# Catamaran or Monohull- which is best?



## 433050

I am getting ready to buy a boat that is at least 40 feet minimum up to about 60 feet. What I am asking the community is their advice and experience with either a Monohull or a Catamaran. I am more inclined to buy a cat than the monohull because comfort is key and I do not like the way a monohull leans. But maybe I am overlooking the advantages of the other.


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## capta

I'd search this site on this subject. It's been done to death.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Seriously there's a mismatch



> I am a 67 year old woman, with no sailing experience


who wants to buy a 60 foot catamaran..

Have you been sailing on a boat? Have you done a class yet?

Do some and you will probably answer the question yourself.


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## smackdaddy

Lassiegirl said:


> I am getting ready to buy a boat that is at least 40 feet minimum up to about 60 feet. What I am asking the community is their advice and experience with either a Monohull or a Catamaran. I am more inclined to buy a cat than the monohull because comfort is key and I do not like the way a monohull leans. But maybe I am overlooking the advantages of the other.


If you don't like the way a mono leans then you definitely shouldn't buy a mono. I've always sailed and raced monos, and my next boat will be a cat.

Since you don't have much experience, go charter some cats on a few trips in the Carib or Med and get a feel before you dump a lot of money.


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## 433050

To Markofsealife...I have been doing some sailing ever since I posted that thread a long time ago so stop being so negative. Your comments are not appreciated and they never were even when I posted that thread. You seem to think you know it all on this site. 
I have been on both kind of boats and like them both.


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## eherlihy




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## overbored

Depends a lot on your budget for the boat and the storage/ up keep. Florida is a great place for a CAT but they are expensive. you can buy more boat in a mono for the same price. Cats require a lot more dock space, more expensive haul outs and in the larger sizes have two engines to maintain. the sail systems are a bit more complex as they are mostly more automatic and easy to set the sails but this can be more to maintain. you can have an automatic mono but many more of them have less complicated sail systems. 
Large Cats have standing head room but you can get the same headroom in a mono in a much smaller size. You are in Florida. there should be many cats to go see that would fit your budget. her on the west coast the decision is made a bit easier by the fact that even if you can afford the three times the price per foot price tag and the three times the price to dock a CAT, there is a ten year wait list to get a space.
Good luck in your search


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## RegisteredUser

Day 1...i would like to go flying.
1 year later....i want to buy a C130 or 757.

Try to understand.

take above advice and do some charters.
looks like you want a life-change.
learn more..dont get rooked because you dunno...see where it leads.


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## 433050

I am intending on living on this boat and that has been my goal all along. That is why I have been blue water sailing since the first month I originally posted my thread that I wanted to learn more about blue water sailing. I lived in the bay are of SF my whole life and sailed on many boats there but not as a crew member, more as a guest. I just came off my third blue water sailing adventure as a newbie crew member and have learned a lot. I like many things about a monohull and many things about a cat. I have the money to buy either one and will do that once I make the decision. I will hire experienced crew that work the boat with me when that time comes. Yes there are many threads on this topic, but this discussion is for 2018, not 2010. Much has changed in the cat world that I would like to know about from the perspective of others who are sailing new cats.


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## SHNOOL

Lemme take a stab at this...
Which is the best computer to buy? I like to draw, and I've seen photoshop used.

Which is the best car to buy, I rode in a Rolls Royce and I'd like something with luxury... Which should I get a Sedan or a Coupe?

Which is the best house to buy? A Ranch or colonial? I want to own a farm and I spent summers baling hay.

I'm really NOT trying to be snipy, but instead trying to put context to the question...

How about we start with where you are going to sail? How many will typically be aboard? How many will be permanent crew? Or are you going to try to single hand it? Bluewater cruising in a large target. Are you crossing oceans? Seas? Or just coastal bumping? Just the Carrib?


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## 433050

I think I should just close this thread. There are obviously some really nasty hateful arrogant people on this site. I would not recommend this site to my worst enemy. Most of the comments have been nothing but stabs at me for asking the question. Over and out on this thread forever.


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## outbound

LG it’s a reasonable question but best answered by understanding how you intend to use the boat, how deep your pockets are, how many people will occupy the boat and if you will have full time paid or other crew aboard. The people here are generally quite nice and supportive. I’m sorry their concern was perceived as not helpful.
Personally have been looking at this question my self. But given my boat is sailed as a couple mostly or as one and we tend to do two long ocean passages per year will stay as a mono for now. Please respond if you wish to understand my (and others) thinking on this topic.


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## pdqaltair

Lassiegirl said:


> I think I should just close this thread. There are obviously some really nasty hateful arrogant people on this site. I would not recommend this site to my worst enemy. Most of the comments have been nothing but stabs at me for asking the question. Over and out on this thread forever.


Who's being negative? They are only asking that you do the reading before demanding the Cliff's Notes. Then they will answer any more specific question you have at great length. For example, if you asked "do cruising cats really tack so badly that I need to back the jib?" you would get dozens of answers on each side. But asking which is better is a riddle with no useful answer.


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze

There is not another person alive who can answer a question concerning your personal preferences, you must do that yourself. But, if you do not feel comfortable on a boat that heels you should not consider anything except a cat. Now the question to move on to is "How big a boat do I need for myself, my?, my other ?, and my 4 man crew and what amenities do I need for an ocean crossing? Good luck!


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## jephotog

Lassiegirl said:


> I think I should just close this thread. There are obviously some really nasty hateful arrogant people on this site. I would not recommend this site to my worst enemy. Most of the comments have been nothing but stabs at me for asking the question. Over and out on this thread forever.


She's going to be a joy to crew for.


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## IDtrucks

jephotog said:


> She's going to be a joy to crew for.


man if she thinks this is hateful...should see some of the off road forums i'm apart of. People get torn to pieces for asking such open ended and vague questions like that (should I SAS my truck, should I get long travel or a solid front axle, do I need lockers and a crawl box). And the answer is always the same...if you have to ask you aren't ready. If you're going to spend the serious coin on a SIXTY FOOT boat, your first question probably should not be what kind of boat do I get. People on a forum can't tell you that without a lot of personal details and plans to compare them to their own experience. Where and how you're planning on sailing, your comfort level, your own preferences, number of people on board, length of passages should be the determining factors.


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## capta

433050 said:


> I will hire experienced crew that work the boat with me when that time comes.


Have you considered that living with a few crew members on a boat as small as 60- feet may not be a very fun way to go sailing? Dealing with their personalities, individual needs and preferences and the fact you will never have any real privacy on your own boat, is not something most liveaboards would enjoy.
As a professional yacht crew for much of my career, with owners rarely being aboard for more than a few weeks, several times a year, I can assure you that as a full time liveaboard owner you are not going to easily find a crew you want to live with 24/7/365.
Down size your dreams to a boat you can manage alone or with one "friend"/ partner and I think you'll have a much more pleasant experience.


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## smackdaddy

Well it's nice to see the "kinder, gentler side of SN" play out in threads I'm not actively involved in. And here I thought I was the problem.

Heh-heh.


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## SanderO

Hard to imagine what sort of "advice" the OP expects. Few have extensive experience with both cats and monos... And many have emotional attachment to the type of boat. And of course how does OP intend to use the boat? Live aboard distance cruising? Part time use from his home port? How many does he plan to have aboard? How many crew will be need to operate either boat.

I suggest OP sail several monos of the size he wants... and several cats and make his own decision.

Good luck!


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## capta

SanderO said:


> Hard to imagine what sort of "advice" the OP expects. Few have extensive experience with both cats and monos... And many have emotional attachment to the type of boat. And of course how does OP intend to use the boat? Live aboard distance cruising? Part time use from his home port? How many does he plan to have aboard? How many crew will be need to operate either boat.
> 
> I suggest OP sail several monos of the size he wants... and several cats and make his own decision.
> 
> Good luck!


From what I gather, the OP is a 67 year old woman with little or no actual sailing experience.
Any first time boat buyer looking @ a 60' cat for ocean cruising needs a pretty damn big bank roll and a good dose of reality check, IMO. But she seems to have the former if she's going to hire a full time crew. That's a cool quarter mil plus, right up front every year!
Anyway, it seems she's taken her ball and gone home 'cause "some really nasty hateful arrogant people" aren't saying what she wanted to hear.


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## smackdaddy

capta said:


> Any first time boat buyer looking @ a 60' cat for ocean cruising needs a pretty damn big bank roll and a good dose of reality check, IMO. But she seems to have the former if she's going to hire a full time crew. That's a cool quarter mil plus, right up front every year!
> Anyway, it seems she's taken her ball and gone home 'cause "some really nasty hateful arrogant people" aren't saying what she wanted to hear.


I read the thread and I have to actually take exception with this last part. I could be wrong, but I don't think there is anyone on this forum who actually has the experience necessary to give her good advice on running a 60' fully-crewed cat for full-time living aboard and ocean cruising.

At least no one on this thread gave her anything useful in that regard.

As you say, if she can afford it, it can easily be done. It is done all the time in wealthier circles.

So it's not really about "people not saying what she wanted to hear" - it was really more about people saying stuff that didn't apply and/or telling her to do it like them instead because they know better or make assumptions - and kind of putting her down as they did so. And that's usually the case in these kinds of threads from what I've seen over the years.

I honestly didn't see any of her statements in this thread that warranted the blowback. But it's over now.


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## capta

smackdaddy said:


> I could be wrong, but I don't think there is anyone on this forum who actually has the experience necessary to give her good advice on running a 60' fully-crewed cat for full-time living aboard and ocean cruising.


As usual, you and I don't see eye to eye on much.
But in this case you are spouting off about what you think and I am speaking from experience. 60' cat, 70' and 85'+ foot monos; not much difference when it comes to full time cruising vessels, with liveaboard owners and professional crews.
And I'm quite sure there are other professionals on here you also dismiss for one reason or another. Odd, to say the least.


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## smackdaddy

capta said:


> As usual, you and I don't see eye to eye on much.
> But in this case you are spouting off about what you think and I am speaking from experience. 60' cat, 70' and 85'+ foot monos; not much difference when it comes to full time cruising vessels, with liveaboard owners and professional crews.
> And I'm quite sure there are other professionals on here you also dismiss for one reason or another. Odd, to say the least.


I saw your post earlier. I didn't take it that she was wanting a crew to live aboard with her full time. As you quoted her, she said...



> I will hire experienced crew that work the boat with me when that time comes.


I took that to mean that when she moves from place to place she'll hire crew. In the mean time, she just wanted a spacious boat to live on. Sounded reasonable to me. Yet you said she needed a "reality check". But I think you two might have been talking different realities.

Anyway, I wasn't aware you had owned and bank-rolled large, fully-crewed yachts cap. I think you're one of the very few here. Maybe the only one. So I apologize for incorrectly assuming otherwise.

My point is that this was an "introduce yourself" thread. And the poster is now gone. That's too bad.


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## capta

smackdaddy said:


> Anyway, I wasn't aware you had owned and bank-rolled large, fully-crewed yachts cap.


Owned and bank rolled? Nope, never said nor implied that, but I was the one that got paid to use up the bank roll. It says that plainly enough..... Oh never mind.


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze

Capta knows best..... don't dare question his assertions as he will try to pillory you....


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## eherlihy

smackdaddy said:


> My point is that this was an "introduce yourself" thread. And the poster is now gone. That's too bad.


I disagree.

I suspect that inane threads like this (new thread: What should I have for breakfast? ) are either trolls, looking for new arguments to start, or people that have neither the experience, the motivation to do cursory research, nor a clue about sailing. As I get older (and crankier) I find that I don't have the patience to deal with either trolls or dolts. Posting such drivel will get you onto my "Ignore List" pretty quickly, as it did with Lassiegirl.

[EDIT]Lest you think that I was too quick to cut Lassiegirl loose, let's take a look at her contributions to SailNet. Remember this is *Sail*Net, the forum where we discuss things relative to *Sailing*:
9 posts to "Alright, I hope I don't get clobbered here" - an introduction thread, in which she seems to get off on the right foot.
10 posts to "Raw Vegans?" - in which she gets preachy about how her vegan diet is superior to "meat eaters" diet.
1 post to "Newcomer to Phuket (and Langkawi)" - she would like to visit that area.
9 posts to "God and sailing" - where she shows herself to be a complete lunatic.
4 posts to this thread.

I would have hated to have to spend any time with her, or worse, be stuck with her as a student.
[/EDIT]

I believe that SailNet will be a better forum with members that can post intelligent SAILING RELATED questions/comments/observations.


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## SeaStar58

The time I have spent working at the sailing center has been an eye opener on this topic. Many different types of boats are sailed from the sailing center mono, cats and tri-hulls. Weather that may make for a scary heavy lean, self righting knockdown or roundabout in a mono and an exciting tale to tell can result in a knock over/turtle and salvage in a multi-hull. Yes technically its harder to knock over a multi-hull boat yet those are the ones we are most often called out to rescue. On a small multi-hull its an inconvenience to send out a rib or skiff to right them however on a larger one its a salvage operation.

One may note that for severely disabled sailors who are paraplegics a self righting mono-hull is the sailing vessel of choice and not a multi-hull. We have a number of handicapped sailors who are paraplegics or double amputees who single handed race and about all of them race the heavily ballasted self righting mono's.

Then we have events such as the gents from Michigan who sailed into a squall on their multi-hull out in the Gulf of Mexico without dropping sail/reefing soon enough and ended up pitch pooling the boat having a total loss. Big error in judgement there however with a much more dramatic end result.

I am no expert however have seen enough watching the rescue boats go out to give serious consideration to the pluses and minuses of both types of boats. Currently I would be inclined to go with a mono-hull for a live aboard vessel that can deal with worst case scenarios with a much greater chance of returning to upright after a knockdown and get you more boat for lower cost both on the initial purchase and in marina fees.


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## Seaman_3rdClass

My experience in this forum has been that folks are tremendously helpful, including many on this thread. I've learned so much by both posting questions and reading others' threads. But you can't come in with an imperious attitude that says, I have the money, now give me a quick summary of exactly what I want, but I don't want to waste my precious time reading to learn enough to pose an intelligent question. People are essentially donating their time to help others they likely will never meet. They are not your domestic help. 

To take this in a more constructive direction, I actually have a question related to the topic of this thread. My limited experience chartering catamarans (Nautitech 40, Helia 44, Bali 4.3) in the Caribbean has been that they are quite bad at actually sailing, especially beating. The Nautitech 40 was probably the least bad, but the Bali 4.3 would actually stall during a tack and you'd have to turn on the engine to complete the tack. It was also very nose-heavy with its all-fiberglass nose and while beating in confused seas would plunge heavily into swells producing quite uncomfortable cork-screwing motion. (I myself am a mono sailor during the summer). I noticed most cats in the Caribbean don't even bother sailing closer to the wind, they just motor. 

A while ago there was a thread about cats where someone posted a link to an article discussing "good" and "bad" catamarans. Are the cats in the 40-50' range typically found in the Carribean charter fleets (DYC, Moorings, Sunsail etc.) mostly in the "bad" catamaran category, i.e., underpowered and overweight floating condos? Or are some of them (e.g. the Sunsail Leopards) actually fun to sail, and not just with the wind abeam or behind you?


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## fallard

SeaStar58 said:


> The time I have spent working at the sailing center has been an eye opener on this topic. Many different types of boats are sailed from the sailing center mono, cats and tri-hulls. Weather that may make for a scary heavy lean, self righting knockdown or roundabout in a mono and an exciting tale to tell can result in a knock over/turtle and salvage in a multi-hull. Yes technically its harder to knock over a multi-hull boat yet those are the ones we are most often called out to rescue. On a small multi-hull its an inconvenience to send out a rib or skiff to right them however on a larger one its a salvage operation.
> 
> One may note that for severely disabled sailors who are paraplegics a self righting mono-hull is the sailing vessel of choice and not a multi-hull. We have a number of handicapped sailors who are paraplegics or double amputees who single handed race and about all of them race the heavily ballasted self righting mono's.
> 
> Then we have events such as the gents from Michigan who sailed into a squall on their multi-hull out in the Gulf of Mexico without dropping sail/reefing soon enough and ended up pitch pooling the boat having a total loss. Big error in judgement there however with a much more dramatic end result.
> 
> I am no expert however have seen enough watching the rescue boats go out to give serious consideration to the pluses and minuses of both types of boats. Currently I would be inclined to go with a mono-hull for a live aboard vessel that can deal with worst case scenarios with a much greater chance of returning to upright after a knockdown and get you more boat for lower cost both on the initial purchase and in marina fees.


Every choice has its pros and cons, but it all comes down to priorities in the end. I'm with Seastar58 on the self-righting issue, based-if nothing else-on an event 20 or so years ago.

We were in cruising class in the Race Rock Regatta, out of Stonington. As we rounded the western end of Fishers Island, the winds picked up to 45+ kts out of the NE, as we struggled with a sail malfunction. (Our brand new sail could not be reefed properly and we had lost 2 battens-all resolved later under the North warranty). We were beating into it with a single reef and could not flatten the sail as we got the lower lifelines in the water on the roll. We were not enjoying the sailing that day, but we and the boat were fine. However, that was not true of several boats.

When we got back to Stonington Harbor, we saw an overturned 24' catamaran. That boat had pitchpoled-inside the breakwater-5 minutes after our cruising class start. Maybe they were lucky that they didn't get caught on the ocean side of Fishers Island and had rescue close at hand.

My vote goes to monohull for obvious reasons.


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## Arcb

Seaman_3rdClass said:


> My experience in this forum has been that folks are tremendously helpful, including many on this thread. I've learned so much by both posting questions and reading others' threads. But you can't come in with an imperious attitude that says, I have the money, now give me a quick summary of exactly what I want, but I don't want to waste my precious time reading to learn enough to pose an intelligent question. People are essentially donating their time to help others they likely will never meet. They are not your domestic help.
> 
> To take this in a more constructive direction, I actually have a question related to the topic of this thread. My limited experience chartering catamarans (Nautitech 40, Helia 44, Bali 4.3) in the Caribbean has been that they are quite bad at actually sailing, especially beating. The Nautitech 40 was probably the least bad, but the Bali 4.3 would actually stall during a tack and you'd have to turn on the engine to complete the tack. It was also very nose-heavy with its all-fiberglass nose and while beating in confused seas would plunge heavily into swells producing quite uncomfortable cork-screwing motion. (I myself am a mono sailor during the summer). I noticed most cats in the Caribbean don't even bother sailing closer to the wind, they just motor.
> 
> A while ago there was a thread about cats where someone posted a link to an article discussing "good" and "bad" catamarans. Are the cats in the 40-50' range typically found in the Carribean charter fleets (DYC, Moorings, Sunsail etc.) mostly in the "bad" catamaran category, i.e., underpowered and overweight floating condos? Or are some of them (e.g. the Sunsail Leopards) actually fun to sail, and not just with the wind abeam or behind you?


I don't know if it's a good vs bad thing, it's more a question of how you want to weigh your compromise.

Catamarans are subject to all the same rules of hydro dynamics and aerodynamics as monohulls.

Some of the cruising cats I have observed have high freeboards and big superstructures that create a lot of upwind resistance. When this windage is combined with say, shallow keels for hydrodynamic lift, it is going to have an impact on up wind performance when compared to an otherwise identical boat with a more aerodynamic design above the waterline and a more hydrodynamically efficient design below the waterline.

There is no doubt I my mind that some cruising cats are complete slugs to weather. Earlier this season I was beating to weather in my overloaded asymetrical beach cat and I over took a popular 40ft cruising cat that was motoring hard into the same wind. Not all cats are created equal.


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## capta

fallard said:


> When we got back to Stonington Harbor, we saw an overturned 24' catamaran. That boat had pitchpoled-inside the breakwater-5 minutes after our cruising class start. Maybe they were lucky that they didn't get caught on the ocean side of Fishers Island and had rescue close at hand.
> 
> My vote goes to monohull for obvious reasons.


For the most part, multihulls do not tip over; *people* tip them over!
Also, if one is doing something like a circumnavigation, should one encounter that terrible "perfect storm", on a multi, it is always comforting to think that should one capsize the vessel, at least she won't sink, and you have food and water available until rescue.
Same storm, same scenario and your monohull could sink.


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## jephotog

eherlihy said:


> "Lassiegirl"
> 9 posts to "God and sailing" - where she shows herself to be a complete lunatic.


Besides changing her name I think she removed some of her greatest hits on that thread. I seem to remember her saying the fact she prayed each of the four times she went offshore (out of the harbor) and because of that the boat and crew made it back safely is proof that God exists.

I envisioned Captain and Crew being forced to pray each day, irrelevant of their beliefs to ensure the boat does not sink. Note to self regardless of how tempting it sounds ignore any advertisement for 60 foot catamarans looking for crew.


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## jephotog

capta said:


> For the most part, multihulls do not tip over; *people* tip them over!
> Also, if one is doing something like a circumnavigation, should one encounter that terrible "perfect storm", on a multi, it is always comforting to think that should one capsize the vessel, at least she won't sink, and you have food and water available until rescue.
> Same storm, same scenario and your monohull could sink.


What's the chance a storm that can roll a monohull and sink it does not destroy a catamaran? Does a cat become so stable upside down it becomes impervious the havoc above?


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## capta

jephotog said:


> What's the chance a storm that can roll a monohull and sink it does not destroy a catamaran? Does a cat become so stable upside down it becomes impervious the havoc above?


I haven't been there on anything bigger than a Hobie 16, but I'm assuming a cat becomes very stable upside down. Much more so than the other way around, especially if her rig is there. Being in a liferaft and tethered to an upside down cat in a bad storm, might be survivable. Being out there in just the liferaft might be much less so.


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## Arcb

jephotog said:


> What's the chance a storm that can roll a monohull and sink it does not destroy a catamaran? Does a cat become so stable upside down it becomes impervious the havoc above?


The same physics that keep a catamaran upright, keep it upside down.

It's a function of length of the lever arm (beam) and the force of gravity acting down, the force of bouyancy acting up and the height of the centre of gravity.

An upside down cat has basically the same beam as a rightway up cat. Likely a lower centre of gravity (due to the superstructure being underwater). Likely a greater force of gravity acting down on each hull due to water ingress. The big variable is the centre of bouyancy acting upwards as the hulls slowly fill with water.

I think, at first, a beamy cat should be pretty stable upside down and possibly become less stable over time as the hulls fill with water.


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## fallard

capta said:


> For the most part, multihulls do not tip over; *people* tip them over!
> Also, if one is doing something like a circumnavigation, should one encounter that terrible "perfect storm", on a multi, it is always comforting to think that should one capsize the vessel, at least she won't sink, and you have food and water available until rescue.
> Same storm, same scenario and your monohull could sink.


You are talking hypothetically. You might be right, but I'd like to see the statistics before staking a position. Meanwhile the discussion is about preferences and opinions, which is fine. The discussion might be pretty dull if everything were black and white.


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## smackdaddy

eherlihy said:


> As I get older (and crankier) I find that I don't have the patience to deal with either trolls or dolts. Posting such drivel will get you onto my "Ignore List" pretty quickly, as it did with Lassiegirl.
> 
> [EDIT]Lest you think that I was too quick to cut Lassiegirl loose, let's take a look at her contributions to SailNet. Remember this is *Sail*Net, the forum where we discuss things relative to *Sailing*:
> 9 posts to "Alright, I hope I don't get clobbered here" - an introduction thread, in which she seems to get off on the right foot.
> 10 posts to "Raw Vegans?" - in which she gets preachy about how her vegan diet is superior to "meat eaters" diet.
> 1 post to "Newcomer to Phuket (and Langkawi)" - she would like to visit that area.
> 9 posts to "God and sailing" - where she shows herself to be a complete lunatic.
> 4 posts to this thread.
> 
> I would have hated to have to spend any time with her, or worse, be stuck with her as a student.
> [/EDIT]
> 
> I believe that SailNet will be a better forum with members that can post intelligent SAILING RELATED questions/comments/observations.


Starting with your last part, this has always been my problem with most forums and the clique mentality that seems to rule them. How can a newb "post intelligent SAILING RELATED questions/comments/observations" when they don't really know anything? And who defines "intelligent"? What it really comes down to is their attitude in the face of the "advice" they're getting from long-time members. Do these members approve of that attitude? And if not, what do they do? Ignore and move on?

This chick's first post in this thread was a perfectly intelligent question as far as I'm concerned...for a newb.

I looked through some of the other threads you mentioned and I certainly didn't see where she was anymore a "troll" or a "dolt" or a "lunatic" (your words, not mine) than anyone else posting in those obviously contentious threads. You'll notice I wasn't one of them BTW (counter to recent sentiments on "bullying").

When I first came to SN, I cut my teeth in OT - actually in a very sailing-related thread there called FightClub For Sailors. I don't ever go to SNOT anymore - and I was NEVER into PWRG. It's all boring as hell compared to sailing. So I just stick to the sailing threads now.

I think one of the problems around here is that SNOT posters tend to bring that angst out into the general forum - chasing each other through these sailing threads and piling it on. And I don't think that is good at all for the forum.

So, maybe, as you say, everyone around here is just getting old and cranky. But that's no excuse. Newbs should be able to post without getting jumped. Period. If one doesn't like their attitude - move on. It's simple...unless one has something to prove.

As for catamarans, for those of you interested in sailing - most of them sail very well if you know how to sail them. You can read about that *from a few people who actually own them* here...

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...multihull-popularity-interesting-designs.html

That's where I'm headed.

Later.


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## capta

smackdaddy said:


> As for catamarans, for those of you interested in sailing - most of them sail very well if you know how to sail them. .


Nikki and I met and spent a bit of time with a professional ocean racer several years back, who sailed cats exclusively. In one conversation he stated that if he could find a cat that would tack at 120 degrees or less he'd be the happiest man alive.
So really, I guess it all depends on what your definition of sailing "very well" is.


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## colemj

capta said:


> Nikki and I met and spent a bit of time with a professional ocean racer several years back, who sailed cats exclusively. In one conversation he stated that if he could find a cat that would tack at 120 degrees or less he'd be the happiest man alive.
> So really, I guess it all depends on what your definition of sailing "very well" is.


Our boat is overloaded and underperforming - by a lot - and we can tack better than 120*.

Most of the charter cats will tack better than 120* without issue. Maybe all of them. Many of the common charter models will do much better. Any board cat like Catana, Outremer, Schionning, White, etc will tack to wind better than most monohulls.

If the point of contention was 100*, I'd be more acceptable of his statement.

I wonder how many cruising monohulls tack less than 120*?

Mark


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## eherlihy

smackdaddy said:


> Starting with your last part, this has always been my problem with most forums and the clique mentality that seems to rule them. How can a newb "post intelligent SAILING RELATED questions/comments/observations" when they don't really know anything? And who defines "intelligent"? What it really comes down to is their attitude in the face of the "advice" they're getting from long-time members. Do these members approve of that attitude? And if not, what do they do? Ignore and move on?
> 
> This chick's first post in this thread was a perfectly intelligent question as far as I'm concerned...for a newb.
> 
> I looked through some of the other threads you mentioned and I certainly didn't see where she was anymore a "troll" or a "dolt" or a "lunatic" (your words, not mine) than anyone else posting in those obviously contentious threads. You'll notice I wasn't one of them BTW (counter to recent sentiments on "bullying").
> 
> When I first came to SN, I cut my teeth in OT - actually in a very sailing-related thread there called FightClub For Sailors. I don't ever go to SNOT anymore - and I was NEVER into PWRG. It's all boring as hell compared to sailing. So I just stick to the sailing threads now.
> 
> I think one of the problems around here is that SNOT posters tend to bring that angst out into the general forum - chasing each other through these sailing threads and piling it on. And I don't think that is good at all for the forum.
> 
> So, maybe, as you say, everyone around here is just getting old and cranky. But that's no excuse. Newbs should be able to post without getting jumped. Period. If one doesn't like their attitude - move on. It's simple...unless one has something to prove.
> 
> As for catamarans, for those of you interested in sailing - most of them sail very well if you know how to sail them. You can read about that *from a few people who actually own them* here...
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...multihull-popularity-interesting-designs.html
> 
> That's where I'm headed.
> 
> Later.


Sorry Smack, but no. Newbs CAN ask questions, and they will be replied to. However the Newbs question should at least show that the Newb has done SOME homework on their own, or they risk annoying the people who could most help them. I spend my weekends teaching sailing to people that want to learn and are willing to make the investment of their time and money to make it happen.

"Catamaran or Monohull - which is best?" and "I am a 67 year old woman, with no sailing experience" and then copping an attitude to the replies: "There are obviously some really nasty hateful arrogant people on this site. I would not recommend this site to my worst enemy." Uh, not that I care but I would advise her to - GTFOH! (sorry, I can't see her posts, I only see other's quotes from her posts)

Lassiegirl asked a question which has been asked in several variations elsewhere in SailNet and in many other forums. Had she bothered to spend an hour or two reading up on the topic she would have found a lot of specific answers to questions about the differences between a mono and multi-hull. She also could have learned enough to have posed intelligent questions and not have come across as a dolt. But no, it was much easier for her to just post a stupid question and then chastise people that tried to help. - I admit that I was not one of the helpful few, but I did not start throwing stones at her while she was here either. I simply decided "dolt" and ignored her.

She was advised by Capta, Mark, pdqaltair, RegisteredUser, and SailingUphill (possibly others) to do _some_ research. She apparently took offense to this and got snippy. She reminds me of Jennifer Appel in this respect (I see that she's up to $40!). Getting snippy in the face of good advice from respected posters that are trying to help you is just plain stupid. I learned long ago that ignorance can be fixed, stupidity cannot.

I am sure that the folks over at Sailing-Anarchy and Cruisers-Forum have been much more gentle and patient with people who want to be spoon-fed instructions on how to spend their money. I don't. Instead, I simply throw 'em on my ignore list, and celebrate when they leave. I hope that someday Lassiegirl and Bwalker42 meetup and sail away together - with their dogs...


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## smackdaddy

eherlihy said:


> Sorry Smack, but no. Newbs CAN ask questions, and they will be replied to. However the Newbs question should at least show that the Newb has done SOME homework on their own, or they risk annoying the people who could most help them....


This is as far as I got. You need to understand, herli, that forums ARE the homework. And newbs don't owe us long-time members a damn thing. If one doesn't want to answer a question from a newb - then don't. If one gets annoyed at the way someone is asking the question - then move on.

You can simply look at the web stats to see that most traffic to SN comes from *searches*. THIS is the homework newbs are doing to get here. If they then have to kiss the boots of certain people who might get annoyed at their questions when they arrive - then this is just a boy's club - not a welcoming forum.

I found SN 10 years ago - when I was starting out in sailing - through a Google search on whatever topic I was looking into. I knew absolutely nothing about sailing other than it was the coolest, most intriguing and mystical thing I'd ever looked into (out of LOTS of outdoor sports and hobbies I've enjoyed).

Lots of people here did demand I lick their boots when I began poking around and got very annoyed when I heartily refused. Thankfully, there were many other sailors here who didn't need or demand that kind of "reverence" and answered most every question I had. That was really cool.

I hope SN can be a place where anyone can ask questions without worrying about annoying someone or, worse, being jumped.

People wonder why sailing is dying? Just look at the boots.

PS - You're certainly throwing stones now.


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## chef2sail

smackdaddy said:


> Starting with your last part, this has always been my problem with most forums and the clique mentality that seems to rule them. How can a newb "post intelligent SAILING RELATED questions/comments/observations" when they don't really know anything? And who defines "intelligent"? What it really comes down to is their attitude in the face of the "advice" they're getting from long-time members. Do these members approve of that attitude? And if not, what do they do? Ignore and move on?
> 
> This chick's first post in this thread was a perfectly intelligent question as far as I'm concerned...for a newb.
> 
> I looked through some of the other threads you mentioned and I certainly didn't see where she was anymore a "troll" or a "dolt" or a "lunatic" (your words, not mine) than anyone else posting in those obviously contentious threads. You'll notice I wasn't one of them BTW (counter to recent sentiments on "bullying").
> 
> When I first came to SN, I cut my teeth in OT - actually in a very sailing-related thread there called FightClub For Sailors. I don't ever go to SNOT anymore - and I was NEVER into PWRG. It's all boring as hell compared to sailing. So I just stick to the sailing threads now.
> 
> I think one of the problems around here is that SNOT posters tend to bring that angst out into the general forum - chasing each other through these sailing threads and piling it on. And I don't think that is good at all for the forum.
> 
> So, maybe, as you say, everyone around here is just getting old and cranky. But that's no excuse. Newbs should be able to post without getting jumped. Period. If one doesn't like their attitude - move on. It's simple...unless one has something to prove.
> 
> As for catamarans, for those of you interested in sailing - most of them sail very well if you know how to sail them. You can read about that *from a few people who actually own them* here...
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...multihull-popularity-interesting-designs.html
> 
> That's where I'm headed.
> 
> Later.


So now we should take advice on how to act in a forum from you.....that's rich.
Maybe some one new here who doesn't know your history will beleive in that

You've been banned from forums due to the way you ridiculed and treated others
You call people who disagree with you intellectually, a "posse", used negatively
You even just now called the woman poster a "chick" kind of chauvinistic did not you think
You singlehandedly are responsible for pushing a number of really helpful posters off of Sailnet
There is always controversy surrounding your postings, course you blame tha on a conspiracy of some sort

Come on now...please don't advise us to follow the way you act toward others.

If you were so concerned about newbies in the forums you would state your opinion and not try and ram in down others throats with the war and peace multiple postings. You should be the last one to tell others how to act in a forum

Attacking new posters or veteran posters is not a good way to go. Most sailors I have met are very willing to share their knowledge. Almost all SN members I have met in person ( the number is in the hundreds) are pretty cool people. This includes long time posters and newbies .

The group from the Chesapeake is a very divergent opinionated crowd. What I observe is when they get together in person, there is no pretensiveness and they are glad to see or help each other. This group is a good example. You often read encouraging posts and sharing of info in the Chessie thread and no one person tries to dominate the conversations. There are newbies...and experienced sailors in the group. No one makes fun of the newbies or characterizes the experienced sailors as "old and cranky"

It is because of that I still stay engaged in Sailnet.


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## eherlihy

Smack, You are free to enter into forum posting debates with anyone whom you wish to do so. Just as I am free to put dolts and trolls on my ignore list.

I don't see this as throwing stones... it's more like celebrating her departure. Hopefully, newbs will read this thread and learn something from it.


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## jephotog

smackdaddy said:


> I hope SN can be a place where anyone can ask questions without worrying about annoying someone or, worse, being jumped.
> 
> People wonder why sailing is dying? Just look at the boots.
> 
> PS - You're certainly throwing stones now.


Are you here for the sailing discussion?

It feels like your prime objective here is to create discord, question other peoples opinions or the way they state them, with the primary goal of getting others banned. This can't be fun for you anymore.


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## eherlihy

I was not looking to poke Smack with a stick, but Smack's vehement defense of Lassiegirl and the above posts aroused my curiosity... so I did very little digging.

Ban Stick | SMACKTALK!


> Banned Again!
> Well, I've been banned yet again from another sailing forum. I think I might see a pattern here.


...


> SN [SailNet] is my primary hangout. It's got plenty of spice but not enough to make you hide it from the kids. It's like a nice community pub where real sailors hang out. It's also one of the best-moderated sites out there - bar none. How do I know? Well, *I'm proud to say I've been banned from SN three times in my illustrious career there (stories for another time); bannings that, for the most part, I absolutely deserved.* But, more importantly, they were handled with integrity and transparency. No behind-the-scenes crap, which I can't stand.
> 
> Much of the credit for this integrity-based, great moderation goes to a long-time member and moderator there named Cruisingdad. Over the years, he's taken a tremendous amount of heat over my antics..but he has ALWAYS been fair, even when banning me. That's a very rare thing in forums.


Smack, I have NEVER been banned from ANY site. My primary reason for participating in the various forums in which I am active is to repay the help that I have received through them. I also have tried to pay my dues, and be respectful of the people that I was asking to help me out. Part of that respect was shown by not wasting their time with "what kind of boat should I buy" threads.

I have respect for you as someone that defended me from, of all people Maine Sail, when as a newb, I had asked if a broker was being a jerk (he was). I can't seem to find that thread, or I would post the link. (Google just decided that I am posting too many queries!)

I had honestly intended to send this to you as a PM out of respect for you. I am not looking to start an internet fight with anyone. However, as I read on in your blog;


> ...
> Well, if you know me at all, you know that I'm not exactly a "shrinking violet". I LOVE a good, clean forum fight.
> ...
> Also, as is pretty well documented in my illustrious forum career, I hate the whole Private Message thing, or hidden sections within forums that only some members can access, etc. - any place where you can be one person in public and another in private. I'm NEVER afraid to tell you something to your face in the forum where everyone can see it. Because if stuff is hidden, it WILL be misused...
> I wanted to test the moderation. What was behind that notorious curtain of CF moderation? The best way to find out - is to push it.


 So, here you go.

What does one call an entity that intentionally pushes the limits on an internet forum with the intent of testing moderation, and arguing over trivial issues?


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## jephotog

eherlihy said:


> What does one call an entity that intentionally pushes the limits on an internet forum with the intent of testing moderation, and arguing over trivial issues?


This comes to mind.


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## eherlihy

I love the Holy Grail, but I see it more like this;





Newbie Trolling:
As its name suggests, newbie trolling, is the act of instilling hostility and annoyance by posing as an inexperienced newcomer and posting redundant questions to solicit reactions from those who're more experienced and genuinely willing to help. The tried-and-true practice of "playing dumb" has been also observed in the form of grammar trolling, which entails intentionally misspelling a word or a phrase in order to solicit reactions or corrections from those unable to tolerate faulty grammar, sometimes known as Grammar Nazis.


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## smackdaddy

eherlihy said:


> I have respect for you as someone that defended me from, of all people Maine Sail, when as a newb, I had asked if a broker was being a jerk (he was). I can't seem to find that thread, or I would post the link.


I don't remember that situation, but I'm glad you felt someone had your back. But see, that's the rub. I'm pretty consistent in my defense of newbs. I always have been. But the thing is if I do so, I will inevitably piss off the long-time member(s) I'm encouraging to chill out.

To the newb, I'm a hero. To the long-time member(s), I'm a "troll"...as you're seeing play out here, right now.

I just try to keep things *fair*. That's what I'm talking about in that post of mine you pulled. I'm *always* willing to step into a "fight" if I see people being cliquish and hypocritical or running rough-shod over newbs - regardless of who they are. That was the whole point of that CF exercise you've pulled that single quote from. And remember, *mods there were dismissed because of their actions in that whole debacle*. So let's keep things in context.

herli, I simply think you're out of line with the things you're saying here about this newb (judging by this thread), and - more importantly - your expectations of what newbs should do or expect when posting on a forum regarding something they know little about.

If *you* benefited from someone having your back early on, you should certainly consider the height of the bar you're setting for others.



eherlihy said:


> Hopefully, newbs will read this thread and learn something from it.


I have no doubt they will.

PS - No worries on the PM thing. I meant what I said. I have no problem having these discussions in public. I think it's much better for everyone.


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## chef2sail

eherlihy said:


> I was not looking to poke Smack with a stick, but Smack's vehement defense of Lassiegirl and the above posts aroused my curiosity... so I did very little digging.
> 
> Ban Stick | SMACKTALK!
> 
> ...
> 
> Smack, I have NEVER been banned from ANY site. My primary reason for participating in the various forums in which I am active is to repay the help that I have received through them. I also have tried to pay my dues, and be respectful of the people that I was asking to help me out. Part of that respect was shown by not wasting their time with "what kind of boat should I buy" threads.
> 
> I have respect for you as someone that defended me from, of all people Maine Sail, when as a newb, I had asked if a broker was being a jerk (he was). I can't seem to find that thread, or I would post the link. (Google just decided that I am posting too many queries!)
> 
> I had honestly intended to send this to you as a PM out of respect for you. I am not looking to start an internet fight with anyone. However, as I read on in your blog; So, here you go.
> 
> What does one call an entity that intentionally pushes the limits on an internet forum with the intent of testing moderation, and arguing over trivial issues?


Simple answer.........A BULLY


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## chef2sail

Amusing

You trying to position yourself as the defender of the newbie......fighting the big old bad multi posters like SV Auspicious and countless others. In your own words you call yourself a hero. 

I remember when I was a newbie here , ridiculed by your sarcasm. It’s completely diengenous to characterize many of the loyal posters on here as being against the newbies. There is nothing further from the truth where I have seen many posters reach out and help other sailors on here. I gave SPECIFIC examples in the Chesapeake thread , which Are carried on in many other threads by many posters on here.

By your own words ehrlily posted you have no problem wasting many of our time challenging the moderators or people with more knowledge than you justfor the sake of testing their limits. Is this what a hero does?

Many others on here help fellow SN tangibly. Helping them buy boats, fixing issues on their boats, giving advice on sailing problems, sharing places they visit . 

These are the people you now choose to continue to attack. Why? Why would you attack contributors on this site who help other sailors? Why would you llump them in a group and pit newbies against older posters here? That’s not cool. What becomes apparent is you want to cause the chaos? In fact you take pride in pushing mods and you have to assume other posters to the limit. You seem to take pride in being banned from other sites. This by your own postings. 

Your biggest contribution to date...fight club and pushing moderators to the limit. You have pushed at JeffH a moderator. Now it’s clear why. You intended to do that. I don’t know of any other sailors on here who do that. 

I will not shut up about what you are doing. You are ruining this site with your behavior. You attack good sailors who are contributing posters on this site as you did the sites that banned you. You characterize them as a group...a posse ....old....and pit them against others. In fact you encourage others to be against them. You can’t hide behind that this is just your opinion. You incite the chaos. You purposely by your own admission push the limits and make many feel uncomfortable on here. Is this what the fellowship of sailing is? 

I was always taught you must turn and face a bully. You don’t put them on ignore and pretend they aren’t there. You need to start your own site. It was so peAceful here when you were gone.


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## caberg

This forum is starting to feel more like a psychology experiment that's gone off the rails, than a sailing forum. I think an entire semester of psych could be filled just studying the personality traits and conflicts in some of these threads.


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## Donna_F

Gentlemen. Quit it. Please.

The OP is probably gone. No need to beat her up. No need to continue the snarky posts amongst each other. Let’s move on.


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## Dog8It

It's all Giu's fault. After he left, SN has not been the same.


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