# "Buyer's Market" - any data to back it up?



## hazmat17 (Sep 27, 2007)

It is "common knowledge" that it is now a buyer's market for new and used boats. It is often repeated here, as well as the popular press.

Does anybody have any data to back it up - plots of final sale prices, days on the market etc. Trying to get my hands around how much I might want to offer if I come across the right boat. Like anyone I don't want to pay too much now, especially if selling prices are in a free fall - better to wait (unless it is the perfect boat).

As a single data point, A Freedom 28 for sale in RI was appraised at $27 to $30K in May of 2008 as part of a survey the source being the BUC value book. I did an appraisal via BUC online today, value listed as $23.7 to $26.3K for average condition. NADA $22.5 to $25.3K, BoatUS $22.3K. 

Seller is asking $29.5K. I think they are a bit out of line, while appearing to be in fine shape, she needs new sails and a new dodger and doesn't have any upgrades to speak of.


----------



## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

It is the rare seller that doesn't ask more than what book value is. While economic conditions can make sale prices lower, it is more often a case of how bad the seller wants to make the sale that determines price. That is my experience, other's may have different ones.


----------



## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

You dont need a spread sheet to get the facts..walk into any brokerage and look at their board ..it will have "Priced Reduced" on almost every listing..
Any down turn in the economy will be a buyers market..with some associated "distress" sales along with it.

There is another thread of a guy looking to buy a J105 and he is wrestling with this same issue of boat value for the dollar in this market.

But with any luxury item and thats what boats are... allot of thoes people (as Chuck mentioned in that thread) can sit out low ball offers.

I have a 30' sea ray for sale at 7K under appraisal..It can sit and collect dust before I'll go to much lower. And no... no one has even made an offer on it in 6 months.

Yes its a buyers market but only a "killer of a deal market" from the right seller.
And that happens all the time Just more when people start losing their jobs and such.

So in my sea ray example lowering the price a little will do little good..lowering it substantially more will only attract "The killer of a deal mentality buyer" I can wait thank you very much...


----------



## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

I just received a notification on a Sabre 30 yesterday from my broker at 8:15AM. It sold to someone else less than one hour after being listed for the full asking price; which I learned when I said "I want to see it!" Sounds "seller's market" to me on that one. ;-)

With homes it's location, location, location. With used boats it's condition, condition, condition. 

Brokers have sources for sell price vs listing price. Most everything "routine" seems to be dropping 10% in the last six months. With the latest news, God knows? Is your money safer in a boat or the bank?

I'm planning on still buying a boat.

Those that need large loans? THAT will crimp the buyers and could reduce new boat sales - bringing UP the used boat market.


----------



## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

There is certainly no shortage of selection out there right now and given the current financial climate you may get lucky. The current financial storm will pass as has happened before and then the market will improve. 
There are many baby boomers reaching retirement age these days and they may be looking for a luxury toy such as a boat instead of a motorhome and they will eventually soak up the surplus boats and then die and the surplus will be for sale again.


----------



## anthony11 (Aug 19, 2008)

Delirious said:


> I just received a notification on a Sabre 30 yesterday from my broker at 8:15AM. It sold to someone else less than one hour after being listed for the full asking price; which I learned when I said "I want to see it!" Sounds "seller's market" to me on that one. ;-)


I smell a set-up or pre-sale there.


> Those that need large loans? THAT will crimp the buyers and could reduce new boat sales - bringing UP the used boat market.


The new boat market is already tiny compared to the used boat market, so I'm somewhat skeptical that a shift from new to used will be more than a drop in the proverbial bucket.

I've heard a prediction that powerboaters will be moving to sailboats in a big way because of fuel costs (that 30' Sea Ray above in this thread costs something like $500 to fill the tank, no?) and that this will result in a surge in sailboat prices. I'm skeptical about that too -- for many owning a boat isn't about actually traveling across the water, and my thought is that this is substantially the case with powerboaters and their penile stand-ins, so the ones who aren't so rich that they can ignore fuel prices will either let their boats sit idle even more than they usually do, or sell them and get out of boating altogether.


----------



## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

anthony11 said:


> I've heard a prediction that powerboaters will be moving to sailboats in a big way because of fuel costs


Sounds great, Can you help me convince my wife to switch? lol.

Personally I think the sitting idle or getting out of boating all together is probably more likely. Most powerboaters I know wouldn't be interested in learning to sail. I think they'd probably end up getting out of boating.

Except of course for the 1000HP 190decibel penises running up and down the lake.


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

I can tell you that there are at least a dozen boats with the same asking price listed on Yachtworld from when I saw them over 1 year ago. Some that I expressed interest in if the price were more in line with book values.

Clearly, if you really want to sell a boat in this environment it better be a rare gem, or you best lower your expectations.

Yesterday, I heard a news article that home values have slipped 16%. Not sure if that is a national average but it has to indicate which way boat prices have moved. On a personal note I calculated my life savings has decreased 23% since June when I bought my boat. That probably would have taken me out of the markert if it had happened before I signed on the dotted line. No doubt there are many feeling the same thing as the market takes away years of gains.


----------



## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

I have been looking at boats lately and the brokers have said there are really two different markets - People who are selling generic production boats are more often inexperienced sailors than are those selling higher end boats - You MIGHT find a good deal on one of those generic boats but it is more a case of prices not rising at all and more sellers willing to negotiate. The higher end boats were more often bought by people who knew exactly what they were doing, are people who are actually sailing their boats all the time and are willing to wait for the right buyer. So that end of the market tends more just to freeze up for a while.

I know I know. The brokers are trying to tell me to buy the boat I am looking at for what the sellers want - But as a point of reference, I tried to look at a Caliber last week that was under contract within two weeks of listing. It was in good shape and well equipped - and it sold for about 10% under asking.


----------



## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

According to my broker a lot of recent sales are to overseas owners whose economies are still doing well and where the exchange rates to the dollar are beneficial. I am both selling and looking and it certainly is a buyer's market. I've told my broker to keep my asking price in line with the others (secure in the knowledge that my boat is better shape than most and if a real buyer should come along it will sell before the others) and the brokerage has suggested I drop my price twice in the past months in order to remain competitively priced. On the buying side, I've seen some even larger drops in asking prices than I have had to do; and a recent preponderance of "serious seller", "must sell", "dropped price due to lifestyle changes", etc. quotes hinting at sellers really needing to get rid of their expensive toys that were bought in good times with heavy loans. The boats that I am looking at are >45 feet and thus in higher price ranges and that might be a completely different market from the ~30 footers.


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

sck5 said:


> I have been looking at boats lately and the brokers have said there are really two different markets - People who are selling generic production boats are more often inexperienced sailors than are those selling higher end boats...snip...


I'm not sure sailing experience has a lot to do with the market. Experienced owners/sailors are always better postioned to know what they want and to recognize a deal than less experienced folks, but in todays market the vast majority buyers are not going to be able/willing to pay what they would have last year. Everybody's buying power is less now than it was last year regardless of sailing experience.


----------



## RandyonR3 (Oct 2, 2005)

I think you hit the nail on the head with the life-style change..Its not the boat market falling as much as its the economy going to crap and some boat owners are selling their toys to make ends meet.
You see it every year in those in the construction industry, as in the spring when the funds are comming in, there is a boom in 4x4 trucks and speed boats and in the fall, the same people are selling the toys to make ends meet as they're out of work and the cycle goes on the next year.
As for the swap between power and sail for a savings.. I figured it out a couple years ago as my brother has a large power boat compared to our 42 foot sail boat..
Every 10 to 15 years we can figure a new set of sails and standing rigging at 25 to 30 thousand dollars. and figureing fuel cost, thats 2 thousand dollars per year for the power boat for fuel and maintance.
You can buy a-lot of fuel and do a-lot of maintance for 2k per year..


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

_"You can buy a-lot of fuel and do a-lot of maintance for 2k per year"_

Ummm, 
on a 32ft sundancer, with twin 7.4's, (200 gal. tanks @ $4.50 a gal) that'll buy 2.5 tanks of fuel, just about enough for 3 weekends of putting around.


----------



## jadkkd (Aug 8, 2007)

Just look at the financial institutions that are gettiing out of the boat lending business. Citizens Bank, and Keybank announced last Friday they are out. The process alone is going to depress the market.


----------



## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

RandyonR3 said:


> ...As for the swap between power and sail for a savings.. I figured it out a couple years ago as my brother has a large power boat compared to our 42 foot sail boat..
> Every 10 to 15 years we can figure a new set of sails and standing rigging at 25 to 30 thousand dollars. and figureing fuel cost, thats 2 thousand dollars per year for the power boat for fuel and maintance.
> You can buy a-lot of fuel and do a-lot of maintance for 2k per year..


Maybe when the fuel was <$2/gal. Most boaters were paying close to $5/gallon this past summer.

Also, a 42 footer is a fairly large sailboat, about 3X the maintenance cost of a 30 footer. For our 31 footer, I bought a new genny AND mainsail (to replace sails that were original 18+ years) for about half the cost of my B-I-L's annual (4 month season) fuel budget on a Trojan 33. He needs about $2K in fuel for a one week family vacation. Times have changed.


----------



## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

JohnRPollard said:


> Maybe when the fuel was <$2/gal. Most boaters were paying close to $5/gallon this past summer.
> 
> Times have changed.


That's the truth. The most I paid this past summer for fuel was $4.50 and they were the cheapest on the lake. Almost all the fuel docks on the lake had to start selling by the half gallon since their pumps wouldn't go any higher than 3.99/gal. I wonder how long it will be before they have to start selling by the quart.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

On the bright side, if you do not need a loan or are pre-qualified for a loan, and you can make your offer contingent on survey and sea trials alone (without making it contingent on financing) then you've got something extra to offer the seller, who won't have to wait and see if the deal can get past the financing.


----------



## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

ckgreenman said:


> That's the truth. The most I paid this past summer for fuel was $4.50 and they were the cheapest on the lake. Almost all the fuel docks on the lake had to start selling by the half gallon since their pumps wouldn't go any higher than 3.99/gal. * I wonder how long it will be before they have to start selling by the quart*.


In all likelyhood the next unit of measure should be by the *Litre,* like most of the rest of the world.


----------



## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

CaptKermie said:


> In all likelyhood the next unit of measure should be by the *Litre,* like most of the rest of the world.


Bwahahaha. Good one.

Actually I think I would prefer metric. As long as we don't get stuck halfway like the did in Great Britain. If you order a beer in a pub it comes in a pint. Order a Soda, and it's 330ml. Distance is measured in miles but Gas is sold in litres. And don't get me started on "stones"


----------



## jgeissinger (Feb 25, 2002)

*Buyer's market. Yes.*

Here in Southern California, and probably in other all-year sailing locations like Florida, the major boat expense is simply the parking space. For example, slip rents in Dana Point are over $600 a month for a 35 footer, and progressively higher as the size increases. With insurance, bottom cleaning, the occasional haulout and the boat stuff that is always needed, it's a pretty big expense, even if the boat is long since paid for. Face it, this is a luxury. If it comes down to some other needed expense in these economic times, vs. the boat, guess which is going to go. There are a lot of boats of various sizes on the market in this area, and some stay on the market a very long time. Fairly frequently, some smaller (less than 30 ft.) boats are actually offered for free.


----------



## hazmat17 (Sep 27, 2007)

Interesting points to ponder. Especially the point about smaller production boats vs. larger custom or semi custom high end yachts - which bodes well for me considering I'm considering something in the 28-32 foot range...

An economist would probably argue that the used boat market is not an "efficient" market given 

1) With a few notable exceptions (Catalinas, J/24 etc.) there often aren't a lot of a given model available on the market - for instance smaller Freedom Yachts by Gary Mull currently (1) 28', & (2) 30'

2) Being a luxury, boat purchases are an emotional transaction, not a rational one

So here's hoping that the guy selling me my boat is a step away from insolvency...


----------



## turfguy (Oct 24, 2007)

Looking at auto sales today and hearing on CNBC that people with 650 FICA scores cant get an auto loan you have to believe not too many will get a boat loan without at least 20-30% down. That will certainly put a damper on the sales as most people buying boats over 30' will be financing.
turf


----------



## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

Well, I'm going to test it imperically. I just bid $39,000 on a sailboat listed at $55,000.

Cross your fingers.


----------



## sander06 (Sep 18, 2003)

I didn't feel like going through this entire list of comments, but I wonder if there is such a thing as a "buyer's market" when even the buyer doesn't have any money!!


----------



## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

sander06 - the current bank problems have hit the U.S. and haven't impacted the rest of the world as hard, there are plenty of buyers out there with money, and with the US$ exchange rates being low, their money goes a lot further these days as well.
The European boating forums are all abuzz with people looking at the US used boat market. Australia is still booming and boat prices there are ridiculous. The erstwhile eastern Bloc countries are oozing cash - but they are still in the conspicious consumption phase and go for big powerboats, preferably new.


----------



## drynoc (Jul 17, 2001)

*Yes. Buyer's market*

I'm having a difficult time selling my Santana 35, which is in good shape, and I'm only asking $19900. On the other hand, I found a 1999 Formula 330 SS listed for $49900 in excellent condition, paid $37500 for it, and that included bottom paint, new exhaust risers, fix of all survey items, and free shipment to a marina near my home. The boat had been listed by the dealership it was traded in to for over a year, and of course they claim to be losing money on it.


----------



## richard_reinhart (Aug 3, 2002)

*There are certainly a lot of boats languishing for sale at my marina.*

And bunches more empty slips than there were last year.

The fact that my marina hasn't raised annual slip rentals for the last two years (after really pounding us with increases in 2004 and 2005) suggests the overall boating market is soft.

As for fuel costs, last month I had my sailboat in St. Augustine and docked next to a 45 sportsfishing boat. The owner told me it costs him $1,500/trip to make a Gulf Stream run for fishing for one day. Even though he looked prosperous, he said he was cutting back significantly on the number of trips he made and expecting his guests to chip in for fuel costs whenever he took them out.

I told him my little Yanmar burned a 2-3 quarts/hour, but didn't get any sympathy.


----------



## anthony11 (Aug 19, 2008)

turfguy said:


> Looking at auto sales today and hearing on CNBC that people with 650 FICA scores cant get an auto loan you have to believe not too many will get a boat loan without at least 20-30% down. That will certainly put a damper on the sales as most people buying boats over 30' will be financing.
> turf


I recently thought about buying a boat I thought I could maybe get for $10-11k. WAMU doesn't do boat loans. Was referred by the broker to a small local bank. They'd need 20% down and would give an 8.49% rate. I'd have just put it on a credit card but the broker can't/won't do it that way.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I hope this guy has a SIX-PACK or other USCG ticket... since expecting payment in fuel may be considered hiring the boat for charter.


richard_reinhart said:


> And bunches more empty slips than there were last year.
> 
> The fact that my marina hasn't raised annual slip rentals for the last two years (after really pounding us with increases in 2004 and 2005) suggests the overall boating market is soft.
> 
> ...


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

anthony11 said:


> I'd have just put it on a credit card but the broker can't/won't do it that way.


Broker won't do it that way because he dosn't want to pay the merchant points. Just do a cash advance on your MC and buy your boat that way.

I've done it myself.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Soundings today reported that many boats are in foreclosure (power and sail) and banks are offering them at 15% below BUC/Nada value thereby depressing all values. This may be more of an issue with power boats but it is the first hard evidence that there is some decline in selling prices that I have seen.


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

this may or may not apply...
You might want to call the "American Bank of Texas".
They're VERY boat loan friendly as I remember. 
Lacy Harbor, a "good ol' boy" is central to the operations, (as well as oil/gas equipment, airplane stuff & lord knows what else) and he owns a great big-o pile of docks at at least 8 marinas in Texas and Oklahoma.


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

Cam, 
went to an auction last Sat. AM. 3 midsize generic powerboats between 30 and 35 ft, no condition, none went over 15k. One "Prairie" 32 ft sailboat, no sails, rough shape, 8500.00 (over 8k in slip fees due)


----------



## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

hazmat17 said:


> It is "common knowledge" that it is now a buyer's market for new and used boats. It is often repeated here, as well as the popular press.
> 
> Does anybody have any data to back it up - plots of final sale prices, days on the market etc. Trying to get my hands around how much I might want to offer if I come across the right boat. Like anyone I don't want to pay too much now, especially if selling prices are in a free fall - better to wait (unless it is the perfect boat).
> 
> ...


Those price guide books are and can not be good guides because there is not a large enough or transparent enough market.

Guide books don't write checks... buyers do.


----------



## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

Guess I should have looked at the date of the posting... regardless my point stands.


----------



## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Good time to update:

All indicators suggest that well kept used boats are selling exceedingly well these days. Poorly kept boats still languish.


----------



## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

WDS123 said:


> Good time to update:
> 
> All indicators suggest that well kept used boats are selling exceedingly well these days. Poorly kept boats still languish.


I concur that well kept will sell, but not sure if $$$ are there. It may simply be that because there is such a large inventory out there, buyers will naturally gravitate to the well kept one. It doesn't make them more valuable, it makes them more saleable, if that makes any sense.


----------



## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Prices appear to be firming

The last 2 brokerage boats in the Harbor Daysailer line sold for fat numbers.


----------



## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Still looks like a buyers market here in Florida. Even the well-kept boats that are selling seem to be going for quite a bit less than they would have 5 or 6 years ago.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Don, five or six years ago would be 2006-2007, when things were still booming and before the 2008 crash.

No surprise that the price of anything big would have dropped as folks have gone broke.

Except of course, groceries. Which often seem to have DOUBLED since the crash.


----------



## telecam (Mar 21, 2012)

Beneteau raised their prices 7% August 1. Their expenses have either skyrocketed or they see a shift in the market and want to increase their profit margins.


----------



## turfguy (Oct 24, 2007)

I think the important question is if financing is available for the average buyer, then prices will stay stronger, but if you cannot get financing then eventually prices will drop more. Same as the housing market, great home prices, but tough to get a mortgage for the average buyer. I had my home sold a couple times, buyer could not qualify for the loan 

If I could sell the house, I would pay up for the boat I want. Oh well!


----------



## ctl411 (Feb 15, 2009)

Financing doesn't seem a problem to me. I checked with my credit union 15 or more years 5.99% on 60 grand for a old sailboat late 70s early 80s. The one didn't book out high enough no problem just get the survey to the price I want to pay. They would finance the full amount no money down if I choose. On the power boater conversion , I had one out this weekend looking at my 37 c to buy. He is running through about $500 a month in gas on a 23 footer. Even with a few converting to sail the sail market will be weak for years to come. To much inventory/ cost to keep and less disposable income.


----------



## Capt-T (Aug 14, 2011)

I'm still waiting to find out if Stillraining has sold his 30' SeaRay!!


----------



## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

The only hard stats I have is on the Harbor 20s and Harbor 25s. Harbor 20s in good shape are snapped up quickly at very little depreciation. I've seen 10 year old well maintained Harbor 20s sell for 80% of new. The Harbor 25s also get snapped up quickly - used they typically sell for 80% of new MSRP.


----------



## jfried (Aug 1, 2012)

hazmat17 said:


> It is "common knowledge" that it is now a buyer's market for new and used boats. It is often repeated here, as well as the popular press.
> 
> Does anybody have any data to back it up - plots of final sale prices, days on the market etc. Trying to get my hands around how much I might want to offer if I come across the right boat. Like anyone I don't want to pay too much now, especially if selling prices are in a free fall - better to wait (unless it is the perfect boat).
> 
> ...


Maybe it's the business education talking, but I don't think there's any such thing as a buyer's market or seller's market when talking across the board -- just a market.

Of course, you could make the case (quite convincingly) that we are in more of a buyer's market than we were 5 years ago... but that's stating the obvious. 2 years ago? I'd say we're in more of a sellers market than we were 2 years ago. Of course, when making a purchasing decision, because you're buying/selling the boat today versus buying /selling the boat in the future.

So the real question is -- where do you see the market for sailboats going? Have we put the global economic downtown behind us with good days (and disposable income) ahead? Is sailing going to increase or decrease in popularity / desirability over the near future? What impact will the retiring baby boomers have? Are they going to spend their hard earned money on boats, or going to sell the ones they have because they no longer have an income to support keeping the boat?

Furthermore, you could ask the question of whether your particular market (boat type / size / location / age / price point) is more or less buyer friendly 
than the global market for sailboats.

My 2 cents? I wouldn't buy a new boat unless I was paying close to used boat prices. In my opinion there hasn't been a ton of innovation in regards to quality of new boats versus those built 3-5 years ago. I think that like other transportation devices, there is a strong tendency to not want "somebody else's worn down ___" and as such the used boat market is not strong enough to bring prices up to the point where the price difference between new versus used equals the benefits of new vs used. That being said, that could simply be my personal preferences, along with not valuing the benefits of a brand new boat to a great enough extent.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

jfried said:


> My 2 cents? I wouldn't buy a new boat unless I was paying close to used boat prices. In my opinion there hasn't been a ton of innovation in regards to quality of new boats versus those built 3-5 years ago. I think that like other transportation devices, there is a strong tendency to not want "somebody else's worn down ___" and as such the used boat market is not strong enough to bring prices up to the point where the price difference between new versus used equals the benefits of new vs used. That being said, that could simply be my personal preferences, along with not valuing the benefits of a brand new boat to a great enough extent.


I never buy big ticket items - Cars, boats, houses etc - new, there's too big a hit on depreciation. Finding a lightly used whatever saves such a big piece of change for very little compromise.

I once read a quote that one only HAD to have two things new - food & underwear.  That goes well beyond my personal choice but there is an element of truth to it.


----------



## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> I never buy big ticket items - Cars, boats, houses etc - new, there's too big a hit on depreciation. Finding a lightly used whatever saves such a big piece of change for very little compromise.
> 
> I once read a quote that one only HAD to have two things new - food & underwear.  That goes well beyond my personal choice but there is an element of truth to it.


Fully agree. I have not bought a new vehicle since 1973 for exactly the reasons you state. Most of my furniture is used (much of it antique) but I draw the line on bedding, for a number of reasons, not the least being the invasion of bed bugs in North America.


----------



## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Delirious said:


> I just received a notification on a Sabre 30 yesterday from my broker at 8:15AM. It sold to someone else less than one hour after being listed for the full asking price; which I learned when I said "I want to see it!" Sounds "seller's market" to me on that one. ;-)
> 
> With homes it's location, location, location. With used boats it's condition, condition, condition.
> 
> ...


Remember, a buyer can offer anything. Final sale price after survey is another story. It can be a strategy for a creative buyer. Offer anything, get the boat off the market, surveys, banks, insurance companies, mechanics, riggers, sailmakers, then come back with a laundry list of fixes and then low ball. Long distance buyers may have to do the same. Offer full price pending a survey and inspection, travel to the boat, meet the surveyor and get down to business.

The boat could also be in extraordinary condition. That in itself is a rare find on the used boat market. Boats are often sold due to lack of interest or time to enjoy the product.

And of course there is no shortage of sellers who will only sell at their price, as apposed to the market price. That does not change in any market, but when the bottom slips it leaves more boats on the market for years.

The housing market is no different except that people have mortgages to pay off and most would like to make a buck so the houses sit unsold.


----------



## SeaQuinn (Jul 31, 2012)

So if we are still in a buyers market.....how do you price a boat you have for sale? 

I spoke to some brokers lately who have told me that many boats end up selling for about ten percent less than the asking price. But how do you decide what your asking price should be?


----------



## hasher (Aug 12, 2011)

I am looking to buy my first sail boat. 

It is sad for the sellers, but for buyers it is a great market.

I'm in Florida presently and see a lot of great boats on the market.

The value you get for your buck is not determined primarily by the price. It is determined by how much you use it. I bought a new Harley a couple years back and unlike most, I have put a lot of miles on it. I plan to do the same with the boat.

I enjoy reading the posts here.


----------



## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

SeaQuinn said:


> So if we are still in a buyers market.....how do you price a boat you have for sale?
> 
> I spoke to some brokers lately who have told me that many boats end up selling for about ten percent less than the asking price. But how do you decide what your asking price should be?


most broker listed boats will be priced by recent comparable sales via soldboats.com....

OTOH, private sellers typically want to get their loan paid off, and a return on repairs, equipment and up grades..just not going to happen

A good broker will assess and assist in pricing the boat to sell in 30 days, 90 days, or never. Some really good ones will be honest with you about the condition and quality of your boat and some may even not take the listing if the price to condition ratio is way out of line.

Most buyers will offer less than asking and that can be from 75-10% off...As a seller, I always want the offer presented with any conditions. ie The last boat I sold was bought as is where is, within 10% of asking price, no survey, no sea trial, no inspection, nothing I had to do.

The boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, regardless of make, length, loans held, etc.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

cupper3 said:


> Fully agree. I have not bought a new vehicle since 1973 for exactly the reasons you state. Most of my furniture is used (much of it antique) but I draw the line on bedding, for a number of reasons, not the least being the invasion of bed bugs in North America.


I'd class bedding in with underwear - if my naked bod is going to be wrapped in it, I want it new.


----------



## Paddyd (Jun 14, 2012)

I searched several versions of "used boat market 2012" on the web ...new boat sales are down , used boat sales are flat , material for new boat costs have risen 7% and that is due to enviromental type stuff .......

Your college marketing tells you several basic points ...... 
If your boat doesnt sell in 35 to 45 days you are priced too high...it is a depreciating asset...... if you dont get an offer in 20 days your price is too high ......
for a depreciating asset..... if you cant sell it in 45 days you have a problem.
I have owned and sold 18 boats in 25 years each with a purchase and sale price from $20,000 to $50,000 .....the longest it took me to sell was 31 days .....Good product at good price always sells and sells fast .....
if you are buying a boat make an offer that you feel good with .....maybe you are a 10% guy maybe a 20% guy maybe a 25% guy ....always asking for 10 or 20 or 25% off the asking price that is ok.....Make the offer ......present the offer and explain why you arrived at this price to the owner in an open and clear forum , dont be shy .....a lot of brokers dont fully explain or expand on how you arrived at the offer price, the worst the owner can do is say NO , talk to the owner directly during the process ....he should counter offer ......if he doesnt counter in 24 hours move on immediately to your second option......buying the right boat can take months , be calm , when you step on the boat you will know it ....and when the price is right you will know it ......


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> I'd class bedding in with underwear - if my naked bod is going to be wrapped in it, I want it new.


I don't know, if you stay in a hotel, you are likely sleeping on sheets that have been slept on by as many as hundreds of people. though one hopes they have been washed. Though the comforter and blankets have likely not been.

Just a happy thought. Glad I don't have to travel much for work currently.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

miatapaul said:


> I don't know, if you stay in a hotel, you are likely sleeping on sheets that have been slept on by as many as hundreds of people. though one hopes they have been washed. Though the comforter and blankets have likely not been.
> 
> Just a happy thought. Glad I don't have to travel much for work currently.


Yeah, you have to live with that in a public facility BUT, I ain't about to buy their used sheets.


----------



## tomfl (May 29, 2011)

Paddyd said:


> I searched several versions of "used boat market 2012" on the web ...new boat sales are down , used boat sales are flat , material for new boat costs have risen 7% and that is due to enviromental type stuff .......
> 
> Your college marketing tells you several basic points ......
> If your boat doesnt sell in 35 to 45 days you are priced too high...it is a depreciating asset...... if you dont get an offer in 20 days your price is too high ......
> ...


A lot of good stuff here.

What I would point out is that I have been looking to buy a boat for around six months. Something along the lines of a pocket/coastal multihull cruiser.

Boats I have considered include a C31, Telstar, Dragonfly, Gemini, PDQ, Seawind 1000, and others in this general class. I would bet I could find at least 50 boats I have looked at that have been advertised for six months or longer. Only one of the boats has had a drop in price and it was way above similar boats to start with and even with the price drop is still in the high range for similar boats.

Only two of the boats I have seriously looked at have sold and both were priced way below other similar boats. I have taken four trips to South Florida and am always shocked at how many boats there are in that area, how many boats are for sale there, and how little use most of the boats there seem to get.

I have extensive experience in the real estate market and a solid theoretical background in economics. While it is easy to read how markets should work, and how to a great extent marks do work the fact of the matter is that the boat market defies description.

In a normal market I would have already bought a boat but there is so much friction in the boat market I have no idea just how long it will take me to find the right boat at the right price.


----------



## TomandKarens34 (Dec 4, 2007)

With boats, its condition, condition, condition. In Maine, for the difference in price going into the tens of thousands, its worth going to Florida to buy in the 40 foot and over range. For my favorite dream boat, the difference is $25K. I could float around the Bahamas for two years on that kind of cash.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

TomandKarens34 said:


> With boats, its condition, condition, condition. In Maine, for the difference in price going into the tens of thousands, its worth going to Florida to buy in the 40 foot and over range. For my favorite dream boat, the difference is $25K. I could float around the Bahamas for two years on that kind of cash.


A few friends (including a broker who has gone south to buy boats) have told me that Florida boats age much faster than boats from up north. They get a lot more UV exposure than Maine boats, and any moisture intrusion is more likely to lead to rot because of the higher heat history. They suggested that for this reason, the lower price of Florida boats is a false economy. Maybe it makes sense if you're going to keep the boat in the Bahamas or other southern location, but they said it's not worth it to buy a boat in Florida and bring it up north. They said the higher resale price of northern boats is based on less aging.

Based on your experience, what do you think about this advice?


----------



## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Brokers from Maine argue that it is not worth it for buyers to go to Florida to buy a boat. Gee, what a surprise. Don't you think there might be a little bit of self-serving rationalization there?

There are more boats for sale in Florida. I just did a quick check on yachtworld.com for monohull sailboats between 35 and 45 feet. Florida has 510 for sale. Maine has 98 for sale. Economics 101, simple supply-and-demand, will tell you that there is going to be more price competition in Florida, and hence the prices are going to be lower.

I suppose it is possible that boats age more quickly in Florida (though I'm not sure I really buy that). Nonetheless, more competition still means lower prices, even for boats of identical condition. The higher resale price of northern boat is based on simple economics--less competition.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

denverd0n said:


> Brokers from Maine argue that it is not worth it for buyers to go to Florida to buy a boat. Gee, what a surprise. Don't you think there might be a little bit of self-serving rationalization there?


No, you need to read more carefully.

None of these people were from Maine, and nothing in my message suggested that. They are from Pennsylvania, Delaware, Virginia, and Maryland (transplanted to Washington state). The broker friend travels the entire world to help clients buy bluewater vessels (and do deliveries), and has also delivered many boats from Florida. He is totally willing to go to Florida to make purchases, he just advises people that they may be buying some hidden problems in doing so. Not many brokers are willing to give that advice, since the self-serving ones don't want to say anything to discourage a sale after the person's "fallen in love" with a boat.



denverd0n said:


> There are more boats for sale in Florida. I just did a quick check on yachtworld.com for monohull sailboats between 35 and 45 feet. Florida has 510 for sale. Maine has 98 for sale. Economics 101, simple supply-and-demand, will tell you that there is going to be more price competition in Florida, and hence the prices are going to be lower.


Supply is lower in Maine. You fail to point out that demand there is lower also. A larger market does not always mean a buyers market.

I was simply pointing out that the difference in price may be due to a difference in condition because northern boats have less weather stress. You haven't said anything to refute that.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Southern boats DO age faster, no question. My boat spent most of its life in SoCal and the "sunburn" effects were very noticeable compared to boats that spent their lives here. Standing rigging has a shorter life in the tropics and sub-tropics, boat have the rep of blistering more in warm water etc. etc.

Having said that, all used boat purchases are, or should be on a case by case basis so those effects can be factored in. The easier life of northern boats just means there are likely to be fewer "throwouts" in your search.


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

But then again freeze thaw cycles in the north can cause hard to see damaged areas if there are any hidden leaks which on older boats is very common.

Not that I disagree with the general premise that southern boats get more sun and maybe more use.


----------



## TomandKarens34 (Dec 4, 2007)

It's hard to argue a $25,000 price difference as extra wear. My reference is the Irwin 43, $100,000 up north, $75,000 down south. Roughly. You can do a lot of deferred maintenance for $25,000. The cheapest Irwin is in Maine, and displays the kind of damage that is common amongst all older boats, north or south. Quality still has a price.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Two identical boats on the used market rarely are. A $25k or 25% difference could mean that someone isn't mentioning water damage in the deck, or a new engine/tranny needed, or a couple of new sails. All little things that *could* easily account for half to all of that difference in that kind of boat.

Different markets and delusional versus motivated sellers obviously make a real difference, but when it comes to used anythings, condition and location count.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

TomandKarens34 said:


> It's hard to argue a $25,000 price difference as extra wear. My reference is the Irwin 43, $100,000 up north, $75,000 down south. Roughly. You can do a lot of deferred maintenance for $25,000.


Sounds like you've never owned a 43'  $25K can get eaten up pretty fast on a boat that size, even if you do lots of the work yourself. Just a new engine would eat most of it. A full suit of sails would easily take half of it.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

A full suit of sails on a 40+'er for only $12.5k? Jon, you must know someone in the garment business.<G>

Main & genoa, fast five to seven grand?

Now, let's talk about "full suit". Heavy air main, light air main, stormsail. Kaching!
100 job, 150 genoa light, 130 heavy? asymetric, two chutes, Kaching! OK, scratch the chutes for a cruiser, still need the storm jib.

I'm almost afraid to ask what a "full suit" from a top name could add up to. I try to avoid math with that many digits in it. But I suppose if you took the shopping list into a local loft, they'd at least order you a pizza and beer while checking the measurements.<G>


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

hellosailor said:


> A full suit of sails on a 40+'er for only $12.5k? Jon, you must know someone in the garment business.<G>
> 
> Main & genoa, fast five to seven grand?
> 
> ...


I was thinking of contemporary boats, not those old RORC cutters with their separate sails for every 5 knots of wind speed and 10 degrees of wind angle. 

And I DID say "*easily* eat 1/2". 

Bottom line - $25K ain't a lot to spend fixing up a 43' boat.


----------



## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

All I can say is check them carefully! It's all in how the owner took care of it.

Had a broker fast track me to buy a boat in Miami. Pushed it was a great boat with lots of extras.

In fact, it was a storm damaged, water intruded piece of garbage that was severely under cared for. At least the owner was decent enough to tell me bout the storm damage that both brokers (they worked for the same brokerage) failed to tell me. Thank goodness I drove down and checked it out before paying a surveyor. I smelled a rat.


----------



## TomandKarens34 (Dec 4, 2007)

Well, you are all correct. $25,000 CAN be spent in a heart beat on a 43 foot boat. We are quickly get into the "how long is a piece of string" type of discussion. Condition and location count for a lot. All things being equal, means nothing is ever equal. More to the point, to return to the original idea, I think it is a buyer's market. I'm not sure how to address this without some discussion of the economy and by extension, politics. To touch that forbidden zone, ever so slightly, I submit that in a confiscatory monetary environment, preserving wealth is a great concern among those with vast quantities of cash tied up in " floating assets ". If you are taking a beating in the markets and business has tanked, then a strategic retreat from luxuries like boats may be the direction some take. I expect sellers are way outnumbering buyers at this point and that the trend will continue. I, like most of us, track my favorite boats and have watched most of them sit unsold all summer. Some have sold, but they tend to be the ones under $50k. There are some really cheap boats out there but soft decks, engines with tall hours, non functional electronics, tired sails and rot from leaking port lights are a common among them.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

TomandKarens34 said:


> I expect sellers are way outnumbering buyers at this point and that the trend will continue.


I've been watching the sailboat market on an almost daily basis for more than 10 years - YW, Craigs, Kijiji and for a while when I had bootleg access, SoldBoats. It has been interesting to say the least. Soldboats was a real eye opener - brokerage boats appeared to sell for WAY less than the listing price - small fractions very frequently. Typically they sold for way less than I would have even considered as an opening offer.

The market seemed to stop suddenly in the States after the '08 crash and unbelievably good deals were everywhere - 45' race boats asking $20K, 30' boats being given away etc.

That didn't happen so suddenly in Canada - our prices softened but not a huge amount.

Now prices in the States seem to have firmed up some - still cheap by historical standards though. Here the market has really tanked. A lot of it locally is due to the moorage problem - lots of boats for sale on the hard without a berth just sit. Very good prices available all over and lots of people looking but not many chequebooks seem to be getting used. Older boats seem to be running about 1/2 of what they were 5 years ago.

It's definitely still a major buyers market in both countries, at least judging by the advertised prices.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

HeartsContent said:


> All I can say is check them carefully! It's all in how the owner took care of it.
> 
> Had a broker fast track me to buy a boat in Miami. Pushed it was a great boat with lots of extras.
> 
> In fact, it was a storm damaged, water intruded piece of garbage that was severely under cared for. At least the owner was decent enough to tell me bout the storm damage that both brokers (they worked for the same brokerage) failed to tell me. Thank goodness I drove down and checked it out before paying a surveyor. I smelled a rat.


Of course that has nothing to do with being in a buyers market, but more to do with unethical brokers. Of curse they likely never saw the boat at all so was only going by the listing. But yes you should check any boat carefully no matter the market.

While I have dealt with some good brokers in my search, I have seen the real incentive is there to not be so ethical.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

miatapaul said:


> Of course that has nothing to do with being in a buyers market, but more to do with unethical brokers. Of curse they likely never saw the boat at all so was only going by the listing. But yes you should check any boat carefully no matter the market.
> 
> While I have dealt with some good brokers in my search, I have seen the real incentive is there to not be so ethical.


When I was shopping I looked at over 50 broker boats, and a lot of them were dirty, smelly dogs. There was only one broker who warned me that I might not be so pleased with the boat, but he had two other boats I wanted to see so I looked at it anyway (he was right). Every other one described the boats as in "great condition." One of them I drove 7 hours to see in Norfolk, and I was really pissed at the guy. I could never imagine going to Florida or somewhere even further unless I had somebody that I really trusted to know my preferences and give me a very thorough pre-screening. Airfare for multiple trips adds up quickly.


----------



## TomandKarens34 (Dec 4, 2007)

Hi John B, I think you're right, the market has firmed up, but just slightly. The economic environment has stabilized for the moment. Inflation is steady at three times the rate officially claimed. No sudden surprises in the market for the moment. All quiet, tends to calm fear, the biggest thing driving "just dump it " sales. I expect this to change after the elections. There are cuts to the assorted give away programs and tax hikes rolling down the pike. Pell grants may be ending and quite a few boats should hit the market to pay for the kid's college, for one example. The broad economic indicators seem to point to stagnation rather than robust growth. I believe further " digging in " will be the reaction of folks who are on the fence between money to burn and the folks who must cut back. This fall and next spring should have a modest rise in boat prices. It will be tempered by the fact there will be no growth in take home pay to compensate for the 8 3/4 % inflation during that same time frame. So while there may be some initial growth in boat prices, I don't think that it will be sustainable into the fall, a year from now. A year from now I expect the deals, for those who make the leap, should be off about 8% to 10% of what they are now. Which, adjusted for inflation, means the prices will be exactly the same, but the dollar will be worth about 10% less. I hope that made sense.


----------



## Jennifer26 (Sep 23, 2012)

Hi there! Market buyers or buyers market are almost the same. Buyers on market could make help improve the market credibility.


----------



## dgasmd (Mar 31, 2011)

So this is a buyer's market for what particular type of boats? The smaller ones (<30 feet)? The older ones (>15 years old)? The poorly cared or maintenanced ones? The ugly, cheap, and I unattractive ones? The modern looking production boats like Hunter, Catalina, Beneteau, etc? The cheaper ones (<$100K)? The new boats? Just which ones? Reason I pose those questions is that I have been looking around for months and based on add alone in several websites I have created my personal opinions. Now, since I am open to see the sold price of any of those boats, it is an incomplete or unreal conclusion. However, I see a few trends:
-nice, clean, newer boats that are practically turn key sell quickly.
-newer boats that have been neglected call much lower prices and sit for a while
-new boats seem to sit forever
-1-2 year old boats seem to be advertised at 60-70% or less sometimes than new prices despite and added features
-


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

dgasmd said:


> -nice, clean, newer boats that are practically turn key sell quickly.-


At what price though? Pretty low in most cases, especially when compared to the money the seller has spent on them.



> 1-2 year old boats seem to be advertised at 60-70% or less sometimes than new prices despite and added features-


A new 34' that cost $150K or more selling two years later for $90 or $100K sounds like a buyers market to me.


----------



## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

Norwalk Boat Show yesterday. Wedged between new Bene's and Hunters was this lovely 1.5 year old 37' Hanse. She sad it was available for $175 asking. She said new was $275 ish.
Huge drop. No?
To tell the truth the only boat that caught my eye was a '84 Nelson Marek Morgan 36-6 with fixed keel and brand new Westerbeke. It was not part of the show.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

jppp said:


> *She sad* it was available for $175 asking. She said new was $275 ish.


Is there such a thing as a Freudian typo?


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

jppp said:


> Norwalk Boat Show yesterday. Wedged between new Bene's and Hunters was this lovely 1.5 year old 37' Hanse. She sad it was available for $175 asking. She said new was $275 ish.
> Huge drop. No?


Maybe. Often salespeople will try to make the asking price sound like a bargain by inflating the "new" price. Macy's is notorious for this, and the same hold true for other markets like boats.

I don't know the boat, so this is just a general comment. But just as a general sanity check, how many 37' boats out there were selling for $275k, even at the peak of the bubble?


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

TakeFive said:


> Maybe. Often salespeople will try to make the asking price sound like a bargain by inflating the "new" price. Macy's is notorious for this, and the same hold true for other markets like boats.
> 
> I don't know the boat, so this is just a general comment. But just as a general sanity check, how many 37' boats out there were selling for $275k, even at the peak of the bubble?


In pure numbers, not many but most of the quality, low volume or semi-custom ones seemed to cost those sort of $.


----------



## TomandKarens34 (Dec 4, 2007)

After reading my posts, I have to confront the fact that I am working from a bottom feeder's point of view. The prices of new, or even newish boats are SO far over my price target, that my perspective has been skewed. I would like to frame my posts as pricing on boats over 10 years old and 38 to 43 feet long. There are lots of folks who are in a far different market position than myself and for them, my posts are not very germane to the discussion. Also I am in New England, and what I say is more relevant to the North East market. There are different market drivers in the North West, Canada, and other locations.
That said, the tide lifts and drops all the boats, so with a grain of salt, my comments might still be useful.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

TomandKarens34 said:


> After reading my posts, I have to confront the fact that I am working from a bottom feeder's point of view. The prices of new, or even newish boats are SO far over my price target, that my perspective has been skewed. I would like to frame my posts as pricing on boats over 10 years old and 38 to 43 feet long.


I'm not sure I understand - you were looking at an Irwin for $75-100k, which is hardly "bottom feeder" material. What is your price range for a 38-43 foot boat? And if you are on a tight budget, traveling to Florida to seek out bargains could be a costly mistake if those boats are not up to an ocean passage. Would you trust a "bottom feeder" boat with your life? (Or were you planning to ship it, which could cost more than a "bottom feeder boat.")



TomandKarens34 said:


> ...That said, the tide lifts and drops all the boats, so with a grain of salt, my comments might still be useful.


What you say is literally true as it relates to tidal waters. However, if you are attempting a metaphor for market conditions, I would beg to differ. A lot of the "bottom feeder" boats can now be had for free - a 100% drop in price. But well cared for boats have dropped, but by much less. There is no single percentage number that can describe the price change of vastly different boats in this economy.

If you are truly a "bottom feeder," you need to be very careful to budget adequate money for repairs and maintenance. Purchase price is just the admission fee to play the game. Often (usually) the bigger, cheaper boat will cost much more in repairs and maintenance. Once again, maintenance costs cannot be calculated as a percentage of purchase price, because a more expensive boat that's in better condition will likely cost less to repair and maintain than a similar cheaper boat, at least for the first 5 years of ownership.


----------



## SeaQuinn (Jul 31, 2012)

Ultimately it still boils down to "you get what you pay for". The well cared for and maintained boats still cost more than the same model boat that has been neglected and needs big upgrades. Often paying more for the well maintained boat with newer electronics and features you need for cruising ends up costing less in the long run than buying the cheaper neglected boat that will need repairs and upgrades. 

I think the economy is causing more boats to fall into the disrepair category because people don't have the money to do all the things that really need to be done regularly to keep the boat in great shape. That is probably why prices have dropped on these boats and they appear to be "bargains".


----------



## TomandKarens34 (Dec 4, 2007)

You are both right. My current boat cost me $8K. I have $10K in repairs since I bought it.
Still not it the water, but next year it will be. I would not do it again. I might not get a larger boat. It depends on the market and the boat. $50K is my target price. I'm dreaming if I think I'll find what I'm looking for in that range. Never the less, I keep my eyes open.


----------



## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

"Getting what you pay for" is not always the rule. We paid a fair price for our Endeavour 32 because it was in great shape, and even after living aboard for 2 years have only needed to spend 10% on upgrades & maintenance. Working at a boat yard in Annapolis I saw boats that seemed in the same shape selling for twice the price or if they were around the price we paid needed lots of work. The last boat I worked on was an older Morgan 38 that sold for $25k and before the boat was sea worthy the owner spent atleast another $15k + . An Endeavour 33 that was for sale there was listed for twice what we paid and still didn't seem to be in as good shape. I think you might find much better deals from private sellers then a broker if your looking for a buyers market.


----------



## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I paid asking for my Irwin - I could have talked him down - but I wanted that boat, then.

I guess that makes it a buyers market.

On the other hand I looked at a Morgan 43 that has been for sale for 6 years - it was a disaster of wet and mildew on the inside - yet was listed for a price that didn't include that. If it's a buyers market obviously the owner of the boat is unaware of it. 
During my short search I saw many boats where the broker point blank told me what he thought the owner would settle for - in a lot of cases that was between 60 - 80% of asking. In some cases it was 100% or don't bother, irregardless of how long the boat had been listed.


----------

