# Alcohol Stove and Heater



## markarsenal (Mar 23, 2015)

As I "moved into" my boat I discovered an old alcohol heater, which seems to be the same brand and the same mechanics as the alcohol stove in my galley (Origo 3000).

I haven't seen many positive reviews of alcohol appliances here or anywhere. I'm personally trying to decide whether to start investing in new heating and cooking appliances or if it would serve me well to buy some fuel for these existing ones and try them out for a while. But before I invest in that...

Anyone spent much time living aboard or cruising for a long time with an alcohol cooker and/or heater? How well do they heat/how hot do they get (eg, could I run a pressure cooker pot on it?) - how efficient is the fuel? If I was gonna go anchor out in the boonies for a week in northern BC in November would I be able to fit enuf fuel on my boat?

I'm sure propane and kerosene demand the same questions - which fuel is ultimately best to go with in terms of efficiency and how many stores I could keep aboard for long periods away from civilization? And how should I weigh that against the ease of having existing appliances which are alcohol fueled?


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## arvicola-amphibius (Apr 14, 2012)

I assume that by alcohol you are referring to what we call methylated spirits here in the antipodes?

I have always used metho cookers because they are the safest on board and particularly at sea. A bucket of seawater will snuff out a metho fire, whereas other fuels don't mix well with water.
Downside is there is no oven so baking is out. All food is either boiled, fried or grilled which can be limiting if you are the gourmet cook type (which I am not).

Since moving to colder climes, I have also bought a small Origo heater for the cabin and found it very effective. Admittedly mine is a small cabin.

Downside of this is that it positively eats metho, and that is not cheap .
Recently I have tried upending a terracotta plant pot on the cooker with the flame on real low. It is not as effective as the dedicated cabin heater, but takes the chill off for less that half the fuel consumption.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Mark-

I believe you've found an Origo HeatPal. Yes, it uses the same canister as your stove.

The pro's:
The stove and heater use the same fuel.
They are both unpressurized (safer)

The con's:
These may not cook fast enough or provide enough heat for your tastes.

I have a Coleman Black Cat, catalytic propane heater. I was quite surprised to learn that the Origo HeatPal does a better job of heating my cabin. It is rated to put out more BTU's, and seems to live up to that claim.

There are other propane heaters that might be better than my Coleman, such as the Mr. Heater, Buddy propane heater.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

We have an Origo alcohol heater on our boat. Works as advertised. Heats our 37-footer well while cruising Lake Superior's cold waters, although we only use it on passage or when weather turns damp and cold. IOW we use it occasionally, but we do go out for months at a time. 

If I needed a heat source to be running all the time I would look at a diesel burner of some sort. So far we've managed just fine with just the Origo.


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## PitApe (Feb 28, 2015)

The Origo heaters work fine. In fact, if you already have an Origo stove you can just set an inverted flower pot (or a cast iron Dutch oven) on top of it and use the stove as a heater. That way your "heater" will already be secured, and less likely to cause problems (getting under foot, etc.). Alcohol stoves and heaters do add to the moisture inside the boat if used on a continuous basis, but probably no more so than the moisture your own breath and perspiration. As a short-term/occasional heater the added moisture is no big deal.

If moisture/condensation become a problem the only real solutions are either electric heat (at the dock) or a vented heater of some sort. If you're going to go to the trouble of installing the latter, I would go with a vented diesel unit. They're the most efficient/cheapest to run.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

If you have the space for it, Origo does make a stove/oven combination.

MARINE AIR Origo 6000 Oven With Stove | West Marine

Google Origo 6000 for lots of information.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Biggest issue with the Orgo heater that I have seen reported is that they produce a LOT of moisture, so they will aggravate condensation. It is also unventilated so if the boat is sealed up and perhaps has shrink wrap on it, will increase carbon monoxide levels.

As far as the stove goes, they are very good, but don't get as hot as a propane stove. Pressurized alcohol stoves are the ones that have a bad reputation and will flair up. Fuel can be an issue, but you would have to go through a lot of alcohol before paying for a propane install. So as long as your expectation is not that of a commercial stove you should be well served by an Orgo stove. Good stuff.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

miatapaul said:


> Biggest issue with the Orgo heater that I have seen reported is that they produce a LOT of moisture, so they will aggravate condensation. It is also unventilated so if the boat is sealed up and perhaps has shrink wrap on it, will increase carbon monoxide levels.
> 
> As far as the stove goes, they are very good, but don't get as hot as a propane stove. Pressurized alcohol stoves are the ones that have a bad reputation and will flair up. Fuel can be an issue, but you would have to go through a lot of alcohol before paying for a propane install. So as long as your expectation is not that of a commercial stove you should be well served by an Orgo stove. Good stuff.


i have a pressurized alcohol stove and a diesel heater
the heater takes a long time to get really going and yes the stove will flare up if not preheated properly but the heat produced by the stove is almost as good as propane. so fair trade off


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The wick type alcohol appliances are preferrable to the pressurized ones if only for convenience and safety (fewer flare-ups, easier lighting). Be sure to seal the cannisters between uses to avoid loss through evaporation. You can use inexpensive methyl hydrate rather than the 'special' fuel for pressurized units.

As with any open flame/unvented appliance, moisture is going to be an issue as is possible CO buildup in an unvented cabin space.. they also use up ambient oxygen, but most boats 'leak' enough that that's not likely a real concern.

I think you can cook anything with alcohol, some things will simply take a little longer (only a real issue for that first cup of coffee in the morning )

From a storage perspective I think it's pretty hard to beat propane... or diesel if you already have it on board.


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## cthoops (Apr 30, 2012)

We picked up an Origo 3000 on ebay last spring. We are 100% satisfied with it. We like it enough that when we get the big boat for full-time cruising, we'll be installing an Origo 6000 if it doesn't already have one. 

You shouldn't have any problems storing enough alcohol for a week. We went out for two weeks last September, used it every day, and barely dipped into the extra can that we had brought with us. Obviously you would use more if you were also heating with it, but I still can't imagine you'd have a storage issue.

I like the idea of inverting a flower pot over the stove to act as a heater. We'll definitely be putting that into use this season.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

miatapaul said:


> Biggest issue with the Orgo heater that I have seen reported is that they produce a LOT of moisture, so they will aggravate condensation. It is also unventilated so if the boat is sealed up and perhaps has shrink wrap on it, will increase carbon monoxide levels.
> 
> .


Actually denatured alcohol will not produce significant carbon monoxide
Hense the reason it is a good marine heating fuel for sailboats


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

'significant carbon monoxide' Does that mean that only the finger nails on your left hand turn pink?


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

If I remember my high school science correctly burning alcohol produces water and co2, carbon monoxide is a byproduct of burning petroleum based fuels


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## arvicola-amphibius (Apr 14, 2012)

Thanks for that info - I have been slightly concerned about Carbon Monoxide poisoning, though so far I wake up OK. Any headache I suffer is from the rum bottle not the Origo.
With the inverted flower pot over the burner, make sure that it has a hole in the base and is a real clay pot, not imitation clay! Some of the plastic lookalikes from China are quite convincing, except for the weight.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

newhaul said:


> If I remember my high school science correctly burning alcohol produces water and co2, carbon monoxide is a byproduct of burning petroleum based fuels


If burning a fuel produces CO2 then burning that fuel poorly or incompletely can produce CO. That's the essence of poor combustion- the failure to fully react any C and O2 into CO2.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Faster said:


> If burning a fuel produces CO2 then burning that fuel poorly or incompletely can produce CO. That's the essence of poor combustion- the failure to fully react any C and O2 into CO2.


Exactly

Complete hydrocarbon combustion results in carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O). Carbon monoxide (CO) is the product of incomplete combustion. Can happen with any hydrocarbon, and is usually due to inadequate oxygen (O2) in the reaction. The easy visual sign of incomplete combustion is yellow or smoking flame.


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## hriehl1 (Aug 8, 2007)

The comment about baking on an alcohol (or any) stovetop design is not correct. Look into the Omnia oven, a stovetop baker that works very well. 

Items of similar design are used routinely in the Mideast; I bought some in Jordan for all of $8 each and they'll bake anything. We've had lots of onboard fun doing roasts, meatloaf, upside down cakes, whatever. My wife and I try to out-do each other with what we can bake over an open burner in an $8 oven.

Onboard Fun.


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## PitApe (Feb 28, 2015)

hriehl1 said:


> The comment about baking on an alcohol (or any) stovetop design is not correct. Look into the Omnia oven, a stovetop baker that works very well.
> 
> Items of similar design are used routinely in the Mideast; I bought some in Jordan for all of $8 each and they'll bake anything. We've had lots of onboard fun doing roasts, meatloaf, upside down cakes, whatever. My wife and I try to out-do each other with what we can bake over an open burner in an $8 oven.
> 
> Onboard Fun.


A cast iron Dutch oven will also work (once you get used to it).


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Oh, I should have also mentioned-

It is very helpful to have the proper cookware when cooking with alcohol. Since the BTU output IS lower, cheap, thin pots shed heat too quickly, making it difficult to boil water, etc and this wastes expensive fuel.

Use quality cast-iron, and/or thick bottom, copper-clad pots and pans. These retain heat and save fuel. They are much less frustrating to cook with.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> Exactly
> 
> Complete hydrocarbon combustion results in carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O). Carbon monoxide (CO) is the product of incomplete combustion. Can happen with any hydrocarbon, and is usually due to inadequate oxygen (O2) in the reaction. The easy visual sign of incomplete combustion is yellow or smoking flame.


OK here ya go you are correct that hydrocarbon fuels produce carbon monoxide. However ethanol or denatured alcohol is not a hydrocarbon.
Burning of alcohol in your stove produces water and co2 
Here is a quote from wiki " During combustion ethanol reacts with oxygen to produce carbon dioxide, water, and heat:

C2H5OH + 3 O2 → 2 CO2 + 3 H2O + heat

Here's another quote from the BBC
Ethanol, C2H5OH, is not a hydrocarbon because it contains oxygen as well as hydrogen and carbon.
BBC - GCSE Bitesize: Biofuels


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Hydrocarbon or no...

The end product of CO2 is predicated on sufficient Oxygen availability for the reaction to go to completion.

If oxygen is in short supply, or the fuel/air mixture is inefficient or inadequate, the reaction fails to complete with the resultant formation of CO. 

IMO a stovetop burner is not a particularly efficient mixer, and covering a burner with a flowerpot for heating can't be helping that.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Actually the end produce of water is dependant on the additional molecules of oxygen.
Lack of sufficient oxygen would not result in incomplete combustion it would instead result in lack of combustion period


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

newhaul said:


> OK here ya go you are correct that hydrocarbon fuels produce carbon monoxide. However ethanol or denatured alcohol is not a hydrocarbon.
> Burning of alcohol in your stove produces water and co2
> Here is a quote from wiki " During combustion ethanol reacts with oxygen to produce carbon dioxide, water, and heat:
> 
> ...


Right ... alcohols are not hydrocarbons. Going a bit too fast. My bad. It's still a carbon-oxygent combustion reaction that will produce CO2 and H2O in complete combustion, but as far as I recall from my chemistry, can produce CO in the absence of sufficient O2.


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## PitApe (Feb 28, 2015)

newhaul said:


> Actually the end produce of water is dependant on the additional molecules of oxygen.
> Lack of sufficient oxygen would not result in incomplete combustion it would instead result in lack of combustion period


Nope. The combustion of ANY organic compound can produce CO, under the right (or wrong, depending how you look at it) conditions. Long chain hydrocarbons and/or those with lots of double C=C bonds (i.e., unsaturated) are more apt to produce CO, but combustion of ANY organic compound can produce CO. That said, ethanol and methanol are unlikely to produce much CO in any but the most extreme conditions. However it could happen, and there are cases where people have had CO poisoning from using an alcohol stove in extremely well sealed environments (e.g., snow caves).


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

newhaul said:


> Actually the end produce of water is dependant on the additional molecules of oxygen.
> Lack of sufficient oxygen would not result in incomplete combustion it would instead result in lack of combustion period


Sorry, but that's just not true.

H20 is the result of combination of Hydrogen and O2... CO2 the result of C and O2... plus heat, of course and the inert load of N2 that is in the air.

"Stoichiometric" combustion occurs when there is exactly the right amount of O2 available for the amount of fuel, good and complete combustion results in by products of H20, CO2 with no free O2 remaining in the flue gases.

Sub-stoichiometric conditions most certainly lead to the formation of CO, (and reduced CO2) and in fact trace levels of CO are measurable even in good, efficient industrial combustion conditions. As CO is a combustible, great measures are taken to avoid concentrations of CO at furnace outlets - sub-stoich conditions can lead to explosions due to excess CO and other combustibles that were not properly consumed in the furnace itself.


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## PitApe (Feb 28, 2015)

Faster said:


> Sorry, but that's just not true.
> 
> H20 is the result of combination of Hydrogen and O2... CO2 the result of C and O2... plus heat, of course and the inert load of N2 that is in the air.
> 
> ...


Yikes!! Stoichiometry?!?!?! I'm having some serious Freshman Chemistry flashbacks!!


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## BMLipiec (Feb 3, 2009)

Mark,
We have been cruising full time in Mexico for the last 6 months with an Origo 6000 stove, use it every day and we love it. I wouldn't go back to propane if you gave it to me free. 

It isn't quite as hot as propane as people point out, but unless you timed it side by side I can't really tell the difference. Besides, I don't have a job to be late for, so what is the hurry. Heat management is good and easy to simmer. It is also safer than propane, as it is basically just a big Zippo lighter.

Some people report smell issues, but we haven't had a problem, even with different brands of alcohol. We also haven't had a moisture problem either, but we haven't used it in the winter up north.

I have two round motorcycle fuel canisters that are nearly the same footprint as my two 20 lb propane tanks and I store them in the same locker. 
We use 1-2 gallons of alcohol per month and have been able to easily find it here in Mexico hardware stores (labeled Alcohol Industrial here). Home Depot sells it in the states. When in a Marina with electrical hook ups I boil my morning water for coffee with an electric heater to save on fuel.

Filling the canisters weekly (or so) is more involved than propane (plug it in and forget it), but not difficult. Besides, unlike trying to guess how much propane I have left I can easily see how much alcohol is in my tank and know exactly how quickly I'm using it.

Replacing the alcohol is way easier than refilling a propane tank. Especially, when you do not have a car. Try bringing a propane tank on the bus or in a taxi - it can be done, but not always. Although, some marinas here in La Paz have a tank drop off day, where they fill it and bring it back. I grab a couple of liter bottles and carry it in my backpack back to the boat.

I bought a small quart size bottle with a small spout from a radio control car/plane store used to fill their tiny tanks, which makes filling the Origo canisters fast and easy (buy 2). I leave the 6 gallon tanks in the locker, dip a hose into it and pump the fuel into the small bottles using a hand fuel bulb pump (the kind for priming outboard motors).

The stove itself is super simple and reliable. I replaced our propane stove when I no longer trusted the integrity of some of the components, and a propane system has a ton - hoses, fittings, regulator, solenoid, internal stove fittings, propane alarm, bilge blower, etc. Also, I know of two people who couldn't use their stove after their propane solenoid quit working.

For cruising out away from boat yards and marine stores I wanted something simple, reliable and safe. Most of my gear selections for the boat have been based on that principle, and the Origo has not disappointed. People thought I was crazy and told me I'd hate it or catch my boat on fire. None of them had ever used an Origo. They were merely repeating stories about the old pressurized stoves. I have yet to meet someone who HAS an Origo and doesn't like it. I know at least a half dozen people down here using it daily who really like it. Try it for awhile, and see if you like it.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

There is a lot of confusion about alcohol as a stove fuel and how "hot" it is. First, in terms of the flame temperature, it's a bit lower but only by a few percent compared to propane or natural gas. Not enough to even notice when cooking. Second it's heating value (Btu/lb) is indeed lower, but that only means it takes more alcohol to do a certain amount of heating compared to propane. And it does mean you have to carry more pounds of the stuff compared to propane. Third is the rated heat output of the burners (which is not a characteristic of the fuel itself but of the stove). The rated output (in Btu/hr) of the Origo burners is similar to that of the burners in most propane stoves. Some propane burners are rated for a bit more, some for a bit less. So basically a wash.

I've used pressurized alcohol (Kenyon), unpressurized alcolhol (Origo) and propane on my various boats over the years. The Origo was a huge step up from the Kenyon it replaced. My current boat has propane and it's convenient, but it does require you to be careful and maintain the system. I would have no problem going back to an Origo even after having used propane for several years now.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Agree with you, Jim.. but suspect you'd not be quite so eager to go back to the pressurized Kenyon !


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I used a pressurized Kenyon for years. I would have no hesitation using one again if my cruising was relatively short term (a couple of months at a time) in places where I could purchase the fuel relatively easy.

For me, the key reason for going for a propane system is energy density and fuel storage. I had zero problems cooking with my old Kenyon.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Faster said:


> Agree with you, Jim.. but suspect you'd not be quite so eager to go back to the pressurized Kenyon !


Correct. I got quite good at rebuilding burners, at diagnosing issues, and the preheat/lightoff process became second nature, but they still were a lot of trouble. The Origo was just so much less hassle.


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## hriehl1 (Aug 8, 2007)

Stove threads are almost as heated (pun intended) as anchor threads. But I have a Kenyon that was easily converted to kerosene that is tough to beat for simplicity and economy.

I've seen probably 20 internet references to pressurized stove flare-ups. Does this refer to the preheating of the burner? Is anyone surprised or unaware that an open cup of alcohol will flare a bit? It is like beefing that one's 2-stroke is loud and smokey... Well duhhh!


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

I use a Kenyon pressure alcohol stove on my islander never had a problem with it just do maintance every spring and fall


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## Allegro (Jun 3, 2015)

I recently bought a 1969 Columbia 36 with an Origo 3000 non-pressurized 2-burner alcohol stove. The stove works much better than I expected for cooking...a little slower than propane camp stoves, but not enough to be a problem. I was surprised, though, to discover that the alcohol stove puts out a fair amount of carbon monoxide. I put two carbon monoxide detectors on the boat at the time of the pre-purchase sea trial, because the engine exhaust needed repairs before I bought the boat, and I wanted to make sure it was really repaired. These detectors have LCD displays to show the actual level of carbon monoxide.

What I've found, after several stove uses, is that if the cabin is all closed up (it's been chilly up on Lake Superior in May), after 10-15 minutes of operation of one burner on the alcohol stove, the carbon monoxide level goes from zero up to about 45-60 ppm. This isn't enough to sound the alarm on the detectors, the manufacturer says that at a level of 70 ppm, the alarm will sound after 60-240 minutes. The Consumer Product Safety Commission says most people will not have any symptoms from prolonged exposure to carbon monoxide levels up to 70 ppm. Of course "not have any symptoms" isn't the same as "there are no ill effects on your health".

The alcohol stove produced a little bit of odor, but not too bad. And it either diminished over time or we got used to it.

Last week I bought a Mr. Heater Buddy Heater which runs on 1-lb propane cylinders to take the chill off the cabin. It was interesting to see that even when run on the high setting for over an hour with the cabin closed up, this unvented heater never caused the carbon monoxide detectors to budge from 0 ppm.

Have others heard of any differences in odor or carbon monoxide output with different types of alcohol in the stove? I bought the stuff in a 1-gallon metal can from our local building supply store, in their paint department. The label on the can said it could be used as stove fuel. I think it was methanol. Is ethanol any better, or are other types of alcohol fuel available/better? Where do you buy it?


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## grnrngr (Oct 8, 2014)

Very nice little stoves, we have several for the club. The only problem we've had, like with any rental equipment, is the users don't always read the instructions. The lid won't open or close properly if the knob isn't in the "OFF" position, but rather than read how to do it right, they force the unit apart or slam it back together, and things get bent. We have a 1500 that has to be upside down for the burner plate to slide back and forth, and because they're spot welded together, no way to get to the internals to determine and repair the problem. It's a backup for now, but one of these days I'll call Dometic for their advice. Just thought of another likely rental related issue, a 3000 sat unused for a long time with the neoprene covers over the fuel canisters. Over the years the neoprene degraded and stuck like glue to both the top of the canisters and the underside of the stove, it took quite a while to scrape it off and clean the unit. Neither of these issues are likely to be a concern for a private user because A) you'll probably use it more than once every other year and B) you'll likely read the instructions for use and do it right.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Allegro said:


> Have others heard of any differences in odor or carbon monoxide output with different types of alcohol in the stove? I bought the stuff in a 1-gallon metal can from our local building supply store, in their paint department. The label on the can said it could be used as stove fuel. I think it was methanol. Is ethanol any better, or are other types of alcohol fuel available/better? Where do you buy it?


The stuff sold as stove fuel is denatured ethanol, not methanol. I think there is some minor difference from brand to brand, but it's not significant. You can buy stove fuel from the marine retailers but its expensive. Nothing wrong with the stuff from the hardware store.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Allegro said:


> What I've found, after several stove uses, is that if the cabin is all closed up (it's been chilly up on Lake Superior in May), after 10-15 minutes of operation of one burner on the alcohol stove, the carbon monoxide level goes from zero up to about 45-60 ppm. This isn't enough to sound the alarm on the detectors, the manufacturer says that at a level of 70 ppm, the alarm will sound after 60-240 minutes. The Consumer Product Safety Commission says most people will not have any symptoms from prolonged exposure to carbon monoxide levels up to 70 ppm. Of course "not have any symptoms" isn't the same as "there are no ill effects on your health".


This is very interesting and useful info Allegro. Given that CO is produced during incomplete combustion I wonder if your fuel was a lower quality formulation with perhaps more impurities. Or maybe your burner was somehow being starved for O2. Did you notice any yellow flame or smoke?

Complete combustion:


C2H6O + 3O2 → 2CO2 + 3H2O (ethanol)

2CH3OH + 3O2 → 2CO2 + 4H2O (methanol)

P.S. Is this the Allegro with the musical duo? If so, nice to see you here. Wish we were still on Superior.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have used Origo alcohol stoves since 1988 and I really like them. They are way too easy to own, easy to operate, burn clean, and are cheap to operate if you factor in some of the maintenance costs that I have experienced with Propane systems. If you buy decent quality fuel they do not smell and do not produce carbon (Not commenting on CO or CO2 since I have no idea quantifiable on that). 

At least according to published claims by Origo and most propane stove manufacturers, an Origo burner on wide open, produces a little more heat than the typical small propane burner, but not as much as the larger burners sometimes fit to 3 and 4 burner propane stoves. In actual testing, using the same pot and measured amounts of water, in most cases (but not all cases) the Origo was a matter of seconds slower in bringing water to a boil than the propane burners we tested it against. I have mentioned this before on SailNet, and in fairness some have pointed out that our methods were not as scientific as they probably should have been. 

I will comment that using decent fuel with the burner wide open, the flame is definitely blue and visible. (As is a propane flame) When the 'flap' is partially closed on an Origo, the flame has yellow tinges around the edge (which I think is not the case with a properly functioning propane burner). If the yellow flame is an indicator of incomplete combustion, and incomplete combustion produces CO then partial heat Origo burners are probably producing CO. The Origo heater does not use a partial setting so I would guess it is producing minimal CO. 

On a BTU basis, propane is definitely less expensive. Alcohol has gotten pretty expensive and I have gone back to using 'hardware store' alcohol (that I buy at West Marine since it is a little cheaper at West, and is specifically marked as 'stove fuel' although TuValues carry an alcohol that is also marked as 'stove fuel' at a similar price). I did use off the shelf alcohol from a hardware store a few years back and it definitely produced more carbon (that you could see on the bottom of the pots) and had a distinct smell when it was being burned. I have not worried about the cost difference since a gallon of alcohol typically lasts me one to two seasons, and I use the alcohol for other purposes on the boat besides the stove, but also the propane systems that I have been around have needed various components replaced with a regularity that would easily surpass any cost benefit of propane over alcohol. 

Jeff


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Alcohol stoves and heaters generate a LOT of moisture.
The heat value of alcohol is only 2/3rds. that of diesel/LP, etc. (weight for weight).

The _absolute worst attribute_ of burning alcohol, is that in sunlight or bright light the (open and unpressurized) flames from alcohol are invisible ... so you dont know that youre ON FIRE until you feel the heat, unless you first see the visual 'heat turbulence' from the invisible FIRE/flames. 
LP or diesel is much safer. 
In my long time sailing avocation, Ive treated/attended two very badly 'critically' (facial) burned boaters who didnt see nor realize the invisibility of alcohol flames in sunlight/bright light during 'flare-ups' .... both at Still Pond anchorage on the Ches. 
Ditto another, once when 'working' as pit crew during sprint car racing during a pit stop methanol 're-fill' - lost the damn car and nearly the driver who was totally unaware of the invisible flames from a stupid 'fuel spill'.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

miatapaul said:


> Biggest issue with the Orgo heater that I have seen reported is that they produce a LOT of moisture, so they will aggravate condensation. It is also unventilated so if the boat is sealed up and perhaps has shrink wrap on it, will increase carbon monoxide levels.
> 
> As far as the stove goes, they are very good, but don't get as hot as a propane stove. Pressurized alcohol stoves are the ones that have a bad reputation and will flair up. Fuel can be an issue, but you would have to go through a lot of alcohol before paying for a propane install. So as long as your expectation is not that of a commercial stove you should be well served by an Orgo stove. Good stuff.


I still have a pressurized alcohol stove, a Kenyone alcohol/electric combination. I have never had a problem with the stove and have no plan to ever replace it. The item I HAVE had to use a freaking fire extinguisher on was the el-cheapo POS propane Coleman catalytic heater which flared up and had to be extinguished before it blew up. DON'T use one of those on a boat. They are garbage. I was just lucky the thing did not go up in a ball of propane fire! Had an extinguisher not been right there, I would have had to just get out and wait for the explosion. I hate propane for boats and believe it should be banned from use on one.

Yes, in DIRECT sunlight the alcohol flame is invisible. Once you know that, it's not an issue.

I also have a 60s vintage Shipmate kero pressurized cabin heater with a typical "blue flame" Primus burner that I'm rebuilding right now. You can still get parts for both these old and reliable heating appliances which were manufactured before the world started building stuff that disintegrates before your eyes.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

smurphny said:


> I still have a pressurized alcohol stove, a Kenyone alcohol/electric combination. I have never had a problem with the stove and have no plan to ever replace it. The item I HAVE had to use a freaking fire extinguisher on was the el-cheapo POS propane Coleman catalytic heater which flared up and had to be extinguished before it blew up. DON'T use one of those on a boat. They are garbage. I was just lucky the thing did not go up in a ball of propane fire! Had an extinguisher not been right there, I would have had to just get out and wait for the explosion. I hate propane for boats and believe it should be banned from use on one.
> 
> Yes, in DIRECT sunlight the alcohol flame is invisible. Once you know that, it's not an issue.
> 
> I also have a 60s vintage Shipmate kero pressurized cabin heater with a typical "blue flame" Primus burner that I'm rebuilding right now. You can still get parts for both these old and reliable heating appliances which were manufactured before the world started building stuff that disintegrates before your eyes.


Well I believe it was one of those heaters that sailingdog lost his boat to. Personally I would not use any source of unventilated flame, catalyzed or not. Especially those portable heaters with the exposed flame and easy to knock over. Seems to be a disaster in the making. A properly installed and maintained propane system on the other hand is not at all dangerous. It does need vigilant maintenance though. It would be interesting to see stats on cause of non electrical fires, though there are not many pressurized alcohol in use anymore so I doubt you can get a very useful comparison. I do know pressurized alcohol stoves used to be said be a major cause of boat fires, and the only two factors I hear much about now are gasoline, and the major one, electrical.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

To me, propane on a boat is more potentially dangerous than any of the other fuels. Just the fact that it will settle into the lowest area it can find is enough to raise doubt in my mind about whether the stuff belongs on a boat at all. The odor additive helps but every joint and valve is a potential catastrophic leak. Just my opinion but I would never have a propane system on a boat. 

The little catalytic heater that malfunctioned developed some sort of internal leak with no prior warning and went up like a torch in my hands. I dropped it via a reflex action because flames were shooting out of the damned thing, grabbed an extinguisher and put it out in a matter of maybe 10 seconds. That's another scary aspect of propane, its high pressurized energy if something malfunctions, the flame shooting out and possibility of the container exploding.


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

PitApe said:


> Alcohol stoves and heaters do add to the moisture inside the boat if used on a continuous basis, but probably no more so than the moisture your own breath and perspiration. As a short-term/occasional heater the added moisture is no big deal.


Anything burning that doesn't vent outside will do that to one degree or another. It's just noticeable with propane, CNG, alcohol because those DON'T typically have that venting, while diesel and wood furnaces do.


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## PitApe (Feb 28, 2015)

hellsop said:


> Anything burning that doesn't vent outside will do that to one degree or another. It's just noticeable with propane, CNG, alcohol because those DON'T typically have that venting, while diesel and wood furnaces do.


Exactly.


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## lumelind (Jun 4, 2010)

Allegro said:


> What I've found, after several stove uses, is that if the cabin is all closed up (it's been chilly up on Lake Superior in May), after 10-15 minutes of operation of one burner on the alcohol stove, the carbon monoxide level goes from zero up to about 45-60 ppm. This isn't enough to sound the alarm on the detectors, the manufacturer says that at a level of 70 ppm, the alarm will sound after 60-240 minutes. The Consumer Product Safety Commission says most people will not have any symptoms from prolonged exposure to carbon monoxide levels up to 70 ppm. Of course "not have any symptoms" isn't the same as "there are no ill effects on your health".
> 
> The alcohol stove produced a little bit of odor, but not too bad. And it either diminished over time or we got used to it.


I observed the same problem. In a closed boat Origo burners produce 30-50 ppm CO reading in 10+ minutes of burning. What is worse, it will eventually (after 1/2 year or so) contaminate the CO detector to the point that it starts alarming instantly, when battery is connected even in fresh air. I went through two CO detectors this way until I finally bought one with display and started looking for culprit.

Now this may not necessarily be CO that the detector is reading.

According to manufacturer's instructions CO detectors are cross sensitive to alcohol fumes, excessive moisture, hydrogen (batteries being charged), hydro-carbon particles, etc. It's really a rather long list and a lot of it is quite common in a boat.

In fact installation instructions say that CO detector should not be installed within 20 feet of any burning source or cooking facility. Or it will produce false alarm and shorten the life of detector.

This is a tall order in a small sailboat with galley in the center.

On the other hand, even, if this 60 ppm that detector is showing is not CO, it is something else that you probably don't want to breathe either.

So my plan is to install CO detector to as far as I can from galley to the front of the cabin, and add some kind of ventilation on top of my stove to pull cooking fumes and moisture outside of cabin.

Meanwhile just open all hatches, when cooking.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

In 50+ plus years of messing around with boats, both for pleasure and professionally, alcohol stoves are by far responsible (well those operating them are, anyway) for more boat fires than any other fuel.
I ran one for 5.5 years sailing the SoPac and it was a pain to have to preheat before cooking, even for just a pot of coffee. The alcohol was often difficult to obtain, so I ended up carrying a 26 gallon drum on deck to fill when I could find it.
I wouldn't consider any cooking fuel except propane. A properly installed propane cooking system is perfectly safe, simple, clean and the gas is available most everywhere.
If you are worried about propane explosions, do the math on the number of explosions versus the number of propane stoves in use in the marine industry and I think you'll find that the danger is incredibly low, statistically.
Of course, if you or one of your fellow sailors are terribly accident prone, then a generator and electric cooking may be in your future.


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## lumelind (Jun 4, 2010)

capta said:


> In 50+ plus years of messing around with boats, both for pleasure and professionally, alcohol stoves are by far responsible (well those operating them are, anyway) for more boat fires than any other fuel.
> I ran one for 5.5 years sailing the SoPac and it was a pain to have to preheat before cooking, even for just a pot of coffee. The alcohol was often difficult to obtain, so I ended up carrying a 26 gallon drum on deck to fill when I could find it.
> I wouldn't consider any cooking fuel except propane. A properly installed propane cooking system is perfectly safe, simple, clean and the gas is available most everywhere.
> If you are worried about propane explosions, do the math on the number of explosions versus the number of propane stoves in use in the marine industry and I think you'll find that the danger is incredibly low, statistically.
> Of course, if you or one of your fellow sailors are terribly accident prone, then a generator and electric cooking may be in your future.


I think the fire hazards are associated with the older pressurized alcohol stoves. Any fuel pressurized is a fire hazard. The Origo stoves are not pressurized, and work instead on wick principle. They are just beautiful in their simplicity. There are no pipes, no fittings, and the only moving part is the lid that is mechanically as simple as it gets. There is no pre-heating with Origo stove. Turn the knob, light, cook. Same as propane stove.

I agree that propane seems to be more universal fuel for some reason. And it's probably reasonably safe given proper installation. The problem is that this 'proper installation' could be extremely hard to achieve in older boat that does not have correctly designed propane locker built in.

ABYC A.1 lists about 18 requirements for propane installation. When I bought my boat, it had old crappy propane stove installed, and when I finally got around to check the tank installation, it was breaking 16 out of these 18 requirements. After a lot of research I came to conclusion that proper propane locker was not feasible in the current deck and cockpit design of my boat. It's not easy to find a spare location above water line that is airtight, easily inspect-able, with top opening from deck, bottom draining outside hull etc.

So I gave up and went with Origo alcohol stove. And other than the fact that it drives CO detector nuts, I love it.

I also think that in principle alcohol is far superior to propane as stove fuel on a cruising boat(other than price and availability outside US) because:

1. It's not pressurized
2. The spills can be easily neutralized with water.
3. It can be transported almost in any container.
4. If you run out in anchorage, you could borrow a cup from boat next to you. Try to borrow a cup of propane!
5. It's renewable fuel that in principle can be produced in any location on earth with relatively simple process from almost any organic material.
6. It can also be used as cleaner, solvent, etc.

The only drawback to alcohol is that due to peoples tendency to consume it for inebriation, it's production and distribution is strictly controlled and/or forbidden in many localities. And probably for the same reason price is often higher than it should be.


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## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

I love my origo stove.

Here is a recent post I did when the subject came up and got buried in the Production boat Limits thread. Thought some here might be interested in the fire extinguishing experiment.

By the way, I have a tiny pressurized by heat backpacking stove. The pressure does make it harder to put out. Non pressurized is easy. I also experimented with the camp stove trying to burn high potency rum and rubbing alcohol. The water content ruined the burn ability. Since alcohol mixes readily with water, water will safely cool, dilute, and extinguish the fire.



> Took a page out of Maine Sail's experiment book...
> 
> I used a 9 inch aluminum pie plate and poured stove alcohol in it, then swirled a loosely crumpled paper towel in it to soak and represent a curtain or whatever - not sure why one would be soaked.
> 
> ...


It's on the thread at:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruis...6-production-boats-limits-12.html#post3166626


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Some difference between ethel,methyl. denatured alcohol and methyl hydrate for different purposes .


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