# Is cruising only for my parents?



## Newport41 (Jun 30, 2006)

I've been reading forums and articles here for months and there's something that they all have in common. Why is it that everyone talking about cruising is double my age? I understand the obvious reasons. Can't go because of kids, career, finances, ect. But tell me, is there anyone here planning on going cruising before they're retired? And those of you who are retired, and have been to the South Pacific, across the Atlantic or even just to the Caribbean, have you seen anyone out there under thirty? I'm 24. I wasn't born into money or given anything. I've managed to make it happen. I own a boat, she's well outfitted and I'm in the planning stages of leaving for the South Pacific next season. So, I've proven that if someone wants to do it while they're young, they can. Am I the only one? And another question for those seasoned cruisers. How do you think your experiences would have been different if you'd done it when you were 24? Looking forward to hearing back, you all seem like a good group of people with a lot of knowledge and even more opinions.  Thanks, Chris,


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

First of all Dude....This site is for Geezers and Preeners. (Wannabes). Most people on this site don't leave their harbors let alone their hemisphere. But they are very good at talking about it and excel at criticizing. 
I have said on this site many times that if you have sailed the Carribean you know that there are so many more kids like you on small boats than people on big boats. The big Boats you do see are owned by a cruising charter corporation. I say go get it and have fun. 
When I was young I sailed the Carribean with a band of brothers in search of big waves. We had an awesome two years of surfing, diving and partying. I returned to go to law school. You are 100% correct that now is the time to go and get it. Good luck Chris.


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## infonote (Jun 27, 2006)

Youths like us mostly go racing.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Cruising is for anyone who enjoys it (how's that for stating the obvious).

Will you enjoy it? It's probably best to find out on something less than a trip to the South Pacific. There are some awe-inspiring distances that you and anybody with you will have to endure. Do a shorter trip first. One that has at least one other port. Be sure it's what you want.

And if it is, go for it!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

There are plenty of geezers who race infonote!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

You want to know what some of us geezers think about going cruising early. I cannot say that I have a strong opinion one way or another, because going cruising is such a personal experience. For what it is worth, I can only tell you about my own experiences and life. 

A lot of us who are approaching geezerhood, went cruising when we were younger, before beginning our 'real' lives. In my case when I got out of college, I bought an old wooden 25 foot Folkboat for $400 fixed her up and lived aboard for a while. I did not have the money, or the urge to do anything more than coastal cruising, picking up odd jobs, parking cars and bussing tables as I went. I frankly I personally find being offshore pretty boring and prefer poking around, exploring places along the coast.

I have owned cruising boats or racer-cruiser type boats of one kind or another ever since the early 1970's, and have cruised for 42 of my 55 years. I still actively race my boat single and double handed, race other people's boats and cruise mostly my own boat. As my sailmaker says, I cruise like most people race, keeping the boat up to speed and shunning use of the engine. 

In any event, when I was in my 20's, wherever you looked there were young people out cruising. Most of us were in 30 foot or less, old wooden boats. We lived simply and cheaply. We anchored out in free public anchorages, and used free public dinghy docks. We'd haul out at DIY yards and do our own maintenance. We'd barter and trade stuff, help each other out. It was almost a floating extention of the hippie culture of that era. We'd work for a while, lay in a supply of generic can goods and then keep moving. While I mostly stayed around southern Florida, the Hippie sailors of the 1960's and 1970's went all over the place. 

It was a good life but wasn't a full enough life for me. Speaking only for myself, and not trying to imply that one course in life is more proper than another, as a kid I the cruising life felt superficial, self indulgent, and detatched from the world. I wanted to do more with my life than simply sail and work odd jobs. 

I eventually went back to graduate school and became an architect. For me there was a lot that I like about being part of a shore based community. And for me I like the idea of designing buildings that will positively touch people's lives long after I am gone. For me cruising was an important part of life but was not the meaning of life. But as I said above that is just me.....I still enjoy cruising and as a long term goal, hope to cruise longer periods of time, eventually retiring aboard and perhaps exploring Europe using my boat as a base of operation. 

I get a lot of email from people, of all ages, thinking of doing what you are considering doing. They come from all walks of life and have all kinds of asperations from setting somekind of rounding record, to stopping almost everywhere along the way. They have all kinds of budgets and all kinds of skill levels. The one thing that keeps hitting me is that back in the 1970's, when people went cruising it was in small, reasonably well suited designs.

Today I see a lot more people, like yourself, buying increasingly large, often poorly suited boats (both in terms of build quality and design) and somehow trying to make it work. For examples boats like the Newport 41 were never meant for the kind of abuse that a circumnavigation implies. The Newports were cheaply built, ill-handling, miserable seaboats intended raced by large crews. They can be adapted for offshore work, but they never were particularly robust and I question how well one of these old girls will hold up to the abuse that you intend her to withstand. On the other hand you can buy them cheaply, and the Newport does not make the whole trip, you can always replace like they did with Dove. As the old southern expression says, No great loss, you were looking for a boat when you bought her. 

As I track these people's paths, I find that the vast majority, alter their plans along the way. taking different routes, discovering that offshore work does not thrill them, shortening trips or extending trips. Wearing out and replacing boats (sometimes bigger, sometimes smaller) Some spend the rest of their days out there. Some never become distance voyagers. 

I don't see this as a failure in any way. To me cruising is about the experiences that youy have out there and there is no yardstick for a successful voyage except getting out alive and mostly uninjured, and truly seeing and feeling the world that passes along the way. It is about getting out there and doing. 

With all due respect to Surfesq, I strongly disagree with his position that "This site is for Geezers and Preeners. (Wannabes)." Surfesq has posted his own definition of what a 'sailor' and that definition seems to be quite specific. While it may be valid for Surfesq to define himself as a sailor, I strongly disagree that his definition should be viewed as a universal truth (I am not sure that Surfesq means to do that). 

From my perspective, we all come to sailing for our own reasons, and take from it what we want. Stereotypical ideas and grandious plans do not a sailor make. If cruising around the world is what floats your boat, then I think that is quite valid for you to do. But at least around here, I find a lot of people your age who own boats, and sail them quite frequently. To me the joy that they recieve from sailing is no less valid, or no more valid than people who chose to pursue a more aggressive sailing life. That does not make them preeners.There is no universal right and wrong way to be a sailor. There are only people who chose to go out on the water under sail for their own pleasure. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Chris.. I am not one of those who usually respond "go now". My feelings are that everyone has their own idea of what cruising should be like and my advice is to wait until you are competent enough to undertake the adventure you want AND financially able to do it in the style you want. Otherwise your cruise will end unhappily. 
For me...that meant waiting till the kids were grown...blah, blah.
For you...that day will come much sooner it seems. It sounds as if you are quite mechanically competent and self reliant and you have a boat that can take you where you want to go. I assume you have the sailing experience to handle your boat in all kinds of weather and will outfit her appropriately for cruising in isolated places. The only thing I would suggest to you is to cruise to someplace easy for your first 6 months or so and get used to living aboard the boat and figuring out what works and doesn't for you. 
There are lots of under 30's out there and living modestly on boats smaller than yours. The only thing bad about going cruising while you're young is that you'll have to give up and go to work again some day. That is something I don't have to worry about! <grin>


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jeff: 

You have really strong opinions and that's fine. But I have read a lot of your comments in the archives and you definitely are not timid about expressing your views. You should be the last guy to criticize anyone for expressing a view point!  Incidentally, not much has changed in cruising. It's still a bunch of young kids filing the islands with small boats. I go to Puerto Rico every winter to surf and I am always amazed at the numbers of young people seeing the world from a boat. 

By the way Jeff, by your own admission you are a geezer! lol. (I have a few short years left before geezer-hood). I would certainly not call you a preener, you are very knowledgeable and I respect your opinions. But you have to admit that there are a lot of goofballs on this site. 

As for our young man, Dude, go do it. Don't let a bunch of people on a silly website talk you into staying here and working at Wendy's. See the world, experience the cultures of other countries. The "real" world will be here waiting for you when you return. Look at Jeff H...he was a hippie for cripes sakes and now he contributes to Urban Sprawl! lol. (By the way, I studied architecture in college as well but had the good sense to go to law school). The best year of my life was spent surfing in South America on a break from college. I learned to respect other people for who they were rather than what they have. But I would make sure you boat was seaworthy before you go.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Actually Chris, don't let anybody talk you into anything. It's your life, live it as you see fit. Seek opinions from others, but not reasons. Be honest to yourself, and don't worry about what others may think or say.

Regards,


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## BigRed56 (May 27, 2001)

*Pirates opinion*

Ahoy me lad, ye be fortunate to have the nerve to be a sailor at your age. Truth is the sport of sailing is a rich mans game and well crusing is expensive as hell if your still making the mortgage back at the ranch and if your career is sacrificed for your time spent at sea. Relationships don't hold up to well either. Truth is unless your retired or sponsored is some fashion you'd better have a nice nest egg to rely upon. Crusing as you speak is not for anyone but the most ardent of sailors. Taking a two week cruise down the Chesapeake is called boating. Chartering a sailboat in the islands is called a vacation. Voyaging to the south seas alone is extreme sport. I've spent enough time in the big blue water to tell you it is hard and lonley and dangerous.For me it is also the best times of my life when I can forsake my worldy attachments and test my nerve and skills with god almighty himself. I find nothing lacking in crusing as a way of life, but its just not a very productive way to spend your young life. Being a sailing bum for a few years isn't going to ruin your life either. Go have a good time , See you on the horizon. Pirate of Pine Island.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Red: You make some valid points and it sounds like you have some interesting experiences. Crossing the Pacific without a lot of experience is a significant undertaking. Yes, a weekend on the Bay is not cruising. (But it's fun). 
I also have a lot of blue water experience and I agree its nothing to take lightly. I sailed to Bermuda and on to the Islands the first time at age 21 so in my opinion 24 is not too young. I do not think cruising is just for the rich. Maybe you just have forgotten how little you need when you are a kid.


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## Newport41 (Jun 30, 2006)

*Jeff Jeff Jeff, stick with the wood boats buddy*

Don't get me wrong, I love wood boats, I grew up on them. But you clearly don;t know what makes a good fiberglass boat. The Newport 41 is built like a tank. A fast tank yes, but a tank none the less. 18000lbs, 8000 of it ballast, rod rigging, narrow, low freeboard, the cockpit is big I know but well protected none the less, my MKII riudder keeps her in control on any wave face, she's the best of the old and the new designs. No, she isn't purpose built for offshore, but I have talked with some of the best naval architects and some of the mosr seasoned bluewater cruisers, and funny, they all liked it. Guess you know more them then hey?  Thanks for the reply none then less but do your research before you tear into my boat


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

JeffH: A humiliating blowback! lol. As I have said before, you have very strong opinions. But opinions are just that.

NP41: Practical Sailor loves your boat. (I think a tad more reliable than JeffH). Here is a link to their review wherein the owners point out a 1000 mile trip to Hawii which was quite comfortable. Looks like you have a pretty sweet boat there.

http://www.davidshore.com/Maestro/Newport41PSReview.pdf


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Dude...I know Pirates Booty would love to "crew" for you. You should check her out....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Why not?*

At last a man who sails and is under 30 - am I dreaming?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Now I know what the "booty" stands for......


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Newport 41, 

I have raced and sailed these boats since before you were born, racing them back when they were new and many times since. I still have the scar on my leg gotten when the spinnaker turning block pulled out of the deck on one taking a chunk of deck with it. I have jammed sailbags into the forepeak to reduce the amount that the bow sections were panting. I have personally repaired these puppies when they came apart. 

The hulls I've cut into were crudely laid up, resin rich in places, resin lean in others, with, by any reasonable standard, proportionately large amounts of non-directional fabric. The epitome of how to build a fatigue prone boat, and we are now discussion a fatigue prone hull, that is now 30 plus years old. 

These are good boats upwind, but get into big quartering sea and they become an absolute bear to sail, especially shorthanded, wandering in ways that their small rudders (even the MK11, which was only slightly better) can't begin to deal with. These are extremely high rigging load designs that place extremely high point loads into very concentrated areas of the hull and require the kind of strength to sail that really grinds down a crew in changeable conditions. 

I don't who your so called "best naval architects" are or whether they have actually spent a moment's time sailing these old girls, trying to keep them together, or putting them back together, or fought their way through a storm in one, or personally ground into the voids and resin pools in their lay-up with their own hands, but I will stand by my own personal experiences with these boats and what I have seen with my own eyes. 

And yes, I know that some of these boats have done some very long distance cruising, and, yes, I know there are some very large variations in build quality over the production run of these boats with some of the later boats being better built than the early and last boats, and yes, you may have actually gotten the only one that actually was built like a tank, but the last time we had this discussion one of the folks that had actually done the Pacific on one came into the discussion and described completely reinforcing the hull to deck joint, adding bulkheads and reglassing the existing bulkheads back in, and building a new rudder in paradise trying to keep his boat together. 

Look Kid, I have owned, cruised, raced, and designed, built and repaired wood, steel, ferro cement and fiberglass boats for nearly twice your lifespan. I know what makes a good fiberglass boat and if you listen you might actually learn something here. Tons of poorly laid up fiberglass does not a good fiberglass boat make. Proper engineering, good resin and fabric handling, proper internal framing, and proper resin ratio's make a good fiberglass boat. The Newport 41's that I have spent time with were just plain crudely built. They were fine for what they were built for, but you are mistaken if you think they are rugged or even heavily built. The Newport 41 is not especially heavy for a 41 foot boat (1500 lbs lighter with a 1000 lbs less ballast than the 5 inches longer better framed Beneteau 42) and certainly not robust, and certainly not tank like. 

While C&C was at the top of their form when they designed the Newport 41, and the 41's were great bargain basement race boats for their day, they in no way belong on the pinnacle that you have placed them. I will pass back to you your own advice, do your own research with someone who actually knows these boats inside and out before spouting off. Mouthing off, you only show your ignorance. 

BUT In any event, my point in my original post was to answer your question as best I could, and not to suggest whether you should go off cruising or not, or for that matter whether suggest that your boat is the right boat for you or not. My comments were simply to note that you, like many people your age seem to chose larger boats than were chosen by people your age a few generations back, and that this generation often chooses from bigger, obsolete old race boats with all of their liabilities. My comments were not meant as a value judgment; they were meant as simple observation. 


Jeff


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## snider (Jun 26, 2006)

*25 yo*

I'm 25 abd I've been planning and getting everything together to go cruising for about five years now, left my job for a career better suited for travel, went back to school, finishing up now and looking at boats. I'd like a pacific seacraft 34, but it's a little more than I want to pay. I'd love to find a good 28 to 32 footer. Even looked at tha Dana 24, but as I'll be living aboard and stopping to work once in a while I like to have a little bigger. I also would like to also be able to take on two or three crew from time to time. I'll have the boat early next year, and be off within a year, doing some coastal rips and the Bahamas in the time being. Good Luck, I'll see ya on the water.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Newport 41....
You got faced! Awesome.....
Who knows, its the internet. Jeff could be just making all of it up! (I doubt it but it would be kind of cool if he was just completely BS'ing you). 
One thing I would add to what Jeff is saying is that for every boat out there you will find at least one peson who has sailed it across an ocean. 
On my Fight Club thread, I told a story about a kid I encountered in Puerto Rico a few years ago. (I go for a month to surf every winter). But it has relevance to this discussion and Jeff's point. 
I was sitting on my buddies dive boat drinking an El Presidente, (we had just returned from a dive), when this guy sails up in a 20 foot daysailor with an outboard. He asks if he can tie off. Over a beer he proceeds to tell us that he had just arrived from Africa and was looking to sell his boat for the price of plane ticket back to Germany. True Story! You see the story begs the question, did the fact that he had just crossed an ocean make his 20 footer a good blue water boat? When you think about this story...you can start to see Jeff's point.
A fin keel boat like yours will always give you an ass kicking at sea when heading up wind. It's just a fact. A full keel boat is more comfortable. That is why true ocean going boats like Island Packets for example utilize a full keel design. You have a nice and very fast boat. It just may not be a very comfortable ride out there in the Pacific.


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## Newport41 (Jun 30, 2006)

*Let me know what you sail so I can tear a strip off it*

Jeff,

I don't mean to disregard your opinions. You do seem to know what you're talking about for the most part. Yes there have been some badly made Newports and yes the fiberglass is primative. Mine was built much later in the production run and the resin pockets and bad lay up you speak of don't seem to be a problem with mine, although she is an inch thick below the water line. I have installed large backing plates on high stress areas so that I won't get a scar from any fittings ripping out of the deck. With the deep keel (6ft) and the mkII rudder she handles well even with my brother flying the chute way too high as he often does and a fifteen foot following sea. I know 18000lbs isn't really heavy. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I was refering to the ballast ratio. Speaking of numbers, I'll let you look up the ultimate stability rating yourself. And I appreciate that you've sailed these before but I own one, and it isn't older than I am like the one's you've been on. She's not perfect. I've made a lot of modifications. To say that she's poorly built is unfair and you have to admit the hull design is one of C&C's better. You can't blame a sailor for getting defensive about his Vessel. As for the size and the comments about the cost. Well, she was bigger than I was looking for, but I went for a sail on her and fell in love, you've sailed them so you know how they move. As for people's coments about the cost of cruising. I's been a long road to get here. The boat I bought has been offshore recently and has extensive equipment uncluding monitor wind vane, good sails, and various electronics. The best part is the set up is exactly what I wanted. Simple. Simple basic systems, no fancy chart plotters and air conditioning. I'm young with a young crew. We can rough it, to a point. She still needs a lot of work but at may age you can afford these things when you don't have a lot of other financial obligations. I also work as a forest firefighter for the government so I make good money and have the winter to ge the boat ready. Thanks again for the entertaining discussion.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Talk about BS'ing...Surfesq, "A full keel boat is more comfortable" ? Where do you come up with this stuff? 

There is absolutely no relationship between a full keel and comfort. It is true that many a boat that is comfortable for offshore work has a full keel, but its not the full keel that makes the boat comfortable. Motion comfort comes from a cluster of factors that revolve around a boat's buoyancy and weight distribution, and dampening. Keel shape may come into play on some specific design but from a motion comfort standpoint a full keel offers no specific advanage and infact can offer disadvantages in terms of absorbing greater impact area for its weight. 

You might argue that a full keel provides better directional stability, which is more often true than not, but motion, forget about it. No relationship at all. Sorry Dude.....

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Newport 41

One of the crummy things about the internet is you don't get a chance to look the other guy in the face and see where he's coming from. Face to face you would have said, "Hey, wait a minute, I like my boat!" and I would have had a chance to explain where I was coming from, long before we engaged in the internet equivillent of throwing down gauntlets and naming seconds. 

Beefed up a bit, and treated with a bit more circumspection than you might treat a boat that was purpose built for offshore work, the Newport could work for what you want to do. There's a good chance you'll wear the old girl out before your reach OZ or NZ but that's not the end of the world either. 

My point was not that the Newport was any less capable than the boats that we sailed back when I was your age, It is certainly a lot more seaworthy than the 1949 wooden Folkboat that I restored when I was 24 and tried to live on. Its just a very different approach.

If you want to throw stones, I sail a Farr 38. Few around here would think of her as an offshore cruiser either. I know her shortcomings, her bunks are narrow, her fuel supply is a joke, she doesn't track worth a darn, but I bought her for her strengths, good motion comfort, very easy to handle, lots of room, good offshore manners, brilliant engineering, and great speed for a 10,500 lb boat.

In life most people end up with boats they love, freckles and all. Boats look more like their owners, inside and out, than dogs ever will. 

A tip of the hat to you and a wish of good luck,
Jeff


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

And all of this reminds me of a story from when I was Newport's age. I know that I have told this story here before. Sorry to those who have read it.

In the early 1970's, Dinner Key (Just south of Miami on Biscayne Bay) was a gathering place for a disparate collection of vaguely nautical types. A strange maritime amalgam that ranged from the white be-blazered swells at Coral Reef yacht Club to the castoffs that camped on the small barrier islands that marked the entrance to Dinner Key. It included the retired military lifers with their proper yachts, and the hippies with their strangely cobbled together vessels; old lifeboat conversions and weirdly converted wooden race boats, old Bahamas sloops and Cuban fishing smacks. This was time of great polarization in this country, but on the waterfront, life was a strange blending of diverse factions, living shoulder to shoulder, a stirring and mixing of opposites pulled together by our common gravity of being sailors. 

This mix of the rich and the raucous, the saint and the stew bum, was constantly changing as boats and people came and went. I was there at ground zero, the D.I.T (Do it yourself) yard at Dinner Key, a 23-year-old, fresh out of architecture school, restoring a wooden folkboat, Diana; a lapstraker that was a year older than myself. It was not unusual to visit or be visited by others working on their own boats when the heat became too great to continue, or the skies opened up and we all ran for cover in the great shed. There was this sense of community as we each wrestled with each of our boat's own particular form of torture. Mine was keel bolts. But that is another story. 

Occasionally, there would be one boat and one person that really needed the help of the community and the Irish Kid was one of those. The Irish Kid (I don't know if I ever knew his name) came to the States from Ireland to see his father who was a dog trainer at the greyhound racetracks. His visa only allowed the Irish Kid a few months in this country, and he had already extended it as far as he could. Immigration had ordered him to leave by noon of a certain day after which they would arrest him and deport him. 

For a reason completely lost to time and myself, the Irish Kid had decided to leave by buying a boat and sailing to the Bahamas, at that time still a British possession. He had bought a neat little 20 or so foot plywood sloop, which was more or less a miniature Folkboat interpreted in multi-chine plywood. She was a pretty little fractional rigged, moderately long keeled, sloop, painted a cheery yellow by some prior owner. Unfortunately the boat needed some serious repairs so she was hauled out in Dinner Key Marina a couple boats away from 'Diana'. 

The Irish Kid had only planned to haul out a few days, maybe a week at the most, before being launched again and well before his deadline to leave the states. As in all boat repairs, it did not work out that way. The required repairs were far more extensive and time consuming than he had planned. All of us in the yard felt sorry for him and tried to help as best we could. I had found a source for government surplus bottom paint and so picked up an extra gallon for him. His mast step had rotted out and had also rotted the painted plywood deck below it. A number of us spent a night cutting the deck apart and scarfing in a new piece of deck and building him a new mast step. One of the guys donated the wreck of an old rig and its parts were scavenged to replace pieces of bad rigging. And so it went.

Every couple days, a black Ford galaxy with U.S. government plates would pull into the boat yard and two men in suits would talk to the Irish Kid and let him know that they would not allow him a minute more than the allotted deadline to leave. This very much scared the Irish Kid since all of his money was tied up in that boat, and if he was carted off and sent home, he believed the boat would be seized by the Government to pay for his airfare.

Adding to the pathos of this whole venture was the fact that the Irish Kid did not know how to sail, or navigate and had not spent time around boats. Originally, there was a hippie that had planned to sail over to the Bahamas with the Irish Kid. We all knew this hippie to be less than perfectly knowledgeable and trustworthy but he was certainly a more experienced sailor than the Kid. A day or two before the Irish Kid was set to leave the hippie decided not to go. 

On the last day leading up to the Irish Kid's planned departure, we all pitched in doing what ever we could to get his boat put back together. We had wanted to take him sailing and make sure that he understood what we had been telling him but he was only launched on the morning that he had to leave. Another sailor and myself drove him up to get some groceries at the supermarket. He had wanted to say good-bye to his father but there was not enough time to run up Hialeah. 

We had tried to convince him to sail over and anchor in 'No-Name Cove' on the opposite side of Biscayne Bay and just daysail until he felt comfortable with the boat, but he was so nervous that he would have his boat seized that he insisted that he would just simply sail over to the Bahamas. But sailing to the Bahamas was anything but simple. For several days a Norther had kept the flags standing out and slatting harshly and had raised whitecaps in the protected water of Biscayne Bay. It was not a good day for a new sailor to try to sail to 'No-Name Cove' by himself no less the Bahamas, But he set sail about 11:00 or so heading across Biscayne Bay to the cut off of Cape Florida on Key Biscayne and out toward the Florida Straights. 

About noon, the black Galaxy showed up. The two guys in suits asked if I knew where the Irish kid had gone. I climbed up the ladder to the deck of 'Diana', and looking seaward, there was a tiny white triangle glowing in the mid-day sun above a spec of a yellow hull heeled down and basically on course for the cut. I pointed and said, "There he is". One of the Government Men came aboard and looked for himself, thanked me, and then they left. 

The Kid did not know how to navigate. One of the guys in the boatyard had laid out a course and told him when the water turned color head 45 Degrees further south until the water turned color again. I don't recall if he could even read a chart. 

These were different times than today. Small yachts did not carry VHF radios. GPS or even Loran did not exist. The Irish Kid's boat did not have a reliable outboard or an electrical system. He had a silly little double D cell powered running light that had a red and green at the front and a white light at the rear that he clipped to his mast. If he failed there was no way to call for help.

In the first few days after the Irish Kid left, I naively listened on the AM radio for news of an air/sea rescue search, but then it hit me, who would call in that search? Over the years I thought of the Irish Kid a lot. In the years after Dinner Key, I'd think of him almost every time I sailed a small boat in a building breeze. But slowly over time I'd think of him less and less. 

To this day I wonder what happened to him. I wonder if he somehow made it, or if perhaps he slipped in to No-Name Cove and did in fact learn to sail. I sometimes imagine him reaching the Bahamas. I wonder how he knew which low sand island was which. I wondered if he knew to look out for coral heads and dope runners. I wondered the current took him north and he missed the Bahamas entirely. Or the Norther blew him south and he piled up on Andros to die tangled in the Mangoves. Or maybe he went on to become a world cruiser of great renown. Maybe he was Tristan Jones. 

Most times when I tell a story there is a moral, or a punchline or even an ending but this one is different. If there's a moral I have yet to figure it out. There is no punchline and as this still haunts me to this day, I am not sure there is even an ending. 

Good night folks,
Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

"There is absolutely no relationship between a full keel and comfort. It is true that many a boat that is comfortable for offshore work has a full keel, but its not the full keel that makes the boat comfortable. Motion comfort comes from a cluster of factors that revolve around a boat's buoyancy and weight distribution, and dampening."

Jeffy: So many times on this site you express these really strong opinions that have no basis in fact. It's amusing. You throw out a bunch of bullshi*t that sounds kind of good but ultimately it makes not sense. Are you saying that a fin keel is just as comfortable as a full keel upwind in heavy seas? Seriously? The common argument about fin keel v. full keel is that a fin keel will point higher but bounce you to death such that you have to fall off. Meanwhile, a full keel will not point as high but will cut through big waves more comfortably. You are a typical architect....engineering envy! 
Stick to what you do best. Waxing poetically about your Jack Kerouac days as a sailor.
By the way, we should get together, smoke some rope and talk about the old days.


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## Newport41 (Jun 30, 2006)

*I could listen to this all day*

I have to put in my two cents here, you guys are way too entertaining. I gotta agree with Surfesq here to a point. The full keel and more traditional bluewater design generally seems to have a better sea motion. That's only logical. On the other hand. There are fin keel boats that when loaded properly can be just as comfortable. I hate to bring up my boat again (that's a lie) but it does't have a flat spot on the hull and has a deep V all the way to the fin keel. This cuts waves well like a full keel but points remarkably well. The weight distribution thing is all about how you stow things. My point is that with a little thought you can have a fin keel with a seakindly motion. Not that a Newport 41 is the only boat that is like this, or even the best example but it is one that I have seen work. Many of the Transpac boats from the same era or sorc boats are the same way. I know I don't have to explain these concepts to the likes of you two. Just trying to point out a middle ground that we could all agree on. Atleast I think we can agree on. It's my job, I'm Canadian.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jeffy the architect:

Your bias on full keel v. fin keel is well documented on this site. Here is something you wrote in 2005:

"Here's the deal as I see it, first off you have been sold the old myth that "full keel makes the boat far more confortable and in follow seas a little more forgiving". Sorry Dude there really is no truth to that. Its an old wive's tale pretty much debunked in testing and in practical reality. While radical fin keels don't do a great job of tracking on their own, moderate length fins coupled with skeg hung rudders and a properly shaped hull form are actually better in a following sea situation where. Full length keels tend to lock in on whichever direction the waves have thrown them and their relatively inefficient rudders generally do not have the ability to steer them out of the broach. Been there, done that......Boats with a cut away forefoot and a skeg rudder have a better chance of being steered out of the broach."


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Exactly Dude: Just go sailing and have fun! Sounds like you have a really nice boat and a good crew. My only bits of advice for you. Invest in Radar and a good chartplotter before you go. There are a lot of boats out there! But you definitely get the cost/age ratio. Don't be talked out of it by people who have long since forgotten about what it means to be young.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Surfesq, 

It may be someone's common wisdom that a "a fin keel will point higher but bounce you to death such that you have to fall off." but any knowledgeable sailor who has spent time in a fin keeled boat designed for offshore work, or who have bothered to read all of the studies of motion comfort including those where they instrumented real boats, will tell you there is virtually no relationship between a full keel motion comfort. 

Frankly, the Brewer 12.8 with its fin keel/cb has a much more comfortable motion than the identical hulled Whitby 42. The Perry designed fin keeled Valiant 37 has no less comfortable a motion than its close sister the Tayana 37.

You need to get out on a variety of boats, attend a few Yacht design seminars presented by people that actually know what they are talking about, and not believe everything that you hear at the bar. 

By the way this is the second time you totally missed it about my career. My degree is a dual architectural engineering degree, and my office strongly supports 'smart growth' principals which means building in intensely developed areas rather than supporting urban sprawl. 

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Ted Brewer:
"The modified full-keel form features generally good handling and directional stability plus reduced wetted surface. The yachts can perform well in all conditions and, as they are generally of heavier displacement than contemporary ballasted-fin boats, they do not give away much in light air, despite the added wetted area. A yacht with a modified full keel can sail right up with the best of them if she is given sail area commensurate with her typically heavier displacement. "

"Full Keel. The keel is the part of a sailboat that is filled with ballast (weight, usually from iron or lead) to counteract the forces on the sails. Some boats have keels that are more or less bolted onto the bottom of the hull. This is fine for coastal cruisers, but not the safest arrangement for heavy-weather sailing. These keels have been known to literally fall off after striking floating objects at sea or getting caught in very rough weather. A better alternative for off-shore cruising is a "full keel." These keels are built into the hull of the boat. In fact, on Candide, it's difficult to determine where the hull ends and the keel begins...as both are constructed from the same continuous mass of fiberglass. The downsides of having a full keel are that the boat will generally be a bit slower, and the boat may not sail as well into the wind. A huge advantage is that full keel boats will generally be much more stable at sea."
www.sleepingwithoars.com


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Gotta love your arrogance by the way Jeff..."any knowledgeable sailor knows." The fallacy in the logic of your argument is now you are actually making the point that Newport 41's boat is more seaworthy than a full keel boat. Not everyone agrees with your point of view Jeff. And, loading up your statements with nonsense like "don't get your facts at a bar" or "I have sailed a million frickin boats so I know more" only makes you sound like a dumbass rather than like the image you are trying to project. (With all due respect of course). 

Here is a review of a boat about Yacht Design release in 1988:

"What have boat designs lost in the quest for windward performance? Has a century of yacht racing corrupted our ability to design safe, all-around cruisers? How do you quantify a yacht’s comfort and safety characteristics? Do boat owners even understand why their boats have certain features? 

While addressing these questions in Seaworthiness: The Forgotten Factor, C. A. Marchaj attacks modern yachts and promotes the benefits of full-keel, heavy-displacement designs. He relentlessly criticizes the fin keel and skeg rudder and identifies well-known boat designers as charlatans. Marchaj casts doubt upon the entire enterprise of organized keelboat racing, noting the craziness of human ballast hanging on the rail and the inefficiency of extremely heeled light displacement-boats. More troubling, according to the author, are racing design features which make their way into general-purpose boats, where the quest for windward speed at all costs is not a legitimate requirement. Nonetheless the casual boater does not have the option of, nor understand, alternatives that would improve comfort, safety, and cost. 

Marchaj supports his points with detailed math formulas, which may be incomprehensible to some skippers, but the accompanying graphs and pictures are telling and much more accessible. Be prepared for incredible detail, such as individual chapters on pitch, roll, and yaw. But with repetition and visualization, you may begin to literally feel as you read the complex motions of a boat underway. In particular, the drawings of a heavy displacement yacht leaning into waves, maintaining equilibrium, make imminent sense. The action pictures of modern designs will make racing seem needlessly dangerous, not exciting. Though most of the book analyzes hull design, Marchaj also has counterintuitive views above the waterline, such as his support of heavy masts and rigs to dampen roll."

If you really want to impress people...Tell us you have placed a bet that scientists will be able to demonstrate Einstien's String Theory by 2010 (Yes you can bet on this) and that you believe in that there are in fact 11 dimensions.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jeff why do I have a feeling that if I said I liked hamburgers you would say that you studied cooking at the Culinary Institute?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*sailing or spouting?*

This thread just goes to highlight the fact that (most) men are more fond of hearing themselves talk than they are of actually sailing! 

Seriously, why don't we just do a _"Sail-Off"_ and make bets to pit Surfesq against Jeff H in a man-to-man contest on the ocean? I think this is the best solution and it would also be very entertaining to watch for me and the darling young Canadian!

*I start the betting with $5 (US) on Surfesq - even if he does not win in the end, we can be sure he will ram into Jeff and cause some kind of mayhem out on the waves.*

Any takers?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Before I take your bet, I'd like to know what boats the two will be sailing in...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Definitely Sunfish. Perhaps Jeff H. can give the design history and heeling characteristics in a stimulating lecture before the race! Afterwards he can serenade us with some ancient Gregorian Chants while he explains the optimum temperature for cooking hot dogs. lol. (Just kidding Jeff).


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Pirate's Booty- If it's on Sunfish, I'll take the bet.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

How much can you lay on the table, Big Dog?


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I'll bring the booze.


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## Dewey Benson (Jun 28, 2006)

My, my, my how they do carry on in Annapolis!

My old full keel S/S was quite comfortable in a seaway. My fin and skeg Ron Holland feels really good too (and it's REALLY stiff). A well designed and well found vessel when sailed with PROPER TRIM for the conditions will be comfortable.

Each vessel will have its charicteristics and will need to be handled and trimmed accordingly. Both that full keeled tub and that sleek fin'er will labor like pigs in a seaway if over canvassed or overtrimed. Wouldn't you guy's agree?

Remember some of the IOR designs that would go to winward like holy hell, but when run off would either squat and go nowhere, or death roll you into broach city. How does one make that craft comfortable? Ans: don't go down wind stupid! Who can forget seeing those old pancake with a point racers rounding the winward mark and everyone scooting aft befor the lady did a nose dive. LOL!

P.S. Sunfish would be cool One of the funnest sails I ever had was running from St.John to St. Thomas on a Sunfish and flying right onto the beach at the old Sheraton Grand Resort (long sold to some other conglomerate).

Sail off it is!

Dewey


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Depends, what odds are you going to give me on the bet?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Dewey: I cant top sailing from St. John's to St. Thomas on a Sunfish! That's excellent. lol. Here is a good one: When my daughter was about 8 months old, I took my ex-wife to St. John's on vacation. We decided to go to Yost Van Dyke for the day. The ferry broke down and so we hired a fishing boat to take us the rest of the way. Quite a wet mess...but quite fun. Proving the point that it is not the size of the ship..but the motion of the ocean!


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## Dewey Benson (Jun 28, 2006)

Yo Surf!

A delightful area thats on a coast that I don't often get to play on.
Funny story: off topic for this thread: first time on a sailboat in St. Thomas.

Ang and I (yes the same wife I have now) board the "True Love" a John G. Alden Malabar IX (reputed to be his personal boat when launched from Nevins yard) a crewed charter in St Thomas. The first thing I do when boarding a boat in an unfamiliar area is ask to look at the local charts. (Yeah yeah I saw the ******* thread on gps vs other stuff) when I did, the skipper causually waved down below and said "there down there somewhere I think". At that point I asked him how the hell he found his way around and he said " See that (pointing just ahead) thats St. John, see that (Pointing to the left) thats Virgin Gorda" and so on, and so on. LOL! Ya cant do that out here on the West Coast! Different areas require different techniques. Local knowledge is better than anything else!

Dewey


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Pehaps you may want to check this site, http://www.atomvoyages.com/. 
James Baldwin went on a circumanvigation while he was in his early 20s and have completed 2 circumnavigation. Visit his website as it's worth reading and learning at the same time.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Check this site, http://www.atomvoyages.com/. James Baldwin started sailing in his early 20's. Interesting reading and learning site. Have dreamed of circumnavigating on a small boat perhaps one day. Good luck.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

A lot of us dream of cruising at an early age, but the truth is that most do not have the resources to do so. The cost of cruising, maintenance, slip fees, etc., with out any income coming in stops most sailors right in their tacks. Getting married and raising a family tends to get in the way as well. 

That's why I think you see so many of, how did you say it, GEEZERS out cruising. Most wait until the kids are grown and have reached retirement age.

If you have the means and no ties, I say go for it. Why not. 

I look forward to the day when the kids are grown and I am no longer working, untill than, I will continue with my wekend trips and my (2) week cruises twice a year. Happy cruising!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

There is also a great book written by a woman who was the youngest woman to circumnavigate the globe. The book is about her trip. I can't remember the name of it but she was 18 years old. It's a great book. I will see if I can find it tonight. 
The cost of cruising has become more expensive that it was almost thirty years ago when I first did it full time. Now to really sound like a geezer, you could provide food for yourself by fishing and foraging on the islands. Those days are clearly gone so in a sense I agree with Sailortjk. However, I continue to maintain that a 24 year old man has a much lower level of comfort needs than a 45-60 year old man. As a result, he will naturally cruise for less money! It's a great topic to kick around.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Fish = food*

About eating fish - it is so easy to catch them when you are in the right spot. I went on one of those overnight party boats that drives out at night and you fish when you get up around 5am - I am not even a great fisher and I caught enough fish in about 5-6 hours to last me and one other person for a whole week of dinners.

I also ate some of the fish raw and it was pretty good too - would have been better with some fresh lime and salt, but when I am hungry I am not too picky. 

For a guy like you, I think the main thing you may need to stock is beer - just get it on sale and you will be fine!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Surfesq said:


> There is also a great book written by a woman who was the youngest woman to circumnavigate the globe. The book is about her trip. I can't remember the name of it but she was 18 years old. It's a great book. I will see if I can find it tonight.
> The cost of cruising has become more expensive that it was almost thirty years ago when I first did it full time. Now to really sound like a geezer, you could provide food for yourself by fishing and foraging on the islands. Those days are clearly gone so in a sense I agree with Sailortjk. However, I continue to maintain that a 24 year old man has a much lower level of comfort needs than a 45-60 year old man. As a result, he will naturally cruise for less money! It's a great topic to kick around.


Hmm... Do you mean Maiden Voyage by Tania Aebi??? Excellent read... Her new book is also quite good... it's titled "I've Been Around"


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Yes...That's it. Actually I think she allowed her boyfriend to join her for one leg so she could not get the record right? 
Raw Fish on a boat off California...I hope you squeezed a little lemon on it to cook it before consuming it. You do like to live dangerously....(Sushi is flash frozen to kill those pesky critters that grow to the length of your intestines).


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Good to know - I seem to be attracted to critters - or maybe they are attracted to me... Hmmmm.

What happened to the Canadian?


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

http://www.atomvoyages.com/
All that in a....gasp.....CCA boat. A 28 footer at that! Does Jeff H. know about this? Did Hell freeze over!??!?! OMG!!! Somebody call the Pentagon!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi im 32 and going for the big trip next summer, cant se way you shoudén go.....

www.sy-ekliptika.dk

Jesper


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

That Atom site is very cool! I also checked out Ekliptika...also really sweet. 3years ago I cruised for a year with my ex-wife and my daughter then 2. 
*Viva the Youth Movement!*
We really did not spend as much money as people on this thread are making it seem. 
We sailed everywhere: FREE
We dropped a hook at every harbor where we stayed: FREE 
(Except Newport and we found a local guy who let use his mooring right in the middle of it all for a month for $500. Also Bermuda we had to pay).
We cooked on the boat: Same Price as Home. In the Islands if you are not a kook you can find small local places to shop that are reasonable in price. (A Kook: Must have American Food).

Honestly, the only unusual expense came at the hands of my ex: Shopping!

As I have said many times on this site...The Carribean and most Islands where you sail you tend to run into young people and retirees. The good news is that just enough people are either too conservative or convinced they cannot afford to go to keep the crowds down.

*ONE WORD OF CAUTION:*

There is always a "but!" Remember, however, if you leave the US you have to clear customs at the Port of Entry for each Country or Island and re-enter the US through customs. This is the big expense when you are sailing. (Potentially). Unless of course you get wasted and laid...fall asleep and run into a reef. For example, here is a link that walks you through customs in the Bahamas:

http://www.bahamas-travel.info/ports_of_entry.htm


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One other little point I'd make... If you're serious about cruising—get your boat USCG documented, rather than state registered. There are some major legal advantages to getting it USCG documented, the first and foremost being that makes it a flag vessel of the United States... and that its documentation is recognized world-wide. This is not the case with state-registered boats. 

Boaters cruising in international waters often prefer federal documentation to attain certain protections afforded by the US flag, which include aid from the US consulate when you are in need. Foreign port officials easily recognize federally documented vessels and appreciate that the ownership is supported by a detailed Abstract of Title reflecting all recordings.

Also, in some countries, the customs check-in for documented boats is once per visit—for state registered boats, it is per port...so it gets more expensive to visit other countries.

Also, USCG documented boats often do not have to be state-registered or display state registration numbers on the bow (which I think are really ugly). If you're going to keep the boat a long time, documentation is also less expensive in the long run. A one-time fee of $300 or so.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Yes, excellent point....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

And by the way, I don't want to make it seem that I am ragging too hard on Mr. H. He is obviously very intelligent, albeit a bit misinformed, but well intentioned. Plus, he does have a very cool and fast boat. Hmmmm, maybe if I am nicer to him he wll take me sailing during the next big blow?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Surfesq

I have no interest in exchanging ad homonyms with you, but we clearly have differences of opinions on a lot of subjects. Some of these differences are strictly subjective, but others like your belief that a full keel gives a boat a more comfortable motion and my belief that a full keel has little or no bearing on motion comfort would seem to be more objective than subjective. I think that this is an area where the physics are simple enough that we should be able to explain the science of our positions to each other, and in doing so perhaps provide information that is to the benefit others who might find the discussion interesting. 

If you are amenable to a dialogue on the subject of the impact of full keels on motion comfort I would be glad to pull together an explanation of my position and, with your knowledge of Marchaj, let you fill in any gaps that you may see, and correct any errors that you find in my explanations. I actually have some of this discussion researched and written as a part of a series of articles that I was writing for Cruising World on the technology of sailing, so it should be pretty easy for me to pull this together over the next few days. 

If we keep this a meaningful dialogue, one or both of us should learn something. 

BTW, This was a great sailing weekend on the Bay. Yesterday was a little light filling in during the late afternoon to winds that we read as roughly 20 knots apparent. Today was a great day for sailing with breezes that would have gotten even a full keeled boat moving. 

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jeff: 

I am certain that I can't compete with your knowledge. (Good name dropping though). But I do disagree with the way you stated your position and I also think you overlooked my point which was very simple. A full, (actually a partial full keel) will not point as high as a fin keel. I agree with you on that point. 
However, a fin keel when pointing high into big seas will tend to get bounced around for the comfort of its passengers will likely fall off. Meanwhile a full keel which typically has a heavier displacement tends to be more comfortable when pointing in heavy seas.
I am not necessarily disagreeing with you on the studies that show a fin keel will ride downwind more effectively than a full keel. 
I will readily admit that I have not studied the issue "scientifically." You can dazzle me with geek speak all day long. However, I am confident that my 35 years of experience which includes thousands of hours in blue water in both kinds of boats gives me the right to voice an experienced opinion.

Now what I do object to is the way you dismiss this young man's boat and downgrade his experience. It's a perfectly fine boat and you have no idea whether he has the experience or the means to sail across the Pacific. For God's sake you sailed across the Atlantic on a Barn Door!!!! Now I certainly don't think you meant to insult him because I know your posts are well intentioned. (I am a huge fan of your posts). But sometimes you come across a bit strong. So now you know the reason I enjoy tweaking you.

I also got out this afternoon. I wish I had your Farr today!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

No, geek speak. I'll put it all in plain language. 

Reading your last quote, I think that you are making the mistake that a lot of people make. I too have sailed on light weight fin keeled boats that had miserable motions, But the fact that they were fin keeled had little or nothing to do with their uncomfortable motion. Their lack of motion comfort came from combination of their hull form, and weight distribution. The boat that I owned with the least comfortable motion was a 1939 Stadel cutter which was as full-keeled as they came. 

I made my comment to Chris as a part of the an observation, because Chris isn't the only one out there doing what he is doing and because I know these boats well. While he might do fine with her, the surest way for him to get killed is to over estimate the capabilities of his boat. Unfortunately my first comment came harsher than I intended. 

Another BTW, I have no goal in life of disagreeing with you. If you asked me about Hamburgers or hotdogs, I would answer you honestly, I have been a vegetarian for nearly 40 years and so I know nothing about that topic. 

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Now see that's funny! But you have to admit you love being a contrarian. 
As you know, I recently bought a Seawolf 41 which I think sails great. For me, the ketch rig is a blast and I like the interior room. 
But I know you are not a fan of these boats. The couple that owned it before me sailed it around the world. 
As for your point, you can always point to specific boats to illustrate your point. 
I sailed my Hunter 37 Cutter across the Atlantic, to Bermuda and to New England and found it quite comfortable. But that is a heavy displacement boat. (Quite uncomfortable pointing high in heavy seas). Meanwhile, my buddies Island Packet won't point worth a darn but is very comfortable upwind in big seas. 
I understand what you are saying, I just have a different experience.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Where did Newport 41 go? Did you old foggeys scare him off?


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## banshee (Jun 29, 2006)

just how old do you have to be to qualify as a 'foggey'?


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

First off, foggyhood is an attitude, not an age.

The one thing that has kind of gotten left in the dust here is that in many ways the biggest factor in boat choice is basically emotional. While there are many objective factors in the decision, I believe many people will go with the boat that appeals to them in a subjective way, if the objective matters are sufficent to what they want. Not many people will buy a boat that to them, is ugly, just because it's the best choice. Plus, there are also those who are "wedded" to certain features, be it keel shape, skeg hung rudder, etc..

My 2 cents on the keel question is based on nothing but simple logic. I have no expertise in the area, but it seems that keel shape/type, would have little to do with motion, as the primary forces are bow on. Hull form and displacement, as well as weight distribution would seem to be the major factors. As I say though, that's just from an aspect of simple logic.


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## Irwin32 (Jul 1, 2001)

*Surfesq*

You are a refreshing voice here - though I see you are a senior member and have been around. I do not agree with all you say, but I like your spunk.

I think you should not discredit the geezers who are not out world cruising. Each of us reach our own comfort level with the sport and what is wrong with that?

Jeff H is a storehouse of knowledge, but you are correct that he can be biased. A year ago, after buying a new boat, he and another member trashed my choice. At this point I could not be more thrilled with the boat I bought. Sometimes Jeff does not realize that many of us do know boats and their construction - maybe not as completely as he does - but we are not idiots.


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## sidiag (Jul 5, 2003)

sailingdog said:


> Also, USCG documented boats often do not have to be state-registered or display state registration numbers on the bow (which I think are really ugly).


Here in Indiana they have to registered but NOT state numbered. The state gives you (for the payment of tribute) the square sticker that needs to be places upon both sides of the bow.

Very few states require nothing

It is all about the collection of Rectangular Dollars for Very Important Programs to spend more Rectangular Dollars for more Very . . .

Anyway I digress - the little sticker is no where as ugly as those numbers.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi Irwin 32. I think you missed the point slightly but I understand what you are saying. The geezers are not necessarily old They could be young like PBZeer. They are just old in spirit and criticize anyone who enjoys adrenalin or taking chances. Right out of the gate there were a ton of crackpots who started taking shots at me on the Fight Club thread because they lacked the ability to see the humor in it or the ability to laugh at themselves...

But I also recognize that we can't all be out there cruising the world. As I have pointed out I have a 5 year old unexpected anchor that keeps me in Port more than I would like. But that's life right? 

As for Jeff H. I kid him, he kids me...but I really respect his viewpoint and love reading his threads. What annoys and amuses me is that he just comes right out and hammers people for the boat choices they make. That is why when I get the chance to rip him I take it. Plus he is so serious that its just too much fun to get him going. But I don't dislike him.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Hey Newport 41!*

This is your thread after all. Here is an excellent article that I think goes to the heart of what you were asking. It makes the simple point that you can cruise for far less than the curmudgeons who have brain-washed by advertising believe. Enjoy.

http://www.selfsteer.com/pdfs/GOB_ND05_Martin.pdf


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Just for the record, I'm not a geezer, I'm a fuddy-duddy. Neither am I particularly young, having been born in the first half of the last century. It would be nice if you would take my posts in context, before attaching your labels though. What I SAID was....."if an adrenline rush is all you look for". That doesn't mean you have to avoid those situations, it means that shouldn't be all there is to it. You defined a sailor, I gave a counter definition. But, since you are so much smarter, wiser, knowledgable, and an all-a-round sailing guru, you had to belittle anyone who didn't agree with you. But that's okay, you go right ahead, it will give me something to chuckle about.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The fact that I am smarter, wiser and more knowledgeable than you is not what makes me a superior sailing guru. Its the fact that I sail once in a while. lol. But I am glad that you still find things to chuckle at at your age!


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## kevlarpirate (Jul 17, 2006)

*Newport 41*

I have read your comments on the 41 and interestingly enough I have come across someone else in your area who gave some negative comments about this boat. Apparently at least a few that were delivered to the East coast have some issues and I don't doubt the information. I have owned a 1973 41 Newport for 20 years. I am an engineer with structural and materials background and a lot of hands on experience with fiberglass
metals and such. I am an ex SORC racer from the early seventies. I have sailed my 41 on both coasts , starting in the San Pedro Channel (LA) and also crossed the Straights of Florida to the Bahamas many times. Now the boat is back here in LA and again I sail the San Pedro Channel to Catalina Island often. Both of these areas can dish up some pretty tall seas and high winds. I have been very satisfied with the boats performance as a good sailing boat. I have sailed in 44kts VTW. I have made some modifications however. I replaced the rudder with an elliptical shape which controls the boat with finger touch ease and balance. I also have small side ports and a cockpit bridge deck like the Redline 41 had . When I bought this boat I went over it much more thoroughly than the surveyor and was very satisfied with the mast step compression distribution, shroud knees etc. Fit and finish were lacking in areas, however I was not concerned. The metal hardware was original C&C and very robust. As was the general glass lay-up. In all areas The glassing / resin was very good. 
The keel bolt nuts are resined over and have never showed signs of working I have never been easy on my boat and have worked to weather in 6+ foot seas. It takes 5+feet going up to start pounding, however I have never seen this "panting" even when feeling the sides while being below. I have never broken anything structural or have had only minor electrical problems due to some neglect. I have shipped her 2 times coast to coast and the last time the boat was tremendolsy over tightened to the trailer and showed no damage.
Prior to my onership my boat spent 1 day in the surf on a beach in Hawaii was dragged off by a cutter and sustained only a bent ruddershaft and was able to be sailed back to Ohahu for ship transport back to CA. I would highly recommend the 41 to anyone especially with my modifications. I also know of several other 41's in my area here and the owners love them for their lines and sailing and construction strengths. recently we had a round SantaBarbara race in nasty winds and a 41 was the only boat to finish. The only area lacking can be fit and finish, which of course can be bettered
Your general oppinions are just plain wrong. This may be tough for you to deal with , however to speak as you do for over 180 boats produced and their satisfied owners exposes you as an oppinionated and ignorant. Sorry


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## kevlarpirate (Jul 17, 2006)

*Newport 41*

The above post was specifically in response to Jeff H


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Ok, all of this ranting and raving over a boat I've never been on raised a question from myself to you EXPERTS. How can ya tell if the glass is screwed up on a boat? What are the steps to take in examining and signs to look for?


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## kevlarpirate (Jul 17, 2006)

*Here's a way*

Excellent question, The best way is to remove some inspect it and purposely break it. I have done distructive testing plenty, as I have made many modifications reflecting my personal needs, and in doing so have saber sawed, hole sawed, drilled, tapped etc. In doing so you will get a feel for the strength and if it is brittle, delaminated, resin rich or poor. I have bent and crushed samples in vises to yield the material. Another way (non destructive) is to find areas where it has not been painted (inner areas of the hull,) and see that the resin has just covered but not swamped the glass roving so that the glass strands can be seen and felt. This will give indications of the overall lay-up. The more places you can find the better. I have done countless. Also take a thru-hull valve and try to break it off with force. Try this on a race boat and you may see the hull flex too much for comfort. Have you gone to weather in a big chop and started pounding ( on one of these surfing hull types) and felt the hull quiver?? That wil definitely get your attention when you are 50 miles out!! I have listened to so-called experts (non technical types mostly) only to find out they have few real data points to substantiate a broad claim, or they have a bias. A friend once said about people: If someone were driving in a Ford or Dodge or Chevy and you ran over a bump and heard a rattle they would say "what a rattle trap&#8230; those #@%$ US cars. Now if that same person were in a Beamer or Benz and it rattled, they would say" wow that must have been a really big bump!! I find most highly opinionated people are biased. 
When Capital yachts made the Newport 41 they printed C&C in their brochure as the designers. That agreement between parties and was based on the boat being built to C&C spec. I do not disagree that there may have been exceptions, however I would say they were probably not that many. There is a lot to be said about design, construction, size and all. I have sailed long and fin keeled boats including canting keel twin foil. Boats in the ocean from 4 to 56000 lbs and I can tell you and all that size matters when you talk about comfort and tracking. I also own a 46 Ericson which weighs twice the 41 Newport and there is a very noticeable difference in behavior and fun and comfort. As I would expect between the Newport 41 and a Farr 38. I have never sailed a Farr 38 but I did a 
Farr 36 and it was a very painful experience in Open Ocean trying to go up in a big sea with the bow submarining and horrible weather helm. I was surprised it held together with its twiggy noodle mast! To Chris: he did the right thing to buy the biggest boat
of good performance you can and then take care of her!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Cool, we have a whole 'nother fight brewing here and I didn't start it for once! As for Farr's look at the Volvo...it was very tender in heavy weather and essentially got its butt kicked by a superior design. But that doesn't mean the Farr is not a good design. Remember, they are based in Annapolis so any design coming out of that shop would tend to favor lighter conditions. They are really fun boats to sail I can tell you that from personal experience.


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## 123snacks (Jul 18, 2006)

Hi, Chris!

My boyfriend and I live aboard our Tartan 34, and we're planning on cruising next year to the SP too! I'm 26 and he's 28, and it seems to me that we're at the other best stage in life to cruise-- when you're young, able, and still without kids, mortgages, etc to tie you to shore. Especially by living aboard and buying a fixer-upper outright, almost all of both our salaries can go right into the cruising kitty. I think if we were at the age that most cruisers seem to be, living in a "project boat" with no air conditioning, no fridge and a portipotti would be too uncomfortable, and cruising would be further delayed by getting a more expensive boat, paying off the subsequent loan, etc.

We're certainly not rich either, but I am cautiously optimistic that we'll be cruising by next year. You're not alone, and I think you have excellent timing!


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## kevlarpirate (Jul 17, 2006)

To Snacks and Chris. All the power to you, Do it! Things always work out, Life is good ! Check this site, he is a friend of mine
http://svpneuma.com/ I have been dreaming of SP since I was a kid and somehow I found myself with 2 boats, 4 cars and a million dollar house looking out at the ocean I want to live on! I did live on my Newport when I bought her; those were good years. Lucky we don't have kids and as soon as my dog croaks we will get serious! The cat is gone and the monitor lizard went to lizard heaven ONE to GO!!!
If you sail through LA give us a call, we welcome all cruisers!
To Surf&#8230; Amen & dittos


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## Newport41 (Jun 30, 2006)

Just got back from a fire. It's been a two week tour and all I wanna do is go for a sail but I'm heading out again in a day or two.

Jeff,
I can understand where you're coming from in pointing out the weaknesses of my boat. I appreciate the opinions. We've already talked about the resin pockets and the other problems in Newports. Liek I said before, mine's a later model and seems to have avoided these weaknesses. Between that and the modifications that she's already undergone and that I have planned I do have confidence in her. But, as you pointed out, being over confident in your boat adn not realizing it's or your own limitations does get people killed. As for myself, besides my experience I have always been a great problem solver. If nothing else I think this is what really defines a capable bluewater cruiser. As for my boat. I know what she was designed for. She's also been out in 50kts + and doesn;t behave like the "bargain basement racer" you say she is. With new mast step, chain plates, and rod rigging and the reinfrorcments to the steering I think she's tough enough. Now here's the part you may or may not agree with. These boats are a great value but even if I had a larger budget I wouldn't get anything different (maybe steel). Here's why. I'm not worried about strength. The fiberglass is primative but they made up for that by using lots of it. She is very stiff. The rig is now very strong. You said you've sailed on them so I find it hard to believe that you think they are uncontrollable on a wave face. If you were on one that couldn't be controlled in big rollers than it's your skipper no the boat cause this fairly green cruiser seems to be able to handle her and my monitor vane seems to be able to do it too. Now, let's consider other assets. Speed. She's fast, and in the Trades the tall rig is gonna be a life saver. I've always been of the shcool of thought that avoiding really heavy weather is the safest course of action. You can't run too far too fast in a lot of the heavy offshore boats out there. Having said that, she's no ultralight so she can handle a blow. I know her assets and her faults and they lined up with what I wanted and what I could live with. Practical Sailor Magazine has a good artical on Newports.

Kevlarpirate,
Thanks for saying your piece. I'm loving my Newport too. I still think it's an underappreciated boat, even if they aren;t designed for offshore.

Surfesq,
Yes, young people don't need a high comfort factor. We'll do without all sorts of stuff. And we'll eat fish and fruit for months.(I used to be a fishing guide) I'm finding it hard to estimate our costs because of this. If we don't need to head into a marina everytime we make landfall, and we're happy without all the comforts of home I can't see it costing what it does for a retired couple. Having said that I always budget higher than I think, then I raise it another 10%. That's the joy of cruising I guess.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Absolutely. Enjoy yourself and be careful fighting fires in the meantime. Check out that article I sent you a few comments back. It is a very good piece on sailing on a budget.


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## kevlarpirate (Jul 17, 2006)

*Glad you are back*

Chris,

The Newport 41 is plenty capable for offshore. I don't know why you don't think so 
other than perhaps some unqualified opinions.

1	The hull design has a very high static stability limit of 132 degrees with
a ratio of 7.5to 1 positive (upright) vs. negative (inverted) stability 
2 The hulls are solid hand lay-up roving mat combo with 2 layers of finishing cloth under the gel coat. The forward sections have balsa core in addition. I have been hauled many times and I have taken precise measurements when the boat is blocked, hanging in the slings and in the water to find only tiny deflections. 
I have also loosened the tie rod nut to see if the deck would rise when going to weather. which it did not. The force was not great enough to break the RTV in the mast partners..
I have also ran a tight wire bow to stern and measured the hull deflection on max backstay load of 3000. The deflection was 14mm. (pretty stiff hull) try this yourself.
3	The hull deck joint is epoxied together over a 3inch width and thru-bolted on 3 inch staggered centers. Bullet proof 
4	The mast step is of excellent design (although I have heard of some standing water caused failures). A complete ring band for the uppers. Chainplates are solidly bonded to the hull with thick roving -mat layers over an area of several square feet.
5 The hull is easily driven with good shear and forward freeboard
6 The Sparcraft mast is very strong and the spreaders are solidly bolted

Every N41 I have seen on the West Coast here appears to be the same as mine, however I have never inspected them inside, I can't imagine there is much difference. I was acquainted with a production supervisor after the company dissolved and received many favorable comments on the construction.

The boat has very nice manners in a sea. When going upwind it does not bury it's bow as newer fat transomed boats do. Therefore the forward deck will stay drier and less green water. 
A note on stability: Modern cruiser racers have taken lead out of the keel and made more buoyancy in the beam, especially aft. This is for enhancing downwind surfing ability. This is a bad thing for the offshore cruiser. In doing so the initial righting moment, say less than 30 degrees of heel, is greater and gives a sense of safety to the sailor. (stiffer boat)
The problem is that the righting moment drops off rapidly, crosses through zero early.
If caught in a really nasty sea, this is exactly what you don't want. An example of a very unsafe offshore design is a J-35 where the ultimate static stability is only 108 degrees and even worse the ratio of positive vs. neg stability is a very scary 1.5 to 1. The J-35 is stiffer initially than the Newport, but that stiffness disintegrates rapidly when heeled more. The J35 was designed in the late 80's well after the tragic Fastnet 1979 race taught us a lesson how not to design a boat for offshore use. In that race, no boat with over a 3.2 to 1 length to beam ratio was rolled. (N41= 3.7) I would guess Jeff's Farr 38 is as bad as a J35. In addition boats with noodle masts and less ballast have less dynamic stability (roll inertia) which increases the chance of a roll. These are some of the reasons I bought the Newport and was not lured into the new (foolish) thinking just to get a little adrenalin going down a wave. I also don't like pounding in a 2-foot chop to weather. And I also don't like the idea of rolling gunwale-to-gunwale and slapping wavelets at anchor, which is what these newer designs do.

The N41 does need some mods for offshore. 
1 rudder. New rudders are way better than old IOR designs. Mine, I could not be happier with
2	Port windows were cut to big. Better have a pretty good thickness of lexan over them Mine are small and have ½ inch thick and are opening
3	Cockpit drains are too small; my cockpit is smaller as the boat has a bridge deck so you have to step up before you go below. 
There may be some other things for instance my steering sheaves are really big and I don't know about others. I also have added vertical posts to hang on to below along with many extra hand rails and holds.

You are going in the right direction and if you want any pictures of the many things I have done I will send them to you. But in the meanwhile, beware of highly opinionated
people who are eager to give advise. As an example, our friend Jeff compares the N41 to a "superior" Bennateau 42. Which is berthed next to my Ericson so I have been onboard and the owner has many complaints including the spreaders breaking at their bases because of a single pin, which takes the entire load. You will not find design shortcuts on your Sparcraft. A last note; since I bought the Ericson 46, instead of selling the 41, I decided to keep her and ship her back to Florida to sail the Bahamas again and do the Miami to Nassau race which has been resurrected from the old SORC days. I did this because I trust this boat inside and out. I have too much technical background and experience to be told by some self-proclaimed expert otherwise. I hope this reverses any ill effects the intended browbeating Jeff gave you.


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## Newport41 (Jun 30, 2006)

If you think I'm saying she isn't capable of offshore work you're misunderstanding me. I picked that boat out of everything I looked at and as I said before there's very littel I would change regardless of my budget. I have expanded the cockpit drains, made her more water tight (mast boot, new ports, inspection covers over cockpit speakers, ect). I'm not sure about changing my rudder. I have a MKII so my rudder would be different than what was on your boat. I have no problems with what's there now but I'm curious if you have any pictures of yours. Thanks for bringing up the stability calculations. When Jeff first tore a strip of my boat that was one of the factors I brought up. I know she's fast, stable and stiff but I guess these boats have a reputation with some people.


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## kevlarpirate (Jul 17, 2006)

*Understood*

My comments also were in defence of the boat to other readers too. Every now and then I Google a "Newport 41" just to see what is giong on, and this time 
I came upon these posts, so I joined up to specifically negate the Jeff comments.
This is a worldwide post board and any potential smart boat buyer doing his due diligence will read as much as possible. When a potential buyer comes across a Jeff post he may believe it. and get a wrong impression based on nothing more than an anecdotal experience. 
I have a list of boats which I would never buy because of design or structural or both, but I would never have the arrogance to broadcast it offensively. I made note of a couple here just for substantiation. In the case of the J-35, real racers know these things and If they choose to buy the boat or similar designs they know the risks. In the case of breaking spreaders, good engineering is often compromised by profit needs, remember the space shuttle o-rings. 
Send a private message with email and i will send pics. From what you have said about your rudder i think you are fine. I have put in 100's of hours doing things to an already good boat. people think i'm nuts. Only do what is necessary and then if time and money allow, do more. Sail on


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I just want to weigh in and make it clear that I am not piling on Jeff. I enjoy reading the things that he writes and I think he is very knowledgeable about boats. I don't always agree with what he writes but I don't question his knowledge and passion. Everyone on this site whether they want to admit it or not is expressing an opinion. So I don't think he is being arrogant I just think he really believes in what he is writing. And by the way Kevlar Pirate...I thought you joined because of Fight Club! lol.


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## livin4x (3 mo ago)

kevlarpirate said:


> *Glad you are back*
> 
> Chris,
> 
> ...


Good evening, I’m looking at a 1981 Newport 41s, do you still have your Newport? I’d love to see pics of you rudder and port light mods.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

This thread has been dead for 16 years!!!! Replies are not likely kevlarpirate.


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## vbiz59 (3 mo ago)

Gentlemen, lots of bandying about on opinion. You know what they say,, everyone has one...
Personally I only object to the "Geezers" moniker )
I've been 21 for 63years now. Not much has changed other than the fact that I'm ready to head south from NY waters permanently now. And yes, my responsibilities are greatly diminished but that is all.
Currently caring for my 93yo father who taught me to sail, and I can tell you that life goes into reverse at a certain point. Soon we won't know how old we are ))
Get out and do it,,, If you're smart, you'll take your career with you. 
We geezers didn't have that opportunity...


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