# Want to Purchase by Fall 2018



## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

Hello,

I hope to buy my first sailboat by Fall 2018 at the latest, and wanted to join this forum to get advice, and prepare, while I am getting my house ready for sale, as I need to do that in order to purchase a live aboard boat.

I hope to buy some sort of cruiser-racer in the 32-36 ft range, however, my budget will only allow for a purchase of less than $36k. So, I may have to buy something smaller, i.e., 29-31 ft LOA.

FYI: I will be single-handing, and know that within my budget constraints, that I will have to slowly upgrade my boat over time.

So far, C&C sailboats really appeal to me, the availability seems pretty good, however, I am very open to fractional, mast-stepped rigs as well - some say they have definite advantages over keel-stepped masthead rigs - but I don't know if I will be able to find a decent fractional, mast-stepped [live aboard] rig within my price range.

Feedback very much appreciated.

Regards,
DBerry


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Welcome. If you're going to live aboard, storage, head room, hvac, tankage, stoves, refrigeration, fresh water systems and heads/showers are more important than on a weekend sailer. Equally important is where you will liveaboard. More and more marinas have been disallowing them of late. Where will you be located?

Of course, single handing has implications for cockpit organization, sail plan, autopilot, maybe self tackers, etc.

Have you lived aboard or cruised for any length of time? Lets us know your experiences, likes and dislikes and I'm sure that around here some can be more helpful with your search.

Good luck.


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## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

Thank-you for your interest, and questions Minnewaska, I really appreciate it.

1) I have never owned a boat before, let alone lived on one.

2) Sailing experience? I was a marine technology major years ago, and have just about forgotten everything I learned about navigation, rules underway for US waters, and small boat handling (-although the handling part should come back fairly quickly).

3) Other than sailing dinghies, I have about 6 weeks experience as a crew member on a barquentine, and brigantine, but once again, that was many years ago.

4) Why buy a boat now, and live board? Until 12 years ago, I always lived on the West coast of the US, but got marooned inland, want to get back to one of our coasts, but can no longer afford to buy a condo, so will have to pay *rent*. And since I am an an early pensioner, I need to either live in Florida, or Washington so I won't have to pay state income tax, or stay stuck where I am now (-ugh).

5) Moreover, my current home will NOT be paid off for another 18 years, so whether I keep it, or sell it, and buy a 30-36 ft sailboat, I don't think my annual budget will vary much, as a single family detached home has all sorts of maintenance costs as well. And, since I will be in debt until the day I die, then I might as well enjoy life as much as possible. So, from that perspective, being able to live aboard, and sail seems a lot more pleasurable than mowing my lawn, and pruning trees while waiting for entrance into the next life.

6) FYI, I almost bought a live aboard sailboat 13 years ago, when I was living on the West coast, but I was cautioned that marinas were getting rid of live aboards, and yet, had I bought a boat anyway, I could have been living on the water somewhere in the US all this time, and not marooned inland leading a very boring life.

7) Regarding single-handing, from what I have read, a fractional rig is easier to handle than a masthead rig, but then again, if teenagers can pull off singlehanded circumnavigations, and even adults in their 60s - 70s, then I cannot imagine why I couldn't take my sailboat out of a harbor, and at least go for a coastal cruise for a week or two every now and then, and there are certainly many sailers doing just that, and uploading their adventures to YouTube, and I reckon that if they can do it, so can I.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, and since I am already an early retiree, and because I will always be in debt no matter what I do, then why not enjoy living for a change, as I certainly am not enjoying life where I am now.

Thanks in advance for all critiques and feedback.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

First step is to update your profile here so we know where you are located. It makes a big difference on your boat choices. My guess is by mentioning C&C you are on the Great Lakes or East Coast? As for liveaboards they are usually limited spots at each marina if allowed at all. Your first step is to talk to marinas near you to see your options, there is usually a waiting list. Some marinas also have a size restriction, i.e. no liveaboards below 35 feet.

When choosing your solo sailing liveaboard there are many more critical details as Minne pointed out besides rigging and mast stepping details, like tankage and storage. Since you don't know how to sail now you are pretty much stuck to buying a boat in the location you choose to live-aboard now. I would concentrate on the state and marina first then look for boats already there. There are some Islander 36s that might fit in your price range.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

It would be a good idea to figure out how to liveaboard somehow, before you fully commit. When you buy a boat, it only depreciates. You could end up stuck, if finances don't allow you to take a loss and start over.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

If you are set on a racer cruiser and you like C&C's I don't think you could go too far wrong with a C&C. 

My only thought is a 33-35' racer cruiser could be a lot of boat to learn to sail on. If you studied nautical science, the academic side should be a non issue for you and most any insurance company would recognise that as equal or above ASA, which is good for you as it could save you some bucks on courses. The problem is, you are still going to need to learn to sail from a practical perspective. Dinghy experience is a big plus. 

$36k is a nice healthy budget, so that is a plus, you should be able to get something really nice for that. 

Your basic plan sounds reasonable to me.


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## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

Thanks for the reply Jordan, really appreciate it, and I added the state that I am living in to my profile.

Note: It is time for me to move back to the coast, and I only wished I had bought a live aboard sailboat 13 years ago, instead of moving out here, but I got talked out of buying one by a few people at SoCal marinas, who told me that live aboards were being kicked, or phased out.

*My reply to Minne, was probably too long, so here is a summary*.

- Since I have another 18 years of mortgage payments to "look forward to", I will probably never be out of debt, and, because homeowners incur all sorts of expenses, e.g., $8,000 dollar heat pump replacement last month, then whether I live in boredom here, or enjoy living on a boat, cruising, paying slip fees, and incurring various nautical costs, either way I will still be in debt. So, I might as well have fun while remaining broke. 
:cut_out_animated_em

Needless to say, there probably will not be any positive change in my financial situation, one way or another, as mortgage payments, and homeowner expenses vs slip fees, plus yachty expenses will probably be a wash anyway (-or close to it).

The way I see my financial situation over the next 18 years, is that I have two choices essentially, 1) stay in debt paying off a mortgage, while incurring more costs trying to maintain a 40+ year old house, or, 2) take a chance, buy a boat and see what happens.

*Regarding Sailing Lessons*: There is a lake marina about 30 minutes from my house that offers [basic] keelboat lessons, and I plan to enroll in at least one course this coming Spring.

*Homeport*: Once I sell my house, I plan to move to Florida, or Washington, and finish all my basic sailing coursework (-about another $2,500 or so).

*Minimum LOA for Live Aboards*: I had no idea that there was a bare minimum LOA for live aboard sailers, as I have been looking at marinas in Florida that allow that, and none of them mentioned a minimum LOA. * I would really appreciate some links that discuss this. Thanks.

*Question*: Do you live aboard? If so how long, and where?

*FYI*: I prefer to have a homeport / establish residence in either Florida, or Washington, because I can save money on state income tax.

Regards,
Donald


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

My advice would be to buy a boat that costs 20K max. That will limit your risk and give you extra cushion for unexpected expenses (you can definitely expect them).
As to the choice of the boat: C&C had a lot of good boats so it is a good start but I would spend as much time as possible looking at boats in real life. They do look different up close. It's a buyers market for used sailboats these days so you can afford to be picky.
And last thing: DON"T BUY A PROJECT BOAT.
You will spend too much time and money fixing it. There are plenty of decent boats out there.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Some cpmments.

Don't get hung up on masthead vs. fractional, keel stepped vs. deck stepped. Concentrate on the boat and it it meets your requirements.

You have a decent budget. Should get you something in the 30-35 foot range. Will be older and need some work, but not a project. 

I like C&Cs, but there are plenty of other makes that will suit your needs. Many will have better interiors for living aboard compared to a racing oriented C&C.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

You sound like me... to some extent, when I as 25.. I decided I wanted to live on a sailboat, _when I had never been on a say boat._ I still was thinking this after owning a 13 ft. boat, but that was nowhere close to living on a sailboat.

Not clear if you have any sailing experience. but it might be a good idea to find a marina and see if you can crew on a boat. Might give you some insight to what kind of boat you may want... maybe a smaller boat would work for you.

Do you have or need a job? is it something you can do from a boat?


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

DBerry said:


> - Since I have another 18 years of mortgage payments to "look forward to", I will probably never be out of debt, and, because homeowners incur all sorts of expenses, e.g., $8,000 dollar heat pump replacement last month, then whether I live in boredom here, or enjoy living on a boat, cruising, paying slip fees, and incurring various nautical costs, either way I will still be in debt. So, I might as well have fun while remaining broke.
> 
> Regards,
> Donald


Not to rain on your parade there but there are plenty of $8000 surprises that can happen on a boat also. If you spend 18 years paying off your mortgage at least you have some equity. With the boat the money spent keeping it afloat is money poured directly into the ocean never to appreciate. I would research the long-term costs and financial implications of selling your home to own a boat before leaving TN.

As far as learning to sail if you are a self starter you can teach most of what you need to know yourself. It might help to take the basic classes but there may be a club as well or a yacht club that you can hang out at to start sailing without spending $2500 on lessons. If you are going to live on a boat there should be plenty of liveaboards in the marina wanting to go sailing, but not wanting to move their plants.

My marina has a size limitation on live aboards but that does not stop two people on 30 foot Catalina from living near my boat. Some marinas take their rules more seriously than others. I personally would rather live in WA over FL unless it was to live full time on a boat, either way you need to factor in heat or air conditioning into the equation.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

If you have the budget for lessons, perhaps drive down to FL and take a week long, liveaboard fast track cruising sailing course. I think Off Shore Sailing School does them in Tampa area. I'm sure there are others. On one hand, if you do that now, you would have a better sense of whether this will be as good as you hope. On the other hand, if you don't get to sailing soon thereafter, you'll lose all the training (i.e. learn fast, lose fast).

You mentioned being in debt for life. Does the boat purchase budget include financing the boat? If so, be careful. The boat can quickly be worth less than you owe, unless you have a significant down payment. Many (possibly most) marine lenders do not finance liveaboard boats, perhaps because the wear and tear is greater and value declines too fast. I'm not sure their logic is always good, but offer it for your research. Some will say one should never finance a boat. I don't always feel that way, especially if it's your home. Although, be sober about how it may work out. 

The final component of financial planning should recognize that some great percentage of cruisers and liveaboards eventually move back ashore, unless they die unexpectedly.

I'm only offering thoughts for planning. I hope it becomes everything you dream it to be. Good luck.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

jephotog said:


> Not to rain on your parade there but there are plenty of $8000 surprises that can happen on a boat also. If you spend 18 years paying off your mortgage at least you have some equity. With the boat the money spent keeping it afloat is money poured directly into the ocean never to appreciate. I would research the long-term costs and financial implications of selling your home to own a boat before leaving TN.
> 
> As far as learning to sail if you are a self starter you can teach most of what you need to know yourself. It might help to take the basic classes but there may be a club as well or a yacht club that you can hang out at to start sailing without spending $2500 on lessons. If you are going to live on a boat there should be plenty of liveaboards in the marina wanting to go sailing, but not wanting to move their plants.
> 
> My marina has a size limitation on live aboards but that does not stop two people on 30 foot Catalina from living near my boat. Some marinas take their rules more seriously than others. I personally would rather live in WA over FL unless it was to live full time on a boat, either way you need to factor in heat or air conditioning into the equation.


Jep is dead on in his comment...TN is about one of the cheapest states in the nation to live in, minus the big cities of course. No state income tax and a host of other things. You really need to check out WA and FL, if you think they will be any cheaper than TN. Whether in a house or on a boat.

We lived aboard on and off for the past decade or two, and we learned a lot. You still have expenses, and unless you are a real DIYer with access to tools, you WILL have to use a shop or yard at some point and that can cost a LOT and you will often need a place to live for a week or so, while the boat is at the yard.

I live in Middle TN and will be happy to talk with you about our experiences, if you want.

best of luck no matter what you choose to do.

dave


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## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

Hello Dave, thanks for your feedback and offer to talk about things, it's very much appreciated.

Yes, I know that housing in TN is far cheaper than either FL, or WA, but I was raised on the West coast, lived there until Dec 2004, love the ocean, miss it terribly, and as beautiful as it is here in TN, I don't like being landlocked, and I plan to move as soon as I can sell my house.

FYI: If the economy hadn't tanked in 2008, I would have sold my house back then.

* Where did you live aboard, and what kind of boat did you own? 

Appreciate your willingness to help,
Donald


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## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

Minnewaska said:


> If you have the budget for lessons, perhaps drive down to FL and take a week long, liveaboard fast track cruising sailing course. I think Off Shore Sailing School does them in Tampa area. I'm sure there are others. On one hand, if you do that now, you would have a better sense of whether this will be as good as you hope. On the other hand, if you don't get to sailing soon thereafter, you'll lose all the training (i.e. learn fast, lose fast).
> 
> You mentioned being in debt for life. Does the boat purchase budget include financing the boat? If so, be careful. The boat can quickly be worth less than you owe, unless you have a significant down payment. Many (possibly most) marine lenders do not finance liveaboard boats, perhaps because the wear and tear is greater and value declines too fast. I'm not sure their logic is always good, but offer it for your research. Some will say one should never finance a boat. I don't always feel that way, especially if it's your home. Although, be sober about how it may work out.
> 
> ...


What you are saying is all true, and is good advice, and yes, it is probably axiomatic, that most sailers eventually come back to land to die, but until then, I want to live on the ocean - for the first time in my life - while I am still capable of doing so.

Why? Because I was raised, and lived, near the sea most of my life, and it was only unforeseen circumstances, coupled with well-intentioned, yet bad advice, that prevented me from buying a live aboard sailboat years ago. So, I have decided that it is time to redeem that huge mistake, and [finally] eliminate that deep, lifelong *regret*.

FYI: I plan to take a basic keelboat course at a local lake based marina in Spring 2017, and after that, want to wangle some delivery, or race crew opportunities in the Gulf, and along the eastern seaboard. At least those are my hopes anyway.

Once again, I very much appreciate your feedback, and look forward to more in the future.

Oh, almost forgot, I plan to use the profits from the sale of my house to buy the boat outright. Unless of course, I can find a decent paying job again, in which case, I'll use that income to buy the boat, then rent out my place as soon as I move aboard. On the other hand, I just might sell my house anyway (-still thinking that one thru).

Regards,
Donald


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

DBerry said:


> ....Oh, almost forgot, I plan to use the profits from the sale of my house to buy the boat outright. Unless of course, I can find a decent paying job again, in which case, I'll use that income to buy the boat, then rent out my place as soon as I move aboard. On the other hand, I just might sell my house anyway (-still thinking that one thru)......


That is great that you would own the boat outright. Eliminating debt for retirement is a huge financial advantage.

I've been a long distance landlord and it can be tough. Tenants do not care for your property, like you would. They don't all pay, nor stay for the term of their lease. Systems fail (hot water heaters, furnace, roof) and they suck up an entire year or more surplus. It can be a great strategy to maintain a house to move back to, but you must have someone local who can tend to the property and watch the tenants and they cost money too.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I chime in... w/ my experience. I started my interest in sailing at 38 after a friend with a 31 sailboat asked me to help him with Spring prep and then asked me to partner with him on a 48'. I was enchanted enough to take sailing lessons and buy and read a dozen books and sailing and cruising and attend shows and immerse myself in a new world previously unknown to me. The cost of my learning efforts were not very much.

Before I purchased; Offshore school of Sailing; Learn to Sail - 3 day course, Books and mags, boat shows - cost $500

Friend backed out of the deal so armed with a little bit of knowledge and a LOT of interest I decided to buy a boat and went to the same broker who had a new 36' from the same builder as the 48'. It seemed huge and intimidating. My buddy and the surveyor told me the boat was fine. So with less than a few weeks of on water experience, I bought Shiva, a new 36' fractional rig. YIKES. I had money saved and thought this was great way to spend it. I paid 50% and got a mortgage. I was still working.

After I purchased - more books and mags and courses at the NY Planetarium in navigation, coastal, celestial, meteorology and so on - cost $500.

I sailed as much as I could with the expectation that one day I could sail to the Tropics. I upgraded the boat with all manner of equipment over the first 6 years, AP, refer, nav gear, radar, windlass, ground tackle, heating, solar panels, storm sails raft and so on... This was perhaps another $15,000.

Final test for me was to do offshore work. I entered the Marion Bermuda race in 91 with friend and the broker who sold me the boat and a few others. It cost about $1,500 (guess as I forgot). The race was not the point, the experience was. We hit some very very bad weather. Boat was fine... crew was all seasick! I was ready!

After giving most of my things away to charity and friends... I headed south 6 months after returning from the Bermuda... and moved aboard. I did not intend to remain a full time live aboard when I left. I had no long term plans other than to cruise and see what would develop. Lived aboard for 4 or 5 years having spent my savings and was forced to resume work in my former profession - architecture. Kept the boat... even listed it for sale for a few months when it looked too expensive to keep... but things changed got married and now we weekend sail and do some longer cruises. Not selling the boat. We talked about moving aboard and retiring in the tropics... Grand kids seem to be the present barrier.

I recommend to older salts that they use mechanical and electrical crew whenever possible... windlass, AP, furling systems, and an electric winch or similar for lifting... sails, motors, dinks and so on. Spirit remains but strength departs.

If I could do it... you can do it. PLAN AHEAD.... You've got a huge advantage now... the WWW. USE IT!

Good luck!


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Lots of OPINIONS in this thread, so I'll share mine;

Advantages of fractional versus mast-head rigs: I am a sailing instructor, I teach on both types of rigs. The "advantage" of the fractional is that it might, depending on how well trimmed the boat is, have more tendency to demonstrate weather helm. The "dis-advantage" is that the masts seem to be built lighter, and the head sail is smaller. I find the difference between the two rigs, unless you are racing, to be negligible. FWIW, the boat that I own is a mast head rig, and I have a 135% Genoa. 

Also, regarding the rig, I have taught on boats with fractional rigs and self-tending jibs, and I HATE THEM. {EDIT: To be clear, I HATE the self-tending apparatus. It consistently gives poor head sail shape.}

Fast-Track courses; These are designed to prepare someone that has no formal sailing vocabulary ("sheets, halyards, head up, fall off, tack, gybe," etc.) TO CHARTER A BOAT in a one week time frame. Realize that when you charter, you take the boat from anchorage to anchorage, and pick up a mooring. Frequently, charter boats are not allowed to pull up to a dock. They do not, in my opinion, prepare that person to live aboard, or to maintain their own boat. 

I suggest taking either the ASA or US Sailing curriculum ONE course at a time, and spending practice time between courses without an instructor. One of the schools that I work with redirected a client that wanted a "fast track" to instead, spread the ASA 101 (small boat with tiller), 103 (30 foot boat with a wheel), and 104 (42 foot boat) out over twelve days. The client lived aboard a boat (the 42 footer) for the entire time, and was allowed/encouraged to practice sail/anchor/dock/navigate/other, without an instructor aboard, in between each class. I was their 104 instructor, and feel that these clients really learned how to handle the boat.

Regarding budget; I bought my boat for ~35K, 7 years ago. I do all my own work (except canvas). Since buying the boat I have put more than $30K into the boat (canvas, drive line, electronics, pumps, engine repairs, auto-pilot, etc - NOT counting taxes, fees, slip, storage or insurance) yet today the boat is probably worth about $35K.

Good luck!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

eherlihy said:


> .....Fast-Track courses..... {snip}...... They do not, in my opinion, prepare that person to live aboard, or to maintain their own boat. .....


The recommendation was for neither. However, I have seen these courses take a complete zero to a fairly competent fair weather sailor in just that amount of time. My wife, in particular. I was amazed. Of course, she had the opportunity to put her training to immediate use, which is the real trick to fast learning. Naturally, there is a lot more to foul weather, offshore survival and boat maintenance that these course don't touch.

Nevertheless, the purpose of the recommendation was for the OP to have the experience of living aboard and sailing for a week, as we're discussing someone who plans sell their house and move aboard with no experience doing so. You cook, clean, sail and sleep aboard, with no vacation break, other than an occasional meal ashore. I think it's a pretty good way to quickly determine if the dream and reality are aligned.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I wouldn't recommend any radical life style change. Learn to sail... crew on other boats... look around with a broker at boats... visit docks and other boats and chat up sailors and ask questions. Don't rush into a boat and sell your house and move aboard lickity split. Take some time... this is an important decision and many other smaller decisions follow on from that one.

++++

Shiva is a fractional rig. She has a 130 genny and a rather large main. I now use a Milwaukee with a winch bit to raise the sail and this makes it effortless. Same with the electric windless. Anchoring is not a chore or a physical challenge.

Shiva has some slight weather helm but she can sail on her own if sails are trimmed right in moderate winds... with no one on the helm. The fractional rig and her high free board make her restless at anchor. I use a riding sail often to cut the yawing. Trimming the 130 is not a problem with the winches we have. She sails OK with main alone . But the mainsail needs a 8:1 and 4:1 main sheet. I don't think the same hull with a masthead rig sails much differently. I'd love to find out however. The fractional rig is taller too with a bendier mast.

I don't think fractional v masthead is the main consideration for OP.... more accommodation plan and simply learning how to sail and maintain and live on a sailboat...and how to get from complete novice to comfortable as a live aboard.


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## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

Minnewaska said:


> That is great that you would own the boat outright. Eliminating debt for retirement is a huge financial advantage.
> 
> I've been a long distance landlord and it can be tough. Tenants do not care for your property, like you would. They don't all pay, nor stay for the term of their lease. Systems fail (hot water heaters, furnace, roof) and they suck up an entire year or more surplus. It can be a great strategy to maintain a house to move back to, but you must have someone local who can tend to the property and watch the tenants and they cost money too.


Thanks for those insights, and in the interim, I plan to talk this over with a few property management companies about their services, and fees.

Question, do you regret being a long distance landlord, or is the hassle worth it to have that piece of real estate in your possession, and appreciating?


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## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

JimsCAL said:


> Some cpmments.
> 
> Don't get hung up on masthead vs. fractional, keel stepped vs. deck stepped. Concentrate on the boat and it it meets your requirements.
> 
> ...


Really appreciate your feedback Jim, your validation of C&C boats as crusier-racers, and suggestion to look at SVs that have much more of a cruiser specific layout. Regarding the last point, I guess I'll make my mind up about that once I start boat shopping with checkbook in back pocket.


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## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

Arcb said:


> If you are set on a racer cruiser and you like C&C's I don't think you could go too far wrong with a C&C.
> 
> My only thought is a 33-35' racer cruiser could be a lot of boat to learn to sail on. If you studied nautical science, the academic side should be a non issue for you and most any insurance company would recognise that as equal or above ASA, which is good for you as it could save you some bucks on courses. The problem is, you are still going to need to learn to sail from a practical perspective. Dinghy experience is a big plus.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your insights, and validations of my initial interest in C&C boats, and my projected purchasing budget.

I agree that a LOA < 33 ft is easier to learn with and manage initially, but I am also short on decades, so can only afford / have the time to get one boat.

FYI: I plan to take a couple of keelboat courses before my purchase, and then intersperse future classes with sailing experiences on my own boat.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I don't think it makes sense to buy a boat, put money into it, learn with it and the try to sell without taking a beating and find another larger to once again upgrade... they all need it.. or most do... Unless you move up to a much larger boat... there is no real difference in sailing and handling a 32' or a 36' or a 38'. But there could be a lot of difference in volume, stowage, head room... cockpit size and motion in a sea way. Of course, larger are more to maintain... 

Once again... if I could start and essentially learn on a 36' with only very very very limited on water experience... YOU can do it as well. Look for a well found boat that the owner is forced to sell for some reason... divorce or moving... or something like that. I think it's a buyer's market. There are many good values to be had....and some boats hold value more than others.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

DBerry said:


> .....Question, do you regret being a long distance landlord, or is the hassle worth it to have that piece of real estate in your possession, and appreciating?


Well, I didn't say I regretted it, but it's not an easy way to make a buck or keep a property. First, it actually decline in value during the term that I owned it, then rebounded. At one point, I might have been upside down to what I owed. Second, there were years that it was a cash flow drain, when it needed a major repair. I learned this lesson. Your tenants will treat your property about two steps below how you do. Give them the slightest reason to say you didn't keep it perfect, or fix something quickly enough, and they'll treat the property as disposable.

When I decided to sell, I had to wait for the last tenant to vacate and literally gut the place. All carpets, interior doors and kitchen cabinetry. All new, along with paint and trim work. Tenants are brutal.

In your case, I might suggest to give it a try for a year, if you don't need to borrow money to buy the boat. If the boat doesn't work out, you can always move back. If you are certain you'll never move back to TN, in any circumstance, I would sell it.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Hey, I bought a C&C 33 in need of a lot of work but I own it outright, and am living aboard in New York, certainly not a tax-free state, but where I am. A few thoughts, C&C's are great sailing boats and made very well, but tend to be more "Racer/Cruiser" than "Cruiser/Racer" and that might not be a big deal for vacationing and short term cruises, but storage is tight. I still own a house that the X is living in so I can store stuff there. I would look for a boat that meets your living requirements first. You don't want a slug but the reality of it is for a liveabord sailing qualities may well not be the first concern. Get on as many boats as you can, including some bigger and some smaller than you want as well as some more than your budget and less. I am looking to move up soon. (If you want a really good deal on a C&C 33 project boat let me know) Also when you start to make your move, make sure you have a slip ready. Don't ask over the phone if they allow liveaboards, only ask in person. Show up well dressed, clean shaven and looking as professional as possible. Don't use the phrase liveaboard, but simply state that you will be staying aboard the boat much of the time. I would say I was retired, and want to have a boat as our base of operations where ever you are looking. Don't lie, but I would not use the phrase liveaboard as in many places it has a bad connotation. 

$36,000 is a decent budget as long as your handy with repairs. Figure look for a boat listed in the 30,000 to 35,000 range and try to get it for mid to upper $20's so you have some repair and upgrade budget.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

Move to Florida and buy a boat here, skip the brokers and prowl craigslist and marinas, tons of unused sailboats where the owners have gotten older or passed away and family wants to get out of slip or storage payments - there are lots of used C&C's , Cal's, Ericsons that would fit the bill. Stay away from fixer uppers - looked for boats in good shape but just have not been updated - ones that don't have new electronics - that sort of thing - those are easily upgraded. You should be able to find a boat in good shape that fits your criteria for under $20K - liveaboard slip is going to cost you $12-$15 foot in average priced areas


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

cdy said:


> Move to Florida and buy a boat here, skip the brokers and prowl craigslist and marinas, tons of unused sailboats where the owners have gotten older or passed away and family wants to get out of slip or storage payments - there are lots of used C&C's , Cal's, Ericsons that would fit the bill. Stay away from fixer uppers - looked for boats in good shape but just have not been updated - ones that don't have new electronics - that sort of thing - those are easily upgraded. You should be able to find a boat in good shape that fits your criteria for under $20K - liveaboard slip is going to cost you $12-$15 foot in average priced areas


I live up in the Adirondacks and the used car dealers never sell cars from the area.. The reason is road salt... vehicles don't last long here.

I wonder, isn't there a similar problem/situation in Florida? Wouldn't it be better to buy a 'fresh water' boat from the great lakes and sail it down there?


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## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

titustiger27 said:


> You sound like me... to some extent, when I as 25.. I decided I wanted to live on a sailboat, _when I had never been on a say boat._ I still was thinking this after owning a 13 ft. boat, but that was nowhere close to living on a sailboat.
> 
> Not clear if you have any sailing experience. but it might be a good idea to find a marina and see if you can crew on a boat. Might give you some insight to what kind of boat you may want... maybe a smaller boat would work for you.
> 
> Do you have or need a job? is it something you can do from a boat?


I have enough *sailing experience*, i.e., dinghies, and crewing aboard a brigantine, and barquentine for a summer, to know that I love sailing. And although I have wanted to live aboard a sailboat since I was in my early 20s, it was never possible due to educational goals, career, and marriage. However, none of these inhibiting factors exist anymore, so here I am in this forum seeking input.

Can I do work from a boat? I wish, however I took an *early retirement* - for less money of course - from a very stressful job, but did so, because in my former line of work, retirees, especially males, tend to die within a few years of 'pulling the plug'. Many want more money, I prefer a chance to live longer.

Your idea about *crewing* is a good one, and something that I have been thinking about. In fact, I plan to take one or two basic keelboat courses in Spring 2017, and then hope to find crewing opportunities for deliveries, and races.

*Question*: What are some of the better ways of finding crewing opportunities, other than just showing up at seaside marinas and asking? I currently live in east TN, and I can't do that.

Are there websites that advertise potential crewing opportunities?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There must be some keelboat lake sailing in TN. Much easier to get a spot as rail meat for a few hours, than a delivery spot for multiple days. When you're not returning to shore, the stakes are higher that you become a liability. Neither of you know if you'll be seasick or hate each other. Deliver gigs are hard to get, without a resume and references. However, there is always hope. There is a crew wanted forum on this website.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

DBerry said:


> ** -- snip --- }
> 
> *Question*: What are some of the better ways of finding crewing opportunities, other than just showing up at seaside marinas and asking? I currently live in east TN, and I can't do that.
> 
> Are there websites that advertise potential crewing opportunities?


I think the others here can be more helpful with this.

But a couple suggestions

1) call the local sailing club, if three is one. Tell them your interest and see if they can connect you to a captain

2) look at https://www.meetup.com/ for your area

3) maybe place an ad on Craigslist

take a sailing vacation where you learn to sail as well (I think this has been suggested a couple times)


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Forget about spending money on learning how to sail .... it ain't rocket science and you can learn (with help) from people you meet wherever you end up. Spend your money on a small diesel course and a marine electrical course.
Boats are complicated and having to pay a yard guy $100/hr for four hours to install a battery switch and the myriad of other small jobs will break the bank in a hurry. Take a look at Marine Survey 101, it may give you some idea as to what you may be up against.

Life is too short not to go for it but a little preparation is wise.


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## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

SanderO said:


> I chime in... w/ my experience. I started my interest in sailing at 38 after a friend with a 31 sailboat asked me to help him with Spring prep and then asked me to partner with him on a 48'. I was enchanted enough to take sailing lessons and buy and read a dozen books and sailing and cruising and attend shows and immerse myself in a new world previously unknown to me. The cost of my learning efforts were not very much.
> 
> Before I purchased; Offshore school of Sailing; Learn to Sail - 3 day course, Books and mags, boat shows - cost $500
> 
> ...


Really appreciate that feedback, especially because you started out with, and still have that 38 footer. Like you, a 30 something foot boat does not intimidate me, and I also plan to take the basic keelboat courses before my purchase, and then practice, practice, practice, and slowly increase the challenges in small increments.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

boatpoker said:


> Forget about spending money on learning how to sail .... it ain't rocket science and you can learn (with help) from people you meet wherever you end up. Spend your money on a small diesel course and a marine electrical course.
> Boats are complicated and having to pay a yard guy $100/hr for four hours to install a battery switch and the myriad of other small jobs will break the bank in a hurry. Take a look at Marine Survey 101, it may give you some idea as to what you may be up against.
> 
> Life is too short not to go for it but a little preparation is wise.


Good advice! Learned that lesson this year having a fuel pump installed.

Any recommendations for a course in Toronto?

Thanks!
Chris


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Ninefingers said:


> Good advice! Learned that lesson this year having a fuel pump installed.
> 
> Any recommendations for a course in Toronto?
> 
> ...


Call my buddy Craig Morley. He is a SAMS Accredited surveyor and a licensed diesel mechanic. Craig runs diesel courses a couple of time a year at Mimico Cruising Club.

We are currently in Lucaya


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

boatpoker said:


> Call my buddy Craig Morley. Craig runs diesel courses a couple of time a year at Mimico Cruising Club.


Do you know of any courses in Montreal? Or would Nigel Calders book be a good alternative?
thanks
jon


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

longjonsilver said:


> Do you know of any courses in Montreal? Or would Nigel Calders book be a good alternative?
> thanks
> jon


Sorry Jon, don't know of anyone in Montreal but almost every community college has one.
Nigel's book is excellent except where he states that algae can grow in diesel fuel, this is biologically impossible.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

You might contact or put a notice on this and other sailing forums that you are willing to do spring prep work for free... essentially to get experience and learning and probably end up with an invite to crew. I don't like a lot of the Spring prep work but I do enjoy chatting with other sailors who have come to work on their boats... most of whom I didn't know before. And these salts will give me a hand if I ask for something usually. Very friendly knowledgeable bunch of people. Unfortunately once we get splashed and not in close proximity we usually lose touch, but not always.

My own introduction to boats began in a boat yard doing Spring prep for an old friend who rewarded me with an offer to sail. And so it began.

Lodging may be a problem but you might be able to get an offer to stay on board on the hard during the work and if you meet other sailors maybe work for them for a bit too and soon you'll have a bunch of invites and a lot of hands on boat maintenance experience. Most owners would welcome a hand. Give it a try and tell us how it works out.


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## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

Minnewaska said:


> The recommendation was for neither. However, I have seen these courses take a complete zero to a fairly competent fair weather sailor in just that amount of time. My wife, in particular. I was amazed. Of course, she had the opportunity to put her training to immediate use, which is the real trick to fast learning. Naturally, there is a lot more to foul weather, offshore survival and boat maintenance that these course don't touch.
> 
> Nevertheless, the purpose of the recommendation was for the OP to have the experience of living aboard and sailing for a week, as we're discussing someone who plans sell their house and move aboard with no experience doing so. You cook, clean, sail and sleep aboard, with no vacation break, other than an occasional meal ashore. I think it's a pretty good way to quickly determine if the dream and reality are aligned.


Yep, exactly why I want to take those intro courses. Once I buy my boat, and get a few months of sailing under my belt, then I want to take some NAV courses, including learning to use a sextant. I am really looking forward to mastering that traditional mariners tool, plotting my course on paper charts, and then comparing my position with a GPS plotter.
:cut_out_animated_em


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## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

SanderO said:


> You might contact or put a notice on this and other sailing forums that you are willing to do spring prep work for free... essentially to get experience and learning and probably end up with an invite to crew. I don't like a lot of the Spring prep work but I do enjoy chatting with other sailors who have come to work on their boats... most of whom I didn't know before. And these salts will give me a hand if I ask for something usually. Very friendly knowledgeable bunch of people. Unfortunately once we get splashed and not in close proximity we usually lose touch, but not always.
> 
> My own introduction to boats began in a boat yard doing Spring prep for an old friend who rewarded me with an offer to sail. And so it began.
> 
> Lodging may be a problem but you might be able to get an offer to stay on board on the hard during the work and if you meet other sailors maybe work for them for a bit too and soon you'll have a bunch of invites and a lot of hands on boat maintenance experience. Most owners would welcome a hand. Give it a try and tell us how it works out.


Wow, great suggestions on how to get to know the old salts, and maybe get some crew offers. Think I'll try that in a few months here at my local lakeside marina. * Just emailed my local marina with offer of FREE help this coming Spring. *
:smile


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## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

titustiger27 said:


> I think the others here can be more helpful with this.
> 
> But a couple suggestions
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice, will check into that.


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## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

krisscross said:


> My advice would be to buy a boat that costs 20K max. That will limit your risk and give you extra cushion for unexpected expenses (you can definitely expect them).
> As to the choice of the boat: C&C had a lot of good boats so it is a good start but I would spend as much time as possible looking at boats in real life. They do look different up close. It's a buyers market for used sailboats these days so you can afford to be picky.
> And last thing: DON"T BUY A PROJECT BOAT.
> You will spend too much time and money fixing it. There are plenty of decent boats out there.


I will definitely keep your budget advice in mind, however, I can promise you here, and now that I will *not* buy a project boat. 
:2 boat:


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## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

SanderO said:


> I wouldn't recommend any radical life style change. Learn to sail... crew on other boats... look around with a broker at boats... visit docks and other boats and chat up sailors and ask questions. Don't rush into a boat and sell your house and move aboard lickity split. Take some time... this is an important decision and many other smaller decisions follow on from that one.
> 
> ++++
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input about fractional vs mast-stepped rigs, and will focus on the other things you mentioned.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

DBerry said:


> Wow, great suggestions on how to get to know the old salts, and maybe get some crew offers. Think I'll try that in a few months here at my local lakeside marina. * Just emailed my local marina with offer of FREE help this coming Spring. *
> :smile


I have a two man project to replace the teak rub rails on both sides. Teak is in the shop... I await Spring haul out to remove the existing and replace and of course the bottom. And then setting up the boat again... putting on the sails, running rigging, reefing lines and so forth. I then have to sail (175mi) from New Rochelle NY to Portsmouth RI to swap the dink for a new one. If these *adventures* interest you, please contact me via PM.


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## DBerry (Jun 8, 2015)

SanderO said:


> I have a two man project to replace the teak run rails on both sides. Teak is in the shop... I await Spring haul out to remove the existing and replace and of course the bottom. And then setting up the boat again... putting on the sails, running rigging, reefing lines and so forth. I then have to sail (175mi) from New Rochelle NY to Portsmouth RI to sway the dink for a new one. If these *adventures* interest you, please contact me via PM.


Sounds great, and if my upcoming job retraining doesn't interfere with your haul out, I'd be more than happy to help - for FREE - just to get that invaluable experience.


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