# Appledore Crewman Dies After Fall from Mast



## SOUNDBOUNDER (Dec 16, 2008)

Sad news, especially since this didn't have to happen

_The first mate of the schooner Appledore who sustained serious injuries January 17, when he fell approximately 50' onto the 86' ship's deck while working aloft has died, according to a family member.

According to Lt. Jeff Fry, senior investigating officer for U.S. Coast Guard Sector Key West, J.C. Smith, 25 was in a harness and working near the top of the schooner's mast when the accident occurred at approximately 9:00 a.m. last Tuesday. At the time, the Appledore was tied up at the wharf, with Smith and 2 other crew members onboard._

Appledore Crewman Dies After Fall from Mast | BoatingLocal.com

Appledore crewman injured in fall from 65-foot mast dies - Holly S. Edwards - Rockland - Camden - Knox - VillageSoup Gazette


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

Sad indeed. And scary. The line coming loose at the bottom is my biggest fear in going up. But it sounds like he had no backup in place.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Wow, that is horrible. The girlfriend was the one on belay. I just can't imagine a worse scenario. 

If you only go up on one haylard, bring your tether, and clip onto something.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

My biggest fear aloft has always been whoever is belaying getting distracted when you are up there for a while. That's one of the reasons I like atn's top Climber. The climbing line is secured and no one touches it. I'm in controll going up and down. The only line that's handled is the safety line.
Jim


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## SOUNDBOUNDER (Dec 16, 2008)

jimrafford said:


> My biggest fear aloft has always been whoever is belaying getting distracted when you are up there for a while.


Yeah, like the time I was up the mast and the belayer answered his cell phone and got in a heated argument with someone


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*As a long-time rock climber and mountaineer I'm often dismayed by the lack...*

... of training and understanding of the principles involved. Really, a brief class in top-rope climbing and belaying would do most sailors a lot of good. Falls climbing masts are far more common than top-rope belay failures when the number of folks involved is considered.

There is no excuse for the belayer becoming distracted. Period.

One line is enough, if it is belayed properly. That's all climbers ever use. But proper belaying of a moving load, whether a climber with climbing equipment or a sailor with turns on a winch, takes practice and training. Perhaps the chossen cleat was not suitable for the task; most are sized for securing lines, not smoothly easing a line under load.

Still, I generally use a second line and place an accender on it (like a Top-climber) unless my belayer is a climber I know to be well trained.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascender_(climbing)

A tether isn't really very suitable for clipping in. Climbing slings and biners are.
Mammut Dyneema Contact Sling at REI.com
I always have a hand full of each clipped on my harness. Much more versitile and faster.

One of the best ways for a begining climber or a small person to belay a larger one is to use a GriGri or Cinch. A child or small adult, anchored to the deck with a sling, could catch anyone.
Video: How to Use GriGri & Automatic Belay Devices While Rock Climbing | eHow.com
Even though they are idiot proof on the catch, lowering requires practice.

But it isn't the gear--she could have simply wrapped the rope around the boom 3x--it's the training. He should have climbed a short distance and had her lower him a few times, to get the feel. The climber is responcilble for understanding his belay.

It just didn't need to happen.


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## Quickstep192 (Jan 6, 2001)

I was aloft once when the 300lb friend who was helping me walked from one side of the boat to the other. What a ride!


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*If I were you, his ears would still be burning.*



SOUNDBOUNDER said:


> Yeah, like the time I was up the mast and the belayer answered his cell phone and got in a heated argument with someone


I would have thrown him off the boat right then. I don't need such a person.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Terrible thing - imagine what shape the girl is in, now and for the future.

When I go up the mast I have two halyards knotted AND shackled to me- one to the ring of the bosun's chair and one looped around me under my shoulders. I also take a length of line with me. When I am in position I loop that line around me and the mast - it keeps me from swinging and will provide some measure of braking should everything else fail.

Belt and TWO braces.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Very sad. Happens too often. I have mast steps but always at least wrap a tether around the mast as a safety. Ascenders and descenders (fig 8) can also be used on a halyard.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*But is it a reliable belt and suspenders...*



SloopJonB said:


> Terrible thing - imagine what shape the girl is in, now and for the future.
> 
> When I go up the mast I have two halyards knotted AND shackled to me- one to the ring of the bosun's chair and one looped around me under my shoulders. I also take a length of line with me. When I am in position I loop that line around me and the mast - it keeps me from swinging and will provide some measure of braking should everything else fail.
> 
> Belt and TWO braces.


... or is each fatally flawed?

If you have a UIAA or OSHA harness there is no need of the line under the arms. OSHA does not permit bosuns chairs that do not pass all requirments of harnesses, unless worn in combination with a harness. You can fall out. It's much easier to swing upside down that you think.

If you fall on the line under the arms, expereince indicates that there is a high probablility that you will either break ribs or simply suffocate. If you are alone or not activly belayed you will be dead in minutes. Both UIAA and OSHA have banned the use of chest harnesses, and a rope loop is worse than that.

If the knots are apropriate (figure-8 on a bight with a good tail) there is no need for the shackles.

The line to prevent swing is good. However, if you fall any distance and it catches on the spreaders or such you may die; it will probably break from the impact and you will have a punctured lung and broken spine (I've seen the aftermath of something very similar).

----

Sorry if I was harsh. I've helped scrape up 2 bodies, both the result of simple rigging errors. Simple, clean, correct rigging is best.

Duplication doesn't help if each element is flawed. I suggest a climbing class.


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## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

Never had any interest in climbing and as such would never have even thought of the things in that post. It probably would be of some benefit to know climbing rigging pretty well.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

pdqaltair said:


> If you have a UIAA or OSHA harness there is no need of the line under the arms. OSHA does not permit bosuns chairs that do not pass all requirments of harnesses, unless worn in combination with a harness. You can fall out. It's much easier to swing upside down that you think.


I have a good quality Bosun's chair - the second halyard is simply there because I won't trust my life to a single line or a single piece of gear.



> If you fall on the line under the arms, expereince indicates that there is a high probablility that you will either break ribs or simply suffocate. If you are alone or not activly belayed you will be dead in minutes. Both UIAA and OSHA have banned the use of chest harnesses, and a rope loop is worse than that.


It's only there as backup and it's firmed up so there wouldn't be a fall. I have it rigged so it would act much like the slings they use from rescue choppers. I can't imagine going up a mast alone - without one or two crew on deck that is.



> If the knots are apropriate (figure-8 on a bight with a good tail) there is no need for the shackles.


I didn't know about the 8 on a bight - I've always used a bowline. I take it an 8 on a bight is a climbing standard? I think I'll change over to it in future. I agree about the shackles, but since they're there??? The way I rig myself there really isn't any way the strain could come on them actually but it comforts me  and when you're dangling from a rope, 55 feet up, comfort is good. They certainly don't do any harm.



> The line to prevent swing is good. However, if you fall any distance and it catches on the spreaders or such you may die; it will probably break from the impact and you will have a punctured lung and broken spine (I've seen the aftermath of something very similar).


Actually, catching on the spreaders is the idea, or one of the ideas - preventing immediately falling all the way to the deck is what it's about. Broken ribs are fairly likely I agree but not instant death. I doubt that would create enough force to snap 3/8" double braid. All of my backups involve the assumption I won't end up as good as new. They are predicated on preventing that 55 foot fall. I fell 20+ feet off a ladder once without breaking anything - I figure THAT was MY chance - nothing similar is likely for me again.


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## SOUNDBOUNDER (Dec 16, 2008)

Quickstep192 said:


> I was aloft once when the 300lb friend who was helping me walked from one side of the boat to the other. What a ride!


They don't understand there is a pendulum effect


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

That's really sad news.

I once bartended on the Appledore. A friend worked for the owner back in the 80's. Beautiful ship.

Mimosas mostly, IIRC.

Regards,
Brad


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

This whole mast climbing thing confuses me. OSHA has strict guidelines as far as working at heights- harness requirements, tie off point requirements, lanyard requirements. Seems when we climb our mast, we do not follow this, and that is understandable, its like working on your house, you can do it as you like. 

But what do the riggers in a commerical boat yard do. Do they follow all the osha requirements? Also, we tend to use halyards, but are these rated to lift humans? 

I do not have climbing experience and plan to take a climbing class so I can use those techniques and do it safer. I do have mast steps, which make me feel a lot safer, although they do snag my sail and rigging at times.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> This whole mast climbing thing confuses me. OSHA has strict guidelines as far as working at heights- harness requirements, tie off point requirements, lanyard requirements. Seems when we climb our mast, we do not follow this, and that is understandable, its like working on your house, you can do it as you like.
> 
> But what do the riggers in a commerical boat yard do. Do they follow all the osha requirements?


I don't understand where you think there must be a deficiency.
* harness.
* dual lines over 5000 pounds
* tie-offs as needed. 
* shock absorbing lanyards only required if there is fall potential (there is not when you are suspended)
* training
* procedure review by "knowledgeable person"
Surely they can take shortcuts, but they can do it in compliance.

Please enumerate. OSHA allows numerous options for roped access. This is not all covered in the general industry standard.

I don't really like the "working on your house" comparison. Scary.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> I don't understand where you think there must be a deficiency.
> * harness.
> * dual lines over 5000 pounds
> * tie-offs as needed.
> ...


I see the following problems:
1. Harness sold by marine stores are not osha accepted.
2. Are the lines we used acceptable for human lifting?
3.Are boat tie off points rated 5000 lb and design/installation stamped by engineer?
Working on your house by homeowner does not fall under osha requirement- it is scary, but common- most people are injured at home, not at work- have a safe weekend.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

The yards and riggers I work w/ use a crane. I can't imagine a for hire service using halyards of unknown age to assend a mast. OSHA for private work is irrevelent.
Jim


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## dnf777 (Jun 23, 2007)

A sad reminder that when we wander from our familiar turf, bad things can happen. My other hobby, amateur radio, also has its tragic stories of falls from antenna towers. Much like sailing, it is a hobby that occasionally requires one to engage in potentially dangerous acts, that normally, would be left to a professional. Somehow, because it is "just a hobby", we think we can get away with doing things we may not be qualified to do.

This is not in anyway judging the trajedy of the thread, or impugning anyone, but just a thought on safety. And from the perspective of a hobby sailor, not one who does this professionally.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Thinking about convenient and therefore likely to be used methods of a safety line, would a halyard, tied into a big loop bitter end to snap shackle, forming a continuous loop run through a snatch block with some sort of friction descender in the line slow down a fall to something less than 32'/sec squared? I'm thinking it may be another use for my boom brake if rigged up right.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*Unless I'm mistaken...*



casey1999 said:


> I see the following problems:
> 1. Harness sold by marine stores are not osha accepted.
> 2. Are the lines we used acceptable for human lifting?
> 3.Are boat tie off points rated 5000 lb and design/installation stamped by engineer?
> Working on your house by homeowner does not fall under osha requirement- it is scary, but common- most people are injured at home, not at work- have a safe weekend.


.. and please post the link if I am:

1. Yup. Could use an OHSA harness--nothing is stopping you--but they are not as practical as UIAA harnesses. OSHA believes that construction workers can be fat, top-heavy, and had no waist. They may be right. But if you are fit and have a waist, a UIAA harness is 100% safe ( I watched a guy take an 80-foot fall in one; I was belaying). I believe the Spinlock harnesses are made by Petzel and are UIAA rated.
2. Not a requirement. Must test over 5000 pounds.
3. Not a requirement. (engineer stamp). A "qualified person" must review the procedure. I don't think I've ever seen a mast you could climb that would not be rated at 20,000 pounds in compression. Only the masthead matters. If the climber uses the spreaders he isn't bright. The "qualified person" would point that out.

1915.159(a)(9)(ii)

"...under the direction and supervision of a qualified person." No engineering background is required.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> .. and please post the link if I am:
> 
> 1. Yup. Could use an OHSA harness--nothing is stopping you--but they are not as practical as UIAA harnesses. OSHA believes that construction workers can be fat, top-heavy, and had no waist. They may be right. But if you are fit and have a waist, a UIAA harness is 100% safe ( I watched a guy take an 80-foot fall in one; I was belaying).
> 2. Not a requirement. Must test over 5000 pounds.
> ...


Does the Bosun's Chairs sold by west marine meet osha or UIAA standards?
Does anyone load test their haylards (line can loose 50% of their strength in 5 years and more as they age)?


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> Does the Bosun's Chairs sold by west marine meet osha or UIAA standards?
> Does anyone load test their haylards (line can loose 50% of their strength in 5 years and more as they age)?


1. Bosuns Chair. Not worn by itself, not close.

2. 1/2-inch Stay-Set is nearly 2x 5,000 pounds (9200). If there is doubt, you can pull a climbing line through.

But honestly, gear breaking is almost *never* the cause of roped falls. Not the one this thread discusses. For climbers, the 3 most common causes, in order, are:
* Belay failure. Either belayer inattention or a simple rigging error.
* Rapping off the end of the rope. Honestly.
* Running belay failure. Not mechanical equipment failure, but an improperly placed anchor coming loose.
* Wearing harness incorrectly and falling out. I had a kid fall 150 feet and land next to me, his harness still on the rope. He had out-grown it.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

pdqaltair said:


> 1. Bosuns Chair. Not worn by itself, not close.


Do you know what the shortcomings are that cause it to fail the standard?



> Wearing harness incorrectly and falling out. I had a kid fall 150 feet and land next to me, his harness still on the rope. He had out-grown it.


Witnessing that would end my climbing I think. It only took a broken foot to end my motorcycle riding - it just wasn't fun after that - I was too nervous about the other idiots on the road.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

SloopJonB said:


> Do you know what the shortcomings are that cause it to fail the standard?
> 
> Witnessing that would end my climbing I think. It only took a broken foot to end my motorcycle riding - it just wasn't fun after that - I was too nervous about the other idiots on the road.


Most fundamentally, the waist closure is a plastic buckle that would certainly fail the strength test. The wearer might not stay in during an inverted fall (the death I related above was due to a buckle failure).
Harken: Bosun's Chair
Other bosuns chairs are insecure for other reasons. OSHA and international regulations generally require a separate harness because of these shortcomings.

The simplest solution would be to wear a minimal harness under it.
GYM | Petzl
This sort is nearly one-size-fits-all and would be comfortable in a bosuns chair.

There are much better choices if the harness is to be used alone.
CALIDRIS | Petzl
This will give much better hang-time than sport climbing harnesses.

---

Of course, OSHA is so out of date the bosuns chair description is still based upon hemp rope and wood. Pathetic. The European standards are modern and many US bosuns chairs cannot be sold in Europe.

"Boatswain's chairs."

1910.28(j)(1)

The chair seat shall be not less than 12 by 24 inches, and of 1-inch thickness. The seat shall be reinforced on the underside to prevent the board from splitting.

1910.28(j)(2)

The two fiber rope seat slings shall be of 5/8-inch diameter, reeved through the four seat holes so as to cross each other on the underside of the seat.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

zz4gta said:


> Wow, that is horrible. The girlfriend was the one on belay. I just can't imagine a worse scenario.
> 
> If you only go up on one haylard, bring your tether, and clip onto something.


We rock climb - and the same exact thing happened to my brother-in-law. His girlfriend at the time was belaying him with a figure-8 on top-rope and talking to someone. He fell when she was distracted, built up too much speed as she tried to brake, she burned her hands and let go the rope and he cratered.

Luckily he only fell about 25 feet with some friction from the fig8 slowing him. Walked away with a very bruised butt and a concussion - but survived it. She stopped climbing - and he married someone else.

And we now all use gri-gris.


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## LManess (Jan 28, 2012)

Perhaps someone could explain something to me about the Top Climber. I just watched the video and and the line that's being climbed is fastened below to an outer rail and runs to the top of the mast. This allows the climber to remain away from the mast while climbing most of its length and so is not banging up against the mast until you get close to the top.

However, you are counting on that one line and nothing else. There is no backup plan. It isn't the chair that's going to do you in, it is the line breaking. Also, if you are in a nice quiet harbor climbing to the top of your mast then you may not be smashed into the mast when you are almost to the top, but any other time, this will probably occur, just when you've gained the most height.

I've had to climb the mast at sea, I had permanently attached steps on my mast and wore a safety harness. So I had the strength of my on hand going up the steps, and had the other person below adding safety with a line on the harness taking up slack as I went up. However, I would rather have had that safety line controlled by my own hands as well, but just never found a good way to do that.

Do people have other suggestions for safety when climbing the mast in the way of redundant systems?

Linda


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

LManess said:


> Perhaps someone could explain something to me about the Top Climber. I just watched the video and and the line that's being climbed is fastened below to an outer rail and runs to the top of the mast. This allows the climber to remain away from the mast while climbing most of its length and so is not banging up against the mast until you get close to the top.
> 
> However, you are counting on that one line and nothing else. There is no backup plan. It isn't the chair that's going to do you in, it is the line breaking. Also, if you are in a nice quiet harbor climbing to the top of your mast then you may not be smashed into the mast when you are almost to the top, but any other time, this will probably occur, just when you've gained the most height.
> 
> ...


As a climber, you're most always on a single rope. In all my years of climbing, I've NEVER heard of a rope _breaking_ - well apart from guys like Dan Osman doing insane stuff with them...but he's dead. Look, it just doesn't happen - especially on top rope situations like going up a mast. Most serious falls happen because of protection gear pulling out or breaking, poor protection methods, or, more often, people screwing up.

Now, obviously, this presumes that your rope is rated strong enough to hold you for what you're doing on it, and that it's in good shape. I honestly don't know what my halyards are rated for in terms of force, but I've not worried about it holding my svelte 180 pounds off the deck.

Also I NEVER go up alone. I have some there that knows how to belay winch me up and lower me. Even then, I do use redundancy like a prussik around the mast.

It's not that scary. You just have to be careful and check your gear. Know how to use it. Then trust it.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*I almost posted the same thing.*



smackdaddy said:


> As a climber, you're most always on a single rope. In all my years of climbing, I've NEVER heard of a rope _breaking_ - well apart from guys like Dan Osman doing insane stuff with them...but he's dead. Look, it just doesn't happen - especially on top rope situations like going up a mast. Most serious falls happen because of protection gear pulling out or breaking, poor protection methods, or, more often, people screwing up.


Go on-line, check the statistics for climbers of all sorts. You will learn that belay and rigging errors, followed by falling out of harnesses are what rule.

By all means, use 2 ropes. By all means, have a 2nd person check your work--very valuable for beginners and even experienced climbers. VERY rarely, climbers will cut a rope on a sharp rock edge, but only as part of a long fall (not hanging static).

As I said, I helped scrape up a guy who fell out of a harness.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> It's not that scary.


IS TOO. 



> You just have to be careful and check your gear. Know how to use it. Then trust it.


Exactly - keep in mind that you are LITERALLY betting your life on what you have done with what you are using.


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## dnf777 (Jun 23, 2007)

Smack,
I'm of the old school belief that if something CAN go wrong, it WILL eventually. Especially when trusting humans as a safety net. A person on a belay, while common practice, is highly susceptible to failure, as the accident statistics prove. When I *rarely* go up a mast, the halyard is only an elevator mechanism, NOT a safety mechanism. Just like your trusty Otis elevator, the cables are not safety devices, they are assumed to be fallible, thus the magnetic or cog brakes. When ascending radio towers, Two safety lines are used, and leap-frog each other, so at NO time am I untethered. If I'm going to fall, and only had one line, I can guarantee I would choose just the right moment to make it worth while for the home video shows on tv.

Dave


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

dnf777 said:


> Smack,
> I'm of the old school belief that if something CAN go wrong, it WILL eventually. Especially when trusting humans as a safety net. A person on a belay, while common practice, is highly susceptible to failure, as the accident statistics prove. When I *rarely* go up a mast, the halyard is only an elevator mechanism, NOT a safety mechanism. Just like your trusty Otis elevator, the cables are not safety devices, they are assumed to be fallible, thus the magnetic or cog brakes. When ascending radio towers, Two safety lines are used, and leap-frog each other, so at NO time am I untethered. If I'm going to fall, and only had one line, I can guarantee I would choose just the right moment to make it worth while for the home video shows on tv.
> 
> Dave


I'm with you. That's why I use the prussik. I'm just saying that being afraid of a rope breaking is a little misguided.

Absolutely no harm in using 2, 3, 32 ropes if it makes you feel safer - I just don't think it's necessary.

And, to your point, I always make sure I have an experienced, focused belayer. It's never fool-poof, but it's far, far safer than soloing ever will be.


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## LManess (Jan 28, 2012)

Well Smackdaddy you probably hit the nail on the head. I find going up that mast a scary proposition but know that at times you don't have much choice but to just go up there and do what has to be done.

So it is probably just a fear thing with me, but I always like redundant systems especially when looking down going - OMG.

Linda


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## dnf777 (Jun 23, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> I'm with you. That's why I use the prussik. I'm just saying that being afraid of a rope breaking is a little misguided.
> 
> Absolutely no harm in using 2, 3, 32 ropes if it makes you feel safer - I just don't think it's necessary.
> 
> And, to your point, I always make sure I have an experienced, focused belayer. It's never fool-poof, but it's far, far safer than soloing ever will be.


I think we agree. I use the two safety lines not out of fear of one breaking (like you say, that almost is never to blame) rather so I always have one connected while moving the other. No, I don't worry about ropes failing. Just what's at the end of them.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

dnf777 said:


> I think we agree. I use the two safety lines not out of fear of one breaking (like you say, that almost is never to blame) rather so I always have one connected while moving the other. No, I don't worry about ropes failing. Just what's at the end of them.


When I'm dangling 55' up with nothing but a fiberglass deck below me, I worry about the ropes breaking, the bosun's chair breaking, the people on deck having heart attacks, the wind beginning to blow, a passing boat hitting us....

You get the idea - call me a worrywart but I want every conceivable eventuality covered at least twice.


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## SIERRABD (Jul 16, 2008)

Can anyone comment on the following singlehanded arrangement:
The mastclimber in harness hoists himself on a line knotted to his harness and led through a ratchet block that itself is first hoisted via halyard to the masthead. The fall of the climbing line is led through a grigri also attached to the harness. There is also attached to the harness an ascender on a 6 foot pendant. As the climber goes up or down, every four to six feet, he moves the ascender accordingly along a separate, standing halyard. 
Is the arrangement sound?


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## SIERRABD (Jul 16, 2008)

(Although this may be obvious), on the ascent, the slack is pulled through the grigri.


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## dnf777 (Jun 23, 2007)

SloopJonB said:


> When I'm dangling 55' up with nothing but a fiberglass deck below me, I worry about the ropes breaking, the bosun's chair breaking, the people on deck having heart attacks, the wind beginning to blow, a passing boat hitting us....
> 
> You get the idea - call me a worrywart but I want every conceivable eventuality covered at least twice.


You forgot lightning. Never ascend on a cloudy day!


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

LManess said:


> ...So it is probably just a fear thing with me, but I always like redundant systems especially when looking down going - OMG.
> 
> Linda


Wait, you look DOWN? 

Regards,
Brad


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Bene505 said:


> Wait, you look DOWN?  Regards, Brad


Of course - you have to see where your tool went.


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## EJO (Jan 10, 2010)

Reading the article it sounds like he got to comfortable being up there and therefore slacking in his safety precautions. I do feel bad for his family and especially his GF, ripping the flesh of her hand while seeing your BF falling to the deck and not able to do anything. What a terrible accident. Double line is the only way to go even with a TopClimber (one for the ATN and one for safety)


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## SOUNDBOUNDER (Dec 16, 2008)

another article on it:

Appledore worker falls from schooner's mast | KeysNews.com


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*If he was climbing around and someone on the deck was belaying...*



EJO said:


> Reading the article it sounds like he got to comfortable being up there and therefore slacking in his safety precautions. I do feel bad for his family and especially his GF, ripping the flesh of her hand while seeing your BF falling to the deck and not able to do anything. What a terrible accident. Double line is the only way to go even with a TopClimber (one for the ATN and one for safety)


... You've got it backwards. The belayer should always be responsible for the belay and it's safety. The climber has other things to consider. If the belayer is not up to that, the wrong person is belaying.

I'm guessing, from the description, there was no second mechanism in place and that he was actually climbing on the structure (big schooner). He slipped and she wasn't prepared for the shock load. Lowering has also been known to get out of hand (rope heats up if you go too fast).


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

SloopJonB said:


> Terrible thing - imagine what shape the girl is in, now and for the future.
> 
> When I go up the mast I have two halyards knotted AND shackled to me- one to the ring of the bosun's chair and one looped around me under my shoulders. I also take a length of line with me. When I am in position I loop that line around me and the mast - it keeps me from swinging and will provide some measure of braking should everything else fail.
> 
> Belt and TWO braces.


I have always done similar. One line to the harness and one under the shoulders and bowline. Next time I am at the boat, I will see what it is like to hang on that alone.

The two halyards go through closed jam blocks and on winches. The jam blocks are not opened until it is time to come down. (Closed jam blocks go one direction only). I also felt like having a single point of failure (ring on bosun's chair) was not a good idea.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> And, to your point, I always make sure I have an experienced, focused belayer. It's never fool-poof, but it's far, far safer than soloing ever will be.


Sorry, but I disagree...

I'm not a big fan of mast steps, but going up the mast on such a "ladder" is far and away the safest way to go aloft, IMHO... I'm amazed that more people don't use something like a Mast-Mate webbing ladder... In terms of how safe I feel going aloft by climbing, rather than dangling in a harness or bosun's chair, there is absolutely no comparison, not to mention the enhanced freedom you have to do your work once you're up there...

A Mast-Mate cannot be used in every situation, but unless you need to get out to the spreaders, or you have to go aloft with the main hoisted, it will do in 95% of situations...

It's the only way to go up the mast, IMHO... And far safer, than putting your fate in someone else's hands - no matter how much they may love you... (grin)


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Sorry, but I disagree...
> 
> I'm not a big fan of mast steps, but going up the mast on such a "ladder" is far and away the safest way to go aloft, IMHO... I'm amazed that more people don't use something like a Mast-Mate webbing ladder... In terms of how safe I feel going aloft by climbing, rather than dangling in a harness or bosun's chair, there is absolutely no comparison, not to mention the enhanced freedom you have to do your work once you're up there...
> 
> ...


I agree, I am afraid of heights, but as long as I have somthing to hold onto I am good. I have mast steps and they are a great benefit- I go up alone, with a harness that I clip on as I go up. If I start to fall, or somthing gives, I got a backup. Even with someone hoisting you up, you could help with the steps, and if somthing goes wrong, you gotta back up to get down, or to hold on until things are corrected. May not solve all the problems, but helps a lot. Although I have heard the folding steps can be dangerous, or any step you do not slide your foot into.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I think I've discovered the fundamental difference in approaches...Eisberg and the rest of you mooks are just a bunch of chickens.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*Take a climbing course. Please.*

*jzk. *You may be able to hang from a bowline for 30 seconds, but...
a. You will pass out in a few minutes because breathing will be very difficult. Without rescue you will be dead in a few more. It's happens. This is part of why OSHA does not permit chest harnesses for fall protection.
b. The impact can be very dangerous; halyards don't stretch enough and the force is distributed on about one rib. Don't try a test fall.
c. Get a climbing harness for under the bosuns chair and leave the chest harness on the deck. You'll be much safer. Just because you have a chest harness does NOT mean you should use it for this. Rather like using a seat harness on a jackline system; the wrong tool and a dangerous tool. ONLY a seat harness gives you the time to wait for rescue; very important if something has broken or you are alone. I doubt very seriously if your crew would know how to get to you. How will they climb the mast with the only halyard they can reach broken? Better hope they can lower you smoothly. Did you set BOTH halyards up for smooth lowering?

*JonEisberg.* Trusting another person has to do with their training, not their fondness. Who has better footing and can concentrate on the rope, you, or a dedicated belayer? Any climbing guide will explain you have this backwards. The Appledore incident was very sad, but it is an indictment of poor training and planning, not belaying. I have a mast mate, I've climbed steps, and used ascenders; all are equally safe and rely on an effective belay.

*casey1999.* Clipping on as you go is fine for positioning, but you don't want to fall on that. Both ropes must be from the masthead. Climbers have broken 5,000-pound gear in 2- to 3-foot falls without the shock absorption of a nylon rope. Lift a 200 pound weight 3 feet, attach it with non-stretch webbing or polyester rope to something rigid you wouldn't mind breaking, and let it fall. Don't do it with a person; they will be injured. You are focusing on your fears and not on a real safety system. If you cannot trust the primary rigging 100%, fix it so that you can. Poor primary rigging with unsafe backups is a real formula for trouble.

----

A climbing course can show you several ways to set VERY safe belay systems and to recognize what is not safe. Some of the traps--ones you have found--are not so obvious. We're all guessing about how to do something safely that just got someone dead, and we don't need to guess.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

If it's good enough for this kid - it's good enough for me.










Helmets are for suckers...oh, and parents. WTH?


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> If it's good enough for this kid - it's good enough for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wish you hadn't posted that. If she flips over or falls backwards (VERY easy with a backpack on, by the way, since the CG is high), the kid's a cantaloupe.

The kid has no harness; small children can't use seat harness until ~ 10 years because they have no hips, and I don't see shoulder straps.

That is criminal, unless I'm missing something.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> If it's good enough for this kid - it's good enough for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This looks like trick photography rather than sheer stupidity!


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

smurphny said:


> This looks like trick photography rather than sheer stupidity!


Except that the guy's right foot is dangling in mid air. It's not like he staged it like Monty Python scales the street. It would be too much forethought for him to hawve his foot in the air. I'm afraid it's real.

Oh, and so everyone knows what staged looks like.






Yes, I'm afraid the other picture is real.

Regards,
Brad


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## LManess (Jan 28, 2012)

Well, I guess I should tell my up the mast story here - otherwise known as - it sure seemed like a good idea at the time.

I was going into an atoll named Ahe in French polynesia. One of the many islands there famous for production of black pearls. Charts showed the channel navigable but in that area of the world you really have to pay attention, since the charts may or may not be accurate. So, since I had a partner we decided that I should go up the mast to the spreaders to have a good view of the one pass into the atole. The seas were pretty calm, and just for added insurance the engine went on, since the pass into the atole was very narrow. 

Just as the line was made fast and I plunked down on the spreader, with one of the mast steps gouging my side I looked out through the pass, that we were now entering. That's when I saw the deep part of the channel and something wierd going on with the water just at the end of the entrance of the pass. What was that? Churning water? It was too late to get down from the mast at that point. The engine went to full on and we hit the white water.

The boat jolted and started bucking from side to side. It almost stopped dead. We inched forward through the water rocking back and forth and side to side. Up on the mast all that movement was compounded. I already head a death grip on the mast, but it took all my strength to hold on. The price was a great big black and blue mark from the mast step that I kept banging in to- not something I would want to ever do again.

Linda


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Bene505 said:


> Except that the guy's right foot is dangling in mid air. It's not like he staged it like Monty Python scales the street. It would be too much forethought for him to hawve his foot in the air. I'm afraid it's real.
> 
> Oh, and so everyone knows what staged looks like.
> 
> ...


It looks like there is a bit of sag in the line leading from the guy who seems to be "below." Also, her hands do not look as if they are really gripping anything as if she is climbing up but rather on an inclined surface. No helmet on the kid to protect from falling rocks or a fall? A few clicks and up pops the truth: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/889013-mountain-climber-straps-her-toddler-to-her-back-as-she-scales-rock-faces
Murph


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> I think I've discovered the fundamental difference in approaches...Eisberg and the rest of you mooks are just a bunch of chickens.


LOL! Yup, you've sure got that right, going aloft definitely my least favorite thing I routinely do aboard my boat... Every time I get to thinking about stepping up to something closer to 40 feet, all I have to do is take a trip to the top of my mast, and by the last 10 feet, I'm cured of that urge, at least once again... (grin)



pdqaltair said:


> *JonEisberg.* Trusting another person has to do with their training, not their fondness. Who has better footing and can concentrate on the rope, you, or a dedicated belayer? Any climbing guide will explain you have this backwards. The Appledore incident was very sad, but it is an indictment of poor training and planning, not belaying. I have a mast mate, I've climbed steps, and used ascenders; all are equally safe and rely on an effective belay.


You're right, of course... But, my perspective is primarily that of a singlehander who wants to go up the safest way possible without any outside assistance... For me, nothing else comes close to the Mast-Mate in the ease and safety of going it alone...

Disagree slightly about your point of "who has better 'control'"? I would suggest the person who's actually going aloft certainly has a better _awareness_ of what's happening up there. It's always disconcerting to watch someone being hoisted aloft, and witness the _delay_ that can easily occur between the sudden shout of "Hold it!", and the actual cessation of the ascent or descent (grin)... Probably just me, but I feel far more comfortable being in complete control of everything I'm doing up there, rather than depending on _anyone_ else, no matter how experienced...

Going aloft is another area in which the modern prevalence of electric winches has come to play an increasingly dangerous part... I shudder every time I see a couple of Mom & Pop cruisers hoisting each other up the mast using an electric winch, and relying on the self-tailing mechanism... An EXTREMELY dangerous practice, IMHO - even with an electric winch, I think you still really need 2 people on deck - one to operate the winch, and one to do the tailing... And, one pair of eyes aloft, and one pair focused on the winch...

I linked to it in another thread awhile back, there was an absolutely nightmarish accident at Jolly Harbour in Antigua last winter regarding an electric self-tailing winch being used for such a purpose, when the switch failed in the ON position... End result was the loss of a hand of the woman operating the winch, and the loss of 8 fingers of another person who tried to assist...

Warning - this account is not for the squeamish...

Freak accident leaves woman with severed hand | Antigua Observer Newspaper


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

pdqaltair said:


> *jzk. *You may be able to hang from a bowline for 30 seconds, but...
> a. You will pass out in a few minutes because breathing will be very difficult. Without rescue you will be dead in a few more. It's happens. This is part of why OSHA does not permit chest harnesses for fall protection.
> b. The impact can be very dangerous; halyards don't stretch enough and the force is distributed on about one rib. Don't try a test fall.
> c. Get a climbing harness for under the bosuns chair and leave the chest harness on the deck. You'll be much safer. Just because you have a chest harness does NOT mean you should use it for this. Rather like using a seat harness on a jackline system; the wrong tool and a dangerous tool. ONLY a seat harness gives you the time to wait for rescue; very important if something has broken or you are alone. I doubt very seriously if your crew would know how to get to you. How will they climb the mast with the only halyard they can reach broken? Better hope they can lower you smoothly. Did you set BOTH halyards up for smooth lowering?


Either halyard can be used to lower. Why would the crew be climbing anywhere rather than just lowering me? And, if I was conscious, it would only need to be to the next spreader.

Not disputing the benefits of your suggestions, just asking.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> If it's good enough for this kid - it's good enough for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What if a rock falls on the kids head, would only take a small rock to do extensive damage. I got no problem taking risk with my own life, got the house, cars, boat paid for, no debt, and got a good life insurance policy to take care of the kids and wife (wife can find a nice 19 year old boy to take care of her), but never risk the lives of my kids, wife, or friends.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> What if a rock falls on the kids head, would only take a small rock to do extensive damage. I got no problem taking risk with my own life, got the house, cars, boat paid for, no debt, and got a good life insurance policy to take care of the kids and wife (wife can find a nice 19 year old boy to take care of her), but never risk the lives of my kids, wife, or friends.


You're right. She is a freakin' idiot.

We took our first son climbing with us when he was 3-weeks old. But we hung his carrier in a tree (to keep him away from dogs) and he slept while we climbed. To take a kid up on your back is lunacy. I don't care if it's a 5.5 and you're on top rope.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

*Suspension Trauma*

I haven't seen any mention of Suspension Trauma, Orthostatic Intolerance, Harness Hang, Harness Induced Pathology - whatever you choose to call it.

I realize that that a lot of you will know this but some of you may not. No matter what system you use, if there is a CHANCE of falling, where your fall prevention could leave you suspended, you need to be sure that you can be rescued (or self rescued) within a few minutes or you could die. The problem is venous pooling: blood pools in your legs which can result in unconsciousness in as little as 5 minutes and cardiac arrest in less than 30.

If you find yourself hanging, try to bring your legs up and push against the mast (or anything else nearby), especially if you feel faint or your vision starts to "gray out". You might also consider a Suspension Trauma Strap (also called various proprietary names). Mine is from DBI/SALA and is a single loop - I actually like the Miller stirrup kind better. The strap(s) roll up into a pair of small pouches and when deployed give you something to stand/push against with your feet to help keep the blood pumping - keeps you alive a little longer. 

Just one more thing to worry about.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

smurphny said:


> It looks like there is a bit of sag in the line leading from the guy who seems to be "below." Also, her hands do not look as if they are really gripping anything as if she is climbing up but rather on an inclined surface. No helmet on the kid to protect from falling rocks or a fall? A few clicks and up pops the truth: Mountain climber straps her toddler to her back as she scales rock faces | Metro.co.uk
> Murph


Confirmed then. It's really stupid what she's doing. No helment for the kid, but she made sure she had one. Selfish *****.

Regards,
Brad


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Geoff54 said:


> I haven't seen any mention of Suspension Trauma, Orthostatic Intolerance, Harness Hang, Harness Induced Pathology - whatever you choose to call it.


True enough. I didn't think they were ready for this detail yet, not if hanging from a bowline on the chest seem practical.

There are 3 ways to learn about an electric fence; pee on the fence, listen to someone who has peed on the fence, or read up on it. I suppose you could take a class, but they were canceled due to light attendance.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

pdqaltair said:


> There are 3 ways to learn about an electric fence; pee on the fence, listen to someone who has peed on the fence, or read up on it. I suppose you could take a class, but they were canceled due to light attendance.


I've peed on a few electric fences over the years (metaphorically speaking). These days I try to avoid doing it in person and if I can warn someone before they try, maybe they can avoid the shock to the genitalia.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Geoff54 said:


> I haven't seen any mention of Suspension Trauma, Orthostatic Intolerance, Harness Hang, Harness Induced Pathology - whatever you choose to call it.
> 
> I realize that that a lot of you will know this but some of you may not. No matter what system you use, if there is a CHANCE of falling, where your fall prevention could leave you suspended, you need to be sure that you can be rescued (or self rescued) within a few minutes or you could die. The problem is venous pooling: blood pools in your legs which can result in unconsciousness in as little as 5 minutes and cardiac arrest in less than 30.
> 
> ...


Good point. I took a fall prevention course at work and the insructor said even the OSHA approved full body harness used by construction workers working at heights would kill you if you are left suspended for more than about 10 minutes. I was surprised as the strapping on these harness is wide and you would not think that it would put that kind of pressure on your blood flow piping.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

casey1999 said:


> Good point. I took a fall prevention course at work and the insructor said even the OSHA approved full body harness used by construction workers working at heights would kill you if you are left suspended for more than about 10 minutes. I was surprised as the strapping on these harness is wide and you would not think that it would put that kind of pressure on your blood flow piping.


It's not the harness, it's good old-fashioned gravity combined with the elasticity of your blood vessels. I was often alone so I used to carry a cell phone thinking I could call for help and just hang out until it arrived - it was a shock when I found out that I would be dead before anyone got there. I suppose you could wear a G-Suit but that a bit much for climbing the mast.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*So one is certainly going to claim this is not true...*

... because they have hung longer than that.

Very true, Generally you can hang for some time with no more than wobbly legs. However, combined with the pressure of a fall, it has happened. It also depends on the fit of the harness and the individual. Many "OSHA" harnesses are terribly designed for weight distribution, far worse that climbing harnesses. Climbers never report this particular problem. But OHSA doesn't have a requirement for a harness to be worth a damn in use, only for strength. In general, OHSA harnesses have the fallen worker leaning forward, with pressure on the femoral arterys, while climbing harness have you lean back with pressure on the less sensitive butt. OHSA likes this because it is safer for a bricklayer, forking on a scaffold, reducing the chance of striking the back of his head. Climbers and sailor hate it and it is a poor general-purpose philosophy. But OSHA is big on one-size-fits-all.

I use OHSA harness on the job and climbing harnesses on the weekends; the OHSA harnesses are crap for vertical access.


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## mtboat (Oct 14, 2007)

All great posts from the climbers. I also have two cents worth to add. Been in ski patrol/ backcountry rescue, and climbing. I have been using a device for many years that I have not seen mentioned, that might have helped with the girls burnt hands, and held the climber. A simple device found in climbing shops called an ATC. There are several newer and different models made after, that are similar. The basic idea is, it is a belay/ rappel device that is way more secure then a figure 8 device. I have used figure 8's and they are really slippy. This device locks off in a hurry, is smaller, and lighter. I have seen our smallest patrol person hold and lower the biggest. They can be used for rappel...but are much slower than a figure 8 for that purpose.
Not intending to suggest any particular method for ascending, just saying....if there is a belayer involved, this piece is much safer. I quit carrying 8's long ago.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I’m almost embarrassed to post this. I go up in a climbing harness almost exclusively as I tend to slide forward in a boson’s chair and my boys get pinched on the crotch strap. I’ve been winched up the mast by arm power, cordless drill (winch buddy) and even by the anchor windlass (and by Mrs. B no less!) On occasion, I have prussic’d myself up (mainly for practice for single handed distanced racing). After a while the harness can get uncomfortable too, so I stand up in some webbing stirrups for both comfort and to get a little higher at the masthead (easier to work on things that way). I like to go up on the spare jib halyard and have the spin as a backup. On the return trip, I like to go down along the headstay so I don’t bang on the mast. Back in my younger days I tended to be either the lightest or youngest guy on board so I always got the call to go aloft. Going aloft even in a moderate sea gets you really banged up which added to the entertainment of my crewmates. Racers have an odd sense of what is funny.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

mtboat said:


> All great posts from the climbers. I also have two cents worth to add. Been in ski patrol/ backcountry rescue, and climbing. I have been using a device for many years that I have not seen mentioned, that might have helped with the girls burnt hands, and held the climber. A simple device found in climbing shops called an ATC. There are several newer and different models made after, that are similar. The basic idea is, it is a belay/ rappel device that is way more secure then a figure 8 device. I have used figure 8's and they are really slippy. This device locks off in a hurry, is smaller, and lighter. I have seen our smallest patrol person hold and lower the biggest. They can be used for rappel...but are much slower than a figure 8 for that purpose.
> Not intending to suggest any particular method for ascending, just saying....if there is a belayer involved, this piece is much safer. I quit carrying 8's long ago.


Good points. I started trad climbing in the 70; hip belay, then Stictch Plate, then Cosmic Arrester, then ATC, and other of course. The problem here is the the typical halyard is not a climbing rope (much stiffer) and the devices climbers use are calibrated to a certain group of ropes; a device that is solid on 10.5 mm line may be death on 8.0mm ice line, and not even feed a stiff static cord.

I generally use a halyard winch with lots of turns on the drum, but you've got to test it and keep the right angle. Additionally, the devises you mention excel at feeding easily, and then locking off. I can think of no equivalent alternative for these ropes. Suggestions?

This is why we all hung up the figure-8; the lock-off is not as reliable.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

mtboat said:


> All great posts from the climbers. I also have two cents worth to add. Been in ski patrol/ backcountry rescue, and climbing. I have been using a device for many years that I have not seen mentioned, that might have helped with the girls burnt hands, and held the climber. A simple device found in climbing shops called an ATC. There are several newer and different models made after, that are similar. The basic idea is, it is a belay/ rappel device that is way more secure then a figure 8 device. I have used figure 8's and they are really slippy. This device locks off in a hurry, is smaller, and lighter. I have seen our smallest patrol person hold and lower the biggest. They can be used for rappel...but are much slower than a figure 8 for that purpose.
> Not intending to suggest any particular method for ascending, just saying....if there is a belayer involved, this piece is much safer. I quit carrying 8's long ago.


Agreed. 8s suck. I do like the ATCs, but I prefer the grigri. That thing's the bomb. The only trick with it is getting used to belaying a lead climber on it (feeding slack through quickly for a clip).


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

pdqaltair said:


> I generally use a halyard winch with lots of turns on the drum, but you've got to test it and keep the right angle. Additionally, the devises you mention excel at feeding easily, and then locking off. I can think of no equivalent alternative for these ropes. Suggestions?


These are just my thoughts - assign whatever value to them that you want. I absolutely would not recommend these unless you are certain that you know what you are doing, which of course, I never do.

Attach a locking biner to the jib halyard. Pass your preferred climbing rope through the biner and then hoist the jib halyard to the top of the mast and cleat it off securely. Take the two ends of the climbing rope around the outside of the shrouds so that it doesn't tangle wit the spreaders. You now have a top rope. Take one end and tie in. Take the other end thru' a Grigri or other self-locking belay device attached to your belay loop. Have your helper winch you up the mast using the main halyard while you self belay. If anything goes wrong use the GriGri to rapel down. I like this because the person going up the mast is in charge of their own safety. The disadvantage is that your climbing rope can get caught on a spreader but at least it is firmly attached and you are in control. Also, why not run the main halyard thru' a rope clutch? Sure you are adding a little extra friction and it needs to be released for the decent but you can't be dropped on the way up or while at the masthead.

If you are climbing the mast (as opposed to being winched up) you could rig the top rope in the same way and have someone belay you with almost any belay device -ATC, figure8, whatever. But you are putting your safety in their hands - Do you trust them?

I hope that all makes sense.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

pdqaltair said:


> ... because they have hung longer than that.
> 
> Very true, Generally you can hang for some time with no more than wobbly legs. However, combined with the pressure of a fall, it has happened. It also depends on the fit of the harness and the individual. Many "OSHA" harnesses are terribly designed for weight distribution, far worse that climbing harnesses. Climbers never report this particular problem. But OHSA doesn't have a requirement for a harness to be worth a damn in use, only for strength. In general, OHSA harnesses have the fallen worker leaning forward, with pressure on the femoral arterys, while climbing harness have you lean back with pressure on the less sensitive butt. OHSA likes this because it is safer for a bricklayer, forking on a scaffold, reducing the chance of striking the back of his head. Climbers and sailor hate it and it is a poor general-purpose philosophy. But OSHA is big on one-size-fits-all.
> 
> I use OHSA harness on the job and climbing harnesses on the weekends; the OHSA harnesses are crap for vertical access.


I like a tower climbing harness which is OSHA but designed so you can work while being held up by the harness + you can attach a butt sling or even a hard seat and just sit in it like a bosuns chair. Best of both worlds IMHO.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*And yet still, the leg straps are wrong.*



Geoff54 said:


> I like a tower climbing harness which is OSHA but designed so you can work while being held up by the harness + you can attach a butt sling or even a hard seat and just sit in it like a bosuns chair. Best of both worlds IMHO.


Look where the leg straps are. 
Revolution Tower Climbing Harnesses

Another, with the butt strap, but still the leg loops are wrong.
Tower Fall Protection, Climbing Harnesses, Elk River, DBI | Site Pro 1

Climbers fall daily, repeatedly, and far, and yet someone feels they have to re-think it. I've spent most of the day, as a younger man, in hanging belays, way off the deck. The reality is, for climbers, this design will increase injury by misplacing the load and by forcing an incorrect fall trajectory (too vertical).


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## mtboat (Oct 14, 2007)

Agreed climbing ropes are not always the same as marine rope, but I've used the ATC, (first gen) on 11mm as a single and double rope, down to 5mm static line (double only). 
I think the newer models are using a tapered design that has some teeth to it. Might lock off without even holding the rope. I trade off the slowness for the security. As for going up.... I have been considering a pair of "jumars" , and etriers, with a daisy chain and fifi hook to go around the mast, securing the halyard, and going up it. Also, have a different halyard secured and use that to belay myself with the ATC. Gotta stop about every 5 ft. to take up slack in the belay. Opinions? Is it too much? Haven't tried it , but got the gear.


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## nicktulloh (Aug 2, 2011)

Ten years ago the fatality rate for hunters using tree stands was appalling. It's still not great but now the technology and education is available for those who want it. Mostly common sense but most sane hunters now use a safety rope and prussic on the way up and down and a certified harness all the time. There's lessons to be learned googling the topic.


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