# Does the concept of "third rail" mean anything to you?



## XTR (Feb 28, 2007)

I think that the nasty pirate types may have unintentionally discovered its meaning. 

Raiding the occasional tramp steamer and luxury yacht will get you press and an occasional flyover and some impotent support for the local coast guard, this action will get you gray ships loaded with serious (i.e. lethal) equipment and the capability to effectively utilize it.


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## merlin2375 (Jul 12, 2007)

I think your link is broken:

Somali pirates hijack Saudi oil tanker with Britons on board - Times Online


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## merlin2375 (Jul 12, 2007)

More info:

Pirates hijack Saudi 'super tanker' - CNN.com


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

Dumb and Dumberer

:gunner


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## CGMojo (Jul 6, 2007)

*.50*

The economic and environmental impact of a super tanker falling into the wrong hands is enormous. We may soon see onboard security teams with .50 Barrett rifles fore and aft.

YouTube - Barrett M107 .50 Caliber sniper rifle


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## XTR (Feb 28, 2007)

Yea, my linky is broken but that is the story.


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## XTR (Feb 28, 2007)

CGMojo said:


> The economic and environmental impact of a super tanker falling into the wrong hands is enormous. We may soon see onboard security teams with .50 Barrett rifles fore and aft.
> 
> YouTube - Barrett M107 .50 Caliber sniper rifle


No I'm thinking more like USNavy Destroyer patrols/escorts. Radar aimed, rapid fire 5" guns make a really unhealthy environment for small pirate boats.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

I wonder how those pirates get on board a supertanker. Do they leave the pilot boarding ladder down?


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## XTR (Feb 28, 2007)

Threaten an unarmed tanker with an RPG or two and the pilot ladder comes down.

It seems that China, Russia/USSR, Korea et al. dumped about a gazillion of the things into the region.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Some ships defend themselves with water canon (fire hoses). A rib fills up pretty quick.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Idiens said:


> Some ships defend themselves with water canon (fire hoses). A rib fills up pretty quick.


not to be a smart a-- but would you man a fire hose against live fire?


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

The Somali pirates have been paid somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 million US this year in ransoms. They are well equipped, and well armed, this isn't going to go away anytime soon unfortunately.

John


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Well, there's enough bravado here about carrying firearms and defending against pirates. Defending must look a lot easier when the pirate is faced with climbing up several stories of steel wall. 

Additionally, the pilot usually asks the ship to slow down for safe boarding. If the ship holds 20 knots, that's one bumpy ride down there in the pirates rib, so it will be difficult for them to aim straight.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

jrd22 said:


> The Somali pirates have been paid somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 million US this year in ransoms. They are well equipped, and well armed, this isn't going to go away anytime soon unfortunately.
> 
> John


So the pirates caught by the British are a poor example? They were in a stolen dhow. For 30 million they could have afforded something better, - only this operation is being run by the guys with gold on their shoes.

Anyone know an official web site with pirate attack statistics?


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

It is becoming pretty clear that these pirates are not county bumpkins as it takes a heck of a lot of logistics to board a ship 400 + miles off the coast 

I have to think when your sitting on a 2m barrel fireball self defense becomes a problem when there allowed to get within firing range much like the perimeter and aircraft carrier matinees at all costs there going to have to make big changes in how there defended


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Found this, but I think it was posted before:-

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/fullMaps_Af.nsf/luFullMap/6F7A9682B19148DCC12574D7004439A6/$File/unosat_SEC_som081002.pdf?OpenElement

27 this year plus lost of other events....


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## XTR (Feb 28, 2007)

My point here is that they have now touched the US oil supply. That tanker was bound for the US. In doing that they just changed categories from "nuisance" to "threat to US security" and that gets you a whole different level of attention. A dozen predator drones and a couple of destroyers out there makes piracy a lot higher risk operation. Nobody fishes with 6 or 8 guys in the boat. The birds will have an easy time picking out targets, and there is no surrounding village to wail and scream. They just vanish at sea.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

An AC130 gunship would do nicely too.


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## travler37 (Mar 30, 2007)

This was taken 450 miles out at sea.
Last i heard it was being taken to there port...Someone help with the name here.Where all the said pirates..operate out of.No government to go after.Conveinent me thinks.

Now to the solution.Light it up with 130mm white pozzies.
Wait till it is offshore,hook down and burn it.Even better if the bring it into harbor.Tide just about to turn so they get 2million barrels of burning oil in there harbor.Keep hitting it with WP as the oil leaks out.Minimal harm to marine life versus letting the stuff go to the sea bed.And pretty much burns out there base to.....Nope,Grandpa never taught me to play nice nice.

My final thoughts on them 
Mark


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

and the 25 crewmembers of the tanker?


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

A .50 cal machine gun is a much more effective weapon on a pitching deck. A sniper rifle does get you the range, but in this case, the accuracy would be hard to come by on a boat, even a tanker. I shoot matches that range from 600-1000 yards with a .30 cal precision rifle. Hitting your target is a lot harder than point n' shoot. Better to spray n' pray in this case.


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

there is a reason they give the coast guard shotguns and not rifles


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Tankers travel at 15-17 knots on average with some being slower, none faster. Loaded tankers have a low freeboard making boarding relatively easy whether welcome or unwelcome. Vessels used for piracy, or smuggling for that matter, are generally small and very fast. Both of which makes them not only difficult to find but difficult to engage successfully. It's a big ocean. Solution? Convoys or armed naval detachments on board the merchant ships. Where is the UN?


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> there is a reason they give the coast guard shotguns and not rifles
> Reply With Quote


yeah, right.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

sailaway21 said:


> Tankers travel at 15-17 knots on average with some being slower, none faster.


Even at 15 knots, they keep that up in a seaway for a long time. A small fast boat at 15 knots in the same seaway is an uncomfortable place and they can't chase for long. So maybe it was flat calm, but more likely, the tanker was tricked into slowing down.



sailaway21 said:


> Loaded tankers have a low freeboard making boarding relatively easy whether welcome or unwelcome.


How many feet is that for this tanker? It's still a wall of steel. So you throw up a grappling iron and climb a rope. Neat trick and brave pirate. More likely, they got the pilot's ladder lowered.



sailaway21 said:


> Vessels used for piracy, or smuggling for that matter, are generally small and very fast.


And have very little range, so there's a mother ship out there.



sailaway21 said:


> Both of which makes them not only difficult to find but difficult to engage successfully. It's a big ocean. Solution? Convoys or armed naval detachments on board the merchant ships.


I hear the US navy is recommending that the shippers hire security guards.



sailaway21 said:


> Where is the UN?


In this case its maritime organisation, the IMO, they are coordinating Naval contributions. See:-

International Maritime Organization


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## merlin2375 (Jul 12, 2007)

more news:

BBC NEWS | Africa | Seized tanker anchors off Somalia


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

sck5 said:


> there is a reason they give the coast guard shotguns and not rifles


Combat shot guns are highly inaccurate and have a very short range in comparison to a rifle round. You'd have to pay me pretty well to gaurd an entire ship. Something like a small team 24/7, outfit with small arms, gear, comms, can get pricey, but so is losing an entire shipment of oil.


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## yellowwducky (Nov 6, 2008)

I actually was at a bond offering roadshow for an oil shipping company. I asked the company president about piracy risks for his large oil carrying ships. He said 'they are too fast and big' and that pirates couldn't realistically get aboard given the height off the water level. Clearly they can!

Now, would a pirate actually be insane enough to shoot an rpg at a fully loaded supertanker? I would like to think no. The ****storm of global attention that would bring to the issue would definitely put them out of business. So with that in mind, just give guys on deck shot guns and tell them don't slow down for anybody. Shotguns would be very effective against anyone crazy enough to buy climbing up a rope on the side of one of these ships. You don't need to kill them, just fill em with some buckshot. They would give up this idea pretty quick.

I do like the idea of the predator drones as well. High rez cameras and seeing 8 dudes on a 'fishing' boat with no nets and guns = sink and forget.


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## travler37 (Mar 30, 2007)

jrd22 said:


> and the 25 crewmembers of the tanker?


 Hope they get off of it.
Colateral damage,Same as in any war.If you want to risk your men you can try to pick them up out of the water.Eather way your going to be the badguy.But the problem would be solved.Or we can talk and pay.Talk and pay.

Seriously think these Pirates picked the wrong ship this time.Dont mess with the Roality.Your family will probably disapear.

Mark


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

yellowwducky said:


> don't slow down for anybody.


This works out great, until someone calls Mayday on channel 16.


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## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

*Task Force 150*

Ok, just to set the record straight.
We (a number of countries) DO try to stop the pirates in the Gulf of Aden.
Combined Task Force 150

Forget about defending the ships with shotguns or rifles, the pirates have nothing to loose and are ready to risk a lot - What we need are more ships in the task force!


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## Calabego (Nov 4, 2008)

Has anyone ever been to the Seychelles? If I recall, the US operates from there. It could be argued that extending the range of patrols from that location including drones could be an immediate and effective deterrent without a significant increase in budget. Much better than retasking the 5th fleet to that area, IMO.


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## merlin2375 (Jul 12, 2007)

The Associated Press: Indian navy sinks suspected pirate "mother" ship


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## yellowwducky (Nov 6, 2008)

zz4gta said:


> This works out great, until someone calls Mayday on channel 16.


If you have a couple little ships with guys with guns on them and coinciddentally are getting a mayday call, I am partial to thinking my current pressing problem supercedes my obligation to try and come to your aid while I am being shot at. Now I can see that it could be used to be a nice ruse to lure in ships but thats different from the scenario I was thinking about when I said 'don't slow down for anybody' - I meant when they are chasing you!


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Calabego said:


> Has anyone ever been to the Seychelles? If I recall, the US operates from there. It could be argued that extending the range of patrols from that location including drones could be an immediate and effective deterrent without a significant increase in budget. Much better than retasking the 5th fleet to that area, IMO.


The US Navy operates out of Diego Garcia, some 400 miles (a guess) SE of the Seychelles. And the French Navy operates out of the Comores, not that far from where the super tanker was taken.

If there was anything more than lip service paid to this problem, both these forces could mobilise the odd F16 and take the pirates out AFTER they leave the ships. It'll only take a few hits like that to make them really scared. Nothing produces skid marks as easily as a military jet coming out of nowhere and firing a few rockets.

In my view, the best thing someone could do is nuke Somalia. That'll stop them farting in church!!!


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

I'm thinking good sub pratice.


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## Calabego (Nov 4, 2008)

timebandit said:


> I'm thinking good sub pratice.


Still an issue of naval vessel tasking, read: budget and to a lesser extent; political termperature at the Pentagon. Remember, we're back into Dem. controlled executive and legislative branches. The last time this happened, Both bases I served out of turned into commercial real estate. Military spending was the first on the chopping block.

For better or worse, the predominant philosophy is "we aren't the worlds police".

It just occured to me, the cliche "It'll take an act of congress..." won't even work here, not until the legislative isn't a political (I didn't say functional) extension of the executive, or vice versa.

Off rant. Time to switch to decaf.... ;-)


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## hertfordnc (Sep 10, 2007)

Actually, reading the polical tea leaves I'd say this might be a very bad time to be a pirate. Republicans have nothing to prove when it comes to agressive response. Barak Obama is a very smart man, if this is his first "test" he may feel that the smart thing to do is raise the body count quickly and mercilessly. He certainly can't let himself be emabarrased by theses thugs. If there is a violent solution then It's really a perfect opporunity for him. THere won't be a lot of sympathy for the pirates and we don't have to kill all that many of them to stop the problem.


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