# Documentation



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

We''re in the US. I''m British, my wife is American so we can''t document our boat as joint owners (unless we form a company somewhere at significant expense). I now know that is not compulsory to document so my question to experienced cruisers is: What would be the advantages of documenting our boat ? ~ Chris


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Chris, it depends on where you intend to sail...and which official greets you at the dock, to some extent. E.g. some of the officials in the French Antilles (that would be St. Martin, Martinique, Guadaloupe etc.) get pissy when a boat shows up with U.S. state registration (I''m assuming that''s the alternative you are considering...) while other times it isn''t a big deal. Most Caribbean island nations are accepting of any paper, it seems, so as to clear you in and have you visit the shops.

If you''re heading further afield, you might want to check with the appropriate official - usually the naval attache'' - at the nearest Embassies (not Consulates) of a few major stops along your route (e.g. France, Australia, etc.).

Sorry to preach a bit outside sailing boundaries, but you really should have mutually arranged wills as spouses. And that will convey property outside of probate, in which case documenting in one partner''s name passes ownership to the other. That plus a Power of Attorney -or- a simple, notarized statement from your wife, allowing you to operate the U.S documented vessel as you see fit, should be all you need to cover emergencies outside the U.S.

Jack


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

...well, I''m informed that we aren''t required to ''state register'' either. As we wont be in any particular state for any length of time we do not intend to state register. 

So far, the only advantage I can see in documenting (and as I said, that would mean forming a company at significant expense) would be quicker / easier foreign port clearance proceedures. Our bill of sale is proof of joint ownership. 

Am I missing something ?


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## hamiam (Dec 15, 2000)

another benefit of documentation is that you can obtain a preferred mortgage on a documented boat and save some interest expense. also, by not registering with a state you will avoid state sales or use tax which can be significant.


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

In my experience, documenting a boat these days defrays or avoids no state taxing, as the states have become fairly savvy at sharing info and establishing ''sticker'' registration programs for documented vessels. It may take them a bit of time to catch up with you but, unless you''re out cruising and moving fairly quickly thru each state''s waters, you will ultimately be assessed use tax - and it will apply in the state where you are caught vs. a state of yor choice with perhaps a lower rate.

Jack


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Chris:

Ahh, just saw your second post. What you''re proposing is a stateless vessel. This will be a problem for you, eventually. Even if you don''t insure and don''t cruise for extended periods inside the U.S., you will some day stay long enough in another country or island nation which has enough of a regulatory presence to wonder why your vessel shouldn''t be registered (and taxed) in their country, since you haven''t done it anywhere else. There are also some protections you would enjoy from the U.S. govt. when in foreign waters, assuming U.S. documentation. But I think the primary benefit is that you instantly ''become'' one nation''s property and therefore be honored as such by all other nations.

E.g. here in the EU I think you''d quickly be challenged if ''stateless'', potentially be liable for VAT (a robust 17.5% here in the UK) and all the waterway and boating-related regulatory obligations forced on EU citizens would be applied to you as a result. These do not apply to us because, by reciprocal treaty agreement, we are considered to be in compliance with EU rules if we comply with our home country''s regulations. You would fall outside this protection when, some day, some bored or industrious local official decided your paperwork was incomplete. (We''ve now reached the subjective part of this discussion...but I would hate to cruise with that hanging over my head).

Jack


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thank you Jack, but...well we''re not trying to evade or avoid ''taxes''? but we are retired, and will be without property on land, anywhere. We will be a stateless vessel as far as residency is concerned. We have no problem registering our boat with a state while we are in US waters, but... when we leave, and are cruising indefinitly away from the U.S. we will not be state registered because we''ll be out of state, gone, adios, probably never to return. We''ll be cruising and this is all we want. It should be simple but we''re honestly becoming fed up with rules.

Protection ! what kind of protection I wonder, that is not afforded by our repective countries by birth right, regardless of documentation or registration ?

Yes, we''d like to document our boat but we are not allowed to with both of our names on the bill of sale. We can''t document the boat in the UK because my wife is American. We can''t document our boat in the US because I''m a Brit. It''s crazy ! We are joint owners of our boat and we want to document it as such, but we are not allowed to, anywhere.

Arrrggghhhh !


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## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

Two ideas come to mind, but I don''t KNOW that either of them will work.

1) Perhaps one of you can sell their half to the other (at least on paper) so the 100% owner can then document it in their country.

2) Could a "Flag of convenience" suit your needs? I think Panama and/or Nigeria allow foreign vessels to register as theirs, and are thus able to get documentaion and insurance.

~ Good luck, and happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

A follow-up of sorts to an earlier point I made: I had a lengthy chat just yesterday with a British couple who have extensive cruising experience thru-out Europe and who currently are in the Med. To my surprise, they mentioned that port clearance issues in Spain and France have now been modified significantly due to the increasing amount of yacht-borne drug trafficking the officials are seeing. This discussion was on the same day the 10 terrorist bombs were exploded in 3 Spanish railway stations (the equivalent of bombs going off in regional airports around the U.S.).

The discussion reminded me of how formalities, security issues, legal/police activity and other ''issues'' dealt with by cruising sailors continue to change and provide an uncertain climate at times. To carry Nigerian/Liberian/Panamanian paperwork into the midst this existing confusion and anxiety really does seem a poor idea. Perhaps I''ve previously understated the security that comes with your (or any boat) being flagged in a well-recognized country.

Jack


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think we''ll form a ''Limited Company'' and register in the UK. It seems the easiest of the few options. We''ll fly the Red Ensign. 

My wife is a little apprehensive about flying the US flag outside of US waters for fear of being more of a ''target''.


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## seame (Feb 22, 2004)

You can register a vessel just about anywhere. We had the same issue with dual nationality. 

One boat was registered in Julianhaab, Greenland as that was it''s original point of departure. Another boat, though we purchased it in England, we registered it in St. Croix, US Virgin Islands. This gave us the ability to keep the boat for extended periods of time in the US. But we could have just as easily documented the vessel in England or Denmark.

Depending upon where you are traveling depends on where you want the boat registered. For example Australian boats can stay indefinitely in New Zealand waters, but not vice versa. 

The British flag carries less political stigma than the US and also many countries assume that US citizens have more money than others. So lots of options for making a decision.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

seame, we don''t understand. Are you talking about forming a company just about anywhere, then documenting the boat in the name of the company in the country where the company gets formed ?

If not, is there another way to document? What are the requirements? Who do we contact? 

Sorry for all the questions but we''re confused. ~ Chris


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## Mkfcdl (Mar 11, 2003)

My wife and I have had similar problems due to different citizenships--she''s Canadian and I''m U.S. We bought our boat in Canada where it was provincially "licensed"--similar to state registration in the U.S. The boat''s been here for nearly 2 years now and I''ve never been questioned--the Coast Guard seems to only care that the vessel has some sort of up to date official papers and that the boat is safe as per U.S. regs. Actually, a friend who''s in the USCG said that even if we had violations of U.S. regs the Coast Guard can only tell us what''s wrong but can''t fine us because of Canadian registry! Our boat is clean, safe, and organized and I think that helps officials feel better about a vessel.
However, we''re about to leave the U.S., probably for a long time, to go cruising. We also have concerns about carrying a U.S. flag abroad these days. Our solution was to register the boat through a corporation in the U.K. and thus enjoy the British flag protection. However, because my name was on the original sales document along with my wife''s, I had to "sell" her my half of the boat since the corporation is in her name (professional liability protection tactic). It wasn''t cheap--around $5000; however, it''s good for 5 years and the renewal is around $800 US. It was still cheaper than the $16,000 US we would have paid for state registration, by the way.


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Castan and the group:

This thread seems to be roaming around quite a bit, with suggestions being offered based on terrorism threats, cost, legalities, citizenship and more. Quite a realistic portrayal of the realities of cruising, IMO, as things outside the U.S. are far more ''grey'' than they are black & white. And sometimes, they can be the most ambiguous in the most rule-bound of countries - which is a fair description of the EU environment, e.g.

Castan, you''re making a decision you''ll live with for some time so I''m not sure any BB posting (mine or any other) is where you should be seeking your info. Perhaps you should talk with a helpful new boat broker who deals with this issue all the time when selling upscale boats to customers just like yourselves: not tied down to the U.S., perhaps of dual citizenship, and who wish to to do something other than walk over to the local Tax Collector''s Office. A knowledgeable broker will know far more than any of us possibly can, as they wrestle with this many times each year. (You might seek some referrals from fellow [new] boat owners).

However, it would be helpful to seek that advice while armed with some basic info:
1. You seem focused on your ability to leave the U.S., thereby wondering why you need be registered anywhere. As I tried to point out earlier, the world''s view of your boat -ultimately - won''t be the same. Fight it or not, you need to make a choice or one will be made for you. And as you make that choice, examine what obligations you have re: equipping and operating the boat under that country''s flag. (As one example, also mentioned above, putting a British flag on your boat obligates you to things; wouldn''t it make sense to know what they are?)
2. Yachtsman are far more ''targeted'' by virtue of being viewed as ''rich yachties'' in the first place, the type of boat they have and where they choose to cruise than by their flag. One of the fortunate facts about cruising is that most people in the world can and do distinguish between we Americans as a ''people'' and the U.S. as a country. But if you have a concern, simply don''t stick your flag up in the air if you sit in a port you think will be unfriendly to your flag; that''s always an option. (And why folks would think a Red Duster is a generally safe flag to fly these days escapes me...)
3. Your boat can be ''owned'' and therefore registered/documented in the name of a legal entity or in the name of one or both of you. Since you really should have wills and powers of attorney to begin with, especially so if cruising offshore, your individual financial equity in the boat can be protected outside probate via wills...which means registration can be done based on overall cost and simplicity vs. just based on your different citizenships.
4. Whether all of this is more or less important is a function of where you realistically plan on cruising. Based on a lot of different sources, I don''t see the form of registration/documentation of a boat to make any significant difference for the vast majority of the cruising venues visited by yachts today. If you plan to visit the Middle East or Indonesian Waters e.g., that may be a different story...but if your plans - realistically - are more typical (SoPac, C America & Caribbean, W Europe, the Med), your risks are unlikely to come from registration decisions UNLESS you head out with the vessel unregistered. At that point, you''re fair game and you''ll be had by someone, somewhere with little to say about it.

I''m sympathetic to the fact that this isn''t an easy issue to address but getting frustrated about it isn''t going to help much. Look at it as one simple introduction to cruising, which is what it is. The further afield you go, the more of these that will surface. The trick is to keep it in perspective and realize its just one small piece of an overall rewarding lifestyle.

Jack


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

FYI I applied for transfer of documentation in mid December & was recently told by broker that the process can take up to a year right now and letter from Documentation Company or Service stating that application had been made was acceptable to CG & others at this time. I haven''t attempted to verify this yet just putting it out there, anyone got documents lately & how long did it take?
Also I know that from my home port, I wouldn''t sail past the Nuclear Plant, Marine Base & Naval Yard with a Liberian Flag and not expect an armed escort. The idea of British or Canadian does seem a little more discrete in foreign waters and fine domestically also these days.


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## hamiam (Dec 15, 2000)

I spoke to the documentation people last week; on the recreational side they are back logged for several months. They are currently working on applications received in November ''03.


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

There is a similar thread on documentation at the ssca.org website (visit Cruising Discussions BB) where an accelerated processing option is discussed. Turnaround was recently changed from many months to a week or a bit more; the fee seemed reasonable given the change in the timeline.

Jack


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

To document a boat in the US you must have an address!!! Maybe a PO box will be enough. I would also expect that the state of the address on the documentation will expect that you register your boat in their state. Also you must have a port of record. Though the port of record is not required to be the same as your address. When we retire we''ll probably use my brother''s address for documentation and registration purposes. I was told that you need some claim to a state to register your boat there. Such as that''s where you vote,driver''s license ,family lives there, last owned a house there. But if your driver''s license is from south carolina and your boat is documented in North Dakota and state registration is New York inquiring minds might ask questions. Especially if you have been living on the boat in Florida for six months.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thank you everyone for your reponses. We have learned a few things from this discussion, some amusing, some pertaining to our original question and some informative.

Here''s a summary of what we now know as a result of this thread and elsewhere:
1. We are not required to document or state register(no fixed abode) although it would be prudent to do one or the other.
2. To document in the UK is the least expensive option by far at 12 GBP, or in the US for around $150 one time fee.
3. We can document in the UK because I''m a British national.
4. We can document in the US because my wife is a US citizen.
5. We can fly whatever flag we choose (our choice will most likely be the UK ensign) regardless of where we document, as there is no law pertaining to flags, only customs and etiquette (Some people may be surprised by this situation). 

If nothing else, we''ve learned that it''s not such a complicated, nor expensive proceedure to get the necessary ''papers'' together for our boat and new cruising lifestyle. ~ Chris


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I applied for Documentation for our C-42 early December. Had the broker check on it a couple of weeks ago, they told him they are currently running 4 1/2 months behind. problem is they are Federal and have only one office doing all the work.

Bill


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Chris, it''s good to hear that you found the discussion helpful. Good luck with the registration...and with cruising.

One last comment: When going foreign in a boat, there can be quite a variance between theory and reality, between the letter of the law back home and how the world works ''out there''. I don''t envy you the first time you are flying a (e.g.) Canadian flag and (e.g.) French authorities arrive on your boat for a drug search, look at your papers and discover you are (e.g.) British registered. The flag you fly is often what officials in distant ports key off of and, in any event, will instantly want to understand why you fly a flag that is deceiving to them. I wonder what you''d say? If it''s the observation that you get to fly whichever flag you wish, independent of your vessel''s registration, you''ll be in for a bit of an education.

Jack


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## Thermal (Aug 21, 2002)

i recently renewed my registration with a PO Box as an address, and it was rejected. Hed to put down the address of the marina where I was at, but fortunately you can keep the PO Box as a mailing address. Here in Hawaii, you don''t have to have a Hawaii state registration if your boat is USCG registered, but some states require a state registration if it''s the boat is there for anu length of time.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

LOL.... thanks Jack, we certainly don''t intend to flaunt customs with blatent disrespect. We''ll fly the British Ensign when we''re ''foreign''.... why? because I''m British! anyway, we''ll document in either the US or the UK so there''ll be no ''deceit as such.
Thanks again ~ Chris


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Was advised that physical address required by documentation service, I have one but the Post Office doesn''t deliver in my village so PO is my normal address. Also state registration not required in California on Documented Vessel, one or the other.


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Then you can...
1. Contract with a mail forwarding service and give that address to the USCG if documenting, or
2. Do something similar with a reliable friend of family member (who isn''t going to move on you...) if documenting, or
3. Do state registration after talking with your county Tax Collector, since CA is notorious for encumbering boat owners with annual tax bills even tho'' the boat is outside the country...but you''ll still need to get our occasional registration renewal using one of the two methods above

I suggest you ask around to learn how Mexico feels about foreign yachts with only State registration, since Mexico is your (first) likely foreign destination. Some countries have a problem with that form of ownership proof.

Jack


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Applied for documentation in August 2003, just received back in early March. Was handled by documentation company and was told when I inquired in October the delay was due to new procedures and computer systems at USCG. Problems had caused significant backlog, so would suggest you file for US documentation well in advance of when you expect to be leaving.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Final Note: Applied for transfer in mid-December, just got call from document service saying they tried to mail to me & was returned, can''t seem to make people understand that PO box is my address, post office can''t get to my house to deliver. Also found FAQ page for CG doc. center should any more questions arise.
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/faq.htm#11


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