# can sailing guarantee my safety?



## package81 (May 4, 2011)

I am dabbling with the idea of sailing someday. It is one of my dreams to sail accross an ocean. I realize that no hobby comes with a safety guarantee. But I'm just wondering if, with all the right equipment, technology and skill (and time), it is possible to sail accross an ocean, without getting caught in a storm. Basically, can sailing accross an ocean ever be as safe as flying accross one? 

It is one of my greatest fears in life to get caught in a major storm helpless at sea. With all of the best equipment, technology and skill, are the odds still good that I will get caught in a major storm and die?

I have a friend that says "there is no way to avoid all major storms...and at some point you are pretty much guarenteed to have to face a storm that will possibly capsize your boat"

Once again, I realize that all hobbies come with safety hazards. But is it possible to almost gaurantee that I will never be killed or capsized by a terrible storm?


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## Iflyka200s (Oct 3, 2007)

Can't answer you except with an analogy to my job, Pilot.

You have flights where you face weather challenges you have flights where you don't. A healthy respect for the weather keeps you alive, not fear of it. You learn by doing, don't take off (or set sail) praying for a clear route, take-off knowing that you are ready to handle what may come at you. Plan for the best weather window and go but always be ready for the worst, notice I said ready, not scared when you are scared you make mistakes, when you are ready you make decisions.

Hope this helps!

Blue skies and (light) tailwinds!


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Welcome to SN......First of all, you need a new set of friends. LOL

Why don't you take some sailing lesson and learn it well, and then decide for yourself. No one can guarantee your safety. But i would rather to sail across the ocean than to ride a motorcycle across the United States. Sailing is safer than riding a bike.

You can die in the ocean without hitting a storm. Hitting a storms or multiple storms does not mean that you will die. Preparation, experience and readiness are the key. 

I am sure others will add more.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Hey pack. Welcome to SN dude.

Read "Handling Storms at Sea" - by Hal Roth. He does a great job of putting everything in perspective.

But if you're looking for a "guarantee" - your bar might be a little high.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

People would not do it if it was not challenging and airplanes fall out of the sky pretty regular


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

tommays said:


> People would not do it if it was not challenging and airplanes fall out of the sky pretty regular


But just for perspective - driving a car on a busy highway at rush hour is pretty risky too. And no one thinks that's unusual.

This powerpoint from US Naval Academy (look at page 6) - puts driving at 30 deaths/100k participants, riding a bike at 0.09, sailing at 0.03 (all normalized for average hours of participation per person).


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Zed - that's a great report...and fits with this thread we were batting around a while back...

*How "afraid" should we be of sailing?*


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## JKCatalina310 (Nov 18, 2010)

package81 said:


> It is one of my greatest fears in life to get caught in a major storm helpless at sea. With all of the best equipment, technology and skill, are the odds still good that I will get caught in a major storm and die?
> 
> I have a friend that says "there is no way to avoid all major storms...and at some point you are pretty much guarenteed to have to face a storm that will possibly capsize your boat"
> 
> Once again, I realize that all hobbies come with safety hazards. But is it possible to almost gaurantee that I will never be killed or capsized by a terrible storm?


Get some new friends.

Seriously, the part of your post that bothered me is the word "helpless". A well prepared sailor is not helpless. There are many techniques that can be used to help you weather a gale and continue in your passage.

Of course there are no guarantees. Just you and your abilities against what ever Mother Nature throws at you. But it is one of the few areas where you can truly test yourself. As Bob Bitchen says "Attitude: the difference between an ordeal and an adventure."


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

The only guarantee life offers us is death.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

package, fifty years ago talking about the pacific he might have been right. Today? The key word is SKILL. That's the only variable left in the equations.

The Atlantic is covered much better than the Pacific, and IIRC there are a couple of key weather satellites out of order right now over the Pacific, but the bottom line is that with live satellite imagery and modern meteorology, there's dman good weathercasting for most of the planet.

This doesn't guarantee your safety, but it does ensure that IF YOU WORK ON THE SKILLS, you will be able to appraise the forecasts and cross safely when there is a reliable weather window. That doesn't mean blindly listening to the forecasts--because you also have to learn when to believe them, and when the confidence level from the forecasters really is not solid.

I've had "solid" forecasts for balmy 5 knot weather turn overnight into 40 knots and 8' waves when simple coastal forecasts weren't so simple. When you hear words like "occluded front" and "stalled"...you throw out the forecast. Other times you'll hear that the jet streams have been unmoving, the wind and weather are clear and consistent for a thousand miles upwind of you, and you can expect them to stay the same for a while.

Assuming of course, "a while" is long enough for you to cross. If something breaks and your week long trip turns into two weeks...there goes the forecast.

Meteorology can get awfully complicated, but with all the online resources at least you can start studying up on it for free!


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## genieskip (Jan 1, 2008)

package81 said:


> Once again, I realize that all hobbies come with safety hazards. But is it possible to almost gaurantee that I will never be killed or capsized by a terrible storm?


In one word - No.

I have raced across the Atlantic three times and each time we hit rough weather patches, though nothing like a full blown hurricane. How safe are you crossing the street? It is impossible to give guarantees, as everyone has stated before me. If you build up a high skill level, have a sound boat and a good crew and pick your route and time of year carefully, it can be a fantastic experience that you will treasure for the rest of your life.

Start small and build up. Learn to sail and as you push your personal envelope you will have a much better idea of how far you want to go. If you are starting from scratch you are still years away from being ready to undertake that kind of a voyage. No one can guarantee your safety for day at the beach (especially if you are driving there!) let alone on an ocean crossing. Frankly I feel a good deal safer in the ocean on a good, well crewed boat than on the Long Island Expressway.


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## johnnyandjebus (Sep 15, 2009)

Pack

The answer to your question is no, not that I have ever sailed across an ocean.

With that said perhaps the first step for you is to taking some sailing lessons, and join a club. If you do, at some point you will find yourself in heavy weather. Assuming you have a good captain and can keep an open mind about it you will find that it is not that big a deal. The boat does most of the work after-all.

My home town hosts CORK, a yearly sailing regatta that attracts people from all over, small dinghy's to 40 foot boats. What is always a pleasure to watch is the kids sailing their lasers and optimists(very small boats) in a heavy blow. They happily bounce along having the time of their lives.

Welcome to SN

John


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Maybe the question one should ask themselves is: 
If I died while sailing, would it have been worth it. If the question is "NO", then I would pick another hobby that is either safer or "IS" worth it.

Another thing to think about even some of the most experienced sailors in the world with the best equipment and training have died sailing. The other thing when things start to go wrong, you cannot pull over, stop and get help like in a car. If you are on an ocean passage, you could be hundreds of miles from help. And even if help were to arrive, that could only be the begining of a long rescue.

The key is to manage the risk through equipment, training, experience, and weather and sea knowledge. But in the end, bad things can still happen, and when they do, it is a much more difficult situation than if you were on dry land.

Go to You Tube and seach "Hell on High Water the Sydney Hobart 1998 race" this is a 5 part series that is great live footage of recuing sailors in 80 knot winds and 60 plus foot waves. there were many deaths during this race. YouTube - Critical Situation Hell on High Water Part 1 This is part 1, do a search for parts 2-5.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Actually you should have asked that question to Jessica Watson. Her boat was only knocked down about seven times when she transited the world.
1. She picked a sea worthy boat for her transit.
2. She trusted her boat to come back up after being knocked down.
3. And this was at an ripe old age of sixteen years old.
4. she didn't die... Or she could be an immortal.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

To some extent it is possible to largely avoid storms depending on where you go. However on some routes eg Fiji to NZ which takes say 9 days one storm is most likely. It is also likely but not certain that at some point on passage you will go through a gale. More so if you take chances in your planning. You are unlikely with normal caution to encounter a hurricane.
With experience and the knowledge and equipment to handle bad weather you will be uncomfortable, and scared but will most likely survive. Some anxiety is normal but with experience you build up your tolerance level.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

*



can sailing guarantee my sefety.

Click to expand...

*NOPE

Sailing is risky, but you can learn how to take those risks very very carefully. But life can always sneak up on you and bite.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

chris_gee said:


> To some extent it is possible to largely avoid storms depending on where you go. However on some routes eg Fiji to NZ which takes say 9 days one storm is most likely. It is also likely but not certain that at some point on passage you will go through a gale. More so if you take chances in your planning. You are unlikely with normal caution to encounter a hurricane.
> With experience and the knowledge and equipment to handle bad weather you will be uncomfortable, and scared but will most likely survive. Some anxiety is normal but with experience you build up your tolerance level.


And also remember the crew will usally give up well before the boat. So, no matter what, stay on the boat until she actually sinks. As they say, always step up to your life raft, not down. The thing is also, be prepared for the storm, even if it is very unlikely, otherwise if a storm does come, you are more likely to "freak out".

If what you are describing is what you really want to do, you will make it happen,
Good Luck


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## pistonbully (Apr 30, 2011)

hellosailor said:


> IF YOU WORK ON THE SKILLS, you will be able to appraise the forecasts and cross safely when there is a reliable weather window. That doesn't mean blindly listening to the forecasts--because you also have to learn when to believe them, and when the confidence level from the forecasters really is not solid.


I think that really says it all right there!


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

I guess the first thing one should do when defining the chances of hitting a storm is defining the storm. A gale is not a storm. A squall is not a storm. When you get to Force 10 or more you're talking storm. 35 knots is a gale. Expect to get caught in many of those. But there are many people (I have friends that did three circumnavigations over ten years) that never get caught in storms.

Is ocean voyaging safer that flying? Hell yes. Far more people have died from planes falling out of the sky than yachts sinking. You just get to do it while you're not alone because there are a lot more people flying than voyaging. But when last did you watch a TV program called Yacht Sinking Investigations?  

If you want a safe past-time - take up knitting. Especially if 35 knots scares you.


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## Sublime (Sep 11, 2010)

I think the first dangerous thing people do is have a set schedule. That makes you take risks you wouldn't otherwise take. 
People who don't have a set schedule don't mind waiting out a storm or a gale in the safety of a harbor somewhere, or don't rush a repair.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Omatako said:


> If you want a safe past-time - take up knitting. Especially if 35 knots scares you.


Obviously, Mr. Omatako, you've never knitted in F9+ conditions. Freakin' scary. Let me assure you.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I have a nice, plastic bubble I'm willing to sell you. Only one owner, lightly lived in by a nice, little boy.


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## Sublime (Sep 11, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Obviously, Mr. Omatako, you've never knitted in F9+ conditions. Freakin' scary. Let me assure you.


I have and thankfully I'm alive to tell my story. In a few decades, I'll have my blog up and running whilst writing a book.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

As many have said, there aren't any guarantees. But here is something somebody said to me many years ago, which helped a total newbie:

Storms at sea are scary to consider. But imagine a bottle, with the top firmly on, in a storm. Is it going to sink? Would a bottle be at significant risk of sinking, or would it just get tossed around a bit?

In a bad storm, a well-designed boat all closed up is like that bottle. It is *very* tough to sink (in fact, many sailors simply wait out bad storms below - probably a bit scared and shaken up, but safe and dry). Now she may take a beating she may not come out of it so pretty - but like the bottle, there is no reason why she should sink.

Oh, yeah - and with modern communications and forecasting (assuming you aren't on a schedule) most people avoid storms entirely 

Go sail. You'll be risking more on driving to and from the boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I think a boat that can drain its cockpit well, can close up its companionway and keep from flooding below if said cockpit is pooped, has an emergency rudder, a good storm sail and a solid attachment point for a series drogue, should come as close to guaranteeing your safety as anything you might do on land, including driving your car.

You do have to stay attached to the boat and have the patience to wait it all out, but that's up to you.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*A ship in the harbor is safe...*

If risk is terrifying, if you can't enjoy battle, stick to coastal sailing in mild weather and reading about sailing off-shore. The books are more fun than the reality. Reality, though, brings rewards.

I'm not trying to be cute, but I can't see how the OP is going to enjoy sailing with deep worry. Yes, we all take safety seriously, but if we even ask for garentees, we are better off on the couch. This sounds like a person who is going to want rescue or to just get off when trouble starts. I don't want that person around and I would be angered at having to go get them.

So, the best answer would be to say "nope, no promises, you could die." People do.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

YouTube - Perfect Storm Rescues: Infant Saved at Sea

Check out above video. Does anyone know why the boat was abandoned? It was only 50 knots and what 20 foot seas. Seems a lot safer on the boat if they can get some sail down. Anyone know what happened to the boat.

In any case, a captain should be able to handle this situation without coast guard.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Worsening conditions, in the path of a hurricane, a mother and newborn, and a 13 year old maybe.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

chris_gee said:


> Worsening conditions, in the path of a hurricane, a mother and newborn, and a 13 year old maybe.


Maybe, but listen to the audio from Coast Guard, even they were not sure if the baby would live through the rescue. For the mother to jump into the ocean (off a floating boat no less) with a baby in here arms- I cannot imagine. Just holding the baby while in the water under those sea state conditions could drown the baby, or hypothermia (especially on a baby with a small mass and large surface area) could kill it. Maybe the sail was jammed and could not be lowered or removed. I would think a boat this size could deal with a hurricane (close up, get below, hold on, and run under bare poles). I would love to know more of the story, I tried to find more on the internet but no luck.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

If you are going to close up and wait it out below, bare poles is not necessarily going to guarantee your safety. You want either a series drogue or a sea anchor to hold you perpendicular to the waves.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> If you are going to close up and wait it out below, bare poles is not necessarily going to guarantee your safety. You want either a series drogue or a sea anchor to hold you perpendicular to the waves.


I have heard some sailors (Jon Sanders for example in a double non-stop circumnavigation) used bare poles with no sea anchor or drogue and did what is called "lay a hull" when the seas hit you beam on. Apparently the boat rides very well unless hit by a breaking wave where you might get rolled- but you will come up, which did happen to Jon Sanders. I spoke to a past owner of my current boat. The owner told me he was sailing in 80 knot winds with 60 foot seas and used bare poles with a wind vane to steer (this was in the Tasman Sea). I am not sure if a drogue was used, he did not mention it. My boat currently has a parachute anchor and a drogue. I do not think I would ever use a parachute anchor in high seas as from what I have read, It could cause the bow to submarine into a large wave or breaking wave. Maybe if I were getting blown into land it could be useful to slow progress until I fixed problem or got help. A drouge would be useful (Jon Sanders dragged warps for this) and could be used while sailing or running bare poles.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

The only perfectly safe sailing is via a computer game. On the other hand, while someone dying in a sailing accident is rare enough that it's likely to make the evening news, people are killed every day on the freeway with hardly a mention.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> I have heard some sailors (Jon Sanders for example in a double non-stop circumnavigation) used bare poles with no sea anchor or drogue and did what is called "lay a hull" when the seas hit you beam on. Apparently the boat rides very well unless hit by a breaking wave where you might get rolled- but you will come up, which did happen to Jon Sanders.


Being rolled does not guarantee your safety. You may not come around with your mast intact, not to mention the people down below.



> I do not think I would ever use a parachute anchor in high seas


Makes sense to me, but I wasn't trying to start the drogue v. sea anchor discussion within this context.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

SlowButSteady said:


> The only perfectly safe sailing is via a computer game. On the other hand, while someone dying in a sailing accident is rare enough that it's likely to make the evening news, people are killed every day on the freeway with hardly a mention.


Here in Hawaii, there are probably 3 people killed every year in offshore (not near shore boating accidents). Most actually receive less press than car accidents that probably kill about 30 per year.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Being rolled does not guarantee your safety. You may not come around with your mast intact, not to mention the people down below.


That is why it is important to strap down loose objects and be able to strap into a bunk. Any ocean going boat should be able to do this. With a strong rig in good condition, you should be able to handle a roll over (with no sail set). If not, then the boat is not really set up for ocean passage making. If the boat cannot handle this, it should not go to sea where these conditions might present themselves. In the case where a rig is lost, one must have tools and knowledge to cut and dispose of rig to prevent holing of hull. Again, if one does not have these skills, the risk of problems goes up. If one cannot prepare for the worst possible situation that may present itself, then the boat is not seaworthy. If one attempts to take a boat that is not prepared for the worst possible scnario, then they are gabling.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Casey,

I don't disagree with your point about having an appropriate rig. However, more than one ocean ready boat has been dismasted.

Given the choice between running bare poles and having decent odds of rolling and dragging a drogue and not likely rolling, I don't get why one would choose to lay ahull.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Casey,
> 
> I don't disagree with your point about having an appropriate rig. However, more than one ocean ready boat has been dismasted.


Agree, so one needs to be prepared to cut it away because a demasting can occur in all conditions- carring sail, no sail, drogue, parachute anchor, motoring.

I think if I were on the "Sea Flower Two" I would have taken my chances on the boat. Maybe there was somthing else going on that made the boat unseaworthy and required rescue- I tried to find more information but unable. I would not be surprised if the boat was found floating several days later in good condition (although leaving the sail up could have caused it to sink, especially if the main hatch was not secured when abandoned). I think the Coast Guard rescue of the baby had about a 20% chance of success. They did an amazing rescue and they should be congradulated- especially that rescue swimmer.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Well, package81 has certainly gotten enough answers to keep him busy for awhile. I hope he comes back and responds sometime. 

For my part, I just have to say that there is no way that sailing or any other activity in the world is going to be completely safe. If one is worried about dying they aren't living. 
Having had a brother lost at sea I know first hand that it's a perilous activity. By the same token, I've lost other loved ones on motorcycles, to drugs, to illness and disease and to simple old age. 
Living is dangerous. But it's better than the alternative.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

knothead said:


> Well, package81 has certainly gotten enough answers to keep him busy for awhile. I hope he comes back and responds sometime.
> 
> For my part, I just have to say that there is no way that sailing or any other activity in the world is going to be completely safe. If one is worried about dying they aren't living.
> Having had a brother lost at sea I know first hand that it's a perilous activity. .


I hope we did not scare him away. I have also lost two friends to sailing (one on Pride of Baltimore I- Pride of Baltimore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) and do not think anyone should consider it a 100% safe sport (although nothing is 100% safe).

Actually it is a very difficult sport if you are doing ocean passages. You need to be an athalete, mechanic, weatherman, sail tactichian, cook, medic, seamstress, electrician, plumber and probably a few other things I missed, but anyone can learn these things if they are willing- I know I still am.


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## aquestforfun (Mar 2, 2011)

Sailing accidents or injuries can happen at any time regardless of weather conditions. I have sailed in most weather conditions without any mishaps. Unfortunately 6 weeks ago after a beautiful day of sailing and with the boat docked I took a took a step where there was no deck and fell from it into the cockpit backwards while flaking the sail and fractured two vertebrae. I had almost convinced my wife to go cruising for an extended period of time. It now looks like I will stay a day sailor.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Talk about thread drift! Let's look back at the OP's message:


package81 said:


> I am dabbling with the idea of sailing someday. It is one of my dreams to sail accross an ocean...


It's clear that this guy is a long way off from an ocean passage. It will be many years before he is ready to sail across the ocean, and he may never work up to that point. But that's OK - sailing is about the journey, not the destination. If it were about the latter, there are other faster/cheaper/easier ways to get there.

I suggest that the OP get started with a sailing school, or find a friend who owns a boat, or if he wants to dive in head first buy a daysailor and start learning and enjoying in protected waters. Only then can he answer the other questions that he has asked. If he never gets to cross an ocean, he'll still have a lot of fun.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> I hope we did not scare him away. I have also lost two friends to sailing (one on Pride of Baltimore I- Pride of Baltimore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) and do not think anyone should consider it a 100% safe sport (although nothing is 100% safe).
> 
> Actually it is a very difficult sport if you are doing ocean passages. You need to be an athalete, mechanic, weatherman, sail tactichian, cook, medic, seamstress, electrician, plumber and probably a few other things I missed, but anyone can learn these things if they are willing- I know I still am.


Was that the incident that led to the "White Squall" film? That was nuts.

I'm sorry about your friend, case.


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## gar37bic (Sep 24, 2007)

*Sailing is pretty safe*

I read a government analysis some time ago. IIRC, according to the study sailing is about as dangerous as golf. It's one of the safest sports. The study didn't distinguish different kinds of sailing, but I'm sure that the more athletic and competitive sides account for the majority of the statistics.

Of course, statistics mean one thing when you read them, and another thing entirely when you're the topic!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

> Can sailing guarantee my safety?


I think you just need to get to the bottom of this and call Sailing and ask...

867-5309.


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## pistonbully (Apr 30, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> I think you just need to get to the bottom of this and call Sailing and ask...
> 
> 867-5309.


Lol,, I just got that...


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Was that the incident that led to the "White Squall" film? That was nuts.
> 
> I'm sorry about your friend, case.


No. The film was based on the sinking of another boat in the early 1960s.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

gar37bic said:


> I read a government analysis some time ago. IIRC, according to the study sailing is about as dangerous as golf. It's one of the safest sports. The study didn't distinguish different kinds of sailing, but I'm sure that the more athletic and competitive sides account for the majority of the statistics.
> 
> Of course, statistics mean one thing when you read them, and another thing entirely when you're the topic!


Well, those golf clubs can do some damage. Just ask Tiger Woods and/or the former Mrs. Woods.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

casey1999 said:


> I hope we did not scare him away. I have also lost two friends to sailing (one on Pride of Baltimore I- Pride of Baltimore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) and do not think anyone should consider it a 100% safe sport (although nothing is 100% safe).
> 
> Actually it is a very difficult sport if you are doing ocean passages. You need to be an athalete, mechanic, weatherman, sail tactichian, cook, medic, seamstress, electrician, plumber and probably a few other things I missed, but anyone can learn these things if they are willing- I know I still am.


That's interesting. I just had dinner in Baltimore on Sunday night, and walked over to the Pride of Baltimore memorial at the Inner Harbor. The mast is mounted there.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

BubbleheadMd said:


> That's interesting. I just had dinner in Baltimore on Sunday night, and walked over to the Pride of Baltimore memorial at the Inner Harbor. The mast is mounted there.


It doesn't sound like its an original.

Pride of Baltimore II



> A permanent memorial to the original Pride of Baltimore has been erected in the Inner Harbor on Rash Field. The memorial consists of the characteristic raked mast of a Baltimore Clipper along with the names of those lost in the tragedy carved into pink granite.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Hahaha..... This happens every time. OP has left the house.


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## RonRelyea (Nov 18, 2009)

*Jenny?*



smackdaddy said:


> I think you just need to get to the bottom of this and call Sailing and ask...
> 
> 867-5309.


Smack ... tried the number and got somebody named Jenny ???? I think the right number is 724-5464 or wait ... maybe it's Beechwood 4- 5789


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

rockDAWG said:


> Hahaha..... This happens every time. OP has left the house.


You're right, the Lakers are gonna have a hard time coming back from 0-2. Dallas may just be too strong a team this year.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

RonRelyea said:


> Smack ... tried the number and got somebody named Jenny ???? I think the right number is 724-5464 or wait ... maybe it's Beechwood 4- 5789


That's her. Good time?

Maybe sailing moved. Try Pennsylvania 6-5000.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Was that the incident that led to the "White Squall" film? That was nuts.
> 
> I'm sorry about your friend, case.


As another poster writes, the movie "white squall" was about the sinking of Albatross. Here is more information about Pride I from Wikipedia:

"" Historical incidentsThe Pride of Baltimore, a modern 137-foot (42m) schooner, was reportedly struck by a white squall on May 14, 1986. The 121-ton vessel sank about 240 miles (390 km) north of Puerto Rico, casting the surviving crew members adrift for five days. The Toro, a Norwegian freighter, picked them up at 2:30 a.m. May 19, 1986. An eyewitness of the account described it as follows: 
"A tremendous whistling sound suddenly roared through the rigging and a wall of wind hit us in the back. The Pride heeled over in a matter of seconds. The 70-knot (130 km/h) wind pushed a 20-foot (6.1 m) high wall of water into the starboard side. She sank in minutes."[1]

A white squall was allegedly behind the sinking of the schooner Albatross on May 2, 1961. 
A white squall is also believed to have sunk the schooner Hunter Savidge on Lake Huron in 1899. 
[edit] In popular cultureStan Rogers wrote his 1984 song "White Squall" about the white squalls of the Great Lakes. 
Ridley Scott's film White Squall tells the story behind the 1961 sinking of the Albatross. ""

There was no wreckage found from Pride I. I think she sank in water over 5000 feet deep, so any memorial with a mast is not from Pride I.

Interesting thing about Pride I is that she was on tour of the Mediterainian prior to sinking. Due to high level terrorist activity towards americans at the time, a decision was made to bring her back to the US. The Pride was owned by city of Baltimore. It was on this trip back she sunk. So trying to always reduce risk does not always work.

The original Pride I was designed as an exact replica of a Balltimore Clipper ship. These were designed to run British blockades prior to Revolutionary war. They were fast but also difficult to sail- very low free board. Originally the Pride I was to stay in the Chesapeake, but later the ship performed many ocean passages. The coast guard required the replacement Pride II to be designed to coast guard standards- much high freeboard and not really a true Baltimore clipper.

""A permanent memorial to the original Pride of Baltimore has been erected in the Inner Harbor on Rash Field. The memorial consists of the characteristic raked mast of a Baltimore Clipper along with the names of those lost in the tragedy carved into pink granite. The memorial reminds those who visit it of the precariousness of life at sea, a lesson the citizens of this great port city once knew well but had long forgotten.""


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

To the OP i would , first go sailing, then see what questions you ask. You dont have to ever go near an ocean until you feel ready. I would actually say ocean crossing is easier and less nerve racking then coastal sailing.

To people you say lying ahull or even hove to is a way to see out survival storms, I say nonsense, very few boats can keep their occupants safe without active management and this is especially true of modern fin keelers. Im always suprised that often is husband and wife crews that seem convinced they can handle survival storms that way , it seems a mental crutch.

on a roll over, you will be dammed luckly to emerge with the rig attached, irrepective of the "preparation", virtually nothing built is so capable. Equally loosing a deck hatch etc can be terminal. Hence at all costs the boat must be managed to prevent knockdowns and rolls.

People who point to boats that have survived storms intact , with the crew lifted off even with deck striped of gear etc or make the " bottle in a storm" analogy simply havent experienced the inside of a boat in such conditions. Its almost impossible to prevent injury and the movement of the boat and especially a dismasted boat is so violent that sometimes it is impossible to inhabit. ( this is from a first hand account of a fastnet survivor to me)

Very few sailors meet survival storms , especially now with modern technolgies and the inbuilt caution that most normal recreational sailors have. WHen they do, its requires reseves of skill and experience and not really a check list approach.

Dave


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

goboatingnow said:


> People who point to boats that have survived storms intact , with the crew lifted off even with deck striped of gear etc or make the " bottle in a storm" analogy simply havent experienced the inside of a boat in such conditions. Its almost impossible to prevent injury and the movement of the boat and especially a dismasted boat is so violent that sometimes it is impossible to inhabit. ( this is from a first hand account of a fastnet survivor to me)
> Dave


This is a good point. I am NOT disagree with you.

If the boat survive without human intervention during the storm, then the occupant can survive there too providing he or she securing themselves properly inside the boat below deck. Perhaps wearing helmet and body protecting armor like those used by the motorcyclists.

BTW, I thought about bringing my Helmet on board when sailing solo. I wear helmet for snow boarding or motorcycling, it seems logical to wear one in sailing. But I have never seen or heard anyone doing it. I bumped my head head hard many times when below deck.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

rockDAWG said:


> BTW, I thought about bringing my Helmet on board when sailing solo. I wear helmet for snow boarding or motorcycling, it seems logical to wear one in sailing. But I have never seen or heard anyone doing it. I bumped my head head hard many times when below deck.


I saw one on a race boat - once.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

goboatingnow said:


> To the OP i would , first go sailing, then see what questions you ask. You dont have to ever go near an ocean until you feel ready. I would actually say ocean crossing is easier and less nerve racking then coastal sailing.
> 
> To people you say lying ahull or even hove to is a way to see out survival storms, I say nonsense, very few boats can keep their occupants safe without active management and this is especially true of modern fin keelers. Im always suprised that often is husband and wife crews that seem convinced they can handle survival storms that way , it seems a mental crutch.
> 
> ...


There are times when you probably would be more safe to close up the boat, run under bare poles, and strap you yourself down below. What if it is at night and you cannot see breaking waves to steer around? What if water temps are 33 deg F (or even 60 deg F) and a person cannot take the water and wind without going hypothermic and has reached point of exhaustion. What if the boat does roll, even a watch stander cannot prevent all roll overs. During a roll over would you be more safe inside or outside. I have read books and accounts by Jesse Martin, Jon Sanders, Jessica Watson, and David Dicks all doing single handed non stops circumnavigations in same boat as mine. They all used the tatic of closing the boat up and going down below and strapping in. They also all got rolled and survived as did their rig and this was in southern ocean. The previous owner of my boat used the same technique when hitting a storm in the pacific. I guess every boat is different but if I were faced with the same conditions, I would close her up and ride it out below.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

rockDAWG said:


> This is a good point. I am NOT disagree with you.
> 
> If the boat survive without human intervention during the storm, then the occupant can survive there too providing he or she securing themselves properly inside the boat below deck. Perhaps wearing helmet and body protecting armor like those used by the motorcyclists.
> 
> BTW, I thought about bringing my Helmet on board when sailing solo. I wear helmet for snow boarding or motorcycling, it seems logical to wear one in sailing. But I have never seen or heard anyone doing it. I bumped my head head hard many times when below deck.


I noticed Jessica Watson (16 year old single handed circumnavigator) used a helment (rock climbing) when going aloft at sea. Would be a good idea anytime you might get wacked by the boom.


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

> If the boat survive without human intervention during the storm, then the occupant can survive there too providing he or she securing themselves properly inside the boat below deck. Perhaps wearing helmet and body protecting armor like those used by the motorcyclists.


try this at home, don all the protective gear you like, build a good strong carbon fibre box. Get into it, accelerate it at a solid object , do not emerge alive, note that the box is intact. Unfortunately carbon life forms are not as strong as boxes.:hammer


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

goboatingnow said:


> try this at home, don all the protective gear you like, build a good strong carbon fibre box. Get into it, accelerate it at a solid object , do not emerge alive, note that the box is intact. Unfortunately carbon life forms are not as strong as boxes.:hammer


Good thing the ocean is not a solid!


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

goboatingnow said:


> try this at home, don all the protective gear you like, build a good strong carbon fibre box. Get into it, accelerate it at a solid object , do not emerge alive, note that the box is intact. Unfortunately carbon life forms are not as strong as boxes.:hammer


Well..... car seat belts have proven to save many lives. I would rather be strapped on a 5 point seat belt in a galley with everything secured around me than fighting the storm in the cockpit.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> I think you just need to get to the bottom of this and call Sailing and ask...
> 
> 867-5309.


Snigger.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

goboatingnow said:


> try this at home, don all the protective gear you like, build a good strong carbon fibre box. Get into it, accelerate it at a solid object , do not emerge alive, note that the box is intact. Unfortunately carbon life forms are not as strong as boxes.:hammer


And I "T" boned a chevy caprice car that pulled out in front of me wtih my Dodge Intrepid at 50 mph and walked away unharmed (I think the air bag saved me) and both cars were totaled. I guess I am stronger than a car.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

read somewhere that gave golf being more dangerous than sailing


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I am sure it is potentially dangerous, so the way to deal with the danger is to accept it and manage it.

If you are not drunk and wearing a life jacket your chance of dying while boating instantly drops by 95%.

That reminds me, man overboard drill next time we sail!


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## Chkm8 (May 6, 2009)

You forgot the US also guarantees Taxes even after Death


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

i think the op is out buying golf clubs


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## wescarroll (Jan 9, 2005)

Short answer has 2 letters, no.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The OP had one post, seven months ago and never came back. Set up?

They never learned to sail, but they say "It is one of my greatest fears in life to get caught in a major storm helpless at sea." 

I feel so dirty for having played along.


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## Dirtboy (Jul 13, 2009)

> But i would rather to sail across the ocean than to ride a motorcycle across the United States. Sailing is safer than riding a bike.


You are obviously speaking for yourself. Riding a motorcycle across the US is _not_ more dangerous than sailing across an ocean _if_ you are more skilled as a motorcyclist than a sailor. I assure you, my four motorcycle trips across the US were far easier and less perilous than any ocean crossing. Maybe it's because I'm a seasoned motorcyclist and have developed the confidence and skill required for the task.

When I discovered motorcycling I was scared, had frequent dreams of death on the bike (like 2/3 nights a week for the first 2 years of riding.) I just enjoyed motorcycling too much to give it up so I decided to take that energy from the dreams and start researching motorcycle safety. I read everything I could find about motorcycle safety practices from professionals like motorcycle policemen, couriers and racers. I read all the magazines (no interweb back then) and all the books I could find about motorcycling. Now, 35 years later, I can look back on thousands of fond memories of trips made, people met, roads enjoyed and an appreciation of our great country, coast to coast.

It's not a question of is it dangerous, of course it is, just like sailing. The danger decreases with knowledge and experience but it's always there.

DB


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## Chkm8 (May 6, 2009)

Hi DB, Many years of riding and I still don't trust Other traffic the Sea is much more predictable than a crowded street, know your baby and She will get there! Chkm8


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## Dirtboy (Jul 13, 2009)

> Hi DB, Many years of riding and I still don't trust Other traffic


Good, me neither. However traffic isn't the only hazard. Equipment failure during a motorcycle trip could mean a long walk. Equipment failure in the middle of the Atlantic ...............

If safety is your concern; stay in bed.

If statistics are your concern; never go to bed (more people die in bed than anywhere else.)

Whatareyagonnado?

Choose your dangers, arm yourself against them with education and attention, then go out and enjoy them.

DB


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