# Needed: Customs & Immigration 101



## David0214 (Jan 23, 2015)

If all goes according to plan, I will soon become a yacht owner and join the world-wide cruising community!

But as I read books and blogs and study the wealth of information out there on how to cruise on a sailboat, one particular topic causes much anxiety in me: customs & immigration (C&I). 

Here is the situation, as I understand it: Yachters are at the bottom of the priority list of bureaucrats who write C&I regulations. When foreign visitors arrive via other modes (airlines, passenger or cargo ships, highway checkpoints, etc), they can be herded like cattle thru the C&I formalities. Not so with smaller boats, which can potentially enter a country with an ocean-front border almost anywhere. And of course your typical sailing yacht only has a couple of persons aboard. 

We yachters are not trying to immigrate, commit acts of terror, or smuggle people or illegal contraband. We just want to come and visit your beautiful country! The worst thing we might do is spend money purchasing food and supplies from your native merchants! So, you can understand my befuddlement and concern, especially when I read horror stories of yachters who, despite their good-faith efforts to comply with C&I rules, are harassed or cough up big bucks at the hands of overzealous, inconsistent, petty, or rogue government officials. 

But, it is what it is, and the best we all can do is arm ourselves with knowledge. And so I have oodles of questions about how best to travel the world by boat with the minimum of C&I pain, and good information is hard to find and very scattered. I wish someone with good experience in this area would write a book, something along the lines of: "International Customs & Immigration 101 for Yachters." 

And that is why I am here at this forum today. I have some basic, preliminary questions that I have never seen asked. Now I understand that every country on the planet has its own C&I bureaucracy, regulations, and infrastructure, and there can often be vast inconsistency even within a single country. Still, some global generalization is feasible, and needed.

But for the purpose of this discussion, let us consider the Bahamas, a popular yachting destination, and a place that is definitely on MY bucket list:

•	Scenario #1: I sail to the Bahamas, drop anchor at some remote, uninhabited island, and come ashore. Do I need to check in with C&I? It's a serious question. Is there, like, a Bahamian Coast Guard or Border Patrol that patrols remote islands to verify C&I compliance? What is the worst case outcome?

•	Scenario #2: I sail to the Bahamas, and drop anchor at the largest city, Nassau, but fail to check in with C&I. Then I come ashore in my dinghy to buy groceries. Who is going to check my papers? If I only stay one day, who will know? 

•	Variation on Scenario #2: I don't come ashore. Am I still in C&I violation (because the harbor is considered part of The Bahamas, or something along those lines)? How would they know I'm there? Does someone watch every vessel entering & leaving that busy harbor? What if I just leave my Q flag flying? Even if the Bahamian Border Patrol pays me a visit, how can they prove that I've been there a week?

•	Scenario #3: I anchor just outside the Nassau harbor, and don't check in. (I may even come ashore in my dinghy to buy groceries.) How far out does the Bahamian Border guys patrol for C&I compliance?

•	Scenario #4: I heave-to just outside the harbor.

These are all questions I've never seen asked! Again, one could substitute in any location on the planet and get entirely different answers, but you see where I'm going with this. And it would be great to get a global country-by-country C&I comparison, to see where the best and worst places are to visit. 

Experienced cruisers, let's hear from you!


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Noonsite is a great resource. http://www.noonsite.com/

If you really want answers to questions of legality, check with a lawyer who specializes in the topic.


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## DHusk (Sep 17, 2013)

I'll venture to guess that most cruisers here will say that you are a visitor in their country and should play by their rules. Just as most people in the USA wish that visitors here would play by our rules.


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## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

Let me get this straight. Your premise is if you are on a yacht, you are not bad people and are unlikely to commit crimes. You would like to be on a yacht. And you would like help planning a series of crimes.

Is that the gist of your query?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

"How lucky do you feel?"...

Many of the countries in typical cruising areas have little/no patience with anyone who flaunts the rules - often especially the paperwork. Worst case could well be confiscation of the vessel and/or some confinement. Checking out can be as important as checking in, esp at the 'next place'...


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

Faster said:


> "How lucky do you feel?"....


I share Faster's comment. You want to roll the dice - lose your boat, go to jail, or at least have a huge hassle. Do it. IMHO there is no place worth the risk. Remember that as a foreigner in most countries you will have none of the rights and protections you have in the United States.

The only exception to the rule is "the right of innocent passage." See Innocent Passage Legal Definition

I have read, but can't find the reference, that one can actually anchor if necessary for the "safety of the ship and/or crew" - for example if bad weather is forecast - but one can never go on shore.

Also, in my travels I have been amazed at the ignorant Americans who believe that since they are not in the United States they can do drugs with impunity. Bad decision - if the C&I people decide to make an example of you your can kiss your A### goodbye for a good part of the rest of your life - not to mention your boat and all your possessions too. I have seen it happen to others.

Last thought - I have been in and out of dozens of ports where the C&I people filled out the paperwork, didn't inspect my vessel, and just collected the appropriate fees. I have also had my boat fairly deeply searched - every area tossed, every cabinet opened, etc. It is all in the luck of the draw.

Fair winds and following seas


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## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

If you plan to cruise out of the USA, best study up on the locations before hand. That is your responsibility. Ok, it's a bit of work, but cruising isn't all fun and games you know? You need to know where the Ports of Entry are, what the gun laws are (if you're packing), what the pet laws are if it applies to you. You will need a current passport, but in some cases will need a visa (depending on your nationality). Sorry, but if you don't educate yourself, you are asking for serious trouble. Same thing if you ignore the rules (checking in).

Don't go ashore and not check in! And if you are in the Bahamas, don't forget cash for the cruising permit.... 

Also, you will need to call and get a clearance number when arriving back in the US, and have 24 hours to present yourself to Homeland Security. Good luck if you don't.

Ralph


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

As this is a first post for someone its either one of the best polmacist posts or troll posts I have read 

If you are not a troll then just sit back, relax and get the chip off your shoulder!

Boats are not herded through like aircraft cattle because you are a vessel thats considerered to be very similar to a cargo ship or cruise liner. You carry your nations flag on its stern and theres a history hundreds of years old about how ships enter another country.

Do you know why theres a 3 mile limit of territorial waters? Because thats the range of a cannon in old sailing ship days.

You deal with history, soveringty, and that you are a ship that engenders respect.

If you could expect a cargo ship to enter the Bahamas like you suggest then you can do the same. But you have the same liabilities too... I.e your ship will be seized.

You sail into whats called a Port of Entry and you go see Customs, Immigration and the Harbor Master. You fill out paperwork in each office and you pay a fee in many offices. 

Its easy and everyone does it.

But if you prefer to have your boat siezed and youself thrown in jail then do it any way you please.

For the specifics of each country see Noonsite.com. If you prefer not to read Noonsite you will have a short and arduous cruising life. And none of us are likely to roll out of bed to help you.


Mark


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

David0214 said:


> Not so with smaller boats, which can potentially enter a country with an ocean-front border almost anywhere.


You must enter at a Port of Entry. As others have noted, see http://noonsite.com .



David0214 said:


> So, you can understand my befuddlement and concern, especially when I read horror stories of yachters who, despite their good-faith efforts to comply with C&I rules, are harassed or cough up big bucks at the hands of overzealous, inconsistent, petty, or rogue government officials.


There is the odd systemic problem but generally people run into trouble because they either don't follow the rules or because they display an arrogant or other unfortunate attitude.



David0214 said:


> But for the purpose of this discussion, let us consider the Bahamas, a popular yachting destination, and a place that is definitely on MY bucket list:
> 
> •	Scenario #1: I sail to the Bahamas, drop anchor at some remote, uninhabited island, and come ashore. Do I need to check in with C&I? It's a serious question. Is there, like, a Bahamian Coast Guard or Border Patrol that patrols remote islands to verify C&I compliance? What is the worst case outcome?


You need to go to a Port of Entry first and directly. Worst case you will be jailed and your boat confiscated. There will be fines.



David0214 said:


> •	Scenario #2: I sail to the Bahamas, and drop anchor at the largest city, Nassau, but fail to check in with C&I. Then I come ashore in my dinghy to buy groceries. Who is going to check my papers? If I only stay one day, who will know?


As soon as your anchor touches the bottom within territorial waters you have entered the country and are responsible for clearing in. See worst case above.



David0214 said:


> •	Variation on Scenario #2: I don't come ashore. Am I still in C&I violation (because the harbor is considered part of The Bahamas, or something along those lines)? How would they know I'm there? Does someone watch every vessel entering & leaving that busy harbor? What if I just leave my Q flag flying? Even if the Bahamian Border Patrol pays me a visit, how can they prove that I've been there a week?


See above - you are in the country when you anchor in territorial waters.



David0214 said:


> •	Scenario #3: I anchor just outside the Nassau harbor, and don't check in. (I may even come ashore in my dinghy to buy groceries.) How far out does the Bahamian Border guys patrol for C&I compliance?


Ignoring the fact that the water is pretty deep outside the Nassau harbor, see above. RBDF patrol all over the place - out on the banks, Tongue of the Ocean, in and around the islands.



David0214 said:


> •	Scenario #4: I heave-to just outside the harbor.


You can probably (not definitely, but probably) get away with this on the basis of innocent passage, but why? Fix something? You won't get much rest making sure no one hits you and you don't blow ashore.

Incidentally, innocent passage is not a panacea. It doesn't apply to inshore waters (like bays and harbors) and it isn't unusual to be stopped and searched especially in an archipelago like the Bahamas.



David0214 said:


> These are all questions I've never seen asked! Again, one could substitute in any location on the planet and get entirely different answers, but you see where I'm going with this. And it would be great to get a global country-by-country C&I comparison, to see where the best and worst places are to visit.


Your questions or reasonable facsimiles have been asked and answered dozens if not hundreds of times. There is general information that applies on the US Department of State website. There is good information on Noonsite. There is good detailed information (albeit with the occasional out of date phone number) on government websites, including that of the Bahamas.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

we have sailed into probably 25 different countries over the past 8 years. unless you want major and i mean major problems you check into each and every country at the first port of entry you come to and do not stop along the way for a day or two. 

for example one boat headed from montenegro to croatia, a short distance, decided to stop and eat lunch and take a quick swim before going on to the port of entry a few miles farther on. the coast guard came by and asked to see their paperwork. with none they got a huge fine and an escort to the port of entry for more grief as the customs guys boarded and tore the boat apart looking for illegal stuff that they did not find. 

in belize one couple arrived after hours so thought what the heck and went ashore to eat and drink. they knew better. the boat was seen by the police along with the folks ashore and the next day when they went in to check in they got a huge fine. they knew the rules and chose to ignore them. 

do not fool around with customs and immigration as when you get caught and you will get caught the consequences can be terrible.


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

I would like to give some information for Aegean. Threre are a lot of island and are in the Greek territory. On the other hand, Eastern mainland is Turkey. A lot of sailors visit the nearby Greek islands without any legal papers and without checking in. This might be a nights stay during the travel or intentional travel to the island for entartainment. Generally no body is checking or if somebody comes to check, they will ask you to visit their office with your papers (which you do not have). I know staying in one of the islands for more than 3 days in the same location and when they asked for checking in I always answered: "The captain has all the papers and he is on his way to the office." If they insist on your papers and you do not have them, generally they will ask you to leave immediately which means less than 24 hours. Some Greek boats are coming to the Turkish side without any papers and even visit the cities nearby and no cares. If caught you will be asked to leave. This might be special to the Aegean because some Greek islands are inside the coves of the mainland. YOu can be sure to pass from the channel north of Simi Island if you are travelling from Knidos to Marmaris. I am sure this is not what the "Innocent passage" rules define but nobody is going to check that channel for passages. 

This might be due to the special location of the islands and the main land in Aegean sea.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

DHusk said:


> I'll venture to guess that most cruisers here will say that you are a visitor in their country and should play by their rules. Just as most people in the USA wish that visitors here would play by our rules.


People living in the USA, often get the idea that every country gives a wagging finger and stern lecture to illegal aliens because that's the way the US handles it. I've traveled all over the world, and most countries are very strict about their immigration laws.

My brother had a Bahamian who worked on his place in Florida, who had been in the US illegally for 20 years (and he frequently went home to visit). Try going to the Bahamas and see what happens. He never had a problem until he went and filled out a request for a Visa, and then his problems started, (and last I heard, his case has been dragging on for two years now).

Try living in the Bahamas, for twenty years, without clearing immigration and see what happens. Our immigration laws are a joke. Not so much so in other countries.


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

Faster said:


> "How lucky do you feel?"...
> 
> Many of the countries in typical cruising areas have little/no patience with anyone who flaunts the rules - often especially the paperwork. Worst case could well be confiscation of the vessel and/or some confinement. Checking out can be as important as checking in, esp at the 'next place'...


"flouts the rules" -- Sorry, nitpicking, but it's one of my flaws...

In principle, I agree totally, though. The ways in which Customs agents and their associated coast guards can make you life utterly miserable with absolutely zero recourse on your part means that "demonstrable best effort" on the cruiser's part is pretty much expected. If you know where you're going when you start, collect printouts of all the forms you'll need (or even might need) beforehand. Heading to Turks and Caico from Miami? Might as well have paperwork for Bahamas, Haiti and the DR just in case. Have passport. Have courtesy flag(s) already purchased. Stay 12 miles from any shore that you don't want to check in to. If you do want to check in, head for a largish port, hoist your Q flag, and (if you don't already know) hail the port on your VHF, tell them where you are and that you're inbound, and ask where to tie up and whom to report to. They may come out to meet you. You may be directed to a special dock. You may end up just tying up at a transient dock and be told that the captains must go to an address the following morning. Bring everybody's passports, your credit card, your ATM card that works internationally, and your own pen. Do not grumble over the cost of the cruising permit and/or entry card (EG Bahamas is BSD150 for 34ft and under, BSD300 for larger (where 1 BSD = 1 USD), plus BSD20 per person. Don't like it, don't go there). When cleared, Go straight back to your boat, replace the Q flag with the courtesy, hand out the inbound cards as appropriate, and head off to wherever you're actually staying. Don't forget to check out again when leaving, which in Bahamas means filling out another customs form and turning in the immigration cards you handed out to the crew when you checked in.

Edit to add: Oh, and if you can, get destination's local currency sufficient to cover the fees before departing for your destination. You'll look even more like you're at least making an attempt to not be a huge bother to the officials, which will make them a lot more cheerful about getting you processed and on your way.


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

David0214 said:


> We yachters are not trying to immigrate, commit acts of terror, or smuggle people or illegal contraband. We just want to come and visit your beautiful country! The worst thing we might do is spend money purchasing food and supplies from your native merchants!


Nope. The worst you might do is be coming there to kidnap citizens and sell them into a life of sexual slavery, murdering all who get in your way. The way to convince people that that isn't what you're up to is to comply with their rules, and be open and above-board in all your dealing with those entrusted with the care and safeguarding of their own citizenry.



> So, you can understand my befuddlement and concern, especially when I read horror stories of yachters who, despite their good-faith efforts to comply with C&I rules, are harassed or cough up big bucks at the hands of overzealous, inconsistent, petty, or rogue government officials.


There are probably bad government officials out there. But the fastest way to make one turn that way is to presume that that's the case and try to evade them. And most of those horror stories I've heard usually have an element of "Wait, just WHY did your crewmate dive down into the cabin as soon as you were told to heave to for boarding? Why the sudden urgency? To go get a sandwich? Really? Why was he in the forward cabin when the coastie handcuffed him? Is that where the sandwiches are normally kept?" around them...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

hellsop said:


> "flouts the rules" -- Sorry, nitpicking, but it's one of my flaws...


You're right, of course.. Thanks!

.. seems we may have chased the OP away!?


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## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

hellsop-"plus BSD20 per person."

No exit fee of $20.00 if 3 or fewer on board. Just nit picking....

Ralph


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I guess the real issue is do you like jail? I don't think there jails are quite as nice as ours either. If you are going to visit another country it is best to obey there laws, it is just a matter of respect.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

celenoglu said:


> Simi Island if you are travelling from Knidos to Marmaris. I am sure this is not what the "Innocent passage" rules define but nobody is going to check that channel for passages.
> .


"innocent passage" is a nice thought and may be a courtesy but it is not a "rule"


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

boatpoker said:


> "innocent passage" is a nice thought and may be a courtesy but it is not a "rule"


Actually it is not a law nor a rule. Since there is no real thing as "international law" but rather "treaties" and "agreements" it can't be a law. However, 168 countries plus the European Union are signatories of the UNCLOS. The UNCLOS (United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea) makes it more than a "rule" for the signatory countries.

More on the UNCLOS with more links here: 




The United States is not one of the 168 signatories. More on that here:
United States non-ratification of the UNCLOS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fair winds and following seas


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Yes, I am aware of UNCLOS and that like all other UN agreements is most often ignored by the signatories as it carries no legal weight anywhere in the world.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

You have gotten good advice. Find out the rules (every country is different) and do your best to follow them. The alternatives are not worth it. Some countries have complex rules and can be expensive and at times annoying. We wanted to sail to China but it was just too expensive and difficult to arrange. if you don't like the rules a country has, just don't go to that country.


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## David0214 (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks to all of the sailors who have commented on this weighty topic! (Although I am disappointed that nobody with good C&I experience said they were inspired to write a book on it!)

Many of you mentioned Noonsite.com, and so upon that recommendation, I spent several hours perusing the vast wealth of information therein. Here are some interesting things I learned there:

There are places with very tiny populations in very remote areas that have an awful lot of C&I bureaucracy. Many of the South Pacific island nations fall into that category. And even Antarctica. Yes, Antarctica! You must jump through some hoops if you want to sail there. (Not that it's on my list of prime destinations, regardless.)

Among the various countries around the world, there is vast diversity regarding how they welcome visitors by boat. At one end of the spectrum, it seems the Caribbean nations, as a general rule, "get it" that tourism is an economic blessing, and so make a good effort at minimizing C&I bureaucracy. At the other extreme, there are countries like China, Russia, and Saudi Arabia, who basically say to yachters: don't even THINK of coming here!

There are some C&I laws out there that just don't seem to make sense (to me, at least). For example: 
•	List your last four ports of call. (What on earth do they do with that data?) 
•	The captain must display a Certificate of Competence. (Where the heck does one obtain that?)
•	Some countries assume that every ocean-going vessel has global 24/7 Internet access, or that every circumnavigating captain knows EXACTLY where he's going and when he will arrive. (Jeez Louise!)

Anyway, the prevailing wisdom among everyone appears unanimous: That it is up to us captains to do our homework, know the rules, and respect them in the places we visit. And the consequences of not following them can be harsh.

Ok, I get that. 

But in the interest of understanding how the "real world" works, I find it befuddling how some nations with very sparse populations and vast coastline, especially in some very remote areas, can possibly enforce these rules effectively. If a sailor is, say, crossing the Atlantic and stops at some uninhabited Bahamian Island for some R&R, and then moves on, who will know?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

David0214 said:


> ........If a sailor is, say, crossing the Atlantic and stops at some uninhabited Bahamian Island for some R&R, and then moves on, who will know?


As I said before.... 'Do ya feel lucky??' You might get away with it, but if you don't......


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Hey David,

It would be much easier for you just to stay at home. I think it would suit you better.


Mark


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Most places ask for the clearance form your last country as you clear in. They know how long on average a yacht of your size takes to make that passage so if you have had an extra week relaxing somewhere expect a serious grilling. 

The French islands in the Carib are fairly relaxed about checking in. A computer in a beach front bar with the barman stamping the printout suffices. But the coasties tour the anchorages checking boat names against printouts. Woe betide you if caught, boat seized and padlocked to a jetty, large fine and the skipper gets deported.

Mess around with Antigua and the best you can expect is a loooooooong wait to see a senior officer at a verrrrry inconvenient location plus a fine. One charter skipper got caught allowing the guests ashore before formalities were completed, fined $10,000EC. Cruising skippers doing the same thing $5,000EC.

But the USA takes the biscuit. Expensive visas that are hard to get. Offices in inconvenient locations, requirements to register with the authorities when you move and worst of all officials who don't know the rules and regulations. Just try reporting a movement at a weekend in Virginia.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

OP your questions will be answered once you get out cruising...really even NOONSITE lacks up to date bureacracy tips for certain places...

you get info from those going where you just came from and you go to the places they just came from

the info is on nets(again out there) noonsite and the like and blogs...having said that I take local info above ALL those

its also good to know a local and or speak the language of those places you visit...

we learned that a smile goes the longest way in getting checked in anywhere...even those places that are so called beaurocratic...

fwiw we commonly anchored at unhinhabited islands, reefs or anchorages before officially checking in many countries around the world

in many cases you get stopped by a patrol or local navy you show them you are enroute(to an official port of entry) and have some cookies to snack on or offer them some licor and bobs your uncle...

cigarrettes work too

seriously finding out what countries to visit and or not before even getting out there is the best way to go nowhere...

now some places are impossible to get to but hey there are many others out there

just sayin

cheers


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## David0214 (Jan 23, 2015)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Hey David,
> 
> It would be much easier for you just to stay at home. I think it would suit you better.
> 
> Mark


Hey Mark,

Relax. I don't plan on actually doing that (stopping at an uninhabited island on mid-ocean passage without checking in).

But I wonder if anyone else has?


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## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

David - 

True story. I was sailing with i2f (an old member here). We were heading to Panama from Miami. We were sailing the Old Bahama Channel, and decided to head over to Nurse Cay in the Jumentos, and take a little break. We anchored, had a little swim in the beautiful water, showered, and ate. We flew the Q flag, even though there is nothing around the area, except small islands and reefs. We were gone in four hours, heading to the Windward Passage. I'm not sure if we were illegal, doing what we did. We never put the dink in the water, nor went ashore.

Later on, once through the Windward Passage heading to Panama, the winds switched. We eventually figured out Panama would have to wait, and headed to Cartagena, Colombia. John (i2f) didn't know much about check in at Cartagena, nor their other rules and laws. And there was no way to get internet in the middle of the Caribbean. Not one to risk his boat, his crew, and himself, went below and brought out a wooden box. In that box was 2 guns, a .357 and a small gun. He had a little discussing with me about what these two guns meant to him (the sentimental value). Well, he picked one up and gave it his best throw. Then again with the second. I wonder how many guns lay on the floor of the Caribbean? My point is...any sailor with any sense is going to do anything to keep his boat, as well as keep himself and those he cares about, out of some nasty prison. 

I will always remember the splash of those guns hitting the surface of the Caribbean, wondering.....damn, don't they have some serious drug runners here? Now, we have no way to defend ourselves. Obviously, I'm still around to tell the story, so it worked out just fine. The moral of the story is that ignorance is no excuse, and could result in some risky business. One that no knowledgeable skipper is willing to take a chance with. Good luck if you get your boat some day. Everyday is a new adventure.

Ralph


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## sugarbird (Dec 23, 2013)

Ah grasshopper, you make your choices, and accept the consequences. The world is full of people not following the law...here in the Caribbean people run drugs, money and people all the time. The C&I laws have tightened up considerably over the past 20 years, and there are more capable patrol vessels and aircraft out there. Most of the folks manning them are decent, hard working people who are just trying to put their years in and take a pension, but some are bent. What's your motivation for not wanting to follow the rules? 

The worst roustings I ever experienced took place in the US, but have been "pulled over" in half a dozen countries. If/when it happens, having all your paperwork in order demonstrates your knowledge and intention to do things the right way. The thing that pisses the local C&I guys off the most is foreigners (perhaps especially Americans) acting indignant when busted for violations (no check in, no papers, guns, dope, anchoring in restricted places), and then huffing and puffing about their rights, "I want to call the embassy," yadda, yadda. 

Bottom line, lotsa people break the rules...some in very bad ways. Is this the group you want the uniforms to lump you with? Your call, but if you wanna do the crime, be prepared to do the time amigo!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I wont even go there...that is one of the worst things you can do...and its done ALL the time...

its very very sad to see(the whole indignant Im going to call the embassy etc attitude) 

anywhoo


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

David0214 said:


> There are places with very tiny populations in very remote areas that have an awful lot of C&I bureaucracy. Many of the South Pacific island nations fall into that category.


A lot depends on your nationality. The bureaucracy in the South Pacific is rough on Americans because the US is tough on French Polynesians. Quid pro quo.



David0214 said:


> it seems the Caribbean nations, as a general rule, "get it" that tourism is an economic blessing, and so make a good effort at minimizing C&I bureaucracy.


Cruisers generally overestimate their contribution to the local economies.



David0214 said:


> There are some C&I laws out there that just don't seem to make sense (to me, at least). For example:
> •	List your last four ports of call. (What on earth do they do with that data?)


Very likely they are interested in possible agricultural or medical contagion, including bottom growth.



David0214 said:


> •	The captain must display a Certificate of Competence. (Where the heck does one obtain that?)


Google for International Certificate of Competence or ICC.



David0214 said:


> •	Some countries assume that every ocean-going vessel has global 24/7 Internet access, or that every circumnavigating captain knows EXACTLY where he's going and when he will arrive. (Jeez Louise!)


Nope. Do your research before you leave port, including for possible bail-outs. Plan ahead. You don't need 24/7 Internet access to have long-range communications. At least carry a sat-phone, and much preferably an SSB radio.



David0214 said:


> If a sailor is, say, crossing the Atlantic and stops at some uninhabited Bahamian Island for some R&R, and then moves on, who will know?


Well in the first place if you are crossing the Atlantic you are barely getting started when you get to the Bahamas. Why stop?

Setting that aside, the local walking down the beach who just paid their taxes, or is irritated by the VAT on a new refrigerator, is likely to look at a boat as a possible source of revenue to his country, and maybe a finders fee. Someone that paid their $300 might find a boat "flying under the radar" offensive.



TQA said:


> But the USA takes the biscuit. Expensive visas that are hard to get. Offices in inconvenient locations, requirements to register with the authorities when you move and worst of all officials who don't know the rules and regulations. Just try reporting a movement at a weekend in Virginia.


Generally true. The US is one of the least welcoming cruising grounds for non-US citizens. That said, entering the US *outside* of FL for US citizens and not is much more pleasant than *inside* FL.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

David0214 said:


> But in the interest of understanding how the "real world" works, I find it befuddling how some nations with very sparse populations and vast coastline, especially in some very remote areas, can possibly enforce these rules effectively. If a sailor is, say, crossing the Atlantic and stops at some uninhabited Bahamian Island for some R&R, and then moves on, who will know?


The first word in the above paragraph suggests you have a future of intimacy with many CI bureaucrats ahead of you.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

David0214 said:


> Thanks to all of the sailors who have commented on this weighty topic! (Although I am disappointed that nobody with good C&I experience said they were inspired to write a book on it!)
> A book is impossible since the rules change frequently. Also the rules are enforced differently at different ports of entry. The US is ridiculous for this one. The rules for foreign boats are enforced differently on the north and south shores of Long Island Sound. Noonsite is about the best possible resource since it should have data that is up to date.
> 
> There are places with very tiny populations in very remote areas that have an awful lot of C&I bureaucracy. Many of the South Pacific island nations fall into that category. And even Antarctica. Yes, Antarctica! You must jump through some hoops if you want to sail there. (Not that it's on my list of prime destinations, regardless.)
> ...


You say that you get it, put prove that you don't by asking the same question. 

There is a difference between the rules that exist in a country and the ability of the country to enforce those rules. If you don't think you will get caught don't worry about breaking the laws of the country. What is the worst that can happen?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Fundamentally, the only reason anyone attempts to skip immigration is either the cost or inconvenience. If one is cruising for any length of time, inconvenience isn't much of an excuse. You have to land somewhere.

If you find yourself questioning how to get around paying the fees, you're really asking how to steal and whether you can get away with it. Some do. Most don't admire people that steal.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

David0214 said:


> Among the various countries around the world, there is vast diversity regarding how they welcome visitors by boat. At one end of the spectrum, it seems the Caribbean nations, as a general rule, "get it" that tourism is an economic blessing, and so make a good effort at minimizing C&I bureaucracy. At the other extreme, there are countries like China, Russia, and Saudi Arabia, who basically say to yachters: don't even THINK of coming here!
> 
> There are some C&I laws out there that just don't seem to make sense (to me, at least). For example:
> •	List your last four ports of call. (What on earth do they do with that data?)
> ...


i am not sure if you are serious or been reading too many glossy mags and not sure if you have a boat. if you do not have one yet think twice before you get one. but for others i will respond a bit.

in the caribbean we ran into everything from the french islands where you type in your info into a computer in a bar, store or chandlery and get a stamp for a few euros. then we have spent hours filling out multiple forms, some where we had to use carbon paper (didn't know they even made it any more) to visiting multiple desks or offices and some where we have had inspectors come on board to do inspections. the carib is not simply and at times you can not do it yourself you have to use an agent.

as for russia it takes a visa and we will find out if we can get one as we plan to sail the black sea in 2016 and somewhere we will see about saudi when we head to the red sea.

the requirements we have run across as to ports have generally been the last but not always but even where one is requested we have verbally been aske for our last several. in our last check out of the eu the police wanted to know how a usa boat got there. you may laugh at that but you don't joke and take it as serious as they did. we talked for 15 minutes then they showed us to a seperate room and told us to sit, took the paasports and came back about an hour later with stamped passports. just part of dealing with c&i.

in europe you need a license to sail or cert of competence. we were asked each time we checked in and said we do not have a license but we think they let us pass as they figured if we could sail across the atlantic we knew what we were doing. except montenegro who told us we had to leave and leave their country now. i asked if asa sailing cert would work and showed the our book with the stamps and they accepted that. the same is true for croatia.

no idea where you got the 24/7 comm but we have never seen that. but if you do not have it i seriously question your sailing. how are you going to get weather or if you have an emergency? we have ssb.

as for stopping in the bahamas, you need to take a look at a map. bahamas are a day sail from miami. if sailors leave from the usa east coast they may stop in bermuda and you do have to check in as they know you are there. we left from antigua and were 500nm east of bermuda when we went past it.

i read your postings to my admiral and she said you should probably stay tied to the dock or get a change in attitude as one of the last things we need out here is an american boat giving c&i officals a bad time as it may have consequencies for the rest of us.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Fundamentally, the only reason anyone attempts to skip immigration is either the cost or inconvenience. If one is cruising for any length of time, inconvenience isn't much of an excuse. You have to land somewhere.
> 
> If you find yourself questioning how to get around paying the fees, you're really asking how to steal and whether you can get away with it. Some do. Most don't admire people that steal.


Or they know they won't be let in legally. It is amazing in this age of internet connectivity how they can find your history. I had a friend (no it was not me) that went to Canada for training for work, and they would not let him across the border because he had a DUI from over 9 years ago. Funny thing was if it had been a few months later he would have been OK. Sucked for him too, because he was riding up with someone else. So he had to take a bus back home.


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## David0214 (Jan 23, 2015)

chuck5499 said:


> i am not sure if you are serious or been reading too many glossy mags and not sure if you have a boat.


Chuck,

Well I don't have a boat - at least not yet. And after I buy my boat, where will I go? I might just sail up and down the U.S. east coast. There's enough to see and do there to keep a sailor's attention for years, and I don't have to mess with foreign C&I !

On the other hand, I might strike out and explore other places out over the water. But before I make that decision, I need to know exactly what I'm getting myself into. I've never sailed across a national border, and I want to be very prepared. What can I expect from foreign C&I? That is why I'm asking questions - LOTS of questions. I'm not trying to bend the rules; I just want to understand how things work. (There are evidently a number of sailors out there who failed to do this, and then the first time they met with C&I officials ... yikes!)

Fortunately, this forum has been very helpful. Several experienced captains have replied to my questions with oodles of good advice, and I appreciate it!

Also, it appears I've collected a handful of interesting anecdotes from various captains and their C&I experiences. I might put together a compilation. I might ever start up a new forum thread just for that ...

Oh and by the way, the parable about stopping in the Bahamas - I'm talking about a westbound trip across the Atlantic, ya know, like Columbus.


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## David0214 (Jan 23, 2015)

Several posts have mentioned an "agent". Noonsite.com has a few blurbs about it, too.

What exactly is an "agent"? How do I know if I need one? How much do they cost, and where do you find one? 

(This is the kind of information someone with lots of C&I knowledge needs to include in that book they're going to write!)


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## Mr. Bubs (Aug 21, 2013)

David0214 said:


> ...oodles...


Grown men don't say "oodles".


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

David0214 said:


> Chuck,
> 
> Well I don't have a boat


Riiiigggghhhht.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

David0214 said:


> Several posts have mentioned an "agent". Noonsite.com has a few blurbs about it, too.
> 
> What exactly is an "agent"? How do I know if I need one? How much do they cost, and where do you find one?
> 
> (This is the kind of information someone with lots of C&I knowledge needs to include in that book they're going to write!)


check noonsite as they are pretty good on where an agent is required. in the carib we checked with other folks on checking in at various countries via the ssb nets and even got recommendations on what agent to use.

in all cases where we have needed an agent we made arrangements before we left the last port via email just telling the agent or rep that we are leaving and should arrive about and do not wait on an answer. we have always been met at the docks by an agent even if we did not let them know we were coming.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The Bahamas $300 fee is considered steep by most. However, if you think about it, where can you rent a campsite for a year for $300? Isn't that essentially what we're doing?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

David0214 said:


> Several posts have mentioned an "agent". Noonsite.com has a few blurbs about it, too.
> 
> What exactly is an "agent"? How do I know if I need one? How much do they cost, and where do you find one?


Wikipedia says "An agent is one who acts for, or in the place of, another, by authority from him; one entrusted with the business of another." This is exactly who an agent is with respect to C&I. You pay someone to act on your behalf interacting with officials. A good one can save you a lot of time and sometimes some money, more than their fees.

The agents know all the players and can often get through the process a lot faster than you can. It can be a little distressing to see your boat papers and passports disappear up the street in Guatemala but it is easier than trying to find your way from one office to another, to the bank, to another office, to the post office, and back around. On the other hand what else do you have to do? *grin* In some places working through an agent is the only way to get access to duty-free items like fuel and even food and/or to avoid having to post large visa bonds that carry currency conversion fees.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Not too many places where you need an agent. Indonesia comes to mind where you need an agent or go with a rally and they handle the paperwork. Galapagos and Ecuador (same country but they operate independently) also require agents. I think by the time you get a boat and learn how to sail to these places, everything will have changed so no point worrying about it now.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

killarney_sailor said:


> Not too many places where you need an agent. Indonesia comes to mind where you need an agent or go with a rally and they handle the paperwork. Galapagos and Ecuador (same country but they operate independently) also require agents. I think by the time you get a boat and learn how to sail to these places, everything will have changed so no point worrying about it now.


an agent is required in cartagena, colombia and in albania. it is wise but not required to use one in mexico and guatemala.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

killarney_sailor said:


> Not too many places where you need an agent. Indonesia comes to mind where you need an agent or go with a rally and they handle the paperwork. Galapagos and Ecuador (same country but they operate independently) also require agents. I think by the time you get a boat and learn how to sail to these places, everything will have changed so no point worrying about it now.


I agree that there are few places where you _need_ an agent. There are places like the South Pacific where they are helpful, especially with bonds and duty-free. A lot of people appreciate the support of an agent going through the Panama Canal. It all depends. I personally prefer doing it myself as long as time is not pressing.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

But things will likely have changed substantially before the OP is ready to visit any of these places. In any case, whether or not you need an agent is far from the top of the priority list for someone looking to buy their first boat.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

killarney_sailor said:


> But things will likely have changed substantially before the OP is ready to visit any of these places. In any case, whether or not you need an agent is far from the top of the priority list for someone looking to buy their first boat.


I absolutely agree with both points.

However, it did warm my heart to read the many negative responses to someone whose plan is to attempt to illegally enter a country and potentially give another black mark against cruisers who do the right thing and try to leave a clean wake. This, along with the agent information will probably be beneficial to those who are further along in their cruising plans.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

David 

I use an agent in Venezuela, Columbia, Panama, and Guatemala. 

Why, well in the end it is cheaper. Also I am less likely to be hit with some unusual interpretation of the rules or some rarely invoked requirement. EG the famous Porlamar potty inspection by the medical officer. 

Mexico is the current country to watch with the rules being applied differently depending on which port you enter. Get it wrong and they seize your boat.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

killarney_sailor said:


> But things will likely have changed substantially before the OP is ready to visit any of these places. In any case, whether or not you need an agent is far from the top of the priority list for someone looking to buy their first boat.


Maybe. We don't know the OP. I've seen folks go from zero to cruising in a startlingly short period of time leaving a trail of upset and disappointment in their wake. I try not to make assumptions.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> The Bahamas $300 fee is considered steep by most. However, if you think about it, where can you rent a campsite for a year for $300? Isn't that essentially what we're doing?


I think for most people it is just that it used to be free. Some cruising sailors seem to think they are the only force keeping some of the economies going, yet complain about paying $5 for a beer. Then they order all there boat parts from abroad. There are a lot of expenses involved with tracking cruising boats, $300 worth I doubt it, but they came up with a number. So I think it is all about perspective. Kind of like the documentation fee that is now required, seems to be extravagant by some, others seem to think they are just paying for the paperwork.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I wanted to stop in at the Bahamas for an hour to refuel. The $300 made that rediculous.

For folks spending 6 months on volly ball beach $300 is fine.


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## David0214 (Jan 23, 2015)

The unanimous consensus among participants in this forum is that international C&I laws must be followed, period. If one feels that C&I rules are too onerous, then adjust your itinerary. Rest assured that I have no plans to attempt to cheat the rules.

HOWEVER ...

I can envision scenarios where following The Letter Of The Law might be questioned. An obvious example is a genuine on-board emergency. In this case, do you:
a) follow the law anyway
b) attempt to contact authorities, explain the situation, and request an exception
c) skirt the law, cross your fingers, focus on the emergency at-hand, and if you do get caught, throw yourself at their mercy and beg forgiveness

Now obviously the world is a very big place, and one should not try to over-generalize. The best course of action depends on where you are, the nature of the emergency, yada, yada. But the point here is that KNOWLEDGE is your best weapon, and the prudent skipper needs to know the odds of a positive outcome for each of the alternatives.

But now let's consider a scenario that is less dramatic than, say, a dismasting, or appendicitis. Suppose it's just crew fatigue? You have a 2-person crew, you've been battling horrid conditions, neither of you has had any sleep in days, and if you DON'T get rest soon there WILL be a genuine emergency, we're too close to the lee shore to heave-to, and oh look, here's a secluded place we can drop the hook and rest - but we haven't checked in yet, and the nearest port of entry is still a day's sail away! It comes down to a question of good seamanship versus blind adherence to the law. Once again, knowing the odds is better before you roll the dice.

Experienced skippers, what say you?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I believe there are some international laws that pertain to a vessel taking emergency refuge. My vague recollection is that you get some leeway in where you take refuge, but not whether you must eventually clear in and pay their fees. I don't think you can drop the hook, make repair and leave. 

Dismasting would qualify, but I highly doubt that crew fatigue would or everyone with seasickness would get a pass.


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## Mr. Bubs (Aug 21, 2013)

David0214 said:


> The *unanimous* consensus among participants in this forum is that *international C&I laws must be followed, period*...
> 
> ...Experienced skippers, what say you?


You are amongst experienced skippers, and they have already spoken. Also, you just answered your own question.

Quit trolling.


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## Rezz (Oct 12, 2012)

David0214 said:


> The unanimous consensus among participants in this forum is that international C&I laws must be followed, period. If one feels that C&I rules are too onerous, then adjust your itinerary. Rest assured that I have no plans to attempt to cheat the rules.
> 
> HOWEVER ...
> 
> *snip*


How bout we just say "it depends"? Feel free to roll the dice. And be sure to post up here what happens. I'm sure we'd all like to know.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Well, there's a part of me that thinks you really are beating a dead horse here, but I'll bite anyway...



David0214 said:


> An obvious example is a genuine on-board emergency.


This is simple. An emergency is an emergency. You do what you have to do. Most of the time the authorities are going to be extremely understanding in the case of a true emergency. If they are not, so what? It's an emergency. What else can you do?



David0214 said:


> You have a 2-person crew, you've been battling horrid conditions, neither of you has had any sleep in days, and if you DON'T get rest soon there WILL be a genuine emergency, we're too close to the lee shore to heave-to, and oh look, here's a secluded place we can drop the hook and rest - but we haven't checked in yet, and *the nearest port of entry is still a day's sail away!*


The bolded part answers it for you. In every country that I am aware of, the law is that you must check in as soon as possible, at the nearest point possible. Well, the nearest point possible is a day's sail away. So as soon as possible, you will go and check in at the nearest point possible. This, too, is really pretty simple.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

David0214 said:


> The unanimous consensus among participants in this forum is that international C&I laws must be followed, period. If one feels that C&I rules are too onerous, then adjust your itinerary. Rest assured that I have no plans to attempt to cheat the rules.
> 
> HOWEVER ...


I can't speak for others here, but for my part I am coming to the conclusion that you are looking for some specific answer without regard to reality.



David0214 said:


> I can envision scenarios where following The Letter Of The Law might be questioned. An obvious example is a genuine on-board emergency. In this case, do you:
> a) follow the law anyway
> b) attempt to contact authorities, explain the situation, and request an exception
> c) skirt the law, cross your fingers, focus on the emergency at-hand, and if you do get caught, throw yourself at their mercy and beg forgiveness


Almost always (a) with a smidgen of (b) and no (c) at all.

So let's look at your scenario.



David0214 said:


> You have a 2-person crew, you've been battling horrid conditions, neither of you has had any sleep in days, and if you DON'T get rest soon there WILL be a genuine emergency, we're too close to the lee shore to heave-to, and oh look, here's a secluded place we can drop the hook and rest - but we haven't checked in yet, and the nearest port of entry is still a day's sail away! It comes down to a question of good seamanship versus blind adherence to the law. Once again, knowing the odds is better before you roll the dice.


This is easy. First, insufficient crew is your responsibility and not that of the country, a sovereign nation, that you are visiting. Let's not lose sight of the fact that you have been talking about the Bahamas from the US East Coast which is only a half-day away. Fine, set that aside.

Most although not all countries have some mechanism for contact by radio, VHF or HF. They all have phone numbers accessible by cell phone or sat phone. YOU have put yourself in an awkward position so you contact the authorities and explain your position and your plan. You fly a Q flag. You get your rest. You do NOT go ashore. You do NOT trade with anyone. You do NOT do anything not explicitly authorized by the authorities. You proceed directly as promised to the port of entry and pay your fees (that's the part I suspect you are trying to get out of, isn't it?).

I've been in those sorts of situations. I've actually gotten permission to go ashore, to take a slip, to get showers, even to start laundry. I have been effusive in appreciation when I checked in. DON'T MESS UP MY WAKE BY TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE KINDNESS OF OFFICIALS.

By the way this question has also been asked and answered, consistently, many times. You really need to do more reading. You'll see you'll have to give up on what appears to be a desire to "get away with something."

If I have misinterpreted the motivation of your questions I apologize. If I have that is an indication that you really have not done your research before asking others to hold your hand.


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## David0214 (Jan 23, 2015)

denverd0n said:


> In every country that I am aware of, the law is that you must check in as soon as possible, at the nearest point possible. Well, the nearest point possible is a day's sail away. So as soon as possible, you will go and check in at the nearest point possible.


Denver,

That's not the question. Yes we are all in 100% agreement on what the rules say.

The question is: What would you do? And do you other skippers who have been in that situation? What would/did they do?


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

SVAuspicious said:


> ...
> I've been in those sorts of situations. I've actually gotten permission to go ashore, to take a slip, to get showers, even to start laundry. I have been effusive in appreciation when I checked in. DON'T MESS UP MY WAKE BY TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE KINDNESS OF OFFICIALS.
> ...


The key here is that after the emergency was over...you checked in. I hope the OP understands that.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

David0214 said:


> Denver,
> 
> That's not the question. Yes we are all in 100% agreement on what the rules say......


Right and that's what people follow. Please stop asking the same question.


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## Mr. Bubs (Aug 21, 2013)

This is like researching a product online that has 99 bad reviews and one good one, so you buy it based on the one good review, only to find out that it's junk.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)




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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> Right and that's what people follow. Please stop asking the same question.


People DO NOT follow the rules. The rules are set up so everyone breaks them every day. This is used in conjunction with intimidation and fear to control the masses.

Perhaps he needs to know which rules are important. As examples:

1. Littering is illegal. Virtually every smoker I know throws their butts on the ground. I have yet to see someone fined or jailed for it.

2. Stop signs mean STOP. Virtually every car I see rolls through them when clear making right hand turns. I rarely see anyone pulled over for it.

Need more examples?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

David0214 said:


> Denver,
> 
> That's not the question. Yes we are all in 100% agreement on what the rules say.
> 
> The question is: What would you do? And do you other skippers who have been in that situation? What would/did they do?


You are from Sailing Anarchy sent to stir up the gentlefolk of the sailing forums, aren't you?

TROLL, troll, .... umm (deleted) troll.

Lol


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> You are from Sailing Anarchy sent to stir up the gentlefolk of the sailing forums, aren't you?
> 
> TROLL, troll, .... umm (deleted) troll.
> 
> Lol


It would not be the first time one forum went on a "safari" to another to stir up the pot. Seems to happen most often in the northern hemisphere winter months...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

ianjoub said:


> People DO NOT follow the rules. ......


The post I referenced made no reference to rules in general. It referred specifically to the immigration rules in the Bahamas. Everyone I've ever known, including a dozen visits of my own, have cleared in by the rules. I'm sure there are some dolts that break those rules too.


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## sugarbird (Dec 23, 2013)

Dude! You're making me (and others) crazy! You want real stories from beyond the pale? Okay here's one, some years back...left Puerto Plata, DR, headed east. The C&I guys were very clear, no stopping anywhere between PP and Samana. We started heading east under power, in close to shore. Can't recall what time we left PP, but as the sun was going down the engine started sputtering. We figured it was probably a clogged filter, and were just coming up on a decent little spot (Sosua), so we decided to anchor up for the night, have a little dinner and a good night's rest, change the filter in the morning and get back underway.

As dawn broke we were awakened by the sound of a motorboat chugging up close to us, and the chattering of several loud voices in Spanish. I popped my head up the companionway and looked into the muzzle of a machine gun and two carbines, wielded by barefoot chaps in uniform looking decidedly pissed off and shouting at me (and my Spanish was not so hot).

One of my crew was a little more conversant, and managed to explain the situation. The big dog with the machine gun said "You fix." They boarded us and kept us under gunpoint while we changed filters, primed the system and started the engine. And the people were happy, right? NOT. We up-anchored and departed, and they kept about twenty yards behind up with guns raised for a couple of miles, before breaking off. 

Look, if you get into an absolute, unavoidable jam, you do what you have to do, and take the associated risks, okay? Just don't count on being able to "talk your way out of it," use superior logic, have the cavalry come over the ridge just in time to save your scalp, etc. It's their friggin' country, and they'll do as they darn well please!

Okay I'm done. Well, as Inspector Columbo used to say, "Just one more thing..." If you were in a long line going through TSA at the airport , and you saw an open door that you could go in and maybe sneak past the security check...would you do it? Or suck it up? Happy trails bubba.


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## David0214 (Jan 23, 2015)

This has been a very interesting research project! 

Finding out what the rules SAY is fairly straight-forward: go to places like Noonsite.com (which I learned about on this forum) and get it right there in black & white. But what I wanted to know was: what about the grey, the fuzzy logic? So I came up with my "exhausted crew" scenario, where there was no genuine emergency, but the skipper would certainly be TEMPTED to bend the rules, all in the interest of protecting boat and crew. The purpose was to poke around the edges, and see what the real attitude is out there from those who have been there. 

The replies have been quite surprising! I had always assumed that sailors, in general, tended to be "free spirits", eager to escape the trappings of society, and more likely to agree with the idea that "all of man's rules are subject to interpretation." 

Turns out I was dead wrong. All of the sailors who have replied to this thread (so far) are unanimous: they all agree that "the law is the law is the law, final, period, end of story, no ifs ands or buts!" And I've heard some chilling tales to back it up.

Actually I'd still like to collect more data, hear more stories, play devil's advocate! I don't need any more stern lectures or finger-wagging; just tell me what you would do if something like this happened to you, or someone you know. Here's the scenario again:
•	2-person crew is exhausted, after battling horrid conditions for days
•	too close to lee shore to heave-to
•	have not yet checked into C&I
•	nearest port of entry is a day's sail away (and conditions STILL suck)
•	there is a nearby place, looks uninhabited, would make a fine anchorage! 

Options:
a) Drop anchor, get some rest, sail to port of entry tomorrow and check in then. 
b) Keep going.
c) other

Or if you have an even better scenario, let's hear it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Asked and answered. You drop anchor and when conditions clear, you immediately proceed to the port of entry and clear in. You aren't asking anything new.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Some of us would say more, but then why spoil the illusion the dirt dwellers espouse here? There is also local custom involved in many area of the world.....


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

aeventyr60 said:


> Some of us would say more, but then why spoil the illusion the dirt dwellers espouse here?


Yeah, I suppose I could share what I did upon arrival in the Ragged Islands of the Bahamas after bolting from Baracoa, without officially clearing out of Cuba, for instance...

Or, the details of a rest stop I MIGHT have taken in Isla Mujeres during a tiring upwind slog from Belize to Key West... Or, whether or not I actually went ashore at Fort Jefferson before officially clearing back in at Key West...

Or, how long I may (or may not have) lingered at anchor in heavy fog in Port Mouton, Nova Scotia, before officially clearing into Canada upon my arrival in Lunenberg...

However, I think I'll pass... I wouldn't want to spoil any of the OP's preconceived notions, nor come across as one of those smug, insufferable _"free spirits", eager to escape the trappings of society, and more likely to agree with the idea that "all of man's rules are subject to interpretation."_, after all ...

;-))

I will admit to one thing, however... All of those situations mentioned - if in fact they actually ever DID occur - would have taken place while cruising aboard my own boat, and not while delivering someone else's...

;-))


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

David0214 said:


> This has been a very interesting research project!


I would humbly suggest that you are trying the patience of those posters (including myself) who participate in an effort to help other boaters/sailors.  There is *NO* answer to your question. And continuing to ask it, is IMHO irritating. The fundamental answer is: it depends on the C&I person. I have, on several occasions and under special circumstance not been able to check into a port of entry. In each case I have contacted the local authorities and explained my problem. Most of the time they have been forgiving and worked with me.

I think the most important thing to remember is that courtesy goes a long way. I am always courteous and respectful. I have been amazed at the people who are not. I was trying to check out of Mexico with two other boats. One of the Captains was whining at the Port Captain about what he considered to be an affront. After about 10 minutes of this the Port Captain signed my papers and excused me. I heard later that the complaining boat was still in port the next day.

You will excuse me but this is my last post on this thread.

Fair winds and following seas


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## David0214 (Jan 23, 2015)

svzephyr44 said:


> I would humbly suggest that you are trying the patience of those posters (including myself) who participate in an effort to help other boaters/sailors.


Hi Zephyr,

My deepest apologies if my questions irritated anyone. My purpose all along has been to gather up stories, anecdotes, advice, opinions, and lessons learned from sailors out there who have dealt with C&I around the world, including the good, the bad, and the ugly. Your story about the "complaining captain" in Mexico with the (apparently) bad attitude that got him into deep s*** is perfect!

By golly, that's what forums are for: to exchange information!

So I've copied and pasted the best of the best from all the replies I've received, and I'm compiling them together (along with some blog extracts I've found here and there). I'm considering various options on what to do with it all. I hope this thread continues to be productive.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

While considering "what to do with it all," I can only hope you won't be quite so cavalier about copyright laws as you seem to want to be concerning C&I laws.

(I can hope, but I certainly won't hold my breath.)


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

David0214 said:


> ...
> 
> So I've copied and pasted the best of the best from all the replies I've received, and I'm compiling them together (along with some blog extracts I've found here and there). *I'm considering various options on what to do with it all.* I hope this thread continues to be productive.


I think this may be the key to the irritation. At least with me. You continue to seek answers beyond what someone without a boat should need. It may or may not be the case, but it sounds like there is more to your asking then just future personal use on your own adventures.

It is sort of amusing that you get so many irritated replies yet you grin and jovially plug on anyway.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

DRFerron said:


> ...
> 
> It is sort of amusing that you get so many irritated replies yet you grin and jovially plug on anyway.


Golly, that's true!


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

David0214 said:


> By golly, that's what forums are for: to exchange information!


And yet you can't seem to be bothered to search for the hundreds of times these questions--mostly by "ugly Americans"--have been asked and answered already.

I retain copyright to the contents of all my posts on this thread and will dog you unmercifully if your decision on "what to do" with my contributions is published in any form elsewhere.


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## Mr. Bubs (Aug 21, 2013)

DRFerron said:


> It is sort of amusing that you get so many irritated replies yet you grin and jovially plug on anyway.


Trolls gonna troll, Donna!


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