrades are much more feasible(solar, refrigeration) and I can have some money left to sail with.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Score!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Did you get a slip for it? or are you going on the hook right away??


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Had two potential slips but way up the Fraser. I wish I could find something closer to work though like mosquito.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Uh oh. Looks like they're gone. I've got until next Sunday to find myself a slip. This is going to be fun! PM me any tips or if you know any slips within 35km ish of downtown that might be up for grabs for a 30' boat? I'm not too worried about amenties, just having a place to stay!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Slips are available, SNer Mystic1 here in Vancouver got a slip at Granville Island recently, but they don't come cheap.

I'm sure you've contacted all the other marinas, but just in case, were the Fraser River ones at Captains Cove, or Shelter Island? Also have you contacted Lynwood Marina in N Van? There will be transient slips available at Fishermans' Wharves in FC but at the daily rate, unfortunately.

Get on every wait list you can and don't wait for a call... pestering them seems to speed things up. Bowen Island is another possibility but not exactly close to town.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Fraser river were neither, they were farther up, just a short ad on Kijiji advertising liveaboard or not at 8$/ft.

Lynwood does most of their contracts yearly on April 1st.

The Granville island slips are all 38' min charge, and a steep rate to start with. If they'd bill me for 30 I could stomach it for the location.

I've found one maybe place, but to control liveaboards they've got a rule that you can be there over night no more than a certain number of nights per week. 

I'm game to anchor, but my parents aren't too excited about that plan.


EDIT: I'll check both of the Fraser ones, I'd be quite content being near the airport(it's almost a straight short to work for me) but it is hard to find a spot for a 30' even there!


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## wallabycreek (Aug 5, 2004)

I have seen people sailing around the world on all types. Some very cheap. If you value your life you will stay home. If you really need to sail you will buy a bathtub and get going. I personally have done it twice. I loved it and if I die at sea there is no better way to go. You need to read a lot. Try "Around The World Sailing Guide" from Amazon.com


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## 76Trombones (Apr 24, 2012)

Ok, you'll probably all get a kick out of this posting, but after discovering this thread I pretty much had to become a member and high-jack jgbrown's thread. 

Firstly, I own a Luna 24' that's been a great weekend boat for me for the past 7 years. I just got space at Burrard Civic Marina, and also just clipped my keel leaving Silva Bay two weeks ago :S Embarrassing to say the least, because I know better, but the damage isn't too bad. The boat is out of the water getting the keel rebedded at Strait Marine in Steveston. Jgbrown, if you need a place to tie up for a week or two in False Creek you may be able to have my slip until my boat's out of the yard. I'll check with the Marina tomorrow. Maybe fire me a pm with some contact info.

Second part of my message, and the reason I found this thread in the first place... I went and looked at that 34' Pilothouse that was mentioned. I'm a naval architect/mech engineer and would love to own an aluminum boat, and since I'm looking for a pilothouse... it fit the bill. The asking price was also certainly attractive. Unfortunately, the rig was bent above the spreaders, and the sails looked like they'd be on the boat since '85. I replaced the mast on my boat 6 years ago after one of my lower shrouds pulled out at the swage (corrosion). It was not cheap. So that pretty much killed the deal for me. The seller sent me an email today letting me know that an offer was accepted pending subjects, so I hope the new owners are factoring in the cost of dealing with an old bent spar and some tired sails...

Funny enough, I also looked at a Cooper 353 this weekend and am considering an Alberg 30 that my coworker is selling for a song. I'm not convinced that the Alberg is roomy enough, but I do like the reputation they have for being fully-capable blue-water boats. The Cooper is a bit out of my price range.

I like sailing my Luna a lot, but we're just starting to think about going cruising next summer for 1-3 months (North), and she is not going to cut it. I'm just starting to look around, but for cruising this coast (in the rain!), the attraction of a pilothouse is significant. If we head out cruising, it's quite likely we'd have another couple onboard for at least some parts of the trip. So to high-jack Jgbrown's post entirely (I can do that to him, in exchange for a slip right?), here's what I'm looking for:

30-38 ft
sleeps 4
Strong sail inventory
Probably a pilothouse
Probably a full keel
Would favour a metal boat
Would favour a boat that has more of a commercial boat level of exterior finish rather than a pristine yacht shine (a major plus for the 34' pilothouse above) 
$10-25k

I'll consider anything that comes up, and will actually favour the ones that have a lower price and 'some work required' as long as fiberglass work and sanding aren't involved. I repainted the topsides on my Luna last year, and while it looks splendid, I'm not interested in ever doing that kind of work again  But replacing a rig or an engine isn't a deal-breaker for me if the price reflects that. I promise to keep as composed as Jgbrown was.  Thanks!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

76Trombones said:


> I like sailing my Luna a lot, but we're just starting to think about going cruising next summer for 1-3 months (North), and she is not going to cut it. I'm just starting to look around, but for cruising this coast (in the rain!), the attraction of a pilothouse is significant. If we head out cruising, it's quite likely we'd have another couple onboard for at least some parts of the trip. So to high-jack Jgbrown's post entirely (I can do that to him, in exchange for a slip right?), here's what I'm looking for:
> 
> 30-38 ft
> sleeps 4
> ...


If the Cooper 353 is too steep, how about the 316? There are one or two for sale currently I think.

Actually though, your list of preferences indicate that a Horizon steel boat or maybe one of Brent Swain's might suit. The Horizons have the "commercial boat" feel about them. I have no personal experience with Brent's boats so can't comment but he's a member here so he might weigh in.


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

JgBrown, Congratulations, and I hope you'll stay with us here at Sailnet! I've enjoyed following your search. Want to hear about what slip you find, how your new boat does for you, etc.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Update: had a survey yesterday, once I saw her come out of the water, I knew I'd made the right choice, bottom was in great shape, surveyor was very thorough, and helpful, gave me tons of tips on how to fix the things in the recommendations and where to get good parts for less. 
He also caught the fact that the prop zinc was almost toast, a frantic taxi run to West Marine sorted that. Hull was great, he said the most common problem areas on the Alberg were in great shape. 
He even gave me some suggestions for smaller afternoon projects, and things to do so I could tell what was normal, and therefore what wasn't later
152$ for the haulout, 720$ for the survey.



76Trombones said:


> Ok, you'll probably all get a kick out of this posting, but after discovering this thread I pretty much had to become a member and high-jack jgbrown's thread.
> 
> Firstly, I own a Luna 24' that's been a great weekend boat for me for the past 7 years. I just got space at Burrard Civic Marina, and also just clipped my keel leaving Silva Bay two weeks ago :S Embarrassing to say the least, because I know better, but the damage isn't too bad. The boat is out of the water getting the keel rebedded at Strait Marine in Steveston. Jgbrown, if you need a place to tie up for a week or two in False Creek you may be able to have my slip until my boat's out of the yard. I'll check with the Marina tomorrow. Maybe fire me a pm with some contact info.
> 
> ...


The Aloha 32' over in Ladysmith was a really nice design, immaculate, and a great custom built winter cover included, owner appeared very retentive and careful. I seriously considered having the cover on as a liveaboard in the winter it was warm, and clear and added a ton of warmth. Broker mentioned he thought offers around 32k would be accepted. He is amazingly thorough, and a great guy to deal with.

The CS33 in Sidney with self steering vane asking 37k was fantastic as well, so amazingly roomy for the length. the fresh water one from Toronto was pretty rough externally, looked like she had a really hard life in comparison. Both are moored next to each other.

Actually, there is a great potential deal down in the USA I'll PM you about.

Might be worth looking at, though it'd be stretching the budget a bit.

Antares isn't roomy, but huge tank capacity compared to other 30's, great equipment and tons of storage(plus the new motor sails and riggin in the last 2 years) makes up for that. With good digital tech, other than charts I can live with small space. I read my e-book, smoke my e-cigarette and ride my e-bike. Massive data storage in ultra low power cases is easy to build, I'll be building in a custom DC ultra low power computer system(including direct DC powered 24 or 28" 1080p IPS monitor as time and money permits. 
One of the first projects after the must-dos will be a big bimini/dodger, it will give me a lot more usable space! I plan to put a shower in the cockpit as well. 
re: slip that would be incredible, since I still need to sort out my house and move all my belongings this weekend, I'm a bit nervous about leaving her at anchor until I know my way about a bit better!

EDIT: I second the Brent Swain boat recommendations, I would love one! I really like his bilge keel design, and his whole philosophy towards boats. It really resonated with me, if I hadn't come across the Alberg, I would have put a solid offer in on that CS33, and if nothing came of it, I would have settled in to be patient for one of his to turn up in my price range(not anytime soon!)

EDIT2: I think a good hard dodger, plus soft bimini would give you a ton more space on the Alberg, and maybe be the best of both worlds, I didn't like the permanent pilothouse much. I found an interesting design for one for an Alberg 36 that would scale down nicely I think, but make it so I could remove the vertical panels and collapse it down flat with the vertical panels stored underneath horizontally.


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## 76Trombones (Apr 24, 2012)

I do like the Horizons for sure... there's one here that looks very nice (a bit out of range again though). And Brent's boats look nice too. Thanks for the suggestion of the Cooper 316, I'll take a look to see what's out there.


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## 76Trombones (Apr 24, 2012)

JgBrown, got your PM but can't reply apparently because I'm an new member (something about the feature being disabled for the first 7 days)... PM your email address and I'll contact you there instead. 

I talked to the marina (Burrard Civic) yesterday. Unfortunately, your Alberg 30 is just a bit too long for my slip, but the wharfinger said that they could fit you in on J dock. No liveaboards allowed, but it may give you some flexibility until you find a place? I like the bimini/dodger idea too... if we go the Alberg route, I'd be keen on that.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

My email is J_L_Brown at shaw dot ca


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

First night aboard tonight! While we were doing inventory, a goose flapped aboard and settled in. Chased the flying ****-generator off immediately. Joel said that'd never happened before. Went out, motored around for a while, did an inventory of anchors etc and went over all the systems. 
Still looking for a slip, hard to believe I've got my very own boat! It would have a ton more room if I was totally single, I would have the V-berth for storage instead of as a double bed, anybody got any good fold up systems for that, rather than a large single mattress that prevents access to everything?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Here is one solution on a Hallberg Rassy.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

mitiempo said:


> Here is one solution on a Hallberg Rassy.


That's the usual solution - split the V cushion into two halves. It's less comfortable when sharing though, due to the split "seam" in the middle


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## souljour2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

mitiempo said:


> Here is one solution on a Hallberg Rassy.


Brilliant..I think vee-berth access like this is the way to go...and if I re-configure the vee-berth on my C-40 (the way many owners have I understand) then I will make every attempt to have double "clam doors" like this...Here's some pics of the way mine looks now...you can see why many have already done a conversion of the C-40 vee-berth...as much as I hate to...it's so old-school traditional the way it is...I may join the dark side as well...no I'm definitely going over there...lol. There's just no need for so many single berths....a double berth up here would be sweet and allow me to sleep there and keep the salon dinette an actual dinette/booth all the time...to eat on and entertain,etc...last photo is from a sister C-40 "Castanet" and more like what i'd want...btw...the lime-yellow paint was not my doing...but rather the work of some recent PO...


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

My actual preference is a double to the side as below. That was on a 35' boat I used to own.

My complaint with my CS27 is that with the filler piece out of the V-berth each side is too narrow to sleep on. The cushions do not come inboard as far as the door opening, which is centered. I am going to make one side wider and lose a bit of open space where the filler goes.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

souljour2000 said:


> Brilliant..I think vee-berth access like this is the way to go...and if I re-configure the vee-berth on my C-40 (the way many owners have I understand) then I will make every attempt to have double "clam doors" like this...Here's some pics of the way mine looks now...you can see why many have already done a conversion of the C-40 vee-berth...as much as I hate to...it's so old-school traditional the way it is...I may join the dark side as well...no I'm definitely going over there...lol. There's just no need for so many single berths....a double berth up here would be sweet and allow me to sleep there and keep the salon dinette an actual dinette/booth all the time...to eat on and entertain,etc...last photo is from a sister C-40 "Castanet" and more like what i'd want...btw...the lime-yellow paint was not my doing...but rather the work of some recent PO...


I've never understood those criss-crossed singles forward - you can't use them as sea berths so why give up the only fixed double? I could see it if there was a double aft cabin but otherwise?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

mitiempo said:


> My actual preference is a double to the side as below. That was on a 35' boat I used to own.


Pullman style is my personal fave for a double berth but usually when done like your pic they are only a wide single - could two use that one?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

SloopJonB said:


> Pullman style is my personal fave for a double berth but usually when done like your pic they are only a wide single - could two use that one?


Yes, but they will have to be good friends.

It is hard to make a large pullman in a smaller boat unless it is quite a ways aft.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

mitiempo said:


> Yes, but they will have to be good friends.
> 
> It is hard to make a large pullman in a smaller boat unless it is quite a ways aft.


The pullman mid/forecabin with the head all the way forward in my cousins Cat 42 is my personal fave to date. At least for coastal/liveaboard use.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

First night on board. Whoa! Small bed in the V-berth!!!
I thought I was comfortable in small spaces, having spent a lot of time sleeping rolled up in my tarp beside my motorbike in construction sites and fields.
If I was sleeping alone it would be a great fit, I'd sleep beside the fireplace in the main cabin, the V-berth is cold, and damp. Didn't help that she insisted on sleeping head to the bow! We survived though. 
Definitely need to get the trim sorted with some new chain up front to even out the weight if the V berth is going to be slept in.
I think the Hyper-dry is put in wrong(upside down) the fabric is on the bottom, but the pictures of installs online show it fabric side touching the mattress which makes more sense to me. 
I can see a lot of potential, so much wasted space(like the 1'x3'x4' high space behind the head) and screwy build quality. Some parts it seems no expense was spared on perfection, only to be lost by using whatever screws were handy to finish the job. I think making one side of the main cabin settees a proper bed will be a huge help, it doesn't need a lot of extension to be a lot better sleeping space, and that would free up the V-berth storage to be used again, the sheet of plywood across the whole berth right now makes it impractical for anything but sleeping quarters. I'm thinking of cutting down the wall that creates the back of the Settee, and installing a fold up ledge that would increase the width another 6". That would give me a double on one side. 

Is there any reason not to increase the height a bit? It would allow me to increase the width out towards the hull, and dramatically increase storage space. I was thinking a woven mat in a bed frame would be even better than hyperdry, just made out of 1.5" nylon webbing. I could even make it so it would drop down to work as a couch, or fold right up to the wall creating more sitting space. Any good sites for boat design?

What interior stuff is structural? I'm assuming the main cross cabin walls are, but not so sure about the interior walls creating the settees.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

The bulkheads (cross cabin walls) are structural, but often the fore and aft structure is as well. In an Alberg I would think most permanent cabinetry is.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jgbrown said:


> What interior stuff is structural? I'm assuming the main cross cabin walls are, but not so sure about the interior walls creating the settees.


You have to assume that anything solidly glassed to the hull is structural. Boats built in those days were sort of like ultra strong egg cartons. Bulkheads, partitions, longitudinal faces of settees etc. all stiffen the hull if they are glassed in.

If you aren't sure of the importance of a piece you are contemplating cutting or removing, get an experienced eye to check it out first.


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## 76Trombones (Apr 24, 2012)

I would agree with mirtempo there. No touching the bulkheads! You could probably get away with cutting some holes or replacing some of the settee structure... BUT I'd be very careful because they are certainly structural longitudinals, and you don't want to reduce their section modulus. 

Is your boat named Antares? I just looked at a green Alberg 30 named Antares on Friday!? So confused...


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Too funny! That's correct. Green you say? Where was she? Mine's not green! Brown sailcover, white sides. Antares as well though. Who was the owner? 
Not planning to cut bulkheads, I'd like to reduce the settee back height by about 16" though, then extend the seat back towards the hull. 
There's about 8" of gap behind the Settee, losing that plywood means that I can fit a double bed in about the same space, it's definitely not glassed to the hull! the spacing makes sense because otherwise you'd hit your head, not a big deal if I am planning that to be the bed.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Jeremy

You mean the seatback shown below? Are you trying to create a berth with your head to starboard and your feet to port?

ps The V-berth might seem roomier with your feet toward the bow.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Exactly! wrong side though, other side is a bit longer. Nope, head forward, feet aft. Or vice versa. 
I agree, problem is she doesn't want to sleep downhill! EDIT: Yanmar is a bit of a pig, need more chain or something up front to level out. 
EDIT: with a fold up lip like on the practical settee I saw somewhere on here, and without that rail I would easily get a wider berth right there so long as it's not structural, regain V-berth access and head sink etc without blocking anything.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

The original Atomic 4 weighs over 300 lbs dry - A Yanmar 3Gm weighs about the same. Maybe there is too much heavy stuff stored aft.

One solution I've seen is a sliding seat bottom - the seat and its support on the settee front slides out and the back cushion adds to make a larger bed. 

Do you have any pictures?


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

I'll take some. I like the sliding seat bottom, but I want to keep a bit of aisle clear, and that space behind the settee is totally unused. The sliding bottom makes total sense, on something like the CS33. With the aisle width of the Alberg, it's not ideal, I might as well just make a drop in that connects both sides, since it would only be another few inches, but that means that getting to and from the head/sink requires climbing over both ends of the bed, annoying for anyone still sleeping!
That almost unusable space below the cabinets would be perfect for a bed, I could box in the space for durability since I'm making the bottom a bit higher, or even just move the panel a bit farther outwards, and put in something stronger if it's critical.
It would make the living space way more functional, and actually increase storage(may increase strength as well, depending on how I frame it, and it would only reduce the height of the seatback by 12" max


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I would live with it for a while before you get out the saw. Other ideas may come to you after a while.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Jgbrown said:


> First night on board. Whoa! Small bed in the V-berth!!!
> I thought I was comfortable in small spaces, having spent a lot of time sleeping rolled up in my tarp beside my motorbike in construction sites and fields.
> If I was sleeping alone it would be a great fit, I'd sleep beside the fireplace in the main cabin, the V-berth is cold, and damp. Didn't help that she insisted on sleeping head to the bow!


Move some gear around to re-trim the boat so that you are sleeping level and then sleep toes first instead of headfirst. You will find it is much roomier.

It's funny how different sailorsa prefer different layouts. I like a v-berth. Looked at Nonsuch 26s, Bayfield 29s and SWMBO and I realized we would be happy to put up with a smallish head and a v-berth over the expansive head and convertible settees of the Nonsuch and Bayfield. It's nice not to have to pack up all of your bedding to make the house usable during the day, and nice to have some privacy if someone wants to take a nap while someone else is cracking open a fresh bottle of rum to share with the freeloaders, er friends, who are riding out the rainstorm.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

bljones said:


> It's funny how different sailorsa prefer different layouts. ....... It's nice not to have to pack up all of your bedding to make the house usable during the day, .........


After 12 years with boat partners and making and breaking the 'convertible' dinette berth every day, finding a boat with two doubles outside the main salon was way up on our 'want' list. Though we are usually doublehanded, we do often have guests overnight or for a week or two in summer.. and even though privacy is a bit of an illusion on most boats, being 'out of sight' is something.

Brian's advice to live with it for awhile before getting going on any major mods is good input.. inside and outside the boat.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

I'll take some pictures, the v berth is sleep only, and requires a feat of gymnastics to get in. Plus it's very cold and damp compared to the main area.
I wouldn't be so anxious to make changes if the v berth wasn't 40 percent of my living space.
The goal is to make the settee wider so minimal adjustment required to sleep.
I'm not much for guests, and my futon with bedding storage underneath works very nicely for us on land (no room for a bed on land)

also just learned my boom is very low for an alberg and not adjustable, no wonder clambering inside requires flexibility. Moved the boom to one side, immediately feels more spacious.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

what boat did you actually get, reading back.. I'm not quite sure.. guess I missed it somewhere back there in the discussion.. congrats!


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

How she sits now. Anything dropped inside rolls aft quickly.










Vberth.
Because of the rectangular mattress used to create storage space for clothes on either side, we can sleep on edge only, neither one on back or front, and rolling over requires waking up and coordinating. Even trickier, sitting up requires getting your legs off the bed by worming out first! I'm used to small spaces but my tarp felt enormous by comparision.

boom height:








While standing in the cockpit, I am much taller than the boom, no adjustment up front makes getting in and out in raingear wearing a pack a tricky manouver. When I started researching biminis I noticed most albergs have much higher booms, with standing room under them in the cockpit including a grate. What's normal for height over cockpit on an alberg? My boom is not adjustable at the front, I think I have a topping lift and could use that to help, for now I've moved it off to one side and bungeed it to the lifelines, with a heavy line around a cleat and the boom as a safety in case a wind hit and snapped the bungees or some other unforseen issue.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

SOP for booms at dock or anchor is to move them to one side or the other. At dock move the boom away from the dock. Raise the topping lift as well.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

jackdale said:


> SOP for booms at dock or anchor is to move them to one side or the other. At dock move the boom away from the dock. Raise the topping lift as well.


Might not work for the A30, but we have a snapshackle on the bottom of the mainsheet that means we can disconnect it from the traveler and hook it to the toerail when anchored or at the dock. Really gets all that out of the way. We have a long, high bridgedeck that makes boom clearance in issue too.

Jg you're just going to have to 'figure out' the Vberth calisthenics.. also while the mattress is nice, not having full width cushions up there will really limit your sleeping space, as you've found. Move the clothes storage to shelving high in the ceilings. Sleeping heads-forward is not the norm, though if the forward end is wide enough it could work.. reduced headroom above the pillows is another issue trying to use it that way.

I can tell you it really is a pain to make up a salon berth and stow it every morning.. try to avoid that path if you can.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Faster said:


> Might not work for the A30, but we have a snapshackle on the bottom of the mainsheet that means we can disconnect it from the traveler and hook it to the toerail when anchored or at the dock. Really gets all that out of the way. We have a long, high bridgedeck that makes boom clearance in issue too.
> 
> Jg you're just going to have to 'figure out' the Vberth calisthenics.. also while the mattress is nice, not having full width cushions up there will really limit your sleeping space, as you've found. Move the clothes storage to shelving high in the ceilings. Sleeping heads-forward is not the norm, though if the forward end is wide enough it could work.. reduced headroom above the pillows is another issue trying to use it that way.
> 
> I can tell you it really is a pain to make up a salon berth and stow it every morning.. try to avoid that path if you can.


I agree! I`m going to see what I get do to sort out trim today!
Or I may simply sleep the other way and we can fight about it. :laugher
How could I make shelving in the ceiling, above the mattress there's little clearance.
re saloon berth: That's the point of making the bed easy to handle, a wide single with small flip up extender minimizes fussing required. I live that way on land now, every night means dropping the couch back, and sorting out the bedding. I'm ok with it. From past low quality futons I know that if it takes too much effort to move that it never does get moved though, and becomes a continual annoyance. Making the berth wider, with a smaller adjustment each day is the reason I'm looking at that settee rail panel with malice and a screwdriver.

EDIT: brilliant idea with the snap shackle! It just so happens I spotted something that might be just the ticket when I was poking about the spares/misc parts bins in the cabin yesterday.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jgbrown said:


> How she sits now. Anything dropped inside rolls aft quickly.


You must have an elephant in your cockpit lockers - it takes quite a bit of weight or "moment" to trim an Alberg that many inches by the stern.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Jgbrown said:


> How could I make shelving in the ceiling, above the mattress there's little clearance.


 on a boat the "ceiling" is the fabric/slats/panels covering the sides of the cabin/v-berth, not the expanse overhead, which is called the overhead.

On whiskeyjack we have worked to maiximize our v-berth space by hanging gear hammocks from the ceiling on both sides, building in bulkhead bookshelves, adding a cabinet into the filler panel , and fitting sheets to each cushion making it MUCH easier access the lockers under the v-berth.
Shot taken through the hatch. LED reading lights are mounted to the underside of the shelves.









Here you can see the filler panel cabinet and the fitted sheets and one gear hammock peeking out from behind SWMBO. The sticky bag attached to the overhead is a storage bag for the hatch mosquito netting.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

SloopJonB said:


> You must have an elephant in your cockpit lockers - it takes quite a bit of weight or "moment" to trim an Alberg that many inches by the stern.


Mystery solved at least in part! it's the diesel. Talked to a very knowledgeable sailor today. He said 55 gallons of diesel  That'll make the Alberg stern heavy. 
I know it's topped off right to the filler cap too, PO showed me how to fill it from a portable tank, and topped off.
:laugher

He also gave me some food for thought about the settee and moorage. I'm going to moor at Granville island for now 
I've made an agreement with my dad to do that to get secured for now. 20$ a foot though. Was supposed to be all in for that, now they're telling me tax+288$ security deposit.:hothead No wonder they've got slips available 640$/mo for mooring an Alberg 30. Should've got a Nonesuch 30. that'd give me good living space for the $.
 
I'll be getting on the waitlists and bothering the other marinas while I'm there, and come up with a plan if I want to anchor or wait for a better place after I'm more capable of taking care of myself.

EDIT: thanks for the look at your V-berth, that makes a lot of sense.


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

That is quite a bit of fuel for your size boat! I would have thought something around 20-24 gallons would be more normal.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

That's a lot of diesel. The solution is to store heavy spares/tools, etc under the V-berth. Maybe extra canned food as well.

$20/ft is a bit expensive - liveaboard allowed?

My moorage just went up 5% - it is now 16.46 plus tax. Makes my monthly $497.75. Still I consider it a good deal - great location, power included, and the hotel health club is included as well.


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## 76Trombones (Apr 24, 2012)

Hey Jg did you ask again at Burrard Civic? No love?

The Antares that I looked at is being sold by my coworker... a fine specimen for sure, check it out here. He's had the boat for some time and done some significant cruising in her... hawaii and Haida Gwaii...

If we were just looking for something that the two of us could cruise, the Alberg might be good... but I'm really thinking about getting 'the right boat' for a 2-3 month trip up the coast next summer so am really interested in a pilothouse. I like the Cooper 316s, Gulf 29 and 32... and I'm keeping my eyes out for other possibilities...


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Jeremy

I'm not sure if you have seen these sites but they may help.

The Alberg 30 Site

BoatUS.com: Boat Reviews by Jack Hornor, N.A. - Alberg 30

The Great Lakes Alberg Assoc.

West Coast Alberg 30 Page

Yves Glinas On Self-Steering
This is the site of Cape Horn windvanes - the owner sailed his A30 around the world - there is a lot here about his boat.

Atom Voyages - The Salsa Voyage
This is about preparing an A30 for a circumnavigation


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## 76Trombones (Apr 24, 2012)

Ha, you missed an interview with Yves... 



and a classic video about Cape Dories but also Alberg... 



 ha


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

mitiempo said:


> That's a lot of diesel. The solution is to store heavy spares/tools, etc under the V-berth. Maybe extra canned food as well.
> 
> $20/ft is a bit expensive - liveaboard allowed?
> 
> My moorage just went up 5% - it is now 16.46 plus tax. Makes my monthly $497.75. Still I consider it a good deal - great location, power included, and the hotel health club is included as well.


Officially: nope. The guy running the lift lives aboard there, and says just to not be a PITA.



76Trombones said:


> Hey Jg did you ask again at Burrard Civic? No love?
> 
> The Antares that I looked at is being sold by my coworker... a fine specimen for sure, check it out here. He's had the boat for some time and done some significant cruising in her... hawaii and Haida Gwaii...
> 
> If we were just looking for something that the two of us could cruise, the Alberg might be good... but I'm really thinking about getting 'the right boat' for a 2-3 month trip up the coast next summer so am really interested in a pilothouse. I like the Cooper 316s, Gulf 29 and 32... and I'm keeping my eyes out for other possibilities...


Looks nice! Burrard is apparently really getting aggressive with security cameras etc to catch non-registered liveaboards.




mitiempo said:


> Jeremy
> 
> I'm not sure if you have seen these sites but they may help.
> 
> ...


^ LOL I think bwb.org has got a virus, or whoever runs the site has a funny sense of humor.



> The Great Lakes Alberg Assoc.
> 
> West Coast Alberg 30 Page
> 
> ...


Thanks for the great links! Atomvoyages is one I look at a lot, I just don't want to go pouring money in at this stage, 650$ extra per month changes the whole activity entirely.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Jgbrown said:


> ^ LOL I think bwb.org has got a virus, or whoever runs the site has a funny sense of humour


Thanks - I removed it.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

76Trombones said:


> Ha, you missed an interview with Yves... An Interview with Yves Gelinas - Alberg 30 Jean-Du-Sud - YouTube
> and a classic video about Cape Dories but also Alberg... Cape-Dory-Yachts-A-Standard-of-Value - YouTube ha


Thanks - I downloaded it.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

76Trombones said:


> If we were just looking for something that the two of us could cruise, the Alberg might be good... but I'm really thinking about getting 'the right boat' for a 2-3 month trip up the coast next summer so am really interested in a pilothouse. I like the Cooper 316s, Gulf 29 and 32... and I'm keeping my eyes out for other possibilities...


There are some sad looking specimens (ie, a tad neglected but perhaps otherwise sound) of boats over at Union Steamships Marina on Bowen Island.. you might take a page out of SNer Itgoshen's book and try to track these apparently absentee owners down and make an offer.

There's a Gulf 29 among them, but a variety of others too. Could well be worth the price of a walk-on ferry ticket and a couple of hours over there.


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## 76Trombones (Apr 24, 2012)

Thanks, Faster, for the tip re Bowen. Will do a day trip over there once my boat is in the water again!


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Hmm, too bad I didn't do that!(Kidding, I like Antares a lot)
Discovered the source of the boat smell. I looked in the bilge.uke
Black water, not sure how deep, the sludge I poked with a stick was 3/8" or more deep, and smells awful.
A bit surprised the surveyor didn't mention it when suggesting projects to start.
Having a tough time getting a hold of him too, a bit worrying when I've paid him 720$ for a survey that was supposed to be in my inbox by the weekend(survey was 7 days ago).
EDIT: Everything sorted with the surveyor, he's back in my good books, and I'm even more impressed than before. My concerns were promptly and thoroughly addressed once we got back in contact, the lack of survey was due to a mis-communication between two people, and was a totally understandable issue. I would definitely recommend him.



Nevermind refinishing the brightwork or sorting out sleeping arrangements first job is going to be ozone/some type of mold killing activity, followed by disinfecting/cleaning the fresh and black water systems, a top to bottom clean and new foam. After that I'll run a dehumidifier until it gets reasonably dry in there, followed up by another round of ozone to kill anything that started growing during the cleaning and then tea tree oil on everything. The foil insulation panels are also coming out for inspection, I'm worried about what might be growing behind them too now.

I know long term ozone exposure is bad, but a one time use to get ahead of the swamp down there seems sensible, once ahead of it I should be able to keep it from getting like that again.


Just started testing the tea tree oil this week, I took some unpasteurized applejuice that had started to go off, and left it out, 3 days later it was covered in a thick layer of mold. 5 drops of tea tree oil in the center and it's visibly dieing, no smell of mold anywhere either. Very interesting to watch.
Much more fun than the time I spent last night poking my nose into different places on the boat.


EDIT: weird part is, the top of the bilge is spotless, the areas you can see by removing flooring anyways, only back past the aft battery is where it all flows down to, and that's the scary part of the boat! I half expected to see frogs in there.

PO just mentioned the bilge pump doesn't ever get the last 3" of water out. Guess that'll be some fixing.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Update: We're goin' to Granville island!
bloody expensive(20$/ft) but the savings of going farther north or south enough to drop the cost substantially don't add up, adding a vehicle or other expenses makes it a draw, with the location ending up the deciding factor. I get full internet(wifi from school)/unmetered electric included.
I'll be sharing Antares with Krystal, and she's just landed a job at the boatyard there, so we'll be right next to her work, 2 minutes from our school and 15 min from my work.
They've also offered to give us advice on upgrades to Antares. We worked out a rough plan for equivalence as well, Krystal is uncomfortable with a free ride, a sentiment I can totally appreciate, I've had trouble being comfortable anywhere I'm getting a free ride, but the job is only seasonal. With the experience she'll be gaining, she's going to put in an agreed upon number of hours into upgrading Antares through the winter in place of paying a share of the moorage fees.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Update again: We made it to Granville, some white knuckles on my part, but smooth motoring all the way.  

all was not what it seemed. The "brand new 2011 Yanmar" is a '96. With an oil leak, and possibly a rusting through area.

The "brand new cruising mainsail" is a used sail bought off another boat. 
The tank capacities were in L not gallons in some cases.
The bilge pump doesn't reach the last 3" of water, it's oily and wonderfully moldy too.

The whole reason I went for her, rather than a more equipped and easier to live aboard boat needing less cosmetic work was because of that new engine and sail with rigging recently updated. 
She'll be a great boat when I'm done, but I'm now worried about whatever other "fixes" have been applied. We'll be going bottom to top(taking care of the really seriously important bits first!)




Caveat emptor indeed.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jgbrown said:


> Update again: We made it to Granville, some white knuckles on my part, but smooth motoring all the way.
> 
> all was not what it seemed. The "brand new 2011 Yanmar" is a '96. With an oil leak, and possibly a rusting through area.
> 
> ...


So you didn't get as good a deal as you first thought, you still got a very good buy. The bilge pump issue sounds like an easy fix.

Don't worry, all boats need to be worked on - it's part of what draws most of us to them. If all you had to do was sail them it would quickly get boring IMHO.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

SloopJonb: I would normally agree, except that the new sail and engine were mitigating the other repairs she needs, if the ad had been correct, I would have not accepted the offer from the owner, and jumped through tons of hoops and additional expenses to make it all happen in a week, from seeing her to sale to loan to survey(at 24$/ft) to purchase.

The next owner will surely appreciate the care and attention. I told the owner about a Jeep I'd bought and built, the next owner sure loved it, he promised me he wasn't dumping a mess like that onto me, and it's exactly what I've got! The next owner's going to love me, same as with the Jeep but the hopes I had for sailing this summer appear to be moving farther away.

I had a line on an immaculate CS33, which I passed on due to sail and engine age, and they were newer than what I've actually got!
There are corrosion issues on the engine in addition to the leak, the wires are cut to the hours meter, the cockpit sole has the big cut line from where someone(stupidly) stuffed the diesel tank in behind the engine causing the squat she has.
The interior basically needs to be redone entirely, mold/damp have damaged most things including woodwork, the leaking oil/general crap in the bilge aren't helping the pump any. The same with 90% of the brightwork. Everything from the inverter(dead) to the VHF(gone), exterior lighting(broken or silly) to the sea-valves need work. I can't hoist a sail at all without voiding insurance until I replace the tiller. No electrical(DC or AC) until everything's redone/replaced and no propane usage until I drop a few hundred there. 
I do re-learn eventually but the process isn't painless! I had hoped to perform basic maintenance and upgrades, anknd not lose my shirt on my first boat, I already had my eye on what I was working towards.
Such is life, I'm not worried about it, I know I can do it, I am just displeased. I have fallback options, but nobody likes being a sucker, though I still think the previous owner is a genuinely nice guy who got carried away when writing his ad and didn't check his facts, rather than someone who played me deliberately. 

I sort of felt like the Robinson's with their bow, each time we came across another issue/dodgy DIY fix over the past week I'd think that at least we had the new engine and sail up until that failed to deliver! 


Thankfully Mitiempo is going come over from the island to help me re-do the electrical, and has been great helping me find the right electrical panels without me spending a ton of cash on things I don't need since I'd be a lamb to the slaughter again otherwise.
My dad was really impressed with his work, and he doesn't impress easily when it comes to attention to detail and care, so I know at least one part of her is going to be solid right off the bat!
I had initially planned to leave her with her current name, despite having had a name in mind, but it's too fitting now to pass up.

Guess I'd better go start that build blog


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Saw her in her slip the other day, no one on board... looks not bad from across the finger. 

Lesson's learned.. remember 'Trust, ..... but verify'


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

How much more verifying could a total newb do? I talked with the owner extensively, then since I didn't know enough to tell the difference I hired a surveyor to verify, after his assessment of the needed work + the value of the engine and sail being new I went ahead. At double the rate of a lot of other surveyors, the additional expense seemed worth it to avoid exactly the situation I'm in, I was enthusiastic, surveyors are level headed. Everyone involved is NOW telling me all the things I asked about before and got a different answer to. Like any known issues, does the engine leak oil? How much does she hold? Any moisture issues?
assuming ignorance or that I'm being lied to more than just the usual minor annoyances people hide seems a safer bet next time. 

Edit: I'll be there during the day most days now, feel free to stop by and say hi


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Unfortunate series of circumstances.. Maybe you could share the surveyor's name via PM? That's steep and I would have hoped he'd have at least been able to deduct that "New" was not.

Good bones, though, I think.. as you say the next owner will be happy...


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Jgbrown said:


> How much more verifying could a total newb do? I talked with the owner extensively, then since I didn't know enough to tell the difference I hired a surveyor to verify, after his assessment of the needed work + the value of the engine and sail being new I went ahead.


a) Call a good lawyer, the initial consultation should be free. The original owner misrepresented what he was selling in writing.

b) A complaint to the surveyor should be good to get the price of the survey refunded. If not, see a)

You may still have a good boat, but it would be a better boat if the price reflected its actual condition.


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

It sounds like your surveyor didn't have the owner's "claims" in hand when they did the survey, and was just looking at the condition of the boat against the cost? I say this, because I can't believe that any cruising main for a 30-ft boat is worth $9,000 (as stated in your description) and the surveyor should have certainly told you that at least. Were you there for the survey?

You might have cause to take some of it up with the surveyor. But maybe you're overworried about the engine. Hard to picture a 96 Yanmar rusting through anywhere, except maybe the exhaust elbow.

Anyway, I hope it's better than you are thinking.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

An glance at the engine serial number would have confirmed the age of the engine, and I am surprised the surveyor didn't make note of this.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Faster said:


> Unfortunate series of circumstances.. Maybe you could share the surveyor's name via PM? That's steep and I would have hoped he'd have at least been able to deduct that "New" was not.
> 
> Good bones, though, I think.. as you say the next owner will be happy...


There have been a few annoying mistakes, even based on the info the owner gave him, the year of the engine was wrong(he listed it as new in 2010, but had been told it was new in 2011)
One of the recommendations we'd agreed on was put in the wrong section(fix within 30, instead of do not use until resolved) which put me in a bind.
I was told I'd get the formal survey by the purchase date, but didn't get it until I called up and asked again, when everyone was out of their office. He'd put it on his bosses desk but nobody actually got it to me. I finally got through to him because the guy running the shipyard had his contact info.
He did cover himself, in the formal survey it notes in legalese that areas of the boat were inaccessible due to liner, etc. It also says that no observations were made of anything above the deck, and that the engine should be checked out by a mechanic and no formal observations of it would be made. 
I am surprised too that he didn't at least notice the new/not new, it was something we'd talked about in combination with the tank capacity as reasons I was very interested in Antares as a potential long term boat. Tank capacity I told him what I was told, but the paper survey ended up listing estimated tank sizes based on stock tanks(still bigger than my fuel tank is I believe). No mention that it was likely a liters to gallons conversion issue(same with holding tank). On the plus side he pointed out the loose zinc on the prop so I could replace it at the time.

I had a quote from a couple places for 500$ including haul out. I paid 24$/ft+152$ for the haulout on top.
I felt it was worth it for the thoroughness, since I started to get some reservations when the owner pushed the time frame harder.



zedboy said:


> a) Call a good lawyer, the initial consultation should be free. The original owner misrepresented what he was selling in writing.
> 
> b) A complaint to the surveyor should be good to get the price of the survey refunded. If not, see a)
> 
> You may still have a good boat, but it would be a better boat if the price reflected its actual condition.


a) I'm going to talk to the owner first, he's away most of the week though. I have a healthy dislike of lawyering up and going after someone unless we can't sort out our issues sensibly on our own. Especially since I think the misrepresentation wasn't intentional. Sorting out one way or another is required. Especially now that I'm in contact with the previous previous owner who has much the same story, the guy before HIM apparently did the upgrades, then had to sell. Some of which may have been pre-2000. The Jabasco head is also not new 2011, and the pump leaks. As does the sink freshwater tap, though I was told that part way through the sale at least.

b) The surveyor's caveats(which we didn't discuss during the verbal run-down of the survey at the time) covers him. He still did his job, most of it very well, he just didn't do a couple parts of it well at all IMO. However things like the track the mainsail travels on I would consider on the deck, not above the deck rigging, and it requires removal and fixing because the wood underneath is swelled up/sticking out and decaying and it jams the travel of the piece that connects to the main-sheet.



arf145 said:


> It sounds like your surveyor didn't have the owner's "claims" in hand when they did the survey, and was just looking at the condition of the boat against the cost? I say this, because I can't believe that any cruising main for a 30-ft boat is worth $9,000 (as stated in your description) and the surveyor should have certainly told you that at least. Were you there for the survey?
> 
> You might have cause to take some of it up with the surveyor. But maybe you're overworried about the engine. Hard to picture a 96 Yanmar rusting through anywhere, except maybe the exhaust elbow.
> 
> Anyway, I hope it's better than you are thinking.


Yes he did, we specifically discussed the motor and sail being new and valuable, he agreed that I was buying the motor/sail with an older boat that needed work attached. I was present at the survey, we went over some things together, he gave me some tips on places to pick up the parts I'd need for some of the minor stuff, and pointed out some things that weren't relevant to the survey but that I should fix. At the end we spent a half hour doing a verbal run down of all the points he'd noticed. A couple of the things that made it into the written survey which I got 8 days later, 4 days after I should have had it weren't discussed at the time(the corrosion on the water injection, the oil in the bilge and by extension where it was coming from, I was told by the owner later that it was just dribbles from filling the oil since it was awkward to get around the engine.)
I am surprised too, Mitiempo spotted the engine issue, and he's on the internet!

The weird part is that he lists the model and serial, and a build age of 2010(not 2011), but they stopped making them earlier, and the previous owner thinks that it is a '96 as Mitiempo spotted from Victoria, and had a rebuild(maybe even a full one, though the quality of the paint job makes me wonder, engine coloured paint all over the plastic yellow oil cap on the front only makes me wonder...) Yanmar lists the engine model as built from 1983 to 2005, as does Wikipedia.
Apparently most boat diesels get about 1000 hours per decade, so I suppose I should estimate it at 1600 hours and add the hours meter back on.
I guess overall I'm annoyed, and disappointed in some people, though I don't think it was malicious, but a series of small mistakes, exaggerations etc that added up. I would hope that most sellers would at least check the dates of things they are claiming were done in the past year.
Hindsight is 20/20, but I couldn't have seen a lot of this before I knew more, I was relying on the surveyor and owner and the fact that so much had been done this year as guides to the purchase, I thought I was playing it safe vs the boats I liked better.
Enough bitching on my part I think, I'm going to go run some errands and get a start on cleaning Antares. I'll meet with the seller this week, and hopefully we'll figure out where I'm actually at right now, and where to go from here. He's still a good guy, and I'll still have a beer with him, I just won't buy another boat from him.

If anyone feels like stopping by to say hi, feel free, other than this week I'm there 10am-2:30pm most days. 
The beers are as cold as the hull can make em, but the rum tastes fine either way


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jgbrown said:


> There have been a few annoying mistakes, even based on the info the owner gave him, the year of the engine was wrong(he listed it as new in 2010, but had been told it was new in 2011)
> One of the recommendations we'd agreed on was put in the wrong section(fix within 30, instead of do not use until resolved) which put me in a bind.
> I was told I'd get the formal survey by the purchase date, but didn't get it until I called up and asked again, when everyone was out of their office. He'd put it on his bosses desk but nobody actually got it to me. I finally got through to him because the guy running the shipyard had his contact info.
> He did cover himself, in the formal survey it notes in legalese that areas of the boat were inaccessible due to liner, etc. It also says that no observations were made of anything above the deck, and that the engine should be checked out by a mechanic and no formal observations of it would be made.
> ...


Yet more evidence to support my opinion that the vast majority of "surveys" are a meaningless expense. If home inspectors were this bad there would be government action, regulation, legal action etc.

IMHO one is much better off to simply have an experienced friend or two check a boat over for the cost of drinks than to hire the vast majority of "surveyors".

If you KNOW your prospective surveyor is of the caliber of Boatpoker, that's one thing but I have heard stories like JG's ad nauseum.

The worst part is they seem to cover themselves so well that there is no legal recourse for this sort of incompetence (better termed fraud).

Considering the values involved, small claims court might be a better option than a lawyer. You apparently have written descriptions that are completely false so it might be pretty straightforward to get a few grand back.

I have a question though - how did YOU miss things like mould, rusty engine, oil in the bilge etc.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

SloopJonB said:


> Yet more evidence to support my opinion that the vast majority of "surveys" are a meaningless expense. If home inspectors were this bad there would be government action, regulation, legal action etc.
> 
> IMHO one is much better off to simply have an experienced friend or two check a boat over for the cost of drinks than to hire the vast majority of "surveyors".
> 
> ...


I DIDN'T. They were explained to my satisfaction by those with more skill and the expertise. Especially considering I was paying one of them a pretty penny for that expertise I felt I should trust it. They also came highly recommended by the yard, and I needed a survey for insurance.

The mold/rust were explained away by the dampness of the boat overall from living aboard at anchor, and a rain entry issue at the rear hatch, it was minor surface corrosion, more than I'd expect on a year old land vehicle engine, but on a boat I deferred to those with more knowledge who didn't find it unusual. Knowing now that the part that is rusty tends to rust through from the inside is a bit concerning. Oil in the bilge was explained because of how hard it was to fill the engine vs the atomic 4 that used to be in there, made sense since it is a real pain to get around. I didn't really smell it the first time I was on board, and I didn't know what to look for then for the other issues.
Also bearing in mind, that the bilge I was seeing wasn't actually the real bilge(there's a small hole behind the aft battery to get to it). Every other boat I looked at had a shallower bilge, which looked like what I saw first. I didn't know enough to tell the difference. The oil in the bilge water I can see now having gotten in there is very different from the oil I saw on the surface of what I thought was a great clean bilge. 
The cost of dealing with mold/interior/cosmetic issues should have balanced out against the engine and sail value.

Too soon old, too late smart(er).


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

I totally get your position of trusting others. No doubt I would have done the same. While you may be right that little is to be gained by going after anyone, it sounds to me like your surveyor did a poor job.

But hopefully--and it sounds true--you've got a great boat! Judging by the dates, I guess she's got a 2GM20F? Not a bad thing to know you've got (or will have) a new mixing elbow on it. Do you know it's leaking oil, or is the evidence what's in the bilge? Because that stuff could be practically prehistoric.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

jg, don't get too stressed or feel too frustrated or feel too cheated...
at the end of the day, you're on a boat, and you're on a boat that is still very good value.

If there is an upside to a surveyor's report with glaring omissions and errors, it is that it makes YOU more knowledgeable about your own boat, and the boats in your future.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

arf145 said:


> I totally get your position of trusting others. No doubt I would have done the same. While you may be right that little is to be gained by going after anyone, it sounds to me like your surveyor did a poor job.
> 
> But hopefully--and it sounds true--you've got a great boat! Judging by the dates, I guess she's got a 2GM20F? Not a bad thing to know you've got (or will have) a new mixing elbow on it. Do you know it's leaking oil, or is the evidence what's in the bilge? Because that stuff could be practically prehistoric.


In the 20 minute motor from the anchor in false creek to Granville island the clean white area under the engine down to the bilge got some nice big black oil streaks down it all the way to the bilge. Two owners ago posted a question about the mainshaft oil leak here on sailnet, elected not to fix, confirmed to me that he never fixed it. Previous owner apparently believed it was just spilled oil from filling each time, but when two people haven't fixed a known issue and visible evidence of it still occuring... I'd say it's still there.
Bearing in mind I ran her right at 1800 RPM the whole way, after a suitable warm up period following all the reccomendations for the motor, I'm annoyed.
Bljones: 
Not stressed, but certainly pissed off. Taking the supposedly safe choice boat vs the boat you really wanted originally, and finding out the main factors in that decision were falsified(intentionally or not) leaving you at risk with less insurance as I'm thinking that unlike a brand new Yanmar a 16 year old one doesn't have a warranty... and when those factors are actually worse than the boat you really wanted, which would still have fit in the same slip it's not really conducive to a pleased buyer in any way shape or form!
I am tempted to recreate a truthful version of the ad. Some things I accepted as different from the ad like the amount of chain. I would total all the included stuff out at maybe 1000$ including the anchors, and that's being generous I think. She's still a pretty boat, but compared to a fully equipped, beautiful condition one with a large supply of spares, I didn't save enough to make it a great choice.

Even the damn hyperdry(breathing material for under mattreses) was installed wrong side up and grew mold. 

I'm thinking a good clean tommorow on my day off, and a sunset in a hammock on deck will sort out my mood, but I'm not there yet!
Previous owner is back Wed night, we'll have a beer and a talk this weekend, I still have faith that he's a decent guy who made some mistakes, rather than a scammer.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jgbrown said:


> the mainshaft oil leak here on sailnet, elected not to fix, confirmed to me that he never fixed it. Previous owner apparently believed it was just spilled oil from filling each time, but when two people haven't fixed a known issue and visible evidence of it still occuring... I'd say it's still there.


When you change the fluids, put a can of "seal sweller" in - sometimes it can help a shaft seal quite a bit.

Bleachy water is the best thing to get rid of mould in my experience.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

I want to clarify two things since I'm worried these points might have gotten lost in typed form on the internet. 
:
Firstly, the surveyor did a great job elsewhere.
The turn around time was a big issue, and not mentioning the value of the engine/sail and their ages being unlikely to be true was not great. They're covered by the caveats in the survey, but I am still a bit annoyed by it. 
It wouldn't stop me recommending him to someone with an older boat, who had plenty of lead time for a sale, and was aware that they should have additional inspections for sails/engine if there was any doubt about those before buying, as they are exempt from the survey. His inspections of the deck, hull etc were thorough and comprehensive, I found him courteous, professional and his advice elsewhere was valuable. 
I won't be asking him for my money back, but I will be advising him of the motor age, and associated issues, a simple google from my phone proved that engine couldn't have been built in 2010(hindsight...)

The seller is a decent guy, I am cross with him for misleading me, but I don't think he did it on purpose. He sounded quite distressed when I told him what I'd discovered, his advertising was false, and lead me to a decision I wouldn't have made but I don't feel he did it with intent. I do not have any issue with him as a person. I'd still sail with him, or have a beer with him.


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

Jgbrown said:


> Firstly, the surveyor did a great job elsewhere.
> 
> The seller is a decent guy, I am cross with him for misleading me, but I don't think he did it on purpose.


Hmmm. You are a _very_ nice guy--maybe too nice. To me this feels like a "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, is a duck" situation.

I bought a boat with a known 20yr old 2GM20F and the surveyor stated that he wasn't doing an engine analysis or anything, wasn't a diesel expert, etc. but he observed the engine while running, looked at the exhaust, checked the real RPM against the tach, checked max RPM, checked general condition of hoses, looked at the primary fuel filter water catcher, and spotted a pretty good (and obvious) fuel leak. I think an engine leaving a black streak below should have been noticed. Seems like the oil-slick bilge should have been noticed.

As for your other duck, maybe he really is that clueless--more pleasant to think that than to believe he lied. But the "new" engine? 100 hours, but with a cut wire to the hour meter? I'm hearing quacks.

Maybe you won't be getting anything back from them, but I don't know that I'd be recommending that surveyor or having a beer with that seller.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

You're a good guy, Jeremy.. Karma is on your side.


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## Jd1 (Aug 16, 2011)

There is no excuse for a surveyor to not spot the fact that an engine is MUCH older than claimed. Even if no engine survey is done,there are a lot of things happening in the engine compartment that a surveyor needs to look at and comment on.
I also have a hard time believing that the PO did not know that the engine wasn't new. I would be willing to cut him slack if the engine was pulled, completely refurbished and repainted and physically looked new. How long did he own the boat ? If less than a year, wouldn't that be a red flag right there? If there was a new engine, wouldn't there be warranty paper work? Would he not have requested this material from the previous PO when he bought the boat?
On something like a new engine which is a substantial cost item and with that engine being in the boats description I would definitely not turn the other cheek - it is a case of deception!!!

A related question but not related to this particular sale but sales in general: Would an honest sellor refuse to sign an official declaration which is part of the sales contract that his description of the boat is truthfull and accurate to the best of his knowledge and that the sale is null and void with purchase price and costs going to the buyer should the boat have been significantly misrepresented?
Since any broker has weasle words to the extent that they know nothing and are not responsible for anything, would they allow a meeting between seller and buyer to discuss all details of the boat and put the boats condition in writing or is it the brokers job to keep the two parties appart ?
Would the average broker accept a sales contract drawn up by the potential buyer's lawyer that includes protection against misrepresentation? Buyer protection for this sort of thing is standard for the house market here in BC and if you do not declare an accident with a car over a certain amount when you sell it then they can nab you as well.

This is scarry stuff .....


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## hboy (Oct 20, 2011)

Hi:

As a hopeful soonish boat buyer, I have followed this with interest ... and horror!

I would think that if a buyer says something material about the boat, like the engine is new, I would hack in a line into the agreement, something like:

The sellor warrants that the engine is new. This is a material condition that if not true, renders this agreement null and void. The sellor will immediately return the deposit monies ...

Any lawyers here feel free to translate the above into legal such that we all have a template here.

hboy


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

hboy: in hindsight yes, I should have, but since I felt that I knew less about the sale, I let the buyer use a form bill of sale. If it weren't for the fact that I had saved a copy of the ad from the internet, I would have no recourse. However in my case it's clearly fraudulent misrepresentation, I'm still holding out hope that it wasn't intentional and the seller will come back with a reasonable price adjustment without me dragging him to court. He clearly dated each item, and confirmed verbally to me that it was all done last year, and that he had proof. I have gone through the ad line by line, where there isn't duplication, and there is a date, it is clearly wrong, the least wrong is the batteries, they are 2007 not 2011. Everything else is worse. From saturated and stinking hoses from the head, to the butchery of the V-berth woodwork during the "rebuild", the water under the cushions and moldy foam nothing is what it was supposed to be. The photographs the seller ended up using as examples of Antares before restoration clearly show the same engine, with the same alternator that concerned me! It even shows the same wiring connections that were supposedly a later addition! They actually showed a proper V-berth too. 


I spent an entire day gutting the interior, even with a ful face respirator and nitrile gloves I've been feeling sick since, my on deck helper who was less exposed got sick at the same time too, symptoms all match too. 

In future I will never trust a surveyor. Considering the premium price, and that the Alberg is very small for a 30'(21' at waterline, and 8.6' beam) I would tend to think the surveyor could at least have been thorough. I know it's not their job, but a simple advisory to walk away, like I've heard of other surveyors giving clients when they found indications of problems or neglect would have been so nice.
After the third "nobody could be this stupid" I would think it would be reasonable to caution a client. Like the holding tank vent tube being run only as far as the air intake dorade box. 


In the first two hours yesterday I found so much neglect and so many red flags about this being a project boat that I never would have bought her, if I was a surveyor I would have advised a client immediately that it was likely a big project boat.

I didn't even have to get to the V-berth or head to find them, and considering the Alberg is effectively two settees a couple feet apart, with 2 rows of cupboards, there's not a lot to find wrong!

If I had one piece of advice it would be don't be afraid to really dig into the boat yourself, if the seller won't let you remove things to see underneath or look at anything could be causing a problem, walk away. It's ok to really dig into a boat, I know what to do next time. I was trusting too much in the expertise of an expensive paid expert, and a seller with more experience.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Somewhat happy ending, I'll post more details later, the seller made good on the problems, with a fair resolution all around, he refunded a portion of the sale, (3k) based on the issues, it was what he had saved by living aboard. We both got less than we expected and both learned a lot. He is also unhappy with the surveyor, without me saying anything about the surveyor he told me what the surveyor told him, and feels that he is now unlikely to trust a surveyor in future. 
Considering the most recent finding of damaged deck caused by the delaminated mast beam fixed with Robertson screws, I'm not sure exactly what the surveyor did do properly.


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## 76Trombones (Apr 24, 2012)

Ugh. Just caught up on this thread... Sorry to hear about all the frustration and disappointment Jeremy. Glad that it has worked out a bit better lately though...
Anyone looking for a NICE Alberg 30, my co-worker still has his for sale... you won't find a nicer more honest seller, and he's taken great care of the boat over the past 8 years of cruising her (Maui, and Haida Gwaii included).


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

I did a cruise and learn this past weekend that started and ended on Granville. I saw Antares on the dock and went over to say hello. Jeremy and Brian (mitiempo) were on board doing a very extensive and necessary re-wiring job.

It was nice to be able to attach names and faces.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

It was nice to meet you too Jack. Mitiempo(Brian) is heading back to Victoria, 4 days of hard work, and Antares' electrical system is fantastic now! He does great work, I'd say it was cheap, considering the tremendous amount of work that he did, but that would be doing the quality of his work a disservice. 
From before the job even started he was helping me figure out what to do in terms of the panel, helping me find better deals and educating me on what to look for, and where to spend or save on parts.

He re-wired the boat end to end, replacing almost all of the wiring(including a huge chunk of engine wiring that was bizarre)basically the only things left were the engine and engine control panel harness. The wires up the mast(but rewiring that whole connection as the terminal block was a disaster, with doubled up positives and other oddities. (someone ran a standard cable but used both black and red for +, with a shared ground on a bar). 
Removing all the wiring that was left in place but cut on both ends, tracing each wire out, and re-designing how the electricity is handled on the boat, with proper ground busses etc. 5 grocery bags of wire came out. Large rolls went in, cut exactly to fit with proper ends and heatshrink.
All the wiring is logical, ordered and easy to understand, with connections set aside for future upgrades.

Best of all, I now at least have a good idea of what each thing actually does, Brian taught me a lot about what he was installing as he did it, and how all the different components worked and where their wires ran. 

If I had tried to do this myself, I think I would have regretted it, although I was initially worried about the cost of doing this all at once up front, I am so thankful I decided to go for it. What Brian did in 10 minutes would take me hours to figure out, if I ever got there at all. Now I have a totally solid and reliable system, and I understand how to fix it for the most part. This makes everything else I need to do easier too, since I can run power tools etc as I need, and got a lot of good advice on where to go next, not just electrically. 

He also produced the best quote about the survey. He said that he'd seen many good surveys, as well as bad ones, and that mine was just fine, the only problem being that it had nothing to do with my actual boat. :laugher




I was planning to give the boat a good clean today, but then the holding tank decided to let go through the toilet at an unpleasant rate, on my nice clean floor and into the bilge.
Pump won't hold it back even locked out, I capped the vent line and tried the discharge pump to build some vacuum in the system, to stop it so we could go pump out. No luck, that pump is plugged completely. Went to the pump out station, on the way we got to (re)discover the Alberg's lack of reverse, something I'll have to work on figuring out how to handle soon. Once we made it to the dock, we discovered that the system has so many air leaks the pump won't suck it out. I added extra hose clamps and taped all the joints but the vacuum would just pull it in and then keep leaking air, refusing to pick up any crap. 
We had to run the hose through the hatch and down into the inspection port to suck out the delightful soup. A solid half inch of filth remains based on the thickness I could see having scraped the sides with the hose a bit. They didn't allow any fresh water to be added, so I'll have to go back and forth quite a few times I think.
The person running the pump out station said it was 5$/run of the pump, and since it took 5 tries of sucking air it should be 30$, but that since it wasn't really working properly we could just pay for one.

Removing the head at least went way up the list of priorities, still have to figure out a way to clean it so I don't get coated in **** when I cut the tank up to remove it. Mitiempo had a great suggestion for replacement, instead of going to a composting toilet. After that's sorted hopefully I can get to the mast beam repairs without too much more drama.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Came by your boat a couple of times today, but missed you, obviously.

Life's an adventure, isnt' it?

Kudos to Brian indeed.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Any wiring can be a nightmare if not done properly. I was on a boat on which the previous owner had decided he needed a blower. So he got some dryer hose and a 12 volt fan which he hooked up to a positive and a ground with a switch. The end result was a short in the system that drained the batteries after a period of time sailing. We were unable to start the engine and had to sail into Port Renfrew where the good folks lent us a couple of battery chargers.

I saw some of that mess that came out of your boat.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Sounds familiar! I had a bilge blower too, the hose is just loose on top of the driveshaft and stuck somewhere before the Lazarette, and oddly the blower was taped to one hose, the other hose went to the other side of the blower. Not sure what the benefit was really in recirculating air... Considering both were loose lying in the Lazarette, even without the direct loop I can't imagine the air exchange was very good. Hose won't get taken out till I get in behind the engine, still haven't figured out how to do that. 
It was very nice to meet you, are you often in Vancouver? 


Faster: What time did you stop by? If you let me know ahead of time, I'll be there for sure so long as it's not during work.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Jgbrown said:


> It was very nice to meet you, are you often in Vancouver?


Not very often. I have been doing most trips out of Sidney. I will be back in Vancouver in the middle of August. The boat I am bringing back from Maui is docked at the Vancouver Rowing Club.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Cool  Well hopefully by mid-August Antares will be sailable and ship shape.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

The owner of the surveying company came by just now. He looked over the boat, and acknowledged mistakes had been made. I appreciated his thoroughness and honesty about my situation, and his assessment of the repairs I'm facing and how I might tackle them. We've left it at that for now, we'll both reflect on things, and talk over a refund of a portion of the survey cost to help with the mast support repair. 

That he took the time to do this, didn't bull **** me about any part of the situation says a lot about his integrity, and the values of his company. 

Edit:I'll be more detailed when I am not writing from my phone.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

LOL- you're phoning in a post about a surveyor who appeared to have phoned it in.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jgbrown said:


> The owner of the surveying company came by just now. He looked over the boat, and acknowledged mistakes had been made. I appreciated his thoroughness and honesty about my situation, and his assessment of the repairs I'm facing and how I might tackle them. We've left it at that for now, we'll both reflect on things, and talk over a refund of a portion of the survey cost to help with the mast support repair.
> 
> That he took the time to do this, didn't bull **** me about any part of the situation says a lot about his integrity, and the values of his company.
> 
> Edit:I'll be more detailed when I am not writing from my phone.


Why isn't he refunding the entire thing? It sounds like it was a completely useless survey - did it catch *anything?*


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

The through hulls are all accounted for as being on the boat. Also I do need another fire extinguisher. Jokes aside, feel free to stop by, I've got a copy of the survey on board. You can see what you think of the survey vs the boat. I've had varying opinions on the matter from different folks. Plus I'd be happy to meet any forum folks  
I'm hoping the company will come through with the refund, and I appreciate that they at least acknowledge the issues. Whether you would feel comfortable with them you could decide after comparing the two?


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## 76Trombones (Apr 24, 2012)

Hey Jg, hope the restoration is going okay. My boat is back on the dock at Burrard now, send me a PM and maybe I'll come find you next time I'm in the area... wouldn't mind seeing your boat and talking about your 'experiences'...


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Damn missed that, last few days I've been working away a bit on the boat. Cabinets are almost all apart now, excluding the galley area which I think I can leave. Construction adhesive is all chiseled off etc. Wish I'd known you were in the area! Faster came by on Friday, but that was before we started the newest round of "are you ******* kidding me"
after which we have all the cabinetry apart in the main cabin except the galley and icebox.
I'll never believe the line about them being structural again though... Pictures to follow. 

So long as the hull is sound and engine is OK, I think we're approaching the turn around point to start building back again.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Jgbrown said:


> So long as the hull is sound and engine is OK...


It's an Alberg, with a Yanmar. you're good to go.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

I said that about 5000$ ago too... lol. Still no clue what to do with the mast beam. I've got more pictures. Faster(Ron) came by today and had a look too. A friend has offered to have a go at the boat with a thermal camera and some heaters see if we can't see anything in there, otherwise I'm stumped. Thinking of doing it from the inside now, outside looks good, interior ceiling looks bad. Not sure what's there.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Jeremy

Which cabinets did you remove?

As far as the beam, whether there is water in the deck core or not the current beam is not strong enough and the laminations are coming unglued. 

What are you looking for with a thermal camera?


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

main cabinets in the cabin. 
The suggestion was to soak the deck for a few days, then heat up the inside and look from the outside, see if we can see anything around the mast step.
I agree. But how to fix it is the question I have. The deck doesn't match the inside for damage, was it already shored up, was it botched? How can the gel coat/deck look fine when the inside is sinking etc. Why cut out top when the bottom has issues, but top looks good. I'm just not sure how to approach it basically.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

A moisture meter would be easier and maybe a more reliable way of telling the core condition. I should have brought mine over when I was there.

I tapped the deck around the mast and it seemed solid, no dead spots that I could tell. Maybe the solution is to replace the beam, which isn't in good shape, with a better one and leave it at that. I would include aluminum as we discussed between the beam and bulkhead.

Whether the top gets cut open now, later, or never the beam needs replacing. Replace the beam and see what happens over time.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I had a look at this issue the other day.. it is odd, as Jeremy describes. The deck from above appears sound, no visible deflection and no pooling of water (and we've had some rain lately) as you'd expect around the mast step with any localized depression. Doesn't mean that an original camber isn't somewhat, but not obviously, less, but from above it appears 'normal'. No crazing or stress cracks in that area at all. No obvious delam from a 'tap test' in that area either.

He's had some information that an aluminum plate was inserted under the mast step at some point. If this is true it was done from the inside, which may explain the apparent 'depression' which might be additional thickness, but the beam does seem stressed. In addition there's some separated lightweight tabbing and what appears to be some settling on the forward side of the main bulkhead's port side of the passageway to the Vberth (well off-centre and evidenced mainly by the fractured light tabbing). But again no similar indication on deck.

So his challenge now is to try to determine what's really happened/happening in that region, along with cleaning up a lot of other ill advised butchery below by the PO.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

My concern is that if I re-arc the beam, that middle of the M will get pushed up. If it is solid, then the mass goes somewhere. Also how to re-arc it or rebuild the beam without taking the mast off, and without getting myself a keel-stepped mast in the process. 
Also, how to replace the posts etc, and take care of any other issues may have caused it/resulted from it.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Jeremy

If the deck has the proper camber and isn't pushed down it is good as is. I would make a new stronger beam that fits the existing strange curve below to eliminate any future deck compression. 

If you paint the new beam to match the overhead the flat will be less visible.

You don't want a keel stepped mast - that would require way too many changes.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Brian: I meant keel stepped as in Wylie Coyote style, where I'm happily cutting away underneath and suddenly my mast get's 7' shorter on deck, and I get a keel stepped mast whether I like it or not, or a hole in the bottom. The problem with new beam only is it doesn't fix the distortion elsewhere, where things settled like you can see from the V-berth. I need to find someone here as skilled as you are with electrical but in the fiberglass and rigging department.

I'll happily pay them to help, I just don't want to approach this one alone with my experience level. Tabbing etc I'll try alone later after learning. Unless you feel like another trip to Vancouver?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Jeremy

If the deck outside is the correct shape I don't think you can do much below except allow for the strange shape that is there - except for removing the beam and the bottom layer of the deck under the mast and re-glassing it in the proper curve before replacing the beam.

I could come over in a few weeks if you want. There are a few electrical things to finish and once you attach the battery box the wiring can be improved in that area. I'm busy for a while with several boats - one pretty extensive.


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## sandysm78 (Dec 31, 2012)

Regarding the Swift 33 in Yachtworld: My husband and I have sailed a Swift for the past 6 years in Puget Sound, San Juan/Gulf Islands and Straits of Georgia. Wonderful downwind boat and very stable. Comfortable in rough seas that we get in this area. Not so good upwind/does not point high. It is very comfortable for two people who want an occational close friend or family member on board overnight. I love the boat, but if you need/want to sail upwind fast, not so good.


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