# Pilothouse designs



## kwaltersmi

I'm in the midst of my weekly "search" for a cruising vessel. I've been coming acrossed a lot of pilothouse designs. I've never sailed on a pilothouse boat, but I'm intrigued.

Can anyone help me out with pros and cons for cruising (bluewater, island hopping, etc.) with a pilothouse design?

Here's what I've got so far:

Pros: More cabin space, well-lighted cabin space, dry shelter for wet passages, added secuity (?), anything else?

Cons: More weight (?), less forward visibility, anything else?


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## camaraderie

Hot in tropics...no breeze in cockpit. Winch positions & sail control generally a bit compromised. Generally less sailing performance due to changed sail plan. Windage at anchor and in storms. Increased rocking in wakes/cross-swells. 
There is nothing wrong with a pilot house but as with any design, there are pros and cons. The big plus of course is shelter from the weather and cold and this is why you see more up north and far fewer in the tropics.


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## TrueBlue

This page identifies one yacht-builder's philosophy of their pilothouse concept:

http://www.nauticat.com/Default.aspx?id=435171

On our boat, forward visibility is excellent, due to the full height aft cabin which raises the sight lines from the aft deck helm above the pilothouse roof. The negative effect of this however, is an increase in moment since we are higher off the water line when sailing from the aft helm.


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## kwaltersmi

It seems that some pilothouse designs offer dual steering stations...one in the pilothouse and one in an open cockpit area behind the pilot house.

Here's an example of one that I really like: http://www.boats.com/listing/boat_details.jsp?entityid=12658991&searchtype=buy&searchid=1&back=%2Flisting%2Fcache%2Flisting_search_results.jsp%3FpayingBrandsOnly%3Dtrue%26payingBrandsOnly%3Dtrue%26enid%3D0%26ftid%3D0%26ps%3D30%26man%3Dtashing%26psdistance%3D500%26Search.x%3D0%26searchtype%3Dbuy%26hmid%3D0%26sm%3D3%26luom%3D126%26currencyid%3D100%26sfm%3Dfalse%26ic%3Dtrue%26Search.y%3D0%26slim%3Dquick%26searchPage%3D%252Flisting%252Fcache%252Fadvanced_search.jsp


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## TrueBlue

Nice boat, but compare the forward visibilty from the aft helm of that selection with the helm of a NC33:

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/2/6/5/8/1265899_7.jpg?1://


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## Faster

Pilothouse designs make the most sense in coastal cruisers when extended off-season sailing is planned, and so can be desirable in our area (PNW) for those that like to use the boat year round.

There is a huge variety of designs, some leaning towards function and others trying a little harder to maintain attractive lines. Most pilothouse designs that have good visibility from the inside steering stn (why have a pilothouse without one?) will tend to have large windows, a liability at least and a possible bluewater hazard in severe seas.

Windage is, of course, increased as well, but the biggest negative for most of these designs is extremely compromised visibility from the aft cockpit (with the exception of the Nauticats)

Pilothouse designs tend to look "chunky" until you get to and above the 50foot overall range. Two exceptions to this are Garden designed Gulf 29 and 32, which have relatively low pilothouses, but inside visibility is not great. Of the PNW built options in the 40 foot range, the Cooper 416 and the Sceptre 41/43 each take a different approach, with the Sceptre the sleeker of the two.

P/H designs don't make much sense for the tropics, IMO.


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## TrueBlue

Additionally, the pilothouse helm has full visibility as well, plus a large operable hatch and large port/starboard sliding doors. Great ventilation and safe access when on either tack.


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## christyleigh

Since your first word after cruising is Bluewater in your criteria I would have to direct you to Nauticat's other line of Pilothouses. True Blue and Christy Leigh are in Nauticat's 'Traditional Motorsailor' line and only receive a 'B' rating because of the sliding pilothouse door amidships - even though they are more beefy than many 'A' rated boats. Their 'Pilothouse Sailing Yacht' line however is 'A' Ocean rated resembles the one sited with the significant advantage of visibility Over and Around the pilothouse for the reasons TB mentioned.


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## sailortjk1

O.k., maybe I am way off in the deep end, please correct me if I am wrong. 

In my boat searching and researching, what I have seen of Pilot House boats: I will agree that the inside stearing station does have its appeal, But what I did not find appealing is that the size of the main salon is compromised.

On our aft cockpit boat, you decend down into an open salon with plenty of room for people to dine, cook watch tv and to be in generally comfortable environment.

What I have found with a PH boat is that you move from the cockpit into the pilot house which is usually only big enough for the helm, a dinette, and chart table. Than you decend into the salon which has to be reduced in size comparably because of the fact that the vessel has a pilot house. 

Are not the salons on PH boats smaller because of the house?


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## sailingdog

I guess it depends on the design of the boat. IIRC, at least on the Nauticats, the pilothouse doesn't have a dinette table..the salon below does.. Might want to look at this webpage, which is for the smallest of the Pilothouse Sailboat Nauticats, the 321. It gives a 3-D view of the salon. You do need QuickTime installed IIRC for it to work properly though. The salon is a couple of steps down from the pilothouse. The aft cabin is a bit lower still. You also have to step down to get to the galley, head and forward cabin/v-berth.


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## TrueBlue

sailortjk1,

There are two pilothouse options with the "Traditional" Nauticat 33 models, one pilothouse door, or two. One door allows for a large U-shaped lounge along the port side, surrounding a teak "dinette" table. The helm is not on the centerline, but far over to starboard. This arrangement is nice because of it's large "single" seating area. But, if on a port tack, one can only access the pilothouse on the low side of the vessel - kinda scary if heeling sharply.

On the two door design (True Blue's), the helm is centered, but a removable cushion over a slide-out teak base, converts the port side steps into an extended L-shaped lounge. There is a teak dinette table and a separate seat "split" from the dinette, to starboard, flanking the companionway door down to the aft cabin. The pilothouse is quite large but can only comfortably seat 5 people at the dinette, but 6-7 if moveable stools/chairs are used.

The dinette in the forward salon/galley below seats 6. Therefore the cabin area seats 12, although split in two spaces. 7 people can sleep comfortably - but who wants to do that in a 33 foot boat?


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## christyleigh

On Christy Leigh the pilothouse IS the salon. I tried to attach photos but they are too big. I've got to scale down my megapixels. Any way my pilothouse/salon table is over 6x3 with a wrap around settee about 8' long with 4' at each end which takes up only half of the pilothouse. We dine with a beautiful view and full curtains offer complete coverage at night. We are not big entertainers but we could seat 5 or 6 comfortably. My 'liveaboard interior' trades the small salon in the 'normal' 33's for a stand alone shower. I rafted up with a couple of 40' Nauticats lately and they said they would like to do something else with their 2nd salon - because who needs two. I have my TV built into the wall of the aft cabin for watching from bed. Your thinking reminds me of my thoughts when I was comming from a c320 with a large salon. Now I have a 'split level' house for gathering in the middle or my wife reading in the aft cabin while I kick back sitting in my little den in the forward cabin listening to music a few rooms away.


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## sailingdog

Both TrueBlue and ChristyLeigh are Nauticat Motorsailors, rather than their "tradtional" sailboats per se... yes??


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## TrueBlue

Sorry for these photos, if people are using dialup, but here's a view showing another side of the pilothouse:










The aft windows (ports), with curtains opened, allow 360 degree visibility.


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## christyleigh

Sailingdog - I listed the Nauticat catagories in a previous posting. I think the common misconception is that 'traditional' mean a standard configuration sailboat - NO - All Nauticat makes IS Pilothouse Sailboats. Thier listing is a bit counter-intuitive I agree but 'traditional' is the key as the 33 was thier first going back 40 years or so. The newer sleeker ones without the sliding side doors have only been around for half that. By the way TB even though I leave the port side setee insert in most of the time my right side steering configuration also has doors on both sides if I needed to use the port side door - if I was feeling wimpy and didn't want to walk on a rail in the water to get in that is....


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## sailingdog

What I meant by that was that the "traditional" boats are optimized for sail performance, rather than the motorsailors, like the Nauticat 33/331, which are not optimized for sail performance. I do know that all Nauticat makes are pilothouse designs, and given where they're made, it makes sense. Also, on the "motorsailor" configurations, the doors to the pilothouse are on the sides, and on the "sailboat" configurations, the door to the pilothouse appears to be aft.


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## TrueBlue

You are correct SD, in that the "Traditional Pilothouse" models are designed to be comfortable, cruising motorsailers. Some models (such as with CL & TB) have the modified fin keel, skeg-hung rudder and tall mast/rig options, and do sail surprisingly well w/o power.

The later designs by Sparkman & Stevens are high-performance sailing machines.


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## kwaltersmi

So is it fair to say that a PH makes for a less seaworthy bluewater boat (large salon windows, large salon door, etc.)? I was initially thinking they might make a better bluewater boat because of the increased shelter area during storms/squalls/etc. Perhaps I'm wrong. Or perhaps it's not possible to generalize about PH boats in regard to bluewater ability.


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## TrueBlue

I would have no reservations about doing a crossing, or circumnavigation for that matter, in this:

http://www.nauticat.com/Default.aspx?Id=436827&BoatId=13


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## sailingdog

I think their non-motorsailor designs are a bit more seaworthy. The side-mounted doors on the the motorsailors are a bit more vulnerable to breaking if the boat should get rolled than the aft pilothouse entrance located in the cockpit of the sailboats. 

The interesting thing to note is that the motorsailors are given a EU RCD Category B rating, mainly due to the door placement IIRC, and the sailboats are classified EU RCD A. 

While some pilothouse boats may be more seaworthy, it really depends on the specific design. Those that do not have a sufficiently strong pilothouse design may be less seaworthy, as they are also less stable than an identical hull without a pilothouse, since there is a higher center of gravity on a pilothouse boat. 

Large windows are only a problem if they aren't designed to resist the forces involved. In one sense, the ability to handle the boat from a sheltered location does improve the seaworthiness to some degree—primarily by protecting the crew better and allowing them to operate the boat more safely.


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## TSOJOURNER

My favorite topic! Pilothouse sailboats. Of course, living in the San Juan Islands/Pacific NW makes a PH a great choice for year round sailing. Plus, when properly designed, I just like the way they look. By that I mean the designer or architect started out designing a PH, not where the builder just added the PH to an existing model (I've seen some pretty unattractive examples of the latter).

William Garden has stated one of his favorite designs of all time was the "little Gulf 32". As a Capital Yachts product, I think it would need to be beefed up for true bluewater cruising, but many have done so without major modifications. IMHO, some other nice PH models with an inside helm (and these are SAILBOATS, not motorsailers, though living here I would love a Nauticat 32) are the Endurance 35 and 44; Sceptre 43; Hans Christian 39 PH; Corbin 39; Spindrift 43; Cooper 353 and 416; Tayana 37 PH; CT 41 PH; Rawson 30 PH (another Garden design); CSY 44 PH; Hardin 45; Newporter 41 (a wooden boat); Cascade 42 PH; and any number of custom Brewer, Benford, Buehler, Perry, and Garden designs. In fact, my last boat was a custom Garden Gulf 40 - flush deck with a low profile PH. Awesome boat! Visibilty from the aft cockpit was no problem whatsoever. Again, if the design is properly executed, visibility is not an issue.

If you are into motorsailers, the Nauticats are great, and I really love the look of the Fishers. Island Trader and Islander made some very roomy models great for living aboard, but not for sailing performance. The Columbia 41 and 45 are pretty roomy and supposedly sail decently. And Island Packet has just introduced their newest model, the SP Cruiser. 

A lot of people say the big windows on a PH are a problem. Storm plexiglass added to the outside helps. But then I met a couple in Tonga who sailed their Cooper 416 there with no problems, and Bob Bitchin sailed his Formosa 56 PH 50,000 miles back and forth across two oceans with no issues. Plus he owned two Formosa 51s and never had a problem with PH windows. My boat had been from Seattle to Alaska and back with rough conditions on the outside (not the Inside Passage), and the windows were never a worry.

I also know someone who was on a nasty Gulf Stream crossing on a Valiant 40 - a boat most everyone would agree is a safe, strong bluewater cruiser - and one of the cabin trunk portlights was caved in by a wave. Go figure, eh?

If you are a prudent mariner, I think a well designed and executed PH can make a perfectly fine bluewater passagemaker. I plan on cruising someday in one.


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## sailingdog

Moonfish-

Are you aware that only some of the Nauticats are designed as motorsailors, and* the others, including the Nauticat 321, are designed as auxiliary pilothouse sailboats, with an emphasis on sailing performance?*

The sailboats include the 321, 351, 37, 385, 42, and 515. The 33/331, 38, 44 are motorsailors.

Finally, the 321/351/37/385/42/515 are EU RCD A, while the 33/331/38/44 are EU RCD B.


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## TrueBlue

My wife and I really liked the build quality and layout of the 321 we inspected at the Newport Boatshow last year . . . but, nearly $300,000.00 for a partially fitted out, 32 ft sloop is pricey. With the way the exchange rates have changed, $300,000.00 US would equal $363,935.96 Euro.


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## TSOJOURNER

Sailingdog -

Yes, sorry I didn't make that more clear. I'm a big fan of Nauticats and know that most of the Siltala models are actually good performing sailboats. I only mentioned them in regards to motorsailers as I actually would love to own a mid-80s N32 up here (I like at least some exterior teak).

My list was also one that is made up mainly of boats that I like from the 70s and 80s, becuase that's what I can afford...


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## sailingdog

Moonfish-

The N32 is not a "motorsailor" according to the Nauticat site. Also, it wasn't designed until 1990. From the website.



> At the end of 1986 the yard launched an own design that became successful overnight, the Nauticat 35. The boat started a totally new era at the yard, since all yachts starting with the 35 have been designed by Kaj Gustafsson. Now even more attention was put on creating yachts with better sailing performance than earlier and still not loosing the traditional nauticat values as the cosy wooden interior, close warm pilothouse, and safe and good overall performance. The 35 was the first Nauticat in the range of pilothouse sailing yachts, and she was offered with sloop rigging as standard. Earlier the ketch rigging had been the traditional Nauticat way of rigging the boats. The size and accommodation of the aft cabin on a Nauticat 35 is still in the lead of yachts in this size.
> 
> Encouraged by the success of the 35 the yard and the designer Kaj Gustafsson launched the nauticat 32 in 1990. This was the smallest Nauticat ever built with the pilothouse concept and this yacht became exceptionally beloved all around the world. With various rigging and keel alternatives the 32 has been adapted for different markets and needs.


Given that the Nauticat 32 wasn't built until 1990, _what boat are you talking about_... it must be the Nauticat 33, which is their oldest design and is a motorsailor. By Siltala models, I'm assuming you mean their S-series, which were Sparkman & Stevens designs. However, since those boats were discontinued, all of their new sailboats (not motorsailors) were designed by Kaj Gustafsson.


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## TrueBlue

Here's a short history of Siltala Yachts (renamed Nauticat Yachts last year) :
http://www.nauticatusa.com/sowing_the_seeds_of_history.html

The earlier Nauticats were designed by a Finish architect - Aarniapaolo. His designs are still in production (not discontinued) and called "Traditional Pilothouse" yachts. S&S (among others) designed the later models.


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## christyleigh

TB- 
You have your currency rates reversed. When I read your post I thought that change would have been big world news - but not so. I just checked online and $100 = 82.43 Euros. They are still beating us up. As for the 321 naw... you would have to go to the 351 to get the room in a 331.


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## sailingdog

TrueBlue-

From the www.nauticat.com site, it seems to say that the S-series boats, which were the Sparkman & Stevens boats, are no longer in production. They list the Aaarnipaolo-designed motorsailors, and the Gustafsson-designed sailboats as current production models. I never said that the Aarnipaolo designs were discontinued... They are referred to as "Traditional Motorsailors", while the Gustafsson boats are designated "Pilothouse Sailing Yatchs."

ChristyLeigh's right, you have the currency conversion flipped... and the 331 is larger than the 321 because the 331 carries far more beam forward than does the 321, which is designed for better performance under sail. Also, the stern of the 321 is a reverse counter design with a swim ladder...so that loses more interior room, when compared to the double-ended design of the 331.


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## kwaltersmi

Anyone have any thoughts on the 31' Ta Shing Tashiba PH that I posted on page 1 of this thread? I'm not too familiar with the Ta Shing shipyard (or Bob Perry designs for that matter). It looks like a really nicely built boat at a fair price.


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## TrueBlue

You're both right about the currency exchange rate . . . just proves that you shouldn't come to me for investment advice. 

I wasn't interested in buying the 321, simply impressed by the design and quality, but in awe over the near-300k price. I love my NC33, with the wide bow and raised aft deck, it has the space rivaling some 40 ft boats we've been on.


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## christyleigh

Sailingdog-
Yes the 331 carries some beam forward - but not as much as you may think. On deck - Yes, when rafted up to the SS NC 40's a while ago our fordecks were about the same. But... the 331 (33 also) bow curves in to the water line Extremly leaving a Much Finer Entry than you would ever beleive looking at the 'on deck' layout ending up very similar to the SS 40's (or any other normal sailboat) at the water line - their bow being just a wedge with No Flare. The 331 bow is like many powerboats in that respect and it works great to splay the waves aside for a dry deck. That's why when they fine tuned the underbody a bit my 331 sails decently, not high on the wind (no pinching allowed), but good on a close reach.


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## TSOJOURNER

*Pacific Seacraft 32' PH*

I just returned from the from a 9 day cruise aboard my PH. It was an awesome voyage. One day saw 110 miles leave at the stern. It is a sailboat not a motor sailor. There are many nice things about a pilothouse, one of which is security; from the sun, the wind, the rain, the snow, the bugs, spray, cold, heat, fatigue, and so on. The view is great from inside when anchored or at a marina. Visability is excellent whether at the inside or outside helm. I am able to use my laptop for navigation at the inside helm. That saved me a bundle not having to purchase an overpriced chartplotter with those outrageous chips that need to be purchased. The screen is 14", and I can watch a movie and use the chartplotter and email at the same time if I wanted to. Try that with a $3,000 Raymarine Chartplotter. It is a fresh water vessel, and it should last me the rest of my sailing carrer, I hope. If you are thinking about a PH, good hunting, and pleasant dreams.


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## TSOJOURNER

Hi Sailingdog -

My mistake - I did mean the Nauticat 33 from the mid-80s.


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## christyleigh

I wasn't sure if I had the pictures of my pilothouse on my website the other day so if anyone is interested in a bunch of pictures of my projects and the NC 331 (livaboard interior) in general - http://www.stansail.com/


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## micksbuddy

Any opinions on Cheoy Lee pilothouse/motorsailers, in particular the 43?


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## jzeke16

*Tashiba 31 Pilothouse Cutter*



kwaltersmi said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on the 31' Ta Shing Tashiba PH that I posted on page 1 of this thread? I'm not too familiar with the Ta Shing shipyard (or Bob Perry designs for that matter). It looks like a really nicely built boat at a fair price.


I wasn't able to view the web page that you posted. But since these boats are extremely rare, I think I bought that particular boat. If anyone would like to know more about it, post a note.


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## lawriegubb

*pilot house*

Gotta love the inside helm.
Paid for with usually deep dark and limited sleeping cabin space.


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## Plumper

*My two bits....*

I am the owner of a Truant 33 pilothouse designed by Bill Garden. I would like to confirm that it is smaller inside than most other 33 footers I have been in. I believe that is because the pilothouse is raised (obvious) above a normal saloon's height so the occupants can see out the windows. This has the effect of reducing the usable width of the boat because the designer must stay inside the sides of the pilothouse which is narrower than the hull to allow people to pass by the house on deck. Once down inside the hull the boat is the same width as any other. The advantages are that the engine is under the pilothouse, central to the boat and very accessible. There are also huge tanks under the house for water (100 gals) and fuel (100 gals). In addition, the space between the sides on the house and the hull become storage. So, in summary, what I loose in sitting room I have gained in storage.

As for seaworthiness, I am concerned about the size of the pilothouse windows because they are the weak link in the house. A prudent sailor would have covers (for all windows) in case of breakage. On the other hand, the house is a huge area of buoyancy making the boat much more difficult to invert than the trunk cabin model. As for windage, I find that my house is a little higher than most trunk cabin boats but they all (except racers) seem to add ungainly dodgers and biminis to get out of the sun and the rain. That is not a problem for us. When compared with a boat rigged for cruising there is no difference in windage.

As for sailing ability, I was very pleasantly surprised by the way the Truant sails. She has a very healthy amount of sail area and a modern underbody and points as well as any other cruiser. She handles all the weather I have seen with aplomb and inspires confidence. It is a really bad day when the windows in the pilothouse get wet.

Finally, being able to keep a lookout from inside or from outside is a huge asset here in the PNW where I cruise. Even in the foulest weather, being tucked in behind the pilothouse but still outside beats trying to look through the wet, plastic, scratched and foggy windows of a dodger. Inside, I switch on the defogger and the windshield wiper and it is like driving a car. The drawback is the pilothouse fosters a certain degree of confidence in foul weather. It is wise to go outside every once in a while to feel the wind and rain and make sure you know what the weather really is.

After spending 4 months cruising between Victoria and Hartley Bay this past summer in very bad weather I have grown to love my little pilothouse.

Gary


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## Faster

Plumper - welcome to Sailnet.

Nice balanced post from someone with experience. Thanks.


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## Plumper

You can read about our trip at our blog:

www dot yotblog.com/jigger/

There are pictures of our boat at:

community dot webshots.com/user/plumper100

Gary


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## jessepps

*1981 45' Dufour 12000CT Pilothouse Ketch*

I have a 1981 45' Dufour 12000CT Pilothouse Ketch for sale.

Archangele was bought in St. Martin in 1994 and sailed back to Galveston, TX.

Re-powered last year with 1990 Perkins 85 HP. Presently in yard for bottom job.

We sailed Galveston Bay for 2 hours last Sunday without a hand on the wheel.

Jess Epps


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## jrd22

Plumper-always glad to welcome a new member and pilothouse owner. That's a nice looking boat you have. Hope to see you out there sometime.

Here's my 2 cents worth on the pilothouse discussion. I've sailed a 34' pilothouse here in Washington State and BC for 15+ years. For my area, where it is cool/cold and wet for 8-9 months of the year they are great, can't be beat. I don't mind being out in the rain and cold when sailing (well, not too much), but when motoring with no wind when it's pouring out I feel silly having to stand out there in my raingear, or huddle under the dodger. There are also a lot of times when it's just plain nasty out, blowing 40K, when I choose to motor, especially in narrow channels with the wind on the nose. It's safer and certainly more comfortable. The other major factor that we like about pilothouses is having the dinette in the pilothouse. I love being in an anchorage and being able to see all the other boats, wildlife, and scenery, even if it's cold or raining. There is always something going on and I feel like I'm missing out if I am "down below". So between spending time in the cockpit when it's nice out, and in the pilothouse when it's not, it's the best of both worlds. Even sailing here where the water warms up into the mid 50's (F) during the summer it can be chilly in the breeze so you can go inside for a warmup, and still enjoy the view and the ride .

We just bought a bigger pilothouse, a Brewer 40, for these same reasons. In addition, it has the galley up in the pilothouse and I think we are going to really like that too (Laurie is very excited about it). If we were planning to sail extensively offshore I probably wouldn't opt for the galley "up top", but then again the boat spent several years sailing all over the Pacific so I guess it worked for the original owners. I always thought that I wouldn't want a pilothouse if I was primarily going to be in a hot, humid climate, but we just spent a week on the boat in Honolulu preparing it to be shipped and it was surprisingly cool inside during the heat of the day. We had several days of little wind(we were at the dock working on removing everything on deck), mid 80's with high humidity and with the hatches and companionway open it was always very comfortable inside. We did have a couple of fans running, but no AC, and we came from 40F Seattle so we weren't accustomed to the heat. If fact, we both concluded that we want to take the boat back to Hawaii for at least one winter and live on it if possible(I know, it's already there, why not leave it? long story). 

The big concern for me is the glass area for offshore work. Even with 3/8 Lexan side windows, I think I will install 1/2" Lexan storm windows over them. And the windshields will be beefed up safety glass as well with some kind of emergency covers in case of a blow out.

I do not sail from inside the pilothouse, even though it is quite possible in a steady wind. I'll duck into the cabin for a minute in light winds, but unless I am alone I have someone take the watch. You are too insulated from the feel of the wind and the sounds to do any kind of a good job of sailing IMO, even though it is tempting when cold out. With a wind vane and steady trade winds and lot's of searoom maybe I would feel differently, I'll have to try it sometime and see, the solo racers do it all the time.

The other thing I like about pilothouses is that generally you have tremendous storage and excellent access to the engine for maintenance/repairs. One of the first things we did to the Northsea was install a new engine, we had the old Volvo out of the boat in an hour. Installation of the new one took somewhat longer) Our Brewer has a scary amount of storage and lot's of tankage. 

I would say that everything is a compromise, and if possible you should spend time on a traditional sailboat and a pilothouse either by chartering or crewing before making the decision to buy one. You also have to like the looks of it, and there are many different "styles" of pilothouse to choose from, you need to find what looks and feels right to you. For me there is no doubt in my mind, I prefer pilothouses and wouldn't consider anything else (unless someone wants to give me a nice Morris daysailor?), but the area we live in is particularly suited to pilothouses and I actually only have a few years of experience with anything else.

So many boats, so little time,
John


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## Faster

jrd22 said:


> ...So many boats, so little time,
> John


Shouldn't that be TOO many boats, so little time???


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## Idiens

We ought to start a pilothouse corner.


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## seapilot

*Pilothouse adds....*

I read with interest all the discussion on pilothouses..... I own a Cabo Rico PH 42, one of 3.... and yes, I know, they are pricey. It is true blue-water, Chuck Payne design, cutter rig with a clipper bow, cutaway forefoot full keel with a keel hung rudder. It is modeled after the CR 42 with a sleek pilothouse. As a PNW sailor, for now, the inside helm is a dream with repeaters in the cockpit... exellent visability and a lower windage that many standard deck designs due to a very low freeboard. All lines run to the cockpit with winches within arms length. The salon is smaller due to being inside the deck width, but the galley and "den" below are open due to the design. I will reinforce the windows before going offshore. Yacht World has hull #3 for sale with good pictures. Performance to wind is better than you might think with the staysail and the fact that it tracks so well and doesn't pound into the seas. the extra light in the salon is terrific here in the PNW and extra stowage is amazing... including a workshop and all the other toys.


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## jrd22

Faster- ain't that the truth!

Idiens- what kind of boat is that, looks nice.

Seapilot- nice boat, what kind of instruments do you have that you can get repeaters for the cockpit? I am going to be putting some new electronics in my new(to me) boat. Thanks

John


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## Idiens

jrd - mine is a Coronet Elvstrom 38 Mk I. Designed by Paul Elvstrom built in Mullerup, Denmark by Coronet (better known for stinkpots).










Elvstrom, used a hull design he had tank-tested for a racing boat with a bulb bow and couldn't resist using it. Coronet wanted a motor-sailor, so that's what they got.

Every marina in the Baltic has at least one, but they rarely escape that sea.


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## sailingdog

The paint looks like something out of the 1970's kitchens here... avocado green.  kind of an odd looking boat.


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## Idiens

sailingdog said:


> The paint looks like something out of the 1970's kitchens here... avocado green.  kind of an odd looking boat.


Yea, the Mk II's are blue and off-white instead and have other improvements. As to odd, well I think all the best boats are a little odd and not easily confused with those white-goods from Bene and co. The oddest have three hulls lashed together to stop them falling over.


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## seapilot

*repeaters*

JRD22: We had Simrad installed, chart/radar plus standard gauges.... masters inside in the dry and warm.... "slaves" in the cockpit... have fun!


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## TrueBlue

Good comeback Idiens.  Sd forgets at times that he lives in a glass house.


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## Idiens

Well, I have to be careful. After a summer of chasing a friend in a stinkpot from one marina to the next between storms, I began to appreciate the thought of 12 knots average instead of 6. Then SD pointed me to the Dragonfly 12m. Hmmm.... Now if that had a wheelhouse and I had a lot of money..... But I guess I just like odd boats.


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## sailingdog

Idiens-

You want to come over to the dark side.....


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## sidney777

*Pilothouse Air Cond in the Heat(whatever your location)*

When you and yours get overheated you can travel below if you you have Air Cond.
My experience in a Gulf 32 pilothouse; could not see in heavy rain or twilight. But, in daylight and light rain was good. I did Not have windshield wipers.
I traveled from CHICAGO to Appalaciola,Fl. on River from Chicago and Gulf of Mexico in Gulf and Waterway. When cold I steered below and sometimes turned on heat. (I had diesel generator)
If you can, get a LARGER boat with Pilothouse.
I bought Pilothouse after being in too many rainstorms on Lake Michigan. BUT, WHILE TOSSING AND TURNING IN A BAD STORM, STEERING INSIDE IS HARD TO DO. (so I steered from cockpit).


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## Idiens

Frankly, I hardly ever steer. Just in and out of the mooring and down canals. After that, the autohelm is given that task. If I have crew, they get to steer, it keeps their eyes on the horizon and their minds busy away from seasickness.

I run the heating regularly when underway. North Sea summers can be chill immediately the sun stops shining. 

When it rains (often) I have windscreen wipers, and I'm thinking of adding washers too. Otherwise its necessary to stick one's head out - not the reason why I bought a wheelhouse.


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## sailingdog

BTW, for the guys with pilothouses... GET RAIN-X and use it on the glass.


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## GySgt

sailingdog said:


> BTW, for the guys with pilothouses... GET RAIN-X and use it on the glass.


I don't think common sense is allowed in the forums, just unsubstantiated opinions


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## sailingdog

Rick—

My boat's a trimaran... Chuckles has a Cat.


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## Idiens

Thanks Rick. I agree with you. Particularly in the North Sea, I'm in short sleeves waving my glass at the occupants of open cockpits who are out there helming in their oilies braving the rain and the 30 second repeats of buckets of cold salt water in the face (Fisherman's Friend adverts - If the're too strong - you're too weak).

Yes Nauticats are really nice boats, but I can't afford them, I think it's because their agents buy the old ones back in part exchange for new and hold the re-sale prices high.

However, I don't really like the two steering positions, neither are optimal, whereas I have one and a convertible pilot house. Conversely, some Nauticat pilot houses are really part of the interior, so are more livable. Whereas, mine is for working the boat and navigation. I stress the later as I can spread out a full Admiralty chart in mine. Here's a picture taken when I was test sailing the boat - things have changed a little since then.










There's a MkII Coronet Elvstrom 38, called Coo-Eee, for sale at the moment in NZ, look on ybw.com for additional pictures.


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## Idiens

SD - Yes I am tempted by the speed of Tri's, but it's hardly the dark side, Darth Vader drives a power boat (thingy) with paddle wheels.

Is there a Tri with a pilot house? That extra speed must make the buckets of water in the face quite hurtful.


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## christyleigh

Idiens said:


> However, I don't really like the two steering positions, neither are optimal, whereas I have one and a convertible pilot house.


Well..... since one good nit pick deserves another  I actually see your boat as a Center Cockpit with a large extended Hard Dodger - not a Pilothouse. And I certainly don't mean that in a negative way as I think it is an Excellent Design !!!!!!  
As for the steering positions when NC modified the 33 to the 331 they created an actual bench seating cockpit (small as it is) that I use to steer from 99% of the time sitting on the leeward bench seat looking under the genoa as I have with my previous traditional sailboats. The pennant extended genoa tack attachment and high cut clew with the up sweep of the bow actually gives me a better look forward than I had with my c28 or c320 etc... It's true since I have the 'live aboard' interior with the pilothouse wheel on right I only have a mini chart table and folded chart storage in front of the wheel but the 6' salon table in the pilothouse with a full size chart drawer underneath serves me well. It is also true that sailing from the pilothouse would be only on long tacks with the sails pre-set from outside  Sailing in bad weather was not a driving force in my purchase any way. Living space, a beautiful hand crafted teak interior, and the ability to motor sail at a couple knots faster than I could before were my main issues.


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## sailingdog

I'd imagine that there are probably large pilot house trimarans.. but on the smaller trailerable ones, you won't find a pilothouse.


Idiens said:


> SD - Yes I am tempted by the speed of Tri's, but it's hardly the dark side, Darth Vader drives a power boat (thingy) with paddle wheels.
> 
> Is there a Tri with a pilot house? That extra speed must make the buckets of water in the face quite hurtful.


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## Idiens

christyleigh said:


> Well..... since one good nit pick deserves another


Yes, well picked, those nits. 

If you fitted a Hoyt boom with a blade jib, you would only need to set the sails once for beating to windward. It's a labour saving device I'm considering for just that reason. My 140 genoa is really powerful on a reach, but is hard work tacking and causes me to revert to the iron foresail too early when beating up rivers.


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## Idiens

Thanks for the link. That's another Mk II. I have seen what appears to be a Mk III, which has a bathing platform style stern added taking it to over 40 ft.


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## TrueBlue

I like your pilothouse helm as well Idiens - intelligent layout based upon successful wheelhouse designs from offshore commercial vessels. Although my boat's pilothouse has a centerline wheel, with companionway steps located just starboard of the helm, the relationships are very similar.

It's great having a large chart table directly ajacent to the wheel. Ours, like yours, has a very large and deep chart compartment under the hinged teak table top - holds full size charts without the need for folding. We keep plotting tools, guide books and portable electronics there as well.

Do you have other photos of the pilothouse, showing the wheel and aft portions?


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## Idiens

TB - Much to my surprise I have few photos showing the rear pilot house arrangement. The first I found was this one of some friends we entertained in Granton. I guess it showed that we can party with eight people in the pilothouse.










Do you have some pictures of your layout to share?


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## TSOJOURNER

kwaltersmi said:


> I'm in the midst of my weekly "search" for a cruising vessel. I've been coming acrossed a lot of pilothouse designs. I've never sailed on a pilothouse boat, but I'm intrigued.
> 
> Can anyone help me out with pros and cons for cruising (bluewater, island hopping, etc.) with a pilothouse design?
> 
> Here's what I've got so far:
> 
> Pros: More cabin space, well-lighted cabin space, dry shelter for wet passages, added secuity (?), anything else?
> 
> Cons: More weight (?), less forward visibility, anything else?


My boat is also a Nauticat (Re: True Blue's reply), but the 36' version. We have done all our sailing in this boat so far in New England, specifically the Maine and Nova Scotia coasts. We are planning to go offshore cruising beginning in the fall of 2009. We were concerned about the relative lack of air flow in the pilothouse once we got to the tropics. The pilothouse had only two doors and a "moon roof" that opened. It had 13 windows that did not open. Over the last two Springs we have replaced all the pilothouse windows, converting the two in the doors, the two on the aft end, and the middle one of the forward three with openable custom replacements. This gives us a really good cross ventilation if there is any breeze at all. Of course, we have only had to endure New England summer heat - but the change has been great.
We had another concern about the pilothouse, though. That being concern that the windows might not hold if we caught heavy breaking seas. Though the boat is designed for the North Sea/ Baltic Sea area of Europe, the windows were only held in by gaskets. They were ridiculously easy to remove. We have replaced all the windows in the boat with custom windows held in place with aluminum frames on both sides that bolt togather. I hope we are never in seas that could knock them loose!! 
We love our pilothouse and wouldn't give it up for anything. It remains to be seen how well our changes will work in the hotter climes. We can't wait to find out!!


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## Idiens

SeaStarr - in the event of being caught in breaking seas, can you close off the fore and rear cabins?


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## christyleigh

SeaStarr said:


> My boat is also a Nauticat (Re: True Blue's reply), but the 36' version.
> We had another concern about the pilothouse, though. That being concern that the windows might not hold if we caught heavy breaking seas. Though the boat is designed for the North Sea/ Baltic Sea area of Europe, the windows were only held in by gaskets. They were ridiculously easy to remove. We have replaced all the windows in the boat with custom windows held in place with aluminum frames on both sides that bolt togather.


 That's one of the many things NC updated (the 33) with the 331 series in '99. My windows are constructed like your 'custom' version. Although I never plan on going 'offshore to blue water' I do want to make the sliding doors more watertight and secure one of these years.....


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## tdw

jrd22 said:


> Plumper-always glad to welcome a new member and pilothouse owner. That's a nice looking boat you have. Hope to see you out there sometime.
> 
> So many boats, so little time,
> John


I went and had a search for the Brewer 40 Pilot House but came up with nothing. Do you have nay images you can post ?

Somewhat off topic but in that searching I have to say that the Brewers I did see are very nice indeed. The 42 CC is a beauty.

Nonetheless I like to see what the B40 PH looks like.


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## Valiente

Brewer designs are generally excellent (depending on the builder, of course), but pretty well anything he or his partner Bill Wahlstrom put out are superb voyaging boats.

It's not the pilothouse, but my friend has a Goderich 40 CC in steel, which came off the Brewer design boards in the late '70s, and a sister ship of which was the first recreational yacht to cruise Hudson's Bay in the '80s. Here's a picture with his boat stripped of mainmast and dorades for winter storage:


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## Idiens

Wombat - not much of a lead I know but

http://www.apolloduck.nl/display.phtml?aid=40841


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## Valiente

Idiens said:


> Wombat - not much of a lead I know but
> 
> http://www.apolloduck.nl/display.phtml?aid=40841


That's not a great price, but it's not bad, either. Odds are even that if the boat is currently cruising, it has been maintained and has a lot of newer toys.

That's a long flight for a wombat, though. They have short arms unsuited for distance!


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## tdw

Valiente said:


> That's not a great price, but it's not bad, either. Odds are even that if the boat is currently cruising, it has been maintained and has a lot of newer toys.
> 
> That's a long flight for a wombat, though. They have short arms unsuited for distance!


and I betcha they ain't gunna pay for my airline ticket. 

wombat flying is more successful when someone else is doing the flapping.


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## sailingdog

I thought Wombats were self-propelled using methane.


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## tdw

sailingdog said:


> I thought Wombats were self-propelled using methane.


Only good for short distances.


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## sailingdog

ahhh... thanks for clearing that up...


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## Faster

tdw said:


> I went and had a search for the Brewer 40 Pilot House but came up with nothing. Do you have nay images you can post ?
> 
> I like to see what the B40 PH looks like.


tdw

Here is the link to the thread that contains pics of jrd's new Brewer 40PH
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38099


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## jrd22

tdw-Glad to oblige, although the pics are not very good and the boat is in various stages of being taken apart in preparation for shipping.













































This one varies from the plans above in that the nav station is to starboard as you step down from the pilothouse. Most were built with it up in the pilothouse forward of the galley. We have a LOT more counter and locker space in the galley this way. 
Regards, John


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## jrd22

Ha! I guess I need to be faster in order to beat Faster. Thanks Faster, I didn't remember that I had put pics up of the new boat. 

In reading the spec sheet it says cast iron ballast when in fact it is lead(according to original paperwork and Ted Brewer). I don't know if all came with teak decks or not, probably. Ours teak is coming off and non-skid going on. Volvo MD 31A with a Walter V-drive. Hydraulic steering in house and cable at the cockpit and emergency tiller. Monitor vane, inverter, Pur 50 watermaker, 24 mi Furuno radar, newer Garmin chartplotter, SSB, weatherfax, newer Technautics refer/freezer. Lot's of spare parts. We paid less than half of what they are asking for the Brewer on Yachtworld, but we don't have an entertainment center)(and it has a lot of newer eq than ours).
John


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## TSOJOURNER

What else needs to be said 
Scott


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## Valiente

Well, that's something I haven't seen before. Mine's called a motorsailer, too, but I think it's more sailer than motor.


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## Moosemiester

If you like the pilothouse in True Blue's posting you really ought to look at a trawler -- think of it as a sailboat without a mast 

Powerboaters won't consider you one of them, because you'll be going 7,8 knots and using 2 gallons an hour, instead of 30... Sailboaters will envy you with your freezer (ice cream!) and air conditioning...

20 years of sailing, I went the trawler route and never looked back.


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## christyleigh

Moosemiester said:


> If you like the pilothouse in True Blue's posting you really ought to look at a trawler -- think of it as a sailboat without a mast
> Powerboaters won't consider you one of them, because you'll be going 7,8 knots and using 2 gallons an hour, instead of 30... Sailboaters will envy you with your freezer (ice cream!) and air conditioning...
> 20 years of sailing, I went the trawler route and never looked back.


Well there Mister Moose..... since you are posting to SAILnet it seems you are looking back a bit  
So..... I get the 7-8 kts at around 2 gph, already have the AC, if I want a separate freezer I'll just install one, and I can sail if I want. So why is it that I would want to limit myself to a trawler


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## sailingdog

Well said Stan...  Why would you want a trawler... UGH... besides, there is a certain beauty to ghosting along in 10 knots of wind, and hearing nothing besides the wind, the water and the sea birds...


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## TSOJOURNER

Scott - Interesting boat. And personally I like interesting boats. They're, well, more interesting than not... Went to your web site and it sounds like Schucker owners as a lot are quite happy with their boats.

Moose - Glad you're happy with the choice you made. Trawlers aren't half-bad. Though if I ever go to the dark side, personally I prefer the troller yacht... You're out on the water enjoying the time - good for you. Of course most of us here prefer sailing, but at least you're not burning 40 gallons an hour on some hideous, cookie-cutter, semi-planing motoryacht...


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## TSOJOURNER

Thanks Moonfish. You're correct in that Schucker owners really love their boats. I just need to find someone who'd really love to own mine.
And for those who'd rather have a trawler:


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## TSOJOURNER

*Differences*

I have read and been told that typically the more comfortable / roomy the boat is the less of a sailing vessel she is. I have a 46' Island Trader Ketch with a ~16' beam and a full keel. Great live aboad, can go bluewater, but rather slowly.


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## TSOJOURNER

Oh oh, watch out Jeff450... Your first post might solicit some curmudgeonly responses! Your comfortable/roomy assertion is so generally unsubstantiated that it's going to get shot full of holes. Just a heads up, so don't take anything personally (now watch, no one will say anything!).

Other than that, welcome! The IT46 is indeed a roomy vessel and I should think would make a fabulous liveaboard. Love the aft cabin on those. I saw one cruising in the BVI, but other than that I've only seen and heard of them as coastal cruisers. Doesn't mean you can't go farther, though. As long as you enjoy her, that's all that matters.

As far as a pilothouse model, how is the visibility from the inside helm? And what can you get for speed under power? I always figured I'd rather have an IT46 than a trawler. At least you can do some sailing in one...


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## Plumper

My racks on the Truant are quite similar to the Pacific Seacraft. A large double forward to port with all the amenities (hanging lockers, shelves standing area to dress and a proper door) with two more berths aft. It is a wonderfuly comfortable boat for two. 
It also sails properly. Although it has a fully equiped pilothouse, it has no more windage than the Lancer 36 berthed next to me and looks better than any trunk cabin with the complete dodger and closed in canvass over the cockpit. With the split underwater shape (fin keel, skeg hung rudder) it handles well. I have lots of sail for light airs and rarely use the engine. My 52 foot mast (on a 33 foot boat) easily carries enough canvas, even with just a 100% jib, to keep me going. When it blows up, lots of reefs and an inner forestay with a small jib keep us beating to windward comfortably. Bill garden designed a great PNW cruiser when he drew the Truant 33.

Gary


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## bwindrope

Have to chime in here about pilothouses in general and our Gulf 32 in particular. This has been a great thread to come across, and I echo all sentiments toward creating a pilothouse specific part of this forum. They are all fairly unique from their dark depressing brethren, and most share similar design objectives. 

Anyway, love our Gulf 32 for all the reasons others like Rick have mentioned. Ours is a beauty that had been commissioned in 88 as a true cruiser with lots of beefy good equipment, and then experienced benign neglect on the Columbia river until we got her 18 months ago. Sails raised like 10 times in the 19 years before we got her. 500 hours on the diesel. Like I said, benign neglect. 

I am 18 months into a complete overhaul and recommissioning! It's been a tremendous amount of almost always fun work. List of projects I've completed goes on and on. 

We're outfitting her for extensive coastal cruising and eventual/hopeful trips down the West Coast from our home base in Washington to Baja and such. In the meantime, we sail her extensively in this paradise and up to British Columbia. On her almost every weekend for 10 months of the year, and then still a bit in mid-winter. 

As I've written elsewhere, we love most everything about her. Her looks, her comfort, her visibility, her stiffness, her speed under sail, and so on. Always proud, rarely jealous. I would love a chance to shake Bill Garden's hand!

Tried to upload pictures. Can't. Any tricks?


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## Faster

bwindrope said:


> ....
> Tried to upload pictures. Can't. Any tricks?


You need 10 posts before you can post links or pics. Once there, using a host site like photobucket.com works best, Sailnet's own image posting/attaching is very limited.

Go to the song chain of some such thread, an easy way to get your post count up.

Welcome to Sailnet! We have friends with a G32, they love it as well.


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## sailingdog

Read this thread's OP. 


bwindrope said:


> Have to chime in here about pilothouses in general and our Gulf 32 in particular. This has been a great thread to come across, and I echo all sentiments toward creating a pilothouse specific part of this forum. They are all fairly unique from their dark depressing brethren, and most share similar design objectives.
> 
> Anyway, love our Gulf 32 for all the reasons others like Rick have mentioned. Ours is a beauty that had been commissioned in 88 as a true cruiser with lots of beefy good equipment, and then experienced benign neglect on the Columbia river until we got her 18 months ago. Sails raised like 10 times in the 19 years before we got her. 500 hours on the diesel. Like I said, benign neglect.
> 
> I am 18 months into a complete overhaul and recommissioning! It's been a tremendous amount of almost always fun work. List of projects I've completed goes on and on.
> 
> We're outfitting her for extensive coastal cruising and eventual/hopeful trips down the West Coast from our home base in Washington to Baja and such. In the meantime, we sail her extensively in this paradise and up to British Columbia. On her almost every weekend for 10 months of the year, and then still a bit in mid-winter.
> 
> As I've written elsewhere, we love most everything about her. Her looks, her comfort, her visibility, her stiffness, her speed under sail, and so on. Always proud, rarely jealous. I would love a chance to shake Bill Garden's hand!
> 
> Tried to upload pictures. Can't. Any tricks?


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## TSOJOURNER

We have a Roberts Spray 36' steel pilothouse ketch, visibility is good keep better watches in bad weather as you don't have to get out in the rain and bad weather. Dual steering stations, I redesigned it so the salon is in the pilothouse and at sea it has an athwartships berth in the pilothouse. Dinette breaks down to a bed like most boats. But you can keep watch in all sorts of weather. Windows are no big deal Steel hull would probably collapse before the windows gave way. Excellent ventilation when at sea or at port. Usually sleep in the pilothouse when in port and use alternate dinette below decks for eating. We have a/c but very seldom ever use it because the air flow is excellent.


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## TSOJOURNER

RickBowman:
I was the builder of my boat. Too awhile woriing on weekends. about 6 1/2 years.
Could have done it faster, but what the heck, completed in 1988. Been around once, getting ready to go again in the beginning if 2012.
I have a dinette in the PH that also serves as an at sea pilot berth or fold down into queen size in port berth. Have standard 2 settee berths in main salon, even though I call the PH the main. Normal V-berth forward, used mostly for storing gear. I did a lot of mockups using cardboard until I got it the way I wanted.
Another thing I like about being steel, is when I lock up at night, it would take a cutting torch to get in my boat. My PH windows are 1" thick armor plate glass, synthetic, the same as they use to mae aircraft canopies. Will withstand 30-06 rifle round fired at it. Will glaze but won't penetrate. Over done I admit, but the windows are the least of my worries
You could sleep six, in three cabins, but who would want that many on a boat anyway.


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## TSOJOURNER

*pics*

I'm away from home right now and will have to wait until I get home, Sorry. You can go to this site and see one similar, mines ketch rigged and a little different layout in the PH.
Won't let me post a link. don't have enough posts yet. Just go to bruceroberts.com and look for the Spray 36c.
Also the design is you step down from the cockpit into the PH and then step down into the cabin. Kind of like a tri-level home. Thats why the PH profile is so low. Also engine access is under the PH and the deck lifts up to gain access to the engine. You have standing room ub the engine compartment. No big deal to install or remove engine if needed. Total access on all sides of engine.


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## Valiente

Sounds like my boat a fair bit.


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## TSOJOURNER

I thought of going with the aftcabin design on my boat, but figured I'd make my main stateroom in the PH instead.


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## TSOJOURNER

*Island Trader 46' visibility from the inside pilothouse helm*



Moonfish said:


> As far as a pilothouse model, how is the visibility from the inside helm? And what can you get for speed under power? I always figured I'd rather have an IT46 than a trawler. At least you can do some sailing in one...


Visability is good for sailing in non-congested waters, but I wouldn't dock from inside. I have held her at 7.5 knots in mild conditions.


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## TSOJOURNER

Brian W (aka Bwindrope) - Cool, I like your boat, too. Wanted a G32 for years. Ended up "settling" for a custom Wm. Garden-designed Gulf 40 and lived/sailed for 3 years on the Columbia River. Moved up here 4 years ago - boatless - and now have a different pilothouse. Love it! Anyway, are you moored at the Port or elsewhere? My boat is on Mitchell Bay close to Snug Harbor. I'll take you sailing if you take me...


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## bwindrope

Hey Moonfish, noticed you were in my neck of the woods. I'm at the Port, H dock. Aeolus is currently awaiting her backstay, the final piece of her standing rigging in my full replacement, and so is stuck at her mooring. I'm also soon to receive my final two windows in replacing all the old acrylic. 

In any case, always happy to go for a sail. Next time around the Port, drop a note on Aeolus and we can connect on the phone. 

Just read a 48North article about a Nauticat 35 getting smashed by waves off the dreaded north coast of CA. Reminder to all to put storm windows over any window bigger than your head. Other than getting rolled, their main problem seemed to be getting a boat full of water through their entirely smashed pilothouse windows. Lucky they made it.


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## Plumper

That story really makes one think about the weak link of pilothouse boats. I have always worried about my windows despite the fact that they are armored safety glass and well mounted. Maybe it is time to get going on those storm covers.

Gaz


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## christyleigh

I'm not discounting the vulnerability of the pilothouse windows or the need for 'storm windows' for offshore but I'm in the process of trying to gather more info on that particular boat. The NC 35 was replaced by the NC 351 which I'm hoping involved the same upgrade from rubber gasketed windows to the tempered glass held in place by through bolted aluminum frames that the upgrade from the NC 33 to the NC 331 did. Through the Nauticat email lists I got the name of the person involved and I have a pending email to him. Just kind of thinking out loud electronically on this incident and of course trying to defend Nauticats


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## Valiente

I have through bolted 1/2 inch Lexan on the sides of my PH, but the forward windows are safety glass in rubber gaskets, with the center window opening up on fairly weak struts.

I think I will drill holes and mount bolts with locking mechanisms so I can put overlapping 1/2" Lexan storm shutters in. It will be a pain to carry them, but taking a wave in through the front would ruin my day (and most of my electronics...). How I will do this and still have wipers is anyone's guess at this point.

I have a 1/4" smoked Plexi and wood drop board in the hatchway and I want to install aluminum "Dutch doors" for watertightness and security (dogging them from the inside like the decent Atkins-Hoyle sliding hatch can be).

I think I'll have to fabricate these myself, however.


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## sailingdog

Valiente-

Your drop boards sound like a weak point.  I have 3/8" lexan drop boards on my boat.


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## Valiente

They are, hence my desire for doggable doors like on cop patrol boats. It's just one giant board, as well, so it's a pain to handle. Lets in tons of light, though.


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## christyleigh

Well..... I was wrong in my assumption/hope(for a little piece of mind) that the NC 35 that lost its windows off the California coast was of the older 'rubber gasket only' type. After corresponding with the crew member inolved I was corrected. He, as a Nauticat dealer and deliverer, tells me that the "Pilothouse" line always had the through bolted aluminum frames that were added to my 331 as an upgrade to the 33 as member of the "Traditional Motor Sailor" line. On the bright side Kaj Gustofson, the owner of the Nauticat Company, had told him that he only knew of one window failure and that was caused by a poorly mounted stereo in the pilothouse.
Again, as in my earlier post, I'm not discounting the vulnerability of Pilothouse windows and the probable need for 'storm windows' for offshore work I just wanted to gather some info for the list and myself.


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## Valiente

So what is the composition and thickness of the framed windows in question? I'm asking because if 1/2" Lexan with 30-odd throughbolts mounted on framed steel isn't sufficient, I don't know what is. I am under the impression that this stuff can stop small-calibre gunfire.

I would like to hear more, please.


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## christyleigh

Valiente - I don't know the thickness and 'tempered glass' is the best description I can come up with for mine. I can check the little verbage etched into the corners if that would help but you have Lexan and I have glass so it's apples and oranges any way.


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## sailingdog

Laminated, tempered glass would probably be best for the pilothouse ports. Regular laminated glass, like that of an automobile windshield is less than ideal, since if hit hard enough, it will result in razor edged shards. Tempered glass by itself is also less than ideal, since if hard enough it will shatter into a lot of tiny, relatively safe to handle fragments.


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## steelboat

Valiente, I too have a steel pilot house with 1/2" lexan and a lot of 1/4-20 bolts per window, on recessed steel frames and with 316 stainless covering rings. I'm sure they're strong enough. Years ago I was the pilot for a 90' swordfish boat who had her forward pilot house windows (glass) blown out on the Grand Banks on a particularly dark and nasty night, and when she limped home we welded 3/8 bolts as studs around the outside of the glass windows and mounted 3/8 lexan storm shutters on the studs. That boat saw an awful lot of weather and never had another problem with her windows. Bob


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## TSOJOURNER

Is this cool or what?








Now our boat is worth at least $.50 more. And you can own this beauty that adorned the cover of Carolina Currents. 
Scot


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## Plumper

Very cool. Your boat is a star. What are those boxy things on either side of the pilothouse roof?

Gaz


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## TSOJOURNER

They're smokestacks







. Only kidding. They're officially called dunnage boxes. At least that's what the original spec sheet said. They're just aluminum storage boxes bolted to the deck. Makes it look kinda salty. And they hold a lot of stuff. The starboard box has two 20 lb propane tanks and takes up about a third of the box. The propane line is routed to this box. The propane solenoid is also in there which keeps it out of the boat. There's a small vent at the rear of the box. The nav lights are bolted to these boxes on teak nameboards. So you don't have to look through the light when underway at night.
Scott


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## Plumper

Very nice!


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## camaraderie

Very Kewl Shuck! Where was that taken ...EC?


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## TSOJOURNER

Yes, at the free town docks.
Scott


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## camaraderie

Thought so...we have some of them free docks here in Manteo too! EC is a nice town!


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## SailSolomons

*Pilot-House Boats*

I love them!!
I did an East-Coast delivery last February. After freeing the frozen docklines and getting underway, it was back into the pilot house for hot coffee and breakfast. Navigation was easy and safe, being able to lay out charts in the pilot house area. It was very sociable too, the crew would come up and talk because it was warm. Accomodations were great too for a 38ft boat. Motoring and manouevrability was also very comfortable with a 90 hp engine.
*BUT, THE SURPRISE WAS THE NAUTICAT 38 SAILED WELL TOO.* We had 6kts in 11 kts of true wind. Then when it was 35 kts of wind she was very seakindly too.
Only downside I can see is in the tropics. The owner of this nauticat lives in the Caymans and he agrees it is hot despite having a sun-roof.


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## Valiente

steelboat said:


> Valiente, I too have a steel pilot house with 1/2" lexan and a lot of 1/4-20 bolts per window, on recessed steel frames and with 316 stainless covering rings. I'm sure they're strong enough. Years ago I was the pilot for a 90' swordfish boat who had her forward pilot house windows (glass) blown out on the Grand Banks on a particularly dark and nasty night, and when she limped home we welded 3/8 bolts as studs around the outside of the glass windows and mounted 3/8 lexan storm shutters on the studs. That boat saw an awful lot of weather and never had another problem with her windows. Bob


That is precisely what we will be doing. I figure the side windows at 1/2" fixed Lexan are fine, but we want 3/8" bolt-on sheets in front, overlapping the frames about one inch all around, and a framed-up aluminum "dutch-door" companionway shutters aft. A dropboard isn't going to cut it...we need something you can dog down from the inside hinged to the steel framed and fully gasketed. Realistically, except in the worst following seas, we can have the lower half shut and the upper half open, allowing air, light and instructions to be heard from the sailing deck.


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## steelboat

*dutch doors*

Valiente, this place has what you're talking about: aluminum water tight dutch companionway doors. www.siamondseaglaze.com
Hope this helps. Bob www.sv-restless.com


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## steelboat

*dutch doors*

oops. that should be www.diamondseaglaze.com . go to products, doors, medium duty, dutch. They custom make them; I don't know price. Bob


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## Valiente

Thanks, Bob...that is the general idea, but cut that height in half. Basically, I have a 36" high smoked plexi dropboard in a wooden grooved "frame" throughbolted to the steel pilothouse itself. Above that is an excellent Atkins & Hoyle sliding hatch that is fully "doggable" and is in heavy-duty sliding grooves.

The sliding hatch is padlocked over the dropboard top flange. You either would have to boot in the dropboard or snap off the padlock to gain entry.

The "sill" is about two inches. My aft deck is pretty high...I can't say I've ever have even a splash from a following sea there...but that's in Lake Ontario, where getting pooped is usually a function of not seeing the squall line crawling up your stern.










What I want to get is basically two gasketed aluminum panels, both doggable from the inside and lockable from the outside. The lower panel can be solid, and the upper panel can have either a fixed or an opening ventilation port, maybe 5 x 12 or so, with heavy glass. The idea is that the lower half, when dogged, makes for a "bridge deck" of 20 inches, while the upper part can be latched open, with the dogged hatch keeping all but horizontal rain out. This will allow ventilation and communication in moderately heavy weather, but also will allow a quick way to seal the pilothouse far better than present. Even fully shut, in a capsize, we would take on water. A well made gasketed and horizontally split door would lessen water ingress significantly, and would make the boat a more daunting target for burglars in port.

In the picture above, you can see the saloon companionway. I also want the ability to close that with gasketed aluminum panels, as well as a similar "downstairs" to the aft cabin. The pilothouse has internal scuppers, believe it or not, so that if I gasket the engine room hatch, and shut those doors, I could take about a foot of sea water in the pilothouse itself before the electrics suffered...

Thank you for the link. You've given me something to think about.


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## siberian

Got to love that 'true blue' nauticat pilothouse. No where to go, nothing to do?..You can always just sit around and admire the interior. A real 'pilothouse' fan.


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## sailingdog

Siberian-

Valiente's boat is a steel beastie, not a Nauticat, although it does share some similarity in lines with the Nauticat.


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## christyleigh

siberian said:


> Got to love that 'true blue' nauticat pilothouse. No where to go, nothing to do?..You can always just sit around and admire the interior. A real pilothouse fan.


Yup...... I do it for hours on end .........


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## TrueBlue

Thanks siberian, 
With my wanderlust and our beautiful sailing grounds, there were very few times when there was "nowhere to go, nothing to do". But, I did admire the pilothouse interior during the past 4 years or ownership - whenever weather conditions made it unpleasant to be outside.


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## Valiente

I like leaning on the "daybed" in the pilothouse and listening to the rain while reading. I like the play of light better there than down in the arguably more comfortable saloon. I guess it's the same as liking a treehouse as a kid!


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## atrometer

*PH Motor Sailors*

You should look at a Schucker 40 if you want a great one.


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## Maina

*Tashiba 31 Pilot House*



jzeke16 said:


> I wasn't able to view the web page that you posted. But since these boats are extremely rare, I think I bought that particular boat. If anyone would like to know more about it, post a note.


I have read your post about buying a Tashiba 31 Pilothouse and have a couple of questions, if you are willing to answer them. Currently I have a Southern Cross 28 which I have restored extensively and which I like. I have it set up for single handing with all lines led aft, a stack pack main and roller furling on genoa and club footed jib.

But now that I have a grandson and want to eventually cruise the Gulf of Maine with him I am looking for something just a bit bigger, especially with broader decks and better accommodations below. I want to stay with a cutter and a boat I can easily single hand. I am 65 and not getting younger. The Tashiba 31 caught my eye, especially the pilothouse version, which I gather is rare. I have a friend who has a larger Tashiba, a 40 I think, that he likes.

Any comments you have or information on these boats would be much appreciated. Do you have any pictures of your boat that you would be willing to share?


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