# What did I do wrong?



## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

I thought I'd be sailing on my new Beneteau 381 this weekend w/ friends - instead the deal totally fell through & the way I found out was by seeing on the website the "sale pending" was off & it was back on the market.

I'm not quite sure what even happened? I offered 10% less than asking and they countered @ 5%. OK, NBD, it looked in good shape. I got a surveyor to check it out & for some reason we were late to the haul out so we were stuck for hours at the boatyard. He was only there for a portion of the sea trial, where we did a few tacks with the moldy jib. Wasn't sure why we didn't pull the main out until we dropped the surveyor off. I could not get the main out of the furling main system. The broker did, after a struggle, and pulled out a ripped 15 year old main. 

The surveyor value came in at a few thousand less than my original offer & I was told they would fix the refrigeration, toilet, and the furling system & patch up the main. I started pricing things out, since everything is still original on the boat & there were no upgrades I had to replace the rusty, coated lifelines immediately & found out 15 years for a furling main is above and beyond the lifespan. I called around and got some estimates for what I knew I needed to replace that the sellers were unwilling to (lifelines & main, I was just going to clean the moldy jib).

With my info, I gave them my offer of going back to my original price ($3k over the survey value), they would take care of the fridge, toilet & furling & I would deal w/ the rest. That's when I got no answer & it went back on the market. 

I checked what this year & model of boat are selling/asking for, around $85k. The surveyor value was $95k & my offer was $98k. 

So I guess my question is, what the hell happened??


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

You got lucky????


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> You got lucky????


Agreed.
Also, it sounds like you did not have their signature on an accepted offer, "subject to survey". I do not see how the broker could remove it from the selling process while the sale is progressing.

So are you out the $$ cost of the haul out and survey? 
Bummer.


LB


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Honestly it sounds like you dodged a bullet. That's a lot of defered maintenance and overlooked systems. So I would have guessed anything that was working was running on borrowed time.


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

They did sign the "subject to survey." They just didn't agree to my price after it was valued for $10k less than the 5% off deal. I never found that out though until after I saw it on the website. 

Yeah, I'm out the $1,000 for the survey & haul.

The worst part of this is that I sent a note to the Prez of the brokerage saying how unprofessional that was that I wasn't even told and she never replied either. I would think she'd be mortified about that, they must do business like that from the top down? 

I just posted on here because I wasn't sure if I inadvertently did something in the process that screwed things up. I wasn't going to pay $10k more than what the survey price said, I said I'd pay $3k more. 

IDK, this boat buying business is not for me. I'm in a club now, I'm BBC certified. I'm just bummed because I had everything set up w/ the dock, the loan, estimates for the sail & lifelines. I was totally ready to go


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Name'n'shame


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

It doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. You just ran into an unreasonable boat owner. But the brokerage should have contacted you. Usually they will do almost anything to keep a deal on track.


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## PaThomas123 (Mar 29, 2011)

at that price point if your only out about 1% of the value and your time I think you like the others have said got lucky you will have spent far more that the $1000 on the hidden stuff the the surveyor missed by leaving early? or whatever I am of the opinion that in sailing there is no set timetable
and he should understand that. You might have had to pay more for his time but the job should be completed.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

You can look at it as you're out $1,000. Or you can look at it as you avoided spending tens of thousands more than you should have. I would look at it in the latter way.

Maybe you are right, and boat buying is not for you. It certainly is not for everyone. But this is how it works. In many ways it is not unlike buying a house. I once was all set to buy a house. We negotiated a price. We had financing arranged. We scheduled an inspection. That's when we found out there was a mold problem (which the seller claimed he didn't know about, but I don't believe that). The seller would not come down on the price enough to make it worth it, so we walked away. We were out a lot of time and money. It was frustrating. Not anywhere NEAR as frustrating, though, as buying the house and then paying thousands upon thousands more to fix the mold problems.

As others said, you got lucky. You dodged a bullet. You didn't do anything wrong. This is just the way it goes sometimes. That is why you always make a purchase like this "subject to survey and sea trial." In this case your survey and sea trial turned out to be well worth the time and money. You saved far more than it would have cost if you had bought the boat without finding out these things. You did good.

Good luck in the future, whether you decide to go forward with buying a boat or not.

Oh yeah... One other thing (well, two, actually). I would try to avoid ever dealing with that surveyor, or that broker, again.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

If you are dead-set on that boat, the owner realize s/he is overpriced with all the things that need to be done. It may take the rest of the summer, however. There are lots of great boats out there, keep looking. BTW, it could save money to do just the on-land survey before committing to the sea trial.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

I think you got lucky! Sounds to me like it wasn't a very well maintained boat. No telling what else WOULD have popped up after you bought it.
Add in owners who have overvalued a boat in that condition....


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

I really appreciate all your comments, I'm a female sailor/buyer trying to buy a boat & wanted to make sure I wasn't off track on this deal & somehow the difficult buyer. 

The surveyor was actually great, he was kind of booted off by the broker for the main sail (not) coming out. I called him & told him about the fiasco. 

Not bummed about the $$ I spent on the survey at all, it really did save me money. I wasn't going to pay more than my original offer (& a very generous one at that). It occurred to me the sellers might be difficult. The boat is actually in great shape, mostly because it seems as if it's hardly been used in the last 15 years. When I first got on & sat in one of the princess seats, it broke right away. It's just been sitting there, rusting. 

I even said that if they can't get the price they want, I'd still take it @ my offer. The way they've treated me though, I'm done w/ this brokerage altogether.


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## PaThomas123 (Mar 29, 2011)

The broker works for the seller not you his only interest is to get the most money he can for the boat. also a unused boat sometimes is much worse than a well used boat as in if it is unused it is not being maintained
I am of the opinion the job of the buyer is to offer a price that you are willing to pay nothing fair about it just what you think its worth not what the seller thinks. of course your offer can be turned down and so be it. you do not have to be generous at all just offer what you believe the real value to you that is it


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

I would be prepared for a thoughtful response to them coming back with a counter offer or accepting yours. I would say it is likely.


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## stpabr (Dec 20, 2008)

Get yourself a Buyer's Broker. The Buyer's broker will stand up for you. The Seller's broker is for the seller and will do what they can for the seller, not you. It will not cost you any more $$, since the seller pays the fee from the sale and the two brokers split it, but your interest are covered.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I agree with what other's have said about being lucky the deal went bust since you probably only saw the tip of the iceberg in terms of problems.

As to why the seller pulled out, it is always hard to read a person's mind, but here are my thoughts on what happened. First of all some sellers have a floor below which they can't sell their boat. It may be that the owner has a loan on the boat equal to the price that he accepted. He may have assumed that you had inspected the sails before the sea-trial and that the sticking mainsail furler and torn mainsail was 'already baked into the deal'. If as you say the lifelines were visibly shot, the cost of new lifelines should have already been considered in your offer rather than something that you 'discovered during survey' and so would be irrelevant to the seller. Other factors may have been the accumulated cost of fixing the refrigeration, toilet, and the furling system & patching the main, which turned out to be too much after dropping the negotiated price by another 5%. It may simply be that he has the slip/dry storage paid for the season already, its the beginning of a new sailing season, if he is going to spend the money to fix these items, he decided that he has little to lose by not selling to you.

With all due respects, I must say that parts of your story strike me as unusual. What is very odd about your description of the broker not notifying you that the deal fell through is that almost all purchases through a broker requires submitting a 'good faith' deposit along with your offer paperwork. Almost all standard purchase agreements require you to accept or reject the boat within a specified number of days of the survey, after which that deposit is forfeited if the deal does not close. 

If we assume that your post survey counter offer, was viewed as a rejection, then the owner was under no obligation to accept your counter offer, and the broker should have returned your deposit, which in effect would have been notification that the seller rejected your counter offer. Similarly, most bro

In a nutshell, if you did not have a deposit, as a seller I probably would have rejected your original offer, but definitely would have rejected your post survey counter offer. If you did post a deposit, I would have expected the broker to return it once the deal did not go through, or at least contacted you to ask about rejecting the boat so that the check could be returned. 

But anyway, those are my thoughts,
Jeff


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## PaThomas123 (Mar 29, 2011)

Also if the broker kicked my surveyor off the boat i would cancel the deal immediately and use "Failure to allow for timely inspection" to void the contract you should win all day long in court. Not knowing all the details i find it strange that the broker would stop the survey unless he was discovering "to much stuff" you will find the right boat and love it
Good luck and fair winds


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

This broker was supposed to me on MY side, but of course it's all the seller's side. I didn't lowball, I just took the information I researched and the survey results and determined from there.

I did put down a 10% deposit that they're sending back to me. What determined my decision was the way the sea trial went, the lack of upgrades, and the price these boats are actually selling for. I told my broker I picked a price that I didn't feel I could sell it for a few weeks from now. It was high, I could live w/ it though. I couldn't live w/ the $105k w/ all the repairs. I used one of those blue book type calculators online to find out that in top shape, the boat is worth $95k. Of course, it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it & I live near the Silicon valley. Someone might snatch it up & not really care about the $$. 

What bums me out the most is that I was the last to know, I didn't know if that was common?

All in all, not bad problems to have....


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Seems to me this is mostly a communication (or miscommunication?) issue.

Being out the survey fee on a deal that goes south is just the way it is, and usually 'money well wasted'. However I don't see any excuse for you not to have been properly notified that the deal was off, and your deposit returned with that notification.

Plenty of boats out there, esp common boats like that one - time to move on. Once you're through the pain of 'buying', you can settle into the pain of 'owning'...


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Heller Gregory said:


> This broker was supposed to me on MY side, but of course it's all the seller's side. I didn't lowball, I just took the information I researched and the survey results and determined from there.
> 
> I did put down a 10% deposit that they're sending back to me. What determined my decision was the way the sea trial went, the lack of upgrades, and the price these boats are actually selling for. I told my broker I picked a price that I didn't feel I could sell it for a few weeks from now. It was high, I could live w/ it though. I couldn't live w/ the $105k w/ all the repairs. I used one of those blue book type calculators online to find out that in top shape, the boat is worth $95k. Of course, it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it & I live near the Silicon valley. Someone might snatch it up & not really care about the $$.
> 
> ...


No brokers are on your side. They are salesman, that is what they do. You can "hire" a broker on commission, but, that's like bringing another car salesman into the mix. If you are flush with cash and want someone to do some of the legwork then it's not such bad idea, so, then pay them yourself. Time is money, sometimes it's cheaper to pay someone else.. However, I will repeat, a "broker" as we are defining it here, works for the person who pays them and in the end that is the seller (no one likes to hear that, but it's true).

A lawyer might be on your side and it's not a bad thing to spend a few bucks on if you are spending 80K. There are cheaper condos and smart people pay a lawyer for real estate closings.

It's always a good idea to not let emotions get in your way when buying or selling, however, it happens to the best of us. It sounds like that is what happened to the seller.

As the surveyor picks apart the boat, finding more and more wrong with it, the owner was probably pulling his hair out. I've seen brokers get angry at surveyors as the deal starts to look worse and worse, the commission goes out the window.

"Blue Book" values are what the bank is willing to lend you for a boat. Often times that value is a slap in the face for the owner. My boat, a C&C 30 1988 has an average sales price of 29K. Now go look at the "asking prices" for this boat on yacht world. No bank is going to loan you much more than 30K without a lot of documentation, and even then, it's doubtful at a reasonable interest rate.

Keep searching and if you really want the boat, make them another offer in a couple of months. I'd go lower than your previous offer and work up.

Home inspections can blow a deal in the same way. The seller has been negotiated down to below that bottom line he had in his head when he put it on the market and then the home inspections shows just one more thing...bam...that mental fuse blows and the seller walks away.


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

Yeah, I liked it a lot but didn't put too much of my emotions into it. I was being super practical & fair, being my own advocate & working around the broker's sales pitches that it was "all good." And it was, until the sea trial w/out the surveyor, then I was on my own trying to determine the reality of the situation (I couldn't haul out the torn, moldy sails). 

You're all right, I dodged a bullet. 

I for sure wasn't willing to pay what they wanted after that! Oh, and the lifelines were coated, it wasn't visible what condition they might be in, just that they were original & needed replacing ASAP.

I don't know about bringing a lawyer w/ me, maybe just a man?? haha


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## PaThomas123 (Mar 29, 2011)

you don't need a man just a book lol
https://www.amazon.com/Inspecting-S... a sailboat&qid=1464976902&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Knowledge is power! Thing is.. they don't expect a lady to know things, so they (not saying only men) try to get over or intimidate sometimes in jest sometimes with intent. But; when she does have the knowledge.... then things go very much in her favor. I've done ok in this area.. but in others... I'm a doormat LOL 

That boat was an embarrassment and they really thought you would bite is my take on it. A lazy do nothing owner.. a broker that had no facts or knowledge of the boat. they were hoping to unload to someone without the knowledge of knowing how bad it was.


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## rckfd (Dec 3, 2015)

Heller Gregory said:


> I really appreciate all your comments, I'm a female sailor/buyer trying to buy a boat & wanted to make sure I wasn't off track on this deal & somehow the difficult buyer.
> 
> The surveyor was actually great, he was kind of booted off by the broker for the main sail (not) coming out. I called him & told him about the fiasco.
> 
> ...


"Lovingly neglected" thats what a surveyor friend of mine calls it. Best kind of boat, all you have to do is update it. Nothing worse than trying to undo someone's "I've got a better idea" in some of the boats I've seen.
Is the broker holding any your money? If so get it back, go get it back tell them your original offer stands after you get your money back and wait a day or 2. Then move on...


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

FWIW, I meant a lawyer for all the legal/paperwork.


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

They're sending my deposit back, I haven't checked the mail yet today. 

"Lovingly neglected" would be the right phrase, I wouldn't say it was totally neglected. I don't want you all to have the impression that I don't like the boat & am floored @ what they're charging, not at all. The boat was in really decent shape & gorgeous!!

I just couldn't bite the bullet on their price knowing I'd have to buy sails & lifelines right away too. The price they wanted, with me buying the additional items & equipment it's starting to get into the price range of me just buying a new boat w/ a warranty. 

I did tell my broker that if they can't sell it for what they want, let me know. I was just super irked by seeing it on the website.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Heller Gregory said:


> .....I was just *super irked* by seeing it on the website.


.. that should be its own word.... 'Supirked'  Perfect!


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

There are numerous stories like this all over this site. 

I'm a believer in vetting who I deal with, including the broker and the seller. There are brokers (not all, but many) in my neighborhood who are in it for a long term relationship with buyers and sellers. Most people who are crazy enough to buy a boat, aren't just one and done, and the sailing community so small and close, that if anyone acts up, buyer, broker, seller, everyone knows about it. The scuttlebutt isn't hard to tap.

IMHO going forward, find a broker with a good reputation who represents boats that you like in your area, and work with them. I know, I know, the contract says they don't represent the buyer, but, in this small world the good ones understand that their reputation is all they've got, and you will be back (I know, this is your last boat, trust me it isn't).

That broker will steer you towards good boats, that are well taken care of. I'm not on the page that boats that sit still are well taken care of. They maybe cosmetically nice, but typically the stuff that matters is broken. IMHO buy a boat that is heavily used regularly by a knowledgeable owner who is proud of their boat. Get to know the owner. If you don't like the owner, you won't like the boat. 

Trust but verify. Even with the best broker, and a good seller there can be surprises, so survey anything you buy. And don't forget to check the reputation of the surveyor. 

This whole process is supposed to be fun. No one needs a sailboat, although most of us would much rather have one than not! If it isn't fun, then you are dealing with the wrong people.

Best of luck, and hope you find the boat of your dreams soon.


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

That's funny Faster  

The prez of the brokerage got back to me & was horrified. She just needed to check & see what exactly happened before getting back to me, that's what the delay was. 

That's why I don't want to "name & blame" (although I like that, never heard that one before!) 

They're sending over my last offer for me to sign (holding firm, I think it's a REALLY fair offer - even if the sellers don't approve). They all kind of skipped this last step, this will just make it official & I'll get my deposit back.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

....but your deposite was already mailed.... Now you need to sign something before the mailman can stop the truck?


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

They have to officially reject my offer before I get my deposit back I guess. That seems like what should have happened in the first place & I think it's all back on track. 

I signed the counter offer, still w/ the same terms & price that it sounds like the sellers didn't agree with the other day. I'm not going to change it though - I actually still think it's still high, but I'll be OK w/ it. 

They have until Monday to decline my counter offer. Either way, I'm glad the brokerage acknowledged this should have gone down this way in the first place. It totally confused me that they could just yank it w/out getting back to me. 

I'm good either way.


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## WheresTheBrakes (Sep 29, 2008)

FWIW - if they would have had sent the counter offer back to me, I would have lowered the offer another 10k. That would have provided some theatrics.. a "mental anguish" discount of sorts. 

I'll bet $5 the broker tells the seller they're crazy, and your overly generous asking price is accepted


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Obviously, we haven't read your contract that could detail different process. However, by process of law, the moment you sent the counter offer, you voided your initial agreement. It doesn't matter whether the seller accepts or rejects it, the deal is off. While the seller/broker was inconsiderate, they had the right to re-list the boat, since you officially rejected it. Again, there is usually a clearer way this is communicated, then how it happened to you.

Until your new offer is accepted, you have no agreement and your deposit should be on it's way back. On the other hand, it would be common for the broker to be holding the good faith deposit, so they may be trying to patch a deal together and holding onto it for convenience. If you're okay with that, so be it. For what it's worth, when I've rejected a deal, I've received my original uncashed check back. That always made me feel pretty good about the broker.

I suspect you are about to buy a boat, as you sound like you're being very reasonable. Good luck.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

RobGallagher said:


> A lawyer might be on your side and it's not a bad thing to spend a few bucks on if you are spending 80K. There are cheaper condos and smart people pay a lawyer for real estate closings.


I would suggest that smart people use the settlement division of a title company. Same paperwork (it is all standardized in every state I have bought or sold real estate in) at much lower price.

In this case I see a bunch of people who have not communicated very effectively.


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

We'll see what happens, this new contract says they can accept other offers until Monday & then they have to send my deposit back. My check was actually cashed right away, they have the $$. 

I guess I could have lowered it even more, I do like the boat though. There's just a price where they're laughing all the way to the bank & the price you're willing to pay - or walk. It is still high, I can live w/ it though. 

I've bought houses & cars, first time buying a boat. That seems right, my counter voided the contract - I hadn't thought of that. 

I'm happy with whatever the result is, the brokerage apologized & said it was a gross miscommunication too. 

For right now, I'm good. If nothing else, I've learned a ton!!!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Really.. you should let this one go. there are thousands of boats out there and it is a buyer's market. where you located?


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

I'm in the SF Bay area. By the extreme reaction from the sellers for my counter, I can't imagine this going through. 

Because of the miscommunication apology, and the fact my sailing club has used this brokerage for quite a few of their newer boats (privately owned), I'll give them the benefit of the doubt about how this went down. 

Plus, the boat is great & I put a lot of time & research into it. Choosing my battles with this one. If it doesn't go through, I'll take a little search break. I've been eyeing boats for years & getting all my certifications, this is the first one I've put in an offer for.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Heller Gregory said:


> My check was actually cashed right away, they have the $$.


That's unsettling. Brokers almost always just keep the uncashed deposit check in the file and return it if the deal falls through. It's like a deposit in a real estate transaction that's held in escrow.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

JimsCAL said:


> That's unsettling. Brokers almost always just keep the uncashed deposit check in the file and return it if the deal falls through. It's like a deposit in a real estate transaction that's held in escrow.


Whether or not the check is cashed seems to depend on the state. What I have seen in Maryland is that the check is almost always been cashed. I have been told by the broker is that the broker is legally required to have a escrow account and to escrow the deposit so that the funds are available in the case of a default by the buyer.

I only came across this on two occasions so I cannot tell whether this was brokers making excuses or the actual case and have no idea how universal this is in other states.

Jeff


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JimsCAL said:


> That's unsettling. Brokers almost always just keep the uncashed deposit check in the file and return it if the deal falls through. It's like a deposit in a real estate transaction that's held in escrow.


The broker probably deposited the check into an escrow account. This is a PITA for the broker but it protects everyone. It shows the seller that the buyer's check is good. It protects the buyer from commingling funds. It provides the broker with leverage in working with finance companies on behalf of the buyer and with closing agents (if the broker doesn't have their own) for the seller.


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

I'm in CA, it's in an escrow account. I'm not too worried about it, it's a pretty well known brokerage here and I wouldn't expect them to just keep the check and not see if there's funds behind it. 

What probably messed this up is that I didn't stick to my original offer right off the bat or walk, I waited for the survey report to re-negotiate. Honestly, if the main would have unfurled like butter (or close to it) and the sails weren't ripped I'd be sailing this weekend & this would have been a done deal. 

It's been awhile since I bought a house & am rusty on the process. 

Haven't heard anything back. It's back for sale for other offers now and they need to give me a yay or nay by tomorrow.


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

I wasn't able to check the mail yesterday, in bed sick w/ a nasty ear infection. They did send my deposit back, what I think happened was to make this all legal they needed a signed counter offer to void it & they must have mailed the check after that. 

Sounds like a done deal...


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Heller Gregory said:


> I'm in CA, it's in an escrow account. I'm not too worried about it, it's a pretty well known brokerage here and I wouldn't expect them to just keep the check and not see if there's funds behind it.
> 
> What probably messed this up is that I didn't stick to my original offer right off the bat or walk, I waited for the survey report to re-negotiate. Honestly, if the main would have unfurled like butter (or close to it) and the sails weren't ripped I'd be sailing this weekend & this would have been a done deal.
> 
> ...


You can't be expected to know the proper procedures if you don't do this on a regular basis. Generally it is normal for the sales contract to specify a length of time to accept or reject the deal based on the survey. The contract generally says you need to accept or reject in writing and absent a written rejection it is assumed that you accepted the boat.

When you reject a boat based on the survey, some contracts require that you name the basis, and others allow you to reject without stating a reason. In either case you need to specifically reject the deal.

If you wish to renegotiate based on the survey results, it is considered good form to list the defects discovered during survey and your new offer. But that needs to be in addition to a rejection of the boat based on the survey.

Normally a broker will prompt you to send in the written rejection on time. But also once you reject the boat, even if you have made a counter offer based on the survey, the seller can insist that the boat be shown as still being for sale.

This may be a negotiating ploy but from the viewpoint of the seller it makes no sense to have the boat off the market if there isn't a contract in place.

Jeff


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

Oh! It looks like the only thing that didn't happen was the written rejection before they put it back up. That actually may be due to working w/ a new broker, who might not know procedure either. 

The status right now is, on Friday I signed a rejection of price based on survey w/ a counter offer good until tomorrow. They sent the check back though, so I'm wondering if that was just a formality? 

I really don't think I was being unreasonable about the price @ all. It's OK though, I don't think it had been on the market very long when I put my offer in. They have an idea about what was on the survey & the value.


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

Hi Heller,

For me either price is far too high, this is a 15 year old boat, neglected and in need of several up-dates. Sails are probably the most expensive; from your texts it looks both have to be replaced (cost ~10 k). There are other B381 in the area ( = ca), all can't be neglected.
In today's boat market it is unusual that one gets the asking price, that is just what the seller wants. Reasonable to have a margin of 10-20%, in which range you have made an offer.

I myself would be worried of a Westerbeke engine with only 150 hours over 15 years. Then I have never really liked the Westerbekes (in the ad it says firstly Yanmar and then Westerbeke ... Yanmar I trust. Picture looks like a Westerbeke).

The boat seem to have been hauled recently, through-hulls renewed - that's good. When was the mast unstepped last time ... 15 years in that climate, probably time to renew all standing rigging (OK; not very expensive, expect 3-5 k), and running rigging (easy). 

Then I do get the impression from your text that you really want this boat. Is it just impossible to have a serious negotiation with the broker? You are seriously interested, the broker wants to sell, you have made some good offers ... 

Think you said on one of your posts that you had /have?) everything lined up, inclusive slip. What annual budget do you expect, and how does the difference in price compare with that?
(usually is more expensive to have a boat than to buy it ...)

ATB

J


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

Hi,

It is a Westerbeke w/ 450 hours, don't know why it says a different engine w/ 150 hours? 

Not sure what my annual budget is for this? I'm being realistic though, I'm thinking of it as almost a 2nd home...a nice weekend retreat & eventually sail it to SoCal to take care of my mom & have a retreat down there. I'm the sailor, most of my friends & family are not, so the furling in the main appealed to me because it's a lot easier to reef. 

I do realize I have to replace the sails, which is why I went back to my original offer. The word I got back was they could repair the sails for a few hundred. They're the original sails, it's just not worth repairing. 

They did a haul out to re-paint the bottom not too long ago. I had it hauled out for the inspection last week. 

My thoughts on this is if I'm going to pay top dollar, and put more $$ in for sails, etc. & the price starts getting close to a new boat w/ a warranty - I might as well just get a new boat!

Plus I don't want to sail away & name my boat "sucker." I'm kidding, but there's definitely a price where you're paying WAY too much. Even the $98k is more than generous IMHO. I do like the boat though.

I'll find out today...


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

What an interesting experience this has been - they never got back to me. My counter offer expired @ 5pm my CA time today & I called my broker, who then called their broker, who told me to wait another day because he hadn't heard. 

So done w/ this. I keep giving everyone the benefit of the doubt here & I really just need to move on...


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

Heller Gregory said:


> What an interesting experience this has been - they never got back to me. My counter offer expired @ 5pm my CA time today & I called my broker, who then called their broker, who told me to wait another day because he hadn't heard.
> 
> So done w/ this. I keep giving everyone the benefit of the doubt here & I really just need to move on...


If the owner and brokers act in this way during the actual sale process, how will they act if anything goes wrong after the sale?

Just for that reason you should reconsider the benefit of doubt.

/J


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Jaramaz said:


> If the owner and brokers act in this way during the actual sale process, how will they act if anything goes wrong after the sale?
> 
> Just for that reason you should reconsider the benefit of doubt.
> 
> /J


This is one of the best points made in this thread. Six or seven years later, I'm still in touch with the original owner of my boat. He's been a huge help understanding old work that's been done, whether certain systems were original, etc.

Add to that, there is plenty that can go wrong, just trying to close the sale and arrange delivery. You need two parties, each trying get the deal done. I would move on to one of the 30,000 other sailboats that yachtworld lists for sale. Yes, I was browsing this morning......


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Heller Gregory said:


> ...I really just need to move on...


Yes, you really do.

Sometimes, when you think that you have found "the one," it can be hard to accept that it is not going to work out and that you need to put it behind you. This is why I always tell people not to fall in love with a boat until AFTER they own it. Before that, it is just another business deal, and you have to be completely prepared to walk away at any time.

Good luck.


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

Thanks all - this has been a real eye opening experience. I thought I was just being smart & cautious, I should have stopped after my surveyor got booted for the sea trial.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Heller Gregory said:


> With my info, *I gave them my offer of going back to my original price* ($3k over the survey value), they would take care of the fridge, toilet & furling & I would deal w/ the rest. That's when I got no answer & it went back on the market.
> 
> So I guess my question is, what the hell happened??


You gave them an offer and they rejected it. They are under no obligation to do more. Am I missing something??

Remember that at no time do you enter into a good-faith deal where you have right of first refusal. Once you submit an offer (or re-submit) they can refuse and you're done.

People (everyone) is looking for a quick clean sale. Do a survey for sure, but make a go/no-decision based on that. 'you fix that, I'll deduct and do that' gets messy and I'm not surprised they might bail out. The comms could have been a lot better however!


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Jaramaz said:


> If the owner and brokers act in this way during the actual sale process,* how will they act if anything goes wrong after the sale?*
> 
> Just for that reason you should reconsider the benefit of doubt.
> 
> /J


After the sale its not their boat, or their problem.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jackdaw said:


> After the sale its not their boat, or their problem.


That's technically true, but having a cooperative prior owner is a significant value. Of course, there is no legal obligation on a prior owners part to answer questions, but we all discover things down the road and understanding what the prior owner did or experienced can make a huge diagnostic difference.

Always try to buy from a good owner, not an a-hole.


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

Chalk it up to a newbie buyer not knowing the process... I do now!!

I see where I didn't know how this was supposed to go down, which is why I was OK w/ everything after I started posting here & then put in a counter offer. The listing was actually put back on before I had made any decision in writing, while I was waiting for the survey results. 

The survey value was $95k, (highest end for these boats). Not sure if I would have done anything different on my end of things? 

Is it common for a boat to sell for $10k more than the survey value? 

My only beef now is that their broker wants me to wait another day for their response. The sellers have stonewalled me twice, I have their answer. 

I don't think I'm cut out for this boat buying business!!


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## Jd1 (Aug 16, 2011)

Heller Gregory said:


> My only beef now is that their broker wants me to wait another day for their response. The sellers have stonewalled me twice, I have their answer.


Who cares what the broker wants .... you had a time limit on your counter which has expired. Anything that the sellers come up with is a new deal, nothing from before applies.
If the seller decides to be so gracious as to accept your offer (sarcasm !!!!), I would suggest sitting on it for a few days past their deadline and replying with a counter that is 5k lower. Sure they will be steaming but a) they will learn a good lesson and b) they will more than likely accept it later in the season when they realize how hard it is to find a buyer.

Personally, from al that you wrote, you dodged a bullet by having the seller reject the counter.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

While I understand that I may be alone here, I don’t understand many of the opinions being expressed here, and more to the point, the hostility towards the seller. It is not like the seller is being deceitful, just slow to accept what the buyer is offering. To me, boat buying is simply a business deal; all of it is a negotiation and negotiations do not always go smoothly. 

Then again, maybe this is just me since I negotiated on my house for nearly two years and negotiated on a boat for nearly 4 months before we came to a final agreement. 

In the boat deal, the seller started out with an asking price that was substantially beyond what I thought the boat was worth. The boat was out of the area and the listing broker was in a third location. I worked through a local broker, so sight unseen other than photos, I put down a deposit and made a low side of what I thought was a fair offer. We negotiated back and forth for a while to a price we both could live with. 

Just when I thought the deal was done, the listing broker realized that I lived in Annapolis and I might detect the boat’s history since she had been in a famous collision in Annapolis, and so let the boat’s previous name casually slip out as a way of ‘disclosing’ the collision.

I then rejected the boat based on the collision. The listing broker threatened that they would keep my deposit if I did not go to survey. I countered that I would have a friend appear the next day to confirm the prior damage as my survey and reject the boat based on that, and that also as an aside, pointed out that the Broker was in violation of his state’s broker license law in that he failed to disclose material information that he was aware of. They backed down and agreed to refund my deposit. 

In the meantime, I researched the damage and the repair, with the shop that made the repairs here in Annapolis. I knew the owner and a former employee, who told me that the damage wasn’t as bad as I originally thought. They described the repair in detail and I concluded that the repair was first rate. 

I then decided to proceed with a new offer but at a lower price. So again, we were negotiating, this time verbally, and I told them to hold the deposit check until we saw where the all of the shoes fell. We eventually reached agreement verbally, I signed new forms, they were sent to the buyer, and then things went silent. 

Weeks later they returned my broker’s call and said some guy from California decided to buy the boat for the full asking price, sight unseen, but subject to inspection and survey. So I figured the deal was dead. 

But a week later, just before my check was sent back, they called again and said that the buyer from California flew out, took one look at the boat, and decided that her condition did not precisely fit the description or photos in the listing and bailed out of the deal. They wanted to accept my last offer if it was still on the table, but they gave me a series of very short deadlines to name a surveyor, do the survey, accept the survey, and get the boat out of where she was sitting. I accepted that deal and we were off to the races again. 

A few days later I called the listing broker with the name of the surveyor. I told him the name and there was an audible gulp on the phone. The listing broker said, “You know that particular surveyor has surveyed that boat before. You might want to call him.” So I did.

The conversation went like this: 
Me: ”I understand that you surveyed this boat before.”

Surveyor; “Yes I did, I was going to call you.” 

Me: “I understand that this boat had a bad collision. Could you see the damage when you did the survey?” 

Surveyor: “Of course the boat hit a rock ledge at over 8 knots…” 

Me: “I think that you might be thinking of a different boat. This boat T-boned another boat in Annapolis Harbor.”

Surveyor: “Oh really, she did that too? Huh?...... I could not see that repair.”

So again I rejected the boat one more time. This time they did not bother to threaten to keep my deposit. But the surveyor gave me the name of the repair yard and sent pictures of the damage and repair process. I spoke to the repair yard who described in detail the repair material and methods, and sent more pictures of the repair process.

And so once again, I was reassured that the repairs were about as good as they could be, as the repair yard said, “Better than she was built to begin with”. And once again negotiations started. After a couple backs and forths, the owner accepted a lower price with the condition that I could do a survey, but after the survey I could only either reject the boat or accept it, but under no circumstances there would be no further adjustment in price no matter what was discovered. We also extended the deadlines by only a week even though we had negotiated for several weeks. 

The rest was history….bought the boat, brought her home, sailed the daylights out of her. The boat turned out to be exactly what I wanted her to be and more. I owned her for 15 years and to this day have no regrets or ill-will towards the seller. (I do not harbor similar feelings towards the listing broker, but that’s fine since he lives half a dozen or more states away, and I have no plans to buy a boat that he has listed any time soon.)

As far as the surveyor’s estimated value, with all due respect to the surveyors in this forum and my friends who are surveyors, they are next to worthless in really knowing with any precision the proper value of any individual boat, in any individual location, at any individual moment in time, to any individual buyer. In reality, they are best guesses based on ‘blue books’ and the like. And are generally skewed to be a value that an insurance company and loan company will accept as believable. And while these guesstimates are likely to be closer on a mass production boat like a Beneteau than on the limited production boats that I tend to buy, they are still best guesses, and should only be seen as a very loose indication of what the boat is worth. I have had surveyors value boats of mine at nearly 50% over what I paid and nearly half of what I paid, and neither reflected what I sold those boats for.

And while most owners set the price of the boat based on being able to negotiate down a maybe 10-20%, that is not always the case. In my own case, I have set asking prices that I considered to be close to be a fair selling price, and already baked-in most of the discount off an inflated asking price and frankly have gotten my price or close to it in most of those cases. The one exception was actually bid up over my asking price, but that is another story for another day.

In any event, you are buying a boat and not its previous owner or the brokers involved. Only you know how badly you want that boat and what she is worth to you. If you only plan to own her a very short while, then fight for every penny. But if you plan to own the boat for a long while, 5% one way or another does not mean much over the length of time that you own the boat. 

Jeff


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

Thanks for telling me your experience. I'm not here to bash the seller or the broker, I'm just really confused about the process & I'm a woman buyer. I txt'd a friend something totally crude (because I am a sailor, after all) & she said, "you'd be @ the helm right now." 

That is something I really thought about though, the long term ownership of the boat & the price I was willing to pay. If it weren't for the condition of the sails, I would have sucked it up @ the $105k knowing it was too high. My last offer didn't include sail repair because I'd just replace them anyway. 

I still think my last offer was high & I wouldn't be able to turn around & sell it for that, I was OK w/ that though. I know what you mean, I seriously thought about that before I decided what i should do.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

This has become a pretty interesting thread.

One other thing that might factor. Most sellers get really turned off by a revised offer based on the results of a survey. In particular for things that are obvious and they sailed with.

Every big boat I've bought has had an 'official' survey, mostly for insurance purposes. But before we got to that point I'd gone over every detail of the boat, and found everything the surveyor found. My offers stood after the survey and the deals went through. To a certain degree sellers expect that; and want to hold you to that original number. Therefore I want that document to confirm my findings, or tell me something that makes me walk away. Things like the condition of the sails. the fridge working, etc should be factored into your *original* offer. I know the OP is kinda new to the game, and that's harder. But maybe find an experienced sailing friend to look a boat over with you, and make a solid offer based on what you see.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Heller Gregory said:


> Is it common for a boat to sell for $10k more than the survey value?


Some boats sell for much more. Some boats sell for much less. Don't give too much credit to the survey value. It doesn't really mean anything. It is one persons wild guess what the boat might be worth. It is rarely derived from any really in-depth investigation of the market for that particular type of boat, in that particular condition, for sale in that particular location.

Come to your own conclusion what you are willing to pay for the boat, and stick to that no matter what the survey might say the value is.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We had the unusual circumstance of a (private - no broker) buyer complain to us (sellers) that the surveyor's market value assessment - which came in within $1K of the purchase price - was 'too low'. He thought the surveyed value should have come in at about $20K above what we agreed to.

As he was complaining it occurred to me that 'why didn't you offer that in the first place?'


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

I'm sure that's what happened is they got turned off. I couldn't seem to find anyone to come w/ me to check out the boat in the first place The main actually started ripping after my offer & that's when I looked into repairing vs replacing the original. It was way past it's lifespan, I was just going to have the moldy jib cleaned. They weren't willing to replace the main.

I do find the engine listing odd, it's a different engine w/ 450 hours, not 150. They said it was a typo, it's still listed w/ that engine. 

The survey value, and the fact I really needed to replace the sails & lifelines (not just repair) was giving me a hefty to do list after the fact that would equal that $105k price (or more). These boats just don't sell for that, even w/ upgrades (everything was original on this). 

I don't want to sound like I'm defending myself. I probably wrote this before, but there's a certain price where if I'm buying that old of a boat, having to put tens of thousands into it on top of that & then the continued maintenance for it - I might as well just buy a new boat w/ a warranty.


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

Heller,

you should get your deposit back, now. Tell the broker you want the money. 

Do not give up on buying a boat. If you want go sailing in your own boat, can afford it and so on - do it. 
This case turned bad, you got very strange responses from the broker. But this is not the norm, then very few would use brokers. 

keep us posted!

ATB

J


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

It's been 6 mos...got it!! They switched brokers & lowered the price, not quite to what my offer was. I went ahead w/ another (lower) offer & stayed firm with it. Luckily, the survey & loan info was still current, I just went back to make sure I could pull the sail out & check to see if a few things had been fixed from the survey. It had, I know it needs new sails & am OK w/ that @ this price. I wasn't OK w/ it at the other price, so I let it go. 

I do have a question though, once all your funding goes through, how long before you actually get the boat? There was a stupid glitch with my funding, they took out the sales tax on the loan end. I asked the brokerage about sales tax, they said they didn't do that. Wouldn't they know the loan would? Now I have to wire ($70 of wire transfer fees) the difference. I asked them when I could get the key & a briefing, I already paid for a dock and need to move it. They said they'd give me more info when it's fully funded. WTF?


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Sales Tax is a different transaction, you wouldn't finance sales tax would you? I followed this thread in the beginning and it seemed you did all the right stuff, the owners(seller) just got bad advice from their Broker. However sales tax has always been out of pocket and unless you had the discussion beforehand with your Banker and he could cover it then you just pay it. I doubt any financier would pay your taxes.


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

Good to know, I didn't think they paid that either. I shot out an email to the loan broker to see if they somehow sent the wrong amount? I'm just so antsy to get this now! Merry Christmas to me!!


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

OK, I did set up the loan 6 mos ago to pay off the taxes too. All good, I just have to wire the difference & they should have it by the time I'm sitting on the boat tomorrow waiting to bring it to it's new home  Ahoy!!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Heller Gregory said:


> ....I do have a question though, once all your funding goes through, how long before you actually get the boat? .....


Since you are financing the purchase, I assume you are using an escrow agent. Most banks require it, to insure that title properly passes and their lien is properly attached.

The escrow agent will typically notify you immediately. There is no issue with when you actually get the boat. It's your boat at that point, go take it. It's also your boat that is accruing any further slip fees and your liability for any damage done to it or others. Doesn't even matter if anyone has passed the keys along yet.

You mentioned a briefing, which is a very nice thing to get from a prior owner or broker. As mentioned above, I've benefited from a good relationship with the prior owner of my boat for years. Given the ordeal you've described, I hope that transition goes well for you.

Get your new boat home and enjoy her. All the best.


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

Not sure about the R w/ the owners? I've gone through brokers, this time I was my own buying broker (although I doubt that matters w/ commission). Their broker is out of town, so maybe no briefing? That's OK, all I really need to know is some maintenance stuff for the engine & last time the zinc was swapped out & divers. 

My next thread will be looking for crew from SF to LA...haha. My plan is to sail down in a few years so I have a place to stay when I'm helping out my nutty mom. 

So excited, this is actually a very nice boat!! I feel like this was a good price. I'm BBC certified & in a club, it'll be nice to wake up one morning & go sailing instead of booking months in advance for a weekend & something always happens w/ the charter boats. I can't tell you how many times I've had to sail to the dock! OK, so there's a little bit of a relief when I just call the club & tell them where the boat is & not pay for repairs...still, I'm anal about maint. & hoping that isn't as common on my own boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Heller Gregory said:


> Not sure about the R w/ the owners? I've gone through brokers, this time I was my own buying broker (although I doubt that matters w/ commission).


That may have helped get the price down, if the selling broker didn't need to split the commission. When you made your first offer, your broker probably had you sign something. Hopefully, that expired, if you cut them out of the deal.



> .......all I really need to know is some maintenance stuff for the engine & last time the zinc was swapped out & divers.
> 
> ......I'm anal about maint. & hoping that isn't as common on my own boat.


It's good to be compulsive about maintenance. That being the case, you'll want to quickly do all routine maintenance so you know exactly when it was done last. I've caught brokers clearly making up answers too many times to trust them. Most of the time, I think they just don't want to be caught not knowing something they should know, so they just make up the answer. Occasionally, they don't want to admit the oil hasn't been changed in two years.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

I agree with Minewaska. Start new with all maintenance tasks. Spend a bunch of time cleaning every inch of the boat, inside and out. That will serve as an inspection and a getting-to-know-you session with your boat. I always make three lists: Gotta do, Should do and Want to do. Congatulations and .. "Fair winds and following seas!"


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

With the chorus:
Believe nothing, and do your own thorough maintenance on everything now, so you'll know for sure that it really has been done, and you can start keeping your own log of when/what needs to be done in the future. Take an oil sample from the engine and send it out to Blackstone or another lab (about $25) so you have a baseline analysis, too.
You, or someone, should be going aloft to make sure everything at the masthead is solid, and that's also a good time for new bulbs & grease to ensure those aren't corroding.
Beneteau should be able to supply you with an owner's manual if there's none with the boat, and that may tell you more than any briefing would.


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## groggy (Aug 18, 2011)

Congrats on finally finishing the purchase of the boat! I just did the same a few weeks ago for a much older boat, but it was nice to put the process behind me, even if it was more fun than what you went through.

Getting the boat home and going through the systems, maintenance, and just mapping all the systems is both fun and challenging, and a little intimidating. I defnintely see a large amount of critical work that needs to be done before I am in a steady maintenance mode.

What boat club were you with?


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

I don't think you did anything wrong, in fact I think you did everything right. You walked away from an overpriced boat that had a few maintenance problems and you waited until the owners came to their senses and realized they weren't going to get more.

Congratulations.


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

Woohooo!! We were @ lunch by the dock when the wire transfer went through & they told us where the key was. I brought my 24yr old son w/ me, who sailed once w/ my bro & I to Catalina last year. Still, he was a huge help!! So glad I waited that out! The interior is gorgeous, a little tough still to get that main out of the main furler. Once I get a new sail on there, it should come out like butter!

I brought her from Jack London Square to Emeryville, so we sailed just a little bit under the Bay Bridge. 

I'm @ OCSC sailing club in Berkeley, I've been chartering for years. Thanks for all your comments & help through this whole buying process!! 

The first thing I'll do is go through all the books now, luckily I have very mechanical friends who love to sail! I feel like I've trained my whole life for this!


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

I think I just found the ad for your boat and looked at the pictures. It looks very nice, congratulations. That engine looks really clean.


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

It is really clean


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