# RIB Life?



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

After 9 years and three (perhaps more) patches, my trusty West Marine (by Zodiac) SB-275 is showing its age, and leaking again... I had purchased registration plates from boatnumberplate.com, but these have peeled off and been reapplied several times, and discolored in the RI weather. The last patch job was at the seams where the tubes meet the floor. I fear that this is where it is leaking again, because it is a difficult place to prepare for patching. The Admiral says that she wants to review some replacement options. If she likes the options, she will approve the purchase, and might even foot the bill!

For the first 5 years this PVC dinghy led a cushy life. It was assembled when needed, and when not needed it was stored under the tonneau cover in the back of my pickup truck. For the past 4 years, however, it has been tied to the dinghy dock and exposed to rain and ultraviolet light because it was the only way to get to my boat. The primary vessel has moved from a slip to a mooring. Now when I am out for a sail, the dinghy is either left on the mooring (daysail), or towed behind the boat (over night). I am growing concerned that the dink may sink, taking the mooring pennant AND the outboard with it.

My biggest complaint with the SB-275 is assembly. It takes about an hour and at least three cracked fingernails and several cuss words to get the plywood segmented floor assembled, in place, with the aluminum stringers. "Seven to ten minutes," as claimed in the video, is ABSOLUTE BS!





There is NO WAY that you could pack this thing up at the end of every day and store it in the lazerette as the Video below says.






I have not painted the bottom of the dinghy with bottom paint. Instead, I take the dinghy to a beach every two to three weeks and scrape the major bottom growth with a plastic putty knife, and scrub the remainder with beach sand. This is a chore, but I actually enjoy it! My little Mercury 3.3 used to get me and the boat up to a plane, but I don't think it can anymore.

My initial outlay was only $750, so that's $75/year, so I'm not complaining. But I need a tender for the primary vessel. I also need something that I can transport in the back of my car, or something that can be delivered to a RI marina, because I don't have access to my truck. I left the pickup truck in Florida in anticipation of moving the boat there this fall.

Questions for the collective: 

How many years does YOUR inflatable last?
Suggestions for replacement??


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Depends.... I had 2 Avons ('85-93), a zodiac (94-00), w/ plywood floors...Then I think I had Achilles also with plywood floor (01-08.. then I got some 10' RIBS.... AquaPro (alum) (08-12).. followed by a another AquaPro 13-14) and then a Highfied (15-17) and now a Tug (alum) (18-present).

Aluminum w/ paint is a bad idea... (AquaPro & Highfield)
Latest ones were PVC but earlier were hypolon which seems superior.

I liked the hard hand grips on the Highfield - Don't like the straps of the Tug
Like the bow locker on the RIBs.... especially the Tug
Like the double floor on the RIBS

AquaPro manufactured in Australia were far superior to the outsourced ones to China.
Zodiac and Achilles had leak problems.... water and air.
AquaPro had a patch which did leak.

I liked Hifield and Tug designs.

Next boat will be a Tug Locker 10 hypalon.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

There is a lot to unpack in your questions, and a lot of the answers are "it depends".

One easy one is shipping. Dinghies will ship directly to whatever address you give them, so delivering to a marina is no problem. You don't need to pick them up. However, I was unsure if you needed to transport the dinghy often and it needs to roll up to trunk size.

A RIB solves many shortcomings of the typical inflatable dingy. But it also has the obvious disadvantages of storage and portability.

As to lifespan, PVC will be the shortest, and would better be measured in months instead of years if you are taking it South and leaving it unprotected. After that, any West Marine hypalon dinghy will be the next shortest lifespan. It doesn't matter who makes it for them, because they are made to a price point, not a quality point. However, there is a certain quality/value proposition there. Next in lifespan are hypalon dinghies by major manufacturers. Hypalon is made in different grades - West Marine uniformly uses Orca 215 hypalon, which is pretty much balloon grade, but more serviceable than PVC. It is tough to get other major manufacturers to tell what fabric they use, but from research AB, Achilles, and almost all the rest use the next grade up Orca 820 (there is a grade between those two, but nobody uses it). This is really the minimum grade hypalon to use for a serious dinghy, but again there is a value/cost proposition with the lower grade WM boats - particularly when they go on deep discount sale twice a year. Nouverania and a couple of other higher end manufacturers use Orca 828 fabric, which is very much a step up from the others in terms of ruggedness. Until recently, this was the fabric that Caribe used, but they have switched to lower 820. Zodiac's commercial line, Flexboat, and some others produce military-level boats using Orca 866 fabric. This stuff is almost bullet proof - you can't punch a nail through it.

The glues and gluing environments determine how well the seams age. Hypalon needs to be glued in a very controlled environment with only a narrow range of temperature and humidity allowed. I visited the Nouverania plant, and their glue room took me by surprise at the level of isolation, computer control, and environmental monitoring. They won't even go in it until everything is perfect, then they complete the entire glue job in one setting so that the whole dinghy experiences the same variables. It is anybody's guess what the Chinese factory pumping out gobs of WM dinghies are doing in this area.

Then there are the ancillary parts of the dingy like handles, oarlocks, D-rings, etc. The cheaper ones use PVC and low quality plastics. These fall off and/or break after 1-3 years and are almost impossible to glue back on securely. The higher end ones use EPDM fittings that last the life of the dingy. 

I answered 13-15yrs in the poll. However, that is taking into account our very specific RIB specifications. Our first RIB was built with higher than normal quality hypalon and it was 16yrs old when we sold it and held air perfectly. No punctures or leaks, although I did have to change a leaky valve once at ~12yrs old. The fabric itself was getting thinner in wear spots like where people sit and where the tubes drag on a beach, but otherwise was still in great shape. We sold it because we wanted a dingy we wouldn't need to replace in the next 5yrs. The manufacturer is no longer in business. Our current dinghy is a Caribe RIB, but we worked directly with the factory to have one built with military-grade hypalon instead of their normal hypalon (at an extra cost of course). I expect this one to also last 15+ years.

For longevity, one of the best things you can do for any dinghy is make some chap covers for them. Helps with UV and abrasion. However, our first one described above was bare for the first 11yrs of its life, and our current one still doesn't have any covers yet, but they are planned.

I don't have any specific suggestions for you because I haven't spent time in the market/model segment you are looking at, but hope the above helps in general when choosing a new dinghy.

Mark


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

My Achillies RIB Lite is going on 11 years and still looks darn good... I am going to estimate at least another 9 years of life and we use it a good bit... Nothing like a full time cruiser. Prior I had an AVON and swore never to buy another. 

What I see a lot from the You Tubers is Highfields... They look like a good option for my next when needed... But hopefully, if my 8 year plan sticks... I'll have a big enough boat that I'll be done with Inflatable boats and will get a Boston Whaler Tender... And that will outlive me for sure hahaha


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I have a different approach but am not a cruiser.

My wife made a sunbrella cover for the dinghy which has elastic and is easy to keep it covered either in the davirts or the dock.

I only buy PVC and am on my third dinghy in 23 years. The other two lasted 10 years each, but I sold them after then as they weren't done but it was replacement time

We bought a new dinghy two years ago. Aluminum floors so two floors, carry's up to 1200 lbs. can be rolled up after our season or when going off shore..it's a zodiac cadet 310.









Zodiac Aluminum Floor 10' 2" White/Gray PVC, 2020


Zodiac Cadet C310AL White / Gray PVC 2020, Length 10' 2", Material: PVC, Weight 109 Lbs, , Zodiac Aluminum Floor 10' 2" White/Gray PVC, 2020 from Defender Industries




www.defender.com





Very happy with it. Done need a planning dinghy though it will as I have a 5 hp Tahatsu Propane OB. It's cost on sale was $1300. I can buy two for what a haploid model costs. The trick is definitely to cover it as much as possible. You should see how faded the cover is after 3 years. Taylor makes appropriate good sunbrella covers also which my wife modified for the davits.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Poll was hard to answer. My last dinghy (an Avon hypolon with center console) was around for about 12 years. I had to nurse it constantly for the last 5 years. It had two patches. One was a leak on the top, where it wore through, presumably from passenger chafe. The other was done in advance of davit chafe making it's way through. The center console steering and electrical were another annual pita in the later years. I could not wait to get rid of it. 

I answered 5-7 years, not because you can't get more years out of one, but because I don't want to have to deal with it. As soon as this one starts to act up, it gets traded in. That's my estimate. Although, this is my 4th season with an aluminum hull AB and zero issues so far. We'll see.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

If i went to an inflatable...
These look interesting to me..kiwi








True Kit Discovery - Lightweight Landing Craft


Fast, fun catamaran-style inflatable boat that is used for fishing, diving and recreation. The OPEN BOW design creates easy access from the water to the boat. These same qualities make the Discovery an exceptional rescue boat for water sports where personal water recovery is likely including...




truekit.nz





A high end welded pvc
Ive read articles on valmex with reported life similar to hypalon..and no glued seams
Also like the easy entry and exit of these boats, plus wont hold water in the boat
Prob not great for cold climes


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

My last dinghy was a Coastral that I got in NH (OP may have seen these at the NE Boat Show). It started coming apart at 1 year with fittings coming off. At 32 months old one day coming back to it from being ashore that front seam blew out.

I now have the best West Marine dinghy that was available that day. It is now 14 months old and nothing has gone bad on it. But I did buy a cheap $72 Walmart sewing machine and $200 on Sunbrella and made chaps for the it.I don't think it reasonable to expect a dinghy out is the sun, getting full water reflection, to last without chaps.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

We are on our second Zodiac Classic Mark 1. It is *not *a RIB. It has aluminum floors and an inflatable keel so it handles very well.
Our first one lasted from 2007 to 2018 always in the tropical sun and used almost every single day. We did not baby it and would go for long trips in some pretty stinky weather, running at 15 knots or so with the 15hp ob. We put no effort into care and it never developed any sort of air leak, ever. We kept it out of the water on davits so we didn't have to clean the bottom. 
I can't speak to the ease of assembly, since we only put it together once, but it should become easier the more you do it and I'm sure little tricks like lubing the floorboard side rails would really simplify assembly. I do know that partial inflation is important. I believe it is the last inflatable not built in Asia as it is still built in France. 
It is probably too big for your needs, but it is a great dinghy, well built (comes w/a 5 year warranty), and requires little care.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Don L said:


> I now have the best West Marine dinghy that was available that day. It is now 14 months old and nothing has gone bad on it. But I did buy a cheap $72 Walmart sewing machine and $200 on Sunbrella and made chaps for the it.I don't think it reasonable to expect a dinghy out is the sun, getting full water reflection, to last without chaps.


I have seen a few inflatables with serious wear from the chaps so, I'd suggest removing the chaps from time to time to inspect the dinghy.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

eherlihy said:


> After 9 years and three (perhaps more) patches, my trusty West Marine (by Zodiac) SB-275 is showing its age, and leaking again... I had purchased registration plates from boatnumberplate.com, but these have peeled off and been reapplied several times, and discolored in the RI weather. The last patch job was at the seams where the tubes meet the floor. I fear that this is where it is leaking again, because it is a difficult place to prepare for patching. The Admiral says that she wants to review some replacement options. If she likes the options, she will approve the purchase, and might even foot the bill!
> 
> For the first 5 years this PVC dinghy led a cushy life. It was assembled when needed, and when not needed it was stored under the tonneau cover in the back of my pickup truck. For the past 4 years, however, it has been tied to the dinghy dock and exposed to rain and ultraviolet light because it was the only way to get to my boat. The primary vessel has moved from a slip to a mooring. Now when I am out for a sail, the dinghy is either left on the mooring (daysail), or towed behind the boat (over night). I am growing concerned that the dink may sink, taking the mooring pennant AND the outboard with it.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you have been abusing your boat for the past few years. (No judgement, just an observation!) Once the glued seams start breaking down you are fighting a losing battle. UV kills PVC. That's why Hypalon is so much more expensive!

We have a PVC Aquapro that is about 11 years old, and it lives on a dinghy dock year round. Sometimes covered sometimes not. Out biggest problem is mildew stains from winter storage, and rubber rub strips and logo have discoloured and gone sticky. Structurally the boat is still great!

I love the aluminum hull. No messing around with floorboards etc and the boat still weighs less than 100lb. I just wish it was a little bit bigger.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

If it helps, I believe that the largest RIB that I could reasonably tow behind the mother ship is 10' 6" - and the budget is LESS THAN $4K. (remember, my current benchmark is $75/year!)

It seems like a CSM (Hypalon) boat is in my future - to contend with the Florida sun. (yes, I have been abusing the dink!) I also see an Aluminum floor for light weight and puncture resistance... Or maybe a high pressure floor so that I can carry it in the back of my car. When I was charter captaining around Narragansett Bay, I had a Mercury inflatable with a high pressure inflatable floor that was my favorite tender. It handled well, and it _seemed _indestructible - several times I used it as a fender and it excelled!

Coastal Boats states that they manufacture their boats out of Mehler-Valmex® 8318 PVC or Pennel ORCA® 828 CSM, and I like the idea of a fiberglass transom. However @Don L 's review above makes me hesitate.

Caribe, Aquapro, Achilles and AB seem like the recommended manufacturers thus far.

Thank you to all that have helped me thus far.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

My hypalon Achilles (plywood floor, not a RIB) is 20 years old! Granted it has lived an easy life, only being out in the sun and weather when out cruising. The rest of the time its packed up and stowed below. Never had to patch a leak. Floor and transom get a coat of varnish every other year. Red is faded, but that's about it. Great boat.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

T37Chef said:


> What I see a lot from the You Tubers is Highfields... They look like a good option for my next when needed...... I'll have a big enough boat that I'll be done with Inflatable boats and will get a Boston Whaler Tender... And that will outlive me for sure hahaha


Most of the Highfields I see down here are specifically built for the bareboat market and don't seem to be much better than any West Marine Rib/inflatable, just bigger.
If you do get your Boston Whaler, I'll bet you that you are back to an inflatable/rib in a year!


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

capta said:


> Most of the Highfields I see down here are specifically built for the bareboat market and don't seem to be much better than any West Marine Rib/inflatable, just bigger.
> If you do get your Boston Whaler, I'll bet you that you are back to an inflatable/rib in a year!


Haven't seen one (Highfield) in person yet... Hard to really tell in a video  The Aluminum floor models appear well designed and built, thanks for the input though.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I had a nice air floor Walker Bay with 18 inch tubes before. Inflatable air floor. I liked it a lot

after a couple years with our new aluminum floor it’s much more stable to just stand up . It’s easy to put together once you get the hang of it

ours stays together most of the year. It can be broken down in a nice carrying bag.


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## Steve Bateman (Aug 10, 2016)

I see a lot of ribs overinflated here in the tropics which puts strain on every joint ! Problem is they inflate them to hard in the shade or the morning and when they get them out in the sun the air expands at an alarming rate. Check your pressure when its been in the sun a while if you want it to last...


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I can't fit a 10' inflated boat on the fore deck and use the fore deck for anything but storing the inflatable, I've done that in winter. I don't use davits and so I tow. Before RIBS I could deflate and stow in a lazarette for passage... but assembly and dis-assembly is a PITA. So I tow. I paint the bottom but it DOES require too frequent cleaning... and it helps to do this on a float where you have access to running water.

Highfield C310 stored on fore deck:










It has a small locker and a seat cushion with pouches for stowing things.










Paint flaked off and this means the tubes could become unattached since they are glued to paint.

Tug Locker 10 is aluminum but not painted. Locker is very large, comes with a cushion. I added two poles to assist boarding and deboarding post surgery. The poles are super handy! pun intended. Double floor is great... fuel hose runs in the "bilge".










Detail of the aluminum pole socket...










I removed the oars which store on the tubes and store them under the seat, held by straps or bungie chord. Well designed and detailed boat. Excellent value and the price is right!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have a walker bay. Really like feature that stern folds down as then when deflated. It’s very flat lashed down on the foredeck for passage. It’s 9 years old now. Never had chaps. We’re in Caribbean or New England.The handles fall off when reglued so stopped trying. No leaks. Took seats out so plenty of room. Next one will be hypalon again but an aluminum floor not glass and not Chinese.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Steve Bateman said:


> I see a lot of ribs overinflated here in the tropics which puts strain on every joint ! Problem is they inflate them to hard in the shade or the morning and when they get them out in the sun the air expands at an alarming rate. Check your pressure when its been in the sun a while if you want it to last...


This times 100^^^

In New England shoulder seasons, I expect to wake up in the 50 degree morning temps and see wrinkles. Low and behold, fully inflated when the sun comes out.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Our AB is a 2001 and is now 19 years old. It is still going strong, but we are in Maine and that, to me should be expected.. Our last inflatable, a PVC Zodiac, in the same State, lasted less than 2 years. Zodiac refused to stand behind their 5 year warranty. It took a lawyer friend to get them to finally honor their written warranty.

Our AB has never once leaked air, though in the spring, after sitting all winter, it may need a few pumps top top it back up. It is always stored inflated. While the exterior coating is getting thin in a few high wear spots I expect this RIB will go at least another 5-8 years. I have religiously treated it with with 303 Aerospace Protectant and it seems to do its job well.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Mark thanks for the informative post about different levels of fabric. Perhaps explains my experience.

I've got a Novarania we bought I think in 1997, over 20 years old. It sits in the water, admittedly in New England seasonally, no cover and the darn thing just won't die. It looks faded, but that's it. It's become sort of a workboat to use locally. Must be the process and fabric. It gets beat up in our use, not used carefully.

When we bought that we had a 52 foot boat and it fit. With a 38 now, I find it's a big of a sea anchor to tow. I'm looking for a lighter hard bottom, considering aluminum RIB. Anyone know who uses the "better" fabrics for these. Given my advanced age, if I buy right it's the last one .


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

T37Chef said:


> Haven't seen one (Highfield) in person yet... Hard to really tell in a video  The Aluminum floor models appear well designed and built, thanks for the input though.


We don't have an Aquapro dealer locally anymore, but I do see a lot of Highfields and they seem very similar to the Aquapro in terms of build quality. A friend has one with the aluminum hull, double floor and a small bow locker and it is still fairly light. Definitely high on my list for our next dinghy.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Right now I am leaning strongly toward the AB 9 UL. It's light, it will fit on my bow, and I like that AB also offers ready made chaps! 

I'm just trying to figure out how to deal with the $4500 (or Defender's $4045) price tag. Perhaps the September sale?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

eherlihy said:


> Right now I am leaning strongly toward the AB 9 UL. It's light, it will fit on my bow, and I like that AB also offers ready made chaps!
> 
> I'm just trying to figure out how to deal with the $4500 (or Defender's $4045) price tag. Perhaps the September sale?


I have the 10AL and really like it. While cost is going the wrong way from the UL model, I'd seriously consider it. The big difference is the flat floor. I dont' think it weighs much more. On the ultralight UL, you are standing on the inside of the hull. I have to believe that any interior water, whatsoever, will slosh around on your feet. The advantage of the UL, is less knee bend, while sitting up on the tube, as the bottom of the V hull is further away than a floor.

The forward compartment on the AL is also big enough to hold the fuel tank and run the hose under the flooring. First time I've had the fuel tank stowed away like that and it's pretty luxurious. I still fits two lifejackets and assorted bits (cable lock, oar locks, lights, etc).

I bought from Maritime Systems in Portsmouth, RI. They took my 12 year old dink, with two patches, in trade.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> Right now I am leaning strongly toward the AB 9 UL. It's light, it will fit on my bow, and I like that AB also offers ready made chaps!
> 
> I'm just trying to figure out how to deal with the $4500 (or Defender's $4045) price tag. Perhaps the September sale?


That's three times the price I paid for mine.
For that money I can by a new one every 5 years?


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> That's three times the price I paid for mine.
> For that money I can by a new one every 5 years?


That is 5.4 times what I paid for the current West Marine SB-275!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

eherlihy said:


> That is 5.4 times what I paid for the current West Marine SB-275!


That's good. It's 5.5 time better. Done deal.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> That's good. It's 5.5 time better. Done deal.


That's a fallacy and a smug answer

It doesn't hold more air in 7 years from now when I replace mine with brand new one 
It doesn't get you there faster
It requires more maintainence
It does not look as good as a new one

You pay twice as much for a dinghy and hold it 10 years or 15 years it's just an old dinghy and not better than a brand new dinghy. The fact that it may last longer doesn't mean anything if it's not important to you.
Mean while if I spend the same over those 15 years I get a new dinghy with no problems every 7 years.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

E, I'm sure you know I was kidding, while others may not have the cognitive ability. Nevertheless, there is no comparison between an aluminum hull RIB and the WM inflatable with a wooden floor. As long as one doesn't need to break it down all the time, I'll take the durability of the aluminum hull any day. We beach the dinghy often and even old fiberglass hulls took a beating. AL doesn't care.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

There are many considerations for a dink... and one of the main is "accommodation" for lack of a better word. This would apply to things like:
a dry ride in waves (large tubes really many a difference)
hypalon or PVC
Number of chambers
roll up floor, plywood floor, inflatable floor, RIB
hand holds well placed that stay on
oar storage location and quality (inside the tubes? on top/outside?) 
RIBS - w/ or w/o lifting rings
interior volume 
weight capacity (load/passengers/motor)
weight of boat
LOA
console? (larger LOAs)
motor HP capacity
will it plane or not
seat locations and type
hull material for RIBS... aluminum (painted or not) or GRP...
bow locker or not (very handy when large enough for gas tank)
single or double floor (double floor is easier to stand on, dry and w/ locker fuel hose is in between the floors)
reputation
price
warranty
Where you use?
always in water or not? (bottom paint not needed for boats only in water for use)

++++
If not stored in water will obviously offer benefits... no bottom paint... save time, money etc. But this means davits or a collapse and set up frequently (PITA). Davits are expensive and ugly. Lift out of the water on halyard is an option for storage no underway... but rarely used. RIBS need adequate deck space for storage underway (large fore decks/LOA of mother ship).

If you don't or can't get the dink out of the water underway, How does it tow? Any tow will scrub speed, a fouled one a lot of speed will be lost.

All buying decisions are a series of trade offs.... informed by experience.

My choice is the Tug Locker 10 (10').... about $2,500n PVC and About 3,500 Hypalon


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I've hesitated pointing this out because I realize so many people love the AB aluminum RIBs, but in the past few years they have had a very large problem with the aluminum/hypalon glue joins delaminating and not being able to be fixed. Our current boat came with an AB 10.5' aluminum RIB that was 2yrs old, and it was already delaminating and water was continually leaking into it. I've talked to countless people with these AB aluminum RIBs having the same issues, and a google search will bring up more. There is no good repair for it because once the aluminum is exposed and oxidized, it seems to not hold glue for any length of time. In the past, AB had this problem with their painted Al hulls, which made them switch to unpainted hulls. However, these too are having problems. YMMV.

Mark


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> There are many considerations for a dink... and one of the main is "accommodation" for lack of a better word. This would apply to things like:
> a dry ride in waves (large tubes really many a difference)
> hypalon or PVC
> Number of chambers
> ...


All good points except the statement that davits are ugly and expensive.

I guess solar panels, and wind generators are ugly also😃Most boats with davits when underway have the dinghy pulled up. no more unesthetic than either pulling a dinghy with engine or having it on the foredeck. There are some good davits that can be pulled out when not using. as far as expense, we installed our Garhauer davits ourselves and the cost. At the time they were $1100, now $1600.because of them we use our dinghy more, handle it easily, and can store it with a cover thus preserving its life. They also serve as a perfect place for a solar panel.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Good points... I designed what I call a solar arch... not really an arch but a structure for 3 panels... over the transom. It would also have block&tackle for raising the OB and I suppose it could carry the dink... I didn't explore that. It would give me watts... get the panels off the deck too. Towing is not ugly... but it's not desirable. I don't like the aesthetics of cockpit enclosures or davits on a sailboat. But I may get a bimini as they are removable and foldable.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

colemj said:


> I've hesitated pointing this out because I realize so many people love the AB aluminum RIBs, but in the past few years they have had a very large problem with the aluminum/hypalon glue joins delaminating and not being able to be fixed. Our current boat came with an AB 10.5' aluminum RIB that was 2yrs old, and it was already delaminating and water was continually leaking into it. I've talked to countless people with these AB aluminum RIBs having the same issues, and a google search will bring up more. There is no good repair for it because once the aluminum is exposed and oxidized, it seems to not hold glue for any length of time. In the past, AB had this problem with their painted Al hulls, which made them switch to unpainted hulls. However, these too are having problems. YMMV.
> 
> Mark


I've noted you pointing this out. 4th season here. Buddy has the exact same AB AL, neither delaminating. Time will tell. I do wonder if the identified over inflation is an issue, for the failures, especially in the tropics.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I would think any over inflation issues would be more prevalent in temperate climates than tropics. Temperature swings are the problem, and the tropics stay pretty constant. Once inflated in full tropic sun, they pretty much stay that way without large pressure differentials. Even if inflated in shade, the temperature swing in the sun is only 5F or so. Temperate climates could have one inflating in 70F and seeing 100F in the sun.

Besides, the majority of people I see have under-inflated dinghies. Many seem to think they should be more like cushions rather than solids.

Mark


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Yesterday I made the drive to Defender to see some boats in person. They are having a sale on Zodiacs, but I wasn't really interested. I spent most of my time looking at the AB and Achilles with aluminum hulls. The Achilles was painted and the AB was unpainted. I was surprised that the AB Ultralight (UL) does NOT have port and starboard "D-rings" for a bridle. It only has a single bow eye. The AB Superlight AL has D rings and the bow eye AND "D-rings." It was also $4730.

I inquired both by email and telephone of a nearby TUG/Highfield/AB dealer, because I had hoped to see a TUG. He had none in stock, and really didn't seem too enthused about them, but directed me to the Highfield. The Highfield model that I would be interested in was not in stock either, but would be arriving sometime in October. It seems that the Highfield is powder coated aluminum. After looking at their website and reading many of the comments here, I am not looking for a powder coated or painted aluminum hull. I never did get a price quote from that dealer, but I can see that the Highfield Classic 290 list price is ~$4200

That leaves TUG. Specifically the TUG 9 Locker. Yes, I know that they are made in China to Bixler Marine's specifications, but they seem to tick all my boxes;

9-10 feet LOA
CSM (Hypalon) tubes
Bare (unpainted) aluminum hull [Edited to add per the manufacturer - "Unpainted 3mm etched, brushed and polished no maintenance aluminum hull")
Port and starboard D-rings for a bridle
<130 lbs - so that my current 3.3 HP 2-stroke can adequately power it
Bow locker
Keel protector/rubstrake
It seems to have a flat floor in all the pictures (Perhaps @SanderO can confirm)
And they are for sale DIRECTLY from Bixler Marine for $3930! (under the $4k budget)

The fact that the importer sells directly to the public explains why the dealer that I spoke with seemed lukewarm on them, but this means that I would be dealing DIRECTLY with the manufacturer for warranty issues (AB's weak point).


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

A $4k boat with a 3.3 motor...just doesnt seem right


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

RegisteredUser said:


> A $4k boat with a 3.3 motor...just doesnt seem right


Hey, if it gets the job done...

The current ($750, inflatable keel) boat weighs 90 pounds. The proposed boat weighs 98 pounds. I expect that an aluminum hulled RIB will handle BETTER than a wood floor inflatable keel RIB despite the additional 9 lbs.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Achilles are also made in China, as are most of the Zodiacs in this range (and many, many others). IMO, the AB being made in Colombia isn't any better, and could be worse, than being made in China.

A tow ring welded to the hull is a much safer and robust attachment point than glued D-rings. If the boat doesn't have D-rings, pretty much all dealers are equipped to either attach these themselves or send it to a local place that can do it. Certainly, Defender can do it.

Mark


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

chef2sail said:


> All good points except the statement that davits are ugly and expensive.
> 
> I guess solar panels, and wind generators are ugly also😃Most boats with davits when underway have the dinghy pulled up. no more unesthetic than either pulling a dinghy with engine or having it on the foredeck. There are some good davits that can be pulled out when not using. as far as expense, we installed our Garhauer davits ourselves and the cost. At the time they were $1100, now $1600.because of them we use our dinghy more, handle it easily, and can store it with a cover thus preserving its life. They also serve as a perfect place for a solar panel.


Dingy on a davit also makes for great place to stow trash hahaha


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

T37Chef said:


> Dingy on a davit also makes for great place to stow trash hahaha


I thought I was the only one who did that on trips😄


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

colemj said:


> Achilles are also made in China, as are most of the Zodiacs in this range (and many, many others). IMO, the AB being made in Colombia isn't any better, and could be worse, than being made in China.
> 
> A tow ring welded to the hull is a much safer and robust attachment point than glued D-rings. If the boat doesn't have D-rings, pretty much all dealers are equipped to either attach these themselves or send it to a local place that can do it. Certainly, Defender can do it.
> 
> Mark


Agree about Columbia vs China for manufacturing. I could not really care less as long as the job is done correctly, and they stand behind it. I have read stories about AB that don't make me confident in their dealer network, making me believe that the warranty is almost useless.

Funny, but I pointed out to the salesman at Defender that the AB 9 UL on the floor had a defect on one of the curved pieces of aluminum where the transom meets the tube. He left me alone after that. 

Regarding the D-rings; I know that I or the dealer could attach them, but I prefer to have them attached in the factory under controlled conditions.

I have been towing my current dinghy for 10 years. The "bridle" that I use is actually a ½" line which is tied (using a bowline) around one side D-ring, the line then goes through the D-ring on the bow, goes about 5 feet forward of the boat, comes back 5 feet, goes back through the D-ring on the bow, and is then tied to the other side D-ring. I tied a half hitch on a bight to create a loop at the furthest point away from the boat to define a towing loop. Therefore any shock load while towing is spread across 3 D-rings. I have never had any problem - even on the RARE occasion when I would tow the dink with the 30lb outboard on it.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

eherlihy said:


> Regarding the D-rings; I know that I or the dealer could attach them, but I prefer to have them attached in the factory under controlled conditions.


I wasn't clear - I meant that most dealers either have the controlled conditions and experience to do this work to factory standard, or they have somebody local that does. Larger, higher-end RIBs get customized this way by dealers, not the factory.

Mark


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

You have more faith in dealers abilities than I do...


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> Yesterday I made the drive to Defender to see some boats in person. They are having a sale on Zodiacs, but I wasn't really interested. I spent most of my time looking at the AB and Achilles with aluminum hulls. The Achilles was painted and the AB was unpainted. I was surprised that the AB Ultralight (UL) does NOT have port and starboard "D-rings" for a bridle. It only has a single bow eye. The AB Superlight AL has D rings and the bow eye AND "D-rings." It was also $4730.
> 
> I inquired both by email and telephone of a nearby TUG/Highfield/AB dealer, because I had hoped to see a TUG. He had none in stock, and really didn't seem too enthused about them, but directed me to the Highfield. The Highfield model that I would be interested in was not in stock either, but would be arriving sometime in October. It seems that the Highfield is powder coated aluminum. After looking at their website and reading many of the comments here, I am not looking for a powder coated or painted aluminum hull. I never did get a price quote from that dealer, but I can see that the Highfield Classic 290 list price is ~$4200
> 
> ...


Tug Locker is a great dink.... best I have had... Get hypalon. There are dealers in FL... The dealer in Essex is not responsive. The ONLY thing I don't care for are the strap hand holds. But that's the least important thing.

I added two poles to aid boarding the dink after I had back surgery. These were simple to do... and work really well... and are a better hand hold when sitting on the tubes. They can be removed as the poles are set into "sockets". Got the square and round tubes from McMaster along with the ss hardware including pol tips.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

colemj said:


> Achilles are also made in China, as are most of the Zodiacs in this range (and many, many others). IMO, the AB being made in Colombia isn't any better, and could be worse, than being made in China.
> 
> A tow ring welded to the hull is a much safer and robust attachment point than glued D-rings. If the boat doesn't have D-rings, pretty much all dealers are equipped to either attach these themselves or send it to a local place that can do it. Certainly, Defender can do it.
> 
> Mark


Our Aquapro has a center ring on the hull as well as the D-rings on the tubes. We always to our dinghy and using a bridle on the D-rings makes the dinghy track far better. If we tow from the hull attachment it hunts all over the place. After 10 years the D-rings are holding up just fine. 
That said, we always take the engine off for towing to minimize drag, so loads on the D-rings are minimal.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

As for towing, I understand the bridle on D-rings because on a previous boat we would tow that way. However, only in very protected waters, and only for short distances in daylight. If you have a hull attachment point, I urge you to at least keep a safety line on it. I can't count how many dinghies people we know have lost because they were towing by D-rings that let go. Every season, the Bahama nets are full of people asking after their lost towed dinghies. The other day a post in the local facebook page was looking for their dinghy same reason: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...5&set=gm.888332858331930&type=3&theater&ifg=1. Dinghies lost towing are extremely common.

If it were mine, I'd tow by the hull attachment, with a steadying bridle to the D-rings - a 3-point attachment with the hull point taking the primary load.

Mark


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Do not use screw driver to collect ear wax


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Tug Locker is a great dink.... best I have had... Get hypalon. There are dealers in FL... The dealer in Essex is not responsive.


Is there any reason to go through a dealer instead of buying direct? My experience is that the dealers try to steer me toward what they have in stock vs. what I came in to buy.

Also, can you confirm that there is a flat (horizontal) floor?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Just a thought..
Unless you plan to motor-up, getting a dink that will haul butt, being1st to that reef 
, id be looking arounf $2k.ish
Not knocking you..just dont understand your reasoning
Sounds like you are sold/fixed on this


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> As for towing, I understand the bridle on D-rings because on a previous boat we would tow that way. However, only in very protected waters, and only for short distances in daylight. If you have a hull attachment point, I urge you to at least keep a safety line on it. I can't count how many dinghies people we know have lost because they were towing by D-rings that let go. Every season, the Bahama nets are full of people asking after their lost towed dinghies. The other day a post in the local facebook page was looking for their dinghy same reason: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...5&set=gm.888332858331930&type=3&theater&ifg=1. Dinghies lost towing are extremely common.
> 
> If it were mine, I'd tow by the hull attachment, with a steadying bridle to the D-rings - a 3-point attachment with the hull point taking the primary load.
> 
> Mark


I tow without the motor... using a Davis towing bridle which is attached to 2 lines and cleated to port and starboard stern cleats. The dink bow line which is attached to the towing plate on the alum hull is a security line and looser than the towing lines. I can "trim" the dink to get it to ride where I want with 2 towing lines.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Regarding overinflation, are overinflation safety valves totally worthless? My $600 Chinese PVC dinghy has one, with equalization bladders between the three tubes. I try not to rely on the overinflation valve, but would hope it would release if temperature transients caused pressure to exceed the spec (3.1 psi IIRC).

My inflatable bottom dinghy looks pretty much new after 3 years, with no hint of adhesive failure or weakening of the handles or the D-ring lifting points which are critical for my forward davit harness. I apply 303 once a year and tent a cover over my davits. The cover ripped a couple weeks ago due to weakening from UV exposure, but I replaced it quickly.

I debated PVC vs. Hypalon, but heard of so many adhesive failures with Hypalon that I decided to go with a low cost (but nicely designed) PVC one this time around. A dinghy is only as good as the adhesive, and it’s awfully tough to tell how adhesive will hold up aside from manufacturer’s reputation. And even that can change over time.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> Regarding overinflation, are overinflation safety valves totally worthless? My $600 Chinese PVC dinghy has one, with equalization bladders between the three tubes. I try not to rely on the overinflation valve, but would hope it would release if temperature transients caused pressure to exceed the spec (3.1 psi IIRC).
> 
> My inflatable bottom dinghy looks pretty much new after 3 years, with no hint of adhesive failure or weakening of the handles or the D-ring lifting points which are critical for my forward davit harness. I apply 303 once a year and tent a cover over my davits. The cover ripped a couple weeks ago due to weakening from UV exposure, but I replaced it quickly.
> 
> I debated PVC vs. Hypalon, but heard of so many adhesive failures with Hypalon that I decided to go with a low cost (but nicely designed) PVC one this time around. A dinghy is only as good as the adhesive, and it's awfully tough to tell how adhesive will hold up aside from manufacturer's reputation. And even that can change over time.


which kind do you have again?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

The amount of years a dinghy lasts is important but the relevant data Should also include, how often is it used.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> which kind do you have again?











INMAR 270H-TS (9' 0'') Air Floor Tender Series Inflatable Boat


INMAR has the finest lightweight inflatable boats. GREAT PRICE AND SUPERIOR QUALITY. Have some fun with your family and friends cruising around in your INMAR inflatable boat.



www.inmarboats.com


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Tog has double floor... flat with a bilge space over the v hull. Floor has Treadmaster applied for non skid. I have a Guzzler pump mounted on the transom to de water the dink.

If you do get one and use a gas tank in the locker.... put a section of hose over the gas line where it passes from the bilge into the locker. Then spray foam to seal the "conduit". Make the conduit long enough to be higher than a really drenched dink... Then the locker will remain completely dry.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

eherlihy said:


> <130 lbs - so that my current 3.3 HP 2-stroke can adequately power it


I wonder if it's just a matter of weight, or whether the v shaped AL hull might cause more drag. Is your current wood floor hull closer to flat?

I fully appreciate that most, including us, only putt along at a few knots to get to the dinghy dock. Our 9.9 on the AB 10AL is more than adequate. I got this motor specifically because it was light (previous motor was 18hp). However, when I want to get up and go, to cover miles, it's borderline.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

You know what I really dislike about pretty much all small dingy/tenders... No navigation lighting. Not until you get to a console type tender do they consider them probably because they have to. I despise the fact none of the manufacturers offer even an option for even a battery operated LED bow and stern light...

There... How's that for thread drift? Ha


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

T37Chef said:


> You know what I really dislike about pretty much all small dingy/tenders... No navigation lighting. Not until you get to a console type tender do they consider them probably because they have to. I despise the fact none of the manufacturers offer even an option for even a battery operated LED bow and stern light...
> 
> There... How's that for thread drift? Ha


I already have these;
(Hmmm... can't post an image link) NAVISAFE | Navisafe Dinghy Complete


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Navisafe lights work great for me.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I have a way too heavy 4 stroke 8hp for the 10' alum RIB. I can plane but rarely need to do it for the distances I use the boat. I would be fine with a 6hp... I have the Garhauer lifting hoist so it's not terrible getting in on and off the dink. I would like to have a small electric with a solar panel which would do most of the coming and going between boat and dock.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

A TUG Locker 9 is on order. I will see if I need to upgrade from my Mercury 3.3 (I doubt it) after I get it in the water.

I have a friend with a Walker Bay 11' inflatable with a high pressure floor. He's a big guy (at least 230lbs). He just bought a new-to-him Mercury 3.3 and we tried it on his dinghy yesterday (inaugural splash). It worked fine!


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

And two days after the order was placed, I received an email from Bixler's Marine telling me that "We are presently sold out of all of our TUG inventory. We won't be restocking until later this year or early next year."


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

That does not seen right. Only $1000 difference.

But I would get a PVC if in the NE doing the sailing routine there. I have a PVC now I got in Florida after my Coastral blew apart, but I made chaps for it and expect that to be a big plus.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

eherlihy said:


> A TUG Locker 9 is on order. I will see if I need to upgrade from my Mercury 3.3 (I doubt it) after I get it in the water.
> 
> I have a friend with a Walker Bay 11' inflatable with a high pressure floor. He's a big guy (at least 230lbs). He just bought a new-to-him Mercury 3.3 and we tried it on his dinghy yesterday (inaugural splash). It worked fine!


There is no doubt the 3.3 will push the dinghy along. I barely open the throttle on my 9.9 to shuttle to the dinghy dock, via a no wake zone. The 3.3 might just need a bit more twist, but will move the dink. Getting somewhere fast is likely another story.

Sorry to hear about the inventory problem. Frustrating, I'm sure.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> There is no doubt the 3.3 will push the dinghy along. I barely open the throttle on my 9.9 to shuttle to the dinghy dock, via a no wake zone. The 3.3 might just need a bit more twist, but will move the dink. Getting somewhere fast is likely another story.
> 
> Sorry to hear about the inventory problem. Frustrating, I'm sure.


None of the local dealers have what I want... Except the AB at Defender... But, $4700 is NOT happening.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

T37Chef said:


> You know what I really dislike about pretty much all small dingy/tenders... No navigation lighting. Not until you get to a console type tender do they consider them probably because they have to. I despise the fact none of the manufacturers offer even an option for even a battery operated LED bow and stern light...
> 
> There... How's that for thread drift? Ha


Drift away....I agree. You are forced to attach a stern pole to the transom and a stick on r/g on the bow


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Then you get something much less expensive, even if used, and just take you chances and replace more often. It is pretty much a given that a "better" "higher quality" "much more expensive" dink may not last longer. The ony part that is a given is that it is "much more expensive".


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Drift away....I agree. You are forced to attach a stern pole to the transom and a stick on r/g on the bow


I pop an all around on top my OB


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Don L said:


> Then you get something much less expensive, even if used, and just take you chances and replace more often. It is pretty much a given that a "better" "higher quality" "much more expensive" dink may not last longer. The ony part that is a given is that it is "much more expensive".


<sigh> Patch & pump regularly is my plan B. Hopefully, if the pandemic ever subsides, there will be a boat show that I can attend and buy a RIB in the next year.

I suspect that dealer inventory is low because of the current political conflict is impacting trade between the US and China.

I had also looked into Inmar inflatables (formerly JP Marine), which are made in the US, but their reputation is horrible.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> <sigh> Patch & pump regularly is my plan B. Hopefully, if the pandemic ever subsides, there will be a boat show that I can attend and buy a RIB in the next year.
> 
> I suspect that dealer inventory is low because of the current political conflict is impacting trade between the US and China.
> 
> I had also looked into Inmar inflatables (formerly JP Marine), which are made in the US, but their reputation is horrible.


You're probably correct and no one was replenishing inventory for a industry struggling to get into first gear. Keep looking. Consider the Locker 10... these are really nice and well made boats.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Have you given Maritime Solutions a call? They carry a half dozen different brands.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Have you given Maritime Solutions a call? They carry a half dozen different brands.


That is the company to which I was trying to obliquely refer in post 37.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

One of those kiwi boats with welded valmex is starting to sound like sweet deal


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Have you given Maritime Solutions a call? They carry a half dozen different brands.


Miles is not the easiest fellow to deal with.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> Miles is not the easiest fellow to deal with.


I bought my AB from the owner, Dave, at the New England boat show. He's a little dry, but certainly didn't have any trouble.

I had to go back to look at E's post #37, which only said they didn't have the TUG and he preferred the Highfield. Not the worst advice, I've heard many that like Highfields. Sounds like they cost more, but I doubt the dealer makes notably more. The issue sounds like the dealers can't get the TUGs. China did shut down, just like we did. Some say more aggressively. No idea if that affected their factory.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I bought my AB from the owner, Dave, at the New England boat show. He's a little dry, but certainly didn't have any trouble.
> 
> I had to go back to look at E's post #37, which only said they didn't have the TUG and he preferred the Highfield. Not the worst advice, I've heard many that like Highfields. Sounds like they cost more, but I doubt the dealer makes notably more. The issue sounds like the dealers can't get the TUGs. China did shut down, just like we did. Some say more aggressively. No idea if that affected their factory.


I bought the Highfield from them and the paint came off. They know it. And then when I wanted an alum hull with no paint they sold me the Tug. I was back there too many times to not know what they are like. I won't go into more detail.


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## 227702 (Oct 23, 2013)

eherlihy said:


> .....I had also looked into Inmar inflatables (formerly JP Marine), which are made in the US, but their reputation is horrible.


I read the same reviews and bought an aluminum bottomed RIB from them anyways on clearance about a year ago. Less than $2K for the 8'6" model in Orca Hypalon (215). Maybe I'm just lucky, but I couldn't be happier. Time will tell, as always.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

bajasurfer said:


> I read the same reviews and bought an aluminum bottomed RIB from them anyways on clearance about a year ago. Less than $2K for the 8'6" model in Orca Hypalon (215). Maybe I'm just lucky, but I couldn't be happier. Time will tell, as always.


I've had very good luck with my Inmar PVC inflatable bottom dinghy. It was an impulse buy at the 2017 boat show (end of season), about $600. I had never heard of Inmar so didn't see any reviews. All I knew is that it had real nice design features like padded aluminum bench seats (two of them, impressive for a 9' dinghy) and lots of well-placed handles and towing/lifting points.

I'm in my third season of actual use (no use in 2017). My sacrificial boat cover (purchased directly from Inmar) had to be replaced a couple weeks ago, but that's the purpose of a cover. The boat that's under it is still almost pristine. Adhesive joints seem to be holding well everywhere. It does not get the kind of use/abuse a tropical cruiser would give it, but it still sits on the davits (under the cover) from April-October, so is subjected to secondary reflected sunlight, thermal cycling, and stressing at the lifting points.

I had assumed that it was made in China, but from the HIN (IMG2..., no CN- prefix) it appears that it is US made (almost certainly from Asian materials).


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## 227702 (Oct 23, 2013)

Oops, CORRECTION:
I was incorrect regarding the Orca Hypalon type for the Inmar 260R-AL... it's not 215, but 820.


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## Steve Bateman (Aug 10, 2016)

colemj said:


> I would think any over inflation issues would be more prevalent in temperate climates than tropics. Temperature swings are the problem, and the tropics stay pretty constant. Once inflated in full tropic sun, they pretty much stay that way without large pressure differentials. Even if inflated in shade, the temperature swing in the sun is only 5F or so. Temperate climates could have one inflating in 70F and seeing 100F in the sun.
> 
> Besides, the majority of people I see have under-inflated dinghies. Many seem to think they should be more like cushions rather than solids.
> 
> Mark


I live in the tropics and my dink goes from soggy in the morning to rock hard in the afternoon sun ! Air temperature in the chambers varies greatly !


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

It's my understanding that welded spanks glued
Doesn't take common pressure changes on the chin


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Welded only available on PVC. Hypalon has to be glued.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Steve Bateman said:


> I live in the tropics and my dink goes from soggy in the morning to rock hard in the afternoon sun ! Air temperature in the chambers varies greatly !


Where we are, it is 80F at night and 90F during the day. Ours goes from slightly springy to rock hard in the afternoon sun, but we never need to let out or put in air to compensate. I just realized that we inflated ours when we first got it 3yrs ago, and have never added or subtracted air since. I should probably figure out where I put that pump...

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I suspect direct sunlight affects the temp of the tubes and therefore the pressure, not just air temps.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I had decided on a TUG Locker. I placed an order in the summer, but Bixler's Marine cancelled my order. I was told that they were out of stock, and none was expected until October. In December, I checked Bixler's website, and they were still out of stock. Just checked again today, and they are _still_ out.

I guess that I'll be looking at an Achilles.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Shortly after I arrived in Fort Myers, I have found a slip that has a reasonable monthly rate, so the dinghy has been kept in my garage out of the UV. I have to say that Bixler's Toob-Seal has held up terrifically! The patch that I applied over a year ago is holding and there have been NO leaks and the dinghy has lost no air since I applied the Toob-Seal. That said, the dinghy is not going to last much more than this winter.

I have thought long and hard on the dinghy options, and I am currently planning to buy an Achillies SPD-310E after I return to RI in the spring. Reasons: more LOA than my SB-275, Hypalon/Orca material, Fold up aluminum floor (so that I can put it in the trunk of my 2001 Toyota Avalon). Currently $2900 from Defender.

In the interim, I am trying an experiment that you might be interested in: When I bought my SB-275 I also bought a numbering kit from https://www.boatnumberplate.com/. I have to say that I am GREATLY disappointed in how the number plate has not held up. I followed the instructions and applied the boat numbers when the SB-275 was new, and they peeled off after about 4 years of use. I then used 2-part PCV glue to try and stick the numbers back on, and they have continued to peel off (the glue sticks to the tubes, but not the number plate). The BEST way that I have found to stick the numbers to the hull of the PVC dinghy was to use blue painter's tape to tape the numberplate on the boat - it has held up for over 2 years! - but that's not the experiment. I used one of the numberplates as a template, and have used it to apply ink from a sharpie on one side of the bow, and I painted the other side with Flex-Seal Liquid (black). Once the Flex-Seal is dry (it takes 48 hours) I will spray both with 303 protectant, and see which holds up longer.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

the name plates don't remain adhered. Perhaps the vinyl graphics used for boat names?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I have a small puncture in the PVC. I believe the boat came with a repair kit. I also have the repair kits for the now gone hypalon RIBS.
When doing a repair... the glue for the two materials is different? Does this mean that you cannot apply a hypalon patch to PVC or a PVC to a hypalon boat? Does anyone know how the glue interacts with the fabric? I always thought they were "contact" adhesives.... but it must be more complex than that.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

SanderO said:


> the name plates don't remain adhered. Perhaps the vinyl graphics used for boat names?


The vinyl graphics used for boat names (I have applied several of these for myself and clients) would not work on a dinghy. They need to be applied to a smooth surface, and the surface of the RIB has some texture from the integral fabric in the PVC or Hypalon. I also believe that if they could adhere, that the vinyl would crack when the dinghy tube is deflated.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

SanderO said:


> I have a small puncture in the PVC. I believe the boat came with a repair kit. I also have the repair kits for the now gone hypalon RIBS.
> When doing a repair... the glue for the two materials is different? Does this mean that you cannot apply a hypalon patch to PVC or a PVC to a hypalon boat? Does anyone know how the glue interacts with the fabric? I always thought they were "contact" adhesives.... but it must be more complex than that.


The repair kit that I applied to the PVC dinghy three years ago was a two part contact adhesive. If memory serves; you clean the surface of the tube with acetone and rough the surface with sandpaper to give it some "tooth." Then mix the two parts and apply the mix to both the tube and the patch, and let dry. You apply another coat to each surface, let dry, and then stick the patch to the tube. BTW - I used the same glue and technique on the boat numberplate with poor results. The patch has held structurally, but I believe that air was able to slip past it somewhere. The air loss was addressed by Bixler's Toob-Seal.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> The vinyl graphics used for boat names (I have applied several of these for myself and clients) would not work on a dinghy. They need to be applied to a smooth surface, and the surface of the RIB has some texture from the integral fabric in the PVC or Hypalon. I also believe that if they could adhere, that the vinyl would crack when the dinghy tube is deflated.


They do adhere and they do crack and not last terribly long.









This was fairly new and you can see the plaque already beginning to peel at the lower left and the cracks in the vinyl letters,


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I put registration numbers on an old Avon hypalon dinghy with vinyl lettering and it held up pretty well. I was always gentle when cleaning it. I assumed I was going to need to replace them, but I traded the dinghy in, after about 6 years like that. 

I currently have the boat number plate that E mentions above. Mine adhered just fine. Can't recall exactly what I used, but it was one part. Masked the area, scuffed both the tube and the back of the number board, applied adhesive to both and waited some designated amount of time for it to tack up. I just think they don't look very good and are near impossible to replace, if I trade this one in.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Just to be clear, my experiment is that I am using Liquid Flex-Seal as paint for the registration numbers. I painted them on yesterday, and IMHO look pretty good!


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## WinterRiver (Oct 20, 2006)

Color in the registration numbers with a sharpie is on my spring commissioning list most years. It doesn't take long.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

My job is leading R&D programs to develop next-generation high performance labeling solutions. The marine environment is extremely demanding with temperature extremes, moisture, salt, gasoline, and substrates that will stretch with sunlight and heat. I'll make some comments below.


eherlihy said:


> When I bought my SB-275 I also bought a numbering kit from REGISTRATION NUMBERS FOR BOATS - Home. I have to say that I am GREATLY disappointed in how the number plate has not held up. I followed the instructions and applied the boat numbers when the SB-275 was new, and they peeled off after about 4 years of use. I then used 2-part PCV glue to try and stick the numbers back on, and they have continued to peel off (the glue sticks to the tubes, but not the number plate).


I discovered that website a few years ago, and have been curious how their product holds up. I'm not surprised to see it delaminating. It seems to be a rigid "plate", which is always going to delaminate when adhered to a tubular shape that flexes and stretches due to heat/sunlight. What is needed is a flexible film that can deform and stretch with the PVC/Hypalon substrate.


SanderO said:


> the name plates don't remain adhered. Perhaps the vinyl graphics used for boat names?


Yes, flexible vinyl graphics like used for boat names are probably the best solution, though not perfect.


eherlihy said:


> The vinyl graphics used for boat names (I have applied several of these for myself and clients) would not work on a dinghy. They need to be applied to a smooth surface, and the surface of the RIB has some texture from the integral fabric in the PVC or Hypalon. I also believe that if they could adhere, that the vinyl would crack when the dinghy tube is deflated.


The acrylic adhesives on my company's flexible PVC product stick just fine to my PVC dinghy, and have not delaminated at all. Prior to applying it, I did mask off the area and cleaned off residual wax and plasticizer with acetone followed by mild scuffing with a 3M pad. The 4 mil thick PVC film (which has a pre-applied acrylic adhesive under a release liner) adhered just fine. After application in sunlight (which nicely softened the label material), you could even see the texture through the vinyl, which is a good sign that the vinyl is flexible and stretchy enough to conform well to the surface.


SanderO said:


> They do adhere and they do crack and not last terribly long.


I have experienced no cracking on my dinghy after three seasons.

The label is not perfect. I deflate the dinghy during the off-season for storage, and after I deflated it for the first time, the label developed some wrinkles as the dinghy tubes shrunk. After re-inflating it the next spring, the wrinkles did not go away, probably because of adhesive-adhesive contact under the wrinkle. But the label was still perfectly legible, and not delaminating at all, and it is perfectly legible from 10 feet away. So I would rate it as satisfactory, but not perfect. It's just a boat number, so that's good enough.

The key difference here is that a flexible film will conform to the curvature of the tubes, which allows it to continue adhering. A rigid plastic, like the one eherlihy purchased, will almost certainly delaminate as the dinghy tube pulls away along the top and bottom of the plate, and as water works its way into the ever-expanding delamination zone.

Here's a picture of my label right after application:










Here's a picture from last season (third season after application). If you look closely, you can see the wrinkle in the label. However, it is perfectly acceptable and fully USCG compliant:


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

When I had put vinyl numbers on my old hypalon dinghy, I had them made on a sheet, just like it was a boat name. Each alphanumeric character was it's own label. They were applied the same as a boat name, on a single sheet that you "barn doored" from a taped hinge to line everything up. When you pulled away the top layer, only the individual characters remained. Never wrinkled, never cracked or peeled. I was pleasantly surprised. I never fully deflated the dinghy, but it would go notably soft over the winter. Too soft to use, so it did take some flexing. Surface prep is no doubt critical.

On my next dinghy, I plan to give this a shot again.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I am wondering if one could use a stencil of the reg numbers and spray or paint over it...I think FlexSeal makes a spray and that might work, Maybe even other Krylon paints. The problem would be to get a stencil of the entire reg number and not use individual stencils.

Another approach is to use stick on vinyl letters... tape a border around it and spray the entire thing... with FlexSeal or paint... then peel off the letters and the border mask... and you are left with the letters/numbers as the inflatable boat material... and the "plaque" the flexseal frame.

Use inexpensive letters like this which can easily be peeled off.



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006ICKG/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> When I had put vinyl numbers on my old hypalon dinghy, I had them made on a sheet, just like it was a boat name. Each alphanumeric character was it's own label. They were applied the same as a boat name, on a single sheet that you "barn doored" from a taped hinge to line everything up. When you pulled away the top layer, only the individual characters remained. Never wrinkled, never cracked or peeled. I was pleasantly surprised.


I'm glad this worked out for you. On my prior dinghy I tried individual letters (similar to what SanderO linked) and experienced an unacceptable level of edge peel. The issue with individual letters is that there is a lot of edge exposure and small area of adhesion, so the smallest amount of water intrusion underneath the textured substrate can cause complete delamination of the letter. My guess is that it's hit and miss based on manufacturer. If you happen to buy lettering that has the right adhesive and are able to prep the surface correctly, it's probably OK, as you experienced. But due to my own experience (and the ready availability of my company's printers, which I wanted to learn to use), I decided that a rectangular sheet would give me a whole lot of area for adhesion with less opportunity for edge peel. And I could mask off and rough up a relatively large area that would be fully covered by the rectangular sheet.

There are many ways to solve this problem. I do believe that a professionally printed (or laser cut) and properly adhered flexible vinyl label/letter will look better and outlast any painted-on solution.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

@TakeFive identifies the problem.... "edge peel"...whether it is single plaque or individual numbers/letters.

Therefore after trying the usual solutions which fail from cracking and or edge peel I have concluded the the best approach is a stencil. with spray paint.

I will do the following:

order 3" adhesive backed letters and stick them to the inflated tubes... but not use a lot of pressure (no breyer)
mask out a frame with blue tape. Spray the paint..color of your liking... black, white, red...even textured... peel off the letters and remove the blue masking tape. You are left with a color field with letters which are the material of the tubes... vinyl or hypalon or whatever dink is made from (works for hard dinks too)

This will not peel... and can be "renewed" by re masking and sticking new letters on, painting and remove the masking and the letters. I suppose abrasion over time will wear off the paint of the field... so a newing will have to take place at some time,


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

In addition to the peeling of the BoatNumberPlate placard, the damn thing discolored from UV in the "scorching" RI sun;








You can see a difference in discoloration where the blue painter's tape held the placard to the tube for two years.

So far, the painted on Flex Seal Liquid looks great!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

SanderO said:


> @TakeFive identifies the problem.... "edge peel"...whether it is single plaque or individual numbers/letters.
> 
> Therefore after trying the usual solutions which fail from cracking and or edge peel I have concluded the the best approach is a stencil. with spray paint.
> 
> ...


Wow, that's a lot of effort. Note that some shades of gray used on dinghies might not give very good contrast for lettering against a colored field.

Just to clarify, I chose a 4" wide thermal printed rectangular PVC adhesive film because of edge peel issues that I had experienced with stick-on letters with my prior dinghy. I thought that if there was edge peel, it would only affect the 1/2" margin and leave the printed part of the label intact. However, in actual use, I have experienced absolutely no edge peel at all. Also no cracking. The only issue was a little wrinkling which can barely be seen from over 10' away.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> Wow, that's a lot of effort. Note that some shades of gray used on dinghies might not give very good contrast for lettering against a colored field.
> 
> Just to clarify, I chose a 4" wide thermal printed rectangular PVC adhesive film because of edge peel issues that I had experienced with stick-on letters with my prior dinghy. I thought that if there was edge peel, it would only affect the 1/2" margin and leave the printed part of the label intact. However, in actual use, I have experienced absolutely no edge peel at all. Also no cracking. The only issue was a little wrinkling which can barely be seen from over 10' away.


I think you do one understand... the "stick on vinyl letters" are removed AFTER spray painting... so the reg numbers are UNPAINTED ... showing through the painted border/mask

Time to do this
clean hull - 2 min
rule on line - 5 min
stick on letters - 5 min
tape border - 5 min
spray paint - 5 min
remove letters and masking tape - 5 minutes

Less than 1/2 hr per side


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

It could look like this:
All black paint except the state sticker (red)


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

SanderO said:


> I think you do one understand... the "stick on vinyl letters" are removed AFTER spray painting... so the reg numbers are UNPAINTED ... showing through the painted border/mask
> 
> Time to do this
> clean hull - 2 min
> ...


I understood what you meant. When done, post pics and an update on actual time spent.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> I understood what you meant. When done, post pics and an update on actual time spent.


I will do... Not a high priority... so I will wait for a day with no wind... remove the old/clean and then measure, apply mask and spray. I will order the letters so I am ready to go. Probably use semi gloss or satin black or dark gray...


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I have chaps on my dink and used a stencil and paint. That has lasted 1.5 years of sun now without having to touch it up. On the dink itself I just went the sharpie route nand redo it every few months.

I definitely would not spend money on anything that depended on sticking to the dink. Since the stickers the State make me apply don't stay why would I expect something else to?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I may stick the state reg sticker in the inside to the transom which is metal....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Once I started to tape a piece of plastic bag over the registration sticker, when washing the dink, it stopped peeling off. The soaps, especially the more effective ones for dinghy fabric, dissolve the glue.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Update: I purchased a new Achilles SPD-310E at Defender's Warehouse sale. It is scheduled to be delivered to my Florida home by UPS tomorrow.
Reasons:

I want the ability to move the dink in my automobile (2001 Toyota Avalon). - The Achilles SPD-310E has an aluminum paneled floor and folds up into a 4' x 2' x 1' box
I wanted a dink that would survive the Florida or Carib sun as necessary. - The Achilles SPD-310E is Hypalon/Orca
I wanted a dink as large as I could fit on my foredeck. I _think _that the Achilles SPD-310E will fit. I'll find out tomorrow.
I want a dink that I can manage - The Achilles SPD-310E comes in at 110lbs, which is heavier than I want, but I think I can manage it. The SPD 290E weighs 106lbs (4 pound difference!). My current PVC dink weighs ~70lbs.
Achilles has a terrific reputation.
The Defender sale made the price acceptable to The Admiral - who paid for it! 
Once registered I will stencil the new state numbers with Flex-Seal Liquid.

IF there is interest, I will post pics.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> Update: I purchased a new Achilles SPD-310E at Defender's Warehouse sale. It is scheduled to be delivered to my Florida home by UPS tomorrow.
> Reasons:
> 
> I want the ability to move the dink in my automobile (2001 Toyota Avalon). - The Achilles SPD-310E has an aluminum paneled floor and folds up into a 4' x 2' x 1' box
> ...


Looks like a good fit for your needs. I will say that I love the seat/locker and double floor on the Tug Locker10 RIB. But this is not a boat for my deck... except for maybe winter storage.

Another issue I find is the the bottom gets terribly fouled because the dink is in the water all of the time. No davits.
And of course the ideal situation is to have a dock for it so get to the moored or anchored boat,
I am thinking this year it will be hoisted out along side and launched when we are aboard and using the dink... limiting the time the bottom is in the water. The boat's bottom is a PITA to clean because of its weight and just finding a place with water which permits bottom cleaning. And of course I have to tow because I can't stow,

+++++

I wish one could have an inflatable configured to spec. For example:
solid hand holds at bow and two on each side
double floor system
large diameter tubes
oars that break down and can be stowed under the aft seat
oars with hardware attached that fit into solid block 
locker which "drops Into" bow for a seat and stowage
robust solid tow rings / eyes

4 in-board lifting ring/eyes


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> I wish one could have an inflatable configured to spec. For example:
> solid hand holds at bow and two on each side
> double floor system
> large diameter tubes
> ...


I don't think these are that that tough to find. Our aluminum AB has most on your list. The Oars telescope smaller, rather than break down. They are held against the tubes, down by the floor, so completely out of the way. I never understand the models that want to mount them where we sit on the tubes. The extra bow handle can be easily added. I think everything else is there standard.

For dinghies that are permanently in the water, bottom paint isn't a bad idea.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

eherlihy said:


> I purchased a new Achilles SPD-310E at Defender's Warehouse sale. It is scheduled to be delivered to my Florida home by UPS tomorrow.


Congrats on the new dink! I'm impressed by Defenders shipping during their warehouse sale. Recollection is shipping took a serious lag in the past, during and just after the sale. Perhaps, because it's solely online this year, they increased that capacity.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Regarding the TUG brand: I believe that these are made in China to spec for Bixler's Marine. I had ordered one last year but was told that they were out of stock. The last time that I checked, about a month ago, they were _still _out of stock! (see TUG Locker Series - Inflatable Boat Parts)

I suspect that they are no longer available as a consequence of the breakdown in relations between the US and China.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I don't think these are that that tough to find. Our aluminum AB has most on your list. The Oars telescope smaller, rather than break down. They are held against the tubes, down by the floor, so completely out of the way. I never understand the models that want to mount them where we sit on the tubes. The extra bow handle can be easily added. I think everything else is there standard.
> 
> For dinghies that are permanently in the water, bottom paint isn't a bad idea.


I am strap averse... and rope hand hold averse.
I want the oars completely out of the way,...not mounted on tubes

BTW...
FREE for anyone who wants:

an Avon yellow fiberglass dinghy seat..
3 gallon Yamaha gas tank and hose
wood oars - break down, needs to be varnished


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> I am strap averse... and rope hand hold averse.
> I want the oars completely out of the way,...not mounted on tubes


I don't like rope holds much either, unless they are really taught. Can't say I recall ever seeing a standard solid grab rail on an inflatable. I guess I have seen manual two handles on the front. It's usually straps and the more the merrier. Although, anything can be glued down.

I consider our oars to be completely out of the way, underneath the curvature of the large side tubes. Cool, if that's not enough for your desire, but they don't interfere with anything I've ever encountered. Ironically, I find having a seat installed to cause the most interference. Some leave the oar locks attached, but I prefer to remove them and stow in the locker. I've never needed to actually use them (knock on wood).


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I don't like rope holds much either, unless they are really taught. Can't say I recall ever seeing a standard solid grab rail on an inflatable. I guess I have seen manual two handles on the front. It's usually straps and the more the merrier. Although, anything can be glued down.
> 
> I consider our oars to be completely out of the way, underneath the curvature of the large side tubes. Cool, if that's not enough for your desire, but they don't interfere with anything I've ever encountered. Ironically, I find having a seat installed to cause the most interference. Some leave the oar locks attached, but I prefer to remove them and stow in the locker. I've never needed to actually use them (knock on wood).


all solid hand holds


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> all solid hand holds
> 
> View attachment 138886


V8 moment. Straps are common, of course, as they can be on top of the tube and you can still sit on them. 
These holds, being on the outside, wouldn't do it for me. I'd rather be pulling down or inside. I take the seat out and it's attach point becomes a hand hold too.


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## jtsailjt (Aug 1, 2013)

Last year I bought an 11’8” aluminum hypalon RIB from North Atlantic Inflatables and I’ve been very happy with it so far. They import from China and sell directly to public. RIBs come in either PVC or Hypalon with the hypalon adding $1000 to the price. The roll up types with aluminum or slat floors only seem to come in PVC. Pricing seems. very competitive. I realize E already committed to Defender but for others looking for an inflatable it’s another option out there that I don’t think was mentioned earlier in the thread. He offers 5 year warrramties on both hypalon and PVC models.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> V8 moment. Straps are common, of course, as they can be on top of the tube and you can still sit on them.
> These holds, being on the outside, wouldn't do it for me. I'd rather be pulling down or inside. I take the seat out and it's attach point becomes a hand hold too.


This was a good design except it lacked a locker... but AquaPro had paint adhering problems... I believe they move manufacture from AU to China.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

OOoops! I've been remiss. I intended to post a pic of the new dink once I received it (6 months ago), but I forgot!

My final decision was to purchase was an Achilles SPD 310 from Defender. Reasons: it has an aluminum floor, it folds up into a 3' x 2' x 1' package, it can hold 4 adults, it is hypalon and can therefore handle UV exposure, it cost <$3K.

Here it is:



























Thanks to all that helped me make this decision.


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