# Rusty Keel Bolts - How bad is it?



## Fodder (Aug 17, 2008)

Hi All,

I'm in the process of looking for my next boat and I've found a very nice 1985 Beneteau First 345. It's in great condition and I've gone over what I can using Sailing Dog's checklist and it has passed with flying colors so far. My only concern are the keel bolts. They are pretty rusty compared to my current boat and I'm wondering how big a deal this is and if it's a simple fix? I don't have a marine yard nearby so would attempt the fix myself first, if the consensus is it's possible. John Kretchmer's 'Used Boat Notebook' identifies this issue in this vintage of the First 345 and is fairly dismissive, but I was hoping for a broader view. I've done some research about keel bolts in general and Beneteau's keep coming up as examples of boats that are prone to this. Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. Is this a deal-breaker kind of issue or a negotiating point?

Thank you


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## Fodder (Aug 17, 2008)

OK, I'm an idiot.  I didn't search long enough on this site for answers. Carry on...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I would highly recommend, if you buy this boat, that you DROP THE KEEL and inspect the keel bolts properly. Keel bolts can be deceptive in appearance, since crevice corrosion can lead to what looks like a good bolt, being actually quite weak. As an example of what I'm talking about, here is a photo by Maine Sail of a crevice corroded keel bolt.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

The keel bolts on a Beneteau First screw into the keel. While the heads may appear wasted, given the snaps you have posted, they are not unusual for the yacht's age. A couple of wacks with a maul on the top of the bolts to dislodge the larger rust and little work with a wire brush chucked into your drill will clean them up well enough for you to loosen and pull the bolts. That can be done one-bolt-at-a-time in the water, the process recommended by Beneteau, or, shoreside during a haul-out if you're the nervous type. If you will PM me with your email address I will forward copies of Beneteau's procedures for replacing the bolts. Once the new bolts are in place, they should be thoroughly coated with a moisture barrier as described in their literature but it's not a big deal. You'll do fine.

FWIW...


s/v HyLyte


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## Fodder (Aug 17, 2008)

Thanks for the advice Sailingdog and svHyLyte. I read through Don Casey's sticky on keel bolts as well and it, along with your responses have reassured me. BTW, Sailingdog, thanks again for the Boat Inspection Trip Tips, I actually had them up on my laptop that I brought with me to the boat. The owner was impressed I was being so thorough and was proud of his boat.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Good to hear Fodder, and glad to help.


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## Don Huseman (Aug 22, 2001)

These keel bolts are very bad and the boat is in danger of capsizing when the keel falls off. There are several ways of repairing the keel bolts. The first is to take the keel of and melt out the old keel bolt and weld the lead around a new keel bolts. This is kind of expensive but about 300 per bolt.
The way my company does it is to drill and tap in new keel bolts. This cost about 300 per bolt and does not require the keel to be taken off. This way if done by a company called Keel bolt Inspection and Repair can be done on most keels.
If you can't afford to have it done then you can pocket in the bolts your self. Use 316 Stainless steel all thread material and drill down into the lead with 1/2 " drills and work your way up to the bolt dia


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Fodder, the bendytoy keelbolts are totally different from traditional keel bolts.

"Real" keel bolts are big J-bolts that are cast into the keel, made of stainless or (better) bronze. Most of the Benes don't use lead keels though, and they don't use J-bolts. They usually use cast iron keels, and because cast iron is stronger than lead, they don't use the long J-bolts. Instead they use short iron bolts (iron in the iron keel, makes sense) that may only be 4" long tapped into the iron keel.

Yes, this means they can easily rust. it also means--and this is an intentional design feature--that you should be able to UNBOLT each keel bolt, one at a time, and REPLACE IT, one at at time, with new keel bolts. Without dropping the keel, without any fuss. Just a big big wrench and some penetrating fluid needed. 

I'm not sure I like the concept, or cast iron keels at all, but I can appreciate the logic behind it. You'll also find the folks at Beneteau USA are very fast to answer questions about these features, and that includes looking at pictures.

For a Beneteau? This is supposed to be (almost) routine maintenace, not a deal stopper.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

hellosailor said:


> Yes, this means they can easily rust. it also means--and this is an intentional design feature--that you should be able to UNBOLT each keel bolt, one at a time, and REPLACE IT, one at at time, with new keel bolts. Without dropping the keel, without any fuss. Just a big big wrench and some penetrating fluid needed.


So if someone left it go too long and you try to take them out and something twists off it sounds like a pretty big problem.


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## thevdeub (Apr 17, 2010)

Would like to know if you ended up buying the boat and do the work. i have the same issue and begin to think seriously about doing it.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

One of the scariest problems for people new to boats who are looking to buy used is knowing what IS a serious problem and what only LOOKS like a serious problem. As said above, this falls into that second category but having a resource like SailNet is a sure fire way to be darn sure before putting down those greenbacks. Better to be sure than to be regretful.


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## doncx (Nov 27, 2004)

*I just replaced my Beneteau First 345 Keel Bolts*

Well, this thread is more than a year old, but I thought I'd add some recently acquired wisdom.

I just finished replacing the keel bolts in my recently-purchased First 345.

The heads looked *much* worse than in Fodder's pictures. MUCH worse.

The bolts were fine and they came out stubbornly, but they came out. The toughest part was breaking them loose, both because of sealant under them and also because I had to grind the heads back into a hex shape - they were puddles of rust.

But the shanks of the bolts were perfect, with only one slight exception; a bolt next to the mast step that must have leaked around the sealant.

After replacing five of them (one at a time) with brute strength and a 30" breaker bar, I switched to a rented 3/4" impact wrench driven by compressor. It was a great move. Every one came out easily with the impact wrench.

Beneteau has instructions. They are good - follow them!

The project is entirely doable. Don't be scared off by the gloom and doomers who have replied to this thread.


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## thevdeub (Apr 17, 2010)

agreed. Impact wrench is the way to go.


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## GeorgeGR (Oct 28, 2012)

Hi, could you possibly e-mail mecopies of Beneteau's procedures for replacing the bolts?

While I am a new number of the forum it is not possible to send you a PM

Thank you in advance

George



svHyLyte said:


> The keel bolts on a Beneteau First screw into the keel. While the heads may appear wasted, given the snaps you have posted, they are not unusual for the yacht's age. A couple of wacks with a maul on the top of the bolts to dislodge the larger rust and little work with a wire brush chucked into your drill will clean them up well enough for you to loosen and pull the bolts. That can be done one-bolt-at-a-time in the water, the process recommended by Beneteau, or, shoreside during a haul-out if you're the nervous type. If you will PM me with your email address I will forward copies of Beneteau's procedures for replacing the bolts. Once the new bolts are in place, they should be thoroughly coated with a moisture barrier as described in their literature but it's not a big deal. You'll do fine.
> 
> FWIW...
> 
> s/v HyLyte


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

GeorgeGR said:


> Hi, could you possibly e-mail mecopies of Beneteau's procedures for replacing the bolts?
> 
> While I am a new number of the forum it is not possible to send you a PM
> 
> ...


George--Have a look at (click on): Beneteau Keel Bolt Replacement


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## tijmenkok (Jun 20, 2014)

@ svHyLyte,
Hi, I have a First 305. My bolts look exactly as the one you showed in the pictures of Fodder. They make me nervous.
As I am a new visitor, I am only allowed to send a PM after 20 posts. This is my first one
Would you be so kind and provide me with the Beneteau replacement procedure description. Please send them to [email protected]
Thanks in advance, Tijmen Kok


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## Salamander (Jan 29, 2014)

Keelbolts really are fascinating, they seem to be a pretty decisive factor in terms of boat safety. Once your keel has gone you have had it. I wonder how much of the damage occurs from inside the boat (specifically water in the bilges) as opposed to due to external factors. I can't really imagine that looking at the condition of the top of the bolts or the nuts is going to tell you that much about the risks that bolt failures actually present.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

tijmenkok said:


> @ svHyLyte,
> Hi, I have a First 305. My bolts look exactly as the one you showed in the pictures of Fodder. They make me nervous.
> As I am a new visitor, I am only allowed to send a PM after 20 posts. This is my first one
> Would you be so kind and provide me with the Beneteau replacement procedure description. Please send them to [email protected]
> Thanks in advance, Tijmen Kok


Tijmen--

The Beneteau keel bolt replacement file is reproduced in its entirety in post #22 at Beneteau Keel Bolt Replacement Discussion.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Just so's you all know - THIS is what bad keel bolts (studs) from an iron keel look like.


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## ronick1 (Feb 28, 2015)

Dear svHyLyte,
I read your msg about keel bolts.
Could you forward me the copies of Beneteau's procedures for replacing the bolts.
thank you in advance
Robert


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

ronick1 said:


> Dear svHyLyte,
> I read your msg about keel bolts.
> Could you forward me the copies of Beneteau's procedures for replacing the bolts.
> thank you in advance
> Robert


Robert,

The Beneteau keel bolt replacement file is reproduced in its entirety in post #22 at (click on) Beneteau Keel Bolt Replacement Discussion.


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## kernunnos (Mar 31, 2015)

Ok as long as this thread has been revived, I'll ask if anyone knows about the Tanzer 7.5 1982 Keel bolts... the 2 forward have more rust on the steel washers, square ones, the rest are barely worth mentioning, they look galvanized, the washers, the boltheads are stainless and of course, look fine. This boat has a cast Iron keel so electrolysis from dissimilar metals may have some effect.
On another note.... I get a really good feeling from the guy as he is selling because his arthritis is making it difficult to solo and has friends he can sail with. His wife doesn't sail with him.
He repaints the bottom every 2 to 3 years and sails it all year. So I'm thinking...bad idea, I know...that he would do the right thing and deal with any issues that came up, as they came up, that is to say, if the joint between hull & keel was cracking, he would have dealt with it when he hauled it out. So, back to the question, anyone know about the boat?


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## marxshields (Jul 16, 2015)

svHyLyte said:


> The keel bolts on a Beneteau First screw into the keel. While the heads may appear wasted, given the snaps you have posted, they are not unusual for the yacht's age. A couple of wacks with a maul on the top of the bolts to dislodge the larger rust and little work with a wire brush chucked into your drill will clean them up well enough for you to loosen and pull the bolts. That can be done one-bolt-at-a-time in the water, the process recommended by Beneteau, or, shoreside during a haul-out if you're the nervous type. If you will PM me with your email address I will forward copies of Beneteau's procedures for replacing the bolts. Once the new bolts are in place, they should be thoroughly coated with a moisture barrier as described in their literature but it's not a big deal. You'll do fine.
> 
> FWIW...
> 
> s/v HyLyte


Hi,
I have just discovered the rusty keel bolt problem on my Beneteau 35 First. I've just started my research and read that you have a copy of Beneteau's procedures for replacing the bolts.

I'd be grateful if you could send me a link or email the copy.

Thanks,

Mark


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

marxshields said:


> Hi,
> I have just discovered the rusty keel bolt problem on my Beneteau 35 First. I've just started my research and read that you have a copy of Beneteau's procedures for replacing the bolts.
> 
> I'd be grateful if you could send me a link or email the copy.
> ...





svHyLyte said:


> Robert,
> 
> The Beneteau keel bolt replacement file is reproduced in its entirety in post #22 at (click on) Beneteau Keel Bolt Replacement Discussion.


I think he already posted that link just a few posts up...


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## rfmoff (Nov 24, 2015)

Hi have just read this thread and would apriciate if you could send me the procedure please


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## Mathieu Tremblay (Apr 5, 2016)

Good day, I have the same problem on my Oceanis 440 and the boatyard is trying to convince me to separate the hull from the keel to change the bolts and reseal. SO I would like to see the document you have from Beneteau, if you still have it. Please reply to mattremblay à hotmail com (not enough post for email). 

Thanks a lot,

Mathieu


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## capt jgwinks (Sep 24, 2013)

When I pulled the galvanized bolts out of my Columbia 36 the forward most one was rusted right through below the surface. Didn't appear to be connected at all. The other eight looked almost new below the surface but very rusty on top where bilge water had gotten to them. I replaced them all and added an extra where the single bolt had rusted out, there's now two side by side. Since the joint was leaking I also dropped the keel to rebed. We're now waiting for a good day to set the hull back on the keel.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Mathieu Tremblay said:


> Good day, I have the same problem on my Oceanis 440 and the boatyard is trying to convince me to separate the hull from the keel to change the bolts and reseal. SO I would like to see the document you have from Beneteau, if you still have it. Please reply to mattremblay à hotmail com (not enough post for email).
> 
> Thanks a lot,
> 
> Mathieu


The Beneteau keel bolt replacement file is reproduced in its entirety in post #22 at (click on) Beneteau Keel Bolt Replacement Discussion. Unless you find that your keel bolts show signs of wetness once you've pulled one, there is no need to "drop the keel". In fact, the bolts can be replaced, one at a time (working in a star pattern), while the yacht is in the water.

FWIW...


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## capt jgwinks (Sep 24, 2013)

If its leaking at all the only reliable way to seal it is to drop the keel. Once you get the nuts off or bolts out it's easy, just brace the keel up so it doesn't tip over and have the yard lift the hull off. If it looks like you'll have to work on the keel make sure they leave you enough room to do that. 
My yard didn't even charge me for the extra lift time.


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## brccd (Jun 20, 2010)

*Re: I just replaced my Beneteau First 345 Keel Bolts*

Hi, i am interested in your experience changing these keel bolts. I have a 1985 beneteau 345 first, and the original keel bolts....they are rusted and appear to be "weeping" water. thinking time to change and seal...from the outside, the last time short hauled..keel joint looked fine...These bolts have been looking and acting this way for years.

I see you used an impact wrench to loosen...how did the bolts on your boat look? Bad? were they dry or also somewhat wet? leaking? etc.?

Thanks,
Bert


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## Mathieu Tremblay (Apr 5, 2016)

I did pulled one out and all threads are like new. We had a hard time with two of them, one was freaking torqued, and the others so rusty that it was impossible to have a good grip. I managed to grind it a little bit and fit a different socket on it.. I did not ordered from beneteau France because they don't stock them any more, but the boatyard finally got me a good price for same spec bolts... 

Thanks to all of you, otherwise I might had agreed to remove the mast and separate de keel.

Cheers!


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## brccd (Jun 20, 2010)

hello Mathieu, Thanks for the info

A couple of questions...

In the boat I only readily see 8 bolts, but they say there are 11?
Did you change all of them?

I have some weeping water coming through...did you have that?

Did you change them while the boat was in water or on land?

Did you use a socket and breaker bar, or an impact wrench to remove? If an impact wrench was used, any particular model?

I can add some pics of the bolts...I will get that this weekend...its currently in water.

This was my uncles boat, he originally obtained in France (1985)...I inherited it and the keel bolts are the last things I have not touched in it as far as repair! Trying to make it last another 30 years!

Thank you
Bertrand


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## skimatsu (Feb 5, 2017)

Good info from svHyLyte. I would really like to see the Beneteau procedures if still available.


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## brccd (Jun 20, 2010)

Hi, 

After cleaning the bolts up, and checking other things...the water was not from the keel bolts....it is bone dry.
Once the bolts were cleaned, they actually did not look so bad! 2 of the bolt washers do have some corrosion.

Attached some pics
most forward..looked worrisom and then cleaned up

some other bolts...cleaned those up more, and look better

I actually have new bolts and washers from Beneteau and plan to still try to replace them in the next short haul...this May.

I will start with one of them, with an impact wrench to loosen, and the breaker bar...hopefully that goes well.
3 of the bolts are actually fiberglassed over. If the ones I remove look ok, i might just leave those. There is one forward and might cut into the fiber glass to inspect the head...if that all looks well...may leave it alone.

last short haul, keel hull joint looked good...so hopefully still good...
Bert


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

A couple of things - inspecting just the heads or nuts of keel bolts is nearly meaningless - they usually deteriorate by getting wasp waisted where they go through the hull.

Since you have actual cap screws ("bolts") rather than the usual studs & nuts then checking will be easy for you. You don't have to have the boat on the hard to check them - just remove & replace one at a time. Keel bolts have huge safety margins on them so having one out at the dock is not remotely a problem.

If it was me I'd also make up some decent backing plates instead of simply relying on washers to spread those huge loads. I'd also try to find titanium cap screws to replace those steel ones.

Don't forget to put anti-seize on the threads when you replace them.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

brccd said:


> Hi,
> 
> After cleaning the bolts up, and checking other things...the water was not from the keel bolts....it is bone dry.
> Once the bolts were cleaned, they actually did not look so bad! 2 of the bolt washers do have some corrosion.
> ...


They must never-seize them pretty good to come out looking like that. The 10 year cycle will definitely help. If I were buying a Boat knowing this needed to be done I would sure like to see it successfully completed prior to purchase. Or at least a receipt for the last service replacement. Maybe an overreaction but that sure is ugly.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

SloopJonB said:


> A couple of things - inspecting just the heads or nuts of keel bolts is nearly meaningless - they usually deteriorate by getting wasp waisted where they go through the hull.
> 
> Since you have actual cap screws ("bolts") rather than the usual studs & nuts then checking will be easy for you. You don't have to have the boat on the hard to check them - just remove & replace one at a time. Keel bolts have huge safety margins on them so having one out at the dock is not remotely a problem.
> 
> ...


Finding titanium caps isn't hard, but as much as I love Ti, I wouldn't use them without replacing the bolts. The galvanic corrosion issue is just too much of an issue.


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## brccd (Jun 20, 2010)

Hi Thanks for the reply...

I have read the other posts about taking one of the bolts out at a time while in water...but...

Like you mention, and I realize as well, if there is some wear, rust due to water between the hull and keel, and I try to take it out, and it breaks...then what...water coming in. So, I will wait until the boat is out on land, and try it there. However I see absolutely no water around the bolts, after drying the bildge out completely and for weeks. Thus, I am thinking the joint is ok...but you never know...its 32 years old...

I don't know about titanium bolts, and have the replacement bolts from beneteau already. The ones there have lasted this long and probably would keep lasting...so if the new ones go in, and care taken over the next years, would expect another 32 years!

Beneteau sent the washers, which looks like what was there so, I will still with that, but did wonder about different backing plates. Again the washers worked for all this time...guessing they will be good for another 32 years as well!

Thoughts?

Thanks


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Stumble said:


> Finding titanium caps isn't hard, but as much as I love Ti, I wouldn't use them without replacing the bolts. The galvanic corrosion issue is just too much of an issue.


Not quite sure what you mean. Titanium cap screws ARE "bolts".


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

SloopJonB said:


> Not quite sure what you mean. Titanium cap screws ARE "bolts".


I read it as cap nuts, not bolts, my mistake.

I actually think Ti would make a very good keel bolt, but I have never seen a NA sign off on one (or reject one). I did speak with Mars Keel abou it and they were intrigued, but built to the design and didn't do much if any in house.

It's one of those things I think would be ok, but I would really want a pro to take a look before I did it.


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