# Last Boat- Time to look at the end game Cruising Boat



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

OK its the bottom of the ninth. Kids are grown...end of the careers is in site. You are approaching 60. You are looking for your very last sailboat. You have $250,000 to spend for the total ( outfitting included). 

The cruising will be just you and your wife and the furthest you may go is 4-5 months at a time and to the Galapagos Islands from Annapolis Maryland. So north to Canada and South to Panama is the range. returning home to the Chesapeake most springs.

You have sailed for 30 years in proressively larger keel boats and have a older 35ft racer/ cruiser. You like performace sailing, but are willing to sacrifice some of the racing speed for comfort, but do not want to fall less than the 50% mark in terms of speed. You have done plenty of blue water sailing , but predominatly are a coastal cruiser now.

What would you buy and why?


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I think I might go with a nice C&C 35. Good performance and comfortable. Oh and you have one!

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Buy a Nonsuch 36, and put $150 000 in the bank.
better yet, buy two and save the north/south slog every spring and fall. Site one on the Chesapeake and one in the BVI.
Nothing performs to windward like a Boeing.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

bljones said:


> Buy a Nonsuch 36, and put $150 000 in the bank.
> better yet, buy two and save the north/south slog every spring and fall. Site one on the Chesapeake and one in the BVI.
> Nothing performs to windward like a Boeing.


2 big bat wings huh, with the mast at the bow.....hmmm


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## jimjazzdad (Jul 15, 2008)

According to the criteria Chef gave, I already bought my last boat a decade ago! My 'last boat criteria' is: approaching mid-seventies, balance, vision and hearing not what they used to be. Kids don't give a damn about the boat. Want to sell the house and downsize to a condo or apartment. Pilothouse motor sailor? Cruising catamaran? Or swallow hard and get a trawler yacht? Decisions, decisions...


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> What would you buy and why?


Valiant 40, of course (without hull blisters) and I will take your current boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Hey Chef,

If I pick out your personal experience/qualifications, which don't limit you, I'm left with $250k, predominantly coastal cruising, and not a full on racer, but fast enough. 

Can you give us any more? That seems to qualify every boat under $250k that doesn't sail like it was dragging an anchor. It might even help if you describe what you mean by comfort. Do you want max room down below or in the cockpit, or are you looking for some creature comforts, like A/C and a requisite genset locker.


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Dave, not sure which boat, but I'd want an aft cabin for extended cruising. Maybe a Passport. Hate to lose you from the C&C family!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Dufour 40E or a Perry Nordic 44.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Hey Chef,
> 
> If I pick out your personal experience/qualifications, which don't limit you, I'm left with $250k, predominantly coastal cruising, and not a full on racer, but fast enough.
> 
> Can you give us any more? That seems to qualify every boat under $250k that doesn't sail like it was dragging an anchor. It might even help if you describe what you mean by comfort. Do you want max room down below or in the cockpit, or are you looking for some creature comforts, like A/C and a requisite genset locker.


Protected Rudder
No full keel
No volvo engine
Sailplan including either two head furlers or detachable forestay
V berth and at least a double aft berth
Safe U shaped galley
24000 lbs or more
Lead Keel
AC and genset ( or room for one)
Espar heater
Comfortable salon plan for 2- no curved settes
Foreward facing Nav station
Top and front facing refeer and freezer
2 propane lockers
Davits or avaialability to install them
55 or greater HP engine no more than 2500 hrs
Dual racor filtering
Good windlass
Solar Panels
720 ah elctrical dc
Good inverter and battery monitor- can be added
Good charplotter- can be added
hearty autopilot- can be added
Good engine acccess on all sides
40 gallon holding tank with Y valve and mascerator
At least 8 opening ports
At least 4 opening hatches
Wood not lalminate interior
Little wood trim topside
Sailing abiliity phrf abive 50% of similar boats to windward
Draft 6 ft
Mast height less than 63 feet

Thats a lot of specs....hahha I am picky thats what has taken me so long.

It will only be my wife and I so only one head is fine. Salon must be comfortable for hanginkg out and reading in. Could be barrel chairs like older Bristols

The boats that have interested us have been Mason 44, Hans Chrisian Christina 43, bistol 41.1 and 45.5. Saga 43. But maybe there are others out there thats why I am asking. I am not afraid of older boats if in good condition as good boats last 60 years at least.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Dufour 40E or a Perry Nordic 44.


Nordic 44 is an interesting boat. I like more wood and it doesnt look as comfortable in the cabin, but I know they are well made. How do they sail?


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

Caliber 40LRC. 
Vailant 42 or 40
Hylas 44


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> Nordic 44 is an interesting boat. I like more wood and it doesnt look as comfortable in the cabin, but I know they are well made. How do they sail?


I haven't been underway on one, but my understanding is that they go well to windward, and will take a beating.

As is my nature, I erred on the side of "performance" vs. "comfort", which may not suit your purposes.

I have sailed the D-40E however. Double-handed in fact. Gorgeous and very comfy down below. Easy to double-hand, excellent upwind performance, rides like a Cadillac. Mmmmmmmmmm...


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

As new a Sabre 362 as you can afford to buy and keep 20-30% for refiit/modernization.

Fast, lots of teak down below (even has cedar lined hanging lockers, comfortable for cruising, even has a COMPLETE ICW friendly mast height below 55' - so it can do the Julia Tuttle and other bridges on the ICW.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Dave,
Quit describing my boat and just go out and buy one (or rather 2.5 with that budget).

Seriously, the Irwin 43 CC fits everything you have on that list - and my 38 CC does
except for the 55 HP engine (it's a 44), the wood trim topsides, and my 38 is 4k lighter.

And yes, I see the "no full keel" - define "full keel", mines a shoal draft long keel 

BTW - the Mason 44 has a longer keel than the Irwin, and the rudder mounted to it, so just toss that out a 'no full keel'. It's also got more wood topsides.

My Irwin 38 CC with a PHRF of 126 (New England - PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps) is *well* within the top 50% of similar boats.

and compares well with your PHRF of 123 - in the same region. 
Keep in mind PHRF is a factor of all points of sail 

Besides, you know once your wife sees my aft cabin you are sunk, screwed and tattoo'd; you'll be getting a center cockpit


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

I vote for a C&C 35 

* seriously, when I was in the business, it was routine for an older couple with a boat they knew like the back of their hands that had been perfected over decades of ownerhsip to sell it and get a big boat with every comfort known to man and then wonder why it was 20 times harder to get into a slip and 100 times harder to keep running.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

night0wl said:


> As new a Sabre 362 as you can afford to buy and keep 20-30% for refiit/modernization.
> 
> Fast, lots of teak down below (even has cedar lined hanging lockers, comfortable for cruising, even has a COMPLETE ICW friendly mast height below 55' - so it can do the Julia Tuttle and other bridges on the ICW.


36 Sabre is similar to what we have, fast nice accomadations,,,but I want something a little heavier with a skeg .


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

chef2sail said:


> Protected Rudder
> No full keel
> No volvo engine
> Sailplan including either two head furlers or detachable forestay
> ...


I think you forgot to mention the 6 high output commercial stove with double convection ovens. 

The Nordic 44 looks pretty good on the inside, though the one in Maine looks to have been finished off in _Herreshoff_ style with white bulkheads. This one has plenty of wood underneath. I wonder if the other one was owner finished?

1980 Nordic 44 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

This one is in Cali, but you could fit it out there, then head out to the Galapagos Islands, before coming back! So does the one who finds your new boat get your old one as a bonus? Seriously if you put yours up for sale, and I have not found a boat by then, give me a buzz.

I have always thought if I won the Lotto I would look at a new Passport LRC. They seem to be really nice boats and I have never heard of anyone who had one say they were slow.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

chucklesR said:


> Dave,
> Quit describing my boat and just go out and buy one (or rather 2.5 with that budget).
> 
> Seriously, the Irwin 43 CC fits everything you have on that list - and my 38 CC does
> ...


Ha...you are funny. I like the boat you are getting and would consider it in the next size up.

I guess this summer we will have to see if you new boat will keep up with our 35 old girl loaded with attachments. I am suspect to the Irwin speed and pointing ability, although I know they are not slow boats. No doubt the 38 Irwin has a great amount of room for its size below and some great advantages.

I like the Mason 44 living accomadations and the fact the engine is under the floor. It also is a rear cockpit which I kind of prefer, but am not married to it.

Its all a trade off.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Coquina said:


> I vote for a C&C 35
> 
> * seriously, when I was in the business, it was routine for an older couple with a boat they knew like the back of their hands that had been perfected over decades of ownerhsip to sell it and get a big boat with every comfort known to man and then wonder why it was 20 times harder to get into a slip and 100 times harder to keep running.


Understand Joje....but we have the 35 C&C MKIII and I have loved it for over 15 years now and I want something a little heavier for the trades as well as a protected rudder.

Dave


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

miatapaul said:


> I think you forgot to mention the 6 high output commercial stove with double convection ovens.
> 
> The Nordic 44 looks pretty good on the inside, though the one in Maine looks to have been finished off in _Herreshoff_ style with white bulkheads. This one has plenty of wood underneath. I wonder if the other one was owner finished?
> 
> ...


I saw the one in Ca...and also saw the one in the Hershoff interior. The others eem to have the wood I am looking for. I also looked at a 40 Mmordic here in Maryland last year. They are nice boats.

I know when the time comes I will have a teary day parting with my C&C35MKIII. Shes been a good boat to us and we have sailed her a lot of miles, but not too hard. She has a great combo of speed and comfort for a couple for sure. I know we could take her south on this trip, but there isnt enough weight in her for where I want to go.

I need to find my next boat before I put her up for sale and have been seriously looking for about 1 year now.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Melrna said:


> Caliber 40LRC.
> Vailant 42 or 40
> Hylas 44


I like the Hylas and the Valiant. The Calkiber is a good boat too, but it didnt seem as roomy as most 40s. It is super well made though.

dave


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

I sold some gear to a gentleman on his 2nd time around the world in a C&C 39. He had started in a full keel Alberg 35, but decided it was too slowwwwwww. He loved the 39 

Back in the day, the boats we worked on that seemed meant to be out there were Valiant 40s, various Pacific Seacrafts, the Caliber 40, and Island Packets (as long as you weren't in a hurry to get anyplace).

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1999/Caliber-40LRC-2418488/Rock-Hall/MD/United-States



chef2sail said:


> Understand Joje....but we have the 35 C&C MKIII and I have loved it for over 15 years now and I want something a little heavier for the trades as well as a protected rudder.
> 
> Dave


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm thinking about the perfect answer. 

However, why sweat the protected rudder for predominantly coastal cruising? Not sure if half skeg, full skeg, etc qualifies. You could add a monitor wind vane with emergency rudder to your re-fit and reopen the faster spade rudder market. Just a thought.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm thinking about the perfect answer.
> 
> However, why sweat the protected rudder for predominantly coastal cruising? Not sure if half skeg, full skeg, etc qualifies. You could add a monitor wind vane with emergency rudder to your re-fit and reopen the faster spade rudder market. Just a thought.


Yes Ive thought about that. Just the spade rudders are so exposed and all it would take is one coral head andit gets broken. I have one now and love the performace you get out of it, but it only sits about 8 inches shortertha the keel if that.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Coquina said:


> I sold some gear to a gentleman on his 2nd time around the world in a C&C 39. He had started in a full keel Alberg 35, but decided it was too slowwwwwww. He loved the 39
> 
> Back in the day, the boats we worked on that seemed meant to be out there were Valiant 40s, various Pacific Seacrafts, the Caliber 40, and Island Packets (as long as you weren't in a hurry to get anyplace).
> 
> 1999 Caliber 40LRC Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


No to the Packett...doent sail to windward at all ..great interior


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## Philzy3985 (Oct 20, 2012)

1956 Hinckley_Owens Bermuda 40 Cutter sailboat for sale in Maryland ?

I mean, it might be a little more work but sure has style to it.


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## Ronin120 (Jan 3, 2013)

Given your considerations I'd recommend either a Passport or a Gran Soleil. I've spent a fair amount of time on offshore trips on variations of both. The Passport will get you around the world with a bit less "performance" than your C&C and the Gran Soleil will give you a bit more performance than the Passport. Good boats both.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

They are a little hard to find this side of the pond ... but have you looked at all at the Moody line? They sail pretty well, are built stout, and have eye-popping interior room. Hands down the best heads in the game, & true galley kitchens you can cook in at sea. Here's the layout of the Moody 36:










And here is the 38CC. You can find them in good shape for $150k. Average to above average sailers.

ETA: Looks like they came standard with Volvos, tho. Have to look for one that has been repowered, or budget for a nice Yanmar.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I looked to see what Cabo Ricos were on the market.. I've always admired them.

Came across this one...probably not what you're looking for...just wondered if you had considered Cabo Ricos

1995 Cabo Rico Northeast 400 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think the Passport 40 (V berth layout) fits your bill with the only serious exception is the forward facing nav table.

There are a variety of layouts, however, we've spent some time on the V berth layout version with the full U shaped dinette, my wife and I used the aft cabin, it was fine. Even has an under-seat 'ensuite' head... Galley is pretty impressive, rock solid under way, skeg, long fin, goes nicely to weather too - surprisingly so I thought.

Either way the one thing you're going to give up/miss when losing the C&C, esp if you don't modify the rudder requirement, is the ability to back into slips and fairways.... IMO that's not a minor issue, esp if stopping at a lot of unfamiliar marinas along the way.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Faster said:


> I think the Passport 40 (V berth layout) fits your bill with the only serious exception is the forward facing nav table.
> 
> There are a variety of layouts, however, we've spent some time on the V berth layout version with the full U shaped dinette, my wife and I used the aft cabin, it was fine. Even has an under-seat 'ensuite' head... Galley is pretty impressive, rock solid under way, skeg, long fin, goes nicely to weather too - surprisingly so I thought.
> 
> Either way the one thing you're going to give up/miss when losing the C&C, esp if you don't modify the rudder requirement, is the ability to back into slips and fairways.... IMO that's not a minor issue, esp if stopping at a lot of unfamiliar marinas along the way.


I like the passports


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Passport 40


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

My dock neighbor is selling his passport 40 that seems to meet many of your criteria and is comfortably in your price point: 1989 Passport 40 AC Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com He's generally cared for the boat well, selling due to health issues.

if you look closely at one of the pix of the boat in its slip, you'll see us next door under the shrink wrap


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

wingNwing said:


> My dock neighbor is selling his passport 40 that seems to meet many of your criteria and is comfortably in your price point: 1989 Passport 40 AC Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com He's generally cared for the boat well, selling due to health issues.
> 
> if you look closely at one of the pix of the boat in its slip, you'll see us next door under the shrink wrap


Interesting, that listing is the same layout as the one we've been on, except the engine sits higher in the boat.. hence the large engine box/table that makes the dinette an "L" rather than a "U". The Perkins on our friends' sits low enough to be under the dinette seat - I'm guessing engine access is better here.

This listing is also missing the 'eyebrow trim' on the cabin top - that's a plus (difficult to keep looking nice) The only other thing I generally don't like is the tiled countertops, but the rest looks pretty nice. You could do a lot worse, Dave...


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Faster said:


> Interesting, that listing is the same layout as the one we've been on, except the engine sits higher in the boat.. hence the large engine box/table that makes the dinette an "L" rather than a "U". The Perkins on our friends' sits low enough to be under the dinette seat - I'm guessing engine access is better here.
> 
> This listing is also missing the 'eyebrow trim' on the cabin top - that's a plus (difficult to keep looking nice) The only other thing I generally don't like is the tiled countertops, but the rest looks pretty nice. You could do a lot worse, Dave...


Yes, the engine location is kind of cool and after seeing how clean Chef's engine is he could use it as a warming cabinet for food waiting to be served! throw in some surplus scraps of some nice quartz counter top and you would be set.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

wingNwing said:


> My dock neighbor is selling his passport 40 that seems to meet many of your criteria and is comfortably in your price point: 1989 Passport 40 AC Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com He's generally cared for the boat well, selling due to health issues.
> 
> if you look closely at one of the pix of the boat in its slip, you'll see us next door under the shrink wrap


She is a beauty although a tad overpriced. looks well takemn care of. I will look at her. Still has that damn black iron fuel tank.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

miatapaul said:


> Yes, the engine location is kind of cool and after seeing how clean Chef's engine is he could use it as a warming cabinet for food waiting to be served! throw in some surplus scraps of some nice quartz counter top and you would be set.


Ha....to funny. I like the engine location. Some like on the HC 43 complain of deisel smell though


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

chef2sail said:


> Ha....to funny. I like the engine location. Some like on the HC 43 complain of deisel smell though


I would think there would be no more smell from that if kept clean and free of leaks, as I am sure you would. I could see getting sound insulation being an issue though as the panels look to be tight on the engine. That is a very nice boat, are the "iron" tanks under the floors, or are they more assessable than say an Island Packet?

I agree she does look a bit overpriced, about 50,000 more than all the other listings. Looking at the ones with teak decks, there really is not a lot of deck on these as the coach roof goes quite far forward. I think it looks good without it.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

chef2sail said:


> Protected Rudder
> No full keel
> No volvo engine
> Sailplan including either two head furlers or detachable forestay
> ...


Dave, if we take out these little phrases: 2Sailplan including either two head furlers or detachable forestay...Sailing abiliity phrf above 50% of similar boats to windward", we could be talking about a motor boat.

I guess that basically in what regards cruising one of the main points is how much sailing versus motoring you are going to do and that is an important point since diesel is expensive and it will be more in the future. I guess this should be the starting point for someone that wants a sailboat for cruising and just not to live in it and I know it would not be your case.

Basically if you want to follow the trade winds almost any boat will do. If not and you want more flexibility your choice will be a lot narrow and the difference to boats that actually can sail with 6K winds will be huge in what regards sailing time versus motoring. I am not talking about speed, just sailing instead of motoring.

Another point I have doubts is this one: "24000 lbs or more" I guess it relates with stability and motion comfort but the weight, even if it counts for stability (and motion comfort) is not the only factor and you can have boats with substantial less weight with a better stability than one with that weight.

And finaly I am quite sure this is not a good idea: "I am not afraid of older boats if in good condition as good boats last 60 years at least."...sure this will not be important if you just live in the boat, sail it locally and with good weather but I think you want a bluewater boat and will sail it plenty offshore. Putting an old boat in a sailing condition of a 5 year old boat will coast you a lot and you will have a maintenance issues all the time, not meaning problems but always things to take care and substitute.

A car can also last more than 60 years, the reason you dump them is because their performance is outdated and because it would cost a fortune maintaining it in perfect working order.

About your long list nobody never gets exactly what he wants. The best is to make a priority list, some things will only be preferences other will be deal breakers...and regarding that, what performance you would want on your sailing boat, not regarding speed but regarding the ability to sail with light winds would be an important one because this will define the type of sailingboat.

I hope this helps.

Regards

Paulo


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

PCP said:


> Dave, if we take out these little phrases: 2Sailplan including either two head furlers or detachable forestay...Sailing abiliity phrf above 50% of similar boats to windward", we could be talking about a motor boat.
> 
> I guess that basically in what regards cruising one of the main points is how much sailing versus motoring you are going to do and that is an important point since diesel is expensive and it will be more in the future. I guess this should be the starting point for someone that wants a sailboat for cruising and just not to live in it and I know it would not be your case.
> 
> ...


You are right, I think I mentioned that I wouldnt be able to get everything...boats are often tradeoffs.

No motorboat for me We like to sail and do so in many different conditions

As an example one of the boats I like the Saga 43 has a great sailplan. A furled genoa for downhill sailing and a smaller furled sail for upwind. No self tacvking feature as I dont like that.

I would envision we would be doing a lot of trade sailing in the time we were in that part of time we were were on the boat, and conversely when we came back north we spend a lot more time close hauled and heading to windward so I want a boat which can do that effectively. ( This rules out brands like IP for me)

There are only two of us so the interior space needs to be comfortable, but not as wide open extensive as a Catalina, Hunter.

I understand what you say about the new vs old issue., I find very few newer boats that looks to me ( its only me) the way the older designs do. I know there have been many advances in hull design and I am obviously not going for that necessarily. ( Sure I want the Outbound but cant afford it). As far as maintainenece and replacement. That is a forever thing. Many of my friends are starting to replace stuff in their 12 year old boats which I replaced in the last few years. They may have newer boats, but my equipment is newer in many ways now. I see value in some of the classic car designs of years past and dont just beleive in throwing them away.

dave


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

wingNwing said:


> My dock neighbor is selling his passport 40 that seems to meet many of your criteria and is comfortably in your price point: 1989 Passport 40 AC Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com He's generally cared for the boat well, selling due to health issues.
> 
> if you look closely at one of the pix of the boat in its slip, you'll see us next door under the shrink wrap


Looks like a well care for boat but it does seem a bit pricey when compared to others? I still love these boats and I believe it fits many of c2s criteria?

40 -44 ft is a great size IMO for a couple and this boat with the additional aft stateroom would accommodate nicely the occasional guest. (hint hint)

This kinda nails it doesn't it:
"The design emphasis of this traditional sailing sloop is on liveaboard comfort without compromising on sailing ability or safety at sea. The Passport 40 is laid out with this in mind. Interior space is prioritized and allocated according to use. This approach to design resulted in a yacht of exceptional comfort and livability."

That startboard settee is huge! But worthy of a nice sea berth with a lee cloth. Comfortable dedicated nav station. Well designed cockpit ( I am partial to the T shape cockpits  ) 5' +/- draft still reasonable for the bay. 56' mast height, good enough for the ICW? New galley counter tops, no problem. I'm guessing you would want to redo the house bank and the charging options to include solar & wind?

Just say'in

Just noticed, its not a cutter rig? Um maybe a deal breaker? LOL


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

chef2sail said:


> Protected Rudder
> No full keel
> No volvo engine
> Sailplan including either two head furlers or detachable forestay
> ...


http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=64851&url=

THe Tatoosh. It seems to be a faster boat than the typical long distance cruiser. She at least will get out of her way somewhat. I think it has everything you want... except maybe the heater. We dont do a lot of that down here.

THis vessel is in our marina. I know the broker and the privious owner and have contacts to the owner before this. The previous owner got out of this boat after cruising the carrib, and bought a 2002 Beneteau 473 which is a awesome boat but apparently does not fit many of your requirements (but she is ffffaaasssttt!!!). That is why he changed boats - he likes to race and push the limits.

I do know this boat has had massive refits. It is half your budget, and in my opinion, worth a lot more than asking. I have not been down below, but have walked by her many times. For those that do not know the Tatoosh, she is a Bob Perry designed boat, with a bit more empahsis to speed. SHe is made in the Ta Shing yard in Taiwan, which is generally considered the finest yard there (and in some opinions, anywhere). This is the yard where they build the Mason, Taswells, Nordhavns, etc... which I think are some of the finest boats in the world (production).

I know the broker too and discussed this boat with him for another interested buyer. Of course Dave, you won't like the broker. He was the VP of Morgan (where my boat was built) and LOVES the C400. But Joe is a straight shooter and has a good rep around here.

Is this the boat I would buy for your purpose? Nope. But I guess you already know that. No matter - it's not what I like that counts, it is what you and the Mrs. Chef like.

Brian

PS WingnWing: Why the cover? You try to stop bird poopings? Can't be for any other reason I can envision (hehehehe.... 81 here today).


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

You know one thing I am seeing is lots of Robert Perry designed boats. I think his style of designs seem to fit most of your desires. I don't think he has ever designed a bad boat.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Cruisingdad said:


> http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=64851&url=
> 
> THe Tatoosh. It seems to be a faster boat than the typical long distance cruiser. She at least will get out of her way somewhat. I think it has everything you want... except maybe the heater. We dont do a lot of that down here.
> 
> ...


Brian,

Interesting boat. I love Perry designed boats and used to own one and Islander 28. One of the reasons I like the Masons is where the are made ( the shipyard). This one looks in OK condition. Does it have a detachable forestay or room for one? Can you PM the brokers name and number. I wont hold it against him he knows you


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> OK its the bottom of the ninth. Kids are grown...end of the careers is in site. You are approaching 60. You are looking for your very last sailboat. You have $250,000 to spend for the total ( outfitting included).
> 
> The cruising will be just you and your wife and the furthest you may go is 4-5 months at a time and to the Galapagos Islands from Annapolis Maryland. So north to Canada and South to Panama is the range. returning home to the Chesapeake most springs.
> 
> ...


Bermuda 40


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Chef, I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 5,000nm on a Nordic 44. I've been told that they are the "Sabre" of the west coast and each boat contains a large amount of customization in the interior. I have mixed opinions on the usefulness of a skeg hung rudder. The skeg is mounted in the same fashion as a fin keel (un-encapsulated). The bolt pattern is only about two inches between lateral bolts which is insufficient strength to hold the assembly stiff while beam reaching in quartering seas or running in a major cross-wave. We had rudder issues on the Pac Cup race. Feel free to ask any detailed questions you like as I have lots of experience on the boat.

Surfing on the way to Hawaii (3/4 oz runner kite is flying)









The Nordic 44 is good enough to win second place to Hawaii!









Unfortunately, everything on the Nordic is considerably bigger.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

miatapaul said:


> You know one thing I am seeing is lots of Robert Perry designed boats. I think his style of designs seem to fit most of your desires. I don't think he has ever designed a bad boat.


That is because, for what Dave set as criteria, he is/was the prominent NA.

Brian


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

chef2sail said:


> You are right, I think I mentioned that I wouldnt be able to get everything...boats are often tradeoffs.
> 
> No motorboat for me We like to sail and do so in many different conditions
> 
> ...


Ok, based on what you say I would say that regarding price, a recent boat, comfortable, modern hull, fast, with a very good stability a good quality interior and a classic look, I can see you voyaging and living on one of these:

1- Grand Soleil 45
2 - Dufour 44

Draft will be the biggest problem. Both boats had versions with low draft but they are very hard to find because few were sold with that specification.

The prices are just indicative. At this moment in Europe you can get a boat by considerably less than the asking price.

Maybe you can find one in the US but I guess you would make a much better deal in Europe. Well, that's an opportunity for you to take your wife sailing in the Med.

The Grand Soleil 45




























http://www.westcoastmarine.co.in/sale/grand-soleil/grand-soleil-45/

The Dufour 44 (it is not from the less expensive line - Grand large)



















http://www.sdyachts.com/dufour425spec.htm

CANTIERE DEL PARDO GRAND SOLEIL 45 Grands voiliers: +16 m année

DUFOUR DUFOUR 44 - Voilier d'occasion - Evasion Nautisme

Regards

Paulo


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

PCP said:


> Ok, based on what you say I would say that regarding price, a recent boat, comfortable, modern hull, fast, with a very good stability a good quality interior and a classic look, I can see you voyaging and living on one of these:
> 
> 1- Grand Soleil 45
> 2 - Dufour 44
> ...


Thanks Paulo. I like the Gran Soleis. They look like they have a powerful sailplan. I am reesearching them.

Dave


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## Boathabit (Jan 17, 2013)

You might take a look at the Niagara 42. Ticks most of the boxes on your list. Very well built, faster than you'd suspect, roomy, undeniably pretty, and a great motion underway. Buy a great one for 140k, a few upgrades, and cruise for 2 years on the balance of your 250k budget.
yachtworld.com/boats/1986/Niagara-42-Sloop-2484204/Picton/Canada
Or buy a new one from Bruckman Yachts for 600k


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

PSC 44, Passport 39-47, Saga 43?


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## genieskip (Jan 1, 2008)

I haven't read the whole thread to see if it has been mentioned, but I would like to suggest a J40 or J42. It has many of the features you want except it has 2 heads (I use the aft head as FWG and harness locker when underway) and laminate below, which I personally much prefer to the standard teak cave, but that's personal choice. The Js are fast and very seaworthy and have a great galley. Take a look at one.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

Hello,

When I bought my last boat (a C400 which I sold last december) I looked very carefully at both Passport 40 ( a good friend of mine owns one) and the Tatoosh/Nassau 42.

The Passport is much more pleasing to my eye with a more pronounced sheer and a better looking transom than the Tatoosh.

Some of my impressions / opinions:

Passport:
+Very nice looking boat
+ High quality 
+ Interior joinery is first class. 
+ fantastic galley
+ storage galore

- Very (and I mean very) small cockpit. Like a (small) 30 footer. seats are not long enogh to lie down.
- The pullman berth version has a small berth. you do not want to be a large person...
- the quarter beth is tiny, 2 people has to virtually lie on their sides to fit (or on top of each other ;-) to fit
- The aft head placement under a seat in the quarter berth. Who wants to sleep next to a toilet?
- Often came with weird diesel, such a Nanni...
- I suspect (have heard) that the boat is quite wet, I guess a drawback of the relatively low freeboard.
- I have heard that they are under canvassed (except for SF Bay conditions...)

If I was looking at a Passport again, I would look for a 47' or 49' (same boat, different transom?) which are similar in layout and looks to the 40' but with the interior volume approaching that of a more modern 40' boat.

Tatoosh:
+ Excellent galley
+ even more storage than the passport
+ aft head and shower is ginormous
+ Good engine access.
+ Superbly beautiful interior fit out.
- very tight cockpit behind the wheel. The helmsman settee is very close to the wheel. (or vice versa)
- V-Berth bed is very high off the cabin floor = reduced headroom, harder to get into, slightly claustrophobic feeling
- curved settes. 
- Aft pullman berth is in hottest, least ventilated part of boat. This type of arrangement seemed to have a pretty short life (Nordic 44 and Mason 44 has similar arrangement).
- Aluminum toe rail just does not look right on this boat...

In the end we had to be honest to ourselves and admit that as much as we love the look of exterior teak, we do not like to maintain it. As much storage as the above boats have, the storage in a C400 ora Bene 473 is plenty for a 2 person crew. We elected to get a newer boat for the same money and it suited the cruising we planned to do, and did, US east coast and Bahamas, perfectly.

If we were to cross oceans, we would have bought a HR, Amel or similar. If I were to do US east cost and Bahamas, carribean again - Catamaran is the way to go. Lagoon 400 owners version, or if performance is an issue an Aussie built cat called Fusion (unfortunately neither can be had for OP's budget of 200K...). A nice Lagoon 380 can be found for $250K.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

chef2sail said:


> Thanks Paulo. I like the Gran Soleis. They look like they have a powerful sailplan. I am reesearching them.
> 
> Dave


some help

http://grandsoleil.net/public/mediacoverage/European Boat Builder.pdf


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## shanedennis (Feb 10, 2012)

Have you looked at a Pacific Seacraft 40/44?

They seem to meet most of your requirements - mast height less 63 feeet, than minimal wood trim topside, are very nicely finished below, skeg hung rudder, lead keel, propane locker for two tanks etc. Draft is 6.1 and 6.3 feet respectively, a little over your spec.

It is also a rock solid and pretty boat. Rock solid and pretty boats go a long way towards getting and keeping the Admiral on board.

They seem to do better offshore than their round the buoys PHRF seems to indicate. SV Valis, Pacific Seacraft 44 out of San Fransico (VALIS) has a good record in the Pacific Cup.

Disclaimer: I have not been on a Pacific Seacraft 40/44 but I can attest to the thoughtfullness of the design and the quality of the build of a Pacific Seacraft 34.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Damn you just missed one of my favorites. Mascot was perhaps the best deal on the market. She had been EXTENSIVELY re-fit with NO EXPENSE spared and she was in Annapolis.. Spent some time aboard her and she was SWEET...

*Norseman 400 Mascot*


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

Maine Sail said:


> Damn you just missed one of my favorites. Mascot was perhaps the best deal on the market. She had been EXTENSIVELY re-fit with NO EXPENSE spared and she was in Annapolis.. Spent some time aboard her and she was SWEET...
> 
> *Norseman 400 Mascot*


Yes, mascot is a sweet boat. If I remember right, initial listing price was something like 379k. Likely sold for a quite a bit less than that.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

jorgenl said:


> Yes, mascot is a sweet boat. If I remember right, initial listing price was something like 379k. Likely sold for a quite a bit less than that.


I heard through the grape vine she went for around 200k.. I know Chris had put waaaaaayy more than that into her, on top of the purchase price. She was impeccable and a steal.....


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Maine Sail said:


> I heard through the grape vine she went for around 200k.. I know Chris had put waaaaaayy more than that into her, on top of the purchase price. She was impeccable and a steal.....


She's a beauty. Never saw her even advertised.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Cruisingdad said:


> PS WingnWing: Why the cover? You try to stop bird poopings? Can't be for any other reason I can envision (hehehehe.... 81 here today).


Brian - its so all my liveaboard clutter on the deck won't offend the neighbors! :laugher

Besides, had to keep the snow off the BBQ grill.


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## bjung (Apr 8, 2009)

Maine Sail said:


> I heard through the grape vine she went for around 200k.. I know Chris had put waaaaaayy more than that into her, on top of the purchase price. She was impeccable and a steal.....


Yes, this boat was a good deal, but I seem to remember the draft was almost 7 feet?!
I also like the Grand Soleil, but draft is an issue for Dave's cruising grounds.
PSC's are worth looking into, solid cruisers, but may not fit the performance requirements.
Maybe this, sorry no skeg 2004 Wauquiez 40 Centurion Loaded World Crsr Sail Boat For Sale - 
I think she will fit the performance requirement.
If you buy in Europe your choices will be significantly more. Maybe an Allures 40?


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