# anyone want to help me buy in florida ?



## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Hello, i pretty unexperienced in regards to sailboats. I had a 470 (a 16ft open boat) when i was a kid. I am now 32 and i want to buy a 30-35 ft with a budget of 10.000 $. I am from holland and at the moment in guatemala. I will fly to ford launderdale the 29th of january. I know i can hire surveyors, but before that i would have to make my own selection and i dont really have the experience for that. 

Is there anyone in that area willing to help me buy a boat ?
It would also be very welcome if someone would like to teach me a bit how to handle it.

And in case noone wants to help me in person, maybe i can get some advise on this forum, what to look for, what brokers to go to and where not ? or whatever advise you may have for me

longer background story:
Since i lack experience, the primary goal of this boat is to get experience for a few months and then decide how much i like it. My idea is to island hop the caribean to venezuela and then follow the coast back to rio dulce. Then reevaluate. Maybe leave the boat there and fly to holland to come back next year, maybe sell the boat if i dont really like it enough to bother myself with the upkeep of a boat, or maybe buy a better one if i did like it and my experience makes me want something else. So that makes reselability an important aspect for the boat i want to buy now. Furthermore, i dont want it to need any big investments, so i want the main expensive things that i cant fix myself to be in good condition. (sail, riggings, engine) Above water paint i dont really care about, i can do that. Some damage to the furniture and stuff like that is not much of an issue either for me. And while an autopilot seems really really nice to me, i guess im gonna need some experience to know what kind of autopilot is really usefull and what are their limitations anyway so although it may be an important aspect if i can get the right information on this topic, it is not the most important, espescially as long as i dont have the right information. Other electronics i dont care much about, it is my field of studie, so i figure i should be able to install some stuff i buy from ebay whenever i want to. Finally, the minimum size of the boat is decided by my length. I am 1,90m tall (6ft4) and i want to be able to stand right up in my boat. It would also be nice if the bed is at least as big as i am. And it would be nice if the boat could sleep 5 people so that i can invite some other tourists over while island hopping. Am i being realistic ? (espescially with regart to my budget and what i want from the boat, if my sailing plans are realistic with my lack of experience is another subject of course...)

thank you


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## youmeandthed (Jan 19, 2012)

I had a Catalina 30, you can pick them up cheap, and they have a lot of livable space. I'm 6'2" and I could stand up in it without hitting my head, 6'4" might be pushing it.

Look on craigslist, and look for something small and sturdy, you will definitely have to compromise on a few things.

Warning: as an investment don't buy a boat. You will buy it for X dollars, spend X dollars maintaining/refitting and sell it for X dollars. So in Boat finance you get

X + X = X

but hey go for it, you don't know how it's going to end before you start.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Arjen said:


> Hello, i pretty unexperienced in regards to sailboats...[A]nd it would be nice if the boat could sleep 5 people so that i can invite some other tourists over while island hopping...


That sounds like a good plan!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Do you plan to sail the boat down the Caribbean chain alone? That would not be very realistic given the experience level you've described. For starters, you will need heavy weather, navigation and landfall experience beyond getting familiar with making the boat go.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

$10,000 is not going to buy you much. In a boat big enough for you to stand up in, and sleep 5, that's going to buy you a project--a boat that needs at least that much again in repairs and refitting before it is ready for the kind of journey you are talking about. Not to mention the fact that, without a lot more training and/or experience, you yourself are not ready for the kind of journey you are talking about.

I honestly don't wish to burst your bubble, but I really don't think you are being very realistic here. Perhaps you should start with a smaller "pocket cruiser" and get some sailing experience, so that you have a better idea of what you are getting into and what you need. That way when you sink your savings into a boat for a longer journey you will not be literally "sinking" your savings!


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

You might be able to find a 30 footer that isn't a complete disaster for your budget, but it won't be suitable for what you want to do. And a larger boat is going to need so much work (and money) that it won't make sense. Sorry, either raise your budget or revise your plans.


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

At your budget -

I'd buy a small cruiser 25ftr or so - with the idea you will own it for 2-3 years and then sell it for roughly what you paid for it. (re)Learn to sail, learn to repair, You will then have enough experience to buy the bigger keelboat you can use to realize your dreams. You will have saved beacoup dollars in upkeep, insurance, and slip fees over those 2-3 years of learning.

We just got a story from someone relatively new to sailing - *he lived for 3 months on his Santana 525 in the Gulf of Mexico*. This is a 25ftr built in the mid 1970's. He bought the Santana 525 for $1,500 with trailer in Tulsa from a buddy of his.

He said 3 months of living on the boat "_was the best time of his life"_


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Thanks for the replies, even though they are somewhat discouraging 


> but it won't be suitable for what you want to do.


What would you consider the requirements for this ? None of the distances between the islands are very big, and i assume they are quite busy with other boats. That makes me think i wont need safety equipment for satelity emergency calls and all kinds of spare parts (with the skills to use them) that i would need when crossing an ocean. Dept sounders and stuff i was told wont really help you anyway with the steep coral reefs, so that seems like unneeded equipment (id think i need a someone on the bow to look out for reefs) So what more do i need than a functioning boat and maybe gps ?

And what budget would you then think about for what i want? Last year i saw in rio dulce a very good 30ft boat go for 19.000 and another for 20.000 That was a bit over my budget, and they told me to go to florida because they are supposedly cheaper there. (and much, much more available for sale) My budget is a bit flexible, and its not all of my savings, so actually, this was already my thought of buying a small one for limited money before i might buy a 40 foot later if i like it so much that i want to go around the world


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Arjen said:


> Thanks for the replies, even though they are somewhat discouraging
> 
> What would you consider the requirements for this ? None of the distances between the islands are very big, and i assume they are quite busy with other boats. That makes me think i wont need safety equipment for satelity emergency calls and all kinds of spare parts (with the skills to use them) that i would need when crossing an ocean. Dept sounders and stuff i was told wont really help you anyway with the steep coral reefs, so that seems like unneeded equipment (id think i need a someone on the bow to look out for reefs) So what more do i need than a functioning boat and maybe gps ?


So at this point, your plan is to be totally reliant on other boaters for _your_ safety and dependent on Lady Luck shining down on you to guide you to your destination? I humbly suggest that you get some sail training, check out the Recommended Reading thread in the forum for some books written by cruisers, and start your adventure by revising your plan a bit so that you aren't a hazard to others, much less yourself and potentially the environment when you run aground without a depth sounder.


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

So you would use a satelite phone to call the coastguard when your crossing 30km of water that is full of sailboats because you should not rely on others for your safety ?

Believe me, im not a total idiot. Please dont react like i am.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Arjen said:


> Believe me, im not a total idiot. Please dont react like i am.


I believe that you are not a total idiot. I also believe that you are asking questions that indicate that you know EXTREMELY little about this, and that you need a lot more basic education before you will be able to ask meaningful and intelligent-sounding questions.

This is not just about whether you need a satellite phone or not. As DRFerron said, you need to check out some of the recommended reading first.

Good luck.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Rude Comment deleted per forum rules- Jeff_H SailNet Moderator


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Arjen
We have all been seduced by the lure of the sea and sailing. Those who have sailed for 50 years and those who have seen a beautiful sailing picture and can only imagine how great it would be to sail.

Translating that dream into reality and doing it safely and within budget is the tricky part. Please keep in mind that the regulars, the guys and gals that really know about sailing, get a query similar to yours about once a week. The regulars know a lot about sailing and boating and they know almost nothing about you and your accomplishments in other fields and general skill sets.
I suspect that the people whose posts seem the most disrespectful are the people who actually care about you the most even though they don't even know you. 
They have spent enormous sums of money in unanticipated expenses that has diminished their enjoyment of the sport. They have been in sailing situations that for the lack of a better word were just terrifying. In short they are trying to steer you in a way that will maximize your enjoyment and minimize your risk.
You have received excellent advice so far. Advice can be given gently or roughly but if it is good advice it is still valuable either way.

I suspect you are accomplished in your field and expect a certain protocol in communication. I've learned that on these free advice forums, sometimes the most useful information is packaged in a way that could be interpreted as not polite. 

Too bad you are doing this in Florida. If you wanted to do it in Connecticut I could help you.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

I disagree with the notion that everyone on an internet forum deserves respect.

Identifiable members do deserve the same respect accorded any other person in a social setting. If you are willing to stand behind your posts by revealing your identity through your screen name (_bobperry, wdschock, drferron, jeffh, jameswilson29_, etc..) or by your photos, location, etc., then you should be treated politely as a real person in a community. I respect you for having the guts to stand behind your ideas. Members of sailnet should hesitate to attack real people who are trying to contribute to a conversation about a subject of mutual interest.

If you chose to appear on an internet forum anonymously (which is your indisputable right), then you should expect to be judged by the quality of the content of your posts. If you post anonymously with idiotic, silly, banal, whiny nonsense (hi "Wifey"), then your foolish ideas deserve to be skewered.

No one really knows who these anonymous posters are. They could be trolls, spammers, false identities, multiple identities, etc. Defending these anonymous posters is rather silly. What exactly are you defending - someone's right to be stupid?

The law of defamation recognizes this distinction. If you want to sue someone for slander or libel, you have to prove damage to your reputation in the community, which requires that you are identifiable. If no one knows who you are (through your own choice to post anonymously), you cannot claim that your reputation has been damaged.

If you want to be treated with respect, tell us who you are or produce thoughtful posts - not this kind of idiotic foolishness.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

5 to 7k would buy this which would do.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=66791&url=

BTW Do not rely on being rescue by well manned fast and powerfull coasties down island. In places yes but often not.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Lovely vessel...you trying to make it difficult for him to score in the Caribbean...


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

jameswilson29 said:


> Lovely vessel...you trying to make it difficult for him to score in the Caribbean...


Meh. Just needs a little elbow grease and a ton of Simple Green.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> I disagree with the notion that everyone on an internet forum deserves respect.
> 
> Identifiable members do deserve the same respect accorded any other person in a social setting. If you are willing to stand behind your posts by revealing your identity through your screen name (_bobperry, wdschock, drferron, jeffh, jameswilson29_, etc..) or by your photos, location, etc., then you should be treated politely as a real person in a community. I respect you for having the guts to stand behind your ideas. Members of sailnet should hesitate to attack real people who are trying to contribute to a conversation about a subject of mutual interest.
> 
> ...


I agree. My real name is, Bond.......James Bond.

I do agree that forum anonymity can cause trouble. However, identified or not, none of the advice or opinion on a forum should be taken as truth. It is like a chat on the dock that gives you an idea to checkout for yourself. Many very good ideas.

One has to consider that anyone can watch these forums, not just those you interact with and think youve become to know. Identity theft or mabe the theft of your property, as you innocently identify how long it will be unattended, are real threats. To each his own.

Nevertheless, "I don't know how to sail but want to buy a boat for $10k and sail around the world, which has been a lifelong dream, despite having never learned how to sail, and will bring my 6 toddler children along and need 7 feet of headroom" does get trying. We get at least one per week. In good humor, it's really just funny.


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Ok never mind guys, Ill get help from real people instead of those who think they should behave like XXXXXXX because its internet. Maybe see you all sometime in the future, its a small world after all.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Minnewaska said:


> One has to consider that anyone can watch these forums, not just those you interact with and think youve become to know. Identity theft or mabe the theft of your property, as you innocently identify how long it will be unattended, are real threats. To each his own.


Very good point.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Arjen said:


> Ok never mind guys, Ill get help from real people instead of those who think they should behave like assholes because its internet. Maybe see you all sometime in the future, its a small world after all.


Most don't intend to offend. Please understand that your query is very common and often the poster will not accept good advice. Some have even proven to simply be trolls, having no other purpose than provoke an argument. As a result, several of us have become jaded.

If you are sincere and willing to hear the truthful answers to how to achieve your goal, I would encourage you to hang around. If it has to be your way and you don't have any experience to debate your opinion, it isn't worth it for any of us.

Hope you stay and learn. Your call.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"We get at least one per week. "
Kinda like a sixteen year old showing up at NASCAR and announcing he wants to drive next week, do they have any red cars available 'cause he doesn't like green?

Arjen, sailing is like poker. A very simple game that anyone can play but it really helps if you get some practice before you enter a high stakes game. In this case the stakes are your life, or at least your entire investment, and if you have to ask whether you need a satellite phone for a 30km crossing...that begs some very basic questions, like why don't you know VHF radios are used for this, not expensive satphones?

There's nothing wrong with not having a clue, we all start that way and on the right day we're sometimes still clueless. But you're tackling a huge and risky project here. Do you have any idea of how to document and title a boat? Yes, there are paperwork issues to be dealt with. No sailing experience? That may be a problem, you may have to get liability insurance before marinas will let you dock.

And even if some kindly soul goes out looking and says "This boat is for you!" that does you no good if you're not there to put up a cash deposit for it, the seller wants to sell it--not wait a month or two weeks for you to come look and see if you're interested.

If you're still with us, this is not to discourage you or to call you names. But this is only a simple project if you are willing to concede up front that your boat may be a total loss, your investment may be a total waste, and your lack of experience may very well be fatal. The sea is not a kind mistress, it is unforgiving. Even two kilometers off the beach.

Better to take a shoreside job, become a dock rat working at a marina or boat club where you can get some sailing experience for a couple of months, and come up the learning curve safely.

If you really want to plunge in, look at Yachtworld and Craig's List, and start making calls two weeks before you plan to arrive, asking people what they can find for you. Be prepared to send money if they find something, and be prepared to lose it if the deal goes wrong.


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## mikieg (Oct 29, 2010)

arjen. proceed sir. remember that this is an ancient craft. sailing was conquered long before there was electricity much less every conceivable gadget on the planet said to take the risk out of sailing. 
i have noticed that most will tell you to wait till you find the perfect boat, or become an america's cup racer, before you jump out there.
sadly, i followed this route. and i lost 10 years before i took the plunge. that was 25% of my life! 
if we always listened to all the reasons why "we cant" or "we shouldnt", no one would ever do anything!
WDSchock makes very valid points. i happen to know this guy of whom he speaks.
i love all the people that insisted that i get "sailing lessons". and every time i ask them where they got their lessons from, not a one has ever answered that he ever indeed pursued lessons!
get out there and get started. you are wasting precious time!


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> If you are sincere and willing to hear the truthful answers...


He's pretty well proven that he has no interest in truthful answers. He wants someone to tell him to just go out there and do it. He doesn't want to have to waste his time actually LEARNING anything before he sails off into the deep blue. Some of the answers were worded a little harshly, but almost all of them boiled down to "you need to slow down a little and learn a little before you jump into the deep end." Seriously. Is that such an awful answer to his questions? No, actually, that is darned good advice for any newbie. This is what he NEEDS to hear, but it is not what he WANTS to hear.

Okay, Arjen, so go and do it. But when you run into problems that are entirely your own doing, because you decided to call people names instead of listen to the good advice you were getting, please do not call the Coast Guard, or anyone else. Putting yourself in danger is your own prerogative. When you call for help, and thereby put OTHERS in danger because of your own unwillingness to learn... Well, who's being the real A-hole then?


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## Shon (Jan 21, 2012)

*Help.*

Arjen: There has been some very good advice given to you already by members of the site so read it over & think about ALL of it. Your starting price will afford you only small sailboats that are in any condition to sail & they won't work for what you are trying to accomplish. That being said, I'm retired & have been sailing since 1975 on everything from "sunfish" up to & including my 35" schooner. (I'd be happy to sell you that BUT you better bring your tool box as she is on the hard awaiting the spring & a complete hull rebuild!) IF you find a suitable boat while your in Florida I'm available until May 2012 to show you the ropes & at least start you in the right direction. The majority of my sailing has been on Lake Ontario (google "The Great Lakes") But I have also sailing the ocean & gulf around Florida on family charters since about 1985. Please feel free to contact me thru the Sailnet site if you are interested in my offer. I'll be in the Orlando area next week BUT without a computer. Call me: 315-532-4417

Good Luck: Shon


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## mikieg (Oct 29, 2010)

wow. shon's first post! a damned good gesture never the less. it sure would have been nice to have someone offer to help me get going when i first looked into this. sure woulda saved me 10 years!
it was baptism by fire to say the least!


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

jameswilson29 said:


> Lovely vessel...you trying to make it difficult for him to score in the Caribbean...


C'mon it is not that bad. OK except for the cushion covers. A goodwill sewing machine and some fabric will soon fix that.

It has a newish Yanmar, skeg hung rudder, serviceable sails and will do the job. Even comes with dink and outboard.


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## Shon (Jan 21, 2012)

*Baptism by Fire !*

 Yes, I've been there myself ! You would think that after this long the "fires" would burn out. My gesture was made in all sinceirty as I too have walked in those TIGHT shoes one or twice in my life !.

Being retired & driving my wife crazy was fun for the first couple of months but just like marraige even the fun get old after a while. It's been two years & right now I'm between projects since it WINTER in upstate New York. A two or three month sailing tutorial in the Keys wouldn't break my heart or the bank at this point.

My biggest consern is that Arjen may not take into account the advise that the Sailnet members have given him. Yes, some are too BLUNT but all in all their opinions are "on the money".

As for my first post, yes it was. I had to sign up in order to make my offer. I've been a member for a while but the site won't give me my old password & I can't for the life of me remember it ! This is a new & unused email address so the I could register AGAIN !! Later: Shon


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Ok, im still here (someone PMed me that i should see some of the newer posts)

I really like the poker comparison, because in fact, and now probably some are not gonna believe me. That is one of the things that gives me my confidence. As i said earlier, electronics (and computer science) is my field of study. But its not my work, after 1,5 years of boring work i promised myself never to work for anyone else again and started my poker carreer. I bought some books, started and made a living of it since then. My philophy in life is to just go and do things and when you believe in yourself, you will succeed. It has worked for me so far. So thanks for the encouraging comparison.

And of course, i do know that VHF is for short distances and satelite for long ones. That was the whole issue and my post was a sarcastic reply. Sorry if that was not clear to everyone.

Believe me, i do not disregard the advices given here completely. First of all, i will not give my friends on statia to much hope that i am gonna end up there anytime soon. I do believe that this carribean round trip i am thinking of is a bit too much for a start (within the time i have before huricane season at least) and maybe i better start circling around some bahamas islands first and hope to end up in rio dulce before the huricanes come in. (I dont feel like going to the north US because i do intent to spend summer in europe and marinas in the US i assume are a LOT more expensve then in rio dulce)

For the budget thing, as i said, my budget is flexible and i already kept it a bit low because it is to be my first practice boat. I am aware that buying a boat is only the first bit of expenses. I was very hopefull that 10k would buy me a sailready 30ft, but you guys are telling me its not. So while of course i am stubborn and still have a little hope remaining and i will search for it, i am ready to face the fact that i wont find it. And the replies here made me think about this and decide that i will be critical not to buy a crappy boat that is gonna give me a lot of unexpected problems that i am too inexperienced to cope with (of course i will always meet some unexpected issues) and rather choose for a smaller one when needed.

I also see someone write about people looking for me at boats while i am not there to make a downpayment. To clarify, that is not at all what i was asking about. I would very much like it if someone could be there when i am there to help me in person. (29th of January) To go to boats that seem interesting to me and point me out what is good about those boats and what not. That is what i need most now. 

And fadentime, i cannot send you private messages as a new member, but i may use your phone number when i arive in florida (and first buy a local prepaid since my own phone wont work on this continent) Thank you.


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Little update:

Had some delays due to stolen passport. This is gonna keep me in florida for at least 3 weeks till a new one is arranged. At least i got time to look for boats now 

I have seen a Kelt 7.60. (27ft) It looked good for as far as i can judge, but it really is a bit small really.... So i do hope i'm gonna find a little bigger one.

Tomorrow i will see a Columbia 32 and a 36 Morgan. I was told it is in pretty ok condition, except for the fact that it has no engine and outboard could be fitted onto it. I am hesitant and it really may be a bit too big anyway, but looking at it never hurts of course.

I am more eager though to see a 33 Rawson that is for sale. This seems like a favorite to me. It should be sturdy, full keel, 6"4 headroom, and well equiped. It is out cruising right now though....

What do you guys think about this ? Could the rawson be a good choise, or can i not expect a boat like that to be in good condition for 10k ?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

" a 36 Morgan. I was told it is in pretty ok condition, except for the fact that it has no engine and outboard could be fitted onto it."
Don't waste your time. If someone threw out the old engine and didn't bother putting a new one in, it was because the boat wasn't worth it. And if Charlie Morgan heard them talking about bolting on an outboard when he designed it with an inboard, I expect you'd hear how a real sailor can curse.


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

"someone threw out the old engine and didn't bother putting a new one in, it was because the boat wasn't worth it" Yep, thats my thought as well. The broker offered me to bring me to this boat after i called him for a pearson 30 that was already sold. I dont have anything else to do tomorrow so ill just go. I figure looking at boats and talking about them is only gonna increase my experience, so it wont hurt.

Other than that, i actually already kind of fell for a boat even though i havent seen it yet. I communicated with the seller and it feels good. I like this boat because it is currently sailing, so it must be sail ready. I also like the size and the solar/wind power equipment. It has just crossed from florida to mexico and is on its way to guatemala. So when i get my passport arranged i plan to go to guatemala to buy it there. I have a friend over there who can check it for me before i fly though. The owner is willing to teach me to sail it as well.

Thus now these 3 weeks in florida, i will keep looking at boats, but most likely its just for a second option. Or maybe in these 3 weeks i will stop feeling so enthousiastic about this boat and find something else that looks good.... 

So this is her, what you guys think of it ? Should she be my valentine ?
1972 Rawson Cruising 30 sailboat for sale in Outside United States


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

That's a lot of boat for 10k and would make a nice cruiser if it's in acceptable condition. The price is so low there have to be some significant problems. You need someone who knows what to look for to go with you, preferably a professional surveyor, or at least a knowledgeable unbiased person. You want to be careful not to buy something that will cost a fortune to repair when you discover why it's so cheap. On the other hand, if you're prepared to lose the money, go for it. In the meantime start studying books. Chapman's isn't a bad place to start.


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## Mobnets (Apr 24, 2011)

Arjen:
I've been following this thread through it's highs and lows and I think you are on the right track as far as taking a look at this boat goes. 

About 300 made. Many circumnavigations. Decent motion comfort and capsize ratios. 6'6" V-berths. 6' 3" headroom. In your stated price range. Set up for cruising (Wind Generator and solar panels) but still fairly simple and straightforward (sailplan, basic instrumentation, tiller steered, tiller pilot, etc.). 

I think you hit on the most important aspect making it worth taking a look . . . it's currently out cruising the same general ocean geography you've initially set your sights on. Also, an active owners group and lots of information about this specific boat on the internet.

My two cents worth and good luck.

Mobnets
1973 Paceship Chance 32/28 "Westwind"


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

Never heard of a Rawson, so I can't comment. One thing I can tell you, you don't want to try to fit an outboard on a 30+ foot boat. I don't suggest an outboard on anything much bigger than maybe 26 feet, especially if you're using it out in the ocean.


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## Mobnets (Apr 24, 2011)

I should add I was referring to the Rawson. 
Mobnets


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

That's probably a $400-500 flight, to look at a $10,000 boat. My only thought would be that a few flights like that could really bump the price of a "cheap" boat, versus staying in one large market and shopping around.


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## melliott0352 (Jan 29, 2012)

My big question would be why are they selling this boat? If you dont mind chasing after it, play it out. Seems they did some work recently, and is currently sailing (so we're told, not that I'm the suspicioius type) If it is as proposed for $10K you would be hard pressed to find much better even in this depressed market. Good luck. Keep looking. Only thing about the poker analogy, if you're offshore and something goes bad you cannt fold and walk away from the table. Single handing the type of trip you propose is not easy. Think about picking up some crew, perhaps a seasoned sailer / drifter who has to get out of town NOW under the radar and can help out as long as you dont ask him his real name.


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## Shon (Jan 21, 2012)

Arjen: If you look at the pictures of the cabin interior there is a wet spot by the bulkhead just forward of the port. That is right about where the chainplates are on the boat ! If one leaks, they ALL leak & generally cause ROT long before they are noticed !! Look it over VERY acrefully !! Good Luck: Shon


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Thanx for the comments.

I think i'll try and have my friends in Guatemala arrange a survey on it before i go back.


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## Shon (Jan 21, 2012)

*survey*

Good idea !! I know from personal experiance that an unbiased opinion is needed when buying a boat. I have a HUGE white elephant sitting @ the marina because I didn't take my own advise !! Shame on me. Later: Shon


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Be aware that getting from Guatemala back to Florida is NOT a trivial sail. 

Also that Guatemalan summers are VERY humid and hence damaging to all sorts of boat bits.


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Rio dulce is a very popular hurricane season hideout. Can it really be so bad then ? (with the moisture thing...)

I was not planning to go back to florida. I think it wont take very long there for me to lose more in marina fees than the cost of the boat. (In guatemala i might have a free spot to park it, and if not, marinas are there for 100$ a month)


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Can i ask you the favor of giving me your opinions on a few more listings ? This is pretty much the rest of the listing i selected this far on the east side of florida. 
Pearson 35 1969 Pearson P35 sailboat for sale in Florida
Columbia 27 Search Sailboats for Sale
Pearson 30 1980 Pearson Yachts Pearson 30 sailboat for sale in Florida
Columbia 31 1976 Columbia 9.6m sailboat for sale in Florida
27' Cal 1977 Cal Cal 2-27 sailboat for sale in Florida
31,5Hughes 1981 HUGHES 31 sailboat for sale in Florida
Pearson 30 1973 Pearson sailboat for sale in Florida
Watlikns W27 1978 Watlikns W27 sailboat for sale in Florida
27 Bristol
27 Ericson
27 columbia 1977 Columbia 8.3 sailboat for sale in Florida
28 islander 1976 islander I28 sailboat for sale in Florida
29 columbia 1978 columbia 8.7 sailboat for sale in Florida
27 cal 1976 Cal Boats 2-27 sailboat for sale in Florida
If you dont feel like clicking the links, just commenting on the reputation of this type of boat would of course be helpfull as well  Just give it whatever effort you feel like.
I avoided the catalinas and hunters in my first selection since everyone seems to think they are crap 

And how about that outboard engine idea ? this 31,5 hughes also has an outboard, but the broker i sproke and gave this same list stated it as one of the better ones. Then again, he wanted to sell me the morgan 36 without engine  
Personally it seemed a reasonable idea to me since at least it is easy replaceable, accessible and not ridiculously old like the rest of the boat. Besides that, i intend to actually sail the boat and have the engine only for going in and out of the harbor and maybe emergencies. What is the main reason to be so strongly against an outboard engine ?


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## Shon (Jan 21, 2012)

Arjen: That is quite a list there !!

I stumbled through them & IF I were to lean in the direction of any of them the 80 Pearson would be my first consideration. The fact that it was used in "fresh water" for most of it's past life is a +.

The Columbia 31.5 looks to be a engine problem just waiting for a new "sucker" ! ADD 10K

27'Cal: The o/b would be one of my concerns as that transon wasn't designed to carry the weight of a BOUNCING outboard in a rough sea ! 

31.5 Hughes: Again you have the outboard issue + the pictures are 5 years old !!

30 Pearson: ? OK & it has some amenities that you will find handy. I'd look real close for leaks & blisters !!

Watkins 27: Nice size for two people + the survey is only three months old ! Look it over & talk with the marina that did the work. 

78 Columbia: !!! Look at the rot in the bulkheads where the chain plater are anchored ! The bolts are pulling through as we speak !!

Cal 27: My first question is what are you going to do when that rowboat slams into you in rough seas ? I mean other that sink !!

I guess looking at all of the listings the 80 Pearson or the 27' Watking should be looked at. Your "dream" of cheap living cost in other countries is appealing BUT remember even with a 6K $ boat you would appear RICH to the people that live there & poor to the tourist that sail there. Do you have any personal protection on board as you will surely need it some dark night when your dingy & outboard are carried away by some hungry local !! 

Just my personal thoughts, but you asked so ther you are. Good Luck.

ps: I got back home from Florida yesterday, sorry I missed you. Shon


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Thanx, you think i can assign any value to a survey supplied by the seller ?

Oh and the answer to that dingy: try to get it cheaper without the dinghy, or resell the dinghy asap and get an inflatable.

About the protection, i have been traveling in third world countries by land. I'm used to the locals thinking im rich and this far it doesn't seem that bad to me. Sure it is a good reason against easy to steal outboards though. If you mean a firearm for protection, that sure sounds interesting, but i guess it's gonna cause trouble with coastguard inspections.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Arjen said:


> Thanx, you think i can assign any value to a survey supplied by the seller ?


Some value, I suppose. Not enough to avoid my own, however.


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## Shon (Jan 21, 2012)

OH, yes the Coast Guard ! I had forgotten about them. I carry a federal pistol permit but even with that I still generally leave the gun home ! If you have it , you might just use it !! After 25 years working in the prison system one tends to look at the seeder side of life differently. The wife says I'm a little "paranoid" I just think I'm tainted.

Anyway the list of boats had so OK & some NO-WAY boats in it. Like I said I didn't take my own advise & now I have to remove & rebuild the entire deck & two houses on my schooner. I fell in love with this boat over ten years time & when it came up at a price I could afford I jumped in without looking ! BAD IDEA !!!

Use you head & take your time. That three month old survey will be of "some" value BUT deffinetly talk with the marina that did the repairs. They have no reason to lie to you since they already have their money & might even suggest a couple things that could save you in the long run.

Good Luck: Shon

ps:Your right about the inflatable


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## yelnats69 (Dec 26, 2007)

Good luck with your venture, but don't let the Florida sun and Bahamas fool you, the seas can be treacherous and scary to say the least, Storms come up on you very quickly and you can lose visibility in minutes. You can never have too much safety equipment. On the whole most boaters will come to your assistance in an emergency. On route from Fort Pierce to the Bahamas, we saw 5 water spouts, not another boat on the horizon, I hi-tailed it back to the mariner, to a few jibes of " We thought you were a good sailer" my reply "I am", moral being: good sense and a good engine' beats fighting the elements. 
There are bargains to be found, check out boatangels and others selling sailboats on ebay & Craig's list.
Apply common sense and logic when inspecting, if hard to get at items like sea cocks and valves bilges are in good condition and the engine room is clean & tidy then thats a sure sign the previous owner loved the boat. Ask other people in the marina about the boats history, anything thats bolted on only costs money to replace, makes sure the deck is solid and has no soft or spongy areas same for the hull, make sure its solid, don't be afraid of blisters unless they are huge, you can deal with them., I never heard of a blisters sinking a ship! but they are great when negotiating a price. 
Just remember all boats a projects, some just a little bit bigger that others, and besides, buying a sailboat beats wasting money on stupid stuff like food & bills.
Stan & Karen project "Moonshine"
Palm Coast Florida

I think you will have to end up with a project boat


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

That Pearson 30 looks pretty clean and if the sails really are new and the diesel is in good nick then the price is not too outragous but there is room for negotiation. However the anchoring system needs upgrading to all chain with a decent size 30 to 35 lb hook. Also you need a good autopilot or windvane.

With your plan of heading from Florida to the Caribbean then to the Rio Dulce IMHO FORGET anything with an outboard.


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

i called for the pearson 30 that was listed for 15k. I looked at boats listed up to 15k because my 10k budget is a little flexible and if we could meet in the middle there, it could be good for me if the boat is in good state. 

However, i immediately asked him on the phone if the price is flexible because of my limited budget, and he said he wouldn't go below 14k so i didnt go to see it. Maybe it was not a good idea to ask that first call and i could have gotten to 12k5 if i had gone see it first, but then again, it is on the other side of florida and it would be quite a waste of time and money for me travel 300 miles and back to see a boat that is gonna be out of my budget anyway. So tomorrow im traveling to ft myers to see some 27-28ft boats... 

This far, my searches havent been very fruitfull. I have seen a few terrible project boats that are absolutely no option. 

I saw 2 boats that seemed like somewhat of an option, but still not really all that.

I have seen a 27 ft Kelt 7,60 in ft lauderdale that seemed to be in good state, but it was very small inside and had an outboard that goes trough some hole in the back. It is obviously designed like that, but i imagine not a lot of movement is needed to have the water constantly splattering up there. Listed for 12k, but without any negotiation the broker told me it would be 8k.

I saw a 28' sabre in st Pete this week. I really liked the space inside. It was however missing a jib (seller said it was stolen), the honest seeming seller (manager at the st pete aquarium where they fix up injured dolphins and turtles) stated there was dry-rot at the chain plate that could be fixed for 450$ (i doubt that figure a bit though) and the paint on the side was scratched in a little touche with the dock or another boat. Other than that it looked good. Listed for 10k, seller said 6k would be enough, again before any negotiation. If i'd be sure i could fix these problems for say another 3k total and maybe get the price even a little lower, it would seem like an option to me. However, i have my doubts about that dry-rot thing. It sounds like something more serious to me than a 450$ repair. (I couldnt judge for myself though, it was only because the seller told me that i know about it)

Most of the rest of the list was either sold already, or the broker didn't return my call. So now im at the florida west coast with a new list.

And thats pretty much all. I am very much hoping the rawson 30 is gonna get a good survey report...


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## creedence623 (Mar 8, 2006)

Dry rot at the chainplate can be a serious repair, but I think if you were to get the boat at $6k, you could EASILY address that problem and still come in well under budget. Sabre is a really solid boat. The rot around the chainplate is usually the result of a broken seal around the chainplate itself, and once the rot is fixed, and you get the chainplates re-bed, you'll be in great shape. 

I honestly don't think you're going to get much better for the money. And, you said yourself, you feel the seller is forthcoming with the boats problems. I don't think you'll get that from a broker at that price point.

Think about the Sabre like this: You've flown in to Florida to buy a cheap boat and get on the water. You found mountains of crap, and this one that needs some TLC but is in otherwise decent shape. You can pass it up and hope to find another good boat in the piles of crap out there, or, you can pull the trigger and get moving with your dream.

Good luck!!


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## bronco524 (Nov 26, 2011)

*Contact*

Dear Arjen,

I have been in contact with a guy in NC named Bill. His email is: [email protected] ,Perhaps he can help you. Good luck bud.

Jack (bronco524)


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

As mentioned earlier, i am awaiting the survey on that rawson 30 that will happen after it arrives at my friends in Guatemala around the 23th if everything goes to plan. I am now searching for a second option if that is gonna turn out not good enough. (of course im not expecting it to be perfect, and i am willing to spend a few more k's on this one if needed, i just want to be sure there are no mayor structural problems) So as for pulling the trigger, that will happen in about 10 days. Until that time, i just try to see more boats and then if its not gonna be the rawson, i can choose the best of what i have seen.

For my expectations on this budget, i have the feeling that i need to be pretty lucky to find a reasonably good 30ft for 10k. And most of the piles of crap were 30ft+. Now i am mostly looking at 27-28 fts. If i look at all the adds, and the 2 boats that i just mentioned, i have the impression that 7-8k should be enough to buy a reasonably good boat of this size. So I'll be looking at a few more of those the coming week so i can immediately decide after the rawson's survey. At this point, the 2 boats i mentioned on the last page are the only candidates, the 27 being in good condition, but a bit small to my liking, and the 28 being very much to my liking, but needing some issues fixed. 

bronco, What does NC stand for ? (north carolina ?, not really planning to go that far up, but thanks .)

PS: earlier in this tread someone advised me the book "inspecting the aging sailboat" by don casey. I ordered it and am reading it. Its a great book and while i have not yet been able to put its information to much use, i feel sure it can help me a lot both if im gonna have to decide what boat to put up for survey if no rawson. Ill just spend a few hours or a day on the boat going trough this book  And it also seems very valuable to keep me on track in maintenance after i buy a boat. Thanks for the tip.

PPS: Can you guys give me more of an indication of the costs to fix mentioned problems on the Sabre ? How much should i expect to pay for the dry-rot problem, for repainting either one or both sides of the boat above water and a jib ? (or whats a good place to find a used but good one?)


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## bronco524 (Nov 26, 2011)

*Nc*

Dear Arjen,

NC stands for North Carolina. I suggested Bill in NC because he appears to have many contacts regarding sailboats. We communicated some regarding a 29 footer. Give him an email, he may or may not be able to help but what do you have to loose on an email?
Good luck bud?):

Jack


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## bronco524 (Nov 26, 2011)

*Link*

Dear Arjen,

Here is message in another forum at a different site you may be interested in.

First boat: Columbia 7.6, San Juan 7.7, Hunter 27? - SailboatOwners.com

the site is called "Sailboatowners.com" and the link is: sailboatowners.com

Jack


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Well, last 2 days i got better results. yesterday i looked at a columbia 30. It looked pretty good in general, the engine runned well. Only possible downsides i saw was cracked paint all over the deck (but the deck felt solid and didnt make a sound, so i think it is only the paint). Some Water in the bilge (but that was on every boat ive seen this far, its just that i dont like not knowing where it comes from). And one of the poles that holds the lifelines was really very flexible on the deck and the screws on the bottom were very rusted. Kind of makes me worry water is getting into the deck there and maybe the wood is already rotten. Unfortunately i didnt check it out better. Maybe its nothing though, then this looks like a good boat for 12k5. 

today i looked at a morgan 27. It was equiped for racing rather than living on board. It didnt even have a fresh water instalation, nothing to cook, little interior stuff, no auto pilot, nothing. However, all that was there, looked excelent.
Everything clear to see, not even floor boards over the bilge.
Riggings pretty new, bottom paint pretty new, sails (3jibs + spinakker) in good condition. 
Outboard engine easy for maintanance. 

I am thinking a boat like this might be a good choise for my first boat. It looks like this is not gonna give me maintanance nightmares and surprises. I would however have to add some kitchen equipment, and i think a solar panel for some power generation. The outboard may not be good for off shoring, but it sure is nice for low maintanance, and the boat was desinged with it apearently. 5500$ for this one. another 1500 for a solar panel and some camping cooking gear and i should be able to live on it 

PS: i mailed Bill, got some link to mail someone at a bahama harbor that is selling boats. Didnt get a reply yet.


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## creedence623 (Mar 8, 2006)

Glad to hear you may have found a couple more more prospects. Any boat you buy is going to need some additional capital; and at $5,500, it sounds like you'll be able to still come in under budget assuming there aren't any terrible surprises.

What ever came of the Sabre, is it still under consideration?


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

The sabre 28, the morgan 27 and the columbia 30 are all still in consideration, but i tend mostly towards the morgan 27. And i will be looking at some more boats in the comming days.

And the bahama mail is replied to. I asked them if those boats are really in good condition and not to waste my time and money on traveling to the bahamas. There also is a sabre 28 for 4000, and it is promised to be in sailaway condition. This apearently is for sale by the marina itself, so i assume its from customers who stopped paying. I guess that might make it a reasonable chance they are selling it cheap without it having to be a pile of ****. I don't yet know how hard is gonna be to get from miami to the bahamas though without any means of transport of my own... (and of course, im still first awaiting the rawson survey)


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

I had another productive day today, i have seen 3 boats 

A 30' Lancer didnt look like it will be a contender. The shrouds were a bit loose, and 2 of them had a tiny 1x3" backing plate and starshaped crackling on the deck around them, the other 2 had normal chainplates. Can it be designed like that ?

I saw a boat marketed as "classic 28" it was from '64 and i dont remember the name of the maker anymore, something like sabaro ? While i couldnt find any real serious problems on it, It just looked a bit too basic to me and had zero equipment. 

And i saw a newport 28 that i quite liked. Wheel steering, spacious interior, and everything just looked fine except for it needing some varnish on the outside wood parts. Price about 6k5. I googled it though, and it seems to have a bit of a mediocre reputation, being called a production boat and compared to those catalinas and hunters people tell me i shouldnt buy... It does have a diesel and brass trough hulls though (2 of the complaints about the design that i found on the internet) 

What do you guys think about the newport28 ? On sight, it seems to be my favorite now.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Arjen said:


> ...There also is a sabre 28 for 4000, and it is promised to be in sailaway condition. This apearently is for sale by the marina itself...


Be careful. How, exactly, is the marina supposed to know this? They may just want to unload a derelict boat. "Sailaway" may refer to their plan to sail away with your money as quickly as possible.


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Ok, I am now in Guatemala and in the proces of buying the Rawson 30. I had my first sail trip on it today and i like it. I have some new questions about registering it though since i am getting conflicting information. 

As i understand it, you are supposed to register your boat in your country of residence. If you do not want to do this, you should make an offshore company in the country where you want to register your boat.

Registering in the Netherlands is both costly (about 800$ total cost) and impossible since it requires an official to personally come and brand the boat. I´d have to be in the Netherlands for that...

Making an offshore company in any country seems cumbersome and comes with anual costs. This seems only interesting for rich tax evading yaghties. 

However, in the Netherlands it is not obligatory to register your boat. On a dutch forum, some guy tells me i can just put up a dutch flag and thats it. Here in Guatemala someone told me that if i do not register the boat, countries might not let me in, or require me to leave immeadiately after restocking. What is true here ? Is it possible to not register my boat ? (I do offcourse want to be able to stay for longer periods in one country, and even leave my boat alone in some safe harbour during hurricane season while i myself fly back to holland)

I also hear about it being very easy to register in England if i can just write someones adres on the papers who will then receive the registration papers for me and send them to me. However, this means i will make it seem like i am a UK citizen while i am not. This sounds like fraud to me. Is this really something many people do ? Is it fairly certain that i am not going to get into trouble with this ?

And finally, does anyone have another better suggestion for me ? Is there any country in the world where i can register it at low cost without the offshore company BS ? Or maybe does anyone know who does the offshore BS for me really cheap as opposed to the 500$ and upwards cost that i find with google ?

Thank you.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Can't help you specifically with Guatemala, but do know that a lot of jurisdictions throughout the Caribbean will get quite upset if you don't have proper 'papers' for the boat. They put a big emphasis on proper paperwork and procedure. I'd expect that Central America would not be much different.

Risky not to have the real dope on situations like this. Hope someone can give you what you need.

You may find some answers here...

http://www.noonsite.com/


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

You need to have the actual boat reg papers, not copies, in some islands eg Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. 

The French islands can be picky about US State reg papers V full coastguard registration. 

Assuming you are US citizen you might want to check out the possibility of registering your boat in the USVI as there is no sales tax. However I think the boat has to be in the USVI at the time of registration.


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Thought ill provide a little update:

So i got the Rawson 30, registered it in delaware, just got the papers yesterday.

So i was in guatemala for a month without registration and couldnt leave the area. Practiced a bit on lago izabal and rio dulce. That went very nice, learned a lot. Minor things like tying up the end of your hallyard when you take down the sail and you dont want to climb the mast. Not to anchor a heavy anchor in 40-50ft deep water if there is shallow water available as well. How to get myself going again after running aground (in the river mud fortunately). That you should aproach the dock really, really slowly. (no big incidents, minor wood damage) Other than the sailing was still pretty much the same as it was 15-20 years ago in my 470 

Pretty happy with the boat, i do of course have a growing list of things to fix, but the only really big thing is the electrical systems. All corroded, no fuses or circuitbrakers, engine only has a start and glowplug button, no working gauges. Ill just replace the whole wiring, get LED light everywhere, nice new control panels both for the engine and other electronics. But it's easy, relatively cheap (self made panels and maybe LED housings for the cabin lights), and i like making things new, good and pretty, so it's no problem. 

The boat is in rio dulce now, i am in holland, making some money and preparing the fixes i want to make. Gonna go back in oktober with parts and tools, and then start my carribean round trip with a little one year delay 

Oh yeah, and i was lucky enough to have an idiot run into me with his his tiny trimaran on engine power. Broad daylight while i was anchored in a busy anchorage. He just was looking in an other direction then where he was going... He had some kevlar rod on the front of his boat that managed to punture a perfectly round 4 inch diameter hole in my hull. It was high above the waterline though, and fiber glassed next day. Just some unmatching paint is all that remains to be seen.


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