# Losing rudder at sea



## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

Two days ago my rudder blew off without warning at sea - what a bummer! I wish I had a full keel instead of just a fin keel; I tried balancing sails to no avail but as I was only 20 miles from an island in the Caribbean and in 60 feet of water I opted to drop teh hook and call for a tow. I might have been successful in using one of my interior doors and some poles to steer if I had been further offshore but it is awfully disconcerting to have no control at all. I got towed to a harbor and will get the boat hauled and inspected next week to see what caused the rudder to fall off! At least I'm at a dock (next to Morgan Freeman, of all people!) in a warm climate...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Zan...bummer! Hope you can get fixed up quickly. Keep us posted on what actually happened. I understand Morgan Freeman is almost as good a sailor as he is an actor. He even put together a stars cookbook to help the victims of Ivan in Grenada. Would be an interesting guy to chat with. 
Anyway...good luck Zan and keep us posted.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

How hard was the wind blowing to make the rudder blow off? Do you think you hit something, or was the rudderpost simply not strong enough? Did the post break, or did the blade simply drop off of it? What are you sailing? (So we'll know to be on the alert if we see one coming our way...) Please give more details.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I've read of using a drouge in combination with the sails on a fin keel boat.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

What kind of boat do you have and what caused the rudder to fall off???


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*KETCH'S RULE!*

It's a harrowing experience loosing steering. I lost steering last year or the year before (don't remember, the tide's going out) in a 50kt+ blow with a reef to leaward, I posted it somewhere on sailnet. Used the mizzen for steering.

Sounds like you did the right thing. Save the boat!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I read an article about Freeman I can't find right now, and as far as sailing goes, he's the real deal: started out in 18-footers in the late '60s and has something nice, like a Shannon or an Island Packet 40 range, now. Apparently, he does a lot of single-handing, and as he's about 70 now, he must be pretty fit.

Gee...I guess the article made an impression, if only because he was a sailor for 20 years *before* Driving Miss Daisy kicked him into the big leagues.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Well, I'd imagine that Morgan Freeman can certainly afford a nice boat... Winning an Oscar for Million Dollar Baby probably didn't hurt.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

It isn't totally unusual to break a rudder. I broke one in moderate conditions like 20 knots. The strains can be considerable.
I also know a guy who broke a new rudder halfway across the Tasman on the first leg of a solo circumnavigation on a H28.
I guess that is why we have to be able to say how we would replace it and why the Pacific race to Hawaii requires a tested replacement rudder.
As I recall 2/80 in the last ARC cross Atlantic rally had to be rescued after breaking rudders. They would have had safety inspections though I doubt they were out of water. Offshore you can't expect to be rescued.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Well, I'd imagine that Morgan Freeman can certainly afford a nice boat... Winning an Oscar for Million Dollar Baby probably didn't hurt.


Sure, but my recollection is that it's not a Swan or a Moody or some luxe yacht, but is a fairly standard production boat with some years on it. Like I said, I got the impression he's a real sailor who happens to act, not just a guy with a crew on call to take him out in 10 knots when he feels like getting served a beverage.

But I can't find the article.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Maybe if we are buying a boat with a spade rudder. The rudder should be dropped out of the boat and have the Rudder post magnafluxed looking for any stress cracks. Means having the boat on the hard and disassemblely of the steering system. 
But this is the one reason I don't like spade rudders. An emergency rudder should be carried on that type of vessel. 
But then again you should have some way of rigging emergency steering no matter what type of boat you have.
And how many people out there even think about such things?? Or any other kind of emergency?

Fire, Flooding, Man O'board, Lost of mast/steering, and MEDICAL. Do you have a working plan for any of those? Do you drill on them? Can you write a senario for any of those drills?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Some years ago, Morgan Freeman had Shannon Yachts custom build a Shannon 43, with some unique features. Here's a sistership sailing on Narragansett Bay:










And a view of Freeman's custom interior from Shannon Yacht's website: Shannon 43










I toured Shannon's factory while researching a prospective boat, prior to buying our current one. Shannon Yachts is in Bristol, RI - just a few miles north of our homeport. Bill Ramos, part company owner, talks very proudly of the boat they built for him . . . and rightfully so.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente said:


> Sure, but my recollection is that it's not a Swan or a Moody or some luxe yacht, but is a fairly standard production boat with some years on it. Like I said, I got the impression he's a real sailor who happens to act, not just a guy with a crew on call to take him out in 10 knots when he feels like getting served a beverage.
> 
> But I can't find the article.


A Shannon 43 with a custom interior is not a standard production boat IMHO...  From their website:



> *SHANNON SAILAWAY PRICE *
> Custom interior layout, with the standard sailaway features and equipment inventory as described herein.
> *$876,000*


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

I sail a 2003 Jeanneau 43DS and had it thoroughly surveyed prior to purchase by a very good and reputable surveyor who knows the Jeanneau and Beneteau lines very well. He did say that the rudder bearings were loose and they were replaced prior to my purchasing the boat; he also did a post-fix survey of the rudder and all other (minor) repairs.
I was motorsailing at the time this happened. I had the sails well-balanced but with two inexperienced ladies aboard who were somewhat frightened of heeling I put on the engine at 1800rpm and was comfortably running at about 6 knots in 40 feet of water. The first thing I noticed when things went wrong was that we'd gone 90 degrees off course and my genoa was suddenly sheeted on the wrong side. I turned ofif the autopilot and immediately noticed that there were no forces on the wheel; then I saw a black shark fin and realized what had happened. Engine in neutral, told the girls it was OK and then winched like crazy to get both sails in. Seas were about 6 feet and 15-18 knots of wind. After getting the sails down and checking the bilge plus rudder post from the emergency tiller hole I wanted to retrieve my rudder with the dinghy but the girl's panicked reaction to my wanting to leave the boat convinced to me forego that.
I managed to get another boater to relay a message to the charter company from which I'd purchased the boat and gave my position and request for a tow. They did their utmost, but another ship had gone aground (with a fatality) so priorities were elsewhere. This was 9:30am and we finally got a tow to Virgin Gorga at 5:30pm. I tried to balance the sails to at least do something but I think my only successful direction would have been downwind - the wrong way. A quick look at the chart showed me that I was about to drift from 60ft to 80ft so I dropped the anchor in sand (200ft of chain was sufficient to hold us, even with some heavy squalls passing through).
I haven't hauled the boat yet, since staying in the Marina is better than finding a hotel. Once my new rudder arrives we'll pull the boat and I will have it re-surveyed while the rudder is replaced.
There is no visible damage inside the boat, and the whole rudder is moving smoothly and freely. I did a quick look while at sea and didn't see anything remaining below the waterline and I'm not about to dive on it in the harbor as the BVI has no holding tank rules...
I put out 3 drogues with about 300 feet of old running rigging and some buckets and we still yawed back and forth at least 90 degrees at 3 knots. Since I still had engine and prop, if I had been further out or not within range of help I would have used an inside door, some old running lines as lashings and the emergency steering mechanism to rig a provisional rudder to hang from the pulpit over the transom/sugarscoop. But as there was no danger to anything except my pride and I would have had to pass around the dog islands (bad lee shores and no holding if the temporary steering failed). In this case I feel that doing a McGyver would have entailed higher risk to both my passengers and boat and the only things I would do differently if I were in the same situation would be to (a) retrieve the rudder and (b) drop the anchor while the bottom was still 40 feet.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Dropping the anchor when something goes wrong and your in shallow enough water for it to do some good is generally a good idea... It can prevent a situation from going from bad to dire...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Zan...sounds like you handled everything in a seaman-like manner with good sense. Nothing for your pride to be hurt about (your wallet is a different matter!). A 4 year old boat shouldn't be having the rudder fall off in benign conditions. It will be interesting to see what the analysis shows. Good luck on the fix!


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## XTR (Feb 28, 2007)

I wouldn't want to try to do the approach into the Bitter End with a door for a rudder. As close are you were, the tow seems the reasonable answer.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> A Shannon 43 with a custom interior is not a standard production boat IMHO...  From their website:
> 
> [/B][/SIZE][/FONT]


I stand corrected. Holy jumping, that's a hell of an expensive boat when you could get two Saga 43s or Shearwater 45s for the same price.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

You're right Valiente....but they are things of beauty, hand crafted to exacting standards and completely personalized. If you HAVE the bucks I'd be hard pressed to think of a nicer thing to spend $$ on. I really think they are nicer than the Morris's and Hinckleys which they compete with.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Think you have a nice boat? Well then, try walking down the 300 dock of my marina for a generous dose of boat envy. Comparable to millionare's row, it's a draw for the filthy rich. 

There are several Shannons, Hinckleys, Little Harbors, Camper & Nicholsons, Nautor Swans, Pacific Seacrafts, Halberg Rassys - to name a few. I feel humbled by these great boats and in constant awe over their beauty. It doesn't help having Ted Hood's boatyard and Hinckley's sales office next door either.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Not too long ago I saw an interview with Morgan Freeman on I believe 60 minutes or Sunday Morning. It was done from his boat. You could hear the pride in his voice as he described her. I had not known he was a sailor. It was very cool.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Zanshin...

(I'll try and translate...) We say here "Its better to be embarrased but alive than awarded but dead"...sort of...

You did what you had to do....safety, yours and passengers first...

My hat is off to you!!!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I hope that you were able to recover the rudder to find out exactly what happened. If not, I hope what is left can tell you what happened.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

The rudder is drifting off to the NW at present and might hit the gulf stream. So the only forensics are from what is left on the boat. Both surveyors are confident that they will be able to diagnose the reasons.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Good luck, and I hope it is easily repaired and preventable.


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## Pamlicotraveler (Aug 13, 2006)

We love our Shannon 43. We fell for the classic lines...and everything seems to be done the best way it could be done, and most of the boats have spent alot of time on the seas. We will be going to Rhode Island next week to see the factory for the first time, and I am looking forward to meeting founder and designer Walter Shultz and the others. Shannon only makes a few boats a year, so its definately not a production boat. Our 1988 is Hull #19 and I think the the latest is #52.

Morgan Freeman quote on 60 minutes about sailing...."If you live a life of make-believe, your life isn't worth anything until you do something that does challenge your reality. And to me, sailing the open ocean is a real challenge, because it's life or death. There's no quarter."


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Pamlicotraveler said:


> We will be going to Tiverton Rhode Island next week to see the factory for the first time, and I am looking forward to meeting founder and designer Walter Shultz and the others.


You may be a bit lost finding Shannon Yachts in Tiverton, since they're located in Bristol.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> You may be a bit lost finding Shannon Yachts in Tiverton, since they're located in Bristol.


That would be a problem...


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*Newport RI and Boats*



TrueBlue said:


> Think you have a nice boat? Well then, try walking down the 300 dock of my marina for a generous dose of boat envy. Comparable to millionare's row, it's a draw for the filthy rich.
> 
> There are several Shannons, Hinckleys, Little Harbors, Camper & Nicholsons, Nautor Swans, Pacific Seacrafts, Halberg Rassys - to name a few. I feel humbled by these great boats and in constant awe over their beauty. It doesn't help having Ted Hood's boatyard and Hinckley's sales office next door either.


I'll second that! I bought my boat late last year in Newport RI. I had the survey done at the American Shipyard in downtown Newport.

Ohh boy the boats they had there!

Barry


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## Pamlicotraveler (Aug 13, 2006)

Thanks TB...We are staying in tiverton which is over the bridge and where the boatyard is...


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## Jotun (May 4, 2006)

So Zan, tell us, have you talked with Morgan yet?


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

Jotun - yes, I have spoken with him. His boat has that comfortable liveaboard look to it, with just the right level of care that shows it is a working (and not a trophy) boat.

No news from Jeanneau on the rudder. I guess I'll just have to stay here at the marina a while longer.

While on the subject of personages, last week Walter Cronkite stayed at the marina on Tortola in his large ketch - I don't know what the model was, but it was certainly pretty!


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

I heard that a sloop owned by Cronkite had been damaged in Ernesto last fall.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Zanshin-
From the Shannon web pix, it looks like either they have one hell of a varnish crew or MF had mirrored overheads installed in his cabin. Please, don't tell me that's a varnish job!<G>
I'd also agree you did the right thin. You contained the damage, relieved the anxious crew, and got everyone and the boat back to port safely. Can't ask for more than that, unless you also get the tow boat to bring out a good dinner and live entertainment for the trip back.<VBG>

I'm placing odds on the post mortem showing concealed damage, i.e. that at some point in the charter life, someone whacked that rudder on something and left a flaw developing unseen, which simply bit you. (Not saying the charter company knew about it--but someone might well have hit it, or grounded on it, and told them nothing.) Still...if their maintenance logs show a report of rudder damage or grounding, that would be something else again.

Now your ladies have an adventure at sea to tell of.<G> Remember to thank your boat for being such a considerate partner, and showing you the problem while it was still in a very convenient place to get it fixed!


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

Hellosailor,

thanks for the post. The initial survey had fiberglass damage to the bottom of the rudder as well as a recommendation to replace the bearings on the rudder. Both were done and I had hired my surveyor again to check that all fixes were actually performed. I have pictures of the rudder after the repair added to this post.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Doesn't it seem just a bit too coincidental that your boat had previous rudder damage, issues with the bearings and then lost a rudder...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Ah, fiberglass damage. I've been a party to one rudder repair, which eventually led to replacement. As we kept looking deeper (Dremel and a router to explore after the weep holes kept weeping) we kept finding more problems, it is incredible how fragile the invisible inards of a rudder can be.

I suppose a solid titanium block would be too expensive?<G>

I really am beginning to appreciate the concept of skeg-hung rudders though.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

The boat yard's getting my rudders in shape as we speak . . .


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Seriously, for cruising sailboats, skeg hung rudders do have their advantages.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

Your boat has gained a bit of weight since I last saw a photo of it... 

Solid titanium isn't so good... I'd go with hollow titanium filled with foam, but build the stock into the titanium casting itself. No welds to fail or break.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

SD-
A hollow titanium piece, in the shape of a rudder and rudderstock, with no welds. Hmmm...an interesting way to start with a huge block of titanium and do an awful lot of laparascopic routing inside of it.<G>
The former Soviet submarine shops (they actually built titanium hulls) might be able to engineer it. We can get a government grant to explore the production potential? Whaddaya figure, about a half million, a quarter million, something like that per piece?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> SD-
> A hollow titanium piece, in the shape of a rudder and rudderstock, with no welds. Hmmm...an interesting way to start with a huge block of titanium and do an awful lot of laparascopic routing inside of it.<G>
> The former Soviet submarine shops (they actually built titanium hulls) might be able to engineer it. We can get a government grant to explore the production potential? Whaddaya figure, about a half million, a quarter million, something like that per piece?


I hope it'd come with a lifetime guarantee at least.

This would go nicely with my titanium boat design with Osmium for ballast material.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> Seriously, for cruising sailboats, skeg hung rudders do have their advantages.


I agree. Ignore the dirt...in two weeks it will be freshly bottom painted...


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> I hope it'd come with a lifetime guarantee at least.
> 
> This would go nicely with my titanium boat design with Osmium for ballast material.


What? No depleted uranium?

Seriously, I was reading the "Uranium" entry in Wikipedia this week, and it mentioned the use of DU as "aircraft control surface trim weights and in sailboat keels".

Has anyone ever heard of this actually being used? Never mind the radiation...I would worry about uranium oxide, as uranium "rusts" pretty easily.


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

Valiente, Du was used by some(few) IOR racers in the 70's but was prohibited due to cost and availabilty. IOW, only the rich racers could buy an unfair advantage.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Veliente, I think it was Berte Roos who used spent uranium in his keel in one of the around-the-world-the-short-way solo races. It's a perfectly good material just damned expensive and not generally sold on eBay, so he convinced the South African government to _lend _it to him.

He lost his keel coming around Antartica, never did return it. "Ooopsie".

But for a much more reasonable price, you can buy tungsten, which is twice as dense as lead and available on the open market. Nice way to load a core low down in your keel and add more weight, without making things any bigger.

Ain't gonna be cheap though.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Osmium is denser than Uranium IIRC. Also, it isn't residually radioactive... 

Tungsten has a density of 19250 kg/m3, lead is 11340 kg/m3, *Osmium is 22610 kg/m3*, and Uranium is 19050 kg/m3. As you can, Osmium is definitely the way to go...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Osmium is denser than Uranium IIRC. Also, it isn't residually radioactive... 

Tungsten has a density of 19250 kg/m3, lead is 11340 kg/m3, *Osmium is 22610 kg/m3*, and Uranium is 19050 kg/m3. As you can, Osmium is definitely the way to go...

BTW HelloSailor, Osmium is significantly denser than Tungsten and actually almost twice the density of lead (199.4% as dense). Tungsten is only 70% denser than lead.


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## JagsBch (Jan 19, 2007)

The Rudder on my 29' Islander has to be repaired. I snapped the rudder on the mirage while sailing @ Julington Creek. The girls insisted that we motor over to the 27' Tartan and take it out since the day was still young. Now I have to repair not one but 2 rudders. 

I was told on the Islander I could just filet the rudder down past the fiberglass and composite material used as filler, and just weld a new piece to the good steel when I come to it in the filet proccess. Plan on working on the rudders next week. 

The mirrage rudder is hollowed out I was thinking about maybe putting a piece of aluminum in it to strengthen it.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

WooHoo, I just received word that my rudder has landed here. I have ended up paying almost as much in air freight, multiple customs clearances, expedition fees, and other sorts of taxes, fees, tariffs as I did for the new rudder and I have no idea what it is going to cost tomorrow to haulout the boat and put in the new one but after just shy of one month of waiting I no longer care!

I'll post the pictures from the haulout and the analysis of the pros repairing the boat as well as the (new) surveyor on what caused the previous rudder to fail.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

After all that, and remembering what happened last time I waited for a rudder, I only hope they properly crated it and sent you the right one! 

Good luck.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Good luck...hope it came through customs and shipping okay.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Good luck Zan...keep us posted!


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

The rudder arrived in perfect shape and I had the boat hauled, put up on the hard, rudder installed and put back in the water without a problem. I went sailing today for the first time and am amazed at the difference in boat handling.

I can pretty much categorically state that the previously repaired rudder damage must have been caused by pretty severe contact with ground, severe enough to have caused some sort of twisting or bending of the rudder. It might not have been visible to the eye, but I did notice a 1+ knot speed difference between port and starboard tacks as well as a significant difference in angles to the wind that I could run. I attributed this to other factors, but today proved differently.

I had 2 people on board as guests who had never sailed before, so I didn't run the boat through all her paces. I started off with the 3rd reef of the genoa and the rough equivalent on the main since the weather report stated 18-20 knots of wind and I didn't want to heel too much for my newbie guests. The wind ended up being 25knots constant with gusts over 30 so the reefing choice wasn't a bad one. I've sailed in identical seas and wind with the "old" boat and the newly ruddered one sailed 1knot faster on ALL points of sail, plus the sails were well-balanced most of the time, with the old rudder I would have had to use very significant amounts of weather helm for the same course(s).

All in all I'm very happy with the "new" boat and think that the mystery of the rudder problem is closer to being solved - it would seem to be more of a previous-damage-through-ground-contact issue than a systemic or engineering problem.

Something missing in this picture...









4 layers of primer (Note Morgan Freeman's "Afrodesia" in the background)









Then 4 more layers of antifouling


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Thanks for the pix and the report Zan...glad to hear of the great improvement. Your probably not in the mood for philosophy right now...but would you buy a boat out of charter again? If so...anything you'd do differently as a result of this experience? 
guess you'll be headed south now...enjoy!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

It sounds like the boat had some slight rudder damage or that it had significant rudder damage that was repaired somewhat successfully. In either case, it sounds like the "repaired" state was close enough to pass visual muster, but obviously, if you've gained an entire knot in boat speed under the same basic conditions, something was wrong.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> ...but would you buy a boat out of charter again? If so...anything you'd do differently as a result of this experience? ...


 I think that this could have happened on a private sale as well - but I do think that the charter company must have noticed something when they repaired the rudder and replaced the bearings prior to my purchase - and that they probably thought it was "OK" and opted not to fix it or tell me. That, in my opinion, was negligence in order to make a buck (well, a lot of bucks).

I would buy a boat out of charter again. But I would go through the survey report or accompany the surveyor with a very different mindset from that which I had this purchase. I would play _avocato del diabolo"_ and on any damage would think "what is the worst that could have happened that could have been covered up this way" and drill down on it. In this case I assumed that evidence of light damage was restricted to light damage, not heavy damage repaired to look like only light damage.
My perception told me from the outset that there was more to the different behaviour on port and starboard tacks but I was convinced by the salesperson, surveyor and forum denizens (I can't recall if I posted my question here or in another forum) that I was wrong. I should have trusted my gut feeling.

I have learned that the survey is an essential and important part of the purchase process and shouldn't be treated as a "yes/no" type of decision tool - the surveyor noted some signs that I should really have followed up on. Any nicked or dinged rudder on future boats will be pulled and examined minutely. Any signs of contact with more than water on a keel will be examined with even more care.
I'm not particularly gullible, but I actually believed the salesman's explanations. Shame on me. I won't make that error again.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Thanks for the honest take on things Zan...What happened to you has happened to many when desire to own "the boat" overwhelms our usually rational behavior! Been there!! (G) I'm sure your tale will help others similarly smitten in the future.


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## maxingout (Mar 28, 2007)

When I was cruising in New Zealand, I saw a French production catamaran that required two new rudders. The stainless steel rudder shafts were severely pitted at the bearing where they entered the hull. The shafts looked like the serrated edges of postage stamps, and it was only a matter of time before they both would be lost at sea at an inopportune moment. The french catamaran company shipped new rudders to Whangarei, New Zealand.

The problem with the rudders was electrolysis. Very impressive what stray currents can do to rudder stock.

Cheers,

Dave
Exit Only

Maxingout.com


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## chrondi (Mar 24, 2004)

Sorry Zan but I totally disagree with the view that it is *you*, i.e. the victim, to blame for not finding out the flaw with the rudder. Shame on the charter company that sold the boat without noting that the rudder had hit ground and pity for the surveyor who should have ordered the whole mechanism disassembled for in-depth investigation. Their negligence not only caused you unforeseen expenses and waiting idle and useless for a month but exposed your life, along with that of your two female passengers, to great danger indeed!


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