# Thinking of creating a liveaboard marina on BC Coast



## BlaZespinnaker (Aug 6, 2015)

Business plan calls for initial setting up the breakwater plus a dozen or so slips with privacy barries in between. Very basic facilities at the start (electrical, washroom, showers, laundry, very high speed wifi). Revenue from slips will be used to add more slips over time.

My thoughts are that initial customers will pay a deposit up front that will allow them some manner of profit sharing / advisory capacity. They will have option of being paid back sooner rather than later.

Pipe dream? The premise is that there are people who work remotely, love the water and don't want to pay silly amounts for skyrocketing real estate. 

Challenges I see are location/government/aborginal approval, stigma (divorced middle aged men), and minimzing dock drama (the worst thing about liveaboards is putting up with your roomates). 

Ideally, the marina will be a real community of well educated folks and families who can successfully work remotely and provide value via knowledge work. Fiber optic wifi will be an initial required resource. Will also cater to retired demographic.

Love to hear your thoughts.

Cheers,

Blaze.


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

Unless you're an enrolled member, forget about getting tribal approval on First Nation land. If you're not on First Nation land, that shouldn't matter, unless your fiber optic network trench runs across tribal land.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think you're facing some big obstacles...

Where exactly did you want to set this up?


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## BlaZespinnaker (Aug 6, 2015)

Yeah, first nations is tuff! I have a few contacts. My thoughts are partnering. Marinas are really great for job creation for first nations. It also gives them an obscene amount of control relative to other types of developments (no 99 year land leases they have to cough up, etc)

Mosquito Creek I think is a model that is really amazing.


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## BlaZespinnaker (Aug 6, 2015)

As to where, that's a hard one. It'd have to be somewhere along the BC coast that has access to fiber optic. Mostly I'm trying to determine demand at this point.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Sounds interesting, kind of, I'm very seriously thinking about moving west again to live aboard, but you lost me with this part,

"My thoughts are that initial customers will pay a deposit up front that will allow them some manner of profit sharing / advisory capacity. They will have option of being paid back sooner rather than later."

Pay by the month with a reasonable yearly maintenance fee would be more my style, possibly some yacht club style volunteer duties. I just wouldn't want to be tied in.
Sounds cool if you attract the right crowd and run it like a business.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Unless you can build a breakwater for a great deal less than anywhere else on the planet, even 1200 slips aren't going to do much to pay that expense back in a timely manner.
As for privacy barriers in between, I wouldn't put my boat in a slip with walls on both sides. It would be like living in a box.
It's always nice to see people thinking of adding a marina, especially a live aboard marina, instead of closing them for a condo/private slip situation, but you are going to have to do a lot more research to see if your idea can pan out.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

To start a 'Mosquito Creek' style facility from scratch in any populated area in BC (where your market and facilities might be available) would be a multi year multi million (tens of millions?) dollar venture. Never mind First Nations, getting Fisheries and Oceans approval for a breakwater could be a deal killer right there.

Sorry.. you'd nearly have to be Jimmy Pattison to pull this off.


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

I a have a friend who owns a marina and he sure can drone on about how much hassle the foreshore lease is and how any changes open up the whole can of worms again

And its my understanding that liveaboard in just another one of those monster governmental obstacles...

Having said all that, it does sound like a great dream. We ran Shaw cable down to our temporary slip in Victoria and it made all the difference in being able to make a few bucks this winter.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Around here they are tearing Marinas down and building condo's certainly not building new Marinas, not sure if it translates to your situation but certainly a trend. I know when I was racing cars from time to time someone would come up with the notion of building a racetrack, and that's another level of the "deep pockets" Faster refers to. Every once in a while it actually gets done but only with a short term commitment from CART or similar sanctioning body then its passed around between a group of really rich guys that want to say they own a racetrack. Never the money maker everyone thinks it would be.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Don't know what "officialdom" is like in BC - here in NZ we had a fellow with a similar dream (not 12 berths mind you) for a marina where I lived. After ten years, many $m, a vast array of court appearances and huge public resistance he was sent packing in the latter part of 2015, the general consensus being "You wanna do what?!?!" I believe he now has to pay all the court costs which will make him a few more $m less rich.

Even if approval where achieved from the controlling local authority, such a venture would cost millions, to be initially shared by 12 pretty rich people. How many pretty rich people want to live on a yacht?

Good luck.


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## sharkbait (Jun 3, 2003)

Jammer Six said:


> Unless you're an enrolled member, forget about getting tribal approval on First Nation land. If you're not on First Nation land, that shouldn't matter, unless your fiber optic network trench runs across tribal land.


Smallpox blankets worked before. Maybe you could try Dengue.


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

If a marina would work at a given location on tribal land, the First Nation in question has no reason to partner with a non-tribal member.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Jammer Six said:


> If a marina would work at a given location on tribal land, the First Nation in question has no reason to partner with a non-tribal member.


We certainly didn't find the First Nation people to be very sharing. A moose died destroying a borrowed, brand new, 9 passenger van up by Whitehorse.
The First Nation people acted like we were poachers, there to steal the local wildlife rather than seeing it for the accident it was. I mean, we almost died killing that moose and yet they wouldn't share any of the meat with us at all. Now that's just downright inhospitable.


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## utchuckd (Apr 4, 2010)

May be better off finding an existing small marina and buying it out to convert it to what you want.


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## BlaZespinnaker (Aug 6, 2015)

Well, I have some sympathetic folks inside government that are actually willing to actually push for this. The First Nations folks I talk to are willing to partner for access to capital plus they don't really have anyone that wants to run a marina. I'll be the first to admit both sets of contacts are not the ultimate decision makers, but they are advocates and can make introductions.

Note that there is a drive to reduce the proliferation of mooring buoys as they leads to land owner complaints of wrecks just offshore. However, I (and others) think that drive might be more reasonable if there is a sensible alternative.

Buying an existing marina makes no sense as you'd have to convince a pretty set of very very entrenched folks to change things up dramatically.

As for the complaint about 'box' slips, I can assure you, box slips attract a much much higher rate of slip fees. For those who really want a nice view of their slip mate, maybe we'll have low walls. 

There are a lot of factors to costs in building breakwaters.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

BlaZespinnaker said:


> As for the complaint about 'box' slips, I can assure you, box slips attract a much much higher rate of slip fees. For those who really want a nice view of their slip mate, maybe we'll have low walls.


I'm really curious, as somebody who has lived aboard pretty much full time since 1969 (never mind that I've managed a couple of marinas during that time), how much time you have spent living aboard a boat in a marina?
I have NEVER seen a slip with a 'privacy wall' in any marina anywhere on this planet. If you are going to live like that, why not just buy a house with a fence or hedge? One of the best things about living aboard a boat is the LACK of walls and obstructions surrounding where one lives, which would block the view and breeze.
I wish you luck, but I think you're completely wrong about what liveaboard folks want.


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

capta said:


> The First Nation people acted like we were poachers, there to steal the local wildlife rather than seeing it for the accident it was. I mean, we almost died killing that moose and yet they wouldn't share any of the meat with us at all. Now that's just downright inhospitable.


I can't imagine why.


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## BlaZespinnaker (Aug 6, 2015)

Well, to be frank, one reason that there are not a lot of higher end liveaboard marinas is simply because few people with any real money would want to live in them. If you have money (100K for a reasonable boat), having to deal with the 24/7 drama of slip mates isn't something you're going to put up with. You're not in college anymore.

Walls also provide areas for storing more things.

And I haven't lived in a marinas as much as you, obviously, but I have had a slip/shed. I can assure you, it was total luxury and I paid a significant premium. Never having to deal with slipmates rubbing up against my boat when they were entering/exiting was a favorite. Not having to deal with the mess they'd make on the docks.

I have a sailboat now though and it's hard to find such thing that fits my mast. 

I will agree though, that there might be a sensible height to the walls. I'd love to figure out a way to just have walls and no side docks (at least for some slips), but I'll be the first to admit that won't work for all boat configs.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

BlaZespinnaker said:


> Well, to be frank, one reason that there are not a lot of higher end liveaboard marinas is simply because few people with any real money would want to live in them. If you have money (100K for a reasonable boat), having to deal with the 24/7 drama of slip mates isn't something you're going to put up with. You're not in college anymore.
> 
> Walls also provide areas for storing more things.
> 
> ...


The slip sheds you refer to are around here but only on much older Marinas and only for power Boats, sailors just can play that game.
More important than this is they are the worst kind of fire trap, they are invariable wood structures that just flash and spread in a horrible way, lives lost sadly in some cases. Not to mention fire codes would not allow such structures to be built today. You have an interesting design challenge here, its a lot easier to build something tried and true


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## BlaZespinnaker (Aug 6, 2015)

Never seen a boat shed made out of anything other than aluminum. But, that's just me I guess. There are covered marinas that work for sailboats but not a local one I have access to.


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## newt (Mar 15, 2008)

Unless you have a lot of money, I know of marinas up and down the coast of BC that are dying not because of Condos but because people don't want to live in the isolation. I would pick up one of those, hopefully close to where people are spreading out, and make it work.


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## BlaZespinnaker (Aug 6, 2015)

for example? it cant be too isolated as it would require fiber optic speeds. otherwise you might as well just off grid on a mooring ball.

also, if they are dying, than it probably wouldn't work. Why don't they just add liveaboards? I'm willing to accept there simply is no demand for this. Just because I really want it doesn't mean everyone else does.

What I don't accept is that it's not doable, assuming there is demand. Jumping through hoops is easy, just need a little faith, hard work, and inventiveness.

And given so many folks on mooring balls these days and skyrocketing real estate plus remote work opportunities, it seems there should be demand.


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

The last time (probably sometime in the early 70s) I told someone I wouldn't accept that something wasn't doable, or that there was nothing I couldn't do, Dad suggested that if that were the case, then I should just join the Oakland Raiders. He thought quarterback would pay the most.

It turns out that there are some things that are categorically, undeniably, scientifically, absolutely undoable.

Now, if you're the kind of guy that likes to dig for gold under a waterfall in Northern Canada while on scuba swimming into the current, then I have a challenge for you: find a First Nation that will let you build a liveaboard marina on their land and install fiber optic cable. There is, in fact, a few such opportunities, but I'll bet you won't pay the price.

I admit I have an ulterior motive to this suggestion. And I'm going with the odds, and betting against you.

Newt! I haven't seen you since they ran you out of SA! I figure you changed your name, and I don't blame you.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

BlaZespinnaker said:


> .....
> 
> What I don't accept is that it's not doable, assuming there is demand. Jumping through hoops is easy, just need a little faith, hard work, and inventiveness.
> 
> .....


.. and money, lotsa money. And somehow I don't think the 20+ boats anchored off Kits beach will be rushing to sign up for moorage anyhow.

There are marginal remote marinas, some dead, some clinging to life, mainly in the Broughtons.. probably not your target area.

If it was bureaucratically and politically feasible more marinas would accommodate liveaboards - with or without walls .. as it is, the few that do generally aren't accepting any more. While this might ostensibly lead to a demand for you and your plans, the next issue would be 'where exactly'?


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## BlaZespinnaker (Aug 6, 2015)

I don't think money is the real challenge (assuming demand, money is always there whether via co-op or investors), the real challenge is probably a combination of location and first nations approval. All the spots I've seen that make sense are on aboriginal territory. That being said, I don't find dealing with first nations that hard. You just need to have a very healthy respect for the fact that this is their land and they are just letting us live here.

Government really has to cough up some kind of alternatives if they want to deal with folks living off anchor / mooring balls. Just shutting them down with no place to go is definitely not good government at all.

Location is probably along the sunshine coast somewhere or howe sound. Another interesting possibility is northern vancouver island. Telus is building up there. South island is good too, though it's already pretty dense with marinas.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

BlaZespinnaker said:


> ...
> As for the complaint about 'box' slips, I can assure you, box slips attract a much much higher rate of slip fees. For those who really want a nice view of their slip mate, maybe we'll have low walls.
> ...


Yuck.

It sounds like you're new to sailing? You're totally missing the point. First, a lot of liveaboards (who simply live aboard, not sail or cruise) do so because of the perception that it's less expensive than living on land. Many of those who don't live aboard and who are dock kings and queens like the idea of being able to party with slip neighbors, set up the BBQ, lawn chairs and plants on the bulkhead. Some of us who like to sail enjoy the camaraderie while in the slip, cocktails over the cockpit, knowing that a neighbor we've befriended will keep an eye on the boat when we aren't there, will call us if anything is amiss and we do the same in return. You can't easily do that if your boat is behind a wall.

The thought of sitting in my cockpit after returning from a day sail, sipping my wine while eating dinner and watching the sun set behind my...wall. Well.

If you remove all those from your intended potential customer base, you aren't left with very many who would want to encase their boat in an expensive slip.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I can't even imagine an aesthetic solution that doesn't look like living in shoeboxes.

What about ventilation? What about fire risk? What about firefighting? What about reduced area efficiency with no more shared fingers? What about hand rail requirements with a solid surface? Reduced access to pilings for mooring and ripped out cleats? What about spiderwebbing in heavy weather?



BlaZespinnaker said:


> Well, to be frank, one reason that there are not a lot of higher end liveaboard marinas is simply because few people with any real money would want to live in them. If you have money (100K for a reasonable boat), having to deal with the 24/7 drama of slip mates isn't something you're going to put up with.


I don't think you have a good grip on what "higher end" boating is. It isn't 100k.

Bad idea.

No wait. Yep. Really bad idea.


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

When you run into resistance with the First Nation, try this: offer to run fiber optic cable to every structure on the res.


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## BlaZespinnaker (Aug 6, 2015)

Great guys to work with:










http://www.lynnwoodmarina.com/wp-content/uploads/boatshed.jpg

lynnwoodmarina.com

I love sitting back on my boat and enjoying a sunset as much as the next. That's why I have a sailboat and why there are lovely places to sail to. However, I'd also like a dock where if I'm sleeping I don't want to have to worry about someone rubbing their boat up against mine and waking me up. Security will not depend on fellow dock mates. Everyone will have their own secure door.

if everyone had at least 100K boats, that definitely is higher end liveaboard marina. If you know a "liveaboard marina" with that kind of stat, I'd love to hear it

I think there's some comments here, which while I appreciate the effort, are a bit knee jerk. This is not a marina for day sailers, but rather 24/365 liveaboards who can afford real boats. There is a reason these marinas don't exist, and that's because you have to put up with dorm room type living conditions.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

BlaZespinnaker said:


> Great guys to work with:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aren't these just storage sheds, I don't know but would assume occupancy would prohibited or at least undesirable, Gas In one of those buildings, Class 1 electrical etc. etc. What are the regulations? are you suggesting something not allowed by building occupancy and Zoning codes, forget about the natives try getting a fire code rewritten.
Allowing someone to live in a structure such as that would be another level than simply allowing live aboards.


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## BlaZespinnaker (Aug 6, 2015)

I know first hand that they have some liveaboards in them, not sure how rigourously up to code it is. A lot of day sailors. They are paying by the square foot. A significant premium. 

My vision isn't so much a shed exactly, I was mostly just trying to show this because a) there is demand for this sort of thing, b) they are practical, c) they are aluminum, d) it's happening right here in BC, e) it's a first nation company which can help smooth building this sort of thing.

I think walls would be better, tbh. Especially given ventiliation issues.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

I think the only way you would ever see this happen would be to start with an existing marina that already has some infrastructure and more importantly the zoning and "grandfather" clauses.
I freely admit I don't know much about working on the water in BC but I've done a lot of it in Ontario, the rules and regulations you have to jump through to have anything done on a shoreline will almost defeat you.
I've done a lot of work in the big "rv" parks where they have big park model rigs permanently set on concrete pads. The money involved in those operations is huge! These are places where people buy in and live all summer, usually winter in the same kind of place in the states.
I used to do the big limestone shoreline emplacements. Dug a few septic systems for them while we had the equipment on site.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

albrazzi said:


> Aren't these just storage sheds, I don't know but would assume occupancy would prohibited or at least undesirable, Gas In one of those buildings, Class 1 electrical etc. etc. What are the regulations? are you suggesting something not allowed by building occupancy and Zoning codes, forget about the natives try getting a fire code rewritten.
> Allowing someone to live in a structure such as that would be another level than simply allowing live aboards.


Those structures pictured are 'boathouses' - covered moorage for power boats. Some may have accommodation 'loft' areas in areas where the boat doesn't require the clearance. Living aboard a boat in those boathouses would typically be very dark and IMO a bit depressing.

Obviously a boathouse is a great solution for boats with a lot of exterior wood, and equally obvious not something many sailboats would fit into (though a friend once used a large boathouse to work on a Tahiti Ketch.. he could spin the boat around in there and left the rig up too!)

My image of what Blaze envisions is berths lined with privacy walls. I doubt many liveaboards would appreciate being 'closed in' when the point for many is to be living much more 'outdoors and in tune with nature'.

Given his target market I think a floathome community (like Mosquito creek's new areas) has a better shot at fruition, but the buy-in is much higher than 100K even in the exisiting rural, lower scale floathome areas on the river.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Faster said:


> Those structures pictured are 'boathouses' - covered moorage for power boats. Some may have accommodation 'loft' areas in areas where the boat doesn't require the clearance. Living aboard a boat in those boathouses would typically be very dark and IMO a bit depressing.
> 
> Obviously a boathouse is a great solution for boats with a lot of exterior wood, and equally obvious not something many sailboats would fit into (though a friend once used a large boathouse to work on a Tahiti Ketch.. he could spin the boat around in there and left the rig up too!)
> 
> ...


I just Goggled it and that's living right there. Around here (Hurricane Territory) not practical, but where you get "regular" storms what an Idea.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

BlaZespinnaker said:


> ...
> lynnwoodmarina.com
> ...
> 
> I think there's some comments here, which while I appreciate the effort, are a bit knee jerk.


After seeing that picture I've changed my original opinion from "yuck" to "ewww."



BlaZespinnaker said:


> ...
> 
> This is not a marina for day sailers, but rather 24/365 liveaboards who can afford *real boats*.


Wow. That just insulted oh...almost everyone...on this forum whether they have a day sailor or not.


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## BlaZespinnaker (Aug 6, 2015)

I've never really seen the attraction to float homes, personally. I don't think they're aiming at the boating crowd but rather people wiling to put depreciating money for waterfront.



> Wow. That just insulted oh...almost everyone...on this forum whether they have a day sailor or not.


If it helps, I currently have a cheapo sailboat at the moment as well. That said, I recognize that there is a profound difference between a min 100K boat and a used 5-40K boat and what you're willing to put up with when you own the former. If you're living at a marina and pay a significant slip fee, you want a certain level of decorum. Nobody getting drunk on the docks, everyone with full insurance, etc etc.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think to be living literally 'on the water' with your boat tied to your front porch would be pretty amazing. Lots of challenges and it's not an inexpensive way to live, but for me (were I alone) it would be an option. But I'm not (alone) and it isn't....

Maybe your privacy walls should be double pane Lexan with internal Venetian blinds - let the tenants make the choice. 'Course you'd have to bump your clientele up to the min 200K crowd so they can afford it


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

BlaZespinnaker said:


> ...
> 
> If it helps, I currently have a cheapo sailboat at the moment as well. That said, I recognize that there is a profound difference between a min 100K boat and a used 5-40K boat and what you're willing to put up with when you own the former. If you're living at a marina and pay a significant slip fee, you want a certain level of decorum. Nobody getting drunk on the docks, everyone with full insurance, etc etc.


Well. Interesting bit of logic. Best of luck.

Have you floated this idea out on the other sailing forums? I'd love to see the responses.


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## BlaZespinnaker (Aug 6, 2015)

Donna_F said:


> Well. Interesting bit of logic. Best of luck.
> 
> Have you floated this idea out on the other sailing forums? I'd love to see the responses.


It's a fair point and from the reaction here I think I have a better appreciation as to why there are not a lot of dedicated "liveaboard marinas".

I'd like to think though, at the very least, everyone should be pushing back on the government and their crackdown on anchor/mooring balls boats until they help build more marinas by providing more friendly government legislation.


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

If you say so.

I don't think you realize what you sound like, or that you realize that what you sound like is going to affect whether or not you get _anywhere_.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

BlaZespinnaker said:


> Great guys to work with:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see security an issue from those in the marina, at least from those in them. Every marina I have been in has not had issues unless it is from those near buy. Has nothing to do with the cost of the boats, and some of the worst scumbags I have ever met have been rich. Heck I don't even lock my boat up where it is now. Not a great neighborhood, but safe. I do know of a marina not far from me that has problems, but it is because of the bars near buy, so folks make themselves at home in boat cockpits, and inside. I would lock up there. But where I am now I just told the dock master if she needs to move the boat, it is open.

And I don't see the comments as knee jerk, your being insulting, and suggesting that folks would want to live in a windowless cave? There are lots of marinas with expensive boats, I doubt they have any less crime, and suggesting it comes from liveabords is very insulting. The above marina looks like a u-lock storage facility with cheap steel sheds built on top of docks, certainly not someplace someone with $100,000+ boats would want to live and obviously not for sailboats. (how would you get a 60 foot mast into one of those home depot sheds?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Paul.. to clarify.. the 'steel sheds' in the shot are actually aluminum-sided boathouses with rolldown doors. This marina and a sister down the harbour offer covered moorage, open moorage and float home accommodation. Some of the boat houses have small lofts apartments as well.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Faster said:


> Paul.. to clarify.. the 'steel sheds' in the shot are actually aluminum-sided boathouses with rolldown doors. This marina and a sister down the harbour offer covered moorage, open moorage and float home accommodation. Some of the boat houses have small lofts apartments as well.


Still does not look very welcoming at all. I don't see any windows at all in the photo, so I don't see how one could get a Certificate of Occupancy (or whatever the Canadian equivalency is) and does not seem they are taking advantage of being on the water as far as living on goes. I know there are some in other marinas, normally only a portion of the marina. Down in the southern US they have a lot of covered slips due to the southern heat and strong sun but they don't have sides. Of course they don't normally fair very well in storms. Give me open slips with a view of the water. If I don't like my neighbor, I can move! It is a boat after all.


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