# Another boat lost in Atlantic



## capta

*Once again, another sailboat and crew doing a crossing aren't up to the task. This time it only took "winds reaching about 40 miles per hour" (mph, not knots, even!) to end this voyage in near disaster. Sooner or later we are all going to feel the backlash from this sort of irresponsible voyaging, with stringent and expensive regulations for offshore voyaging.*
The Rorkes' 15 metre yacht, Blue Pearl, sank on Thursday after being badly battered from two days of storms.
Yacht owner Mr Rorke, from Peterborough, said: 'We were preparing to die.'
He said there was poor visibility, 25ft waves and winds reaching about 40 miles per hour - and the life raft had to be patched up and that they were holding on 'for dear life'.
U.S. coast guards rescued Leonard Rorke, 55, Lisa Rorke, 50, from Peterborough along with their Jack Russell Terrier, Dexter.
In the recording of the rescue's debriefing, he said: 'We were bailing water. It was life and death. We're very grateful. We are very, very lucky."
Coast Guard officials were notified on Thursday by the International Rescue Centre after a message came in saying people were in a life raft and needed help.
Coast Guards from Portsmouth, Virginia, issued a call for help about 6:30 pm to any commercial ships in the vicinity of the life raft. Three ships answered the call and diverted their course to aid in the search.
The boat's crew had an electronic position-indicating radio beacon in the life raft that allowed the Coast Guard to direct ships toward their location.
Mr Rorke said the sailboat sank after the bulkhead broke up and the vessel began taking on water.
The ordeal ended about 12.30am after the Tilda Kosan diverted course from its planned trip to Mexico. The ship found the life raft after making three passes in dark, stormy conditions.
It was about 36 miles (58 kilometers) away from the life raft when it first joined the search.
Mr Rorke had praised the 'fantastic' coast guards. He added: 'They were fantastic, absolutely fantastic. They didn't play around. They were super quick.'
Link to full story;
British couple and dog plucked from life raft in Atlantic Ocean | Mail Online


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## christian.hess

bulkhead breaking cause the water leak? yikes

just a question who wrote the part in bold?


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## Donna_F

capta said:


> ... Sooner or later we are all going to feel the backlash from this sort of irresponsible voyaging, with stringent and expensive regulations for offshore voyaging...


I don't think this is anything new. People have been getting into trouble at sea since the first boat. It's just that now the media, social networks, etc. can spread the news farther and faster.


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## rockDAWG

capta said:


> *Once again, another sailboat and crew doing a crossing aren't up to the task. This time it only took "winds reaching about 40 miles per hour" (mph, not knots, even!) to end this voyage in near disaster. Sooner or later we are all going to feel the backlash from this sort of irresponsible voyaging, with stringent and expensive regulations for offshore voyaging.*


What then the magic number of wind speed one allows to call the CG? Unless you know more details than what it is stated in the link, there is no indication they were not prudent sailors. If the captain of Bounty and delivery captain of be good too could call USCG, I have no problems for these three to be saved.

Why so angry with them? Have they done something wrong to you? It makes no sense.


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## christian.hess

thats why I asked who wrote the bold lettering...? feels harsh


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## smurphny

Looks like they were up in the N. Atlantic. That part of the ocean has been a washing machine for most of the winter and has been nasty right through with one big low pressure system after the other for months. Don't these folks look at weather maps or read things like Cornell? It does not take a degree in meteorology or much research to figure this kind of stuff out.


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## vega1860

This sort of thing will continue to happen as long as there are people with romantic notions of sailing into the sunset after retirement with no real idea of what to expect out there. It is made worse by the prevailing fantasy that having a satellite phone is a rational substitute for personal responsibility and good seamanship plus the attitude that there must be someone who is responsible for bailing your dumb a$$ out when you are overwhelmed and get scared. Then there is the ignorant media that hypes the situation out of all proportion while promoting the idiotic idea that "The Authorities" can and should DO SOMETHING to save the fools from themselves no matter the cost to society.

To make matters worse, we will be seeing more and more of this sort of thing as we baby boomers retire in increasing numbers. I fully expect cruising in a private boat will be made so expensive and inconvenient due to government regulation that ordinary people will no longer be able to participate.


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## christian.hess

yeah it doesnt but making comments based on that little info is equally uninformed

while I agree there are many ways of weather forecasting these days and ways to prepare I feel that once out there it matters little...

Id be interested about hearing about the bulkhead failure on a 50 footer...

seems quite catastrophic!


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## vega1860

christian.hess said:


> Id be interested about hearing about the bulkhead failure on a 50 footer...
> 
> seems quite catastrophic!


Yeah. Me too. It seems to me that an internal bulkhead failure would mean the boat is breaking up. Now that would be disconcerting!


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## smurphny

christian.hess said:


> yeah it doesnt but making comments based on that little info is equally uninformed
> 
> while I agree there are many ways of weather forecasting these days and ways to prepare I feel that *once out there* it matters little...
> 
> Id be interested about hearing about the bulkhead failure on a 50 footer...
> 
> seems quite catastrophic!


"...once out there.." is the key phrase. You don't get out there at this time of the year unless you are completely uninformed or crazy. There are so many instances of people simply being in the wrong part of the ocean at the wrong time of the year. This is information that is readily available. They were not inlet hopping, they were in the middle of the far N. Atlantic in April.


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## Donna_F

No matter how well your forecasting is and how long you wait for the "best" weather window, isn't it the case that nature will do what it's gonna do? 

I guess I don't see where the limited facts at this point in the news story should cause such harsh criticism.


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## smurphny

DRFerron said:


> No matter how well your forecasting is and how long you wait for the "best" weather window, isn't it the case that nature will do what it's gonna do?
> 
> I guess I don't see where the limited facts at this point in the news story should cause such harsh criticism.


It's the same criticism as a couple of years ago when the 16 year old solo circumnavigator had to be pulled out of the S. Indian Ocean---wrong time of the year to even consider being there in the first place. Small sailboats simply don't belong in certain places at certain times of the year. The decision to be there in the first place is an error in judgement. It's almost akin to making the decision to sail The Bounty toward a hurricane....what are they thinking?


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## Donna_F

Since I'm planning for our first potential trans-Atlantic crossing, it'd be nice if we could turn these unfortunate events into thought-provoking learning discussions rather than off the cuff criticism and judgments based on media reporting.


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## Donna_F

smurphny said:


> It's the same criticism as a couple of years ago when the 16 year old solo circumnavigator had to be pulled out of the S. Indian Ocean---wrong time of the year to even consider being there in the first place. Small sailboats simply don't belong in certain places at certain times of the year. The decision to be there in the first place is an error in judgement. It's almost akin to making the decision to sail The Bounty toward a hurricane....what are they thinking?


Point taken. I still think we can do this in a more positive way.

One of the things that crossed my mind is shouldn't a 50 foot boat designed for open water be capable of withstanding those conditions? IF they truly had a 50 footer designed to be out there (I don't see where they say the type of boat) and IF there were no structural issues to begin with?


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## smurphny

So what would be an effective way to promote safer decisions as to when to sail and when to wait? I'm afraid as well that these rescues will eventually prompt more regulation.


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## Donna_F

smurphny said:


> So what would be an effective way to promote safer decisions as to when to sail and when to wait? I'm afraid as well that these rescues will eventually prompt more regulation.


I don't have an answer to that first question, not for the masses. I only know what I can do to reduce risk in my own decisions and how I go about doing that won't be for everyone.

A few years ago I read an article that seemed to think AIS on recreational boats would one day become mandatory equipment. Are you talking about regulation at that level or something more...invasive...for lack of a better word?


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## smurphny

I'd worry about some sort of permit system to travel offshore, insurance requirements, pieces of paper of all sorts. There is no end to what governments can come up with. Just looking at the latest NOAA maps of that area and it looks like it has all winter:http://weather.noaa.gov/pub/fax/QDTM10.gif


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## MarkofSeaLife

900 miles NE of Bermuda... 

The only trip they could of been doing is Newport to Falmouth 2790nms or Newport to Azores
Best tine says Jimmy Cornell June thru August. I dont think mid April is in that time period. Just ice alone oon the northern route makes it dangerous, let alone the weather.

Btw with forward bulkheads... Keep the bloody doors closed!

What sort of boat was it?


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## MarkofSeaLife

It appears to be ex-Tylosa a 2006 Beneteau 50 (marketed in USA as 49)

Voilier Occasion beneteau oceanis50 Quillard 50 pieds (15.2 mètres) 2006 | Bateau, location de voilier et sport nautique


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## Slayer

smurphny said:


> So what would be an effective way to promote safer decisions as to when to sail and when to wait? I'm afraid as well that these rescues will eventually prompt more regulation.


Why do you think that? Are their any published statistics showing a significant increase in these type of rescues? Is their any movement in Congress to take up legislation to address this? I am not doubting you, I just don't know.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Slayer said:


> Are their any published statistics showing a significant increase in these type of rescues? Is their any movement in Congress to take up legislation to address this? .


No data and i think its getting safer.

"Your" congress has nothing to do with it: it was a British boat on route from the Caribbean to Azores via Bermuda. Where does the USA get involved?

What i would like to see, on the mico level, is a forum on this forum for vessels lost, missing, in danger etc. so every one of these threads, and nothing else, goes into its own section so we can keep an eye on how many boats are being lost, or get into difficulties.

Anyone support the idea? And is there a Mod to action it?


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## christian.hess

smurphny said:


> "...once out there.." is the key phrase. You don't get out there at this time of the year unless you are completely uninformed or crazy. There are so many instances of people simply being in the wrong part of the ocean at the wrong time of the year. This is information that is readily available. They were not inlet hopping, they were in the middle of the far N. Atlantic in April.


bud dont want to argue here but since when is APRIL the worst time to cross the atlantic...my friends crossed over in spring

also this time is when a lot of boats cross back to europe for the summer in the med

other than the fact that this year has been a hellish, cold year on the us east coast and have had some ugly storms Im not getting where they failed so miserably in planning for the weather

the information is most definitely out there, I agree

id delve deeper into why the boat broke, especially a 50 footer and how it came to be that the bulkheads caused such a leak

this all from a small paragraph we got from a small article

all Im sating is that its a bit harsh to cast such harsg judgment so soon, even then


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## smurphny

Slayer said:


> Why do you think that? Are their any published statistics showing a significant increase in these type of rescues? Is their any movement in Congress to take up legislation to address this? I am not doubting you, I just don't know.


I don't know the stats either but I think if it becomes an issue in the press in this age of instant communication, politicians are likely to pick up on it. We're an easy target for them to meddle with.


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## Slayer

MarkofSeaLife said:


> "Your" congress has nothing to do with it: it was a British boat on route from the Caribbean to Azores via Bermuda. Where does the USA get involved?
> 
> What i would like to see, on the mico level, is a forum on this forum for vessels lost, missing, in danger etc. so every one of these threads, and nothing else, goes into its own section so we can keep an eye on how many boats are being lost, or get into difficulties.
> 
> Anyone support the idea? And is there a Mod to action it?


Mark I assumed that where Smurphny was from the US, the regulations, insurance and fees that he was concerned with were ones that might be generated in the US. And I think his concerns were not based on this incident alone but these type of events generally. But who knows, maybe he is concerned with what fees the Brits might impose in which case "our" Congress wouldn't get involved.

I think the separate forum would be a good idea, especially if it were to be limited to the facts surrounding the incident, and wouldn't be lost in pages of discussion about them.


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## Slayer

smurphny said:


> I don't know the stats either but I think if it becomes an issue in the press in this age of instant communication, politicians are likely to pick up on it. We're an easy target for them to meddle with.


That would really suck and I wouldn't put it past our legislators to do something like that. But I don't know if I would even know about many of these incidents if I weren't reading about them in various sailing sites. So I don't know if it's come up on the general public's radar. Some incidents I heard about on the news, like the baby being rescued and the fisherman that was survived all that time in his dingy. But a lot of the ones posted her I don't. So lets just hope.


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## JonEisberg

MarkofSeaLife said:


> No data and i think its getting safer.


I would agree that offshore sailing/passagemaking is becoming safer all the time...

On the other hand, it certainly seems to me that the number of abandonments/rescues of sailing yachts - at least in the North Atlantic and off the East coast of the US - have definitely increased in the past 2 years...

who knows, just a temporary 'spike', perhaps? Only time will tell, but my hunch is that, sadly, it may be indicative of a _trend_...


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## tdw

MarkofSeaLife said:


> No data and i think its getting safer.
> 
> "Your" congress has nothing to do with it: it was a British boat on route from the Caribbean to Azores via Bermuda. Where does the USA get involved?
> 
> What i would like to see, on the mico level, is a forum on this forum for vessels lost, missing, in danger etc. so every one of these threads, and nothing else, goes into its own section so we can keep an eye on how many boats are being lost, or get into difficulties.
> 
> Anyone support the idea? And is there a Mod to action it?


I confess I think its a good idea Mark and I'll take it up with Admin. We mods only keep an eye on things and make suggestions for improvements. We don't actually design the forum layout.


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## miatapaul

MarkofSeaLife said:


> No data and i think its getting safer.
> 
> "Your" congress has nothing to do with it: it was a British boat on route from the Caribbean to Azores via Bermuda. Where does the USA get involved?


Well it was the US Coast Guard that plucked them out of the water.

Sent from my NookColor using Tapatalk


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## Brent Swain

Build in steel and you wont have such problems.


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## Slayer

miatapaul said:


> Well it was the US Coast Guard that plucked them out of the water.
> 
> Sent from my NookColor using Tapatalk


The base in Virginia directed the rescue, but it looks like a commercial ship did the actual plucking. But your point was made.


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## MarkofSeaLife

miatapaul said:


> Well it was the US Coast Guard that plucked them out of the water.


The country of the plucking can not legislate against the country of origin!

Remember if you do this stuff against some boats its got to be against all boats... Including ships. International law moves damn slowly.

And how do you administer a law where the country is breaching international law because a vessel is in international waters?

Look at New Zealand, they brought in laws that nearly ruined their tourism industry and their boat building industry in the same fell swoop.
Even then it was only their idea of seaworthiness ... They couldnt stop anyone going to sea at a bad time (Nina) and threatened to chuck some other boat out into their storm season.


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## capta

rockDAWG said:


> What then the magic number of wind speed one allows to call the CG? Unless you know more details than what it is stated in the link, there is no indication they were not prudent sailors. If the captain of Bounty and delivery captain of be good too could call USCG, I have no problems for these three to be saved.
> 
> Why so angry with them? Have they done something wrong to you? It makes no sense.


Oh, for crying out loud. 40 mph; that's just not enough wind for any well found boat to break up and sink in. And if it wasn't a well found boat, what the hell was it doing in the middle of an ocean?
I really wonder how many people would go out there, without their "get out of trouble free card"?
It affects me personally when some guy, sitting in his ivory tower at Bermuda radio, berates me for not carrying the safety equipment he feels I should. I was sailing to Bermuda long before any of it was even invented and didn't need it then, any more than I do today. And I surely don't want some snot nosed kid from the government, who knows absolutely nothing about voyaging, reading me a list of equipment I must have aboard before I can take my own boat more than a couple of miles off shore.
There are many countries, such as NZ, with these sorts of laws, and from what I understand, most of it is complete overkill, and for many, prohibitively expensive. Is that how you'd like it to be in the US, Mr.rockDAWG? Not me.


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## hpeer

MarkofSeaLife said:


> What i would like to see, on the mico level, is a forum on this forum for vessels lost, missing, in danger etc. so every one of these threads, and nothing else, goes into its own section so we can keep an eye on how many boats are being lost, or get into difficulties.
> 
> Anyone support the idea? And is there a Mod to action it?


I had a similar idea a while back.

I think it's a great idea.


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## hpeer

I'm really against the idea of more regulation.

First I don't trust the regulators to get it right.

Second, in cases where folks put only themselves in danger they should be allowed to do any damn thing they want. The gene pool is too big already, a little thinning is in order.

Think of motorcycle Helmut laws. Let 'me ride without helmets. BUT pass a law that says if you ride without a Helmut and take a head injury, the State is not on the hook for your medical bills. You take the risks, you suffer the consequences. 

You can't legislate common sense, and legislators have no common sense. That's just common sense.


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## jppp

Wow


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## billyruffn

DRFerron said:


> One of the things that crossed my mind is shouldn't a 50 foot boat designed for open water be capable of withstanding those conditions? IF they truly had a 50 footer designed to be out there (I don't see where they say the type of boat) and IF there were no structural issues to begin with?


Problem is that there are 50 ft boats that are designed for three couples to enjoy a week in the BVI and not much else.


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## billyruffn

MarkofSeaLife said:


> 900 miles NE of Bermuda...
> 
> The only trip they could of been doing is Newport to Falmouth 2790nms or Newport to Azores
> Best tine says Jimmy Cornell June thru August. I dont think mid April is in that time period. Just ice alone oon the northern route makes it dangerous, let alone the weather.
> 
> Btw with forward bulkheads... Keep the bloody doors closed!
> 
> What sort of boat was it?


If they were on passage between the Caribbean and the UK and had stopped in Bermuda, they could easily find themselves 900nm NE of Bermuda. As for timing...they're a couple weeks ahead of the crowd. ARC Europe leaves Tortola in a few days.

...and, if you're in a boat that needs the doors closed to maintain structural integrity, you probably shouldn't be in the middle of the Atlantic at any time of year. 

Maybe we should start a pool to guess the brand of the boat. My guess is it's French.


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## UnionPacific

MarkofSeaLife said:


> It appears to be ex-Tylosa a 2006 Beneteau 50 (marketed in USA as 49)
> 
> Voilier Occasion beneteau oceanis50 Quillard 50 pieds (15.2 mètres) 2006 | Bateau, location de voilier et sport nautique


I have been hearing all bad things about french boats as of late. rudders falling off, now breaking up in 25' seas? those yachts must be built really lightly.
The sister ship to our boat rode out breaking 35' in the tasman sea. starting to think the best use for french boats are coastal.


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## joethecobbler

interesting thread, interesting discussion and topic.

When I've read the initial media reports of the different maritime losses. Bounty, the sick child, the dismasted 16yr.old etc. I noticed that the initial reports were always vague. with one thing in common. FEAR. And the perpetuation of fear,as well as CONFUSION.
I had to read about this particular incident over several times to realize that the Coast Guard wasn't even in the water concerning these folks. I'm not saying they weren't incidental,but they didn't pull them out of the water.
My point is,it's apparent something went wrong, it's also accepted that this winter has been a harsh one.and based on the quote from the vessel owner /captain, there was an issue with Hull failure due to unknown reasons.
I think it is absolutely possible that if this sort of thing gets in the teeth of the media, public interest and becomes a topic the do-gooder momma knows best government could definitely knee jerk and respond with regulations.
Particularly if a commercial interest with any political connection or influence can see a dollar to be made.
Just look at the insurance lobby.it influences almost all aspects of most people's lives today. From life insurance to liability and many if not most on this board and the developed world are convinced that it (insurance) cannot be done without and anyone who would think or act otherwise is irresponsible, foolish, uninformed, selfish, and even criminal.
do I think it will lead to more regulations?
well,the next time you're randomly boarded,think about what the first things they want to see you purchased and posess.


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## sandy stone

UnionPacific said:


> starting to think the best use for french boats are coastal.


I know of a J/120 that suffered delamination along the keel in an offshore race and would have sunk had the CG not arrived in time with salvage pumps. Does that suggest to you that all US boats are only suitable for coastal use?


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## UnionPacific

sandy stone said:


> I know of a J/120 that suffered delamination along the keel in an offshore race and would have sunk had the CG not arrived in time with salvage pumps. Does that suggest to you that all US boats are only suitable for coastal use?


Yes. I love the new cat built in the north east. I hear it can nearly make the first passage without being abandoned.


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## joethecobbler

as to the quality of boats being built. I think I like the stuff that has a looooonnng track record of taking a licking and keep on floating.
can't really badmouth the tried and true.
they might be slower or less efficient and not have a new whatever, but if it's still floating when the danger passes,I take note.


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## UnionPacific

And that is why I bought a Tayana. I have yet to hear the story of a tayana breaking up.
same goes for a lot of south east Asian boats. 
I guess if your staying coastal you could buy whatever, even a cat maybe.


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## goboatingnow

> And that is why I bought a Tayana. I have yet to hear the story of a tayana breaking up.
> same goes for a lot of south east Asian boats.
> I guess if your staying coastal you could buy whatever, even a cat maybe.


I don't know about that now, I sailed with a guy , who tayana had big delamination problems, another had leaking windows and then theres " leaky teaky"



> I have been hearing all bad things about french boats as of late. rudders falling off, now breaking up in 25' seas? those yachts must be built really lightly.


Given the zillions out there , with many circumnavigating, I suspect an odd one has its rudder fall off, ( very odd and usually existing damage).

We don't really know what happened, the report suggest 25 foot seas, if breaking can cause issues, equally even having a bulkhead move, is not a reason to loose a GRP boat, Beneteau in my experience., build a good strong boat. Ive taken several through extremely bad ocean weather . IN my experience, its rarely the boat, but often the boat gets the blame,

dave


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## joethecobbler

I've been sailing a 30+ year old bayliner. I've been off shore in conditions described. bayliner built loads of them. my previous boat was a bayliner still floating. does that make it a great sailboat, or just good weather watching and luck?
also, for every 100 boats made of a particular make, how many actually leave the dock?
I too remember reading about the rudders breaking off the beneteau's and owners posting that it was somewhat common.
I feel more of an un-skegged issue than quality one.


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## capt vimes

in most of the GRP boats the bulkheads are simply wooden panels set in some sort of groove... it is not supposed to take very much load...
so i think that the hull must have been breached at the bulkhead hence the water ingress and breaking the bulkhead or prying it loose...
the only reasons i could think of as why this happened - they either hit something or the slamming loads falling from a steep wave was just that bit too much (not very likely unless they had a damage to the hull there from an earlier incident)...

but what do i know... just earlier in the year the open 60 from bernand stamm broke in two...


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## UnionPacific

goboatingnow said:


> I don't know about that now, I sailed with a guy , who tayana had big delamination problems, another had leaking windows and then theres " leaky teaky"


leaking teak, so true. Its the first choice you have to make when you buy one.
For me the answer was to keep it. So for almost a year now I have been on a quest. I have 80% of the deck done. un-bung, un-screw, fill with epoxy, redrill, cover screw in 5200, screw in, plug in. I believe the teak adds strength, as well as looks, and antiskid.


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## joethecobbler

I thought the beneteau had a molded interior, not sure.
It seems the adage "they don't make em like they used to" might apply.
Many things seem to be made with more engineering and less material.
Or as I would call it,cheap, flimsy and not built to last. not limited to the marine market, but look at all the plastic single season overpriced junk west marine offers.


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## christian.hess

UnionPacific said:


> I have been hearing all bad things about french boats as of late. rudders falling off, now breaking up in 25' seas? those yachts must be built really lightly.
> The sister ship to our boat rode out breaking 35' in the tasman sea. starting to think the best use for french boats are coastal.


maybe modern ones(and even then quite a claim as you see these issues all over the world) but back then I could think of a lot of french boats that were built like tanks and quite the sailors, very well built

dufour comes to mind

like the arpege


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## goboatingnow

joethecobbler said:


> I thought the beneteau had a molded interior, not sure.
> It seems the adage "they don't make em like they used to" might apply.
> Many things seem to be made with more engineering and less material.
> Or as I would call it,cheap, flimsy and not built to last. not limited to the marine market, but look at all the plastic single season overpriced junk west marine offers.


Beneteau depending on the model has a full or partial liner, like most boats these days, Liners suit automated production as they provide a easily installable base for automated furniture assembly modules.

Perhaps you have some facts to back those assertions up. Boats have been lost in the atlantic forever,


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## smurphny

It seems like everything is built with less attention to quality than to profit nowadays. It's puzzling because there *are* those few companies that have figured out, as the few have throughout history, that quality pays in the long term. Apple comes to mind. When you make something of quality, people figure it out. When you make crap (American car manufacturers come to mind) people eventually figure that out too. When the beancounters rather than the engineers start to call the shots, companies decline.


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## joethecobbler

engineers, the Erie canal employed zero engineers in it's initial digging /construction.
I'll put my trust in a seasoned tradesman, with a apprentice background before a book taught engineer working to the behest of a boss or worse, a boardroom.


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## smurphny

joethecobbler said:


> engineers, the Erie canal employed zero engineers in it's initial digging /construction.
> I'll put my trust in a seasoned tradesman, with a apprentice background before a book taught engineer working to the behest of a boss or worse, a boardroom.


The term "engineer" had a different meaning back when capability rather than a piece of paper determined who designed things but many of the great engineers also had a degree from a good college. The folks who designed the Pyramids probably had no degree from Harvard It just seems to have gone too far in the degree-only mentality.


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## TQA

I think the bulkhead problem might have been rudder related.

If I have the right boat they had a major rudder problem recently which meant either a new rudder or a rebuild. 

I guess there might have been some hidden damage to the structure that supports the rudder.


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## Dave_E

After reading 5 pages of comments, I will add my .02. We are all at different levels of sailing experience. I might have a masters degree in oceanography and be a marginal sailor. Another might be a master sailor who thinks he can get away with more risk because he's done it ten times. The boat was just surveyed and given an A+... but there was a hidden crack no one could ever see and heavy sea forces caused it to break... sometimes, sh** happens dispite the best laid intentions and preparation.

I'm glad the couple and their dog are safe, sorry for his loss and their ordeal at sea. Way too many arm chair sailors ready to lay blame and preach "I woulda, you shoulda, and you coulda.

Thank you Coast Guardsmen and proffessional seaman of the world.

Dave


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## JonEisberg

TQA said:


> I think the bulkhead problem might have been rudder related.
> 
> If I have the right boat they had a major rudder problem recently which meant either a new rudder or a rebuild.
> 
> I guess there might have been some hidden damage to the structure that supports the rudder.


Yup, that's it... Well, if you classify a rudder breaking clean off and floating away as "a major rudder problem", that is 

Damn, no insurance, either... that's gonna hurt... Makes being in that part of the North Atlantic this early in the season, prior to having concluded a "negotiation" with an underwriter, just a tad more questionable, no?

For those that don't do Facebook, I've copied this from the Grenada Cruisers Facebook page:



> Such sad news! Tylosa, renamed Blue Pearl a 50ft Benetau, with my friends Len, Lisa and Dexter (their dog) plus a crew member, lost their home heading for the Azores. Luckily all 4 were safely rescued and are back on land safe and sound, *but not being insured due to delays in negotiating same, have lost everything, except their lives!* I met them down in Prickly in Grenada and many others out here on this FB page also will know of them. I have been in contact with Len and Lisa and confirmed that it was their aft bulkhead that broke up. Sadly it could all be related to previous damage that was not picked up in a survey when they bought the boat as a few months ago they lost their rudder off Martinique and a new one was fitted, but obviously no-body saw any other damage then. Very sad.


And, a thread from Cruisers Forum regarding the original loss of the rudder:



> Well folks, every sailor has a fear of something. We have just been through a massive ordeal and are appealing for any help we can get. We were 72nm out in the Caribbean off Martinique (on our way from Grenada to St. Martin). Doing 6.5knots in 16knots of wind on a starboard broad reach in our 2007 Beneteau Oceanis 50 when suddenly without warning our rudder sheared right off! Yes, you read it right.
> 
> Rudder nightmare at sea - Cruisers & Sailing Forums


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## smurphny

Those long, thin rudders, such as on a Ben.50 that sit at a right angle to the hull seem like a bad idea for something that has to survive in the ocean. There is obviously a great deal of leverage being applied to the point at which they enter the hull. You don't need a degree in physics to see that. They are stuck right out there to catch anything that might be in the water as well. Is there something I'm missing here about the design of these things? IMO, it just seems logical that a boat that is designed to deal with the ocean needs its rudder protected by either sitting behind a solid projection in the hull or having some sort of bottom plate to hold a bottom bearing. I was surprised to see how fragile these look.


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## christian.hess

oooooohh aaaahhh this should be in the design threads so people can bash old boats and praise new ones for such improvements and better performance and seaworthiness!

man what a bummer


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## Sanduskysailor

I have been offshore in the north atlantic in early April. It can easily be a washing machine with 25 foot steep, confused and short duration waves. We were in a boat (55 foot aluminum pilot house) that survived 3 days of 25 footers. Imagine dropping your boat 25 feet and you will get an idea what happens when you encounter the occasional freak backless wave. Then do it about 10 times/day for 3 days. Real easy to start breaking things when that happens. The Beneteau 50 is not cored and has large panels. Probably flexed like crazy in those conditions.

We had a good forecast for our trip but 5 days out of St. Thomas things changed rapidly. You have no options at that point. In hindsight, a better passage time would have been in mid May. I wouldn't be too hard on the owners or boat in question. Better boats than a Beneteau 50 have had structural problems in that stretch of water when the waves are up in that area.


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## UnionPacific

Dave_E said:


> After reading 5 pages of comments, I will add my .02. We are all at different levels of sailing experience. I might have a masters degree in oceanography and be a marginal sailor. Another might be a master sailor who thinks he can get away with more risk because he's done it ten times. The boat was just surveyed and given an A+... but there was a hidden crack no one could ever see and heavy sea forces caused it to break... sometimes, sh** happens dispite the best laid intentions and preparation.
> 
> I'm glad the couple and their dog are safe, sorry for his loss and their ordeal at sea. Way too many arm chair sailors ready to lay blame and preach "I woulda, you shoulda, and you coulda.
> 
> Thank you Coast Guardsmen and proffessional seaman of the world.
> 
> Dave


I dont think anyone is saying more then winter passages in the north Atlantic are not smart.


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## billyruffn

Ummmm....French. How did I guess that? They don't call them "bendy toys" for nothin'!

Excuse the rant, but seriously guys (and gals), there have been numerous discussions on this forum about what makes for a good, safe offshore sailing boat. Now we know what doesn't.

When boats are built in large numbers, for a low price point and to cater to the tropical charter trade, this is what you get. It's not the first time for this boat, apparently, or others.....recall the Bene 40 that lost its rudder and sank off Long Island on the way to the 2008 Bermuda Race, or those being shipped on their bottoms from France to the Caribbean in the early 2000s which began to come apart mid ocean.

I'm not saying all Benes are unfit for offshore sailing -- I went to 80N in a First 345 and that boat is solid as a rock, ....but it was also of mid 80s vintage, and built in France before the brand was diverted to mass production. I also sailed on a Bene 44 from Bermuda to NE at speed safely because the owner had spent a tidy sum reinforcing the rudder box before it had a chance to fail.

Someone posted above that our focus should be on "lessons" to be drawn from this disaster. My take away is that when you venture into waters were things can get nasty (as it can in the North Atlantic in April in the Gulf Stream), you owe it to yourself and those with you to do it in a strong, well found sailing boat and not something that was designed and built for seasonal sailing in the tropics or somewhere equally benign. These boats are probably great for learning the ropes, but when you sell the house and strike out to see the world, do it in a boat whose rudder won't fall off or one where the bulkheads won't suddenly separate from the hull.

[/rant off]


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## MarkofSeaLife

UnionPacific said:


> I dont think anyone is saying more then winter passages in the north Atlantic are not smart.


I fail to understand why people do not realise this is another sinking where the cruisers were sailing in the wrong season.

Just as stupid for all to be looking at the type of boat ( beneteau this week, Hans Christian last week) we should be looking at the location and how NOT to do the same things ourselves.

I am doing that trip next year and I am not going anywhere near the Azores! My CPA to those piles of rock is 350nms SOUTH of the Azores. And in the correct month of.... June.


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## JonEisberg

smurphny said:


> Those long, thin rudders, such as on a Ben.50 that sit at a right angle to the hull seem like a bad idea for something that has to survive in the ocean. There is obviously a great deal of leverage being applied to the point at which they enter the hull. You don't need a degree in physics to see that. They are stuck right out there to catch anything that might be in the water as well. Is there something I'm missing here about the design of these things? IMO, it just seems logical that a boat that is designed to deal with the ocean needs its rudder protected by either sitting behind a solid projection in the hull or having some sort of bottom plate to hold a bottom bearing. I was surprised to see how fragile these look.


I think way too much is typically made out of the perceived weakness/vulnerability of spade rudders on voyaging boats. One of the boats losing a rudder in last fall's Salty Dawg Rally was an Alden of a top-notch build quality with a skeg-hung rudder, so what does that 'prove'?

Designers such as Bob Perry, Chuck Paine, Steve Dashew have long shown that a properly engineered spade can be suitable for distance and high-latitude voyaging... Even as conservative a sailor as John Harries on MORGAN'S CLOUD is going with a spade for the Adventure 40, for example...

If indeed Beneteau's engineering and constuction of the spade on that boat proved insufficient, what is to say that it would have been any more superior had it been skeg-hung? As usual, I think Evans Starzinger sums this issue up perfectly:



> Many 'sailing experts' say that spade rudders are inherently weak and unsuitable for offshore use. This is flat out ridiculous. If you take the weight of a skeg and put that same weight into extra material in the spade rudder shaft and bearings you will end up with an extremely strong, essentially 'unbreakable' rudder. We inadvertently proved this by bouncing our spade rudder off rocks in Iceland for an hour. It held up to the abuse, maintained watertight integrity and the bearings were still within 2/1000 of specification when we measured them 10,000 miles later. With (full height) skeg rudders the lower bearing is often quite vulnerable to this sort of grounding. The plain fact is that you can build strong & reliable rudders of either sort or you can build weak and unreliable ones. It's simply a matter of proper engineering and construction.
> 
> Too many modern 'offshore cruising boat' rudders have been engineered to meet only 'expected sailing loads'. A cruising or offshore rudder must be designed (and constructed) to survive full speed impact loads and not just sailing loads. The rudder on an offshore boat WILL hit stuff - from rocks to large sunken logs to containers. The rudder must be able to survive these impacts without catastrophic damage and still bring the boat back to safe harbor. This can be done without great difficulty, expense or weight, but the customer must make it a priority. The rudder (shaft & bearings) are normally out of sight and are common places for builders to save money and/or weight.
> 
> Boats.


----------



## blowinstink

MarkofSeaLife said:


> No data and i think its getting safer.
> 
> "Your" congress has nothing to do with it: it was a British boat on route from the Caribbean to Azores via Bermuda. Where does the USA get involved?
> 
> What i would like to see, on the mico level, is a forum on this forum for vessels lost, missing, in danger etc. so every one of these threads, and nothing else, goes into its own section so we can keep an eye on how many boats are being lost, or get into difficulties.
> 
> Anyone support the idea? And is there a Mod to action it?


There has been some discussion of this on CF and some halting efforts. In particular David Old Jersey (DOJ) had a site up for a bit which he subsequently pulled. I think that it is a great idea and I would be happy to participate getting it up and running.


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## smurphny

These type rudders, if designed with enough strength to withstand water loads can probably be strong enough for water. I simply don't buy the idea that they can withstand catching a hefty piece of wood, or a 3" floating piece of trashed hawser, a Mola Mola, etc. There are lots of things in the water and the likelihood of hitting them is high. That appendage has no protection. There is just too much leverage potential. There is almost no angle so that the thing can even attempt to shed anything it may snag. No matter what a designer may claim about the strength of this kind of rudder, common sense suggests otherwise. It would not be surprising if the boats with the rudders that just snapped off actually caught something other than water.


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## Capt Len

Ok, there's apparently a problem with the rudder design .Makes the vessel a tad vulnerable to the real ocean. But when the back of the boat is full of water slamming the bulkhead and it fails too, that's really time to consider overall strength of all the parts. Designing to a low price, minimal construction for profit ? A good ad agent can make this go away but I've never seen a benni that wasn't more bling than tough


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## blowinstink

Capt Len said:


> Ok, there's apparently a problem with the rudder design .Makes the vessel a tad vulnerable to the real ocean. But when the back of the boat is full of water slamming the bulkhead and it fails too, that's really time to consider overall strength of all the parts. Designing to a low price, minimal construction for profit ? A good ad agent can make this go away but I've never seen a benni that wasn't more bling than tough


What is this bulkhead and how do we know water slammed against it? Are we talking about the back of the house? If so, were they running (that would be an interesting piece of info for the Pardey v Roth storm tactics match)? Anyway, I just don't know how anyone can debate any aspect of this incident yet -- we have essentially no information -- just a bunch of questions.


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## capta

Once, long long ago, there was this Canadian maxi named Greybeard. It was the ugliest boat ever entered in the TransPac, but it was way ahead of all the other boats, until it's spade rudder folded over and they were out of the race. I believe Kia Loa, a truly lovely boat, won that race. This was a boat upon which no money was spared, designed and built to win this race, and yet they couldn't design a spade rudder to hold up to the stresses.
Almost everyone on here goes on and on about safety equipment and being prepared for the "sh*t happens" stuff, and yet some will choose a boat that has an inherent design weakness, for deep sea sailing. A keel or skeg hung rudder has SOME protection and SOME lower support. A spade has neither! No one can argue those points; they are fact. 
We met a couple who left the Canaries and lost their spade rudder TWICE, and the second time, the boat. Why would anyone buy a spade rudder boat for ocean voyaging?
Could it be it's because of the "get out of trouble free card" that is available these days. If rescue wasn't a mere few hours away (in many cases) would these people be so cavalier about taking a boat to sea with such an obvious weak point? I just do not see any pluses for the spade rudder on an ocean voyaging boat.
I do not carry what many on here consider absolutely necessary minimum safety equipment when I do crossings, but I wouldn't consider a spade rudder boat with all the safety gear available, nearly as safe as my old Pearson. I've been thumping around the waters of this world for quite some time and I've hit logs, a whale, trees, boards, fishing nets and floats, a container and Neptune only knows what else. So far, the boats I've taken to sea have survived these encounters, though not a single one had a spade rudder. I just cannot understand why anyone would buy a spade rudder boat for ocean voyaging.


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## capta

Once, long long ago, there was this Canadian maxi named Greybeard. It was the ugliest boat ever entered in the TransPac, but it was way ahead of all the other boats, until it's spade rudder folded over and they were out of the race. I believe Kia Loa, a truly lovely boat, won that race. This was a boat upon which no money was spared, designed and built to win this race, and yet they couldn't design a spade rudder to hold up to the stresses.
Almost everyone on here goes on and on about safety equipment and being prepared for the "sh*t happens" stuff, and yet some will choose a boat that has an inherent design weakness, for deep sea sailing. A keel or skeg hung rudder has SOME protection and SOME lower support. A spade has neither! No one can argue those points; they are fact. 
We met a couple who left the Canaries and lost their spade rudder TWICE, and the second time, the boat. Why would anyone buy a spade rudder boat for ocean voyaging?
Could it be it's because of the "get out of trouble free card" that is available these days. If rescue wasn't a mere few hours away (in many cases) would these people be so cavalier about taking a boat to sea with such an obvious weak point? I just do not see any pluses for the spade rudder on an ocean voyaging boat.
I do not carry what many on here consider absolutely necessary minimum safety equipment when I do crossings, but I wouldn't consider a spade rudder boat with all the safety gear available, nearly as safe as my old Pearson. I've been thumping around the waters of this world for quite some time and I've hit logs, a whale, trees, boards, fishing nets and floats, a container and Neptune only knows what else. So far, the boats I've taken to sea have survived these encounters, though not a single one had a spade rudder. I just cannot understand why anyone would buy a spade rudder boat for ocean voyaging.


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## Shockwave

Our boat has a spade rudder, it seems to have held up ok. The boat has been along the West Coast, Mexico, Hawaii, South America, the Caribbean, the Med, the East Coast, the Great Lakes and few other spots. So far so good, knock wood.



capta said:


> Once, long long ago, there was this Canadian maxi named Greybeard. It was the ugliest boat ever entered in the TransPac, but it was way ahead of all the other boats, until it's spade rudder folded over and they were out of the race. I believe Kia Loa, a truly lovely boat, won that race. This was a boat upon which no money was spared, designed and built to win this race, and yet they couldn't design a spade rudder to hold up to the stresses.
> Almost everyone on here goes on and on about safety equipment and being prepared for the "sh*t happens" stuff, and yet some will choose a boat that has an inherent design weakness, for deep sea sailing. A keel or skeg hung rudder has SOME protection and SOME lower support. A spade has neither! No one can argue those points; they are fact.
> We met a couple who left the Canaries and lost their spade rudder TWICE, and the second time, the boat. Why would anyone buy a spade rudder boat for ocean voyaging?
> Could it be it's because of the "get out of trouble free card" that is available these days. If rescue wasn't a mere few hours away (in many cases) would these people be so cavalier about taking a boat to sea with such an obvious weak point? I just do not see any pluses for the spade rudder on an ocean voyaging boat.
> I do not carry what many on here consider absolutely necessary minimum safety equipment when I do crossings, but I wouldn't consider a spade rudder boat with all the safety gear available, nearly as safe as my old Pearson. I've been thumping around the waters of this world for quite some time and I've hit logs, a whale, trees, boards, fishing nets and floats, a container and Neptune only knows what else. So far, the boats I've taken to sea have survived these encounters, though not a single one had a spade rudder. I just cannot understand why anyone would buy a spade rudder boat for ocean voyaging.


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## Capt Len

Blowin No matter, running,beating or just waiting to sink. If you got water loose in the boat and it's rough ,big trouble It's called free surface, Thats why tanks got baffles and boats got bulkheads. A big plywood panel tabbed on to a glass hull that is flexing apparently doesn't cut it .As for the Graybeard . In her day she was a pretty impressive (if ugly) craft.I think other designers looked at her rudder and thought it was tweakable Haw!


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## benesailor

These people are signed up for the world ARC. Say what you will; nobody seems to be listening to you.

As you have seen before.....Count how many skeg hung/ full keel boats there are:

World Cruising Club - World ARC Entries

They are all going to die.


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## JonEisberg

benesailor said:


> These people are signed up for the world ARC. Say what you will; nobody seems to be listening to you.
> 
> As you have seen before.....Count how many skeg hung/ full keel boats there are:
> 
> World Cruising Club - World ARC Entries
> 
> They are all going to die.


Sadly, the high latitude legend Ned Cabot is no longer with us, but his spade rudder never prevented him from numerous voyages to places like Greenland, Svalbard, or Jan Mayen...










No doubt, it's just a matter of time before the rudder on Beth & Evans' HAWK suffers a catastrophic failure... No matter, they've always gone to sea knowing they've got that "Get Out of Jail Free Card" in their chart table...










One thing many might fail to appreciate regarding the supposed additional strength afforded by a skeg, is the extreme difficulty of laminating a structure high strength on a fiberglass yacht built from a female mold. Picture the narrowness and depth of the mold from which this sort of skeg was formed:










How would one ensure a layup to a proper schedule inside such a cavity? What, pour in some epoxy, drop in some chopped strand mat, and stir it with a stick? Then, rinse and repeat?

The fact is, it is FAR easier to build a rudderstock to exacting scantlings, than it would be to ensure the structural integrity of many skegs on fiberglass yachts... If you want a bulletproof skeg that will add great torsional rigidity and support to a rudder, you'd better _WELD_ it to your hull...


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## Don L

I read page 1 then skipped to page 3 just to see the thread became the same old same old boat trashing discussion. 

The only thing I got out of the thread is; don't sail out of "season" for a long voyage. Is there really more to be learned on this one?


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## smurphny

JonEisberg said:


> Sadly, the high latitude legend Ned Cabot is no longer with us, but his spade rudder never prevented him from numerous voyages to places like Greenland, Svalbard, or Jan Mayen...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt, it's just a matter of time before the rudder on Beth & Evans' HAWK suffers a catastrophic failure... No matter, they've always gone to sea knowing they've got that "Get Out of Jail Free Card" in their chart table...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One thing many might fail to appreciate regarding the supposed additional strength afforded by a skeg, is the extreme difficulty of laminating a structure high strength on a fiberglass yacht built from a female mold. Picture the narrowness and depth of the mold from which this sort of skeg was formed:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How would one ensure a layup to a proper schedule inside such a cavity? What, pour in some epoxy, drop in some chopped strand mat, and stir it with a stick? Then, rinse and repeat?
> 
> The fact is, it is FAR easier to build a rudderstock to exacting scantlings, than it would be to ensure the structural integrity of many skegs on fiberglass yachts... If you want a bulletproof skeg that will add great torsional rigidity and support to a rudder, you'd better _WELD_ it to your hull...


Those narrow skegs may actually increase overall vulnerability. If it gets hit hard enough, it's not just bye-bye rudder, but bye-bye hull. If a rudder is designed to snap off before it rips a hole in the hull (which I'm thinking must be part of good engineering), an emergency rudder can be devised, but a hole in the hull is another story.(a short one)


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## JonEisberg

smurphny said:


> Those narrow skegs may actually increase overall vulnerability. If it gets hit hard enough, it's not just bye-bye rudder, but bye-bye hull. If a rudder is designed to snap off before it rips a hole in the hull (which I'm thinking must be part of good engineering), an emergency rudder can be devised, but a hole in the hull is another story.(a short one)


Here's Steve Dashew's take, I believe he knows a thing or two about designing boats for offshore voyaging:



> Years ago the debate about the most effective rudder for steering was settled, and the cantilevered spade configuration was the winner. But what about hitting debris, running aground, and catching nets you might be thinking.
> 
> First: structure. We can tell you from our own experience, and the feedback from owners who have tested our theory, that a properly engineered spade rudder is stronger and more damage tolerant than skeg or keel hung fins.
> 
> There are three keys to this strength. The first is a substantial strong rudder shaft. Our norm is to use twice ABS and/or Lloyds Special Service rule as the baseline stiffness specification. Next comes sufficient hull strength and gusseting of rudder bearing carrier(s) where they connect to the hull for long life and abuse. The last item is a frangible rudder tip, so that it goes away before the rudder shaft itself is damaged, leaving the upper two thirds of the blade with which to continue on.
> 
> The photo above is the rudder on the FPB 64 Iron Lady, which spent several hours pounding on a reef. It will give you a feel for how tough these blades are.
> 
> Next comes catching things on the rudder. Here we have a swept leading edge to shed, and almost total protection from the full depth prop skeg.
> 
> The alternative is a skeg hung rudder, or a spade with a beam from the trailing edge of the keel to the bottom of the rudder. The problem with both of these approaches is damage tolerance. If either is bent from pounding, then the rudder is jammed and you have no steering.
> 
> We've cruised well over 250,000 miles now with spade rudders, and done our share of running aground, and we are happy to report we've yet to have a problem.
> 
> SetSail» Blog Archive » What is the Best Rudder Configuration ? Spade, or Skeg Mounted?


One would think from the line drawing of this Roberts 44, "this looks like a pretty bulletproof skeg/rudder arrangement", no?










Well, think again... A difficult question to answer with any degree of precision:

How much should a skeg flex on a Roberts 44? - Boat Design Forums










Bob Perry tells an amusing story about a phone call he got from the owner of NIGHT RUNNER, when cruising off Mexico...

The skeg "fell off", and he was looking for the original design drawings so he could have a new one built...

Bob asked him how the boat sailed without the skeg, and the guy replied _"Better..."_


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## capta

JonEisberg said:


> One thing many might fail to appreciate regarding the supposed additional strength afforded by a skeg, is the extreme difficulty of laminating a structure high strength on a fiberglass yacht built from a female mold. Picture the narrowness and depth of the mold from which this sort of skeg was formed:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How would one ensure a layup to a proper schedule inside such a cavity? What, pour in some epoxy, drop in some chopped strand mat, and stir it with a stick? Then, rinse and repeat?
> 
> The fact is, it is FAR easier to build a rudderstock to exacting scantlings, than it would be to ensure the structural integrity of many skegs on fiberglass yachts... If you want a bulletproof skeg that will add great torsional rigidity and support to a rudder, you'd better _WELD_ it to your hull...


Well, this has to be THE most interesting bit of logic I think I've run across on this site.
Sure, people CAN sail spade rudder boats anywhere they please and of course, most will get away with it, just like those who have sailed Hunters around the world; it can and is done.
But all that other garbage about it being stronger to build a spade rudder system on a boat than attaching a skeg; not really getting through to me on that one.
I have seen a considerable number of fiberglass boats on reefs and rocky shoals that have sustained rudder damage, but I have NEVER seen a skeg break or fall off. Sorry, I've just not seen this "weak" point you are trying to pass off. I'm sure almost everyone would agree that the spade rudder is certainly more vulnerable in this scenario than the skeg rudder, and yet you seem to say otherwise.
Of course, there are boats built like crap out there; case in point the boat pictured here that lost it's skeg, but this certainly does not happen with any regularity. Perhaps, on a custom boat, built to the specs of a knowledgeable owner, it is possible to have a spade rudder that could stand up to a worst case scenario, but on a standard production boat, I don't see that sort of care or design intention.
Still, no one has answered the basic question; why would anyone want to go ocean voyaging on a standard production boat (which is what most of us sail) with a spade rudder, rather than a keel hung or skeg hung rudder?


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## christian.hess

a spade that is designed to snap off at the hull so it doesnt damage or break the hull is an awesome peice if engineering...and to me is and should be race only...perfect...

why is that a bragging point however and why would you want that on your "cruising" boat and chose this for a rally or crossing the atlantic

I agree guys...never understand why people chose to say just cause somebdoy has done it that its better or equall or stronger etc...

in any case it seems the boat in question had sustained siginficant damage already to hull and bulkhead from A NOTHER RUDDER RELATED ISSUE and wasnt properly repaired or diagnosed...

I wonder if this would of happened with a full keeler and barndoor rudder?

probably NOT.

ps. capta I have read of skegs falling off, or being severly damaged, they usually were very shallow skegs on crappy boats or built boats that werent necessarily desiged well or appealingly...

still its rare...

this thread and what happened to the bene has more to do with a pre exisiting condition on a "delicate" design if you will that anything else...like being unprepared or in the WORST possible time and place which is a bit of a stretch

anywhoo


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## Maine Sail

capta said:


> I have seen a considerable number of fiberglass boats on reefs and rocky shoals that have sustained rudder damage, but I have NEVER seen a skeg break or fall off.


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## Kostis

Its all this freedom... by the way, if they change the regulations you can change flag on your boat.


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## Kostis

And if they change the regulations to a point that lower income people cannot afford it i will start a petition campaign to forbid it for the rich too!


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## killarney_sailor

I think your petition would have about the same impact as the one to the White House to get Justin Bieber exported from the US.


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## christian.hess

isnt he canadian? more like exported from the planet! jajaja


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## christian.hess

back to rudders and boats nothing is bomb proof....any boat can be damaged and sunk out there so just be careful

I think this thread has gone way technical and not necessarily informative regarding what happened

any boat that has had a problem and has not been repaired correctly will invariably have much higer probabilities of suffering damage again most likely in the same spot, as a consequence of that previous damage

that applies to most things, a mast, an engine, a dinghy with a patch in it, a tube, a wire whatever!

pardon the redundancy...


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## Kostis

Maybe you are right. But i am petitioning all the time for animal rights. I get letters from senators and governors every 1-2 months. I would just try harder in this case. lol. Bieber is an artist. I dont know why he should be exported. He is legal in the US. So why would a petition be against him? While a petition against economic discrimination makes more sense


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## christian.hess

cause hes a douche I guess...thats why jajajaja


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## Kostis

Come on. He is just a kid leaving every kids dream. I wish i as him when i was a kid. Damn i wish i was him now. Women, partying getting payed like 100 doctors, never having to work really, people listening to what you have to say. 

He is also living an immigrant's dream. First is Arnold of course...


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## christian.hess

weird...but off tangent so sorry...when they say he is an artist I cringe...its a false life and false job...I wish him the best but he is everything that is wrong with music today...

thats my opinion


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## Kostis

I dont like his art either. Never the less, when you create something that did not exist before and every product is unique, that's art. 
Today there are sounds. Not musicians i agree.


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## capta

Maine Sail said:


>


I didn't say it never happened, I just said I hadn't seen it, personally.
Would you be so kind as to identify the manufacturer of the boat in the picture?
I'm guessing a lot on here would like to steer clear of that manufacturer.
But to the point of the post you responded to, it still wasn't the skeg that came away from the hull; "is the extreme difficulty of laminating a structure high strength on a fiberglass yacht built from a female mold" and "than it would be to ensure the structural integrity of many skegs on fiberglass yachts...".
As to this particular Bene, it may, I repeat MAY, have been one of the many Bene 50's with the 4 cabin bareboat charter layout that have come out of service, that are and have been for sale quite cheaply (some as low as 50k) over the last 3 years. If so, this one could have dragged backwards into rocks or a reef at some time in her bareboat career, where she could have sustained the damage that led to her eventual demise. Most bareboat companies I know, have some of the most talented esthetic fiberglass repair people on speed dial, who can cover up major damage, without actually repairing the structural problems that may have been done.
I have heard of several people who have purchased ex-bareboats and subsequently found substantial problems that even a reputable surveyor didn't find.
Again, I do not know this to be the case with this boat, but it could explain what happened.


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## smurphny

Maine Sail said:


>


What is that, some hd foam with a couple of layers if mat? Pretty damned scary. There isn't much meat to hang a rudder on to begin with. The basic problem with these skegs is that they intersect the hull at a right angle as the one in Jon's picture. In order to distribute the load over a larger hull section, they probably ought to be at least partially "kneed" in. That would actually change the shape of the hull a bit but would make them a lot stronger.


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## JonEisberg

capta said:


> Well, this has to be THE most interesting bit of logic I think I've run across on this site.
> Sure, people CAN sail spade rudder boats anywhere they please and of course, most will get away with it, just like those who have sailed Hunters around the world; it can and is done.
> But all that other garbage about it being stronger to build a spade rudder system on a boat than attaching a skeg; not really getting through to me on that one.


Well, if the views of people like Steve Dashew, Bob Perry, and Evans Starzinger haven't made any impression, I certainly don't expect that anything I might say will 



capta said:


> I have seen a considerable number of fiberglass boats on reefs and rocky shoals that have sustained rudder damage, but I have NEVER seen a skeg break or fall off. Sorry, I've just not seen this "weak" point you are trying to pass off. I'm sure almost everyone would agree that the spade rudder is certainly more vulnerable in this scenario than the skeg rudder, and yet you seem to say otherwise.


I am saying that a properly engineered and constructed rudder is not necessarily, or by definition, more vulnerable. And, that on some production boats, the skeg is not necessarily a massively strong structure, due to the difficulty of fabricating out of fiberglass a structure of such depth, but with such a narrow chord width at the point of attachment to the hull - and particularly with boats popped out of a female mold...

For your sake, I hope Pearson did a better job with your skeg, than they did with this Pearson 40 that lost its rudder and skeg on a trip back from Hawaii:










And, I hope your skeg is not _hollow_, like those on the Pearson 365... Drilling a pilot hole in one of those is likely to reveal a very unpleasant surprise 










When Bob Perry speaks about the relative merits of skeg-hung vs spade rudders, I think its worth paying attention. After all, he's the guy who practically _invented_ the things, everyone thought he was nuts when he split the underbody, separated the rudder from the keel, and hung it on a skeg with the Valiant 40, and then had the nerve to call it a Bluewater Performance Cruiser 



> It wasn't so long ago that people thought I was being radical and reckless because I put a skeg hung rudder on a cruising boat.


He's written quite a bit about skegs over on Cruising Anarchy, here's a couple of comments in response to the following:



> Back in the '70s I worked in Bob Derecktor's yard in Dania and one problem we noticed with skegs was getting them strong.
> 
> The skeg would flex before the rudder shaft, so it was more of a fairing piece than a rudder support.





> I found the same thing. GRP skegs are very hard to build and there is many a rudder out there holding the skeg on...
> 
> Skegs are a hard shape to laminate when they are integral with the hull mold. You just can't get your arm down there to do any careful laminating. You need a broom stick to shove the glass into the bottom of the skeg. When I designed the Valiants and thre Lafittes I made the skegs independant of the hull and bolted and glassed on. This made it easier to lay up the skeg but it was an expensive detail...
> 
> I hesitate to even try to tell you how they laminated up deep skegs. Not sure you would believe me...
> 
> On a boat over 40' a skeg prevents you from having any balance to the rudder. I like some balance to relive some of the pressure on the helm. I'm working with nthe owners of a 60 plus foot boat that has a full skeg and they have helm balance issues. Having a skeg makes it only worse. Much worse...
> 
> That design study was an attempt to stretch out my Esprit 37 and gain some boat speed.
> 
> Would I change anything today? Yes, probably everything. I'd start by removing the skeg...
> 
> Are spade rudders stronger? I wouldn't generalize like that. Some are and some aren't. There are some real structural advantages to a carbon blade and stock combo as it can be made monocoque as one unit without the different combination of materials needed to make a steel stock grp blade rudder. Certainly on a welded alu or steel boat the skeg can be very strong.


Even on a metal boat, however, skegs can still fail, as Evans Starzinger noted:



> ...there was an aluminum Paine boat, where the Paine drawings clearly showed the skeg was supposed to be brought up thru the skin and tied to the frames, but the yard in fact just welded it to the outside of the skin. This was an 'expedition' boat and when the boat was in a rather remote place some of those skin welds popped and the skeq became wobbly - not good!





capta said:


> Still, no one has answered the basic question; why would anyone want to go ocean voyaging on a standard production boat (which is what most of us sail) with a spade rudder, rather than a keel hung or skeg hung rudder?


Partly because so few builders today are hanging rudders from skegs or keels, perhaps?

Bob Perry, again:



> A quick look around at a variety of boats including the latest H-R's will show you that the spade rudder is here to stay. It's a better rudder.


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## smurphny

Needless to say, a rudder placed farther aft like the spades are a heck of a lot more efficient at turning the boat, *especially in reverse*. One major drawback besides the inefficient placement is that keel hung rudders (like mine) are a lot of square feet of surface should the boat be thrown back.


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## SoOkay

Does anyone have any updated info on what really with this boat? Maybe because I sail a 50ft french boat I'm curious.


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## JonEisberg

SoOkay said:


> Does anyone have any updated info on what really with this boat? Maybe because I sail a 50ft french boat I'm curious.


Well, here's what I know so far...

The failure was to the "aft bulkhead", the boat was the Oceanis 50 "Owner's Version"...

That *MIGHT* have been related to earlier damage done under a previous owner (boat was never chartered), when the previous rudder "had some work done" on it, after the rudder "clipped a rock"...

That rudder subsequently sheared off last October while sailing in moderate conditions off Martinique... The whole saga is related in a very long thread on Cruiser's Forum...

Rudder nightmare at sea - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

The rudder post was basically fiberglass, here is the rather gruesome point of failure... To my untrained eye, looks like that laminate had been wet for quite awhile. Needless to say, it does not have the look of the sort of rudderpost I'd want on a boat of mine  The pic is oversized, so I'll just post the link:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=69358&d=1382807006

that rudder was replaced by another from the Beneteau factory, of similar constuction... This was all done with the boat in the water, she was never hauled...

Sadly, for whatever reason, the boat was not insured...

Oh, and these days, _EVERYONE_ has a blog...

Even 'Dexter', the Jack Russell aboard BLUE PEARL... 

Dexter - It's a dog's life: July 2013


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## capta

JonEisberg said:


> For your sake, I hope Pearson did a better job with your skeg, than they did with this Pearson 40 that lost its rudder and skeg on a trip back from Hawaii:


Once again a skeg that failed at a point other than the one that you called the weak point; the hull attachment of the skeg, so this pic is pointless.
As for Pearson's work, I also hope so. But I shall not give this thread the tiniest bit of thought when I am sailing my boat, because honestly, I believe my chances of being hit by a meteor are much greater than the skeg or rudder falling off this boat. And really, that's all that matters, isn't it; that we are each happy with the boats we've chosen.


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## Kostis

The rudder fell off the boat on the picture? Man that boat looks newish


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## capt vimes

capta said:


> Once again a skeg that failed at a point other than the one that you called the weak point; the hull attachment of the skeg, so this pic is pointless.


Why pointless?
It shows that on impact the skeg does not stand the force either and spade or skeg, your rudder is gone, isn't it? 

Once again the raceboats show the way to go:
Transom hung rudders which swings up and have a sort of fuse in case they hit something...


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## JonEisberg

capta said:


> Once again a skeg that failed at a point other than the one that you called the weak point; the hull attachment of the skeg, so this pic is pointless.


That is not what I've been saying at all... Quite the opposite, I have been pointing out that it is the overall depth and narrowness of most skegs that make them so problematic to fabricate a structure of high strength and rigidity from fiberglass, and have specifically alluded to the problem of forming a proper layup at the bottom of a skeg formed from a female mold, down where the highest loads will be seen...

As Bob Perry has indicated regarding the practices of Taiwanese builders back in the day, the process was often as described by another boatbuilder posting over on CA as _"Oh hell, just stuff it full of fiberglass scraps, pour in the resin, and watch the smoke!"_ 



capta said:


> But I shall not give this thread the tiniest bit of thought when I am sailing my boat, because honestly, I believe my chances of being hit by a meteor are much greater than the skeg or rudder falling off this boat. And really, that's all that matters, isn't it; that we are each happy with the boats we've chosen.


On that we can wholeheartedly agree...

My boat is a classic example of one originally built with a skeg that was all but worthless, similar in appearance to the one on the Pearson 40. Extremely high aspect, as far as I could tell, the only purpose it served was the bottom bracket holding the rudderpost in the boat, it offered no additional strength or protection whatsoever. I could easily deflect the bottom of the rudder from side to side as much as an inch, perhaps a bit more...

One of the best mods I've ever made to my boat was to rebuild the entire affair, and convert it to a pure spade... It's now pretty overbuilt, courtesy of a good friend in the rigging trade, I was able to replace the original 1 1/4" bronze shaft with a piece of 1 5/8" Nitronic 50 rod left over from a job on a 145' Perini Navi. In addition, I was able to extend the leading edge of the rudder out to about 15% of its chord length to make it much more balanced, and the overall improvement has been a revelation, and a huge improvement in the ability of the vane or autopilot to steer the boat... So, for me, the tradoff between skeg-hung and spade has been way more than acceptable...










This discussion does lead to an interesting question. Who are the remaining builders of offshore yachts still going with skeg-hung rudders? Hallberg-Rassy, Hylas, and Outbound, for example, are all using spades. Oyster is one of the few that come to mind still using a skeg... Who else is, nowadays?


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## UnionPacific

Crew Wanted: Atlantic crossing Departure Mid April 2014 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

who was this crew, and why did no one tell them an April crossing was not smart back then?


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## Shockwave

I feel sorry for the people, it seems like they've had a string of bad luck with the boat. Broken rudder shaft and now broken bulkheads leading to the loss of the boat. Pretty tough to watch your retirement in the islands sink before your eyes, especially considering the boat was uninsured.


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## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> Crew Wanted: Atlantic crossing Departure Mid April 2014 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
> 
> who was this crew, and why did no one tell them an April crossing was not smart back then?


Well, I'm not gonna beat up on these folks for sailing a couple of weeks outside of the generally recommended season for that passage. It's not like they left Hawaii for CA in March aboard a San Juan 24, after all, and yet that stupid stunt still produced no shortage of fanboys and cheerleaders around here 

Jimmy Cornell actually endorses the route from the Greater Antilles to Bermuda - a riskier passage, in my opinion - in April, and recommends May-June as the best time to head for the Azores... Sure, mid-April might be slightly earlier than I'd care to do that trip, but I wouldn't call it blatantly foolish. I think many people overreacted to the initial reports that placed them "East of Newfoundland", I've never seen the precise position given for the sinking, but I'd guess they weren't anywhere near that far north...

Additionally, all the reports I've read cite the "storm" that "battered" them as containing "40 MPH winds"... Let's face it, any crew or boat doing that passage, no matter what the season, could easily encounter such conditions, and should certainly be capable of withstanding such weather...

It would be interesting to hear more detail, what sort of tactics they might have employed, whether in fact they did have rudder/steering issues, and so on... The boat seems to have been possibly somewhat lightly equipped for a Transatlantic passage - they did not have a drogue at the time of their rudder loss last fall, for example. Of course, they might have obtained such gear in advance of the passage, but to me they sound like people who were cutting some corners with expenses - whining a bit about the expense of the tow back to Martinique and the cost of the new rudder, not bothering to haul the boat for a proper inspection when re-installing the new one, and of course apparently not having a survey done prior to purchasing the boat, and not having it insured...

Quite simply, an 8 year old 50' "Oceanis" shouldn't break up in gale conditions at sea... Based solely on what we know at this time, I'm more inclined to point the finger at a shortcoming or structural problem with that particular boat, rather than the decision to leave a couple of weeks sooner than most...

Given the choice between leaving Provo for the Azores in mid-April with a Hallberg-Rassy, for instance, or taking off in early May with a Beneteau Oceanis, well... I know which one I would take...


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## ntolst

MarkofSeaLife said:


> No data and i think its getting safer.
> 
> "Your" congress has nothing to do with it: it was a British boat on route from the Caribbean to Azores via Bermuda. Where does the USA get involved?
> 
> What i would like to see, on the mico level, is a forum on this forum for vessels lost, missing, in danger etc. so every one of these threads, and nothing else, goes into its own section so we can keep an eye on how many boats are being lost, or get into difficulties.
> 
> Anyone support the idea? And is there a Mod to action it?


Actually USA is directly involved in helping boats in distress regardless of their registry, nationalities of the crew and destinations in neutral waters hundreds of miles off US shores. Some wealthy countries like Bermuda don't keep a single helicopter to coduct SAR operations and completely rely on the USCG. I lost my sailboat, Niagara 35', due to the storm and massive leak several years ago 100 miles NW of Bermuda and was rescued by Turkish freighter directed to our location by USCG.


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## JonEisberg

ntolst said:


> I lost my sailboat, Niagara 35', due to the storm and massive leak several years ago 100 miles NW of Bermuda and was rescued by Turkish freighter directed to our location by USCG.


Damn, sorry to hear that - the Niagara is a very sweet boat, I especially like the Frers-designed 31... Yours sounds to me like a tale worth sharing, no? 

As regards BLUE PEARL, a bit more info from the BERMUDA GAZETTE... Seems like the failed bulkhead was very likely to have been related to the rudder damage the boat had suffered previously:



> The Rorke's boat got in trouble last Thursday evening after mounting seas put strain on the aft bulkhead of the yacht, which acts as a support for the rudder.
> 
> The bulkhead gave way under the battering from the sea and the rudder cables snapped, leaving the yacht taking on water and at the mercy of the waves
> 
> "Within a couple of hours, she was gone and we were leaping for our lives into a life raft," said Mr Rorke.
> 
> - See more at: Thank you Bermuda, from the bottom of our hearts | The Royal Gazette:Bermuda News


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## christian.hess

capt vimes said:


> Why pointless?
> It shows that on impact the skeg does not stand the force either and spade or skeg, your rudder is gone, isn't it?
> 
> Once again the raceboats show the way to go:
> Transom hung rudders which swings up and have a sort of fuse in case they hit something...


awesome!

just like a big hobie...Im surprised it took so long...

hardly modern by any means


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## UnionPacific

Its called a shear bolt, not a fuse....


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## smurphny

The boat surely should not have broken up like it appears to have done but they may have hit some really bad conditions even in a 40 knot wind. There are a lot of varying currents in that approximate area and if it were against the wind, it could have produced some awful conditions. If they were coming up to the shelf along Georges Bank, they could have run into short, nasty seas. Has there been any accurate mention of their position?


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## outbound

Seems like there has been a back and forth about spade rudders. I'm good with a spade. Stock rudder on my boat is 4" ss with no history of a single failure in 14 years of them sailing the oceans of the world. Only tangentially discussed is production boats on both sides of the pond having full or partial liners. This usually means furniture is not tabbed to hull let alone fully bonded on both sides and more importantly neither are bulkheads. It also means repairs or even inspection becomes problematic. This issue is not limited to bene s. I think old/ new school is not the key issue. Rather think the basic engineering and execution is what's most relevant to continued structural integrity. You see metal boats fail from interior rust, aluminum from electrolysis, cored from skins delaminating and solid glass from oil canning. No material is immune if poorly done and no boat if not properly inspected and repaired. Still for a number of reasons I think hull liners are a bad idea. Especially for a voyaging boat.


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## UnionPacific

If his boat was deemed repaired and seaworthy by a shop, I think he has a good case at a lawsuit.


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## JonEisberg

smurphny said:


> The boat surely should not have broken up like it appears to have done but they may have hit some really bad conditions even in a 40 knot wind. There are a lot of varying currents in that approximate area and if it were against the wind, it could have produced some awful conditions. If they were coming up to the shelf along Georges Bank, they could have run into short, nasty seas. Has there been any accurate mention of their position?


Hmmm, I doubt many folks sailing from the Turks & Caicos to the Azores pass very close to Georges Bank... 










The initial reports placed the area of the rescue as being roughly 900 miles NE of Bermuda...










They could have been in or close to the Stream in that area, though I'm a bit surprised they were that far north... Although, the latest story says they were headed to France instead of the Azores, so who knows?


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## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> If his boat was deemed repaired and seaworthy by a shop, I think he has a good case at a lawsuit.


Seems pretty unlikely to me...

Published reports say the last survey was done in 2007, which would mean they bought the boat without a survey...

Then, after losing a rudder they knew to have been previously damaged after "clipping a rock", they simply fitted a replacement with the boat in the water, never bothering to haul the boat for inspection... That one seems a bit hard to fathom...

They gambled, and lost... _BIGTIME_...

This is the first time I've ever heard something like this, however... Perhaps the implication is that they had only taken up _SAILING_ 7 months before?



> As they had only owned the boat for seven months, maritime insurers would only offer a third party premium - which does not cover a sinking.
> 
> Read more: Couple whose yacht sank were not insured | Mail Online


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## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> Perhaps the implication is that they had only taken up _SAILING_ 7 months before?


I took up sailing the day I bought our 48' yacht. 
Its not that hard If you have done boating previously, and have a pilot background. 
I have been sailing now for a year, Its great, and easy. Admittedly I still have to learn heaving to, but I will in the next 2 months.


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## smurphny

JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, I doubt many folks sailing from the Turks & Caicos to the Azores pass very close to Georges Bank...
> 
> The initial reports placed the area of the rescue as being roughly 900 miles NE of Bermuda...
> 
> They could have been in or close to the Stream in that area, though I'm a bit surprised they were that far north... Although, the latest story says they were headed to France instead of the Azores, so who knows?


That's why I wonder exactly where they were. If they got as far north as Georges or the Grand Banks and the seamounts, the conditions in force 8 winds could have been a lot different than in open ocean. Their position was not clear at all from the news piece. I thought it said they were heading *from* the Azores which would make it feasible that they were farther north?


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## MUSIC40

Hello interesting thread so I'm posting to keep track of it.

Sometimes I think about buying less boat ie money and addressing certain issues or week points?

I wonder if its like a performance car -- for a little more performance you spend a lot more money? I wonder if addressing specific issues and applying good technique can overcome?
Sometimes I'm to lazy to figure it out and just spend more money and hope for the best?


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## gershel

ntolst said:


> Actually USA is directly involved in helping boats in distress regardless of their registry, nationalities of the crew and destinations in neutral waters hundreds of miles off US shores. Some wealthy countries like Bermuda don't keep a single helicopter to coduct SAR operations and completely rely on the USCG. I lost my sailboat, Niagara 35', due to the storm and massive leak several years ago 100 miles NW of Bermuda and was rescued by Turkish freighter directed to our location by USCG.


Hi, I sent you a PM.
Marc


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