# Cargo License?



## orionmetz (Dec 31, 2012)

Ok, I was reading some things like this Green Cargo - The Revival of the Sailing Freighter | YachtPals.com, and let's be honest, I'd love to be able to try something like that. On a whim I started researching LTL/loose cargo in my area (I live in Los Angeles), and 1 Ton over ground ranges between $700-1700 for what amounts to an 85-95 mile sail (about 13 hours)! Throw green sails on her, print "Zero Emissions" on the business card and throw the word "Sustainable" around a bit and I'm pretty sure you can put yourself in the upper half of that range without losing business. 

Actual research to see if there's a market would take more work, but I started thinking about the LEGALITY of the whole thing. What licenses/insurance you'd need... And I can't find it.

I didn't find "Nothing";

The "6-pack" is only for vehicles that have "passengers for hire" (NVIC 7-94 specifies that this includes things like school vessels, since the class was paid). 6-Pack iisn't required.

The USCG Master is only needed for "Inspected Vessels", and "title 46 vol4 section 90.05-1" specifically states that sail vessels under 700 Tons and motor under 300 tons are both listed as "uninspected" unless they carry "listed items" (hazmat, fuel, etc). So Master isn't required.

There doesn't seem to be any other options. So... What am I missing? It's the 21st century, I can't fart and burp in unison without a permit, are you telling me that I could start delivering as a business without anything other than the basic USCG safety course (and cargo insurance, etc)?


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

Might need a business license at least somewhere. Captains ticket would probably be dictated by insurance requirements.
Perhaps check with the USCG for any vessel requirements?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

How green is green? Motorless sailboat? Only motor when wind is below X knots? Cargo doesn't show, if the wind doesn't blow? Not sure my questions get to licensing.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Trucks go from pick-up point to delivery point for the goods. With the boat, you still have to have truck transport from pick-up location to the dock, and then truck transport again for final delivery, don't you? What would that do to earnings calculation?


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

The other issue you may encounter in California is the actual loading and unloading. If you are anywhere near a commercial cargo terminal the unions will be all over you about only using union personnel to do the actual work. Good idea though, I hope you can make it work without too many hoops to jump through. That is actual free enterprise, a commodity that is rapidly becoming extinct.


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## orionmetz (Dec 31, 2012)

I get there are a lot of other costs involved, there always are. But even if half the income ($650) is spent on pickup/delivery vans to and from docks, you'd still end up bringing in 50 per hour per ton; and if you gut the galley/head/tanks and overfit the sails for light wind you could probably fit 2 tons on a 30-35 footer and only dip 3-4 inches, just pick a boat designed to carry excess gear from the start. Hell, UPS charges $300 in "Fuel Surcharge" alone for the 90 mile trip from LA to Santa Barbra! Add in the lower maintenance costs (sail per mile vs van per mile costs have got to be insane) and I'm reasonably certain you could manage to match rates, pay for short distance delivery from third party, and still make more than a waiter; all while sailing.

It is much slower (13 hours vs 4 hours) and dependent on wind, but I imagine there are plenty of eco and youth centered businesses in Cali that would be interested in reducing fuel use. In any case I was just asking about the regulation issues.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

A slower, less convenient and less reliable method of shipping small loads? No offense, but I don't see this concept being a viable business model in a 1st World situation.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Fstbttms said:


> A slower, less convenient and less reliable method of shipping small loads? No offense, but I don't see this concept being a viable business model in a 1st World situation.


Don't know about licenses check with the fmcsa 
Regulations | Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration
As far as small slow freight they make it work quite well here in Washington and Puget sound
Another link
http://www.marad.dot.gov/


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"What licenses/insurance you'd need... And I can't find it."

Perhaps you need a translator.

You're planning to START A BUSINESS. Look up state and municipal business licensing and call the free help from the Small Business Administration. Ask your local reference librarian for some books on that too.

And you're planning to MAKE COMMERCIAL USE OF A BOAT. The USCG will be glad to tell you what you'll need to do that legally.

Whether you'll need to join a union or fight your way through them, good luck with that. Nice if it worked out for you, just find some MBA student to write a business plan for you, and go over the finances, from anchor chain to head pumpouts, all the expenses you might be missing. And the costs of running a business. Self-employed, you pay double social security (both halves) among other surprises. Corporate, and you pay other business taxes.

Library and SBA might be good places to start.


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## orionmetz (Dec 31, 2012)

Fstbttms said:


> A slower, less convenient and less reliable method of shipping small loads? No offense, but I don't see this concept being a viable business model in a 1st World situation.


You're welcome to think that, it's offtopic (since I was asking about licensing, not market research). Also I'm pretty sure you're wrong, "a lower quality/efficient or higher priced service with better environmental impact" pretty much describes every business model in the Green movement. It's important to think of it like a luxury service; Maserati doesn't provide the best value (10x the price of a honda doesn't get you 10x the car) and it's only "worth" the cost to people who value that niche. I'm pretty sure people who care about emissions will consider the benefits worth the costs, and business owners who sell to those people will see the marketing value of being involved.



hellosailor said:


> "What licenses/insurance you'd need... And I can't find it."
> 
> Perhaps you need a translator.


So I press period instead of the semicolon once and now I don't speak English? Nice. Part of being fluent in a language is being able to read around a minor typo and infer meaning; don't worry, you'll get there.

The SBA is good advice, I've been there before for previous things and they generally know nothing about specific industries, their job is primarily business plans (which I know the basics of) and loans/grants. Basically the SBA comes AFTER finding out the legal implications on your own, which requires a lawyer; I was just hoping that if there was a simple disqualifier I was missing in my own research someone on here would let me know.

Also on a side note, when a poster lists multiple regulations and specific lines of Federal code from his original research like this one does, telling them to "check the library" is more than a little unnecessary.



newhaul said:


> Don't know about licenses check with the fmcsa
> Regulations | Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration
> As far as small slow freight they make it work quite well here in Washington and Puget sound
> Another link
> MARAD | United States Maritime Administration


Thanks man, I tried looking through there and it seemed like it was car/truck only. I also found the Federal Marine Commission, which only applies to international. And USCG reg specifically states the concept is except from both 6-pack AND master licenses (which are the only ones); hence coming here for help.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

I expect the coast guard regs will require the carriage of cargo for hire to be done on an "inspected vessel" that is designed and built under CG approval, and skippered by a captain with a big enough license for that vessel, meaning a minimum 25- ton masters license for inspected vessels ( or 50 or 100 or more, depending on vessel tonnage measurement).

Check with the vessel inspection section of the nearest CG Sector office to find out for sure.


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## orionmetz (Dec 31, 2012)

nolatom said:


> I expect the coast guard regs will require the carriage of cargo for hire to be done on an "inspected vessel" that is designed and built under CG approval, and skippered by a captain with a big enough license for that vessel, meaning a minimum 25- ton masters license for inspected vessels ( or 50 or 100 or more, depending on vessel tonnage measurement).
> 
> Check with the vessel inspection section of the nearest CG Sector office to find out for sure.


That's what I'm saying though, Coast Guard Inspected Vessel Regs (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2008-title46-vol4/pdf/CFR-2008-title46-vol4-sec90-05-1.pdf) list Motor ships as requiring Inspection if they carry more than 15 Tons of cargo, but sail powered cargo ships under 700 tons as Uninspected UNLESS they carry passengers OR restricted cargo... So as far as I can TELL a small ship can carry cargo and still be "personal". Which is when I came here asking for clarification.

Maybe it's just an oversight, no sailed ships carry cargo, so they didn't bother to add them?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I suggest you call or email your local Coast Guard Auxillary. Someone there would find this a great mission to sort out the applicable regs. I would not call and ask "is this okay", as a volunteer zelot may just say no. I would call and ask to be pointed to the appropriate regulations, whereby, you'll likely be put in touch with the person that gets into the regs.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

LCL cargo still goes in a container; it is just consolidated at a cargo consolidator, before being put aboard a ship.
In the early 80's I attempted to put together a sailing cargo operation in the Caribbean, as the shippers were not making money on carrying one or two 40' containers down island. It was economically viable for them to break down the cargo into smaller containers and ship them with another agency, in this case my vessels, all at their expense.
The route would have been Puerto Rico to Trinidad and back via the Windwards and Leewards, a realistic route for a sailing vessel over 150'.
Long story short, I could find no backers for the operation except the SIU (Seaman's International Union); they would give me whatever I needed IF I used US union crew, an economic impossibility, in this case.
Unfortunately, it won't work today as dozens of 40' containers go to each island weekly, but it would have been a gas back then.
As for licensing, merchant mariner licenses start at 1600 tons. These are not passenger carrying licenses, though of course they could be used to captain a cruise ship.
These licenses are mostly obtained through a four year course at a merchant marine academy, such as King's Point or California Merchant Marine Academy.
The days of uncle Joe operating his Greek relative's tanker on a give away license are long gone and the International Maritime Organization requires licensing through reputable systems these days, to operate any large commercial vessel.
Tramping (uncontainerized cargo) on a vessel over 1000 tons, is almost unheard of these days, as the cost of loading and unloading are pretty much prohibitive and the security of the cargo (as in theft) is hard to insure.
There are a few sailing cargo vessels in operation today, such as Tres Hombres, and they are making a valiant effort to be successful, however maintaining a regular schedule under sail alone, is just as difficult for them as it is for us cruisers.


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

Only folks I know of that do this are the Haitian sloops that run back and forth from Haiti to Nassau (and probably other islands).
Their overhead is low, doing things like using tree limbs for spars, but
I imagine they only make 3rd world size profits though.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Here is another place to mine. ( I did the truck freight bit not boats ) 
Deprecated Browser Error


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

orionmetz said:


> That's what I'm saying though, Coast Guard Inspected Vessel Regs (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2008-title46-vol4/pdf/CFR-2008-title46-vol4-sec90-05-1.pdf) list Motor ships as requiring Inspection if they carry more than 15 Tons of cargo, but sail powered cargo ships under 700 tons as Uninspected UNLESS they carry passengers OR restricted cargo... So as far as I can TELL a small ship can carry cargo and still be "personal". Which is when I came here asking for clarification.
> 
> Maybe it's just an oversight, no sailed ships carry cargo, so they didn't bother to add them?


You may be right--that's why I advise checking with the CG. One thing I noticed is while "sail only" doesn't require a license carrying at least passengers for hire, adding even a small auxiliary engine makes her a "mechanically propelled vessel" for inspection purposes. So, as a personal example, I can get paid to teach on a motorless sailboat, but need the license once that 4-horse outboard is present. And if so, doing "sail only" gets expensive if you need to get towed in and out of harbors etc.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Also, read up on the Sherman Act. You will need a union card, and go to the hall and hire union crew.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

The Alexander act would be more appropriateto reference for maritime trade.
There are some ways around the commercial freight laws. You purchase the items ( officially showing a receipt of purchase). 
Then selling it for a small profit to the intended reciepent. ( profits equal to the shipping fee you would charge).
M2CW


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"So I press period instead of the semicolon once and now I don't speak English? Nice. Part of being fluent in a language is being able to read around a minor typo and infer meaning; don't worry, you'll get there."

Orion-
I wasn't referring at all to your native tongue or your typos. I was referring to your missing the translation from the specifics of your search, to the abstracts of the general terms, i.e. "Business license" or "cargo vessel regulation" which would quickly find you the answers. "Translation" has more than one meaning, to paraphrase your own words, as _you'll _eventually find out.

As you may have heard on racing boats, "Get your head out of the cockpit!"

That doesn't mean chop it off and hoist it up the yardarm, it means expand your view, and perhaps your consciousness. Stop zooming in on what you think are the issues, zoom OUT and the broader ones will hold your answers.

For instance, if you _are delivering cargo_, you fall under one set of regulations, which some people will feel compelled to enforce. But if you are physically doing very much the same thing, but you are _formally teaching people how _to deliver cargo or _researching alternative costs _of delivering cargo, you may find you are no longer engaged in the same business at all, and allowed to go about your way.

As long as it is not disruptive to the others who _are _in the business of delivering cargo.

And I'm not just pulling that out of a hat. A good friend of mine once cut one wire, so his facilities could be moved on schedule. An entire skyscraper of unions said "You're not allowed to CUT WIRES, you're not IN THE UNION" and threatened to go out on strike until that wire was reconnected (together with the facility that had already been moved) so the UNION could re-cut it.
The official major national union bargaining decision was that my friend was only _demonstrating _how to cut a wire, which his job allowed for, therefore, no union action would be needed.
Privately, he was told to never, ever, touch a wire cutter again.


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## grnrngr (Oct 8, 2014)

You would definitely need a business license for the business end of it, and the coast guard license required would depend on the size of your ship. Once you get past the 100 or 200 ton license (I forget which), you need to have a mate on the boat, in order to get that masters ticket, you have to serve as a mate on that size vessel for at least a year then pass the masters test. Obviously you would have to pass the mates test first. As the ships get larger, they then require a second mate, then a third mate. You must progress up the ladder to become the master. There are also restrictions on the cargoes you can carry, you'd definitely want to talk to the coast guard. You might also want to contact Salish Sea Trading Co-operative, they are actually doing this.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> A good friend of mine once cut one wire, so his facilities could be moved on schedule. An entire skyscraper of unions said "You're not allowed to CUT WIRES, you're not IN THE UNION" and threatened to go out on strike until that wire was reconnected (together with the facility that had already been moved) so the UNION could re-cut it.


That's funny, because I witnessed a very similar thing once. Only in this case we were installing a computer system. Brought a bunch of serial cables with us. Union guy said, "You can't install those cables. The rules say that union guys have to install all of the connectors."

So we cut off the connectors and then sat around and watched for a couple of hours while two union guys wired new connectors onto the ends of all the cables. You can guess how that affected my opinion of unions!


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