# Lobster Pots & a prop protection wire from Keel to Skeg?



## JohnZion (Feb 25, 2010)

I will be sailing a lot in Maine, where there are a TON of lobster pots and lines. One sailor said they snagged the prop twice a year on them, another said it's happened twice in ten years.

I saw a boat with a tight, thin wire running from the aft end of the keel to the forward edge of the skeg, kind of creating a protected prop, in regards to underwater lines. I thought this was a good idea for sailing through lobster pot minefields, so that run over lines would not go along the keel and then float up to snag on the prop. Otherwise you would have to zig and zag like crazy in some areas. I realize the wire will give little protection while motoring, because lines will be sucked into the prop.

The boat I am sailing [Pearson 365] has a line cutter on the shaft, but I would like to avoid getting to that point, for several reasons [lobstermen's livelihoods, tougher to cut lines, etc].

Anyways, what does everyone think? Any experience or knowledge about this? Would it help, or just be a waste of my time to set up?

Also, I was thinking that instead of screwing more holes into the boat [to attach the wire] I would epoxy on some kind of tabs [like a square inch or two of plastic or rubber with a small eye hook], onto which I could tightly string thick fishing line. So, any ideas about this, what to use for pads, and would I need to sand through the ablative paint to make them stick?

Have at it everyone!

Thanks for all the great advice so far,

John


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

I've been doing this for years...

Light spectra line from the aft tip of my keel bulb, to the bottom leading edge of the rudder. I use a small caribiner hook to clip onto a small padeye on the bottom of the rudder, because of course if launching with a Travelift, you have to dive on it to hook it up after the boat is back in the water...

It's worked fine for me so far, though of course I have no idea how many potential foulings it has averted... Nevertheless, I'd recommend doing it, I'm always a bit surprised I don't see it done more often...

I'd suggest using spectra instead of wire, however - in the event you need to get hauled in very cold water, you can simply cut it with a hooknife, rather than having to dive on it to release it...


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## JohnZion (Feb 25, 2010)

Jon

Thank you for that good info. Are the padeyes screwed or glued onto the keel and skeg?


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

I just wonder how much weed, kelp and sea grass that wire/rope would collect.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I have to think about this for a second. If the theory is to use this set up while sailing, I am trying to picture it while heeled over. You run over a pot, with your keel deflected to the side. Haven't you just created a hole to catch the pot, that didn't exist before? Its going to slide down your hull, not your keel.


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## JohnZion (Feb 25, 2010)

Simon

Good point, I hadnt really thought of that. But maybe we wouldnt be sailing through kelp beds, ect. Then again, maybe there is a lot of seaweed floating around free, that you dont really notice until you have a nice place to catch it on.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Don't bother. Just be careful and understand how to pass buoys properly. Especially the ones with toggles.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

JohnZion said:


> Jon
> 
> Thank you for that good info. Are the padeyes screwed or glued onto the keel and skeg?


They're fixed in place with machine screws... If you look closely, you can just make out the padeye on the top of the bulb at the trailing edge of my keel...












SimonV said:


> I just wonder how much weed, kelp and sea grass that wire/rope would collect.


I've never noticed a problem, but I don't sail much in areas of heavy kelp or other bottom grass. Most of the weed I encounter is floating on the water surface, chances are it's simply gonna be pushed aside by the forefoot, rather than riding down the centerline of the hull, and beneath the full length of the keel...

treilley is right, avoidance of pots to begin with is certainly the best strategy... Actually, dealing with lobster or crab traps is not my primary reason for using the sort of protection I do...

My greater concern, and primary reason for stringing such a wire, is with encountering floating rope or net in open water, the sort of thing you'd never see while underway at night, under power... We tend to forget how much crap is floating around out there... One of the worst experiences I've ever had was wrapping a large piece of fishing net around the prop about halfway between Hatteras and Tortola, while motoring through a period of calm. It took several hours, and the efforts of all three crew aboard, to finally cut free the rat's nest of polypropylene we had acquired... An extremely dangerous operation, I'm terrified of going over the side in the open ocean to begin with, and I think that particular circumstance just MIGHT possibly have been averted if that boat had been equipped with such a stringer between the keel and rudder...

So, for me, so far this set up seems worth the minimal effort required, I've yet to experience any noticeable downside to it...


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

I've been sailing in Maine for 25+ years although it was not a lot during a given year early on, mostly on charter boats for 7-14 days per season. For the last 6-7 years with my own boat the number of days on the water has increased greatly. I have caught a line maybe 3-4 times and it was mostly due to inattention. Having a full keel boat is also a help.

It's not as bad as it may sound. But whether you do the wire thing or not, keep a wet suit on board (the water is cold) and a line cutter with the extention:

LED lighting, soundproof, Sailor's Solutions Inc.

Learn to pass the pot bouys on the down wind/current side. You can get very close. You'll see the line is leading away from the boat as you pass.

From the Penobscott Bay and further down east the pots will often have the extra hassel of having a toggel attached to the line floating further down current of the bouy without the advantage of the stick up the middle making them harder to see.

Try to avoid traveling west in the late afternoon and evening. Having the sun low on the horizon in you face make the pots tougher to see. On the flip side when going east in the late afternoon they light up neon, especially with polarized glasses.

What kind of dink do you have? Having a RIB with an outboard is a big help getting to a mooring if you do grab a line. Sail as close as you feel comfortable with to a harbor then use the dink tied along side fore and aft as a mini-tug. Dont tow. Someone can be in the dink operating the outboard right next to the helmsman, making it easy to communicate. Use the steering of the mother ship not the dink. The dink is only for power.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The thin spectra line would have an advantage over wire cable, in that it would tend to saw through any kelp, etc. that fouled on it. And a spool is easy to carry.

A wet suit makes a great aid, but expect to also need a 10-20# weight belt with it, the bouyancy from the wet suit alone can make it impossible to submerge. You'd want to tweak that to neutral bouyancy before you set off. And cheap wetsuits actually DO shrink if the first 5 years, caveat emptor.

I guess that if the prospect of sharp blades is foreign, you could also buy a cordless reciprocating saw, pack grease around the battery contacts, and take that underwater to cut lines free. Cheap tool, freshwater wash, WD40...but having one knife reserved for special purposes, with a really sharp blade, professionally ground if you can't put an edge on it, really is the best defense.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I saw a Catalina 27 with a fin keel across the river from my boat that had a piece of stainless steel wire that attached to the bottom of the keel at the trailing edge that went back to the bottom of the rudder directly beneath the rudder post. The wire was stretched fairly tight, but according to the boat's owner it didn't hamper the steering at all. He said he sailed a lot at night and was constantly snagging crab pot markers near the channel of just east of Aberdeen Proving Grounds. Since he installed the stainless wire he has not snagged a single pot in three years. That's a pretty good record in this part of the world.

This year, in particular, I've seen more crab pots in Chesapeake Bay than in the past four years combined. Maryland DNR claims there's a bumper crop of blue crab this year and everyone that has a license seems to be trying to catch some clawed gold. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

I have found the best knife for cutting away Pots, nets, fishing lines and most anything else I have snagged is a bread knife.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

A bread knife is "just" a long serrated knife. I've never liked or needed them, finding a plain blade that's good and sharp will do the same job. It turns out bread knives are serrated in order to break through the hard outer crust on a traditional bread, and then rip the interior creating more texture for more flavor. But mainly, to rip through the hard crust. Essentially...a wallboard saw.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

LinekinBayCD said:


> LED lighting, soundproof, Sailor's Solutions Inc.


That is one sharp blade. I purchased one but have yet to have to use it. I am confident that it would cut through a big ball of rope in no time.

I don't carry a wet suit because I figure I can reach the prop easy with the blade attached to the pole.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

RobGallagher said:


> That is one sharp blade. I purchased one but have yet to have to use it. I am confident that it would cut through a big ball of rope in no time.
> 
> I don't carry a wet suit because I figure I can reach the prop easy with the blade attached to the pole.


Rob, you are lucky but a wetsuit is still a good idea if you need to get in the water for other things. Loose zinc, clogged engine intake, etc.

And I have had strands of old floating line tangled so badly around my prop that I had to go in.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

I have seen many versions of this on the west coast north of San Francisco, scroll down to Daddyo post:

Propellor Guard - Trawler Forum

Another possibility might be to retrofit something like this:

sail-world.com -- Propeller Guards

With the many prop/bottom configurations no doubt something custom made would be in order.

Paul T


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

dabnis said:


> I have seen many versions of this on the west coast north of San Francisco, scroll down to Daddyo post:
> 
> Propellor Guard - Trawler Forum
> 
> ...


Have you actually seen such cages on a _SAILBOAT_? Such contraptions would create an extraordinary amount of drag...

On the other hand, with so many folks rarely bothering to sail anymore, I suppose it's all good... (grin)


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## Rick486 (Sep 14, 2010)

Suggest visiting this thread for a protracted lobster pot discussion.
First time cruisers to Maine take note - Page 2 - SailboatOwners.com


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> Have you actually seen such cages on a _SAILBOAT_? Such contraptions would create an extraordinary amount of drag...
> 
> On the other hand, with so many folks rarely bothering to sail anymore, I suppose it's all good... (grin)


Should have been more specific, all the ones I have seen were on commercial crab and gill net boats. The one in the picture is kind of primitive but I suppose it does the job done? Something for a sailboat could be much smaller, simpler, and made of much lighter material, perhaps some sort of plastic? Maybe something like a short skeg on each side ahead of the prop, epoxied to the hull?

Paul T


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## DivingOtter (May 5, 2012)

your most likely referring to a Kort Nozzle.They are usually on commercial vessels and do not work as effectively as many people think. All i can say is during all my underwater inspections they are massive. When im tending to a wheel I actually climb inside of them


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The premise behind a Kort nozzle is that it prevents any propwash from slipping off the ends of the prop blades, i.e. the same way that vertical 'winglets' at the end of aircraft wings prevent airflow from slipping off the ends.

I'm surprised to see round-bladed props in a Kort nozzle, I would have thought that a blade which followd the same curve as the inside of the nozzle, allowing for small tolerance between them, would be better again still. (Or a waste of money since there's noplace for the lost flow to go?)

Of course the beauty of a cage or a nozzle is that if something gets jammed in there, now you've REALLY got a jam.


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## DivingOtter (May 5, 2012)

Very true that the main premise for a Kort Nozzle is Thrust Vectoring, However it DOES help protect the wheel in certain instances especially from lateral contact and ingesting lines or debris from the fluke tips inward.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

DivingOtter said:


> your most likely referring to a Kort Nozzle.They are usually on commercial vessels and do not work as effectively as many people think. All i can say is during all my underwater inspections they are massive. When im tending to a wheel I actually climb inside of them
> 
> View attachment 11748


I have read about and seen pictures of Kort Nozzles but that is not what I had in mind. The commercial boats I have seen on the west coast had many varations of the picture in DaddyO's post:

Propellor Guard - Trawler Forum

The one in the picture is kind of primitive but I suppose it gets the job done? Something for a sailboat could be much smaller, simpler, and made of much lighter material, perhaps some sort of plastic? Maybe something like a short skeg on each side ahead of the prop, epoxied to the hull?

Paul T


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

In my humble opinion, there is a bit of witchcraft suggested here. What works is:

Plan A - see and avoid

Plan B - shaft line cutter.

I don't think it is or can be more complex than that. If you don't see and avoid, nothing is perfect.


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## DivingOtter (May 5, 2012)

I think this is one of those " you play, you pay" sort of issues.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Paul, that's also called a "cage" or propellor cage. I've seen them on dive boats as well, where the captain wants to protect divers in the water in case he has to start the engine.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

hellosailor said:


> Paul, that's also called a "cage" or propeller cage. I've seen them on dive boats as well, where the captain wants to protect divers in the water in case he has to start the engine.


Ah, yes a cage. That is a better description. No doubt a cage for a sailboat would take some brainstorming. I was thinking about a set of "fingers", maybe about four of them, two near the shaft and two just a little wider than the prop,
mounted six inches or so forward of the prop. They could be shaped something like a skeg and swept back somewhat and epoxied to the hull. I don't think they would create much drag or turbulence for the prop? They could be made out of some dense, tough type of wood like Oak or Ash? And maybe a line cutter as backup?

Paul T


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

When sailboats snag a pot on a shaft or rudder, and think they are doing a favor by trying to get it off without cutting it, they usually are only making it worse. 

 Wire traps are very light weight and dragging ten of them is no problem for a boat with sails up or one in wind and current. Often times what happens is the boat drifts, and drags the the string across a few others. This makes a HUGE, HUGE mess!! 
 
I used to run pot buoys on both ends of my string, as most all fisherman do. Not once did I ever loose both ends at the same time. Replacing a pot buoy is FAR cheaper than loosing 300 feet of warp to a tangle and the time involved in re-rigging a string.. 

As far as toggles go the old excuse is that they are used to keep the line from tangling the bottom or a rock. This is pure BS!! This excuse is worn out and is not even close to why they actually use them. Most fisherman use them out of habit & history and because the more they use them the more pot buoys they lose due to line cuts. It is a self fulfilling/defeating idea. If they used no toggles as they do in Casco Bay they would lose a LOT less pot buoys. Sadly old habits die hard and fishermen are a stale & crusty old bunch whom are also very, very resistant to change. They keep using toggles so that when the main pot buoy gets cut they can still boat hook the toggle.

If you want to see just how much BS the "keep the line off the bottom theory is" just note how many of the toggles are still floating & laying rather flat on the surface at high tide. By "theory" that toggle should be 10-14 feel below the surface at high tide to keep the line off the bottom.

I have actually argued against the use of these toggles, from a boater safety standpoint, and as an ex-commercial fisherman, to my state Senator, but he was unwilling to submit a bill to ban them. There is ZERO legitimate reason for their use, they way they are currently used, and they only lead to more pot buoys being cut off. Thus the fisherman think they are a good idea and the viscous circle begins again..

Far less pot buoys are cut off in areas where they don't use them. In my thousands & thousands of pulls, without toggles, I never once had a line snag the bottom, ever. Toggles are pure BS!

Here are a few tips on how to deal with lobster pots.
*
#1* ALWAYS try to pass to the down current, down wind or down tide side of the pot. Never intentionally pass above a lobster pot unless you absolutely know you have the room to do so! They have an uncanny way of letting you know which way is up current, wind or tide and which way is down. Follow the stick or the wake!

This one is pointing or angled towards "down tide" so you'll pass to where the stick leans or points. This is about a 1.5 knot current at the mouth of Penobscot Bay and well off Vinalhaven and Northhaven Islands. We were miles from the nearest land yet Pen Bay has HUGE amounts of water to spill and the currents can run miles out to sea.. NEVER EVER intentionally pass a pot like this to the up tide or up current side!!!








*#2* Wear polarized sunglasses!!! My daughter had grabbed my Maui Jim's and got "snack goo" all over them. Rather than clean them I stupidly grabbed my "guest" pair of sunglasses, a non-polarized pair of Ray Ban's.

As you can see we almost hit this pot that was pulled under by the tidal current! My maneuver was late because I never saw it until the absolute last second. At that point I had no choice but to turn hard stbd and pass to the up-current side which as you can see could have been very dangerous. Again, WEAR POLARIZED SUNGLASSES! You will see these submerged pots well before you will with non-polarized glasses. My camera had a polarizing filter so I snapped that as we passed.








*#3* just because it's calm does not mean the pots are not still trying to tell you something. Current & tide still exists even in flat glass conditions. Note the direction of the "sticks"...








*#4* It may be calm but this pot has a decent current flowing by it. Just look at the "wake" made by the buoy..











> I passed too close to a lobster guy and he was swearing at me and really pissed how do I avoid pissing these guys off?


Look for his or her "colors" then spot his/her pots on the water and as a courtesy, and for your own safety, these guys are cowboys, get away from them as the boat is likely moving to the next pot that matches the displayed colors!

Lobstermen are required to display their "colors" or one of their own pot buoys mounted up high on the boat so it can be seen.
*Note the pot buoy above the radome:*








*Note the "colors" on the port side wheel house roof:*








*Note the "colors" laying on the wheel house roof behind the spot light & hanging dead center also look on the water and you'll see two more of his/her pots.. stay away from them:*








*Pot buoy/colors located on stern end port side of wheel house roof:*


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