# Help pinpointing a leak



## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

I've attached pictures to help my non-expert description of what i'm seeing.

I have a 1984 C&C 35MKIII that seems to have leak below the waterline. I purchased the boat in the fall and never saw it on the water until last Thursday, on Saturday I delivered about 20 miles to it's home on a mooring in Lake Michigan.

The boat does not have an electric bilge pump - a new setup to me. I noticed that bilge had filled quite a bit in just 24 hours after pumping it out manually without running the engine or any rain. The engine compartment and all compartments aft of the where the deep part of the sump starts are bone dry. In other words, water was leaking out of that hole without, apparently, coming from the compartment just on the other side of that (stringer, bulkhead, floor?? not sure what it's called). On closer inspection I noticed that there is a cavity in that (I'll call it stringer) that is filling with water and then spilling over into the forward section and down into the sump. Circled in the second pic. In the third pic I have shaded where the water appears to fill up until it spills out forward into the sump. I was able to stick a sponge in the channel, down into the cavity and soak up a lot of water. I can't reach the bottom of the cavity with my finger. It take only several minutes before the water fills back to the hole and starts dripping down into the sump.

I need to do some more work before I can determine a helpful volume of water that is entering the sump within 24 hours, but I'm of the impression that a boat that is leaking below the waterline is sinking... Any thoughts on where this water is coming from??


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## marcusc130 (Oct 8, 2011)

I can't see the pics on my iPhone app, but check your stuffing box. Mine was dripping about once a second when the boat was launched this year, and I was amazed how much water built up in a short amount of time.


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

I'm pretty sure I've ruled out a stuffing box based on the fact that I can't follow any drip of water from the engine compartment back to the point in the bilge where it's filling. There's 10 feet of dry bilge between my stuffing box and where water is accumulating. But, when I can get someone else on the boat tomorrow I will definitely climb down there and watch the stuffing box.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Is that a keel bolt on the other side of the thing you're calling a stringer? Is there (or should there have been) another bold inside that stringer? Given its location, it seems to me like that might be along the keel/hull joint.

Short term solution: solar panel, battery, and 12v pump that can run dry; just let it run continuously. You could even be proactive and put a tube into the hole in the stringer.

Longer term solution: get her to a yard so you can have her hauled and inspect that area more carefully. If that isn't an option, try a camera like this:
Inspection Camera - Save on this Digital Inspection Camera

or, if that lens is too big to fit, this might work:

Digital Inspection Camera with Recorder

Another option is to get a small pencil-sized flashlight, tie a string to it, and use that to light up the inside of the stringer. Or drop a glow stick in there.

Unfortunately, in the end, I suspect you're going to wind up having to haul her unless someone knows of something hidden under that stringer.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Do you have water in your tanks? If so, add food coloring, one color in first tank to elimate, then different color in other. Also, what about head intake or head itself, close all through hulls and methodically eliminate each one. Then instrument through hulls. Before commiting to haul out track down PO and ask if it was a problem before.


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

I hadn't considered that there might be another keel boat in there, but given that there is another one right on the other side of it, it seems like they would be way to close together.

I have been in contact the PO before I purchased and I specifically asked him if he had a problem leaving it for extended periods without a bilge pump and a float switch and he said "No." He was the only owner of the boat and had it on the same mooring for 28 years before I purchased her. It did spend eighteen months hauled out from the time he last launched it until I did. Could all that time in the cradle have stressed the keel joint to a point to cause a leak where he didn't see one?


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

There are plenty of plumbing connections from water tanks - tank outlet, elbows, in-line filters, T's, valves, etc. C&C used Qest fittings back then, if one froze or cracked, or got stepped on - it could be the source. Most problems on boats are simple problems, often due to out of site/out of mind maintenance.


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

rugosa said:


> Most problems on boats are simple problems, often due to out of site/out of mind maintenance.


I sure hope that's the case for me. Given the short sailing season here (it will be hauled in October) I'd love to think this could wait until fall without too much concern.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your leak. There are many potential sources, you will have to determine the source by the process of elimination. It appears you have correctly eliminated the propeller shaft fitting and probably anything aft of the bilge as the source, although water can make its way forward or aft or laterally throughout the boat. In addition, sometimes, water will accumulate in one area of the boat, then be released and redirected by the movement of the boat through the action of sailing or motoring and the stringers and ribs in the boat.

If you were in salt water, we could advise you to taste the water to determine if it is fresh or sea water, but your boat's location in the Great Lakes makes that test unfeasible.

Check the water tank and all thru-hulls, including the head intake thru-hull, the speedo and depth sounder thru-hull, the sink drain thru-hull, the icebox drain thru-hull, the engine cooling water intake, and any thru-hulls that have been abandoned. Test and examine all seacocks for leakage. You also need to check all hoses and fittings, the engine exhaust elbow and the water pump. In fact, it is a good idea to grab the hoses and manipulate them to determine if the material is still solid. Sometimes, a hose will dry rot or develop a slow leak along the spiral seam, although it appears to be fine. With a new-to-you boat, it is certainly advisable, inexpensive and relatively easy to replace all hoses.

Next, check the potential hull structural elements entry points: the keel bolts, the rudder post, a bow thruster, if the boat has one.

In the meantime, I second Jimgo's good advice about setting up solar power and an automatic bilge pump. You need to work quickly or haul the boat. I know from a previous thread, you were plan to install 2 automatic pumps.

You have gotten some good advice. In lieu of adding food coloring, you could add some red RV/Marine antifreeze to your water tank and pump some through the head.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

How many inches of water are we talking about in 24 hours?


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

blutoyz said:


> How many inches of water are we talking about in 24 hours?


It's several inches, but that's in the deepest part of the sump. It has to rise almost 4 inches there before it's filling the next compartment aft. I'm going down today and try to get a better idea of the volume of water coming in. I'd guess a few cups...

I mentioned in a previous thread that after the bottom paint went on I noticed a very small weep on the keel. I didn't notice it until leaving the yard for the last time before my launch date. I emailed the yard and asked if someone might take a glance at it before launching the boat, but I never heard anything back and went to down the next weekend to find my boat in the water.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

While any amount is troubling, if you're getting a few cups in a day, then that's at least manageable. Assuming for the moment that this is something coming from the lake, and not from above the waterline (or from a leaking fresh water tank), then a solar panel and pump might buy you quite a bit of time. The leak should be addressed ASAP, but the panel and pump should be able to take care of that much water. Even if the battery runs dry and it rains in your area for 3 or 4 days in a row (thus not effectively producing enough current to charge the battery or run the pump) you'd still "only" have enough water to fill more of the bilge. Again, it really should be addressed ASAP, but at least the pump would buy you time.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

So you sailed 20 miles? We're you taking any water over the deck? Heeling far enough to put the rails under?

What about your icebox/cooler? Does it drain into the bilge (this one has scared me before). 

Otherwise there are only so many holes in a boat hull. I'd go find them one by one (you should know them all anyway) and look at them closely. Open all seacocks (or at least the ones you had open) and watch. 

It's notable that the P.O. didn't have an electric bilge pump. It's less likely he had this problem given that an it's more likely you're missing something more simple than a below waterline leak.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

hillenme said:


> It's several inches, but that's in the deepest part of the sump. It has to rise almost 4 inches there before it's filling the next compartment aft. I'm going down today and try to get a better idea of the volume of water coming in. I'd guess a few cups...
> 
> I mentioned in a previous thread that after the bottom paint went on I noticed a very small weep on the keel. I didn't notice it until leaving the yard for the last time before my launch date. I emailed the yard and asked if someone might take a glance at it before launching the boat, but I never heard anything back and went to down the next weekend to find my boat in the water.


It could be a small weep at the keel joint coming up from through one of the bolt gaskets. If it is that slow I would throw a bilge pump with an auto switch and let it do it's job. Many stuffing boxes weep more than that and we live with it.

Just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions...


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks for your opinion  That's why were here right?

I'm in agreement, it's a very managable intrusion because of the amount of time I spend on the boat (almost daily). I can keep up with it without even installing a float switch... 

My main concern is how much of a risk is it to just wait 4.5 months until end of season and deal with it at haul out - am I just making the repair a lot more expensive? Hauling out for a few weeks at the start of summer would be very unwelcome!


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Once you determine the source of the leak, you can decide whether to haul now or wait.

On the haul now side of the equation, you will only have a limited time period and limited daylight hours to work on it in the offseason. If it is a serious matter, like a leaking keel bolt. you might want to haul now and attend to it while you can.

On the wait side of the equation, you just got a new-to-you boat. Install the auto bilge pump and enjoy for a few months, then haul.


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

I think the weeping on the keel after painting and this issue are related in some way. I would try and eliminate all other sources for the leak and then put a sump in and deal with it in the fall.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Is your hull cored? What kind of keel do you have (lead, steel, other)?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The hole is called a "limber hole" and it is there to allow water to run past the stringers, or ribs, whichever you prefer to call them. The water should not be coming from "inside" the hole though. That stringer should be glassed into the hull at both sides and fairly well sealed.

Of course if you empty all tankage on the boat you will eliminate the question of a plumbing leak. C&C's are known for a "C&C smile", the keel is lightly attached compared to some makers and you can get a leak from the keel flexing, but I'd try to eliminate anything else before looking into that. (Either by diving to inspect, or by hauling to see if anything runs out the keel seam where you put water inside.)


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Check the stuffing box on your rudder shaft and the exhaust hose loop from the engine. To determine whether there is a leak in the exhaust line, add some food coloring to your raw water intake strainer. Further, a boat without an automatic bilge pump is a sinking in the making.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Did you make it there today? What's the verdict?


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

jimgo said:


> Did you make it there today? What's the verdict?


I made it down and it wasn't good. I waited until 6:00 to measure and after exactly 24 hours we took in exactly 2.5 gallons of water - way beyond by comfort zone...










I dug in a little further into the stringer and was able to pull out the above. Little pieces of glass and chunks of foam core.. The chunks of core are seeping out of the limber hole with the water and collecting in the bilge. Do I have an option besides hauling immediately??


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

2.5 gallons is definitly more than a few cups.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

hillenme said:


> I made it down and it wasn't good. I waited until 6:00 to measure and after exactly 24 hours we took in exactly 2.5 gallons of water - way beyond by comfort zone...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is all too easy to lose perspective and overreact after taking possession of a new-to-you boat. Install your automatic bilge pump ASAP and determine the source of the leak.

Lots of small bits and pieces can make their way down to the bilge of an older boat. Anytime work is done on the boat, pieces can fall into inaccessible areas. The remnants you see are probably the result of work done on a stanchion base, instrument installation, or some other minor work. I would not be too concerned about the small amount of material in the bilge water. After you locate the source, you should clean out the bilge as best you can so you will be aware of any current problems.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Good point, James. If you tried to diagnose my boat based on the bilge, you'd be finding lots of (already fixed) problems.

I agree, get the bilge pump set up; that's job #1. I'd also start a separate thread about tightening the keel bolts. Who knows when they were last tightened, and that may help slow/stop the leak.


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

jimgo said:


> I agree, get the bilge pump set up; that's job #1. I'd also start a separate thread about tightening the keel bolts. Who knows when they were last tightened, and that may help slow/stop the leak.


Can this be done in the water? I don't see why it couldn't, but I've never seen it done.

I may have given a bad explanation of the debris - i'm not pulling it out of the bilge, it's coming out of that void in the stringer - if I stick my finger down far enough in the limber hole i can feel the same squishy core material.

I also hope I'm over reacting as well... I just keep thinking I have thousands of dollars try to find it's way to the bottom of Lake Michigan. 3 gallons a day seems like a TON of water to me. I am really hoping I am missing something - I'll go back down tonight. Unfortunately, the only time I've been able to spend on it is an hour or two after work the last few days. The yard tells me if I have it hauled they couldn't even look at it until after Memorial Day.


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

Also, the PO tells me the bolts were torqued a few seasons and it was rebedded 15 or 20 years ago.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

We have exactly the same boat except I have the shallow bilge because I have a centerboard. Take a deep breath. These boats do not normally have really dry bilges.

The advice you are being given is sound so far. Empty the tanks. That will eliminate that as a source. Check the stuffing box drip. Check the rudder post from leakage. Its possible you have a keel bolt leak.

You should install an electric bilge pump anyway with a float switch.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Dave,
Have you ever poked around in the area Hillenme describes? The sponginess, and the amount of water, are the two things that have me a little concerned. The amount of water may be as simple as tightening the keel bolts or rebedding them. If the PO says it has been 15-20 years, and the boat was on the hard for 18 months, I'd guess that the bedding compound has finally dried out and given up the ghost. Tweaking the bolts might help as an interim step, and might also give an idea of where the problem lies.

It should also be fairly easy to diagnose where the water is coming from. Wouldn't a few simple chalk lines drawn in the bilge would show whether the water is originating locally or migrating to that area of the bilge?

I can see tightening the bolts while the boat is in the water (being careful not to go overboard), but I would think that if you're rebedding, you might want the keel supported (i.e., to be on the land). Is that the right way to do it?


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

Hey Dave, I thought you might jump in on the is one 

A few updates - the tanks were never filled, they are have been dry for probably years. No one has even taken a leak in the head yet, so there is nothing in there. The box is dry and the engine has not been run in 3 days now.

It was the following quote that really got me concerned that I had an issue beyond the just a leak



hellosailor said:


> The hole is called a "limber hole" and it is there to allow water to run past the stringers, or ribs, whichever you prefer to call them. The water should not be coming from "inside" the hole though. That stringer should be glassed into the hull at both sides and fairly well sealed.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

hillenme said:


> I I emailed the yard and asked if someone might take a glance at it before launching the boat, but I never heard anything back and went to down the next weekend to find my boat in the water.


Just noticed this...sounds like the boatyard communication standards I'm familiar with.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

Your leak is of great interest to me - I have something very similar going on. Just last weekend, I pinpointed a leak coming from inside a limber hole through a floor in much the same place as your leak. I used a snake camera to look in there and found a portion of uncovered glass mat where water is weeping through. Not much water - about 2 gallons accumulate in five days, but it is still disconcerting. I'm guessing at this point that either 1) my hull-keel joint needs rebedding or keel bolts need tightening; or 2) there is hole/crack in the gelcoat below the water line somewhere and this is where the water is migrating to, or 3) there is a leak above the waterline somewhere and this where the water is migrating to. 

I do not want to seal over the exposed fiberglass I found in the limber hole for fear that the water will just migrate further along. 

Anyway - appreciating this discussion so far.


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

johnnyquest37 said:


> Your leak is of great interest to me - I have something very similar going on. Just last weekend, I pinpointed a leak coming from inside a limber hole through a floor in much the same place as your leak. I used a snake camera to look in there and found a portion of uncovered glass mat where water is weeping through. Not much water - about 2 gallons accumulate in five days, but it is still disconcerting. I'm guessing at this point that either 1) my hull-keel joint needs rebedding or keel bolts need tightening; or 2) there is hole/crack in the gelcoat below the water line somewhere and this is where the water is migrating to, or 3) there is a leak above the waterline somewhere and this where the water is migrating to.
> 
> I do not want to seal over the exposed fiberglass I found in the limber hole for fear that the water will just migrate further along.
> 
> Anyway - appreciating this discussion so far.


Interesting, it does sound like what I'm dealing with. Your's is the second mention about a snake camera, I may have to invest in one of these. I'd like to see what's going on under the water inside the limber hole.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

This is a good one:
Milwaukee M12 12-Volt Lithium-Ion Cordless M-Spector 360 Digital Inspection Camera (Tool Only)-2313-20 at The Home Depot

Although it's another $100 if you don't already have the battery and charger (Though the M12 line is great if you happen to be in need of any new cordless tools. I couldn't live without my cordless rotary, multi-tool and right angle drill).

I have a milwaukee one but not this one with the rotating screen. It's been handy for electrical work and boat work. The rotating screen deals with the issue of camera orientation. Without the rotation I find it surprisingly tricky to keep track of up and down properly so I consider that a pretty big plus.


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

Hmm! Tightening the keel boats only works if the boat is resting on its keel. Doing it in the water??? Not to be an alarmist but you are getting quite a bit of water with the boat not under any load. Put on the backstay, load up the rig and pound through a few of those nasty LM waves and you might have a much bigger leak than you thought. Best bet is to do it right. Have it hauled and checked. Tighten bolts and really have a good look inside that stringer. Was water trapped in there during the winter and then frozen. The freeze/thaw cycle with entrapped water can can cause fissures in the glass. If the PO had it on a mooring in saltwater it probably never was a problem.

Good luck. My current C&C with the same construction has a bone dry bilge. My previous one had fissures caused by a grounding and a freeze thaw cycle. It leaked constantly and more so when loaded up under sail.


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

Sanduskysailor said:


> Hmm! Tightening the keel boats only works if the boat is resting on its keel. Doing it in the water??? Not to be an alarmist but you are getting quite a bit of water with the boat not under any load. Put on the backstay, load up the rig and pound through a few of those nasty LM waves and you might have a much bigger leak than you thought. Best bet is to do it right. Have it hauled and checked. Tighten bolts and really have a good look inside that stringer. Was water trapped in there during the winter and then frozen. The freeze/thaw cycle with entrapped water can can cause fissures in the glass. If the PO had it on a mooring in saltwater it probably never was a problem.
> 
> Good luck. My current C&C with the same construction has a bone dry bilge. My previous one had fissures caused by a grounding and a freeze thaw cycle. It leaked constantly and more so when loaded up under sail.


The delivery was an almost 3 hour beat in gusts over 30 knots. Waves were 3 - 6. It took a pounding. Perhaps that trip was enough to turn a small leak into the large one I'm seeing now. Unfortunately, getting it hauled requires taking it the same distance back to the yard.


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

Going to install an automatic bilge pump this weekend. I was thinking of installing a bilge counter as well to help me identify if it is getting worse. Someone from the yard came by the boat with me last night. He was just as stumped as to the source of the water and agreed it was not an obvious location like thru hull, water tank, keel boat, etc, but clearly under that stringer. 

His only advice was get a bilge pump and keep an eye on it and they couldn't probably haul it until Memorial Day anyway - and he couldn't tell me how long it could take to get to a repair after that.

We had a great sail for about 2 hours - 15 knots of breeze, not too cold. The boat is surprisingly easy for just the girl freind and I to double-hand. When we returned I did not see evidence that the volume of water ingress increases when under sail.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

CONDENSATION? Cold lake, warmer boat especially when closed up. Just thinking. Any results from methodically eliminating each and every thru-hull including instruments?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

It would be really educational if you dry the bilge and take it for a sail in a stiff breeze for a couple hours.
Then compare the leakage rate with the rate at rest.

If it has anything to do with the keel you would think their would be a difference.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

How did the weekend go? Did you get the bilge pump installed?


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

Installing the bilge pump on Wednesday. Got too busy this weekend. Had a great sail yesterday morning. Still falling in love with this new-to-me boat, even despite this very annoying leak.

I'm going to try tightening the keel boats. I have a freind who has access to a torque wrench, the only problem might be finding an extension to get to the nut in the deepest part of the sump (it's over 2 feet).

At this point I'm a hundred percent positive I've ruled out any tanks, thru hulls, stuffing boxes, etc. I've had two guys that work on sailboats for a living confirm exactly what I thought I was seeing, the water is coming from underneath that stringer. The only way to truly see where it's entering the boat now is too cut some access into that stringer and probably remove the foam that is ruined.

I'm hoping the tightening the bolts works.

BTW, it's hard to see in the pics, but the aft most keel bolt (the only one visible in the zoomed out pic) has about a dozen washers between the nut and the hull of the boat. Why didn't they just use a shorter keel bolt...? Is it possible the threads were damaged at somepoint and the washers were placed there to move the nut above the damaged area so it could still be torqued?

I've also seen opinions vary almost 50/50 all over the web about whether bolts are effectively tightened in the water as opposed to the hard.

Thanks!


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

Bilge pump and float switch is installed, so I have some piece of mind again.

I'm trying to work with the yard to see if I could come up one night after busy season and just haul it quickly, tighten the bolts, and see if that helps. If I notice something that needs immediate attention then suck it up and put it back in the cradle for repair. They are going to try and help me out, but said it will probably be "a couple hundred" for the haul out...


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

So we hauled out yesterday - exactly one month after launch. The bilge pump I installed kept us sailing during this time but I would guess the leak increased to about 3 gallons a day during this time. I attached some picks of what I saw today at the yard. The yard is recommending rebedding the keel. Given how backed up they are and the fact that a few high performance race boats came in a few days before us that need to be repaird by the Mac race we are looking at probably several weeks turn time on the repair. I did not see the boat until it was back in the cradle, but they tell keel was alarmingly loose when it was in the lift. I'm wondering if instead of rebedding we would be okay grinding that smile out and filling with 5200. The sailing season here ends in October and I can't imagine being hauled out for a month in June and July. August will be hot with no wind and we want to sail to Milwaukee for July 4th and anchor off Northerly Island for the Jimmy Buffett show here in Chicago, as well as start beer can racing. This ruins a great deal of the season of us and I'm heart broken. After seeing it today I'm glad we hauled, this seems to me to be stress fracture - the sump is not taking any of the load and it's all on the bolts IMHO. :hothead


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"but they tell keel was alarmingly loose when it was in the lift. I'm wondering if instead of rebedding we would be okay grinding that smile out and filling with 5200. "

If the keel is indeed "loose" that is a serious structural issue and you'd want to find out what has failed, whether it is part of the hull structure, or the keel bolts, etc. and then make sure a proper structural repair is made if needed.

If the keel actually needs to be dropped and rebedded, using 5200 as the bedding compound can actually structurally adhere the keel to the hull. Not that you'd want to skip keel bolts--but a proper 5200 bond can make the keel bolts superfluous. Or redundant.

You may want to eyeball this yourself, and get a second professional opinion.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

*that sucks. sorry to hear. did surveyor not see This*

Damn


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

*Re: that sucks. sorry to hear. did surveyor not see This*



chef2sail said:


> Damn


I'm disappointed not only in the surveyor, but the yard as well. I noticed a weep after we put our bottom paint on - it was not very large, but I brought it to the yard's attention twice and they still launched and said it could be dealt with next season. I should have gone with my instinct and delayed, but we were so anxious to get her in the water. Twice since launching we sailed in 35 knot winds and lovely lake Michigan chop (50 degrees heel at one point) and I'm surprised that when really loading up the keel like that I did not notice an increase in the ingress of water while under sail.

Regardless, yard is going to try and help me out now and get this done next week. So hopefully we are not out of the water to long. I'm still not convinced this is the whole story. The location of the leak under that stringer still doesn't make sense to me unless there is an actual crack in the hull that we won't see until the keel is dropped.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

*Re: that sucks. sorry to hear. did surveyor not see This*



hillenme said:


> I'm disappointed not only in the surveyor, but the yard as well. I noticed a weep after we put our bottom paint on - it was not very large, but I brought it to the yard's attention twice and they still launched and said it could be dealt with next season. I should have gone with my instinct and delayed, but we were so anxious to get her in the water. Twice since launching we sailed in 35 knot winds and lovely lake Michigan chop (50 degrees heel at one point) and I'm surprised that when really loading up the keel like that I did not notice an increase in the ingress of water while under sail.
> 
> Regardless, yard is going to try and help me out now and get this done next week. So hopefully we are not out of the water to long. I'm still not convinced this is the whole story. The location of the leak under that stringer still doesn't make sense to me unless there is an actual crack in the hull that we won't see until the keel is dropped.


You're wise to keep an eye out for more problems but also don't underestimate the ability of water to migrate to/through weird places. I appear to have fixed a leak that exited my stanchion base hardware by rebedding the chainplates 2' away. You'd think the water would have exited the cleat hardware that was in between the two, but apparently not.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Not sure I would go sailing on a boat with a keel that the yard described as " alarmingly loose ".

Gotta bite the bullet and drop that keel. 

If you still have a leak issue dry the bilges and sprinkle lots of talcum powder around. that will help you trace the water flow.


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

$3,500 sound like a reasonable estimate for this? I'm sure it's 10x the actual cost of some 5200 and labor to drop the keel, torque the bolts and clean up the joint when finished, but backs against the wall, I don't have the time or equipment to figure this one out on my own. This is Chicago where everything is more expensive as well.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

hill, there's no such thing as "reasonable" until you find out what the problem is. In general, keels don't just get loose, something has to cause the problem.

If they lower the keel and find damage...what's reasonable? What's the extent of the damage? Cracked hull? Keelbolts eaten by electrolysis and needing replacement? No one knows until the keel is down, or at least until the boat is hauled.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

hillenme said:


> $3,500 sound like a reasonable estimate for this? I'm sure it's 10x the actual cost of some 5200 and labor to drop the keel, torque the bolts and clean up the joint when finished, but backs against the wall, I don't have the time or equipment to figure this one out on my own. This is Chicago where everything is more expensive as well.


Seems like a lot to me. Ask Sailnet member CharlieCobra - he should know the answer.

Why can't you have it blocked, loosen the bolts yourself, have them raise the boat a little with the keel supported, re-block, work the seam between keel and bolt to ensure it separates, raise the boat again to separate from the keel and reblock, work on the joint to create a good matching seal between keel and boat, add 5200, re-bed, tighten all bolts, set and relaunch?

Or, here is a novel idea: have boat blocked an extra foot high, with some kind of removable blocking or jacked blocking under the keel, loosen the bolts and work the seal between keel and hull, drop the keel in place with side supports, work the keel-hull joint, then have the boat dropped down to the dropped keel level, or if you are able, jack the keel back up into the boat.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

What does the $3500 entail? If its truly just 3-4 hours of work, and most of it is labor, then no, $3500 isn't. By contrast, if they are cutting everything free, ripping out all of the the old fiberglass, finding the source of the water intrusion, and rebuilding any damage caused by the water, then $3500 starts to sound more realistic. Assuming $100/hour and $1000 worth of parts, equipment, etc., you're looking at 25 hours worth of work (or about 3 working days worth of work, including prep and clean-up). Depending on what they have to do, 3 days isn't that unreasonable.


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

The estimate so far is just for rebedding the keel. As I mentioned earlier I'm sure this isn't the end of the story - but we can't see anything else until the keel is dropped. There was no obvious hull damage anywhere else that would explain the leak.

I work 50+ hours a week and with a long drive to the yard doing all or even part of this on my own is not an option. The season is short and I want to be back in the water as soon as possible. We're planning some lake crossings and participating in some overnight races, so I don't want to be wondering if my first attempt at such a large project went well when we are 40 miles offshore in nasty weather.

I'm still perplexed as to how this was apparently unnoticeable to the PO or the yard when he last hauled it 2 years ago. He was ready to launch and race the Mac in it before purchasing his new boat in the spring on more or less a whim - so I don't think he was hiding anything. 

Ugh... 

Luckily I know a lot of other boat owners I can jump on with anytime, so getting out for a sail won't be difficult.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

jameswilson29 said:


> Seems like a lot to me. Ask Sailnet member CharlieCobra - he should know the answer.
> 
> Why can't you have it blocked, loosen the bolts yourself, have them raise the boat a little with the keel supported, re-block, work the seam between keel and bolt to ensure it separates, raise the boat again to separate from the keel and reblock, work on the joint to create a good matching seal between keel and boat, add 5200, re-bed, tighten all bolts, set and relaunch?
> 
> Or, here is a novel idea: have boat blocked an extra foot high, with some kind of removable blocking or jacked blocking under the keel, loosen the bolts and work the seal between keel and hull, drop the keel in place with side supports, work the keel-hull joint, then have the boat dropped down to the dropped keel level, or if you are able, jack the keel back up into the boat.


I wouldn't cobble the repair like this. It goes to your hull integrity. Its not like a patch topsides. Do you want to worry forever that this didn't really fix the problem?

As Hellosailor and others have mentioned the leaking of 3 gallons of water in a short time is no small leak. The is an issue between the keel and the bottom of the boat.

The only way to fix it *CORRECTLY* is not to cement it closed with 5200 and drop the keel back in place and tighten the bolts. You need to get the keel clear of the bottom and take a good look at what is actually leaking here. Fix that. Only then will you have a solid structure to hold the keel onto the hull with any degree of certainty.

$3500 in parts and labor for the simplest of fixes seems reasonable as Jimgo said. I am sure they will use up 16 hours of labor at least. be prepared though that they may find something major to repair once the keel is off.

Dave


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm not going to say the yard did anything wrong launching your boat; because you were not there when it was launched. However; if I were the boat owner and the yard launched my boat without my permission or presence I'd be pissed. Maybe they do things differently in areas where you must haul during the winter; but I'd at least want a phone call and an ETA for launch on the day it comes up in the schedule.

How are they supposed to know if the boat is taking on water unless someone spends some time aboard immediately after it's launched? How are you supposed to know if they did anything to damage the keel while moving the boat?

You might consider talking to your insurance company; find out if they would cover your losses if the bolts are not failing due to corrosion or any other maintenance issue. If you remove the nut over that bolt that has 10 washers under it; you might find a threaded rod welded to the original bolt with failing threads. That would point towards failing keel bolts at the keel/hull joint.

On the issue of the location of the leak (inside the stringer); it should be a sealed bilge section there. There should be no holes to the keel/hull joint inside the stringer to allow water in even if the keel/hull joint has a gap. I suspect that since the core is disintegrating inside the stringer; bilge water got in there and was not removed before. Then it froze and expanded causing a crack to the bottom of the keel stub.

If the keel was 'alarmingly loose' on haul out; what was it's condition when they launched it? What was it's condition when it was hauled 18 months ago? You could not have caused this sort of problem by sailing it a few times (even if you sailed it hard). I suspect that the owner knew there were problems with the keel bolts; tried 3 times in the fall to sell it (holding off during the regular season so it would not be noticed for 8 months); and unfortunately you were the person who bought his problem.

I'm really surprised your surveyor did not mention the stacked washers on the keel bolt. That should be a dead giveaway that something is not right with the keel. If he is a SAMS or NAMS accredited surveyor; there is insurance they carry to cover them if they miss something.

You need to get the keel dropped and have the stub checked by a surveyor who knows naval architecture and can recommend a way of repairing the boat.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

KeelHaulin said:


> I'm not going to say the yard did anything wrong launching your boat; because you were not there when it was launched. However; if I were the boat owner and the yard launched me without my permission or presence I'd be pissed. Maybe they do things differently in areas where you must haul during the winter; but I'd at least want a phone call and an ETA for launch on the day it comes up in the schedule.
> 
> How are they supposed to know if the boat is taking on water unless someone spends some time aboard immediately after it's launched? How are you supposed to know if they did anything to damage the keel while moving the boat?
> 
> ...


All great points. Especially the insurance and surveyor one.

I think the holes the OP is referring to are the limber holes in the cross pieces of the frame in the bilge. I have the exact same boat as he does (C&C35 MKIII). Whether these are actually called structural stringers, I am not sure ( I think they are). This frame is what the floor is screwed into. The limber holes allow the water in the boat to drain into the bilge.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

I'd say yes that they are structural; there is lots of load on the keel stub due to the static weight of the keel; and when the boat heels The hull would want to deform in the bilge without the cross pieces. It looks like C&C made them large thin box sections in newer hulls to minimize weight while maintaining rigidity. My older C&C 41 does not have this construction method; the stringers are glassed over wood; and only ~2" wide. It seems to me that the foam used to core the box section is breaking down due to bilge water getting in. While the foam is not structural, any water that fills the void will be problematic if it freezes. I'd consider re-filling the void with expanding foam and then glassing in the limber holes so water can't get in from the surrounding bilge. But that's not a proper fix for the OP if there is a crack to the exterior. The crack needs to be repaired first.


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

I also have a 35/3. The keelbolt in the photo is not original - its too clean and shiny. It also looks taller than the original. Is there some sort of sleeve under the washer? Its possible someone already tried to rebed the keel and did a lousy job.
Technically, the supports that run laterally are "floors". Stringers run fore and aft.
If it were a wood boat, I'd say use the sawdust trick - put lots of sawdust in the water and let it get sucked into the source of the leak. Doesn't fix it, but stops the water.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I've discussed this mystery at length with my marine grade advanced composite Magic8Ball. And the 8Ball said to me, when in doubt, apply Occam's Razor and remember, the razor is free but you've got to buy the blades.

The PO, like all PO's, treasured the boat and concealed nothing.

The surveyor, like all surveyors, was a highly experienced professional who never drinks on the job or within twentyfour hours before doing a survey, and he missed nothing.

There was nothing wrong with the boat when you bought it or had it surveyed.

But when it was being hoisted in the Travel Lift, or set back down again, a gravitational anomaly bounced it on the keel and that's caused things to "come oft agley" creating the leak.

Seems like the simplest explanation to me, it just wasn't obvious until the 8Ball expanded my conciousness.

Meanwhile, what has to be done, has to be done.


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

KeelHaulin said:


> I'm not going to say the yard did anything wrong launching your boat; because you were not there when it was launched. However; if I were the boat owner and the yard launched my boat without my permission or presence I'd be pissed. Maybe they do things differently in areas where you must haul during the winter; but I'd at least want a phone call and an ETA for launch on the day it comes up in the schedule.
> 
> How are they supposed to know if the boat is taking on water unless someone spends some time aboard immediately after it's launched? How are you supposed to know if they did anything to damage the keel while moving the boat?
> 
> ...


This yard launches probably 800 to 1000 boats a season and they want to go in the first two weeks of May, so there isn't much personal attention. There is a twenty four hour "float test" - in other words they launch at least 24 hours before your departure date. Apparently, I now know this must mean if it doesn't sink in 24 hours they assume it is good to go. The mast step was completed after it was launched and we had a TON of rain that day so I was not that surprised to find a large amount of water in the bilge as I had no doubt it was raining into the boat as they were working on this. The next day after our delivery it was apparent to me we had a problem.

I called the surveyor and mentioned the location and volume of the leak and he told me "boats leak" deal with it in the fall. Clearly unsound advice, which I obviously did not follow. Surprisingly his credentials were impeccable (Designed, Constructed and Operated a Research Submarine; Served 36 years in the United States Navy retired Captain of M.O.T.U-2 the Navy's inspection team for Submarines and Surface Ships; Twenty Year Member of Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers; etc, etc...) The boat was never surveyed in the water. I purchased it in November when all boats here are hauled out and could not do a sea trial on the boat.

The PO was ecstatic to see it sold and staying in Chicago and has asked to come sailing on it. He's the original owner of this 30 year old boat. I think if he had been trying to knowingly dump a money pit on someone he wouldn't have wanted to remain so close to it and he clearly still has a sentimental attachment to the boat, so I honestly believe this was a problem that he was unaware of.

I'm with you on the washers, they scream repair job - they are far enough aft in the bilge section that they can not be seen without unscrewing and pulling up a section of the floor - a task the surveyor did not do, although it takes about 10 seconds. Regardless, he didn't see them to inspect them.


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

chef2sail said:


> All great points. Especially the insurance and surveyor one.
> 
> I think the holes the OP is referring to are the limber holes in the cross pieces of the frame in the bilge. I have the exact same boat as he does (C&C35 MKIII). Whether these are actually called structural stringers, I am not sure ( I think they are). This frame is what the floor is screwed into. The limber holes allow the water in the boat to drain into the bilge.


Dave is correct I'm referring to the limber holes. Our bilges look very different as chef has the c/b model.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

hillenme said:


> This yard launches probably 800 to 1000 boats a season and they want to go in the first two weeks of May, so there isn't much personal attention. There is a twenty four hour "float test" - in other words they launch at least 24 hours before your departure date. Apparently, I now know this must mean if it doesn't sink in 24 hours they assume it is good to go. The mast step was completed after it was launched and we had a TON of rain that day so I was not that surprised to find a large amount of water in the bilge as I had no doubt it was raining into the boat as they were working on this. The next day after our delivery it was apparent to me we had a problem.
> 
> I called the surveyor and mentioned the location and volume of the leak and he told me "boats leak" deal with it in the fall. Clearly unsound advice, which I obviously did not follow. Surprisingly his credentials were impeccable (Designed, Constructed and Operated a Research Submarine; Served 36 years in the United States Navy retired Captain of M.O.T.U-2 the Navy's inspection team for Submarines and Surface Ships; Twenty Year Member of Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers; etc, etc...) The boat was never surveyed in the water. I purchased it in November when all boats here are hauled out and could not do a sea trial on the boat.
> 
> ...


Everything you are saying here makes sense; you are right about the PO, seems honest if he wanted to go sailing with you after it splashed this season. Without this added background info I'd be suspicious as I stated before, but I can understand where there is more reason to think that he just didn't know there was a problem (if it is a keel bolt issue). Sometimes owners also have their boat repaired by a yard without really reviewing what was done if they are not mechanically inclined. This leaves them relying on the yard for the work being done correctly and there are lots of yards that don't do very good work.

As to the Surveyor; I question his statement about "boats leak". Boats don't leak except at the prop shaft seal; and leaks inside of the bilge and inside one of the floors (sorry for calling them stringers earlier) is not a small issue. Since he was not able to see this problem since the boat was on the hard when it was surveyed he's not responsible for not finding the problem. I was not aware that the aft section of the floor was screwed down. Some surveyors will open up areas if they can be easily removed/replaced others only do what's able to be opened without tools. Unfortunately since it was not visible without unscrewing the fasteners holding the sole down he is also not responsible for not seeing the strange keel bolt that is a suspect repair.

It could be a combination of factors like keel bolts going bad, and the yard may have dropped it causing the keel bolts to fail further. Unfortunately without a witness to them moving your boat (both on haulout and launch) it would be difficult to prove unless there is some visible damage to the keel. Still, you could put in a claim to your insurance and see where it goes. You did nothing to cause this so it would not affect your insurance rates if you did recover the cost of repairs. If you have the insurance company look at it they will hire a surveyor to look at the boat so you won't have to.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Have you asked you PO specifically and clearly?
What were the circumstances such that the keel boat has all those extra washers?

I would want to know the details.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Could this be caused by some wood or plywood in the keel stub rotting and allowing the keel to drop. The washers then being fitted to take up the slack.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

C & C's do not have wood in the sump. Keel stub is solid fiberglass laminate. Use of additional washers was not uncommon if stud thread did not extend down far enough.

The laminated in place frames/stringers were layed up over foam forms, the same stuff florists use to stick stems in floral arrangements. For form only, not structural. After years of water & bilge debris penetrating it will deteriorate, but the laminated structure remains intact.

Owner should be evaluating cause of keel being loose (not just that it is loose) - severe previous impact (look for fairing repair at bottom leading edge of keel, upper aft edge, laminated frame/stringer repairs in sump) or keel bolt deterioration. Any experienced yard familiar with this type of construction will look at these as first & second obvious causes. The smile is enhanced in your case due to loose keel spliting the fairing material on the joint.

Keel bolts don't undo themselves. There is an underlying cause. Aside from any undetermined structural repairs it is a nuts & bolts installation with an sealing/bonding material between. Finished off with refairing, barrier coat & antifouling.

Talk implying how easy it is to do aside - it is labor intensive, requires the right equipment, and often includes grinding to bare glass to create clean bonding surface. IMHO don't discount this as an unskilled labor project. Experienced yard skills are needed.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

I feel for you brotha.

The thing that concerns me is hiring someone to fix an unknown problem and putting yourself at their mercy. Once you pay $3,800, you will surely pay another $3,800 or maybe $5,000 to get your boat put back together. They will have you over the proverbial barrel. What percentage of the value of the boat will you pay to "fix" it? I certainly would not take it back to the same outfit that launched it. Tough economic times cause people to do things to ensure their own survival at others' expense.

At least start the project as a DIY job. Bring in a different marine surveyor once you drop the keel and find out what kind of repair is really required, before you pay someone a large sum of money.

It might be best to write off the rest of this season. Put the boat in the most convenient place for you to work on it, with the limited time that you have.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Crowley's Boat Yard in Chicago where the OP launched from I beleive is a very reputable place, Much like Zanheisers, Harbor Haven, Port Annapolis or Hartage in our area. They have more business than they can handle. I would supervise their work carefully.

This problem you have I would use a professional as was mentioned before.

Dave


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

chef2sail said:


> Crowley's Boat Yard in Chicago where the OP launched from I beleive is a very reputable place, Much like Zanheisers, Harbor Haven, Port Annapolis or Hartage in our area. They have more business than they can handle. I would supervise their work carefully.
> 
> This problem you have I would use a professional as was mentioned before.
> 
> Dave


Crowley's is very busy. Staying on top of them is key, as you said Dave. I called three days in a row before getting a hold of the glass guy but I'd rather think that he's out there completing work orders on the boats that are holding us up than chatting with customers, so I'm not too upset. I would only consider having a pro do this and with as much work as they have going on there I'm sure there is no way they are in the habit of giving precious lift time to some DIYer who will take three times as long to do the job.

The OP did launch from Crowley's and the glass guy I spoke with today has been there 27 years, so he's handled anything that was done on the boat. He said he knows he has never touched this keel, apparently he's sure he'd remember it. It's never been rebedded, he's the only one who would have done it. While he was also perplexed by the stack of washers on the keel bolt he wasn't convinced it indicated a repair. As I said, he claims he would have been the one to do it and wasn't certain it wasn't done by C&C.

Unfortunately, I'll also have to pay to take the mast down so they can get to that keel bolt, but hopefully they help me out on price for that.

He said there is a chance there is not also hull damage under the keel, despite the odd manifestation of the leak, so fingers crossed on that.

They are going to do what they can to get us back in by next weekend, but it sounded like that would take a miracle. I know they have some bigger, much more expensive boats that need work done before the Mac, which we aren't doing this year.

I'm devastated to be out of the water, I was on it almost daily before this. I'm glad we are getting it taken care off though, and if this guy has spent 27 years at a yard with 1,000 boats I'd have to guess he's seen just about everything. Also, considering how much more expense Crowley's is than the other half dozen or so yards in Chicago he must be darn good at what he does. I have no worry the work won't be done correctly.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

In the end, its your boat, and the most important thing is that YOU are comfortable a) with the work being done and b) with the price it will cost to have it done. It sounds like you've found a good person to do the work. Good luck! Keep us posted!


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Have they diagnosed the leak yet?


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

When they went to drop the keel they were able to turn the front nut by hand (this one was under the mast, or i would have figured it out on the water). He said when lift the boat off the keel it was like taking your foot out of shoe. It slipped right off, no wedges or anything needed. There was essentially no caulk left in the joint anywhere. There is no fiberglass damage and he is still kinda baffled by where i see the leak, but the only culprit seems to be the keel based on what i just described. He said the front bolt had definitely been wet, and the plate under the nut was corroded. The bolts all looked fine. They well rebed the keel and hopefully I'm back in the water this weekend. Been bouncing around for two weeks on random boats; Dafour 40, Dafour 36.5, Catalina 30, C&C 30, old 74 Morgan 30 that looks like a tank.... I now know once you have your own boat nothing else is quite as satisfying to sail, even a one year old Dafour 40 that's nicer than my apt....


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

That's about as good as you could have hoped for! Fair winds and a dry bilge


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Excellent news! Sail On


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Good news


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## Davenire (May 14, 2012)

I have to assume that this is great news. Will you get change back from the $3500? You also said that the front bolt was under the mast, I have to assume the surveyor could not see or even get his fingers on it. Did you say anything to him that you can't take back?

Not having found my special boat yet, this kind of thing gives me the willies everytime I think of giving some one the balance in my bank account.

Wishing I were in your shoes, take a nice long down wind leg for me.


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## Gladrags1 (Apr 9, 2003)

My comment is about a surveyor who doesn't remove the floor boards to check under them. I find that incompetent. What did he check then, everything in sight, nothing behind covers? Isn't this why you hire a surveyor, to discover stuff you don't know and protect you from stuff you can't see? The surveyor works for the buyer. I would mention your displeasure about that. I have a friend who bought a boat recently who hired a surveyor with a reputation for aggressively evaluating a boat and her system. The seller refused to allow the surveyor onboard. My friend didn't buy the boat. Guess what the seller was trying to hide? A major area of deterioration on the hull. Sheesh! Just my $.02 worth. Interview and get reviews of prospective surveyors.

Tod


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks for all the help and support guys! As to the surveyor, my main concern was that he may have missed a repair on the keel because of the odd setup of the aft bolt, but the yard tells me as baffled as he is by it he couldn't see any evidence it had ever been dropped before, visually or in the yards files. The cost sounds like it will be right on $3500. They aren't charging for the mast step, that's a big help.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

I seem to recall one wise poster on this thread who advised this as a DIY job, despite the crowd's criticism of his suggestion, it appears he was absolutely correct!


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

James, even broken clocks...



(Ducks and runs)


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

I would have loved to make this a DIY project just for the experience, i have friends who have undertaken much more involved boat projects and would love to help, but I'm willing to pay so i can spend my time sailing the boat this summer as opposed to fixing it on weekends. I have no doubt she'll present plenty of winter projects for me on haul out


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

DIY would mean doing it all, presuming owner has his own yard & travellift, you still have to have help.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

good update...

At least now you won't have to worry about your keel falling off...one less thing


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

blutoyz:1047808 said:


> good update...
> 
> At least now you won't have to worry about your keel falling off...one less thing


ha ha. It's a nice thing not to have to worry about!


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

Attached pic


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

When does that keel get wet?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

How could this have possibly occurred without anybody knowing anything about anything?

(I don't know nuttin' about nuttin', I swear!)

Do nuts suddenly loosen off keel bolts to this extent of 2 gallons of water ingress per day?

Now, you are out $3,500 for a repair you could have done yourself with a socket wrench, a tube of 5200, a haulout, and a few hours of work. Maybe you are making $10K a day, so it is worth it to you?

It all sounds a bit suspect to me. You buy a boat. It is launched in your absence. It suddenly displays a serious leak. You are separated from $3,500 of your hard-earned cash.

(Darn my critical thinking skills; I would probably be happier if I were more trusting/gullible like most folks.)


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## hillenme (Oct 11, 2012)

jameswilson29 said:


> How could this have possibly occurred without anybody knowing anything about anything?
> 
> (I don't know nuttin' about nuttin', I swear!)
> 
> ...


Well, I'm certainly not happy about the situation, but there isn't a whole lot I can do about it. I had a survey by a surveyor with seemingly impeccable credentials. The previous owner told me the boat was dry and I believe him as he didn't have a bilge pump on it. I also believe he wasn't aware of a keel issue as he was prepared to take it on a race to Mackinac. Not to mention, the fact he is a member at our yacht club, checks in constantly on the boat, invited us sailing on his boat and lives on the North Shore there's no logic to him trying to make a dirty profit on the boat.

It terms of the boat launch happening outside my presence, maybe this is an odd thing at smaller boat yards, but I don't think many folks in Chicago see their boats launched. We have the largest public marina system in the nation and I'm at the largest yard in the city - in spring they launch boats morning till night and raft them 4 deep on docks - some weekends in May there are 60 boats departing each day. My anger is over the fact that I emailed the yard about the weep I saw on the keel and never heard back before the launch.

I'm also curious how a keel bolt comes that loose, but, as it was under the mast I didn't observe it.

The $3500 stings, but, when I bought a 30 year old C&C I hoped to keep for another 10 or 15 years I knew at some point I would be spending money to rebed the keel - just didn't think it would be a month after launch. It would have been nice to save the money and gain the experience of doing this myself, but it's also nice to have the piece of mind it was repaired correctly as we plan on crossing the lake several times this summer, will Mac race the boat, etc. I find it odd to suggest that unless I make $3.65 million a year I shouldn't be able to part with $3500 for a boat repair.

Bottom line, I'll stop short of agreeing I'm in this situation because I'm too trusting or gullible (my gf thinks i'm the most cynical person in the world ). I live in a city where I can't walk half a mile without some one trying to run some lame hustle on you; "my wife's pregnant, lend me bus fare to get to the hospital" or "shine your shoes up for $5" and some guy sprays soapy water on your shoes and wipes them with a filthy rag then demands money.

Lesson learned is that next boat I buy, I'll want a sea trial, maybe with a surveyor along on that as well. My anger here is directed at the yard, I'm positive they should have noticed this when they lifted it out of the cradle (no one could give the keel a quick shake before dropping in the water?)


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

I'm surprised there was no bedding between the keel and stub. We used to dry fit deep draft keels in the plant (custom & production) when shipping height was a problem. But they were 41' or longer. After dry fitting the keel went on the shipping trailer and the delivery yard would bed, install, fair & paint. Consider that the joint is faired out after installation, how did the bedding wash out and disappear? Was it shipped without a keel, was it NOT bedded at all and a disaster laying in wait all this time . . . QC at the plant was strict, it's highly unlikely the boat left NOTL with an unbedded keel installed.

Having a crucial keel bolt under the mast was just stupid, kinda like having to drop a Vette engine to change spark plugs.

Some of the C&C custom boats with very deep draft keels had a bolt-on shoe with windows in the main keel for bolting the shoe on. It made shipping the boat from one race site to another easier/cheaper (uh, right).

At least now you can sleep at night knowing the problem has been fixed, and know your 10K per day is available for your next adventure


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