# Can a Catalina 30 go out of the bay / gate?



## legarots (Jun 9, 2009)

I'm interested in buying a boat in the San Francisco bay area. My usage would be mostly sailing in the bay, and occasionally sailing out for a weekend or overnight in Drake's bay, or Half moon bay.

I'm looking in the range of a 1988 Catalina 30 MkII. I know the MkIII has a CE A rating, but it looks like the MkII hasn't been rated, at least I can't find any information about that.

Is a passage to Drake's bay or Half moon bay considered offshore? I know the water out there can get pretty rough, especially when navigating around the potatopatch. I wonder what would happen if she experienced a breaking wave while trying to get back into the bay. The Cat30 has a large companionway, but if the boards were in it would prevent flooding.

Also curious to know if a Beneteau First 310 would be better suited? It would probably be $15k more. The Beneteau's open transom would drain any water that got in the cockpit a lot faster than the Catalina. (Of course, for 15k more I could also get the Catalina MkIII which also has an open transom). The Beneteau cuts through waves better than the Catalina, but it has a lot lighter displacement...


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I am sure you could make that journey in a C30. However you would have to pick and choose your weather and tides to make it comfortably. I have no personal experience outside the gate but from what i hear it can be rough. 

I have been out in a C30 in small craft advisories and it handled it okay but I had to work hard. A boat like the C30 is not what I would want to be in if it got ugly outside the gate, with the tides, weird swells, and who knows what else. I think besides the breaking waves you might want to consider the boats sturdiness and comfort in these conditions. I read about a C36 starting to fall apart on the way to Hawaii on Sailnet.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

The boat can. If you're asking the question, you're probably not ready yet. No offense, but most all boats are tougher than those sailing them. It's usually poor choices made by sailors that finds those same boats a quick end on the rocks or beach. Sometimes the boat survives just fine, but the people don't. It's all about having enough experience (both sailing and local weather/conditions) and self-knowledge to make the right decisions. I've been outside the Gate in very mellow conditions that you could sail a dingy down to Half Moon Bay. Conversely, the wrong conditions are humbling and scary. The answer isn't easy. The best thing is to do a few trips on other boats that have been there and done that, or on your own with experienced friends/crew that can show you the ropes.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

I would consider a 30' boat close to the minimum size you would want for going out SF Gate and up or down the coast. Yes; there have been Cal 20's that have done the SF-Hawaii race and other coastal races, but personally I think those people are nuts.

It's not so much if a Cat 30 or Beneteau can sail in the ocean; it's what conditions you would go out there in. In general; the weather conditions had better be pretty light in order to go out across the SF Bar; and the same for coming back in. Otherwise you can get into big trouble (getting broached or rolled). The near-shore swell tends to stack up into steeper, shorter period waves; which make sailing upwind difficult if not sometimes impossible if the wind is light or windpoint is 45 deg from the swell direction (which puts you sailing directly into them). The only way to combat this is to sail further out (off of the continental shelf); but then you may be in for heavier seas if the offshore swell is larger than near-shore (also not good for a 30' boat).

What does this mean? I'd say that you would need to pick your weather windows very carefully; and be ready for sudden changes and always have a fall-back plan. Don't get yourself into the situation where you MUST make it back to SF Bay by a certain date/time. If weather comes up before your return trip be prepared to wait it out in Drakes or get a ride home from Half Moon Bay and leave the boat in a slip at HMB for the week or two (until there is another weather window to sail home).

Beneteaus like light wind and flat seas. I'd consider the Catalina a better choice for SF Bay and Offshore sailing. And yes; if you go outside the mouth of SF Gate you are "offshore" no matter how close you are to the coast.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Legarots,

Puddinlegs hit the 10 ring. I had many years experience out the gate
and back, the important part. Suggest you go out with someone
who has lots of experience for a first hand look at what you are
getting into, it may save your life.

Dabnis


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## Guero (Dec 29, 2009)

A friend of mine has is Catalina 30 in Isla Mujeres, Mexico. The boat didn't flew there, it was sailed there. Weather windows are a must, like in all boats. I like those boats despite the constant bashing of the Catalina brand.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

KeelHaulin said:


> I would consider a 30' boat close to the minimum size you would want for going out SF Gate and up or down the coast. Yes; there have been Cal 20's that have done the SF-Hawaii race and other coastal races, but personally I think those people are nuts.
> 
> Beneteaus like light wind and flat seas. I'd consider the Catalina a better choice for SF Bay and Offshore sailing. And yes; if you go outside the mouth of SF Gate you are "offshore" no matter how close you are to the coast.


Just a couple quick things... the Moore 24 is one of the most seaworthy boats under 30' on the planet. With the right skill set, nothing crazy about being on the ocean with them at all. And be careful when lumping all Beneteau's together. Many of the 'first' series have great offshore track records... but we're digressing..


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

The original question was about the boat being capable. My experience 
was over a period of 15 years in 3 different boats, one of them a 
Coronado 25 sailing in the bay and many, many trips outside salmon fishing.
We were always very cautious about the weather and sea conditions
and survived. As mentioned earlier the focus should be on one's ability
and experience. In my humble opinion nothing beats size and strength.

Dabnis


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## F4d3d (Jun 4, 2010)

When I was anchored at Isla Mujeres, México, a couple of years ago, I spoke with a guy who had circumnavigated solo in a Catalina 27. He'd since done a second Circumnavigation in another boat, and was then starting his third on yet another boat! (but this time not solo). He was young at the time, but had years of experience and prepared well for his passages - he said for the most part it was fine. 

I think that I wouldn't choose to circumnavigate in a C27, but it goes to show that many boats are decently capable of blue water cruising if cared for well, handled by experienced captain/crew, and perhaps a bit of luck.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

A lot of interesting opinions from people who either don’t regularly sail Northern California or the C30. I have done both. A lot. Let’s divide the discussion into the C30’s capabilities and then strategies for sailing the Gulf of the Farallones.

First, the C30: The C30 has been around for a very long time. It was first designed back in the IOR days and despite the numerous upgrades and tweaks it still displays that early influence. The boat predates the EC ratings and that is why you do not see the rating on older models. To obtain the rating, some relaively minor changes were made, while the basic hull, rig, and sailplan remained essentially the same. All versions of the C30 conform to their class one design rule. The boat has always adhered to the AYBA standards of the day. Granted, the standards have been improved upon over time and the more recent boats have obviously benefited from that. A misnomer is the large companionway opening. The Ericson, Newport and Ranger companionways have approximately the same cross section. Whereas the Catalina is wider at the top, the others have a lower bridge deck with Newport’s being almost at the cockpit level. The two cockpit drainlines are one inch so a completely swamped cockpit is slow to drain. 

The knock on the boat in the racing circles here is that it is a heavy cruiser, requiring 15 knots of wind before it will start to sail to it’s rating of 180. Above that, (and in the hands of a compident skipper and crew) the boat is extremely competitive in our YRA’s SF180 class. Remember that a C309 (one of the current versions of the 30) did this year’s Single Handed Transpac and he sailed it back after only a week layover in Hawaii. And, his keel stayed on for the entire trip.

Strategies for the Gulf of the Farallones: It doesn’t matter if you own a Catalina or a Swan, at times the Gulf and the SF Bar can be downright dangerous. All mariners should take prudent precautions. Understanding our unique combination of winds, tidal action and coastal currents will go a long way in safely transiting the Bar. Simple rules of thumb: The winds build throughout the day and way into the night. Exit in the morning, try to enter before mid afternoon (especially if returning from HMB); Tide tables mean nothing. Current tables mean everything; Cross at slack or a dieing flood. Never at peak ebb and late afternoon. Current lines look more like washing machines; Check the KPIX marine forecast on the web before going – it is a NOAA feed. Depending upon your skill level, stay in the Bay if the forecast is for a swell height greater than ten feet and wave periods less than 10 seconds. Sometimes the winds from “gale alley” will extend down into the Gulf of the Farallones. This should show up on the forecast. 20-30 kts outside the gate is harder to sail in than inside the Bay.

<O
Trip Planning for both HMB and Drake’s: Leave early in the morning (mainly to get a good anchoring spot). Depending upon the conditions, take the Bonita channel to Drake’s and go out to at least Red 8 before turning south (to avoid most of the south shoal, I will go as far as Red 4).

The anchorage at Drake’s is usually fog free. Anchor as close to the shore as you are comfortable (in the vicinity of the boat house and fish dock). The prevailing winds are usually from the north and will blow you away from shore albeit, a bit surgie. If you want to return via the Frallones, leave early, it will be a long day and you will find yourself crossing the Bar in the afternoon to evening hours.

<OHMB is easy, stay off the coast. Avoid the South Shoal and Ocean Beach area. For less confused seas, steer wide of Montero and Pillar Points. If at all concerned about crossing the reef at HMB, call the Harbormaster on Ch16. You can always go around the reef to the south (adds an hour +). HMB has a really good anchorage or you can get a temporary slip in the harbor. HMBYC puts on a great party over the Labor Day weekend, and you can buddy boat with the hundred or so others that come down for the weekend. When returning, leave early! Entering the Bay from the south is actually more dangerous than from the north. When in doubt, sail first to the lightbucket and then down the ship channel.

<OFog: There is a lot of it. Expect most of your trips to be in low visability. Know how to navigate. Carry a GPS (or two).


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

GeorgeB,

Excellent write up, spot on!! We anchored one night just off of the fish
dock in Drakes Bay, blew like the devil all night, thought the cabin top
was going to be ripped off. There was lots of kelp on the bottom there
that we weren't aware of. Next morning using the motor to come up
over the anchor we sucked up a big gob of kelp in the raw water
intake, had to dive (no wet suit) to clear it. There may be less kelp
200 to 300 yards further out?

Dabnis


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## legarots (Jun 9, 2009)

A lot of good input here, especially thanks to GeorgeB for the detailed info about the bay area strategy. Sounds like it is definitely doable, provided strict attention is paid to the weather. From the chart it looks like from Red 8 to Red 4 is only 1.5 nm - not a big deal to go all the way to 4 before turning south for HMB.


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## mccary (Feb 24, 2002)

puddinlegs said:


> No offense, but most all boats are tougher than those sailing them. It's usually poor choices made by sailors that finds those same boats a quick end on the rocks or beach. Sometimes the boat survives just fine, but the people don't.


I can only think of the 79 Fasnet Race. If I recall 15 sailors died that night and many abandoned boats ended up just fine. The boats were better suited for the extreme conditions than the crews.



F4d3d said:


> When I was anchored at Isla Mujeres, México, a couple of years ago, I spoke with a guy who had circumnavigated solo in a Catalina 27. ...[edited]
> I think that I wouldn't choose to circumnavigate in a C27, but it goes to show that many boats are decently capable of blue water cruising if cared for well, handled by experienced captain/crew, and perhaps a bit of luck.


I sail a Catalina 27 and have read many posts by that skipper. That Catalina was modified to make the voyage. He raised the companionway threshold level, be beefed up the port lights to name just a few modifications.

And that said and considering I know a Cat 27 fairly well, I would NEVER consider such a voyage. The Catalina 27 is a fine coastal cruiser but it is NOT a blue-water boat.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Wow all that and fog too. I can see why its such a popular place to sail.
Adding one more bit of praise to George B for his addition of "everything you need to know about sailing out the Gate."

Can the wind blow and be foggy in the Gate? I grew up with a view of the Bay and the GG and certainly remember the fog. This was before the sailing bug bit me though.

Can you have;
Huge 30+ winds
Ocean swells
Choppy Waves
Washing Machine like currents.
and fog all at the same time?

Also factor in the shipping channel, I think I'd want to add a radar as well as a handful of GPSs.

Another thing to consider is the boats age and condition. The Catalina listed as sailing the Transpac and back sounds new(er). The C27 that circumnavigated had extra stringers added as a start to the list of upgrades. I think the last thing you would about if you got stuck out in some bad conditions trying to bash back through the gate is the integrity of your 22 year old stays.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Great post GeorgeB


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Thanks, I always enjoy going to Drakes. That portion of the coast is a National Seashore so there is no development whatsoever and I always think of Drake, the Golden Hind and New Abion when going there. You want to know my "secret" anchoring spots too? Remember that kelp grows on rocks so when you are very close to the western shore, you will have to drop it in the sand/mud bottom between the outcroppings. Try a little more to the north in about 20-30' of water. You can anchor out past the USCG mooring if you have enough scope. It is a gently sloping bottom with good holding. You can be out a ways but the further out you are, you will encounter two potential problems. First, the closer to shore, the more protected from the wind. Out by the USCG buoy, it will howl all night. Second, the further out you are, the more at risk for the winds clocking to the southwest and giving you an even worse night. Then you have only two options, resetting the anchor closer to shore or sailing back to SF in the middle of the night, in a gale. Done both, neither is any fun. However the vast majority of trips are quite enjoyable with the fall being the prime time to cruise Drakes and HMB.

Just remember, be prudent, and for every snotty day, there is a nice day. Picture is of us flying the kite going westward towards the Potato Patch (weird day, started with an offshore breeze in the morning, then clocked to the west once we passed over the north shoal. We flew the kite in both directions that day!)<O


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## BoxedUp (Nov 22, 2006)

GeorgeB said:


> Strategies for the Gulf of the Farallones.....


Sounds like a good theme for a MasterCard Commercial: (#'s subject to change)

Big sturdy boat: over $200,000
High-tech electronics: $25,000
Local knowledge to save your life: Priceless

Good stuff GeorgeB!


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Legarots, here's the link for the local Catalina 30 owners group in San Fran.

San Francisco - Catalina 30 Fleet 1

Jim


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## jackl (Mar 9, 2007)

Hey GeorgeB--thanks for the great local advice. I'm curious to know your thoughts on conditions in the Gulf of the Farallones during the common situation where the high pressure sits just off our coast and drives 20-30 knots NWerlies down "gale alley" offshore and just north of Pt. Reyes. When this is set up, is it still often relatively quiet in the Gulf?

thanks


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Remember that Pt. Reyes/ Farallone Islands is one of those few areas in California where the synoptic winds can migrate close to shore. I would be cautious if the weather forecast is for high winds off the Mendocino Coastline. This photo was taken about 10AM and halfway home from Drakes. We didn't have the camera out later in the day when it was really blowing. We saw breaking waves inside Bonita channel and diverted to the light bucket, but encountered breaking waves even inside the shipping channel.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I think most of it depends on the skipper. Venture 21's sail out of the gate without issue but they pick their windows carefully.


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