# Dufour 38 - anyone have info?



## nightworker (Mar 12, 2007)

Hi,

I'd be grateful if anyone on this site has info on the Dufour 38 Classic - vintage 2000-odd, or similar aged/sized Dufours. Noticed some posts a few years ago, but can't see anything more recent. Was this one of the ones under "new" ownership? 

I'm a new menber and in the past 20 years, I have owned three boats, a 30ft teak Alden, a 40 ft steel Roberts, and a 50 ft hardwood sailing junk, and currently have a kauri H-28. Unfortunately, it is in New Zealand, looked after by my family, and I'm working abroad so am looking at becoming reboated. 

Any info much appreciated. Thanks.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Nightworker..

New ownership is hard to define with Dufour....

I have been around Dufours since 1980..never actually owned one but sailed them many many many times..I followed their evolution since the begining...when the best thing coming out of Dufour were Windsurf boards.

At that time..they only had a pretty decent boat I believe 8 meters, with grey cabin paint, but that was it..

The brand started in 1964 and has had several owners since then. It was recentely aquired by the Grand Soleil Group of Italy.

The classical range is now 3 ranges old, they had the classic in 1995, the newer "performance" range in around 2000 and now the new "Italian" range the Grand large. They are reasonable average boats&#8230;like Jeanneau, for example&#8230;not better&#8230;not worse&#8230;.

The production of the Classic models the 30, 36 and 38 etc. feet starts in 1995 to present a moderately decent sailing boat to be able to compete with Benetau, Jeaneau , etc. but at a more accessible price. 
And it suceeded, however...at a cost of less than ideal sailing qualities and reletively less than desired quality. Dufour also bought Gib Sea, where the good stuff is.. So then they owned Dufour cheaper lesser boats, and Gib Sea..very good fast boats, (or were, now well leave it there) but more expensive. Basically you had what you paid for Gib Sea as the top boats and Dufour as the accessible boat. Bt don't get me wrong, they are still decent boats, just slow. Then they also bought KELT and KIRIE

The classic range were designed with Classic lines, thus the name, and are decent sailing boats, not fast, but comfortable and accessible. They are at Jeanneau level, but not better.

Then came the performance range in 2000, good looking boats...but sailing quality...well... its was just acceptable, like before...the newer (after classic range) look like very fast boats, when you look at them, but are stuningly slow. They changed the looks, but the boats were just average in sailing.
The sailing characteristics are still good, they point ok, sail confortably..just lack performance...even the performance ones...to give you an idea, last August, I was dead downwind without spi, just genoa (on pole) and main, racing against a 44 Performance with spi, and racing crew, and I passed him, wining over 18 minutes in a 7 mile run!!

And now (since 2007) the boats look really really nice, Italian hand in the design..can't beat that&#8230;

The newer boats reflect the hand of Italians, ie..look very very very good looks. The New dufours actually are as pretty as Grand Soleils and Dehlers now. So lets see how they sail....they still let the French build them, so it might just be looks again.

In the photo bellow you can see my neighbor a 36 classic.

Intersting thing...the mast, boom and gear...is far better than Benetau or Jeaneau!! They actually use Sparcraft performance masts and spars..Charleston Spars for the American market.

Its still a fairly good boat to own, can do coastal cruising OK, ideal for weekends with the family&#8230;just don't expect speed&#8230;ahhh they are very stable and good feel at the rudder, and due to the excellent rig&#8230;very well balanced too. Inside the finish is just like Jeaneau, not better. Its the type of get out, trim and forget....

A few site for you:

http://www.yachtworld.com/windworks/windwork










Dufour prudly anounces (rightfully) that their 40 footer, won the IMS 670 in 2005. But the baot was substantially modified. A feat nevertheless.


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## nightworker (Mar 12, 2007)

*Dufours info appreciated*

Hi Giulietta,

Many thanks for the very useful response. Kind of what I suspected. Actually, from what I've seen, the best of that type of boat in terms of speed is the X-boat range - sailed on a lovely X-442 in Thailand recently, which though very solid feeling went remarkably well in light airs. But waaay outside my price range! There is a more limited range of good yachts available second hand in Asia than in the US or Europe. Appreciate your comments. Regards, Nightworker.


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## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

I currently am trying to sell my Dufour 36 so obviously you might think I'm biased. However here is what I can tell you:

We really enjoyed the Dufour for what we did with it; which is coastal cruising all the way from Vancouver to Alaska. The boat is perfect for that and very comfortable. I also completely disagree with the previous post indicating that Dufours are or were slow sailers. My boat regularly beat Beneteau 400s in friendly races. I never got the impression that it is slow and in fact always felt very excited about it's sailing abilities as well as safe and confident enough to take my young family into Alaska's wilderness away from civilization.

Our boat is well set up and extensively upgraded for coastal cruising on the West Coast. It comes with complete cockpit enclosure, heat, gennaker, radar, below deck autopilot with remote, increased battery capacity with Xentrex monitor, high output alternator, solar panels, chartplotter, ICOM 802 SSB/HAM with DSC, electric windlass with all chain and large CQR, custom woodwork inside for comfort and utility, extra bilge pumps, safety equipment and much more.

We're selling 'cause we bought an offshore boat. Anyone looking for a good coastal cruiser on the West Coast?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

magnusmurphy said:


> I also completely disagree with the previous post indicating that Dufours are or were slow sailers. My boat regularly beat Beneteau 400s in friendly races. I never got the impression that it is slow and in fact always felt very excited about it's sailing abilities as well as safe and confident enough to take my young family into Alaska's wilderness away from civilization.


Geee, where does that leave the Beneteau, huh....  

Maybe I am biased, too...on speed, sorry... don't be offended, ok?

Anyway..I said the sailing abilities were good not bad...


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## Bluesmoods (Jul 8, 2001)

*Dufour 38*

A few corrections to the previous post... The Dufour 40 that won the IMS was NOT modified. It had the 6' 11" keel and the tall rig. Anyone can order that. I met the captain and crew at the Paris show!!

 The Gib Sea was an okay cruiser. The Classic 38 was a better built boat than Gib Sea. A little more "refined". The new Itilian ownership group went with Dufour and closed Gib Sea down.

The newer boats from 32 to 52 are really nice. Great sailing and great looks with very comfortable well thought out interiors. If you go beyond where the boat is built, you will find Dufour to be quite different from Jenneau. It is the build quality; the technologies utilized to engineer and construct the boats and the design. I highly recommend visiting the factory in La Rochelle if you are planning to travel to Paris. Visit Jenneau too. 

I think Umberto Felci hit the ball over the fence with the newer Dufours. 

If you are considering a 38, Good choice. Great all around boat... They seemed to have held values reall well too. There is or was a couple of newer 38 Dufours around too. There was one in our yard having a Max Prop installed that looked real nice.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

FWIW, the Classic 38 from around the year 2000 was the "old" Dufour prior to the take over by Grand Soleil. Back then Dufour, along with a lot of other Euro boat builders, was trying to get a foothold back in the US market. The Classic line was a definite cut above the other standard makes back then. I never sailed one so can't comment on that, but the accommodations and deck layout were quite nice. The build quality was above average. Definitely worth a look. 

And I agree that the line has taken another step up under Grand Soleil.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Blues,

I know the boat and what they modified, so don't tell me that, I live here...the keel *was* heavily modified to fit IMS, and so were the *sails*, the interior was lightened, the stay was modified, the furler removed, and so were the I, P J etc, because the boat races in IMS 670 (which is by the way, the slower of the IMS's), the boat has no teak, the boom was lowered and enlarged...the list goes on and on...that boat raced many times in the Copa Del Rey.

Here is the boat.

http://www.tidewatermarina.com/dufour_40.asp

And since you asked...here is why it won....and how...and why...sorry, but that was the last time it won...read boat lenght for that class, ok??It was racing against boats with 3 to 5 feet less LWL on a race whose objective is boat speed...OK?? This is true...ugly but true.

I don't say things just to say, ok??? I don't know a guy who knows a guy that has a friend...I actually know Sergio, and the boat. In the water.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Dufour 40 IMS*

"In one of the recent discussions on the new Dufour models there was a suggestion that the Dufour 40;Quum; that won the IMS Worlds was a heavily modified boat.

The follow excerpt from the 2006 Dufour News should set the record straight.

In 2005 the Dufour 40, "QUUM" won the title "IMS WORLD CHAMPION" as a perfectly standard boat, except for the obvious upgraded set of sails and the IMS trimmed keel. This title re-confirms Dufour's successful launch into A NEW ERA after a similar success last year when "QUUM" won the prestigious Copa del Rey with the DUFOUR 34. This is no longer a question of coincidence; this is the result of a well balanced design of safe and fast family cruisers that are at the very same time sufficiently competitive to win major events."

SERGIO LLORCA, the skipper of the Dufour 40 "Quum" reveals: "The Dufour 40 is a very noble and well balanced baot, very neutral at the wheel and easy to steer. Upwind it is difficult to make her surf but she keeps up her speed very easily. The big rudder gives her maximum bite with effortless helm.
Our Dufour 40 Quum does not differ a lot from a standard Dufour 40: the keel is
lighter and allows to keep the boat''s speed high up when the full crew is on board or during tacking manoeuvres with less weight down. We have obtained a perfect balance with the aft hull section slightly higher above the water line and a smaller genoa with a barber hauler system, to keep a firmer control on the course of the boat.
The Dufour 34 with which we won in 2004, was originally equipped with a standard
mast: it did not withold us from winning the Copa Del Rey, even in light
airs. The designs of the Dufour 34 and 40 resemble a lot, even their behaviour
at sea. But the Dufour 40 can be steered more precisely and keeps here speed especially at the run "

There is nothing on the IMS 40 champion boat that one couldn't request from a USA dealer. Talk to the guy in Chicago... They can do as much customizing as you want and the boat is still fantastic, no matter how much or how little you want to do.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

This will be my last post on this thread...I really don't give a rats ass anymore...I'm tired...

Its all in what they call the boat...

Like I said...I don't know a guy that knows a guy, that knows a guy...that is friends with a a guy at Dufour...I KNOW THE BOAT.

Please note that all the differences are in fact possible to get from the factory, as stated, but that is *not* the standard boat. And because of that they call it a "series" boat.

There were many arguments and discussions here in the racing circle here in Europe about this boat, and its rating and modifications, and Dufour made a Worldwide press campaign for it.

The solution was either withdraw OR...make this "racing" version a "series" boat...offered to the public...so you can buy one....just like BMW...they make the 6 series M6 with 500HP with a V10, and they make a formula 1 engine V10...both are BMW...but not the same car.

The differences I know...

1)The Qumm has 2 more winches installed, wich the standard version does not have, so flying a spi is harder on the "normal" one.
The cabin top winches are Wide base drum for spi control.

2)It has the routing of halyards, sheets, reefs, piano etc. different from the standard version, and different cables

3)It has 50cm (almost 2 feet more) more mast height (its a Sparcraft performance like mine...I saw them in France when I bought mine), and the mast is tapered, but can be ordered at the factory....but at customer's request and more $$$, but ITS NOT the standard version.

4) The genoa tracks and travelleres are different and have more trim features, and BARBER HAULER

5) the keel is 1000 lbs lighter and has no bulb....1000lbs...that decreases wet surface by a LOT..positive stability goes from 115,9 to 108,3 degrees...make it lighter and faster in lower winds. The keel can also be modified by the factory.

6) Bigger main, smaller genoa, main larger by 7,5 SQ meters, genoa smaller by 8 SQ meters

7)The back stay is different and so are its adjustment.

off course "small modifications" that change the IMS rating from 630,3 to 627,9...ahhh now it can enter (or could ehehehe) the IMS 670, even against smaller LWL boats...That's over...Thank God.

The following photos show Quijote, (Qumm's real name) against the "standard" version...be my guest...see for yourself.

The white Hull is Quijote, QUMM.

Qummis boat on left. Standard is on the right.























































The issue here is what they call series...to me its like if BMW wanted to race a formula 1 in a street race, and so it could be called a Street racer, was sold to the public as such...

Don't get me wrong, I give it credit for wining...I just don't feel its fare and square...do you?? And don't call it a "series" boat. please...its offensive..for us here...in the same waters

I am not saying its not a good boat.. I'm just saying its champion due to loop holes in rules (well IMS got smarter now and that is over). This is a discussion we had here for a long time, and we all feel its not fare..that is all

We had large fights over this thing, and how "political" crap tried to solve it. I am tired of this duscussion about this boat...its (thank God) water under the bridge...hurray to new rules...

and I don't really care what Dufour says about their boats....do you expect Ford to say bad things about Ford in their paper?? I guess not..

Signing out


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Well, whoever the original poster was, I think you have your answer. If Giu knows them first hand, there you go. Does not mean it is a bad boat, as Giu said, but be aware of the reality of a stock boat versus, well, highly modified. 

Giu knows his stuff, racing at least. I am still working on the whole cruising thing with him, but making progress...!!!

- CD


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Yes, I like Dufour too. I had asked Giu about them some time ago and he had recommended them, said they were good boats. So, he is not biased against them. 
CD, maybe you could entice him to come over for some chicken.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

What? Invite him to the Captains Table? He has to work his way up to that honor. Of course, I guess when the flame goes out, I could give him the AIm&Flame.

(smile).

- CD


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Blues- Seems kinda hard to say the boat wasn't modified then post a quote from the skipper saying that the keel, hull, sails, rigging, and mast were different?????

So far G- is the only one with first hand knowledge, apart from the quote from the skipper. It is a little off track from the original post, but sounds like Dufour wants to pull a fast one with their marketing.


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## Waymar83 (Jun 5, 2006)

Yeah but the real question is: Giu did YOU race her....?........ 

I looked at the link Giu posted earlier with the boat specs and some photos(Tidewater Marina). Damn fine looking boat!!!!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Waymar83 said:


> Yeah but the real question is: Giu did YOU race her....?........
> 
> I looked at the link Giu posted earlier with the boat specs and some photos(Tidewater Marina). Damn fine looking boat!!!!


Since its you asking...

I sailed the "standard" version of the 40 several times (was sold to Spain and I helped the Spanish guy "learn the boat, and sold him 3 mast steps I had bought in West marine) and a 44 performance here, that is doing the IRC championship.

The difference between the performance and the regular dufour is 1 knot no more no less.

I raced against the 44 (because I think its not fare to race against smaller hulls   unlike many   ), and as I said in my first post...

"to give you an idea, last August, I was dead downwind without spi, just genoa (on pole) and main, racing against a 44 Performance with spi, and racing crew, and I passed him, wining over 18 minutes in a 7 mile run!!"

That is 2,5 minutes per mile!!! without spi....he had spi....

I could pass him to leeward and still sail around them...and that's the 44 performance  

If I pick a fight, I don't choose a smaller guy..its not fare


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Giu...doesn't look like you need any help here. The pictures and your knowledge tell the story as it is. You may have to relinguish your "king" ass full of crap title if you keep this up! <g>


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Looks like a heavily modified boat to me, Even I can see that.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

From everything I've seen here, I'll have to agree with Giu. He's definitely the one who's opinion on racing matters I'd give the most weight here.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Part of the problem with boats that race is that many are modified far from the "stock" configurations, that are generally bought for cruising. While some boat manufacturers may offer different configurations, the "racing" ones may be very different from those sold to the cruising market.

A good analogy is that it is kind of like NASCAR.... which uses "stock" cars... but the cars are nothing like the ones sold to the public. On the NASCAR "stock" cars-there are no stereos, no automatic transmissions, no doors that open-they're welded shut, one on seat, a rollcage... yet it is called a "stock" car. _You can't go in to a car dealership and order one like this._


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I would say the Portagee kept it pretty well together there, for the most part, and I commend him for it. He obviously feels that the manufacturer is playing a little fast and loose with certain details; the kind of details usually printed in very small type at the bottom of the screen in a TV commercial.

It is perhaps indicative of the sailboat market that they are able to publish such things and expect not to get called on it. They do us, and themselves, no favors by doing so. Giulietta makes a pretty convincing case. I suppose I will now have to pay more attention to his posts on Catalinas, a thought that pains me!

The Dog's reference to NASCAR, and Giu's to Formula 1, are apt. You won't find an automaker claiming that the car on the showroom floor is what you saw on TV last Sunday. They are more than happy that it looks just like it, and want you to feel like Jeff Gordon driving it, but are upfront about such details as Mr. Gordon's car is rear wheel drive and the production car is front wheel drive, and there is not an options list where you can check off rear wheel drive and an extra 500 hp.

Oftentimes the internet provides more heat than light; in this case I would think that a fair amount of light has been shed and we are lucky to have a knowledgable poster such as Giu. In the interest of full illumination, I would think it entirely appropriate for Dufour, or one of their dealers, to respond to any points they feel to be unfair.

And that's about all the pleasantness I am inclined to send the Portagee's way for one day.<g>


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> And that's about all the pleasantness I am inclined to send the Portagee's way for one day.<g>


Ahhh... Giu, you have another possible protegé.  He will fall to the dark side...


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## Waymar83 (Jun 5, 2006)

Giu, you are the reference...

I've never raced...yet...and my knowledge is extremely limited and superficial ... but I would think that hull shape, weight and other design features have some importance to this discussion. For this Dufour 40, they did start with the standard hull including the construction materials and workmanship (yes?). They changed the keel (fair enough). Changed the mast and sails (you have to for this kind of race). lightened the boat....It makes sense if you have the $$$ and want to race with a specific boat to boost "the brand image". Add sailing skills and a little luck and you may have a winning combination. As was mentioned by 'dog' and "sailaway', its part of marketing. Just like BMW, FIAT or HONDA in F1. This is to me a legitimate attempt and activity for a manufacturer. (this is true in all sports. Do you think World Cup Downhill skiers use the same skis and boots we buy in the ski shops?). OK so they were not as publicly forthcoming in terms of the modifications as they should have been. Is this a surprise? 

On a related note, I don't know if I'll ever begin to understand (or have the patience for) things like class rules etc. There is wayyyy too much history and attention to detail for me to get a handle on it. I find it extremely confusing in trying to compare boats given the extent of the parameters. like comparing apples with (not even oranges) more like with a ham sandwich or a shoe.... But I'm learning even though I'm not sure I want to....)


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Waymar- I agree with you in concept, but the idea was that you were suppost to race with a standard factory boat. What they did was to take a factory boat, make a bunch of modifications to compete unfairly in an easiler class and then say, "Oh, well, we will make those modifications at the factory if someone wants them."


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