# Sticky  Bedding Deck Hardware With Butyl Tape



## Maine Sail

Over the years, especially in the last few weeks via PM's/emails, I have been asked how I bed deck hardware with butyl tape. I officially apologize for being so slow with completed photo examples. I have been meaning to do one but just have not had the time to complete it.

Late one night I was in the barn staring at a cleat, and a small scrap of clear Lexan, hmmmm...... A drill, counter sink, some butyl tape, my camera, and a few minutes later I had the pics I needed. Sorry that it took so long. It just needed to "click" the way I wanted to present it.

Here's how I bed with butyl.

Step 1 - Countersink the deck holes slightly and then clean everything with Acetone or a similar fast-evaporating solvent.

Read about it here too: *Sealing Deck Penetrations To Prevent Core Rot (LINK)*

Here's how I bed with butyl.

*Step 1 *- Countersink the deck holes slightly and then clean everything with Acetone or a similar fast-evaporating solvent.









If you look closely you will see two spider cracks radiating out from the drilled hole in the deck. If this hole had been beveled/countersunk this would likely not have happened. The big money builders learned this trick a long time ago.









So why on earth do I countersink or chamfer the deck side of the skins?

*#1* it does a lot to prevent gelcoat crazing. By feathering the edge of the gelcoat, through the use of a countersink bit, you are now a lot less likely to start a crack or craze mark in the gelcoat. Gelcoat is an unreinforced product and because of this it is prone to cracking. Sharp right-angle holes are a good place for these cracks to begin when you tighten the deck hardware and potentially flex the substrate. Beveling the edge of the hole or feathering it limits the ability of the crack to begin or start. This is why you often see holes drilled into plate glass that will have beveled or rounded edges too.

*#2* By creating a bevel or countersunk recess in the surface of the deck the marine sealant or butyl tape has a cavity to fill. Without a bevel, the hardware would compress the sealant to about 1/64th of an inch thick after the fasteners are tightened. Marine sealants do have some flexibility but not as much as you would guess. Follow me for a moment; Let's say you have a marine sealant that has a rating of 400% elongation before the break on a 1/64" thick joint. Simple math shows you that 400% of 1/64" is only 1/16" of total allowable joint movement before a joint failure or leak starts. In the case of a stanchion base 1/16" is not much allowable movement before failure.

*#3* By countersinking around the bolt holes you increase the maximum thickness of the sealant, at the bevel, to roughly a 3/32" depth at it's deepest point. Using the same math as above 3/32" X 400% gives you a total joint movement before failure of 3/8". If a mechanically fastened joint is moving 3/8" you have more problems than just a deck leak! So 1/16" allowable movement before failure at 400% without countersinking or 3/8" allowable movement at 400% before failure with countersinking. Even a small bevel will drastically increase max allowable movement before failure. Countersinking to a mere 1/16" depth will give you 1/4" total movement around the bolt before failure. You don't need a deep bevel to make a large difference between a failure and a seal.

*#4 *Countersinking is a no-brainer and has many many benefits. For instance, you can install the fitting and tighten it down NOW with no waiting and you can seal deck hardware alone.

I am going to inject some strong opinions here so please move on to the next photo if you don't want to hear it. I truly dislike and disagree with the Don Casey "two-step", "wait to tighten and form a gasket" method of bedding deck hardware. In my opinion, this method is probably one of the leading causes of deck core rot on the planet. Believe it or not, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I do however feel as if Don Casey wrote that technique to guarantee boatyards' future revenue.:doh:

Think about it. If the sealant cures, to form a "gasket", and you then move the bolt while tightening it down on the "second step".... you lose!

If you create a gasket too thick, and then can't get the mechanically fastened hardware tight enough against the deck because of compression resistance, the hardware will move, and also fail, so again... you lose!:cussing:

Sorry, I mean no disrespect to Mr. Casey, and he writes some excellent stuff, but this method is perhaps some of the worst advice I've ever read in any sailing/boating-related book. I have witnessed far too many cases of core rot due to poorly executed professional and DIY "two-step" bedding installations than I would have liked to.

So where did I learn this very simple countersinking method? Hinckley Yachts. Hinckley, Morris, and other top-quality builders have known this secret for years but many of the big production builders are still either too cheap or just don't know about it, which I find very hard to believe. Sure this extra step takes all of about 30 seconds per stanchion but apparently, it's too much "extra" work for most production builders.

OK, I'm done with my rant...for now...









Here's a prime example of where the 1/16" of movement might make a difference. This is a stanchion base on a major production sailboat that was only two years old. The factory marine sealant, made by 3M, has failed and caused a void when the stainless plate flexed and bent.

This is another reason I prefer cast stainless or aluminum stanchion bases as they do not flex as plate stainless does. On top of the stanchion base bending this manufacturer also does not countersink the deck holes, which in this case resulted in a wet deck core in under two years! Had the deck penetrations been properly countersunk there is a very high probability that this leak never would have occurred despite the cheesy quality of the stanchion base.









If by chance you're reading this and are still not convinced about countersinking, this is a lifting eye I installed in 2002 for an inflatable RIB dinghy. To do this install all I did was bevel the outer hull with a countersink bit, clean the surface with acetone and install the fitting with 3M 101 polysulfide, tightened it down ONCE and cleaned up the goop that squished out.

This fitting has been bone dry for eight years and resides below water, as in COMPLETELY SUBMERGED, when the dinghy is floating.









If you're still not convinced in the utility of countersinking the holes in your deck this photo was taken at year 8 of these pad eye's being installed and they still exhibited ZERO leaks and are still 100% bone dry.

While you probably could use butyl below the water line I don't, and use marine sealants instead such as Sikaflex 291 or a Polysulfide instead. 3M-101 is no longer marketed so you are left with Boat Life Life-Calk as the sole marine-grade polysulfide. I never liked Life-Calk as much as 3M 101 but it's still better than "Satan's Glue", AKA 3M 5200.

This is EASY! Countersink, clean, tighten & clean up... Done!









Okay, okay still not convinced? Here's how the pros do it. I took this photo at Morris Yachts of a brand new Morris during the deck hardware installation. These four holes are for the Dorade box on an M-36.

It is utterly reprehensible to me in this day and age that the production builders are so bent on saving $0.02 that they won't take the extra 30 seconds needed to properly install deck hardware. It took this Morris Yachts craftsman less than 30 seconds, including installing the countersink bit into the chuck, to bevel these holes. 30 seconds!!!!!!

How many Pearson, Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau, or other mass-produced boats do we see or survey annually with wet decks? LOTS!!! How many Morris, Hinckley, or other top builders using proper installation methods do we see with wet decks? Hardly any! Hundreds of thousands of boats with wet cores over 30 extra seconds per fitting, if that. Ridiculous really...:cussing:

Rant over...









Four properly countersunk deck penetrations on a brand-new Morris.









Okay, back on track. For this illustration I also slightly beveled the piece of polycarbonate:









*Step 2* - Wrap Bolt Heads - You'll want to rip off a small piece of butyl and knead it into a string then wrap the underside of the bolt or machine screw head.









*Step 3* - Press the through bolts into the deck hardware with some good pressure.

First, though make sure the hardware is clean, Acetone works well, but if Silicone was previously used you'll really want abrasives as Acetone won't touch dry silicone contamination.

Gelcoat silicone contamination is a whole other subject for a whole other day. Please avoid silicone except for certain tasks involving plastics that require its use.









Once the bolt heads are wrapped and pushed through, flip the hardware over.









*Step 4* - Strip some more butyl tape and make another round string. Wrap the string around the bolt threads or shoulder. Knead and work & twist the cones into the threads of the bolt and shape them like a cone.









*Step 5* - Apply butyl tape to the rest of the base. It is perfectly OK to stretch and pull on the butyl while laying it on in order to make it slightly thinner. For this project, I used 1/2" wide by 1/16" thick gray butyl tape.









*Step 6*- In colder climates, you may want to pre-heat the butyl to soften it some. After pre-heating with a heat gun on the warm setting line up the bolts with the holes and press the hardware firmly onto the deck. For illustrative purposes clear polycarbonate was used in place of a deck, another Compass Marine first, but don't worry one of the magazines will surely rip this idea off in no time. 

This photo allows you to see what actually happens when you bed with butyl.









*Step 7* - Install the backing plates, in this case, I just used fender washers, and begin to tighten. Please use suitable backing plates. These fender washers would not be the best choice in a stanchion or deck cleat as they are far too thin and a little on the small side diameter-wise for a cored deck.

It will be best to have two people or a good way to keep the bolt from moving. Ideally, you do not want the machine screw or bolt to spin, but if you absolutely have to, you can slightly soften the butyl with a q-tip and some mineral spirits and go for it.

Tighten the hardware a little bit at a time as the butyl will ooze out slowly because the consistency is quite thick. Tighten, let sit, tighten, let sit, etc. etc. When little to none squishes out & the bolt & nut become tight you can stop. If you have a wood deck core DO NOT crush it by over-tightening, better yet bore out some core and pot the hole with thickened epoxy.

Here, I have taken pictures of the underside when tight.









As I mentioned in the last photo please use properly sized backing plates. This is a prime example of DIY boat work gone bad. Ouch!! This stanchion base had NO sealant of any type installed, not polysulfide, not polyurethane not butyl, and not even the dreaded silicone.

As a result of this unbelievably poor installation, the core turned to mush. The thin fiberglass deck skins, combined with dinky little washers, could not withstand the forces applied on the 24" lever attached to the stanchion base, and ........ rip!:doh:









After tightening, the excess butyl will squeeze out around the edges. The easiest way to clean it up is to pull or peel it away first. Use some of the excess butyl to make a small ball that you can then make quick stab & pull motions at the remaining ooze around the fitting. This quick stab & pull with a butyl ball in hand motion will get about 85-90% of the butyl cleaned up.









*Step 8* - Peel away excess ooze and clean with Meguiars cleaner wax, or a rag slightly dampened with mineral spirits. Do not saturate the rag with mineral spirits as it can creep under the fitting, just damp.

I find a ball of already "peeled" butyl works well at pulling away excess using a stab and pull motion. Stab the ball into the joint and pull away. The butyl will stick to the ball first and usually peel away from the joint. Alternatively, you can use plastic razor blades or scrapers.

Contrary to popular myths about bedding all the butyl does not squeeze out from between the surfaces even after the fitting is fully tight. This is the magic of butyl, but it does take multiple small tightening events, ideally without letting the bolt spin, to get the vast majority of the butyl to squeeze out.









This is the view after tightening to full tight and then removing the nut and washer. You can see how well it actually seals, and that it does NOT all squish out, as rumored to for years if you tighten it to full tight. You can also see the o-ring seal of thicker butyl created by countersinking & the butyl cone. The butyl o-ring created by countersinking the deck side is evidenced and can be seen by the darker-colored ring of butyl around the bolt. 









This is the gray butyl tape I use. It is 1/16" thick by 1/2" wide. It makes an excellent bedding compound.

Many builders used to use butyl tape, CS Yachts, and many others did, but they all stopped because butyl in a production environment is significantly more labor intensive despite being a better mouse trap.

*The benefits of butyl tape are numerous:

#1* It never hardens and remains at the same thick consistency for well over 30 years.

*#2* Because it never hardens it always remains flexible.

*#3 *It is multiple times more flexible than cured polyurethane.

*#4* It sticks extremely well to clean gelcoat, plastic, aluminum, bronze, or stainless.

*#5* It's NOT glue, and for through-bolted deck hardware, you do NOT need glue. This thinking I know is contrary to the brainwashing we have received from the polyurethane marketers like 3M, but it's true.

*#6* You can easily remove hardware bedded with butyl tape in the future without destroying your decks.

*#7* When you open a $16.00 - $20.00 tube of Satan's Glue or similar and don't use it all, it quickly goes bad and gets hard. Butyl tape can still be used ten+ years later. I bought two cases back in 1997 or 1998 and was until using those rolls this past spring with no problems whatsoever. That is a HUGE cost saving.









As I mentioned butyl tape is VERY, VERY flexible. This photo represents well over 1000% elongation of the original squished thickness and the butyl is still stretching and much of it has not yet failed.

You will also notice that it is still perfectly adhered to the deck and the cleat and never let go of either despite its very low 10-20 PSI bond strength. When compared to Satan's Glue/3M 5200 and its gelcoat destroying 700+/- PSI adhesion you can see why this ridiculous level of adhesion is 100% unnecessary.

Butyl tape also cleans up easily. Remove the fitting and clean the surface with mineral spirits and a rag. That's it!

Because butyl can be softened with mineral spirits the one place I won't use it is on fuel fills or fuel vents. If you normally clean your decks with potent solvents, doubtful, then just be careful around the butyl-bedded hardware.









Here is a look at the below deck view of that cleat pictured above.

This cleat had been bedded 29 years prior to this photo with butyl, and frustratingly, with no beveling of the holes. Despite the lack of countersinking/beveling, it was used for 29 years covering over 50k+ nautical miles, and never once leaked a drop. Butyl is an exceptional sealant and the deck, even after 29 years and 50k+ miles, was still 100% bone dry, not delaminated, and confirmed dry with a moisture meter and soundings.

You can see the pure white core and no signs of moisture damage.









Anyone who has been around boats for a long time knows what the back side of a deck looks like when the backing plates come off and the fitting has been leaking. Trust me, it looks nothing like this. Butyl tape, a deck cleat that sees tremendous loads, no countersinking, and yet 29 years of service later and BONE DRY! No rust, no brown goo, and no signs of any leakage.

I re-bedded much of a 2005 Catalina in 2006 and the vessel already had multiple deck fitting leaks. This is 100% inexcusable on a 1-year-old vessel! Properly installed butyl tape, in my humble opinion, is a far superior deck sealant than any of the polysulfides or polyurethanes currently marketed for above-deck applications.

Though with either butyl, polysulfides, or polyurethanes they will all work very, very well IF properly installed. "IF PROPERLY INSTALLED" being the keywords and properly includes countersinking the holes.

All deck hardware will eventually need re-bedding no matter how good your sealant is. Why make things more difficult than they have to be in the future by using Satan's Glue (AKA 5200) which has a 700 PSI bond strength? Why do this when a product with just 10-20 PSI will achieve at least the SAME and more often BETTER results or outcomes without all the headaches?

Keep in mind that 3M 5200 can actually bond to the gelcoat more strongly than the gelcoat is bonded to the fiberglass substrate! Unnecessary bond strength? Absolutely! Think about this, the Satan's Glue marketing mavens at 3M have probably driven millions of dollars in repair revenue for boat yards and have actually spawned & supported an entire business dedicated to selling polyurethane/ 3M 5200 removal products! Again, ridiculous!:doh: This level of adhesion is 100% unnecessary.









Just one last bit of evidence as to why I prefer butyl tape for deck hardware over Satan's Glue or its extended family of misfit relatives.

This is the genoa track on our CS-36T as photographed in year 31. The track is still bedded with the original butyl tape she left the factory with in 1979. The track, 31 years later, is still BONE DRY, does not leak, and has not leaked in 31 years and 50,000+ nautical miles. We run a 150 genny most of the year, just as the previous owner did so this track sees some heavy loads.

I've seen some less than 4-year-old boats bedded with Satan's Glue or its relatives dripping wet with rust-stained bolts and wet core at year four and sometimes earlier.

This genny track was installed without countersinking the holes. Just an aluminum genoa track bedded with butyl tape in 1979. Bevel the holes and it will probably go 70 years without a leak. 









Just a quick tip on removing hardware. A cordless impact driver can make short one person work at removing the nuts on the inside of the boat.

For stanchions and other hardware, I often re-install them with hexhead bolts rather than Phillips or slot-headed screws. This allows me to tape a wrench to the deck using Gorilla Tape to keep it from moving then hit the inside with the impact driver, wrench, or socket wrench. If you use the impact driver to re-install please DO NOT overdo it. These tools are powerful and fast. I would advise against the use of one for re-installing the hardware until you know you are competent with it.

Impact drivers work via hundreds of rapid-fire quick impacts or beats per minute sort of like a machine gun. These small, short, very fast beats or impacts will almost always break a nut free from one side without even using a wrench or screwdriver on deck.









This is one of my impact drivers, it's a cheap Ryobi and does the job. While I much prefer the quality & torque of a Li-Ion-powered Makita, Bosch, Hitachi, or other premium brands I won't lose sleep if I hand this one off to Davey Jones and that kind of Li-Ion torque power is just not necessary here..









One last trick. We've all removed old hardware from a boat only to be left with a hole in the fiberglass. You can try to patch it with gelcoat and may succeed, or you may make it worse if you're not well-versed in gelcoat repair. Here's a quicker way to get back to boating.

Simply countersink the hole then use a truss head machine screw or your preferred style, and butyl tape to cover & seal the hole. Truss head machine screws are available from most nut and bolt suppliers like Fastenal. Truss head machine screws have a much wider and lower profile head than a pan head machine screw. The truss head machine screws lend themselves well to plugging old holes with butyl tape.

First, make a butyl cone around the head.









Choose your weapon. I prefer the truss heads as I feel they seal better and will have less potential for leaking. They are also very low profile and make for a somewhat professional-looking band-aid.









Clean the surface and insert the butyl-wrapped machine screw.









You can see the cone fitting nicely into the beveled hole.









Have one person hold the screw head with a screwdriver to keep it from spinning then go below and install the nut and washer and tighten it down..

*I will leave you with some general rules I follow for bedding deck hardware:

#1 SEALANT ON DECK* - Don't bed or use sealant on the inside of the deck. If it leaks you WANT to know about it. By sealing the backing plate side or the inside of the boat you can force the water into the core if it's not sealed. You can also cause any trapped water to become starved of oxygen. This can lead to pitting or crevice corrosion of the stainless bolts potentially leading to a catastrophic bolt failure. Only seal the deck side.

*#2 TIGHTEN ONCE* - Whether you use butyl or a tube-type sealant Please do not listen to the old wives' tale about letting sealant cure and then tightening it a second time. While in "theory" this sounds all warm and fuzzy, the raw reality of the real world is that this is a disaster waiting to happen. There is a much easier way!

Countersink the deck hole and tighten it ONCE. As I ranted about above, the "let cure, tighten twice" advice is perhaps the absolute worst advice ever foisted upon the unsuspecting boating community.

Messed-up attempts at this method run rampant and this has perhaps been the cause of more deck leaks than if you were to use Swiss cheese to bed your fittings. Though I strongly suspect Swiss cheese might actually work better. I have had a moisture meter on lots of DIY and "professionally" bedded "tighten twice" boats and there is a huge correlation to "tighten twice" and wet decks, HUGE.

*#3 SILICONE* - Avoid silicone! There are only two situations where silicone should be used and that is for bedding acrylic dead lights or plastic fittings that are damaged by polysulfides or polyurethanes such as Beckson products. Dow 795 or similar should be used for acrylic ports/dead lights.

Silicone contamination of gelcoat is very, very real. It is nearly impossible to clean and remove silicone from gelcoat and auto body products intended for metal are not safe for gelcoat. To effectively remove silicone from gelcoat requires judicious manual cleaning then wet sanding and rinsing the paper frequently to clear it of silicone traces so you don't grind it deeper into the gelcoat. To test if the silicone is gone spray the area with a misting bottle of water. If the water beads, it is not clean.

A friend owned a mid-eighties Catalina where the previous owner had used silicone to bed the chain plates. Even after re-bedding, they leaked every year for about four years straight. He had even resorted to tenacious glues like 3M 5200, but still, it leaked. He finally called me to discuss it and we simply masked off the surrounding areas with 3M film tape and ground and sanded away the silicone contamination. The chain plates have been dry since. Lesson learned: the silicone must be COMPLETELY removed before any re-bedding.

If you think you've cleaned dry silicone with Acetone, De-Bond or any of the other products folks claim have worked guess again. Over many years I have tried nearly every chemical under the sun to remove silicone contamination and the only thing that works is a thorough manual cleaning and sanding. If you want to almost guarantee that the fitting will leak the next time you re-bed then go ahead and use silicone.

Please, if anyone knows of a product that will remove dried silicone from gelcoat let me know. As of yet, every "surefire" silicone remover touted to me has failed miserably, including De-Bond.

*#4 CLEAN* - When bedding hardware, clean everything. The deck, the hardware, the bolts, the heads of the bolts, etc. Bolts especially still have cutting oils and residue from machining on them so if you want a good seal clean, clean, clean...

*#5 Tube Caulks* - When you need to use a tube caulk for deck fittings choose one with LOW ADHESION. Polysulfides like Life-Calk are generally the lowest in adhesion but Sikaflex 291 @ 260 PSI and 295 UV @ 160 PSI are both less than 3M 4200 @ 300 PSI or 3M UV 4000 @ 300 PSI and a better choice IMHO. I generally prefer Sikaflex 295 UV for deck stuff and Sika 291 for below water, both 295 UV and 291 are polyurethanes with a 500% elongation rating.









After many requests, I finally found an excellent quality butyl tape for marine applications. You can buy it here:

*Bed-It Marine Sealant Tape*


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## jrd22

Excellent MS, that should cut down on the PM's. Great pics.


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## Freesail99

I might add that on a hot summer day butyl tape can be brutal to work with because it stretches so easy. As said above do not use the black butyl tape as it will stain your boat.


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## tempest

Wow!...what a great instructional! 

Thanks, MS.


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## JohnRPollard

Outstanding tutorial! I've been waiting for this one.

If you don't mind, I'll make it a sticky. This will make it easier for everyone to find and should also cut down on the PMs to your account.

Thanks.


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## Maine Sail

JohnRPollard said:


> Outstanding tutorial! I've been waiting for this one.
> 
> If you don't mind, I'll make it a sticky. This will make it easier for everyone to find and should also cut down on the PMs to your account.
> 
> Thanks.


Thanks John!


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## degreeoff

I found a killer deal on above mentioned tape.... I will share for those wishing to buy

Roof Repair, Roofing Supplies, Roofing Materials, Waterproofing, Fasteners and Sealants

Product ID: TAPE-5697 
Product Name: 3/8" Wide X 3/32" Thick X 50 Ft. High-Temp. Butyl Rubber Sealing Tape 
Special Attributes (if any): 
Price/Each: $2.49


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## Faster

Another Grrrrreat post in a long line of them.

Question: Say you're bedding a 6 foot long genoa track, do you think it practical to preinstall all the machine screws first? Seems it would be very tough to get them all to go in at once without disturbing the carefully placed butyl.....


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## sailingdog

While their prices are reasonable, their shipping rates are obnoxiously high.... I would not use them.


degreeoff said:


> I found a killer deal on above mentioned tape.... I will share for those wishing to buy
> 
> Roof Repair, Roofing Supplies, Roofing Materials, Waterproofing, Fasteners and Sealants
> 
> Product ID: TAPE-5697
> Product Name: 3/8" Wide X 3/32" Thick X 50 Ft. High-Temp. Butyl Rubber Sealing Tape
> Special Attributes (if any):
> Price/Each: $2.49


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## Maine Sail

Faster said:


> Another Grrrrreat post in a long line of them.
> 
> Question: Say you're bedding a 6 foot long genoa track, do you think it practical to preinstall all the machine screws first? Seems it would be very tough to get them all to go in at once without disturbing the carefully placed butyl.....


Done it and it works fine. It is actually easier than it seems it would be. Also good quality genny tracks have a concave sealant groove on the bottom.


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## sailingdog

I'd point out that using butyl is actually easier and simpler than using some of the other sealants, since *BUTYL TAPE DOES NOT CURE*. You're not under the same time constraints as if you were using something that does have a limited working time. This means you can take your time and make sure the hardware is bedded properly.



Faster said:


> Another Grrrrreat post in a long line of them.
> 
> Question: Say you're bedding a 6 foot long genoa track, do you think it practical to preinstall all the machine screws first? Seems it would be very tough to get them all to go in at once without disturbing the carefully placed butyl.....


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## Rxman47

Maine,
Going to ask a noob question. can you use butyl tape to bed rope clutches?
Have minor repair to do on the two on my H336.
Thanks
John


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## mikeandrebecca

Excellent post. Thank you.

Mike


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## sailingdog

Yes.


Rxman47 said:


> Maine,
> Going to ask a noob question. can you use butyl tape to bed rope clutches?
> Have minor repair to do on the two on my H336.
> Thanks
> John


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## messer999

Outstanding tutorial! They say a picture is worth a thousand words but these were worth far more than that. Great idea with the clear surface for the demo pictures! Thanks


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## weephee

Perfect timing for me as well. Thanks for a great lesson.


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## CalypsoP35

*Thank you!*

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!!!!! Not only is your post great, so is the timing! (for me anyway )


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## davidpm

So butyl tape for deck hardware, tracks, chain plates, cleats, clutches etc.
What would you not use it for.

Hull, deck is 5200, you want to super glue effect right.
What about aluminum framed port lights?
Plastic frame less port lights?


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## Freesail99

davidpm said:


> So butyl tape for deck hardware, tracks, chain plates, cleats, clutches etc.
> What would you not use it for.
> 
> Hull, deck is 5200, you want to super glue effect right.
> What about aluminum framed port lights?
> Plastic frame less port lights?


For port lights, I think butyl tape is perfect as it forms a nice flexible gasket. I see no difference if the frame is metal or plastic as far as butyl tape is concerned.


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## sailingdog

If the aluminum framed ports have the frames screwed or bolted to the boat, then sure, butyl tape is perfect... Plastic frameless port lights should be adhered using Dow 795 structural silicone adhesive.

Stuff under the water line, through-hulls near the water line, and anything that may be exposed to significant amounts of fuel, like the diesel deck fill, should also not be bedded using Butyl, since butyl dissolves in petroleum products.



davidpm said:


> So butyl tape for deck hardware, tracks, chain plates, cleats, clutches etc.
> What would you not use it for.
> 
> Hull, deck is 5200, you want to super glue effect right.
> What about aluminum framed port lights?
> Plastic frame less port lights?


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## sailingdog

It isn't strong enough to work with plastic ports that are frameless, which shouldn't be screwed or through-bolted to the cabintop, due to thermal expansion issues.


Freesail99 said:


> For port lights, I think butyl tape is perfect as it forms a nice flexible gasket. I see no difference if the frame is metal or plastic as far as butyl tape is concerned.


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## davidpm

sailingdog said:


> Stuff under the water line, through-hulls near the water line, and anything that may be exposed to significant amounts of fuel, like the diesel deck fill, should also not be bedded using Butyl, since butyl dissolves in petroleum products.


So what is the preferred sealant for through-hulls?


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## Maine Sail

davidpm said:


> So what is the preferred sealant for through-hulls?


Polyurethanes like Sika 291, 3M 4200 or a Polysulfide like Boat Life Life Calk..


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## davidpm

Maine Sail said:


> Polyurethanes like Sika 291, 3M 4200 or a Polysulfide like Boat Life Life Calk..


Thanks MS

Since the boat stores all carry 4200 and do not carry butyl for small jobs what it the biggest downside to using 4200 for deck bedding in a pinch?
I know it cures so you have to get the part bolted down before it drys.


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## Bene505

davidpm said:


> Thanks MS
> 
> Since the boat stores all carry 4200 and do not carry butyl for small jobs what it the biggest downside to using 4200 for deck bedding in a pinch?
> I know it cures so you have to get the part bolted down before it drys.


David,

I just got a big roll in the mail. You want some of it?

Regards,
Brad


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## JohnRPollard

davidpm said:


> Thanks MS
> 
> Since the boat stores all carry 4200 and do not carry butyl for small jobs what it the biggest downside to using 4200 for deck bedding in a pinch?
> I know it cures so you have to get the part bolted down before it drys.


David,

4200 is the product I usually use too. I know it's good at what it does, but I hate the mess it can make if you're not really careful. And also the problems/cleanup it creates if you need to remove hardware. Too bad the chandleries don't make butyl tape available.


----------



## jarcher

*My experience with butyl tape - sticky and messy!*

Last season I bedeed my traveler track, along with other stuff, with butyl tape. I made a few mistakes and caused myself some problems, which I am now fixing. 

First, I ran the butyl tape all along the bottom of the track, which was not necessary. At the time I figured "why not?" Here is why. After the traveler was fully tightened, I removed the excess oozed tape, but I could not get it all. Some spots were hard to access, because of where my traveler is mounted, but other spots that were accessible still always had a very small bead of the tape there.

During the season, it remained sticky, and collected all kinds of dirt and junk. This dirt and junk then got into the traveler cars ball bearings, which of course screwed up the operation of the traveler. I just learned all this the other day, when I removed the damaged traveler from the boat to repair it.

I may go with a marine sealant that cures and so does not remain sticky when it goes back, but I may also use butyl tape again. If i do, it will go only where the holes are. I'll probably use less of it and maybe not put to across the full width of the track.

The upside was that it didn't leak even a drop, which is why I am considering using it again. I am thinking its better for chain plates, cleats and such, and less so for tracks that have things rolling across them.


----------



## sailingdog

Jarcher—

Butyl tape is fine for tracks, but you do need to remove the excess properly. 

I wouldn't recommend doing just the fastener holes, as that can lead to water collecting under the traveler, and if it freezes, you could get screwed. A cotton swab, like a q-tip, moistened with mineral spirits will often allow you to remove stuff that is difficult to access areas.


----------



## funjohnson

What about using butyl tape on the chain plates that previously had silicon chalk? I tried removing as much of the chalk as possible, but the butyl tape still doesn't seem to want to stick the that chain plates themselves or the covers that screw on. Is there a trick from getting the adhesive action of the tape to work with previously siliconed metal, or should I not worry and just bolt them down?


----------



## Fitz87

Thanks for the great post! 

I bought some butyl tape from the mobile home website and used it last weekend puting my boarding ladder back on. It worked great and I didn't have to wory about dripping goo all over the freshly panted transom. 

Thanks again.


----------



## mhancock

*Butyl Tape*

I have been using butyl tape for years. You can buy rolls of it at most RV centers. I get it at one near my marina and pay about $5 a roll. That is why West Marine and others don't sell it. It is way too cheap.

Another benefit - the leftover 4200 and such in a tube will harden and get thrown away - you don't have any waste with butyl.

I keep a ball of it handy while I work on the boat. Need to plug some holes temporarily? Just stuff some butyl tape in the hole. I plugged some holes when I removed deck hardware when I was painting the boat. Had no leaks at all.

I also use a bit of it on the end of a screw to "glue" it to a screwdriver when needed.


----------



## therapy23

Maine Sail said:


> Here's how I bed with butyl.


Thanks Main Sail.

Well done, as always.


----------



## WDaniels

> What about using butyl tape on the chain plates that previously had silicon chalk? I tried removing as much of the chalk as possible, but the butyl tape still doesn't seem to want to stick the that chain plates themselves or the covers that screw on. Is there a trick from getting the adhesive action of the tape to work with previously siliconed metal, or should I not worry and just bolt them down?


Funjohnson,
Soften up and clean off the silicon with "Maring Formula" by DeBond Corp and wipe clean with acetone or some other solvent that will not leave any residue behind. Then get Sikaflex 210T Primer. Apply primer to the metal as the directions say. No more problems with butyl tape sticking to any metal.

Mhancock,
What I do to keep 4200, 5200 or any other sealant that uses moisture to cure, I remove the plastic point and clean off the tip down a little then incert a button head screw that the head is the same size as the tip. Now for the secret part, I go out and buy a container of "RedCaps". The container looks and is almost the size of a can of chewing tobacco. The red caps are rubber and look like mini condoms. They go over the tip of the adhesive. It will keep out all moisture. They are designed to go over the plastic tip and pull down, hence the condom look. But I've found that it doesn't keep the adhesive long that way. The way I described on doing it I have used a tube of 5200 for over 3 months and still flow out the tube. Just my 2 cents worth.
WD


----------



## oceanscapt

I like the idea! However, I do have a question about sealing the hole in your vessel. Are you planning on the Butyl to prevent water from getting between the layers or are you drilling through solid glass?

If you're drilling through core then I'd consider adding some glass and resin to protect the hole from absorbing moisture. Other than that, it appears that the Butyl will do quite well in your application, and come apart easier that 5200.


----------



## sailingdog

Maine Sail, myself and others have addressed potting the core material properly in several threads.



oceanscapt said:


> I like the idea! However, I do have a question about sealing the hole in your vessel. Are you planning on the Butyl to prevent water from getting between the layers or are you drilling through solid glass?
> 
> If you're drilling through core then I'd consider adding some glass and resin to protect the hole from absorbing moisture. Other than that, it appears that the Butyl will do quite well in your application, and come apart easier that 5200.


----------



## lydanynom

I did both my grabrails with butyl a couple of weeks ago, used an impact driver to tighten them down progressively over the course of a long afternoon, then trimmed up the excess the next morning with a plastic razor blade.

The problem is that I am still getting a tiny additional bead of squeeze out after a day or two. I've cleaned it up three times now and it keeps coming back. You have to look very close to even see it, but it is enough that I think it will collect dirt over time, get on lines or gloves, and etc.

I covered the entire pad rather than just a bit in the middle as in the pic above. Is that the source of my trouble?


----------



## jarcher

lydanynom said:


> .
> .
> .
> 
> I covered the entire pad rather than just a bit in the middle as in the pic above. Is that the source of my trouble?


Others here have pointed out that if you don't cover the entire surface water can get in between and freeze, potentially damaging stuff. I have found that the seeping never stops. Personally, I no longer use butyl tape on tracks and other areas with moving parts. I used it on my traveler once and it got into the bearings.


----------



## e-27 sailor

I've spent the last several weeks re-bedding a lot of hardware, removing deck coring, filling with epoxy, re-drilling fastener holes, and remounting with butyl tape. In the past, I've used other products, but I'm now convinced butyl tape has to be the easiest product I’ve ever used. 

Now it's time for the chainplates, and my concern is getting enough butyl tape below the deck and between the chainplate-deck gap without enlarging the gap too much. My thought is to heat up both the chanplate and then wrap the butyl tape on, heat the tape, and the slide the chainplate from the top. I could then try to pack more butyl from above. The other option is Boatlife, which is more viscous.


----------



## sailingdog

You shouldn't need that much butyl tape for the chainplates. Heating the butyl tape and then working it into the gap between the chainplate and the deck with a plastic putty knife is probably your best bet.


----------



## floatsome

oomfh said:


> A plastic straw is a good tool for making a hole in butyl tape.


Brilliant!


----------



## ambianceack

great presentation,we are rebedding our chain plates,we werewondering on how to wrap the chain plate


----------



## ceddavis

*Re-bedding track*

I will be removing the Jjb track and re-bedding on my 24, so this was great. A question on the exisitng holes:

Water has been coming through the holes (hence to need to re-bed). What is the prefered method of preping the holes? I've seen other threads about wetting them down with epoxy, then removing and filling with thickened expoxy and re-drilling. Others have suggested brilling them out wider first.

Others mention that acetone will absorb water.

What do y'all think? (The deck around the track seems sound, so ripping out and replacing all the balsa is not under consideration)

All three?

1. Drill out the holes (how larges?)
2. Dry with Acetone?
3. Fill with epoxy, then clear; Then re-fill with thinkened epoxy and re-drill?

Thanks


----------



## Maine Sail

ceddavis said:


> A question on the exisitng holes:
> 
> Water has been coming through the holes (hence to need to re-bed). What is the prefered method of preping the holes?


If they are wet TRY and let them dry out over a winter or more then measure them with a Moisture meter. Epoxy, penetrating epoxy and all the other snake oils out there do NOTHING to stick to wet balsa. You are better off to leave it damp and re-bed properly than to try and pot the hole with the balsa wet.



ceddavis said:


> I've seen other threads about wetting them down with epoxy, then removing and filling with thickened expoxy and re-drilling. Others have suggested brilling them out wider first.


The filling with un-thickened then thickened is to allow some fine penetration and a better bond to the surrounding balsa rather than just dumping in thickened epoxy. Think of it as a bonding primer. You then thicken it and have a good base for the thickened epoxy to bond to. Dentists do a similar thing with the polymer fillings. They first bore out the tooth then apply an unthickend priming resin which penetrates into all the small pores. The thickened polymer is then added over the top of the primer/penetrating resin and the filling is then complete after some finishing.



ceddavis said:


> Others mention that acetone will absorb water.


Wishful thinking that in theory sounds good. Acetone poured in between a deck only serves to melt and damage the bond between the balsa and deck skin. Acetone becomes non-fast evaporating between deck skins and actually can become resin eating & softenting. Removing water takes either excavation or many, many, many holes drilled and months of drying. Do the acetone trick on some foam cores and your really screwed.

Keep in mind that with decks that were hand laid, not infused or vacuum bagged, that there will almost ALWAYS be channeling of the moisture meaning that the water is usually more wide spread than just near the fitting as it rides the kerfs in the contour cut balsa or foam.



ceddavis said:


> What do y'all think? (The deck around the track seems sound, so ripping out and replacing all the balsa is not under consideration)


Bed it properly, beveling the holes etc., to stop any more water ingress, and go sailing...



ceddavis said:


> All three?
> 
> 1. Drill out the holes (how larges?)


Personally, I really dislike the over-sized hole method as it breaks the continuity of the top, bottom or both skins. A captured plug is and will be a stronger deck and an over-sized hole. The over-sized hole method to me is a shortcut. I have seen them fail.

These were completely over-drilled and two of the stanchions on this boat broke the "plugs" right out of the deck. I snapped this shot of one of the chunks but this was not even one of the bad ones. There were multiple bad things done in this installation but the reality is that if it was "bored", leaving both skins intact, rather than over drilled, the deck would not have required a massively $$ repair to correct the DIY hack job. This one boat had multiple plug failures and not all were stanchions.








.



ceddavis said:


> 2. Dry with Acetone?


If it makes you feel good you can try it but you may find you have created more trouble than good.



ceddavis said:


> 3. Fill with epoxy, then clear; Then re-fill with thinkened epoxy and re-drill?


If the deck is wet just re-bed and stop any further ingress. Potting wet balsa is an exercise "feelings" mostly. If it makes you feel good do it. The bond just will not be there and you will have little epoxy towers between the deck skins that are not adhered. You will see this when you finally have to excavate it.

If the soundings are good and the deck is not dripping brown goo then you'd be surprised how long a boat with wet decks can remain structurally bonded.

If you need a supply of butyl feel free to PM me.


----------



## CapnRon47

*sealing around mounted wood toerail*

I am refinishing the teak toerails, their attachment to the deck is fine and there are no leaks. However, the current sealant (unknown) has dried and breaks away from the teak (and deck) along the joint between the teak and the gelcoat as I scrape it. I do not intend to remove and rebed the toerail. What would you recommend I use to reform a bead along the joint between the teak and the deck?

Thanks,


----------



## kd3pc

Got my rolls of tape, (Thanks Maine) and put them to use this weekend. I removed the fore hatch, the week before the big rains and got back to the boat to put the new hatch in...

The tape is a tad sticky, easy to work with, and I am hoping will work quite well. As my hatch was not 100% flat to the fore peak, two rear corners of the hatch about 1/8" off the deck and around the bends for almost 2"...so I cut a 1" length and attached, that followed by a 2.5" piece, a 4" piece and so on until I built up (or down - depending on how you look at it..) the wedge needed. Then I laid the two overlapping strips on the screw line and had the admiral help me gently lay the new hatch in place.

I used the end of a papermate ink pen to cut screw holes, and use small drill bits as allignment pins to drop the new hatch on. Removed the first drill bit, and replaced with a screw, as with the other 4. The started the remaining screws. Went below to make sure that all was well. So far so good.

New hatch is in place, warming up nicely, and I will take a final turn on the screws later this afternoon. 

Lessons learned...using the suggested hardware was best - called for flathead #8 screws, PO used #10 pan head sheet metal screws which stuck up in to the seal area.....MORE tape is better than less tape...I did have one small gap...that I was able to pull/stretch the butyl tape and slide it in as I set the hatch - would have been better to build up the corners more the first go round, as once placed the tape is quite sticky..

Will see how well it has sealed later in the season when the rains come again.

All the best.


----------



## wayne56

Great tutorial! A million ways to do things wrong, but with the right knowledge / guidance...
Thanks


----------



## vmerlot

Great instructions!


----------



## sailingdog

If the underlying surface isn't flat for the hatch to sit on, you'd be better off building it up with thickened epoxy or fiberglass to the proper height than using butyl to fill the gap.



kd3pc said:


> Got my rolls of tape, (Thanks Maine) and put them to use this weekend. I removed the fore hatch, the week before the big rains and got back to the boat to put the new hatch in...
> 
> The tape is a tad sticky, easy to work with, and I am hoping will work quite well. *As my hatch was not 100% flat to the fore peak, two rear corners of the hatch about 1/8" off the deck and around the bends for almost 2"..*.so I cut a 1" length and attached, that followed by a 2.5" piece, a 4" piece and so on until I built up (or down - depending on how you look at it..) the wedge needed. Then I laid the two overlapping strips on the screw line and had the admiral help me gently lay the new hatch in place.
> 
> I used the end of a papermate ink pen to cut screw holes, and use small drill bits as allignment pins to drop the new hatch on. Removed the first drill bit, and replaced with a screw, as with the other 4. The started the remaining screws. Went below to make sure that all was well. So far so good.
> 
> New hatch is in place, warming up nicely, and I will take a final turn on the screws later this afternoon.
> 
> Lessons learned...using the suggested hardware was best - called for flathead #8 screws, PO used #10 pan head sheet metal screws which stuck up in to the seal area.....MORE tape is better than less tape...I did have one small gap...that I was able to pull/stretch the butyl tape and slide it in as I set the hatch - would have been better to build up the corners more the first go round, as once placed the tape is quite sticky..
> 
> Will see how well it has sealed later in the season when the rains come again.
> 
> All the best.


----------



## L124C

Just bedded a grab rail with Butyl. It's cheap, easy to work with (much easier than caulk IMO). My question is; why doesn't anybody seem to know about it (in California anyway)? Chandleries and even a shipwright I asked drew a blank. It doesn't seem to be available in California. One Chandlery who knew what it was can't get it anymore. I bought it from an out of state RV supply on the Web. Is it toxic to make or handle? Seems pretty benign to me! I got two rolls that will last me a long long time for about $20 including shipping (the stuff is heavy!). Probably should have ordered one!


----------



## mitiempo

No, it's not toxic - unless you eat it anyway. Not specifically "marine" though and doesn't have the international rep like Sikaflex or 3M products. And apparently no advertising. But Canadian Sailcraft boats (I have a CS27) used it for all deck hardware as well as the hull/deck joint. I have no leaks from any original hardware attachments. I also just removed my forward hatch to replace it because it was basically falling apart and not worth the rebuild. It leaked between the acrylic and the frame but the frame/deck attachment with butyl was leak free - after 33 years. The butyl was still flexible as well because it doesn't ever dry out or harden. Needless to say the new hatch will be butyl sealed as well. I'm sure other builders have used butyl as well.


----------



## Maine Sail

mitiempo said:


> I'm sure other builders have used butyl as well.


Sabre did too. It is hard to find because even the glazing industry has moved towards adhesive sealants. Butyl is more labor intensive to do it right, hence the move buy builders away from it. The rolls also collect factory dust if not kept clean something they don't have to worry about with gun injected goop..

It took me months to find the "right stuff" that the builders used to use because the glazing and RV industries are now using a slightly different material, still butyl but not the same consistency...


----------



## LakeSuperiorGeezer

Look up Recreational Vehicles in the phone book, call and ask if they have butyl tape. Most do.


----------



## mitiempo

In my area (Victoria) there is no problem finding gray butyl in hardware stores at $5 or so a roll.


----------



## SVCarolena

Maine Sail said:


> It took me months to find the "right stuff" that the builders used to use because the glazing and RV industries are now using a slightly different material, still butyl but not the same consistency...


MS - can you give us a source for the butyl you are using? I purchased a roll from an online RV dealer about a year ago and after lots of rebedding projects I'm almost out and about to place another order.


----------



## therapy23

Maine Sail said:


> It took me months to find the "*right stuff"* that the builders used to use because the glazing and RV industries are now using a slightly different material, still butyl but not the same consistency...


Well crap!

It took a bit to get mine.

Now I don't know. It is grey. It came from a RV place in Tampa - world famous Lazy Days. , Well, the store next to it anyway.


----------



## eherlihy

SVCarolena said:


> MS - can you give us a source for the butyl you are using? I purchased a roll from an online RV dealer about a year ago and after lots of rebedding projects I'm almost out and about to place another order.


You can get it directly from MS!

SailboatOwners.com - Marketplace - Category - For sale - Bed-It - Butyl Bedding Tape

Disclaimer: No financial interest in MS... but grateful for all that he's done for the community.

[EDIT:] I just checked the link above and could not find the advertisement that I originally referenced. I did some poking around and found this from Maine_Sail; 


> 1-27-2011
> 
> Guys,
> 
> I will be away on business from Jan 28th through about April 25th. During that time I will not be able to ship butyl tape.
> 
> I will resume shipping the butyl when I get back. The tape I sell is not readily available but there are some products out there that can work OK. If you need it fast you might need to buy another type of butyl tape from another an on-line source. As always use gray and not black!!


This may explain why he has been so quiet lately...


----------



## casey1999

*Deck Hardware using Butyl Tape*

Maine Sail,
In the slides it looks as if the cleat was aluminum using stainless steel bolts. Will the Butyl provide proper isolation between the two materials to prevent corrosion?
Thanks for your presentation on Butyl Tape


----------



## Barquito

*If this is the right stuff, a couple more sources.*

Amazon.com: 3/4" X 30' Butyl Tape: Home Improvement
Butyl Rubber Tape - Flexible tacky adhesive Sealing Tape


----------



## sailingdog

Barquito said:


> Amazon.com: 3/4" X 30' Butyl Tape: Home Improvement
> Butyl Rubber Tape - Flexible tacky adhesive Sealing Tape


What ever you do, do NOT get the black butyl rubber tape... you will regret it... Get the grey or white stuff.


----------



## Maine Sail

Guys,

Based on some good questions I've had I made some major changes to the original post and made it much more detailed with a LOT more photos. 

You might want to go back and check out the changes...


----------



## lickingcardboard

Maine Sail i just read your post for the first time you have shown me that rebedding the gear on my boat should not be as hard as i had thought, thank you. 

Marty


----------



## sailingdog

I would add a couple of points.

First, butyl tape should be your choice for any through-bolted hardware that is above the waterline, with the exception of anything that is exposed to diesel, gasoline or other petroleum products on a regular basis, since they will damage the butyl tape. 

Second, when using the countersink bit to bevel holes in the gelcoat, I would recommend running it in reverse. This helps prevent it from chipping the gelcoat and also allows you better control over the depth of the countersinking.


----------



## ilikerust

Freesail99 said:


> For port lights, I think butyl tape is perfect as it forms a nice flexible gasket. I see no difference if the frame is metal or plastic as far as butyl tape is concerned.


Does it matter what the port light is made of? Specifically, I have a couple aluminum-framed port lights in which the window pane itself is Lexan. I'm assuming the butyl tape will work just fine with the Lexan?

And I also will join the chorus of thousands saying thanks so much for the detailed post about how to bed using butyl tape. I found a local RV place and bought two 50-foot rolls of the stuff for a whopping $8 each!

Yesterday I went up to my boat where it's on the hard and used some of the butyl to re-bed a small hatch above the dinette, which had been leaking slightly.

I discovered that some previous owner had bedded everything with what certainly appears to be white household door and window caulk. And all of it is leaking. After reading your how-to, I'm planning on pulling and re-bedding everything with the butyl tape.

Thanks!!


----------



## sailingdog

If he used *silicone household caulk*, rather than acrylic or butyl caulk (_which is not the same as the butyl tape in case anyone is wondering_), you're likely going to have to sand the fiberglass lightly to get rid of the contaminants from the silicone caulk, or nothing, not even butyl tape, will stick to the area properly.



ilikerust said:


> Does it matter what the port light is made of? Specifically, I have a couple aluminum-framed port lights in which the window pane itself is Lexan. I'm assuming the butyl tape will work just fine with the Lexan?
> 
> And I also will join the chorus of thousands saying thanks so much for the detailed post about how to bed using butyl tape. I found a local RV place and bought two 50-foot rolls of the stuff for a whopping $8 each!
> 
> Yesterday I went up to my boat where it's on the hard and used some of the butyl to re-bed a small hatch above the dinette, which had been leaking slightly.
> 
> I discovered that some previous owner had bedded everything with what certainly appears to be white household door and window caulk. And all of it is leaking. After reading your how-to, I'm planning on pulling and re-bedding everything with the butyl tape.
> 
> Thanks!!


----------



## L124C

Maine Sail said:


> I am going to inject some strong opinion here so please move on to the next photo if you don't want to hear it. I truly dislike and disagree with the Don Casey "two step", "wait to tighten and form a gasket" method of bedding deck hardware. In my opinion this method is probably one of the leading causes of deck core rot on the planet. Believe it or not, but I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I do however feel as if Don Casey wrote that technique to guarantee boatyards future revenue.:doh:
> Think about it? If the sealant cures, to form a "gasket", and you then move the bolt while tightening it down on the "second step".... you lose!


In fairness to Casey, he clearly specifies NOT to turn the bolt while tightening the fastener.
"After the sealant has reached full cure, tighten the fasteners by turning the nuts only to put the sealant under compression. Now you have a gasket, but when the space between the deck and the hardware inevitably expands under load, the seal has a much better chance of remaining intact."


----------



## mitiempo

It is hard to tighten the nut without moving the bolt. And if the bolt moves the only way to guarantee a proper long term seal is to re-do it all. 

I prefer Maine's method of countersinking the bolt holes a bit to form an "O" ring of sealant around the bolt and tightening once only.


----------



## Maine Sail

L124C said:


> In fairness to Casey, he clearly specifies NOT to turn the bolt while tightening the fastener.
> "After the sealant has reached full cure, tighten the fasteners by turning the nuts only to put the sealant under compression. Now you have a gasket, but when the space between the deck and the hardware inevitably expands under load, the seal has a much better chance of remaining intact."


And in fairness in the real word of boating I can assure you this rarely ever happens based on the sheer number of failures I have witnessed of the two step procedure. There are literally tens of thousands of boats with wet decks as a result of using the two step procedure.

It's also not just the bolt issue you can also make the gasket too thick and actually induce movement in the hardware. The other major factor is cure times. Considering PU sealants are moisture cure even a lab scientist does not really know just how cured your 4200 is under that stanchion, so how do you? Some of these sealants can take a month or more to fully cure underneath a stanchion or large surface area item. Who waits that long for the second step? When attempting this method there is a happy medium that you ideally need to hit. Full cure is far to late and minimal cure is, well, useless if you were trying to achieve this quest for the ultimate "gasket".

Butyl, well some of it, is by nature the perfect density and makes the perfect gasket material. Because it never hardens, always remains flexible and tacky, and does not mostly "squish out" like a PU does it makes for a very good and long lasting seal. Add a countersink to it and you have a bedded fitting that will be dry for a very, very long time.


----------



## casey1999

*Cathodic Corrosion*

MaineSail,
Looks like you are using a aluminum cleat with stainless screws. Will the Butly tape provide adequate isolation from the metals contacting and causing cathodic corrosion?

Also, what is the best way to maintain stainless standing rigging when it gets a rust colored tarnish look? Is a scotch pad or metal polish ok to use on cables and fitting?
Thanks


----------



## sailingdog

casey1999 said:


> MaineSail,
> Looks like you are using a aluminum cleat with stainless screws. Will the Butly tape provide adequate isolation from the metals contacting and causing cathodic corrosion?
> 
> Also, what is the best way to maintain stainless standing rigging when it gets a rust colored tarnish look? Is a scotch pad or metal polish ok to use on cables and fitting?
> Thanks


Butyl tape should provide a fairly decent galvanic isolation layer. It is very difficult to squeeze all the butyl tape out of a space between two surfaces, even if the surfaces are nearly perfectly matched.

As for standing rigging, A scotchbrite pad will help, but treating the stainless steel is probably going to help for a longer period of time. I've written a review of Spotless Stainless on my blog. It is a product that is designed to clean and help treat stainless steel by passivating it. You can *read the review here*.


----------



## L124C

mitiempo said:


> It is hard to tighten the nut without moving the bolt. And if the bolt moves the only way to guarantee a proper long term seal is to re-do it all.
> 
> I prefer Maine's method of countersinking the bolt holes a bit to form an "O" ring of sealant around the bolt and tightening once only.


I completely concur. I'm simply pointing out tha Casey does address the bolt issue (for what it's worth). However, I'm sold on Butyl and Maine's system. Just re bedded a 30 foot toe rail with it. No cure time to deal with, easy to clean up and about $5 in material. Whats not to love! Still can't imagine why I get blank stares when I ask chandleries if they have it... "what kind of tape???" 
I would think the yards would be using it! Maybe that brings us back to the "conspiracy theory"!


----------



## mitiempo

While I have no idea if any yards use butyl, CS was one manufacturer that used it extensively. My CS27 has butyl on all original deck fittings as well as the hull/deck join. No leaks and still flexible after 33 years. The only leaks my boat has had are with new fittings not using butyl and the chainplates which have silicone on them as well so that is not original. I recently removed my forehatch for replacement. Not because the butyl was bad as it didn't leak but the hatch was falling apart and the lens/frame seal needed re-doing. 
Mainesail's boat is also a CS - a CS36T.


----------



## knotted

Thanks for an excellent article, _Maine Sail_!

I'll be servicing the winches and replacing the grab and toe rails on my boat in the next few weeks, therefore my reading of your advice is very timely.  The rails show no signs of leaking on this 30 year old boat, so I'll ask the builder how they bedded them originally.

The port glazings have leaked, and the glazing needs replacement. The PO attempted caulking to seal, likely with silicone. I don't think the frame to hull joints leaked, I'll have to check. Butyl tape with bedding spacers sounds like the ideal re-glazing method, just like the high-rise windows use. (Stress between frame and glazing is a major cause of failure there)

A thought on aluminium fittings and stainless fasteners, as raised by _casey1999_. Two possibilities spring to mind, First, smear the butyl over the fastener thread length that resides inside the fitting. Second, would Teflon plumber's tape over the threads through the fitting and just a little longer than the thickness of the fitting, provide adequate galvanic isolation? I'm sure the isolation will be there, and that's easy to test using the continuity setting on a multi-meter. Since the cleat base isn't tapped, the tape would be intact. _But would it affect the butyl bedding?_ Has anyone tried using plumber's tape for this, or might I be the first? (and or foolhardy experimenter, if I have to re-bed mixed metals) For a blind-fastened fitting with SS fastener into aluminium fitting, tape might work; another option might be an anti-seize or low strength thread-locker coating, but the plumber's tape is at least not at all messy.

ps. Don't know of too many fittings that use blind tapped holes...


----------



## Maine Sail

knotted said:


> Has anyone tried using plumber's tape for this, or might I be the first? (and or foolhardy experimenter, if I have to re-bed mixed metals) For a blind-fastened fitting with SS fastener into aluminium fitting, tape might work; another option might be an anti-seize or low strength thread-locker coating, but the plumber's tape is at least not at all messy.
> 
> ps. Don't know of too many fittings that use blind tapped holes...


Much easier solution to dissimilar metals issues. Use TefGel !!


----------



## knotted

Now that's a really interesting product, _Maine Sail_ It would solve so many problems in one brush stroke! Not only prevention of galvanisation action, but it has anti-seize and anti-capillary actions too.

I don't know too much about this aspect, but I understand that torque specs for fasteners drop from those for a dry friction state, i.e. un-lubed, to a lower number when the fastener is 'wet' or lubed, to prevent over-stressing or stretching of the fastener. Is there any data on this?


----------



## copacabana

Does anyone know if Sika lastomer is the same as butyl? Has anyone tried using it on their boat? It comes in rolls and the colour is grey. It doesn't seem very sticky compared with the black stuff I've seen. The idea is to use it to seal bolted portlights (not used as an adhesive). Thanks in advance.


----------



## knotted

I've no experience, yet, with any bedding material. But a quick review of the Sika website found this: _"SikaSeal® and Sika Lastomer® butyl-rubber based products seal seams, cavities of various material substrates and their combinations. SikaSeal® and SikaLastomer® are available as performed profiles or in bulk, with or without expansion capability._" I've no idea how it compares with Maine Sail's butyl tape.

If you use it, follow all of _Maine Sail's_ recommendations, they are so logical and simple. Then tell us how it worked out!


----------



## copacabana

Thanks Knotted. I had seen that on the Sika site, but as there seems to be a number of different butyl tapes (black, white, tan, grey, automotive etc.) I was wondering if this Sika stuff was the right stuff. I ended up buying a box of 24 rolls of the Sika stuff as it's the only one I could find in Brazil (expensive!!). I'll try it out and get back to the forum with the results.


----------



## carl762

Thanks MS for the thread. I'm ready to start using the stuff. Made an Amazon order today. I'll start out with the new front cleat Saturday morning. 

Then, the other little repairs needing to be done. 

EDITED TO ADD: Last weekend I installed a new bow cleat on my boat. I'm very pleased with Butyl tape and the install job. My two live-a-board friends now are convinced that Butyl tape is the best thing since sliced bread, and they've borrowed some to use on their respective boats. Found a local RV supply place for a good source, as well as Amazon. 

Thanks Maine Sail. Everything on my boat will eventually be re-mounted with Butyl tape.


----------



## NoWet

*Butyl the way to go?*

I took off some teak to refinish, and as you can see there are some screw holes. Wondering if butyl tape is the way to re-install the screws, or do I need to do a full-on rebed -- drilling a bigger hole, filling with epoxy, then drilling the correct size for the screws, etc.

I see some spider cracks, so if using butyl tape, I should first bevel the holes a bit?

Thanks


----------



## mitiempo

Butyl is a good choice for sealant, as is Sika Flex 291 or 3M 4200. If the deck is cored you should overdrill and replace it with thickened epoxy in way of the fasteners. Countersinking the holes is important as well. Whatever sealant you use, when the fasteners are tightened it leaves a thin layer under the item. The countersink around the fastener holes creates an "O" ring of sealant where it is needed most. And it only takes a few minutes to do.


----------



## NoWet

Brian and others:
What type of "thickened epoxy" would you recommend?


----------



## mitiempo

Epoxy first mixed well and then thickened with colloidal silica to a sloppy peanut butter consistency (smooth not chunky ).


----------



## ilikerust

NoWet said:


> Brian and others:
> What type of "thickened epoxy" would you recommend?


A little "how do ya do it?" right here.


----------



## wordsort

I will be removing and replacing some deck/hole bolts. These are bolts that physically hold the hull to the deck. Would butyl tape be the right thing for this job or do I need something with some strength to prevent the two parts from shifting laterally?


----------



## mitiempo

Butyl is good for a hull/deck joint. The bolts will hold it whichever sealant you use - all the sealant does is keep out water.

My hull/deck joint and all other deck hardware is leakproof after 34 years and it was all factory bedded with butyl. The only problems I had were from previous owners not doing things properly.

All CS sailboats were factory bedded with butyl.


----------



## L124C

*Use Butyl on varnish?*

A friend has a lovely wooden boat. We were refinishing the mast and found rot under one of the forestay mounts. It's basically a stainless strap that is screwed and through bolted to the front of the wooden mast. I suggested using Butyl tape to seal it after the repair, as whatever they used before obviously didn't work! I provided a link to this thread. I thought surely, given the tackiness of the tape, it would adhere to varnish. However, he brought up an interesting point. 
"I re- read the article on Butyl tape and decided not to use the product because it would be sitting on a newly varnished surface. Varnish off-gasses volatiles for several weeks after it is applied. The volatiles are the thinners we would use for cleaning up the tape residue. The illustrations in the article featured hardware going onto gelcoated surfaces. Bottom line, I was worried about the gap, and the compatibility of the butyl tape and the thinners in the new varnish." 
I don't think the 1/8" gap is a problem and have used paint thinner to clean up excess Butyl, but wondered about the off gassing. 
Thoughts?


----------



## casey1999

L124C said:


> A friend has a lovely wooden boat. We were refinishing the mast and found rot under one of the forestay mounts. It's basically a stainless strap that is screwed and through bolted to the front of the wooden mast. I suggested using Butyl tape to seal it after the repair, as whatever they used before obviously didn't work! I provided a link to this thread. I thought surely, given the tackiness of the tape, it would adhere to varnish. However, he brought up an interesting point.
> "I re- read the article on Butyl tape and decided not to use the product because it would be sitting on a newly varnished surface. Varnish off-gasses volatiles for several weeks after it is applied. The volatiles are the thinners we would use for cleaning up the tape residue. The illustrations in the article featured hardware going onto gelcoated surfaces. Bottom line, I was worried about the gap, and the compatibility of the butyl tape and the thinners in the new varnish."
> I don't think the 1/8" gap is a problem and have used paint thinner to clean up excess Butyl, but wondered about the off gassing.
> Thoughts? 1


I have same type question. I was going to use the Butyl to bed teak wood on the deck, but if I use a teak or or Penofin oil will that destroy the Butyl bedding?


----------



## ceddavis

re: I have same type question. I was going to use the Butyl to bed teak wood on the deck, but if I use a teak or or Penofin oil will that destroy the Butyl bedding?

I had a similar issue. I coated the bottom of the wooden block to be bedded with 2 coats of West System epoxy. That waterproofs it, and prevents compatibility issues with the butyl. Kind of "belts and suspenders".

Chuck


----------



## Maine Sail

The off gassing after the varnish is "handling dry" should not pose an issue. Wet varnish will but once the solvents have evaporated off to the point where you can touch it and it feels dry it should not hurt the butyl. It may however prevent the varnish from further curing. I would not recommend it over varnish until it is cured which can take a couple of weeks to fully harden.

As for teak and teak oils they are all slightly different. Test some teak oil on a small piece of butyl tape and see if it softens it. Some teak oils don't have any effect and some do.

I have varnished many teak items bedded with butyl and it had no long term effects but you do want to varnish carefully as varnish contains solvents that can soften butyl. 

If you're concerned about solvents such as some teak oils a polysulfide like Life Calk is a good option.


----------



## L124C

Maine Sail said:


> The off gassing after the varnish is "handling dry" should not pose an issue. Wet varnish will but once the solvents have evaporated off to the point where you can touch it and it feels dry it should not hurt the butyl. It may however prevent the varnish from further curing. I would not recommend it over varnish until it is cured which can take a couple of weeks to fully harden.


He used Dolfinite instead of Butyl. I don't know anything a about Dolfinite, but it seems to me that anything you use to bed the hardware will isolate the varnish from the air, thereby terminating the cure of the varnish. I wonder if it matters, as the job of protecting the wood usually performed by the varnish has been taken over by the sealant and hardware. If it does matter, I would think you would need to let the varnish cure before reinstalling hardware, regardless of the bedding material used.


----------



## jmkrest

*Difficult window bedding problem*

I'm pretty excited about the butyl tape, and I just ordered a couple of rolls last night to check it out. I think it will work pretty well for my windows (portlights) where the flange meets the cabin, but I have a U-channel that holds the glass, and I need some advice on a good caulk to use to glaze it.

Each window is composed of two u-shaped aluminum frames with u-shaped channels that slide over the glass and are held together by short pieces of aluminum and four screws. The frame halves butt up against each other in a line with no overlap. There is a flange that is caulked and screwed onto the external window cutout.

We have tried 4200 and 4000 UV for sealing and bedding with poor results: the material seems to be a bit brittle after cure, and we've had numerous leaks. It also adheres too strongly to the painted surface, causing some damage when we remove the frames.

Can someone suggest a decent material for glazing the windows? There is approximately an 1/8" gap between the glass and aluminum on each side of the glass.

I have pics I am unable to post, but can share PM if necessary for clarity.


----------



## Maine Sail

jmkrest said:


> I'm pretty excited about the butyl tape, and I just ordered a couple of rolls last night to check it out.


Your tape shipped out first thing this morning. Thanks..



jmkrest said:


> Can someone suggest a decent material for glazing the windows? There is approximately an 1/8" gap between the glass and aluminum on each side of the glass.


Most of the aluminum U channel ports had extruded gaskets that the glass sat in. If you can measure the U channel you may try calling a company like Bomon (not Bomar) in Canada and asking who they would recommend for a supplier of channel gaskets for aluminum ports. Bomon can also make you brand new custom ports that match what you currently have for a fairly reasonable price.


----------



## lickingcardboard

hauled the boat home new years day, ordered the Buytl Tape the next week, been waiting for the title befor i started working on the boat, Title shoed up 4 days ago so i get to start working on the deck hardware and the wireing. Hopping to get her in the water in a week and a half max.


----------



## jmkrest

*progress with windows*



Maine Sail said:


> If you can measure the U channel you may try calling a company like Bomon (not Bomar) in Canada and asking who they would recommend for a supplier of channel gaskets for aluminum ports.


 Thanks Maine Sail! I got a chance to play with the butyl tape today, and it looks like it's going to be very useful.

I've been corresponding with Bomon, too, and they may have a gasket that will work. At a little under $4/ft, I may be able to re-gasket all seven fixed ports for less than $100.


----------



## brokesailor

*Butyl Tape shelf life*

I've had a roll of this stuff on a shelf for about 2 years. Does this stuff go bad or can I still use it?


----------



## Maine Sail

brokesailor said:


> I've had a roll of this stuff on a shelf for about 2 years. Does this stuff go bad or can I still use it?


It should still be fine. However some grades, it's not all the same quality stuff, does not last as long. Good stuff can still perform for many, many years.


----------



## mitiempo

Thge butyl the builder, CS, used on my hull/deck joint that has squeezed out is the same consistency as new butyl - after 34 years! Yes it should last if of comparable quality.


----------



## AdamLein

I'm looking for local sources for butyl tape (want to get a project done soon if I can) but am having trouble. Also there are so many varieties.

For example, this catalog from a local RV place shows several varieties, including "Butyl Caulking Tape" ($30/roll), "Black Non-Trimmable Butyl Tape", "Putty Tape" (a "non-hardening butyl material"), and "Trimmable Butyl Tape (off-white)" ($10/roll). Unfortunately when I called they only have "Butyl Putty Tape" in stock which is not identical in name to any of those items, but I'm guessing it's the same as "Putty Tape".

Ignoring the black, are the others basically the same as far as the uses in this thread go?


----------



## NoWet

I'm sure you are looking for some tape for this weekend, but I just received mine from Maine Sail -- two days. (Thanks)

MS: I trust that your brand is of high quality and a portion can sit in the basement for a couple of years prior to being used?


----------



## AdamLein

Yes, I am a bad person for putting off this project until now. If I can't find it by, say, Monday, it probably won't matter and I'll get MaineSail to ship me the good stuff.


----------



## Maine Sail

NoWet said:


> I'm sure you are looking for some tape for this weekend, but I just received mine from Maine Sail -- two days. (Thanks)
> 
> MS: I trust that your brand is of high quality and a portion can sit in the basement for a couple of years prior to being used?


The tape I offer is about the best quality for this type of service you can get. It was not easy to get nor easy to get the manufacturer to agree to it and I still have to buy it in multi-skid quantities.

I had a customer at my house two days ago who wondered how long this stuff lasts. I had saved a roll from 1996 of a similar type. I peeled off a piece, the wax paper is not in the best shape, and then he stretched and kneaded the two. The stuff from 1996 was still like new.. As Mitiempo said the stuff on our CS built boats is still flexible, gooey, sticky and still keeping water out even at 33 years old...

You really need to be careful with what "butyl" you get. RV butyl, much like masonry butyl is not the same stuff that was used by many builders back when butyl was widely used.

I have had three rolls of "butyl" sent to me by customers two of which were not even butyl but rather a "putty" and one which was so solvent rich it had melted and deformed in the box.

I tested over 40 different sources of butyl from various manufacturers and there is a VAST difference in the quality, elongation and durometer/density rating as well as working temp range. All butyl tape is not the same, so much like LED bulbs it has become buyer beware. Heck you may not even get butyl tape and even if you do the quality you get may not survive long in the marine environment.

This is a correspondence with one customer who bought the wrong butyl..

_*"Hello Maine,

Got the butyl rubber in time. Thanks for making the special trip!

Not that I didn't believe you, but I wanted to check out the two tapes myself. They are two totally different materials. I will be tossing the butyl rubber I bought previously. If you'll excuse the lousy video, I think you'll spot your tape.


https://picasaweb.google.com/rmcgil...key=Gv1sRgCLDbjJn1-5mVmQE#5606294158195187106

Thanks for the great product and for your technical tips.

Have a great weekend.

Bob*_"

Before doing all the hard work watch the video my customer made. My tape is the stuff on the left the other stuff is RV grade... Like many things in life you often do get what you pay for..


----------



## AdamLein

Maine Sail said:


> Before doing all the hard work watch the video my customer made. My tape is the stuff on the left the other stuff is RV grade... Like many things in life you often do get what you pay for.


I'm happy to pay the extra, just a matter of timing for me right now.

Anyway after you watch the video MaineSail linked, check out this one. Clearly we should all be sealing our deck hardware with Ramen:

YouTube - ‪Chinese chef forms noodles by hand - Pretty damn amazing‬‏


----------



## Skipaway

WOW. We've already become butyl tape converts. Now the discussion moves to quality of butyl tape! Actually seems an appropriate evolution. 

- Charlie (what do I do with my home depot stuff?)


----------



## mitiempo

Adam

Home hardware carries it in Victoria - at least they did last year. I paid under $10 for a roll and it seems to be the same as CS used decades ago. Other local hardware stores may have it as well, Capitol Iron in Victoria usually has it. All I found was grey which was what i wanted. I'd stay away from any black butyl.


----------



## rlkrest

*Thanks, Maine Sail, for your help.*



Maine Sail said:


> Your tape shipped out first thing this morning.
> ...
> Most of the aluminum U channel ports had extruded gaskets that the glass sat in. If you can measure the U channel you may try calling a company like Bomon ... in Canada and asking who they would recommend for a supplier of channel gaskets for aluminum ports.


Just reinstalled the four windows that were leaking, as well as some deck hardware. Thanks to the gaskets from Bomon and the butyl tape from Maine Sail, the windows are watertight, and we are nearly leak free. Just have a couple of stanchions and dorade boxes to get to when we repaint the deck. Thanks for the help - I think our results have made believers out of several people on our dock.


----------



## WDS123

Great photos and description ! 

On the Harbor line, we use G10 backing at all deck fittings. The balsa core is far away from any openings. G10 is a epoxy laminate that is pricey but worth it.


----------



## Maine Sail

WDSchock said:


> Great photos and description !
> 
> On the Harbor line, we use G10 backing at all deck fittings. The balsa core is far away from any openings. G10 is a epoxy laminate that is pricey but worth it.


That is the proper way to build a boat and makes the seal of the fittings a tad less important.. G-10 is excellent stuff and GPO-3 is a close second.

Do you have a less expensive source for G-10 I need to buy some large quantities? Feel free to PM it to me..


----------



## WDS123

Maine,


The G10 costs us a bloody fortune - I wish I had a lower cost source. We have even briefly mused about casting our own. 

The labor of cutting and laying out the G10 is also expensive, compared with just rolling out balsa.


----------



## CorvetteGuy

Is this magical tape the same used in industrial window applications?


----------



## NoWet

Maine.

Good to hear that it can sit in the basement for some years! Question: What's the best way to store it? Ziplock bag? As is? In a bucket of rain water? Under the cat box?


----------



## Maine Sail

NoWet said:


> Maine.
> 
> Good to hear that it can sit in the basement for some years! Question: What's the best way to store it? Ziplock bag? As is? In a bucket of rain water? Under the cat box?


I store it in a zip lock bag but more to keep dust and shop debris off it than anything else.


----------



## Maine Sail

CorvetteGuy said:


> Is this magical tape the same used in industrial window applications?


Yes and no. The newer glazing tapes are often shimmed and they have also been increasing the durometer ratings over the years and many are just to dense to work they way you want..

The product I sourced is very tough to get and is a lot closer to what was originally used by builders 30 years ago. I need to buy it in multi-skid orders to even get them to sell it to me. Over about six months I tested multiple tapes, talked to just about every manufacturer finally settled on one excellent tape.

That being said you are FAR better to use an architectural grade tape than any roofing or RV product. RV and roof products are not even close to a good quality butyl.


----------



## BobBill

*Bedding Deck Hardware*

*+1 Great advice. Many thanks.*


----------



## msulc

I was trying to bed my chainplates with Butyl Tape on a teak deck. I think over time bigger and bigger screws have been used and the screw in their right now is as big as it can get. A couple of the screws now turn in place and it is hard to get enough pressure on the chainplate to get the butyl tape to press down firmly. Could I just drill an oversized hole where the screws go in, fill it with epoxy, and then screw down the chainplates? Or should I replace the stripped area with another teak bung?


----------



## BobBill

*Rebedding Fastener Holes*

*Your answer may be here at the pbase.com link in the first post here under Deck Penetrations to Prevent Core Rot Photo Gallery by Compass Marine under the West site material.

I see it is teak and epoxy might not be best so bung or bung with different wood and the added info on coring out holes, filling with heavy epoxy and proceeding as if new, using countersink and so on.

Interesting problem.*


----------



## WDS123

Ms,

You may want to use a impervious material as a bung ins read of teak


----------



## BobBill

*Butyl In Smaller Rolls*

*I am restoring a small Kite Class dinghy and would like to buy a smaller qty of the product sold by Main Sail-CS-36T, if anyone would like to work it out...*


----------



## Maine Sail

msulc said:


> I was trying to bed my chainplates with Butyl Tape on a teak deck. I think over time bigger and bigger screws have been used and the screw in their right now is as big as it can get. A couple of the screws now turn in place and it is hard to get enough pressure on the chainplate to get the butyl tape to press down firmly. Could I just drill an oversized hole where the screws go in, fill it with epoxy, and then screw down the chainplates? Or should I replace the stripped area with another teak bung?


The density of butyl makes it ideally suited to be under compression. Screws into wood or cored decks will have a tough time compressing it and not stripping. You can use screws but just don't use them for the compression and instead compress the fitting by hand and with body weight then simply use the screws to hold the cover plate or deck seal in place. Ideally it is best to through bolt chain plate covers but on many designs this i just not possible. If you can back fill with thickened epoxy and tap then you should be better but screwing only into the teak is going to be weaker by design anyway.


----------



## sandycohen

Maine Sail - Howdy - I just placed an order for your butyl tape - look forward to receiving!

Meanwhile, I've bedded a couple of items in 3m 2880 mastic tape. I know it's butyl tape from reading the msds. Have you evaluated it in the spectrum of tapes (none of which are substitutes for bed-it, i understand) and have any suggestion on whether it needs to be removed or can stand?


----------



## Maine Sail

sandycohen said:


> Maine Sail - Howdy - I just placed an order for your butyl tape - look forward to receiving!
> 
> Meanwhile, I've bedded a couple of items in 3m 2880 mastic tape. I know it's butyl tape from reading the msds. Have you evaluated it in the spectrum of tapes (none of which are substitutes for bed-it, i understand) and have any suggestion on whether it needs to be removed or can stand?


You have a rubber self fusing tape that is VERY different from butyl tape. I would not use it for bedding deck hardware. Essentially that tape is very similar to self fusing rigging tape and works well for sealing electrical connections but is not at all well suited for sealing deck hardware. Your tape will go out in the morning and you'll see what I am trying to explain..


----------



## sandycohen

Hmmm...I thought I read on one of these threads that a mastic tape with 
Polyisobutylene or Polybutylene was the ticket, so when I saw that on 3m's site thought i was home free.

It is wound on wax tape also, which seemed to be one of the other things to look for.

It is nothing like rigging tape though, which makes me wonder if we are talking about the same thing? It basically forms a pliable gasket material that is self-fusing - would be a mess as rigging tape.
Good thing I didn't go to far with.


----------



## downeast450

I just finished my deck work for the season. A little later than I intended. I used Bed-it on all fastenings thru the fg deck. Great stuff to work with as well good at its job. No mess!!! Forgiving!!! Easy to control!!! Good stuff!

Down


----------



## leogallant

*Awesome!*

Thanks for this, restoring a 1973 Newport and this bedding knowledge is valuable!


----------



## OPossumTX

I am working on a much abused Galilee 15 and needed this badly. Thanks!
O'


----------



## heyross

*Using Butyl Tape*

Call me old fashioned but I have always used a tap to put in a thread that suits the bolt that is to go through the deck. This has served several functions over the years. If a nut has fallen off due to vibration the bolt is still working on the threaded fibreglass. Also many of the whole were waterproof prior to adding any sealant what so ever. In the days of silicon sealants, I only required a smidgeon to obtain a water-proof seal. Also if I had to remove a fitting I can do it by myself as the bolt is bedded into the fibreglass and the nut is an added extra bit of security. Generally the nut screws off without a screwdriver holding the head of the bolr above decks. No more tempers being frayed yelling to my wife to move the spanner below while I use the screw driver above the deck. Gone are the days of "No not that bolt, the next one!" when undoing the jib track nuts. Hope this makes sense.

Is this overkill when bedding deck fittings using butal? Are there any legit reasons other than saving time (not that tapping a thread takes a great deal of time) not to tap the hole first and then use butal to obtain a waterproof finish?


----------



## Morrisrules

*Bedding deck hardware with butyl tape*

I'm a lead carpenter at Morris Yachts and would like to make sure we're clear on one of the points made in this article: although we do use the countersunk hole method when bedding all exterior fixtures, we have never used any type of butyl tape as permanent bedding for any pupose whatsoever, deck hardware or otherwise. All deck hardware on all Morris Yachts is bedded in 3M 4000 because it is UV resistant and removable if need be. Wooden brightwork items such as toerails, coaming caps, dorade boxes and wooden handrails are bedded in Sikaflex because it bonds better with wood than 4000.

I do realize that the article never states that we bed deck hardware with butyl tape at Morris; I just want to point this out to avoid any possible confusion.

Thank you for an excellent article and for giving credit to the true professional boatbuilding companies that care enough about their boats and appreciate their customers enough to always go the extra mile.


----------



## Maine Sail

Morrisrules said:


> I'm a lead carpenter at Morris Yachts and would like to make sure we're clear on one of the points made in this article: although we do use the countersunk hole method when bedding all exterior fixtures, we have never used any type of butyl tape as permanent bedding for any pupose whatsoever, deck hardware or otherwise. All deck hardware on all Morris Yachts is bedded in 3M 4000 because it is UV resistant and removable if need be. Wooden brightwork items such as toerails, coaming caps, dorade boxes and wooden handrails are bedded in Sikaflex because it bonds better with wood than 4000.
> 
> I do realize that the article never states that we bed deck hardware with butyl tape at Morris; I just want to point this out to avoid any possible confusion.


This is why I was clear to not say that you guys used butyl. Just making the point of how critical the countersinking is and that most TOP QUALITY builders like Morris take the extra step to do it right.. Heck with proper countersinking Silly Putty might bed deck hardware....



Morrisrules said:


> Thank you for an excellent article and for giving credit to the true professional boatbuilding companies that care enough about their boats and appreciate their customers enough to always go the extra mile.


And you guys certainly do go the extra mile!! There are sooo many hidden "details" in a Morris that a customer will never see yet you guys still don't skimp or cut corners.

Have you guys tried Sika 295UV? It is a nice low adhesion PU sealant that is more easily removed than UV4000 and seems to yellow less for me than UV 4000? Would be interested in your thoughts.

Oh and butyl is also very UV resistant, the butyl on our 1979 CS-36 is 32 years old and still just as it was then, and it is actually more easily removable than UV 4000.. Of course it is more labor intensive in your environment than tube caulks..

Oh and I like the user name. Morris does rule...

P.S. Please don't refer to yourself as a "carpenter" you are a true craftsman and artist. I hire a carpenter to build a deck..


----------



## WDS123

shipwright


----------



## Maine Sail

WDSchock said:


> shipwright


Shipwright is also good but I've seen these guys work and I still prefer "artist"..


----------



## WDS123

It is difficult to express in a job title the subtle and complex nature of the craftsmanship of a ships carpenter. 

Unless one has tried it with one's own hands.......


----------



## Maine Sail

WDSchock said:


> It is difficult to express in a job title the subtle and complex nature of the craftsmanship of a ships carpenter.
> 
> Unless one has tried it with one's own hands.......


Amen to that!


----------



## Morrisrules

*Bedding deck hardware with butyl tape*

In reply to Main Sail:

We do use Sika 295UV at Morris, primarily in applications where installation calls for a larger, "beauty-bead" type backfill. Certain window and portlight installations, for example.

Thanks again.


----------



## littlelizzy

Well done! I am about to embark on much of this work and am glad to see this posting.


----------



## TakeFive

My boat has a transom mounted rudder with pintles and gudgeons. I will be replacing the gudgeons this winter due to some wear-induced damage on one of them. I looks like the OEM installation actually used a rubber or vinyl gasket material.

For my replacement, would butyl tape be an appropriate sealant, or should I use a curing sealant. If so, what type of sealant would you recommend?


----------



## TakeFive

RhythmDoctor said:


> My boat has a transom mounted rudder with pintles and gudgeons. I will be replacing the gudgeons this winter due to some wear-induced damage on one of them. I looks like the OEM installation actually used a rubber or vinyl gasket material.
> 
> For my replacement, would butyl tape be an appropriate sealant, or should I use a curing sealant. If so, what type of sealant would you recommend?


Any answers to my questions?


----------



## LandLocked66c

I used butyl tape on my gudgeons.


----------



## mitiempo

Butyl is fine if they are above the waterline. I would use Sika 291 or 4200 if below the waterline.


----------



## TakeFive

Thanks for the advice. If the gudgeons are below the waterline, then I have bigger problems than my rudder! :laugher


----------



## mitiempo

The lower gudgeon is below the waterline on many boats - mine included.


----------



## TakeFive

mitiempo said:


> The lower gudgeon is below the waterline on many boats - mine included.


I was just joking, but thanks for your comment. Although both of my gudgeons are above the waterline at rest, a full cockpit in following seas may cause the lower gudgeon to be submerged, or at least deluged by waves. In light of this, I'll go with a curing sealant instead.


----------



## SkywalkerII

*Chainplates*

I'm rebedding everything on my Tartan 27 as part of a total restoration of the deck, including partial recore. The area around my chainplates was recored. I isolated the area directly around the plates with thickened epoxy to form a block to protect the new core.

I'm thinking about how to re seal the chainplates. My T27 chainplates emerge through the deck without a plate screwed to the deck. If I use butyl tape, do I need a plate to form mechanical pressure?

Thanks

Skywalker
T27 # 249


----------



## mitiempo

Butyl does need to be in compression to be effective.

A good idea would be to form a glass riser where the chainplate emerges through the deck - it will avoid water pooling around the chainplate. You can put a plate on if you wish. The link below explains - scroll down a bit.

Maintenance Log for Syzygy


----------



## SkywalkerII

Thanks for the help. The Tartan has an elevated section where the chainplates emerge already.

Nice link.

Skywalker
T 27 #249


----------



## davidpm

mitiempo said:


> Butyl does need to be in compression to be effective.
> 
> A good idea would be to form a glass riser where the chainplate emerges through the deck - it will avoid water pooling around the chainplate. You can put a plate on if you wish. The link below explains - scroll down a bit.
> 
> Maintenance Log for Syzygy


Without a plate added to the design of the picture above do you think it will hold well. Seems like the space around the chain plate filled with butyl will get embedded with dirt.
Also without the plate where is the compression coming from?


----------



## mitiempo

David

I guess you didn't go to the link I provided. Here are 2 later pictures.


----------



## davidpm

You are right I didn't follow the link.
Glad I did this time. A lot of great pictures. Thanks!

What confused me was the comment that the plate could be added if he wished.
It looks like it is pretty much required if butyl is to work properly.

Do you agree or am I reading too much into it?


----------



## mitiempo

David

I think you could add a plate without the raised portion and it would work well. The pics show the same thing I did as it avoids the chainplate exit sitting in a puddle. It lessens the chance of a leak even further.


----------



## davidpm

Sounds good.
The plates on some boats I've seen were just stamped sheet metal. The ones in the picture looked like solid stainless.
Were they made with official machine shop tools, milling machine etc or do you have some way to make them with lower end tools?


----------



## mitiempo

My plates are thicker as well. Any shop that works with stainless can cut them out for you. Stainless isn't that hard to drill but machining a slot is beyond basic tools.


----------



## davidpm

mitiempo said:


> My plates are thicker as well. Any shop that works with stainless can cut them out for you. Stainless isn't that hard to drill but machining a slot is beyond basic tools.


That's what I thought.
Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some cool home-brew trick.


----------



## mitiempo

Not unless you have a plasma cutter....


----------



## davidpm

mitiempo said:


> Not unless you have a plasma cutter....


It has been a few decades since I've looked at that kind of equipment so I Googled it and found this:

Amazon.com: LTP5000D 50A Air Inverter Pilot Arc Plasma Cutter Dual Voltage 110/220VAC 1/2" clean Cut: Power & Hand Tools

It's looking like a plasma cutter is actually affordable for a home shop.

Not sure it would be the right tool to cut an accurate slot.
Probably a milling machine would be better.

Sure is need little box for 500 bucks though


----------



## casey1999

davidpm said:


> It has been a few decades since I've looked at that kind of equipment so I Googled it and found this:
> 
> Amazon.com: LTP5000D 50A Air Inverter Pilot Arc Plasma Cutter Dual Voltage 110/220VAC 1/2" clean Cut: Power & Hand Tools
> 
> It's looking like a plasma cutter is actually affordable for a home shop.
> 
> Not sure it would be the right tool to cut an accurate slot.
> Probably a milling machine would be better.
> 
> Sure is need little box for 500 bucks though


I wonder if the heat would change metalurgy and cause stainless to corrode faster? Maybe use a water jet cutter- that is what is typically used on thick steel plates.


----------



## mitiempo

David

A milling machine would probably do a better job, but someone skilled and with a good plasma cutter can do a good job.


----------



## Southcoasting

Hi Maine,
I ordered your tape and got it within 2 days...Thanks for the super fast shipping!

Have a main question before doing the re-bedding of my deck hardware...

On Pg 3 of your instructions under the "After Tightening" section, you mention in Step 2 to only tighten once...

Well, I'm a bit confused because you mention early on on pg 2 under the "Clean Up Butyl Ooze" section you mention to take your time in tightening and to tighten in a "2-Step" process...

I am assuming your instructions are based on whether you're bedding a stanchion or deck cleat versus a single screw through the deck, and that is the difference in tightening techniques you recommend using with butyl tape? Is this assumption correct?


----------



## Maine Sail

Southcoasting said:


> Hi Maine,
> I ordered your tape and got it within 2 days...Thanks for the super fast shipping!
> 
> Have a main question before doing the re-bedding of my deck hardware...
> 
> On Pg 3 of your instructions under the "After Tightening" section, you mention in Step 2 to only tighten once...
> 
> Well, I'm a bit confused because you mention early on on pg 2 under the "Clean Up Butyl Ooze" section you mention to take your time in tightening and to tighten in a "2-Step" process...
> 
> I am assuming your instructions are based on whether you're bedding a stanchion or deck cleat versus a single screw through the deck, and that is the difference in tightening techniques you recommend using with butyl tape? Is this assumption correct?


Tighten once is only a description differentiating between letting a "marine sealant" cure then tightening it it two steps, pre-cure and post cure. Butyl does not change or cure so you can only tighten it in the same single state hence "tighten once" vs. the two step method..

Tighten once also refers to using the countersink method with a marine sealant, not just butyl, where you'd only tighten once to full tight then let it cure.

You really do want to tighten it in small increments when using butyl and you'll get a much better outcome. You are not however waiting for it to cure so you can tighten it a second time. Just wait for some to squish out then tighten a little more..

Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Cherp

Maine....I have been using your wonderful instructions on my deck hardware in Tasmania Australia. Love it. I have some black butyl which is sort of like tape but thicker. It,s mildly sticky but you can work it well with your hands. It's black and I am getting a bit os stick from herself that I should ne using white. Does butyl come in white...dunno. I'll google it. Meanwhile, can you make an exception and send me some of your tape. I won't be wounded if you can't. Anyway, fabulous information from this thread.


----------



## Maine Sail

Cherp said:


> Does butyl come in white...dunno. I'll google it. Meanwhile, can you make an exception and send me some of your tape. I won't be wounded if you can't. Anyway, fabulous information from this thread.


Butyl does come in white but is not the same quality as the filers needed to make it white change the consistency some.


----------



## sproption

*Wow.*

I just rebedded my hardware last summer. I agree...stay away from black butyl type.

I wish I had referred to this article before I did my rebed job. Thanks for the great work.


----------



## kleinlax

*Butyl Tape*

Looking for a way to seal my windows on a Beneteau First 35S5, could this be used for window bedding?

Thanks

GOM cruising


----------



## CorvetteGuy

I bedded the windows in a shark with it last year, there was also a rubber seal that slips into the metal frame. the tape worked great as it held the plexi in place while installing the rubber gasket.


----------



## Maine Sail

kleinlax said:


> Looking for a way to seal my windows on a Beneteau First 35S5, could this be used for window bedding?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> GOM cruising


We'd need to know more about the ports... Frame, frame-less, acrylic dead lights? A photo would help..


----------



## gveto

*Catalina 34 new chain plate design*

Great documentation on all your work.
I recently made new chain plates for my Catalina34 and I have a short video which shows why I did it and it shows the new design. Just for your interest.

Go To YouTube link:

Catalina 34 and 36 new chain plate design - YouTube

Thanks


----------



## tominny

Butyl tape afficinados,

In what temperature range can butyl tape be applied to bed deck hardware and port lights? Since there doesn't seem to be any cure time, can I apply it at 32 degrees? Will expansion in the summer be a problem?

Or should I wait until April? ;-)
Thanks


----------



## Mark Johnson

Hi all,
I may have been the first experimenter to try Butyl tape in the 70s, (on my first of several cruising boat projects)...


I financed this project by working as the service manager (for 3 states) in my dad's Pella window dealership. As such, I had dozens of rolls of the stuff laying around, so used it to bed many ports, deck ports & vents on the boat. Here are the caveats... 

It sticks like crazy, FOREVER, and does NOT release. With window glass in a metal frame, (if a window got broken}, we'd use red hot putty knives to cut through the sticky tape. IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO DO IT! Every 5 seconds, I'd put the putty knife back under the torch's flame, to keep the blade red hot. 

So, if you have to remove something made of plastic, on fiberglas, (= "fiberglass reinforced plastic"), then you may melt one of these surfaces, in removal. SO GO FAST! Also, it never sets up, but stays the consistency of bubble gum. On a hot summer day, & especially on a horizontal surface, it compresses more with heat, and oozes out of the edge more. If you wipe off or wash the surface, this ooze smears all over the boat, and requires mineral spirits and elbow grease to remove. I regretted having used it!

If you use it, I would use it as a seal & spacer, but, given room, I'd put it well inboard of the hardware edges or flange edges. On the very edge, I'd still run a small bead of caulk around the perimiter, (which does set up), and you won't have this problem. The difficulty of removal, however, remains. On very small pieces it is not an issue, but on large deck plates it is!

Mark AKA, Delphys Marine


----------



## TakeFive

Mark Johnson said:


> ...Also, it never sets up, but stays the consistency of bubble gum. On a hot summer day, & especially on a horizontal surface, it compresses more with heat, and oozes out of the edge more....


There are many different manufacturers of butyl tape, and they can have a wide range of consistencies. Intuitively, I believe that one of the key parameters is the level of crosslinking in the rubber, which anyone with knowledge of adhesive chemistry recognizes as a tradeoff between adhesive strength vs. cohesive strength. (Higher crosslinking increases cohesive strength at the expense of adhesive strength.) The optimum balance of properties can be different for various applications and environments.

I have used two different kinds of butyl tape. The first type (which I bought at an RV store) fits your description: it sticks like crazy but oozes more (especially when hot) and yields at a lower elongational stress. I wasn't totally happy with this for marine bedding, so I bought some of Maine Sail's, which has a little less adhesive tackiness but oozes much less and has a huge elongational yield prior to failure (check his website for a video that demonstrates this). I believe that it has a higher level of crosslinking, and is more suited to the environmental factors and compressive stresses of marine applications.

It is important to choose the right butyl tape, and Maine Sail's seems to strike the right balance.


----------



## therapy23

RhythmDoctor said:


> It is important to choose the right butyl tape, and Maine Sail's seems to strike the right balance.


Agreed.

After trying the RV stuff and the "real stuff" there is a world of difference.


----------



## SHNOOL

Ok, so I have to report back.. This tape is awesome! I've yet to use it for my boat, but then, I'ved used it on my Living Quarters Horse trailer, in a bunch of places.

Very elastic, easy to manipulate, and a best choice for waterproofing.


----------



## mitiempo

You live in a horse trailer?


----------



## Skipper Joe

Great post! I have been using butyl to bed hardware. Nothing leaks, ever. One thing I have noticed is that after you clean off the excess, in a few days there is more excess forever squeezing out. In one application I went back everyday for several weeks and cut off little gray sticky worms of the stuff. Am I using too much? Is there a trick I am missing?


----------



## stevensuf

plus one on butyl tape for bedding and all sorts, re bedded grab rails and used to replace a gasket in a leaking hatch, works a treat!


----------



## efhughes3

Wow, one of the most valuable threads I've seen...thanks ms! 2 rolls ordered today.


----------



## casey1999

Can Butyl tape be used below the water line for thru hull fittings?


----------



## mitiempo

No, underwater I would use 4200 or Sika 291.


----------



## therapy23

casey1999 said:


> Can Butyl tape be used below the water line for thru hull fittings?


Never.


----------



## Waltthesalt

FYI
I have some wet core. Turns out that a previous owner put in a track for a jib lead inside the stays, ok so far. What they did however was to bend the track as it was bolted in so that followed the cabin trunk. The continual stress of the track trying to straighten caused the leaks. Had they properly sealed the core that may have not caused a problem, but then again the stress could have cracked the epoxy or squeezed out the sealant nonetheless.


----------



## skygazer

Does anyone have a suggested product to seal the cabin top wooden companionway tracks where the top pieces slide in? It is screwed, not bolted, with no access due to inner liner. So after sealing the screw must be turned. I do want to be able to remove it and rebed when necessary.

For Mainesail, wow, super informative post!


----------



## tominny

I rebedded my non-opening portlights with white butyl tape and cut off the excess butyl with a razor blade. The butyl gasket is flush and visible. 

I am afraid it may attract dirt over time and was wondering if there is anything that can be done about this? Perhaps put a layer of another curing sealant on there?


----------



## trk2

Hello everyone. The quality of information in this thread caused me to register on Sailnet. Many thanks.

I am seeking confirmation that "Duct Seal" sometimes known as "Duct Seal Putty" is the same material as butyl tape but has the advantage of being more readily available for purchase and economical. Some of you may be familiar with duct seal as it often used to seal around electrical service entrance cables where they enter the meter housing.

I've used both butyl tape and duct seal in the past and they seem identical. The MSDS for duct seal lists the chemical family as "butyl rubber composite" which sounds promising?


----------



## therapy23

trk2 said:


> Hello everyone. The quality of information in this thread caused me to register on Sailnet. Many thanks.
> 
> I am seeking confirmation that "Duct Seal" sometimes known as "Duct Seal Putty" is the same material as butyl tape but has the advantage of being more readily available for purchase and economical. Some of you may be familiar with duct seal as it often used to seal around electrical service entrance cables where they enter the meter housing.
> 
> I've used both butyl tape and duct seal in the past and they seem identical. The MSDS for duct seal lists the chemical family as "butyl rubber composite" which sounds promising?


I'll just let MainSail test it and buy whatever he sells.

It may cost me a couple of bucks but it is pretty small potatoes and I want him to continue to do as he does.


----------



## Maine Sail

trk2 said:


> Hello everyone. The quality of information in this thread caused me to register on Sailnet. Many thanks.
> 
> I am seeking confirmation that "Duct Seal" sometimes known as "Duct Seal Putty" is the same material as butyl tape but has the advantage of being more readily available for purchase and economical. Some of you may be familiar with duct seal as it often used to seal around electrical service entrance cables where they enter the meter housing.
> 
> I've used both butyl tape and duct seal in the past and they seem identical. The MSDS for duct seal lists the chemical family as "butyl rubber composite" which sounds promising?


Just like with polyurethane sealants there are many differing grades and compositions and some are more suitable than others to marine applications. Duct Seal is not the same as Bed-It Tape. Could it work? Sure, but having tested over 40+ products sold as "butyl tape" I can assure you the variances are far and wide. Some of these tapes are sold for less than 1/3 what I pay direct from the manufacturer.. "Fillers", recycled content", "solvents" and all sorts of other things can be added to the product to make it less costly, but they don't make it better...


----------



## SchockT

mitiempo said:


> In my area (Victoria) there is no problem finding gray butyl in hardware stores at $5 or so a roll.


I know this is an old post, but is there a specific brand that you find better than others?


----------



## thof

SchockT said:


> I know this is an old post, but is there a specific brand that you find better than others?


I believe he included a link to a product at the end of the post. I would copy/paste it but am still new here and not sure of all link policies. but have a look


----------



## mitiempo

We have an old fashioned hardware store in Victoria. No label - just in a roll with wax paper on one side.

The best place to buy guaranteed good butyl is here:Need Butyl Tape ?? Photo Gallery by Compass Marine at pbase.com


----------



## SVTatia

I will be bedding the wooden grab rails with Butyl from Maine Sail and this will be coated with Cetol. 

My question is: Could Cetol harm the butyl? I am sure I will be recoating the wooden pieces many times over the years, and during recoat, some of the Cetol could go in the Butyl. I am wondering if whatever is in the product could slowly cause the Butyl to decay.

Thanks


----------



## DryRed

I have one question, I'm esealing around my chain plates. I want to pour thinkened epoxy around the chain plate to seal the balsa and ensure no water get in. I also want to leave a uniform gap between the hardened epoxy and the chain plate so that I can seal it. Could I install the chain plate wrap the chain plate with butyl tape then pour the thickened epoxy around the butyl tape so that once it hardens the butyl tape will be sealed against the chainplate?


----------



## casey1999

[email protected] said:


> I have one question, I'm esealing around my chain plates. I want to pour thinkened epoxy around the chain plate to seal the balsa and ensure no water get in. I also want to leave a uniform gap between the hardened epoxy and the chain plate so that I can seal it. Could I install the chain plate wrap the chain plate with butyl tape then pour the thickened epoxy around the butyl tape so that once it hardens the butyl tape will be sealed against the chainplate?


I'll let someone else answer, but you might want to change your name so you don't get spammed.


----------



## Palmetto97

Like others came across this post when looking for answers on how to deal with my leaky chain plates. While removing the chainplates was a bear as the manufacturer had used 5200, following the demo made me feel confident that it will be a once and done repair.


----------



## Maine Sail

DryRed said:


> I have one question, I'm esealing around my chain plates. I want to pour thinkened epoxy around the chain plate to seal the balsa and ensure no water get in. I also want to leave a uniform gap between the hardened epoxy and the chain plate so that I can seal it. Could I install the chain plate wrap the chain plate with butyl tape then pour the thickened epoxy around the butyl tape so that once it hardens the butyl tape will be sealed against the chainplate?


I generally prefer to wrap with packaging tape or electrical tape. The heat of the epoxy cure may soften the butyl. Electrical tale works well.... Butyl works in compression so even after the pour you'd need to re-bed. If potting the core put a slight chamfer in the deck hole around the chain plate.


----------



## cnoyes1001

Great information! I concure with countersinking. I want to order some Bed-it tape but I live in Hawaii. If anyone knows where it is avaliable locally please let me know.
Thanks,
Charlie


----------



## bandaidmd

RV repair/supply shops have a similar product but may be of a bit lesser quality.Butyl tape is used extensively on RV's.


----------



## SkywalkerII

Well, read everyone's thoughts and decided to bed the 4 portlights on my Tartan 27 with butyl tape. Cleaned up the aluminum frames, bought new lexan, and off I went.

80 some degree day, so the butyl was pretty soft. 

Now I know why manufacturers stopped using it. It is simple but labor intensive. Smearing this stuff on the surface takes a while and some effort. Then tightening down the screws slowly to squeeze out the excess takes some time. Once tightened, trimming the xcess is a piece of cake. 

After using 4200, life caulk or whatever, I'm now a fan apof butyl!

That's if these babies don't leak!


----------



## casey1999

cnoyes1001 said:


> Great information! I concure with countersinking. I want to order some Bed-it tape but I live in Hawaii. If anyone knows where it is avaliable locally please let me know.
> Thanks,
> Charlie


I am also in Hawaii and order the tape from Maine Sail- he can ship flat rate USPS box so not expensive (and you know it will be good stuff). Not sure where to buy here in hawaii (no recreational vehicles here like you would see on mainland), just easier to get from Maine Sail.
Regards


----------



## i_amcdn

My supply is on its way so I am looking forward to tackling the cleat, stanchion and two windows that are leaking. Once I am proficient and leak proof with those I will reseat the other deck hardware.

When doing the windows I will carefully countersink into the fibreglass as it is not that thick. (see interior shot looking out) 

I will also place a bead of the butyl all around the window opening before placing the window.

Do I also create a countersink the holes in the plexi? Right now the screws go through a ring.

Thanks


----------



## skygazer

i_amcdn said:


> Do I also create a countersink the holes in the plexi? Right now the screws go through a ring.
> 
> Thanks


I'm no expert, but I know plastic has a large amount of expansion and contraction. I would say that the countersink (fantastic idea I must say) in the fiberglass will stop water from coming inside.

Countersinking the Plexiglas might help increase the likelihood of cracking, the biggest problem with Plexiglas. I'd make the holes in the Plexiglas slightly oversize to allow for the stresses of expansion/contraction, and rely on the fiberglass to keep the water out.

By "rings" do you mean some sort of finishing washer? That would seem like a decent idea to spread the pressure out across a larger area and help reduce cracking. I'm currently working on a Hunter 23 with Plexiglas simply screwed on, no outer perimeter trim or washers. Most of the screws have Plexiglas cracks around them, though surprisingly only one crack leaks.


----------



## i_amcdn

Correct...finishing washer


----------



## rackham the red

Thank you very much for taking time to explain this so anyone could make this repair!
Well done and very generous to take time to teach all of us who did not know!

Rochelle


----------



## Maine Sail

chrisncate said:


> It's the exact same thing.


Actually it's not the same.. There are vast quality & consistency differences in butyl tapes just as there are in polyurethane sealants..

This is from a guy who bought RV tape at an RV store then bought Bed-It Tape..

_*"Hello RC,

Got the butyl rubber in time. Thanks for making the special trip!

Not that I didn't believe you, but I wanted to check out the two tapes myself. They are two totally different materials. I will be tossing the butyl rubber I bought previously. If you'll excuse the lousy video, I think you'll spot your tape.


https://picasaweb.google.com/rmcgil...key=Gv1sRgCLDbjJn1-5mVmQE#5606294158195187106

Thanks for the great product and for your technical tips.

Have a great weekend.

Bob*_"


----------



## WildJasmine

chrisncate said:


> I hear you MS, but when you have the right stuff (actual grey butyl- not one of the other variations - I am completely aware of the variants that sit on the same shelf as butyl), it is the same. I have held both your butyl and "mine" in my hands and compared the two, and what I buy is 100% identical.
> 
> If it isn't identical, it's probably not actually labeled as grey butyl - it's probably one of the similar variants that sits on the same shelf. A lot of people don't know what they are actually looking at when shopping for butyl for the first time.
> 
> Fwiw


Yeah, I have bought it from rv supply stores and mobile home parts manufacturers. Typically these stores have 4 to 5 different kinds of grey butyl tape on their shelves. Each good for different applications.

I personally like the kind that can stretch and has the consistency of chewed gum. Some grey butyl tape is more like a playdoh-ish consistency and doesn't stretch well.

Like he said if you get the right stuff its all the same. I buy mine for under $6 for a 30 foot roll.

I personally will never go back to curing sealants.


----------



## sweetsailing

MS or others, 

I read this entire thread and MS's instructions and I am not certain this question was ever fully answered. I am looking to rebed hardware (stanchions, cleats, etc) on a teak caprail. I intend to strip the old varnish/cetol off and bring the teak back down to bare wood. (needs to be refinished anyway) I like the idea of using Butyl tape. Can I use Butyl tape on teak? Am I better off rebedding the hardware with Butyl tape onto bare wood and then apply cetol? Or should I apply cetol first and then rebed with Butyl tape?

Thanks


----------



## meljabro3

We just bought 2 rolls! thanks for inspiring my wife to get started in the re-fit of our boat!

What would you suggest when re-bedding lexan windows?


----------



## Maine Sail

meljabro3 said:


> We just bought 2 rolls! thanks for inspiring my wife to get started in the re-fit of our boat!
> 
> What would you suggest when re-bedding lexan windows?


If not through bolted butyl used as a shim the Dow 795 or Sika 295UV (with special primer) used as the "bond". I run butyl around the inside edge and the sealant the outer edge. The butyl makes a perfect shim for the sealant and also acts as a back up seal..


----------



## i_amcdn

Still waiting for my new windows. Like meljabro describes below "are lexan plastic bolted over cutouts. There aren't any frames or anything, just the lexan".

They are thru bolted with barrel nuts likes these:
Beckson Barrel Nut

1. I was going to just use the butyl tape. Do I need to use a 2nd sealant as well?
2. are there better screws than the barrel nuts that I should use? Should I use bolts with nuts and washers instead? There is not a lot of room on the inside for large washers. Too large and the washer would extend into the window cutout area.

Thanks.


----------



## meljabro3

Maine Sail said:


> If not through bolted butyl used as a shim the Dow 795 or Sika 295UV (with special primer) used as the "bond". I run butyl around the inside edge and the sealant the outer edge. The butyl makes a perfect shim for the sealant and also acts as a back up seal..


Actually I'm thinking that they're called deadlights? I'm not sure though.
My windows are lexan plastic bolted over cutouts. There aren't any frames or anything, just the lexan


----------



## i_amcdn

Pics of my Edel 22 window cutouts after lexan was pried off.

You can see that the bottom holes were drilled a tad too close to the edge.

I should probably have ordered the new ones non-drilled and created new holes in new locations but the new lexan is coming drilled with the same holes as the old ones.

Do I need sealant in addition to the butyl tape?

Thanks


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

Thanks for all the info in this thread. I recently removed teak handrails to refinish and rebed. I was deciding on whether to use butyl or lifecaulk for rebeding. Looks like I might go with the butyl. Lots of good info here.
Thanks again.


----------



## sailortrash

thanks have a rebedding project coming and i will use this info


----------



## dsmauney

I am very interested in the advice on resealing fixed ports that are attached with screws all around with no frame. Can I just use butyl or do I need to us it in combination a sealant?
Thanks
DaveM


----------



## mitiempo

dsmauney said:


> I am very interested in the advice on resealing fixed ports that are attached with screws all around with no frame. Can I just use butyl or do I need to us it in combination a sealant?
> Thanks
> DaveM


Do you mean they are just plexiglass or lexan without frames? If so I would use an adhesive like Dow 795.


----------



## dsmauney

Yes Mitiempo that is common for fixed lights with O'Day.


----------



## stiffwind

What modifications in this procedure would be recommended if I was mounting a small clete in the cockpit on a piece of mahogany that would be attached to the cockpit combing. Would you still recommend using butyl tape between the wood piece and the fiberglass combing. In other words, I want to mount a small clete to terminate a furling line, but I want it elevated about an inch above the combing for ease of use. So I made a small round piece of mahogany which I will epoxy clear and varnish just big enough to firmly mount the small clete. Then I simply planned to use four mounting bolts and drill through the wood and fiberglass to a backing plate or 4 washers so the clete, wood and fiberglass is all bolted together. Any other suggestions?


----------



## Martin Basch

I have stanchions that are held down with screws, not thru bolted. Can butyl tape still be used?


----------



## skygazer

martin basch said:


> i have stanchions that are held down with screws, not thru bolted. Can butyl tape still be used?


+1


----------



## asdf38

Martin Basch said:


> I have stanchions that are held down with screws, not thru bolted. Can butyl tape still be used?


The only real condition necessary for butyl tape is that something else is fastening the pieces together - buyl is sticky but not an adhesive. In this case you have that with the screws so I think that will work...as long as you trust the screws. That's not considered a very robust method for fastening stanchions.


----------



## asdf38

dsmauney said:


> I am very interested in the advice on resealing fixed ports that are attached with screws all around with no frame. Can I just use butyl or do I need to us it in combination a sealant?
> Thanks
> DaveM


Like I said above, so long as the screws are adequately fastening the ports I'd think butyl is perfect.

EDIT: Maine Sail and chrisncate said the same thing a page back as well.


----------



## melody1204

This was a great post - nice photos and lots of detail. Thanks for taking the time to share!


----------



## JHuberman

I installed my deck hardware 7 years ago, and no leaks as of yet!
I have a foam cored deck, and dug out the foam core around the fitting holes using an allen wrench. First I drilled the hole through the top deck layer and through the foam, but not through the inner fiberglass layer. Previously I prepared my reaming out tool - an allen key - I sharpened the short end into a knife and put the long end in a drill. Then I inserted the knife end into the hole and ran the drill. Bits of foam came out the hole. I vacuumed the bits out of the hole and filled it with epoxy. After it set I re-drilled the fitting hole all the way through. Now I can't crush the deck and if the fitting leaks it doesn't penetrate into the foam. I used life-calk on the threads and under the fittings. I tightened once and have had no leaks at all on the hundreds of holes needed to set all the fittings.


----------



## i_amcdn

Mr. Maine....
Fall temps are setting in and I am still waiting for my new plexi windows for my Edel 665. Hopefully they will be here for this weekend. (free so I cannot whine too much)
How cold can it be and still be ok to use butyl tape to seal these windows?
Thanks


----------



## SailingSloop

Wow, excellent post! I've struggled with bedding hardware for years. Currently, my lifeline stantions are bedded with WEST, but I like your butyl idea better. Great use of clear lexan to show the effectiveness.


----------



## Dubbinchris

This is def a great thread. 

I just purchased a roll of butyl tape from a local RV store for around $6.50. 3/4" x 30' roll


----------



## xymotic

What's the deal with black!???

last summer I re-bedded a newfound metals portlight that the previous owner had bought but not finished installing. I used almost 1/2" thick round black butyl rubber that he'd also purchased from them.

I missed a spot and did a craptacular job securing the port so it leaked a little bit.

So I spent an entire day pulling it off the other day. Some of it came off well, some of it pulled paint and primer off the steel, and some of it is fantastically stuck on there in tiny bits I can't ever seem to get off. If I make a ball and roll it it 'sorta' works till my fingers stick together and make and unholy mess.

I tried turpentine and Acetone, neither seem to do much of anything. It's fairly cool/cold now, would it be easier in warmer weather?

Is black always so messy? Is the grey stuff better? (I used some flatter gray stuff I bought at camping world on a different hatch the black is WAY stickier so is the grey stuff inferior?)


----------



## therapy23

Dubbinchris said:


> This is def a great thread.
> 
> I just purchased a roll of butyl tape from a local RV store for around $6.50. 3/4" x 30' roll


You may find that you get what you pay for..................

As mentioned (and shown) in the thread.


----------



## Maine Sail

xymotic said:


> What's the deal with black!???
> 
> last summer I re-bedded a newfound metals portlight that the previous owner had bought but not finished installing. I used almost 1/2" thick round black butyl rubber that he'd also purchased from them.
> 
> I missed a spot and did a craptacular job securing the port so it leaked a little bit.
> 
> So I spent an entire day pulling it off the other day. Some of it came off well, some of it pulled paint and primer off the steel, and some of it is fantastically stuck on there in tiny bits I can't ever seem to get off. If I make a ball and roll it it 'sorta' works till my fingers stick together and make and unholy mess.
> 
> I tried turpentine and Acetone, neither seem to do much of anything. It's fairly cool/cold now, would it be easier in warmer weather?
> 
> Is black always so messy? Is the grey stuff better? (I used some flatter gray stuff I bought at camping world on a different hatch the black is WAY stickier so is the grey stuff inferior?)


There are literally hundreds of formulations & products sold as "butyl tape". The majority of it is simply unsuitable for deck hardware sealing.

Some of the black is very good quality but a lot messier than is necessary. I will no longer use black and I would not sell it either.

I used the NFM black stuff when I did my ports and only wish I had Bed-It Butyl tape back then.. Lots of the grays and off whites are not true butyl tapes such as the stuff often sold at RV stores. Gray is tough to do in a good quality tape, white is next to impossible...I have been trying to get my extruder to make one in white that meets my specs but they simply can't.

The fillers needed to make it off white literally ruin the product. I've tested over 40 tapes and only a hand full are decent quality..

This is the same with polyurethane sealants. There are literally hundreds of products sold that are a polyurethane sealant like 4200, Sikaflex etc. but not all the "formulations" are the same..


----------



## rugosa

I tried to get roles of butyl from Toronto area yard that used to do C&C factory warranty, plus a lot of other boats. Rebedding hand rails, genoa tracks & stanchions before spring launch. Their parts guy said "I haven't seen any of that stuff for years, it's all the same, just go to a glazer". I worked in that yard for 7 years and we ALWAYS used factory spec. So, I ordered some from Mainsail, it shipped next day to my niece in DC and I'll pick it up on our turkey trip Thursday. Thanks again MS!


----------



## casey1999

I bought some from MS and have used it to bed deck hardware, stuff works great. I'd rather spend a little more for proper materials than to do a job more than once.


----------



## OPossumTX

Skipaway said:


> WOW. We've already become butyl tape converts. Now the discussion moves to quality of butyl tape! Actually seems an appropriate evolution.
> 
> - Charlie (what do I do with my home depot stuff?)


I just recently bought a Freedom 25 off EBay of all places and while I was bringing it down the intracoastal canal from Pt Arthur to Kemah, TX I got into some little showers. I noticed a few small drippy leaks from bolts on the deck/hull joint and around the compass. There was significant travail on this trip but this was at the beginning.

Having read the first page or two of this thread, I rushed out and bought some of this wonderful stuff that I knew I could get cheap from home depot. After I messed around with it a little, I came back and read the whole thread. I have now received two rolls from Maine Sail and the HD stuff will be used when I re-work my carport, not the boat!

There is a HUGE difference between the products. If I did not know they had the same base, I would not believe it. The Home Depot stuff is more like plumber's putty. It will fill the gap but not take a whole lot of movement. When it is compressed, it does not stick and elongate like the stuff Maine Sail is selling when things are moved and pulled apart.

Maine Sail, you DE MAN! Thanks!

Have FUN!
O'


----------



## Maine Sail

OPossumTX said:


> Having read the first page or two of this thread, I rushed out and bought some of this wonderful stuff that I knew I could get cheap from home depot. After I messed around with it a little, I came back and read the whole thread. I have now received two rolls from Maine Sail and the HD stuff will be used when I re-work my carport, not the boat!
> 
> There is a HUGE difference between the products. If I did not know they had the same base, I would not believe it. The Home Depot stuff is more like plumber's putty. It will fill the gap but not take a whole lot of movement. When it is compressed, it does not stick and elongate like the stuff Maine Sail is selling when things are moved and pulled apart.
> 
> Maine Sail, you DE MAN! Thanks!
> 
> Have FUN!
> O'


Glad I could help!!!

As I have mentioned many times I tested over 40 products for over a year before bringing Bed-It Tape to the marine market. In fact I am still testing other manufacturers and products and am still in the search for a white or off white products that meets my standards... I think it is a needle in a haystack but I keep trying. Was just sent a sample last week of a "new formulation" and sure enough it was new but still no good....

Glad you liked it and always glad when I can help...


----------



## asdf38

OPossumTX said:


> Having read the first page or two of this thread, I rushed out and bought some of this wonderful stuff that I knew I could get cheap from home depot. After I messed around with it a little, I came back and read the whole thread. I have now received two rolls from Maine Sail and the HD stuff will be used when I re-work my carport, not the boat!
> 
> There is a HUGE difference between the products. If I did not know they had the same base, I would not believe it. The Home Depot stuff is more like plumber's putty. It will fill the gap but not take a whole lot of movement. When it is compressed, it does not stick and elongate like the stuff Maine Sail is selling when things are moved and pulled apart.
> 
> Maine Sail, you DE MAN! Thanks!
> 
> Have FUN!
> O'


Yep I went through the exact same process. I tried ebay and found something that's close. And then I tried McMaster and bought "Stay-Soft Glazing Rope":

"Easy to apply, this butyl rope seals leaks in ridges, eaves, gutters, and headers. Also holds glass in frames for a weather-tight seal. To use, uncurl rope and press in place. It stays soft and pliable for years. Application temperature range is -40° to +95° F; operating temperature range is -40° to +212° F. Diameter is 1/4". Comes in 20-ft. roll. Color is gray. This product is compliant under all state VOC rules in effect on October 1, 2008."

It's also close. But it never quite felt like how it was described here. So finally I bought some from Maine. His tape is softer, stickier, and comes in a nice thin tape form instead of round.

This stuff is similar to epoxy in that it all has the same base but still has be formulated just right for specific applications. A lot of variations are close but not quite the same. Maine is doing the work of sorting through that and selecting just the right thing.

So I strongly suggest everyone reading this thread buy from him and save themselves the time, trouble and money of working with the wrong thing.


----------



## Dubbinchris

therapy23 said:


> You may find that you get what you pay for..................
> 
> As mentioned (and shown) in the thread.


I'm almost certain it's the correct stuff after reading this whole thread.


----------



## Bacchus258

Thanks for the great tutorial. As a new, first time sailboat owner I really appreciate having detailed and illustrated instructions to use. 

Sent from my Samsung GS3 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## i_amcdn

I bought two rolls from Maine, gave one to my boss who sails a leaky Cal 27-7 and am about 2/3 through my roll.

Here are pics of my plexiglass replacements. The biggest challenges were getting the old ones off, removing the caulk and glue that stayed behind and then removing duct tape residue. I was getting the plexi for free so I could not complain about the 3 month delay however I had to temporarily (3 months) cover the window openings with plastic held in place with duct tape. During Toronto's hottest summer ever that duct tape, under a green tarp, was baked into the deck. Come late Oct I froze my fingers getting that duct tape residue off with Goo Gone and acetone....but in the end all worked out. I will give the screws another turn or two come warmer weather.

This qualifies for cheap projects as it only cost me the $50+ US into Maine's bank account but I wanted to post it with the butyl tape because it was so easy to work with. I have also used the tape to seal one of my stanchions where a little "side arm" support stuck through the cabin side and I will do two more in the spring.

Thanks Maine.


----------



## Tymadman

I've been using electrical self-amalgamating tape (butyl tape) with good results to seal deck fittings. It is very thin so you need to be a bit creative when applying it, but it works well.


----------



## CS Cruiser

Just ordered three rolls, thanks RC!


----------



## Maine Sail

ODay e-pod said:


> Just ordered three rolls, thanks RC!


Always glad when I can help.


----------



## xymotic

Tymadman said:


> I've been using electrical self-amalgamating tape (butyl tape) with good results to seal deck fittings. It is very thin so you need to be a bit creative when applying it, but it works well.


Wha????? Electrical tape is not self amalgamating, and self amalgamating tape (rescue tape / rigging tape) is not Butyl rubber/tape. So color me confused cuz I have no idea what you mean?


----------



## Tymadman

xymotic said:


> Wha????? Electrical tape is not self amalgamating, and self amalgamating tape (rescue tape / rigging tape) is not Butyl rubber/tape. So color me confused cuz I have no idea what you mean?


In that case you're obviously not an electrician 
Try googling self-amalgamating tape, which is butyl tape we use in the electrical industry to re-insulate stuff. PVC electrical tape is what you are thinking of.


----------



## asdf38

Tymadman said:


> In that case you're obviously not an electrician
> Try googling self-amalgamating tape, which is butyl tape we use in the electrical industry to re-insulate stuff. PVC electrical tape is what you are thinking of.


This is of interest to me because I just starting purchasing this stuff at home and at work. My understanding is consistent with xymotic. Self-amalgamating tape (self fusing) is called EPR or Ethylene Propylene Rubber which has no relation to butyl from what I can tell.

See 3M :
Self Amalgamating Tape : 3M UK & Ireland


----------



## Tymadman

asdf38 said:


> This is of interest to me because I just starting purchasing this stuff at home and at work. My understanding is consistent with xymotic. Self-amalgamating tape (self fusing) is called EPR or Ethylene Propylene Rubber which has no relation to butyl from what I can tell.
> 
> See 3M :
> Self Amalgamating Tape : 3M UK & Ireland


Try googling 'butyl self-amalgamating tape'.


----------



## Maine Sail

Tymadman said:


> Try googling 'butyl self-amalgamating tape'.


There are literally hundreds of products out there that use the term "butyl" in their description. Not all formulations of butyl, of which there are literally tons, are suitable for this application. Companies add fillers, solvents and other ingredients to get the formulation they want at the price they desire.

Most "butyl" self-amalgamating tapes are a mixture of butyl rubber and other rubber products such as EPM. If it has worked okay for you that is great, but having tested over 45 different manufacturers (not products but manufacturers) of "butyl" products I have found very, very few that are suitable.


----------



## Tymadman

The first deck fittings I used the particular tape I'm using on were done nearly 2 years ago and so far no problems. I was worried that the tape might leave a stain behind but that doesn't seem to be a problem either. 
I guess the properties that make the tape good for electrical use in that the tape is likely to be exposed to the weather and must keep water out, also make it good for sealing deck fittings.

Here is a description of the particular type of tape I'm using...



NITTO no. 15 self-fusing butyl tape

Nitto no. 15 is a self-fusing butyl-based tape that does not require a liner, thereby reducing the time required to apply the tape during assembly. The tape has extremely good electrical properties, superior weatherability and resistance to water. Established areas of application include: corrosion protection of wires and cables on through connections and branch couplings, insulation of high-voltage cables, sealing cable heads, repairing cable sheaths, corrosion protection of pipes, pipe connections and installations, as filler material to compensate for unevenness.

-55°C to +105°C
Excellent workability due to linerless system
Exceptional electrical properties
Extremely resistant to moisture, water and chemicals
Superior weatherability and ozone resistance
Self-amalgamates within 12 hours when stretched at 100 - 150%


----------



## Maine Sail

Tymadman said:


> The first deck fittings I used the particular tape I'm using on were done nearly 2 years ago and so far no problems. I was worried that the tape might leave a stain behind but that doesn't seem to be a problem either.
> I guess the properties that make the tape good for electrical use in that the tape is likely to be exposed to the weather and must keep water out, also make it good for sealing deck fittings.
> 
> Here is a description of the particular type of tape I'm using...
> 
> NITTO no. 15 self-fusing butyl tape
> 
> Nitto no. 15 is a self-fusing butyl-based tape that does not require a liner, thereby reducing the time required to apply the tape during assembly. The tape has extremely good electrical properties, superior weatherability and resistance to water. Established areas of application include: corrosion protection of wires and cables on through connections and branch couplings, insulation of high-voltage cables, sealing cable heads, repairing cable sheaths, corrosion protection of pipes, pipe connections and installations, as filler material to compensate for unevenness.
> 
> -55°C to +105°C
> Excellent workability due to linerless system
> Exceptional electrical properties
> Extremely resistant to moisture, water and chemicals
> Superior weatherability and ozone resistance
> Self-amalgamates within 12 hours when stretched at 100 - 150%


There is really no such thing as a "butyl tape" that does not require a "liner" or waxed paper backing on the roll. That tape is definitely a mix of butyl and other products. Real butyl will stick to itself just by looking at it and there is no way to make it "linerless"....

I suspect your tape is working by compression, which can't be underestimated... Still if I were going to do all that labor I'd personally want to choose a butyl tape intended for marine applications.


----------



## Tymadman

Maine Sail said:


> There is really no such thing as a "butyl tape" that does not require a "liner" or waxed paper backing on the roll. That tape is definitely a mix of butyl and other products. Real butyl will stick to itself just by looking at it and there is no way to make it "linerless"....
> 
> I suspect your tape is working by compression, which can't be underestimated... Still if I were going to do all that labor I'd personally want to choose a butyl tape intended for marine applications.


I can't disagree, but I'm happy to be the guinea pig for a solution that is readily available (I thought I'd give it a go because I couldn't find thicker butyl tape) and is quite cheap. If others give it a go they should bear in mind that its not specifically for marine use.


----------



## TakeFive

Tymadman said:


> I can't disagree, but I'm happy to be the guinea pig for a solution that is readily available...


As one who previously tried a readily available alternative (which wasn't terrible, just a little too runny), I learned my lesson and am now happy to pay a few dollars extra to let Maine Sail be the guinea pig with close to 50 other manufacturers.

The physical properties of butyl tape, like any other polymeric product, is a complex blend of ingredients (like MS already mentioned) and other attributes such as molecular weight and amount of branching in the molecule. As with any sealant, the key tradeoff is always cohesive strength vs. adhesive strength. By tradeoff I mean that you ALWAYS sacrifice one when you improve the other, so the specific application will determine the proper balance of properties.

You don't need much adhesion for objects that are bolted to the deck - you just want it to stretch like crazy and stick enough to maintain its seal without letting go. Any more stick is more than you need, and will result in you sacrificing some stretch and cohesion.

MS has tested a whole bunch of products to get the one that has just enough adhesion to hold, but will stretch like crazy (check his videos for an eye-opening demo), so when you pull on the lifeline and the stanchion is stressed, its baseplate will never lose its seal because the bedding will stretch without losing adhesion.

This balance of properties is different for marine applications than it is for anything else, so by buying his product you have the one that's best for its intended purpose.


Tymadman said:


> ...and is quite cheap...


"Cheap" and "marine" are rarely compatible, and in this case the cost of a roll is far less than the time and effort you put into using it. Butyl tape that is truly marine grade is one of the cheapest things you'll buy for your boat, and saving a few dollars with an inferior product is false economy.


----------



## Tymadman

TakeFive said:


> As one who previously tried a readily available alternative (which wasn't terrible, just a little too runny), I learned my lesson and am now happy to pay a few dollars extra to let Maine Sail be the guinea pig with close to 50 other manufacturers.
> 
> The physical properties of butyl tape, like any other polymeric product, is a complex blend of ingredients (like MS already mentioned) and other attributes such as molecular weight and amount of branching in the molecule. As with any sealant, the key tradeoff is always cohesive strength vs. adhesive strength. By tradeoff I mean that you ALWAYS sacrifice one when you improve the other, so the specific application will determine the proper balance of properties.
> 
> You don't need much adhesion for objects that are bolted to the deck - you just want it to stretch like crazy and stick enough to maintain its seal without letting go. Any more stick is more than you need, and will result in you sacrificing some stretch and cohesion.
> 
> MS has tested a whole bunch of products to get the one that has just enough adhesion to hold, but will stretch like crazy (check his videos for an eye-opening demo), so when you pull on the lifeline and the stanchion is stressed, its baseplate will never lose its seal because the bedding will stretch without losing adhesion.
> 
> This balance of properties is different for marine applications than it is for anything else, so by buying his product you have the one that's best for its intended purpose.
> 
> "Cheap" and "marine" are rarely compatible, and in this case the cost of a roll is far less than the time and effort you put into using it. Butyl tape that is truly marine grade is one of the cheapest things you'll buy for your boat, and saving a few dollars with an inferior product is false economy.


Good advice. Everyone will do well to completely ignore anything I have said on this subject.
Butyl tape is obviously far too complex for me to understand and furthermore because MS hasn't given the stamp approval to the tape I'm using it can't be good.

Cheers,
Neil.


----------



## Maine Sail

Tymadman said:


> Good advice. Everyone will do well to completely ignore anything I have said on this subject.
> Butyl tape is obviously far too complex for me to understand and furthermore because MS hasn't given the stamp approval to the tape I'm using it can't be good.
> 
> Cheers,
> Neil.


Neil,

Most advice can be good advice. Perhaps someday someone will have a deck leak in a far away place and remember your post. They could certainly use some self-amalgamating tape in a pinch. While it might not last long term it may just get them to the next port without that annoying drip right over their berth...


----------



## Tymadman

Maine Sail said:


> Neil,
> 
> Most advice can be good advice. Perhaps someday someone will have a deck leak in a far away place and remember your post. They could certainly use some self-amalgamating tape in a pinch. While it might not last long term it may just get them to the next port without that annoying drip right over their berth...


Thanks for your moderating post MS, I do realise that you are the guru and pioneer regarding butyl tape for sealing fittings and I thank you for that. 
I do however get annoyed at people (not you) who give lectures on forums when someone has merely posted a personal anecdote which doesn't include advice to others nor implore others to follow suit.
I prefer to assume fellow forum members are intelligent and are able to make up their own minds about what is best for them and their situation, unlike the lecturers who assume everyone is else stupid.
/end rant!


----------



## TakeFive

Well you can call my post a lecture, and I can call your post a rant, and it's all good. We all post our experiences, and my experience is that MS sells a good product.

There are times people may need a quick repair and don't have time for mail order, so your suggestion may help guide them to a solution that fits their limitations. But the governing limitation in this case should be time, not money. That's my advice, and it's worth what you paid for it. 

I'm not sure why you're so offended by my post. I said that I did essentially the same thing you did (look for a cheaper solution), but instead I learned to appreciate a superior product.

As someone who has spent my entire career doing polymer R&D for Fortune 50 companies in the paints/coating/ink/adhesives/sealants industry, I have some useful input and I will continue to make it. You are welcome to make yours too, and if we sometimes disagree, then the readers will be smart enough to decide which advice to follow.

Cheers!


----------



## Bill-Rangatira

there is also a product out there used in the construction trade for lining window and door openings comes in wider rolls. I've used this for sound dampening as well as sealing 
for sound dampening I glue heavy aluminum foil over it to line the walls in my engine room 
for sealing/gasket application I like it as it is one continuous sheet. again use you own judgement which product is best for your application
also a good primer for butyl is to paint a thin coat of contact cement (use the good exterior stuff not the water based or interior stuff)


----------



## Jd1

Kudos to Maine Sail !!!! Got my order of three rolls of butyl tape today ..... the kudos part comes in the shipping area. It costs a rediculous amount of money ($40) to ship a small box to Canada. He managed to squish the three rolls into a DVD sized box (perfect fit) and get it to me at almost half the amount for shipping! 

THANKS !!!


----------



## mitiempo

white74 said:


> also a good primer for butyl is to paint a thin coat of contact cement (use the good exterior stuff not the water based or interior stuff)


I own a CS27, smaller sister to Maine Sail's CS36T. Both boats, as well as all other CS boats were built with all through bolted deck hardware bedded with good quality butyl. The hull'deck joint was butyl bedded as well. All original deck hardware on my boat is still leak free - the issues were items installed by previous owners using silicone or other sealants. On any item I have removed, like the forward hatch I replaced, the original (35 year old!) butyl was still doing its job. The adjacent balsa was bone dry and the hatch was hard to remove.

If it needs a primer it is not good butyl.


----------



## Maine Sail

mitiempo said:


> I own a CS27, smaller sister to Maine Sail's CS36T. Both boats, as well as all other CS boats were built with all through bolted deck hardware bedded with good quality butyl. The hull'deck joint was butyl bedded as well. All original deck hardware on my boat is still leak free - the issues were items installed by previous owners using silicone or other sealants. On any item I have removed, like the forward hatch I replaced, the original (35 year old!) butyl was still doing its job. The adjacent balsa was bone dry and the hatch was hard to remove.
> 
> If it needs a primer it is not good butyl.


Problem is there are literally HUNDREDS of products out there with the term "butyl" in the description and this leads to lots of confusion, and inferior or poor performing products for the job.

Please do not use a primer if using Bed-It Butyl Tape just clean the deck and fitting and install.......


----------



## Maine Sail

Jd1 said:


> Kudos to Maine Sail !!!! Got my order of three rolls of butyl tape today ..... the kudos part comes in the shipping area. It costs a rediculous amount of money ($40) to ship a small box to Canada. He managed to squish the three rolls into a DVD sized box (perfect fit) and get it to me at almost half the amount for shipping!
> 
> THANKS !!!


Glad i could help. Always a little uncomfortable shipping it that way but so far it seems to have worked, and saves money.... Knock wood..... Oh and yes international shipping has become outrageously expensive...


----------



## rugosa

CS used Tremco brand butyl pretty well all around. Good to hear you have no leaks Brian, I'm the guy that installed all that hardware. 35 years and no leaks, talk about low maintenance.


----------



## HardTAC

Wow, it took quite a while to read through this thread, but boy was it worth it! I have been without a boat for a dozen years but just acquired a 30-year-old sailboat that's gonna need as lot of hardware re-bedding. Without reading this first, I might have gone back to my old silicone ways... I'm ordering a few rolls of butyl tape ASAP! Thanks MS and everyone for all the tips and advice. It's all good!


----------



## budvar

*Butyl use with nonthru bolt applications?*

Recently got a roll of Butyl (thanks! Looks like great stuff). Have an older US Boat, mast down for rerigging. The stepmast base is held by 4 deep screws. I tried the butyl but ran into the problem of when turning the screws, the turning motion would start wrapping the surrounding butyl.

Would this still be a correct application to use the butyl around (slightly away from the screws) the base, pressing (or standing) on it, then mounting the deep screws in place?

Thanks!
Chris, S.E. Washington State


----------



## TheRoutens

I'm about to re-step the mast on my '77 Cal 34 and am in the process of bedding my chainplates.

Can anyone tell me if the decks need to be absolutely dry before I put the butyl tape down under the chainplate covers? We are predicted to have a week of rain here in Washington and I just don't want to wait that long to get the chainplates back in.

Also, a big THANK YOU to MaineSail for showing us this information! I have to rebed all of the lifeline stanchions and without this I would have made a huge mistake in choosing the bedding material.

Thanks in advance for any advice on surface condtions for applying the butyl tape.

Mike


----------



## TheRoutens

I'm about to re-step the mast on my '77 Cal 34 and am in the process of bedding my chainplates.

Can anyone tell me if the decks need to be absolutely dry before I put the butyl tape down under the chainplate covers? We are predicted to have a week of rain here in Washington and I just don't want to wait that long to get the chainplates back in.

Also, a big THANK YOU to MaineSail for showing us this information! I have to rebed all of the lifeline stanchions and without this I would have made a huge mistake in choosing the bedding material.

Thanks in advance for any advice on surface condtions for applying the butyl tape.

Mike


----------



## Maine Sail

TheRoutens said:


> I'm about to re-step the mast on my '77 Cal 34 and am in the process of bedding my chainplates.
> 
> Can anyone tell me if the decks need to be absolutely dry before I put the butyl tape down under the chainplate covers? We are predicted to have a week of rain here in Washington and I just don't want to wait that long to get the chainplates back in.
> 
> Also, a big THANK YOU to MaineSail for showing us this information! I have to rebed all of the lifeline stanchions and without this I would have made a huge mistake in choosing the bedding material.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any advice on surface condtions for applying the butyl tape.
> 
> Mike


Must be dry. A rag with Acetone will do wonders for a damp deck...


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## asdf38

1) I'm re-bedding chainplates. They're flush to the deck but I'd like to use butyl. However I don't want them getting junk stuck to them or being exposed to UV for long periods of time. Would it be ok to use butyl and then put lifecaulk over that?

2) I just finished re-bedding some deck hardware today and one thing that worked pretty well was to counter sink before re-drilling the epoxy.

The counter sink doesn't walk as much as a drill bit, is easier to center initially, and if it's off center it can be walked back towards the center unlike a drill bit.

So once you have the centered countersink the drill bit will right down the center of the epoxy plug.

Also I found that a guide block of solid oak was a simple way to guide the drill straight. I just drilled out a small scrap block of oak at home for various size bits in the press for straight perpendicular holes.

3) The adhesive properties of butyl can't be forgotten. I had to hole saw some inspection holes in the head platform to get access to the bolts underneath. To re-fill these holes I was able to simply stick some leftover 2" soffit vents (like $1 each at home depot) into the holes with butyl. The advantage of butyl being how easy it was and the fact that I can yank them out with no tools, then replace them anytime I want in the future.


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## flo617

hello,

I recently recaulked a few stuff with tape myself but now I'm wondering if I used the right stuff. I think the product was AT-200Y from General Sealants. I found it at my local chandelry store. The guy there told me it's all good for caulking and that it was good stuff (although the website advertises the product as vacuum bag sealant adhesive).

(Yesterday I was sailing on the SF bay and the deck got covered with water numerous times I have not seen a leak coming from the fitting I bedded with that yellow stuff.)

Thanks,

Florent


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## OPossumTX

I would contact the manufacturer to find out what it is and how it ages before using anymore of it. Everything that is sticky and works for a while does not mean that it a good bedding compound. This stuff looks to be intended for a very limited lifetime. I believe the manufacturer says 6 month shelf life.


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## dvuyxx

Maine, this is one of the best how to posts I've read. I am about to rebed a lot of hardware on teak rails. Is butyl tape good on wood? Is it better to remove the hardware and finish the wood ... Then butyl or better on bare wood?


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

dvuyxx said:


> Maine, this is one of the best how to posts I've read. I am about to rebed a lot of hardware on teak rails. Is butyl tape good on wood? Is it better to remove the hardware and finish the wood ... Then butyl or better on bare wood?


I had to remove the handrails on my boat due to leaking. I varnished them while they were off with a single coat on the bottom. I used the butyl to seal it up when putting it back on the boat and have left a tarp off since and don't see any leaks or other issues with it. I think the important part is having the compression between the hardware, wood and mounting surface.


----------



## Maine Sail

dvuyxx said:


> Maine, this is one of the best how to posts I've read. I am about to rebed a lot of hardware on teak rails. Is butyl tape good on wood? Is it better to remove the hardware and finish the wood ... Then butyl or better on bare wood?


In experience you are ALWAYS better to seal the underside of the wood. If you don't this is where moisture enters and begins to lift the finish. Some of the higher end boat builders epoxy seal the bottoms of teak applied above decks...

Butyl will work either way but if you have the wood off definitely seal the bottom...


----------



## oomfh

Sorry if this question has already been asked. I relocated a traveler track onto superfine nonskid. I'm trying to remove the residual buytl that has gotten onto the nonskid. I've used acetone soaked q-tips - but that only gets the butyl sitting on top of the nonskid. Any suggestions on removing the buytl sitting at the bottom of the _fine_ nonskid?


----------



## Maine Sail

oomfh said:


> Sorry if this question has already been asked. I relocated a traveler track onto superfine nonskid. I'm trying to remove the residual buytl that has gotten onto the nonskid. I've used acetone soaked q-tips - but that only gets the butyl sitting on top of the nonskid. Any suggestions on removing the buytl sitting at the bottom of the _fine_ nonskid?


Mineral Spirits does a better job than Acetone...


----------



## WesAllen

Maine Sail, I received your Tape and used it on my windows that have been leaking for 4+ years. THANK YOU it really worked. They haven't leaked in 2 months so far. Everything else will be rebedded this winter for sure. Thanks again. 

P.S. My brother works for the local RV dealer and yours is better than anything he could get.


----------



## rugosa

Simple Green & Majik Eraser - works like magic!


----------



## oceangirl

I've read at least 19 pages, sorry if this has been asked and answered.

First, FANTASTIC article Maine Sail, pure gold!

I was wondering if anyone in the tropics, have issues with butyl "running" a bit. 
If so, what solutions have you come up with? Is butyl compatible with other caulks? Maybe caulk a perimeter thin bead of something like 4000uv to "skin" or form a barrier to the butyl? Crazy talk?

Why not get the black butyl? Is this due to tracking it around the boat?

Side note: I've used 3Ms take on butyl tape strip caulk(http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=66666UuZjcFSLXTt4xMcNxfXEVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--&fn=TDS_08578_P.pdf ), I liked it, bought it from Bluewater ship store in Texas. Did very well but I only had the boat another year after that work. I will find out how well it stood up when i see the boat in a couple weeks, I haven't owned the boat in 13 years.

Again, sorry if this has been explained already. Great thread.


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## asdf38

oceangirl said:


> Is butyl compatible with other caulks? Maybe caulk a perimeter thin bead of something like 4000uv to "skin" or form a barrier to the butyl? Crazy talk?


Good question, I'd like to see the answer. I applied lifecaulk polysulfide over butyl tape on my chainplates just this season and I'm not sure if that was smart yet or not. I didn't want to leave the butyl entirely exposed to UV/dirt etc.


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## SantaAna12

Thank you Maine Sail.

A couple questions: In reading the post I remember the straw method and the pen method for making holes in the butyl when inserting screws/bolts. I did my fore hatch awhile back, and will be doing my salon hatch soon. I found the straw method ( the straw I used ) to flex, and the pen to stick. Is there any point to "wet" out the pen with water to lessen the tape winding on the fastener? 
Another question: I would appreciate any suggestions of a quality (perhaps value is the better term ) countersink brand that would make process easier.

A side note: When I removed the 25 year old electrical panel on my Cal a few years ago I noted it was sealed with Butyl. Still dry underneath, and no sign of water intrusion to the surroundings! 

A great post.....Thanks!


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## ericb760

Greetings! I do hate to bother you. But, after reading this excellent post on the use of butyl and countersinking, which I will be using when I install stanchions on my boat, I felt compelled to ask a slightly different question. I recently purchased a 1969 Yankee Dolphin. The handrails have been sanded/eroded by weather so badly that they are literally pencil thin. I have bought new ones and am ready to tackle replacement. There is absolutely no evidence of water intrusion inside the cabin where the bolts that hold the rail pass through the roof. I'd like to keep it that way. Can you advise me how to properly bed the handrails from underneath? Perhaps a tutorial on attaching teak deck fittings from below? Thank you for your time, I look forward to your advice.

Eric


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## overbored

have you read this one? Sealing Deck Penetrations to Prevent Core Rot Photo Gallery by Compass Marine at pbase.com
should be used when attached from above or below


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## ericb760

Yes, I read that tutorial as well. I'm not understanding if he is suggesting this method when changing existing deck hardware that shows no signs of water intrusion. I was thinking I would use this butyl method, i.e. countersinking the existing holes (if they haven't been done originally), and then attaching them from below.


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## mitiempo

The butyl should be between the handrail and the deck, with a countersink on the cabin top where the fastener exits the cabin top and enters the handrail. Never use sealant - butyl or other types - on the inside of the boat. All that does is guarantee that any leak will enter the core and you won't know it. If a leak does develop you want to know it asap.


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## Maine Sail

ericb760 said:


> Greetings! I do hate to bother you. But, after reading this excellent post on the use of butyl and countersinking, which I will be using when I install stanchions on my boat, I felt compelled to ask a slightly different question. I recently purchased a 1969 Yankee Dolphin. The handrails have been sanded/eroded by weather so badly that they are literally pencil thin. I have bought new ones and am ready to tackle replacement. There is absolutely no evidence of water intrusion inside the cabin where the bolts that hold the rail pass through the roof. I'd like to keep it that way. Can you advise me how to properly bed the handrails from underneath? Perhaps a tutorial on attaching teak deck fittings from below? Thank you for your time, I look forward to your advice.
> 
> Eric


First you dry fit them. If they screw up from below, as many do, mark your centers and pre-drill the rails. Now screw them down dry and make sure they fit. Sometimes, due to cabin top shape, some bases may not fit flush to the deck and may need the proper angle sanded in to them.

Next remove hand rail and countersink each hole then insert each screw through the deck. If you not epoxy potted the deck now is a good time to do so...

Wrap an extra long butyl cone around each screw to hold it in place and cover the bottom of the hand rails in Bed-It butyl leaving just the screw hole showing.. Using a friend align the screws with the holes and begin to tighten each one evenly and slowly.

Once the hand rail is compressing the butyl stop screwing and put body pressure on the hand rail from above to displace the butyl. Go snug the screws. Do this again and again until the butyl stops oozing out. DO NOT use the screws to compress the butyl as they can be stripped out of the teak.

It is best to epoxy seal the bottoms of the hand rails where the butyl is to prevent the finish from lifting....


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## davisr

This is the genoa track on our CS-36T as photographed at year 31. The track is still bedded with the original butyl tape she left the factory with in 1979. The track, 31 years later, is still BONE DRY, does not leak and has not leaked in 31 years and 50,000+ nautical miles. We run a 150 genny most of the year, just as the previous owner did so this track sees some heavy loads.

I've seen some less than 4 year old boats bedded with Satan's Glue or its relatives dripping wet with rust stained bolts and wet core at year four and sometimes earlier.

This genny track was installed without countersinking the holes. Just an aluminum genoa track bedded with butyl tape in 1979. Bevel the holes and it will probably go 70 years without a leak.. 









Maine,

Thanks for your helpful advice here and elsewhere. I plan to order some of your butyl soon, before I begin to reinstall my deck hardware. I will pot all holes with epoxy and countersink before applying the butyl.

One question about your experience with the genny track on your own boat. You've had great success at keeping the water out, even though the holes were not countersunk (and evidently not potted with epoxy). Good butyl alone has done the job. The genny track on my boat, at some point before I owned it, allowed water to enter at several points. The evidence for this is that several of the screws are rusty below deck. The amount of water must have been minimal, because there is no evidence of core rot anywhere. The genny track is the only piece of hardware that I've not removed, but I think it would be smart to go ahead and remove it and rebed it with butyl. The only thing is this - I really want to avoid having to pot every single one of the blasted holes beneath the genny track. The hardware for this track is overkill to the max. There are 40 screws (in double rows on each side of the boat). Thus there are 80 total holes that I would have to pot. Do you know of anyone in my situation who's been able to get away with rebedding the genny track with your good butyl alone?

Thanks for any advice in this,
Roscoe

Ericson 25, #226, _Oystercatcher_
Charleston, SC


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## asdf38

Sometime you have to make compromises and butyl alones should do the trick. Potting with epoxy is great practice but it's a second line of defense that should hopefully never be needed if the primary seal is good. The vast majority of all the holes in boat decks are not potted with epoxy and many do just fine after many years.

If you do think about epoxy I'd consider overdrilling instead of the more time consuming practice of gouging out core through a smaller hole. It sounds like it's a lot of holes but the advantage there is the economy of scale. You might be able to move pretty quickly depending. 

The last line of defence against water intrusion is to try to make sure water has a way to get out if it gets in. NEVER seal from the inside. Wood on the outside of the boat lasts for decades after all because although it does get wet it also quickly gets dry.


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## desert rat

Have not done this yet, should work. Take a foot or thick old iron coathanger, 
or just iron wire, bend 90 degrees far enough to gouge out the balsa. flatten the end
heat red hot quench in water and chuck it up in an electric drill. If no one tries this before i buy a boat in about a year ill give you a report. An Allen wrench sharpened to a chisel point should work also.


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## Maine Sail

> Maine,
> 
> Thanks for your helpful advice here and elsewhere. I plan to order some of your butyl soon, before I begin to reinstall my deck hardware. I will pot all holes with epoxy and countersink before applying the butyl.
> 
> One question about your experience with the genny track on your own boat. You've had great success at keeping the water out, even though the holes were not countersunk (and evidently not potted with epoxy). Good butyl alone has done the job. The genny track on my boat, at some point before I owned it, allowed water to enter at several points. The evidence for this is that several of the screws are rusty below deck. The amount of water must have been minimal, because there is no evidence of core rot anywhere. The genny track is the only piece of hardware that I've not removed, but I think it would be smart to go ahead and remove it and rebed it with butyl. The only thing is this - I really want to avoid having to pot every single one of the blasted holes beneath the genny track. The hardware for this track is overkill to the max. There are 40 screws (in double rows on each side of the boat). Thus there are 80 total holes that I would have to pot. Do you know of anyone in my situation who's been able to get away with rebedding the genny track with your good butyl alone?
> 
> Thanks for any advice in this,
> Roscoe
> 
> Ericson 25, #226, _Oystercatcher_
> Charleston, SC


#1 Most genny tracks are concave on the bottom to hold a certain thickness of sealant. This "sort of" takes the place of a countersunk hole. I still prefer to countersink. If your genny track is flat based then you definitely want to countersink.

#2 Why on early ANY builder would run a genny track through cored material is beyond me..... Doh'!!!! It is a crappy job but ideally potting the holes is the best method.

#3 The butyl will work fine alone the potting is only there as a back up in case you goof up or 30 years later you get a leak... But still a genny track through a cored deck is cost cutting 101....

#4 On the other hand its a 25 footer and your time in potting 80 holes might exceed the value of the job, so just re-bed and go sailing.....


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## davisr

Good deal Maine. Many thanks for the tips. Will place an order for your top notch butyl as soon as I can get a good estimate for the total feet I'll need. Will be rebedding not only all the deck hardware (and genny track), but also the portlights. Though it's only 25 feet overall, I can imagine that I'll need more than I'm currently estimating off the top of my head.


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## TakeFive

I have a transom-hung rudder, with two gudgeons mounted on the transom. When I replaced them last year I bedded them with MaineSail's butyl tape, since they are both above the waterline. I cranked down on the screws as much as I could, but toward the end of the season they loosened up. These things have big bronze backing plates and lock nuts, so I know the screws did not loosen. The butyl apparently oozed out enough for the bedding to become a little thinner.

Is butyl the right application for this, or should I look for a curing sealant to bed the gudgeons? If the latter, what would you recommend?

FWIW, I am replacing the Phillips head bolts with hex head, so in the future I should be able tighten them up mid-season without having to remove the rudder.


----------



## Maine Sail

TakeFive said:


> I have a transom-hung rudder, with two gudgeons mounted on the transom. When I replaced them last year I bedded them with MaineSail's butyl tape, since they are both above the waterline. I cranked down on the screws as much as I could, but toward the end of the season they loosened up. These things have big bronze backing plates and lock nuts, so I know the screws did not loosen. The butyl apparently oozed out enough for the bedding to become a little thinner.
> 
> Is butyl the right application for this, or should I look for a curing sealant to bed the gudgeons? If the latter, what would you recommend?
> 
> FWIW, I am replacing the Phillips head bolts with hex head, so in the future I should be able tighten them up mid-season without having to remove the rudder.


This is why I stress over, and over, and over again tighten SLOWLY, WAIT, TIGHTEN SOME MORE, WAIT, TIGHTEN SOME MORE... when the butyl STOPS oozing then the fitting is tight. The larger the fitting the longer the process..... The butyl did what it is supposed to do, the just missed installer a step.. keep tightening until it stops oozing and you'll be fine.


----------



## TakeFive

Maine Sail said:


> This is why I stress over, and over, and over again tighten SLOWLY, WAIT, TIGHTEN SOME MORE, WAIT, TIGHTEN SOME MORE... when the butyl STOPS oozing then the fitting is tight. The larger the fitting the longer the process..... The butyl did what it is supposed to do, the just missed installer a step.. keep tightening until it stops oozing and you'll be fine.


That's what I did for a few days, but I had to stop tightening after installing the rudder because it prevented me reaching the bolts with a screwdriver. Hopefully with the hex heads I'll be able to continue tightening after the rudder is re-installed.


----------



## Maine Sail

TakeFive said:


> That's what I did for a few days, but I had to stop tightening after installing the rudder because it prevented me reaching the bolts with a screwdriver. Hopefully with the hex heads I'll be able to continue tightening after the rudder is re-installed.


You should not need to take it apart and start over unless you want to move to HEX. Sometimes placing a heat lamp on the parts can accelerate the displacement portion of the project from a few weeks of spread out small tightening events to a couple of days.......

I once had a t-top / tower install on a sport fishing boat that took three weeks to stop displacing. Owner kept insisting we were done yet I would keep telling him we were not, these bases are quite large. When he would check on it in a few days it was still slowly displacing. I know there is a tendency to stop tightening because it may _feel tight_ but this product is purposely quite dense as the displacement step forces the butyl into every nook and cranny and keeps it in tension.

I can also tell you that deck core, even when dry, will CRUSH, before Bed-It Butyl Tape is fully displaced, if you take it too fast... It is purposely designed to flow like Molasses up hill in January, just be patient with it...


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

I can now understand the need to wait during tightening.

I took my deck handrails off for refinishing/rebidding earlier this year. I reattached them while it was still starting to warm up. I tightened the bolts and as the weather warmed up, the butyl would ooze out more as it warmed up. I haven't seen any leaks since.


----------



## TakeFive

Maine Sail said:


> You should not need to take it apart and start over unless you want to move to HEX.


I definitely want to move to hex head bolts. I've never been happy with the Phillips head bolts.

But I wasn't planning to start over. I was just going to remove and replace one bolt at a time, so that I never fully released the compression. Do you think that is good enough? Or do I need to pull them off, clean, and start over with another too-thick bed of butyl?


----------



## Maine Sail

TakeFive said:


> I definitely want to move to hex head bolts. I've never been happy with the Phillips head bolts.
> 
> But I wasn't planning to start over. *I was just going to remove and replace one bolt at a time, so that I never fully released the compression.* Do you think that is good enough? Or do I need to pull them off, clean, and start over with another too-thick bed of butyl?


It does not sound like you've read the instructions or fully understand the process. You need to bed the items as a single process not as a single bolt. What is under the plate is only PART of the seal what is around each bolt IS the seal..... How are you going to butyl-cone each bolt then push it through.....?

I may suggest re-reading the instructions:

*Re-Bedding Instructions*


----------



## Ajax_MD

I finally bought the "miracle butyl" yesterday.

I have never been so freaking excited about tape or sealant.
Something is definitely wrong with me.


----------



## TakeFive

Maine Sail said:


> It does not sound like you've read the instructions or fully understand the process. You need to bed the items as a single process not as a single bolt....[/B]


I had read and followed your instructions when I originally installed the new gudgeons, but I had since fogotten this detail. After having re-read your instructions, I'll remove the gudgeons and rebed from scratch. Note, however, that I cannot avoid twisting the bolts because they have a single threaded backing plate. The only way to tighten them is to twist the bolts. There are locknuts behind the backing plate, but they serve only to keep the screws from loosening from the backing plate.


----------



## AllThumbs

Is the transom cored?


----------



## Mosaic

For replacing external chainplates attached to the side of the hull, the manufacturer recommends 3M4000 for UV protection. I was thinking that butyl tape would be better. Thoughts? Mosaic, Friday Harbor, WA


----------



## asdf38

Mosaic said:


> For replacing external chainplates attached to the side of the hull, the manufacturer recommends 3M4000 for UV protection. I was thinking that butyl tape would be better. Thoughts? Mosaic, Friday Harbor, WA


If the plates are bolted externally what are you sealing from? Just the bolt holes? I don't see the UV exposure. If so then I would put butyl under the chain plates around the holes and under the head of the bolts.

As far as Butyl and UV I'd like an answer too. I bedded my chainplates in butyl last season (through the deck) but was hesitant about letting butyl be exposed to UV dirt etc, so I put a layer of lifecaulk over that. I'm not sure this was smart because the lifecaulk has turned yellow.


----------



## endoit

This is a very informative and extensive discussion. After reading the instructions and comments over the past fiew months I am ready to do some work on my boat this winter/spring. I am curious if anyone compared the efficacy of the butyl tape with that of 3M 4200 or other marine materials using the exact techniques for rebedding described in this post. After countersinking the holes, cleaning the surfaces, tightening the nuts without bolt rotation, since it seems the whole process is so technique dependant, shouldn't both products work equally well? A concern of mine is that since butyl tape continue to be so pliable it will continue to flow when exposed to heat during the summer and the additional tightenings may result in accidental rotation of the bolt. Has anyone considered using spacers under deck hardware to facilitate a more even distribution of the material and prevent overtightening?


----------



## Ajax_MD

Butyl has more stretch. 
When a deck fitting moves, (and they all will eventually) the butyl maintains the seal where the 3M products have dried up, and allow the seal to be broken.


----------



## mitiempo

Spacers are not necessary. The butyl will stop flowing after a short while. Ultimately the hardware item will be very close to the deck and that is the reason that the fastener holes are chamfered (countersunk). This gives an "O" ring of sealant around the fastener. For a given amount of movement the thicker the sealant the more movement is allowed before the seal breaks. When the hardware moves under strain, and it will slightly, the sealant used must allow enough stretch without the seal being broken. Butyl excels at this, more so than any other sealant, which will harden over time and lose its elasticity. My CS27, like Maine's CS36T, was built with butyl under all deck hardware and there are no issues 30+ years later - including the hull/deck joint.


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## endoit

Thanks for the clarification, I guess I will be ordering butyl tape soon. Would you also use this product between wood and fiberglass deck or winches and wood?


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## mitiempo

I would use it anywhere above the waterline where the item is bolted in place. I don't think an item attached with screws can always compress it enough. It can be dissolved by fuel as well.

If attaching wood or to wood I would make sure the wood is sealed and not bare. Varnish, paint, or ideally the wood is epoxy sealed first, as it probably should be anyway for longevity.


----------



## axel

What about bedding deck hardware to an old teak deck? Still use butyl? What would you seal the teak with?


----------



## Ajax_MD

You could seal the deck with Cetol or any of a number of varnishes out there.
Yes, I would seal deck hardware to a wood deck with it.

I do NOT think I would use it for below-the-waterline applications. There are some things that the 3M products are still good for.


----------



## Maine Sail

axel said:


> What about bedding deck hardware to an old teak deck? Still use butyl? What would you seal the teak with?


It is used for this all the time and works very well. Also cleans off the teak easier than polyruethanes which tend to take half the deck with it when you remvoe them..

A teak deck is most always left to age natural silver so it is not slippery. Some use teak oils on teak decks but they can become slick in nasty weather......


----------



## christian.hess

sorry if this is not kosher to do...but I dont think they will let me import this wonderful product down here for cheap

so even though its black I have found some down here...sorry if I have missed it but can this work even though I cant confirm its the same quality as used here?

thanks


----------



## Maine Sail

christian.hess said:


> sorry if this is not kosher to do...but I dont think they will let me import this wonderful product down here for cheap
> 
> so even though its black I have found some down here...sorry if I have missed it but can this work even though I cant confirm its the same quality as used here?
> 
> thanks


It will "_work_" but the questions will be:

For how long?
Will it bleed and continue to bleed when hot?
Will it stain?
Will it remain flexible enough to keep the seal when it is 1/64" thick?
How is it affected by typical cleaning chemicals?

I have tested over 40 brands so know that very few of them can meet my standards. I can't have even hazard a guess as to how that product will perform as there are vast differences in how butyls perform...

Blacks usually have okay stretch performance but are darn messy and tend to bleed longer....

My shipping down there is quite expensive so I would say to try it. You can also re-do easily because unlike a PU sealant is will not be near permanent... You really have nothing to lose by trying it...


----------



## axel

Maine Sail said:


> It is used for this all the time and works very well. Also cleans off the teak easier than polyruethanes which tend to take half the deck with it when you remvoe them..
> 
> A teak deck is most always left to age natural silver so it is not slippery. Some use teak oils on teak decks but they can become slick in nasty weather......


Thanks Maine Sail!

I prefer the teak silvered, so I won't oil it or try to treat it in any way. But the question was whether I should seal the teak under the hardware to ensure adhesion for the butyl.

When I take off the hardware for rebedding (genoatracks, chainplates, stanchions, etc.) I could apply epoxy or varnish to the parts of the teak that will afterwards be covered. Earlier in the thread it has been recommended to seal wood before attaching with butyl as sealant. However, none of the cases referred to mounting hardware on a teak deck, which is why I asked my question.

As I stated, the teak deck is old and weathered, and previous owners have sanded it down, at least once, without taking off the hardware. Thus, the genua tracks and other stuff stands a bit proud, a couple of millimeters above the rest of the deck. When I take the hardware off, it is therefore easy to sand off a little, to ensure all previous sealant has been removed. That of course freshens the teak. So the question is really if the butyl will adhere well to this fresh teak, or whether I ought to seal it somehow.

Sorry for being so longwinded, I just want to be sure that my question is clear. And thanks a lot for you help in this thread and elsewhere on the net!


----------



## Maine Sail

axel said:


> Thanks Maine Sail!
> 
> I prefer the teak silvered, so I won't oil it or try to treat it in any way. But the question was whether I should seal the teak under the hardware to ensure adhesion for the butyl.
> 
> When I take off the hardware for rebedding (genoatracks, chainplates, stanchions, etc.) I could apply epoxy or varnish to the parts of the teak that will afterwards be covered. Earlier in the thread it has been recommended to seal wood before attaching with butyl as sealant. However, none of the cases referred to mounting hardware on a teak deck, which is why I asked my question.
> 
> As I stated, the teak deck is old and weathered, and previous owners have sanded it down, at least once, without taking off the hardware. Thus, the genua tracks and other stuff stands a bit proud, a couple of millimeters above the rest of the deck. When I take the hardware off, it is therefore easy to sand off a little, to ensure all previous sealant has been removed. That of course freshens the teak. So the question is really if the butyl will adhere well to this fresh teak, or whether I ought to seal it somehow.
> 
> Sorry for being so longwinded, I just want to be sure that my question is clear. And thanks a lot for you help in this thread and elsewhere on the net!


You can seal it if you want to, but you don't need to...


----------



## christian.hess

Maine Sail said:


> It will "_work_" but the questions will be:
> 
> For how long?
> Will it bleed and continue to bleed when hot?
> Will it stain?
> Will it remain flexible enough to keep the seal when it is 1/64" thick?
> How is it affected by typical cleaning chemicals?
> 
> I have tested over 40 brands so know that very few of them can meet my standards. I can't have even hazard a guess as to how that product will perform as there are vast differences in how butyls perform...
> 
> Blacks usually have okay stretch performance but are darn messy and tend to bleed longer....
> 
> My shipping down there is quite expensive so I would say to try it. You can also re-do easily because unlike a PU sealant is will not be near permanent... You really have nothing to lose by trying it...


maybe I read wrong do you mean shipping is quite expensive or INEXPENSIVE? jajaja

maybe Ill have to bite the bullet

thanks bud
christian


----------



## svhandy

That was great thank you

Again.


----------



## copacabana

christian.hess said:


> sorry if this is not kosher to do...but I dont think they will let me import this wonderful product down here for cheap
> 
> so even though its black I have found some down here...sorry if I have missed it but can this work even though I cant confirm its the same quality as used here?
> 
> thanks


Christian, I found myself in the same position here in Brazil. I couldn't find butyl tape anywhere and at the time Mainsail didn't ship here. I ended up finding it through a Sika dealer (they are strong in Latin America and they have a dealer in El Salvador). The product is called Sika Lastomer (I forget which product number exactly, but look on their site- it's the pale beige tape clearly described as a butyl rubber based product). It is excellent stuff and you might be able to find it in El Salvador. I ended up having to buy a whole box (24 rolls!) as the local dealer couldn't order less, so if you ever head down to Brazil I have some for you!


----------



## christian.hess

someday Ill cruise to brasil...for now...that info is woth gold!

thanks so much copa and and mainesail

christian


----------



## justonemoreproject

I am bedding various pieces of countersunk hardware on a wooden deck: jib tracks, pad eyes, stanchions, etc. But I am unable to follow Mainsail's tutorial because the bolts are threaded through the deck and so I have to turn the head of the screw in order to screw it through the deck to seat it…which scrapes off the butyl as it seats in the hardware.
Should I enlarge the bolt holes in the deck slightly so that the bolts can be inserted with out turning them?


----------



## Maine Sail

justonemoreproject said:


> I am bedding various pieces of countersunk hardware on a wooden deck: jib tracks, pad eyes, stanchions, etc. But I am unable to follow Mainsail's tutorial because the bolts are threaded through the deck and so I have to turn the head of the screw in order to screw it through the deck to seat it&#8230;which scrapes off the butyl as it seats in the hardware.
> Should I enlarge the bolt holes in the deck slightly so that the bolts can be inserted with out turning them?


Does any of your deck hardware use backing plates? Are there metal plates inserted into the decks that are tapped for the bolts?


----------



## justonemoreproject

Thanks for responding Mainsail. 
The deck hardware I am rebidding only has fender washers and not backing plates.

There are no metal plates inserted in the deck. Just wood, nuts and washers.
Thanks!


----------



## Maine Sail

justonemoreproject said:


> Thanks for responding Mainsail.
> The deck hardware I am rebidding only has fender washers and not backing plates.
> 
> There are no metal plates inserted in the deck. Just wood, nuts and washers.
> Thanks!


I'd suggest going on drill larger with the holes so you can tighten the nuts without twisting the bolts too much..


----------



## justonemoreproject

I forgot that some of the higher load deck hardware like the main sheet block are mounted in the deck with "sex" bolts.


----------



## justonemoreproject

CORRECTION
My mistake, ALL of the deck hardware except for the stanchion bases, does NOT just go through wood. There are metal sleeves in the deck that bolts thread through before nuts are threaded on inside of the hull.
So, how should I bed with Butyl in that situation?

The exception are the stanchion bolts. They do not thread into a metal sleeve, they thread through wooden beams and then are secured by nuts inside the hull. They get a lot of strength and movement is inhibited because they are threaded through into the wood of the deck. Should those be drilled to help seat with butyl?

Thank-you for your advice.


----------



## FirstCandC

Got my butyl tape from Maine Sail promptly. Now it is time to re-bed one chain plate. Water is coming in from this location, but it seems to be clear (no brown goo). However, the water is coming in and some of it is working its way to the back of the cabin. I have read so much on this subject that my head hurts. There is no way that I can completely dry out the area prior to the epoxy repair at this time. The flat plate on deck is held down by four screws (somewhat loose- easy to turn with a screwdriver), and by one horizontal pin. Would it be possible to perform a temporary repair by doing the following:
1- remove the turnbuckle and plate
2- clean and plug the area generously with butyl tape
3- reinstall the hardware, with the horizontal pin holding everything in place
Can I get by with this until next winter's haul-out?


----------



## rugosa

FirstCandC said:


> Got my butyl tape from Maine Sail promptly. Now it is time to re-bed one chain plate. Water is coming in from this location, but it seems to be clear (no brown goo). However, the water is coming in and some of it is working its way to the back of the cabin. I have read so much on this subject that my head hurts. There is no way that I can completely dry out the area prior to the epoxy repair at this time. The flat plate on deck is held down by four screws (somewhat loose- easy to turn with a screwdriver), and by one horizontal pin. Would it be possible to perform a temporary repair by doing the following:
> 1- remove the turnbuckle and plate
> 2- clean and plug the area generously with butyl tape
> 3- reinstall the hardware, with the horizontal pin holding everything in place
> Can I get by with this until next winter's haul-out?


Your short term repair will work to stop water ingress, but don't forget it is a bandaid and will need complete attention down the road. The plate with 4 screws is a chainplate hood intended to provide a larger sealing surface as well as C&C's commitment to making everything look right. When is winter haulout for you? We've been out since late October, launch in late May.


----------



## FirstCandC

Thanks.
Leaving mine in this winter, haulout likely around Thanksgiving this year. Bought the boat last March, and didn't get to start sailing it until June. Want to do the temporary repair, because I want to sail it this winter. Supposed to be 60 degrees on Monday!


----------



## Samuelmonosov

How about using the epoxy over the tape? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ajax_MD

Although Maine's web page illustrations are wonderful, I keep finding myself forced to do installations that don't quite line up with his instructions.

Mostly my problem is hardware where you can't wrap butyl around the head of the bolt or screw because the hardware is very tall, and far off of the deck.

For example, I have teak grab rails on the inside and topside of the boat, that sandwich the cabin top between them. The bolt head is on the INSIDE of the cabin, in the interior grab rail, it penetrates the cabin top, into the topside grab rail, and into a threaded insert in the top of the topside grab rail.

The best I could do, was snug them down close to the cabin top surface, and wrap butyl around the bolt as best I could, and then finish snugging the grab rails down.

This is not optimal, because the bolt rotates, disrupting the bond of the butyl tape that is wrapped around it. (which is why I get things partially bolted, and close to the cabin top before applying the tape.)

Still, it seems to work and I have not had any leaks. I have a few such installations, and this is frustrating.


----------



## Skipper Jer

BubbleheadMd, I too am faced with bedding the grab rails. My boat doesn't have grab rails
inside. My plan is to apply the tape to the rail where it mates with the cabin top. I'll clean the teak with acetone then apply the tape, cut out the hole for the screw, set the rail on
the cabin top, then screw it down. I've done this to a couple of cleats (bedded the screw heads there), and tested it this morning. YEAH no more leaks.


----------



## therapy23

BubbleheadMd said:


> Although Maine's web page illustrations are wonderful, I keep finding myself forced to do installations that don't quite line up with his instructions.
> 
> Mostly my problem is hardware where you can't wrap butyl around the head of the bolt or screw because the hardware is very tall, and far off of the deck.
> 
> For example, I have teak grab rails on the inside and topside of the boat, that sandwich the cabin top between them. The bolt head is on the INSIDE of the cabin, in the interior grab rail, it penetrates the cabin top, into the topside grab rail, and into a threaded insert in the top of the topside grab rail.
> 
> The best I could do, was snug them down close to the cabin top surface, and wrap butyl around the bolt as best I could, and then finish snugging the grab rails down.
> 
> This is not optimal, because the bolt rotates, disrupting the bond of the butyl tape that is wrapped around it. (which is why I get things partially bolted, and close to the cabin top before applying the tape.)
> 
> Still, it seems to work and I have not had any leaks. I have a few such installations, and this is frustrating.


So it only lasts 15 years instead of 30.


----------



## Ajax_MD

therapy23 said:


> So it only lasts 15 years instead of 30.


Hey, I wouldn't complain about that. I'm just trying to make sure that it's really sealing the cabin top and not allowing water into the core.


----------



## Maine Sail

BubbleheadMd said:


> Hey, I wouldn't complain about that. I'm just trying to make sure that it's really sealing the cabin top and not allowing water into the core.


Punch the bolts up from the cabin and install long butyl cones. Now carefully drop the rail over them (two people best) and get the nuts started. Now just slowly and evenly tighten them all..

Alternatively use threaded rod pre installed in hand rails and acorn nuts on the inside....


----------



## Kenn43

FirstCandC said:


> Water is coming in from this location, but it seems to be clear (no brown goo).


What does it mean if there is brown goo coming from the location?


----------



## Maine Sail

Kenn43 said:


> What does it mean if there is brown goo coming from the location?


Rotting deck core....


----------



## Lubrdink

After getting some butyl from Maine Sail, I've pulled a stanchion and some of my chain plates. Mainly the ones the PO had buried in silicone. Suspecting there was a REASON why they had silly-cone all over them, I pulled them before we paint the deck and sure enough, not a spot of bedding. One I had bed with 4200 just after we got the boat and one was good and tight and had what appeared 4200 under it. The other two I pulled, checked for water (unbelievably they were dry), and rebedded with butyl per MS's instructions. I was pleased with the results. I'm confident they will stay dry for a long time. Adding pictures for the benefit of those who might need pics like I do!


----------



## deltavee

Sorry to bump an old thread, but after reading this post I'm a little confused.

I've explained my question here:
Confused - epoxy or sealant/tape? - The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum

But haven't had any replies as of today. Could someone on this forum (I'm new here) please help me out?


----------



## Maine Sail

deltavee said:


> Sorry to bump an old thread, but after reading this post I'm a little confused.
> 
> I've explained my question here:
> Confused - epoxy or sealant/tape? - The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum
> 
> But haven't had any replies as of today. Could someone on this forum (I'm new here) please help me out?


They are two different steps. The butyl is the sealant between deck and fitting. The Epoxy is to seal the core in case a fitting ever leaked. Most boats, like 98%, do not come from the factory with sealed cores where bolts pass through..

If you want to seal the core you do that first, then bed the fittings.

*Sealing Deck Core Penetrations To Prevent Core Rot*


----------



## Bluefastcar

In the sikaflex documentation it recommends using a thin spacer when bedding items down to prevent all the sealent being squeezed out. Is this a good idea with butyl?


----------



## mitiempo

No


----------



## markh3084

Hello all,

Is Butyl bedding tape available in Australia? Is there an equivalent tape available locally? Thanks in advance.

Mark


----------



## Maine Sail

markh3084 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Is Butyl bedding tape available in Australia? Is there an equivalent tape available locally? Thanks in advance.
> 
> Mark


Mark,

Bed-It Tape is made in the US and only distributed here, at the moment. It is a proprietary/custom formulation, manufactured specifically with properties for bedding deck hardware. Unfortunately the characteristics that make Bed-It Tape what it is are not available in any other product.

It can be shipped to any country but shipping does get a bit expensive. Some folks use freight forwarding services and claim to save some shipping cost. I have looked into a distributor down under but the cost to get the product there is cost prohibitive, it is fairly heavy..


----------



## ReefMagnet

markh3084 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Is Butyl bedding tape available in Australia? Is there an equivalent tape available locally? Thanks in advance.
> 
> Mark


Tapesonline.com.au sell it. Probaly not as good as maine sails but i've used it for my traveller, a hatch and the mooring cleat so far with good results. Blackwoods sell the same stuff too.

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## markh3084

ReefMagnet said:


> Tapesonline.com.au sell it. Probaly not as good as maine sails but i've used it for my traveller, a hatch and the mooring cleat so far with good results. Blackwoods sell the same stuff too.
> 
> Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


I had a look at their site and found a 'black Butyl Flashing Tape'. Is this what you used for your hatch? Was the process the same as described in this post? I'm installing a deck hatch in the near future and want to get it right! Thanks again


----------



## ReefMagnet

markh3084 said:


> I had a look at their site and found a 'black Butyl Flashing Tape'. Is this what you used for your hatch? Was the process the same as described in this post? I'm installing a deck hatch in the near future and want to get it right! Thanks again


No it wasn't that one. It's this one:

Double Sided White Butly Tape

It's available in black also on the site.

I used the same processes as described in this thread. I doubled it over or applied two layers for the stuff that mounted over non skid, otherwise used a single layer. The stuff is more light grey than white, and is like a firm blu-tac. It has a fine nylon mesh matrix and trims easily with scissors.


----------



## SailRedemption

I have a question that didn't come up on the searches too well.. I have rebed my diesel fuel fill deck fittings and I'm not sure what to use. I know to use butyl for things that get stressed like life line sanctions, cleats, etc. But these are pretty static pieces and really only see temperature changed. I was thinking something like 4200 or possibly boat life caulk? I don't want them to move nor do I plan on removing them anytime soon since I'm changing the hoses as well. I just figured the butyl will be affected by the diesel fuel. 

Anyone have any suggestions on this? 

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## James757

Maine Sail,
Sorry to comment on a 4 yr old post, but I have to thank you for all the information you provided on bedding with butyl tape. I am new to sailing and rebedding deck fittings was my first DIY project. I am very happy with the results.

Great information and easy to follow instructions.

Sorry to the group, I would have sent an PM but I do not have enough posts yet.


----------



## SailRedemption

BoatyardBoy said:


> I have a question that didn't come up on the searches too well.. I have rebed my diesel fuel fill deck fittings and I'm not sure what to use. I know to use butyl for things that get stressed like life line sanctions, cleats, etc. But these are pretty static pieces and really only see temperature changed. I was thinking something like 4200 or possibly boat life caulk? I don't want them to move nor do I plan on removing them anytime soon since I'm changing the hoses as well. I just figured the butyl will be affected by the diesel fuel.
> 
> Anyone have any suggestions on this?
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Bump

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## ReefMagnet

BoatyardBoy said:


> Bump
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Butyl tape would dissolve in contact with diesel and polyurethane will also eventually turn to mush. However, in this application it is only spillage that contacts the sealing compound so I would say that 4200 would be an adequate choice.

For applications in permanent contact with diesel fuel, nitrile rubber is the choice. This can also include nitrile impregnated cork gasket material. For total sealing on uneven surfaces the seal can be supplemented with gasket compounds like those made by Permatex that are resistant to diesel fuel.


----------



## Maine Sail

BoatyardBoy said:


> I have a question that didn't come up on the searches too well.. I have rebed my diesel fuel fill deck fittings and I'm not sure what to use. I know to use butyl for things that get stressed like life line sanctions, cleats, etc. But these are pretty static pieces and really only see temperature changed. I was thinking something like 4200 or possibly boat life caulk? I don't want them to move nor do I plan on removing them anytime soon since I'm changing the hoses as well. I just figured the butyl will be affected by the diesel fuel.
> 
> Anyone have any suggestions on this?
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Sabre bedded fuel fills for years with butyl tape and I've not seen any negatives. I generally recommend a marine sealant for fuel fills if spills can pool around it.


----------



## markh3084

Hello all.

This is a great thread, which I have been following to some degree as I prepare for tasks with my boat project. Today, I cut out the hole for a deck hatch install expecting to see something like the photos included on the link at the start of this thread to the 'photo how to' on preventing boat through deck rot. However, when I finished cutting the hole, this is what I found. Not a balsa or ply core but a 'hollow-core' build. So, is this normal?

When I look close, I can see about 1mm of gel-coat, fibre glass, then about 12mm of cavity, followed by more fibreglass and then the inside 1mm of what I presume is gel-coat. (yes, metric, it's all I know ) The total deck width is 25mm.

The deck hatch I purchased has an aluminium frame with about 12 holes that I still need to drill. The last photo shows what the previous owner did at the pop top, so I was thinking of inserting strips of timber into the cavity, sealing it with epoxy resin in some fashion, and when its cured, following the process described on page one of this thread.

Any comments or tips before I botch it all up??? Should I use ply or balsa or something else? What is a good way to seal it, do I coat it with epoxy before I insert the timber strips or after?

It was quite a moment when you first cut into your deck with a jigsaw!!!!


----------



## Bacchus258

markh3084 said:


> Hello all.
> 
> This is a great thread, which I have been following to some degree as I prepare for tasks with my boat project. Today, I cut out the hole for a deck hatch install expecting to see something like the photos included on the link at the start of this thread to the 'photo how to' on preventing boat through deck rot. However, when I finished cutting the hole, this is what I found. Not a balsa or ply core but a 'hollow-core' build. So, is this normal?
> 
> When I look close, I can see about 1mm of gel-coat, fibre glass, then about 12mm of cavity, followed by more fibreglass and then the inside 1mm of what I presume is gel-coat. (yes, metric, it's all I know ) The total deck width is 25mm.
> 
> The deck hatch I purchased has an aluminium frame with about 12 holes that I still need to drill. The last photo shows what the previous owner did at the pop top, so I was thinking of inserting strips of timber into the cavity, sealing it with epoxy resin in some fashion, and when its cured, following the process described on page one of this thread.
> 
> Any comments or tips before I botch it all up??? Should I use ply or balsa or something else? What is a good way to seal it, do I coat it with epoxy before I insert the timber strips or after?
> 
> It was quite a moment when you first cut into your deck with a jigsaw!!!!


My Watkins 27 is constructed like this as well. When I removed the forward hatch it had plywood strips inserted into the cavity that the screws went into. The period was rotted so I think I am going to use plywood again but first coat it with epoxy. You can see pictures here ourbigtooth.blogspot.com  Since the hatch does not have thru bolts I don't think I can use butyl tape for this application.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk


----------



## CHIPPIEGIRL

Thank You for such an excellent explanation. I appreciate he time and energy it took for you to present such a good tutorial on this subject. Please pass the countersinks and the butyl tape . Cheers to you.


----------



## Zarathu

I can't find butyl in my area so I will be using 3M4200 in place of it. Wish I could find butyl tape since it would be cheaper if I could buy it in less than the 100 foot roll. Why would I buy a 100 foot roll, when I only need 6 inches? And why would they only sell it that way???????????


----------



## asdf38

Zarathu said:


> I can't find butyl in my area so I will be using 3M4200 in place of it. Wish I could find butyl tape since it would be cheaper if I could buy it in less than the 100 foot roll. Why would I buy a 100 foot roll, when I only need 6 inches? And why would they only sell it that way???????????


It's not like it's terribly expensive. $30 from Mainesail right? And it will last for years. You'll spend $12 on a bottle of 4200 and next time you try to use it it will be dried up. So I don't think that's a major cost saver.


----------



## Maine Sail

Zarathu said:


> I can't find butyl in my area so I will be using 3M4200 in place of it. Wish I could find butyl tape since it would be cheaper if I could buy it in less than the 100 foot roll. Why would I buy a 100 foot roll, when I only need 6 inches? And why would they only sell it that way???????????


Hamilton Marine sells single rolls of Bed-It Tape


----------



## CharlzO

Agreed that it is definitely something that is handy to keep on hand. Never know when you might need it, and it's just ideal for so many options.


----------



## miatapaul

Maine Sail said:


> Hamilton Marine sells single rolls of Bed-It Tape


That us good to know as it can be an add on to other orders.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk


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## Skipper Jer

Zarathu said:


> I can't find butyl in my area so I will be using 3M4200 in place of it. Wish I could find butyl tape since it would be cheaper if I could buy it in less than the 100 foot roll. Why would I buy a 100 foot roll, when I only need 6 inches? And why would they only sell it that way???????????


Here, ***Buy Bed-It Butyl Tape*** Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com


----------



## budvar

I bought a roll from MainSail last year, wondered the same thing as you are right now. 

I can't tell you how glad I am to have a roll hanging around. I've dipped into it so many times for different projects. Guess what, still have a fair amount left for more projects. Like the guy above said, it doesn't wear out.


----------



## robertluster

*MANY* Thanks, I now feel confident and competent for the task... And will have to do it ONCE. Excellent info and pictures - I hope I can find other articles as good for the other tasks awaiting me as a new owner...


----------



## thereefgeek

+1. 
Thanks Mainesail. Ordered your tape, and installed per your instructions last year (after first over-drilling and potting with epoxy). 
No leaks. 

Why would anyone second guess something that has already been proven in the field?
Two words: El Cheapo. 

Not worth the hassle. Just buy the good stuff and follow the detailed instructions, and then Mainesail won't have to answer a bunch of stupid questions online...

Simple as that.


----------



## demonboy

This is a superb tutorial with excellent photographs, thank you. One question:

Should I line the entire underside of my genoa track (all 3m of it) with tape or can I get away with just doing the bolts? I've done my stay-sail track already with just tape around the bolts and it was easy to do, but only afterwards did it occur to me that perhaps I should have lined the underside.

I recorded me installing my stay-sail track, which you can see here (note that I now have white tape to do the rest of the fittings and I will not be screwing down the bolts just to put them in place as you see here). Jump to 2:08 minutes in:






On various youtube clips I've seen stanchion bases bedded with tape just around the bolts, not the underside of the fitting.

Any thoughts?


----------



## mitiempo

Bed the entire fitting. You don't want water anywhere underneath any item. For one thing in northern areas it can freeze, causing undue stress on the attachment.


----------



## demonboy

mitiempo said:


> Bed the entire fitting. You don't want water anywhere underneath any item. For one thing in northern areas it can freeze, causing undue stress on the attachment.


Here's the issue though: for every bolt hole there is a hole for the car to lock into. That goes all the way through the track. If I seal the underside that hole remains filled with water.


----------



## budvar

I'm a total nitwit with search function, so pardon if a repost:

I'm a total convert with butyl for rebedding. However, had one instance where it didn't seem the good solution. Used a wood base to raise a cheek block. I did everything else right....drill holes in deck...dremel then re-epoxy holes.

However, the butyl wouldn't stick or conform to the wood, at all. It was mahogany, with a linseed oil finish. Could it have been the finish? Ended up having to use the dredded 3-m product. Thanks for any feedback.


----------



## jimgo

Budvar, I would bet it was the finish. Not much sticks to oil (which is, actually, why you used it in the first place, though that may not seem immediately apparent).

Demon, I think you want tape under any portion that is around/near the deck penetrations. For the track, there may be drainage areas for some of the track holes (the ones that aren't screw holes). I'd probably do around those so there is good drainage. That being said, water being trapped in an open space isn't really a problem. If it freezes, it will expand out of the space, so no biggie. If it's trapped in a confined space (think of water that has wicked into the cellular structure of wood, for example), then as it freezes it expands and distorts/wrecks the space.


----------



## albrazzi

I have read most of this highly informative post, skipped the middle just for time sake. I have some deck leaks in a new to me CS30 1987. I will start pulling panels and hosing it down but can someone tell me if my Boat was sealed with the Butyl I did read CS used it to a point, after that what did they use ? I (hope) its the Genoa tracks since I'm sure they are past the recommended rebedding cycle but are there other trouble areas that may be more likely the cause. There is a noticeable amount of leakage either when sailing to weather or during a hard rain. Its NOT the chain plates.

Although belated thanks to Maine sail for a truly knowledgeable post.

FWIW I'm not new to Sailing but I am new to leaky boats.


----------



## killarney_sailor

You should be able to reach up inside the hull-deck joint and feel around. if it is butyl tape it will still be quite soft and rubbery.


----------



## mitiempo

Very probably butyl.


----------



## rjppunk

Anyone ever use this for sealing exterior speakers?


----------



## aloof

Might work. But the speaker mounting design may not develop enough force to squeeze the butyl. Maybe too flimsy between the smallish screws. Try a tiny 1-3mm (1/16 to 1/8") rolled bead of butyl in just the right spot - less to squeeze equals more sealing force.


----------



## single2coil

I used Maine sail's method on my several leaking deck hardware. Works just as he said. Perfect. Stopped several leaks I had. Thank you for the great advice.


----------



## albrazzi

Are your speakers in an area that gets a lot of spray or just rain water. I am not a fan of cutting holes (not saying you cut them) especially for something like that. I know there are speakers rated for Boats but I have never used them maybe there is a built in seal for the deck penetration. I don't see why butyl will not work I have used it on many deck hardware rebeds and its the right stuff.


----------



## rjppunk

I'm on lake Champlain in VT, so it's mostly rain water with minimal spray. Just figured I'd check since I have 4 rolls at the moment.


----------



## ReefMagnet

Weatherproof speakers should have a weather tight seal included. Speaker vibration could cause butyl tape to creep would be my concern


----------



## rjppunk

ReefMagnet said:


> Weatherproof speakers should have a weather tight seal included. Speaker vibration could cause butyl tape to creep would be my concern


They did not, just the speaker driver in a marine rated housing. I need to seal the housing to the hull. I worried about vibration of the butyl tape too, which is why I'm asking.


----------



## IStream

rjppunk said:


> They did not, just the speaker driver in a marine rated housing. I need to seal the housing to the hull. I worried about vibration of the butyl tape too, which is why I'm asking.


I've used it with speakers and it works just fine, assuming the drivers have a steel frame of decent thickness. In fact, butyl is frequently used to seal the drivers in higher end home speakers. Maine's butyl is a bit stiffer than most so pay attention to the thickness of the butyl bead and keep it even as you go around the speaker flange. You don't want a bunch of thicker areas that'll need compression before the thinner areas make contact. By extension, don't overlap the bead at the ends, just make a clean cut and butt the two ends together. The compression of the tape will join the ends, the seam of which should be at the bottom of the speaker, of course, just in case it stays open.


----------



## sailor1924

Thank you for the clear instruction and the link for purchase.


----------



## tzink

Great thread.
Would this work? Seems to be the same, for half the price, and on Prime 
Amazon.com: Dicor (BT-1834-1) 1/8" x 3/4" x 40' Butyl Seal Tape: Automotive


----------



## therapy23

tzink said:


> Great thread.
> Would this work? Seems to be the same, for half the price, and on Prime
> Amazon.com: Dicor (BT-1834-1) 1/8" x 3/4" x 40' Butyl Seal Tape: Automotive


Maybe it is the same stuff as MainSail sells and maybe it is not.

Me. I would not take the chance. I would pay MainSail for his research and knowledge. Besides, it is cheap no matter the price.


----------



## Maine Sail

therapy23 said:


> Maybe it is the same stuff as MainSail sells and maybe it is not.
> 
> Me. I would not take the chance. I would pay MainSail for his research and knowledge. Besides, it is cheap no matter the price.


Absolutely not the same stuff I sell. Bed-It Tape is specifically manufactured for this application and is my own formulation. There are hundreds of different butyl tapes, I've tested most of them, and most of them are very poor products.


----------



## overbored

I have a new Ronstan constrictor textile clutch to mount and the mounting hole does not lend itself to a good way to bed the base to the cabin top. even if it does not leak it will trap water and grow green stuff. would this be a good reason to use mainsails butyl tape. can it be used to fill the void next to the screw head. I was also thinking of installing them on a plastic bedding base with only holes in the correct location so the bedding would work better. but the screw will still fill with water.


----------



## tzink

Do the methods described here work for mounting wood too? I have some long wood pieces that mount to the sides of my cockpit, and I've pulled them off. When I put them back on I want to make sure they're sealed against water getting between the wood and the cockpit fiberglass. Would a butyl border a few layers wide work here?

I'm thinking the wood will be varnished or polyurethaned on the side that contacts the cockpit fiberglass.


----------



## __floater__

I made the mistake of using butyl tape on my boat once and it won't happen again.
Butyl migrates with the heat of the sun and will sag on vertical surfaces, eventually causing leaks, and will thin out on horizontal surfaces where it's almost impossible to spot until water shows up where it shouldn't..


----------



## VF84Sluggo

^^^^^^ Interesting...being in Florida, heat is an issue for sure.


----------



## mitiempo

__floater__ said:


> I made the mistake of using butyl tape on my boat once and it won't happen again.
> Butyl migrates with the heat of the sun and will sag on vertical surfaces, eventually causing leaks, and will thin out on horizontal surfaces where it's almost impossible to spot until water shows up where it shouldn't..


With good quality butyl that shouldn't be a problem. My deck hardware - as well as the hull/deck joint - are leak free after 38 years and all bedded with butyl.


----------



## seaner97

__floater__ said:


> I made the mistake of using butyl tape on my boat once and it won't happen again.
> Butyl migrates with the heat of the sun and will sag on vertical surfaces, eventually causing leaks, and will thin out on horizontal surfaces where it's almost impossible to spot until water shows up where it shouldn't..


Did you use the stuff from MaineSail? My understanding is that the reason he got his own formulated was to address this (and other) issue that can come from the 'cut rate' stuff you can get in auto stores or off the internet.


----------



## VF84Sluggo

Wonder if that's it...the stuff that ran/sagged in the heat was NOT from MaineSail. Perhaps __floater__ will clear this up.


----------



## budvar

I'm definitely a convert. Butyl works as described, at least for me. The only time it didn't was with wood against the gelcoat topside. Not sure why floater has had the problems he has had. Look at this thread...38 pages! Thanks MainSail!


----------



## TakeFive

__floater__ said:


> I made the mistake of using butyl tape on my boat once and it won't happen again...


Your mistake was using the cheap stuff. Follow the advice on this thread and you'll avoid repeating that mistake.


----------



## Ajax_MD

I started with automotive butyl and it did indeed, thin out in the heat and eventually allow a leak.
I bought Maine's butyl and I'm working on my second summer with no thinning out, no sagging and no leaks.

Chesapeake summers get into the 90's, sometimes pushing 100F with high humidity.
Two rolls of this stuff is enough to re-bed all of the hardware on my boat, twice over. I doubt I'll ever use it all.


----------



## Maine Sail

BubbleheadMd said:


> I started with automotive butyl and it did indeed, thin out in the heat and eventually allow a leak.
> I bought Maine's butyl and I'm working on my second summer with no thinning out, no sagging and no leaks.
> 
> Chesapeake summers get into the 90's, sometimes pushing 100F with high humidity.
> *Two rolls of this stuff is enough to re-bed all of the hardware on my boat, twice over. I doubt I'll ever use it all.*


But it will last years, as opposed to weeks, once opened and you can always share it with friends too....... (wink)

I have mentioned many times before that Bed-It tape is specifically formulated & manufactured for this purpose. It is also made right here in the USA by USA workers, including the packaging.

Years ago, before EPA regulations got much stricter, there were a number of decent butyl tapes and they were much easier to find. Today there are HUNDREDS of formulations all in an apparent race to compete for the crappiest product on the market award.. (wink)

It is actually very frustrating for me as I was the one who wrote the "how to" on this stuff, introduced tens of thousands of boaters to "bedding with butyl" and now my competitors (following on my heels) are giving the entire process a bad name by selling low grade products for huge mark ups..

Most of the butyl tapes you will find are not good performing products for this application, I know I have tested nearly all of them in my lab and compared them to the Bed-It formulation. 
Here's a thought...

Would you use this "polyurethane sealant" on your boat?









or something like this?


----------



## tzink

budvar said:


> I'm definitely a convert. Butyl works as described, at least for me. The only time it didn't was with wood against the gelcoat topside. Not sure why floater has had the problems he has had. Look at this thread...38 pages! Thanks MainSail!


I'm curious what your bad experience was with the wood-on-gelcoat application, as I just bedded two large (5"x8') sections of wood on gelcoat with Butyl. :eek


----------



## markloudin

Professional tutorial instructions with complete references to technique, theory, material lists, and tools. Superlative!


----------



## TakeFive

markloudin said:


> Professional tutorial instructions with complete references to technique, theory, material lists, and tools. Superlative!


...yet some still ignore the advice and buy the cheap stuff from the RV store, then condemn all butyl tape.


----------



## engineer_sailor

Great experience with butyl tape (bought from Mainesail). Biggest learning curve was using the proper amount and pre-shaping it before fitting the part. In one or two cases, the bolts were just long enough (not serious load bearing so no worries) to catch a thread on the bolt. Way less messy than polysulfide


----------



## Ajax_MD

tzink said:


> I'm curious what your bad experience was with the wood-on-gelcoat application, as I just bedded two large (5"x8') sections of wood on gelcoat with Butyl. :eek


I bedded two wooden cabin top grab rails with it, and haven't encountered any leaks.

As long as the wood is sanded flat on the mating surface, I can't imagine why it would matter. Hell, if you're really worried about it, simply paint a layer of epoxy on the mating surface of the wood. Once it cures, mount it.


----------



## therapy23

It works just as well with uneven surfaces. It is amazing stuff.


----------



## tzink

BubbleheadMd said:


> I bedded two wooden cabin top grab rails with it, and haven't encountered any leaks.
> 
> As long as the wood is sanded flat on the mating surface, I can't imagine why it would matter. Hell, if you're really worried about it, simply paint a layer of epoxy on the mating surface of the wood. Once it cures, mount it.


That's basically what I did, only I put 4 coats of varnish on the surfaces of the wood that are bedded. We'll see how it holds up.


----------



## loeb

Thank you for this article. You are absolutely spot on with your advice. I've always said that overused adhesive bedding compounds/sealants are the worst thing you can do to the next owner of your boat.

Butyl Rubber Tape is one of a sailors best kept secrets. I'm surprised that Dolphinite hasn't tried branding it.


----------



## backpacker6794

In Lowe's you can buy Rubber Electric tape its self ashearing for usex in comercial elect. panels..Which I've Used For Years. NEVER A Leak We Own 5 boats. The stuff is made by 3m and will be where the electrical tools are


----------



## CVAT

Maine Sail, 

Thank you for a comprehensive set of instructions, including your reasons and educated opinions as to why you should do the steps a certain way. I learned decades ago that if your going to do something make sure you do it correctly. We had a saying in our shop that failure to do something correctly would cost you 4 times the amount minimum of doing it correctly, and this was in man hours and equipment/consumables. 

I helped a friend rebed his stanchions on his boat, we followed your instructions and the results where as expected no leaks, and no worries either.

Thank you again for such clear and concise instructions, if only the PO of the boat had had such advice or better yet followed it.


----------



## utchuckd

About to re-bed my stern rail and there's some non-skid type surface that goes under the base. Should I do anything about this or will the butyl just fill it in?

Like this (except it's for the base of the stern rail, not this light):










Edit: I've already drilled and potted these holes and the ones for the stern rail.


----------



## Maine Sail

utchuckd said:


> About to re-bed my stern rail and there's some non-skid type surface that goes under the base. Should I do anything about this or will the butyl just fill it in?
> 
> Like this (except it's for the base of the stern rail, not this light):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I've already drilled and potted these holes and the ones for the stern rail.


It will fill it in and is not a problem... Don't forget to bevel the holes...


----------



## rbrasi

If I'm laying down new non skid and I've pulled the stanchions to re bed, how do I keep the holes dry while I clean the deck for painting? Do I wad up some butyl and jam it in the screw holes? 


Sent from my iPhone using Sausage-like fingers


----------



## mitiempo

Duct tape


----------



## regatta

Would like to thank Maine Sail for his butyl and all advise for best results. 
I used in my boat and after 3 years no drop of water inside my boat. I spread the word in some forum here in Italy and was like fever!!! Great. I did also a video for help someone to use butyl tape
Thanks






Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk


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## MikeK2B

I'm getting ready to pot and rebed my life lines and other miscellaneous hardware using Maine Sail's method (and his butyl tape). Does anyone have any experience with System Three's SilverTip GelMagic epoxy. I was wondering if this will work the same/as well as the outlined West Systems 105, 205, and 406 in your article?

SilverTip GelMagic - System Three Resins, Inc.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.


----------



## mitiempo

MikeK2B said:


> I'm getting ready to pot and rebed my life lines and other miscellaneous hardware using Maine Sail's method (and his butyl tape). Does anyone have any experience with System Three's SilverTip GelMagic epoxy. I was wondering if this will work the same/as well as the outlined West Systems 105, 205, and 406 in your article?
> 
> SilverTip GelMagic - System Three Resins, Inc.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any feedback.


It will work the same as thickened West epoxy. But for potting holes you want liquid epoxy first, followed by the thickened epoxy. West or other epoxy that is liquid when mixed, then thickened later would be a better choice.

The GelMagic epoxy seems to be System Three's answer to West Six/Ten cartridge epoxy.


----------



## MikeK2B

Great feedback, thanks. Despite reading Maine Sail's how-to several times, I wouldn't have realized my mistake until I was in the middle of the process. Thanks!


----------



## DenS

Great tutorial! Just ordered some,need to start rebedding deck hardware. Could this be used for resealing acrylic to hatch frame? I know there is no clamping force holding it in,but the pictures on pbase of the knife make it look very sticky and pliable. Not sure what the sealant is in the hatch frame now,but it is soft and pliable,and I suspect original to my 1982 boat.


----------



## jgragrg

I might add that on a hot summer day butyl tape can be brutal to work with because it stretches so easy.


----------



## TakeFive

jgragrg said:


> I might add that on a hot summer day butyl tape can be brutal to work with because it stretches so easy.


That's true of the cheap stuff from the RV store. But not true of the material that Maine Sail sells. Spend the money to do it right the first time. You won't regret it.


----------



## albrazzi

DenS said:


> Great tutorial! Just ordered some,need to start rebedding deck hardware. Could this be used for resealing acrylic to hatch frame? I know there is no clamping force holding it in,but the pictures on pbase of the knife make it look very sticky and pliable. Not sure what the sealant is in the hatch frame now,but it is soft and pliable,and I suspect original to my 1982 boat.


That's what was used on my hatches. The thing I don't understand is why they used Black on all the hatches and white or off white on the hull deck joint. Cleaning all the excess off as I go but why Black on deck??


----------



## TakeFive

albrazzi said:


> That's what was used on my hatches. The thing I don't understand is why they used Black on all the hatches and white or off white on the hull deck joint. Cleaning all the excess off as I go but why Black on deck??


Are you sure they didn't use a curing adhesive/sealant, like Sikaflex 295? That's very common for around hatches, etc. It's totally different stuff from the butyl tape.

Carbon black pigment has well known properties as a free radical scavenger, which when formulated into sealants, rubber leg ends, wire ties, and other products can make them much more UV resistant. That's why you often see black sealants used in high sun areas. The white stuff works fine in more shadowed areas like hull deck joints.


----------



## albrazzi

TakeFive said:


> Are you sure they didn't use a curing adhesive/sealant, like Sikaflex 295? That's very common for around hatches, etc. It's totally different stuff from the butyl tape.
> 
> Carbon black pigment has well known properties as a free radical inhibitor, which when formulated into sealants, rubber leg ends, wire ties, and other products can make them much more UV resistant. That's why you often see black sealants used in high sun areas. The white stuff works fine in more shadowed areas like hull deck joints.


Its soft like Butyl that's why I think its that. AFIK all other sealants have a cure, this peels right off with a putty knife and cleans up with acetone. Curious I admit.
Yes I don't even but the white ties for that reason.


----------



## mitiempo

DenS said:


> Could this be used for resealing acrylic to hatch frame? I know there is no clamping force holding it in,but the pictures on pbase of the knife make it look very sticky and pliable. Not sure what the sealant is in the hatch frame now,but it is soft and pliable,and I suspect original to my 1982 boat.


Butyl is not the best choice for sealing acrylic in a hatch frame.

The best choices are Dow 795, GE SG 4000, or Sika 295. The Sika requires a primer.

Which Sealants To Use | Selectplastics


----------



## Maine Sail

DenS said:


> Great tutorial! Just ordered some,need to start rebedding deck hardware. Could this be used for resealing acrylic to hatch frame? I know there is no clamping force holding it in,but the pictures on pbase of the knife make it look very sticky and pliable. Not sure what the sealant is in the hatch frame now,but it is soft and pliable,and I suspect original to my 1982 boat.


I don't recommend it for lens to frame unless it was an emergency fix to "get you home".. The proper sealant for hatch lens to frame would be a product such as Dow 795 of Sika 295UV with the special primer.

Frame to deck is fine but lens to frame I don't advise...


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## regatta

Hello !!
One more question for help about butyl... Tighten the bolts at once or in several times ....who can remove this doubt ?


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk


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## Maine Sail

regatta said:


> Hello !!
> One more question for help about butyl... Tighten the bolts at once or in several times ....who can remove this doubt ?
> 
> Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk


Several small tightenings until the butyl stops oozing out. Try not to twist the bolt just the nut.


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## regatta

Could make those small adjus Also after many days or immediately after first tighten?

Gabriele
Www.marieholm26.org


----------



## Maine Sail

regatta said:


> Also after many days?
> 
> Gabriele
> Marieholm26 "Dreamer" - Marieholm26 and If-Folkboat FanPageMarieholm26 "Dreamer" | Marieholm26 and If-Folkboat FanPage


Depends upon temperature. The colder it is the slower it oozes out.. The consistency does not change (at least if you are using Bed-It Tape) so you could re-tighten a year later if you needed to....


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## Sailbad

Mainesail, I recieved my order of three rolls last week and I am about to tackle some rebidding. I have read your tutorial twice and have a question. On my pearson 303 the halyard turning blocks, deck organizers and cabin top winches are all mounted on blocks of teak. I have removed all and i am replacing with new hardware. Im pretty sure the used "The Devils glue" to mount the wood since i cannot make it budge even with great force. Off coarse every bock was siliconed. I have scraped and sanded all the wood. Can i use the method countersink/butyl on the wood blocks as well? Thank you ahead of time for any help. Michael, Charlotte NC


----------



## Maine Sail

Sailbad said:


> Mainesail, I recieved my order of three rolls last week and I am about to tackle some rebidding. I have read your tutorial twice and have a question. On my pearson 303 the halyard turning blocks, deck organizers and cabin top winches are all mounted on blocks of teak. I have removed all and i am replacing with new bhardware. Im pretty sure the used "The Devils glue" to mount the wood since i cannot make it budge even with great force. Off coarse every bock was siliconed. I have scraped and sanded all the wood. Can i use the method countersink/butyl on the wood blocks as well? Thank you ahead of time for any help. Michael, Charlotte NC


Yes. You will bed the boat side of the block as well as the hardware side..


----------



## Sailbad

Maine Sail, Thank you. The blocks are permanently "glued" to the deck but im going to mount the hardware according to you instructions. Thanks for the reply and thank you for the well prepared instructions and photos. I feel much better prepared for this job now. We will be splashing on the 13th of april and starting our summer of multiple small trips cruising north for an eventual destination of Rockland maine. Hope to see you on the water as we pass! Michael


----------



## miatapaul

I added a roll to an order for other stuff from Hamilton Marine. I look forward to "having fun" with it. I hope Maine gets a fair amount of money from the sales through Hamilton.


----------



## Sailbad

Wanted to update. Just finished moving my boat from Yorktown VA to Portsmouth NH in two trips. First trip all storms and 2 gales. Nothing i mounted with butyl leaked a single drop. My ports and hatches on the other hand leak pretty good. Thanks again Maine Sail! Michael


----------



## albrazzi

One more plug for this product, I have a roll of tape from another source I bought before reading this thread. After less than two years its drying up just a bit toward the edges and wont come off the roll, sticks to the backing and just a PITA. I will renew and buy the right stuff. In that amount of time I have used probably 2/3 of a roll just in routine busy work. Always stored out of the sun inside if that matters.


----------



## Red Raider

Rather than using butyl tape only, what about Fel-Pro automotive water pump gasket material for the full dimensions of the deck plate? The gasket cannot be squeezed out when torqued. I'm coming from an gas engine rebuilding background and (disclaimer) not marine.


----------



## albrazzi

The idea is to squeeze it out, its not like two perfectly flat hard surfaces and the Butyl fills as it squeezes. FG will actually flex a bit and stress where the fasteners are if you use a gasket.


----------



## mitiempo

Pearson used to use gaskets under stanchions and other deck items. Over time they dried out and leaked.

Butyl never dries out.


----------



## ColdEh Marine

Our Bristol 45.5 has butyl tape used at the deck to hull joint , it is still like new and has never leaked a drop.
I use the butyl tape recommended by Mainsail for all deck gear and portlights, and have never looked back, this stuff is great !!!

Regards John Tully


----------



## s/vRambunctious

Hello all. I am new to your site. Thanks for the great article. I used butyl tape to seal an LP thru-bulkhead quick-disconnect fitting and it worked great. My question is this:
It seems that you intimate that turning the bolt/machine screw thru the butyl tape (and the 'collar' just under the head) will ruin the seal, so it is to only be used with bolts or machine screws (where you can tighten the nut from the underside without turning the bolt)...yet in the comment section, people seem to be using the tape for screwed-in hardware applications as well. I need to spin all my hatches 180 degrees (they are aft-facing and I'm heading to the tropics), and would love to use my new stash of butyl tape for rebedding them if I can. Can I just go ahead, or should I soften with a little mineral spirits (installing in south FL in aug i.e. 90 degrees)? Thanks!

-Craig Pollak
s/v Rambunctious
52 Stellar


----------



## overthehorizon

If you are in 90 degree weather the butyl would probably be the texture of soft modeling clay. Use mineral spirits only to clean up afterwards. You put enough butyl under the hatches, which isn't really that much, and everything will self seal no matter what you do with the screws or bolts. I normally use butyl in a calking gun tube but in 90 degree weather, it becomes like working with liquid cobb webs as it becomes very sticky and pulls into a long string, like soft chewing gum. Best to wear the blue nitrile gloves for easy clean up. Butyl in a calking gun tube is normally used for joining sections of aluminum gutters on the eaves of houses. It has to withstand the terrible temperatures of summer which heats the aluminum and freeing temperatures in winter. But it has to be a good U.S. made butyl as foreign made butyl in a tube is total junk and should never be used except for landfill. Installed properly, tube butyl has worked well on my boat for years, but I also use the tape which is a little less pliable but can be heated with a hair dryer.


----------



## mitiempo

Good butyl for marine use does not come in a tube. It is not soft enough to flow. It comes in a roll.

Proper butyl is shown here in detail: https://marinehowto.com/bed-it-tape/


----------



## overthehorizon

Hi Brian, Thanks for posting the "Marinehowto" link. I do recall seeing that link long ago. The butyl in a caulking gun tube has to be pliable enough to get out of the tube. If you crammed butyl tape into a caulking gun, it would have to be heated quite a bit to be able to pump it out. It is nice to have a choice of textures of butyl to use. I certainly use the tape, especially now that it can be had in the white color from marine stores. Maybe others would disagree, but I find using the tube butyl around chain plates is the best. I can pump it into the voids around the plates and build up a little mound at deck level. The tape is too stiff to do this with on my 40' boat. Whether using the tape or tube, the stuff keeps on working unlike 3M products I used to use. The 3M 4200 and all the other numbers would last a few years then have to be ripped out and redone. Even if it said "UV resistant", that was just hype.


----------



## TakeFive

overthehorizon said:


> Hi Brian, Thanks for posting the "Marinehowto" link. I do recall seeing that link long ago. The butyl in a caulking gun tube has to be pliable enough to get out of the tube. If you crammed butyl tape into a caulking gun, it would have to be heated quite a bit to be able to pump it out. It is nice to have a choice of textures of butyl to use. I certainly use the tape, especially now that it can be had in the white color from marine stores. Maybe others would disagree, but I find using the tube butyl around chain plates is the best. I can pump it into the voids around the plates and build up a little mound at deck level. The tape is too stiff to do this with on my 40' boat. Whether using the tape or tube, the stuff keeps on working unlike 3M products I used to use. The 3M 4200 and all the other numbers would last a few years then have to be ripped out and redone. Even if it said "UV resistant", that was just hype.


It really concerns me to see so many inaccuracies in your posts.

The topic of this thread is MaineSail's Bed-It butyl tape, a superior product that you seem to have never used. Bed-It is not available in a caulk gun or tube. It is not available in white color.

You have a right to say that you like the tube type the best, but your opinion doesn't mean much in this thread if you have not compared it to the Bed-It brand. Your comment that at 90 degrees it is "probably" anything is purely specuative since you've never used it.

I can't make you try it. But I can call BS on comments that have no basis in actual experience. I have tried a number of different butyl products, and MaineSail has found a formulation that combines all the best properties for the marine environment (including great adhesion and elasticity over wide temperature extremes). Not all products are the same - molecular weight and additives can vary all over the map, and dramatically affect adhesion, rheological properties, and temperature resistance. MaineSail has invested hundreds of hours testing the balance of properties of different formulations. You can pay a few bucks extra to reap the benefits of his work, or you can choose not to. But don't go making statements that have no basis in actual experience with his product.

By the way, your comments about 3M products are also inaccurate and misleading. 4200 is not marketed as UV resistant - you appear to be mixing it up with 4000UV, and I can assure you that 3M has formulated UV inhibitors into their 4000UV product - it's not just "marketing hype".


----------



## RegisteredUser

He is a new fresh SN member....been some places..
A nicer welcome would be to include the cup with the coffee offered...rather than dumped on his lap.

Imho....


----------



## Capt Len

For those boating on a budget, partial rolls of butyl tape can be found in the dumpster of most auto glass repair joints .


----------



## TakeFive

RegisteredUser said:


> He is a new fresh SN member....been some places..
> A nicer welcome would be to include the cup with the coffee offered...rather than dumped on his lap.
> 
> Imho....


Good point. Mea culpa. I didn't notice the post count. My apologies for my bluntness. I should have been more gentle. I look forward to hearing of his other experiences.


----------



## regatta

TakeFive said:


> It really concerns me to see so many inaccuracies in your posts.
> 
> The topic of this thread is MaineSail's Bed-It butyl tape, a superior product that you seem to have never used. Bed-It is not available in a caulk gun or tube. It is not available in white color.
> 
> You have a right to say that you like the tube type the best, but your opinion doesn't mean much in this thread if you have not compared it to the Bed-It brand. Your comment that at 90 degrees it is "probably" anything is purely specuative since you've never used it.
> 
> I can't make you try it. But I can call BS on comments that have no basis in actual experience. I have tried a number of different butyl products, and MaineSail has found a formulation that combines all the best properties for the marine environment (including great adhesion and elasticity over wide temperature extremes). Not all products are the same - molecular weight and additives can vary all over the map, and dramatically affect adhesion, rheological properties, and temperature resistance. MaineSail has invested hundreds of hours testing the balance of properties of different formulations. You can pay a few bucks extra to reap the benefits of his work, or you can choose not to. But don't go making statements that have no basis in actual experience with his product.
> 
> By the way, your comments about 3M products are also inaccurate and misleading. 4200 is not marketed as UV resistant - you appear to be mixing it up with 4000UV, and I can assure you that 3M has formulated UV inhibitors into their 4000UV product - it's not just "marketing hype".


My experience with butyl tape from Maine is absolutely perfect..my experience regarding the series 3M 4000 with UV inhibitors is completely miserable. It last less than 3 years, I use it to caulking the conjunction deck/hull after that ...become soft cracking and degrade. I spent one day to clean the mess and put 5000 and paint over .. so ..only in this way you can call it "uv protect"!!!. For my opinion 3m Uv is really a marketing hype!!!
Regarding butyl on chain plate... My Hallberg Rassyget black soft butyl around its and last for 30 years and no leaking and is not the type same of Maine but probably was used with pistol caulking ( would ask them which product they used.. for sure I will use again if available). 
I really didn't figure out how to use the butyl from Maine ( I got 4 rolls!!) to resolve this problem in my chainplate.









Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk


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## overthehorizon

Geeezz Take Five, you sure take your butyl quite seriously. At least only one type. Reread the posts and broaden your butyl horizon and your inability to remember the details of what you just read. Everything I say is well proven. But it is no big deal to me. I am not here to prove anything to you.


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## s/vRambunctious

Hi "Take 5".... so again....my question to you is:

In your opinion, is it OK to turn screws thru the butyl tape (bed-it brand...I also bought 4 rolls and am down to 2), or should I use something else for those situations? 

(I also used it on external chain plates for my Jordan Series drogue with seven 1/2" bolts each, and was quite pleased with the results).

Thank you again 😎⛵-Craig


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## dinosdad

overthehorizon said:


> Hi Brian, Thanks for posting the "Marinehowto" link. I do recall seeing that link long ago. The butyl in a caulking gun tube has to be pliable enough to get out of the tube. If you crammed butyl tape into a caulking gun, it would have to be heated quite a bit to be able to pump it out. It is nice to have a choice of textures of butyl to use. I certainly use the tape, especially now that it can be had in the white color from marine stores. Maybe others would disagree, but I find using the tube butyl around chain plates is the best. I can pump it into the voids around the plates and build up a little mound at deck level. The tape is too stiff to do this with on my 40' boat. Whether using the tape or tube, the stuff keeps on working unlike 3M products I used to use. The 3M 4200 and all the other numbers would last a few years then have to be ripped out and redone. Even if it said "UV resistant", that was just hype.


I like that idea of using butyl in a caulking gun for around the chain plates, I remember using the tape to seal the chain plates on my c&c 30, not fun ...using a product that would flow into any voids make sense, ( and easier ) appreciate the suggestion unlike some here .....


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## overthehorizon

Dinosdad, thanks. Some people do make me laugh. My Valiant 40 has been a test bed for a very long time. A long line of test beds. I will be signing off for a while as in two days we leave Trincomalee, Sri Lanka, for Chagos, deep into the Indian Ocean.


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## Garamond

Excellent post.


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## L124C

Unfortunately, a power boat newbie apparently mistook F for R and took out the stern rail on my Yankee while in the slip. When I removed the rail, I was surprised to see the stanchions were not bedded in anything. Shouldn't I bed the replacement rail? What is the best source for (real) butyl tape?


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## Minnewaska

L124C said:


> .....Shouldn't I bed the replacement rail? What is the best source for (real) butyl tape?


Yes, you should. Maine Sail who started this thread, sells it on his website. The link is in the OP. Not only are you assured of getting the proper quality, but I think he deserves the business for having provided the free value of the instruction in this thread.

I've purchased several rolls from him. I admit, I did purchase some hardware store variety to make a temporary sticky plug that I could remove on a project. It was intentional to have something cheap and disposable. It was clearly an inferior product.


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## MastUndSchotbruch

Minnewaska said:


> Yes, you should. Maine Sail who started this thread, sells it on his website. The link is in the OP. Not only are you assured of getting the proper quality, but I think he deserves the business for having provided the free value of the instruction in this thread.
> 
> I've purchased several rolls from him. I admit, I did purchase some hardware store variety to make a temporary sticky plug that I could remove on a project. It was intentional to have something cheap and disposable. It was clearly an inferior product.


I agree. I had bought some butyl tape from an RV store (on Amazon, I think) and it was kind of OK. Then I bought from MaineSail and I much prefer that one. A roll lasts a long time but when I run out I will surely buy from him again.


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## jvlassak

In Maine's description of how to use the butyl tape to bed hardware, he points out not to turn the bolts when tightening the nuts. What if the bolts screw into a backing plate and there is no choice but to turn them? Is butyl still recommended in that case? Background: I need to rebed a couple of stanchions that are attached with bolts that screw into backing plates that seem to be embedded in fiberglass. Thanks -


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## Maine Sail

jvlassak said:


> In Maine's description of how to use the butyl tape to bed hardware, he points out not to turn the bolts when tightening the nuts. What if the bolts screw into a backing plate and there is no choice but to turn them? Is butyl still recommended in that case? Background: I need to rebed a couple of stanchions that are attached with bolts that screw into backing plates that seem to be embedded in fiberglass. Thanks -


Make the "cones" a bit longer, really knead them into the threads and tighten slowly....


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## jvlassak

Maine Sail said:


> Make the "cones" a bit longer, really knead them into the threads and tighten slowly....


Thanks, I'll try it out. I still have some of your tape lying about.


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## jblumhorst

What is the "best practice" for installing Beckson Deck plates? I don't know if they're ABS or Polypropylene plastic or ???

Can I use Bed-it butyl with Beckson Deck Plates? They are on the top of the amas (floats) on my Trimaran. The prior owner used some kind of silicone sealant, which didn't adhere to the trim ring at all.

Thanks.


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## albrazzi

I would use a non hardening caulk like lifecaulk, you absolutely done need 4200 or god forbid 5200 3M but there are lots of non silicone marine caulks available. Butyl requires you "squish" some out while tightening so its not suitable for softer fittings such as this.


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