# LiveAboard, Cheap Sailboat, With Shallow Draft for Inland Waterways.



## SUBMITGUY505 (Sep 12, 2007)

Dear Sailnet Community,
What kind of boat should I buy if I wanted a live-aboard boat for 2 (at least), could not spend very much money, and wanted a boat that would travel the inland waterways of the world, especially ireland and europe. Ireland has 4ft drafts. Id like a sail boat. Id like shallow drafts. Id like a lot of space, speed, and safety. I have been looking at westsails, and tartars, but they all have deeper drafts then allowed on the waterways of ireland. 
I have about 50,000 dollars, and want to keep it under 40 ft. And I want a boat that is safe, lots of storage.
What boat should I get?
From,
Submitguy


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Umm... you're not going to get space, speed, safety and a shallow draft in a single boat as a general rule. An Alberg 30 is one boat I can think of that two people could liveaboard, and IIRC it has about a four-foot draft. 

However, it really sounds like you want a small catamaran, like a Catalac 8M. This would give you shallow draft, lots of space, fairly good turn of speed and is pretty safe. The Heavenly Twins 26, the Iroquois MkI or MkII, the Gemini are other catamarans that might fit the bill as well. 

Most monohull sailboats, that have a shallow draft have to either give up storage or safety for the shallow draft. Most won't be less than four feet in a shallow draft version, and the few that are may be too small for two people or way out of your budget, like the Shannon Shoalsailor.

All four of the catamarans I've mentioned have made Atlantic crossings, but have a board up draft of less than two feet IIRC.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Have a look at the old traditional styles of sailing boat that the Dutch still make and use. They are built for what you want.

http://www.alleschepen.nl/advert/Vollenhovense_Bol_Leoida_/~45677.0.0.0.0.html

For example


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Go to Ireland and buy a boat there!


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Better still, go to Holland to buy, the further North you go in Europe the lower cost of boating becomes.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Southerly makes some swing keel boats (in England) that might fit your bill as well.


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## SUBMITGUY505 (Sep 12, 2007)

This southerly boat looks to be about perfect. Thanks for replying to my thread.

From,
the guy.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Inland waterways typically means "no room, no room!" and canals where sailing may be prohibited. It certainly will not be feasible to sail in canals, there's a reason folks use canal boats and barges to live/cruise in those inland waterways. 

Take a good look at where you want to go, and what is already being used there. Odds are there's a reason for it. A sailboat makes a terribly impractical way to travel, or place to live, if you can't use the sails to move it.


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## SUBMITGUY505 (Sep 12, 2007)

What are these traditional dutch boats called? It is difficult for me to research them becuase I don't speak the language and I don't know the names of the boats. 

Also, about the problems with cruising the inland waterways with shallow draft sailboats - can the masts come down on these boats, and cruise in the waterways with the motor only? This last poster says it to be impractical if not under sail, but I wouldn't think it impractical for a ship that would sail the ocean to sail in inland waterways with its engine. That would very practical, if, there is a boat that can do it. So the mast sticking way up in the air would not be practical. That would need to come down. Are there any boats that fit the description above plus lowerable mast? Ocean going live-aboard, safe, swing keel or shallow draft somehow, and swing mast, or lowerable mast. Plus plenty of space for supplies and people. The southerly was suggested, and a traditional dutch sailboat. 

Can the masts go down on the Southerly?


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## ceol (Apr 15, 2007)

I can not think of a boat in the length you are looking at that has a mast that can lowered without a crane. i have a 33' mast on my 29' boat. they just get longer as the boat gets longer. Getting enough leverage to hoist and lower a mast of that length is nearly impossible. It takes two people and 50' of line for me to raise the mast on my Nacra 17, and it is designed to be raised and lowered. 

Sailboats also carry a fairly limited amount of fuel on board. Their primary propulsion is the sail.  you may find yourself refueling more than you think.

you might want to look into trawlers and not sailboats. 

G~


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Try searching for "dutch canal boat" and you'll get plenty of hits, in English. I'm not sure what Idiens is thinking of, but a flat-bottomed shoal-draft Dutch sailboat, designed for sailing in shallow _seas_ is not suitable for inland waterways.

"can the masts come down on these boats" Yes, typically you rig primer cord around the mast and detonate it, then cut the rigging clear with wire cutters. Or you find a yard with a crane, and pull the mast.

" but I wouldn't think it impractical for a ship that would sail the ocean "
Ships are defined generally as more than 100 feet long. Smaller craft are "boats". No offense, but I think you've got a blurry romantic picture of "things that float" without the details pencilled in. What is comfortable at sea, what is practical at sea, what is comfortable to live in, and how to live in a space smaller than a travel trailer, are all very different from barge boats and canal boats. 
Do some internet searches on "barge boats" and "canal boats" and "inland waterways of Europe" or wherever you plan to go, and just believe that there are real reasons why people are not using other kinds of boats. Or, take sailing lessons and then charter the kind of boat you think you can use--and you may find out why it isn't being used that way.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

SUBMITGUY505 said:


> This southerly boat looks to be about perfect. Thanks for replying to my thread....


The Southerly's are fine for shoal draught around the North Sea coasts but not much use for the majority of canals with low, non-opening bridges, as their masts need a crane to remove.

I thought the question was for a sailing boat that had little draught for use on the canals. That's why I suggested you look at the boat (scow?) that I linked. Look at the pictures, it sails, it has shallow draught, it has a mast in a tabernacle and an A-frame to lower and raise the mast any time you want to. It will also have an engine and tankage enough for canal use, because that's what the Dutch do inland. I would not chose such a vessel for ocean cruising, but they have been used for that, and they are very good coastal craft and can handle the nasty chop of the North Sea.
But if you don't want to sail (and you can't much on European canals) then get a motor boat or a converted barge. Again, I would recommend Holland as a source for those too. The wealth of choice there is considerable.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

But you can find them in the US too...;

http://yachtbroker.escapeartist.com/boats/action/view/boat/635/index.html

Try searching for Tjalk (the boat type) in

http://www.botenbank.nl/


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Inland bound*

I noticed you have a requirement of fast for your boat.Sail boats are not what you call fast.excluding the cats,but even they are not really fast.I agree you will do no sailing on a canel and in fact will have to travel with the mast down and tied to the boat because of bridges and such.Good Luck with your dream.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Umm... you're not going to get space, speed, safety and a shallow draft in a single boat as a general rule. An Alberg 30 is one boat I can think of that two people could liveaboard, and IIRC it has about a four-foot draft.
> 
> However, it really sounds like you want a small catamaran, like a Catalac 8M. This would give you shallow draft, lots of space, fairly good turn of speed and is pretty safe. The Heavenly Twins 26, the Iroquois MkI or MkII, the Gemini are other catamarans that might fit the bill as well.
> 
> ...


Multihull beam and inland waterways ? Does that compute ? Many of the canals in the UK and Ireland may not be wide enough.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Many of the smaller catamarans are fairly narrow.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Many of the smaller catamarans are fairly narrow.


You mean like a monohull with *really* big bilge keels?? 

--Cameron


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Those Dragonfly trimarans are cool. Their folding anas (sp?) would fit down most canals. Not sure they fit in the desired price bracket though.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Idiens said:


> Those Dragonfly trimarans are cool. Their folding anas (sp?) would fit down most canals. Not sure they fit in the desired price bracket though.


As a trimaran owner, I can tell you that trimarans have far less room than a monohull of the same LOA.

The other problem is that the Dragonfly folding system causes some maneuverability problems by extending the effective LOA of the boat when folded and essentially moving the rudder from transom mounted to five or six feet forward of the effective stern. The Dragonflies aren't really designed to be motored with the amas folded IMHO.


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## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> As a trimaran owner, I can tell you that trimarans have far less room than a monohull of the same LOA.
> 
> The other problem is that the Dragonfly folding system causes some maneuverability problems by extending the effective LOA of the boat when folded and essentially moving the rudder from transom mounted to five or six feet forward of the effective stern. The Dragonflies aren't really designed to be motored with the amas folded IMHO.


Dog,

Yes, the Dragonflies get a little longer when folded, however they're still very stable and can be motored around while walking around on them w/o issues. They were designed with that in mind. Just note that ANY tri that folds shouldn't be sailed while folded! However I also like the folding mechanism of the Telstar 28 that you mentioned in another post! (Don't think the Telstar looks as hot as the Dragonfly though  )


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## Slooptattoo (Aug 4, 2007)

Doesn't "Marine Trader" make a motor sailor with deck stepped mast with a mast crane built exactly for something like this. I don't know what the smaller model was but the larger one was an "Errol Flynn". Just jogging out some old cobwebs and did not try to research it myself, but you may want to take a look. From what I was told it sailed like a dog, but met the other qualifications. Unsure on pricing. Boat was Taiwan built.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

LOL... not really all that stable, since some of the forward buoyancy and stability is lost by moving the amas aft and in. BTW, are you saying the Telstar is ugly??? Them's is fighting words...  Of course, my opinion may be a bit biased, since I own one. 










JomsViking said:


> Dog,
> 
> Yes, the Dragonflies get a little longer when folded, however they're still very stable and can be motored around while walking around on them w/o issues. They were designed with that in mind. Just note that ANY tri that folds shouldn't be sailed while folded! However I also like the folding mechanism of the Telstar 28 that you mentioned in another post! (Don't think the Telstar looks as hot as the Dragonfly though  )


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## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

I did not have s.. Sorry - I did not say that the Telstar was ugly! Actually I like it. However I like the Dragonfly more!
Here's a snippet from the Dragonfly website regarding the 800:
"Some people would comment that the disadvantage by the Swing Wing system is that the boats get longer in folded position. This is correct, but this also protects the rudder and the outboard, when these are folded up. By this, it represents the same length anyway."
Some of the bigger models have an inboard engine, as requested by Paul Elvstrøm (I actually think he just told them to remove the ugly outboard IIRC).
And yes, I'm biased! I've sailed on a Dragonfly, but never on a Telstar!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

LOL... I've sailed on Corsairs, Dragonflies and the Telstar... got the Telstar... and like the way you can motor with the amas closed... very useful for getting in and out of the marina. 

However, to get back to the topic... trimarans are probably not really good boats for this purpose. They're too wide when rigged for sailing, and don't really have enough cargo capacity or living space to be workable for most people.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*66 iroquois hull 26!*

I just made a deal to procure the boat, I'm going down this weekend to refinish the hull and I should have her in the water in two weeks.

Anyone know any history on this boat? She was named "Wag" I suppose in a refrence to tacking?

Thanks!
David


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## LookingForCruiser (Feb 7, 2007)

Oh nice, I'm closing on an Iroquois MkII in a couple of days.

The owners association web site is at Home

The web site is a bit ugly right now though, it's transitioning from a previous administrator I think

There is also an active Yahoo mailing list, IroquoisCats : Iroquois Catamarans


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Congratulations you guys... post photos when you can.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*thanks*

I have attempted to attach some pictures of her in her current state, and one of a boat I want her to look like.
lets see if this works
D


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*thanks*

I cant figure that out, upload attachment gives an error, and ... holdup...










at least thats what it will look like after it gets sprayed this weekend.
D


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Darwinless-

Basically, the photo attaching function is whacked... read the POST in my signature to figure out how to link to them from an external site, like flickr.com. You'll need 10 posts to do that though.

Here's your photo.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*wow*

Thanks
Will get acquainted with protocol after ten posts I suppose!

Heading down tomorrow to prep, paint and relax(ha-ha) her "wag" ing arse

Tomorrow after work. prep and bondo sat morn, meantime prepandprime rest
by sat night hopefully base and clear done.....

Why I'm here? still want to find a registry of boat names,- possible history on the 26th hull MK1 built ...... "WAG" has got to have more of a history, or her story, I could give a snot, just want to know her's in particular story.
She has been butchered and added to in both secure preservation, but needs much love.
I seem to have and luck finding great divine gifts of human design and furthermore delight in making attempts in their charge of preserving them.


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