# Toe Rail Replacement with White Oak or ?



## HighFly_27 (Oct 4, 2012)

I have evaluated my Toe Rail and it's fairly soft, (42 yr's. old) cracked and may not last me through my intended life of the boat for me (3 to 4 yr's.).

I measured the side toe rails @ 2 7/8" high, 2 1/2" at base, 2 1/4" at top (tapered). I need 36' feet for one side X's 2 = 72' feet total, bow toe rails a little different about 6' feet and curved stern rails = 4' feet.

I have received recommendations for: White Oak or Black Locust for internal structure members, that are sealed with epoxy to protect them.

I priced the Teak out and it will run about $ 1.5 K to $ 2.0 K bucks for all of it. I planed on re-using most of the S.S. hardware but will add $ 300.00 more for replacment hardware as needed.

*My No# 1 Question, has anyone used White Oak (epoxy sealed) for Toe Rails

and what were your results ______________ ?*

I can buy the Teak ($ 2K) but would rather use USA Wood ($ 300.00). I do not want to go through all this work and have So, So Results. I don't want the boat to look like a 2nd hand ... repair deal, and distract from the boats appearance & resale. I have all the necessary shop tooling to reproduce this (replacement) toe rail with 99% reproduction results.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Oak belongs inside. Even if you paint it will look like a 2nd hand repair deal, because it will be. You need a tight grained, dark, weather resistant wood to not distract from appearance. You need teak to not lower resale.

Look up IPE, or even mahogany decking. 

As I said in another thread, cheap, fast, good. Pick one.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Avery,Chuck, actually white oak weathers much like teak. It will turn silver grey and it will darken with oil and varnish. It's even been used for wooden dams by the settlers back in the day. Epoxy will peel off in short order though and epoxy can't hold up to sunlight. Granted, it won't look anything like teak or mahogany or teak.


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## HighFly_27 (Oct 4, 2012)

ChucklesR,

You're Spot On .. so get out the $ 2 Grand.

I'm having a problem with finding Teak (finished) of the correct length. I see (3) splices on the side or the boat, so 10 to 12 ft. long X's (3) splice in points on the I-37. The correct size is -- 2 7/8" high, 2 1/2" at base, 2 1/4 at top X 10 to 12 ft. in length. I need (6) lengths = 60 to 72 ft., with the (2) bow short sections included in, 68 ft. should do it with no waste. 

I see the correct size teak for sell but only in 8 ft. lengths (only). I did see marine lumber places that specialze in marine wood but closed today; and shipping by freight will be costly (price of life) for 10 or 12 ft. sections.

The Teak comes pre-finished, would you apply a 2nd or 3rd coat of Teak Finish.. or leave it

alone __________ ?


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Highfly, are you sure you want to go to all the trouble for a boat you're going to keep for only 3 or 4 years? Can't you just epoxy, fair and paint the old toerail and just go sailing? I have seen from your other threads that you have your hands full with your boat and its repairs. It seems a shame to spend so much time fixing your boat for the short period you intend to keep her. I wonder if it's more prudent to unload this boat and get something in sailaway condition?... 

If you do decide to go with wood toerails, I second Chuckles suggestion of Ipe. It is cheaper, excellent for deck stuff, lasts forever and is much more resistant than teak.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

Oak and teak are two woods not recc'd for use with epoxy, it won't stick.


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## HighFly_27 (Oct 4, 2012)

Well.. I See your Point.

I think that the current (42 YO) toe rails are a coin flip on making it for 3 years or so. I'd rather do it now and have it done. Really, the I37 is not a bad boat and fair + shape in it's present condition. The yard master had zero money to make with me, he said that this boat had a lot of money spent on it (eng. & trans., etc.) and was seaworthy. The rudder & 4 x 4 hole is not a big deal and well within my comfort zone ($$ & my fix). 

The other items will add up i.e. electronics, 2 windows (fogged), A/C repair, cold box, 2 rotted areas, DC panel, control cables in cabin (not tight) and more. I see 10K + and we are sailing, if 5 K more.. then, I can handle it. Currently, I have $ 8,800.00 in the I-37 and it's not costing me slip rental. 

My Son is 17 and has taken a interest in the boat. I was hoping he'd go this route and he's asking me a lot of questions (everyday). He's in the process of setting the I-37 as his 2nd man cave. He running the TV cable and power out to it. If he continue's his interest.. I will add him to the 3 day refresher sailing course with me in December.

I'm a down to earth guy and have figured everything out from A to Z. I could have bought a boat that was ready to go but it would have been about 20K or Up. I figure about 18 to 20 K in the I-37. The big ($20 K) s money for major items has been spent done by the former owner. I figure about 250 man hours of labor at 25 hours per week = 10 weeks work. I think I will be done with the boat at the end of March time frame. 

The biggest reward for me.... getting my Son involved, he may fall in love with sailing. If he works on it and becomes personally involved, this will be good thing and smiles. If he takes a interest, then, I will not worried about selling the boat in 3 years or so. I'll give the I-37 to my Son. If he vest's enough time in the boat... he may/ will have some special memory's in his life (my smile's will be priceless). I'm not trying to sell my dreams to my Son... he may not take a long term interest but that's my logic. 

I will fix the I-37 and it will be rewarding project for me. I may epoxy the toe rails but will not deal with them until the big items are fixed 1st. I may find some teak at a great price and smile even more .. with new toe rails.

Avery


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Ipe, or Ironwood is extremely durable, which is why they use it for exterior decking. It is also as hard as iron and would be murder on any power tool blades. 

Teak would be my first choice for this application but is expensive. I would not buy pre-finished teak which would just make expensive wood even more expensive. If you are having trouble finding appropriate sized teak stock then you have not checked out M. L. Condon in White Plains, NY. Pretty far from PA or FL but they have had a variety of different thickness stock in their yard. Pretty sure all their wood is surfaced on 3 sides, 1 side rough.

Mahogany would be my 2nd choice. When finished nicely it can look as nice as (sometimes even better than) teak. Mahogany is a bit cheaper than teak.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Highfly, you've got the right attitude! I'm happy to hear your 17-year-old son is involved. It'll be a great father-son project. My son just turned 18 and has been my boat companion (and labourer!) for the last 4 years. Just remember to get out sailing during the repairs. A day out sailing with your son will make it all worthwhile. 

Caleb, while Ipe is HARD, it is very much suited to this application. Here in Brazil, where Ipe is a native wood, it is often used to replace old aluminium toerails. The stuff is TOUGH! The biggest problem working with Ipe is it can be hard to get a smooth finish (it likes to "chip"). Go slow with the power tools and it should be fine.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

Fat Andy's Hardwoods Hardwood Lumber

These guys provide teak for Sabre. Tell them the dimensions you need, where you want the scarf joint, best part it is real teak & they'll ship it right to your door.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

HighFly, if you're working on the boat in PA vs. Fl PM me and I'll hook you up with a couple of local lumber suppliers. One specializes in mahogany and ipe, the other in teak. Both sell at wholesale prices and expect you know what you're buying walking in. These are NOT home centers, just good old lumber yards.

On woods:
Ipe is extremely hard and can be prone to cracking and end checking. Take light passes with routers, pre-drill all screw holes slightly oversize so the screw bites on the fiberglass only and don't overtighten fasteners. Use sharp tools, bits and blades. Wipe ipe with acetone before applying glue or finish as you would with teak. Make sure to get plenty of finish on exposed end grain to prevent end checking. You may have trouble getting ipe to follow the curve of the toe rail. 

White oak is a good outdoor wood but it has more movement with changes in temperature and humidity than teak, mahogany or ipe. That means a varnish finish won't hold up very well and because it has a pronounced open grain it won't look as good. 

Mahogany isn't as hard as teak but it's MUCH less expensive, is very easy to work with and finishes beautifully. You have to watch what you're buying though. For exterior woodwork on a boat you want true South American mahogany. African mahogany (khaya) will have more movement and won't retain a finish as well.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

Are you sure that you need to replace your Toe Rail? While Denise and Frogwatch are mostly right ("Epoxy will peel off in short order" / "epoxy can't hold up to sunlight" / "not recc'd for use with epoxy, it won't stick"), most weathered teak can be reclaimed with epoxy if you do it the right way. I was told about this some years ago, tried it and it worked for me. You can always try it on a small section to see - you'll know if you are happy with it after the epoxy stage before applying the varnish. The key (in more ways than one) is the first coat of epoxy. I've used System Three products but there is no reason why this won't work with other brands.

It's best to remove the piece so you can coat all surfaces. I know this is a PITA with a toe rail so, if you try this, you will have to decide if it's worth the extra effort.

Strip off the old varnish (a chemical stripper works well).

Sand off any remaining varnish and sand back until you are happy with the natural color. Finish with about 180 to provide a key. After the worst of the weathered surface has been sanded, save the saw dust from the remaining sanding.

Only if really needed, use a teak brightener (my opinion - others disagree).

Wipe down with acetone to remove natural oil. Apply a coat of clear, thin epoxy working it well into any cracks. I've used System Three Clear Coat which is nice and thin - you might have to thin other clear epoxies but it needs to be thin to soak into the teak. This works best if the wood is warm (sunny day or a heat gun or ??) - I was told not to do it in direct sun as the increasing temp can cause air bubbles but I haven't had a problem and the warm teak seems to really suck in the thin epoxy.

Mix the saw dust with some epoxy and use to fill cracks. Make some more sawdust from a piece of scrap teak if needed. Lightly sand until smooth.

Apply two more coats of epoxy to seal against moisture (no need to sand between coats).

Apply three or more coats of two part polyurethane varnish for the final finish and to provide UV protection. I've used System 3 varnish because I know it is compatible with their epoxy but it is important to use polyurethane varnish because the alkyds in some other varnishes react with epoxy and the varnish doesn't harden. If you aren't sure, test on a piece of scrap wood.

Of course, a nice new teak cap will look even better but it is surprising how good an old piece of wood can look and it's a lot less than $2k.

As always, this is my opinion/experience, it's worth what you paid for it.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Spot on Jim, thanks for making my post more complete.

Avery, you're going to have to do a little research on what is available in your comfort zone for a day trip.

I built an entire 40x14 foot back deck out of mahogany, simply went to 84 lumber and bought it in 20 foot planks (5.5 inches wide, 1.5 inches thick at 1.94 per foot). I left it unfinished but scrubbed it yearly, it was still nice and golden brown after 5 years when I sold the house. 
I used the same stuff, milled it down and used it for handrails on my front stairs and porch, with 5 coats of varnish it looked beautiful.

All of it was less than 1800 bucks, so your 2k is a bit high.

Now, if you want to see some teak, here's the 'hip' on my boat:









You can find it out there.

For Ipe, use only carbide tipped tools

Joining planks for a toe rail should be done using a 8:1 scarf at the joint, and if you want to get decorative put a standard dutchman centered on the join line.


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## HighFly_27 (Oct 4, 2012)

The Last 4 Posts are Spot On and the other ones as well (good info.) !

Yes, the $ 2K is on the high side, was for $$ finished Teak and the 1st prices I found. i have been looking else where and have the price down to $ 1.2 K and the correct size. I have found 3 other teak suppliers, expect quotes back from them on Monday. Also, (now) I have 2nd & 3rd choices and not as expensive.

I will check out a portion of the toe rail as Geoff54 suggested, your thread gave me great info. (choice's) and put me on the right track (thank you). I did not have enough background to properly evaluate the toe rail but getting closer now. A couple days ago, I lightly probed it with a screw driver. The teak felt soft and showed a seperated grain. I thought the mean old Sun (UV's) had done a job on the wood over it's 42 years of life. I thought that 42 years would be about the expected life cycle of this wood, looks over the hill to me. 

I will take some close up picture's tomorrow. My camera can really show the grain structure in double micro. mode... so You All Will See what I see with an experienced eye (I don't have this eye). I will probe it a little deeper and see how decomposed it is below the surface.

Thanks (All) for Steering me in the Right Direction.

Avery


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## HighFly_27 (Oct 4, 2012)

*Re: Toe Rail ReChecked Today, Looks Better I Thought !*

Geoff54 and Everyone,

I think the Toe Rail will get a Pass. I went out and scrapped it with a screw driver and came up with decent looking wood .. just under the surface. I pulled & pushed on it to see what the strength was like, it felt fairly stiff (not weak). So, going full circle, per suggestion, the toe rail gets refinished. I think that it was recommended that the Toe Rail (T. R.) be removed and be completely redone. When I 1st looked at the T. R. I assumed that it was over the hill and due replacement, being it was a 42 YO T. Rail.

Today, I noticed that 1/2 of (on both sides) the Toe Rail Top Plate S.S. Strip is Missing. I see the hole imprint marks on the top of the teak toe rail, so it was there at one time. I'm wondering how common the -- S. S. Top Rail Strip is to find & replace it.

I took some pictures of the cabin top area and will be sending pictures of the chalky & cracking paint. I will send the pictures in the next thread & ask for recommendations.

Avery


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## HighFly_27 (Oct 4, 2012)

I took some pictures of the Cabin Top, it's paint is cracked and chalky.

I read the article about Refinishing at SNet., and have a general undertanding of what to do. Now, what would you do with the paint from the pictures you see. pictures. I've never did a lot of painting, other than painting my house and painting flat bed trailers I've built & touch up on Hvy. Equip. .

I see the Non (light blue) Skid Areas, are these (non slid) fairly easy to apply. I'd like to hear what's the best course of action. I will not do a thing until the major items are completed -- Rudder, 4 X 4 Hole, 2 Areas that have rotted wood below deck, and other listed items. 

Avery


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Avery,

Your enthusiasm is heartening -- really! It's great to see someone with the juice flowing, envisioning the day when everything is just right.

That said, slow down and take a breath or three. 

Don't get me wrong -- most of us have been there. The voice of reason (and experience) tells me that the only way to eat the elephant is one bite at a time. 

The best advice I can give you is to begin to prioritize your punch list, and then tackle all the top priority things first. After those are done then start moving down the list.

A1 priority would be those things that keep the boat afloat. (Fixing holes; inspect/service seacocks; inspect/repair/replace bilge pump(s); inspect/service shaft seal; etc)

A2 would be all other safety systems. (Inspect/install smoke and CO detectors; Inspect all boat wiring; test your VHF; etc.)

A3 would be propulsion (Inventory/inspect/repair all sails; inspect/repair/replace standing rigging; check out your aux as well -- unless you know for a fact the fluids were replaced recently and regularly, change your oil, coolant, and tranny fluid; etc.)

B priorities would be stuff like electronics.

C priorities would be the cosmetic stuff.

D priorities... Don't worry about them -- new A, B, and C priorities will always pop up to keep the D priorities from ever getting anywhere near the top of the list.

Hope you take this in the constructive manner it is intended.

Best,
PF


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## HighFly_27 (Oct 4, 2012)

Profin,

I'm with you and have set my A, B, C, List and similar to your's with pricing (high/ low) spread sheet.

In my other posts, I have a order of merit:

A: Repair/ Replace Rudder; repair 4 X 4 in. hole in stern; repair (2) structure (rotted) areas; clean & inspect the entire boat (carefully). 

Note: All the thru hull fiiting were just done 1 yr. ago, engine & drive overhaul & shaft packing completed a yr. ago. Engine & Trans. just had a complete service, dip stick has brand new oil showing on it. 

B. Complete check out of all equipment: A/C, Cold Box, Bilge Pump, Bowers, Fuel & Water Tanks, All Elect., Complete Check Out. The DC Panel needs to go, most switches are soft and wiring ends. Need to check out the smoke alarms & fire bottles, to include auto bilge pump. Check all the gages & instruments, knot meter is broke, etc. . The steering cables are soft to the cabin wheel, need replaced or tighten (?) .

C. Sails & Rigging, I have one old back stay cable to change, has two big old insulator connections where a high freq. ant. was mounted on the mast. 

D. I have 2 or 3 anchors to buy, they were taken by the former owner for his other boat. I have one stanchion that is bent and may need replaced (if not repairable). I will find some other things, but not (hopefully) major items and they will be added on to the list. Toe Rail needs redone, all the winches should be checked & serviced. 

D.a. I will need to do the bottom about 2 weeks prior to putting it in the water. I've been asking questions about the top side, it has cracked & chalky paint. I'd like to have an idea about what I'd be getting into (time & $$), it's still on the D.a. list. 

E. The cabin needs some cushions made up (missing) and a couple widows may / or could be replaced. I need to buy a base & hand held radio (VHF). I was advised to wait until about 2 months before I go out. The prices (used) go down every month on electronics, the newer stuff comes out & people up grading. This is the right idea, I will have the boat (nearly) done and know exactly what my budget is $$$ ? I need to find a dinghy (used) and mounting fixture or tow (?) rig. I'd like to add a drop-in swim ladder to give me access from the water level.

Closing.. I do need to a take a step back & take a take deep breath. However, I don't think I'm overwhelmed, this is not my 1st big project. It's my 1st sailboat repair & not in my usual comfort zone and learning one day at a time. 

My list is not a 100% yet, but I'm working on it; I'm doing all the important items 1st. 

Thanks for the Help,

Avery


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Move getting the ladder up at the safety level. 

As Porfin said, floats first, then safe. Then comfort, then pretty. 

Review what safe is, it pretty much touches everything.


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## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

Avery

We are pretty much in line with our projects. I initially wanted to replace the toerail and my deck was cracked. I attacked the deck first - spent the summer fixing it. Don't take it lightly - some of those cracks you'll have to open up into a V groove and fill it with epoxy fairing compound, others which are small crazings you just sand. Lots of work but the result is astonishing. I removed all the craks, faired, sanded, faired, sanded, then painted and Kiwi-Grip.
As for the toerails - there is a Brazilian wood called *Cumaru* which is readily available in the US (and here in Canada), it is better than Ipe for this purpose, and a lot cheaper than teak - its also known as Brazilian teak. It is used mostly for backyard decks and it is stable and weathers well. Great for toerail. I will eventually be replacing mine and have located a dealer that has 2X2 in 12 feet lengths.
Check out these sites below from Pearson 35 owners- it's a great site for getting to know projects for any boat. The second link is from the same site - a toerail done using Cumaru, but he did it with a ¾ by 2 inch stock size, even then it looks pretty nice IMO.

As it was said before have the project list by priorities, otherwise you'll burn out in no time.
Good luck.

Owners Projects

New Toe Rail


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Cumaru is another excellent choice for the toerail. I'm surprised these woods are so readily available in North America!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Highfly,
My teak toe rail is also in very poor shape (cracks, holes), I plan to fill and fair with epoxy and will use wood flour as an additive filler. Here is a source:

MAS Epoxies Wood Flour

It is amazing the repairs you can do with epoxy, and a good feeling when you bring back a piece of wood that most would think should be thrown out.

Regards


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Teak is definitely the best choice. There are some other less expensive woods if you can find them. Canarywood is one. Locust is very rot resistant. I would not use oak or mahogany. They are both subject to rot rather quickly if not completely sealed all the time which, as we know, is really not feasible. The characteristics of hardness, workability, and rot-resistance are not present in many woods.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

smurphny I'd have to disagree with you about mahogany being subject to rot. That's true of Philippine mahogany (luan) but not of South American mahogany. Unfortunately there are a number of woods being marketed as mahogany that include: Philippine mahogany, Indonesian mahogany, Santos mahogany and African mahogany. All have grains similar to the real thing and are fine for interior woodwork but some have drawbacks. African mahogany expands and contracts more, especially outdoors which can cause the finish to fail and luan is not as rot resistant. I haven't had the opportunity to work with Santos mahogany so I can't comment on it. That's why I specified South American mahogany in my original post.

I do agree with you that ANY wood used on a boat should be properly sealed before installation.

The real gem is Cuban mahogany, but that's a subject for another post. 

BTW, I learned the hard way with African/Indonesian mahogany (khaya). I still have about a thousand board feet in my shop, but it will only be used for interior projects.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

copacabana said:


> Cumaru is another excellent choice for the toerail. I'm surprised these woods are so readily available in North America!


I wouldn't call them readily available. But they can be found. My new favourite is Garapa. As a deck builder, I've installed a about 10,000 feet of of Ipe Decking, and just started working with Garapa. 
It's easier to work with, cheaper, and I find the grain to be more consistent. If I ever had to replace teak on a boat, I think it would be my first choice.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

I think teak is most people's first choice because it has been used in the marine industry for so long, not because it is inherently "better" than other woods. In my experience, the best wood for the outside of boats is Arariba, but just try finding it at your lumberyard!


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

There certainly are alternate woods to use in place of teak. It seems to be a crap shoot as to whether it is available anywhere nearby. I would love to try some of the woods you guys have mentioned. 

As far as the mahogany discussion goes, I guess I have just removed too much rotten mahogany over the years to ever choose it if something else is available. I've owned many wood boats and have dug out mahoganies of probably every species under the sun. On 20s-50s boats there was a lot of very high quality mahogany, beautiful tight grained stuff, but once it gets fresh-water wet in an end grain, it's just a matter of time until you can poke a knife through it with little effort. Just my opinion but given a choice as to a species for planking, topsides, decks, bulkheads, etc. mahogany would be pretty far down the list. It's best attribute is that it's beautiful when varnished and easy to work with.

In the construction industry mahogany is becoming more available for decking. Anyone using it is in for a sad surprise in not too many years. They may as well use white pine. Yellow pine is still a MUCH better wood for this and is also appropriate for boat structures. Long-leaf yellow pine, if you can find it, is almost as rot resistant as locust. It's ugly as the dickens but has good rot resistance. In the woods, locust can lay on the ground for many years without the slightest sign of rot. It's pretty amazing. Cedars are great but much too soft for most things. Firs/spruces all rot fairly quickly although some have excellent weight/strength ratios for spars and such.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

Hey HighFly!

Just took a look at your pictures - looks like you have a lot of sanding in your future. 

From the pictures, the wood looks sound and I would expect it to respond well to refinishing but it is very weathered and I really think it should be removed to seal it on all sides and then re-bedded (along with the other hardware). I know it's a PITA but you'll get better results, the actual refinishing will be easier off the boat and you can refit it, nice and watertight, over your new paint.

If the non-slip is painted on (looks like it) and sound, you might be able to scuff it up and paint on some kiwi grip or similar. But that crazed paint definitely needs to go so that you have a sound surface to paint. I'm no expert on paining fiberglass so I'll leave that for others to comment on but, in case you haven't found them already, here's a little light reading.

Good luck and keep us updated.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/85359-easiest-way-repaint-deck.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/86293-options-painting-my-deck.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/89184-kiwigrip-advice-needed.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/88949-fiberglass-textured-deck-repair-questions.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/85133-non-skid-worn-down-fiberglass.html


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Once the water gets in, oak goes black, right to the core.


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## wolfenzee (Jul 13, 2008)

I just replaced my Oak tiller with black locust and am very happy with it. I can't see why black locust isn't used more often, it is strong, durable, good looking and alot cheaper than "exotic" woods....maybe that's it, it's not exotic. My cap rail is a dark mahogany. If you want something that looks sort of like teak but is alot less expensive Silver Bali would work (just be careful because it can check, you can tell right of it is going to though). It is often called "poor man's teak" and is being used as an alternate for teak decks. I recently built a boom gallows, winch mounts, compass mount/bridge deck,companionway doors, mid-ship hatch and combing for deck hatch using 2" Silver Bali. When fresh the color looks like Balsa, when varnished and exposed to the sun it darkens up nicely. It's a hard wood, easy to work with chisels, planes, spoke shaves or router.I have worked extensively with the wood myself and am sitting here looking at the schooner Martha which was decked with it. Here is a discussion about it on the wooden boat forum. Silver Bali Wood









detailed info:
http://www.hardwoodlumbersuppliers.com/hardwood-lumber/silverballi.html
NOTE:There is a hard (used for boat building) and soft silverbali 
I personally really like the wood, it is supposed to have most of the characteristics of teak as far as strength, durability and rot resistance. Three of the qualities of teak it lacks, it's not as heavy, expensive and the lower silica content doesn't dull tools as fast (which makes it easyer to work with).


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I've often wondered why Locust is rarely mentioned for boatbuilding. In post and beam construction it is used for the pegs that hold joints together because of its strength but I don't think I've ever seen it cut and planed into dimensional lumber. If doing a teak replacement for something like a toe rail, I think it might work out really well. There is a LOT of it in the NE, at least down through NY. I once cut down a stand of it on LI to build a house and there is quite a lot here in the Adirondacks. It's puzzling why it usually winds up as firewood. By the way it makes GREAT firewood as well! Maybe it's the twisty nature of it that makes it hard to mill.


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## wolfenzee (Jul 13, 2008)

Locust is known to check so if you are going to use it on a bend like a toe rail you have to be "very" careful as to where the grain goes and whether or not it wants to check...look at the wood and the grain to see what it wants to do, if it doesn't agree with what you want to do you need to approach it differently. I don't know how much of a bend you have, ideally of course would be to cut out the wood to match the curve, the cap rail on my boat is 3/4" thick and 3" wide.....not the sort of thing you can bend so it was made in sections. What you have can be bent, it might have to be steamed, but with the size and length you might be able to get away with out bending, if you use the right wood.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The teak toerails on my boat are still in decent shape. Was just wondering why Locust seems to be ignored as a boat wood. Maybe it because of the grain as you have indicated. I'm going to have to rip out some pieces with my chainsaw, run it through the planer, and try working it to see what kind of qualities it has. Oak, as Brent mentioned, discolors as soon as water gets to it and it is not great at repelling rot. I'm wondering if Locust would not work for gunwales on small wooden boats instead of oak or less durable hardwoods. Waiting for someone to chime in here who has actually tried working with it.


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## wolfenzee (Jul 13, 2008)

When I broke my oak tiller I went over to the mill in the local shipyard and asked the old guy that ran it "What do you have in the way of exotic hardwoods for a tiller?" He responded "Black Locust is a pretty exotic hardwood, come back tomorrow". I came back the next day and he had a slab of Black Locust 18"x4"x12', we took my old tiller and cut out a piece with a grain that lined up and planed it down to 2" thick 7' long ($40). When I finished it off after sailing with it awhile it is now 6' long, rounded at the helm end, chamfered, w/ auto pilot stub, tiller brake and varnished. I have some pretty exotic woods on my boat, but this is one of the prettiest....It doesn't flex the way the oak did and I am alot more confident in it.


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## CorvetteGuy (Jun 4, 2011)

I replaced my very thin 40 y/o teak grab rails on the top side with cherry wood, the raw teak I needed to do the job was about $400 bucks. My father cut down a big ole cherry tree and had it milled into boards , I used 1 board cut 2 rails out of it and put it on the topsides, 5 years later it still looks great and I also oil all the other teak on the topside, the cherry holds the oil and look just like the rest of the teak. Good tight grain..


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## oysterman23 (Jul 22, 2011)

I'm with Caleb on this one. If you need top notch runs of teak and don't mind freight try Robert's Plywood in Deer Park Long Island.. Incidentally white oak is what made Old Ironsides hold up to all that cannon shot....and it ages well though its use for railings, rails etc that would be visible was limited to work boats in the age of wood. Locust is damn near immortal I still dig it out from old bungalow footings here on the South Shore...those posts went in about 1865-1900.....they rotted only at the point of air contact!
Epoxy is wonderful stuff, but when used as a sealer exposed to UV has No resistance to UV and must be coated with mulitple coats of clear finish or...one or two of urethane paint. Old growth or True Honduras or Cuban mahogany is bloody gorgeous marine wood glues beautifully shapes well, does not split like Teak can and though it greys has a moderate resistance to rot. Alot of people have it confused with what has been known as Philippine Mahogany or Luan which is really not very attractive has little figure and no comparable longitudinal strength.... When I was a kid the local custom boatbuilders would collect over any Cuban Mahogany they got a hold of....One thing though....quite unlikely your toe rails are uniform in angle and shape from stem to stern and likely need to be fitted and formed as you go...if you are not a carpenter or woodworker it is not a fun job...


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

Before making any decisions look at Sapele: Entandrophragma cylindricum.
It looks a lot like mahogany, used for boat building and flooring, has good rot resistance, finishes well and it costs $4.69 a board foot.
Dick


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

oysterman23 said:


> I'm with Caleb on this one. If you need top notch runs of teak and don't mind freight try Robert's Plywood in Deer Park Long Island.. Incidentally white oak is what made Old Ironsides hold up to all that cannon shot....and it ages well though its use for railings, rails etc that would be visible was limited to work boats in the age of wood. Locust is damn near immortal I still dig it out from old bungalow footings here on the South Shore...those posts went in about 1865-1900.....they rotted only at the point of air contact!
> Epoxy is wonderful stuff, but when used as a sealer exposed to UV has No resistance to UV and must be coated with mulitple coats of clear finish or...one or two of urethane paint. Old growth or True Honduras or Cuban mahogany is bloody gorgeous marine wood glues beautifully shapes well, does not split like Teak can and though it greys has a moderate resistance to rot. Alot of people have it confused with what has been known as Philippine Mahogany or Luan which is really not very attractive has little figure and no comparable longitudinal strength.... When I was a kid the local custom boatbuilders would collect over any Cuban Mahogany they got a hold of....One thing though....quite unlikely your toe rails are uniform in angle and shape from stem to stern and likely need to be fitted and formed as you go...if you are not a carpenter or woodworker it is not a fun job...


If the toe rails are anything like they are on my old A35, you are exactly right. They are not anywhere near uniform and have plenty of compound angles to deal with. It would be a chore to replace them.

I used to get my White Oak from Harned's Mill in Hauppauge. I hear they amazingly are still in business. There was also a yard in Bayshore, right off 5th Avenue, with sheds full of White Cedar and other boat woods. I forget the name. Back 40 years ago there were many good sources on LI but nowadays a lot of the traditional species are unavailable, at least in decent sizes. Geez, in Deer Park we used to get Chrysler Crowns, Royals, and Aces from a place called Marzak. He had Chrysler engines and parts from the 40s, all sealed in wax with Chrysler guarantees!


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## wolfenzee (Jul 13, 2008)

Flybyknight said:


> Before making any decisions look at Sapele: Entandrophragma cylindricum.
> It looks a lot like mahogany, used for boat building and flooring, has good rot resistance, finishes well and it costs $4.69 a board foot.
> Dick


Sapele is one of my favorite marine woods, it is easy to work, strong, durable, look super and doesn't have and issues (like checking or ungodly high price). It varnishes up very nicely. I just made some running light boards useing it.Talking to shipbuilders useing it for planking....it's alot easier to bend.


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## Coastalsailor48 (Dec 27, 2012)

SVTatia, I am a new member and must wait the seven days to send you a direct message. I am in the process of replacing all wood on my Pearson 33 that was damaged in hurricane last year. I am using Cumaru and would like to discuss with you. Could you please contact me? Ref blog for pics by my girlfriend: sailnchck.wordpress.com 
Thank you, John


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## oysterman23 (Jul 22, 2011)

I thought SMurphy might get a charge out of this text I found online re Locust and the name of the place in Bayshore was Kirkup's Lumber....

_The following paragraphs were published in the magazine, Scientific American (Volume 2, Issue 16), on January 9, 1847. The first part talks about the strength of black locust wood when used in wheels, and the final sentences talk about its resistance to rot.

The following notes relative to the duration of the locust wood (Robinia pseudo acacia,) have been made by M. Pepin, Jardin du Roi, Paris :

A number of trees were felled that had been planted from 40 to 50 years; but not more than one to five of those wheelwrights [makers of wheels] who came to purchase, appreciated sufficiently the locust, the others preferring elm.

Ultimately the locust was sold to the persons who knew its value, at one third higher price than the elm. The purchasers found that spokes made of the wood in question lasted two sets of felloes [wheel rims], and were likely to answer for a third. Under equal circumstances of wear and tear, spokes made of locust wood were perfectly sound, while those of oak required to be replaced.

M. Pepin further states that the ends of locust gate posts which had been in the soil for upwards of forty years were still not decayed.

This sort of wood employed as feet or supports to chests made of oak, proved sound, although the oak plank in contact with them had been thrice renewed; but oak supports decayed simultaneously with the oak planks composing the chests. Vine props of locust wood are greatly esteemed._


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